00:05:50 Sgeo: does it have an end? 00:06:01 The arc? Yes 00:07:08 The last Sunday strip in the arc has Jon Heder playing someone 00:07:29 I _think_ there are 4 weeks in the arc 00:09:47 -!- aschueler has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:10:16 ah. 00:10:17 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:18:09 -!- relet has joined. 00:20:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:20:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:24:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:28:54 -!- augur has joined. 00:32:37 -!- cheater99 has joined. 00:33:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:37:18 I think that's more subtle than my idea of imperitive, with no while and a limited for 00:37:53 that's known to be the way to get only the primitive recursive functions 00:38:41 (like, no ackermann function, as well as everything terminating) 00:40:50 What other interesting sub-TC possibilities are there? 00:41:46 that's BlooP from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlooP_and_FlooP 00:41:51 (i think) 00:42:09 oerjan, did you read the comic arc I linked? 00:42:50 yes. although i find that comic boring for the most part. 00:42:58 :( 00:43:47 (wait, don't tell me you're the author) 00:43:54 I'm not. 00:44:10 could have been embarassing 00:45:03 Sgeo: i've also seen some ideas on restricting recursion to achieve things like only primite recursive, only polynomial time or only logarithmic space 00:45:27 * Sgeo is an admin for Wikisuperosity 00:45:32 by dividing parameters into classes where you can only recurse in certain combinations 00:45:35 oh 00:45:49 I thought "for, no while" was already primitive recusive only? 00:45:59 also i guess time and space classes in general are examples of interesting sub-TC possibilities 00:46:10 What are these ideas? 00:46:30 And would "only recursive non-primitive-recusive" be possible/ 00:46:35 Sgeo: yes, this was a different way of achieving the same thing functionally rather than imperatively. or so i think, the case i actually read was the polynomial time one 00:47:55 Sgeo: almost certainly not possible, you'll always top out somewhere _below_ all recursive, or escape to full TC. in fact i think the "usual diagonalization techniques" work for showing that 00:48:59 um or wait what do you mean, primitive recursive is a _subset_ of recursive 00:49:25 I meant, being able to do anything except the things within the subset 00:49:32 Or, well, not anything 00:49:36 and if you had only non-primitive recursive it would mean you _couldn't_ do absolutely trivial things, because those are subsets of primitive recursive 00:50:02 Being unable to do trivial things, but being able to do .. more complex things, sounds fun 00:50:10 maybe there's a way, but it seems unintuitive 00:50:36 because you can usually reduce easier problems to harder ones 00:51:00 Well, if "everything not primitive-recursive" isn't doable, then try for a finite set not in primitive-recursive, maybe 00:51:01 and hardness is usually measured with something like reduction 00:52:10 Sgeo: the thing i see is if you had any kind of composability you would be likely to be able to construct simpler things 00:52:55 and if you don't have composability then you might just have a finite set of not really very related algorithms 00:52:57 "Do not use as a pillow, toy, or floatation device" 00:52:58 Too late 00:53:15 what did you do now? :D 00:53:28 Used some packing material as a toy 00:53:42 And kind of like a pillow 00:53:47 bubble wrap? 00:54:10 airpouch.com 00:54:15 everyone knows it's humanly impossible _not_ to use that as a toy 00:54:59 oh huge bubbles 00:56:10 IF YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO USE IT AS A PILLOW YOU SHOULDN'T CALL IT "AIR PILLOWS" STUPID 00:57:35 * Sgeo wonders if anyone has ever used these as a floatation device.. 