00:00:18 <zzo38> I have seen this error message somewhere: "Passwords with a letter 'I' in the third position are not supported. Please choose a different password."
00:02:57 <zzo38> (I didn't get this error myself, I saw it elsewhere)
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00:06:23 <zzo38> I am making modifications to ngIRCd program, I should call it a name a bit difference, what should I call it?
00:06:27 <zzo38> It is already called ngIRCd, I want this one called a bit different, I will release the codes after I implement "ChannelTypes" option (currently it is hard-coded, and that is no good), and maybe "SummonType" and "SummonTimer", and SUMMON CTHULHU command, and possibly other fixes, and a document explaining the new features
00:06:31 <zzo38> I just use it because it is work on Cygwin and on Linux, and it is pure C codes not too many features that I don't need, and that I can modify the C codes to change some things
00:07:26 <zzo38> I use ngIRCd on my own computer. (And you can see the changes, there, too.)
00:07:27 <alise> <pineapple> game theory?
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00:11:12 <alise> titForTat :: Prisoner
00:11:12 <alise> titForTat opp = C : opp
00:11:20 <alise> oerjan: how should titForTwoTats be written? :/
00:11:23 <alise> would be kinda complicated
00:11:28 <alise> since we have to store state in a way
00:13:56 <alise> if the other player defects, T42T (tit for two tats) still cooperates
00:14:00 <alise> but if the other player then defects again
00:14:03 <alise> making it twice in a row
00:14:24 <alise> (note that if there is a cooperate in between two defects T42T still cooperates, it's only two in a row)
00:18:25 <alise> malcontentC :: Prisoner
00:18:26 <alise> malcontentC opp = C : map other opp where other C = D; other D = C
00:18:26 <alise> malcontentD :: Prisoner
00:18:26 <alise> malcontentD opp = D : map other opp where other C = D; other D = C
00:18:40 <alise> both do amusingly well against tit for tat :P
00:19:32 <zzo38> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use regular expressions." Now they have two problems.
00:19:37 <zzo38> Some people, in an effort to sound intelligent, quote other people. Now they look retarded.
00:19:47 <zzo38> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I'm going to grab a sandwich." Now they have two problems because the sandwich is poisoned.
00:19:51 <alise> they both draw with themselves, but malcontentD kicks malcontentC's ass
00:20:01 <zzo38> Some people, when, now they have, a problem.
00:20:11 <alise> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "Some people, when confronted with a problem, think 'Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "Stack overflow.
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00:21:04 <alise> so, anyone want to submit haskell iterated prisoner's dilemma players? :P
00:21:19 <alise> as a lambda expression; you get a list of Actions and return a list of Actions; Action = C | D
00:21:30 <alise> you can use recursion with fix, that is permissable
00:21:42 <alise> always cooperates: fix (\r -> C:r)
00:21:47 <alise> always defects: fix (\r -> D:r)
00:21:53 <alise> tit for tat: (\opp -> C:opp)
00:22:04 <zzo38> Have you played a game "Elemental Solitaire"? It has four elements (the four suits of the cards), but I want to figure out a way to make it work with five elements, do you know?
00:22:54 <alise> coppro: BUT HAVE YOU PLAYED ITERATED PRISONER'S DILEMMA ...IN HASKELL
00:23:12 <zzo38> http://quidjfravzgembtchowlkspynx.com/elemental/help.htm That's the Elemental solitaire rules
00:23:25 <coppro> better challenge: calculate the odds that a game of Aces Up is winnable
00:24:37 <alise> coppro: you're dumb
00:24:45 <AnMaster> <zzo38> It is already called ngIRCd, I want this one called a bit different, I will release the codes after I implement "ChannelTypes" option (currently it is hard-coded, and that is no good), and maybe "SummonType" and "SummonTimer", and SUMMON CTHULHU command, and possibly other fixes, and a document explaining the new features <-- what do you mean channel types?
00:24:54 <alise> AnMaster: # + & etc
00:25:06 <AnMaster> but only ircnet uses it basically
00:25:07 <alise> zzo38 uses only + channels, modeless
00:25:10 <zzo38> Yes, # + & and so on. (ngIRCd does not support ! type channels)
00:25:46 <AnMaster> zzo38, so, why is it being hard coded an issue? isn't the logic for in which ways they differ going to have to be hard coded anyway
00:25:58 <AnMaster> zzo38, either that or loading dynamically linked modules
00:25:58 <alise> someone register jackdawslovemybigsphinxofquartz.org
00:26:00 <zzo38> No, I mean which channel types are available to be used.
00:26:03 <AnMaster> or *shudder* a scripting language
00:26:07 <alise> "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog."
00:26:40 <zzo38> So, if you set ChannelTypes=#&+ then all three channel types are available, which would be the default.
00:27:06 <zzo38> (When ! type channels are supported, the default will be #&!+ instead)
00:29:33 <coppro> on an unrelated note, holy shit I just won a game of Aces Up
00:29:48 <zzo38> coppro: With real cards or by computer?
