00:00:16 <AnMaster> pineapple, well -j is "more than one job in parallel"
00:00:38 <pineapple> fucked if i can remember all of the options to make
00:01:13 <alise> nslookup? lpr? finger? ftp?
00:01:20 <alise> THESE ARE ALL PROGRAMS A WINDOWS USER DOES NOT NEED, FRIENDS.
00:01:28 <alise> oh. they're only 300 kilobytes
00:01:30 <alise> okay you can have them
00:01:43 <pineapple> a poweruser might need them... but they likely have better alternatives
00:02:05 <pineapple> a power user is likely not using windows xp
00:02:06 <alise> extra fonts... georgia is not rarely used!
00:02:17 <alise> OTOH 1.92 megs... and it obliterates Impact and Comic Sans...
00:02:47 <alise> Help Engine? HAHAHA
00:02:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:02:49 <alise> EXPERTS NEED NO HELP
00:03:37 <alise> Search Assistant: "That annoying animated dog in the search window."
00:04:25 <pineapple> alise: i take it you're ok with using the classic windows theme
00:04:41 <pineapple> i wonder if the xp theme can be removed
00:17:26 <Sgeo> alise, when was the G3 made?
00:19:00 <pikhq> alise: Hmm. Any reason for slimming down XP so much?
00:19:19 <alise> Sgeo: iBook? iMac?
00:20:22 <Sgeo> "Because the Mac cannot currently do multi-user VR. The current blaxxun Contact (needed for 3D in Cybertown) requires the Microsoft COM architecture. Microsoft has announced that they plan to port it to the Mac. However, until there is a solid COM implementation on the Mac, the Macintosh version is not likely to be developed. However, blaxxun Contact should run in the Windows 95 emulation on the latest Macs (e.g. G3) - albeit slowly. "
00:21:11 <Sgeo> Had to have been written before 2004 or so, since the same page claims that Cybertown is free
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00:21:35 <alise> g3 imac is first imac 1998
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00:23:25 * alise lets nlite rrrrrrrrrrrrrrip
00:24:07 <alise> REMOVING EVERYTHING
00:26:36 <alise> pikhq: this thing will install on an original ibm pc when i'm done with it
00:27:41 -!- charlls has joined.
00:27:54 <pikhq> alise: So... DOS then.
00:28:02 <alise> pikhq: "Finished! Total size is 112.53MB"
00:28:09 <alise> "The installation was reduced by 493.76MB."
00:28:19 <pikhq> Spiffy. You got it smaller than Slax.
00:28:28 <pikhq> Of course, Slax probably includes a whole lot more.
00:28:54 <alise> pikhq: this thing doesn't even have a defragmenter
00:28:59 <pikhq> Like a calculator...
00:29:04 <alise> I christen it "MiniXP".
00:29:14 <pikhq> And all of Busybox...
00:29:27 <alise> This isn't even all, though.
00:29:33 <alise> Or, wait, yes it is.
00:29:49 <pikhq> I strongly suspect you yanked out IE.
00:30:25 <pikhq> So you can replace it with the Mozilla ActiveX control or something...
00:30:29 <alise> Err, actually, did I remember to?
00:32:24 <alise> pikhq: Hell, I even removed the *fancy installer*. It has a black background and the Windows 2000 style now.
00:32:37 <pikhq> That is such a better installer.
00:32:42 <pikhq> Also significantly faster.
00:32:51 <alise> pikhq: Of course there is one problem.
00:33:00 <pikhq> (yes, the fancy installer is absurdly slow for no good reason)
00:33:06 <alise> I don't think I will get a chance to test this until next week! :-(
00:33:18 <pikhq> Should install in like 10 minutes.
00:33:47 <pikhq> Actually faster; that's just the speed gain you get from removing the fancy installer.
00:34:19 <alise> pikhq: haha lol @ how quick setup is copying files went
00:34:48 <alise> pikhq: Of course, this thing probably has tons of little incompatibilities that you will grow to hate in time.
00:35:08 <pikhq> Yes, but it should support Cygwin.
00:35:10 <alise> Hell, for a start, you need to download a browser via *FTP*!
00:35:35 <pikhq> The idea of having Windows XP solely for a Cygwin install amuses me. ;)
00:36:13 <alise> And I christen thee new installation: mini.
00:36:31 <alise> Man, if only it wasn't illegal to sell this.
00:38:15 <alise> pikhq: Wow, it logs in in like... 0 seconds.
00:38:52 <pikhq> Congrats, you removed the bloat.
00:39:02 <pikhq> I'd imagine you could run that sucker on a 386 with ease.
00:39:04 <alise> C:\WINDOWS weighs in at 264 MiB.
00:39:22 <Gregor> Oh come on. I won't be impressed until it fits on a floppy.
00:39:34 <Gregor> I'll grant you a 2.88MB floppy out of kindness.
00:39:41 <alise> pikhq: 20 MiB of RAM being used.
00:39:48 <pikhq> alise: Remove everything!
00:39:54 <alise> Oddly high CPU usage, but eh.
00:39:58 <Gregor> Who needs comctl.dll???
00:40:04 <pikhq> But, dang. 20 MB? That's impressive.
00:40:25 <pikhq> Gregor: Strictly speaking, all you need is ntkrnl.exe and a handful of binaries.
00:40:42 <pikhq> Granted, you won't be running Win32 at all, but you will have Windows NT running. :)
00:40:59 <alise> Can I have a link to an FTP Firefox download?
00:41:06 <alise> That I will use to install, say, Opera, then remove Firefox (it's bloaty!)
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00:41:53 <pikhq> How's about an Opera download?
00:41:55 <pikhq> http://ftp.opera.com/pub/opera/win/1053/en/Opera_1053_en_Setup.exe
00:42:03 <alise> No web browser, remember?
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00:42:09 <pikhq> s/http/ftp/ should work.
00:42:34 <alise> Okay, um, I've forgotten how to use ftp.exe
00:42:58 <Gregor> And how big is this WASTEFUL ftp.exe you've included just to satiate your pathetic need to download stuff?
00:42:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:43:03 <pikhq> Now login as anonymous...
00:43:09 <alise> Gregor: The whole set of command line tools was just 300 KiB :P
00:43:15 <pikhq> Then: cd pub/opera/win/1053/en/
00:43:15 <alise> Including edit.com and edlin.com and xcopy.com and ...
00:43:24 <pikhq> get Opera_1053_en_Setup.exe
00:44:56 <Sgeo> Firefox is more bloaty than Opera?
00:45:14 <pikhq> Gecko is, like, *made* of bloat.
00:46:22 <pikhq> *It implements its own GUI library that acts nonnatively everywhere*.
