00:00:55 <ais523> nah, you managed to kill both subjects
00:02:00 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Do you have any other strangeness apart from that food stuff? In comparison I am very boring illness wise.
00:02:25 <ais523> ehirdiphone: probably, but people tend to seem commonplace to themselves
00:02:33 <ais523> I sometimes have trouble standing up
00:02:38 <ais523> like I'm permanently drunk
00:02:46 <ais523> also, with apparently normal household obstacles like doors
00:02:49 <ais523> I'm surprisingly bad with doors
00:03:24 <ais523> normally it's taking multiple tries to open or close them
00:03:32 <ais523> I can try three times to close a door, fail, and then look at it sadly for a while
00:03:59 <ehirdiphone> I had my kidneys looked at with ultrasound a couple of days ago
00:04:12 <ehirdiphone> ais523: I cracked up at the looking sadly bit
00:06:41 <ais523> well, I was going for amusement value
00:06:44 <ehirdiphone> Oh my god the euro symbol is the quake ii logo on its side
00:07:52 <coppro> ais523: Stop me if I'm going to far, but how does one fail to close a door?
00:08:05 <Sgeo__> Also, UserFriendly did it
00:08:11 <ais523> coppro: by failing to push it hard enough
00:08:14 <ais523> or sometimes, pushing it so hard it bounces
00:08:24 <ais523> there isn't a lot that you can do wrong closing a door, but I manage it sometimes
00:08:37 <coppro> ais523: oh. I was imagining silly things like getting your hand caught in it or something
00:08:48 <ais523> ehirdiphone: it's happened
00:09:06 <coppro> failing to close a door can happen to anyone not familiar with the weight of the door in question
00:09:10 <ais523> bonus points if after the first push, you're too far from the door to reach it and have to run back to it to try again
00:09:10 * Sgeo__ tends to always fidget with something in his hands
00:09:16 <ehirdiphone> You're meant to walk it closed after you start pushing :P
00:09:32 <coppro> ais523: I've done that!
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00:10:13 * Sgeo__ has locked himself in his room
00:10:20 <coppro> The refrigerator in myself is quite tricky to close, actually
00:10:22 <Sgeo__> [Not now. In the past]
00:10:28 <coppro> not sure where that came from
00:11:31 <ais523> I once injured myself on a set of stairs by taking the turn where they changed direction too tightly and walking into the handrail
00:12:07 <coppro> sounds something like what I'd do if I was being silly
00:12:46 <coppro> also re: standing up. I think this is normal but I'm prone to bouts of dizziness from standing after sitting or lying down for a while (never in mornings, curiously enough). I've fallen from this before.
00:12:52 <ais523> in my case, it was just not paying attention
00:12:58 <ais523> coppro: oh, that is normal
00:13:06 <ais523> it's to do with the blood distribution in the body
00:13:14 <coppro> bad enough that you fall?
00:13:26 <ais523> normally you can take a few steps to stay upright
00:13:29 <ais523> or hold onto a wall or something
00:13:42 <coppro> I must have looked hilariously stupid
00:14:56 <fizzie> The fridge door here is curious in that it is very difficult to open for about 5 seconds immediately after it has been closed, if it has been open for more than a second or two.
00:15:53 <fizzie> It *feels* like some sort of pressure thing, but I don't really know how it happens.
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00:16:55 <fizzie> It does open if enough force is applied, but the amount of necessary pulling is a lot higher than the "ground state" of door-opening after it's been closed for a sufficient length of time.
00:17:05 <coppro> my fridge has double doors; there's no pillar in the middle so they have a creative sliding seal on the left hand door, which means that if the right-hand door is closed, it requires significant force to close all the way. If the other door is open, or whenever closing said other door, a light tap will do
00:17:08 <fizzie> ehirdiphone: It's still all about doors here.
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00:23:47 <coppro> ooh, what about a 2-d esolang where the flow control is in the form of doors?
00:25:18 <ehirdiphone> No. ais523 would just look at it sadly for a while.
00:26:05 <coppro> ooh, what if you had multiple IPs and you could decide what they did when confronted with a door?
00:26:17 <ehirdiphone> A good reason to grow a beard: making it into an orphanage!
00:26:19 <ais523> ehirdiphone: probably better to add it to the quotes file rather than parrot it in the channel forever
00:26:22 <coppro> so the other aspect of flow control would be what a given IP does in a situation
00:26:50 <ais523> what is up with that correction?
00:27:01 <ais523> my guess is you mean "unmeme", and your keyboard is incapable of typing it for some reason
00:27:23 <coppro> it's an iphone; it has autospellcheck
00:27:34 <ehirdiphone> ais523: I declined it's first correction accidentally so it's now convinced unmemw is a word.
00:27:50 <ais523> surely there's some way to correct it?
00:30:13 <ehirdiphone> Bye for real now. Do not say anything of interest!
00:30:44 <Sgeo__> There's a common joke that would normally be inserted here, and I'm the sort that does it, but I won't.
00:31:49 <Sgeo__> Although I guess I didn't say it. I'm shutting up now, bye.
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01:30:08 <wareya> Have there ever been any "case based" programming languages? In the same way as spoken languages can be case based.
01:32:49 <Sgeo__> Does the case sensitivity of most modern languages count?
01:33:18 <Sgeo__> What about the different between an upper-cased and lower-cased name in Haskell?
01:34:29 <coppro> other ML-likes are similar in that sensitivity
01:35:58 <Sgeo__> This is the best cut pizza I've had in a long time
01:37:51 <Gregor> AnMaster: I'm at an internship. I didn't bring all my hats.
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01:53:27 <wareya> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_case
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06:22:59 <pikhq> *Youtube comments in Japanese are intelligent*.
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06:49:14 <cpressey> Well, that was fun. NOw I have to sleep
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08:54:37 * oerjan suspects Gregor and oklopol will enjoy http://i.imgur.com/WXNmF.jpg
09:03:35 <oerjan> someone on reddit was nice enough to record it: http://www.vuvuzela-time.co.uk/i.imgur.com/WXNmF.jpg
09:04:54 * oerjan closes the tab just in time to avoid his brain creeping out
09:05:16 <oerjan> it creeped out long ago
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13:43:12 <AnMaster> <Gregor> AnMaster: I'm at an internship. I didn't bring all my hats. <-- you should have bought the pirate style one!
13:52:36 <augur> AnMaster: what's a silly furry love to say
13:52:58 <augur> what's a silly buddhist furry robot love to say?
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15:01:36 <AnMaster> augur, how does "furry" come into that?
15:01:58 <augur> "o mai" is a rather common thing for murry fur boys to say
15:02:30 <AnMaster> from that typo I conclude you are not using qwerty
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15:34:03 <cpressey> Todo item that I'll never have time for: Hack Pidgin to fetch the log as far back as the last-seen message, and format it in the chat window.