00:30:11 <coppro> I've won 2 cardboard, 1 data games
00:30:19 <zzo38> coppro: Is using PySolFC?
00:30:32 <coppro> no automatic assistance
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00:31:07 <zzo38> In PySolFC you can turn off automatic assistance for any game. PySolFC is slow to start up, however.
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00:40:35 <alise> I'm not a damn fool who would waste my money on such things!
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00:42:47 <name_> Navigating dual screens with mouse keys is so tedious...
00:43:11 <alise> I suggest either abandoning dual screens or BUYING A MOUSE.
00:43:31 <name_> my mouse stopped working yesterday
00:43:43 <name_> haven't bought a new one yet >.<
00:49:52 <AnMaster> <name_> Navigating dual screens with mouse keys is so tedious... <-- same goes for mouse keys on ONE screen
00:50:08 <AnMaster> alise, I want a model M with a track point
00:50:16 <alise> AnMaster: they exist.
00:50:25 <alise> they have existed for a long time
00:50:28 <alise> both by ibm, and unicomp
00:50:41 <alise> apparently they're not quite as good as real trackpoints, but meh
00:50:42 <AnMaster> alise, terminal edition? I want F24!
00:50:58 <alise> http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104wh.html the unicomp nipple model
00:51:08 <alise> AnMaster: ibm made pretty much every keyboard ever with a trackpoint
00:51:11 <alise> and a bad trackball
00:51:24 <AnMaster> alise, I want a good trackpoint though
00:51:36 <alise> the endurapro's is good, apparently.
00:51:43 <AnMaster> they have better acceleration characteristics than older thinkpads
00:51:50 <AnMaster> one of the things lenovo did right
00:52:50 <AnMaster> alise, okay, now I want a space cadet keyboard with a trackpoint ;P
00:53:17 <alise> which ones are those again
00:54:26 <alise> just buy a lisp machine
00:54:33 <alise> $600 or so for a vintage model (but still unused)
00:54:36 <alise> up to like $1200 iirc
00:55:04 <AnMaster> space cadet + track point + dvorak = big win
00:56:23 <cheater99> is there a language which has logic literals of 'Yes' and 'No' as opposed to the boring True/False?
00:56:33 <alise> just in the query output though
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01:05:51 <oerjan> data Cool = Yes | No deriving (Show, Read, Enum, Bounded)
01:06:18 <oerjan> data Cool = No | Yes deriving (Show, Read, Enum, Bounded)
01:08:10 <alise> oerjan: WRITE A PRISONER
01:12:25 <oerjan> prisoner g p l = zipWith tweak (C:l) (randoms g) where tweak opp x | x > p = x; tweak C _ = D; tweak D _ = C
01:13:09 <alise> prisoner is [Action] -> [Action]
01:13:31 <alise> oerjan: to be what
01:14:01 <oerjan> g :: StdGen; p :: Double (preferrably slightly > 0)
01:14:06 <alise> also randoms doesn't seem to be in prelude...
01:14:55 <alise> what is this strategy exactly?
01:15:02 <alise> is it tit-for-tat-except-maybe-kind-in-face-of-D?
01:15:25 <oerjan> yes + maybe-defect-in-face-of-C
01:15:32 <alise> Couldn't match expected type `Double'
01:15:32 <alise> against inferred type `Action'
01:15:32 <alise> In the expression: D
01:15:32 <alise> In the definition of `tweak': tweak C _ = D
01:16:00 <oerjan> *prisoner g p l = zipWith tweak (C:l) (randoms g) where tweak opp x | x > p = opp; tweak C _ = D; tweak D _ = C
01:16:57 <alise> mind if I call it indecisive?
01:17:00 <alise> or unsure, which do you think is better
01:17:04 <oerjan> (what do you MEAN i should test things?)
01:17:15 <alise> also what's the thing to create a stdgen from an int?
01:18:17 <alise> p should be infinitesimal?
01:18:50 <alise> oerjan: & shouldn't it be Rational, not Double, really?
01:18:53 <alise> or does stdgen not do rational...
01:18:57 <oerjan> somewhere around 1/no. tries?
01:19:06 <oerjan> i don't think there's a Rational instance
01:19:16 <Sgeo_> alise, what do you know about PBF?
01:20:24 <alise> Sgeo_: a bit; why?
01:20:46 <Sgeo_> I wanted you to say something about the author stopping
01:20:57 <alise> Sgeo_: it's not stopped, just on a severely reduced schedule.
01:21:05 <alise> oerjan: i don't think you get to introspect the number of tries :P
01:21:19 <alise> *Main> result 10 titForTat (fickle (mkStdGen 42) (1/10))
01:21:19 <alise> *Main> result 100 titForTarce code?
03:26:34 <fungot> coppro: it did. it was published
03:26:42 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
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03:27:38 <name_> That beard is awesome, but impractical.
