< 1272931328 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that cannot be the original text surely < 1272931367 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the name Diet < 1272931369 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the national diet of japan. everyone must eat according to it! < 1272931376 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: why not? < 1272931382 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from being translated, obviously < 1272931391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His Majesty the Emperor < 1272931391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : At Trondheim < 1272931391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Cruising along the canal, < 1272931391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : From the windows < 1272931391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Of houses are people < 1272931391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't a clue why it's "The Diet". < 1272931392 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Seen smiling and waving hands. < 1272931395 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a really shitty poem < 1272931425 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also referring to himself in his poem what < 1272931426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shall look to see if the Japanese can be found
< 1272931428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely recall it's a borrowed word < 1272931440 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are STUPID mr. emperor < 1272931445 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: why do you not think it is the original text? < 1272931450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: well translation's what i meant < 1272931457 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The word diet derives from Latin and was a common name for an assembly in medieval Germany. The Meiji constitution was largely based on the form of constitutional monarchy found in nineteenth century Prussia and the new Diet was modeled partly on the German Reichstag and partly on the British Westminster system. Unlike Japan's modern constitution, the Meiji constitution granted a real political role to the Emperor, although in practice the Emperor's powers < 1272931458 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : were largely directed by a group of oligarchs called the genrō.[16] < 1272931460 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right < 1272931492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: i don't think he's referring to himself, sheesh < 1272931498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just the section title < 1272931512 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that'd do it. < 1272931520 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh :P < 1272931665 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Found the actual original. < 1272931670 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"トロンハイムの運河を行けば家々の窓より人ら笑みて手を振る" < 1272931737 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: No, he is not referring to himself. < 1272931751 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The English translation is *adding* a lot. < 1272931765 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Translate it for us then plz? < 1272931835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Trondheim (of) canal (obj) going houses (of) windows, people-group laughing, hand wave" < 1272931838 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a gloss for you. < 1272931859 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... my fonts are missing half those characters. < 1272931865 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any recommendations? < 1272931903 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or. "Going through Trondheim, at their windows, people are laughing, waving." < 1272931914 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1272931923 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/laughing/smiling/ in that actual translation. < 1272931956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the _theme_ of that year's poetry was "smile" < 1272931992 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :平成18年歌会始お題「笑み」 < 1272932005 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's more "Laughter" than "smile". < 1272932032 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, it's more of a "happy-gleeful" sort of laughter than mocking sort of thing. < 1272932040 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1272932040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Translation is a bitch. < 1272932107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.kunaicho.go.jp/culture/utakai/utakai-h18.html This page also has a *lot* more poems than the English. < 1272932203 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: what OS? < 1272932217 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272932231 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: he is a bad poet. < 1272932239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: It's not bad in Japanese. < 1272932251 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just loses a lot in the translation. < 1272932255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not *great*. :P < 1272932264 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: aren't fonts are OS-independent... ? < 1272932272 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Just answer the question :P < 1272932281 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... Windows < 1272932284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to be... Everyone in the royal family, every prefecture head, and... A Brazilian diplomat? < 1272932285 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes they are, mostly, but--) < 1272932293 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Put in your Windows install CD, go to keyboard settings, go to I think the third tab. < 1272932299 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Click install Japanese/Chinese fonts. < 1272932307 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is the reason I asked. < 1272932312 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1272932313 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They won't be antialiased but who cares. They'll work. < 1272932326 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: If you don't want to do that, dunno. < 1272932330 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google "windows asian fonts". < 1272932335 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of which, pikhq: what are some good antialiased Asian fonts for Linux? < 1272932342 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I have to be up at 9am sigh. < 1272932357 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: I'm using Takao. < 1272932364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crap for Chinese though. < 1272932391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there aren't any good ones? :( < 1272932394 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you need a seperate font for Chinese and Japanese, as the ways of writing them have changed a bit.) < 1272932410 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, will shit automatically use it when the current font fails hard? I assume so. < 1272932419 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and how can it detect /that/? < 1272932437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In HTML, you can specify the used language. < 1272932444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Outside of HTML, "you're fucked". < 1272932454 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1272932470 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Gothic"? < 1272932478 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that doesn't mean that. < 1272932496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Gothic" is an old term for "serif". < 1272932500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1272932504 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sans-serif. < 1272932506 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1272932516 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not up-to-date with the olde typographical termies. < 1272932534 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still used in Japanese to describe sans-serif fonts. < 1272932555 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mincho should be your serif font. < 1272932600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, _this_ is gothic http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/browse/text/?book=1 < 1272932604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mincho", meaning "the style used in the Ming dynasty". < 1272932663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when the printing press became common in China) < 1272932680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Japan. < 1272932714 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The type style actually was made in the Song dynasty, and so it's called a Song typeface in Chinese. < 1272932853 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1272932868 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-45-169.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1272932921 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION would really like to figure out what font *is* being used for Chinese here, because it looks awful.
< 1272933106 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no takao in ubuntu :( < 1272933169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kochi mincho is also nice looking. < 1272933195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only reason I use Takao is because it's more readable at 9pt. < 1272933209 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's in, yay. < 1272933215 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gothic and Mincho, which is superior? < 1272933233 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sans-serif and serif, which is superior? < 1272933272 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :serious people use serif < 1272933298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.nihongoresources.com/language/writing/typefaces.html Here. You look and see. < 1272933377 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how you put serifs on Japanese. < 1272933406 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text book print style, block style, flowing/semi-cursive, and cursive/grass are all nice... >__> < 1272933411 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/>__>/>_>/ < 1272933418 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't really like Ming or Gothic. Ming is better though. < 1272933423 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Gothic is sans-serif, not serif. < 1272933436 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1272933449 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ttf-kochi-mincho is already the newest version. < 1272933451 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it bitmap, then? < 1272933457 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1272933460 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you said serif :P < 1272933464 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then how do I tell fontconfig to use it? < 1272933472 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I then corrected myself. < 1272933479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1272933482 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, you did. < 1272933484 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1272933485 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Ah, so you did. < 1272933491 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno how to get fontconfig to use it. < 1272933521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The semicursive there looks pretty much like my Japanese handwriting, except written by a neater person. :P < 1272933535 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And with a brush... < 1272933577 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: so I see you've named some language called UniCode? < 1272933584 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes; a non-existent one < 1272933612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grass script is really hard to read. < 1272933617 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_ is here! < 1272933626 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And doesn't have an iProduct tag in eir name! < 1272933642 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, until Tuesday. < 1272933644 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bank holiday Monday. < 1272933740 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but see, I think all you need for Unicode to be turing-complete is a "duplicate next few codepoints" character < 1272933786 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some other form of decision < 1272933797 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just using Unicode for the character set. < 1272933799 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, that is false. < 1272933830 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? Does Unicode already have ifs or something? < 1272933866 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1272933876 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{papna} You can write good programs in all sorts of awful languages. < 1272934053 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N1 will get 2.2 first? < 1272934274 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong channel < 1272934296 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1272934490 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1272934683 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1272934700 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that conventional proof by contradiction /does/ work in intuitionistic logic
< 1272934750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally, since not a is defined essentially as "a implies a contradiction" < 1272934752 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh no it doesn't < 1272934754 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, the (P -> ~P) -> ~P kind; just not the (~P -> P) -> P kind < 1272934762 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theorem reductio_ad_absurdum (P : Prop) : (P -> ~P) -> ~P. < 1272934763 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : intros; intro. < 1272934763 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : set (H1 := H H0). < 1272934763 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : contradiction. < 1272934763 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qed. < 1272934763 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it does. < 1272934779 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummmmm that's reductio_ad_absurdum < 1272934795 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Close enough. < 1272934798 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof by contradiction is ~~P -> P < 1272934806 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We take a to be true; we show that it cannot be so, thus contradiction. Therefore not a. < 1272934807 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1272934808 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought those are synonyms < 1272934815 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, classicaly they are < 1272934819 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a subset of proof by contradiction. < 1272934820 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1272934825 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the /majority/ of proofs by contradiction. < 1272934831 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I said /conventional/ proof by contradiction. < 1272935177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proof by majority contradiction. < 1272935185 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Put yourself in this situation: You are a UK hacker writing a program, using, say, curses, where all the constants are written in US English (MAX_COLORS, etc.). Now you want to write a function that returns a random colour. Now consider this paradox: Do you call it randomColour, making the integrity of names suffer? or do you call it randomColor, making it look ugly in your own eyes? Now with ncurses it's not a problem, there are only few variables that < 1272935185 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can easily #define and put into void.h. But with OpenGL, there's a crapload of that and I don't know what to do.]] < 1272935188 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err... Isn't the answer obvious? < 1272935190 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, to everyone? < 1272935204 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :troll thread < 1272935216 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno < 1272935224 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/prog/ usually isn't that subtle < 1272935226 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a good reply "Oh fuck off you fucking polaczky przeciętniaczky " < 1272935227 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :port-has-set-port-position!? -- R6RS < 1272935229 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impressive < 1272935241 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should have used an interrobang < 1272935245 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couleursRandoms < 1272935332 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol my browser is totally frozen; too many tabs < 1272935368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tabs on ice < 1272935378 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the "obvious" answer? Consistancy? < 1272935383 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consistency, yes. < 1272935385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there is an unclosed on /prog/ < 1272935389 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shiichan really sucks < 1272935506 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/05/apples-compiler-policy-may-land-it-in-hot-water-with-ftc.ars < 1272935569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, the FTC still enforces antitrust laws. Who knew? < 1272935597 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apple aren't in a monopoly position < 1272935610 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1272935671 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, yeah. < 1272935706 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf: < 1272935709 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Phantom_Hoover&curid=3152&diff=17461&oldid=16700 < 1272935790 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION emails
< 1272935801 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You must be logged in and have a valid e-mail address in your preferences to send e-mail to other users. < 1272935802 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr... < 1272935807 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone else ask if he is ok? < 1272935843 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to login < 1272935865 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time for a third account, I guess < 1272935883 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION verifies his emal
< 1272935884 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*email < 1272935941 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, if you're asking, does that mean I shouldn't ask? < 1272935946 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or should I ask anyway? < 1272935953 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever asks first wins a cookie. < 1272935959 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and tells the other by pinging them so they don't bother < 1272936011 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I saw your change to your userpage, and just wanted to be sure, is everything ok?" < 1272936014 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that good? < 1272936030 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1272936042 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hopes it doesn't get filed as spam
< 1272936158 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subject was "Hey. Everything ok?" < 1272936173 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, Gmail, the copy I had sent to me was not forged < 1272936266 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1272936297 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION also hopes that the Esolang wiki didn't make it look like the email was sent if it wasn't due to confirmation issues
< 1272936302 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time for Sgeo3 just to be sure < 1272936347 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't < 1272936348 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tells you if not < 1272936370 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1272936710 0 :Gregor-L!~Gregor@248.sub-75-206-147.myvzw.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272936869 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Gregor < 1272936876 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Gregor-L < 1272936901 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on stolen 3G 8-D < 1272936942 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Stolen? How? < 1272936984 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IREX has free unlimited 3G (for buying eBooks) < 1272937005 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1272937007 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor has mad hax0r skills (and a sudden immediate need for Internet, as my apartment is flooded and I'm without my usual access lawlz) < 1272937017 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flooed? sux2bu lol < 1272937084 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, for all the suxiness, 1) it's clean water, not sewage or something, 2) they're putting me up in a real nice hotel (modulo lack of wifi) while they fuck with my apartment and 3) it gave me a great excuse to really clean my apartment before I leave it for the summer :P < 1272937186 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = print ([1..] == [2..]) < 1272937188 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :False < 1272937193 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = print ([1..] == [1..]) < 1272937240 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... what happens to infinite loops? < 1272937241 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, we all love the magic of laziness :P < 1272937251 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It gets killed after (IIRC) 30 seconds. < 1272937272 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, patch Haskell so that will always terminate. < 1272937282 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that's the plan < 1272937316 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or construct a better language where it terminates < 1272937333 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After that, will you donate some of the $Infinite prize to us? < 1272937339 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For having done the impossible? < 1272937364 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1272937365 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not impossible if you special-case it, just useless. < 1272937388 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you have definitional equality < 1272937395 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: That won't terminate in any language. < 1272937400 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JMOD sucks < 1272937409 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say "f a == f a by definition" < 1272937414 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, in non-lazy languages you won't finish constructing the first list. < 1272937419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1272937429 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that [1..] is not the *same* list as [1..]. < 1272937440 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't < 1272937447 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But [1..] was defined in an identical manner to [1..[ < 1272937450 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1..] < 1272937495 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"let x = [1..] in x == x" won't terminate either. < 1272937510 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because "==" does not mean what you think it means. < 1272937537 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Mathnerd314 wants to change the definition of == < 1272937549 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that it uses definition, and not equivance < 1272937560 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a way that it can only work in certain cases. < 1272937581 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you just have overloaded == < 1272937614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Won't work for "[1..] == (map (+1) . map (-1) $ [1..])" < 1272937637 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but those are defined differently < 1272937646 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's the point, I think < 1272937652 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fewer cases where == doesn't return < 1272937653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: But they are obviously equal. < 1272937657 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you'd need (+1) . (-1) . x == x < 1272937678 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define "obvious" < 1272937707 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't typecheck < 1272937742 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it does, it just lacks an instance >:) < 1272937772 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant Mathnerd314's thing < 1272937775 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the == thing < 1272937783 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, forget the "not the == thing" < 1272937808 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t \x -> (+1) . (-1) . x == x < 1272937809 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x -> (+1) . (-1) . x == x :: (Eq (a -> b), Num (b -> b), Num b) => < 1272937814 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, forget everything I said during and since "THat doesn't typecheck" < 1272937817 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1272937822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:49 =EgoBot> (a -> b) -> Bool < 1272937875 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh (-1) isn't a section < 1272937900 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you cannot use map (-1) as you'd think < 1272938000 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t (+-1) < 1272938013 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a syntax error < 1272938020 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t (+(-1)) < 1272938022 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(+(-1)) :: (Num a) => a -> a < 1272938030 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t (`sub` 1) < 1272938049 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t flip (-) 1 < 1272938051 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip (-) 1 :: (Num a) => a -> a < 1272938054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t (subtract 1) < 1272938056 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(subtract 1) :: (Num t) => t -> t < 1272938065 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell flip (-) 1 2 < 1272938066 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1272938114 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell (subtract 1) 2 < 1272938118 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1272938185 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t \x -> (+1) . (+(-1)) $ x == x < 1272938251 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1272938279 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@type \x -> ((+1) . (+(-1)) $ x) == x < 1272938288 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t \x -> ((+1) . (+(-1)) $ x) == x < 1272938290 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x -> ((+1) . (+(-1)) $ x) == x :: (Num a) => a -> Bool < 1272938301 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot gives much better error messages < 1272938310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1272938335 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know why that wouldn't type < 1272938340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t \x -> (+1) . (+(-1)) $ x == x < 1272938355 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because ($) has higher precedence than (==) < 1272938359 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lower < 1272938374 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know, but i _still_ don't know why it wouldn't type >:) < 1272938382 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's like @type \x -> (+1) . (+(-1)) $ (x == x) < 1272938392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _know_ < 1272938396 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Num has no Bool instance < 1272938410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i got no error message in private either < 1272938427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is of no consequence for :t, it should just ask for Num Bool < 1272938441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t False + 1 < 1272938462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently it refuses to do that... < 1272938499 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it needs to know what to do fromInteger 1 with < 1272938509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and + < 1272938554 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1272938766 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, there you go < 1272939015 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(map (+1) . map (+(-1)) $ [1..]) == [1..] reduces to \x → (+1) . (+(-1)) $ x == x, which then gets reduced by some theorem-proving system to true < 1272939162 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe I inverted that < 1272939186 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if he should play with OpenLaszlo
