00:00:54 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, hm small detail: it might look better if the "enhance" blocky effect starts from the enhancing level you are at. As it is, if you enhance about from halfway it will first go more blocky in that transition
00:01:45 <Gregor-W> I think I tried that at some point and didn't like it for some reason or another ... maybe just the effect wasn't as noticeable? Idonno. All these suggestions are things I could totally look at if I wasn't at work :P
00:02:14 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, well I'm trying to think of constructive things that might be feasible today
00:02:31 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, just write a note about it. Or a note about checking the log when you get home
00:03:23 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, btw do you store multiple images on the server at different zoom levels? Or does it download the whole image at full res locally at the start?
00:04:02 <AnMaster> I would recommend the later, especially if you get even more high res images. Yes I might help at some point. Don't really know anyone who could stage for stuff in the images though
00:04:04 <Gregor-W> It's essentially mipmapped, with the various zoom levels stored on the server. For one, zooming down the enormous source image is actually a really slow and awful procedure, and for two it's enormous :P
00:04:30 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, and the server sends a small section when at full zoom?
00:04:39 <AnMaster> hm I guess jpeg actually make that feasible
00:04:47 <Gregor-W> It's tiled, so you always request four tiles.
00:05:03 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, anyway, about how large? I calculated one panorama I made was about 60 MP
00:05:27 <Gregor-W> I'll check, again, when I'm not at work X-P
00:06:21 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, ah, thought you remembered give or take a few MP
00:06:43 <Gregor-W> I thought it was like 12MP, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'm off by a factor of two.
00:07:02 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, and yeah, a "magic" way to denoise would definitely fit the theme as I said before. And I have yet to find any visible seam ;P
00:08:41 <AnMaster> btw, actually extrapolating a crude image from a reflection in a shop window doesn't sound impossible. You could take an image with an item there and with it removed. Then the diff between them should give you some sort of image
00:08:45 <Gregor-W> Look at the front face of the building in the background, the second set of large windows from the left.
00:09:37 <Gregor-W> There's a noticeable discontinuous section.
00:10:06 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, could be fixed with shearing in gimp I suspect
00:10:20 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, that way you could move the seam to the brick wall from the window
00:10:27 <AnMaster> that way it would be less easy to notice
00:12:15 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, oh and denoise might well make stuff readable that wasn't before. And details in dark areas more visible
00:12:18 <Gregor-W> Well gee ... looka there. My online sound looper actually supports HTML5 too, it just doesn't use it and isn't smart enough to determine at runtime whether to use it.
00:12:39 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, do they play with getting info out of over/under exposed areas on CSI and such too?
00:12:45 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, if yes I have an idea
00:12:50 <Gregor-W> https://codu.org/projects/zee/webhg/index.cgi/file/tip/gaplesslooper/gaplesslooper.js <-- see variable glUseSM2
00:13:16 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: Not sure ... usually it's just assumed that the photo is somehow magically perfect. If you're thinking HDR, I'm thinking AAAAAAAHHHH
00:13:16 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, you commented it out according to a comment because it was so bad
00:13:32 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, I'm thinking enfuse not HDR
00:13:56 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, that is HDR without the 5 GB of 32-bit float per channel tiff
00:14:20 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, you can do exposure merging with enfuse, not just denoising
00:14:22 <Gregor-W> 32-bit? What are these, single-precision floats? SCREW THAT
00:14:50 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, I don't think even photoshop supports that!
00:15:08 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, also the developers didn't own IBM Roadrunner or whatever is fastest currently
00:15:31 <AnMaster> wow think of the panoramas you could stitch with something on TOP500
00:16:52 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, saw that gigapixel panorama?
00:17:12 <AnMaster> and automatic fetching more detail as you zoomed
00:17:17 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, I forgot where it was
00:17:27 <Gregor-W> Well, how many gigapixel panoramas can there be? :P
00:17:31 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, was a look from a balcony over some streets
00:17:57 <Gregor-W> There's a gigapixel-or-so panorama of (IIRC) the grand canyon, or certainly some canyon.
00:18:12 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, this one was from a balcony
00:18:23 <Gregor-W> A balcony not overlooking a canyon ;)
00:19:03 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, overlooking some streets
00:19:29 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, oh wait it was 13 GP iirc
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00:19:52 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, yes, like 13 of them
00:20:17 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, anyway you need ram if you are going to do this with hugin. How much do you have?
00:20:31 <AnMaster> ram is the most important bit. I can easily get things to swap trash
00:20:42 <Gregor-W> At home 4G. On my laptop which is all I have here a paltry 2G.
