< 1275610620 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :solved problem 1 of project euler in brainfuck :D (ok, ok, it needs a weird brainfuck with at least 18-bit wide cells and number i/o instead of character i/o) < 1275611147 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://aw.eso.me.uk/p/?show=f4b3bfce0 < 1275611150 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night guys < 1275611169 0 :ArcticDeath!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1275611204 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i just noticed that the 4th line of the loop for 3's can be shortened < 1275611206 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway... < 1275611326 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1275611493 0 :ArcticDeath!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1275611533 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jamesstanley, given 8-bit BF, you can um, simulate 8^2n bit BF easily < 1275611535 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1275611625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And itoa isn't hard to do. < 1275611682 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :itoa? < 1275611687 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int to string? < 1275611809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuh. < 1275611820 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So he could output numbers. < 1275611971 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about inputting numbers? < 1275612060 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION starts thinking about transformations of BF code and order in which such are applied < 1275612130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: That's a trivial matter of parsing. < 1275612545 0 :jabb_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1275613628 0 :Tritonio_GR1!~Tritonio@150.140.227.55 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275613650 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1275614236 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275614429 0 :DH____!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275614511 0 :DH____!~DHeadshot@host-134-225-165-163.readingconnect.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275614963 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found out how to fix the game_id so that it matched of the filename of the module: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/ruleset/ Now you must rename each file, otherwise it won't work!!!! < 1275614968 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!!!!!!!!!!! < 1275615026 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also added in a Interactive Exec command, so that you can enter a Python code at run-time. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/plugin/extra_commands.py < 1275615109 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I invented the idea for HighForth with is like Forth but with high-level functions and it can be used with other high-level functions such as JavaScript, Python, etc. < 1275615118 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An example code is: : 2+ 2 + ; < 1275615135 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which can also be written as: [[ 2 + ]] CONSTANT `2+ < 1275615161 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or: NULL DATA-OPEN 2 L, `+ , DATA-CLOSE COMPILE CONSTANT `2+ < 1275615188 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or: 2 `+ 1 CURRY CONSTANT `2+ < 1275615202 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even a bunch of other ways. < 1275615344 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or: NULL DATA-OPEN 2 L, +` EXIT` DATA-CLOSE COMPILE CONSTANT `2+ < 1275615375 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or: 2 1[[ + ]] CONSTANT `2+ < 1275615386 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or: 2 1 S[[ + ]] CONSTANT `2+ < 1275616346 0 :Tritonio_GR1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1275617404 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275617512 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1275617894 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-22-134.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1275618814 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275618814 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@wsip-72-215-77-20.lv.lv.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275618823 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is how the simple IRC log format can be written: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/SIRCL < 1275619718 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275619801 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1275620134 0 :Gregor!~Gregor@75-151-73-57-Spokane.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275621333 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275621368 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1275621675 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/tmp/BalMusetteNocturne-wipp1.mp3 Gregor attempts to play two musical instruments at once and records it poorly! < 1275621691 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor accidentally bolds things! < 1275621723 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRv8gnBMiWM < 1275621855 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1275621895 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor also uses mp3 for once! < 1275621897 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The horror! < 1275621914 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made it ogg, but the first person I sent it to I knew wouldn't be able to play a .ogg :P < 1275621930 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1275622121 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see you have no opinion on the music itself :P < 1275622145 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've not listened yet. < 1275622150 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1275624304 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: LOGGING OF FOR WEEK. MUAHAHAH. < 1275625014 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275625027 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes the log file is application/octet-stream by mistake? < 1275625139 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which IRC server softwares can be compiled with the GNU C compiler and can work on Windows and on Linux? < 1275629658 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1275629703 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seven's at git clone git://git.freenode.net/ircd-seven.git < 1275629734 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found ngIRCd I think I will use that one. If I can get it to compile < 1275630326 0 :oktolol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: did you learn to play the harmonica just for that? or is it a different instrument or you knew it already or < 1275630345 0 :oktolol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually first thought i'd just comment on everything except the music but then i thought it'd be a bit too obvious < 1275630354 0 :oktolol!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol < 1275630363 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad that you think I can do impossible things on the harmonica. < 1275630367 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how mirc shoves all my past mistakes in my face for the rest of my life < 1275630371 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's nice to know you have that kind of confidence in me. < 1275630385 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not impossible, but the kinds of things that people study the harmonica for YEARS to be able to do. < 1275630389 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, that's not a harmonica. < 1275630398 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought the fast things are just you moving your mouth over the thing < 1275630403 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err along it < 1275630417 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The chords are the real complication :P < 1275630430 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since some of them would involve tonguing an intervening hole on a harmonica. < 1275630439 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i have crappy quality, i thought there was just thirds < 1275630451 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1275630453 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1275630462 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the audio quality is bad since I don't have decent recording equipment :P < 1275630537 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not gonna continue instrument guessing? < 1275630572 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah and i'm using my laptop's speakers and they are hammering the other side of the wall and boring through it < 1275630587 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drilling < 1275630609 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's a melodica, so you wouldn't have guessed it anyway :P < 1275630617 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err i don't really know much about instruments, harmonicas and well okay make that sound < 1275630624 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the list would've included melodica < 1275630630 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i'd remembered its name < 1275630639 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that you've heard of it is astounding ... < 1275630659 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the thing you blow into and play like a piano? < 1275630686 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1275630733 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have heard the name lots of times, anyway i gotta go to uni so have fun with your instruments -> < 1275630753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er heard of the instrument or the name? < 1275630758 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the instrument is common < 1275630762 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1275630764 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Common where? < 1275630769 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd never seen one. < 1275630773 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the cool kids have them < 1275630780 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELL THEN I'M COOL NOW < 1275630784 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, i've had at least one < 1275630797 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i just met one at a thing < 1275630825 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides that he <3 Zelda music < 1275630832 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's like our national instrument dunno < 1275630833 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1275630852 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I made that decision a long time ago < 1275631705 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I loaded ngIRCd into Cygwin but now it is error message It doesn't work it says "bash: make: command not found" < 1275631873 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is wrong? < 1275632068 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have make? < 1275632344 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have make in MinGW but in Cygwin it says it doesn't? < 1275632466 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1275632551 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@wsip-72-215-77-20.lv.lv.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275634025 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which package is "make" program? < 1275634185 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What other packages are required to compile ngIRCd? < 1275634185 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1275634189 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1275634238 0 :FireyFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1275634622 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the Free Geek they now have the newest version of Ubuntu on their servers, but it has some things missing, even the "mail" command doesn't work < 1275634672 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says tell the administrator to install these softwares, he wasn't in on that day and how else can it be done without "mail" command? < 1275635217 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1275635607 0 :relet!~hirtho@159.162.68.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275635831 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cygwin installer keeps displaying error messages about files that are in use, even though they aren't in use (I checked the permissions, I also checked the processes) < 1275635861 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have one process that will not go away, process 924 cmd.exe < 1275635940 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attempting to terminate the process does nothing, attempting to debug gives error message that it cannot execute the program < 1275636063 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now Cygwin Setup seems stuck! < 1275636153 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now everything is stuck < 1275636197 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275636300 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-14-184.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275636539 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275637221 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1275637332 0 :jabb!~grue@71.94.31.166 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275637804 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...hello < 1275637805 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1275637819 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h223.13.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275637950 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi! < 1275638399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1275638400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1275638754 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this look esoteric: (0)3< (1)10< @; (1)20*(1)< (^)(,_1)>` (0)>1-< ! ? < 1275638918 0 :mtve!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1275639862 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1275639875 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does. < 1275640022 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have that running in my interpreter succesfully < 1275640712 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275641243 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I successfully got my compiler to compile a working brainfuck interpreter the other week, that was fun < 1275642270 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool, there's a low-level x86 Common Lisp implementation. < 1275642279 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Compiler for what? < 1275642507 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Got a cat example going < 1275642531 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it halt on EoF? < 1275642542 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1275642545 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just tested it < 1275643205 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, standard procedure once you have an interpreter and working examples is to post it on the wiki. < 1275643218 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I would advise you strongly not to post the interpreter there. < 1275643230 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The code, I mean) < 1275643247 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :googlecode? < 1275643252 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :github? < 1275643291 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much wherever. < 1275643314 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except the wiki is entirely public domain, so if you want to have any control over the license don't post it there. < 1275643644 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which commonly-used color space is the biggest? < 1275643696 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Colorspace.png seems relevant. < 1275643834 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1275643851 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useful, but that seems to be mostly RGB spaces < 1275643884 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rainbow? < 1275643910 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it contains every frequency of light from the sun < 1275643923 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you can't combine them... < 1275644470 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275645638 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275645751 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275645874 0 :e2e!~smithmicr@c-98-247-56-66.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275646348 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275646493 0 :Slereah!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1275646749 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1275647056 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ecanadanow.com/curiosity/2010/06/03/the-newest-high-vodka-eyeballing/ Dear god, the youth of today are stupid. < 1275647142 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope that it's just a media invention. < 1275647164 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, the thing about them burning bins to get high off the fumes seems not to have been. < 1275647221 0 :DH____!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? No they burn bins because it's fun... < 1275647255 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, admittedly the citation for that was the Metro. < 1275647278 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which has lower journalistic standards than, say, a pigeon. < 1275647313 0 :DH____!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Metro's one of the more reliable papers, I find. Would you rather beleive the Sun? Or the Mail? < 1275647323 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1275647330 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe no-one! < 1275647335 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even you! < 1275647351 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone with more underscores than letters in their nick is not to be trusted. < 1275647376 0 :DH____!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why it did that... < 1275647392 0 :DH____!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I set my name as DH and it added them to the end... < 1275647401 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :PH______________ < 1275647424 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am exceedingly untrustworthy now. < 1275647644 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1275647647 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, you seem to be up front about everything < 1275647653 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :__jabb < 1275647659 0 :__jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm unstrustworthy < 1275647675 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No you're not! < 1275647697 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your underscore:letter ratio is only 1:2. < 1275647809 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has written possibly the ugliest line of code in his life < 1275647824 0 :__jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish to see it < 1275647841 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(set-weight neuron output (+ (car range) (random (coerce (- (car range) (cdr range)) 'double-float))))) < 1275647875 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first time I tried I got lost in parentheses, so I had to undo and rewrite it very carefully. < 1275647916 0 :__jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a lisp noob < 1275647947 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I used cdr when I should have used cadr, too... < 1275648069 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I got various indices wrong. Oh well, it's fixed now. < 1275648778 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyo < 1275648859 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1275649572 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur! < 1275649636 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1275649639 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes! :D < 1275649672 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall Gracenotes ever actually saying anything... < 1275649731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hes magical < 1275649734 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he doesnt have to < 1275649789 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can be magical too!!! < 1275649801 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1275649811 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you see?? < 1275649813 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1275649815 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried learning Lisp, but that didn't work; nor did Haskell. < 1275649815 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1275649827 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :random bs < 1275649841 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, by not saying anything. < 1275649849 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't make me magical. < 1275649865 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic requires that I don't *have* to say anything. < 1275649873 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot? < 1275649884 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, no! < 1275649893 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a fairy princess < 1275649939 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a way < 1275650008 0 :softmoon!