00:00:10 <pikhq> A coalition is fairly simple. A few parties simply decide to act in concert to further their collective interests.
00:00:20 <uorygl> Is it completely informal?
00:00:40 <pikhq> I think so, but let me check before I make a fool of myself.
00:01:21 <uorygl> Wikipedia makes it seem pretty formal. Like, in Sweden, there's the Government coalition and the Opposition coalition, each formed of a certain set of parties.
00:01:40 <uorygl> (Though they're actually called the Alliance for Sweden and the Red-Greens.)
00:02:07 <pikhq> That's called "tradition".
00:02:23 <coppro> Usually they're semiformal
00:02:38 <coppro> A government is usually considered a coalition if they include ministers from multiple parties
00:03:02 <uorygl> Ah, what does "a government" refer to?
00:03:08 <coppro> the people running the country
00:03:28 <pikhq> uorygl: Various appointend ministers, including the Prime Minister.
00:03:28 <uorygl> Does the parliament include some people in the government and some people not in it?
00:03:31 <coppro> sometimes it refers to the cabinet
00:03:41 <pikhq> A parliament appoints these ministers.
00:04:04 <pikhq> coppro: My apologies.
00:04:13 <coppro> In Canada, for instance, the PM is appointed by the Queen (though this is usually delegated to the Governor-General), and the PM appoints the cabinet
00:04:19 <oerjan> uorygl: in norway at least, any parliament members who join the cabinet get replaced
00:04:30 <pikhq> I am speaking from an American's knowledge of parliamentary systems is all.
00:04:39 <coppro> they're varied enough as is
00:04:44 <pikhq> That I even know a thing about it is probably exceptional. :P
00:05:46 * oerjan is not sure if "vice representatives" is the right word for that
00:06:01 <coppro> actually, the US government isn't that far from a parliamentary system if you consolidate the PM and head of state into one office (the president)
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00:06:23 <coppro> and add a restriction that members of the legislative houses cannot be members of the government
00:06:35 <uorygl> I don't like having the head of state and the head of government be the same person.
00:07:11 <coppro> If the head of government is directly involved in the legislative bodies, then yes, I'd say it's a bad idea
00:07:26 <coppro> but in the US for instance, the President has no power within Congress
00:07:40 <uorygl> The Vice President does. :P
00:07:53 <oerjan> coppro: um i think the right of parliament to _sack_ the cabinet is an essential part of the definition of "parliamentary". at least it was when that right was forced through that norway's system became known as "parliamentarism"
00:08:14 <pikhq> Yes, the Vice President is also President of the Senate and, thus, has a tie-breaker vote.
00:08:47 <pikhq> The President has a few other roles than just that. He is also head of the military, among other things...
00:09:11 * pikhq looks for a full list...
00:09:12 <coppro> yeah, the VP has no other official roles than to be the President of the Senate and the POTUS' successor, IIRC
00:09:21 <pikhq> Yup, that's all he has.
00:09:25 * uorygl ponders political systems.
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00:10:10 * uorygl ponders whether he likes this whole separate branches thing.
00:10:12 <coppro> oerjan: I've never heard that definition, but I see that argument. Do note, however, that many parliaments cannot directly sack the cabinet; the PM will usually resign as PM and thus dissolve the cabinet if the parliament shows a lack of confidence, though
00:10:30 <uorygl> So what happens if a vote of confidence goes through?
00:11:16 <oerjan> coppro: well sacking the cabinet ~= sacking the prime minister with no confidence, in norway anyway
00:12:18 <coppro> A vote of /no/ confidence is just a motion saying that the parliament (e.g. the majority of elected representatives, and thus, in theory, the majority of the people) do not believe the government can run the country (hence the term 'no confidence'). It has no formal power, but carries the expectation that the government resign. If they didn't, the parliament would simply block all progress...
00:12:19 <coppro> ...until the head of state was forced to dismiss the government and either dissolve the parliament and call an election, or form an alternate government that will have the confidence of the house
00:12:32 <oerjan> admittedly norway isn't representative of everything. for example in our system neither the head of state nor the pm can dissolve parliament, like in many others (btw i read on wp pakistan recently abolished this right)
00:13:51 <oerjan> the norwegian right of making no confidence votes was informal for over a hundred years, btw, just recently put into the constitution
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00:14:08 <coppro> uorygl: I recommend http://www2.parl.gc.ca/procedure-book-livre/Document.aspx?sbdid=7C730F1D-E10B-4DFC-863A-83E7E1A6940E&sbpidx=1&Language=E&Mode=1
00:14:17 <oerjan> (it was originally forced through by threatening impeachment, essentially)
00:15:35 <coppro> There are other varied mechanisms for dealing with crises of government. For instance, in Australia, if the Commons and (elected) Senate disagree sitting over a critical matter, such as the budget, then they have a joint session and if they still can't come to an agreement, both houses are simultaneously dissolved and sent to an election.
00:17:03 <oerjan> hm or was the impeachment actually done, i'm vague on this
00:17:07 <pikhq> oerjan: Wait, you guys threaten impeachment for valid causes?
00:17:19 <pikhq> *Here*, the only impeachable offense is a blowjob!
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00:17:38 <Gregor> Receiving one, that is.
00:17:42 <oerjan> pikhq: i'm not sure it was actually valid that one time, it was a _political_ threat
00:17:53 <oerjan> and it's very rarely used
00:18:15 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, yeah. I think if the President gave a blowjob, the entire right wing would just have a heart attack and die.
