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00:43:59 -!- coppro has set topic: Je peux utiliser une langue étrangère aussi. | xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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00:58:07 <oerjan> i don't see why we should capitulate for french when we've already had japanese up there
00:58:47 <pikhq> It's just punycoded now.
01:00:17 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esperanto ankaŭ! | Je peux utiliser une langue étrangère aussi. | xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:02:05 -!- lament has set topic: Esperanto is still bannable! | Je peux utiliser une langue étrangère aussi. | xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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02:14:26 <zzo38> soupdragon: If you are thinking to make roguelike what one?
02:15:06 <soupdragon> I'm not actually going to make it anyway
02:15:49 <zzo38> soupdragon: OK. But have you played my two short roguelikes? (If you want to modify them afterward, that's OK, too)
02:16:16 <soupdragon> no, but is it possible for me to? I am on mac os
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02:18:03 <zzo38> soupdragon: They are both DOS programs, but you could try either using a DOS emulator or compiling them using FreeBASIC.
02:19:54 <zzo38> soupdragon: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/RL/KING.ZIP
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02:31:08 <zzo38> Do you like this game? Do you have question/comment?
02:33:03 <zzo38> Good. KING game tells you the controls (there are two ways, either using the letter keys or the numpad keys). By contrast, 100LEVEL game does not tell you the controls and does not tell you many other things, either, so you have to figure it out by trying different things.
02:37:01 <zzo38> Do you mean in the game?
02:38:29 <soupdragon> I got 4 out of 50 for 990 turns and died
02:41:22 <zzo38> Ah, well. These kind of games you will often lose early playing the first few times until you learn it better.
02:41:25 <zzo38> Did you try the other game?
02:41:47 <soupdragon> im playing KING again because that one was too difficult
02:43:10 <zzo38> I can, however, answer some of your questions about 100LEVEL game so that you may learn it better. (Hint: The easiest game is probably difficulty level "VERY EASY" and mode "TURNS")
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02:44:10 <zzo38> I am going to water the tomato for a minute, just wait
02:44:45 <oerjan> with anyone other than zzo38 i would have thought was a euphemism
02:44:56 <oerjan> then again, maybe it is
02:45:52 <oerjan> or maybe it is literal _and_ a euphemism. but we don't want to think about that.
02:46:01 <soupdragon> oh I am doing a lot betting at KING second time
02:47:11 <Gregor-L> http://sibeli.us/ GO PLAY A COMPETING GAME lawl
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02:54:19 <zzo38> oerjan: It is literally what I meant.
02:54:54 <zzo38> soupdragon: Yes you probably go get better the second time, this is what happens at this game.
02:55:00 * oerjan knows tomatoes need a lot of water
02:55:28 <soupdragon> zzo38 what about that sokoban style game you made? does that only run on windows
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02:59:06 <soupdragon> http://www.dosgamesarchive.com/images/screenshots/small/rogue1.gif that is scary
03:01:28 <zzo38> soupdragon: Which game do you mean?
03:01:43 <soupdragon> I think it is the most recent one you've written
03:02:14 <zzo38> This one? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png
03:02:41 <zzo38> Windows only, although if you can figure out how to make the .GMD compile for other operating systems, you can try.
03:02:58 <zzo38> Later on I might also write that game (or something similar) using C and SDL, possibly.
03:03:36 <zzo38> I do have other games that will run on DOS, however. I also have some that are cross-platform (so they should run natively on Mac OS X)
03:04:55 <zzo38> For example, I have written some MegaZeux games. MegaZeux is available for many operating systems (including Nintendo DS, even).
03:08:54 <zzo38> Part I of the "Super ASCII MZX Town" series is available at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP You will need MegaZeux to run it. You can get it from the official site at http://vault.digitalmzx.net/show.php?id=1676 or you can compile my modified version from http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/
03:09:12 <zzo38> My version has a lot of improvements, however Part I does not require it. Part II, however, does require to use my forked version of MegaZeux.