< 1272939200 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this language comes closest: http://sage.soe.ucsc.edu/ < 1272939292 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't be _very_ surprised if ghc reduces (map (+1) . map (+(-1)) $ [1..]) to [1..] internally < 1272939316 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does the map f . map g = map (f . g) reduction, surely < 1272939404 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1272941207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: GHC performs stream fusion. < 1272941228 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It transforms *most* composed list functions into a single iteration over the list. < 1272941348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i meant < 1272941489 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1272941519 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272941945 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-104.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272942610 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272942621 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272942802 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1272943162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1272944313 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1272944558 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Every hobby requires an outlay of funds." < 1272944559 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIES < 1272944627 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes, you had to buy lotion & tissues < 1272944738 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use neither lotion nor tissues. I use nothing at all, in fact. < 1272944759 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: tmi, it was a joke < 1272944771 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. < 1272944806 0 :cap11235!~charlieap@wsip-98-173-208-188.sb.sd.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272944853 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh I don't know what is wrong with OSS, but this skipping audio is annoying < 1272944881 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you using OSS instead of ALSA? Also, what kind of sound card/chip do you have? < 1272944895 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because alsa doesn't seem to be working < 1272944899 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, hardware description languages are the worst ever. There's no dynamic allocation of memory whatsoever; the amount of memory a program uses is constant. There's no flow control, either; everything runs all the time. < 1272944906 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cap11235: OSSv4 is a usable replacement of ALSA. < 1272944909 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it even always reads from and writes to the same place. < 1272944911 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Get you OSSv4. < 1272944959 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Does it have an ALSA to OSS layer? < 1272944969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so, yes. < 1272944973 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The benefit of an HDL, of course, is that it runs really fast. < 1272944973 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome. < 1272944980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, *everything* has an OSS backend anyways. < 1272944993 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Include Flash? < 1272944996 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*including < 1272944999 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cap11235: Aureal Semiconductor Vortex 2 (rev fe) < 1272945005 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flash *still doesn't support ALSA*. < 1272945020 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I am even more despondant about Adobe... < 1272945032 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it just uses OSS? < 1272945067 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1272945070 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, my chipset is on the supported list < 1272945089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may need to try OSSv4 some time. < 1272945108 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The more you know.... %%%%%%%%%%? < 1272945116 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, no Unicode? < 1272945145 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, there's Unicode. Your IRC client may not be able to use it, though. < 1272945194 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using mIRC... < 1272945221 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :いいえ、ユニコードがある。でも、あなたのIRCクライアントは使えなさそう。 < 1272945227 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, that works. < 1272945241 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it just didn't like my character. Though it worked in Firefox... < 1272945428 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb installing ossv4 < 1272945431 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1272945614 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what would you say the best known esolang after BF is? < 1272945623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL. < 1272945651 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1272945668 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I want to do is write a forth enviornment for some esolang, but it needs to be able to run arbitrary code at runtime. < 1272945698 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could make a BF interpreter in vanilla BF, then add some self modifying capability, but the overhead would be pretty bad. < 1272945823 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm, I think I could just sort of translate BF commands to apply to a stack instead of the tape... < 1272945963 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-104.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272945980 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently that list is wrong.. hardware not recognized < 1272945994 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you just tried googling your chipset? < 1272946112 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens when you run 'modprobe snd_au8830' as root? < 1272946159 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FATAL: Module snd_au8830 not found. < 1272946172 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try 'modprobe snd-au8830' < 1272946176 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's strange, because I'm sure that a module siilar to that used to be there < 1272946190 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1272946196 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... What distro? < 1272946206 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ubuntu karmic < 1272946241 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about lsmod? < 1272946244 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1272946267 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oss_usb 125332 0 < 1272946268 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :osscore 603524 1 oss_usb < 1272946279 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure why it thinks I have a usb soundcard < 1272946284 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poll: should I learn vi or emacs this summer? < 1272946291 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vi < 1272946292 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both. < 1272946328 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a bonus some of your vi knowledge will help in less :) < 1272946355 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use emacs for programming, and vim for everything else. < 1272946389 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vi is pretty simple to learn, I think. < 1272946405 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emacs is hellish, but nothing is better than Inferior Haskell Mode... < 1272946423 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[DUO] /lib/modules/2.6.28-18-generic>where *8830* < 1272946423 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./kernel/sound/pci/au88x0/snd-au8830.ko < 1272946436 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I just need to downgrade my kernel to get my audio working again < 1272946463 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could go to the kernel source directory and run 'make modules_install' < 1272946480 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't compile this kernel < 1272946491 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1272946505 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: reboot < 1272946510 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should hehe < 1272946531 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know you can use modprobe with a path, but it might require some extra flags. < 1272946540 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's for the wrong kernel tho < 1272946554 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could I see your 'uname -a'? < 1272946579 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux DUO 2.6.31-20-generic #58-Ubuntu SMP Fri Mar 12 04:38:19 UTC 2010 x86_64 GNU/Linux < 1272946609 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, try modprobe'ing it anyway. In the worst case, you just reboot. < 1272946671 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If modprobe doesn't throw any errors, it should be fine, I think. < 1272946699 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cap11235: That's insmod. < 1272946701 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1272946710 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1272946739 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :insmod: error inserting '/lib/modules/2.6.28-18-generic/kernel/sound/pci/au88x0/snd-au8830.ko': -1 Invalid module format < 1272946745 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok... < 1272946746 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't look like it wants me to do that < 1272946750 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1272946751 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have apt-file installed? < 1272946761 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... Do believe you have a 2.4 insmod. < 1272946764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a solid WTF. < 1272946768 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no but I can < 1272946782 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His uname said it was 2.6.31 < 1272946796 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-get apt-file, then run 'apt-file update' as root < 1272946806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Yeah. < 1272946825 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You would do well to use modules for your kernel. < 1272946852 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is using a premade kernel. < 1272946867 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and he's using modules for a different such kernel. < 1272946878 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.6.28 != 2.6.31 < 1272946906 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but the 2.6.31 doesn't seem to have the module for his audio. < 1272946915 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-file will answer it... < 1272946920 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: nah.. just that the kernel/sound directory is missing in my 2.6.31 < 1272946950 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272947071 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay apt-file is done updating < 1272947107 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"apt-file search snd-au8830.ko" as root < 1272947135 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh.. you can use packages.ubuntu.com to do that too :) < 1272947152 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION learns something new everyday
< 1272947162 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice, though.. lots of results < 1272947205 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting.. seems like it sound be installing.. checking < 1272947270 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err that was not coherent, sorry < 1272947283 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are installing linux-image-2.6.31-14-generic? < 1272947305 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux-image-2.6.31-21-generic < 1272947311 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like an upgrade < 1272947416 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyhow, upgrading.. it's possible that the ossv4 install is what wiped out the modules < 1272947429 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlikely, though. < 1272947432 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had sound before, it was just crappy < 1272947475 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, we will see. Will you go with OSS or ALSA after? < 1272947500 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never had any trouble with alsa until recently, dunno what happened < 1272947524 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe pulseaudio was just being a bitch? < 1272947530 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only way I could get audio to play was oss, otherwise it was just noise < 1272947557 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried uninstalling pulseaudio and using esound instead, and neither < 1272947566 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk reboot < 1272947571 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for your help btw < 1272947594 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1272947835 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272948475 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-212-50.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272950187 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This chain mail can't even decide if it wants you to pass it on to 5 or 10 people < 1272950210 0 :Oranjer1!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272950222 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15! < 1272950739 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1272950984 0 :Oranjer1!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1272953180 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :til chain mail over the usps 1) used to exist and 2) is now illegal < 1272953454 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1272953780 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1272954976 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@174-16-206-158.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272954983 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1272954985 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1272956449 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1272956453 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1272956859 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272957878 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272958145 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION :( at Network Headache becoming unimplemented
< 1272958157 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make an Erlang implementation! < 1272959268 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should use Chinese characters for writing everything. (我 should 使 漢 字 for 書ing 毎物.) Why? Because I said so dammit. (Why? Because 私 言d so dammit!) < 1272959288 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, it is late and I am moderately silly and should go to bed. < 1272959609 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1272959927 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ninight all < 1272959936 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually turning my computer off tonight.. it seems a bit hot < 1272959999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1272960000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1272960686 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1272961096 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272961812 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: null < 1272961849 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1272961903 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-104.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272961913 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that was fun lol < 1272961927 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lost video.. but I solved it < 1272963755 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm? < 1272964405 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1272965420 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1272967946 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1272968788 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41-132-16-47.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1272970235 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272970631 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1272972583 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1272972651 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272973350 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my paper about Turing machines http://bit.ly/cL93k3 < 1272973370 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23 pages, and I'm still gauging how finishing it screwed up my sleep schedule < 1272973397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely, or just a lot < 1272973510 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just spent the last night writing a case note on the SCO v. Novell case for the "Law in Network Society" course. Not that one less than sleepy night will have any long-lasting effects, but right now the tiredness. Especially with that particular topic. < 1272973569 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not sure. I might still be able to recover, but I woke up at 3 AM (3.75 hours ago) and I'm just going with that for now < 1272973578 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Courteous of SCO to keep doing the insane, though; their latest (April 27th) filings means I'm oh-so-topical. < 1272973593 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the paper does have pretty diagrams though. if you like visualizations of tape or nicely formatted state diagrams < 1272973597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCO, or suing a dead horse < 1272973616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there's your title) < 1272973643 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i guess it needs to be in finnish < 1272973649 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, English. < 1272973653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1272973721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that SCO "dead horse" gives about 3410 google hits.
< 1272973736 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1272973740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that isn't the latest filing any more < 1272973748 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latest is about them selling off lots and lots of little stuff < 1272973753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like domain names, laptops and forklift trucks < 1272973777 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1272973790 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's part of the bankrutpcy case, though, not SCO v. Novell. < 1272973797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, good point < 1272973819 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though like I complained a moment ago; "One has to wonder about the whole bankruptcy mechanism. I was under the impression that the idea was that the company's creditors would get, in a reasonably fair manner, as much out of the company as possible; I'm not sure how well that is served by feeding $100k/month to some sort of "crisis management" company." < 1272973873 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to focus a bit; summarizing the whole SCO story in three pages would have been a bit too ambitious, so I just covered the parts related to the "who owns Unix" question. < 1272974007 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has aspects of the farcical; after losing in court, they appeal and demand a jury trial; the court of appeals surprisingly-ishly agrees and grants that; the jury unanimously says the same thing the court did; so now they want either a special overrule-the-jury judgement, or a new jury, because "the jury simply got it wrong" (direct quote). < 1272974068 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible they're just not very good losers. < 1272974142 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1272974223 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The most recent thing of list of sold stuff is a funny read too, though. Purchaser: "Deseret Industries", "Canon Copier - not functional", consideration: $0, "donated". < 1272974253 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've also sold 2 boxes of tape for $399 via eBay to a "Bouz1956". < 1272974285 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And donated 50 file cabinets to "Farm Equipment business". < 1272974337 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Supreme Court made a filing in that case recently, btw, giving SCO more time to respond to Novell's case < 1272974361 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are they donating when they're in bankruptcy, I wonder? < 1272974421 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly no-one would have paid them for a broken copier, and junking it would've actually cost money. < 1272974450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I would assume you could get at least nominal compensation for 50 file cabinets. < 1272974490 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1272974570 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272975033 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1272975093 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41-132-16-47.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1272975209 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1272975418 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1272976319 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That encoding: Split the program to segments, splitting at '[' and ']'. There will be 2k+1 segments (possibly empty), where k is number of loops. < 1272976383 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then for each segment, write it as base-6 number (least-signficant first, using some mapping of 6 remaining instructions to digits). < 1272976485 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then add (6^(l+1)-1)/5 (where l is length of segment) to number obtained in order to make encodings of different length segments unique. < 1272976523 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every possible different segment gets different number and every non-negative number corresponds to some segment < 1272976606 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then take 1st (LSB) bit of 1st segment, 1st bit of 2nd segment, ..., 1st bit of 2k+1st segment, 2nd bit of 1st segment, 2nd bit of 2nd segment and so on. Concatenate bits in this order to get new number (X_2) < 1272976610 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and? you still haven't gotten to the hard part... < 1272976634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..darn. < 1272976678 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, still not... < 1272976703 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make ordered tree that has root node and node for every loop. For nested loops, node for nested loop is child of node for nesting loop. Encode this tree using bijection to nonnegative integers (I haven't worked this out yet) to get X_1. < 1272976746 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that X_2 has 1st bit of 1st segment as LSB (the order goes that way). < 1272976787 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then take 1st bit of X_1, 1st bit of X_2, 2nd bit of X_1, 2nd bit of X_2 (and so on), concatenating (1st bit of X_1 winds up as LSB). Resulting X, the encoding of program. < 1272976821 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As said, I haven't fully solved encoding ordered trees... < 1272976884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that X_1 encoding is inefficient if segment lengths vary widely, as discussed yesterday. < 1272976899 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1272976919 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X_2 you mean? < 1272976924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the < 1272976944 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried to correct that 1 to 2 at _least_ twice O_O < 1272976955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have _no_ idea how it got through :D < 1272976993 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272977006 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Encoding Lost Kingdom, with any reasonable way to get X_1, X_2 will be much larger, yielding final number with 80M-90M digits... < 1272977020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, X_1 is just an encoding of the [ and ] only < 1272977032 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, it is. < 1272977075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is possible that one of the already used methods will be good enough for that < 1272977086 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't that much extra to blow things up < 1272977132 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are C_k (kth catalan number) different structures for program with k loops... < 1272977141 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh those again right < 1272977224 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That can be used to simplify(?) problem to encoding ordered trees to encoding ordered trees with k nodes to [0, C_k - 1]. < 1272977258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, X_1 will likely be much smaller than X_2, again wasting 0 bits < 1272977261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1272977290 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One could vary spacing of X_1 bits (as long as the positions form fixed sequence). < 1272977311 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that can get at most almost half of the bits. < 1272977331 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we already have the triangular method for combining two numbers < 1272977466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it's possible that _too_ is actually unbalanced when the size difference is large. < 1272977505 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the combined number is on the order of (m+n)^2/2 < 1272977506 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Also a minor nit; you say "add (6^(l+1)-1)/5" -- so the length 0 segment maps to (6^(0+1)-1)/5 = 1, the 6 possible length 1 segments to numbers starting from (6^(1+1)-1)/5 = 7, etc; I guess you mean without the "+1" in the exponent? < 1272977530 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes. < 1272977649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mn is about what you'd get by concatenating the bits, this is twice that for equal numbers but much larger if m is 1, say < 1272977686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n^2/2 vs. n < 1272977701 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1272977754 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact the triangular method may have about the _same_ size as the bit interleaving method, come to think of it. < 1272977781 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one number very small, both waste about the number of bits of the other < 1272977800 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Do you want to generalize the so-called "triangular" method formulas to some sort of hyperpyramidal method so that it combines N numbers at once? That sounds like it'd be funky. < 1272977811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: already did that < 1272977819 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I had missed that. < 1272977863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never looked much at reversing it, that would seem to involve nth roots at least < 1272977905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C(x1+x2+...