00:18:33 <Gregor> pikhq: Portland's mayor is still in office :P
00:19:14 <oerjan> "During the constitutional struggle in the last half of the 19th century impeachment became vital following the case against the Selmer's Cabinet in 1883 and 1884, concerning the veto rights of the King in matters of the constitution. Prior to this case, impeachment was the only way for parliament to dismiss a member of the cabinet; after 1884 Norway got a system of parliamentarism, and parliament could dismiss a member of cabinet through a majority v
00:19:33 <Gregor> pikhq: The DR800 is X11 and GTK+-based, so it's stupidly easy to port things to it :)
00:19:41 <Gregor> Oh yeah, it's also OpenEmbedded-based.
00:19:52 <coppro> According to Wikipedia: "A parliament is a legislature, especially in those countries whose system of government is based on the Westminster system modeled after that of the United Kingdom."
00:22:21 <Gregor> pikhq: Also they have a Qemu-based image for emulating it, which even emulates the screen refresh slowness.
00:22:26 <Gregor> I ported GTK+ nethack to it :P
00:23:00 <oerjan> "After the constitutional battle was over,[clarification needed] there was only one case, where Prime Minister Abraham Berge and six members of his cabinet were found not guilty in 1927. Since then impeachment has not been used, and is no longer considered part of the political game."
00:25:38 <pikhq> Gregor: That is a thing of beauty.
00:27:28 <coppro> wtf... sometimes I just want to stab someone... someone honestly voted against C-470?
00:30:18 <coppro> pikhq: a bill to make it so that charities with massive executive kickbacks can be deregistered by the government.
00:32:15 <pikhq> coppro: You mean someone could possibly think that was a bad idea?
00:32:25 <coppro> pikhq: that's exactly what I mean
00:32:55 <coppro> *we'll get to see who when they do an actual vote tomorrow
00:47:37 <uorygl> Let's kick out the guy who voted against C-470, eh?
00:48:55 <coppro> quiet, you American :P
00:49:26 <oerjan> bit thin-skinned that one, eh
00:50:09 <uorygl> You know, something I don't like about the United States is that Congress isn't elected by nationwide popular vote; instead, each seat is individually elected by a state.
00:50:36 <uorygl> So you end up with people in the federal government representing states instead of the entire nation.
00:51:20 <uorygl> I guess it's not obvious how to elect a body of hundreds of individuals via popular vote in any way other than dividing the populace.
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00:52:13 <uorygl> How do parliamentary systems do it? I sort of get the idea that each person votes for a party, and the number of seats the party gets is proportional to the amount of the popular vote they get.
00:52:59 <oerjan> there are several ways of doing the actual accounting
00:53:07 <coppro> most frequently, it's done by region
00:53:15 <oerjan> with different rounding behavior
00:53:34 <coppro> each region elects a single representative by some form of majority
00:53:39 <coppro> just like in your country
00:53:49 <oerjan> (my mention of israel is because iirc they're a rare country _not_ to divide by regions)
00:53:59 <coppro> this can lead to disparity between total popular vote and actual representation
00:54:40 <oerjan> coppro: um that's not proportional representation
00:56:14 <oerjan> in norway we divide into regions (counties), but each region has _several_ representatives, chosen proportionally within that region. in addition there are a number of extra seats for the whole country, divided proportionately according to the "left over" votes for the whole country
00:56:32 <oerjan> (the number of extra seats is currently also == number of counties)
00:56:44 <oklopol> i bet those details matter
00:57:54 <coppro> oerjan: Interesting. In Canada, the ridings are reevaluated regularly to match population trends
00:58:01 <oerjan> the details certainly matter, because the extra seats comes with a cutoff. the party venstre last year came _just_ under the cutoff and so got only one, directly elected seat.
00:58:35 <oerjan> the party leader himself lost his seat, and resigned.
00:58:59 <coppro> in theory, each riding is supposed to have roughly equal population within a province (old and stupid laws lead to disparity between provinces; damn Quebec)
01:01:08 <oerjan> um they got 2 seats, apparently :D
01:02:49 <oerjan> coppro: norway also has disparity between counties, leading to rural ones getting higher representation
01:03:18 <oklopol> what's disparity between counties?
01:03:41 <oerjan> currently iirc, number of seats depends not just on population, but also area
01:03:43 <coppro> oklopol: when the number of people electing a representative is not the same for all counties
01:04:34 <oklopol> i don't get how people can get interested in politics outside a formal system
01:06:26 <coppro> oklopol: Because it affects our lives
01:08:09 <coppro> oerjan: We also have a rural-urban disparity that comes about due to inconvenience, as organizing an election in a larger riding is more work and money. The requirement is that any riding have population no more than 25% the average in that province
01:09:57 <oklopol> curing sicknesses affects peoples lives more directly, but not everyone is a doctor
01:10:06 <oklopol> i guess everyone should learn cpr tho
01:10:17 <oklopol> so maybe i've been wrong all these year
01:11:14 <pikhq> I doubt that rural areas have *quite* as much influence as in the US, though.
01:13:55 <coppro> oklopol: A major problem with elected representation is the lack of actual understanding of the process
01:14:59 <oklopol> i let python choose who i vote for
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01:15:23 <pikhq> I note Bush as an example of why you should have an understanding of politics.
01:15:26 <pikhq> And actually vote.
01:15:42 <oerjan> btw thanks mostly to that cutoff effect, norway's current coalition government, while having a majority of _seats_, did not actually have a majority of votes.
01:15:47 <oklopol> notice i don't actually believe wars can happen
01:15:48 <pikhq> *The man actually won in 2004*.
01:16:04 <pikhq> oklopol: You don't?
01:16:14 <pikhq> But we've been at war for all of your life.
01:16:37 <pikhq> (the Korean War has yet to end.)
