< 1276300929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:06:02 * cpressey bans himself < 1276300929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:06:11 cpressey: bad puns are oerjan's job! < 1276300936 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, banning people. < 1276300967 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION skips the rest of the huge log < 1276301164 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :vuvuzela < 1276302953 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276303610 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1276303683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, waking up at 0:05 sounds like fun to me. I like being awake during the night. <-- not when you need to coordinate with a family < 1276303709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hi there < 1276303773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'lo < 1276304239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, lo as in lo and behold or as in "lo[sic] - not high"? ;P < 1276304288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'lo as an abbreviation of hello. also the latter. < 1276304376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, XD < 1276304480 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'll get your pun detector calibrated yet < 1276305025 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276305995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, XD < 1276306049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw listening to beatles... yellow submarine isn't too bad. The rest is just variations on two themes it seems. "love - happy" and "love - sad" < 1276306276 0 :vuvuzela!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else is there to sing about? < 1276306305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vuvuzela, XD < 1276306322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vuvuzela, well, you could sing about green submarines too? < 1276306419 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1276307037 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1276307580 0 :selckiku!~selckiku@c-98-229-3-244.hsd1.vt.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276307618 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yay! i'd been looking for this channel but i didn't know what it was named. < 1276307640 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been wondering if there are any 2D languages with higher order functions? < 1276307681 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1276307689 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One complaint or annoyance about 2D languages is that you have to worry about which way you're going into a function, right? < 1276307721 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it occured to me you could easily make a higher order function that takes a 2D function and transforms it so that it works the same entered from whatever direction. < 1276307745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276307754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I've been wondering if there are any 2D languages with higher order functions? <-- that would be awesome < 1276307758 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that wouldn't make 2D languages useful, but I thought it might be fun anyway. < 1276307758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :invent one! < 1276307766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there may be, but I don't know of any) < 1276307784 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan to! First I'm looking for prior art, though. < 1276307791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : One complaint or annoyance about 2D languages is that you have to worry about which way you're going into a function, right? <-- hm befunge doesn't even have functions does it? < 1276307793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1276307804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it doesn't except through extensions < 1276307818 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been reading through the 2D languages section on the wiki, and there are some that have functions, but none with higher order functions that I've noticed yet. < 1276307820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even then it could be argued to be more like goto with call stack < 1276307821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(SUBR) < 1276307835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, such as which ones? < 1276307855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mainly know much about befunge (written several interpreters for befunge-98) < 1276307885 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, um, I didn't note which ones had functions, let me see if I can remember... there was one that puts everything in boxes surrounded with ########## and you can have various boxes and use them as functions. < 1276307895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276307900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure which one that would be < 1276307951 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had an idea to make a generic editor/interpreter for this style of ASCII 2D langs, but that's a pretty ambitious project! < 1276307976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, very much so < 1276307997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, I use emacs in picture-mode, allows you to write in any of the cardinal directions plus the diognals < 1276308009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would prefer to have a generic delta < 1276308021 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh yay! i'd been looking for this channel but i didn't know what it was named. <-- (1) you know that _could_ have been the introduction of one of those people who think this channel is about "mystical" stuff (2) it's in the community links on the wiki, but maybe that's where you found it < 1276308024 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just starting with emacs. I've learned a little about artist-mode, but I don't know picture-mode yet. < 1276308043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, anyway about "One complaint or annoyance about 2D languages is that you have to worry about which way you're going into a function, right", it is actually useful for hacks < 1276308055 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well i found a mention of #esoteric somewhere on the wiki and then I did a little more googling to find out it was here on Freenode. < 1276308109 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a thought that you could rationalize the 2Dness of it, by having conventions about what direction means what. Like if code tended to flow downward, that would give some meaning to that direction. < 1276308113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, doesn't artist-mode load picture mode? < 1276308114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1276308116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks that the Community Portal actually mentions it's on freenode < 1276308124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*portal < 1276308133 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1276308137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Portal < 1276308148 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well where i saw it mentioned was just on some random page on the wiki as i was browsing around, someone said that an idea had been discussed on "#esoteric" < 1276308152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, eh? it wasn't typoed in the first place was it? < 1276308176 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the article name and the menu link aren't consistent, was what trapped me < 1276308186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah < 1276308190 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was reading about DOBELA, in particular < 1276308198 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-192-87.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276308200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, isn't irc mostly case insensitive though? < 1276308208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, oh that one... XD < 1276308223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I haven't seen the author for a while < 1276308230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, know what happened to him? < 1276308325 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the 2D languages follow a pretty simple pattern: there's an instruction pointer, there's various data structures like stacks or whatever, and there's a meaning to each ASCII symbol the pointer hits < 1276308334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, isn't DOBELA more of a bully automaton? < 1276308335 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mediawiki isn't case insensitive, except for the first letter < 1276308345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah that is pretty esoteric ;P < 1276308389 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i think it would make sense to write a generic interpreter/editor that understands that basic structure, and then you just need to teach it what each language does for the various symbols < 1276308401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, also, arguably life is a 2D language < 1276308403 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku: your comment about using different directions for different things reminds me of PROLOG, where i think you have 4 different ways of entering/reentering/exiting a predicate < 1276308405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(cell automaton) < 1276308410 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does v in DOBELA distinguish South from the rest? < 1276308422 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, i haven't learned PROLOG, that sounds interesting. < 1276308443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, "to make things work" iirc? < 1276308453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PROLOG isn't 2d though < 1276308468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, prolog isn't even esoteric! < 1276308482 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've heard conflicting opinions on that :D < 1276308484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i saw asiekierka just the other day < 1276308488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah < 1276308500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly just in the logs < 1276308514 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he said he had a new esolang idea < 1276308523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, yeah but then you could argue that haskell or whatever is esoteric too < 1276308526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or scheme < 1276308551 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole field of programming languages is terribly esoteric < 1276308571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not particularly. < 1276308579 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully not usually on purpose. i do wonder sometimes-- there's job security in not letting the general public catch up with you. < 1276308588 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no more so than programming itself. < 1276308598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I found that the best way to learn an esolang is to write an interpreter. You are pretty much bound to learn all the details and undefined corners of it. < 1276308611 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely. < 1276308618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, interpreter *for* it, not *in* it < 1276308623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. < 1276308638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure, a self interpreter should make you learn loads < 1276308645 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1276308660 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh the dobela page says User:asiekierka but it seems he has never actually registered < 1276308669 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the longest program that's been written in an esolang? < 1276308670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, huh < 1276308681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only edited anonymously < 1276308685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, or did he just skip creating user page? < 1276308687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276308687 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276308689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1276308692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, hi! < 1276308695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku: I'm going to go out on a limb and say LostKng. < 1276308708 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there is no "User contributions" link < 1276308716 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that right? if(!fork()) execl(Conf_SummonFile,Conf_SummonFile,Client_Mask(Client),user,server,channel,NULL); < 1276308719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: do you count compiled-to-esolangs? < 1276308727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1276308737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, if so: hello world compiled by gcc-bf < 1276308743 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's gcc-bf. Gah. < 1276308743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it beats lostking easily < 1276308744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1276308752 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not heard of gcc-bf < 1276308759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ais523 wrote it < 1276308763 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what's lostkng? < 1276308764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is buggy and unfinished < 1276308774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, a text adventure in brainfuck < 1276308780 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, LostKng is a text adventure game in Brainfuck. < 1276308796 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that sounds awesome, i guess if i add brainfuck to my search i should find it :) < 1276308797 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About a meg of Brainfuck. < 1276308806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1276308813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get it down to about 400k with a decent compiler. < 1276308825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but even runlength compressed gcc-bf output beats that easily < 1276308835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trivially. < 1276308851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well RLE hello world iirc is slightly smaller than lostkng, but uncompressed... way larger < 1276308853 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't gcc-bf's output include *filesystem emulation* code? < 1276308866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, iirc that was planned but not yet written < 1276308877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I do have the code somewhere around here < 1276308879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1276308952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it includes the whole gcc... well I don't have anywhere I could upload that < 1276309009 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where is gcc-bf? Can it support PSOX? Perhaps it can add a PSOX mode that can be switched on/off? < 1276309029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, no PSOX support so far. As for where: nowhere on the web iirc < 1276309042 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define "PSOX support" < 1276309048 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or was zzo38 pretending to be me? < 1276309075 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, so that fopen() command and such can use PSOX, if it is enabled < 1276309077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, I suspect he means "gcc-bf will generate output using PSOX to implement filesystem functions" < 1276309082 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1276309117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, anyway gcc-bf is _very buggy_ currently. The output is not complete. It generates the asm but the asm->bf bit is not completre < 1276309118 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The filesystem stuff in PSOX is [and will be, unless people care enough to motivate me to start working again] flaky and the spec for that was still in flux < 1276309119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complete* < 1276309143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I could locate and upload it somewhere but I have nowhere with enough space of bandwidth to do it < 1276309161 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is OK you don't have to do that right now. < 1276309163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, what else was PSOX for? < 1276309166 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wanted to know if it was available < 1276309178 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it isn't available, is still OK < 1276309181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well afaik it isn't no. Ask ais523 next time he is around < 1276309182 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's gcc-bf? < 1276309183 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, Internet stuff, and stuff to make things easier < 1276309191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, what stuff easier? < 1276309199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, floating point emulation? < 1276309210 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a brainfuck compiler? < 1276309213 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have two questions: [1] Is this the correct way to use fork() and execl() command in C? [2] Will gcc-bf do anything with codes such as this? < 1276309214 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if(!fork()) execl(Conf_SummonFile,Conf_SummonFile,Client_Mask(Client),user,server,channel,NULL); < 1276309216 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSOX doesn't have a way of dealing with floating point stuff >.> < 1276309227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, gcc-bf? No. It is a C->brainfuck compiler < 1276309234 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some math, some storage. Mostly it's intended for Internet and Filesystem stuff < 1276309241 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And extensions, e.g. a GUI domain < 1276309244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, the best brainfuck compiler currently is esotope-bfc (compiles brainfuck to C) < 1276309245 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be possible < 1276309257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, highly optimising < 1276309265 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What happen if you C->Brainfuck->C < 1276309276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, a very very bloated C program < 1276309281 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next time I'm in front of a development machine, I intend to get back to work on my compiler. Perhaps beat esotope-bfc. < 1276309305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, gcc-bf is very very inefficient < 1276309307 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And what happen if you Brainfuck->C->Brainfuck? < 1276309309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Brainfuck->x86 assembly (Intel format) compiler, in Haskell) < 1276309312 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm it would be interesting if you had compilers that optimized so well that you could make a program more and more efficient by compiling it around to different languages < 1276309320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, a very very inefficient brainfuck program I presume < 1276309350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, unlikely :P < 1276309359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, at least as long as bf is involved < 1276309389 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to go eat < 1276309393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1276309596 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of different stuff for bf! < 1276309615 0 :selckiku!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is bf such a popular language? just history? < 1276309625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know < 1276309628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, intercal is fun too < 1276309640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, there is a fair amount for befunge too < 1276309644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1276309644 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1276309655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selckiku, that bot is witten in befunge-98 < 1276309669 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is 1972-INTERCAL and C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL, and also CLCLC-INTERCAL although CLCLC-INTERCAL is not implemented as far as I can tell < 1276309694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what is CLCLC? < 1276309699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, and who made it? < 1276309708 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look on wiki [[CLCLC-INTERCAL]] page. < 1276309744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, don't have browser running atm. Rendering heavy images atm, so computer is highly loaded, don't want to start browser < 1276309774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, how are you today? < 1276309774 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how come nobody has built one? < 1276309776 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLCLC-INTERCAL is a variation on CLC-INTERCAL, just like CLC-INTERCAL is variation on C-INTERCAL and 1972 INTERCAL. < 1276309777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1276309777 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1276309779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276309793 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has Quantum INTERCAL but differently than CLC-INTERCAL < 1276309800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, who made CLCLC? < 1276309808 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And vector INTERCAL < 1276309817 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And UTF-INT < 1276309828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vector INTERCAL? UTF-INT? < 1276309833 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And back-tracking and also front-tracking < 1276309851 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And name-spaces, and functional INTERCAL < 1276309859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, okay wtf is front tracking? < 1276309873 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what front-tracking is. < 1276309877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276309916 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, CLCLC-INTERCAL Quantum mode is *real* Quantum INTERCAL, rather than the way that CLC-INTERCAL does it < 1276309947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1276310053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: evidence points to zzo38 :D < 1276310064 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The current choicepoint for back-tracking is stored in a register, and the stashing stack for it corresponds to the choicepoint stack < 1276310095 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to use EBCDIC for the CREATE command, instead of using ASCII numbers. < 1276310154 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently this is supposed to be a valid command: MAYBE DO NOT COME FROM CHOICE < 1276310181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah < 1276310190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, if so he should know what front tracking is! < 1276310193 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so is this: (#33 NAME #5) PLEASE COME FROM #34 NAME '#0 NAME ,1 SUB #1' < 1276310195 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i am adding you as the author of CLCLC-INTERCAL, unless you wish to deny it, the page itself did not mention it < 1276310213 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, I did write that page. But even some things in there I made up without knowing what it is < 1276310218 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh :D < 1276310501 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLCLC-INTERCAL also allows FOWER in place of FOUR and FIFE in place of FIVE (in addition to NINER in place of NINE), because these are the ways that are supposed to be standard for air traffic control (although FOWER and FIFE are actually rarely used in air traffic control). < 1276310556 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276310571 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's alise? < 1276310597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, niner is standard, but fower or fife I never heard < 1276310599 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiding from all the paparazzis coming here < 1276310622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I happen to me a flightsim nerd so ;P < 1276310671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going to try to sleep or something < 1276310676 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You have not heard FOWER or FIFE because they are never actually used, even though they are supposed to be standard. If you do air traffic control, you will have to learn them even if you never use them < 1276310692 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know because my father used to do air traffic control and he told me these things < 1276310874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, heh < 1276311315 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have almost fixed the SUMMON CTHULHU command, I just need one more question: What kind of typewriter do you have, is it manual or is it electric? < 1276311456 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if it runs on the blood of orphans? < 1276311514 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it needs to run on the typewriters! < 1276311544 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant the typewriter DUH < 1276311563 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot mention cthulhu in the same line and not consider such options :D < 1276311574 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the typewriter needs to run either by manual or by electric! < 1276311595 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is valid if you want to put blood in the place of ink, you can do that with my blood after I am dead < 1276311601 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276311666 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: And I think you misinterpreted my statement, I meant the other other *other* Cthulhu, the one that the "u" at the end is not supposed to be the letter "u", but is actually supposed to be a different letter in a language nobody has ever seen before < 1276311780 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, it is valid to use blood in place of ink, but only if that does not cause the typewriter to get jammed < 1276311853 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O KAY < 1276311877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sidles away carefully < 1276311932 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please tell me what typewriter?! (IBM Selectric is best) < 1276311997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks he may have a manual one stored away, unless it was thrown away < 1276312010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what brand < 1276312023 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever used it? < 1276312037 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, when i was a child < 1276312069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's what i learned to type on, or so i think < 1276312180 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was at school, we had the keyboard class, the books were designed for typewriters (both manual and electric), but we used Microsoft Works instead. I changed the font to the one used in the book (Courier), and then after it is printed, the teacher look at it and said I put two space after a comma, even though I didn't. I told the teacher but that is how is in the book, but he said you are not supposed to change the font < 1276312192 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At first I didn't know that, because it iwas the first day in that class < 1276312203 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-205-116.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276312236 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1276312349 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another thing that happened in that class was, the teacher was watching the screen of the computer I was working on, he said he didn't want me programming in C because he programs in C. I wasn't even programming in C, and the teacher probably just made it up < 1276312387 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't even programming in any program language, I was just at the command prompt, but he didn't know that < 1276312562 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I implement in C program, to check for user logged in, and check for user TTY? How can I implemented it so it work on Linux and on Cygwin? < 1276312591 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION passes on that question < 1276312808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have almost fixed the SUMMON CTHULHU command, I just need one more question: What kind of typewriter do you have, is it manual or is it electric? <-- me? None < 1276312812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a computer only < 1276312814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well three < 1276312816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err 4 < 1276312822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but one is for nostalgia < 1276312825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(old old mac) < 1276312847 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1276312898 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That is OK if you don't have typewriter, I only needed to know from someone who did have a typewriter < 1276312943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I want one running on steam power though! < 1276312994 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Try to build such a thing if you know how (but that wasn't my question) < 1276313160 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sprunge OfVi < 1276313189 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you notice it is broken? < 1276313196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is broken? < 1276313221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://sprunge.us/ works for me < 1276313237 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean the C program < 1276313243 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says /* Not implemented */ < 1276313248 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is the part which is broken < 1276313248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, you didn't give me any link < 1276313257 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/OfVi < 1276313262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*clicks* < 1276313271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276313275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, too sleepy to read it < 1276313276 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I fix it? < 1276313286 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also tell me if the other code is also broken < 1276313297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I have no idea, no ircd I know implements summon < 1276313304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a legacy thingy < 1276313370 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why I need to fix it, and then some ircd you know will be implements summon < 1276313376 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which is this one) < 1276313406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... I have no idea how to do it < 1276313437 0 :jabb!