00:08:48 <fizzie> Positive side of a signed 32-bit int with 8 bits stolen for type tag or flags or some such. 2^23-1 is also maximum bit width for a LLVM integer type in the IR. (That's pretty wide already.)
00:10:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, well yes, it is more than enough
00:10:40 <AnMaster> and yeah I guess type tag explains it
00:10:54 <fizzie> i8388607, presumably mapped to C as "signed very very long long int".
00:11:26 <olsner> if each "long" doubles the size - signed long^23 int?
00:13:53 <AnMaster> olsner, now type that out in a pastebin
00:14:13 <AnMaster> olsner, anway, that seems too many? no?
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00:54:21 <Sgeo> Protip: If you have a disability, and mind others with disabilities finding out, don't go to my school
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01:00:31 <oerjan> pikhq: don't ask, he doesn't want us to find out
01:00:32 <Sgeo> My school just sent an email from the students with disabilities office
01:00:47 <Sgeo> They did it by putting each email address in the To: field, apparently
01:01:03 <pikhq> oerjan: Find out about... Wha?
01:01:51 * oerjan leaps gracefully from conclusion to conclusion
01:01:54 <Sgeo> pikhq, he's suggesting that everyone here has a disabilty, and since it sounded like I don't want people with disabilities finding out..
01:02:20 <Mathnerd314> no, I just have a few shady friends who like lists of email addresses
01:03:52 * Sgeo gives Mathnerd314 a list
01:04:19 <Mathnerd314> well, I'd need to track my "friends" down first
01:04:34 <oerjan> i guess they don't want you to find them either?
01:07:48 <Mathnerd314> hmm... an esolang with email addresses :-)
01:08:37 <Mathnerd314> TLD's are commands, usernames are variables, and domains get ignored
01:09:45 <Mathnerd314> not certain what actual language to embed, though
01:10:00 <Sgeo> Don't embed a pre-existing esolang!
01:10:18 <Sgeo> Make one up from scratch!
01:10:41 <Sgeo> That's a .. fairly big thing to embed
01:11:56 <oerjan> Simple Programming And Mail
01:12:50 <Mathnerd314> I could go small and just do some lambda calculus
01:13:10 <Sgeo> oerjan, when thinking the ancronym, I ommitted "And" at first
01:13:51 <oerjan> well i tried with Address, but it didn't sound good
01:14:24 <oerjan> completely out of shii
01:19:38 <Mathnerd314> not certain what to do with abuse@ webmaster@ etc.
01:20:17 <oerjan> abuse would halt the program, i think. it would mean it got caught, after all
01:21:07 <Mathnerd314> and look at the "To" field to see what to execute
01:21:36 <Mathnerd314> so if you put it on a mail server, you have to spam to send it messages :D
01:21:42 <nooga> i'm thinking about lazy grid that uses HTTP as an IPC protocol
01:22:00 <nooga> maybe it should be coded in php for extra slowness
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01:30:49 <oerjan> `translate ale jest dobry
01:37:21 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:38:16 <pikhq> Root cannot be had on that system.
01:38:29 <pikhq> libc won't let you.
01:38:36 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.22913 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1
01:38:54 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
01:41:46 <Mathnerd314> I don't see really see the point of hacking it
01:43:17 <Sgeo> Does it have backups?
01:48:35 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: sudo: command not found
01:52:08 <HackEgo> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
01:55:03 <oerjan> i've sort of been guessing that the reason HackEgo is so dog slow at the first command you run is because it's booting up a virtual machine somewhere...
01:55:40 <oerjan> Gregor: is that right?
01:56:32 <oerjan> (mind you i don't really know what i'm talking about)
01:57:02 <HackEgo> Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
01:57:10 <Gregor> oerjan: No, that's not right.
01:57:18 <Gregor> oerjan: I think it's just caching.
01:57:50 <oerjan> is it your own physical machine?
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02:23:07 <Gregor> I have rxvt on my DR800SG 8-D
02:23:14 <Gregor> Which I just got today and isn't even fully charged yet :P
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02:35:50 <Gregor> Sgeo: eInk-based reader.
02:36:14 * Sgeo misread that as elink for a few seconds
02:53:12 <oerjan> are you saying it was b-grade?
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02:54:14 <nooga> omg, it's calamari
03:01:51 <nooga> oh, in that case i'm probably going to sleep
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05:46:49 <zzo38> Where do spider webs normally emanate from the spider's body?
05:47:09 <zzo38> I can see you changed the 332 topic line again
05:47:20 <zzo38> Oranjer: OK, thanks.
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06:12:53 <zzo38> What exactly is the "end of the abdomen"
06:13:16 <zzo38> I am making more of my Wikipedia userpage now
06:14:31 <oerjan> zzo38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_anatomy
06:15:04 <zzo38> Now I have three Wikipedia pages open in three buffers
06:15:28 <oerjan> there's a nice diagram in the Internal anatomy section
06:15:48 <zzo38> Thanks, that helped
06:16:06 <oerjan> i guess you are looking for the spinnerets
06:16:45 <zzo38> Sometimes I have a lot of wikipedia pages open at once
06:17:59 <oerjan> although i've found it's much worse with tvtropes
06:19:00 <oerjan> but then that's an individual thing, some people don't get lost in tvtropes at all, or so they say
06:19:24 <zzo38> Actually the reason I have a lot of Wikipedia pages open at once is not that reason.
06:19:42 <oerjan> i recall xkcd has made comics for both sites about that problem :D
06:19:56 <oerjan> well i guess if you are actually doing _research_...
06:20:33 <oerjan> i don't recall that, a sec
06:21:35 <oerjan> http://xkcd.com/214/ and http://xkcd.com/609/
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06:23:44 <zzo38> I just played D&D today. Now I selected http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Make_Food.s and http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Remove_Hand.s as new spells, and yes the question about spiders is relevant here.
06:25:46 <oerjan> well spider silk isn't really food, although i _think_ spiders eat the old web when rebuilding
06:26:53 <oerjan> or did i just contradict myself there
06:27:10 <zzo38> That isn't what the relevance is, however.
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06:28:29 <zzo38> But thanks anyways.
06:29:43 <oerjan> wait, why would you want to cast "Remove Hand"...
06:34:44 <zzo38> I played D&D today. I used up all the webs unfortunately. But I increased experience level today and good thing I have more than 400 XP remaining because I need that much to cast a spell. Next time: I have to make Diplomacy to the beholder, and then Riichi, and also Zwischenzug.....
06:36:45 <zzo38> Do you like this??
06:37:11 <zzo38> Do you like Riichi and/or Zwischenzug?
06:37:52 <oerjan> i have only played a single session of it in my life
06:39:43 <oerjan> it was at the local gamer convention once
06:40:08 <oerjan> a dungeon crawl, i played a paladin i think
06:41:25 <oerjan> it was > 10 years ago, though
06:42:14 <zzo38> Did you have any spells/item?
06:42:23 <zzo38> How many eyes does your character have?
06:42:36 <zzo38> What other classes were the other player characters?
06:42:41 <oerjan> i am pretty sure it was a human, i don't remember that much else
06:44:39 <zzo38> I have heard of a Paladin variant class called "DM's Paladin".
06:44:45 <pikhq> 15 years ago implies AD&D. So... There's a whole lot of stuff that could've been.
06:45:02 <zzo38> In the "DM's Paladin" variant, you replace the picture of the paladin with Mother Theresa.
06:45:41 <zzo38> The "Smite Evil" ability is replaced with "Hug Evil".