15:49:51 <AnMaster> cpressey, you use pidgin for irc?
15:50:15 <AnMaster> from what I heard it is quite horrible for irc.
15:50:28 <AnMaster> compared to a "dedicated" irc client like irssi, xchat and so on
15:50:38 <AnMaster> cpressey, hm how many channels are you on? Roughly
15:51:04 <AnMaster> I think someone said it worked okayish for less than 10 channels or such.
15:51:21 <cpressey> Less than 10. Only one is IRC.
15:55:07 <pikhq> Man... There are school libraries that have banned "The Chronicles of Narnia" under the belief that it's Satanic.
15:55:15 <pikhq> ... Never mind that Aslan is literally Jesus.
15:55:41 <AnMaster> I found narnia overly religious. Especially the last book.
15:55:56 <pikhq> Yes, being religious was the damned point.
15:56:26 <pikhq> The first and last books more-so than the rest.
15:57:01 <pikhq> (lessee... The Gospel and the end of the world... Yeah, that's going to be a bit much.)
16:04:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, the books in between however were quite okay.
16:04:51 <pikhq> Yeah. The religious analogs were still there, but significantly less so...
16:05:10 <pikhq> Making CS Lewis actually write well. :P
16:05:53 <pikhq> (he really is a decent writer when he's not hitting you over the head with a very thick hardcover Bible.)
16:05:59 <AnMaster> btw, can Lewis be both first name and family name?
16:06:29 <pikhq> Though it's more commonly spelt "Louis" as a first name.
16:06:52 <AnMaster> oh btw I recently noticed that strangely enough English doesn't have any adjective for "having a cold".
16:07:13 <pikhq> There's many individual words that English lacks.
16:07:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, doesn't the author of Alice in Wonderland spell it Lewis or something like that?
16:07:26 <pikhq> We are really, really fond of making phrases.
16:07:33 <pikhq> Lewis Carol? Yeah.
16:07:38 <pikhq> BTW, that's a pen name.
16:08:24 <pikhq> Real name is Charles Lutwidge Dodgson.
16:08:45 <AnMaster> hm English is rather poor when it comes to something like the Swedish concatenation "genomförkyld" (concatenation of "genom" [through] and "förkyld" [adjective for having a cold])
16:09:31 <pikhq> Though little *used*, English is quite capable of concatenating just like the other Germanic languages.
16:09:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, but that doesn't express the "through" bit, which is used to indicate "having a bad cold" in this case
16:09:47 <pikhq> I blame the Normans.
16:10:22 <AnMaster> it is used as a "strengthening" prefix I guess you could say
16:10:52 <pikhq> Though it'd be more commonly written as something like bad-cold-having.
16:10:56 * Sgeo__ WTFs at Chrome slowing his computer down beyond all belief
16:11:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, which sounds awkward as well, though it looks slightly less awkward
16:11:42 <AnMaster> "Not particularly" wrt. which part? sounding or looking?
16:11:49 <pikhq> Though you're most likely to just end up with a longer phrase...
16:12:18 <pikhq> But, yeah. It'd probably be said more as "The x which has a bad cold".
16:12:34 <pikhq> Because English loves to make sentences longer.
16:12:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, "Jag är genomförkyld" = "I am bad-cold-having"?
16:13:05 <AnMaster> the former sounds perfectly normal for casual spoken Swedish.
16:13:21 <AnMaster> the latter sounds like rather awkward English
16:13:21 <pikhq> Though *quite* awkward, it parses.
16:13:56 <pikhq> I can only imagine that being used by someone who enjoys odd language constructs more than I, or someone making a joke of some sort.
16:14:04 <pikhq> Though I'm not sure how you could make a joke around that.
16:14:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes but it does require the reader/listener to pause for a moment and figure out the answer to "wth was that?"
16:16:01 <AnMaster> though I love the way you can add an extra e to some words in English to create new words. It is quite elegant.
16:16:38 <AnMaster> hm I guess you could say "talkee"
16:16:57 <pikhq> Very odd for that word, though.
16:17:23 <pikhq> I think because there *exists* a commonly used noun to refer to the other end of that; "listener".
16:17:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, but is a wonderful construct in English that is sadly underused.
16:17:49 <pikhq> It's very heavily used in legal English.
16:18:03 <AnMaster> hm listenee would be someone talking then? :D
16:18:30 <AnMaster> hm I guess I haven't read enough legal English
16:18:40 <pikhq> I recommend against it.
16:18:47 <AnMaster> but if it is anything like legal Swedish...
16:19:12 <pikhq> Not because it's *hard* (it isn't once you get used to the specific phrasing used), but because it's *ugly*.
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16:19:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, was you here when I mentioned that unusually bureaucratic legal-Swedish way of writing "milk cow"?
16:19:51 <pikhq> No, don't think I was.
16:20:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah, it was "grönfoderomvandlande mjölkproduktionsenhet", which in English would be "green fodder converting milk production unit"
16:20:29 <pikhq> BTW, mmm, remnants of grammatical constructs.
16:20:43 <pikhq> It's not *quite* that bad in English.
16:21:25 <pikhq> "GreenFodderConvertingMilkProductionUnit" amuses me greatly, though.
16:21:40 <pikhq> (that sucker needs some camelCase)
16:23:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, this was quite extreme for Swedish even. I heard about this from a journalist I knew (RIP). She said she read it in some report. She found the thing so strange that she called the one who wrote it and asked why. Apperently the person who wrote that phrase had been unable to understand that there was any issue with it...
16:23:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh and it is two words in Swedish. Can't make it one. "GreenFodderConverting MilkProductionUnit"
16:23:41 <AnMaster> well at least I can't think of a way to make it one word
16:23:49 <pikhq> The crazy thing about legal English is that it retains a *lot* from Law French.
16:24:08 <pikhq> (which was itself a bizarre hybrid of English, Norman French, Latin, and Greek...)
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16:25:34 <pikhq> Common use of -ee, -or, -er.
16:26:11 <AnMaster> and -er sounds quite normal? talker speaker listener? and so on
16:26:18 <AnMaster> or do you mean in some other sense?
16:26:23 <pikhq> Not to the extent they use it.
16:26:41 <pikhq> Also, the main point is using -er and -ee to indicate a reciprocal relationship.
16:26:55 <AnMaster> any example of -er use that sounds awkward?
16:27:45 <pikhq> Hmm. Can't think of any ATM.
16:28:00 <AnMaster> and -or, would that be like in actor?
16:28:15 <AnMaster> hm is that act as a verb or as a noun btw?
16:28:30 <pikhq> There's also a very odd tendency to use French-order for adjectives.
16:29:01 <pikhq> And an incredible number of French loan words.
16:29:29 <pikhq> The canonical example is "attorney general".
