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00:27:54 <uorygl> `translate Pero lo debo aprender para que pueda hablar con mis amigos que hablan alemán.
00:28:06 <uorygl> `translate Pero lo debo aprender para que pueda hablar con mis amigos que hablan aleman.
00:28:39 <oerjan> `translatefromto es en Pero lo debo aprender para que pueda hablar con mis amigos que hablan aleman.
00:28:42 <uorygl> What HackEgo means to say is, "But I learn so she can talk to my friends who speak German."
00:28:58 <uorygl> Which is a pretty bad translation. The word "debo" just got dropped, and where does that "she" come from?
00:29:30 <oerjan> well it has to choose a pronoun...
00:30:13 <oerjan> pueda is 3rd person isn't it
00:30:33 * oerjan doesn't actually know spanish but can make a guess
00:31:01 <oerjan> and i guess debo is "i must"
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00:31:31 <oerjan> and lo was also dropped
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00:33:06 <oerjan> `translatefromto es en Que
00:33:22 <oerjan> HackEgo doesn't do spanish at all, does it
00:33:44 <oerjan> `translatefromto en es What about the reverse?
00:34:04 <oerjan> `translatefromto en no What about the reverse?
00:34:36 <oerjan> `translate Har google skiftet format igjen?
00:34:52 <oerjan> `translatefromto no en Har google skiftet format igjen?
00:35:18 <oerjan> Gregor: it would appear `translate may have broken completely?
00:35:54 <oerjan> `translatefromto en de Are they all broken?
00:36:14 <oerjan> `which translatefromto
00:36:15 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.26530/bin/translatefromto
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01:29:11 <Gregor> oerjan: Don't tell me, FIX IT!
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02:33:28 <pikhq_> elliottcable: Even #esoteric?
02:33:45 <elliottcable> ##MacOSX is my social channel of choice nowaadys
02:33:59 <elliottcable> though I’ve a new language for you all to discuss, soon enough
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02:38:23 <Sgeo> How far do companies typically cyberstalk their employees?
02:38:42 <Gregor> To the VERY BRINK OF DEATH
02:39:06 <Sgeo> If I mention on my resume some of the projects I've worked on, they may trace that to the name "Sgeo", and from there to the fact that I'm an atheist. Legally, they can't not hire me for that, but if I don't know that that's the reason...
02:39:46 <Gregor> What sort of shitty field are you looking for jobs in that that would be a hinderance?
02:40:25 <oerjan> Sgeo: no no, they won't hire you because you're _paranoid_. you see, they hate paranoid people.
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02:42:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: Most companies are absolutely *lazy* about such things.
02:43:41 <pikhq> Don't expect them to do much more than call a reference or two.
02:44:21 <oerjan> yeah they never call your values
02:44:31 <pikhq> Also, the odds of not being hired for being atheist are fairly low in any not-completely-shitty field.
02:45:17 <pikhq> *There exist atheist priests for goodness sake*. (I'll grant that they're with the Unitarian Universalists, so this *isn't* a contradiction in terms, but still.)
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02:50:53 <Sgeo> http://enphilistor.50megs.com/irtc.htm SQUEE
02:57:57 <oerjan> or wait, am i confusing it with witches
02:58:10 <oerjan> well, you could be a wicca priest
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02:59:50 <pikhq> oerjan: You burn witches, you build bridges out of priests.
03:01:05 <oerjan> "On the Friday after Ash Wednesday Pope Benedict XVI addressed the priests of his diocese and referred to the priest as a bridge and mediator ...
03:01:06 <pikhq> And you burn the bridges made of Wiccan priests.
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03:36:54 <Gregor> I have some new material.
03:36:55 <Gregor> I'll give augur's response in advance though: "It's too stylistically different blah blah calculus of styles"
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04:12:18 <Sgeo> Why does myndzi\ have a \? It makes oerjan's \o/ less effective to me
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04:12:45 <myndzi> i'm stress testing my internet sorta
04:12:53 <myndzi> but weirdly, i did more torrenting than this the other day and no problems
04:13:01 <oerjan> don't break the internet!
04:13:39 <myndzi> i don't know why the number of connections would matter, but it seems that maybe that is the case
04:13:45 <myndzi> maybe it's comcast lies about fucking with network traffic
04:13:57 <myndzi> but my modem keeps rebooting / losing synch
04:15:49 * oerjan points out he only saw you disconnect once, anyhow
04:16:23 <myndzi> yeah, my ip didn't change and i guess there was not enough data on the pipe for the connection to die
04:16:28 <myndzi> i've disconnected like 5 times on dalnet
04:16:41 <myndzi> in the past 20-30 minutes
04:16:48 <myndzi> after a 160 hour connect streak
04:17:00 <myndzi> so it must be something with these torrents
04:17:14 <myndzi> it's gotta be my link, too, since the cable modem log shows errors and reconnects
04:17:31 <myndzi> but i was downloading the other day at like 1.5 MB/sec
04:17:36 <myndzi> and now 500k does it to me?