~grue@71.94.31.166 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276313486 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It implement SUMMON and also NOMMUS < 1276313519 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best way to learn modern compiler infrastructure? (I already own the Dragon Book) < 1276313533 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before browsing llvm source I had never heard of "Dwarf Exception Handling" < 1276313565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jabb, DWARF is a debugging format iirc < 1276313573 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: At least is the SUMMONTYPE_EXECUTE not broken? < 1276313577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how it interacts with exception handling < 1276313581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, no idea < 1276313594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1276313610 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, is that how fork() execl() command is working? < 1276313690 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I can try compile and see if it is working or not < 1276313818 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to add a document that says that you must not make this software double-daemonized in Cygwin < 1276313830 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Single-daemonized is good enough) < 1276314044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double double toil and trouble < 1276314389 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The NT service manager complains if you double-daemonize < 1276314396 0 :augur!~augur@pool-173-73-125-242.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276314436 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1276315385 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1276315636 0 :augur!~augur@pool-173-73-125-242.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276315674 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1276316080 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276317069 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1276317070 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1276317070 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1276317109 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION concludes Geekthras must be a secret bot < 1276317578 0 :Geekthras!~geekthras@adsl-99-39-2-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276317578 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276317578 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276318848 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276319042 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUMMON CTHULHU command is now fixed! I also added NOMMUS command, which can be used to answer/check/configure it (server operators only). < 1276320506 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1276320740 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what's this? < 1276320810 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1276320970 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is commands in my IRC server. < 1276321003 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems more like an IRC-like server. < 1276321061 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It is not the original IRCd as first written. Is that what you mean? < 1276321198 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Guess I got my swagga' backward | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1276321237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hi again < 1276321250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to upgrade from karmic I feel < 1276321304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : double double toil and trouble <-- in modern language this would be "long double toil and trouble" < 1276321350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, with double daemonise, do you mean double fork()? < 1276321383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, also, how do you implement server linking? < 1276321385 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What I mean is using cygrunsrv to run it as a service, and then also the program detaching itself as well, which makes it double daemonised < 1276321390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what server-server protocol I mean < 1276321401 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Server-server protocol is just normal IRC protocol < 1276321410 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I have no other servers linked < 1276321421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, how do you prevent riding netsplits then? < 1276321430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't have timestamps < 1276321437 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :194IRCd/CthulhuIRCd is based on ngIRCd, which uses normal IRC protocol. < 1276321443 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is riding netsplits means? < 1276321458 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I didn't write the server-server protocol codes, that was already there) < 1276321458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well if you have a netsplit a channel could become empty on one side < 1276321476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, now imagine some person joining this empty channel, thus getting +o in it < 1276321489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the servers reconnect that person could kick all the real ops of the channel < 1276321492 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! type channels is meant for that purpose. Unfortunately, ! type channels is not implemented yet. < 1276321506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, how does ! type channels prevent this? < 1276321550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, and the usual way to prevent it is to make channels have timestamps for when they are created. In case of mismatch on server linking, the modes from the new one are discarded. < 1276321553 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It prevents it by adding a random code at the beginning of the channel name, so if a netsplot happens and someone joins the empty channel, they will get a different channel, not the same one < 1276321579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what a hackish way, and you could get same, since it is random < 1276321582 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The channel types is #&!+ currently only #&+ is implemented < 1276321604 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know, but apparently that is how it is supposed to work. < 1276321615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, the timestamp solution is much cleaner < 1276321624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, and I never heard of any network using ! style channels < 1276321633 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRCNET uses ! type channels < 1276321642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, okay but ircnet is whacky < 1276321655 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRCNET uses all four types of channels < 1276321666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ircnet is the worst irc network still in existence < 1276321685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from a pure technical perspective I mean < 1276321695 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know, it becomes difficult to connect and stay on, and stuff like that. < 1276321700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :purely* < 1276321703 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is why I run my own IRC < 1276321706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, well that too < 1276321711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why not use freenode? < 1276321716 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually, there are other reasons I run my own IRC, as well) < 1276321721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, freenode is a relatively sane and modern irc network < 1276321732 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a lot of reasons I run my own IRC. < 1276321739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what they WANT you to think < 1276321748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I said "relatively" < 1276321750 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# closures make me a happy developer < 1276321765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and probably yes, they want me to think that. But so would anyone < 1276321777 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a closure a day keeps the bugs away? < 1276321779 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I or someone else can implement a way to prevent riding netsplits (if it is not already implemented), one day < 1276321795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION kills oerjan with his own frying pan < 1276321797 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& and + type channels are already immune < 1276321804 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek < 1276321857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I certainly hope it does it properly < 1276321872 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hope what does what properly? < 1276321898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, ngircd implements the server protocol properly < 1276321903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what I hope < 1276321920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, anyway charybdis and inspircd are the two best ircds today IMO. They are comparable in features and how good the code is. < 1276321921 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it does, it says it is able to be connected to servers using the original IRCd < 1276321934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhat different views on matters but both are very good < 1276321942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atheme is the best service package < 1276321955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think it does, it says it is able to be connected to servers using the original IRCd <-- then it probably doesn't < 1276321969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the original protocol did not prevent riding netsplits and so on! < 1276321977 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, when I looked at list of IRCd program, I decided to use ngIRCd that is the one closest to what I wanted < 1276322005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TS6 or some similar server-server protocol is the way to go < 1276322040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(both inspircd and charybdis uses server-server protocols based on TS6, not compatible though) < 1276322079 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One way that ! channels could fix riding netsplits, is instead of a random code, enter the timestamp at the beginning of the channel name, and use that for server-server communication. (For client-server, only the normal channel name is visible) < 1276322094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, that would work I guess < 1276322109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, but what happens when there is a conflict? < 1276322123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on server linking I mean < 1276322136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens currently? < 1276322267 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know what happens currently < 1276322289 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can try irc.barton.de, which runs ngIRCd < 1276322301 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And irc.barton.de also has multiple servers < 1276322309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I would have to wait for a netsplit... < 1276322327 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also just look at the codes and try to figure out < 1276322336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm not THAT interested < 1276322364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, anyway, since it doesn't implement ! style, I guess it doesn't really make sense to ask what it does currently < 1276322438 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At first it implemented only # type channel, now it has #&+ type channels. Later on I plan to implement ! type as well (or if the ngIRCd people do so, I might copy their codes) < 1276322534 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: No, but there is an actual *definition* of the IRC protocol. < 1276322539 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an RFC. < 1276322564 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, I have read the RFC < 1276322594 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there you go. < 1276322640 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1276322660 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What exactly reason are you refering to this for? < 1276322690 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ngIRCd already implements the IRC protocol, isn't it? < 1276322694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I highly doubt SUMMON CTHULHU is valid. :) < 1276322724 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cthulhu does not ask what is valid < 1276322742 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I have implemented some extra commands. (And SUMMON is a valid command, with parameters. My program extends it to work with or without parameters, depending on server configuration file) < 1276322749 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any C# people here? I'm not getting a response in ##csharp < 1276322771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: No, but we are people of reasonable intelligence. < 1276322786 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, C# has monads and lambda; I can fake C# knowledge. :P < 1276322789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what we WANT you to, er, something < 1276322809 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I access an anonymous function from within the anonymous function? < 1276322824 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what the government wants you to think. < 1276322845 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If said anonymous function has had a name bound to it somehow, almost certainly. After all, those suckers close. < 1276322870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1276322888 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a more serious note: you probably want a fixed-point combinator. < 1276322899 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, I have implemented some new commands which are not part of any RFC: EUTHANIZE FLUSH NOMMUS PROXY < 1276322921 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a name bound to it, but the IDE says no < 1276322925 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how one would go about writing one in C#, but in Haskell, it's: fix f = let x = f x in x < 1276322974 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# isn't exactly Haskell-pure < 1276322982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually. C#'s functions aren't statically typed like Haskell's... You could probably get away with using the Y combinator directly. < 1276323030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is: Y := λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x)) < 1276323082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y ask Y < 1276323110 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1276323124 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just Googled, and found stuff that looks like it may be useful for this < 1276323125 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty pikhq < 1276323149 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, almost certainly a fixed point combinator. < 1276323156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as that is what you asked for) < 1276323161 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I should note that I don't intend to CALL the function from within the function < 1276323169 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know how much of a difference that makes < 1276323172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :None. < 1276323194 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-4-184.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276323234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. No. Possibly makes a difference. < 1276323235 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, without even looking at the combinator stuff in that article, a flawed workaround makes the compiler not complane for me < 1276323243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have to see the code to be sure. < 1276323294 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The flaw shouldn't affect me < 1276323357 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://blogs.msdn.com/b/wesdyer/archive/2007/02/02/anonymous-recursion-in-c.aspx the trick with null is what I'm using < 1276323576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Also, C# has monads and lambda; I can fake C# knowledge. :P <-- ??? C# has monads? < 1276323577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1276323578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since when? < 1276323590 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They call it "LINQ". < 1276323598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh that is post-2.0 < 1276323602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no clue about ot < 1276323603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it* < 1276323613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also I thought that was SQLish < 1276323613 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is nothing more than monads and monad comprehension syntactic sugar. < 1276323616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not monadish < 1276323632 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's one of the monads. < 1276323634 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1276323637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm < 1276323651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so fairly advanced stuff then < 1276323659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1276323689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how did they get this past the OO-mad people? < 1276323709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't call it monads. < 1276323717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that easy? < 1276323725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my < 1276323742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1276323757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what do they call it instead? < 1276323760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LINQ. < 1276323807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, right but the monad data type I mean < 1276323813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, or whatever < 1276323823 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is only partially implemented, I have not currently implemented forwarding, check user's login state, and send to user's TTY. (Even if they are implemented, the way I wrote it, all of these features can be controlled by configuration file: "F" for forwarding, "L" for check login state, "T" to send to TTY, "X" to execute a program, "J" to check if you can join &SUMMON channel, "K" to check channel keys, etc) < 1276323846 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, C#'s type system doesn't allow for "type classes". I think their syntactic sugar works on anything with a bind and return method. < 1276323854 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go ahead and try it if you want to, just connect to my IRC and try whatever commands you want (including "HELP" command) < 1276323869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1276323876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell newtype Fix a = Fix {fixing :: Fix a -> a}; fix f = (\x -> f (fixing x x)) (Fix (\x -> f (fixing x x))); main = print . take 10 $ fix (1:) < 1276323876 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkdir: cannot create directory `/tmp/tmp.14246': No space left on device < 1276323886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1276323892 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also updated the MOTD a bit) < 1276323897 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, the bot's broken! < 1276323940 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you create too many files? < 1276324129 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1276324166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1276324167 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . < 1276324174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen test < 1276324178 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Top %: 0.1 < 1276324183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1276324194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange error < 1276324202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1276324209 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Failed to clone the environment! < 1276324213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1276324218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah his server is broken < 1276324284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks that the newtype trick works in winhugs < 1276324341 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please tell me if you have any important question to add into the FAQ in my IRC. (It can be accessed by using the "HELP FAQ" command) < 1276324379 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELP FAQ < 1276324413 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Not on *this* server! < 1276324434 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mean this server! I meant my server (zzo38computer.cjb.net:194) < 1276325443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, not even ircnet uses 194 afaik? < 1276325457 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think you are correct < 1276325466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why... < 1276325501 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because zzo38... Is zzo38. < 1276325502 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1276325589 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.theonion.com/interactive/the-onion-sports-introduction-to-world-cup-soccer,17558/ < 1276325654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, point taken < 1276325924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, not very funny to an European < 1276325935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though I'm not the least interested in football < 1276325945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and never understood what "off side" was about < 1276325977 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's funny to me, who understands football/soccer pretty well but knows that the USA doesn't care at all about the game < 1276326016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of them aren't funny (iron rod), but others are great (red card) < 1276326060 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh, off side is what happens if those players forget to follow the giant metal rod, of course < 1276326061 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1276326560 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1276326818 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1276327366 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1276327589 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276327610 0 :Halph!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1276327622 0 :Halph!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1276327791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, XD < 1276327806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, "halph"? < 1276327834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits for some explanation to that < 1276327842 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will decline to answer < 1276327849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, why? < 1276327879 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too lazy < 1276327886 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276328094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lalala < 1276328100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: coppro is just trying to be too clever... < 1276328123 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am? < 1276328148 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: check this out < 1276328166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well either you or my lazy pun < 1276328171 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to define a formal system of whatever sort you like < 1276328179 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a programming language, if you will < 1276328208 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which the following expression, using normal functional application, is ambiguous between two readings: < 1276328249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahargh! < 1276328252 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(xs, i, first(g)) -- where the interpretations of this are < 1276328255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is aha + argh) < 1276328263 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you got my pun? < 1276328267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no < 1276328273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was caused by insufficiently debounced power key < 1276328285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha! for finding out the cause of the issues. < 1276328293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh! for not being easy to fix < 1276328296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: too bad, it would have been such a great reaction < 1276328296 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given some list xs, and some index i, xs[i] is the first element of xs for which both g and f are true < 1276328320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I was not paying attention to IRC at all < 1276328329 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: can you think of a way this could be the case < 1276328345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I need a 24 tooth clutched lego gear. I know I have three, I can't find any of them... < 1276328415 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clutched gear? < 1276328495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, that is what it is called officially < 1276328502 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i saw you ask that question previously. i did not find it interesting... it looks an attempt to mix exactly those kind of features of natural language into formal language that needed to be _removed_ in order to make formal language precise and useful in the first place. < 1276328508 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*looks like < 1276328512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, basically it slips if stuck < 1276328526 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276328531 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I know what one you mean < 1276328532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, so it acts to prevent stuff breaking < 1276328541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, white with grey middle? < 1276328545 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1276328551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, yep that's the one < 1276328562 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah indeed it is a fact about natural language. the trick is to understand how its possible in natural language at all, what the formal mechanisms are that make it possible :P < 1276328573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, didn't know you were a lego fan < 1276328575 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think of it like Intercal's nondeterminism < 1276328595 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not currently, but I spent some time with it previously < 1276328606 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(through school) < 1276328609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ah < 1276328620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why the white one says 2.5 * 5.0 Ncm on it < 1276328628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the slippage load or something < 1276328640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I found it at last) < 1276328790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, huh seems I have 4 of them < 1276328801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I can only find 2. But peeron says I have 4 < 1276328810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( http://www.peeron.com/inv/parts/60c01?myparts=1 ) < 1276328817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# (You own 1 x) 2 in 8479-1 - Barcode Multi-Set (1997) < 1276328817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# ( 1 x) 1 in 3804-1 - Robotics Invention System 2.0 (2001) < 1276328817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# ( 1 x) 1 in 9747-1 - Robotics Invention System 1.5 (1999) " < 1276328825 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1276328830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, very nifty site that < 1276328857 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, seems awesome < 1276329599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1276329600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1276329602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, very slow loading site too < 1276329617 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hate those < 1276330210 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :****ing end-of-season cliffhangers! < 1276330244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, oops < 1276330250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, what series? < 1276330250 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops? < 1276330262 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stargate Universe < 1276330266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1276330269 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-3-144.