< 1277164812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, it is low latency stuff. Anyway wine doesn't use it. It uses alsa directly. I have hardware mixing. SB Live 5.1 < 1277164857 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arva c'frta deîmu xœt'yr • pala'ds fvrofvr ta'ãr < 1277164885 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: OSSv4. Problem solved. < 1277164892 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jack replaces alsa? or goes around it somehow? < 1277164911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, nop. jack uses alsa. < 1277164916 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uses ALSA. ITs for professional audio work < 1277164918 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye. < 1277164922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, but it runs daemon with realtime priority and such < 1277164942 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, sounds fancy < 1277164947 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1277164950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, well I guess so < 1277165042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, anyway, last I tried spotify didn't work well in wine at all. Hm. < 1277165056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other apps, like portal, works fine in there < 1277165069 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Portal? the game? < 1277165072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1277165078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, didn't like it very much though < 1277165101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I mean, sure it is innovative to a degree. But I really dislike the FPS concept < 1277165116 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does GHC implement currying? < 1277165123 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it depend on context? < 1277165135 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1277165141 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :currying always happens < 1277165147 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right, but I meant < 1277165153 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277165155 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way it's compiled, is that always the same? < 1277165156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I much prefer the third person perspective of for example nwn < 1277165159 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I have no clue < 1277165184 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like for a typical function call GHC would avoid explicit currying. < 1277165186 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my setup for flawless spotify sound: disable hardware acceleration in spotify, choose alsa driver and "hardware acceleration: Emulation" in the wine configuration < 1277165213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, eh, hw acceleration in wine? don't remember that setting. What does it do < 1277165223 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a JACK driver too in wine though, I would guess that it either works better or was what caused the problems :) < 1277165238 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, you disable it to make spotify work better, that's about all I know < 1277165245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, it doesn't seem to be compiled here < 1277165249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that jack driver in wine < 1277165263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ah but can that be set per app? < 1277165269 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i am pretty sure ghc doesn't curry if it knows all arguments at the outset < 1277165277 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would only make sense. < 1277165283 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wine configuration or the spotify configuration? < 1277165290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, wine < 1277165313 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, why? < 1277165319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, the applications tab seems to be just about the windows version < 1277165327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, some other app needs full hw accleration iirc < 1277165337 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for audio? < 1277165338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot which one it was < 1277165339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, yes < 1277165349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, would be annoying to switch all the time < 1277165364 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: and it does lots of inlining optimization and stuff, which probably also can remove currying < 1277165387 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1277165401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, does that mean large and fast code rather than small? < 1277165444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, thus resulting in ghc being unsuitable for systems with little memory/space? < 1277165451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like embedded systems < 1277165460 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha. embedded Haskell < 1277165481 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well laziness and lots of garbage collection would do that anyway < 1277165485 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ok, the wine setting didn't seem to have any effect on spotify anyway < 1277165490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ah < 1277165518 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... it seems like you could actually implement laziness via optimization. < 1277165527 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :summary: spotify works fine in wine on linux < 1277165528 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like constructing for loops out of maps and such. < 1277165536 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i don't know that much about ghc really, it probably has several parameters for what to optimize for < 1277165543 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: implement via optimization? < 1277165566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm < 1277165581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, then who is our resident expert on ghc internals < 1277165582 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically optimize lazy code into its eager semantics at compile time... if possible. < 1277165582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1277165590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according coppro there is likely to be one! < 1277165610 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or one of us can retrieve one quickly < 1277165614 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the second part of the theorem < 1277165621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ah < 1277165632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I thought you said "one of us becoming one" < 1277165635 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you could also view them as two separate theorems < 1277165636 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1277165643 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I meant could fetch one and bring em here < 1277165649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, oh < 1277165653 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I think that's what you commonly get, since laziness for iteration is such a common pattern... if you have a top-level loop that prints a list with many lazy values, you may end up with a for-loop that evalutates then prints < 1277165683 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "loop" = mapM print values or something like that < 1277165690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: ghc _does_ construct loops out of maps, and has a "rules" mechanism for optimizing several forms < 1277165695 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-198-155.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1277165696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I don't remember much such fetching? < 1277165698 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1277165702 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are you sweeties < 1277165705 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as it can see far enough down the line of turtles < 1277165706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, or any at all to tell the truth < 1277165730 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah, it doesn't go on much. It was more academic to also include the fact that many of us also mingle in relatively academic circles < 1277165740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, well yes < 1277165740 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, I could retrieve an expert in cellular metabolism quite quickly < 1277165750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, and get him to join here!? < 1277165754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I'd be surprised < 1277165760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh well i know _some_ random ghc internals, just not detailed enough for space vs. time optimization < 1277165768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah < 1277165783 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: he hangs around on EFNet and is a good friend, I'm sure I could get him to at least join and then part ;) < 1277165784 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you want to ask an expert in cellular metabolism about ghc internals? < 1277165789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, hah < 1277165794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, no need to try < 1277165813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw did I ever mention that silly warning on the warning page of my electrical piano? < 1277165828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know the page with stuff like "do not put something with water in on top" and such < 1277165839 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1277165856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I ever tell about the extremely silly warning there? < 1277165866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(much sillier than that about the water) < 1277165874 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not dance on top of piano? < 1277165878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, almost < 1277165887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "do not stand or jump on the piano" < 1277165888 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not eat piano? < 1277165890 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: btw, if you're worried about code size in haskell you should be much more worried about the RTS and statically linking gmp and a bunch of other stuff into your program < 1277165926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston, strangely enough that one was missing. Should contact them and point out that flaw < 1277165949 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, dynamic linking gets rid of some of that, but if you're talking about embedding a single haskell program you'll still have to install that stuff :) < 1277165956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, indeed. Can you get a program smaller than 40 kB? < 1277165968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait gmp? < 1277165971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why gmp? < 1277165976 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for bignums < 1277165982 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell has them built in you know < 1277165983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, oh I confused gmp and mpfr < 1277165998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mpfr is bigfloats isn't it? < 1277166014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, the use case I'm thinking about is 16-bit and has no FPU < 1277166014 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, or gmp with an exponent per bignum < 1277166024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, and after OS is loaded it has 56 kB free ram < 1277166037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly not fit for that < 1277166042 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehm, hmm, you'd have to *port* ghc to that first... *good* *luck* < 1277166046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, :P < 1277166053 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM, obv < 1277166063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I would have to port llvm to it < 1277166063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think they've added an alternative option to gmp recently, for license reasons i think < 1277166070 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe ehc could do something though, iirc it compiles to C and has a very small RTS < 1277166085 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Adding a new target to LLVM is pretty cool, actually < 1277166104 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it has an MMIX target < 1277166107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, it involves C++ < 1277166113 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it's called right now < 1277166114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I'm not amused by C++ < 1277166127 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: LLVM is good C++, and also TableGen < 1277166129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ehc? < 1277166139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, tablegen? < 1277166162 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a project-specific code generator that takes a lot of the pain out of things < 1277166180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I see. This platform is highly RISC and I need to output COFF as the binary format < 1277166186 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another way to use haskell for embedded development is to use the type system to produce a type-rich DSL that just generates code for the device < 1277166186 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally designed and still primarily used for handling instruction tables for various architectures < 1277166196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: i thought i read jhc is the one with small program size, if that's still developed < 1277166200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I think that is about 50 < 1277166204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, instructions I mean < 1277166214 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, I might be confusing them < 1277166216 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'll see if I can find some examples < 1277166227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, h8300 btw < 1277166234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, if you feel up to the task ;P < 1277166242 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277166250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: well i couldn't say ehc isn't also < 1277166250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, last gcc version to support it for coff at least was gcc 3.x < 1277166251 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: indeed, JHC is the one I'm thinking of < 1277166256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, jhc? < 1277166267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277166278 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM supports COFF for some targets, but I'm not sure how easily portable that is < 1277166285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ah... < 1277166297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: whole program optimizing compiler for haskell, iirc < 1277166301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, also I need custom linker script. But I guess I will use the same outdated binutils < 1277166307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, doesn't ghc do that? < 1277166308 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://repetae.net/computer/jhc/ < 1277166312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I'm extremely surprised < 1277166324 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no ghc is mainly separate compilation < 1277166331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wtf < 1277166342 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghc doesn't do whole-program optimizations, just cross-module optimizations < 1277166365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, huh, so make the set of modules you optimise between be the whole program? < 1277166391 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghc mainly does stuff like output bytecode (or something similar) for selected functions so they can be inlined in other modules < 1277166398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277166410 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other functions will be output as machine code in the .o and can't be inlined < 1277166683 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277166683 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1277166687 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1277166687 0 :clog!nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1277166872 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1277167266 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-9-33.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277167487 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1277167631 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever been an attempt to implement monads in C? < 1277167640 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1277167698 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Introducing Monads in C. Better known as Fun With Function Pointers." < 1277167912 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are arrows kind of like flowchart-monads? < 1277167928 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION whoosh
< 1277167964 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1277167972 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so < 1277167983 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you could use them with a DSP library. < 1277168262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1277168956 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277169196 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-9-33.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277169451 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Behold < 1277169462 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1277170302 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277170361 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-9-33.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277171098 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Funny you mention it. < 1277171103 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was just thinking about ZEE yesterday. < 1277171128 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm still stuck at the same point: I can't make progress until I have a story, I can't write a story myself because I'm not that kind of creative, and I can't find anybody to write a story for me. < 1277171255 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Did you see my story "Harper's Challenge"? It is hardly done much, and it isn't entirely my own either, it is group of people named by a pseudonym. And it has appendix. < 1277171326 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: The problem with ZEE in the story department is that the nature of the game (and more to the point, the achievability of getting the requisite photos) has an enormous impact on the possible stories. < 1277171336 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep getting great but unimplementable story ideas. < 1277171344 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does ZEE means? < 1277171428 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** INTRODUCTION *** This introduction intentionally left blank. < 1277171616 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zoom-Enhance-Extrapolate. It's an image-based maze game parodying those silly scenes from spy movies where they take an arbitrary image, zoom in on it, "enhance" it, and "extrapolate" random garbage out of it. < 1277171626 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, it's supposed to be. < 1277171636 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now it's most of an image-based maze game engine with no story :P < 1277171997 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it doesn't need to have a story < 1277172538 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1277172773 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277172782 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277173048 0 :yiyus!~124271242@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1277173683 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1277173697 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h50.32.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277173982 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1277174698 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h22.58.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277174987 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1277175378 0 :ski!~slj@c-0712e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1277176143 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1277176144 0 :Behold!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1277176408 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1277176705 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h245.61.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277176797 0 :boily!~boily@dsl-173-206-66-215.tor.primus.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1277177467 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1277177658 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1277178400 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i've been thinking about the game too, recently, but, as you might guess depending on how well you know me, so probably not, i feel like you shouldn't use photos but render images on the fly. that would be more authentic, in any case i also have some story ideas, i would probably work on them more if this had been my idea < 1277178403 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a great idea. < 1277178442 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I keep getting great but unimplementable story ideas." <<< okay i haven't gotten far enough to think about implementability :P < 1277178450 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rendering is actually /more/ unachievable than using photos. Well, depending on your required fidelity I suppose ... rendering sufficiently photorealistic images (even of scenes excluding humans) is ... complicated. < 1277178589 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just iterate over pixels and see what's there, i don't really care how good it looks, you could just zoom if you can't make out what's happening. i don't really care about the parody aspect, so this puritanian version without actual images would probably not have humans in the story. < 1277178618 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i have ideas with humans too tho :D) < 1277178640 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not having humans is a plus. < 1277178647 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For various reasons. < 1277178657 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both storywise and achievability-wise. < 1277178665 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well implementabilitywise at least, and i guess also the two other reasons < 1277178669 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1277178669 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one < 1277178670 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The story would have humans obviously, but the images are more about finding clues then catching people in the act) < 1277178686 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it could end with you catching ppl in the act maybe < 1277178750 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone holding a bloody knife with a dick in his hand < 1277178783 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277179006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1277179018 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we can leave the blood out i guess < 1277179026 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't like violence < 1277179088 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe some of the clues would involve you seeing some kind of leaf and then an expert tells you the tree only grows in a 10m x 10m area in X-town < 1277179106 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-9-33.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277179169 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in one of those shows there was a leaf somewhere and they suddenly know exactly where in us some meeting takes place or something < 1277179203 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"we're in luck there are only two of this tree in the whole universe" < 1277179238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe a law and order ending where the killer goes free < 1277179794 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reappears.
< 1277179801 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That comes down more to "achievability" :P < 1277179821 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting a picture of somebody with a bloody knive in one hand and a severed penis in the other is tricky. < 1277179842 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And rightfully so! < 1277180261 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: plot twist: the expert is actually an alien. < 1277180268 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is fooling you. < 1277180274 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for... uh... profit. < 1277180296 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I'm very tired. < 1277180487 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ < 1277180650 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KERNELOOPS < 1277180718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION mutters
< 1277180720 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Kernel Orangutan-oriented Programming Style) < 1277180737 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dental fillings suck. < 1277180752 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evaluates to true. < 1277180763 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@174-16-203-167.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277180766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had 2 today and am getting 2 tomorrow. < 1277180771 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1277180779 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I want FROOTLOOPS < 1277180785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the two fillings I got today are currently sensitive as hell. < 1277180808 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Wait... what is a Frootl? < 1277180828 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: lots of sugar < 1277180859 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: oh umm i was thinking he killed someone else, and then masturbated because killing people is, as we all know, pretty hot < 1277180866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so shouldn't be that hard < 1277180943 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fashionably Redundant Object Optimization Typography, for Learning Orangutan-Oriented PRogramming Style < 1277180970 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... Topology sounds more abstrackt < 1277180973 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl. < 1277181008 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A fashionably redundant object optimization topology, you say? Oh, well now I'm intruged. < 1277181021 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But only if there is a paper about it. Must have an abstract. < 1277181040 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topology! < 1277181041 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I will lose interest and become distracted. < 1277181246 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Towards an understanding of orangutan-oriented programming through reprogrammable hydro-banana-morphisms" < 1277181260 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :morphisms! < 1277181313 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meed only add a few "keywords" to any phrase and it becomes academic, regardless of how ridiculous the other words sound. < 1277181356 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I accept your challenge. < 1277181363 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your words are: "Getting a picture of somebody with a bloody knive in one hand and a severed penis in the other is tricky." < 1277181368 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Add words to that to make it academic. < 1277181386 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277181386 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..hahaha < 1277181415 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... < 1277181427 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-pretends to dissect when really he is just tired as shit- < 1277181619 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting a picture of somebody with a blood knive in one hand and a severed penis in the other is tricky, but can be readily reduced to a problem of optical complexity theory classes. < 1277181671 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-9-33.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277181735 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, more generally, orangutan-oriented programming with optical complexity /heuristics/. < 1277181766 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1277181774 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: how's that? < 1277181825 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl X-D < 1277181896 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, sometimes a banana-morphism is more elegant < 1277182286 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277182324 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1277183068 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277184099 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woo! Finished the Tower of Hanoi code < 1277184469 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1277184491 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, almost finished < 1277184495 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still a bit crashy < 1277184519 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not crashy, but once anyone's won, clicking the third column is enough for anyone to win < 1277184780 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION watches someone fail to solve Tower of Hanoi
< 1277184790 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He'd be on the right track if the goal was the second column and not the third :/ < 1277184796 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-9-33.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277184963 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate that < 1277187649 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277189130 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277189463 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, I wish the flashblock guy wasn't such a jerk < 1277189491 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277189542 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277190161 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1277193026 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277193599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1277193600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1277193718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277194055 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn you tvtropes < 1277194085 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also damn you inexplicable compulsion to find the trope that best describes my dating situation < 1277194467 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, there we go < 1277194813 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null < 1277197426 0 :josh_!~josh@c211-30-239-239.randw3.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1277197735 0 :josh_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277199856 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-0-86.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277202648 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1277204614 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277206213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh the course literature for the autumn includes one by Bjarne Stroustrup. Yeargh. < 1277206235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1277206252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is he that bad at writing books? < 1277206269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no idea. But surely you know what the topic will be of it < 1277206285 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not necessarily < 1277206289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, C++ < 1277206296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is after all the inventor of C++... < 1277206308 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that doesn't mean everything he does in his entire life is C++-related < 1277206325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well there is a high probability of it being C++ < 1277206338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean you don't actually know what the book is about? < 1277206370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, of course I do. But I meant in general, it should not have been a unlikely guess that it was about C++ for you < 1277206379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the title is "The C++ Programming Language, Special Edition" < 1277206382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1277206401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue what the special edition bit is about < 1277206401 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1277206406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oklopol < 1277206406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1277206408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ^ < 1277206420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g'day < 1277206433 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: All his books -- http://www2.research.att.com/~bs/books.html [at his homepage] -- have the word "C++" in them. < 1277206440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, since when did you become holly-wood-Australian? < 1277206453 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm, an unfortunately narrow choice of topic < 1277206469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose if you're famous for something, it's an easy topic to convince people to publish your books on < 1277206479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the same is true with the word s/ly narrow// applied < 1277206493 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: since i started making my greetings silly < 1277206501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and when did you start with that? < 1277206513 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: why are you hanging around in #esoteric if you can't even handle C++? < 1277206514 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a few years ago? < 1277206528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and an 864 page book about computer networking... < 1277206538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think how anyone could write that much on computer networking < 1277206560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand I long ago concluded that in English, the writers of course literature are paid per word < 1277206560 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: He has a wide(r) selection of topics in the full list of publications (interviews, conference papers, journal articles). It's just books that are rather focused. < 1277206578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably not the case for Swedish course literature < 1277206586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tends to be much more concise < 1277206588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to the point < 1277206594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than English course literature < 1277206598 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would think computer networking is an easy topic to write a lot about. There's a lot of it going on, and none of it is especially simple. < 1277206613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1277206652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how to fit it in my backpack though < 1277206665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I can't imagine it would fit with the other large books < 1277206707 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The special edition of the C++ book is supposedly 1029 pages. < 1277206723 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a lot of tree. < 1277206731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another title: "Data Structures and Algorithm Analysis in C++". That is like taking some of the most interesting topics of compsci (data structures and algorithm analysis) and dipping it in the tar of C++ < 1277206735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1277206797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yet that one was about half the price of the thick networking book < 1277206799 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your C++ antipathy is borderline pathological. It's not like you'd (probably) encounter the most warped corners of the language in a data structures book. < 1277206811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1277206843 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd prefer MIX assembly more, right?-) < 1277206858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and huh "The essence of artificial Intelligence". I guess they want to get us interested in their master program (AI stuff). I'm going to move to another university for the master program personally < 1277206869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah :) < 1277206895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or SCIP < 1277206910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it talks about data structures unless I misremember completely < 1277206930 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not *that* much, though. < 1277206939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "Effective C++" doesn't sound like a fun title either < 1277206956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scary Concepts in Programming < 1277206992 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLRS ("Introduction to Algorithms") is one data structures/algorithms book that's also reasonably reasonable; the only language it contains is their own pseudo. And the book's website has the LaTeX package to typeset it, which is nice for homework exercises. < 1277207012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1277207049 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't go very deep into algorithm analysis or more esoteric data structures, but, well, it does say "introduction" right there in the title. < 1277207107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I much more look forward to the Swedish "Datatyper och algoritmer" which is bound to be a lot more concise. (see above wrt getting paid per word) < 1277207189 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if paid-per-word is the reason, or just difference in cultures. Certainly the same distinction is there with English vs. Finnish textbooks. Especially the mathematics one. < 1277207222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/one/ones/ < 1277207246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I much prefer the conciser variant, it means I save hours. < 1277207247 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not sure if that's so "especial", it's just that there's very little material in Finnish on our courses. < 1277207266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there have been about 50% so far, less during the year to come < 1277207342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a bit larger audience there, I guess it helps. I don't think I really have any computer-science related Finnish course literature on the bookshelf. There's some discrete maths and probabilistics, and then some electronics. < 1277207436 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and a single, very narrow "C-ohjelmointikieli" (lit. "the C programming language"), though that's actually my wife's. (I haven't bothered to buy copies of all books.) < 1277207442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I have discrete maths, C, digital logic, electronics and database in Swedish. Yeah, that is what compsci turned into here :( < 1277207449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and from what I heard, in many other places < 1277207467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, your wife does CS too? I didn't remember that < 1277207498 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, though with a rather different focus (usability and communications and things like that) than I. < 1277207509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sounds like it might involve GUI < 1277207519 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It often does. < 1277207525 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_her_ creations are actually usable < 1277207532 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also often involves people, which is my main reason to avoid it. :p < 1277207535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ducks
< 1277207538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hey fungot is fully usable < 1277207539 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i just wrote? < 1277207545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perfect! < 1277207576 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's not as funny because it's so true. < 1277207591 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, who can ask for more than fungot; there's even a help command. < 1277207591 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: cmeme is a log bot afaik < 1277207600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1277207604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is cmeme? < 1277207609 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A log bot, AFAIK. < 1277207612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277207616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so likely a direct quote < 1277207622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or nearly anyway < 1277207634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, which channel is it in? < 1277207643 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[2005-10-11 13:57:19] < Gs30ng> cmeme is a log bot afaik < 1277207664 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to be here. < 1277207666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277207698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: cmeme has been gone for years < 1277207710 0 :atrapado!~ro@193.144.79.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277207734 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a bit of a shame because its logs were much better formatted < 1277207747 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: cmeme last quit from #esoteric in 2008-11-06, that's not so many years. < 1277207750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that also meant they loaded slow < 1277207767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well it's about half they years i've been here < 1277207770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the < 1277207816 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's still references in the tunes.org log-directory HEADER.html: < 1277207819 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a so-called "pretty" view of these logs, go to http://tunes.org/~coreyr/. < 1277207820 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For even "prettier" (css'd, searchable, customizable, etc) logs, go to http://meme.b9.com. < 1277207835 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But meme.b9.com -> ircbrowse.com, which does not exist. < 1277207880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the logs are perfectly readable < 1277207903 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not pretty. < 1277207914 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The CSS thing was indeed prettier. < 1277207915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wget | sed ? < 1277207931 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could twiddle with what it looks like and all. < 1277207944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you could make it align nicely easily enough < 1277207946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is pure text < 1277207954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :align as in how xchat does it < 1277207996 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and you could do any sort of formatting you want locally, but it was already prettified with several different styles out-of-the-box there. < 1277208009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, who needs out of the box? < 1277208023 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People who have other stuff to fiddle with, I guess. < 1277208036 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's a LaTeX package for proper typesetting of irclogs yet. < 1277208043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah people who cannot whip up a quick prettifier in brainfuck don't _deserve_ to read the logs < 1277208066 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah, those people can stay in the box. < 1277208153 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My #esoteric log for 2003-2008 is 46 megabytes of text; that'd make a pretty nice set of books if bound into hardcover with attractive cover art, good typography and all that fluff. < 1277208167 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I could quit my day job, and be a door-to-door ency^H^H^H^H#esoteric salesman. < 1277208222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, shell, not bf ;P < 1277208232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slogan: it's better than fake persian rugs < 1277208241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: YOU ARE NOT WORTHY < 1277208254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ;P < 1277208722 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1277209592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277211011 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277211212 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1277214803 0 :bluebooblue!bluebooblu@190.39.235.183 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277214817 0 :bluebooblue!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning 8) < 1277214964 0 :bluebooblue!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1277215686 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i've read that and i liked it even though i hate c++. but then again i like most books so i guess this is not very helpful... :D < 1277215878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :books about algorithms that use an object oriented language are insane, they only have time to cover a few trivial ones because every tiny snippet takes pages and pages of code < 1277215916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i'm not saying oo is inherently too verbose, i'm just grouping java and c++) < 1277217149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I fully agree with you when it comes to C++ and java < 1277218010 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277218087 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277218836 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i once read this 300 or 500 or something page book about algorithms in one afternoon, because it was always 5 pages of explanation of something completely trivial, followed by the same amount of code, the algorithms could've been explained much more concisely, because it was only the level of dijkstra and quicksort, but i guess they wanted to keep the text-to-code ratio sensible and added fluff (i guess i skipped many of the proofs t < 1277218873 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(...and all the code) < 1277218910 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"of the proofs t" < 1277218919 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1277218929 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*oo) < 1277218930 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1277218979 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You really should configure your client properly / install a plugin so that you don't have to worry about splitting long lines manually < 1277219015 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should get nnscript or start using another client, mirc is horrible alone < 1277219042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's SOOOOOO much work < 1277219043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1277219046 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the OLD oklopol < 1277219050 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gets nnscript
< 1277219140 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm okay i would have to get an older mirc < 1277219155 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe another client, but, well, i'm not THAT NEW an oklopol. < 1277219161 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe tomorrow < 1277219175 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows should never steal focus < 1277219175 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever. < 1277219189 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree < 1277219190 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should blink at me from the bottom of the screen < 1277219199 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find that really annoying too < 1277219219 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if it was once, but i mean if they just start blinking away like crazy < 1277219233 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I can change that in Gnome/Xorg/whatever < 1277219286 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on your WM (so not Xorg) < 1277219313 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... no blink, but simply notify. The way Ubuntu does it is very subtle. Nowhere near as obnoxious as the blinking orange in XP. < 1277219331 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno about other distros. Haven't used them. < 1277219332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's the OLD oklopol < 1277219334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1277219335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you changed? < 1277219352 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe! < 1277219355 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not. < 1277219371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well if it was once, but i mean if they just start blinking away like crazy <-- on my system they tend to blink twice and then stay in the highlighted variant < 1277219379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I find that works very well < 1277219391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I manually configured it < 1277219414 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't like highlight either, probably, actually i probably couldn't stand it just to know something's happened in a window... i should be kept ignorant until i choose to look, unless it's really important < 1277219448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well it is just a shade of light blue at 20% opacity on top or such < 1277219453 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, most reasons for focus-stealing are important. new IMs, update manager finishes, new window opens, etc < 1277219454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite subtle < 1277219464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IM clients steal focus? < 1277219466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how nasty < 1277219469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I would hate that < 1277219487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pacman or apt-get never steals focus ;P < 1277219499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pacman is the package manager on arch linux) < 1277219515 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes. That is why I don't like focus-stealing and would prefer to switch all of it to highlighted notifications because they were nowhere near as intrusive to what I'm doing. < 1277219530 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1277219530 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason I came to this conclisuion was actually update manager though < 1277219534 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it stole focus when it finished. < 1277219570 0 :Geekthras!~geekthras@adsl-99-39-2-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277219667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1277219703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, actually there is one thing that should steal focus. screen lockers < 1277219704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1277219885 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psh < 1277219887 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1277219919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl, going to do upgrades that need X not running < 1277219920 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then I'm going to reprogram GNOME to have "steal-focus" and "no-really-actually-steal-focus" < 1277219932 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then reprogram my screen locker to use the second onew. < 1277219933 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1277220431 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do screen lockers actually use the same mechanism to steal focus? They seem... distinctly different. < 1277221031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, no idea < 1277222572 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hei, mitä kuuluu? < 1277222601 0 :relet!~thomas@c905DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1277222707 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277222745 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if the R^2 -> R bijection is computable.
< 1277222792 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R is larger than the set of computable numbers. Therefore I suspect that it is not. < 1277222833 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, then is it possible to biject two computable reals onto one? < 1277222859 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, can't you apply the diagonal argument to computable reals?) < 1277223072 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence implying that they are also uncountably infinite? < 1277225022 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277225046 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-0-86.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277225292 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The computable reals are definitely countably infinite. < 1277225297 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277225361 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The R^2 -> R bijection is computable if a real number x is represented by the predicate P(r) = r < x over rational numbers r. I think. < 1277225383 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277225678 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, how are they countable? < 1277225726 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are countably many Turing machines. Therefore, there are countably many computable real numbers. < 1277225755 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The diagonal argument doesn't work because it's impossible to determine whether a Turing machine actually outputs a real number or not. < 1277225920 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: reals are non-countable < 1277225933 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rationals are countable but not reals < 1277225949 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But countable reals are a subset of reals < 1277225954 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, computable < 1277226014 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I never said they were. < 1277226050 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry. computable reals. ok < 1277226234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm uncomputable reals. Chaitin's Constant and such right? Are they all like that? I mean, that we can't even have any clue about the value? < 1277226277 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of an uncomputable real. I will gladly give you its entire decimal expansion. < 1277226285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, :P < 1277226305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, is pi computable? I presume so < 1277226308 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1277226569 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, imagine some radioactive material. < 1277226633 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Tth bit of a real is 1 if there is a decay and 0 otherwise. < 1277226704 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I can imagine there being an uncomputable real number that we can approximate really well, except that we never actually know how close the approximation is. < 1277226799 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps you're computing it, and the computation has lingered at 4.177187787026364558800429098840 for years, and then it suddenly increases to 6. < 1277226819 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can go, "Aw, we thought we were so close." < 1277226895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, that's what Chaitin's constant is like, I think. You can run a computation that outputs an increasing sequence of numbers that approaches it. You'll never actually get there, and you'll never know how far it still has to increase. < 1277227062 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1277227560 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so much more convenient that way. < 1277227719 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I think you can determine digits of it, in exponential time < 1277227761 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you can't. < 1277227770 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be computing it. < 1277227779 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you assuming that a Turing machine always halts in exponential time? < 1277227892 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Chaitin's "constant" is per TM. So some Chaitin's constants can be computed. < 1277227907 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed/ < 1277227911 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s///./ < 1277227929 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe "coefficient" would be a less misleading term. < 1277227949 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe not. < 1277227977 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, CLR is a fine book. < 1277227995 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1277228009 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I held two jobs developing C++, and I don't think I wrote a significant amount of C++ code at either of them. "Effective C++" helped me cope. < 1277228029 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Actually 3. But one had some Perl and Python in it too. < 1277228443 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is ok, but only if you consciously forget that it is C++. < 1277229175 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, developing does not seem like an enjoyable profession. < 1277229180 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talk me out of that as well. < 1277229207 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Ha ha ha ha ha. It depends *a lot* on the place. < 1277229239 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never, EVER work at a company that makes their developers wear pagers. EVER. < 1277229265 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you enjoy it. < 1277229302 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you enjoy stress-related illness, sure. Go for it. Have an ulcer for me! < 1277229370 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'd ever be able to be a developer. < 1277229377 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate GUI programming with a vengeance. < 1277229394 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate UI programming in general, come to think of it. < 1277229407 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was hard to write, it should be hard to use! < 1277229494 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROFL at bug in Tower of Hanoi code < 1277229498 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dip switches and panel LEDs all the way. < 1277229520 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It caused the puzzle to start with the disks the wrong way around < 1277229529 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This principle should not apply to anyone writing software that I want to use) < 1277229541 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are masochists out there. < 1277229603 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION loves orbital paths when G is proportional to the inverse of distance.
< 1277229667 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DIP switches and panel LEDs, yet still have a window manager that steal focus. Perhaps by flashing something distractingly nearby. < 1277229761 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/P623C.jpg < 1277229853 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What virtual world is this? < 1277229859 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Active Worlds < 1277229866 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277229936 0 :sebbu2!sebbu@cl-170.mrs-01.fr.sixxs.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277230040 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277230040 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1277230111 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason my volume control disappeared upon upgrade to luci. < 1277230111 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d < 1277230137 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, you're lucky weirder stuff didn't happen. < 1277230149 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try ensuring Pulseaudio is running. < 1277230365 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ps ax | grep pulse < 1277230547 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doctor, I can't find this patient's pulse! < 1277230632 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you tried grep (™) < 1277230657 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1277230691 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SELECT MEASUREMENT FROM VITALS WHERE MEDICAL_TERM='PULSE'; < 1277230801 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277230850 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programmable dip switches, so that you can toggle them with software. And they should make a loud click whenever they toggle status. < 1277231411 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dip switch? < 1277231462 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Abandonando < 1277232058 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a switch specially made for people who are dips. < 1277232175 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277232214 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.3/20100401080539] < 1277232225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no you can't apply the diagonal argument, who says the diagonal is wait are you talking about this i'll read < 1277232245 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? < 1277232341 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can approximate many uncomputable real numbers well, take any uncomputable number and add a million random digits in the beginning < 1277232419 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why must all of my software be buggy. < 1277232449 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i read logs and just answer directly no matter how far up i am < 1277232457 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without context < 1277232458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deal with it < 1277232470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but umm computable reals being uncountable < 1277232475 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the cxt < 1277232506 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... every computable real is generated by some TM. And the TMs are countable. < 1277232510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't apply the diagonal argument, you take the surjection from naturals, and you find no contradiction < 1277232513 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, take a list of the computable reals. < 1277232519 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then apply the diagonal argument to it < 1277232533 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is also computable, for obvious reasons. < 1277232535 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED. < 1277232546 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, but that doesn't mean you can't ask WHY the converse can't be proven in some way < 1277232553 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's computable for obvious reasons? < 1277232561 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find them very much non-obvious < 1277232577 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Indeed. < 1277232579 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each digit is computable. < 1277232584 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the result is computable. < 1277232602 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: so there cannot be a COMPUTABLE surjection. < 1277232619 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm finding something here very non-obvious. < 1277232620 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the surjection is not computable, there should be no contradiction < 1277232642 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i haven't thought about this, but i believe that's the answer < 1277232668 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously if you had a computable surjection, you could just iterate through nats and compute the finite amount of digits you need at that point < 1277232699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would always take finite time because we're enumerating computable reals, which can be computed to any precision in finite time < 1277232770 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there's a concept of computable countability out there. < 1277232786 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the computable reals are computably uncountable < 1277232814 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I totally think there's something wrong here, but I can't put my finger on it. < 1277232845 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think there is, if you have a more specific feeling where the wrong is, i can try to elaborate < 1277232899 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is there is no contradiction, you can't compute the real on the diagonal, because we did not at any point assume that we have an algorithm that lists computable reals, we just assumed a mathematical surjection from nats to creals < 1277232911 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say you have a TM-enumerating TM, call it K. Interpret the tape ("in the limit") of each of the enumerated TMs as a real. Then K generates all computable reals. Therefore the set of computable reals must be countable. < 1277232917 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you mean maybe we could just enumerate tm's? < 1277232924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah let's see what the problem is there < 1277232935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah trivial < 1277232958 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't know whether a tm outputs a computable real or whether it's non-halting, and only gives finite output < 1277232968 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'll read what you said maybe < 1277233002 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a TM can still generate a computable real, and never halt. At least, that's how I interpreted Turing's paper. < 1277233003 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1277233014 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you need a tm enumerating the tm's if you're proving they are countable? < 1277233042 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need it, except to graphically illustrate that it can all be done with one TM. < 1277233079 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay, sure, but anyway it's trivial they are countable, the question was why diagonalization doesn't work < 1277233113 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in summary, I was right. :P < 1277233154 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's as good a summary as any < 1277233155 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Granted. Actually that was why I introduced K. Enumerating another TM is kind of like reading off the diagonal and adding another row. < 1277233184 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I say "kind of" because that's the part where I can't put my finger on it. < 1277233220 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe "computably diagnolizable"? < 1277233270 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hang on. I can't Fennicize my name as "Tänneri Svetti", because "svetti" isn't a type of place! < 1277233291 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to make it one, I guess. < 1277233312 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I still thinking about this? :| < 1277233313 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there plans for a Gnome 3? < 1277233314 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. I do like the idea of calling the "computably enumerable reals", though, and abbreviating it to "cereals" < 1277233318 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i don't think it's in any sense like reading off the diagonal and adding another row tbh :P < 1277233335 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: fennicize your name? < 1277233342 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1277233367 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Now develop a concept a "dry" to "soggy" gradient for cereals. < 1277233373 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*of < 1277233389 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: what's your actual name i forget < 1277233393 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tanner Swett. < 1277233394 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1277233405 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tanner is a finnish word < 1277233432 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the few that ends with r < 1277233442 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*end < 1277233717 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you made my Internet drop out. < 1277233742 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, and it means "field" or "ground", so it works as a surname! < 1277233772 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't surprise me if it was used as a surname, although i haven't seen it < 1277233785 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's that Finnish name database? < 1277233797 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would have to google < 1277233804 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :väestörekisterikeskus < 1277233811 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1277233833 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or väestörekisteri or something or maybe something completely elseous. < 1277233859 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Found it. http://verkkopalvelut.vrk.fi/Nimipalvelu/default.asp?L=3 < 1277233871 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :764 < 1277233873 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in use atm < 1277233889 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't new surnames have to be unique? < 1277233892 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably i have seen it < 1277233907 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not know < 1277233920 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that's the case, I can't change my surname to Tanner. < 1277233940 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Svetti is open, as is Svettila. < 1277233966 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukunimilaki has the rules < 1277233968 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But nothing can beat the sheer awesomeness of the word "Vorigali Turrila". < 1277233971 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can translate i suppose < 1277234003 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be helpful. < 1277234073 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't be "cockville", it can't be "asdfgljhaoig", it can't be "everyman" (very common, i don't know what english surnames are most common), it can't be "john", it can't be "microsoft" < 1277234076 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1277234108 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says it can't be the surname of an existing family, maybe that means if they have like a protected surname, you can do that < 1277234125 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because otherwise it's just a stronger everyman < 1277234155 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i do not know whether tanner qualifies < 1277234178 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs.
< 1277234184 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also sweat is hiki in finnish, you could use that a first name < 1277234223 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll change that to Hikki. :P < 1277234256 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be a nickname < 1277234265 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my father's name is heikki < 1277234277 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as is fizzie's) < 1277234500 0 :calamari!~killerkal@m495336d0.tmodns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277234510 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1277234525 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hei! < 1277234527 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What ho, calamari! < 1277234529 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mitä kuuluu? < 1277234589 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at jury duty, waiting.. reading a book about writing linux device drivers.. so yeah bored lol < 1277234629 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1277234657 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We shall all learn or teach Finnish while we wait. < 1277234748 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tässä sinulle helppo lause < 1277234842 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suomenopiskelumateriaaliksi sinulle < 1277234846 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, they give you internet access in jury duty? Well, I guess if it's not sequestered and all... < 1277234873 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here onto you easy a sentence? < 1277234900 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for you < 1277234905 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well im ircing from my phone, but in the courtroom you have to turn phones off < 1277234920 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, got it. < 1277234925 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, for you, an easy sentence. < 1277234929 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1277234973 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was almost picked for jury duty once, but they rejected me
< 1277235057 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suomenopiskelumateriaaliksi is "as Finnish study material"? < 1277235066 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I've been in the courtroom once but was ultimately rejected < 1277235109 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erinomainen. < 1277235134 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get called down every year, so I suppose eventually I may be selected < 1277235173 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every year? < 1277235179 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders about the crime rate in Arizona
< 1277235206 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277235218 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pending / New: 17. Active - Due: 42. < 1277235220 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: erinomainen? < 1277235228 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, maybe he got picked :) < 1277235230 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erinomainen! < 1277235241 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean "erinomaista!"? < 1277235248 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1277235257 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saying "erinomainen" is like saying "a great!" < 1277235269 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you use the partitive when yelling adjectives? < 1277235276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1277235277 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1277235334 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mielenkiintoista! < 1277235369 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed! < 1277235387 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "oikein!" < 1277235389 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Liian pitkää! :P < 1277235395 0 :calamari!~killerkal@m495336d0.tmodns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277235399 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not "oikeaa") < 1277235406 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(correct that is) < 1277235412 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re's < 1277235503 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also "liian pitkää" can't really be used, yet you could definitely say "liian rumaa" < 1277235523 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not pitkää? < 1277235525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"liian pitkä" or preferably a whole sentence < 1277235544 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1277235547 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs.
< 1277235569 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hankalaa! < 1277235601 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know why, but short=lyhyt and pitkä=long both sound weird used like that < 1277235628 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's like the English "fastly". It's never used, but there is no reason for this. < 1277235634 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well actually i think i do know, but err < 1277235647 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I guess "fast" can be used as an adverb. < 1277235652 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"He ran fast." Yep. < 1277235743 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "reason" is things can't be long in general, there has to be some object that's long < 1277235751 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but it can be an abstract object) < 1277235754 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"fast" and "big" are extremely strange words in English, given how common they are. < 1277235765 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's weird about big? < 1277235768 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, "bigly" doesn't work, either. < 1277235769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1277235777 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I can't imagine why you would use that word. :P < 1277235779 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The show was a large hit!" No one says this. < 1277235779 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, i never even realized < 1277235800 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that saying is largely unused < 1277235824 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: good point < 1277235857 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in finnish you can say you're "bigly happy" < 1277235880 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd probably be better off saying "immensely happy" in English. < 1277235881 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that it's all that idiomatic in that specific context) < 1277235890 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you say "The dog is named Swarming"? < 1277235900 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That word was chosen to be as un-Finnish as possible. :P) < 1277235906 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1277235908 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :koiran nimi on ...swarming < 1277235937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(was the point that i wouldn't translate? :P) < 1277235943 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nimeä! < 1277235945 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it was. < 1277236035 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parveilu < 1277236041 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Laskea irti. < 1277236102 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1277236105 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: AndroidIRC 1.0 < 1277236150 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, Android. And here I am with a 5-year-old Motorola Tracfone. < 1277236198 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah parveilla, i assumed there isn't a translation :-D < 1277236218 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1277236224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe Deewiant should teach you < 1277236235 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan and i have to talk about computable uncountability now < 1277236244 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone who knows any Finnish knows more Finnish than me! < 1277236244 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O KAY < 1277236249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait computable? < 1277236256 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for the mathematical impossibility of that. < 1277236262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the computable reals are computably uncountable < 1277236273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i sincerely doubt that < 1277236291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well that's just diagonalization < 1277236296 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You may wish to read the logs and enlighten us. We're confused. < 1277236299 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as for the usual one < 1277236301 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh < 1277236312 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err we're not confused < 1277236329 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well i guess cpressey is then :P < 1277236380 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes diagonalization proves it, you consider this trivial, so i assume you took the same definition as i? < 1277236413 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i assume it doesn't depend _that_ much on definition < 1277236425 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but < 1277236447 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm wondering how this works for arbitrary sets < 1277236453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you have a computable function Natural -> CompReal it shouldn't be that hard to construct a computable real it doesn't hit with diagonalization < 1277236483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm basing "we're confused" on the observation that Phantom_Hoover and I seem to disagree. < 1277236485 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah the proof is simple, i just found it an interesting concept < 1277236496 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least one of us is confused. < 1277236515 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: about what? phantom_hoover asked why diagonalization doesn't work, i explained, you were correct of course < 1277236539 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were just solving a paradox < 1277236549 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a sense < 1277236553 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : windows should never steal focus < 1277236556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye here < 1277236559 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cardinality of the of computable reals certainly looks countably infinite to me. But I don't see exactly what the flaw is in Phantom_Hoover's diagonalization argument. < 1277236581 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i told you, the surjection isn't countable so you cannot compute the real on the diagonal < 1277236597 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The diagonalization argument requires you to construct a computable real out of the diagonal of the list of all computable reals. < 1277236604 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, no list of all computable reals is computable. < 1277236637 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could you not create a Godel code to encode the algorithms to generate them? < 1277236654 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I thought I called that thing K... < 1277236654 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd need to verify that everything in the list is actually a computable real. < 1277236662 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which cannot be done. < 1277236677 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no you need to solve something like the halting problem to check whether an algorithm generates a computable real < 1277236716 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to you "verify" anything about an enumeration machine? < 1277236726 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1277236728 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The machine runs forever, generating more and more digits. < 1277236732 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think what the problem is < 1277236738 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the real it's generating is, therefore, computable. < 1277236741 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: do you think diagonalization is used to prove a set is COUNTABLE? < 1277236762 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said something about adding a new element to the list < 1277236773 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: No, it's used to prove a set has a higher cardinality than the sets making up the rows and columns, I thought. < 1277236803 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay then i still don't see why you want K, if you're proving the set of creals is countable, you don't need it < 1277236806 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: given any Turing machine that purportedly represents a real number, there are three possibilities: one, it halts; two, it outputs infinitely many digits; three, it outputs finitely many digits and stalls. < 1277236830 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given a Turing machine, it is impossible to tell which class it falls into; this is equivalent to solving the halting problem. < 1277236834 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You could reduce that to 2 possibilities, if it's useful. < 1277236860 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: is the existence of a computable bijection an equivalence relation on the class of all sets, is what i'm asking? well at least up to some classical cardinality < 1277236860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Actually, no. We're talking about *enumeration* machines here, which never halt. < 1277236866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in some sense < 1277236868 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1277236879 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so one is not a possibility. Two and three still are. < 1277236884 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And two and three still cannot be distinguished. < 1277236909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1277236932 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it satisfies R, S and T; that makes it an equivalence relation, right? < 1277236946 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does? how do you define it? < 1277237002 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I'm not quite convinced that they need to be distinguished. But I'll have to give thought to it later, unfortunately. < 1277237097 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I don't really know. < 1277237107 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: but he isn't trying to prove anything about diagonalization, so K is not actually used for anything but another name for surjection < 1277237121 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: of course they do. A list of computable real numbers can't contain something that isn't a computable real number. < 1277237123 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's trying to prove creals countable, so he doesn't use the enumeration part at all < 1277237129 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, you need to weed out the things that aren't computable real numbers. < 1277237241 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but assuming you wanted to know why diagonalization doesn't work (which you say you don't), then the reason they have to be distinguished is that while you can list all tm's, some of them never halt < 1277237242 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only output a finite amount of numbers, while you can, mathematically, interpret these as creals, a program that tries to get the nth digit (depending on how far in the diagonal we are), has to know whether the program actually ever outputs n digits, otherwise it has to use 0 or something < 1277237247 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1277237285 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with R you can say a bijection has to map reals to something as a limit process, 2^R is so big you can't really even do that < 1277237327 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there's no way to get enough information in to distinguish all of those (well this is not very precise, maybe there's some fucked up way) < 1277237459 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we need to have not just sets but also some sort of representations for them < 1277237465 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1277237470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe that doesn't really work < 1277237494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277237508 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1277237611 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: is the existence of a computable bijection an equivalence relation on the class of all sets, is what i'm asking? well at least up to some classical cardinality < 1277237631 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i'm not sure the inverse of a computable bijection is necessarily computable < 1277237639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1277237644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1277237648 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it is < 1277237657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no < 1277237660 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well umm < 1277237670 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the sets can be uncountable then... < 1277237673 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for integers it is but for things where you cannot decide equality < 1277237678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too < 1277237684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*but not for < 1277237701 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't even enumerate normal reals, and yet you can make functions from them; should we restrict to countable sets? < 1277237719 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however if you include the computability of the inverse then clearly it's an equivalence relation < 1277237750 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it would be, clearly, if i knew the definition < 1277237761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1277237769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's clear it's with any definition < 1277237771 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case < 1277237815 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose you need a concept of computable set as well, otherwise it may not have meaning to have computable functions on them < 1277237848 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe we could assume our turing machines compute functions N -> N, what do the equivalence classes look like < 1277237865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know < 1277237883 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i doubt anyone does < 1277237908 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then inversibility is obvious < 1277238004 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, a computable bijection has a computable inverse; but so what about injectivity and surjectivity, if we have an injection and a surjection, do we have a bijection? < 1277238017 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(injection f, surjection g) < 1277238044 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a minute < 1277238053 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't we forgetting banana-morphisms? < 1277238230 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1277238237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1277238332 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He means Banach analytical morphisms, of course. < 1277238427 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i don't see the disproof but anyway at least cardinality would not be totally ordered then < 1277238439 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait could it still be < 1277238444 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i think i am a bit confused. < 1277238458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i figured N would make things easier < 1277238526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i suspect the classification would be extremely complicated < 1277238570 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but do you see whether injectivity and surjectivity imply bijectivity? i doubt it < 1277238583 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it looks like it should be obviously false < 1277238608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the sets don't need to be recursive - if they are then they are probably in such a bijection with the whole of N itself or {1,...,n} for some n < 1277238669 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm even if there is such a bijection with N, does it have to be recursive? < 1277238675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know what exactly the "Triaged" status means for ubuntu bugs? < 1277238677 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/it/the set/ < 1277238691 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: AFAICT, it means they've assigned a priority < 1277238703 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a function that is both an injection and a surjection must by definition be a bijection < 1277238717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, higher than normal or lower than normal? < 1277238724 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any priority < 1277238728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Changed in linux (Ubuntu): < 1277238728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :status: Confirmed → Triaged " < 1277238728 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a separate listing for that < 1277238729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is all < 1277238731 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1277238733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ah < 1277238737 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably assigned normal priority then < 1277238739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, any idea where? < 1277238746 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be in the listing < 1277238747 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we assume non-recursive, if you have inj and surj from an RE set to a RE set, then h is a bijection, i think, where given x, h computes surj(x), then for all y < x, it computes h(y) and if h(y)=h(x), it increments x and recurses onto itself < 1277238751 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1277238764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, well I don't know where the listing is indeed < 1277238775 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you got an email? < 1277238778 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a link in the email < 1277238781 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: does that make sense? < 1277238794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i think my brain refuses to think about this any more :D < 1277238795 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can prove by induction that h always terminates, because there's a finite amount of smaller y < 1277238799 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and < 1277238809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x+1 means "such y that after x is enumerated, y is" < 1277238816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y We are partnered with Sun. Also, we hate Java users. < 1277239538 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhhh < 1277239543 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what I want to know is if there is a way to automatically translate primitive recursive functions to general-recursive but more efficient counterparts. I'm sure not all could be done, but I'd be happy with only 50%. < 1277239558 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1277239578 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: y < 1277240326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1277240402 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in modern usage, people don't know better and think javascript is equivalent < 1277240405 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.es is the proper extension < 1277240417 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION applauds uorygl
< 1277240417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1277240424 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277240438 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was rather wtf'd about "whispers innocently" < 1277240454 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should figure out how to write Haskell bindings so that I can write a Haskell binding to (the most useful parts of) SpiderMonkey. < 1277240456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1277240462 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :formally, JavaScript now refers to the Mozilla implementation and dialect of ECMAScript < 1277240479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1277240485 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will be called HaSM, despite the atrocity of this name. < 1277240494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw what did sun think about it being called javascript < 1277240500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't imagine them being happy at all back then < 1277240506 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an awesome mental typo < 1277240507 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In windows, one of the context menu options for .js files is "Open with Command prompt" < 1277240515 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It was actually a marketing ploy < 1277240516 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. If I move to Finland, I'll probably be able to register hasm.fi. < 1277240522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, hm? < 1277240525 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think Sun explicitly allowed it. < 1277240531 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea why. :P < 1277240531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, how strange < 1277240538 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah; it was to increase visibility of the name Java < 1277240551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, if javascript = mozilla's implementation then cpressey doesn't have to make it work in IE < 1277240558 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be strange if JavaScript were actually Java script. < 1277240566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, his employer should have said EMCAscript if that was what he meant < 1277240569 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be a better language < 1277240591 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I made a language called Foobar, then FoobarScript would in fact be a scripting version of the same language. < 1277240594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a second, it is