~matengneo@2001:da8:201:1172:2cbc:7636:d72d:47e9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275650054 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e2e: Which way? < 1275650071 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I < 1275650079 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't < 1275650082 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :know < 1275650139 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :levitation < 1275650228 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait thats false < 1275650242 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nm < 1275650249 0 :softmoon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do anyone know something about Lali Puna? < 1275650368 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about it < 1275650466 0 :softmoon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not know something about music < 1275650574 0 :softmoon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: softmoon < 1275651913 0 :e2e!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1275652341 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any browser scripting language other than JavaScript? < 1275652622 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1275653061 0 :__jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :html < 1275653064 0 :__jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buahahahaha < 1275653332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275653344 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275654064 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FireFly < 1275654751 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm < 1275654762 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A function that returns its argument, x → x, what's it called again? < 1275654764 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION forgets < 1275654891 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :identity function < 1275654901 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yeah, thanks < 1275654932 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a "you'll forget your own identity next" pseudo-pun waiting there. < 1275655079 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH______________: VBScript, PerlScript < 1275655216 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275655226 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275655433 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1275655459 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is learning about SM in Haskell < 1275655464 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I understand it, just need to see it in use. < 1275655478 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell SM? Eew. < 1275655614 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Are they standardised? < 1275655624 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean < 1275655695 0 :__jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Mimsy < 1275655735 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought "mimsy" was from Jabberwocky. < 1275655756 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"All mimsy were the borogroves, and the mome raths outgrabe." < 1275655776 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VBScript is only supported in Windows, and PerlScript requires ActivePerl and therefore also Windows. < 1275655785 0 :__jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a poem from Through the Looking Glass :P < 1275655794 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, really? < 1275655797 0 :__jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1275655806 0 :__jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabberwocky < 1275655822 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the language looks pretty good. < 1275655835 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sufficiently like line noise. < 1275655854 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it maintains a healthy disregard for whitespace. < 1275655865 0 :__jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1275655896 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks his tree-based language will be sweet. < 1275656006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH______________, that is one irritating nick! < 1275656024 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to be untrustworthy. < 1275656054 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm Phantom_Hoover, if you haven't realised) < 1275656091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did realise that from /whois < 1275656099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I suspected it before that < 1275656206 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(10:28:47) Phantom Hoover: Anyone with more underscores than letters in their nick is not to be trusted. < 1275656210 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is why. < 1275656318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1275656330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH______________, anyone with a space in their nick is not to be trusted at all < 1275656338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since that doesn't work < 1275656339 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't acutally have one. < 1275656344 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the client. < 1275656345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH______________, what about that quote then? < 1275656351 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/acutally/actually/ < 1275656353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, such clients are not to be trusted < 1275656360 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very probably. < 1275656373 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably change in a while. < 1275656402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH______________, oh? < 1275656411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw "-PH______________- VERSION Purple IRC", never heard about that < 1275656423 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, irssi had my real name on whois, and I couldn't see how to change it easily. < 1275656431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH______________, the irssi config < 1275656435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume < 1275656437 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Toying with Pidgin. It's vaguely tolerable. < 1275656445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH______________, probably called gecos or such < 1275656446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1275656452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I don't use irssi < 1275656463 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you use? < 1275656467 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH______________: /set name < 1275656474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH______________, ERC, haven't I told you before? < 1275656483 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes off to change his client again < 1275656486 0 :PH______________!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1275656612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did you see that idea a few days ago about befunge with branch delay slots? < 1275656626 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I did < 1275656657 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275656657 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to comment about that being very feral for a fingerprint but decided not to < 1275656729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not as a fingerprint I thought, but as a fungiod < 1275656756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry for slow reply, had to clean my glasses due to small accident there) < 1275656781 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You did say "as a fingerprint perhaps", but yes. < 1275656799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, maybe I did < 1275656801 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a reply isn't slow unless it takes at least five minutes to come. < 1275656810 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010-06-02 01:25:20( AnMaster) as a fingerprint perhaps < 1275656810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1275656847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, as a fingerprint it is much less useful than as a core feature of a fungoid < 1275656862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the latter would allow a nice pipeline in a hardware implementation < 1275656876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while the former would have to enable that only sometimes < 1275656883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and require dual implementation or something < 1275656979 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fingerprint? < 1275657034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, befunge98 thing, kind of like a loadable library of functions that the interpreter provides, will be loaded on A-Z < 1275657047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot uses SOCK and a few other ones for example < 1275657051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, where is fungot? fizzie! < 1275657199 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see. < 1275657203 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just arrived home today.) < 1275657218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hi! < 1275657220 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION whistles innocently < 1275657224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what? < 1275657263 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1275657269 0 :__jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's unstrustworthy < 1275657273 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kinda sorta changed my nick to fungot during a netsplit. < 1275657273 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i'm still learning < 1275657279 0 :__jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jabb < 1275657284 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :__jabb, I'm not anymore. < 1275657298 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe you < 1275657302 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No underscores, see? < 1275657305 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The nick-change seems to have not been related: RAW >>> ERROR :Closing Link: momus.zem.fi (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) <<< < 1275657315 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If it drops, it won't try to reconnect.) < 1275657493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, one underscore! < 1275657525 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, but the ratio of underscores to letters is low. < 1275657606 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot < 1275657607 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: don't take your class as any indication of decision of opinion whatsoever.). < 1275657615 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1275657615 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1275657701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It reverts to that style on startup by default. < 1275657954 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell print (show "Hello") < 1275657973 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"\"Hello\"" < 1275658090 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell print $ read "print" < 1275658091 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** Exception: Prelude.read: no parse < 1275658173 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell print $ read "1" :: Int < 1275658226 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell print (read "1" :: Int) < 1275658228 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1275658261 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!hasle;; print (read $ show "print" :: String) < 1275658266 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haslell print (read $ show "print" :: String) < 1275658280 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haslell print (read (show "print") :: String) < 1275658286 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/haslell/haskell/ < 1275658294 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell print (read (show "print") :: String) < 1275658295 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...ah < 1275658296 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :David Haskellhoff. < 1275658296 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"print" < 1275658367 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!Haskell print $ [(+1), (+2), (+3), negate] <$> 3 < 1275658376 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell print $ [(+1), (+2), (+3), negate] <$> 3 < 1275658407 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...we need lambdabot. < 1275658482 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Control.Applicative; main = print $ [(+1), (+2), (+3), negate] <$> 3 < 1275658588 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Control.Applicative; main = print $ [(+1), (+2), (+3), negate] <*> pure 3 < 1275658590 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[4,5,6,-3] < 1275658763 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275658776 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275658840 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, < 1275658842 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1275658858 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xyzzy, < 1275658859 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ni! < 1275658868 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xyzygy < 1275658882 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, < 1275658882 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ' but initialize it from a file, so i keep to 255 byte lines much pain. but oh well its a known fact that the syntax-rules word does is remove the ever so slight overhead of a function < 1275658883 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R! < 1275659053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is outdated btw. It wants to preserve the class system all the injustices that implies. < 1275659061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs < 1275659062 0 :Moult!~quassel@175.137.44.248 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275659072 0 :Moult!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1275659152 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, everything uses the class system. < 1275659157 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except JavaScript. < 1275659163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1275659172 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JavaScript: Program equality. < 1275659198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? wouldn't the ability to determine that solve the halting problem? ;P < 1275659212 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urgh. < 1275659225 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, once we get FTL travel... < 1275659236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what has that got to do with it? < 1275659306 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not much, since that's not useful if you don't have infinite memory < 1275659312 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTL → time travel → TwoDucks interpreter → halting oracle. < 1275659340 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But time travel violates quantum unitarity, though < 1275659354 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit. < 1275659375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, also it requires infinite space as well < 1275659391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how does FTL imply time travel? < 1275659391 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't stop us normally. < 1275659400 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Relativity. < 1275659408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1275659417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it allow going backward in time? < 1275659423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just slowing it down/speeding it up? < 1275659456 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It allows violation of causality, which is basically time travel. < 1275659462 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if you can go faster than light < 1275659466 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and relativity holds < 1275659470 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you travel backwards in time < 1275659556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, ah right < 1275659574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming relativity holds. < 1275660322 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1275661445 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ineiros__ < 1275661483 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275661492 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275661533 0 :ineiros__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: . < 1275661920 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why on earth one would possibly want a logical XOR operator. < 1275662004 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.227.55 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275662006 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completeness is one reason. < 1275662033 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implicit conversion of its operands to boolean type, and it looks better than !!x != !!y < 1275662070 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in what context would you need it? < 1275662232 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1275662423 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've needed a logical xor many times < 1275662440 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For what sort of things? < 1275662442 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't think of a situation tho < 1275662444 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ < 1275662458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for when i've needed exactly one of two things to be true, obviously < 1275662471 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rare, but i recall needing it multiple times < 1275662501 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recall there being a comment from Larry Wall about why he didn't want a ^^ operator because he didn't want to spend forever telling people why it didn't short-circuit. < 1275662515 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1275663120 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1275663143 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has an overwhelming desire to do low-level code < 1275664090 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm I wonder if you could use a constrain-enabled type system to automate unit testing. < 1275664104 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: make a bitchin' VM < 1275664237 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give it support for stuff like function pointers.... profit? < 1275664423 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah.. constraints and types.. so < 1275664435 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell's system only lets you specify whole sets of objects < 1275664453 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Int passes for all system-bound integer values... < 1275664502 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Define "bitchin'". < 1275664542 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you could do like (Int within [1..100])... the type checker could use that information to invalid a program based on data-sets that won't match up at runtime. < 1275664554 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I don't know. Uses something previous unused in VM design. < 1275664559 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an esoteric VM < 1275664565 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Been done. < 1275664610 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1275664627 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(t | c) where t is a type and c is a constraint. < 1275664629 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although... < 1275664636 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constraints would be like... type-level predicate functions sort of. < 1275664657 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the Lazy K spec it suggests that it could be used as bytecode for a VM. < 1275664666 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1275664688 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: well... do something different < 1275664693 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but equally bitchin' < 1275664700 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean actually write the VM. < 1275664709 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...ah < 1275664721 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K is an incredibly functional language, so it could be fun. < 1275664738 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... < 1275664752 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is thinking about constraints and type systems. < 1275664798 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conditionals would change constraints on a type. < 1275664808 0 :hiato!~nine@41-132-17-217.