01:16:40 <oerjan> so we have our own version of that bush-gore case :D
01:16:43 <oklopol> i didn't know that, but in any case i'm not entirely sure you're having any sort of war now
01:17:33 <oklopol> i mean i know of that iraq thing, but i consider it trivia, not something that's actually true
01:17:49 <oklopol> because people wouldn't go to war, that'd be stupid
01:17:52 <pikhq> Iraq is a defacto war, but not dejure.
01:18:10 <oklopol> try to understand i'm insane
01:18:15 <pikhq> Also. The US has people who think that war is a wonderful thing.
01:18:30 <oklopol> generally speaking i'm told i'm the sanest guy here
01:18:36 <pikhq> Namely, one and a half political parties.
01:18:50 <oklopol> i've met people who think that
01:19:01 <oklopol> wanna participate in warring and stuff
01:19:18 <oklopol> but a true believer will not care about evidence
01:19:27 <pikhq> The US nearly *worships at the shrine of war*.
01:19:45 <pikhq> We spend a trillion dollars on it each and every year.
01:19:57 <pikhq> We are, quite frankly, fucking mad for this, but *this is what we do*.
01:20:56 <oklopol> btw i found proof i'm not racist
01:21:02 <oklopol> was watching the cleveland show
01:21:10 <oklopol> and cleveland dresses up as a white guy
01:21:32 <oklopol> and i actually didn't notice
01:21:41 <oklopol> had to watch is a few times to see what was different
01:22:17 <oklopol> or maybe i'd notice if a white guy painted his face black
01:22:37 <pikhq> Blackface is fairly noticable.
01:23:14 <pikhq> As it looks like a fucking stupid stereotypical display, rather than actually looking like melanin-having skin.
01:23:22 <oklopol> now that i think about it, it seems likely that i would go WTF
01:23:44 <oklopol> oh hmm right what if someone just had an incredible tan
01:24:00 <pikhq> That just makes you look like a douche. :P
01:25:30 <oklopol> at some point i actually didn't know which people i knew wore glasses, but i think my brain is growing because i seem to remember which people do now
01:27:01 <oklopol> well nowadays i actually consciously try to observe my surroundings all the time because i've gotten tired of not remembering if i have curtains
01:27:52 <oklopol> thank god i stepped in and ended all the boring grown-up talk
01:28:15 <oklopol> did someone find the computablenessity class
01:28:37 <oklopol> let me relink... www.vjn.fi/oklopol/toi.py
01:29:05 <oklopol> should be obvious, but i don't know which way
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01:52:44 <Sgeo> Anyone have a link to ais523's Tic-Tac-Toe in MS Paint?
02:05:54 <pikhq> oklopol: Thy language is insufficiently Anglo-Frisian.
02:13:13 <Sgeo> Ah, here we go
02:13:13 <Sgeo> http://filebin.ca/tesmth/OANDX.BMP
02:13:38 <oklopol> did i write the spec in finnish or something?
02:16:08 <oklopol> i'm going to have to ask for an elaboration
02:19:27 <pikhq> oklopol: Your language itself should be more Anglo-Frisian. :P
02:19:41 <pikhq> I DEMAND ANGLO-FRISIAN GRAMMAR OF SOME SORT
02:20:52 <oklopol> but aren't most esolangs non-eng-fri
02:21:50 <pikhq> Yes, I'm just being silly is all.
02:22:09 <pikhq> Gregor: BTW, nice job on having an Anglo-Frisian esolang.
02:22:16 <pikhq> oklopol: Often is.
02:23:10 <pikhq> IRP is only Anglo-Frisian in some implementations. :)
02:28:54 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/yscQ2.png ais523 made this
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02:57:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: Huh. Is that the perfect game, or not?
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03:00:34 <coppro> the image cannot lose, but it can quite easily not make a winning move
03:04:20 <Sgeo> Anyone want to make an esolang to make describing and understanding the circuitry easy?
03:04:58 <Oranjer> sounds like a great idea, Sgeo
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03:08:41 <coppro> Engineer of the People
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03:38:57 <uorygl> Engineer of the People is a flawed game; it does not distinguish between 0 and Z.
03:41:35 <Sgeo> Didn't realize that it was something that exists, rather than just a name coppro blurted out.
03:42:47 <coppro> does that mean low current? I know little about actual circuitr
03:43:13 <uorygl> Ideally, high impedance means that no current flows.
03:43:16 <Sgeo> I know 0 about actual circuitry. How am I supposed to play?
03:43:50 <uorygl> In the water analogy...
03:43:52 <coppro> why is this supposed to matter?
03:43:58 <Sgeo> Oh, there's a tutorial
03:44:14 <uorygl> 0 is a vacuum; it tries to suck up water. 1 is a faucet; it tries to spit out water. Z is a wall; it refuses to admit water in either direction.
03:44:40 <uorygl> A logic gate reads the incoming pressures. A vacuum has low pressure, a faucet has high pressure, and a wall has undefined pressure.
03:46:08 <uorygl> Z isn't very often useful; since logic gates just read pressures, you usually want to use the things that have defined pressures.
03:47:14 <uorygl> But it can be useful in implementing, say, an OR gate with many inputs. Say you have 64. You can use a circuit element that turns each input into either 1 or Z, and simply attach all the outputs together.
03:47:48 <uorygl> Further, you can attach a 0 to all those outputs, but put a resistor in between.
03:48:39 <uorygl> So if all the inputs are 0, those are translated to lots of Zs, so the 0 you just attached takes over the output.
03:48:56 <uorygl> If at least one input is 1, though, it will overwhelm that 0, because that 0 is behind a resistor and the 1 is not.