16:29:45 <pikhq> (plural, that's "attornies general")
16:30:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, would they use it outside fixed (possibly old) phrases like that?
16:30:40 <pikhq> Not generally. But there are a *lot* of such fixed phrases.
16:31:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, does this apply to both UK and US?
16:31:19 <pikhq> Law French is freaking *old*.
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16:31:49 <pikhq> The differences between legal English in various English-speaking languages come down to differences in legal systems, not in manners of composing legal text.
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16:32:54 <pikhq> s/languages/countries/
16:33:23 <pikhq> Of course, most of those countries have only really been independent from the UK for a good 60 years or so.
16:34:54 <AnMaster> yeah I expected US and possibly AU to have larger differences
16:35:40 <pikhq> About the only difference is that the UK still has laws in Law French on the books.
16:35:49 <pikhq> ... And actual Norman French, for that matter.
16:36:31 <AnMaster> you would have expected them to have been replaced what with the long time spent as an enemy of France...
16:37:04 <pikhq> Yes, about since the Norman invasion which made them have Norman French and Law French on the books.
16:37:55 <pikhq> Of course, during the time that anyone cared *that* much, the aristocracy spoke French, and after that stopped, well, apathy doesn't make you replace laws.
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17:10:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm really beginning to wonder whether using 32-bit Linux was a good idea.
17:10:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, if your CPU doesn't support 64-bit it is your best option
17:10:58 <AnMaster> if it however does support it, then you should probably use 64-bit
17:11:10 <AnMaster> since you can still run 32-bit apps just fine.
17:11:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, then I can tell you if you have it or not
17:12:47 -!- hiato has changed nick to fifasuck.
17:12:54 <Phantom_Hoover> flags: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts aperfmperf pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm xsave lahf_lm
17:12:54 <Phantom_Hoover> flags: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts aperfmperf pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm xsave lahf_lm
17:13:04 <AnMaster> ah there it comes, no need for twice though
17:13:17 <AnMaster> and yes you have "lm" in there (stands for long mode)
17:13:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no clue what dtes64 is
17:13:30 <AnMaster> but it is lm and lahf_lm you want to look for
17:13:42 <AnMaster> though I never heard of any system with lm and lacking lahf_lm
17:13:58 <AnMaster> lahf_lm indicates that you can run 32-bit apps while in 64-bit mode
17:14:08 <AnMaster> but afaik all x86_64 cpus allow that
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17:14:55 <cpressey> With a can of gasoline and a flamethrower
17:15:37 <cpressey> But I don't see what's really wrong with it now, unless there is a 64-bit app you *need* to run?
17:15:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I heard about people converting an existing install... It isn't something I would attempt myself. It involves having two userland versions side by side for a bit and having to manually call the dynamic linker... like /lib/ld-linux-x86-32.so.2 /bin/mv
17:16:54 <Phantom_Hoover> If it fails, I'll need the soul of your first-born child again.
17:17:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, personally I would rather play minesweeper on "large" setting while wearing a blindfold than trying to convert an existing 32-bit system without a reinstall.
17:17:27 <pikhq> cpressey: MOAR ADDRESS SPACE
17:18:06 <cpressey> Beh, who would ever need more than 640K?
17:18:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: Actually, static link a busybox before hand would work best.
17:18:28 <AnMaster> cpressey, for x86_64, you have lots of advantages apart from the larger address space. Such as more registers, RIP relative addressing, NX, a less sucky base level for non-source-based distros.
17:18:48 <cpressey> For that ultimate minesweeper experience
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17:19:14 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover, binary distros optimise for a Pentium Pro or a 486 for x86.
17:19:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, if you make a binary distro you have to compile for the least advanced CPU you want to support
17:19:27 <pikhq> Not a Pentium Pro MMX. Just a Pentium Pro.
17:19:33 <AnMaster> since otherwise binaries won't run on the old ones
17:19:44 <pikhq> So the floating point unit used is the x87.
17:19:47 <AnMaster> 32-bit arch linux has i686 as the base
17:19:57 <pikhq> Yeah, that's a Pentium Pro.
17:20:23 <AnMaster> some other distros has i586 or even older as the base.
17:20:27 <pikhq> With x86_64, you can assume the existence of SSE2.
17:20:44 <AnMaster> possibly with a few libraries in multiple versions. Probably only for libc
17:21:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Right, so I need to make an _enormous_ archive containing my home directory, then install?
17:21:21 <pikhq> Actually, the *really* speed-dependent stuff has code to detect CPU features and toggle through different versions of functions...
17:21:27 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, do you have your home dir on a separate partition?
17:21:36 <pikhq> Well. Speed-dependent stuff and anything written by Ulrich Drepper.
17:21:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, if so, then you could just select to use that and not reformat it I guess.
17:22:52 <AnMaster> Plus, quite a lot of the stuff in my home dir would fall into at least one of the categories a) easy to replace b) binary and thus would probably benefit from being recompiled after such a switch anyway
17:23:05 <AnMaster> for a it is mostly version control checkouts for various stuff
17:23:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm mount | grep /home?
17:23:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, without the question mark
17:23:33 <AnMaster> "mount | grep /home" was the command bit as such
17:23:52 <AnMaster> /dev/mapper/array-home on /home type ext4 (rw,noatime)
17:24:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well gvfs is some pseudo thingy that is related to gnome iirc
17:24:41 <AnMaster> never used it directly personally
17:25:19 <Phantom_Hoover> So I need to make a massive archive of ~, then put in on (preferably at least 2) flash drives, then reinstall?
17:25:44 <AnMaster> hm well I guess so. But how large is your home dir?
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17:26:50 <AnMaster> well, I recently grew mine from 25 GB to 50 GB so I guess large is not uncommon
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17:28:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you could run "du -sh ~" but it might take some time, especially if it mostly consists of lots of small files, rather than fewer large ones
17:28:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it would take quite a while to get some of it back.
17:29:36 <AnMaster> I would expect disk seeking noise for about a minute while it recursively scanned the dir
17:29:56 <AnMaster> but then maybe you have more of the "few large" variety of files
17:31:06 <AnMaster> du -sh ~/src takes 20 seconds or so. 2.1 GB
17:31:16 <AnMaster> lots and lots of small files there
17:31:44 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no external harddrive?
17:31:45 <AnMaster> how do you make your weekly backups then?
17:31:55 <AnMaster> also why the heck am I having 13 seconds lag...
17:32:36 <cpressey> So... you have nothing worth backing up? Then just reinstall!
17:32:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, I have 1) RAID 1 2) backups (not offsite sadly, but if I had another site where I could store them then it would be off site!)
17:33:15 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, nothing worth the trouble of buying an external drive, but I don't want to spend ages fixing things.