00:21:13 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, hm 4 GB is going to help. And I could possibly enlist the help of someone with 8 GB. But he has slow comcast cable
00:21:35 <Gregor-W> I could also misuse Purdue machines ^^
00:22:00 <Gregor-W> If I was really terrible I could misuse Microsoft machines, but they probably wouldn't appreciate me replacing the OS so *eh*
00:22:17 <ais523> Gregor-W: do you actually work at Microsoft?
00:23:03 <ais523> my personal theory is that MSR's purpose is to hire a bunch of the world's best and brightest people and give them interesting jobs which they enjoy and help society as a whole
00:23:10 <ais523> all for the purpose of preventing them working for Microsoft's competitors
00:23:21 <Gregor-W> ais523: You hit the nail on the head.
00:23:41 <Gregor-W> ais523: They don't care if they're super-productive for MS, they care that they're not super-productive for e.g. Sun.
00:23:58 <ais523> anyway, I want to post your whois info for the logs, just because they're so epic
00:24:07 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, anyway I prodded that person. I can't access his system atm. He is having router problems.
00:24:08 <ais523> [Whois] Gregor-W is 836b416f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.107.65.111 (proton.research.microsoft.com/131.107.65.111 - htt)
00:24:16 <AnMaster> but sometime during this summer
00:24:36 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, oh and it has dual xeon i7, so actual stitching won't take long ;)
00:24:55 <AnMaster> and hyperthreading. So 16 virtual cores
00:26:01 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, the issue I see here is that I you would need to take all the images in one location, you couldn't take some here and some there really. And you would need some friends who would act. I don't know anyone who I could enlist for that.
00:26:20 <Gregor-W> You don't need friends who would act.
00:26:28 <Gregor-W> You're looking for clues, not looking to catch people in the act (necessarily)
00:27:25 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, hm, So I would need to place stuff around? What sort of things are you thinking about. I don't think I could do bloody clothes easily ;P
00:29:00 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, btw a tip if you are going to use enfuse to denoise: select to fuse exposure stacks before stitching. Not the other way around. Unless you have loads and loads of ram
00:29:12 <AnMaster> since enfuse eats more ram than enblend
00:29:14 <Gregor-W> That's just the problem, thinking up storylines is step one, taking the photos comes from that.
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00:29:40 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, you want enfuse on smaller stuff then enblend on the denoised images
00:30:36 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, oh and align_image_stack should do a good job on a stack of photos just off by a pixel or so (which they will be unless you have a remote trigger for your camera!
00:30:58 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, and what is the nice planned story line you mentioned you had come up with
00:31:05 <AnMaster> I might be able to make valuable suggestions
00:31:21 <Gregor-W> To avoid flooding, I'll say it in PM
00:31:31 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, good idea, to avoid spoiling it for everyone too ;)
00:31:38 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, wait a sec, need to turn off +E
00:31:49 <AnMaster> since you are not idented with nickserv
00:31:52 <ais523> meh, #esoteric-blah was invented for that purpose
00:32:07 <ais523> "like #esoteric, just spammier"
00:39:46 <ais523> hmm, IRC is fun; I was in a discussion in another channel about the order in which the Pacman ghosts came in
00:39:53 <ais523> and stumbled across http://www.destructoid.com/blinky-inky-pinky-and-clyde-a-small-onomastic-study-108669.phtml when trying to find out
00:40:07 <ais523> if you were wondering where the names came from, there you go.
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00:47:31 <CakeProphet> I think an awful lot about queing theory and concurrency.
00:49:45 <AnMaster> requested to be said in here for log:
00:49:48 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, <AnMaster> Gregor-W if I didn't enhance while zooming in it could use the original level of zoom I had before
00:50:15 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, as in, up to the level you enhanced at it should use that level when zooming out from even more zoomed (but without enhancing)
00:51:51 <CakeProphet> and I think you could model concurrent relationships as a sort of space with some some sort of "transition rule" system... the most concrete example being cars on a road. The cars are the "actors" that have state (possibly FSM) on the resource space, the resource space is the road itself (the simplest model would just be a real number plane, but you could get more technical if you want to factor in physics), and the rules would b
00:51:54 <CakeProphet> essentially a fancier, concurrent cellular automata (that doesn't necessarily have cells. In the case of computer memory, it would)
00:52:52 <CakeProphet> I've got some notes for an esolang that explores this idea.
00:53:20 <CakeProphet> would be amazing to run on a 100 core machine. You could almost have a one-to-one relationship between cores and processes.