00:58:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:58:47 Sgeo: after they made the warning, probably ;D 00:58:48 * Sgeo wonders if it's possible for a gas to not be buoyant in liquid 01:00:19 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ABEANS) 01:01:21 Do not stop chainsaw with hands or genitals 01:02:00 hm well if the gas is heavier than the liquid - in fact isn't there this lake in africa that has huge amounts of gas stored in it 01:02:21 (occasionally getting out and poisoning/suffocating people) 01:03:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos 01:03:32 i guess it doesn't count, seems like the CO2 is dissolved until it escapes 01:04:33 hi 01:04:39 ho 01:06:17 seems like it is kept in the lower water layers by temperature difference and lack of mixing 01:08:22 http://scitoys.com/board/messages/108/1447.html 01:09:24 if the second message is anything to go by, then even the heaviest gas (radon) is lighter than the lightest liquid (hydrogen). assuming those actually _are_ heaviest and lightest 01:11:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_stocks 01:13:26 that jimbo guy probably had it coming, anyhow 01:14:08 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:16:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:18:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 01:21:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:46:59 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 01:48:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:52:51 I/O! I/O! 'Tween code and world we go! 01:58:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 02:19:25 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:34:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:35:47 pikhq: Have you played Diplomacy? 02:36:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:36:35 (or anyone else) 02:37:28 I've read about it 02:37:55 You should play online, but aside from that, I'd like to discuss with someone with experience 03:10:15 * Sgeo_ wonders if it would make sense to write an MMO in Erlang 03:13:40 it would 03:26:09 -!- augur has joined. 03:26:15 Hm, a more OO language would make more sense though? 03:26:57 coppro: Nay, I have not 03:27:19 Sgeo_: why? 03:27:35 To represent various entities within the world 03:35:54 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:43:08 i'm not familiar with Erlang, sorry :/ 03:43:24 the name crops up but still 03:44:13 oh yay, functional programming. 03:47:00 Sgeo_: if you're going to avoid functional programming because it apparently can't represent objects, try Reia 03:47:27 But I want Erlang for the hot-patching 03:47:32 And concurrency 03:47:40 Oh 03:47:41 hot-patching? 03:47:47 Erm, hot-swapping? 03:47:51 hot-something 03:48:30 Sgeo_: Reia is built on the Erlang VM 03:48:32 so you can patch it on the fly? 03:48:47 coppro, yeah I see, I just wikied 03:48:51 of course, there's also robozzle 03:49:12 which is quite extreme with its minimal storage capability 03:51:29 http://wiki.reia-lang.org/wiki/Reia_Programming_Language o.O Reia looks A LOT like Ruby 03:51:41 yes. 03:51:41 Actually, I think that might be valid Ruby code 03:52:13 print is a private method in the string object, though :/ 03:53:31 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:53:42 and it seems to just return nil 03:54:22 oh wait 03:54:29 you actually need to put stuff in the brackets 03:55:45 it directly links to Kernel#print 03:56:00 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 03:56:23 also a fun way to crash irb (interactive ruby interpreter) 03:56:25 Object.send :private, :nil? 03:56:30 and then try typing something 04:00:01 irb(main):010:0> String.ancestors 04:00:01 => [String, Enumerable, Comparable, Object, Kernel] 04:12:20 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 04:25:01 -!- coppro has joined. 05:02:57 -!- sshc_ has joined. 05:06:24 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:09:52 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 05:35:54 -!- MizardX has joined. 06:16:18 Pidgin no longer supports Win 9x 06:16:33 good riddance 06:19:44 I just realized something. 06:20:06 I could claim that alise is as obsessed with old versions of Windows as I am with old virtual worlds 06:20:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:20:48 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:25:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:28:17 -!- jabb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:28:47 -!- jabb has joined. 06:31:10 * Sgeo_ double-checks that the lights are on 06:37:34 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 06:40:21 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:46:56 -!- augur has joined. 07:07:02 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:16:27 -!- tombom has joined. 07:26:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:26:14 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:29:41 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 07:34:48 -!- uorygl has joined. 