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00:20:07 <zzo38> It turns out who you thought was the main bad guy(s) is really a
00:20:11 <zzo38> double double agent.
00:39:10 <zzo38> What I want in D&D is "Break Into Debugger" spell.
00:47:46 <oerjan> zzo38: i would think wanting your D&D playing to resemble the programming you do everyday defeats the spirit of roleplaying in a horrendous way.
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01:15:38 <zzo38> oerjan: OK, then........
01:17:42 <zzo38> Now, (in the game) I need a tool for drawing large circles on the ground, and also a ring of anti-magic, and...
01:19:07 <zzo38> ...enough bonus to Diplomacy to use it to beholders.
01:33:36 <zzo38> This is going to require good timing. (And also zwischenzug. And "iron restraint".)
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01:42:53 * uorygl pulls out his Finnish and reviews.
01:45:31 * uorygl goes to Finnish Wikipedia to read about the koirat again.
01:50:20 <uorygl> Aww, what a cute word.
01:55:44 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/QR8ettwJ
01:58:58 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/GFwGcCnh
01:59:29 <uorygl> Aww, it was a valid command up there.
02:01:11 <zzo38> But in this situation it should be obvious why it is no longer valid?
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02:04:10 <uorygl> Well, now I have no idea what command to use next.
02:04:19 <uorygl> Besides, last time, L essentially gave a list of valid commands.
02:04:25 <uorygl> I would expect it to do the same here.
02:07:23 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/VyKq7ZEM
02:08:46 <uorygl> Well, how about P and I?
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02:10:10 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/KRDYh8pF
02:10:47 <uorygl> Looks like S2 is pretty much the only option.
02:11:14 <uorygl> `translate Koira on ihmisen kesyttämistä eläimistä vanhin.
02:11:17 <HackEgo> A dog is man's oldest domesticated animals.
02:11:55 <zzo38> Oops there is ' in there.
02:12:07 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/wVNrMenD
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02:14:44 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/Yq1K66yn
02:16:52 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/zFfBLLYY
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02:17:29 <uorygl> Next time, I'm using RAZOR LEAF and TACKLE.
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02:18:03 <uorygl> Now, what the heck was that?
02:18:47 <uorygl> Where were you getting this?
02:18:52 <zzo38> I just made it up.
02:19:01 <zzo38> It probably contains errors anyways.
02:19:09 <zzo38> It doesn't properly exist
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02:22:18 <fax> how can genetic code mutate? if you change one letter of a program it will break.. what about a genetic programming langauge that does not break if you change a tiny bit of it
02:23:04 <uorygl> Parts of ordinary computer programs are quite evolvable.
02:23:07 <Patashu> yeah, you need a programming language (and programming) that is highly redundant
02:23:18 <uorygl> Like the color scheme, the GUI, how often the garbage collector runs, choice of algorithms...
02:23:19 <Patashu> or you need mutations described syntactically not on the per letter word
02:23:48 <uorygl> If a garbage collector runs every 100 milliseconds, it's not going to break the program if that number is changed to 120.
02:23:51 <Sgeo> I think Creature brains were designed so that mutations don't become syntax errors
02:24:02 <Sgeo> uorygl, unless the program's time sensitive
02:24:08 <fax> Creature brains?
02:24:25 <fax> why does the topic say Alise-alert
02:24:34 <Sgeo> uorygl, wish to explain Creature brains?
02:24:49 <uorygl> I know very little about Creature brains.
02:25:01 <oerjan> fax: because it is weekend and e is not here
02:25:12 <uorygl> I know that they're neural nets.
02:25:20 <fax> was e supposed to come on this weekend?
02:25:45 <oerjan> fax: i think so. i didn't recall anything about _not_ coming.
02:26:15 <Sgeo> Creatures is a game [series] with Artificial Life
02:26:32 <Sgeo> The brains have lobes, containing neurons, and dendrites, connecting neurons
02:27:01 <Sgeo> The lobes and dendrites have SVRules, rules like "Get value from neuron" "Add 1 to accumulator"
02:27:11 <Sgeo> But at some level, it's easy to mutate, I think
02:27:27 <Sgeo> But in C3, they don't mutate, so it's a bit of a moot point
02:31:31 <uorygl> It would be fun to make a program that evolves bits of circuitry.
02:31:47 <Patashu> people do that in real life already
02:32:04 <Patashu> there's this special kind of circuit that has lots of circuits and randomly mutates its configuration
02:32:14 <Patashu> and it's used to create circuits to satisfy some requirement
02:32:24 <Patashu> and often it's not obvious how the created circuit actually does its job
02:32:29 <Patashu> (just like biological evolution!)
02:32:37 <fax> I want to write a program that evolves something
02:32:37 <uorygl> Is that called the Insane FPGA? :P
02:32:44 <uorygl> I think Tim Tyler wrote about something like that.
02:33:12 <uorygl> I was going to lament about how Tim Tyler's name is nowhere on cell-auto.com, but actually it is.
02:35:29 <oerjan> well now you can't, because lament's not here!
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02:57:26 * oerjan crawls out from under rock
02:57:33 <oerjan> uorygl: you might try again now
02:57:59 <uorygl> I was going to lament about how Tim Tyler's name is nowhere on cell-auto.com, but actually it is.
02:58:06 <uorygl> There, did I succeed in lamenting that time?
02:58:18 <oerjan> hopefully we'll soon find out
03:03:18 * uorygl ponders what to do next.
03:05:24 <oerjan> you could take up quilting
03:06:36 <uorygl> I think I'll suddenly decide that I do understand Plash after all, and thus write a wiki using it.
03:07:15 <oerjan> then you'll discover you were wrong, but only after making a completely hilarious site
03:08:21 * uorygl listens to John Powell's "This Is Berk".
03:08:42 <uorygl> I hope I'm spreading my tweets over sufficiently many IRC channels. :P
03:09:15 <uorygl> You were foiled by my listening to "This Is Berk"?
03:09:20 <oerjan> depends. how many have banned you so far?
03:09:32 <oerjan> yes. it is way outside my expertise.
03:09:53 <oerjan> then you are not trying hard enough.
03:10:35 * uorygl tries to SSH to zbasu.net.
03:11:30 * uorygl fails after trying four different usernames.
03:11:45 * oerjan googletects a lojban word
03:12:09 * uorygl resets its root password.
03:12:36 * uorygl moves his Chrome window so that he can see some of iTunes.
03:14:57 * oerjan talks about himself in the third person
03:14:57 * uorygl resets its non-root password and deletes its root password, then ensures that non-root has sudo access before exiting.
03:15:25 * uorygl does the same, but in a manner that makes it impossible to tell what set of pronouns is being used.
03:15:54 <uorygl> Let's see... I need apache.
03:16:30 * uorygl looks up who his DNS is run by.
03:17:48 * uorygl tries to remember why he didn't switch to Linode.
03:18:08 * uorygl wonders whether he ever got that refund for canceling within the first seven days.
03:18:14 <uorygl> Yes, that's how you spell "canceling".
03:19:02 <HackEgo> * canceled - Alternative spelling of cancelled; Alternative spelling of cancelled \ [22]en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canceled \ * To prevent further use of a printing plate after an edition has been printed, the artist sometimes "cancels" the plate by X-ing it out or in some other way defacing it. Sometimes cancellation
03:19:30 * uorygl finishes listening to Aleksi Aubry-Carlson's "Battle Music" and begins listening to Marc Russo's "Central Park Sunday".
03:19:43 <uorygl> As you can tell, I like listening to artists whose names are people's names.
03:20:00 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
03:20:23 <uorygl> I would listen to Modest Mouse, but unfortunately "Modest" isn't generally used as a first name.
03:20:23 <oerjan> I THINK THAT'S QUITE ENOUGH OF THAT
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03:21:08 <Sgeo> Wait, what did uorygl do?
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03:22:48 <uorygl> I feel so much better now that I've been kickbanned.
03:23:39 <oerjan> one of these days i'll get to use ops for something actually serious
03:23:59 <lament> uorygl: you mean you wouldn't listen to Modest Mussorgsky either?
03:26:11 <uorygl> Well, I might, now that you've asked.
03:26:36 <uorygl> Yeah, I'd listen to that guy, but probably not much.
03:26:56 <Sgeo> Would you listen to Eliezer?
03:27:07 <oerjan> i discovered on wikipedia yesterday there was actually an Alexandru Robot
03:27:12 <uorygl> Yes, I'd listen to an Eliezer.
03:27:29 <oerjan> alas, it was not his original name
03:27:59 <uorygl> Oh. Now I don't think I would listen to him.
03:28:51 <oerjan> well he was a poet not a musician
03:29:23 <uorygl> Nah, I think he was a musician.
03:29:45 <oerjan> are we talking about the same person
03:29:58 <uorygl> Not if I'm talking about a musician and you're talking about a non-musician poet.
03:30:20 <uorygl> Oh, you're talking about Alexandru Robot and I'm talking about Modest Muss . . . .
03:31:10 <oerjan> my plan to confuse you by not mentioning which lines i'm replying to has succeeded
03:31:22 <oerjan> took long enough though
03:31:55 <uorygl> If you really want to cause me sorrow, then refuse to teach me category theory.
03:32:20 <uorygl> So, is a colimit like a limit except that the functors of the cone all go to the same object rather than all coming from the same object?
03:32:36 <oerjan> all arrows are reversed yeah
03:33:20 <uorygl> Let me see if I can extend what I know of limits to colimits.
03:34:01 <oerjan> specifically, a colimit is a limit in the dual category
03:34:20 <uorygl> I guess it's pretty clear what the dual category is.
03:34:44 <uorygl> Do colimits involve covariant or contravariant functors?
03:35:48 <oerjan> i guess a contravariant functor is just a covariant functor with one of the categories dualized, so...
03:36:51 <oerjan> so if a limit in a dual category is a covariant functor, then the colimit is contravariant
03:37:30 <oerjan> *-dual, just confusing there
03:37:49 <uorygl> I guess for all this understanding of limits I have, I don't know which part of it "the limit" is. :P
03:38:16 <uorygl> Is it the cone? The cone's domain? The... I don't know what else it could be.
03:38:18 <oerjan> well i'm not much used to thinking of limits as functors really, although i _think_ i know how they are
03:38:49 <uorygl> I was under the impression that limits were *of* functors.
03:39:13 <oerjan> functors from a category of diagrams iirc
03:40:05 <uorygl> Here we go. "A limit of the diagram F : J -> C is a cone (L, φ) to F such that . . ."
03:40:26 <oerjan> the limit is probably itself a functor from the diagram to Hom(-, O) where O is the object we also call the limit
03:41:36 <oerjan> basically you need both the limit object and arrows from the original diagram's objects to it
03:41:57 <oerjan> hm perhaps a cone is this thing i mean
03:42:15 <fax> I don't understand this category theory stuff
03:42:28 <uorygl> fax: I didn't, either, but then somebody taught me, and then I did.
03:44:13 <oerjan> i don't know _that_ much category theory myself
03:44:33 <oerjan> just mostly learned what i needed to know
03:45:24 <oerjan> and things like limits weren't necessarily defined in the most abstract way possible, i don't really recall cones there
03:45:40 <uorygl> How much category theory did you need to know, and why did you need to know it?
03:45:47 <fax> there is not enough use of category theory to make it easy to learn
03:45:48 <Sgeo> "where she was released on her own recognizance."
03:45:55 <Sgeo> http://www.1010wins.com/Cops-Say-Teens-Planned-Attack-at-Connetquot-High/6997999
03:46:00 <fax> All the real uses of category theory are probably ridiculously advanced
03:46:06 <oerjan> well i did take homological algebra
03:46:11 <fax> so it is difficult to pick it up if you are a novice
03:46:18 <oerjan> and read a book on algebraic topology
03:46:42 <oerjan> and there were bits and pieces in other places probably
03:47:00 <uorygl> I still don't know any uses of category theory. :P
03:48:01 <oerjan> homological algebra is a main use of it, Saunders Maclane invented category theory for it i think
03:48:14 <uorygl> I mean, to learn what I know about category theory, I had to know what a set is, and what a function is. I think that's pretty much it.
03:49:58 <oerjan> algebra homomorphisms and linear transformations are important examples
03:50:16 <oerjan> (the latter is a special case of the former)
03:51:18 * uorygl suddenly realizes that he's tired.
03:51:44 <uorygl> Darn it, now how will I figure out what colimits look like?
03:52:19 <oerjan> it's like limits, except the colimit is on the other side :)
03:53:57 <uorygl> I suddenly feel like learning to draw would be a really good idea.
03:54:19 <uorygl> I'm good enough at visualizing abstract stuff; concrete stuff, not so much.
03:54:35 <oerjan> yeah category theory without diagrams is hopeless
03:55:04 <uorygl> I use mental diagrams.
03:55:10 <uorygl> They're more difficult but more powerful, too.
03:55:45 <oerjan> well the point is some proofs have more arrows than you can reasonably hold in your head
03:56:06 <uorygl> Then I will stare at them until I can hold them all in my head.
03:56:11 <uorygl> Unless there are, like, hundreds.
03:56:24 <uorygl> In which case I shall run away with my tail between my legs.
