00:00:02 <alise> tvim; like gvim but it wasn't always graphical
00:00:15 <Rugxulo> or Dirty Harry will bust down your door and point his magnum at your puny face!
00:01:30 <Rugxulo> (BTW, I know nobody cares, esp. AnMaster, but I did eek out a Pascal Befunge-93 interpreter recently)
00:02:42 <Rugxulo> and I'll humbly admit I don't even know what that means
00:03:10 <Sgeo_> <alise> Sgeo's shitty </alise>
00:03:27 <Rugxulo> or jitty ... ha ha ha, oh wait ........
00:03:35 * Sgeo_ can't actually figure out what the next bit would be
00:03:42 <Sgeo_> Rugxulo, I don't get it
00:04:22 * Rugxulo wishes he were funny, but alas ...
00:04:59 <alise> http://qaa.ath.cx/addition.png [[Addition]]
00:05:53 <Sgeo_> Is there a particular reason you needed to take a screenshot?
00:05:57 <alise> "Not only did that not help me but now I forgot how to perform addition altogether." --reddit
00:05:59 <alise> Sgeo_: I didn't take it.
00:06:30 <oklopol> i need to take a jit and go to sleep
00:06:43 <Rugxulo> no worse than Wikipedia's link to "motherf*cker" from the AC Transit bus fight meme
00:06:46 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/c8vyo/for_the_longest_time_i_couldnt_wrap_my_head/
00:06:53 <alise> Rugxulo: Motherfucker.
00:06:59 <Rugxulo> (gotta love dem bastards, citation required!)
00:07:09 <alise> No asterisk in sight...
00:08:04 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Beard_Man
00:08:21 <Rugxulo> "In the video, Bruso is seen wearing a light blue T-shirt that reads "I AM a Motherfucker" on the back."
00:08:37 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherfucker
00:08:51 <Rugxulo> "This article needs additional citations for verification."
00:09:05 <Rugxulo> "Motherfucker (euphemized as mf) is a vulgarism which, in its most literal use, refers to one who participates in sexual intercourse with someone's mother."
00:09:13 <Rugxulo> ah, Wikipedia, educating the children, good for them
00:09:16 <alise> QUITE SO GOOD CHAP
00:09:35 <Rugxulo> and linked from the AC Transit bus fight, how elucidating!
00:10:02 <oklopol> alise: why did you link that
00:10:23 <Rugxulo> "The term gained traction during World War II, originally amongst African American GIs, " ... uh, how encyclopedic of them (NOT!)
00:10:41 <oklopol> i didn't read the comments
00:11:04 <Sgeo_> alise, I trolled a subreddit
00:11:16 <alise> Sgeo_: that's nice.
00:11:18 <alise> cheater99: in what sense
00:11:19 <cheater99> why does bcrypt only have a cost param for gensalt
00:11:23 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/iamaf/comments/c8w9v/iamna_person_trolling_riamaf_with_this_post/
00:11:28 <alise> cheater99: dunno, cuz that's how it works
00:11:32 <alise> use gensalt it will make you happy
00:11:34 <alise> happy like a walrus
00:14:25 <alise> cheater99: just think about the gzzzzzzop
00:15:49 * cheater99 shows up in alise's room with an 'I <3 RP' tshirt on. and nothing else.
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00:15:56 <Rugxulo> BTW, alise, did you hear that Win 3.0 turned 20?
00:16:09 <alise> cheater99: what does RP expand to here exactly :|
00:16:13 <alise> Rugxulo: no, but i figure that is how time works
00:16:20 <cheater99> alise: what ever we want to, baby.
00:16:25 <Rugxulo> oh, and eComStation 2.0 was finally released
00:16:47 <Rugxulo> coincidence? I think not! ;-)
00:16:55 <alise> cheater99: i'm scared
00:17:05 <alise> cheater99: i think i'll choose it to stand for received pronunciation
00:24:19 * Sgeo_ wants to make an API for multi-platform 3d environment bots
00:24:29 <Sgeo_> A lowest common denominator sort of thing
00:24:48 <cheater99> alise: that's what u get 4 trollering me
00:25:01 <alise> cheater99: how did i torlleringate you
00:26:05 <alise> on rms: "His emacs had a image background gregori rasputin. After any attempt to look at his screen he'd shut the lid and hiss. Call me crazy but his beard would move on its own sometimes too."
00:27:01 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: tired).
00:27:42 <alise> "You, my friend, are unique and special. Like a working instance of the HURD kernel."
00:28:59 * Sgeo_ has something to say on this topic, but my computer's being a prick
00:29:41 <Sgeo_> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/4361/99561.aspx#99561
00:30:56 <alise> Not that topic /again/
00:34:45 <Sgeo_> alise, you asked for it by mentioning RMS
00:42:40 <Zuu> oklopol: thue?
00:42:56 <Zuu> Who's thue?
00:46:31 <alise> Thue is a language.
00:46:41 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue
00:46:48 <alise> One of the most surprising instances of Turing-completeness.
00:51:01 <Zuu> Interresting
00:52:40 <Zuu> oklopol: i didnt know of that language, no :P
00:53:58 <alise> 09:05:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Why in the name of goat did we make the wiki public domain?
00:54:03 <alise> Graue is opinionated -- I agree with him
00:54:08 <alise> 09:07:50 <Phantom_Hoover> No GPLed code. On a *software* wiki.
00:54:10 <alise> That's why we use links.
00:54:18 <alise> Never given us problems; deal.
00:55:23 * Sgeo_ gives alise a problem
00:55:41 <alise> I reject your problem and substitute my own, much more easily-rectified problem.
00:58:04 * Zuu steals the problems and nukes it in the micorwave oven
00:59:04 * Zuu nukes his spelling in the microwave oven too
01:02:10 <cheater99> bcrypt's hasher DOES have a parameter for the amount of iterations. it's passed as part of the salt string.
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01:04:07 <alise> i think it affects the salt generation too though
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01:06:12 <Ilari> Nice, putting iteration count in salt, enabling variable verification complexity.
01:06:29 <Sgeo_> I think I want to wear a helmet for the rest of my life
01:06:35 <alise> Oh, look, he's still here.
01:49:25 <uorygl> ¡Ay! It looks like there are no good web sites out there for learning Finnish.
01:58:44 <alise> 13:26:08 <elliottcable> Phantom_Hoover: hah
01:58:45 <alise> 13:26:28 <elliottcable> Phantom_Hoover: distributed applications, web applications, client/server stuff
01:58:45 <alise> 13:26:42 <elliottcable> Phantom_Hoover: positioned to replace Ruby/JavaScript or Python/JavaScript
01:58:45 <alise> 13:30:04 <Phantom_Hoover> So it's not esoteric?
01:58:48 <alise> Pre-fuckin'-cisely.
01:59:00 <alise> 13:33:59 <elliottcable> people’ve called it esoteric
01:59:01 <alise> People are stupid.
01:59:08 <alise> I love slow logreading.
02:02:20 -!- alise has left (?).
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02:09:54 <alise> International Standard.
02:10:41 <alise> So anyway, Ripple (http://ripple.sourceforge.net/) is awesome (https://ripplepay.com/ but this is stalled iirc)
02:28:52 <Sgeo_> Decentralization makes me horny, but that doesn't mean everything can be decentralized
02:32:16 * pikhq decentralises Sgeo
02:36:57 <alise> Considering Ripple is an actually-tried-in-practice, feasible solution that would solve an awful lot of economic problems...
02:37:03 <alise> It's not decentralisation for decentralisation's sake.
02:47:52 <alise> A very small scale, but still.
02:47:59 <alise> It isn't something with a huge inherent flaw that makes it impossible.
02:53:42 <Sgeo_> We don't know how well it will scale
02:55:01 <alise> Fearmongering is pointless and for weak minds; you should know better than that. Find problems in the system instead of instinctively reacting like that to ideas you haven't been exposed to.
02:55:08 <alise> Or the status quo really will control our thoughts...
02:55:32 <Sgeo_> I'm just saying it needs to be tested on a larger scale.
02:55:58 <alise> Unlikely; the economic status of the world means that no real change is possible.
03:04:25 <pikhq> alise: Not impossible. Just sure to be incredibly traumatic when it happens.
03:04:49 <pikhq> (somewhere along the lines of "oh fuck everything broke")
03:04:59 <alise> I hope to not see that.
03:05:05 <alise> This broken system beats its chaotic destruction.
03:05:12 <alise> I can has gradual anarchy?
03:05:24 <pikhq> I'd rather not see the approximate equivalent of the fall of Rome.
03:11:13 <SgeoN1> Suppose somehow, by some strange fortune, there are two people who have no links between them
03:14:07 <alise> That doesn't happen. The world doesn't work like that.
03:14:37 <Gregor> One of these people lives in Alpha Centauri.
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03:29:03 <zzo38> Now the colon before the message is mix-up? However, it is still gray, rather than blue as the message text is supposed to be blue
03:30:40 <zzo38> Maybe something to do with out PuTTY works
03:30:48 <SgeoN1> You're not just typing spaces?
03:31:09 <zzo38> I was, but Gregor is different
03:32:12 <SgeoN1> Who here isn't different?
03:33:11 <SgeoN1> Alise, it's happened before.
03:33:47 <SgeoN1> Unless you count dead people in the links, I guess
03:34:48 <Gregor> I did a Unicode zero-width space :P
03:35:46 <alise> Sgeo_: It hasn't "happened before". Under a Ripple system, the probability that two people are connected in a sufficiently large economy is... say... 1.
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03:44:53 <SgeoN1> How about before, say, Columbus?
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03:46:59 <alise> SgeoN1: they didn't have technoeconomies.
03:47:22 <alise> And Columbus was lame.
03:47:49 <SgeoN1> Confused and stubborn, yes. Lame?
03:53:02 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:56:30 <alise> "HEY GUYZ, AMERICA! Ignore the Leif Ericson behind the curtain."
04:01:56 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:05:49 <SgeoN1> Hmm, I did't know about him
04:07:46 <alise> Get yourself some edumacation, sir.
04:12:24 <alise> Good night, good sirs, good madams, not that we have any -- good night.
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04:40:23 <Rugxulo> hmmm, CCBI updated yesterday
04:46:32 <zzo38> Just a few things, in general.
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05:46:23 <oerjan> what is that about people shouting my nick lately
05:47:09 <oerjan> (or approximations to it)
05:47:20 <Rugxulo> yeah, that was my "joke", heh
05:48:23 <oerjan> if you say so, Ru9xu1ø
05:49:17 <Rugxulo> hmmm, even latest CCBI seems slow on my lame benchmark
05:49:27 <Rugxulo> oh well, not important (obviously)
05:51:32 <oerjan> the lame are usually slow
05:52:12 <Rugxulo> or this P4 (better scapegoat)
05:52:30 <Sgeo_> TV Tropes just LIED to me
05:52:50 <Sgeo_> Actually, it was referring to XKCD
05:52:54 <Sgeo_> Which is also lying
05:52:58 <Sgeo_> http://xkcd.com/180/
05:53:16 <oerjan> Rugxulo: DON'T GO THERE IT'S A TRAP
05:56:27 <Sgeo_> Dying in Canada does not kill you IRL
05:56:42 * Sgeo_ waits for someone to comment
05:57:02 * Rugxulo expects someone to say, "living in Canada is as good as death"
05:57:31 <Sgeo_> By Canada, I of course mean IRCNomic
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06:00:03 <Sgeo_> Ironically, Canada itself has died.
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06:22:17 <Rugxulo> ironically, conversion in this channel has died
06:30:35 <zzo38> This game in demo mode it just keep moving the same card back and forth over and over again all the time
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09:19:41 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> (BTW, I know nobody cares, esp. AnMaster, but I did eek out a Pascal Befunge-93 interpreter recently) <-- nice!
09:20:46 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, I fail to see how "<Sgeo_> Does it do PSOX?" makes sense. Isn't it a separate program from the interpreter normally?
09:21:12 <AnMaster> which in theory can be used by any language
09:21:48 <Sgeo_> Who said I wanted it to make sense, as opposed to making a joke? But in theory, languages can include features that make working with PSOX easier
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09:22:26 <Sgeo_> Also, there's no reason the interpreter couldn't include its own PSOX implementation for some reason
09:22:40 <Sgeo_> Although that would be a bit pointless and annoying
09:22:46 * Sgeo_ should be sleeping
09:23:09 <Sgeo_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX and http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk
09:23:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, a program that you connect stdin/stdout of a bf program to. Then you can use some sort of escape seqs to do file IO with it and such
09:23:28 <Sgeo_> "Currently, only domains 0-2 work, but custom domains are function
09:23:58 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, doesn't have to be bf. Just has to have byte stdio, like you just said
09:24:13 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, I lost the password for Sgeo
09:24:30 <Sgeo_> I was also on Freenode as Sgep for a time, for the same reason
09:24:34 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think so
09:24:45 <Sgeo_> If I did, I'd have emailed myself a reset thingy
09:24:52 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, quite a few languages can't easily do that.
09:25:00 <AnMaster> isn't TAXI for example quite limited?
09:25:12 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, iirc, Taxi can actually do it, with a bit of pain
09:25:17 <Sgeo_> Um, actually, hold on
09:25:26 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, I seem to remember there was some issue with zero byte in it
09:25:37 <Sgeo_> http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/spec/psox-utils.txt
09:26:02 <Sgeo_> 0x04 0x13 loopback, which would allow a TAXI program to add a newline to what it's receiving, since it needs to receive in lines
09:26:14 <Sgeo_> That's the reason I added that function, actually
09:26:50 <Sgeo_> Any hypothetical PSOX2 would use just simple stuff or less
09:27:03 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you could use protocol modules
09:27:24 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, that is, different ways to encode for different languages
09:27:44 <Sgeo_> THe language itself should specify the encoding somehow, I think
09:27:58 <AnMaster> so you can fit different frontends to PSOX basically
09:28:27 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, so all languages should have to mention PSOX in their specs?
09:28:28 <Sgeo_> I want the language requesting to specify customizable frontend, I think
09:28:41 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, nono, the program written in the language
09:28:46 <Sgeo_> I was being a bit lazy in my typing
09:36:43 <Sgeo_> WHY am I still awake?
09:37:16 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, because you aren't asleep?
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10:10:28 <Sgeo_> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/sgeo.wav
10:10:38 <Sgeo_> I should be sleeping 5 hours ago
10:10:51 <Sgeo_> I _had_ the computer closed too!
10:11:04 <Sgeo_> But no, I had to check Agora to see if I had any responses
10:11:15 <Sgeo_> Back to pretending to be asleep. Night all
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12:51:05 <oklopol> "<Zuu> Who's thue?" <<< thue was a famous mathematician who did among other things all kinds of fun computability stuff, thue is named after his thue systems which are models of computation almost identical to the language
12:51:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Also gave me a useful way to answer pointless surveys.
12:52:27 <oklopol> oh right also did some of the first cool combinatorics on words stuff
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12:53:31 <oklopol> the thue-morse word was invented for the purpose of not having repetitions of length over 2
12:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I found out about it when reading a thing on whether it was possible to play an unending game of chess.
12:55:17 <oklopol> i guess he probably doesn't know what the word is
12:55:40 <oklopol> so i'm not really educating him, but i'm using it as an excuse to be able to say random facts
12:56:24 <oklopol> right unending chess, sort of a trivial corollary
12:56:39 <oklopol> well maybe not entirely trivial because you have to find out what to repeat
12:56:55 <oklopol> although i suppose that takes like 3 moves from the initial position
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14:01:48 * AnMaster tries to figure out how long 306 MB would take at an average transfer speed of 75kB/s
14:03:29 -!- kar8nga has joined.
14:04:49 <AnMaster> a bit more than ETA reported by rsync
14:05:13 <AnMaster> (yes I did compensate for what it reported as already transferred)
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14:18:57 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie oerjan lament! <-- i take it you want cheater99 banned?
14:21:07 <oerjan> you'd have to ask Phantom_Hoover about that
14:22:38 <oklopol> oerjan: maybe you should ban him anyway, because i want to see your powers in action
14:23:31 <oerjan> oklopol: i already banned fax a few weeks ago
14:24:08 <oklopol> what day was it i wanna read the log
14:25:31 <oerjan> oklopol: she used the soupdragon nick then
14:29:11 -!- alise has joined.
14:30:57 <alise> Yes. Anyway I have some inexplicable urge to write an ircd.
14:31:44 <alise> One day I decided to see how people would treat me differently on IRC if they thought I had ovaries. But I don't go to other channels much and nobody really sexist enters here.
14:32:12 <alise> Then I decided to keep it to crush English's sexist pronoun system; this nickname's gender is male, but with all pronouns augmented to be the female ones (while my gender is male)
14:32:23 <alise> I do get the impression of friendlier, quicker service when I go to other channels though... and when some trolls came in here they propositioned me for sex
14:32:29 <AnMaster> <alise> Yes. Anyway I have some inexplicable urge to write an ircd. <-- in which language
14:32:48 <alise> oklopol doesn't, and oerjan doesn't when he remembers.
14:33:02 <alise> And note that people don't use pronouns so much on IRC since there are so many people.
14:33:10 <alise> Which is why you have not "notied" (*noticed) it.
14:33:33 <alise> AnMaster: That's the frightening thing. Take a guess.
14:33:48 <alise> That's not frightening for me.
14:34:06 <alise> That's not frightening for me.
14:34:26 <oklopol> women are stupider than men
14:34:43 <oerjan> oklopol: that's what they want you to think
14:34:44 <alise> oklopol: Well, you don't show it much.
14:34:54 <alise> oklopol: and anyway you've never said anything as strong a statement as that before :P
14:35:02 <alise> oklopol: I think you just adopt controversial opinions because they're controversial
14:35:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I asked AnMaster to guess!
14:35:31 <oerjan> people who just adopt controversial opinions because they're controversial should be shot
14:35:51 <alise> AnMaster: It's frightening for me.
14:36:11 <alise> I like QBASIC; why would that be frightening for me?
14:36:14 <alise> Come on, think a little bit.
14:36:18 <alise> What's a language I really hate?
14:36:25 <alise> No, Erlang is fine.
14:36:30 <alise> What's a language I really DETEST?
14:36:38 <alise> (Not you, Phanty.)
14:36:42 <oerjan> alise: i already _said_ java
14:36:48 <alise> AnMaster: I don't detest ook, there's not enough language to detest
14:36:57 <alise> oerjan: java is supremely shittily mediocre, not detestable
14:37:00 <alise> php isn't even a language
14:37:03 <alise> For fuck's sake you retards
14:37:46 <AnMaster> alise, so if you detest C, how do you feel about C++ then
14:37:51 <alise> AnMaster: well the actual good C like the plan 9 folks do is alright
14:37:58 <alise> but I hate typical C-on-Unix bullcrap
14:38:07 <alise> C++ is just don't go there
14:38:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A few words, manual memory management is humanly impossible and a complete waste of time. If you think you can do it, wrong! You made a mistake. All this is unnecessary and we had machines that did GC on everything in the 80s, so isn't this fun?
14:38:49 <oklopol> manual memory management is bullshit
14:38:57 <alise> Also, the C standard library interestingly lacks a single function that operates on a real string data structure.
14:39:07 <Phantom_Hoover> C is pointless unless you're writing madly low-level stuff.
14:39:09 <alise> Instead it gives you a bunch of badly-named memory management functions that behave weirdly on \0 characters.
14:39:11 <oklopol> the C standard library is retarded
14:39:24 <alise> I love GObject, it's ludicrously insane
14:39:24 <oklopol> gnome is a fucking shithole
14:39:27 <AnMaster> alise, I think manual memory management is quite feasible for some tasks
14:39:34 <alise> they're writing more gnome stuff in vala nowadays
14:39:40 <alise> also oklopol is just parroting opinions but more strongly now
14:39:48 <alise> AnMaster: yeah maybe embedded programming.