00:47:18 <pikhq> All so you can use Javascript/HTML/XUL/CSS as a UI language...
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00:58:32 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/367571/detecting-infinite-loop-in-brainfuck-program
01:03:35 <Sgeo> "How come a source code control system is participating in the World Cup ? First, the encryption algorithm and now this. I blame Sepp Blatter"
01:03:43 <Sgeo> http://identi.ca/andyc?page=2
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01:30:25 <Gregor> Sgeo: The title of that discussion = infinite hilarity.
01:34:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: That discussion is hilarious.
01:34:54 <pikhq> "Can I please, please solve the halting problem?"
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01:45:51 <coppro> yeah, his complex system of analyzing it is failing under one basic flaw: that it is indeed possible to determine whether a program halts by running it and seeing what happens
01:46:13 <coppro> incidentally, is it possible to make an aperiodic infinite Turing program?
01:46:46 <coppro> or do all infinite programs necessarily start repeating some identifiable subset of the tape?
01:47:22 <oerjan> coppro: if there were only periodic infinite programs then the halting problem would actually be _solvable_ (well, theoretically)
01:47:44 <oerjan> because you could just run it until it repeated
01:48:38 <coppro> pikhq: There's an obvious periodic repetition there
01:48:55 <coppro> the data on one side is all 0s, the data on the other side is all 1s
01:49:11 <pikhq> Oh, fine, fine. ,[>,]
01:49:27 <oerjan> pikhq: doesn't really count
01:49:36 <coppro> TMs don't have input anyways
01:53:37 <oerjan> sure you can, unless you keep moving the goalpost which just means we'll have to avoid more and more patterns
01:54:25 <coppro> My definition would be this: Construct a Turing Machine that will not halt such that at no point in its execution is it possible to prove that it will not halt.
01:54:55 <coppro> anything else would reduce to that
01:55:43 <oerjan> coppro: how do you know it halts if you cannot prove it?
01:56:07 <coppro> oerjan: I didn't say it was provable. I merely posed the question
01:56:30 <oerjan> now if you have an actual proof system in my mind, i believe you can probably use godel's theorem to do it
01:57:08 <oerjan> basically, construct your turing machine such that is _searches_ for a proof of that system's consistency
01:57:28 <coppro> No, it would be impossible to prove the existence of such a TM
01:57:37 <coppro> since that would mean you'd proven it wouldn't halt
01:57:46 <coppro> which would cause it to fail the criteria
01:58:01 <oerjan> coppro: no, godel's theorem gets around that
01:58:41 <coppro> I suppose you could prove the existence of such a machine without ever proving which one it was
01:58:43 <oerjan> because the logical system cannot prove its own consistency
01:59:00 <coppro> yeah, I know the theorem, but how does it apply here?
01:59:11 <oerjan> coppro: oh actually it's "easy" to write down a specific machine given the logic
01:59:53 <oerjan> coppro: basically you cannot prove in your logic that the tm doesn't halt, but _if_ it halts your logic is inconsistent
01:59:54 <coppro> huh? now you have me really confused
02:00:34 <oerjan> well by logic i mean logic + axioms you assume for your math
02:01:53 <coppro> let us formally state the hypothesis: "There exists a Turing Machine T which, given an input tape I, will not halt, and, for every whole number N, it is impossible, after T has executed N steps, to prove that it will not halt."
02:01:53 <oerjan> coppro: it's "easy" (i.e. just tedious work) to write down a turing machine which searches for proofs of a proposition in a specific logical system
02:02:31 <oerjan> coppro: you _must_ state the proof system you assume in order for that to be well-defined
02:03:14 <oerjan> and once you have done that, you can just construct things with godel's method
02:04:16 <coppro> in any case, no matter which proof system you choose, proving that a given T and I satisfy the theorem is impossible.
02:04:31 <coppro> The best you could do is prove that there exists and T and I.
02:05:05 <oerjan> um no the T and I are _easy_ to construct given the proof system
02:05:19 <oerjan> the hard part is interpreting what you actually know about them
02:05:43 <coppro> Proving that a given T and I satisfy the theorem is contradictory though!
02:06:35 <coppro> Because if you prove that they satisfy the theorem, you prove that they do not halt. And you are not allowed to prove that they do not halt in order for them to satisfy the theorem.
02:07:22 <coppro> hence, you could only prove the existence of some T and I
02:08:11 <oerjan> my head starts swimming :D
02:09:00 <oerjan> er or what the actual idiom that i mean is
02:09:24 <coppro> The non-halting requirement could be removed from the hypothesis, but it's trivial that any halting combination would not satisfy the proof, since after it halts, you can prove that it halts.
02:10:18 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure proving the existence of some T and I is different from proving that Godel's specifically constructed ones fulfil it
02:12:19 <oerjan> i think both _might_ indirectly amount to proving that your logical system is consistent, in itself (thus it's actually inconsistent)
02:12:52 <oerjan> given that once you _start_ talking about things being provable in the same system, you have sort of crossed a line
02:13:13 <coppro> but Godel crossed that line and made off like a bandit
02:13:19 <oerjan> (a consistent system cannot prove that _anything_ is unprovable in the same system)
02:13:44 <oerjan> because "something is unprovable" <=> "the system is consistent"
02:13:58 <coppro> uh, doesn't it prove that the Godel statement is unprovable, or do I misunderstand the theorem?
02:14:35 <oerjan> no, it proves that _if_ the system is consistent, then it's unprovable within it that it is so
02:14:50 <oerjan> (and _that_ is actually proved inside the system)
02:15:47 <oerjan> on the other hand if it is _inconsistent_ then it's provable that it is. as well as that it isn't. :D
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02:30:02 <oerjan> >+[>>+<<[[<]>->[>]>[>]+>+[<]<]>>[>]<] (maybe)
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02:47:01 <Gregor> Now soliciting opinions on http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-wipp6.ogg (played while quite tired, so sorry for all the mistakes :P )
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03:59:34 * uorygl runs that command, then turns his volume down.
03:59:59 <uorygl> Now I'm constantly aware of how many devices are on our network.
04:00:16 <uorygl> Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit. Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit. Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit. Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit.
04:00:24 <oerjan> | _ \ / _ \| \ | |/ ___|
04:00:24 <oerjan> | |_) | | | | \| | | _
04:00:24 <oerjan> | __/| |_| | |\ | |_| |
04:00:24 <oerjan> |_| \___/|_| \_|\____|
04:01:21 <uorygl> This is a surprising number, as it's usually either two or three.
04:01:34 <Sgeo> 100% packet loss
04:01:49 <uorygl> My packet loss is about -400% right now!
04:02:01 <uorygl> For every 100 packets I send out, I get 500 packets back.
04:02:06 <uorygl> Thus, -400 of them are lost.