04:18:42 <myndzi> it won't bother me too much if i know what's going on and what settings to use to avoid it
04:18:46 <myndzi> both for me and my brother
04:18:57 <myndzi> but it bothers me that it seems random
04:19:14 <oerjan> it might depend on how much the neighbors use the net?
04:20:00 <oerjan> that's my theory whenever the local net here is dog slow, anyhow
04:20:05 <myndzi> my speed test was like 660/16000
04:20:14 <myndzi> i'm using a fraction of that
04:20:27 <myndzi> and it's not going slow, it's losing synch and reconnecting or something
04:20:32 <myndzi> i don't know what is technically going on, but i'd like to
04:20:47 <oerjan> well i'm definitely not the expert to ask
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04:33:09 <pikhq> It's Comcast. You really expect them to be anything but full of shit?
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04:34:14 <myndzi> the thing that really rankles with me is i left speakeasy for this bullshit :(
04:36:09 <Gregor> You left ... speakeasy ... for comcast.
04:36:11 <Gregor> What are you, an idiot?
04:38:18 <pikhq> ... *You left Speakeasy*. What are you, an idiot?
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04:53:21 <pikhq> sshc: Join us in making fun of myndzi.
04:57:57 <pikhq> Gregor: Inquiry: should I add that 'ADDTO' optimisation that egobfi seems to have to my BF->asm compiler? Though it'd make me have better output, I'm not sure whether or not I should give a damn about that.
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04:58:46 <pikhq> Hooray, I've been given an excuse to giveadamn.
04:59:06 <pikhq> Gregor: Just out of curiosity, how much of an improvement does that usually make?
04:59:31 <Gregor> I didn't really do much benchmarking :P
05:02:02 <oerjan> madam, this is not a palindrome, but i don't give a damn
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05:04:05 <Gregor> greasemonkey is sitting on someone's lap.
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05:10:20 <pikhq> Incidentally, this optimisation looks *ugly* using linked lists.
05:10:34 <pikhq> && l->head.x.loop->tail->tail->tail->head.x.count == -1
05:12:05 <Gregor> augur, pikhq, anybody else: Now soliciting opinions on http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-wipp5.ogg (really, only added to the end since wipp 4 .... I have a whole other section to add somewhere, but it doesn't fit yet :P )
05:12:51 * pikhq shall listen when HTTP next
05:13:45 <augur> Gregor: cant right now
05:14:40 * Gregor imagines a giant HTTP wheel spinning, with HTTP only flowing out of one hole on its edge, and pikhq constantly waiting for the gears to grind the wheel all the way 'round so he can collect some of the precious HTTP.
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05:17:58 <pikhq> I'm thinking I should rewrite this in Haskell; it's starting to look *ugly* in C, and would benefit massively from pattern matching.
05:18:16 <pikhq> Not to mention not having NULL pointers...
05:18:50 <pikhq> coppro: Brainfuck compiler.
05:19:51 <pikhq> I've got 5 lines here in C that could be replaced with 1 simple line in Haskell...
05:19:52 <pikhq> case x@(Loop [Move arg1, _, Move arg2]) of arg1 == arg2*-1 ->
05:20:40 <pikhq> Erm. Sorry. That's wrong and I SUCK
05:25:18 <pikhq> HYPERTEXT TRANSPORT PROTOCOL
05:25:21 <pikhq> OH HOW I MISSED THEE
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05:36:11 <zzo38> Have you ever seen "Uncarrot Tarot"?
05:36:41 <zzo38> The majors do not have ranks, but there are metas which trump over the majors
05:36:51 <zzo38> There are four complete suits and some incomplete suits
05:37:22 <zzo38> And when doing fortune readings with them, you are not supposed to shuffle the cards
05:38:20 <zzo38> My idea is to make a game where the "Pickle" card can be played as either a major or as the ace of pickles.
05:39:26 <zzo38> Perhaps if one player leads the four of pickles, you can play this card as the ace, but if you are void of the suit led it can be played as a trump, which will win unless a meta is played.
05:40:26 <myndzi> i want to get a regular tarot deck
05:40:28 <coppro> play Cripple Mr. Onion
05:40:32 <myndzi> playing cards, not mystical fortune telling bs
05:45:48 <zzo38> Yes, I want to get a regular tarot deck as well
05:46:57 <zzo38> But my idea for the Uncarrot Tarot is a game like that, but there is one question, what happens if multiple majors are played to a trick or if multiple metas are played to a trick, who wins? One idea is that they cancel each other out, another idea is the last one played wins the trick.
05:47:50 <zzo38> Uncarrot Tarot is incompatible with normal tarot decks, however.
05:48:00 <Gregor> pikhq, augur: Incidentally, I sure love this section that augur doesn't :P
05:48:09 <zzo38> I did make up a new tarot deck for PySol, and some rulesets http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/
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05:50:01 <zzo38> And for playing Cripple Mr.Onion, I would use the ULTRACARD, but those cards have not been produced yet. I have just written the idea so far. Just treat the blue dots as extra suits.