14:39:49 <oklopol> oklopol is a fucking asshole
14:39:55 <alise> oklopol sucks dick
14:40:09 <AnMaster> alise, and you need something for internal data structures of a GC
14:40:27 <alise> that's where oklopol stops at, him sucking dick
14:40:31 <AnMaster> alise, "it's GCs all the way down" yeah right
14:40:38 <oklopol> oklopol is a gay homosexual
14:40:41 <alise> C GCs are inherently conservative... which is lame
14:40:43 <oklopol> who sucks dick for a living
14:40:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Yo dawg I heard you like GCs so we GCed your GC so you can GC while you GC
14:40:50 <oklopol> because he'd die without gay sex
14:40:51 <alise> and then walks home
14:41:19 <AnMaster> <alise> Also, the C standard library interestingly lacks a single function that operates on a real string data structure. <-- agreed. C strings are irritating
14:41:23 <alise> "Yo dawg I herd you like X so we put an X in your Y so you can X while you Y" has mutated by replacing Y with X.
14:41:26 <alise> It's been... specialised.
14:41:27 <AnMaster> but they made kind of sense back when C was made
14:41:32 <AnMaster> alise, memory wasn't cheap back then
14:41:38 <cheater99> i joked they're using technobabble and he made me his personal enemy #1
14:41:42 <alise> AnMaster: pascal existed... even pascal strings are better
14:41:47 <alise> cheater99: Was it fax, perchance?
14:41:52 <alise> Everyone is fax's personal enemy #1.
14:41:53 <AnMaster> alise, well, the non-fixed length ones are
14:41:59 <AnMaster> alise, the fixed length ones are horrible
14:42:17 <alise> oklopol: only 'cuz you haven't called her a girl yet
14:42:18 <AnMaster> alise, and iirc the fixed length was all that existed back then
14:42:21 <alise> or not responded to her immediately
14:42:32 <alise> maybe she just wants to have sex with you then
14:42:40 <oklopol> i started talking to her in pm a lot when i heard she was a girl
14:42:54 <alise> she doesn't consider herself a girl :P
14:43:05 <cheater99> ok now he doesn't hate me that much anymore
14:43:10 <alise> or at least when I said to AnMaster that she was m->f transgender which is what augur told me, she freaked
14:43:13 <alise> and yelled at me for 50 years
14:43:16 <alise> AnMaster: Anyway so I'm just going to write it as event-ish based code
14:43:20 <oklopol> what do i care, i enjoy conversations more if the other dude has a vagina.
14:43:27 <alise> AnMaster: and see if I can avoid serious string handling outside of the parser
14:43:29 <alise> oklopol: she doesn't
14:43:34 <alise> at least I'm 99% sure she hasn't had a sex change
14:43:53 <alise> for one, you need to have a psychological evaluation to make sure you are sane
14:44:08 <alise> and (1) she is not sane (2) apparently she'd been to see psychologists before and just gave up on it
14:44:13 <oklopol> so what, she doesn't think she's a girl, and she has a dick
14:44:22 <alise> well clearly she thinks she's female in some sense
14:44:25 <AnMaster> 232.78M 76% 60.31kB/s 0:21:01 83.77kB/s 0:35:09 <-- sigh
14:44:28 <alise> since she prefers the pronoun she... I think
14:44:42 <alise> oklopol: it's a crazy ungendered person with a dick
14:44:53 <AnMaster> why does it have two times there
14:44:57 <alise> AnMaster: hmm, come to think of it, ircds don't really handle strings at all
14:45:11 <oklopol> alise: well that's still closer to person with vagina than guy
14:45:23 <AnMaster> alise, they need to parse the message to figure out if it is a command, and such. Like JOIN or PRIVMSG
14:45:43 <AnMaster> alise, and for PRIVMSG they have to figure out where to send it
14:45:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Come to think of it, Lisp was around when C was invented.
14:45:51 <AnMaster> for other commands they need to parse the parameters too
14:46:12 <alise> AnMaster: yes, but beyond parsing
14:46:19 <alise> which can all be done in one go really, since most commands don't have in-parameter syntaxes
14:46:20 <AnMaster> alise, oh and they need to construct a large number of strings to send to clients. like :alise!~alise@91.105.86.86 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but beyond parsing
14:46:30 <alise> they don't have to construct them necessarily
14:46:34 <alise> they can send them to the socket as they go
14:46:51 <alise> oklopol: well she used to identify as male, definitely
14:46:58 <alise> oklopol: so it's male->who knows? and they have a dick
14:47:04 <AnMaster> alise, still some messages like PING/PONG, various stuff like gline reasons. Quit reasons.
14:47:30 <AnMaster> alise, also /map. (probably disabled for non-opers on here)
14:47:38 <alise> what does that do?
14:47:43 <AnMaster> alise, well it shows a map of the spanning tree from the server you are on
14:48:01 <alise> That sounds lovely^Whorrible.
14:48:17 <alise> Although I guess you'll hate this thing anyway since I don't plan to support any existing irc services
14:48:24 <AnMaster> alise, quite useful for opers. For non-opers either it shows nothing or it is disabled
14:48:24 <oklopol> alise: she's also insane, i think that's even better than having a vagina
14:48:32 <AnMaster> alise, no server linking? well sane move
14:48:40 <AnMaster> server linking makes thing very complex
14:48:40 <cheater99> everyone started calling him/her/it arbitrary pronouns
14:48:42 <alise> AnMaster: not the same thing
14:48:48 <oklopol> if a guy was totally nuts i could probably have sex with him
14:48:51 <alise> AnMaster: you can link servers without supporting the special oper commands
14:48:54 <alise> that the services use
14:48:59 <cheater99> and then it got so big the ops got pissed off
14:49:04 <cheater99> and started banning anyone who did that lol
14:49:07 <oklopol> and if a girl was really smart i'd be like put ur clothes on
14:49:30 <AnMaster> alise, hm? On most ircds they use standard ones but have some extra permissions basically
14:49:39 <AnMaster> perhaps one or two special ones for services
14:49:46 * AnMaster checks inspircd server protocol docs
14:49:51 <alise> then why do ircds like ngircd say they need to add suppo for dervices to work
14:49:57 <alise> and why do services have their own modules, usually, in ircds
14:50:41 <AnMaster> alise, also server<->server protocols for ircds are not standard. Well there exist a few that are used by several
14:50:55 <AnMaster> so that explains "<alise> and why do services have their own modules, usually, in ircds"
14:51:09 <alise> but isn't server linking... useful? :-)
14:51:12 <AnMaster> alise, then there is the thing about /whois
14:51:18 <AnMaster> * [alise] is logged in as alise
14:51:18 <alise> I can't imagine freenode running on one network -- but then I guess I won't be runnning Freenode any time soon
14:51:31 <AnMaster> alise, a few small things like that need some sort of support from the ircd side
14:51:33 <alise> AnMaster: well, see, I'm going to do services by just having it be a plugin-type dealie
14:51:38 <alise> so that it can easily hook into /whois and the like
14:51:56 <AnMaster> alise, well inspircd uses an m_services.so
14:52:14 <alise> I mean there will be no separate services package or server.
14:52:19 <alise> It'll just be a plugin for this one ircd.
14:52:29 <AnMaster> alise, decentralised services?
14:52:40 <alise> AnMaster: I cannot imagine that working, at all :P
14:52:44 <AnMaster> alise, you realise that would be quite a pain to handle if servers splits.
14:53:10 <AnMaster> alise, I can imagine it working. It is just that it would be a PITA and conflict resolution would be quite insane
14:53:12 <alise> it can't link servers, remember?
14:53:19 <alise> or do you mean decentralised services
14:53:55 <alise> Well, yeah, that's even what you said.
14:54:06 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, no server linking? well sane move
14:54:06 <alise> <AnMaster> server linking makes thing very complex
14:54:19 <alise> I'm sure you can have a single ircd serving at least 7,000 online peeps if it's written well enough.
14:54:27 <AnMaster> but then "<alise> but isn't server linking... useful? :-)" made me think you decided to do it anyway
14:54:33 <alise> I mean, it's not like any of this is computationally intensive, and the c10k problem is well-researched.
14:54:41 <AnMaster> alise, thing is, avoiding race conditions in server protocol is like a black art
14:54:51 <alise> Yeah; I don't go for black art.
14:55:01 <alise> If I can't explain every line exactly I get upset and try and rewrite it.
14:55:12 <AnMaster> alise, for example you need two timestamps for topic for conflict resolution to work properly after a netsplit
14:55:22 <AnMaster> one for channel created and one for topic last changed
14:55:27 <alise> Why don't we just assume netsplits NEVER HAPPEN?! Yay!!!!
14:55:40 <AnMaster> alise, and then it goes like: oldest channel created wins. If a tie, then newest topic change wins
14:56:02 <AnMaster> alise, because they always happen. Network issues and so on.
14:56:26 <alise> Assume a perfectly spherical cow, and a perfectly reliable network.
14:57:46 <alise> So how do "most" event-based ircds do thangs? I'm just going to do it the obvious way -- you can set up callbacks on certain events/messages coming in from certain users, etc., in the server, and the handlers queue() up messages to be sent after they exit
14:58:03 <AnMaster> a quick look at http://wiki.inspircd.org/InspIRCd_Spanning_Tree_1.2/Commands indicates there are a few service specific messages. Only a few are actually needed. SVSNICK is to handle nick already registered-auto rename
14:58:49 <AnMaster> oh and svsmode (for some services at least)
14:58:50 <alise> I'm considering making my "services" actually just commands
14:59:13 <alise> Like "/nick register password", except not /nick of course because that's taken.
14:59:14 <AnMaster> alise, sane idea if you are not doing server linking yeah
14:59:28 <alise> One advantage of services users is that you can have them in their own tab
15:00:38 <AnMaster> alise, well sure. But since they use notices to reply (RFC requires this actually, that is, automated replies should be NOTICE and you must not generate an automated reply when receiving a NOTICE, a way to block infinite loops)
15:00:56 <AnMaster> uh didn't finish the sentence I see XD
15:01:00 <alise> I know about that rule, but that rule is a bit silly.
15:01:06 <alise> IRC bots using /notice is irritating in the highest.
15:01:09 <AnMaster> well: ... they usually end up in #services for me
15:01:27 <AnMaster> since services are all joined there. That is on networks where I am in there
15:01:35 <alise> Hmm... I wonder if clients handle a completely ludicrous hostname.
15:01:47 <AnMaster> alise, you mean like the one freenode uses?
15:01:51 <AnMaster> * [AnMaster] (~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster): AnMaster
15:01:56 <alise> ": NOTICE ehird :AHAHAHA"
15:02:36 <AnMaster> alise, no that isn't just empty host name. It is empty nick and ident too
15:02:38 <alise> So in XChat that would display as "-- AHAHAHA", presumably.
15:02:42 <alise> AnMaster: Ah, right.
15:02:55 <AnMaster> alise, eh. I have no clue. But I don't recommend it
15:03:05 <AnMaster> alise, why not use server style notices
15:03:06 <alise> Why not? It would be useful for the server to send "useful" information to the client.
15:03:08 <AnMaster> let me check how they are sent
15:03:15 <alise> Don't those go to the server tab in XChat?
15:03:18 <alise> That's what I'm trying to avoid.
15:03:31 <alise> Or do you mean :a.b.c NOTICE ...
15:05:02 <AnMaster> >> :server.example.org NOTICE AnMaster :*** CHANCREATE: Channel #bar created by AnMaster!AnMaster@hostname.here
15:05:09 <AnMaster> well the >> is from my raw log
15:05:17 <AnMaster> as opposed to being sent to server
15:05:21 <alise> Right, well, an empty domain name is perfectly valid
15:05:25 <alise> So : NOTICE should work fine.
15:05:39 <AnMaster> alise, iirc it needs to be the server name sent to client on connect
15:06:08 <AnMaster> alise, but sure, go ahead and try empty host name. It wouldn't surprise me if it broke
15:06:37 <alise> * [NickServ] (NickServ@services.): Nickname Services
15:06:41 <alise> So how about :@ircd.?
15:06:49 <AnMaster> alise, no idea. I never tried it
15:06:56 <AnMaster> nor do I have easy testing of it available
15:07:15 -!- enero has joined.
15:07:28 <alise> So, just to check, the I won't run into any serious problems with an event-based model based on adding callbacks to certain types of message that come in, plus queue()ing up messages to send after handlers exit?
15:07:41 <AnMaster> alise, idea: write a "test bench" with netcat that just sends pre-written file to connecting clients
15:07:46 <AnMaster> then test clients against that
15:08:11 <oklopol> guy i've never seen rings the doorbell "hi i'm your neighbor, left the keys at home, can i borrow your cellphone?" "okay, here" "thanks, i'll just go get the number and call" *vanishes*
15:08:52 <AnMaster> alise, I have no idea. Worth a try I presume. Most ircds are single threaded and use non-blocking IO
15:08:57 <alise> congrats, you just gave away your cellphone
15:09:17 <oklopol> i thought "wow if this is a hoax then damn it's clever"
15:09:24 <alise> I must remember that for all your insanity you are a little bit stupid
15:09:37 <AnMaster> alise, with select() or whatever is available on platform that is better
15:09:49 <alise> AnMaster: of course
15:10:09 <alise> AnMaster: point is, though, you never need to block the handler until this message is sent
15:10:15 <alise> queueing up stuff will always work?
15:10:19 <oklopol> but anyway, there's really no way to get robbed in finland
15:10:22 <alise> although otoh... what's the point
15:10:41 <AnMaster> you do need to consider timed events, such as timing out old glines
15:10:44 <alise> a function in your ircd queue which does
15:10:48 <oklopol> this is a very boring country
15:10:56 <alise> queue(...) ==> append the message to an internal list
15:10:58 <alise> then when your handler exits
15:11:03 <alise> the main loop goes through all queued messages
15:11:05 <alise> and sends them off
15:11:08 <alise> then does its select-ery again
15:11:19 <alise> will it have any advantages over immediate sending, though...
15:11:33 <alise> http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/ 1st edition unix
15:11:34 <AnMaster> alise, of course, you will need to wake up sometimes even when queue is empty and there is no IO
15:11:57 * alise is almost tempted to say Meh, klines... who needs them
15:12:10 <alise> Meh, PING, who needs it. Freenode doesn't even kick you if you don't respond to pings.
15:12:30 <alise> Well it didn't beforehand and that's good enough for me
15:12:30 <AnMaster> after the switch from hyperion to charybdis
15:12:43 <AnMaster> well, not charybdis, ircd-seven. Which is charybdis + a few patches
15:13:11 <AnMaster> alise, it relied on tcp timeout indeed
15:14:19 <alise> So, now that I've the idea, I clearly must start on the most important part: the name. irked?
15:14:51 <AnMaster> alise, oh and bans. That is some fun string handling
15:15:04 <AnMaster> you need to do wild card matching there
15:15:07 <alise> "A language will not succeed without a good name. I have recently invented a very good name and now I am looking for a suitable language." --Knuth
15:15:47 <AnMaster> alise, so yes there is some string handling outside parser. for glines/klines it is ident@host only. Nick doesn't come into it
15:16:07 <alise> Or, maybe I'll just change everything so that it's better.
15:16:16 <alise> If it doesn't have an interface, it's free game!
15:16:34 <alise> Well, nobody really uses an interface to ban, they do it manually.
15:16:42 <alise> But people use an interface to talk, join, invite, etc. -- an IRC client.
15:16:44 <AnMaster> alise, and that has the wildcards
15:16:47 <AnMaster> * #esoteric Banlist: Sun Apr 18 11:01:14 *!*email@*.dyn.optonline.net verne.freenode.net
15:16:49 <alise> So I can't change the latter, but I can change the former.
15:16:53 <alise> Do you understand?
15:17:17 <AnMaster> alise, you can't change the latter easily without breaking things. for example that ban list above was formatted by my client
15:17:27 <alise> don't look at the banlist then :PP
15:17:34 <AnMaster> >> :verne.freenode.net 367 AnMaster #esoteric *!*checker@c-68-55-8-210.hsd1.md.comcast.net verne.freenode.net 1271581274
15:17:38 <AnMaster> * #esoteric Banlist: Sun Apr 18 11:01:14 *!*checker@c-68-55-8-210.hsd1.md.comcast.net verne.freenode.net
15:17:58 -!- enero has left (?).
15:18:09 <AnMaster> how I love the numerics. At least there is a nice list for it somewhere
15:18:13 <alise> Anyway, I don't think I need to worry about bans before I can get a connection going, do you?
15:18:37 <AnMaster> alise, covers many (but not all) ircds: http://winchat.fyrenet.com/OPERINFO/IrcNumerics/IRC-2%20Numeric%20List.htm
15:19:22 <alise> ~/work/2010-05/irked; so no matter how old it gets, it will always be from now.
15:19:58 <oklopol> i one made an ircd just so my friend could run his irc bot more efficiently
15:20:33 <alise> I once fucked a goat.
15:20:40 <AnMaster> anyway it isn't like you need anything more than select() or poll(), if you want to be prudent split it out in a separate function with some add()/remove()/wait() API. Should be easy to replace with epoll or whatever later then
15:21:13 <alise> AnMaster: select is easier to use at first right?
15:21:31 <alise> I'll just put select() in the main loop at first, then refactor it out into a separate function when I wish.
15:21:34 <AnMaster> alise, hm iirc both of those messes up your data structure after each wait
15:21:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:22:52 <AnMaster> alise, the point of epoll and kqueue is that they don't send the list of fds to wait on to the kernel every time. The kernel stores a list that you can wait on.
15:23:05 <AnMaster> and that also means they don't mess up your list so you have to rebuild it every time
15:23:11 <alise> So are they... easy to use?
15:23:12 <AnMaster> which at least select() does iirc
15:23:21 <alise> I'm amazingly lazy you see.
15:23:48 <alise> Because! It'll be event based, so it won't hurt, right?
15:23:56 <alise> Arithmetic hates you
15:24:12 <AnMaster> alise, I'm using IEEE floating point
15:25:12 <alise> IEEE is the devil's arithmetic.
15:25:18 <AnMaster> alise, oh btw epoll can be either level or edge triggered
15:25:42 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
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15:25:54 <alise> What what or the what what?
15:25:55 <AnMaster> that means it can return right away. Which you might want. epoll can be set to only return on change.
15:26:05 -!- MizardX has joined.
15:26:37 * alise wonders whether to write it using CWEB. Literate programming! Nah.
15:26:45 <AnMaster> alise, of course epoll is linux specific, kqueue is freebsd specific (and possibly other *bsd), /dev/poll is solaris
15:26:54 <AnMaster> windows has something completely different again
15:27:13 * alise notes a big advantage of literate programming's blocks is that they can access variables where they appear, unlike functions.
15:27:18 <AnMaster> poll and select are both fairly standard. Possibly excluding *BSD
15:28:02 <AnMaster> s/Possibly excluding \*BSD/Possibly excluding Windows/
15:28:23 <alise> parse_options(argc, argv);
15:28:28 <alise> whereas with literate programming you'd just say
15:28:40 <alise> and later on the <<parse options>> code could use argc and argv
15:28:44 <alise> (It's not goto; it's all rearranged before compiling)
15:29:33 <alise> fprintf(stderr, "You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!\n");
15:29:46 <alise> I will hereby heartily accept dares of the form "keep this as your invalid-option message forever".
15:29:50 <AnMaster> alise, do you still have functions in literate programming?
15:30:00 <alise> AnMaster: Yes; it's plain C in the end, of course. Well, or Pascal :-D
15:30:26 <alise> But it has things like "macros" -- sort of like preprocessor macros but saner, for tiny little not-even-functions -- and the "blocks" which are the main thing, literate programming isn't just comments-by-default,
15:30:53 <alise> it's about being able to write your code in the order that it's relevant, so that you can talk about it, and then later say "Here's how we parse the options of the program" because the reader /does not need to know those details/ before understanding more about the program
15:31:01 <AnMaster> alise, is the generated output readable btw?
