00:07:36 <jabb> The TODO's have some stuff which is implemented wrong. Like some opcodes right now have strings instead of a list of numbers, so the program can't do anything with them.
00:08:04 <jabb> just the macro opcodes
00:16:07 <alise> "Tesla didn't need a computer"
00:16:12 <alise> "He just told the data what to do and it damn well did it"
00:16:15 <alise> "he also fought corporate crime and satanism with mark twain in a giant robot"
00:17:41 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: So Chuck Norris was their secret lovechild?).
00:19:55 <alise> Wow, that last thing is actually a comic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Fists_of_Science
00:19:58 <alise> (SORRY GRAPHICAL NOVEL.)
00:23:55 <Sgeo> It's legal to use a police scanner, right?
00:24:03 <Sgeo> Or an app that ultimately gets audio from one?
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00:25:17 <Sgeo> http://www.appbrain.com/app/com.scannerradio
00:27:12 <alise> Sgeo: Who knows; cares.
00:39:11 <alise> Oh! Slereah visited us!
00:39:22 <alise> 05:49:51 <AnMaster> and how does FTL imply time travel?
00:39:25 <alise> I didn't realise he was that retarded
00:43:56 <ais523> hmm, to get FTL you'd need to change enough of known physics that it might not imply time travel after all
00:44:54 <alise> 03:54:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Although "Turing-complete" here means something rather different to everywhere else.
00:45:06 <alise> ais523: You hid from me again
00:45:35 <alise> we need a nice formal definition of turing-completeness on the wiki so we can just point people at it to shut them up
00:45:44 <alise> not just "can emulate a turing machine", an actual formal definition
00:46:32 <Sgeo> A finite state machine can easy emulate _a_ turing machine
00:49:11 <alise> this is why we need it
00:49:12 <alise> ais523: you write it
00:49:40 <ais523> alise: I don't think even mathematicians have a nice formal definition that works in every corner-case
00:49:59 <ais523> or there wouldn't have been that row about the 2,3 thing
00:50:38 <alise> ais523: "There exists a function UTM_P: UTM -> P such that interp_P(UTM_P(x)) = UTM(x) for all x"
00:50:44 <alise> this leaves the infinite program thing vague, which is probably for the best.
00:54:38 <alise> ais523: but I feel that directly appealing to UTMs is unwise.
00:56:16 <ais523> and you have problems with halting and IO, too
00:58:14 <alise> treating IO formally is easy enough, you just need a potentially-infinite input stream
00:58:27 <alise> don't need to have it as part of the UTM definition
00:58:37 <alise> i don't see how halting is an issue
01:06:26 <alise> Wikipedia: A proof that a self-organising, democratic system can arise with very little to no outside control, decentralised, on the internet... and it'll be even more bureaucratic and self-congratulating than in real life.
01:06:28 <alise> A success, and a failure.
01:07:28 <Sgeo> Wikipedia doesn't face challenges that a real-world polical system might face
01:08:11 <Sgeo> And some people on Wikipedia are physically more powerful than others
01:08:17 <Sgeo> Wikiphysically
01:08:27 <alise> Like in real life.
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01:11:29 <uorygl> How is Wikipedia democratic?
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01:12:33 <alise> uorygl: Votes^WArticles for Deletion
01:12:48 <alise> Although admittedly sometimes the sysops just decide to take their own preferred course of action instead.
01:12:58 <alise> It's a discussion! Your thoughts do not really count.
01:25:56 <Sgeo> alise, lambdamoo?
01:30:35 <Sgeo> "Thank God we have @reapers to make sure that anyone not active enough get
01:30:35 <Sgeo> fragged. But overpopulation and massive programming projects are sucking this
01:30:40 <AnMaster> <alise> I didn't realise he was that retarded <-- I think you confuse "retarded" with "don't know a lot of physics"
01:30:56 <alise> But even /I/ know that and I'm incredibly physicstarded :P
01:31:32 <AnMaster> alise, well, I readily agree to being more of a physicstarded than you. But I'm not a retard in general. That was my point.
01:32:38 <alise> every animal is retarded
01:32:42 <AnMaster> alise, heck I doubt either of my parents would know this either. Both are social science more or less
01:32:44 <alise> but some animals are more retarded than others
01:33:44 <AnMaster> alise, I heard economists and CEOs were some of the most retarded ones in general
01:33:59 <AnMaster> with a few exceptions for the CEOs
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01:34:12 <alise> Economists aren't as bad as their reputation.
01:34:26 <alise> Actual economists are mostly sane.
01:34:38 <AnMaster> alise, what about the current financial crisis?
01:34:41 <alise> I'm talking the kind that actually work on the science/theory of economics.
01:34:49 <alise> Who everyone then ignores.
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01:37:51 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, Jobs doesn't seem like a stupid CEO. Wait. Ipad
01:38:48 <alise> AnMaster: Jobs is a clever man -- and probably quite nice -- he just has different values to most other people.
01:38:57 <alise> He doesn't care much about openness in technology, for instance.
01:39:16 <alise> The folklore.org stories paint him as a bit of an asshole, but really, we all knew that already.
01:39:24 <alise> A nice asshole. Go fig.
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01:55:39 <AnMaster> alise, wrt apple (took a bit to find it, knew I had seen it somewhere): http://media.fukung.net/images/24383/e6fb96d7a9dcc822029dd97dd79382d7.jpg (sfw)
01:57:09 <alise> I'd take an iPad if it was cheap :P
01:58:56 <AnMaster> alise, ah so the last paragraph doesn't apply to you then ;P
01:59:17 <alise> I bought an iPhone in 2007 and it was like £400
01:59:26 <alise> And it didn't have any apps then even, so yeah, that was pretty dumb
01:59:30 <alise> I jailbroke it on the first day though
01:59:37 <alise> Who knows, with the exchange rates now
01:59:45 <alise> I forget the exact price
01:59:52 <AnMaster> iirc those changed quite a lot since then
02:00:04 <alise> It was expensive, anyway; you could get a decent laptop for its price.
02:00:35 <AnMaster> a thinkpad almost one year ago was around 9000 SEK iirc
02:00:50 <AnMaster> or 10000, don't remember any more
02:00:59 <alise> I got my Toshiba Satellite for just under £500.
02:01:10 <alise> It's a capable, if low-specced laptop. I could have got much higher specs, but I preferred the long battery life.
02:01:52 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I bet it doesn't have a magnesium roll-cage ;P
02:05:02 <AnMaster> ais523, wait, you are up very late aren't you?
02:05:14 <alise> AnMaster: very late?
02:05:16 <alise> 2am is not so late.
02:05:36 <AnMaster> alise, true, 03:00 (use 24h dammit!) is later
02:05:49 <alise> OH THREE HUNDRED HOURS
02:06:08 <AnMaster> no, that one doesn't even make sense
02:06:19 <AnMaster> it is not 300 hours, nor 300 minutes
02:07:07 <alise> It's called military time and you were just supporting it.
02:12:49 -!- zzo38 has joined.
02:12:56 <zzo38> Now I have IRC server in my computer
02:14:18 <zzo38> You can see if it work!
02:15:37 <alise> The 6667 of portage ?!
02:15:45 <alise> * Connecting to zzo38computer.cjb.net (24.207.48.53) port 6667...
02:18:22 <zzo38> Sorry, I turned it off for a few seconds to edit the configuration. Try zzo38computer.cjb.net:194
02:18:42 <alise> Wow, using the actual IRC port? You are crazy
02:19:11 <alise> zzo38: Connect, then.
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02:20:28 <alise> * zzo38 (~zzo38@24.207.48.53) has joined +ADMIN
02:20:28 <alise> <zzo38> Sorry, I have to leave now
02:20:28 <alise> * zzo38 has quit (zzo38)
02:20:28 <Sgeo> Wait, 194 is the official irc port?
02:20:40 <alise> Sgeo: one of three of the iana-assigned ones
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02:33:47 <olsner> oh, the reply to my message scrolled past the scrollback and now I must consult the logs!
02:34:56 <olsner> aha, and phantom_hoover has left so I have no one to reply to the reply to
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02:59:29 <zzo38> I am back on now, and I will tell you a hint: If you are unable to read the log file, you can use the FLUSH command to flush the file so that it can be read.
02:59:43 <zzo38> (Enter the channel name as the parameter to FLUSH command)
03:00:58 <zzo38> As far as I know there is no standard format for IRC log, I created SIRCL format for IRC log. I propose SIRCL has a standard for IRC log format. What is your opinion?
03:03:40 <alise> Standard IRC log format is the raw IRC messages.
03:04:07 * Sgeo_ decides he'd trust alise with his life, unless anger and/or yelling could threaten his life
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03:04:11 -!- _lament has changed nick to lament.
03:04:41 <alise> Failing that, some obvious /(\d\d):(\d\d)(:(\d\d))?\s+<([^>]+)>\s(.*)/ produces (h,m,(s?),name,msg)
03:04:45 <alise> Sgeo_: Good to... know...
03:04:55 <Sgeo_> Well, maybe not literally my life
03:05:04 <Sgeo_> Maybe computer-related decisions
03:05:13 <Sgeo_> Was trying to be funny partially
03:05:17 <alise> 09:17:22 <oerjan> i _think_ minimal overlap may be a hexagonal pattern, isn't that the equivalent to kepler's theorem in two dimensions
03:05:21 <alise> honeycomb conjecture iirc
03:05:26 <alise> proven as part of kepler's conjecture's proof
03:05:41 <alise> The honeycomb conjecture states that a regular hexagonal grid or honeycomb represents the best way to divide a surface into regions of equal area with the least total perimeter. Mathematician Thomas C. Hales proved the conjecture in 1999 with revisions in 2001.
03:06:06 <zzo38> See http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irc_log/ADMIN/1275700304 you can see the SIRCL format in real action! (I know this channel does not use it)
03:06:10 <Sgeo_> kepler's conjecture?
03:06:19 <alise> The Kepler conjecture, named after Johannes Kepler, is a mathematical conjecture about sphere packing in three-dimensional Euclidean space. It says that no arrangement of equally sized spheres filling space has a greater average density than that of the cubic close packing (face-centered cubic) and hexagonal close packing arrangements. The density of these arrangements is slightly greater than 74%.
03:06:22 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler_conjecture
03:06:43 <alise> proved by Thomas Hales using exhaustive computer calculations ikn part
03:06:55 <alise> (so some people consider it "not completely rigorous" but they're full of baloney)
03:07:01 <zzo38> I called it SIRCL format, short for "Simple IRC Log"
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03:07:48 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler_conjecture#Hales.27_proof
03:08:08 <Sgeo_> I seem to not be up to date in mathematical knowledge
03:08:18 <Sgeo_> I think Flatterland said it was yet to be proven
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03:08:23 <alise> I like how his proof was 250 pages of notes and 3 gigabytes of programs, data and results.
03:08:25 <zzo38> SIRCL format does not have to be used for only one channel, although it is common to log each channel separately anyways
03:08:29 <alise> Fuck the system :P
03:08:52 <alise> Sgeo_: well in 1998 he announced it complete, in 2003 the ann. math. panel announced it was 99% certain of the result
03:09:01 <alise> and Hales (2005) in ann. math. was a 100-page summary
03:09:09 <alise> so it was quite new and not widely accepted in 2001
03:09:51 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:How_to_Escape_from_a_Black_Hole.svg
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03:11:44 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pyramid_of_35_spheres_animation.gif I have again fallin in love with ray-traced images
03:11:55 <Sgeo_> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pyramid_of_35_spheres_animation_original.gif
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03:14:16 <Sgeo_> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Created_with_Persistence_of_Vision HAWT
03:19:03 <Sgeo_> Is Blender generally well-regarded?
03:19:21 <alise> Well-regarded as in "I HOPE YOU ENJOY HORRIBLE INTERFACES HAHAHAHAHAHA"
03:19:25 <alise> Apart from that, yes
03:19:27 <alise> 13:51:23 <ais523> hmm, obviously he'll have ignored me based on that inference and won't hear this
03:19:27 <alise> 13:51:26 <ais523> even though it's wrong
03:20:39 <Sgeo_> alise, what other free 3d authoring tools are available?
03:20:45 <Sgeo_> Besides POV-Ray, ofc
03:24:22 <alise> Wings 3D can be used to model and texture low to mid-range polygon models. Wings does not support animations and has only basic OpenGL rendering facilities, although it can export to external rendering software such as POV-Ray and YafRay. Still, Wings is often used in combination with other software, whereby models made in Wings are exported to applications more specialized in rendering and animation such as Blender.
03:24:54 <alise> 15:23:06 <AnMaster> <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: They're not *scary*, they're just more complex than your ordinary integral. <-- s/more/even more/
03:24:56 <Sgeo_> So models don't look polished in Wings3D. How is that inherently a bad thing?
03:24:57 <alise> integrals are not complex.
03:25:04 <alise> Sgeo_: did I say that?
03:25:10 <Sgeo_> Although no animation support is not a good thing
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03:27:20 <zzo38> If you would like to see any additional logged/predefined channels in my IRC, you can propose them in the +ADMIN channel.
03:30:30 <alise> 16:10:03 * oerjan kept nagging about NB. PLEASE intercal DO NOT being simpler
03:30:32 <alise> eventually i listened
03:31:14 <zzo38> What about INTERCAL exactly?
03:31:23 <zzo38> You don't want simpler?
03:31:33 <zzo38> Or do you mean something else, too
03:32:01 <zzo38> If it is CLC-INTERCAL you can modify the syntax however you want (even at runtime)
03:33:21 <alise> 16:35:09 <maedhros777> Seems kind of interesting to me that the same wiki having languages like LOLCODE also has such intellectual articles on Turing-completeness :)
03:33:21 <alise> 16:36:12 <maedhros777> "Can haz stdio"? Classic. :)
03:33:21 <alise> 16:36:41 <oerjan> maedhros777: you may note that boolfuck shows you don't even need more than two values 0 and 1 for TC, which means increment and decrement are the same operation
03:33:21 <alise> 16:37:04 <oerjan> also some people here like to hate LOLCODE. just saying. ;D
03:33:22 <alise> 16:37:23 <maedhros777> oerjan: It's the greatest language ever :)
03:33:24 <alise> 16:37:29 <maedhros777> Besides BF, of course.
03:33:26 <alise> 16:37:46 <maedhros777> I should make a real-time multiplayer FPS in BF. =D
03:33:28 <alise> You are my mortal enemy now maedhros777
03:33:39 <alise> zzo38: No, I wrote a way to do an INTERCAL/J polyglot.
03:34:05 <lament> hey, does everyone remember the description of THQ9+
03:34:07 <zzo38> alise: OK maybe you should post them at wiki, or something like that
03:34:08 <lament> or something like that
03:34:17 <lament> where T implemented "turing-completess"
03:34:29 <lament> probably cpressey came up with it
03:34:39 <lament> i can't find it anywhere
03:34:41 <alise> X Makes the programming language Turing-complete. How this is supposed to be achieved is not clearly specified. (The Perl implementation generates a random number, adds it to each character in the program, and interprets the resulting program code as Perl code.)
03:34:43 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/CHIQRSX9_Plus
03:34:54 <alise> probably not oerjan's finest moment in language design
03:35:13 <lament> i thought i remembered one that just added a single instruction
03:35:15 <alise> especially as CHIQRSX9+ is actually an infinite family of languages
03:35:22 <alise> all of which are turing complete, but
03:35:33 <alise> the implementation selects from a finite (and thus very limited) subset of these at runtime
03:35:36 <alise> and interprets the program in it
03:35:40 <alise> which is clearly lunacy
03:35:57 <jabb> "The Perl implementation generates a random number, adds it to each character in the program, and interprets the resulting program code as Perl code." LOL
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03:38:08 <alise> 06:14:10 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, a bit hard here too, I have no children. It would be rather strange if I did, I'm 20 after all...
03:38:12 <alise> yeah because there are no teen fathers
03:40:03 <lament> apparently oerjan's suggestion was CHIQRS9+
03:40:17 <lament> and then the author of HQ9+ suggested to add X
03:44:59 <alise> 08:59:41 <AnMaster> oh a lunatic
03:45:04 <alise> How DARE you call Emperor Norton that.
03:45:18 <alise> lament: Please execute AnMaster for treason.
03:46:19 <lament> alise, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Multi_Color_Go.JPG
03:46:44 <alise> lament: it's a sheep getting raped by a flower?
03:47:37 <alise> 10:02:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, didn't* ehird use windows95 for a bit?
03:47:38 <alise> 10:02:39 <AnMaster> I mean, like during last year
03:48:00 <alise> 10:04:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh whatever you're just trolling
03:48:00 <alise> reaaaaaaaally, it took you that many pages of pointless anmaster-vim-trolling to figure that out?
03:49:03 <alise> wow, he even continued after the topic changes
03:49:14 <alise> AnMaster really is a bone-headed die-hard zealot :)))
03:49:59 <alise> 10:30:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah, don't remember you doing much with fungoids?
03:49:59 <alise> 10:31:01 <oklopol> he's done more than you
03:52:23 <alise> 10:50:29 <oklopol> then again who the fuck gives a shit about water so i guess it's okay that the random number 100 is associated with it
03:52:24 <alise> 10:50:34 <oklopol> or wait
03:52:24 <alise> 10:50:39 <oklopol> actually i love water
03:52:24 <alise> he's breaking down
03:54:19 <alise> 11:16:33 <cheater99> what's less crap (for IM, not irc)
03:54:19 <alise> 11:16:42 <cheater99> pidgin or telepathy?
03:54:33 <alise> empathy is like prealpha software
04:00:24 <alise> 12:12:48 <oerjan> oklopol: hard to say. i have a theory that alise is the next zzo38.
04:07:05 <alise> 14:34:11 <fungot> pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. [...]
04:07:06 <fungot> alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia
04:07:13 <alise> <fungot> alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia
04:07:14 <fungot> alise: could you please check whether the installation files for your browser? :d
04:08:04 <alise> 14:37:38 <fungot> Deewiant: ever yours, c. darwin. 17 spring gardens, london, fnord, morphology, adaptive characters, 426. [...]
04:08:05 <fungot> alise: " e" is already taken), too
04:08:06 <alise> I like that address
04:08:45 <alise> 14:40:11 <fungot> AnMaster: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions
04:08:45 <alise> 14:40:22 <AnMaster> ais523, hey, was that all versions ^
04:08:45 <alise> 14:40:30 <Deewiant> yes all versions all versions
04:08:48 <alise> fungot is especially brilliant lately
04:09:23 <alise> 14:41:43 <fungot> AnMaster: to any airbus plane. 3 passengers sadly died the most awesome thing ever.
04:11:03 <alise> 14:49:34 <fungot> AnMaster: un- unless he starts to en- to enjoy watching the tae bo that i had
04:11:03 <alise> 14:49:45 <Deewiant> fungot: Tae bo?
04:11:03 <alise> 14:49:45 <fungot> Deewiant: no she no they're not having ah they're not you got to look at why they try to get together there you know
04:11:03 <alise> 14:50:01 <Deewiant> Awfully schizophrenic :-P
04:11:15 <alise> 14:52:26 <fungot> AnMaster: you might as well be in the court i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
04:11:20 <alise> I'm a law student so I am loving my bread machine
04:12:21 <alise> 20:18:09 <coppro> what's the mathematica to express a function in terms of a single variable?
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04:51:12 <Gregor> Observation: A transparent casing for a melodica provides all the incentive necessary to properly use the spit valve.
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06:00:50 <zzo38> Does it work for you?
06:01:47 <zzo38> I would also like to know which IRC servers and/or IRC clients you like?
06:03:01 <zzo38> I look at the bug report list for ngIRCd some are in German, however.
06:03:06 <zzo38> And some are English
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06:13:37 <zzo38> I think there was a feature request for channel logging. Well, I have implemented channel logging in ngIRCd. (I simply added a code to the "IRC_WriteStrChannelPrefix" function, and it was not difficult to do)
06:13:52 <zzo38> ngIRCd is very good!
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06:14:57 <Gregor> augur: http://codu.org/tmp/BalMusetteNocturne-wipp1.ogg Me playing two instruments at once
06:15:56 <Gregor> (With apologies for the poor audio quality)
06:16:43 <augur> i imagine playing was tricky
06:17:10 <zzo38> Which two instruments? (I suppose some might be harder than others)
06:17:30 <augur> christ maryland is a police state
06:17:30 <augur> 6 cops had people pulled over in the same one mile stretch of road, with a 7th cop in the shadows waiting to pounce
06:17:33 <zzo38> I can hear the music, and it does seem to work OK
06:17:34 <Gregor> D'aww, do I have to tell you, you should guess :P
06:17:50 <zzo38> But it is difficult for me to figure out the instruments
06:18:12 <Gregor> Here's a hint: The instrument that sounds like a piano is a piano.
06:18:20 <zzo38> Now, can you play *three* instruments at once?
06:18:28 <Gregor> Here's a useless hint: The instrument that sounds like it could be a harmonica or an accordion is neither.
06:18:45 <zzo38> Yes, that's the hard part
06:18:50 <Gregor> zzo38: I suppose my left foot is free ..
06:18:55 <augur> is it ... an ARMONICA?
06:19:23 <zzo38> Do you play the other instrument by feet?
06:19:31 <Gregor> zzo38: Naw, one hand each.
06:19:50 <zzo38> So if you play piano you cannot touch all of the notes at once
06:19:57 <zzo38> If you don't have three hands
06:20:18 <Gregor> zzo38: You can't touch every note on the piano at once unless you have twenty hands or so :P
06:20:28 <Gregor> lament: You probably don't appreciate accordions either. Heathen.
06:20:38 <lament> Gregor: this is the worst thing i have ever heard
06:21:00 <zzo38> I think it is working OK
06:21:20 <zzo38> Although perhaps it could be played much better if it were played properly
06:21:41 <Gregor> Neither instrument is being played "improperly", but I am a noob at the melodica.
06:21:47 <lament> Gregor: i even appreciate melodicas
06:22:02 <lament> but they usually don't sound like farting
06:22:07 <lament> they're not really meant for chords
06:22:15 <Gregor> wtf. They're meant PRECISELY for chords.
06:22:58 <lament> the whole point of a melodica is the expressivity
06:23:11 <lament> they're for playing a melody line, hence the name
06:23:29 <lament> with a chord, you want some control over the relative volumes of the different notes
06:23:40 <Gregor> lament: You are so ridiculous :P
06:23:44 <lament> you can't do that so all the expressivity is lost
06:23:47 <zzo38> Next time do it in Bohlen-Pierce (you will need special instruments), some people will think it is more worse, but to some people it is more better
06:25:31 <zzo38> With a chord, if you are using MIDI or whatever, you can even make it to use a different instruments for Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass, and you can do the same if you have a orchestra to do it for you, or a group of singers to sing it
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06:31:26 <zzo38> I have heard of a expensive piano that can be both acoustic piano and electric piano at once, so it can be used with no power, the strings can resonate from the other strings, and use all electronic functions when it is switched on
06:31:58 <Gregor> Yeah, they make those. Basically it can retract the strings and detect the hammers directly like a hammer-action digital piano.
06:32:25 <Gregor> Crazy-expensive, and not actually that great of an idea since it can't possibly sound the same in acoustic and digital mode.
06:32:31 <zzo38> Yes, like that, that is what I have heard of. It is expensive
06:33:23 <Gregor> And really, digital pianos have gotten pretty damn realistic recently. The top-of-the-line models simulate a piano rather than using soundbanks, so they're extremely close to an acoustic.
06:34:34 <zzo38> And yes I know it can't sound the same in both ways, that is a purpose of it, you can have both modes for different kinds of musics! But perhaps they can add a third mode, which is hybrid mode, where the strings are controlled digitally, and if a string is hit by a key, it will detect and record that event.
06:35:15 <zzo38> Hybrid mode would probably be even more expensive a lot more
06:35:55 <Gregor> Not sure whether they have that.
06:36:47 <zzo38> I know that just on a normal acoustic piano, it can make a bit different sound when touching the strings by hand, is there any kind of music that requires one person to play the keys and the other person plays the strings directly?
06:37:13 <zzo38> Or if you place additional object on top of the strings it can vibrate that object as well
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06:38:23 <zzo38> How do you write "wood" in Italian? If the part of the music is you have to knock the wood on the piano, do you have to write "wood" in Italian?
06:38:55 <Gregor> You don't "have" to do anything.
06:39:17 <Gregor> You wouldn't want to write "knock on wood" in English though, could be misconstrued :P
06:40:03 <Gregor> BTW, legno means wood, and it's used to indicate you should strike the string with the wood of the bow on bowed instruments.
06:40:54 <zzo38> What does it mean though, if it is written on a piano music? It can mean that for bowed instruments, but if it is piano, surely you cannot do that
06:41:37 <Gregor> I don't know of any meaning for piano music.
06:41:43 <Gregor> I'll ask my composer friend next time he's online.
06:43:03 <zzo38> Can you write Bohlen-Pierce musics?
06:44:27 <Gregor> Am I capable of making software such that I could cause notes to be played in a Bohlen-Pierce scale? Yes.
06:44:41 <Gregor> Am I capable of writing music in it that doesn't suck? Maybe, maybe not.
06:44:57 <zzo38> Did you ever try? And then you can figure out
06:46:01 <zzo38> Have you written music using *any* scale other than 12-TET?
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06:47:19 <augur> http://wonkette.com/415809/arizona-school-demands-black-latino-students-faces-on-mural-be-changed-to-white
06:48:08 <zzo38> What is the purpose of changing that? Just leave it until you happen to make a new mural with white faces?
06:51:17 <augur> zzo38: but the NIGGERs and SPICKs!
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06:52:32 <zzo38> I have written program to play Bohlen-Pierce scale as well, in QBASIC, and in MegaZeux. (The only version of MegaZeux which supports it is P9, which I am the only person that uses it, I am sure because I wrote it and haven't released it yet!) (Version P9 supports playing any frequencies of notes, other versions can use only standard notes)
06:54:38 <augur> oh god, Mrs Robinson makes me feel wonderful ::hugs everyone:: :D
06:54:49 <zzo38> (Still, standard notes are the only ones which can be entered directly; to play Bohlen-Pierce you need to program in the frequencies yourself)
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07:07:45 <Ilari_antrcomp> Sightly esoteric way to represent normal note frequencies: f = 440 * 2
07:07:54 <Ilari_antrcomp> Sightly esoteric way to represent normal note frequencies: f = 440 * 2^(x/12).
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07:37:25 <coppro> wonderful. It has just occurred to me that I am probably one of the 10, maybe 5 people in the world most familiar with a new C++ feature.
07:38:43 <coppro> also, what happened to everyone's favorite Internet girl*?
07:39:16 <coppro> *Internet girl is an established gender, generally recognized as sharing relatively few elements with female
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07:53:52 <Sgeo_> I hate Flash-reliant websites
07:54:01 <Gregor> He could se his impending interwebs disconnection.
07:54:37 <Ilari> Yeah, ran onto website that had electric version of some magazine. Used Flash, not PDFs.
07:56:38 <Ilari> Also, One shop had its catalogs only "available" as Flash on Web (why the hell they couldn't put PDFs)?
07:57:41 <Ilari> Of course, standard HTML would be even better...
07:58:20 <Ilari> With no javashit of course...
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08:05:43 <Sgeo_> Time for me to go to sleep
08:19:51 <Ilari> T-shirt with text "5 > 2". Anyone gets the reference? :-)
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09:29:03 <oklopol> "<alise> i'm listening" <<< predicting the future only works if you don't tell the people involved
09:29:13 <oklopol> oh wait i guess telling the conclusion is as bad as telling why
09:36:51 <oklopol> actually i was just thinking about time travel in cayley graphs
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09:59:57 <oklopol> err well see i first take an element g of infinite order that commutes with all the others and then i create rows H, gH, g^2H, ... containing all products with g with others, i consider one of these rows a point in time, time travel is when an element is repeated in a later row
10:00:09 <oklopol> i'm trying to find a way to do a thing, but cayley graphs are so fucking general
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10:27:22 <oklopol> one of my piano keys is broken :((
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10:28:00 <oklopol> because a tile fell off the ceiling :\
10:28:37 <oerjan> so there is a war between your ceiling and your piano, got it.
10:29:00 <oerjan> you should check your ceiling for strange vibration damage.
10:29:19 <Phantom_Hoover> "Well, I like the ceiling, but I like the piano. but which is better?"
10:29:47 <oklopol> it's the piano that should be jealous of the tiles and not the other way around, i've been doing tilings and not played the piano at all for the past month
10:29:53 <Gregor> oklopol: How vital of a key?
10:30:38 <oerjan> Gregor: HackEgo is seriously broken, unless you've just fixed it.
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10:30:47 <Gregor> oerjan: It reset because I fixed it.
10:30:49 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.27406 \ wunderbar_emporium
10:30:51 <oklopol> i mostly play atonal stuff
10:31:13 <oklopol> even if i didn't, i don't know what keys are more vital than others
10:31:14 <HackEgo> 102|<Madelon> I want to read about Paris in the period 1900-1914 <Madelon> not about the sexual preferences of a bunch of writers >.>
10:31:28 <HackEgo> 33|IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler!
10:31:52 <oerjan> and where german is completely mangled
10:31:57 <oklopol> i guess i use the white keys more
10:32:15 <oerjan> maybe that's why the nazis won, the english couldn't decipher german codes
10:32:36 <oklopol> not because it's easier or anything, i just can't stand keys of different color than my own
10:33:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps Turing gave up because of everyone saying "what the hell is the point of TCness?"
10:33:27 <oerjan> KingOfKarlsruhe: isn't it wonnen? i guess you're joking.
10:33:50 <oerjan> oh the ge- is on all forms?
10:34:00 <Gregor> oerjan: The office next to mine had "THE BRO-OFFICE" written on the whiteboard. So I modified it into "THE BROΦFFICE". Thinking of the diaresis mark as an umlaut made me consider finding the closest German analogue for that phrase and replacing it, but then I got lazy :P
10:34:06 <oerjan> whatever, my german is rusty
10:34:56 <oerjan> Gregor: what does BRO- mean
10:35:15 <Gregor> Presumably "of brothers"? Except in the "bro" sense of "brothers"
10:35:23 <Gregor> And with two extremely white people in it :P
10:36:00 <Gregor> Also if it starts with "DIE" then I have to be careful that I don't write it in that order in case I'm interrupted right after I write "DIE" on somebody's whiteboard :P
10:36:48 <oerjan> Gregor: i sometimes get startled by my watch on late tuesday/early wednesday
10:37:27 <oerjan> it has 3-letter english day names, except when changing in the night it briefly passes through the german alternatives
10:38:29 <oerjan> i presume there's a way to set it to use the german ones
10:38:36 <Gregor> It's the middle of the night and suddenly your watch is making threatening remarks.
10:40:57 <oklopol> old things always are, otherwise what would be the point of future
10:41:26 <Gregor> I have no further comments on that "no". Just no.
10:41:27 <oerjan> LINGUAE SENILES NOT SUNT HIDEOSAE!
10:41:48 <oklopol> Gregor: okay, could you elaborate
10:41:50 * oerjan has no idea whether two of those words are correct
10:43:14 * oerjan almost, but not quite, manages to remember what office is in german
10:43:16 <oklopol> the idea is, if you're in the past then you make ugly things, if you're in the present, you make normal looking things, and if you're in the future you make awesome shiny things
10:43:31 <oklopol> so that people in the present (us) would have the perfect spot
10:43:43 <oklopol> something to look for, but still a past we can laugh at
10:44:43 <oerjan> oklopol: actually people in the present make strange dysfunctional things. at least that was my conclusion when visiting an art museum with my father the day before yesterday
10:45:33 <oerjan> (it was "crafty" arts too, or whatever it's called, so the old things were actually useable items)
10:47:02 <oerjan> but in the modern section there was a lot of ... weird stuff
10:47:26 <oerjan> might as well have been
10:48:08 <oklopol> my gf is leaving for a month to go museum surfing in sweden
10:48:43 <oklopol> which is perfect because now i can just do math 24/7 and go insane
10:49:15 <oerjan> don't go all gΓΆdel on us, here
10:50:17 <oerjan> (you know he starved to death after his wife died because he thought everyone else was trying to poison him)
10:50:49 <oklopol> i eat hamburgers off the street, i don't think i'll have that problem
10:50:55 <oklopol> well okay i don't but i might
10:52:06 <oerjan> oh hm she didn't die she was in hospital
10:52:30 <oklopol> well i just remember gφdel+poison
10:52:48 <oklopol> i once read this book or two about mathematicians when i was a kid but i can't remember history
10:55:43 <oerjan> <alise> ais523: "There exists a function UTM_P: UTM -> P such that interp_P(UTM_P(x)) = UTM(x) for all x"
10:56:10 <oerjan> the function needs to be computable, otherwise you get almost everything
10:56:25 <oerjan> also you may need a postprocessing function as well
11:01:12 <oerjan> <olsner> aha, and phantom_hoover has left so I have no one to reply to the reply to <-- doomed never to meet again!
11:02:40 <oerjan> <alise> The honeycomb conjecture states that a regular hexagonal grid or honeycomb represents the best way to divide a surface into regions of equal area with the least total perimeter. Mathematician Thomas C. Hales proved the conjecture in 1999 with revisions in 2001.
11:03:04 * oerjan thought it was an old easy variation of kepler's problem...
11:03:42 <oerjan> except i guess that is a bit stronger than if you already have decided on spheres, that may still be easy
11:06:24 <oerjan> <alise> (so some people consider it "not completely rigorous" but they're full of baloney)
11:07:03 <oerjan> on the plus side i recall he started a project to get the proof computer verified
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11:12:11 <oerjan> <alise> probably not oerjan's finest moment in language design <-- actually if you count the fact i actually got around to implementing it...
11:15:43 <oerjan> 19:40:03 <lament> apparently oerjan's suggestion was CHIQRS9+
11:15:43 <oerjan> 19:40:17 <lament> and then the author of HQ9+ suggested to add X
11:16:05 <oerjan> i don't quite recall, however i'll point out that the choice of implementation for X was mine alone
11:19:47 <oerjan> 20:00:24 <alise> 12:12:48 <oerjan> oklopol: hard to say. i have a theory that alise is the next zzo38.
11:19:51 <oerjan> 20:00:24 <alise> i'm listening
11:21:29 <oerjan> you clearly consider zzo38 awesome, _and_ you are constantly considering reimplementing your own version of stuff. Q.E.D.
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11:25:00 <oerjan> 22:17:30 <augur> christ maryland is a police state
11:25:00 <oerjan> 22:17:30 <augur> 6 cops had people pulled over in the same one mile stretch of road, with a 7th cop in the shadows waiting to pounce
11:25:57 <oerjan> actually that sounds like it might be a good idea to do occasionally, i'm sure there are car owners driving above the speed limit who count on not being pulled over because someone in front of them is doing the same thing and would be taken first...
11:26:21 <oerjan> assuming you don't consider enforcing speed limits to be a police state in itself
11:26:38 <Gregor> A police state is a state with police in it.
11:26:43 <Gregor> The only true freedom is anarchy.
11:27:32 <oerjan> Gregor: it is not particularly wise to define police state in such a way that almost all people would prefer to live in one
11:27:41 <oerjan> (yeah i noticed the :P)
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11:28:27 <oklopol> people aren't free in anarchy either, they also have to have no clue what's going on, like maybe strapped to a bad with constant lcd injections
11:29:32 <oerjan> so to counter that, a perfect society would be one where you could know everything that was going on and still be happy
11:30:07 <oklopol> but i'm the only one in the world who thinks smart people can be happy
11:30:38 <oklopol> clearly i can't be the only one who's... or actually nm
11:30:50 <Gregor> The perfect society is one in which the media constantly placates the people into believing they're in a perfect society.
11:31:09 <oerjan> yeah countless philosophers have thought the opposite <thin-air-estimate>
11:44:20 <Phantom_Hoover> They have a habit of bringing in a wide variety of mice.
11:44:39 <oklopol> I THINK YOU MAY HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD ME
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11:48:05 <oklopol> uorygl: onko Phantom_Hoover sinunkin mielestδsi hφlmφ
11:49:24 <oklopol> we have our own secret language
11:50:18 <Phantom_Hoover> And it's unlikely that Finnish would be mistakeable for something else.
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11:50:39 <oklopol> well i do agree but i'm not sure my opinion counts
11:51:51 <oklopol> i have nothing to say but i'm gonna say it anyway
11:52:26 <oklopol> i thought streaming would make life easier than torrenting but i'm seriously considering going back
11:53:38 <oklopol> or buying a megavideo account, there's a million streaming services and they're the only one you can actually count on
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11:54:31 <oklopol> maybe i'll insult oerjan now
11:54:54 <oklopol> uorygl: eix ollu aika lol ku oerjan lδhti hei
11:55:16 <oklopol> i need to learn more languages
11:55:47 <oklopol> also that didn't really insult oerjan, actually i have no idea what it meant
11:56:02 <oklopol> "hey wasn't it pretty lol when oerjan left"
11:56:31 <oklopol> i should not let things out unfiltered
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12:28:00 <Phantom_Hoover> A VM that operates on a tree as the fundamental data structure.
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12:32:08 <oklopol> i've only played like 250 games of minesweeper on this computer
12:32:23 <oklopol> and there was actually a slight inference i needed to make during the last game :O
12:33:01 <jabb> Phantom_Hoover: link?
12:33:03 <oklopol> by which i mean this isn't a puzzle game
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12:34:23 <jabb> Phantom_Hoover: link?
13:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, you weren't the guy who'd been up for about 3 days, were you?
13:22:52 <jabb> It's 5:22am here
13:25:01 <oklopol> where i live time doesn't exit
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13:38:18 <oklopol> hi Gregor finally you came
13:39:47 <oklopol> no the lighter ones that can fly
13:40:31 <oklopol> not exactly very surprising
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14:44:02 * Phantom_Hoover is desperately trying to find a situation in which he can call JavaScript communist.
14:54:21 <olsner> looks like you've found it
14:55:46 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: btw, you wondered what my compiler compiled? it compiles a small language I made (not a very esoteric one though, mostly kind of ordinary)
14:57:18 <olsner> nah, I think it is pretty justly rated
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15:02:02 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: mostly C:ish, but with modules and some differences in the syntax for types
15:02:22 <alise> olsner: Oh, is this that M++ thing?
15:02:41 <olsner> well, based on the same ideas, but not really
15:03:13 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, what's the language like?00:28:58 <Ilari> Hint: XHTML...
15:03:14 <olsner> this is like the fourth time I've started making something like that, but only this time it ended up as a compiler that can actually do anything
15:03:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: some thing olsner wrote two posts about on his blog then gave up on
15:03:25 <alise> *newline before 00:28:58 <Ilari>
15:03:56 <olsner> in particular, I've dropped all the "++" parts to make it easier to get somewhere
15:04:17 <alise> well, dropping the ++ part from C++ gives you a vastly superior language
15:04:31 <alise> olsner: make sure to stray far away from D territory; it is a failure and an abomination, so don't repeat it.
15:04:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: C++ is an abhorrent language
15:04:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, you weren't expressing some strange dislike for the post- and pre-decrement operators.
15:04:59 <alise> 02:30:38 <oerjan> Gregor: HackEgo is seriously broken, unless you've just fixed it.
15:04:59 <alise> 02:30:40 --- join: KingOfKarlsruhe (~nice@p5B14D8B0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #esoteric
15:04:59 <alise> 02:30:47 <Gregor> oerjan: It reset because I fixed it.
15:05:12 <alise> Someone find the `addquotes we've done in the meantime
15:05:27 <olsner> aha, where did D go in particular that was bad?
15:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Googling "M++" gives something weird which seems to involve both Unix and sharks.
15:06:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, isn't C a subset of C++? In the sense that a valid C program is also a valid C++ program?
15:09:56 <olsner> well, in terms of the sets of valid programs, there are many valid C programs that are not valid in C++
15:10:55 <olsner> nah, not really, but I might write one eventually :)
15:13:41 <alise> 02:34:00 <Gregor> oerjan: The office next to mine had "THE BRO-OFFICE" written on the whiteboard. So I modified it into "THE BROΦFFICE". Thinking of the diaresis mark as an umlaut made me consider finding the closest German analogue for that phrase and replacing it, but then I got lazy :P
15:13:50 <alise> I love diaereses <3
15:13:54 <alise> <olsner> aha, where did D go in particular that was bad?
15:14:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: e.g. int *x = malloc(butt)
15:14:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no implicit casting from void * in C++
15:14:40 <alise> olsner: It tries to be everything: it has (specified) laziness, closures, templates that border on macros, ...
15:14:59 <alise> olsner: In being all this, the actual underlying C++-esque language is very drab and boring without much insightful design; the rest is simply heaped on.
15:15:28 <alise> olsner: There's also the fact that getting the toolchains to work is actually the hardest thing to do in the language -- and of any language -- but that's not about the language.
15:16:10 <alise> (Seriously: To get the latest-stuff-that-actually-works, you have to compile LLVM yourself, then fiddle with CMake settings endlessly, then run the right script to compile Tango, make sure you don't specify D2, sometimes you have to do this in seperate stages, and /then/ you have to manually install the files.)
15:16:14 <alise> (And even then it only works sometimes.)
15:17:14 <alise> 02:40:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are old languages always hideous?
15:17:16 <alise> Lisp is not hideous.
15:17:24 <alise> And Lisp is one of THE oldest languages.
15:17:31 <alise> What predates it... hmm, Fortran. That's about it.
15:17:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Algol isn't so ugly.
15:17:56 <Deewiant> alise: Or, you can download the Tango bundle and untar it. :-P
15:18:17 <olsner> example code (BF interpreter): http://paste.cplusplus.se/paste.php?id=11910
15:18:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, Pascal isn't so ugly.
15:18:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Basically: Lisp, and anything Niklaus Wirth touched, isn't ugly.
15:18:43 <Deewiant> You also haven't had to compile LLVM yourself since LLVM 2.6.
15:18:52 <alise> THAT WAS NOT POINTLESS; THAT WAS A SIDE-EFFECT OF LIMITATIONS OF THE CHARACTER SETS BACK THEN.
15:19:00 <alise> Deewiant: Okay then: it USED to be flaming death, now it's just partly flaming death.
15:19:27 <Deewiant> At any point in time since, I don't know, 2008 maybe, there have been Tango bundles.
15:19:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: WELL, NOT EVERY LANGUAGE DID THAT. INDEED ALGOL 68, BLOATED BEAST THAT IT WAS, DEFINED THINGS ABSTRACTLY WITH UNDERLINES AND LOWERCASE TEXT -- AND SPECIFIED THAT IMPLEMENTERS MUST MAKE THIS WORK; THE MOST COMMON STRATEGY WAS UPPERCASE + PUNCTUATION MARKS.
15:19:59 <alise> (YOU COULD USE RESERVED WORDS AS VARIABLE NAMES BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE SET AS VARIABLES, NOT AS UNDERLINED KEYWORDS.)
15:20:08 <alise> Deewiant: But binaries are meh :P
15:20:29 <Deewiant> alise: If you insist on building from source, don't be surprised if it gets tricky. :-P
15:20:55 <alise> I'll just let pikhq continue this debate, he hates the D toolchain mess even more than me
15:21:03 <alise> pikhq pikhq pikhq (if you call his name thrice he appears)
15:22:18 <Deewiant> How much of a mess you end up in depends mostly on the project you want to build, I suppose
15:22:31 <Deewiant> If you're just starting to code something it's not at all bad.
15:24:14 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure there's a language called E.
15:24:22 <alise> It's a capability-based language thing. Quite nice.
15:24:27 <Deewiant> There's only a few letters that haven't been taken.
15:26:54 <Deewiant> Based on some quick Google-checking.
15:29:11 <alise> Dibs on the entire greek alphabet
15:30:39 <alise> the greek alphabet is great because literally every single character is pretty except capital xi
15:31:26 <alise> Do you really want it?
15:31:33 <Deewiant> I don't know, I think capital omicron is a bit boring
15:32:05 <alise> Zeta is beautiful.
15:32:13 <alise> Deewiant: Boring, perhaps, but not inelegant.
15:32:29 <alise> "The upper-case letter of omicron (O) was originally used as a symbol for Big O notation,"
15:32:32 <alise> Like you'd notice that.
15:32:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Definitely not lowercase Xi.
15:32:41 <alise> You know what? These letters aren't for sale.
15:32:45 <alise> You can't sell dibs.
15:32:47 <Deewiant> alise: I don't find it particularly pretty.
15:33:10 <alise> Deewiant: Okay, then: Every other letter. And don't say "not the uppercase ones that are equivalent to Latin ones" because they're only boring because they're familiar.
15:33:18 <alise> And Greek text, in general, looks gorgeous.
15:34:28 <oklopol> okay this is interesting, when playing minesweeper, i can't simultaneously solve another problem EXCEPT if i do all the inference speaking out loud
15:35:01 <oklopol> so maybe natural languages do have some use
15:35:02 <alise> The only flaw of the greek alphabet is... that lowercase upsilon and nu are very slightly confusable? Dunno.
15:35:23 <alise> Well... the way Ο hangs below the baseline is strange.
15:35:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It also represents a weird sound, at least in the IPA.
15:36:00 <alise> "the IPA"? You're strange.
15:36:30 <alise> http://scripts.sil.org/cms/sites/nrsi/media/Gentium_home_5.png i just want to stare at this all day
15:36:31 <oklopol> hmm, i wonder if i could solve a problem, watch a tv series and play minesweeper simultaneously
15:36:35 <alise> Deewiant: because IPA is usually treated as... a unit
15:36:42 <Deewiant> And that's not a weird sound :-P
15:37:05 <alise> Someone set Euclid's Elements (at least the first book) in Gentium nicely and I will love them forever
15:37:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ah ah ah, I still consider them part of the Greek alphabet
15:37:18 <alise> I already called them. BITCH
15:37:23 <Deewiant> alise: "The IPA" is grammatically correct, "IPA" alone isn't.