06:46:04 <zzo38> At high levels, the DM's Paladin even gains the ability to rip the universe a bit sometimes, whether you are meaning to or not.
06:47:38 <zzo38> I would likely not play a paladin character unless it was the DM's Paladin variant.
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06:49:46 <zzo38> Also, maybe you didn't know, Riichi and Zwischenzug are not terms in D&D actually, anyways, but I try to do it in D&D anyways!
06:49:58 <zzo38> Riichi is in mahjong, and Zwischenzug in chess.
06:50:30 <oerjan> i don't know german chess terms
06:52:16 <zzo38> Do you know Japanese mahjong terms?
06:52:47 <oerjan> i considered that too obvious to comment on :D
06:53:20 * oerjan realizes doesn't know the norwegian term for zwischenzug either
06:53:48 <oerjan> wikipedia has no norwegian link for it
06:56:44 <oerjan> hm seems the direct translation "mellomtrekk" is used, although i don't recall it
06:57:13 <zzo38> Do you understand what it is, however? And how I might try to use in D&D?
06:58:27 <zzo38> Do you understand anything about mahjong at all?
06:59:28 <oerjan> not the real came, which iirc you have already told is not the same as the simple pair matching solitaire i've seen on pc's
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07:01:03 <oerjan> (well simple and simple, i guess that can be hard too, because of hidden pieces if nothing else)
07:01:47 <zzo38> "Riichi" is something you can call if you have closed hand, you have to bet 1000 extra points and your hand is locked, so you can no longer adjust it. If you win, you earn +1 han for riichi, unless you also make "ippatsu riichi" or "ura dora" in which case you earn more than +1 han.
07:02:35 <oerjan> oh it's a betting game
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07:03:43 <zzo38> Actually, mahjong is not really a betting game, although you do bet sometimes.
07:04:54 <zzo38> What you have to do mostly, is make a hand with four sets and one pair, and avoid the other players doing the same. You can choose which one to discard on each turn. However, if you discard the tile someone else needed the last one for their hand, you have to pay them a lot.
07:07:13 <oerjan> i don't really like games where i have to pay careful attention to what everyone else has
07:07:26 <oerjan> or even worse, might have
07:10:27 <zzo38> In Washizu Mahjong it is different, because you can see some of the tiles belonging to other players, if those tiles are transparent. (Washizu Mahjong uses both transparent tiles and opaque tiles. I have a Washizu Mahjong set.) Washizu Mahjong was invented by the fictional character Wahsizu Iwao, which was invented by Nobuyuki Fukumoto, who writes mahjong comics.
07:11:57 <oerjan> i think i'm going to bed
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10:22:19 <Axtens> just wandered over from #rosettacode to see what happens here
10:23:06 <Axtens> there are very few esolans represented on RC ... BF, Befunge ... maybe a couple others
10:59:40 <fizzie> The place has been mentioned on this channel a couple of times, but no-one seems to have been inspired enough to start mass-adding "our" languages there.
11:00:17 <fizzie> There's HQ9+, though that's bit of a joke.
11:01:02 <fizzie> Chef's an esolang too.
11:03:50 <fizzie> But not very many. Didn't check especially thoroughly there.
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11:48:58 <Axtens> did anyone get any further with the MSG language as per http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/MSG ?
11:53:29 <oklopol> a wire connects two objects, but <object> '<message>' <wire> sends to <object> using <wire>.. so what does connecting two objects mean?
11:54:11 <oklopol> and then you can just use passon to send stuff to an object without a wire
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11:56:23 <oklopol> also what's the use of creating any new objects? do they do something with the messages you send them?
11:56:38 <oklopol> we should talk about Toi instead, if you ask me
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11:59:09 <oklopod> have you seen rain fall on the surface of water?
11:59:26 <oklopod> that's just fucking awesome i stared at it for hours
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12:36:20 <oklopod> the people on the street didn't seem to see it
12:37:14 <ais523> oklopod: do you mean, onto puddles, or onto lakes? I've seen both, but the puddles more often
12:37:20 <ais523> the UK is really rainy compared to most countries...
12:37:48 <oklopod> it was a river of some sort
12:38:30 <oklopod> there were these small waves or more like ripples due to wind already, and then circles where rain fell
12:38:34 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0c5yClip4o
12:38:39 <Sgeo> Warning: Brain cells WILL die
12:38:56 <oklopod> so all sorts of stuff going on
12:39:15 <oklopod> that's the first warning about a link i ever took seriously
12:41:09 <oklopod> i'm learning all sorts of stuff
12:41:36 <oklopod> funny e=mc^2 joke in the beginning
12:42:44 <Sgeo> oklopod, I don't think it's a joke to her
12:47:45 <oklopod> so okay what she's saying is homeopathy works by curing diseases
12:48:11 <oklopod> and that physical models of the world have this concept of energy
12:51:24 <oklopod> chemistry background helpful :P
12:52:01 <oklopod> but i guess you can't argue with results
12:52:37 <oklopod> the guy's knee stopped squeaking
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14:58:31 <oklopod> you should do something about your energy state
14:58:49 <oklopod> your vibrations are totally off sync
15:00:47 <AnMaster> oklopod, if that is the pun I think it is: AUGH
15:02:18 * Sgeo doesn't get it, except in reference to the video
15:02:34 <AnMaster> Sgeo, you know what heat is physically right?
15:02:52 <Deewiant> awib 0.2 is cute: http://awib.googlecode.com/svn/builds/awib-0.2.b (announcement at http://awibiswritteninbrainfuck.blogspot.com/2010/04/announcing-awib-02.html )
15:02:55 <AnMaster> (btw I meant "a cold" as in "sick")
15:06:02 <Sgeo> "Loops known to never be entered are removed."
15:06:11 <Sgeo> It should remove all loops that are never entered
15:06:43 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I'm pretty sure that would be the same as solving the halting problem
15:07:12 * Sgeo was trying to be funny
15:07:33 <oklopod> yeah i meant it as a reference
15:08:58 <oklopod> well try grepping for reference, what could i be responding to
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15:09:53 <oklopod> i don't know why i have to be so mysterious, reference to the vid,
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15:46:30 <zzo38> I have fixed this spell: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Object_Mirrored.s
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15:51:17 <ais523> you said that in three chanels for no good reason
15:51:18 <Sgeo> ais523, my Nexus One
15:51:36 <pikhq> Hmm. Yup, 3 is the count.
15:56:09 <oklopod> i watched a few of those bush is an idiot videos so i figured it'd be fair to give obama a try too, politics is fun
15:56:27 <pikhq> It's a bit harder with Obama.
15:56:33 <pikhq> You actually have to search.
15:56:55 <pikhq> Unlike Bush, who has given the following line in a speech: "Hey, you want a taco?"
15:57:10 <pikhq> Meant it literally. He interrupted his own speech to ask that question of someone.
15:57:13 <oklopod> i dunno but these are really funny
15:58:24 <oklopod> there are fewer tho, most are just him stuttering, which isn't really surprising if you work 24/7
15:59:03 <oklopod> at least i assume presidents don't have that much free time, i have never actually been one
15:59:16 <pikhq> Bush had a lot of it.
15:59:29 <pikhq> He spent half his time in office on vacation.
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16:09:40 <oklopod> also many of these are fun mixes and not whole speeches, they don't seem to be so much about comedy as they are about mocking the stupid nigger
16:10:05 <oklopod> fun mixes being when you repeat a stupid contradictory sentence 50 times
16:10:47 <oklopod> i need to find something else to waste time on
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16:14:53 <oerjan> oklopod: seen the additions i made to the Toi page?