03:28:14 <cheater99> alise, ok jus thot u mite b a bit slpy
03:28:25 <alise> cheater99: Please die.
03:29:29 <alise> I'd sleep, but on the other hand that would result in me not being on this thing until Friday, so if I can prolong it a bit longer I might as well. Hmm, how long until I have to be up. Six hours.
03:30:04 <name_> Forget sleeping then. It is what I am doing.
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03:40:58 <alise> this thing = computer
03:41:06 <alise> until friday = if you don't know, then you haven't been paying attention.
03:41:22 <alise> actually if you could all make it a running gag not to tell cheater99 while i'm gone that would be gerat.
03:43:08 <cheater99> ok so you mean that place you're goin' to
03:44:43 <alise> You do realise you're incredibly irritating?
03:44:57 <alise> I mean, and I'm saying that; I'm probably the most irritating person here. Well, second most.
03:45:37 <alise> "It's still dark outside, so of course I won't sleep."
03:51:55 <alise> Well, that doesn't stop you being irritating.
03:52:53 <alise> Because it doesn't.
03:56:03 <cheater99> why are you saying i am irritating
04:06:55 <alise> 4:06; ok, really soon.
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04:28:19 <zzo38> Do you know now how I could make Elemental solitaire with five elements, somehow?
04:28:24 <zzo38> Do you have any ideas?
04:30:09 <Sgeo_> What does Elemental Solitaire with four elements look like?
04:32:33 <augur> anyone have a passing interest in logic?
04:32:50 <zzo38> The elements are the four suits of cards. There is a 4x4 grid with the corners cut off, there is 12 piles 4 card each, and 4 spares.
04:33:20 * Sgeo_ has a bit of a headache due to dealing with his step-mother :(
04:33:41 <zzo38> There is rules about geometry, are "blocks" (2x2 area of 4 piles), "crosses" (one card on each point of the cross, and inside is the center area), "extremities"
04:34:02 <zzo38> And then you win once all cards are removed according to blocks of 4 cards all different suit.
04:37:43 <zzo38> I thought of another idea in ngIRCd, the configuration for each remote server should also have a "ChannelTypes" option, to set which channel types are allowed to be forwarded/checked on another server (for example, irc.barton.de supports #&+ but irc.farlight.eu supports # only) (& type should never be forwarded, so the default should be #+ (or #!+ if ! type is implemented))
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04:38:32 <zzo38> Here is an example of what can go wrong:
04:38:45 <zzo38> :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :+test
04:38:49 <zzo38> :irc.bit.netz 353 zzo38 = +test :zzo38
04:38:54 <zzo38> :irc.bit.netz 366 zzo38 +test :End of NAMES list
04:38:58 <zzo38> :irc.farlight.eu 403 zzo38 +test :No such channel
04:43:13 <zzo38> I think the router should be configured using FTP, using any other protocol is not as good, in my opinion
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06:12:39 <myndzi> servers in the same network shouldn't operate with different option sets anyway
06:12:51 <myndzi> also +channels are the most useless thing ever
06:13:34 <myndzi> +chans are a modeless global channel
06:13:41 <myndzi> i never did understand the point
06:14:50 <myndzi> more like get flooded and can't protect yourself
06:15:00 <myndzi> modeless means no +n, too
06:21:12 <myndzi> whoops, wrong channel, you don't care about my tetris!
06:22:45 <Sgeo_> If it's turing-complete, we do
06:24:56 <coppro> sadly, Sgeo_'s probably right
06:25:26 <coppro> we'd care about a turing-complete pencil
06:28:06 <Sgeo_> What's the most powerful a language that only had one way to accomplish any task could be?
06:28:42 <coppro> depends on what your definition of "one way to accomplish any task" is
06:37:03 <zzo38> myndzi: Actually, modeless means the mode is fixed at +nt
06:38:07 <zzo38> I don't know if a language with only one way to accomplish a task could be turing-complete
06:39:29 <Sgeo_> zzo38, it wouldn't be
06:40:58 <zzo38> It probably cannot possibly be turing-complete!
06:41:13 <coppro> if you define "only one way to accomplish a task" as being something like "exactly one input per output", then it cannot possibly be turing-complete
06:41:17 <zzo38> Unless you change the question somewhat, then perhaps there might be some way
06:43:18 <zzo38> And the reason the servers in the same network do not all support the same channel types is because irc.farlight.eu is running a old version of ngIRCd (I checked)
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08:32:25 <jabb> ironing out inconsistencies is a pain
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12:01:20 <ais523> hmm, I seem to be trying to middle-click by holding down one left mouse button and pressing a different left mouse button
12:01:25 <ais523> the dangers of trackpads...