03:09:28 <zzo38> But Part II is not finished being written yet anyways.
03:10:07 <zzo38> You can even make your own games with MegaZeux, if you want to.
03:11:36 <Sgeo> Oh, alise left? :(
03:11:46 <zzo38> soupdragon: It runs natively on Mac OS X.
03:12:29 <zzo38> It also runs natively on many other operating systems as well.
03:12:57 <pikhq> It is freaking hard finding a good CJK font.
03:13:32 <zzo38> pikhq: What format of fonts are you looking for?
03:14:35 <zzo38> If you have Windows, Arial Unicode MS might do. (Or, if you need Japanese only, MS Gothic will do.)
03:14:40 <pikhq> I have gotten a decent Japanese font, but it freaking sucks for any Chinese that's not in use in Japanese. Which comes up a lot in my English Wikipedia browsing, and it's freaking jarring.
03:14:51 <pikhq> MS Gothic? MURDER.
03:14:58 <pikhq> That. Font. Sucks. Giant. Donkey. Cock.
03:15:13 <Gregor-L> Don't go impuning people who suck giant donkey cock.
03:15:17 <zzo38> pikhq: You are right about that. It does not work well for Chinese (it works only a little bit)
03:15:19 <pikhq> Gregor-L: It's not even antialiased.
03:15:22 <coppro> The word 'Giant' was completely unecessary
03:15:29 <zzo38> MS Mincho is another one if you prefer that style.
03:15:32 <pikhq> zzo38: It sucks for Japanese.
03:15:35 <Gregor-L> As coppro can attest, all donkey cock is giant.
03:15:38 <pikhq> As does MS Mincho.
03:15:42 <zzo38> Yes, it does have some Japanese things missing too.
03:15:54 <pikhq> I'm currently using TakaoMincho and TakaoGothic.
03:15:55 <zzo38> But it seems to work for most Japanese things!
03:16:14 <pikhq> For Japanese, *exceptionally*.
03:17:10 <pikhq> For Chinese, I'm trying to find something for this thing to fall back on that doesn't end up having more antialiasing artifacts than actual text.
03:19:54 <pikhq> Available in both Mincho *and* Gothic. Well, it's Chinese, so Ming and heiti.
03:20:51 <Gregor-L> Here's my solution: SPEAK AMERICAN
03:21:00 <pikhq> Currently, god knows why, this ends up using (and I am not making this up), a regular script font. *shudder*
03:22:13 <pikhq> Gregor-L: OK, then. 私 shall 話 米語, but 私 wo無 使 normal 正書y.
03:23:13 <Gregor-L> "but no use I wo positive normal form y" *brain axplote*. You put in only the untranslatable grammatical words from Japanese. Impressive.
03:24:28 <pikhq> I could've put more in, but I've not bothered learning the Chinese equivalents for grammatical words.
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03:24:39 <trap15> oh shit, awesome channel is awesome
03:24:58 <Gregor-L> Believe it or not, that's the most on-topic thing that's been said in this channel in months.
03:25:00 <pikhq> Gregor-L: BTW, "OK, then. I shall speak American, but I won't use normal orthography."
03:25:52 -!- Gregor-L has set topic: Howsabout we put "esoteric programming languages" SOMEWHERE in the topic? | Esperanto is still bannable! | Je peux utiliser une langue trangre aussi. | xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:27:52 <Sgeo> Cxu vi parolas Esperanton?
03:31:16 * Sgeo forgot what the -igxi suffix means
03:31:20 <pikhq> CJK fonts seem to be obsessed with having awful bitmap versions for small font sizes...
03:31:51 <pikhq> It really doesn't help.
03:34:15 * Gregor-L forgot why anybody would speak Esper-LAMO HAW HAW I'M TWELVE
03:34:52 <lament> esperanto is great, IF YOU WANNA GET BANNED
03:34:58 <trap15> esoteric programming languages > esoteric spoken languages
03:35:41 <Sgeo> Why is Esperanto bad?