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1275664821 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (x>100) f (x) else x < 1275664844 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the constraint on x changes for each of those nested expressions < 1275664864 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have a couple of old BF interpreters lying around, and it would be trivial to adjust them to be more VMy. < 1275664866 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the truth-expression x is Int | x > 100 < 1275664879 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: What about a VM that operates on a tree? < 1275664891 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of the stack/register based designs. < 1275664895 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on. < 1275664917 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC lazy languages use trees to evaluate. < 1275664921 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh. < 1275664931 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1275664936 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go... < 1275664958 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH low-level functional programming is an underexplored concept, so there's nothing to build on... < 1275664965 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, let's get designing. < 1275664966 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what I like about a tree design is that you can integrate a lot of POSIX-type stuff into the language < 1275664972 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like... have a virtual filesystem of sorts < 1275664982 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you allow for naming of tree nodes as well as enumeration < 1275664988 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it would be nice if it was lazy and functional as well. < 1275665005 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so source and data should both be trees, which seems sensible. < 1275665010 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...lazy VM? I'd say only provide operations for /supporting/ lazy evaluation < 1275665014 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but make the VM itself eager < 1275665029 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baah, no! < 1275665042 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. well, if you think there's benefit to having it lazy. < 1275665042 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Low-level lazy evaluation is much interestinger. < 1275665049 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's esoteric! < 1275665055 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rofl. granted. < 1275665069 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was thinking of a practical VM... for implementing lazy languages. < 1275665072 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eager evaluation is so 19**s. < 1275665077 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or only partially lazy languages. < 1275665092 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO for example... can specify certain expressions to be lazy at a method level < 1275665102 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than having everything implicitly lazy. < 1275665133 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K is completely lazily evaluated and manages IO pretty well. < 1275665144 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...er, I meant io the language < 1275665146 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not IO < 1275665159 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1275665163 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :io is eager < 1275665165 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!wiki IO < 1275665168 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1275665168 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but methods take lazy parameters < 1275665171 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wiki IO < 1275665172 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275665180 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275665187 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!google io < 1275665189 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://google.com/search?q=io < 1275665194 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looool < 1275665196 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1275665206 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!google io programming language < 1275665207 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://google.com/search?q=io+programming+language < 1275665215 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1275665226 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like it's intended to be *useful*. < 1275665230 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOO! < 1275665254 0 :DH____!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :io =/= iota? < 1275665262 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...different. < 1275665266 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1275665271 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :io is not iota < 1275665289 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K would actually be feasible, since it runs purely at the SKI level. < 1275665293 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: usefulness doesn't exclude novelty of concept. :) < 1275665317 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's innately tree-based as it is. < 1275665338 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I was thinking of was a VM that explicitly operates on a global tree < 1275665352 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the I-less cat program, ``skk would become... < 1275665353 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then particular lazy languages could implement how laziness works. < 1275665379 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so the low-level code manipulates a tree? < 1275665391 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that's how I would see it working. < 1275665396 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then we write an interpreter for a lazy language in that? < 1275665400 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, interesting. < 1275665407 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always think a VM should model hardware somewhat closely < 1275665411 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but provide abstraction < 1275665414 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would code be in the tree as well? < 1275665420 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the low-level language. < 1275665424 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible to set it up that way. < 1275665431 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has to be tree-based code < 1275665440 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there actually a hardware structure for trees? < 1275665444 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...no. < 1275665450 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1275665454 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just wondering. < 1275665458 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1275665460 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :filesystem < 1275665461 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the only one < 1275665463 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's tree-like < 1275665473 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not strictly hardware < 1275665479 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1275665479 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just low-level. < 1275665486 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so the low-level code. < 1275665505 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's implemented as a tree, it would seem like it would be quite functional already. < 1275665514 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what I've come up with for this kind of stuff is that nodes are enumerated... and optionally can be given labels. < 1275665517 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are hierarchial < 1275665526 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you name a node x... inside the parent node y... and its parent is root < 1275665526 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1275665530 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you have /y/x < 1275665531 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to refer to x < 1275665539 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1275665579 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....so you could implement scoping rules like that perhaps. < 1275665596 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...also I'd say there should be a way to reference other nodes and jump to them. < 1275665630 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... types? < 1275665638 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most VMs have a fixed number of types < 1275665645 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regist-erbased vms like Parrot, for example < 1275665672 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have int registers, float registers, byte registers, and "object" registers < 1275665681 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :object registers basically being pointer registers... < 1275665711 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how a tree would handle types. < 1275665725 0 :saxamo!~Sax@cpe-24-90-101-159.nyc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275665730 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each node has a type? < 1275665736 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a possibility. < 1275665760 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another alternative is to have a tree for each type < 1275665761 0 :saxamo!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1275665764 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that might ruin the design. < 1275665781 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sort of loses the elegance of having a single, global tree. < 1275665785 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1275665810 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... if all of your data structures are the same byte-size < 1275665811 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all is well < 1275665816 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275665818 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best way to do that is to make pointers to everything. < 1275665837 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1275665843 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how PYthon gets dynamic typing... everything is a pointer to a single C struct. < 1275665863 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's kind of inefficient I think. < 1275665865 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... < 1275665892 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another idea is to have both a tree and a set of registers. < 1275665902 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... struct node { void *data; struct node *leaf1; struct node *leaf2; }? < 1275665918 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... binary tree? < 1275665926 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems sensible. < 1275665930 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... < 1275665936 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less you can do with it though. < 1275665954 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the SKI calculus fits nicely into a binary tree. < 1275665960 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you curry. < 1275665960 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, okay. < 1275665988 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could change it later. I think arbitrary child nodes would be fun. < 1275666011 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you could possibly simulate that. < 1275666016 0 :softmoon!~matengneo@2001:da8:201:1172:f057:b556:119:f09e JOIN :#esoteric < 1275666025 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha.. just link them altogether < 1275666046 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I assume nodes would need the type of the data as well. < 1275666072 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... binary works. If you wanted something production quality, though, you'd definitely want to take advantage of the performance benefits of using actual arrays. < 1275666082 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I suppose so. < 1275666119 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... and they'd have optional names too < 1275666127 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you want to do that? < 1275666137 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :names work better with arbitrary child nodes. < 1275666144 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mad idea: strip node size by making one of the child nodes NULL and the other a pointer to the data. < 1275666147 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least make more sense. < 1275666149 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For leaves. < 1275666167 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-nod- that works. < 1275666177 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linked list would use the other node as a next pointer. < 1275666228 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.....named nodes would be epic < 1275666245 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linkedlist/data, linkedlist/next, linkedlist/prev < 1275666246 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Named noodles would be epic < 1275666247 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for doubly-linked < 1275666274 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.return would be a node referencing the node of the calling code. :) < 1275666284 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do we want to have data in parent nodes? < 1275666291 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say so. < 1275666366 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to have homoiconicity < 1275666377 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll need a way to represent VM code in the tree < 1275666395 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an instruction that runs VM code in the tree. < 1275666419 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, soo... < 1275666433 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, we want TCness too. < 1275666441 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So control flow will be needed. < 1275666454 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, something basic will do. < 1275666467 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... there's uh.... < 1275666479 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about, say, "move to the first child of the current node if it's 0, else the second" < 1275666491 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I'd so like < 1275666495 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then have an exec instruction. < 1275666509 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"branch to node references by first child, if non-null, else branch to node in second node, if non-null" < 1275666514 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*referenced < 1275666548 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So set the first child to if 0, the second child to else, then jump to it. < 1275666563 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1275666566 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you'd probably want to segregate the tree into "code" and "data". < 1275666580 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally... that's why I thought arbitrary child size would be nice < 1275666588 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is taking ideas from his tree-based esoteric language for this < 1275666590 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like... < 1275666593 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So move the selected code into the code branch. < 1275666595 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a standard namespace for functions could be like < 1275666612 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /f < 1275666616 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /f/map < 1275666618 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /f/reduce < 1275666626 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would point to code in the tree < 1275666628 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something. < 1275666636 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with a binary tree you can still do that. < 1275666637 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under the node "f" < 1275666645 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you only have two nodes. < 1275666652 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have /data, /code/source and /code/functions. < 1275666661 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or somesuch. < 1275666684 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think having more than two nodes would benefit from named-node semantics. < 1275666707 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... here's an idea < 1275666721 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wanted like... an intermediate language < 1275666725 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that did stuff like named nodes < 1275666729 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, yeah. < 1275666733 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then a low-level... which was focused on being efficient < 1275666739 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1275666750 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we have the low-level binary tree language, and a mid-level filesystemy one? < 1275666771 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....see < 1275666800 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think binary trees will be very efficient. I'm generally considered about efficiency (even with esoteric things), so I wouldn't even use binary trees at all... < 1275666805 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*concerned < 1275666808 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my typing is terrible right now. < 1275666813 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww. < 1275666816 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... < 1275666821 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't care about efficiency < 1275666835 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then yes, that's fine. < 1275666845 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we cared much about efficiency we wouldn't be doing trees, would we? < 1275666852 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, I suppose < 1275666856 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I would do < 1275666860 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is have the low-level interface tree-less < 1275666871 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't have to do tree-lookups all the time with static information < 1275666880 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it's going to work with an ungodly amount of mallocing and referencing. < 1275666898 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pools! < 1275666947 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :malloc a fixed amount of objects, and acquire/recycle them. < 1275666956 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to limit malloc/free calls. < 1275666967 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, indeed. < 1275667000 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I were going with efficiency I'd have registers as well. < 1275667026 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't really see how you can easily implement variable-child trees, < 1275667033 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic. < 1275667035 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1275667043 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... it depends. < 1275667052 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer the intermediate code idea. < 1275667077 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, given modern computer speeds it's not really going to be a noticeable slowdown) < 1275667088 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psh < 1275667100 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1275667110 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when Google isn't interested in your ground-breaking VM research < 1275667117 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the low-level representation is inefficient < 1275667119 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then.... oh well. < 1275667121 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1275667131 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can go make their own and conquer the world more. < 1275667142 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!google recursion < 1275667143 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://google.com/search?q=recursion < 1275667221 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...hmmmmm < 1275667222 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know < 1275667229 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oldest joke ever. < 1275667231 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway. < 1275667233 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of using pointers for everything... consider a union? < 1275667238 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cows < 1275667247 0 :cows!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :fishes < 1275667250 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making nodes enumerable seems worthwhile. < 1275667260 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1275667279 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a 16-bit integer should be enough for sane addressing. < 1275667302 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe use tree nodes as your reference semantics... but then for data < 1275667303 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make the first few bits say to what depth, and then the rest specify the path taken. < 1275667306 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of referencing data < 1275667308 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use a union < 1275667315 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they'll be a fixed number of types. < 1275667321 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int, bool, float, double, etc < 1275667327 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :value types. < 1275667343 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remind me, what are unions? < 1275667360 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unions represent a combination of multiple types < 1275667366 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the size of a union is the size of the largest nested type < 1275667381 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so if you have a char and an int? < 1275667383 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can read/write to a union type with any of the nested types < 1275667395 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then does the char represent the first byte of the int? < 1275667413 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1275667414 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275667416 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of. < 1275667418 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1275667420 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: that is undefined. you are not allowed to read from a different type than the one you last wrote to < 1275667421 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That "yeah" isn't a "yeah" :P < 1275667423 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you read the union value as a char < 1275667425 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll be the first byte < 1275667434 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275667438 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"First" as in "whatever my architecture decides to lay out first" < 1275667442 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "first" in any consistent way. < 1275667446 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know. < 1275667454 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even that first is undefined, as unions can be as wonky as they want really. < 1275667459 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I needed an example quickly. < 1275667468 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally they're fairly sane but portable code shouldn't rely on the layout of a union < 1275667470 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...is unions a bad idea? :P < 1275667476 0 :hiato!