12:01:34 <ais523> (what I /meant/ to try to do was control-click)
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12:33:26 <ais523> gah, leftclick/leftclick again
12:33:30 <ais523> and it isn't a lol apple, this is a PC
12:33:33 <ais523> and has a rightclick too
12:33:41 <ais523> it's just, the trackpad doesn't have a middle button
12:33:51 <ais523> so I have to control-click, or both-click, instead
12:34:11 <ais523> both-clicking's really hard, and for some reason I keep using both left mouse buttons (the one on the trackpad and the one below) rather than control-clicking
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12:41:01 <CakeProphet> I kind of feel like devising an abstract algebra.
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12:51:46 <oerjan> <alise> You do realise you're incredibly irritating?
12:52:02 <oerjan> you do realise you're incredibly irritable? (then, so am i)
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12:55:50 <oerjan> `addquote <coppro> we'd care about a turing-complete pencil
12:55:50 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
12:56:25 -!- oerjan has set topic: <coppro> we'd care about a turing-complete pencil | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
12:56:50 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
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12:59:39 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> I kind of feel like devising an abstract algebra.
12:59:59 <oerjan> they've all been invented already. probably. well, the simple ones.
13:00:19 * oerjan was reading about medial magmas/groupoids recently
13:01:13 <oerjan> one operator (call it *), fundamental equation: (a*b)*(c*d) = (a*c)*(b*d)
13:02:45 <oerjan> surprisingly, there are interesting consequences. if * is surjective, then it's essentially a kind of linear function, and all linear functions of two variables have this property.
13:03:00 <ais523> two newsgroups which probably have more of an overlap than they ought to
13:03:11 <ais523> but a post on rgrn is not surprising, and a post on ali is
13:03:19 <ais523> it was asking about how to implement the factory and singleton patterns in INTERCAL
13:03:24 <oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.)
13:03:47 <Deewiant> ais523: What kind of an overlap?
13:04:10 <ais523> Deewiant: well, anything other than the null set, given that by rights a.l.i's readership /should/ be the null set
13:04:26 <oerjan> ais523: rec.games.something?
13:04:35 <ais523> rec.games.roguelike.nethack
13:05:03 <Deewiant> Are you sure the overlap /isn't/ the null set?
13:05:22 <oerjan> Deewiant: ais523 is on both, obviously...
13:05:47 <Deewiant> Ah, I was thinking of only posts as overlaps
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13:05:59 <ais523> and the number of NetHack players who are aware of INTERCAL is actually large enough that I don't know the number offhand
13:06:05 <ais523> although I'm not sure how many of them also use Usenet
13:06:11 <ais523> Deewiant: I've posted to both
13:06:27 <ais523> no, I can't think of a way to crosspost that wouldn't be trolling
13:06:34 <ais523> unless and until I manage to port NetHack to INTERCAL
13:06:39 <Deewiant> Right. That's the kind of overlap I was thinking of
13:06:40 <ais523> which likely won't happen for years
13:06:54 <ais523> jamesstanley: I'm not entirely sure if the vice versa makes sense
13:06:55 <Deewiant> Or that first came to mind given newsgroup overlap
13:07:03 <jamesstanley> implementing intercal in nethack? of course it does
13:07:03 <ais523> NetHack is not Dwarf Fortress, after all
13:07:16 <ais523> I don't think NetHack is TC, or even usable for programming
13:07:29 <jamesstanley> you might be able to manipulate monster ai for turing completeness
13:08:20 <ais523> Deewiant: and TC if generalised to an infinite plane
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13:35:00 <CakeProphet> I want to make bitchin' mathematic programming language.
13:35:13 <CakeProphet> with all the usual bitchin' mathematical things.
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14:54:18 <uorygl> CakeProphet: make a programming language where you literally do write the question instead of the answer.
14:55:21 <uorygl> IsPrime x = NotExists (\y -> 0 < y && y < x && x `mod` y == 0)
14:55:38 <uorygl> Er, `Mod`, since we're using my silly convention.
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15:15:58 <Deewiant> uorygl: Been done, the result was Prolog
15:17:18 <uorygl> I don't think Prolog is very powerful.
15:17:45 <uorygl> (Which is a tentative conclusion, not an opinion.)
15:20:26 * CakeProphet is still designing a tree language. getting closer to finish.
15:21:39 <CakeProphet> technically a graph language... for control flow.
15:21:46 <uorygl> Finnish is the best language for trees to speak.
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15:35:19 <uorygl> Looks like #esoteric is still the most Finnish channel I have. :P
15:35:30 <uorygl> So, terve, mitä kuuluu?
15:35:41 <CakeProphet> node-data { inner-node-data ; inner-node-data}
15:36:06 <CakeProphet> { creates a new child node at the current node... ; creates a new sibling
15:36:41 <CakeProphet> {1;2;3;4;5;6} to represent a simple list 4{ 2; 4 {1;2;3}} for trees
15:37:21 <CakeProphet> ...I might change ; to , ...no need to type shift all the time
15:37:50 <CakeProphet> and ( can just be ) actually just use spaces instead of , HOLY SHIT ITS TREE-LISP
15:38:29 <uorygl> Hey, you're using a keyboard layout in which you need to press shift to type ;.