15:37:46 <alise> Deewiant: I don't care, I also consider "ATM machine" acceptable for instance.
15:37:51 <alise> I don't read acronyms as their expansions :P
15:38:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I already called it.
15:38:03 <oklopol> guys, no one cares about YOUR discussion, just join mine
15:38:08 <Deewiant> alise: If you just don't care, then don't consider it "strange" to do it correctly :-P
15:38:23 <oklopol> actually i don't care about either one ->
15:38:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I own the constructed scripts, so I can just make up letters.
15:38:51 <alise> Deewiant: I believe it perfectly correct to consider acronyms as atomic objects, not their expansions.
15:39:41 <Deewiant> I sometimes read acronyms as their expansions, so I prefer the phrasing to be valid for that as well.
15:40:04 <oklopol> alise: what's ATM machine?
15:41:06 <oklopol> wasn't sure because alternating turing machine machine works too
15:42:08 <oklopol> (i know what the other atm is but i didn't know what it was short for)
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15:43:18 <alise> [Quod Libet fails on me]
15:44:35 <Phantom_Hoover> "Because he/she/it "... I'm not sure what "libet" means.
15:45:21 <alise> quodlibet means "what pleases"
15:45:35 <alise> usually seen in "ex falso quodlibet", "from falsehood, follows what pleases"
15:45:53 <alise> anyway Quod Libet is just a music player.
15:46:21 <alise> So, guys, I need a suggestion for an audio library thing to play various audio formats programmatically.
15:46:31 <alise> Not GStreamer; GObject crap and iirc it's not gapless or something if you play multiple files.
15:46:38 <alise> Not Xine; Xine is shit.
15:46:42 <oklopol> well if you fail at exams, you fail at the subject, if you pass the exams, either you don't fail at the subjects or the exams fail at the subject
15:46:51 <alise> Anyone used it? Apparently ffmpeg has an example that uses SDL to do the actual audio but ffmpeg to decode?
15:47:38 <Deewiant> By "various audio formats" I guess you mean "typical audio formats"
15:47:47 <alise> What if they're silent PC obsessives and their cooling fan is inaudible?
15:48:06 <alise> Deewiant: FLAC, Vorbis, MP3 (it's okay if you have to enable some silly switch), AAC at least
15:48:43 <alise> I wish to write a music server, you see.
15:48:52 <alise> MPD and XMMS2 have the flaw that I didn't write them.
15:49:05 <Deewiant> You people and your NIH syndromes.
15:50:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A music server is a server that handles playing various subsets of a collection of music, while clients provide the interface and other functionality.
15:50:57 <alise> For instance, something that scrobbles played tracks to last.fm would be its own little daemon that connects to the music server, sets up a hook for the NewTrackStartedPlaying event or similar, and sends the info, while another client handles the actual user interaction.
15:51:05 <alise> Or you could have a command that works like "music stop", "music skip", etc.
15:51:13 <alise> (And Deewiant: yes, I'm aware you should wait until half-way to scrobble a track)
15:51:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Why separate the server and the client if it's for personal use?
15:51:36 <Deewiant> You can connect to it from different machines (more) conveniently.
15:51:43 <alise> Deewiant: Not for me, that's not my reason.
15:52:09 <alise> Greater extensibility: I may want to say "music skip" even if I normally use another client; the Unix philosophy is better, one tool for one job, and this enables it (see e.g. the last.fm client); if I'm going to write something, I should write it correctly, and the GUI should not be bundled with the actual player;
15:52:18 <alise> and it allows usage across different desktop environments and so on.
15:52:26 <alise> Plus if the GUI app crashes or has some problem it doesn't interrupt your music.
15:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover> So the server deals with actually getting the music out of the speakers?
15:53:55 <Deewiant> The server streams to the client, which gets it out of the speakers.
15:53:58 <alise> WTF, OSSv4 devices appear to have disappeared.
15:54:07 <alise> Deewiant: Er... no.
15:54:21 <alise> Deewiant: Are you sure you know how XMMS2/MPD work? Because it's not like that.
15:54:38 <Deewiant> Right, I'm confusing it with shoutcast and whatever.
15:54:59 <Deewiant> I know pretty much nothing of how they work.
15:55:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The server handles maintaining the collection of the music including parsing out their tags, etc., maintaining playlists -- including, say, ones done programatically based on some tags or whatnot -- and getting out of the speakers.
15:55:15 <Phantom_Hoover> My suggestion: get an instrument that you can play with your feet.
15:55:33 <alise> In turn, clients handle displaying what song is playing, letting the user change the song from a nice list, showing an interface to create and view playlists, setting modes like shuffle, etc., and also non-UI clients handle things like interfacing with last.fm and the like.
15:56:55 <Phantom_Hoover> You may also benefit from getting an application that automatically scrolls music across the screen.
15:57:08 <alise> How on earth has OSS just disappeared...
15:57:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Your suggestion is rubbish.
15:57:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Tada! You can now look like a complete idiot while listening to music.
15:57:41 <Deewiant> My issues with music players are mostly the supported file formats, so I don't much know or care about most of the other features.
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15:59:23 <alise> Deewiant: Heh, what do you use? MPC? WavPack? ...TAK?!
15:59:42 <alise> Wow, you might actually use Musepack.
15:59:47 <alise> That's a scary thought.
16:00:10 <Deewiant> I have a count from late 2007 here: only one .mpc.
16:00:22 <alise> Deewiant: What, then? .mid?
16:00:23 <Deewiant> It's mostly modules and the like.
16:00:55 <alise> I see midis and modules and the like as separate from actual audio wave files, so I don't particularly care about supporting them.
16:01:00 <alise> That's fileformatist, sure, but I don't really care.
16:01:00 <Deewiant> .mid, .mod, .s3m, .xm, .it, .gbs, .psf, .snd, .sndh, .ay, .gym, .sap, .sid, .mtm, .spc, ... off the top of my head.
16:01:36 <alise> Holy shit, they made a new Musepack release.
16:01:38 <Deewiant> I want to listen to them, so I don't care what I "see them as", just that they work :-P
16:01:52 <alise> Deewiant: It's not like you'd ever use software I wrote, anyway.
16:02:03 <Deewiant> It's not like you ever finish anything, anyway.
16:02:09 -!- jabb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:02:53 <alise> Deewiant: I'm deeply offended.
16:03:15 -!- softmoon has joined.
16:03:39 <alise> 02:55:43 <oerjan> <alise> ais523: "There exists a function UTM_P: UTM -> P such that interp_P(UTM_P(x)) = UTM(x) for all x"
16:03:39 <alise> 02:56:10 <oerjan> the function needs to be computable, otherwise you get almost everything
16:03:39 <alise> 02:56:25 <oerjan> also you may need a postprocessing function as well
16:03:43 <Deewiant> .ym is hard to find a player for.
16:03:43 <alise> I was considering something like
16:03:58 <Deewiant> Or easy to find, but it seems a bit random.
16:04:34 <alise> interp_P(UTM_P(x)) -out-> {halts_with(o) => interp_UTM(x) == halts_with(UTM_P_post(o)); hangs => hangs }
16:04:41 <Deewiant> Too bad I have around 400 of them.
16:05:26 <alise> 03:26:38 <Gregor> A police state is a state with police in it.
16:05:26 <alise> 03:26:43 <Gregor> The only true freedom is anarchy.
16:05:26 <alise> 03:26:44 <Gregor> :P
16:05:26 <alise> 03:27:32 <oerjan> Gregor: it is not particularly wise to define police state in such a way that almost all people would prefer to live in one
16:05:37 <Deewiant> .ym is ST-Sound's file format.
16:06:27 <Deewiant> Mostly for Atari stuff, AFAIK.
16:06:27 <oklopol> alise: do you mean almost all = all for sensible measures of finite populations
16:06:32 <alise> Deewiant: Well, that ... helps
16:06:42 <alise> oklopol: no, I'm not a pedantic asshole like that
16:06:49 <Deewiant> alise: http://leonard.oxg.free.fr/stsound.html
16:06:49 <alise> i'm a different kind of pedantic asshole
16:06:55 <alise> oklopol: I just meant that there are quite a few anarchists around.
16:07:01 <alise> hell, even in this channel
16:07:11 <alise> Deewiant: you're crazy
16:08:03 <alise> 05:03:41 <CakeProphet> ....none
16:08:04 <alise> 05:03:56 <CakeProphet> ..
16:08:04 <alise> 05:04:03 * CakeProphet is very tired and baked?
16:08:04 <alise> 05:09:38 <Phantom_Hoover> baked?
16:08:04 <alise> I THINK HE MIGHT BE REFERRING TO DRUGS
16:08:42 <Deewiant> alise: I listen to esoteric stuff :-P
16:09:23 -!- softmoon has left (?).
16:09:26 <oklopol> so phantom hoover is a hoover that's also a phantom, and cake prophet is a cake that's also a prophet, have i somehow seriously misunderstood how compounds are usually constructed
16:09:29 <Deewiant> Or at least, have some esoteric stuff that I want to be able to listen to on demand.
16:10:21 <alise> So, anyone ever used libvlc?
16:11:08 * alise uninstalls OSS, returns to ALSA in despair
16:15:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: Back when I was a DOSist, I used to use Cubic Player, because of the WΓΌrfel Mode.
16:15:42 <fizzie> I don't remember what it was like, just the name.
16:16:00 <fizzie> http://www.cubic.org/player/features.html "the only software on earth featuring WΓΌrfel Mode"
16:16:00 <alise> Something has gone awfully wrong.
16:16:05 <alise> Sound is... refusing to work.
16:16:13 <Deewiant> Doesn't handle much; just the common mod formats, MIDI, and SID.
16:16:27 <Deewiant> Oh, that feature list is a bit bigger than the one I was looking at.
16:17:00 <fizzie> No, but I didn't/don't have very esoteric files.
16:17:21 <fizzie> There's no screenshot of WΓΌrfel Mode either. But it supported all VESA text modes, and I think my Matrox Mystique 220 card offered quite many of those.
16:17:22 <Deewiant> My current plan is to go for http://xmp.sourceforge.net/ at some point.
16:21:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: During a brief Windows time, I also used http://www.exotica.org.uk/wiki/DeliPlayer for a while -- it has a reasonably large format support, but I guess it's pretty dead and was windows-only anyway.
16:22:52 <Deewiant> I might use that for the Amiga stuff if it were non-Windows.
16:25:43 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:25:58 <fizzie> There's that http://zakalwe.fi/uade/ too.
16:28:21 -!- alise has joined.
16:28:27 <alise> I am unable to get sound working
16:30:31 <alise> Deewiant: Should I just install Arch? And why am I asking an Arch fanboy this?
16:32:10 <alise> Apart from Scheme users.
16:32:16 <alise> Or Reduceron users.
16:32:48 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:35:35 <alise> I had plans for a Scheme OS once. Was going to use someone's little x86-sexp-assembler written in Scheme.
16:35:41 <alise> Was going to be called X-Scheme or something.
16:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> And it fell by the wayside, like so many of our dreams?
16:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I need to go on an epic journey across Scotland and over the Irish sea in about 10 minutes, for "work" "experience".
16:40:40 <Deewiant> alise: Hey, "fanboy" is a bit strong.
16:40:58 <Deewiant> fizzie: Thanks for that UADE thing; I don't think I knew about that, before.
16:41:14 <alise> Deewiant: Fanboy isn't a very strong word :P
16:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Fun fact: I have a NASA t-shirt with what seem like blatant mathematical errors on it..
16:41:20 <alise> Deewiant: And you didn't answer my question!
16:41:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: your mother is a blatant mathematical error LOL LOL
16:41:39 <alise> Please tell me if your mother is actually dead that causes a lot of awkwardness for me here
16:42:19 <alise> Well, I know of two in here who talk a lot who fit that bill.
16:43:16 <alise> Your mom is so fat she DIED.
16:43:44 <alise> YOUR MOTHER IS SUCH A FAT WHORE, SHE DIED OF A PENIS INFECTION. ALSO, OBESITY.
16:43:46 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: luxy has an abcd! krob! krob! krob! krob!
16:44:07 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
16:44:14 <alise> fungot: luxy has an abcd! krob!
16:44:15 <fungot> alise: plus one exception to that.) the service book.
16:44:51 <alise> `addquote <fungot> pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. [...]
16:44:52 <fungot> alise: ( .)y(.) bbl. going to use apple hw then indents the s-expression following that. they are even more limited pre-scheme.
16:44:53 <HackEgo> 170|<fungot> pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. [...]
16:44:57 <alise> `addquote <fungot> alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia
16:44:58 <fungot> alise: most people slow down while driving by accidents, most of which are themselves lists, then party on.
16:45:00 <HackEgo> 171|<fungot> alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia
16:45:04 <alise> `addquote <fungot> AnMaster: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions
16:45:05 <fungot> alise: standardizing on s-r _only_? surely someone must have cancelled. too bad it died ( or so it seemed.
16:45:07 <HackEgo> 172|<fungot> AnMaster: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions
16:45:08 <alise> Filling in the fungot-quote backlog :P
16:45:19 <alise> `addquote <fungot> AnMaster: to any airbus plane. 3 passengers sadly died the most awesome thing ever.
16:45:21 <HackEgo> 173|<fungot> AnMaster: to any airbus plane. 3 passengers sadly died the most awesome thing ever.
16:45:39 <fizzie> He's sometimes a bit inconsiderate.
16:45:45 <alise> `addquote <fungot> [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
16:45:48 <HackEgo> 174|<fungot> [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
16:47:09 <alise> `addquote <AnMaster> alise, marble <AnMaster> marbelus
16:47:13 <HackEgo> 175|<AnMaster> alise, marble <AnMaster> marbelus
16:47:18 <alise> These are a bit chronologically distorted, but who cares
16:47:25 <alise> `addquote <alise> cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment <alise> and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other.
16:47:28 <HackEgo> 176|<alise> cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment <alise> and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other.
16:47:29 <alise> (coppro tried to quote that, not me)
16:47:48 <Deewiant> alise: I figured that by calling me a fanboy you'd guessed my answer already
16:47:57 <alise> Deewiant: MAYBE I'M WRONG.
16:48:59 <alise> Deewiant: Tell me, I can't take it any longer!
16:49:33 <Deewiant> Yes, go ahead and install Arch, it'll make life easier :-P
16:50:12 <alise> Deewiant: Issue; my mother uses this computer sometimes.
16:51:44 <alise> YES, but, this is the only half-shared computer
16:52:40 <Deewiant> So, why are you caring about whether stuff works on that one ;-P
16:52:51 <alise> It's the only one unpacked and plugged in atm.
16:54:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:54:57 <alise> Deewiant: I need life advice ;_; like an antelope
16:57:53 <alise> Deewiant: Tried & failed.
16:57:56 <alise> The mixer is just ... not there
16:58:42 <alise> Deewiant: Have you ever been in #ubuntu?
16:58:46 <alise> No? Count yourself lucky.
16:59:06 <alise> You repeat something fifty times, and still nobody's actual question is answered.
16:59:11 <alise> Just tiny irrelevant ones that aren't even vaguely technical.
16:59:20 <alise> (If you just say it ONE time, then it disappears into the backlog in about 2 seconds.)
17:03:55 <alise> Deewiant: Which is probably a reason to switch to Arch, really.
17:04:59 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Yes, go ahead and install Arch, it'll make life easier :-P <-- but you have to edit some text config files at least once. I'm not sure alise is that type
17:05:19 <alise> Hey, I am perfectly capable of editing textual configuration files.
17:05:20 <AnMaster> well I'm sure he could do it, but I also suspect he wouldn't like it
17:05:29 <AnMaster> alise, yes but you don't want to, right?
17:05:51 <alise> It's not my fault that "Linuxtarded just-make-it-work idiot" and "incredibly ultra-genius visionary post-configuration post-object-oriented metasystem enthusiast" are so easily confusable when presented with Linux :-P
17:06:05 <alise> (Not just genius, INCREDIBLY ULTRA-genius)
17:06:26 <AnMaster> alise, because at end of install you will get a menu to edit some system config files, you probably need to set time zone and a few misc things at least. Oh and you need to add the init scripts to start by using a config file that lists them, In the order you want XD
17:07:14 <alise> I've installed Arch before.
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17:07:30 <AnMaster> there are two things that annoys me with arch linux: 1) init script system is rather limited 2) no debug symbol packages (yet, and this has been planed for a looong time)
17:07:32 <alise> The bit I don't like is that configuration thing that you have to re-combine the kernel or whatever to take effect.
17:07:35 <alise> It has modules and stuff in it.
17:07:41 <alise> I can never decide what to put in it first time!
17:07:46 <AnMaster> alise, you mean re-generate initramfs?
17:08:10 <alise> (1) doesn't bother me, my init needs are very minimal and (2) so how do you debug programs effectively?
17:09:02 <Deewiant> (2) only applies if you're debugging a system library
17:09:12 <zzo38> Maybe if you don't like it, change it?
17:09:13 <AnMaster> alise, well, (2) by building a custom glibc that installs debug symbols, that is what I need for my debugging currently. Don't really need debug symbols for all the other stuff
17:09:34 <alise> Well, my only problem with Arch is that (1) it sucks, like all software and (2) I don't think my mother would appreciate using it
17:09:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, debug symbols for glibc is increadibly useful for any debugging.
17:09:59 <Deewiant> I've yet to even feel the need for debuggers typically :-P
17:10:14 <Deewiant> alise: (1) doesn't really count
17:10:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yesterday I tried another one, debugging over IR. Embedded systems are quite interesting to debug sometimes...
17:10:29 <alise> Well, it sucks to initially set up moreso than Ubuntu, then
17:10:37 <AnMaster> basically printf but sending messages over ir
17:10:50 <AnMaster> however, it turned out to solve the issue, due to the extra delay that printf over IR caused XD
17:11:23 <alise> oh to hell with it, I'll just buy my mother a portable solitaire device
17:11:29 <AnMaster> alise, I'm quite sure your DAEMONS array will be nothing like mine, but in case it helps:
17:11:36 <AnMaster> DAEMONS=(syslog-ng @sensors @gpm @smartd @alsa network @iptables @ntpd @aiccu @sshd @hal crond @ddclient @ip6tables @denyhosts @postfix @mdadm @cpufreq)
17:11:38 <alise> actually, maybe I'll just get her an iPad, it would satisfy like 110% of everything she wants to do with a computer :-P
17:11:48 <alise> it has solitaire, email, and the web
17:11:52 <zzo38> I have been on #ubuntu channel, but only for one thing, to ask about autorun DVDs in Ubuntu, so that I can do Quality Control testing. (Please note all the computers already have Ubuntu installed (it has nothing to do with me), I just needed to add a program.)
17:11:58 <alise> AnMaster: @ = not?
17:12:00 <alise> AnMaster: she = mother
17:12:04 <alise> this is the semi-shared computer
17:12:19 <Deewiant> DAEMONS=(syslog-ng fix-mtrr @network @irqbalance !netfs @crond arch32 @alsa @hal @cups @sshd @openntpd @inadyn)
17:13:01 <Deewiant> Could actually remove that !netfs
17:13:23 <alise> But ALSA is lame :<
17:13:36 <alise> AnMaster: I thought you hated HAL?
17:13:44 <Deewiant> I wonder if that even does anything for me
17:13:56 <alise> Why not load syslog-ng in background :P
17:14:09 <AnMaster> alise, yes but things doesn't work without it
17:14:21 <alise> I never read system logs anyway :D
17:14:25 <AnMaster> alise, as for syslog-ng, I don't want to miss out on early errors
17:14:34 <alise> Deewiant: heh; what do you use instead of alsa?
17:14:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't alsa just restore mixer levels?
17:14:46 <alise> Deewiant: Pulse uses ALSA.
17:14:50 <alise> Deewiant: It's a layer over ALSA.
17:14:52 <alise> Deewiant: Or OSS, I think.
17:14:57 <Deewiant> It's a layer over a million things
17:15:03 <alise> Deewiant: What do you layer it over then...?
17:15:03 <Deewiant> But yes, that just restores the mixer levels
17:15:13 <Deewiant> I don't know, whatever it does by default I guess
17:15:17 <alise> Methinks I'll use pekwm
17:15:22 <alise> Plus gnome-tray or something
17:15:37 <alise> Or maybe XFCE's panel
17:16:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you probably want alsa there then. Since otherwise channels start all muted iirc
17:16:34 <alise> THE POWAH OF OSSV4
17:16:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I just stopped alsa and sound still works
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17:17:58 <AnMaster> stop just saves mixer levels to a file
17:18:08 <AnMaster> afaik stop doesn't mute channels
17:20:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it isn't like it hogs system resources or anything
17:21:00 <Deewiant> That doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed
17:21:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it should be removed if you aren't using ALSA, but probably not otherwise
17:21:34 <AnMaster> unless you like messing with mixer controls at every boot
17:27:54 <zzo38> Which card games do you play?
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17:34:34 <alise> AnMaster: what options are good to enable on a filesystem again? noatime, what else?
17:34:52 <alise> ?? Doesn't noatime do that?
17:35:07 * alise considers using JFS
17:35:13 <alise> Does Arch support JFS out of the box, I wonder?
17:35:45 <Deewiant> You mean the standard kernel in the core repository? Dunno.
17:35:56 <alise> Fast and reliable like XFS, "fsck" takes 2 seconds if there's an error and <1s if there's none, error recovery is very good, ...
17:36:22 <alise> Huh, apparently it's actually <1s for system failure, not 2s
17:36:48 <alise> "The JFS driver is built as a module in the standard Arch kernel packages."
17:37:01 <alise> So I just have to add "jfs" to one of those file things, right?
17:37:12 <alise> "one of those file things" :D
17:37:23 <alise> If you are using a generic Arch package for your kernel, you can simply append elevator=deadline to the kernel line in your /boot/grub/menu.lst The kernel entry would look something like:
17:37:38 <alise> It is also possible to enable the Deadline I/O scheduler for specific devices by invoking the following command:
17:37:39 <alise> echo deadline > /sys/block/sda/queue/scheduler
17:39:47 <alise> Are you using JFS?
17:39:55 <alise> JFS+deadline outperforms all other Linux filesystems, IIRC.
17:40:07 <alise> Then just keep using whatever.
17:40:25 <zzo38> Do you play? Bridge? Hearts? Poker? Solitaire? Gin Rummy? Pokemon Card? Tarot Card?
17:40:31 <alise> Hells yeah, Brain Fuck Scheduler is in AUR
17:40:37 <alise> zzo38: Solitaire is actually called Klondike.