07:35:09 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:39:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:39:49 -!- augur has joined. 07:40:28 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 07:42:49 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:50:58 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:27:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 08:31:29 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:34:43 Man. Japanese Internet memes are freaking amazing. 08:37:50 -!- slsimic has joined. 08:41:12 -!- slsimic has left (?). 08:55:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:14:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:26:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:52:31 Did AnMaster die in a helicopter crash after being involved with the mayor? <-- ??? is this non-sequitur? 11:15:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:43:24 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:52:28 -!- kar8nga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:18:13 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:38:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:43:36 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:06:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:37:42 -!- cheater99 has joined. 13:39:45 -!- alex2012 has joined. 13:41:32 -!- alex2012 has quit (Client Quit). 13:41:40 -!- alex2012 has joined. 13:41:54 hello fellow humans 13:42:13 hows mood? 13:43:05 :D 13:43:15 so busy here 13:43:15 haha 13:55:28 -!- alex2012 has left (?). 14:06:14 try turning up when I'm not at a seminar next time 14:30:28 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 14:35:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:36:14 Did AnMaster die in a helicopter crash after being involved with the mayor? <-- ??? is this non-sequitur? 14:36:37 strangely enough, not entirely. see the later superosity link. 14:36:54 almost, but not entirely, i guess. 14:49:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:28:55 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:30:39 cpressey: i agree that your goldbach language needs work - for one thing it's not hard to find arbitrary large even numbers that are sums of two odd primes 15:31:13 oerjan: Yeah, and there's really no advantage to them being even 15:31:29 i think, they just need to get larger and larger and execution progresses 15:32:14 -!- relet has joined. 15:33:31 Didn't someone here say they implemented Thue in Haskell? 15:33:48 hm maybe 15:34:16 shouldn't be too hard, anyway 15:35:56 No, not at all. 15:36:12 Well, except for the confusing things in the spec about how I/O symbols can be overridden 15:36:44 I don't understand, does that mean, if there is a ~~~ in the initial data, then I should *not* treat that as meaning "input" when it appears on a RHS? 15:36:45 um is there something more than the esowiki says? 15:37:03 How else do I "override" ~~~ ? 15:37:17 Sorry, I mean ::: 15:37:50 But the same applies to ~foo I believe. 15:38:00 the wiki article contains no instance of the word "override" 15:38:15 John's doc does, though. 15:38:21 And that would be definitive 15:38:25 such as it is 15:38:28 where's that? 15:38:49 http://catseye.tc/projects/thue/doc/thue.txt 15:38:54 also on salafra's site i believe 15:39:09 "Note that either (or both) of these implicit rules may be overridden by providing explicit rules that perform some other task." 15:39:13 OK, then 15:39:23 I guess that means if you say ::::=foo you override input. 15:39:30 ah 15:40:23 I wonder how many implementations correctly do that, esp for output, where I gather ~foo::=bar only overrides outputting foo 15:43:09 well if they start implementing from the wiki text, obviously they won't... 15:45:00 hm this also means that ::: and ~output should be triggered even if they are _not_ the entire right hand side of a rule, not? 15:45:23 hm wait for ~output that makes no sense 15:46:05 I always though I/O in Thue smelled kind of funny. 15:46:12 *thought* 15:46:27 because if you apply something::=~output to somethingwhoops you would then print outputwhoops rather than output, or perhaps a nondeterministic initial string :D 15:46:46 well i already pointed out on the wiki that there is no way to avoid code injection with input 15:47:38 and that was from my simplified understanding, if ::: and ~output are really implicit rules that _don't_ need to apply to a whole rhs then stuff gets utterly insane 15:47:57 I don't know if I want to treat thue.c as a reference implementation, but there might be no other way to ENSURE TOTAL COMPLIANCE 15:48:05 well i guess ::: doesn't matter that much 15:48:39 "The specific effect is that all 15:48:39 text to the right of the output symbol in the rhs of a production is sent 15:48:39 to the output stream. 