00:00:02 tvim; like gvim but it wasn't always graphical 00:00:15 or Dirty Harry will bust down your door and point his magnum at your puny face! 00:01:30 (BTW, I know nobody cares, esp. AnMaster, but I did eek out a Pascal Befunge-93 interpreter recently) 00:02:02 Does it do PSOX? 00:02:18 B93? no ;-) 00:02:42 and I'll humbly admit I don't even know what that means 00:02:51 don't be humble 00:02:52 (fingerprint??) 00:03:10 Sgeo's shitty 00:03:27 or jitty ... ha ha ha, oh wait ........ 00:03:29 lol. 00:03:35 * Sgeo_ can't actually figure out what the next bit would be 00:03:42 Rugxulo, I don't get it 00:03:52 ask Seth Gold 00:04:06 ^_^ 00:04:22 * Rugxulo wishes he were funny, but alas ... 00:04:59 http://qaa.ath.cx/addition.png [[Addition]] 00:05:53 Is there a particular reason you needed to take a screenshot? 00:05:57 "Not only did that not help me but now I forgot how to perform addition altogether." --reddit 00:05:59 Sgeo_: I didn't take it. 00:06:30 i need to take a jit and go to sleep 00:06:32 -> 00:06:41 Link to thread? 00:06:43 no worse than Wikipedia's link to "motherf*cker" from the AC Transit bus fight meme 00:06:46 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/c8vyo/for_the_longest_time_i_couldnt_wrap_my_head/ 00:06:53 Rugxulo: Motherfucker. 00:06:55 Mother-FUCKER. 00:06:57 MOTHER-fucker. 00:06:58 MOTHERFUCKER. 00:06:59 (gotta love dem bastards, citation required!) 00:07:03 MoThErFuCkEr. 00:07:09 No asterisk in sight... 00:07:35 m*th*rfucker 00:07:50 m****rfucker 00:07:54 Br**nfuck 00:08:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Beard_Man 00:08:21 "In the video, Bruso is seen wearing a light blue T-shirt that reads "I AM a Motherfucker" on the back." 00:08:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherfucker 00:08:51 "This article needs additional citations for verification." 00:09:05 "Motherfucker (euphemized as mf) is a vulgarism which, in its most literal use, refers to one who participates in sexual intercourse with someone's mother." 00:09:13 ah, Wikipedia, educating the children, good for them 00:09:16 QUITE SO GOOD CHAP 00:09:35 and linked from the AC Transit bus fight, how elucidating! 00:10:02 alise: why did you link that 00:10:16 Sgeo_ asked 00:10:23 "The term gained traction during World War II, originally amongst African American GIs, " ... uh, how encyclopedic of them (NOT!) 00:10:35 oh okay 00:10:41 i didn't read the comments 00:10:58 alise 00:11:02 -> 00:11:04 alise, I trolled a subreddit 00:11:07 alise 00:11:08 i need you 00:11:16 Sgeo_: that's nice. 00:11:17 cheater99: okay 00:11:18 cheater99: in what sense 00:11:19 why does bcrypt only have a cost param for gensalt 00:11:23 but not for hashpw 00:11:23 http://www.reddit.com/r/iamaf/comments/c8w9v/iamna_person_trolling_riamaf_with_this_post/ 00:11:28 cheater99: dunno, cuz that's how it works 00:11:32 use gensalt it will make you happy 00:11:34 happy like a walrus 00:12:10 or the eggman 00:14:07 i don't understand alise :< 00:14:25 cheater99: just think about the gzzzzzzop 00:14:32 it will emlitten 00:14:37 about what? 00:14:39 it will what? 00:14:44 OMG head asplode 00:14:49 the ipfk 00:15:49 * cheater99 shows up in alise's room with an 'I <3 RP' tshirt on. and nothing else. 00:15:56 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:15:56 BTW, alise, did you hear that Win 3.0 turned 20? 00:16:09 cheater99: what does RP expand to here exactly :| 00:16:13 Rugxulo: no, but i figure that is how time works 00:16:20 alise: what ever we want to, baby. 00:16:25 oh, and eComStation 2.0 was finally released 00:16:47 coincidence? I think not! ;-) 00:16:55 cheater99: i'm scared 00:17:05 cheater99: i think i'll choose it to stand for received pronunciation 00:24:19 * Sgeo_ wants to make an API for multi-platform 3d environment bots 00:24:29 A lowest common denominator sort of thing 00:24:48 alise: that's what u get 4 trollering me 00:25:01 cheater99: how did i torlleringate you 00:25:27 ask urzelf 00:25:41 no 00:26:05 on rms: "His emacs had a image background gregori rasputin. After any attempt to look at his screen he'd shut the lid and hiss. Call me crazy but his beard would move on its own sometimes too." 00:27:01 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: tired). 00:27:42 "You, my friend, are unique and special. Like a working instance of the HURD kernel." 00:28:59 * Sgeo_ has something to say on this topic, but my computer's being a prick 00:29:41 http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/4361/99561.aspx#99561 00:30:56 Not that topic /again/ 00:34:45 alise, you asked for it by mentioning RMS 00:42:40 oklopol: thue? 00:42:56 Who's thue? 00:46:31 Thue is a language. 00:46:38 Oh 00:46:41 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue 00:46:48 One of the most surprising instances of Turing-completeness. 00:51:01 Interresting 00:52:03 Interpreteresting 00:52:40 oklopol: i didnt know of that language, no :P 00:53:58 09:05:17 Why in the name of goat did we make the wiki public domain? 00:54:03 Graue is opinionated -- I agree with him 00:54:08 09:07:50 No GPLed code. On a *software* wiki. 00:54:10 That's why we use links. 00:54:18 Never given us problems; deal. 00:55:23 * Sgeo_ gives alise a problem 00:55:41 I reject your problem and substitute my own, much more easily-rectified problem. 00:58:04 * Zuu steals the problems and nukes it in the micorwave oven 00:59:04 * Zuu nukes his spelling in the microwave oven too 01:01:18 ok, i figured it out 01:02:10 bcrypt's hasher DOES have a parameter for the amount of iterations. it's passed as part of the salt string. 01:04:00 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 01:04:01 yeah 01:04:07 i think it affects the salt generation too though 01:04:20 -!- Mathnerd314_ has quit (Client Quit). 01:04:56 -!- ec has changed nick to elliottcable. 01:05:00 -!- elliottcable has changed nick to battlecollie. 01:05:04 -!- battlecollie has changed nick to [e]. 01:05:26 -!- [e] has changed nick to mj. 01:05:46 -!- mj has changed nick to ec. 01:06:12 Nice, putting iteration count in salt, enabling variable verification complexity. 01:06:29 I think I want to wear a helmet for the rest of my life 01:06:35 Oh, look, he's still here. 01:49:25 ¡Ay! It looks like there are no good web sites out there for learning Finnish. 01:57:45 Okay, Spaniard. 01:58:44 13:26:08 Phantom_Hoover: hah 01:58:45 13:26:28 Phantom_Hoover: distributed applications, web applications, client/server stuff 01:58:45 13:26:42 Phantom_Hoover: positioned to replace Ruby/JavaScript or Python/JavaScript 01:58:45 13:30:04 So it's not esoteric? 01:58:48 Pre-fuckin'-cisely. 01:59:00 13:33:59 people’ve called it esoteric 01:59:01 People are stupid. 01:59:08 I love slow logreading. 02:02:20 -!- alise has left (?). 02:02:23 -!- alise has joined. 02:06:42 Hah. 02:09:54 International Standard. 02:10:41 So anyway, Ripple (http://ripple.sourceforge.net/) is awesome (https://ripplepay.com/ but this is stalled iirc) 02:28:52 Decentralization makes me horny, but that doesn't mean everything can be decentralized 02:32:16 * pikhq decentralises Sgeo 02:35:32 hawt 02:36:57 Considering Ripple is an actually-tried-in-practice, feasible solution that would solve an awful lot of economic problems... 02:37:03 It's not decentralisation for decentralisation's sake. 02:46:32 Tried on what scale? 02:47:48 ripplepay.com 02:47:52 A very small scale, but still. 02:47:59 It isn't something with a huge inherent flaw that makes it impossible. 02:53:28 That we know of 02:53:42 We don't know how well it will scale 02:55:01 Fearmongering is pointless and for weak minds; you should know better than that. Find problems in the system instead of instinctively reacting like that to ideas you haven't been exposed to. 02:55:08 Or the status quo really will control our thoughts... 02:55:32 I'm just saying it needs to be tested on a larger scale. 02:55:58 Unlikely; the economic status of the world means that no real change is possible. 03:04:25 alise: Not impossible. Just sure to be incredibly traumatic when it happens. 03:04:49 (somewhere along the lines of "oh fuck everything broke") 03:04:59 I hope to not see that. 03:05:04 Indeed. 03:05:05 This broken system beats its chaotic destruction. 03:05:12 I can has gradual anarchy? 03:05:24 I'd rather not see the approximate equivalent of the fall of Rome. 03:06:22 [violin] 03:11:13 Suppose somehow, by some strange fortune, there are two people who have no links between them 03:13:56 Wrong. 03:14:07 That doesn't happen. The world doesn't work like that. 03:14:37 One of these people lives in Alpha Centauri. 03:14:59 -!- lament has joined. 03:17:22 (It's me) 03:20:16 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:21:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:22:51 03:23:03 03:25:18 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:26:28 03:28:19 ‍ 03:29:03 Now the colon before the message is mix-up? However, it is still gray, rather than blue as the message text is supposed to be blue 03:30:40 Maybe something to do with out PuTTY works 03:30:48 You're not just typing spaces? 03:30:48 s/out/how/ 03:31:09 I was, but Gregor is different 03:32:12 Who here isn't different? 03:33:11 Alise, it's happened before. 03:33:47 Unless you count dead people in the links, I guess 03:34:48 I did a Unicode zero-width space :P 03:35:46 Sgeo_: It hasn't "happened before". Under a Ripple system, the probability that two people are connected in a sufficiently large economy is... say... 1. 03:36:05 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:38:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:44:53 How about before, say, Columbus? 03:46:47 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:46:59 SgeoN1: they didn't have technoeconomies. 03:47:22 And Columbus was lame. 03:47:49 Confused and stubborn, yes. Lame? 03:53:02 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:56:30 "HEY GUYZ, AMERICA! Ignore the Leif Ericson behind the curtain." 04:01:56 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:05:49 Hmm, I did't know about him 04:07:41 Wow. Really? 04:07:46 Get yourself some edumacation, sir. 04:12:24 Good night, good sirs, good madams, not that we have any -- good night. 04:12:35 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:28:31 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 04:40:23 hmmm, CCBI updated yesterday 04:40:35 Anyone interested in cellular automata? 04:40:45 Yes 04:44:31 zzo38: Cool what about them? 04:46:32 Just a few things, in general. 05:08:08 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:42:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:44:02 0rjan! 05:46:23 what is that about people shouting my nick lately 05:47:09 (or approximations to it) 05:47:10 just bored ;-) 05:47:20 yeah, that was my "joke", heh 05:48:23 if you say so, Ru9xu1ø 05:48:53 ;-) 05:49:17 hmmm, even latest CCBI seems slow on my lame benchmark 05:49:23 thought he fixed that 05:49:27 oh well, not important (obviously) 05:51:32 the lame are usually slow 05:51:32 3 mins. 9 secs. 05:51:36 tsk tsk 05:51:48 I blame D :-) 05:52:05 CCBI is written in D? 05:52:12 or this P4 (better scapegoat) 05:52:13 yes 05:52:30 TV Tropes just LIED to me 05:52:50 Actually, it was referring to XKCD 05:52:54 Which is also lying 05:52:58 http://xkcd.com/180/ 05:52:59 TV Tropes??? 05:53:16 Rugxulo: DON'T GO THERE IT'S A TRAP 05:53:37 *click* *click* *BOOM!* 05:56:27 Dying in Canada does not kill you IRL 05:56:42 * Sgeo_ waits for someone to comment 05:57:02 * Rugxulo expects someone to say, "living in Canada is as good as death" 05:57:08 * oerjan refuses to comment 05:57:31 By Canada, I of course mean IRCNomic 05:57:58 * oerjan suspected that 05:59:15 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 05:59:44 IRCNomic??? 06:00:03 Ironically, Canada itself has died. 06:05:26 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:05:37 -!- gm|lap has quit (Quit: ilua). 06:22:17 ironically, conversion in this channel has died 06:22:51 Iron 06:23:02 Man 06:30:35 This game in demo mode it just keep moving the same card back and forth over and over again all the time 07:27:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:36:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:59:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:39 -!- Gregor has joined. 08:10:14 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:14:21 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 08:21:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:05:11 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:14:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:19:41 (BTW, I know nobody cares, esp. AnMaster, but I did eek out a Pascal Befunge-93 interpreter recently) <-- nice! 09:19:51 turbopascal? 09:20:46 Sgeo_, I fail to see how " Does it do PSOX?" makes sense. Isn't it a separate program from the interpreter normally? 09:21:12 which in theory can be used by any language 09:21:23 well any with byte stdio 09:21:27 well,* 09:21:48 Who said I wanted it to make sense, as opposed to making a joke? But in theory, languages can include features that make working with PSOX easier 09:22:15 mhm 09:22:15 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:22:26 Also, there's no reason the interpreter couldn't include its own PSOX implementation for some reason 09:22:39 PSOX? 09:22:40 Although that would be a bit pointless and annoying 09:22:46 * Sgeo_ should be sleeping 09:23:09 http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX and http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk 09:23:20 Phantom_Hoover, a program that you connect stdin/stdout of a bf program to. Then you can use some sort of escape seqs to do file IO with it and such 09:23:28 "Currently, only domains 0-2 work, but custom domains are function 09:23:28 " LIES 09:23:58 AnMaster, doesn't have to be bf. Just has to have byte stdio, like you just said 09:24:03 Why on earth is your wiki name "Sgep"? 09:24:13 Phantom_Hoover, I lost the password for Sgeo 09:24:28 Did you have an email address set? 09:24:30 I was also on Freenode as Sgep for a time, for the same reason 09:24:34 Phantom_Hoover, I don't think so 09:24:45 Ah. 09:24:45 If I did, I'd have emailed myself a reset thingy 09:24:52 Sgeo_, quite a few languages can't easily do that. 09:24:55 And Graue remains unseen. 09:25:00 isn't TAXI for example quite limited? 09:25:12 AnMaster, iirc, Taxi can actually do it, with a bit of pain 09:25:17 Um, actually, hold on 09:25:26 Sgeo_, I seem to remember there was some issue with zero byte in it 09:25:30 which iirc was used for PSOX 09:25:37 http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/spec/psox-utils.txt 09:26:02 0x04 0x13 loopback, which would allow a TAXI program to add a newline to what it's receiving, since it needs to receive in lines 09:26:05 iirc 09:26:14 That's the reason I added that function, actually 09:26:22 mhm 09:26:50 Any hypothetical PSOX2 would use just simple stuff or less 09:26:58 http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/525347 09:27:03 Sgeo_, you could use protocol modules 09:27:04 Random awesome thing 09:27:13 Although it requires Flash. Sorry. 09:27:18 * Sgeo_ tries to grasp 09:27:24 Sgeo_, that is, different ways to encode for different languages 09:27:44 THe language itself should specify the encoding somehow, I think 09:27:58 so you can fit different frontends to PSOX basically 09:28:27 Sgeo_, so all languages should have to mention PSOX in their specs? 09:28:28 I want the language requesting to specify customizable frontend, I think 09:28:41 AnMaster, nono, the program written in the language 09:28:45 mhm 09:28:46 I was being a bit lazy in my typing 09:36:43 WHY am I still awake? 09:37:16 Sgeo_, because you aren't asleep? 10:01:15 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:02:26 How do you even pronounce "Sgeo"? 10:10:28 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/sgeo.wav 10:10:38 I should be sleeping 5 hours ago 10:10:51 I _had_ the computer closed too! 10:11:04 But no, I had to check Agora to see if I had any responses 10:11:15 Back to pretending to be asleep. Night all 10:11:16 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:14:18 -!- ec has changed nick to elliottcable. 10:24:17 -!- elliottcable has changed nick to ec. 10:30:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:04:12 -!- tombom has joined. 11:16:37 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:26:02 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:40:23 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 12:16:16 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 12:46:23 -!- cheater99 has joined. 12:48:44 hello sweeties 12:49:29 AAAAH! 12:49:46 fizzie oerjan lament! 12:51:05 " Who's thue?" <<< thue was a famous mathematician who did among other things all kinds of fun computability stuff, thue is named after his thue systems which are models of computation almost identical to the language 12:51:38 Also gave me a useful way to answer pointless surveys. 12:52:27 oh right also did some of the first cool combinatorics on words stuff 12:53:06 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:53:31 the thue-morse word was invented for the purpose of not having repetitions of length over 2 12:54:21 Indeed. 12:54:50 (i'm just educating Zuu) 12:54:54 I found out about it when reading a thing on whether it was possible to play an unending game of chess. 12:55:08 except 12:55:12 The language Thue is named after him. 12:55:17 i guess he probably doesn't know what the word is 12:55:40 so i'm not really educating him, but i'm using it as an excuse to be able to say random facts 12:56:24 right unending chess, sort of a trivial corollary 12:56:39 well maybe not entirely trivial because you have to find out what to repeat 12:56:55 although i suppose that takes like 3 moves from the initial position 13:01:14 Zuu: The Thue-Morse sequence: 0110100110010110 13:01:16 ... 13:01:31 You take the complement and concatenate. 13:10:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:11:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:12:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:13:32 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:01:48 * AnMaster tries to figure out how long 306 MB would take at an average transfer speed of 75kB/s 14:03:29 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:03:38 1.3 hours? 14:03:47 hm 14:03:50 not too bad 14:04:49 a bit more than ETA reported by rsync 14:05:13 (yes I did compensate for what it reported as already transferred) 14:15:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:18:57 fizzie oerjan lament! <-- i take it you want cheater99 banned? 14:20:56 why would someone want me banned? 14:20:58 i am so lovable 14:21:07 you'd have to ask Phantom_Hoover about that 14:21:09 No, I was readying. 14:22:38 oerjan: maybe you should ban him anyway, because i want to see your powers in action 14:22:56 It's very boring 14:23:23 you've seen it? 14:23:31 oklopol: i already banned fax a few weeks ago 14:23:37 ah okay 14:23:40 what did she do? 14:23:49 went completely nuts 14:23:49 She posted "FUCK YOU" onto the wall. 14:23:55 About 500 times. 14:24:01 s/wall/channel/ 14:24:01 :D 14:24:08 what day was it i wanna read the log 14:24:21 It was a weekend, a few weeks ago. 14:24:23 can't remember 14:24:33 okay 14:24:35 Look for mention of Klein bottles 14:25:31 oklopol: she used the soupdragon nick then 14:25:47 Two weeks ago. 14:25:56 So the 15th or so. 14:29:11 -!- alise has joined. 14:29:20 Erxcellent. 14:29:36 Excrement. 14:30:57 Yes. Anyway I have some inexplicable urge to write an ircd. 14:31:02 alise: OK, why the nick? 14:31:14 My nick? 14:31:19 Yes. 14:31:44 One day I decided to see how people would treat me differently on IRC if they thought I had ovaries. But I don't go to other channels much and nobody really sexist enters here. 14:32:12 Then I decided to keep it to crush English's sexist pronoun system; this nickname's gender is male, but with all pronouns augmented to be the female ones (while my gender is male) 14:32:23 I do get the impression of friendlier, quicker service when I go to other channels though... and when some trolls came in here they propositioned me for sex 14:32:29 Yes. Anyway I have some inexplicable urge to write an ircd. <-- in which language 14:32:36 But *everyone* refers to you as "he". 14:32:44 No. 14:32:48 oklopol doesn't, and oerjan doesn't when he remembers. 14:33:00 I have not notied this. 14:33:02 And note that people don't use pronouns so much on IRC since there are so many people. 14:33:10 Which is why you have not "notied" (*noticed) it. 14:33:33 AnMaster: That's the frightening thing. Take a guess. 14:33:40 Haskell? 14:33:46 Brainfuck? 14:33:48 That's not frightening for me. 14:33:57 Malbolge? 14:34:06 That's not frightening for me. 14:34:18 alise: i'm not sexist? 14:34:26 women are stupider than men 14:34:35 alise: OK, what? 14:34:43 oklopol: that's what they want you to think 14:34:44 oklopol: Well, you don't show it much. 14:34:44 well i donreally sexist 14:34:47 't know if i'm 14:34:54 oklopol: and anyway you've never said anything as strong a statement as that before :P 14:35:02 oklopol: I think you just adopt controversial opinions because they're controversial 14:35:09 Phantom_Hoover: I asked AnMaster to guess! 14:35:17 PASCAL? 14:35:22 guess what? 14:35:24 alise, language? 14:35:27 Yes. 14:35:31 people who just adopt controversial opinions because they're controversial should be shot 14:35:32 alise, any hunts? 14:35:36 hints* 14:35:51 AnMaster: It's frightening for me. 14:35:59 alise, qbasic? 14:36:05 alise, COBOL? 14:36:11 alise: java? 14:36:11 I like QBASIC; why would that be frightening for me? 14:36:12 alise, C++? 