00:56:03 <CakeProphet> but yeah. That's my crazy idea for the day. If I refine it I might bring it up again to discuss it.
00:56:36 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, see /msg again. Had great idea for the ending of the game
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00:58:47 <cheater99> is there a facebook thing for linux or firefox that shows the 'notifications' button/menu? just like on the facebook page on the toolbar on top?
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01:06:41 <CakeProphet> hmmm... anyone know how to set the default behavior of nautilus so that it opens directories in tabs instead of new windows whenever I click on something in places or on the desktop?
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01:17:24 <CakeProphet> hahaha... it would be awesome if Nautilus allowed custom sorting information
01:17:50 <CakeProphet> like, I have a directory for all of my school work, organized by season and year. Would be awesome to "sort by season"
01:20:38 <CakeProphet> pah, writing a patch implies maintaining a patch.
01:21:43 <CakeProphet> when someone figures out a language that can automatically implement infinite backwards-compatability let me know.
01:32:34 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, you could take the patch upstream
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03:17:56 <Gregor> Key changes are the bane of my existence.
03:20:34 <oerjan> banes are generally associated with key changes in life
03:23:03 <oerjan> major changes more than minor ones
03:24:29 <oerjan> on the other hand, such changes can also open new doors
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03:48:37 <CakeProphet> So what's the most intersting Lisp out there at the moment?
03:48:45 <CakeProphet> Anything with pattern matching? lazy evaluation?
03:56:25 <Gregor> I wonder if it's safe to blindly use fdupes to hardlink files across several chroots ... :P
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04:03:29 <Sgeo__> Since when does fdupes actually hardlink anythig?
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04:18:10 <Gregor> Sgeo__: Since Debian made it useful.
04:18:19 <Gregor> Debian, per usual, is better than every other distro.
04:19:27 <Gregor> Ubuntu is just Debian minus the principles.
04:20:17 <Sgeo__> I'm not married to F/OSS principles
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04:21:00 <Gregor> I'm not "married" to it, but I'd rather use a distro with SOME kind of principles to it than Ubuntu's total lack of any.
04:22:01 <Sgeo__> Is that like saying "At least fundamentalist Christianity has a well-defined moral system"?
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04:29:48 <Gregor> fdupes is so slow when you throw it at gigs of data :P
04:37:19 <oerjan> well that's because it's all a sham. sir, you've been fduped!
04:54:59 <oerjan> now that is a _much_ harder question to answer.
05:03:22 <Gregor> There are no people on #esoteric .
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05:15:35 <zzo38> Once I heard someone was using complex numbers in accounting, so I tried, and failed, to figure out, but when doing so I succeeded at figuring out the use of matrices in accounting, and therefore I invented matrix accounting.
05:16:17 <zzo38> One of the rules is as follows: <BAL|FSV> = 0
05:16:33 <zzo38> Another one is this: $|FSV> = 1
05:17:34 <zzo38> I want to see if you understand any of these things
05:17:49 <oerjan> it would appear that the company is both solvent and not until you actually observe it
05:19:00 * oerjan guesses BAL is balance, and has no idea what FSV means
05:19:34 <zzo38> oerjan: Actually, matrix accounting has not much to do with quantum mechanics, except for the similar notation. FSV means "Fiscal State Vector".
05:19:57 <zzo38> |FSV> represents the current state of all accounts and currency units.
05:20:14 <zzo38> <BAL| is a covector representing the list of all accounts.
05:21:29 <oerjan> i still think the schrodinger company might be helpful for explaining the recent financial crisis
05:22:45 <zzo38> Here is a equation for a transaction: T - I = |Cash>$5.00 - |Sales>$5.00
05:23:18 <zzo38> Matrix accounting is actualy very useful for various things in my experience, one thing it is useful for is "what if" type questions.
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05:44:44 <zzo38> Do you like this equation? (This equation is only a simple transaction, there are also more complicated kinds where the effect on the accounts can vary)
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05:46:52 <oerjan> i'm not really interested in accounting
05:48:00 <zzo38> That's OK. Do these equations I listed make much sense to you?
05:49:28 <zzo38> (The reason I know some things about accounting is simply because I happened to take that class in school. It is useful to know if I run my own business. I also took marketing, but the marketing class made less sense to me.)
