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00:26:37 <uorygl> `translate suden kesy jalostettu muoto
00:26:39 <HackEgo> processed form of the domesticated wolf
00:26:59 <uorygl> That's actually a much better translation than what I got last time.
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00:27:55 <uorygl> So, "suden" is the genitive of "susi"? Or is it the accusative?
00:28:18 <uorygl> If "kesy" and "suden" have to match case, then I guess it has to be the accusative.
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00:29:21 <uorygl> "Muoto" is just the accusative, of course. How does "jalostettu" come about? What's that word made of?
00:32:41 <Sgeo> <3 Humble Indie Bundle
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00:45:21 <augur> uorygl: how's HackEgo doing the translating there?
00:46:37 <uorygl> Using Google Translate.
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02:03:00 <Gregor-L_> soupdragon: THAT IS NOT THE CORRECT WAY TO MAKE SOUP
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02:12:36 <uorygl> Gregor-L_: there are a lot of events after which you could say that.
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02:13:23 <uorygl> Hey, your L got flipped about a 45-degree line and scaled up by a factor of sqrt(2). How did you do that?
02:13:35 <pikhq> Gregor-L_: Well, you see, first you stick the dragon in the soup. Then, you put stuff in it. Then, you take out the dragon.
02:13:49 <pikhq> uorygl: UNDERSCORE
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02:14:29 <pikhq> alise is all the voices in your head.
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02:17:58 <maedhros777> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Polynomial
02:18:53 <maedhros777> Pardon all the zeroes, I wrote a program to generate trinomials from zeroes and it's not very good yet
02:21:56 <maedhros777> I tried putting it into Wolfram Alpha to get the final result and it didn't have enough space for all the numbers in the search box :)
02:22:48 <maedhros777> I'm not sure how I'm going to trim down these coefficients
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02:23:26 <maedhros777> Because the final coefficients probably overflow all data types in C.
02:23:58 <maedhros777> How will I get the final polynomial of the hello world, though?
02:24:26 <maedhros777> Actually, more like a month, or several years =D
02:24:59 <pikhq> ... Yes, this is why computers exist.
02:25:47 <pikhq> HORRORS UPON HORRORS AWAIT YOU
02:26:07 <pikhq> Language isn't terrible.
02:26:24 <pikhq> The runtime is such a massive bitch to get running.
02:26:28 <maedhros777> I've heard it doesn't have much support, though
02:26:48 <pikhq> It does have two standard libraries, though.
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02:28:13 <pikhq> The secret is to not fork the language.
02:29:50 <zzo38> The way I like is a variations of C like this:
02:30:23 <zzo38> x=strlen(y); --> y strlen;x!
02:30:43 <zzo38> And ; is function call operator
02:31:13 <zzo38> What is "tHE WIZARD"?
02:31:24 <soupdragon> zzo38 hypothetical langage design wizard
02:31:33 <soupdragon> it's a parody of trendy things like ruby and python and such
02:31:41 <soupdragon> basically you get a bunch of check boxes and radio buttons
02:31:50 <soupdragon> and you choose things like syntax, evaluation order, .. etc
02:31:55 <maedhros777> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/84556/whats-your-favorite-programmer-cartoon
02:31:56 <soupdragon> and it prints out an interpreter for the language
02:32:30 <maedhros777> I like the one with the kid's name being a MySQL injection
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02:33:02 <zzo38> int main(int argc,char**argv){puts("Hello, world!\n");} --> :main(int'argc' char**'argv'--int){"Hello, world!\n"puts;0}
02:33:06 <maedhros777> Notice that the top one doesn't even print newlines :)
02:33:34 <zzo38> Do you have any URL or examples of wizard?
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02:35:15 <uorygl> soupdragon: I want to make that!
02:35:33 <zzo38> I invented another problem on anarchy golf
02:35:37 <uorygl> Or, at least, to have that.
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02:36:17 <soupdragon> zzo38 - I had written a wiki page about it, but I deleted my wiki
02:36:32 <zzo38> maedhros777: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Count+asterisks+
02:36:43 <soupdragon> if anyone likes this idea I would love improvements
02:36:59 <soupdragon> I tried to explain it to ehird but he just ignored me
02:37:22 <zzo38> soupdragon: Without seeing it how can I send improvement?
02:37:35 <soupdragon> zzo38 well the idea is all that exists
02:38:09 <zzo38> maedhros777: The anarchy golf is a site for codegolf, try to write a short program for the given input/output, there is many program language choices
02:38:47 <maedhros777> Oh, so the challenge is to write a program that outputs the number of asterisks?
02:38:50 <zzo38> I didn't invent that site, but I did post some of the problems
02:39:34 <zzo38> maedhros777: Yes, that's it. However, any program that complies with the example input/output is OK, even if it doesn't count the number of asterisks. (If your program is cheating, you can write "(cheat)" after your name)
02:39:45 <zzo38> The ranking is, 10000 for the shortest program
02:39:54 <zzo38> I mean, that's how the "score" is
02:40:01 <zzo38> The "rank" column is 1 for the shortest program
02:40:24 <zzo38> The "size" tells how many bytes in the program
02:40:32 <maedhros777> So people compete for shortest program, lowest time, etc?
02:40:47 <zzo38> The "statistics" column is binary/alnum/symbol
02:41:04 <zzo38> The time is mostly not used. You compete for the shortest program.
02:41:12 <zzo38> The time is available just in case you are interested
02:41:37 <zzo38> You can try it. Push "use form" and then you can select the program langage you want, and enter your name in "Your name" field.
02:42:16 <zzo38> If it is a binary file you can just upload the file
02:42:27 <maedhros777> How can it be known if a program would work or not?
02:42:50 <zzo38> The site does have its own compilers on the execution server
02:42:56 <zzo38> So it will tell you if it is success or not
02:43:08 <Gregor-L> (This should all be in a Hackiki :P )
02:43:21 <maedhros777> Has anyone ever made the smallest program for a problem in brainfuck?
02:44:09 <soupdragon> once I generated brainfuck programs by size and searched for ones that printed text
02:44:12 <maedhros777> In the statistics, is size measured in bytes?
02:44:17 <soupdragon> but I didn't actually find any interesting text....
02:44:30 <zzo38> You can also just make the shortest program in each individual category, and if you post for more than one program language you can have multiple scores
02:44:36 <zzo38> Yes, it is measured in bytes
02:44:53 <maedhros777> So someone made a solution in Flogscript with 2 bytes??!!!
02:44:57 <zzo38> Some of the formats are binary formats.
02:45:39 <zzo38> It still might be a cheat.
02:45:52 <zzo38> Sometimes the authors did not put "(cheat)" after their name
02:45:58 <zzo38> You can view the programs at post-mortem time.
02:46:03 <zzo38> 13day(s) and 23:27:55 before deadline (05/29 10:03:09 JST), all source codes will be revealed after the deadline
02:46:14 <zzo38> So that means, in 2 weeks you will be able to view the programs.
02:46:35 <zzo38> (You can still post programs after the deadline, but the date will be red in that case)
02:47:49 <zzo38> Even for ones that are cheats, you can try to figure out how to cheat in that problem! But you can do both cheat and genuine solution. I like to post both cheating and genuine solutions to problems, some other people also like to do so
02:48:07 <maedhros777> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Palindromic+prime
02:49:24 <zzo38> See the example output, that's how many are needed
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02:51:07 <maedhros777> I'm looking at some finished ones, and the smallest code is ugly :)
02:51:18 <maedhros777> But I guess that's necessary to make a small program
02:52:26 <zzo38> Also, a few other hints: "exec is denied" does not apply to shell scripts. The source file name is always "test." and the extension. In interpreted languages, usually the source file will be the only file in the current directory.
02:53:20 <maedhros777> I think I'm going to die: main() without return type or arguments :) http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?char+pyramid/nn_1271263335&cpp
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02:53:46 <coppro> maedhros777: no arguments is fine... no type is not
02:54:21 <zzo38> C does not actually require the type, the type is assumed "int"
02:54:27 <zzo38> (If you use the correct compiler parameters)
02:55:50 <Gregor-L> public static void main(String[] args)
02:55:57 <maedhros777> For the asterisk problem, how is the input generated? i.e. is it with newlines?
02:56:12 <maedhros777> Oh yeah, Java doesn't even return an int :)
02:56:26 <zzo38> What do you mean, how is the input generated?
02:56:34 <gm|lap> i think there's a System.exit or something
02:56:37 <zzo38> Each input is run through the program a separate time.
02:56:50 <zzo38> There are newlines if that is how it is shown
02:57:09 <zzo38> So at the end of each line there will be a newline character.
02:58:47 <zzo38> Yes, it will be EOF when the end is reached
03:00:08 <zzo38> These are also my problems: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Half+Sierpinski http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Half+Sierpinski
03:00:15 <zzo38> Although I like the other problems too
03:00:50 <maedhros777> What do you think is the function with the least character that reads from standard input?
03:01:15 <zzo38> Probably. I don't know for sure but I think so
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03:03:08 <zzo38> I won "PrinterOriented Banner" problem even though I did not create that problem
03:04:14 <Gregor-L> So I improved JSMIPS' speed today.
03:04:30 <gm|lap> OHHHH that's what vi is for
03:04:56 <zzo38> What do you mean, what's wat vi is for?
03:06:03 <zzo38> Yes, but I still don't understand your comment
03:06:14 <zzo38> Are you refering to any specific problem?
03:06:45 <gm|lap> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Interpret+Perl+Code <-- the bash ones are kinda obvious
03:06:56 <zzo38> Yes, it certainly is
03:07:00 <gm|lap> same deal with zsh + fish
03:07:09 <zzo38> Yes, is same zsh and fish even
03:07:16 <gm|lap> not a z80 entry in sight :/
03:07:50 <zzo38> Write one if you want to
03:10:30 <zzo38> Sometimes I write a bit strange solution for "Network mask v2" http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Network+mask+v2/zzo38%28file%2Cpostmortem%29_1273244351&zsh
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03:11:44 <zzo38> How many problems have you gotten best score?
03:12:48 <zzo38> I think they need to add a input-fix mode (I have written the patch already)
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03:21:43 <zzo38> The "Count asterisks" is difficult to make with dc, because if the input difficult, but I still managed to do it. (But this program does not actually count all of the asterisks)
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05:23:29 <zzo38> I didn't explode yet
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05:31:23 <zzo38> I have not yet exploded.
05:32:36 * pikhq wants his damned HTTP access back
05:33:27 <zzo38> Are you out of HTTP access?
05:34:03 <zzo38> But why? What happened? What is going wrong?
05:34:27 <pikhq> I can access IRC and Gopher.
05:34:33 <pikhq> Why? Because my ISP sucks.
05:35:14 <pikhq> Oh, look. It's back. It was out for a few hours, but it's back.
05:35:26 <pikhq> Just like last night.
05:35:36 <pikhq> Fucking hell I hate this.
05:38:43 <zzo38> Does FTP and SMTP and POP3 work?
05:38:52 <pikhq> No, no, and no, respectively.
05:38:54 <zzo38> And why does HTTP stop working even though IRC and Gopher continues to work?
05:39:06 <pikhq> Because fuck you, we have a monopoly.
05:39:35 <pikhq> Near as we could conclude last night, I was having an 88% packet loss rate, and IRC was only barely able to work during that.
05:40:08 <zzo38> At least a lot of my text files are accessible using Gopher protocol!
05:45:34 <zzo38> When my internet stops, *all* protocols stop working.
05:53:29 <pikhq> It's almost like they go "What, you were expecting service? Sorry, we're just going to take your money. Much more profitable."
05:58:06 <pikhq> I'd have freaking better Internet access if I went to the Northern Territories of Canada.
05:58:22 <pikhq> THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE ROADS
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06:20:35 <zzo38> I noticed the GNU FDL contains something which seems to be in there specifically so that when Wikipedia relicensed all of their files, it would not be a violation of this license.
06:21:59 <pikhq> Yes, that clause was put in at the behest of the Wikimedia Foundation.
06:22:15 <pikhq> As, frankly, the FDL was a terrible choice of license for Wikipedia.
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06:23:52 <ais523> pikhq: well, at the time, there weren't many licenses around
06:24:05 <ais523> I think they picked FDL because it existed, which was a strong benefit over many of the other licenses people have suggested
06:24:14 <ais523> although it's pretty much its only advantage
06:24:29 <ais523> GFDL is good for some things; I used it for the C-INTERCAL manual
06:24:37 <ais523> it's pretty much designed for book-style manuals
06:24:56 <pikhq> It's decent for a manual.
06:25:06 <pikhq> It's *workable* for books.
06:25:25 <pikhq> I'm not entirely sure it's *possible* to follow it for a wiki.
06:27:20 <ais523> it is, but Wikipedia didn't
06:30:58 <zzo38> Do you like command-line version of DigitalMZX Vault?
06:31:00 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/bB8e9wNY
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06:34:25 <zzo38> Is Adrian^L at 2600?
06:34:46 <zzo38> Actually, phalse.2600.COM and 2600.com resolve to the same IP address
06:35:13 <zzo38> Perhaps you faked it? Or is it proper?
06:38:33 <zzo38> The reverse DNS resolves to phalse.2600.COM however, it seems
06:53:12 <zzo38> I found a list of secret services codes
06:53:18 <zzo38> But I won't tell you right now
06:53:40 <oerjan> WELL THEY'RE SECRET, DUH
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07:07:55 <zzo38> Can you become a threat to society by taking pictures of Secret Service agents in your own office?
07:09:47 <zzo38> I do not see Obama on the list of secret codenames.
07:09:56 <zzo38> Perhaps because it is secret!
07:10:06 <ais523> the sort of people who think of doing that are possibly threats to society for other reasons
07:11:29 <zzo38> I don't think that is necessarily the case at all.
07:11:45 <oerjan> VERY GOOD ANSWER, CITIZEN AIS523
07:11:52 <zzo38> Even then, you aren't necessarily deliberately taking pictures of Secret Service agents. It could be automatic due to security cameras and so on.
07:12:07 * oerjan ducks beneath the rock again
07:12:15 <ais523> is it comfortable down there?
07:12:19 <zzo38> The Secret Service might even be a threat to society too, there are reports about such things
07:12:40 <oerjan> well it's a bit cramped, but it does have internet access
07:13:43 <oerjan> THERE ARE NO SUCH REPORTS. ANYONE BELIEVING IN SUCH REPORTS IS A DANGER TO SOCIETY.
07:15:49 <pikhq> oerjan: Unlike me.
07:23:46 <zzo38> I am not finished writing a solitaire card program yet. But it is nearly completed.
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07:28:21 <oerjan> legalizing 42 drugs, that's the ticket
07:29:48 <oerjan> WHICHEVER ARE GOOD FOR SOCIETY
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11:00:05 <AnMaster> wait you didn't know VHDL did you? Only verilog
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12:22:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how large does the stack usually become in befunge93?
12:22:22 <AnMaster> I mean, would 2047 entries be enough for all "common" programs?
12:22:33 * AnMaster is thinking about befunge93 in VHDL
12:23:02 <AnMaster> dynamic size would be an extreme PITA
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12:44:22 <AnMaster> alise, two possible summer projects that I'm considering: befunge93 in VHDL, befunge93 on Lego Mindstorms
12:44:42 <alise> mindstorms is a fairly regular robotic platform from what i gather. and you can use C
12:44:48 <AnMaster> alise, the lego would be fun too, output would be a flashing lego led
12:44:48 <alise> each robot was a cell in fungespace
12:44:54 <alise> and they physically walked around
12:45:00 <alise> if that is the case, that * G_64
12:45:09 <alise> AnMaster: eh, 2-celled unefunge
12:45:46 <AnMaster> alise, but I was thinking of using a flashing LED to output the bits of console output
12:45:55 <alise> I'd go for VHDL, because it's so fucking alien
12:45:59 <alise> and it'd be the FASTEST. BEFUNGE-93. EVAR
12:46:38 <AnMaster> alise, except I don't own an FPGA to test it on, so it would be simulation only (but with the aim to make most synthesiable (sp?) in theory)
12:46:42 <alise> you could do sound with vhdl <3
12:46:45 <AnMaster> the exception would be file loading and console IO
12:46:52 <AnMaster> alise, I could do sound on RCX
12:47:08 <AnMaster> it has a built in speaker, but I think it is limited to some set of 8 or whatever different beeps
12:47:25 <AnMaster> alise, not sure about brickOS... but that needs a gcc 2.95.x cross compiler
12:47:32 <AnMaster> which I'm not sure I can even get working nowdays
12:48:20 <alise> http://www.flickr.com/photos/starsammy/4605760111/sizes/o/in/pool-16135094@N00/ ;; good lord, this is /not/ how recipies should look!
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12:51:58 <alise> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/dreamanatomy/images/1200%20dpi/IV-A-01.jpg
12:52:15 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/Xf057.jpg ;; translation
12:56:05 <AnMaster> <alise> http://www.flickr.com/photos/starsammy/4605760111/sizes/o/in/pool-16135094@N00/ ;; good lord, this is /not/ how recipies should look! <-- wonderful idea
12:56:19 <alise> Horrible idea; just horrible.
12:56:50 <AnMaster> alise, it makes gooking into engineering, easy to follow
12:56:50 <alise> Recipes are perfectly fine; obfuscating their clear prose with multi-directional diagrams that leave no obvious order in which cooking should be done and leave out vital details is ridiculous.
12:57:02 <alise> Recipes /are/ easy to follow.
12:57:07 <alise> And imagine that diagram for a complicated recipe.
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12:57:11 <AnMaster> alise, they need to be bullet lists then
12:57:16 <alise> It would start looking more like fungot's graph.
12:57:17 <fungot> alise: the diggers must have been enough to fnord and remote farmers who at some period of life appeared to have two sharers of his mysteries; a fnord portuguese fnord from the house and the ancient pain.
12:57:19 <AnMaster> alise, plus this allows concurrent cooking
12:57:23 <alise> English is scalable.
12:57:51 <AnMaster> alise, plus → is increasing time
12:57:59 <AnMaster> and some tasks are concurrent there
12:58:25 <AnMaster> I find those incredibly easy to follow
12:58:28 <alise> You sing its praises but have you actually taken it on yourself to think of - perhaps even read - the corresponding recipe before deciding that the flowchart is superior?
12:58:41 <alise> And now consider a more complicated diagram, and its corresponding recipe. Iterate until you're convinced.
12:59:14 <alise> Um, get out your nearest recipe book.
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12:59:45 <AnMaster> alise, but there may be different variants of the same recipe?
12:59:48 <alise> Admittedly amateur-written recipes might not be of such good quality, and professional ones may have copyright issues, but I'm sure you'll find something.
12:59:50 <alise> AnMaster: Well, yes.
12:59:53 <alise> Doesn't really matter.
13:00:57 <AnMaster> okay the flow chart isn't perfect, for example it says "mix" but with what? an electric mixer? a wooden ladle?
13:01:11 <AnMaster> but the idea isn't fundamentally flawed though
13:01:25 <alise> Now imagine extending that "mix" to have the full information.
13:01:35 <alise> Quite horizontally extended, you might say.
13:01:36 <AnMaster> footnotes? definitions chapter?
13:01:41 <alise> By which I mean "I hope you like scrolling in two dimensions."
13:01:47 <alise> And good luck /printing/ this.
13:01:52 <alise> Or will you put a computer right next to all your foodery?
13:02:02 <alise> AnMaster: So now it's obfuscated English text, cross-referenced.
13:02:07 <alise> I'll take simple words.
13:02:07 <AnMaster> alise, yes, on the freezer door :P
13:02:20 <alise> AnMaster: And jog over to your freezer whenever you complete a step?
13:02:26 <AnMaster> alise, okay but simply making the arrows wider to allow 2 lines of text would work
13:02:29 <alise> Most people keep cookbooks right next to their working surface.
13:02:40 <alise> AnMaster: Do that, then replace the arrows with "then". What's lost?
13:02:50 <AnMaster> alise, well okay, computers everywhere. I'm still waiting for the holographic terminals. Oh and the flying cars...
13:03:00 <alise> And the Singularity...
13:03:50 <alise> Then it won't matter since we won't have to cook. :P
13:04:22 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I think a directed graph would be better. Could also be nicely rendered with graphviz
13:04:27 <alise> Unless you want to. But then you'll just use your amazing memory to know the entire recipe.
13:05:15 <AnMaster> alise, the problems with current recipes is that it is hard to keep your location in them, maybe some sort of marker placed on top of the text would help
13:05:23 <AnMaster> since you need to check back several times during cooking
13:06:15 <AnMaster> also it should be strictly chronological order. It is no good to find that you should have done something else in another beaker 10 minutes before, and during that done the thing described first
13:06:41 <alise> Of course, that is simply a badly-written recipe.
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13:06:57 <alise> Most words are badly written.
13:06:59 <AnMaster> alise, not written for engineers at least
13:07:07 <alise> What makes you think flowcharts won't be badly made too?
13:07:17 <alise> http://www.cookingforengineers.com/? I've never used it, mind.
13:08:07 <alise> Hah! I thought someone else had invented ginger jam before me, but it is savoury!
13:08:16 <AnMaster> doesn't seem too different from normal
13:08:17 <alise> No, I am the first to produce a substance that will turn a Rich Tea into a Ginger Nut!
13:08:37 <alise> AnMaster: It's certainly more precise.
13:08:47 <alise> Yes, it seems people use the term to mean something you'd put on meat.
13:08:55 <alise> But nothing! Nothing! That will turn a Rich Tea into a Ginger Nut!
13:08:56 <AnMaster> alise, at least no "add salt until it tates good"
13:08:59 <alise> I am the sole innovator in this area!
13:09:16 <AnMaster> alise, no I seem ginger jam on toast
13:09:16 <alise> AnMaster: "I don't like putting hot items into my refrigerator, so I like to use an aluminum half sheet pan as a heat sink."
13:09:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Die.
13:09:29 <AnMaster> don't like ginger at all in fact
13:09:30 <alise> It is quite spicy. But it was nice on biscuits.
13:09:36 <alise> It was sweet and all.
13:09:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I quite like them dunked. They're no more bland than Digestives.
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13:10:16 <alise> Recipe for ginger jam - so imprecise that AnMaster will cry -:
13:10:33 <AnMaster> alise, however, what about stuff like "fry the bacon", how do you know when to stop? In most recipes it doesn't seem to give an exact time
13:10:36 <alise> Put a little bit of ground ginger into a mixing bowl. Add water until it is not opaque; a bit more than 50% opaque.
13:10:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I beg to differ. They have so little structure that they disintegrate when you hold them in the steam.
13:10:46 <alise> Add about two-to-three slightly-more-than-teaspoons of sugar.
13:10:47 <AnMaster> you need some good measurement for that stuff
13:10:55 <alise> Put in a pan. Gas Mark 5 or so.
13:10:58 <alise> here comes the imprecise bit
13:11:08 <alise> Every now and then, add about 1/3 of a tablespoon of cornflour.
13:11:12 <alise> And some sugar to offset its taste.
13:11:13 <AnMaster> alise, what is gas mark 5 on an electric stove?
13:11:23 <alise> Wait until the sugar explodes^Wcaramelises.
13:11:28 <alise> Leave for a minute.
13:11:31 <alise> Tada, a little bit of ginger jam!
13:11:39 <AnMaster> we don't have gas stoves in Sweden. Well we probably do but extremely rare
13:11:40 <alise> Scale up to make something that'll actually cover two slices of toast... IF YOU DARE.
13:11:45 <alise> If it starts boiling you've done something wrong.
13:11:56 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah I don't know actually, I did this at the unit out of extreme boredom
13:12:02 <alise> Don't have a gas stove here I don't think
13:12:14 <alise> Anyway, it produces something quite nice. Very sweet obviously.
13:12:27 <alise> But I swear, spread it on a Rich Tea and it tastes like a Ginger Nut. Or your money back.
13:12:29 <AnMaster> probably in stuff like mobile units like at campings
13:12:45 <alise> AnMaster: Electric stoves tend to be so, so slow to heat up!
13:12:47 <AnMaster> smaller than mobile home units towed by a normal car
13:13:06 <AnMaster> <alise> Every now and then, add about 1/3 of a tablespoon of cornflour. <-- how often
13:13:12 <alise> Every now and then.
13:13:22 <alise> Basically when you notice "no this is very runny".
13:13:32 <AnMaster> alise, how do we define "very runny"?
13:13:32 <alise> It shouldn't be thick though. The huge explosion of the sugar makes it thick.
13:13:40 <alise> AnMaster: Like it's only slightly thicker than pure water.
13:13:57 <AnMaster> alise, see why I have problems with recipes?
13:14:08 <alise> Well, I would have written it down but this was the first time I'd done it.
13:14:16 <alise> So it was basically, you know, "oh fuck it let's add some more".
13:14:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because.
13:14:33 <AnMaster> alise, also how much sugar is required to offset the taste?
13:14:49 <alise> AnMaster: About half a slightly-bigger-than-teaspoon (a slightly-bigger-than-teaspoon is one of those plastic spoon things.)
13:14:51 <AnMaster> alise, plus this could be represented in a flow chart with a loop :D
13:15:00 <AnMaster> with entry/exit condition of course
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13:15:29 <alise> Incidentally, there needs to be a nice name for the sequence (x+1)/x for integral (natural?) x.
13:15:38 <alise> Even if it is just (1/x) + 1.
13:16:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I still think that a name is needed for the various sets of complex numbers.
13:16:10 <AnMaster> alise, I think we should list it in moles. Just imagine: ... mol sugar (chemical formula goes here)
13:16:30 <alise> Complex numbers are weird, man.
13:16:48 <AnMaster> alise, not really. Not compared to quaternions
13:17:17 <alise> The only thing weirder is infinitely complex numbers. Which I just defined to be complex numbers, extended with recursion: you have (a + b ii) where ii^2 = -1 and a and b are infinitely complex numbers.
13:17:30 <alise> YOUR MIND WILL BLOW
13:18:04 <Phantom_Hoover> But if you have a complex of the form a+bi, if a and b are complex then it's still complex.
13:18:20 <alise> ii is a new unit, not i*i.
13:18:25 <alise> I can't use i because i \in C.
13:18:28 <alise> So it's ii \in IC.
13:18:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, true.
13:18:51 <alise> Except it's in IC, not C.
13:19:10 <Phantom_Hoover> There is no functional difference as far as I can see.
13:19:14 <AnMaster> alise, I mean, j is used by engineers for i, so that would be very confusing
13:19:27 <alise> AnMaster: And quaternions use i,j,k.
13:19:32 <alise> Although nobody uses quaternions.
13:19:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Indeed.
13:19:45 <alise> That's unambiguous!
13:20:11 <alise> [["Brobdingnagian" appears in the Oxford English Dictionary as a synonym for "very large" or "gigantic".]]
13:20:15 <AnMaster> alise, math hates multi-letter abbrevs
13:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> AFAIK quaternions are used in some 3D modelling stuff.
13:20:29 <alise> You contradict thine own self!
13:20:35 <AnMaster> alise, why can't I shorten it? ;P
13:20:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But that's computers. :P
13:21:21 <alise> cs is just a branch of mathematics
13:22:34 <AnMaster> alise, also it is bordering on engineering at most unis
13:22:39 <alise> Actually I don't dislike CS. :-)
13:22:45 <alise> AnMaster: Yes, that is the real problem.
13:23:04 <alise> Computer science is definitely mathematics, but engineering of any sort is not.
13:23:19 <AnMaster> alise, engineering is like applied mathematics
13:23:27 <AnMaster> except that refers to something else iirc
13:23:30 <alise> They use mathematics though.
13:23:38 <AnMaster> alise, yeah applying it to problems.
13:23:50 <alise> Yeah. But then so does, say, accounting.
13:23:55 <AnMaster> but yeah the phrase "applied mathematics" is already in use iirc
13:24:10 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, except pure math?
13:24:44 <alise> I have a sort of urge to play with set theory.
13:25:29 <alise> It's perfectly natural!
13:27:18 <AnMaster> yes quite. When kept at reasonable levels it is nothing to worry about. But you should watch out so you don't get addicted. Could result in your downfall. Just imagine, a setoholic...
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13:27:52 <alise> Even worse, I have an urge to write an English-language translation of the axioms!
13:28:02 <alise> To indoctrinate poor, innocent mathematical children into the false religion!
13:28:09 <AnMaster> okay now you are into dangerous stuff
13:28:39 <AnMaster> alise, hm I wonder how VHDL integer type handles underflow/overflow
13:28:59 <AnMaster> it would be neat with an integer with the range 0-79
13:29:09 <AnMaster> but yeah not sure about overflow
13:29:35 <alise> I love Tarski's axiom so much
13:29:37 <alise> [[For every set x, there exists a set y whose members include:
13:29:37 <alise> * every subset of every member of y;
13:29:37 <alise> * the power set of every member of y;
13:29:38 <alise> * every subset of y of cardinality less than that of y.]]
13:29:51 <alise> it implies the axioms of infinity, choice, power set, and the existence of inaccessible cardinals
13:30:02 <alise> ∃y [x ∈ y ∧ ∀z ∈ y [∀w (w ⊆ z → w ∈ y) ∧ ∃w ∈ y ∀v (v ⊆ z → v ∈ w)] ∧ ∀z [z ⊆ y → (z ≈ y ∨ z ∈ y)]]
13:30:39 <alise> I dunno, it's the same as ()
13:30:44 <alise> I guess to make it easier to read
13:31:05 <alise> Oh; that's my quote marks.
13:32:13 <impomatic> Does anyone know the name for the symbol like an 'O' but tiny and on the baseline.
13:32:58 <alise> impomatic: Where is it used?
13:32:58 <AnMaster> or subscripted O with negative vertical space (ugh!)
13:33:29 <AnMaster> impomatic, isn't that just a subscripted 0?
13:33:34 <impomatic> But I can't find a HTML or Unicode entity for it
13:33:48 <alise> It's simply subscripted zero.
13:34:03 <alise> There is also Aleph-one, etc.
13:34:07 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, unicode has a subscripted 0 letter iirc
13:34:11 <alise> impomatic: However, using the Unicode subscripts is bad style.
13:34:14 <alise> Use <sub>0</sub> instead.
13:34:18 <alise> (They are only there for legacy reasons.)
13:34:22 <AnMaster> alise, why is the unicode subscript bad style?
13:34:42 <alise> AnMaster: only in Unicode for compatibility reasons; not every character can be subscripted, just an arbitrary, small subset; Unicode is a character set, not a typesetting system
13:34:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yeah they didn't include klingon :(
13:34:57 <alise> they are officially deprecated
13:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I have never watched any Star Trek, with the exception of the 2008 movie.
13:36:19 <alise> Star Trek is quite entertaining. Just fluff, though, of course.
13:36:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Spock kills Kirk with Rosebud and then it turns out that they're both Tyler Durden!
13:36:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The 2008 movie?
13:36:45 <alise> Do you mean the 2009 one?
13:37:03 <alise> That one is even more fluffy. :-)
13:37:51 <alise> "This idea was later used to create the 2009 film, SProxy-Connection: keep-alive Cache-Control: max-age=0 r Trek." --Wikipedia
13:38:22 <alise> [[This idea was later used to create the 2009 film, [[Star Trek (film)|SProxy-Connection: keep-alive
13:38:22 <alise> Cache-Control: max-age=0
13:38:31 <alise> [[Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country]]
13:38:44 <alise> Best Trek movie title ever
13:39:31 <alise> Or a filter issue.
13:39:50 <alise> Never seen before...
13:39:58 <alise> DUN DADANDANDAU DNUUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN
13:40:07 <alise> SProxy-Connection: keep-alive Cache-Control: max-age=0 r Trek.
13:40:34 <AnMaster> alise, To boldly go where no TCP packet has gone before!
13:40:57 <alise> "WHAT?! They're not caching our pages!"
13:41:03 <alise> "Someone... has... infiltrated... our... server."
13:41:06 <alise> "IT RUNS OUR SHIP!"
13:41:11 <alise> SIRENS SIRENS SIRENS SIRENS
13:41:26 <alise> "I'll use Mac OS X to hack our own Ruby on Rails admin interface!"
13:41:32 <AnMaster> alise, and including realistic reversing of polarity!
13:41:35 <alise> "THE PASSWORD IS 'ROSEBUD'!!!!!"
13:41:47 <AnMaster> alise, reversing polarity of the DC circuit it infected!
13:41:58 <AnMaster> the diodes will block it, shut it down
13:42:01 <alise> Kane... hacked... the Enterprise!
13:42:37 <alise> Spock... is a HUMAN
13:42:40 <alise> From an ALTERNATE REALITY!
13:42:44 <alise> HE HOLDS THE KEY TO THE CACHING
13:42:49 <alise> He must sacrifice himself...
13:43:12 <alise> The ship's drive is so powerful that if it isn't cached, the sheer energy will OBLITERATE THE UNIVERSE!
13:43:16 <alise> But DON'T TELL HEALTH AND SAFETY!
13:43:32 <AnMaster> alise, I liked my idea of realistic reversing of polarity
13:43:40 <AnMaster> presumably they have installed easy switches for it by now
13:43:49 <alise> The ship is based on solving Diophantine equations.
13:44:07 <alise> This is never elaborated upon.
13:44:18 <alise> It is, however, used in the climax to save the universe.
13:44:33 <AnMaster> okay that sounds like treknobable gone bad
13:44:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Can we use the inevitable breakdown of causality due to FTL travel as a plot point?
13:44:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, been done iirc?
13:45:17 <alise> AnMaster: They used the proof of Poincare's conjecture to prove that the circles of the ship MUST evaporate!!!!
13:45:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, yes we can.
13:45:36 <alise> It turns out that you can do infinitely long tasks in finite time if you don't care about causality.
13:45:41 <alise> The computation reaches BEYOND the end of the universe.
13:45:48 <alise> This is how it solves Diophantine equations.
13:46:32 <AnMaster> alise, which one was Poincare's conjecture?
13:46:42 <alise> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincar%C3%A9_conjecture
13:46:45 <alise> It is a theorem, at least!
13:47:00 <alise> It's about circles tightening. And spheres.
13:47:09 <alise> The second-last sphere in the image looks like the Death Star.
13:47:13 <alise> So clearly this is a Trek/Wars crossover.
13:47:22 <alise> Also clearly the redesigned Enterprise is circular.
13:47:24 <alise> And gets shrinked.
13:47:27 <alise> On the Death Star.
13:47:46 <Phantom_Hoover> We must refashion it into a torus before we are crushed!
13:48:24 <alise> I wonder if anyone has developed a theory of the reals and complexes enough in a proof assistant to define the analytically continued zeta function.
13:48:26 <AnMaster> alise, no the circle is slightly to small for the death-star
13:48:47 <alise> That requires convergent infinite sums and analytic continuation; sounds painful
13:49:16 <alise> AnMaster: That's just a continuity error
13:51:09 <alise> Dammit, I have a horrible, horrible need to give a value to the harmonic series.
13:51:37 <AnMaster> alise, of what? the death star's resonance frequency?
13:51:58 <AnMaster> alise, I preferred my interpretation :P
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13:52:29 <AnMaster> we could calculate it from the movies. Isn't it a green laser?
13:52:33 <alise> We already have values for {sum(n=1, inf) 1}, {sum(n=1, inf) n} and indeed all forms of {sum(n=1, inf) s^n} apart from n=-1.
13:53:09 <AnMaster> by measuring exact hue on that laser it should be possible to calculate what type of laser was used
13:53:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm right, unless there is a lot of dust in space for it to reflect from
13:54:00 <AnMaster> so some ionised plasma weapon perhaps?
13:54:23 <AnMaster> I have no idea at all about how to calculate anything on that
13:54:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it will also be necessary to explain the behaviour of the beams when they intersect.
13:54:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I don't remember that
13:54:53 <impomatic> Does this Aleph-null look okay? See bottom of page, reference 1 - http://corewar.co.uk/darwin
13:55:30 <AnMaster> impomatic, the usual name I heard for it is aleph-zero
13:55:43 <alise> That's exactly how you should write it. :)
13:55:52 <fizzie> Officially it's called the "superlaser", but of course there's no requirement that "superlaser" need be an instance of laser.
13:56:07 <alise> impomatic: In TeX it's written \aleph_0.
13:56:13 <AnMaster> okay wikipedia calls it "Aleph-naught" in one place
13:56:14 <alise> i.e., letter "aleph", subscript 0.
13:56:22 <alise> Wikipedia calls it "aleph-null" sometimes too.
13:57:54 <fizzie> Wookieepedia says the death star thing is "composed of several exotic matter beams accelerated and amplified by gigantic focusing magnetic lenses and coils, producing a single powerful beam", and taking "energy from a massive hypermatter core, converting the energy present in hyperspace into highly unstable particles that were tremendously destructive in normal space".
13:58:08 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what is the beam intersection thing you mentioned?
13:58:12 <fizzie> It's not exactly clear how to compute anything from the hue.
13:58:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, where did they get that from? Is it canon?
13:59:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's from one of the EU novels; I think they have several levels of canonicality in there.
13:59:22 <AnMaster> EU = European ....? Nah can't be...
13:59:50 <impomatic> I got rejected by DMOZ again. They really don't trust me to edit sections of the Open Directory! :-/
14:00:09 <AnMaster> impomatic, what? open directory? which year is this?
14:00:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: Expanded, I think.
14:00:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway, I don't think you can compute anything from that description at all
14:00:59 <impomatic> Open Directory is still there. Listing is way out of date but still ranking well in Google.
14:01:03 <AnMaster> since it is technoable all the way down
14:01:46 <impomatic> I just wanted to update a couple of sections so it doesn't reflect badly on the subject.
14:02:15 <impomatic> Probably be better if DMOZ just got wiped off the net.
14:02:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, in a full-power shot, "the amount of energy involved were so great it would generate miniscule space-time singularities, sending part of the target's mass to hyperspace and generating a massive shockwave from high-energy tachyons from hyperspace".
14:02:57 <fizzie> "I see no technogabble here."
14:03:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, I didn't know Star Wars (ab)used tachyons as well
14:04:47 <maedhros777> Anyone here know which i/o header files <ios> includes?
14:05:41 <maedhros777> Or I'll just write code and see if it compiles.
14:05:52 <AnMaster> maedhros777, might not be portable then
14:06:07 <AnMaster> maedhros777, it is /usr/include/c++/4.5.0/ios here
14:06:27 <AnMaster> I can't find cstdlib in it, probably included indirectly
14:06:37 <AnMaster> maedhros777, anyway the path will vary between systems
14:06:45 <AnMaster> the one I mentioned works on arch linux
14:06:56 <AnMaster> do C++ requires prototypes for everything?
14:07:24 <AnMaster> /usr/include/c++/4.3.3/ios on my ubuntu system
14:07:29 <AnMaster> maedhros777, uh, the usual thing?
14:07:44 <AnMaster> like: void foo(int); in a header?
14:08:11 <AnMaster> maedhros777, you can leave that out in C after all, but compiler will likely warn you
14:08:18 <AnMaster> there are good reasons to NOT leave it out
14:08:45 <maedhros777> I've never tried doing it otherwise, so I'm not sure if it's an error.
14:12:04 <maedhros777> Oh wait, printf() isn't actually included with <ios>
14:12:25 <maedhros777> How would this compile, then? http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?char+pyramid/nn_1271263335&cpp
14:13:41 <maedhros777> Maybe there's something weird with the site's C++ compiler
14:13:44 <AnMaster> maedhros777, perhaps it does allow implicit declarations (thus skipping prototype
14:14:00 <maedhros777> I tried compiling it myself and it didn't work
14:14:36 <AnMaster> maedhros777, I can't see why it wouldn't compile as C99 at least
14:16:10 <maedhros777> Whoah...I think I'm going crazy or something...I just used #import instead of #include :)
14:17:10 <AnMaster> maedhros777, that code used import yes
14:17:32 <AnMaster> it might have a meaning with some preprocessors
14:17:47 <AnMaster> I don't think anything forbids such an implementation specific extension
14:18:16 <maedhros777> Maybe I should do that with the site's compiler, since it cuts down on characters
14:18:28 <fizzie> Objective-C has an #import preprocessor directive.
14:18:45 <fizzie> Possibly the compiler recognizes it even in C++ mode, then.
14:18:56 <fizzie> (If it is a combined C/ObjC/C++ thing.)
14:19:10 <maedhros777> This golf site has like a million languages
14:20:36 <fizzie> My GCC does in C mode, albeit noisily.
14:20:38 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ cat > test.c
14:20:38 <fizzie> int main(void) { printf("foo\n"); return 0; }
14:20:38 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ gcc -o test test.c
14:20:38 <fizzie> test.c:1:2: warning: #import is a deprecated GCC extension
14:20:43 <alise> maedhros777: sinh?
14:21:31 <AnMaster> it can't be the objc thing then
14:21:41 <AnMaster> maedhros777, yes, what do you use?
14:22:10 <fizzie> I get the same thing from g++ too.
14:22:23 <fizzie> g++ (Ubuntu 4.4.3-4ubuntu5) 4.4.3, to be exact.
14:24:25 <maedhros777> Oh wait, look at this: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/8etzzkb6%28VS.71%29.aspx
14:24:33 <fizzie> Yes, but that's not the GCC #import.
14:24:56 <fizzie> <fizzie> test.c:1:2: warning: #import is a deprecated GCC extension
14:24:59 <fizzie> That sure looks like one.
14:25:18 <fizzie> Possibly it's like the Objective-C #import, just extended to work in the C/C++ modes too.
14:25:45 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it doesn't do what the even weirder Visual C++ #import does.
14:25:48 <maedhros777> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/172262/c-include-and-import-difference
14:26:16 <AnMaster> "Import in gcc: The import in gcc is different from the import in VC++. It is a simple way to include a header at most once only. (In VC++ and GCC you can do this via #pragma once as well)"
14:27:00 <maedhros777> One of the answers noted the "deprecated GCC extension" warning
14:29:01 <AnMaster> it's nice that my desktop doesn't need any file from /lib/firmware. My laptop seems to use two binary firmware blobs, one for ethernet (tg3) and one for wlan (iwlagn)
14:29:29 <maedhros777> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Count+asterisks+
14:30:28 <AnMaster> okay I'm pretty sure that the befunge93 one can only be that short by checking first char
14:30:29 <maedhros777> I should really do this in C instead (less std::)
14:30:56 <maedhros777> In FlogScript, someone did it with 2 chars
14:31:08 <AnMaster> befunge93 with 3 chars? I don't believe it
14:31:10 <fizzie> Gah, there it is in the manual; http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.3.6/cpp/Obsolete-once_002donly-headers.html
14:31:11 <maedhros777> Even with cheating, i still don't understand how that's possible
14:31:25 <AnMaster> heck not even without cheating
14:31:52 <Deewiant> Works for the two samples anyway
14:31:55 <maedhros777> You think it would be cheating if I checked for non-whitespace?
14:32:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the char code of *
14:33:07 <fizzie> Deewiant: Don't you mean ~?
14:33:20 <Deewiant> I never remember which is which
14:33:24 <Deewiant> Since you sound sure, I probably do
14:33:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: I only sound sure because I checked the spec. :p
14:33:41 <maedhros777> So do you think looking for non-whitespace would be cheating?
14:34:34 <AnMaster> hm more than 2 chars there right?
14:35:03 <AnMaster> maedhros777, "output as ascii code" vs. "output as number"
14:35:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I wonder what it does with the extra whitespace
14:37:07 <AnMaster> no TeX or LaTeX or Plain TeX as far as I can find
14:41:02 <AnMaster> okay how does it do the erlang thing...
14:41:29 <AnMaster> I mean, it seems to require a full module
14:41:38 <AnMaster> but what would the entry point be
14:43:39 <maedhros777> I think mine is so long because of the std::'s all over the place
14:43:55 <maedhros777> maybe I should've done "using namespace std;"
14:44:45 <alise> I suggest not using C++ :-)
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14:49:07 <maedhros777> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Palindromic+prime
14:50:48 <AnMaster> alise, if you resubmit after making it shorter, is the old one removed?
14:51:06 <alise> if it does, that is a bug
14:51:21 <alise> i don't think you should be allowed to do that
14:51:23 <alise> write shinh in #anagolf
14:51:43 <AnMaster> alise, so you can't have multiple entries by your nick
14:51:58 <AnMaster> since I realised how to cut down on the length you see
14:52:05 <alise> AnMaster: that's a bug because it means anyone can overwrite
14:52:54 -!- maedhros777 has left (?).
14:53:04 <AnMaster> alise, it kept the minimum it seems
14:53:34 <AnMaster> alise, it may be me that got confused somehow
14:54:57 <AnMaster> hm new record . lets see what happened
14:55:13 <AnMaster> okay it definite let me overwrite
14:55:24 <AnMaster> also, the erlang code can be made shorter if not using form
14:55:30 <AnMaster> since you can make a shorter module name then
14:56:55 <AnMaster> alise, mentioned it in that channel
14:57:30 <alise> AnMaster: ping shinh about it
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15:18:49 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC #import is identical to #include, except it is sane if you use it more than once.
15:19:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes we found that
15:25:14 <Phantom_Hoover> What is the structure of a circle for complex values of x and y?
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15:29:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Complex.
15:30:49 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what are x and y here?
15:31:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, why not plot it
15:32:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, you take a pen or pencil and some paper
15:33:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you can maybe use x,y,z,colour?
15:33:22 <AnMaster> 3D plot with colour function or such
15:33:45 <AnMaster> I remember getting something that looked really hippie from something rather simple
15:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait the Wolfram Demonstrations Project has something.
15:34:09 <AnMaster> I remember alise said something like "what was that in my drink" or similar as a response to mentioning it in this channel
15:34:38 <AnMaster> grep logs from last year or a bit more
15:34:48 <alise> Or don't because it doesn't matter so much :-)
15:34:59 <AnMaster> but iirc I pasted the code for it
15:35:15 <AnMaster> just modify the expressions required
15:35:25 <AnMaster> same Plot3D or whatever over-all structure
15:38:58 <AnMaster> alise, btw for some reason I'm getting more battery time on my thinkpad nowdays than when it was new
15:39:12 <AnMaster> like from about 3 hours → about 5 hours
15:39:37 <AnMaster> both with wlan turned off and semi-bright screen (brightest is too bright anyway in many places)
15:41:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, found it: http://sprunge.us/QMhM
15:41:47 <AnMaster> it was even using complex stuff
15:43:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, something random as a test. Was trying to figure out how to plot something similar
15:43:34 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, forgot what the actual function I wanted to plot was
15:43:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway it may allow you to plot that circle
15:44:33 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well should work too?
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16:11:48 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Peter_Treveris_-_engraving_of_Trepanation_for_Handywarke_of_surgeri_1525.png
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16:16:45 <alise> AnMaster: That picture is so the opposite of ^_^ in every way :P
16:21:04 <AnMaster> alise, well yes, it was "^_^" at you linking it
16:32:52 <alise> Kuratowski ordered pairs require deciding equality on sets :/
16:33:59 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:34:23 <oerjan> does this mean i've been missed?
16:35:52 <oerjan> do you browse the logs? i've been commenting on your beta reduction questions but your connection dropped
16:36:31 <oerjan> possibly several times
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16:45:19 <uorygl> Aww, I was hoping we would have all six.
16:45:26 <oerjan> hi Adrian^L Alex3012 AnMaster augur BeholdMyGlory bsmntbombdood cal153 chickenzilla comex Deewiant FireFly fizzie Geekthras Gracenotes Gregor Ilari ineiros jcp jix Leonidas lifthrasiir Mathnerd314 MizardX mtve mycroftiv myndzi olsner P4 Phantom_Hoover pikhq pineapple Quadrescence rodgort sebbu2 SimonRC Slereah sshc wareya yiyus ZeroOne
16:45:38 * sebbu2 slaps oerjan around a bit with a very large trout
16:46:09 <oerjan> it _seemed_ the obvious followup
16:46:17 * sebbu2 catch oerjan and tear him apart
16:46:37 <oerjan> to alise, Phantom_Hoover and uorygl
16:46:50 <oerjan> oh wait i should have left out Phantom_Hoover in the list
16:47:01 <Gracenotes> NAMES spam can be good, because it brings a channel together against a common enemy
16:47:03 <oerjan> no need being _redundant_
16:47:12 <Gracenotes> unless that enemy is not immediately kickbanned :|
16:47:33 <Gracenotes> or at least given a week of paid leave
16:47:35 <uorygl> Yeah, where's our /attack command? We should be able to drain oerjan's hitpoints.
16:48:10 <oerjan> argh no, not the flash!
16:51:21 <alise> CIGARS ARE LIKE FLOWERS
16:51:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, for that mass-highlight
16:51:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, dropped a 1-gigaton weight on top of you
16:51:57 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if it's possible for a Life spaceship to travel at <c
16:52:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: of courwse
16:52:28 <uorygl> Phantom_Hoover: every Life spaceship does.
16:52:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um they all do
16:52:46 <alise> although that is not <c ofc
16:52:46 <oerjan> you cannot have a spaceship at == c iirc
16:53:02 <uorygl> Right, for an orthogonal spaceship, the fastest speed is c/2.
16:53:04 <oerjan> and >c is of course impossible by definition
16:53:08 <alise> I forget the proof, but it has been proved that some spaceship is the fastest possible
16:53:28 <alise> oerjan: I wonder if we could add an "axiom" to Life that functions as a >c-travelling spaceship. Then observe the hilarious effects of time travel.
16:53:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, can't you do something like a tunnel iirc by placing some pattern which basically "forwards" the glider at faster than c
16:53:53 <uorygl> Alas, Life doesn't obey relativity.
16:54:00 <AnMaster> of course that is cheating but I saw it in some golly example
16:54:03 <oerjan> you don't get time travel unless it's also invariant under lorentz transformations
16:54:11 <uorygl> Phantom_Hoover: right, with a track, you can go at c.
16:54:25 <Phantom_Hoover> No effect propagates faster than c, it just looks like that.
16:54:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ah possibly, I don't remember the details
16:54:39 <poiuy_qwert> anyone heard of an IRC bot in an esoteric language other then fungot?
16:54:39 <fungot> poiuy_qwert: the fnord clan of devil-worshippers. the tramp ship and its crew remain an elusive mystery. though i saw him monstrously perched atop a mountain of beef,
16:55:12 <uorygl> AnMaster: I think it checks whether the front of the spaceship is there, and if so, puts the back on a spaceship whose front it's already produced.
16:55:13 <alise> <uorygl> Alas, Life doesn't obey relativity.
16:55:28 <alise> <oerjan> you don't get time travel unless it's also invariant under lorentz transformations
16:55:39 <oerjan> uorygl: i had a theory once that rule 110 _does_ obey some kind of relativity, because the speeds of many gliders seemed related by a certain function
16:55:41 <uorygl> Wow, you guys collectively said three lines in the time it took for me to type "Roughly speaking."
16:56:01 <alise> Anyway, seriously, adding axiomatic >c travellers to Life.
16:56:07 <oerjan> however i concluded later it may just be an artifact of rule 110's "ether" structure
16:56:19 <uorygl> Stuff goes faster than c.
16:57:00 <uorygl> I type at... let me think, I don't want to name a number that sounds impossible, so 70 WPM.
16:57:15 <alise> poiuy_qwert: netcat
16:57:18 <alise> I type at something like 110 wpm when I'm trying.
16:57:25 <alise> More like 80-90 wpm when I'm not trying.
16:57:43 <uorygl> I wonder how fast I can type on the iPhone.
16:57:46 <alise> poiuy_qwert: no, it's just a program that hooks stdin/stdout to a network
16:57:49 <alise> AnMaster: stop assuming people are on unix
16:57:58 <AnMaster> alise, I refuse to stop assuming that
16:58:06 <alise> I think it is fairly safe to say that I am an above-competent typer, since I've been doing it since I was three.
16:58:07 <AnMaster> alise, well I can start assuming everyone is on plan9 then
16:58:09 <uorygl> I'm on a Mac, and even I am on Unix.
16:58:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: ais523's bot was in thutu(2?), not thue iirc. it supported an underload interpreter...
16:58:18 <alise> Most people are not in Unix.
16:58:19 <poiuy_qwert> well actually im on Mac so i should know this, but im fairly new to unix command line
16:58:37 <alise> poiuy_qwert: It's okay not to know things. Nobody expects you to be psychic. Well, nobody reasonable.
16:58:40 <alise> oerjan: yeah it was thutu2
16:58:40 <AnMaster> no idea if macs include nc by default
17:00:08 <poiuy_qwert> making an IRC bot in an esoteric language has been my goal since starting esoteric languages :P
17:01:18 <oerjan> (btw it might still be that rule 110 has _some_ lorentz transformation-like thing possible, but it's probably going to require something like those life cell simulated in life things, with a time shift.)
17:03:13 <alise> oerjan: So what effects do you think a >c spaceship would have interacting with other things?
17:03:54 <oerjan> well almost by definition it would mean the c isn't _really_ the c for the CA...
17:04:01 <alise> Hmm, I guess if you have three observers a few cells apart on the same line, and a spaceship travelling towards them, they'd see it come right next to them then disappear; the observers behind it would then experience the same.
17:04:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Axiomatically.
17:04:29 <alise> Consider cells to have colour white, black or octarine; octarine cells in certain configurations are defined as moving faster than c in directions according to those configurations.
17:04:30 <Phantom_Hoover> But do we have an extra state, or a weird change to the transition rules?
17:04:49 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so how do octarine cells react with white and black cells?
17:04:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: For all other purposes -- such as deciding what should happen to other cells -- octarine cells are considered as white.
17:05:08 <uorygl> White means dead, right?
17:05:49 <Phantom_Hoover> uorygl: It makes no difference, but I consider them live.
17:06:07 <uorygl> Dead and live are not the same thing.
17:06:14 <alise> White means alive.
17:06:42 <uorygl> For some reason, I think of octarine as being periwinkle, even though everyone knows it's a greenish-yellow purple.
17:06:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: They interact with each other in a way that encodes which direction they go.
17:06:53 <alise> How that is is unknown.
17:07:03 <alise> But suppose they exist; then what?
17:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> To work out all the implications we need more information.
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17:08:16 <uorygl> How about this: If there's an L- or J-tetromino within an otherwise empty 4x7 block, then the next generation, it moves forward by two.
17:08:23 <alise> An octarine cannot arise naturally.
17:08:32 <alise> It is an Act of God for octarine cells to exist in the initial configuration.
17:08:46 <alise> They can be destroyed by colliding with white cells as if they were themselves white.
17:09:05 <alise> So they are not indestructable, but locally in their own configuration of octarines and blacks they perform completely differently, as spaceships exceeding c.
17:09:15 <AnMaster> alise, so they go away after 1 generation?
17:09:18 <alise> They do not; or rather, they only do so by moving more than one cell per cycle.
17:10:03 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so let us suppose that we have an octarine, and that each generation it dies and a new octarine is produced two cells to the right.
17:10:41 <alise> Yes, let us say that. In reality, they would be in packed configurations determining the direction.
17:10:54 <alise> However, also say that if there are other cells in its neighbourhood:
17:11:10 <alise> Run the general algorithm to find out whether it would live or die were it white.
17:11:15 <alise> If it would life, move it two cells to the right as planned.
17:11:23 <alise> If it would die, make it dead; the spaceship is destroyed.
17:11:32 <alise> For the purposes of the algorithm in all cases, octarine cells are treat as white.
17:11:41 <AnMaster> alise, so what if it would live but mutate into a different shape?
17:11:42 <alise> And nothing ever creates an octarine cell.
17:11:47 <alise> AnMaster: That is impossible.
17:11:49 <alise> We are talking about single cells.
17:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> So an octarine block would be a spaceship in a vacuum?
17:12:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, travelling at >c.
17:12:33 <AnMaster> alise, depends on your reference frame
17:12:41 <AnMaster> if you are traveling at the same speed...
17:12:46 <alise> The questions are: from an "observer's" point of view, how do these spaceships work?; and how do collisions with them work?
17:13:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it would be fun if it was!
17:13:24 <AnMaster> alise, so implement it and test it
17:13:33 <alise> AnMaster: I'd rather have us collectively think about it first.
17:14:18 <alise> That is a good question.
17:14:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, presumably one would overwrite the other, or both would die
17:14:30 <alise> It will either become octarine, become alive, or become dead.
17:14:33 <alise> These are the only choices.
17:14:36 <alise> Well, let's think about collisions.
17:14:41 <alise> A spaceship bashes into a wall.
17:14:51 <alise> Let's say the wall is infinitely strong.
17:14:55 <alise> The spaceship is destroyed. The wall is not.
17:15:01 <alise> That is an argument for become-alive.
17:15:05 <alise> A spaceship bashes into a wall.
17:15:13 <alise> The spaceship is infinitely strong; the wall not.
17:15:19 <alise> The wall is go bye-bye; spaceship takes its place.
17:15:21 <AnMaster> alise, what if both the spaceship and the walls are infinitely strong?
17:15:23 <alise> That is an argument for become-octarine.
17:15:25 <alise> A spaceship bashes into a wall.
17:15:28 <alise> Both are infinitely strong.
17:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Remember, the spaceship is travelling at twice the speed of light.
17:15:33 <alise> The universe explodes. Both disappear.
17:15:36 <alise> That is an argument for become-dead.
17:15:53 <AnMaster> alise, if neither is infinitely strong?
17:16:06 <alise> Well, infinitely strong really just means stronger than the other.
17:16:11 <AnMaster> alise, Phantom_Hoover, hm you could get quantum tunneling like effects by this
17:16:17 <alise> It seems that become-dead involves a>b, b>a.
17:16:18 <AnMaster> if the wall and the ship are correctly aligned
17:16:19 <alise> So we can ignore that.
17:16:22 <AnMaster> it could pass through the wall
17:16:33 <alise> So which are stronger, regular still cells or fucked up faster-than-light spaceships?
17:16:37 <alise> I guess spaceships.
17:16:42 <alise> So it becomes octarine.
17:16:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes; if it goes next to it.
17:16:49 <alise> AnMaster: that's my main interest
17:17:05 <alise> let o = octarine, a = alive, . = dead
17:17:15 <alise> oa. -> depends because the a would change the octarine right?
17:17:22 <alise> o.a. -> o obliterates a
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17:17:33 <alise> so is there a configuration of octarines and alives such that octarines skip over the alives?
17:17:41 <alise> but feel free to consider
17:17:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: doesn't a line die instantly in life?
17:18:30 <alise> this is going to be one fucked up space ship :)
17:18:41 <AnMaster> alise, oh you mean the rotating mincer yeah ;P
17:19:08 <alise> the rotating, CONSTANTLY ACCELERATING AT 2C, mincer
17:19:12 <alise> so if octarines can skip certain walls
17:19:17 <alise> those walls just have to be in the right place
17:19:21 <alise> and they will avoid death!
17:19:25 <alise> AnMaster: yes, but now imagine the +s are octarine
17:19:53 <AnMaster> alise, how is it constantly accelerating though?
17:19:57 <alise> so I guess octarine cells can be created
17:20:05 <alise> if we're considering the neighbourhoods of octarines
17:20:09 <alise> instead of creating whites we create octarines
17:20:14 <AnMaster> alise, well they have to, otherwise you will always have still-lifes
17:20:17 <alise> AnMaster: because octarines move if they survive by definition
17:20:23 <alise> two cells to the rgith
17:20:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what does?
17:21:21 <alise> How is this not symmetric?
17:21:23 <alise> Oh, the rightwardsness.
17:21:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, the long-term plan was that certain configurations of octarines move in different definitions.
17:21:47 <alise> Like, we consider an 8-neighbourhood as a binary number saying direction.
17:21:50 <AnMaster> alise, what sort of configurations
17:22:05 <alise> Such that the "reversal" of a configuration moves in the opposite direction.
17:22:13 <alise> This requires breaking more rules though.
17:22:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Something like that, let us say. A neighbourhood of octarines and blacks, that is.
17:24:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: but perhaps this is the Key
17:24:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe consider the Moore neighbourhood for 2 cells around?
17:25:15 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, isn't this by definition defining the value of c in this CA?
17:25:25 <alise> AnMaster: Probably. But ssh.
17:25:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Sure.
17:25:39 <uorygl> Define c as one cell per generation. Problem solved. :P
17:25:59 <AnMaster> alise, I think you need a relativistic CA for c to become interesting
17:26:06 <AnMaster> but I can't imagine how that would happen
17:26:19 <alise> Well. Let's do it.
17:26:22 <alise> Wolfram would be proud.
17:26:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Relativity sort of implies non-discrete time and space.
17:26:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, exactly the issue yeah
17:27:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a term we use to describe the behaviour of patterns that regenerate themselves somewhere else.
17:29:09 <AnMaster> Reminds me of that esolang... Gravity iirc
17:29:11 <alise> Hey, we can invent discrete relativity.
17:29:23 <alise> AnMaster: yes and no
17:29:39 <AnMaster> well uncomputable in general iirc
17:29:53 <AnMaster> alise, that might work too, but I can't figure out how you get discrete relativistic effects
17:29:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Let's NOT!
17:30:02 <alise> Yesiree, relativity without primitive time!
17:30:09 <alise> Or if that's not possible, eh, we'll Work Something Out.
17:30:44 <AnMaster> well, yes time will pass at different rates in different parts due to relativity. Well not different parts. For different observers rather.
17:31:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Cleverly.
17:31:20 <AnMaster> we would still have a c, but it would be relative observer, no?
17:31:24 <alise> Hmm, we need a physicist here.
17:31:29 <Phantom_Hoover> If we haven't defined *what* speed is, we can't do relativity.
17:31:51 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't really make sense for non-spaceshippy objects.
17:32:08 <AnMaster> what doesn't? speed? relativity?
17:32:38 <AnMaster> anyway, why do we need a discrete CA?
17:32:48 <AnMaster> why not make a non-discrete one?
17:33:20 <alise> A continuous CA has several problems, such as: not being a CA; and being uncomputable.
17:33:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, we need to define a notion of another cell being the "heir" of another cell.
17:33:43 <alise> Then the speed is the distance between a cell and its heir across a generation.
17:34:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, actually it is a CA even if not discrete. Except CA now stands for Continuous Automaton ;P
17:34:18 <alise> Not if we define the CA such that we have some equation.
17:34:25 <alise> Such that given a cell and its neighbourhood, we can point to its heir.
17:35:31 <alise> Yes. But the neighbourhood provides more information.
17:36:18 <alise> Life isn't reversible.
17:36:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, to it's heir, not to it's parents
17:36:27 <AnMaster> the latter would be reversible
17:36:29 <alise> And what AnMaster said.
17:37:00 <AnMaster> alise, how can we get anything relativistic from this though
17:37:22 <Phantom_Hoover> By relativistic effects we mean contraction and time dilation, right?
17:37:22 <AnMaster> alise, time slowing down or such depending on observers sounds like something we should have
17:37:25 <alise> Well, my definition gives us a definition of speed.
17:37:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that sort of stuff yes
17:37:35 <alise> Then we just need to sort of discretise the relativity formulas and tweak them a bit.
17:37:58 <AnMaster> alise, also is this special relativity only?
17:38:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Consider a notion of distance xDy.
17:38:40 <AnMaster> why not. you could compute some sort of average by number of alive cells at any point
17:38:54 <alise> Given two pairs of coordinates (a,b) and (c,d) (a,b)D(c,d) is some distance metric on them, such that (a,b)D(a,b) = 0.
17:38:57 <AnMaster> with some function to reduce weight when further away
17:38:58 <alise> And probably some other properties too.
17:39:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: So we define speed as the distance from the heir?
17:39:22 <alise> Then consider the heir of a cell (x,y) according to its state and its neighbourhood being a set of coordinates (xH,yH).
17:39:38 <alise> Then the amount a cell (x,y) moved across a generation is (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:39:42 <oerjan> i go away to make food and here you go reinventing _my_ idea of relativistic CAs. shame on you. </half-joke>
17:39:56 <alise> That is, for the generation, its speed was (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:39:58 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, with something like inverse square root you would get newtownian gravity. I don't really know the formulas for general relativity style gravity, but can't see why something similar shouldn't work (but with a different function of course)
17:40:01 <alise> Of course, its speed can change.
17:40:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Good enough?
17:40:33 <alise> So, let's not say speed, let's say velocity.
17:40:49 <AnMaster> alise, by that definition classical life would have a velocity of 1 right?
17:40:51 <alise> Should we just write (a,b) - (c,d) instead of distance?
17:40:57 <alise> (a,b) - (c,d) = (a - c, b - d)
17:41:24 <alise> I don't think you can define a good notion of heir for Life.
17:41:52 <AnMaster> anyway should we use straight distance or manhattan distance?
17:42:04 <AnMaster> alise, and wouldn't the distance vary with velocity (relativistic effects)
17:42:10 -!- soupdragon has joined.
17:42:22 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d)=(a-c,b-d)
17:42:28 <alise> Is this Manhattan or straight?
17:42:47 <AnMaster> uh... that is a vector between them
17:42:52 <AnMaster> which is not a distance as such
17:42:59 <alise> But velocity is a vector.
17:43:07 <alise> But what I meant by velocity is.
17:43:12 <oerjan> manhattan is |a-c| + |b-d|
17:43:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well okay, bad word choice
17:43:49 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d)=(a-c,b-d)
17:43:49 <alise> (a,b)<with|math-font|Euler|D>(c,d)=\|a-c\|+\|b-d\|
17:43:54 <alise> let me write it out
17:43:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but isn't momentum a vector?
17:43:59 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:44:03 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:44:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, do photons have a momentum?
17:44:19 <alise> Then "v = (x,y)D(xH,yH)", yes?
17:44:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, they have no mass
17:44:30 <AnMaster> so well if reality can do it...
17:44:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes they have energy
17:44:49 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
17:44:49 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:44:49 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:44:49 <alise> Name (x,y)-(xH,yH).
17:44:49 <alise> Name (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:45:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but we would with some general relativity :P
17:45:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: E^2 - (pc)^2 = (mc^2)^2, where only the whole thing is 0 for a photon
17:45:49 <alise> AnMaster: give them variable names and give them names like "velocity", etc
17:46:03 <alise> soupdragon: repeat the message plz
17:46:23 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I say this won't work since you can't get time slowdown and distance reduction (whatever they were called, forgot)
17:46:31 <AnMaster> I can't see how you can get that
17:46:35 <alise> soupdragon: well... tell me anyway!
17:46:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Too much chat).
17:46:56 <alise> I won't; which day so I know which day not to read?
17:47:11 <alise> Usually I logread every day.
17:47:36 <alise> Anyway, name them dammit!
17:48:02 <alise> Sheesh, you do it Phantom_Hoover.
17:48:05 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
17:48:05 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:48:05 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:48:05 <alise> Name (x,y)-(xH,yH).
17:48:05 <alise> Name (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:48:08 <AnMaster> alise, but I can't see how you can get relativistic effects from it :(
17:48:18 <alise> AnMaster: well after this we'll define relative velocity...
17:48:42 <AnMaster> alise, we need some fixed light speed to get any relativistic effects, no?
17:48:50 <alise> yes, but let's name these first :P
17:48:56 <AnMaster> or some other absolute for every observer
17:49:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how would we get relativistic effects between observers then?
17:51:02 <AnMaster> and how would that be ensured to have relativistic effects?
17:51:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: NAME IT DOG GAMMIT
17:51:21 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
17:51:22 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:51:22 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:51:22 <alise> Name (x,y)-(xH,yH).
17:51:22 <alise> Name (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:51:42 <alise> 13:09:59 <soupdragon> Message to alise from the roughly 4 days in the past:
17:51:42 <alise> 13:10:20 <soupdragon> π/√8 = 1 + 1/3 - 1/5 - 1/7 + 1/9 + 1/11 - ...
17:51:42 <alise> 13:10:21 <soupdragon> π^2/8 = 1 + 1/3^2 + 1/5^2 + 1/7^2 + 1/9^2 + 1/11^2 + ...
17:51:42 <alise> 13:10:39 <soupdragon> End
17:51:45 <alise> this is the thing i must not read yeah?
17:52:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but isn't the point of relativity that, from any given observer everyone else is moving no faster than light?
17:52:51 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
17:52:51 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:52:52 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:52:52 <alise> Name (x,y)-(xH,yH).
17:52:52 <alise> Name (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:52:55 <alise> soupdragon: fine, you name the above :-)
17:52:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Things can appear to be travelling faster than light due to space's expansion.
17:53:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well okay but without that expansion it can't happen right?
17:53:16 <alise> the heir being the cell that (x,y) is considered to have "moved to".
17:53:22 <AnMaster> alise, well one should be distance
17:53:24 <alise> (xH,yH) is always alive
17:53:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: which is which?
17:53:31 <AnMaster> the other one yeah displacement sounds nice
17:53:52 <alise> displacement and distance start with the same letter
17:53:56 <alise> give them variable names :P
17:54:12 <alise> should one be called velocity?
17:54:27 <AnMaster> alise, delta also starts with d
17:54:47 <AnMaster> alise, none of them are velocity afaik?
17:54:49 <alise> AnMaster: could use the uppercase delta
17:54:52 <alise> or even the lowercase
17:55:04 <AnMaster> oh you mean the greek letter heh
17:55:18 <alise> and use that for displacement, yeah?
17:55:23 <AnMaster> the former is what you use for distance delta
17:55:24 <alise> δ clashes with derivaterivy stuff but meh
17:55:45 <AnMaster> alise, Δ clashes with derivaterivy too, no?
17:55:52 <alise> yeah... but we're not doing derivatives
17:55:56 <alise> since that's real, continuous stuff
17:56:00 <alise> and we're in a finite world
17:56:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, copy and paste from alise
17:56:05 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
17:56:05 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:56:05 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:56:05 <alise> δ = (x,y)-(xH,yH).
17:56:05 <alise> Δ = (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:56:06 <alise> δ is displacement; Δ is distance.
17:56:16 <alise> we can say delta and Delta for convenience.
17:56:22 -!- lament has joined.
17:56:23 <alise> or \delta and \Delta if that is not unambiguous enough for you.
17:56:37 <alise> let's define velocity now
17:57:43 <alise> δ is unrestricted; Δ is > 0
17:57:49 <alise> AnMaster: we have not defined velocity
17:57:55 <alise> so it does not matter yet i think
17:58:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: don't we need velocity to define acceleration?
17:58:24 <AnMaster> alise, it does, you need a coordinate system to have a vector in if you want to put any numbers to it
17:58:33 <AnMaster> which you need for that definition
17:58:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Since time is discrete, displacement and velocity are pretty much equivalent.
17:58:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: True.
17:58:56 <alise> So why not call (x,y)-(xH,yH) v, for velocity?
17:59:07 <alise> <alise> So why not call (x,y)-(xH,yH) v, for velocity?
17:59:24 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
17:59:24 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
17:59:24 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
17:59:24 <alise> v = (x,y)-(xH,yH).
17:59:24 <alise> d = (x,y)D(xH,yH).
17:59:25 <alise> v is velocity/displacement; d is distance.
17:59:42 <soupdragon> stop fucking overreacting for christs sake
17:59:47 <alise> please hit soupdragon with a bat
18:00:08 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
18:00:08 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
18:00:08 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
18:00:08 <alise> v = (x,y)-(xH,yH).
18:00:08 -!- cheater2 has joined.
18:00:10 <alise> d = (x,y)D(xH,yH).
18:00:12 <alise> v is velocity/displacement; d is speed/distance(sort of).
18:00:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, he is not connected
18:00:26 <soupdragon> god it's like a bunch of stupid idiots in here
18:00:30 -!- nooga has joined.
18:00:33 <alise> We still have yet to define how to calculate a heir; it depends on the actual CA rules, so we'll just leave it as postulated for now.
18:00:36 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19txZDTkbBw CTO
18:00:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: We should define relative velocity now, yeah?
18:01:22 <AnMaster> alise, and that must have an upper bound. I'm pretty sure we don't get relativistic effects otherwise
18:01:26 <alise> I don't see any problem with using the usual http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_velocity definition.
18:01:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
18:02:02 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so how does stuff accelerate?
18:02:02 <AnMaster> <alise> Phantom_Hoover: We should define relative velocity now, yeah?
18:02:02 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> alise, and that must have an upper bound. I'm pretty sure we don't get relativistic effects otherwise
18:02:02 <AnMaster> <alise> I don't see any problem with using the usual http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_velocity definition.
18:02:25 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19txZDTkbBw <- my 8080 crunching some numbers
18:02:36 <AnMaster> alise, it needs to be manhattan/madhatter distance or such
18:02:55 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
18:03:00 <alise> Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood.
18:03:00 <alise> (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d)
18:03:01 <alise> (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d|
18:03:01 <alise> v = (x,y)-(xH,yH).
18:03:01 <alise> d = (x,y)D(xH,yH).
18:03:03 <alise> v is velocity/displacement; d is speed/distance(sort of).
18:03:05 <alise> Let v[(x,y)] be v with the specified (x,y), and so on.
18:03:06 <AnMaster> probably carries over to the relative
18:03:07 <alise> Relative velocity:
18:03:08 <soupdragon> OMG ALISE STOP SPAMMING DUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
18:03:09 <alise> v[A rel B] = v[A] - v[B]
18:03:11 <alise> The interesting thing here is that it depends on the heirs of two separate
18:03:13 <alise> particles, that will "move" into their new positions this generation.
18:03:16 <soupdragon> IHELPP!!!!!! ARE THERE ANY OPS I CANT HANDLE THIS
18:03:19 <alise> soupdragon: seriously just shut up.
18:03:31 <alise> nooga: i'll watch that vid now
18:03:33 <alise> it doesn't need sound right
18:03:37 <AnMaster> but yes that paste was uncalled for kind of
18:03:47 <alise> AnMaster: I wsa just putting the current state of play
18:03:56 <alise> I'll use pastie now it's big, swear.
18:03:56 <AnMaster> alise, we need pastebin very soon
18:04:03 <zzo38> Do you know which stores would sell Latin suited tarot cards?
18:04:08 <alise> nooga: that 8088 is a masterpiece
18:04:20 <alise> nooga: I've revised my opinion of you, for making a custom 8088 computer from scratch you are cool
18:04:40 <nooga> i need to get RAM working
18:04:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: so
18:04:51 <alise> we have up to relative velocity
18:04:51 <nooga> and then move to multiprocessor configuration
18:04:56 <alise> we should define acceleration, right?
18:05:20 <alise> Let (x,y)H be (xH,yH)
18:05:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:05:28 <alise> then we have the distance between two movings:
18:05:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
18:05:43 <AnMaster> nooga, next one: built it from simple logic DIP things. I suggest the 74HC* series
18:05:49 <AnMaster> as in the cpu itself from that
18:06:08 <alise> |(x,y)D(xH,yH) - (xH,yH)D(xHH,yHH)|
18:06:29 <alise> | |x-xH| + |y-yH| - |xH-xHH| + |yH-yHH| |
18:06:47 <nooga> AnMaster: i thought about that but then i realized it would be too big to assembe it without mistakes
18:07:11 <AnMaster> nooga, for multi-cpu won't you need some kind of MMU?
18:07:24 <alise> | |x-xH| + |y-yH| - |xH-xHH| + |yH-yHH| | = can we simplify this?
18:07:51 <AnMaster> nooga, I mean, to avoid collision they need to sync somehow when accessing the shared ram
18:07:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: so then we have the accelleration between two instants
18:07:58 <alise> so we just have to generalise that
18:08:02 <zzo38> I have built a simulation of CPU using a simulation of logic components
18:08:54 <AnMaster> alise, I don't think we can simplify past an abs() no. Not without loosing some possible values
18:09:04 <AnMaster> it's kind of like square + square root when it comes to that
18:09:06 <alise> anyway that is |d[A] - d[AH]|
18:09:12 <AnMaster> in fact it is pretty much exactly like that
18:09:25 <alise> Difference of speed across two generations: |d[A] - d[AH]|
18:09:36 <alise> Difference of speed across three generations: |d[A] - d[AH] - d[AHH]|
18:09:55 <alise> Difference of speed across three generations: |d[A] - d[AHH]|
18:10:00 <alise> Difference of speed across n generations: |d[A] - d[A{H^n}]|
18:10:13 <alise> wait, do we need relative speed?
18:10:21 <alise> can we define that in the same way as relative velocity?
18:10:46 <AnMaster> can't you just take manhattan distance of the relative velocity?
18:11:06 <alise> so is relative velocity
18:11:21 <alise> should we rename d to s, if it's being called speed?
18:11:22 <AnMaster> alise, we still haven't got any relativistic effects here
18:11:29 <alise> AnMaster: We have to freaking build a foundation first.
18:11:42 <AnMaster> alise, this is a newtonian+manhattan foundation :/
18:12:02 <alise> Difference of velocity across n generations: v[A{H^n}] - v[A]
18:12:02 <alise> Difference of speed across n generations: s[A{H^n}] - s[A]
18:12:06 <alise> should this be v[A] - ...
18:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but we need to *define* acceleration and velocity before we can start on relativity.
18:12:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but won't those be defined differently when you have relativity?
18:12:49 <soupdragon> also you don't even know about lagrangian density .
18:13:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Difference of speed across n generations: s[A{H^n}] - s[A]
18:13:23 <alise> Difference of speed across n generations: s[A] - s[A{H^n}]
18:13:24 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Yes, but it's helpful to have an idea as to what they look like.
18:13:28 <alise> relative velocity/speed don't have abses
18:13:33 <alise> so I'm sort of averse to using an abs there
18:14:09 <alise> and difference of speed too
18:14:10 <alise> Difference of speed across n generations: |s[A{H^n}] - s[A]|
18:14:15 <alise> (s is the new name for d)
18:14:23 <alise> Difference of velocity across n generations: v[A{H^n}] - v[A]
18:14:27 <AnMaster> alise, don't we have non-integer speeds here?
18:14:29 <alise> Difference of velocity across n generations: v[A] - v[A{H^n}]
18:14:37 <AnMaster> alise, I mean, consider a velocity of (1,1)
18:14:41 <alise> Incidentally relative speed is s[A rel AH]
18:14:52 <AnMaster> I need to wake up or something
18:15:25 <alise> http://pastie.org/961772.txt?key=owdr0qfbg56tuesrlbceg
18:15:27 <alise> Let v[(x,y)] be v with the specified (x,y), and so on.
18:15:31 <alise> v = (x,y)-(xH,yH).
18:15:41 <alise> v[A] where A=(a,b) is (a,b)-(aH,bH)
18:15:49 <alise> read x[y] as x subscript y
18:15:54 <AnMaster> so a directed finite distance?
18:15:55 <alise> since that's how it'd be rendered normally
18:16:02 <AnMaster> that is, a vector from a specific point
18:16:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: so we have differences of velocity and speed across n generations
18:16:22 <alise> AnMaster: I guess so
18:16:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: how should we define acceleration?
18:16:57 <AnMaster> alise, mathematically vectors have a length and direction. But not an x,y location or anything such
18:17:09 <alise> Hmm, well ordinarily we'd do a = dv/dt where v(t) is velocity at a certain time
18:17:18 <alise> This is the finite calculus!
18:17:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I think the answer is "not yet"
18:17:36 <soupdragon> oh wait nobody was listening to me AS USUAL
18:17:37 <alise> where 1 is the smallest time increment, one generation
18:17:46 <AnMaster> soupdragon, only because you were rather rude
18:19:15 <AnMaster> sucks at social skills though. not enough data to figure out your intelligence
18:19:36 <AnMaster> alise, wait, smallest time increment?
18:19:46 <AnMaster> alise, we can't get the relativistic time effects then can we?
18:19:48 <alise> I'm writing stuff out
18:19:56 <alise> soupdragon: funny, thinking you're smarter than everyone else is a sure sign you aren't
18:20:56 <nooga> i'll try to make semaphores on various sections of RAM
18:21:35 <alise> soupdragon: because you are nasty to them
18:22:01 <AnMaster> does that idiom exist in English as well?
18:22:03 <nooga> and write a kernel that runs on single processor and controls other units
18:22:21 <alise> waking up on the wrong side of the bed
18:22:23 <AnMaster> I definitely think soupdragon did that
18:22:35 <AnMaster> alise, ah right, in Sweden we skip the "of the bed" bit
18:22:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no a script of a non-bot
18:23:03 <AnMaster> never seen that guy talk though
18:23:04 <nooga> in Poland we say "To get up with the left leg."
18:23:17 <soupdragon> In soviet russia we say "Bed gets out of you"
18:24:04 <AnMaster> anyway how will you do the semaphores?
18:24:30 <AnMaster> nooga, you need some sort of low level arbiter if both requests to read/write arrive at once
18:24:36 <AnMaster> some kind of bus ownership or whatever
18:25:11 <AnMaster> you can't have more than one device writing on a bus at once. (well you can but it isn't a good idea...)
18:25:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, we're going to have to write the simulator for this ourselves.
18:25:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well yes, and?
18:25:42 <AnMaster> once he thinks of a name for it
18:26:09 <AnMaster> (and invented three separate OS and one replacement for the concept of file systems)
18:26:16 <AnMaster> (invented, not actually wrote them)
18:27:13 <alise> Then acceleration, a, is
18:27:14 <alise> = v[A rel A{H^t+1}] - v[A rel A{H^t}]
18:27:14 <alise> = v[A] - v[A{H^t+1}] - v[A] - v[A{H^t}]
18:27:14 <alise> = A - AH - A{H^t+1} - A{H^t+2} - A - AH - A{H^t} - A{H^t+1}
18:27:16 <alise> = -2 AH - 2 A{H^t+1} - A{H^t+2} - A{H^t}
18:27:26 <alise> That seems a very strange result.
18:27:35 <alise> Oh, man, it /is/ the wrong way around.
18:27:41 <alise> sec, just rewriting it
18:27:45 <alise> then I'll pastie the whole thing
18:27:48 <AnMaster> alise, also where did the abs() go?
18:28:27 <zzo38> I had idea making up a new pack of cards.
18:28:30 <AnMaster> I don't believe you can get rid of all abs() quite that easily...
18:28:57 <zzo38> The case has multiple compartments, for four decks of cards, poker chips, pegs, dice, etc
18:28:57 <alise> v = (x,y)-(xH,yH).
18:28:58 <alise> s = (x,y)D(xH,yH).
18:29:27 <AnMaster> nooga, so how are you going to solve both trying to write at once?
18:29:48 <zzo38> The cards have the suit/number also written in horizontal in the right corner as well as the suit/number vertical on the left corner, so that you can see the suit even if arranged the cards in a different order
18:29:55 <AnMaster> zzo38, also it would be funnier with a comma between "poker" and "chips"
18:29:59 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:30:12 <zzo38> AnMaster: Hahahahahaha I suppose it is funny. But that's just the joke
18:30:20 <AnMaster> alise, link oerjan to our current draft...
18:30:44 <AnMaster> didn't he say he had some idea for it?
18:30:51 <nooga> Ii didn't think about the details yet but still, multiprocessor is my goal :D
18:30:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, how far did you get with that idea?
18:31:12 <zzo38> Four packs of cards, one with blue checkerboard pattern on back, one with red checkerboard pattern on back, and two with spiders on back (both identical, and also invertible).
18:31:32 <zzo38> The blue checkerboard cards and one of the spiders pack has blue dots next to the number on the front of the cards.
18:31:40 <oerjan> not very far. i was sort of hoping rule 110 was an example.
18:31:43 <nooga> probably i would need some clever piece of hardware that buffers output of units
18:31:57 <zzo38> The outside of the case is also a checkerboard, cribbage board, and with an arrow so you can keep track of who is dealer or whatever.
18:32:45 <oerjan> rule 110 has lots of gliders of various speeds, as you'd expect from a CA with relativistic features
18:33:01 <zzo38> And since the game has eight jokers in all, each joker can be differently on the front. Each deck has one black and one red joker (indicated by black/red star where the number/suit gues), and different designs on the front.
18:33:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, but was it relativistic?
18:33:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, and doesn't GOL have gliders at various speeds too?
18:33:28 <oerjan> i never found a working lorentz transformation (which would have had to be one-way btw)
18:33:33 <zzo38> Like, one joker might have one suit on each edge, one might have roman numbers I to IV on each edge, one might be V to VIII, etc. In the middle of the design, there might be reference to poker hands or whatever else might go there.
18:33:51 <oerjan> well i suppose it does
18:33:52 <zzo38> This is one way of keeping track of trump suits.
18:34:00 <zzo38> As well as other things.
18:34:02 <AnMaster> but I fail to see what such a pack is good for
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18:34:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm? what do you mean lorentz transformations?
18:34:51 <oerjan> anyway a "real" relativistic CA should have at least some working lorentz transformations
18:34:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, also how do you get time dilation in rule 110?
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18:35:05 <zzo38> There is one other thing I forgot: On each card, there is an arrow to the left of the right indicators. It is pointing upwards if you are holding the card one way, downwards if you hold the card the other way.
18:35:13 <oerjan> a lorentz transformation is the map for changing coordinates in relativity
18:35:39 <zzo38> AnMaster: I am not discussing a single pack, but rather, a case containing four decks as well as other things.
18:35:55 <AnMaster> zzo38, so a traveling gaming kit?
18:35:56 <zzo38> I called this set ULTRACARD.
18:35:58 <oerjan> once you have that, time dilation is obvious, since gliders map into different speed gliders with it
18:36:24 <zzo38> Yes, it can be travel card game, but it can be used for other things as well, even.
18:36:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think this is more advanced than what we are doing. Hope alise post that link soon
18:36:42 <zzo38> You can easily tell which are single and double packs of cards, even!
18:36:46 <alise> AnMaster: i'm rewriting it a bit, see /msg
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18:36:59 <alise> oerjan: what /we're/ doing is badly translating basic physics into CA terms
18:37:02 <oerjan> i don't even know whether a CA lorentz transformation is possible, fwiw
18:37:04 <zzo38> And many cards games might use some extra equipment, which is included here.
18:37:25 <oerjan> at least a reversible one.
18:37:29 <zzo38> Also I think my design of the jokers is improved way of design of jokers.
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18:37:54 <nooga> did you know that if you display tha CA grid from a perspective of obserfver placed on the grid and taking assumption that information travels with the speed of one square per tick
18:38:14 <nooga> you get a doppler effect when glider approaches the observer?
18:38:57 <zzo38> I don't see how, if it is not relativistic space?
18:39:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about contraction though?
18:39:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, the other special relativity effect
18:40:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: those are connected really. basically the lorentz transformation i'm thinking of is approximately a linear/affine map of one spacetime to the other, preserving the maximal speed (as in ordinary relativity)
18:40:34 <nooga> zzo38: since you add the speed of information...
18:40:57 <oerjan> from that it follows that the transformed versions of things will seem contracted and dilated
18:42:08 <oerjan> rule 110 was interesting because the maximal speed within its "ether" grid pattern is _not_ 1 as it is for the full automaton
18:42:31 <oerjan> also the ether grid pattern _looks_ sort of time shifted already
18:43:01 <oerjan> (the shortest repetition is something like 4 steps left, 1 step forward in time)
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18:44:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, also general relativity of some sort. At least I see that as a good if we get something working for special. It would be rather trivial to define gravity in any given point anyway
18:45:08 <oerjan> general relativity is immensely more complicated than special
18:46:07 <oerjan> a non-fixed spacetime is sort of the _essence_ of it, the opposite of a CA
18:46:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, well you could define alive cells to have a mass of 1, then compute "mass-something" in any given point by looking at neighbourhood with a function to reduce the importance of far-away cells
18:46:36 <soupdragon> I heard wolfram is doing some work in this area
18:46:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, shouldn't that work for finding out mass centers
18:47:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's just basic gravity, general relativity is about gravity changing spacetime
18:47:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes we get to that, but before we can get to it we need a notion of mass, no?
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18:48:35 <oerjan> you'd want a notion of mass for really doing special relativity as well
18:48:42 <alise> oerjan: I'm defining my stuff :P
18:48:44 <alise> you'll see it soon
18:48:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, well that is what I gave above?
18:49:34 <AnMaster> isn't standard model quantum mechanics?
18:50:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, so once you have this notion of mass I gave above, then you have to compute how much it deforms space time in any given point.
18:50:36 <oerjan> the standard model is special relativistic, though
18:51:11 <alise> oerjan: Here you go: http://pastie.org/961798.txt?key=srjlqknik7dtjpwunkeg We used to say a cell A and AH directly, but this abstracted particle-function notion has simplified things a lot.
18:51:18 <alise> Also, has let me used finite derivative.
18:51:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I can't see why not, as long as it is curved in a discrete way
18:51:25 <alise> It's not much, I'm basically just defining discrete trivial physics.
18:51:34 <alise> But there you go; derivatives map to finite derivatives as they should and all.
18:51:37 <alise> Make of it what you will.
18:52:08 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, by bending their path. Needs to be in discrete steps of course
18:52:17 <alise> oerjan: The rule for acceleration seems... strange.
18:52:46 <alise> GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: http://pastie.org/961798.txt?key=srjlqknik7dtjpwunkeg is the latest thing
18:52:59 <alise> Apparently the acceleration of a particle A is A(t+2) - 2 A(t+1) - A(t)
18:53:07 <alise> Where A(n) = A{H^n}
18:53:25 <alise> Starting at t=0, acceleration is AHH - 2 AH - A
18:53:50 <alise> AnMaster: {} is just lexical stuff.
18:53:59 <alise> We don't use it any more
18:54:02 <alise> it was just what I used before
18:54:06 <alise> it's now particle functions
18:54:20 <AnMaster> alise, sure we can translate this back into a CA though?
18:55:11 <alise> Let A(n) = (0,n+1). Starting at t=0, aA = (0,3) - 2 (0,2) - (0,1) = (0,3) - (0,4) - (0,1) = (0,1).
18:55:30 <alise> that does not seem quite right
18:55:35 <alise> A isn't accelerating at all
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18:56:53 <alise> aA should be (0,0)
18:57:00 <alise> because A has a constant velocity of (0,1).
18:57:56 <alise> = A(t+2) - A(t+1) - A(t+1) - A(t)
18:57:56 <alise> = A(t+2) - 2 A(t+1) - A(t)
18:58:01 <oerjan> the acceleration should be A(t+2) - 2 A(t+1) + A(t)
18:58:12 <oerjan> assuming i remember my finite differences right
18:58:16 <alise> Let A(n) = (0,n+1). vA(t) = (0,t+2) - (0,t+1) = (0,1).
18:58:19 <alise> oerjan: so I got a step wrong then
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18:58:29 <alise> Delta f(x) = f(x+1) - f(x)
18:58:40 <alise> expands to A(t+2) - A(t+1) - A(t+1) - A(t)
18:58:43 <alise> so I don't see how this is + A(t).
18:58:59 <oerjan> no, you are forgetting the -*- = + rule
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19:00:42 <pikhq> "I detected that you were trying to use your Internet service. Would you like me to help you? *unplug*"
19:01:24 <pikhq> In my Internet, dropping my packets.
19:01:53 <alise> oerjan: I have the ridiculous new derivation using your definition that A's acceleration is (0,-7)
19:01:57 <alise> Of course, I probably made another stupid error.
19:02:21 <oerjan> given that i already calculated it to be (0,0), i should think so
19:02:55 <alise> now i have it to be -1 :-)
19:03:00 <soupdragon> the mathematics taught in high school and college is fragmented, out of
19:03:27 <oerjan> aA = (0,3) - 2 (0,2) + (0,1) = 0
19:04:10 <alise> oerjan: http://pastie.org/961806.txt?key=rordooczee0nr3qggjgxnq
19:04:15 <alise> what should we call the difference of speed?
19:04:27 <alise> and then, after that, we can consider the Awful Question: how do we start getting some relativity into this base?
19:04:41 <alise> whoops i made another error
19:04:43 <alise> aA(t) = (0,t+3) - 2 (0,t+2) + (0,t+1)
19:04:43 <alise> = (0, (t+3) - (t+2) + (t+1))
19:04:48 <alise> should be 2(t+2) there of course
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19:06:36 <oerjan> you might want to write = A(t+2) - A(t+1) - A(t+1) -^H+ A(t) as = (A(t+2) - A(t+1)) - (A(t+1) - A(t)) for clarity
19:07:14 <alise> write it as the incorrect form for clarity?
19:07:27 <oerjan> no the latter is correct
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19:07:31 <pikhq_> It seems my Internet has decided to have greater instability. Wonderful.
19:07:33 <alise> I am so immensely confused now
19:07:37 <oerjan> you still have it wrong on that page though
19:07:41 <alise> oerjan: so what /should/ we call the difference of speed across generations
19:07:46 <oerjan> (the intermediate calculation)
19:08:08 <oerjan> all i know is that the derivative of acceleration is sometimes called jerk
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19:08:41 <alise> oerjan: it annoys me that velocity and speed are denoted by bold/italic function names
19:08:45 <alise> how the hell should we write that out?
19:09:56 <oerjan> vectors are sometimes bold, and measured quantities are usually italic
19:10:14 <alise> sA(t) = A(t+1) D A(t)
19:10:25 <AnMaster> alise, I always wrote vectors underlined
19:10:34 <alise> is it displacement?
19:10:48 <AnMaster> that is how I learnt to write vectors
19:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> That's because in ye times of yore you indicated bold for printers that way.
19:10:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, a newly defined operator I think
19:10:58 <alise> oerjan: taxicab distance
19:11:05 <alise> so, treat it as just distance for analogy to regular terms
19:11:50 <oerjan> well looks like as good a candidate for speed as any
19:12:15 <alise> I'm trying to analogise with standard kinematics, though
19:12:30 <alise> velocity is vector and speed is scalar...
19:12:42 <alise> I am pretty sure it is displacement
19:13:38 <oerjan> since you use 1 as your time difference most of the time
19:14:04 <alise> which would you call it?
19:14:06 <alise> speed or displacement?
19:14:16 <alise> I guess, in a way, it is speed since we can't "finite integrate" v to get s
19:15:02 <alise> http://pastie.org/961819.txt?key=esgkaovh9wc6mi1yy0sjtg
19:15:05 <alise> here is the current state of play
19:15:06 <oerjan> A(t+2) D A(t) would be a displacement with a different time interval
19:15:14 <alise> discrete, finite trivial physics
19:15:24 <alise> now we need to make it relativistic in some way
19:15:28 <alise> *cough* *pokes oerjan*
19:15:55 <oerjan> well for a start the relative velocity is completely wrong
19:16:28 <oerjan> also when doing special relativity you really want spacetime vectors
19:16:43 <alise> v(A rel B)(t) = vA(t) - vB(t)
19:16:43 <alise> = (A(t+1) - A(t)) - (B(t+1) - B(t))
19:16:49 <alise> I realised it was wrong in a different way too
19:16:53 <alise> (need to swap the + in)
19:17:18 <alise> that seems hard to adapt this to, though
19:17:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: latest: http://pastie.org/961821.txt?key=evbqznopsmamodomdr6yaa
19:19:08 <alise> oerjan: one thing I note is that we can't allow particles to be arbitrary functions
19:19:15 <alise> or we can have particles sight-seeing by blipping to random locations
19:19:24 <alise> which is why A(t+1) must be the CA-defined heir of A(t)
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19:20:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Irrelevant.
19:20:38 <alise> The CA must define neighbourhoods, and successors based on these neighbourhoods.
19:20:43 <alise> Note that only alive particles have heirs and the like.
19:20:46 <alise> Dead particles are just vacuum.
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19:26:09 <Phantom_Hoover> What are spacetime vectors? A 3D vector with time being one of the components.
19:27:41 <alise> I wonder what physics we can define for CAs using these definitions already.
19:27:56 <oerjan> now the spacetime distance between (x1,y1,t1) and (x2,y2,t2) is ((x1,y1)D(y1,y2))^2 - (t1-t2)^2
19:28:12 <oerjan> might put in a c there if it's not 1
19:28:26 <oerjan> also i'm not sure if taxicab distance in space is a good thing
19:28:39 <oerjan> we certainly cannot use for the whole of spacetime, i think
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19:32:15 <oerjan> um well if there is a taxicab relativity i don't know about it :D
19:33:27 <oerjan> hm well i guess the problem is that taxicab metrics have very few invariant transformations
19:34:03 <alise> i wasn't the one who thought of using taxicab
19:34:06 <oerjan> you basically _have_ to map an axis to an axis
19:35:22 <alise> oerjan: so we should use Euclidean distance?
19:35:28 <alise> but it requires reals...
19:35:32 <alise> we don't /have/ reals
19:35:49 <oerjan> oh i forgot a square root up there
19:36:09 <oerjan> however if we _don't_ take the square root, we don't need reals
19:36:24 <alise> oerjan: dose that ... work?
19:37:22 <alise> (a,b) D (c,d) = sqrt((a - c)^2 + (b - d)^2)
19:37:24 <alise> so you are proposing
19:37:26 <alise> (a,b) D (c,d) = (a - c)^2 + (b - d)^2
19:37:30 <alise> does this even make any sense???
19:38:04 <alise> oerjan: i mean, let's put it this way, we at least need an abs around the whole thing
19:38:08 <alise> (a,b) D (c,d) = |(a - c)^2 + (b - d)^2|
19:38:19 <AnMaster> <alise> i wasn't the one who thought of using taxicab <-- I suggested taxicab as an alternative iirc. Plus it allowed us to have integer distances
19:38:21 <oerjan> erm it's always positive
19:38:30 <alise> granted. now explain how on earth it makes sense
19:38:35 <AnMaster> alise, I also mentioned that we could do straight line
19:38:56 <oerjan> ok it doesn't make sense, satisfied? ;D
19:39:01 <AnMaster> alise, but that was shot down iirc by you or Phantom_Hoover for not doing integer
19:39:03 <alise> oerjan: no but could we use it as a metric?
19:39:28 <oerjan> we want the metric to preserve scalar multiplication, i should think
19:39:52 <oerjan> multiplication with a scalar
19:40:17 <alise> there clearly needs to be an Online Repository of Distance Metrics.
19:40:23 <oerjan> anyway even if our coordinates are integers, our distances don't have to be
19:40:48 <alise> or at least rationals
19:41:05 <alise> because one, it'd be nice to compute this, and two, it does not make sense to travel a real distance in discrete space!!
19:42:39 <oerjan> well i don't know how this should work anyway, except that there should be _some_ lorentz transformations ;)
19:42:57 <alise> anyway (a - c)^2 + (b - d)^2 isn't even a distance metric
19:43:02 <alise> it doesn't obey the triangle equality
19:44:01 <alise> we're talking about (a,b)D(c,d) here
19:44:01 <soupdragon> so what's a counter-example to the triangle law?
19:44:31 <alise> ok um actually i just used the wrong mathematica command to try and decide it :D
19:46:30 <alise> In[26]:= ForAll[{x0, x1, y0, y1, z0, z1},
19:46:31 <alise> dist[{x0, x1}, {z0, z1}] <=
19:46:31 <alise> dist[{x0, x1}, {y0, y1}] + dist[{y0, y1}, {z0, z1}]]
19:46:31 <alise> \*SubscriptBox[\(\[ForAll]\), \({x0, x1, y0, y1, z0, z1}\)]\(
19:46:32 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((x0 - z0)\), \(2\)] +
19:46:34 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((x1 - z1)\), \(2\)] <=
19:46:36 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((x0 - y0)\), \(2\)] +
19:46:38 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((x1 - y1)\), \(2\)] +
19:46:40 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((y0 - z0)\), \(2\)] +
19:46:42 <alise> \*SuperscriptBox[\((y1 - z1)\), \(2\)]\)\)
19:46:44 <alise> In[27]:= Resolve[%, Integers]
19:46:53 <oerjan> (0,0)D(1,0) = 1, (1,0)D(2,0) = 1, (0,0)D(2,0) = 4 Q.E.D.
19:47:12 <alise> what mathematica is saying soupdragon is that /no/ pairs obey that law :-D
19:47:44 <oerjan> um that's incorrect, (0,0), (1,0) and (1,1) do obey it
19:47:52 <alise> # The British Rail metric (also called the Post Office metric or the SNCF metric) on a normed vector space is given by d(x, y) = ||x|| + ||y|| for distinct points x and y, and d(x, x) = 0. More generally ||.|| can be replaced with a function f taking an arbitrary set S to non-negative reals and taking the value 0 at most once: then the metric is defined on S by d(x, y)=f(x)+f(y) for distinct points x and y, and d(x, x) = 0. The name alludes to the tendency
19:47:52 <alise> of railway journeys (or letters) to proceed via London (or Paris) irrespective of their final destination.
19:47:54 <alise> Let's use that, then! :P
19:48:00 <alise> oerjan: well mathematica is dumb
19:48:56 <oerjan> also unreadable *ducks*
19:49:16 <alise> well the output text was obviously rendered more nicely on screen...
19:49:51 <oerjan> rail metric = taxicab, surely
19:50:43 <alise> taxicab(p,q) = ||p-q||_1
19:50:53 <alise> rail(p,q) = ||p||+||q|| if p<>q; 0 otherwise
19:50:59 <ws> rail metric could be 'river metric' I guess
19:51:08 <alise> of course the rail metric is ever so slightly ridiculous
19:51:24 <ws> no, wrong again, it's not the river one
19:51:57 <alise> oerjan: Clearly what we need to define is finite square root.
19:52:34 <oerjan> well we did use floor(sqrt(x)) in a previous discussion recently
19:52:47 <alise> Pah, that's like saying the ... floor... of the derivative is the finite derivative.
19:53:50 <alise> oerjan: How's this for a distance metric, (a,b)D(c,d) = |(a-c)*(b-d)|
19:54:03 <alise> Note: May not actually obey any relevant laws
19:55:06 <ws> what is it that you're looking for, btw.?
19:55:22 <ws> a metric on Z^2 with values in Z+?
19:55:48 <oerjan> it just doesn't really work for the purpose :D
19:56:05 <oerjan> another one btw is max(|a-c|,|b-d|)
19:56:16 <AnMaster> I went away for a bit and we had screens and screens of stuff :P
19:56:26 <oerjan> (corresponding to L^infinity like taxicab corresponds to L^1)
19:56:37 <alise> ws: that we can do relativity with nicely
19:56:55 <alise> oerjan: so /does/ |(a-c)*(b-d)| violate any laws? :D
19:57:25 <oerjan> THE UNIVERSE _IS_ A GIANT SQUARE CA DAMMIT AND WE'LL PROVE IT BY SQUEEZING RELATIVITY INTO IT
19:57:40 <oerjan> alise: almost certainly
19:57:44 <alise> and quantum mechanics ... (... eep)
19:57:54 <alise> [oerjan runs away screaming]
19:58:11 <ws> alise: it zeroes too much ;-)
19:58:14 <oerjan> (ANY PROBLEMS WITH DIMENSION WILL BE SOLVED VIA THE HOLOGRAPHIC PRINCIPLE)
19:58:25 <alise> ws: you zero too much!
19:58:38 <ws> alise: a metric should zero iff these pairs are equal
19:59:14 <oerjan> yes, miraculously absolute value distributes over multiplication
19:59:23 <alise> oerjan: SHUT UP :D
19:59:31 <alise> i'm in silly mode not think mode
19:59:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: WE HAVE NO CLUE
20:00:04 <alise> ok what about floor(|a-c|/|b-d| + |b-d|/|a-c|)
20:00:12 <alise> where x/0 is defined to be, uh, 0
20:00:19 <AnMaster> <alise> and quantum mechanics ... (... eep) <-- can we do that after we got general relativity done?
20:00:24 <alise> AnMaster: PROBABLY NOT
20:00:30 <AnMaster> which we will do after we have special relativity done
20:00:39 <AnMaster> alise, ah, so we won't ever get there?
20:00:53 <alise> considering that "discrete quantum mechanics" is the most hilarious lunacy ever dreamt of
20:01:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well. many worlds!
20:01:19 <alise> SPACE IS FOUR-DIMENSIONAL, FOUR-SIDED CELLULAR AUTOMATON; ONE SIDE IS TIME
20:01:29 <alise> AND THE OTHERS EXPERIENCE TIME-EFFECTS FROM IT
20:01:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: It's nondeterministic as to which world we go into.
20:01:35 <alise> TIME CUBE IS DISCRETE QUANTUM MECHANICS WTF
20:01:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: just list them all :D
20:02:16 <alise> soupdragon: but time cube is!
20:02:20 <alise> and time cube IS platonic space!
20:02:34 <oerjan> hey discrete quantum mechanics is not that lunatic, spin operators are discrete after all iirc
20:03:18 <AnMaster> alise, you want discrete string theory
20:03:19 <alise> a /very/ small fourth dimension :D
20:03:23 <AnMaster> which I think is a contradiction
20:03:35 <alise> Discrete... string... theory?
20:03:37 <AnMaster> it is way above my head, string theory I mean
20:03:38 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: may be his discovery, i don't recall
20:03:40 <alise> So are the strings just badly interpolated lines?
20:04:08 <soupdragon> if your string theory claims 11 or 26 dimensions then sorry but it's _Wrong_
20:04:12 <alise> soupdragon: I see; your proof?
20:04:19 <AnMaster> soupdragon, where is your proof of this
20:04:23 <alise> Or is this along the lines of your amazing proof "Plants grow; therefore god exists".
20:04:30 <alise> (if anyone wasn't there: I'm not exaggerating, he said exactly this)
20:04:55 <soupdragon> can you build a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect? No you can't QED
20:05:04 <oerjan> discrete string theory would be like little rosaries, right...
20:05:23 <alise> soupdragon: OH MY WORD! All the string physicists missed that completely!
20:05:26 <alise> I'll tell them right now
20:05:31 <alise> Just did so, they've decided to abandon it
20:05:35 <alise> How did they miss that?
20:05:56 <soupdragon> ^ since he can't form a valid counterrargument...
20:06:27 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so what does the self-intersection of Klein bottles have to do with the number of space dimensions?
20:06:34 <oerjan> count-err-arguments, the most common type on the internet
20:07:28 <alise> soupdragon really believes he has disproved string theory in the strongest sense by stating "you can't build a klein bottle that doesn't intersect"
20:07:34 <alise> ladies and gentlemen, we are witnessing true insanity
20:07:46 <soupdragon> ladies and gentlemen, we are witnessing ad hominem
20:07:53 <oerjan> well either that or true (but lousy) trolling
20:08:02 <soupdragon> since you know I'm right, but you can't admit defeat you're just doing this
20:08:20 <alise> you are funny soupdragon, i think you would make a fun pet
20:08:23 <alise> like i could go around saying things
20:08:28 <alise> and you'd always make me laugh by saying something incomprehensible
20:08:38 <soupdragon> study the topology of klien bottle i fyou don't understand my proof
20:08:39 <alise> that is what pets are for
20:09:09 <AnMaster> <soupdragon> can you build a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect? No you can't QED <-- not with current technology
20:09:17 <AnMaster> which isn't same as "in theory"
20:09:22 <soupdragon> AnMaster, not with any technology ever -- it's a fundametal fact of the universe
20:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> soupdragon: State, concisely, why the self-intersection of a Klein bottle precludes there being more than 3 space dimensions?
20:09:57 <alise> AnMaster: well what you are saying does not make much sense.
20:10:03 <alise> AnMaster: but that is not why he is wrong
20:10:31 <soupdragon> The smallest number of dimensions you can immerse a klien bottle in is 4
20:10:45 <alise> THE CALABI-YAU MANIFOLD IS EDUCATED EVIL
20:10:51 <AnMaster> soupdragon, ever heard of flatland?
20:11:29 <oerjan> soupdragon: incorrect, the klein bottle can be immersed in 3 dimensions
20:11:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_(mathematics)
20:11:46 <Phantom_Hoover> We can't construct non-intersecting Klein bottles, so we can't have 4D spacce.
20:11:59 <soupdragon> oh yes oerjan, that's right I used the wrong word
20:14:04 <soupdragon> it should be easy to see that the self intersection can be remedied by pulling that handle out through 4D
20:14:15 <soupdragon> topologically you can prove this is not possible in jsut 3D
20:14:43 <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect
20:16:31 <oerjan> the rest of the sentence disappeared into the 23rd dimension
20:16:46 <alise> `addquote <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists
20:16:48 <HackEgo> 159|<soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists
20:16:53 <alise> Insanity too amazing not to preserve.
20:17:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Look, soupdragon, if you can't see why you're wrong, I can't be bothered.
20:17:23 <soupdragon> Phantom_Hoover, I give up.. what's the fourth dimension?
20:17:30 <alise> Firstly, the repeated misspelling of Klein; secondly, the patently incorrect application of burden of proof; and thirdly, jesus christ on a freaking pogo stick man.
20:18:09 <soupdragon> umm invisible dragon in the garage much?
20:18:22 <alise> soupdragon: you do realise that burden of proof NEVER implies anything is false?
20:18:29 <alise> just that we don't have to consider it? you stated it was /false/ outright
20:18:39 <alise> we can make predictions about these spaces with a coherent theory of them
20:18:44 <alise> it's just that we can't decide on one :-)
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20:20:58 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:21:20 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:21:28 <HackEgo> 97|<fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy) :) smileys)
20:21:43 <HackEgo> 66|<Aftran> It looks like my hairs are too fat. Can you help me split them?
20:23:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:23:29 <HackEgo> 77|<ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
20:23:50 <oerjan> fortunately it was a first floor window.
20:23:52 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.19787 \ wunderbar_emporium
20:24:26 <oerjan> Deewiant: YOU STINKING LIAR
20:24:45 <oerjan> also, i may have meant basement.
20:24:53 <oerjan> or is that ground floor
20:24:54 <Deewiant> If the quote'd been any longer it'd've clarified that
20:25:24 <HackEgo> * the lowermost portion of a structure partly or wholly below ground level; often used for storage \ * the ground floor facade or interior in Renaissance architecture \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
20:25:40 <oerjan> i guess jumping out a basement window would not be that impressive.
20:25:53 <oerjan> or maybe it would, just in the wrong kind of way.
20:27:03 <oerjan> nah you'd be swallowed by the black hole in the center.
20:27:34 <oerjan> the one at the center of the earth
20:27:40 <AnMaster> okay I went away for another bit
20:27:50 <AnMaster> so what did you end up with for the CA?
20:28:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Which log has soupdragon saying that plants growing proves God?
20:28:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not sure
20:28:30 <alise> use "grep --crazy"
20:28:59 <oerjan> `addquote <alise> use "grep --crazy"
20:29:03 <HackEgo> 160|<alise> use "grep --crazy"
20:30:11 <alise> about 50 megs because of minimum file size iirc
20:31:00 <AnMaster> alise, well you don't download a block of zeros
20:31:05 <AnMaster> and that is the important bit here
20:31:11 <AnMaster> you only download actual file size
20:31:17 <alise> Let Delta^h f(x) = (f(x+h) - f(x))/h.
20:31:17 <AnMaster> sure on disk it will be larger
20:31:37 <alise> Let Delta^Sigma f(x) = lim k->inf (sum h=0 to k, Delta^h f(x))/k
20:31:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, create a fake robots.txt and tell wget to not refetch files
20:31:52 <alise> then Delta^Sigma -- I'll abbreviate DS --
20:32:04 -!- ws has quit (Quit: [BX] Been around the world and found that only stupid people are breeding.).
20:32:07 <alise> DS (x^2) = infinity
20:32:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, just download Gregor's hg repo with the logs in
20:32:45 <AnMaster> he will love you wasting his bw like that
20:33:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I could grep my logs, which go back about a year (older archives on cd)
20:33:13 <alise> lim k->inf (2^x log(2) - i 2^x (-i H_k - i 2^(k+1) Phi(2,1,k+1) + pi))/k
20:33:25 <AnMaster> it will take a while because it is lzma compressed (or bzip2 for older ones)
20:33:25 <alise> So, yeah, I think it's safe to coin DS "Fucked-Up Derivative".
20:33:38 <alise> Or, Limit Sum Derivative; LSD.
20:33:54 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what phrase should I grep on?
20:34:08 <alise> AnMaster: grep plant | grep grow
20:34:23 <alise> grep plant 10.* | grep grow
20:34:31 <pikhq_> A "mere" 21% packet loss, but I can't get any freaking Internet connectivity.
20:34:44 <pikhq_> Anyone got an IP over ICMP tunneling scheme?
20:34:57 <AnMaster> alise, no relevant hits from 2010
20:35:04 <alise> The LSD of (-1^x) = 0
20:35:17 <AnMaster> that is, just uorygl oklopol and fax
20:35:18 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
20:35:23 <alise> AnMaster: fax = soupdragon
20:35:36 <AnMaster> 2010-05-01/01_freenode-#esoteric.log.gz:apr 25 14:36:31 <fax>watch a plant grow: You have witnessed it
20:35:36 <AnMaster> 2010-05-01/01_freenode-#esoteric.log.gz:apr 25 14:50:08 <fax>oklopol: I can prove god exists: You can see a plant grow
20:35:37 <alise> <alise> Let Delta^h f(x) = (f(x+h) - f(x))/h.
20:35:37 <pikhq> And no, not making that up. Anyone got an IP over ICMP tunneling scheme handy?
20:35:37 <alise> <alise> Let Delta^Sigma f(x) = lim k->inf (sum h=0 to k, Delta^h f(x))/k
20:35:44 <alise> Delta^Sigma is the LSD, Limit Sigma Derivative.
20:35:46 <lament> Objectivism states that "Existence exists" and "Existence is Identity." To be is to be "an entity of a specific nature made of specific attributes." That which has no attributes does not and cannot exist. Hence, the axiom of identity: a thing is what it is.
20:36:00 <alise> LSD (x^2) = undefined
20:36:05 <alise> LSD (2^x) = lim k->inf (2^x log(2) - i 2^x (-i H_k - i 2^(k+1) Phi(2,1,k+1) + pi))/k
20:36:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, note: dates there are either UTC or CET/CEST
20:36:32 <alise> I suspect LSD (2^x) is undefined
20:36:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so it may be one day off compared to clog
20:36:37 <alise> but like hell am i gonna work it out
20:36:46 <AnMaster> can't be arsed to calculate which direction
20:36:54 <oerjan> lament: that fit quite well into the surrounding insanity
20:37:51 <alise> what kind of LSD is this!
20:37:59 <oerjan> the kind that reduces INT
20:38:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it says in that line
20:38:54 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, the logs are rotated monthly
20:39:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, "<AnMaster> 2010-05-01/01_freenode-#esoteric.log.gz:apr 25 14:36:31 <fax> watch a plant grow: You have witnessed it" <-- "apr 25"
20:39:31 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I think it is Swedish date format for some unknown reason
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20:40:37 <alise> <oerjan> the kind that reduces INT
20:40:39 <alise> what did you mean here :P
20:41:08 <AnMaster> alise, well if you reduce INT you would end up with NAT I guess
20:41:15 <oerjan> it was a pun attempt on integration and intelligence
20:41:35 <oerjan> slightly roleplaying inspired
20:41:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, I was just about to ask about that yeah
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20:42:55 <alise> it's funny how... silly LSD is.
20:43:05 <alise> I mean, the results seem almost random.
20:43:42 <Deewiant> Psychedelic drugs are like that
20:43:50 <alise> But it's just A = (f(x+1)-f(x) / 1) + (f(x+2)-f(x) / 2) + (f(x+3)-f(x) / 3) + ...
20:44:03 <alise> then basically the limit as k->inf of k terms of A / k
20:44:12 <alise> I guess it's because it's the difference "in the large"
20:45:56 <Gregor> AnMaster: Sorry, my home computer (and so my logging) is down :P
20:48:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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20:48:41 <Gregor> Anyway, hg clone https://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ if you'd like.
20:48:45 <Gregor> It'll be a while though :P
20:48:55 <Gregor> Once I do that myself, I'll update them to today.
20:51:24 <alise> I was writing a script to keep a log archive up-to-date, rename files to YYYY-MM-DD, and make the times UTC (including wrapping to other files)
20:51:30 <alise> But I got bored at the wrapping-to-files bit.
20:52:10 <Gregor> There, it's up to date.
20:52:33 <Gregor> Erm, it will be once I hg push :P
20:52:39 <Gregor> Now what silly username/password did I use here >_>
20:52:49 <fizzie> My personal logs are in a PostgreSQL database, but they're not quite as comprehensive.
20:53:04 <oerjan> Gregor: "snugglebunnies"
20:53:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:54:01 <Gregor> 10.02.13:21:12:29 <oerjan> `google snugglebunnies
20:55:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:55:20 * oerjan thought for a moment Gregor had somehow utterly failed to give HackEgo a command
20:55:42 <Gregor> No, just snugglebunny-grepping :P
20:55:56 <Gregor> <somebody> I'll grep YOUR snugglebunny
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20:57:26 <oerjan> that doesn't really make sense with an _actual_ innuendo, does it.
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21:00:33 <AnMaster> I mean it doesn't make sense but why is that an issue
21:00:40 <oerjan> because the whole point is to point out an unintended innuendo
21:00:46 <AnMaster> alise, gave up on the relativistic CA yet?
21:01:23 <alise> Its velocity is 0!
21:01:58 <AnMaster> alise, link to last version though?
21:02:30 <alise> http://pastie.org/961891.txt?key=iqkvno8jakp5xeyub3mkq
21:02:38 <alise> oerjan: and sqrt(0) (not 0!)
21:02:52 <oerjan> why of course, 0! is 1
21:03:16 <oerjan> why do you think i carefully added spaces
21:04:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
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21:06:06 <alise> http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-02-04-beartato-popcorn.gif
21:07:47 <oerjan> the attack of the killer zombie maize
21:08:10 <alise> (Suggested dessert: http://nedroid.com/imagesb/beartato-ridiculousbeliefsb.gif)
21:12:01 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:12:13 <oerjan> yeah everyone knows the earth revolves around me!
21:12:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:13:16 <alise> clearly we just need to bend the grid in funny ways.
21:13:17 <oerjan> (that was about the "No, me!" not the cas.)
21:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: How does the concept of curvature apply to discrete spacetime?
21:14:10 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:14:12 <alise> it doesn't, we bend the image on screen
21:14:32 <oerjan> you mean we bend the screen
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21:20:11 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> CAS. LET US RELATIVISE THEM. <-- what? Relativistic computer algebra systems?
21:20:24 <oerjan> that might also be cool.
21:20:30 * augur pounces soupdragon
21:20:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh did you mean CAs?
21:21:05 <nooga> i'd like to be an artist and paint pictures
21:21:07 <augur> hows it goooin soup?
21:21:48 <soupdragon> jutst watching quantum physics on youtube
21:22:57 <oerjan> augur: i am not entirely sure if soupdragon is a master troll or if alise is a master at being (or pretending to be) trolled
21:23:17 <augur> oerjan: meh. i dont care. soup has some interesting in theoretical linguistics
21:23:27 <alise> hey i've been laughing at him not getting angry
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21:23:38 <alise> Aww, a budding romance.
21:23:55 <alise> I hope augur is a proponent of the three-dimensions-ONLY plants-imply-God theory.
21:24:11 <AnMaster> soupdragon, ah you need a converter box? Like between dvi/vga or usb/serial
21:24:13 <alise> Hell, I'm sure you could square the circle
21:24:18 <oerjan> clearly _four_-dimension plants would be the work of the devil
21:24:35 <augur> what? she said square ped
21:25:12 <alise> `addquote * augur rubs alise's bum [...] <augur> what? she said square ped <augur> :|
21:25:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:25:17 <HackEgo> 161|* augur rubs alise's bum [...] <augur> what? she said square ped <augur> :|
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21:26:02 <soupdragon> I really have no clue what this guy is talking about.. somethign to do with molecular configuartions
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21:26:57 <augur> im reading a book called Anarchy Works
21:28:02 <alise> AnMaster: Maybe it's like Microsoft Works.
21:28:11 <oerjan> hm wiktionary has only the plural meaning
21:28:14 <alise> (But I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss anarchy with a "doubt".)
21:28:22 <augur> its a pretty good book
21:28:25 <augur> and it has no copyright
21:28:40 <alise> Fishes, are also not copyrighted.
21:28:52 <AnMaster> alise, well, the issue with it is bullies. Well.. one of the issues
21:29:02 <AnMaster> basically anarchy is nice utopia sure
21:29:06 <alise> The issue with communism is people won't come to work!
21:29:14 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm wiktionary doesn't have aster except as a broken link from the english
21:29:14 <alise> You can make bad critiques of incredibly naive versions of ANY theory.
21:29:16 <AnMaster> alise, one of the issues maybe
21:29:31 <alise> The issue with capitalism is that corporations will just go around KILLING everyone for PROFIT!
21:29:36 <oerjan> it has astra though, which is stars
21:29:40 <augur> AnMaster: you should read this book
21:29:42 <alise> I'll repeat again: <alise> You can make bad critiques of incredibly naive versions of ANY theory.
21:29:55 <AnMaster> alise, you said this yourself some time ago though
21:30:13 <augur> the point of it is to go through example after example of why anarchy /can/ work and /can/ be stable
21:30:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: -a plural would normally be neuter... but aster doesn't look neuter. and wiktionary gives no gender.
21:31:46 <oerjan> the original greek is masculine and has no -a (or alpha) in sight
21:31:49 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AE%CF%81
21:32:29 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:32:44 * oerjan doesn't know greek grammar
21:33:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: anyway i was just mangling two latin phrases together
21:33:24 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:35:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh hm it can _also_ be neuter in greek, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF%CE%BD
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21:36:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/astrum
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21:45:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I think it would be better to redefine the speed of light in Life as c/1.
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21:46:13 <alise> So that gliders move at lightspeed?
21:46:16 <pikhq> s|c/1|c/2|, you mean.
21:46:18 <alise> Moving at lightspeed shouldn't be possible.
21:46:59 <pikhq> Hmm. Seem to recall a "faster-than-lightspeed" hack. :P
21:48:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Given that there are theoretical ways for us to go FTL if there is already infrastructure in place, it seems appropriate.
21:48:42 <alise> Nothing can go /faster/.
21:48:51 <alise> But nothing should go /as fast/, except light; and GoL has no light, or at least it is implicit.
21:48:59 <alise> So it should be c/3.
21:49:10 <alise> pikhq: It doesn't work; it's an illusion.
21:49:25 <alise> augur: is that book ancap?
21:49:29 <alise> or regular anarchism
21:49:32 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, that's called scare quotes.
21:50:22 <augur> alise: it's probably more socialist anarchism but its got a fairly broad array of ideas. one of its examples is of this multinational corporation that runs on strong anti-authoritarian principles
21:50:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:50:45 <alise> Corporations are a kind of authority, really.
21:50:59 -!- alise has left (?).
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21:51:23 <alise> <augur> alise: it's probably more socialist anarchism but its got a fairly broad array of ideas. one of its examples is of this multinational corporation that runs on strong anti-authoritarian principles
21:51:23 <alise> * augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
21:51:23 <alise> <alise> Corporations are a kind of authority, really.
21:51:34 <augur> oh they are, definitely
21:51:48 <augur> but that wasnt the point of the example :p
21:52:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: iirc the c/2 limit for life is only for _spaceships_. chaotic disturbances like long lines can travel at c proper.
21:52:13 <augur> there's also certainly quite a bit anti-capitalist rhetoric, but it's aimed towwards capitalism qua contemporary evils of capitalism
21:52:24 <alise> augur: Was the corporation in question presented as a co-operative?
21:52:27 <augur> not capitalism qua individualist free association sort of markets
21:52:35 <alise> That's the least authoritarian form of corporation I know; and it works in practice.
21:52:53 <pikhq> oerjan: Yup, seen that, and not even as a hack.
21:53:07 <augur> alise: no, its Gore and Associates, a fluoropolymer R&D/manufacturing company
21:53:25 <alise> (Evidence: http://hcoop.net/, http://tech.coop/, and, oh, one of the biggest supermarkets/"other stuffs" in Britain.)
21:53:31 <alise> augur: oh, I thought it was a hypothetical
21:53:45 <augur> thats the intent of the example
21:53:56 <alise> Co-operatives are awesome, incidentally.
21:53:57 <augur> its a real corporation that does real corporation stuff but has no hierarchical management
21:54:09 <augur> the whole book is nothing but examples of anarchy working
21:54:16 <augur> for all the things people say it cant work for
21:55:01 <alise> YOU COULDN'T SHOWER WITHOUT AUTHORITY
21:55:38 <alise> pikhq: use EgoBot as a proxy
21:55:56 * pikhq wants bandwidth not measured in bits per second
22:00:33 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> s/c/1/c/2/ <-- broken
22:01:51 -!- coppro has joined.
22:02:25 <alise> Also known as coppro.
22:03:51 <pikhq> awehsddns;klfgbhhdssbjsdhfjkosadhnjvbkoxfncjh;
22:04:09 <uorygl> Yeah, now that I think of it, that does look like the Greek word "kopros".
22:04:15 <pikhq> DAMMIT GIVE ME MORE THAN 5 PACKETTS PER SECOND
22:04:28 <uorygl> Number of packets doesn't really matter as long as they're big enough.
22:04:49 <pikhq> uorygl: Except that packets can't be big enough.
22:04:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: just some shit
22:05:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, and you said modem was slower?
22:05:16 <uorygl> Yes, it means poop or crap or shit or dung or feces or excrement or BM.
22:05:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: In the past, it was.
22:05:32 <alise> oerjan: nothing /exceeds/ c in GoL though right? :D
22:05:39 <alise> there's no pathological pattern :-P
22:05:46 <pikhq> Currently, semaphore would be faster.
22:05:46 <uorygl> Manure, there's another word.
22:05:51 <oerjan> alise: erm of course not
22:05:55 <alise> oerjan: i was joking
22:06:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, is it really 5 packets per second?
22:06:29 <AnMaster> I think that is still slower than semaphore
22:06:42 <uorygl> pikhq: packets can be arbitrarily large in IPv6!
22:06:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: *Less* currently.
22:06:47 <oerjan> alise: hm could be fun to put that as an easter egg in a gol program
22:06:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, since a packet can contain a lot more than one bit
22:06:53 <pikhq> uorygl: Pity I don't have IPv6!
22:07:00 <oerjan> say, a pacman pattern really speeding along
22:07:06 <AnMaster> uorygl, it is still limited by physical MTU isn't it?
22:07:27 <uorygl> I should learn what MTU is.
22:07:38 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_transmission_unit
22:07:41 <alise> oerjan: hey can we use chaotic lines and stuff to do >c/2 communication in GoL?
22:07:46 <alise> you don't /have/ to use gliders to communicate, surely
22:08:10 <AnMaster> alise, the issue with doing communication with them is that they are, uh, chaotic
22:08:15 <uorygl> You don't have to use gliders to communicate, but with the appropriate GoL program, gliders are as fast as anything.
22:08:20 <alise> well they're not /that/ chaotic
22:08:24 <alise> uorygl: not in-universe
22:08:45 <uorygl> Well, do we really care about in-universe speed?
22:08:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Are there any =c?
22:08:53 <AnMaster> alise, there are space fillers too, they are faster iirc?
22:09:04 <alise> AnMaster: they fill space at c/4 or something
22:09:06 <pikhq> uorygl: It's the only meaningful notion of speed *in* Game of Life!
22:09:10 <alise> but we don't need to fill space
22:09:13 <alise> we need to communicate
22:09:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wut
22:09:20 <Phantom_Hoover> And there's a blip which travels through an agar at c.
22:09:21 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh yeah!
22:09:38 <alise> No, but I can get it in a pinch.
22:09:59 <uorygl> An agar is a pattern that tiles the entire plane.
22:10:32 <AnMaster> uorygl, I mean, a regular pattern of *** would fit it then
22:10:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, the one I mentioned?
22:11:06 <uorygl> There's not too much reason not to consider that an agar.
22:11:09 <AnMaster> too tired to work out minimum distance
22:11:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So you clearly know a bit about GoL, huh.
22:11:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so why doesn't it count ... it seems strange
22:11:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What is the lightspeed telegraph?
22:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a system that sends a signal along a stretched, regular line of beehives at C.
22:12:35 <alise> plenty of things move =c in life
22:12:40 <alise> and others merely >c/2
22:12:47 <alise> well not move, but have effects at
22:12:48 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:48 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:48 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:48 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:49 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:49 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:49 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU
22:12:50 <AnMaster> alise, what about non-cardinal gliders? don't they move faster than cardinal ones? Or was that for space ships
22:12:52 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:52 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:52 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:53 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:53 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:53 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:53 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU
22:12:54 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:54 <soupdragon> FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC
22:12:56 <alise> soupdragon is seriously fucking unstable
22:13:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you job as an op there please :)
22:13:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
22:13:08 <alise> seriously just ban her until she, I don't know, stops being crazy???
22:13:14 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*quantum@unaffiliated/fax.
22:13:20 <alise> like maybe a notch down from completely crazy would do
22:13:22 <alise> AnMaster: transgender
22:13:53 <alise> she's not the first transgendered person we've had here...
22:14:03 <pikhq> This boot, I have gotten 5.4 MiB of data.
22:14:03 <alise> although the other wasn't here for very long iirc
22:14:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what is the lightspeed telegraphhh
22:14:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a system that sends a signal along a stretched, regular line of beehives at C.
22:15:10 <alise> AnMaster: so what does "whatever" mean
22:15:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And I take it is impossible to have any c communication without a wire by definition.
22:15:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so why doesn't that pattern I suggested count as an agar?
22:15:42 <alise> AnMaster: I don't understand what you were trying to say.
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22:16:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I take it that Eric Weisstein's Treature Trove of the Game of Life is not the most up-to-date infosource?
22:16:08 <alise> It doesn't have the lightspeed telegraph.
22:16:21 -!- cahill has joined.
22:16:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I can imagine a really long superstring would transmit through vacuum, but it'd destroy your transmitter and probably the receiver, too.
22:16:42 <uorygl> AnMaster: because the definition of an agar excludes it.
22:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> There isn't really a central reference source, though LifeWiki is OK.
22:16:57 <AnMaster> uorygl, oh? how is it defined then
22:17:26 <uorygl> Something like "a pattern that tiles the plane and is not just a bunch of wicks or oscillators that don't interact".
22:17:47 <AnMaster> uorygl, it could be a static pattern, didn't Phantom_Hoover say that?
22:18:02 <uorygl> My definition doesn't exclude static patterns.
22:18:43 <AnMaster> uorygl, is the pattern allowed to extend itself, like a space-filler?
22:18:44 * cahill Discounts!! Our Special Limited Time Offers Up To May,22!!!New BranD!! Notebooks,Plasma and LCD TV's.Buy your electronic needs at our unique prices. Laptop Sony VAIO VGN-FW590FFD-575,57$!!!Apple MacBook Air MC234LL/A-695,27$!!! http://www.elplace.com/
22:18:45 -!- cahill has quit (K-Lined).
22:19:11 <uorygl> A wick is something that's periodic in one dimension only.
22:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> And practical diagonal transmission at C is still elusive.
22:20:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how are the known ones impractical?
22:20:50 <uorygl> There's always the one-cell fuse. :P
22:21:08 <uorygl> Known c diagonal transmitters.
22:21:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you can transmit stuff at c diagonally, but the wire is destroyed.
22:21:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: link to something about the lightspeed telegraph?
22:22:06 <alise> I love the Game of Life it's so rich
22:22:06 <uorygl> Well, here's the lightspeed wire, which might be the same thing: http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lightspeed_wire
22:22:16 <uorygl> It's a theorem that it's infinitely rich. :P
22:22:39 <alise> yeah but it's like
22:22:46 <alise> there are so many human-interesting-and-comprehendable interacting patterns
22:22:48 <alise> from such simple rules
22:22:50 <alise> and they're so pretty
22:22:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Jason Summers made it, and I think the LST is referenced in an article in the LW article.
22:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/lightspeed/index.html
22:24:01 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:24:24 <alise> or rather, i see tons of them
22:25:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yeah cardinal as in befunge
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22:25:40 <AnMaster> don't remember the difference between them
22:25:46 <uorygl> BEST SIGNAL EVER: http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/lightspeed/tags.gif
22:26:03 <alise> has anyone made some sort of theory of physics for GoL?
22:26:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, couldn't you have lightspeed-mostly wires btw?
22:26:27 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, as in, non-lightspeed only for turning corners and at the endpoints
22:26:33 <uorygl> alise: well, after studying it for a while, I've discovered that the entire Game of Life universe can be described by a few simple rules.
22:26:36 <AnMaster> but lightspeed for straight stretches
22:26:38 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:26:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, see what I mean?
22:26:43 <Sgeo> Why wasn't this on autojoin?
22:26:56 <Gregor> uorygl: Sarcasm is sarcastic.
22:26:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, should be reasonable enough I find
22:27:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Life signal circuitry in general is bloody complicated.
22:27:39 <alise> uorygl: No shit. :P
22:27:43 <alise> But I mean, something that builds on top of that.
22:27:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I quite prefer wireworld myself
22:27:50 <alise> To describe what "movement" is, since the primitive notions have none.
22:27:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Everything needs to be *exact*, or else it all blows up.
22:27:55 <AnMaster> found it a very interesting CA
22:28:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and not quite as sensitive
22:28:12 <alise> this lifewiki is amazing
22:28:43 <uorygl> http://google.com/search?q=lifewiki
22:28:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: This is why a relativistic CA is silly, because there's no inbuilt idea of speed or individual things.
22:28:54 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
22:29:27 * Sgeo has his computer tethered to his phone via USB, which is getting its Internet access from wifi
22:29:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It does what it was meant to do, and well, but that's it.
22:29:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:30:14 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't have infinite growth, or replication, or spaceships.
22:30:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, seen that computer in wireworld?
22:31:05 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Spartan_universal_computer-constructor
22:31:17 <alise> The Game of Life is just amazing.
22:31:31 <alise> It's a computer that controls a universal constructor.
22:31:40 <alise> Well, not /quite/ universal, but a damn good constructor.
22:31:48 <alise> "Because the machine itself consists exclusively of still lifes with seven or fewer cells, a sufficient program tape would allow the machine to self-replicate forever."
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22:32:28 <uorygl> Have we yet invented Life computers that can store memory sanely? :)
22:32:44 <alise> There's a Turing machine in Life.
22:32:45 <Sgeo> Wireworld has a universal computer
22:32:52 <alise> Sgeo: does it construct?
22:33:04 <alise> It does look "real", though.
22:33:15 <alise> I meant does WireWorld's construct. I guessed not.
22:33:17 <uorygl> Wireworld has no constructors at all. :)
22:33:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Could you hook up the lightspeed telegraph to a memory store?
22:33:29 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure it's not possible for a wireworld system to build
22:34:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: And input?
22:34:15 <alise> Can it be a lightspeed memory-access device?
22:34:37 <uorygl> Here's an idea. The space around your WireWorld circuit is Game of Life space. WireWorld-live cells act as live for Game of Life, but not vice versa. Once there are six live cells (of either type) surrounding a Game of Life cell, it becomes a dead WireWorld cell.
22:34:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Darn.
22:35:02 <alise> So you cannot build a lightspeed memory?
22:35:26 <uorygl> This also provides an obvious way of producing ROM, though ROM is probably less efficient than the memory you already have. :P
22:35:34 <Sgeo> "Wireworld-live" as in has a wire, or has an electron part?
22:35:40 <uorygl> Sgeo: has an electron part.
22:36:07 <AnMaster> <alise> Well, not /quite/ universal, but a damn good constructor. <-- you mean garden of eden patterns?
22:36:24 <uorygl> Universal constructors don't need to construct those!
22:36:30 <AnMaster> are there garden of eden still lifes btw?
22:36:51 <uorygl> That would be pretty awesome. :P
22:36:55 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I'd assume n.. right. How about GoE-like still lives, where the only parent is the pattern itself?
22:36:55 <AnMaster> but I mean, like garden of eden pattern, but can be directly reached from itself
22:37:09 <AnMaster> since obviously it must be reachable from itself to be a still life
22:37:25 <AnMaster> Sgeo, yeah what I said, same second
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22:37:51 <Sgeo> I think I said it first
22:37:59 <uorygl> I sure don't know of any.
22:38:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:38:21 <uorygl> Anyway, we need a Verilog-to-GoL compiler.
22:38:23 <oerjan> that might possibly be even harder than a garden of eden pattern, since it would have to have only one parent _everywhere_, rather than having no parent _somewhere_, so to speak
22:38:24 <Sgeo> Let's check the logs!
22:38:32 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
22:38:40 <uorygl> A Verilog-or-VHDL-to-GoL compiler.
22:38:45 <Sgeo> Yep, I'm first
22:39:11 <uorygl> A Garden of Eden pattern only needs to be parentless in one physical location.
22:39:16 <uorygl> That will make the entire thing parentless.
22:39:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: a garden of eden pattern can easily contain _parts_ that would have multiple possible parents if the rest of the pattern had
22:39:41 <oerjan> and it might be that that is essential to make it all work
22:39:53 <uorygl> With a Garden of Eden still life, however, it can't have two parents anywhere; it must be only-one-parent everywhere.
22:39:56 * Sgeo wants a pattern that has no descendents!
22:40:22 * Phantom_Hoover notices that pentadecathlon.net is active as of April.
22:40:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, but as long as you can't get the whole eden still life?
22:40:35 <uorygl> There are patterns with no parents; therefore, by the pigeonhole principle, there are patterns with no children. :P
22:40:43 <AnMaster> if you have such parts it need to be unstable if any bit of it is removed
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22:40:52 <AnMaster> uorygl, no that doesn't follow
22:41:16 <AnMaster> uorygl, since we more than one pattern mapping to the same
22:41:26 <uorygl> Well, there you have it.
22:41:39 <uorygl> Two parents with only one child between them? Clearly, one of the parents is childless.
22:41:59 <AnMaster> but could there be patterns that are stable still lifes but can't be reached from any other configuration?
22:42:13 <oerjan> however on a finite space it _does_ follow that "there are patterns with no parents" <=> "there are patterns with more than one parent"
22:42:14 <AnMaster> uorygl, group sex or something ;P
22:42:26 <oerjan> (from the pigeonhole principle)
22:42:28 <uorygl> By that definition, all sex is group sex. :P
22:42:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, uorygl: http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/images/9/9d/Grin_preblock_evolution.png
22:42:59 <oerjan> even that may not work for infinite space, in fact i think it doesn't
22:43:25 <Sgeo> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
22:43:32 <Sgeo> Oops! Google Chrome could not connect to www.conwaylife.com
22:43:38 <Sgeo> Oh, so it wasn't just me
22:44:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what is the difference between a glider and a spaceship
22:45:06 <Phantom_Hoover> A glider is a specific spaceship, the first to be discovered.
22:45:10 <uorygl> A glider is a specific spaceship; it's the five-cell one moving diagonally at c/4.
22:45:41 <uorygl> It's spaceship 5-1-4. :P
22:45:49 <Sgeo> How do things like the Fast Forward thingy work?
22:46:06 <uorygl> Sgeo: by detecting the front end of a ship and, if it's there, applying the back end of a ship.
22:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> It creates a LWSS regardless of whether it gets an input.
22:46:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: clearly a still life without any parent but itself must cover nearly the whole space
22:46:37 <oerjan> because otherwise you could put a single, dying pixel somewhere
22:47:00 <uorygl> Hmm, he has a point, there.
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22:47:15 <Sgeo> Ok, so let's look for GoE-like still lives in worlds of a finite size
22:47:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I excluded non-interacting patterns here
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22:47:59 <Sgeo> Or, better yet, let's do what AnMaster said
22:48:15 <uorygl> Maybe we should just consider unconstructible patterns in general.
22:48:17 <AnMaster> any interacting pattern must destroy it
22:48:53 <AnMaster> like if a glider approaches it can't be allowed to self-repair
22:49:08 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Freenode.
22:49:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that is what I said -_-
22:49:40 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> like if a glider approaches it can't be allowed to self-repair <AnMaster> or just kill the glider
22:51:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but a glider passing a bit away (would it need 4 cells or such? not sure of exact distance) would be fine. As long as it didn't interact in any way with the pattern
22:51:08 <AnMaster> how large is the required margin for that?
22:51:30 <Sgeo> 2 cells empty space, I think
22:52:20 <uorygl> The AND NOT gate is universal, right?
22:52:49 <uorygl> No, I mean like p AND NOT q = p AND (NOT q)
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22:52:52 -!- maedhros777 has left (?).
22:53:18 <Sgeo> and not != nand
22:53:55 <AnMaster> "and not" could sound like "and followed by not"
22:54:27 <AnMaster> after all you make an AND gate from a nand and an inverter normally (in CMOS at least)
22:54:38 <AnMaster> Sgeo, thus it was var from obvious
22:55:44 <uorygl> The great thing about WireWorld is that it's really easy to make a PRNG. :)
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22:56:15 <AnMaster> 1 & !(a & !(1 & !b)) <=> 1(a(1b'))' <=> (a1b)' <=> (ab)'
22:56:39 * uorygl stress-tests a certain AND NOT gate.
22:57:50 <uorygl> Hmm, I may be mistaken about the PRNG thing.
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22:59:16 <AnMaster> uorygl, challenge: construct a reversible gate in wireworld
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22:59:25 <AnMaster> which actually works if you send signals either way
22:59:43 <uorygl> Well, this one is kind of reversible.
23:00:01 <AnMaster> uorygl, so you can switch inputs with outputs?
23:00:04 <uorygl> Call this gate o <= p AND (NOT q).
23:00:13 <uorygl> It also works as q <= p AND (NOT o).
23:00:43 <AnMaster> uorygl, and does it have as many 1 in as out? Other thing required for a reversible one iirc
23:00:44 * Sgeo_2 wonders what's to blame for the lag
23:00:57 <uorygl> Essentially, it's a deleter: it looks at a wire and deletes a signal whenever it hears a signal coming in the third wire.
23:01:00 <AnMaster> (well states with 1 in and out)
23:01:18 <AnMaster> (obviously not for a given value, see inverter for example)
23:01:32 <AnMaster> uorygl, can't be reversible then can it?
23:02:08 <uorygl> The cross is a gate that works either way. The problem is, it can only be used to make OR gates, I think.
23:02:28 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't create a 2-in 1-out gate that is reversible.
23:02:33 <AnMaster> uorygl, I suspect that reversible gates need to be symetric, I'm not sure though
23:02:58 <AnMaster> with that I mean physically symmetric
23:02:59 <uorygl> Why would that be the case? You can do lots of things in WW that don't affect anything.
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23:03:12 <AnMaster> uorygl, well okay, "active elements" then
23:03:33 <AnMaster> sure you could add a wire stump that just dies out
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23:03:43 <uorygl> Surely you can simulate a symmetric thing with an asymmetric thing.
23:04:27 <uorygl> Have one side that has p NAND (not q), one that has (not p) OR q. Or however that goes.
23:04:34 <uorygl> And modulo capitalization. :P
23:04:37 <AnMaster> uorygl, but doing one circuit for one way and another for the other way and then detecting from where the signal came is kind of cheating
23:05:20 <uorygl> Grr, my bigger PRNG also stabilized.
23:05:24 <AnMaster> (detection needed to block feedback from output)
23:05:59 <AnMaster> uorygl, don't all PRNGs cycle if you wait long enough? I'm not sure this is true.
23:06:24 <oerjan> uorygl: P and (not Q) is only universal if you also have the constant 1, otherwise you cannot construct anything which is always 1 from it
23:06:54 <uorygl> Yeah, all finite PRNGs cycle eventually.
23:06:57 <uorygl> This PRNG cycled quickly.
23:07:01 <oerjan> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post's_lattice (if you dare)
23:07:22 <uorygl> oerjan: well, yeah, nothing's universal if you have only one state available to you. :)
23:07:56 <oerjan> uorygl: P nand Q is universal as a function of the states given, though
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23:09:17 <uorygl> Well, in WireWorld, all NOT gates have to have clocks anyway.
23:09:49 <uorygl> Since only one pattern is static.
23:11:23 <uorygl> In WireWorld, every pattern that does not consist entirely of dead wire and empty space turns into something else in the next generation.
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23:11:50 <AnMaster> uorygl, but why do you need a clock in an inverter in ww?
23:12:32 <Sgeo_2> AnMaster, if no signal goes in, how do you make a signal come out?
23:12:35 <Sgeo_2> Unless 0 isn't just no signal, but something else
23:12:42 <AnMaster> Sgeo_2, ah depends on how you define 0
23:12:48 <AnMaster> you can have two-wire signaling
23:13:08 <AnMaster> like fizzie did in that logic circuit in that game
23:13:25 <AnMaster> transport simulation... *not* simutrans
23:14:31 <oerjan> uorygl: in fact iirc (and trying to read that web page) P and (not Q) generates _precisely_ the class T_0^inf of those functions that have an argument such that the whole function cannot be 1 unless that argument is 1
23:14:34 <AnMaster> uorygl, you wouldn't need a clock with complementary signals right?
23:14:45 <AnMaster> plus this could be unclocked completely I think
23:14:57 * pikhq shall attempt to play with the TCP rate control algorithm
23:15:05 <AnMaster> well not exactly, you still need to generate a signal somewhere
23:15:52 <pikhq> RX bytes:7276136 (6.9 MiB) TX bytes:1575377 (1.5 MiB)
23:15:56 <AnMaster> uorygl, such a circuit would be more resilient against everything not matching up perfectly too
23:16:14 <AnMaster> as long as the wires did it wouldn't matter if you got a bit of delay with no signal on either
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23:29:39 <Sgeo_2> "We are happy to be able to continue to offer episodes of Stargate SG-1 through January 2011."
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23:34:02 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise: What did you mean by lightspeed memory?
23:34:08 <alise> memory that can be written and read to at lightspeed
23:34:14 <alise> through a communication path
23:34:18 <alise> no matter what bit of memory is accessed
23:35:38 <alise> phantom meant http://pentadecathlon.com/ not .net btw
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23:42:54 <alise> http://www.radicaleye.com/DRH/pi.html
23:42:58 <alise> Life really is the Physics Esolang.
23:43:51 <alise> [[As the number of ticks (t) increases, the population of the entire pattern approximates (pi-2)/720 t^2. At four million ticks, when the images below were captured, this works out to a value of pi correct to two places after the decimal point... so this is not quite the most efficient way to calculate pi.]]
23:43:58 <alise> The POPULATION APPROXIMATES PI. Seriously.
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23:48:51 <oerjan> there was this procession of colorful cats
23:52:19 <alise> Theory: We live in a relativistic, quantum universe... emulated on a Game of Life pattern.
23:55:57 <Sgeo_2> There's no real way to prove or disprove that