14:36:14 Come on, think a little bit. 14:36:18 What's a language I really hate? 14:36:18 C#? 14:36:21 alise, erlang? 14:36:25 No, Erlang is fine. 14:36:26 VB? 14:36:30 What's a language I really DETEST? 14:36:36 alise, hm.... ook! 14:36:38 (Not you, Phanty.) 14:36:42 alise: i already _said_ java 14:36:48 AnMaster: I don't detest ook, there's not enough language to detest 14:36:51 oh wait 14:36:54 alise: php! 14:36:56 alise, java or vb then 14:36:57 oerjan: java is supremely shittily mediocre, not detestable 14:36:58 or php 14:37:00 php isn't even a language 14:37:03 For fuck's sake you retards 14:37:03 heh 14:37:04 it's C 14:37:11 ... 14:37:13 okay 14:37:16 What's so awful about C? 14:37:17 I thought you detested C++ 14:37:21 I despise C! 14:37:22 I alise and mearly disliked C 14:37:27 s/I / 14:37:31 mearly? 14:37:37 Merely* 14:37:38 c is horrible 14:37:46 alise, so if you detest C, how do you feel about C++ then 14:37:51 AnMaster: well the actual good C like the plan 9 folks do is alright 14:37:58 but I hate typical C-on-Unix bullcrap 14:38:07 C++ is just don't go there 14:38:07 What's wrong with that? 14:38:19 alise, hm 14:38:38 Phantom_Hoover: A few words, manual memory management is humanly impossible and a complete waste of time. If you think you can do it, wrong! You made a mistake. All this is unnecessary and we had machines that did GC on everything in the 80s, so isn't this fun? 14:38:49 manual memory management is bullshit 14:38:54 Well, yes/ 14:38:57 Also, the C standard library interestingly lacks a single function that operates on a real string data structure. 14:39:07 C is pointless unless you're writing madly low-level stuff. 14:39:09 Instead it gives you a bunch of badly-named memory management functions that behave weirdly on \0 characters. 14:39:11 the C standard library is retarded 14:39:15 Hence GNOME is also mad. 14:39:24 I love GObject, it's ludicrously insane 14:39:24 gnome is a fucking shithole 14:39:27 alise, I think manual memory management is quite feasible for some tasks 14:39:31 for other tasks, no 14:39:32 goobject sucks 14:39:34 they're writing more gnome stuff in vala nowadays 14:39:35 and c# 14:39:40 also oklopol is just parroting opinions but more strongly now 14:39:48 AnMaster: yeah maybe embedded programming. 14:39:49 oklopol is a fucking asshole 14:39:55 oklopol sucks dick 14:39:56 alise, exactly 14:39:58 * Phantom_Hoover ponders toying with KDE again 14:40:09 alise, and you need something for internal data structures of a GC 14:40:11 kde is ugly 14:40:14 alise: no 14:40:16 you can't GC the GC 14:40:19 quite obviously 14:40:27 that's where oklopol stops at, him sucking dick 14:40:31 alise, "it's GCs all the way down" yeah right 14:40:38 oklopol is a gay homosexual 14:40:41 C GCs are inherently conservative... which is lame 14:40:43 who sucks dick for a living 14:40:48 Yo dawg I heard you like GCs so we GCed your GC so you can GC while you GC 14:40:50 because he'd die without gay sex 14:40:51 and then walks home 14:41:03 aw crap 14:41:17 someone now hates me on irc 14:41:19 Also, the C standard library interestingly lacks a single function that operates on a real string data structure. <-- agreed. C strings are irritating 14:41:23 "Yo dawg I herd you like X so we put an X in your Y so you can X while you Y" has mutated by replacing Y with X. 14:41:26 It's been... specialised. 14:41:27 but they made kind of sense back when C was made 14:41:27 cheater99: who 14:41:29 cheater99: who? 14:41:32 haha 14:41:32 alise, memory wasn't cheap back then 14:41:38 i joked they're using technobabble and he made me his personal enemy #1 14:41:40 =( 14:41:42 AnMaster: pascal existed... even pascal strings are better 14:41:47 cheater99: Was it fax, perchance? 14:41:50 no 14:41:52 Everyone is fax's personal enemy #1. 14:41:53 alise, well, the non-fixed length ones are 14:41:55 someone from a galaxy far away 14:41:57 AnMaster: yes 14:41:59 alise, the fixed length ones are horrible 14:42:03 of course 14:42:07 no fax likes me 14:42:17 oklopol: only 'cuz you haven't called her a girl yet 14:42:18 alise, and iirc the fixed length was all that existed back then 14:42:21 but not 100% sure 14:42:21 or not responded to her immediately 14:42:23 i have 14:42:32 maybe she just wants to have sex with you then 14:42:40 i started talking to her in pm a lot when i heard she was a girl 14:42:51 -_ 14:42:54 she doesn't consider herself a girl :P 14:42:54 -_-* 14:43:05 ok now he doesn't hate me that much anymore 14:43:09 all that irc emotion 14:43:10 or at least when I said to AnMaster that she was m->f transgender which is what augur told me, she freaked 14:43:12 is overwhelming me 14:43:13 and yelled at me for 50 years 14:43:16 AnMaster: Anyway so I'm just going to write it as event-ish based code 14:43:20 what do i care, i enjoy conversations more if the other dude has a vagina. 14:43:27 AnMaster: and see if I can avoid serious string handling outside of the parser 14:43:29 oklopol: she doesn't 14:43:34 at least I'm 99% sure she hasn't had a sex change 14:43:48 alise, hm... BSD sockets? 14:43:53 for one, you need to have a psychological evaluation to make sure you are sane 14:44:00 okay 14:44:08 and (1) she is not sane (2) apparently she'd been to see psychologists before and just gave up on it 14:44:13 so what, she doesn't think she's a girl, and she has a dick 14:44:17 so... she's just a guy? 14:44:22 well clearly she thinks she's female in some sense 14:44:25 232.78M 76% 60.31kB/s 0:21:01 83.77kB/s 0:35:09 <-- sigh 14:44:28 since she prefers the pronoun she... I think 14:44:31 * AnMaster stabs slow connection 14:44:42 oklopol: it's a crazy ungendered person with a dick 14:44:43 also 14:44:44 have fun 14:44:48 that copy was strange 14:44:53 why does it have two times there 14:44:55 and such 14:44:57 AnMaster: hmm, come to think of it, ircds don't really handle strings at all 14:45:11 alise: well that's still closer to person with vagina than guy 14:45:13 :D 14:45:23 alise, they need to parse the message to figure out if it is a command, and such. Like JOIN or PRIVMSG 14:45:30 oklopol, a hole is a hole 14:45:43 alise, and for PRIVMSG they have to figure out where to send it 14:45:46 Come to think of it, Lisp was around when C was invented. 14:45:51 for other commands they need to parse the parameters too 14:46:12 AnMaster: yes, but beyond parsing 14:46:19 which can all be done in one go really, since most commands don't have in-parameter syntaxes 14:46:20 alise, oh and they need to construct a large number of strings to send to clients. like :alise!~alise@91.105.86.86 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but beyond parsing 14:46:26 (copied from raw log) 14:46:30 they don't have to construct them necessarily 14:46:32 it isn't your line 14:46:34 they can send them to the socket as they go 14:46:49 cheater99: i suppose 14:46:51 oklopol: well she used to identify as male, definitely 14:46:58 oklopol: so it's male->who knows? and they have a dick 14:47:02 have fun~ 14:47:04 alise, still some messages like PING/PONG, various stuff like gline reasons. Quit reasons. 14:47:07 hm 14:47:30 alise, also /map. (probably disabled for non-opers on here) 14:47:32 indeed it is 14:47:38 what does that do? 14:47:43 alise, well it shows a map of the spanning tree from the server you are on 14:47:46 in ascii 14:48:01 That sounds lovely^Whorrible. 14:48:17 Although I guess you'll hate this thing anyway since I don't plan to support any existing irc services 14:48:19 there's a person in #c on efnet 14:48:24 alise, quite useful for opers. For non-opers either it shows nothing or it is disabled 14:48:24 alise: she's also insane, i think that's even better than having a vagina 14:48:25 err that was in #c++ 14:48:30 oklopol: tru. 14:48:32 alise, no server linking? well sane move 14:48:40 server linking makes thing very complex 14:48:40 everyone started calling him/her/it arbitrary pronouns 14:48:42 AnMaster: not the same thing 14:48:48 if a guy was totally nuts i could probably have sex with him 14:48:51 AnMaster: you can link servers without supporting the special oper commands 14:48:54 that the services use 14:48:57 *special services 14:48:59 and then it got so big the ops got pissed off 14:49:04 and started banning anyone who did that lol 14:49:07 and if a girl was really smart i'd be like put ur clothes on 14:49:30 alise, hm? On most ircds they use standard ones but have some extra permissions basically 14:49:39 perhaps one or two special ones for services 14:49:46 * AnMaster checks inspircd server protocol docs 14:49:51 then why do ircds like ngircd say they need to add suppo for dervices to work 14:49:57 and why do services have their own modules, usually, in ircds 14:50:10 *support 14:50:11 *services 14:50:12 dervices :) 14:50:41 alise, also server<->server protocols for ircds are not standard. Well there exist a few that are used by several 14:50:45 but mostly not standard 14:50:55 so that explains " and why do services have their own modules, usually, in ircds" 14:51:04 hmm, fair enough 14:51:09 but isn't server linking... useful? :-) 14:51:12 alise, then there is the thing about /whois 14:51:18 * [alise] is logged in as alise 14:51:18 I can't imagine freenode running on one network -- but then I guess I won't be runnning Freenode any time soon 14:51:31 alise, a few small things like that need some sort of support from the ircd side 14:51:33 AnMaster: well, see, I'm going to do services by just having it be a plugin-type dealie 14:51:38 so that it can easily hook into /whois and the like 14:51:56 alise, well inspircd uses an m_services.so 14:51:59 if that is what you mean 14:52:14 I mean there will be no separate services package or server. 14:52:19 It'll just be a plugin for this one ircd. 14:52:20 ah 14:52:21 Simple. 14:52:29 alise, decentralised services? 14:52:40 AnMaster: I cannot imagine that working, at all :P 14:52:44 alise, you realise that would be quite a pain to handle if servers splits. 14:52:49 and netsplits do happen. 14:53:10 alise, I can imagine it working. It is just that it would be a PITA and conflict resolution would be quite insane 14:53:12 it can't link servers, remember? 14:53:19 or do you mean decentralised services 14:53:32 alise, the latter 14:53:39 oh wait 14:53:43 not link any servers? 14:53:47 not even "normal" ones? 14:53:51 as opposed to services 14:53:55 Well, yeah, that's even what you said. 14:54:06 alise, no server linking? well sane move 14:54:06 server linking makes thing very complex 14:54:14 ah 14:54:16 well I said that 14:54:19 I'm sure you can have a single ircd serving at least 7,000 online peeps if it's written well enough. 14:54:27 but then " but isn't server linking... useful? :-)" made me think you decided to do it anyway 14:54:33 I mean, it's not like any of this is computationally intensive, and the c10k problem is well-researched. 14:54:41 alise, thing is, avoiding race conditions in server protocol is like a black art 14:54:51 Yeah; I don't go for black art. 14:55:01 If I can't explain every line exactly I get upset and try and rewrite it. 14:55:12 alise, for example you need two timestamps for topic for conflict resolution to work properly after a netsplit 14:55:22 one for channel created and one for topic last changed 14:55:27 Why don't we just assume netsplits NEVER HAPPEN?! Yay!!!! 14:55:40 alise, and then it goes like: oldest channel created wins. If a tie, then newest topic change wins 14:56:02 alise, because they always happen. Network issues and so on. 14:56:16 It was a joke 14:56:20 ah 14:56:26 Assume a perfectly spherical cow, and a perfectly reliable network. 14:56:51 XD 14:57:46 So how do "most" event-based ircds do thangs? I'm just going to do it the obvious way -- you can set up callbacks on certain events/messages coming in from certain users, etc., in the server, and the handlers queue() up messages to be sent after they exit 14:58:03 a quick look at http://wiki.inspircd.org/InspIRCd_Spanning_Tree_1.2/Commands indicates there are a few service specific messages. Only a few are actually needed. SVSNICK is to handle nick already registered-auto rename 14:58:34 svshold too 14:58:49 oh and svsmode (for some services at least) 14:58:50 I'm considering making my "services" actually just commands 14:59:13 Like "/nick register password", except not /nick of course because that's taken. 14:59:14 alise, sane idea if you are not doing server linking yeah 14:59:28 One advantage of services users is that you can have them in their own tab 15:00:38 alise, well sure. But since they use notices to reply (RFC requires this actually, that is, automated replies should be NOTICE and you must not generate an automated reply when receiving a NOTICE, a way to block infinite loops) 15:00:56 uh didn't finish the sentence I see XD 15:01:00 I know about that rule, but that rule is a bit silly. 15:01:06 IRC bots using /notice is irritating in the highest. 15:01:09 well: ... they usually end up in #services for me 15:01:27 since services are all joined there. That is on networks where I am in there 15:01:35 Hmm... I wonder if clients handle a completely ludicrous hostname. 15:01:47 alise, you mean like the one freenode uses? 15:01:51 * [AnMaster] (~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster): AnMaster 15:01:53 ? 15:01:56 ": NOTICE ehird :AHAHAHA" 15:02:07 : ? 15:02:11 Empty hostname. 15:02:13 at the start I mean 15:02:14 ah 15:02:36 alise, no that isn't just empty host name. It is empty nick and ident too 15:02:38 So in XChat that would display as "-- AHAHAHA", presumably. 15:02:42 AnMaster: Ah, right. 15:02:43 hm 15:02:44 What about :@ 15:02:55 alise, eh. I have no clue. But I don't recommend it 15:03:05 alise, why not use server style notices 15:03:06 Why not? It would be useful for the server to send "useful" information to the client. 15:03:08 let me check how they are sent 15:03:15 Don't those go to the server tab in XChat? 15:03:18 That's what I'm trying to avoid. 15:03:31 Or do you mean :a.b.c NOTICE ... 15:05:02 >> :server.example.org NOTICE AnMaster :*** CHANCREATE: Channel #bar created by AnMaster!AnMaster@hostname.here 15:05:04 alise, like that 15:05:09 well the >> is from my raw log 15:05:13 showing it came from server 15:05:17 as opposed to being sent to server 15:05:21 Right, well, an empty domain name is perfectly valid 15:05:25 So : NOTICE should work fine. 15:05:39 alise, iirc it needs to be the server name sent to client on connect 15:05:44 for it to work properly 15:05:46 not 100% sure 15:06:00 Then :@ :P 15:06:08 alise, but sure, go ahead and try empty host name. It wouldn't surprise me if it broke 15:06:37 * [NickServ] (NickServ@services.): Nickname Services 15:06:41 So how about :@ircd.? 15:06:49 alise, no idea. I never tried it 15:06:56 nor do I have easy testing of it available 15:07:15 -!- enero has joined. 15:07:28 So, just to check, the I won't run into any serious problems with an event-based model based on adding callbacks to certain types of message that come in, plus queue()ing up messages to send after handlers exit? 15:07:41 alise, idea: write a "test bench" with netcat that just sends pre-written file to connecting clients 15:07:46 then test clients against that 15:08:11 guy i've never seen rings the doorbell "hi i'm your neighbor, left the keys at home, can i borrow your cellphone?" "okay, here" "thanks, i'll just go get the number and call" *vanishes* 15:08:52 alise, I have no idea. Worth a try I presume. Most ircds are single threaded and use non-blocking IO 15:08:57 congrats, you just gave away your cellphone 15:09:00 buy a new one 15:09:02 :D 15:09:17 i thought "wow if this is a hoax then damn it's clever" 15:09:22 and closed the door 15:09:24 I must remember that for all your insanity you are a little bit stupid 15:09:37 alise, with select() or whatever is available on platform that is better 15:09:49 AnMaster: of course 15:10:09 AnMaster: point is, though, you never need to block the handler until this message is sent 15:10:10 epoll, kqueue, /dev/poll, ... 15:10:15 queueing up stuff will always work? 15:10:19 but anyway, there's really no way to get robbed in finland 15:10:22 although otoh... what's the point 15:10:27 alise, hm? how do you mean? 15:10:40 as in 15:10:41 or stolen from 15:10:41 you do need to consider timed events, such as timing out old glines 15:10:44 a function in your ircd queue which does 15:10:48 this is a very boring country 15:10:56 queue(...) ==> append the message to an internal list 15:10:58 then when your handler exits 15:10:59 } 15:11:03 hm 15:11:03 the main loop goes through all queued messages 15:11:05 and sends them off 15:11:08 then does its select-ery again 15:11:11 well I guess that could work 15:11:19 will it have any advantages over immediate sending, though... 15:11:33 http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/ 1st edition unix 15:11:34 alise, of course, you will need to wake up sometimes even when queue is empty and there is no IO 15:11:40 it's simulatable! 15:11:43 such as timing out klines 15:11:56 and sending PING 15:11:57 * alise is almost tempted to say Meh, klines... who needs them 15:11:57 to clients 15:12:10 Meh, PING, who needs it. Freenode doesn't even kick you if you don't respond to pings. 15:12:16 alise, it does nowdays iirc 15:12:30 Well it didn't beforehand and that's good enough for me 15:12:30 after the switch from hyperion to charybdis 15:12:43 well, not charybdis, ircd-seven. Which is charybdis + a few patches 15:13:11 alise, it relied on tcp timeout indeed 15:14:19 So, now that I've the idea, I clearly must start on the most important part: the name. irked? 15:14:24 XD 15:14:51 alise, oh and bans. That is some fun string handling 15:14:58 *!*@*.foo.net 15:15:04 you need to do wild card matching there 15:15:07 "A language will not succeed without a good name. I have recently invented a very good name and now I am looking for a suitable language." --Knuth 15:15:47 alise, so yes there is some string handling outside parser. for glines/klines it is ident@host only. Nick doesn't come into it 15:15:55 still the wildcard thing 15:16:07 Or, maybe I'll just change everything so that it's better. 15:16:16 If it doesn't have an interface, it's free game! 15:16:21 alise, hm? 15:16:34 Well, nobody really uses an interface to ban, they do it manually. 15:16:37 /mode +b 15:16:42 But people use an interface to talk, join, invite, etc. -- an IRC client. 15:16:44 alise, and that has the wildcards 15:16:47 * #esoteric Banlist: Sun Apr 18 11:01:14 *!*email@*.dyn.optonline.net verne.freenode.net 15:16:49 So I can't change the latter, but I can change the former. 15:16:53 for example 15:16:53 Do you understand? 15:17:17 alise, you can't change the latter easily without breaking things. for example that ban list above was formatted by my client 15:17:27 don't look at the banlist then :PP 15:17:33 << MODE #esoteric +b 15:17:34 >> :verne.freenode.net 367 AnMaster #esoteric *!*checker@c-68-55-8-210.hsd1.md.comcast.net verne.freenode.net 1271581274 15:17:34 vs: 15:17:38 * #esoteric Banlist: Sun Apr 18 11:01:14 *!*checker@c-68-55-8-210.hsd1.md.comcast.net verne.freenode.net 15:17:58 -!- enero has left (?). 15:18:04 Fair enough. 15:18:09 how I love the numerics. At least there is a nice list for it somewhere 15:18:11 *looks* 15:18:13 Anyway, I don't think I need to worry about bans before I can get a connection going, do you? 15:18:37 alise, covers many (but not all) ircds: http://winchat.fyrenet.com/OPERINFO/IrcNumerics/IRC-2%20Numeric%20List.htm 15:18:48 and their conflicting uses 15:19:22 ~/work/2010-05/irked; so no matter how old it gets, it will always be from now. 15:19:33 mhm? 15:19:38 :-) 15:19:58 i one made an ircd just so my friend could run his irc bot more efficiently 15:20:14 *once 15:20:33 I once fucked a goat. 15:20:40 anyway it isn't like you need anything more than select() or poll(), if you want to be prudent split it out in a separate function with some add()/remove()/wait() API. Should be easy to replace with epoll or whatever later then 15:20:58 alise: no you didn't 15:21:13 AnMaster: select is easier to use at first right? 15:21:31 I'll just put select() in the main loop at first, then refactor it out into a separate function when I wish. 15:21:34 alise, hm iirc both of those messes up your data structure after each wait 15:21:40 unlike epoll and kqueue 15:21:40 But no ifdefs! 15:21:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:22:52 alise, the point of epoll and kqueue is that they don't send the list of fds to wait on to the kernel every time. The kernel stores a list that you can wait on. 15:23:05 and that also means they don't mess up your list so you have to rebuild it every time 15:23:11 So are they... easy to use? 15:23:12 which at least select() does iirc 15:23:19 alise, not too bad iirc 15:23:21 I'm amazingly lazy you see. 15:23:39 alise, why C then... 15:23:48 Because! It'll be event based, so it won't hurt, right? 15:23:49 lazy + C = NaN 15:23:56 Arithmetic hates you 15:24:01 alise, hah 15:24:12 alise, I'm using IEEE floating point 15:24:34 Precisely. 15:24:52 :D 15:25:12 IEEE is the devil's arithmetic. 15:25:18 alise, oh btw epoll can be either level or edge triggered 15:25:25 poll is level triggered 15:25:34 select is too iirc 15:25:42 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:25:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:25:54 What what or the what what? 15:25:55 that means it can return right away. Which you might want. epoll can be set to only return on change. 15:26:05 -!- MizardX has joined. 15:26:08 alise, what is your question? 15:26:30 No idea :P 15:26:37 * alise wonders whether to write it using CWEB. Literate programming! Nah. 15:26:45 alise, of course epoll is linux specific, kqueue is freebsd specific (and possibly other *bsd), /dev/poll is solaris 15:26:54 windows has something completely different again 15:27:13 * alise notes a big advantage of literate programming's blocks is that they can access variables where they appear, unlike functions. 