16:15:49 <oerjan> mainly what we talked about
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16:18:44 <oerjan> i chose the tuple representation (how much to nest x and y in {}'s) specifically for that
16:19:08 <oerjan> otherwise it would have needed to use an adjustment with one of the other algorithms
16:19:22 <oklopod> okay cool stuff, i'll have to fix the interp as soon as possible
16:19:35 <oklopod> right after i've wasted some more time
16:23:18 <oklopod> should all commands be changed to vowels?
16:23:34 <oklopod> it's not like there are programs out there that would suffer
16:24:11 <oerjan> reading is bad enough with those ('s...
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16:24:54 <oerjan> (btw i convinced myself you cannot have [A]B) commands too without ambiguity)
16:25:21 <oerjan> ([])[]([])[] can parse in two ways
16:26:38 <oklopod> now when exactly is it ambiguous, you could just disallow those cases
16:27:24 <oerjan> well you need the right combination of ('s and )'s so a [] can match in either direction
16:28:33 <oerjan> hm strictly speaking that first []) is redundant
16:29:00 <oerjan> ([]([])[] should also be ambiguous
16:29:21 <oerjan> (redundant because it can only parse that way)
16:29:53 <oklopod> but are ([]([])[] and []([])[]) the patterns that characterize it
16:30:07 <oklopod> and what would that mean exactly, for their usability
16:30:53 <oklopod> if those patterns are anywhere in a program, with anything in between that parses, then parsing is ambiguous
16:31:24 <oklopod> yeah okay the sentence was correct, but i misparsed it after typing it
16:31:55 <oerjan> well ignoring (or treating as independent) things inside the []'s and also {}'s
16:32:23 <oklopod> now what does {}) mean exactly...
16:32:37 <oerjan> i wasn't going for that :D
16:32:41 <oklopod> it's the for-each OOPS NOT THAT ONE loop
16:33:15 <oklopod> okay i'll start fixing the interp now
16:33:58 <oklopod> i mean all the commands except nesting
16:34:09 <oerjan> sounds more reasonable
16:34:56 <oklopod> r => y, p => o, and possibly i for input and p to have better semantics
16:35:19 <oklopod> and maybe n could be n still
16:35:24 <oklopod> and maybe i could buy a parrot
16:35:25 <oerjan> well except you have more that five (or sometimes six)
16:36:13 <oerjan> you're going to need finnish vowels too :D
16:36:37 <oerjan> you didn't mention . and :
16:36:58 <oklopod> oh well i thought those could be . and : too, because they print themselves so...
16:37:08 <oklopod> actually i originally thought just those two for output
16:37:18 <oklopod> but if i add bf complete output, then they become sort of
16:39:06 <oklopod> i love how the example program only prints like 6 numbers
16:40:24 <oklopod> my sets are implemented unbelievably badly
16:40:54 <oklopod> would be easy to fix by for instance using python's set :P
16:41:17 <oklopod> but i didn't feel like it because i'm gonna make some sort of optimization (the hashing thing) anyway
16:41:26 <oklopod> in the next 5 years or so.
16:41:47 <oklopod> nah won't take that long, i just added like 7 characters to toi.py
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16:47:54 <oerjan> hm both of your patterns above contain []([])[]
16:48:22 <oerjan> i _think_ anything containing that may be ambiguous
16:48:52 <oerjan> ([]) is sort of a dual to [], it can match with a [] in either direction
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16:49:49 <oerjan> except it can still happen that that ([]) doesn't match either neighboring [], but something farther away
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16:50:10 <oklopod> ...wanna write a program to actually add together two concrete numbers and print the result?
16:50:27 <oklopod> i'd like to test this thing and i'm you know a bit lazy
16:51:13 <oklopod> actually at least making a tuple is pretty easy since i can just... make it
16:51:14 <oerjan> well there's an addition program right there on the wiki, just prepend a tuple of your numbers and append a p (or o)
16:52:02 <oklopod> actually i'll upload it first, and ask questions later, so to speak
16:52:43 <oklopod> in the sense that i first do it and then start wondering if i should've
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16:56:40 <oklopod> and if the example program works
16:57:01 <oklopod> not that i don't trust your magical powers
16:57:20 <oerjan> good, good, then i don't have to
16:58:08 <oklopod> i actually don't have -e yet, i considered adding -e as a separate command, and not letting you use it in the <> notation otherwise
16:58:25 <oklopod> feels impure to let just one letter in there
16:58:51 <oklopod> if there was also E or something else, say if numbers are added, then definitely
16:59:41 <oklopod> btw often when i say i've thought about doing something i'm just coming up with it on the fly
16:59:53 <oklopod> i don't always realize this until i've said it
17:00:16 <oklopod> sometimes i do but who cares it's more convincing than hey my brain wants to tell us something
17:00:35 <oklopod> i don't know what it is yet but it's confident about it
17:00:36 <oerjan> my brain says that's ok
17:02:50 <oklopod> hey my intuition wants to share something with us let's listen
17:03:03 <oklopod> that sounds a bit less than professional
17:05:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Alligator).
17:08:12 <oklopod> aaand time to debug two programs at once
17:08:17 <oklopod> the addition does not work
17:10:18 <oklopod> this language is a bit hard to read, it's as if my brain was used to thinking ('s need a matching )
17:19:38 -!- tombom has joined.
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17:57:13 <oklopod> oerjan: there was no error really, i just didn't have S be the tuple, but had S contain the tuple
18:01:00 <oklopod> p, which is called d now, has updated semantics that make it nice for debugging, d as in debug prints stuff in the future format for adding sets in code, which is the <> notation plus numbers, <<0>> gets printed like <1>
18:01:32 <oklopod> it's quite beautiful to watch it calculate 3+2 for like 6 seconds
18:01:44 <oklopod> i dunno why i love slowness so much
18:06:26 -!- seph1 has joined.
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18:11:49 <zzo38> Why does the gopher protocol handler I wrote in my browser sometimes break and it reverts to the built-in Mozilla handler until I restart the browser?
18:18:23 <zzo38> Hay! Someone changed one of the userboxes, it now says: "This user thinks in bytecode and dreams of electric sheep."
18:18:38 <zzo38> Here is another one which used to be different when I added it: "This user thinks that the communists ruined the beauty of Chinese characters by simplifying them."
18:21:12 <zzo38> I don't like it much when someone says "this software is for PC" but it really meant it requires Windows. To me, "this software is for PC" should mean that it runs on IBM PC, and does not require an operating system.
18:23:35 -!- nooga has joined.
18:27:44 <zzo38> Knowledge is knowing that tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that you don't put tomatoes in fruit salad.
18:29:32 <zzo38> Please don' t cross any railings lest suddenness happens!
18:29:39 <zzo38> If they don't have a scientific name for the spider, they don't know what they're doing.
18:30:04 <zzo38> Autocomplete me: "black people ca" --> "black people can secretly levitate"
18:31:14 -!- augur has joined.
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18:31:46 <oklopod> ( ( ({([r]u}-<<>> { ([r] } rrr
18:31:46 <oklopod> [ ( ({([r]u}-<<>> { rrr ua uuue }
18:31:46 <oklopod> -( ({([r]u}-<<>> { rr r uu } ]
18:31:46 <oklopod> -( ({([r]u}-<<>> { ([r] } rrrr d
18:32:06 <oklopod> err i actually meant to paste just the first line... i think
18:32:24 <Phantom_Hoover> On the same lines as what I was talking about last night, can I just load some x86 machine code (not an exec format like ELF) and execute it?
18:32:39 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: where?