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04:09:28 <uorygl> Hmm, I wonder if it's possible to build a computer that computes entirely using flood fill.
04:09:57 <uorygl> The thing about a flood fill is that as each computing element is used, it's destroyed.
04:10:55 <coppro> you lose the original element, but may gain a new one
04:11:02 <coppro> (alternatively you may just destroy it)
04:11:31 <coppro> hmm.. that does give me an interesting idea for an esolang though.
04:11:53 <uorygl> Mm, once two differently-colored regions are joined, they can never become unjoined.
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04:12:06 <uorygl> And joining of differently-colored regions is the only thing that can possibly be useful for computing.
04:13:50 <pikhq> Time-travel of regions fixes that.
04:14:02 <Sgeo> Is there a way to have a flood fill loop infinitely? I doubt it
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04:14:26 <uorygl> I've always wondered if you could use time travel to reverse entropy.
04:14:36 <uorygl> There, now I don't wonder that any more.
04:14:39 <Sgeo> ^^that question feels similar to "That bus does have a way to go in reverse, right?" that I actually asked IRL
04:19:02 <oerjan> with different colors racing
04:19:12 <pikhq> uorygl: But time travel is the reversal of entropy in this setup. :P
04:19:49 <oerjan> hm that could be done as a CA
04:19:58 <uorygl> When time goes backwards, entropy, alas, still goes forwards.
04:20:13 <coppro> If you used a deterministic algorithm, you could have two separate floodfills running in a loop a la wireworld
04:20:17 <oerjan> each cell has a color, + a hidden color which it'll turn into itself i neighboring
04:20:26 <pikhq> Goes forwards from the point of time that has been returned to, yes.
04:20:38 <pikhq> There is, however, less entropy at that time than there was before leaving.
04:21:06 <oerjan> and if it has no neighbors of the hidden color, it shuts off
04:21:45 <uorygl> I think our terminology has broken down.
04:22:54 <oerjan> wioll haven breaken down
04:24:08 * uorygl ponders how entropy reversal would work.
04:24:47 <uorygl> It's the future, and there's too much entropy there, so you go back in time to when there wasn't so much entropy, but all that lack-of-entropy is already being used by someone else.
04:34:51 <coppro> hmm... the Internet should switch from EST to UTC
04:35:23 <coppro> entropy is a statistical phenomenon, though!
04:38:05 * oerjan didn't know "the Internet" used EST
04:42:52 <uorygl> I live in Michigan, and I am not on EST.
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09:29:39 <Rugxulo> okay, it's official, silly AMD64 cpu doesn't like self-modifying code ;-)
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09:30:22 <Rugxulo> benchmark #2 sped up by 10x just by using true variables (instead of modifying two ADD instructions)
09:31:02 <Rugxulo> 02:25.33 (2 1/2 mins.) vs. 28.30 (1/2 min.)
09:31:12 <Rugxulo> well, you get the idea ;-)
09:31:24 <Rugxulo> I'm pretty sure this will help my silly P4 also
09:31:44 <Rugxulo> still, 5x is quite shocking o_O
09:32:21 <Rugxulo> I guess it's re-decoding everything instead of relying on cache
09:32:29 <fizzie> Self-modifying code has fallen quite badly out of fashion, I believe.
09:32:50 <Rugxulo> luckily, the faster way only wastes four extra bytes ;-)
09:33:17 <Rugxulo> but seriously, there's a big difference between "unpopular" and "sucks big time"
09:33:52 <Rugxulo> it didn't seem to hurt my 586 at all ... then again, I haven't tested the "new" version yet
09:34:05 <fizzie> I had a bit of self-modification (change of jump target) in a DS thing; it worked just fine on DeSmuME's ARM emulation thing, but on the real hardware the jump target just wouldn't change; my guess is you need to do something different than just a normal write to invalidate instruction caches.
09:34:24 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: How far was the modification
09:34:32 <Rugxulo> some Intel cpus (but not all) require "jmp $+2"
09:34:50 <Rugxulo> the whole file is (was?) only 1014 bytes ;-)
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09:35:03 <Deewiant> Intel's manuals say that you should be at least a page away, IIRC
09:35:55 <Rugxulo> honestly, I didn't write this, just hacked at it heavily, so I personally wouldn't have used self-modifying code, but I didn't know it hurt *that* bad!
09:36:24 <Rugxulo> I knew the P4 was a weird bastard, just didn't think AMD64 would be as sensitive also
09:36:29 <Deewiant> "... on separate 4-KByte pages or on separate aligned 1-KByte subpages."
09:37:18 <Deewiant> "avoid writing to a code page in the same 1-KByte subpage that is being executed or fetching code in the same 2-KByte subpage of that is being written."
09:37:36 <Rugxulo> it doesn't affect all processors as badly, though
09:37:45 <Deewiant> And then stuff gets worse if you have multiple processors working there.
09:37:58 <Deewiant> It does say "H impact" for this stuff.
09:38:41 <Deewiant> And "try to do it all at once" - lots of small modifications are a no-go.
09:39:00 <Rugxulo> every direction change is (was) self-modifying
09:39:15 <Deewiant> That's a good way to kill performance :-)
09:39:28 <Rugxulo> still faster than official BEF 2.21 ;-)
09:39:52 <Rugxulo> of course ff3 seems to slaughter it, but he's smart, me not :-P
09:40:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: "About NetHack: the intensity of its time, at xerox parc. izchak contributed greatly to the carpet, where he appears as a tree. a towel,..."
09:41:07 <fizzie> Yes, the "appears as a tree in a carpet" bit was funney.