03:36:15 <lament> because of the consequences of speaking it
03:36:51 <zzo38> pikhq: Sometimes it is hard to draw kanji in small size, but kana should not be difficult to draw in small size
03:38:24 <Sgeo> Mi malbone parolas Esperanton.
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03:39:05 <Sgeo> Esperanton parolas malbone mi.
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03:40:17 <pikhq> "WenQuanYi Zen Hei" is both sans-serif and not crap.
03:52:19 <Gregor-L> Sans-serif? What does it even mean for a Chinese font to have serifs??? *brain axplote*
03:54:17 <pikhq> Gregor-L: That's called a "mincho" font.
03:54:44 <Gregor-L> Well thank you, that relabeling has answered ALL of my, err, question.
03:55:16 <pikhq> I'll find a picture.
03:55:42 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Chinese_fonts_juhuasample_type.PNG
03:56:04 <pikhq> Serif, sans-serif, regular script.
03:56:05 <pikhq> (from top to bottom)
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05:34:31 * pikhq gets very annoyed when seeing an unsupported glyph
05:34:47 <pikhq> Thus, I now have a hieroglyphs font.
05:35:01 <pikhq> Even though I am not likely to ever write Egyptian.
05:35:16 <coppro> it's a bad fallback font, but at least it exists
05:35:31 <pikhq> Unifont doesn't support everything.
05:35:48 <pikhq> Oh, sure, it supports the BMP, but there's much outside of the BMP.
05:35:52 <pikhq> For instance, Unifont has no support for Klingon.
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06:03:43 <coppro> if anyone ever has the guts to undertake a massive restructuring of the internet, it should be called The Inter2bes Project
06:04:18 <Sgeo> HELP ME, I'M ADDICTED TO D.ANDROID.COM
06:04:56 <coppro> switch to your browser
06:05:02 <coppro> then uninstall your browser
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06:07:34 <coppro> I should really be doing homework right now...
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16:28:27 <Phantom_Hoover> My computer has very possibly /the/ stupidest button ever.
16:28:53 <Phantom_Hoover> When pressed, it stops the touchpad working, as far as I can tell at the hardware level.
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18:05:46 <pikhq> My *god* fonts look better with proper hinting.
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18:06:13 <pikhq> ("proper" meaning "mmm, patent violating BCI hinting, rather than the autohinter")
18:13:42 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> My computer has very possibly /the/ stupidest button ever. <-- very useful
18:14:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, for example you may want to avoid touching it by mistake while typing
18:14:28 <AnMaster> and if you like me prefer the trackpoint...
18:15:24 <AnMaster> ...then it would be very useful if only lenovo didn't make it also disable the buttons for clicking with trackpoint (between keyboard and touchpad, there are additional touchpad buttons below the touchpad)
18:15:35 <AnMaster> the trackpoint itself works still
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19:00:45 <Phantom_Hoover> What is the algorithm for evaluation in the lambda calculus?
19:01:21 <pikhq> Which lambda calculus?
19:02:26 <soupdragon> what do you even mean? just beta reduce in a while loop
19:02:45 <pikhq> Should just be beta-reduction, yeah.
19:03:42 <pikhq> While !some-exit-condition?
19:07:09 <pikhq> While *doesn't* contain free vars?
19:07:21 <pikhq> Why, that's the exact opposite of what you want!
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19:08:12 <pikhq> Apparently he's not going to.
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20:46:47 <AnMaster> hm, writing up faux wikipedia entries (not posting them on wikipedia of course) for various typos on IRC can be quite fun.
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21:04:22 <pikhq> Why is it so damned hard to set up font substitution rules?
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21:11:06 * pikhq would *especially* love to be able to find out what font is being used to display a particular glyph. Why is this so hard?
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23:01:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there are several rules for how and how long to evaluate lambda calculus expressions, dependent on how you want.