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17:33:58 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I can see the "ugh, I have to set that all up again!" angle
17:34:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, let me see if I got this straight: 1) you don't want to spend ages fixing things after a controlled reinstall, where you can plan ahead to avoid deadlines. 2) you do not mind having to spend ages fixing things if you harddrive crash half an hour before an important deadline?
17:35:10 <AnMaster> I don't know what you do but I would hate missing the deadline of an assignment due to a disk crash
17:35:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I guess you haven't had any programming assignments then.
17:35:45 <AnMaster> plus I can't think of a better way to write a lab report than using latex :P
17:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't actually do computing any more, so everything I do is effectively pointless.
17:35:57 <cpressey> There are tools out there to make setting up a machine the way you like it, easier, but they are generally primitive and they generally suck.
17:36:14 <cpressey> At least, IMo. If they solve problems, they aren't mine.
17:36:21 <AnMaster> cpressey, eh? they write your .bashrc or what?
17:36:44 <cpressey> AnMaster: basically, install and configure packages, yes.
17:36:55 <AnMaster> cpressey, I thought the package manager did that...
17:37:30 <cpressey> AnMaster: It does it manually. These things use the package manager.
17:37:34 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, huh? Last I checked the data dir was about 2 GB
17:37:47 <AnMaster> but then I haven't had time for flightgear for almost a year
17:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover> The script I used to compile it used CVS to fetch the data, so it downloaded only the KSFO scenery, but *every* aircraft.
17:38:17 <AnMaster> cpressey, distro specific I assume?
17:38:41 <cpressey> AnMaster: No idea. Just know the basics of it./
17:38:44 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, the 2 GB was CVS as of about a year ago
17:39:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, btw what joystick/yoke do you use?
17:42:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that works fine for smaller aircrafts but I wouldn't want to touch an helicopter without joystick+throttle AND rudder pedals
17:43:00 <AnMaster> with those helicopters are merely insanely difficult. Without those it is impossible
17:43:20 <AnMaster> though having a joystick with a spring makes it rather unsuited to helicopters
17:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> (The aforementioned friend actually flies in one of the Virtual Airlines)
17:44:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I can't imagine a wii remote would work very well as a joystick?
17:47:12 <AnMaster> huh 2.6.34 haven't yet had any patch level release? how strange
17:57:43 <pikhq> Compilers love having more registers.
17:58:45 <AnMaster> kernel.org uses an invalid security certificate.
17:58:45 <AnMaster> The certificate is only valid for *.kernel.org
17:58:51 <pikhq> Particularly with shared libraries... Not being able to address relative to the instruction pointer results in shared libraries having, what, 3 general purpose registers?
17:59:22 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: If you don't have deadlines, the question is IMO meaningless.
18:00:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:00:38 <cpressey> Well, only you know why you even *have* a computer, so...
18:02:04 <cpressey> Assuming you get a kick out of playing with technology, rebuilding kernels or whatever, sure, 64-bit is yet another thing to play with...
18:02:31 <pikhq> Oh, wait. There's also esi and edi. 5 general purpose registers.
18:03:02 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Hats...?
18:03:32 <oerjan> http://choosemyhat.com/
18:05:46 <oerjan> someone _here_ by any chance?
18:06:48 <pikhq> Well. Arguably, x86 has *0* general purpose registers.
18:06:55 <oerjan> well maybe i should check out the FBI most wanted list
18:07:41 <pikhq> It has an accumulator register, base register, counter register, data register, source index, destination index, stack pointer, and base pointer.
18:08:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I agree with oerjan's proposal for an explosion register.
18:08:40 <pikhq> Various instructions implicitly use one register.
18:10:22 <oerjan> i regret to say that list has no one particularly resembling Gregor.
18:10:52 <oerjan> well maybe that guy with the turban and beard could be him.
18:13:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, once I've upgraded to 64-bit, how do I move my home folder over?
18:14:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:14:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: ... where do you plan to have it while you upgrade?
18:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I was thinking of a flash drive, but there's almost certainly a better way.
18:15:54 <cpressey> Well, I think the filesystem itself is independent of the bittage of the software running from it.
18:16:08 <cpressey> So, if you could read it under 32-bit, you can read it under 64-bit.
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18:17:25 <oerjan> and a good day to you, sir
18:17:27 <cpressey> So you probably don't have to move it at all, unless you want to reformat the disk to make sure you get rid of all the old binaries. But if something goes wrong, yes. Anything worth keeping should be kept twice, in two different places :)
18:18:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, so it's just a matter of overwriting the conflicting files?
18:18:11 * waga loves 3code and has begun adding cool features to it
18:18:24 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Don't quote me on that, but yes, I think so.
18:18:33 <cpressey> The tricky part is running the software to do that, while you do that.
18:19:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway you probably want to tar it up before putting it on flash. at least of the drive is FAT32. Otherwise you will get everything set to executable when copying it back
18:19:23 <cpressey> Booting from a 64-bit liveCD sounds like the easiest way to do that.
18:19:32 <waga> Does anyone now a python online interpreter?
18:20:24 <waga> install python here because of the veery slow internet connection i have now
18:21:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, why? tar -zcf home.tar.gz /home/<username>
18:21:31 <cpressey> Or try lua -- faster download over a slow connection ;)
18:22:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you probably want -p when unpacking (means "preserve premissions)
18:22:04 <waga> i want to do a brainfuck interpreter in 20 programming languages
18:22:21 <waga> and i tought to star with those i know.
18:22:38 <waga> I almost finished the assembler written one. ^^
18:23:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, iirc tar supports pausing when the tape drive indicates that the tape needs to be switched ;P
18:23:24 <AnMaster> of course that rather depends on using tapes rather than flash memory
18:23:44 <oerjan> waga: oh, hm, was it you who copied all that 3code information to the wiki? i had to remove it, it's copyrighted
18:24:28 <waga> i added some commands to 3code
18:25:00 <waga> how do you know if a text is copywrighted?
18:25:09 <waga> for example if i
18:25:25 <waga> add a text from a random website(eg: cnn)
18:25:35 <waga> how are you going to know?
18:25:46 <waga> i would think of googleing it
18:26:06 <oerjan> waga: if it _doesn't_ say otherwise, and is not very old, then it is copyrighted
18:26:42 <oerjan> yeah googling might help, in this case the copier said where it was from (and for that matter the link was already in the article)
18:26:59 <waga> but how do you get the original source?
18:27:54 <oerjan> well if i suspect nothing, and don't _think_ of googling it, then i obviously won't know
18:28:23 <oerjan> cpressey: i don't think EgoBot has python, no.
18:28:32 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
18:28:33 <waga> what is egobot
18:28:49 <waga> What is egobot?
18:28:54 <waga> but what it does
18:29:06 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.22842 \ wunderbar_emporium
18:29:27 <cpressey> but something called 'rail'...
18:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Although you're not going to get anything useful out of it
18:29:56 <waga> cat poetry.txt
18:30:08 <cpressey> i can buy perl being esoteric, but haskell?
18:30:10 <oerjan> waga: it does lots of interpreters, mainly, some ordinary and some esoteric, and some other programs - you can add programs written in the base languages
18:30:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Is HackEgo the one that DCCs the output if it's too long?
18:30:31 <HackEgo> A Poem -- Roses are red, violets are free. In Soviet Russia, you love me.
18:30:38 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, that's EgoBot
18:30:46 <HackEgo> A Poem -- Roses are red, violets are free. In Soviet Russia, you love me.
18:30:52 <oerjan> HackEgo just puts // between lines iirc
18:30:53 <AnMaster> cpressey, everything is esoteric if you knows nothing in the same paradigm
18:31:18 <cpressey> AnMaster: is that why this channel is so rarely on-topic?
18:31:18 <waga> so, would `rm -r * work?
18:31:34 <AnMaster> cpressey, could be. Never considered that before.
18:32:00 <AnMaster> cpressey, I rather suspect it is that most in here have some problems with concentrating on anything specific for any length of time
18:32:15 <AnMaster> You have mail in /var/spool/mail/<user name>
18:32:25 <AnMaster> Alpine finished -- Closed empty folder "INBOX"
18:32:40 <AnMaster> whatever gave the first message seems buggy
18:32:46 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
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18:33:49 <AnMaster> cpressey, err ` is exec() iirc not system()
18:34:03 <HackEgo> 0+0 records in \ 0+0 records out \ 0 bytes (0 B) copied, 0.000109175 s, 0.0 kB/s
18:34:18 <AnMaster> the command `run uses the shell
18:34:28 <cpressey> Ok, the unbelievably useful "run" command.
18:34:48 <AnMaster> hm it might be in the bot itself
18:35:02 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.23684/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
18:35:11 <HackEgo> 2to3-2.6 \ X11 \ [ \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ apropos \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-curses \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ axi-cache \ base64 \ basename \ bashbug
18:36:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it runs in a locked down chroot thingy. with nothing in the chroot at all, phash or something it is called. It loads a replacement for libc as LD_PRELOAD. And that library uses some pipe to talk to a server outside the chroot to do all the fs stuff
18:41:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, very unlikely you are going to be able to mess up the system though
18:43:43 <cpressey> I think it's called PLASH? You can google it
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18:59:24 <oklopol> so that game where you have some pieces and you can jump over another piece and remove it and you want to eat everything except one piece
18:59:42 <oklopol> "eat" is probably a finnishm, sry
19:00:25 <oklopol> (although i'm pretty sure i might've used it even if it wasn't)
19:02:16 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peg_solitaire
19:14:36 <oklopol> i like that game, you can get pretty far mentally, so it doesn't feel like search on small boards
19:22:15 <cpressey> speaking of eating, there are highway restaurants here that have that game on every table, so you can play it while you wait for your food... :)
19:33:29 <oklopol> since "* oklopol asks python"
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19:35:49 <oerjan> oklopol: 17 minutes. hope this helps.
19:35:52 <cpressey> The number says it all, really.
19:36:38 <oklopol> oerjan: i don't see timestamps
19:37:00 <cpressey> It says I'm not betting that you know what the word 'Befunge' refers to.
19:37:01 <oklopol> wanted to see how long it takes me to code something like that
19:37:30 <cpressey> Well, for another few years, anyway.
19:37:52 <oerjan> cpressey: wait, i vaguely thought i'd seen alex2012 before. which means i might _vaguely_ bet.
19:38:06 <cpressey> oerjan: Well, I might lose some money, I suppose.
19:38:13 <alex2012> Chris Pressey child called befunge? :D
19:38:21 <cpressey> A risk always comes with betting.
19:38:29 <oklopol> oerjan: is it a nondeterministic bet or a quantum bet?
19:38:38 <cpressey> Oh, see, there, I lost. Or alex2012 can use Google.
19:39:06 <oklopol> nondeterministic betting might be pretty profitable
19:39:34 <oerjan> oklopol: well given the circumstances, it'll be a quantum morphogenetic karmic astral bet
19:40:14 <oklopol> cpressey: are you sure? unless "child" refers to "creation"
19:41:45 <oerjan> oklopol: stop bumbling about hitting things
19:42:57 <alex2012> karmic astral bet hmm seems karma got assigned wrong house of origin :)
19:43:36 <oerjan> oklopol: ok i'm still not sure either :D
19:44:31 <oklopol> alex2012: do you mean like linguistically? you're hard to read
19:44:53 <alex2012> I mean karma origin lies mainly in casual sphere
19:45:02 <oerjan> karmic betting only in the fifth house, please!
19:45:55 <oklopol> and that's not the ...astrum for causes?
19:46:18 <oklopol> karma is in the casual sphere, not in the astral sphere?
19:46:21 <oerjan> alex2012: i don't know how to break this to you gently, but the channel topic is a lie, except for the part about programming languages
19:46:51 <alex2012> I was wondering it there is connection between two
19:47:27 <oerjan> alex2012: well we're _still_ waiting for zzo38 to make his tarot programming language
19:47:30 <oklopol> what other spheres are there, and what things reside in spheres, am i in some sphere?
19:48:28 <oklopol> and are these spheres sets S(x,r) = {y | d(x,y)=r} for some metric space
19:49:00 <oerjan> oklopol: probably spheres of harmony
19:49:01 <oklopol> alex2012: it's an open problem whether humans reside in a sphere?
19:49:19 <oklopol> is there a standing conjecture
19:50:05 <oerjan> no this conjecture is a sitting duck
19:50:52 <alex2012> oklopol I can be equally presend in every point of creation :) however mind and some other things do act as a filter so what one perceives depends on his consitution
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19:52:34 <oklopol> filter as in the kind where you only take those elements of a list that satisfy a predicate or the kind where you take all elements bigger than the generators, and all their finite infs?
19:53:08 <oklopol> i guess consitution would imply filter, how filter works depends on what you've consed to what
19:53:25 <oklopol> presending sounds like time travel
19:53:52 <oklopol> and do you want to learn brainfuck
19:56:56 * Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from.
19:58:01 <cpressey> To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia in there.
19:59:27 <oerjan> `addquote * Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. <cpressey> To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia in there.
19:59:30 <HackEgo> 183|* Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. <cpressey> To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia in there.