15:48:41 " 15:49:06 i guess it needs to be in an rhs then, although it's unclear whether the ~ must be at the start 15:49:43 /ab 15:49:44 err 15:49:45 fail 15:49:47 Hm, in FvdP's implementation, the ::: can appear as initial data 15:49:57 at least, it suggests 15:50:06 and it triggers input 15:50:56 does anyone know anything about water based computers? As a thought experiment I invented a simple (bidirectional) water transistor 15:51:16 seems quite easy to do both "nMOS-style" and "pMOS-style" btw 15:52:21 i vaguely recall you can do computation with hydraulics 15:52:21 I don't know how to do a water diode, but iirc there are already some sorts of one-way water valves? Not sure how they work but they should be suitable 15:52:43 oerjan, hm, doesn't that imply oil? 15:52:57 hydr- is greek for water 15:53:26 ah so why is it that hydraulics commonly use oil? 15:54:02 it can use any liquid, presumably 15:54:17 "Hydraulics is a topic in applied science and engineering dealing with the mechanical properties of liquids." 15:54:35 "The word "hydraulics" originates from the Greek word .......... (hydraulikos) which in turn originates from ........ (hydraulos) meaning water organ which in turn comes from .... (hydor, Greek for water) and ..... (aulos, meaning pipe)." 15:55:04 ah 15:55:48 hm, I think my transistor will even model the leak current of electrical transistors quite well 15:56:34 There's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics -- I remember reading that page once. 15:56:45 It's linked from the sadly short "unconventional computing" article. 15:59:20 ah that is quite interesting 15:59:55 also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatics#Pneumatic_logic 16:00:30 I wonder how reliable that amplifier is 16:00:31 -!- hiato has joined. 16:01:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorteberg_relay 16:01:45 oerjan, I meant the fluid one 16:01:48 not the pneumatic one 16:02:00 they're sort of related 16:02:03 "The word "hydraulics" originates from the Greek word .......... (hydraulikos) which in turn originates from ........ (hydraulos) meaning water organ which in turn comes from .... (hydor, Greek for water) and ..... (aulos, meaning pipe)." 16:02:05 Daaaamn 16:02:07 This is way too relevant 16:02:36 AnMaster: in fact the section before the pneumatic logic one contains a comparison of hydraulics and pneumatics 16:02:37 oerjan, a disadvantage of using air as the computing medium would be that it is quite compressible (unlike a fluid). 16:03:05 which means the calculation probably will be slower since zero friction would be very impractical 16:03:29 oh that is mentioned in that section too 16:04:01 Gregor: too what? (also *mwahahaha synchronicity*) 16:04:05 *to 16:04:19 Hydraulics :P 16:04:38 I was expecting it to be some ridiculous thing. I mean obviously hydro is water, but it could have been like "water serpent" 16:05:28 no, that's hydra 16:05:48 (of course you knew that) 16:05:54 Oh pff 16:05:56 You're unhelpful. 16:05:59 Hydraulics -- powered by hydras with ulcers. 16:06:19 oerjan, anyway, I suggest using water logic (5 cm scale to begin with, in some years I suspect it might be feasible to reach the 5 mm scale!) 16:06:22 Hydra-ulics 16:07:12 what would a water resistor look like? 16:07:14 AnMaster: they _did_ mention nanotechnology 16:07:25 AnMaster: A valve. 16:07:33 oerjan, hm :/ 16:07:43 Gregor, wouldn't that be what a diod was? 16:07:44 For the small scale wetness (though not very logic-related), there's another Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfluidics 16:07:54 Gregor, or possibly a zenner diode (spelling?) 16:08:15 You can stuff water backwards through a valve, it's only pressure that forces it to go whichever way it goes. 16:08:35 Gregor, can't you have one-way valves? 16:08:42 Gregor, otherwise, how the heck do pumps work? 16:08:59 You can have one-way valves. They're called "one-way valves" 16:09:09 Gregor, yep, diodes 16:09:16 I wasn't referring to one-way valves. 16:09:20 I was referring to valves. 