18:32:43 <oklopod> oerjan: numbers now implemented
18:34:11 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: You can emulate it using Bochs
18:34:29 <nooga> it's a bit tricky but sure, possible
18:34:42 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38: I could, but I'm not doing this for practical reasons.
18:35:14 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga: I've tried a simple mmap-jmp thing in assembly, but it segfaullts.
18:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover> strace suggests that it's segfaulting at or after the jump.
18:35:51 <nooga> let me check my old code, i've got this implemented somewhere
18:35:52 <zzo38> You can't do it in protected mode, because it requires the kernel to know the format so that it can be loaded.
18:36:16 <Phantom_Hoover> So you can't put some machine code in memory and jump to it?
18:36:50 <nooga> i did that, let me think
18:36:59 <zzo38> Yes you could, but if you are in protected mode, you are still in protected mode. In addition, you can't just do that without a loader. Protected mode requires the kernel to load it at first.
18:37:00 <fizzie> You might need to call mprotect, to make the region executable.
18:37:36 <fizzie> Or use anonymous mmap() with the right protection flags; either-or.
18:38:09 <zzo38> I now have the quote about tomatoes in fruit salad on my Wikipedia userpage.
18:38:15 <fizzie> Maybe not necessarily anonymous either if you're loading from a file, I guess.
18:38:51 <nooga> PROT_EXEC|PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE
18:39:37 <nooga> zzo38: if you've got a running process, you can omit kernel's loader and exec
18:40:35 <fizzie> gdb'ing a breakpoint at the address you jump into is also always a possibility.
18:41:40 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga: Tried that. fizzie: It's written in assembly (inline drives me mad), so there isn't any debugging information.
18:42:25 <fizzie> If you wrote it in assembly, you shouldn't need debugging information; just use the disassemble command.
18:43:06 <nooga> maybe the code has some adresses that need to be shifted
18:45:49 <nooga> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2019923/executing-machine-code-in-memory
18:48:05 <nooga> 18:35 < Phantom_Hoover> strace suggests that it's segfaulting at or after the jump.
18:51:28 <nooga> i didn't paste that
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19:34:08 <AnMaster> ais523, strange thing from gcc configure (you might find it funny):
19:34:12 <AnMaster> checking for x86_64-linux-gnu-ar... no
19:34:12 <AnMaster> checking for x86_64-linux-gnu-ar... no
19:34:17 <ais523> gcc configure is broken
19:34:27 <ais523> and the only issue there is it isn't showing the paths
19:34:29 <AnMaster> first it find ar, then it doesn't, then it finds it again
19:35:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:36:39 <AnMaster> ais523, also I found out that to actually get gcc to build with a specific rpath I need something like:
19:36:40 <AnMaster> LDFLAGS=-Wl,-rpath,/home/arvid/local/llvm/2.7/lib ../gcc-source/configure [...]
19:36:40 <AnMaster> make LDFLAGS=-Wl,-rpath,/home/arvid/local/llvm/2.7/lib LDFLAGS_FOR_TARGET=-Wl,-rpath,/home/arvid/local/llvm/2.7/lib BOOT_LDFLAGS=-Wl,-rpath,/home/arvid/local/llvm/2.7/lib -j2
19:36:49 <AnMaster> as in, all of those LDFLAGS are required
19:37:26 <AnMaster> ais523, that I find really wth
19:41:00 -!- alise has joined.
19:41:30 <alise> A confusion of notions
19:41:47 -!- nooga has joined.
19:43:19 <AnMaster> ais523, any progress at with feather btw? (It was weeks since I asked last time!)
19:43:30 <ais523> no, why would you expect me to have done?
19:43:34 <ais523> given that I'm pretty RL-busy atm
19:43:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I have been RL-busy too, so wouldn't have noticed
19:45:09 <alise> Unit news update! Nothing much. At all. Like, barely anything. I discovered there's a /b/tard there. So you can imagine how quite boring my week has been in general if that is big news.
19:46:14 -!- seph2 has joined.
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19:47:01 <oklopod> alise: i made a language called toi and i've been advertising it all winter
19:47:18 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:47:18 <alise> A good prime for what?
19:47:20 <alise> Generally anything "really big" is nice.
19:47:31 <oklopod> give me something relatively big
19:47:48 <alise> How many decimal digits, approximately, are we going for?
19:47:53 <alise> Want to fit it into a 32-bit integer?
19:48:49 <alise> I just saw today's and you said "toi".
19:49:14 <AnMaster> oklopod, a good prime? what about 3?
19:49:26 <nooga> optimus prime, apparently
19:49:29 <alise> does 1299827 sound nice to you?
19:49:41 <alise> there are a lot of others at http://primes.utm.edu/lists/small/100000.txt, but 1299827 is nice because it is the last one.
19:49:45 <oklopod> anyway it's neat, currently trying to optimize the interpreter so that you can manipulate numbers greater than (ridiculously small number)
19:50:21 <nooga> alise: how far from edinburgh are you?
19:50:21 <alise> if 6 is ok and you've suddenly become a decimal fan, 888887 is nice because it has a lot of 8s in it
19:50:24 <oklopod> actually the current interp can barely handle operations on numbers of size 7, but you could easily go to 20 with simple optimizations
19:51:34 <alise> My Oracle (name of Maps, Google) tells me that road separates me and Edinburgh by 95.8 miles.
19:51:41 <nooga> i'm just trying to make myself sure that the distance is big enough
19:51:42 <alise> It may be less if you count, say, lakes as being passable.
19:51:53 <alise> I'm not going to murder you.
19:52:07 <alise> I'm imprisoned Monday-to-Friday; too tired on Friday; and hurriedly doing more interesting things the other two days.
19:52:30 <pikhq> Good afternoon, madame alise.
19:52:46 * alise wonders if "madame" is correct for this nick's customised gender structure..
19:53:03 <alise> *...; .. is definitely not correct anywhere.
19:53:46 <nooga> i think i'm going to dring with scots
19:53:55 <pikhq> So. Unit has been motherfucking boring. Got it.
19:54:18 <pikhq> Though a bad idea, you *could* make it much more interesting by feigning various mental disorders.
19:54:45 <pikhq> Hallucinations are ever-popular.
19:54:47 <alise> "I can't go to class today... the /other beings/ are there."
19:55:04 <alise> "Ford^WNurse, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it."
19:56:19 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeOvMhkK5pI CTO
19:56:28 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: i'm in EDI
19:56:30 <alise> Presumably, nooga arrives there sometime.
19:56:33 <alise> ...Or in the past.
19:56:50 <alise> nooga: You know, if you visited me I'd only slightly murder you.
19:56:53 <nooga> I'm stuck here till monday
19:57:05 <nooga> alise: bah, i don't want to
19:57:13 <AnMaster> oklopod, what do you mean "of size"?
19:57:30 <alise> "Stuck"; a nice word to describe Britain.
19:57:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He's irritating!
19:57:47 <nooga> i prefer scots... i can't understand their blabbering and they're too drunk to laugh at me ;]
19:58:23 <pikhq> nooga: You just need to reverse the Great Vowel Shift. ;)
19:58:50 <alise> The Great Vowel Shift of 1822.
19:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover> And, depending on your accent, strip out ~half the "r"s.
19:59:00 <alise> A war in the land of linguistics!
19:59:03 <nooga> RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAIT
19:59:09 <alise> Lo, prescriptivist blood did spill!