15:31:05 <alise> AnMaster: I guess so.
15:31:16 <alise> Why would you want to, though?
15:31:28 <AnMaster> well, debugging literate programming typos.
15:31:38 <alise> Anyway, you can sort of do blocks in regular C by predeclaring a function; but you have to manually pass around variables and can only have one return variable instead of changing others.
15:31:39 <AnMaster> also I hope it uses #line as required
15:31:44 <AnMaster> so you can get useful back traces
15:31:45 <alise> And it's more verbose to declare a function, and you have to under_score_your_name.
15:31:54 <alise> AnMaster: I don't think CWEB does.
15:31:55 <AnMaster> alise, oh and could you use the "<<parse options>>" thing in several places?
15:32:12 <AnMaster> alise, okay that could cause some confusion for back traces
15:32:43 <alise> I'm pretty sure it works fine :P
15:32:47 <AnMaster> since it might be hard to figure out which case of using that code it was that crashed
15:32:55 <alise> You have this strange condition where you try and search for the problems first in everything.
15:33:41 * alise uses c99 so that he doesn't have to put (void) in function declarations
15:33:46 <alise> Stupidest thing ever, stupid!
15:33:59 <alise> void foo(); <-- this is invalid in c89
15:34:22 <AnMaster> alise, it means a K&R style function in C89 iirc
15:34:24 <alise> "Gee, how should we denote a function having no arguments?" "Uh... put void in there... void is like... nothingness..." [some time passes] "Wow, we were really fucking stoned last night. Hey, I wonder what we did to C? ...WHAT?"
15:34:54 <AnMaster> so void means a function with no parameters in C89. while having nothing there means it isn't specified, like in K&R
15:35:10 <alise> But in C99, "void foo();" is the same as "void foo(void);"
15:36:24 <alise> Aw man, this doesn't work:
15:36:25 <alise> while ((int opt = getopt(argc, argv, "v")) != -1) {
15:37:09 * alise attempts to get \ae displaying on his terminal
15:37:24 <alise> Of course it's an IRC dmon, why wouldn't I print that? (Note: I am currently procrastinating)
15:38:29 <alise> \ae monospaced looks freaky.
15:40:20 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:49:51 <alise> Wow, someone actually made a non-sucking package manager for OS X.
15:49:58 <alise> And oklopol disappears!
15:50:38 <oklopol> i just remembered package managers are boring -------->
16:01:34 <alise> The past tense of the past tense of "shit".
16:02:32 <oerjan> (that works particularly well if you realize that norwegian æ is pronounced pretty close to the a in ass)
16:02:51 <pineapple> that;s what i thought you meant by "shat"
16:03:52 <alise> anyway i meant shut
16:05:14 <oerjan> an ø would be closer for that
16:06:15 <oerjan> (the stereotypically bad norwegian english accent would pronounce shut with an ø)
16:07:40 <oerjan> hm even closer with british english, i presume
16:09:46 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
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16:13:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Will someone *please* remove the dead link in the welcome message?
16:15:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes it is.
16:17:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit).
16:17:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:18:48 <alise> http://loremipsum.net/screenshots/fullpromote.jpg
16:18:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: a map with us folk
16:19:59 <pineapple> wow, Leeds held on for a while there...
16:20:46 -!- oerjan has left (?).
16:20:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:20:50 <Sgeo_> There's someone in another channel with the nickname Leeds
16:21:57 * Sgeo_ thought void foo(); meant something stupid like a variable number of arguments?
16:22:59 <oerjan> now it gives a link to the wiki instead
16:24:25 <alise> You can't do that to our tradition!
16:28:11 <Sgeo_> How light can desktop computers get?
16:28:36 <oerjan> well if they get too light they would float off
16:29:22 <oerjan> i suppose you could glue them to the desktop to fix that
16:29:53 * Sgeo_ has a table that this laptop is currently resting on
16:30:04 <Sgeo_> I don't know if I'd trust it with a heavy computer
16:30:10 -!- oklopol has left (?).
16:30:10 -!- oklopol has joined.
16:30:37 <pineapple> Sgeo_: probably about 4kg is the lower limit
16:30:53 <pineapple> and that's for all 4 main components (base unit, monitor, keyboard, mouse)
16:30:57 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_: () does indicate variable args.
16:31:10 <Sgeo_> Oh right, keyboard
16:31:15 <alise> pineapple: hmm, i think you are wrong
16:31:21 <alise> those holographic keyboard things are quite light aren't they?
16:31:21 * Sgeo_ is not sure how that will fit on the table
16:31:25 <alise> they're meant to be portable after all
16:31:34 <alise> tiny tiny mouse = no weight
16:31:39 <pineapple> so that's not much of the total weight
16:31:44 <alise> pineapple: monitor... you can get tiny 8" "portable" monitors
16:32:03 <alise> the computer itself can be less than 1kg.
16:32:12 <alise> (see: e.g. every lightweight laptop)
16:32:12 <pineapple> i was assuming something like a reasonable tft
16:32:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, how do you indicate "takes any args" in C99, then?
16:32:24 <alise> pineapple: then basically we're just measuring weight(tft) + epsilon :P
16:32:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ...
16:32:33 <alise> just like best practice in c89
16:32:40 <alise> int foo(int abc, int def, ...);
16:32:48 <alise> note you must have at least one argument when using varargs
16:33:01 <Sgeo_> I want a good gaming computer
16:34:17 <pineapple> can a pointer to void be a valid argument to a function?
16:34:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's useless unless there's at least one argument to tell you how to understand the rest
16:36:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: any old junk?
16:37:05 <alise> a variadic function MUST have at least one argument.
16:37:08 <alise> or it is undefined behaviour
16:37:37 <alise> also, I'm pretty sure you have to process every argument before ending a variadic function, so you have to have e.g. either a terminator such as NULL or have the first argument be the number of following arguments
16:40:02 <Phantom_Hoover> But how do you allow the function to take absolutely any arguments whatsoever?
16:42:05 <Phantom_Hoover> But it makes perfect sense in the context of x86 calling conventions.
16:42:09 <oklopol> if you need to process them all, then you can't
16:44:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: tough shit, this is C, there are rules, albeit very few of them
16:44:29 <alise> if you want to work on only x86/gcc, write anything that compiles
16:44:44 <alise> char *foo(...) { return "Fuck you, C"; }
16:45:57 <alise> The new album from Radiohead; a sequel to "OK Computer"... the stunning, critically acclaimed...
16:56:20 <Phantom_Hoover> !c char *foo(){return "Fuck you, C";} int main(){printf("%s\n", foo())}
16:56:34 <alise> !c int fuck() { return 0; } int main() { fuck(1,2,3,"abc"); }
16:56:46 <alise> hmm may need a newline between functions
16:56:51 <alise> !c int fuck() { return 0; } int main() { fuck(1,2,3,"abc"); printf("Sex robots\n"); }
16:57:04 <Mathnerd314> !c char *foo(){return "Fuck you, C";} int main(){printf("%s\n", foo());}
16:57:22 <alise> !c char *foo(){return "Fuck you, C";} int main(){printf("%s\n", foo("FUCKING","POGO","STICKS","RRRRRRRRRRRRNGH"));}
16:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> !c char *foo(...){return "Fuck you, C";} int main(){printf("%s\n", foo());}
16:57:30 <alise> Note that this is all undefined.
16:57:37 <alise> Passing a function more arguments than it takes? Yeah, undefined.
16:57:40 <alise> Good luck. Have fun.
16:58:22 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for c!
17:02:48 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:04:16 <ais523> pikhq: I lost in the second round in the Pokémon tournament, in the end
17:04:23 <alise> ais523: aw, bad luck!
17:04:34 <alise> ais523: ...so perl6 has * now, meaning... anything? apparently you can use it to select "any item of a list" or something
17:04:38 <ais523> he had a pretty good team (RNGed like mine was), and outpredicted me on the second turn
17:04:40 <alise> does it pick a random element or something?
17:04:45 <ais523> alise: * has meant "anything" for a while
17:04:56 <alise> so does @foo[*] work?
17:04:59 <ais523> and it's a sort-of quantifier, in a sence
17:05:08 <ais523> @foo[*] means "every element in @foo"
17:05:15 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yes, in order to get the teams in the first place
17:05:35 <ais523> the in-battle RNG hasn't been hacked, and anyway it would be impossible to control the seed in tournament conditions
17:06:18 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: http://shaym.in/apps/iv_checker if you're interested
17:06:21 <ais523> I wrote that, although I'm not hosting it
17:07:03 <ais523> basically you enter the stats you want and it says "set your game to such and such a date and time, start with a delay of such and such a time period, use the nth seed to get your Pokémon"
17:08:17 <alise> @foo[?] = any elemnt
17:08:44 <cheater99> is that cute or what http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs208.snc1/7535_159039461451_520306451_2810195_1099162_n.jpg
17:09:48 <alise> ais523: I'm trying to get it to give me the shittiest magikarp imaginable :(
17:10:25 * Sgeo_ has never played Pokemon stuff (except Pokemon Snap, with a friend, a long time ago)
17:10:35 <Sgeo_> But I have read books (again, a long time ago)
17:11:30 <Mathnerd314> alise: I think * means both and you can use any() or all() to switch
17:11:34 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99: That's taken from Facebook, as far as I can tell.
17:12:14 <alise> ais523: I want IVs from Stats right?
17:12:25 <ais523> alise: probably the other way round
17:12:31 <ais523> and it'll give you the minimum stats
17:12:38 <alise> ais523: tried that, it didn't give me any RNG options
17:12:52 <ais523> alise: what nature did you set?
17:12:58 <ais523> most natures are impossible with any given set of IVs
17:13:01 <ais523> it's one of the way you hack-check
17:13:08 <ais523> e.g. a flawless Pokémon has to be either Modest or Timid
17:13:16 <alise> unspecified characteristic right?
17:13:16 <ais523> there's probably a similar restriction on an anti-flawless Pokémon
17:13:24 <ais523> you don't care about that
17:13:29 <ais523> nor hidden power, probably
17:13:43 <alise> brave 0-level 0-hp 0-atk 0-def 0-spa 0-spd 0-spe brave(! :D) magikarp
17:14:10 <alise> Seed 5DD69706, delay 12238, frame 7 gives hp 10, atk 5, def 5, spa 5, spd 5, spe 4
17:14:15 <alise> that's rubbish :((
17:14:22 <ais523> that's close to the minimum possible
17:14:28 <ais523> (brave raises atk and reduces spe)
17:14:34 * alise tries other natures
17:14:41 <ais523> all natures are either neutral
17:14:44 <ais523> or raise one stat and drop one
17:14:53 <alise> docile gives hp 10, all others 5
17:15:02 <ais523> brave is the worst possible, then
17:15:06 <ais523> if its atk boost isn't doing anything
17:15:07 <alise> hasty gives all 5 except def=4
17:15:12 <ais523> then you may as well factor in the spe or def drop
17:15:23 <ais523> also, 12238 is a painfully high delay
17:15:36 <ais523> given that 60 is one second, and 3600 is one minute
17:15:41 <ais523> you'd be waiting for ages on the title screen
17:15:59 <cheater99> i cannot believe you people would rather talk about pokemon than hot chicks
17:16:03 <Sgeo_> <Sgeo_> (I have an irrational fear of Perl and PHP)
17:16:03 <Sgeo_> <yath> PUT PHP AND PERL INTO THE SAME SENTENCE
17:16:36 <cheater99> Sgeo_, what about perl php and coldfusion?
17:16:39 <alise> ais523: so skip ahead with a simulator
17:16:48 <Sgeo_> <yath> php is just a nice invention to keep the dumbasses away from perl
17:16:52 <ais523> alise: that would defeat the point of controlling the RNG
17:16:55 <alise> anyway 3.399{4r} minutes isn't so bad
17:17:10 <ais523> the problem is being accurate to 1/60 of a second after that long
17:17:13 <alise> ais523: so what's the absolute worst pokemon I can get, do you know?
17:17:21 <alise> presumably not a magikarp, if it has a whole 10hp and ~5 stats
17:17:26 <ais523> hmm, there are some that are very bad
17:17:32 <ais523> if you just care about low stats, try sunkern
17:17:35 <alise> magikarp has the advantage of having no attacks
17:17:44 <Sgeo_> I actually have a book on ColdFusion somewhere
17:17:47 <cheater99> why do you need the worst ever pokemon?
17:17:47 <ais523> alise: Unown has fewer
17:17:47 <alise> (attacks are generally considered bad because they can be used to hurt the other pokemon, which might upset it)
17:17:53 <ais523> although it deals damage
17:17:57 <alise> cheater99: KINDNESS
17:18:00 <Deewiant> In the new ones magikarp learns tackle, doesn't it?
17:18:01 <ais523> alise: Unown learns a grand total of 1 attack
17:18:05 <ais523> as opposed to Magikarp's 4
17:18:09 <ais523> (splash, tackle, bounce, flail)
17:18:11 <Deewiant> Magikarp used to learn only Splash
17:18:20 <ais523> it's learnt Tackle at lv.15 forever
17:18:22 <alise> ais523: what's the difference between 1, j and k
17:18:31 <ais523> alise: depends on how you're catching the Pokémon
17:18:45 <alise> wait, magikarps aren't always completely useless?
17:18:47 <ais523> in the case of Magikarp, you're probably fishing, so J on Diamond/Pearl/Platinum and K on HeartGold and SoulSilver
17:18:51 <alise> oh my god I want a level 100 magikarp now <3
17:18:59 <alise> ais523: pah, what about us sapphire owners
17:19:01 <ais523> alise: there's a Magikarp sweep on Youtube somewhere
17:19:03 <pikhq> alise: Magikarp can also learn Surf.
17:19:11 <alise> admittedly i have one of the ds ones
17:19:11 <pikhq> And Surf is actually a *good* move.
17:19:12 <ais523> alise: Sapphire uses method 1, 2, 3, or 4, but the reasoning behind which hasn't been determined yet
17:19:21 <Deewiant> I thought it only learned Splash back in Gen 1
17:19:23 <ais523> Gyarados does, Magikarp doesn't because it doesn't learn TMs and HMs
17:19:29 <pikhq> ais523: ... Wait, a water type that doesn't learn surf?
17:19:34 <pikhq> God damn Magikarp sucks.
17:19:38 <Deewiant> Well, Kakuna and company only learn Harden
17:19:45 <alise> what's the max stats for the various ones? I know little of pokeman's workings
17:19:50 <ais523> and Unown only learns Hidden Power
17:19:56 <Deewiant> Hidden Power's an attack, though
17:20:00 <Deewiant> Kakuna's incapable of doing any damage
17:20:01 <alise> HIDDEN BECAUSE IT CAN'T DO SHIT LOL
17:20:02 <ais523> alise: you can look up the max stats for a particular Pokémon
17:20:07 <pikhq> alise: I'm pretty sure the breeding mechanic lets you get a Magikarp with other moves.
17:20:10 <ais523> Deewiant: Kakuna can be tutored Bug Bite, IIRC
17:20:16 <ais523> pikhq: it's restricted to Bounce
17:20:21 <Deewiant> ais523: Not in Gen 1, at least according to Bulbapedia
17:20:23 <pikhq> (not positive, though, because I never tried)
17:20:31 <ais523> http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/magikarp/moves
17:20:34 <pikhq> ais523: God damn Magikarp sucks.
17:20:36 <ais523> two in gen 1, splash and tackle
17:20:42 <ais523> flail came up later, bounce is a tutor move IIRC
17:20:47 <alise> http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Magikarp_(Pok%C3%A9mon)#Pok.C3.A9dex_entries_2 HAHAHAHA the pokedex fucking hates magikarp
17:20:56 <alise> You're a horribly weak, pathetic Pokemon! Die the fuck out already!
17:21:08 <alise> click the link, it has them all
17:21:09 <pikhq> ais523: There's also that one move you get when you're out of PP. :)
17:21:10 <Deewiant> Before gen 4 Kakuna learned only Harden; but yeah, in 4 it can be tutored stuff
17:21:19 <alise> It evolves into Gyarados starting at level 20.
17:21:22 <alise> you can avoid evolving right?
17:21:28 <alise> but can you get a level 100 magikarp
17:21:30 <ais523> if you want a bit of fun, http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/kakuna
17:21:57 <alise> someone complete the game with just ridiculously overpowered magikarps, please
17:22:03 * pikhq was fond of level 100 Gyarados, though
17:22:08 <ais523> Deewiant: it can have poison sting and string shot if it evolved from a weedle
17:22:13 <alise> FUCK GYRADOS magikarp is superior
17:22:14 <pikhq> alise: I shall in a bit.
17:22:36 <pikhq> When I sit down and play Pokemon Green.
17:22:53 <ais523> I just love the strategy analysis for kakuna, anyway
17:23:02 <ais523> I think it was originally a reaction to a bout of trolling
17:23:11 <ais523> where someone repeatedly claimed kakuna should have an analysis
17:23:36 <alise> pikhq: Bah, oldschool is for wimps
17:23:44 <Deewiant> Does metapod have one too? :-P
17:23:46 <alise> Sapphire was the best Pokemon game frrlz (I assert this because I have it)
17:23:51 <alise> OH MY GOD level 100 metapod
17:24:06 <Deewiant> Metapod is essentially equivalent to Kakuna
17:24:31 <ais523> Deewiant: I don't think so
17:24:44 <alise> magikarp / metapod / kakuna TEAM OF WINNERS
17:24:52 <Deewiant> Okay, so they're a bit different
17:24:56 <Deewiant> But they have the same moveset
17:25:05 <alise> pronun=<math>Ka-KOO-nuh</math>|
17:25:18 <alise> Oh, wait, this isn't bulbapedia
17:25:22 <alise> It's some wikia thing
17:25:24 <Sgeo_> "With Python, you might be forced to use nano!" "When?" "If, say, the customer doesn't have vim installed"
17:25:24 <ais523> other humorous analyses include http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/unown and http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/luvdisc
17:25:41 <ais523> luvdisc is amusing because it's very fast and its other moves are pathetic
17:25:49 <ais523> and its only good moves are those that raise Speed
17:25:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:26:07 <alise> Speed doubles in rain.
17:26:08 <alise> Oh that's just greaT
17:26:38 <ais523> yes, it's actually a useful ability
17:27:14 <ais523> "Luvdisc is great if you're playing with Battle Timeout, because its mere presence should cause your opponent to laugh at it for so long that you win the match."
17:27:43 * Sgeo_ knows little about Pokemon
17:27:52 <Deewiant> You can teach it surf and ice beam and stuff, it can't be bad
17:27:57 * alise remembers his automatic-virtual-server-for-one-command thing
17:27:58 <Sgeo_> Except that there are Pokemon named Mew and Mewtoo/Mew2/?
17:28:16 <alise> Sgeo_: play the pokemon games immediately.
17:28:19 <alise> also, it's mewtwo.
17:28:24 <pikhq> And you're how old?
17:28:38 <pikhq> HOW DID YOU NOT PLAY POKEMON
17:28:47 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:29:08 <Sgeo_> I never had a handheld game thing
17:29:19 <pikhq> HOW DID YOU NOT PLAY POKEMON
17:29:20 <Deewiant> I only played it on an emulator
17:29:41 <Sgeo_> Does Pokemon Snap count?
17:30:22 <alise> Get a Pokemon game.
17:30:36 <Deewiant> Buying a DS just for Pokémon is a bit of a waste IMO
17:30:49 <pikhq> Deewiant: I bought a GBC just for Pokemon.
17:31:01 <Deewiant> I tend to get bored of the Pokémon games pretty quickly
17:31:05 <pikhq> It then got used for other games, but still.