04:05:28 * uorygl makes it ping every two seconds instead of every second.
04:06:32 <Sgeo> what's the -a?
04:06:46 <uorygl> -a means "beep every time a packet is received".
04:07:25 <uorygl> This can be distracting. :P
04:07:32 <uorygl> "Aiee, how many beeps was that? Only four?"
04:07:46 <Sgeo> Is there any reason that the .255 thing would work on Linux and not Windows?
04:08:06 <Gregor> Because Windoze is teh sux? ^^
04:08:10 <uorygl> What's your IP address and subnet mask?
04:08:34 <Sgeo> IP: 192.168.1.105
04:08:40 <Sgeo> Subnet mask: 255.255.255.0
04:09:46 <uorygl> So if you ping 192.168.1.255, you should get packets back.
04:09:55 <uorygl> Though I don't know if Windows actually responds to pings on that address.
04:10:45 <Sgeo> Shouldn't my router respond?
04:11:53 <Sgeo> Hm, my N1 wants me to use -b
04:12:11 <uorygl> Yeah, it seems it ought to.
04:12:39 <uorygl> This bothers me. I added a new device to the network, and so now ping is saying I'm receiving six packets, but it's only beeping five times.
04:13:15 <Sgeo> On my N1, the router's the only thing that responded
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04:35:39 * Sgeo turns on the lights
04:35:57 <Gregor> I DO NOT WISH TO SEE THE LIGHT
04:36:30 <oerjan> Gregor: you do _not_ want darkness right now, trust me
04:36:56 <Gregor> I can only astral project in complete silence and darkness.
04:37:27 * oerjan peeks anxiously at jabb's ircname
04:37:49 <Gregor> No worries, I have a torch.
04:38:17 <Gregor> Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nigRT2KmCE
04:38:32 <Sgeo> The sad thing is, I only know about that because of User Friendly
04:47:32 <coppro> another 120 stars? wow
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08:14:29 <Sgeo> In case anyone cares, I got the chart wrong
08:14:46 <Sgeo> I mixed up East and West.. or rather, forgot that East is, for reasons unknown, negative
08:34:25 <Sgeo> <alise> Some shitty virtual world
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09:04:35 <pineapple> Sgeo: so you got the handedness of the coordinate system wrong?
09:05:02 <Sgeo> Or, really, just forgot about it. But I thought handedness was rotations?
09:06:10 <pineapple> umm... there's one view where, Y is north, X is east, Z is up, and there's another where Y is up, X is easy, and Z is north
09:06:31 <pineapple> i believe that they are refered to as "left handed" and "right handed", but i forget whuch is which
09:07:07 <pineapple> i think the latter is the more traditional one in mathematical circles, but the former is more common in computer games (such as the quake engine(s))
09:07:29 <pineapple> the main difference is which way the crossproduct points, and a couple of other things
09:09:42 <pineapple> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_coordinate_system - In three demensions
09:10:06 <Sgeo> Y is up, X is west, Z is north
09:12:00 <pineapple> Z up has at least 17 years of history (Doom engine)
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09:18:22 <Sgeo> Hm. I want to become CPR certified
09:21:53 <Rugxulo> did Doom even deal with "up"? I didn't think so (often called 2.5D)
09:22:22 <Rugxulo> e.g. you can shoot an enemy up high from down low without adjusting your gun (although I guess some Doom derivatives probably changed that, can't remember)
09:22:22 <Deewiant> Sure it did, it wasn't flat like Wolfenstein 3D
09:22:35 <Rugxulo> it was semi-flat, mostly fake, not real 3D like Quake, right?
09:22:42 <Sgeo> What does VRML do?
09:23:06 <Sgeo> Oh, I don't think VRML has global coordinates? I remember believing that VRML would never have gravity because of a lack of universal coordinates
09:23:27 <Deewiant> But there was an "up", you just couldn't have two things on top of each other (although some hacks could simulate it)
09:23:29 <Rugxulo> did Rage ever come out yet? (haven't followed it much)
09:24:20 <Sgeo> Adobe Atmosphere is dead?
09:25:36 <Sgeo> Hm. Active Worlds is mentioned on the VRML page, despite not using VRML in any way
09:25:45 <Sgeo> [Unless RenderWare is derived from VRML]
09:26:49 <fizzie> There was a reasonably large (by the standards of the time) VRML model of the Helsinki city centre.
09:27:26 <fizzie> We used to paste an <embed> tag for it into a web-based chat-site (which allowed unfiltered HTML), since loading it tended to make everyone's computer pretty frozen-up.
09:29:07 <Sgeo> fizzie is a troll! Shouldn't be surprised, you've trolled here before, although in a less malicious way
09:29:22 <fizzie> No, the proper verb is "was".
09:31:30 <pineapple> Rugxulo: points of the map must have a specific minimum and maximum... which is why there are a lot of stairs but no slopes
09:35:58 <Rugxulo> the point is you can shoot the guy at the top at bottom or at top without adjusting your gun, which is easier but somewhat unrealistic ;-)
09:36:55 <Rugxulo> BTW, fizzie, haven't heard lately, what's the status of FFI?
09:38:27 <fizzie> There's also left- and right-handed variants of the 3d-graphics-usual "x grows left, y grows up, z is depth" that differ in the direction of growth of the z axis.
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09:39:38 <fizzie> Which one is which is easy to remember by pointing a thumb to the X direction and the index finger to the Y; the way the middle finger points in the left (or right) hand (at least in a standard hand with no modifications, and easily) should be Z.
09:40:35 <Sgeo> "This image was captured using the print screen key, then saved as a PNG image with Paint.NET."
09:40:39 <fizzie> If "FFI" refers to what I call "ff" (that interpreter), no news on that front. I don't have any immediate plans right now.
09:40:59 <Rugxulo> oops, ff3 perhaps was the name? (forgets)
09:41:00 <Sgeo> "x grows left"
09:41:08 <Sgeo> I guess that's what AW is
09:41:39 <Rugxulo> fizzie, my copy is from April 17, and I forgot the URL, so ... ;-)
09:41:53 <fizzie> Yes, though the "3" there is just an accumulator; it's the third attempt now.
09:42:13 <fizzie> http://git.zem.fi/ff last change Sun, 18 Apr 2010 09:47:06 +0000
09:42:29 <Rugxulo> w00t, a whole day's extra code! ^_^
09:49:02 <fizzie> I had some uncommitted changes, which I think didn't quite work out right.
09:51:02 <fizzie> Right, there was a mode for non-self-modifying code, but the savings weren't very big.
09:51:28 <Rugxulo> self-modifying Befunge code or the interpreter itself?
09:51:43 <fizzie> Self-modifying Befunge code. Basically, only data-space change with p.