~nine@41-132-216-181.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1275667486 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unions are perfectly OK so long as you use them properly. < 1275667496 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unions are a good idea if you use them to reduce the memory requirements of an array of a struct, for example < 1275667500 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1275667503 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like what they're meant for) < 1275667532 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: union value_type { char character; int integer; bool boolean; float decimal;} < 1275667536 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; < 1275667558 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like a struct < 1275667564 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1275667565 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but instead of setting the memory contents < 1275667566 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the syntax < 1275667569 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :side by side < 1275667573 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all members take up the same place in memory < 1275667581 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: not necessarily but normally yes < 1275667592 0 :fishes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1275667601 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i don't know of a single implementation that doens't so it's safe to assume so < 1275667620 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementing a union as a struct is probably valid < 1275667633 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, so is that how the data in the node is represented? < 1275667634 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define union struct < 1275667638 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nobody is any the wiser! < 1275667678 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: a union is a new kind of type. So you'd have variables of type union value_type < 1275667684 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then < 1275667689 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :union value_type x; < 1275667691 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x.character < 1275667698 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would access the union as a character... essentially. < 1275667700 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right. < 1275667710 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so how does the language use this? < 1275667726 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. how does it decide which type it wants? < 1275667732 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you specify < 1275667734 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically using a union is a way to represent all the possible value types you might want to deal with without having to use pointers. < 1275667741 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes. < 1275667752 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you choose which field to use < 1275667754 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean the tree language. < 1275667759 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... uh. < 1275667772 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, dunno. But I assume you'd only want value types as nodes < 1275667772 0 :jamesstanley!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: if you want the "char" you say x.character, if you want the "float" you say x.decimal (even thouugh it's binary not decimal... but that's what you called the field) < 1275667782 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I got that. < 1275667789 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the tree could be used to describe any kind of data structure. < 1275667795 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er... reference type structure < 1275667796 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is. < 1275667890 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the language could just set nodes < 1275667903 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, why bother making the VM deal with types? < 1275667904 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the union just gives you weakly typed values. < 1275667922 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it doesn't need to... but you'll want unions for sure then < 1275667922 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just make each node hold, say, 4 bytes and make the low-level code deal with it. < 1275667945 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... that's a possibility. That's essentially what unions do in most cases anyways. < 1275667948 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically as assembly does. < 1275667978 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... okay yeah that works. < 1275667999 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use C's weak typing semantics < 1275668005 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to implement weak typing. :P < 1275668079 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1275668087 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will you want node-references? < 1275668093 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1275668109 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as I mentioned above they can be implemented fairly elegantly. < 1275668113 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple enough to do, as long as the data type is as large as your architectures address range. < 1275668177 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a possible way to do variable length child lists btw is to make the sizing explicit somewhere < 1275668200 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the alternative is a linked list. < 1275668213 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which works for traversal... but not direct indexing. < 1275668331 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... I wonder if there's a hash algorithm you could use < 1275668335 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-205-116.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275668347 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to give you O(1) node lookup when referenced by name < 1275668356 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regardless of absolute or relative naming within the tree structure. < 1275668363 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can address at least 27 levels of a binary tree with a 4-byte address. < 1275668378 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... < 1275668385 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just use hardware-level pointers < 1275668389 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pass those around. < 1275668392 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem solved, right? < 1275668404 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And since that represents over 200 million nodes, it seems sufficient. < 1275668420 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And implementation-level pointers seem inelegant. < 1275668458 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider a 32-bit address, the first 5 bits of which specify the depth to go to. < 1275668474 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then the next 27 bits specify the directions along the nodes needed. < 1275668490 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...why do that when you can just use pointers? What would be the loss? < 1275668491 0 :softmoon!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1275668522 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a parent and child node could have totally different addresses. < 1275668606 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one solution for variable-children is to have a global hash table < 1275668610 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to use /only/ named semantics. < 1275668618 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is essentially a superset of enumeration < 1275668621 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in essence. < 1275668655 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can unite these schemes, then. < 1275668660 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1275668665 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then the trees don't actually hold the data or pointers to the data... but instead contain hash information < 1275668681 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the tree-based address is used as the hash key. < 1275668692 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, if you can ensure no collisions. < 1275668697 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1275668724 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The order of evaluation is going to have to be carefully chosen. < 1275668745 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since if you go straight down, you've only got 27 levels. < 1275668768 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... just figure out what information uniquely identifies each node. < 1275668772 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for named nodes < 1275668788 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be a) the name of the node b) the hash value of its parent < 1275668797 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actual names seem decadent for the low-level code. < 1275668808 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly. < 1275668829 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what if we use my address scheme to specify keys on a hash table? < 1275668851 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The system will run out of memory long before it runs out of addresses. < 1275668857 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... < 1275668862 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe with some revisions < 1275668867 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1275668868 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1275668888 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Particularly since my address scheme has multiple addresses for half the nodes. < 1275668911 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, there are 2^27 ways of addressing the root node. < 1275668932 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about we make the root node and its immediate children register-like? < 1275668946 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... hex? < 1275668954 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could a hex representation help with hashing? < 1275668994 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...How? < 1275669001 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...no clue, just brainstorming. < 1275669018 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see how it would possibly help. < 1275669026 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess not. < 1275669032 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, how is code represented in the tree? < 1275669049 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that depends on the code. < 1275669065 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like I said, representing it as directly linear won't work. < 1275669066 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of code we have determines how it would be represented. < 1275669076 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if its function < 1275669089 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have functions as nodes with their arguments as children. < 1275669104 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the function-nodes data would be a hash reference to the functions implementing code. < 1275669112 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at some Lazy K programs < 1275669161 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then < 1275669171 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm afraid I shall go mad if I try to work out the depth in them. < 1275669180 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, 2 should < 1275669184 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argument nodes could either be (a) data, in the case of leaves or b) unevaluated functions, in the case of branches) < 1275669188 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ignore that. < 1275669193 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...which would support lazy evaluation I think. < 1275669201 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :27 levels should be enough for a lot of LK programs. < 1275669246 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy evaluation would essentially be manipulating unevaluated program expressions as values. < 1275669259 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there should be an eagerly-evaluated language at the base of the system, though. < 1275669263 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275669268 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yep. < 1275669282 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, mmapping parts of the tree is nice. < 1275669292 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As is moving whole branches. < 1275669295 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno how mmapping works. < 1275669313 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably incorrect terminology in this case. < 1275669331 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean making two nodes point to the same data. < 1275669335 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... the hash idea would be problematic with a stateful tree, actually. < 1275669346 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the key is dependent on location. < 1275669370 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then movement of a branch would invalidate all hash-based references. < 1275669399 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't you make two keys point to the same object? < 1275669423 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really. < 1275669429 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you have an array of references < 1275669437 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as your table. < 1275669444 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the references can be the same. < 1275669451 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hash table contains the machine pointers to the nodes. < 1275669476 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two mmapped bits of tree have the same pointers for different keys. < 1275669549 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275669563 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1275669647 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so now the language. < 1275669736 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think for the low-level one that the programmer should have to specify the node structure. < 1275669773 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :_lament < 1275669822 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, lament is growing untrustworthy! < 1275669851 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what kind of semantics will be involved in specifying node structure? < 1275669881 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1275669886 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... when attempting to evaluate data as code... you'll likely want some kind of quote system, like Lisp. < 1275669905 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not really. < 1275669914 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More like db in assembly. < 1275669940 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, evaluation order needs to be considered. < 1275669973 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... this is where enumeration will come in handy < 1275669975 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do left-right < 1275669982 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :breadth first < 1275669991 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I thought that. < 1275669994 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your nodes are ordered. < 1275670015 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they'll have to be ordered for the addressing scheme to work. < 1275670025 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, for *anything* to work. < 1275670028 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'd say use arrays for node relationships... the hash table would be for naming. < 1275670064 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't naming be a high-level construct. < 1275670069 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, I have to go. < 1275670073 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be back laer. < 1275670073 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not necessarily. < 1275670076 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alrighty. < 1275670078 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/laer/later/ < 1275670094 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ya. < 1275670126 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an additional semantic that I liked was the inclusion of name-only nodes. < 1275670132 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by prefixing the name with a . < 1275670183 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for example... a language that wanted to implement functions < 1275670190 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could add a .return node to function nodes < 1275670233 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.return would contain a reference to the calling code < 1275670285 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a lazy language could implement functions by a) making a copy of the function node, to represent a lazily-evaluating code object b) set the copy's .return node to reference calling code's node. < 1275670366 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1275670521 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the inclusion of a naming scheme that's independent of the enumeration semantics < 1275670525 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would require low-level representation. < 1275670548 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the points of a VM is to be more semantically abstract than machine level code < 1275670705 0 :DH____!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg cya < 1275670707 0 :DH____!