05:51:41 <zzo38> I would like your opinion about the cardset I created for PySol. (If you don't have PySol, you can just load the images with ImageMagick display command or Windows Picture And Fax Viewer, or whatever)
05:53:09 <zzo38> I am unsure where to buy any tarot deck, however, even though I want to buy one. I have seen a lot of tarot readers, however I am unsure if they actually sell any cards.
05:53:37 <zzo38> One game played with regular tarot cards is Gnostica, have you heard of it?
05:53:48 <zzo38> Gnostica also requires Icehouse pieces as well, though.
06:11:06 <Gregor> I'll bet the challenge of the game has something to do with gaining relevant knowledge.
06:12:43 <zzo38> Of which game, do you mean Gnostica?
06:12:52 <zzo38> Just look it up if you have a web browser window open
06:13:07 <Gregor> I was just riffing on the name :P
06:13:51 <zzo38> How much did you bet?
06:14:18 <Gregor> 'twas a gentlemen's bet.
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06:46:43 <zzo38> Do you like the cardset?
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07:26:35 <zzo38> Can it be done in Python to make a code that modifies an existing class?
07:27:09 <zzo38> PySol has one broken game "Le Grande Teton" and I want to fix it
07:29:18 <Sgeo> zzo38, to some extent
07:29:28 <Sgeo> But not as syntactically easily as, say, Ruby
07:31:26 <zzo38> How do you write a code to change an existing class, then?
07:32:00 <Sgeo> Well, to change a function, um, hold on
07:34:02 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/6Neq2
07:34:09 <Sgeo> I wasn't actually expecting c1.a() to do that
07:35:44 <Sgeo> Non-new-style-classes do the same thing
07:35:50 <Sgeo> This is Python 2.something BTW
07:38:34 <zzo38> Now I will try to see if it is fixed
07:40:35 <zzo38> Now it moved a XVI onto a 4 (which is certainly wrong)
07:41:29 <zzo38> O, I might have made a mistake
07:43:01 <zzo38> No, it is still broken!
07:43:31 <Sgeo> If it calls the function BEFORE you reassign, it won't work
07:44:07 <zzo38> It doesn't call the function before reassign
07:46:35 <zzo38> O, I think I made another mistake
07:49:09 <zzo38> PySol loads slowly
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07:52:02 <zzo38> I put the fixed file available http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/
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07:55:32 <zzo38> This game is too much easy, however.
07:55:51 <zzo38> Perhaps add some rules having to do with suits?
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08:02:56 <zzo38> One good one is Wicked (like Cruel but with tarot cards)
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13:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Can someone opinionated on this tell me what the difference between software and normal patents is?
13:59:26 <pineapple> assuming you didn't mean s/opinionated/informed/
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14:36:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: software patents have a much longer timespan relative to the length of time the thing they implement remains useful for, than hardware patents
14:37:04 <ais523> a 50-year-old internal combustion engine might be outmoded nowadays, but it's still potentially useful
14:37:11 <ais523> 50-year-old software is basically useless
14:37:27 <ais523> so the idea of patents - to give people a limited monopoly in return for disclosing how the thing works - is subverted
14:37:42 <ais523> especially as software patents tend not even to disclose how the things works nowadays
14:37:50 <ais523> old inventions, the idea was you could reproduce the whole thing from the patent
14:38:15 <ais523> many modern hardware patents have the same problem, tbh
14:38:49 <pineapple> patents these days are broader so that people are "scared off"
14:39:00 <pineapple> but braoder patents tend to be harder to defend
14:39:29 <pineapple> because if it's too broad, you might end up covering some undesired "prior art"
14:39:33 <ais523> yep, but attacking a patent is so expensive that unless you're a big company, in practice you can't
14:39:35 <Phantom_Hoover> So the problem is primarily one of relative tome limits?
14:39:36 <ais523> even if it's a really weak one
14:39:39 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: IMO, yes
14:39:44 <pineapple> ais523: your answer was helpful for me as well
14:40:15 <ais523> I'd have nothing against, say, 2-to-3-year software patents
14:40:48 <ais523> especially if they came with source code, like hardware patents used to come with blueprints
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15:14:46 <ais523> check the history, see when it happened
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16:15:11 <Gregor> (re patents) The problem is that your ability to defend a patent has nothing to do with the merit of the patent, and everything to do with how much cash you can throw at the problem.
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16:18:02 <AnMaster> Gregor, that is one of the problems
16:18:39 <AnMaster> another is the length of them as ais said. And what sort of things can be patented is another issue (genes anyone?)
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17:28:46 <ais523> is it about something I actually know about?
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17:39:32 <Zuu> It is a Phantom_Hoover !
17:40:38 * Zuu throws a lot of phantoms under Phantom_Hoover to make him hoover even better
17:41:02 <Zuu> or is that not how it works?
