< 1271808010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A coalition is fairly simple. A few parties simply decide to act in concert to further their collective interests. < 1271808020 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it completely informal? < 1271808040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so, but let me check before I make a fool of myself. < 1271808076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271808081 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia makes it seem pretty formal. Like, in Sweden, there's the Government coalition and the Opposition coalition, each formed of a certain set of parties. < 1271808100 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though they're actually called the Alliance for Sweden and the Red-Greens.) < 1271808127 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's called "tradition". < 1271808143 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually they're semiformal < 1271808145 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1271808158 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A government is usually considered a coalition if they include ministers from multiple parties < 1271808182 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, what does "a government" refer to? < 1271808188 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the people running the country < 1271808199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka cabinet < 1271808208 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Various appointend ministers, including the Prime Minister. < 1271808208 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the parliament include some people in the government and some people not in it? < 1271808211 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes it refers to the cabinet < 1271808221 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A parliament appoints these ministers. < 1271808228 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not necessarily < 1271808244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: My apologies. < 1271808253 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Canada, for instance, the PM is appointed by the Queen (though this is usually delegated to the Governor-General), and the PM appoints the cabinet < 1271808259 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: in norway at least, any parliament members who join the cabinet get replaced < 1271808264 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: apologies? < 1271808270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am speaking from an American's knowledge of parliamentary systems is all. < 1271808276 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, no worries < 1271808279 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're varied enough as is < 1271808282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no overlap < 1271808284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I even know a thing about it is probably exceptional. :P < 1271808346 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is not sure if "vice representatives" is the right word for that
< 1271808361 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, the US government isn't that far from a parliamentary system if you consolidate the PM and head of state into one office (the president) < 1271808376 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271808383 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and add a restriction that members of the legislative houses cannot be members of the government < 1271808395 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like having the head of state and the head of government be the same person. < 1271808431 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the head of government is directly involved in the legislative bodies, then yes, I'd say it's a bad idea < 1271808446 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in the US for instance, the President has no power within Congress < 1271808460 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Vice President does. :P < 1271808466 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271808473 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: um i think the right of parliament to _sack_ the cabinet is an essential part of the definition of "parliamentary". at least it was when that right was forced through that norway's system became known as "parliamentarism" < 1271808494 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the Vice President is also President of the Senate and, thus, has a tie-breaker vote. < 1271808513 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the VP is just weird < 1271808527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The President has a few other roles than just that. He is also head of the military, among other things... < 1271808551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks for a full list...
< 1271808552 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the VP has no other official roles than to be the President of the Senate and the POTUS' successor, IIRC < 1271808561 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, that's all he has. < 1271808565 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders political systems.
< 1271808570 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-166-170-162.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271808610 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders whether he likes this whole separate branches thing.
< 1271808612 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I've never heard that definition, but I see that argument. Do note, however, that many parliaments cannot directly sack the cabinet; the PM will usually resign as PM and thus dissolve the cabinet if the parliament shows a lack of confidence, though < 1271808630 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what happens if a vote of confidence goes through? < 1271808676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well sacking the cabinet ~= sacking the prime minister with no confidence, in norway anyway < 1271808738 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A vote of /no/ confidence is just a motion saying that the parliament (e.g. the majority of elected representatives, and thus, in theory, the majority of the people) do not believe the government can run the country (hence the term 'no confidence'). It has no formal power, but carries the expectation that the government resign. If they didn't, the parliament would simply block all progress... < 1271808739 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...until the head of state was forced to dismiss the government and either dissolve the parliament and call an election, or form an alternate government that will have the confidence of the house < 1271808752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly norway isn't representative of everything. for example in our system neither the head of state nor the pm can dissolve parliament, like in many others (btw i read on wp pakistan recently abolished this right) < 1271808776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/recently/just/ < 1271808831 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the norwegian right of making no confidence votes was informal for over a hundred years, btw, just recently put into the constitution < 1271808834 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1271808839 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's neat < 1271808848 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I recommend http://www2.parl.gc.ca/procedure-book-livre/Document.aspx?sbdid=7C730F1D-E10B-4DFC-863A-83E7E1A6940E&sbpidx=1&Language=E&Mode=1 < 1271808857 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was originally forced through by threatening impeachment, essentially) < 1271808935 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are other varied mechanisms for dealing with crises of government. For instance, in Australia, if the Commons and (elected) Senate disagree sitting over a critical matter, such as the budget, then they have a joint session and if they still can't come to an agreement, both houses are simultaneously dissolved and sent to an election. < 1271809023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm or was the impeachment actually done, i'm vague on this < 1271809027 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Wait, you guys threaten impeachment for valid causes? < 1271809027 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa. < 1271809039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Here*, the only impeachable offense is a blowjob! < 1271809044 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1271809058 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Receiving one, that is. < 1271809062 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i'm not sure it was actually valid that one time, it was a _political_ threat < 1271809072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1271809073 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's very rarely used < 1271809095 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, yeah. I think if the President gave a blowjob, the entire right wing would just have a heart attack and die. < 1271809113 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Portland's mayor is still in office :P < 1271809126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*President*. < 1271809134 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, *not