03:57:01 <oerjan> i have heard short-term memory only has room for about 7 items
03:57:39 <uorygl> That can be expanded with practice.
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10:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are there all these people with "wikipedia" in their hot names?
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11:07:40 <alise> Mrrf unt rffp krrngk rrt, rrrr///FEEDBACK
11:07:53 <alise> That is, No. xkcd.
11:08:01 <alise> Alert officially de-classified.
11:08:44 <alise> 19:20:33 --- mode: oerjan set +b *!*Warrigal@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com
11:08:45 <alise> 19:20:33 --- kick: uorygl was kicked by oerjan (uorygl)
11:10:26 <alise> 02:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are there all these people with "wikipedia" in their hot names?
11:10:30 <alise> Because Wikipedia is tooootally hot
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11:13:57 <alise> 15:18:17 <nooga> I see Alise's school hours
11:17:17 <alise> 08:50:15 <pikhq> Yes. My thoughts were more along the lines of making punctuation just be a very, very short way of writing some sort of word or phrase that should be said in various places. For instance, "foo, bar, qux quuxy." would be read as "foo comma bar comma qux quuxy stop".
11:17:19 <alise> ' is pronounced h in lojban
11:18:18 <alise> 10:47:46 <fizzie> Not even erotic Core War fanfics? How strange.
11:18:22 <alise> It'd have to be vore!
11:19:01 <alise> "As eras1b2v3 slowly ate at every single bit of standstill, it moaned by copying a few bits after it in the tape and wriggling along... but eras1b2v3 was too fast for it, and soon it was completely consumed."
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11:25:55 <alise> 20:39:37 <pikhq> dd just craps out on errors. ddrescue goes crazy and gets the data off the disc anyways.
11:25:57 <alise> reminds me of cdparanoia
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11:26:54 <alise> 16:18:10 <Oranjer> Malcolm Gladwell has some theories in his book Outliers, nooga
11:26:56 <alise> i have a theory that malcom gladwell is a charlatan
11:27:01 <alise> but i need 10,000 hours to confirm it...
11:28:18 <alise> 16:50:50 <nooga> ah, there's nothing better than setting your alarm clock in cron
11:28:22 <alise> apart from not setting your alarm clock at all
11:32:31 <alise> being called honey is possibly the biggest motivation so far to change my nick back :D
11:33:15 <alise> oh so I can't escape no matter what i do :D
11:33:56 <alise> So, UK election results: All the votes have been counted, and we still don't know who's won.
11:34:04 <alise> In fact nobody's won. State of complete anarchy. Have fun.
11:34:11 <alise> (I gather this is how it works.)
11:34:35 <pineapple> alise: as i posted on facebook, perhaps a better question to ask is "who lost?"
11:34:53 <pineapple> (no idea why i did that highlight there)
11:35:02 <pineapple> well... i was thinking "everyone", but yes
11:35:29 <alise> I like how everybody was so excited about the Lib Dems that they forgot to vote for them entirely.
11:35:44 <alise> Well, they can't win anyway, right? Neither can the Conservatives :P
11:36:08 <pineapple> you did notice that they had a higher popular vote, and a higher popular vote %age than in 2005, yes?
11:36:50 <pineapple> but admittedly, yes, i think that a lot of the people who wanted to vote lib dem ended up not doing so, because of tactical voting
11:36:53 <alise> Yes, but it's still nowhere near what everyone was raving about.
11:37:03 <alise> Some good that tactical voting did :-)
11:37:12 <pineapple> lib dem support dropped between debate 1 and debate 3
11:38:03 <alise> at least we've finally got a nice American Presidential election system
11:38:14 <pineapple> alise: i had something shived through my door wednesday evening saying "in 71 constituencies (yours is one of them), the best way to keep the tories out is to vote labour"
11:38:37 <alise> Well, it kept everybody out!
11:38:40 <alise> Which might actually be an improvement...
11:39:29 <pineapple> and that + similar pushes from the tories ("vote clegg, get brown") meant that those who wanted to vote lib dem switched to keep $CHOSEN_ENEMY out
11:40:16 <pineapple> my mother did very strongly consider voting labour to stop the tories here
11:40:18 <alise> These people are tarnishing the good name of rational tactical voting :P
11:40:37 <alise> If I was Russell O'Connor, I would be advocating stochastic elections.
11:40:38 <pineapple> i think that kinda backfired though
11:40:50 <pineapple> labour came 3rd here (Bristol North West)
11:40:54 <alise> (where tactical voting becomes "honest" voting)
11:41:24 <alise> "The stocastic voting system is the only voting system that gives proportional representation, local representatives, and where stratigic voting is never advantageous."
11:41:25 <pineapple> and i do wonder if, had there not been such a late push from labour, the lib dems would've taken it
11:41:59 <pineapple> what sort of voting system i would like to see has been on my mind the last couple of days
11:42:15 <pineapple> on the one hand, people voted for national reasons
11:42:22 <pineapple> but on the other, some people voted for local reasons
11:42:53 <alise> Stochastic election system:
11:42:56 <alise> [[I propose the following election system for Canada. In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat.
11:42:57 <alise> Random number generation can be done by having every candidate select a number between 1 and n (the number of votes cast). The selected numbers are summed modulo n, and the result is used to select the winner.
11:42:57 <alise> And yes, I think it is fair for the Marxist-Leninist Party to get one seat in Parliament once every 100 years.]]
11:42:57 <pineapple> one of my friends voted conservative over lib dem because of local issues
11:43:06 <alise> http://r6.ca/blog/20060122T172700Z.html
11:43:06 <alise> http://r6.ca/blog/20060217T201200Z.html
11:43:09 <alise> http://r6.ca/blog/20081016T174811Z.html
11:43:16 <alise> http://r6.ca/blog/20081107T061447Z.html
11:43:29 <alise> pineapple: no, I don't think you understand; he is serious
11:43:52 <pineapple> so... FPTP but, in each constituency, the %age vote is the chance that the candidate wins that seat?
11:44:04 <alise> Actually statistically it is perfectly benign and actually gives really good properties such that voting as you really want is the best possible strategy and such, but most people are probably too scared of "randomness" to like it
11:44:38 <pineapple> i can see many people hating that idea with a passion
11:44:51 <alise> [[This is only one example of the results of a stochastic election. Because of the stochastic nature of the election process, actual results may differ.
11:44:52 <alise> In Canadas election process, it is sometimes advantageous to not vote for ones preferred candidate. The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate. Therefore if the 2006 election were actually using a stochastic election system, people would be allowed to vote for their true preferences. The outcome could be somewhat different than what this simulation illustrates.]]
11:45:01 <alise> pineapple: Yes; most people do not really understand randomness.
11:45:08 <pineapple> "why the fuck would i want the prime minister to be decided by a dice roll???"
11:45:17 <alise> O'Connor's radical but he's always interesting.
11:45:23 <alise> Now if only he posted to his blog more.
11:45:41 <alise> just pull the prime minister out of a hat
11:45:42 <pineapple> this would be like rolling 650 imprefect dice
11:45:45 <alise> (not his name; the prime minister himself)
11:45:58 <alise> it would have to be a very big hat.
11:46:03 <alise> but that's the price we have to pay for democracy
11:46:19 <pineapple> and you say that this is used in Canada?
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11:46:44 <alise> [[In Canadas election process, it is sometimes advantageous to not vote for ones preferred candidate. The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate. Therefore if the 2008 election were actually using a stochastic election system, people would be allowed to vote for their true preferences. The outcome could be somewhat different than what this simulation illustrates.]]
11:46:49 <alise> it's just that Russell O'Connor is Canadian
11:46:53 <alise> so obviously he proposes this for Canada
11:47:19 <alise> and he simulates the results as if things were stochastic. Although of course his results are not accurate, because it will use tactical votes, which would happen less in a stochastic system (only idiots would do them because they would not help at all)
11:47:34 <alise> pineapple: He's also an anarchist; I'm not sure how those two things gel together but there you go.
11:47:40 <alise> Let's elect our no government.
11:47:43 <pineapple> you know the one thing this would do if applied here?
11:48:01 <alise> It would backfire horribly as most people wouldn't believe that tactical votes wouldn't work :-D
11:48:10 <alise> Perhaps we'd get the entire in a few hundred years.
11:48:14 <pineapple> not the Speaker of the house (see results for Buckingham)
11:48:41 <alise> NOT EVEN THE CITIZENS
11:49:06 <alise> We are writing to inform you that you have not been elected in the recent stochastic citizen elections.
11:49:23 <pineapple> i so hope that someone does a simulation based on our election results
11:49:42 <alise> pineapple: Ask him to :P he already has the code, and Canada shares our system
11:49:45 <alise> r.oconnor@cs.ru.nl
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11:58:34 <alise> Ghostly vacuum cleaner!
11:59:32 <alise> Why did you replace your wiki user page with Gone? ;|
11:59:37 <alise> WERE YOU RUNNING AWAY FROM ME
11:59:40 <alise> You cannot deny it.
12:02:56 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I was reading the stuff that you said why I was gone.
12:05:34 <alise> You were gone for an entire day :P
12:05:34 <alise> Also, I have more like three or four...
12:06:53 <alise> I'm a darned whippersnapper.
12:07:21 <alise> Anyway I just forget my passwords, or start disliking the names, usually.
12:07:22 <alise> I think I made the first account when I was 12 or 13.
12:08:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, the wiki *really* needs basic stuff like account creation logs.
12:08:40 <alise> It's done us well since 2005; if we were to change the software, I'd say we should even move off MediaWiki to something simpler.
12:08:42 <alise> Considering we use perhaps 30% of its features.
12:11:25 <pineapple> Phantom_Hoover: newer versions of mediawiki log account creation
12:11:25 <pineapple> (which has been the current stable version for a while)
12:11:25 <Phantom_Hoover> You can get it on older versions, it just doesn't come by default.
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12:15:16 <alise> When two servers in the network lose their connection to each other.
12:15:32 <alise> That's just to make it work with the syntax of IRC.
12:15:39 <alise> It used to be (server1 server2).
12:15:42 <alise> I guess they are masking that now.
12:15:47 <alise> In case you don't know: Everyone on IRC is connected to one server in a network.
12:15:50 <alise> These are all connected together.
12:15:59 <alise> When you send a message, it propagates through all the servers, eventually reaching everyone.
12:16:07 <alise> When two servers lose their connection to each other, messages can obviously not pass between them.
12:16:21 <alise> So the people who your messages reach via the two servers disconnect from your end.
12:16:26 <alise> From their end, all of us will have disconnected.
12:16:35 <alise> So we're on the better side of the split; they only have three people, we have everyone else.
12:16:44 <alise> They should reconnect soon once the split is over.
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12:29:26 <pineapple> Phantom_Hoover: the traditional netsplit message shows which servers have split
12:29:49 <pineapple> many networks these days hide which servers have split off in one way or another
12:30:02 <pineapple> freenode does this as of ircd-seven
12:34:40 <alise> Is it a trade secret?
12:36:07 <alise> Dun dun DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
12:36:24 <pineapple> it can give away information about the network topology
12:36:39 <pineapple> which can be used by people to attack the network
12:37:15 <Phantom_Hoover> And you really *don't* want to know what the network topology is.
12:40:41 <alise> 07:25:37 <ais523> here's a nice mnemonic: -a looks at the entities, -e looks at the architectures
12:45:22 * alise comes up with a ridiculous idea.
12:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> If it involves the Freenode network topology, just stop.
12:47:05 <alise> 08:06:20 <AnMaster> and what do we learn from this? I think one of the things may be "free market is yet again proved not to work"
12:47:10 <alise> I don't think the FPGA situation is /anywhere near/ a free market.
12:47:38 <alise> (It involves bunnies, tries, and rape-murder.)
12:47:46 <alise> I didn't mean to write tries. But it involves tries too.
12:48:01 <alise> The end result is, surprisingly enough, custard.
12:49:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Whatever you do, don't try to use it to find out the Freenode network topology.
12:52:57 <alise> 10:10:27 <AnMaster> any linux tools for verilog btw?
12:52:57 <alise> 10:11:08 <ais523> no free ones that I know of
12:53:57 <alise> 10:58:18 <coppro> apparently GSOC gave me a free membership in ACM for a year
12:54:07 <alise> download EVERYTHING
12:54:56 <Phantom_Hoover> But make sure you don't use anything that tells you the Freenode network topology.
12:55:37 <alise> 11:26:21 <Phantom_Hoover> So, are there any decent free CASs?
12:55:38 <alise> 11:26:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I've tried Maxima, but I was wondering.
12:55:38 <alise> 11:26:51 <pikhq> Maxima's pretty much it.