20:00:25 <oklopol> basically you have an infinite chain of suspicious crystals that each come in 256 different shades, one of which is smelly, and you have another chain of marvellous crystals that come in 5 different shades, one of which, blue, always has a loop in its side (which is basically another smaller chain, which can contain other blue crystals having chains on the side etc). what you do is you look at each marvellous crystal at a time, if yo
20:00:40 <oerjan> oklopol: yes, unfortunately
20:00:58 <oklopol> i forgot looping conditions
20:01:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:01:28 <oklopol> so okay when you see a blue one, you step on its chain if smelly is not of shade 0, if it's 0, then you just skip the blue one
20:01:45 <oklopol> what you do is you look at each marvellous crystal at a time, if you see a red one, you increase the shade of the smelly crystal by one, if you see a yellow one, you decrease it by one, black moves the smelly crystal one step forward, white moves it one step backwards
20:01:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:02:21 <oklopol> this is different from the usual bf in that nothing says loops can't nest infinitely, but this is purer
20:03:20 <oklopol> heheheheheeehhehehhhehheheheheheee
20:04:22 <oklopol> okay so turns out you shouldn't make brute force search programs modular. or write them in python i guess.
20:04:32 <oklopol> i have a list of rewrite rules
20:05:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Excess Flood).
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20:07:56 <alex2012> oklopol I am away and not all to here
20:10:02 <oklopol> essentially the point is you have an infinite graph^W collection of crystals connected by strings made of out of liquid consciousness, and each of these, at each time step, forwards to a neighboring crystal depending on current value of smelly crystal, forwards what? well your essence hovering over these crystals ofc, maybe i should've mentioned that. and also we can do stuff to the smelly crystal, or move on the chain of marvellous
20:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> If something runs on 32-bit Linux will it generally run on 64-bit?
20:10:27 <oklopol> no one says we can't have an infinite collection of crystals connected by strings of liquid consciousness on the side of marvellous crystals too
20:10:35 <oklopol> maybe that would be prettier
20:10:53 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I would extremely surprised if there wasn't some kind of "shim" that lets you run 32-bit bin... ok, neverminding.
20:11:59 <fizzie> Mostly you just need 32-bit versions of libraries.
20:12:20 <oklopol> crystals are more interesting than linuces
20:12:29 <fizzie> Debian/Ubuntu have a "ia32-libs" megapackage that contain many.
20:12:43 <fizzie> And other stuff with "32" in the name.
20:13:32 <fizzie> Debian also has some sort of system that can automagically convert 32-bit library .debs for installation in a 64-bit system.
20:36:15 * cpressey dreams of an esoteric resource compiler
20:36:59 <cpressey> Like Microsoft's resource compiler of olde.
20:38:50 <cpressey> Not that rc wasn't esoteric in its own way: http://www.indexdata.com/blog/2009/12/my-funniest-bug-ever-windows-2-resource-compiler
20:39:20 <cpressey> Compiles icons and other crap into a big opaque blob of data in your DLL.
20:39:53 <cpressey> To this day, changing the desktop icon of a Windows app starts you off looking for icon images in the DLL.
20:40:22 <cpressey> Yeah, basically tar-meets-a-crippled-and-illiterate-ld.
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21:16:54 <oklopol> you made a set of aperiodic tiles with a seed right
21:17:30 <uorygl> Like ABAABABA..., aye?
21:17:38 <oklopol> see the smallest tileset in the world, which i'm currently doing stuff with, is also based on those
21:17:46 <oklopol> although it doesn't use a seed
21:18:01 <oklopol> with a seed the problem is trivial, although did you use a whole line as a seed?
21:18:06 <oklopol> then it's a bit less trivial
21:18:54 <oklopol> basically you put sturmian representations of numbers on the ns edges, so that what, and use se
21:19:30 <oklopol> basically you put sturmian representations of numbers on the ns edges, so that what comes from the north is multiplied by something, and you use ew edges for carries
21:20:13 <uorygl> What if what comes from the north is zero?
21:21:05 <oklopol> you can prevent that by not having a division from 0-1 to 0-1
21:21:26 <oklopol> in the current world record set, you simply mark zeroes so that you can't use division twice
21:21:57 <oklopol> anyway if the multiplier is a rational number then sturmian representations mean we only need a finite amount of tiles that multiply by some number
21:22:06 <uorygl> Not having a division? Hm?
21:23:00 <oklopol> well umm maybe i should explain this in slightly more detail, i'll pm k?
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21:45:06 <oklopol> speaking of brightness, how many seconds does it take you to solve this: let A, B and C be paperbags. there's exactly one stone in A and B taken together, same for B and C, and altogether the bags contain 2 stones. where are the stones?
21:46:51 <ais523> but I only just read the question
21:46:54 <ais523> and forgot to time myself
21:47:43 <ais523> maybe about 10, half of it was trying to figure out what the question was
21:47:44 <oklopol> explain why, in pm, original proof that is
21:47:48 <ais523> from there it's simple algebra
21:48:01 <oklopol> this problem interests me, because it is actually hard for many people
21:50:09 <oerjan> there is 1 stone in A, 2 stones in B and 1 stone in C
21:51:17 <Phantom_Hoover> If I use tar cjf on a folder with a bzip2 archive in it, does it then try to compress the archive?
21:51:38 <cpressey> oklopol: modus tollens is apparently a harder concept to grasp than modus ponens
21:51:42 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:51:45 <ais523> but recompressing an already-compressed file makes it only a few bytes larger
21:51:48 <ais523> or sometimes even smaller
21:53:10 <zzo38> How many references to copper silver gold do you think is in the book "Godel, Escher, Bach"?
21:54:46 <ais523> alternative answer: nest bags A and C and put 3 stones in the inner of those; then put -1 stone in bag B and put it inside the inner of bags A and C as well
21:54:48 <zzo38> I can find partial references, such as some things that mention only gold, and so on
21:55:00 <ais523> zzo38: I'm guessing more than 5 and less than 10
21:55:38 <ais523> oklopol: does my answer fit your assumptions?
21:55:47 <zzo38> Does the bottom of page 139 count? Maybe they tried and failed
21:55:59 <ais523> zzo38: I don't have a copy of the book on me right now to check, I'm not at home
21:57:48 <zzo38> The bottom of page 139, the Lucas sequence, "29 + 47 = 76" same recursive rule as for the Fibonacci numbers. It is partial because 29 and 47 count but 76 is different
21:58:01 <zzo38> I don't know whether that was intentional or not
21:58:14 <oklopol> ais523: to answer really boringly, no
21:58:28 <ais523> oklopol: maybe you need to reconsider your assumptions
21:59:20 <ais523> oklopol: took me a few minutes to come up with that alternate answer
21:59:22 <cpressey> oklopol: You and your preconceived notions about negative stones!
21:59:38 <zzo38> How many files do you have?
21:59:46 <ais523> cpressey: nesting the bags is a common solution to lateral-thinking puzzles, but unfortunately it seems you need negative stones to make it work too
22:00:45 <ais523> hmm, this reminds me of the famous lightbulbs lateral thinking problem; I'll state a generalisation of it
22:00:57 <zzo38> My own files on my computer are not even 2 GB, even uncompressed.