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05:52:33 <oklopol> zzo38: i have no idea what those mean
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05:57:53 <zzo38> <BAL|FSV> = 0 is the balance rule, which is that everything balances, for example, your assets on the left, liabilities and capital on the right, will balance. But this is more general
06:00:30 <oklopol> i guess i'm not very good at reverse-engineering, would have to know the exact definition of BAL and FSV
06:00:55 <oklopol> (at least i'm not good it when i have no idea what i'm looking for)
06:02:38 <oklopol> but anyway seems like accounting would be rather linear, so i can believe using linear transformations to describe whatever these rules might be about can be useful.
06:03:01 <Gregor> I just freed up 8GB on Codu by deleting entirely stupid things.
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06:03:42 <zzo38> $|FSV> = 1 is the currency units rule.
06:04:21 <zzo38> The exact meaning of <BAL| is that it is a covector with 1 in each position for each account.
06:04:38 <zzo38> The exact meaning of |FSV> is the accounts and the amounts of money for each account.
06:04:42 <oklopol> i have no idea what FSV could be even though you said what it represents
06:04:52 <Gregor> oklopol: 2GB of PHP session data that apparently PHP forgot to delete. 3GB of logs. 1GB from hardlinking files between my many chroots. Various other things.
06:05:24 <zzo38> <BAL| is a covector, |FSV> is a vector, therefore <BAL|FSV> is their scalar product, which the rule says must be equal to zero
06:05:27 <oklopol> just a vector of how much money on each account?
06:05:51 <oklopol> Gregor: okay those are pretty stupid
06:06:06 <oklopol> i thought you'd uploaded monkey porn or something
06:06:27 <Gregor> No, the monkey porn isn't being deleted, that's the vital data.
06:07:28 <oklopol> i'm not very good at understanding language either
06:09:47 <oklopol> so now my understanding is <BAL|FSV>=0 means total money in universe = 0
06:12:40 <oklopol> which i guess makes sense, still can't see what Cash and Sales are
06:14:02 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, I think you can know what <BAL| and |FSV> means now.
06:14:36 <oklopol> Gregor: i know we're just joking but i want to see the porn so bad it's hard not to ask you to link it.
06:15:55 <zzo38> Although one component of |FSV> must be the currency unit component which must be always 1, the corresponding component of <BAL| is zero. Other than that, yes <BAL| = (1,1,...,1) basically, if only accounts are considered. (You normally do not need to consider the currency unit component, but it is there.)
06:16:15 <zzo38> Also, $ is a covector for only the currency unit component.
06:17:43 <Gregor> oklopol: HAHA OF COURSE WE ARE JOKING and there's no reason for you to check your PM.
06:18:14 <zzo38> The $ does not mean $ a b = <a|b> in this context.
06:18:59 <oklopol> ooh "monkey poo in da zoo 2"
06:19:43 <oklopol> actually "$ is a covector for only the currency unit component" defines it completely
06:19:48 <zzo38> Please note that $ and <BAL| are orthogonal to each other, because they are really two separate things being joined together.
06:20:03 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes that does define $
06:21:09 <oklopol> i don't know what kind of input a transaction like T - I = |Cash>$5.00 - |Sales>$5.00 takes, and what it returns, account vector maybe?
06:21:42 <zzo38> All transactions take |FSV> on the right and transform |FSV> to their new value.
06:22:31 <zzo38> This simple transaction equation is simply where |Cash> and |Sales> are the counterparts to <Cash| and <Sales| which are like <BAL| but only for one account each
06:23:04 <oklopol> Gregor: do you have anything with anal?
06:23:30 <Gregor> oklopol: DOOD stop asking about animal porn on a public channel, people will think we're WEIRD. Keep it to /query
06:25:07 <zzo38> I would also prefer it if you would please refrain from asking about porn on a public channel, in fact it is probably the Freenode network guidelines, I think.
06:25:07 <fizzie> Not just public channel, a publicly *logged* channel
06:25:48 <oklopol> sorry, we'll try to keep our perversions in pm as Gregor suggested
06:25:59 <oklopol> we just really like monkeys
06:26:19 <Gregor> Oh, sorry, got a bit excited there.
06:26:21 <oklopol> |Cash>$5.00 - |Sales>$5.00 turns a vector into a scalar
06:26:29 <oklopol> T - I turns a vector into a vector
06:26:47 <oklopol> therefore my brain gets confused.
06:26:58 <zzo38> oklopol: No. Remember $ is a covector. Putting the vector on the left and covector on the right is a square matrix, or is a transformation.
06:27:22 <oklopol> oh $ is a vector there too
06:27:31 <oklopol> there i interpreted it as meaning 5 dollars :D
06:27:51 <oklopol> i figured you just used dollars as your scalars :-)
06:28:06 <zzo38> It *does* mean five dollars. That is why the $ is used to represent this covector!