+xn,2) + C(x1+...+x(n-1),2) + ... + C(x1+x2, 2) + x1 < 1272977910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er no < 1272977921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*C(x1+x2+...+xn,n) + C(x1+...+x(n-1),n-1) + ... + C(x1+x2, 2) + x1 < 1272977935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess x1 = C(x1,1) < 1272978067 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears that triangular numbers might be sightly smaller (at most 1 bit difference per combining). < 1272978140 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the purpose of this discussion, btw? finding a way to compress Lost Kingdom as far as possible? < 1272978142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :difference to what? < 1272978146 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If numbers are approximately equal, they come even. So unbalanced case is the better case. < 1272978149 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh < 1272978178 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Bijection of BF with natural numbers. < 1272978185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: aha < 1272978188 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: no, unbalanced is horrible for both, assuming you'd want the combined number of bits to be approx. the sum < 1272978217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean just the difference between triangular and interleaving < 1272978313 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, there might be more difference. 1st number being 2^100 and 2nd being 2^500 would give 1002 bit number with interleaving. The triangular number would be 1/2 * (2^500 + 2^100) * (2^500 + 2^100 - 1) + 2^500. This is approximately 1/2 * 2^1000 = 2^999. So 2 bit difference. < 1272978387 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about if one number is about square root of the other... < 1272978394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^100 and 2^200 say < 1272978419 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so as far from both the "one tiny" and "about equal" cases as possible) < 1272978451 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interleaving, 401 i assume < 1272978501 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell 1/2 * (2^100 + 2^200) * (2^100 + 2^200 - 1) + 2^200 < 1272978504 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.2911249390434543e120 < 1272978509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1272978517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell logBase 2 $ 1/2 * (2^100 + 2^200) * (2^100 + 2^200 - 1) + 2^200 < 1272978518 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :399.0 < 1272978538 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so still not much difference < 1272978611 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell logBase 2 $ 1/2 * (2^500 + 2^1000) * (2^500 + 2^1000 - 1) + 2^1000 < 1272978613 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinity < 1272978616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1272978669 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're the necromather, why don't you figure out something that gives you the sum of their sizes? < 1272978696 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Okay, so I just wanted to get to use the word "necromather".) < 1272978712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had that fibonacci thing, but it has a logBase phi 2 overhead < 1272978716 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For hyperpyramidal thing, I get difference in order of k log_2 k bits... Which would be about 650kb with 42k segments (Lost Kingdom-sized program)... < 1272978774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the initial C(x1+...+xn, n) term obviously dominates < 1272978778 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a lot of difference, considering that number will have 150M-160M bits anyway... < 1272978793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1272978865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, later. < 1272978870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1272978978 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So variable spacing in interleaving X_1 and X_2 saves much more (Easily 100Mb with Lost Kingdom) than using hyperpyramidals instead of simple bit interleaving (hardly even 1Mb). < 1272979016 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And bit interleaving is probably way faster. < 1272979389 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bit interleaving is perhaps a bit (no pun intended) inelegent to write in the usual arithmetic operations provided. At least compared to the triangles. < 1272979780 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272981351 0 :base3!~base3@host81-141-232-77.wlms-broadband.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272981398 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know if there's a freenode channel for discussion of literate programming? < 1272982581 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1272984043 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1272984498 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1272985504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hi there, I don't remember if you told me (or if I even asked) about delay simulation back when I asked about vhdl simulation for linux several weeks ago. ghdl seems to only do "logic" simulation with no delay (which is of course also useful). < 1272985523 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it does delay simulation, but you need to write the delays into the source < 1272985526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1272985530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a <= b OR c after 10 ns < 1272985552 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how other delay simulators work too, just the commercial ones have tools to automatically write all the delays into the source < 1272985560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's commercially sensitive information, pretty obviously < 1272985575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about delay simulation as in "delay of this stuff from the syntheis program output" kind of stuff? < 1272985589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1272985596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so those tend to be windows only? < 1272985607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actually, they mostly run on Linux too, they're just very expensive < 1272985610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1272985615 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1272985629 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably enough commercial microchip design companies use Linux that it's worth supporting it on that < 1272985665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, isn't the manufacture of the FPGA interested in selling the hardware rather than the development software? < 1272985676 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, they make money from both < 1272985700 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally there's a crappy free version of the dev software, and a very expensive professional version that contains all the features that businesses actually need, like delay annotation < 1272985713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1272985833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about universities? There should be an interest in getting students familiar with your products rather than those from the competitors. Looks like conflicting interests there when it comes to deciding what the price should be < 1272985851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: universities generally get copies for free, that's how I got mine < 1272985864 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272985890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but students don't spent all the time in the lab, wouldn't it make sense to be able to do some such work from home as well and so on < 1272985944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also ghdl seems strange in some respects. For example what is the point of that work-obj93.cf file... < 1272985958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it looks like it should be very hard to make ghdl behave nicely together with makefiles < 1272985961 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: VHDL's compilation method is bizarre < 1272985973 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can define one entity in more than one way < 1272985979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes I know about that < 1272985993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not fully about the reasons for it though < 1272985995 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's designed to allow hot-swapping bits of the program < 1272986019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have, say, a delay-annotated architecture as an autogenerated second architecture for your entities < 1272986031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the reason I heard was "sometimes you can't synthesise your original variant, so you write another alternative one" < 1272986040 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that as well < 1272986041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some issues with that reason too though < 1272986049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, why not just replace the old one instead < 1272986069 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :often you have a synthesis design that can't be simulated, and a simulation design that can't be synthesised < 1272986073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both bought from a third partyt < 1272986074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*party < 1272986075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1272986091 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the simulation design looks like C or an imperative language like that < 1272986107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the synthesis design is along the lines of "set bit 123 to 1, set bit 124 to 0, set bit 125 to 1..." which is no use to anyone < 1272986116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also wtf at the file name here (from ghdl tutorial, just to check that the install works): e~hello.o < 1272986121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~ in a filename wtf < 1272986187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm, wouldn't it be "set bit 123 to bit 2 xor bit 43" or such? or what do you mean < 1272986206 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, I mean the individual control bits inside the FPGA < 1272986209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1272986232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but isn't that more like the binary file? As in, it isn't vhdl any more then < 1272986234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this stuff's all deliberately undocumented, just to add to the fun, so you /have/ to buy the code from a third-party rather than writing it yourself < 1272986240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it's basically just a binary file < 1272986265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although sometimes they get converted to ASCII and it's just a long list of numbers separated by commas < 1272986272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, someone should make an open source fpga or such, or at least a well documented one. < 1272986289 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :setup costs are too high < 1272986295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd cost millions to get the things manufactured < 1272986306 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, I don't understand the FPGA market at all < 1272986308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably that would actually be a competitive advantage, you can claim you, unlike all others, don't do vendor lock-in < 1272986329 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: effectively that would be vendor lock-in, on the basis that all the /other/ vendors are locked in and won't accept your programs < 1272986382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, sure, but this avoids bitrot presumably. Even if the vendor stops maintaining software to work with very old no longer produced FPGAs, third parties could still do it < 1272986416 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think it would be hilarious to put you in the same room as a manager in an FPGA company < 1272986424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1272986428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually you'd give up talking to each other because you didn't speak the same language < 1272986458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, I don't understand ghdl's compilation procedure, as in. It makes no sense at all < 1272986469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why for example ghdl -a first < 1272986478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's just say, it makes a lot more sense than the commercial ones, and leave it at that < 1272986483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how on earth does one make this work with a makefile < 1272986494 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just do the -a -e and so on in order < 1272986521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about that work-ob93.cf? < 1272986538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it seems to break make -j2 if you have many files for ghdl to compile in a project < 1272986542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: everything in VHDL is namespaced < 1272986548 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "work" is the default namespace < 1272986551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay... < 1272986553 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compiling something puts it /into/ that namespace, permanently < 1272986559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh okay... < 1272986563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can reference it from other VHDL files in the same directory < 1272986577 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, obviously, parallel make doesn't make sense unless you carefully separate the namespaces in advance < 1272986604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so things need to be compiled in the right order? What would happen if I ran ghdl -a on a file that uses another one, before I ran it on that other file < 1272986636 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC it's like compiling and linking; so long as all the entity declarations are available, you can do -a on everything then -e on everything < 1272986650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't work if you do -a -e on each file individually < 1272986662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I was thinking something like ghdl on each file to create some intermediate format (could be done in parallel) then linking (not parallel of course) < 1272986669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this seems to completely break here < 1272986688 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, the analysis is just basically looking for signatures < 1272986695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the elaboration looks at the actual code < 1272986705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so that shared file is only touched by -a or? < 1272986737 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a nice mnemonic: -a looks at the entities, -e looks at the architectures < 1272986741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1272986745 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think it's written by -a and read by -e < 1272986765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will be one very messy makefile still < 1272986790 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1272986795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't make the .cf file depend on anything properly < 1272986802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, for added fun, the commercial tools generate makefiles, then run them via cygwin < 1272986806 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, the Xilinx ones do < 1272986813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if two files were changed that will not do the right thing... < 1272986830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wtf < 1272986852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more fun, because presumably they've paid Cygnus for a license for all this < 1272986861 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Cygwin is GPL if you don't pay, license of your choice if you do) < 1272986884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but what about the software in cygwin? cygnus doesn't own gnu make and so on < 1272986889 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :current theory: the tools date from before Windows existed < 1272986902 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I actually don't know, maybe it isn't GNU make they're using, but some other make < 1272986908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1272986915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you think the tools are that old btw? < 1272986945 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of any other plausible explanation < 1272986955 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the fact that they don't run properly on 64-bit systems or windows 7 < 1272986959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you mean they were written for *nix? < 1272986961 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we had to set up a Windows XP VM just to be able to use them < 1272986967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think they were originally written for *nix < 1272986975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also ouch at 64-bit < 1272986980 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would explain the Linux support, and the arbitrary and unexpected use of cygwin < 1272986989 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there's a 64-bit version, but it's missing loads of features < 1272986997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see.. < 1272987023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and the 32-bit version doesn't run on 64-bit windows? < 1272987039 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct < 1272987041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the only reason for that would be that they use 16-bit code... < 1272987052 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, actually it does, but many of its features are missing if you do < 1272987066 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly only in later versions of windows, though < 1272987066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can no longer run such code when in long mode on x86_64 < 1272987074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh another ghdl wtf: ldd indicates that the compiled program links against libgnat... < 1272987084 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that doesn't surprise me < 1272987088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1272987091 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL was intentionally designed close to ADA < 1272987095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1272987100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't surprise me if some of the libraries were, as a result, virtually identical < 1272987108 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus linking against libgnat was easier than rewriting it < 1272987109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also links libz < 1272987118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which when you consider it, is even more wtf < 1272987120 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's so you can output the wave file compressed < 1272987130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is needed, considering how big and repetitive the things are < 1272987156 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ghdl's major use is to run the resulting program to produce a wave file, then look at it on gtkwave or something) < 1272987160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and now to figure out which files a make clean target would remove. I still haven't figured out how to properly do dependencies for generated files... < 1272987172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it would be a timestamp file for every file to make it work < 1272987176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: just delete the entire directory and restore the source from backup < 1272987182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1272987194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghdl --clean? Do I dare ask what that does... < 1272987203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1272987207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or how it does it rather < 1272987224 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's described as "remove generated files", presumably it's the inverse of the compile process < 1272987240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait a second, why restore? Doesn't ghdl support out of tree builds? Or at least separate object file directory or such < 1272987264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab, phone rang... annoyingly < 1272987271 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the concept of "out of tree builds" probably doesn't exist in VHDL generally < 1272987296 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the commercial tools make it rather unclear that anything exists besides the project, source and generated files and binaries and etc are all bundled together in arbitrary entities < 1272987305 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to look at the directory structure by hand to figure out how it's done < 1272987821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1272987826 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: openttd time < 1272987845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it does make version control somewhat annoying presumably < 1272987861 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they come with hand-rolled version control < 1272987867 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is basically a menu option to make a checkpoint < 1272987874 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which spends around half an hour backing up the entire project < 1272987893 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I /think/ it's actually just bundling it all into a .tgz behind the scenes, and the huge length of time is because it's backing up thousands of binaries as well as the sources < 1272987910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :half an hour? < 1272987914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how large is the project then < 1272987976 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1272988377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, when does a file need to be re-analysed? < 1272988382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in ghdl -a < 1272988396 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you change the entities in it, I think < 1272988400 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just always reanalyse it, it saves trouble < 1272988404 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not like it takes that long < 1272988407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1272988430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are non-manual incremental builds even feasible at all? < 1272988585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how does programs decide which of the defined implementations (or whatever the term is) of a given entity to use? < 1272988593 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea < 1272988593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs as in simulations and synthesis < 1272988609 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably there's some way to specify one, otherwise it picks one arbitrarily < 1272988620 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but so far I've never been able to specify one, just had to go with the one it happened to use < 1272988625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how often have you used multiple implementations? < 1272988690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only when told to by the teachers to prove I could < 1272988710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume it would be interesting to test multiple ones to compare that they do the same thing (for all valid inputs if combinatorial at least, a bit harder if you have something with state) < 1272988711 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, there isn't much of a point unless you're doing automated annotation, etc, or have to buy simulation and synthesis implementations from a third party < 1272988727 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or worse, one synthesis and three simulation implementations designed for different sorts of simulations < 1272988733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1272988750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you get 3 different ones? < 1272988766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two I can imagine: with/without delay < 1272988776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's more than one sort of delay you can measure < 1272988790 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort-of "delay in theory" vs. "delay with this particular place-and-route" < 1272988812 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second is basically like profile-guided optimisation, except instead of optimising the compile with the results from a run, you simulate the source with the results from a compile < 1272988869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how can you do delay in theory without knowing the routing? < 1272988880 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's approximate I think < 1272988885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you just consider the delay in gates, but not in wires? < 1272988901 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, it's not like there's any documentation on how the stuff /works/ < 1272988932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it seems useless if you don't know what it actually simulates. < 1272988948 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the info's bound to be available somewhere < 1272988963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1272988964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably by phoning up a friend you have at Xilinx and asking them directly, that's how we got most of the actual useful information we use < 1272988972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1272989011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, don't they wonder at any point: "Hmm, will this crappy stuff make us look bad?" < 1272989018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theory: this is meta-job security, people making sure that if they're fired from Xilinx or Altera they'll always be able to get a job just consulting at companies to explain htf you use their products < 1272989026 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, because it's par for the course < 1272989033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I heard so far I concluded to avoid that brand if possible < 1272989033 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they look bad, but not any worse than any of their competitorss < 1272989035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1272989035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*competitors < 1272989104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and yet no one tried to increase their market share by making themselves look better than their competitors? < 1272989122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, because their customers care more about features than usability < 1272989138 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1272989152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason management care more about the advertised list of features when buying hideously expensive microchip synthesisers/simulators < 1272989161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than the actual usability for the employees who have to use the things < 1272989180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what do we learn from this? I think one of the things may be "free market is yet again proved not to work" < 1272989239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, are most of those feature actually that useful though? < 1272989250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, what did you expect? < 1272989258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1272989275 