09:52:57 <fizzie> It does work just fine, though.
09:53:57 <fizzie> It's in the same address now, but it's nothing spectaculatisticar.
09:57:33 <fizzie> What didn't quite work right was an attempt to keep the top stack value in a separate "register stack_cell top_value" local, as opposed to the actual stack; or possibly I just got tired of making the necessary changes.
09:58:41 <Rugxulo> 'cause I think GCC mostly (maybe completely?!) ignores it
09:59:22 <fizzie> It might; mainly I was expecting to get a difference from the "separate local" bit.
10:00:39 <fizzie> It would have simplified !, for example, to just "top_value = !top_value" instead of "top[-1] = !top[-1]; STACK_CHECK_UNOP;".
10:01:21 <fizzie> I guess I should leave optimizing to the optimizer, though; just thought it might be worth a try.
10:04:27 <fizzie> It can't completely ignore the keyword, because it has to be illegal to apply & to something that has the register storage-class specifier. Other than that it could well ignore it.
10:06:36 <fizzie> (Or to be even more nit-picky, it has to cause a diagnostic message.)
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10:15:33 <Rugxulo> "leave optimizing to the optimizer"??? HELL NO!
10:15:53 <Rugxulo> that's why we're in bloatville city, 'cause nobody optimizes anymore
10:16:31 <Rugxulo> this may be a bad example for modern / "enlightened" programming, but I've recently learned some Pascal
10:16:53 <Rugxulo> and heck, TP is fast and small ... beats a lot of other compilers (though doesn't optimize for speed very well, but you get the gist)
10:17:21 <Rugxulo> it's old and 16-bit and obviously deprecated, BUT!! they accomplished a lot with very little
10:28:48 <Rugxulo> long story short: with VP21 I can bind the TP55 (DOS, 8086-friendly) and Win32 (386+, HX-friendly) binaries together
10:29:24 <Rugxulo> argh, sorry, wrong channel ;-)
10:29:55 * Rugxulo sees topic ... "oracles", the database dudes?
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11:15:12 <AnMaster> Firefox can't find the server at www.youtube.com. <-- ?
11:15:33 <AnMaster> and now "500 Internal Server Error"
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12:53:24 <oerjan> 01:11:03 <pineapple> Y up is mathematical tradition
12:53:24 <oerjan> 01:11:12 <pineapple> Z up is Id tech tradition
12:53:41 <oerjan> um no math is definitely X east, Y north, Z up
12:54:13 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Y is up, X is west, Z is north
12:54:34 <oerjan> technically that's also a right-handed one
12:56:39 <oerjan> you can choose X and Y in arbitrary directions at 90 degrees of each other, then one of the choices for Z is left- and one is right-handed
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13:00:08 <oerjan> <fizzie> No, the proper verb is "was".
13:00:37 <oerjan> he made the mistake of going out in sunlight, and now he's a small finnish mountain range
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14:46:44 <AnMaster> and why do mathematicians prefer right handed?
14:46:55 <oerjan> just reverse the direction of any one of the axes
14:47:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, and for the second question?
14:47:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, there are no specific reasons? IIRC there was something with vector product?
14:48:01 <oerjan> well but that's just the same convention
14:48:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is, vector product being simpler in right handed or something
14:48:29 <oerjan> there's no fundamental mathematical reason why we couldn't have chosen left handed instead
14:49:42 <oerjan> in fact there's a thought experiment about communicating with aliens...
14:50:43 * AnMaster waits for oerjan's duck to finish typing ;P
14:51:03 <oerjan> hm i think they might have to be in another universe for the full effect, but anyway
14:51:36 <oerjan> it's hard to actually communicate to the aliens _which_ way we consider left and which we consider right handed
14:51:57 <oerjan> without a common physical reference point
14:52:29 <AnMaster> assuming they use visual stuff
14:52:36 <oerjan> how would you transmit such an image, assuming you had just a bit channel?
14:53:27 <oerjan> ah but how would you tell them which directions the bitmap should be laid out in?
14:53:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, well that is 2D isn't it?
14:54:01 <AnMaster> so you make a frame or such to indicate the width/height
14:54:13 <AnMaster> that means it can be laid out in two ways, they will get an image that can be rotated
14:54:33 <AnMaster> from the frame they can see it match up only in one way
14:55:14 <AnMaster> then depict a 3D rendering of a coordinate system
14:55:21 <oerjan> ah but how would they know they hadn't accidentally constructed the mirror image instead?
14:55:51 <AnMaster> how would that be possible I mean
14:56:36 <AnMaster> either you could confuse x with y in the image, in which case you would get garbage out
14:56:50 <AnMaster> or you could rotate the thing by 90°
14:56:59 <oerjan> well let's say the aliens count x axis as pointing the opposite way of ours...
14:57:00 <AnMaster> hm wait, you could start from bottom or from top
14:57:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, okay then, make a coordinate system using our galaxy and some of the close ones
14:57:42 <oerjan> that would be a common physical reference point yeah
14:58:32 <oerjan> now imagine the communication is through a tiny wormhole into a different spacetime...
14:58:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, but don't you think it would be easier to send an image of a person pointing to the right hand saying "right" in klingon? After all, we all know aliens are mostly just like humans + bad masks ;P
14:59:25 <oerjan> by that argument, we also know there are plenty of mirror universes :D
15:00:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway, I think that before establishing math stuff it might be better to establish language
15:00:33 <oerjan> oh i was sort of assuming that was done already
15:01:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, does it matter which way around the axis are put though
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15:01:28 <oerjan> if you reverse one axis, you reverse handedness
15:01:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, yep and? why is it important
15:02:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, also, is there any way except using physical reference points?
15:03:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm, what about molecules, describe the left/right handed variants there + their effects?
15:03:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, possibly with the process for making one of them (but not getting the other)
15:03:29 <AnMaster> this would work assuming chemistry is the same
15:04:06 <oerjan> no molecules won't work, you could easily make molecules mirrored and they would be practically indistinguishable as long you also mirrored everything you use to test them
15:05:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, then what is the solution?
15:05:22 <oerjan> btw there's a book about this stuff, "The ambidextrous universe"
15:06:04 <oerjan> there is, probably, a way using fundamental physical laws, assuming their spacetime has the same ones. there are subtle particle physics differences between left and right
15:06:56 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ambidextrous_Universe this is what gardner called the ozma problem
15:08:45 <oerjan> i believe there are even newer differences found that work even for the antimatter case mentioned in the final paragraph (so called CP violation)
15:09:37 <oerjan> hm wait that isn't that new either
15:10:07 <oerjan> heh same year as the original book
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16:19:40 <Gregor> Are you making fun of your country's senior citizens?