15:39:47 <CakeProphet> actually spaces don't sit well with me for this syntax... since each branch node can have its own atom as well as a child list.
15:40:03 <CakeProphet> so whitespace independence would be nice to allow any kind of structuring.
15:43:05 <CakeProphet> use a different bracket style for implicit !age
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16:20:31 <AnMaster> <uorygl> Finnish is the best language for trees to speak. <-- yeah but it is unfit for a human mouth ;P
16:20:49 <AnMaster> though, to be fair, Icelandic seems worse
16:21:45 <uorygl> Yeah, I've heard that Icelandic is really difficult.
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16:31:20 <uorygl> Huh, Icelandic is a West Scandinavian language.
16:32:44 <uorygl> Wow, Icelandic does have quite the array of consonants.
16:32:57 <uorygl> The vowels aren't too bad.
16:33:33 <uorygl> Hm, Czech's consonants look pretty manageable.
16:34:08 <uorygl> Icelandic's consonants look only somewhat manageable.
16:35:17 <uorygl> Well, it has a bunch of consonants that I can't even name.
16:35:49 <uorygl> Though, actually, I guess that little ring thingy just means "voiceless".
16:36:26 <uorygl> Okay, now Icelandic looks very manageable.
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16:40:55 <fizzie> gucharmap's character info screen for U+037C CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER OMEGA WITH TITLO: "Notes: despite its name, this character does not have a titlo, nor is it composed of an omega plus a diacritic".
16:44:06 <uorygl> That's because U+037C is GREEK SMALL DOTTED LUNATE SIGMA SYMBOL.
16:44:33 <fizzie> U+047C is what I meant to write.
16:45:05 <uorygl> Well, that sure looks like an omega with a titlo.
16:46:41 <fizzie> At least in my font Ѽ is rendered as a rather silly wide omegay thing, and then two other diacritics (combining cyrillic palatalization, combining cyrillirc psili pneumata; I have no idea what they're for) instead of the ҃ titlo one.
16:47:31 <uorygl> Hm, it seems that in all my fonts as well as fileformat.info, it is displayed as an omega with a titlo.
16:47:57 <fizzie> With that sort of name...
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16:48:29 <uorygl> Mmkay, I think this is the official definition of U+047C:
16:48:38 <fizzie> http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0400.pdf has it close to what I see in gucharmap.
16:48:54 <fizzie> (It also has the same note.)
16:49:12 <uorygl> = Cyrillic "beautiful omega". * despite its name, this character does not have a titlo, nor is it composed of an omega plus a diacritic. -> A64C Ꙍ cyrillic capital letter broad omega
16:54:35 <AnMaster> I just realised that the OS I use on my RCX is in many respects way more advanced than DOS. For example it does multiple threads (cooperative multitasking due to preemptive (as it used to be) having a rather annoyingly large overhead)
16:55:31 <AnMaster> and it has POSIX-like semaphores, stripped to the core features, but stilll
16:57:23 * uorygl downloads the Unicode Standard.
17:00:29 <uorygl> Apparently, it's a 686-page PDF document.
17:02:18 <uorygl> Heh, look at what U+FE18 is called.
17:02:38 <uorygl> "PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET", to be precise.
17:07:02 <fizzie> Hrm, my private use area according to gucharmap is full of stuff (since it picks characters from any font that has 'em); there's the Linux penguin, some sort of random bat, a sword-like diagonal arrow, someone's face, a whole pile of outlined symbols, sub- and superscripts for all cyrillic characters, etc.
17:08:06 <uorygl> Gregor, why is your face in fizzie's Unicode?
17:08:25 <fizzie> If it's Gregor's face, he looks pretty girly.
17:08:45 <uorygl> He does look pretty girly!
17:09:49 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/face.png -- this girly?
17:10:06 <uorygl> Hm, no, not quite that girly.
17:10:29 * uorygl begins poking around zem.fi.
17:10:37 <fizzie> There's not much there.
17:10:40 <uorygl> I want a three-letter Finnish domain name.
17:11:00 <fizzie> (At least officially) you need to be Finnish, then.
17:11:13 <fizzie> Or a corporation with an office here, or some-such.
17:11:23 <uorygl> I will move to Finland, then.
17:15:44 <uorygl> Hm, domain names like "www.okie.fi" look really lopsided.
17:16:11 * uorygl joins the Suomen nowwwpuolue.
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17:24:16 <AnMaster> <uorygl> "PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET", to be precise. <-- what?
17:24:26 <uorygl> That's the name of a Unicode character.
17:24:42 <AnMaster> uorygl, "white"? I didn't know unicode had colour info...
17:24:53 <AnMaster> it doesn't make sense for it to have that
17:25:06 <uorygl> Well, I imagine it's "white" in the sense of "the same color as the background".