12:55:43 <alise> and some misc ones like sage
12:55:47 <alise> pirate mathematica, or w/e
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13:37:06 <alise> `sh /usr/bin/ping 2>&1
13:37:09 <alise> `sh /bin/ping 2>&1
13:37:17 <alise> `sh /bin/ping sex.com
13:37:56 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.14674/bin/ping
13:38:08 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less
13:38:23 <HackEgo> 2to3-2.6 \ X11 \ [ \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ apropos \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-curses \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ axi-cache \ base64 \ basename \ bashbug
13:43:31 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.15037/bin/ping
13:43:52 <pineapple> `/tmp/hackenv.15037/bin/ping esolangs.org
13:44:12 <pineapple> `ls -l /tmp/hackenv.15037/bin/ping
13:44:28 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
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13:48:40 <HackEgo> 12:48:15 up 69 days, 7:23, 0 users, load average: 0.17, 0.11, 0.03 \ USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT
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13:50:10 <alise> Of most unacceptable Geoff'ry;
13:50:51 <Phantom_Hoover> What commands let you write directly to files from the command line?
13:51:11 <alise> `sh echo FUCK >fuckness
13:51:21 <alise> I think it has to be somewhere special to persist.
13:51:23 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.15837 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1
13:52:20 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
13:52:33 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ WA='http://www24.wolframalpha.com' \ \ dowget() { \ wget -U "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.9.0.11) Gecko/2009060214 Firefox/3.0.11" "$@" \ return "$?" \ } \ \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Look up what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr "
13:53:14 <alise> `wolfram solve 1/x = x-1
13:53:22 <alise> It is not really such a good interface.
13:53:26 <alise> And why isn't it working?
13:54:10 <alise> A shit is not given.
13:54:38 <alise> Alpha fails at that, heh.
13:54:46 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but it explains why they wouldn't be too concerned with making it possible for a script to use it.
13:54:59 <alise> `wolfram solve x = 1 + (1/x)
13:55:16 <alise> `wolfram solve x^2 = 2
13:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Like I said, the script doesn't work with Alpha at all.
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13:59:18 <HackEgo> Lazy K, designed by [6]Ben Rudiak-Gould, is a [7]Turing tarpit based on [8]combinatory logic. It is lazily evaluated and purely functional. \ \ Contents \ \ * [9]1 History \ * [10]2 Instructions \ * [11]3 Input and output \ * [12]4 Lazier \ * [13]5 Hello world \ * [14]6 See also
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14:08:33 <alise> phi = -2 sin(666 degrees)
14:08:37 <alise> It is the devil's ratio.
14:09:45 <HackEgo> (-2) * sin(666) = 0.0352832916
14:09:45 <alise> `calc -2 * sin(666 * 180/pi)
14:09:45 <HackEgo> (-2) * sin((666 * 180) / pi) = -1.86752473
14:09:50 <alise> `calc -2 * sin(666 * pi/180)
14:09:51 <HackEgo> (-2) * sin((666 * pi) / 180) = 1.61803399
14:12:40 <alise> Well, then why did you do that calculation?
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14:17:23 <Patashu> equivalent to sin(3/10 radians) = (1+sqrt(5)/4
14:17:52 <Patashu> indicating it's radians instead of degrees
14:17:55 <alise> perhaps you meant sin_rad(3/10) to distinguish the two functions :P
14:18:15 <alise> I guess if you take sin = sin_deg usually it makes sense and radians = 180/pi
14:18:19 <alise> but I don't think anybody does that...
14:20:07 <alise> grr... we really need a mathematica bot in here, it would be nice.
14:32:08 <Patashu> you can always go with a 'wolfram alpha' bot
14:33:29 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Someone would need to buy or pirate it.
14:33:35 <alise> freenode would not give a shit
14:33:37 <alise> it's our client, our responsibility
14:33:46 <alise> and i already have it pirated anyway... although not on this machine
14:34:04 <alise> I'd get it on this machine but I'm on 3G internet and it's ~4GB
14:34:11 <alise> more like 600mb downloading
14:34:16 <alise> (since it decompresses and downloads stuff)
14:34:22 <alise> actually it's more like 1gb
14:34:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So Freenode aren't responsible if someone makes an open interface to Mathematica?
14:35:16 <alise> also that's the os x version
14:35:21 <alise> i don't think their os x version is their most optimised...
14:35:40 <alise> and i think i cached parts of wolfram's data repositories
14:35:41 <alise> Patashu: remember that mathematica is /the/ biggest ball of mud ever conceived of
14:37:30 * alise considers getting the non-3g connection to work
14:39:07 <alise> Mathematica isn't all that hot, really, but it's more reliable than Alpha and has more stuff.
14:39:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes, by far.
14:39:35 <alise> Maple is also a good pay CAS.
14:39:44 <alise> brb to set up my net
14:41:31 <fizzie> alise: As for why I didn't do a Mathemabot; our campus licenses are from a limited, shared pool that manages to be sometimes empty; they wouldn't probably be very happy if were to tie one of them to a IRC-bot. Not to mention it might not be quite according to the license terms.
14:42:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely Wolfram don't want you giving access to Mathematica from a public channel?
14:42:26 <fizzie> Yes, that sounds possible.
14:43:05 <Patashu> but would it be permissible if, say
14:43:10 <Patashu> I asked you to do a calculation on mathematica for me?
14:43:36 <fizzie> The student license of Mathematica is pretty reasonably priced, anyhow. It's just that you're supposed to upgrade it to real license (with a nice discount) when studies end.
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15:04:54 <alise> ``O LORDY ON HIGH--
15:05:25 <alise> Connection is not working.
15:05:31 <alise> Download 600mb via 3G, I think not.
15:07:06 <alise> The GUI on Linux is very, very bad and laggy.
15:07:56 <alise> Yes; but you lose a lot of the shiny-pretties that are partly the reason to use Mathematica, and also it's harder to read the output.
15:08:02 <alise> Mathematical notation is not very well textised.
15:09:16 <alise> Maybe consider Maple? I haven't used it but it doesn't seem too bad.
15:10:06 <alise> The website is significantly more cheesy though.
15:11:42 <alise> The nice things about Mathematica over Alpha are (a) more supported functions and the like, (b) far less ambiguous syntax, and (c) you can create definitions and use them later.
15:11:50 <alise> Which allows a far wider exploration of theoretical stuffs.
15:19:28 <alise> Actually you can do it however you want.
15:19:37 <alise> Mathematica is a symbolic language; it's just tree-writing, so everything is inspectable.
15:19:40 <alise> Sort of like quoting /everything/ in Lisp.
15:25:05 <alise> Sure... but that's really easy.
15:25:29 <alise> I mean, in Mathematica, you do derivatives with e.g. D[x^2, x].
15:25:29 <alise> D is just a normal function -- well, a built-in, but still --
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15:25:43 <alise> and it takes "symbolic" arguments like that.
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15:42:30 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
15:42:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ubuntu 9.04(!) atm.
15:42:39 <HackEgo> To be considered successful, a woman must be much better at her job \ than a man would have to be. Fortunately, this isn't difficult.
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15:42:47 <HackEgo> This must be morning. I never could get the hang of mornings.
15:42:50 <HackEgo> Paul's Law: \In America, it's not how much an item costs, it's how much you save.
15:42:54 <HackEgo> A good reputation is more valuable than money. \-- Publilius Syrus
15:43:29 <HackEgo> Befunge is a two-dimensional [6]esoteric programming language invented in 1993 by [7]Chris Pressey with the goal of being as difficult to compile as possible. \ \ Contents \ \ * [8]1 History \ * [9]2 Etymology \ * [10]3 Language overview \ * [11]4 Instructions \ * [12]5 Computational
15:47:25 <AnMaster> tex + exec ends up as a very strange-looking word: texexec
15:47:41 <AnMaster> (and yes, that exists in /usr/bin for me)
15:58:31 <alise> XXX hot barely legal TeX implementations.
16:11:38 <Rugxulo> "This is a LOLCODE interpreter I wrote as a project for my Computer Programming class." ... wow, somebody used it in school ^_^
16:11:46 <Rugxulo> http://www.assembla.com/code/iqpk/subversion/nodes/islip
16:12:42 <alise> also the proper way to address an MP is (this was asked a while ago iirc)
16:12:54 <alise> The Right Honourable First Last MP
16:13:09 <alise> The Rt. Hon. First Last MP for short should do.
16:14:22 <Rugxulo> so I presume "Yo, bonesmoker!" ain't kosher? ;-)
16:15:06 <Rugxulo> " 'Ey, Smeghead, so how it's goin', parlamentin' 'n stuff?"
16:16:51 <alise> I guess if you really wanted to be formal in a way nobody else is, you would say
16:17:02 <alise> The Right Honourable Nick Clegg, Member of Parliament
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16:19:22 <Rugxulo> The Right Honourable Oer Jan, Member of Esotericment
16:19:35 <alise> *rjan Johansomething
16:19:42 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Why are there all these people with "wikipedia" in their hot names?
16:19:55 <alise> my name-memorising & norwegtongue-spelling is not so good.
16:20:08 <alise> I can never spell Norwegian. I always type Norweigan.
16:20:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's because of masked hostnames
16:20:32 <alise> somebody's in #wikipedia, asks an ircop "hey MASK ME" and voila wikipedia/
16:20:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: those are "cloaks" i believe, you can register one if you don't want people to see your IP.
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16:21:46 <oerjan> alise: you almost had it correct. just remember that it's -sen in norwegian and danish, but -son in swedish. mostly.
16:22:28 <alise> and it's pronounced yohan yohansen, I hope
16:22:32 <oerjan> sometimes -sson in swedish, but never -ssen in the others
16:22:33 <alise> I know your first name is vaguely pronounced yohan
16:22:38 <alise> I just hope that Johan is pronounced ~yohan too
16:22:54 <oerjan> yes it is, but they are not pronounced the same ;D
16:23:24 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlett_Johansson
16:23:42 <oerjan> there is apparently a current norwegian historic film about someone literally named yohan.
16:24:17 <alise> mind if I call you double-Y for long?
16:24:23 <alise> Hey, double y, how's it hanginnnnnnnnn
16:24:42 <oerjan> my first name does _not_ start with y, dammit.
16:25:01 <oerjan> although incidentally there is a lot of dialect variation between y and ø in norwegian
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16:25:04 <AnMaster> <alise> Teh sex, eck. <-- not what I meant XD
16:25:21 <alise> oerjan: fine then, double-
16:25:45 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Johansson
16:25:59 <alise> so if you appeared in an episode of the Simpsons, oerjan, as a new member of the Simpsons family, you'd be .J. Simpson
16:26:03 <Rugxulo> "American-born Canadian actor" ... sounds weird
16:26:03 <AnMaster> <oerjan> there is apparently a current norwegian historic film about someone literally named yohan. <-- is that common?
16:26:14 <alise> AnMaster: obviously not, or it wouldn't be notable
16:26:20 <oerjan> yep, Yrjan is an actual norwegian name. very rare though, only 40 persons or so http://www.norskenavn.no/navn.php?id=2491
16:27:17 <oerjan> also, you will sometimes find people defying the -sen/-son distinction by actually descending from the other country, naturally
16:27:34 <AnMaster> hm, I can only think of one Swedish name starting with y, and it may very well be "imported" from some other language.
16:27:53 <AnMaster> (that doesn't mean there doesn't exist other ones)
16:28:34 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: According to WP ø is pronounced as someone with a non-rhotic English accent would say "ir".
16:28:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, isn't it pronounced mostly like ö?
16:29:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, btw, which English accents are non-rhotic?
16:29:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: Yohan is so rare that that website doesn't have it. "Grunnen er at det er 3 eller færre som har dette som første fornavn i Norge, og disse er derfor ikke tatt med i navnelistene som er mottatt fra Statistisk sentralbyrå av personvernhensyn."
16:30:12 <oerjan> i.e. it's so rare it would be a privacy violation to include it.
16:30:33 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Most of England, I think Wales, Australia and NZ.
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16:30:44 <Rugxulo> no rarer than Dromhall (or whatever it was) ;-)
16:30:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, most except US then?
16:30:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: yngvar, yngve, those aren't swedish names?
16:30:59 <Rugxulo> yngwie, yes ... famous guitarist
16:31:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is ingvar and ungve
16:32:10 <oerjan> oh. it exists in norwegian. Yngvar Numme is a comedian.
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16:32:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, as for the one I originally thought of, googling indicates it is French in origin
16:32:23 <oerjan> also Ingvar and Ingvard (my father's name)
16:32:41 <AnMaster> (it was "Yvonne", which is not very common, but neither very rare)
16:32:48 <alise> shouldn't you be rjan Ingvardsen then :D
16:33:16 <oerjan> oh yvonne yeah that's probably french
16:33:18 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yvonne was the one I thought of originally when I said: <AnMaster> hm, I can only think of one Swedish name starting with y, and it may very well be "imported" from some other language.
16:33:30 <Rugxulo> yes, Yvonne is french, same as Yves
16:33:44 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it is not completely uncommon in Sweden though
16:34:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw, yngve sounds archaic to me
16:34:27 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, well, who knows what language that comes from
16:34:49 <alise> I wish Mathematica was... small.
16:35:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: chances are yohan will pick up now though, with the movie
16:35:03 <Rugxulo> Yvette, another French name
16:35:18 <alise> You cannot easily pirate some hundreds of megabytes on a 3G connection.
16:35:24 <AnMaster> alise, in memory usage while running or?
16:35:44 <AnMaster> alise, but didn't you have it before too?