17:40:40 <Deewiant> I don't play any card game actively
17:41:01 <zzo38> alise: I meant solitaire games in general, I didn't mean Klondike solitaire specifically
17:41:20 <alise> Tarot isn't a game, just a silly waste of time :-)
17:42:14 <zzo38> No, it is actually just a deck of cards. There are many kind of games that are played with them, however. (Most are trick-taking types, which were what tarot cards originally designed for; but now you can also play Gnostics (which also requires Icehouse pieces as well))
17:43:13 <alise> Ah, I didn't realise.
17:44:50 <zzo38> Now, if I could make a deck like http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/screen/spider-tarot-cardset.png but larger and for printing, with numbers in both corners, and a book to go with it (describing various games (both soitaire and multiplayer), also possibly with a very brief appendix about "interpretations" of the "meanings" of cards and so on)
17:45:22 <zzo38> This is my preferred tarot deck although the one in the picture is only suitable for computer game
17:45:25 <alise> http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=32877 ;; con kolivas patchset kernel
17:46:10 <zzo38> I also like Uncarrot Tarot but it is not available anywhere and not compatible with standard tarot. Spider tarot is compatible with normal tarot, so the standard trick taking games can still be played with them.
17:46:21 <alise> Deewiant: https://lwn.net/Articles/244941/ noatime => nodiratime
17:47:32 <zzo38> (The problem is if the majors have to be given names, which is used in Gnostica (but you could just write down which number has which effect)
17:48:09 <zzo38> Do you like this deck?
17:48:18 <alise> Time to reboot, then.
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17:51:43 <zzo38> I think I found another bug in ngIRCd, it doesn't log QUIT messages!
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18:20:49 <kalise> fucking fuck fuck fucker fuckity
18:20:52 -!- kalise has changed nick to alise.
18:21:07 <alise> It was doing its mkcpio thing after I configured it when I accidentally ^C'd the installer
18:21:13 <alise> Now it wants me to do it all over again just to do that part
18:21:23 <alise> Deewiant: AnMaster: HALP
18:21:53 <alise> Deewiant: But that's completely pointless, and slow.
18:22:03 <Deewiant> So is accidentally ^C'ing stuff in the middle of installation.
18:22:14 <alise> I was trying to cancel one particular step.
18:22:53 <Deewiant> You don't have much of a choice here AFAIK :-P
18:23:08 <Deewiant> Install manually or do it again.
18:23:22 <alise> Now it says that the filesystem is busy, ha ha ha
18:23:43 <alise> umount doesn't work. ha ha ha.
18:23:47 <alise> It says it's busy too; ha ha ha.
18:24:04 <alise> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
18:24:39 <alise> umount -f -l /dev/sdb1
18:24:56 <Deewiant> Maybe start with fuser/lsof :-P
18:25:44 <alise> Why does it complain about having no separate /boot?
18:25:47 <alise> This is, like, 2012.
18:26:00 <Deewiant> I dunno. I have a separate /boot.
18:26:27 <Deewiant> So that I can't accidentally overwrite my grub.conf or kernel.
18:26:35 <alise> Other things I'm going to have to figure out before I reboot this thing: lilo!
18:26:44 <alise> grub technically can boot jfs but it's very unrecommended
18:27:09 <alise> lilo totally gets a bad rep :)))
18:27:18 <Deewiant> Or... a separate /boot with a more palatable fs ;-P
18:27:28 <alise> JFS is perfectly palatable. And I don't like GRUB anyway.
18:27:33 <alise> Nothing wrong with lilo.
18:27:38 <alise> It's not the lilo that was around in the 90s :P
18:27:39 <Deewiant> Palatable to GRUB, I obviously meant.
18:27:53 <alise> "Oh no, I have to run lilo(1) when I update my kernel!"
18:28:09 <alise> arch installs sysvinit by default -- have they abandoned the bsd style init?!
18:30:18 * alise uses /dev/sd[a-z][0-9]+ identifiers in fstab cuz he's a rebel
18:30:27 <alise> *she's; stupid self-inflicted nick pronouns
18:31:12 <alise> Anyone in here used pekwm?
18:32:45 <alise> I forgot how cool xdm is
18:33:29 <alise> what the heck is netfs anyway
18:36:20 * alise considers using xfwm
18:37:29 -!- lament has joined.
18:38:14 <alise> alas, i lament lament, a last lament, alas
18:38:58 <alise> alas, I lament, I lament lament, I lament, alas <-- palindrome
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18:39:29 <alise> CakeProphet prophesises cakes
18:41:50 <alise> Deewiant: thanks for the helpful advice, it just installed the packages then failed and quit again
18:42:02 <alise> because it couldn't umount /mnt/proc which was apparently mounted
18:42:07 <alise> so i have to do it ALL. OVER. AGAIN
18:42:14 <alise> oasijfsgsoyshjhiohjhjopjoisjgirg
18:42:46 <alise> YH8998982Y3892Y321873Y12983Y89213Y98213
18:42:49 <alise> well time to reboot.
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18:47:10 <AnMaster> <alise> Deewiant: AnMaster: HALP <-- ?
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19:07:39 <oerjan> 03:53:45 --- quit: oerjan (Quit: Later)
19:07:46 <oerjan> 03:56:02 <oklopol> "hey wasn't it pretty lol when oerjan left"
19:08:16 <coppro> alise: thanks for adding that quote
19:08:18 <oerjan> well if you find that quit message hilarious...
19:08:36 <oerjan> perhaps it means something funny in finnish
19:09:05 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Baah, why is no-one interested in the TreeVM?
19:09:21 <oerjan> it's not really a very new idea
19:10:05 <oerjan> also, that is our _normal_ reaction to 90% of new esolangs.
19:11:33 <oerjan> although that may be because 90% of esolangs are just machine codes with slightly eclectic instruction sets
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19:27:45 <AnMaster> I wonder why Reduce[d == Norm[{a - b, c - d} + t*{v - u, x - y}], {t}] makes mathematica lock up
19:31:49 <Oranjer> somewhat obvious, but I had to check: it begins to load in wolfram alpha, but then stops
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19:41:17 <AnMaster> Oranjer, I presume they kill queries after some fixed time limit
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21:05:31 <zzo38> Why does the HELP command in ngIRCd send ERR_NORECIPIENT_MSG if you put too many arguments?
21:06:06 <oerjan> i guess it just likes to argue.
21:06:59 <oerjan> what happens if you put your nick as the extra argument?
21:07:05 <zzo38> But shouldn't it be ERR_NEEDMOREPARAMS_MSG instead? Most commands do that if you put the wrong number of arguments
21:07:30 <oerjan> or perhaps as the first argument
21:07:36 <zzo38> oerjan: The same error. It sends that error if there are any arguments at all. (If there are no arguments, it lists the valid commands)
21:07:45 <zzo38> if( Req->argc > 0 ) return IRC_WriteStrClient( Client, ERR_NORECIPIENT_MSG, Client_ID( Client ), Req->command );
21:08:38 <oerjan> well, ERR_NEEDMOREPARAMS_MSG seems like it should only be used if you use too _few_ arguments
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21:09:30 <oerjan> and most commands that take an argument take the recipient as the first one, so saying that it takes no recipient makes sort of sense
21:09:32 <zzo38> It does sound like it, but maybe in IRC it is the same message number
21:11:08 <zzo38> #define ERR_NORECIPIENT_MSG "411 %s :No recipient given (%s)"
21:11:29 <oerjan> well that does sound wrong then
21:11:40 -!- alise has joined.
21:12:42 <zzo38> Anyways: I am adding in an additional function to the HELP command, which is that if it has exactly one argument, it will send a help topic message to the client. (With no arguments it will just list the valid commands the same way it already does)
21:12:45 <alise> <me> [rejoins after being gone for a while, having previously had a long discussion about how to fix Xorg config] I don't suppose anyone has any more ideas, I tried everything before [etc.] <nazi> [link to stupid "HOW TO ASK QUESTIONS ON IRC" guide] <me> nazi: I was just asking the few people who'd talked about it before
21:12:55 <alise> <nazi> That's not how it works <me> What's not how what works?
21:13:04 <alise> <nazi> Blah blah blah you must ask full detailed questions with output blah blah blah
21:13:09 <alise> IRC support sucks.
21:14:06 <Deewiant> If you want proper support, consider Red Hat :-P
21:14:11 <alise> Deewiant: I don't suppose you use any PS/2 devices?
21:14:24 <alise> Deewiant: HOW THE FUCK DO YOU MAKE X11 LIKE IT.
21:14:35 <alise> I've tried evdev, non-evdev, every fucking thing, it only worked once and I was unable to reproduce it.
21:14:38 <Deewiant> Didn't have to twiddle anything.
21:14:41 <alise> What the hell kind of magical settings do you have?
21:14:44 <alise> Oh, so no xorg.conf.
21:14:48 <alise> If only I were so lucky.
21:14:57 <Deewiant> I do have a xorg.conf but it doesn't have my keyboard settings.
21:16:57 <alise> Do you have a ServerLayout section?
21:17:24 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure I have all the graphics-related stuff there.
21:18:10 <alise> So you have InputDevice lines in that ServerLayout section, then?
21:18:26 <uorygl> Aww, the Finnish word "pointti" is so cute!
21:18:41 <alise> Deewiant: Then... that cannot possibly work
21:19:00 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
21:19:13 <oerjan> `translatefromto fi en pointti
21:19:43 <Deewiant> oerjan: Colloquial loanword: "point" as in meaning
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21:21:12 <uorygl> Kaj said, "So I blogged (in Finnish) about people who want age limits on books. Somehow the comments section of this post managed to become a debate on climate change. Go figure."
21:21:46 <uorygl> Then Mauno said, "Jis eivÀt ryhtyneet maahanmuutosta vÀittelemÀÀn, on se jo saavutus," and Kaj said, ":D Pointti."
21:22:24 <Deewiant> That's an extreme anglicism :-P
21:23:24 <uorygl> Now, what does what Mauno said mean?
21:24:02 <uorygl> `swedish Jos eivÀt ryhtyneet maahanmuutosta vÀittelemÀÀn, on se jo saavutus.
21:24:04 <HackEgo> Jus ieefÀt ryhtyneet meehunmooootusta fÀittelemÀÀn, oon se-a ju seefootoos. \ Bork Bork Bork!
21:24:27 <Deewiant> "If they didn't start debating immigration, that's already an achievement"
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21:27:46 <zzo38> Is there any documentation what the HackEgo commands do? (Usually I just always get "No output." regardless of anything)
21:29:08 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Look up what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/'"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 100 'Jump to:' | \ tail -n +3 | \ sed 's/ */ /g'
21:29:30 <uorygl> Ask me and I can probably tell you.
21:29:55 <zzo38> uorygl: My question is all of them!
21:30:06 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
21:30:19 <zzo38> Is there a FTP session for these files?
21:30:34 <uorygl> I don't know what ? does, addquote adds a quote to the quotes database, calc tells Google to calculate something, commands probably does the same thing as ls bin, creatures looks something up on the Creatures Wiki...
21:30:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Calculate what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q='"$QUERY" | \ grep -m 1 '=' | sed 's/ \+/ /g'
21:30:45 <HackEgo> ?, addquote, calc, commands, creatures, define, esolang, etymology, fortune, \ google, helpme, imdb, karma, marco, minifind, paste, ping, quote, rec, roll, \ runfor, sayhi, strfile, swedish, toutf8, translate, translatefromto, \ translateto, unstr, url, wolfram
21:30:52 <HackEgo> I like big butts and I cannot lie. You other brothers can not deny that when a girl comes in with an itty bitty waist and a round thing in your face, you get sprung.