17:41:38 <Zuu> i thought you were hoovering on phantoms
17:42:01 <Zuu> like a water hoover
17:42:08 <Zuu> just phantom hoover
17:42:54 <Zuu> oh well, im not really into all the phantom and hoovering stuff :)
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17:58:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, somewhere on a pastebin, check logs
17:58:32 <AnMaster> also it was 1) untested (syntax check with ghdl passed but no more testing than that) 2) just one cell
17:58:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I have an issue with a port map
17:59:01 <AnMaster> ais523, in vhdl, basically I have a std_logic_vector of 32 bits that I want to reverse
17:59:20 <ais523> use a for-generate loop to reverse it rather than trying to mess with the numbering
17:59:22 <AnMaster> like: foo(32 downto 0) => bar(0 to 32)
17:59:53 <ais523> AnMaster: because mismatched numbering is a compile error
17:59:56 <AnMaster> ais523, how would that work for a single component? There is an exact copy of the same component where it should not be reversed
18:00:08 <ais523> make a wire-reverse module
18:00:18 <AnMaster> ais523, okay so how do you do this with a for generate as you said? :/
18:00:22 <ais523> umm, component, not module
18:00:51 <ais523> I can't remember the exact syntax (I just get Emacs to do it), but you want 32 iterations, one which connects each wire
18:00:54 <ais523> and just use simple arithmetic
18:01:15 <AnMaster> ais523, another thing, timing, is the wait construct simulation only?
18:01:42 <ais523> all forms of it, even the infinite loop
18:01:52 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you get the same effect as "wait for rising_edge(clock)" in synthesisable code?
18:01:52 <ais523> there are huge restrictions on processes in synthesis
18:01:59 <AnMaster> err, not sure that syntax was perfectly correct
18:02:12 <ais523> pretty much all you're allowed is a process that contains nothing but one if statement
18:02:16 <ais523> that's conditioned on a rising edge
18:02:24 <ais523> and that's how you do it
18:02:58 <ais523> even more so, it's only synthesisable if you write the statement exactly, not a synonym
18:03:05 <AnMaster> that makes the stack a headache
18:03:08 <ais523> things like writing a comparison backwards defeat synthesisers
18:03:49 <AnMaster> ais523, what about arrays and unsigned, are those also simulation only?
18:03:51 <ais523> just look up the exact template for it online
18:03:54 <ais523> or use Emacs, it knows it
18:04:09 <ais523> arrays can be synthesised, within reason
18:04:16 <ais523> it basically just makes a multiplexer to access them
18:04:22 <ais523> but I think any individual array's write-only or read-only
18:04:24 <AnMaster> because trying to map funge space to linear backing memory I can only figure out a solution using a cast to unsigned and then back to std_logic_vector
18:04:35 <ais523> basically it's a set of wires and you can choose the nth wire to look at
18:04:39 <AnMaster> ais523, ah so good thing I made the memory a separate module
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18:04:52 <AnMaster> since current implementation is likely simulation only
18:04:58 <ais523> and you can do unsigned arithmetic on std_logic_vector easily enough
18:05:54 <AnMaster> ais523, std_logic_vector(unsigned(x) * 25 + unsigned(y)); <-- what about that? simulation only?
18:06:26 <AnMaster> and if yes, what is a better solution to map the funge space to linear address
18:07:01 <ais523> AnMaster: syntax looks muddled, there; you want a variable of type std_logic_vector, not a std_logic_vector itself
18:07:08 <ais523> but it's actually synthesisable IIRC
18:07:19 <ais523> yep, but some casts synthesise
18:07:33 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it is assigned to a signal that is connected to the memory entity
18:07:49 <ais523> really, try reading the standards, they explain what's synthesisable and what isn't
18:07:57 <ais523> you can't expect me to remember after a couple of years
18:08:05 <ais523> (I'm not sure if they're free online, though)
18:08:32 <AnMaster> if so I should be able to get it through what university subscribes to
18:08:37 <AnMaster> if it is ISO I'm out of luck...
18:10:03 <AnMaster> ais523, so another question, how would you do the stack? I was considering an entity that exposes the top two values on stack as "registers" basically, plus a push and a pop signal.
18:10:12 <AnMaster> but trying to implement it proved hard
18:10:37 <ais523> array with a pointer into it
18:10:45 <ais523> same way you do a stack in asm
18:11:39 <AnMaster> ais523, and how would one expose it outwards of the stack entity then?
18:11:50 <AnMaster> or is that abstracting too much ;P
18:12:03 <ais523> try not to abstract /too/ much
18:12:11 <ais523> my advice would be to have the TOS available as a signal for anything to read
18:12:19 <ais523> together with signals to increase and decrease the stack pointer
18:12:27 <AnMaster> ais523, how would you do \ and such then?
18:12:35 <AnMaster> it would need two cycles wouldn't it?