17:25:26 <AnMaster> uorygl, so, it is a strange name for a space? ;P
17:25:49 <AnMaster> hm should be called "outlined" or such then
17:28:44 <uorygl> Let's see, I know enough Finnish to sort of ask a simple question.
17:30:22 <uorygl> I'm sure that was close enough. :P
17:30:45 <uorygl> Maybe it wasn't close enough. :P
17:31:17 <uorygl> My intended meaning was "Are you Finnish?"
17:31:37 <uorygl> (Though I would be quite surprised if e turned out not to be.)
17:31:46 <Deewiant> Also, lacks the interrogative suffix on the "olet" to be completely correct for even that ;-P
17:32:02 <uorygl> Interrogative suffix? Huh.
17:32:06 <Deewiant> But, in colloquial speech it's often dropped
17:32:29 <fizzie> Yes, it should be "oletko" to make it a question; with just "olet" it's a statement: "you are Finnish".
17:32:42 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_grammar#Interrogatives_.28questions.29
17:32:44 <uorygl> A statement with a question mark at the end. :)
17:32:58 <uorygl> And apparently "Suomen" wasn't quite the right word either.
17:33:30 <fizzie> Isn't it "suomalainen"? I don't think we capitalize it when it's a nationality or a language.
17:33:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Modulo letter order, yes.
17:34:28 <uorygl> Suomalainen. I should probably make note of that.
17:35:25 <Deewiant> x-lainen (/x-läinen) ~= from x
17:35:36 <fizzie> The non-capitalization exception is something I don't much like.
17:36:20 <uorygl> I like not capitalizing stuff!
17:36:59 <fizzie> It's just that we capitalize countries (like "Suomi") but not languages (which would be "suomi").
17:37:28 <fizzie> There's also the verb "suomia": to whip, lash, (figuratively) scold.
17:37:53 <fizzie> (Of which "suomi" would be the third-person singular past tense case.
17:38:20 <uorygl> What's the Finnish word for "whiplash"? :P
17:38:38 <Deewiant> For the literal lash of a whip, piiskanisku
17:38:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: Perhaps. fi.wiktionary says "(murteellinen?) suomustaa; etymologinen perusta edelliselle??" but those multiple question marks make me a bit unsure.
17:39:40 <uorygl> Unfortunately, I can't really tell which word is which in that sentence.
17:40:15 <uorygl> Mmkay, Wiktionary says that "rakastaa" takes the partitive.
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17:40:43 <uorygl> I wonder why it does that. :P
17:40:56 <Deewiant> To be more precise, "suomi" is the third-person singular preterite active indicative of "suomia"
17:42:50 * uorygl looks up the Finnish word for "thinks".
17:43:30 <uorygl> That doesn't have anything to do with philately, does it.
17:43:40 <AnMaster> ais523, wtf at that recent message on a.l.i
17:44:18 <uorygl> "I loved you in a day." "I loved you for a day."
17:44:30 <ais523> did you follow the link?
17:44:50 <AnMaster> ais523, even more wtf from those
17:45:03 <uorygl> Hm, it sort of looks like "ajatella" is conjugated as if it were "ajattelea".
17:45:52 <AnMaster> ais523, well the link that is, your response wasn't very wtf
17:47:06 <AnMaster> ais523, but I think you missed a comma in one place
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17:47:36 <ais523> Deewiant: alt.lang.intercal
17:47:44 <AnMaster> well, I'm having problems parsing "[...]; those who have tried to imply the way I think from the way I write code, possibly a null set, would know that I consider multithreading the answer to more or less every problem INTERCAL offers"
17:47:55 <ais523> AnMaster: I can parse that just fine
17:48:35 <Deewiant> Although that "possibly a null set" is a bit confusingly placed. But I'm not sure if there's a better place.
17:48:56 <ais523> meh, I was thinking INTERCAL, so long as it's theoretically grammatically correct it's fine
17:49:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I presume he means that "those who have tried to imply" is a null set
17:49:17 <uorygl> AnMaster: yeah, that was difficult to parse.
17:49:28 <uorygl> I suspect that by "imply" he means "infer".
17:49:44 <AnMaster> uorygl, ah, okay that makes a quite a lot more sense
17:49:47 <ais523> meh, it's more fun for me to attribute other people to attribute motives to me
17:50:05 <uorygl> I find it strange that people get "imply" and "infer" mixed up. Don't they mean totally different things?
17:50:31 <AnMaster> but yeah quite different afaik
17:50:37 <uorygl> Implying is saying something indirectly, or having something as a conclusion. Inferring is coming to a conclusion.
17:50:52 <uorygl> Yeah, I guess they're both I5 verbs. :)
17:51:39 <ais523> start with I and have 5 letters
17:52:17 <AnMaster> anyway, I kind of can't see how you could mix up their meaning
17:52:49 <ais523> it's almost an opposite meaning
17:52:51 <AnMaster> ais523, "[...] and multiple COME FROM having too much [state]"?
17:53:15 <ais523> AnMaster: it's an INTERCAL thing
17:53:18 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you mean too much state?
17:53:39 <ais523> AnMaster: no shared state
17:53:48 <ais523> all shared state is global, you can't share pairwise
17:54:04 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, creating statements on demand, does that imply JITing?
17:54:10 <uorygl> Wait, why does "ajatella" have thirteen synonyms?
17:54:33 <ais523> AnMaster: no, think of it more like thunks
17:55:09 <uorygl> Well, I guess it's transitive.
17:55:11 <Deewiant> According to Wiktionary, anyways
17:55:28 <AnMaster> ais523, um? was ages ago I heard about "thunks" last, and it was something related to windows 3.1 iirc
17:55:29 <uorygl> I count thirteen, not counting "ajatella" itself.
17:55:36 <AnMaster> so I have no clue what you meant there
17:55:51 <ais523> AnMaster: closures with no params
17:55:53 <Deewiant> And at least most of the Finnish ones are just different forms of each other
17:56:17 <Deewiant> ajatella/aatella, fundeerata/funtsata/funtsia, pohtia/pohdiskella, pähkiä/pähkäillä, tuumailla/tuumata/tuumia/tuumiskella
17:56:51 <uorygl> Huh. So that makes more like five.
17:56:55 <Deewiant> That list is missing "puntaroida"
17:57:30 <Deewiant> But they don't include "harkita" either so maybe that's intentional
17:58:11 <Deewiant> Nah, it's probably intentional
17:58:47 <Deewiant> Although "pähkäillä" probably shouldn't be there either if that's the case... but whatever
17:58:53 <AnMaster> ais523, btw you should write a C->INTERCAL compiler
17:59:08 <uorygl> What do you think the reason is?
17:59:20 <AnMaster> ais523, after you finish feather and gcc-bf that is ;P
18:00:21 <Deewiant> uorygl: Well, it's sort of "think" versus "consider"
18:01:04 <Deewiant> ("consider" as in "mull over", can't think of a better synonym)
18:02:55 <uorygl> Drat, Wiktionary doesn't list the declension of "aihe".
18:04:37 <Deewiant> This type, I think: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Finnish_declension_types/hame
18:05:38 <uorygl> So the partitive singular is "aihetta"?
18:09:49 <Deewiant> I think "ajatella" is more "think of" than "think about", actually
18:10:10 <Deewiant> Or, well, I'm pretty sure it's /more/ that but it might still be both
18:10:54 * uorygl ajattelee seuraavaa aihetta?
18:13:48 <Deewiant> Maybe it's just that I don't like using "ajatella" with "aihe" for some reason
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18:17:16 <Deewiant> Not sure if that's wrong or if it just sounds wrong :-P
18:17:46 <uorygl> "Elämä on hyvä" sounds wrong, too?
18:18:00 <Deewiant> It sounds wrong but it could just be because it's the obvious anglicism
18:18:16 <Deewiant> It's not something anybody would ever say
18:18:33 <uorygl> Except for beginning speakers of Finnish, I guess!
18:18:45 <Deewiant> That's not in my definition of "anybody"
18:18:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I have been asked to build a robot with Mindstorms for "work" "experience".
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18:28:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Ultimately it has to be able to take commands to navigate through a maze from Bluetooth.
18:30:29 <uorygl> Well, from what little I've learned so far of Finnish, I'm struck by how similar it is to English.
18:32:24 <uorygl> It has more or less the same parts of speech, and the words go in more or less the same order.
18:32:36 <Deewiant> The word order is more or less arbitrary
18:34:26 <Deewiant> Not really the case in English :-P
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18:36:11 <uorygl> Of course, I can also use Spanish as a point of comparison.
18:38:12 <uorygl> As far as language evolution goes, English and Spanish are of course more closely related than either is to Finnish.
18:38:30 <uorygl> But as far as grammar goes, all three seem pretty similar.
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19:57:40 <Deewiant> @Override protected void map(LongWritable l, Text t, Mapper<LongWritable,Text, LongWritable,Text>.Context context) throws IOException, InterruptedException {
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19:58:45 <Deewiant> It's the equivalent of 'map =' in Haskell
19:59:19 <Deewiant> That's a method definition minus a body and closing }
19:59:45 <augur> Deewiant: what's 'map =' do?
19:59:59 <Deewiant> It's a function definition minus a body
20:01:13 <fizzie> That was Hadoop, not Java; but Java things in general do seem to end up looking like that, it's true.
20:02:08 <fizzie> Well, yes, but Java is not Hadoop.
20:02:33 <fizzie> You can't just pick the interface of a single... I guess they call it a "framework", and say all Java's like that.
20:03:05 <Deewiant> But Java hate was being coaxed so I somewhat-delivered
20:06:21 <fizzie> It is reasonably representative of Java, I guess. The officially-part-of-the-language library isn't much less verbosity-demanding.
20:06:55 <fizzie> AffineTransformOp op = new AffineTransformOp(AffineTransform.getScaleInstance(scaleX, scaleY), AffineTransformOp.TYPE_BILINEAR);
20:08:46 <fizzie> ColorModel cm = base.getColorModel(); BufferedImage composite = new BufferedImage(cm, base.copyData(cm.createCompatibleWritableRaster(w, h)), cm.isAlphaPremultiplied(), null); composite.createGraphics().drawImage(tile, op, 0, 0);
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20:08:57 <fizzie> They do like long names there.
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20:40:01 <oerjan> <uorygl> Hm, Czech's consonants look pretty manageable. <-- until you realize some of them (r,l) are also used as vowels. also, r-hacek.
20:41:24 <oerjan> (the latter being a sound existing _only_ in czech)
20:43:03 <oerjan> (it was listed (may still be) in guinness book of records as the world's rarest sound.
20:43:40 <oerjan> (although i've learned the swedish sje-sound is also only in one language, there might be others for what i know)
20:44:14 <oerjan> (the swedish sje-sound is much simpler to pronounce though, imo)
20:44:33 <oerjan> Deewiant: cz:vlk = en:wolf, for example
20:45:06 <Deewiant> Sure, there are vowelless words, but how does that make those "used as vowels"?
20:45:26 <uorygl> Well, used as syllable nuclei.
20:45:33 <oerjan> there are some famous tongue-twisters which my non-unicode clean irc setup cannot manage
20:45:59 <Deewiant> Japanese has an n-syllable which I find annoying for no good reason
20:47:05 <Deewiant> But anyway, I don't find that makes them less manageable
20:47:40 <oerjan> anyway, there's _still_ r-hacek >:)
20:48:49 <Deewiant> Yeah, raised alveolar non-sonorant trill
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20:49:47 <Deewiant> I wonder what it means by having the tongue raised when it's alveolar anyway
20:50:20 <oerjan> i think it may be that it's not made with just the tip of the tongue, iirc
20:50:43 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/blog/?p=394
20:50:54 <oerjan> or wait does that make any sense
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20:52:28 <oerjan> augur: darn, i was hoping you were linking to a detailed explanation of how to pronounce r-hacek, there. you _are_ the resident linguist after all.
20:52:33 <Deewiant> augur: Alveolar trill: raised versus non-raised. Discuss!
20:53:28 <augur> my language has no trills natively therefore i have nothing to discuss
20:53:45 <Deewiant> Alveolar x, for any x: raised versus non-raised. Discuss!
21:06:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Don't let the name fool you, this is a linguistics channel | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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21:07:45 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
21:14:13 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
21:14:20 <Sgeo_> Who broke HackEgo?
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21:24:23 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
21:25:07 <oerjan> it's a bit single-minded at the moment
21:25:35 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
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21:31:19 <cpressey> I come to announce Burro 2.0: http://catseye.tc/projects/burro/doc/burro.html
21:31:27 <cpressey> I was hoping scarf would be here, but oh well.
21:31:45 <oerjan> scarf = ais523 these days
21:31:55 <oerjan> but still not here, anyway
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21:35:00 <cpressey> Well, if you see him before I do, let him know that his offhand observation that Burro was broken, resulted in months of work for me fixing it :)
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21:35:15 <cpressey> Not actual full months -- spare-time-months, of course
21:44:20 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Depends -- are you a debt collector? :D
21:44:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I plan to use the Spanish method I heard about from a dubious source.
21:45:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I will wear a silly hat and frock coat, then follow you into restaurants and cafs and point.
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21:57:18 <augur> Q: What's a Haskell programmer's favorite philosophy book
21:57:27 <augur> A: Leibniz's Monadology
22:10:57 <oerjan> idle : 0 days 4 hours 11 mins 22 secs
22:16:33 <oerjan> it's not good to eat too fast, you know :D
22:21:07 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it took 10 minutes to eat ;P
22:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't suppose you know anything about Mindstorms NXT?
22:22:14 <AnMaster> it's 32-bit, CPU is ARM (ARM7 iirc, not sure)
22:22:15 <oerjan> i hear you should use at least 15 minutes or so
22:22:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and the motor has a very awkward shape
22:22:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that is about all
22:22:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what? btw did you see the first panorama?
22:23:10 <oerjan> (otherwise you eat so fast that your fullness feeling doesn't get triggered until you've already overeaten)
22:23:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, you shouldn't be away for several days at a row
22:23:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, go dig logs, links will be at omploader
22:23:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, or day before that
22:23:42 <AnMaster> when I posted images of the construction itself
22:24:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also not being on irc for a long time is a major offence or something ;P
22:24:24 <Phantom_Hoover> If this brakes my computer I will definitely need the soul of your first-born child.
22:24:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, open it in gimp
22:24:52 <oerjan> if it actually _breaks_ it he'll take your whole family
22:25:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yep, the issue was on your side last time too
22:25:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what spelling error?
22:26:41 <AnMaster> I forgot if you used windows or not :P
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