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276330294 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like a Stargate tradition < 1276330308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1276330403 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, the cliffhanger here ends with something like half the cast facing imminent death for various reasons :( < 1276330430 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish it was that the entire ship faced certain destruciton or something < 1276330440 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then I'd know how that will come out < 1276330461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, XD < 1276330475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, certain destruction < 1276330476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1276330483 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'd find an impossible solution < 1276330487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it would explode in the first episode < 1276330488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1276330493 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ending a series isn't a great way to start a new season < 1276330499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, otherwise it isn't certain destruction < 1276330504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is certain survival < 1276330509 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes, that's the irony < 1276330527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, just try applying logic :P < 1276330539 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, the way they did these cliffhangers, there's no telling who will come out of the premiere alive < 1276330552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1276330567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, presumably some of them < 1276330574 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is quite different from the norm, where everyone is about to die, and so the premiere will consist of breaking physics to make it work. :P < 1276330577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, either some or all < 1276330580 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly, pikhq < 1276330586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1276330590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :breaking physics? why? < 1276330593 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but the trick is that some people might actually die < 1276330600 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course, in a series where you've got cheap and easy wormholes, "breaking physics" is just par for the course. :P) < 1276330608 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have to wait 3 months to survive! < 1276330653 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I learned today that too much gamma radiation causes people to evaporate into dust! < 1276330667 0 :vuvuzela!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :vuvuzello < 1276330742 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, anyone here read Calculus by Spivak? < 1276330799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you broke physics! you bastards! < 1276330827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, who needs that "inertia" thing anyways? < 1276330842 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not me. i may have _seen_ the book. < 1276330940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what about inertia? < 1276330955 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION removes it < 1276330958 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1276330976 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watch out you don't get killed by a falling satellite < 1276331140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I learned today that too much gamma radiation causes people to evaporate into dust! <-- no? < 1276331143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welll < 1276331145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well* < 1276331146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1276331150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but define too much < 1276331158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also boil away seems more likey < 1276331193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hey, who needs that "inertia" thing anyways? <-- humans. iirc we wouldn't survive without it < 1276331207 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the pulse caused by a white dwarf star crossing paths with the accretion disc caused by its mass being sucked into its binary partner pulsar < 1276331213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, like, we would feel the terrible speed from earth moving around the sun all the time < 1276331221 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, while I'm not even sure such a pulse would be emitted, the concept of a binary pulsar is awesome < 1276331238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1276331279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, being close to a supernova is sure to not be healthy < 1276331285 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true enough < 1276331295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in terms of gamma radiation as well as other stuff < 1276331342 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was joking, as you well know. < 1276331350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without inertia, a *hell* of a lot of stuff breaks. < 1276331359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like... Orbit. < 1276331363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yep < 1276331367 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, while the pulsar seemed like a reasonable attempt to provide a Plot Device, the fact that the FTL drive (lalalalalaicanthearyou) got knocked offline and needed to be repaired by accessing a console on the outside is... Diabolus Ex Machina. < 1276331402 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And any moving object will kinda cease to be moving unless acted upon by an outside force... < 1276331514 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i recall reading about what would happen if the sun went supernova (although it's too small for that). apparently we would be killed already by the initial _neutrino_ emissions. < 1276331521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, heh < 1276331534 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the following _photons_ would evaporate earth completely. < 1276331553 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come the neutrons are emitted first? < 1276331553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah < 1276331568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: not neutrons, neutrinos. very different. < 1276331571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and how can we be killed by neutrinos? < 1276331574 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1276331577 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misread, nvm < 1276331599 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neutrinos can and do interact with other matter, it's just exceedingly unlikely < 1276331606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep exactly < 1276331625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... a hell of a lot of neutrinos? < 1276331628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because there are such an enormous amount of them, 90% of a supernova's energy, with even the followin light shining more strongly than an entire galaxy < 1276331629 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1276331639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*following < 1276331656 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we would stand no more chance than a whelk < 1276331756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even a supernova within a hundred lightyears would be BAD as far as I understood? < 1276331827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276331856 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very < 1276331877 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'd be good for a hundred years though! < 1276331878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i've read 25 light years as the danger limit, _unless_ one of its poles are directed towards us and it emits a gamma ray burst < 1276331900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and if that happens < 1276331900 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case we're toast at a much larger distance < 1276331908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what distance? < 1276331914 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't recall < 1276331921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl breakfast. Hopefully we won't be reached by a supernova that happened 25 years ago during that! < 1276331944 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no real candidates afaik < 1276331991 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a recent brouhaha about betelgeuse, but that turned out to be a "sometime in the next 100000 years" thing, and its poles are _not_ directed at us < 1276332139 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(someone had blown out of proportion the fact that betelgeuse is currently shrinking in size (it's variable) which apparently has little to do with the actual core which explodes in a supernova) < 1276332206 0 :vuvuzello!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to a 2004 study, a GRB at a distance of about a kiloparsec could destroy up to half of Earth's ozone layer; the direct UV irradiation from the burst combined with additional solar UV radiation passing through the diminished ozone layer could then have potentially significant impacts on the food chain and potentially trigger a mass extinction. < 1276332212 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh we _are_ several centuries overdue for a supernova somewhere in our own galaxy < 1276332216 0 :vuvuzello!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kiloparsec < 1276332218 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iirc) < 1276332297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn parsecs which i can never remember how to convert to lightyears < 1276332319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 Parsec = 3.26163626 light years < 1276332346 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm with all those 6's it _should_ be possible to memorize, you'd think < 1276332388 0 :vuvuzello!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :td < 1276332389 0 :vuvuzello!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1276332397 0 :vuvuzello!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other digits are 32132 < 1276332401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait wikipedia says 3.26156 < 1276332439 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which does not match even up to the smallest precision < 1276332451 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276333848 0 :vuvuzello!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1276334346 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1276334388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh uh "WARNING: Failed to read mirror file" looks like a BAD thing during a dist upgrade. < 1276334390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right? < 1276335048 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276335051 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276335764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit google, "continuous" should not fuzzy match "continue"... < 1276336845 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1276336937 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h184.34.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276337222 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1276338844 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276339471 0 :Gregor!~Gregor@75-151-73-57-Spokane.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276341536 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h184.34.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276341594 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276341629 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found out that it is actually possible to assign a drive letter to \Device\NamedPipe and get a directory listing from it. < 1276341694 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get "Volume in drive Z is NamedPipe" and "Volume Serial Number is 0000-0000" followed by a list of files. Only size and name is available, no date/time is listed. < 1276341753 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276341839 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you can get a directory listing, you cannot switch to that drive, and while "dir z:" works, "dir z:\" does not work. < 1276342506 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1276343274 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1276344565 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1276346189 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1276347040 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276347307 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1276350738 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276350927 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: interesting. < 1276350932 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the named pipe stuff. < 1276350943 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is Windows 7 I assume? or...? < 1276350992 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows XP < 1276351010 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... I didn't know Windows used a Device directory < 1276351016 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.125.91 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276351032 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does, but to use it you need this program: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/ddd.zip < 1276351040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiiii < 1276351055 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Source-codes is included with this program. < 1276351120 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you have to see what objects available, using a different program, which is: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896657.aspx < 1276351132 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This program has no source-codes, though. < 1276351498 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276351663 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1276351776 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason I dual-licensed it is because I think it is useful program that Microsoft could include in some future version of Windows, in some Windows resource kit, or for the ReactOS people to include in ReactOS. < 1276351847 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't like the dual-license, you are not required to use the dual-license, you can pick one. (You can also select a later version of the GNU GPL) < 1276352601 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img6/MetaEdit_Error_Message.JPG < 1276352800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! I finally bent gdm mostly to my will < 1276352833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand I probably have a shitload of troubles to deal with after the upgrade to lucid due to hitting https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/etckeeper/+bug/574244 < 1276352842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(meaning upgrade failed near, but not at, the end) < 1276352866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, was it you who said something about gconf to fix button position in windows? < 1276352883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(after upgrade to lucid) < 1276352932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it could have been someone else I guess < 1276353147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Fix? You can use less provocative words for things like that, you know. < 1276353168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taking all your opinions as objective truth is a disease, one which I'm only starting to recover from. < 1276353175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the thing is, the changed button position makes it easy to click close instead of file menu < 1276353178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the reason I say fix < 1276353208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How can I fix Windows?" "Install Linux because Windows makes it easy to get viruses!" < 1276353219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, windows != MS windows here < 1276353224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that. < 1276353267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway I told you the issue I found with the changed position of the buttons in the menu bar, it is too easy to close when you aim for the file menu. Especially when working with a trackpad or trackpoint instead of a "real" mouse. < 1276353275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha @ people thinking Novell v SCO is over. < 1276353277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even groklaw. < 1276353284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCO will so totally start arguing the opposite, it's inevitable. < 1276353293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, can they appeal in theory? < 1276353304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but only if they argue the opposite arguments to their last appeal. < 1276353311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would be utterly bizarre and will, therefore, happen. < 1276353334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, right, but won't that then be dismissed as ridiculous? < 1276353345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All their previous appeals were ridiculous, too. < 1276353361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how many times can you appeal in US? < 1276353377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, at some point you would reach the supreme court or whatever they call it < 1276353384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know the US system -- all I know is that ais523 said SCO could do this. < 1276353390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I saw that < 1276353399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just wondering how far they reached in the system < 1276353416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1276353425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276353425 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.23198 \ wunderbar_emporium < 1276353434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen is it fixed? < 1276353441 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :123 +++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++>++>++++<<<<-]>>.<-----.>>++.<.<+.>>.<---.+++.<++++.>----.-.>>+++.<----------------------. [826] < 1276353443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1276353462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:25:40 I learned today that too much gamma radiation causes people to evaporate into dust! <-- no? < 1276353462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:25:43 welll < 1276353462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:25:45 well* < 1276353462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:25:46 maybe < 1276353462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:25:50 but define too much < 1276353463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:25:58 also boil away seems more likey < 1276353465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:26:33 Hey, who needs that "inertia" thing anyways? <-- humans. iirc we wouldn't survive without it < 1276353468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1276353547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:35:56 even a supernova within a hundred lightyears would be BAD as far as I understood? < 1276353548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:37:36 very < 1276353548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:37:57 we'd be good for a hundred years though! < 1276353551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks, captain obvious! < 1276353605 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....... < 1276353610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:42:44 dammit google, "continuous" should not < 1276353611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuzzy match < 1276353611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "continue"... < 1276353613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :search +continuous < 1276353616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: ellipses howso < 1276353624 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:56 -!- alise [~alise@91.105.125.91] has joined #esoteric < 1276353627 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mad bro? < 1276353638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How I mad, bro? < 1276353646 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am disappoint. :( < 1276353651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I know, but it was a strange fuzzy match anyway < 1276353658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: thou art confuzzling me. < 1276353667 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno < 1276353672 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I felt like quoting something from you < 1276353677 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I couldn't find anything < 1276353678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We found out that the Unreal3.2.8.1.tar.gz file on our mirrors has been replaced quite a while ago with a version with a backdoor (trojan) in it. < 1276353678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This backdoor allows a person to execute ANY command with the privileges of the user running the ircd. The backdoor can be executed regardless of any user < 1276353679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :restrictions (so even if you have passworded server or hub that doesn't allow any users in). < 1276353680 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I just quoted you logging in < 1276353685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UnrealIRCd: Awesome engineering < 1276353703 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC written in the unreal engine? < 1276353712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1276353720 0 :chickenzilla!~chicken@olol.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1276353729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i have an extremely important life dilemma for you all < 1276353748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're drying your hands with a towel when you drop it onto a mucky part of the floor. there are no towels near you. WHAT DO YOU DO??? < 1276353760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My life is so exciting, to be faced with such dilemmas as these. < 1276353760 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Air-dry hands < 1276353760 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....pick the towel up? < 1276353785 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you managed to completely immerse it in the muck, use the other side < 1276353787 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dispose of it properly, air dry, continue with life. < 1276353792 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or yes. < 1276353798 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what Deewiant has suggested. < 1276353802 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the drying phase of this operation. < 1276353804 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you typing with wet hands? < 1276353811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That's the scary thing, it CRUMPLED! *dramatic music* < 1276353835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ended up just using the only corner not muckified. Admittedly it wasn't actually that mucky, I just felt like doing so. < 1276353839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was not fully awake at the time. < 1276353862 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION did not sleep last night < 1276353878 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sips coca-cola and reads arguments about the existence of a God for philosophy class. < 1276353884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So anyway, I think I have a workable model for a prototype secure, STUFF-implementing, high-level OS. < 1276353887 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...it's kind of weird being up this early. It's 9:44 AM < 1276353904 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas, just a few weeks ago, this is the time I would be going to sleep. < 1276353955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh look at that, another iPhone. < 1276353979 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, there's a virtual world I think I may be interested in < 1276353988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Astonishing. < 1276353991 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it has Apple-esque policies on content creation... < 1276354002 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatchu talkin' bout? < 1276354025 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blue Mars < 1276354063 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sandboxcitymars.blogspot.com/2010/05/tharsis-estates-uploaded-to-be-online.html < 1276354117 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a different post: "- Remove female models since they are too "adult" to pass QA. < 1276354117 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1276354122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1276354159 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's just a phase, or maybe the creator voluntarily was submitting to a PG thing < 1276354167 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I'm just trying to justify this to myself < 1276354199 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At any rate, I can't enter Blue Mars until I make the gaming computer < 1276354248 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psh, text-based is > < 1276354276 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are my options for text-based? < 1276354288 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LambdaMOO, with a sucky culture, or M*U*S*H, with sucky softcode? < 1276354288 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is IRC servers supposed to disconnect the client if the client sends a command which is too long? < 1276354307 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: there are some good text-based MUDs that use MUD-like commands and such < 1276354310 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are other MOOs < 1276354338 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...but I really hate the command structure of MOO and MUSH... and thus prefer to find the rare MUD-descended roleplay-oriented ones. < 1276354368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is LambdaMOO's culture sucky? < 1276354433 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to forgo documentation in favor of just having people ask questions, and seems to be against, say, MOO-wide chat < 1276354459 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1276354462 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1276354463 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1276354501 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was working on a Python MUD server the built-in documentation feature of Python was rather handy < 1276354511 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I could just write up helpfiles on the command functions themselves. < 1276354536 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then have the helpfile system extract the __doc__ attribute. < 1276354579 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276354601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : So anyway, I think I have a workable model for a prototype secure, STUFF-implementing, high-level OS. < 1276354605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish someone was more excited by this >_> < 1276354615 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've convinced me. < 1276354618 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm excited. < 1276354619 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's stuff? < 1276354635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STUFF is my name for the family of models of stuff in operating systems. < 1276354642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A model is only STUFF if it is unified (everything fits into it). < 1276354645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plan 9's files are STUFF. < 1276354649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk's objects are STUFF. < 1276354662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unix files aren't STUFF, because you have a lot of things like ioctl() that don't fit into the model. < 1276354672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any truly good OS must, of course, have STUFF. < 1276354706 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "Everything is a file" is cake? < 1276354709 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In UNIX? < 1276354719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes it is. < 1276354726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would also have accepted "lie". < 1276354947 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah Plan 9 and Styx does "everything is a file" < 1276354949 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not UNIX. < 1276354984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, STUFF is particularly good STUFF if actual running "program code" fits in to the model as well. Smalltalk's objects satisfy this, Plan 9's files don't because they are inert. < 1276355022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My incarnation of STUFF is sort of a unification of message-passing, Plan 9's filesystem-based solution with per-process FS roots, and living processes. < 1276355087 0 :hiato!