16:35:47 <oerjan> alise: norwegian -sen names aren't patronymicons any longer, only the icelandic do that afaik
16:35:55 <alise> AnMaster: on another machine, alas.
16:36:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: "Yohan Barnevandreren" is a new norwegian movie this year. i haven't seen it.
16:36:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: surnames based on father's first name
16:36:47 <oerjan> as -sen and -son originally were
16:36:55 <AnMaster> that raises another question: how the hell can that concept be named "patronymicons"
16:37:13 <AnMaster> "patronymicons" is a really strange thing for, well, anything at all
16:37:23 <oerjan> la:pater = father, gr:onyma = name
16:37:33 <oerjan> possible gr:pater = father too
16:37:46 <alise> yeah patriarchy ~~ patro
16:38:08 <AnMaster> okay so the "pateronym" bit makes sense, the "icons" bit does not
16:38:16 <oerjan> -icon = -ic-on where -ic is like in electric and -on is the neuter nominative ending in greek
16:38:17 <alise> ic ~~ as in "epic"
16:38:20 <Rugxulo> forget "icons", that's a bogus ending anyways
16:38:29 <alise> ons ~~ set, collection, sort of thing?
16:38:33 <alise> That's a really bad description, but
16:38:37 <alise> it doesn't require any knowledge of latin or greek :P
16:38:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, does -ic in electric have some special meaning?
16:38:50 <alise> -satisfying-property
16:38:51 <Rugxulo> I never learned (ancient) Greek, but I think "on" is normal subject ending and "os" is plural (or such)
16:38:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's just a greek way to turn a noun into an adjective
16:38:58 <alise> if a name is patronymic
16:39:06 <alise> if a thing is patronymic
16:39:10 <alise> it is a name that descends from fathers
16:39:16 <Rugxulo> pyrrhic, classic, technique, etc.
16:39:19 <alise> ons -- the set of all things that are patronymic
16:39:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, so electricity is noun -> adjective -> noun?
16:39:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: like -lig in no/sw
16:39:49 <Rugxulo> television -> Greek-based word
16:39:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: yeah greek electric + lating -itas
16:39:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, eh? removing -lig from the first three words with that ending that I thought of returned nonsense
16:40:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: barnlig for example?
16:40:51 <AnMaster> that gives nonsene if you remove the "-lig"
16:41:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: well swedish may have mangled things historically, like every other language
16:41:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, also barnlig must be Norwegian only? Is it perhaps the same as sv:barnslig
16:41:19 <oerjan> isn't that guld + -lig or something?
16:41:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually it's barnslig in norwegian too
16:41:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: sounds like it could come from gul[dl]
16:42:19 <oerjan> except barnlig is sometimes used as a more positive version i think
16:42:43 <oerjan> barnslig has the connotation of immature, while barnlig is more child-like
16:42:53 <oerjan> different connotations
16:43:08 <AnMaster> and barnlig doesn't exist in Swedish
16:43:10 <oerjan> i don't think barnlig is so common though
16:43:18 <AnMaster> but yes barnslig means immature
16:43:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw how would you translate förnurlig to English?
16:44:05 <alise> Argh, why are big-operator notations so hard to translate into ASCII?
16:44:30 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, you know, to someone who actually know a language where that letter exists and read it like it is supposed to be pronounced, that ends up very strange.
16:44:43 <alise> I guess I quite like "∑(k=m, n) x" for $\sum_{k=m}^n x$.
16:44:55 <Rugxulo> no stranger than some other esoteric languages lk
16:45:19 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, but try reading that aloud as it should be pronounced :P
16:45:34 <Rugxulo> for me, it's all pronounced the same ;-)
16:45:45 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, didn't wikipedia tell you how
16:45:53 <AnMaster> you said something like something in some accents
16:46:11 <oerjan> alise: -on in greek has nothing with sets to do, it's just a case/gender ending.
16:46:15 <AnMaster> that was <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: According to WP ø is pronounced as someone with a non-rhotic English accent would say "ir".
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16:46:43 * Rugxulo still can't understand how to pronounce Ejdffakasdkjfasdfalkv
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16:47:32 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and I have no clue either
16:47:39 <AnMaster> Islandic is rather.... special
16:47:40 <Rugxulo> sorry, can't be bothered to memorize the spelling of such an insane name
16:47:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: btw gr:electron = amber (also i'm responding to old messages i know)
16:47:51 <alise> it's pronounced Ey ya falla joke ull, obviously!
16:47:53 <alise> AnMaster: *Icelandic
16:48:08 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Eyjafjallaj%C3%B6kull-bjarmason.ogg
16:48:21 <Rugxulo> the .ogg on Wikipedia seemed to ignore the last "ull" part
16:48:31 <AnMaster> alise, sorry, en:iceland = sv:island, en:island = sv:ö
16:48:40 <Rugxulo> "ehv-ja-jalv-kvik" (if I remember correctly, which isn't likely)
16:48:43 <AnMaster> alise, this causes some confusion sometimes
16:49:12 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, part of that volcano name makes sense for me, I can roughly split it as a concatenation of at least three parts.
16:49:22 <Deewiant> The only "hard" part about pronouncing that is knowing that ll in Icelandic is [tl]
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16:49:31 <alise> How often do you guys need to talk about islands?
16:49:39 <Deewiant> And that j is [j] I suppose, if you're English
16:49:59 <oerjan> we likes our geography short, you see
16:50:26 <AnMaster> alise, no, it is a verb meaning something I don't know the English word for
16:50:34 <oerjan> i think that would be öar or something. øyer in norwegian.
16:50:37 <AnMaster> if you get water *inside* a boat, you need to use that verb
16:51:21 <Rugxulo> oar as in boat stick thingy?
16:51:30 <AnMaster> btw about that volcano Eyja-fjalla-jökull I think. the middle part looks similar to Swedish "fjäll", which is not the same as a mountain (sv:berg) but I think it translates to en:mountain anyway
16:51:36 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: The ¨ matters, you know :-P
16:51:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it is to move the water out of the boat
16:51:40 <oerjan> alise: the surprising thing about eyjafjallajökull pronunciation (for a norwegian) is that the ll's are more like dl
16:51:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not by a pump, but by hand
16:52:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ah. Then the English phrase "bail out" makes no sense
16:52:54 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also you can ösa without a boat being involved. Say, to fill a bucket or whatever.,
16:52:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Words can have more than one meaning (and phrases moreso)
16:53:26 <Rugxulo> deewiant, wind != wind, bow != bow
16:53:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes quite, I was just too lazy to fix the sed line
16:54:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about the first part? eyja?
16:54:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, I can't figure out how to pronounce yj
16:55:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: well from the clips i've heard, it sounds like they're just prolonging the e and then passing to j
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16:55:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah that was much more helpful than what Phantom_Hoover and Deewiant said.
16:56:15 <AnMaster> (because I suck at IPA and also couldn't figure out what the heck ""y"-voiced "sh"" was)
16:56:34 <Deewiant> Voiced-"sh" presumably meant the English j sound
16:57:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw that thing about ll, does that apply to both the first and the second ll?
16:57:28 <Rugxulo> rot13 (probably easier to pronounce, heh): rlwnswnyynwbxhyy
16:57:30 <oerjan> also the last -ll makes sense when you know it's unvoiced so the actual l part is almost inaudible. or so i read.
16:57:32 <Deewiant> I'll just paste the IPA from Wikipedia so we can stop guessing: [ˈɛɪjaˌfjatlaˌjœkʏtl]
16:58:01 <AnMaster> but a Dane could most likely manage it
16:58:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, it applies to all ll's in Icelandic
16:58:29 <Rugxulo> eyjafjallajokull ??? "I, ya, fall a joke all" ???
16:58:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and do you find eyjafjallajökull easy to pronounce?
16:58:39 <Rugxulo> the joke's on us, it's not real, we've been had!
16:59:16 <oerjan> Rugxulo: everyone knows it's just a giant insurance scam to get away from all that debt
16:59:43 <Rugxulo> you can't trust a language without "c" or "z" ;-)
17:00:05 <AnMaster> btw it doesn't make much sense to me that the Icelandic people should have to pay that. Shouldn't it really be that bank that had to pay it
17:00:06 <oerjan> poles are so trustable
17:00:07 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: "eyafyatlayocutel" would be my initial attempt at Englishification
17:00:41 <alise> Eyjafjallajkull is really just a plot by the Icelandic people to avoid paying anything.
17:00:53 <alise> They will pepper all the discussions about paying it back with that word, so as to avoid anyone pronouncing it.
17:00:56 <alise> Thus, discussions will collapse.
17:00:56 <pikhq> Voiced consonants are probably *really* easy to grasp for Japanese speakers...
17:01:17 <pikhq> "sh" and "j", for instance, are differentiated in their writing system by a voicing mark.
17:01:29 <AnMaster> alise, oh btw how did the UK election work out? Saw something in the paper today about no singly party being able to rule alone.
17:01:36 <pikhq> ゛<- Stick that on a kana, and now it's voiced!
17:02:05 <alise> AnMaster: Yes; the Conservatives got more seats than anyone else, but not enough to form a government.
17:02:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's hungtastic.
17:02:16 <alise> So both the Tories (Conservatives) and Labour are scrambling to make a deal with the Liberal Democrats.
17:02:26 <Deewiant> ゜<- stick that on a kana, and it's incorrect in general
17:02:35 <alise> The Liberal Democrats really want election reform and also for Brown to resign if Labour, so basically they're going to pound both parties in the ass to get what they want.
17:02:35 <oerjan> alise: i also read that labour + lib dems don't have a majority in common
17:02:44 <alise> After all, if they don't co-operate with the lib dems, they won't get any power.
17:02:52 <alise> oerjan: No; that's why you pile in a bunch of other random parties with them.
17:03:07 <pikhq> か゜I have no idea how to pronounce that.
17:03:12 <oerjan> random parties that never matter otherwise :)
17:03:23 <AnMaster> alise, but can Labour + the liberal democrats rule alone? And what about minor other ones. Saw something about that in the statistics in the paper. A few seats to small parties
17:03:37 <AnMaster> mostly wales and North Ireland iirc
17:03:38 <alise> AnMaster: No, they cannot rule alone. That is why they would go to a bunch of random tiny parties.
17:03:39 <oerjan> alise: it also means the conservatives have more options than labour in theory, right?
17:03:43 <alise> That way they can get a government.
17:03:43 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/???. (oh goody)
17:03:58 <Rugxulo> looked fine when I cut/pasted it
17:04:02 <alise> Also, the Lib Dems I think would rather ally with the Tories: people really hate Labour, so people won't really like the Lib Dems if they ally with Labour.
17:04:11 <alise> Of course, the Tories and the Lib Dems are basically complete opposites...
17:04:13 <AnMaster> alise, hm, could all those small parties + the conservatives form a government?
17:04:16 <alise> But the Lib Dems have a lot of power right now.
17:04:24 <oerjan> conservatives, bnp and ukip, ftw! >;D
17:04:30 <alise> AnMaster: Most of the little parties involved are left-wing.
17:04:33 <oerjan> or something like that
17:04:53 <AnMaster> alise, I really want to see UK's election system changed to a saner one.
17:05:07 <alise> AnMaster: But, if both Labour and the Conservatives fail to make a deal with the Lib Dems, the Conservatives will rule as a minority government until the whole country collapses from sheer indecision.
17:05:15 <oerjan> alise: how many small parties _are_ there? i only know of ukip and bnp
17:05:25 <oerjan> which definitely don't sound left to me
17:05:35 <AnMaster> alise, true, that is an issue, but what are the rules for forming a minority government?
17:05:36 <alise> surely you have heard of the greens (though they barely exist and would be of ~no use)
17:05:44 <alise> but there's a bunch of scotland/ireland/wales specific left-wing parties
17:05:45 <oerjan> of course i only know of them because they're notorious, probably
17:05:57 <alise> AnMaster: um there aren't any I think
17:06:10 <alise> conservatives have more seats than anyone else, but everyone else still has a bunch of power, no specific government, Q.E.D.
17:06:18 <pikhq> Deewiant: I dunno, perhaps as a way of differentiating /ŋ/ and /g/?
17:06:58 <AnMaster> alise, ah, but what about prime minister post and such, doesn't the parliament have to vote about that or such?
17:07:17 <alise> I'm not actually sure about minority governments.
17:07:36 <AnMaster> and presumably that would need at least 50% yes votes or such (that tends to be the point of voting...)
17:07:54 <alise> About electoral reform, something I wrote:
17:07:57 <alise> In other news, a stochastic voting system (http://r6.ca/blog/20040603T005300Z.html) would have avoided this problem entirely. Some simulated Canadian elections with this system:
17:07:57 <alise> 2004 (http://r6.ca/blog/20060122T172700Z.html)
17:07:57 <alise> 2006: predictions (http://r6.ca/blog/20060125T200600Z.html), results (http://r6.ca/blog/20060217T201200Z.html)
17:07:59 <alise> 2008: predictions (http://r6.ca/blog/20081016T174811Z.html), results (http://r6.ca/blog/20081107T061447Z.html)
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17:08:03 <alise> Note that these results are not really accurate, because they use people's tactical votes that were meant to be used on the current system. In an actual stochastic election system, tactical voting would be voting for who you really want, so the votes and thus the results would differ.