17:31:17 <alise> Deewiant: The DS is good anyway, so eh
17:31:20 <alise> It's not so bad, at least.
17:31:26 <pikhq> I had an obsession about that game...
17:31:29 <alise> You could get a GBA really cheap though I bet
17:31:32 <alise> Although I'd get a GBA SP
17:31:37 <alise> the GBA's lack of a backlight was stupidity personified
17:31:38 <Deewiant> Well, if you can think of uses for it / other games to play, sure
17:31:42 <ais523> an original DS should be pretty cheap by now
17:31:50 <ais523> alise: nothing before the GBA had a backlight either
17:31:54 <alise> yeah but i have a soft spot before the gba sp :P
17:31:56 * pikhq has played through Blue and Gold at least 3 times each.
17:32:00 <alise> ais523: but the gba had more colour detail
17:32:03 <alise> so it had more darker areas
17:32:06 <alise> for e.g. grass and stuff
17:32:16 <Deewiant> What about the original GB? :-P
17:32:25 <pikhq> ais523: Uh... Game Gear?
17:32:39 <ais523> I meant, no Nintendo portable
17:32:45 <ais523> rather than nothing in general
17:32:53 <pikhq> Uh, the Gameboy Light?
17:32:55 <alise> Slight disadvantage to the GB: Tetris and Pokemon, ok, you can throw it away now
17:33:15 <alise> pikhq: Buy an SNES
17:33:30 <pikhq> alise: Also true, but the Zelda games for it were good.
17:33:40 <ais523> pikhq: the GBA had a little attachable light too that pointed at the front
17:33:43 <ais523> powered by its battery
17:33:45 <alise> ais523: it was shit, though.
17:33:53 <pikhq> ais523: The Gameboy Light was a backlight Gameboy Pocket.
17:33:57 <ais523> it was good enough to play in the dark, but still awful
17:34:00 <Sgeo_> My dad found a PSP that he might give me. Can Pokemon games run on that?
17:34:10 <ais523> Sony rather than Nintendo
17:34:15 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Yes, emulator.
17:34:40 <alise> The PSP is shitty though
17:34:48 <alise> Quite heavy, and uh... rubbish controls... and rubbish everything...
17:34:50 <alise> and it sucks dick...
17:35:39 <ais523> Sgeo_ (or anyone else here): I'll play you on a simulator if you like
17:35:59 <alise> I'll play! VirtualBoy Advance doesn't work on Linux right?
17:36:02 <Sgeo_> Would doing that involve anything illegal?
17:36:17 <Deewiant> alise: It works through wine IIRC
17:36:21 <alise> Although ais523 probably legally scanned his ROM or something
17:36:30 <ais523> alise: I mean the ones that do the game mechanics separately
17:36:37 <ais523> which avoid copyright trouble because they're a reimplementation
17:36:39 <ais523> rather htan the original code
17:36:43 <Sgeo_> Would doing whatever involve something that could easily make me get caught (and I count BitTorrent in that)
17:36:48 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined.
17:36:52 <ais523> Sgeo_: at least my way's legal
17:36:53 <Deewiant> Oh, those exist? Should've guessed I suppose
17:36:59 <alise> lol @ bittorrent easily get caught
17:37:01 <ais523> Deewiant: at least three
17:37:13 <alise> sometimes sgeo is funny. othertimes i just want to bash my head against a brick wall
17:37:17 <alise> ais523: http://birdiesoft.dk/software.php?id=2 high-tech
17:37:19 <Sgeo_> Although I guess for more obscure things, the liklihood is low
17:37:26 <alise> the likelihood is ~0
17:37:35 <ais523> bittorrent has other nasty side effects
17:37:42 <ais523> like getting your ISP to throttle you for the rest of the mont
17:37:48 <ais523> for using too much bandwidth
17:37:50 <alise> only if you have a shitty isp
17:37:56 <alise> any isp that does that is irrevocably evil
17:38:06 <Sgeo_> don't know if it does that
17:38:17 <Sgeo_> Oh, and I can't open any ports on the router
17:38:52 <pikhq> alise: My ISP is irrevocably evil.
17:39:19 <pikhq> Though it's a function of "you used too much bandwidth; no bandwidth for you!" rather than "you used Bittorrent; no bandwidth for you!"
17:39:39 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:39:42 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
17:40:06 <alise> MOAR LIEK A "DYS"FUNCTION LOL
17:41:15 <Mathnerd314> is bandwidth expensive or something? why do people throttle it?
17:41:32 <ais523> probably because they don't have enough for all their customers
17:42:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
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17:43:10 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: US ISPs prefer to make 0 improvements on infrastructure.
17:43:21 <pikhq> "It was good enough in '95, it's good enough now!"
17:44:10 <alise> what's the language code for latin?
17:44:21 <alise> & is it correct to mark Lorem Ipsum filler in it? :-)
17:44:32 <ais523> lorem ipsum isn't latin any more
17:44:35 <Deewiant> Only if it's Latin instead of pseudo-Latin
17:44:37 <alise> yes, but it's not english either
17:44:43 <alise> and there's no pseudo-la :-)
17:44:52 <ais523> it's a latin poem, but its letter frequency distribution was changed to that of English
17:45:02 <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English
17:45:06 <alise> I'd mark "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit." as Latin
17:45:25 <alise> but I guess if even the spelling is wrong...
17:46:09 <alise> dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit
17:46:25 <ais523> alise: that's great filler
17:46:27 <alise> so some words are actually intact... "do" is dropped from one word, and "ng" added to another
17:46:39 <ais523> the one you'd mark as English, that is
17:46:44 -!- melnibo_ has left (?).
17:46:54 <alise> Bobbington eathly worked EXCREM un;to
17:47:04 <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
17:47:57 <ais523> `addquote <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
17:48:07 <HackEgo> 167|<alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
17:48:17 <alise> hey, usually we put two spaces before the next message! :P (kidding)
17:49:09 <alise> grr, stupid parsers
17:53:57 <alise> WHY WON'T YOU WORK!
17:59:51 * Sgeo_ monadically parses alise
18:00:01 <alise> I'll monad your parsec
18:01:55 <Sgeo_> alise, http://torrentfreak.com/hurt-locker-makers-sue-5000-bittorrent-users-100529/
18:02:33 <ais523> alise: btw, you can hover your mouse over the delay in that IV checker to give you the corresponding time and date
18:02:44 <alise> Sgeo_: so basically they sued a ton of people without actually knowing shit about them
18:04:41 <alise> Cupidtino is a beautiful new dating site created for fans of Apple products by fans of Apple products! Why? Diehard Mac & Apple fans often have a lot in common personalities, creative professions, a similar sense of style and aesthetics, taste, and of course a love for technology. We believe these are enough reasons for two people to meet and fall in love, and so we created the first Mac-inspired dating site to help you find other Machearts around you.
18:04:41 <alise> Cupidtino will launch in June 2010 exclusively on Apple platforms Safari, iPhone and iPad apps. Its time to share the love.
18:04:50 <alise> It's ... it actually seems to be real
18:04:59 <alise> It's been in the WSJ
18:05:31 <alise> "Is it wrong for a straight guy to *want* to watch Sex & the City?" --@cupidtinoCA
18:06:19 <alise> http://online.wsj.com/media/cupidtino_D_20100507111722.jpg
18:08:33 <Sgeo_> How do you release something exclusively for Safari?
18:09:39 <Sgeo_> Also, Safari on Windows exists.
18:11:53 <ais523> setting something up so it works on Safari yet not, say, Chrome or Epiphany seems tricky without resorting to tricks like user-agent sniffing
18:13:29 <ais523> alise: what do you think about Apple overtaking Microsoft in market capitalization?
18:13:37 <ais523> ofc, it's not the only measure of success, but I'm pretty amazed at it
18:13:43 <alise> ais523: You're joking.
18:13:54 <ais523> nah, it was all over the tech news
18:14:04 <alise> Well, nobody likes MS much.
18:15:08 * Sgeo_ is using their Operating System
18:15:23 <ais523> http://online.barrons.com/article/SB127508624930598443.html for instance
18:15:45 <ais523> also interesting is that Apple now has the second-highest market cap of any publicly-traded US company, after ExxonMobil
18:15:55 <ais523> quite a few people think it's a bubble, but it's still surprising
18:16:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:17:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:17:22 <cheater99> i have just found a hot chick on facebook
18:17:31 <cheater99> she has the same last name as i do
18:18:35 <Sgeo_> I rarely add people I don't know IRL to Facebook
18:18:42 <ais523> I'm not even a member of Facebook
18:18:46 <alise> cheater99: I hear they don't call it incest any more
18:19:26 <Sgeo_> No, this is scary: http://sshkeygen.com/
18:19:53 <oklopol> ais523: why scary? i just think it's pointless
18:20:11 <ais523> oklopol: have you seen what they do with the information stored there?
18:20:19 <ais523> also, how they put a huge amount of pressure on people not to leave
18:21:40 <Sgeo_> Should I admit that I just checked alise's profile on Reddit?
18:23:05 <Sgeo_> You mentioned Steve Pavlina
18:23:21 <Sgeo_> He's the guy who took down Dexterity Games to run some self-improvement articles
18:23:37 <ais523> mentioning Steve Pavlina makes Sgeo check your Reddit profile?
18:24:08 <alise> all I know about steve pavlina is that his forums are shit and that he polyphased successfully.
18:24:19 * Sgeo_ misses dexterity.com
18:24:22 <ais523> I don't have a Reddit profile, so it might be hard for him or her to do so
18:27:07 <ais523> years of habit on the Internet often give me a sudden burst of revulsion when I use a gendered pronoun for anything
18:27:27 <oklopol> "<ais523> also, how they put a huge amount of pressure on people not to leave" <<< what do you mean?
18:28:01 <alise> ais523: why not just use "they"?
18:28:24 * Sgeo_ ponders how best to force ais523 to use a gendered pronoun
18:28:32 <ais523> oklopol: if you leave Facebook, it goes and tells all your friends you defriended them
18:28:48 <ais523> and that's considered a really bad thing by most Facebook users
18:28:55 <Sgeo_> People generally don't know when someone defriends someone
18:29:04 <ais523> Sgeo_: you know if someone defriends /you/
18:29:09 <Sgeo_> Unless they're using [say] a Greasemonkey script
18:29:34 <ais523> Sgeo_: I don't know this from personal experience
18:29:36 <Sgeo_> I have NEVER gotten a notice that I was defriended
18:29:44 <ais523> well, maybe nobody's ever defriended you
18:29:45 <Sgeo_> Even though I'm certain it's happened
18:29:51 <ais523> it's not a common thing to do on Facebook, it seems
18:29:59 <Sgeo_> There's a Greasemonkey script for it
18:30:22 <ais523> it would be obvious anyway, when they weren't marked as a friend when you tried to view their profile info
18:30:25 <alise> "Whoever after due and proper warning shall be heard to utter the abominable word "Frisco", which has no linguistic or other warrant, shall be deemed guilty of a High Misdemeanor, and shall pay into the Imperial Treasury as penalty the sum of twenty-five dollars." --Norton I of the United States, Protector of Mexico
18:30:26 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523: I don't recall getting a message when I was defriended.
18:30:36 <ais523> (although lately, Facebook by default shows all your info to everyone regardless of if they're friends or not...)
18:30:38 <alise> Sorry, *NORTON I, Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
18:30:40 <Sgeo_> But that's not the same as getting a notice
18:31:05 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: That iw.net link is *not* the worst-designed website.
18:31:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Please see parent comment
18:31:24 <alise> It's Archimedes Plutonium's website.
18:31:29 <alise> The whole universe is a plutonium atom, as we all know.
18:31:44 <ais523> wait, this is #esoteric, not #esoteric!
18:31:49 <Sgeo_> Archimedes Plutonium?
18:32:06 <ais523> theories like that are the wrong sort of esoteric
18:32:37 <alise> ais523: you're the wrong sort of esoteric
18:33:13 <ais523> hmm, now I'm vaguely wondering if there are any websites which look fine and have no major problems, apart from being designed completely awfully
18:33:18 <alise> "When, during the Second Italo-Abyssinian War, the League accused Benito Mussolini's soldiers of targeting Red Cross medical tents, Mussolini responded that Ethiopians were not fully human, therefore the human rights laws did not apply."
18:33:21 <ais523> (don't link me to one if you know one)
18:33:45 <Sgeo_> Even the music of the bridal site is ugly
18:33:53 <ais523> alise: surely the Red Cross weren't necessarily Ethiopian? Even discarding the premises being wrong, the reasoning is also wrong
18:34:15 <Sgeo_> Oh, that may have been because another tab was open
18:34:24 <Sgeo_> Yeah, not a good site to browse with tabs
18:34:44 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nort10d.jpg I'd love one of these.
18:35:45 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:36:53 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Frank_chu_20060423.JPG Okay sir
18:37:27 -!- pikhq has set topic: This room formed in honor of Norton the First, by the grace of God Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:37:44 <alise> His signs change from day to day, and tend to go through syntactically-similar phases, with the phrase "12 Galaxies" being his trademark and a constant presence in the signs. In June 2007, Chu broke from this tradition and started replacing this with "85 Galaxies"[14], "130 Galaxies"[15], "800 Galaxies"[16], then "1000 Galaxies"[17]. At the 2007 Castro Halloween Party, Chu's sign claimed "7,645,000 Galaxies", at MacWorld 2008 he was up to 75,850,000[18], and
18:37:45 <alise> at the Iraq War protest on March 19, 2008 he was up to 8,685,000,000[19].
18:37:48 <alise> OH GOD WHEN WILL THE GALAXIES END
18:37:59 <zzo38> Perhaps make esolang with mahjong tiles, or tarot cards, or Washizu mahjong tiles
18:38:21 <ais523> mahjong would work quite well
18:38:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: This room formed in honor of Norton the First, by the grace of God Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:38:44 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: what did you change?
18:39:00 <ais523> thought so, so I was wondering what happened
18:39:09 <ais523> it should be impossible to change the topic to itself...
18:39:18 -!- alise has set topic: This room formed in honor of Norton the First, by the grace of God Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:40:59 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know exactly how, but maybe with tenpai operator and so on, and also, perhaps the different tile can also correspond to different command too, or maybe something else
18:41:44 <zzo38> Washizu mahjong means some of the tiles are transparent (I actually have a mahjong set like this, although it first appeared in manga before anyone actually made them)
18:42:18 <zzo38> In fact, I own three sets of mahjong tiles
18:43:10 <zzo38> In Washizu mahjong the gloves are necessary, otherwise you can feel the tiles by your hand before you pick them up, and you can cheat
18:43:54 <cheater99> alise, what do they call it then? ^_^
18:44:04 <zzo38> Yes, they are engraved, they can be felt
18:45:55 <zzo38> If you are good at it, yes
18:46:44 <zzo38> No, only two are Japanese. One is for American mahjong. (I never play American mahjong however, but if someone wanted to play American mahjong, I could do so)
18:51:10 * Sgeo_ should probably shave at some point
18:51:35 <zzo38> Do you like to play solitaire card? I have invented a few (including a cardset to go with it), but I have not typed a description of the rules yet
18:51:45 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/
18:51:53 <zzo38> Perhaps I should post screenshots of the cardsets and stuff
18:52:35 <Sgeo_> Biggest problem with colored nicks: When the nicks are the same color, it can be confusing. If all nicks were the same color, I'd be paying attention to each line's nick, and not have this problem
18:52:41 <Sgeo_> I thought zzo38 was ais523
18:52:50 <zzo38> There is 1 cardset and 6 games so far (in 2 ruleset files, each containing 3 games, which are similar with each-other in the same file)
18:53:03 <ais523> Sgeo_: I don't see how you can possibly muddle zzo38 with anyone else in existence
18:54:04 <zzo38> ais523: Perhaps because of the digits at the end of "zzo38" and "ais523"? I don't know. Also, I am not cloaked (they won't give me the cloak I ask)
18:54:36 <pikhq> Sgeo_: zzo38 is a most unique individual. Hard to mistake.
18:55:00 -!- ais523 has changed nick to zzo523.
18:55:50 <zzo38> The cloak I ask is forward DNS cloak, and they don't do forward DNS cloaks here.
18:56:24 <zzo38> (The default when connecting is reverse DNS)
18:56:54 -!- coppro has joined.
18:56:55 -!- zzo523 has changed nick to ais523.
18:57:02 -!- AnMaster has joined.
18:57:47 <alise> if you want to see who zzo38 is, just look for someone awesome
18:58:39 <zzo38> alise: I doubt that will work, there is too many of everything like that
18:58:49 <alise> name another awesome person in this room
18:59:06 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
18:59:46 <ais523> at least half of us are awesome in one way or another
18:59:54 <ais523> but I don't think anyone's awesome in quite the same way zzo38 is
19:00:05 <ais523> except zzo38 of course
19:00:06 <alise> ok then, to figure out who zzo38 is look for someone who's zzawesome
19:02:25 <alise> GRR!! PARSERS ARE BROKEN 'N SHIT
19:03:13 <zzo38> If you want to see who I am, look for the guy with Pocket Monster Philosopohical Level. I might be the only guy that has one of those!
19:03:31 <alise> ais523: oh wow, you should play zzo38
19:03:53 <AnMaster> ever noticed how slow a gear ratio of 576:1 is?
19:04:06 <AnMaster> given reasonable input speeds for lego motors
19:04:06 <alise> ever noticed how slow a gear ratio of 1,000,000:1 is?
19:04:18 <zzo38> s/Philosopohical/Philosophical/
19:04:23 <pikhq> Ever noticed how impractical a gear ratio of infinity:1 is?
19:04:24 <AnMaster> alise, well that is a lot harder to achieve in lego.
19:04:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm, yeah hard to calculate on
19:04:38 <alise> pi:1 is just irrational HAW HAW HAW HAWH AWH IUAWHE IUAWHIUSFODJGKLSHGVKRLEGJH KLSE OIFOISDGH KSHJDSFL;KJKG
19:05:16 <AnMaster> alise, it is just that it is easy to connect two 24:1 together, which gives you 576:1
19:05:41 <alise> slab serifs are lovely <3
19:06:01 <alise> I oughtta use Museo Slab for a reason
19:06:05 <alise> I oughtta use Museo Slab for something
19:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're going to talk about typography again, I'm afraid I'll have to leave.
19:08:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Then leave. People like you are why much modern text burns to look at.
19:08:34 <oklopol> yeah, idiots like you are the reason some people are still using non-monospace fonts
19:09:11 <pikhq> oklopol: CJK languages work best with monospace.
19:09:16 <Sgeo_> I think I'm going to watch some SG-1
19:09:21 <pikhq> Nay, *should not ever be anything but monospace*.
19:10:00 <pikhq> Vague grouping of Asian countries, including China, Japan, and Korea.
19:10:21 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:11:29 <pikhq> Been using monospace scripts forever.
19:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I am utterly indifferent to all matters typographical.
19:13:04 <pikhq> Utterly indifferent?
19:13:13 <pikhq> So you see nothing wrong with using nothing but MS Comic Sans?
19:15:10 <pikhq> oklopol is accusing typography nuts of keeping non-monospace fonts around.
19:15:39 * Sgeo_ goes to watch the SG-1 pilot
19:16:18 <pikhq> Let's be honest: most monospace fonts look... Odd.
19:17:27 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
19:17:36 <alise> just accept oklopol is crazy
19:17:40 <zzo38> I am using monospace for IRC
19:18:48 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
19:18:51 <uorygl> I am reading Wikipedia in a non-monospace font.
19:19:51 <zzo38> Maybe you can invent such a thing as non-monospace Befunge. However you should have to use always a specific spacing otherwise it won't work
19:20:10 <uorygl> Dispace Befunge. Every character has one of two widths.
19:20:34 <oklopol> i use monospace everywhere i can, but i don't know how to convert pdf's to it
19:20:41 <oklopol> maybe alise can help me with that
19:20:52 <uorygl> Why would you use monospace for Wikipedia?