15:27:18 poll and select are both fairly standard. Possibly excluding *BSD 15:27:46 alise, how do you mean? 15:27:47 also 15:28:02 s/Possibly excluding \*BSD/Possibly excluding Windows/ 15:28:05 weird typo 15:28:21 e.g. 15:28:23 parse_options(argc, argv); 15:28:28 whereas with literate programming you'd just say 15:28:31 <> 15:28:40 and later on the <> code could use argc and argv 15:28:44 (It's not goto; it's all rearranged before compiling) 15:29:22 ah 15:29:33 default: 15:29:33 fprintf(stderr, "You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!\n"); 15:29:34 exit(1); 15:29:46 I will hereby heartily accept dares of the form "keep this as your invalid-option message forever". 15:29:50 alise, do you still have functions in literate programming? 15:30:00 AnMaster: Yes; it's plain C in the end, of course. Well, or Pascal :-D 15:30:18 mm 15:30:26 But it has things like "macros" -- sort of like preprocessor macros but saner, for tiny little not-even-functions -- and the "blocks" which are the main thing, literate programming isn't just comments-by-default, 15:30:46 right 15:30:53 it's about being able to write your code in the order that it's relevant, so that you can talk about it, and then later say "Here's how we parse the options of the program" because the reader /does not need to know those details/ before understanding more about the program 15:31:01 alise, is the generated output readable btw? 15:31:05 AnMaster: I guess so. 15:31:07 Relatively. 15:31:16 Why would you want to, though? 15:31:28 well, debugging literate programming typos. 15:31:38 Anyway, you can sort of do blocks in regular C by predeclaring a function; but you have to manually pass around variables and can only have one return variable instead of changing others. 15:31:39 also I hope it uses #line as required 15:31:44 so you can get useful back traces 15:31:45 And it's more verbose to declare a function, and you have to under_score_your_name. 15:31:54 AnMaster: I don't think CWEB does. 15:31:55 alise, oh and could you use the "<>" thing in several places? 15:31:58 Maybe noweb does. 15:32:02 AnMaster: Yes. 15:32:12 alise, okay that could cause some confusion for back traces 15:32:43 I'm pretty sure it works fine :P 15:32:47 since it might be hard to figure out which case of using that code it was that crashed 15:32:55 You have this strange condition where you try and search for the problems first in everything. 15:33:08 hah 15:33:11 true I guess 15:33:41 * alise uses c99 so that he doesn't have to put (void) in function declarations 15:33:46 Stupidest thing ever, stupid! 15:33:49 what? 15:33:52 c89 you mean then 15:33:54 not c99 15:33:55 Nope 15:33:59 void foo(); <-- this is invalid in c89 15:34:22 alise, it means a K&R style function in C89 iirc 15:34:24 "Gee, how should we denote a function having no arguments?" "Uh... put void in there... void is like... nothingness..." [some time passes] "Wow, we were really fucking stoned last night. Hey, I wonder what we did to C? ...WHAT?" 15:34:54 so void means a function with no parameters in C89. while having nothing there means it isn't specified, like in K&R 15:35:04 iirc 15:35:10 But in C99, "void foo();" is the same as "void foo(void);" 15:35:12 I'm pretty sure. 15:35:28 might be a gcc warning still 15:35:36 not sure 15:36:24 Aw man, this doesn't work: 15:36:25 while ((int opt = getopt(argc, argv, "v")) != -1) { 15:37:09 * alise attempts to get \ae displaying on his terminal 15:37:24 Of course it's an IRC dmon, why wouldn't I print that? (Note: I am currently procrastinating) 15:37:36 thunderstorm 15:37:50 yes. 15:37:52 thunderstorm 15:38:27 Yay, it works. 15:38:29 \ae monospaced looks freaky. 15:40:20 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 15:49:27 ooooooooooooooooo 15:49:51 Wow, someone actually made a non-sucking package manager for OS X. 15:49:58 And oklopol disappears! 15:50:38 i just remembered package managers are boring --------> 15:57:01 ææææææææææææææææææææ 15:57:41 sht up 15:58:10 shat up? 15:58:21 shat up what? 16:00:59 some æs 16:01:27 * alise shatted 16:01:34 The past tense of the past tense of "shit". 16:02:32 (that works particularly well if you realize that norwegian æ is pronounced pretty close to the a in ass) 16:02:51 that;s what i thought you meant by "shat" 16:03:50 *shaet 16:03:52 anyway i meant shut 16:05:14 an ø would be closer for that 16:06:15 (the stereotypically bad norwegian english accent would pronounce shut with an ø) 16:07:40 hm even closer with british english, i presume 16:08:35 Sh uhh' t 16:09:14 the vowel sound is almost a schwa 16:09:46 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 16:12:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:13:33 Will someone *please* remove the dead link in the welcome message? 16:13:52 No. 16:13:58 It's tradition. 16:14:19 That's just an excuse for laziness. 16:15:34 dead link/ 16:15:37 ? 16:15:41 frappr 16:15:45 Phantom_Hoover: Yes it is. 16:16:06 But it's never worked while I've been on the channel. 16:17:08 Hello? 16:17:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit). 16:17:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:17:48 What was even on that page? 16:18:48 http://loremipsum.net/screenshots/fullpromote.jpg 16:18:52 Phantom_Hoover: a map with us folk 16:19:59 wow, Leeds held on for a while there... 16:20:21 Leeds? 16:20:33 Rugby League 16:20:40 Oh 16:20:46 -!- oerjan has left (?). 16:20:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:20:49 Challenge Cup quarter final 16:20:50 There's someone in another channel with the nickname Leeds 16:20:54 heh 16:21:57 * Sgeo_ thought void foo(); meant something stupid like a variable number of arguments? 16:22:24 Phantom_Hoover: done 16:22:59 now it gives a link to the wiki instead 16:24:21 oerjan: hey!! 16:24:25 You can't do that to our tradition! 16:24:55 NEENER NEENER 16:28:11 How light can desktop computers get? 16:28:36 well if they get too light they would float off 16:28:40 Sgeo_: () does indicate variable args. 16:29:22 i suppose you could glue them to the desktop to fix that 16:29:53 * Sgeo_ has a table that this laptop is currently resting on 16:30:04 I don't know if I'd trust it with a heavy computer 16:30:06 hey me too! 16:30:10 -!- oklopol has left (?). 16:30:10 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:30:29 Floating computers would be cool. 16:30:37 Sgeo_: probably about 4kg is the lower limit 16:30:53 and that's for all 4 main components (base unit, monitor, keyboard, mouse) 16:30:57 Sgeo_: () does indicate variable args. 16:30:57 not in c99 16:31:10 Oh right, keyboard 16:31:12 Oh. 16:31:15 pineapple: hmm, i think you are wrong 16:31:21 those holographic keyboard things are quite light aren't they? 16:31:21 * Sgeo_ is not sure how that will fit on the table 16:31:25 they're meant to be portable after all 16:31:29 yeah 16:31:33 keyboards are light, though 16:31:34 tiny tiny mouse = no weight 16:31:39 so that's not much of the total weight 16:31:44 pineapple: monitor... you can get tiny 8" "portable" monitors 16:32:03 the computer itself can be less than 1kg. 16:32:06 easy 16:32:12 (see: e.g. every lightweight laptop) 16:32:12 i was assuming something like a reasonable tft 16:32:16 yeah 16:32:20 Wait, how do you indicate "takes any args" in C99, then? 16:32:24 pineapple: then basically we're just measuring weight(tft) + epsilon :P 16:32:27 Phantom_Hoover: ... i think 16:32:29 Phantom_Hoover: ... 16:32:33 just like best practice in c89 16:32:40 int foo(int abc, int def, ...); 16:32:48 note you must have at least one argument when using varargs 16:33:01 I want a good gaming computer 16:33:19 And to indicate that it will take any old junk? 16:33:38 Sgeo_: 3kg then, likely 16:34:17 can a pointer to void be a valid argument to a function? 16:34:22 Phantom_Hoover: it's useless unless there's at least one argument to tell you how to understand the rest 16:34:34 (iiuc) 16:34:50 And for "ignore all arguments"? 16:35:11 * oerjan doesn't really know 16:36:51 Phantom_Hoover: any old junk? 16:36:52 you can't 16:37:05 a variadic function MUST have at least one argument. 16:37:08 or it is undefined behaviour 16:37:37 also, I'm pretty sure you have to process every argument before ending a variadic function, so you have to have e.g. either a terminator such as NULL or have the first argument be the number of following arguments 16:40:02 But how do you allow the function to take absolutely any arguments whatsoever? 16:40:36 You can't. 16:42:05 But it makes perfect sense in the context of x86 calling conventions. 16:42:09 if you need to process them all, then you can't 16:42:17 Although I'm not sure about other platforms. 16:44:21 Phantom_Hoover: tough shit, this is C, there are rules, albeit very few of them 16:44:29 if you want to work on only x86/gcc, write anything that compiles 16:44:44 char *foo(...) { return "Fuck you, C"; } 16:44:55 !c 16:45:18 !c char *foo(...) { return "Fuck you, C";} 16:45:19 Does not compile. 16:45:27 Compiler says no. 16:45:57 The new album from Radiohead; a sequel to "OK Computer"... the stunning, critically acclaimed... 16:46:00 COMPILER SAYS NO 16:54:57 !c char *foo() { return "Fuck you, C";} 16:55:47 so no output means it compiles? 16:56:20 !c char *foo(){return "Fuck you, C";} int main(){printf("%s\n", foo())} 16:56:21 yeah 16:56:21 Does not compile. 16:56:34 !c int fuck() { return 0; } int main() { fuck(1,2,3,"abc"); } 16:56:46 hmm may need a newline between functions 16:56:51 !c int fuck() { return 0; } int main() { fuck(1,2,3,"abc"); printf("Sex robots\n"); } 16:56:52 Sex robots 16:57:04 !c char *foo(){return "Fuck you, C";} int main(){printf("%s\n", foo());} 16:57:05 Fuck you, C 16:57:21 semicolon ;-) 16:57:22 !c char *foo(){return "Fuck you, C";} int main(){printf("%s\n", foo("FUCKING","POGO","STICKS","RRRRRRRRRRRRNGH"));} 16:57:23 Fuck you, C 16:57:25 !c char *foo(...){return "Fuck you, C";} int main(){printf("%s\n", foo());} 16:57:25 Does not compile. 16:57:30 Note that this is all undefined. 16:57:37 Passing a function more arguments than it takes? Yeah, undefined. 16:57:40 Good luck. Have fun. 16:58:21 !help c 16:58:22 Sorry, I have no help for c! 16:58:31 !which c 17:00:23 !cat `which c` 17:00:33 !ls 17:00:47 !sh ls 17:00:47 oh, that's the other bot 17:00:47 interps 17:01:19 !sh ls interps 17:01:20 1l 17:02:04 !sh ls interps/gcccomp 17:02:05 gcccomp 17:02:18 !sh cat interps/gcccomp/gcccomp 17:02:18 #!/bin/bash 17:02:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:03:01 ais523! 17:03:30 hi ais523 17:03:49 !c printf("test\n"); 17:03:51 test 17:04:06 hi 17:04:06 !c printf("test"); 17:04:08 test 17:04:10 !c printf("test\n") 17:04:11 test 17:04:16 pikhq: I lost in the second round in the Pokémon tournament, in the end 17:04:22 !c printf("test") 17:04:23 ais523: aw, bad luck! 17:04:23 test 17:04:34 ais523: ...so perl6 has * now, meaning... anything? apparently you can use it to select "any item of a list" or something 17:04:38 he had a pretty good team (RNGed like mine was), and outpredicted me on the second turn 17:04:40 does it pick a random element or something? 17:04:45 alise: * has meant "anything" for a while 17:04:56 so does @foo[*] work? 17:04:59 and it's a sort-of quantifier, in a sence 17:05:00 ais523: So wait, you game the RNG? 17:05:01 *sense 17:05:08 @foo[*] means "every element in @foo" 17:05:15 Phantom_Hoover: yes, in order to get the teams in the first place 17:05:35 the in-battle RNG hasn't been hacked, and anyway it would be impossible to control the seed in tournament conditions 17:06:18 Phantom_Hoover: http://shaym.in/apps/iv_checker if you're interested 17:06:21 I wrote that, although I'm not hosting it 17:07:03 basically you enter the stats you want and it says "set your game to such and such a date and time, start with a delay of such and such a time period, use the nth seed to get your Pokémon" 17:08:15 is there ? 17:08:17 @foo[?] = any elemnt 17:08:18 *element 17:08:44 is that cute or what http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs208.snc1/7535_159039461451_520306451_2810195_1099162_n.jpg 17:09:48 ais523: I'm trying to get it to give me the shittiest magikarp imaginable :( 17:10:01 alise: heh 17:10:04 cheater99: More than a little creepy. 17:10:23 what's creepy? 17:10:25 * Sgeo_ has never played Pokemon stuff (except Pokemon Snap, with a friend, a long time ago) 17:10:35 But I have read books (again, a long time ago) 17:11:12 Phantom_Hoover? 17:11:30 alise: I think * means both and you can use any() or all() to switch 17:11:34 cheater99: That's taken from Facebook, as far as I can tell. 17:11:40 yes 17:11:41 and? 17:11:44 what's creepy? 17:11:55 lol 17:12:01 It's just... 17:12:13 well? 17:12:14 ais523: I want IVs from Stats right? 17:12:25 alise: probably the other way round 17:12:27 set all the IVs to 0 17:12:31 and it'll give you the minimum stats 17:12:38 ais523: tried that, it didn't give me any RNG options 17:12:52 alise: what nature did you set? 17:12:58 most natures are impossible with any given set of IVs 17:13:01 it's one of the way you hack-check 17:13:08 e.g. a flawless Pokémon has to be either Modest or Timid 17:13:16 unspecified characteristic right? 17:13:16 there's probably a similar restriction on an anti-flawless Pokémon 17:13:19 alise: right 17:13:24 you don't care about that 17:13:29 nor hidden power, probably 17:13:32 yay 17:13:43 brave 0-level 0-hp 0-atk 0-def 0-spa 0-spd 0-spe brave(! :D) magikarp 17:14:00 wait no 17:14:10 Seed 5DD69706, delay 12238, frame 7 gives hp 10, atk 5, def 5, spa 5, spd 5, spe 4 17:14:15 that's rubbish :(( 17:14:22 that's close to the minimum possible 17:14:28 (brave raises atk and reduces spe) 17:14:32 ah 17:14:34 * alise tries other natures 17:14:41 all natures are either neutral 17:14:44 or raise one stat and drop one 17:14:53 docile gives hp 10, all others 5 17:14:55 which is worse 17:15:02 brave is the worst possible, then 17:15:06 if its atk boost isn't doing anything 17:15:07 hasty gives all 5 except def=4 17:15:12 then you may as well factor in the spe or def drop 17:15:23 also, 12238 is a painfully high delay 17:15:36 given that 60 is one second, and 3600 is one minute 17:15:41 you'd be waiting for ages on the title screen 17:15:59 i cannot believe you people would rather talk about pokemon than hot chicks 17:16:03 (I have an irrational fear of Perl and PHP) 17:16:03 NEVER 17:16:03 EVER 17:16:03 PUT PHP AND PERL INTO THE SAME SENTENCE 17:16:09 :() 17:16:36 Sgeo_, what about perl php and coldfusion? 17:16:37 Sgeo_: heh 17:16:39 ais523: so skip ahead with a simulator 17:16:42 dur 17:16:48 php is just a nice invention to keep the dumbasses away from perl 17:16:52 alise: that would defeat the point of controlling the RNG 17:16:55 anyway 3.399{4r} minutes isn't so bad 17:17:10 the problem is being accurate to 1/60 of a second after that long 17:17:13 ais523: so what's the absolute worst pokemon I can get, do you know? 17:17:21 presumably not a magikarp, if it has a whole 10hp and ~5 stats 17:17:26 hmm, there are some that are very bad 17:17:32 if you just care about low stats, try sunkern 17:17:35 magikarp has the advantage of having no attacks 17:17:40 lol 17:17:44 I actually have a book on ColdFusion somewhere 17:17:47 why do you need the worst ever pokemon? 17:17:47 alise: Unown has fewer 17:17:47 (attacks are generally considered bad because they can be used to hurt the other pokemon, which might upset it) 17:17:53 although it deals damage 17:17:53 ais523: Wut? 17:17:57 cheater99: KINDNESS 17:18:00 In the new ones magikarp learns tackle, doesn't it? 17:18:01 alise: Unown learns a grand total of 1 attack 17:18:01 is that actually an objective? 17:18:05 as opposed to Magikarp's 4 17:18:07 in the game? 17:18:09 (splash, tackle, bounce, flail) 17:18:11 Magikarp used to learn only Splash 17:18:15 Deewiant: nope 17:18:20 it's learnt Tackle at lv.15 forever 17:18:22 ais523: what's the difference between 1, j and k 17:18:26 Hmm 17:18:31 alise: depends on how you're catching the Pokémon 17:18:45 wait, magikarps aren't always completely useless? 17:18:47 in the case of Magikarp, you're probably fishing, so J on Diamond/Pearl/Platinum and K on HeartGold and SoulSilver 17:18:51 oh my god I want a level 100 magikarp now <3 17:18:59 ais523: pah, what about us sapphire owners 17:19:01 alise: there's a Magikarp sweep on Youtube somewhere 17:19:03 alise: Magikarp can also learn Surf. 17:19:08 Darn, you're right, it did 17:19:11 admittedly i have one of the ds ones 17:19:11 And Surf is actually a *good* move. 17:19:12 I forget which 17:19:12 alise: Sapphire uses method 1, 2, 3, or 4, but the reasoning behind which hasn't been determined yet 17:19:15 diamond i think 17:19:16 pikhq: it doesn't 17:19:21 I thought it only learned Splash back in Gen 1 17:19:23 Gyarados does, Magikarp doesn't because it doesn't learn TMs and HMs 17:19:29 ais523: ... Wait, a water type that doesn't learn surf? 17:19:34 God damn Magikarp sucks. 17:19:38 Well, Kakuna and company only learn Harden 17:19:45 what's the max stats for the various ones? I know little of pokeman's workings 17:19:50 and Unown only learns Hidden Power 17:19:56 Hidden Power's an attack, though 17:20:00 Kakuna's incapable of doing any damage 17:20:01 HIDDEN BECAUSE IT CAN'T DO SHIT LOL 17:20:02 alise: you can look up the max stats for a particular Pokémon 17:20:07 alise: I'm pretty sure the breeding mechanic lets you get a Magikarp with other moves. 17:20:10 Deewiant: Kakuna can be tutored Bug Bite, IIRC 17:20:16 pikhq: it's restricted to Bounce 17:20:20 four moves total 17:20:21 ais523: Not in Gen 1, at least according to Bulbapedia 17:20:23 (not positive, though, because I never tried) 17:20:31 http://www.smogon.com/rb/pokemon/magikarp/moves 17:20:34 ais523: God damn Magikarp sucks. 17:20:36 two in gen 1, splash and tackle 17:20:42 flail came up later, bounce is a tutor move IIRC 17:20:45 from gen 4 17:20:47 http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Magikarp_(Pok%C3%A9mon)#Pok.C3.A9dex_entries_2 HAHAHAHA the pokedex fucking hates magikarp 17:20:56 You're a horribly weak, pathetic Pokemon! Die the fuck out already! 17:21:01 alise: which pokedex? 17:21:05 all of them 17:21:08 click the link, it has them all 17:21:09 ais523: There's also that one move you get when you're out of PP. :) 17:21:10 Before gen 4 Kakuna learned only Harden; but yeah, in 4 it can be tutored stuff 17:21:13 ah, Smogon 17:21:19 It evolves into Gyarados starting at level 20. 17:21:22 you can avoid evolving right? 17:21:25 well, yes 17:21:27 Yes. 17:21:28 but can you get a level 100 magikarp 17:21:30 if you want a bit of fun, http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/kakuna 17:21:32 and yes, you can, 17:21:33 *can 17:21:34 Yes. 17:21:39 WOOT 17:21:57 someone complete the game with just ridiculously overpowered magikarps, please 17:21:58 Meh, gen 4 17:22:03 * pikhq was fond of level 100 Gyarados, though 17:22:08 Deewiant: it can have poison sting and string shot if it evolved from a weedle 17:22:10 even in gen 1 17:22:13 FUCK GYRADOS magikarp is superior 17:22:14 alise: I shall in a bit. 17:22:36 When I sit down and play Pokemon Green. 17:22:39 ais523: True enough 17:22:53 I just love the strategy analysis for kakuna, anyway 17:23:02 I think it was originally a reaction to a bout of trolling 17:23:11 where someone repeatedly claimed kakuna should have an analysis 17:23:14 and grew from there 17:23:36 pikhq: Bah, oldschool is for wimps 17:23:44 Does metapod have one too? :-P 17:23:46 Sapphire was the best Pokemon game frrlz (I assert this because I have it) 17:23:51 OH MY GOD level 100 metapod 17:23:56 VERY YES. 17:24:06 Metapod is essentially equivalent to Kakuna 17:24:31 Deewiant: I don't think so 17:24:44 Damn, Kakuna's Bug/Poison 17:24:44 magikarp / metapod / kakuna TEAM OF WINNERS 17:24:52 Okay, so they're a bit different 17:24:56 But they have the same moveset 17:25:04 Eeep 17:25:05 pronun=Ka-KOO-nuh| 17:25:07 Ummm... 17:25:18 Oh, wait, this isn't bulbapedia 17:25:22 It's some wikia thing 17:25:24 "With Python, you might be forced to use nano!" "When?" "If, say, the customer doesn't have vim installed" 17:25:24 other humorous analyses include http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/unown and http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/luvdisc 17:25:37 Sgeo_: what 17:25:41 luvdisc is amusing because it's very fast and its other moves are pathetic 17:25:44 *other stats 17:25:49 and its only good moves are those that raise Speed 17:25:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:26:06 Magikarp 17:26:07 Swift Swim 17:26:07 Speed doubles in rain. 17:26:08 Oh that's just greaT 17:26:09 *great 17:26:38 yes, it's actually a useful ability 17:27:14 "Luvdisc is great if you're playing with Battle Timeout, because its mere presence should cause your opponent to laugh at it for so long that you win the match." 17:27:21 >_< 17:27:29 xD 17:27:43 * Sgeo_ knows little about Pokemon 17:27:52 You can teach it surf and ice beam and stuff, it can't be bad 17:27:57 * alise remembers his automatic-virtual-server-for-one-command thing 17:27:58 Except that there are Pokemon named Mew and Mewtoo/Mew2/? 17:28:16 Sgeo_: play the pokemon games immediately. 17:28:17 Sgeo_: ... 17:28:19 also, it's mewtwo. 17:28:24 And you're how old? 17:28:25 20? 17:28:26 ミュウツー 17:28:38 HOW DID YOU NOT PLAY POKEMON 17:28:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:29:08 I never had a handheld game thing 17:29:19 HOW DID YOU NOT PLAY POKEMON 17:29:20 I only played it on an emulator 17:29:41 Does Pokemon Snap count? 