19:59:18 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift
19:59:21 <alise> THE TIMES THERE ARE ALL LIES
19:59:26 <alise> WRITTEN BY THE ENEMY
19:59:29 <AnMaster> also I think the Scottish accent isn't too hard to understand. With the exception for the odd strange phrase. But much less so than Australian I find
19:59:38 <alise> E before I except in a few rare cases.
19:59:57 <nooga> beh, i've been in oysralia an it was okay
20:00:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: One of the most notable bits about the Scots *language* is that it retains a large number of vowels from before the Great Vowel Shift, IIRC.
20:00:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, remind me, what was the Great Vowel Shift now again?
20:00:30 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift
20:00:35 <alise> Oh, I forgot; still ignored.
20:00:47 <alise> (I actually did forget, for once.)
20:00:49 <nooga> i think scottish should write english using danish alphabet ;p
20:00:55 <pikhq> All the vowels shifted in Middle English over some 100 years.
20:00:58 <nooga> or something like that
20:01:02 <pikhq> This produced Early Modern English.
20:01:26 <nooga> and other weird vowels
20:02:19 <nooga> oh, btw. i've went to a museum and saw a book written in older english with all that f-like characters we used to use here some time ago
20:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAARRRGH! I stumbled into a Party Political Broadcast!
20:02:24 <pikhq> It was technically also occuring well into the 1700s, but it's the initial shift into Early Modern English that's actually interesting.
20:03:59 <alise> Hmm, MathJax = jsMath's next version. I thought it was a ripoff.
20:04:17 <pikhq> Also, the *degree* of the shift produces a large amount of the variance in English dialects in the UK.
20:04:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Which party?
20:04:31 -!- jcp has joined.
20:04:35 <alise> AnMaster: An ad that lasts five years, sure...
20:04:50 <pikhq> (not so much in the US. We forked from a few dialects and had a decent number of our own vowel and consonant shifts)
20:05:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: RUN! RUUUUUN!
20:06:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: I tried, but by the time I realised I had been listening to Cameron it was over.
20:06:24 <pikhq> If only the Great Vowel Shift hadn't coincided with the printing press being introduced in Britain.
20:06:27 <alise> The rapture is at hand.
20:06:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Really? I haven't noticed any Christians disappearing...
20:07:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Though I try to dissociate with the strongly-religious...
20:07:13 <alise> The... non-Conservative rapture!!!
20:07:16 <pikhq> (this is the reason for much of our bloody bizarre orthography)
20:07:23 <alise> Every non-Conservative shall be sent to a land of pain and torture!
20:07:32 <alise> It is the singularly most unrealistic rapture possible, which is EXACTLY WHY IT'S HAPPENING!
20:07:58 <alise> Note: the land of pain and torture is more commonly known as "a Britain governed by the Tories".
20:10:17 <alise> All I can think of is the BNP.
20:10:17 <alise> And a dozen other parties.
20:10:17 <alise> But they're not exactly at risk of running the country. :-)
20:11:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Or the Tories might not have decided that moving somewhat to the left was a good idea.
20:11:57 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:12:32 <alise> Somewhat; but that's still not nearly left enough. Maybe a few more minutes 'til meltdown, but what could we do except come more to the sickening reality of our imminent demise?
20:12:43 <alise> Or, you know, maybe I'm overly melodramatic.
20:13:03 * Sgeo has his Nexus One in his hand
20:13:10 -!- wooby has left (?).
20:13:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: HIS PANTS
20:14:11 <Sgeo> I'm not allowed to put the SIM card in it though, and I don't have the password for the wireless with me
20:14:14 <AnMaster> booted an old dell computer with an usb keyboard attached
20:14:18 <Sgeo> But I did put the SIM in anyway earlier
20:14:21 <Sgeo> So I got to play a bit
20:14:31 <AnMaster> "Please attach USB keyboard to port at the back of computer"
20:14:31 <Sgeo> Right now, using it as a VERY expensive MP3 player
20:14:45 <AnMaster> I had connected it to one at the front
20:15:07 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> I'm not allowed to put the SIM card in it though, and I don't have the password for the wireless with me <-- why aren't you allowed to do that?
20:15:33 <Sgeo> My dad wants to hide the fact that he bought a new phone for me from my step-mother
20:15:53 <Sgeo> When my step-mother's mom comes back, I'm just supposed to say it's a PDA
20:15:58 <AnMaster> Sgeo, so, you won't ever be able to use it as a phone?
20:16:00 <Sgeo> Eventually, we'll get a new line for it
20:16:16 <alise> Sgeo: Your family is crazy. :-)
20:16:28 <Sgeo> And in the process, costing money, because my dad's worried about my step-mother being upset about spending money
20:16:46 <alise> Sgeo: How about this for a line: "It's my dad's; I'm borrowing it".
20:17:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there anyone in a position to upgrade the wiki? It's using a 2-year-old version of the wiki software.
20:17:10 <Sgeo> alise, when my step-mother's mom sees me around with it all the time?
20:17:28 <alise> Well, then there is no real line you can take.
20:17:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Only graue, and disturbing him usually leads to Monstrous Things. Not really, but we're all pretty content.
20:18:02 <alise> Sgeo: It's a phone, it was bought. Hiding these terribly obvious things is impossible.
20:18:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I seem to recall thinking that there was something useful that the wiki didn't have, but I forget.
20:18:24 <Sgeo> alise, it's temporarily being hidden, not permanently
20:18:55 <Sgeo> The controls for Frozen Bubble on Android are a bit unintuitive
20:18:58 <alise> "It's fine that money was spent and hid it from me. If you'd just spent it and /not/ hid it... well, then there'd be trouble!"
20:20:30 <alise> I like big numbers.
20:20:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, probably less security issues ;)
20:21:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: There is; probably lots.
20:22:03 * Sgeo hasn't followed MediaWiki updates since.. 2004, maybe?
20:30:42 -!- charlesq__ has joined.
20:32:52 <pikhq> Sgeo: Your family is freaking crazy.
20:33:55 -!- charlls has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:34:23 * Sgeo decides that the trackball is useful for something: Playing Frozen Bubble
20:36:27 <alise> So, /me has a long term project.
20:37:32 <AnMaster> Sgeo, your phone has a track ball?
20:37:57 <alise> Sgeo: A computer algebra system/dependently-typed programming language: two for the price of one.
20:38:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, no it is a fairy tail. It is a classical motif. Step mother and that ;)
20:38:21 <alise> This will be the basis of my OS. Plus, a large database of constructions of mathematical objects in this language, from the empty set to the (computable) reals and beyond.
20:38:31 <Sgeo> I should probably learn what dependent typing is.
20:38:36 <alise> Sgeo: Oh, /theorem prover, too.
20:38:45 <alise> Dependently-typed programming languages <=> theorem verifiers.
20:38:57 <alise> Add lots and lots of sugar and automated tactics and you get a full-blooded theorem provers.
20:39:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: But where's the fairy godmother?
20:39:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, you have to to move with the times. Gender equality is all the rage these days. I would say "whoever bought you a Nexus One"
20:40:20 <pikhq> That's his father, not his godfather.
20:40:26 <pikhq> And still not a fairy.
20:40:57 <alise> Did you know that 11^11 = 285311670611?
20:40:58 * Sgeo takes a pointless video of IRC with his phone
20:41:16 <pikhq> alise: No, but my computer could soon discover it.
20:41:27 <Sgeo> The video mode doesn't have auto-focus :(
20:41:27 <alise> And that is the beauty of computers!
20:41:33 <AnMaster> <pikhq> That's his father, not his godfather. <-- hm true
20:41:52 <AnMaster> but wrt. fairy: in disguise of course
20:42:03 <pikhq> That makes Sgeo fae.