22:01:22 <zzo38> You must have a lot more files, or else you must have a lot of videos, or audio, or pornography.
22:01:23 <ais523> assume that you have access to two rooms, one of which contains a bunch of switches, and another of which contains a bunch of lightbulbs; you're the only person in either room for the duration of the experiment (and you can't get help from anyone/anything else, just you)
22:01:54 <zzo38> Maybe I used up less disk space because I don't like pornography
22:01:56 <ais523> each switch controls one lightbulb, in that changing the position of the switch changes whether the lightbulb is lit or not; assume the simplest possible circuit for doing so in case it matters
22:02:17 <zzo38> ais523: I have heard of this
22:02:21 <ais523> now, the rules are: you start in the room with the switches, and you can move from the room with the switches into the room with the lightbulbs, but not the other way
22:02:24 <ais523> zzo38: I'm not surprised
22:02:33 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Then you must have a lot of videos, or very large audio files
22:02:54 <ais523> and the question is, what's the maximum number of lightbulbs for which you can determine with certainty which lightbulb is connected to which switch?
22:03:08 <ais523> the puzzle's normally asked with just 3 lightbulbs, but it's possible to get a lot more than that
22:03:31 <ais523> I can think of a solution for at least 6, but there's quite possibly a way to get more
22:03:52 <cpressey> ais523: Well, if they are momentary contact switches, then zero. I'll assume not.
22:04:02 <cpressey> I don't offhand see how it could be more than 2.
22:04:07 <ais523> cpressey: no, they're toggle switches, and there's a defined on position
22:04:46 <ais523> and as usual with lateral thinking puzzles, you have to look at the various assumptions involved
22:05:02 <cpressey> It seems that if there is >1 on, or >1 off, there is an ambiguity.
22:05:06 <ais523> hmm, I've maybe thought of a way to get a seventh and eighth
22:05:18 <ais523> cpressey: yes, you have to rely on the fact that RL lightbulbs are not the same as mathematical booleans
22:05:43 <cpressey> Oh. Well then tear open the wall with a crowbar and follow the wiring?
22:05:55 <fizzie> There's the usual temperature trick.
22:06:01 <cpressey> No crowbar would mean using bare hands -- that would hurt and take a long time though.
22:06:06 <ais523> fizzie: the temperature trick is the intended answer, I think
22:06:17 <ais523> cpressey: but once you've followed one wire, you're in the lightbulb room and can't go back to follow the next one
22:06:53 <cpressey> Well, you see where all the wires exit the room, and then in the other room, see where they all enter. Then the limit is your memory.
22:06:55 <zzo38> Maybe turn on one light until it is on long enough to stop working
22:07:07 <zzo38> Would that work? I'm not sure
22:07:14 <ais523> zzo38: that was my first solution, and you can combine it with the temperature trick to get six
22:07:51 <ais523> hmm, just thought of an answer that might work for infinitely many lightbulbs; if you dismantle the switches and cross-wire the wires supplying them to each other in various patterns, then in the lightbulb room you could start disconnecting and connecting lightbulbs to see which other lightbulbs turned on and off when you did
22:08:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Including directories, there are 82,480 files on my system.
22:08:35 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: are you counting hardlinked files as number of links or number of files?
22:08:37 <cpressey> ais523: Or -- in the first room, strip some insulation from each wire, and use your tongue to detect electrical current.
22:08:54 <ais523> cpressey: I don't see how that helps you correlate lightbulbs to switches, though
22:09:13 <cpressey> ais523: You're right of course, but it's a wild party game.
22:10:39 <cpressey> There is apparently a hailstorm headed this way, and my coworkers are leaving to avoid being struck by chunks of ice being hurled through the sky buy gale-force winds.
22:11:00 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Do you mean "find | wc -l" or something like that
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22:11:03 <ais523> cpressey: are you planning to do the same? or do you live in your office? or do you have some more ingenious plan?
22:11:35 <cpressey> ais523: Well, I live really nearby, like a 2-minute walk, so I'm debating whether I should take off too.
22:11:43 <cpressey> 2 minutes of hail is still not pleasant though, I bet.
22:11:58 <ais523> is there any particular reason to be in the office as opposed to at home, or vice versa?
22:12:09 <ais523> if there isn't, you may as well walk home now because there's no reason not to
22:12:50 -!- coppro has changed nick to scshunt.
22:12:54 <cpressey> Well, I may be too late at this point.
22:13:00 <cpressey> Huge drops of rain out the window.
22:13:29 <cpressey> Storms in this part of the country tend to be short and violent, so I may wait it out here.
22:13:45 <cpressey> And if it gets late, brave the few blocks.
22:15:38 <cpressey> On that note -- maintaining production web software is like serving dinner in a moving car. From another moving car in the adjacent lane.
22:18:54 <zzo38> 0= bottles of beer
22:19:03 <zzo38> 2=Take one down and pass it around
22:19:11 <zzo38> 5=#9J3k{HHH,"}#9J4kHHH,"#0@
22:19:17 <zzo38> 6=No more bottles of beer on the wall
22:19:20 <zzo38> 7=5x1@;5x;2@;444&.#AJ4kZ{4!333&.}#H2J3k4kZ{6@;\}5x1@;;#
22:22:19 <oklopol> ais523: idgi, you can basically just flip some switches up, and some down, and then go in the other room to see which lights are on, and the experiment is over?
22:22:29 <oklopol> clearly you can't deduce anything
22:22:44 <ais523> oklopol: you can unscrew the lights from their socket, which breaks the circuit
22:22:53 <ais523> then observe which other lights turn off, because you'd wired them together
22:23:08 <ais523> or you could leave a light on for half an hour then turn it off, it'll be warmer than the others (assuming filament lights)
22:23:58 <oklopol> okay, i'm not good with irl puzzles
22:23:59 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Are you refering to the beer code? It is Q-RESOURCE, which is a program to make resource files for QBASIC programs
22:24:12 <oklopol> i take the simplest mathematical model i can think of and use that
22:24:28 <zzo38> Q-RESOURCE codes are usually not like this, but this is still a valid code
22:26:34 <oklopol> so okay we can do everything with temperature, choose for each switch a number between [0, 1], so that for each numbers r1 and r2, r1 != r2, 1-r1 != r2, then if we have each switch i on ri of the time, we can uniquely identify which bulb is which switch's, except maybe in some pathological cases
22:26:39 -!- ec has changed nick to purr.
22:27:01 <oklopol> used numbers rather weirdly but anyway
22:28:00 <oklopol> but yeah i'm not exactly comfortable with this stuff, to me it seems like if you can unscrew lightbulbs, why couldn't you see into the future, or through walls as well
22:28:27 <oklopol> well maybe not exactly, but i see what i mean
22:29:32 <oklopol> hmm wait that doesn't work if we don't know what function of time temperature is
22:29:45 <oklopol> do we?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
22:30:14 <zzo38> I have one question, how should I fix a movie showtime service program? The one I have is broken, and I want advice how it should be fixed. Would screen-scraping be necessary?