17:08:22 <alise> AnMaster: Use the real votes, calculate the outcome with the stochastic system.
17:08:33 <AnMaster> so data from previous elections
17:08:41 <alise> current elections, usually, but yes
17:08:44 <alise> As I say in the last paragraph, this isn't accurate as people shouldn't "tactically vote" under a stochastic system
17:08:55 <alise> (as it's useless; the most rational policy is to vote for your preferred party)
17:09:06 <AnMaster> alise, does canada use such a stochastic system?
17:09:12 <alise> No. It's a bit radical.
17:09:26 <alise> Of course, the problem is that most people Do Not Understand Statistics, and thus would see "random candidate with strict distribution" as "OH MY GOD YOU ARE SELECTING OUR PRIME MINISTER WITH A /DICE ROLL/!?!?!?!?!"
17:09:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: the brits don't know how to do minority governments, they just panic >:)
17:10:09 <alise> "The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate."
17:10:14 <pikhq> Judging from what I've seen, the Brits don't know how to do efficient government.
17:10:18 <AnMaster> alise, hm, why use randomness really, what not a deterministic proportional system?
17:10:28 <alise> AnMaster: because "The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate."
17:10:30 <alise> this is mathematical fact
17:10:31 <pikhq> Massive, lumbering monsters, however? They've got that down to an art.
17:10:53 <alise> other desirable properties: no "major flips" due to a small number of votes
17:11:08 <AnMaster> alise, so there is proof that there can not be any other system that allows that property?
17:11:10 <alise> also, it's the only system where every vote truly /does/ count
17:11:15 <alise> AnMaster: yes, though I don't know it
17:11:24 <alise> but certainly no system anyone else has thought of has this property
17:11:36 <alise> the randomness /really/ doesn't matter, as O'Connor says,
17:11:40 <alise> "And yes, I think it is fair for the Marxist-Leninist Party to get one seat in Parliament once every 100 years."
17:11:51 <alise> so an extremely fringe party only gets a /single/ seat, and even then only once every 100 years, because of the randomness
17:12:02 <alise> so it's not really "unreliable" or "unpredictable" or "unsafe" in the slightest.
17:12:22 <alise> Of course, this is all theory; until the populace is more intelligent, people will read all this and still think "OMG DICE ROLL".
17:12:26 <pikhq> alise: People are heavily worried about the National Socialist Party getting all the seats.
17:13:06 <alise> pikhq: Yes. And you realise that statistically, it's more likely that, say, giant pigs come down from the sky, tell us that they're manifestations of God, and elaborate unto us a mind-virus that causes us all to actually vote for the Nazis willingly?
17:13:22 <alise> You do; but People (who are, as a rule, a stupid collective) don't.
17:13:25 <pikhq> *I* am well aware of this.
17:13:37 <pikhq> The average person knows fuck-all about statistics.
17:13:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about a modified variant that kept it within, say, 20% (fudge factor here, this number is a complete guesstimate) from the result you would have got from a proportional system?
17:14:10 <alise> AnMaster: Pointless.
17:14:12 <alise> Utterly pointless.
17:14:18 <AnMaster> alise, well sure, but it would calm people down
17:14:19 <alise> Randomness Does Not Work Like That.
17:14:24 <alise> -- and besides, it would just bring back injustice.
17:14:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: Might as well just use a proportional system.
17:14:31 <alise> Since it would make tactical voting WORK again.
17:14:35 <alise> Which is the whole bad point.
17:15:25 <AnMaster> alise, pick the number so that the system still work (really improbable that tactical voting would affect anything) but still small enough that the 100% for BNP wouldn't happen
17:15:38 <alise> AnMaster: you're talking nonsense
17:15:41 <alise> it just won't work like that
17:15:47 <alise> because the results can be significantly different from /every/ other voting process
17:15:52 <alise> which is the whole point
17:16:33 <AnMaster> alise, so how well does it reflect what people actually voted? If say, 50% voted for party A, will party A end up with roughly 50% of the seats?
17:17:09 <alise> The definition is /really simple/:
17:17:12 <alise> "In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat."
17:17:22 <alise> It's self-evident from the definition that 50% of votes ~> 50% of seats.
17:17:53 <oerjan> i take it it is roughly equivalent to picking a random voter for each seat, and taking their candidate
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17:18:26 <oerjan> or a candidate from their selected party
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17:18:52 <alise> AnMaster: riding is like constituency, I think?
17:19:03 <oerjan> oh hm this is still with british ridings, right
17:19:04 <alise> electoral district/constituency
17:19:47 <oerjan> alise: iiuc, with ridings, it would have one major flaw: there would be no way to ensure the party leaders were elected
17:19:54 <AnMaster> anyway I thought of a fair system, however you can only vote for parties, not for individual people. I can't see how tactical voting would work in that system.
17:19:56 <oerjan> which could surely cause problems
17:20:03 <alise> oerjan: hmm? I don't see how
17:20:17 <alise> AnMaster: Well, tell us the system then, so we can tell you its flaws.
17:20:54 <oerjan> alise: say if the conservatives want to be nearly sure cameron is elected. assuming no riding has > 90% conservative voters, they _cannot_ be sure he doesn't get thrown out
17:21:27 <alise> I'm not sure I fully understand, but - isn't it a /good thing/ to stop parties running on cults of personality?
17:21:32 <alise> We are not MEANT to have a Presidential system!
17:21:42 <oerjan> alise: well i guess _some_ might consider it a good thing
17:21:45 <alise> it's pollution in our political climate, this focus on the leaders
17:21:55 <alise> oerjan: you mean like everyone in UK systems until recently?
17:22:12 <AnMaster> alise, well you vote for the party you want, that is all there is to the voting, no "preferred candidate" or such. Then the votes are counted across the entire country (no "one winner per sector" or such stupid things like the US have), then each party get a proportional number of seats based on the result. Using round to nearest if a seat would end up with 58% of one party and the rest from another.
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17:22:27 <AnMaster> alise, I can't see the flaw in this rather simple system. There might be one
17:22:32 <oerjan> alise: if you say so, i don't know that much about UK pol. history
17:23:02 <alise> AnMaster: you would ideally like party P1 to be elected, but P1 does not get many votes usually. there are two main parties, P2 and P3; P2 is abhorrent, P3 is too but slightly less so. you really want to keep P2 out, even though P1 is your favourite, so you vote for P3.
17:23:08 <alise> That is what tactical voting means.
17:23:40 <AnMaster> alise, how would that work, if I cast the vote for P1 instead it wouldn't be to advantage for P2, would it?
17:24:01 <alise> imagine P2=50, P3=50 apart from your vote
17:24:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: i believe israel uses a system close to that
17:24:13 <alise> P1=2, P2=50, P3=50
17:24:21 <alise> P1=1, P2=50, P3=51
17:24:36 <alise> voting for P3 is better if you really don't want P2 to get in
17:24:36 <AnMaster> alise, so new idea instead of round to nearest: time share on that seat based on the votes for it XD
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17:25:15 <uorygl> `translate gidd det da
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17:25:32 <AnMaster> alise, say, you get one seat that would be 60% party A, 40% party B. with round to nearest it would go to party A, but with time share it would be party A 60% of the time, and party B 40% of the time
17:26:03 <uorygl> `translate Au au vondt vondt, det svir så utrolig lenge.
17:26:05 <HackEgo> Au au pain hurts, it stings so incredibly long.
17:26:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think one could do stochastic voting in a proportional system as well, would also solve the leader problem i mentioned (assuming one thinks it is a problem)
17:26:19 <AnMaster> alise, perhaps it should adjust for when the votes in the parliament are held, so make it 60%/40% of the votes cast instead
17:26:35 <uorygl> I think I would just have a 60% chance of giving it to party A and a 40% chance of giving it to party B.
17:27:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, when was the leader problem mentioned?
17:27:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't see how that is a problem
17:28:07 <AnMaster> and yes, doing it per sector is completely stupid for *any* system
17:28:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: parties might consider it a problem if their "top people" don't get into parliament
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17:28:44 <oerjan> although Venstre managed so last year in norway
17:28:51 <alise> oerjan never said doing it per sector is stupid
17:29:10 <alise> http://pastie.org/951548.txt?key=fim9ynr9xvnvulb6inula ;; Move over, ML, I've just invented a ridiculously abstract meta-language.
17:29:27 <AnMaster> alise, well this stochastic system wouldn't use ridings/sectors right?
17:29:32 <oerjan> alise: it was implied by my leader quibble, really
17:29:39 <alise> "In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat."
17:29:45 <alise> Perhaps you should read every word of that sentence.
17:30:09 <alise> The problem with not-per-ridings is
17:30:16 <alise> per-ridings means that in a stochastic system
17:30:26 <alise> everybody gets a number of seats ~= the portion of the popular vote
17:30:32 <alise> they get POWER PROPORTIONAL to their votes
17:30:35 <oerjan> this happened to Venstre because when a norwegian party gets sufficiently small, their outcome essentially _does_ dissolve into separate ridings
17:30:41 <alise> if you don't have ridings and just have one-party-rules-with-all-their-might,
17:30:53 <alise> because one wins and the rest don't
17:30:58 <alise> AnMaster: if you mean
17:31:02 <alise> do it without ridings but still have seats
17:31:02 <oerjan> (no smoothing out candidates for < 4% votes nationally)
17:31:05 <alise> then what do the seats correspond to?
17:31:10 <alise> how many should there be? Why?
17:31:11 <AnMaster> alise, ridings are a bad idea because if you live in an area where, say, 90% of the people prefer party A but you prefer party B, and over the whole country there are many areas with that distribution that means party B will be underrepresented.
17:31:17 <alise> basically this system eliminates the MEANING of constitutencies
17:31:22 <alise> but keeps them just to give an arbitrary total
17:31:39 <alise> AnMaster: oh, that is not how the stochastic system works
17:31:47 <alise> not sure how to explain BUT I'M SURE OERJAN CAN
17:32:19 <oerjan> uorygl: "gidd det da" sounds strange, but means roughly "bother with it then"
17:32:22 <AnMaster> alise, isn't that what ridings mean though?
17:32:31 <alise> I do not think so.
17:32:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Let's say it's 51% for 1 party, 49% for another party in *most* areas. About 51% of the seats will go to one party, and 49% to the other.
17:32:59 <AnMaster> I know the US election system has the issue I mentioned.
17:33:08 <alise> the us election system does not use ridings
17:33:11 <pikhq> Change the percentages, and it still works like that.
17:33:12 <uorygl> oerjan: well, it's in response to "Brannsår! :d digg!", if that helps.
17:33:25 <oerjan> uorygl: also "vondt vondt" is more like an outburst, like "ooh the pain"
17:33:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, do you mean that pikhq the distribution is calculated across the whole country?
17:33:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: If 90% of the people nation-wide prefer a party, about 90% of the seats will go to them.
17:34:00 <pikhq> This is just how the odds work out.
17:34:17 <uorygl> I wonder what the "digg!" is all about there.
17:35:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, right, as long as it doesn't end up like in US where that property does not hold true I'm okay with it
17:35:31 <alise> AnMaster: Yes, don't worry, it holds in a stochastic riding system.
17:35:46 <pikhq> (presuming that you have some relation between population of a subdivision and that subdivision's representation. The Senate on this system would be *royally* fucked up still.)
17:35:50 <AnMaster> alise, what about the current UK system, it has that problem too doesn't it?
17:36:17 <alise> current UK and Canada system
17:36:26 <alise> let's call it the Westminster system for clarity
17:36:31 <alise> I'm not sure it does
17:36:40 <alise> it's not proportional in any way
17:36:44 <oerjan> uorygl: digg is essentially an english borrowing
17:36:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah yes, each area need to have equal number of people in it if they have equal weight
17:36:45 <alise> stochastic elections are though
17:37:12 <uorygl> What does it mean in English? :P
17:37:44 <oerjan> uorygl: to like something?
17:37:44 <AnMaster> perhaps it is now outdated slang in English
17:37:52 <pikhq> As it is, in the US it is *perfectly* possible to have 5 people electing their own senator.
17:37:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
17:38:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, that term exists in Swedish too, I would never use it though
17:38:20 <oerjan> but i sort of thought digg was named after it, although it _could_ be about digging up stuff, i guess
17:38:20 <pikhq> It is moderately outdated slang in English, yes.
17:38:37 <uorygl> Digg is probably named after it.
17:38:46 <AnMaster> sounds outdated in Swedish too
17:38:46 <alise> yeah digg is named after dig it YOOOO
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17:40:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: as i see it the whole point of a stochastic system would be to allow national representation to be approximately based on total votes _despite_ having separate ridings
17:41:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: i quite expect that the path of borrowing went english -> swedish -> norwegian
17:43:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, and why would you want to have separate ridings?
17:43:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: i believe quite a lot of last century norwegian slang came via swedish
17:43:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: very _local_ representation, you get to elect someone from your local district
17:43:45 <uorygl> Is there any way for a web page to communicate with its iframes?