~nine@dsl-245-32-207.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1276355094 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop making me want to study Smalltalk again! < 1276355099 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great... but is it Turing complete? < 1276355104 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is #esoteric, you know. < 1276355119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is, being that the system would be programmed in it ;-) < 1276355128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urgh, why is ;-) so creepy? < 1276355130 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well good. < 1276355133 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the nose. < 1276355136 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) is better. < 1276355149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1276355161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even ;) triggers some sort of "crazy pedo" switch in my brain though :P < 1276355171 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What makes you say that? ;) < 1276355177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AIEEEEEEE < 1276355181 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe winks are just creepy. < 1276355185 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general. < 1276355197 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about ;P < 1276355204 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that requires quite a bit of coordinate. < 1276355210 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tongue-waggling /and/ winking, my word. < 1276355477 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276355569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/1001801.txt?key=hvhwcbziyri1j4vsujpzqq Some very muddled thoughts about what something in my system might look like. < 1276355701 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must.. stay.. awake < 1276355729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly it is ugly, but ... < 1276355730 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My eyes are tearing up < 1276355733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a start. < 1276355842 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to torrent something, but don't have nearly enough disk space < 1276355888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1276355904 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has always had space issues < 1276355951 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@adsl-69-226-14-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276355989 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276356139 0 :hiato!~nine@dsl-245-46-154.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1276356359 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1276356374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: So were you legitimately excited? Somehow I think not :P < 1276356470 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-shrug- I would trust that you have devised a consistent and well-formulated OS design in only a day or so as equalls as I would trust such from myself < 1276356474 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not very. < 1276356483 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*equally < 1276356511 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I am intrigued. I don't know if excited is the right word. :) < 1276356765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I /have/ been thinking about this stuff in the back of my mind constantly for about a year. < 1276356773 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1276356773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And had sections of thinking about nothing else for a while. < 1276356799 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well okay. < 1276357081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Problem is, sometimes these purist designs turn out to be awkward in practice. < 1276357087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. < 1276357088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ of: 's: < 1276357088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ (name: s) < 1276357089 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. imagine that. < 1276357090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is hideous. < 1276357096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Shush, you. < 1276357102 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1276357104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean purist as in lambda calculus purist :P < 1276357110 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I know what you mean < 1276357169 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially with OS design. By using a unified model you're stating that every possible interaction of IO between processes, other processes, and the outside world... fits into this one concept. < 1276357178 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only does it fit, but it fits well and makes sense. < 1276357210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1276357223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plan 9 totally nails it as far as inert things go; it doesn't have actual process code running in files. < 1276357233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk nails it by simply ignoring the outside world. < 1276357367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:07:33 PROLOG isn't 2d though < 1276357371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DON'T KNOW ABOUT PROLOG, BUT Prolog IS 1D < 1276357400 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. are you mixing message passing into the filesystem or? < 1276357415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:13:17 About a meg of Brainfuck. < 1276357416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two. < 1276357420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: There is no filesystem. < 1276357445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, the model is: I'll use the word "object" here, but try not to let any previous experience with things called "objects" get in the way. < 1276357465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything is an object: there is no filesystem or anything. You have your disk, and RAM is treated as a cache for disk, basically. So everything is always there, and there is no persisting or anything. < 1276357471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what is an object? < 1276357486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An object is a running piece of code, that runs in tandem with all the other objects (of course, it may not be run for a very long while if it is ignored for long enough). < 1276357493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do objects interact? < 1276357516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If an object has a handle to another object, it can send it a message -- either another object, or a symbolic name. < 1276357539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The object that the message is sent to has a bunch of slots, saying "if given this name, do this thing", or "if given this object, do this thing". They can also have placeholders: < 1276357552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If given any object, given a certain condition, do this thing; otherwise, keep looking for a "handler". < 1276357558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interesting thing is, this message is sent asynchronously. < 1276357577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a b c d" means "sent off b to a; then when you get the result, sent c to the result; then when you get the result, send d to the result". < 1276357579 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you could also have objects not running when they're waiting on messages. Like Erlang essentially. < 1276357592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"x := a b c d" makes x a future, in a sort of lazy way. < 1276357605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Possibly, but I think objects should be able to constantly run code in the background, e.g. a calculation. < 1276357608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, the interesting thing: < 1276357614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do we know what "a" is, when we send a message to the object a? < 1276357616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple. < 1276357625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every object has "slots". < 1276357632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, every object has the slot "self", pointing to itself. < 1276357637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are NO global variables. < 1276357643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you get slots pointing to useful things? < 1276357646 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well right... this would be the case in which you wait for messages asynchronously with a timeout. < 1276357651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple: You specify in the object's definition that it requires some certain kind of object. < 1276357658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then whatever creates you must supply. < 1276357666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is security. < 1276357677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can only use things you have been trusted to use by something else trusted to use them. < 1276357686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are never allowed to access anything you are not trusted with. < 1276357700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, incidentally, those method handlers? Those are slots, too, that you assign yourself. < 1276357737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voila: Objects are living processes, persisted data, and message passers; and they are all these things by one unified mechanism. And they are secure. < 1276357754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might ask: how do we do arguments? < 1276357756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple. < 1276357762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine some object that will add numbers for you, call it adder. < 1276357773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now say we want to do "adder add 2 3" and get 5 back. < 1276357800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In adder's definition, the add method will return an object with a slot standing in for any object, which then returns another object, with a slot standing in for any object. That inner slot then adds the two and returns them. < 1276357805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is like currying, but objecty. < 1276357830 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: (listening, but continuing on our current chain of conversation) so things that don't really need to do anything but respond to messages can simply block and wait for a message... while processes that do something active in the background while waiting for messages can check asynchronously. I don't know if you used Erlang but that's basically how it does message-passing. < 1276357854 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that sounds inefficient from an OS design standpoint. < 1276357881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inefficient? Howso? Also, the waiting for messages would be done implicitly, of course. < 1276357893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, computation would be done by the asynchronous message passes: < 1276357898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do "foo docomplexcomputation". < 1276357901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :docomplexcomputation has a shitload of code. < 1276357907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It runs asynchronously, not bothering you. < 1276357910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tada. < 1276357911 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....right. but why not have an option to block and wait? This makes scheduling easier. < 1276357923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, "foo resultsofcomplexcomputation" would then block until the comptuation is done. < 1276357940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: see above < 1276357955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since objects control all access to their own privates (har har), they block whenever it is needed. < 1276358003 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you cannot block while listening? < 1276358026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... listening is implicit. There is no "listen" instruction. < 1276358038 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...no, there would have to be. < 1276358042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1276358048 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there has to be a point in code where you receive the message. < 1276358051 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I mean by listen. < 1276358058 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"listen" implies block-until-receive. < 1276358062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you define a Smalltalk object, where is the code that does "listen for messages, send off to appropriate method"? < 1276358066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is none. It is part of the language. < 1276358090 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but that's because there's no concurrency. < 1276358094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my OS, object definitions are basically almost entirely assignments to slots. When you create the object, these assignments take place, but also any other code in the initialiser. It then returns the created object. Since the creation of the object is just a message pass to whatever contains the object, it is done asynchronously. < 1276358136 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically you're saying that messages are given handlers. < 1276358146 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is why you don't have to listen with a command. < 1276358161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... no. Messages just pass on to slots, basically. < 1276358182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's how I'd understand it: Read it like you're doing now, but whenever you notice two concepts that are closely related, assume that they're unified into one concept, because they probably are. < 1276358183 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are? < 1276358190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I told you what slots are. < 1276358196 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...but what are they. < 1276358198 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1276358204 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what a slot is on an object < 1276358206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : How do we know what "a" is, when we send a message to the object a? < 1276358206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Simple. < 1276358206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Every object has "slots". < 1276358206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : For instance, every object has the slot "self", pointing to itself. < 1276358206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : There are NO global variables. < 1276358206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : How do you get slots pointing to useful things? < 1276358208 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what do you assign slots to. < 1276358208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: well right... this would be the case in which you wait for messages asynchronously with a timeout. < 1276358211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Simple: You specify in the object's definition that it requires some certain kind of object. < 1276358213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Then whatever creates you must supply. < 1276358215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : This is security. < 1276358217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You can only use things you have been trusted to use by something else trusted to use them. < 1276358219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You are never allowed to access anything you are not trusted with. < 1276358221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : And, incidentally, those method handlers? Those are slots, too, that you assign yourself. < 1276358222 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :......you can stop now. < 1276358223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objects. < 1276358316 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do file-system also need object with each slot for each directory/file/mode/etc? < 1276358317 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this doesn't sound very language agnostic. < 1276358328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Of course it isn't. < 1276358331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no reason to be. < 1276358348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The line between "language environment" and "operating system" is a false one, created by bad OSes from the 70s, pretty much. < 1276358369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are both the environment where things happen and data exists, it's just that the latter is bad at things that the former is good at and vice versa, and there's a crappy interaction layer between them. Pointless. < 1276358375 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are benefits to being able to use any language in your OS environment easily. < 1276358380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How language agnostic is Smalltalk? It's a question that doesn't make sense, isn't it? < 1276358388 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Smalltalk is a language < 1276358390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: To do that, you have to make huge compromises that basically force your OS to suck in many ways; I refuse to do that. < 1276358392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: No. < 1276358395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Smalltalk is an operating system. < 1276358399 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what? < 1276358412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It started out as an operating system; nowadays, it's an operating system that runs in a box on other operating systems, like a VM running Windows. < 1276358418 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since when is Smalltalk an OS? < 1276358423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look up the history. < 1276358429 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1276358439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk is a language AND and an operating system, and always had been. < 1276358440 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would answer the question "since when was Smalltalk an OS" < 1276358443 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not my actual question. < 1276358447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Originally it ran directly on the machine. < 1276358477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Smalltalk environments are full environments with a full interface and a full data storage etc. mechanism, detached from the OS running them, that just so happen to run in a window on a current OS. < 1276358481 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you program Forth, you can make it Forth to be operating system as well, but only if it is. Sometimes Forth is not a operating system, but sometimes it is. Smalltalk is more high-level, so it is different, I suppose. < 1276358490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you say Smalltalk is not an OS, then you say that Windows is not an OS because Windows can run on modern OSes in a box. < 1276358506 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inferno is a operating system and VM, and can run inside of other operating-system, or by itself. < 1276358518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inferno is basically Plan 9 made to be VMy. < 1276358532 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I am still Smalltalk is a programming language and not an OS. < 1276358549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are wrong, and the creators of Smalltalk even disagree with you. < 1276358559 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even just ctrl+f'd "operating system" in its wiki article and there were no matches. This doesn't prove anything, but it makes me certain of my stance. < 1276358574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, even cpressey disagrees with you. That's like being dishonoured to the max. At least here :P < 1276358609 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saying Smalltalk is an operating system is like saying that any language with its own process scheduler is an OS. < 1276358634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm uninterested in arguing it. < 1276358654 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I am as well. < 1276358842 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk is probably more of an OS than YouOS was < 1276358889 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erlang is more of an OS than Smalltalk. < 1276358897 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276358906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: hahaha < 1276358935 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erlang programs can standalone. Smalltalk programs rarely do < 1276358944 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Unless you're using GNU Smalltalk[ < 1276358945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to suggest to avoid commenting at all on Smalltalk's OS status until you get convinced by, say, someone who actually knows about Smalltalk. Say, one of the original designers? < 1276358945 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :] < 1276358950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be good. < 1276358955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you'll just be embarrasing yourself. < 1276358969 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah... < 1276358996 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd only embarass myself if I cared what a language designer thinks. I know plenty about Smalltalk. < 1276359004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, clearly, not enough. < 1276359009 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuckin' popunders, how do they work? < 1276359014 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's nice. < 1276359015 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1276359052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, what is it with people these days and leaving when someone tells them they're wrong? That's what /my/ job used to be. < 1276359196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ask Proggit: How to file an International Software Patent WITHOUT a patent attorney?" < 1276359201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, proggit will help you file a software patent. < 1276359233 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like patent. < 1276359237 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't file any patent < 1276359298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even those who do like patents dislike software patents, especially as they contradict what a patent was originally invented for! < 1276359302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ridiculous. < 1276359351 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, that is true, many people even if they like patents in general, still dislike software patents. (Not all people) But some people (including myself) doesn't like any patent at all. < 1276359370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike all forms of intellectual property! Apart from trademarks, those are quite acceptable. < 1276359389 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also happen to like trademarks. I find trademarks also acceptable. < 1276359438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Trademarks: Quite acceptable, agreeable things." That's some rallying cry. < 1276359448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ABOLISH IP! ABOLISH IP! BUT KEEP TRADEMARKS, THEY'RE QUITE ACCEPTABLE!" < 1276359451 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would be ticked if someone took my code and claimed that they wrote it, and this claim became widely accepted and the code becomes widely used < 1276359469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: there are many factors mitigating this in a no-IP world < 1276359492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, their only profit would be in ego, as selling software would become pointless; and in such an internetty world, cases of plagiarism like that are widely publicised easily. < 1276359524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I made this free software project, ooh la la, and totally didn't become rich off it" is not very e-penis enlarging. < 1276359622 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If someone used my codes, licensed under GNU GPL (which, however, requires copyright), or public domain, or whatever else, I really don't care if nobody knows who wrote it, or how someone changed their copy (and redistributed it), as long as they don't deny other people the same rights, or claim that the modified version is endorsed by me if I didn't actually endorse it. < 1276359657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also a good point: wanting desperately to be credited for some software is basically ego. < 1276359660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who cares, really? < 1276359706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether trying to make a simple OS using some /existing/ interpreter for the high-level stuff would be easier than writing an interpreter tailored for a standalone environment for a new language and making an OS out of that < 1276359766 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does not code for free. Admittedly, I don't get paid with money, and so far, never have, but I do get paid with recognition < 1276359789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't see this as a particularly positive trait in you. < 1276359815 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see it as particularly negative. I would imagine that it's fairly normal, though. < 1276359829 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-205-116.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276359861 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I probably value recognition more, and money less, than many people < 1276360164 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My IRC server currently disconnects the client when you send the command too long. I should probably change it to truncate instead? < 1276360197 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is the comment: Request must not exceed 512 chars (incl. CR+LF!), see RFC 2812. Disconnect Client if this happens. < 1276360229 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But surely instead it should just truncate, or else, display an error without disconnecting the client. < 1276360306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Just truncate; i.e., if you are using some fgets() or similar, use a 512-character long buffer, and pass 512 to the function as the number of characters you would like to read. < 1276360320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something. < 1276360328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, if the buffer does not have \r\n, read until \r\n. < 1276360332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and disregard) < 1276360490 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That is exactly what I intended to do at first. But when I looked at the codes, it does not work that way, so I will do it in the way these codes does work < 1276360507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yarr < 1276360517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write an IRC daemon, now. < 1276360518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, I will. < 1276360900 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I lied. There is one project for which completing it is more important to me than recognition < 1276361098 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Will you write it based on another code, using parts of any other codes? Will you write in what program language, is it in C? < 1276361110 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you call this program? < 1276361232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I will probably start it from scratch. < 1276361235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably C. < 1276361237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unsure. < 1276361245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike basing programs on others for some reason. < 1276361284 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What features do you plan to implement? < 1276361326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sideset (not super, but not sub either) that clients actually use, minus a few things I deem completely pointless. More than a few, actually. < 1276361330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus my own services implementation, most likely. < 1276361562 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe can you make a list? < 1276361617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1276361624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard. I'll try. < 1276361642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You know all the variations on *-line? I'd probably try and unify them. < 1276361782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's not so radical. < 1276361784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But eh. < 1276361787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What is yours based on? < 1276361816 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine is based on ngIRCd. It is the closest program to what I wanted, so I used it < 1276361882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ngircd is nice. < 1276361912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's event based, right? < 1276361914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, kinda obvious < 1276361917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all irc servers are < 1276361990 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is obvious from the Wikipedia comparison of IRC daemon, that ngIRCd has most of the features I need, and omits most of the features I do not need, and then I can just fix it from there. < 1276362102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a severe sufferer of NIH syndrome, so I loathe to use anyone else's INHERENTLY FLAWED work! < 1276362136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay wtf are ubuntu doing? why are they replacing the gnome logo on the back of cards in the gnome card games with the ubuntu logo? didn't do that in jaunty I'm pretty sure < 1276362160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's called branding and you're allowed to do it. < 1276362167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the foot just confuses ubuntu users, I say this from experience < 1276362176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my mother asked me "why is there a foot on the back of the cards o_o") < 1276362176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also the non-logo filled green background with green bg with ubuntu logo in it < 1276362181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes less sense < 1276362199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is an ugly green shade compared to upstream IMO < 1276362209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a rather more specific complaint :P < 1276362216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw i forget, what are & and ! channels? on irc < 1276362220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what + is, modeless. < 1276362243 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& is local to the current server, and ! is like # but safe against netsplit by adding a code to the beginning < 1276362257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah random code, so not completely safe < 1276362266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and much worse than the normal solution < 1276362275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which checks timestamp on channels when servers link < 1276362277 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have to be random, you can implement it to add a different kind of code, such as a timestamp < 1276362281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& seems silly. < 1276362285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does ! too < 1276362288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and discards the newer one if they are different < 1276362293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(modes from it that is) < 1276362315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: One thing I'd change in my ircd is to drop the stupid RFC definition of uppercasing which has [ be uppercase of { or something like that < 1276362321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to some character set or whatever < 1276362332 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my opinion, it is # silly and &!