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16:22:44 <Gregor> Then watch it stagnate and cryyyyyyyyyyyy
16:23:45 <Gregor> The Oracle hath seen OpenSolaris' demise.
16:24:00 <Gregor> You can see its final days!
16:24:27 <Gregor> Officially nothing has been said.
16:25:07 <Gregor> OpenSolaris is about as open as Darwin.
16:25:25 <Gregor> Which is to say, uselessly open. Well, I guess by now they actually have a full boot process that's open ... that's "something"
16:25:40 <Gregor> Anyway, unofficially, NOTHING has been said. With emphasis. Nobody finds that promising :P
16:29:19 <Phantom_Hoover> OpenSolaris at least has a couple of 3rd-party distributions.
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17:17:52 <uorygl> Who's this Per Borgman guy?
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18:47:11 * Sgeo needs to learn to write less-fragile code
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18:52:39 <cpressey> [====80%= ] finished my latest esolang.
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18:53:22 <Sgeo> Speccing, or implementation?
18:53:53 <cpressey> It at that "find just the right semantics to add to make it Turing-complete, without making it so powerful it's not interesting or so barely-powerful-enough that you're stuck writing tag systems in it."
18:54:12 <cpressey> Sgeo: Both. I got to a nice point in the spec, so I implemented what I had so far.
18:54:46 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_system
18:56:38 <cpressey> I've got nothing against tag systems, but... I keep thinking there's got to be something which is a more idiomatic fit with what I'm doing. Something more like simple machine language programming actually, like a 6502.
18:56:51 <cpressey> Anyway, that's what I'm up to, eso-wise.
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19:09:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, this is scaled to 30% http://omploader.org/vNGx0Mw
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19:16:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm well aware of the ghost in it.
19:16:59 <fizzie> Your HOUSE is HAUNTED, eh?
19:17:00 <fizzie> Nicey. I should probably some day try to capture the view from our balcony.
19:17:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, well there is me behind the camera being reflected in the windo
19:18:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, very fuzzy and you need to zoom to see it
19:18:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, want the full 73 MB deflate compressed tiff? 8 bits per channel
19:18:54 <AnMaster> (the window that is split across the edge that is)
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19:19:26 <fizzie> I'm not so sure I exactly need that, it's not like I'm planning to make a poster out of it or anything.
19:22:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah good, it is CC-by-nc-nd
19:23:05 <AnMaster> (contact author for other licensing options)
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19:30:38 <fizzie> Hrm. We got this gift card (the usual credit-card-sized magneto-strip card) to a consumer-electronics/domestic-appliances/etc. store when purchasing a refrigerator back in summer 2008. The card has "valid for three years" printed on it, but now when we planned to go use it, turns out the store has refocusionized their core competences, and now only sell stuff via their webshop; all their physical retail outlets have been closed.
19:31:03 <fizzie> I'm lacking suitable slots to stick the card in, and I doubt it'd work very well even if I had a stripe-reader.
19:31:09 <ais523> contact customer service and threaten to sue them; don't actually plan to make good on your threat
19:31:19 <ais523> but they'll likely give you your discount anyway just to get you to stop annoying them
19:31:57 <fizzie> I sent a reasonably friendly "how does this work?" email to customer service already; guess I can still start to be annoying if they're uncooperative.
19:33:07 <fizzie> I'm not sure how they're going to validate the amount of money the gift card has, though. Possibly they still have some sort of a database of those. I doubt they'll just believe my word.
19:33:44 <fizzie> I guess they might, though, since it's only 30 eur.
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19:38:14 <fizzie> The store's also been bought (or maybe it even originally was owned) by a Norwegian corporation (Elkjøp; itself part of a larger British corporation, DSG International plc, but that's probably not relevant any more), which also owns another Finnish consumer-electronics brand (Gigantti) that still has existing physical locations; it's borderline possible their gift card systems are compatible. (At least their webshops seem to run the
19:39:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, is "Gigantti" related to Swedish "El-giganten" in any way?
19:40:24 <fizzie> The websites look suspiciously similar, at least.
19:40:33 <fizzie> http://www.elgiganten.se/ vs. http://www.gigantti.fi/
19:40:47 <fizzie> Both seem to be part of Elkjøp.
19:41:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't the Finnish one have any Swedish part?
19:41:47 <AnMaster> I thought most stuff was dual-language in Finland?
19:42:01 <fizzie> Everything official is.
19:42:25 <fizzie> Not very many corporations (at least those with complicated websites) bother with a whole Swedish localization.
19:43:22 <AnMaster> what stops fake sites from displaying those "verified by VISA" images?
19:44:33 <fizzie> You probably notice it when they start asking for credit card number instead of redirecting to the verified-by-VISA systemagics, though.
19:45:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, would your average windows user notice though?
19:45:38 <fizzie> Well, if the card is set to verified-by-VISA-only, they also can't charge the card without going through it.
19:45:58 <AnMaster> hm, well sure, but that is charging
19:46:01 <fizzie> I don't quite recall the specifics, but I think the point there is that it redirects at one point to the issuing bank's own web-store, which will then ask for the usual online-banking credentials before authorizing the payment.
19:47:26 <fizzie> I would assume most VISA cards are set to "allow generic online shopping too", though, in which case I guess it is pretty pointless.
19:48:10 <fizzie> The (now discontinued) "VISA Electron" cards given out by several Finnish banks were set to "only work online for shops that do Verified-by-VISA".
19:48:36 <fizzie> Which is a bit annoying, since at least amazon.com/de/co.uk/whatever didn't do verified-by-VISA.
19:49:01 <fizzie> In any case, there's more than just a random bitmap.
19:49:24 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/cpressey/louie.html#Goldbach
19:49:33 <fizzie> I think MasterCard has an identical thing, too... SecureCode or somesuch.
19:49:52 <fizzie> Right, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-D_Secure
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19:52:37 <fizzie> (What a pretentious name.)
20:00:16 <leBMD> Did I ever tell you about that time with that one girl and the glow-in-the dark paint?
20:02:16 <fizzie> Three domains, not three dimensions.