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :half are actually counterproductive, in that you're told to use the feature rather than doing it the way you'd do it by hand without the feature, which would have been easier < 1272989299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what do big companies like, say, IBM or such do then? Don't they at least have a bit more sense. < 1272989317 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they just make their own internal documentation for other people's products, I imagine < 1272989321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1272989335 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then claim ISO 9000 compliance as a side effect < 1272989346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did I came to think of bankstar suddenly < 1272989351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISO 9000? < 1272989393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is ISO 9000? Or was that just a random number? < 1272989416 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's basically a pointless "standard" < 1272989419 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISO 9000 is a family of stuff, mostly about having business processes that are all documented to the tiniest detail. < 1272989422 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which companies claim compliance to < 1272989428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1272989431 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it's about documenting everything you do and always doing it the same way < 1272989434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is also all about Quality. < 1272989444 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless of what that process actually /is/, or whether it makes sense < 1272989465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :managers think it's very important, although none of them can explain why < 1272989491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw, I have a hard time seeing how FPGA vendors can enforce vendor lock in, after all VHDL is an ISO (or was it IEEE?) standard. < 1272989507 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they don't lock in the language, but the source < 1272989516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine if you had to rent your libc from a commercial vendor < 1272989517 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like that < 1272989537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, find , -name '*.fileext' to find the vhdl files? then import it into another system from another vendor? < 1272989542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, a better example would be if libc was open-source, but you had to rent a whole bunch of random libraries < 1272989559 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Find from the comma-directory. < 1272989576 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, you can't do that; partly because the files are massively obfuscated, partly because they're written in incredibly system-specific ways, partly because you have to agree to a licence not to do that, and partly because of the insane DRM involved over the whole process < 1272989580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, rent? Do you pay per month for those FPGA synthesisers and such!? < 1272989590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, typo :P < 1272989597 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the synthesisers, you pay per version, effectively < 1272989603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1272989607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't pay, because of the free versions given to universities) < 1272989611 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you rent the libraries < 1272989621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but if you write your code in vhdl I can't see how you just move the files elsewhere < 1272989625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like multipliers you normally get for free (because the open-source versions are just as good) < 1272989646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but things like ethernet modules you mostly just get the binaries, and they're specific to a specific version of a specific processor < 1272989647 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You write your code in C, so you can switch operating systems with abandon, right? < 1272989671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, okay, C itself is a bit annoyingly limited, rather more like POSIX < 1272989691 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: let's just say, there aren't things like ethernet libraries in the VHDL standard < 1272989694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you can go to any *nix vendor in theory (sure I admit there are some compat issues, and there are always bugs) < 1272989704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about open source vhdl for that? < 1272989716 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :open-source vhdl exists < 1272989725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the chip designers go out of their way to not give you the info needed to use it < 1272989742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenCores has quite a collection, I believe. Never had had an occasion to browse, though. < 1272989743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sure you need to interface the pins manually, but a lot of the stuff, like building ethernet frames would be vendor independent, no? < 1272989755 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. I tried and failed for two weeks to discover which pins on the chip were connected to which features on the demo board of the demo board we have < 1272989770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :demo board of a demo board? < 1272989775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what happened there) < 1272989783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm an OpenCores member, partly as a protest against all this BS < 1272989799 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although OpenCores is pretty wtfy itself, it just manages to be a lot less wtfy than the Xilinx (and presumably Altera) stuff < 1272989810 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you misparsed the sentence < 1272989810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, where did you get the ethernet hardware from? The same vendor? < 1272989820 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it was connected to the chip, physically < 1272989824 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we could tell it was working < 1272989828 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we still don't know how to use it < 1272989853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well you wouldn't have a demo board in real production hardware would you? < 1272989890 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you wouldn't; except, to add to the fun, the tools that you use to create all the ethernet stuff, etc, generate it assuming that you're using the same connections as on the demo board < 1272989909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case you could take a third party ethernet hardware (the contact and presumably some other things, I don't know exactly how much of the ethernet hardware can be done in an FPGA...) and just build your own < 1272989956 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be pretty expensive just to build the hardware to connect the FPGA to the ethernet hardware < 1272989965 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need to do things like generate a circuit board, etc < 1272989982 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and FPGAs have pins so dense that you can't do it by hand, you pretty much need an automatic multilayer circuit board maker machine < 1272989994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, isn't there already ethernet hardware out there from third parties? < 1272990013 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: of course, it's connecting it to the FPGA that's the issue, not the hardware itself < 1272990047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, a third party one would most probably come with docs (since there would be no other way for users to use it, right?) < 1272990061 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1272990063 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you'd be surprised < 1272990068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1272990074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for third-party hardware, the docs have ranged all the way from brilliant to useless < 1272990095 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the normal way to use the hardware with useless docs is to find decent docs from a competitor's product that does the same thing, then use those < 1272990104 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they all try to be pin-compatible with each other < 1272990112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, an informal standard? < 1272990122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, pretty much < 1272990139 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thousands of them, one for each sort of hardware component you could imagine < 1272990153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well that should simplify things, there is *bound* to be someone else who already interfaced this informal standard and who made something open source for it < 1272990166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for the more common components < 1272990179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the problem is, it's pairs of components you worry about < 1272990184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, that hardware + that FPGA < 1272990201 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most individual pairs haven't been done yet (most people can neither afford to work with FPGAs, nor put up with them even if they could afford it) < 1272990210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay, you have to do the pin layout anyway, surely most of the time you need some custom hardware anyway < 1272990214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and instructions for that sort of thing have a rather short half-life < 1272990228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because features keep being changed or breaking at random or moved to different programs, etc < 1272990234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the FPGA programming software < 1272990261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so okay, a lot of the ethenet example is device independent, couldn't you do something like driver + pin_mapper, where you just had to write the latter bit < 1272990279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would just be some short file listing which pins you mapped to what for the ethernet hardware < 1272990288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that you're massively discouraged from doing that bit < 1272990288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems pretty sensible < 1272990296 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want a bit of fun, have a look at what the pin mapper software actually /is/ < 1272990300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a massive and almost unusable GUI < 1272990307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I invented the word "pin mapper" here < 1272990313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1272990320 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last time I used it, I clicked on things at random, then figured out where its output file was, then looked at the format and edited it by hand, more or less < 1272990321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know it referred to a specific existing software < 1272990325 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amusingly, the output file was short and simple < 1272990330 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it is specific existing software < 1272990336 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a GUI that fills the entire screen, and uses all of it < 1272990345 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where changing anything requires going through two nested dialog boxes < 1272990354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway an FPGA would often be pretty useless if you can't interface your own custom hardware as well. Which would presumably include things like custom sensor devices or whatever < 1272990356 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I completely fail to understand how it can be /that/ complex, btw < 1272990373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes me too < 1272990384 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it seems that the trend nowadays is for FPGAs to be used standalone and communicate via ethernet or I2C or whatever with the other components < 1272990388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seems bizarre to me < 1272990402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what I was thinking about was more something like: #define ETH_TX pin1732 < 1272990403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1272990405 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably, you'd use an ASIC if you were using enough of them to actually be worth shipping in a commercial project < 1272990406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a file with such < 1272990413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that would be used for the generic driver < 1272990416 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's pretty much what the .hcf file it's editing is < 1272990421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's a different format, ofc < 1272990427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, that was C syntax < 1272990428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not VHDL, it's in its own format) < 1272990431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be rather silly < 1272990467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait a second < 1272990473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I2C or ethernet? < 1272990477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a gap there < 1272990500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, isn't I2C rather slow? < 1272990516 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on what you're using it for < 1272990524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, somewhat fast memory < 1272990528 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware that does anything but calculating tends to be intrinsically rather slow < 1272990536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, lets say you want to use a FPGA to do ray-tracing < 1272990538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't use I2C for the memory, agreed < 1272990550 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd probably just use the demo board, and connect it to your computer over ethernet or PCI or something < 1272990551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but using ethernet for memory would be *very* silly < 1272990557 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the demo boards often come with PCI connectors) < 1272990568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, using ethernet would be silly for anything but other "nodes" or such < 1272990598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, a demo board seems rather useless if you want to sell this product with an FPGA doing ray tracing < 1272990617 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you don't, though; FPGAs are normally used internally < 1272990619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want to put it on a PCIe board with memory basically < 1272990621 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't care about how ridiculous it looks < 1272990635 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are companies which do just sell PCIe boards with FPGAs and memory, though < 1272990640 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could use one of those < 1272990642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I remember reading about an FPGA-based rendering product, commercial < 1272990647 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unfortunately, the documentation is equally insane...) < 1272990661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FPGA because it was rather niche and ASIC would have been uneconomical < 1272990680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sigh... < 1272990751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, actually when it comes to cost for producing open source FPGAs, isn't there some thing for universities to group together on one wafer and do various projects on different parts of it? < 1272990762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read about that somewhere < 1272990780 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly, but you'd still be spending a million divided by the number of projects, which is still likely to be quite a lot < 1272990784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a few circuits for each project, and lots and lots of projects < 1272990793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1272990860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, have you reverse engineered that file format for the pin mapper? < 1272990891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if that is required) < 1272990902 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's probably documented somewhere < 1272990907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the format's incredibly simple as it is < 1272990911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah good < 1272990916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then just use that directly? < 1272990918 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically just key-value, with both quoted, separated by = < 1272990922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, that's what I do nowadays < 1272990926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1272990937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, be happy it wasn't some obfucated binary file format < 1272990959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1272991591 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1272991974 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1272992595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1272992651 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1272992894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about that genetic algorithm to build a circuit on an FPGA thingy, somewhat well known iirc < 1272992904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if things are that undocumented how did they manage that < 1272992918 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :genetic algos work pretty well on undocumented platforms < 1272992925 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably, better than regular algos < 1272992942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes but they would have still had to figure out where to put the input and output into the genetically grown block < 1272992981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc they used a "square" of n components that were modified + a bit of fixed stuff to connect the inputs and output to the edges of this area < 1272992986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is very iirc though < 1272993072 0 :luko!~luko@85.159.104.244 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272993111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and iirc it did the genetic algorithm directly on the binary. Again only iirc < 1272993207 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@87.112.36.213.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272993214 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :-) < 1272993342 0 :luko!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1272993361 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You mean the http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/adrianth/ade.html thing? The one that distinguished between a 1 kHz and a 10 kHz tone with just 32 gates, some of which weren't even connected (but still had an effect on the circuit). < 1272993376 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not sure if there's any details available through the page, though.) < 1272993378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes that sounds like the one < 1272993451 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in one of the Science of Discworld books too. :p < 1272993640 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it distinguished between two waveforms using only combinatorial logic, which is obviously impossible < 1272993651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so obviously it was exploiting non-ideal behaviour of the components it was made from < 1272993694 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1272993707 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; but it's still nifty. < 1272993751 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Virtual Organisms mentions something about evolved gate arrays. If the gates which aren't connected to the circuit are removed, it stops working. < 1272993753 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird. < 1272993794 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've ordered a FPGA dev board to experiment with it myself < 1272993909 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://swtch.com/r.zip -- a sort of a zip-quine; it expands to itself, except in a subdirectory r/. < 1272993936 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know where it came from, might be old; link via another channel. < 1272993959 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was being discussed a few days ago on reddit < 1272993969 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :along with .gz and .tar.gz versions < 1272993986 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1272993994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's in one of the Science of Discworld books too. :p <-- yes I think that is where I first read about it < 1272994012 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A compression file format is a bit of a natural platform for that sort of stuff. < 1272994071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how do you manage to get itself back, doesn't zip files contain some sort of checksum which might make the whole thing harder? < 1272994142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I would assume it complicates things; but the checksum's not exactly cryptographically strong. < 1272994160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crc? < 1272994229 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some CRC-32 variant, IIRC. < 1272994243 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1272994331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1272994445 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ISSNC 2010, 17th International Summer School in Novel Computing"; presumably for people who are both computer scientists and novelists. < 1272994649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh? < 1272994765 0 :cap11235!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1272994828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what free alternatives are there to ghdl (if any)? < 1272994835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :free open source I mean < 1272994836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of any < 1272994840 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't mean there aren't any, ofc < 1272994849 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does mean I can't point you to them < 1272994860 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: null < 1272994905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1272995057 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1272995442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is the simplest way to make a test suite or such for a (stateless) entity in vhdl? < 1272995454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I just want to test all input signals and get a time diagram < 1272995458 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write it in imperative VHDL < 1272995467 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something as simple as using initialised signals < 1272995473 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :together with a <= not a after 10 ns < 1272995476 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b <= not b after 20 ns < 1272995479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1272995479 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c <= not c after 40 ns < 1272995481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1272995495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a <= a + 1 if they're integers rather than std_logics < 1272995549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, shouldn't there just be a way to do: for each number in range 0000 1111... and then use that to generate the time diagram < 1272995553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see what I mean < 1272995565 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but that doesn't specify the timings < 1272995582 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a <= conv_std_logic(conv_integer(a)+1) after 10 ns < 1272995585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the thing I want to test have no timing info currently < 1272995586 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, that's pretty simple < 1272995588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1272995593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1272995647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the example "test bench" at http://ghdl.free.fr/ghdl/A-full-adder.html seems quite confusing < 1272995657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, forgot you ignore links < 1272995662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was from the ghdl manual < 1272995668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test benches can be written to be synthesisable, it's harder then < 1272995669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test bench for a full adder < 1272995676 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the reason is that test benches are normally full of asserts < 1272995684 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, actually test the outputs, rather than just generating them < 1272995690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses: < 1272995691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : type pattern_array is array (natural range <>) of pattern_type; < 1272995692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : constant patterns : pattern_array := < 1272995698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then a list of the binary numbers < 1272995700 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally you rewrite what the circuit's meant to do in imperative VHDL< and compare < 1272995708 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, natural range <> < 1272995715 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL array syntax is so cute < 1272995718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ? < 1272995723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does natural range <> mean? < 1272995797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also this seems weird: assert false report "end of test" severity note; < 1272995814 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: welcome to output to stderr < 1272995825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god < 1272995825 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"severity note" means it isn't a problem that the assert fails < 1272995832 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the assert failure means it gets output < 1272995835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why does it end with wait; < 1272995844 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to prevent an infinite loop < 1272995849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1272995851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I* < 1272995858 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1272995876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are missing the point of VHDL if you don't see why you need a pause instruction /somewhere/ in a loop, even an implicit one around a process with no trigger conditions < 1272995912 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's a nice fun reversal from most languages; in most languages, you put an infinite loop at the end of a program for it to not terminate, in VHDL you put an infinite wait at the end of a process for it to terminate) < 1272995930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I can see why it makes sense in the actual thing you are synthesising. But not in a test suite for simulation no < 1272995946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the issue is that such test benches abuse vhdl basically < 1272995946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's the way VHDL thinks < 1272995955 