09:43:42 <fizzie> I have a bit of a p-heavy benchmark, if anyone's interested; it just needs a termination condition hacked in. It does rule 110 on a 80-cell line, but most of the time is spent because it maintains a history of 20 generations, and therefore has to move (well, copy) 80x19 playfield cells upwards one row.
09:44:45 <Rugxulo> needs a termination condition?
09:44:53 <Deewiant> If it's -98y I might be interested but it doesn't sound like it is
09:45:13 <fizzie> Currently it just keeps going and going; for benchmarking, you'd probably like it to terminate after a set amount of generations.
09:45:33 <Rugxulo> yes, actually finishing like sometime before I die would be nice :-)
09:45:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: No, it's 93. Though it probably works in 98 interps too. Mostly I wrote it because I wanted something that looks nice in a thing that shows the playfield state; 80 cells is a bit narrow though.
09:46:38 <Rugxulo> one guy wrote an interpreter (93) for Net/OpenBSD that was 41x25 since it "was easier for [his] terminal" :-P
09:46:42 <Deewiant> 93 has the problem that you can special-case for it so well that 98 interps are out of their league :-P
09:47:22 <Rugxulo> I don't know what he was doing exactly, but that's a weird size
09:47:43 <fizzie> Meh, on '98 I'd just keep a count of generations in one playfield cell, but for 93 you can't really put very large numbers in there.
09:49:50 <Rugxulo> store it in several cells as BCD, then :-)
09:51:14 <fizzie> Hrm, ff3 segfaults on it after 1061 generations. I fancy I 'p' outside the playfield at some point; I'm not very careful with that.
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09:51:53 <Rugxulo> well at least it didn't need a termination condition ;-)
09:52:28 <Rugxulo> run until you crash (like Win95 ... 57 days or whatever it was)
09:54:18 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to p at (89,1) once, then afterwards at (80,0) and (161,1) repeatedly, but that's maybe after the (89,1) p breaks it.
09:54:47 <Rugxulo> perhaps your moving generation is overwriting the copy code?
09:55:48 <fizzie> It shouldn't; it starts the copy on row 5 and moves downwards. And anyway I'd assume that to kick in rather early.)
09:57:42 <fizzie> Unfortunately with -DTRACE it seems it generates a bit too much output before getting to the crashy part; after 6 generations, the trace output is already 17 megabytes.
09:59:48 <Rugxulo> pastebin it and I'll take a look if you're desperate
10:00:00 <fizzie> Looks like a stack overflow, actually; my stack is 1024 elements by default.
10:00:09 <fizzie> I must've forgotten to discard some number somewhere.
10:02:39 <fizzie> Yes, there was a leftover 80 in the stack. Fixed now.
10:03:13 <Rugxulo> "1024 elements should be enough for anyone"
10:08:44 <fizzie> Running about 64*64*64 generations with ff3 here takes ~32 seconds; that's reasonable for benchmarking. And you can of course decrease the numbers if you like. The code is at http://pastebin.com/WtrAcs8K
10:09:08 <fizzie> It ,s out the stuff it computes; you may want to >/dev/null or just blank those bits of code that do it.
10:09:35 <fizzie> (The ":," on line 3 and "55+," on line 4.)
10:10:44 <fizzie> Well, that depends. It's the initial state.
10:11:00 <fizzie> If you don't put in anything, it's the all-zeros thing, and rule 110 on that is I think pretty uninteresting.
10:11:35 <fizzie> It will do just as many operations, though, so in that sense it doesn't matter.
10:13:08 <fizzie> The beginning of line 5 lists the new cell state (_ = 0, # = 1) indexed by 0bXYZ, where X is the right neighbour, Y the old state of the cell and Z the left neighbour; so it's not limited to rule 110.
10:13:13 <Rugxulo> well, I'm using the "old" befi that self-modifies, so it may be slower than usual
10:13:43 <Rugxulo> for the record, I'm no mathematician, so rule 110 is Greek to me ;-)
10:13:51 <fizzie> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110 perhaps.
10:14:06 <Rugxulo> (will waste more cpu cycles, heh)
10:14:38 <fizzie> Should've probably put the "new state for center cell" values on line 5 in the canonical order like they are in the wiki-page.
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10:23:26 <fizzie> Just for aesthetics, flipped those things: http://pastebin.com/Zr83drK9 -- now the line 5 beginning bits are indexed by the same values as in the wikipedia article. (It's still the reverse of the table there, because they've been numbered 111, 110, .., 001, 000, but I use that three-bit number as the column on line 5.)
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10:26:44 * Rugxulo wonders if 128x128 would break it
10:27:03 <fizzie> If you mean that program, it shouldn't.
10:27:14 <fizzie> It won't use more than the 80x25 block, though.
10:27:15 <Rugxulo> well it certains take more than 32 secs. here ;-)
10:28:33 <fizzie> If you want to cut down the time to 1/8th, you can change the three @s on line 1 to spaces, and the two "@"s to " "s on line 4; but not the final @, that's for actually terminating. :p
10:28:44 <fizzie> (That should make it compute 32*32*32 generations instead of 64*64*64.)
10:29:30 <fizzie> Actually I could make it ask for the number of generations in the beginning, and keep that at the bottom of the stack. Except that I haven't implemented & in ff3. :p
10:29:50 <fizzie> stack_cell read_number(void)
10:30:05 <fizzie> That's not exactly correct. But a good approximation!