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1275671054 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders an ad-hoc addressing scheme. < 1275671102 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose that we have a network containing a whole bunch of routers. One of these routers is connected to five other routers; these other routers give their addresses as 00000111, 01011101, 10010111, 10011010, and 10101010. < 1275671151 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What should our router give its own address as to each of the other five routers in order to best express its routing ability? < 1275671190 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sup" < 1275671191 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1275671207 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I have no clue. < 1275671244 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd need to see how those other addresses were produced. < 1275671268 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That information is simply not available. < 1275671319 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that's quite complicated then. < 1275671353 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you'd need two sets of data < 1275671355 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like some kind of mask. < 1275671381 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But routing is always done to the router with the largest shared prefix. Like, all packets with a destination address beginning with 01 go to 01011101, because that's the only neighbor router that also begins with 01. < 1275671402 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay... so it's left-to-right < 1275671425 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so..... < 1275671426 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the goal is to make sure a packet never gets stuck. < 1275671511 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 01000000 || (01011101 & 11000000) < 1275671521 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's call the neighboring routers A, B, C, D and E. 00 packets go to A, 01 packets go to B, 1000 packets go to C and D, 10010 packets go to C, 10011 packets go to D, 101 packets go to E, and 11 packets go to C through E. < 1275671543 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... okay. < 1275671558 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think you'd have a depth to addresses < 1275671563 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the number of bits they check. < 1275671567 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from left to right < 1275671580 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then produce a mask from that depth < 1275671589 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (01011101 & 11000000) < 1275671606 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the right-hand byte is the mask byte for a depth-2 lookup < 1275671630 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it basically just clears out all the extraneous bits for the purpose of determining which router we should route to. < 1275671649 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that bitwise will give us 01000000 < 1275671658 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so looking for 01 < 1275671664 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the same as looking for 01000000 < 1275671676 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will just be & I think < 1275671681 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...er. < 1275671683 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not. < 1275671728 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would just be == :P < 1275671764 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd have 10000000 11000000 11100000 11110000... < 1275671780 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for different depth sizes < 1275671784 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....is this making any sense? < 1275671950 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: maybe... bitwise AND? < 1275671968 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the address could be the bitwise AND of all the routers it routes to. < 1275671985 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the semantics for routing are left-to-right, it would cover any overlaps. < 1275672076 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if something wants to ask "does router C with address 00101010 map to router B with address 00100010 " < 1275672196 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would essentially start at the left < 1275672216 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and find a bit in C that's on at the same place as in B < 1275672237 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there is one... chop it out of the search bit < 1275672249 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pass it along < 1275672321 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the first 1 to be found going left-to-right that those two bit patterns have in common is 0010 < 1275672351 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd take 00100000 < 1275672354 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negate it < 1275672361 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with address B < 1275672372 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would give you 00000010 < 1275672385 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the query we want to pass along to all of the routers routed by C < 1275672397 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C will then ask "hey do you guys route to 00000010?" < 1275672403 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they'll perform the same procedure. < 1275672425 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until you get 00000000 < 1275672443 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I guess is like "localhost" < 1275672711 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case it would be a lot of bitwise hackery < 1275673276 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... for a tree-hash algorithm < 1275673281 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's a binary tree < 1275673290 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can just have the bits reflect which branch you're talking about < 1275673311 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you start at root... the first bit tells you which branch you go to < 1275673322 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second tells you the second branch to goto, etc. < 1275673381 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would give you a depth of 32. < 1275673389 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a 32-bit address. < 1275673415 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could actually perform movement within the tree with bitwise operations only. < 1275673422 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in the low-level implementation. < 1275673497 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the lower-level language would have instructions for setting/operating a register that controls current tree location. < 1275673660 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no, the addressing would be a little more complicated than that < 1275673663 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's the basic idea. < 1275674794 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: if a router's address is the bitwise AND of the routers it routes to, a single zero will spread throughout the entire network. < 1275674942 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant OR actually. < 1275675035 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then a single 255 will spread throughout the entire network. :) < 1275675073 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that's why there needs to be a mask somewhere. < 1275675076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm anyone remember what happens in a case statement if you don't have a default: and the value turns out to be not one of the listed ones? < 1275675092 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. I'm afraid I don't understand you fully, then. < 1275675095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems gcc generates different code for not having a default: vs. having "default: break;" < 1275675102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes no sense to me < 1275675153 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know. < 1275675278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should make no diff according the C99... < 1275675279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1275675339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(§6.8.4.2, paragraph 5) < 1275675375 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: hmmm... the address needs to be something that can be bitwised with information given elsewhere to determine information about the network point. < 1275675407 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what could fill in the blanks there for "information given elsewhere" and "something that can be bitwised" < 1275676535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I just calculated what a 360° degree panorama from my camera mounted vertically at max zoom (200 mm in 35 mm equiv.) would give. With decent overlap: 52 images. This is 728 MB of RAW image data from my camera. And the final image would be at about 287.6 megapixles (this is based on overlap being gone, so 36 images instead of 52) < 1275676590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do you think you could lend me that super system at your university for the HDR stitching? I would mail you the 16 bit tiffs ;P < 1275676619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with HDR it would be even more raw data than "just" 728 MB of course!) < 1275676729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, at least zoom it is a much more manageable 11 images < 1275676733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one rotation < 1275676794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm fizzie seems away but isn't marked /away < 1275676838 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm away a majority of the time but I'm rarely marked as such. < 1275676841 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1275676879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impractical for others < 1275677295 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1275677381 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GRACENOTES IS SILLY < 1275677486 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION creates several screenfuls worth of dadaist user page < 1275678832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, why? < 1275678863 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1275678871 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1275680681 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have this thing that auto-marks me away when xlock activates, but it seems to be broken at the moment. I can never remember to actually do /away, except when leaving work. < 1275680703 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was picking up the cat from its temporary place.) < 1275681153 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275683545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway, yay I managed to make a reliable rotation function < 1275683547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that took a while < 1275683578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it likes to start at 0xffff instead of 0x0 < 1275683582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some weird reason < 1275683597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I had to handle overflow when rotating < 1275683634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now it can move reliably in multiples of (360/111.66666) degrees! < 1275683645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah weird number, but I blame crappy gears) < 1275683726 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of Lego, I guess you might've seen this one before, but it's pretty nifty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX09WnGU6ZY < 1275683854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wgets < 1275683855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1275683858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youtube-dls < 1275683871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I seen it before < 1275683906 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a custom-built thing, not a mindstorms thing. But still. < 1275683963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc "ultimate builders set" lego mindstorms ad-on set had some plotter thing < 1275683967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think I built it even < 1275683973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :low precision though < 1275684019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it used pneumatics for the pen so fairly slow speed. I mean, much slower than that video < 1275684029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also yeah the cups driver was a nice touch < 1275684041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lego one had no such bit < 1275684046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just RCX-controlled < 1275684052 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The comments refer to http://bricker.ru/images/sets/1092_brickset.jpg < 1275684135 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-3-41.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275684151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also that printer head causes some serious swaying of the whole thing < 1275684155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would reduce precision < 1275684192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah, hm http://www.peeron.com/inv/sets/1092-1 < 1275684198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that explains the old style motor < 1275684217 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"FAQ: Just a remake of the 1092a? No, I'd never seen the 1092a until now. However some of the parts came from a 8094 kit amongst others many years ago. It is made to my own design, but I acknolwedge influences and the great work of the official lego designers !" < 1275684219 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(From the poster.) < 1275684292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I do get the point of those mini figures at the control panels < 1275684297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the horse? < 1275684298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1275684305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same goes for the palm tree < 1275684337 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I don't know what's up with that. < 1275684343 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The poster seems to have a thing about horses. < 1275684348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also, I can only spot one motor < 1275684354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I can't find the second one < 1275684358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you would need at least two < 1275684364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't looked at it so closely. < 1275684380 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally I got ngIRCd to compile and run. It works now. (You can't currently connect to it from the internet; the router is not set yet and it is only in testing mode) < 1275684393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it can't be a micro motor, they are way slower, than the speed of the pen, plus rather weak (so gearing them that much is not feasible < 1275684423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah found the other one < 1275684424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1275684432 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much memory and CPU time will an IRC server software take up if I am also using the computer for a lot of other things too? < 1275684450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That depends a lot on how large a network it is. < 1275684461 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just one node < 1275684469 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so far) < 1275684469 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not a lot, then. < 1275684495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also I want to see the sensor setup < 1275684503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't seem to be standard lego sensors < 1275684506 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to completely reinstall Cygwin for it to work < 1275684516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is no way it could keep position that well without good sensors < 1275684523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lego gears have way too much slippage < 1275684528 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "FAQ: Does this use mindstorms? Nope, wiring demo board + homemade analog electronics and sensors." < 1275684550 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "FAQ: Sensor info: Horizontal positioning using homemade shaft encoder (black/white rotating lego squares you see in the vid) with a SY-CR102 photo reflector from Maplins, (only £0.89 or $1.30)." < 1275684559 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "... This is into a sampled analog input as I couldn't get full enough saturation to trigger the ext interrupt pins. There are also push buttons built into lego bricks for left and right end stop detection." < 1275684601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1275684609 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What exactlly is it you are making with the lego now? < 1275684612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "FAQ: Open source, schematics etc? Yes, I'll try to get around to this soon." < 1275684629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, me? an automated panorama taker < 1275684638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me? Nothing. < 1275684639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses mindstorms (RCX, not the new NXT, don't have that) < 1275684650 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1275684657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "FAQ: Wrote your own driver? Yes, how sad is that!!" < 1275684659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful :) < 1275684685 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know, there is a Forth for Lego systems < 1275684694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I know about pbForth yes < 1275684702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm using BrickOS and C here < 1275684723 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C would probably be faster anyways < 1275684732 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Forth is almost as fast as C < 1275684735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well, I'm doing rather embedded C... < 1275684756 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, C is generally faster < 1275684758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, an example is: http://sprunge.us/QXMB < 1275684765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you might want to see that too < 1275684769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice busy loop on CPU :) < 1275684800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I'm not using brickOS as such, I'm using a patched version called bibo, since it fixes lots of bugs and upstream brickOS development is dead < 1275684823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however bibo dropped the preemptive multitasking in favour of cooperative multitasking < 1275684865 0 :ais523!~ais523@cpc2-king8-0-0-cust831.perr.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275684865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1275684865 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275684866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with quite good reasons < 1275684874 0 :ws!wswieb@akson.sgh.waw.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1275684880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interrupts caused quite a bit of overhead < 1275684885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hi < 1275684914 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I can just use "sprunge QXMB", sprunge pastebin really is very better than the other one, I think < 1275684943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what? did you add an alias in your browser or such? < 1275684950 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, command-line < 1275684964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, sprunge for me pastes to it, not views paste on it... < 1275684975 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I type "sprunge QXMB" at the command-line and it put output to stdout < 1275684980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1275684985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, and how do you paste to it? < 1275684993 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For me, I wrote my own script. "sprunge" without a argument pastes to it, with a argument views it < 1275685002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, and to paste a file to it? < 1275685011 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just type "sprunge < file.txt" < 1275685018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi AnMaster < 1275685052 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is written using NT command script, but a similar way could be done in UNIX < 1275685077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, whole current source is http://sprunge.us/ffMD < 1275685110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think you would be interested in it, but since you filter urls... and 156 lines is a bit too long for IRC directly :P < 1275685139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, sure, I use a sprunge() { curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us; } simply < 1275685145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I can redirect input to it < 1275685147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: < 1275685150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sprunge < panobot.c < 1275685156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or: < 1275685160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo | sprunge < 1275685177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I don't need a viewing script for it < 1275685181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure, would be trivial < 1275685198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just: < 1275685201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curl http://sprunge.us/ffMD < 1275685215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah making the shell function do that would be trivial < 1275685222 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.71.