23:02:37 <oerjan> beta-reduction as pikhq mentioned is one of the reductions, there is also eta-reduction which is sometimes useful. these are about _how_ to reduce a subterm.
23:03:57 <oerjan> however then there is the question of strict or lazy reduction, whether aim for a full normal, or just a head-normal form.
23:05:56 <oerjan> with head-normal and lazy reduction you never reduce b in a b alone, you just reduce a first and _if_ that results in a \var -> something, then you use beta on the whole
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23:06:29 <oerjan> with fully normal reduction, once a has been reduced you continue reducing b if they don't apply
23:06:44 <oerjan> *if beta reduction doesn't apply
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23:07:59 <oerjan> oh and there's something about weakly or strongly too, i think that is about whether to reduce _inside_ \x -> ...
23:08:53 <oerjan> goddammit google, couldn't you drop some of that new fancy stuff and be _quicker_ instead
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23:09:48 <oerjan> haskell's lazy reduction is to weak head normal form - basically it only reduces a and never inside \x -> ...
23:11:12 <oerjan> with _strict_ reduction you reduce b _before_ trying beta-reduction on a b, with lazy reduction you try beta reduction first (and reducing b probably never)
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23:14:51 <oerjan> ML's (ocaml or SML) reduction is strict
23:15:54 <oerjan> (for the lambda calculus parts)
23:16:51 <oerjan> and it has been remarked that haskell's seq operator makes eta reduction inconsistent with the language
23:17:16 <oerjan> because you can distinguish \x -> undefined from undefined with (\x -> undefined) `seq` whatever
23:18:13 <oerjan> !haskell (\x -> undefined) `seq` True
23:18:30 <oerjan> !haskell undefined `seq` True
23:18:31 <EgoBot> *** Exception: Prelude.undefined
23:18:56 <pikhq> seq makes Haskell have side effects. Evil, no?
23:19:09 <oerjan> that's not strictly a side effect
23:19:38 <oerjan> it's just breaking eta reduction, beta reduction still holds
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23:23:21 <oerjan> with _strong_ normal form you keep reducing everything until all subterms are reduced
23:24:37 <oerjan> even if that form exists, you may still have to be careful about the order you reduce in, so that it terminates. taking the leftmost option is always safest.
23:24:49 <oerjan> but not necessarily most efficient.
23:25:31 <oerjan> always leftmost option ~= lazy
23:26:39 <oerjan> things like fixpoint operators tend not to have strong normal forms, iirc
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23:29:27 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> while !contains-free-vars
23:29:42 <oerjan> also that's not a good condition, _truly_ free vars cannot be removed
23:30:03 <oerjan> while !contains-redexes is what you want for strong normal form
23:30:32 <oerjan> (a redex being anything of the form ((\x -> A) B)
23:30:58 * oerjan hopes Phantom_Hoover logreads
23:32:44 <oerjan> (if you use eta reduction too, then presumably \x -> A x where x not in A is also a redex
23:33:12 <oerjan> redex is short for reducible expression
23:34:13 * soupdragon is still waiting for Phantom_Hoover to answer the question "Do you know what beta reduction is"
23:34:33 <soupdragon> once he does, he will know what a beta redex is - and what the condition for the while loop should be
23:34:44 <oerjan> and we're of course ignoring alpha reduction entirely
23:41:52 <oerjan> <AnMaster> hm, writing up faux wikipedia entries (not posting them on wikipedia of course) for various typos on IRC can be quite fun.
23:41:59 <oerjan> there's always uncyclopedia.
23:46:11 <oerjan> well, unless you believe http://everything2.com/title/Uncyclopedia
23:47:39 <oerjan> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Unicycle-riding_bears
23:49:37 <oerjan> oh wait, uncyclopedia agrees.
23:49:48 <oerjan> google just censored it.
23:49:57 <oerjan> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Uncyclopedia:About
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