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10:31:29 <Deewiant> That's correct for TRDS in a past time
10:32:06 <Deewiant> Insofar as pretty much any other behaviour is correct, anyway
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10:33:59 * Rugxulo` isn't sure this thing will ever end
10:34:58 <fizzie> http://pastebin.com/xtKNrC6W if you want a version that asks for the number of generations at the beginning. With ff3 you'll need to hardcode the number you want in read_number, though. :p
10:35:13 <Rugxulo`> fizzie, you forget that other interpreters are dirt slow ;-)
10:35:45 <fizzie> Yes, well, that's why you should tune the parameter to something suitable.
10:38:49 <fizzie> Wow, that *is* slow. Does it seem to work right?
10:40:04 <Rugxulo`> 3000 (when redirected to NUL) takes 23.08 secs.
10:40:18 <Rugxulo`> BTW, original finished finally ;-)
10:40:43 <Rugxulo`> befi.com 2l "two ell" (1014 bytes, self-modifying) takes 26:37.25 (26 mins.)
10:43:20 <Rugxulo`> okay, trying again with "faster" (no self-modify ... well, almost) version
10:43:54 <Rugxulo`> keep in mind that befi isn't multi-threaded or multi-core aware
10:44:07 <Rugxulo`> not sure, but I bet your Glibc does some stuff behind the scenes (cheaters, heh)
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10:48:29 <Rugxulo> this is a laptop, so it's not super fast or anything
10:50:08 <Rugxulo> BTW, I wonder why Deewiant has no signed multiply test in Mycology
10:50:14 <fizzie> Yay, finally something where -DBOUNDARY_TRACKING slows things down: http://pastebin.com/wZPiSLAG
10:50:26 <fizzie> It's probably the "test for boundaries" thing in p.
10:50:36 <fizzie> This program p's a lot.
10:51:18 <Rugxulo> 3 secs. (10%), not as dramatic as you implied ;-)
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10:52:01 <Rugxulo> 08:07.58 (8 mins.) so much faster now w/o self-modifying movement crud
10:52:26 <Rugxulo> still slower than ff3, but much improved ;-)
10:55:12 <fizzie> Elation and jubilation! Whoo!
10:55:43 <fizzie> Hrm, I was hoping more from -DNO_SELF_MODIFY than just http://pastebin.com/wvXReqEK
10:57:15 <fizzie> This is my work-workstation.
10:57:32 <fizzie> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8400 @ 3.00GHz
10:57:55 <Rugxulo> Core 2 is usually said to be pretty smart, so (hopefully) it doesn't penalize as badly as older models
10:58:03 <Rugxulo> still, 4 secs. faster IS significant
10:58:46 <Rugxulo> it (src, dest) was probably > 4 kb apart anyways
10:58:49 <fizzie> With -DNO_SELF_MODIFY the p implementation doesn't check for boundary changes and doesn't change the code-space, just the playfield "text".
10:59:14 <fizzie> It's not about self-modification in ff3 itself; that's always a bit too tricky with plain C.
11:00:04 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: ... because I assume you're not implementing things in assembly? :-P
11:00:33 <Deewiant> Re. no signed multiply test in Mycology
11:00:48 <Rugxulo> well you assumed WRONG! muahahahahaha
11:01:03 <Rugxulo> I know of three (well, four if you count RISC) assembly B93 interpreters
11:01:36 <fizzie> Rugxulo: Do you know of the TI-86 calculator one that's done in z80 assembly? It's very nice; has a debugger and all if I recall correctly.
11:01:57 <Rugxulo> I don't, actually, probably 'cause I don't have a TI-86 :-P
11:02:23 <fizzie> I'm not sure if it's anywhere in the interwebs nowadays, and I sure don't have it in my calculator either.
11:02:32 * Rugxulo only vaguely remembers playing Pac-Man and Tetris on his TI-82 or such ...
11:02:46 <Rugxulo> I hate that good things disappear
11:04:01 <fizzie> I'll see if archive.org remembers; it was on mooz's kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux page.
11:04:10 <Rugxulo> hmmm, seems GCC only benchmarks against P4, Core2, and PPC
11:04:19 <Rugxulo> I knew they had good P4 support, but seriously, they should test others too :-(
11:04:40 <Rugxulo> the RISC OS one is 1024 bytes, I think
11:04:45 <fizzie> It was called "befunge86" or "bef86", which is a bit misleading name, since it sounds like a suspiciously early variant of the language.
11:04:55 <Rugxulo> others are big only because of OS alignment requirements (Win32, *BSD)
11:05:39 <fizzie> 128x32 playfield, 8-bit stack, unsigned numbers (except for `); but it has a-f hex-pushing and single-shot stringmode ' stolen from -98.
11:06:49 <fizzie> Unfortunately I don't think archive.org has saved the actual program. Trying to check if the page mentions the size; readme didn't.
11:07:20 <Rugxulo> unsigned numbers except for compare ... how so?
11:09:10 <fizzie> I assume it means / and % do unsigned division.
11:09:22 <fizzie> Not sure about input/output.
11:09:46 <fizzie> http://web.archive.org/web/20061205024750/http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/befunge.html has screenshots, though archive.org's so slow you may have to wait a bit.
11:10:17 <fizzie> The 86p file seems to be 3024 bytes; few bytes of that is overhead.
11:10:49 <fizzie> There's also his Algol-60 Befunge interpreter there.
11:10:50 <Rugxulo> you should test a Javascript interpreter with your rule 110 thingy, they've sped those up a lot in recent browsers
11:11:57 <Rugxulo> heh, that's quite obscure itself ;-)
11:12:42 <fizzie> We had some sort of campaign of doing obscure-ish languages; I did two in FORTRAN. And one in Forth.
11:13:04 <fizzie> "Doing" above means "doing a befunge-93 interp in".