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275685225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't even have it as a script, just a shell function) < 1275685227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hi! < 1275685251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1275685285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :building wise the only thing that remains on my panoramic head is the shutter trigger < 1275685299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how feasible it would be to trigger it electronically using the remote shutter thingy < 1275685305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I have the required stuff < 1275685315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to build a controlling circuit < 1275685334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't know the wiring < 1275685338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has 3 pins < 1275685359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so mechanical trigger it is < 1275685416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question remains: how < 1275685470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think the light sensor needs some adjustment to work well < 1275685471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is criminal that these weekends are so short. < 1275685513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:55:34 Wow, Eliezer Yudkowsky is very odd. < 1275685514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:56:59 Apparently not signing your children up for cryonics makes you a bad person. < 1275685514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you support cryonics this is perfectly reasonable: you are basically sentencing them to death -- like Logan's Run except you set the date at 80-odd. < 1275685526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:59:27 OTOH, my philosophy makes cryonics pointless, so... < 1275685526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My Philosophy" is almost as irritating a phrase as "My GIRLFRIEND". < 1275685544 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the allcaps? < 1275685556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's how "my girlfriend" is pronounced in my internal vocalising system. < 1275685560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1275685560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:30:02 lament: Doesn't cryonics work by freezing you after you die? < 1275685560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's supposing ~(cryonics works) to prove ~(cryonics works). < 1275685570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, aren't you going to move abroad? < 1275685586 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: don't encourage her... < 1275685589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway even if I didn't accept cryonics I do not believe that any definition of death other than information-theoretic death is acceptable. < 1275685596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ? < 1275685601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to be "when your heart stopped". < 1275685607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Don't encourage me to what, and why? < 1275685624 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm not sure actually < 1275685630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1275685635 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a pronoun discussion in another channel, so I was more hoping reaction to that < 1275685657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's a good thing you didn't mean anything because almost any meaning I can assign to that line offends me :) < 1275685673 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1275685684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(let (how 'penumatic)) < 1275685688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that works < 1275685692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modulo spelling < 1275685702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suboptimal but works < 1275685725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't suppose you have any eso solutions to my problem? < 1275685753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to which problem? the one that we mostly only talk about in private? no < 1275685772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did invent a new esolang in my head a few nights ago, though < 1275685779 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no name yet, no real fixed syntax, just semantics < 1275685783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I has liek a private network of informational dissemination < 1275685793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually this ircd really needs to support /query a,b,c. < 1275685793 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How does it work? < 1275685801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be very useful for ad-hoc privacy. < 1275685810 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is /query a,b,c < 1275685813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, there are a finite number of variables, chosen by the person writing the program < 1275685817 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each is a rational number < 1275685825 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: query/privmsg with more than two people < 1275685827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you can do "PRIVMSG a,b,c :poop" in the IRC RFC protocols < 1275685829 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Freenode blocks it < 1275685832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to send a message to a, b, and c < 1275685839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: say, does the message indicate the other recipients? < 1275685843 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each variable stores an unbounded rational number, and is initialised to 1 < 1275685844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should do, so that it operates as an ad-hoc channel < 1275685849 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I think so, probably at the start of the line < 1275685858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How? < 1275685861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just the hostname. < 1275685875 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, :hostname.whatever PRIVMSG a,b,c :poop < 1275685877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I'd expect < 1275685887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1275685897 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be rather long though < 1275685902 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275685914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program is full of statements like a = b + c and f = g / h < 1275685917 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1275685927 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, assigning the result of an arithmetic operation to a variable < 1275685928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, so currently that just sounds like rational arithmetic. < 1275685930 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1275685935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: although really -- don't you want a*b and ^-1? < 1275685941 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I don't < 1275685946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: whysoever not? < 1275685960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, + - * / are what exist < 1275685965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:17:15 And Ruby is implemented in C? [...] 02:17:35 THEN IT'S NOT TC. < 1275685971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure yet if you're allowed to use constants rather than variables < 1275685975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's just that MRI isn't actually a Ruby implementation < 1275685984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you don't need full - and /... < 1275685987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just infix - and ^-1 < 1275685988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, the eso part: the program runs statements at random < 1275685997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: TARPIT IT GRRRR < 1275686004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, each time it runs a statement, it picks a random statement and runs it < 1275686010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program terminates if it tries to do a division by 0 < 1275686015 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question: is this TC? < 1275686027 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not obvious either way, I've been thinking about it for a while < 1275686030 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have made a esolang where dividing by zero is the only form of flow control < 1275686053 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and it's possible that removing + and * and arbitrary / would change the computational class; the random execution prevents you "lumping" statements easily) < 1275686061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can it do deterministic computation at all? < 1275686068 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know if it is TC? < 1275686076 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps post it on the wiki, and then we can see < 1275686083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think so, if you use enough variables; but I'm not sure if it can do /useful/ deterministic computation < 1275686092 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to work out syntax and a name before I post it on the wiki... < 1275686098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how do you mean with enough variables? < 1275686118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, suppose you want to calculate a + b + c + d < 1275686121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well apart from the degenerate case of only one expression < 1275686129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah okay, order is irrelevant there < 1275686134 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use temp variables, as in e = a + b; f = e + c; g + c + d < 1275686155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, only two variables and one operator per assignment? < 1275686161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if it's the only thing you ever calculate and all the variables are >= 1, then you know that g is <= the actual answer < 1275686162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all times < 1275686165 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's it < 1275686166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:37:21 (set-weight neuron output (+ (car range) (random (coerce (- (car range) (cdr range)) 'double-float))))) < 1275686171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set-weight --> setf (weight neuron) < 1275686176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lern2lithp < 1275686189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you know set-weight isn't a macro that does that? < 1275686189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: If it's TC, then randomness shouldn't matter. < 1275686196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Also, no, you define setf macros. < 1275686199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They can do anything. < 1275686208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything that sets should be (setf (some-relevant-accessor x) ...). < 1275686216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Lisp good-practice. < 1275686221 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's obviously nondeterministic, but as you say, I think it's entirely possible that you can arrange things so the randomness is irrelevant < 1275686253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, no, because you could just by chance get 1,2,3,... out of a randomness generator every time < 1275686255 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is the esolang where it is not TC, but there is a command that makes it TC < 1275686262 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least that is what it says. < 1275686263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if it's actually tc it has to work with every "random" result < 1275686267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the randomness is irrelevant < 1275686269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oerjan's thing yeah? < 1275686272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HQ9+ extension < 1275686278 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, I mean that. < 1275686285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, does it remove computed statements? < 1275686299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1275686304 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ? < 1275686305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1275686309 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep, agreed < 1275686309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I am pretty sure your thing doesn't have loops of any sort. < 1275686315 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, it is TC if there is a program that can be written and work in all 256 ways, I suppose. Otherwise it is not TC but there is a command to make it TC? < 1275686319 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: statements can run more than once < 1275686329 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each time it picks a random statement, regardless of whether it's run before or not < 1275686339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so from another point of view, it has loops everywhere < 1275686354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How about if an operation a = b OP c would cause a division by zero, we jump to a by somehow interpreting it as a line number. < 1275686362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Two-dimensional line numbers? (a,b) PRINT ...) < 1275686370 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't understand < 1275686372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a/b I gues < 1275686373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how would you make it divide by zero only when things are done? < 1275686373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*guess < 1275686378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well < 1275686379 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a jump somewhere randomly all the time < 1275686386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a = b / 0 < 1275686388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say a is 1/2 < 1275686391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it'd jump to 1/2 < 1275686394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that means < 1275686394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: only set the variable in the denominator to 0 when you detect that things are done < 1275686398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I could see how if you had some logical operator, like == or such < 1275686399 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't get the notion of "Jump" here < 1275686407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "execute 1/2 as next line, not random()" < 1275686411 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can compare numbers with a 0/non-0 result using - < 1275686414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :figure out twod line numbers yourself :P < 1275686416 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that would defeat the whole point of the language < 1275686422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe floor(1 / 2) < 1275686422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm true < 1275686428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*floor(1/2) < 1275686432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :executing random() is clearly enough for repetition of some sort < 1275686480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it can be TC under the condition of a rng that never repeats itself and in enough _finite_ time will cover all states several times < 1275686482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1275686517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/repeats/repeats in loops/ < 1275686521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that solves the issue alise is pointing at I think < 1275686521 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it wouldn't be an RNG otherwise < 1275686528 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're assuming a mathematically perfect RNG < 1275686538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although /dev/urandom would probably be good enough < 1275686539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: a mathematically perfect RNG would repeat itself, I think... < 1275686543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: or at least could < 1275686545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well then 1,2,3,1,2,3,... is not an issue? < 1275686547 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, but not forever < 1275686553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: or are we talking 0 to /infinity/ RNG? < 1275686555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, with probability 1 < 1275686562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I am not even sure makes sense < 1275686566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you select a completely random natural? < 1275686566 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275686570 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 0 to the number of statements in the program < 1275686574 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you run a random statement each time < 1275686577 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't 0 to infinity < 1275686577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such that you're distributed fairly over the naturals?! < 1275686578 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1275686584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you call the RNG an infinite number of times < 1275686587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or until the program terminates < 1275686591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get the next statement each tiem < 1275686592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*time < 1275686621 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps zero to infinity RNG is sensible if you have to use p-adic numbers? < 1275686651 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But even then, it isn't perfect, because ....11111 can just as well represent negative one < 1275686655 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is less than zero < 1275686678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what? < 1275686732 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And .....01010101010101 can represent negative one third < 1275686751 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Try multiplying by three and adding one and you will see that the answer is zero) < 1275686757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, why would we need negative numbers here at all < 1275686771 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case you subtract, I suppose? < 1275686785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, not needed for statement selection? < 1275686842 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose so. < 1275686870 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But dividing by zero is the form of flow control is something I have already invented: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Divzeros < 1275687157 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In PHIRC, I can easily test my IRC server just with the command "/C" by itself, without any parameters. "/C" by itself assumes "/C localhost 194" automatically, do you like this feature? Does any other IRC clients have that feature? < 1275687428 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already found out how to disable all channels other than "+" at the start, and to change the 005 message to match. There is no configuration setting for that so I had to modify the source-codes < 1275687489 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can SUMMON be enabled? < 1275687555 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it would be then too easy to SUMMON CTHULHU by accident. < 1275687631 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care about that < 1275687634 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can USERS be enabled? < 1275687676 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In ngIRCd it seems SUMMON is always disabled, although it does understand that command < 1275687681 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it cannot be enabled < 1275687880 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to make the HELP command work better? So that you can receive a help message, even before PASS/USER/NICK < 1275688066 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make it so that some nicknames can't be used unless the correct PASS and USER commands are given for that nickname < 1275688199 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1275688266 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I just should implement SIRCL format for channel log and then it should be working < 1275688271 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then I can set the router < 1275688864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abc < 1275689232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pik of the hq is absent. < 1275689343 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275689350 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, back. < 1275689373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as prophesied < 1275689566 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that most esolang interpreters are really VMS. < 1275689573 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/VMS/VMs/ < 1275689599 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since they tend to have nothing to do with the underlying system. < 1275689620 0 :relet!~thomas@c905DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1275689690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not HQ9+. the + character clearly should increment the underlying system's accumulator. < 1275689712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it has simply not been implemented correctly. < 1275689731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this might of course pose a problem in systems that have no accumulator. < 1275689741 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless the implementation is optimising and strips out unnecessary instructions. < 1275689761 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so the tree VM. < 1275689795 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurred to me that my addressing scheme needs different instructions for equality, < 1275689846 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since 00000.* always refers to the root node, and so on. < 1275689864 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a PCMP instruction would probably be helpful. < 1275689965 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: my Thutu implementation of HQ9+ uses its own emulated accumulator < 1275689978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's too abstracted to know if there's an underlying accumulator or not < 1275690008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's not HQ9+ < 1275690023 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is "the accumulator"? < 1275690031 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In x86, for instance. < 1275690035 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eax? < 1275690043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s fault if thutu is too removed from the underlying machine < 1275690105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has no idea whether x86 has an accumulator. < 1275690419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eax is the accumulator < 1275690464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eaxcellent! < 1275690563 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is here? < 1275690573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is Friday, is it not? < 1275690583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a most excellent Friday too, might I add, for no reason other than to give me a second line to write. < 1275690593 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. Read the logs and comment on the tree-based VM idea. < 1275690602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: there is no alise, it's just a talking weather balloon. or maybe a talking venus. < 1275690648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weather balloon. < 1275690654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No; I demand distilled information! < 1275690659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or at least log links.) < 1275690667 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today's log. < 1275690684 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The basic idea was to have a global tree in which code and data are stored. < 1275690698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh btw you forgot to delete Talk:Joke languages < 1275690714 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Category talk:Joke languages < 1275690732 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, thanks < 1275690749 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how I missed that one < 1275690757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why delete that category? < 1275690767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hereby register my disagreement. < 1275690771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also Category:Algorithmic information theory < 1275690784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Delete that one, yes. < 1275690786 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the talk page. < 1275690790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: um the talk page, which was spam < 1275690796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1275690806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Algorithmic information theory shouldn't be a category. < 1275690810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only John Tromp uses it. < 1275690829 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm it actually has an article < 1275690836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: deleted and semisalted < 1275690848 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you have failed to read the proposition. < 1275690856 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am disappointed. < 1275690888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm merely supporting it even more strongly. < 1275690898 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an alise < 1275690898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway suck my Dijkstra. (I will henceforth use this insult forevermore.) < 1275690901 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I thought you might like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lambda_calculus#Proposed_criticism_of_lambda_calculus < 1275690904 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I've come to hate LambdaMOO < 1275690914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1275690947 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not "hate", but I ask why people don't care about keeping the library organized, so newcomers could easily find things, and they said that newcomers could always just ask them < 1275690952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lambda_calculus#Proposed_criticism_of_lambda_calculus < 1275690961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His interests include astronomy, search engines, programming, computer graphics, ergonomics, electronic encyclopedias, and advanced wiki-formattting. He's the guy, in school, that corrected the answers in the back of the Physics textbook ("Don't ya hate people like that?"). < 1275690965 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really hope it's a joke. < 1275690968 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like more of a "Don't bother RTFM, just ask us" < 1275690969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, earlier: < 1275690970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia user Wikid77 is an American computer scientist, world traveller, and wiki-inventor. < 1275690977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking pretentious fuckwit kid ARH < 1275690978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ARGH < 1275690980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :burn with fire < 1275690991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it with SUPER SMRT kids and being... like that < 1275690993 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't read the TV Tropes Troper Tales pages for Mary Sue. < 1275690995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not like that am I? < 1275691001 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't a computer scientist actually appreciate lambda calculus? < 1275691008 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Genius Bruiser. < 1275691018 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's as bad as it sounds. < 1275691023 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm considered super-smart relative to the other computer students at my school, mostly < 1275691027 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, I think < 1275691064 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compared to my fellow computing students I am Donald Knuth. < 1275691069 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not all that good. < 1275691107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC user Elliott Hird is a British computer scientist, mathematician, philosopher and typographer. < 1275691113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is a renowned British < 1275691203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:05:56 (sorry for slow reply, had to clean my glasses due to small accident there) < 1275691206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We did not need that information. < 1275691219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:10:47 fungot uses SOCK and a few other ones for example < 1275691219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please don't tell us what you use. This has gone too far. < 1275691220 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: all because r2q2 said yow to you? fizzie said earlier that a befunge program that solves: 2x2 4x 1 0 deewiant anmaster: i wouldn't. < 1275691225 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, look Wikid77 has been in the West US, the East US, the Northeast US, the Southeast US *and* the other US. < 1275691229 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow! < 1275691239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "Other" region of the US. < 1275691263 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Non-continental US? < 1275691273 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, that doesn't technically describe Alaska, does it < 1275691274 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hawaii? < 1275691287 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Non-contiguous? < 1275691288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The User:Wikid77 is a long-term user on English Wikipedia (editing since 2001) and German Wikipedia, who also edits Wikimedia Commons in 20 languages. He is an American computer scientist, mathematician, information scientist, and world traveller. < 1275691295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Information scientist and world traveller. < 1275691332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Originally intended as the "sum of all knowledge" (vision), wiki efforts continued as the "sum of all censorship" in late 2008, as suggestions were deleted, text was trimmed or simplified, with images or maps cut to reduce data. Many people quit in disgust during 2006-2008, unable to handle the negative chaos. < 1275691337 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I joined in with the tree idea for the purpose of making a VM that could do functional programming on a low level. < 1275691339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASHDFGHHK < 1275691343 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He reminds me of Lumenos. < 1275691344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This user lives in Texas." < 1275691346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I can stop reading now < 1275691348 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although not as insane. < 1275691358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: real machines that do functional programming on a low level exist < 1275691360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google "Reduceron" < 1275691367 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Main_Page < 1275691373 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A tribute to insanity. < 1275691389 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you have to spoil my fun? < 1275691401 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm thinking of making a gaming computer < 1275691410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: wow, that wiki is like a cross-referenced masturbation video. < 1275691424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I can give you all the specs and it will cost super cheap and be most excellent. Also, I will give you humble service. < 1275691431 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You didn't have to deal with him for about a month. < 1275691434 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is that a good thing? < 1275691439 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea why I did it. < 1275691445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no. < 1275691455 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On Intel's website: "How many programs will you run at once?" The max option: 4+ < 1275691458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lumenism is a system for discovering and organizing information particularly on controversial topics. Here's how: < 1275691458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debates are made more fruitful and civil by techniques or technology that allow quick, back-and-forth dialogue, while enforcing time/attention restraints using time-enforced dialogue (ted) and wikibrawl methods. < 1275691458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clarifying terminology using neologisms. < 1275691458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Efficiently organizing and storing information to avoid repetition and enable newcomers to quickly and conveniently see if the answer to their question is in this information storage place. A wikiforum is particularly suitable to this goal, but a wikiforms' function can be simulated with with paper or voice, for people who don't own networked computers, for information that requires greater privacy, or for people who do not want to become a cripled philosoph < 1275691463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er (knowledge lover) like Lumenos. < 1275691463 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just kind of... fell into it. < 1275691465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Establishing the largest consensus groups possible. < 1275691467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Research how a lumeniki may be improved to maximize liberty by avoiding power being concentrated in the hands of administrators or the owners of the servers: < 1275691470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allowing modularity so that anyone can easily extract part of the wiki and move it to a different host, sponsor, governor, or legal agreement. < 1275691473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make LumenikiLu useful to readers by allowing them to customize how the content is filtered for them to see rather than administrators censoring what everyone sees. < 1275691476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Governance decision power delegated by the wiki software when consensus is not happening: A one-vote-per-person "democratic" system would require identification of people and have disadvantages in terms of privacy and convenience. An alternative would be a meritocratic system that would delegate power based on the amount of content contributed (which is recognized to be valuable). This would avoid cheating with sock puppets and some mistakes due to lack of e < 1275691481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xperience. The idea of software making the decisions (see technocracy) is to achieve real rule-by-law where laws are so perfected they can be carried out by computers/robots. You might think this would re < 1275691484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quire very wise and benevolent policy makers, well sort of, actually power checks are built into the (educational) system although any system may devolve into non-pareto or non-utilitarian, authoritarian hierarchies if not maintained by (the majority of) persons who are either benevolent and/or intelligent enough to maintain it. That is undoubtedly the Truthism. < 1275691484 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What kind of social networking do you want to do?" WTF? < 1275691489 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1275691491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, a huge flood. < 1275691493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But dammit, the world has to see. < 1275691495 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He turned up at Wikiindex after an incident I don't want to explain, and he wikilawyered for *weeks*. < 1275691495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It goes on: http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Lumenism < 1275691499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: See /msg. < 1275691520 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: incidentally, an automatically enforced 3RR automatically makes wikis democratic, if everyone can be bothered to use all their reverts < 1275691526 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is the only person who ever uses it. < 1275691543 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I have an account there, along with a couple of others from RationalWiki. < 1275691547 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: how /can/ you wikilawyer for weeks without everyone just ignoring you? < 1275691560 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We were a little crazy. < 1275691609 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wikiindex.org/WikiIndex_talk:Policies_and_Guidelines < 1275691668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That repeated "i" is irritating. < 1275691678 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is indeed. < 1275691722 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the site's administration is even worse. < 1275691752 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As best I can tell, most of the sane people went to another site, and only a few idiots remained. < 1275692251 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I found a bug in ngIRCd < 1275692258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Report it < 1275692303 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you create a + type predefined channel, it will set server operators as channel operators anyways, even though that shouldn't be allowed. (The MODE command doesn't work for modeless channels anyways, though) < 1275692315 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually there is no use for + type predefined channel < 1275692336 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But now I want to add in a function to make it so predefined channels are the ones which are automatically logged < 1275692341 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can fix that bug < 1275692519 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably nobody cares about that bug anyways, but I will fix it anyways. The only reason I need predefined channels is for two reasons: Topic messages and automatic logging (using SIRCL format). There should not be any operators, even server operators should not be allowed to change topics or anything else on + type channels. < 1275692546 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275692578 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, are you there? < 1275692720 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275692998 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is anyone going to discuss the tree computer? < 1275693075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Explain it. < 1275693146 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, like I said the only (or at least primary) data structure is a tree. < 1275693160 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if we agreed, but I think it was binary. < 1275693179 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Code and data are both stored on this. < 1275693219 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a low-level language operating on this level. < 1275693244 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is eagerly-evaluated, possibly by traversing the tree depth-first. < 1275693340 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275693341 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each node contains a 4-byte value. < 1275693382 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The addressing scheme I came up with was that the first 5 bits specified the depth, and the next 27 specified the path from the root node. < 1275693443 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet had the idea of making this faster by having a hash table of the pointers in physical memory corresponding to the address. < 1275693488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The addressing scheme I came up with was that the first 5 bits specified the depth, and the next 27 specified the path from the root node. < 1275693491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, finite tree. < 1275693494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DFA, Q.E.D. < 1275693496 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1275693507 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DFA? < 1275693510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google it. < 1275693526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My suggestion: 0 is /, 1 is a bit. < 1275693528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's your path. < 1275693531 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dimensional Fund Advisors? Democracy For America? < 1275693536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11101111 is 111/1111 < 1275693540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Sigh. < 1275693548 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1275693565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deterministic is the first word. < 1275693575 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deterministic Finite-state Automaton? < 1275693587 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1275693590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU WIN < 1275693618 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it so bad if it's not TC? < 1275693626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, I meant FSM. < 1275693631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It's boooooooring :P < 1275693639 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's honest. < 1275693665 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it doesn't pretend to be TC while written in C, like everything else is. < 1275693722 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1275693725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You confuse languages with implementations. < 1275693729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should die because of this. < 1275693732 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know. < 1275693737 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a terrible sin. < 1275693751 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC implementations are non-existent, so it's not that awful. < 1275693800 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that always bad? Some languages effectively are their implementations, like Perl < 1275693801 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Perl 5, anyway) < 1275693825 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so why should it be TC> < 1275693855 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC languages are two-a-penny. < 1275693868 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, Perl doesn't have formal specs? < 1275693889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: < 1275693895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Why is it so bad if it's not TC? < 1275693895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's honest. < 1275693895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Since it doesn't pretend to be TC while written in C, like everything else is. < 1275693907 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's inaccurate, I give you. < 1275693909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this "TC isn't valid because [some facet of the universe] isn't TC" thinking is a disease < 1275693912 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Sure it does. it's written in C < 1275693916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and must be stomped upon with great force at every opportunity < 1275693925 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the universe isn't TC. < 1275693936 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't run forever, however hard you try. < 1275693950 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the universe is finite < 1275693964 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a fantastically useful theoretical concept, but isn't real. < 1275693968 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275693988 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't mean languages, as described, aren't theoretically, if not physically, TC < 1275693995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Graham's number isn't real! < 1275693998 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I accept that. < 1275693999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ultrafinitism forever!! < 1275694018 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no proof that the Universe isn't TC < 1275694023 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i isn't real! < 1275694053 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with saying that TC isn't real, but is useful in mathematics? < 1275694068 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in fact, there is evidence suggesting that the Universe is super-TC < 1275694081 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, wait what? < 1275694100 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: There are those who believe that quantum mechanics is not modelable by a Turing machine < 1275694103 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quantum. < 1275694104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the universe to be finite, and I believe that -- < 1275694105 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the universe is super-TC, let's build a super-TC cpu! < 1275694108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did I know you'd bring up QM? < 1275694127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am pretty sure you could make a universe on a Turing machine that, to its inhabitants, behaved perfectly quantum. < 1275694128 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, can we stop the philosophy? < 1275694132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No. < 1275694141 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 philosophy < 1275694143 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: With a PRNG, then? < 1275694150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: We can't model quantum mechanics on a TM in this universe, perhaps. < 1275694158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: But that doesn't mean the universe itself is running on super-TC hardware. < 1275694159 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a nondeterministic TM? < 1275694163 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes it does < 1275694176 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either it can or cannot be modeled by a TM < 1275694178 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, we can't even build a TM in this universe, so < 1275694189 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a "nondeterministic TM" is not a TM at all < 1275694191 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We *can* build a TM. < 1275694198 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just not a universal one. < 1275694205 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh erm, >.> right < 1275694207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no < 1275694210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: consider: < 1275694231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TM can run {universe that appears to be quantum}, but from inside {universe that appears to be quantum}, we cannot emulate that universe, only {another universe that appears to be quantum}. < 1275694247 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But that would violate the principle of UTM equivalence < 1275694268 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275694272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see any issue with proposing that the simulator somehow makes its random numbers "inaccessible" to us. < 1275694280 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: nor do I < 1275694285 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why wouldn't "that universe" be emulable, except for memory constrains? < 1275694287 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*constraints? < 1275694290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emulable isn't a word < 1275694291 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TMs are not random, however < 1275694303 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1275694310 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emulable is a lovely word and should be real. < 1275694346 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have near-UTMs in this Universe (machines that would be UTMs if they had infinite space), that means they can emulate any TM. By definition, there cannot exist a TM that a UTM cannot emulate < 1275694352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lumenos is practically a superhero but for eir one crippling kryptonite weakness to a deadly form of ikilumen known as termMites. < 1275694352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Noise pollution: Marl is the gosh of noise pollution. His one most loyal and faithful servant on Earth, Marlean, is actually Lumenos step sister. The antiChrist appointed Marlean to distract and frustrate any attempt by Lumenos or Klearance to think. However, marlikilumen has differing effects on Lumenos and Klearance. < 1275694352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Klearance becomes sedated, hypnotized, and usually will fall asleep or stare at a lumenator, lucidly dreaming of something he thinks he needs to do without having access to the brain functions which could solve any real problem when these actually exist. < 1275694353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lumenos becomes distracted, agitated (more like freegan pissed off), and tends to flee from the deadly air vaprations. < 1275694356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Ikilumen_of_Lumenos'_mind what! < 1275694385 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to *argue* with him. < 1275694396 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's open-edit, feel free to annoy him. < 1275694408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooooovie you came! *BIG hug* I did it right that time, hugh? I know how you like those little stars. You so smart. Do you know how to spell "hugh"? First editor who is sticking around a little while maybe? I think there might be a special place for the Hoovester in the Lumeniki tip jar. Lumenos 17:12, September 6, 2009 (UTC) < 1275694415 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275694416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooooovie you came! *BIG hug* < 1275694423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Hooooovie you came! *BIG hug* < 1275694426 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if the Universe cannot be modeled by any TM (including, by definition, a UTM) inside it, it cannot be emulated by any TM at all. < 1275694437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you want me to stay, make me a sysop and bureaucrat." xD < 1275694442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes I think you no longer love me. I know that is just my low self esteem talking but, you know, it would be nice to hear you say it every now and then. Lumenos 08:37, November 13, 2009 (UTC) < 1275694444 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1275694446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this guy for real < 1275694452 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would appear. < 1275694460 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-205-116.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275694463 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so therefore its computational complexity class must be super-TC, since it can in fact model a UTM, as evidenced by the existence of UTMs within it < 1275694465 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, where's this? < 1275694469 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise he shows a dedication for parody that is in itself weird. < 1275694476 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTMs can model UTMs < 1275694483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(Prune. With a chainsaw)" --Phantom_Hoover < 1275694486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Lumeniki&diff=69874&oldid=68851 < 1275694492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://lumeniki.referata.com/ < 1275694506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wikiindex.org/Lumeniki Look at that, it's big again. < 1275694518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This guy is fucking insane < 1275694556 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's the You came bit? < 1275694581 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: exactly < 1275694581 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Lumeniki&oldid=68851 He seems to think that he invented MediaWiki's XML export feature. < 1275694605 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1275694608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: on Phantom_Hoover's talk page on lumeniki; I'm sure you can figure it out. < 1275694609 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, I should add one thing < 1275694614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems HackEgo is still broken. < 1275694621 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1275694624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so therefore its computational complexity class must be super-TC, since it can in fact model a UTM, as evidenced by the existence of UTMs within it < 1275694628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe the universe is infinite. < 1275694629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there. < 1275694632 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls < 1275694648 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1275694652 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A UTM can model a UTM, can't it? < 1275694678 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Size is the only possible reason why no UTM within the Universe can model the Universe if it is TC < 1275694688 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is it tthat to me, it's obvious both coppro and alise are wrong? < 1275694690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I also believe a UTM can probably model the universe. < 1275694697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Because you are wrong in a different way. < 1275694713 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you didn't have to deal with Lumenos' debate maps. < 1275694724 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you had a UTM within the Universe, and the Universe is just TC, then that UTM could model the Universe < 1275694735 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the obvious fact that it's physically impossible < 1275694760 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's actually a proof of the Universe's irreducibility < 1275694765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: This wiki is so confusing... < 1275694774 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you said "Within the universe", you mean physically? < 1275694776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that would be an astonishing result. < 1275694780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it would disprove the church-turing thesis. < 1275694785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: thus I believe it is not so. < 1275694789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish to point out that a deterministic TM can easily model a nondeterministic one, with just an exponential blowup in time < 1275694813 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in case someone here didn't know this already) < 1275694814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The only solid opinion I can come up with is that this Lumenos guy possibly likes RationalWiki, which makes me detest him (her?). < 1275694815 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the Wikiindex dispute, he eviscerated the discussion and scrambled everything in it. < 1275694831 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it would also disprove everything and prove everything, since it would be a contradiction < 1275694831 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hereto sapien"? < 1275694862 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is obvious that the Universe cannot be modeled from within itself; the question is whether the computational power is sufficient < 1275694869 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also, the usual quantum complexity class BQP fits snugly inside the deterministic complexity class PSPACE < 1275694901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually now I'm just raging at RationalWiki, which is nicer than reading this wiki < 1275694912 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1275694933 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(meaning that turning quantum -> deterministic is also just a question of blowing up space or time requirements) < 1275694940 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with RationalWiki? < 1275694955 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275695001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's mostly filled with foaming-at-the-mouth people who seem to like making fun of silly religious beliefs more than RATIONALLY EXAMINING THINGS. < 1275695015 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: also, the Church-Turing thesis is not something that can be taken for granted. That's the whole point of digital physics < 1275695016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anti-religion is perfectly acceptable but it is not rationality, and their articles also are almost completely devoid of reason; it approaches more of a comedy wiki. < 1275695032 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275695042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I dislike their writing style. It smacks of "Lol, I am smarter than you" no matter who reads it. < 1275695058 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm afraid I'm one of the administrators, so I'll just leave before an argument starts. < 1275695063 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*PLEASE* < 1275695070 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1275695079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Is it rational to leave whenever someone disagrees with your site? < 1275695081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that guy's touchy. < 1275695115 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: Is it rational to leave whenever someone disagrees with your site [RationalWiki]? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1275695172 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275695194 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it's more the fact that it's quarter to 12 and I don't like arguing with people. < 1275695208 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By all means create an account and criticise the site there < 1275695208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: You know, entering to say something after logreading is a technique I used to use and is widely regarded as extremely immature here. < 1275695211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talk or don't talk at all. < 1275695219 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry, then. < 1275695221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm criticising the site here. If you were mature you would ignore me instead of confronting me like that. < 1275695229 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, OK? < 1275695230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least confronting me in a more... rational way. < 1275695243 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm allowed not to want to have an argument, OK? < 1275695281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree with your argument, but I'll defend to death your right not to have it < 1275695285 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not "my site", either. < 1275695304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My boss" isn't MY boss, either. < 1275695307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's other people's boss too. < 1275695316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: If you don't want an argument, don't respond to me. < 1275695317 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a static place to announce a language? < 1275695324 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jabb: Not really. < 1275695330 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wiki is where it's normally done. < 1275695333 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you announce something ina static place? < 1275695336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now really, saying "Don't say that! Stop criticising that!" won't stop an argument, only provoke it. < 1275695337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jabb: wiki. < 1275695340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolangs.org/wiki < 1275695350 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's used that already. < 1275695387 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'm not telling you not to say it. I'm saying that I'm not interested in responding to your criticism. < 1275695396 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jabb: what do you mean by static? there is the esoforum which is only barely alive... < 1275695406 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an esoteric esoteric programming language? < 1275695412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: But you did anyway. < 1275695418 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say that. < 1275695429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally I think your response comes across as quite emotionally attached to this wiki, to the point of not wanting to rationally reply to criticism. < 1275695435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And don't say I'm starting an argument, you kindled the fire.) < 1275695441 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1275695449 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I linked you to Lumenos. < 1275695452 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh, used to announcing something on usenet or something < 1275695453 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"in some assembly language"? < 1275695464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: By leaving/rejoining a lot and saying "NO DON'T TALK ABOUT IT". < 1275695473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jabb: we used to have a mailing list < 1275695476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uncountable aeons ago < 1275695477 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I left/rejoined TWICE. < 1275695487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, I didn't say much int he first place... < 1275695574 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look, I have to do this thing called SLEEPING now, and I was tired as it was. I don't really want to have a nice day spoilt by an argument, and I tried to indicate this. < 1275695586 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jabb, what's the data type of the hand? < 1275695602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Stop whining and just go to sleep. < 1275695605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have to be emotional. < 1275695621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You would think -- okay, I refuse to make another jab at the name RationalWiki. How could I stoop so low? < 1275695634 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you always have to act oh so superior to all lesser beings? < 1275695642 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway. I'll sleep now. < 1275695643 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1275695649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not acting superior ... you're acting hurt. < 1275695655 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both < 1275695662 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are the two actings mutually exclusive? < 1275695665 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jabb, so In Hand's data type varies? < 1275695667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How am I acting superior? < 1275695672 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you usually are < 1275695680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was belittling Phantom_Hoover, yes... < 1275695691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't recall bembiggening myself. < 1275695697 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, a use for C unions! < 1275695710 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do it implicitly < 1275695713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: There are plenty. < 1275695716 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a politician does < 1275695719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: That's not very helpful. < 1275695726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What am I doing wrong?" "You're breaking it!!" < 1275695731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How?" "That's just what you do!" < 1275695738 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd elaborate but I'm running late and I might miss my bus if I don't leave in like 2 minutes < 1275695772 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "stop whining" and variants come across as insulting. < 1275695791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I never denied I was being insulting: only that I was acting superior. < 1275695797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that rather contradicts with coppro saying that I'm always like that. < 1275695800 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, yeah can be a number, list or null (None in python) < 1275695835 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jabb, should the interpreter be considered to be a reference interpreter? < 1275695836 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: any memory location is that way, list, number or none < 1275695846 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And which wins, spec or interp? < 1275695866 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spec seems a bit vague in places. I'll work on clarifying it based on interp < 1275695901 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'd go with interp < 1275695927 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're remarkably close, albeit the specs is a bit vague