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00:04:49 <Leonidas> oerjan: yeah, i just had some trouble with the prolog implementation.
00:05:14 * Leonidas still fails at translating that to kanren, though.
00:06:25 * oerjan knows naught of kanren
00:10:27 <Leonidas> nobody knows that :) kanren is the obscure brother of prolog, designed for scheme
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02:25:33 <coppro> man, this calculus course is silly
02:25:52 <coppro> they explain integration by substitution so horribly, mainly because they don't want to teach it properly :/
02:28:45 <coppro> "If the question were simply \int x^7 dx, the solution would be \frac{x^8}{8}+C. What if the solution to this problem were y =
02:29:03 <coppro> *y = \frac{a(3x^2-5_^8)}{8}+C
02:29:22 <pikhq> ... That's horrid.
02:29:28 <coppro> (the question is \int 2x(3x^2-5)^7 dx)
02:31:19 <coppro> I have no clue what they expect students to do on a lot of these other questions, like \int \sqrt{2x+1} dx
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08:09:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone who knows anything about the cascade-correlation algorithm, please step forward.
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08:44:18 <pikhq> THERE BE NOT PEEPS HERE
08:44:35 <elliottcable> so, first ever program written in Paws (the language I’ve been pouring the last half-year of my life into). Criticisms and such welcome. http://gist.github.com/415458
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10:36:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, your first name is suspiciously similar to that of alise.
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10:55:52 <ws> hey Phantom_Hoover
10:56:57 <ais523> I took a module that referenced them as part of my degree, didn't really understand it, and passed anyway
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11:02:44 <ws> Phantom_Hoover: ah, it's just 2nd order rather than gradient expansion in backprop, right?
11:03:24 <ais523> me and Keymaker have been the only active ones for ages
11:03:32 <ais523> what adminning do you need doing, or are you just curious?
11:03:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you check whether you have the "cascading" option when you try to protect a page
11:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a way of "salting" pages so they can't be created if you have cascade protection.
11:04:15 <ais523> nope, the version's too old
11:04:19 <ais523> but I can salt pages the old-fashioned way
11:04:26 <ais523> normally I don't bother unless they get spammed a lot, though
11:04:44 <ais523> (I used to be an admin on Wikipedia, too; and I remember when cascading was introduced)
11:05:28 <ais523> not that old, it was upgraded a few years ago
11:05:34 <ais523> it used to use a really really old version of MediaWiki
11:07:48 <ais523> I know of ReCAPTCHA-protected sites which get lots of spam anyway
11:08:12 <ais523> it's not actually broken, just it's cheap enough to employ minimum-wage Chinese workers to break the CAPTCHAs that some spammers actually bother
11:08:46 <Phantom_Hoover> What the hell do they gain from overwriting pages with random gibberish?
11:11:40 <ais523> my guess is that it's a result of spammers scamming each other
11:12:09 <ais523> one group of spammers advertises "I can spam 100000 random wiki pages for $500" or whatever, and people foolish enough to actually want to advertise using spam hire them
11:12:37 <ais523> then the spammers rip them off by spamming places like Esolang which are going to be reverted by attentive admins, and which anyway use <nofollow>
11:12:45 <ais523> wait, it's not a tag, it's an attribute, but you get my point
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11:14:52 <ais523> there was a court case in the US recently where a company sent out loads of spam for advertising
11:15:02 <ais523> someone sued them for spamming, and they actually showed up in court and lost
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13:05:12 <oerjan> a mobius band is non-orientable, so no.
13:07:15 <oerjan> pretty obviously yes, given that is the top picture of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_(mathematics)
13:08:13 <oerjan> the klein bottle itself is 2-dimensional
13:08:50 <oerjan> mobius bands can be _embedded_ in 3d
13:09:19 <oerjan> (that's what you do when you make the obvious cut and twist representation)
13:09:49 <oerjan> my delay in answering you was because i had to remind myself of the difference between immersion and embedding
13:10:30 <oerjan> embedding = homeomorphism with range subset iirc
13:10:57 <oerjan> immersion though is only locally injective (one-to-one)
13:11:45 <Phantom_Hoover> So if it's immersed you put all of the points into a given space?
13:12:04 <oerjan> an embedding is a stricter kind of immersion
13:13:05 <oerjan> an immersion, you map all the points into a space such that _locally_ it's a homeomorphism (continuous bijection whose inverse is also continuous)
13:13:51 <oerjan> the subset of the space you are mapping into
13:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> But surely that would mean that the entire subset of the space would be filled with the thing you're immersing?
13:15:05 <oerjan> actually the wikipedia definitions imply that you use differentiable mappings, not just continuous ones.
13:15:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes, i'm just saying range subset because the range is not necessarily the whole space mapped into
13:16:25 <oerjan> um without unrestricted TeX they couldn't write about large parts of mathematics
13:16:46 <oerjan> like that immersion of the klein bottle is not onto the whole of R^3
13:17:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but with it you are immediately beaten about the head with various weird symbols!
13:18:25 <oerjan> that article's introduction only contains very common math symbols afaict
13:18:50 <oerjan> letters, function arrow, element and subset
13:19:28 <oerjan> in fact you probably don't need TeX for it
13:22:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Although most modern stuff tends to be "Karspinky's surjection" and such
13:22:20 <oerjan> i'm not sure not using latin would help. there's rank and neighborhood :D
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13:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I fear that I am about to fall to the mathematical equivalent of the Curse of TV Tropes.
13:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> 5 hours later I will realise that I have 5 tabs on set theory alone open.
13:25:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: maybe you'll find it encouraging that much of that article _after_ the introduction is mostly incomprehensible to me as well (although i may know some of the words)
13:27:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, I just realised that the neural network algorithm I've been toying with is nearly 20 years old...
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13:31:04 <oerjan> on the bright side, it has not achieved sentience yet, or so we think
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16:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I'll have to write my own neural network framework...
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16:48:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, the annotation that is
16:50:16 * oerjan preferred the comic itself
16:50:27 <oerjan> the annotation was rather short
16:50:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, but that idea in it :D
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16:51:05 <pikhq> oerjan: IS TOO EARLY
16:51:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, here, take this allen key, should fit that mutter
16:51:24 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: of course
16:51:59 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: me and AnMaster talked about it so much last year we had to stop. or something.
16:52:27 * oerjan has read some pratchett and is pretty sure AnMaster has read more
16:52:48 * AnMaster wonders if oerjan reads shlock
16:52:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what? Disrworld?
16:53:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, IWC archive is bloody huge too
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16:54:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I jumped into the middle of shlock and then read forward from there (about a year's worth of comics iirc), then later I read the first few years
16:54:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh and darthanddroids of course.
16:54:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well same author as iwc so..
16:54:54 <oerjan> clearly what you need is http://www.archivebinge.net/comics.php
16:55:14 * oerjan hasn't used it himself
16:55:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, huh? what is the point of it?
16:55:30 <oerjan> er http://www.archivebinge.net/
16:55:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: to get an archive scheduled automatically
16:56:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, eh. you mean like giving you a few old comics / day from the archive or such?
16:56:53 <Deewiant> CCBI 2.1 is out. Nothing too special: fingerprints, fixes, optimizations.
16:56:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn you people, I had just gotten some CLOS docs up and was starting to do something.
16:57:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you still read mezacottta (sp?)
16:57:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well i probably wouldn't know about it if it wasn't his
16:57:32 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: My Befunge-98 interpreter.
16:57:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I once challenged someone to read every single Mezzacotta strip...
16:57:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: sure, although mostly because i use it as my portal to all of DMM's emporium
16:58:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you don't say
17:01:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, markov chain iirc
17:01:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: i've stopped voting for other mezzacotta comics than the daily one, though. since almost none get into the hall of fame these days anyway.
17:02:12 <oerjan> minorly self-fulfilling prophecy, naturally
17:02:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hahahah.
17:02:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there was an April Fools day they did that, but it was temporary
17:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> They also didn't believe me when I told them the number of comics...
17:05:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, so which web comics do you read?
17:06:42 <oerjan> Freefall, XKCD, Girl Genius + Myth Adventures + Phil & Dixie (by Foglio), everything DMM related
17:07:27 <AnMaster> hm looked at Girl Genius. Steam punk iirc. Not my kind of thing really
17:08:19 <AnMaster> iwc, xkcd, darth and droids, schlock
17:08:41 <AnMaster> used to read uf before, and used to read some other dmm stuff. Tried freefall for a bit, but it was tooooooo sloooooow moving
17:09:10 <pikhq> User Friendly is pretty solidly meh.
17:09:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yeah but when you done that it is just too slow
17:09:24 <pikhq> I'm quite fond of Freefall.
17:09:34 <pikhq> Though it *is* a bit slow.
17:09:39 <Phantom_Hoover> But then you hit the end of the archives and it takes 3 months per minute of story.
17:09:39 <AnMaster> so it may be a good idea to split it into bi-yearly archive binges
17:09:53 <AnMaster> that may it might be enjoyable
17:10:06 <Phantom_Hoover> <Guy who writes it> must have a long-reaching story plan...
17:10:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, or not, and thus dragging out every minute of it
17:10:37 <AnMaster> because he/she can't think of something past a certain point
17:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover> But I think he must have a plan, because stuff keeps going off, then coming back months later.
17:12:21 <AnMaster> also iirc that girls genius, apart from the steampunkness (and airships, true, but I much prefer heavier-than-air aircrafts, love flightsim of jet aircrafts, yay for transatlantic instrument navigation!), it seemed to be almost as slow as that freefall
17:13:04 <ws> Phantom_Hoover: what sort of data you're working on?
17:13:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: well there is _one_ heavier-than-air aircraft in girl genius (gil's invention)
17:13:27 <ws> Phantom_Hoover: you mentioned neural nets earlier
17:13:37 <oerjan> it's not prominent though
17:13:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, I didn't archive binge it, so... Gave up long before that
17:14:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: to be honest i've founded the latest storyline a bit technobabbly
17:14:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, also considering the context I doubt it is anything like a jet aircraft. I would guess it is probably flying by beating wings?
17:14:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's a double decker iirc, like an earlier "normal" aircraft
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17:15:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, unrealistic for heavy stuff. And slow. Sure it has been done in in real life as an experiment. Carbon fibre and other very very light materials only
17:15:25 <AnMaster> it kind of worked, but extremely hard to control
17:15:30 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um not sure of terminology
17:15:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, okay those are just boring
17:15:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's the fastest plane in that world though, presumably :D
17:17:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, that isn't the point. I don't go for speed in my aircraft interest. I go for either manoeuvrability (yay, English Electric Lightning or the Harrier!) or heavy and interesting airliners. Mostly
17:17:52 <AnMaster> sure I fly a lot out of interest, but the fastest plane in the world (SR-71) is almost as boring as a biplan
17:18:52 <AnMaster> I can't locate where that would fit
17:18:59 <oerjan> if i can be ocd about correcting it you can be ocd about finding out where ;D
17:19:23 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
17:19:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, thanks for considering me a friend :(
17:20:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not currently no
17:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I *wanted* to be an aviation nerd, but I was foiled by various factors.
17:20:55 <AnMaster> I shave every month or so. When the hair gets in the way of eating
17:21:02 <AnMaster> too much work doing it more often
17:21:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: girl genius does have giant robots^H^H^H^H^H^Hmecha^H^H^H^H^Hclanks, though
17:21:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, neardness comes naturally.
17:21:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, mecha? How very boring
17:22:15 <AnMaster> giant robots, mecha or not, are fairly boring. Now it they were made out of lego that might no longer apply
17:23:27 * oerjan gives up trying to please AnMaster
17:24:59 <oerjan> it does seem to have a shortage of those
17:26:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, depends on if they actually worked (mechanical strength need not apply). Imagine a mecha built in lego technic. That would be fairly interesting
17:26:22 <AnMaster> if you could look at the assembly instructions that is
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17:26:44 * AnMaster has a lot of lego technic and such
17:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> With an RCX as a control unit, it could get interesting.
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18:29:27 <ws> yeah, only 5 minutes though
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18:34:04 <Phantom_Hoover> The thing you asked about was an idea for a language in which you specify a fitness metric and the compiler creates a neural network acording to it.
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19:46:33 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> With an RCX as a control unit, it could get interesting. <--- yeah, 3 motors
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21:26:28 <elliottcable> Phantom_Hoover: distributed applications, web applications, client/server stuff
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21:26:42 <elliottcable> Phantom_Hoover: positioned to replace Ruby/JavaScript or Python/JavaScript
21:34:12 <elliottcable> though somebody in the channel created another clone of brainfuck called bewbs
21:35:03 <Phantom_Hoover> My idea is to have a language that is a specification for a neural network.
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21:59:09 <Sgeo> I'd love Android more if erm, I think I should blame the phone, not the software
21:59:15 <Sgeo> Although HTC_IME lags
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22:21:28 <AnMaster> conclusion: bottom up design for lego is not a good idea
22:21:45 <AnMaster> I never been good at top down design though
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22:40:09 <Portponky> I made a crappy BF style game with challenges and crap
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23:03:12 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust that is
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23:07:27 <Portponky> its got some challenges for programs to write which it tests. its pretty much BF but with easier i/o
23:07:47 <Portponky> in that , and . just put numbers to/from the tape
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23:16:42 <Zuu> Whoah! i think my poopish language is ready for prime time :D ... except it only has a win32 interpreter so far, but a linux version is on the way
23:17:43 <Zuu> In case anyone should be interrested in my quite different language: http://zuu.dk/regexpl.php
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23:21:58 <AnMaster> Portponky, makes char IO harder
23:22:30 <AnMaster> Zuu, tell me when there is a linux version
23:23:02 <Zuu> Im sure it will execute on wine with no trouble.
23:23:46 <Zuu> there might be a linux version tomorrow, or maybe first in a month
23:24:06 <Zuu> AnMaster: yes, it should work on 64 wine too
23:24:22 <Zuu> Nitghties :)
23:25:03 <Zuu> I havent tested it on either though, but i see no reason why it wouldnt run.
23:25:57 <Zuu> The only reason i havent compiled it for linux yet, is because of some pcre foop :)
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