has shown up, but the rest of the page hasn't 14:21:51 <AnMaster> ais523, could be packet loss, try ping? 14:22:09 <ais523> can't, I'm on a network that filters ICMP 14:22:16 <AnMaster> ouch 14:22:23 <ais523> traceroutes only go about 3 hops before hitting a firewall 14:22:25 <AnMaster> that's evil 14:22:29 <ais523> it's strange, as it doesn't seem to filter anything else 14:22:33 <Phantom_Hoover> 0% packet loss for me. 14:22:39 <ais523> apart from possibly port 25 14:22:59 <AnMaster> ais523, what about non-PING ICMPs? 14:23:10 <AnMaster> like, destination unreachable or whatever 14:23:12 <ais523> not sure even how to generate those 14:23:25 <ais523> presumably it doesn't filter destination unreachable /replies/ 14:23:26 <AnMaster> pretty sure you can with nmap 14:23:38 <ais523> but if I send a destination unreachable into the internet as a whole, the recipient will wonder wtf is going on 14:23:52 <ais523> assuming they don't just discard it 14:23:57 <AnMaster> ais523, "internet as a whole"? 255.255.255.255?! 14:24:01 <ais523> hah, go for it 14:24:11 <AnMaster> well that won't get far I can tell youy 14:24:14 <AnMaster> you* 14:24:15 <ais523> except that all sane routers refuse to respect the defined semantics of such an address 14:24:24 <AnMaster> exactly 14:24:37 <AnMaster> and that is a good thing 14:24:51 <ais523> I still like the concept of having an IP address that means "the entire internet", even if you can't actually use it in practice 14:24:53 <ais523> *Internet 14:24:57 <AnMaster> hehe 14:25:16 <ais523> hmm, stopped loading and tried again, it loaded in less than three seconds 14:25:31 <AnMaster> ais523, few broadcasts tend to get past any routers iirc 14:25:45 <AnMaster> mostly it only works on the same network segment or whatever the name is 14:29:15 <ais523> IIRC, the default for stealing variables in CLC-INTERCAL is to broadcast to the whole Internet in the hope of finding some other running INTERCAL program to steal from 14:29:22 <ais523> which makes the whole thing rather like Network Headache 14:29:30 <ais523> although ofc you can specify which IP address to steal from 14:29:31 <AnMaster> XD 14:29:42 <ais523> running multiple INTERCAL programs on the same address is an exercise for the reader 14:29:46 <AnMaster> ais523, as 4 one-dots? 14:29:46 <ais523> although not really an insurmountable one 14:29:53 <AnMaster> (or whatever the name was?) 14:29:56 <ais523> AnMaster: I can't remember the format 14:30:04 <ais523> probably as one twospot 14:30:06 <AnMaster> ais523, so you can't change the port btw? 14:30:07 <ais523> for IPv4 14:30:13 <ais523> and the port's specified in a config file 14:30:19 <AnMaster> ah 14:30:29 <AnMaster> ais523, well then you can use that to run more than one, no? 14:30:35 <ais523> that's cheating! 14:30:47 <AnMaster> ais523, or can't it have different local and remote port? 14:30:56 <ais523> you could just have a variable with a program identifier in 14:31:00 <ais523> leave it permanently ignored 14:31:08 <ais523> and just smuggle it to see if you're stealing from the right program 14:31:13 <AnMaster> XD 14:31:23 <AnMaster> ais523, another alternative: 127.0.0.2 and so on 14:31:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I assume you can configure which IP to bind on 14:31:47 <ais523> that's specified in the program 14:31:55 <AnMaster> ah, even simpler then 14:32:00 <ais523> btw, I know the whole of 127/8 is supposed to have the same semantics 14:32:08 <ais523> but in practice, doesn't it often work only for 127.0.0.1? 14:32:15 <AnMaster> ais523, think so 14:32:44 <AnMaster> I think for windows it is so, and it used to work for other ones in older versions 14:32:57 <AnMaster> forgot why 14:33:08 <AnMaster> (why they removed it that is) 14:33:18 <AnMaster> under linux it should work for the whole block 14:33:27 <AnMaster> unless your distro does it in a silly way 14:33:41 <AnMaster> hm 14:33:49 <AnMaster> inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 14:33:50 <AnMaster> inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host 14:33:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Can a neural network be Turing complete? 14:33:53 <AnMaster> I'm no expert on that 14:34:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, why not? If it can somehow grow it's state that is. 14:34:28 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: only if infinitely large, or has infinite state some other wa 14:34:28 <AnMaster> not that I'm any expert on how neural networks work 14:34:30 <ais523> *way 14:34:35 <Phantom_Hoover> So, what about my idea. 14:34:40 <ais523> apart from that, I don't see why it would fail to meet any of the other neural network requirements 14:34:51 <AnMaster> ais523, so just add ability to grow at runtime 14:35:05 <ais523> AnMaster: typical neural networks in computing are incapable of growing 14:35:28 <AnMaster> ais523, sure, but why not add that feature? Then you could add computer cancers to computer viruses in the future ;P 14:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover> You can make a function that takes a neural net and evaluates its fitness, then evolve accordingly. 14:35:40 <ais523> fwiw, even human brains stop growing new neurons after a while, although they keep making new connections 14:36:15 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc new ones grow but very slowly? Pretty sure I saw some relatively recent research result mentioned about that somewhere 14:36:19 <ais523> hmm, I'm glad that ::1/128 is the only address that's loopback in ipv6 14:36:23 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm, interesting 14:37:16 <AnMaster> ais523, a bit hazy on the details. But iirc after some certain age it was very very slow, so for "practical purposes" it was "stopped", but not completely 14:37:17 <AnMaster> iirc 14:37:25 <ais523> hmm, distro update's now at the stage where Firefox breaks at random 14:37:34 <ais523> out of all the programs I use, it's the one that least likes being used while being upgraded 14:37:36 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I seem to have a /64... 14:37:44 <AnMaster> that is larger than ipv4 right? 14:37:47 <AnMaster> yeah 14:37:51 <AnMaster> twice as large 14:38:00 <AnMaster> that is assigned to my ipv6 tunnel 14:38:10 <AnMaster> which is when you think about it, quite absurd 14:40:37 <ais523> it's actually over 4 billion times as large 14:40:49 <AnMaster> ais523, twice as many bits though 14:40:52 <ais523> yes 14:40:53 <AnMaster> was what I thought about 14:41:04 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like many things. 14:41:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't imagine what I need this for. It isn't even as if I got ipv6 tunnel sharing to the rest of the LAN to work... 14:41:44 <Phantom_Hoover> They made a format, decided it was too small, then made one so ridiculously huge there's more space than you could possible need. 14:41:59 <ais523> AnMaster: the idea's that you have enough to do for anything you might want to do 14:42:08 <ais523> say, why not give every program running on your computer its own public IP? 14:42:23 <ais523> that doesn't strike me as an insane thing to want to do 14:42:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I would need 172 ips currently for that 14:42:45 <AnMaster> but that includes kernel tasks 14:42:59 <ais523> why use dbus when you can use tcp? 14:43:09 <ais523> well, tcp/ip as a whole 14:43:17 <AnMaster> can't imagine what use giving [md2_raid1] it's own ip would be 14:43:18 <AnMaster> :P 14:43:25 <AnMaster> ais523, sctp clearly 14:43:52 <ais523> why send signals when you can send ICMP packets? 