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you still have too much of an imperative mindset < 1272995995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you didn't get around to describing what natural range <> actually meant. < 1272996006 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not actually sure < 1272996016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1272996021 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it defines an array type whose bounds are determined later when it's actually used < 1272996026 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than having fixed bounds for all instances of the type < 1272996031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw, any idea about this bit: for i in patterns'range loop < 1272996034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ' to be specific < 1272996056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, :D < 1272996071 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: think of ' in VHDL like -> in C++ < 1272996076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see < 1272996080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it basically accesses metadata < 1272996083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively, it's the cast operator < 1272996087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, String'("Hello, world!") < 1272996101 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which needs to be cast to a string because "" is ambiguous without knowing what type it is) < 1272996114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(imagine "1XXUW", is that a string or a std_logic_vector?) < 1272996141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I see what that array is, it isn't actually a binary count, it is expected output as well < 1272996179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I couldn't tell, I'm still learning vhdl < 1272996191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes it might be ambiguous < 1272996222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm somewhat confused by the use of quotes in VHDL < 1272996242 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: '' quotes one thing, "" quotes an array of things < 1272996256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see < 1272996263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what is "thing" here? < 1272996266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. '0' is a single std_logic (or possibly something else, you might need to cast it depending on context), "0000" is four std_logics forming a std_logic_vector (again, it might be something else) < 1272996282 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "thing" is an arbitrary type, you need to cast unless it's clear from the context, which it usually is < 1272996289 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but quite often it's std_logic < 1272996359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1272996393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and when is that "bit" type used? < 1272996416 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very rarely, it's an imperative boolean < 1272996428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I see < 1272996431 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need to be a) writing imperative code, and b) happening to need a boolean < 1272996436 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the summer school thing was just a miscellaneous ad from my inbox. "Surprisingly" it wasn't related to novels in the book sense at all; was more about robotics and such. < 1272996438 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that combination doesn't come up a lot < 1272996450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, where did the word "novel" come from then? < 1272996472 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might work for something like a flag variable (note, not flag signal) < 1272996480 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1. (6) fresh, new, novel -- (original and of a kind not seen before; "the computer produced a completely novel proof of a well-known theorem") < 1272996490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1272996520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how is verilog compared to vhdl btw? < 1272996546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used more in academia and less in the military; same feature set; syntax is C-like and rather sloppier than VHDL's < 1272996580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1272996596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and what about in industry < 1272996604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1272996607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1272996614 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although all the industrial tools default to VHDL, which is a clue < 1272996627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any linux tools for verilog btw? < 1272996668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no free ones that I know of < 1272996675 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the same expensive ones that do VHDL do Verilog too < 1272996707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1272996745 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are five open-source ones in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Verilog_simulators but it's anyone's guess how serious those are. < 1272996789 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The name (Verilog, as opposed to VHDL) is perhaps easier to twist into fancy nomenclature; cf. "Verilator", "VeriWell". < 1272996837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augh at the latter one < 1272996851 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1272997419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Copyright (C) 2004, 2005, 2008 Tristan Gingold -- tgingold AT free DOT fr < 1272997419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last modified: Thu Mar 16 04:39:49 CET 2006 " < 1272997424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from http://ghdl.free.fr/features.html < 1272997432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time travel may be involved < 1272997443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for ais: that was from ghdl web site) < 1272997529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and the copyright line does not seem to be site wide < 1272997536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor does the last modified date < 1272997544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is quite wtf < 1272997657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw, found an open source verilog simulation/synthesis tool (subproject of gEDA it seems) < 1272997668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl in about 1 hour < 1272998014 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1272998248 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: maybe he was using Apple's Time Machine [tm] < 1272998621 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1272998728 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1272998748 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1272998770 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272998857 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272998932 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.180.197 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272999145 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1272999424 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, the "Pattern Recognition Society of Finland" decided to award their yearly "best Master's thesis" award of 2009 to my thing. Now I'm feeling somewhat obligated to join their silly club. < 1272999451 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was your thesis? < 1272999477 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Methods for Spectral Envelope Estimation in Noise Robust Speech Recognition" < 1272999498 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently GSOC gave me a free membership in ACM for a year < 1272999593 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand there was a (very minor) spike in ACM student membership popularity when it turned out you could get access to Microsoft's "academic alliance" software that way. Or at least they bothered to put "Note! The membership does not give you access to Windows 7" on the sign-up page with red letters. < 1272999668 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe it wasn't red text. < 1272999681 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And just being a student gets you access to Windows Server 2008. < 1272999688 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But https://campus.acm.org/public/qj/QuickJoin/qj_control.cfm?form_type=Student still displays quite prominently "The Microsoft Developer Academic Alliance package DOES NOT contain Windows 7." < 1272999716 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have one Windows box here for when it's absolutely necessary, and I think it's running Server 2003 from the Dreamspark thing. < 1272999718 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think UW will get me access to various Microsoft softwares < 1272999737 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272999741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: If you're a student, you've got access to Microsoft softwares from Dreamspark. < 1272999753 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1272999754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note. That is not "college student", just "student". < 1272999765 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of them, yeah < 1272999770 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the university grants more < 1272999771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And technically, all they *check* is that you've got a student email account. < 1272999774 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1272999788 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd investigate more < 1272999791 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't care < 1272999796 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Dreamspark already nets you Server 2008 and Visual Studio. AKA most of the expensive dev software. :P < 1272999841 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only used this for the sake of virtualising an Active Directory setup so that I could figure out how to get Linux to use Active Directory for login for work... < 1272999871 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Server 2008 might not be the nicest workstation OS ever. At least I'm getting a bit bored having to type a reason for shutdown every time I turn off that Server 2003 box. (The "ok" button in the dialog is disabled until you write something in the "why you be shutting me down?" box.) < 1272999888 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That is quite annoying, yes. < 1272999898 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's a way to turn that off, though. < 1272999916 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like "Yes, this is a *workstation* not a server. Fuck off." < 1272999924 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typically I'd guess a magic register key value somewhere. < 1272999935 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... < 1272999940 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there a game at lost.edu or something? How'd they get a .edu? < 1272999966 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybr I'm hallucinating < 1273000036 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: This is all a hallucination. < 1273000038 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Internet does not exist. < 1273000041 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now go to bed. < 1273000102 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, a better nick might be Sgeoid < 1273000111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgendroid. < 1273000127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeoid sounds like a shape. < 1273000152 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or "Sgexus_One"? < 1273000154 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you saying I'm not a shape?!?! < 1273000181 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't the joke usually "What do you mean I'm not in shape? Round *is* a shape!" < 1273000222 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't think of that, but I'm more of a line than a sphere. < 1273000241 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, "in" ahape < 1273000398 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F(@#&#(&@#CK < 1273000410 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I SCREWED MY GSOC APP THIS YEAR ;[ < 1273000610 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1273000620 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what'd you do? < 1273001162 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom_H@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1273001181 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, are there any decent free CASs? < 1273001194 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've tried Maxima, but I was wondering. < 1273001211 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maxima's pretty much it. < 1273001245 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Mathematica is well out of my league... < 1273001259 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well. < 1273001400 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi Phantom_Hoover. We were worried about you. What's the deal with the edit on the wiki? < 1273001417 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was feeling weird last night. I'm OK now. < 1273001441 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glad to hear you're ok < 1273001483 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BtW, did oerjan and alise get that Fibonacci bijection working? < 1273001508 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm... not sure < 1273001649 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1273001658 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.180.197 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273001709 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on my understanding of the algorithm, I can't work out what the binary number "1111" goes to. "111" is {1, 1}, I think. < 1273001823 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the Ubuntu community's help for my graphics drivers crashing my computer is an unequivocal "You're screwed until the update." < 1273001869 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was after spending twenty minutes posting my complaint on the IRC channel every five minutes until I got a response. alise was right, a bag of weasels is far superior. < 1273002019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ubuntu can be pretty awful < 1273002039 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes I idle there around a new release, to increase the average quality of help (I'm not very good at helping, but the average is worse) < 1273002046 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I didn't this time because I haven't upgraded yet < 1273002083 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a small mercy that the particularly computer-illiterate users don't know how to use IRC. < 1273002279 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, did they kick the lucid out of the door? < 1273002336 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1273002374 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am tempted to say "ilmassa on suuren urheilujuhlan tuntua!", but will not, since I couldn't translate that well enough anyway. < 1273002432 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "About NetHack: by night, if they saw him stoop; and even to raise his goats from the man in the use of black magic. as a hunter with..." < 1273002447 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems a bit cut off < 1273002459 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank Twitter for that. < 1273002467 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twitter: My thanks < 1273002487 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just suffix ... if it seems to go past the 140 character limit; didn't tweak the stopping probability at all. < 1273002575 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I also somehow was amused a bit by a recent poem: "maa on viileä kuin myrkkykaatopaikka / solmu hapertuu yöksi / tylsyys osaa juoda myrkkyä meissä". < 1273002605 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1273002606 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you have runogen on Twitter as well? < 1273002633 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, http://twitter.com/runogen (what an inspired account name). < 1273002649 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There exist an english port of runogen, but for some reason it's not at all as funny. < 1273002665 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worse corpus? < 1273002678 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smaller, I think. Only one wordset, no... stranger ones. < 1273002763 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason ~no-one seems to be following either one; runogen's got 2 followers and fungot has 6. < 1273002764 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you shouldn't need the traceback since you should be able to run a gambit benchmark from the repl, but not your vote). you need to < 1273003018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1273003031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: maybe he was using Apple's Time Machine [tm] <-- augh < 1273003111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :opencores has a horrible faq page btw. It is somewhat surprising that it works even without javascript.. < 1273003118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see http://opencores.org/opencores,faq) < 1273003141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(try clicking those links, in fact, you will notice the issue before you click) < 1273003157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is neurotic to navigate < 1273003704 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.229.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273003712 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1273003718 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1273003731 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i did IM filesystem for Plan 9 < 1273003736 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least tried < 1273003750 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: What did you screw up? < 1273003755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, IM? < 1273003762 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proposal ;D < 1273003771 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instant Messaging < 1273003773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1273003781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you meant what I thought you meant. :/ < 1273003795 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh come on, this was even in their ideas < 1273003813 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my view was a little bit modified, though < 1273003830 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1273003834 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: I take that this is mapping IM to the filesystem, rather than creating a filesystem stored over IM < 1273003849 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you're right < 1273003858 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boring < 1273003861 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an IRCfs for Plan 9 < 1273003880 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Plan 9 you write filesystems instead of libs < 1273003885 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did you screw it up? < 1273003906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, which im protocol? jabber? < 1273003918 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because filesystems provide consistent interface for every stupid shell script or C prog or something else < 1273003931 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yup < 1273003944 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but XMPP is tough < 1273003953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, looking around there seems to be better open source tools for verilog than for vhdl, at least there seems to be some open source synthesis tools for verilog < 1273003959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't yet found any for vhdl < 1273003971 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i guess it was not as detailed as it should be < 1273004001 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1273004392 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, now WIMACS has a modem < 1273004469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, ? < 1273004525 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WIMACS is out (mine/friend's) computer built from scratch < 1273004558 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with 8088 processor, homebuilt motherboard and homebuilt modem as an I/O device < 1273004593 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to write small OS for it and then you will be able to dial WIMACS using modem and talk with it on tty < 1273004681 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our* < 1273004811 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it could even serve a BBS < 1273004819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not bad. < 1273004857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could probably port CP/M to it. < 1273004862 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1273004879 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even DOS < 1273004895 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i want to write my own < 1273004896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS is very, very, very heavily BIOS-based. < 1273004898 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just for fun < 1273004903 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CP/M is more portable. < 1273004909 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's right < 1273004920 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but running DOS is possible < 1273004925 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically all that's needed is an 8080, a terminal, and 16k of RAM. < 1273004947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possible, but you'd not run anything that used BIOS routines. < 1273004956 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you wrote an IBM BIOS emulator. < 1273004956 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why CP/M is awesome < 1273004957 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1273004973 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1273005197 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :burp < 1273005754 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1273005791 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@137.125.187.135 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273005803 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : BtW, did oerjan and alise get that Fibonacci bijection working? < 1273005818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't code it up, and i didn't hear alise said e did, either < 1273005846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you're alive! (but absent) < 1273005861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Based on my understanding of the algorithm, I can't work out what the binary number "1111" goes to. "111" is {1, 1}, I think. < 1273005875 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: alise added a link to the wiki < 1273005883 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking about Forth-like language for WIMACS < 1273005884 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may or may not be to a Fibonacci bijection < 1273005918 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: today? because e added the 2^u*(2*v+1)-1 version previously. < 1273005930 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should probably check when he gets that far
< 1273005946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I noticed today, although it may have happened earlier < 1273005963 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: (for the logs) naively, 1111 corresponds to nothing, that's precisely why i included the divMod x 2 modification < 1273005971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you actually looked at my code < 1273006043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically if it starts with an even no. of 1's, remove one before encoding into a list. afterwards, double the list head, then add 1 iff a 1 was removed. < 1273006063 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom_H@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1273006067 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1273006071 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1273006103 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:42 oerjan> BtW, did oerjan and alise get that Fibonacci bijection working? < 1273006106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:43 oerjan> i didn't code it up, and i didn't hear alise said e did, either < 1273006109 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:43 oerjan> also, you're alive! (but absent) < 1273006111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:43 oerjan> Based on my understanding of the algorithm, I can't work out what the binary number "1111" goes to. "111" is {1, 1}, I think. < 1273006122 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :221:45 oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: (for the logs) naively, 1111 corresponds to nothing, that's precisely why i included the divMod x 2 modification < 1273006124 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah, I'm reading the logs. < 1273006126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:45 oerjan> if you actually looked at my code < 1273006127 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I missed that. < 1273006128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:46 oerjan> basically if it starts with an even no. of 1's, remove one before encoding into a list. afterwards, double the list head, then add 1 iff a 1 was removed. < 1273006161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an obvious way to biject BF and the naturals is to start with any naive encoding, then map the lowest-numbered valid BF program to 1, the second-lowest to 2, the third-lowest to 3, etc < 1273006168 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that could be tricky to implement < 1273006184 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that was discussed. < 1273006206 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax *claimed* to have an algorithm that made it practical, but he never gave it. < 1273006237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: we _are_ going for a bit of efficiency here. after all we are still modifying the encoding because the 2^u*(2*v+1)-1 encoding, while perfectly correct afawk, blew up the numbers too much. < 1273006276 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Logically, it must have encoded some *huge* programs as small numbers, though. < 1273006317 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not necessarily < 1273006321 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1273006341 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: How? < 1273006354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just had to encode some huge programs a _little_ smaller than you'd think, so the small programs could fit there instead. < 1273006368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well some of the small programs < 1273006407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but basically i think it encoded long programs without loops fairly small < 1273006421 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys, ive got a challenge for you. :D < 1273006424 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1273006438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its related to formal grammars tho, so if you dont want to accept the challenge, i understand. < 1273006456 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it was the cars in the lists that blew up, and if they were just single commands rather than loops they couldn't blow up _that_ much. < 1273006462 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273006479 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The current bijection gives huge numbers for long programs without loops, though I don't recall if I tried it with the old one. < 1273006491 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1273006499 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the challenge is as follows < 1273006501 0 :AndChat|!~AndChat@137.125.187.135 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273006532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define a class of grammars that extends the context free grammars (or some formulation thereof) in the following way: < 1273006539 0 :AndChat|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1273006543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yeah the triangular encoding and the bit interleaving one both have problems when creating a tuple of one small and one large number, as a long consed program would eventually tend to do < 1273006574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie and i found out those two are actually pretty equivalent < 1273006591 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just about 2 bits difference at most < 1273006594 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So distributing the conses would actually make a big difference? < 1273006600 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the extended version of the grammar allows the following property: for each grammar, there is some non-terminal symbol, call it W, that can behave in the following fashion: < 1273006640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes. although the fibonacci version should be better because the size of the encode list is approximately proportional to the total sum of bits < 1273006644 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either all instances of the symbol are at whatever places they are at in the sentence, one and only one instance is at the front of the sentence, or ALL instances are at the front of the sentence < 1273006726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: however after i pointed out that the challenge is to find an encoding where the bit size of an encoded tuple is approximately the sum of the bitsizes of the elements, fizzie suggested i solve _that_. it would be even better than the fibonacci encoding, i think. < 1273006730 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those are the only three options < 1273006772 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any takers :x < 1273006800 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would, i think, remove the need to distribute tuples, you could use a consed list efficiently enough < 1273006838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: not at present, busy with a different problem as you can see < 1273006847 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1273006922 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i've thought about it a bit since this morning, and at least one way is just a counting problem < 1273006963 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "write out combinations of '-+<>,.[]' and eliminate invalids" way? < 1273006985 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: er no, i've never seriously considered that < 1273007010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm talking about a tuple encoding that approximately sums bitsizes to keep balance automatically < 1273007027 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Write us a generating function for the valid BF programs in some naive encoding. :p < 1273007033 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose fax was wrong about the efficient way for his algorith? < 1273007059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i don't say that, he was mentioning stirling numbers so there probably _is_ a way < 1273007068 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Then solve the coefficients out of it.) < 1273007080 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that even i don't feel like wrapping my brain around that < 1273007088 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION Googles