20:42:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, I thought it was more a job description (or maybe that is a unique feature of Discworld faeries?)
20:43:07 <pikhq> That's a unique feature of Discworld.
20:43:15 <pikhq> You fail at the good folk.
20:43:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure, but I prefer the Discworld variant
20:43:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, plus we don't have this in Swedish folk lore
20:44:01 <pikhq> I prefer the good and proper folklore variant.
20:44:18 <pikhq> Before they got to be all nice, pretty, shiny, and nice.
20:44:42 <alise> pikhq: Also, n^n = pi, where n = e^{W(\log{\pi})} ~ 1.85411.
20:44:59 <alise> Self-exponentiation is fun.
20:45:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm in the folklore, are elves == faeries?
20:45:31 <alise> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/LambertW-Function.html
20:45:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, different folklore.
20:47:32 <pikhq> Though it's hard to say, as what exactly constitutes a "fairy" changes from tale to tale.
20:47:38 <pikhq> Sometimes, it will include any magical being.
20:47:39 <alise> Indeed for any m, n^n = m is solved by n = e^W(log(m)), so long as e^W(log(m)) - 1 != 0, and log(m) != 0.
20:47:55 <alise> How do I know this? The oracle of Wolfram Alpha, naturally.
20:47:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, remember what log actually means. y=log_a(x) <=> a^y = x
20:48:07 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you can't get 0 there. a^0 = 1
20:48:28 <alise> ^echo a^0 is undefined.
20:48:28 <fungot> a^0 is undefined. a^0 is undefined.
20:48:32 <alise> oh wait it's ignored
20:48:35 <alise> ]oi a^0 is undefined.
20:48:47 <alise> !sh echo a^0 is undefined.
20:48:59 <alise> another bot for AnMaster to ignore
20:49:19 <pikhq> Big thing, though: elves are Germanic folklore. Fairies are Celtic.
20:49:31 <alise> spamming truth, yeah
20:49:47 <alise> pikhq: please correct AnMaster's error
20:50:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: The bots are not spamming, alise is making use of the botten.
20:50:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, well he is incorrect. a^0 = 1 for all a
20:50:55 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponentiation#Exponents_one_and_zero
20:51:01 <pikhq> alise: He's right.
20:51:08 <AnMaster> just checked on my calculator too
20:51:34 <pikhq> I'm not sure what that property made convenient, though.
20:51:58 <pikhq> (I can only presume that was defined for convenience's sake somewhere)
20:52:10 <alise> a^0 is /not/ defined
20:52:17 <alise> a^0 is just most conveniently 1 most of the time
20:52:32 <alise> i thought he said 0^0...
20:52:42 <alise> holy shit, i've mistyped it all the way above
20:52:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, wikipedia seems to try to explain that
20:52:51 <alise> ... :|, forgive me i've just come back from hell
20:52:56 <AnMaster> but I can't paste it since the math is rendered as images here
20:52:59 <pikhq> alise: forall a where a != 0, a^0 = 1;forall a where a = 0, a^0 is undefined. :)
20:53:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: Is a thinko apparently.
20:53:08 <alise> although using a TI-83+ calculator to verify mathematical things is lunacy
20:53:23 <pikhq> Pretty damned bad one, but hell. I've done worse.
20:53:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: He's been thinking you were discussing 0^0.
20:53:50 <pikhq> Like I said. Thinko.
20:54:08 <AnMaster> thus a = 0 would make no sense whatsoever in this context
20:54:22 <pikhq> log_0 is... Probably stupid.
20:54:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, is log_0 even definable?
20:55:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not as a function.
20:55:52 <AnMaster> lets see, log_a(x) = ln(x)/ln(a) right?
20:56:01 <alise> log_0(x) = nullity
20:56:08 <AnMaster> in which case log_0() is not defined yeah
20:56:12 <alise> oklopod: of course, for almost all purposes 0^0=1
20:56:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, then how else could you define it?
20:56:29 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, yeah, log_0(x) is most definitely a function. log_0(x) = _|_
20:56:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes it is undefined for all values
20:56:56 <alise> well ln(0) is only undefined if log_e(0) is undefined
20:58:40 <pikhq> alise: Well, lim x->0 log_e(x) = -oo... Which makes lim a->0 log_a(x) = 0, I think... Not useful, though. :)
20:59:45 <alise> who let you define x/-oo = 0 EH
21:00:19 <alise> don't get no mo lim x->-oo n/x on me beyotch
21:03:10 <AnMaster> oh btw from logs: "12:53:08 <alise> although using a TI-83+ calculator to verify mathematical things is lunacy" <-- sure, I didn't actually need it to know I was correct.
21:03:27 <alise> More like a TI-83+ is not a paragon of mathematical precision.
21:03:36 <alise> And if you are to read logs for the purpose of conversing with me, unignore me.
21:03:37 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:04:38 <pikhq> 15:03 < alise> And if you are to read logs for the purpose of conversing with me, unignore me.
21:04:46 <pikhq> Smartest thing I've heard said all week.
21:05:14 <alise> Using bots to make snarky comments, on the other hand, is A-OK.
21:05:14 <AnMaster> I only read it because I wanted to see how alise reacted to noticing he was wrong
21:05:41 <alise> AnMaster is doing a very bad job of attempting to trod on a dog with a bullet in its chest.
21:05:52 <AnMaster> I don't plan to continue to read the logs further
21:06:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: Dude, seriously, /unignore him or *actually ignore him*.
21:06:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I closed the log now.
21:06:23 <pikhq> Your ignoring thing is like "LALALALA IM NOT LISTENING", except somewhat less infantile.
21:06:53 <alise> AnMaster? --Less infantile?
21:07:06 <alise> I'm actually somewhat infantile in a quite literal sense, at least I have an excuse!
21:07:40 <pikhq> alise: Vi vejnas unan Interneton.
21:07:55 <alise> Ixnay on the Esperanto. Ay.
21:08:25 <alise> Your caret is a carrot.
21:08:32 <alise> (THAT WOULD BE AN AMAZING FONT)
21:09:00 <pikhq> Wouldst thou prefer a more Anglo-Frisian tongue?
21:09:39 <pikhq> If so, then thou hast won one Internet.
21:09:42 <oklopod> okay i have utterly failed to optimize this thing to handle numbers without adding special code for them :(
21:09:45 <alise> Very Modern English would work, but -- not too modern.
21:09:57 <alise> oklopod: tell me how it goes and i'll sprinkle magic on it
21:10:37 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:10:51 <alise> Photographic jesus
21:14:25 <oklopod> code is linked on the page
21:14:58 <alise> oklopod: link the page
21:15:02 <oklopod> the basic idea of mine fails because even though i got memory usage down, turns out constructing the numbers takes about the same amount of time
21:15:06 <alise> I am a genius and a prodigy; you do the banal work.
21:15:16 <alise> I even get computers to do most of my arithmetic for me.
21:15:17 <oklopod> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Toi
21:15:46 <alise> "There is no set called the error set."
21:15:51 <alise> is there a set called the purple banana set?
21:15:58 <oklopod> no, why would you think that
21:16:10 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:16:27 <alise> well i wouldn't think there is a set called the error set either
21:17:09 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Your ignoring thing is like "LALALALA IM NOT LISTENING", except somewhat less infantile. <-- iirc alise said that phrase a few times
21:17:22 <oklopod> good point, anyway the point of the language was to make something where all operations are "global" in some sense
21:17:43 <oklopod> it's a rather new paradigm, afaik
21:17:53 <alise> oklopod: well optimising numbers here ~= optimising von neumann ordinals basically yeah?