14:44:53 <AnMaster> ais523, because sending custom ICMP needs root 14:45:03 <AnMaster> ais523, why else did you think ping was suid root? 14:45:08 <ais523> obviously this would be in a hypothetical future OS 14:45:11 <AnMaster> ah 14:45:27 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no clear mapping of SIGTERM and so on 14:45:29 <AnMaster> plus 14:45:33 <ais523> besides, even with something like Linux, you could just change the rules so that pinging things in the same process group didn't need root 14:45:47 <AnMaster> why would you want to expose it outwards 14:45:59 <ais523> you don't, you firewall it 14:46:05 <ais523> but you still have it there for uniqueness 14:46:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well what if you make a small error in the firewall config 14:46:16 <AnMaster> that is easy with linux 14:46:25 <AnMaster> what with netfilter/iptables being basically mad 14:46:26 <ais523> maybe, if you're doing remote procedure calls or whatever, you could open up a gap in the firewall to send signals back and forth between apps 14:46:30 <ais523> AnMaster: ufw? 14:46:39 <AnMaster> ais523, dumbed down last I looked 14:46:49 <AnMaster> beyond usefulness 14:47:00 <ais523> not really 14:47:18 <ais523> the advanced syntax thing works well enough for all the firewalling I need 14:47:28 <ais523> although IIRC I don't actually have any ports open at all for any reason atm 14:48:10 <AnMaster> hm 14:48:51 <ais523> Status: active \ Logging: on (low) \ Default: deny (incoming), allow (outgoing) 14:49:34 <AnMaster> hm 14:49:45 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe it got better since I last looked at it 14:50:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I wanted to do rate limiting on new connections to port 22 and couldn't figure out how to. With iptables it was messy but possible 14:50:45 <ais523> ok, your firewall desires are a lot weirder than mine 14:50:53 <AnMaster> heh 14:51:06 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you use "the advanced syntax thing" for? 14:51:24 <ais523> specifying which IPs were allowed to connect 14:51:32 <ais523> when I open a port, I normally open it only to one other computer 14:51:56 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and of course I want to log strange packets, like those produced by nmap xmas scan 14:52:04 <AnMaster> which is in iptables: 14:52:04 <ais523> AnMaster: ufw limit 22/tcp 14:52:13 <AnMaster> LOG tcp -- anywhere anywhere tcp flags:FIN,SYN,RST,PSH,ACK,URG/FIN,SYN,RST,PSH,ACK,URG limit: avg 5/min burst 5 LOG level alert prefix `XMAS:' 14:52:26 <AnMaster> from iptables -L 14:52:30 <AnMaster> a bit different to enter it 14:52:36 <AnMaster> (it also drops it after it logs it) 14:52:37 <ais523> on the other hand, ufw doesn't seem to have options to specify what sort of rate-limiting you want 14:52:39 <ais523> just whether you want it or not 14:52:49 <AnMaster> and yes that is rate limited to not flood the log 14:53:31 <ais523> hmm, are those the packets with every single option turned on simultaneously? 14:53:38 <ais523> I always wondered why you'd want to do that 14:53:41 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that is what the xmas scan is 14:53:52 <AnMaster> there are some other ones to log as well 14:54:25 <ais523> hmm, so why /do/ people send such packets? 14:54:54 <AnMaster> ais523, man nmap? Because for some OSes it fucks up system/reveals which OS it is/something else 14:55:00 <AnMaster> iirc that is the common reason 14:55:20 <ais523> I don't have nmap installed, and I'd get in trouble if I tried to 14:56:03 <AnMaster> ais523, huh? is this not your netbook? 14:56:24 * Phantom_Hoover needs to go 14:56:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:56:32 <ais523> yes, but it's connected to a university network atm 14:56:36 <AnMaster> hm 14:56:52 <AnMaster> "The key advantage to these scan types is that they can sneak through certain non-stateful firewalls and packet filtering routers." 14:56:54 <AnMaster> ais523, from man page 14:57:07 <ais523> ah 14:57:12 <AnMaster> that is from the section: "-sN; -sF; -sX (TCP NULL, FIN, and Xmas scans)" 14:57:17 <ais523> computer security is so weird 14:59:08 <AnMaster> what on earth is that front loader out there doing 14:59:11 <AnMaster> wtf 15:01:14 <AnMaster> hm no idea. just driving back and forth a few meters, not doing anything in specific 15:01:20 <AnMaster> as far as I can tell 15:19:26 <Ilari> Heh... Years ago I had firewall rules that dropped all packet flag combos that "should not happen"... 15:23:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:25:03 <AnMaster> Ilari, mine functions more as a simple IDS in that it looks at some specific well known weird ones. 15:25:39 <AnMaster> anyway my point was that ufw is very limited 15:27:19 <Ilari> I think the valid combos are SYN, SYN+ACK, SYN+ACK+PSH, ACK, ACK+PSH, ACK+URG, ACK+URG+PSH, RST, FIN and FIN+ACK (and maybe some others). 15:28:00 <ais523> what does SYN+ACK mean? 15:28:12 <ais523> wouldn't the SYN and ACK need different sequence numbers unless you were very lucky? 15:28:31 -!- marchdown has joined. 15:28:32 <Ilari> IIRC, it is used to signal connection accepted. 15:28:53 <ais523> ah, ok 15:29:05 <AnMaster> yeah what Ilari saifd 15:29:06 <AnMaster> said* 15:29:16 <AnMaster> it is one of the first ones exchanged during a new connection 15:29:39 <AnMaster> forgot if it was SYN → SYN,ACK → ACK or SYN → ACK → SYN,ACK 15:29:44 <AnMaster> the former I think 15:30:06 -!- marchdown has quit (Client Quit). 15:30:21 <Ilari> Ah, SYN+ACK+PSH isn't valid (because second packet is not allowed to have payload and PSH impiles payload). 15:31:05 <AnMaster> Ilari, what about SYN ACK URG? 15:31:21 <Ilari> So SYN+ACK?, ACK+PSH?+URG?, RST and FIN+ACK? 15:31:43 <AnMaster> Ilari, can't RST be combined with anything? 15:31:58 <Ilari> I don't think it can... 15:33:06 <AnMaster> Ilari, according to wikipedia there are more flags 15:33:10 <AnMaster> CWR and ECE 15:33:25 <Ilari> Yes, I ignore them here. They are used by congestion control. 15:34:22 <AnMaster> what flags do tcp6 have? 15:34:43 * AnMaster forgot how much changed between ipv4 and ipv6 TCP 15:34:47 <AnMaster> iirc some stuff did 15:35:15 <AnMaster> ah yes, quite a different header format it seems like 15:37:23 <Ilari> Eh, do tcp4 and tcp6 have very different header formats? 15:37:29 <AnMaster> somewhat 15:37:48 <AnMaster> not very different 15:37:59 <AnMaster> wider tcp length for example 15:38:04 <AnMaster> to allow much larger packages 15:40:05 <Ilari> TCP(v4?) header includes: Source port (16 bits), Destination port (16 bits), Sequence number (32 bits), Acknowledgement number (32 bits), data offset (4 bits), flags (8 bits), window (16 bits), checksum (16 bits), urgent pointer (16 bits), options (variable) and padding (variable). 15:41:03 <AnMaster> Ilari, didn't you miss packet length there? 15:41:20 * Phantom_Hoover notes that there seem to be no good neural network libraries for Common Lisp 15:41:22 <AnMaster> because that is what is wider. Also ipv6 seems to have a "next header" field 15:41:24 <AnMaster> err 15:41:27 <AnMaster> tcp6 15:41:28 <AnMaster> I meant 15:41:38 <Ilari> TCP header does not have packet length. IP header does. 15:41:40 <AnMaster> hm 15:41:57 <AnMaster> Ilari, ah that explains this. It is a combined view of both ip and tcp headers 15:42:12 <AnMaster> bbl 15:43:03 <Ilari> IPv6 next header is equivalent to IPv4 protocol field. 15:46:30 <Ilari> Ah, its also used for options. 15:46:31 <AnMaster> ah 15:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose I'll have to bolt a Lisp interface onto a C library, then... 15:48:59 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:51:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, for? 15:51:47 <AnMaster> oh up there 15:51:48 <AnMaster> right 15:51:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Remember that insane suggestion I made? 15:52:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, so I decided the easiest way to do it would just be to make the source a CL function which takes a neural net and evaluates its fitness. 16:00:54 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:01:19 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 16:05:32 <Phantom_Hoover> What is the point of public and private in C++? 16:05:44 <ais523> abstraction 16:05:54 <pineapple> i think it's supposed to encourage good programming practices 16:05:58 <ais523> if you mark something private, you can then safely change it from then on 16:06:01 <ais523> without breaking existing code 16:09:45 <Phantom_Hoover> So it's purely to make sure you don't do something stupid? 16:11:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:11:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:11:35 <Deewiant> And in libraries, that users don't do anything stupid 16:12:52 -!- ais523_ has joined. 16:13:21 * Phantom_Hoover remembers why he likes Lisp 16:13:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I went off it for a while when I couldn't get any interesting libraries to compile. 16:14:19 <Phantom_Hoover> And don't get me started on how stupid asdf is. 16:16:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:16:44 <AnMaster> anyone know a command line tool to prepend a line number to every line 16:16:53 <AnMaster> as in foo | add_line_numbers | bar 16:18:03 <ais523_> hmm, upgrade mostly seems to have worked 16:18:04 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 16:18:06 <AnMaster> ah, nl 16:18:23 <ais523> although Konversation is currently interpreting "you have been made channel admin" as "you have been banned" 16:18:30 <ais523> which is a rather great misinterpretation 16:30:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: cat -n 16:32:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm already found nl 16:32:47 <AnMaster> also I have a cat here that doesn't know cat -n 16:32:50 <Deewiant> I noticed 16:32:54 <AnMaster> (a non-GNU cat) 16:32:56 <Deewiant> And yeah, GNU cat only 16:33:02 <AnMaster> while nl is posix 16:33:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, freebsd cat seems to know cat -n 16:33:18 <Deewiant> O_o 16:33:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the one that didn't was from an old openbsd install 16:43:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, a clowder of cats. 16:52:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone respond to my pun! 16:55:55 <ais523> heh, Reddit noticed Ursala 16:56:30 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't notice it was a pun 16:56:33 <ais523> it was that bad 16:56:42 <ais523> and still don't get it even after you've pointed it out 16:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a play on "cat", the animal, the collective noun for which is "clowder", and "cat", the UNIX utility, of which there are many variants, but for which there is no commonly-accepted collective noun. 16:59:56 <ais523> I've never heard that collective noun used for the animals before 17:00:11 <ais523> "herd" would make a good one, though, after the well-known simile 17:00:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently it's "clowder". 17:00:41 <Phantom_Hoover> So perhaps the simile should be "like clowdering cats". 17:03:38 * ais523 puts the window max/min/close buttons back where they were before, then puts the window menu back 17:04:07 <ais523> a) the placement's arbitrary anyway so I may as well have them where I'm used to, b) I'm used to being able to close a window from /both/ top corners 17:04:10 -!- tombom has joined. 17:04:24 <ais523> and you can't with Ubuntu's new layout 17:06:02 <AnMaster> <ais523> heh, Reddit noticed Ursala <--- ? 17:06:05 <AnMaster> a star? 17:06:07 <AnMaster> what about it? 17:06:19 <ais523> no, the programming language 17:06:29 <ais523> which should be considered ontopic here despite not being deliberately an esolang 17:06:54 <ais523> http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/ 17:07:51 <ais523> <Deestan> Another important design goal of Ursala was to discourage "code obfuscation" techniques. This can be done elegantly by making sure that all syntactically valid programs are no more readable than their obfuscated counterparts. 17:08:02 <ais523> reddit criticism can be so scathing sometimes 17:12:09 <AnMaster> heh 17:12:22 <AnMaster> ais523, it isn't much worse than J 17:12:25 <AnMaster> as far as I can see 17:12:40 <ais523> there are some interesting ideas in there 17:12:53 <ais523> but they're buried under the mess of &pseudopointers~ 17:13:44 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? 17:14:06 <ais523> have you seen the virtual machine it compiles to? 17:14:31 <AnMaster> no 17:14:41 <AnMaster> only looked at some of the examples on there 17:14:58 <ais523> beh, reading about the language itself is much more fun than the examples, which don't make much sense in the abstract 17:16:22 <AnMaster> ais523, "Programs that read this format should be as lenient as possible, accepting anything that looks remotely like a PGM. " 17:16:29 <AnMaster> from the PGM file format spec 17:16:36 <ais523> haha 17:16:43 <AnMaster> ais523, it is discussing the ASCII variant of the file format 17:16:47 <AnMaster> as opposed to the binary 17:16:48 <ais523> what's that format for? 17:16:55 <AnMaster> ais523, PGM is an image format 17:17:08 <AnMaster> "pgm - Netpbm grayscale image format " 17:17:24 * AnMaster was messing with this to generate a map of bad pixels for his camera 17:17:44 <AnMaster> the ASCII format is rather easy to parse 17:18:49 <AnMaster> and gimps saves it as one pixel per line. So I can just use curves to hide everything but the hot pixels, save as ASCII pgm, then do: nl curve_hide.pgm | grep -Ev $'\t0$' > foo.txt 17:19:03 <AnMaster> and then remove some of the meta data at the start 17:19:44 <AnMaster> and then the x values can be fetched as (linenumber - 5) % image_with (or integer division for y coord) 17:19:55 <AnMaster> -5 is to compensate for a few lines of meta data 17:20:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:21:46 <AnMaster> ais523, is that ursala open source? 17:21:46 <AnMaster> hm 17:21:50 <ais523> yes 17:21:53 <ais523> well, the main interp of it is 17:22:01 <ais523> I don't know if a programming language can be inherently open source 17:22:09 <AnMaster> well yeah 17:22:13 <AnMaster> and what did you say was the issue with it? 17:22:21 <ais523> with ursala? 17:22:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you copyright the spec? 17:22:22 <AnMaster> "&pseudopointers~"? 17:22:33 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I was discussing the implementation there 17:22:40 <ais523> AnMaster: read the docs, the concept is too complicated to easily describe in less than a few pages, but I'll try 17:22:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Or indeed patent it... 17:22:58 <ais523> in Ursala's VM, everything is written as just lists 17:23:05 <ais523> which can only contain other lists (and can be empty) 17:23:09 <ais523> so all data structures work like that 17:23:20 <ais523> now, you can create a sort of "pointer", like "head of tail of tail of head" 17:23:27 <ais523> to access a particular location in a data structure 17:23:53 <ais523> imagine that you have more complicated pointers like "both the first and second element of a pair"; that contradicts what I just said, but it's possible in Ursala too 17:24:05 <ais523> and it has a crazy syntax for stringing these things together to make complicated accessors 17:24:17 <ais523> that looks like a load of letters between & and ~, normally 17:24:29 <ais523> now, imagine you have something that is completely different from everything I just said 17:24:33 <ais523> but it's shoehorned into the same syntax 17:24:36 <ais523> that's a pseudopointer 17:24:38 <ais523> got it? 17:24:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> which can only contain other lists (and can be empty) <-- hm reminds me of lambda calculus in a remote kind of way. 17:24:51 <AnMaster> (not lists there, but everything is functions kind of) 17:25:06 <ais523> yes, the basic concept is not incredibly insane 17:25:09 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:25:14 <ais523> there are quite a few interesting thoughts behind the language 17:25:16 <AnMaster> ais523, for being efficient it probably is 17:25:19 <ais523> just enough insane ones that the result is mad 17:25:32 <AnMaster> ais523, also to quote the feature page: 17:25:35 <AnMaster> "Exact calculations involving integers and rationals are implemented by purpose written libraries packaged with the compiler. Standard floating point and complex numbers are manipulated natively using the host system's C library routines. Arbitrary precision floating point numbers are handled by the mpfr library, but without need of explicit storage allocation or reclamation at the source level." 17:25:39 <AnMaster> if everything is a list 17:25:44 <AnMaster> then how does it do the floating point 17:26:03 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:26:06 <AnMaster> I mean, does it store it as some combination of lists or such 17:26:15 <ais523> if you try to look at a floating-point number's representation on the fly, it'll decompose it into lists for you 17:26:28 <ais523> and presumably vice versa, if you try to use a list as a floating-point number 17:26:31 <AnMaster> ais523, but what is it actually represented as in the VM? 17:26:45 <ais523> I don't know the list representation of a floating-point number off by heart 17:26:50 <ais523> I am not an expert in Ursala 17:26:56 <ais523> just someone who managed to get almost halfway through the docs 17:27:04 <ais523> which probably means I know more about it than almost anyone else 17:27:07 <AnMaster> <ais523> now, you can create a sort of "pointer", like "head of tail of tail of head" <-- caddar ? 17:27:23 <ais523> yes, actually the idea behind the syntax is the same 17:27:47 <ais523> but Lisp caddadadadar sorts of things don't have things like operator precedence and binary operators 17:28:08 <AnMaster> ais523, on the other hand caddar kind of stuff reads backwards (IMO) 17:28:10 <AnMaster> also wait a second 17:28:22 <AnMaster> pointers having operator precedence? 17:28:28 <AnMaster> or what did you say? 17:28:32 <AnMaster> oh wait, misread 17:28:55 <AnMaster> however, such a concept does sound interesting 17:29:22 <ais523> AnMaster: ok, more fun: instead of (abc), it uses the notation abc3 17:29:34 <AnMaster> ais523, is this the VM or the language? 17:29:35 <ais523> you don't use parens, you use numbers saying how many things to parenthesise 17:29:37 <ais523> the language 17:29:46 <ais523> oh, and you use P rather than 2 17:29:49 <AnMaster> ais523, and postfix notation for it? 17:29:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it's an effectively-postfix notation 17:30:05 <ais523> this is all just the pseudopointers 17:30:12 <ais523> the language has another entirely separate notation for other things 17:30:16 <AnMaster> XD 17:30:27 <AnMaster> ais523, what happens if you use a 2 instead of a P? 17:30:32 <ais523> I don't know 17:30:49 <ais523> you think I'm mad enough to /write/ in this language? 17:30:56 <ais523> I'll stick to INTERCAL, thank you very much 17:31:11 <AnMaster> ais523, XD 17:31:25 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean it is more insane than INTERCAL? 17:31:36 <ais523> INTERCAL is not insane 17:31:39 <ais523> it's deliberately strange 17:31:42 <ais523> but it has a kind-of logic to it 17:31:48 <ais523> it's hard to write, but I wouldn't call it insane 17:31:56 <AnMaster> ais523, hm BANKCAL, needs to be done 17:32:21 <AnMaster> (combining bankstar with INTERCAL) 17:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> BANCSTAR, actually. 17:32:30 <ais523> no, there'd be no point 17:32:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ah right 17:32:46 <ais523> and I thought it was capitalised BancSTAR 17:32:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, implement INTERCAL in BANCSTAR then ;P 17:32:50 <ais523> but I might be wrong on that 17:32:56 <ais523> also, there are no docs for BancSTAR anywhere 17:32:59 <ais523> just a bit of example code 17:33:04 <AnMaster> oh good point 17:33:07 <ais523> with no explanation, so that the person who wrote it didn't get sued 17:33:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Why would you get sued for that? 17:33:35 <ais523> because BancSTAR is secret and proprietary 17:33:43 <ais523> the person hosting the article about it actually got takedown notices 17:33:50 <AnMaster> ais523, the implementation would be. But hardly the language itself? 17:34:04 <Phantom_Hoover> The example might have been? 17:34:14 <AnMaster> hm 17:34:18 <ais523> and I guess the language was an in-house trade secret 17:34:41 <AnMaster> wasn't it a third party product they used? 17:34:48 <ais523> that's a good point 17:34:57 <ais523> actually, IIRC the language was originally the VM for something else 17:35:02 <AnMaster> yeah 17:35:06 <ais523> but the something else was too limited so they started using the lang directly 17:37:45 <AnMaster> ais523, a GUI generation tool iirc 17:38:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Why not make OpenSTAR? 17:39:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Or EsoSTAR? 17:39:33 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not enough info about it 17:39:40 <AnMaster> bbl food 17:39:49 <Phantom_Hoover> We'll make our own language, then. 17:40:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, err, see esolang wiki 17:40:17 <AnMaster> we made a lot of our own :P 17:40:37 <Phantom_Hoover> That is indistinguishable from BancSTAR? 17:40:38 <AnMaster> I'm quite fond of /// (article on esowiki is "slashes" iirc) 17:40:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ah no 17:40:45 <AnMaster> bbl food really now 17:43:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone know much about shared libraries and GCC? 17:43:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Like how to make one? 17:49:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Interfacing between CL and C is complex... 17:50:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:00:17 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Saliendo). 18:03:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:08:43 <ais523> hmm, I thought we got http://esolangs.org/wiki//// to work? 18:08:56 <ais523> ah, apparently not 18:14:55 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, how do I use .so's from a non-standard directory? 18:15:44 <ais523> there's an environment variable you can set, IIRC 18:15:49 <ais523> but I've forgotten what it's called 18:15:51 <ais523> AnMaster probably knows 18:16:28 <Phantom_Hoover> zsh doesn't give anything. 18:16:53 <Deewiant> LD_LIBRARY_PATH 18:17:16 <ais523> ah, thanks Deewiant 18:17:23 <ais523> does that replace or add to the standard locations? 18:17:33 <Deewiant> Add 18:18:06 <Phantom_Hoover> The whole shared library system is strange to me... 18:18:12 <AnMaster> hm? 18:18:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what Deewiant said or rpath 18:18:32 <AnMaster> rpath would be at link time of the application 18:18:40 <AnMaster> that way no need to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH 18:19:02 <AnMaster> of course you can also just make the path a standard path if you wish. /etc/ld.so.conf 18:19:06 <AnMaster> and then ldconfig after 18:19:13 <AnMaster> might or might not be a good idea 18:19:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, thanks. 18:19:34 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, iirc LD_LIBRARY_PATH prepends to the standard path btw 18:28:06 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 18:59:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Googling "why language x is awful" gives some... interesting results. 19:02:28 <pikhq> "Why Befungebrainfuck is awful" :P 19:03:11 <pikhq> "OH GOD WITH THE TWO DIMENSIONAL NESS AND THE SELFMODIFICATION AND THE TAPE" 19:16:53 <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with people complaining about C's type system. 19:17:02 <Phantom_Hoover> It makes perfect sense from a certain angle. 19:17:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: There are many legitimate complaints about it. 19:17:18 -!- tombom_ has joined. 19:17:22 <pikhq> For instance, it doesn't go far enough. 19:17:43 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:17:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, obviously you don't expect 1+"hello" to even compile, but it still makes sense. 19:18:03 <ais523> "ello" 19:18:07 <pikhq> 1+"hello" certainly compiles. 19:18:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed. 19:18:27 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq: Yes, but if you were learning C, you wouldn't expect it to. 19:18:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And then they find out that C strings are syntactic sugar around array literals and it's all peachy. 19:19:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:19:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed. 19:19:54 <Phantom_Hoover> And array literals are syntactic sugar for pointers. 19:20:00 <Phantom_Hoover> That is also importand. 19:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> s/importand/important. 19:21:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway... 19:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> CFFI is sapping my resolve. 19:29:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Aha, I have found a Git thing for cl-fann 19:47:05 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> And array literals are syntactic sugar for pointers. <-- not exactly 19:47:28 <AnMaster> char *foo = "bar"; 19:47:28 <AnMaster> vs. 19:47:32 <AnMaster> char foo[] = "bar"; 19:47:40 <AnMaster> quite different results in that case 19:48:03 <AnMaster> the former will point to a read only copy of the string literal "bar" 19:48:19 <AnMaster> the latter will contain a read write copy 19:49:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: The former is not const-correct. 20:01:16 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:17:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:19:15 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:39:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:41:56 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:46:51 -!- tombom__ has joined. 20:48:28 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:53:02 -!- tombom has joined. 20:55:23 -!- tombom__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:15:54 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:21:55 -!- Zuu has joined. 21:21:55 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 21:21:56 -!- Zuu has joined. 21:25:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:25:20 <Phantom_Hoover> WtH? 21:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> What sort of insane client doesn't tell you when you get disconnected due to ping timeouts? 21:26:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:26:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I now need to work out how cl-fann works. 21:26:58 <Phantom_Hoover> And neither comments nor variable names are in English. 21:28:27 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:31:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:12:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Bahh, I must go. 22:16:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:17:26 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:17:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:26:08 <oerjan> Leonidas: did you find out what permute does? 22:28:57 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 22:46:05 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: The former is not const-correct. <-- true, but it will by default compile without a warning 22:46:29 <AnMaster> needs more than -Wall -Wextra iirc 22:46:37 <AnMaster> -Wwrite-strings or some such 22:47:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, it just needs -std=gnu99 or -std=c99. Which makes it so that const exists. :) 22:59:53 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 23:01:21 <ais523> const exists in C89 23:02:24 <pikhq> Never mind then. 23:02:58 <oerjan> vad constigt 23:04:58 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:06:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:08:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:09:22 -!- Vegabondmx has joined. 23:11:08 -!- coppro has joined. 23:11:08 -!- coppro has quit (Changing host). 23:11:08 -!- coppro has joined. 23:13:57 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:16:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, -_- 23:16:18 <AnMaster> night 23:18:00 <oerjan> :) 23:18:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:27:31 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:29:51 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:31:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:31:35 <pikhq_> So much trouble staying connected. 23:33:48 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 23:57:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).

00:01:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:02:50 yeah, I figured it was too late there 00:03:02 stupid timezones :-P 00:07:59 OK, so can a von Neumann CA be represented as a non-planar graph? 00:08:22 um, the neighborhood graphs for _both_ von Neumann and Moore neighboorhoods are planar. 00:09:04 if you mean anything else by represented, please specify. also, please read the logs. 00:09:26 er wait 00:09:33 not Moore 00:09:46 but definitely von Neumann 00:16:25 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: Rugxulo). 00:22:05 -!- Oranjer has joined. 00:25:48 `translate Ellas comen unos tostitos. 00:26:04 No output. 00:34:31 uorygl: that lazy bum Gregor told me we should fix `translate ourselves 00:34:43 but i'll show him. i'll out-lazy him! 00:34:46 `rm bin/translate 00:34:48 No output. 00:34:48 Fixed. 00:34:58 Win. 00:35:07 `translate I don't think that makes a difference 00:35:08 No output. 00:35:26 True. 00:45:02 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 00:50:42 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:04:55 -!- Oranjer has joined. 01:06:39 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:07:15 -!- coppro has joined. 01:08:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:15:06 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 01:31:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:39:24 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:44:56 -!- Zuu has joined. 01:44:56 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 01:44:57 -!- Zuu has joined. 01:47:54 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 02:37:34 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:43:25 -!- augur has joined. 02:53:24 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:57:06 -!- lament has joined. 03:08:40 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 03:13:40 -!- jcp has changed nick to javawizard2539. 03:13:44 -!- javawizard2539 has changed nick to javawizard. 03:13:46 -!- javawizard has changed nick to jcp. 03:19:42 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:22:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:25:25 -!- Oranjer has joined. 03:38:16 -!- augur has joined. 03:46:19 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:47:55 -!- augur has joined. 03:50:15 brussel sprouts are so good omg 03:51:40 Especially with butter, heavy cream or something like that? :-> 03:53:24 That's "Brussel's sprouts" 03:53:34 Erm 03:53:38 Minus the apostrophe :P 03:54:00 It's hard to type Brussels without thinking it's a possessive. 03:55:02 no no 03:55:19 Easy when you recall that Brussels is a place name. 03:55:20 brussels sprouts, broccolo, oil, salt, pepper, baked 03:55:21 omg 03:56:22 to brustle -- to bro rustle, that is, to steal bros from a field as they graze on natty ice 03:57:07 "broccolo"? 03:57:25 What is this strange language you speak, augur? 03:57:43 broccolo, you know, one head of broccoli 03:57:47 as opposed to mean heads 03:57:50 which are broccoli! 03:58:09 Broccoli glans 03:58:55 (broccoli glans is the head of broccoli :P ) 03:59:29 i bet it is 04:01:02 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:03:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:04:15 -!- augur has joined. 04:04:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:05:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:05:45 -!- augur has joined. 04:22:37 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:25:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:32:29 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:33:09 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:42:52 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:44:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:04:18 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 05:17:52 very meta, xkcd 05:18:19 -!- sshc has joined. 05:19:28 xkcdsucks is gonna have a field day 05:19:58 i thought the comic itself was nice 05:20:09 but the alt text could have been better 05:20:14 Same. 05:24:08 The xkcdsucks for 744 isn't up yet 05:25:13 http://wikisuperosity.com/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges Somehow, I don't think I'm going to bother to get involved with this wiki 05:26:06 you don't say O_o 05:32:04 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:50:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:04:52 very meta, xkcd <-- argh, parsing the alt text hurts 06:05:03 err, title="" 06:05:04 not alt 06:05:07 but meh 06:10:49 -!- coppro has joined. 06:56:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:04:14 -!- tombom has joined. 07:20:19 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:51:13 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:03 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 08:27:34 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:44:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:45:05 -!- augur has joined. 08:46:10 -!- MizardX has joined. 08:55:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:59:37 -!- atrapado has joined. 09:00:56 does anyone know of an X server that just forwards to another X server, but can have the target server disconnected and another one reattached later? 09:08:22 coppro, eh, like screen for X? 09:08:30 yeah 09:08:30 or how do you mean 09:08:37 exactly like screen for X 09:08:37 alas, no 09:08:53 coppro, have a running xserver + X11vnc or such? 09:09:02 that's too much work though 09:09:06 or do you mean forward as in, reattach to desktop? 09:09:19 which vnc won't provide 09:09:33 yeah, it should run them in the local server 09:09:44 well I don't know one 09:09:47 go code one 09:09:54 I'm sure a lot of people would find it usefuk 09:09:57 useful* 09:10:00 the toughest bit would be handling reattachment I think 09:10:01 I certainly would 09:10:22 coppro, well, you need to hide deattch/reattach from the programs 09:10:33 the program never notices 09:10:35 since X can't handle that sort of stuff 09:10:45 coppro, also opengl would be a pain 09:11:04 why? 09:11:11 oh, I guess, yeah 09:11:23 hmm 09:11:27 stupid X persistent resources 09:11:27 for example: nvidia drivers mmap stuffs iirc 09:11:29 actually 09:11:31 that's the tricky bit 09:11:35 X mmaps stuff if local 09:11:41 shared memory communication 09:11:48 rather than socket 09:11:58 which makes this quite hard 09:12:26 The local server would have to maintain anything like resources that might get buggered by a server restarting 09:12:48 fortunately, an application already has to cope with being moved onto a new screen 09:13:05 coppro, hm? that is the same X server isn't it? 09:13:07 yes 09:13:17 well, that way you don't have to change as much 09:13:39 but so things like random "you lose OpenGL" are already accounted for (in theory) 09:14:03 you don't lose opengl due to moving between screens do you? 09:14:03 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:14:22 if they have different cards and one has no drivers, you might 09:14:27 also, as I said, I'm pretty sure X11 uses shm for local clients. And for opengl it would be very slow to use the socket method 09:14:59 shm = shared memory? 09:15:11 yeah 09:15:24 then I'll need to spoof it into thinking it's nonlocal 09:15:35 coppro, and that is quite a speed difference 09:15:36 (if I do in fact do this) 09:15:58 opengl over non-shm is not feasible I suspect 09:16:15 AnMaster: This is mostly intended for network use anyways. OpenGL speed is not a concern 09:16:17 coppro, of course you could use shm against the client but then socket to the server 09:16:26 or shm to both 09:16:34 it depends on how much you are willing to do 09:16:41 I'd have to research the spec more. It's quite possible OpenGL isn't really feasible to implement 09:17:08 coppro, there are other stuff than opengl that could cause issues 09:17:09 I suspect 09:17:12 yes, I know 09:17:22 Anything that X persists would have to be intercepted by the proxy 09:17:38 it would have to persist them itself, and establish new copies of them when it connected to a new server 09:17:39 coppro, what about xinerama? 09:17:55 I don't think that matters? 09:18:08 coppro, you would have to forward such info to the client I suspect 09:18:15 or things could go strange 09:18:35 any info that the proxy doesn't need to handle is forwarded directly 09:18:51 have you ever tried a non-xinerama build of firefox on a dual head X server (using nvidia twinview, not multiple screens)? 09:18:57 no 09:19:00 I had menus appear on the wrong screen 09:19:10 like file menu showed up on the other monitor from the application window 09:19:31 lol 09:19:46 coppro, rebuilding with xinerama support fixed it 09:20:19 the proxy would retrieve any screen/display/xinerama/whatever info upon connecting to a server, and inform the client about the changes. Anything beyond that is handled by the communication directly between the server and client 09:20:41 coppro, there are some extensions that could cause issues still 09:20:54 yes, well, those could be handled on a case-by-case 09:21:01 what would you do if client used xrandr for example? 09:21:14 forward directly to the server, do not pass go, do not collect $200 09:21:21 coppro, "X RandR is used to configure which display ports are enabled (e.g. LCD, VGA and DVI), and to configure display modes and properties such as orientation, reflection and DPI." 09:21:27 I know what it does 09:21:29 ah 09:22:03 I don't see how it's an issue. The goal is to make the client act as if it's connected the target server, except that the target server might randomly change. 09:23:02 and if it does, the proxy needs to handle any aspect of that change so that the client, other than possibly noticing a radical change in geometry, can proceed normally 09:23:02 coppro, yes and that is the issue. You would have to notify it about xrandr changes and such to reset the client's state when you change the "host" server 09:23:09 yes, I just explained that 09:23:25 coppro, and what with all the X11 extensions that could be quite a messy task 09:23:26 all geometry info is retrieved when connecting to a new server; clients are informed of the changes 09:23:35 after that, geometry communication is server-client 09:24:11 if a server is disconnected, nothing happens until a new one is connected, so it's like the application was just left idle normally 09:24:41 the tricky thing is handling any persistence info, like window IDs 09:24:46 or resources or something 09:25:06 the proxy needs to create a virtual set of them that the client sees 09:25:31 and reestablish them upon connecting 09:26:43 coppro, what is the app grabs the mouse and hides the pointer 09:26:50 will that be auto restored on reconnection? 09:26:58 (say, a game or whatever) 09:27:13 Not at first, for sure 09:27:20 coppro, that could confuse the app 09:28:08 AnMaster: I've seen it happen with badly-written applications before. The result is an immovable default cursor in the default position; the game's cursor works fine 09:28:14 so it's not horrible 09:28:21 hm 09:28:43 (this occurred when using Debian's virtual terminals to switch away from X and back to it) 09:29:19 ah 09:29:23 "debian's"? 09:29:37 you know that is a linux feature, not specific to debain 09:29:37 I don't know if other distros have it; I know Debian does 09:29:38 debian* 09:29:41 ok 09:29:45 wasn't sure on that one 09:29:47 Ctrl-Alt-F* 09:29:53 I could also imagine a situation where the default cursor is mobile, but the game is still tracking its own cursor. It would also be weird 09:30:02 coppro, they would have had to patch to kernel for it ;P 09:30:15 AnMaster: I wouldn't put them past it. 09:30:28 hah 09:30:58 anyways, I think I'd just see what events X normally passes if it loses screen control like that and replicate them upon a reconnection 09:32:04 and then let badly-written applications eat cake. 09:32:25 hmm... what should this be called... Also, Erlang. 09:32:46 coppro, what? X11 protocol in erlang? 09:32:52 * AnMaster shudders 09:33:04 Erlang's the obvious candidate for this! 09:34:06 coppro, I would have said that C was 09:34:20 for managing tons of connections simultaneously? no thanks 09:34:22 since then you can use X11 header files for stuff 09:34:44 coppro, you mean multiple apps per "bouncer"? 09:34:52 as for name. xdtach? 09:34:55 AnMaster: Yes, it would be a full server 09:35:10 there is dtach which is like screen but with most features except deattaching and reattaching removed 09:35:27 yeah, sounds about right 09:35:37 coppro, but I can't pronounce xdtach 09:35:51 ecks-dee-tatch 09:36:13 or XD-tach 09:36:33 http://dtach.sourceforge.net/ <-- strangely enough this is not a project from the authors of dwm and slock (as far as I know). It would fit right into that category though 09:37:34 ideally you could even run a DM through it, but that's another can of worms 09:37:42 coppro, can't do XD-tach. XD(TM)(R) memory cards(TM)(R) 09:37:44 ;P 09:37:47 :P 09:38:00 -!- augur_ has joined. 09:38:12 coppro, oh yeah... how do you handle dbus? 09:38:17 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:38:20 coppro, a lot of apps these days use dbus 09:38:23 AnMaster: SILENCE 09:38:35 coppro, a lot of those wouldn't work correctly then 09:38:51 coppro, anything like gtk or qt apps would be a pain 09:39:11 sure, simple motif apps or such, no problem I bet 09:39:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:39:54 You'd probably need a similar daemon that would do the same with dbus 09:40:17 hm how does dbus interact with ssh X11 forwarding? 09:40:22 I doubt ssh forwards dbus 09:40:51 coppro, so it might not be required 09:40:53 who knows 09:41:11 or you could just run it locally and hope that keeping it disconnected from the target machine wouldn't explode things 09:41:21 heh 09:41:24 actually, no, you musn't actually need it 09:41:35 eh? 09:41:39 or at least run it connected 09:41:56 think of a non-ssh network X connection 09:42:02 you could be connecting to /anything/ 09:42:10 including a Windows machine 09:42:23 hm 09:42:26 yeah probably 09:42:40 coppro, still what about interacting with window manager 09:43:05 coppro, I suspect it might be problematic if you switch from a host with, say, metacity to one with kwin 09:43:15 or even worse, from a "normal" one to a tiling WM 09:43:24 in fact, tiling WMs open up a new can of worms 09:43:27 AnMaster: Not much different than replacing a running WM 09:44:22 coppro, that can cause buggy behaviour in my experience 09:44:36 in fact, it would be slightly easier 09:44:45 coppro, also, I can't imagine how replacing a non-tiling one with a tiling vm would work well 09:44:51 since a reconnection would involve the proxy opening up a new set of windows 09:45:28 coppro, in a tiling wm it might be problematic to allocate the correct window sizes 09:45:40 that's the wm's problem 09:46:06 pretty sure the X standard suggests it is the problem of the client to fit into the space given by the wm :P 09:46:20 err, yes 09:46:36 it is the client's problem to do that 09:46:50 well you said " that's the wm's problem" 09:47:03 you said "allocate the correct window sizes" which is the wm's problem 09:47:10 it is the client's problem to fit in them 09:47:17 coppro, it might give you a smaller size back 09:47:21 than what you requested 09:47:21 sure 09:47:28 happens all the time 09:47:48 the proxy could help by forcibly resizing the window down 09:47:55 yes sure 09:48:02 after that, it's the client's call 09:48:03 but that is more logic 09:48:12 the window stuff will be the toughest 09:48:19 and I don't use a tiling WM, which is also important 09:48:52 plus, if this is as ridiculously useful as it seems like it would be, it will become and instant it, I will receive song and praise and volunteer developers 09:48:58 *an instant hit 09:49:21 heh 09:49:37 coppro, you think there are enough people interested who know erlang 09:49:45 they'll learn! 09:49:49 they'll all learn! 09:49:52 mwahahaha! 09:49:57 coppro, also using erlang more or less makes opengl impossible 09:50:04 why? 09:50:21 you need very high performance for it probably. 09:50:21 just the protocol? 09:50:26 plus 09:50:36 iirc you need to use shm to get reasonable speed 09:50:55 sure you think about network but most people would probably like to use it locally 09:51:28 HIPE if necessary. Shm is a serious cluster if you detach from a local server and move to a remote one. 09:51:51 HIPE doesn't help that much 09:52:23 coppro, also the thing could use shm against the clients, and non-shm "upstream" 09:52:30 oh and X11 protocol is a mess 09:52:43 yeah, I realize both of those things. 09:52:59 plus I'm not sure how stable it is. As in, clients being supposed to use the stable APIs of libx11 (or more recently, libxcb iirc) 09:53:17 how well defined is the actual protocol 09:53:18 no clue 09:54:00 X is pretty well-defined 09:54:08 I've read the spec before 09:54:44 and it's got to be stable or else servers which implement the protocol directly would break 09:55:21 i don't see why tiling wms would be a problem, if a client request a fixed size is usually handled as "floating", else it will only see a resize request 09:56:23 hm 09:57:20 at least that is how dwm and wmii work, and afaik most of tiling wms are based on them 09:58:24 The X core protocol hasn't changed in 5 years, and then probably not by much 10:08:23 hm 10:08:33 will still be a very complex task 10:08:36 yes 10:14:59 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:15:10 -!- Halph has joined. 10:15:22 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 10:36:24 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:50:02 * Leonidas stumbled over this code http://okmij.org/ftp/Prolog/QueensProblem.prl 10:50:24 while not that much esoteric, would anyone explain to me how permute works? 10:50:40 * Leonidas is trying to translate that into a more esoteric language 10:54:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:12:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:36:53 so dbus crashed, then gnome-settings-daemon 11:37:02 now everything looks strange even after restarting those 11:37:08 I'll have to restart X 11:37:17 oh and: [251808.083600] gnome-settings-[1841]: segfault at 8 ip 00007fab28a5ad12 sp 00007fff642dfcb0 error 4 in libclipboard.so[7fab28a58000+5000] 11:37:31 how? well I just closed kate.... 11:37:38 not sure what kate has to do with gnome at all 11:37:57 also second time it happened, last time the computer was idle when it happened 11:38:14 and it is not easy to reproduce on demand 11:40:07 ah back 11:42:26 -!- gm|lap has joined. 11:42:34 just a something 11:43:00 next time you see cpressey, can you tell him that it's possible to get >5 keys in bubble escape 2K, and that, if you do that, you can't win? 11:43:09 you will? thanks.\ 11:43:55 gm|lap, haven't seen cpressy for a long time 11:44:04 aww :/ 11:44:22 gm|lap, and what on earth is bubble escape 2K? 11:44:33 AnMaster: a game he wrote for the C64 11:44:37 ah 11:44:46 of course, i don't have a C64 so i just use VICE 11:46:45 * AnMaster tries to imagine a language for which qwerty is actually an efficient layout 11:47:58 meh, I don't know enough about how to make efficient layouts to figure that out 11:47:59 Topline? 11:48:07 ais523, ? 11:48:14 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Topline IIRC 11:48:29 * AnMaster waits for browser to load 11:48:48 even so, though, you'd probably need 6 fingers on each hand 11:48:51 ais523, I meant natural language 11:49:03 and it doesn't really care about the letter keys, just the punctuation marks 11:49:19 AnMaster: then you probably asked in the wrong channel 11:49:36 true 11:49:43 it was just general musing 11:49:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:51:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:51:57 [11:50] hmm, a problem I'm working on at University is basically an esolang issue 11:51:58 [11:50] [CTCP] Sending CTCP-PING request to ais523. 11:52:00 [11:50] OTOH, I'd probably get in trouble if I asked here for the answer 11:52:01 [11:50] so I'll try to solve it first and then tell everyone what it is 11:56:40 meh, I'm bored and slightly mad, I'm going to update Ubuntu to a new distro version unless someone stops me to tell me it's a really bad idea 11:57:07 let's see if it fixes that intermittent problem with sound that I could never reliably reproduce 12:03:22 It's EVIL, remember? 12:03:45 If you install it Satan will jump through your monitor and eat your soul! 12:03:52 fredfredfredfredfesdfresdresdfredfredfredfredfredred 12:03:58 and i'm going to bed, gnight 12:04:11 -!- gm|lap has quit (Quit: ilua). 12:08:08 hmm, too late 12:08:12 this computer's a laptop, though 12:08:16 so technically doesn't have a monitor 12:08:30 also, I don't believe you 12:11:05 It happened to me! 12:11:26 if your soul has been eaten, why are you still talking here? 12:13:02 Why would I need a soul to discuss esolangs? 12:14:11 How absurd. 12:22:46 What on earth is a Kolmogorov machine. 12:23:19 If it does anything less than teleportation I will be sorely disappointed. 12:27:29 Bah, it's a type of computing machine thing. 12:27:43 Does teleportation fall under Turing-completeness? 12:31:19 Echo... 12:31:23 echo... 12:34:17 pong 12:35:14 gnop 12:37:37 � 12:38:01 Can someone else zoom in on that and tell me if it looks like a glider? 12:42:04 Bah, Raymond has commandeered it for himself. 12:42:11 I shall have to use the other phase. 12:54:25 Is a and �b universal? 12:56:22 it's only three pixels with a bit of antialiasing, hard to tell /what/ it looks like 13:08:41 [11:50] so I'll try to solve it first and then tell everyone what it is <-- figured it out yet? 13:08:49 no 13:08:55 in the middle of a distro upgrade atm 13:11:02 which esolang? or is it general computation theory stuff or such? 13:12:12 ¸ <-- isn't it a . ? 13:12:14 hm no 13:12:19 but wth is it 13:12:35 I have no idea. 13:12:37 Bah, Raymond has commandeered it for himself. <-- ? 13:12:49 The image of the glider. 13:13:00 In one of its phases. 13:13:06 But the other can be mine! 13:13:08 Phantom_Hoover, eh, that is in unicode? 13:13:15 I think so. 13:13:26 also, it looks like two pixels with antialias here 13:13:40 just look up the unicode codepoint from that char 13:17:00 It obviously isn't meant to be a glider. 13:17:09 It just looks like one in my font. 13:24:08 AnMaster: if you want a bit of fun, https://review.source.android.com/#patch,sidebyside,14699,1,libc/memset.c 13:24:14 it's the sort of diff I thought you would like 13:24:17 although it requires JS to read 13:24:31 sort-of worrying that that wasn't caught earlier... 13:25:40 ais523, XD 13:25:57 also, says a lot about how memset's used in practice 13:26:15 ais523, android has it's own libc? 13:26:22 seems so 13:26:27 it has its own pretty much everything 13:26:30 except kernel 13:26:39 it's Linux, but it isn't any of the things that are commonly bundled with Linux 13:26:41 ais523, also strange it doesn't use something more efficient, considering embedded system and so on 13:26:50 it's not /that/ embedded 13:27:10 Why are they even doing that as a loop? They should just be calling memset(). 13:27:32 way to miss the point 13:27:35 ais523, XD 13:27:43 ais523, joke or serious? 13:27:50 not clear from context 13:27:56 although I'm guessing serious 13:29:42 it's sort of like the source-code to libgcc 13:29:52 which defines the implementations of, say, multiplication 13:29:55 on systems that don't do it natively 13:30:15 it must be a real pain to try to write an efficient multiplication routine in C without accidentally defining it in terms of itself 13:41:58 They broke memset? 13:42:45 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:46:18 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 13:50:21 well, fixed it, but it was broken for ages 13:50:25 set to 0 rather than to the argument 13:50:34 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:50:36 hmm, apparently IE4 could be scripted using Haskell 13:50:38 my mind is blown 13:52:50 Internet Explorer? 13:53:02 The insanity of it fits. 13:53:54 yes, Internet Explorer 13:54:03 Fun thing: When I typed "internet explorer has" into Google for that, the suggestions was "internet explorer has stopped working". 13:54:10 IE[0-9]+ seems to be an abbreviation reserved for Internet Explorer nowadays 13:54:11 Phantom_Hoover: haha 13:54:15 try the same thing with Bing 13:54:39 Yep. 13:54:44 Oh, the ironing! 13:55:06 what does Bing say? the same? 13:55:15 OK, so can a von Neumann CA be represented as a non-planar graph? 13:55:16 Bing was infamous for its autocompletions on "linux" 13:55:22 which included "linux microsoft" and "linux windows" 13:55:36 the neighborhood graph for von Neumann CAs is planar 13:55:42 They seem to have wisened up. 13:55:48 oerjan: Why? 13:56:15 I can see why it would be for Moore, but not VN. 13:56:19 take a cell, draw a line to all four neighboring cells 13:56:47 Yep. 13:57:06 doing that for all cells gives no crossing lines 13:57:07 ais523: Try putting "Windows has" into Bin for a laugh. 13:57:13