< 1273007143 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but i _like_ the method we already have of building things out of lists or tuples, it just needs a more balanced tuple or list < 1273007233 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to encode [1..] x [1..] with balanced bits - i think dropping 0 is more elegant because: < 1273007263 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if 0 is dropped, there is exactly 1 number with 1 bit, 2 numbers with 2 bits, 4 numbers with 3 bits etc. < 1273007285 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now then how many tuples are there with sum of bitsizes n? < 1273007310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be 1+(n-1), 2+(n-2), ..., (n-1)+1. < 1273007370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^0 * 2^(n-2) + 2^1 * 2^(n-3) + ... + 2^(n-2) * 2^0 < 1273007382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conveniently all terms are equal :) < 1273007411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there are (n-1)*2^(n-2) tuples with total bitsize sum n < 1273007440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n >= 2 < 1273007556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1*1 + 2*2 + 3*4 + 4*8 + 5*16 + ... < 1273007618 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the obvious way of getting balanced bits is to order the tuples by total bitsize and take their position in the order < 1273007704 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1273007720 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which requires counting all the tuples with smaller bitsize, then adding the number of tuples with same total but less bitsize in the first element, then adding x*2^n + y < 1273007732 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all eminently doable, at least in the forward direction < 1273007763 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er hm x*2^(n-1) + y < 1273007778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming (m,n) are the bitsizes of (x,y) respectively < 1273007802 0 :tombom__!tombom@82.27.18.205 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273007855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the middle term there we already essentially have, it's (m-1)*2^(m+n-2) < 1273007891 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1273007896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it remains to get the partial sums of that series 1*1 + 2*2 + 3*4 + 4*8 + 5*16 + ... < 1273007966 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell take 10 $ scanl1 (+) [(n-1)*2^(n-2) | n <- [2..]] < 1273007968 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,5,17,49,129,321,769,1793,4097,9217] < 1273008008 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell programs must give horrendously complex machine code. < 1273008018 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1273008049 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the evil mangler of ghc is legendary < 1273008082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's going away when they deprecate the compilation via C option < 1273008105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's a perl program directly modifying gcc-outputted assembly, iirc) < 1273008128 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is still trying to stop my inner 4-year-old wanting Mathematica
< 1273008141 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OEIS says that sequence is (n-1)*2^n + 1 < 1273008191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell [(n-1)*2^n + 1 | n <- [0..10]] < 1273008193 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,1,5,17,49,129,321,769,1793,4097,9217] < 1273008223 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell putStrLn "Hello, world!" < 1273008224 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world! < 1273008235 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok we wanted the 1 to start at n=2 < 1273008248 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't it be outputting IO ()? < 1273008260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell [(n-2)*2^(n-1) + 1 | n <- [2..10]] < 1273008262 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,5,17,49,129,321,769,1793,4097] < 1273008298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: that's an optional option for ghc i think < 1273008317 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An optional option... < 1273008327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN < 1273008355 0 :Sgeo|web!~897d6958@gateway/web/freenode/x-ezhgxtecyyyglfcr JOIN :#esoteric < 1273008383 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm actually n=2 should give 0 since then there are no strictly smaller tuples < 1273008389 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the opportunity to post a [Bash] programming contest for my UNIX class < 1273008400 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm considering having them implement a subset of Brainfuck < 1273008403 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any better ideas? < 1273008418 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A _subset_? < 1273008428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell [(n-3)*2^(n-2) + 1 | n <- [2..10]] < 1273008429 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O? < 1273008430 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,1,5,17,49,129,321,769,1793] < 1273008431 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think having them implement [] might be a bit difficult < 1273008437 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1273008438 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any programmer worth their salt can implement the whole thing easily. < 1273008452 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!show sadbf < 1273008452 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadol :M$0 :d:i,45000@>i-01(2]M0:i-i1:S$0:C;3:l#C-01:p:m0@:m%+m1d?=#Cp"1<:m?<-m10-s1-m1?=#Cp"1.!'2#Mm?=#Cp"1,:#Mm'1;0?=#Cp"1[]S-p1?=#Cp"1]?=#Mm00:p[S0:p+p1 < 1273008455 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see? easy < 1273008458 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and complete < 1273008474 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is sadbf? < 1273008486 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck interp in sadol < 1273008562 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Make them implement [] for extra credit? < 1273008563 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encode (x,y) = (m+n-3)*2^(m+n-2)+1 + (m-1)*2^(m+n-2) + x*2^(n-1) + y where m = bitSize x; n = bitSize y < 1273008596 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: are you a teacher or something? < 1273008625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :defining bitSize remains < 1273008635 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait darn < 1273008641 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :log_2 ceilinged? < 1273008647 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: I won the programming contest < 1273008662 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x and y need to have the upper bit removed < 1273008669 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1273008672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm now that's easy < 1273008678 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like teachers < 1273008692 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, be fair to them. < 1273008696 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather ignorant morons... mainly < 1273008713 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people learning programming aren't interested, at least AFAIK. < 1273008736 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: logarithms only defined for floating point, which cannot safely convert from Integers < 1273008740 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you do ASCII code <-> character in Bash? < 1273008754 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one guy from OS architecture classes failed me because my experimental kernel was not enough < 1273008787 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wanted me to make a powerpoint presentation about ACLs and implement an ACL simulator in C# < 1273008788 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: I don't know. < 1273008794 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how sick is that < 1273008834 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Give them a two-way converter and tell them to use that. < 1273008846 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: ... He wanted an ACL implementation, not a *freaking OS*. < 1273008848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encode (x,y) = (m+n-3)*2^(m+n-2)+1 + (m-2)*2^(m+n-2) + (x-1)*2^(n-1) + y where m = bitSize x; n = bitSize y < 1273008848 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bash isn't really a good language for BF. < 1273008852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Failure. < 1273008866 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two way converter? Bleh < 1273008872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the removal of the top bits fit with some other terms < 1273008900 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm some of that still can be combined < 1273008904 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but the guy couldn't even understand my design < 1273008928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encode (x,y) = (2*m+n-5)*2^(m+n-2)+ 1 + (x-1)*2^(n-1) + y where m = bitSize x; n = bitSize y < 1273008952 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus designing and implementing even minimal kernel requires more knowledge than writing a stupid essay about stupid, simple ACLs < 1273008961 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: If your teacher tells you to do such-and-such, doing something very clever that *isn't* such-and-such does not demonstrate knowledge of such-and-such. < 1273008972 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how many people was your teacher teaching? < 1273008982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OS architecture class. The class is about the architecture of an OS. < 1273008993 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1273009005 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he was being graded on a "general project", I'm pretty sure. < 1273009018 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But did he implement whatever an ACL is while writing his kernel? < 1273009024 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit < 1273009026 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hey < 1273009041 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wrote a regular expression compiler for Formal Languages class < 1273009058 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frankly, a kernel for a project in an OS design class is pretty much what I'd expect. Not a teeny tiny ACL implementation in C#. < 1273009062 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of going to lectures and laboratories < 1273009089 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was a hit < 1273009100 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Use printf. < 1273009104 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a converter. < 1273009107 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: You can convert from octal numbers to characters with "echo -e". And from decimal to octal with printf. < 1273009133 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "printf" command's %c prints the first character of the provided argument; it does not convert a number to character. < 1273009148 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Echo -e doesn't on my system. < 1273009168 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"echo -e \0nnn", where nnn is an octal number. < 1273009169 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I just write the converter in Python? < 1273009191 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Well, if you want to be a quitter.... < 1273009191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes but don't. < 1273009207 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why shouldn't I? < 1273009215 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to supply the class with ord2chr and chr2ord < 1273009238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Moar Japanese, or video games? < 1273009245 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: This BF-Nat bijection has demonstrated pretty well that we aren't very practically-minded. < 1273009250 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a very hard decision. < 1273009251 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope that my WIMACS would give me at least several credits < 1273009286 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : So variable spacing in interleaving X_1 and X_2 saves much more (Easily 100Mb with Lost Kingdom) than using hyperpyramidals instead of simple bit interleaving (hardly even 1Mb). < 1273009286 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for "character to octal", od's usually available. That should be enough. < 1273009333 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i thought that compressing brainfuck is a closed topic < 1273009341 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: basically hyperpyramidals and bit interleaving are almost equal, both have encoded size dependent mostly on the maximal element < 1273009357 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: What do you think oerjan's talking about? < 1273009364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck it. Moar Japanese. < 1273009413 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because x1+x2+...+xn is between max(x1,...,xn) and n*max(x1,...,xn) which only give + log_2 n bit variation < 1273009443 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo|web: Does Bash even have decent arrays? < 1273009454 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: read my statement again ;] < 1273009455 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no clue < 1273009464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273009491 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: this isn't compressing really, we aren't trying to remove unnecessary bits or squeeze commonly repetitive parts... < 1273009516 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, he said compressing. < 1273009545 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bash has both indexed and associative arrays, though the "decentness" is debatable. < 1273009578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing that would probably make the whole mess of keeping bijectivity too horribly complicated < 1273009643 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye all < 1273009656 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1273010100 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Aren't they all associative? < 1273010176 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: At least my manpage says they behave differently; you get explicitly indexed arrays with declare -a and associative -A; I'm not sure what you end up with if you just do the [] subscripting. < 1273010188 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1273010199 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Indexed arrays are referenced using integers (including arithmetic expressions) and are zero-based; associative arrays are referenced using arbitrary strings." < 1273010214 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : So variable spacing in interleaving X_1 and X_2 saves much more (Easily 100Mb with Lost Kingdom) than using hyperpyramidals instead of simple bit interleaving (hardly even 1Mb). < 1273010218 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1273010228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(forgot to ^C) < 1273010530 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1273010634 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom_H@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1273010919 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Python give a way to include multiple modules in one file? < 1273011077 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1:[2],10:[4],11:[1],100:[6],101:[8],110:[3],111:[2,1],1000:[10] < 1273011100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that fibonacci encoding ordering is a bit weird :) < 1273011121 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are those binary? < 1273011133 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before the :'s yes < 1273011144 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And after? < 1273011154 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lists of numbers >= 1 < 1273011163 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, duh. < 1273011213 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've missed the idea < 1273011228 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't even know how is this supposed to work < 1273011248 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you take a number >= 1 as binary < 1273011293 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it relies on the property that the base-Fibonacci representation of a number uses only the digits 0 and 1 and never contains the sequence 11. < 1273011302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you split it up at instances of 11 < 1273011303 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1273011308 0 :Rugxulo!~rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273011316 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is logreading again
< 1273011331 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : QuickBasic doesn't have all that many disadvantages for DOS. < 1273011338 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has joined the room
< 1273011340 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise, and 640 kB is enough for everyone? < 1273011354 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I think you'd use EMS or XMS via INTERRUPT() or CALL ABSOLUTE < 1273011356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is talking about himself
< 1273011373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, XD < 1273011389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, how much ram does that allow? < 1273011406 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on what API version, memory manager, etc. < 1273011406 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should make SlowBasic < 1273011410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, and doesn't EMS and XMS mean you can't address it "straight" but need to use some nasty tricks < 1273011415 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XMSv3 should allow 2-4 GB < 1273011416 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION quit (Quit)
< 1273011418 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the first 1 in a 11 is removed. if there is more than 2 1's in a row, start from the back. < 1273011420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like basically having a "window" into high memory < 1273011423 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are < 1273011425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, nice one < 1273011439 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EMS is emulated XMS these days < 1273011440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, except it looks nothing like the real thing here < 1273011449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, both are DEAD these days < 1273011452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1273011454 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I realised that when logreading. < 1273011471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well nor does it even look similar in my irc client I meant < 1273011474 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://johnson.tmfc.net/dos/drivers.html < 1273011496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: FreeDOS is still maintained. < 1273011521 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but how is it related to bf? < 1273011522 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(barely, but yes) < 1273011526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this leaves a problem if 11 remains at the start, which is hacked around by modifying the first number x into 2x or 2x+1, dependingly < 1273011528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes and so is linux 2.2 < 1273011532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS is an OS that is very, very hard to kill. < 1273011539 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that hard < 1273011546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, also. doesn't both of these imply that you use a window into high memory or something < 1273011550 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AMD64 (no V86), Vista and 7 (no gfx, bugs) < 1273011556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, that you can't see both at once < 1273011557 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: This will take a while. < 1273011566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, err all* < 1273011567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: That AMD64 can still run DOS. < 1273011567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not both < 1273011568 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, kinda, yes < 1273011571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just not in long mode. < 1273011578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there are emulators < 1273011584 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: it's just a way to encode lists of naturals as a single natural, which is then used as a subroutine to collapse a bf program into a single natural number < 1273011584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, so a pita to program for then? < 1273011586 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOSEMU has to fully emulate 16-bit stuff in AMD64 < 1273011594 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just a PITA for lazy programmers ;-) < 1273011597 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, there are quite good x86 emulators. < 1273011601 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, DPMI is the preferred method < 1273011602 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: AMD64 != long mode. < 1273011610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what pikhq said < 1273011610 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1273011617 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, but you know what I meant < 1273011618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but no one needs vm86() ... < 1273011629 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one needs AMD64 either < 1273011632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dosemu and dosbox are both fast enough < 1273011634 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it exists ... < 1273011638 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies < 1273011642 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOSBox is slow slow slow!!! < 1273011647 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only emulates a 486 !!! < 1273011663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, well then, no one would make new dos apps needing a modern computer < 1273011666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use it for old games < 1273011669 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, DPMI is how you directly access memory in 32-bit < 1273011670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where it is fast enough < 1273011683 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Dude, it's effectively emulating *several hundred MHz* 486. < 1273011691 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even under DOSEMU x86-64, DJGPP stuff runs "native speed" (their claim, not mine) < 1273011692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I need 64-bit, I often use enough ram at once for that < 1273011700 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, 100 Mhz 486 DX2 < 1273011702 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is to say, *dozens of times faster than any 486 ever dreamed of running*. < 1273011702 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: the trick is to do this in such a way that all legal bf programs get a unique number, and no numbers are skipped < 1273011710 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you need 1+ Ghz processor even for that speed !!! < 1273011711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, of course I don't need x86 as such < 1273011721 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Uh, WTF? < 1273011726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I would be perfectly happy with PowerPC < 1273011731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(legal wrt bracketing. comments are ignored.) < 1273011731 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Dear God man, *Bochs* is faster than that. < 1273011743 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sounds awesome < 1273011743 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, trust me, DOSBox will not run faster than a 486 < 1273011748 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a real 586, and it's much faster < 1273011761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, a 586 wouldn't run dos any more < 1273011771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes it would. < 1273011771 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? sure it would < 1273011777 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do it all the time ;-) < 1273011777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A 586 is called a "Pentium". < 1273011780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, didn't windows exist by then < 