21:30:53 <oerjan> zzo38: note that HackEgo has been buggy for many days until today
21:31:07 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd `dirname "$0"` \ cat ../help.txt
21:31:15 <uorygl> define looks up the definition of something somewhere, esolang looks something up on Esolang, etymology looks something up in the Online Etymology Dictionary, fortune... probably gives you a fortune cookie or something...
21:31:21 <HackEgo> Save gas, don't eat beans.
21:32:01 <uorygl> google does a Google search, helpme presumably does just that, imdb looks something up on IMDB, karma doesn't do much, I'm betting marco causes it to say "Polo", I don't know what minifind does, I think paste links to a pastebin...
21:32:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1595
21:32:32 <uorygl> Evidently `calc doesn't actually work.
21:32:35 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
21:32:43 <zzo38> O, that is why it is broken
21:32:44 <oerjan> and the google lookup commands are probably all broken now :(
21:33:14 <zzo38> I thought I just entered the command wrong
21:33:16 <uorygl> ping does that, quote gives you a random quote from the quotes file, I don't know what rec does, roll maybe rolls a die, I don't know what runfor does, sayhi is probably like marco and ping, I don't know what strfile does...
21:33:57 <uorygl> swedish translates something into mock Swedish, toutf8 translates some character encoding to UTF-8, translate and its brethren do nothing, I don't know what unstr does, I don't know what url does, wolfram looks something up on Wolfram Alpha.
21:34:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ rolls="$*" \ if [ "$rolls" = "" ] ; then rolls="1d6" ; fi \ \ for i in $rolls \ do \ if expr "$i" : ".*[dD].*" >& /dev/null \ then \ rollc=`echo "$i" | sed 's/[dD].*//'` \ diesz=`echo "$i" | sed 's/.*[dD]//'` \ else \ rollc=1 \ diesz="$i" \ fi \ \ roll=0
21:34:18 <oerjan> zzo38: calc, google and translate* used to work via google lookup
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21:34:48 <oerjan> but presumably it broke in one of google's redesigns
21:35:11 <uorygl> Heh, 1d6*2 rolled an odd number.
21:35:37 <Deewiant> Yeah, dunno what it did there :-P
21:36:01 <uorygl> It's rolling a (6-2)-sided die.
21:36:09 <uorygl> Oh, it finally finished rolling 1000000d6. :P
21:36:37 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ rolls="$*" \ if [ "$rolls" = "" ] ; then rolls="1d6" ; fi \ \ for i in $rolls \ do \ if expr "$i" : ".*[dD].*" >& /dev/null \ then \ rollc=`echo "$i" | sed 's/[dD].*//'` \ diesz=`echo "$i" | sed 's/.*[dD]//'` \ else \ rollc=1 \ diesz="$i" \ fi \ \ roll=0
21:36:49 <Deewiant> Great that it supports +-* but not in any useful way :-P
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22:27:08 * alise wonders whether to use XFCE, or to roll his own with pekwm + some panel
22:27:11 <alise> I REQUIRE OPINIONS
22:27:34 <oerjan> USE XFCE IT HAS MORE CAPS
22:28:06 <alise> it's actually Xfce
22:29:25 <alise> xfce works fine but it's a bit... bloated and boring
22:29:50 * oerjan wonders if he should point out he has no clue, in case that weren't obvious
22:30:02 <alise> I'm waiting for someone else to talk :-)
22:31:59 <alise> zzo38: what's your opinion?
22:32:52 <Sgeo_> I'd give you an opinion, but I'm usually devoid of opinions
22:33:15 <Sgeo_> Hm, here's one: freeallegiance.org is a good game, even though it's Windows-only and has DRM-esque stuff
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22:36:14 <alise> you didn't tell me what they represented!
22:36:45 <alise> It's a surprisigly good way to figure out what you want to do
22:36:53 <oerjan> roll your own, cursed by fate
22:36:57 <Deewiant> Especially when you've already made your decision
22:37:00 <alise> roll a die for it; if you get a result and think "No!", you want the opposite
22:37:08 <alise> Deewiant: but sometimes I can't analyse myself to figure out which decision I really want
22:37:16 <alise> so I rely on the instinctive bad reaction to the choice I don't want to figure it out
22:37:21 <Deewiant> Can't you just roll a hypothetical die instead?
22:37:32 <alise> no, for some reason that doesn't work because i know what i'm trying to do or something
22:37:42 <Sgeo_> 1 = LambdaMOO 2=M*U*S*H
22:37:52 <Sgeo_> No, I like coding LambdaMOO
22:37:54 <oerjan> didn't oklopol say something about this dice-rolling trick
22:38:50 <alise> i'd ask Deewiant for yet another one of his perfect opinions but he uses openbox or something
22:38:54 <alise> which i cannot forgive
22:39:15 <oerjan> HackEgo probably doesn't use the cheat for large number of rolls that lambdabot uses
22:39:32 <Deewiant> alise: I like that my opinions are perfect but unforgivable
22:39:35 <oerjan> (approximate with normal distribution)
22:39:35 <alise> oerjan: what cheat?
22:39:43 <alise> Deewiant: well your opinion on this matter (desktops) definitely is
22:39:57 <oerjan> <oerjan> (approximate with normal distribution)
22:40:26 <HackEgo> 144|<vadim> it can be a good fursuit, but the good thing is that nobody can complain a fox doesn't have the right skin tone
22:40:53 <oerjan> in pursuit of a fursuit
22:41:07 <alise> fusuit of a fursuit: futile pursuit of a fursuit
22:41:37 <alise> window managers eh
22:41:40 <alise> oerjan: futile pursuit, duh!
22:41:57 <alise> I AM ASKING GUYS (WHICH IS YOU IF YOU IS NOT DEEWIANT) WHICH IS GOOD WINDOW MANAGER
22:42:14 <alise> ALSO NOT PIKHQ, HE'LL SUGGEST RAT POISON WHICH IS _BARBARIC_
22:42:49 <alise> I'D USE http://www.jfc.org.uk/software/lwm.html, BUT LAST TIME I USED IT I REALISED I WASN'T HARDCORE ENOUGH TO USE IT
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22:43:11 <alise> YES, OPENING BOXES IS BASICALLY TANTAMOUNT TO GENOCIDE
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22:43:36 <alise> Kernel window manager?
22:43:41 <alise> What haven't they got in the kernel these days, eh?!
22:43:51 <alise> I've never heard of kwm
22:44:02 * Sgeo_ meant whatever KDE uses
22:44:13 <Deewiant> Googling KWM gives KDE-related results
22:44:21 <alise> kde has the disadvantage that kde sucks
22:44:27 * oerjan mentions xmonad just to find out why alise hates it
22:44:38 <Sgeo_> Because of people like me that assume that it should be kwm?
22:44:38 <alise> oerjan: the recompile-to-configure thing is stupid
22:44:48 <alise> and the actual haskell configuration part is stupid, it's not written very well
22:44:51 <alise> and i don't like tiling managers
22:44:53 <Deewiant> http://wiki.debian.org/WindowManager calls it "KWin / Kwm"
22:44:57 <alise> and it's basically like a bloated, haskell version of dwm
22:47:29 <alise> http://karmen.sourceforge.net/karmen-0.13-640x480.png reminds me os Mac OS
22:47:34 <alise> whoa -- that guy uses ed
22:47:54 <Deewiant> Probably just for the screenshot ;-)
22:48:05 <alise> no, people like that tend to use ed
22:48:12 <alise> the uber-minimalist plan 9 folks
22:48:23 <alise> quite commendable in its insanity really
22:48:51 <alise> ken thompson &co obviously used it for a long time, i think ken is using sam now though which is basically ed with a view of the file
22:48:55 <Deewiant> I mean, I can understand using it on a terminal connected to something via a 300 baud modem, but sheesh
22:49:08 <alise> and several other folk used it
22:49:23 <alise> Deewiant: well ... it's not actually all that bad
22:49:43 <alise> i mean, it's very similar to ex, which is just the : vi commands...
22:49:52 <alise> so if you're good at using its commands to /view/ stuff you're set
22:50:08 <Deewiant> I just think that "view of the file" is fairly crucial
22:50:31 <alise> Yes, well. We will never truly understand the enlightenment attained by those who code in merely ed.
22:50:37 <alise> I've used TECO before; that was fun.
22:50:43 <alise> Actually not so bad once you figure it out.
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22:53:05 <alise> "Armed with these certainties, therefore, I embarked upon a spiritualist quest to write the perfect window manager. It has a lot of faults - more faults than features, probably - but goddammit the faults are perfect too.
22:53:14 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431]).
22:53:17 <alise> "Addendum: This page, and wm2 itself, were written in 1996. Other window managers are better now than they were then, and I'm older and less zealous."
22:54:02 <alise> By the author of Rosegarden, it seems.
22:55:32 <alise> Deewiant: What's that awesome pacman replacement that uses aria2 so everything goes so fast you're left feeling a little sad that there wasn't more fun to be had?
22:55:43 <alise> And why do I turn every description into a sort of existentialist nightmare?
22:55:51 <alise> Especially when I misuse the term "existentialist"?
22:55:59 <alise> What does clyde to
22:56:04 <Deewiant> Which doesn't have magic downloading but was otherwise nicer
22:56:04 <alise> And what is it with Archers and wrapping pacman
22:56:13 <Deewiant> It doesn't wrap pacman, for a change
22:56:14 <alise> Deewiant: Yeah, well, some of us only have 8 megabit connections.
22:56:40 <alise> there's a LIBRARY and people still wrap it?
22:56:41 <Deewiant> Its main advantage is search speed, IIRC
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23:30:52 <zzo38> Everyone else use different window-manager and package-manager, but I have to write my own window manager, and also write the Arcane Linux Package Manager, or "pm" for short ("pm" being the command you must type in to activate it). And "pm" has to take package data from standard input and then install it if -I is given, and so on. (If no arguments are given, it must accept package data from stdin and then do nothing with it.)
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23:31:10 <alise> Ugh; most PekWM themes suck.
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23:41:20 <alise> I NEED LIFE ADVICE.
23:44:29 * Sgeo_ may be the wrong person to ask
23:44:40 <alise> IT'S ACTUALLY WINDOW MANAGER ADVICE.
23:47:18 <zzo38> I don't know which window managers are best, or about the function of some window managers
23:47:42 <alise> Basically all I want is something with a titlebar and minimise/maximise/close buttons :-)
23:49:06 <alise> fvwm is a bit arcane and complex; and the -95 portion just makes your computer look like Windows 95, so, uh, yeah.
23:49:23 <alise> pekwm is quite good, xfwm4 is quite good (but it's a bit too tied to xfce), ...
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23:51:06 <alise> pekwm has some oddities though. the menu, for instance; i dislike menu-controlled WMs.
23:51:15 <alise> if someone just made an updated icewm that'd be great.
23:54:40 <alise> i have a feeling that if Deewiant didn't have a terrible opinion on this matter he'd have a great opinion :D
23:56:34 <augur> you come up with the greatest little aphorisms
23:56:45 <alise> Am I the only one who pronounces lmfao as limmfaaao?
23:56:54 <alise> Like "lympho", were that a word.
23:57:03 <alise> Wait, it is! Excellent.
23:57:10 <alise> Well, it's a prefix, at least.
23:57:11 <augur> lymphomaniac: a person who craves lymph nodes
23:57:31 <augur> or who secrets sebaceous fluid
23:58:19 <alise> so, mmaker thinks that the pacman package manager should be filed under Games -> Arcade
23:59:33 <alise> it's an (arch linux specific?) utility that generates a menu file for various window managers/task bars (for the "start"-imitation menu) based on installed packages
23:59:44 <alise> pacman is the arch linux package manager, but mmaker deduces that it must be the arcade game instead :-)