21:18:04 <alise> ~= optimising certain sets
21:18:13 <oklopod> absolutely horrible paradigm implemented with a language with a horrible syntax that's inherently horribly slow
21:18:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:18:17 <alise> so compress sets. that's my amazing prodigal discovery
21:18:29 <oklopod> yeah but operations on the sets...........................
21:18:37 <oklopod> i suppose everything's solvable
21:18:39 <alise> optimise them also
21:18:55 <alise> how slow is constructing a 7-digit number exactly?
21:19:03 <oklopod> well i can get up to the number 12
21:19:12 <alise> are we talking on the order of years here?
21:19:25 <Sgeo> alise, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0c5yClip4o
21:19:30 <alise> oklopod: I was about to ask about the growth
21:19:42 <alise> oklopod: I don't think exponentials work like that
21:19:55 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
21:20:39 <alise> oklopod: anyway so what's the basic issue, like what construction operation takes too long
21:20:47 <alise> # 'a' changes S to S ∪ {t | t ∈ s, s ∈ S}.
21:21:01 <alise> or # 'r' changes S to {t | t ∈ s, s ∈ S} (this is decrement if S is an ordinal).
21:21:12 <oklopod> the basic issue is you can never create a number of any considerable size
21:21:32 <alise> but which operation blocks this, or is it just the sheer size of operations
21:21:33 <oklopod> i now have a data structure for *having* big numbers tho
21:21:45 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:21:50 <oklopod> because of my geniustructure
21:22:03 <alise> like wrt a/r, I'd consider storing a set as X \cup {t | t \in s, s \in Y}
21:22:06 <alise> so you just store X,Y
21:22:11 <alise> along with whatever else you need for general sets...
21:22:19 <alise> but maybe it is just the sheer manifoldosity of operations
21:22:25 <alise> in which case just optimise some loops :P
21:22:44 <oklopod> is that set representation really closed under set operations?
21:23:01 <alise> probably not, just add enough variables until it works
21:23:09 <alise> but it sure would make a/r O(1)...
21:23:14 <oklopod> i mean yeah sure i could just do everything lazily
21:23:49 -!- Asztal has joined.
21:24:03 <oklopod> actually i think what i have now might give me O(n^2) construction of numbers, that's what i originally hoped for
21:24:06 <alise> imo it's a very pretty representation of sets :P
21:24:45 <alise> X \cup {t | t \in s, s \in Y} <-- i think this can obviously do anything a set can
21:24:57 <alise> ofc it's not very usefu
21:25:11 <oklopod> so if you do a on it, what do you get?
21:25:32 <oklopod> what's a(X \cup {t | t \in s, s \in Y})
21:25:40 <alise> let [[X,Y]] := X \cup {t | t \in s, s \in Y}
21:25:48 <alise> then a([[X,Y]]) := hmm
21:26:06 <alise> a([[X,Y]]) := [[ [[X,Y]], [[X,Y]] ]]
21:26:29 <alise> or what do you mean
21:26:43 <oklopod> that's not of the same form
21:26:50 <oklopod> because [[X, Y]] is not a set
21:26:57 <alise> yeah it is, I defined it to be so :P
21:27:00 <alise> <alise> let [[X,Y]] := X \cup {t | t \in s, s \in Y}
21:27:13 <oklopod> or if it's considered one, then you just have a tree, you're just storing the operation
21:27:25 <alise> true, but it avoids a loop in r/a
21:27:29 <alise> but fair enough, lemme try it the other way
21:28:04 <alise> or areyou an oracle
21:28:29 <oklopod> it'd be kinda cool to code a bf interpreter in toi when no interpreter could even run a hello world in a million years
21:28:58 <oklopod> and i doubt anyone other than me is interested in trying
21:29:50 <oklopod> one thing i could do is just switch to <^n >^n ordinals... but that'd be kinda boring
21:30:41 <oklopod> then if you'd store sets as (depth, "leaf element"), you'd have optimized numbers completely
21:32:41 <oklopod> should be really trivial to make a bf interp actually, just make a stack out of tuples
21:33:32 <alise> kinda boring but c'mon, big numbers are nice
21:33:53 <oklopod> well i'm still weighing my options
21:34:51 <oklopod> maybe i'll optimize numbers first for funsies
21:36:33 <AnMaster> arch/x86/kernel/head_32.S: Assembler messages:
21:36:33 <AnMaster> arch/x86/kernel/head_32.S:64: Warning: shift count out of range (32 is not between 0 and 31)
21:36:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:41:10 -!- coppro has joined.
21:53:10 <Sgeo> My phone just fell
21:53:24 <Sgeo> Fortunately, it was an inch or so above the ground before it fell
22:13:02 -!- tombom_ has joined.
22:15:11 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
22:21:01 <alise> Sgeo: Wow, you do drop it a lot.
22:25:19 -!- seph2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:29:52 <AnMaster> Sgeo, You *do* need a rugged phone
22:38:07 -!- wareya has changed nick to warey.
22:38:07 -!- warey has changed nick to wareya.
22:38:30 <wareya> Fuck, it doesn't reset identification when you do that on freenode?
22:43:08 <oklopod> alise: i just calculated 20+20!
22:43:47 <Sgeo> How many digits is 20+20!?
22:44:42 <coppro> is this an INTERCAL library or something?
22:44:46 <Sgeo> 40 seems too small to be 20+20!
22:44:58 <oklopod> no turns out it's just rigt
22:45:13 <oklopod> coppro: this addition thing? is intercal slow?
22:45:21 <oklopod> this is about MY LANGUAGE TOI
22:45:23 <ais523> oklopod: yes, INTERCAL is relatively slow
22:45:41 <Sgeo> Given that 20+20 = 40, how can 20+19*20, which is < 20+20!, be <40?
22:45:53 <oklopod> 30+30 still takes forever with my current sets
22:45:54 <ais523> oklopod: let me find the shortest known INTERCAL addition statement that doesn't resort to an external library
22:45:56 <alise> Sgeo: you know what he meant
22:45:58 <alise> stop being pedantic
22:46:05 <coppro> oklopod: it's not that it's slow. It's that it invovles implementing shift-and-add
22:46:05 <alise> oklopod: now define *
22:46:14 <alise> how much overhead will 20*2 have over 20+20?
22:46:38 <Sgeo> WHat's oklopod's project?
22:46:45 <oklopod> Sgeo: oh finally i get what you meant
22:46:46 <ais523> (1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
22:46:51 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Toi
22:47:01 <ais523> but the INTERCAL version is probably faster
22:47:16 <ais523> OK, it's multithreaded, but it's O(log n), rather than Toi presumably being O(n)
22:47:29 <oklopod> well it's a low-level language, isn't it, you don't easily get an exponentixplotion
22:47:37 <ais523> (and if you're wondering wtf addition is shorter multithreaded, welcome to INTERCAL)
22:47:59 <oklopod> used to be O(2^n), now it might be polynomial, but perhaps not
22:48:05 * Sgeo disses Toi syntactic sugar
22:48:30 <ais523> (there are two threads in the above; one of which does the addition in a loop, the other of which checks to see when the loop terminates)
22:48:33 <ais523> coppro: actually, that's C-INTERCAL
22:48:40 <ais523> the two have borrowed quite a few features from the others
22:48:51 <coppro> in any case, it's taking a horrible language and making it truly disingenuous
22:48:57 <oklopod> ais523: O(log n) wrt what n?