16:09:20 Gregor, ah 16:09:52 hm 16:10:45 Nowait, my valve system isn't a resistor at all, it just trades "voltage" for current or vice-versa. A resistor is just a leaky bit of pipe. 16:11:51 anyway, for digital logic, one disadvantage of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fluidicamplifier.gif is that it would most probably have a rather high leakage flow on the "gate" (or what would be "gate" in MOSFET) 16:12:59 I think that using a movable plug controlled by a small gate fluid might work better. That way the leakage would be very low. Either have complementary fluids to move it back, or a spring in the opposite end 16:14:23 Gregor, so your valve is more like a transformer then? 16:14:55 except it doesn't provide the isolation that a "normal" transformer does 16:15:35 so I guess it is more like an autotransformer 16:15:42 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotransformer) 16:26:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:30:10 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:30:51 -!- hiato has joined. 16:32:14 ais523: you know it's sort of hard not involving you in the recent Talk:Tubes discussion :D 16:32:20 heh 16:32:23 you're right, anyway 16:32:31 wiki admins see all that goes on... 16:33:11 do you know if the earlier 2,5 machine that's also sometimes mentioned has the same infinity issues? 16:34:06 i noted the mathworld page linked to is inconsistent - it starts with saying tape should be finite and ends with your result 16:34:38 oerjan: the known proof for the 2,5 machine needs an repeating tape 16:34:39 and i'm not sure where the 2,5 in the middle fits 16:34:46 ok 16:34:46 that repeats one pattern infinitely to the left, and a different pattern infinitely to the right 16:34:58 so similar to rule 110 16:34:58 you can easily make it work on a blank tape by adding a few million new states and an extra colour 16:35:04 to do the repeating in the turing machine itself 16:35:17 yep, it's identical to R110 in that respect, which it emulates 16:35:28 but the repeating pattern is more complex as you have to allow for the turing machine to change direction 16:35:42 um it _does_ emulate rule 110? 16:35:47 (this is actually a mistake in Wolfram's published proof of the 2,5 machine's completeness) 16:35:59 oerjan: yes, although the published proof in ANKOS is wrong 16:36:05 oh. 16:36:16 I actually pointed this out to Wolfram himself over the phone; he said does it work anyway and I said yes, so he said he wasn't bothered 16:36:42 um, excuse me i'll have to go revert a certain edit i recently did to wikipedia's UTM article *blush* 16:38:30 basically, if, say, the repeating pattern is 100 cells long, you need to do the first 100 steps of evolution of rule 110 from the pattern and use them as part of the repeating pattern on the initial tape 16:38:31 oh and it _was_ cook who proved 2,5 then? 16:38:39 nope, cook proved rule 110 16:38:49 I don't know if he was involved with the TM 16:39:03 but I suspect he would probably have noticed that the naive encoding for the tape doesn't work if he was 16:39:30 oh. could you take a look at the last diff of WP:Universal Turing Machine? 16:39:39 (i'd link you except :D) 16:39:59 except I'm already on the page? 16:40:12 except you censor irc links 16:40:38 I'd leave the {{fact}} tag there 16:40:51 the entire situation is slightly murky, we could do with a reliable source rather than conjecture 16:41:22 you can say that given an appropriate repeating initial tape, the turing machine simulates rule 110, because it does 16:41:34 but AFAIK I'm the only person who's proved that, and I've never written the proof down 16:41:50 come to think of it, I should probably write that proof down sometime, although it (should be) pretty easy to recreate 16:41:54 it doesn't fit into a margin... 16:42:09 i'll rewrite it to "based on the rule 110 automaton". is it ok if i edit summarize as "Alex Smith confirms it _was_ based on rule 110" 16:42:16 yes, it's OK 16:43:10 actually, the 2,3 machine has a really simple halting state 16:43:32 with the latest version of the proof, the halt state happens when the head goes to the left of its starting position 16:43:46 which means you can just use a semi-infinite tape if you like and get a halt state that way 16:43:47 oh 16:44:36 it was originally pretty routine, but more complex than that 16:44:43 but once I realised I could make the halt state that, I couldn't resist 16:50:54 oh. i'll mention that on the Talk:Tubes page. 16:53:38 do you want to be referred to? 16:53:54 it's fine if you mention me 16:54:09 heh, I could even say it myself, but for some reason I haven't been in a wiki talkpage discussion mood recently 16:55:13 well i'm asking because i had the impression you're trying to keep connections of your real name with your nick rare 16:56:13 so it's really about _how_ you want to be mentioned, too 16:56:42 yep, just use one or the other, not both 16:56:48 probably realname in this case 16:56:56 ok 16:58:57 ais523, do you have holidays yet over there? 16:59:18 AnMaster: the students are all on holiday due to post-exams 16:59:24 ais523, and you? 16:59:26 I'm not, though 16:59:31 hardly any holiday for the staff, in theory 16:59:36 ouch 16:59:38 but it's rather slow and I'm spending much of my time at home 17:00:01 ais523, so do you think you will have any time for feather, gcc-bf and so on during the summer? 17:00:07 possibly 17:00:12 maybe not, I have thousands of projects 17:00:20 well, hundreds, or possibly tens 17:00:22 but it feels like thousands 17:00:36 ah 17:02:50 -!- Gracenotes has quit (*.net *.split). 17:02:51 -!- mycroftiv has quit (*.net *.split). 17:02:51 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 17:03:13 you should just face it, you'll never have time for feather unless you go back in time and make it *ducks* (twice) 17:05:15 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 17:05:15 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 17:05:55 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 17:06:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:07:08 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo. 17:09:26 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:11:31 -!- cpressey has left (?). 17:16:33 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 17:28:39 -!- cal153 has joined. 17:29:29 -!- tombom has joined. 17:29:41 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:33:08 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:45:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:55:45 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:03:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:03:34 What's with the topic? 18:05:08 why, do you not find it esoteric enough? 18:05:39 it's the wrong sort of eso 18:06:03 hmm, news currently on the TV (which I'm not really watching) is all about China outsourcing vehicle manufacture to the UK 18:06:20 from a higher, enlightened perspective, there is no such thing as the wrong sort of eso 18:06:55 wait _to_ the UK? 18:07:03 ais523, It is a circle. 18:07:26 oerjan: yes 18:07:35 big news here, because loads of people are getting their jobs back 18:08:14 oerjan: Yeah, China's prosperous. :P 18:09:09 oerjan: it matters a lot to me because I live in an area which used to be all housing for vehicle manufacturing 18:09:39 and it went rather downhill after the plant closed, so it's nice to see it starting up again, it's possible the local streets will be filled with something other than vandals and joyriders 18:10:02 goths and vandals 18:10:52 nann ka yaxtute mo nann ka yaxtute mo EAMAN k`a taosenai yo! 18:11:07 (this has been pikhq attempting to convey rocking out over IRC and failing) 18:11:20 what the heck is rocking out 18:11:29 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLbFctG3tw0&feature=related 18:11:35 What you do when listening to that. 18:11:37 oerjan: it's a phrase mostly used by teenagers years ago 18:11:49 precise meaning is unknown, but it has something to do with certain styles of music 18:12:08 pikhq: for a moment i thought you were quoting gothic there 18:12:29 oerjan: No, bizarrely pedantic Japanese romanisation. 18:12:35 -!- cal153 has joined. 18:12:58 Because if I can't do Japanese input I can at least be more pedantic than *everyone else* who does romanised Japanese. 18:13:25 what's the x for 18:13:49 The following encoded kana is small. 18:14:08 huh 18:14:09 It's really more of a kana encoding scheme than an actual romanisation scheme. :P 18:14:28 is xtut what you'd normally write as tt? 18:14:54 Yes, in normal romanisation that'd be "nan ka yatte mo nan ka yatte mo eaman ga taosenai yo!" 18:16:31 mhm 18:21:37 pikhq: What about the "nann" 18:23:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ん 18:23:13 That's what I'm encoding as "nn". 18:23:55 Is there some possibility of ambiguity if you just use "n" 18:24:01 Yes. 18:25:28 Where? 18:26:25 One can have vowels following that. 18:27:21 Got an example? I don't think I've ever run into that 18:28:19 雰囲気ふんいき hunniki (fun'iki in Hepburn) 18:28:51 Though for god-knows what reason, it commonly gets pronounced as "fuinki" 18:30:54 how funky 18:37:46 Right, I think I've heard that one but never seen it written :-P 18:38:01 Or at least fuinki sounds familiar 18:40:59 It's a bit more common spoken, I've found. 18:50:12 "Felis sum et ad furandum veni" 18:50:26 "I am a cat and I have come to steal." 18:50:32 Or something like that. 18:50:43 s/I have come/I came/ 18:51:59 hmm, my suspicion is confirmed: nobody has tried to speedrun Neverwinter Nights 1 (or 2 fwiw), neither regular or TAS 18:52:29 The Latin comes from Science and Math Defeated. 18:54:09 ais523: Unless you mean the AOL game, there's a speedrun on youtube starting at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMnjuITemr8 18:54:13 ais523: That depends on your definition of "tried"; there's at least one in Youtube. 18:54:21 Gah. 18:54:41 ah, hmm 18:54:48 I was just checking the main sites 18:55:12 unless there's some glitch I don't know about, NWN must be one of the worst games to TAS ever 18:55:15 Whereas this "youtube" is some sort of weird half-unknown underground site. 18:55:16 up there with WarioWare 18:56:30 fizzie: More like one of the hosting services for TAS videos. 18:56:33 I'd just start by using your friendly neighbourhood search engine; they tend to index speeddemosarchive.com and tasvideos.org in addition to the underground sites like youtube 18:56:38 ais523: TAS? Ugh. 18:56:45 exactly 18:56:57 you can imagine how bad a warioware TAS would be 18:57:04 which is ironic, as people have actually tried 18:57:11 (the main issue is that you wouldn't see anything but the cutscenes) 18:58:05 hmm, that speedrun's ridiculous, they put all their points into strength, charisma, and persuade; is this some new way to break the game I've never heard of? 18:58:07 The cutscenes *are* fairly amusing. But still. Unless there's some amazing glitches, not worth it. 19:03:13 wow, so bizarre to see the cutscenes in that NWN speedrun 19:03:23 I play the Linux version, which is identical except it doesn't have cutscenes 19:03:35 (instead, there's a text file containing the text they have, which is kind-of cute) 19:20:15 -!- iamcal has joined. 19:23:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 19:23:06 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:25:32 -!- cal153 has joined. 19:29:45 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:38:08 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 19:40:02 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:41:55 -!- elliottcable has changed nick to ec. 19:42:26 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:42:49 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 19:46:46 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:06:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:25:29 -!- Oranjer has joined. 20:47:08 Oranjer! 20:54:56 Are there any mid-level languages like C other than C? 20:55:54 They all seem to be really low level or fairly high-level. 20:58:15 Well? 20:58:36 C++? 20:59:06 C with some high-level stuff tacked on. 20:59:11 It's not other than C. 20:59:17 fair 20:59:23 FORTRAN? 20:59:29 Pascal? 20:59:51 Pascal is pretty high-level, from what I remember. 21:00:17 FORTRAN, dunno. 21:00:55 I mean in the sense of "arrays are pointers" and such. 21:05:54 I was wondering because I had this crazy idea of a non-C-based OS. 21:08:39 I've just said something stupid, haven't I? 21:09:45 Phantom_Hoover: c'est possible 21:10:04 in the strictes sense, all os's are asm/machine code 21:10:23 Yes. 21:10:52 What's Windows actually written in? 21:11:10 Nobody knows... dam dum dumb 21:11:21 C, C++, asm 21:11:24 but judging by the numerous leaks, C 21:13:08 OS X? 21:13:20 It's unix+stuff, so C 21:13:21 Well, Objective C for the most part. 21:13:23 mostly 21:13:48 So, all of the major OSes are on a foundation of C. 21:14:09 yes, because it's perfect for what it does 21:14:15 cause it's this much [ ] easier than pure ASM 21:14:16 Exactly. 21:14:27 it's easier than ASM but abstracts very very little of it 21:14:33 It gives control structures, mainly. 21:14:54 and nice treatment of numbers and not having to remember operation names 21:15:03 it's also slightly harder to mix pointers and numbers 21:15:20 So is there another language which has C's level of abstraction? 21:15:50 There probably was once upon a time 21:15:52