1273011782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed < 1273011788 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows existed for 8088, even < 1273011789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what a i586 is < 1273011798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, well okay, but I mean "common" < 1273011802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Until Windows XP, consumer Windows was a DOS program. < 1273011807 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XP needs at least a Pentium 1 (no MMX) < 1273011815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I know, but you didn't see much of that in windows 98 < 1273011819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even in 95 < 1273011823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 3.x sure you did < 1273011823 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that's generalizing a bit much, but semi-true < 1273011825 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure you did. < 1273011831 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every time you ran a 3.x program. < 1273011840 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or an old DOS program. < 1273011851 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which was pretty darned common until, oh, 2000 or so. < 1273011853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which was basically never, plus you couldn't tell it really if it was 3.x apart from a sucky gui < 1273011863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I used 95 and 98 < 1273011869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well on 95 it still happened < 1273011870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Clearly you didn't. < 1273011873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on 98, basically never < 1273011902 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every time it broke enough, you needed to get out the edit.com < 1273011923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, don't think win98 broke like that for me ever < 1273011929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, blue screens yes < 1273011944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so okay you saw scandisk at boot sometimes, I admit that < 1273011976 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster Rugxulo, I need 64-bit, I often use enough ram at once for that < 1273011995 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody ever used to need > 4 GB of RAM, so why they do now? < 1273012006 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we put a man on the moon with much much much less than that ;-) < 1273012041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAARGH why did firefox decide to open that pdf in *krita* < 1273012044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes no sense < 1273012045 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Anyways. DOSbox *defaults* to 100 MHz. The clock speed it runs at is configurable. < 1273012068 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno why, but it does. < 1273012121 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not cycle exact, and cpus differ, different apps need different speeds, etc. < 1273012128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1273012137 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, plus there are different cores for different things (supposed to guess at runtime, doesn't always work) < 1273012142 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though most DOS apps *really* shouldn't be relying on a specific clock speed. < 1273012154 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most don't, but some old ones did < 1273012160 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, anything that ran on anything newer than the original XT shouldn't. < 1273012207 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOSBox virtualizes a lot of stuff (VGA, soundcards, etc.), otherwise people would just prefer VirtualBox (faster but much less DOS-friendly) < 1273012220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what API did DOS provide and how was it called? < 1273012226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interrupts? < 1273012228 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :provide for what, timing? < 1273012237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, in general, how did you do a syscall under DOS < 1273012240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what I'm asking < 1273012265 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Interrupts. < 1273012266 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a la "int 80h" ?? DOS proper mostly used "int 21h" (but also others, 2Fh, and BIOS, 10h) < 1273012278 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/used/was called via/ < 1273012303 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would happen if I wrote a BIOS program in Linux and ran it? < 1273012307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, yes like syscall/sysret (or int 80h, but linux no longer uses that if there are better alternatives, and that change was made back during 2.5.x) < 1273012319 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I think Linux V86 mode supports such < 1273012321 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe) < 1273012342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm what did windows do for it? before syscall/sysret I mean < 1273012345 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but there are people who code for int 80h (mostly assembly dudes) < 1273012348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows nt 4 and so on < 1273012368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, why do they code for a legacy platform though? < 1273012370 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did Windows do internally or end users? < 1273012386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I mean, what did windows do to call it's kernel < 1273012395 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "legacy" is 90% of the world! < 1273012396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some interrupt? call gates (*shudder*)? < 1273012404 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You just call the NTDLL functions, you don't do manual syscalls there. (I'm sure it's *possible*. but...) < 1273012411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and what do they do? < 1273012414 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Depends on which Windows. < 1273012420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, nowdays presumably syscall/sysret < 1273012423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I specified that above < 1273012427 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must sleep. < 1273012431 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1273012431 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1273012437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NTDLL. < 1273012438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, "nt before syscall/sysret days" < 1273012439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said < 1273012446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not exact phrase < 1273012450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the same meaning < 1273012458 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Why should you care what they do? My guess would be the interrupt mechanism, that's I guess the common way. < 1273012471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes but which interrupt < 1273012520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and: AnMaster: "legacy" is 90% of the world! <-- not really, most new linux installs on 64-bit capable hardware (which is almost all new x86 hardware, possibly excluding atom, not sure about that...) tend to be x86_64 < 1273012520 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really documented internals (at least not by MS), but I think "int 2Eh" was their own revectored / proprietary one < 1273012532 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "System calls in Windows NT are initiated by executing an "int 2e" instruction." < 1273012533 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Atom is 64-bit now, yes < 1273012534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least those I have seen < 1273012537 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is VIA < 1273012543 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But really, no-one invokes those manually, so why *should* you care? < 1273012547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, yes, all new hardware is < 1273012551 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't because MS didn't document it < 1273012558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, and by god, x86_64 is *way* better < 1273012563 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, so what? just because it's new doesn't make it perfect < 1273012564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still bad yes < 1273012572 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Windows NT supports 3 different system call schemes by default. < 1273012578 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better for coders who already know how to use older stuff? < 1273012579 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :barely < 1273012580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, yes it is less register starved, no it doesn't have enough registers < 1273012581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, heh < 1273012593 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't matter how many registers, push/pop is a simple workaround < 1273012595 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Win32 subsystem's, the OS/2 subsystem's, and the POSIX subsystem's. < 1273012597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, slower < 1273012599 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, more registers don't mean faster speed < 1273012607 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(implementations for the POSIX subsystem are not included by default) < 1273012611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, and compiler does a better job at a less register starved architecture < 1273012617 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS/2 and POSIX subsystems are dead and removed in modern Windows < 1273012625 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compilers are dumb dumb dumb < 1273012633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*plonk* < 1273012634 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: The OS/2 subsystem is unmaintained but very much still around. < 1273012642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? interesting < 1273012649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the POSIX subsystem is not merely around but actively developed. < 1273012650 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, not that I know of, I think OS/2 1.x apps last worked only in Win2k < 1273012658 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interix? SFU? < 1273012658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still work. < 1273012665 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interix is still developed. < 1273012671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that is the POSIX subsystem. < 1273012672 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the same, and doesn't come by default, only available for Enterprise, etc. < 1273012689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I presume I can get it by MSDNAA < 1273012695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too lazy to check < 1273012695 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1273012698 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a free download. < 1273012700 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I just mean most compilers aren't exactly perfect by a long shot < 1273012706 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: null < 1273012711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For XP, Vista, Server 2003, Server 2008, or 7. < 1273012713 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like they magically get 1000x better just by having a few extra registers < 1273012732 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Server" != "Home Premium" < 1273012746 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Server 2003" is a *Windows version*. < 1273012756 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but not for home users (e.g. DPMI broken) < 1273012761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, sure, gcc isn't very good. But 1) portable (compared to asm) 2) much less programmer time, hardware is cheaper than programmer time often nowdays 3) good enough most of the time < 1273012768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a lot easier to debug for and so on < 1273012770 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still available for the *consumer versions of OSes* as well. < 1273012776 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm can be portable, see FASM itself (runs on like 10 OSes) < 1273012781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, and not 1000x, that is unrealistic < 1273012787 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less programmer time depends on the programmer ;-) < 1273012795 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also. Yeah, x86 gains a *lot* from the extra registers. < 1273012799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I'm talking about 150% increase for some tasks, 10-20% for other < 1273012800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86_64 *doubles* the registers. < 1273012800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it varies < 1273012803 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Doubles*. < 1273012805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1273012808 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not everything speeds up with x86-64 < 1273012822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc I saw 300% increase for MPEG decoding on x86-64 < 1273012826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some such < 1273012832 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably using SSE2 < 1273012836 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is always available < 1273012843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, it was using SSE2 on 32-bit version too < 1273012844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that test < 1273012847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And anything doing 64-bit arithmetic (like MPEG encoding and decoding) increases by *absurd* amounts. < 1273012857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: It also doubles the number of SSE2 registers... < 1273012872 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously you guys haven't tested my lame-o hack of BEFI.COM, very very small changes can significantly alter the speed < 1273012877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I don't understand why we don't have a mode with 32-bit pointers, 64-bit GP registers, and so on < 1273012881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems saner < 1273012890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Too much work. < 1273012891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64-bit pointers only for apps that need it < 1273012902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it would avoid the larger pointer size problem < 1273012902 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: people are lazy, that's why < 1273012910 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That means another full complement of dynamic libraries. < 1273012917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and we would always have 64-bit registers < 1273012930 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like V86++ to me ;-) < 1273012932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no it means two, since we drop the legacy 32-bit GP register variant on this arch < 1273012948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have two anyway nowdays < 1273012960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... If you're dropping x86_32, then you might as well just *nuke x86 as a whole*. < 1273012961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this would be a new arch < 1273012961 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Are you sure you can get it officially supported for the consumer versions of current Windowsen? SFU 3.5, which is downloadable from Microsoft, officially supports up to Server 2003 / XP; for Vista and 7, you'd need the "Subsystem for UNIX-based applications" (SUA), which as far as I know isn't available as a standalone thing, only in the Enterprise and Ultimate editions. < 1273012965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes < 1273012970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, this wouldn't be x86 at all < 1273012980 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Could be that I just haven't found the SUA download, though.) < 1273012986 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I've used it. < 1273012992 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MS is annoying with nickel-and-diming everything < 1273012995 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's even free to redistribute. < 1273013002 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gentoo/Win32 has it on the CD. < 1273013003 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XP Mode won't work on 7 except non-Home versions, etc. < 1273013018 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah, just use Cygwin ;-) < 1273013025 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Sorry. Gentoo/Windows. < 1273013025 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if Cygwin64 exists
< 1273013045 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Interix is quite a bit faster than Cygwin. < 1273013056 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't need to use hacks like userspace fork. < 1273013086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it would be some (probably RISC) platform. It would have 32-bit and 64-bit pointer mode for userland. Always 64-bit for kernel. It would have lots of GPR, (64? 128?) which would always be 64-bits wide, possibly we could have a few 128-bit GP registers as well, probably fewer for cost reasons). It would have some 256 bits wide SIMD registers. Or maybe 512? < 1273013097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and some floating point, could be part of SIMD, not sure < 1273013125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus an assorted set of special registers of course, like every other arch < 1273013144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sounds like utopia yet? < 1273013157 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lbw.sourceforge.net/ (uses Interix, supposedly very buggy though) < 1273013162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gentoo/Win32 has it on the CD. <-- and isn't that dead? If you mean the cygwin one? < 1273013177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, there is internix debian < 1273013178 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :256 bit wide SIMD = AVX, no? < 1273013181 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: By "it", do you mean the older SFU 3.5 working also on Vista and 7 unsupportedly, or the SUA? Because all I can really find from Microsoft's downloads is the SUA utilities and SDK, which requires Vista/7 Enterprise/Ultimate, because the actual subsystem part is only included in those. (I guess it might be redistributable and available because of that, but not directly from MS.) < 1273013186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, this is not x86 < 1273013187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1273013455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Huh. Sure enough. < 1273013470 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 03:00:06 dumb question, but why not use FreeBASIC instead? < 1273013470 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : No peeking 'n poking madness; no nostalgia; no good-ole-days-feeling. < 1273013472 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, how is it with Hurd these days? Ready to replace the temporary Linux solution yet? < 1273013476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fucking Microsoft. < 1273013486 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeBASIC has a QB mode, and you can indeed peek/poke with DJGPP functions < 1273013488 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hurd is basically abandoned. < 1273013504 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I think somebody is (barely) working on it, just not sure how much < 1273013512 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I read some hint about it recently, but I can't remember < 1273013524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, link to gentoo/windows? < 1273013537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the only thing I can find is something published on 1 april... < 1273013553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the old dead gentoo/cygwin one < 1273013592 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/prefix/index.xml < 1273013621 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, BTW, does anybody in here besides me actively have a Win32 install? < 1273013632 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking it should maybe be possible to write a Befunge93 interpreter in CMD < 1273013636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: I have *an* implementation of Win32. < 1273013641 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which may or may not work with ReactOS) < 1273013651 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(their shell shares some features) < 1273013654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and the cd with this thing for it on it? < 1273013676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://distfiles.gentoo.org/experimental/prefix/x86-interix/ < 1273013681 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote "get()" in CMD, seems to work, haven't gotten past that though < 1273013687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I have 64-bit windows xp in a virtualbox < 1273013692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is all I have when it comes to windows < 1273013692 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273013702 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: I have a silly Server 2003 install, though I'm not sure what you mean by "actively". < 1273013779 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was basically looking for comments on whether anybody agreed that CMD should be enough to emulate Befunge93 < 1273013790 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I said, I wrote get(), it seems to work, but I haven't gotten past that < 1273013792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it < 1273013794 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sure, why not. < 1273013810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but who knows, it may be possible < 1273013821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge98, probably not < 1273013848 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supports "set /A expression", for example < 1273013871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, what about the stack < 1273013880 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :env. vars < 1273013888 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set STACK=%STACK% 9 < 1273013894 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or similar < 1273013905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, how do you extract the top element from that then? < 1273013944 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :May also specify substrings for an expansion. < 1273013944 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : %PATH:~10,5% < 1273013944 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would expand the PATH environment variable, and then use only the 5 < 1273013944 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :characters that begin at the 11th (offset 10) character of the expanded < 1273013944 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :result. < 1273013956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1273013971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, that is cmd.exe but not command.com right? < 1273013983 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1273013987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, and who knows where this is documented... < 1273014001 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just typed "set /?" and "for /?" < 1273014004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1273014009 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seemed to be enough for now ;-) < 1273014017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, that mentions the substring thingy? < 1273014023 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1273014025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and that set /A < 1273014027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it do < 1273014047 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The /A switch specifies that the string to the right of the equal sign < 1273014047 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a numerical expression that is evaluated. The expression evaluator < 1273014047 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is pretty simple and supports the following operations, in decreasing < 1273014047 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :order of precedence: < 1273014047 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : () - grouping < 1273014047 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ! ~ - - unary operators < 1273014048 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * / % - arithmetic operators < 1273014048 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : + - - arithmetic operators < 1273014049 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : << >> - logical shift < 1273014049 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : & - bitwise and < 1273014050 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ - bitwise exclusive or < 1273014050 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | - bitwise or < 1273014051 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = *= /= %= += -= - assignment < 1273014051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1273014052 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : &= ^= |= <<= >>= < 1273014053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop the spam < 1273014063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a short summary is enough < 1273014077 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted you to know what it supported (&, ^, |) < 1273014091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useless for befunge93 though < 1273014105 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1273014113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't have bitwise operators < 1273014130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also for befunge98 (unless you use some fingerprint that provide bitwise operators) < 1273014140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, also it doesn't do xnor :( < 1273014142 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well obviously Befunge doesn't ... but I'm just saying "set /a" should be enough for B93 < 1273014151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course, nothing does, unless it is a HDL) < 1273014158 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: MSDN has cmd.exe documentation, I've used it a couple of times. < 1273014172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think I never looked further than windows help center < 1273014176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before loosing interest < 1273014277 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, you sure love 64-bit a lot ;-) < 1273014278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: As for command.com limitations, failing all else you could keep the stack in a file, and use the find command (grep replacement) to extract the top and all-but-the-top into different files. < 1273014310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, hm? that is because compared to 32-bit x86 it is a lot saner < 1273014320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it is worse than most RISC platforms < 1273014324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 in general is crap < 1273014331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is what I'm stuck with < 1273014337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, also that comment seemed out of context there < 1273014346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since we hadn't discussed that for several screens < 1273014351 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was referring to your XP64 VirtualBox install < 1273014360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, that was several screens above yes < 1273014376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, 2 screens < 1273014377 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 minutes ago, my how time flies < 1273014403 