22:48:58 <ais523> e.g. the / operator exists in C-INTERCAL, but it isn't as general
22:49:15 <ais523> oklopod: that's worst case, where n is the large of the numbers being added
22:49:34 <ais523> the great thing about that addition algorithm is that it actually does long addition
22:49:39 <ais523> like you might implement with pencil and paper
22:49:43 <ais523> add, work out the carries, add those on, etc
22:50:29 <alise> Ooh, do long division!
22:50:31 <alise> Worst algorithm ever.
22:50:37 <oklopod> yeah the toi version is far from linear, but i imagine with enough work numbers could be hacked to be pretty fast
22:51:36 <ais523> alise: fun fact: the original INTERCAL division implementation was described as a "slick trick" by Don Knuth
22:52:02 <ais523> although I think it operates using iterated subtraction
22:52:12 <alise> Why do people call him Don?
22:52:18 <ais523> he called himself Don in the program in question
22:52:20 <alise> "Don Knuth" just feels wrong.
22:52:44 <ais523> (29733) DON KNUTH'S IMPLEMENTATION OF TPK IN INTERCAL
22:52:49 <alise> Hmm, and his homepage uses Don Knuth too.
22:53:24 * oklopod wishes he was more interested in intercal so his conscience would allow him to expect ais523 to be interested in toi
22:53:37 <ais523> he used the 5-bit Baudo format in order to create meaningful variable numbers
22:53:48 <ais523> you can fit three characters into a 16-bit label or variable number that way
22:54:01 <ais523> oklopod: I am vaguely interested in Toi, but have to expend my mental effort on other things atm
22:54:24 <ais523> I may look at it again if I ever end up with significantly more free time
22:55:18 <oklopod> don't worry, see i'm currently not very interested in intercal, so i'm not expecting you to be interested in toi.
22:55:46 <ais523> some day someone should make a less insane version of INTERCAL
22:55:52 <ais523> there are a lot of good ideas in it
22:56:02 <oklopod> but yes you should definitely look at it, your brain will love it
22:56:12 <oklopod> god the syntax is horrible <3
22:56:22 <ais523> what order does it iterate over sets in?
22:56:30 <ais523> arbitrary order, given that sets are inherently unordered anyway?
22:56:48 <oklopod> there aren't any loops where the order is visible
22:57:18 <ais523> can't you produce output inside a loop?
22:57:28 <ais523> it would be visible then by observing the order of the side-effects
22:57:28 <oklopod> yes, right, that's ordered
22:57:52 <AnMaster> "recent" entries in ~/.ssh/known_hosts look so strange
22:58:10 <AnMaster> |1|lMQmHP/IGoqcEp49WRP0fmQYcZk=|/hwTECkVnXFM3gnraIRiHbEZ+/8=
22:58:16 <AnMaster> where there was previously an IP
22:59:20 <oklopod> but it's not good practise to rely on the order of a given interp obviously
22:59:51 <oklopod> you can do io in sensible order by just using it in while loops
23:00:28 <oklopod> i could even disallow io in for-each loops that loop over multiple elements
23:02:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:10:49 <alise> anyone know that dijkstra paper (handwritten) talking about equality, leibniz's law, and calculation/computation proofs as opposed to deductive ones?
23:19:46 <pikhq> awib made itself a polyglot in perhaps the cheapest way possible.
23:20:16 <pikhq> It's got a prettyprinter. Said prettyprinter attaches a C and Bash Brainfuck implementation to the code.
23:20:32 <pikhq> (the prettyprinter is *also* a fairly simple Brainfuck preprocessor)
23:23:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: tried
23:24:07 <ais523> AnMaster: looks vaguely like a pubkey signature
23:24:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:24:24 <ais523> trusting pubkeys makes more sense than trusting IPs, if you think about it
23:24:37 -!- augur has joined.
23:27:13 <Mathnerd314> oklopod: my preprocessor looks even more useful now...
23:27:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:27:53 <pikhq> ais523: The .ssh/known_hosts thing is supposed to be a mapping between pubkeys and IPs, though.
23:28:11 <pikhq> So that ssh can scream bloody murder if the pubkey of a server has changed.
23:28:22 -!- augur has joined.
23:28:30 <ais523> perhaps it's encrypting the IPs in order to prevent people working out where you've been connecting
23:28:36 <ais523> one-way hash would work
23:29:59 <pikhq> That would, in fact, make sense.
23:30:04 <pikhq> The format actually fits, too.
23:30:26 <Phantom_Hoover> It always used to irk me that the random numbers people put at the end of their screen names weren't sequential.
23:31:51 <ais523> mine is, just sequential with a data source you're probably unaware of
23:31:57 <alise> Mathnerd314 falls under "trying too hard".
23:32:13 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:32:24 <alise> Look guys, I'm totally hot for mathematics! I can prove this because I have the first three decimal digits of pi without the decimal point after this assertion.
23:33:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:34:10 -!- oklopod has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:34:26 <Mathnerd314> I needed a nick for a quick registration or two...
23:35:14 -!- charlls has joined.
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23:41:26 -!- charlls has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
23:42:44 -!- oklopod has joined.
23:44:47 <oklopod> when i saw Mathnerd314 i thought "what a coincidence, pi starts that way too"
23:45:42 <oklopod> but after phantom's sequential numbers comment
23:46:02 <oklopod> before that i saw Mathnerd<clutter>
23:46:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:47:00 <oklopod> HI OERJAN HAEV YOU HERD NWE NEWS
23:47:48 <oerjan> give me a little time to read the logs, okay?
23:48:18 <oerjan> <oklopod> this language is a bit hard to read, it's as if my brain was used to thinking ('s need a matching )
23:48:42 <oerjan> the tuple algorithms remind me of Haskell Arrows
23:49:01 <oerjan> it essentially implements their fundamental methods, i think
23:49:01 <oklopod> everything becomes tons clearer if i just add ) before a [/{ :D
23:50:14 <oklopod> you're gonna shit bricks when you hear i managed to add 20+20 with the current interp
23:50:19 <oklopod> that only took like 5 minutes
23:50:28 <oklopod> or maybe significantly less but anyway
23:51:53 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Hey! Listen!).
23:52:03 <oerjan> the first algorithm uuueua-e is id &&& id
23:52:21 <oerjan> then first a, and second b
23:53:03 <AnMaster> <ais523> perhaps it's encrypting the IPs in order to prevent people working out where you've been connecting <-- yes it is
23:53:20 <AnMaster> it makes pruning out old dead entries impossible
23:53:24 <oerjan> >>> is just composition
23:53:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I had over 200 lines before pruning dead entries, now I have less than 100
23:54:15 <pikhq> Y'know, I have half a mind to extend Brainfuck to support Linux system calls.
23:54:32 <oerjan> and *** can be built with >>>, first and second, while a &&& b = (id &&& id) >>> (a *** b)
23:54:46 <pikhq> I'm just thinking that it would actually be a useful extension.
23:54:58 <pikhq> And let me write coreutils in Brainfuck.
23:56:10 <pikhq> The main issue is that that would probably require 32-bit Brainfuck, or at least peek, poke, and malloc...
23:57:20 <oklopod> oerjan: i'd have to look up arrays
23:57:44 <oerjan> Control.Arrow is the module
23:57:54 <pikhq> Or, alternately, just represent pointers as 4 Brainfuck chars. XD
23:58:59 <oerjan> btw i was just outside looking at the sky, i had this eerie feeling that there were northern lights up there but that the sky was just too light to be entirely sure
23:59:37 <oerjan> as if something was swiftly moving, almost but not quite imperceptibly