+ good < 1276362344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is & good < 1276362350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point of server linking is to present a unified network < 1276362365 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are some reasons to have local channels to a server < 1276362369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: when you do a PRIVMSG to a,b,c, do a b and c see it as being sent to a,b,c or just their name? < 1276362378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the former, then it would be useful as an impromptu ad-hoc private channel < 1276362391 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can include server administration stuff, and so on < 1276362410 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you do PRIVMSG to a,b,c, < 1276362421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a,b,c privmsgs don't work on freenode < 1276362422 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I see it only being send to me only < 1276362431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not sure < 1276362438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think "only to them" < 1276362445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: doesn't work on freenode, like i said < 1276362449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that sucks < 1276362463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, nobody supports a,b,c messages right? So if I supported them, I might as well make that change. < 1276362470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also, a request for the names of a,b,c would return a, b and c < 1276362473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh lots of ircds support it < 1276362476 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I look at the log, it does appear in the log < 1276362477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically everywhere but freenode < 1276362479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ^ < 1276362481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, ok < 1276362484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but people only use it for spam :)) < 1276362492 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sent it to: PRIVMSG zzo38,alise,#esoteric < 1276362493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, nop, < 1276362498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seen it use for valid purposes < 1276362511 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See? It works < 1276362517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... I think I should have SOME sort of impromptu private chat functionality < 1276362523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: huh < 1276362526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe freenode supports it now < 1276362544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: zzo38: see private messages < 1276362550 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can just send messages to directly to the other user, if it is only 2 people < 1276362596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bit busy < 1276362598 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For more than 2 people, you can use a channel with key or limit mode set < 1276362674 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, you can possibly have the client to open connection to multiple using the comma < 1276362683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay then, new proposal: < 1276362692 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In PHIRC, the command is "/CHAN alise,AnMaster" for example) < 1276362726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A new prefix, say @. Listed in server prefixes. "/join @a,b,c" puts you in the channel "@a,b,c,you", where you is your nick. Sending messages makes a, b and c join "@a,b,c,you", and see your message in it. < 1276362744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If b parted, all users in "@a,b,c,you" would get transferred to "@a,c,you" instead. < 1276362752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"NAMES @a,b,c,you" would yield a, b, c and you. < 1276362823 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps all the names should be put in alphabetical order < 1276362845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agreed. < 1276362866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So join @x,z,y,ab,c would make you join @ab,c,x,y,you,z. < 1276362870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming your nick is you) < 1276362876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the join would fail if any user was not online. < 1276362880 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, that is what I meant < 1276362909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1276362945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Also, I think I'd make "PRIVMSG a,b,c,d :foo" equivalent to "JOIN @a,b,c,d \n PRIVMSG @a,b,c,d :foo" for backwards-compatibility and also easy conversation-starting. < 1276362947 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I think using a channel with a key mode will work for this sort of things, too (especially if the channel is also secret) < 1276362952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe just "PRIVMSG @a,b,c,d :foo" when you're not in it. < 1276363029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster's pointed out that commas in channel names are a bad idea. < 1276363036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how about @a;b;c. < 1276363037 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem of course is that you can use like "PRIVMSG #channel1,&channel2,!channel3,+channel4 :abcdefg" then the channel name is not allowed a comma I think in channel name? < 1276363050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, so ; instead. < 1276363075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, better check that that doesn't break some common irc clients like irssi, xchat, and the other big ones < 1276363076 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, using something which is allowed in a channel name but disallowed in a nick name is should be used. < 1276363080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I will, yes. < 1276363089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: @ isn't allowed in a nick, is it? < 1276363098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, user!ident@host < 1276363103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But @abc. < 1276363108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't PRIVMSG to @abc. < 1276363110 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so. @ is used to separate nick!username@hostname < 1276363120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1276363125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, just don't use $ < 1276363134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$$$why not < 1276363149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, because that is used for global notices and such. /notice $*.freenode.net [Global notice from staff] < 1276363165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1276363221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you know, it would probably be saner to make a new protocol and drop compatibility. < 1276363229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would make a lot of the stuff less hackish < 1276363236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was what the Haver developers did. < 1276363240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Issue was, writing good clients is hard. < 1276363246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And most people won't want to install one, anyway. < 1276363250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's pretty much dead. < 1276363252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276363258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it turns out IRC actually gets a lot of stuff damn right. < 1276363263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it has warts and flaws, but the actual basics are good. < 1276363268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes but only because no one follows the spec < 1276363270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1276363276 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't really like the @ channel idea you have. I think a better way might be, such as: New command "PRIVCHAT user1,user2,user3" will create a channel @ and the timestamp (or random code or whatever), and you join, all other users named are invited. Everyone else is banned from that channel. < 1276363288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: But clients won't support this by default. < 1276363311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want something I can use right now to say, e.g. /join @coconspirator1,coconspirator2,coconspirator3 and discuss evil plans. < 1276363326 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But you could use the command-mode in the client, to enter that command in, instead of using the menu. Or, a script could be added to make a menu for that < 1276363329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, can you prevent yourself from being joined against your will to such a channel? < 1276363332 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depend on the client, how it is done < 1276363345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway you could do a client script to create a random channel and send INVITE ;P < 1276363373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Any such joining thing would just be a script that /parts as soon as you join. < 1276363379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps a server could support it, but who cares. < 1276363405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well I can quite easily see the possibilities for abuse. filling channel list with useless channels < 1276363416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and making you hit channel count limit < 1276363428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said, there will be a limit on the amount of @ channels you can be in at one time. < 1276363477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, aha! DOS to prevent the user from joining the ones he want < 1276363490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just get a few bots on that create new such channels with him/her < 1276363492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How could you do that if you can only make a user join five channels? < 1276363494 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, how I proposed the PRIVCHAT could be: You are "user0" and you enter the command "PRIVCHAT user1,user2,user3" now the channel is created "@148050176081284" for example, and you automatically are joined (no oper), other users named are invited, everyone else is banned, mode is "+ns", and any member can invite < 1276363507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are the only one who would be so sad that you cannot go from 459 channels you want to 460 channels you want. < 1276363526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most other people would apply something known as being reasonable, and decide that there is surely one channel they don't care about. Or, you know, just part the @ ones. < 1276363537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I guess so. < 1276363538 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, with "PRIVCHAT" command without any parameters, it would create a channel like that but only you on, nobody else invited, and then you have to use INVITE command to invite other users. < 1276363541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll do that. < 1276363551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/privchat would work in xchat, I guess. < 1276363576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, say user A wants to chat to users B and C . But there are the bots E1 to E5 that sends messages like @A,E1 and @A,E1,E2 and so on to fill up. you could make it rather fast to make it hard to start the intended conversation < 1276363577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what if someone invites someone and they are really annoying and you want to get rid of them? < 1276363581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :starting a new privchat would be irritating < 1276363596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and the point of this would be? < 1276363597 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Then you use SILENCE or the client ignore feature. < 1276363602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can flood channels with tons of bots too to stop people talking < 1276363605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoop de doo < 1276363614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, because then they would see your secret plans < 1276363617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they are plotting against you < 1276363670 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Then you have to create a new PRIVCHAT then. Or, you can just create a normal keyed channel with everyone banned except invited users, so that you can be operator. < 1276363679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright then. < 1276363692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ... whatever the point of idiots trolling is < 1276363695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be PRIVCHAT user1 user2 user3, btw, not commas. < 1276363696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely? < 1276363698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying it will happen < 1276363699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, can IRC commands not be variadic. < 1276363700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it is good < 1276363715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I could quite imagine someone like fax or such doing it < 1276363718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, people flood channels too with tons of bots. They get k-lined in no more than a minute and life goes on. < 1276363724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, fax hates programming :-P < 1276363732 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But even then, the server owner could program it to see all of your evil plans anyways! < 1276363743 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If they wanted to!) < 1276363745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yeah but server owners are rarely so ... good :P < 1276363751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also they rarely care about Agora conspiracies < 1276363775 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is "good" the right word? Do you mean "intrusive" or something? < 1276363776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I once had a marvellous proposal. < 1276363794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Well, it's not "bad" per se because they're foiling evil plans. < 1276363796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intrusive is a good word. < 1276363816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, this marvellous proposal. < 1276363831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a cryptographically-secure, completely-encrypted, democratic chat system. < 1276363842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, still, I can't imagine it getting used very often except for abuse. Most people will just create new channel out of habit, and it being easier with their irc client anyway < 1276363873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was utterly glorious. We're talking "a network of servers that CANNOT POSSIBLY do anything evil", along with systems for decentralised channels to get rid of troublemakers by having everyone from then on encrypt their messages so that only everyone BUT the bad guy can decrypt them < 1276363873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1276363879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never got around to... doing it, though. < 1276363908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, e.g. "/privchat ais523 comex" is quicker than "/join #cabalchat \n /invite ais523 \n /invite comex". < 1276363924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making it an invite would be good. < 1276363927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it couldn't be abused. < 1276363991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yeah, my encrypted chat system would have made everything perfect forever. < 1276364001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the automatic join is somewhat annoying though < 1276364007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah so invite < 1276364011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah, invite < 1276364032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd basically be a way of making a secret, invite-only channel with a unique, irrelevant name and automatically inviting some people to it < 1276364034 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INVITE is what I proposed anyways, after alise propose @ channel < 1276364076 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Which is basically what my modification of your idea is. < 1276364085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1276364087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with it now. < 1276364105 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1276364220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what select()-like function does ngircd use? epoll/kqueue? < 1276364306 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the autoconf will automatically select the right one and use preprocessor macro to choose one < 1276364332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ew, autoconf! < 1276364351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, most ircds try to select the best polling function at some sort of configure time < 1276364358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1276364364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, inspircd doesn't use autoconf btw < 1276364365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just wondering if it was still stuck in select() age. < 1276364368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses some perl thingy iirc < 1276364374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it easy to migrate code from select() to epoll()/kqueue? < 1276364377 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use autoconf for my own programs, but this program uses autoconf, so, it is still used. < 1276364380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since autoconf didn't really cover the needs. it is very modular < 1276364399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather nice build system to _use_ at least < 1276364459 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I write a program with based from other program with autoconf, then autoconf is still used. Otherwise it isn't. < 1276364544 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About IRC commands being variadic: Check the commands in RFC to see if there are any variadic, if there isn't, you shouldn't make it variadic either. < 1276364606 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The NS and CS commands commonly found in some IRC networks do not follow proper IRC syntax, And I don't like that it is not following proper IRC syntax < 1276364685 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The syntax highlighting in PHIRC is designed to work only with properly formed IRC commands, so NS and CS confuse it. < 1276364690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, anyway, now I'm kinda sad that I didn't spec up that chat system. < 1276364693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was terribly well thought out. < 1276364750 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(When I complain that the NS and CS are improper syntax, they don't believe me.......) < 1276364853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...but they won't be saying that when I take over the world! *mad cackle* < 1276365159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is it easy to migrate code from select() to epoll()/kqueue? < 1276365166 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B1329FA.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276365278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ^ < 1276365416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not sure, a bit of work at least. It would be easier the other way around < 1276365418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1276365423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1276365426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I should start out writing epoll? < 1276365466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you should start out reading the docs for each (quite short) to see how they differ and then figure out a sane abstraction for them that isn't as inefficient as select() < 1276365502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the main points of epoll/kqueue is that it avoids building the fd list and then copying it to the kernel every time you want to wait on your sockets < 1276365519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I care mainly about Linux, tbh. < 1276365521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so your abstraction should probably just maintain it's own list for the select() case < 1276365529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'd prefer starting just supporting epoll or something. < 1276365538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would probably work < 1276365556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it is like two screens of man page for each to learn them < 1276365567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but ... only losers use BSD :P < 1276365569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least get an idea of how it works < 1276365576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, does OS X use kqueue? < 1276365579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it does < 1276365581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes :P < 1276365598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep losers and typography geeks < 1276365611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey now that's person < 1276365612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no one important really < 1276365612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*personal < 1276365617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1276365624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :os x sorta sucks at typography recently anyway. < 1276365627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1276365637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why? < 1276365641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has nice typefaces, yes, but it's seen some woeful typographic crimes recently. < 1276365647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as? < 1276365649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially on the iPhone and iPad. < 1276365660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iBooks, for instance, justifies text without hyphenating it. Rivers and other such abhorrent ugliness abound. < 1276365689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://subtraction.pmhclients.com/images/uploads/2010-06-08-ibooks.png < 1276365698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's high-quality typesetting! < 1276365707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So really, nowadays the only true refuge of typography fans is TeX. < 1276365711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276365717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, you know, not so bad really. < 1276365719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and yeah Computer Modern is wonderful :) < 1276365727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said Computer Modern. < 1276365730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I say Computer Modern? < 1276365737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computer Modern is Didone, for heaven's sake! < 1276365740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did, and I was serious < 1276365750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, whatever that means < 1276365755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just like how it looks < 1276365766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it is an exemplary example of Didones, and it manages to transcend being Didone, but it's still a fucking Didone typeface and is therefore abhorrent. < 1276365782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didone fonts are the kind that look like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Bodoni_vita_nuova_facsimile_sepia.png < 1276365785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did one, did two, did three, .... < 1276365823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and you don't like them? < 1276365824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1276365829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody does. < 1276365833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, um... < 1276365838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably Knuth does? < 1276365847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I just said I did < 1276365859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, Knuth just made Computer Modern Didone because mathematical type families tended to be. And indeed, Computer Modern is only very subtly Didone. < 1276365867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you didn't say you like them. Just one particular specimen. < 1276365872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well true < 1276365880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computer Modern is a wonderful typeface family, though I daresay its sans-serif variation is its high-point. < 1276365891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, e.g. Bodoni is completely unreadable for long texts. < 1276365898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but I don't see anything wrong with the example you linked apart from that firefox fails at smooth scaling down of the image < 1276365900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the appearance is jarring. < 1276365908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Now try reading a book set entirely in it. < 1276365928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well? shouldn't be too hard? < 1276365931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ridiculously thick strokes along with the ridiculously thin serifs are painful for a long text. < 1276365941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true < 1276365953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Let's put it this way: you'd probably rather read a book in Courier, if you tried reading one in both Bodoni and Courier and could decide afterwards. < 1276365953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then I say that that "Bodoni" isn't a good one < 1276365966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Bodoni is the definition of DIdone. < 1276365967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Didone < 1276365971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't have enough data points to make a generalisation as you pointed out before < 1276365972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didone is literally "Like Bodoni or Didot". < 1276365993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276365994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didot seems superficially better from this specimen: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/DidotSP.png but it has the same problems for long texts, just slightly less so. < 1276366001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And WTF @ that 7.) < 1276366007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that Q's tail. < 1276366012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is wrong with the 7? < 1276366023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like it's been melted. < 1276366032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Top bit is fine, whoops, just sort of slouching downwards. < 1276366037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, does it? I find the 5 harder to accept < 1276366041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like a flag < 1276366043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the top < 1276366047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 5 is a backwards c waving a flag. < 1276366049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha < 1276366069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, Computer Modern is the only acceptable Didone. It's a good one. < 1276366075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's still Didone and therefore on principles I must loathe it :-P < 1276366121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computer Modern sans is very, very nice, though. < 1276366137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://media.smashingmagazine.com/cdn_smash/images/freefonts/cmu-sans-serif.gif < 1276366207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One gripe with Computer Modern serif: the Q'stail should not look like that. < 1276366209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.identifont.com/samples/ams/CMR10.gif < 1276366212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl food < 1276366214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It pokes into the Q before exiting, which is ugly. < 1276366264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1276366273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders about IRC server architecture and such. < 1276366361 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love monospace < 1276366366 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for everything < 1276366388 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@87.112.62.154.