22:32:28 <zzo38> I also have a weather report service, but it doesn't have weather forecast. How can I fix it to have weather forecast?
22:33:28 <ais523> `addquote <oklopol> but yeah i'm not exactly comfortable with this stuff, to me it seems like if you can unscrew lightbulbs, why couldn't you see into the future, or through walls as well
22:33:31 <ais523> you are a true programmer
22:33:31 <HackEgo> 184|<oklopol> but yeah i'm not exactly comfortable with this stuff, to me it seems like if you can unscrew lightbulbs, why couldn't you see into the future, or through walls as well
22:34:16 <oklopol> so err what was your solution
22:34:58 <ais523> gah, I missed the start of the ICFP
22:35:29 <oklopol> it was a programming comp right?
22:36:25 <ais523> I didn't realise this year's was coming up, though
22:36:33 <ais523> and the nature of the task is such that you're unlikely to win if you don't start immediately
22:37:01 <cpressey> http://www.wunderground.com/radar/radblast.asp?ID=LOT
22:39:02 <ais523> "The data for both cars and fuel will be encoded by a stream of trits (ternary bits) and, you guessed it, we won't tell you more about the encoding here, so you just have to make some educated guesses, based on the error messages of the stream parser on our server."
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22:40:20 <ais523> well, it's a competition
22:40:32 <ais523> there hasn't been reverse-engineering involved for several years now, though
22:40:39 <ais523> so I'm a bit disappointed that I missed this year's
22:40:42 <oklopol> i would absolutely love that
22:40:50 <zzo38> Which movie showtime services, weather forecast service, in internet, should I used to write the program that I was trying to write (the old one is broke)?
22:41:04 <oklopol> that language reverse-engineering thing has to be started at some point
22:41:27 <ais523> hmm, maybe oklopol and I should form a team for next year's, as long as the task is interesting
22:41:37 <oklopol> or well i should start it, make tons of challenges a few try and no one solves
22:41:37 <ais523> I skipped last year's because I didn't like the look of the problem
22:42:46 <ais523> I can't remember which one it was specifically, but two of the recent ones were about optimizing trajectories with floating-point arithmetic
22:42:59 <ais523> http://icfpcontest.org
22:44:06 <ais523> I've only entered one year so far, it was the one about writing an AI for a Mars lander
22:44:09 <ais523> which is being chased by martians
22:44:41 <oklopol> failed horribly?????????????????????
22:45:10 <ais523> not horribly, although I didn't reach the finals
22:45:19 <ais523> I was eliminated in something like the fifth or sixth qualification round
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22:56:48 <ais523> oklopol: on the subject of problems that many people have trouble with, what's 1000 + 100 + 1000 + 200 + 1000 + 300 + 1000 + 400?
22:57:05 <ais523> 1000 + 10 + 1000 + 20 + 1000 + 30 + 1000 + 40
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22:57:55 * cpressey gets out his pocket calculator
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22:58:34 <ais523> it seems that many people give the same answer for the two questions
22:58:42 <ais523> although you have to ask them in the other order or they suspect something's up
23:05:04 * ais523 reads about the Von Neumann cellular automaton
23:05:17 <ais523> it's actually pretty interesting, sort of a non-tarpit version of WireWorld or Life
23:06:11 <Phantom_Hoover> There's another variant wherein there's another few states to enable signal crossing.
23:06:59 <cpressey> Is that the one where he describes "self-assembling machines"?
23:07:56 <ais523> cpressey: yes, I think
23:08:13 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I thought about that for a while, and concluded that it doesn't make sense to describe CAs as planar or non-planar
23:08:19 <ais523> the definition just doesn't really fit them
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23:10:30 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: can you /define/ a planar machine?
23:10:45 <ais523> it is not trivial to define at all
23:11:47 <cpressey> It's relative to the model in which you are defining the machine.
23:12:03 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the wire-crossing problem is, IMO, badly defined
23:12:10 <cpressey> If your model is very clear about what is a graph, it's not a big problem.
23:12:39 <ais523> if you're interested, look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Formula; I'm curious as to whether it's TC in two dimensions
23:12:55 <cpressey> I was interested in it for a while
23:13:01 <ais523> alas, being badly defined doesn't prevent people caring about the answer
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23:31:37 <cpressey> If there was a model for expressing models of computation that was purely a graph, it would all be OK. But there's always something more...
23:35:31 <ais523> cpressey: Formula was an attempt to make purely a graph
23:37:47 <ais523> "We gladly inform you that you have been selected as one of the five winners in our email lottery program in which email addresses were picked randomly by a computerized balloting powered by the internet. Your email was among those 5 chosen during this exercise."
23:37:52 <ais523> hmm, reading spam can be fun sometimes
23:38:04 <ais523> I like the sound of a "computerized balloting powered by the internet"
23:38:08 <cpressey> I do not understand the Formula description.
23:38:30 <cpressey> "If the output is an integer + ½ exactly, a bit is read from input, and it is rounded up" -- "it" refers to the output?
23:39:13 <ais523> umm, let me try to remember
23:39:15 <cpressey> The input is just to do tiebreaking for 0.5's ?
23:39:43 <ais523> you interpret the output of the formula as if it had been rounded based on a value from the input
23:40:04 <ais523> the description there, which I presumably wrote ages ago, uses the word "output" for two entirely different things
23:40:21 * cpressey wonders why this was never implemented - it looks pretty simple
23:40:36 <ais523> probably because nobody cared
23:40:38 <cpressey> output -> result in some context, yes
23:40:54 <cpressey> I can kind of see what it's getting at.
23:43:38 <ais523> although I don't think there's anything in Formula that fails if you implement it by calculating decimal expansions lazily
23:43:50 <cpressey> We started using protocol 4.3 of a vendor service recently at work; someone forgot to put quotes around it in the config file, and we got a bunch of lovely errors about "Unknown service 4.29999999999999999".
23:43:56 <ais523> hmm, except maybe the checking for exactly an integer/exactly .5
23:44:03 <ais523> cpressey: go go floating point
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23:44:49 <ais523> reminds me of trying to implement a particular 32-bit PRNG in JavaScript
23:45:11 <ais523> I had to do the calculations 16 bits at a time to fit within the range of integers that can be safely represented as floating-point
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23:45:27 <ais523> that was the same project that I got working in IE6
23:45:47 <ais523> but it seems all the IE6 bugs I hit also exist in IE7 and IE8, also IE5.5, so the 6ness was irrelevant
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23:53:21 <cpressey> Well, the storm has passed, so I'm heading home.
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