17:44:34 <oerjan> at least that's the thing i lately keep seeing as one major _advantage_ of the british system (that and the usual "some party has absolute majority and can govern efficiently")
17:45:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm okay, what about the Swedish election system then? iirc it rather complicated, something like proportional per party across the whole country, then to select the actual persons to fill those places it is based on where a party got most votes or some such
17:45:45 <oerjan> AnMaster: i guess that's similar to the norwegian one. in which case it is _somewhat_ local, but only on a county (län/fylke) basis?
17:46:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't remember which size of the district is used
17:47:39 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Sweden says "Seats in the various legislative bodies are allocated amongst the Swedish political parties proportionally using a modified form of the Sainte-Laguë method. This modification creates a systematic preference in the mathematics behind seat distribution, favoring larger parties over smaller parties which might otherwise win only a single seat. At the core of it, the system remains intensely
17:47:39 <AnMaster> proportional, and thus a party which wins approximately 25% of the vote should win approximately 25% of the seats."
17:48:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: in norway basically _most_ representatives are elected "directly" from counties (with more than one per county though), and then the national representation is smoothed out with one extra seat per county
17:48:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, it could be that, I'm not completely sure
17:49:42 <AnMaster> oh and: "The candidates chosen from each party are determined by two factors: the candidate's ranking by their party and the number of preference votes from the voters. Though the parties still entirely control the names on their own party lists, the system gives the voters a degree of power in choosing candidates from the list. For instance, in national parliamentary elections, any candidates who receive a number of personal votes equal to ei
17:49:43 <AnMaster> ght percent or greater of the party's total amount of votes will automatically be bumped to the top of the list, regardless of their ranking on the list by the party. This threshold is only five percent for local elections and elections to the European Parliament."
17:49:53 <oerjan> iirc it was increased to one extra seat per county because the lower number frequently meant extra votes to a party were frequently allocated to a district where they _didn't_ have significant votes. this may still be a problem, i don't know.
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17:51:58 <oerjan> we have (had?) those preference vote things too, i think they almost never matter
17:52:43 <oerjan> but then i don't even know the names of most local candidates so why would i bump any...
17:53:20 <oerjan> it may be only for local elections nowadays
17:53:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, I remember reading about some parties list being overturned by it in Sweden
17:53:48 <AnMaster> think it was in the last EU election
17:54:14 <AnMaster> someone from 8th place being bumped to first or second or such
17:54:21 <alise> using zeta function regularisation, ∑(n=1, ∞) n^2 = 0, but ∑(n=1, ∞) n = −1/12
17:54:26 <alise> which makes me wonder: wut.
17:54:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, even funnier, iirc we used to have "do not prefer" instead of "prefer" ages ago
17:54:56 <AnMaster> you could iirc check two you wanted to move down the list or some such
17:55:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: i vaguely recall something like that in norway
17:55:51 <oerjan> i vaguely suspect they removed that because it actually _had_ an effect, on people the parties didn't want it to affect
17:56:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: but we're so good at it :D
17:56:11 <alise> on *parties the *people
17:56:13 <alise> not the other way around :D
17:56:42 <oerjan> alise: definitely the way i said it
17:56:53 <AnMaster> yeah it doesn't make much sense reversed
17:57:11 <alise> AnMaster: what do you mean err?
17:57:20 <alise> oerjan: you sly man
17:57:39 <alise> he's being snarky.
17:57:59 <AnMaster> alise, no he just said your correction was incorrect.
17:58:07 <oerjan> even i get the occasional snark you know
17:58:21 <oerjan> i think it counts as snark
17:58:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw shouldn't down vote be a better system then? If it does have an effect. After all the elections should represent what people actually want
17:59:17 <alise> AnMaster: no because he was making a statement about party control duh
17:59:27 <AnMaster> but then it could allow some interesting tactical voting. Say, you prefer party A, but you definitely do not want the name from the top of the list in party B to get a seat. Thus you vote on party B but down-vote the first name on the list
17:59:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: no the thing is upvoting only shifts some unimportant people up, and important people a _little_ down. while downvoting can shift _important_ people out. from the view of the party leadership.
18:00:23 <oerjan> actually i vaguely recall for a while the parties could put some people _twice_ on the lists to counteract this.
18:00:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes quite, but the voters should be allowed to get the people they prefer in IMO, and not the ones which happens to run the party.
18:00:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh, that's quite an insane solution
18:01:03 <alise> basically zeta regularisation is stating that
18:01:05 <alise> −1/12 + −2/12 + −3/12 + −4/12 + ⋯ = 0
18:03:30 <AnMaster> alise, what does M.P. mean in English (context is voting system)
18:03:55 <alise> Member of Parliament
18:04:06 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh and another problem is that since _most_ people don't amend the voting lists, a tiny minority could mess up for candidates even if most people thought they were just fine. in theory even people sabotaging for _other_ parties...
18:04:17 <fizzie> "Military police" can also be a relevant word in the context of voting systems...
18:04:24 <oerjan> (with downvoting, especially)
18:04:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, okay that is indeed a valid concern.
18:04:59 <AnMaster> (unlike the one you first mentioned)
18:05:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually i see you mentioned the last point above
18:06:24 * oerjan writes too slowly to read everything else before he hits return
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18:07:58 <oerjan> fizzie: not in voting systems of countries we like to compare ourselves to ("land vi liker å sammenligne oss med", common norwegian political phrase)
18:08:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh that about voting for another party just to move someone down?
18:08:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is rather a special-case of what you said
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18:09:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw, why don't you read while you are writing?
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18:09:39 <oerjan> hm i don't have to watch the keys but i _do_ watch what i type
18:10:15 <oerjan> i have to keep my spelling errors down _somehow_, you know
18:10:26 <AnMaster> well okay, I need to glace at what I'm writing every few words
18:11:01 <oerjan> also my touch typing is not as perfect as it once was (dammit now i'm thinking about it it gets even harder. btw you are now breathing manually.)
18:11:07 <Mathnerd314> you just need an irc client that puts new messages really close to where you're typing
18:11:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, also, another thing, when you type can you see your hands moving on the keyboard? As in, not that you are looking at it, but seeing it in the "edge" of your vision?
18:11:50 <AnMaster> (I used to need that, so typing in the dark didn't work.)
18:11:54 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: oh it does. i just don't have that much concentration. or maybe i have too much, whatever.
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18:12:16 <AnMaster> (I can do that nowdays, except moving my hand back to the keyboard from the mouse)
18:12:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you need to see that to be able to type?
18:13:20 <oerjan> let me try to avoid it - ok i had troubles with the 'v', there
18:14:12 <oerjan> basically _most_ keys are automatic but not all, and my finger positioning is not stable enough
18:14:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, how did you avoid it? By placing something above the keyboard to hide it or such?
18:14:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: by looking a bit further up than usual. so i didn't really look at the text either, i guess.
18:15:11 <oerjan> basically i'm way out of training.
18:16:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah, and I would have to look way above the screen to do that. Best experiment is when it is dark. Oh and mostly black screen to reduce light from it. I suppose covering the keyboard would work too, but it might be tricky to find something suitable for that
18:16:41 * oerjan is now typing with eyes closed
18:16:49 <oerjan> wow not a single error :)
18:17:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, but again that doesn't really test "not seeing hands", it tests "not seeing hands, nor screen"
18:17:18 <alise> I can type with my eyes closed too, though I imagine my error rate will be quite high; actually it feels very uncomfortable.
18:17:24 <oerjan> although i had to look for the first /
18:17:28 <Mathnerd314> oerjan: next, change the keyboard layout and start over
18:17:31 * FireFly also test writing with closed eyes
18:17:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: so basically what i'm out of with touch typing is _confidence_
18:18:03 <AnMaster> well I can type with eyes closed too, but it is slomewhat slower, and more errors
18:18:56 <AnMaster> alise, also was that a sed expression?
18:18:58 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: no thanks
18:19:06 <alise> AnMaster: no, just a random IRC excpression
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18:19:28 <AnMaster> alise, ah good, because if it was sed you know that + is not "one or more" in sed. it is a literal +
18:19:40 <alise> it would have needed /g, too.
18:20:01 <oerjan> _clearly_ it was perl s///
18:20:02 <AnMaster> alise, I only saw one double-space?
18:20:27 <pikhq> As we all know, IRC has its own regular expression and replacement syntax.
18:20:36 <alise> AnMaster: x matches x+
18:20:45 <oerjan> pikhq: based on a dwim parser, presumably
18:21:01 <pikhq> It is a DWIM-family language.
18:21:09 <alise> AnMaster: and spaces came before the " "
18:21:45 <alise> yeah *x is actually sugar for s/\{DWIM}/x/{DWIM}
18:21:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, which is basically a mix of the most common constructs from the most common dialects
18:22:00 <alise> where \{DWIM} determines an appropriate pattern, and the flag {DWIM} determines appropriate flags.
18:22:15 <alise> yeah *x is actually sugar for s/\{DWIM}/\{DWIMeval(x)}/{DWIM}
18:22:18 <alise> because x can contain shorthand and such
18:22:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, for example I doubt negative lookbehind is very common in it
18:22:21 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: now that alise is back, the title is incorrect?
18:22:43 <alise> Were you guys panicing? Aww, how cute.
18:23:29 <AnMaster> Mathnerd314, it says "alise-alert" which is completely accurate, he is here, there is thus a red alert ;P
18:23:55 -!- pikhq has set topic: I love Unicode in my topics. | 僕が問題にユニコードが好きだ。 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:24:13 * oerjan gives up on actually reading the logs today
18:24:35 <pikhq> pineapple: ... Sorry.
18:24:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: Japanese.
18:24:46 <oerjan> because i've been on here for hours with them in another window, and haven't got beyond the first screen :)
18:24:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Which means it's 3 different scripts.
18:25:02 <oerjan> also, they are really long
18:25:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, where was that bit you replied to pineapple? As in, as far as I can tell pikhq haven't said anything for as many screens up as I checked (4)
18:25:46 <alise> <pikhq> pineapple: ... Sorry.
18:26:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: I had a massive thinko.
18:26:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
18:26:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, you tried to highlight yourself or something?
18:26:22 <pikhq> I was trying to highlight myself.
18:26:42 <pikhq> I'm going to drink more coffee.
18:27:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, you already forgot why coffee? ;P
18:27:21 <AnMaster> (sorry, that wasn't fair, it was actually same second for both on this side)
18:27:40 <AnMaster> (and mine was just before yours, but I realised it could be unclear on the other end)
18:27:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, but yeah I meant why self-highlight
18:28:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: I haven't a clue.
18:28:10 <pikhq> SED, MI SXATAS LA KAFON.
18:28:59 <pikhq> デモ、 ボク ガ コヒー ガ スキ ダ。
18:29:38 <pikhq> ... boku ga kohii ga? That's... Wrong.
18:30:01 <pikhq> デモ、 ボク ハ コヒー ガ スキ ダ。
18:38:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has set topic: I love Unicode in my topics. | 僕が問題にユニコードが好きだ。 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:42:09 <pikhq> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Josiah Dammit, why has my name become popular? :P
18:44:32 <pikhq> Yes, King Josiah was indeed in the Bible.
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18:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> My life feels empty and without meaning. Any suggestions on interesting things to do?
18:47:01 <Mathnerd314> curses, you just made me feel the same way
18:47:37 <Mathnerd314> I have a spare copy which I (probably?) could send you
18:47:51 <alise> that's just as illegal
18:48:44 <alise> welcome to copyright law
18:49:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no it is not of course
18:49:07 <AnMaster> alise, well, you could give away your own copy couldn't you? Assuming you didn't keep it as well
18:49:15 <alise> sharing copyrighted software is illegal. End of.
18:49:25 <alise> this is the very basis of copyrigth law.
18:49:56 <alise> you are really naive
18:50:05 <alise> ok, let me be more formal
18:50:15 <AnMaster> alise, so does this apply to art too?
18:50:40 <AnMaster> alise, so you cant sell paintings on your walls?
18:50:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And if he has a CD with Mathematica on it, which he hasn't installed, it is illegal for him to give it to me?
18:50:41 <alise> Providing anyone with a copy of copyrighted material without the express permission of the copyright holder or someone authorised to give permission on their behalf, is illegal.
18:50:53 <alise> AnMaster: that isn't how physical property works
18:50:59 <AnMaster> alise, well that is what you saifd
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18:51:07 <alise> I am talking about abstract entities only.
18:51:15 <AnMaster> alise, if you no longer have a copy it is the same as selling a painting
18:51:22 <AnMaster> if you kept it as well, that would be different
18:51:44 <alise> Digital information does not work that way and when you get fucked for copyright infringement don't come whining to me
18:51:51 <alise> Yes copyright law makes no fucking sense
18:51:52 <AnMaster> alise, so what about cds with game on them
18:52:00 <AnMaster> selling that cd would be legal or not?
18:52:14 <AnMaster> assuming you bought that cd before
18:52:17 <alise> AnMaster: Physical.
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18:52:34 <alise> It's not surprising that AnMaster is being an idiot but I didn't expect others to be so naive.
18:52:39 <AnMaster> alise, this makes no sense, if you erase your copy you no longer have it
18:52:54 <alise> YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND COPYRIGHT LAW.