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276366410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jabb: hi oklopol < 1276366458 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276366626 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didone? < 1276366633 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One feature I would like to be able to add in Linux, is so that a process can serve a file-system which is automatically mounted under /proc/self/9p/ < 1276366853 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is anyone (in the UK) going to the Vintage Computer Festival next week? < 1276366903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think you are mistaken < 1276366906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* [jabb] (~grue@71.94.31.166): grue < 1276366912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that does not look like oklopol < 1276366933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was joking. < 1276366935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geoip gives US too < 1276366937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah < 1276366937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic: When is it? < 1276366955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, what sort of stuff will be shown there? < 1276366959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PDP-10s? < 1276366967 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19/20 June. 10:30am start, at Bletchley Park near Milton Keynes. < 1276366976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What weekdays? < 1276366979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm then it could be way older < 1276366987 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276366995 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Details: http://www.tnmoc.org/vcf-gb.aspx < 1276367043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic: It's on the weekend! Hooray. < 1276367047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be able to come, then. < 1276367059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, what sort of vintage machines is it dealing with? mainframe? early home systems (c64 and such)? Or maybe varied? < 1276367073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I daresay that most people would be a little confused by a 14-year-old who looks like a 12-year-old appearing at such a festival. < 1276367082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, XD < 1276367105 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: varied < 1276367109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Where is your mother? Do you want me to help you find her?! Oh, you poor lost child! This place must be so strange for you!" < 1276367116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, ah nice < 1276367124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What's your name, Miss ..." (Most people mistake me for female :P) < 1276367130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, a pity it is way too far away for me < 1276367151 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not so close to me. We need to camp over. < 1276367180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but AnMaster's in Sweden. < 1276367187 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah okay :-) < 1276367199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly, way too far away < 1276367201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm in the north, so... I guess I can probably not make it. < 1276367268 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll take some photos for you then! So you know what you missed :-) < 1276367303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tease. < 1276367323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be nice to have a break from the crappy weeks I've been having... oh well. < 1276367426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not moving abroad? < 1276367612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a week? < 1276367861 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1276368070 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you're drying your hands with a towel when you drop it onto a mucky part of the floor. there are no towels near you. WHAT DO YOU DO??? < 1276368139 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dry my hands on my jeans? < 1276368146 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shake your hands vigorously, then possibly wipe on your trousers. at least that's what i did the other day when i discovered there were no paper towels left in the restaurant toilet. < 1276368192 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no i _refuse_ to use that evil blowing machine they have just next to it. you have to _stick your hands into it_ dammit) < 1276368204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the Dyson air hand-dryers are really good < 1276368206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest are shit though < 1276368208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/it/the paper towels/ < 1276368215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although maybe it was a Dyson, iirc those are the ones you have to stick your hands into < 1276368215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's exactly the kind they have < 1276368233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i agree that i wouldn't entrust my hands into james dyson's... hands < 1276368234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still :P < 1276368289 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: mainly it's the fact it blows so hard i cannot avoid hitting the walls of the thing, which completely goes against my basic public toilet hygiene principles < 1276368323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote alise: mainly it's the fact it blows so hard [...] < 1276368324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LULZ < 1276368329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wait the whole thing is hilarious out of context < 1276368334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good thing HackEgo seems to have broken < 1276368338 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whew < 1276368349 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :179| alise: mainly it's the fact it blows so hard [...] < 1276368355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh! < 1276368357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1276368358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1276368359 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1276368369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`revert 1505 < 1276368371 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1276368374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote alise: mainly it's the fact it blows so hard i cannot avoid hitting the walls of the thing, which completely goes against my basic public toilet hygiene principles < 1276368380 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :179| alise: mainly it's the fact it blows so hard i cannot avoid hitting the walls of the thing, which completely goes against my basic public toilet hygiene principles < 1276368381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan is a closeted gay republican < 1276368430 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New programming games keep getting invented faster than I'm learning the old ones :-( < 1276368696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : apparently the Dyson air hand-dryers are really good <-- are they spherical? < 1276368704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ballic < 1276368706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not afaik :P < 1276368711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, meh. < 1276368721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's a reasonable bet that they have some parts also found in vacuum cleaners! < 1276368748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Dyson dryer sphere would have been an awesome name < 1276368791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you forgot "air multiplier" < 1276368813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh? < 1276368818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.dyson.co.uk/fans/ < 1276368835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dyson fan using vacuum cleaner parts with no blades and no buffeting, but otoh it's almost as loud as a vacuum cleaner -- guess why -- and produces not much air < 1276368837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... < 1276368839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it costs. a lot < 1276368840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1276368882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's definitely not the hand drying type though < 1276368892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I can't see any air vents or sch? < 1276368894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such* < 1276368902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's the ring < 1276368910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it looks like a magnifier without the glass to be honest... < 1276368920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and what in the ring? < 1276368923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.dyson.co.uk/images/technology/air_multiplier/header16xMultiplier.jpg some definition of 15 < 1276368928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also lol @ 16x in filename but 15x in picture < 1276368934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nothing, the parts are down below < 1276368945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.dyson.co.uk/dryers/ that picture is the hand dryer thing < 1276368956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, there must be some holes for the air to exit through ... < 1276368965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in the ring. < 1276368989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also I assume it uses fusion or something to produce new oxygen molecules and so on? < 1276368996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :P < 1276369002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, or where does it get the extra 14 parts of air from? < 1276369003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and heck, would you really want to put your hands into anything whose name contains "blade" < 1276369009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hammerspace < 1276369016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1276369045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it uses sheets of purified air travelling at 400mph " <-- isn't that like tornado? < 1276369219 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276369275 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276369285 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New programming games keep getting invented faster than I'm learning the old ones :-( < 1276369341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, such as? < 1276369359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523! < 1276369370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know of a... curses-based word processor? The idea sounds crazy, I know... < 1276369388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: word processors always used to work like that < 1276369397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but not in that sense, really. < 1276369403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WordPerfect could easily have been implemented with curses, although it probably used a different library < 1276369411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello ais523 btw < 1276369415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking mainly something that will match up quotes and convert them to smart quotes as you type, sort of thing. < 1276369425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And perhaps automatically justify and hyphenate text as you type. < 1276369436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, emacs mode! < 1276369445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there isn't one, there should be < 1276369449 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there is emacs rich text mode, you're right < 1276369456 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I have used as a word processor before < 1276369460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Formatted-Text.html#Formatted-Text < 1276369502 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Airblade: there's a thin layer of air being blown where the yellow strip is. It's strong enough to temporarily reshape the skin on your hands. < 1276369536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does not seem to justify /as I type/. < 1276369538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if this is a reference to the Dyson Airblade, it doesn't work very well < 1276369544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I don't have auto fill mode. < 1276369549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it is < 1276369554 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New programming game to be release shortly: http://phonons.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/cells-a-massively-multi-agent-python-programming-game/ < 1276369560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the new handdriers at the university are that model < 1276369580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they never seem to really leave my hands dry, unlike the old-fashioned sort which did after a few minutes < 1276369595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone ought to just invent a self-cleaning towel < 1276369610 0 :vuvuzello!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276369611 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Airblade never dried my hands properly. < 1276369616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enriched-mode sucks, it can't hyphenate < 1276369813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, it's far from ideal < 1276369825 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, someone should write a curses implementation of LyX < 1276369835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ouch < 1276369841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: why ouch? < 1276369842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LyX's typesetting is piss-poor. < 1276369849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It only looks good after sending off to LaTeX. < 1276369849 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, wouldn't be hard to do better < 1276369855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, full list of problems with enriched-mode: < 1276369856 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's good enough to tell what you're doing, though < 1276369865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- It justifies without hyphenation. This is a cardinal sin. < 1276369875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- It can't do nice quotes. < 1276369943 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this reminds me, I own a book about compiler design which appears to have been typeset using troff < 1276369953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When on odd hills I ate corn bread, it was okay to see what the guy who supercalifragilisticexpialidociously antidisestablishmentarianismed up my worldview. < 1276369959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch, enriched-mode. Ouch. < 1276369971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, it gives examples in BCPL, so must be pretty old < 1276369975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : LyX's typesetting is piss-poor. It only looks good after sending off to LaTeX. <-- isn't that the POINT of it? < 1276369980 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with occasional mentions of Pascal and Cobol < 1276369980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: groff actually typesets pretty well nowadays < 1276369981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sending it off to latex I mean < 1276369989 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it would be better if it set well beforehand, though < 1276369996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but e.g. TeXmacs, though it has a bad interface, typesets as well as TeX in real-time. < 1276370002 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it would be better if it set well beforehand, though < 1276370011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well maybe, I find that using a sans serif on screen when editing works better < 1276370021 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'twould make it easier to edit, even though the final product would be the same < 1276370051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I find that with a high enough resolution, serifs make text readable when smaller < 1276370057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well, I really like lyx "concentrate on actual content rather than design" paradigm. You do design fixup as the last thing before sending it to press/printing it/whatever < 1276370062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, I just realised that there is no standard modern UNIX tool for text jusitication. < 1276370064 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I find that with a high enough resolution, serifs make text readable when smaller assuming a good enough resolution < 1276370073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: typography is not design. < 1276370073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah but I can't afford such a high res desktop monitor < 1276370080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: *roff and TeX are enough, surely? < 1276370081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, IMO it is < 1276370081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typography is about readability, which is certainly important when editing. < 1276370083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on what you're trying to do? < 1276370086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I mean plain text. < 1276370092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes and that is why you use a sans serif when editing < 1276370097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: *roff does plain text < 1276370101 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty well, too < 1276370105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't WYSIWYG. They never claimed that < 1276370107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not interested in talking to you. You're as much a zealot as I used to be nowadays. < 1276370111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use texmacs if you want that < 1276370118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, but... < 1276370123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: one tool for one job? I know it's dead, but still. < 1276370125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have fmt(1). < 1276370129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, /used to/still am/ ;P < 1276370130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why not just(1)? < 1276370143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am much less of a zealot than I used to be. < 1276370155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: except it's a pretty complicated job, fmt can't really deal with things like characters not in the character set, embedded images, etc < 1276370166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what has that got to do with justifying text? < 1276370171 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need quite a complicated tool to do typesetting correctly < 1276370180 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: quite a lot < 1276370187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't typeset text unless you know the width to typeset it in < 1276370191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the lengths of the characters < 1276370197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: monospaced justification, foo < 1276370205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one char = one width < 1276370210 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even monospaced, you need to know the widths of the characters < 1276370213 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are not always 1 each < 1276370221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what about floats that should float to the margin? TeX has those as well < 1276370223 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about tabs, combining characters, etc < 1276370223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they can be assumed to be so in a unix environment. < 1276370225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am certain that original UNIX had a justification command. < 1276370228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't see fmt doing it < 1276370231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude, I don't want this as a component of a larger typesetting system. < 1276370247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you seriously arguing that it is nigh-on impossible for a program to exist that justifies monospaced text to a specified width?! < 1276370264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well it would have to be aware of the float placement to give optimal results for line hyphenation, no? < 1276370274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh monospaced? < 1276370277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276370278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey today's mezzacotta comic actually makes sense (sort of) < 1276370278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not if there are no floats because THIS IS NOT PART OF A LARGER TYPESETTING SYSTEM. < 1276370292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: people still read mezzacotta? < 1276370294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if you mean those extra spaces in man pages on some lines I find them ugly < 1276370294 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I must look at this < 1276370301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like fmt formats monospaced text ragged-right, you could easily write a progam to format text justified and hyphenated. < 1276370328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: roff also hyphenates < 1276370329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(man is roff) < 1276370337 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well i do, because i use that page as my "mezzacotta/iwc/d&d portal" < 1276370347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, true < 1276370354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but only for English iirc? < 1276370362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it support rules for different languages? < 1276370369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, who cares < 1276370371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be surprised if groff at least didn't have international support < 1276370372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1276370377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the main thing for me is proper quotes really < 1276370386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i could just use smartypants < 1276370396 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: actually, international language support is one of the direct causes of the growth of OSS < 1276370399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roff doesn't use any fancy hyphenation algorithm afaik < 1276370401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno about new groff < 1276370407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "proper quotes" is very English specific < 1276370410 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that it's swayed many national governments who can't get a copy of Windows for the language they wany < 1276370411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the typical "can't fit it? Oh well, put a hyphen in there". < 1276370412 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*want < 1276370417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: FOR FUCKING FUCK'S SAKE, I'M WRITING IN ENGLISH! < 1276370425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swedish use the English "start quotes" both at the start and the end for example < 1276370433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Spanish (iirc) use upside down ones < 1276370440 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and French «quotes like this» < 1276370440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses end quotes, actually. < 1276370444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless I misremember. < 1276370447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sure but the tool should support several languages < 1276370452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, no shit, I want a tool for ENGLISH TEXT. < 1276370455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it fucking shouldn't! < 1276370457 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1276370458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1276370475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: alise: you're arguing different arguments here < 1276370477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to type "abc" and get “abc”, I really did not sign up for your overengineering class. < 1276370477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you have against non English people? < 1276370484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh my fucking god you are retarded. < 1276370484 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise wants a tool that exists right now for something that she wants to do < 1276370496 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and AnMaster wants a tool that doesn't exist yet that would solve these sorts of problems in the future < 1276370502 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so AnMaster clearly wants something rather more general < 1276370510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and I don't see the issue with this < 1276370512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have nothing against foreign people apart from Swedes, who have a member so stupid that all the contributions of other Swedes are instantly wiped out. < 1276370535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, olsner isn't that bad < 1276370539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you two could agree on what you were debating about, perhaps you'd have a chance at agreeing on something < 1276370547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the comedian. < 1276370550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, good point < 1276370566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think what I'm talking about is ever unclear, as AnMaster is the only person who ever wildly misinterprets it < 1276370571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect it is intentional. < 1276370586 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1276370599 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: actually, I don't think it is; AnMaster tends to jump to an interpretation once and then stubbonly hold onto it despite anything that happens in the conversation < 1276370603 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a different phenomenon < 1276370612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and why are we not allowed to let the discussion float freely and extend it in some direction? is this some sort of strictly controlled debate in TV? < 1276370613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever it is it's irritating. < 1276370630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: one thing that's necessary to have a discussion is someone else who wants to discuss on that subject < 1276370640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you will note that everyone else in here has a freely flowing discussion /apart/ from you < 1276370644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes, but alise doesn't seem to be very good at that either < 1276370644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is continually held up on one interpretation < 1276370646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and argues it to the death < 1276370653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that's a lie, you won't note it ... < 1276370664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I have a freely flowing discussion with everyone but you though < 1276370672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1276370673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I would argue the problem isn't on my end < 1276370691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the amount of times i've read a log where oerjan, oklopol or even ais523 just give up and resort to facepalming when talking to you... < 1276370703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it is mostly you < 1276370707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't bother answering, I know what -- < 1276370711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, how did I possibly guess < 1276370711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, for jokes I agree < 1276370713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1276370721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it may be true, but not in general < 1276370730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anyone wants to talk to me they can /msg me or something, this is a waste of time when nobody else is talking < 1276370731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1276371049 0 :vuvuzello!