18:12:44 <ais523> yes, unless you pipeline
18:13:19 <ais523> hmm, could be hard in befunge with p and g
18:13:38 <ais523> but the basic idea is you have registers for the top few stack elements, which are normally read and written, and you do the stack updates "in the background" at the same time
18:13:45 <ais523> it's pretty complex that way, though
18:13:50 <ais523> maybe you should just take multiple cycles
18:13:57 <ais523> that's what most early processors did
18:14:32 <AnMaster> also handling stack emtpy would need some special logic, so having TOS just a signal seems a bit tricky. Something need to handle popping and pushing as well. And the logic of stack empty at least
18:14:52 <AnMaster> stack full handling doesn't have a sensible answer anyway
18:15:36 <AnMaster> ais523, a fixed number of cycles per instruction or variable depending on which instruction?
18:16:01 <ais523> on the contrary, stack empty is really easy
18:16:11 <ais523> if you try to decrease the SP when it's at 0 already, just leave it alone and write a 0
18:16:14 <AnMaster> conclusion: bottom-up-design does not work very well for VHDL
18:19:07 <AnMaster> the TOS/inc/dec thing would need to be extended with some sort of data in? or did you mean TOS to be inout basically? Plus something would have to update it from the array on push and pop, so presumably that would be clocked... hm
18:20:06 <AnMaster> ais523, splitting the stack logic and such over multiple cycles seems pretty complex as well
18:20:14 <Phantom_Hoover> What are the esi and edi registers in x86 actually for?
18:20:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, aren't they GPR?
18:20:30 <ais523> they're pointer registers
18:20:45 <ais523> for use with instructions that automatically update the pointers
18:21:03 <ais523> I'm trying to remember the names
18:21:08 <ais523> but I used them with http://esolangs.org/wiki/MiniMAX
18:21:19 <AnMaster> btw I'm pretty sure I seen GCC generate code that uses those as GPR
18:21:33 <AnMaster> ais523, what does the SW stand for there?
18:21:42 <ais523> which is (*(short*)di++) = (*(short*)si++)
18:21:45 <ais523> and string word, I think
18:21:58 <AnMaster> ais523, hm is it used with REP or such then?
18:22:08 <ais523> yes, designed for use with REP
18:22:15 <ais523> but it's rather nice for asm gold anyway
18:22:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Couldn't you have an incredibly small interpreter just by making it take x86 machine code and execute it?
18:23:08 <ais523> I suppose if you want "smallest non-cheating", you could insist that the interp code is non-self-modifying
18:23:17 <ais523> and that nothing in the original program's memory space is ever executed
18:23:22 <AnMaster> ais523, btw can VHDL express async circuits. I mean that type we discussed some weeks(?) ago? Quasi-something.
18:23:39 <ais523> although most synth tools won't synthesise them well
18:23:41 <AnMaster> huh, can't imagine how to be frank. XD
18:23:44 <ais523> because they assume a global clock
18:23:56 <ais523> and you'd need cores for the non-delay-insensitive parts
18:24:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Would it be feasible to fabricate a circuit on a torus?
18:24:38 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc electric (FOSS VLSI EDA tool) can generate layout schematics from VHDL. Very very very restricted vhdl iirc but still..
18:24:53 <AnMaster> (hm nice acronym combo there XD)
18:25:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: ASIC fabrication is three-dimensional nowadays anyway
18:25:43 <ais523> and FPGAs probably have crossing wires internally too
18:26:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, depends on size of torus I suspect
18:27:11 <AnMaster> ais523, aren't ASICs still constructed on flat waffers though?
18:27:21 <ais523> they're not infinitely thin
18:27:42 <AnMaster> bbl got to rush, will be back in about 1 hour
18:27:51 <ais523> and the longer you expose the ASIC wafer to the doping agent, the deeper the p-type or n-type region goes
18:27:59 <ais523> do it several times, and you get "underground" regions
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19:03:23 <oerjan> that's cheating, there was no syn
19:05:17 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'd mock you for not knowing, except i'm looking it up myself
19:06:46 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_Control_Protocol#Connection_establishment
19:07:06 <oerjan> apparently it can be used for DoS though
19:18:23 <oerjan> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockstress
19:21:01 <pikhq> oerjan: ... How can that work? Linux doesn't store any TCP state until the connection starts...
19:21:17 <pikhq> ... Oh. Wait. It actually finishes the connection and then doesn't use it.
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19:39:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> and the longer you expose the ASIC wafer to the doping agent, the deeper the p-type or n-type region goes <-- aha
19:39:44 <AnMaster> also wtf is up with middle mouse copy and paste
19:40:02 <AnMaster> never seen anything like this...
19:40:30 <AnMaster> <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'd mock you for not knowing, except i'm looking it up myself <-- XD
19:40:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, iirc syncookies are off by default
19:40:50 <AnMaster> need some sysctl to turn it on
19:41:02 <AnMaster> due to it restricting tcp window size or something iirc
19:41:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's silly.
19:42:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, well iirc it is encoded in the tcp window size upper bits or something
19:42:28 <pikhq> No, in the timestamps, wasn't it?
19:42:54 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SYN_cookies
19:43:07 <AnMaster> it needs to be stored somewhere apparently
19:43:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, so yeah it stored in timestamp or somewhere, but it had to store the MMS in it. Unless I misread that page.