17:29:58 NO 17:30:18 Sgeo_: Buy a DS. 17:30:22 Get a Pokemon game. 17:30:25 Play; endlessly. 17:30:36 Buying a DS just for Pokémon is a bit of a waste IMO 17:30:49 Deewiant: I bought a GBC just for Pokemon. 17:31:01 I tend to get bored of the Pokémon games pretty quickly 17:31:05 It then got used for other games, but still. 17:31:17 Deewiant: The DS is good anyway, so eh 17:31:18 Well. 17:31:20 It's not so bad, at least. 17:31:26 I had an obsession about that game... 17:31:29 You could get a GBA really cheap though I bet 17:31:32 Although I'd get a GBA SP 17:31:37 the GBA's lack of a backlight was stupidity personified 17:31:38 Well, if you can think of uses for it / other games to play, sure 17:31:42 an original DS should be pretty cheap by now 17:31:50 alise: nothing before the GBA had a backlight either 17:31:54 yeah but i have a soft spot before the gba sp :P 17:31:56 * pikhq has played through Blue and Gold at least 3 times each. 17:32:00 ais523: but the gba had more colour detail 17:32:03 so it had more darker areas 17:32:06 for e.g. grass and stuff 17:32:08 sorta 17:32:16 What about the original GB? :-P 17:32:23 Not much colour detail there 17:32:25 ais523: Uh... Game Gear? 17:32:29 Or, you know, colour at all 17:32:39 I meant, no Nintendo portable 17:32:45 rather than nothing in general 17:32:53 Uh, the Gameboy Light? 17:32:55 Slight disadvantage to the GB: Tetris and Pokemon, ok, you can throw it away now 17:33:05 alise: Zelda! 17:33:15 pikhq: Buy an SNES 17:33:19 Final Fantasy Adventure 17:33:22 (aka Mystic Quest) 17:33:29 Metroid II 17:33:30 alise: Also true, but the Zelda games for it were good. 17:33:34 Ok fine you win 17:33:40 pikhq: the GBA had a little attachable light too that pointed at the front 17:33:43 powered by its battery 17:33:45 ais523: it was shit, though. 17:33:49 yes 17:33:53 ais523: The Gameboy Light was a backlight Gameboy Pocket. 17:33:57 it was good enough to play in the dark, but still awful 17:34:00 My dad found a PSP that he might give me. Can Pokemon games run on that? 17:34:07 no, wrong company 17:34:10 Sony rather than Nintendo 17:34:15 Sgeo_: Yes, emulator. 17:34:17 Can it emulate? 17:34:38 Yes. 17:34:40 The PSP is shitty though 17:34:48 Quite heavy, and uh... rubbish controls... and rubbish everything... 17:34:50 and it sucks dick... 17:35:39 Sgeo_ (or anyone else here): I'll play you on a simulator if you like 17:35:59 I'll play! VirtualBoy Advance doesn't work on Linux right? 17:36:02 Would doing that involve anything illegal? 17:36:06 Sgeo_: Yes. 17:36:17 alise: It works through wine IIRC 17:36:21 Although ais523 probably legally scanned his ROM or something 17:36:30 alise: I mean the ones that do the game mechanics separately 17:36:37 which avoid copyright trouble because they're a reimplementation 17:36:37 ais523: Oh. Lame 17:36:39 rather htan the original code 17:36:40 *than 17:36:43 Would doing whatever involve something that could easily make me get caught (and I count BitTorrent in that) 17:36:48 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 17:36:52 Sgeo_: at least my way's legal 17:36:53 Oh, those exist? Should've guessed I suppose 17:36:59 lol @ bittorrent easily get caught 17:37:01 Deewiant: at least three 17:37:13 sometimes sgeo is funny. othertimes i just want to bash my head against a brick wall 17:37:17 ais523: http://birdiesoft.dk/software.php?id=2 high-tech 17:37:19 Although I guess for more obscure things, the liklihood is low 17:37:26 the likelihood is ~0 17:37:35 bittorrent has other nasty side effects 17:37:42 like getting your ISP to throttle you for the rest of the mont 17:37:43 *month 17:37:48 for using too much bandwidth 17:37:50 only if you have a shitty isp 17:37:56 Cablevision 17:37:56 any isp that does that is irrevocably evil 17:38:06 don't know if it does that 17:38:17 Oh, and I can't open any ports on the router 17:38:52 alise: My ISP is irrevocably evil. 17:39:19 Though it's a function of "you used too much bandwidth; no bandwidth for you!" rather than "you used Bittorrent; no bandwidth for you!" 17:39:39 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:39:42 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 17:40:06 MOAR LIEK A "DYS"FUNCTION LOL 17:41:15 is bandwidth expensive or something? why do people throttle it? 17:41:32 probably because they don't have enough for all their customers 17:42:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:43:09 -!- melnibo_ has joined. 17:43:10 Mathnerd314: US ISPs prefer to make 0 improvements on infrastructure. 17:43:21 "It was good enough in '95, it's good enough now!" 17:44:10 what's the language code for latin? 17:44:19 la 17:44:21 & is it correct to mark Lorem Ipsum filler in it? :-) 17:44:32 lorem ipsum isn't latin any more 17:44:35 Only if it's Latin instead of pseudo-Latin 17:44:37 yes, but it's not english either 17:44:43 and there's no pseudo-la :-) 17:44:52 it's a latin poem, but its letter frequency distribution was changed to that of English 17:45:02 like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English 17:45:06 I'd mark "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit." as Latin 17:45:25 but I guess if even the spelling is wrong... 17:46:09 dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit 17:46:25 alise: that's great filler 17:46:27 so some words are actually intact... "do" is dropped from one word, and "ng" added to another 17:46:37 so it's like 17:46:39 the one you'd mark as English, that is 17:46:44 -!- melnibo_ has left (?). 17:46:54 Bobbington eathly worked EXCREM un;to 17:47:04 ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language... 17:47:57 `addquote like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English alise: that's great filler ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language... 17:48:07 167| like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English alise: that's great filler ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language... 17:48:17 hey, usually we put two spaces before the next message! :P (kidding) 17:49:09 grr, stupid parsers 17:53:57 WHY WON'T YOU WORK! 17:59:51 * Sgeo_ monadically parses alise 18:00:01 I'll monad your parsec 18:01:55 alise, http://torrentfreak.com/hurt-locker-makers-sue-5000-bittorrent-users-100529/ 18:02:33 alise: btw, you can hover your mouse over the delay in that IV checker to give you the corresponding time and date 18:02:44 Sgeo_: so basically they sued a ton of people without actually knowing shit about them 18:02:45 makes sense 18:03:50 lolol@hurt locker 18:04:41 Cupidtino is a beautiful new dating site created for fans of Apple products by fans of Apple products! Why? Diehard Mac & Apple fans often have a lot in common personalities, creative professions, a similar sense of style and aesthetics, taste, and of course a love for technology. We believe these are enough reasons for two people to meet and fall in love, and so we created the first Mac-inspired dating site to help you find other Machearts around you. 18:04:41 Cupidtino will launch in June 2010 exclusively on Apple platforms Safari, iPhone and iPad apps. Its time to share the love. 18:04:50 It's ... it actually seems to be real 18:04:55 It is 18:04:59 It's been in the WSJ 18:05:12 I can believe it 18:05:25 ahahaha 18:05:31 "Is it wrong for a straight guy to *want* to watch Sex & the City?" --@cupidtinoCA 18:06:19 http://online.wsj.com/media/cupidtino_D_20100507111722.jpg 18:08:33 How do you release something exclusively for Safari? 18:08:54 cleverly 18:09:39 Also, Safari on Windows exists. 18:11:04 rofl 18:11:53 setting something up so it works on Safari yet not, say, Chrome or Epiphany seems tricky without resorting to tricks like user-agent sniffing 18:13:29 alise: what do you think about Apple overtaking Microsoft in market capitalization? 18:13:37 ofc, it's not the only measure of success, but I'm pretty amazed at it 18:13:43 ais523: You're joking. 18:13:54 nah, it was all over the tech news 18:14:04 Well, nobody likes MS much. 18:15:08 * Sgeo_ is using their Operating System 18:15:23 http://online.barrons.com/article/SB127508624930598443.html for instance 18:15:45 also interesting is that Apple now has the second-highest market cap of any publicly-traded US company, after ExxonMobil 18:15:55 quite a few people think it's a bubble, but it's still surprising 18:16:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:17:17 so 18:17:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:17:22 i have just found a hot chick on facebook 18:17:26 except 18:17:31 she has the same last name as i do 18:17:40 WHAT DO 18:17:53 Change your name. 18:17:56 leave Facebook 18:18:35 I rarely add people I don't know IRL to Facebook 18:18:42 I'm not even a member of Facebook 18:18:46 cheater99: I hear they don't call it incest any more 18:18:47 that site is scary 18:19:26 No, this is scary: http://sshkeygen.com/ 18:19:53 ais523: why scary? i just think it's pointless 18:20:11 oklopol: have you seen what they do with the information stored there? 18:20:19 also, how they put a huge amount of pressure on people not to leave 18:21:40 Should I admit that I just checked alise's profile on Reddit? 18:22:16 Why? 18:23:05 You mentioned Steve Pavlina 18:23:21 He's the guy who took down Dexterity Games to run some self-improvement articles 18:23:25 iirc 18:23:35 Yep 18:23:37 mentioning Steve Pavlina makes Sgeo check your Reddit profile? 18:23:58 apparently 18:24:08 all I know about steve pavlina is that his forums are shit and that he polyphased successfully. 18:24:19 * Sgeo_ misses dexterity.com 18:24:22 I don't have a Reddit profile, so it might be hard for him or her to do so 18:25:22 Sgeo_ is an it 18:27:07 years of habit on the Internet often give me a sudden burst of revulsion when I use a gendered pronoun for anything 18:27:27 " also, how they put a huge amount of pressure on people not to leave" <<< what do you mean? 18:27:44 * Sgeo_ just uses Spivaks 18:28:01 ais523: why not just use "they"? 18:28:24 * Sgeo_ ponders how best to force ais523 to use a gendered pronoun 18:28:32 oklopol: if you leave Facebook, it goes and tells all your friends you defriended them 18:28:43 ais523, it does? 18:28:44 :) 18:28:48 and that's considered a really bad thing by most Facebook users 18:28:55 People generally don't know when someone defriends someone 18:29:04 Sgeo_: you know if someone defriends /you/ 18:29:09 Unless they're using [say] a Greasemonkey script 18:29:11 ais523, really? 18:29:15 No, no I don't 18:29:34 Sgeo_: I don't know this from personal experience 18:29:36 I have NEVER gotten a notice that I was defriended 18:29:44 well, maybe nobody's ever defriended you 18:29:45 Even though I'm certain it's happened 18:29:51 it's not a common thing to do on Facebook, it seems 18:29:52 alise: You're ehird on Reddit? 18:29:59 There's a Greasemonkey script for it 18:30:09 Yes. 18:30:22 it would be obvious anyway, when they weren't marked as a friend when you tried to view their profile info 18:30:25 "Whoever after due and proper warning shall be heard to utter the abominable word "Frisco", which has no linguistic or other warrant, shall be deemed guilty of a High Misdemeanor, and shall pay into the Imperial Treasury as penalty the sum of twenty-five dollars." --Norton I of the United States, Protector of Mexico 18:30:26 ais523: I don't recall getting a message when I was defriended. 18:30:29 ais523, yes 18:30:36 (although lately, Facebook by default shows all your info to everyone regardless of if they're friends or not...) 18:30:38 Sorry, *NORTON I, Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico 18:30:40 But that's not the same as getting a notice 18:31:05 alise: That iw.net link is *not* the worst-designed website. 18:31:12 Phantom_Hoover: Please see parent comment 18:31:24 It's Archimedes Plutonium's website. 18:31:29 The whole universe is a plutonium atom, as we all know. 18:31:44 wait, this is #esoteric, not #esoteric! 18:31:49 Archimedes Plutonium? 18:31:53 Oh 18:31:59 Hmm, the parent comment's website is pretty awful. 18:31:59 <3 Emperor Norton 18:32:06 theories like that are the wrong sort of esoteric 18:32:37 ais523: you're the wrong sort of esoteric 18:32:40 (Bella De Soto's is still the worst) 18:33:00 It's gone DOWN! 18:33:05 NOOOO! 18:33:11 * Phantom_Hoover checks the Archive. 18:33:13 hmm, now I'm vaguely wondering if there are any websites which look fine and have no major problems, apart from being designed completely awfully 18:33:18 "When, during the Second Italo-Abyssinian War, the League accused Benito Mussolini's soldiers of targeting Red Cross medical tents, Mussolini responded that Ethiopians were not fully human, therefore the human rights laws did not apply." 18:33:21 (don't link me to one if you know one) 18:33:45 Even the music of the bridal site is ugly 18:33:53 alise: surely the Red Cross weren't necessarily Ethiopian? Even discarding the premises being wrong, the reasoning is also wrong 18:34:15 Oh, that may have been because another tab was open 18:34:24 Yeah, not a good site to browse with tabs 18:34:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nort10d.jpg I'd love one of these. 18:35:45 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:36:53 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Frank_chu_20060423.JPG Okay sir 18:37:27 -!- pikhq has set topic: This room formed in honor of Norton the First, by the grace of God Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:37:44 His signs change from day to day, and tend to go through syntactically-similar phases, with the phrase "12 Galaxies" being his trademark and a constant presence in the signs. In June 2007, Chu broke from this tradition and started replacing this with "85 Galaxies"[14], "130 Galaxies"[15], "800 Galaxies"[16], then "1000 Galaxies"[17]. At the 2007 Castro Halloween Party, Chu's sign claimed "7,645,000 Galaxies", at MacWorld 2008 he was up to 75,850,000[18], and 18:37:45 at the Iraq War protest on March 19, 2008 he was up to 8,685,000,000[19]. 18:37:48 OH GOD WHEN WILL THE GALAXIES END 18:37:59 Perhaps make esolang with mahjong tiles, or tarot cards, or Washizu mahjong tiles 18:38:10 hmm, not a bad idea 18:38:21 mahjong would work quite well 18:38:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: This room formed in honor of Norton the First, by the grace of God Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:38:34 Oops. 18:38:44 Phantom_Hoover: what did you change? 18:38:51 Nothing. 18:38:54 Nothing 18:38:58 Oops. 18:39:00 thought so, so I was wondering what happened 18:39:09 it should be impossible to change the topic to itself... 18:39:18 -!- alise has set topic: This room formed in honor of Norton the First, by the grace of God Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:40:59 ais523: I don't know exactly how, but maybe with tenpai operator and so on, and also, perhaps the different tile can also correspond to different command too, or maybe something else 18:41:44 Washizu mahjong means some of the tiles are transparent (I actually have a mahjong set like this, although it first appeared in manga before anyone actually made them) 18:42:18 In fact, I own three sets of mahjong tiles 18:42:28 are the gloves really necessary? 18:43:10 In Washizu mahjong the gloves are necessary, otherwise you can feel the tiles by your hand before you pick them up, and you can cheat 18:43:27 can they actually be felt? 18:43:54 alise, what do they call it then? ^_^ 18:44:04 Yes, they are engraved, they can be felt 18:45:40 accurately? 18:45:55 If you are good at it, yes 18:46:08 Some people can 18:46:10 are all 3 of your sets japanese? 18:46:44 No, only two are Japanese. One is for American mahjong. (I never play American mahjong however, but if someone wanted to play American mahjong, I could do so) 18:47:03 ehh... 18:51:10 * Sgeo_ should probably shave at some point 18:51:35 Do you like to play solitaire card? I have invented a few (including a cardset to go with it), but I have not typed a description of the rules yet 18:51:45 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/ 18:51:53 Perhaps I should post screenshots of the cardsets and stuff 18:52:35 Biggest problem with colored nicks: When the nicks are the same color, it can be confusing. If all nicks were the same color, I'd be paying attention to each line's nick, and not have this problem 18:52:41 I thought zzo38 was ais523 18:52:50 There is 1 cardset and 6 games so far (in 2 ruleset files, each containing 3 games, which are similar with each-other in the same file) 18:53:03 Sgeo_: I don't see how you can possibly muddle zzo38 with anyone else in existence 18:54:04 ais523: Perhaps because of the digits at the end of "zzo38" and "ais523"? I don't know. Also, I am not cloaked (they won't give me the cloak I ask) 18:54:36 Sgeo_: zzo38 is a most unique individual. Hard to mistake. 18:55:00 -!- ais523 has changed nick to zzo523. 18:55:34 BRB 18:55:50 The cloak I ask is forward DNS cloak, and they don't do forward DNS cloaks here. 18:56:24 (The default when connecting is reverse DNS) 18:56:54 -!- coppro has joined. 18:56:55 -!- zzo523 has changed nick to ais523. 18:57:02 -!- AnMaster has joined. 18:57:47 if you want to see who zzo38 is, just look for someone awesome 18:58:39 alise: I doubt that will work, there is too many of everything like that 18:58:49 name another awesome person in this room 18:59:06 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:59:17 alise? 18:59:46 at least half of us are awesome in one way or another 18:59:54 but I don't think anyone's awesome in quite the same way zzo38 is 19:00:05 except zzo38 of course 19:00:06 ok then, to figure out who zzo38 is look for someone who's zzawesome 19:02:25 GRR!! PARSERS ARE BROKEN 'N SHIT 19:03:13 If you want to see who I am, look for the guy with Pocket Monster Philosopohical Level. I might be the only guy that has one of those! 19:03:20 Pohical. 19:03:31 ais523: oh wow, you should play zzo38 19:03:32 now 19:03:53 ever noticed how slow a gear ratio of 576:1 is? 19:04:06 given reasonable input speeds for lego motors 19:04:06 ever noticed how slow a gear ratio of 1,000,000:1 is? 19:04:18 s/Philosopohical/Philosophical/ 19:04:23 Ever noticed how impractical a gear ratio of infinity:1 is? 19:04:24 alise, well that is a lot harder to achieve in lego. 19:04:38 pikhq, hm, yeah hard to calculate on 19:04:38 pi:1 is just irrational HAW HAW HAW HAWH AWH IUAWHE IUAWHIUSFODJGKLSHGVKRLEGJH KLSE OIFOISDGH KSHJDSFL;KJKG 19:04:40 never noticed it before 19:05:16 alise, it is just that it is easy to connect two 24:1 together, which gives you 576:1 19:05:41 slab serifs are lovely <3 19:06:01 I oughtta use Museo Slab for a reason 19:06:04 erm 19:06:05 I oughtta use Museo Slab for something 19:06:21 If you're going to talk about typography again, I'm afraid I'll have to leave. 19:08:02 Phantom_Hoover: Then leave. People like you are why much modern text burns to look at. 19:08:05 BURNS. 19:08:27 My handwriting burns. 19:08:34 yeah, idiots like you are the reason some people are still using non-monospace fonts 19:08:46 Computer typography is all fine compared to that. 19:09:09 Hm 19:09:11 oklopol: CJK languages work best with monospace. 19:09:16 I think I'm going to watch some SG-1 19:09:20 CJK? 19:09:21 Nay, *should not ever be anything but monospace*. 19:10:00 Vague grouping of Asian countries, including China, Japan, and Korea. 19:10:21 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:11:29 Been using monospace scripts forever. 19:12:08 Wait, what did I do? 19:12:39 You RAPED my EYES 19:12:49 I am utterly indifferent to all matters typographical. 19:13:04 Utterly indifferent? 19:13:13 So you see nothing wrong with using nothing but MS Comic Sans? 19:13:21 OK, not utterly. 19:14:32 But I don't see why non-monospace fonts are idiocy. 19:15:10 oklopol is accusing typography nuts of keeping non-monospace fonts around. 19:15:35 Oh, why? 19:15:39 * Sgeo_ goes to watch the SG-1 pilot 19:16:18 Let's be honest: most monospace fonts look... Odd. 19:16:27 Indeed. 19:17:27 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 19:17:36 just accept oklopol is crazy 19:17:37 it's what i did 19:17:40 I am using monospace for IRC 19:18:28 Most people do. 19:18:48 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 19:18:51 I am reading Wikipedia in a non-monospace font. 19:19:03 OTOH, monospace fonts are good for some things. 19:19:13 Imagine, if you will, non-monospace Befunge. 19:19:51 Maybe you can invent such a thing as non-monospace Befunge. However you should have to use always a specific spacing otherwise it won't work 19:20:10 Dispace Befunge. Every character has one of two widths. 19:20:34 i use monospace everywhere i can, but i don't know how to convert pdf's to it 19:20:41 maybe alise can help me with that 19:20:52 Why would you use monospace for Wikipedia? 19:21:05 so that it's easier to read 19:21:06 pdftotext 19:21:19 non-monospaced text is a pain to read 19:21:21 Huh. 19:21:32 Uh... No, it's not? 19:21:43 uh, yes it is 19:21:45 maybe alise can help me with that 19:21:45 I refuse 19:21:50 pikhq: oklopol does not have normal human anatomy 19:21:51 :( 19:21:51 accept this 19:21:53 It's a pain to read if you're oklopol, it's not a pain to read if you're pikhq. 19:21:56 You're fucking kidding me. 19:22:09 pikhq just accept it 19:22:20 pikhq: i also like allcaps 19:22:28 SO DO I. 19:22:34 OKLOPOL: ANYWAY YES PDFTOTEXT. ALSO, MAY I SAY, 19:22:36 oklopol: YOU DO NOT HAVE A NORMAL VISUAL CORTEX 19:22:36 if you used small allcaps, that would be better than non-allcaps 19:22:44 THAT IF YOU ARE EVER IN POSSESSION OF A MICROSOFT WORD DOCUMENT, AND DESIRE TO READ IT IN MONOSPACED TEXT, 19:22:48 USE "NOWORD" 19:22:55 OR WHATEVER IT IS CALLED 19:22:58 IT WILL PLEASE YOU MOST GREATLY. 19:23:40 i never use word documents but good to know 19:24:18 OKLOPOL: WHAT ON EARTH? 19:24:50 what 19:26:00 WHAT IS WRONG WITH NON-MONOSPACE? 19:26:32 i's are too narrow 19:26:45 >>> 19:26:55 (THAT IS ... IN ALL CAPS.) 19:27:03 most letters are okay, but when i see an i, i throw up 19:27:12 ::: on my kb 19:27:25 I now added in screen-shots of the solitaire games http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/ 19:28:53 oklopol: ALL-CAPS works better in mono-space than non-mono-space in my opinion 19:29:09 yes X works better in mono-space 19:29:36 zzo38: your Deadfish Forth interpreter is not bug-for-bug compatible 19:30:15 oerjan: You may be right. I haven't tried to make it bug-for-bug compatible, however. (But fix it if you want to) 19:30:23 what does that mean+ 19:30:24 (It is wiki, so of course someone can fix it!) 19:30:24 ? 19:31:27 oklopol: the original deadfish (in C) was weird, and many of the interpreters try to preserve the strange behavior 19:31:57 i don't really know forth, alas 19:32:18 but i note there is no broken wrapping on 256 :D 19:32:27 (or any wrapping for that matter) 19:32:44 Not all the interpreters on that page preserve the strange behavior, but some might do so 19:32:55 oerjan: You are right about no wrapping, however. 19:33:01 But it is not difficult to fix 19:33:10 I can fix it if you wanted it fixed, I suppose 19:33:27 that would be nice 19:34:39 There is one program I write which does try to preserve the old strange behavior, called CZZT. It tries to preserve the old strange behavior of ZZT by trying to implement it in the similar way to how I imagine Tim Sweeney to have originally implemented it. (The original source-code for ZZT was written in Pascal, and has been lost. My copy is in C, although I try to implement Pascal-style strings and such) 19:35:27 -!- lament has joined. 19:36:15 lament! 19:37:53 There, now I have implemented the broken wrapping. Is OK now? 19:39:14 i think so 19:39:16 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:40:13 -!- jcp has joined. 19:40:26 Actually, it doesn't output a newline after each number either, but maybe it is supposed to do that too 19:41:27 well i consider exact I/O compatibility more optional 19:42:04 Yes, I am considering the same 19:42:09 (although i've tried to do it in the ones i made) 19:43:04 Which ones did you make? 19:43:53 haskell, perl, unlambda 19:45:56 OK 19:47:54 This particular Forth code is for Gforth. (Other Forth systems might not support the 'i' 'd' constants, although they could be added in, the thing in Forth is that you can add in stuff like that!) 19:49:26 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:49:28 Actually, some Forth systems are more minimal and there might be other things in this program it also doesn't support. However, any ANS-compliant Forth system should run it (possibly apart from the ' ' constants), since everything else in this program is ANS-compliant. 19:49:47 aw 19:49:49 (Some non-ANS-compliant Forth systems might also run it) 19:50:08 my neighbor has introduced me to his friend's teen daughter 19:50:12 sweet 16! 19:50:28 Hay! No cheating! Put the gloves like everyone else has to! 19:51:29 i'm definitely not wearing a glove with her 19:51:41 i want to feel every luscious square milimeter inside her 19:51:54 No, I mean the glove for mahjong 19:52:00 oh 19:52:17 i definitely wouldn't play mahjongg with her 19:52:33 OK, then. 19:52:56 how is this esoteric 19:53:19 i don't know 19:53:22 let's talk about encryption instead 19:54:02 cheater99: i think it's too late for you to start using encryption at this point 19:54:03 what's the longest password hash string you encounter when using the common algorithms? 19:54:14 oerjan, explain 19:54:30 well i guess it depends how old you are 19:54:35 and where 19:54:43 16 is legal 19:55:11 ah germany 19:55:14 HEXARC is a encryption algorithm that is like ARCFOUR however it run forward and backward simultaneously, uses initialization vectors, uses garbage data and propagation, and uses multiple passes (the number of passes is part of the password), and uses a 1000-bit key 19:55:32 * oerjan has this tendency to assume us by default 19:55:34 especially if her mom is an eastern european migrant who introduces me and then 10 minutes later remarks 'oh, then he's probably rich too!' 19:55:47 once that is said, she might as well be 12 19:55:55 =) 19:55:57 =O 19:56:37 (Actually, it uses a log2(256!) bit key) 19:57:37 pics? 19:57:42 of the encryption algo 19:58:16 no pics 19:58:21 Pictures of encryption algorithms? 19:58:26 yes 19:58:27 picard is dancing mambo 19:58:33 How can you have pictures of that? 19:58:40 well umm 19:58:50 i've seen diagrams of sorts 19:58:54 he means 16-bit encryption algorithms 19:59:09 oklopol, look up the SELECT operator on wikipedia 19:59:14 zzo38: well that old one with twining papers around sticks seems pretty picturable 19:59:17 * pikhq is back on the Brainfuck compilation thing 19:59:38 This time, in Haskell, because optimising a parse tree is a bitch in C. 19:59:51 And just some pattern matching in Haskell. 19:59:56 cheater99: can you take pictures 19:59:57 oerjan: The ones with a physical process could have a photograph of the physical apparatus used to execute the encryption algorithm 20:00:13 ah yes, enigma etc. 20:00:26 oklopol, who knows 20:01:20 I don't have a webcam on my computer, but if I did, I could use it to read QR codes. (I would also leave it unconnected while I am not using it, for at least two reasons) 20:01:26 pikhq: beat esotope 20:01:57 the esotope beat 20:02:09 alise: Eventually, perhaps. 20:02:14 Is there anything in Linux you might be able to capture webcam pictures using a command such as: convert /dev/webcam out.jpg 20:02:18 * oerjan leaves that to Gregor 20:02:27 (where "convert" is the ImageMagick convert command) 20:02:27 I intend to target assembly. 20:02:49 Because C compilers handle Brainfuck-compiled-to-C *poorly*. 20:03:04 Like, "load the pointer into a register for every instruction" poorly. 20:03:19 Howso? 20:04:49 pikhq: target your own machine language 20:04:52 then compile that to asm 20:06:37 ais523: pikhq: how do you swap left and right audio channels in linux 20:06:49 turn your computer upside-down 20:06:54 (real answer: I don't know) 20:07:41 zzo38: I don't know of anything like that, but it seems unlikely 20:07:49 you would maybe have to write a kernel module specifically for that 20:08:23 ais523: Well, do you like this feature, if it were implemented? 20:08:30 zzo38: yes, it's a clever idea 20:08:43 I'm not sure how you use a webcam at all under Linux... 20:08:44 zzo38: you would like plan 9 20:08:47 agreed 20:08:48 ais523: gui apps 20:09:05 i have to have my speakers wrong way around 20:09:07 due to cord length :D 20:09:09 Another feature I would like to use is something that allows you to copy to clipboard using a command such as: ls > /proc/X/9p/CLIPBOARD 20:09:12 so i need to swap the two channels 20:09:25 alise: is it physically possible to swap the wire connections? 20:09:32 or do you need a software solution? 20:09:39 ais523: only if i crack open the speakers 20:09:44 i know there is a software solution 20:09:44 I suppose it is always possible to swap the wire if you can cut the wires and stuff like that, at least. 20:09:46 i'm just not sure what it is 20:09:49 (also, what's wrong with mirror-reflected sound? are you playing Pokémon or something?) 20:09:59 How can I tell ALSA to swap the left and right stereo channels on my soundcard? 20:09:59 Add this to your ~/.asoundrc file: 20:09:59 pcm.swapped { 20:09:59 type route 20:09:59 slave.pcm "cards.pcm.default" 20:09:59 ttable.0.1 1 20:10:01 ttable.1.0 1 20:10:03 } 20:10:07 do alsa settings still work for pulseaudio systems? 20:10:09 ais523: music 20:10:14 also, why do you need correct sound for pokemon? 20:10:23 alise: because sounds come from the left if they're to do with your team 20:10:28 or from the right to do with the opponent's 20:10:30 whoa 20:10:31 really? 20:10:34 it's very weird if you put your headphones on backwards 20:10:36 yep 20:10:42 i always just use the little speaker 20:10:45 so i never knew 20:10:52 you have to set the options for stereo sound, but that might be the default for all I know 20:11:13 Which generation of pokemon game did you mean? 20:11:16 #ESOTERIC 20:11:16 IS 20:11:18 DEAD; 20:11:18 NETCRAFT 20:11:19 zzo38: all since second 20:11:19 CONFIRMS 20:11:19 IT 20:11:25 possibly first too 20:11:27 OK 20:11:32 ooh, we need The #esoteric Times 20:11:38 Currently, I've got the infrastructure for this set up, and for testing purposes, it just outputs Brainfuck after optimisations. 20:11:50 optimising BF into BF? 20:11:51 so what's up oklopol 20:11:58 or into BF-plus-extra-instructions? 20:12:03 I have written optimize BF into BF in JavaScript. 20:12:25 ais523: Just BF. It's more a test to make sure my parser is correct than anything else. 20:12:32 * cheater99 ponders upon tits 20:12:32 can anyone think of an obvious use for a BF pessimizer? 20:12:40 Why the hell does google not search for non-alphanumerics?? 20:12:45 I can't, but if anyone can, it's us 20:12:55 Though it is quite nice for dealing with poorly auto-generated code. 20:12:59 (such as LostKng) 20:13:01 Phantom_Hoover, because they strip it before indexing 20:13:27 Why? 20:13:39 Some people might write code the "most pessimum" in order to make the speed correctly 20:14:05 How can I reverse my left and right speaker channels? 20:14:06 This is the same as "reverse stereo", where the left and right channels are to be swapped. 20:14:06 cat /proc/asound/cards and use the name string for the device you wish to use (the one in square brackets) 20:14:06 Edit /etc/pulse/default.pa and comment out module-hal-detect and module-detect lines. 20:14:07 Search for the commented-out line that starts "#load-module module-alsa-sink", uncomment it and change it to 20:14:10 load-module module-alsa-sink device=hw:[answer from step 0] channel_map=right,left 20:14:12 Restart the pulseaudio deamon by running pulseaudio -k; pulseaudio -D 20:14:14 how obvious 20:14:38 Which probably shouldn't be done on modern computers however, except possibly if you are programming a GameBoy program or something like that, in which the CPU speed will always be the same way anyways 20:15:23 alise 20:15:27 your nick was 'ehird' before? 20:15:44 Yes 20:15:45 why 20:15:50 oh 20:15:52 Oh, damn. 20:15:53 Phantom_Hoover: don't say that, he's probably trying to stalk me. 20:15:55 well i remember you now 20:15:57 Sorry. 20:16:00 :P 20:16:03 cheater99: lol, hi. 20:16:08 didn't you hate me or something 20:16:10 iirc. 20:17:14 ? 20:17:16 no 20:17:21 oh 20:17:22 http://sprunge.us/bgPQ 20:17:22 thought you did 20:17:26 Now for a code generator! 20:17:29 you were totally my sweet, sweet bottom 20:19:24 i see. 20:19:35 btw, those taste very good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_melon 20:21:48 pikhq: too many newlines. 20:21:56 shitty if/else indentation; use | guards instead 20:22:43 does anyone know how to nuke pulseaudio so that my ubuntu box uses alsa. i am sick of this shit fo shur 20:23:40 I'd do pretty (Add x:xs) = case compare x 0 of EQ -> ... LT -> ... GT -> ... 20:23:52 I much prefer 20:23:56 Hmm. Code generator's going to be annoying. 20:23:58 pretty (Add x:xs) | x < 0 = ... 20:24:04 | x == 0 = ... 20:24:06 | x > 0 = ... 20:24:15 or rather 20:24:18 pretty (Add x:xs) 20:24:21 | x < 0 = ... 20:24:24 | x == 0 = ... 20:24:27 | x > 0 = ... 20:24:38 Might work best with State. 20:24:49 If x is a floating-point number all of those could be false ;-P 20:24:51 pikhq: I tell you: have your own intermediate language 20:24:55 Deewiant: It isn't 20:25:09 alise: Still need it for label generation. 20:25:10 yay i got my channels swapped 20:25:33 pikhq: yes, but you can do the important parts of machine code in some more functional part 20:25:39 then spit out asm and generate labels at the last stage 20:26:12 Actually I'd do pretty (Add x:xs) = replicate x (if x < 0 then '-' else '+') : pretty xs 20:26:19 s/: p/++ p/ 20:26:25 Deewiant: Changing. 20:28:41 "Transmission is a file sharing program. When you run a torrent, its data will be made available to others by means of upload. And of course, any content you share is your sole responsibility. 20:28:41 You probably knew this, so we won't tell you again." 20:29:44 cheater99: what's up is i'm reading stuff 20:29:50 or trying to 20:31:40 Oh come on, torrent client 20:31:43 You can do better than that <3 20:38:31 found via Reddit: http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=p&chd=t:85,15&chs=350x250&chdl=Resembles+Pacman|Does+not+resemble+Pacman&chp=.5&chco=ffff00,993365&chtt=Percentage+of+chart+which|resembles+Pacman 20:38:57 I need a Usenet provider... 20:39:02 ais523: oooold 20:39:10 we're talking... really, really old 20:39:12 alise: really? 20:39:16 yes 20:39:20 like at least 4 years maybe? 20:39:23 I'm wondering if it was an independent recreation of something old 20:39:26 yes 20:39:37 nothing there implied it hadn't just been made up a few seconds ago 20:39:42 still amusing, anyway 20:39:43 http://img.moronail.net/img/1/2/12.jpg 20:39:44 http://www.newfunnypictures.net/data/media/4/Percentage%20of%20chart%20which%20resembles%20Pac-man.jpg 20:39:51 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2310739468_397d808a35.jpg?v=0 20:39:56 http://sixtostart.com/files/xmas08/ARGs%20Christmas.032.png 20:39:58 I should use that in a presentation someday 20:40:04 http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=p&chd=t:85,15&chs=350x250&chdl=Does+not+resemble+Pacman|Resembles+Pacman&chp=.5&chco=ffff00,993365&chtt=Percentage+of+chart+which|resembles+Pacman 20:40:08 Much better 20:40:13 another popular one is 20:40:18 http://www.seomfg.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/pie-i-have-eaten-chart.jpg 20:40:22 pie i have eaten vs pie i have not yet eaten 20:41:18 also amusing in the discussion was an argument that someone hadn't misquoted Dijkstra properly 20:42:44 * alise installs Quod Libet 20:43:11 leonard nemoy has a twitter account. 20:43:13 gosh 20:43:28 lol @ pie chart 20:46:24 http://pgraycode.wordpress.com/2010/05/29/raptors/ 20:47:33 I THINK YOU MEAN LEONARD NIMOY ALISE 20:47:49 whoops. 20:47:49 :| 20:47:56 Here comes the FURY 20:48:09 Say you have dyslexia! 20:48:13 I have seen a variant of that "percentage of chart which resembles Pac-man" 20:48:25 I have been told that I have dylexia. 20:48:33 s/dylexia/dyslexia/ 20:48:46 This just goes to show that psychology in general is stupid 20:50:31 lol 20:51:37 -!- tombom has joined. 20:51:59 (The typo rather detracts from the statement, though) 20:52:07 He has written two autobiographies, I Am Not Spock (1975) and I Am Spock (1995). 20:52:43 Phantom_Hoover: and here i was hoping the typo was accurate 20:52:53 Phantom_Hoover, the typo just proves your shrink's point. 20:53:06 No it doesn't 20:53:28 Yes it does. 20:53:35 Typos are due to my fingers not hitting the key hard enough. 20:53:38 Also, punctuation is a good thing. Use it. 20:53:42 That's better; 232 KiB/s. 20:54:00 pikhq: I try to. 20:54:11 anyone else here watching Eurovision? 20:54:13 i dont need no stinking punctuation asshole 20:54:32 Oerjans excepted. 20:54:37 Yum; >300KiB/s. 20:54:40 `quote 20:54:41 72| ignore me, i'm full of bullshit 20:54:47 *>300 KiB/s. 20:54:50 ouch 20:54:51 :D 20:54:53 `quote 20:54:54 4| i read paths as penis :( 20:54:55 `quote 20:54:57 86| Evolution is awful, awful, awful 20:54:59 `quote 20:55:00 128| I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love 20:55:01 `quote 20:55:03 141| think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat 20:55:14 `quote 20:55:16 55| kaelis: yes kaelis, but however will get the horses to wear knickers? 20:55:21 ais523: I have it on in the background. 20:55:22 `quote 20:55:24 125|Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. 20:55:30 can you stream eurovision online live? :P 20:55:32 `quote 124 20:55:33 124| I cannot eat meat that isn't flat. 20:55:36 I don't know 20:55:38 `quote 20:55:39 42| after all, what are DVD players for? 20:55:45 the only TV channel I stream regularly is ITV 20:55:46 `quote 123 20:55:48 123|[Warrigal] `addquote hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :( 20:55:53 because it's broken on the actual TV here 20:55:54 ais523: because you're too principled to tune in to it? 20:56:07 I tend not to watch ITV at all because it's shit 20:56:13 alise: mostly, I agree 20:56:18 It has like 1 good programme. 20:56:24 but I tend to like the sort of vapid and pointless quiz shows that they put on sometimes 20:56:25 Phantom_Hoover: go on... 20:56:34 ais523: channel 4 tends to have enough quiz shows 20:56:38 TV Burp is funny... 20:56:44 alise: so do 1, and 2 20:56:49 Okay, I will admit to occasionally watching TV Burp... 20:56:50 5 used to, but it stopped years ago 20:56:58 yeah Five is pretty awful 20:57:04 just 5,000 rubbish american shows 20:57:15 I'm annoyed at Channel 5, it was my favourite channel when it first came out 20:57:21 but went more and more downhill as time went on 20:57:21 It's called Five now :P 20:57:26 I know 20:57:30 but I refuse to acknowledge it 20:57:45 BBC One is officially called "BBC one" now, isn't it? 20:57:47 Or something of that sort 20:57:52 alise: Try US TV. 20:57:52 I'm trying to think of something to shout "FIGHT" about, but I can't. 20:57:57 if so, that's stupid 20:57:58 5,000 channels of rubbish American shows. 20:58:00 pikhq: No, thank you! 20:58:05 ais523: ah, no, it's changed from BBC1 to BBC One 20:58:07 since 1997 20:58:10 pikhq: I could pick up many of the larger US TV channels from Canada 20:58:16 ais523: you're on proggit 20:58:17 but concluded I didn't have enough of a reason to 20:58:23 oerjan: I noticed, comex told me 20:58:23 By "try" I mean "look at and then DESTROY your TV" 20:58:25 Well, I like US TV, and I like Five. But which is better? 20:58:30 I like BBC Two a lot. 20:58:34 There's only one way to find out: 20:58:38 FIGHT! 20:58:40 Phantom_Hoover: You... *Like* this shit? 20:58:42 BBC Two + Channel 4 = pretty much all TV worth watching 20:58:45 pikhq: He's joking. 20:58:47 The CBC's okay, and that's about i 20:58:49 *it 20:58:58 YOU FORGOT PBS LOL 20:59:02 pikhq: Running joke on TV Burp 20:59:05 534 KiB/s on a torrent 20:59:08 coppro: I was watching CBC News when I got bored of BBC World Service 20:59:11 800 KiB/s 20:59:13 in which Harry hill compares two things. 20:59:13 I'm convinced that most of US television is designed in order to enact war against the rest of the world. 20:59:17 I am feeling happy in my special place now 20:59:21 *BBC World News, they renamed it 20:59:23 They then have people in costumes fight. 20:59:31 ais523: does it not carry non-news programs any more? 20:59:33 They tend to be ridiculous. 20:59:42 ais523: notice the top reddit comment :D 20:59:44 Like a baby and a king prawn. 20:59:49 alise: it carries some programs which only tenuously fit into the definition of "news" 21:00:13 oerjan: the one about Wolfram? 21:00:17 ais523: so basically you can only legally watch BBC television programs abroad by purchasing DVD sets? 21:00:22 you can't use iPlayer, they don't broadcast it... 21:00:27 I can't tell if that's a parody or an accurate quote 21:00:33 what is it? 21:00:37 alise: Or BBCA. 21:00:38 WTF, someone reposted that again 21:00:43 why? 21:00:45 alise: not a repost, it's a first post 21:00:45 BBCA does not count 21:00:49 "I'm impressed that an undergrad did the proof. That's very impressive." 21:00:53 ais523: lol 21:00:58 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:00:59 Which is a corporation which has simply gotten a license to the BBC name and BBC shows. 21:00:59 "Euclid didn't even get a high-school diploma" umm... 21:01:02 reddit missed it somehow 21:01:06 first time round 21:01:11 ais523: the TLDR 21:01:17 oerjan: yep, I agree 21:01:19 why doesn't BBCA count? 21:01:47 alise: It's just another normal US TV channel, which *happens* to have a license to BBC shows. 21:01:49 ais523: I'm sorry how Wolfram has tarnished your name 21:01:58 I don't think he has, really 21:02:01 everyone upon seeing alex smith in the future will go "oh, he's the guy who proved wolfram's kooky thing" 21:02:06 Well... "A New Kind of Pseudoscience, now with more megalomania. Your taste buds cannot repel flavor of this magnitude." 21:02:09 there's a huge amount of vitriol for him and feeling sorry for me, on most of the fora about it 21:02:12 "I love how even in praising the undegrad student's work, Wolfram takes credit for himself, even though he had little if anything to do with it:" ++ 21:02:23 ais523: didn't the $20k just go to living expenses? 21:02:41 alise: for about 3 years, it's served me well 21:02:46 *$25k 21:02:53 ais523: you don't seem to be living rather richly :P 21:03:02 I don't particularly want to live richly 21:03:02 but yes, good point 21:03:39 Where's the Wolfram thing? 21:03:43 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/c99c3/the_prize_is_won_the_simplest_universal_turing/ 21:03:47 nowadays I have a salary, but it's too low to trip any of the tax or loan repayment thresholds yet 21:03:58 yet simultaneously it's more money than I can easily imagine 21:03:58 "The problem with this proof is that it's incorrect. There was a long discussion regarding the correctness of the proof at http://cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2007-October/012156.html; Dr. Vaughn Pratt has stated that generating the Turing instructions as described is analogous to a linearly bound automaton." 21:04:06 ais523: oh, oh, please give me some text to rebut him with! 21:04:08 "Euclid didn't even get a high-school diploma" 21:04:25 oerjan: yes xD 21:04:52 And the high-rated comment? 21:05:05 alise: there was an initial high-profile complaint by him that was based on incorrect assumptions, which he later retracted; then an argument about something tangential that I lost badly; then some valid concerns about the definitions of the thing in the first place, an argument that never finished because the moderator went on holiday. There's a proof there, but nobody seems entirely certain what it is that I proved 21:05:10 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/c99c3/the_prize_is_won_the_simplest_universal_turing/c0r088g 21:05:23 Ah, indeed. 21:05:25 ais523: shall I say that you said that or sth? 21:05:40 brb 21:05:42 if you like, I don't know if people will believe you... 21:05:58 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:08:42 Rule 110 is TC, right? 21:09:25 Phantom_Hoover: heh, that runs into some of the same definitional problems my proof does 21:09:33 Phantom_Hoover: so to speak. it has some similar issues to ais523's TM, but not as strong iiuc 21:09:35 but with a definition in which the 2,3 machine is TC, rule 110 is also TC 21:09:45 oerjan: agreed 21:09:46 ais523's TM? 21:09:54 it's Wolfram's TM 21:10:01 (rule 110's setup is periodic in each direction iirc) 21:10:04 the only thing he did was discover it, and advertise beyond the limits of sanity 21:10:05 Wait, that was you? 21:10:07 but at least he did discover it 21:10:12 Phantom_Hoover: yes 21:10:22 it was funny seeing #esoteric disappointed that someone had solved it and it wasn't one of them 21:10:27 and they took a bit of convincing to start with 21:10:41 Do you like this cardset? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/screen/spider-tarot-cardset.png 21:10:53 I have to thank the channel for introducing the problem to me in the first place, it was in the topic 21:11:04 i noticed someone later proved that Rule 110 is P-complete, which means it definitely has _some_ computational content 21:11:38 (that's for predicting n generations ahead, not infinite computation) 21:11:48 P-complete's something like 6 or 7 computational classes lower than TC, isn't it? 21:11:58 (assuming you mean P as in P=NP, rather than PSPACE) 21:11:59 it's a complexity class 21:12:03 yep 21:12:11 yes the same P 21:12:15 IMO, all the complexity classes are lower than all the mainstream computational classes 21:12:19 and on the same large scale 21:12:46 you can think of a general FSM, being the lowest useful computational class, as the highest complexity class 21:12:59 Incidentally, is it possible for the Reimann Hypothesis to be undecidable? 21:13:07 no 21:13:10 well, not provably 21:13:19 Ah, OK. 21:13:19 if it was provably undecidable, then you've proved it can't be shown true or false 21:13:32 if you prove it can't be shown false, then you've proved there are no counterexamples, as a counterexample would prove it false 21:13:41 thus in such a case it must be true, which is a contradiction 21:13:47 Of course. 21:14:13 ais523: btw you looked at tag stuff didn't you? iiuc the essential part of the P-complete proof was to show you could simulate turing machines in tag systems more efficiently than using unary (i think it was quadratic size) 21:14:14 I'm not sure if it can be unprovably undecidable 21:14:33 oerjan: not really, I used the pre-existing result that cyclic tag was TC, but that was about it 21:14:46 Can you prove that its undecidability is undecidable? 21:14:59 ais523: well then it might apply to that TM too, perhaps 21:15:02 Phantom_Hoover: I'm trying to figure out what undecidable undecidability would even mean 21:15:36 The same as undecidability of anything. 21:16:00 -!- ais523 has changed nick to undecidable. 21:16:06 Wait, actually. 21:16:07 sorry, need this in my tab-complete to make typing easier... 21:16:27 I think it runs into the same problems as undecidability. 21:16:28 undecidable: either an assumption that something's true, or that it's false, leads to no contradiction 21:16:33 At least for the RH. 21:17:04 Since a counterexample would prove its undecidability to also be decidable. 21:17:17 so if it's undecidable that something's undecidable, then assuming that something's true or false leads to no contradiction; and assuming that it can't be safely assumed both true and false also leads to no contradiction 21:17:22 and as far as I can tell, that's a contradiction 21:17:22 So it's unprovable all the way doen. 21:17:24 undecidable: FSM is regular languages isn't it? that's one of the _lowest_ useful complexity classes, not the highest 21:17:39 Flying Spaghetti Monster? 21:17:45 -!- undecidable has changed nick to ais523. 21:17:52 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 21:18:02 oerjan: hmm, I was thinking in terms of an FSM which scaled to the problem 21:18:15 which leads to definitional problems along the lines of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Formula 21:18:22 or, for that matter, confusion with an LBA 21:19:47 that doesn't sound very well-defined, no 21:20:00 Phantom_Hoover: finite state machine, i thought 21:20:07 I do that sort of thing all the time... 21:20:36 X is P complete means X is in P and any problem in P can be reduced to X with reduction what? 21:20:50 oklopol: logspace-reduction, mostly 21:21:16 what is the difference between a FSM and a FSA? 21:21:25 although i've recently heard there's an even weaker reduction they sometimes use 21:21:32 (or is that "an"?, after all it is pronounced as the letters...) 21:21:33 One's an M and the other's an A 21:21:37 Deewiant, well duh 21:21:42 but you know what I mean 21:21:45 (logtime something, i'm not sure what it is) 21:21:59 finite state automaton and finite state machine 21:22:03 are they the same thing? 21:22:09 s/heard/read/ 21:22:20 Well, it's obvious that the lowest computational class is something like a bric. 21:22:31 s/c\./ckz./ 21:22:45 Damn, I made a typo in that too. 21:23:04 ais523, maybe you can give an useful answer there, you tend to be able 21:23:04 s/z// 21:23:18 AnMaster: IIRC they're the same 21:23:23 or same enough that it makes no difference 21:23:57 ais523, ah 21:23:58 FSM is regulars yes 21:24:11 oklopol: logspace is my favorite complexity class, i think, despite being rather low 21:24:31 So all of our computers are basically glorified regex parsers? 21:24:44 AnMaster: You realize that this is the kind of thing that can be solved by looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSM and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSA 21:24:58 i just recently found the proof you can do most arithmetic in it (although the proof was strengthened even further to some even weaker class) 21:25:29 Deewiant, that would require opening a browser 21:25:32 it's surprisingly subtle how to do division 21:25:35 I already had irc client open 21:26:01 logically asking on irc is thus better. Plus it gives some fun answers along the way 21:26:02 Phantom_Hoover: clearly you could write a regex containing every possible internal state of the computer as alternatives 21:26:05 thanks to you Deewiant ;P 21:26:11 not that that would be particularly sensible 21:26:18 addition sounds easy 21:26:19 I consider opening a browser less trouble than asking on IRC 21:26:27 Deewiant: for me it's the other way round 21:26:32 I know :-P 21:26:37 I have to agree with ais523 here 21:26:37 oklopol: yes that's the easiest one. multiplying _two_ numbers is also easy. 21:26:38 oerjan, what's logspace 21:26:42 I feel disappointed when I have to get the Web involved, especially a site I've never visited 21:26:52 If you're browser-challenged, I'll spoil it for you: FSM = FSA 21:26:56 cheater99: you get an amount of memory to do your calculation proportional to the logarithm of the size of the input 21:27:01 cheater99: O(log n) workspace use 21:27:03 ais523, btw can you tell us about that esolang thing at uni you ran across 21:27:09 -!- uoryfon has joined. 21:27:10 that you didn't want to ask about some days ago 21:27:10 aka L 21:27:12 ok 21:27:12 ah, yes 21:27:19 ais523, or is it still secret? 21:27:28 It has bothered me for a long time that I don't understand O notation. 21:27:33 oerjan, is ais523's definition equivalent? 21:27:51 Phantom_Hoover: you still don't you mean? 21:27:55 oklopol: multiplying _n_ numbers was a key ingredient in the proof i found 21:27:56 basically, in Sutherland's event logic, there are six basic circuits, plus wires and forking wires, that describe a mathematically useful subset of asynchronous circuits 21:28:07 oklopol: Yes. 21:28:07 in recent research, we found that three of them were not necessary 21:28:39 ais523, ah interesting. Not necessary in the same sense as "you can do with only nand, but it is quite a pain to do that"? 21:28:48 AnMaster: pretty much 21:28:51 right 21:28:51 cheater99: yes 21:28:54 ais523, carry on 21:28:58 and we're trying to work out if one of the remaining five circuits, which seems rather complex, is expressible in terms of the other four 21:29:01 I think I've proved it's impossible 21:29:17 oh cool 21:29:43 ais523, can it be expressed in terms of one of the ones you proved not required? to get another "minimal" subset? 21:29:52 O(g(n)) is the set of function f for which there are n_0 >= 0 and a > 0 such that f(n) <= a * g(n) when n >= n_0, so f(n) is in O(g(n)) means that from some point on (n_0) f(n) is smaller than some multiple of g(n) (which has to be the same for all n) 21:29:55 probably, but they're even more complicated 21:29:57 back 21:30:02 ais523, ah okay 21:30:14 -!- uoryfon has quit (Client Quit). 21:30:44 ais523: posted what you said 21:31:08 ais523, and how does this tie into esolangs? 21:31:28 ok 21:31:50 ais523, oh and "Sutherland event logic" seems to not give many useful google results for me 21:31:51 Phantom_Hoover: does that make any sense? i tried to use letters with no well-known meanings. 21:31:52 if it was provably undecidable, then you've proved it can't be shown true or false 21:31:57 that's not what undecidable means 21:31:58 argh the grammar 21:32:06 undecidable = no algorithm can decide 21:32:11 independent = cannot be proved true or false from axioms 21:32:12 no? 21:32:48 alise, the former implies the latter though. 21:32:53 also ais523 what about RE 21:33:04 is that lower than a turing machin? 21:33:06 re-complete 21:33:14 it contains the halting problem 21:33:15 for instance 21:33:29 R = TM 21:33:30 alise, afaik RE is less capable than an UTC 21:33:34 UTM* 21:33:38 weird typo 21:33:39 R = RE intersect co-RE 21:33:42 AnMaster: no 21:33:45 R is a UTM 21:33:57 RE and co-RE are strictly bigger 21:34:03 RE Being? 21:34:08 RE is the set of languages that are accepted by turing machines; this includes the language of turing machines that halt 21:34:10 AnMaster: Sutherland event logic is rather esolangish in its own right 21:34:13 recursively enumerable 21:34:18 I'm starting to wonder that too. Thought RE was the regular languages 21:34:29 well true TMs will "run" RE 21:34:31 alise, okay so what do you abbrev regular languages to? 21:34:33 but R is all the problems they can SOLVE 21:34:36 AnMaster: "regular" 21:34:44 alise, seen RE used for it, pretty sure 21:34:51 i doubt it 21:35:06 might not have been a mathematician of course 21:35:06 In computational complexity theory, R is the class of decision problems solvable by a Turing machine, which is the set of all recursive languages. R is often identified with the class of 'effectively computable' functions (the Church-Turing thesis). 21:35:09 oklopol: i don't ^ 21:35:18 proof by wikipedia 21:35:34 the margin is too narrow to contain my refutation of your proof 21:35:45 R is the set of languages that are accepted by turing machines that always halt 21:35:52 "I have a truly marvellous proof of this, but I'm sure you can all work it out." 21:36:01 oklopol: well yeah i'm talking in terms of decision problems 21:36:06 if you don't halt you haven't solved a decision problem 21:36:08 Q.E.D. 21:36:25 alise: i doubt AnMaster has seen RE used for regulars 21:36:35 the Church-Turing thesis is ridiculous, I've seen about 20 different definitions of it, ranging from obviously true to clearly a matter of philosophy to right outside the scope of mathematics 21:36:38 i don't doubt " but R is all the problems they can SOLVE" 21:36:42 right 21:36:49 that's as true as it can be 21:37:51 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:38:03 ais523: my definition of the church-turing thesis: Imagine a universe with the same physics as our own, but infinitely large. Imagine that this universe contains machines with actual physical infinite tapes. The Church-Turing thesis states that any computation done in this universe can be done by a universal Turing machine. 21:38:17 even that's a bit vague 21:39:17 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:39:32 ais523, what is the original definition of it? 21:39:43 I don't know 21:39:52 ais523, it might be worth checking that 21:40:09 AnMaster: just "real-world computation can be done with the lambda-calculus" 21:40:15 which is hopelessly vague 21:40:19 ouch 21:40:20 wow, what a rubbish .nfo 21:40:29 it doesn't contain any text at all apart from the filled-in fields 21:40:31 nfo? 21:40:48 isn't that something used by MS system info thingy? 21:40:49 AnMaster: what the scene uses to give information about a release and diss other groups and shit 21:40:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:40:54 and talk about how great they are for doing it 21:41:23 "On Microsoft Windows, the NFO filename extension is associated with a Microsoft software tool called System Information." 21:41:27 says wikipedia 21:41:30 hm 21:41:43 meh, sceners came first 21:41:45 they're just text files 21:41:47 true 21:42:17 scene? Somehow, I don't think you're talking about the demoscene 21:42:26 The demoscene is an offshoot of the scene. 21:42:36 (Cracked software always included a masturbatory demo at the start.) 21:42:40 alise, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia-nfo.png <-- wikipedia is really self centered eh? 21:42:46 (Then they got so extravagant that they didn't need software accompanying them.) 21:42:51 that's the example of an nfo file 21:42:54 so, if some physical constants happened to be uncomputable by a turing machine, but we could approximate them arbitrarily far with some sort of physical measurements, would you consider the church-turing to be wrong? 21:42:57 in the article about nfo files 21:42:58 *proven wrong 21:42:59 AnMaster: yeah wikipedia never talk about anything else in their examples 21:43:09 oklopol: well... abstract computation 21:43:09 alise, right 21:43:17 i.e. computation that only uses some finitely specifiable input 21:43:22 so... anything that just takes a natural basically 21:43:31 alise: i'm not finding a counterexample to yours, i'm asking a question 21:43:34 I guess if it's quantum... 21:43:40 oklopol: then no, because it takes non-natural input 21:43:41 but then 21:43:44 what about quantum computers 21:43:47 can they take non-natural input? 21:43:59 takes non-natural input? 21:44:24 basically we have a physical machine that outputs a number no turing machine can 21:44:25 natural number 21:44:31 alise, what exactly is abstract computation then 21:44:33 finitely-specifiable input = finite list of naturals = natural 21:44:34 is that well defined? 21:44:40 oklopol: ah. 21:44:44 oklopol: you're not allowed IO devices like that 21:45:00 natural in, natural out, nothing inbetween 21:45:06 alise, I can imagine you could measure some constants using the system clock and measuring delay in yourself 21:45:07 AnMaster: i'm defining it as we go right now! 21:45:12 no system clock 21:45:15 abstract, remember 21:45:25 alise, yes define abstract 21:45:31 alise: the guy whose book i was reading (just first chapter had philosophy :P) thought this would *not* be a counterexample, and i'd agree 21:45:36 oklopol: agreed 21:45:46 Well... alternatively, here's a very precise, very strong version of the CT thesis: 21:46:01 Super-Turing computation is impossible in every consistent universe. 21:46:14 i.e., Super-Turing computation is inherently inconsistent. 21:46:21 alise, if it has no clock and is async you can use it to measure delay due to temperature differences in different parts of the circuit if built the right way I think 21:47:03 at least you could measure them in terms of other ones 21:47:09 and use it as a crude clock 21:47:17 (of unknown period) 21:47:25 alise: btw, how mad am I for changing my own nick just so I could use it to tab-complete a word? 21:47:39 ais523, where? 21:47:41 on here? 21:47:45 yep 21:47:47 /nick undecidable 21:47:49 ais523, when? 21:47:49 earlier 21:47:55 interesting idea 21:48:26 MizardX, 21:48:33 Bah, damn enter key. 21:48:36 ais523: yes 21:48:37 :P 21:48:41 alise, if it has no clock and is async you can use it to measure delay due to temperature differences in different parts of the circuit if built the right way I think 21:48:47 you appear to misunderstand the word "abstract" 21:49:11 Super-Turing computation is impossible in every consistent universe. 21:49:11 i.e., Super-Turing computation is inherently inconsistent. 21:49:13 what if it has no clock and /isn't/ async? 21:49:14 actually I think I believe this 21:49:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 21:49:56 What is SuperTuring computation. 21:50:08 Also, I want that made into a comiv. 21:50:56 Why are there CTRL+H characters around the "<" "alise" ">" 21:51:29 zzo38: Mistake. 21:51:32 XChat copied the colours. 21:51:38 Phantom_Hoover: Computation stronger than a UTM. 21:51:43 you appear to misunderstand the word "abstract" <-- that is because you haven't defined it in an useful way 21:51:48 and: 21:51:50 Super-Turing computation is impossible in every consistent universe. 21:51:50 i.e., Super-Turing computation is inherently inconsistent. 21:51:55 seems pretty useless 21:52:05 it doesn't prove it, it just defines it 21:52:13 alise: How does that even work? 21:52:27 Calculates everything in constant time? 21:52:36 Phantom_Hoover, banana scheme for example 21:52:38 Phantom_Hoover: No? 21:52:38 Some of things in esolang wiki are super Turing, and uncomputable 21:52:39 (iirc) 21:52:46 For instance, a Turing-machine oracle. 21:52:54 Oh, solving the halting problem. 21:53:09 So TwoDucks isn't super-Turing? 21:53:32 It can decide a statement of the form (forall n : exists m : P(n,m)) where the variables range over natural numbers 21:53:37 (A super-Turing machine) 21:53:42 Well, at least, one with a TM oracle 21:54:02 ...What is P? 21:54:05 Phantom_Hoover, ... 21:54:07 "TwoDucks is an esoteric programming language by User:Zzo38 which allows you to go back in time and change things. It is uncomputable on a Turing machine; it even allows you to solve the halting problem. " 21:54:13 from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/TwoDucks 21:54:28 OK. 21:54:39 Hyper Set Language is certainly inconsistent, since a code to implement Russell paradox can be written with it 21:54:39 if that claim is true then it seems pretty certain it is superturing 21:55:25 So if super-Turing inconsistency is true, FTL travel is impossible? 21:56:04 What is the relation? 21:56:09 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:56:18 FTL travel, according to relativity and stuff, allows sending information back in time. 21:56:18 FTL travel implies violation of causality. 21:56:32 not=({0}!(0.0))|(0.1); element_of={[<#]&>#;not/(not/@)}; Russell={[0.#;1.0]/(element_of/(#.#))}\*; 21:56:36 O, so that's why. 21:56:36 If you can violate causality, you can build a TwoDucks interpreter. 21:56:39 QED. 21:56:43 you can? 21:56:59 Phantom_Hoover, what about storage space 21:57:06 you would need infinite of that as well 21:57:21 Hmm, maybe. 21:57:29 As far as I can tell, quantum computing with a wormhole gate (i.e. it outputs a value, then later takes that value as input) is perfectly consistent. 21:57:49 There can still be quantum entanglements which can affect things, however it cannot be used for anything that can be received information it does still has to be the limited by speed of light 21:58:02 uorygl, hm now you made me imagine implementing a nand gate or such with a wormhole 21:58:02 XD 21:58:16 How would the wormhole be useful? 21:58:37 uorygl, no clue 21:58:43 uorygl, I don't know enough physics 21:58:48 it just sounds like a cool idea 21:58:54 * uorygl nods. 21:58:54 Yes, can you implemented NAND gates by wormholes? 21:59:05 see what I said above 21:59:11 It would require a lot of energy to create wormholes anyways, if it can possibly work 21:59:17 also, I'm sure Hollywood could :P 22:04:31 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 22:04:53 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Client Quit). 22:05:04 -!- cheater99 has joined. 22:05:15 What is it with people joining and then leaving immediately, 22:05:43 I don't know 22:05:59 Perhaps testing purposes? 22:06:23 Fun fact: mass noun is a mass noun. 22:06:30 "I destroyed all the mass noun in the dictionary." 22:06:52 What? 22:06:59 It clearly isn't. 22:07:21 Why did you do that? 22:07:23 alise, "all the mass nouns" 22:07:26 I think 22:07:28 not sure 22:07:32 Yes. 22:07:38 That is correct. 22:07:55 No, it is a mass noun! 22:08:01 See! 22:08:07 Mass noun are all mass noun; and mass noun is a mass noun. 22:08:10 You said "a mass noun"! 22:08:19 Yes! That is valid! 22:08:23 if it is a mass noun you couldn't say "a mass noun" 22:08:26 Not for mass nouns! 22:08:28 ...hmm good point 22:08:30 "A water". 22:08:35 What's the one where "Xs" is invalid because it's just "X" 22:08:37 e.g. sheep 22:08:38 It makes no sense! 22:08:39 "a sheep" is still valid 22:08:54 That's just when the plural and the singular are the same. 22:09:03 Like fish. Or deer. 22:09:03 No fancy name? Aww. 22:09:06 and that isn't the case for "mass noun" either 22:09:12 There may well be one. 22:09:24 since it is "mass nouns" in plural 22:09:52 There is stuff on Wikipedia about "Mass noun" I checked 22:11:57 I think I heard that in some dialects in UK "sheep" does have a plural form different from the singular form 22:12:09 ais523: what is a Fragment anyway? 22:12:12 or it might have been archaic, or dialectal _and_ archaic 22:12:16 AnMaster: sheeple! 22:12:21 Wake up sheeple! 22:12:26 sheep shoop shippen 22:12:33 alise, sounds like something you use to bind paper together ;P 22:12:52 pulseaudio does not like two sounds playing at once lol 22:12:52 well looks like it 22:12:54 not sounds like it 22:12:56 remind me to unpack my mac asap 22:12:58 alise, works for me 22:13:07 AnMaster: congrats you have the perfect soundcard + configuration 22:13:09 alise, both on laptop and desktop 22:13:09 lucky you 22:13:14 AnMaster: how's that latency like 22:13:18 alise, my laptop has intel hd audio 22:13:18 only joking! 22:13:23 and it works there 22:13:23 pulseaudio's lag isn't called latency 22:13:28 it's called the waiting room 22:13:37 you can have a nice sit down and a cup of tea while it's going 22:13:40 alise, as for the latency, nothing noticeable 22:13:46 Today I will play pinball game 22:13:57 alise, so I think you must be unlucky 22:14:08 alise, of course on my desktop I _do_ have the perfect sound card 22:14:23 well almost 22:14:26 sb live 22:14:33 pulseaudio has the flaw of not actually doing anything useful 22:14:39 and there I don't use pulseaudio anyway 22:14:40 I use jack 22:15:08 If I had the patience to set it all up I'd use OSSv4. 22:15:09 alise, anyway on my laptop with intel hd audio, playing multiple sounds at once with pulseaudio works 22:15:14 not that I tend to do it often 22:15:16 but it works 22:15:57 * alise 's audio pauses for a few seconds 22:15:58 lovely 22:16:04 remind me not to scroll on a page with flash animations while using pulseaudio 22:16:20 admittedly it is a highly obnoxious flash ad that would play audio if i let it 22:16:25 alise, what sort of shitty cpu? 22:16:36 alise, intel atom? 22:16:45 no, actually, amd athlon 64 x2 22:16:54 huh 22:16:57 Of the three things I've tried (alsa, alsa + dmix, pulseaudio) pulseaudio works the best for me (but still not optimally) 22:17:01 alise, that is dual core isn't it? 22:17:05 so quite strange 22:17:08 Deewiant: but pulseaudio /goes/ /through/ /alsa/... 22:17:09 AnMaster: yes. 22:17:16 AnMaster: it's because linux is shit :D 22:17:30 alise, actually, I use linux and it doesn't happen for me 22:17:30 alise: I don't really know/care about how it works, just saying that it does 22:17:31 everything was just fine until i plugged in speakers! 22:17:42 alise, so I would suggest it is not the fault of linux 22:17:48 How good are you flipperless pinball game? 22:17:55 alise, this is on ubuntu jaunty 22:17:57 actually it is, linux's fault is having unpredictable problems between perfectly fine hardware 22:18:03 if it works, you're lucky! who the fuck knows why! 22:18:10 if not, sorry! 22:18:15 alise, so does mac. It only works on a few products 22:18:20 apple ones 22:18:22 yes but at least you know what to buy. 22:18:25 even more limited than linux 22:18:31 alise, okay for linux, buy IBM thinkpads 22:18:39 "Oh yeah this hardware works GREAT with linux" [buys it] "Actually, no it doesn't." 22:18:49 AnMaster: desktop? 22:18:49 alise, oh and with recent kernels the wlan issues went away 22:18:52 don't say "make your own" 22:18:57 The only issue I have with pulseaudio is that mplayer gets stuck if I pause it and then resume; I have to seek a bit (typically multiple times) to get it to unpause 22:18:59 alise, why not 22:19:01 system76 maybe 22:19:02 only ships to US 22:19:05 alise, it works perfectly 22:19:15 AnMaster: because Everyone Else Has Better Things To Do 22:19:26 like trying to get linux to work :D 22:19:27 alise, it takes, like, an hour once the components arrived 22:19:31 at most 22:19:39 I'll just tell my mother that, brb 22:19:42 alise, also I know someone with a perfect linux desktop apart from sound level 22:19:50 Actually, no I won't, because she'd laugh. 22:19:54 alise, it has 16 cores. 22:20:06 xenon i7 cpus 22:20:18 AnMaster: that's nice, how much money do they have? 22:20:25 [anmaster@ein ~]$ free -m 22:20:25 total used free shared buffers cached 22:20:25 Mem: 8953 2439 6514 0 0 1438 22:20:28 even I don't consider buying multiple xenons. 22:20:32 what, only 8 GiB? 22:20:36 9 22:20:41 9 indeed 22:20:56 AnMaster: are you counting hyperthreading "cores" there? 22:21:03 admittedly they're close to being extra cores, but still 22:21:03 not fully 22:21:05 alise, let me check a second. 22:21:10 Probably 22:21:23 yes, almost certainly. 22:21:27 probably yes 22:21:31 8 cpus is just two xenons, then 22:21:37 so what, $2,000 for the cpus. 22:21:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:21:40 or abouts. 22:22:00 I think it is quad cores. Each with two hyperthreads 22:22:06 model name: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5520 @ 2.27GHz 22:22:13 you could look that up on intel.com 22:22:15 if you care 22:22:26 ok so one of the low end ones then :-) 22:22:34 in fact the lowest cpu speed you can get in a Nehalem 22:22:40 well 22:22:44 alise, probably, it can compile the linux kernel in about 1 minute still 22:22:45 at least a Xenon/i7 22:22:48 Nehalem is a nice name for them, why don't people call them Nehalem more 22:22:50 which is quite impressive 22:22:55 why did they introduce i3/i5, before you could say Nehalem to mean i7/Xenon 22:22:57 and it was nice 22:23:00 if someone has 100 people on their friends list on fcebook and each person has on average 100 people on their list as well, that's 10000 people in your extended network 22:23:02 that's a lot 22:23:07 alise, ^ 22:23:17 but i would say only up to 60% of those are unique 22:23:20 Are Xenons also Nehalems? 22:23:20 cheater99: and if each one of those has 100 friends, your totally-extended network is infinitely big 22:23:21 alise, also it is a server board. Has IMPI and stuff 22:23:24 so in fact it's more like 6000 22:23:24 Deewiant: yes. 22:23:29 Deewiant: *Xeon, oops. 22:23:30 Er, Xeon 22:23:39 Happiness is... 22:23:42 Deewiant: Nehalem Xeon = i7 + multi-CPU support + ECC support + $500 or more extra 22:23:44 alise, anyway I bet your system can't compile the linux kernel in 1 minute and 2 seconds. 22:23:50 which is the stats I saw for that system 22:23:53 SgeoN1: ...excrement 22:23:56 alise: yes, but we're talking about a real population, so it's going to start duplicating real quick 22:24:02 I just thought the Xeons had a separate arch 22:24:09 `quote 22:24:10 164| I am an inherently pornographic being. 22:24:13 `quote 22:24:14 92| if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has 22:24:16 Deewiant: nope, never had 22:24:17 `quote 22:24:19 52| Apple = Windows. 22:24:25 `quote 22:24:27 59| actually, I pretended to be a hobo to get directions 22:24:31 alise, explain. 22:24:36 `unquote 22:24:37 No output. 22:24:39 Phantom_Hoover: I've even forgotten. 22:24:40 `quote 22:24:41 118| Actually, he still looks like he'd rather eat her than have sex with her. 22:24:45 Deewiant: IT WILL STAY NESTED FOREVER HAHAHAHAHAHA 22:24:51 Deewiant, also it seems to have 8 MB L2 cache per core? 22:24:56 AnMaster: yeah 22:25:00 wait no 22:25:03 not sure about L3 22:25:05 they have 512KiB of L2 per core 22:25:07 and 8MiB L3 22:25:08 ah 22:25:10 right 22:25:14 (core = 2 hyperthreads here) 22:25:22 a bit hard to tell from /proc/cpuinfo 22:25:30 so how do I get an account 22:25:33 no wait 22:25:38 i built bsmntbombdood an almost-as-good system 22:25:42 well only one cpu, but more ram 22:25:45 and an ssd 22:25:45 alise, on there? You don't. You have to be a friend of this guy. 22:25:48 I don't think /proc/cpuinfo has the info in that detail 22:25:55 Deewiant, indeed 22:25:55 so I'll just ask bsmntbombdood to do my compilations and shit :P 22:26:05 STOP HAVING BETTER COMPUTERS THAN ME 22:26:16 i wonder.... if you have a set of N vertices, and the set of all connected graphs on them, then what is the statistical distribution of the value of percentage of duplication of second- and third-friends, sampled across all graphs and all vertices 22:26:20 It just lists the cache a core has access to, but doesn't explain how it's shared between others 22:26:23 alise, I use this to do huge panorama stitching that swap trashes all my computers 22:26:34 of course it takes ages to scp the files. transatlantic 22:26:45 ...so how do I become a friend with this guy, what kind of personality does he have. 22:27:12 Wow, Dettol have introduced a No-Touch Hand Wash System. 22:27:14 alise, a personality like mine 22:27:20 "Never touch a germy soap pump again" 22:27:27 What will the immune systems of our next generation be like?! 22:27:31 Will they even HAVE any?! 22:27:36 alise, we have the same kind of view on user interface and such 22:27:43 AnMaster: well I'm not going that far, sorry. 22:27:46 :P 22:28:29 oh well, I'll just bask in the knowledge that I came up with all the components to a proven-really-fast system without ever having assembled a computer before or even coming up with a full list of parts. 22:28:32 clearly, i am a natural. 22:29:17 alise, you didn't assemble it 22:29:25 alise, that is the important bit 22:29:26 no... but that /is/ the easy part. 22:29:34 hey, all the components worked perfectly. 22:29:36 (together) 22:29:38 and with bsd/linux 22:29:39 alise, ever messed with thermal paste? 22:29:43 it is _not_ the easy part 22:29:44 Depends on how many components you have and how small your case is ;-P 22:29:46 and the cable routing 22:29:47 AnMaster: used the heat sink it came with :p 22:29:49 that is a hell 22:29:52 at least in my case 22:29:53 although he's replacing it iirc 22:30:00 once I scraped thermal paste off a cpu 22:30:00 <3 22:30:02 it still ran 22:30:02 power going everywhere 22:30:06 (I didn't realise, I was young) 22:30:20 Do what I do and ignore cable routing: just find the first working solution 22:30:23 alise, where/when was this? 22:30:32 Deewiant, yes and even that is tricky in my case 22:30:39 on my computer... I was young, as I said. 22:30:40 Yep, same here 22:30:43 Which is why I do that ;-P 22:30:49 Deewiant, it is a tower but not an excessively large one 22:30:49 Didn't Dan's Data find out toothpaste worked well for a time as a thermal paste? 22:30:57 Like a day or so 22:31:12 Deewiant, at least I only have the PATA cd nowdays, no PATA harddrive 22:31:24 those cables are a hell 22:31:31 No floppy drive? :-/ 22:31:56 Deewiant, well, not any more, it made the computer refuse to boot when plugged in one day 22:32:03 heh 22:32:44 Deewiant, it is still in the case since I couldn't find the piece to fill the hole at the front 22:32:53 heh 22:33:06 It's more attractive anyway 22:33:16 oh I guess it does look nice indeed 22:36:16 i want to live on a mountain of computers 22:36:32 hey, the hole is ventilation! 22:36:37 I want to have one very good computer. 22:36:38 you're not SUPPOSED to put floppy drives there! 22:36:46 Phantom_Hoover: how much money do you have? 22:37:00 IIRC Edinburgh University has a supercomputer somewhere. 22:37:05 Perhaps I can steal it. 22:37:06 NOT MANY PEOPLE KNOW THIS but I came up with a parts list of an top-of-the-line computer costing $1,600... 22:37:12 NO! 22:37:14 I NEED MY PROFIT! 22:37:21 :'( 22:37:28 Oh, do tell. 22:38:11 came up with in what sense 22:38:14 i don't understand 22:38:18 Just bsmntbombdood's rig... rubbish graphics card but an i7 CPU, 12 GiB of DDR3 RAM, 80 GiB SSD + 1 or 2 TB disk 22:38:35 no, i have an i7 with ddr2 ram... 22:38:40 oklopol: Not much at all I just found parts that like each other on newegg to maximise cost/performance ratio :P 22:38:46 bsmntbombdood: har har har -- (you are joking right) 22:39:03 Hmm, I also get access to Ulster University's computer place in a few weeks. 22:39:09 just pointing out the redundancy 22:39:11 Perhaps I can steal something from there. 22:39:22 -!- Halph has joined. 22:39:24 bsmntbombdood: yeah but most people won't know ... then again i guess they won't know i7 either 22:39:46 -!- tombom_ has joined. 22:40:40 alise, oh that system I mentioned, not a rubbish GPU 22:40:40 what's a cpu 22:40:58 alise, 2 x GeForce GTS 250 22:41:00 i don't understand this 22:41:03 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:41:07 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 22:41:20 AnMaster: GTS is not rubbish but it's not "much" 22:41:35 did you need halph with your feces, pooppy? 22:41:41 :D 22:41:45 i love you oklopol. marry me 22:41:52 coppro! 22:41:54 I have a female name and the pronoun is she so you know it's acceptable 22:41:56 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:41:56 Phantom_Hoover: *pooppy 22:41:59 yes 22:42:04 Everyone's favourite Turing machine. 22:42:06 maybe we should do it 22:42:10 really 22:42:14 tonight 22:42:31 Phantom_Hoover: wat :P 22:42:32 oklopol: okay 22:42:34 alise, 2 x of them isn't too bad for GPU computation 22:42:39 oklopol: okay so i need a plane ticket, where should i get it to 22:42:47 turku 22:42:49 AnMaster: well 2 of them is good, yes. 22:42:50 alise: Remember, he said he was Turing-complete? 22:42:53 i'm not leaving the house 22:42:55 oklopol: just checking you guys have an airport right 22:42:57 Phantom_Hoover: oh yeah 22:43:03 yes, we have an airport 22:43:03 Phantom_Hoover! 22:43:04 oklopol: um i think you can get married over the internet nowadays 22:43:05 probably 22:43:10 oklopol: your job is to find out 22:43:22 do you need parental permission to get married if you're 14? what if it's not your native country the marriage will be in 22:43:23 By the power vested in me you are married. 22:43:26 and can i move in with you? 22:43:30 Phantom_Hoover: by whom 22:43:35 himself, I presume 22:43:36 I don't know. 22:43:46 i guess you can move in the room we're not using that much 22:43:53 alise, also lets see how long stuff takes on this... 22:43:59 but keep to yourself 22:44:06 i just want a sex wife 22:44:17 oklopol: certainly, can i use your internet connection 22:44:20 yes 22:44:29 * AnMaster wish there was a batch hugin stitcher command that didn't require X 22:44:31 this is silly 22:44:38 shut up AnMaster me and oklopol are having personal talk 22:44:40 X forwarding the window is slowing things down 22:44:47 alise, ? 22:44:55 AnMaster: we're getting MARRIED! 22:45:07 And I'm the priest! 22:45:09 -_- 22:45:45 AnMaster: just because you disapprove of our quasi-homosexual, underage coupling 22:45:49 doesn't mean you have to be NASTY about it 22:46:17 Phantom_Hoover: what does your nick mean 22:46:21 AARGH neural networks are annoying. 22:46:40 AnMaster: Especially nasty to be so nasty about it so soon before LGBT Pride Month. 22:46:41 oklopol: It means that I am the phantom of a hoover. 22:46:51 okay 22:46:52 What were you expecting? 22:47:04 well the other interpretation, hoover that targets phantoms 22:47:04 (US-only, is so by decree of President Obama) 22:47:23 O MY GOD 22:47:35 OBAMA IS A GAY MUSLIM KENYAN COMMUNIST. 22:47:53 pikhq, the nasty bit is about underage 22:47:56 a hoover of phantoms would be useful for the ghostbusters 22:48:08 Or indeed Luigi. 22:48:15 Gay Muslim Kenyan American Unamerican Hawai'ian Communist. 22:48:25 AnMaster: In all seriousness, I am pretty sure my (serious) consent to something is worth more than an average 16 year old's 22:48:28 (age of consent in UK) 22:48:36 Therefore, respect my goddamn marriage 22:48:36 (I would like to make it clear that my name has nothing to do with the aforementioned plumber's) 22:49:10 hm 22:49:28 That's a good point, actually. 22:49:44 137% CPU 22:49:48 wtf 22:50:12 I wouldn't trust the 16-year-olds I meet to give consent to do something very inane which I can't think of right now. 22:50:36 AnMaster: multicore 22:51:02 alise, a single thread 22:51:10 Heck, I'd say my consent -- if I give it after at least a bit of thinking -- is probably worth at least as much as the average 18 year old's. Even if it's slightly less, which I doubt, remember that all the below-average 18 year olds are allowed to consent too... 22:51:13 alise, not aggregated over several threads 22:51:15 AnMaster: Counting in-kernel time. 22:51:25 Which can easily be on multiple CPUs. 22:51:27 Of course, you can't make the age of consent "Anyone who's intelligent and informed enough to consent can consent." 22:51:30 alise: Although the NHS probably disagrees. 22:51:30 16-yo's know what they're doing 22:51:31 pikhq, hm maybe 22:51:35 Phantom_Hoover, that could explain it 22:51:37 err 22:51:38 Because that's ... a fuckpile of a legal mess. 22:51:38 pikhq, * 22:51:47 Phantom_Hoover: I could REARRANGE SOMEONE'S VAGINA. 22:51:52 And then FAIL TO COMMUNICATE WITH IT 22:51:53 STOP MESSING UP MY TAB COMPLETE (last spoken first) 22:51:54 It's also quite possible for Linux to be swapping CPUs on that process that much. :P 22:51:58 * AnMaster glares at both pikhq and Phantom_Hoover 22:52:03 two chars + tab 22:52:08 should be enough ;P 22:52:19 (that sounds like a terrible idea) 22:52:32 alise: That is extremely quicky. 22:52:43 s/quicky/squicky/ 22:52:53 Yes. Not communicating? ewwwww 22:52:55 :P 22:53:02 Is it just me, or was Bell Labs totally awesome? 22:53:07 i don't get why people think kids can't decide stuff for themselves, any 15-yo can easily live by themselves, and unless seriously retarded, of course they fucking know what it means to get married or have sex 22:53:11 They did almost everything except telephones 22:53:23 Unix... background radiation of the universe... 22:53:31 oklopol: Many 15 year olds are seriously retarded. 22:53:32 C... 22:53:38 i doubt that 22:53:44 pikhq: Hear hear. 22:53:49 Do you happen to recall high school? 22:53:57 IMO probably the biggest pandemic in society right now is how we treat children 22:54:13 This was filled with people who thought football performance *mattered* in the long run. 22:54:20 alise: No, it's general stupidity. 22:54:21 We de-educate them to be fuckheads, then stop them making informed decisions about things for years on the grounds that they're not intelligent enough yet which is OUR FAULT! 22:54:24 pikhq: or well to be more precise; i doubt they are on average any more retarded than 18-yo's 22:54:34 Phantom_Hoover: If we make our children intelligent... then stupidity is gone in a generation. 22:54:37 oklopol: Well, on that count I agree. 22:54:39 if we didn't treat them like retarded, the retarded ones would quickly be "weeded" out 22:54:50 alise: True, but the stupid leading the stupid... 22:54:50 pikhq: high school was when people started life on their own 22:54:56 I don't believe many people are inherently idiotic, without mental disabilities. 22:55:00 Sure, there is a gradient. 22:55:12 no one was retarded in high school 22:55:18 But teach the kid fucking rationality starting at an early age -- make their first things learned be how to fucking think properly because nobody can do it. 22:55:30 How to make conclusions instead of just using emotion and heuristics. 22:55:40 Then once they're literate it's just a process of adding knowledge. 22:55:40 But people in general can't think rationally. 22:55:45 Yes they freaking can! 22:55:50 Every intelligent person in the world can think properly. 22:55:55 Hell, most primary-school teachers fail at even basic mathematics. 22:55:59 They can look at evidence, come up with theories, do experiments, come to conclusions. 22:56:03 It's not about arithmetic 22:56:06 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:56:07 alise, you are overly optimistic 22:56:08 It's about being able to think. 22:56:13 Phantom_Hoover, in US or where? 22:56:16 UK. 22:56:17 I doubt it is same in all countries 22:56:25 Phantom_Hoover, what about in China? 22:56:30 AnMaster: So, let me get this straight: You think that the vast majority of the human race is inherently stupid and can only think with emotion and heuristics? 22:56:45 alise, no, not the vast majority 22:56:49 * Sgeo_ goes to watch the Stargate movie 22:56:50 One, no, most people are slightly intelligent, and if you can be slightly intelligent you can be moreso. 22:56:58 Two, bullshit. 22:57:05 That would make intelligent people an extremely statistical outlier 22:57:07 alise, but I think " Every intelligent person in the world can think properly." is a gross exaggeration in the other direction 22:57:07 They're not 22:57:18 Umm. 22:57:23 AnMaster: So name an intelligent person who can't think properly. 22:57:44 hm actually, I misread that 22:57:57 alise, somehow I did s/intelligent// 22:58:09 my new claim is thus that far from everyone is intelligent enough 22:58:10 Anyway, it's simple fact that today's education system makes people stupid. 22:58:19 on that I agree 22:58:44 It's a conformity factory. It was not designed to produce intelligence. It was designed to produce office workers. 22:59:04 Ahaha. There's an ad saying "See something? [relating to illegal downloads] Report it!" 22:59:12 And education can never work unless we teach people to think properly as the core part of it... schools are just about stuffing facts, but they stuff facts into brains without telling them how to utilise them first 22:59:13 This ad is on YouTube 22:59:16 pikhq: in tv series us people are in high school like in 3rd to 6th grade 22:59:19 and stuffing facts is not how you do mathematics ... or anything 22:59:20 err 22:59:36 like finnish people (when i was growing up at least) are in 3rd to 6th ... 23:00:00 Anyway I doubt education levels will sufficiently improve 23:00:08 but that's probably true for finnish tv series too, i just don't watch them 23:00:09 because most people capable of educating a child properly will decide not to have one 23:01:00 oklopol, eh? 23:01:09 what? why would someone not want a child 23:01:40 They represent a huge amount of time, money and effort. 