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :lament < 1276371189 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Stop. Drive Sideways. Hammer Time. < 1276371409 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276371419 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am glad I fixed it by now! < 1276371508 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I have to implement SUMMONTYPE_FORWARD,SUMMONTYPE_LOGIN,SUMMONTYPE_SENDTOTTY but I am unsure how to implement those < 1276371568 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I should document these features so that other people can use them. < 1276371775 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know where I can get help with these things? < 1276372394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm afraid not < 1276372410 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any channels more closely related to what you're trying to do? < 1276372506 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276373191 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know. That is why I ask? < 1276373200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know either < 1276373211 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm suggesting various lines of thought you might want to take < 1276373683 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.125.91 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276373701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know of an interpreter for some high-level-ish language with very few system dependencies? < 1276373710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. plain C that doesn't use many standard library functions < 1276373727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps lua? < 1276373765 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Riichi. Kan. Ron. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1276373796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523? I ask you specifically merely because you know things :P < 1276373823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: btw, I got it booting into the chroot, but for some reason making getty run not /sbin/login but a script that calls clear and then exec login ... makes it show the username screen, but hang indefinitely after entering username < 1276373824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps < 1276373825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getty & < 1276373826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getty & < 1276373826 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a lua interp installed, no idea how many dependencies it has < 1276373834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while true; do sleep (nearly forever); done < 1276373837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :made them hang < 1276373838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go figure < 1276373840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it broke. < 1276373848 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it's deliberately kept free of dependencies < 1276373852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ouch, is it unfixable? < 1276373952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fixable by process of "send back to manufacturer and hope they don't try and turn it on, or if they do assume they're oblivious to the fact that the default getty welcome message isn't there (which is likely, they're not going to have their tech team on every case)" < 1276373958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i did last time, except there was no login screen that time < 1276374004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: basically I just want an interp, any interp, to play about with an OS-that-is-almost-entirely-written-in-a-high-level-language < 1276374034 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you should write your own high-level-language for that purpose? < 1276374044 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lua 5.1.4 Copyright (C) 1994-2008 Lua.org, PUC-Rio < 1276374048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am going to, but I'd like to prototype somethin with some other language, first. < 1276374049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simpler. < 1276374105 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm using the official Lua interp < 1276374142 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1276374252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Video = {} < 1276374252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Video:Start = 0xB8000 < 1276374252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :function Video:Put(x, y, col, chr) < 1276374252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : addr = Video:Start + (y * 80) + x < 1276374252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : poke(addr, chr) < 1276374253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : poke(addr+1, col) < 1276374255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end < 1276374257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1276374503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you should have left one getty outside the thing < 1276374507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1276374516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i just didn't think to < 1276374517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and having X available < 1276374673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no x installed < 1276374814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant on host < 1276374832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on host? < 1276374862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er yeah outside the chroot < 1276374893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or did you remove that? < 1276374900 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I wrote a general-purpose C-library generational garbage collector in 340 lines of C :P < 1276374914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor nice. < 1276374939 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't even gotten it to crash yet, with (limited) testing. < 1276374941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, does it support there being memory it doesn't manage? < 1276374960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always found that a bit tricky with boehm-gc if you interface external libraries that does allocation < 1276374965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as most GUI stuff < 1276375001 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has all the same issues that Boehm does, compounded by the fact that there is now a strict line between "types allocated by GGGGC" and "types allocated by users", so you can't just malloc() one of your own things. < 1276375024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GGGGC? < 1276375027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it stand for < 1276375029 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the name of it. < 1276375037 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor's General-purpose Generational Garbage Collector < 1276375045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: the C is ugly < 1276375048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it a g < 1276375049 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The reason for the line is that it's non-conservative and requires write-barriers to maintain cross-generation writes) < 1276375055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :garbage ... some synonym of collector starting with a g < 1276375056 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I couldn't think of a way to :P < 1276375057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, XD < 1276375065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grabber < 1276375066 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think these rules are flawed http://safalra.com/other/mahjong-rules/ < 1276375068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of collector < 1276375077 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Except that they're not called Garbage Grabbers :P < 1276375081 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OHYEAH ALSO < 1276375084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are now < 1276375090 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unrelated: alise: What does the word "litter" mean to you? < 1276375100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call it G5 for short < 1276375103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, so it will make interfacing a lot of libraries a pain < 1276375118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, stuff like ncurses and so on all malloc stuff < 1276375128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck even some glibc functions do < 1276375131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Two things; cat/other animal litter, which said animals poop in, and rubbish/crap, except with a connotation of being dropped carelessly, such as out of a car or on the street. < 1276375133 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, malloc still works and all, it's just cross-library pointers that are obnoxious. < 1276375135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, littering. < 1276375136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1276375144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's mainly the latter one, though. < 1276375147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno why I put the first one first. < 1276375172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, hm < 1276375182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, can't see why < 1276375182 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: In Canada, litter is strictly a synonym with garbage/rubbish/trash. The trash cans say "litter" on them. I found that ultra-confusing since that's totally not litter when you put it in the bin :P < 1276375204 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You have to declare any pointers from non-managed code to managed code, since it's not conservative. < 1276375210 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I've never heard of that; litter is definitely not a synonym for garbage out here (Alberta) < 1276375219 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: CONFUSED. < 1276375223 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, in Toronto then :P < 1276375229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah < 1276375231 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Confirmed by Torontonian guy I know. < 1276375242 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's Toronto < 1276375245 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: s/code/data/ there obviously. < 1276375259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, so any static variables are not handled? < 1276375268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc boehm auto add those < 1276375289 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Boehm doesn't auto-add them, it scans your entire static space and conservatively guesses what might be pointers. < 1276375320 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: A non-conservative collector has the advantage of being fast, and the disadvantage that you have to declare ALL pointers from non-managed to managed space (that includes the stack!) < 1276375358 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: GGGGC is meant to be used by a VM, not random-program-wanting-GC-X ;) < 1276375374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Liberal collectors ftw. < 1276375384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yeah I meant it auto adds the .bss and .data to the area to scan for pointers < 1276375386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly it requires a lot of bookkeeping in e.g., C, but then so does C code in general. < 1276375402 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And it's well worth it. < 1276375409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, sorry if it wasn't clear < 1276375421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: So your collector is liberal? Good. < 1276375460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, so does it need to know what is pointers and what is data in managed space? < 1276375477 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes and no. You need to declare your managed types with a special macro to tell it. < 1276375507 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then you don't need to explicitly declare pointers later, since it knows your types. < 1276375547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Plof! < 1276375554 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Why, what a wonderful idea! ;) < 1276375563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holy shit, Plof's new website has the worst colours I have ever experienced! < 1276375565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you colour blind! < 1276375568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, hm < 1276375572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My eyes runneth over... with BLOOD! < 1276375581 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The point is that if you want conservative collection to make your life easier, you use Boehm. If you are willing to take on an extra burden of bookkeeping, you'll get a speed boost. < 1276375582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Ha ha, I see you finally adopted my ideas of dropping parens from function calls and also semicolons. < 1276375583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, doesn't it need to know what allocation is what type? < 1276375585 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: WHY THANK YOU. < 1276375589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: This is because I am a genius. < 1276375601 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. I believe that was on the order of days after you suggested them. < 1276375609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, but you actually implemented it. < 1276375613 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1276375614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, link btw? didn't see any < 1276375623 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://codu.org/projects/ggggc/ < 1276375631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1276375643 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the major restrictions are written out there. < 1276375652 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what would happen if we banned alise from thinking about Haskell for a month < 1276375664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Do I think about Haskell a lot? Not really, these days. < 1276375672 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: He would think about ML a lot? :P < 1276375676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, where is the dropped parens stuff? < 1276375691 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://plof.codu.org/ :P < 1276375695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, oh misread then < 1276375701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prepare for AnMaster to complain about them. < 1276375713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, thought you were doing some insane macro hack in C to avoid () in function calls XD < 1276375714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: A gripe with the specification: you have the header of a table as the last thing on a page, before all the rows. < 1276375727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Prepare for AnMaster to complain about them. <-- about what? < 1276375729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There may be some TeX variable to tweak to set this to be really-bad, but I'd just insert an explicit page break beforehand. < 1276375735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the lack of parens < 1276375740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why should I? < 1276375744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is quite nice... < 1276375746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you'd hate it. < 1276375754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, this isn't lisp! < 1276375769 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Feh, sometimes LaTeX doesn't play nice >_> < 1276375771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway, lots of languages do it without parens < 1276375774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: BTW, I assume you have that "foo.bar" is the function-pointer to foo.bar, i.e. you need to do "foo.bar()" for that one case? < 1276375781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, what is the fnptr syntax? &foo.bar? < 1276375782 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm actually a little bit surprised that it doesn't do that automatically. < 1276375793 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 'fraid you do need () for that, yeah. < 1276375795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's LaTeX. TeX is obsessively tuned, LaTeX not so much. < 1276375810 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The reason is I have no types, so it has no idea whether x.y is a function or just a field. < 1276375829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, dynamically typed < 1276375829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1276375839 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even that's pushing it X-D < 1276375850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You could have that if a method name ends in ?, then "foo.bar?" is "foo.bar? ()". < 1276375854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That's a kludge, but meh. < 1276375860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah, worse than bash? < 1276375860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It would mean that you could do things like < 1276375863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if frobs.nicated? < 1276375865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of the awful < 1276375872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if frobs.are_nicated () < 1276375884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, very lispy < 1276375914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but its use in an OOP language is borrowed from Ruby. A generally awful language, but there you go; it's one nice point about it. < 1276375924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1276375932 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEED LUNCH < 1276375933 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye < 1276375944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Also, if you want to go even further with the Ruby ^W Scheme influence, you can have foo.bar! for mutating things too :P < 1276375948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I heard it was ruby on rails that was bad, not ruby as such? But I guess that is just comparatively speaking? < 1276375961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ruby on Rails is indeed awful. Ruby isn't an awful language, okay, compared to current ones. < 1276375965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just compared to the ideal, it's awful. < 1276375976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276375982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, no matter what metric you use, as long as it isn't totally retarded, Ruby will definitely be placed not far below Python. < 1276375989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: Python zealot metric is considered totally retarded.) < 1276375998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the most it'll be somewhere above Python. < 1276376013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python on parachutes < 1276376017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should like totally be done < 1276376065 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python on grails < 1276376075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grails actually exists, for Groovy. < 1276376079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, not an alliteration < 1276376096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeX on Trams < 1276376098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, groovy? *sounds familiar, slightly* < 1276376106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :groovy is one of those jvm languages. < 1276376106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C on Catamarans? < 1276376110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah < 1276376113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C on Caterpults < 1276376114 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's perfect for python < 1276376118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(TECO on Trams also) < 1276376125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Verilog on Vespas < 1276376131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL too? < 1276376137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELISP on? < 1276376138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure :P < 1276376143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp on Locomotives < 1276376147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and elisp? < 1276376159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1276376161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276376162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM < 1276376164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assembler? < 1276376174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assembly on Aeroplanes < 1276376175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assembler on asses! < 1276376177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276376191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice link < 1276376205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it actually more than a joke page? < 1276376212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1276376220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*phew* < 1276376239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eiffel on ... ? < 1276376250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1276376272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :electric cars? < 1276376273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1276376277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be one word < 1276376293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, D on? < 1276376303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D on Dromedaries < 1276376306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1276376314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell on ... < 1276376318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hogs? < 1276376323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1276376323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1276376336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :APL on Arks < 1276376346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, J on? < 1276376357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... don't ask me! < 1276376366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276376378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else is there < 1276376389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ML on? < 1276376399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ML on Mexican Slaves < 1276376404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1276376434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, smalltalk on? < 1276376440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1276376442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sex Robots? < 1276376445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1276376452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we are moving away from the area now < 1276376460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, doesn't matter though < 1276376465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, okay Forth on? < 1276376484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of anything funny for it < 1276376509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth on ... Flatulence < 1276376521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1276376560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh wait for D, dirigibles is better than dromedaries < 1276376577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z notation on Zeppelins < 1276376586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z notation? < 1276376590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that now again < 1276376595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rings a bell, somewhere < 1276376616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dijkstra's formalised ZFC+lambda calculus definition language thing. < 1276376619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276376620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, BankStar on bunnies? < 1276376630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BancStar on Busoms < 1276376637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :busoms? < 1276376648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even aspell with webster doesn't know it < 1276376672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, could be busses though < 1276376705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Bosoms < 1276376705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL on ...? < 1276376705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typo. < 1276376709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276376713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intercity trains? < 1276376732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL on Imagery < 1276376735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno :P < 1276376738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously using ruby on rail gauge < 1276376747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which brings us to a full circle or something < 1276376864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, befunge on boats < 1276376867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any language on L? < 1276376871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for lisp < 1276376910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :need something for lorries and something for llamas < 1276376916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(spelling for latter?) < 1276376983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1276377000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, to fetch the llama? < 1276377253 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-192-87.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276377774 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276377876 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1276377980 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h184.34.