19:21:05 <oklopol> so that it's easier to read
19:21:19 <oklopol> non-monospaced text is a pain to read
19:21:32 <pikhq> Uh... No, it's not?
19:21:45 <alise> <oklopol> maybe alise can help me with that
19:21:50 <alise> pikhq: oklopol does not have normal human anatomy
19:21:53 <uorygl> It's a pain to read if you're oklopol, it's not a pain to read if you're pikhq.
19:21:56 <pikhq> You're fucking kidding me.
19:22:09 <alise> pikhq just accept it
19:22:20 <oklopol> pikhq: i also like allcaps
19:22:34 <alise> OKLOPOL: ANYWAY YES PDFTOTEXT. ALSO, MAY I SAY,
19:22:36 <pikhq> oklopol: YOU DO NOT HAVE A NORMAL VISUAL CORTEX
19:22:36 <oklopol> if you used small allcaps, that would be better than non-allcaps
19:22:44 <alise> THAT IF YOU ARE EVER IN POSSESSION OF A MICROSOFT WORD DOCUMENT, AND DESIRE TO READ IT IN MONOSPACED TEXT,
19:22:55 <alise> OR WHATEVER IT IS CALLED
19:22:58 <alise> IT WILL PLEASE YOU MOST GREATLY.
19:23:40 <oklopol> i never use word documents but good to know
19:27:03 <oklopol> most letters are okay, but when i see an i, i throw up
19:27:25 <zzo38> I now added in screen-shots of the solitaire games http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/
19:28:53 <zzo38> oklopol: ALL-CAPS works better in mono-space than non-mono-space in my opinion
19:29:09 <oklopol> yes X works better in mono-space
19:29:36 <oerjan> zzo38: your Deadfish Forth interpreter is not bug-for-bug compatible
19:30:15 <zzo38> oerjan: You may be right. I haven't tried to make it bug-for-bug compatible, however. (But fix it if you want to)
19:30:24 <zzo38> (It is wiki, so of course someone can fix it!)
19:31:27 <oerjan> oklopol: the original deadfish (in C) was weird, and many of the interpreters try to preserve the strange behavior
19:31:57 <oerjan> i don't really know forth, alas
19:32:18 <oerjan> but i note there is no broken wrapping on 256 :D
19:32:27 <oerjan> (or any wrapping for that matter)
19:32:44 <zzo38> Not all the interpreters on that page preserve the strange behavior, but some might do so
19:32:55 <zzo38> oerjan: You are right about no wrapping, however.
19:33:01 <zzo38> But it is not difficult to fix
19:33:10 <zzo38> I can fix it if you wanted it fixed, I suppose
19:34:39 <zzo38> There is one program I write which does try to preserve the old strange behavior, called CZZT. It tries to preserve the old strange behavior of ZZT by trying to implement it in the similar way to how I imagine Tim Sweeney to have originally implemented it. (The original source-code for ZZT was written in Pascal, and has been lost. My copy is in C, although I try to implement Pascal-style strings and such)
19:35:27 -!- lament has joined.
19:37:53 <zzo38> There, now I have implemented the broken wrapping. Is OK now?
19:39:16 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:40:13 -!- jcp has joined.
19:40:26 <zzo38> Actually, it doesn't output a newline after each number either, but maybe it is supposed to do that too
19:41:27 <oerjan> well i consider exact I/O compatibility more optional
19:42:04 <zzo38> Yes, I am considering the same
19:42:09 <oerjan> (although i've tried to do it in the ones i made)
19:43:04 <zzo38> Which ones did you make?
19:43:53 <oerjan> haskell, perl, unlambda
19:47:54 <zzo38> This particular Forth code is for Gforth. (Other Forth systems might not support the 'i' 'd' constants, although they could be added in, the thing in Forth is that you can add in stuff like that!)
19:49:26 -!- cheater99 has joined.
19:49:28 <zzo38> Actually, some Forth systems are more minimal and there might be other things in this program it also doesn't support. However, any ANS-compliant Forth system should run it (possibly apart from the ' ' constants), since everything else in this program is ANS-compliant.
19:49:49 <zzo38> (Some non-ANS-compliant Forth systems might also run it)
19:50:08 <cheater99> my neighbor has introduced me to his friend's teen daughter
19:50:28 <zzo38> Hay! No cheating! Put the gloves like everyone else has to!
19:51:29 <cheater99> i'm definitely not wearing a glove with her
19:51:41 <cheater99> i want to feel every luscious square milimeter inside her
19:51:54 <zzo38> No, I mean the glove for mahjong
19:52:17 <cheater99> i definitely wouldn't play mahjongg with her
19:53:22 <cheater99> let's talk about encryption instead
19:54:02 <oerjan> cheater99: i think it's too late for you to start using encryption at this point
19:54:03 <cheater99> what's the longest password hash string you encounter when using the common algorithms?
19:54:30 <oerjan> well i guess it depends how old you are
19:55:14 <zzo38> HEXARC is a encryption algorithm that is like ARCFOUR however it run forward and backward simultaneously, uses initialization vectors, uses garbage data and propagation, and uses multiple passes (the number of passes is part of the password), and uses a 1000-bit key
19:55:32 * oerjan has this tendency to assume us by default
19:55:34 <cheater99> especially if her mom is an eastern european migrant who introduces me and then 10 minutes later remarks 'oh, then he's probably rich too!'
19:55:47 <cheater99> once that is said, she might as well be 12
19:56:37 <zzo38> (Actually, it uses a log2(256!) bit key)
19:58:21 <zzo38> Pictures of encryption algorithms?
19:58:33 <zzo38> How can you have pictures of that?
19:58:50 <oklopol> i've seen diagrams of sorts
19:58:54 <cheater99> he means 16-bit encryption algorithms
19:59:09 <cheater99> oklopol, look up the SELECT operator on wikipedia
19:59:14 <oerjan> zzo38: well that old one with twining papers around sticks seems pretty picturable
19:59:17 * pikhq is back on the Brainfuck compilation thing
19:59:38 <pikhq> This time, in Haskell, because optimising a parse tree is a bitch in C.
19:59:51 <pikhq> And just some pattern matching in Haskell.
19:59:56 <oklopol> cheater99: can you take pictures
19:59:57 <zzo38> oerjan: The ones with a physical process could have a photograph of the physical apparatus used to execute the encryption algorithm
20:01:20 <zzo38> I don't have a webcam on my computer, but if I did, I could use it to read QR codes. (I would also leave it unconnected while I am not using it, for at least two reasons)
20:01:26 <alise> pikhq: beat esotope
20:02:09 <pikhq> alise: Eventually, perhaps.
20:02:14 <zzo38> Is there anything in Linux you might be able to capture webcam pictures using a command such as: convert /dev/webcam out.jpg
20:02:27 <zzo38> (where "convert" is the ImageMagick convert command)
20:02:27 <pikhq> I intend to target assembly.
20:02:49 <pikhq> Because C compilers handle Brainfuck-compiled-to-C *poorly*.
20:03:04 <pikhq> Like, "load the pointer into a register for every instruction" poorly.
20:04:49 <alise> pikhq: target your own machine language
20:04:52 <alise> then compile that to asm
20:06:37 <alise> ais523: pikhq: how do you swap left and right audio channels in linux
20:06:49 <ais523> turn your computer upside-down
20:06:54 <ais523> (real answer: I don't know)
20:07:41 <ais523> zzo38: I don't know of anything like that, but it seems unlikely
20:07:49 <ais523> you would maybe have to write a kernel module specifically for that
20:08:23 <zzo38> ais523: Well, do you like this feature, if it were implemented?
20:08:30 <ais523> zzo38: yes, it's a clever idea
20:08:43 <ais523> I'm not sure how you use a webcam at all under Linux...
20:08:44 <alise> zzo38: you would like plan 9
20:09:05 <alise> i have to have my speakers wrong way around
20:09:07 <alise> due to cord length :D
20:09:09 <zzo38> Another feature I would like to use is something that allows you to copy to clipboard using a command such as: ls > /proc/X/9p/CLIPBOARD
20:09:12 <alise> so i need to swap the two channels
20:09:25 <ais523> alise: is it physically possible to swap the wire connections?
20:09:32 <ais523> or do you need a software solution?
20:09:39 <alise> ais523: only if i crack open the speakers
20:09:44 <alise> i know there is a software solution
20:09:44 <zzo38> I suppose it is always possible to swap the wire if you can cut the wires and stuff like that, at least.
20:09:46 <alise> i'm just not sure what it is
20:09:49 <ais523> (also, what's wrong with mirror-reflected sound? are you playing Pokémon or something?)
20:09:59 <alise> How can I tell ALSA to swap the left and right stereo channels on my soundcard?
20:09:59 <alise> Add this to your ~/.asoundrc file:
20:09:59 <alise> slave.pcm "cards.pcm.default"
20:10:07 <alise> do alsa settings still work for pulseaudio systems?
20:10:14 <alise> also, why do you need correct sound for pokemon?
20:10:23 <ais523> alise: because sounds come from the left if they're to do with your team
20:10:28 <ais523> or from the right to do with the opponent's
20:10:34 <ais523> it's very weird if you put your headphones on backwards
20:10:42 <alise> i always just use the little speaker
20:10:52 <ais523> you have to set the options for stereo sound, but that might be the default for all I know
20:11:13 <zzo38> Which generation of pokemon game did you mean?
20:11:19 <ais523> zzo38: all since second
20:11:32 <alise> ooh, we need The #esoteric Times
20:11:38 <pikhq> Currently, I've got the infrastructure for this set up, and for testing purposes, it just outputs Brainfuck after optimisations.
20:11:50 <ais523> optimising BF into BF?
20:11:58 <ais523> or into BF-plus-extra-instructions?
20:12:03 <zzo38> I have written optimize BF into BF in JavaScript.
20:12:25 <pikhq> ais523: Just BF. It's more a test to make sure my parser is correct than anything else.
20:12:32 <ais523> can anyone think of an obvious use for a BF pessimizer?
20:12:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Why the hell does google not search for non-alphanumerics??
20:12:45 <ais523> I can't, but if anyone can, it's us
20:12:55 <pikhq> Though it is quite nice for dealing with poorly auto-generated code.
20:13:01 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover, because they strip it before indexing
20:13:39 <zzo38> Some people might write code the "most pessimum" in order to make the speed correctly
20:14:05 <alise> How can I reverse my left and right speaker channels?
20:14:06 <alise> This is the same as "reverse stereo", where the left and right channels are to be swapped.
20:14:06 <alise> cat /proc/asound/cards and use the name string for the device you wish to use (the one in square brackets)
20:14:06 <alise> Edit /etc/pulse/default.pa and comment out module-hal-detect and module-detect lines.
20:14:07 <alise> Search for the commented-out line that starts "#load-module module-alsa-sink", uncomment it and change it to
20:14:10 <alise> load-module module-alsa-sink device=hw:[answer from step 0] channel_map=right,left
20:14:12 <alise> Restart the pulseaudio deamon by running pulseaudio -k; pulseaudio -D
20:14:38 <zzo38> Which probably shouldn't be done on modern computers however, except possibly if you are programming a GameBoy program or something like that, in which the CPU speed will always be the same way anyways
20:15:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: don't say that, he's probably trying to stalk me.
20:16:03 <alise> cheater99: lol, hi.
20:16:08 <alise> didn't you hate me or something
20:17:22 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/bgPQ
20:17:26 <pikhq> Now for a code generator!
20:17:29 <cheater99> you were totally my sweet, sweet bottom
20:19:35 <cheater99> btw, those taste very good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_melon
20:21:48 <alise> pikhq: too many newlines.
20:21:56 <alise> shitty if/else indentation; use | guards instead
20:22:43 <alise> does anyone know how to nuke pulseaudio so that my ubuntu box uses alsa. i am sick of this shit fo shur
20:23:40 <Deewiant> I'd do pretty (Add x:xs) = case compare x 0 of EQ -> ... LT -> ... GT -> ...
20:23:56 <pikhq> Hmm. Code generator's going to be annoying.
20:23:58 <alise> pretty (Add x:xs) | x < 0 = ...
20:24:38 <pikhq> Might work best with State.
20:24:49 <Deewiant> If x is a floating-point number all of those could be false ;-P
20:24:51 <alise> pikhq: I tell you: have your own intermediate language
20:24:55 <alise> Deewiant: It isn't
20:25:09 <pikhq> alise: Still need it for label generation.
20:25:10 <alise> yay i got my channels swapped
20:25:33 <alise> pikhq: yes, but you can do the important parts of machine code in some more functional part
20:25:39 <alise> then spit out asm and generate labels at the last stage
20:26:12 <Deewiant> Actually I'd do pretty (Add x:xs) = replicate x (if x < 0 then '-' else '+') : pretty xs
20:26:25 <pikhq> Deewiant: Changing.
20:28:41 <alise> "Transmission is a file sharing program. When you run a torrent, its data will be made available to others by means of upload. And of course, any content you share is your sole responsibility.
20:28:41 <alise> You probably knew this, so we won't tell you again."
20:29:44 <oklopol> cheater99: what's up is i'm reading stuff
20:31:40 <alise> Oh come on, torrent client
20:31:43 <alise> You can do better than that <3
20:38:31 <ais523> found via Reddit: http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=p&chd=t:85,15&chs=350x250&chdl=Resembles+Pacman|Does+not+resemble+Pacman&chp=.5&chco=ffff00,993365&chtt=Percentage+of+chart+which|resembles+Pacman
20:38:57 <alise> I need a Usenet provider...
20:39:10 <alise> we're talking... really, really old
20:39:20 <alise> like at least 4 years maybe?
20:39:23 <ais523> I'm wondering if it was an independent recreation of something old
20:39:37 <ais523> nothing there implied it hadn't just been made up a few seconds ago
20:39:43 <alise> http://img.moronail.net/img/1/2/12.jpg
20:39:44 <alise> http://www.newfunnypictures.net/data/media/4/Percentage%20of%20chart%20which%20resembles%20Pac-man.jpg
20:39:51 <alise> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2310739468_397d808a35.jpg?v=0
20:39:56 <alise> http://sixtostart.com/files/xmas08/ARGs%20Christmas.032.png
20:39:58 <ais523> I should use that in a presentation someday
20:40:04 <Phantom_Hoover> http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=p&chd=t:85,15&chs=350x250&chdl=Does+not+resemble+Pacman|Resembles+Pacman&chp=.5&chco=ffff00,993365&chtt=Percentage+of+chart+which|resembles+Pacman
20:40:13 <alise> another popular one is
20:40:18 <alise> http://www.seomfg.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/pie-i-have-eaten-chart.jpg
20:40:22 <alise> pie i have eaten vs pie i have not yet eaten
20:41:18 <ais523> also amusing in the discussion was an argument that someone hadn't misquoted Dijkstra properly
20:42:44 * alise installs Quod Libet
20:43:11 <alise> leonard nemoy has a twitter account.
20:46:24 <alise> http://pgraycode.wordpress.com/2010/05/29/raptors/
20:47:33 <cheater99> I THINK YOU MEAN LEONARD NIMOY ALISE
20:47:56 <alise> Here comes the FURY
20:48:13 <zzo38> I have seen a variant of that "percentage of chart which resembles Pac-man"
20:48:46 <Phantom_Hoover> This just goes to show that psychology in general is stupid
20:51:37 -!- tombom has joined.
20:52:07 <cheater99> He has written two autobiographies, I Am Not Spock (1975) and I Am Spock (1995).
20:52:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: and here i was hoping the typo was accurate
20:52:53 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover, the typo just proves your shrink's point.
20:53:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Typos are due to my fingers not hitting the key hard enough.
20:53:38 <pikhq> Also, punctuation is a good thing. Use it.
20:53:42 <alise> That's better; 232 KiB/s.
20:54:11 <ais523> anyone else here watching Eurovision?
20:54:13 <oerjan> i dont need no stinking punctuation asshole
20:54:41 <HackEgo> 72|<ehird> ignore me, i'm full of bullshit
20:54:54 <HackEgo> 4|<lament> i read paths as penis :(
20:54:57 <HackEgo> 86|<ehird> Evolution is awful, awful, awful
20:55:00 <HackEgo> 128|<Slereah> I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love
20:55:03 <HackEgo> 141|<songhead95> think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat
20:55:16 <HackEgo> 55|<Dylan> kaelis: yes kaelis, but however will get the horses to wear knickers?
20:55:24 <HackEgo> 125|Note that quote number 124 is not actually true.
20:55:30 <alise> can you stream eurovision online live? :P
20:55:33 <HackEgo> 124|<Warrigal> I cannot eat meat that isn't flat.
20:55:39 <HackEgo> 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
20:55:45 <ais523> the only TV channel I stream regularly is ITV
20:55:48 <HackEgo> 123|[Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :(
20:55:53 <ais523> because it's broken on the actual TV here
20:55:54 <alise> ais523: because you're too principled to tune in to it?
20:56:07 <alise> I tend not to watch ITV at all because it's shit
20:56:13 <ais523> alise: mostly, I agree
20:56:24 <ais523> but I tend to like the sort of vapid and pointless quiz shows that they put on sometimes
20:56:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: go on...
20:56:34 <alise> ais523: channel 4 tends to have enough quiz shows
20:56:49 <alise> Okay, I will admit to occasionally watching TV Burp...
20:56:50 <ais523> 5 used to, but it stopped years ago
20:56:58 <alise> yeah Five is pretty awful
20:57:04 <alise> just 5,000 rubbish american shows
20:57:15 <ais523> I'm annoyed at Channel 5, it was my favourite channel when it first came out
20:57:21 <ais523> but went more and more downhill as time went on
20:57:21 <alise> It's called Five now :P
20:57:30 <ais523> but I refuse to acknowledge it
20:57:45 <alise> BBC One is officially called "BBC one" now, isn't it?
20:57:47 <alise> Or something of that sort
20:57:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm trying to think of something to shout "FIGHT" about, but I can't.
20:57:58 <pikhq> 5,000 channels of rubbish American shows.
20:58:00 <alise> pikhq: No, thank you!
20:58:05 <alise> ais523: ah, no, it's changed from BBC1 to BBC One
20:58:10 <ais523> pikhq: I could pick up many of the larger US TV channels from Canada
20:58:16 <oerjan> ais523: you're on proggit
20:58:17 <ais523> but concluded I didn't have enough of a reason to
20:58:23 <ais523> oerjan: I noticed, comex told me
20:58:23 <pikhq> By "try" I mean "look at and then DESTROY your TV"
20:58:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I like US TV, and I like Five. But which is better?
20:58:30 <alise> I like BBC Two a lot.
20:58:40 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You... *Like* this shit?
20:58:42 <alise> BBC Two + Channel 4 = pretty much all TV worth watching
20:58:45 <alise> pikhq: He's joking.
20:58:47 <coppro> The CBC's okay, and that's about i
20:58:58 <alise> YOU FORGOT PBS LOL
20:59:05 <alise> 534 KiB/s on a torrent
20:59:08 <ais523> coppro: I was watching CBC News when I got bored of BBC World Service
20:59:13 <pikhq> I'm convinced that most of US television is designed in order to enact war against the rest of the world.
20:59:17 <alise> I am feeling happy in my special place now
20:59:21 <ais523> *BBC World News, they renamed it
20:59:31 <alise> ais523: does it not carry non-news programs any more?
20:59:42 <oerjan> ais523: notice the top reddit comment :D
20:59:49 <ais523> alise: it carries some programs which only tenuously fit into the definition of "news"
21:00:13 <ais523> oerjan: the one about Wolfram?
21:00:17 <alise> ais523: so basically you can only legally watch BBC television programs abroad by purchasing DVD sets?
21:00:22 <alise> you can't use iPlayer, they don't broadcast it...
21:00:27 <ais523> I can't tell if that's a parody or an accurate quote
21:00:38 <alise> WTF, someone reposted that again
21:00:45 <ais523> alise: not a repost, it's a first post
21:00:49 <alise> "I'm impressed that an undergrad did the proof. That's very impressive."
21:00:58 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:00:59 <pikhq> Which is a corporation which has simply gotten a license to the BBC name and BBC shows.
21:00:59 <alise> "Euclid didn't even get a high-school diploma" umm...
21:01:02 <ais523> reddit missed it somehow
21:01:19 <alise> why doesn't BBCA count?
21:01:47 <pikhq> alise: It's just another normal US TV channel, which *happens* to have a license to BBC shows.
21:01:49 <alise> ais523: I'm sorry how Wolfram has tarnished your name
21:01:58 <ais523> I don't think he has, really
21:02:01 <alise> everyone upon seeing alex smith in the future will go "oh, he's the guy who proved wolfram's kooky thing"
21:02:06 <alise> Well... "A New Kind of Pseudoscience, now with more megalomania. Your taste buds cannot repel flavor of this magnitude."
21:02:09 <ais523> there's a huge amount of vitriol for him and feeling sorry for me, on most of the fora about it
21:02:12 <alise> "I love how even in praising the undegrad student's work, Wolfram takes credit for himself, even though he had little if anything to do with it:" ++
21:02:23 <alise> ais523: didn't the $20k just go to living expenses?
21:02:41 <ais523> alise: for about 3 years, it's served me well
21:02:53 <alise> ais523: you don't seem to be living rather richly :P
21:03:02 <ais523> I don't particularly want to live richly
21:03:02 <alise> but yes, good point
21:03:43 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/c99c3/the_prize_is_won_the_simplest_universal_turing/
21:03:47 <ais523> nowadays I have a salary, but it's too low to trip any of the tax or loan repayment thresholds yet
21:03:58 <ais523> yet simultaneously it's more money than I can easily imagine
21:03:58 <alise> "The problem with this proof is that it's incorrect. There was a long discussion regarding the correctness of the proof at http://cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2007-October/012156.html; Dr. Vaughn Pratt has stated that generating the Turing instructions as described is analogous to a linearly bound automaton."
21:04:06 <alise> ais523: oh, oh, please give me some text to rebut him with!
21:04:08 <oerjan> "Euclid didn't even get a high-school diploma"
21:05:05 <ais523> alise: there was an initial high-profile complaint by him that was based on incorrect assumptions, which he later retracted; then an argument about something tangential that I lost badly; then some valid concerns about the definitions of the thing in the first place, an argument that never finished because the moderator went on holiday. There's a proof there, but nobody seems entirely certain what it is that I proved
21:05:10 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/c99c3/the_prize_is_won_the_simplest_universal_turing/c0r088g
21:05:25 <alise> ais523: shall I say that you said that or sth?
21:05:42 <ais523> if you like, I don't know if people will believe you...
21:05:58 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:09:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: heh, that runs into some of the same definitional problems my proof does
21:09:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: so to speak. it has some similar issues to ais523's TM, but not as strong iiuc
21:09:35 <ais523> but with a definition in which the 2,3 machine is TC, rule 110 is also TC
21:10:01 <oerjan> (rule 110's setup is periodic in each direction iirc)
21:10:04 <ais523> the only thing he did was discover it, and advertise beyond the limits of sanity
21:10:07 <ais523> but at least he did discover it
21:10:22 <ais523> it was funny seeing #esoteric disappointed that someone had solved it and it wasn't one of them
21:10:27 <ais523> and they took a bit of convincing to start with
21:10:41 <zzo38> Do you like this cardset? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/screen/spider-tarot-cardset.png
21:10:53 <ais523> I have to thank the channel for introducing the problem to me in the first place, it was in the topic
21:11:04 <oerjan> i noticed someone later proved that Rule 110 is P-complete, which means it definitely has _some_ computational content
21:11:38 <oerjan> (that's for predicting n generations ahead, not infinite computation)
21:11:48 <ais523> P-complete's something like 6 or 7 computational classes lower than TC, isn't it?
21:11:58 <ais523> (assuming you mean P as in P=NP, rather than PSPACE)
21:11:59 <oerjan> it's a complexity class
21:12:15 <ais523> IMO, all the complexity classes are lower than all the mainstream computational classes
21:12:19 <ais523> and on the same large scale
21:12:46 <ais523> you can think of a general FSM, being the lowest useful computational class, as the highest complexity class
21:12:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, is it possible for the Reimann Hypothesis to be undecidable?
21:13:19 <ais523> if it was provably undecidable, then you've proved it can't be shown true or false
21:13:32 <ais523> if you prove it can't be shown false, then you've proved there are no counterexamples, as a counterexample would prove it false
21:13:41 <ais523> thus in such a case it must be true, which is a contradiction
21:14:13 <oerjan> ais523: btw you looked at tag stuff didn't you? iiuc the essential part of the P-complete proof was to show you could simulate turing machines in tag systems more efficiently than using unary (i think it was quadratic size)
21:14:14 <ais523> I'm not sure if it can be unprovably undecidable
21:14:33 <ais523> oerjan: not really, I used the pre-existing result that cyclic tag was TC, but that was about it
21:14:59 <oerjan> ais523: well then it might apply to that TM too, perhaps
21:15:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm trying to figure out what undecidable undecidability would even mean
21:16:00 -!- ais523 has changed nick to undecidable.
21:16:07 <undecidable> sorry, need this in my tab-complete to make typing easier...
21:16:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it runs into the same problems as undecidability.
21:16:28 <undecidable> undecidable: either an assumption that something's true, or that it's false, leads to no contradiction
21:17:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Since a counterexample would prove its undecidability to also be decidable.
21:17:17 <undecidable> so if it's undecidable that something's undecidable, then assuming that something's true or false leads to no contradiction; and assuming that it can't be safely assumed both true and false also leads to no contradiction
21:17:22 <undecidable> and as far as I can tell, that's a contradiction
21:17:24 <oerjan> undecidable: FSM is regular languages isn't it? that's one of the _lowest_ useful complexity classes, not the highest
21:17:45 -!- undecidable has changed nick to ais523.
21:17:52 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
21:18:02 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, I was thinking in terms of an FSM which scaled to the problem
21:18:15 <ais523> which leads to definitional problems along the lines of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Formula
21:18:22 <ais523> or, for that matter, confusion with an LBA
21:19:47 <oerjan> that doesn't sound very well-defined, no
21:20:00 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: finite state machine, i thought
21:20:07 <ais523> I do that sort of thing all the time...
21:20:36 <oklopol> X is P complete means X is in P and any problem in P can be reduced to X with reduction what?
21:20:50 <oerjan> oklopol: logspace-reduction, mostly
21:21:16 <AnMaster> what is the difference between a FSM and a FSA?
21:21:25 <oerjan> although i've recently heard there's an even weaker reduction they sometimes use
21:21:32 <AnMaster> (or is that "an"?, after all it is pronounced as the letters...)
21:21:33 <Deewiant> One's an M and the other's an A
21:21:45 <oerjan> (logtime something, i'm not sure what it is)
21:21:59 <AnMaster> finite state automaton and finite state machine
21:22:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it's obvious that the lowest computational class is something like a bric.
21:23:04 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe you can give an useful answer there, you tend to be able
21:23:18 <ais523> AnMaster: IIRC they're the same
21:23:23 <ais523> or same enough that it makes no difference
21:24:11 <oerjan> oklopol: logspace is my favorite complexity class, i think, despite being rather low
21:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So all of our computers are basically glorified regex parsers?
21:24:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You realize that this is the kind of thing that can be solved by looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSM and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSA
21:24:58 <oerjan> i just recently found the proof you can do most arithmetic in it (although the proof was strengthened even further to some even weaker class)
21:25:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would require opening a browser
21:25:32 <oerjan> it's surprisingly subtle how to do division
21:26:01 <AnMaster> logically asking on irc is thus better. Plus it gives some fun answers along the way
21:26:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: clearly you could write a regex containing every possible internal state of the computer as alternatives
21:26:11 <ais523> not that that would be particularly sensible
21:26:19 <Deewiant> I consider opening a browser less trouble than asking on IRC
21:26:27 <ais523> Deewiant: for me it's the other way round
21:26:37 <AnMaster> I have to agree with ais523 here
21:26:37 <oerjan> oklopol: yes that's the easiest one. multiplying _two_ numbers is also easy.
21:26:42 <ais523> I feel disappointed when I have to get the Web involved, especially a site I've never visited
21:26:52 <Deewiant> If you're browser-challenged, I'll spoil it for you: FSM = FSA
21:26:56 <ais523> cheater99: you get an amount of memory to do your calculation proportional to the logarithm of the size of the input
21:27:01 <oerjan> cheater99: O(log n) workspace use
21:27:03 <AnMaster> ais523, btw can you tell us about that esolang thing at uni you ran across
21:27:09 -!- uoryfon has joined.
21:27:10 <AnMaster> that you didn't want to ask about some days ago
21:27:19 <AnMaster> ais523, or is it still secret?
21:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It has bothered me for a long time that I don't understand O notation.
21:27:33 <cheater99> oerjan, is ais523's definition equivalent?
21:27:51 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: you still don't you mean?
21:27:55 <oerjan> oklopol: multiplying _n_ numbers was a key ingredient in the proof i found
21:27:56 <ais523> basically, in Sutherland's event logic, there are six basic circuits, plus wires and forking wires, that describe a mathematically useful subset of asynchronous circuits
21:28:07 <ais523> in recent research, we found that three of them were not necessary
21:28:39 <AnMaster> ais523, ah interesting. Not necessary in the same sense as "you can do with only nand, but it is quite a pain to do that"?
21:28:58 <ais523> and we're trying to work out if one of the remaining five circuits, which seems rather complex, is expressible in terms of the other four
21:29:01 <ais523> I think I've proved it's impossible
21:29:43 <AnMaster> ais523, can it be expressed in terms of one of the ones you proved not required? to get another "minimal" subset?
21:29:52 <oklopol> O(g(n)) is the set of function f for which there are n_0 >= 0 and a > 0 such that f(n) <= a * g(n) when n >= n_0, so f(n) is in O(g(n)) means that from some point on (n_0) f(n) is smaller than some multiple of g(n) (which has to be the same for all n)
21:29:55 <ais523> probably, but they're even more complicated
21:30:14 -!- uoryfon has quit (Client Quit).
21:30:44 <alise> ais523: posted what you said
21:31:08 <AnMaster> ais523, and how does this tie into esolangs?
21:31:50 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and "Sutherland event logic" seems to not give many useful google results for me
21:31:51 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: does that make any sense? i tried to use letters with no well-known meanings.
21:31:52 <alise> <ais523> if it was provably undecidable, then you've proved it can't be shown true or false
21:31:57 <alise> that's not what undecidable means
21:32:06 <alise> undecidable = no algorithm can decide
21:32:11 <alise> independent = cannot be proved true or false from axioms
21:32:48 <AnMaster> alise, the former implies the latter though.
21:32:53 <alise> also ais523 what about RE
21:33:04 <alise> is that lower than a turing machin?
21:33:14 <alise> it contains the halting problem
21:33:30 <AnMaster> alise, afaik RE is less capable than an UTC
21:33:39 <alise> R = RE intersect co-RE
21:33:57 <alise> RE and co-RE are strictly bigger
21:34:08 <oklopol> RE is the set of languages that are accepted by turing machines; this includes the language of turing machines that halt
21:34:10 <ais523> AnMaster: Sutherland event logic is rather esolangish in its own right
21:34:13 <alise> recursively enumerable
21:34:18 <AnMaster> I'm starting to wonder that too. Thought RE was the regular languages
21:34:29 <alise> well true TMs will "run" RE
21:34:31 <AnMaster> alise, okay so what do you abbrev regular languages to?
21:34:33 <alise> but R is all the problems they can SOLVE
21:34:36 <alise> AnMaster: "regular"
21:34:44 <AnMaster> alise, seen RE used for it, pretty sure
21:35:06 <AnMaster> might not have been a mathematician of course
21:35:06 <alise> In computational complexity theory, R is the class of decision problems solvable by a Turing machine, which is the set of all recursive languages. R is often identified with the class of 'effectively computable' functions (the Church-Turing thesis).
21:35:09 <alise> oklopol: i don't ^
21:35:18 <alise> proof by wikipedia
21:35:34 <coppro> the margin is too narrow to contain my refutation of your proof
21:35:45 <oklopol> R is the set of languages that are accepted by turing machines that always halt
21:35:52 <alise> "I have a truly marvellous proof of this, but I'm sure you can all work it out."
21:36:01 <alise> oklopol: well yeah i'm talking in terms of decision problems
21:36:06 <alise> if you don't halt you haven't solved a decision problem
21:36:25 <oklopol> alise: i doubt AnMaster has seen RE used for regulars
21:36:35 <ais523> the Church-Turing thesis is ridiculous, I've seen about 20 different definitions of it, ranging from obviously true to clearly a matter of philosophy to right outside the scope of mathematics
21:36:38 <oklopol> i don't doubt "<alise> but R is all the problems they can SOLVE"
21:36:49 <oklopol> that's as true as it can be
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21:38:03 <alise> ais523: my definition of the church-turing thesis: Imagine a universe with the same physics as our own, but infinitely large. Imagine that this universe contains machines with actual physical infinite tapes. The Church-Turing thesis states that any computation done in this universe can be done by a universal Turing machine.
21:38:17 <alise> even that's a bit vague
21:39:17 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:39:32 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the original definition of it?
21:39:52 <AnMaster> ais523, it might be worth checking that
21:40:09 <alise> AnMaster: just "real-world computation can be done with the lambda-calculus"
21:40:15 <alise> which is hopelessly vague
21:40:20 <alise> wow, what a rubbish .nfo
21:40:29 <alise> it doesn't contain any text at all apart from the filled-in fields
21:40:48 <AnMaster> isn't that something used by MS system info thingy?
21:40:49 <alise> AnMaster: what the scene uses to give information about a release and diss other groups and shit
21:40:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:40:54 <alise> and talk about how great they are for doing it
21:41:23 <AnMaster> "On Microsoft Windows, the NFO filename extension is associated with a Microsoft software tool called System Information."
21:41:43 <alise> meh, sceners came first
21:41:45 <alise> they're just text files
21:42:17 <Sgeo_> scene? Somehow, I don't think you're talking about the demoscene
21:42:26 <alise> The demoscene is an offshoot of the scene.
21:42:36 <alise> (Cracked software always included a masturbatory demo at the start.)
21:42:40 <AnMaster> alise, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia-nfo.png <-- wikipedia is really self centered eh?
21:42:46 <alise> (Then they got so extravagant that they didn't need software accompanying them.)
21:42:51 <AnMaster> that's the example of an nfo file
21:42:54 <oklopol> so, if some physical constants happened to be uncomputable by a turing machine, but we could approximate them arbitrarily far with some sort of physical measurements, would you consider the church-turing to be wrong?
21:42:57 <AnMaster> in the article about nfo files
21:42:59 <alise> AnMaster: yeah wikipedia never talk about anything else in their examples
21:43:09 <alise> oklopol: well... abstract computation
21:43:17 <alise> i.e. computation that only uses some finitely specifiable input
21:43:22 <alise> so... anything that just takes a natural basically
21:43:31 <oklopol> alise: i'm not finding a counterexample to yours, i'm asking a question
21:43:34 <alise> I guess if it's quantum...
21:43:40 <alise> oklopol: then no, because it takes non-natural input
21:43:44 <alise> what about quantum computers
21:43:47 <alise> can they take non-natural input?
21:44:24 <oklopol> basically we have a physical machine that outputs a number no turing machine can
21:44:31 <AnMaster> alise, what exactly is abstract computation then
21:44:33 <alise> finitely-specifiable input = finite list of naturals = natural
21:44:44 <alise> oklopol: you're not allowed IO devices like that
21:45:00 <alise> natural in, natural out, nothing inbetween
21:45:06 <AnMaster> alise, I can imagine you could measure some constants using the system clock and measuring delay in yourself
21:45:07 <alise> AnMaster: i'm defining it as we go right now!
21:45:15 <alise> abstract, remember
21:45:31 <oklopol> alise: the guy whose book i was reading (just first chapter had philosophy :P) thought this would *not* be a counterexample, and i'd agree
21:45:46 <alise> Well... alternatively, here's a very precise, very strong version of the CT thesis:
21:46:01 <alise> Super-Turing computation is impossible in every consistent universe.
21:46:14 <alise> i.e., Super-Turing computation is inherently inconsistent.
21:46:21 <AnMaster> alise, if it has no clock and is async you can use it to measure delay due to temperature differences in different parts of the circuit if built the right way I think
21:47:03 <AnMaster> at least you could measure them in terms of other ones
21:47:25 <ais523> alise: btw, how mad am I for changing my own nick just so I could use it to tab-complete a word?
21:48:41 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, if it has no clock and is async you can use it to measure delay due to temperature differences in different parts of the circuit if built the right way I think
21:48:47 <alise> you appear to misunderstand the word "abstract"
21:49:11 <alise> <alise> Super-Turing computation is impossible in every consistent universe.
21:49:11 <alise> <alise> i.e., Super-Turing computation is inherently inconsistent.
21:49:13 <ais523> what if it has no clock and /isn't/ async?
21:49:14 <alise> actually I think I believe this
21:49:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
21:50:56 <zzo38> Why are there CTRL+H characters around the "<" "alise" ">"
21:51:32 <alise> XChat copied the colours.
21:51:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Computation stronger than a UTM.
21:51:43 <AnMaster> <alise> you appear to misunderstand the word "abstract" <-- that is because you haven't defined it in an useful way
21:51:50 <AnMaster> <alise> <alise> Super-Turing computation is impossible in every consistent universe.
21:51:50 <AnMaster> <alise> <alise> i.e., Super-Turing computation is inherently inconsistent.
21:52:05 <AnMaster> it doesn't prove it, it just defines it
21:52:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, banana scheme for example
21:52:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No?
21:52:38 <zzo38> Some of things in esolang wiki are super Turing, and uncomputable
21:52:46 <alise> For instance, a Turing-machine oracle.
21:53:32 <alise> It can decide a statement of the form (forall n : exists m : P(n,m)) where the variables range over natural numbers
21:53:37 <alise> (A super-Turing machine)
21:53:42 <alise> Well, at least, one with a TM oracle
21:54:07 <AnMaster> "TwoDucks is an esoteric programming language by User:Zzo38 which allows you to go back in time and change things. It is uncomputable on a Turing machine; it even allows you to solve the halting problem. "
21:54:13 <AnMaster> from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/TwoDucks
21:54:39 <zzo38> Hyper Set Language is certainly inconsistent, since a code to implement Russell paradox can be written with it
21:54:39 <AnMaster> if that claim is true then it seems pretty certain it is superturing
21:55:25 <Phantom_Hoover> So if super-Turing inconsistency is true, FTL travel is impossible?
21:56:04 <zzo38> What is the relation?
21:56:09 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:56:18 <uorygl> FTL travel, according to relativity and stuff, allows sending information back in time.
21:56:32 <zzo38> not=({0}!(0.0))|(0.1); element_of={[<#]&>#;not/(not/@)}; Russell={[0.#;1.0]/(element_of/(#.#))}\*;
21:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> If you can violate causality, you can build a TwoDucks interpreter.
21:56:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what about storage space
21:57:06 <AnMaster> you would need infinite of that as well
21:57:29 <uorygl> As far as I can tell, quantum computing with a wormhole gate (i.e. it outputs a value, then later takes that value as input) is perfectly consistent.
21:57:49 <zzo38> There can still be quantum entanglements which can affect things, however it cannot be used for anything that can be received information it does still has to be the limited by speed of light
21:58:02 <AnMaster> uorygl, hm now you made me imagine implementing a nand gate or such with a wormhole
21:58:16 <uorygl> How would the wormhole be useful?
21:58:43 <AnMaster> uorygl, I don't know enough physics
21:58:48 <AnMaster> it just sounds like a cool idea
21:58:54 <zzo38> Yes, can you implemented NAND gates by wormholes?
21:59:11 <zzo38> It would require a lot of energy to create wormholes anyways, if it can possibly work
21:59:17 <AnMaster> also, I'm sure Hollywood could :P
22:04:31 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
22:04:53 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Client Quit).
22:05:04 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:05:15 <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with people joining and then leaving immediately,
22:05:59 <zzo38> Perhaps testing purposes?
22:06:23 <alise> Fun fact: mass noun is a mass noun.
22:06:30 <alise> "I destroyed all the mass noun in the dictionary."
22:07:21 <zzo38> Why did you do that?
22:07:55 <alise> No, it is a mass noun!
22:08:07 <alise> Mass noun are all mass noun; and mass noun is a mass noun.
22:08:19 <alise> Yes! That is valid!
22:08:23 <AnMaster> if it is a mass noun you couldn't say "a mass noun"
22:08:35 <alise> What's the one where "Xs" is invalid because it's just "X"
22:08:39 <alise> "a sheep" is still valid
22:08:54 <Phantom_Hoover> That's just when the plural and the singular are the same.
22:09:03 <alise> No fancy name? Aww.
22:09:06 <AnMaster> and that isn't the case for "mass noun" either
22:09:24 <AnMaster> since it is "mass nouns" in plural
22:09:52 <zzo38> There is stuff on Wikipedia about "Mass noun" I checked
22:11:57 <AnMaster> I think I heard that in some dialects in UK "sheep" does have a plural form different from the singular form
22:12:09 <alise> ais523: what is a Fragment anyway?
22:12:12 <AnMaster> or it might have been archaic, or dialectal _and_ archaic
22:12:16 <alise> AnMaster: sheeple!
22:12:33 <AnMaster> alise, sounds like something you use to bind paper together ;P
22:12:52 <alise> pulseaudio does not like two sounds playing at once lol
22:12:56 <alise> remind me to unpack my mac asap
22:13:07 <alise> AnMaster: congrats you have the perfect soundcard + configuration
22:13:09 <AnMaster> alise, both on laptop and desktop
22:13:14 <alise> AnMaster: how's that latency like
22:13:18 <AnMaster> alise, my laptop has intel hd audio
22:13:23 <alise> pulseaudio's lag isn't called latency
22:13:28 <alise> it's called the waiting room
22:13:37 <alise> you can have a nice sit down and a cup of tea while it's going
22:13:40 <AnMaster> alise, as for the latency, nothing noticeable
22:13:46 <zzo38> Today I will play pinball game
22:13:57 <AnMaster> alise, so I think you must be unlucky
22:14:08 <AnMaster> alise, of course on my desktop I _do_ have the perfect sound card
22:14:33 <alise> pulseaudio has the flaw of not actually doing anything useful
22:14:39 <AnMaster> and there I don't use pulseaudio anyway
22:15:08 <alise> If I had the patience to set it all up I'd use OSSv4.
22:15:09 <AnMaster> alise, anyway on my laptop with intel hd audio, playing multiple sounds at once with pulseaudio works
22:15:14 <AnMaster> not that I tend to do it often
22:15:57 * alise 's audio pauses for a few seconds
22:16:04 <alise> remind me not to scroll on a page with flash animations while using pulseaudio
22:16:20 <alise> admittedly it is a highly obnoxious flash ad that would play audio if i let it
22:16:25 <AnMaster> alise, what sort of shitty cpu?
22:16:45 <alise> no, actually, amd athlon 64 x2
22:16:57 <Deewiant> Of the three things I've tried (alsa, alsa + dmix, pulseaudio) pulseaudio works the best for me (but still not optimally)
22:17:01 <AnMaster> alise, that is dual core isn't it?
22:17:08 <alise> Deewiant: but pulseaudio /goes/ /through/ /alsa/...
22:17:16 <alise> AnMaster: it's because linux is shit :D
22:17:30 <AnMaster> alise, actually, I use linux and it doesn't happen for me
22:17:30 <Deewiant> alise: I don't really know/care about how it works, just saying that it does
22:17:31 <alise> everything was just fine until i plugged in speakers!
22:17:42 <AnMaster> alise, so I would suggest it is not the fault of linux
22:17:48 <zzo38> How good are you flipperless pinball game?
22:17:55 <AnMaster> alise, this is on ubuntu jaunty
22:17:57 <alise> actually it is, linux's fault is having unpredictable problems between perfectly fine hardware
22:18:03 <alise> if it works, you're lucky! who the fuck knows why!
22:18:15 <AnMaster> alise, so does mac. It only works on a few products
22:18:22 <alise> yes but at least you know what to buy.
22:18:31 <AnMaster> alise, okay for linux, buy IBM thinkpads
22:18:39 <alise> "Oh yeah this hardware works GREAT with linux" [buys it] "Actually, no it doesn't."
22:18:49 <alise> AnMaster: desktop?
22:18:49 <AnMaster> alise, oh and with recent kernels the wlan issues went away
22:18:52 <alise> don't say "make your own"
22:18:57 <Deewiant> The only issue I have with pulseaudio is that mplayer gets stuck if I pause it and then resume; I have to seek a bit (typically multiple times) to get it to unpause
22:19:15 <alise> AnMaster: because Everyone Else Has Better Things To Do
22:19:26 <alise> like trying to get linux to work :D
22:19:27 <AnMaster> alise, it takes, like, an hour once the components arrived
22:19:39 <alise> I'll just tell my mother that, brb
22:19:42 <AnMaster> alise, also I know someone with a perfect linux desktop apart from sound level
22:19:50 <alise> Actually, no I won't, because she'd laugh.
22:20:18 <alise> AnMaster: that's nice, how much money do they have?
22:20:25 <AnMaster> total used free shared buffers cached
22:20:28 <alise> even I don't consider buying multiple xenons.
22:20:56 <alise> AnMaster: are you counting hyperthreading "cores" there?
22:21:03 <alise> admittedly they're close to being extra cores, but still
22:21:23 <alise> yes, almost certainly.
22:21:31 <alise> 8 cpus is just two xenons, then
22:21:37 <alise> so what, $2,000 for the cpus.
22:21:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:22:00 <AnMaster> I think it is quad cores. Each with two hyperthreads
22:22:06 <AnMaster> model name: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5520 @ 2.27GHz
22:22:13 <AnMaster> you could look that up on intel.com
22:22:26 <alise> ok so one of the low end ones then :-)
22:22:34 <alise> in fact the lowest cpu speed you can get in a Nehalem
22:22:44 <AnMaster> alise, probably, it can compile the linux kernel in about 1 minute still
22:22:45 <alise> at least a Xenon/i7
22:22:48 <alise> Nehalem is a nice name for them, why don't people call them Nehalem more
22:22:55 <alise> why did they introduce i3/i5, before you could say Nehalem to mean i7/Xenon
22:23:00 <cheater99> if someone has 100 people on their friends list on fcebook and each person has on average 100 people on their list as well, that's 10000 people in your extended network
22:23:17 <cheater99> but i would say only up to 60% of those are unique
22:23:20 <alise> cheater99: and if each one of those has 100 friends, your totally-extended network is infinitely big
22:23:21 <AnMaster> alise, also it is a server board. Has IMPI and stuff
22:23:29 <alise> Deewiant: *Xeon, oops.
22:23:42 <alise> Deewiant: Nehalem Xeon = i7 + multi-CPU support + ECC support + $500 or more extra
22:23:44 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I bet your system can't compile the linux kernel in 1 minute and 2 seconds.
22:23:50 <AnMaster> which is the stats I saw for that system
22:23:53 <alise> SgeoN1: ...excrement
22:23:56 <cheater99> alise: yes, but we're talking about a real population, so it's going to start duplicating real quick
22:24:02 <Deewiant> I just thought the Xeons had a separate arch
22:24:10 <HackEgo> 164|<DoctorDog> I am an inherently pornographic being.
22:24:14 <HackEgo> 92|<oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
22:24:16 <alise> Deewiant: nope, never had
22:24:19 <HackEgo> 52|<ehird> Apple = Windows.
22:24:27 <HackEgo> 59|<Dylan> actually, I pretended to be a hobo to get directions
22:24:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I've even forgotten.
22:24:41 <HackEgo> 118|<apollo> Actually, he still looks like he'd rather eat her than have sex with her.
22:24:45 <alise> Deewiant: IT WILL STAY NESTED FOREVER HAHAHAHAHAHA
22:24:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also it seems to have 8 MB L2 cache per core?
22:25:05 <alise> they have 512KiB of L2 per core
22:25:14 <alise> (core = 2 hyperthreads here)
22:25:22 <AnMaster> a bit hard to tell from /proc/cpuinfo
22:25:30 <alise> so how do I get an account
22:25:38 <alise> i built bsmntbombdood an almost-as-good system
22:25:42 <alise> well only one cpu, but more ram
22:25:45 <AnMaster> alise, on there? You don't. You have to be a friend of this guy.
22:25:48 <Deewiant> I don't think /proc/cpuinfo has the info in that detail
22:25:55 <alise> so I'll just ask bsmntbombdood to do my compilations and shit :P
22:26:16 <cheater99> i wonder.... if you have a set of N vertices, and the set of all connected graphs on them, then what is the statistical distribution of the value of percentage of duplication of second- and third-friends, sampled across all graphs and all vertices
22:26:20 <Deewiant> It just lists the cache a core has access to, but doesn't explain how it's shared between others
22:26:23 <AnMaster> alise, I use this to do huge panorama stitching that swap trashes all my computers
22:26:34 <AnMaster> of course it takes ages to scp the files. transatlantic
22:26:45 <alise> ...so how do I become a friend with this guy, what kind of personality does he have.
22:27:12 <alise> Wow, Dettol have introduced a No-Touch Hand Wash System.
22:27:14 <AnMaster> alise, a personality like mine
22:27:20 <alise> "Never touch a germy soap pump again"
22:27:27 <alise> What will the immune systems of our next generation be like?!
22:27:31 <alise> Will they even HAVE any?!
22:27:36 <AnMaster> alise, we have the same kind of view on user interface and such
22:27:43 <alise> AnMaster: well I'm not going that far, sorry.
22:28:29 <alise> oh well, I'll just bask in the knowledge that I came up with all the components to a proven-really-fast system without ever having assembled a computer before or even coming up with a full list of parts.
22:28:32 <alise> clearly, i am a natural.
22:29:25 <AnMaster> alise, that is the important bit
22:29:26 <alise> no... but that /is/ the easy part.
22:29:34 <alise> hey, all the components worked perfectly.
22:29:38 <alise> and with bsd/linux
22:29:39 <AnMaster> alise, ever messed with thermal paste?
22:29:44 <Deewiant> Depends on how many components you have and how small your case is ;-P
22:29:47 <alise> AnMaster: used the heat sink it came with :p
22:29:53 <alise> although he's replacing it iirc
22:30:00 <alise> once I scraped thermal paste off a cpu
22:30:06 <alise> (I didn't realise, I was young)
22:30:20 <Deewiant> Do what I do and ignore cable routing: just find the first working solution
22:30:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes and even that is tricky in my case
22:30:39 <alise> on my computer... I was young, as I said.
22:30:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is a tower but not an excessively large one
22:30:49 <alise> Didn't Dan's Data find out toothpaste worked well for a time as a thermal paste?
22:31:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, at least I only have the PATA cd nowdays, no PATA harddrive
22:31:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, not any more, it made the computer refuse to boot when plugged in one day
22:32:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is still in the case since I couldn't find the piece to fill the hole at the front
22:33:16 <AnMaster> oh I guess it does look nice indeed
22:36:16 <alise> i want to live on a mountain of computers
22:36:32 <alise> hey, the hole is ventilation!
22:36:38 <alise> you're not SUPPOSED to put floppy drives there!
22:36:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: how much money do you have?
22:37:00 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC Edinburgh University has a supercomputer somewhere.
22:37:06 <alise> NOT MANY PEOPLE KNOW THIS but I came up with a parts list of an top-of-the-line computer costing $1,600...
22:38:11 <oklopol> came up with in what sense
22:38:18 <alise> Just bsmntbombdood's rig... rubbish graphics card but an i7 CPU, 12 GiB of DDR3 RAM, 80 GiB SSD + 1 or 2 TB disk
22:38:40 <alise> oklopol: Not much at all I just found parts that like each other on newegg to maximise cost/performance ratio :P
22:38:46 <alise> bsmntbombdood: har har har -- (you are joking right)
22:39:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I also get access to Ulster University's computer place in a few weeks.
22:39:22 -!- Halph has joined.
22:39:24 <alise> bsmntbombdood: yeah but most people won't know ... then again i guess they won't know i7 either
22:39:46 -!- tombom_ has joined.
22:40:40 <AnMaster> alise, oh that system I mentioned, not a rubbish GPU
22:41:03 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:41:07 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro.
22:41:20 <alise> AnMaster: GTS is not rubbish but it's not "much"
22:41:35 <oklopol> did you need halph with your feces, pooppy?
22:41:45 <alise> i love you oklopol. marry me
22:41:54 <alise> I have a female name and the pronoun is she so you know it's acceptable
22:41:56 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:41:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: *pooppy
22:42:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wat :P
22:42:34 <AnMaster> alise, 2 x of them isn't too bad for GPU computation
22:42:39 <alise> oklopol: okay so i need a plane ticket, where should i get it to
22:42:49 <alise> AnMaster: well 2 of them is good, yes.
22:42:55 <alise> oklopol: just checking you guys have an airport right
22:42:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh yeah
22:43:04 <alise> oklopol: um i think you can get married over the internet nowadays
22:43:10 <alise> oklopol: your job is to find out
22:43:22 <alise> do you need parental permission to get married if you're 14? what if it's not your native country the marriage will be in
22:43:26 <alise> and can i move in with you?
22:43:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: by whom
22:43:46 <oklopol> i guess you can move in the room we're not using that much
22:43:53 <AnMaster> alise, also lets see how long stuff takes on this...
22:44:17 <alise> oklopol: certainly, can i use your internet connection
22:44:29 * AnMaster wish there was a batch hugin stitcher command that didn't require X
22:44:38 <alise> shut up AnMaster me and oklopol are having personal talk
22:44:40 <AnMaster> X forwarding the window is slowing things down
22:44:55 <alise> AnMaster: we're getting MARRIED!
22:45:45 <alise> AnMaster: just because you disapprove of our quasi-homosexual, underage coupling
22:45:49 <alise> doesn't mean you have to be NASTY about it
22:46:17 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: what does your nick mean
22:46:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: Especially nasty to be so nasty about it so soon before LGBT Pride Month.
22:47:04 <oklopol> well the other interpretation, hoover that targets phantoms
22:47:04 <pikhq> (US-only, is so by decree of President Obama)
22:47:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, the nasty bit is about underage
22:47:56 <alise> a hoover of phantoms would be useful for the ghostbusters
22:48:15 <pikhq> Gay Muslim Kenyan American Unamerican Hawai'ian Communist.
22:48:25 <alise> AnMaster: In all seriousness, I am pretty sure my (serious) consent to something is worth more than an average 16 year old's
22:48:28 <alise> (age of consent in UK)
22:48:36 <alise> Therefore, respect my goddamn marriage
22:48:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (I would like to make it clear that my name has nothing to do with the aforementioned plumber's)
22:50:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I wouldn't trust the 16-year-olds I meet to give consent to do something very inane which I can't think of right now.
22:50:36 <alise> AnMaster: multicore
22:51:10 <alise> Heck, I'd say my consent -- if I give it after at least a bit of thinking -- is probably worth at least as much as the average 18 year old's. Even if it's slightly less, which I doubt, remember that all the below-average 18 year olds are allowed to consent too...
22:51:13 <AnMaster> alise, not aggregated over several threads
22:51:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: Counting in-kernel time.
22:51:25 <pikhq> Which can easily be on multiple CPUs.
22:51:27 <alise> Of course, you can't make the age of consent "Anyone who's intelligent and informed enough to consent can consent."
22:51:30 <oklopol> 16-yo's know what they're doing
22:51:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that could explain it
22:51:38 <alise> Because that's ... a fuckpile of a legal mess.
22:51:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I could REARRANGE SOMEONE'S VAGINA.
22:51:52 <alise> And then FAIL TO COMMUNICATE WITH IT
22:51:53 <AnMaster> STOP MESSING UP MY TAB COMPLETE (last spoken first)
22:51:54 <pikhq> It's also quite possible for Linux to be swapping CPUs on that process that much. :P
22:51:58 * AnMaster glares at both pikhq and Phantom_Hoover
22:52:19 <pikhq> (that sounds like a terrible idea)
22:52:53 <alise> Yes. Not communicating? ewwwww
22:53:02 <alise> Is it just me, or was Bell Labs totally awesome?
22:53:07 <oklopol> i don't get why people think kids can't decide stuff for themselves, any 15-yo can easily live by themselves, and unless seriously retarded, of course they fucking know what it means to get married or have sex
22:53:11 <alise> They did almost everything except telephones
22:53:23 <alise> Unix... background radiation of the universe...
22:53:31 <pikhq> oklopol: Many 15 year olds are seriously retarded.
22:53:49 <pikhq> Do you happen to recall high school?
22:53:57 <alise> IMO probably the biggest pandemic in society right now is how we treat children
22:54:13 <pikhq> This was filled with people who thought football performance *mattered* in the long run.
22:54:21 <alise> We de-educate them to be fuckheads, then stop them making informed decisions about things for years on the grounds that they're not intelligent enough yet which is OUR FAULT!
22:54:24 <oklopol> pikhq: or well to be more precise; i doubt they are on average any more retarded than 18-yo's
22:54:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If we make our children intelligent... then stupidity is gone in a generation.
22:54:37 <pikhq> oklopol: Well, on that count I agree.
22:54:39 <AnMaster> if we didn't treat them like retarded, the retarded ones would quickly be "weeded" out
22:54:50 <oklopol> pikhq: high school was when people started life on their own
22:54:56 <alise> I don't believe many people are inherently idiotic, without mental disabilities.
22:55:00 <alise> Sure, there is a gradient.
22:55:12 <oklopol> no one was retarded in high school
22:55:18 <alise> But teach the kid fucking rationality starting at an early age -- make their first things learned be how to fucking think properly because nobody can do it.
22:55:30 <alise> How to make conclusions instead of just using emotion and heuristics.
22:55:40 <alise> Then once they're literate it's just a process of adding knowledge.
22:55:45 <alise> Yes they freaking can!
22:55:50 <alise> Every intelligent person in the world can think properly.
22:55:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Hell, most primary-school teachers fail at even basic mathematics.
22:55:59 <alise> They can look at evidence, come up with theories, do experiments, come to conclusions.
22:56:03 <alise> It's not about arithmetic
22:56:06 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:56:07 <AnMaster> alise, you are overly optimistic
22:56:08 <alise> It's about being able to think.
22:56:13 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, in US or where?
22:56:17 <AnMaster> I doubt it is same in all countries
22:56:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what about in China?
22:56:30 <alise> AnMaster: So, let me get this straight: You think that the vast majority of the human race is inherently stupid and can only think with emotion and heuristics?
22:56:45 <AnMaster> alise, no, not the vast majority
22:56:49 * Sgeo_ goes to watch the Stargate movie
22:56:50 <alise> One, no, most people are slightly intelligent, and if you can be slightly intelligent you can be moreso.
22:57:05 <alise> That would make intelligent people an extremely statistical outlier
22:57:07 <AnMaster> alise, but I think "<alise> Every intelligent person in the world can think properly." is a gross exaggeration in the other direction
22:57:23 <alise> AnMaster: So name an intelligent person who can't think properly.
22:57:57 <AnMaster> alise, somehow I did s/intelligent//
22:58:09 <AnMaster> my new claim is thus that far from everyone is intelligent enough
22:58:10 <alise> Anyway, it's simple fact that today's education system makes people stupid.
22:58:44 <alise> It's a conformity factory. It was not designed to produce intelligence. It was designed to produce office workers.
22:59:04 <Sgeo_> Ahaha. There's an ad saying "See something? [relating to illegal downloads] Report it!"
22:59:12 <alise> And education can never work unless we teach people to think properly as the core part of it... schools are just about stuffing facts, but they stuff facts into brains without telling them how to utilise them first
22:59:13 <Sgeo_> This ad is on YouTube
22:59:16 <oklopol> pikhq: in tv series us people are in high school like in 3rd to 6th grade
22:59:19 <alise> and stuffing facts is not how you do mathematics ... or anything
22:59:36 <oklopol> like finnish people (when i was growing up at least) are in 3rd to 6th ...
23:00:00 <alise> Anyway I doubt education levels will sufficiently improve
23:00:08 <oklopol> but that's probably true for finnish tv series too, i just don't watch them
23:00:09 <alise> because most people capable of educating a child properly will decide not to have one
23:01:09 <oklopol> what? why would someone not want a child
23:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> They represent a huge amount of time, money and effort.
23:01:44 <oklopol> AnMaster: they're idiots, "wah wah people don't like me wah wah i had my period it's so embarrassing"
23:02:03 <alise> Well, here's the reasons:
23:02:09 <alise> - the world is overpopulated already
23:02:18 <alise> - there is so much suffering and stupidity in the world that putting someone new into it is basically cruelty
23:02:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm lets see. Star Trek
23:02:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, is it the case there?
23:02:26 <alise> - it's basically a selfish thing to do
23:02:45 <alise> - other selfish reasons counteracting the selfishness like the money, effort, etc.
23:03:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, in fact I seem to remember quite a different view on things there.
23:03:32 <oklopol> alise: no, 1) no one cares about overpopulation 2) there's very little suffering or stupidity in the world, and life is awesome 3) yes
23:03:50 <oklopol> sorry i read that as "i like sheep"
23:04:08 <oklopol> okay then 4) who cares get a wife and just do the interesting parts
23:04:21 <oklopol> 5) there's always enough money
23:04:26 <alise> 1) I care about overpopulation
23:04:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, are you ignoring my counterproof?
23:04:41 <alise> 2) Life is fucking shit; for one pain is still around, for two poverty is still around, ...
23:04:47 <oklopol> well you're still making a negative impact to it by just having one child per pair of humans
23:04:50 <alise> 4) you can't sleep with a baby.
23:05:12 <oklopol> AnMaster: i haven't watched star trek
23:05:12 <alise> anyway i'm trying to convince oklopol of something, why
23:05:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, okay, I suggest you do
23:05:29 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:05:38 <oklopol> alise: pain and poverty might be around, but not for the kid
23:05:41 <AnMaster> alise, it is probably pointless unless it is about math
23:05:46 <alise> mr kid will grow up
23:05:50 <oklopol> so what's wrong with adding humans with GOOD lives?
23:06:02 <alise> oklopol: overpopulation. and nobody has a truly good life
23:06:10 <alise> AnMaster: and besides it'd ruin him, he's only fun because he's crazy
23:06:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, are you taking an utilitarian view here?
23:06:16 <alise> oklopol: Have you ever had pain?
23:06:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, actually
23:06:36 <alise> this was my view before all this crap.
23:06:56 <oklopol> "<AnMaster> alise, it is probably pointless unless it is about math" <<< yeah alise convincing me of being wrong about something in math, that sounds pointful.
23:07:01 <AnMaster> alise, so you were bitter before then too?
23:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> So you're basically one of the "life isn't worth living" people?
23:07:23 <AnMaster> Always look at the bright side of life! <whistle>
23:07:24 <alise> I just think that there's a lot of suffering in the world and we should work on making it better before subjecting other people to it
23:07:38 <oklopol> alise: had pain? i've experienced pain, it's an interesting feeling, but you don't really get to try it much
23:07:41 <alise> AnMaster: you know, that was said while nailed to a cross
23:07:49 <alise> oklopol: well see this is why you don't understand :P
23:07:56 <alise> AnMaster: just mentioning
23:08:00 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: True, but if we decide to fix suffering and then have children we'll all be old and infertile.
23:08:35 <alise> Oh come on, that's a ridiculous thing to say.
23:08:38 -!- coppro has joined.
23:08:39 <AnMaster> alise, I guess I was using it as meta-meta-sarcasm
23:08:41 <alise> We're going to get old and infertile too.
23:08:52 <oklopol> alise: intelligent people will not understand because they've used their intelligence to make their lives awesome.
23:08:58 <oklopol> therefore they will reproduce.
23:09:01 <alise> If we manage to eliminate suffering we'll have the technological prowess to create babies whatever it takes
23:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Yes, but if we produce no more potentially fertile individuals.
23:09:12 <alise> eliminating suffering involves eliminating all illness, all pain, death, aging...
23:09:19 <alise> So if you can do that, what's one teeny little baby
23:09:30 <AnMaster> <oklopol> alise: had pain? i've experienced pain, it's an interesting feeling, but you don't really get to try it much <-- sure? put your hand in boiling water
23:09:52 <alise> You know, some people don't feel pain as pain, just as a tingling feeling.
23:09:52 <coppro> alise: not necessarily
23:09:54 <coppro> there is another means to eliminating suffering
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23:09:55 <coppro> and that would imply the nonexistence of human technology
23:09:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: So basically your logic is that we shouldn't have children until the singularity?
23:09:57 <alise> Perhaps oklopol is the same...
23:10:00 <oklopol> i seem to have an extremely high threshold for getting burns
23:10:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, only by mistake I presume?
23:10:04 <alise> coppro: it would imply the nonexistence of humans!
23:10:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much. Yep.
23:10:25 <coppro> err, yes, I didn't say what I meant to say. It would imply us not having any technology
23:10:33 <oklopol> AnMaster: well no, i don't get sexual pleasure from pain, but it's a fun thing to try occasionally
23:10:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: And what if the singularity is unattainable within a human lifetime?
23:10:39 <oklopol> life is about experiencing stuff
23:10:45 <alise> coppro: A wild lifestyle would be very painful.
23:10:48 <coppro> alise: there would be no us to have it
23:10:53 <alise> coppro: right, that's what i said.
23:10:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, you know, I never considered it that far
23:11:01 <alise> well we'd have to completely genociderate all people
23:12:03 <Phantom_Hoover> If it turns out that we don't have the time to attain the singularity in our lifetimes, we pretty much need to have children, or delegate everything to computers
23:12:23 <alise> coppro: are you a buddhist?
23:12:29 <alise> I don't think insects can gain enlightenment
23:12:33 <alise> and killing them would be against buddhism
23:12:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: true, having babies for the purpose of introducing more intelligent people who will help the singularity happen is a good reason.
23:13:13 <alise> dunno if i'm altruistic enough to subject myself to that :P
23:13:32 <AnMaster> alise, afaik that is not what most variants of Buddhism says.
23:13:44 <oklopol> the only good reason to have babies is they are probably the most interesting thing there is, i mean come on you have your own fucking HUMAN :d
23:14:05 <alise> AnMaster: Any sect of Buddhism that permits any sort of killing is probably not Buddhism.
23:14:16 <oklopol> and you can teach all sorts of magic
23:14:33 <alise> I know there are several distorted sects of "Buddhism" that teach things like the existence of a material, tangible Hell like in Christianity and have a lot of bloodlust towards rival sects
23:14:38 <coppro> buddhism is just weird nihilism
23:14:38 <alise> but that's not really buddhism at all
23:14:47 <alise> No, buddhism is not nihilism
23:14:55 <alise> Nihilism would advocate no option in particular when presented with a list
23:15:04 <alise> buddhism would always advocate towards total enlightenment
23:15:22 <coppro> not that form of nihilism
23:15:23 <oklopol> is there really any difference between anything
23:15:34 <coppro> the form of nihilism that advocates destruction of everything
23:15:37 <oklopol> yes there is don't be stupid
23:16:03 <oklopol> alise: anyway i suppose those were my strongest opinions
23:16:13 <oklopol> oh wait i had something about languages
23:16:21 <oklopol> that i haven't ranted about for a while
23:16:27 <alise> coppro: no, buddhism is totally not that!
23:16:37 <oklopol> but i think i've covered the others
23:16:40 <alise> buddhism doesn't advocate the destruction of anything
23:16:55 <alise> it advocates achieving enlightenment, then snuffing yourself out by becoming one with everything or some mystical shit like that
23:16:57 <oklopol> i should choose more opinions
23:16:58 <coppro> they advocate attaining a state of nothingness
23:17:14 <AnMaster> destruction? impossible. Law of conservation of energy.
23:17:16 <alise> they equate nothingness with everythingness though, do they not?
23:17:22 <alise> and they don't consider plain suicide achieving that
23:17:29 <AnMaster> of course, it might be a lot less easy to put something back
23:17:31 <alise> only death after enlightenment, which is basically your highest point anyway
23:17:34 <alise> and so completes your life to the full
23:18:34 <AnMaster> I argue that nothing is ever destroyed. It is at most converted into another form
23:19:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, like "aaaaargh" kind of
23:20:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, very bad joke/reference
23:20:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, eh? wouldn't a towel be more fitting?
23:21:09 <AnMaster> okay that one made no sense whatsoever
23:21:11 <oklopol> what was the reference about
23:21:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, hitchhikers guide to the galaxy
23:21:40 <oklopol> i don't read fiction usually
23:21:51 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i don't read google either
23:21:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, it is a classic, everyone should know it
23:21:56 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
23:22:01 <alise> no oklopol doesn't have to do anything
23:22:05 <alise> i like him just as he is
23:22:10 * alise puts oklopol in my pocket
23:22:10 <oklopol> well i've read dostojevski's idiot
23:22:16 <oklopol> that's classic enough for one lifetime
23:23:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, also humoristic, not dead serious at all
23:23:31 <alise> Humoristic is very much not a word.
23:23:52 <alise> anyway i really must get around to making a nicely typeset H2G2
23:24:04 <oklopol> i mean it wasn't as intelligent as south park, but it had some good points.
23:24:19 <alise> all I need is a copy with `` '' quotes, and some sort of easy marking for the italic sections
23:24:22 <alise> then i can work some magic on it
23:24:41 <oklopol> but yeah maybe i should read h2g2, at least i've decided to do that about 50 times
23:25:09 <alise> oklopol: buy it in dead tree, the online versions are shit
23:25:20 <alise> oklopol: and you can get all the five books in one so it's so thick you can barely hold it, it's wonderful
23:25:35 <alise> Anyone here read Goedel, Escher, Bach?
23:25:38 <alise> Well, I have it in paperback.
23:25:47 <alise> It is the most ludicrously thick paperback imaginable.
23:25:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Isn't it ridiculous???
23:26:11 <oklopol> i was gonna order geb but for some reason i didn't
23:26:19 <alise> It's not that good a book
23:26:29 <alise> I love the dialogues, though
23:26:32 <alise> especially the one at the end
23:27:13 <oklopol> it's not good? i thought it was a book where the characters are gliders in gol and they have a whole new kind of society of gliders that unravels before the readers sweaty eyes
23:28:33 <oklopol> but is it SORT OF like that
23:28:55 <alise> oklopol: it's about goedel's incompleteness theorems and computation and consciousness and it has a ton of tortoise/achilles dialogues including ones where characters that are fictional and real in the universe swap half way through, the universe nests too much, and other things... and some other things.
23:29:08 <alise> the computation parts are not that much, it's mostly all about how it links together
23:29:19 <alise> although i skipped over a lot of the TNT parts because it was just tedious symbol-manipulation to prove things
23:29:21 <Sgeo_> :This video contains content from Lionsgate, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
23:29:22 <alise> so if you like proofs it's good.
23:29:57 <oklopol> well i do like the occasional tedious symbol manipulation
23:31:24 <oklopol> usually books meant for the layman have more of those really ugly symbol manipulation proofs than mathematical texts that consists only of proofs, i suppose this is because the point is not to actually teach anything, but to be able to copypaste some bullshit in the book that some nerd can read and think he's real tough
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23:32:12 <oklopol> you know those pathetic retards that read that sort of books and then they're all like "im hardcore brain boy"
23:32:17 <alise> oklopol: well it actually goes through goedel's incompleteness theorem in the formal system
23:32:29 <oklopol> yeah i wasn't really being serious
23:32:31 <alise> it is mostly symbol manipulation, though :P
23:32:38 <oklopol> althought what i said is true often, i guess
23:32:38 <AnMaster> <alise> Humoristic is very much not a word.
23:33:38 <AnMaster> alise, anyway it would be logical if humoristic was a word
23:33:45 <AnMaster> it would follow the pattern of other words
23:34:00 <alise> It's a word if you believe the American dictionaries, at least.
23:34:11 <AnMaster> alise, also humoristisk in Swedish
23:34:17 <alise> But "humor" is the incorrect spelling, and I wouldn't even accept the abomination humouristic when the far superior word humorous is already there.
23:34:18 <Sgeo_> And F U too, Lionsgate
23:34:25 <AnMaster> alise, I accept both US and UK spellings
23:35:06 <AnMaster> alise, and I can't see a reason why it is "far superior"
23:35:34 <oklopol> alise: if i use humor in writing and use humour when talking, does that sort of balance it out?
23:35:38 <alise> Okay, the humor thing was basically a troll.
23:35:47 <alise> But humouristic sounds idiotic.
23:35:54 <alise> It is incredibly inelegant and just makes you sound, well, Swedish.
23:36:02 <AnMaster> alise, only to someone used to UK English
23:36:14 <AnMaster> alise, actually a Dane could manage it too
23:36:26 <oklopol> ju det r ett humristikalt ord
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23:36:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, what the heck was that
23:37:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, wth would "humöristikalt" mean though
23:37:44 <oklopol> humristikalt to you is what humoristical sounds to an english dude
23:37:50 <oklopol> i'm just trying to drive alise's point home
23:38:11 <AnMaster> alise, humör = mood, humor = humour
23:38:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, yep, which is why it confused the hell out of me
23:38:58 <oklopol> can you use it in a sentence
23:39:04 <AnMaster> hm google translate also suggests "temper" for "humör"
23:39:06 <oklopol> no need to translate because i'm awesome
23:39:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, if yes: "jag är på dåligt humör"
23:40:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, and for the benefit of alise it means "I'm in a bad mood"
23:41:02 <AnMaster> not sure which is the best translation
23:41:06 <oklopol> can you do something like not that i am currently == jag r inte dock just nu
23:41:23 <oklopol> dock being a guess based on doch
23:41:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, what would "doch" be?
23:42:13 <AnMaster> in any case, the word order was wrong there.
23:42:41 <oklopol> i don't know how the dock works if it's the correct word
23:42:50 <AnMaster> "jag är inte dock just nu" ~ "I am not alas right now". It ends up as wrong word order in English too
23:43:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, "jag är just nu dock inte på dåligt humör" would work
23:43:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, dock sounds somewhat formal
23:44:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, I would use it in everyday speech but that tells more about me than about how it is used :P
23:44:13 <oklopol> yeah i thought it's probably not really the best for swedish
23:44:24 <oklopol> but i don't know swedish very well
23:44:33 <oklopol> i'm telling you this because you probably couldn't tell
23:44:53 <oklopol> kulli kdes oottelen vastaustas
23:45:04 <uorygl> Wait, you actually know Finnish?
23:45:12 <alise> He's Finish, you idiot.
23:45:27 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
23:45:52 <oklopol> uorygl: mik maksaa hpnassu
23:46:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, um, how do you pronounce "höpönassu"?
23:46:30 <uorygl> It's pronounced HÖ-pö-nas-su.
23:46:32 <AnMaster> in Swedish it would be tricky and sound very very funny
23:47:09 <AnMaster> uorygl, how very helpful (not)
23:47:16 <oklopol> almost like swedish except our u is your o, and you have to remember x is always short, xx is always long
23:47:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, but there is no x in there
23:47:46 <uorygl> oklopol: just a minute, I've almost finished decoding the first thing you said. :P
23:48:05 <oklopol> uorygl: you probably shouldn't translate the rest... :P
23:48:30 <oklopol> possibly that's not exactly swedish
23:48:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, not like in Swedish where "ass" in there would make a short a followed by a normal s?
23:48:35 <oklopol> maybe i should just use english :P
23:48:54 <oklopol> like the s's in "piss sack"
23:48:54 <AnMaster> <oklopol> en massa av ... has it
23:49:44 <uorygl> Hyvä... entä... sinä...
23:49:56 <oklopol> uorygl: second one you should be able to translate, although it's colloquial, the third one might be challenging
23:50:33 <oklopol> or umm i dunno what it was
23:51:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm does fi allow concatenation like Swedish does?
23:51:16 * uorygl decides he can leave "kulli" out of his flash cards for now.
23:51:31 <AnMaster> * uorygl decides he can leave "kulli" out of his flash cards for now. <-- what?
23:52:24 <oklopol> i used it when responding to uorygl
23:52:33 <uorygl> Eh, it's more fun to say my own stuff instead of trying to figure out what other people are saying. :P
23:52:36 <AnMaster> what does memory cards have to do with this
23:52:39 <pikhq> oklopol: Why do you guys speak Japanese with a funny cypher?
23:52:53 <oklopol> uorygl: well it's fun to read what you say so go ahead
23:53:00 <uorygl> Because Finnish is the Sacred Language of Things for Which Finnish is Used as a Sacred Language.
23:53:31 <uorygl> What's "kädes" supposed to be, anyway?
23:53:34 <oklopol> pikhq: you should ask a linguist
23:53:48 <pikhq> oklopol: He's not here right now.
23:53:50 <uorygl> I should probably learn what all these cases are. :)
23:54:01 <oklopol> in finnish it's common to drop stuff from most words
23:54:09 * AnMaster saw a LOT arrive in a single second
23:54:33 <uorygl> So, from käsi, hand-or-something.
23:54:37 <AnMaster> everything after "* uorygl decides he can leave "kulli" out of his flash cards for now." up to "<uorygl> I should probably learn what all these cases are. :)" arrived in a single second
23:54:49 <oklopol> ksi -> kde is the weakening or whatever it's called
23:55:09 <uorygl> I have no idea what oottelen is.
23:55:38 <oklopol> but you usually drop it at least in turku, i think elsewhere too.
23:56:06 <AnMaster> uorygl, "Inessive"? wth does that mean
23:56:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, you have a specially word form for that?
23:56:48 <uorygl> Hey, it's that partitive case again.
23:56:59 <oklopol> but yeah we have an inessive case
23:57:20 <oklopol> uorygl: yes, plus another thing in the end too
23:57:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: "wow"? it's not exactly an uncommon case in languages that have those
23:57:49 <uorygl> How does "vastaustas" break down?
23:58:02 <oklopol> either you just have a few really generic ones, like german, or then you have these positional things too.
23:58:13 <oklopol> uorygl: you got it except for the s
23:58:20 <oklopol> that's contracted from vastaustasi
23:58:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, English and Swedish only have a few generic ones
23:58:37 <pikhq> Languages should have fewer cases.
23:58:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, French has a few more iirc but not quite as much
23:59:06 <pikhq> While we're at it, we should reduce everything to grunts and vague gestures.
23:59:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm might make communication a bit harder
23:59:25 <uorygl> oklopol: so what do the ta and si do?
23:59:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, would need to redesign IRC for it
23:59:37 <oklopol> uorygl: you got it already, ta is partitive
23:59:59 <oklopol> if a word ends in s, the partitive is usually -ta (i think always)