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, 64-bit is not hugely better than 32-bit, nor is 32-bit so high and mighty and awesome that it fully obsoletes 16-bit < 1273014404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, well considering we discussed other things in between yes < 1273014411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1273014419 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"x86 in general is crap, but that is what I'm stuck with" < 1273014424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1273014436 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all computers, OSes, languages, compilers are crap ... but it's all we've got, so we have to use them to the fullest! < 1273014450 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC is far from perfect, but it's less evil than the others < 1273014468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, you do realise that dropping the whole segmented memory thing x86_64 made a huge step in the right direction. Sure there are still segments, but only used for a way to use thread local data, and that is iirc just used as an offset then into the flat memory < 1273014482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I have high hopes with clang < 1273014488 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory, fine ... in practice, bad < 1273014495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, what is bad in practise? < 1273014503 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if everything wasn't closed source and we could all code / fix bugs, it wouldn't matter < 1273014516 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but removing compatibility in such a proprietary world seems like a bad idea < 1273014523 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who needs yet another incompatible mess to port to?? < 1273014531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, well, non of the really important software for me is closed source apart from bios < 1273014541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably some firmware in some devices too < 1273014546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is unlikely to be x86 < 1273014551 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really complaining about AMD64, I don't hate it (far from it), but it's not fair to obsolete everything else just because it exists < 1273014556 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two things can co-exist peacefully < 1273014558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I doubt my wlan card runs x86 firmware) < 1273014564 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273014577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I never said that, I think we should obsolete x86 completely < 1273014582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is sadly unrealistic < 1273014588 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm no huge proprietary software fan myself, but I'm just saying ... some things can't easily be replaced, hence it's bad to remove compatibility < 1273014602 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 isn't bad enough to obsolete completely < 1273014642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I can't see any non-easily replaceable things around me except my ssh key and my gpg key :P < 1273014650 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may not prefer pure assembly for your own personal stuff, but it ain't that bad < 1273014660 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, gcc? ;-) < 1273014666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, clang + llvm < 1273014671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works fine for C code nowdays < 1273014677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ still WIP < 1273014678 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't work with computed gotos (have you tested CFunge?) < 1273014682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it can now compile itself < 1273014686 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WIP but works ... bootstraps itself < 1273014688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is quite impressive < 1273014692 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, indeed < 1273014693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, indeed < 1273014708 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a lot of promise, just not perfect yet (lacking some GCC extensions some people have used too much) < 1273014734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, also for C there are lots of other compilers, tcc and pcc for example < 1273014739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit more sparse when it comes to C99 < 1273014749 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenWatcom, too < 1273014754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1273014757 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even dev86/bcc < 1273014757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never used it myself < 1273014768 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has no 64-bit support, so I guess you wouldn't ;-) < 1273014770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, mostly because I prefer protected memory or something < 1273014789 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(re: dev86, I assume, since OW supports pmode, even Linux) < 1273014801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, you know, I coded for stuff more limited than an 8088 < 1273014811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, PIC12 series < 1273014831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PIC12F629 unless I misremember < 1273014840 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C? < 1273014868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, in asm, you can't do C when you have an accumulator machine with 1024 words program memory < 1273014881 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1273014891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, but that is an embedded system < 1273014900 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, there exist 64-bit assembly programs too, as I guess you know < 1273014903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, 8 legs, and two of those are used for vcc/gnd < 1273014912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one was used for serial cable input < 1273014927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I know, I written some inline asm myself, non-temporal stores < 1273014941 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't find GCC output a bit bloated? :-/ < 1273014955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I make it portable < 1273014960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with pure C fallbacks and so on < 1273014964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus I avoid C when I can < 1273014972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I go for LISP or erlang most of the time < 1273014979 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :portability is good, no doubt < 1273014989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, anyway, I had to use the remaining 5 legs to drive 12 leds < 1273014998 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't Erlang compile to C? (or is that Eiffel?? I forget...) < 1273015020 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have somewhere few incomplete bits of "nesbef", a befunge93 interp for the good old NES. Left it incomplete, got somewhat bored of the 6502-clone asm. < 1273015038 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen those portable NES clone machines? < 1273015043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, yes, I know cfunge compiles on openbsd (manual build, build system itself doesn't seem to work well here), freebsd, solaris (tested once, quite some time ago) and of course linux < 1273015054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tested sparc, x86 and x86_64 < 1273015063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sparc I can't test often < 1273015069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was a once off access basically < 1273015079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was iirc openbsd/sparc < 1273015085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and solaris/sparc < 1273015096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, ? < 1273015102 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? what? < 1273015107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the NES stuff < 1273015138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : doesn't Erlang compile to C? (or is that Eiffel?? I forget...) <-- erlang compiles to bytecode, which is then run in the beam vm. you don't see beam directly most of the time, it is invoked as erl < 1273015148 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw a NES clone portable for $30 on eBay (admittedly used, they seem to sell for $40-50 US new) < 1273015151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erl give you a REPL running in BEAM < 1273015175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, you don't mean a NES emulator do you? < 1273015176 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sparc has got those register windows, they're funky. < 1273015177 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just thought that was interesting (since no way in hell do I want to buy an old old machine that will break) < 1273015179 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1273015182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes quite < 1273015187 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, a real NES (well, clone) < 1273015191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but the compiler handled that for me :P < 1273015210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, not sure why I would want one < 1273015215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zelda 2 wasn't all that good < 1273015220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(playable yes) < 1273015221 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me either, just saying, it's cool that one exists < 1273015232 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(finally dumb patents expired, and Nintendo hasn't made a NES since 1995) < 1273015249 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zelda 2 was pretty good, I thought, but tastes vary < 1273015250 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's been Famiclones for ages. < 1273015262 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, and Nintendo sued them ad nauseum for years < 1273015274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In those countries they could, yes. < 1273015286 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite rampant in Asia and Eastern Europe. < 1273015294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And South America. < 1273015328 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always liked Ninja Gaiden (1,2,3) for NES < 1273015329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1273015337 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't played in years though (machine broke, doh) < 1273015346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, there are emulators < 1273015362 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the NES is very well-emulated. < 1273015365 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, which Nintendo spread a lot of FUD about for years also (dummies) < 1273015383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, huh? < 1273015386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about emulators? < 1273015387 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1273015391 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember LoopyNes being quite fast (written in assembly) for DOS back in the day ;-) < 1273015394 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Emulators are illegal" they say. < 1273015395 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't enable networking in qemu < 1273015402 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that gues OS has internet access < 1273015402 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As well as "making backups". < 1273015403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how stupid. < 1273015409 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what they say is basically, "Fair use copyright doesn't exist" < 1273015413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(both actions are perfectly legal. Explicitly so, even.) < 1273015451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, that depends on the country < 1273015460 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: US law. < 1273015470 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They claimed this in the US. < 1273015471 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sent them an e-mail, "So a NES emulator for Final Fantasy is illegal even though I legit purchased the game? Guess I'll have to buy a PS1 + FF combo pack!!!" < 1273015475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1273015492 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, these are the idiots that also felt that a Game Genie was illegal. < 1273015496 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then about a year later (heh, I'm not egotistical to think it was my doing), FF came out for GBA ;-) < 1273015515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*After losing the lawsuit against them because it was legal*. < 1273015549 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are the same people who "ported" their borked original (missing level 4) NES Donkey Kong to GBA < 1273015587 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just seems dumb to whine about clones for a machine they haven't made in ages (1995) < 1273015603 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if buying used old-ass machines was any better < 1273015610 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Older. < 1273015626 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean they stopped in 1995 < 1273015632 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Yeah. 1995. < 1273015636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... 2003 in Japan? < 1273015648 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: this sounds like Stephen Harper < 1273015651 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*You could still buy a new Famicom in 2003*? < 1273015669 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike the 7800, their SNES wasn't backwards compatible < 1273015680 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although 3rd-party adapter existed but expensive) < 1273015742 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, Nintendo no longer claims emulators to be illegal, though they (correctly) argue that most every use of them to play a real game involves an illegal copy < 1273015763 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"correctly" is a bit of a stretch since there is no legal way to copy the games < 1273015774 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Yes there is. < 1273015775 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they pretty much prevented fair use < 1273015789 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are perfectly entitled to create a copy of a real cartridge. < 1273015790 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I think those ROM dumpers are illegal themselves (or used to be) < 1273015814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are *explicitly* allowed by US copyright law. < 1273015824 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not just "kinda-sort fair use", *explicitly allowed*. < 1273015830 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :their argument was the "save data" (e.g. FF or Zelda) was someone else's, hence "proving" that you weren't getting an exact copy of the original, which I thought was a lame thing to say < 1273015832 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do not claim that ROM dumps are illegal either < 1273015839 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know it is allowed, but Nintendo doesn't think so! < 1273015844 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: They used to. < 1273015848 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1273015856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, I'm surprised they've *stopped*. < 1273015875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know they still claimed it in the last Nintendo stuff I got (a GBA) < 1273015885 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1273015889 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess I shouldn't really think they'd 100% abide by any (random) law, but their position(s) just makes no sense < 1273015892 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking at the website, I don't know about the inserts < 1273015894 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to see
< 1273015952 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language is pretty ambiguous, but does imply that backups are illegal < 1273015961 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this from a Wii game manual) < 1273015990 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but arguably it could just be a claim that backup copies are 'unauthorized' and would thus void the warranty < 1273016005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and then about a year later (heh, I'm not egotistical to think it was my doing), FF came out for GBA ;-) <-- FF? < 1273016017 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :final fantasy < 1273016027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1273016036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what was that "heh, I'm not egotistical to think it was my doing" about? < 1273016045 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style ff7 < 1273016045 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII) < 1273016051 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I thought my argument was fair < 1273016054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1273016080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I doubt that caused it < 1273016081 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Why shouldn't I be allowed to run an emulator with my legally-purchased Final Fantasy? So buying a PS1 + FF combo is a better idea? (gives Nintendo no extra money either)" < 1273016086 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Say something relevant. Is the script I showed you illegal, for example? < 1273016086 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: our company may be a shinra uniform...... < 1273016088 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it didn't, I admit ;-) < 1273016094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, true < 1273016111 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully the Canadian government will finally get smart and fully legalize format-shifting < 1273016116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, never played that ff < 1273016126 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus making emulations of ripped software legal < 1273016129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I played the one with spoony bard in it < 1273016135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whichever that one was < 1273016189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: FFVI < 1273016204 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(FFIII-US) < 1273016226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1273016239 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Edward (the sppoony bard) is from IV, not VI. < 1273016241 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was talking about the old, original FF1
< 1273016246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, probably US one < 1273016247 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh, right. XD < 1273016249 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite as impressive, that one ;-) < 1273016261 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VI's the better one. :p < 1273016266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Ah, the one that's short "plot". :P < 1273016273 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I have yet to play either. < 1273016282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though FFVI is next on my "to play" queue. < 1273016282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, looking at wikipedia it seems closer to the VI one from the screenshots < 1273016305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WikibattleFF6.PNG <-- at least that one looks very familiar < 1273016317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe it wasn't spoony bard after all < 1273016337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but wasn't there some useless bard in VI too? < 1273016347 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must be said, the bard was, in fact, spoony. < 1273016364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We checked." < 1273016369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1273016379 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that was in the FF4 DS remake. < 1273016397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, which one was the useless char in FFVI then? < 1273016504 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... there's the gambler. And that king. < 1273016516 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not quite as spoony as the bard. < 1273016600 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the moogle, e's pretty useless. < 1273016647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1273016648 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kupo! < 1273016664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weren't there such in secret of mana too? < 1273016672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm different game world right? < 1273016676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or? < 1273016723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wikipedia says it is a spin-off < 1273016727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains that < 1273016731 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moogles have spread a bit, I think. < 1273016734 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different series. < 1273016742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But kupo. < 1273016743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, spin-off says wikipedia though < 1273016750 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kupo, kupo. < 1273016761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah different game world, but even in the same series game worlds are inconsistent often < 1273016767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just look at zelda!!) < 1273016794 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The FF worlds don't have that much to do with themselves between installments. < 1273016801 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: kupo < 1273016805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did any two zelda game share a similar looking world map. I mean the relative placement of the landmarks and such < 1273016827 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The newer games have tended to vaguely fit the same shape < 1273016840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least secret of mana had a nicer combat system than FFVI did < 1273016844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-2 was a sequel for X though. Not that I've played any past 9. They're up to, what, 13 or 14 now? < 1273016846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about the other FF series < 1273016856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but FFVI had a very annoying combat system < 1273016859 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... actually < 1273016867 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there seem to be two competing layouts for Hyrule < 1273016874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, only two? < 1273016887 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm only counting ones that I can think of being in multiple games < 1273016902 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the OoT layout and the LttP layout < 1273016918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, other games had yet other ones iirc? < 1273016925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zelda 1 for example < 1273016927 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1273016927 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many Zeldas are there? too many to remember, I think < 1273016947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be fair, at least two of the zelda games takes place outside Hyrule < 1273016951 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three < 1273016959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :majora's mask and links awakening < 1273016962 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... four < 1273016962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the ones I know < 1273016966 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... six < 1273016971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, which are the remaining ones? < 1273016981 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both Oracle games and both DS games < 1273016990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, what are the DS ones called < 1273016999 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks < 1273017006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1273017010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither rings a bell < 1273017016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're pretty good < 1273017018 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wind Waker has Hyrule underwater too < 1273017039 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15? < 1273017042 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno about Minish Cap's map; never played it < 1273017042 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Wikipedia) < 1273017048 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda < 1273017059 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, Zeldapedia counts 15 released main-series games < 1273017065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1273017076 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that includes the (allegedly horrible) CD-i versions? < 1273017078 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1273017082 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are separate < 1273017082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, which combat system do you prefer: that of FFVI or that of Secret of Mana? < 1273017098 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: No such games. < 1273017195 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-i_games_from_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series < 1273017197 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at a picture of Minish Cap's world map, it seems to have a different one < 1273017238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: It's called "discontinuity", not "ignorance of the existence". < 1273017272 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style ct < 1273017272 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) < 1273017274 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: The sword, alone...? < 1273017274 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you are strong of will...! that's the pendant the gurus and miss you. you may use that " rainbow shell? can eat much! < 1273017312 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Was hoping for "can't stop" there.) < 1273017330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, now do what fizzie told you to < 1273017330 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! it's time you jumped off this mortal coil...?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered! < 1273017351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, almost, you had "sword" there but not the rest < 1273017351 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but cyrus! are you leaving! it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... yes! well then rest and relax! huh?! well, remember that you can log in anywhere on the world map! need a brief weapons and items seminar? < 1273017359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, no good < 1273017360 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! < 1273017366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, again not quite < 1273017366 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it's been awhile prometheus!!! i give you 1 weapon or 1 item! what you do? wake you, but need dactyl?! < 1273017370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1273017380 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, no go. < 1273017405 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lots of exclamation marks though. < 1273017447 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's easily excited. < 1273017452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1273017484 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-45-169.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric