00:24:54 -!- augur has joined. 00:26:20 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 00:26:28 So, Finnish. 00:26:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:26:37 `translate suden kesy jalostettu muoto 00:26:39 processed form of the domesticated wolf 00:26:59 That's actually a much better translation than what I got last time. 00:27:54 -!- gm|lap has joined. 00:27:55 So, "suden" is the genitive of "susi"? Or is it the accusative? 00:28:18 If "kesy" and "suden" have to match case, then I guess it has to be the accusative. 00:28:28 -!- ws has quit (Quit: [BX] Outwit. Outplay. Outlast. Survivor BitchX.). 00:29:21 "Muoto" is just the accusative, of course. How does "jalostettu" come about? What's that word made of? 00:32:41 <3 Humble Indie Bundle 00:32:51 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:41:19 -!- augur has joined. 00:41:27 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:43:54 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:43:59 -!- myndzi has joined. 00:45:21 uorygl: how's HackEgo doing the translating there? 00:46:37 Using Google Translate. 00:48:18 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: null). 00:49:25 -!- sshc has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:51:09 * soupdragon pukes 00:54:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:01:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:32:07 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:33:16 -!- mre has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:33:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:39:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:39:59 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 01:40:36 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:50:58 -!- mre has joined. 02:03:00 soupdragon: THAT IS NOT THE CORRECT WAY TO MAKE SOUP 02:03:09 that is not the correct way to puke 02:07:11 -!- augur has joined. 02:12:36 Gregor-L_: there are a lot of events after which you could say that. 02:13:08 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:13:23 Hey, your L got flipped about a 45-degree line and scaled up by a factor of sqrt(2). How did you do that? 02:13:35 Gregor-L_: Well, you see, first you stick the dragon in the soup. Then, you put stuff in it. Then, you take out the dragon. 02:13:49 uorygl: UNDERSCORE 02:14:06 where is alise 02:14:09 -!- sshc has joined. 02:14:11 ???? they talk to me sometimes 02:14:29 alise is all the voices in your head. 02:15:07 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:17:14 -!- maedhros777 has joined. 02:17:58 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Polynomial 02:18:04 Look at the hello world :) 02:18:13 I didn't realize it would be so huge 02:18:53 Pardon all the zeroes, I wrote a program to generate trinomials from zeroes and it's not very good yet 02:19:44 hello!!!!!!! 02:20:06 Hi :) 02:20:24 Did you see the hello world? 02:21:19 YES 02:21:29 It's insane 02:21:56 I tried putting it into Wolfram Alpha to get the final result and it didn't have enough space for all the numbers in the search box :) 02:22:48 I'm not sure how I'm going to trim down these coefficients 02:23:19 -!- augur has joined. 02:23:26 Because the final coefficients probably overflow all data types in C. 02:23:33 Including long long :) 02:23:37 use bignums 02:23:42 Yeah 02:23:58 How will I get the final polynomial of the hello world, though? 02:24:07 It would take me all day to do it by hand 02:24:26 Actually, more like a month, or several years =D 02:24:44 Maybe I should write a program to do that 02:24:59 ... Yes, this is why computers exist. 02:25:04 =D 02:25:11 And why we learn C. 02:25:34 By the way, have you ever used D? 02:25:47 HORRORS UPON HORRORS AWAIT YOU 02:25:55 Is it that bad? 02:26:07 Language isn't terrible. 02:26:20 bad language such as swear words 02:26:24 The runtime is such a massive bitch to get running. 02:26:28 I've heard it doesn't have much support, though 02:26:35 No IDEs or anything 02:26:48 It does have two standard libraries, though. 02:27:00 -!- coppro has joined. 02:27:00 I like the syntax from the look of it. 02:27:10 Maybe someone should make D++. 02:27:43 Or E 02:27:59 One that has support and good runtime 02:28:13 The secret is to not fork the language. 02:28:20 What do you mean? 02:29:50 The way I like is a variations of C like this: 02:30:01 x=y; --> y@x! 02:30:08 What???!!! 02:30:10 *x=*y; --> y@@x@! 02:30:23 x=strlen(y); --> y strlen;x! 02:30:24 so ! is assignment, and @ is derep 02:30:31 and it's postfax 02:30:43 And ; is function call operator 02:30:52 cool 02:30:57 Postfax...what kind of language is that? 02:31:02 * soupdragon adds this language to tHE WIZARD 02:31:13 What is "tHE WIZARD"? 02:31:24 zzo38 hypothetical langage design wizard 02:31:31 OK 02:31:33 it's a parody of trendy things like ruby and python and such 02:31:40 OK 02:31:41 basically you get a bunch of check boxes and radio buttons 02:31:50 and you choose things like syntax, evaluation order, .. etc 02:31:55 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/84556/whats-your-favorite-programmer-cartoon 02:31:56 and it prints out an interpreter for the language 02:32:30 I like the one with the kid's name being a MySQL injection 02:32:46 -!- Gregor-L_ has changed nick to Gregor-L. 02:32:52 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 02:33:02 int main(int argc,char**argv){puts("Hello, world!\n");} --> :main(int'argc' char**'argv'--int){"Hello, world!\n"puts;0} 02:33:06 Notice that the top one doesn't even print newlines :) 02:33:34 Do you have any URL or examples of wizard? 02:34:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:35:15 soupdragon: I want to make that! 02:35:33 I invented another problem on anarchy golf 02:35:37 Or, at least, to have that. 02:35:46 Anarchy golf? 02:36:03 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:36:17 zzo38 - I had written a wiki page about it, but I deleted my wiki 02:36:32 maedhros777: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Count+asterisks+ 02:36:43 if anyone likes this idea I would love improvements 02:36:47 What is it? 02:36:59 I tried to explain it to ehird but he just ignored me 02:37:22 soupdragon: Without seeing it how can I send improvement? 02:37:35 zzo38 well the idea is all that exists 02:37:47 zzo38: What is this site? 02:38:09 maedhros777: The anarchy golf is a site for codegolf, try to write a short program for the given input/output, there is many program language choices 02:38:47 Oh, so the challenge is to write a program that outputs the number of asterisks? 02:38:50 I didn't invent that site, but I did post some of the problems 02:39:00 That's an interesting idea 02:39:03 Cool 02:39:19 So what do the rankings mean? 02:39:33 That is, how are they ranked? 02:39:34 maedhros777: Yes, that's it. However, any program that complies with the example input/output is OK, even if it doesn't count the number of asterisks. (If your program is cheating, you can write "(cheat)" after your name) 02:39:45 The ranking is, 10000 for the shortest program 02:39:54 I mean, that's how the "score" is 02:40:01 The "rank" column is 1 for the shortest program 02:40:24 The "size" tells how many bytes in the program 02:40:32 So people compete for shortest program, lowest time, etc? 02:40:47 The "statistics" column is binary/alnum/symbol 02:41:04 The time is mostly not used. You compete for the shortest program. 02:41:10 Ok 02:41:12 The time is available just in case you are interested 02:41:16 Sounds cool, I should try it 02:41:26 Feeling kind of lazy now, though :) 02:41:37 You can try it. Push "use form" and then you can select the program langage you want, and enter your name in "Your name" field. 02:41:49 Ok 02:41:59 Wow, that's a lot of languages 02:42:16 If it is a binary file you can just upload the file 02:42:27 How can it be known if a program would work or not? 02:42:40 Does the site have its own compilers? 02:42:50 The site does have its own compilers on the execution server 02:42:55 This is a great idea 02:42:56 So it will tell you if it is success or not 02:43:05 Wow, it has brainfuck :) 02:43:08 (This should all be in a Hackiki :P ) 02:43:21 Has anyone ever made the smallest program for a problem in brainfuck? 02:43:48 yes 02:43:55 Wow :) 02:44:09 once I generated brainfuck programs by size and searched for ones that printed text 02:44:12 In the statistics, is size measured in bytes? 02:44:17 but I didn't actually find any interesting text.... 02:44:25 oh 02:44:28 you meant on the golf 02:44:30 You can also just make the shortest program in each individual category, and if you post for more than one program language you can have multiple scores 02:44:32 I didn't play the golf 02:44:36 Yes, it is measured in bytes 02:44:53 So someone made a solution in Flogscript with 2 bytes??!!! 02:44:57 Some of the formats are binary formats. 02:45:07 maedhros777: Yes. 02:45:08 Oh wait, it's a cheat 02:45:21 The one in Befunge isn't, though 02:45:25 Impressive 02:45:39 It still might be a cheat. 02:45:41 Can you view the programs they submitted? 02:45:52 Sometimes the authors did not put "(cheat)" after their name 02:45:58 You can view the programs at post-mortem time. 02:46:03 13day(s) and 23:27:55 before deadline (05/29 10:03:09 JST), all source codes will be revealed after the deadline 02:46:12 Oh, ok 02:46:14 So that means, in 2 weeks you will be able to view the programs. 02:46:18 Yeo 02:46:24 Oops, I meant yep :) 02:46:35 (You can still post programs after the deadline, but the date will be red in that case) 02:47:49 Even for ones that are cheats, you can try to figure out how to cheat in that problem! But you can do both cheat and genuine solution. I like to post both cheating and genuine solutions to problems, some other people also like to do so 02:48:07 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Palindromic+prime 02:48:10 I might try that 02:48:25 OK 02:48:48 How many palindromic primes are needed? 02:49:24 See the example output, that's how many are needed 02:49:33 Ok 02:49:49 -!- augur has joined. 02:51:07 I'm looking at some finished ones, and the smallest code is ugly :) 02:51:18 But I guess that's necessary to make a small program 02:52:26 Also, a few other hints: "exec is denied" does not apply to shell scripts. The source file name is always "test." and the extension. In interpreted languages, usually the source file will be the only file in the current directory. 02:52:39 Ok 02:53:20 I think I'm going to die: main() without return type or arguments :) http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?char+pyramid/nn_1271263335&cpp 02:53:25 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 02:53:46 maedhros777: no arguments is fine... no type is not 02:53:53 Yeah, I know 02:54:00 I use int main() all the time 02:54:10 But just main()...disgusting... 02:54:21 C does not actually require the type, the type is assumed "int" 02:54:27 (If you use the correct compiler parameters) 02:54:39 Still a gross stain upon the language :) 02:55:14 Yes 02:55:50 public static void main(String[] args) 02:55:53 Could be worse. 02:55:57 For the asterisk problem, how is the input generated? i.e. is it with newlines? 02:56:11 oh yay java 02:56:12 Oh yeah, Java doesn't even return an int :) 02:56:26 What do you mean, how is the input generated? 02:56:34 i think there's a System.exit or something 02:56:37 Each input is run through the program a separate time. 02:56:38 Are there newlines? 02:56:50 There are newlines if that is how it is shown 02:57:05 Ok 02:57:09 So at the end of each line there will be a newline character. 02:57:57 Ok 02:58:09 Then EOF at the end? 02:58:47 Yes, it will be EOF when the end is reached 02:59:17 Ok, I get it now 03:00:08 These are also my problems: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Half+Sierpinski http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Half+Sierpinski 03:00:15 Although I like the other problems too 03:00:50 What do you think is the function with the least character that reads from standard input? 03:00:55 fgets, maybe? 03:01:15 Probably. I don't know for sure but I think so 03:01:23 I think I'll use that 03:01:26 Bye now 03:01:41 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:03:08 I won "PrinterOriented Banner" problem even though I did not create that problem 03:04:14 So I improved JSMIPS' speed today. 03:04:17 By a little bit. 03:04:30 OHHHH that's what vi is for 03:04:53 yay z80 still rocks 03:04:56 What do you mean, what's wat vi is for? 03:05:20 in anarchy golf 03:06:03 Yes, but I still don't understand your comment 03:06:14 Are you refering to any specific problem? 03:06:35 nope 03:06:45 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Interpret+Perl+Code <-- the bash ones are kinda obvious 03:06:56 Yes, it certainly is 03:07:00 same deal with zsh + fish 03:07:09 Yes, is same zsh and fish even 03:07:16 not a z80 entry in sight :/ 03:07:50 Write one if you want to 03:10:30 Sometimes I write a bit strange solution for "Network mask v2" http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Network+mask+v2/zzo38%28file%2Cpostmortem%29_1273244351&zsh 03:10:30 -!- gm|lap|oops has joined. 03:11:37 -!- Oranjer has joined. 03:11:44 How many problems have you gotten best score? 03:12:48 I think they need to add a input-fix mode (I have written the patch already) 03:13:05 -!- gm|lap has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:13:12 -!- gm|lap|oops has quit (Changing host). 03:13:12 -!- gm|lap|oops has joined. 03:13:20 -!- gm|lap|oops has changed nick to gm|lap. 03:13:27 not sure 03:13:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:18:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:21:43 The "Count asterisks" is difficult to make with dc, because if the input difficult, but I still managed to do it. (But this program does not actually count all of the asterisks) 03:37:33 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 03:38:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:41:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit). 03:48:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:49:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit). 03:51:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:51:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit). 03:52:36 -!- Gregor-L has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:52:38 -!- Gregor-L_ has joined. 03:53:51 -!- Gregor-L_ has changed nick to Gregor-L. 03:54:02 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor. 04:00:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:06:59 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:07:03 -!- Halph has joined. 04:07:13 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 04:52:49 -!- augur_ has joined. 04:54:03 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:59:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:00:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:02:24 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 05:07:39 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:23:29 I didn't explode yet 05:26:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:28:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:31:23 I have not yet exploded. 05:32:36 * pikhq wants his damned HTTP access back 05:33:27 Are you out of HTTP access? 05:33:30 Why? 05:33:32 Again. 05:33:37 A. Fucking. Gain. 05:34:03 But why? What happened? What is going wrong? 05:34:27 I can access IRC and Gopher. 05:34:33 Why? Because my ISP sucks. 05:35:14 Oh, look. It's back. It was out for a few hours, but it's back. 05:35:26 Just like last night. 05:35:36 Fucking hell I hate this. 05:38:43 Does FTP and SMTP and POP3 work? 05:38:52 No, no, and no, respectively. 05:38:54 And why does HTTP stop working even though IRC and Gopher continues to work? 05:39:06 Because fuck you, we have a monopoly. 05:39:35 Near as we could conclude last night, I was having an 88% packet loss rate, and IRC was only barely able to work during that. 05:40:08 At least a lot of my text files are accessible using Gopher protocol! 05:45:34 When my internet stops, *all* protocols stop working. 05:45:51 It's satellite. 05:53:29 It's almost like they go "What, you were expecting service? Sorry, we're just going to take your money. Much more profitable." 05:58:06 I'd have freaking better Internet access if I went to the Northern Territories of Canada. 05:58:22 THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE ROADS 06:01:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 06:01:51 -!- soupdragon has quit (Quit: soupdragon). 06:11:32 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 06:20:35 I noticed the GNU FDL contains something which seems to be in there specifically so that when Wikipedia relicensed all of their files, it would not be a violation of this license. 06:21:36 yes, that's correct 06:21:59 Yes, that clause was put in at the behest of the Wikimedia Foundation. 06:22:15 As, frankly, the FDL was a terrible choice of license for Wikipedia. 06:23:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:23:52 pikhq: well, at the time, there weren't many licenses around 06:24:03 True. 06:24:05 I think they picked FDL because it existed, which was a strong benefit over many of the other licenses people have suggested 06:24:11 Still terrible. 06:24:14 although it's pretty much its only advantage 06:24:29 GFDL is good for some things; I used it for the C-INTERCAL manual 06:24:37 it's pretty much designed for book-style manuals 06:24:50 Yeah. 06:24:56 It's decent for a manual. 06:25:06 It's *workable* for books. 06:25:25 I'm not entirely sure it's *possible* to follow it for a wiki. 06:27:20 it is, but Wikipedia didn't 06:30:58 Do you like command-line version of DigitalMZX Vault? 06:31:00 http://pastebin.com/bB8e9wNY 06:31:39 -!- Adrian^L_ has changed nick to Adrian^L. 06:34:25 Is Adrian^L at 2600? 06:34:46 Actually, phalse.2600.COM and 2600.com resolve to the same IP address 06:35:13 Perhaps you faked it? Or is it proper? 06:38:33 The reverse DNS resolves to phalse.2600.COM however, it seems 06:53:12 I found a list of secret services codes 06:53:18 But I won't tell you right now 06:53:24 ... 06:53:40 WELL THEY'RE SECRET, DUH 06:55:28 Yes, that's it 07:05:36 -!- mre has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:07:55 Can you become a threat to society by taking pictures of Secret Service agents in your own office? 07:09:47 I do not see Obama on the list of secret codenames. 07:09:56 Perhaps because it is secret! 07:10:06 the sort of people who think of doing that are possibly threats to society for other reasons 07:11:29 I don't think that is necessarily the case at all. 07:11:45 VERY GOOD ANSWER, CITIZEN AIS523 07:11:52 Even then, you aren't necessarily deliberately taking pictures of Secret Service agents. It could be automatic due to security cameras and so on. 07:12:07 * oerjan ducks beneath the rock again 07:12:15 is it comfortable down there? 07:12:19 The Secret Service might even be a threat to society too, there are reports about such things 07:12:40 well it's a bit cramped, but it does have internet access 07:13:43 THERE ARE NO SUCH REPORTS. ANYONE BELIEVING IN SUCH REPORTS IS A DANGER TO SOCIETY. 07:15:49 oerjan: Unlike me. 07:15:50 :P 07:23:46 I am not finished writing a solitaire card program yet. But it is nearly completed. 07:28:03 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Why do people think legalizing drugs is The Answer? I thought The Answer was 42.). 07:28:21 legalizing 42 drugs, that's the ticket 07:29:06 Which 42, though? 07:29:48 WHICHEVER ARE GOOD FOR SOCIETY 07:31:25 -!- gm|lap has quit (Quit: ilua). 07:31:35 -!- mre has joined. 07:33:56 -!- augur has joined. 07:34:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 07:40:50 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:57:27 !run bash 07:57:37 !echo hi 07:57:44 hi 07:58:01 Oh, so I am still connected 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:18:28 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:31:25 -!- sofia has joined. 08:31:55 -!- sofia has left (?). 08:45:36 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 09:13:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:41:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:49:00 -!- cheater2 has joined. 09:50:08 -!- cheater3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:00:20 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:45:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:59:39 damn ais just left :( 10:59:46 damn,* 10:59:49 uorygl, there? 11:00:05 wait you didn't know VHDL did you? Only verilog 11:02:49 -!- tombom has joined. 11:18:29 -!- mre has quit (Quit: I'll be back). 11:55:40 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:13:12 -!- hiato has joined. 12:22:02 Deewiant, how large does the stack usually become in befunge93? 12:22:22 I mean, would 2047 entries be enough for all "common" programs? 12:22:33 * AnMaster is thinking about befunge93 in VHDL 12:23:02 dynamic size would be an extreme PITA 12:32:51 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:39:10 -!- alise has joined. 12:39:37 flawbatness 12:44:22 alise, two possible summer projects that I'm considering: befunge93 in VHDL, befunge93 on Lego Mindstorms 12:44:28 alise, opinions? 12:44:31 VHDL 12:44:42 mindstorms is a fairly regular robotic platform from what i gather. and you can use C 12:44:44 so too easy 12:44:45 UNLESS 12:44:48 alise, the lego would be fun too, output would be a flashing lego led 12:44:48 each robot was a cell in fungespace 12:44:54 and they physically walked around 12:44:58 alise, I only have two RCXes 12:45:00 if that is the case, that * G_64 12:45:09 AnMaster: eh, 2-celled unefunge 12:45:11 who needs more 12:45:14 hah 12:45:46 alise, but I was thinking of using a flashing LED to output the bits of console output 12:45:52 and sensors to input 1/0 bits 12:45:55 I'd go for VHDL, because it's so fucking alien 12:45:59 and it'd be the FASTEST. BEFUNGE-93. EVAR 12:46:01 oh wait, I could do sound! 12:46:38 alise, except I don't own an FPGA to test it on, so it would be simulation only (but with the aim to make most synthesiable (sp?) in theory) 12:46:42 you could do sound with vhdl <3 12:46:45 the exception would be file loading and console IO 12:46:52 alise, I could do sound on RCX 12:47:08 it has a built in speaker, but I think it is limited to some set of 8 or whatever different beeps 12:47:11 but it's boring 12:47:13 even whoring 12:47:25 alise, not sure about brickOS... but that needs a gcc 2.95.x cross compiler 12:47:32 which I'm not sure I can even get working nowdays 12:48:20 http://www.flickr.com/photos/starsammy/4605760111/sizes/o/in/pool-16135094@N00/ ;; good lord, this is /not/ how recipies should look! 12:48:21 | 12:48:22 |\ 12:48:27 thanks myndzi 12:51:12 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:51:58 http://www.nlm.nih.gov/dreamanatomy/images/1200%20dpi/IV-A-01.jpg 12:52:15 http://i.imgur.com/Xf057.jpg ;; translation 12:55:37 hm 12:56:05 http://www.flickr.com/photos/starsammy/4605760111/sizes/o/in/pool-16135094@N00/ ;; good lord, this is /not/ how recipies should look! <-- wonderful idea 12:56:11 alise, just wonderful 12:56:16 flow charts! 12:56:19 Horrible idea; just horrible. 12:56:23 alise, why 12:56:50 alise, it makes gooking into engineering, easy to follow 12:56:50 Recipes are perfectly fine; obfuscating their clear prose with multi-directional diagrams that leave no obvious order in which cooking should be done and leave out vital details is ridiculous. 12:57:02 Recipes /are/ easy to follow. 12:57:07 And imagine that diagram for a complicated recipe. 12:57:08 -!- cheater2 has joined. 12:57:11 alise, they need to be bullet lists then 12:57:16 It would start looking more like fungot's graph. 12:57:17 alise: the diggers must have been enough to fnord and remote farmers who at some period of life appeared to have two sharers of his mysteries; a fnord portuguese fnord from the house and the ancient pain. 12:57:19 alise, plus this allows concurrent cooking 12:57:23 English is scalable. 12:57:51 alise, plus → is increasing time 12:57:59 and some tasks are concurrent there 12:58:25 I find those incredibly easy to follow 12:58:28 You sing its praises but have you actually taken it on yourself to think of - perhaps even read - the corresponding recipe before deciding that the flowchart is superior? 12:58:31 the diagrams I mean 12:58:41 And now consider a more complicated diagram, and its corresponding recipe. Iterate until you're convinced. 12:58:44 alise, no where are they? 12:58:53 AnMaster: Pardon? 12:59:00 alise, "corresponding recipe" 12:59:03 where are they? 12:59:14 Um, get out your nearest recipe book. 12:59:26 ah could be a problem 12:59:28 Google? 12:59:31 ah good idea 12:59:40 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:59:45 alise, but there may be different variants of the same recipe? 12:59:48 Admittedly amateur-written recipes might not be of such good quality, and professional ones may have copyright issues, but I'm sure you'll find something. 12:59:50 AnMaster: Well, yes. 12:59:53 Doesn't really matter. 13:00:14 hm 13:00:57 okay the flow chart isn't perfect, for example it says "mix" but with what? an electric mixer? a wooden ladle? 13:01:11 but the idea isn't fundamentally flawed though 13:01:25 Now imagine extending that "mix" to have the full information. 13:01:35 Quite horizontally extended, you might say. 13:01:36 footnotes? definitions chapter? 13:01:41 By which I mean "I hope you like scrolling in two dimensions." 13:01:42 multi-row? 13:01:47 And good luck /printing/ this. 13:01:52 Or will you put a computer right next to all your foodery? 13:02:02 AnMaster: So now it's obfuscated English text, cross-referenced. 13:02:07 I'll take simple words. 13:02:07 alise, yes, on the freezer door :P 13:02:20 AnMaster: And jog over to your freezer whenever you complete a step? 13:02:26 alise, okay but simply making the arrows wider to allow 2 lines of text would work 13:02:29 Most people keep cookbooks right next to their working surface. 13:02:40 AnMaster: Do that, then replace the arrows with "then". What's lost? 13:02:50 alise, well okay, computers everywhere. I'm still waiting for the holographic terminals. Oh and the flying cars... 13:03:00 And the Singularity... 13:03:04 and that 13:03:50 Then it won't matter since we won't have to cook. :P 13:03:55 good point 13:04:22 alise, anyway I think a directed graph would be better. Could also be nicely rendered with graphviz 13:04:27 Unless you want to. But then you'll just use your amazing memory to know the entire recipe. 13:05:15 alise, the problems with current recipes is that it is hard to keep your location in them, maybe some sort of marker placed on top of the text would help 13:05:23 since you need to check back several times during cooking 13:06:15 also it should be strictly chronological order. It is no good to find that you should have done something else in another beaker 10 minutes before, and during that done the thing described first 13:06:23 seen that happen 13:06:41 Of course, that is simply a badly-written recipe. 13:06:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:06:49 alise, most ones are IME 13:06:57 Most words are badly written. 13:06:59 alise, not written for engineers at least 13:07:07 What makes you think flowcharts won't be badly made too? 13:07:17 http://www.cookingforengineers.com/? I've never used it, mind. 13:07:21 good point 13:07:26 * AnMaster looks 13:08:07 Hah! I thought someone else had invented ginger jam before me, but it is savoury! 13:08:16 doesn't seem too different from normal 13:08:17 No, I am the first to produce a substance that will turn a Rich Tea into a Ginger Nut! 13:08:24 I've commonly had rhubarb and ginger jam! 13:08:37 AnMaster: It's certainly more precise. 13:08:38 ginger jam? sounds familiar 13:08:45 alise, to some extent yes 13:08:47 Yes, it seems people use the term to mean something you'd put on meat. 13:08:55 But nothing! Nothing! That will turn a Rich Tea into a Ginger Nut! 13:08:56 alise, at least no "add salt until it tates good" 13:08:59 I am the sole innovator in this area! 13:09:14 Rich Teas are disgusting. 13:09:16 alise, no I seem ginger jam on toast 13:09:16 AnMaster: "I don't like putting hot items into my refrigerator, so I like to use an aluminum half sheet pan as a heat sink." 13:09:19 Phantom_Hoover: Die. 13:09:21 AnMaster: Shit. 13:09:22 don't like it myself 13:09:29 don't like ginger at all in fact 13:09:30 It is quite spicy. But it was nice on biscuits. 13:09:36 It was sweet and all. 13:09:39 alise: They're bland and useless for dunking! 13:09:48 alise, :D 13:09:52 about the heat sink 13:09:55 Phantom_Hoover: I quite like them dunked. They're no more bland than Digestives. 13:10:03 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:10:03 Anyway. 13:10:16 Recipe for ginger jam - so imprecise that AnMaster will cry -: 13:10:33 alise, however, what about stuff like "fry the bacon", how do you know when to stop? In most recipes it doesn't seem to give an exact time 13:10:36 Put a little bit of ground ginger into a mixing bowl. Add water until it is not opaque; a bit more than 50% opaque. 13:10:37 Mix. 13:10:41 I beg to differ. They have so little structure that they disintegrate when you hold them in the steam. 13:10:41 plus that would vary anyway 13:10:46 Add about two-to-three slightly-more-than-teaspoons of sugar. 13:10:47 you need some good measurement for that stuff 13:10:48 Mix. 13:10:50 alise, no? 13:10:55 Put in a pan. Gas Mark 5 or so. 13:10:58 here comes the imprecise bit 13:11:08 Every now and then, add about 1/3 of a tablespoon of cornflour. 13:11:12 And some sugar to offset its taste. 13:11:13 alise, what is gas mark 5 on an electric stove? 13:11:13 Mix. 13:11:23 Wait until the sugar explodes^Wcaramelises. 13:11:26 Take off the hob. 13:11:28 Leave for a minute. 13:11:31 Tada, a little bit of ginger jam! 13:11:39 we don't have gas stoves in Sweden. Well we probably do but extremely rare 13:11:40 Scale up to make something that'll actually cover two slices of toast... IF YOU DARE. 13:11:45 If it starts boiling you've done something wrong. 13:11:56 AnMaster: Yeah I don't know actually, I did this at the unit out of extreme boredom 13:12:02 Don't have a gas stove here I don't think 13:12:14 Anyway, it produces something quite nice. Very sweet obviously. 13:12:27 But I swear, spread it on a Rich Tea and it tastes like a Ginger Nut. Or your money back. 13:12:29 probably in stuff like mobile units like at campings 13:12:34 or whatever you call them 13:12:45 AnMaster: Electric stoves tend to be so, so slow to heat up! 13:12:47 smaller than mobile home units towed by a normal car 13:12:52 alise, maybe *shrug* 13:13:06 Every now and then, add about 1/3 of a tablespoon of cornflour. <-- how often 13:13:10 this IS TO IMPRECISE! 13:13:12 Every now and then. 13:13:13 *TOO 13:13:17 TOO yes 13:13:22 Basically when you notice "no this is very runny". 13:13:32 alise, how do we define "very runny"? 13:13:32 It shouldn't be thick though. The huge explosion of the sugar makes it thick. 13:13:40 AnMaster: Like it's only slightly thicker than pure water. 13:13:47 how slightly? 13:13:49 :/ 13:13:53 Thingy. 13:13:57 alise, see why I have problems with recipes? 13:14:08 Well, I would have written it down but this was the first time I'd done it. 13:14:15 hm okay 13:14:16 So it was basically, you know, "oh fuck it let's add some more". 13:14:21 Sage takes up ~1.4GB. 13:14:23 Why? 13:14:29 Phantom_Hoover: Because. 13:14:33 alise, also how much sugar is required to offset the taste? 13:14:49 AnMaster: About half a slightly-bigger-than-teaspoon (a slightly-bigger-than-teaspoon is one of those plastic spoon things.) 13:14:51 alise, plus this could be represented in a flow chart with a loop :D 13:15:00 with entry/exit condition of course 13:15:25 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: going for my weekend away in bryanston~). 13:15:29 Incidentally, there needs to be a nice name for the sequence (x+1)/x for integral (natural?) x. 13:15:38 Even if it is just (1/x) + 1. 13:16:10 I still think that a name is needed for the various sets of complex numbers. 13:16:10 alise, I think we should list it in moles. Just imagine: ... mol sugar (chemical formula goes here) 13:16:24 Where a and b are in N, Z, Q and R. 13:16:30 Complex numbers are weird, man. 13:16:36 Weird as fuck. 13:16:37 I know that for Z it's Gaussian Integers. 13:16:48 alise, not really. Not compared to quaternions 13:17:17 The only thing weirder is infinitely complex numbers. Which I just defined to be complex numbers, extended with recursion: you have (a + b ii) where ii^2 = -1 and a and b are infinitely complex numbers. 13:17:30 YOUR MIND WILL BLOW 13:18:04 But if you have a complex of the form a+bi, if a and b are complex then it's still complex. 13:18:06 alise, ii^2 = -1? 13:18:10 how does that even work 13:18:20 ii is a new unit, not i*i. 13:18:23 ah 13:18:25 okay 13:18:25 I can't use i because i \in C. 13:18:28 So it's ii \in IC. 13:18:34 alise, but is that (ii)^2 ? 13:18:38 Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, true. 13:18:40 What differentiates it from i? 13:18:44 Nothing. 13:18:51 Except it's in IC, not C. 13:18:53 alise, why not use k? 13:18:58 AnMaster: Meh :P 13:19:01 I should have 13:19:10 There is no functional difference as far as I can see. 13:19:14 alise, I mean, j is used by engineers for i, so that would be very confusing 13:19:27 AnMaster: And quaternions use i,j,k. 13:19:31 true 13:19:32 Although nobody uses quaternions. 13:19:37 Phantom_Hoover: Indeed. 13:19:37 alise, what about h then 13:19:41 How about DJSAOId 13:19:45 That's unambiguous! 13:19:45 s/ / / 13:20:11 [["Brobdingnagian" appears in the Oxford English Dictionary as a synonym for "very large" or "gigantic".]] 13:20:15 alise, math hates multi-letter abbrevs 13:20:19 AFAIK quaternions are used in some 3D modelling stuff. 13:20:20 *mathematics 13:20:25 *abbreviations 13:20:29 You contradict thine own self! 13:20:35 alise, why can't I shorten it? ;P 13:20:36 Phantom_Hoover: But that's computers. :P 13:20:44 alise, I'm not a math student 13:20:45 I'm CS :P 13:21:21 cs is just a branch of mathematics 13:21:29 admittedly a runt 13:21:37 * AnMaster googles define:runt 13:22:13 hm I'm not sure which meaning 13:22:14 A weak, pathetic young animal. 13:22:17 right 13:22:34 alise, also it is bordering on engineering at most unis 13:22:39 Actually I don't dislike CS. :-) 13:22:40 on the one I'm on too 13:22:45 AnMaster: Yes, that is the real problem. 13:23:04 Computer science is definitely mathematics, but engineering of any sort is not. 13:23:19 alise, engineering is like applied mathematics 13:23:26 It's not really. 13:23:27 except that refers to something else iirc 13:23:30 They use mathematics though. 13:23:38 alise, yeah applying it to problems. 13:23:50 Yeah. But then so does, say, accounting. 13:23:55 but yeah the phrase "applied mathematics" is already in use iirc 13:24:03 *Everything* is ultimately applied mathematics. 13:24:10 Phantom_Hoover, except pure math? 13:24:16 Fair point. 13:24:44 I have a sort of urge to play with set theory. 13:25:13 We all get that sometimes/ 13:25:26 lol 13:25:29 It's perfectly natural! 13:26:50 It has been observed in penguins! 13:27:18 yes quite. When kept at reasonable levels it is nothing to worry about. But you should watch out so you don't get addicted. Could result in your downfall. Just imagine, a setoholic... 13:27:49 -!- impomatic has joined. 13:27:52 Even worse, I have an urge to write an English-language translation of the axioms! 13:28:02 To indoctrinate poor, innocent mathematical children into the false religion! 13:28:09 okay now you are into dangerous stuff 13:28:39 alise, hm I wonder how VHDL integer type handles underflow/overflow 13:28:51 Probably "not". 13:28:59 it would be neat with an integer with the range 0-79 13:29:03 it can be done 13:29:09 but yeah not sure about overflow 13:29:35 I love Tarski's axiom so much 13:29:37 [[For every set x, there exists a set y whose members include: 13:29:37 * x itself; 13:29:37 * every subset of every member of y; 13:29:37 * the power set of every member of y; 13:29:38 * every subset of y of cardinality less than that of y.]] 13:29:51 it implies the axioms of infinity, choice, power set, and the existence of inaccessible cardinals 13:30:02 ∃y [x ∈ y ∧ ∀z ∈ y [∀w (w ⊆ z → w ∈ y) ∧ ∃w ∈ y ∀v (v ⊆ z → v ∈ w)] ∧ ∀z [z ⊆ y → (z ≈ y ∨ z ∈ y)]] 13:30:15 Why the [[]]? 13:30:39 I dunno, it's the same as () 13:30:44 I guess to make it easier to read 13:30:55 I mean the English version of Tarski's axiom. 13:31:05 Oh; that's my quote marks. 13:31:23 You are indeed strange. 13:32:13 Does anyone know the name for the symbol like an 'O' but tiny and on the baseline. 13:32:23 Null? 13:32:30 As in aleph-null? 13:32:38 impomatic, subscripted O? 13:32:58 impomatic: Where is it used? 13:32:58 or subscripted O with negative vertical space (ugh!) 13:33:12 Yes, as in aleph-null. 13:33:29 impomatic, isn't that just a subscripted 0? 13:33:34 But I can't find a HTML or Unicode entity for it 13:33:48 0? 13:33:48 It's simply subscripted zero. 13:33:55 impomatic: â‚€ 13:33:56 It's not O. 13:33:57 It's zero. 13:34:03 There is also Aleph-one, etc. 13:34:07 Phantom_Hoover, unicode has a subscripted 0 letter iirc 13:34:11 impomatic: However, using the Unicode subscripts is bad style. 13:34:14 Use 0 instead. 13:34:18 (They are only there for legacy reasons.) 13:34:22 alise, why is the unicode subscript bad style? 13:34:33 useful on IRC 13:34:38 Unicode in general is pretty stupid. 13:34:40 x² for the suberscript 13:34:42 AnMaster: only in Unicode for compatibility reasons; not every character can be subscripted, just an arbitrary, small subset; Unicode is a character set, not a typesetting system 13:34:50 Phantom_Hoover, yeah they didn't include klingon :( 13:34:57 they are officially deprecated 13:34:57 Or Tengwar. 13:35:10 well missing klingon is worse 13:35:15 well,* 13:35:43 I have never watched any Star Trek, with the exception of the 2008 movie. 13:35:49 ah 13:36:01 never saw that movie iirc 13:36:19 Star Trek is quite entertaining. Just fluff, though, of course. 13:36:29 Spock kills Kirk with Rosebud and then it turns out that they're both Tyler Durden! 13:36:42 Phantom_Hoover: The 2008 movie? 13:36:45 Do you mean the 2009 one? 13:36:53 Yes. 13:36:57 Right. 13:37:03 That one is even more fluffy. :-) 13:37:11 Of course. 13:37:51 "This idea was later used to create the 2009 film, SProxy-Connection: keep-alive Cache-Control: max-age=0 r Trek." --Wikipedia 13:38:00 wat. 13:38:22 [[This idea was later used to create the 2009 film, [[Star Trek (film)|SProxy-Connection: keep-alive 13:38:22 Cache-Control: max-age=0 13:38:23 r Trek]].]] 13:38:23 --page source 13:38:24 Which page? 13:38:31 [[Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country]] 13:38:41 Don't change it 13:38:44 Best Trek movie title ever 13:39:18 alise, XD 13:39:20 * Phantom_Hoover looks at history. 13:39:26 sounds like vandalism though 13:39:31 Or a filter issue. 13:39:35 or that 13:39:44 Coming soon... 13:39:46 A world... 13:39:46 Bloody weird vandalism. 13:39:50 Never seen before... 13:39:53 Space... 13:39:55 Unleashed... 13:39:58 DUN DADANDANDAU DNUUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN 13:40:00 DRAMATIC CLIPS 13:40:01 ... 13:40:07 SProxy-Connection: keep-alive Cache-Control: max-age=0 r Trek. 13:40:13 alise, The final frontier! 13:40:16 :D 13:40:34 alise, To boldly go where no TCP packet has gone before! 13:40:57 "WHAT?! They're not caching our pages!" 13:41:03 "Someone... has... infiltrated... our... server." 13:41:04 Red alert! 13:41:06 "IT RUNS OUR SHIP!" 13:41:11 SIRENS SIRENS SIRENS SIRENS 13:41:18 The CPU cannae tak it! 13:41:26 "I'll use Mac OS X to hack our own Ruby on Rails admin interface!" 13:41:32 alise, and including realistic reversing of polarity! 13:41:34 for the first time ever 13:41:35 "THE PASSWORD IS 'ROSEBUD'!!!!!" 13:41:47 alise, reversing polarity of the DC circuit it infected! 13:41:58 the diodes will block it, shut it down 13:42:01 Kane... hacked... the Enterprise! 13:42:33 ... 13:42:37 Spock... is a HUMAN 13:42:40 From an ALTERNATE REALITY! 13:42:44 HE HOLDS THE KEY TO THE CACHING 13:42:46 okay that's too weird 13:42:49 He must sacrifice himself... 13:42:51 To safe... 13:42:54 The universe... 13:42:54 but I like it :) 13:42:59 alise, save* 13:43:04 yes 13:43:12 The ship's drive is so powerful that if it isn't cached, the sheer energy will OBLITERATE THE UNIVERSE! 13:43:16 But DON'T TELL HEALTH AND SAFETY! 13:43:20 hah 13:43:32 alise, I liked my idea of realistic reversing of polarity 13:43:38 xD 13:43:40 presumably they have installed easy switches for it by now 13:43:43 since they do it so often 13:43:49 The ship is based on solving Diophantine equations. 13:43:55 mechanical ones probably 13:43:59 alise, oh? 13:44:03 Yes. 13:44:07 how do you mean 13:44:07 This is never elaborated upon. 13:44:11 ah 13:44:18 It is, however, used in the climax to save the universe. 13:44:33 okay that sounds like treknobable gone bad 13:44:35 I mean 13:44:37 worse than usual 13:44:51 Can we use the inevitable breakdown of causality due to FTL travel as a plot point? 13:44:59 Phantom_Hoover, been done iirc? 13:45:08 In ST? 13:45:12 in star trek yes 13:45:16 next generation I think 13:45:17 AnMaster: They used the proof of Poincare's conjecture to prove that the circles of the ship MUST evaporate!!!! 13:45:23 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, yes we can. 13:45:36 It turns out that you can do infinitely long tasks in finite time if you don't care about causality. 13:45:41 The computation reaches BEYOND the end of the universe. 13:45:48 This is how it solves Diophantine equations. 13:45:55 We shall build a TwoDucks interpreter! 13:46:03 huh 13:46:32 alise, which one was Poincare's conjecture? 13:46:33 And hence defy the Halting Problem! 13:46:42 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincar%C3%A9_conjecture 13:46:45 It is a theorem, at least! 13:47:00 It's about circles tightening. And spheres. 13:47:09 The second-last sphere in the image looks like the Death Star. 13:47:13 So clearly this is a Trek/Wars crossover. 13:47:22 Also clearly the redesigned Enterprise is circular. 13:47:24 And gets shrinked. 13:47:27 On the Death Star. 13:47:46 We must refashion it into a torus before we are crushed! 13:48:00 hm 13:48:24 I wonder if anyone has developed a theory of the reals and complexes enough in a proof assistant to define the analytically continued zeta function. 13:48:26 alise, no the circle is slightly to small for the death-star 13:48:47 That requires convergent infinite sums and analytic continuation; sounds painful 13:49:16 AnMaster: That's just a continuity error 13:50:26 alise, XD 13:51:09 Dammit, I have a horrible, horrible need to give a value to the harmonic series. 13:51:37 alise, of what? the death star's resonance frequency? 13:51:48 sum(n=1, inf) 1/n 13:51:51 ah 13:51:58 alise, I preferred my interpretation :P 13:52:09 -!- maedhros777 has joined. 13:52:29 we could calculate it from the movies. Isn't it a green laser? 13:52:33 We already have values for {sum(n=1, inf) 1}, {sum(n=1, inf) n} and indeed all forms of {sum(n=1, inf) s^n} apart from n=-1. 13:53:09 by measuring exact hue on that laser it should be possible to calculate what type of laser was used 13:53:27 It's patently not a laser. 13:53:42 Phantom_Hoover, hm right, unless there is a lot of dust in space for it to reflect from 13:54:00 so some ionised plasma weapon perhaps? 13:54:06 More likely. 13:54:23 I have no idea at all about how to calculate anything on that 13:54:25 so meh 13:54:32 Although it will also be necessary to explain the behaviour of the beams when they intersect. 13:54:47 Phantom_Hoover, I don't remember that 13:54:50 what do you mean 13:54:53 Does this Aleph-null look okay? See bottom of page, reference 1 - http://corewar.co.uk/darwin 13:55:30 impomatic, the usual name I heard for it is aleph-zero 13:55:31 Yes. 13:55:32 That's fine. 13:55:33 impomatic, hm 13:55:43 That's exactly how you should write it. :) 13:55:52 Officially it's called the "superlaser", but of course there's no requirement that "superlaser" need be an instance of laser. 13:55:58 Good, thanks :-) 13:56:07 impomatic: In TeX it's written \aleph_0. 13:56:13 okay wikipedia calls it "Aleph-naught" in one place 13:56:14 i.e., letter "aleph", subscript 0. 13:56:16 I never heard that before 13:56:18 alise, ^ 13:56:22 Wikipedia calls it "aleph-null" sometimes too. 13:57:54 Wookieepedia says the death star thing is "composed of several exotic matter beams accelerated and amplified by gigantic focusing magnetic lenses and coils, producing a single powerful beam", and taking "energy from a massive hypermatter core, converting the energy present in hyperspace into highly unstable particles that were tremendously destructive in normal space". 13:58:08 Phantom_Hoover, what is the beam intersection thing you mentioned? 13:58:12 It's not exactly clear how to compute anything from the hue. 13:58:36 fizzie, where did they get that from? Is it canon? 13:59:06 AnMaster: It's from one of the EU novels; I think they have several levels of canonicality in there. 13:59:22 EU = European ....? Nah can't be... 13:59:43 oh extended universe I guess 13:59:50 I got rejected by DMOZ again. They really don't trust me to edit sections of the Open Directory! :-/ 14:00:09 impomatic, what? open directory? which year is this? 14:00:13 1995? Right? 14:00:21 AnMaster: Expanded, I think. 14:00:24 fizzie, ah 14:00:54 fizzie, anyway, I don't think you can compute anything from that description at all 14:00:59 Open Directory is still there. Listing is way out of date but still ranking well in Google. 14:01:03 since it is technoable all the way down 14:01:26 impomatic, uhu 14:01:46 I just wanted to update a couple of sections so it doesn't reflect badly on the subject. 14:02:15 Probably be better if DMOZ just got wiped off the net. 14:02:53 AnMaster: Yes, well, in a full-power shot, "the amount of energy involved were so great it would generate miniscule space-time singularities, sending part of the target's mass to hyperspace and generating a massive shockwave from high-energy tachyons from hyperspace". 14:02:57 "I see no technogabble here." 14:03:06 Gah, babble. 14:03:13 heh 14:03:31 fizzie, I didn't know Star Wars (ab)used tachyons as well 14:04:47 Anyone here know which i/o header files includes? 14:05:04 maedhros777, in what? 14:05:07 C++ 14:05:10 ah no clue 14:05:15 I know it has 14:05:21 Don't know what else, though 14:05:22 I use C not C++ 14:05:24 Ok 14:05:28 maedhros777, read the file? 14:05:29 or the spec? 14:05:32 Ok 14:05:41 Or I'll just write code and see if it compiles. 14:05:52 maedhros777, might not be portable then 14:05:55 It's for a golf thing :) 14:06:07 maedhros777, it is /usr/include/c++/4.5.0/ios here 14:06:14 Thanks 14:06:27 I can't find cstdlib in it, probably included indirectly 14:06:37 maedhros777, anyway the path will vary between systems 14:06:37 Yeah 14:06:45 the one I mentioned works on arch linux 14:06:45 But I know printf() works with it 14:06:56 do C++ requires prototypes for everything? 14:07:00 I use Ubuntu, it's a pretty similar path 14:07:00 C doesn't after all 14:07:10 What do you mean by prototypes? 14:07:24 /usr/include/c++/4.3.3/ios on my ubuntu system 14:07:29 maedhros777, uh, the usual thing? 14:07:33 ? 14:07:44 like: void foo(int); in a header? 14:07:56 Oh, yeah 14:08:03 I'm not sure if it's required 14:08:10 I always do it, though 14:08:11 maedhros777, you can leave that out in C after all, but compiler will likely warn you 14:08:18 there are good reasons to NOT leave it out 14:08:24 Yeah, it's a good idea to do so 14:08:45 I've never tried doing it otherwise, so I'm not sure if it's an error. 14:12:04 Oh wait, printf() isn't actually included with 14:12:08 Strange 14:12:25 How would this compile, then? http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?char+pyramid/nn_1271263335&cpp 14:13:19 no clue 14:13:20 Very strange 14:13:41 Maybe there's something weird with the site's C++ compiler 14:13:44 maedhros777, perhaps it does allow implicit declarations (thus skipping prototype 14:13:45 ) 14:13:50 Maybe 14:13:52 try to remove the include 14:14:00 I tried compiling it myself and it didn't work 14:14:14 Didn't recognize printf() 14:14:14 mhm 14:14:36 maedhros777, I can't see why it wouldn't compile as C99 at least 14:14:45 Yeah 14:14:51 without the include 14:16:10 Whoah...I think I'm going crazy or something...I just used #import instead of #include :) 14:16:14 Too much python 14:16:23 Or Java 14:17:10 maedhros777, that code used import yes 14:17:11 very strange 14:17:32 it might have a meaning with some preprocessors 14:17:47 I don't think anything forbids such an implementation specific extension 14:17:57 I guess 14:18:16 Maybe I should do that with the site's compiler, since it cuts down on characters 14:18:28 Objective-C has an #import preprocessor directive. 14:18:39 This is C++, though 14:18:45 Possibly the compiler recognizes it even in C++ mode, then. 14:18:53 Maybe 14:18:56 (If it is a combined C/ObjC/C++ thing.) 14:19:10 This golf site has like a million languages 14:19:16 Even brainfuck :) 14:20:36 My GCC does in C mode, albeit noisily. 14:20:38 fis@eris:~$ cat > test.c 14:20:38 #import 14:20:38 int main(void) { printf("foo\n"); return 0; } 14:20:38 fis@eris:~$ gcc -o test test.c 14:20:38 test.c:1:2: warning: #import is a deprecated GCC extension 14:20:39 fis@eris:~$ ./test 14:20:41 foo 14:20:43 maedhros777: sinh? 14:20:49 fizzie, objc++? 14:21:16 fizzie, hm GCC extension? 14:21:20 Hm... 14:21:25 now I'm interested 14:21:31 it can't be the objc thing then 14:21:32 That's gcc, though 14:21:41 maedhros777, yes, what do you use? 14:21:46 C++, so g++ 14:21:48 clang? 14:21:51 ah 14:22:10 I get the same thing from g++ too. 14:22:18 Wow, that's weird 14:22:23 Let me try it again. 14:22:23 g++ (Ubuntu 4.4.3-4ubuntu5) 4.4.3, to be exact. 14:23:17 You're right 14:23:21 Very strange 14:23:35 When was import ever used? 14:24:25 Oh wait, look at this: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/8etzzkb6%28VS.71%29.aspx 14:24:33 Yes, but that's not the GCC #import. 14:24:46 Is there a GCC #import? 14:24:56 test.c:1:2: warning: #import is a deprecated GCC extension 14:24:59 That sure looks like one. 14:25:00 Oh yeah 14:25:18 Possibly it's like the Objective-C #import, just extended to work in the C/C++ modes too. 14:25:45 I'm pretty sure it doesn't do what the even weirder Visual C++ #import does. 14:25:48 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/172262/c-include-and-import-difference 14:26:16 "Import in gcc: The import in gcc is different from the import in VC++. It is a simple way to include a header at most once only. (In VC++ and GCC you can do this via #pragma once as well)" 14:26:17 hm 14:26:31 Yeah 14:27:00 One of the answers noted the "deprecated GCC extension" warning 14:29:01 it's nice that my desktop doesn't need any file from /lib/firmware. My laptop seems to use two binary firmware blobs, one for ethernet (tg3) and one for wlan (iwlagn) 14:29:27 Uh oh 14:29:29 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Count+asterisks+ 14:29:39 I got the largest program size :) 14:29:55 For the whole thing (mine was in C++) 14:30:28 okay I'm pretty sure that the befunge93 one can only be that short by checking first char 14:30:29 I should really do this in C instead (less std::) 14:30:39 Some are cheats 14:30:56 In FlogScript, someone did it with 2 chars 14:31:08 befunge93 with 3 chars? I don't believe it 14:31:10 Gah, there it is in the manual; http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.3.6/cpp/Obsolete-once_002donly-headers.html 14:31:11 Even with cheating, i still don't understand how that's possible 14:31:25 heck not even without cheating 14:31:27 err 14:31:28 with* 14:31:35 &.@ 14:31:52 Works for the two samples anyway 14:31:55 You think it would be cheating if I checked for non-whitespace? 14:32:14 Deewiant, oh duh 14:32:23 Deewiant, what is the char code of * 14:32:28 42 14:32:50 right 14:32:52 easy then 14:33:07 Deewiant: Don't you mean ~? 14:33:20 I never remember which is which 14:33:24 Since you sound sure, I probably do 14:33:37 Deewiant: I only sound sure because I checked the spec. :p 14:33:41 So do you think looking for non-whitespace would be cheating? 14:34:07 nah 14:34:11 Ok 14:34:13 well 14:34:14 maybe 14:34:21 Maybe I'll do this in brainfuck 14:34:34 hm more than 2 chars there right? 14:34:40 Yep 14:34:40 you don't have number output 14:34:48 What do you mean? 14:35:03 maedhros777, "output as ascii code" vs. "output as number" 14:35:12 You mean in brainfuck? 14:35:14 as in printf "%d" 14:35:19 Ok 14:35:20 yeah you don't have that 14:35:39 Deewiant, I wonder what it does with the extra whitespace 14:35:42 presumably it strips it 14:36:55 heh they have asymptote 14:36:58 that's wonderful 14:37:07 no TeX or LaTeX or Plain TeX as far as I can find 14:41:02 okay how does it do the erlang thing... 14:41:16 the erlang thing? 14:41:21 in anagolf 14:41:29 I mean, it seems to require a full module 14:41:38 but what would the entry point be 14:41:49 entry is m iirc 14:41:56 ah 14:42:00 alise, arity? 14:42:07 Find out. 14:42:23 ah got it working 14:42:37 now to make it shorter 14:43:20 Darn, you beat me :) 14:43:39 I think mine is so long because of the std::'s all over the place 14:43:55 maybe I should've done "using namespace std;" 14:44:01 Although that's a lot of characters 14:44:45 I suggest not using C++ :-) 14:44:56 Ok, I'll use C 14:45:53 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 14:49:07 http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Palindromic+prime 14:49:13 I'm doing this one in C 14:50:48 alise, if you resubmit after making it shorter, is the old one removed? 14:50:50 it seems so 14:50:59 AnMaster: no? 14:51:06 if it does, that is a bug 14:51:12 alise, I used same name 14:51:13 hm 14:51:21 i don't think you should be allowed to do that 14:51:23 write shinh in #anagolf 14:51:43 alise, so you can't have multiple entries by your nick 14:51:57 eh, not anagolf 14:51:58 since I realised how to cut down on the length you see 14:51:59 I forget 14:52:05 AnMaster: that's a bug because it means anyone can overwrite 14:52:12 ah #anagol 14:52:54 -!- maedhros777 has left (?). 14:53:04 alise, it kept the minimum it seems 14:53:15 or.. I don't know 14:53:22 #anagol 14:53:34 alise, it may be me that got confused somehow 14:54:57 hm new record . lets see what happened 14:55:13 okay it definite let me overwrite 14:55:24 also, the erlang code can be made shorter if not using form 14:55:30 since you can make a shorter module name then 14:56:55 alise, mentioned it in that channel 14:57:00 lets see what happens 14:57:30 AnMaster: ping shinh about it 14:59:11 alise, no need it seems 15:00:25 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:08:04 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:08:08 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:08:17 -!- impomatic has left (?). 15:18:49 IIRC #import is identical to #include, except it is sane if you use it more than once. 15:19:47 Phantom_Hoover, yes we found that 15:20:04 OK. 15:25:14 What is the structure of a circle for complex values of x and y? 15:28:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:28:57 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:29:39 Phantom_Hoover: Complex. 15:30:49 Phantom_Hoover, what are x and y here? 15:31:06 The variables in x^2+y^2=1 15:31:12 ah 15:31:36 Phantom_Hoover, why not plot it 15:32:07 I am not sure how. 15:32:32 Phantom_Hoover, well, you take a pen or pencil and some paper 15:32:43 then you draw as required 15:32:50 But it's a 4-dimensional shape! 15:32:55 oh good point 15:33:09 Phantom_Hoover, you can maybe use x,y,z,colour? 15:33:14 iirc mathematica can do that 15:33:22 3D plot with colour function or such 15:33:26 forgot the details 15:33:45 I remember getting something that looked really hippie from something rather simple 15:33:55 Wait the Wolfram Demonstrations Project has something. 15:34:09 I remember alise said something like "what was that in my drink" or similar as a response to mentioning it in this channel 15:34:21 forgot when it was 15:34:38 grep logs from last year or a bit more 15:34:48 Or don't because it doesn't matter so much :-) 15:34:53 true 15:34:59 but iirc I pasted the code for it 15:35:02 it could help Phantom_Hoover 15:35:15 just modify the expressions required 15:35:25 same Plot3D or whatever over-all structure 15:38:58 alise, btw for some reason I'm getting more battery time on my thinkpad nowdays than when it was new 15:39:12 like from about 3 hours → about 5 hours 15:39:37 both with wlan turned off and semi-bright screen (brightest is too bright anyway in many places) 15:41:40 Phantom_Hoover, found it: http://sprunge.us/QMhM 15:41:47 it was even using complex stuff 15:41:50 so might be very useful 15:42:30 What's it a plot of? 15:43:21 Phantom_Hoover, something random as a test. Was trying to figure out how to plot something similar 15:43:33 Will play with later. 15:43:34 Phantom_Hoover, forgot what the actual function I wanted to plot was 15:43:42 Phantom_Hoover, anyway it may allow you to plot that circle 15:44:20 It'll need the circle to be implicit. 15:44:25 Byr for now. 15:44:33 Phantom_Hoover, well should work too? 15:51:02 -!- olsner has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:56:33 -!- olsner has joined. 16:11:48 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Peter_Treveris_-_engraving_of_Trepanation_for_Handywarke_of_surgeri_1525.png 16:14:16 ^_^ 16:14:58 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:15:31 -!- MizardX has joined. 16:16:45 AnMaster: That picture is so the opposite of ^_^ in every way :P 16:21:04 alise, well yes, it was "^_^" at you linking it 16:32:52 Kuratowski ordered pairs require deciding equality on sets :/ 16:33:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:34:05 oerjan! 16:34:11 g'day 16:34:23 does this mean i've been missed? 16:34:34 No, I just do that. 16:34:44 oh. 16:35:52 do you browse the logs? i've been commenting on your beta reduction questions but your connection dropped 16:36:07 Day? 16:36:18 some time last week? 16:36:31 possibly several times 16:39:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:39:49 hi oerjan 16:40:02 hi alise 16:43:34 hi oerjan 16:43:35 hi alise 16:43:42 hi uorygl 16:43:51 Hi me. 16:43:59 Hi me. 16:45:19 Aww, I was hoping we would have all six. 16:45:26 hi Adrian^L Alex3012 AnMaster augur BeholdMyGlory bsmntbombdood cal153 chickenzilla comex Deewiant FireFly fizzie Geekthras Gracenotes Gregor Ilari ineiros jcp jix Leonidas lifthrasiir Mathnerd314 MizardX mtve mycroftiv myndzi olsner P4 Phantom_Hoover pikhq pineapple Quadrescence rodgort sebbu2 SimonRC Slereah sshc wareya yiyus ZeroOne 16:45:38 * sebbu2 slaps oerjan around a bit with a very large trout 16:45:39 oerjan: deth2u 16:45:45 oerjan: yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg 16:45:47 * oerjan runs away 16:45:56 * uorygl chases oerjan. 16:46:09 it _seemed_ the obvious followup 16:46:16 TO WHOM??? 16:46:17 * sebbu2 catch oerjan and tear him apart 16:46:37 to alise, Phantom_Hoover and uorygl 16:46:50 oh wait i should have left out Phantom_Hoover in the list 16:47:01 NAMES spam can be good, because it brings a channel together against a common enemy 16:47:03 no need being _redundant_ 16:47:10 Gracenotes: I agree. 16:47:12 unless that enemy is not immediately kickbanned :| 16:47:33 or at least given a week of paid leave 16:47:35 Yeah, where's our /attack command? We should be able to drain oerjan's hitpoints. 16:48:00 * Phantom_Hoover attacks oerjan with a flash drive. 16:48:10 argh no, not the flash! 16:48:30 The inedible flash! 16:50:09 * oerjan munches the drive 16:50:17 NOT INEDIBLE 16:50:26 * Phantom_Hoover chuckles 16:50:45 The drive had poison in it! 16:50:52 eek 16:50:57 * oerjan drops dead 16:51:04 oerjan, .... 16:51:05 * oerjan rises 16:51:09 brains... 16:51:13 Turn undead! 16:51:13 * AnMaster squashes oerjan 16:51:17 AnMaster: what? 16:51:21 CIGARS ARE LIKE FLOWERS 16:51:30 oerjan, for that mass-highlight 16:51:51 oerjan, dropped a 1-gigaton weight on top of you 16:51:57 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if it's possible for a Life spaceship to travel at Phantom_Hoover: of courwse 16:52:28 Phantom_Hoover: every Life spaceship does. 16:52:28 *course 16:52:29 plenty do 16:52:30 Phantom_Hoover: um they all do 16:52:33 er 16:52:36 i think he means 16:52:39 < speed of glider 16:52:46 although that is not I'm terrible at <> 16:52:46 you cannot have a spaceship at == c iirc 16:52:52 travel at >c? 16:52:53 s/ proved impossible 16:52:58 as is =c 16:53:02 Right, for an orthogonal spaceship, the fastest speed is c/2. 16:53:04 and >c is of course impossible by definition 16:53:08 I forget the proof, but it has been proved that some spaceship is the fastest possible 16:53:28 oerjan: I wonder if we could add an "axiom" to Life that functions as a >c-travelling spaceship. Then observe the hilarious effects of time travel. 16:53:42 So you need a track? 16:53:49 oerjan, can't you do something like a tunnel iirc by placing some pattern which basically "forwards" the glider at faster than c 16:53:53 Alas, Life doesn't obey relativity. 16:54:00 of course that is cheating but I saw it in some golly example 16:54:00 AnMaster: It's an illusion. 16:54:03 you don't get time travel unless it's also invariant under lorentz transformations 16:54:11 Phantom_Hoover: right, with a track, you can go at c. 16:54:25 No effect propagates faster than c, it just looks like that. 16:54:36 Phantom_Hoover, ah possibly, I don't remember the details 16:54:39 anyone heard of an IRC bot in an esoteric language other then fungot? 16:54:39 poiuy_qwert: the fnord clan of devil-worshippers. the tramp ship and its crew remain an elusive mystery. though i saw him monstrously perched atop a mountain of beef, 16:55:08 poiuy_qwert, yes 16:55:12 AnMaster: I think it checks whether the front of the spaceship is there, and if so, puts the back on a spaceship whose front it's already produced. 16:55:12 ais had one in thue iirc 16:55:13 Alas, Life doesn't obey relativity. 16:55:15 So what! 16:55:16 Roughly speaking. 16:55:28 ah cool 16:55:28 you don't get time travel unless it's also invariant under lorentz transformations 16:55:29 MAKEIT 16:55:29 uorygl, hm perhaps 16:55:39 uorygl: i had a theory once that rule 110 _does_ obey some kind of relativity, because the speeds of many gliders seemed related by a certain function 16:55:41 Wow, you guys collectively said three lines in the time it took for me to type "Roughly speaking." 16:55:54 *MAKE IT 16:56:01 Anyway, seriously, adding axiomatic >c travellers to Life. 16:56:02 What happens? 16:56:07 however i concluded later it may just be an artifact of rule 110's "ether" structure 16:56:13 Stuff goes faster than c. 16:56:19 Stuff goes faster than c. 16:56:34 uorygl, slow typer? 16:56:38 You can do it yourself by editing it each generation. 16:57:00 I type at... let me think, I don't want to name a number that sounds impossible, so 70 WPM. 16:57:12 AnMaster: thue has sockets? 16:57:15 poiuy_qwert: netcat 16:57:15 uorygl, no idea for me 16:57:18 I type at something like 110 wpm when I'm trying. 16:57:25 More like 80-90 wpm when I'm not trying. 16:57:32 and I never measured 16:57:34 alise: thats an extension or something? 16:57:39 poiuy_qwert, ... 16:57:41 netcat 16:57:43 I wonder how fast I can type on the iPhone. 16:57:44 try man netcat 16:57:46 poiuy_qwert: no, it's just a program that hooks stdin/stdout to a network 16:57:47 in your terminal 16:57:48 or man nc 16:57:49 AnMaster: stop assuming people are on unix 16:57:50 ok i see 16:57:58 alise, I refuse to stop assuming that 16:58:06 I think it is fairly safe to say that I am an above-competent typer, since I've been doing it since I was three. 16:58:07 alise, well I can start assuming everyone is on plan9 then 16:58:09 I'm on a Mac, and even I am on Unix. 16:58:17 AnMaster: ais523's bot was in thutu(2?), not thue iirc. it supported an underload interpreter... 16:58:18 Most people are not in Unix. 16:58:19 well actually im on Mac so i should know this, but im fairly new to unix command line 16:58:20 *on 16:58:24 :X 16:58:24 oerjan, ah maybe 16:58:30 oerjan, it was so long ago 16:58:37 poiuy_qwert: It's okay not to know things. Nobody expects you to be psychic. Well, nobody reasonable. 16:58:40 oerjan: yeah it was thutu2 16:58:40 no idea if macs include nc by default 16:59:05 :P 16:59:16 Mine has nc. 16:59:19 So probably. 16:59:21 ah 17:00:08 making an IRC bot in an esoteric language has been my goal since starting esoteric languages :P 17:00:52 mhm 17:01:18 (btw it might still be that rule 110 has _some_ lorentz transformation-like thing possible, but it's probably going to require something like those life cell simulated in life things, with a time shift.) 17:03:13 oerjan: So what effects do you think a >c spaceship would have interacting with other things? 17:03:48 It really depends. 17:03:54 well almost by definition it would mean the c isn't _really_ the c for the CA... 17:03:55 hi oerjan ! 17:03:56 How does this spaceship work? 17:04:01 Hmm, I guess if you have three observers a few cells apart on the same line, and a spaceship travelling towards them, they'd see it come right next to them then disappear; the observers behind it would then experience the same. 17:04:04 Phantom_Hoover: Axiomatically. 17:04:29 Consider cells to have colour white, black or octarine; octarine cells in certain configurations are defined as moving faster than c in directions according to those configurations. 17:04:30 But do we have an extra state, or a weird change to the transition rules? 17:04:34 oerjan: true... 17:04:49 OK, so how do octarine cells react with white and black cells? 17:04:55 Phantom_Hoover: For all other purposes -- such as deciding what should happen to other cells -- octarine cells are considered as white. 17:05:08 White means dead, right? 17:05:10 And how do they themselves interact? 17:05:49 uorygl: It makes no difference, but I consider them live. 17:06:07 Dead and live are not the same thing. 17:06:10 Live makes sense in this context. 17:06:14 White means alive. 17:06:36 alise: How do octarine cells work? 17:06:42 For some reason, I think of octarine as being periwinkle, even though everyone knows it's a greenish-yellow purple. 17:06:43 Phantom_Hoover: They interact with each other in a way that encodes which direction they go. 17:06:53 How that is is unknown. 17:07:03 But suppose they exist; then what? 17:07:24 Then an effect can travel faster than c. 17:07:42 To work out all the implications we need more information. 17:07:46 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:07:48 uorygl, "periwinkle"? 17:07:51 Can an octarine arise naturally? 17:07:59 AnMaster: Purply. 17:08:01 ah 17:08:16 How about this: If there's an L- or J-tetromino within an otherwise empty 4x7 block, then the next generation, it moves forward by two. 17:08:23 An octarine cannot arise naturally. 17:08:29 OK. 17:08:32 It is an Act of God for octarine cells to exist in the initial configuration. 17:08:46 They can be destroyed by colliding with white cells as if they were themselves white. 17:09:05 So they are not indestructable, but locally in their own configuration of octarines and blacks they perform completely differently, as spaceships exceeding c. 17:09:06 And how do octarines produce more octarines? 17:09:15 alise, so they go away after 1 generation? 17:09:18 They do not; or rather, they only do so by moving more than one cell per cycle. 17:09:20 AnMaster: No. 17:09:41 hm 17:10:03 OK, so let us suppose that we have an octarine, and that each generation it dies and a new octarine is produced two cells to the right. 17:10:41 Yes, let us say that. In reality, they would be in packed configurations determining the direction. 17:10:54 However, also say that if there are other cells in its neighbourhood: 17:10:58 How about the l-tetromino? 17:11:10 Run the general algorithm to find out whether it would live or die were it white. 17:11:15 If it would life, move it two cells to the right as planned. 17:11:23 If it would die, make it dead; the spaceship is destroyed. 17:11:32 For the purposes of the algorithm in all cases, octarine cells are treat as white. 17:11:41 alise, so what if it would live but mutate into a different shape? 17:11:42 And nothing ever creates an octarine cell. 17:11:47 AnMaster: That is impossible. 17:11:49 We are talking about single cells. 17:11:51 So an octarine block would be a spaceship in a vacuum? 17:11:52 ah 17:11:53 okay 17:12:01 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, travelling at >c. 17:12:09 As, indeed, would any still-life. 17:12:19 Howso? 17:12:21 They do not move. 17:12:30 Any octarine still-life. 17:12:33 alise, depends on your reference frame 17:12:33 Yes. 17:12:41 if you are traveling at the same speed... 17:12:46 The questions are: from an "observer's" point of view, how do these spaceships work?; and how do collisions with them work? 17:12:58 AnMaster: No, CA space is not relatavistic. 17:13:06 Phantom_Hoover, it would be fun if it was! 17:13:23 s/relatavistic/relativistic/ 17:13:24 alise, so implement it and test it 17:13:33 AnMaster: I'd rather have us collectively think about it first. 17:13:39 mhm 17:13:48 What happens if an octarine would clash with a live? 17:14:18 That is a good question. 17:14:24 Phantom_Hoover, presumably one would overwrite the other, or both would die 17:14:30 It will either become octarine, become alive, or become dead. 17:14:33 These are the only choices. 17:14:36 Let the octarine override. 17:14:36 Well, let's think about collisions. 17:14:41 alise, that is what I said ;P 17:14:41 A spaceship bashes into a wall. 17:14:51 Let's say the wall is infinitely strong. 17:14:55 The spaceship is destroyed. The wall is not. 17:15:01 That is an argument for become-alive. 17:15:05 A spaceship bashes into a wall. 17:15:13 The spaceship is infinitely strong; the wall not. 17:15:19 The wall is go bye-bye; spaceship takes its place. 17:15:21 alise, what if both the spaceship and the walls are infinitely strong? 17:15:23 That is an argument for become-octarine. 17:15:25 A spaceship bashes into a wall. 17:15:28 Both are infinitely strong. 17:15:28 Remember, the spaceship is travelling at twice the speed of light. 17:15:33 The universe explodes. Both disappear. 17:15:36 That is an argument for become-dead. 17:15:53 alise, if neither is infinitely strong? 17:16:06 Well, infinitely strong really just means stronger than the other. 17:16:08 I suggest become-octarine. 17:16:11 alise, Phantom_Hoover, hm you could get quantum tunneling like effects by this 17:16:17 It seems that become-dead involves a>b, b>a. 17:16:18 if the wall and the ship are correctly aligned 17:16:19 So we can ignore that. 17:16:22 it could pass through the wall 17:16:25 without colliding 17:16:33 So which are stronger, regular still cells or fucked up faster-than-light spaceships? 17:16:37 I guess spaceships. 17:16:38 However, a wall can still destroy an octarine. 17:16:42 So it becomes octarine. 17:16:45 Phantom_Hoover: Yes; if it goes next to it. 17:16:46 AnMaster: yep 17:16:49 AnMaster: that's my main interest 17:16:53 alise, hm 17:16:59 no wait 17:17:05 let o = octarine, a = alive, . = dead 17:17:15 oa. -> depends because the a would change the octarine right? 17:17:22 o.a. -> o obliterates a 17:17:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:17:32 OK, let's now consider an octarine string. 17:17:33 so is there a configuration of octarines and alives such that octarines skip over the alives? 17:17:36 Phantom_Hoover: ^ 17:17:41 but feel free to consider 17:17:51 there could be, don't know 17:17:54 Phantom_Hoover: doesn't a line die instantly in life? 17:17:59 No. 17:18:01 ok 17:18:01 depends on how the wall looks 17:18:06 oh ofc 17:18:06 alise,: 17:18:08 ... 17:18:10 +++ 17:18:12 ... 17:18:13 ↓ 17:18:17 .+. 17:18:17 .+. 17:18:18 .+. 17:18:19 see? 17:18:21 yeah 17:18:30 this is going to be one fucked up space ship :) 17:18:41 alise, oh you mean the rotating mincer yeah ;P 17:18:55 :D 17:19:08 the rotating, CONSTANTLY ACCELERATING AT 2C, mincer 17:19:12 so if octarines can skip certain walls 17:19:17 those walls just have to be in the right place 17:19:18 alise, no I meant the +++ one 17:19:18 at the right time 17:19:20 as the mincer 17:19:21 and they will avoid death! 17:19:25 AnMaster: yes, but now imagine the +s are octarine 17:19:28 any spaceship hitting that 17:19:29 alise, ooh 17:19:53 alise, how is it constantly accelerating though? 17:19:57 so I guess octarine cells can be created 17:20:05 if we're considering the neighbourhoods of octarines 17:20:09 instead of creating whites we create octarines 17:20:14 alise, well they have to, otherwise you will always have still-lifes 17:20:16 Ooh. 17:20:17 AnMaster: because octarines move if they survive by definition 17:20:17 lives* 17:20:23 two cells to the rgith 17:20:24 *right 17:20:33 That still irks me. 17:20:35 hm 17:20:44 Phantom_Hoover: what does? 17:20:59 Life should be symmetric. 17:21:14 so it should yeah 17:21:17 Eh? 17:21:21 How is this not symmetric? 17:21:23 Oh, the rightwardsness. 17:21:31 yes 17:21:34 Phantom_Hoover: Well, the long-term plan was that certain configurations of octarines move in different definitions. 17:21:36 *directions 17:21:47 Like, we consider an 8-neighbourhood as a binary number saying direction. 17:21:50 alise, what sort of configurations 17:21:53 ah 17:22:05 Such that the "reversal" of a configuration moves in the opposite direction. 17:22:08 Ta-dah, symmetry. 17:22:13 This requires breaking more rules though. 17:22:16 So neighbourhood%4=direction? 17:22:28 Phantom_Hoover: Something like that, let us say. A neighbourhood of octarines and blacks, that is. 17:22:32 you forgot non-cardinal then 17:22:33 :/ 17:22:46 OTOH, symmetry is still destroyed. 17:24:28 yes 17:24:31 Phantom_Hoover: but perhaps this is the Key 17:24:59 Maybe consider the Moore neighbourhood for 2 cells around? 17:25:15 alise, anyway, isn't this by definition defining the value of c in this CA? 17:25:25 AnMaster: Probably. But ssh. 17:25:28 Phantom_Hoover: Sure. 17:25:39 Define c as one cell per generation. Problem solved. :P 17:25:59 alise, I think you need a relativistic CA for c to become interesting 17:26:06 but I can't imagine how that would happen 17:26:19 Well. Let's do it. 17:26:20 relativistic CA I mean 17:26:22 Wolfram would be proud. 17:26:24 Relativity sort of implies non-discrete time and space. 17:26:45 Phantom_Hoover, exactly the issue yeah 17:26:46 And speed isn't an integral concept. 17:27:16 It's a term we use to describe the behaviour of patterns that regenerate themselves somewhere else. 17:29:09 Reminds me of that esolang... Gravity iirc 17:29:11 Hey, we can invent discrete relativity. 17:29:13 wasn't it uncomputable? 17:29:19 AnMaster: yes 17:29:23 AnMaster: yes and no 17:29:26 hm? 17:29:26 it's complicated 17:29:38 OK, so how do we define speed axiomatically? 17:29:39 well uncomputable in general iirc 17:29:44 In a CA? 17:29:53 alise, that might work too, but I can't figure out how you get discrete relativistic effects 17:29:54 Phantom_Hoover: Let's NOT! 17:30:02 Yesiree, relativity without primitive time! 17:30:09 Or if that's not possible, eh, we'll Work Something Out. 17:30:13 hah 17:30:21 Then how do we work out any relativistic effects? 17:30:44 well, yes time will pass at different rates in different parts due to relativity. Well not different parts. For different observers rather. 17:31:19 Phantom_Hoover: Cleverly. 17:31:20 we would still have a c, but it would be relative observer, no? 17:31:24 Hmm, we need a physicist here. 17:31:28 I'm not one 17:31:29 If we haven't defined *what* speed is, we can't do relativity. 17:31:51 It doesn't really make sense for non-spaceshippy objects. 17:32:08 what doesn't? speed? relativity? 17:32:38 anyway, why do we need a discrete CA? 17:32:48 why not make a non-discrete one? 17:32:52 Because CA's *are* discrete! 17:32:58 They're *cellular*! 17:33:20 A continuous CA has several problems, such as: not being a CA; and being uncomputable. 17:33:21 As in, composed of *discrete cells*! 17:33:27 ah the latter is a problem 17:33:32 Phantom_Hoover: Well, we need to define a notion of another cell being the "heir" of another cell. 17:33:33 maybe 17:33:43 Then the speed is the distance between a cell and its heir across a generation. 17:33:57 alise: This would have to be held as a cell state. 17:34:10 Nope. 17:34:14 Phantom_Hoover, actually it is a CA even if not discrete. Except CA now stands for Continuous Automaton ;P 17:34:18 Not if we define the CA such that we have some equation. 17:34:25 Such that given a cell and its neighbourhood, we can point to its heir. 17:34:37 The cells are each in a discrete state, right? 17:35:05 Yes. 17:35:20 And that's the only data held about them? 17:35:31 Yes. But the neighbourhood provides more information. 17:35:55 So... it's reversible? 17:36:15 No? 17:36:18 Life isn't reversible. 17:36:20 Phantom_Hoover, to it's heir, not to it's parents 17:36:22 quite different 17:36:24 Oh. 17:36:27 the latter would be reversible 17:36:27 AnMaster: *its 17:36:29 And what AnMaster said. 17:37:00 alise, how can we get anything relativistic from this though 17:37:22 By relativistic effects we mean contraction and time dilation, right? 17:37:22 alise, time slowing down or such depending on observers sounds like something we should have 17:37:25 Well, my definition gives us a definition of speed. 17:37:29 Phantom_Hoover, that sort of stuff yes 17:37:35 Then we just need to sort of discretise the relativity formulas and tweak them a bit. 17:37:46 not sure it is so simple 17:37:46 alise: Cells from heir? 17:37:58 alise, also is this special relativity only? 17:38:05 Duh. 17:38:12 CAs can't have gravity/ 17:38:21 Well, don't. 17:38:27 It might be possible. 17:38:33 Phantom_Hoover: Consider a notion of distance xDy. 17:38:40 why not. you could compute some sort of average by number of alive cells at any point 17:38:51 alise: OK. 17:38:54 Given two pairs of coordinates (a,b) and (c,d) (a,b)D(c,d) is some distance metric on them, such that (a,b)D(a,b) = 0. 17:38:57 with some function to reduce weight when further away 17:38:58 And probably some other properties too. 17:39:21 alise: So we define speed as the distance from the heir? 17:39:22 Then consider the heir of a cell (x,y) according to its state and its neighbourhood being a set of coordinates (xH,yH). 17:39:38 Then the amount a cell (x,y) moved across a generation is (x,y)D(xH,yH). 17:39:42 i go away to make food and here you go reinventing _my_ idea of relativistic CAs. shame on you. 17:39:56 That is, for the generation, its speed was (x,y)D(xH,yH). 17:39:58 Phantom_Hoover, with something like inverse square root you would get newtownian gravity. I don't really know the formulas for general relativity style gravity, but can't see why something similar shouldn't work (but with a different function of course) 17:40:01 Of course, its speed can change. 17:40:05 Phantom_Hoover: Good enough? 17:40:31 OK. 17:40:33 So, let's not say speed, let's say velocity. 17:40:40 Also... 17:40:49 alise, by that definition classical life would have a velocity of 1 right? 17:40:51 Should we just write (a,b) - (c,d) instead of distance? 17:40:57 (a,b) - (c,d) = (a - c, b - d) 17:40:58 or hm 17:41:03 is this manhattan distance? 17:41:07 or straight line? 17:41:09 alise, ^ 17:41:21 AnMaster: Classical life has no heirs. 17:41:24 I don't think you can define a good notion of heir for Life. 17:41:29 alise, hm true 17:41:52 anyway should we use straight distance or manhattan distance? 17:41:53 Also, you can't have cells with non-integer speeds. 17:42:04 alise, and wouldn't the distance vary with velocity (relativistic effects) 17:42:10 -!- soupdragon has joined. 17:42:16 AnMaster: Manhattan seems appropriate. 17:42:18 AnMaster: Well, 17:42:22 (a,b)-(c,d)=(a-c,b-d) 17:42:28 Is this Manhattan or straight? 17:42:47 uh... that is a vector between them 17:42:52 which is not a distance as such 17:42:56 Well, yes. 17:42:59 But velocity is a vector. 17:43:02 Well. 17:43:04 No. 17:43:07 But what I meant by velocity is. 17:43:11 did you get my message alise 17:43:12 manhattan is |a-c| + |b-d| 17:43:15 soupdragon: no 17:43:17 alise, momentum? 17:43:34 Silly with no concept of mass. 17:43:47 Phantom_Hoover, well okay, bad word choice 17:43:47 Let us define: 17:43:49 (a,b)-(c,d)=(a-c,b-d) 17:43:49 (a,b)(c,d)=\|a-c\|+\|b-d\| 17:43:52 urgh 17:43:53 okay 17:43:54 let me write it out 17:43:55 Phantom_Hoover, but isn't momentum a vector? 17:43:59 (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d) 17:44:00 I might misremember 17:44:03 (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d| 17:44:04 Good? 17:44:04 Yes, it is. 17:44:14 Phantom_Hoover, do photons have a momentum? 17:44:18 Yes. 17:44:19 Then "v = (x,y)D(xH,yH)", yes? 17:44:22 Don't ask me how. 17:44:24 Phantom_Hoover, they have no mass 17:44:30 so well if reality can do it... 17:44:33 That's why solar sails work. 17:44:34 why can't we 17:44:39 Phantom_Hoover, yes they have energy 17:44:39 And those spinny glass things. 17:44:46 what spinny glass things? 17:44:49 Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood. 17:44:49 (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d) 17:44:49 (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d| 17:44:49 Name (x,y)-(xH,yH). 17:44:49 Name (x,y)D(xH,yH). 17:44:52 ^ DO SO 17:45:07 AnMaster: We have no concept of energy, either. 17:45:13 Phantom_Hoover, good point 17:45:25 Phantom_Hoover, but we would with some general relativity :P 17:45:37 alise, what do you mean Name? 17:45:38 AnMaster: E^2 - (pc)^2 = (mc^2)^2, where only the whole thing is 0 for a photon 17:45:38 Which is why relativity is silly in the first place. 17:45:45 d((a,b),(c,d)) = |a-c| + |b-d| 17:45:47 thants manhattor 17:45:49 AnMaster: give them variable names and give them names like "velocity", etc 17:45:59 alise, ah 17:46:03 soupdragon: repeat the message plz 17:46:14 it was stupid 17:46:18 I don't want you to read it 17:46:23 alise, anyway I say this won't work since you can't get time slowdown and distance reduction (whatever they were called, forgot) 17:46:26 at least 17:46:31 I can't see how you can get that 17:46:35 soupdragon: well... tell me anyway! 17:46:37 as you approach some speed c 17:46:46 its in the log but dont read it 17:46:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Too much chat). 17:46:56 I won't; which day so I know which day not to read? 17:47:01 XD 17:47:09 I am not joking! 17:47:11 Usually I logread every day. 17:47:36 Anyway, name them dammit! 17:47:49 hm 17:47:52 alise, no idea 17:48:02 Sheesh, you do it Phantom_Hoover. 17:48:05 Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood. 17:48:05 (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d) 17:48:05 (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d| 17:48:05 Name (x,y)-(xH,yH). 17:48:05 Name (x,y)D(xH,yH). 17:48:08 alise, but I can't see how you can get relativistic effects from it :( 17:48:18 AnMaster: well after this we'll define relative velocity... 17:48:24 ah hm 17:48:42 alise, we need some fixed light speed to get any relativistic effects, no? 17:48:50 yes, but let's name these first :P 17:48:56 or some other absolute for every observer 17:48:57 Wait, we need not to have a fixed reference, right? 17:49:25 So no still-lifes. 17:49:26 Phantom_Hoover, how would we get relativistic effects between observers then? 17:49:56 Relative velocity. 17:50:40 hm 17:50:56 The simulator can, of course, have a fixed reference. 17:51:02 and how would that be ensured to have relativistic effects? 17:51:17 Phantom_Hoover: NAME IT DOG GAMMIT 17:51:17 It just needs to be inaccessible to any patterns. 17:51:21 Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood. 17:51:22 (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d) 17:51:22 (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d| 17:51:22 Name (x,y)-(xH,yH). 17:51:22 Name (x,y)D(xH,yH). 17:51:38 Fred! 17:51:42 13:09:59 Message to alise from the roughly 4 days in the past: 17:51:42 13:10:20 Ï€/√8 = 1 + 1/3 - 1/5 - 1/7 + 1/9 + 1/11 - ... 17:51:42 13:10:21 Ï€^2/8 = 1 + 1/3^2 + 1/5^2 + 1/7^2 + 1/9^2 + 1/11^2 + ... 17:51:42 13:10:39 End 17:51:45 this is the thing i must not read yeah? 17:51:53 yer 17:52:15 Phantom_Hoover, but isn't the point of relativity that, from any given observer everyone else is moving no faster than light? 17:52:23 Indeed. 17:52:34 Wait, no. 17:52:37 no? 17:52:40 Hubble and such. 17:52:47 Phantom_Hoover, hm? 17:52:51 Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood. 17:52:51 (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d) 17:52:52 (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d| 17:52:52 Name (x,y)-(xH,yH). 17:52:52 Name (x,y)D(xH,yH). 17:52:55 soupdragon: fine, you name the above :-) 17:52:57 Things can appear to be travelling faster than light due to space's expansion. 17:53:12 alise: Call them displacement and distance! 17:53:14 Phantom_Hoover, well okay but without that expansion it can't happen right? 17:53:16 the heir being the cell that (x,y) is considered to have "moved to". 17:53:22 alise, well one should be distance 17:53:24 (xH,yH) is always alive 17:53:28 nmae? 17:53:29 what 17:53:30 Phantom_Hoover: which is which? 17:53:31 the other one yeah displacement sounds nice 17:53:37 alise, D is distance 17:53:39 it's taxicab/madhatter metric 17:53:43 right 17:53:45 madhatter lol 17:53:50 :D 17:53:52 displacement and distance start with the same letter 17:53:56 give them variable names :P 17:53:59 alise, x 17:54:03 no 17:54:06 that's a variable! 17:54:09 ;P 17:54:12 should one be called velocity? 17:54:27 alise, delta also starts with d 17:54:29 so hm 17:54:30 No. 17:54:47 alise, none of them are velocity afaik? 17:54:49 AnMaster: could use the uppercase delta 17:54:52 or even the lowercase 17:55:04 oh you mean the greek letter heh 17:55:06 Δ or δ 17:55:18 and use that for displacement, yeah? 17:55:23 the former is what you use for distance delta 17:55:24 δ clashes with derivaterivy stuff but meh 17:55:28 normally 17:55:29 yeah 17:55:45 alise, Δ clashes with derivaterivy too, no? 17:55:52 yeah... but we're not doing derivatives 17:55:54 alise, how do you write delta? 17:55:56 since that's real, continuous stuff 17:56:00 and we're in a finite world 17:56:03 Phantom_Hoover, copy and paste from alise 17:56:05 Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood. 17:56:05 (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d) 17:56:05 (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d| 17:56:05 δ = (x,y)-(xH,yH). 17:56:05 Δ = (x,y)D(xH,yH). 17:56:05 that is how 17:56:06 δ is displacement; Δ is distance. 17:56:16 we can say delta and Delta for convenience. 17:56:22 -!- lament has joined. 17:56:23 alise, now that is confusing 17:56:23 or \delta and \Delta if that is not unambiguous enough for you. 17:56:27 fine 17:56:30 whatever :P 17:56:34 anyway 17:56:37 let's define velocity now 17:56:38 OK, so δ can have negative numbers. 17:56:39 Δ is the other finite derivative 17:56:53 And Δ must have positives. 17:57:07 δ is not a number 17:57:10 it is a vector 17:57:17 can be a negative vector 17:57:18 Yes, that's what I meant/ 17:57:20 right. 17:57:20 but well 17:57:22 yes 17:57:26 Ok. 17:57:32 what is you reference frame 17:57:36 for that vector 17:57:37 So, how does stuff accelerate 17:57:40 I mean, relative what? 17:57:43 δ is unrestricted; Δ is > 0 17:57:49 AnMaster: we have not defined velocity 17:57:55 so it does not matter yet i think 17:58:02 Phantom_Hoover: don't we need velocity to define acceleration? 17:58:24 alise, it does, you need a coordinate system to have a vector in if you want to put any numbers to it 17:58:33 which you need for that definition 17:58:38 Since time is discrete, displacement and velocity are pretty much equivalent. 17:58:46 Phantom_Hoover: True. 17:58:47 hm probably 17:58:47 hello 17:58:49 hello 17:58:51 hello 17:58:53 soupdragon, ...? 17:58:54 hello 17:58:56 why the spam 17:58:56 So why not call (x,y)-(xH,yH) v, for velocity? 17:58:58 hello 17:59:02 soupdragon, stop spamming 17:59:02 soupdragon: stfu 17:59:04 hello 17:59:05 Phantom_Hoover: ^ 17:59:07 So why not call (x,y)-(xH,yH) v, for velocity? 17:59:12 any ops around? 17:59:13 OK. 17:59:18 oerjan? 17:59:22 hm he stopped 17:59:23 good 17:59:24 Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood. 17:59:24 (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d) 17:59:24 (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d| 17:59:24 v = (x,y)-(xH,yH). 17:59:24 d = (x,y)D(xH,yH). 17:59:25 hello 17:59:25 v is velocity/displacement; d is distance. 17:59:27 no 17:59:29 soupdragon, stop it 17:59:31 Good? 17:59:38 fizzie: lament: 17:59:42 stop fucking overreacting for christs sake 17:59:47 please hit soupdragon with a bat 17:59:48 alise, works 17:59:49 alise: Call d speed. 17:59:50 you idiots 17:59:51 a bat of pain 17:59:59 and what Phantom_Hoover said 18:00:03 oerjan, oerjan, oerjan 18:00:08 Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood. 18:00:08 (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d) 18:00:08 (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d| 18:00:08 v = (x,y)-(xH,yH). 18:00:08 -!- cheater2 has joined. 18:00:10 d = (x,y)D(xH,yH). 18:00:12 v is velocity/displacement; d is speed/distance(sort of). 18:00:12 Phantom_Hoover, he is not connected 18:00:25 Oh, yeah. 18:00:26 god it's like a bunch of stupid idiots in here 18:00:30 what the fucka 18:00:30 -!- nooga has joined. 18:00:30 OK. 18:00:33 We still have yet to define how to calculate a heir; it depends on the actual CA rules, so we'll just leave it as postulated for now. 18:00:36 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19txZDTkbBw CTO 18:00:56 OK, so how does stuff accelerate? 18:00:57 Phantom_Hoover: We should define relative velocity now, yeah? 18:01:22 alise, and that must have an upper bound. I'm pretty sure we don't get relativistic effects otherwise 18:01:26 I don't see any problem with using the usual http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_velocity definition. 18:01:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 18:01:57 Did I miss anything? 18:02:02 OK, so how does stuff accelerate? 18:02:02 Phantom_Hoover: We should define relative velocity now, yeah? 18:02:02 alise, and that must have an upper bound. I'm pretty sure we don't get relativistic effects otherwise 18:02:02 I don't see any problem with using the usual http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_velocity definition. 18:02:08 that is what you missed 18:02:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19txZDTkbBw <- my 8080 crunching some numbers 18:02:28 :D 18:02:36 alise, it needs to be manhattan/madhatter distance or such 18:02:43 or well 18:02:53 it is 18:02:55 Manhattan relative velocity 18:02:55 (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d| 18:02:58 hm true 18:03:00 Let (xH,yH) be the heir of (x,y) according to its neighbourhood. 18:03:00 (a,b)-(c,d) = (a-c, b-d) 18:03:01 (a,b)D(c,d) = |a-c| + |b-d| 18:03:01 v = (x,y)-(xH,yH). 18:03:01 d = (x,y)D(xH,yH). 18:03:03 v is velocity/displacement; d is speed/distance(sort of). 18:03:05 Let v[(x,y)] be v with the specified (x,y), and so on. 18:03:06 probably carries over to the relative 18:03:07 Relative velocity: 18:03:08 OMG ALISE STOP SPAMMING DUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 18:03:09 v[A rel B] = v[A] - v[B] 18:03:11 The interesting thing here is that it depends on the heirs of two separate 18:03:13 particles, that will "move" into their new positions this generation. 18:03:16 IHELPP!!!!!! ARE THERE ANY OPS I CANT HANDLE THIS 18:03:19 soupdragon: seriously just shut up. 18:03:20 fucking pathetic 18:03:24 ... 18:03:24 :[ 18:03:31 nooga: i'll watch that vid now 18:03:33 it doesn't need sound right 18:03:37 but yes that paste was uncalled for kind of 18:03:47 AnMaster: I wsa just putting the current state of play 18:03:48 *was 18:03:56 I'll use pastie now it's big, swear. 18:03:56 alise, we need pastebin very soon 18:03:58 yeah 18:04:03 Do you know which stores would sell Latin suited tarot cards? 18:04:08 nooga: that 8088 is a masterpiece 18:04:13 alise, sprunge! 18:04:14 ;P 18:04:20 nooga: I've revised my opinion of you, for making a custom 8088 computer from scratch you are cool 18:04:27 ; 18:04:34 beh 18:04:40 i need to get RAM working 18:04:45 Phantom_Hoover_: so 18:04:51 we have up to relative velocity 18:04:51 and then move to multiprocessor configuration 18:04:55 that'd be awesome 18:04:56 :D 18:04:56 we should define acceleration, right? 18:04:59 well 18:05:17 Remember, no momentum. 18:05:20 Let (x,y)H be (xH,yH) 18:05:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:05:28 then we have the distance between two movings: 18:05:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 18:05:43 nooga, next one: built it from simple logic DIP things. I suggest the 74HC* series 18:05:49 as in the cpu itself from that 18:05:50 |d[A] - d[AH]| 18:05:54 which becomes 18:06:08 |(x,y)D(xH,yH) - (xH,yH)D(xHH,yHH)| 18:06:10 which becomes 18:06:29 | |x-xH| + |y-yH| - |xH-xHH| + |yH-yHH| | 18:06:47 AnMaster: i thought about that but then i realized it would be too big to assembe it without mistakes 18:06:54 nooga, ah 18:07:07 well, brb 18:07:11 nooga, for multi-cpu won't you need some kind of MMU? 18:07:19 alise: OK, so how does a cell get delta-v? 18:07:24 | |x-xH| + |y-yH| - |xH-xHH| + |yH-yHH| | = can we simplify this? 18:07:51 nooga, I mean, to avoid collision they need to sync somehow when accessing the shared ram 18:07:52 Phantom_Hoover: so then we have the accelleration between two instants 18:07:58 Abses make everything tricky. 18:07:58 so we just have to generalise that 18:08:02 I have built a simulation of CPU using a simulation of logic components 18:08:13 OK, but what causes acceleration? 18:08:14 zzo38, nice 18:08:38 hmm 18:08:48 gravity 18:08:54 alise, I don't think we can simplify past an abs() no. Not without loosing some possible values 18:09:00 right 18:09:04 it's kind of like square + square root when it comes to that 18:09:06 anyway that is |d[A] - d[AH]| 18:09:12 in fact it is pretty much exactly like that 18:09:25 Difference of speed across two generations: |d[A] - d[AH]| 18:09:36 Difference of speed across three generations: |d[A] - d[AH] - d[AHH]| 18:09:43 eh 18:09:49 alise, why the middle term? 18:09:49 No. 18:09:52 oh right 18:09:55 Difference of speed across three generations: |d[A] - d[AHH]| 18:10:00 Difference of speed across n generations: |d[A] - d[A{H^n}]| 18:10:13 wait, do we need relative speed? 18:10:14 yes 18:10:20 OK, but what about the cells causes that? 18:10:21 can we define that in the same way as relative velocity? 18:10:46 can't you just take manhattan distance of the relative velocity? 18:10:49 y/n? 18:11:01 Surely relative speed is just the difference? 18:11:06 so is relative velocity 18:11:21 should we rename d to s, if it's being called speed? 18:11:22 alise, we still haven't got any relativistic effects here 18:11:29 AnMaster: We have to freaking build a foundation first. 18:11:42 alise, this is a newtonian+manhattan foundation :/ 18:12:02 Difference of velocity across n generations: v[A{H^n}] - v[A] 18:12:02 Difference of speed across n generations: s[A{H^n}] - s[A] 18:12:06 should this be v[A] - ... 18:12:10 or ... - v[A]? 18:12:12 Yes, but we need to *define* acceleration and velocity before we can start on relativity. 18:12:36 you're doing this backward 18:12:37 Phantom_Hoover, but won't those be defined differently when you have relativity? 18:12:49 also you don't even know about lagrangian density . 18:12:55 so it's basically a joke 18:13:07 thenagain if your having fun hwatever 18:13:14 Good morrow 18:13:17 Phantom_Hoover: Difference of speed across n generations: s[A{H^n}] - s[A] 18:13:17 or 18:13:23 Difference of speed across n generations: s[A] - s[A{H^n}] 18:13:24 AnMaster: Yes, but it's helpful to have an idea as to what they look like. 18:13:25 or with an abs? 18:13:28 relative velocity/speed don't have abses 18:13:33 Phantom_Hoover, hm 18:13:33 so I'm sort of averse to using an abs there 18:13:48 Relative speed has an abs. 18:13:53 As speed is a scalar. 18:14:00 ah, good point 18:14:03 hm 18:14:09 and difference of speed too 18:14:10 Difference of speed across n generations: |s[A{H^n}] - s[A]| 18:14:10 presumabl 18:14:11 y 18:14:15 (s is the new name for d) 18:14:20 but 18:14:23 Difference of velocity across n generations: v[A{H^n}] - v[A] 18:14:24 or 18:14:27 alise, don't we have non-integer speeds here? 18:14:29 Difference of velocity across n generations: v[A] - v[A{H^n}] 18:14:32 AnMaster: no 18:14:37 alise, I mean, consider a velocity of (1,1) 18:14:40 what is the speed? 18:14:41 Incidentally relative speed is s[A rel AH] 18:14:42 oh wait 18:14:43 forgot 18:14:45 manhattan 18:14:46 duh 18:14:52 I need to wake up or something 18:15:15 alise, what is []? 18:15:25 http://pastie.org/961772.txt?key=owdr0qfbg56tuesrlbceg 18:15:27 Let v[(x,y)] be v with the specified (x,y), and so on. 18:15:30 so 18:15:31 v = (x,y)-(xH,yH). 18:15:39 hm 18:15:41 v[A] where A=(a,b) is (a,b)-(aH,bH) 18:15:49 read x[y] as x subscript y 18:15:54 so a directed finite distance? 18:15:55 since that's how it'd be rendered normally 18:16:02 that is, a vector from a specific point 18:16:12 Phantom_Hoover: so we have differences of velocity and speed across n generations 18:16:13 alise, right? 18:16:22 AnMaster: I guess so 18:16:28 Phantom_Hoover: how should we define acceleration? 18:16:53 Are we talking about its mechanism? 18:16:57 alise, mathematically vectors have a length and direction. But not an x,y location or anything such 18:17:09 Hmm, well ordinarily we'd do a = dv/dt where v(t) is velocity at a certain time 18:17:15 Hey!! 18:17:18 This is the finite calculus! 18:17:22 hurffff 18:17:22 Phantom_Hoover, I think the answer is "not yet" 18:17:27 a = Delta v(t) 18:17:30 did Isay that earlier 18:17:31 ? 18:17:32 a = v(t+1) - v(t) 18:17:36 oh wait nobody was listening to me AS USUAL 18:17:37 where 1 is the smallest time increment, one generation 18:17:46 soupdragon, only because you were rather rude 18:17:49 NO U 18:18:35 I hate being smarter than everyone 18:19:15 sucks at social skills though. not enough data to figure out your intelligence 18:19:36 alise, wait, smallest time increment? 18:19:45 sec 18:19:46 alise, we can't get the relativistic time effects then can we? 18:19:48 I'm writing stuff out 18:19:56 soupdragon: funny, thinking you're smarter than everyone else is a sure sign you aren't 18:19:57 so go away 18:20:02 fuck off alise 18:20:07 it was a joke 18:20:12 AnMaster 18:20:19 semaphore 18:20:22 nooga, hm? 18:20:25 what do you mean 18:20:56 i'll try to make semaphores on various sections of RAM 18:21:13 why is everyone so nasty to me 18:21:34 ah 18:21:35 soupdragon: because you are nasty to them 18:21:52 hm 18:22:01 does that idiom exist in English as well? 18:22:03 and write a kernel that runs on single processor and controls other units 18:22:05 "waking up on the wrong side" 18:22:08 alise, ^ 18:22:10 Indeed. 18:22:10 \o/ 18:22:11 | 18:22:11 |\ 18:22:14 broken 18:22:16 AnMaster: yes 18:22:21 waking up on the wrong side of the bed 18:22:23 I definitely think soupdragon did that 18:22:23 \o/ 18:22:23 | 18:22:24 /´\ 18:22:35 alise, ah right, in Sweden we skip the "of the bed" bit 18:22:47 Another bot? 18:22:59 Phantom_Hoover, no a script of a non-bot 18:23:03 never seen that guy talk though 18:23:04 in Poland we say "To get up with the left leg." 18:23:11 nooga, that's strange 18:23:17 In soviet russia we say "Bed gets out of you" 18:23:26 maybe 18:23:29 idioms are idioms 18:23:51 nooga, good point 18:24:04 anyway how will you do the semaphores? 18:24:30 nooga, you need some sort of low level arbiter if both requests to read/write arrive at once 18:24:36 some kind of bus ownership or whatever 18:25:11 you can't have more than one device writing on a bus at once. (well you can but it isn't a good idea...) 18:25:15 Incidentally, we're going to have to write the simulator for this ourselves. 18:25:24 Phantom_Hoover, well yes, and? 18:25:31 I bet alise will do it. 18:25:42 once he thinks of a name for it 18:25:45 and so on 18:26:09 (and invented three separate OS and one replacement for the concept of file systems) 18:26:16 (invented, not actually wrote them) 18:26:18 ;P 18:27:13 Then acceleration, a, is 18:27:13 a = Delta v(t) 18:27:14 = v(t+1) - v(t) 18:27:14 = v[A rel A{H^t+1}] - v[A rel A{H^t}] 18:27:14 = v[A] - v[A{H^t+1}] - v[A] - v[A{H^t}] 18:27:14 = A - AH - A{H^t+1} - A{H^t+2} - A - AH - A{H^t} - A{H^t+1} 18:27:16 = -2 AH - 2 A{H^t+1} - A{H^t+2} - A{H^t} 18:27:26 That seems a very strange result. 18:27:28 alise, what? 18:27:34 What is rel? 18:27:35 Oh, man, it /is/ the wrong way around. 18:27:41 sec, just rewriting it 18:27:45 then I'll pastie the whole thing 18:27:48 alise, also where did the abs() go? 18:27:52 sssh 18:28:27 I had idea making up a new pack of cards. 18:28:30 I don't believe you can get rid of all abs() quite that easily... 18:28:57 The case has multiple compartments, for four decks of cards, poker chips, pegs, dice, etc 18:28:57 v = (x,y)-(xH,yH). 18:28:58 s = (x,y)D(xH,yH). 18:28:59 this is wrong 18:29:01 it should be 18:29:08 v = (xH,yH)-(x,y) 18:29:09 zzo38, make 3D cards. 18:29:10 AnMaster: I know 18:29:13 (whatever that means) 18:29:27 nooga, so how are you going to solve both trying to write at once? 18:29:48 The cards have the suit/number also written in horizontal in the right corner as well as the suit/number vertical on the left corner, so that you can see the suit even if arranged the cards in a different order 18:29:55 zzo38, also it would be funnier with a comma between "poker" and "chips" 18:29:56 ;P 18:29:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:30:05 oerjan, wb 18:30:12 AnMaster: Hahahahahaha I suppose it is funny. But that's just the joke 18:30:20 alise, link oerjan to our current draft... 18:30:36 in a sec 18:30:38 good 18:30:44 didn't he say he had some idea for it? 18:30:45 oerjan, no? 18:30:51 Ii didn't think about the details yet but still, multiprocessor is my goal :D 18:30:52 oerjan, how far did you get with that idea? 18:31:12 Four packs of cards, one with blue checkerboard pattern on back, one with red checkerboard pattern on back, and two with spiders on back (both identical, and also invertible). 18:31:32 The blue checkerboard cards and one of the spiders pack has blue dots next to the number on the front of the cards. 18:31:40 not very far. i was sort of hoping rule 110 was an example. 18:31:43 probably i would need some clever piece of hardware that buffers output of units 18:31:57 The outside of the case is also a checkerboard, cribbage board, and with an arrow so you can keep track of who is dealer or whatever. 18:31:57 oerjan, huh? 18:32:45 rule 110 has lots of gliders of various speeds, as you'd expect from a CA with relativistic features 18:33:01 And since the game has eight jokers in all, each joker can be differently on the front. Each deck has one black and one red joker (indicated by black/red star where the number/suit gues), and different designs on the front. 18:33:04 oerjan, but was it relativistic? 18:33:25 oerjan, and doesn't GOL have gliders at various speeds too? 18:33:28 i never found a working lorentz transformation (which would have had to be one-way btw) 18:33:33 Like, one joker might have one suit on each edge, one might have roman numbers I to IV on each edge, one might be V to VIII, etc. In the middle of the design, there might be reference to poker hands or whatever else might go there. 18:33:51 well i suppose it does 18:33:52 This is one way of keeping track of trump suits. 18:33:52 zzo38, very... elaborate... 18:34:00 As well as other things. 18:34:02 but I fail to see what such a pack is good for 18:34:20 -!- Alex3012 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:34:42 oerjan, hm? what do you mean lorentz transformations? 18:34:51 anyway a "real" relativistic CA should have at least some working lorentz transformations 18:34:51 oerjan, also how do you get time dilation in rule 110? 18:34:56 -!- Alex3012 has joined. 18:35:05 There is one other thing I forgot: On each card, there is an arrow to the left of the right indicators. It is pointing upwards if you are holding the card one way, downwards if you hold the card the other way. 18:35:13 a lorentz transformation is the map for changing coordinates in relativity 18:35:17 oerjan, ah 18:35:39 AnMaster: I am not discussing a single pack, but rather, a case containing four decks as well as other things. 18:35:55 zzo38, so a traveling gaming kit? 18:35:56 I called this set ULTRACARD. 18:35:58 once you have that, time dilation is obvious, since gliders map into different speed gliders with it 18:36:05 travel* 18:36:16 oerjan, interesting 18:36:18 about the GOL 18:36:24 Yes, it can be travel card game, but it can be used for other things as well, even. 18:36:35 oerjan, I think this is more advanced than what we are doing. Hope alise post that link soon 18:36:42 You can easily tell which are single and double packs of cards, even! 18:36:46 AnMaster: i'm rewriting it a bit, see /msg 18:36:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:36:59 oerjan: what /we're/ doing is badly translating basic physics into CA terms 18:37:02 i don't even know whether a CA lorentz transformation is possible, fwiw 18:37:04 And many cards games might use some extra equipment, which is included here. 18:37:25 at least a reversible one. 18:37:29 Also I think my design of the jokers is improved way of design of jokers. 18:37:39 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:37:54 did you know that if you display tha CA grid from a perspective of obserfver placed on the grid and taking assumption that information travels with the speed of one square per tick 18:38:14 you get a doppler effect when glider approaches the observer? 18:38:57 I don't see how, if it is not relativistic space? 18:39:06 oerjan, what about contraction though? 18:39:16 oerjan, the other special relativity effect 18:39:18 (iirc) 18:40:24 AnMaster: those are connected really. basically the lorentz transformation i'm thinking of is approximately a linear/affine map of one spacetime to the other, preserving the maximal speed (as in ordinary relativity) 18:40:34 zzo38: since you add the speed of information... 18:40:57 from that it follows that the transformed versions of things will seem contracted and dilated 18:42:08 rule 110 was interesting because the maximal speed within its "ether" grid pattern is _not_ 1 as it is for the full automaton 18:42:31 also the ether grid pattern _looks_ sort of time shifted already 18:43:01 (the shortest repetition is something like 4 steps left, 1 step forward in time) 18:43:05 hm 18:44:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:44:29 oerjan, also general relativity of some sort. At least I see that as a good if we get something working for special. It would be rather trivial to define gravity in any given point anyway 18:45:08 general relativity is immensely more complicated than special 18:45:36 But it makes no sense in this context. 18:45:39 oerjan, pseduo-general then 18:46:07 a non-fixed spacetime is sort of the _essence_ of it, the opposite of a CA 18:46:33 oerjan, well you could define alive cells to have a mass of 1, then compute "mass-something" in any given point by looking at neighbourhood with a function to reduce the importance of far-away cells 18:46:36 I heard wolfram is doing some work in this area 18:46:52 oerjan, shouldn't that work for finding out mass centers 18:46:57 Then we shall beat them to it! 18:47:08 AnMaster: that's just basic gravity, general relativity is about gravity changing spacetime 18:47:21 or _being_ spacetime 18:47:28 oerjan, yes we get to that, but before we can get to it we need a notion of mass, no? 18:47:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:48:18 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 18:48:35 you'd want a notion of mass for really doing special relativity as well 18:48:42 oerjan: I'm defining my stuff :P 18:48:44 you'll see it soon 18:48:48 oerjan, well that is what I gave above? 18:48:58 the standard model doesn't have mass 18:49:12 ? 18:49:19 The standard model != relativity. 18:49:34 isn't standard model quantum mechanics? 18:49:42 which we aren't doing 18:50:27 oerjan, so once you have this notion of mass I gave above, then you have to compute how much it deforms space time in any given point. 18:50:36 the standard model is special relativistic, though 18:51:01 CAs can't have curved spacetime. 18:51:11 oerjan: Here you go: http://pastie.org/961798.txt?key=srjlqknik7dtjpwunkeg We used to say a cell A and AH directly, but this abstracted particle-function notion has simplified things a lot. 18:51:18 Also, has let me used finite derivative. 18:51:21 Phantom_Hoover, I can't see why not, as long as it is curved in a discrete way 18:51:25 It's not much, I'm basically just defining discrete trivial physics. 18:51:34 But there you go; derivatives map to finite derivatives as they should and all. 18:51:37 Make of it what you will. 18:51:39 AnMaster: How does it affect things? 18:52:08 Phantom_Hoover, well, by bending their path. Needs to be in discrete steps of course 18:52:17 oerjan: The rule for acceleration seems... strange. 18:52:26 Can we just focus on special for now? 18:52:46 GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: http://pastie.org/961798.txt?key=srjlqknik7dtjpwunkeg is the latest thing 18:52:59 Apparently the acceleration of a particle A is A(t+2) - 2 A(t+1) - A(t) 18:53:07 Where A(n) = A{H^n} 18:53:25 Starting at t=0, acceleration is AHH - 2 AH - A 18:53:26 Go figure. 18:53:38 GAH 18:53:43 alise, lets see.. what is {}? 18:53:46 pikhq_, ? 18:53:50 AnMaster: {} is just lexical stuff. 18:53:53 A{H^0} = A 18:53:56 A{H^1} = AH 18:53:56 etc 18:53:59 alise, hm 18:53:59 We don't use it any more 18:54:02 it was just what I used before 18:54:05 ah 18:54:06 it's now particle functions 18:54:20 alise, sure we can translate this back into a CA though? 18:54:44 Phantom_Hoover, okay 18:55:11 Let A(n) = (0,n+1). Starting at t=0, aA = (0,3) - 2 (0,2) - (0,1) = (0,3) - (0,4) - (0,1) = (0,1). 18:55:30 that does not seem quite right 18:55:35 A isn't accelerating at all 18:56:29 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:56:47 so 18:56:49 something's wrong 18:56:52 yes 18:56:53 aA should be (0,0) 18:57:00 because A has a constant velocity of (0,1). 18:57:01 let me check that 18:57:27 + (0,1) 18:57:33 it should be 18:57:50 oerjan: hm what? 18:57:56 aA = Delta vA(t) 18:57:56 = vA(t+1) - vA(t) 18:57:56 = A(t+2) - A(t+1) - A(t+1) - A(t) 18:57:56 = A(t+2) - 2 A(t+1) - A(t) 18:58:01 the acceleration should be A(t+2) - 2 A(t+1) + A(t) 18:58:12 assuming i remember my finite differences right 18:58:16 Let A(n) = (0,n+1). vA(t) = (0,t+2) - (0,t+1) = (0,1). 18:58:19 oerjan: so I got a step wrong then 18:58:23 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:58:29 Delta f(x) = f(x+1) - f(x) 18:58:34 vA(t+1) - vA(t) 18:58:40 expands to A(t+2) - A(t+1) - A(t+1) - A(t) 18:58:43 so I don't see how this is + A(t). 18:58:59 no, you are forgetting the -*- = + rule 18:59:38 whoops 18:59:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:00:42 "I detected that you were trying to use your Internet service. Would you like me to help you? *unplug*" 19:00:52 pikhq, what? 19:01:10 where is clippy? 19:01:24 In my Internet, dropping my packets. 19:01:28 WHEREISITAAAAH! 19:01:53 oerjan: I have the ridiculous new derivation using your definition that A's acceleration is (0,-7) 19:01:57 Of course, I probably made another stupid error. 19:02:21 given that i already calculated it to be (0,0), i should think so 19:02:55 now i have it to be -1 :-) 19:03:00 the mathematics taught in high school and college is fragmented, out of 19:03:00 date and inefficient! 19:03:02 alise, scalar? 19:03:05 *facepalm* 19:03:05 soilent green is people! 19:03:27 aA = (0,3) - 2 (0,2) + (0,1) = 0 19:03:29 oops 19:03:30 I was using t 19:03:32 Soylent Green is purple! 19:03:32 not t+1 19:04:10 oerjan: http://pastie.org/961806.txt?key=rordooczee0nr3qggjgxnq 19:04:15 what should we call the difference of speed? 19:04:27 and then, after that, we can consider the Awful Question: how do we start getting some relativity into this base? 19:04:41 whoops i made another error 19:04:43 aA(t) = (0,t+3) - 2 (0,t+2) + (0,t+1) 19:04:43 = (0, (t+3) - (t+2) + (t+1)) 19:04:48 should be 2(t+2) there of course 19:06:21 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 19:06:36 you might want to write = A(t+2) - A(t+1) - A(t+1) -^H+ A(t) as = (A(t+2) - A(t+1)) - (A(t+1) - A(t)) for clarity 19:07:14 write it as the incorrect form for clarity? 19:07:26 er no wait 19:07:27 no the latter is correct 19:07:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:07:29 lol 19:07:31 It seems my Internet has decided to have greater instability. Wonderful. 19:07:33 I am so immensely confused now 19:07:37 you still have it wrong on that page though 19:07:41 oerjan: so what /should/ we call the difference of speed across generations 19:07:46 (the intermediate calculation) 19:08:08 all i know is that the derivative of acceleration is sometimes called jerk 19:08:12 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:08:23 lol 19:08:41 oerjan: it annoys me that velocity and speed are denoted by bold/italic function names 19:08:45 how the hell should we write that out? 19:08:51 **? 19:08:59 alise, are they? 19:09:56 vectors are sometimes bold, and measured quantities are usually italic 19:10:13 in fact 19:10:14 sA(t) = A(t+1) D A(t) 19:10:15 what is this? 19:10:25 alise, I always wrote vectors underlined 19:10:34 is it displacement? 19:10:43 what is D 19:10:48 that is how I learnt to write vectors 19:10:52 That's because in ye times of yore you indicated bold for printers that way. 19:10:54 oerjan, a newly defined operator I think 19:10:58 oerjan: taxicab distance 19:11:05 so, treat it as just distance for analogy to regular terms 19:11:13 ah 19:11:50 well looks like as good a candidate for speed as any 19:12:15 I'm trying to analogise with standard kinematics, though 19:12:30 velocity is vector and speed is scalar... 19:12:42 I am pretty sure it is displacement 19:12:57 alise, what's the latest version of the page? 19:13:03 being written 19:13:05 it's both, naturally 19:13:22 Have you fixed s(A rel B)? 19:13:38 since you use 1 as your time difference most of the time 19:13:42 Or v(A rel B)? 19:14:02 oerjan: hmm 19:14:04 which would you call it? 19:14:06 speed or displacement? 19:14:16 I guess, in a way, it is speed since we can't "finite integrate" v to get s 19:15:02 http://pastie.org/961819.txt?key=esgkaovh9wc6mi1yy0sjtg 19:15:05 here is the current state of play 19:15:06 A(t+2) D A(t) would be a displacement with a different time interval 19:15:14 discrete, finite trivial physics 19:15:24 now we need to make it relativistic in some way 19:15:28 *cough* *pokes oerjan* 19:15:55 well for a start the relative velocity is completely wrong 19:16:28 also when doing special relativity you really want spacetime vectors 19:16:43 v(A rel B)(t) = vA(t) - vB(t) 19:16:43 = (A(t+1) - A(t)) - (B(t+1) - B(t)) 19:16:49 I realised it was wrong in a different way too 19:16:53 (need to swap the + in) 19:17:13 oerjan: mm 19:17:18 that seems hard to adapt this to, though 19:17:26 Phantom_Hoover: latest: http://pastie.org/961821.txt?key=evbqznopsmamodomdr6yaa 19:19:08 oerjan: one thing I note is that we can't allow particles to be arbitrary functions 19:19:15 or we can have particles sight-seeing by blipping to random locations 19:19:24 which is why A(t+1) must be the CA-defined heir of A(t) 19:19:46 What's the neighbourhood here? 19:20:20 -!- ws has joined. 19:20:25 Phantom_Hoover: Irrelevant. 19:20:38 The CA must define neighbourhoods, and successors based on these neighbourhoods. 19:20:43 Note that only alive particles have heirs and the like. 19:20:46 Dead particles are just vacuum. 19:21:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 19:22:53 hm 19:25:10 oerjan: So... 19:25:11 What now? 19:26:09 What are spacetime vectors? A 3D vector with time being one of the components. 19:26:16 s/./?/ 19:26:26 something like that 19:26:27 yeah 19:27:41 I wonder what physics we can define for CAs using these definitions already. 19:27:56 now the spacetime distance between (x1,y1,t1) and (x2,y2,t2) is ((x1,y1)D(y1,y2))^2 - (t1-t2)^2 19:28:12 might put in a c there if it's not 1 19:28:26 also i'm not sure if taxicab distance in space is a good thing 19:28:39 we certainly cannot use for the whole of spacetime, i think 19:28:43 *use it 19:31:17 oerjan, oh? 19:31:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 19:32:15 um well if there is a taxicab relativity i don't know about it :D 19:33:22 hah 19:33:23 bbl food 19:33:27 hm well i guess the problem is that taxicab metrics have very few invariant transformations 19:33:58 yeah 19:34:03 i wasn't the one who thought of using taxicab 19:34:06 you basically _have_ to map an axis to an axis 19:34:19 (direction) 19:35:04 yeah 19:35:22 oerjan: so we should use Euclidean distance? 19:35:28 but it requires reals... 19:35:32 we don't /have/ reals 19:35:49 oh i forgot a square root up there 19:36:00 differentiation following space-time 19:36:09 however if we _don't_ take the square root, we don't need reals 19:36:24 oerjan: dose that ... work? 19:36:48 *does 19:36:50 so for two-d 19:36:53 hm 19:37:14 wait 19:37:15 euclidean is 19:37:22 (a,b) D (c,d) = sqrt((a - c)^2 + (b - d)^2) 19:37:24 so you are proposing 19:37:26 (a,b) D (c,d) = (a - c)^2 + (b - d)^2 19:37:30 does this even make any sense??? 19:37:49 well not that much 19:38:04 oerjan: i mean, let's put it this way, we at least need an abs around the whole thing 19:38:08 (a,b) D (c,d) = |(a - c)^2 + (b - d)^2| 19:38:19 i wasn't the one who thought of using taxicab <-- I suggested taxicab as an alternative iirc. Plus it allowed us to have integer distances 19:38:21 erm it's always positive 19:38:25 oh true 19:38:30 granted. now explain how on earth it makes sense 19:38:35 alise, I also mentioned that we could do straight line 19:38:56 ok it doesn't make sense, satisfied? ;D 19:39:01 alise, but that was shot down iirc by you or Phantom_Hoover for not doing integer 19:39:03 oerjan: no but could we use it as a metric? 19:39:28 we want the metric to preserve scalar multiplication, i should think 19:39:41 er i mean 19:39:52 multiplication with a scalar 19:40:17 there clearly needs to be an Online Repository of Distance Metrics. 19:40:23 anyway even if our coordinates are integers, our distances don't have to be 19:40:44 sure they do 19:40:48 or at least rationals 19:41:05 because one, it'd be nice to compute this, and two, it does not make sense to travel a real distance in discrete space!! 19:41:27 sheesh 19:41:30 what :P 19:42:39 well i don't know how this should work anyway, except that there should be _some_ lorentz transformations ;) 19:42:57 anyway (a - c)^2 + (b - d)^2 isn't even a distance metric 19:43:02 it doesn't obey the triangle equality 19:43:09 WHATEVER 19:43:17 :D 19:43:46 I thuoght a,b,c,d were integers 19:43:52 they are 19:44:01 we're talking about (a,b)D(c,d) here 19:44:01 so what's a counter-example to the triangle law? 19:44:31 ok um actually i just used the wrong mathematica command to try and decide it :D 19:46:11 hm 19:46:30 In[26]:= ForAll[{x0, x1, y0, y1, z0, z1}, 19:46:31 dist[{x0, x1}, {z0, z1}] <= 19:46:31 dist[{x0, x1}, {y0, y1}] + dist[{y0, y1}, {z0, z1}]] 19:46:31 Out[26]= \!\( 19:46:31 \*SubscriptBox[\(\[ForAll]\), \({x0, x1, y0, y1, z0, z1}\)]\( 19:46:32 \*SuperscriptBox[\((x0 - z0)\), \(2\)] + 19:46:34 \*SuperscriptBox[\((x1 - z1)\), \(2\)] <= 19:46:36 \*SuperscriptBox[\((x0 - y0)\), \(2\)] + 19:46:38 \*SuperscriptBox[\((x1 - y1)\), \(2\)] + 19:46:40 \*SuperscriptBox[\((y0 - z0)\), \(2\)] + 19:46:42 \*SuperscriptBox[\((y1 - z1)\), \(2\)]\)\) 19:46:44 In[27]:= Resolve[%, Integers] 19:46:46 Out[27]= False 19:46:48 proved beyotch 19:46:53 (0,0)D(1,0) = 1, (1,0)D(2,0) = 1, (0,0)D(2,0) = 4 Q.E.D. 19:47:09 1+1 > 4 ? 19:47:12 what mathematica is saying soupdragon is that /no/ pairs obey that law :-D 19:47:18 i think 19:47:44 um that's incorrect, (0,0), (1,0) and (1,1) do obey it 19:47:49 (i tried that first) 19:47:52 # The British Rail metric (also called the Post Office metric or the SNCF metric) on a normed vector space is given by d(x, y) = ||x|| + ||y|| for distinct points x and y, and d(x, x) = 0. More generally ||.|| can be replaced with a function f taking an arbitrary set S to non-negative reals and taking the value 0 at most once: then the metric is defined on S by d(x, y)=f(x)+f(y) for distinct points x and y, and d(x, x) = 0. The name alludes to the tendency 19:47:52 of railway journeys (or letters) to proceed via London (or Paris) irrespective of their final destination. 19:47:54 Let's use that, then! :P 19:48:00 oerjan: well mathematica is dumb 19:48:56 also unreadable *ducks* 19:49:16 well the output text was obviously rendered more nicely on screen... 19:49:51 rail metric = taxicab, surely 19:50:23 no 19:50:39 oops 19:50:43 taxicab(p,q) = ||p-q||_1 19:50:53 rail(p,q) = ||p||+||q|| if p<>q; 0 otherwise 19:50:55 misread 19:50:59 rail metric could be 'river metric' I guess 19:51:08 of course the rail metric is ever so slightly ridiculous 19:51:24 no, wrong again, it's not the river one 19:51:57 oerjan: Clearly what we need to define is finite square root. 19:52:04 *facepalm* 19:52:10 No? :P 19:52:34 well we did use floor(sqrt(x)) in a previous discussion recently 19:52:47 Pah, that's like saying the ... floor... of the derivative is the finite derivative. 19:53:50 oerjan: How's this for a distance metric, (a,b)D(c,d) = |(a-c)*(b-d)| 19:54:03 Note: May not actually obey any relevant laws 19:54:55 you'd think 19:55:06 what is it that you're looking for, btw.? 19:55:22 a metric on Z^2 with values in Z+? 19:55:38 we already have that 19:55:48 it just doesn't really work for the purpose :D 19:56:05 hm 19:56:05 another one btw is max(|a-c|,|b-d|) 19:56:16 I went away for a bit and we had screens and screens of stuff :P 19:56:21 now did you get anywhere? 19:56:26 (corresponding to L^infinity like taxicab corresponds to L^1) 19:56:32 ws: yes 19:56:37 ws: that we can do relativity with nicely 19:56:55 oerjan: so /does/ |(a-c)*(b-d)| violate any laws? :D 19:57:25 THE UNIVERSE _IS_ A GIANT SQUARE CA DAMMIT AND WE'LL PROVE IT BY SQUEEZING RELATIVITY INTO IT 19:57:39 PRECISELY! 19:57:40 alise: almost certainly 19:57:44 and quantum mechanics ... (... eep) 19:57:54 [oerjan runs away screaming] 19:58:11 alise: it zeroes too much ;-) 19:58:14 (ANY PROBLEMS WITH DIMENSION WILL BE SOLVED VIA THE HOLOGRAPHIC PRINCIPLE) 19:58:25 ws: you zero too much! 19:58:27 ok what about 19:58:29 |a-c| * |b-d| 19:58:38 alise: a metric should zero iff these pairs are equal 19:58:39 aka exactly the same 19:59:00 State of play, STAT! 19:59:14 yes, miraculously absolute value distributes over multiplication 19:59:23 oerjan: SHUT UP :D 19:59:31 i'm in silly mode not think mode 19:59:35 I SAID STAT! 19:59:36 Phantom_Hoover: WE HAVE NO CLUE 19:59:37 hey it's a neat fact 20:00:00 and that's a fact too 20:00:04 ok what about floor(|a-c|/|b-d| + |b-d|/|a-c|) 20:00:12 where x/0 is defined to be, uh, 0 20:00:19 and quantum mechanics ... (... eep) <-- can we do that after we got general relativity done? 20:00:24 AnMaster: PROBABLY NOT 20:00:30 which we will do after we have special relativity done 20:00:32 Definitely not. 20:00:39 alise, ah, so we won't ever get there? 20:00:43 QM requires nondeterminism 20:00:48 good point 20:00:53 considering that "discrete quantum mechanics" is the most hilarious lunacy ever dreamt of 20:01:01 Phantom_Hoover: well. many worlds! 20:01:02 alise, :D 20:01:19 SPACE IS FOUR-DIMENSIONAL, FOUR-SIDED CELLULAR AUTOMATON; ONE SIDE IS TIME 20:01:29 AND THE OTHERS EXPERIENCE TIME-EFFECTS FROM IT 20:01:29 TIME CUBE 20:01:34 alise: It's nondeterministic as to which world we go into. 20:01:35 TIME CUBE IS DISCRETE QUANTUM MECHANICS WTF 20:01:40 Phantom_Hoover: just list them all :D 20:01:49 space is NOT four dimensional 20:01:56 Spacetime is. 20:02:16 soupdragon: but time cube is! 20:02:20 and time cube IS platonic space! 20:02:22 It might be a *very* small fourth dimension. 20:02:26 if it claims that then it's bullshit 20:02:30 In a 5-torus. 20:02:34 hey discrete quantum mechanics is not that lunatic, spin operators are discrete after all iirc 20:02:47 And time cube is naturally bullshit. 20:02:51 h 20:03:15 oerjan: Heisenberg? 20:03:18 alise, you want discrete string theory 20:03:19 a /very/ small fourth dimension :D 20:03:23 which I think is a contradiction 20:03:30 not sure 20:03:35 Discrete... string... theory? 20:03:37 it is way above my head, string theory I mean 20:03:38 Phantom_Hoover: may be his discovery, i don't recall 20:03:40 So are the strings just badly interpolated lines? 20:03:42 alise, :D 20:03:44 string theory is false 20:03:50 There are THREE dimensions _only_ 20:03:57 soupdragon, eh... what? 20:04:00 I smell nerd religious wat! 20:04:04 s/wat/war/ 20:04:08 if your string theory claims 11 or 26 dimensions then sorry but it's _Wrong_ 20:04:12 soupdragon: I see; your proof? 20:04:19 soupdragon, where is your proof of this 20:04:23 Or is this along the lines of your amazing proof "Plants grow; therefore god exists". 20:04:29 Oh, god. 20:04:30 (if anyone wasn't there: I'm not exaggerating, he said exactly this) 20:04:40 O.o 20:04:55 can you build a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect? No you can't QED 20:05:04 discrete string theory would be like little rosaries, right... 20:05:09 You can *if it's 4D*. 20:05:23 soupdragon: OH MY WORD! All the string physicists missed that completely! 20:05:26 I'll tell them right now 20:05:31 Just did so, they've decided to abandon it 20:05:35 How did they miss that? 20:05:56 ^ since he can't form a valid counterrargument... 20:06:27 OK, so what does the self-intersection of Klein bottles have to do with the number of space dimensions? 20:06:34 count-err-arguments, the most common type on the internet 20:07:28 soupdragon really believes he has disproved string theory in the strongest sense by stating "you can't build a klein bottle that doesn't intersect" 20:07:34 ladies and gentlemen, we are witnessing true insanity 20:07:46 ladies and gentlemen, we are witnessing ad hominem 20:07:53 well either that or true (but lousy) trolling 20:08:02 since you know I'm right, but you can't admit defeat you're just doing this 20:08:18 No, we have *no idea* how your argument works. 20:08:20 you are funny soupdragon, i think you would make a fun pet 20:08:23 like i could go around saying things 20:08:28 and you'd always make me laugh by saying something incomprehensible 20:08:38 study the topology of klien bottle i fyou don't understand my proof 20:08:39 that is what pets are for 20:09:09 can you build a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect? No you can't QED <-- not with current technology 20:09:17 which isn't same as "in theory" 20:09:22 AnMaster, not with any technology ever -- it's a fundametal fact of the universe 20:09:27 soupdragon, proof of this 20:09:52 it's a basic topology agument 20:09:55 soupdragon: State, concisely, why the self-intersection of a Klein bottle precludes there being more than 3 space dimensions? 20:09:57 I assumed everyone knew this.. 20:09:57 AnMaster: well what you are saying does not make much sense. 20:09:58 soupdragon, tell me 20:10:03 AnMaster: but that is not why he is wrong 20:10:06 http://xkcd.com/171/ 20:10:31 The smallest number of dimensions you can immerse a klien bottle in is 4 20:10:34 really simple 20:10:37 OK. 20:10:38 correct 20:10:45 THE CALABI-YAU MANIFOLD IS EDUCATED EVIL 20:10:49 How does that preclude 4D space? 20:10:51 soupdragon, ever heard of flatland? 20:11:16 Oh, wait, I see. 20:11:18 I've read that.. its a nice book 20:11:29 soupdragon: incorrect, the klein bottle can be immersed in 3 dimensions 20:11:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_(mathematics) 20:11:46 We can't construct non-intersecting Klein bottles, so we can't have 4D spacce. 20:11:59 oh yes oerjan, that's right I used the wrong word 20:12:03 ty 20:12:06 MWAHAHAHA 20:12:24 soupdragon: Is that your argument? 20:13:41 http://i.imgur.com/Vx0xg.png 20:13:55 Yes, I know. 20:14:04 it should be easy to see that the self intersection can be remedied by pulling that handle out through 4D 20:14:15 topologically you can prove this is not possible in jsut 3D 20:14:43 if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect 20:15:23 ^ I learned that trick from atheists 20:16:02 OK, but we can't mani 20:16:09 Forget that. 20:16:31 the rest of the sentence disappeared into the 23rd dimension 20:16:46 `addquote if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect ^ I learned that trick from atheists 20:16:48 159| if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect ^ I learned that trick from atheists 20:16:53 Insanity too amazing not to preserve. 20:17:10 Look, soupdragon, if you can't see why you're wrong, I can't be bothered. 20:17:23 Phantom_Hoover, I give up.. what's the fourth dimension? 20:17:30 Firstly, the repeated misspelling of Klein; secondly, the patently incorrect application of burden of proof; and thirdly, jesus christ on a freaking pogo stick man. 20:17:43 It's incredibly small and toroidal. 20:17:52 So we haven't the ability to move stuff in it. 20:18:09 umm invisible dragon in the garage much? 20:18:22 soupdragon: you do realise that burden of proof NEVER implies anything is false? 20:18:25 * oerjan chuckles 20:18:29 just that we don't have to consider it? you stated it was /false/ outright 20:18:31 and besides, no 20:18:39 That doesn't mean we can't detect it. 20:18:39 we can make predictions about these spaces with a coherent theory of them 20:18:44 it's just that we can't decide on one :-) 20:20:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:20:57 `help 20:20:58 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 20:21:18 `help quote 20:21:20 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 20:21:27 `quote 20:21:28 97| i am sad ( of course by analogy) :) smileys) 20:21:41 `quote help 20:21:43 66| It looks like my hairs are too fat. Can you help me split them? 20:21:52 ...what. 20:21:57 o hai oerjan 20:22:11 'evening augur 20:23:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 20:23:27 `quote 20:23:29 77| no Deewiant No?! I've been living a lie yep. Excuse me while I jump out of the window -> 20:23:50 fortunately it was a first floor window. 20:23:51 `run ls 20:23:52 bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.19787 \ wunderbar_emporium 20:24:03 oerjan: It'd still hurt. 20:24:14 Actually I didn't jump 20:24:26 Deewiant: YOU STINKING LIAR 20:24:45 also, i may have meant basement. 20:24:53 or is that ground floor 20:24:54 If the quote'd been any longer it'd've clarified that 20:25:00 ah. 20:25:22 `define basement 20:25:24 * the lowermost portion of a structure partly or wholly below ground level; often used for storage \ * the ground floor facade or interior in Renaissance architecture \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn 20:25:40 i guess jumping out a basement window would not be that impressive. 20:25:50 Of course it would! 20:25:53 or maybe it would, just in the wrong kind of way. 20:25:57 you'd /rise/ 20:26:14 Or fall through the Earth, then /oscillate/. 20:26:22 :D 20:27:03 nah you'd be swallowed by the black hole in the center. 20:27:14 What black hole? 20:27:31 PERHAPS IT WOULD BE RELATIVISTIC. 20:27:34 the one at the center of the earth 20:27:40 okay I went away for another bit 20:27:50 so what did you end up with for the CA? 20:27:58 do you have relativity yet? 20:28:03 (special that is) 20:28:06 AnMaster: nope 20:28:11 WE HAVE RELATIVITY 20:28:15 oerjan, :D 20:28:15 not in a CA though 20:28:19 alise: Which log has soupdragon saying that plants growing proves God? 20:28:20 right 20:28:24 alise, still trying? 20:28:24 Phantom_Hoover: not sure 20:28:30 use "grep --crazy" 20:28:49 I can't get the lot in greppable form. 20:28:59 `addquote use "grep --crazy" 20:29:03 160| use "grep --crazy" 20:29:12 Phantom_Hoover, wget -r -np 20:29:26 I wonder how large it is 20:29:49 that's what she said 20:30:11 about 50 megs because of minimum file size iirc 20:31:00 alise, well you don't download a block of zeros 20:31:05 and that is the important bit here 20:31:11 you only download actual file size 20:31:17 Let Delta^h f(x) = (f(x+h) - f(x))/h. 20:31:17 sure on disk it will be larger 20:31:30 Bah, robots.txt looks like it's blocking me. 20:31:37 Let Delta^Sigma f(x) = lim k->inf (sum h=0 to k, Delta^h f(x))/k 20:31:50 Phantom_Hoover, create a fake robots.txt and tell wget to not refetch files 20:31:52 then Delta^Sigma -- I'll abbreviate DS -- 20:31:52 that works 20:31:58 DS (x) = 1 20:32:02 DS (2x) = 2 20:32:04 -!- ws has quit (Quit: [BX] Been around the world and found that only stupid people are breeding.). 20:32:07 DS (x^2) = infinity 20:32:11 and finally 20:32:18 Phantom_Hoover, or 20:32:32 Phantom_Hoover, just download Gregor's hg repo with the logs in 20:32:36 forgot url 20:32:45 he will love you wasting his bw like that 20:32:48 DS (2^x) = 20:33:09 Phantom_Hoover, anyway I could grep my logs, which go back about a year (older archives on cd) 20:33:13 lim k->inf (2^x log(2) - i 2^x (-i H_k - i 2^(k+1) Phi(2,1,k+1) + pi))/k 20:33:25 it will take a while because it is lzma compressed (or bzip2 for older ones) 20:33:25 So, yeah, I think it's safe to coin DS "Fucked-Up Derivative". 20:33:32 switched to xz recently 20:33:38 Or, Limit Sum Derivative; LSD. 20:33:45 alise, XD 20:33:54 Phantom_Hoover, what phrase should I grep on? 20:33:57 AnMaster: Try grep atheist 20:34:02 I doubt... 20:34:04 but okay 20:34:07 Phantom_Hoover, which year? 20:34:08 AnMaster: grep plant | grep grow 20:34:10 this year 20:34:23 grep plant 10.* | grep grow 20:34:31 A "mere" 21% packet loss, but I can't get any freaking Internet connectivity. 20:34:44 Anyone got an IP over ICMP tunneling scheme? 20:34:57 alise, no relevant hits from 2010 20:35:04 The LSD of (-1^x) = 0 20:35:11 (-1)^x, that is. 20:35:17 that is, just uorygl oklopol and fax 20:35:18 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 20:35:23 AnMaster: fax = soupdragon 20:35:27 What is the lsd 20:35:36 2010-05-01/01_freenode-#esoteric.log.gz:apr 25 14:36:31 watch a plant grow: You have witnessed it 20:35:36 2010-05-01/01_freenode-#esoteric.log.gz:apr 25 14:50:08 oklopol: I can prove god exists: You can see a plant grow 20:35:37 Let Delta^h f(x) = (f(x+h) - f(x))/h. 20:35:37 And no, not making that up. Anyone got an IP over ICMP tunneling scheme handy? 20:35:37 Let Delta^Sigma f(x) = lim k->inf (sum h=0 to k, Delta^h f(x))/k 20:35:44 Delta^Sigma is the LSD, Limit Sigma Derivative. 20:35:46 Objectivism states that "Existence exists" and "Existence is Identity." To be is to be "an entity of a specific nature made of specific attributes." That which has no attributes does not and cannot exist. Hence, the axiom of identity: a thing is what it is. 20:35:54 LSD (x) = 1 20:35:56 LSD (2x) = 2 20:35:58 (strange it was .gz...) 20:36:00 LSD (x^2) = undefined 20:36:05 LSD (2^x) = lim k->inf (2^x log(2) - i 2^x (-i H_k - i 2^(k+1) Phi(2,1,k+1) + pi))/k 20:36:12 LSD ((-1)^x) = 0 20:36:28 Phantom_Hoover, note: dates there are either UTC or CET/CEST 20:36:32 I suspect LSD (2^x) is undefined 20:36:35 Phantom_Hoover, so it may be one day off compared to clog 20:36:37 but like hell am i gonna work it out 20:36:46 can't be arsed to calculate which direction 20:36:54 lament: that fit quite well into the surrounding insanity 20:37:48 LSD (1/x) = 0 20:37:51 what kind of LSD is this! 20:37:59 the kind that reduces INT 20:38:11 LSD (x/n) = 1/n 20:38:19 at least 20:38:24 oerjan: wat 20:38:24 AnMaster: What date is it? 20:38:41 Phantom_Hoover, it says in that line 20:38:54 Phantom_Hoover, the logs are rotated monthly 20:39:04 1st April? 20:39:04 the dir name is rotation date 20:39:15 Phantom_Hoover, " 2010-05-01/01_freenode-#esoteric.log.gz:apr 25 14:36:31 watch a plant grow: You have witnessed it" <-- "apr 25" 20:39:18 see that near the middle 20:39:31 Phantom_Hoover, I think it is Swedish date format for some unknown reason 20:40:34 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:40:37 the kind that reduces INT 20:40:39 what did you mean here :P 20:41:08 alise, well if you reduce INT you would end up with NAT I guess 20:41:11 ;P 20:41:15 it was a pun attempt on integration and intelligence 20:41:24 ah 20:41:28 okay my pun was worse 20:41:35 slightly roleplaying inspired 20:41:46 oerjan, I was just about to ask about that yeah 20:42:04 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:42:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:42:55 it's funny how... silly LSD is. 20:43:05 I mean, the results seem almost random. 20:43:42 Psychedelic drugs are like that 20:43:50 But it's just A = (f(x+1)-f(x) / 1) + (f(x+2)-f(x) / 2) + (f(x+3)-f(x) / 3) + ... 20:44:03 then basically the limit as k->inf of k terms of A / k 20:44:12 I guess it's because it's the difference "in the large" 20:45:56 AnMaster: Sorry, my home computer (and so my logging) is down :P 20:48:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:48:31 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:48:41 Anyway, hg clone https://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ if you'd like. 20:48:45 It'll be a while though :P 20:48:55 Once I do that myself, I'll update them to today. 20:50:01 Gregor, hm 20:51:24 I was writing a script to keep a log archive up-to-date, rename files to YYYY-MM-DD, and make the times UTC (including wrapping to other files) 20:51:30 But I got bored at the wrapping-to-files bit. 20:52:10 There, it's up to date. 20:52:33 Erm, it will be once I hg push :P 20:52:39 Now what silly username/password did I use here >_> 20:52:49 My personal logs are in a PostgreSQL database, but they're not quite as comprehensive. 20:52:54 FIX THE TIMES 20:53:04 Gregor: "snugglebunnies" 20:53:09 There we go :P 20:53:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:54:01 10.02.13:21:12:29 `google snugglebunnies 20:55:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 20:55:20 * oerjan thought for a moment Gregor had somehow utterly failed to give HackEgo a command 20:55:42 No, just snugglebunny-grepping :P 20:55:56 I'll grep YOUR snugglebunny 20:56:15 that's what she said 20:56:42 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:56:50 um wait 20:57:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:57:26 that doesn't really make sense with an _actual_ innuendo, does it. 20:59:04 -!- tombom has joined. 20:59:55 oerjan, why not 21:00:33 I mean it doesn't make sense but why is that an issue 21:00:40 because the whole point is to point out an unintended innuendo 21:00:46 alise, gave up on the relativistic CA yet? 21:01:03 NEVER 21:01:04 NEVER! 21:01:06 oerjan, hm good point 21:01:13 alise, so how is it going? 21:01:23 Its velocity is 0! 21:01:30 heh 21:01:36 also 1/2 ! 21:01:41 and 1/3 ! 21:01:46 and -2/5 ! 21:01:50 heh 21:01:58 alise, link to last version though? 21:02:30 http://pastie.org/961891.txt?key=iqkvno8jakp5xeyub3mkq 21:02:38 oerjan: and sqrt(0) (not 0!) 21:02:52 why of course, 0! is 1 21:02:57 I WAS ABOUT TO-- 21:03:16 why do you think i carefully added spaces 21:03:35 :) 21:04:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:05:11 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:06:06 http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-02-04-beartato-popcorn.gif 21:07:47 the attack of the killer zombie maize 21:08:10 (Suggested dessert: http://nedroid.com/imagesb/beartato-ridiculousbeliefsb.gif) 21:12:01 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 21:12:13 yeah everyone knows the earth revolves around me! 21:12:21 No, me! 21:12:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:12:48 CAS. LET US RELATIVISE THEM. 21:12:49 infidel! 21:13:16 clearly we just need to bend the grid in funny ways. 21:13:17 (that was about the "No, me!" not the cas.) 21:13:52 alise: How does the concept of curvature apply to discrete spacetime? 21:14:10 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:14:12 it doesn't, we bend the image on screen 21:14:32 you mean we bend the screen 21:15:08 :D 21:18:23 Hmm... 21:18:34 Does Golly support toroidal universes? 21:18:49 golly, i don't know 21:19:25 i doubt 21:19:28 golly lol 21:19:44 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:19:59 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:20:11 CAS. LET US RELATIVISE THEM. <-- what? Relativistic computer algebra systems? 21:20:20 Cool. 21:20:21 this doesn't even make sense 21:20:23 I want one. 21:20:24 that might also be cool. 21:20:26 soupdragon! 21:20:30 * augur pounces soupdragon 21:20:35 hey augur *hug* 21:20:37 Phantom_Hoover, oh did you mean CAs? 21:20:48 obviously. 21:21:05 i'd like to be an artist and paint pictures 21:21:07 hows it goooin soup? 21:21:48 jutst watching quantum physics on youtube 21:22:12 sup 21:22:57 augur: i am not entirely sure if soupdragon is a master troll or if alise is a master at being (or pretending to be) trolled 21:23:15 Both. 21:23:15 :D 21:23:17 oerjan: meh. i dont care. soup has some interesting in theoretical linguistics 21:23:18 so 21:23:27 hey i've been laughing at him not getting angry 21:23:31 * soupdragon loves augur 21:23:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:23:38 Aww, a budding romance. 21:23:43 D: 21:23:45 we're not compatable :P 21:23:45 dont love me! 21:23:47 D: 21:23:53 yeah, she's a she 21:23:55 I hope augur is a proponent of the three-dimensions-ONLY plants-imply-God theory. 21:23:56 square ped round hole 21:23:59 peg 21:24:11 soupdragon, ah you need a converter box? Like between dvi/vga or usb/serial 21:24:12 or such 21:24:13 square ped 21:24:13 Hell, I'm sure you could square the circle 21:24:14 XD 21:24:18 clearly _four_-dimension plants would be the work of the devil 21:24:18 * augur rubs alise's bum 21:24:20 With God 21:24:21 ;o 21:24:24 augur: ... 21:24:25 Okayyy 21:24:35 what? she said square ped 21:24:42 :| 21:24:59 * soupdragon drinking 21:25:12 `addquote * augur rubs alise's bum [...] what? she said square ped :| 21:25:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:25:17 161|* augur rubs alise's bum [...] what? she said square ped :| 21:25:34 hahaha 21:25:41 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 21:26:02 I really have no clue what this guy is talking about.. somethign to do with molecular configuartions 21:26:07 non sequitur ad astra 21:26:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:26:30 Does not follow to the star? 21:26:55 *stars 21:26:57 im reading a book called Anarchy Works 21:27:08 I doubt it does 21:27:12 or wait... 21:27:18 oerjan: Aster..? 21:27:27 How does that decline...? 21:28:02 AnMaster: Maybe it's like Microsoft Works. 21:28:11 hm wiktionary has only the plural meaning 21:28:14 (But I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss anarchy with a "doubt".) 21:28:22 its a pretty good book 21:28:25 alise, ouch 21:28:25 and it has no copyright 21:28:40 Fishes, are also not copyrighted. 21:28:42 This is related. 21:28:52 alise, well, the issue with it is bullies. Well.. one of the issues 21:29:02 basically anarchy is nice utopia sure 21:29:06 The issue with communism is people won't come to work! 21:29:14 Phantom_Hoover: hm wiktionary doesn't have aster except as a broken link from the english 21:29:14 You can make bad critiques of incredibly naive versions of ANY theory. 21:29:15 Try again. 21:29:16 alise, one of the issues maybe 21:29:30 alise, anarchy isn't stable 21:29:31 The issue with capitalism is that corporations will just go around KILLING everyone for PROFIT! 21:29:36 it has astra though, which is stars 21:29:40 AnMaster: you should read this book 21:29:42 I'll repeat again: You can make bad critiques of incredibly naive versions of ANY theory. 21:29:55 alise, you said this yourself some time ago though 21:30:08 Not really that. 21:30:09 Anyway. 21:30:13 the point of it is to go through example after example of why anarchy /can/ work and /can/ be stable 21:30:27 Phantom_Hoover: -a plural would normally be neuter... but aster doesn't look neuter. and wiktionary gives no gender. 21:30:40 Aster, aster... 21:31:46 the original greek is masculine and has no -a (or alpha) in sight 21:31:49 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AE%CF%81 21:32:29 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:32:30 hm except accusative 21:32:44 * oerjan doesn't know greek grammar 21:33:15 Phantom_Hoover: anyway i was just mangling two latin phrases together 21:33:24 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:35:18 Phantom_Hoover: oh hm it can _also_ be neuter in greek, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF%CE%BD 21:35:48 -!- Alex3012 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 21:36:08 Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/astrum 21:36:47 OK, so it's "Does not follow to the stars." 21:38:26 -!- Alex3012 has joined. 21:43:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:44:10 There isn't a Life IRC channel, is there? 21:45:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:45:21 -!- Alex3012 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:45:52 Incidentally, I think it would be better to redefine the speed of light in Life as c/1. 21:46:01 s/c/1/c/2/ 21:46:02 -!- Alex3012 has joined. 21:46:09 Why? 21:46:13 So that gliders move at lightspeed? 21:46:16 s|c/1|c/2|, you mean. 21:46:18 Moving at lightspeed shouldn't be possible. 21:46:28 Because nothing can go faster than c/2 21:46:36 In a vacuum. 21:46:50 It seems nicer. 21:46:59 Hmm. Seem to recall a "faster-than-lightspeed" hack. :P 21:48:01 Given that there are theoretical ways for us to go FTL if there is already infrastructure in place, it seems appropriate. 21:48:42 Nothing can go /faster/. 21:48:51 But nothing should go /as fast/, except light; and GoL has no light, or at least it is implicit. 21:48:59 So it should be c/3. 21:49:10 pikhq: It doesn't work; it's an illusion. 21:49:24 It's logically impossible. 21:49:25 augur: is that book ancap? 21:49:29 or regular anarchism 21:49:32 alise: Yeah, that's called scare quotes. 21:50:22 alise: it's probably more socialist anarchism but its got a fairly broad array of ideas. one of its examples is of this multinational corporation that runs on strong anti-authoritarian principles 21:50:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:50:45 Corporations are a kind of authority, really. 21:50:59 -!- alise has left (?). 21:51:08 -!- augur has joined. 21:51:18 -!- alise has joined. 21:51:20 Whoops. 21:51:23 alise: it's probably more socialist anarchism but its got a fairly broad array of ideas. one of its examples is of this multinational corporation that runs on strong anti-authoritarian principles 21:51:23 * augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection) 21:51:23 Corporations are a kind of authority, really. 21:51:34 oh they are, definitely 21:51:48 but that wasnt the point of the example :p 21:52:08 Phantom_Hoover: iirc the c/2 limit for life is only for _spaceships_. chaotic disturbances like long lines can travel at c proper. 21:52:13 there's also certainly quite a bit anti-capitalist rhetoric, but it's aimed towwards capitalism qua contemporary evils of capitalism 21:52:24 augur: Was the corporation in question presented as a co-operative? 21:52:27 not capitalism qua individualist free association sort of markets 21:52:35 That's the least authoritarian form of corporation I know; and it works in practice. 21:52:53 oerjan: Yup, seen that, and not even as a hack. 21:53:07 alise: no, its Gore and Associates, a fluoropolymer R&D/manufacturing company 21:53:25 (Evidence: http://hcoop.net/, http://tech.coop/, and, oh, one of the biggest supermarkets/"other stuffs" in Britain.) 21:53:31 augur: oh, I thought it was a hypothetical 21:53:37 no no 21:53:39 its actual 21:53:45 thats the intent of the example 21:53:56 Co-operatives are awesome, incidentally. 21:53:57 its a real corporation that does real corporation stuff but has no hierarchical management 21:54:09 the whole book is nothing but examples of anarchy working 21:54:16 for all the things people say it cant work for 21:54:51 brb gonna shower 21:55:01 YOU COULDN'T SHOWER WITHOUT AUTHORITY 21:55:28 * pikhq wants HTTP. D': 21:55:38 pikhq: use EgoBot as a proxy 21:55:39 this is feasible. 21:55:50 oerjan: I know. 21:55:56 * pikhq wants bandwidth not measured in bits per second 22:00:33 s/c/1/c/2/ <-- broken 22:00:43 as a sed expression I mean 22:00:57 ah alise mentioned that below 22:01:22 not I 22:01:51 -!- coppro has joined. 22:01:59 I know. 22:02:21 Hi pooppy! 22:02:25 Also known as coppro. 22:03:07 it's crappo 22:03:08 get it right 22:03:51 awehsddns;klfgbhhdssbjsdhfjkosadhnjvbkoxfncjh; 22:03:51 <3 22:04:05 o hai 22:04:09 Yeah, now that I think of it, that does look like the Greek word "kopros". 22:04:15 DAMMIT GIVE ME MORE THAN 5 PACKETTS PER SECOND 22:04:28 Number of packets doesn't really matter as long as they're big enough. 22:04:32 uorygl, which means? 22:04:40 (that greek word I mean) 22:04:49 uorygl: Except that packets can't be big enough. 22:04:49 AnMaster: just some shit 22:04:53 oerjan, XD 22:05:15 pikhq, and you said modem was slower? 22:05:16 Yes, it means poop or crap or shit or dung or feces or excrement or BM. 22:05:27 AnMaster: In the past, it was. 22:05:32 oerjan: nothing /exceeds/ c in GoL though right? :D 22:05:33 uorygl, BM? bat manure? 22:05:38 Bowel movement. 22:05:39 there's no pathological pattern :-P 22:05:40 ah 22:05:46 Currently, semaphore would be faster. 22:05:46 Manure, there's another word. 22:05:51 alise: erm of course not 22:05:55 oerjan: i was joking 22:06:19 pikhq, is it really 5 packets per second? 22:06:29 I think that is still slower than semaphore 22:06:34 Incidentally, the Caterpillar is a work of beauty. 22:06:35 err 22:06:35 faster 22:06:37 not slower 22:06:42 pikhq: packets can be arbitrarily large in IPv6! 22:06:45 Pretty much, anyway. 22:06:46 AnMaster: *Less* currently. 22:06:47 alise: hm could be fun to put that as an easter egg in a gol program 22:06:52 pikhq, since a packet can contain a lot more than one bit 22:06:53 uorygl: Pity I don't have IPv6! 22:07:00 say, a pacman pattern really speeding along 22:07:02 Yeah. 22:07:06 uorygl, it is still limited by physical MTU isn't it? 22:07:14 or whatever it was called 22:07:23 oerjan: :D 22:07:27 I should learn what MTU is. 22:07:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_transmission_unit 22:07:41 oerjan: hey can we use chaotic lines and stuff to do >c/2 communication in GoL? 22:07:46 uorygl, that 22:07:46 you don't /have/ to use gliders to communicate, surely 22:08:10 alise, the issue with doing communication with them is that they are, uh, chaotic 22:08:15 You don't have to use gliders to communicate, but with the appropriate GoL program, gliders are as fast as anything. 22:08:20 well they're not /that/ chaotic 22:08:24 uorygl: not in-universe 22:08:39 alise: There are /many/ >c/2 comms systems. 22:08:45 Well, do we really care about in-universe speed? 22:08:52 Phantom_Hoover: Are there any =c? 22:08:53 alise, there are space fillers too, they are faster iirc? 22:08:54 uorygl: Yes. 22:08:56 We're Theorists. 22:09:00 The lightspeed telegraph. 22:09:04 AnMaster: they fill space at c/4 or something 22:09:06 uorygl: It's the only meaningful notion of speed *in* Game of Life! 22:09:08 alise, oh maybe 22:09:10 but we don't need to fill space 22:09:13 we need to communicate 22:09:14 Phantom_Hoover: wut 22:09:20 And there's a blip which travels through an agar at c. 22:09:21 Phantom_Hoover: Oh yeah! 22:09:32 alise: Do you have Golly? 22:09:38 No, but I can get it in a pinch. 22:09:42 Also, agar??? 22:09:58 A stable, extensible arrangement of cells. 22:09:59 An agar is a pattern that tiles the entire plane. 22:10:17 uorygl, still life? 22:10:18 or moving? 22:10:24 Either 22:10:32 uorygl, I mean, a regular pattern of *** would fit it then 22:10:39 There are oscillating agars, but they're less common. 22:10:45 it is an oscillator 22:10:51 Well, yeah. 22:10:52 Phantom_Hoover, the one I mentioned? 22:11:06 There's not too much reason not to consider that an agar. 22:11:07 Probably, but it doesn't really count. 22:11:09 too tired to work out minimum distance 22:11:10 Phantom_Hoover: So you clearly know a bit about GoL, huh. 22:11:11 Phantom_Hoover, why not 22:11:31 alise: Yes, though not as much as I'd like. 22:11:43 Phantom_Hoover, so why doesn't it count ... it seems strange 22:11:44 Most complex signal circuitry confuses me. 22:11:46 Phantom_Hoover: What is the lightspeed telegraph? 22:12:11 gliders move at 'lightspeed' 22:12:20 soupdragon: no. 22:12:22 It's a system that sends a signal along a stretched, regular line of beehives at C. 22:12:25 they move at c/2 22:12:30 soupdragon: You fail at Life. 22:12:35 plenty of things move =c in life 22:12:40 and others merely >c/2 22:12:47 well not move, but have effects at 22:12:48 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:48 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:48 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:48 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:49 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:49 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:49 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU 22:12:50 alise, what about non-cardinal gliders? don't they move faster than cardinal ones? Or was that for space ships 22:12:52 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:52 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:52 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:52 ... 22:12:53 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:53 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:53 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:53 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU 22:12:54 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:54 FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUC 22:12:56 soupdragon is seriously fucking unstable 22:12:56 oerjan, ! 22:12:56 oerjan: 22:13:03 Oerjan oerjan oerjan! 22:13:06 oerjan, do you job as an op there please :) 22:13:08 Spamtastic! 22:13:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 22:13:08 seriously just ban her until she, I don't know, stops being crazy??? 22:13:08 that was at Phantom_Hoover 22:13:14 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*quantum@unaffiliated/fax. 22:13:18 alise, her? 22:13:20 like maybe a notch down from completely crazy would do 22:13:22 AnMaster: transgender 22:13:28 uh okay 22:13:32 uh okay what 22:13:35 whatever 22:13:53 she's not the first transgendered person we've had here... 22:14:01 OK, so transmission at c. 22:14:03 This boot, I have gotten 5.4 MiB of data. 22:14:03 although the other wasn't here for very long iirc 22:14:15 Phantom_Hoover: what is the lightspeed telegraphhh 22:14:35 It's a system that sends a signal along a stretched, regular line of beehives at C. 22:14:50 It's very big and complex, but it works. 22:15:10 AnMaster: so what does "whatever" mean 22:15:15 .. 22:15:22 It's orthogonal, though. 22:15:28 Phantom_Hoover: And I take it is impossible to have any c communication without a wire by definition. 22:15:35 Yes. 22:15:36 Phantom_Hoover, so why doesn't that pattern I suggested count as an agar? 22:15:40 Well, sort of. 22:15:42 AnMaster: I don't understand what you were trying to say. 22:15:46 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:16:03 Phantom_Hoover: I take it that Eric Weisstein's Treature Trove of the Game of Life is not the most up-to-date infosource? 22:16:08 It doesn't have the lightspeed telegraph. 22:16:21 -!- cahill has joined. 22:16:28 I can imagine a really long superstring would transmit through vacuum, but it'd destroy your transmitter and probably the receiver, too. 22:16:36 alise: I'm not sure. 22:16:42 AnMaster: because the definition of an agar excludes it. 22:16:55 There isn't really a central reference source, though LifeWiki is OK. 22:16:57 uorygl, oh? how is it defined then 22:17:26 Something like "a pattern that tiles the plane and is not just a bunch of wicks or oscillators that don't interact". 22:17:47 uorygl, it could be a static pattern, didn't Phantom_Hoover say that? 22:17:54 hm 22:18:02 My definition doesn't exclude static patterns. 22:18:07 oh true 22:18:21 uorygl, btw, wicks? 22:18:43 uorygl, is the pattern allowed to extend itself, like a space-filler? 22:18:44 * cahill Discounts!! Our Special Limited Time Offers Up To May,22!!!New BranD!! Notebooks,Plasma and LCD TV's.Buy your electronic needs at our unique prices. Laptop Sony VAIO® VGN-FW590FFD-575,57$!!!Apple MacBook® Air MC234LL/A-695,27$!!! http://www.elplace.com/ 22:18:45 -!- cahill has quit (K-Lined). 22:18:49 1D extendible patterns. 22:19:04 quick kline there 22:19:11 A wick is something that's periodic in one dimension only. 22:19:27 ah 22:20:01 And practical diagonal transmission at C is still elusive. 22:20:15 The fastest so far is 2c/3. 22:20:37 Phantom_Hoover, how are the known ones impractical? 22:20:48 Known whats 22:20:50 There's always the one-cell fuse. :P 22:20:50 ? 22:21:08 Known c diagonal transmitters. 22:21:36 Well, you can transmit stuff at c diagonally, but the wire is destroyed. 22:21:48 Phantom_Hoover: link to something about the lightspeed telegraph? 22:22:06 I love the Game of Life it's so rich 22:22:06 Well, here's the lightspeed wire, which might be the same thing: http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lightspeed_wire 22:22:16 It's a theorem that it's infinitely rich. :P 22:22:32 No, it's not. 22:22:39 yeah but it's like 22:22:46 there are so many human-interesting-and-comprehendable interacting patterns 22:22:48 from such simple rules 22:22:50 and they're so pretty 22:22:57 Jason Summers made it, and I think the LST is referenced in an article in the LW article. 22:23:20 http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/lightspeed/index.html 22:23:30 The LST is ~2/3 down. 22:24:01 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 22:24:21 I don't see it 22:24:24 or rather, i see tons of them 22:24:41 ah 22:24:41 i see 22:24:58 AnMaster: Earlier you mentioned cardinal gliders? 22:25:09 Phantom_Hoover, yeah cardinal as in befunge 22:25:16 don't know what it is called 22:25:20 in GOL 22:25:34 or maybe it was spaceships 22:25:38 Going up or down or sideways? 22:25:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:25:40 don't remember the difference between them 22:25:45 Phantom_Hoover, yes 22:25:46 BEST SIGNAL EVER: http://www.yucs.org/~gnivasch/life/lightspeed/tags.gif 22:25:46 That's orthogonal. 22:25:50 Phantom_Hoover, well, okay 22:25:54 uorygl: WHY 22:26:01 BECAUSE IT'S AWESOME 22:26:03 has anyone made some sort of theory of physics for GoL? 22:26:05 Phantom_Hoover, couldn't you have lightspeed-mostly wires btw? 22:26:07 Oh, yeah, the bubbles are cool. 22:26:22 Lightspeed-mostly? 22:26:27 Phantom_Hoover, as in, non-lightspeed only for turning corners and at the endpoints 22:26:33 alise: well, after studying it for a while, I've discovered that the entire Game of Life universe can be described by a few simple rules. 22:26:36 but lightspeed for straight stretches 22:26:38 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:26:40 Phantom_Hoover, see what I mean? 22:26:43 Why wasn't this on autojoin? 22:26:47 Yeah. 22:26:56 uorygl: Sarcasm is sarcastic. 22:26:59 Phantom_Hoover, should be reasonable enough I find 22:27:05 Because it would be bloody complicated, I suppose. 22:27:12 oh? 22:27:33 Life signal circuitry in general is bloody complicated. 22:27:39 uorygl: No shit. :P 22:27:40 ah 22:27:43 But I mean, something that builds on top of that. 22:27:48 Phantom_Hoover, I quite prefer wireworld myself 22:27:50 To describe what "movement" is, since the primitive notions have none. 22:27:54 Everything needs to be *exact*, or else it all blows up. 22:27:55 found it a very interesting CA 22:28:00 And Wireworld is nice. 22:28:02 etc. 22:28:12 Phantom_Hoover, and not quite as sensitive 22:28:12 this lifewiki is amazing 22:28:23 alise, link? 22:28:41 Hu alise 22:28:43 http://google.com/search?q=lifewiki 22:28:49 alise: This is why a relativistic CA is silly, because there's no inbuilt idea of speed or individual things. 22:28:51 Sgeo: hu. 22:28:54 http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page 22:29:00 Above cells, it's all abstraction. 22:29:26 AnMaster: Yes, but it lacks the variety of Life. 22:29:27 * Sgeo has his computer tethered to his phone via USB, which is getting its Internet access from wifi 22:29:38 It does what it was meant to do, and well, but that's it. 22:29:51 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:30:14 You can't have infinite growth, or replication, or spaceships. 22:30:53 Phantom_Hoover, seen that computer in wireworld? 22:30:58 it is quite awesome 22:31:02 iirc it is included in golly 22:31:05 http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Spartan_universal_computer-constructor 22:31:08 Look at this. 22:31:09 Jesus christ. 22:31:17 The Game of Life is just amazing. 22:31:31 It's a computer that controls a universal constructor. 22:31:40 Well, not /quite/ universal, but a damn good constructor. 22:31:48 "Because the machine itself consists exclusively of still lifes with seven or fewer cells, a sufficient program tape would allow the machine to self-replicate forever." 22:31:58 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:32:08 The Holy Grail of Life. 22:32:25 Self-replicators are weirdly elusive. 22:32:28 Have we yet invented Life computers that can store memory sanely? :) 22:32:44 There's a Turing machine in Life. 22:32:45 Hmm. 22:32:45 Wireworld has a universal computer 22:32:52 Sgeo: does it construct? 22:32:54 There's a simple Turing Machine in Life. 22:32:58 "simple" 22:33:01 alise: No. 22:33:04 It does look "real", though. 22:33:15 I meant does WireWorld's construct. I guessed not. 22:33:16 WW doesn't have construction. 22:33:17 Wireworld has no constructors at all. :) 22:33:19 Phantom_Hoover: Could you hook up the lightspeed telegraph to a memory store? 22:33:27 Yes. 22:33:29 I'm pretty sure it's not possible for a wireworld system to build 22:33:52 Just stick the output to a memory system. 22:34:09 Phantom_Hoover: And input? 22:34:15 Can it be a lightspeed memory-access device? 22:34:37 Here's an idea. The space around your WireWorld circuit is Game of Life space. WireWorld-live cells act as live for Game of Life, but not vice versa. Once there are six live cells (of either type) surrounding a Game of Life cell, it becomes a dead WireWorld cell. 22:34:48 Any interfacing would be at spaceship speeds. 22:34:56 Phantom_Hoover: Darn. 22:35:02 So you cannot build a lightspeed memory? 22:35:26 This also provides an obvious way of producing ROM, though ROM is probably less efficient than the memory you already have. :P 22:35:34 "Wireworld-live" as in has a wire, or has an electron part? 22:35:40 Sgeo: has an electron part. 22:35:53 brb 22:36:07 Well, not /quite/ universal, but a damn good constructor. <-- you mean garden of eden patterns? 22:36:18 uorygl: Or make some metacells for WW. 22:36:24 Universal constructors don't need to construct those! 22:36:30 are there garden of eden still lifes btw? 22:36:36 wait, that can't happen 22:36:51 That would be pretty awesome. :P 22:36:55 AnMaster, I'd assume n.. right. How about GoE-like still lives, where the only parent is the pattern itself? 22:36:55 but I mean, like garden of eden pattern, but can be directly reached from itself 22:36:58 and nowhere else 22:37:09 since obviously it must be reachable from itself to be a still life 22:37:25 Sgeo, yeah what I said, same second 22:37:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 22:37:46 uorygl, so are there such? 22:37:51 I think I said it first 22:37:59 I sure don't know of any. 22:38:08 Sgeo, reverse order here 22:38:10 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:38:12 I was first locally 22:38:15 *srhug* 22:38:19 shrug* 22:38:21 Anyway, we need a Verilog-to-GoL compiler. 22:38:23 that might possibly be even harder than a garden of eden pattern, since it would have to have only one parent _everywhere_, rather than having no parent _somewhere_, so to speak 22:38:24 Let's check the logs! 22:38:26 uorygl, VHDL* 22:38:30 :P 22:38:32 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 22:38:40 A Verilog-or-VHDL-to-GoL compiler. 22:38:45 Yep, I'm first 22:38:47 oerjan, eh? 22:39:11 A Garden of Eden pattern only needs to be parentless in one physical location. 22:39:16 That will make the entire thing parentless. 22:39:18 AnMaster: a garden of eden pattern can easily contain _parts_ that would have multiple possible parents if the rest of the pattern had 22:39:41 and it might be that that is essential to make it all work 22:39:49 *had any 22:39:50 hm 22:39:53 With a Garden of Eden still life, however, it can't have two parents anywhere; it must be only-one-parent everywhere. 22:39:56 * Sgeo wants a pattern that has no descendents! 22:39:59 oerjan, right 22:40:22 * Phantom_Hoover notices that pentadecathlon.net is active as of April. 22:40:25 oerjan, but as long as you can't get the whole eden still life? 22:40:35 There are patterns with no parents; therefore, by the pigeonhole principle, there are patterns with no children. :P 22:40:43 if you have such parts it need to be unstable if any bit of it is removed 22:40:49 * oerjan swats uorygl -----### 22:40:51 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: back to the tournament!). 22:40:52 uorygl, no that doesn't follow 22:41:16 uorygl, since we more than one pattern mapping to the same 22:41:26 Well, there you have it. 22:41:39 Two parents with only one child between them? Clearly, one of the parents is childless. 22:41:55 lol 22:41:59 but could there be patterns that are stable still lifes but can't be reached from any other configuration? 22:42:13 however on a finite space it _does_ follow that "there are patterns with no parents" <=> "there are patterns with more than one parent" 22:42:14 uorygl, group sex or something ;P 22:42:19 alise: What did you mean by lightspeed memory? 22:42:26 (from the pigeonhole principle) 22:42:28 By that definition, all sex is group sex. :P 22:42:52 oerjan, uorygl: http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/images/9/9d/Grin_preblock_evolution.png 22:42:59 even that may not work for infinite space, in fact i think it doesn't 22:43:25 http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page 22:43:27 erm 22:43:28 huh lifewiki times out here 22:43:30 now 22:43:32 Oops! Google Chrome could not connect to www.conwaylife.com 22:43:38 Oh, so it wasn't just me 22:43:40 Sgeo, it died seconds ago 22:43:55 Obviously us. 22:44:00 Phantom_Hoover, what? 22:44:09 We must have overloaded it. 22:44:17 oh I thought you meant US 22:44:24 * Phantom_Hoover is being ironic 22:44:46 Phantom_Hoover, what is the difference between a glider and a spaceship 22:45:06 A glider is a specific spaceship, the first to be discovered. 22:45:10 A glider is a specific spaceship; it's the five-cell one moving diagonally at c/4. 22:45:26 A spaceship is any pattern that translates itself. 22:45:32 oh, hm 22:45:41 It's spaceship 5-1-4. :P 22:45:49 How do things like the Fast Forward thingy work? 22:46:06 Sgeo: by detecting the front end of a ship and, if it's there, applying the back end of a ship. 22:46:08 a 22:46:09 ah* 22:46:09 It creates a LWSS regardless of whether it gets an input. 22:46:18 Or maybe not. 22:46:20 AnMaster: clearly a still life without any parent but itself must cover nearly the whole space 22:46:30 uorygl: No, that's it. 22:46:37 because otherwise you could put a single, dying pixel somewhere 22:46:50 oerjan, eh? 22:47:00 Hmm, he has a point, there. 22:47:05 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 22:47:15 Ok, so let's look for GoE-like still lives in worlds of a finite size 22:47:34 oerjan, well I excluded non-interacting patterns here 22:47:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:47:39 that is 22:47:45 ones moving far away or such 22:47:59 Or, better yet, let's do what AnMaster said 22:48:09 hm but 22:48:15 Maybe we should just consider unconstructible patterns in general. 22:48:17 any interacting pattern must destroy it 22:48:29 [Lag: 29.77] 22:48:33 FUCKING FUCK FUCK 22:48:45 WITH A HINT OF FUCK 22:48:53 like if a glider approaches it can't be allowed to self-repair 22:48:55 pikhq_: What are you connecting wiith. 22:48:59 or just kill the glider 22:49:00 uorygl, ^ 22:49:08 Phantom_Hoover: Freenode. 22:49:16 pikhq_, -_- 22:49:18 AnMaster, killing the glider won't work. 22:49:22 Phantom_Hoover, exactly 22:49:28 Phantom_Hoover, that is what I said -_- 22:49:40 like if a glider approaches it can't be allowed to self-repair or just kill the glider 22:49:41 see? 22:49:53 Oh, OK. 22:51:01 Phantom_Hoover, but a glider passing a bit away (would it need 4 cells or such? not sure of exact distance) would be fine. As long as it didn't interact in any way with the pattern 22:51:08 how large is the required margin for that? 22:51:30 2 cells empty space, I think 22:51:45 sure it isn't 3? 22:51:45 Yeah. 22:51:50 Yes. 22:51:53 hm right 22:52:20 The AND NOT gate is universal, right? 22:52:34 uorygl, you mean nand? 22:52:36 then yes 22:52:43 iirc so is nor 22:52:49 No, I mean like p AND NOT q = p AND (NOT q) 22:52:50 -!- maedhros777 has joined. 22:52:52 -!- maedhros777 has left (?). 22:52:59 I think AND NOT is also uiversal. 22:53:10 oh? didn't know that 22:53:18 and not != nand 22:53:29 22:53:31 Sgeo, English is vague 22:53:37 also 22:53:55 "and not" could sound like "and followed by not" 22:54:00 since it was gates 22:54:04 which would make a nand 22:54:27 after all you make an AND gate from a nand and an inverter normally (in CMOS at least) 22:54:30 Well, 1 & !a is !a, so 1 & !(a & !(1 & !b)) is NAND 22:54:38 Sgeo, thus it was var from obvious 22:55:44 The great thing about WireWorld is that it's really easy to make a PRNG. :) 22:56:10 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:56:15 1 & !(a & !(1 & !b)) <=> 1(a(1b'))' <=> (a1b)' <=> (ab)' 22:56:18 Phantom_Hoover, yep 22:56:22 strange notation you used 22:56:39 * uorygl stress-tests a certain AND NOT gate. 22:56:42 uorygl, oh? 22:56:58 What notation are you using? 22:57:08 AnMaster: what oh? 22:57:50 Hmm, I may be mistaken about the PRNG thing. 22:58:17 uorygl, ah 22:58:21 that is the "oh" 22:58:27 that PRNGs were easy 22:58:29 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 22:59:16 uorygl, challenge: construct a reversible gate in wireworld 22:59:17 -!- Sgeo_2 has joined. 22:59:17 that is 22:59:25 which actually works if you send signals either way 22:59:43 Well, this one is kind of reversible. 23:00:01 uorygl, so you can switch inputs with outputs? 23:00:04 Call this gate o <= p AND (NOT q). 23:00:13 It also works as q <= p AND (NOT o). 23:00:19 hm 23:00:43 uorygl, and does it have as many 1 in as out? Other thing required for a reversible one iirc 23:00:44 * Sgeo_2 wonders what's to blame for the lag 23:00:57 Essentially, it's a deleter: it looks at a wire and deletes a signal whenever it hears a signal coming in the third wire. 23:01:00 (well states with 1 in and out) 23:01:18 (obviously not for a given value, see inverter for example) 23:01:32 uorygl, can't be reversible then can it? 23:01:50 Right. 23:01:50 if data is lost 23:01:52 Hmm. 23:02:08 The cross is a gate that works either way. The problem is, it can only be used to make OR gates, I think. 23:02:15 ah 23:02:28 You can't create a 2-in 1-out gate that is reversible. 23:02:33 uorygl, I suspect that reversible gates need to be symetric, I'm not sure though 23:02:43 in wireworld I mean 23:02:58 with that I mean physically symmetric 23:02:59 Why would that be the case? You can do lots of things in WW that don't affect anything. 23:03:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:03:12 uorygl, well okay, "active elements" then 23:03:33 sure you could add a wire stump that just dies out 23:03:33 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 23:03:43 Surely you can simulate a symmetric thing with an asymmetric thing. 23:03:55 uorygl, well possibly 23:04:27 Have one side that has p NAND (not q), one that has (not p) OR q. Or however that goes. 23:04:34 And modulo capitalization. :P 23:04:37 uorygl, but doing one circuit for one way and another for the other way and then detecting from where the signal came is kind of cheating 23:04:56 Kind of. 23:05:20 Grr, my bigger PRNG also stabilized. 23:05:24 (detection needed to block feedback from output) 23:05:30 uorygl, into a cycle? 23:05:59 uorygl, don't all PRNGs cycle if you wait long enough? I'm not sure this is true. 23:06:24 uorygl: P and (not Q) is only universal if you also have the constant 1, otherwise you cannot construct anything which is always 1 from it 23:06:54 Yeah, all finite PRNGs cycle eventually. 23:06:57 This PRNG cycled quickly. 23:07:01 see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post's_lattice (if you dare) 23:07:22 oerjan: well, yeah, nothing's universal if you have only one state available to you. :) 23:07:56 uorygl: P nand Q is universal as a function of the states given, though 23:08:04 (boolean function) 23:09:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:09:03 Oh, right. 23:09:17 Well, in WireWorld, all NOT gates have to have clocks anyway. 23:09:49 Since only one pattern is static. 23:10:50 uorygl, hm? 23:11:23 In WireWorld, every pattern that does not consist entirely of dead wire and empty space turns into something else in the next generation. 23:11:33 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:11:34 well yes 23:11:50 uorygl, but why do you need a clock in an inverter in ww? 23:12:13 has it been proven? 23:12:32 AnMaster, if no signal goes in, how do you make a signal come out? 23:12:35 Unless 0 isn't just no signal, but something else 23:12:42 Sgeo_2, ah depends on how you define 0 23:12:43 yeah 23:12:48 you can have two-wire signaling 23:13:08 like fizzie did in that logic circuit in that game 23:13:12 forgot it's name 23:13:25 transport simulation... *not* simutrans 23:13:27 the other one 23:14:16 oh 23:14:18 openttd 23:14:19 that was it 23:14:31 uorygl: in fact iirc (and trying to read that web page) P and (not Q) generates _precisely_ the class T_0^inf of those functions that have an argument such that the whole function cannot be 1 unless that argument is 1 23:14:34 uorygl, you wouldn't need a clock with complementary signals right? 23:14:45 plus this could be unclocked completely I think 23:14:50 allowing async stuff 23:14:57 * pikhq shall attempt to play with the TCP rate control algorithm 23:15:05 well not exactly, you still need to generate a signal somewhere 23:15:10 pikhq, good luck 23:15:15 AnMaster: right. 23:15:52 RX bytes:7276136 (6.9 MiB) TX bytes:1575377 (1.5 MiB) 23:15:56 uorygl, such a circuit would be more resilient against everything not matching up perfectly too 23:16:14 as long as the wires did it wouldn't matter if you got a bit of delay with no signal on either 23:21:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 23:22:29 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:29:39 "We are happy to be able to continue to offer episodes of Stargate SG-1 through January 2011." 23:29:41 OH HAPPY DAY! 23:31:28 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:33:51 back 23:34:02 alise: What did you mean by lightspeed memory? 23:34:08 memory that can be written and read to at lightspeed 23:34:14 through a communication path 23:34:18 no matter what bit of memory is accessed 23:35:38 phantom meant http://pentadecathlon.com/ not .net btw 23:36:48 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431]). 23:38:58 -!- Oranjer has joined. 23:42:54 http://www.radicaleye.com/DRH/pi.html 23:42:58 Life really is the Physics Esolang. 23:43:51 [[As the number of ticks (t) increases, the population of the entire pattern approximates (pi-2)/720 t^2. At four million ticks, when the images below were captured, this works out to a value of pi correct to two places after the decimal point... so this is not quite the most efficient way to calculate pi.]] 23:43:58 The POPULATION APPROXIMATES PI. Seriously. 23:44:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:44:44 Beautiful. 23:44:52 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:46:21 -!- alise has joined. 23:46:34 What did I miss? 23:48:51 there was this procession of colorful cats 23:50:25 neat 23:52:19 Theory: We live in a relativistic, quantum universe... emulated on a Game of Life pattern. 23:55:57 There's no real way to prove or disprove that