23:01:44 AnMaster: they're idiots, "wah wah people don't like me wah wah i had my period it's so embarrassing" 23:01:57 To the entire end that your genes will live on. 23:02:03 Well, here's the reasons: 23:02:03 oklopol, sitcoms? 23:02:08 Which isn't much good. 23:02:09 - the world is overpopulated already 23:02:11 no any tv series 23:02:13 Since you're dead. 23:02:18 - there is so much suffering and stupidity in the world that putting someone new into it is basically cruelty 23:02:21 oklopol, hm lets see. Star Trek 23:02:26 oklopol, is it the case there? 23:02:26 - it's basically a selfish thing to do 23:02:31 not that I remember 23:02:36 - i like sleep 23:02:45 - other selfish reasons counteracting the selfishness like the money, effort, etc. 23:03:09 oklopol, in fact I seem to remember quite a different view on things there. 23:03:32 alise: no, 1) no one cares about overpopulation 2) there's very little suffering or stupidity in the world, and life is awesome 3) yes 23:03:36 4) me too 23:03:44 oh 23:03:50 sorry i read that as "i like sheep" 23:03:53 :D 23:04:08 okay then 4) who cares get a wife and just do the interesting parts 23:04:21 5) there's always enough money 23:04:26 1) I care about overpopulation 23:04:37 oklopol, are you ignoring my counterproof? 23:04:41 2) Life is fucking shit; for one pain is still around, for two poverty is still around, ... 23:04:47 well you're still making a negative impact to it by just having one child per pair of humans 23:04:50 4) you can't sleep with a baby. 23:04:56 5) lucky you. 23:05:12 AnMaster: i haven't watched star trek 23:05:12 anyway i'm trying to convince oklopol of something, why 23:05:19 oklopol, okay, I suggest you do 23:05:29 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:05:38 alise: pain and poverty might be around, but not for the kid 23:05:41 alise, it is probably pointless unless it is about math 23:05:46 mr kid will grow up 23:05:50 so what's wrong with adding humans with GOOD lives? 23:06:02 oklopol: overpopulation. and nobody has a truly good life 23:06:07 yes they do 23:06:10 AnMaster: and besides it'd ruin him, he's only fun because he's crazy 23:06:11 oklopol, are you taking an utilitarian view here? 23:06:14 no 23:06:16 oklopol: Have you ever had pain? 23:06:23 alise is bitter. 23:06:31 Phantom_Hoover: no, actually 23:06:36 this was my view before all this crap. 23:06:56 " alise, it is probably pointless unless it is about math" <<< yeah alise convincing me of being wrong about something in math, that sounds pointful. 23:06:59 :D 23:07:01 alise, so you were bitter before then too? 23:07:03 So you're basically one of the "life isn't worth living" people? 23:07:11 No! 23:07:23 Always look at the bright side of life! 23:07:24 I just think that there's a lot of suffering in the world and we should work on making it better before subjecting other people to it 23:07:28 alise, ^ 23:07:38 alise: had pain? i've experienced pain, it's an interesting feeling, but you don't really get to try it much 23:07:41 AnMaster: you know, that was said while nailed to a cross 23:07:49 oklopol: well see this is why you don't understand :P 23:07:52 alise, duh I seen the movie 23:07:56 AnMaster: just mentioning 23:07:58 alise, it was a joke 23:08:00 alise: True, but if we decide to fix suffering and then have children we'll all be old and infertile. 23:08:13 The world ends with a whimper. 23:08:35 Oh come on, that's a ridiculous thing to say. 23:08:38 -!- coppro has joined. 23:08:39 alise, I guess I was using it as meta-meta-sarcasm 23:08:41 We're going to get old and infertile too. 23:08:43 *anyway 23:08:52 alise: intelligent people will not understand because they've used their intelligence to make their lives awesome. 23:08:58 therefore they will reproduce. 23:09:01 If we manage to eliminate suffering we'll have the technological prowess to create babies whatever it takes 23:09:04 alise: Yes, but if we produce no more potentially fertile individuals. 23:09:12 eliminating suffering involves eliminating all illness, all pain, death, aging... 23:09:19 So if you can do that, what's one teeny little baby 23:09:30 alise: had pain? i've experienced pain, it's an interesting feeling, but you don't really get to try it much <-- sure? put your hand in boiling water 23:09:34 if you want to try it 23:09:35 :P 23:09:44 sometimes i do 23:09:49 suuure 23:09:52 You know, some people don't feel pain as pain, just as a tingling feeling. 23:09:52 alise: not necessarily 23:09:54 there is another means to eliminating suffering 23:09:54 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:09:55 and that would imply the nonexistence of human technology 23:09:56 alise: So basically your logic is that we shouldn't have children until the singularity? 23:09:57 Perhaps oklopol is the same... 23:10:00 i seem to have an extremely high threshold for getting burns 23:10:02 oklopol, only by mistake I presume? 23:10:04 coppro: it would imply the nonexistence of humans! 23:10:15 Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much. Yep. 23:10:25 err, yes, I didn't say what I meant to say. It would imply us not having any technology 23:10:26 alise, solution: Matrix 23:10:33 AnMaster: well no, i don't get sexual pleasure from pain, but it's a fun thing to try occasionally 23:10:35 alise: And what if the singularity is unattainable within a human lifetime? 23:10:36 coppro: really? 23:10:39 life is about experiencing stuff 23:10:42 oklopol, .... 23:10:45 coppro: A wild lifestyle would be very painful. 23:10:48 alise: there would be no us to have it 23:10:53 coppro: right, that's what i said. 23:10:55 oklopol, you know, I never considered it that far 23:11:01 well we'd have to completely genociderate all people 23:11:09 and animals 23:11:10 and everything 23:11:22 alise: What about my question? 23:11:44 right 23:11:51 gogo buddhism 23:12:03 If it turns out that we don't have the time to attain the singularity in our lifetimes, we pretty much need to have children, or delegate everything to computers 23:12:18 Which kind of defeats the point. 23:12:23 coppro: are you a buddhist? 23:12:29 I don't think insects can gain enlightenment 23:12:33 and killing them would be against buddhism 23:12:34 so... 23:12:58 Phantom_Hoover: true, having babies for the purpose of introducing more intelligent people who will help the singularity happen is a good reason. 23:13:13 dunno if i'm altruistic enough to subject myself to that :P 23:13:31 alise: no 23:13:32 alise, afaik that is not what most variants of Buddhism says. 23:13:42 Meh, hopefully there'll be robots to do childcare. 23:13:44 the only good reason to have babies is they are probably the most interesting thing there is, i mean come on you have your own fucking HUMAN :d 23:13:47 coppro: no what? 23:13:52 I am not a buddhist 23:13:55 right 23:14:05 AnMaster: Any sect of Buddhism that permits any sort of killing is probably not Buddhism. 23:14:16 and you can teach all sorts of magic 23:14:33 I know there are several distorted sects of "Buddhism" that teach things like the existence of a material, tangible Hell like in Christianity and have a lot of bloodlust towards rival sects 23:14:38 buddhism is just weird nihilism 23:14:38 but that's not really buddhism at all 23:14:47 No, buddhism is not nihilism 23:14:55 Nihilism would advocate no option in particular when presented with a list 23:15:04 buddhism would always advocate towards total enlightenment 23:15:22 not that form of nihilism 23:15:23 is there really any difference between anything 23:15:34 the form of nihilism that advocates destruction of everything 23:15:37 yes there is don't be stupid 23:16:03 alise: anyway i suppose those were my strongest opinions 23:16:13 oh wait i had something about languages 23:16:17 right natlangs suck 23:16:21 that i haven't ranted about for a while 23:16:27 coppro: no, buddhism is totally not that! 23:16:28 Singularity. 23:16:37 but i think i've covered the others 23:16:38 alise: I agree 23:16:40 buddhism doesn't advocate the destruction of anything 23:16:55 it advocates achieving enlightenment, then snuffing yourself out by becoming one with everything or some mystical shit like that 23:16:57 i should choose more opinions 23:16:58 they advocate attaining a state of nothingness 23:17:14 destruction? impossible. Law of conservation of energy. 23:17:16 they equate nothingness with everythingness though, do they not? 23:17:22 and they don't consider plain suicide achieving that 23:17:29 of course, it might be a lot less easy to put something back 23:17:31 only death after enlightenment, which is basically your highest point anyway 23:17:34 blame entropy 23:17:34 and so completes your life to the full 23:18:34 I argue that nothing is ever destroyed. It is at most converted into another form 23:19:06 AnMaster: Except the Cathedral of Chalesm. 23:19:12 Phantom_Hoover, augh 23:19:31 augh? 23:19:50 Phantom_Hoover, like "aaaaargh" kind of 23:20:03 Phantom_Hoover, very bad joke/reference 23:20:05 IMO 23:20:10 Wait, you got the reference! 23:20:16 of course 23:20:23 * Phantom_Hoover awards AnMaster with a shoe 23:20:45 Phantom_Hoover, eh? wouldn't a towel be more fitting? 23:20:57 THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE EXPECTING 23:21:09 okay that one made no sense whatsoever 23:21:11 what was the reference about 23:21:25 oklopol, hitchhikers guide to the galaxy 23:21:30 surely you read it? 23:21:31 Google it. 23:21:34 i have not 23:21:39 It's in the 3rd book. 23:21:39 oklopol, then do so 23:21:40 i don't read fiction usually 23:21:49 oklopol: Make an exception. 23:21:51 Phantom_Hoover: i don't read google either 23:21:52 oklopol, it is a classic, everyone should know it 23:21:56 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 23:22:01 no oklopol doesn't have to do anything 23:22:02 stop that 23:22:05 i like him just as he is 23:22:10 * alise puts oklopol in my pocket 23:22:10 -_- 23:22:10 well i've read dostojevski's idiot 23:22:16 that's classic enough for one lifetime 23:22:30 oklopol, this is scifi though 23:22:38 SHUT UP ANMASTER 23:22:44 alise, no 23:22:45 you assume i like scifi? 23:22:57 oklopol, yes 23:23:01 oklopol, don't you? 23:23:07 well i guess i do :) 23:23:21 oklopol, also humoristic, not dead serious at all 23:23:27 i liked idiot too 23:23:31 Humoristic is very much not a word. 23:23:36 Humorous, please. 23:23:52 anyway i really must get around to making a nicely typeset H2G2 23:24:04 i mean it wasn't as intelligent as south park, but it had some good points. 23:24:19 all I need is a copy with `` '' quotes, and some sort of easy marking for the italic sections 23:24:22 then i can work some magic on it 23:24:41 but yeah maybe i should read h2g2, at least i've decided to do that about 50 times 23:25:09 oklopol: buy it in dead tree, the online versions are shit 23:25:20 oklopol: and you can get all the five books in one so it's so thick you can barely hold it, it's wonderful 23:25:35 Anyone here read Goedel, Escher, Bach? 23:25:38 Well, I have it in paperback. 23:25:39 Yes, paperback. 23:25:47 It is the most ludicrously thick paperback imaginable. 23:25:51 I have it in paperback too. 23:25:56 Well, it's not mine. 23:25:59 Phantom_Hoover: Isn't it ridiculous??? 23:26:08 I borrowed it without intent of giving back. 23:26:11 i was gonna order geb but for some reason i didn't 23:26:19 It's not that good a book 23:26:21 I haven't actually read it. 23:26:29 I love the dialogues, though 23:26:32 especially the one at the end 23:27:13 it's not good? i thought it was a book where the characters are gliders in gol and they have a whole new kind of society of gliders that unravels before the readers sweaty eyes 23:27:54 no 23:28:33 but is it SORT OF like that 23:28:55 oklopol: it's about goedel's incompleteness theorems and computation and consciousness and it has a ton of tortoise/achilles dialogues including ones where characters that are fictional and real in the universe swap half way through, the universe nests too much, and other things... and some other things. 23:29:08 the computation parts are not that much, it's mostly all about how it links together 23:29:12 DANGIT 23:29:19 although i skipped over a lot of the TNT parts because it was just tedious symbol-manipulation to prove things 23:29:21 :This video contains content from Lionsgate, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds. 23:29:21 : 23:29:22 so if you like proofs it's good. 23:29:57 well i do like the occasional tedious symbol manipulation 23:31:24 usually books meant for the layman have more of those really ugly symbol manipulation proofs than mathematical texts that consists only of proofs, i suppose this is because the point is not to actually teach anything, but to be able to copypaste some bullshit in the book that some nerd can read and think he's real tough 23:31:32 *consist 23:31:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:32:12 you know those pathetic retards that read that sort of books and then they're all like "im hardcore brain boy" 23:32:17 oklopol: well it actually goes through goedel's incompleteness theorem in the formal system 23:32:20 in extreme depth 23:32:24 ah cool 23:32:29 yeah i wasn't really being serious 23:32:31 it is mostly symbol manipulation, though :P 23:32:38 althought what i said is true often, i guess 23:32:38 Humoristic is very much not a word. 23:32:39 Humorous, please. 23:32:46 humousistic ;P 23:32:53 (whatever that is) 23:32:55 houmous 23:33:01 alise, yep, indeed no r 23:33:07 humoristical 23:33:38 alise, anyway it would be logical if humoristic was a word 23:33:45 it would follow the pattern of other words 23:34:00 It's a word if you believe the American dictionaries, at least. 23:34:11 alise, also humoristisk in Swedish 23:34:17 But "humor" is the incorrect spelling, and I wouldn't even accept the abomination humouristic when the far superior word humorous is already there. 23:34:18 And F U too, Lionsgate 23:34:25 alise, I accept both US and UK spellings 23:35:06 alise, and I can't see a reason why it is "far superior" 23:35:34 alise: if i use humor in writing and use humour when talking, does that sort of balance it out? 23:35:38 Okay, the humor thing was basically a troll. 23:35:47 But humouristic sounds idiotic. 23:35:54 It is incredibly inelegant and just makes you sound, well, Swedish. 23:36:02 alise, only to someone used to UK English 23:36:10 Or US English. 23:36:14 alise, actually a Dane could manage it too 23:36:15 I bet 23:36:26 ju det r ett humristikalt ord 23:36:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:36:38 oklopol, what the heck was that 23:36:49 pseudo Swedish 23:36:50 it was perfect swedish 23:36:54 *jo 23:36:54 pseudo Swedish! 23:36:55 typo 23:36:58 ah 23:37:11 oklopol, wth would "humöristikalt" mean though 23:37:26 humör != humor 23:37:31 well see 23:37:44 humristikalt to you is what humoristical sounds to an english dude 23:37:50 i'm just trying to drive alise's point home 23:37:52 XD 23:37:56 != ≠ ≠ 23:38:11 alise, humör = mood, humor = humour 23:38:18 oh it's a word 23:38:25 oh right 23:38:36 oklopol, yep, which is why it confused the hell out of me 23:38:58 can you use it in a sentence 23:39:04 hm google translate also suggests "temper" for "humör" 23:39:06 no need to translate because i'm awesome 23:39:09 oklopol, which? "humör"= 23:39:16 s/=/?/ 23:39:25 eys 23:39:27 yes 23:39:40 oklopol, if yes: "jag är på dåligt humör" 23:39:45 (not that I am currently) 23:39:54 thanx 23:40:05 oklopol, and for the benefit of alise it means "I'm in a bad mood" 23:40:11 which I'm not indeed 23:40:44 could be "bad temper" also 23:41:02 not sure which is the best translation 23:41:06 can you do something like not that i am currently == jag r inte dock just nu 23:41:23 dock being a guess based on doch 23:41:39 oklopol, what would "doch" be? 23:41:51 german 23:41:58 I don't speak German 23:42:03 is it something like "alas"? 23:42:07 that wasn't the question 23:42:13 in any case, the word order was wrong there. 23:42:18 I'm trying to figure it out 23:42:27 just nu r jag ...? 23:42:41 i don't know how the dock works if it's the correct word 23:42:50 "jag är inte dock just nu" ~ "I am not alas right now". It ends up as wrong word order in English too 23:42:53 hello sweeties 23:42:58 who needs help with german 23:43:18 oklopol, "jag är just nu dock inte på dåligt humör" would work 23:43:32 okay that looks good 23:43:41 also dock ~ doch ~ though 23:43:53 oklopol, dock sounds somewhat formal 23:44:09 oklopol, I would use it in everyday speech but that tells more about me than about how it is used :P 23:44:13 yeah i thought it's probably not really the best for swedish 23:44:24 but i don't know swedish very well 23:44:33 i'm telling you this because you probably couldn't tell 23:44:34 Hei, mitä kuuluu? :P 23:44:41 hyv kuuluu ent sulle 23:44:53 kulli kdes oottelen vastaustas 23:45:04 Wait, you actually know Finnish? 23:45:11 oklopol, hm 23:45:11 a bit 23:45:12 He's Finish, you idiot. 23:45:14 *Finnish 23:45:15 :P 23:45:27 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 23:45:52 uorygl: mik maksaa hpnassu 23:45:53 uorygl, you for Finnish? 23:46:07 AnMaster: hmm? 23:46:10 oklopol, um, how do you pronounce "höpönassu"? 23:46:30 It's pronounced HÖ-pö-nas-su. 23:46:32 in Swedish it would be tricky and sound very very funny 23:46:37 * uorygl coughs. 23:47:09 uorygl, how very helpful (not) 23:47:16 almost like swedish except our u is your o, and you have to remember x is always short, xx is always long 23:47:20 well, a bit, not much 23:47:27 oklopol, ah much more helpful 23:47:34 oklopol, but there is no x in there 23:47:40 for all letters x 23:47:43 ah 23:47:43 *sounds 23:47:46 oklopol: just a minute, I've almost finished decoding the first thing you said. :P 23:47:53 well sounds==letters 23:47:59 oklopol, ah 23:48:05 uorygl: you probably shouldn't translate the rest... :P 23:48:09 oklopol, so that is a long s? 23:48:19 en massa av ... has it 23:48:22 er 23:48:30 possibly that's not exactly swedish 23:48:31 oklopol, not like in Swedish where "ass" in there would make a short a followed by a normal s? 23:48:35 maybe i should just use english :P 23:48:54 like the s's in "piss sack" 23:48:54 en massa av ... has it 23:48:55 what? 23:49:04 has the double ss 23:49:06 *s 23:49:08 hm 23:49:44 Hyvä... entä... sinä... 23:49:55 Where were we? 23:49:56 uorygl: second one you should be able to translate, although it's colloquial, the third one might be challenging 23:50:11 *Hyv 23:50:15 oh 23:50:18 that was word-by-word 23:50:33 or umm i dunno what it was 23:51:09 oklopol, hm does fi allow concatenation like Swedish does? 23:51:16 * uorygl decides he can leave "kulli" out of his flash cards for now. 23:51:20 :D 23:51:31 * uorygl decides he can leave "kulli" out of his flash cards for now. <-- what? 23:51:32 yeah take jlli instead 23:52:04 AnMaster: it means penis 23:52:24 i used it when responding to uorygl 23:52:33 Eh, it's more fun to say my own stuff instead of trying to figure out what other people are saying. :P 23:52:36 what does memory cards have to do with this 23:52:39 oklopol: Why do you guys speak Japanese with a funny cypher? 23:52:53 uorygl: well it's fun to read what you say so go ahead 23:53:00 Because Finnish is the Sacred Language of Things for Which Finnish is Used as a Sacred Language. 23:53:31 What's "kädes" supposed to be, anyway? 23:53:34 pikhq: you should ask a linguist 23:53:37 uorygl: kdess 23:53:48 oklopol: He's not here right now. 23:53:50 I should probably learn what all these cases are. :) 23:53:55 argh 23:53:56 the lag 23:53:59 Inessive, aiee... 23:54:01 in finnish it's common to drop stuff from most words 23:54:04 inessive, yes 23:54:09 * AnMaster saw a LOT arrive in a single second 23:54:33 So, from käsi, hand-or-something. 23:54:36 yes 23:54:37 everything after "* uorygl decides he can leave "kulli" out of his flash cards for now." up to " I should probably learn what all these cases are. :)" arrived in a single second 23:54:49 ksi -> kde is the weakening or whatever it's called 23:55:09 I have no idea what oottelen is. 23:55:17 that's oDottelen 23:55:38 but you usually drop it at least in turku, i think elsewhere too. 23:55:48 i mean at least in speech 23:56:06 uorygl, "Inessive"? wth does that mean 23:56:11 AnMaster: in X 23:56:16 INessive 23:56:22 oklopol, you have a specially word form for that? 23:56:25 wow 23:56:32 that's a linguistic term 23:56:48 Hey, it's that partitive case again. 23:56:59 but yeah we have an inessive case 23:57:09 oklopol, wow 23:57:20 uorygl: yes, plus another thing in the end too 23:57:42 AnMaster: "wow"? it's not exactly an uncommon case in languages that have those 23:57:49 How does "vastaustas" break down? 23:58:01 oklopol, hm 23:58:02 either you just have a few really generic ones, like german, or then you have these positional things too. 23:58:10 oklopol, maybe 23:58:13 uorygl: you got it except for the s 23:58:20 that's contracted from vastaustasi 23:58:25 oklopol, English and Swedish only have a few generic ones 23:58:27 vastaus - ta - si 23:58:37 Languages should have fewer cases. 23:58:41 oklopol, French has a few more iirc but not quite as much 23:58:44 And tenses. 23:58:49 pikhq, agreed 23:59:06 While we're at it, we should reduce everything to grunts and vague gestures. 23:59:15 yes 23:59:21 pikhq, hm might make communication a bit harder 23:59:25 oklopol: so what do the ta and si do? 23:59:27 but in general I agree 23:59:33 pikhq, would need to redesign IRC for it 23:59:37 uorygl: you got it already, ta is partitive 23:59:58 And the si? 23:59:59 if a word ends in s, the partitive is usually -ta (i think always)