Portland* < 1271809150 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1271809154 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"During the constitutional struggle in the last half of the 19th century impeachment became vital following the case against the Selmer's Cabinet in 1883 and 1884, concerning the veto rights of the King in matters of the constitution. Prior to this case, impeachment was the only way for parliament to dismiss a member of the cabinet; after 1884 Norway got a system of parliamentarism, and parliament could dismiss a member of cabinet through a majority v < 1271809173 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The DR800 is X11 and GTK+-based, so it's stupidly easy to port things to it :) < 1271809181 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, it's also OpenEmbedded-based. < 1271809192 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to Wikipedia: "A parliament is a legislature, especially in those countries whose system of government is based on the Westminster system modeled after that of the United Kingdom." < 1271809318 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Glee. < 1271809341 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Also they have a Qemu-based image for emulating it, which even emulates the screen refresh slowness. < 1271809346 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ported GTK+ nethack to it :P < 1271809380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"After the constitutional battle was over,[clarification needed] there was only one case, where Prime Minister Abraham Berge and six members of his cabinet were found not guilty in 1927. Since then impeachment has not been used, and is no longer considered part of the political game." < 1271809538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That is a thing of beauty. < 1271809637 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: good show < 1271809648 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf... sometimes I just want to stab someone... someone honestly voted against C-470? < 1271809767 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: C-470? < 1271809818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fixes that up a bit
< 1271809818 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: a bill to make it so that charities with massive executive kickbacks can be deregistered by the government. < 1271809935 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You mean someone could possibly think that was a bad idea? < 1271809945 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's exactly what I mean < 1271809954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF. < 1271809962 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely < 1271809967 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we < 1271809975 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*we'll get to see who when they do an actual vote tomorrow < 1271810155 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how exciting! < 1271810857 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's kick out the guy who voted against C-470, eh? < 1271810924 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1271810935 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quiet, you American :P < 1271810966 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bit thin-skinned that one, eh < 1271810997 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1271811007 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beh < 1271811009 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, something I don't like about the United States is that Congress isn't elected by nationwide popular vote; instead, each seat is individually elected by a state. < 1271811036 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you end up with people in the federal government representing states instead of the entire nation. < 1271811080 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's not obvious how to elect a body of hundreds of individuals via popular vote in any way other than dividing the populace. < 1271811109 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well israel manages < 1271811114 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271811120 0 :nooga!~nooga@188.74.72.61 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271811133 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do parliamentary systems do it? I sort of get the idea that each person votes for a party, and the number of seats the party gets is proportional to the amount of the popular vote they get. < 1271811161 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :approximately yes < 1271811176 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :close < 1271811179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are several ways of doing the actual accounting < 1271811187 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most frequently, it's done by region < 1271811195 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with different rounding behavior < 1271811214 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each region elects a single representative by some form of majority < 1271811219 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like in your country < 1271811227 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww. < 1271811229 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my mention of israel is because iirc they're a rare country _not_ to divide by regions) < 1271811239 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this can lead to disparity between total popular vote and actual representation < 1271811280 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: um that's not proportional representation < 1271811374 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in norway we divide into regions (counties), but each region has _several_ representatives, chosen proportionally within that region. in addition there are a number of extra seats for the whole country, divided proportionately according to the "left over" votes for the whole country < 1271811392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the number of extra seats is currently also == number of counties) < 1271811404 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet those details matter < 1271811474 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Interesting. In Canada, the ridings are reevaluated regularly to match population trends < 1271811481 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the details certainly matter, because the extra seats comes with a cutoff. the party venstre last year came _just_ under the cutoff and so got only one, directly elected seat. < 1271811489 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*come < 1271811515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the party leader himself lost his seat, and resigned. < 1271811539 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory, each riding is supposed to have roughly equal population within a province (old and stupid laws lead to disparity between provinces; damn Quebec) < 1271811668 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um they got 2 seats, apparently :D < 1271811769 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: norway also has disparity between counties, leading to rural ones getting higher representation < 1271811798 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's disparity between counties? < 1271811821 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently iirc, number of seats depends not just on population, but also area < 1271811823 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: when the number of people electing a representative is not the same for all counties < 1271811874 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get how people can get interested in politics outside a formal system < 1271811986 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Because it affects our lives < 1271812089 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: We also have a rural-urban disparity that comes about due to inconvenience, as organizing an election in a larger riding is more work and money. The requirement is that any riding have population no more than 25% the average in that province < 1271812197 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curing sicknesses affects peoples lives more directly, but not everyone is a doctor < 1271812199 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm < 1271812206 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess everyone should learn cpr tho < 1271812217 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe i've been wrong all these year < 1271812217 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1271812274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt that rural areas have *quite* as much influence as in the US, though. < 1271812435 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: A major problem with elected representation is the lack of actual understanding of the process < 1271812443 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't contribute! < 1271812499 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i let python choose who i vote for < 1271812513 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271812523 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I note Bush as an example of why you should have an understanding of politics. < 1271812526 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And actually