20:12:56 <ais523> after getting my site working in IE6, I'm trying various other browsers
20:13:30 <ais523> didn't manage to get IE7 working, so I had to test in IE6
20:13:40 <ais523> not that much needed changing, actually
20:13:50 <ais523> it was mostly an insane workaround for some insane bugs I needed
20:14:08 <cpressey> Microsoft is trying hard to kill it
20:14:33 <cpressey> Since most web development just ignores it at this point anyway
20:14:34 <ais523> here, say e is a <select> element: e.innerHTML = '<option value="x">y</option>' will set its innerHTML to... 'y</option>'
20:14:41 <ais523> I don't have any idea how you can manage that
20:15:30 <ais523> what's confusing me now is whether IE7 has the same problem
20:15:49 <ais523> as the only fix I could find for that bug was to condition it on the useragent string
20:16:00 <ais523> and to replace the HTML of the parent element instead of the select element itself
20:16:17 <ais523> I know the bug with replacing the HTML of a <tbody> element in IE6 exists in IE7 and IE8 as well
20:16:22 <ais523> but I'm not sure about that one
20:17:54 <ais523> hmm, this seems to work in Chromium but not Epiphany, I must have hit a bug in Epiphany
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20:19:29 <ais523> ooh, 'tis a known bug in IE6: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/276228
20:19:47 <ais523> it's a known bug in IE5
20:22:29 <ais523> websearch implies it's in IE6 and IE7 as well, I've verified IE6 by hand
20:22:43 <ais523> next question: does it also happen in IE8?
20:24:15 <ais523> http://alexle.net/archives/150
20:24:41 <Sgeo> As in, to a page that lets me test if IE8's buggy. I have IE8 on here
20:24:50 <ais523> ah, let me quickly write one
20:25:47 * Sgeo waits for IE to start
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20:32:32 <Deewiant> They put "width: 1px" on the <pre> in their code listings
20:32:57 <Deewiant> Which handily breaks my global setting of "white-space: pre-wrap"
20:33:51 <fizzie> They want to save on bandWIDTH costs, ehe-eeh-he-eh-hee.
20:35:35 <ais523> Sgeo: "data:text/html,%3Chead%3E%3Cscript%3Efunction%20q()%7Bdocument.a.b.innerHTML='%3Coption%20value=%22y%22%3Ex%3C/option%3E';%7D%3C/script%3E%3C/head%3E%3Cbody%3E%3Cform%20name=%22a%22%3E%3Cselect%20name=%22b%22%3E%3Coption%20value=%22x%22%3Ey%3C/option%3E%3C/select%3E%3C/form%3E%3Ca%20href=%22javascript:q();void(0)%22%3Etest%3C/a%3E%3C/body%3E"
20:35:37 <Deewiant> So now I have an exception for support.microsoft.com pre.code as well as developer.apple.com pre.manpages
20:35:43 <ais523> the bit betwen the quotes is the URI
20:35:49 <ais523> (IE8 accepts data: URLs, doesn't it?)
20:36:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: Have some funny-looking sunlight: http://zem.fi/~fis/kazoom.jpg
20:36:16 <Sgeo> But XChat doesn't like copy/paste
20:36:30 <ais523> and yet doesn't autolink data: URIs?
20:36:36 <ais523> http://data:text/html,%3Chead%3E%3Cscript%3Efunction%20q()%7Bdocument.a.b.innerHTML='%3Coption%20value=%22y%22%3Ex%3C/option%3E';%7D%3C/script%3E%3C/head%3E%3Cbody%3E%3Cform%20name=%22a%22%3E%3Cselect%20name=%22b%22%3E%3Coption%20value=%22x%22%3Ey%3C/option%3E%3C/select%3E%3C/form%3E%3Ca%20href=%22javascript:q();void(0)%22%3Etest%3C/a%3E%3C/body%3E
20:36:41 <ais523> delete the http:// once it's in your browser
20:36:57 <Sgeo> I copy/pasted from logs
20:37:03 <Sgeo> "The webpage cannot be displayed"
20:37:17 <ais523> seems it doesn't like data: URIs after all, maybe that's IE9
20:37:18 <fizzie> According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_URI_scheme there are some restrictions in IE8's support for them.
20:37:37 <ais523> I'll pastebin the HTML, so you can save it locally and run from there
20:38:27 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1883125
20:39:49 <Sgeo> "To help protect your security, Internet Explorer has restricted ..."
20:40:16 <Sgeo> I unblocked it
20:40:17 <ais523> IE considers scripts on your own computer untrustworthy by defaults
20:40:22 <Sgeo> What's supposed to happen?
20:40:24 <ais523> but scripts elsewhere on the internet trustworthy
20:40:32 <ais523> when you click the link, the dropdown's meant to change from y to x
20:40:52 <ais523> ok, that's the symptom of the same bug
20:41:08 <ais523> looks like I should condition the fix on being any version of IE, then
20:41:35 <ais523> Deewiant: the bug's persisted since IE5
20:41:41 <ais523> should I assume by default that it'll be fixed come IE9?
20:41:59 <ais523> or is it wiser to assume that IE9 will also screw this up?
20:42:51 <ais523> the alternative would be testing somewhere in a display:none area of the page
20:43:00 <Sgeo> Remind me to never become a web developer doing frontend stuff
20:43:08 <Deewiant> I'd say it's wiser to assume a bounded number of releases fail
20:43:20 <Deewiant> The question just becomes what bound you guess ;-)
20:43:22 <fizzie> Maybe they could call the tenth one IE-X?
20:43:50 <Deewiant> fizzie: They have to, because 1 < 9 and IE10 would break a lot of stuff
20:44:01 <Deewiant> Unless they just want to lie in their user-agent like Opera
20:44:19 <ais523> Windows 3.95? Windows 6.1?
20:45:06 <ais523> and windows 3.95 = windows 95
20:45:38 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT_4.0
20:46:08 <ais523> Microsoft chooses version numbers for Windows that minimise the number of badly-written applications that crash on the version number
20:46:20 <Deewiant> Which may or may not be different
20:46:29 <fizzie> It will be somewhat interesting to see what Windows 8 will be "in reality".
20:46:49 <Sgeo> Why not call Windows 7 Windows 6?
20:47:01 <Sgeo> Or why use 6.1 for 7's version number?
20:47:09 <ais523> they picked 7 just to have a nice-sounding name, IIRC
20:47:18 <fizzie> Vista was 6.0 already, so it can't be "Windows 6".
20:47:29 <fizzie> There was that "Why 7" article.
20:47:32 <Sgeo> Why not 7.0 for the version number
20:47:42 <Deewiant> Because it's not different enough to Vista
20:47:48 <fizzie> http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/archive/b/windowsvista/archive/2008/10/14/why-7.aspx
20:47:52 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Version_Number
20:47:53 <ais523> Sgeo: because of the number of applications written for Vista that refuse to run on anything but "windows 6"
20:48:09 <Deewiant> Are there still apps like that?
20:48:15 <ais523> the mistake happens year after year
20:48:19 <ais523> and Microsoft keep pandering to it
20:48:19 <Deewiant> I'd think that these days, apps have cleverer detection
20:48:53 <Sgeo> The API shouldn't allow detection of the version of Windows, maybe
20:49:01 <Deewiant> Have to: backwards compatibility
20:49:15 <ais523> maybe apps just shouldn't try to detect
20:49:24 <Deewiant> Because 15-year old apps do it, you have to allow it
20:49:27 <ais523> no app I know of, other than some drivers, tries to detect a Linux version
20:49:39 <Deewiant> But they do, so you're screwed
20:50:03 <Deewiant> Exploits usually check uname first, I think
20:50:08 <Sgeo> Windows 3.1 == Windows NT?
20:50:19 <ais523> two entirely different codebases
20:50:24 <ais523> neither is derived from the othe
20:50:27 <Deewiant> There was a Windows NT 3.1, though
20:50:36 <ais523> also, Windows NT is a kernel, compared to Windows 3.1 which is a full OS
20:51:13 <Deewiant> Windows NT is also a (family of) full OS(s)
20:51:57 <ais523> isn't Windows Server the OS?
20:52:13 <Deewiant> Windows Server is a number of OSs
20:52:36 <Deewiant> But, for example, Windows NT 3.1 was an OS.
20:52:43 <Deewiant> I think it was just called "Windows NT" back then.
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20:56:10 <fizzie> There's a fair bit of arbitraryness between marketing names and numbers there. The non-server side went Vista -> Windows 7 and code-versions 6.0 -> 6.1, while the 6.0 server was "Windows Server 2008" and the 6.1 is "Windows Server 2008 R2".
20:57:44 <fizzie> Let's see if Windows 8's server counterpart (released in 2012 or so, most likely) will be "Super Windows Server 2008 R2 Turbo".
20:58:52 <ais523> why the hell does Opera install a system tray icon?
20:59:12 <Deewiant> So that you know when it's running
20:59:13 <ais523> only while running, though
20:59:26 <ais523> in Windows, I wouldn't notice, but in Linux, that's crazily out of place
21:02:06 <fizzie> That one Gnome music thing.
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21:02:46 <fizzie> (It makes some bits of sense since it's somewhat useful for controlling the player without bothering to look at it. And it's optional.)
21:03:28 <ais523> yep, Konversation does it optional as a visible highlight, that's what I use it for
21:03:50 <ais523> and for Rhythmbox it makes sense because it's the sort of program that you probably want to minimize to the system tray
21:04:09 <fizzie> Bittorrent clients have a habit like that too.
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21:09:48 <ais523> hmm, I wonder why Ubuntu Software Centre can't uninstall software installed directly from the .deb?
21:09:56 <ais523> I used dpkg to uninstall it, in the end
21:10:28 <fizzie> Possibly they want to discourage you from bypassing the Software Centre.
21:10:43 <fizzie> Do they already put commercial apps in the Centre?
21:10:47 <ais523> well, Opera isn't in the Software Centre (non-free, after all)
21:10:51 <ais523> and they don't yet, they're planning to though
21:11:05 <ais523> there are a few non-free apps there, like the Flash installer
21:11:05 <fizzie> I remember it was supposed to become an App Store-ish thing.
21:11:18 <ais523> I'm not sure what criteria they use to decide whether to put something there
21:11:37 <ais523> anyway, the webapp worked straight off in Opera (I'd already checked Firefox, IE6, and Chromium)
21:11:47 <ais523> and then I uninstalled Opera because it was too annoying
21:11:56 <ais523> never known a browser to get on my nerves in less than a minute, even IE doesn't do that
21:12:37 <ais523> AnMaster: the interface is a lot nicer than synaptic, and the featureset is catching up
21:13:22 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if he is going to bother storming out in indignation if they make the Software Centre into an app store.
21:13:24 <AnMaster> ais523, so you can search for packages like libmudflap0-4.3-dev?
21:13:38 <AnMaster> or is it like the old gnome thingy that it just show "end user" apps?
21:13:44 <AnMaster> ais523, in the latter case it is worthless
21:13:44 <fizzie> I installed chromium (for some reason I don't quite recall), and suddenly my "sensible-browser" became it. Apparently it's because both "firefox" and "chromium-browser" are alternatives to gnome-www-browser, with the same priority (40).
21:13:57 <AnMaster> ais523 also I find synaptic very lacking. doesn't even allow regex search
21:14:01 <ais523> typed in "libmudflap" and got a menu full of mudflap libraries
21:14:14 <AnMaster> ais523, -dev and -dbg packages too?
21:14:14 <ais523> including the one you mentioned
21:14:24 <AnMaster> ais523, also I'm not sure of the exact spelling
21:14:41 <ais523> you remembered right, as it happens
21:15:13 <AnMaster> ais523, so does it allow you to mark a package installed as a dep as manually installed?
21:15:23 <AnMaster> since synaptic doesn't seem to do it
21:15:46 <ais523> to mark as manually installed, you just install the package
21:15:52 <ais523> despite it already being installed
21:15:59 <ais523> but that was with aptitude
21:16:03 <AnMaster> ais523, that iirc forces a reinstall
21:16:43 <AnMaster> but aptitude is annoying, it wants to automatically remove "unneeded deps" right away
21:17:03 <AnMaster> I prefer for that to be a manual action, especially during post-upgrade cleanup
21:17:29 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I managed to get rid of all the annoying stuff with the new gdm
21:17:49 <ais523> hmm, your approach to managing a computer seems so much different from mine
21:18:04 <AnMaster> long live: DISPLAY=:0.0 sudo -u gdm gconf-editor
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21:18:21 <AnMaster> (from a vt, logged in as root)
21:18:54 <AnMaster> ais523, the next step is to replace the ubuntu icon with the gnome icon for the main menu
21:19:00 <ais523> I very rarely spend time tweaking to that level
21:19:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't want the "user browser" of the new gdm. I just want username/password fields
21:19:33 <ais523> only real tweak I've done here is modifying the 'registry' to give me the window menu back and put the window close button in the correct corner
21:19:48 <AnMaster> well, I done that too of course
21:20:03 <AnMaster> ais523, also I changed login screen to clearlooks
21:20:19 <AnMaster> ais523, and there is no splash at all
21:20:29 <AnMaster> none of the new pink/lilac stuff
21:24:26 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.4845 \ wunderbar_emporium
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21:27:01 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:27:32 <HackEgo> cube2.jpg: JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
21:27:58 <fizzie> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/cd0481bbc230/cube2.jpg if you want to see it.
21:28:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, couldn't figure out how to get the raw thing
21:28:33 <fizzie> It's the "raw" link, bottom-most in the left side when viewing the file entry.
21:28:45 <coppro> http://wilwheaton.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c59aa53ef013484143d63970c-800wi
21:28:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, photoshopped I presume?
21:29:13 <fizzie> The help.txt is not very helpful. :/
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22:26:31 <Phantom_Hoover> There must be something somewhere where you can input a C file online, then it will be compiled and you ca download it,
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22:33:45 <Gregor-P> pikhq: Blar why aren't you in #plof
22:39:22 <ais523> hmm, it seems the Twitter Fail Whale has a smaller filesize in gzipped CSS than it does as a .PNG
22:39:38 <ais523> http://www.subcide.com/experiments/fail-whale/
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22:53:42 <cpressey> You know, those perfectly normal paranormal events.
22:54:31 <Gregor-P> I considered using that exact phrase, then decided it was too stupid :P
23:02:09 * Sgeo wants to see a language that looks like a normal programming language but isn't TC
23:02:23 <Sgeo> [C doesn't count, but I don't know how to properly express that]
23:03:19 <Sgeo> It should be fundamentally be unable to interpret BF
23:04:32 <cpressey> You could define a language with the exact syntax of, say, Pascal, but with no semantics.
23:05:10 <cpressey> Where, like, BEGIN Var := 5; END; is a perfectly valid fragment of code, it just doesn't mean anything.
23:05:12 <Sgeo> That's not what I'm going for either, really :/
23:05:32 <Sgeo> More in a style of subtle limitations, say, in how loops wormk
23:06:15 <pikhq> So... Total functional programming?
23:06:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null).
23:06:32 <pikhq> (like normal functional programming, except "bottom" does not exist.)
23:08:00 <Sgeo> I think that's more subtle than my idea of imperitive, with no while and a limited for
23:08:37 <pikhq> It can only compute terminating functions.
23:09:00 <cpressey> The imperative equivalent would be, only FOR loops, no WHILE.
23:09:04 <Sgeo> So, how does one mkae a total functional language?
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23:09:16 <pikhq> cpressey: Except that a for loop can do while.
23:09:30 <pikhq> for(; x;) is the same as while(x)
23:09:30 <cpressey> pikhq: ... you know what I mean. I hope.
23:09:39 <cpressey> Not C's FOR. That's not a FOR loop.
23:10:09 * ais523 just typoed "instruction" as "extrunction"
23:10:36 <ais523> Sgeo: have you seen Idealized Concurrent Algol?
23:10:46 <Sgeo> Never heard of it
23:10:48 <ais523> it's what I work with at Work, and sub-TC
23:11:04 <ais523> mostly because it has no way to allocate infinite memory
23:11:13 <fizzie> Wasn't at least one of Hofstadter's Bloop/Floop/Gloop triplet sub-TC, exactly with the "imperative but bounded loops only" thing.
23:11:15 <ais523> nor any way to do recursion (other than while loops, which are technically recursion)
23:11:22 <ais523> fizzie: yep, BLooP was
23:11:28 <ais523> FLooP was TC, GLooP didn't exist
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23:12:48 <cpressey> "while loops, which are technically recursion"
23:13:15 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlooP_and_FlooP has some examples.
23:13:18 <ais523> cpressey: computer scientists have a lambda-calculus-centred mind
23:13:31 <ais523> and thus consider any form of looping to be recursion
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23:18:09 <cpressey> btw, in case I didn't make it obvious previously, and I don't think I did, I added several languages-that-weren't to LoUIE: http://catseye.tc/cpressey/louie.html
23:18:52 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/cpressey/louie.html#Goldbach doesn't quite qualify for what Sgeo is looking for, but is in the same spirit, maybe.
23:19:19 <cpressey> Obviously, or it wouldn't be on this list :/
23:21:09 <coppro> cpressey: Idea for the second one in the list: Instructions implicitly have N in an operand, where each instruction is the Nth character on a line
23:22:08 <cpressey> coppro: sorry, which one do you mean by the second one?
23:22:24 <coppro> err, wait, that's not the second
23:22:33 <coppro> uh, Seltzer Spigot, apparently
23:23:39 <cpressey> coppro: That would fit, I suppose. I honesly have no ideas for that one, except that it should look like that :)
23:24:20 <cpressey> I suppose colon would be a significant instruction of some sort
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23:26:07 <coppro> Do you require that the snippet there be an actual valid program, or merely inspiration?
23:26:46 <cpressey> Well it would be *nice* if were an actual program, but no, I'd be quite happy if programs simply looked a lot like that, in general.
23:28:07 <cpressey> Bonus points if it's a valid program, super bonus points if running it does something meaningful, too.
23:28:49 <coppro> we could make an HQ9+ variant :P
23:29:39 <cpressey> Points off for non-compositional semantics :|
23:36:22 <cpressey> So I figure I'm under some obligation to write a Thue interpreter
23:36:35 <cpressey> And I'm wondering what language to write it in
23:36:55 <cpressey> Since C, Python, Java, and Javascript have been done
23:36:59 <Mathnerd314> cpressey: could : be an end-of-line delimiter (like ; in c-like stuff)
23:37:10 <coppro> Mathnerd314: it could, but that's boring
23:38:47 <cpressey> Mathnerd314: Well, the first three lines are just ":" in different columns
23:39:03 <Gregor-P> Write it in the lambda calculus.
23:40:34 <cpressey> Anyway, I need to be off. Later, folks.
23:40:43 <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough
23:40:51 <coppro> Mathnerd314: why would it require colon if whitespace is significant? Surely the newline is enough?
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23:41:55 <coppro> `addquote <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough
23:41:58 <HackEgo> 181|<Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough
23:42:02 <coppro> Mathnerd314: hrm, that's possibly a valid reason
23:44:08 <HackEgo> 118|<apollo> Actually, he still looks like he'd rather eat her than have sex with her.
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23:44:54 <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: you can't do IO with just lambdas
23:45:24 <coppro> sure you can, you just tack it on to a function as a side effect
23:45:28 <coppro> IO is always a side effect
23:45:29 <Gregor-P> Fine, so we need the calculus of lambdas and monads.
23:45:33 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: have you looked at lazy-k?
23:46:15 <oerjan> you can encode a monad as lambdas too, if you want more than that
23:47:30 <oerjan> <AnMaster> and he is in my timezone... <-- *cackles evilly*
23:47:36 <Sgeo> Brainfuck without PSOX isn't powerful enough to be a web browser
23:47:52 <Sgeo> That's part of the reason I made PSOX >.>
23:51:43 <oerjan> <AnMaster> fizzie, well there is me behind the camera being reflected in the windo
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23:52:27 <oerjan> it's ok, we don't really mind if you're a ghost, we're all open-minded people here, except alise and he already hates you :D
23:56:56 <Sgeo> Did AnMaster die in a helicopter crash after being involved with the mayor?
23:57:15 * oerjan doesn't get the reference
23:58:20 <Sgeo> http://superosity.keenspot.com/w/20050502.html
23:58:24 <Sgeo> Read this story arc