11:14:08 <Rugxulo> I've been looking for a Forth one in vain
11:14:39 <fizzie> Mine might be a bit incomplete, and very unidiomatic Forth; it was among the first bits of Forth I wrote. Not that I'm very fluent yet either, but better.
11:15:01 <fizzie> I have that home computer offline again, otherwise I'd paste it.
11:15:38 <Rugxulo> screenshots of Bef86 finally appeared ;-)
11:16:17 <Rugxulo> font is a little blocky in places (hard to read)
11:16:46 <fizzie> It's a 128x64 pixel screen, that limits it a bit.
11:17:25 <fizzie> You can compare his tiny-ti86-font to mine at http://zem.fi/rfk86/screens.html
11:17:41 <fizzie> If you happen to have a suitable browser, you'll even get the site itself rendered in that font.
11:18:09 <Rugxulo> BTW, it the whole "FuzzooBizzarWoo" crud related to Intercal in some way?
11:18:47 <fizzie> Not that I know of, no. It was a one-off posting in some newsfroup, I think without any replies or anything.
11:20:19 <fizzie> Did that rfk86 font embedding happen to work for you?
11:24:02 <Rugxulo> I see the screenshots, if that's what you mean
11:25:19 <fizzie> The whole site should be using the same font.
11:25:26 <fizzie> I've seen that work in ff3.5, but not much else.
11:25:52 <fizzie> It should also work with some specific IE version, but I'm not sure about that.
11:26:03 <Rugxulo> you mean did the browser use the font? no
11:26:03 <Rugxulo> I'll try again in another one
11:26:40 <fizzie> It's not a great loss if it doesn't want to work.
11:27:25 <Rugxulo> it seems to work in Firefox, yes
11:27:33 <Rugxulo> Chrome? either no or still loading
11:28:30 <fizzie> None of these obsolete Ubuntu interpid browsers I have at work (Firefox 3.0.19, Opera 9.63) show it right. It might work in Opera 10; for IE I've gone through the trouble of converting the font to EOT (embeddable opentype) format that according to some page somewhere should work, but maybe not.
11:28:59 <fizzie> "Mozilla Firefox 3.5+, Opera 10+[12], Safari 3.1+[13] and Google Chrome 4.0+[14] support linking to industry-standard TrueType (TTF) and OpenType (OTF) fonts."
11:29:55 <fizzie> I think I mostly just wanted an excuse to play with truetype font files.
11:30:20 <Rugxulo> no, IE 8 apparently doesn't work
11:31:29 <fizzie> Heh. Well, it might something so simple that my server doesn't send the correct content-type for the .eot file.
11:38:25 <Rugxulo> welp, guess I'll head on down the dusty trail ...
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17:38:15 <pineapple> do people here have an understanding of statistics?
17:46:30 <fizzie> " Those who don't understand statistics are doomed to become such." -- Old Jungle Saying
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17:53:57 <oklofok> "those who mention statistics are doomed to hear a joke about it"
17:55:08 <oklofok> it's a very jokeable subject
18:11:49 <fizzie> Since the topic has been a matter of discussion here... http://bayimg.com/image/camjbaaca.jpg [full disclosure disclaimer: got it from another #channel, as usual]
18:14:32 <Deewiant> http://aasi.ebm.fi/data/images/0000006346.jpg I got a bigger version
18:18:18 <fizzie> Yes, yes, yours is bigger, but isn't it a bit vulgar to start bragging about the size of it like that?
18:20:53 <oklopol> i find that funny but it seems like it might be some sort of reference?
18:21:14 <fizzie> One does not simply walk into Mordor.
18:21:51 <oklopol> that makes it significantly less funny
18:22:40 <oklopol> also i just looked at your small one, fizzie
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18:41:58 <Ilari> Statistics: Where calculations can be mathematically valid but the results can be total maliscous garbage... :-)
18:42:27 <pikhq> Statistics: like bullshit with a statistically greater chance of being related with reality.
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18:46:06 <Ilari> Statistically signaficant != really signaficant. Just check the figures for how much cutting salt intake lowers blood pressure (average).
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18:50:18 <AnMaster> I have a latex document, the first table figure gets number 2
18:50:35 <AnMaster> the first figure float gets number 1 as expected
18:52:00 <Ilari> Just have large enough sample and arbitrarily small differences become statistically signaficant... :-)
18:52:30 <Gregor> Ilari: That's a funny statement taken as a response to AnMaster.
18:53:14 <Ilari> AnMaster: Is there figure float 2 too?
18:53:46 <AnMaster> Ilari, well yes, there are 9 figure float and 5 table floats. On and 3 "long tables" (more than a page long, not in a float)
18:54:00 <AnMaster> Ilari, and there are 4 figure floats before the first table float
18:54:41 <AnMaster> Ilari, I have looked for patterns unsuccessfully.
18:56:07 <AnMaster> also *looks for a package on ctan to do Karnaugh diagrams*
18:56:19 <AnMaster> why am I so completely not surprised ;)
18:57:58 <AnMaster> what the heck I think I need ais to figure this one out
18:59:21 <AnMaster> you don't \usepackage it, you \input it
19:01:24 <fizzie> You can most likely fix that table numbering by forcibly setting the counter, but that's more of a workaround than a real fix; doesn't tell you why it happens.
19:01:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, any idea about this \input kvmacros vs. \usepackage[foo] thingy?
19:02:48 <fizzie> Not really; it might be just that they haven't quite gotten the hang of making real LaTeX packages.
19:05:03 <fizzie> Matching /^2/ means it can't be *old*, just.. not lately updated.
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19:34:43 <AnMaster> The macros are to be processed by m4, and evaluate to drawing
19:34:43 <AnMaster> commands in the pic "little language,"
19:35:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, have you seen anything quite as awful before?
19:35:13 <AnMaster> (note this is a different package than the one above)
19:35:35 <fizzie> Well, now... it *could* be using the C preprocessor there.
19:35:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, was looking at the README for http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/graphics/circuit_macros/
19:36:25 <AnMaster> for this I think dia might be better
19:36:47 <pikhq> fizzie: It's *TeX8.
19:36:54 <pikhq> They could be using *TeX* for that.
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19:37:50 <fizzie> Yes, but he asked about awful.
19:38:03 <AnMaster> now I can't find the box style gate icons in dia
19:38:11 <AnMaster> as in Xor being a box with =1 in it
19:38:20 <AnMaster> as opposed to the weird shaped icons for it
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20:08:02 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Toi
20:08:14 <oklopol> look i added a SERIOUS entry
20:08:54 <fizzie> You've got some SERIOUS balls, adding a SERIOUS entry in there.
20:09:01 <oklopol> excuse me if it's not up to the high esolang standards, i had to write it twice because i did some failinjg.
20:09:29 <oklopol> but the great thing about wikis is i can upload any crap i want because someone else can fix it
20:10:00 <oklopol> also <math> does *not* work
20:10:44 <AnMaster> Ilari, strange but inserting a table float near the start made it have table 2 but then later skip table 2 and jump directly to table 3.
20:10:59 <oklopol> AnMaster: are you talking about my language
20:11:05 <fizzie> There must be a hidden table-like thing in there somewhere.
20:11:44 <oklopol> i read inserting as interesting
20:12:00 <AnMaster> I'm talking about spooky latex issues
20:13:52 <oklopol> i noticed that in toi.py i'd been talking about stacks all the time
20:14:20 <oklopol> hopefully you realized that was just a silly mistake and were able to write all your toi programs without problems
20:16:19 <oklopol> i never actually chose the name, toi was just the random string i named my interp to
20:16:35 <oklopol> but the whole thing is really half-assed anyway so i thought it'd be perfect
20:17:08 <oklopol> essentially just a BF derivative
20:17:21 <oklopol> with new more hip names for 'things
20:25:28 <fizzie> That looks like one of those non-tilted ^_^-style smileys.
20:26:31 <oklopol> okay say we wanted to write a condition "do this thaang iff set has an odd number of elements"
20:27:40 <oklopol> actually my failed attempt doesn't even work in the sense that i originally thought
20:27:56 <oklopol> it's not even a sensible idea
20:30:00 <oklopol> okay i dunno maybe it's just not TC
20:30:27 <fizzie> Given that you didn't get nice TeX rendering, I'd perhaps just replace those \cups and \ins with the correct characters (∪, ∈), and use plain { instead of \{; I don't think everyone has a TeX renderer in the brain.
20:30:58 <oklopol> yes but do note my remark about the great things about wikis!
20:31:21 <fizzie> I already previewed that change, but then I thought it'd be IMPUDENT to go and change it.
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20:31:50 <oklopol> no, in fact it would be very nice of you
20:32:36 <oklopol> that's how we say hello in finland
20:34:03 <oklopol> thank you, i have a lot of use for health
20:34:18 <fizzie> I did that thing, but in my font the \cup is pretty small. There's the n-ary cup, ⋃, which is generally speaking a bigger cup, but semantically wrongly there, so I went with the small cup anyway.
20:34:33 <oklopol> okay now could you also fix the computational class?
20:35:52 <fizzie> I don't think I can select a proper character to do that with a simple substitution.
20:36:05 <oklopol> Tritonio_GR: we're talking about Toi on esolang, in fact we've been talking about it all day and they say it might actually be the new LOLCODE
20:36:54 <fizzie> With only a tiny teeeensy bit of ex-aggregation there.
20:37:14 <Tritonio_GR> oklopol and the rest: i really wanna talk about it but i gotta go NOW. :-D so.... adios!
20:38:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't mediawiki have <math>?
20:38:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's an optional bit, maybe esolangs wiki doesn't have it turned on?
20:38:32 <fizzie> AnMaster: At least in preview there <math> doesn't seem to do anything.
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20:42:26 <oklopol> i have to go, but don't worry i'll answer the rest of your questions about toi when i return
20:42:49 <oklopol> remember to call 0400243514 if you have something really urgent to ask about it
20:43:00 <oklopol> i wouldn't want to stand in the way of progress
20:44:06 <fizzie> I don't think oklokloklok's a bot.
20:44:16 <fizzie> fungot: Are you a silly bot?
20:44:17 <fungot> fizzie: icon... i really need one as i have no idea
20:44:35 <fizzie> I doubt getting an icon would much help you, but I'll see if I can design one up at some point.
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21:15:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, I still haven't figured out why latex thinks there is an extra table there in the float numbering
21:17:06 <AnMaster> and now I seem to have two jumps(!?)
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21:17:40 <AnMaster> and maybe you know what could cause that
21:18:02 <AnMaster> figure float numbering okay. but table float numbering skips some numbers
21:18:09 <AnMaster> which ones depend on where I place the floats
21:18:23 <AnMaster> ais523, never had anything like that in LaTeX before?
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21:19:10 <ais523> AnMaster: look, I've missed pretty much the whole day due to sleep problems, missed a deadline as a result, and am now trying to explain to my boss
21:19:15 <ais523> your problems aren't really my top priority ATM
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23:52:26 <oerjan> oklopol: your natural printing program prints lines of .'s, right? while <>[puan] would actually print numbers instead iiuc?
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23:55:07 <oerjan> it seems like [A] is useless for passing results to the outside, and it's the only general looping construct. however a single loop can still be TC in some languages, so...
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