vote. < 1271812542 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw thanks mostly to that cutoff effect, norway's current coalition government, while having a majority of _seats_, did not actually have a majority of votes. < 1271812547 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :notice i don't actually believe wars can happen < 1271812548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*The man actually won in 2004*. < 1271812564 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: You don't? < 1271812566 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1271812574 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But we've been at war for all of your life. < 1271812597 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the Korean War has yet to end.) < 1271812600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have our own version of that bush-gore case :D < 1271812603 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't know that, but in any case i'm not entirely sure you're having any sort of war now < 1271812608 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1271812611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1271812653 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i know of that iraq thing, but i consider it trivia, not something that's actually true < 1271812669 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because people wouldn't go to war, that'd be stupid < 1271812672 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iraq is a defacto war, but not dejure. < 1271812686 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't mean that < 1271812690 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to understand i'm insane < 1271812694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this aspect < 1271812695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also. The US has people who think that war is a wonderful thing. < 1271812710 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally speaking i'm told i'm the sanest guy here < 1271812716 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namely, one and a half political parties. < 1271812730 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've met people who think that < 1271812736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(out of two) < 1271812741 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna participate in warring and stuff < 1271812758 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a true believer will not care about evidence < 1271812767 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The US nearly *worships at the shrine of war*. < 1271812772 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1271812785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We spend a trillion dollars on it each and every year. < 1271812797 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We are, quite frankly, fucking mad for this, but *this is what we do*. < 1271812856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw i found proof i'm not racist < 1271812862 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was watching the cleveland show < 1271812870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and cleveland dresses up as a white guy < 1271812877 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and his wife is like WTF < 1271812892 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i actually didn't notice < 1271812901 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had to watch is a few times to see what was different < 1271812937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe i'd notice if a white guy painted his face black < 1271812957 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blackface is fairly noticable. < 1271812994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it looks like a fucking stupid stereotypical display, rather than actually looking like melanin-having skin. < 1271813002 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that i think about it, it seems likely that i would go WTF < 1271813024 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm right what if someone just had an incredible tan < 1271813040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That just makes you look like a douche. :P < 1271813130 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at some point i actually didn't know which people i knew wore glasses, but i think my brain is growing because i seem to remember which people do now < 1271813221 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well nowadays i actually consciously try to observe my surroundings all the time because i've gotten tired of not remembering if i have curtains < 1271813272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank god i stepped in and ended all the boring grown-up talk < 1271813274 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1271813276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about my language < 1271813295 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did someone find the computablenessity class < 1271813317 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me relink... www.vjn.fi/oklopol/toi.py < 1271813345 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be obvious, but i don't know which way < 1271814749 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1271814764 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone have a link to ais523's Tic-Tac-Toe in MS Paint? < 1271815554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Thy language is insufficiently Anglo-Frisian. < 1271815556 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try again. < 1271815957 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ? < 1271815993 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, here we go < 1271815993 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filebin.ca/tesmth/OANDX.BMP < 1271816006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what < 1271816012 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, or not < 1271816018 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i write the spec in finnish or something? < 1271816044 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't mean to < 1271816160 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks english < 1271816168 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to have to ask for an elaboration < 1271816367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Your language itself should be more Anglo-Frisian. :P < 1271816381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DEMAND ANGLO-FRISIAN GRAMMAR OF SOME SORT < 1271816443 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i see i see < 1271816452 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but aren't most esolangs non-eng-fri < 1271816487 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ang < 1271816510 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm just being silly is all. < 1271816520 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the case now < 1271816529 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: BTW, nice job on having an Anglo-Frisian esolang. < 1271816531 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should go to sleep < 1271816536 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Often is. < 1271816554 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's what I do? < 1271816568 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ORK. < 1271816572 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Figgered :P < 1271816575 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you meant IRP. < 1271816590 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRP is only Anglo-Frisian in some implementations. :) < 1271816934 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/yscQ2.png ais523 made this < 1271817436 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271817515 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271817661 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271818182 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1271818456 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-52-11.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271818582 0 :c0vert!~ryan@CPE00222d1ddd41-CM00222d1ddd3d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271818640 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Huh. Is that the perfect game, or not? < 1271818778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271818800 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It is not < 1271818834 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the image cannot lose, but it can quite easily not make a winning move < 1271818886 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas. < 1271819060 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone want to make an esolang to make describing and understanding the circuitry easy? < 1271819069 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wireworld. < 1271819098 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a great idea, Sgeo < 1271819218 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1271819285 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-33-139.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271819321 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Engineer of the People < 1271819353 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1271819538 0 :c0vert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271821137 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Engineer of the People is a flawed game; it does not distinguish between 0 and Z. < 1271821295 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't realize that it was something that exists, rather than just a name coppro blurted out. < 1271821333 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Z? < 1271821341 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :High impedance. < 1271821367 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that mean low current? I know little about actual circuitr < 1271821385 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um < 1271821393 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ideally, high impedance means that no current flows. < 1271821396 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know 0 about actual circuitry. How am I supposed to play? < 1271821419 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1271821430 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the water analogy... < 1271821432 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is this supposed to matter? < 1271821438 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there's a tutorial < 1271821454 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is a vacuum; it tries to suck up water. 1 is a faucet; it tries to spit out water. Z is a wall; it refuses to admit water in either direction. < 1271821470 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1271821480 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1271821480 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A logic gate reads the incoming pressures. A vacuum has low pressure, a faucet has high pressure, and a wall has undefined pressure. < 1271821568 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z isn't very often useful; since logic gates just read pressures, you usually want to use the things that have defined pressures. < 1271821634 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it can be useful in implementing, say, an OR gate with many inputs. Say you have 64. You can use a circuit element that turns each input into either 1 or Z, and simply attach all the outputs together. < 1271821668 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Further, you can attach a 0 to all those outputs, but put a resistor in between. < 1271821719 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if all the inputs are 0, those are translated to lots of Zs, so the 0 you just attached takes over the output. < 1271821736 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If at least one input is 1, though, it will overwhelm that 0, because that 0 is behind a resistor and the 1 is not. < 1271822678 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271822968 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I wonder if it's possible to build a computer that computes entirely using flood fill. < 1271822981 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1271822991 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1271822997 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing about a flood fill is that as each computing element is used, it's destroyed. < 1271823034 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes and no < 1271823055 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you lose the original element, but may gain a new one < 1271823062 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(alternatively you may just destroy it) < 1271823091 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.. that does give me an interesting idea for an esolang though. < 1271823113 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm, once two differently-colored regions are joined, they can never become unjoined. < 1271823114 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271823126 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And joining of differently-colored regions is the only thing that can possibly be useful for computing. < 1271823167 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1271823230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time-travel of regions fixes that. < 1271823230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:D < 1271823242 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to have a flood fill loop infinitely? I doubt it < 1271823257 0 :aschueler!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271823261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time travel. < 1271823266 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always wondered if you could use time travel to reverse entropy. < 1271823272 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1271823276 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There, now I don't wonder that any more. < 1271823279 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^that question feels similar to "That bus does have a way to go in reverse, right?" that I actually asked IRL < 1271823519 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parallel flood fill! < 1271823542 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with different colors racing < 1271823552 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: But time travel is the reversal of entropy in this setup. :P < 1271823589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that could be done as a CA < 1271823598 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When time goes backwards, entropy, alas, still goes forwards. < 1271823613 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you used a deterministic algorithm, you could have two separate floodfills running in a loop a la wireworld < 1271823617 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each cell has a color, + a hidden color which it'll turn into itself i neighboring < 1271823626 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goes forwards from the point of time that has been returned to, yes. < 1271823638 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is, however, less entropy at that time than there was before leaving. < 1271823666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it has no neighbors of the hidden color, it shuts off < 1271823671 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*if < 1271823705 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think our terminology has broken down. < 1271823774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wioll haven breaken down < 1271823848 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders how entropy reversal would work.
< 1271823887 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the future, and there's too much entropy there, so you go back in time to when there wasn't so much entropy, but all that lack-of-entropy is already being used by someone else. < 1271824491 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... the Internet should switch from EST to UTC < 1271824523 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :entropy is a statistical phenomenon, though! < 1271824685 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION didn't know "the Internet" used EST
< 1271824972 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I live in Michigan, and I am not on EST. < 1271824982 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor is anyone I know. < 1271825912 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1271827753 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-23-59.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271827802 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1271827804 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1271828054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1271828462 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1271830177 0 :dhave!~root@lsu3.vcn.bc.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1271830789 0 :dhave!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1271830851 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: brb < 1271830966 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1271831025 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271832070 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Many sites update at 12 PM EST < 1271832091 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, he left < 1271832576 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1271833514 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1271833749 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271833783 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-13-14.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271834741 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271834953 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1271835306 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1271836148 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271836799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1271836800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1271837494 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1271838961 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271840279 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271840882 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1271842155 0 :Rugxulo!~user@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271842179 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, it's official, silly AMD64 cpu doesn't like self-modifying code ;-) < 1271842201 0 :Adrian^L!adrian@phalse.2600.COM JOIN :#esoteric < 1271842222 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :benchmark #2 sped up by 10x just by using true variables (instead of modifying two ADD instructions) < 1271842262 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:25.33 (2 1/2 mins.) vs. 28.30 (1/2 min.) < 1271842265 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, that's not 10x < 1271842272 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you get the idea ;-) < 1271842284 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure this will help my silly P4 also < 1271842304 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, 5x is quite shocking o_O < 1271842341 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's re-decoding everything instead of relying on cache < 1271842349 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Self-modifying code has fallen quite badly out of fashion, I believe. < 1271842370 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily, the faster way only wastes four extra bytes ;-) < 1271842397 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but seriously, there's a big difference between "unpopular" and "sucks big time" < 1271842432 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it didn't seem to hurt my 586 at all ... then again, I haven't tested the "new" version yet < 1271842445 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a bit of self-modification (change of jump target) in a DS thing; it worked just fine on DeSmuME's ARM emulation thing, but on the real hardware the jump target just wouldn't change; my guess is you need to do something different than just a normal write to invalidate instruction caches. < 1271842464 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: How far was the modification < 1271842472 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some Intel cpus (but not all) require "jmp $+2" < 1271842490 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole file is (was?) only 1014 bytes ;-) < 1271842490 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1271842503 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intel's manuals say that you should be at least a page away, IIRC < 1271842519 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in 4096 bytes? < 1271842555 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly, I didn't write this, just hacked at it heavily, so I personally wouldn't have used self-modifying code, but I didn't know it hurt *that* bad! < 1271842584 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew the P4 was a weird bastard, just didn't think AMD64 would be as sensitive also < 1271842589 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"... on separate 4-KByte pages or on separate aligned 1-KByte subpages." < 1271842638 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"avoid writing to a code page in the same 1-KByte subpage that is being executed or fetching code in the same 2-KByte subpage of that is being written." < 1271842656 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't affect all processors as badly, though < 1271842665 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then stuff gets worse if you have multiple processors working there. < 1271842678 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does say "H impact" for this stuff. < 1271842718 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5x slowdown here :-/ < 1271842721 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "try to do it all at once" - lots of small modifications are a no-go. < 1271842740 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every direction change is (was) self-modifying < 1271842746 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271842755 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a good way to kill performance :-) < 1271842768 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still faster than official BEF 2.21 ;-) < 1271842792 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course ff3 seems to slaughter it, but he's smart, me not :-P < 1271842821 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "About NetHack: the intensity of its time, at xerox parc. izchak contributed greatly to the carpet, where he appears as a tree. a towel,..." < 1271842841 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh at izchak < 1271842867 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the "appears as a tree in a carpet" bit was funney. < 1271843022 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a bit of a p-heavy benchmark, if anyone's interested; it just needs a termination condition hacked in. It does rule 110 on a 80-cell line, but most of the time is spent because it maintains a history of 20 generations, and therefore has to move (well, copy) 80x19 playfield cells upwards one row. < 1271843085 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs a termination condition? < 1271843093 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's -98y I might be interested but it doesn't sound like it is < 1271843113 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently it just keeps going and going; for benchmarking, you'd probably like it to terminate after a set amount of generations. < 1271843133 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, actually finishing like sometime before I die would be nice :-) < 1271843134 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No, it's 93. Though it probably works in 98 interps too. Mostly I wrote it because I wanted something that looks nice in a thing that shows the playfield state; 80 cells is a bit narrow though. < 1271843198 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one guy wrote an interpreter (93) for Net/OpenBSD that was 41x25 since it "was easier for [his] terminal" :-P < 1271843202 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :93 has the problem that you can special-case for it so well that 98 interps are out of their league :-P < 1271843209 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1271843242 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what he was doing exactly, but that's a weird size < 1271843263 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, on '98 I'd just keep a count of generations in one playfield cell, but for 93 you can't really put very large numbers in there. < 1271843390 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :store it in several cells as BCD, then :-) < 1271843474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, ff3 segfaults on it after 1061 generations. I fancy I 'p' outside the playfield at some point; I'm not very careful with that. < 1271843492 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271843513 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at least it didn't need a termination condition ;-) < 1271843548 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run until you crash (like Win95 ... 57 days or whatever it was) < 1271843658 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it seems to p at (89,1) once, then afterwards at (80,0) and (161,1) repeatedly, but that's maybe after the (89,1) p breaks it. < 1271843687 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps your moving generation is overwriting the copy code? < 1271843748 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shouldn't; it starts the copy on row 5 and moves downwards. And anyway I'd assume that to kick in rather early.) < 1271843862 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately with -DTRACE it seems it generates a bit too much output before getting to the crashy part; after 6 generations, the trace output is already 17 megabytes. < 1271843988 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pastebin it and I'll take a look if you're desperate < 1271844000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like a stack overflow, actually; my stack is 1024 elements by default. < 1271844009 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must've forgotten to discard some number somewhere. < 1271844011 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds very close to 1016 < 1271844015 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, 1061 < 1271844159 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there was a leftover 80 in the stack. Fixed now. < 1271844193 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1024 elements should be enough for anyone" < 1271844524 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Running about 64*64*64 generations with ff3 here takes ~32 seconds; that's reasonable for benchmarking. And you can of course decrease the numbers if you like. The code is at http://pastebin.com/WtrAcs8K < 1271844548 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It ,s out the stuff it computes; you may want to >/dev/null or just blank those bits of code that do it. < 1271844575 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The ":," on line 3 and "55+," on line 4.) < 1271844611 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is line 25 required? < 1271844644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that depends. It's the initial state. < 1271844660 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't put in anything, it's the all-zeros thing, and rule 110 on that is I think pretty uninteresting. < 1271844670 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1271844695 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will do just as many operations, though, so in that sense it doesn't matter. < 1271844788 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The beginning of line 5 lists the new cell state (_ = 0, # = 1) indexed by 0bXYZ, where X is the right neighbour, Y the old state of the cell and Z the left neighbour; so it's not limited to rule 110. < 1271844793 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm using the "old" befi that self-modifies, so it may be slower than usual < 1271844823 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the record, I'm no mathematician, so rule 110 is Greek to me ;-) < 1271844831 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110 perhaps. < 1271844846 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(will waste more cpu cycles, heh) < 1271844852 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads anyway
< 1271844878 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should've probably put the "new state for center cell" values on line 5 in the canonical order like they are in the wiki-page. < 1271845151 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1271845206 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271845220 0 :Rugxulo!~user@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271845406 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just for aesthetics, flipped those things: http://pastebin.com/Zr83drK9 -- now the line 5 beginning bits are indexed by the same values as in the wikipedia article. (It's still the reverse of the table there, because they've been numbered 111, 110, .., 001, 000, but I use that three-bit number as the column on line 5.) < 1271845508 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1271845547 0 :Rugxulo!~user@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271845576 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1271845597 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still running < 1271845604 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if 128x128 would break it
< 1271845623 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you mean that program, it shouldn't. < 1271845634 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It won't use more than the 80x25 block, though. < 1271845635 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it certains take more than 32 secs. here ;-) < 1271845713 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to cut down the time to 1/8th, you can change the three @s on line 1 to spaces, and the two "@"s to " "s on line 4; but not the final @, that's for actually terminating. :p < 1271845724 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That should make it compute 32*32*32 generations instead of 64*64*64.) < 1271845770 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I could make it ask for the number of generations in the beginning, and keep that at the bottom of the stack. Except that I haven't implemented & in ff3. :p < 1271845790 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack_cell read_number(void) < 1271845790 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ < 1271845790 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return 0; < 1271845790 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1271845805 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not exactly correct. But a good approximation! < 1271845879 0 :Rugxulo`!~user@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271845889 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's correct for TRDS in a past time < 1271845926 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Insofar as pretty much any other behaviour is correct, anyway < 1271845977 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271845984 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ping < 1271846017 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :timeout < 1271846039 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't sure this thing will ever end
< 1271846098 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/xtKNrC6W if you want a version that asks for the number of generations at the beginning. With ff3 you'll need to hardcode the number you want in read_number, though. :p < 1271846113 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you forget that other interpreters are dirt slow ;-) < 1271846145 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, that's why you should tune the parameter to something suitable. < 1271846282 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1000 takes 12.03 secs < 1271846329 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that *is* slow. Does it seem to work right? < 1271846404 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3000 (when redirected to NUL) takes 23.08 secs. < 1271846409 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prints lines < 1271846411 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess so < 1271846418 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, original finished finally ;-) < 1271846443 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befi.com 2l "two ell" (1014 bytes, self-modifying) takes 26:37.25 (26 mins.) < 1271846464 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was with no output < 1271846471 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :original 64*64*64 version < 1271846600 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, trying again with "faster" (no self-modify ... well, almost) version < 1271846634 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keep in mind that befi isn't multi-threaded or multi-core aware < 1271846647 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, but I bet your Glibc does some stuff behind the scenes (cheaters, heh) < 1271846703 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hopes it's 5x faster
< 1271846708 0 :Rugxulo`!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Rugxulo < 1271846891 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not done yet :-/ < 1271846909 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a laptop, so it's not super fast or anything < 1271847008 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, I wonder why Deewiant has no signed multiply test in Mycology < 1271847014 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, finally something where -DBOUNDARY_TRACKING slows things down: http://pastebin.com/wZPiSLAG < 1271847026 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably the "test for boundaries" thing in p. < 1271847036 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This program p's a lot. < 1271847078 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 secs. (10%), not as dramatic as you implied ;-) < 1271847095 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1271847107 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :done! :-) < 1271847121 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:07.58 (8 mins.) so much faster now w/o self-modifying movement crud < 1271847146 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still slower than ff3, but much improved ;-) < 1271847197 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ~ 3x speedup this time < 1271847271 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, no congrats? ;-) < 1271847312 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elation and jubilation! Whoo! < 1271847343 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, I was hoping more from -DNO_SELF_MODIFY than just http://pastebin.com/wvXReqEK < 1271847427 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what cpu again? Athlon64? < 1271847435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is my work-workstation. < 1271847452 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8400 @ 3.00GHz < 1271847475 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Core 2 is usually said to be pretty smart, so (hopefully) it doesn't penalize as badly as older models < 1271847483 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, 4 secs. faster IS significant < 1271847526 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it (src, dest) was probably > 4 kb apart anyways < 1271847529 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With -DNO_SELF_MODIFY the p implementation doesn't check for boundary changes and doesn't change the code-space, just the playfield "text". < 1271847554 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not about self-modification in ff3 itself; that's always a bit too tricky with plain C. < 1271847604 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: ... because I assume you're not implementing things in assembly? :-P < 1271847622 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1271847630 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean Core 2 assumes? < 1271847633 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re. no signed multiply test in Mycology < 1271847648 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you assumed WRONG! muahahahahaha < 1271847663 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of three (well, four if you count RISC) assembly B93 interpreters < 1271847677 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/RISC/RISC OS/ < 1271847696 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Do you know of the TI-86 calculator one that's done in z80 assembly? It's very nice; has a debugger and all if I recall correctly. < 1271847717 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't, actually, probably 'cause I don't have a TI-86 :-P < 1271847727 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how big is it? < 1271847743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if it's anywhere in the interwebs nowadays, and I sure don't have it in my calculator either. < 1271847752 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION only vaguely remembers playing Pac-Man and Tetris on his TI-82 or such ...
< 1271847766 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate that good things disappear < 1271847841 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll see if archive.org remembers; it was on mooz's kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux page. < 1271847850 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, seems GCC only benchmarks against P4, Core2, and PPC < 1271847859 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew they had good P4 support, but seriously, they should test others too :-( < 1271847880 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the RISC OS one is 1024 bytes, I think < 1271847885 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was called "befunge86" or "bef86", which is a bit misleading name, since it sounds like a suspiciously early variant of the language. < 1271847895 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :others are big only because of OS alignment requirements (Win32, *BSD) < 1271847901 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.5k and 8k, respectively < 1271847939 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :128x32 playfield, 8-bit stack, unsigned numbers (except for `); but it has a-f hex-pushing and single-shot stringmode ' stolen from -98. < 1271848009 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately I don't think archive.org has saved the actual program. Trying to check if the page mentions the size; readme didn't. < 1271848040 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsigned numbers except for compare ... how so? < 1271848150 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it means / and % do unsigned division. < 1271848162 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure about input/output. < 1271848186 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.archive.org/web/20061205024750/http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/befunge.html has screenshots, though archive.org's so slow you may have to wait a bit. < 1271848217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 86p file seems to be 3024 bytes; few bytes of that is overhead. < 1271848249 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also his Algol-60 Befunge interpreter there. < 1271848250 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should test a Javascript interpreter with your rule 110 thingy, they've sped those up a lot in recent browsers < 1271848317 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, that's quite obscure itself ;-) < 1271848362 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We had some sort of campaign of doing obscure-ish languages; I did two in FORTRAN. And one in Forth. < 1271848384 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Doing" above means "doing a befunge-93 interp in". < 1271848448 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been looking for a Forth one in vain < 1271848479 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine might be a bit incomplete, and very unidiomatic Forth; it was among the first bits of Forth I wrote. Not that I'm very fluent yet either, but better. < 1271848501 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have that home computer offline again, otherwise I'd paste it. < 1271848538 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :screenshots of Bef86 finally appeared ;-) < 1271848577 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :font is a little blocky in places (hard to read) < 1271848606 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a 128x64 pixel screen, that limits it a bit. < 1271848645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can compare his tiny-ti86-font to mine at http://zem.fi/rfk86/screens.html < 1271848661 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you happen to have a suitable browser, you'll even get the site itself rendered in that font. < 1271848684 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(What joy.) < 1271848689 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, it the whole "FuzzooBizzarWoo" crud related to Intercal in some way? < 1271848727 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I know of, no. It was a one-off posting in some newsfroup, I think without any replies or anything. < 1271848819 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did that rfk86 font embedding happen to work for you? < 1271849042 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see the screenshots, if that's what you mean < 1271849119 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole site should be using the same font. < 1271849126 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen that work in ff3.5, but not much else. < 1271849152 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should also work with some specific IE version, but I'm not sure about that. < 1271849163 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean did the browser use the font? no < 1271849163 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try again in another one < 1271849200 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a great loss if it doesn't want to work. < 1271849245 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to work in Firefox, yes < 1271849253 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chrome? either no or still loading < 1271849259 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IE 8? apparently not < 1271849310 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :None of these obsolete Ubuntu interpid browsers I have at work (Firefox 3.0.19, Opera 9.63) show it right. It might work in Opera 10; for IE I've gone through the trouble of converting the font to EOT (embeddable opentype) format that according to some page somewhere should work, but maybe not. < 1271849339 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mozilla Firefox 3.5+, Opera 10+[12], Safari 3.1+[13] and Google Chrome 4.0+[14] support linking to industry-standard TrueType (TTF) and OpenType (OTF) fonts." < 1271849354 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Opera works < 1271849365 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, Opera 10 < 1271849395 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I mostly just wanted an excuse to play with truetype font files. < 1271849420 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, Chrome works < 1271849420 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, IE 8 apparently doesn't work < 1271849443 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course ;-) < 1271849489 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. Well, it might something so simple that my server doesn't send the correct content-type for the .eot file. < 1271849905 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welp, guess I'll head on down the dusty trail ... < 1271849937 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be back later, I suppose < 1271849944 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: doy < 1271850565 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-23-210.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1271850773 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.231.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1271851117 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1271854150 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1271856958 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-166-170-162.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271860128 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1271860275 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271861352 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271862042 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271863908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1271864399 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1271866080 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271866964 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271867156 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1271867329 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1271867566 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1271867590 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-109-208.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271867778 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1271867916 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1271868102 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1271868441 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1271868494 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-195-63.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271869782 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1271870229 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1271870827 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-203-201.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1271871495 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do people here have an understanding of statistics? < 1271871914 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1271871990 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Those who don't understand statistics are doomed to become such." -- Old Jungle Saying < 1271872394 0 :MigoMipo!kvirc@94.191.160.138.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1271872437 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"those who mention statistics are doomed to hear a joke about it" < 1271872459 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1271872460 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1271872494 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are multiple < 1271872503 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MANY < 1271872508 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very jokeable subject < 1271872515 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or sayingable < 1271872536 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1271873509 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the topic has been a matter of discussion here... http://bayimg.com/image/camjbaaca.jpg [full disclosure disclaimer: got it from another #channel, as usual] < 1271873672 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://aasi.ebm.fi/data/images/0000006346.jpg I got a bigger version < 1271873898 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes, yours is bigger, but isn't it a bit vulgar to start bragging about the size of it like that? < 1271873949 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if you're a prude < 1271874053 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find that funny but it seems like it might be some sort of reference? < 1271874074 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One does not simply walk into Mordor. < 1271874089 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought so < 1271874111 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes it significantly less funny < 1271874160 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i just looked at your small one, fizzie < 1271874740 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271875318 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Statistics: Where calculations can be mathematically valid but the results can be total maliscous garbage... :-) < 1271875347 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Statistics: like bullshit with a statistically greater chance of being related with reality. < 1271875351 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:D < 1271875379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1271875456 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1271875566 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Statistically signaficant != really signaficant. Just check the figures for how much cutting salt intake lowers blood pressure (average). < 1271875635 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1271875806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay this is strange... < 1271875818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a latex document, the first table figure gets number 2 < 1271875827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err table float < 1271875835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first figure float gets number 1 as expected < 1271875920 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just have large enough sample and arbitrarily small differences become statistically signaficant... :-) < 1271875950 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: That's a funny statement taken as a response to AnMaster. < 1271875994 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Is there figure float 2 too? < 1271876026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, well yes, there are 9 figure float and 5 table floats. On and 3 "long tables" (more than a page long, not in a float) < 1271876040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, and there are 4 figure floats before the first table float < 1271876081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, I have looked for patterns unsuccessfully. < 1271876167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also *looks for a package on ctan to do Karnaugh diagrams* < 1271876170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh look there is one < 1271876179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why am I so completely not surprised ;) < 1271876278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck I think I need ais to figure this one out < 1271876361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't \usepackage it, you \input it < 1271876364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems strange < 1271876484 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can most likely fix that table numbering by forcibly setting the counter, but that's more of a workaround than a real fix; doesn't tell you why it happens. < 1271876503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed... < 1271876518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, any idea about this \input kvmacros vs. \usepackage[foo] thingy? < 1271876568 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really; it might be just that they haven't quite gotten the hang of making real LaTeX packages. < 1271876629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems rather old. 2002 < 1271876703 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Matching /^2/ means it can't be *old*, just.. not lately updated. < 1271877500 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271877690 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1271878474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the horror < 1271878481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from a latex package: < 1271878483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The macros are to be processed by m4, and evaluate to drawing < 1271878483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : commands in the pic "little language," < 1271878501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, have you seen anything quite as awful before? < 1271878513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note this is a different package than the one above) < 1271878535 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, now... it *could* be using the C preprocessor there. < 1271878546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, was looking at the README for http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/graphics/circuit_macros/ < 1271878585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for this I think dia might be better < 1271878607 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It's *TeX8. < 1271878614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They could be using *TeX* for that. < 1271878640 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1271878660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, my point < 1271878662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1271878670 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but he asked about awful. < 1271878683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I can't find the box style gate icons in dia < 1271878684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strange < 1271878691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in Xor being a box with =1 in it < 1271878700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to the weird shaped icons for it < 1271879262 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1271879309 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :mixxx|adam_d < 1271880482 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Toi < 1271880494 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look i added a SERIOUS entry < 1271880534 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've got some SERIOUS balls, adding a SERIOUS entry in there. < 1271880541 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excuse me if it's not up to the high esolang standards, i had to write it twice because i did some failinjg. < 1271880543 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*failing < 1271880569 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the great thing about wikis is i can upload any crap i want because someone else can fix it < 1271880576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AMIRITE < 1271880600 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also