19:43:50 <AnMaster> (bit tired, so quite possible)
19:44:00 <pikhq> It's Towel Day today.
19:44:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, and that iirc meant it couldn't allow the full range of MMS values, only some
19:44:41 <AnMaster> "There are, however, three caveats that take effect when SYN Cookies are in use. First, the server is limited to only 8 unique MSS values, as that's all that can be encoded in 3 bits."
19:44:57 <AnMaster> "Second, the server must reject all TCP options (such as large windows), because the server discards the SYN queue entry where that information would otherwise be stored."
19:45:48 <pikhq> I seem to recall an option to only start using SYN cookies when the SYN queue got filled.
19:46:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, that would be a reasonable compromise
19:46:24 <pikhq> Better to have slightly reduced performance than no performance, after all.
19:47:07 <AnMaster> anything like syncookies for that?
19:47:20 <pikhq> SCTP? What's that?
19:47:33 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_Control_Transmission_Protocol
19:47:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, it seems better than TCP when it comes to many things
19:48:36 <pikhq> It apparently uses cookies in connection negotiation.
19:48:48 <AnMaster> the API however seems to be a bit more complex to use (at least under linux). Though I haven't actually used it. Just looked at the docs
19:49:10 <AnMaster> could be some of the complex stuff was optional
19:49:16 <AnMaster> some of it was certainly I think
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19:57:55 * pikhq realises that you could still have an email with a bang path
20:00:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
20:36:19 <pikhq> Can you call it "again" if it's the same damned war?
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20:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> A CA using the von Neumann neighbourhood should be representable as a planar graph.
21:15:42 <AnMaster> * pikhq realises that you could still have an email with a bang path <-- really?
21:18:19 <AnMaster> okay so it isn't copy and paste that is broken, it is middle click in X in general
21:18:38 <AnMaster> hm *tries mouse in other computer*
21:20:12 <AnMaster> (well at least not in the mouse, and I find it hard to believe that an usb host controller could break such that only middle click, nothing else, is broken)
21:26:44 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm remind me. Is it proven or not if wirecrossing is required for TC?
21:26:48 <Sgeo> http://antisocialrap.com/Future_Hop/Downloads/06-H2G2.mp3
21:27:02 <AnMaster> "proven", why the heck does aspell thing that is typoed?
21:27:28 <AnMaster> is it correct spelling or not?
21:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it depends on the definition of wire-crossing.
21:32:12 <Deewiant> See any dictionary. (I think you're misunderstanding what I called correct.)
21:33:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, it just requires that you get email using a not-IP protocol routed through an Internet-accessible host.
21:34:25 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so can a von Neumann CA be represented as a non-planar graph?
21:35:30 <pikhq> (that not-IP protocol could feasibly even be UUCP *over* IP. :P)
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21:48:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Why, oh why, has the Cthulhu musical not been performed?
21:53:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I must find a musical theatre company and threaten them until they do it.
21:55:10 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/firefox says near the bottom "It's your Firefox. Do what you want with it. Find an add-on that's perfect for you on Rock Your Firefox.". How very not true. I'm using Namoroka...
21:55:38 <AnMaster> (which exists because I'm not allowed to do what I want with firefox)
21:58:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It says that whether or not you're using Firefox.
21:58:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, build a firefox binary and distribute it with the official logo and under the name firefox. As a linux distro you have to either use upstream build or non-official branding
21:58:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, with non official branding it uses the code name of the release. Which happens to be namoroka for me
21:59:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it seems unreasonable to me. Only the mozilla project does this
21:59:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, so that's why FFX3.5 worked weirdly when it was first released.
21:59:23 <AnMaster> no other project that I know of
22:00:27 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The trademark license is pretty silly.
22:00:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it is just the case of who built it. And linux distros don't like firefox to check for updates to itself, it should be done with package manager there. I'm not sure how ubuntu manages to get the upstream official branding and not have the thing check for binary updates...
22:01:02 <pikhq> To use the official branding, you have to do some silly shit to be "authentic Firefox".
22:01:13 <AnMaster> hm about on ubuntu says "Mozilla Firefox for Ubuntu"
22:01:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Ubuntu complies with the trademark license.
22:01:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, and what does that license require?
22:01:30 <Zuu> Maybe someone already attempted to establish an alternative widespread unofficial bradking of the firefox browser?
22:01:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, ask the upstream to build it for you?
22:01:51 <Zuu> .. that you coul duse, instead of yet another different branding
22:01:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Limits the kinds of patches you can use.
22:02:13 <Zuu> Update your parser :P
22:02:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, well arch linux hardly ever use anything but upstream patches. Presumably the only thing they do is disable the "search for update" alternative and disable the branding
22:02:37 <pikhq> A major reason Debian stopped using official branding, for instance, was that it stopped them from backporting security updates.
22:03:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: They may be just using the codename as a CYA thing.
22:03:24 <pikhq> "We follow the trademark license *now*, but there's no guarantee we will in the future"
22:03:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Cover Your Ass.
22:03:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, okay they change one default setting too. Make it use the LANG env variable by default
22:04:18 <Zuu> AnMaster: well, i dont care to repeat myself just to fix a single typo
22:04:25 <AnMaster> -browser.startup.homepage=http://www.mozilla.org/projects/namoroka/
22:04:25 <AnMaster> +browser.startup.homepage=http://www.google.com/firefox
22:05:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, other than that it looks completely standard. And wtf at the build system config file. mozconfig contains lines like:
22:05:25 <AnMaster> ac_add_options --libdir=/usr/lib
22:05:48 <pikhq> Mozilla's build system is *awful*.
22:06:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, but but... ac_add_options? it sounds like autoconf. But autoconf doesn't take options from a file
22:06:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: See? Awful.
22:08:20 <AnMaster> anyway my original point is that that text on http://www.google.com/firefox is absurd when you consider this silly branding issure
22:08:37 <AnMaster> well, it seems to be randomly selected *shrug*
22:09:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, pikhq: that file also contains some bash code
22:09:32 <AnMaster> ac_add_options --with-branding=browser/branding/unofficial
22:09:47 <AnMaster> mk_add_options BUILD_OFFICIAL=1
22:09:48 <AnMaster> mk_add_options MOZILLA_OFFICIAL=1
22:10:08 <pikhq> Mozilla's source code is, as a whole, awful.
22:10:10 <AnMaster> oh and this sources another mozconfig file at the top:
22:10:13 <AnMaster> . $topsrcdir/browser/config/mozconfig
22:10:16 <pikhq> And possesses multiple garbage collectors.
22:10:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently it's written such that only Mozilla coders can use it
22:10:26 <AnMaster> so yeah definitely bash/shell of some sort
22:10:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, presumably the arch linux package maintainer managed to handle it
22:11:45 <AnMaster> strange subject line from spam: "70% off on alcoholics"
22:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> AFAIK the people who maintain distros are in fact disembodied brains in jars.
22:13:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: I especially hate how Mozilla likes to bundle individual copies of Gecko with each and every program of theirs.
22:13:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, is it part of xulrunner?
22:14:00 <AnMaster> at least arch linux builds against an external xulrunner
22:14:10 <AnMaster> so it is shared between firefox and thunderbird
22:14:10 <pikhq> Gecko is the entire rendering engine, including XUL.
22:14:41 <pikhq> XUL is a language supported by Gecko.
22:15:03 <AnMaster> <insert relevant question here>
22:15:09 <Zuu> represent user interface stuff
22:15:16 <pikhq> XUL describes the UI of a Gecko-engine program.
22:15:34 <pikhq> Along with Javascript, HTML, and CSS...
22:15:44 <pikhq> XULrunner is a thin wrapper around Gecko.
22:16:23 <AnMaster> btw what exactly does the SMART attribute Raw_Read_Error_Rate mean?
22:16:34 <AnMaster> it seems to behave in different ways on different disks I had
22:16:49 <pikhq> Anyways. Here's how Mozilla does their builds. Firefox has its own Gecko. Thunderbird has its own Gecko. Songbird has its own Gecko. XULrunner has its own Gecko.
22:17:14 <AnMaster> my current disks seems to either do it as some average over a short time and "worst" value never stored (worst == current always)
22:17:16 <pikhq> Because *libraries* are too hard.
22:17:39 <AnMaster> some other disks seems to do it as a ever-incrementing counter. Slowly yes
22:18:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, and firefox is linked against the same libxul as thunderbird is
22:18:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: I never said that they statically linked against Gecko.
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22:19:01 <pikhq> Yes, that's because you're using a nonofficial build.
22:19:13 <pikhq> One set to just link against the system copy of Gecko.
22:19:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, official builds must use separate?
22:19:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, even ubuntu official kind of build?
22:19:40 <AnMaster> if so that is not just silly. It is stupid
22:19:56 <pikhq> As the "shared XUL" thing is not officially supported.
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22:20:03 <AnMaster> stupid := silly with all the fun removed
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22:20:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, why on earth don't they start doing shared XUL? they could save download bw themselves. And it would take less space
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22:21:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, include xul installer with download. Install if not already installed
22:21:30 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They have shared libraries too y'know.
22:21:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well it could be download on demand
22:21:46 <AnMaster> a lot of installers on windows were like that last I looked
22:21:50 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The Firefox installers are already download on demand.
22:22:00 <AnMaster> as presumably offline install of browser or email app is fairly useless
22:22:15 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but they still *have* them.
22:22:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it already uses *.dll iirc
22:22:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is one possible issue. Depends on if the ABI is stable or not
22:23:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: It is *quite* stable.
22:23:30 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Binary interface.
22:23:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, what I meant was, would upgrading system copy when upgrading firefox require recompiling thunderbird as well?
22:23:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, application (what pikhq said)
22:24:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: Only for 1.x versions *of Gecko*.
22:24:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, think API (application programming interface). Now API can be stable while ABI might not be. In that case just recompiling things would work. If API changes you would have to change the code using it as well.
22:24:44 <pikhq> (which happen quite rarely; there's been 9 such releases since Mozilla 1.0)
22:24:48 <AnMaster> also ABI can be compiler level stuff
22:24:56 <AnMaster> (like calling convention changes)
22:25:04 <AnMaster> but that is "kind of" a different type of ABI
22:25:12 <pikhq> (3 such releases since *Firefox* 1.0)
22:25:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, heh. So where do the updates to pass ACID3 and so go? Wouldn't that at least require update of gecko
22:26:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: Those don't break ABI. :)
22:26:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh you mean 1.x versions break ABI?
22:26:37 <AnMaster> why not put that at the major number
22:26:45 <AnMaster> or is the major number for breaking API?
22:26:50 <pikhq> Because no-good-reason.
22:26:54 <pikhq> Probably for breaking API.
22:27:14 <pikhq> Which was last done when Netscape Navigator 4.0 was open-sourced, I *think*.
22:27:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, so a lot of no longer used cruft is still there?
22:27:49 <pikhq> Have you *looked* at Mozilla's code?
22:28:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, no. I heard enough horror stories
22:28:12 <AnMaster> and just looking at the build system was bad enough
22:28:30 <pikhq> They've still got VRML support in there somewhere.
22:28:44 <AnMaster> I want an elegant browser. Lean. Fast. Reasonably good support for various js stuff and such. Oh and open source.
22:29:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, VRML. What the heck was that. It sounds familiar
22:29:22 <pikhq> 90s technology for 3D stuff.
22:29:27 <pikhq> Firefox *might* still support it.
22:29:44 <AnMaster> do they plan a gecko 2 with cleaned up API?
22:30:01 <pikhq> For Firefox 4, IIRC.
22:30:18 <AnMaster> how far into the future is that?
22:30:23 <AnMaster> what is the next planned release?
22:30:51 <AnMaster> 2.0, 2.?, 3.0, 3.1, 3.5, 3.6, 4.0?
22:30:53 <pikhq> (not counting bug-fix releases against 3.6)
22:31:12 <AnMaster> and I'm pretty sure there was no 3.2, 3.3 or 3.4
22:31:19 <pikhq> 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 3.0, 3.5, 3.6, 4.0
22:31:30 <pikhq> Firefox's versioning scheme is all sorts of odd.
22:31:35 <AnMaster> so didn't remember it quite right
22:32:01 <AnMaster> surely they must think about a reason to number it like that
22:32:02 <pikhq> Firefox is developed by a bunch of monkeys who can't do much well.
22:32:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, not the linux version no
22:32:55 <AnMaster> but the windows versions sucks
22:33:06 <AnMaster> no noscript, adblock and so on iirc
22:33:14 <pikhq> Webkit is an awesome engine.
22:33:29 <AnMaster> firebug is another nice firefox add-on
22:33:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, but yeah any browser lacking noscript and adblock functionality is just out of question
22:34:36 <pikhq> The extension support is still a work in progress.
22:34:43 <Sgeo> There is adblock, but it's not perfect
22:34:53 <Sgeo> There is builtin noscript stuff
22:34:58 <AnMaster> and then I mean the basics, noscript: block javascripts/plugins on pages unless allowed explicitly, ability to do temporary exception as well as store between sessions
22:35:17 <AnMaster> adblock: block on domains, regex on urls, a white list feature should exist
22:35:53 <AnMaster> sure noscript does a lot more, but I'm not very interested in that
22:36:22 <AnMaster> Sgeo, can it do what I mentioned?
22:36:41 <Sgeo> Don't know about the temporary exception stuff
22:36:43 <AnMaster> and which browser were you talking about?
22:37:01 <AnMaster> ah does the linux version have the same features? I have no idea
22:37:28 <AnMaster> Sgeo, also the adblock thing needs to be able to block on all type of urls. Not just images, included javascripts too (how else to get rid of google ads?)
22:37:41 <AnMaster> and included objects of other types
22:38:07 <Sgeo> The Adblock stuff are addons, don't know much about those
22:38:26 <Sgeo> But I don't think they actually block anything, they more hide it, iirc
22:38:34 * Sgeo uses Flashblock
22:39:07 <AnMaster> and I don't want tracking cookies and such
22:39:42 <AnMaster> cookies must be "always ask, dialog should allow: never from this site, always from this site, always but discard at end of session, allow once, deny once"
22:56:07 <AnMaster> At some point my harddrives will fail (of course). I make a prediction about that even: In the current RAID 1 configuration, /dev/sda will fail first.
22:56:28 <AnMaster> I'm fairly certain about this.
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22:58:15 <AnMaster> Why? Based on SMART attributes it seems slightly less excellent than /dev/sdb
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23:18:48 <Rugxulo> is AnMaster here or asleep or ... ?
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23:55:08 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, if you want to catch me use /msg and use a bouncer so you stay connected and I can reply :P