18:53:09 <alise> AnMaster: Of course it fucking doesn't
18:53:16 <alise> It's applying artificial scarcity to unscarce bits
18:53:20 <alise> THAT DOES NOT MAKE ANY FUCKING SENSE
18:53:22 <AnMaster> alise, are you sure you didn't just misunderstand it?
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18:53:25 <alise> and that is WHY copyright law is PATHOLOGICAL
18:53:30 <alise> AnMaster: I am 100% certain that I am right.
18:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Indeed. You have already started asserting your superiority over all who are sceptical of your point.
18:54:52 <alise> because this is basic copyright law
18:58:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: The whole *point* of copyright is to make some non-scarce things more scarce.
18:59:41 <Mathnerd314> ok - I have a wolfram (student) download/license, unactivated, unused, etc.
18:59:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It's obviously illegal to start selling photocopies of Harry Potter.
19:00:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The debate is over what you can do with your own copy.
19:00:08 <pikhq> alise: BTW, in the US and probably also the UK, it would be perfectly legal for someone to give you a no-longer installed copy of a program.
19:00:13 <pikhq> First sale doctrine.
19:00:24 <alise> pikhq: Mm, but copyright law muddles that immensely.
19:00:31 <alise> "Your copy" almost entirely loses meaning.
19:00:43 <alise> Which one of your copies? The one in memory, on disk? What Colour does it have? What? Who? Where--
19:01:20 <pikhq> alise: First sale doctrine has been stated to override copyright law. You must not *retain* copies of the item, but you are still free to give it to someone else
19:01:34 <pikhq> This is completely asinine, yes, but that's beside the point.
19:01:48 <alise> Huh. ...Surely this has to be US-only.
19:01:53 <alise> The UK isn't /that/ crazy...
19:01:57 <alise> At least its insanity is consistent, surely.
19:02:19 <pikhq> This was ruled by a court, rather than being written in law.
19:02:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Regardless, it is UNACTIVATED.
19:02:48 <alise> That is, you would have to use a key generator to use it anyway.
19:02:58 <pikhq> (as the only way for first-sale doctrine as commonly known and copyright law as written to interact without one or the other being denied.)
19:03:00 <alise> So honestly... just pirate it.
19:03:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, so Mathnerd doesn't have the means to activate it himself?
19:05:21 <Mathnerd314> it goes something like website->download->enter code->activate
19:06:32 <Mathnerd314> oh, I have to register it after I download it
19:08:15 <alise> using the student version isn't legal if you're not a student
19:08:19 <alise> i thought at least /that/ would be obvious
19:08:25 <alise> obtaining the license key
19:08:43 <alise> read the fucking wolfram site, I don't know how they define it
19:08:49 <alise> if you DO meet the criteria you can get it legally yourself anyway
19:09:47 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: "Available to those working toward a high school, associate's, bachelor's, master's, doctoral, or equivalent degree"
19:10:20 <alise> ...so if you are doing that...
19:10:23 <alise> Just get a damn student license!
19:10:26 <alise> If you're not... it's illegal!
19:11:16 <pikhq> And if you don't care... Might as well pirate! Arrrr!
19:11:43 <alise> ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
19:11:51 <Mathnerd314> I now understand the logistics of pirating :p
19:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
19:14:28 <alise> ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
19:14:31 * alise rapes and pillages
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19:15:27 * Phantom_Hoover has come out of this even less certain of things than he was before.
19:16:18 <Phantom_Hoover> All I know is that copyright law is even stupider than I thought it was.
19:17:28 <Mathnerd314> alise: who exactly are you raping and pillaging? it seems hard to do over the internet :p
19:20:40 <alise> Mathnerd314: you don't want to know.
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19:34:06 <Mathnerd314> alise, Phantom_Hoover: suppose I did in fact know, because I convinced you to tell me. what arguments would my future self give my current self for why I wouldn't want to know what my future self knew?
19:34:17 <alise> Mathnerd314: stop trying to sound clever
19:34:36 <alise> and the answer, little man, is that you *don't* want to know the reasons
19:35:20 <Mathnerd314> I sincerely doubt my future self would say that
19:36:24 <Phantom_Hoover> If you did, you would beg your past self not to find out.
19:36:24 <alise> Mathnerd314: that is only because you are in denial.
19:36:41 <alise> It is don't-want-to-knows all the way down, Mathnerd314.
19:36:50 <SgeoN1> What did I miss? This sounds interesting.
19:37:41 <alise> SgeoN1: (it's just fluff)
19:38:07 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: but *how* would I beg my past self? what arguments would I use?
19:38:49 <alise> You *don't* want to know.
19:38:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You would be incapable of telling your past self, out of compassion.
19:40:32 <Mathnerd314> well, in similar situations, I've heard similar things, and know that I would be able to tell my past self something more substantial than that I am incapable of telling my past self anything
19:41:22 <alise> Mathnerd314: those things were not the Infinite Tower of Despair.
19:41:29 <alise> Only the Infinite Tower of Despair satisfies this infinite chain.
19:41:39 <alise> You don't want to know. All you could say: You don't want to konw.
19:41:44 <alise> The truth: You don't want to know.
19:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> You could, but you *don't* want to know what's in them.
19:43:18 <pineapple> how far back? i can't tell the signal to noise ratio
19:43:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Suffice to say that you neither want to know the Freenode network topology nor who alise is raping.
19:44:11 <alise> And being generally ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR towards.
19:44:19 <alise> pineapple: this is /all/ noise...
19:44:43 <Phantom_Hoover> But perhaps there is signal in it that you *don't* want to know/
19:45:18 <pikhq> The signal is hidden in the timestamps.
19:45:35 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: stop with the wanting already. I know what I want at this current moment, and I want to know
19:45:47 <alise> gah; internet is out
19:46:43 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: so... how does my future self convince me?
19:47:28 <Mathnerd314> so he says, "I beg you... don't want to know!"
19:49:30 <Phantom_Hoover> To be convincing, I would have to tell you things that you *don't* want to know.
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19:50:43 <Mathnerd314> the symptoms cannot be worse than the disease...
19:51:21 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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19:53:44 <alise_> i was on 3g stick before
19:54:52 <alise_> man this is the best connection i've ever had
19:54:53 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: not quite :P
19:55:23 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: so can I get physically harmed by knowing?
19:56:37 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: it's a yes or no question, with a very small amount of damage either way
19:56:51 <pineapple> Phantom_Hoover: you *don't* want to know what i'm going to do to you with a cucumber if you don't stop saying that...
19:59:42 <Mathnerd314> so therefore, as a logical being, I am immune to it.
20:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> If you really think you're a logical being, you've got something wrong.
20:01:43 <Mathnerd314> well, I've been reading a lot of http://www.lesswrong.com/. So I should be pretty logical by now
20:02:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Reading Less Wrong does not automagically make you logical.
20:02:55 <alise_> Mathnerd314: Hah, I knew you were reading Less Wrong.
20:03:01 <Mathnerd314> though of course there's no logical way to *prove* I'm logical
20:03:14 <alise_> Smart people there. Very smart. Effect on most people: verbose meanderings that just show someone trying to seem logical.
20:03:16 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: false.
20:03:58 <alise_> false, as in, what you said is false.
20:04:09 <alise_> humans are not ""innately"" illogical, we just have several built-in biases that make being logical more work.
20:04:41 <alise_> Mathnerd314: can I just recommend that you avoid talking authoritatively about rationality until you've developed it a bit more and got over the initial lesswrong rush?
20:04:46 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: but it is still possible to be logical.
20:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I strongly doubt that LessWrongers never act illogically.
20:08:35 <alise_> omg. mathematica is downloaded /already/
20:08:39 <alise_> this is like sex on wheels
20:09:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I would ask what on earth you meant, but I know what you'd say.
20:10:49 <Mathnerd314> apparently it has something to do with cars
20:10:52 <alise_> it is like sex, moved by a contraption of wheels
20:13:32 <alise_> Strange that nothing happens.
20:17:45 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: I just used torrentz.com, lazy as I am, and found http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4566766/WOLFRAM.RESEARCH.MATHEMATICA.V7.0.LINUX-EDGEISO
20:17:50 <alise_> which includes a keygen that works with wine
20:18:23 <Phantom_Hoover> And when The Government come to murder you in your sleep?
20:19:10 <Mathnerd314> well, wolfram hasn't started litigation yet
20:20:53 <Mathnerd314> and it's pretty hard to sue someone who's not actively downloading
20:21:07 <alise_> Huh; the GUI is rendering in Windows-y colours.
20:21:43 <Mathnerd314> yeah; the linux port is not that good, I hear
20:22:59 <alise_> But it isn't as laggy as last time, at least.
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20:26:10 <fizzie> You made me look, so; the upgrade from the student Mathematica to the retail Mathematica has a 75 % discount, which is not too shabby.
20:26:33 <fizzie> Of course the retail price *is* 3185 EUR, so it's still not exactly cheap.
20:26:49 <fizzie> (Or 3980 EUR for the Solaris version.)
20:27:42 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Wolfram's ego.
20:27:53 <fizzie> I don't know many people who have bought that; though I know of two that have bought the student license, which I think was something like 70 EUR.
20:28:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a *difference* between the student version and the standard one?
20:29:07 <fizzie> Uh, actually they seem to have bumped the student price up to 150 eur for Mathematica 7.0. (I last looked at it for 6.)
20:29:27 <fizzie> But it's still >3keur difference.
20:29:53 <fizzie> There's no functional difference. But you must stop using it when you graduate.
20:30:36 <fizzie> Hm, 128 EUR if you get the download version directly from Wolfram. 150 eur was our university's list price, but I think that includes a nifty installation disc.
20:30:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Wolfram Research must have found out about the thing that you *don't* want to know.
20:31:28 <SgeoN1> Maybe I should go into the den, where I have a working computer.
20:31:57 <SgeoN1> Rather than just using my phone in my room
20:32:56 <SgeoN1> Hm, what's the student price for Flash. If it's free, I just might get it.
20:33:01 <fizzie> It would be interesting to know their license revenues, though of course they won't tell you that.
20:33:50 <fizzie> I think Adobe's general student discount is about 80% off the retail price.
20:33:59 <fizzie> You could just use Flex or something, though.
20:34:40 <fizzie> "Save up to 80% off the full retail price* with Adobe Student and Teacher Editions — full commercial versions at low prices for students and now teachers, too."
20:34:42 <fizzie> "* Prices are subject to change without notice and are for qualified education customers only. Reseller prices may vary."
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20:39:46 -!- pgimeno has left (?).
20:40:30 <SgeoN1> This is the default privmsg message.
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20:53:28 * SgeoN1 heres some music that he associates with a game that he now knows to be a Bejeweled clone
20:59:55 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: also look at instructions.png (in diff. lang) in the keygen dir
20:59:58 <alise_> and use wine for the keygen
21:02:04 <SgeoN1> Ah, nice desktop computer with a weaker processor than my phone
21:02:54 <SgeoN1> arguably, I'm falling into the clockspeed=better trap, but it is an old computer
21:06:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:15:35 <alise_> In[16]:= Fibonacci'[n]
21:15:35 <alise_> Out[16]= (GoldenRatio Log[GoldenRatio] + Cos[n Pi] Log[GoldenRatio] +
21:15:36 <alise_> > Pi Sin[n Pi]) / (Sqrt[5] GoldenRatio )
21:15:39 <alise_> anyone know how to disable this wrapping?
21:16:12 <alise_> Perhaps it would be best for a Mathematica bot to use InputForm:
21:16:16 <alise_> In[2]:= InputForm[Fibonacci'[n]]
21:16:16 <alise_> (GoldenRatio^(2*n)*Log[GoldenRatio] + Cos[n*Pi]*Log[GoldenRatio] +
21:16:16 <alise_> Pi*Sin[n*Pi])/(Sqrt[5]*GoldenRatio^n)
21:17:36 <Sgeo> That's the MIDI playing on my phone right now, a Tetris midi
21:20:14 <alise_> In[1]:= Limit[Fibonacci[n+1]/Fibonacci[n], n->Infinity] // InputForm
21:20:14 <alise_> Limit::ztest1: Unable to decide whether numeric quantity
21:20:14 <alise_> -Log[2] + 2 Log[1 + Sqrt[5]] - Log[3 + Sqrt[5]]
21:20:14 <alise_> is equal to zero. Assuming it is.
21:20:14 <alise_> Out[1]//InputForm= (1 + Sqrt[5])/2
21:20:19 <alise_> Those error messages are way too verbose for IRC.
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21:29:34 <nooga> BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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21:49:07 <Sgeo> If I put out a huge collection of unlabelled MIDI files, how many people would help label them?
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22:04:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat).
22:04:39 <uorygl> Darn, I did that wrong.
22:04:56 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:05:02 <uorygl> I don't think Google will do Lojban.
22:05:11 <uorygl> "coi" means "hello" and "la" means "that-which-is-named".
22:06:05 <Sgeo> F My Connection
22:06:39 <uorygl> I chose this nick so that other people who know Lojban might know that I know Lojban.
22:06:50 <uorygl> Since it's a very Lojban name.