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276378008 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: you around? < 1276378025 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or anyone who knows anything about "OTP design principles" < 1276378032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try AnMaster (ha) < 1276378123 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm around but I don't know anything about them < 1276378178 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: do /you/ know anything about OTP design principles? < 1276378195 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if I need to actually care about them in order to reap the benefits of hot swappable code. < 1276378228 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if so, whether or not every process needs to implement a behavior or if I can just use proc_tools < 1276378355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I know about them. One branch of efunge uses it (not trunk). But you can get the hot swappable code otherwise too. It is just that it is easier with using the OTP stuff < 1276378377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I recommend that ebook I mentioned. it has a lot on that, and isn't heading for bed < 1276378392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course I could know where you could find one for free. But that wouldn't be legal < 1276378399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's the second funniest thing you've ever said < 1276378401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the second-funniest < 1276378408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the second (funny thing) < 1276378414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should have said *funny. < 1276378421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("and isn't heading for bed") < 1276378564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, if not doing OTP (not even custom OTP process) then the basic idea is that calls without the module name to your own module always refer to the same version of that module. But if it has module name then it will always refer to the newest < 1276378577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so calling the main loop of the new one with full module name would be how you switch over < 1276378592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: could you rate an idea on the scale of 0 to 10? < 1276378594 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... I might use some of OTP anyways. supervisor looks useful. < 1276378604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, gen_server is very useful I find < 1276378612 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: depends on what sort of idea it is < 1276378617 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I understand I have to use proc_tools to spawn processes that use OTP? < 1276378617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, iirc there is some nice google talk presentation on erlang < 1276378625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever they call(ed?) them < 1276378669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, well, with OTP you use stuff like gen_server:start_link or such in general to start them < 1276378697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, also don't you mean proc_lib? < 1276378699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: To publish a half-web-newspaper, half-web-magazine in both webpage and TeX (along with various outputs of TeX) formats, on some sort of regular basis, on the topics of programming language, operating systems and user interfaces research, and also general #esoteric-esque topics, tentatively titled The Untitled Document. < 1276378717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With diverse contributions thusly from various peoplefolk. < 1276378731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ambitious < 1276378733 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's a good idea if you can get the regular contributions in < 1276378740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's not terribly ambitious < 1276378740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems vaguely unlikely that that would happen < 1276378756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, getting people to write for it < 1276378756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Write some stuff, get other people to write some stuff, do this on a semi-regular type basis, then put it on the internet" < 1276378773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, I'll just use a bunch of Mexican slaves < 1276378784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, anyway proc_lib is for when not using standard OTP behaviours like gen_server or gen_fsm < 1276378790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, which I used exactly once < 1276378790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would also contain links to interestingish stuff too, so I could just pad the thing out with them :P < 1276378802 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1276378820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, gen_server is in general very nice, it was just something that needed running 100% of the time (the main befunge threads) that used custom OTP process < 1276378895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gen_server is kind of event driven. As in, in the natural state it waits for a message and then runs the callback code < 1276378908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you can set a timeout of 0, but that is rather hackish < 1276378915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha -- classic quote from Programming Perl (ais523 might enjoy this), at the bottom of a summary of scalars and "Is a name for": < 1276378930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typeglob * [Example] *struck [Is a name for:] Everything named struck < 1276378955 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hmmm... so when writing code that can be hotswapped I need to prefix all function calls with ?MODULE?... that doesn't sound right. < 1276378985 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... just the "main loop" one. < 1276378991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, no, only the switchover place. In general you don't want to switch anywhere in a module. Rather something like sending a message "switch now" < 1276378991 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: heh < 1276378993 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point where the change should happen < 1276378994 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaaah < 1276378995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it "controlled" < 1276378995 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got it. < 1276379019 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when would this message be sent? < 1276379029 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by me? < 1276379033 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the programmer? in a shell? < 1276379035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds me of the way that in the SCO vs. Novell litigation, you can tell whether all the lawyers and judges think of SCO as one word or three, by looking to see whether they put "a" or "an" before phrases starting with "SCO" < 1276379049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, well, depends. OTP kind of solves this for you ;P < 1276379052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amongst other things < 1276379061 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... so that's why it's easier to use OTP. < 1276379086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "An SCO", definitely. < 1276379087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ess cee oh. < 1276379090 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could see myself using gen_server and supervisor... so I guess I'll go ahead and put the effort into learning how it works. < 1276379101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, one of several reasons. It handles some corner cases with calls between processes where one dies during the call and such in a graceful way too. Something that could be tricky to get right < 1276379103 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's how I do it too < 1276379110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least without experience < 1276379111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: because there are two companies of note: the Santa Cruz Operation and The SCO Group. < 1276379119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(differing capitalisation of "the" intentional) < 1276379123 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1276379133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does "The SCO Group" even officially expand to "The Santa Cruz Operation Group"? I doubt it < 1276379148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed not < 1276379149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, so do you want that ebook? < 1276379162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, the stuff about the strict type checking is *way* outdated in it though < 1276379166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nice in other places < 1276379170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: really, if I was doing this from the start I would call them, say, TSG and Santa Cruz to disambiguate. < 1276379179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1276379189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen oldSCO vs. tSCOg on Groklaw < 1276379194 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are pretty unambiguous < 1276379202 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'll look at it. Something that explains std libraries and OTP well would be beneficial... but I understand the language basics. < 1276379207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: SCOld < 1276379216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, well okay *fiddles with DCC* < 1276379222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: groklaw appears to think that SCO cannot possibly do anything now, but you said they could make a ridiculous appeal < 1276379223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's right? < 1276379234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: groklaw think they could do a ridiculous appeal too < 1276379237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1276379238 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just think it has no chance of succeeding < 1276379244 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm inclined to agree < 1276379244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I bet they will, though, just to drag this on < 1276379254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can still drag it on indefinitely at this point, right? < 1276379258 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have nothing to lose, they paid the lawyers in advance < 1276379265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, AnMaster is wondering if there is a limit on appeals, and if they can make it reach the Supreme Court < 1276379270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha, wow, really? < 1276379274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most underpaid lawyers ever < 1276379278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the lawyers have been losing money for years < 1276379281 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure if I know how to use DCC in this client. I'll read some helpfiles. < 1276379282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I guess they were paid to just write fun bullshit for 7 years < 1276379286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is, you know, not a bad job < 1276379293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PJ apparently /hopes/ they appeal, just to financially punish their lawyers further < 1276379305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : also, AnMaster is wondering if there is a limit on appeals, and if they can make it reach the Supreme Court < 1276379334 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in theory it could be appealed up to the level below the supremes < 1276379347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's hope that happens :) < 1276379349 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the supremes themselves would have to accept the appeal for it to happen, and there surely isn't a hope in hell of that happening < 1276379350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276379353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION prods router < 1276379356 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so in using OTP... would it also be a good idea to use all the application/release file stuff? Is that actually how it helps you with hotswapping? < 1276379364 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Novell did appeal SCO's appeal to the supremes, though < 1276379374 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it may end up there in any case, via a different method < 1276379378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, spreadsheets are interesting pieces of software. < 1276379413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, does it work? < 1276379442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, *prod* < 1276379469 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says it can't connect < 1276379471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, well the application release stuff is supposed to help with hot swapping in an enterprise environment I think. < 1276379474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, strange. < 1276379511 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might utilize if it actually becomes an open source project or something... but I doubt that will happen. < 1276379527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: awesome < 1276379540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how much money does SCO not have by now? < 1276379548 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody knows, except presumably SCO < 1276379556 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're several months behind on their mandatory financial statements < 1276379565 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even the ones they have released don't make a whole lot of sense < 1276379573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I haven't tried hot swaping code in befunge yet. So who knows. it should work though. And release thing will help for upgrading "production" systems < 1276379584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be possible without it during development, but never tried < 1276379584 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what about the application resource file? Is that how I would create portable binaries? < 1276379605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do they actually have money, though? < 1276379617 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they got a loan a while back < 1276379618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, you won't get rid of the vm if that is what you mean. Why should you? You can created scaled down erlang stuff with just the parts needed < 1276379621 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from a former board member < 1276379626 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably, although they're running through it pretty quickly < 1276379630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of idiot would loan SCO money? < 1276379632 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also, you could try DCC again. < 1276379636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, kay < 1276379643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the terms of the loan said that if SCO defaults, he gets everything they own < 1276379644 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Portable in the sense that it packages the VM with it < 1276379655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what upsets me? a bunch of the companies that existed before tSCOg were cool < 1276379669 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the theory is that they're planning to divert the money to various insiders, then default and get all the rest of the money to insiders too < 1276379671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't it caldera that released a bunch of the unix source iirc? < 1276379675 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the board member gets his money back that way < 1276379677 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah, doesn't work. I assume I'm doing the right thing by just doing DCC GET < 1276379681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In 2002, Caldera joined with SuSE Linux, Turbolinux and Conectiva to form United Linux in an attempt to standardize Linux distributions.[16] Later that year, CEO Ransom Love left the company and was replaced by Darl McBride, and the company changed its name to The SCO Group. < 1276379687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, don't know what client you have < 1276379692 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irssi < 1276379698 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :command-line client < 1276379701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I switched to xchat for this since ERC doesn't do DCC < 1276379708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I double checked all settings < 1276379713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long live bouncers < 1276379716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :community/mailx-heirloom 12.4-3 < 1276379716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : MUA command line tool (mailx) < 1276379716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aur/heirloom-doctools 061114-1 (4) < 1276379716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The Heirloom Documentation Tools consist of a modern roff suite. < 1276379716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aur/heirloom-sh 050706-2 (1) < 1276379717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Traditional sh [jsh(1)], derived from OpenSolaris code. < 1276379722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not as comprehensive as I'd like... < 1276379724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm sure it should not interfere with things < 1276379744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, and yeah I know nothing about dcc in irssi < 1276379769 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try one more time. I turned auto-get on just to see if it makes any difference. < 1276379792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, now? < 1276379800 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolnope < 1276379819 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how file transfer protocols inside messaging protocols never work. < 1276379827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[The distribution contains a script to convert OpenDocument files to troff input. This allows troff to act as typesetting application in a production scheme where authors hand in office documents.]] < 1276379832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting the mix of old & new contained in Heirloom. < 1276379857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, hm got any other way to send it? I don't like the idea of putting it up anywhere, apart from not having a host for it < 1276379917 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for large files I usually use yousendit.com < 1276379932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, this isn't something I want to put anywhere public < 1276379942 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's not technically publically releasing < 1276379946 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's specifically for sending to one person < 1276379951 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1276379955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, also site times out for me < 1276379957 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it /can/ be accessed by a link < 1276379960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :filebin.ca < 1276379970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :randomised filenames, so < 1276379971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, see about public... < 1276379978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: /msg the url then < 1276379987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, set up an ftp server? < 1276379991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ssh shell < 1276379994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for scping it < 1276379996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like the apache logs will reveal anything more than a probably-changed-by-the-time-some-crazy-law-enforcement-catches-up-with-you IP < 1276379998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i give up < 1276380004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(locked down to only do file transfer) < 1276380009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: get it elsewhere, AnMaster will have you setting up a paranoia-ready system which will take years < 1276380024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, you saw the filename at least? < 1276380037 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: to be honest I have never had a need to do that before and thus don't know how. < 1276380041 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1276380082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got it in 2007. Found it lying on a cd in a _bay_. Very water resistant I guess.. < 1276380103 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yousendit.com works for me btw. Basically what you do is you upload the file and then it emails me a link to it. The link is garbled so it's not really "public"... though technically it is. < 1276380105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlikely to still be there < 1276380115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, hm. < 1276380124 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno why it would be timing out < 1276380127 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just accessed it. < 1276380138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, seems to be redirecting to itself now < 1276380171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I need to sleep. sorry. Try finding that ebook elsehwhere. Otherwise I will be around tomorrow (European time) for trying again < 1276380208 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alrighty/ < 1276380347 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once attempted to write a Python MUD server that would have been ridiculous had I ever completed all the ridiculous and unnecessary features. < 1276380416 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular... I got it to a point where I could serialize everything to a file, and dynamically edit the source code of functions and recompile them. < 1276380436 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it would have been like MOO in Python. < 1276380800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :``abc'' < 1276380808 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1276380826 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@82.66.176.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276380958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the intercal documentation is texinfo, right? < 1276380967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1276380971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the new documentation < 1276380975 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the old documentation's *roff < 1276380982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Your IP address, 91.105.125.91, has been recorded as possibly belonging to a spammer, robot, or some such abomination. If you wish to confirm that you are not a human being, please go to this page where you will be added to our blacklists. Thank you." < 1276380984 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with vague attempts to make it work with more than one implementation < 1276380985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*"Your < 1276380990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope that doesn't do anything unless I click that link :-) < 1276380998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: presumably ugly *roff, too < 1276381009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not awful, but it's not perfect either < 1276381012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# Download C-INTERCAL via gopher (IPv6 only)." < 1276381019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You made my dream a reality! Or at least, CLC did. < 1276381065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: bug report < 1276381066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://c.intercal.org.uk/manual/io61sroi.htm#convickt < 1276381072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`...' quotes are not being converted < 1276381073 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1276381075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that everywhere? < 1276381078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, get that fixed! < 1276381099 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next time you have to figure out the way to write the INTERCAL documentation in INTERCAL?? < 1276381102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if it's being output as text, texinfo does indeed output as `...' < 1276381110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's HTML < 1276381113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ouc < 1276381115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ouch < 1276381121 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: in HTML too IIRC, its HTML output isn't very good < 1276381127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: remember when I tried to spec up that semantic documentation format? < 1276381132 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the CLC-INTERCAL licence agreement used to require compilation < 1276381145 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it triggered all sorts of deep recursion errors, and in the end became unmaintainable < 1276381196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you invented OIL, didn't you? < 1276381207 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1276381216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you're crazy < 1276381229 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the optimiser was getting unmaintainable < 1276381232 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276381239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easier to maintain the DSL for writing optimisers in, plus an optimiser written in it < 1276381243 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than it was to maintain the old hardcoded mess < 1276381261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try reading the output of compiled OIL some time; the C source used to look much like that, with more meaningful variable names < 1276381517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Openbsd37withjwm.png < 1276381522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you were looking for an easy system to illegally access? < 1276381614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION recalls when he ran Windows 95 for a few days in a fullscreen VM < 1276381622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc someone mentioned it recently < 1276381625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably ais523 remembers it < 1276381637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do < 1276381701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you remember what I thought of it? I forget my exact opinions < 1276381825 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is considering paying $5 on occasion to access CT for a month < 1276381833 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276381848 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not continuous $5/month, CT isn't valuable enough to me to do that, but it's nice to visit every once in a while < 1276381914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers what existing programs constitute an office suite that doesn't suck < 1276381976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :word processor: ?; not latex, for quicker things that you want to see immediately -- spreadsheet: ? -- presentation: latex with beamer, or some html5-based thing or something < 1276382219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have implemented Liang's hyphenation algorithm in Emacs Lisp. Up to now I can type M-x hyphen-show-hyphens and Emacs displays the syllables of the word at point in the echo area. The package supports multiple languages, hyphenation exceptions, and all the other features known from TeX. What still is to do is to merge word hyphenation into Emacs' filling modes–which is not that easy < 1276382221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*easy. < 1276382223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so close, yet so far :( < 1276382488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh, refill-mode set to full justification + longlines-mode + refill-mode = you can't type two spaces in a row < 1276382527 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1276383339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh, that netbook I was hacking yesterday, they seem to have replaced it with a version running windows ce < 1276383343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better! < 1276383375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The UbiSurfer delivers the real web, fast and FREE!" ;; for some definition of fast < 1276383388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The UbiSurfer downloads web pages faster than any other mobile netbook connected on any 3G network and with full graphics and Java TM support. ;; ok, so it does 3g now. < 1276383429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, gprs still. < 1276383530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The device provides a full QWERTY keyboard and uses a touchpad mouse pointer instead of touch screen." < 1276383664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I designed a networking infrastructure that is utterly secure and has no problems with identifying the destination and source of a packet. It is also completely impractical. < 1276383698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Win A UbiSurfer Netbook" ;; but why would you WANT to? < 1276383786 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1276384009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what data structures make spreadsheets efficient. < 1276384039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need dependents, i.e. cells this cell depends on, really, but instead dependers: i.e. a function from a cell to all cells that mention it -- for recalculation < 1276384774 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some kind of crazy rocket science! < 1276384814 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah... the next logical step in all of this spreadsheet talk is... < 1276384828 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you implement a simple turing machine in a spreadsheet? < 1276384835 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easily < 1276384841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're allowed circular references < 1276384849 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think most allow that. < 1276384852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even without, if you can range-fill infinitely both down and right < 1276384854 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most do allow that < 1276384864 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1276384868 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, I've used four different spreadsheet programs and they all allow it, although often they need an option < 1276385009 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm wondering how I can make a gen_server a supervisor < 1276385020 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason I'm having a very hard time reasoning about how to use OTP the right way. < 1276385408 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1276385534 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the amount of times i've read a log where oerjan, oklopol or even ais523 just give up and resort to facepalming when talking to you... < 1276385544 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't think i did it _that_ often... < 1276385553 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalms on general principles < 1276385570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you've done it quite a few times before < 1276385573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only when talking to AnMaster though :p < 1276385581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say. < 1276385599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing machine in spreadsheet is easy if you can make indirect addresses < 1276385605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming cells default to 0 < 1276385654 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh i certainly agree that AnMaster is the one i tend to associate with that sort of thing. and maybe zzo38, but in a different way. < 1276385774 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I've been reading too much OTP documentation. My brain is melted. < 1276385779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(zzo38 tends to look like he assumes everyone _else_ understands him) < 1276385845 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276386299 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION :( at Internet Archive's slowness < 1276386322 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is down a rabbit hole chasing a file that probably doesn't exist < 1276386449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the internet past is disappearing down a black hole... < 1276386632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Haskell on ... <-- helicopters? hovercrafts? < 1276386703 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1276386705 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C on Cocaine < 1276387142 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection