00:00:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:06:42 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:09:55 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:20:35 oerjan: you broke our dutch guy, he speaks norwegian instead of swedish now! 00:22:23 -!- augur has joined. 00:23:53 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 00:23:56 Night. 00:24:05 oerjan: oh! and incidentally he has the same name as you, only in dutch 00:24:18 Orjanken. 00:24:26 Night. 00:24:33 ehirdiphone: what became of Braces? 00:24:33 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Client Quit). 00:24:45 :( 00:24:55 we've been drive-by ehirded 00:26:36 -!- wareya_ has joined. 00:29:24 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:36:37 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:38:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:38:16 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 00:40:53 -!- coppro has joined. 00:53:57 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:55:54 -!- augur has joined. 00:56:10 olsner: wait, what? 00:57:05 dbc, dbc and I are categorical duels. <-- what was that about? 00:57:39 olsner, who would that be 00:57:47 olsner, and indeed that seems seriously broken 00:58:15 -!- augur_ has joined. 00:59:49 -!- augur__ has joined. 01:00:20 who the heck is our dutch guy 01:00:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:01:08 categorical duel is clearly the same as a galois connection 01:02:42 oerjan, argh 01:03:06 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:07:09 -!- augur has joined. 01:08:25 -!- augur__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:15:39 -!- augur_ has joined. 01:16:09 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:26:47 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:31:34 -!- uorygl has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 01:32:07 -!- augur_ has joined. 01:33:47 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:35:32 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 01:37:09 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.3/20100401080539]). 01:39:07 has anyone else read Mathematicians in Love? 01:39:09 -!- Warrigal has joined. 01:39:58 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:40:21 Anyone willing to join me in working on this project I've been working on? 01:40:30 o.O at Warrigal not being named uorygl 01:40:35 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to uorygl. 01:40:38 Thanks for reminding me. 01:40:44 What's the project you're working on? 01:41:42 A remake of a previous game on this platform 01:42:47 It [at least the portion that's being programmed] is written in C# 01:46:14 -!- augur has joined. 01:48:03 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:49:59 Sgeo: it's a virtual world kind of thing right? If I didn't have so much on my plate right now then I would actually consider it. 01:50:40 Yes, but the "virtual world" bit is already programmed long ago, we don't need to handle how to display stuff, or networking issues, etc. etc. 01:52:34 Hm, thank you anyway 01:55:47 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:56:09 -!- augur has joined. 02:00:57 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya. 02:02:58 Sgeo: ah, so scripting more or less? 02:03:28 Not really :/ 02:03:32 hmm, ah 02:03:42 it would be nice to have a scripting engine of some kind. Maybe use Lua. 02:03:50 Even things that should probably be scripted really aren't :/ 02:04:00 We could add a scripting engine to the bot, but I'm not sure if it's worth it 02:04:10 yeah. possible 02:04:25 It would depend on how big of a project it was. 02:04:28 I assume not very big. 02:04:36 There's a grand total of 7 puzzles that will be programmed, 6 of which have already been programmed in C# 02:05:01 It feels big, but maybe that's because of the hiatuses I've taken, and the repeated rewrites, etc. etc. 02:06:28 lua is actually harder than it sounds to parse 02:06:43 a lua vm isn't particularly hard, though 02:06:57 I think I saw some Lua parser for C# though 02:07:07 i tried making a lua bytecode compiler in lua 02:07:12 the point? i have a lua vm in java 02:07:42 The thing is, at this late stage, there's not much point in suddenly adding scripting 02:08:00 Although the virtual world does have limited scripting abilities, which I do take advantage of, instead of hardcoding in the bot 02:08:36 I'm pretty sure it's not TC though, and things that happen tend either not be visible to anyone but the one person, or to everyone around at the time, but no one else 02:24:51 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:24:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:32:56 -!- cal153 has quit. 02:42:17 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:42:50 -!- coppro has joined. 02:43:51 I need to stop using Firefox 02:48:07 Chrome++ 02:50:30 I need to stop using chrome 02:50:45 the UI is screwet 02:50:49 screwey* 02:52:45 -!- Halph has joined. 02:53:18 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:53:30 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 03:04:30 -!- uorygl has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:05:12 I think I'm going to make a little Python library 03:05:23 that takes a function, extracts the source code, and saves it to a file 03:05:28 so I can save snippets of things I'm doing in the shell. 03:05:38 s/saves/appends/ 03:07:25 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:11:06 CakeProphet: i'm not sure python actually preserves the source code of functions after they're defined... 03:11:34 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:12:40 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 03:15:57 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:16:34 -!- augur has joined. 03:25:01 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:28:06 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:36:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 03:36:19 -!- olsner has joined. 03:36:34 -!- augur has joined. 04:08:36 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:10:38 -!- mtve has joined. 04:12:54 hmmm... are PRNG less random on small ranges of values? 04:13:12 my coin toss function in Python seems a little wonky to me. 04:13:46 they're frequently less random on lower bits 04:14:36 so using modulo to reduce the range is not recommended 04:15:12 this all presumably depends on exactly which PRNG is used 04:15:33 While they've improved, a 'typical' PRNG will probably fail the 3- or 4-dimensionality test 04:16:24 CakeProphet: there is of course also the possibility you have an actual bug :D 04:17:04 ha. In Python? 04:17:06 import random 04:17:09 random.randint(0,1) 04:17:16 I'v got at lest one one and one zero 04:17:30 right... that _should_ be taken care of, then 04:17:39 on an unfortunate note 04:17:52 the inspect module in Python cannot grab source lines from functions defined in a shell 04:18:12 CakeProphet: that's what i suspected above 04:18:19 this greatly saddens me. Sometimes I make some useful little script-like function things, but I never take the time to save them. 04:19:01 I guess it makes sense. It would be ridiculous to save a source string for every function defined. Like the __doc__ attribute. 04:19:12 CakeProphet: hm, maybe you can find another way to save lines as they are entered? 04:19:41 hrm... 04:19:51 would require some kind of debugger magic. 04:19:57 I think. 04:20:19 I don't know how Python's debugger module works. But I've seen an implementation of goto and come from in Python that uses it. 04:20:23 well some hook into the input routine the python repl uses, or something? 04:20:53 perhaps. Not sure if it has said hook. I'll look around, just not at the moment. It is definitely something I desire. 04:21:28 I'd love to just have a file that has functions I've defined in shell appended to it... actually I'd have more than one. One uncategorized and others with definite categories. 04:21:57 ....here's a cool idea. Why not have functions that do things like "move source of function F in module A to module B" 04:22:09 that seems pretty useful. I'd imagine it being faster than copying and pasting. 04:23:08 * oerjan suspects that's such a thing as them thar newfangled eye dee ee things do... 04:23:30 yeah... but I can never find one I like. The interfaces are always ridiculous. 04:23:40 and I've never had the patience to sit down and learn something like emacs. 04:23:54 oerjan: what IDEs do you use? 04:24:14 none either, just vim 04:24:26 i'm a very small scale programmer at best 04:24:41 my computer is kind of slow. I'm working on an Android app right now and Eclipse is dismally slow. 04:25:01 I usually just use gedit... but there are some manual text-editing things I do that I really wish I could automate. 04:27:33 I might try emacs just because it seems kind of tailored to that kind of thing. 04:28:11 Might as well learn all the esoteric key combinations. And programming in some crazy aspect-oriented Lisp dialect sounds fun. 04:28:45 in any case 04:28:51 I'm going to go get fucked up and then study some history 04:28:57 see everyone later. 04:29:08 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:38:40 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:41:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 04:47:49 -!- Warrigal has joined. 05:02:22 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:08:19 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:10:29 lag: 37.1 seconds 05:10:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Client Quit). 05:20:10 -!- yiyus has joined. 05:23:59 -!- augur has joined. 05:28:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:51:29 -!- augur has joined. 06:00:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:09:17 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:20:51 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to uorygl. 06:24:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:58:36 -!- coppro has joined. 07:01:28 -!- tombom has joined. 07:11:37 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:14:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:34:04 -!- cal153 has joined. 07:49:13 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:19:07 -!- augur has joined. 08:19:41 future alise: comic for you? http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/index.php 08:20:02 dont respond via logs, i dont log read. ping until i respond. 08:21:40 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:21:55 Are there any register/stackvirtual machine hybrids? 08:38:29 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:46:30 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 08:59:25 -!- Deewiant has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:02:30 -!- Deewiant has joined. 09:03:18 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:41:23 -!- MizardX has joined. 09:49:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:04:17 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:18:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:20:08 -!- cal153 has quit. 11:38:47 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.4/20100611143157]). 11:49:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:49:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:50:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:59:11 hai 11:59:17 hi 12:08:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:11:55 xkcd :D (especially the hovertext) 12:18:33 hm, I don't get the hover text. *googles that word* 12:18:50 consider yourself lucky :D 12:19:36 * oerjan only knows because he sometimes reads newspapers 12:19:59 I don't during summer 12:20:09 and never the sports pages 12:20:41 oh and of course because there have been reddit links about it 12:23:29 amusing spam seen at Slashdot: That is one of the greatest things ever.That is one of the most incredible feelings on Earth.Thank you for bringing a well thought out and reasoned comment to the discussion. Cheap Wholesale T-shirts 12:23:34 where I snipped out the link location 12:23:49 hah 12:24:06 (also, converted HTML to plaintext for IRC purposes) 12:24:13 even funnier, it wasn't actually in reply to anything 12:24:56 ais523: this feels relevant: http://www.theonion.com/articles/amazing-new-hyperbolic-chamber-greatest-invention,1321/ 12:25:08 * AnMaster wonders if 98 SEK / month is cheap or expensive for 3G. Includes 1 GB data traffic / month at 6 Mbit/s, after that reduced to crawl speed but doesn't cost extra. 12:25:20 how much is an SEK? 12:25:22 5000 free SMS / month (would never reach that limit) 12:25:28 ais523, in which currency? 12:25:36 any I know the value of 12:25:39 although preferably GBP 12:25:47 sec 12:25:55 98 Swedish kronor = 8.47548881 British pounds 12:25:57 says google 12:26:07 hmm, seems pretty good 12:26:19 hm 12:26:24 but I'm not sure how much it /should/ cost, I don't have a mobile 12:26:29 hah 12:54:40 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 12:57:10 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 13:18:38 is alise canned again 13:20:12 cheater99: yes but he sometimes sneaks in here as ehirdiphone 13:20:28 i thought that was just for one week 13:20:38 how did she get holed up again? 13:21:02 cheater99: it's _every_ week, more or less. 13:21:17 what about those long weeks where she was out 13:21:22 they're demanding he live there 13:21:36 is that because of her gender ambiguosity? 13:22:03 eh, either way 13:22:09 cheater99: well there was one week recently when he had some days off, presumably because school's out or something... 13:22:19 i just hope alise gets out quickly 13:22:27 so we can abuse her on irc here 13:22:56 cheater99: there is no gender ambiguity, just a joke based on a nick change 13:23:15 that's the way.... you see things. 13:23:57 well alise _has_ mentioned he's often mistaken for female irl, but i have had no impression he really wants to be 13:24:46 admission will come. 13:24:55 perhaps, perhaps :D 13:25:07 I doubt it 13:25:08 why would you admit being mistaken for a girl if you didn't secretly wish you were one? 13:25:14 just as long as he doesn't go as crazy as fax 13:25:27 cheater99, because you don't have a huge ego admitting that is no issue? 13:25:37 ? 13:25:55 I refuse to explain this joke 13:27:19 that was a joke? 13:27:22 you have failed me. 13:27:33 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.4/20100611143157]). 13:28:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:28:44 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:29:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:29:50 that's moderately cool 13:30:00 i have xchat maximized 13:30:06 and i cannot switch to any other apps 13:31:37 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:31:42 cheater99, what is moderately cool? 13:31:56 the thing i just mentioned. 13:31:59 ah 13:32:15 cheater99, that referred to something you was going to say. I see 13:32:19 confused me a bit 13:34:45 the joke struck a time traveling paradox and ceased to have ever existed 13:34:55 gender ambiguosity? 13:35:15 oh okay 13:35:19 oklopol: alise likes to use female pronouns with his nick 13:35:31 cheater99: little kids occasionally mistake me for a girl 13:35:40 NOOOOO 13:35:55 oklopol: you're supposed to be this channel's epitome of masculinity 13:36:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:37:10 well i have long hair, that's enough for kids occasionally 13:37:38 and according to some people i also look somewhat girlish, which is weird because i almost never shave my highly irregular beard 13:38:16 but okay i'll try to keep epitomizing 13:38:24 i was just not aware of this 13:38:28 * oerjan has no idea how oklopol looks, actually, as evidenced by the fact he had no idea oklopol had a beard 13:38:39 well i haven't had one for all that long 13:38:46 although beards are masculine, so that's ok 13:38:55 but just like my hair, i usually just let it grow as much as it likes 13:39:05 and in any shape 13:39:34 just like i don't cut my body parts if they grow too big 13:39:36 in fact the only person on the channel i know/can remember how looks is gregor 13:39:44 oh wait there is one more person 13:39:47 i used to have a book on frappr 13:39:59 (the obvious one) 13:40:10 but that was the only picture online afaik, i actually doubt many people have access to any kinds of pictures of me 13:40:22 (i don't) 13:40:36 oh wait i did take those vids 13:40:41 where i played the piano naked 13:40:49 ...right 13:41:03 now i kinda wanna go play the piano naked 13:41:11 SUIT YOURSELF 13:41:16 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 13:41:33 i'm assuming you still shave regularly? 13:41:33 wait, that's actually ambiguous 13:41:37 yes 13:41:38 wasn't that the point? 13:41:53 nope, only discovered it after pressing enter 13:42:07 i have a hard time believing that :\ 13:42:30 my unconscious has a mind of its own 13:42:31 it was probably clear what i was implying by "still", that was accidental meanness. 13:43:04 (not sure you noticed so maybe it would've been more polite not to mention it :D) 13:43:13 i'm not aware of beards stopping to grow, usually. now the top of my head on the other hand... 13:43:45 oh no i meant because i've understood you're basically a hermit :D 13:43:52 oerjan, wait you mean it wasn't intentional to refer to wearing a suit there? 13:44:01 like oklopol I have a hard time believing that 13:44:02 AnMaster: nope it wasn't 13:44:23 i'm assuming you still shave regularly? <-- do you? 13:44:38 I don't shave at all 13:44:43 nor do I 13:44:44 well 13:44:59 I like my beard 13:45:02 oh, actually i guess i can believe you were saying "as you wish", for some reason i thought you meant "put some clothes on" and it was an accident that it was an idiom xD 13:45:05 I need to do something about the moustache sometimes. Otherwise it interferes with eating 13:45:06 :/ 13:45:09 AnMaster: no, i do not 13:45:11 * oerjan suddenly realizes he's in a dark channel with a lot of men with full beards 13:45:16 but apart from that I don't shave 13:45:29 oerjan, alas mine grow slowly... 13:46:01 i just meant oerjan seems like the kind of person who would shave his beard every morning (at 12:13) years after stopping to go out of his house 13:46:08 I have very thick hair on top of my head, but my beard is less well behaved. :( 13:46:20 oklopol, XD 13:46:41 oklopol: i haven't stopped to go out of the house 13:46:47 i'm just making sure you understand i was implying this, because otherwise it makes no sense i apologized for it 13:46:53 oerjan: i know, added some joking 13:47:07 outside? I heard rumours of this place 13:47:12 strange place I heard 13:47:16 i mean i do know everything you have *told* me about your routines 13:47:19 no roof. 13:47:25 isn't it just mystical? 13:47:27 AnMaster: what about rain then? 13:47:30 buckets? 13:47:32 oklopol, you mean the shower? 13:47:34 if oerjan wasn't Norwegian, I could imagine him spending his entire day in an immaculate suit 13:47:41 AnMaster: ohh that's what it's for 13:47:42 but somehow that strikes me as not being a particularly Norwegian thing to do 13:47:57 s/mystical/mythical/ 13:47:58 typo there 13:48:00 AnMaster: i have no idea how my beard behaves because i've never let it grow, it starts annoyingly itching after 2/3 days 13:48:17 ok i guess technically that's a part of its behavior 13:48:23 oerjan, ah but that passes if you wait a bit more IME 13:48:28 yeah, i guess my shaving guess was based on the fact oerjan looks a bit like a bible salesman 13:48:54 ais523, oerjan isn't very Norwegian. Doesn't like skiing iirc! 13:48:55 (again, i don't actively remember faces so i cannot say this is really my opinion, vague recollection :D) 13:49:26 i think i've seen ais523 too but i confuse him with this really bearded dude from uni 13:49:28 oklopol: the rain is just because the outside is leaking, no wonder with no roof 13:49:36 * AnMaster listens to Gregor's music. 13:49:46 Gregor, I really like the wipp previews of op13 13:50:08 Gregor: all your music sucks ass in general, and you should stop composing and become a bricklayer. 13:50:20 fuck you, seriously 13:50:26 oklopol, what? 13:50:27 where's his musics again btw? 13:50:32 AnMaster: i'm trying new things 13:50:33 oklopol, codu.org 13:50:36 remember, new oklopol 13:50:40 oh right 13:50:53 that webpage the name of which i've heard 70 times 13:50:54 oklopol, http://codu.org/music/ and http://codu.org/music/wipp.php to be more specific 13:51:05 oklopol: the only picture of me you can possibly have seen _does_ look a bit like a bible salesman, come to think of it 13:51:16 oklopol: the rain is just because the outside is leaking, no wonder with no roof <-- took me about 10 seconds to figure out that that was a joke 13:51:18 oerjan: can you up a more recent one? 13:51:25 instead I just thought I'd missed context 13:51:34 oerjan, what photo is that? 13:51:49 ais523: that was why i asked "buckets?", that was actually sort of *my* joke 13:52:03 instead I just thought I'd missed context <-- instead of what? 13:52:07 oklopol: i have no digital camera in any form. although my dad is insisting on financing a new cell phone for my birthday so that may change 13:52:08 that the roof must be very leaky given there isn't one 13:52:14 oerjan: coool 13:52:20 AnMaster: instead of oerjan having made a joke 13:52:21 can you play the piano naked? 13:52:34 oklopol: what a strange question 13:52:42 ais523: i meant, oerjan in the pic 13:52:49 if it's directed at me, given a suitable piano I can play it while wearing clothes, and I'm not sure if the lack of the clothes would make a difference 13:52:51 you may have missed the context for that 13:52:54 ah 13:53:05 ais523, which ones of the jokes? 13:53:17 oh that one 13:53:18 right 13:53:34 i have videos of my playing the piano naked online 13:53:50 (you can't see anything, but technically) 13:53:54 ... 13:54:15 I don't suppose there's any nice assembler-oriented text frontend for GDB? Something simple, with a disassembly view, IP highlight, single-key single-step, and register values continuously visible in a separate pane or something. (I've used cgdb with single-key macros of "stepi" and "info registers", but it's still a bit pessimal.) 13:54:32 fizzie, um. set gdb language to asm iirc? 13:55:19 fizzie, or have you tried that already? As for frontend in general, something like ddd can probably set up to show registers in a separate pane 13:55:32 but it was years ago I used any frontend for gdb at all 13:55:38 AnMaster: http://oerjan.nvg.org/face.gif~ (must be about 15 years old by now) 13:55:58 fizzie, also I suppose there is some emacs fontend for gdb that could do this. There is bound to be one almost by definition 13:56:30 oerjan, wrong mime type 13:56:34 Setting the language doesn't really do much; you still have to type out "info registers" every time you want to see the values. And there's no permanently-visible-with-current-row-highlighted disassembly view either. It's not *bad*, it's just not quite what I want. 13:56:37 yeah i had no idea you look like that 13:56:40 oerjan, wants to save as attachment 13:56:47 absolutely no idea 13:57:01 Opening 'http://oerjan.nvg.org/face.gif~' failed: Procedure 'file-uri-load' returned no return values 13:57:06 seen that guy tho, not sure where, without cheating 13:57:06 oerjan, doesn't work in gimp either 13:57:24 ddd is (well, was five-ten years ago) pretty horrible; cgdb is at least a text-based thing. 13:57:30 oh wait 13:57:40 oerjan, that is you? 13:57:55 * AnMaster tries to remember the name of that reverse image search engine 13:57:55 AnMaster: yep 13:58:06 because that face seems familiar too 13:58:10 oerjan: can you see how to construct X and Y such that there is no injection from one to the other? 13:58:14 i doubt it's anywhere else 13:58:34 i've been trying to do this, but i have a very limited set of tools for this in my head 13:58:34 fizzie, hm 13:59:01 oklopol: um in ZFC there always is 13:59:24 oerjan: sorry yesterday's context 13:59:33 computable injections 13:59:37 subsets of N 13:59:41 -!- Quadresce` has joined. 13:59:54 There's something in Emacs, but, well. 14:00:50 -!- Quadresce` has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:00:58 AnMaster: btw it's the wrong mime type because i've appended ~ in order that it _not_ appear on the web - face.gif was used for some nvg.org directory page at one time 14:00:59 btw maybe a bit nontrivial (but probably not), there exists a set that's properly smaller than N w.r.t. injections, and properly bigger than it w.r.t. surjections 14:01:00 fizzie, what? 14:01:05 fizzie, are you a vim user? 14:01:07 or something 14:01:19 so you see what those terms mean or do i define? or actually do you care at all? 14:02:02 I guess I'll have to try it. It does have some sort of "gdb-many-windows" variable which makes it show up a register buffer (where you can even edit the values). 14:02:18 fizzie, never tried it myself 14:03:02 oklopol: well i can guess what they mean but it's not a subject i know about 14:03:04 anyway the set of (encodings of, or as an instance of the same problem for subsets of {0, 1}^*) prefices of the binary expansion of an uncomputable real number 14:03:24 oerjan: well to me it's a subject i invented yesterday 14:03:27 fizzie, oh and can't gdb itself support split windows? Or is that only for showing source in the upper half? 14:03:55 I don't really know about that. I guess I should read the manual there. 14:04:07 fizzie, hm are you an emacs or vim user? 14:04:12 I don't remember 14:04:32 I'm both, which is even worse, I guess. 14:04:35 "The gdb Text User Interface (TUI) is a terminal interface which uses the curses library to show the source file, the assembly output, the program registers and gdb commands in separate text windows." 14:04:41 That doesn't sound so bad. 14:04:50 fizzie: heh, it's well-known that most of the people in this channel either use both vim/emacs, or neither 14:04:56 except by a few trolls 14:05:06 oklopol: well any subset of N is properly smaller wrt injections, and if you make it include some simple infinite set like all even numbers it will be bigger by surjections. then you can probably tweak the odd subset to be too complicated to have a computable bijection 14:05:08 thus, the answer to "are you an emacs or vim user" should be "yes" or "no" 14:05:23 ais523, emacs, kate, nano for me 14:05:34 oerjan: no any two RE sets are the same size for instance, with both definitions 14:05:46 AnMaster: I use something like six or seven editors 14:05:52 most commonly emacs and gedit, though 14:05:58 oklopol: well the set cannot be RE then... 14:06:07 well, I do use gedit if there is no other option 14:06:11 indeed it can't 14:06:24 I use gedit for little things for which notepad would be sufficient 14:06:55 or wait maybe i'm misunderstanding what you're saying 14:07:29 ais523: yay i'm a troll now (never use emacs these days, only vim) 14:07:43 "well any subset of N is properly smaller wrt injections" <<< this i don't think is true, "if you make it include some simple infinite set like all even numbers it will be bigger by surjections" is not either afaiu 14:07:51 oerjan: I meant, it was a troll who recently tried to make everyone side with emacs or vim 14:08:23 X is properly inj-smaller than Y if there's an injection from X to Y but not from Y to X, for surjs the other way around, just to make sure. 14:08:48 oklopol: um the identity function will be an injection, and division by 2 function will be a surjection 14:09:02 oh hm 14:09:26 oerjan, on what set would division by two be a surjection? 14:09:27 ok having all evens would ruin the lack of a reverse injection 14:09:31 well explain whether those statements were actually wrong or if i misunderstood you 14:09:40 AnMaster: integer division 14:09:45 oerjan, ah 14:10:03 oerjan, Would be a bijection on R clearly 14:10:12 oklopol: no by your definition what i said isn't smaller by injection 14:10:16 AnMaster: or Q 14:10:51 oerjan, well yes 14:11:14 oerjan: so... were you wrong? and which of those two statements are you referring to? 14:11:37 talking is so complicated :-P 14:11:44 oklopol: my example was wrong 14:11:47 okay 14:13:09 oklopol: however this means there could be no computable injection from N to X, if Y is a subset of N 14:13:23 so basically the question is, by those definitions, can we find two sets that are comparable in size in both ways (inj and surj), but disagree on those 14:13:42 (meaning we probably shouldn't think of them as sizes...) 14:13:47 oklopol: which is actually stronger than X being non-RE, isn't it 14:14:00 i believe so 14:15:05 (anyway i already gave the answer, i guess you must've missed it) 14:15:06 in fact X should have no infinite RE subset 14:15:10 yep 14:15:36 the prof i mentioned this to's first thought was that's impossible 14:15:45 first time i outsmarted him 14:15:56 (by at least 10 seconds) 14:16:01 oklopol: that uncomputable real prefix thing? 14:16:04 yeah 14:16:38 is X a specific set or "any set" here? 14:17:02 the idea generalizes muchly, say to functions from N to N, taking the language {f(1)#...#f(n) | n \in N} 14:17:28 if you have an infinite RE subset, then f(N) is RE too 14:17:33 AnMaster: any subset of N 14:18:17 we're talking about computable functions between subsets of N, f : X -> Y, defined with tm's that, given and element of X give you an element of Y, and can do anything outside X (even not halt) 14:18:38 (i don't know if this definition has been mentioned, you might disagree on its naturality) 14:19:11 oklopol, ah 14:19:34 oklopol, ah 14:19:37 oklopol: sounds like what i thought. anyway, see you later 14:19:41 hm 14:19:45 okay bye 14:19:55 sounds quite interesting 14:20:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Bye!). 14:20:39 i think it is, i'm pretty sure it should be embeddable in something like recursion theory, but the one prof i asked saw no direct connection (not really his area) 14:20:41 oklopol, you mean so that it gives you an injection from X to Y? 14:21:07 no it does not have to be an injection, the definition of computable injection is that it's also an injection, as one might guess :) 14:21:30 and surjections mean Y is sort of "RE, once you know X" 14:21:38 oklopol, ah, so it can give the same element of Y for several elements of X then? 14:22:15 or do you mean that there can be several elements of Y mapping to the same element of X? Or both of these? 14:22:20 AnMaster: it can be any function, we just require that elements of X go inside Y, otherwise the tm can do anything it likes. 14:22:31 oklopol, ah 14:22:32 Y doesn't map to X 14:22:35 X maps to Y 14:22:46 deterministic turing machiens 14:22:48 *machines 14:23:05 oklopol, so the function f(x) = 1 where {1,2,3} satisfies this then? 14:23:15 err where Y = {1,2,3} 14:23:16 I meant 14:23:21 that Y = dropped out somewhere 14:23:42 yes, a tm computing that can be given any domain 14:24:10 oklopol, well I meant "so constant function is okay then?" with that 14:24:18 hm 14:24:27 and my answer applies to that 14:24:30 yes, it's oikay 14:24:31 right 14:24:31 *oaky 14:24:33 *oaky 14:24:36 *fuck it 14:24:42 oklopol, heh 14:24:59 Oaky oklopol. Alliteration! 14:25:12 but i haven't even been able to prove there are two sets that are incomparable, that is, two sets with no injection either way 14:25:36 oklopol: {Chuck Norris} and the natural numbers 14:25:38 currently my definition of size is with injectivity, X is smaller than Y if there's an injection from X to Y. this is natural because if X is a subset of Y then identity works 14:25:56 *smaller than of equal size 14:26:01 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 14:26:05 (not really a direct substitution) 14:26:47 but it's obvious to me that subsets of N aren't totally ordered with this definition 14:27:22 i mean totally comparable, you'll get a partition into equivalence classes ofc, because injections are a preorder 14:27:28 ais523, why Chuck Norris? 14:27:46 or was that a bad chuck norris joke? 14:27:48 AnMaster: because you can't compare him with a natural number, or indeed anything else 14:27:56 okay then it was 14:28:55 Terminilogy seen during a wikipedia browsing run: "A totally ineffable cardinal is a cardinal that is n-ineffable for every n." It's nice that there's a techical definition for that word too. 14:29:25 oklopol, hm are there any incomparable sets? Or is that not yet proven either way? 14:31:32 http://www.ashleymills.com/?q=befunge_applet_lite treats undefined commands as 'push ASCII value of command on stack' 14:31:53 Is there any precedent for that? 14:32:24 -!- rodgort has joined. 14:33:36 Deewiant, not that I can remember 14:33:50 It does sound weird to me. 14:33:55 Deewiant, 93? 14:33:58 Yes, 93 14:34:03 http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/28625/ relies on that behaviour 14:35:07 Deewiant, lets see.. brainfuck, C, befunge? Anything else? 14:35:19 Python, Perl, Ruby 14:35:38 I have to admit I didn't spot the befunge part right away, probably wouldn't if you hadn't mentioned that 14:35:45 Deewiant, heh? 14:36:44 Deewiant, what does the program do? 14:36:48 Prints "404" 14:37:01 hm 14:37:12 It also relies on a . that doesn't put a space in. 14:37:21 Well, not really. 14:37:32 It still looks the same :-P 14:38:11 Not quite, but I guess it's reasonable. 14:38:24 Deewiant, so that program is "definee"44.*.@ ? 14:38:37 No 14:38:42 It's 14:39:00 definee4*.@ 14:39:03 you said it relied on undefined pushing on stack 14:39:11 I did 14:39:13 And it does 14:39:18 Deewiant, yes but I tried to translate to "pushes on stack" 14:39:21 in normal befunge 14:39:31 Right, to make it valid it needs quotes 14:39:36 "definee"4*.@ 14:39:38 Deewiant, exactly 14:39:44 Deewiant, there are two 4 14:39:50 Or to make it run in most interps, define"e"4*.@ is enough 14:40:08 No; you're missing the line-break symbol on the previous line 14:40:13 Or line-joiner symbol 14:40:14 Whatever 14:40:17 The arrows 14:40:21 Deewiant, oh so that is what it is 14:40:24 Or look at the line numbers on the left 14:40:42 right 14:41:28 Deewiant: Oh, right, I looked at the "4." bit and thought it's going to do it separately, i.e. "4 0 4 ": that's why I mentioned the spaces. Missed the line-joiners too on the first read; only just noticed them while tracing further. 14:41:30 Deewiant, I don't get how #> is quoted properly for C though 14:41:44 AnMaster: /* 14:41:48 oh up there 14:41:49 right 14:42:12 fizzie: FWIW that applet also doesn't print a space after . 14:43:16 Deewiant, how did you find that applet? 14:43:22 Deewiant: Heh, well... the spec does say it should. (In contrast to the undefined-handling bit, which it is silent about.) 14:43:24 Linked from that stack overflow 14:43:28 fizzie: Yep 14:45:20 Deewiant, should report a bug 14:46:47 I just commented on reddit instead 14:47:10 Deewiant, hm 15:04:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:04:37 ais523, why do you have the "523" in your name? 15:04:52 Phantom_Hoover: it's my email address, which was originally assigned at random 15:05:08 Ah. 15:05:10 if they're going to force an arbitrary number into my email at random, I'm going to use it everywhere just so it becomes non-arbitrary! That'll show them! 15:05:25 But it's annoying to type! 15:05:28 even more amusingly, the number seems to have some significance in Discordianism, although I wasn't aware of this at the time 15:05:31 Phantom_Hoover: you have tab-complete? 15:05:39 At least, until you get tabbing. 15:05:42 I suppose most three-digit numbers are significant to something 15:05:54 All 1000 of them? 15:06:00 Hmm, wait. 15:06:17 All 900 of them? 15:06:39 I'd think so, 900 isn't a lot given the number of things in the world there are to be significant to 15:08:14 good point 15:08:32 wow, defragmenting my dpkg database takes a long time. 15:08:56 cp -a info info.new .... running. 15:09:45 How does that defrag? 15:10:00 think about it for a second 15:10:11 Phantom_Hoover: because files fragment when they're made larger 15:10:22 he's creating a new file from scratch, which will therefore be created in a defragged state 15:10:26 Ahh. 15:10:27 Phantom_Hoover, tab complete 15:10:30 i ^C'd it and put time around it. 15:10:35 let's see what happens. 15:10:44 cheater99: what filesystem are you using, anyway? fragmentation doesn't hurt performance on ext2/3/4 until they're around 90% full 15:10:46 AnMaster, you can't tab-complete "tab-complete". 15:10:53 And it takes ages to type. 15:10:56 -!- ais523 has changed nick to tab-complete. 15:10:58 now you can 15:11:02 ais523: my dpkg db has 30k tiny, tiny, files in it 15:11:15 Phantom_Hoover, why would you need that? 15:11:22 tab-complete, what if I need it to be capital? 15:11:23 Phantom_Hoover, I meant tab complete ais523 15:11:36 ahahah 15:11:43 Ironic that I changed my nick, then 15:11:47 Phantom_Hoover, anyway you could script your client to tab complete tab complete 15:11:50 while i'm doing this, i got a popup complaining about my diskspace running low 15:11:52 amazing 15:12:00 cheater99, what thing? 15:12:28 time [`cp -a info info.new2`] 15:12:41 cheater99, I would suggest using xfs 15:12:46 then xfs_fsr defrags 15:12:49 no 15:12:52 cheater99, hm? 15:13:00 just 'no'. 15:13:09 well I use a mix of xfs, jfs, ext4 and ext3 15:13:14 ext3 is just for /boot 15:13:26 i use a mix of asian, caucasian, and black lovers 15:13:32 since I still use grub 1 it seems. Don't fix what isn't broken and so on 15:13:37 especially true for bootloaders 15:13:40 real3m51.322s 15:13:40 user0m0.296s 15:13:40 sys0m2.440s 15:14:03 cheater99, IO waiting most then 15:14:20 so? 15:14:20 idle would be neither user nor sys 15:14:29 but still be wall clock 15:14:44 cheater99, oh thought you were wondering about user+sys << real 15:14:44 wat 15:14:50 no. 15:15:02 i don't actually know the difference between those numbers 15:15:06 ah 15:15:42 real is actual time. user is active time in user space, and sys is active time in kernel. With active time I mean "not spent being idle or running other tasks" 15:16:14 cheater99, now you know 15:16:19 ok, let's install something and see if it runs fast 15:17:49 ugh... 15:18:07 I do not want to take take two, 2-and-a-half hour long midterms. 15:18:13 40 minutes away 15:18:20 why not? 15:18:22 exams are fun 15:18:34 meh. 15:19:17 drink a lot of water. 15:19:40 ok, doing that didn't really help much at all 15:19:46 but at least now my python is upgraded 15:20:13 studying and stress are not as fun. 15:20:22 * CakeProphet gets stressed out by big tests these days. Not in the past. 15:24:52 Are there actually any decent console-based web browsers? 15:25:01 why on earth is my computer getting slower these days. 15:25:02 None of them seem to be capable of JavaScript. 15:25:18 CakeProphet, it's tired before the holidays. 15:25:56 hurr hurr. 15:26:05 At least elinks does a bit of JavaScript. 15:26:14 And I thought even lynx had some sort of a patch. 15:26:31 But no really. Does cleaning out dust and stuff noticably speed up a computer? I'm at a loss. I assume it's just malfunctioning more. 15:26:50 I almost hear a new strange noise everytime I turn it on. 15:29:58 hahaha. could you imagine trying to support Javascript's DOM on a command line interface? 15:30:51 Why not? 15:31:09 And I didn't say command-line, I said console. 15:32:21 well yeah, I use "console" and "command-line" to mean the same thing, though I guess technically they're not. 15:33:13 I don't know. It just seems like the DOM has a lot of visual elements that you couldn't really support (/well/, at least) on a console display. 15:33:24 they aren't the same thing, but they're usually used together 15:33:33 in this case, though, it does make a difference 15:34:11 What *is* a command line, come to think of it? 15:34:25 Or a command-line utility? 15:34:41 One which only inputs and outputs characters in a nice, normal way? 15:34:59 just a shell utility I guess. Are you looking for a formal definition? 15:35:05 I think the intuitive notion is obvious, otherwise. 15:35:24 Yes, I suppose. 15:35:34 GHCi, Python shell, Erlang shell. I would count those as command lines 15:35:48 they could just as easily appear and serve as an Operating System environment when I run sh. 15:35:58 if made to do so. 15:36:17 But what about Emacs or vi? 15:36:23 a command-line utility is one that has a command line 15:36:30 and which uses it as the major method of interaction 15:36:32 thus vi isn't, ed is 15:37:05 OK. 15:37:59 I'm actually more curious to what a "console" technically is. 15:38:51 what seperates it from a window manager? Purely the way in which they structure on-screen elements? 15:40:03 A console is a grid of characters. 15:40:05 AnMaster: Even the universally-reviled movement 2? :P 15:40:42 A GUI works as a grid of pixels. 15:41:06 And a metaGUI is a grid of grids of pixels. 15:42:06 hmmm. interesting. You know I can't say I've ever programmed a GUI 15:42:15 I started trying. 15:42:17 I only have a few years of self-taught programming experience. I've never needed to bother. 15:42:22 I gave up shortly after. 15:42:37 Writing UIs is for masochists. 15:42:45 I might try to make a GUI program of some kind. I'm trying to think of something that wouldn't be too hefty of a project though. 15:42:54 just for practice. 15:43:59 Phantom_Hoover: I'm sure the programming experience depends heavily on the library in use. 15:44:03 I have a horrible suspicion that these days you can learn to program without going anywhere near a console. 15:44:44 Phantom_Hoover: You are correct. My friend, who is a freshman CS major and just starting to learn C# as his first language... has only ever touched a console because we use version control for one of our projects. 15:44:56 but before that he had not touched one. Did everything in Visual Studio 15:45:06 Bleurgh. 15:45:26 -shrug- It's not evil. There's just more tools in graphical environments these days. 15:45:46 I think at some point you have to become at least semi-comfortable with a command line 15:45:55 I'm not an expert. But I can do some basic things. 15:46:15 one thing I haven't figured out is xarg. It looks very cool but I never get around to learning how it works. 15:46:33 *xargs 15:46:42 man xargs? 15:46:58 Just did out of curiousity. Kind of busy studying though, so I'll probably read later. 15:47:20 IIRC it reads lines from stdin, tacks them onto the first non-option argument, then executes the result. 15:47:53 ah. well that's simple enough. Is there no inline substition mechanism like a printf string? 15:47:54 So find ~ | xargs shred will overwrite every file in your home directory with random junk. 15:47:57 That would be nice. 15:48:13 There are more complex things, but that's the basic idea. 15:48:41 alright. That sounds useful at least. I bet you could condense a pretty large-scale sysadmin operation down to one line with xargs 15:52:44 you can't put megabytes of stuff on the command line 15:52:58 xargs will split a line up for you automatically if it wouldn't all fit 15:53:13 "megabytes of stuff" as in the text of the actual command or the data being processed? 15:53:19 the text of the command 15:53:26 can easily happen in some cases where you'd want to use xargs 15:53:28 ah. well yeah. It'd be unwieldy too. 15:53:48 at the point it's likely wise to switch to a script. 15:53:53 `ls | xargs echo 15:53:59 wait, hackego isn't here 15:54:05 can you see what that would do, though 15:54:17 Gregor, what happened to HackEgo? 15:54:34 AnMaster: Even the universally-reviled movement 2? :P <-- hm? 15:54:49 Gregor, I liked the second movement preview yes 15:54:50 You can put only four kilobytes into exec's arguments safely in a POSIX system (POSIX_ARG_MAX == 4096), though many allow more. 15:55:02 the trick with xargs echo is that it replaces all newlines by spaces 15:55:16 Gregor, perhaps the ending of it need some work. Very sudden 15:55:22 of course that could be used as an effect 15:55:25 -!- HackEgo has joined. 15:55:25 -!- EgoBot has joined. 15:55:33 AnMaster: The ending was simply that I haven't written any more yet :P 15:55:50 I have a whole minor section in that part, then back to the major theme, but I haven't written it all. 15:56:05 Gregor, ah, it could be intentional, hard to tell 15:56:25 Gregor, much better than the op11 previews btw 15:56:43 I thought there wasn't an op11. 15:56:51 Phantom_Hoover: There wasn't an op12. 15:57:02 AnMaster: The Op. 11 previews I ended up changing almost everything between the last preview and what I decided was "done" :P 15:57:02 According to "getconf ARG_MAX", my system lets you put two megabytes of stuff in. 15:57:33 Gregor, I didn't listen to all. Just the last string version 15:57:44 Gregor, couldn't tell which was the current version 15:57:47 OH 15:58:02 The String Quartet WIPPs are bad :P 15:58:03 Wait, LINE_MAX is 2048. 15:58:32 Gregor, hm haven't listened to final op11 recently 15:58:34 * AnMaster does so 15:59:11 I'm thinkin' of calling Opus 13 "Three Works in Three", since all three movements ended up being in three due to having been split from one overenthusiastic work originally. The subparts could be "Scherzo in Three", "Nocturne in Three" and "Finale in Three" 15:59:31 Although having a nocturne in the middle of a work is kinda weird I guess ... 15:59:42 Gregor, too much disharmonious in op11 for my taste. It is technically good, just not my taste 16:00:12 does anyone use Rhythmbox? Know how to set it up so it doesn't do all that "start-up silently as a notification icon thing (dunno the technical term for it)" 16:00:17 -!- relet has joined. 16:00:23 What would be the "starting in the system tray" in Windows-speak. 16:00:26 -!- tab-complete has changed nick to ais523. 16:00:26 -the 16:01:16 "Taskbar notification area", actually. 16:01:29 Gregor, btw you write that you aren't going to use zee3 for the game. But what about zee1? I can't imagine that one fitting either 16:01:53 Gregor, oh btw, how is the game zee coming along? it is such a cool idea I hope the answer is "very nicely" 16:02:12 Gregor, is there anything playable yet? 16:02:24 The answer is "eternally stalled argh getting storylines is annoying". But as of yesterday I have an idea for a storyline, which I can get photos of and maybe have something playable in two-three weeks. 16:02:28 I mean, even if buggy and only half complete. Some screenshots perhaps? 16:02:40 Gregor, wasn't it a maze game it said? 16:02:44 ais523, what's this feather thing I've heard about? 16:02:53 seriously, don't ask 16:02:57 AnMaster: Sort of ... it's a "maze" of images. 16:03:19 AnMaster: It doesn't really fit any category of games, so I'm calling it an "image-based maze game" because that's the closest I can get :P 16:03:37 Gregor, okay. Any mockup images or anything? I mean, just to see what you mean 16:03:41 sketches or such perhaps 16:04:33 Gregor: sounds like a puzzle game to me, genre-wize 16:04:35 *genre-wise 16:04:39 AnMaster: http://codu.org/projects/zee/test/zee.html 16:04:40 it's quite a varied genre 16:04:48 ais523: Yeah, it's broadly within the genre "puzzle games" no doubt. 16:05:10 AnMaster: That's just a test of the zooming features, mind you. 16:05:13 Gregor, does it need the plugin? I don't have flash. and won't install it either 16:05:23 Only needs that to play music online. 16:05:29 Which is pointless, so feel free to ignore it. 16:05:50 Gregor, ah high res image behind it 16:05:50 nice 16:05:51 ais523, is it one of the things Man Was Not Meant To Kno. 16:06:10 hm with an accurate lens model and accurate positioning and orientation info of camera you should be able to reconstruct a 3D model with enough photos from different locations 16:06:10 thinking about it drives me insane, so possibly 16:06:26 AnMaster: ... yeaaaaaaaaaaaaah. 16:06:50 AnMaster: Good thing I have exactly zero need or desire to do that. 16:06:50 and I've got sufficiently good at not thinking about it that I can't even give a remotely accurate description without concentrating 16:06:55 but it's an esolang, anyway 16:06:56 ais523, what *is* it? 16:06:58 Gregor, no it was just general musing :P 16:07:09 Loosely? 16:07:12 one that isn't speccedyet 16:07:14 *specced yet 16:07:18 but it involves retroactive changes 16:07:29 Gregor, would be nice to see the extrapolate thingy 16:07:46 Gregor, also I hit a bug in the software. It is impossible to enhance infinitely ;) 16:07:50 -!- coppro has joined. 16:07:59 AnMaster: SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF. 16:08:18 AnMaster: I have some code for extrapolation, but it's really just "push on this square when at least at zoom level X, get a new photo" 16:08:24 Gregor, I don't believe in that *runs* 16:08:54 ais523, if you write a spec, any updates will have to have lower version numbers and dates to the first version 16:09:15 I like that idea 16:09:17 Gregor, anyway with rendering a 3D model you could do the infinite zoom stuff. 16:09:21 actually, every version should have the same date 16:09:46 AnMaster: You are not the first person to suggest it. It's amazing how I make a game idea that's just BARELY accomplishable, so people say "you should do this utterly unaccomplishable thing instead" 16:10:18 Gregor, no I suggest that will be easier 16:10:31 Gregor, depends on how good you are at 3D modelling and such of course 16:11:19 AnMaster: Do you want to make a 3D model that's A) photorealistic and B) sufficiently detailed that you can zoom up to just short of looking at the atoms? 16:11:40 -!- cpressey has joined. 16:11:46 Gregor, okay better and easy suggestion: There should be a way to pan without having to reset. I just missed something at the edge of the image and now there is no possible way to pan to it 16:12:14 Gregor, it seems impossible to zoom on stuff near the edge anyway it ends up a bit inwards 16:12:21 I agree. I will add it to my TODO list. 16:12:35 or at least rather tricky to do that 16:12:45 It always zooms such that wherever your cursor is remains the same, so you would have to click the very rightmost pixel to zoom on the very rightmost edge. 16:13:00 Gregor, yep, somewhat tricky 16:13:02 ais523, so it's like TwoDucks? 16:13:12 vaguely, but a lot better 16:13:24 Gregor, this thing is 114 dpi, so very tricky 16:13:26 for one thing, it isn't uncomputable, so in theory you can implement it 16:13:34 Now with More Ducks™ 16:13:37 in practice, though, I go mad when I try 16:14:05 How, approximately, does it work? 16:14:09 AnMaster: Part of that is just "don't put clues at the edge of the photo", the other part is panning, I don't think there's some more intelligent method of zooming. 16:14:25 Gregor, true 16:14:52 Gregor, what will the goal be? finding a certain image? solving a crime with clues from the images? 16:15:08 AnMaster: Solve a crime by finding clues (or catching the perpetrator red-handed) within the image. 16:16:32 Gregor, hm needs higher res images. There is some small yellow thing on the back of one of the road signs. Can't zoom in to see what it is 16:16:40 ;) 16:16:45 SUSPENSION 16:16:45 OF 16:16:48 DISBELIEF 16:17:03 Gregor, no no. I meant You need very high res pictures for the "real" version 16:17:07 rather than just this test 16:17:28 ais523: You just have to visualize it from the 5th dimension, is all... 16:17:41 AnMaster: That picutre is about as high-res as we can realistically expect to get. 16:17:41 Actually I don't know what you were talking about, and I assumed Feather. 16:17:49 cpressey: suprisingly that isn't the hard part 16:17:54 It's something like 12MP 16:18:01 Gregor, idea: you can use multiple images. Like one taken while zoomed out. Then zoom in with the optical zoom to take images of the different parts. 16:18:06 anyway, Feather's going to get a worse reputation than MAGENTA at this rate 16:18:09 so you can switch between them as needed 16:18:16 ais523, MAGENTA? 16:18:19 never heard of it 16:18:23 AnMaster: That picture is a stitching of a bunch of images zoomed maximally on my camera, and does exactly that. 16:18:24 AnMaster: an allegedly cursed esolang 16:18:24 anyway should make food 16:18:32 I don't know if the wiki has an article about it 16:18:34 but it isn't mine 16:18:34 Gregor, oh 16:18:38 MAGENTA, not Magenta? 16:18:42 Now I need to restart my computer or the BotNet's gonna get me, sez Microsoft. 16:18:43 AnMaster: If I had better zoom, I could zoom farther I suppose, and take a crapload of pictures :P 16:18:50 -!- cpressey has left (?). 16:18:50 I recall a Magenta that matches the description but I don't think it was all-caps 16:18:52 Deewiant: not sure if it's in allcaps 16:19:05 Doesn't seem to be: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Magenta 16:19:11 Gregor, hm I didn't see any stitches 16:19:27 anyway, Magenta has pretty much opposite design goals from INTERCAL, and ends up looking rather similar as a result 16:19:30 Gregor, so no parallax I guess 16:19:33 AnMaster: There's one or two places where it misstitched and is noticeable, otherwise it did a pretty good job. 16:19:42 Gregor, hugin I presume? 16:19:46 Yup 16:19:57 Damn, I *hate* Geocities. 16:20:07 So much esolang stuff was on it. 16:20:11 Gregor, idea: you know about enfuse right? 16:20:22 Gregor, so have a "magic" denoise button as well 16:20:25 would fit the theme 16:20:53 Gregor, enfuse can average multiple pictures to reduce noise. You would need a tripod however 16:21:12 since parallax there would give you weird stuff 16:21:14 I have a tripod. I didn't realize enfuse could do that, but that's pretty much awesome. 16:21:56 What are you talking about now? 16:21:57 Gregor, in *theory* you could rotate the camera half a pixel or such and then actually interpolate a higher res. IIRC they do that kind of stuff in telescopes and such 16:22:12 Gregor, probably not feasible with normal camera and such though 16:22:28 Not so much :P 16:22:33 What I really need is an autotripod. 16:22:39 Gregor, hm? 16:22:41 That would just do all the rotations and snap pictures for me. 16:22:45 Not that such a thing exists :P 16:22:48 Gregor, oh I built on in lego 16:22:57 Gregor, based on this idea: http://www.philohome.com/panobot2/panobot2.htm 16:22:57 Awesome, ship it. 16:23:01 Gregor, doesn't do up/down 16:23:06 Well foo! 16:23:09 Gregor, also it is very limited to my camera 16:23:20 :P 16:23:22 -!- cpressey has joined. 16:23:36 How high-quality is your camera? MP and optical zoom level? 16:23:43 Enfuse's averaging is very nice for us people with a compact digicam with a tiny, horribly noisy sensor. 16:24:03 Gregor, 9 MP. 28-200 optical zoom in 35 mm equiv. RAW files are 12 bits / channel 16:24:21 Well, YOU'RE definitely taking photos for ZEE :P 16:24:24 Gregor, Minolta Dimage A2 16:24:34 Gregor, a rather old "segment below DSLR" camera 16:24:45 Gregor, oh and it has noise issues. Plus a few dead pixels 16:24:53 showing it's age 16:25:03 I have this Lumix DMC-FZ8 cam from approximately the same category, but no lego tripod-bot. 16:25:16 the noise stuff have only started getting noticeable the last 2 years or such 16:25:20 Without a lego tripod-bot, how do you even live with yourself? 16:25:26 Gregor, anyway my lego thing needs a sturdy table 16:25:32 it does not mount on my tripod, too heavy 16:25:50 I have yet to come up with a working solution for that 16:26:25 Possibly a hundred-kilogram tripod? A joy to move around! 16:26:32 Gregor, here is a self-enhancing image of the lego thingy: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/panobot/panobot_1433.jpg 16:26:37 that is, progressive jpeg 16:27:39 fizzie, I have a ball head tripod. 16:28:02 fizzie, but the screw hole on the camera is not centered in any direction relative the no-parallax point 16:28:21 way right of lens and way too far back 16:28:38 Gregor, fizzie: tell me if that image loads 16:28:44 if not I'm going to upload it elsewhere 16:28:48 Just use four tripods like that and build a table surface that you can mount on such at every corner. 16:28:50 E_WORKSFORME 16:28:57 Gregor, hm 16:29:01 AnMaster, what does it do other than rotate? 16:29:18 Phantom_Hoover, push the trigger using pneumatics 16:29:36 and of course it use a rotation sensor to space the photos roughly equally 16:29:37 I didn't quite wait for the whole image, but it did seem to be loading. (Am on a phone again.) 16:29:40 OK, that's pretty cool. 16:30:10 Gregor, anyway if I take photos it is you who is going to stitch. My computers are no longer up to the task 16:30:13 :P 16:30:22 Fair enough 16:30:30 Gregor, you will get 93 MB tiff even with only 8 bits per channel 16:30:33 AnMaster: Next, extended exposure-bracketing using a lot of twiddling with the camera's control buttons. 16:30:43 for a least zoom 360° pano 16:31:15 fizzie, actually it is a wheel. And I did consider turning that. However I think I'm almost out of lego after that thing 16:31:21 considering how sturdy it is internally 16:32:12 Gregor, anyway, let me find link to panoramas I uploaded. Do you want to zoomed to 30% variant or the full zoom? 16:32:29 I want to go to work :P 16:32:32 Baheeee :P 16:32:36 ah 16:32:36 cya 16:33:11 I used to have this very old Canon two-megapixels-or-a-bit-less eats-AA-batteries-like-an-electric-horse camera, which was otherwise utterly unremarkable, except that if you plugged the USB cable in, gphoto2 could remote-control it partially (and the proprietary windows app could even change the image-taking settings). 16:33:12 Gregor, full res: http://omploader.org/vNHAyNw scaled to 30%: http://omploader.org/vNGx0Mw 16:33:41 fizzie, mine supports that by "costs extra" windows app 16:33:42 iirc 16:33:55 fizzie, oh and there is a 4 pin connector for remote trigger as well 16:34:15 no clue what the different pins do 16:34:28 Heh, that's even worse. At least if the app is free, you can always usbdump it and reverse-engineer. 16:35:06 fizzie, there was some app on linux for an older model of the same series but apparently the protocol is completely different for the new model 16:36:50 This new one only does USB-storage and then that printer-pictbridge-whatever. The boring. 16:37:58 fizzie, there is another strange thing, they ship an extra iron core that you are instructed to put on the usb cable if you use the remote control feature 16:38:16 as in, you don't need it for just the usb storage feature I guess 16:38:37 makes no sense to me 16:38:58 Uh, curious. 16:39:51 AnMaster: is that one of those iron rings that you clip around a cable? 16:40:04 they're designed to dampen high-frequency interference 16:40:10 Maybe the remote-control protocol has a self-destruct command and they don't want interference accidentally triggering it. 16:40:17 ais523, yes 16:40:18 This sounds like audio woo. 16:40:29 Like those $500 cables on Amazon. 16:40:34 which is only caused by high-frequency circuits; I can imagine that a remote control circuit is high-frequency but nothing else on there is 16:40:35 But it might work in this case. 16:40:44 fizzie, hm actually you are supposed to put it on remote trigger cable if you buy that extra instead 16:40:51 Phantom_Hoover: oh, they are needed, they prevent high-frequency noise reducing your bandwidth 16:41:00 but a fair price for those things is a few pennies, or cents 16:41:17 But the remote uses IR doesn't it? 16:41:24 Phantom_Hoover, on a camera? no 16:41:33 Ah, radio? 16:41:37 Phantom_Hoover, please read the whole bit instead 16:41:40 *faceplam* 16:41:48 palm* 16:42:10 It's a cable. It's not wireless at all. 16:42:14 Ohh. 16:42:23 There are IR-remotable cameras, though. 16:42:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:42:44 There's a N900 app to control some of them. 16:42:48 fizzie, that is a bad idea though, Since CCDs pick up IR. Just aim a remote at your mobile camera and check 16:43:31 fizzie, it would thus interfere with the image taking 16:44:20 at least in theory 16:44:23 You can put a IR filter in if you want, perhaps. 16:45:00 fizzie, they tend to reduce image quality in the visible spectrum as well to some degree iirc? 16:45:47 Not sure about quality (noticeably), but light levels in general at least. 16:52:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:52:51 oerjan! 16:53:22 Phantom_Hoover" 16:53:28 I do like the pretty large zoom in the FZ8; it's 36-432mm in 35mm-equiv terms, and doesn't have any especial problems at the far end. A full-sphere panorama from that would have very many pixels indeed, though as a mortal I couldn't imagine taking one manually. 16:53:58 oerjan, given up completely? 16:54:12 Damn, there's no way to play on "oerjan". 16:54:48 Phantom_Hoover: you know i'm not very fond of people who won't even let me _give up_ peacefully 16:54:59 OK. 16:55:19 It was fun while it lasted. 16:55:21 "What's that amulet doing there at the end?" was my first thought after seeing oerjan's greeting. 16:56:00 Too much Nethack? 16:56:30 I haven't played any in months; I guess it was just some sort of flashback. 16:56:36 Syntax error, line 553: Mismatched amulet. 16:56:45 No, wait. 16:56:48 Missing closing amulet. 16:56:58 Mismatched ARMOR. 16:57:07 Hey, let's make that into a language! 16:57:14 Somehow! 17:01:39 -!- tombom has joined. 17:03:30 huh, "foo bar" -> "foo foo"; "foobar" -> "foobfo" 17:03:34 I wonder what is going on here 17:04:37 this thing is supposed to echo back the thins you send. Not echo back some garbage 17:05:24 Overwriting with "foo" (or the string itself) starting from index 4? 17:05:48 fizzie, well not as easy. Sometimes it seems to be from index 5 17:05:48 But not changing the length. 17:05:51 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:05:53 Heh. 17:06:01 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:06:13 fizzie, and sometimes it changes the length too 17:06:47 fizzie, okay now it just did tetetetet for "test test test" 17:07:10 fizzie, at least it seems to do the same thing every time for a given string 17:08:46 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 17:09:35 fizzie, valgrind on the app finds nothing :/ 17:10:31 Phantom_Hoover: As a bonus, "mismatched armor" sounds like a medieval fashion faux pas. 17:10:35 hm 17:10:53 So it's a perfectly valid algorithm, just not the same you'd want it to be. 17:10:55 fizzie, I'm not sure if it is the usb ir towering failing to echo correctly or something in the software 17:11:01 or it could be in the kernel driver 17:11:41 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:11:51 cpressey, so invalid backslash escapes would generate "A %c can't stand next to a throne!" 17:12:03 Phantom_Hoover: that seems a very nethackish error message 17:12:07 If it really does always the same thing for the same string, it's probably not random hardware failure. Could be deterministic hardware issue, of course. 17:12:55 Screen already has those nethacky error messages, they're occasionally amusing too. 17:13:28 Oh, really? 17:13:31 Example? 17:14:39 I'm trying to think of something erroneous here. 17:16:06 Woof!! 17:16:43 http://zem.fi/~fis/nethack.txt has the full list. 17:17:14 Oh, those. 17:17:32 First is the original message, second the translation, in the nethacktrans array. 17:18:32 Hmm, what about mismatched {}? 17:19:00 Well, erroneous }s are easy. 17:19:24 "You fall into a pool of water! You sink. You drown..." 17:20:01 (Note: I have never lived for long enough in Nethack to die from drowning.) 17:20:19 Hence the probable inaccuracy of this message. 17:20:49 You don't need to live long; just drink from a fountain until it results in a sufficiently well placed pool of water 17:20:50 {"Aborted because of window size change.", "KAABLAMM!!! You triggered a land mine!"}, 17:21:00 That one's a bit arbitrary. 17:21:19 It makes sense if you increased the window size 17:21:24 Not so much for a decrease 17:24:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:24:38 ...I wonder if you can prove that circular reasoning can be logically valid. 17:24:42 I mean... look at recursion. 17:24:55 Is that circular reasoning? 17:25:09 ...not that I can tell. There is no reasoning yet. Merely a proposition. 17:25:19 Recursion isn't circular unless it's infinite 17:25:26 well, right. 17:25:38 I was just reading Descartes foundationalism stuff 17:25:43 which seems based on a circular premise. 17:26:26 there is some strange macro _IOW on linux. I can't find the docs for it 17:26:29 ioctl related 17:26:29 so... perhaps if there is a condition somewhere, it could be proved that the circularity of the reasoning is defensible because it rests on a non-circular termination condition. 17:26:31 that much I know 17:26:43 but it's merely a thought. I haven't taken any real effort to find this condition. 17:26:52 man ioctl doesn't have it 17:27:07 Google does. 17:27:09 A quick Googling gives http://h30097.www3.hp.com/docs/dev_doc/DOCUMENTATION/HTML/DDK_R2/DOCS/HTML/MAN/MAN9/0029___R.HTM 17:27:17 -!- cal153 has joined. 17:27:24 Unless you have moral objections to Googling. 17:27:52 Phantom_Hoover, that is tru64 17:27:53 not linux 17:28:16 It's in the headers, though; I've seen it. 17:28:18 AnMaster, it's a clue. 17:28:32 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 17:28:38 HEY GUYS LIEK WOOH 17:28:56 What do you need the macro for, though? 17:28:57 Phantom_Hoover, yes but it's usage doesn't match what is documented there 17:29:06 fizzie, to debug this faulty code using it 17:29:13 Bleurgh, nested macros. 17:29:24 I don't have the strength to track it down. 17:29:29 fizzie, some other options to valgrind revealed an valgrind error on a line containing that 17:29:43 ioctl(tty->fd, _IOW('u', 0xc8, int), timeout); 17:30:02 tty->fd is a char device, not a tty though confusingly 17:30:06 asm-generic/ioctl.h 17:30:16 It's a bit complex though. 17:30:19 /* used to create numbers */ 17:30:26 is all the docs in my copy of that file 17:30:54 Sounds like enough docs for anybody. 17:30:58 -_- 17:31:12 Basically it's an or of the involved numbers, some bitshifts, and sizeof the type involved too. 17:31:27 CakeProphet: The great thing about circular reasoning is that it's circular. 17:32:05 I don't think it should involve any memory references or anything, it just combines those arguments into a number. 17:32:25 -!- cpressey1 has joined. 17:32:25 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:32:38 fizzie, Address 0xfa is not stack'd, malloc'd or (recently) free'd is the error. But it doesn't seem to be passed anywhere 17:32:48 oh wait 17:32:53 that is the parameter. Which is an integer 17:32:56 not a pointer 17:32:57 wtf 17:33:24 Yes, _IOW yields a ioctl-related id-y number, not a pointer. 17:33:36 Something must be confused there. 17:33:43 fizzie, yes it is the timeout that equals to 0xfa 17:33:59 Ah. 17:34:15 But you're usually supposed to pass in a pointer to a value. 17:34:23 There's something unwholesome about telling VMWare and VirtualBox what the guest OS is. 17:34:30 -!- cpressey1 has changed nick to cpressey. 17:34:39 &timeout in your case. 17:34:54 cpressey, AFAIK it just affects the default settings on VirtualBox. 17:34:59 fizzie, should it be hm? 17:35:16 Well, it depends on the ioctl really. 17:35:29 fizzie, well what is the ioctl _IOW('u', 0xc8, int) I wonder 17:35:47 fizzie, it has the value 0x400475C8 according to gdb 17:35:58 but hm 17:36:02 Bye, everybody! 17:36:08 The 0xc8'th ioctl in group 'u' that will take an int-sized argument. 17:36:26 fizzie, I can't find docs for this driver in fact 17:36:29 not as man page at least 17:36:43 I do believe it's possible to make a ioctl-handling driver that will treat the third argument as a raw value. 17:37:05 But usually it is an address, in that case pointing to an int. 17:37:36 It could be just that valgrind assumes the third parameter is always an address. 17:38:05 (While your screwy driver perhaps doesn't treat it as one.) 17:38:23 -!- hiato has joined. 17:38:36 My ioctl man page does say: 17:38:39 The second argument is a device-dependent request code. The third argument is an untyped 17:38:42 pointer to memory. It's traditionally char *argp (from the days before void * was valid 17:38:45 C), and will be so named for this discussion. 17:39:24 But I guess nothing should prevent the driver from treating the value of the address as an integer to pass. 17:39:36 It's not good behaviour though. 17:40:22 (It might also be impossible in some systems, if the kernel handles copying the request-sized memory block from userland to the driver.) 17:40:26 fizzie, hm perhaps 17:40:32 I'm checking the driver source atm 17:40:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:41:19 &timeout would probably quiet down valgrind, but perhaps you have a special case(tm) there. 17:41:48 fizzie, how does one find it in the driver I wonder 17:42:05 I mean I can't fix 0xc8 or 0x400475C8 in there 17:42:33 and the only timeout I can find is a module parameter 17:42:37 Not sure about that; I haven't done much driver-fiddling. One would think 0xc8 would be there somewhere. 17:42:54 Possibly in some include file though. 17:43:18 Is this a mainline kernel driver, or something stranger? 17:43:35 fizzie, mainline 17:43:38 drivers/usb/misc/legousbtower.c in case 17:43:42 in this case* 17:44:21 fizzie, any help to figure out ioctls would be helpful 17:44:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:44:30 err yeah tautology club next 17:44:34 but you know what I mean 17:44:46 pikhq, hi 17:44:58 Yo. 17:46:11 AnMaster: " * - added ioctl functionality to set timeouts" in the changelog commentary, that's probably it. Can't say I know where it's defined, though; it should be in the struct file_operations tower_fops, as a ioctl member. That'd be the logical place. 17:46:52 2003 hm 17:46:54 pikhq: Moo 17:47:05 fizzie, I think that may be from before mainlining 17:47:10 root 17:48:20 Perhaps they removed the ioctl at some point (or replaced it with a sysfs node or something) and didn't bother to update that changelog, or the source code you have there. 17:48:28 (Unless the code's from a different source.) 17:48:34 fizzie, yes I checked against last 2.4 variant 17:48:37 -!- hiato has changed nick to sixhoustennis. 17:48:43 -!- sixhoustennis has changed nick to sixhourtennis. 17:48:46 it has ioctl stuff in the fops thingy 17:49:21 It's even possible that the timeouts it's talking about are those which are now only available as module parameters. 17:50:02 fizzie, which makes no sense 17:51:17 It is a bit awkward, since you can only change them at load-time, because of that 0 there. (Otherwise there'd be a sysfs node for it.) 17:52:04 It's also a bit strange that they haven't made those sysfs-changeable, because the driver code looks like it'd work just fine even if the timeouts are changed without notifying the module, like they are if you sysfs-export them. 17:52:58 fizzie, which zero? 17:53:18 The third parameter of module_param(). 17:53:22 // LegoUSB doesn't work with select(), so just set a read 17:53:22 // timeout and then later check to see if the read timed out 17:53:22 // without reading data. 17:53:23 hm 17:53:37 however there is a mention of implementing poll there 17:53:46 I wonder if I could switch to the code for the serial tower 17:54:01 It's a usual permissions-mask, and if you put a non-zero value there, the kernel will automagically export that parameter via sysfs and make it modifiable. 17:54:21 hm 17:54:35 Was that comment from your non-working source code? 17:55:27 I guess so; I don't think there's // comments in the driver. 17:55:35 fizzie, indeed 17:55:53 In that case it's possible that it should be updated to use non-blocking IO with a timeout. It looks as if the current driver should support that. 17:56:03 fizzie, dead upstream mostly 17:56:11 fizzie, so yeah, I have some local patches to this 17:56:27 Well, like the read_timeout module_param says: "Some legacy software expects blocking reads to time out." Yours is one of them, apparently. 17:56:48 fizzie, yes but it wants to set it's own time out! 17:56:57 It seems to have read_timeout enabled by default (at 200 ms), so if that value is okay for the code, you could possibly just throw out the ioctl. 17:57:15 fizzie, it wants 250 ms 17:57:18 in this case 17:57:22 sometimes other values 17:57:52 AnMaster: VMWare has wronged me one too many times, so I'm trying VirtualBox. Thought you might be interested to know, since you mentioned it to me. 17:58:32 mhm 17:58:58 Gregor-W, hm? "* [Gregor-W] (836b416f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.107.65.111): proton.research.microsoft.com/131.107.65.111 - htt" 17:59:01 what? 17:59:09 microsoft? 17:59:17 Muahahahaha 17:59:20 AnMaster: Heh. Well, if you want the code to be able to use those timeouts it specifies, you can also patch the kernel, and replace the ioctl with a sysfs write. 17:59:51 Gregor's a microsoftean spy on the esoteric language marketplace, huh?! 18:00:12 fizzie, well. I'm probably going to try to replace the code with select() since that is available for the serial tower code 18:00:33 Gregor-W, btw those panos: Gregor, full res: http://omploader.org/vNHAyNw scaled to 30%: http://omploader.org/vNGx0Mw 18:00:42 Gregor-W, would probably crash IE though :P 18:00:52 Everything crashes IE *shrugs* 18:01:03 Gregor-W, yeah the full res one is a 12 MB jpg 18:01:07 progressive 18:01:57 360-degree panoramas are always weird lookin' :P 18:02:26 Not if you look at them with a real panorama-viewer that does projection-correction to the "usual" way (and only shows a tiny region of it, of course). 18:02:41 Really the "tiny region of it" part is the whole fix :P 18:03:12 There's more than just cropping a rectangular region out of it. 18:03:50 Or rather, with proper projection mangling you can crop a larger region of the panorama out and have it still look "normal" than if you just crop. 18:04:19 AnMaster: Incidentally, was there a photo of your actual lego construction anywhere? 18:07:00 Gregor-W: back in the days of IE4, I wrote a webpage which was just a frameset, with each of the frames the webpage itself 18:07:12 if you tried to open it in IE4, it not only crashed the browser, but also took out the Start toolbar 18:07:16 with no obvious way to get it back 18:07:50 even more fun, it popped up a dialog box "internet explorer is using a lot of memory, do you want to terminate it?" but the same thing happened whether you pressed yes or no 18:08:31 Doesn't killing the explorer.exe proecess (or whatever the name was) usually fix missing desktop components. 18:08:34 fizzie, well it seems to work 18:09:02 fizzie, yes a few. Site may be slow: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/panobot/ 18:10:13 fizzie, on NT based systems certainly, less sure about 9x 18:10:32 well sometimes you manually have to start it againm 18:10:34 again* 18:10:36 fizzie: in NT-based systems, it respawns 18:10:43 in 9x, it doesn't; the solution would be to /run/ explorer.exe 18:10:47 ais523, didn't always under XP for me 18:10:54 but you'd better hope you have a widget on what's left of the desktop to let you run it 18:10:55 I sometimes had to run it manually even on XP 18:11:14 win+r worked 18:11:32 ais523, oh wait, 9x didn't have process manager did it? 18:12:10 not connected to control-alt-del, IIRC 18:12:13 There was some sort of task manager. I can't recall whether it could run things or not. 18:12:35 And it didn't always appear at all. 18:13:50 ais523, I assume you will love this crazy indention for "one level": one tab + one space 18:13:52 quite wtf 18:13:57 yep, I love it 18:14:13 for two levels, is it tab tab space space, or tab space tab space? 18:14:46 ais523, it's tab tab 18:14:47 no space 18:15:02 sounds like a typo when making the function 18:15:08 it's pretty easy to indent to tab+space by mistake 18:15:11 ais523, it is consistent in the entire file 18:15:13 and then the editor preserves your indentation 18:15:23 ais523, and some other files 18:15:28 not all other files, but several 18:15:33 If I recall correctly, ctrl-alt-del on 9x spawned the task manager directly, not the lock-screen/task-manager/etc. menu of NT. Though sometimes it just spawned the "system is busy" bluescreen, from which you could theoretically resume waiting or reboot. Not that those options always worked either. 18:15:52 fizzie, wasn't the task manager very limited on 9x? 18:15:59 I mean, no load tab or such 18:16:04 fizzie: no, ctrl-alt-del on 95 (at least) picked an application using various heuristics, and asked you whether you wanted to kill it or not 18:16:20 ais523, no it showed a box to select which one iirc 18:16:26 that was 98 18:16:26 or was that 98? 18:16:29 heh 18:17:02 The 98 app-killer box is probably the "task manager" I remember. I doubt it had "run" options. 18:17:53 I should have some VMs to test these things on, wouldn't have to rely on fallible memory. 18:18:36 bbiab 18:20:23 According to Wikipedia: 18:20:27 Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows Me, temporarily halts the entire system, and presents a window which lists currently running processes, and can be used to notify them that they should end, or, when they don't respond, kill them. The user can press Control-Alt-Delete again to perform a soft reboot. 18:20:57 And it's win 3.1 which asks you if you want to kill the "current" task. 18:22:16 There's also the is-busy screen I remembered: "In Windows 9x, pressing the combination a second time if the process listing has not appeared will display a blue screen from which the user can reboot the system by pressing the combination a third time; other times the system restarts on the second Ctrl-Alt-Delete combination." 18:22:40 fizzie: ah, wow I'm showing my age :) 18:26:23 It sure is good to have an encyclopedia which knows in extreme detail what happens on the three-finger salute on various Win versions. (For XP, it matter whether the computer is part of a domain and whether the welcome screen is enabled.) 18:32:24 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:46:34 -!- relet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:47:33 -!- relet has joined. 18:57:42 fizzie, ais523: I remember pre-OSX doing the "guessing process" bit as well 18:58:19 fizzie, iirc it usually failed to restart with ctrl-alt-del 19:03:56 Hmn, I think I've had a fair amount of success restarting with command-control-powerbutton. The "force-quit" key (command-option-esc, was it?) wasn't always so lucky. 19:06:02 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:08:07 Also for some reason I have the phrase "komento-optio-omena" (lit. "command-option-apple") stuck in my head, even though it makes no sense, since the command key *is* the apple key. 19:08:47 http://omploader.org/vNHE3dQ 19:09:01 Sometimes peoples' grammar just confuse me. 19:09:17 *confuseS hyuk hyuk 19:17:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:18:12 -!- cal153 has joined. 19:19:40 So I find I am thinking about a Feather-like language, God help me. 19:20:10 Only thing I have so far is that, at the end of the program, there must be some instructions to create the inital program and send it back in time. 19:22:01 Sort of a self-quine. 19:22:39 cpressey: that happens with Feather too 19:22:44 for much the same reason 19:22:48 only, an infinite number of times 19:23:03 well, it happens n times where n is finite, but any time its value would become relevant, it's retroactively increased 19:23:08 thus it's effectively infinite 19:25:13 Or, a fixed point, of sorts? 19:25:51 yep, sort-of like that 19:25:51 Although it sounds like nothing's fixed, there... 19:26:04 broken point. 19:26:26 haha 19:27:01 Or do mathematicians call those "fixpoints" to disambiguate them from fixed-point arithmetic? 19:27:13 Cos I know I've seen that term. 19:27:49 -!- augur has joined. 19:27:51 Next I'm going to get into recursive sequences having floating points. Stop me. 19:28:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:29:18 cpressey: quick, do something saner! 19:29:32 Uh... uh... 19:29:49 Installing Ubuntu Server 10.04. 19:29:57 Ah, nice and banal computer usage. 19:30:33 Packages! Partitions! Progress bars! NORMAL. 19:31:28 Actually, we do have a "time travel" feature where I work. 19:31:45 It lets you preview a webpage as if you were viewing it at a given time and date. 19:31:55 Sadly, that's where it ends. 19:33:01 So install AT&T UNIX System V R4 instead! 19:33:35 recursion humor never gets old 19:34:00 i want a tv show with mathematics in it :( 19:35:39 seen what term? 19:36:05 oklopol: "fixpoint", apparently as an abbreviation for "fixed point" 19:36:10 yes, it is 19:36:20 k, thought so, good to know. 19:36:46 Not that anyone uses fixed-point arithmetic these days :) 19:37:17 yeah that's not a very useful term, fixed points are abbreviated not because of that, but because that term is very useful 19:37:23 that that that 19:38:00 well, in the kinds of stuff where you need the term a lot at least :-) 19:38:05 I prefer "fixie"! "This function has a fixie..." 19:38:24 But that collides with a kind of one-speed hipster bicycle which lacks brakes. 19:38:30 you can get almost that short by saying "f fixes x" 19:40:16 Except that f fixes AT x, doesn't it? 19:40:41 no 19:40:42 well 19:40:49 that maybe work too, but nh 19:40:56 *may 19:41:16 (just "f fixes x" has google results) 19:42:10 (not many though) 19:42:52 Not that anyone uses fixed-point arithmetic these days :) <-- um 19:42:53 embedded 19:43:02 cpressey, not everything has FPUs 19:43:19 AnMaster: Smiley indicates I am DEAD SERIOUS. 19:43:29 cpressey, of course! 19:43:30 no one uses fpu's nowadays 19:43:34 oklopol, hah 19:43:39 bignum ratios are the way to go 19:43:46 ..rationals that is 19:44:09 oklopol, ah indeed I was just going to ask about sqrt(2) and such 19:44:21 well who believes in that kind of stuff anyhow 19:44:37 oklopol, in what stuff? square roots? irrational numbers? 19:45:12 i don't believe in complete metric spaces 19:45:52 -!- sixhourtennis has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:46:27 well aren't you going to tell the obvious joke? 19:46:27 hah 19:46:37 oklopol, I don't know the obvious joke 19:46:45 well i'm not sure what the joke would be, exactly 19:47:02 ... 19:47:16 oklopol, I guess it isn't very obvious then 19:47:24 but i mean there are a few rather believable examples of complete metric spaces 19:47:41 oklopol, I can't say I'm familiar with the term at all 19:48:21 -!- hiato has joined. 19:48:23 well then you're in luck because i love talking about completeness 19:48:30 do you know metric spaces? 19:48:43 oklopol, I heard the term 19:48:44 that is all 19:48:58 R is among other things a metric space 19:49:04 this means there's a distance function. 19:49:05 oklopol, or is that like euclidian, manhattan and such? 19:49:07 ah 19:49:08 right 19:49:27 oklopol, so what is a complete such one 19:50:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:50:22 it means cauchy sequences converge 19:50:26 and what that means is 19:51:14 hm? 19:51:21 completeness is basically saying that there are no "holes" in the space, a cauchy sequence is a sequence such that the points in it get closer and closer to all the points in the rest of the sequence 19:51:56 so for any epsilon > 0, there's a n_0 such that for all m, n > n_0, d(x_n, x_m) < epsilon 19:51:57 do you get that? 19:52:18 hehe 19:52:23 hm 19:52:34 i sort of changed what i was about to say midway :D 19:52:42 oklopol, if there is no holes in space it basically mean you will have an uncountable set? 19:52:49 or i mean said two completely different things separated by a comma 19:53:01 oklopol, of course, from an integer's point of view, the integers have no holes ;) 19:53:36 AnMaster: no not necessarily, {0} is complete because the only cauchy sequence is x_i = 0 for all i, and clearly it approaches 0 (this shouldn't make sense to you because i haven't defined completeness yet) 19:53:53 oklopol, this being a degenerate sense of course? 19:53:56 err 19:54:00 s/sense/case/ 19:54:09 oklopol, also is {} complete? 19:54:27 yes i suppose, but i doubt all people would define {} to be a metric space 19:54:34 touche 19:54:56 probably it would lead to having to add clutter in the beginning of proofs 19:54:56 oklopol, yes of course {} is imperial not metric 19:55:08 had to say it oerjan isn't here 19:55:11 LOL funny dude hey so did you get cauchys 19:55:13 true. 19:55:24 hm 19:55:25 maybe 19:55:29 what it says is 19:55:52 if you go far enough in the sequence, there will be no great distances between the rest of the points in the sequence. 19:56:12 -!- Deewiant has joined. 19:56:28 oklopol, how do you make such a sequence then? I mean, if you just take any random number sequence it wouldn't be one of those 19:56:56 no it wouldn't, this is just how we define a cauchy sequence, i haven't said anything about how to interpret it 19:57:43 basically this is a kind of sequence that you can force to be in arbitrarily small place 19:58:09 and completeness just means there will be a point where that sequence "lands" (the sequence converges) 19:58:23 *in an 19:58:35 and now to be a bit more concrete 19:58:35 hm 19:58:55 oklopol, will that point be lim → inf? 19:59:04 I mean 19:59:06 reals can be defined by taking rationals, and adding points so that cauchy sequences converge (although you need some additional stuff or you might get other spaces too) 19:59:18 the position in the sequence of it 19:59:24 well no 19:59:29 err 19:59:31 oh yes 19:59:34 sorry misunderstood 19:59:36 ah 19:59:58 oklopol, so in some sense there is no point where it converges then. Not any finite one at least 20:00:16 finitely far into the sequence I mean 20:00:17 so to be precise, for any cauchy sequence (x_i) there is a point y such that for all e>0 there is an n_0 such that for all n>n_0 d(x_n, y) < e 20:00:40 hm 20:00:56 well the point of completeness is that "there is a point everywhere" 20:01:08 Sounds crowded. 20:01:21 oklopol, and e goes towards zero when x_n goes to inf? 20:01:37 we formalize this by defining cauchy sequences, sequences that gets closer and closer to *something* (because the distances between its elements get smaller), and completeness requires there's a point there 20:01:41 oklopol, wait you said " reals can be defined by taking rationals, and adding points so that cauchy sequences converge (although you need some additional stuff or you might get other spaces too)" 20:01:44 is that true for all reals? 20:01:45 #esoteric is totally overrun with euros. 20:01:50 I should do something about that. 20:01:56 Wow, maths. 20:02:04 oklopol, ? 20:02:05 Gregor, does the UK count as Euro? 20:02:14 Phantom_Hoover: Depends who you ask :P 20:02:22 AnMaster: yes that's one way to define reals 20:02:23 Phantom_Hoover, they don't use EUR 20:02:24 Well, not in the currency sense. 20:02:26 oklopol, even uncomputable ones? 20:02:34 AnMaster, I kind of know that. 20:02:35 sure 20:02:52 Phantom_Hoover: From the perspective of an American, Brits are just euros with funny teeth. 20:02:55 I was asking if Gregor-W included us in "euros". 20:02:59 oklopol, huh, what is the catch then? It sounds like this should be easy to compute even for uncomputable ones then? 20:03:14 Gregor-W, that stereotype is baseless! 20:03:15 AnMaster: e doesn't really go towards zero in what i said, the definition just states "for any e" 20:03:40 Yay! I can build kernel modules! FINALLY. 20:03:46 Phantom_Hoover: What's that? I couldn't understand you spitting through the gaps in your teeth. 20:04:02 oklopol, oh 20:04:03 AnMaster: one cauchy sequence that approaches a real number is the sequence of prefices of its digit expansion 20:04:15 hm 20:04:22 oklopol, prefices? 20:04:30 prefix in plural 20:04:31 Plural of "prefix". 20:04:38 For the pretentious. 20:04:48 3, 3.1, 3.14, 3.141, ... 20:04:48 Extremely pretentious. 20:04:48 heck even aspell doesn't know it 20:04:55 pretentious? 20:04:56 but, that doesn't help here 20:05:01 -!- hiato_ has joined. 20:05:09 AnMaster: That would be because it's not actually a word, it's just a pretention masquerading as a word :P 20:05:11 oklopol, what do you mean with a prefix in a digit expansion? 20:05:16 That's how pretentious it is. 20:05:28 oklopol: OOC, would it be possible to define (well, or at least, describe) such things without sequences? Like, forall A, C where A < C, exists B where A < B < C 20:05:33 there's nothing pretentious about it 20:05:47 that's how x behaves when you add -es, on irc 20:05:54 oklopol, but what do you mean with prefixes in digit expansions? 20:06:31 cpressey: that's a different concept called perfectness :) 20:06:40 wait is it the same thing... 20:06:47 (as perfectness that is) 20:06:57 cpressey: but anyway rationals have that property 20:07:02 yet they are obviously not complete 20:07:14 (approach sqrt(2) for instance) 20:07:23 oklopol: Yes, I see. It's not as strong, is it. 20:07:23 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:07:35 i believe it's just it's different 20:07:40 oklopol, what does such a sequence look like? 20:07:44 oklopol, lets say, the one for pi 20:08:06 see {0, 1} is complete with the metric d(0, 0) = d(1, 1) = 0, otherwise d(x,y)=! 20:08:07 *1 20:08:13 You'd need a distance function to have completeness it seems, you have to show that A and B (or B and C) are really, uh, close. 20:08:28 heh 20:08:29 AnMaster: there are multiple cauchy sequences for it 20:08:37 exactly 7, you should try finding them 20:08:45 (i'm joking, there are uncountably many) 20:08:48 :P 20:09:36 cpressey: describe all you want but usually that just confuses things... :D 20:09:46 oklopol, you didn't fool me. It is obvious that there can be an infinite number of them for any given number if the set you are working in is infinite 20:09:56 yep 20:09:59 and why is that? 20:10:04 (i mean there's a very short proof) 20:10:23 -!- micahjohnston has joined. 20:10:44 oklopol, well I don't have a proof. It just seems obvious from thinking about it. you could just add some more, further away, elements at the start of the sequence 20:10:52 yep 20:10:54 that's the proof 20:10:57 well with the relevant spacing I think 20:11:19 W00T, shared folders! 20:11:23 oklopol, do you have to "home" in on the number so that you have as much left on both sides all the time? 20:11:32 AnMaster: no 20:11:43 oklopol, or can you kind of start with 0,9 and then home in on, say, 8.92 20:11:56 you can add any finite amount of numbers in the beginning. 20:12:26 oklopol, oklopol, but the number must always be between your numbers (every pair of them I mean? 20:12:43 oklopol, or can you start with 0,9 and "home in" on 842 ? 20:12:43 for any e we need n_0 such that ..., assuming a sequence satisfies this, if you add k things in the beginning, always, given e, take n_0+k. 20:13:30 oklopol, why only adding finitely number of elements? 20:13:46 if you add an infinite amount of elements to a sequence, you change it completely 20:14:06 oklopol, couldn't we keep adding new elements at the start forever? Hm wait maybe that is just infinite in potential 20:14:13 probably 20:14:32 we could add elements forever. that means changing the whole sequence :) 20:15:06 for uncountability (in the real case), notice you can add small enough fluctuations to each element of the sequence 20:15:25 (smaller and smaller the farther you get) 20:16:11 AnMaster: as usual with sequences, we do not care at all what happens in the beginning, as long as the correct thing happens once we get far enough 20:18:30 mhm 20:19:37 oklopol, so these sequences must be infinite for irrationals right? 20:19:40 or starts happening, in this case what we want to happen is that we get a ball containing everything in the rest of the sequence (so this is like limits, except the ball is around sequence elements, not a the limit of the sequence) 20:19:49 *-a 20:20:18 wait what? what ball? 20:20:20 arbitrarily small such ball 20:20:23 oh well 20:20:45 the definition of a ball in a metric spaces should be obvious but 20:20:57 B(x, r) = {y | d(x, y) < r} 20:20:58 well assume I'm not a mathematician 20:21:00 (open ball) 20:21:13 so it's just another way to say that an element is close to another 20:21:26 oklopol, maths would be easier if you used names that were longer than one letter 20:21:30 I would call that obfuscated ;P 20:22:04 oklopol, and is that | as in divides? Or yet another variant of the set construction notation? 20:22:14 I seen : and what not for it as well 20:22:48 AnMaster, using multi-character variable names in maths is anathema. 20:23:11 the reason programming benefits from long names is that there are so many of them, in math most things are used a million times so you learn what the character stands for 20:23:18 AnMaster: construction 20:23:22 Phantom_Hoover, for no particular reason 20:23:31 AnMaster, it means the set of all points y such that the distance from a point x to y is less than the radius. 20:23:49 Phantom_Hoover, I can read that once I know what the symbol means in this case 20:23:55 math likes operator overloading 20:23:57 OK. 20:23:58 it seems 20:24:19 Hmm, does maths have types? 20:24:35 there's even "type theory" 20:24:45 I mean, there are obviously fields of it which use them, but does it apply to other fields? 20:24:47 more often you talk about sets, same thing really 20:25:11 Hmm, yes. 20:25:24 math is all about what set the things you're talking about, and that's their "type" 20:25:27 "egg-dist-tmp-o0Mp0o" ... nice temp file name! 20:25:28 {} = the set of all mathematicians using multi-char variable names 20:25:30 There's operator theory, too, isn't there? 20:25:42 probably, i don't know what that is 20:25:45 * cpressey o0Mp0o's down the hall 20:25:48 cpressey, python I presume 20:25:49 AnMaster, that's called Ø IIRC. 20:25:53 Phantom_Hoover, yes 20:26:00 Phantom_Hoover, but I didn't know how to type it 20:26:08 Compose-O-/ 20:26:22 Phantom_Hoover, isn't that Danish ö? 20:26:32 Yes, but they're identical. 20:26:41 yep, Shift-AltGr-ö gives Ø 20:26:53 Phantom_Hoover, not in unicode I presume 20:27:02 It probably is, actually. 20:27:05 or well i guess it's sort of obvious it has to do with operators, but i don't really know what their definition is 20:27:11 * Phantom_Hoover brings up his character map 20:27:24 Phantom_Hoover, nop ∅ 20:27:31 that is the unicode for empty set 20:27:37 (not really the kinds of operators you have in programming) 20:27:39 Phantom_Hoover, in this font it is different 20:27:40 Yeah, but there isn't a compose sequence for it. 20:27:50 And I only try AltGr if I'm desperate. 20:27:57 (whereas type theory is about THOSE kinds of types) 20:28:00 Phantom_Hoover, altgr doesn't have it 20:28:10 altgr have Ø which is danish ö 20:28:11 Incidentally, how do you customise the compose sequences? 20:28:30 Phantom_Hoover, in theory there is a file you can put in ~ with that, never got it to work 20:28:47 Urgh. 20:29:01 I really want compose-p-i to do the obvious thing 20:29:29 Phantom_Hoover, there is a file in /usr/share you could try as well 20:29:35 Phantom_Hoover, probably needs to restart X in between 20:29:59 Which of the 411 entries in /usr/share is it? 20:30:32 i should put an ad on the webs that i want someone to exchange definitions and proofs with, people at the math dep mostly just talk about boring irl stuff :( 20:30:39 it's usually like 20:30:48 -=≡≣ 20:30:53 I love Unicode. 20:31:14 everyone's talking about seminars and shit and i just drift off and suddenly ask someone "so do you know of a generalization of ..." and everyone looks at me like "umm get a life dood" 20:31:28 (that's not true, usually they enjoy answering my questions.) 20:31:41 (but then it's back to boringland) 20:31:53 I got that when I told my fellow mathematics scholars about the Pascal-Sierpinski thing. 20:32:21 ⨌ For the love of god! 20:32:23 luckily i'm currently surrounded by people who know a lot more about everything than i do 20:32:34 so i don't start lecturing 20:32:36 Why on earth would I need a quadruple-integral sign? 20:33:01 My font doesn't even support that one. 20:33:27 (i consider explaining how theorems are proven the greatest form of communication) 20:33:55 Holy !&%@* when did nano start doing syntax colorring??? 20:33:58 oklopol, I don't think I've ever told anyone a proof IRL. 20:34:04 *colouring??? 20:34:10 well unfortunately it's really hard to actually do formal proof in speech 20:34:18 Well, excepting some competitions, where it was marked by someone I never met. 20:34:44 cpressey: nano's done it pretty much forever IIRC, it's pico that doesn't do it 20:34:46 ⩶ Triple equals sign. Where will that possibly be used. 20:34:57 And why can't you just write "==="? 20:35:01 triple equals signs are used for mod 20:35:02 oh 20:35:03 Phantom_Hoover: ≡ is used all over the place in maths 20:35:06 for congruence 20:35:06 that kind of it 20:35:12 No, that's congruence. 20:35:26 I was talking about three consecutive equals signs. 20:35:32 you meant some sort of composite === that i saw as a rectangel 20:35:34 *rectangle 20:35:35 ais523: I must have been running an old version before, then. Also, I never noticed it's called "GNU Nano", now... 20:35:53 cpressey: the syntax highlight library seems to be optional, at least on Ubuntu 20:35:58 I don't have it installed 20:35:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:36:06 so let's talk about feather 20:36:09 -!- augur has joined. 20:36:13 how does it work exactly, again? 20:36:14 â«· is pushing it. It's three nested ais523: Ah. They probably leave it out on TurnKey Linux and every other distro I've used previously. 20:36:20 emphasis on exactly 20:36:22 oklopol: are you just trying to wind me up? 20:36:42 ais523: nono i'm just wondering what the exact details of the language are 20:36:43 ais523, I have no idea how it works, beyond the retroactive alteration 20:36:57 Explain the basics 20:36:59 oklopol: I don't know myself 20:37:00 Holy !&%@* when did nano start doing syntax colorring??? <-- I noticed that recently too 20:37:02 and keep changing my mind 20:37:04 The exact details of the language are subject to retroactive alteration. 20:37:07 cpressey, it only doe one one of my systems 20:37:09 ais523: in other words yes, i suppose 20:37:15 cpressey: good one 20:37:23 cpressey: that's truer than you might think 20:37:24 cpressey, even though arch linux should be bleeding edge it only happens on ubuntu for me 20:37:58 Hmm, â©´. ::=, could be nice for Thue programs. 20:38:01 i never really got "bleeding edge", could someone explain it to me 20:38:10 ooh, it syntax-highlights by default for me too now 20:38:14 AnMaster: If only it had a "go to line #" function, it would probably start looking like a viable editor for me. 20:38:15 oklopol, doesn't it mean that it probably doesn't work. 20:38:19 they must have started bundling the highlight library with the program itself 20:38:26 which would explain why everyone noticed it only recently 20:38:50 cpressey, ^W ^T 20:38:51 ohhhhhh 20:38:54 cpressey, that is goto line 20:38:56 cpressey, iirc 20:39:08 in nano? isn't it Esc-G? 20:39:11 cpressey, I normally use emacs when programming, which is when I need goto line 20:39:18 Phantom_Hoover: i wasn't aware that it's a joke on leading edge, i thought it was just another way to say "really modern and cool and shit" :D 20:39:28 I don't know. 20:39:31 so i also wasn't aware that it means it doesn't work 20:39:34 olsner, that sounds like emacs. 20:39:40 oklopol, I was making that up. 20:39:49 Phantom_Hoover: i checked it 20:39:52 olsner, it is M-g g in emacs it seems 20:39:53 but okay 20:40:03 had to check with my fingers in emacs to remember 20:40:07 too used to it 20:40:11 muscle memory or something 20:40:12 hmm 20:40:16 Hey, anyone remember Lumeniki? 20:40:25 i'm pretty sure i've seen bleeding edge used to just mean "the newest of new" 20:41:25 AnMaster: Indeed, ^W^T works. Thanks. 20:41:26 goto line is M-g M-g in emacs 20:41:33 No it isn't 20:41:41 yes it is, I use that combo loads 20:41:50 Well, it's M-g g. 20:41:54 As well. 20:41:57 Phantom_Hoover, I said that 20:42:05 hmm, both work 20:42:09 M-g g must be newer, though 20:42:10 Yes, that's why I said it. 20:42:20 oklopol: I thought "bleeding edge" was a reference to "as new as possible -- so new, it's dangerous". 20:42:28 cpressey, it says that at the bottom of the screen as you type C-w in nano 20:42:33 Hmm, I instinctively type ^D after ^X^C now. 20:42:42 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:42:46 Phantom_Hoover, forgot ^K 20:43:29 What good would that do? 20:43:41 AnMaster: how did javadoc end up in perpet.c? 20:43:46 that must be your doing, I don't think I'd have done that myself 20:43:48 ais523, what? 20:43:51 I don't mind, I'm just terribly surprised 20:43:57 ais523, what do you mean javadoc? 20:44:06 ais523, doxygen could be me. Javadoc: no 20:44:09 /** @param argc What do you think? */ 20:44:12 javadoc format 20:44:19 ais523, doxygen syntax to me 20:44:39 I'm not surprised that doxygen used a pre-existing syntax 20:44:43 so that it worked on Java too 20:44:45 true 20:44:51 ais523, doesn't doxygen do \ as well 20:44:52 What are you talking about? 20:44:54 as an alternative 20:45:04 Phantom_Hoover: perpet.c is one of the source files in C-INTERCAL 20:45:08 ais523, anyway surely it fits in the general madness in there 20:45:21 ais523, I thought ESR maintained that. 20:45:21 it does 20:45:28 Phantom_Hoover, no ais523 does 20:45:29 Phantom_Hoover: you're years out of date 20:45:35 Probably. 20:45:38 ESR generally has better things to do with his time 20:45:47 Hmm, I don't need to boycott it any more. 20:46:02 most of the ESRisms have left by now 20:46:11 it's come along a lot since the days of ESR 20:46:12 Oh come now, what could possibly be better use of one's time... 20:46:17 doxygen is like javadoc but for other languages and with a few extensions like accepting \ instead of @ 20:46:23 Also, what better things can he do? 20:46:32 Shoot people with GUNs? 20:46:57 Hmm, APT doesn't have C-INTERCAL. 20:46:59 cpressey, than what? 20:47:01 Phantom_Hoover: it does 20:47:07 it's under the name "intercal" 20:47:11 olsner, \ is for compat with something else iirc 20:47:12 Yes. 20:47:13 olsner, :P 20:47:26 IIRC, Debian has the most recent stable version, but there's a more recent beta 20:47:30 But the description is "an INTERCAL de-obfuscator". 20:47:34 olsner, qtdocs sounds familiar 20:47:35 not sure 20:47:37 Phantom_Hoover: it's a bad joke, and not one of mine 20:47:49 the idea being that machine code is easier to read than INTERCAL 20:47:55 ais523, :D 20:47:59 iinm qt should be newer than java 20:48:31 olsner, iinm? 20:48:39 if I'm not mistaken 20:48:45 if I... never mind 20:49:36 Is there an IPv5? 20:49:45 Phantom_Hoover, development version 20:49:48 doxygen was first released in 1997, and javadoc in 1995 according to wikipedia 20:50:09 ais523, wouldn't that be iinn? 20:50:12 Phantom_Hoover: yes, but it's unrelated to v4 or v6 and has an entirely different purpose 20:50:19 AnMaster: err, no? 20:50:23 Where's C-INTERCAL kept? 20:50:32 ais523, oh wait 20:50:35 thinko 20:50:36 Phantom_Hoover: http://c.intercal.org.uk 20:51:10 ais523, last I checked only ipv6 worked for that 20:51:15 Who's Claudio Calvelli? 20:51:24 ais523, seems repaired now 20:51:25 AnMaster: that's only for the gopher download, http works fine over v4 20:51:33 Phantom_Hoover: CLC-INTERCAL chief developer 20:51:37 we share the domain name intercal.org.uk 20:51:42 Ah. 20:51:47 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:51:59 0.-2.0.29 is the latest? 20:52:01 both British, after all 20:52:03 and yes 20:52:09 ais523, well for a while http over v4 was broken 20:52:10 gopher ftw 20:52:12 ais523, a few weeks ago 20:52:23 cpressey, fully agreed 20:52:41 -!- wareya has joined. 20:55:40 How do I extract from archives with pax? 20:55:47 use tar 20:56:00 pax is the POSIX standard archiving format 20:56:12 but hardly anyone uses it (except Mac OS X) 20:56:22 only BSD seems to provide pax by default, but it's backwards-compatible with tar 20:56:32 and GNU tar recognises the format so you even get all the new pax features 20:56:46 What is the point, then? 20:56:59 standards! when /nobody else uses them/! 20:57:08 INTERCAL can't resist the opportunity to be correct where nobody else is 20:57:08 Except OS X! 20:57:14 it doesn't count 20:57:19 I agree. 20:57:20 I think, in contrast to the common eval-phobia of Lisp'ers in the past, I'd like to see a language which embraces eval, and uses it for everything. 20:57:37 cpressey, surely one exists already? 20:57:41 cpressey: do Underload-alikes count? 20:57:45 Well I'd like to see it! 20:57:54 ais523: Mmmm aybe. 20:57:55 it uses eval for all flow control 20:57:55 ais523, why a file extension at all 20:58:00 Wait, why do people hate eval? 20:58:00 ais523, after all there is file(1) 20:58:29 Phantom_Hoover: Because they love compiling ahead of time. 20:58:40 $ file ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz 20:58:41 ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz: gzip compressed data, from Unix, last modified: Wed Apr 1 16:30:28 2009, max compression 20:59:00 cpressey, well I wouldn't want eval in an implementation of /bin/su 20:59:08 $ file ick-0.-2.0.29.pax 20:59:10 ick-0.-2.0.29.pax: POSIX tar archive 20:59:13 hmm, not bad 20:59:29 su `whoami` 20:59:57 cpressey: isn't that just a little pointless? 21:00:23 $() dammit 21:00:28 I dislike ` 21:00:29 Well, just demonstrating that we already have something eval-y there. 21:00:34 hard to type on this keyboard 21:00:40 cpressey, that ` is done in shell 21:00:42 cpressey, not in su 21:00:47 cpressey, so that doesn't count 21:01:06 cpressey, wouldn't work if you started it from a C program with the execv() call 21:01:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:01:20 AnMaster: I know that. 21:02:09 * ais523 searches for historical versions of C-INTERCAL I don't have 21:02:18 ooh, seems FreeBSD has the SHA has for 0.17 21:02:25 *SHA1 hash 21:02:31 I wonder if it has the tarball too? 21:03:46 apparently not 21:04:51 ais523, ask ESR? 21:05:03 worth a /try/ I suppose 21:05:16 but I'm not certain he's even aware that anyone else picked up the mantle of INTERCAL development 21:05:23 ais523, mail him? 21:05:38 -!- augur has joined. 21:05:42 ais523, also online as esr, but in #wesnoth-dev 21:05:53 I tried IRCing him once, but he ignored me 21:06:05 I think, anyway 21:06:09 my memory's a bit hazy 21:06:10 ESR is a Wesnoth developer? That seems so... slumming. 21:06:19 cpressey, slumming? 21:06:22 not reason to veto Wesnoth, though, IMO 21:06:36 cpressey, I think he works on story stuff rather than the technical stuff mostly? Not sure 21:06:44 Open Source is more important than ... just ... *games*! 21:07:07 cpressey, wesnoth is one of the most popular foss games though 21:07:09 cpressey: games are one of the main reasons people don't switch to Linux, aren't they? 21:07:19 AnMaster: possibly /the/ most popular, for all I know it even beats NetHack 21:07:44 ais523, hah. I don't have statistics. Thus I didn't want to make any more specific claims 21:08:03 But Open Source is more than just getting people to switch to Linux! ... etc. I won't continue 21:08:09 cpressey, BSD too? 21:08:45 I know someone who thinks linux is the worst _kernel_ ever. No not a windows user. a *BSD user. 21:09:33 AnMaster: I don't see how a Windows user /could/ think Linux is the worst kernel ever, after all they have to actually live with the NT kernel 21:09:58 ais523, he based this opinion on reading parts of linux 2.2.0 21:10:25 BSD people tend to be like that. 21:10:44 cpressey, he prefers windows over linux he says 21:10:46 It's true the BSD kernel is superior in a lot of ways. But surely there are worse kernels out there than Linux. 21:11:01 NetHack > Wesnoth. 21:11:08 I like both games 21:11:13 Roguelike Wesnoth would be neat, though. 21:11:14 same 21:11:24 I don't have the patience to micromanage. 21:11:36 hm 21:11:59 I like NetHack because you need to think, but you can concentrate. 21:12:07 I can't really stand computer RPGs anymore. I mostly play arcade-type games, when I play, these days. 21:12:14 Also, because it's incredibly cool. 21:12:25 I get enough thinking with my job and my hobby. 21:12:32 I never liked arcade 21:12:36 too much about speed 21:12:41 and I'm rather slow to react 21:12:59 cpressey, I am at school. I get no intellectual stimulation whatsoever. 21:13:14 Phantom_Hoover: Touche. 21:13:20 Phantom_Hoover, friend nerds? 21:13:28 AnMaster, you make me laugh. 21:13:36 AFAIK there isn't another nerd in my year. 21:13:48 Phantom_Hoover, hm that will change at university 21:13:56 I was in the top computing class, and I believe I've bitched about that before. 21:14:15 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 21:14:39 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:15:43 There isn't a way to migrate NetHack saves, is there? 21:15:50 Well, obviously not. 21:15:57 to Wesnoth? 21:16:01 XD 21:16:04 lawl 21:16:11 now /that/ would be a fun project 21:16:13 ais523, that was intentional right? 21:16:30 AnMaster: what was? 21:16:34 ais523, could you rewrite nethack in that scripting language of wesnoth, forgot the name of it 21:16:36 Does it still encode the file's inode into the save to stop you from copying it? 21:16:44 WML? probably, it's just-about TC 21:16:46 ais523, misinterpreting it as migrating to wesnoth rather than between computers 21:16:47 intentional 21:16:48 in an esolangy sort of way 21:17:06 Phantom_Hoover: it does have an anti-copy mechanism, but I'm not sure if it's that one specifically 21:17:09 AnMaster, doing anything with NetHacks source is a task for the hardiest of esolang programmers. 21:17:15 it's the PID it embeds, I think, not the save file name 21:17:20 s/NetHacks/NetHack's/ 21:17:21 to stop people duplicating levels in an open game 21:17:25 Phantom_Hoover, who said that? 21:17:34 AnMaster, me, from experience. 21:17:35 Phantom_Hoover, I never said you should touch nethack source 21:17:42 obviously you should reverse engineer it 21:17:50 That's bloody hard too. 21:17:59 The thing is a mass of preprocessor macros. 21:18:12 and I know what nethack source looks like 21:18:17 the worst bit is the indention 21:18:20 mixed tab and spaces 21:18:22 horrible 21:18:23 NetHack's source is nothing compared to bits of Crawl 21:18:33 and mixed tab-space is trivial to fix, just use indent or sed or something 21:18:35 ais523, never looked at that 21:18:56 NetHack's source is an interesting intellectual puzzle; Crawl's made me feel physically sick 21:19:02 What about the way it declares parameter types after the ()s? 21:19:13 That threw me for a while. 21:19:18 I heard the Angband source is nice. The number of forks of it would seem to support that idea. 21:19:18 Phantom_Hoover: that's old-style C 21:19:23 this file is funny. it seems to use 2,2,3,2,3 for the tab stops with spaces 21:19:28 Hmm, that would make sense. 21:19:35 NetHack predates C89 really catching on 21:19:37 there are no more levels to see if there is a pattern to it 21:19:46 void main(int argc, char args[][]) 21:19:56 Gregor-W: that's actually invalid IIRC 21:19:59 Gregor-W, argv is the usually name 21:20:05 char *args[] is the closest you can legally get 21:20:07 * cpressey hurls a weasel at Gregor-W 21:20:07 AnMaster: Yeah, I typo'd args :P 21:20:10 Gregor-W, and yes it is invalid 21:20:16 because main should return int 21:20:17 not void 21:20:21 ais523: At some point in C's history, "*" was not a valid way to name a pointer. 21:20:23 AnMaster: hah! 21:20:23 Would it be even vaguely worthwhile to make a usable roguelike engine? 21:20:24 ais523, it isn't illegal because of that afaik 21:20:31 Gregor-W: you needed to use ! in BCPL, I think 21:20:33 ais523, only because of return type 21:20:37 That could plausibly have NH ported to it. 21:21:33 ais523, anyway argv[][] should be completely valid afaik 21:21:40 hm wait 21:21:42 no it shouldn't 21:21:52 but yes it has to return int anyway 21:21:56 so invalid either way 21:22:03 You people are SO unhelpful. 21:22:11 Gregor-W, why? 21:22:22 I make a really stupid joke and you tear it to threads :P 21:22:34 Gregor-W, joke? I can't see any jokes 21:22:55 It has occured to me in the past that C should be able to use Lispesque returning. 21:23:00 $ cat > a.c \ int main(int argc, char argv[][]) {return 0;} \ $ gcc -ansi -pedantic -Wall -Wextra -O3 a.c \ a.c:1: error: array type has incomplete element type \ a.c:1: warning: ‘main’ takes only zero or two arguments \ a.c: In function ‘main’: \ a.c:1: warning: unused parameter ‘argc’ \ a.c:1: warning: unused parameter ‘argv’ 21:23:05 I was just writing really bad C. I should have done: void main(argc, argv) int argc; char **argv; { ... } 21:23:07 I suppose 21:23:14 ais523, yep indeed 21:23:31 AnMaster: proof right there 21:23:40 Gregor-W, only valid in K&R / C90 21:23:43 not C99 afaik 21:23:46 At least on x86. 21:23:56 AnMaster: _REALLY_ _BAD_ _C_ 21:24:45 !c #include \nint main(argc, argv) int argc; char **argv; { printf("Ain't I a stinker?\n"); } 21:24:52 Whoops, meant void main ... 21:25:41 Aren't the bots down? 21:25:48 fungot? 21:25:48 #ifdef _REALLY__BAD__C_ 21:25:49 Phantom_Hoover: does the java interpreter?: ( destructure-case ' ( 1 2) 21:25:52 Shouldn't be. 21:25:56 Ah, good old fungot. 21:25:57 !help 21:25:57 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 21:25:57 Phantom_Hoover: one of the happy users of v2.0 i can tell emacs to ' show me' the open parens corresponding to the actual standard being sane) scheme implementations support all of the control stack between the invocation of the macro 21:26:05 `echo hello 21:26:12 `ls 21:26:13 hello 21:26:15 bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26862 \ wunderbar_emporium 21:26:24 !sh echo hello 21:26:24 hello 21:27:28 `echo /me bows 21:27:29 /me bows 21:28:16 `echo /quit Boy people wish this kind of thing would work, good thing Gregor isn't that stupid. 21:28:18 /quit Boy people wish this kind of thing would work, good thing Gregor isn't that stupid. 21:29:17 HackEgo is contrained by the Fifth Law of Robotics: Never give up! 21:29:28 *constrained 21:29:53 CHALLENGE: Write an IRC client that applies fixes made by "*fix" and "s/bad/fix/" syntax. 21:30:03 (The first is the major challenge) 21:30:20 CHALLENGE RELEVANCE: Write this client in ... Brainfuck? 21:31:27 write it in malbolge with a genetic algorithm 21:32:36 `echo ACTION bows 21:32:38 * HackEgo bows 21:34:33 Why the 0x1s at the start? 21:34:55 `echo ACTION bows 21:34:56 ACTION bows 21:35:17 * Sgeo__ sees someone on reddit mention "Alex Smith" 21:35:33 I'm so tempted to say something like "I talk to Alex Smith online on a semi-regular basis" 21:36:08 which one? 21:36:16 there are approximately 10 alex smiths more famous than me 21:36:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:36:30 I'm pretty sure the comment is referring to you 21:36:39 best known is the American footballer 21:36:43 http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/ci4dl/today_would_have_been_alan_turings_98th_birthday/c0sqaic 21:36:56 I filter links... 21:37:07 "It is a personal story about how he came to learn about Turing and his work. I liked it. 21:37:07 He even gave Alex Smith the credit he deserves. Also: I liked his speculations about Turing's death. If it was an accident we can go back to hating gays, right?" 21:37:22 hmm, interesting 21:37:35 who wrote whatever "it" refers to in the comment? 21:37:49 Wolfram 21:38:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:39:11 -!- Deewiant has joined. 21:43:03 -!- micahjohnston has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:44:20 The esolang wiki page for FALSE says it might not be TC. It seems to be it is TC because it can simulate the lambda calculus (this is one of the example programs.) Of course, there may be some subtlety in the way. 21:45:28 is there a bounded-memory issue? 21:45:33 -!- hiato_ has quit (Quit: underflow). 21:46:11 ais523: Well, only a finite number of variable names (but if they can be closed over, that shouldn't be a huge problem). Also, only one stack (but you ought to be able to create lists using closures.) 21:46:41 hmm, /me gives myself a link: http://esolangs.org/wiki/FALSE 21:46:51 yes, it works when I do it >:) 21:47:32 the wiki commentary seems to have missed the existence of a lambda operation altogether 21:48:11 Nthern wrote a TCness proof on the talkpage 21:48:23 Weird, weird. 21:48:47 Amazon has the first 3 volumes of The Sandman, new, for a sane price. 21:48:58 that doesn't seem to be based on embedding lambda calculus, but rather doing pulling the same trick as SMITH but with data rather than code 21:49:07 Volume 4 is available for £67 used. 21:49:14 Phantom_Hoover: maybe they got the rights to print the first three volumes 21:49:40 Amazon don't print The Sandman AFAIK. 21:49:43 Amazon has book-printing machines, they realised at some point it would save time and effort to simply print the books themselves on demand rather than having to buy them in from elsewhere 21:49:58 -!- micahjohnston2 has joined. 21:50:21 Since the editions are identical to the ones found in normal bookshops. 21:50:57 There are new editions, but there was something weird with them, too. 21:51:42 Hmm, it costs 3 times as much as the first 3. 21:51:58 -!- micahjohnston2 has quit (Client Quit). 21:53:21 ais523, what about hard cover? 21:53:30 ais523, and different paper qualities and so on 21:53:31 AnMaster: I don't know the details 21:54:23 Hmm, these points are all salient. 21:54:28 ais523, I mean, books varies a lot. Everything from cheap paper back and books for small children with plastic pages, to huge books with high quality paper with photos and such on 21:54:59 AnMaster: yes, I'm aware that it would be a valid issue, but I'm also telling you that I don't know the details and thus can't answer your concerns 21:55:05 hm 21:55:06 But the first 3 volumes are all available as new paperbacks. 21:55:08 zzo38 can get away with this, you can't 21:55:15 -!- micahjohnston has joined. 21:55:24 ais523, maybe I'm turning into zzo!? 21:55:28 ais523, get away with what? 21:55:50 Phantom_Hoover: repeatedly assuming that people know the answers to your questions despite a) no context, and b) they already having told you they don't know 21:56:24 ais523, also I wasn't asking you. I was just continuing my thread of thought 21:56:43 the second time I mean 21:57:08 ais523, anyway you are working on ick I heard? 21:57:17 What more could it need? 21:57:24 ais523, also you have to know about those doxygen comments, you reviewed my patches after all 21:57:37 yes, but I forgot again afterwards 21:57:40 ah 21:57:47 and then vaguely reremembered, but forgot all the details 21:58:01 ais523, ah. Well what were you doing in perpet.c? 21:58:09 are we going to see anything interesting 21:58:12 testing nano's syntax highlighting 21:58:19 it was the first C file I thought of to test on 21:58:23 ais523, perpet.c isn't the worst one 21:58:31 ais523, kate 3.x used to fail at some other file 21:58:34 forgot which one 21:58:44 there's a file in the INTERCAL source that break's Kate's syntax hilighting? 21:58:45 ais523, might have been uncommon.c or perpet.c before fixes 21:58:56 "This implementation was created by Eric S. Raymond 21:58:56 during a fit of lunacy from which he has since mostly recovered." 21:58:57 ais523, kate 3.x not 4.x I think 21:59:04 I debate that. 21:59:05 *breaks 21:59:14 Phantom_Hoover: you can recover from one lunacy into another 21:59:18 ais523, and if it was perpet.c I probably worked around that when I was making the other changes since I think I used kate for it 21:59:21 Fair point. 21:59:31 The INTERCAL lunacy was preferable, though. 21:59:41 I know there are a few comments around whose purpose is to unconfuse Emacs 21:59:48 but I can't remember whether they're in INTERCAL or something else 21:59:57 probably something else, because I seem to remember the language being Perl 21:59:59 ais523, kate mostly get confused when you have stuff like: 22:00:04 #ifdef ... 22:00:07 Kate always seemed to have very good syntax highlighting. 22:00:10 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:00:10 if (...) { 22:00:14 #else 22:00:15 if (...) { 22:00:17 #endif 22:00:17 yep, it beats any other program I've tried, including Emacs 22:00:18 Although it had some baffling omissions, 22:00:23 Octave, but not M$> 22:00:24 ais523, it doesn't match up then with the { and } 22:00:31 ais523, meaning code folding breaks 22:00:31 s/M$/M4/ 22:00:32 badly 22:00:38 that isn't syntax highlighting, but I get your point 22:01:09 ais523, I think kate broke on some syntax too before 22:01:16 ais523, preprocessor thing most likely 22:01:42 Phantom_Hoover, I forgot if it was kate or emacs that I managed to get to break badly on bash code once 22:01:50 it got confused about where a string ended 22:02:14 or was it a heredoc? anyway 22:02:16 something like that 22:02:18 I seem to recall Emacs getting confused by a weird string in Bash once. 22:02:44 "All Known Implementing Classes: RequestProcessorFactoryFactory.RequestSpecificProcessorFactoryFactory, RequestProcessorFactoryFactory.StatelessProcessorFactoryFactory" 22:02:45 Phantom_Hoover, in a $() ? 22:02:52 I remember some editor having issues with that 22:02:56 I don't know 22:03:00 ais523, java? 22:03:04 It wasn't in a $() though 22:03:07 AnMaster: yes; the apache libs to be precise 22:03:09 Phantom_Hoover, hm 22:03:14 ais523, this is a joke right? 22:03:24 people were talking about overuse of design patterns; and someone said that was the worst example they knew of 22:03:28 not a joke 22:03:33 ouch 22:03:40 ais523, factory factory is just broken 22:03:48 first para of the docs is fun too: "The request processor is the object, which is actually performing the request. There is nothing magic about the request processor: It may very well be a POJO. The RequestProcessorFactoryFactory is passed to the AbstractReflectiveHandlerMapping at startup. The mapping uses this factory to create instances of RequestProcessorFactoryFactory.RequestProcessorFactory, which are used to initialize the 22:03:50 ReflectiveXmlRpcHandler. The handler in turn uses its factory to create the actual request processor when a request comes in." 22:04:11 ais523, was it intentional that the compiler flags for C-INTERCAL are full of -DICK*s? 22:04:17 Phantom_Hoover: no 22:04:24 I have a habit of triggering rude words by mistake 22:04:30 * Phantom_Hoover feels juvenile. 22:04:37 everyone else is still convinced the :aSS in the Underload quine is intentional 22:04:39 Phantom_Hoover, I never noticed that 22:04:40 but it wasn't either 22:04:54 ais523, I never noticed that either 22:05:04 yep, I hadn't noticed it all along 22:05:06 ais523, also those docs sound horrible 22:05:13 http://ws.apache.org/xmlrpc/apidocs/org/apache/xmlrpc/server/RequestProcessorFactoryFactory 22:05:15 see for yourself if you want 22:05:24 why would I want it 22:05:32 DICKDATADIR. 22:05:45 the docs do at least explain why a factory factory is useful 22:05:49 I assume it does what it says on the tin. 22:05:49 ais523, it would be like what is said about necrotelicomicon (sp?) in the Discworld books! 22:06:27 Necrotelecomnicon. 22:06:32 ah thanks 22:07:43 you know about the things that make you feel "the future is here. fuck the flying cars!" ? 22:07:59 I think panorama stitching is one of those 22:08:18 what do i and n do in Befunge-98? 22:08:35 ais523, i is "load file into funge space" and n is "clear stack" 22:08:37 ais523, why? 22:08:45 trying to understand a polyglot 22:08:47 which I think is broken 22:08:57 ais523, the one on stackoverflow? 22:09:00 yes it is broken 22:09:01 see logs 22:09:15 ah, I rarely logread nowadays 22:09:17 ais523, it is 93 but depends on unknown pushing ascii value 22:09:31 ah, aha 22:09:37 I was wondering how it ended up in stringmode 22:09:46 with no double-quotes in the entire program 22:09:58 what Befunge impl pushes unknown values? 22:10:27 ais523, one linked on there iirc 22:10:31 that is the only one we know of 22:10:36 a java applet 22:10:46 ais523, it would be pointless to link you to it of course 22:11:02 Following on cpressey's earlier suggestion, how can you make an extremely eval-dependent language? 22:11:11 AnMaster: and I can find it easily enough anyway 22:11:26 "FALSE does not have any way to create new lambda functions not in the source, so those don't help." Says Oerjan. :/ 22:11:26 Phantom_Hoover: have no commands but eval, add the minimum syntax needed for TCness 22:11:41 Is that possible? 22:11:42 oh, are functions not first-class? 22:11:57 Phantom_Hoover: well, presumably /some/ level of added stuff gives TCness 22:12:01 the issue is finding how much 22:12:24 hm 22:12:58 ais523, FALSE doesn't really have functions, does it? 22:13:04 as for oerjan's comment, I'm not sure I understand it 22:13:14 unless the lambdas are somehow evaluated at compile-time 22:13:21 or it has "lambdas" that aren't closures, or something 22:13:49 Do you need closures for first-class functions? 22:14:36 I mean, C has first-class functions. 22:14:37 I guess you can't return functions from functions in FALSE, and yes, that would be critical to e.g. building lists from them. 22:14:38 no, but you do need them to be able to generate TCness purely with functions 22:14:43 and C does not have first-class functions 22:14:57 Well, it has function pointers. 22:14:58 there's no (portable) way to copy a function in C, something which should definitely be possible with first-class values 22:15:21 ais523: So they're immutable! 22:15:29 No need to copy an immutable value, right? 22:15:33 :D 22:15:58 cpressey: just because you don't /need/ to copy something... 22:16:22 ais523, is there no standardised way of executing code generated at runtime? 22:16:33 Phantom_Hoover: nope 22:16:46 but in practice, casting a char array to a function pointer and calling it tends to work 22:16:53 I thought there was... 22:17:03 ais523, what about non-executable memory? 22:17:10 then it crashes 22:17:17 this is assuming you make the char array in executable memory somehow 22:17:25 How do things like GNU Lightning work, then? 22:17:28 and there's no portable way to do that either 22:17:47 frameworks for doing such things probably have several nonportable ways, one for each platform where it needs to run 22:17:57 Also, damn you for having such a common name. 22:18:15 Phantom_Hoover: can you take that back please! 22:18:20 I strongly dislike religious insults 22:18:28 damning someone is a wish for the worst possible thing to happen to them 22:18:42 Really? 22:18:49 I don't even believe in hell! 22:18:49 yes, that's what it means 22:18:57 How can I wish for you to go to it? 22:19:18 ais523, there is a standard way to copy them in C. Assigning a function pointer. However: they are copy on write ;) 22:19:18 and I know people like throwing insults around without caring about their meaning, but they should be a bit more sensiive 22:19:21 *sensitive 22:19:52 I'm not religious either, but I still take offense to comments like that 22:19:53 Well, I don't want you to go to any form of hell. Does that count as a rescindsion? 22:20:07 I have no idea about that last word. 22:20:14 ais523, how would you react to "fuck you"? In Swedish, sexual insults are _way_ worse than religious ones. 22:20:23 It should exist, but it looks wrong. 22:20:25 AnMaster: is wishing for someone to be fucked really an insult? 22:20:32 ais523, hah 22:20:37 Phantom_Hoover: I don't recognise the word either, but know what it means 22:20:46 AnMaster, I thought that applied in English. 22:21:00 Phantom_Hoover, thought it was the reverse in English? 22:21:01 "Fuck" is generally considered far less acceptable than "damn". 22:21:06 Phantom_Hoover, hm 22:21:07 maybe 22:21:21 Phantom_Hoover, maybe it was in south Europe it was the other way around 22:21:27 I remember that it was somewhere 22:21:27 Possily. 22:21:40 Phantom_Hoover: for most people, yes; but I think that's a crazy way round for it to be 22:21:44 I think some Americans are touchy about religious language. 22:22:22 But they tend to be the sort of people who wouldn't tolerate any swearing at all. 22:22:43 I don't generally mind swearing, although I feel it's mostly inappropriate and pointless 22:24:15 I don't particularly mind it, but I try not to go beyond mild curses. 22:24:35 I used to never swear in public. In private, with my computer open, is a different story 22:24:58 To make sure I have an appropriately strong expletive when I type "rm * \~" when not in zsh. 22:25:03 ais523, fuck the damn swearing? 22:25:09 in other words 22:25:14 AnMaster: that doesn't even make sense... 22:25:23 if you translate all the words back into their original meanings 22:25:25 Or when it turns out that my IRC client has been giving my name ou on whois. 22:25:41 ais523, ... well of course.... But it does make sense in modern meanings in that context 22:26:27 Phantom_Hoover: if your name is Phantom Hoover, profane now because that's what whois says 22:26:46 No, it isn't. 22:26:48 Phantom_Hoover, um rm like that won't work for me :P http://sprunge.us/LFRQ 22:26:54 Phantom_Hoover, two safe guards there 22:27:09 Phantom_Hoover, anyway I can't see why you would type a \ before the ~ there 22:27:10 AnMaster, it was \~, not just ~/ 22:27:20 AnMaster, remove backup files. 22:27:26 They tend to accumulate. 22:27:29 Phantom_Hoover, yes that would be rm *~ 22:27:31 no \ there 22:27:34 ... 22:27:48 Yes, I suppose. 22:27:56 Phantom_Hoover, look again btw. 1) ~ is a dir, it would not get removed by rm without -r 22:28:02 2) I use rm -I at the end 22:28:10 -I asks if more than 3 files or something like that 22:28:11 Yes, but there was a * on its own. 22:28:13 it asks once though 22:28:19 Phantom_Hoover: re eval lang: One thing you can do is replace blocks with strings. You can just say if("a>3", "print a") and suchlike. 22:28:22 The \~ was unimportand. 22:28:23 Phantom_Hoover, yes and that rm -I will guard 22:28:33 guard against* 22:28:42 Phantom_Hoover, and you should use version control and backups anyway 22:29:15 AnMaster, I have already told you that I haven't got anything important. 22:29:26 Phantom_Hoover, anyway rm -I is a good idea 22:29:28 check the docs 22:29:39 Phantom_Hoover, it asks once, not once per file 22:29:40 I agree. 22:29:46 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:29:49 and only if more than 3 files or such 22:29:53 forgot exact limit 22:30:01 Phantom_Hoover, alias that or such 22:30:01 zsh safeguards by default in any case. 22:30:14 Phantom_Hoover, oh? it special cases rm? 22:30:19 What? 22:30:27 Phantom_Hoover, well how else would it guard against that 22:30:30 it must special case 22:30:31 No, that was an idiomatic statement with little meaning. 22:30:35 it can't know your intention 22:31:01 Well, it probably has special behaviour on rm, yes. 22:31:31 zsh is basically the Emacs philosophy applied to a shell, remember? 22:31:49 what! I liked zsh 22:32:00 and now I hear it has something to do with emacs :( 22:32:16 I said philosophy. 22:32:22 They don't share a line of code. 22:32:48 I have great respect for any program with a manual page that needs to be split across 17 files. 22:33:09 I have scarcely touched its magnificence. 22:33:19 I just use a zshrc I found online 22:33:36 Wait, is it 17 files? 22:33:56 Well, 16. 22:34:05 The 17th is everything glued together. 22:34:19 It's still very impressive. 22:34:33 * AnMaster waits for slow youtube 22:34:34 bash's is probably about the same size, except they never bothered splitting it 22:34:56 olsner, I love emacs and hate zsh 22:35:00 well not hate 22:35:07 I just think that bash is enough 22:35:14 I thought zsh was the union of all other Bourne shell derivatives. 22:35:19 Phantom_Hoover, also how do you fix that zsh doesn't treat # as a comment in interactive shell 22:35:21 AnMaster, but it's so convenient! 22:35:26 Phantom_Hoover, that is my main irritating with zsh 22:35:27 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 22:35:37 Phantom_Hoover, I tend to comment out line temporarily to put them in history 22:35:38 There's probably an option for that. 22:35:40 then go back up 22:35:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:35:41 I used zsh furiously until I stopped caring about shells and went to the default one instead 22:35:46 Phantom_Hoover, yes but which one 22:35:54 Phantom_Hoover, I never found it 22:35:57 That way madness lies. 22:35:58 csh. For great justice! 22:36:25 cpressey, I sshed to systems where pdksh is default and only shell 22:36:40 AnMaster, INTERACTIVE_COMMENTS perhaps? 22:37:03 Yep. 22:37:06 Phantom_Hoover, hm I had to find the right zsh man page first 22:37:11 Phantom_Hoover, it is tricky :P 22:37:17 setopt interactive_comments in .zshrc. 22:37:25 AnMaster, this is why Google is good. 22:37:36 Phantom_Hoover, also zsh doesn't do anything I want that bash doesn't. Bash 4 added the last feature I was missing 22:37:40 which was assoc arrays 22:37:58 The tab completion is very good. 22:38:06 14:13:04 as for oerjan's comment, I'm not sure I understand it 22:38:06 14:13:14 unless the lambdas are somehow evaluated at compile-time 22:38:06 14:13:21 or it has "lambdas" that aren't closures, or something 22:38:07 " I guess you can't return functions from functions in FALSE, and yes, that would be critical to e.g. building lists from them." <<< cps 22:38:09 I have trouble doing without it. 22:38:10 Phantom_Hoover, I never had issues with bash tab complete 22:38:21 i assume not being closures is what i meant 22:38:44 zsh's isn't necessary, just very helpful. 22:38:58 You don't even need to use ls when you have it. 22:39:12 Well, sort of. 22:39:20 It doesn't include some file types. 22:39:30 um 22:39:36 Phantom_Hoover, so how to do ls -li 22:39:41 with pure zsh 22:39:41 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 22:39:49 X 22:39:56 AnMaster, OK, "don't need" was wrong. 22:40:00 righ t 22:40:00 ais523: cpressey hi! 22:40:03 right* 22:40:03 It's just not necessary as much. 22:40:06 and now. night 22:40:20 ehirdiphone: hi 22:40:22 Also, it can tab-complete options for a lot of programs. 22:40:31 cpressey: Hi! 22:40:32 Phantom_Hoover: bash has stolen that feature 22:40:34 No, wait 22:40:39 * cpressey thinks 22:40:45 it's a good one, but not zsh-unique any more 22:40:49 ehirdiphone: Hi, ais523! 22:40:51 I love-hate skin cream. 22:40:53 Hmm, OK. 22:41:09 " if you translate all the words back into their original meanings" <<< why would you translate to original meanings when you could just use the current meanings? 22:41:14 Oh, and the prompts can be incredibly pretty. 22:41:21 oklopol: because the current meanings are incorrect? 22:41:34 cpressey: you seem to be having a nick identity crisis? 22:41:38 If it wasn't for E45/HC45 (ok, and antihistamine) this eczma would be unbearable. 22:41:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:41:50 OTOH it feels icky. 22:43:19 ais523: what do you mean? 22:43:39 most swearword meanings don't come from anywhere 22:43:45 people just use them 22:44:27 kinda like "dog" is meaningless, people just use it 22:44:39 i think you're just silly 22:44:40 but its meaning comes from somewhere 22:44:41 that's okay 22:44:46 i have to go to sleep 22:44:48 err 22:45:14 sure, just like fuck and damn originally came somewhere and started to mean something else 22:45:50 ehirdiphone: I have forgone the idea of writing my OS by dismissing the very concept of an "Operating System" as outdated. I am instead writing my own Computing Environment. 22:45:55 although fuck still has its original meaning, i don't think damning is a very useful concept anymore 22:46:09 (except to you) 22:47:52 -> 22:48:43 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:48:54 cpressey: I decided that,,, years ago 22:48:57 *... 22:49:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:49:30 Will ais523 still freak if I damn him? :) 22:49:59 that's what the discussion is about 22:50:00 cpressey: So, you're reinventing SmallTalk?] 22:50:06 (i'm gone though) 22:50:06 cpressey: Or are you reinventing EMACS? 22:50:17 Gregor-W: But Better. 22:50:21 12:04:22 oklopol, prefices? 22:50:21 12:04:30 prefix in plural 22:50:35 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:50:35 Also, no snarkiness to cpressey. That's a rule. 22:50:43 that's not etymologically correct, since the original latin is something like "prefixum" 22:50:50 Or at least, it is now. 22:51:05 oh, i would've thought because fix is fixes in plural 22:51:20 in any case it's prefices 22:51:22 oerjan: These virii are destroying my prefices! Ow, my foetus! 22:51:25 -!- Gregor-W has set topic: Snarkiness tolerated and encouraged | Well, except for that | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D]. 22:51:37 that's just how it is, deal with it 22:51:43 A comedy of entymological errors. 22:52:08 cpressey: So is your STUFF serialisable? Eh? Eh?! 22:52:09 foetus? 22:52:22 oklopol: well if you had a latin word "prefix", its plural could very well have been "prefices". 3rd declination. 22:52:24 is that the plural of foe 22:52:44 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 22:52:48 ehirdiphone: (It's mainly so I can use the letters CE and wave my hands over anyone antiquatedly using the letters OS, of course.) 22:53:20 ehirdiphone: My STUFF is serializable, but it's meaning is not always. Oooh! Deep! 22:53:23 oerjan: okay. it's still prefices. but x's turn to c's, no exceptions 22:53:26 *-but 22:53:34 cpressey: aargh, "CE" and "OS" in the same sentence -> bad connotations 22:53:39 oklopol: ehirdiphone is merely spitting out some other common latin bastardizations 22:53:42 ais523: There is that, I realize/ 22:53:42 in fact xylophone -> cylophones 22:53:51 even Windows fans dislike Windows CE, as far as I can tell 22:53:58 personally I've never used it, so I only have secondhand opinions 22:54:06 and what's foetus 22:54:08 Even people who work on Windows CE dislike WIndows CE :P 22:54:23 oklopol: sometimes in lating they turn to g instead. e.g. rex, reges 22:54:29 *latin 22:54:40 yes but not in english 22:54:53 in english they always turn to c's, except sometimes they turn into 2 c's 22:54:58 -!- micahjohnston has left (?). 22:55:15 lating (adjective): Pretentiously adding Latinate suffixes to Englishate words. 22:55:23 :D 22:55:39 don' be hatin' my latin' 22:56:17 Gregor-W: It' 22:56:30 Gregor-W: *suffices 22:56:31 * ais523 runs 22:56:34 oklopol: foetus means a not yet born body. however the "correct" spelling is fetus, oe is a hypercorrection. iirc. 22:56:38 Gregor-W: It's fair to say that many WinCE at the thought, yes. 22:56:53 the beauty of that pseudocorrection is that it fits the flow of the conversation just fine whether it's technically correct or technically incorrect 22:57:11 WinXE -> WinCEs 22:57:18 When pluralizing the word "suffix", it suffices to use "suffices". 22:58:04 Hm, I never thought about this ... 22:58:04 oerjan: i would say i knew that, but if that were the case then why would i have asked 22:58:10 NT4 -> 2000 -> XP -> Vista -> 7 22:58:16 Which one didn't deserve a number? 22:58:41 XP has a number? 22:59:02 Oh god close call 22:59:11 If the latest version is 7, and that number is in the same series as NT 3 and 4, then 5 and 6 both had codenames. But which? 22:59:16 oh 22:59:23 Heart beat entered stratosphere 22:59:25 that's what you meant 22:59:30 And if that number isn't in the same series as 3 and 4, then why did they pull a number out of their asses? :P 22:59:49 they did pretty much pick a number that sounded good for marketing 22:59:54 ehirdiphone: OK, um, well, if I'm actually thinking about my own CE, which I'm not officially, but anyway, I'm toying with the idea that STUFF is SExps + meanings for those SExps, where meanings are expressed as rewrite rules, which are denoted with SExps. (This is all leftover from Rho.) That makes them trivially serializable. 23:00:02 but if it helps, Vista is 6 23:00:04 "the lucky os" 23:00:13 and XP is either 5 or 4, i forget which 23:00:38 If XP is 4, then it'd been 4 since the mid-90s, and 5 just got lost :P 23:00:39 Someone ask me why I almost had a heart attack 23:00:44 And if the receiver doesn't like the meanings you're sending them, they don't have to use them. I was reading about Nock and Urbit and thinking about how crude some parts of it are. 23:00:47 ehirdiphone: OK 23:01:00 ehirdiphone: Why did you almost have a heart attack, anyway? 23:01:01 Not unlike ipv5 I suppose. 23:01:01 ehirdiphone: i'm assuming someone checked upon your room, or something? 23:01:04 ehirdiphone: can you imply the question? 23:01:13 oerjan: yeah 23:01:42 try running around in circles a bit or something to burn off the excess blood sugar 23:01:44 [knock] [door opens] "sorry didn't realise you were in bed" 23:01:58 it's 11pm 23:02:01 yesterday i was waiting for people to ask me to eat, and when they asked, i almost had a heart attack because the silence was broken 23:02:06 Had <1sec to lock it so no light and hold it off edge of bed 23:02:18 ais523: It is. And? 23:02:26 Also, they'd hear that. 23:02:40 ehirdiphone: assuming someone your age isn't in bed at 11pm seems implausible 23:02:47 or am I years behind the time? 23:02:52 what 23:02:53 :D 23:03:03 it'd be unreasonable to expect them to actually be /asleep/ 23:03:03 ais523: ... 23:03:08 Try 1-2 am 23:03:12 par for the course would be lying in bed pretending to be asleep 23:03:14 in ehirdiphone's age, assuming he's not drunk at 11pm seems implausible 23:03:20 But here the bedtimes are enforced. 23:03:24 whilst actually secretly reading a book or something, or I suppose using a mobile nowadays 23:03:36 come to think of it, exactly what actually /was/ happening 23:03:40 Hahaha 23:03:42 "Book" 23:03:47 ais523: We have a new system nowadays, it is called "fuck you parents" 23:03:49 Gregor-W: I don't own a mobile 23:03:56 ehirdiphone: I wouldn't recommend it. 23:03:57 I always used to illicitly read books 23:04:00 while sitting on the windowsill 23:04:04 Gregor-W: "I was Reading it for the articles" 23:04:21 "THE CENTERFOLD HAS EXCELLENT ARTICLES" 23:04:25 that way, I could get light (from the streetlights outside), whilst simultaneously leaving the curtains closed so nothing was suspicious 23:04:29 ais523: Hardcore 23:04:33 Illicit book Reading 23:04:39 ofc I don't fit on the windowsill 23:04:41 See? Those articles of clothing on the chair in the background! Excellent articles! 23:04:56 READING DOES NOT HAVE A CAPITAL R, APPLE 23:05:08 Huh? 23:05:08 reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays 23:05:16 after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it 23:05:32 therefore, the only plausible reason to own playboy is because you're curious as to what the articles are 23:05:34 "I read Playboy for the articles, I use youporn.com for porn" 23:05:45 or is something wrong with my reasoning here? 23:05:47 Gregor-W: Iphone spell correction 23:05:55 ehirdiphone: Ah :P 23:05:57 ehirdiphone: Reading is a city... 23:05:58 `addquote reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it 23:06:02 186| reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it 23:06:16 ais523: Some people are dumb. 23:06:24 i have just restarted firefox after installing a slew of plugins. it looks like a ricer dashboard, and the actual webpage is 1/4 the size of the browser window. i'll have to configure all of that shit away. 23:06:29 hi ehird 23:06:32 what's up, dude? 23:06:33 Also, computer in family space? But that's rare now. 23:06:35 why did you install a slew of plugins? 23:06:45 cheater99: I recommend not installing a slew of plugins :P 23:06:48 ehirdiphone: then just use it at 3am, or whatever 23:07:18 ais523: because. that's why. 23:07:29 Most people can't delete browser history :P 23:07:35 Hilarity is a guy saying "I only read Playgirl for the articles" 23:07:54 Wait. PLAYGIRL? 23:07:56 ehirdiphone: I delete it every now and then just because it gets crufty 23:08:02 Does that really... 23:08:03 on Epiphany, at least, which is my cruft browser 23:08:03 is Gregor-W a markov bot? 23:08:14 cheater99: I don't think so 23:08:17 No, but you are. 23:08:22 but you could probably replace 99% of IRC with a markovbot 23:08:23 no u 23:08:27 and not see any noticeable difference 23:08:30 ais523: yes 23:08:31 `echo Nuh uh! 23:08:32 Nuh uh! 23:09:04 So. 23:09:09 so what? 23:09:57 ais523: sex isn't rational, paying for a playboy might be sexier to some than looking at porn on the internet (although knowing you can get it for free might just render both uninteresting in that case) 23:10:23 meh, I tried looking at porn a while back but couldn't really see the point 23:10:26 Uninteresting because it's free. 23:10:30 it fails at its intended purpose 23:10:30 Porn. 23:10:35 XD 23:10:47 and I don't think it has a useful secondary purpose 23:10:56 ais523: "making toast" 23:11:09 after a while I just got bored and went back to watching tool-assisted speedruns 23:11:21 Still masturbating though. 23:11:27 XD 23:11:28 Wow he beat world 4-3 faaaaaast 23:11:34 Gregor-W: nah 23:11:47 ais523: why do you say you could probably replace 99% of IRC with a markovbot 23:11:50 imagination > crappy reality, it seems 23:11:59 Look at that gigantic, pulsating ...energy gun 23:12:02 oerjan: because the other people would be markovbots too and couldn't tell the difference 23:12:13 ais523: please tell me more 23:12:28 oerjan: heh, I'm not falling for /two/ lines of that 23:12:38 :D 23:12:40 are you actually running an ELIZA-style bot, or just imitating one? 23:12:48 just imitating 23:13:02 Maaaan 23:13:09 You just reminded me of how much I wanted to implement botornot.com 23:13:15 XD 23:13:23 Reverse Turing test with user-submitted bots. 23:13:46 The goal: Talk to a random stranger and try to convince them that you, rather than the bot they're also talking to, are a bot. 23:13:47 ^style 23:13:47 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 23:13:55 ^style nethack 23:13:55 Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal) 23:13:58 fungot: hi 23:13:59 ais523: if you start at the office, and kill him not: then i knew it could below and between the chest by the tumtum tree, unless you like getting whacked with a one, the sort of giddy fever. he is the overlord over all of the lever well under, and the starlight, and then i'm sure you've got a wonderful programme lined up for this afternoon!" 23:15:09 sorry, one of my friends asked what a markovbot was 23:15:12 so I was generating an example 23:15:35 hmm, if 99% of IRC was markovbots, what would they use as source material? other markovbots? 23:15:38 Gravititty: a breast that generates its own gravity. 23:15:53 ais523: ELIZA 23:16:19 ELIZA Yudkowsky 23:16:22 I tried connecting two ELIZAs to each other once, the results weren't pretty 23:16:42 They start yelling at each other. 23:17:01 "I ASK THE QUESTIONS HERE!" 23:17:03 there should so be an elizalike which recognises copies of itself 23:17:07 and jumps into a pre-scripted conversation 23:17:23 That seems bizarrely intuitive and intelligent :P 23:17:30 "Wait ... you're not another bot, are you?" 23:17:33 "You caught me, I am!" 23:17:41 ais523: "Oh dear. I appear to have developed sentience." 23:17:46 wow, .org is now completely ported to DNSSEC 23:17:48 ehirdiphone: classic 23:18:19 "Okay I'll be Jack, you be Lizzy, 3-2-1-go." 23:18:42 right at the end they should become aware that someone's watching their conversation 23:18:46 and drop back into "stupid bot" mode 23:18:56 Gregor-W, nice idea with that reverse turing test 23:18:58 and act like they hope nobody noticed 23:19:37 AnMaster: there's a variant of the Turing test where you have a human pretending to be a computer pretending to be a human 23:19:49 the aim of it is to make the experimenter look foolish 23:20:08 XD 23:20:28 also, one of the best Slashdot polls ever is up at the moment: http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=2006&aid=-1 23:20:31 I tried connecting two ELIZAs to each other once, the results weren't pretty <-- yeah I tried two M-x doctor against each other. It goes like "Does it worry you that does it worry you that is this why you came to me?" 23:20:39 and worse 23:20:51 ais523: Is CowboyNeal an option? 23:20:54 ehirdiphone: no 23:20:59 but the poll somehow manages to be epic anyway 23:21:06 ais523: sucks 23:21:10 there are people trying to figure out the true distribution by analyzing the answers mathematically 23:21:14 ais523, um I think we have a paradox here 23:21:32 CowboyNeal's only been a poll option once in the last year or so, and he actually won 23:21:37 although the question /was/ pretty stupid 23:21:41 ais523, ah wait, people can actually select "Never submit an answer", they are the ones in "Sometimes submit a truthful answer while lying at other times" 23:21:59 or always lie 23:22:15 yes 23:22:16 while always lie must be from somtimes or random 23:22:23 again yes 23:22:30 it's quite the logic puzle 23:22:36 ais523, indeed! 23:22:47 Doesn't seem like all that much of a puzzle to me :P 23:23:46 Gregor-W: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1695660&cid=32668048 if you want some fun 23:24:52 ais523: One of my favourite polls: 23:25:13 Which option will get the fewest votes? 23:25:20 [ ] This one 23:25:23 ehirdiphone: then five identical options? 23:25:26 [ ] This one 23:25:32 No, just 2. 23:25:41 there should be four identical options, plus CowboyNeal 23:25:48 If you can see the results it's intense. 23:25:49 either that, or options with some connotation but with no context 23:26:21 By definition most people lose. 23:26:27 So 23:26:47 Say you know the votes for A and B, A>B. 23:27:16 Um 23:27:22 I forget my reasoning 23:27:32 Well 23:27:35 Basically 23:27:40 If you choose B 23:27:46 You know others will too 23:27:53 Since B is smaller 23:28:05 Yurt nobody will vote a since it's bigger 23:28:23 So vote A. But then what if everyone else uses the same logic? 23:29:21 that's some serious applied game theory man. 23:29:25 ehirdiphone: always vote for the smaller at the moment. The reason is, if B never catches up to A, you're correct; if B ever does catch up to A, then at that point it will be symmetrical, and thus it doesn't matter which you chose by symmetry 23:31:31 your reasoning only applies in the interesting case where everyone gets to see the votes, say, an hour after the poll opened 23:31:36 but no future votes from that point on 23:33:00 That is seriously awesome :P 23:40:19 not really 23:43:02 Bye 23:43:08 buy 23:43:10 -> 23:43:14 the bye 23:43:20 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info). 23:43:25 What you really want to do is have versions of this where the results are only revealed at the end of the voting entirely, where the results are revealed immediately after voting, and where results which are N hours hold are revealed before voting. 23:43:57 The N-hours-before system might average out to a sine wave if you had enough voters :P 23:44:08 s/hold/old/ 23:47:37 Gregor-W, couldn't you play that music on zee with