22:07:08 <uorygl> It's a transcription of the English word "warrigal".
22:07:43 <uorygl> I see that the Pirate Party has some opposition. In Finland, there has been started a Ninja Party.
22:09:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.2/20100316074819]).
22:16:48 <AnMaster> <pikhq> alise: BTW, in the US and probably also the UK, it would be perfectly legal for someone to give you a no-longer installed copy of a program. <-- that was what I was talking about all the time -_-
22:21:04 <uorygl> Wow, it appears that over half of all Finns know English.
22:22:14 -!- Oranjer has joined.
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22:22:44 <uorygl> Hola, Oranjer. ¿Cómo te va?
22:25:01 <uorygl> So, "How does it go for you?"
22:25:14 -!- augur has joined.
22:25:32 <Oranjer> shhh, stop speaking linguistics, it's augur
22:25:43 <uorygl> This isn't linguistics.
22:26:11 <uorygl> Puedo hablar de linguistics si lo quiero.
22:27:04 <uorygl> Vamos a ver, parece que se llama "lingüística" en español.
22:27:12 <uorygl> How difficult to type.
22:28:36 <uorygl> Aquí, tengo que teclear "l i n g opt-u u opt-e i s t i c a".
22:29:23 <uorygl> I guess my option key is pretty much the same as your compose key.
22:29:41 <uorygl> Except my option key makes slightly less sense. U is a diaeresis, E is an acute accent.
22:30:11 <coppro> I need to enable a compose key
22:30:31 <coppro> although, really, I already have to know two different ways to make characters
22:31:23 <uorygl> Pero es mejor que cuando mi tecla de opción era una tecla de meta y tenía que cambiar mi keyboard layout cada vez que quería teclar un special character.
22:32:16 <uorygl> `translate Pero es mejor que cuando mi tecla de opción era una tecla de meta y tenía que cambiar mi keyboard layout cada vez que quería teclar un special character.
22:32:18 <HackEgo> But it's better than when my option key was a key goal and had to change my keyboard layout whenever I wanted to click a special character.
22:32:40 <uorygl> `translate tecla de meta
22:32:55 <uorygl> `translate meta de tecla
22:33:14 <uorygl> Why does it think "tecla de meta" is "key goal" and not "goal key"?
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22:45:42 <nooga> it reminds me of high school
22:47:55 <coppro> Hmm... okay, I'm looking for a new language for my Agora reports; can anyone offer suggestions?
22:49:06 <coppro> I want something with good databasing powers, but isn't as obtuse as SQL
22:49:20 <coppro> and neither do I want to use SQL as the storage layer and something else as the processing layer
23:01:29 <alise_> coppro: well, it doesn't need to be a database. it will fit fine into a regular structure
23:01:42 <alise_> you might want something LINQish though
23:01:44 <pikhq> nooga: Probably just because you ended up "learning" it in high school.
23:02:00 <alise_> if I say Haskell you will probably maul me...
23:02:02 <pikhq> And, frankly, high school language classes tend to suck if you want to actually learn a language.
23:02:17 <alise_> it just makes me want to claw people's eyes out
23:02:18 <coppro> alise_: I considered it, but that means I have to set up all the key associations manually
23:02:32 <alise_> Just put the referenced object in directly.
23:02:37 <alise_> Then have every object keep track of its number.
23:02:46 <coppro> exactly, I don't want to have to do that
23:02:48 <alise_> Get out of the relational mindset.
23:02:58 <alise_> You have to specify what objects are contained in other objects...
23:03:00 <coppro> it's effectively relational though
23:03:24 <coppro> for instance, I can't store the player datastructure directly in the office datastructure
23:03:31 <coppro> because multiple offices may share a player
23:03:50 <coppro> I must store some identifying piece of information about that player (id or name) and then look that up in the set of players
23:04:02 <uorygl> alise_: do you have a particular reason for hating Spanish?
23:04:14 <coppro> I'd like this to be done transparently, e.g. pointers
23:04:20 <alise_> uorygl: everything said in Spanish sounds stupid
23:04:33 <alise_> just as everything in Latin, profound
23:04:47 <alise_> coppro: you don't need one global reference to a player
23:04:57 <uorygl> How about stuff in Lojban, or Finnish?
23:04:59 <alise_> what is wrong with having two identical "coppro" objects in two offices?
23:05:01 <alise_> you don't need pointers
23:05:12 <coppro> alise_: If one gets updated, the other isn't necessarily updated to match
23:05:14 <nooga> pikhq: that's righ
23:05:44 <alise_> coppro: Well, you have to specify what kind of update you mean. This is a functional language, after all.
23:05:52 <alise_> uorygl: I haven't heard much/any spoken Finnish.
23:06:36 <coppro> alise_: let's say I change my nickname
23:07:01 <coppro> I have to make sure both offices' copies of my data are changed appropriately
23:07:20 <pikhq> alise_: And everything written in Chinese on someone's flesh looks "cool".
23:07:53 <alise_> Have a function "modifyPerson" that traverses all the offices etc. and does the transformation e.g. if nick=="x", replace with f(that person) in the returned structure
23:08:12 <alise_> modifyPerson "coppro" (\x -> x{name="pooppy"})
23:08:15 <alise_> modifyPerson "coppro" (\x -> x{name="pooppy"}) game
23:08:19 <alise_> and get the revised game state back
23:08:27 <alise_> easy to think of things like changeNick as shorthands for these
23:08:35 <alise_> Sure, it's slightly less computationally efficient... but who gives a fuck
23:08:45 <pikhq> Even when it's something like "朝鮮民主主義人民和国！" (The Democratic People's Republic of Korea!)
23:08:57 <alise_> I mean, it lets you use the expressivity and good data structure support of Haskell, and avoid pointers, which suck in Haskell.
23:08:58 <uorygl> How come having two copies of everything is better than having pointers or something?
23:08:58 <coppro> any other suggestions from anyone present?
23:08:58 * pikhq wonders if anyone has ever gotten such a tattoo.
23:09:26 <alise_> uorygl: because you can do something like "name . officeHolder"
23:09:35 <alise_> "name . lookupPerson . officeHolder"
23:09:38 <uorygl> Well, not necessarily two.
23:09:42 <alise_> if the person can mutate
23:09:45 <alise_> it might even be in a gonad
23:09:49 <alise_> and then it gets even uglier
23:10:52 * Sgeo wonders what gonads have to do with what appears to be Haskell
23:11:09 <uorygl> Apparently slang for monads.
23:12:31 <coppro> no one else has any suggestions?
23:12:49 <nooga> uh, a function with side effects that is mathematicaly valid?
23:13:22 <alise_> stop even trying. learn haskell first, then monads
23:13:35 <alise_> do not attempt to come up with explanations of monads until you are sure that you have found one that is correct, because it is almost certainly incorrect
23:13:38 <nooga> one cannot learn haskell without knowing monads
23:13:46 <alise_> and that is simple fact
23:14:00 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: wrong again.
23:14:28 <uorygl> A monad is a pair of functions.
23:15:03 <alise_> No, a monad is fmap, join and unit!
23:15:04 <uorygl> Well, in Haskell, a monad is a type constructor.
23:15:39 <Sgeo> A monad.. I'm not going to say is, but say involves, ways to make data be part of the monad, and to combine a piece of monadized data with a function that returns monadized behavior
23:15:48 <nooga> lambda calculus is pretty straightforward
23:16:44 <uorygl> In Haskell-style-category-theory, a monad is a pair of functions. One takes any value and returns a value in the monad's codomain. The other takes a function taking any value, and returns a function taking a value in the monad's codomain.
23:17:18 <alise_> Haskell-style-category-theory is idiotic because it allows monads that are not functors.
23:17:20 <uorygl> For all a, a value of type "IO a" represents some I/O action that can be performed to yield a result of type a.
23:17:44 <Sgeo> alise_, does anyone actually write such monads?
23:17:55 <uorygl> IO is a monad, so you can use the first function I mentioned to construct a "nop", and the second function I mentioned to string actions together.
23:18:09 <Sgeo> Surely the functor stuff can be implemented in terms of monad functions?
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23:18:30 <uorygl> alise_, I think you have a knack for caring about things that don't matter and not caring about things that matter.
23:18:41 <alise_> That's a nice opinion; I will disregard it.
23:18:48 <uorygl> But perhaps I'm overestimating how objective my opinions are.
23:18:48 <alise_> (Is that not caring about something that matters, I wonder?)
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23:19:11 <alise_> Usually I care about absolute precision and accuracy, so, yeah... I fail at that a ton, though.
23:19:34 * Sgeo cares about fame much more than he cares about fortune
23:19:51 <alise_> Sgeo: Then you are crazy.
23:20:15 <Sgeo> Maybe more Torvalds-like fame rather than, say, celebrity-like fame
23:20:32 <uorygl> You have a tendency to assume your values are everyone's values. But then again, so does everyone.
23:21:10 <Sgeo> Also, I think I'd rather have "Sgeo" be famous than "Seth ...." be famous
23:21:46 <Sgeo> Although then I'd have to change some passwords probably.. some of them are a bit too guessable
23:21:58 <alise_> uorygl: No, I usually just blatantly disregard everyone else's values because they're wrong.
23:22:21 <alise_> Some time ago, I guess, I decided to not bother my thinking with those unneccessary steps where I consider what other people think about whatever I'm thinking about.
23:22:47 <uorygl> I think I'd rathest be known by only one name.
23:22:59 <uorygl> Unfortunately, I've fallen victim to the idea that one shouldn't divulge one's real name online.
23:23:07 <Sgeo> uorygl, too late
23:23:28 <uorygl> It seems I've successfully changed the nickname-I-use-everywhere once.
23:23:41 <Sgeo> My paranoia regarding that though is the reason my name isn't in the WSJ
23:23:48 <uorygl> It used to be ihope (which got disambiguated to "ihope127"); now it's Warrigal (which got disambiguated to "uorygl").
23:23:59 <uorygl> The Wall Street Journal?
23:24:15 <Sgeo> http://alnk.org/rabidpage
23:24:31 <Sgeo> I'm the "friend" of Mr. Parry
23:24:36 <Sgeo> Who you should know
23:25:41 <uorygl> So are you the other co-founder of the Creatures wiki?
23:25:59 <Sgeo> Well, kind of the founder, actually. GR just took over
23:26:07 <Sgeo> And I became a severely absintee founder
23:26:23 * uorygl shudders at the idea of some day being considered "a co-founder of Normish".
23:26:55 <uorygl> Interesting. I find myself hoping that Normish dies and is replaced by something else of my creation, rather than being revived by someone other than me.
23:27:23 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:27:24 <uorygl> That seems kind of cruel.
23:28:07 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Creatures_Wiki:Administrators
23:28:11 <uorygl> I also find myself hoping that somebody's wondering if some malicious part of me is reading my mind and saying unflattering things I would rather keep to myself. :P
23:29:27 <uorygl> Imagine if that had second-person pronouns instead of first-: "Interesting. I find you hoping that Normish dies and is replaced by something else of your creation, rather than being revived by someone other than you. That seems kind of cruel."
23:30:06 * Sgeo should link to creatureswiki.net and not wikia.com , really
23:32:35 <alise_> I wonder whether my NIH beget my don't-consider-other's-thoughts or vice versa.
23:33:23 <uorygl> Perhaps both simply come from a common source.
23:35:46 * Sgeo listens to La Espero
23:36:05 <Sgeo> Or at least, the melody
23:38:49 <alise_> it'd be nice if there was a calculator that was more CASy than graphingy
23:40:18 * pikhq has yet to change his nickname
23:40:54 * Sgeo has always been /me
23:41:02 <pikhq> Where N is a non-real complex number.
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23:41:59 <Sgeo> There's no more alise-alert in the topic, right?
23:42:32 <pikhq> You *can* look at the topic, you know.
23:42:44 <pikhq> Oh, wait. There's Japanese in there, too. :P
23:42:59 <pikhq> The Japanese is "I love Unicode in my topics."
23:43:33 * Sgeo was hoping that that line was a palindrome
23:44:18 <Sgeo> alise_, where'd you get Oegs from? I'm pretty sure I was Sgeo before I ever used Oegs on occasion, but my Oegs use was not switching to/from Sgei
23:44:35 <Sgeo> Actually, I've been Sgep here before, when I've forgotten Sgeo's password.
23:44:49 * alise_ 's brain's heuristics flag too late
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23:55:16 <alise_> Does anyone know of a name for the number [1; 2, 3, 4, 5, ...]?
23:55:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:55:47 <alise_> you're called dicks' constant.
23:56:05 <alise_> anyway it's irrational and not quadratic, obviously
23:56:22 <alise_> oerjan: you. [1; 2, 3, 4, 5, ...]. name it
23:56:28 <Sgeo> What does that syntax even mean?
23:56:41 <oerjan> are those continued fractions?
23:56:50 <oerjan> i recall e has something linear like that
23:57:50 <alise_> [a_0; a_1, a_2, a_3, ...] = a_0 + (1 / (a_1 + (1 / (a_2 + (1 / a_3 + ...
23:58:40 <oerjan> !haskell foldr1 (\x y -> x + 1/y) [1..50]