06:28:26 <oklopol> (and constant multiplication would turn dollars into square dollars and so on, which we would identify with dollars...)
06:28:41 <oklopol> ah okay, after asking i did realize that might be the case.
06:28:50 <oklopol> so let's see if i can see why that makes sense
06:31:02 <oklopol> (not exactly much of a feat i admit :P)
06:31:37 <oklopol> to T adds 5 dollars to cash and removes 5 from sales
06:33:33 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, that is it. (The reason for the minus sign is for balance. Cash is plus and Sales is minus, so you are actually *increasing* the amount of Sales (and earning five dollars by sales revenue), but it still uses a minus sign.)
06:34:19 <zzo38> Often in accounting reports, some accounts are on the left, and some are on the right. I am using minus signs for the accounts on the right.
06:35:29 <zzo38> Now, I must ask you this: Has *anyone* ever used Dirac notation in accounting before?
06:37:09 <oklopol> well you can do all this without dirac notation, so i believe a better question is whether people have done it with matrices, and my understanding is K or something is used in that sorts of stuff for instance, and it's a matrix panguage
06:37:57 <oklopol> but do realize i have no understanding of the subject, so my understanding about what's used for it may not be very great either.
06:37:59 <zzo38> Of course you can do it without Dirac notation. I just found Dirac notation convenient to use here.
06:38:10 <zzo38> I would like to know if anyone has ever used matrices in accounting before, though, too!
06:39:37 <oklopol> well it might be convenient in your opinion, but i mean you can do this without dirac notation *by changing a few characters* so whether people would use dirac notation or not might be more about how much qm they know than about how convenient they like their notation.
06:40:33 <oklopol> well dunno, i have to go to uni, actually i should've left an hour ago but i wanted to learn about accounting because i wanna be a businessman when i grow up so i can buy a monkey farm.
06:41:48 <zzo38> Also, something unrelated to matrix accounting now: http://www.lysator.liu.se/~jc/hacks/brainfuck.xslt
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07:41:32 <AnMaster> <oerjan> on the other hand, such changes can also open new doors -- it can be a portal to a new life?
07:41:49 <AnMaster> Gregor, thanks for liking my idea
07:42:03 <AnMaster> Gregor, you can twiddle parameters but probably not needed
07:42:17 <Gregor> With CHDK, I can make my camera do most of the work for me too :)
07:42:45 <AnMaster> Gregor, ooh you can do the "change focus of image" stuff they did in CSI or something like that once. But that needs a remote trigger most certainly and it tends to increase noise
07:42:58 <AnMaster> Gregor, what I'm talking about is exposure merging
07:43:18 <Gregor> Canon Hacker's Development Kit
07:43:25 <Gregor> It's a cool alt firmware for Canon digital cameras.
07:44:17 <AnMaster> Gregor, anyway, enfuse can with different parameters try to merge where image is sharpest instead
07:44:33 <AnMaster> Gregor, it is however tricky to get right
07:44:57 <Gregor> Dern laptop, I'm swap-thrashing.
07:45:11 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh you are using enfuse I gather? ;P
07:45:35 <AnMaster> Gregor, enfuse makes me feel I'm in the future. But it also makes me very aware of that my laptop is not
07:47:04 <fizzie> It has a very simple sharpness-measuring thing, IIRC. Basically just a contrast measure.
07:49:34 <AnMaster> Gregor, I'm sure fizzie can use some high end cluster to do this
07:49:41 <AnMaster> like he did when generating some fugot dict
07:51:01 <Gregor> On this one test picture, something in the process is making the edges all black, even though they're clear in the original ...
07:51:15 <Gregor> (I'm just fusing four photos of the same scene right now)
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07:52:08 <AnMaster> Gregor, um. How strange. Though did you align the images before? Even half a pixel movement or such must be corrected before fusing
07:52:27 <Gregor> They're aligned perfectly.
07:52:48 <AnMaster> Gregor, used align_image_stack ?
07:53:21 <AnMaster> I would use align_image_stack -p
07:53:29 <AnMaster> then use hugin to set enfuse then use that
07:53:44 <fizzie> There are some programs that are explicitly for extended-DOF image merging, those might be smarter. Though Helicon Focus at least is commercial. CombineZ (at least some version) is GPL but Windows-only.
07:54:12 <fizzie> Depth-of-field. Focus-merging.
07:54:36 <Gregor> They're aligned, the problem is with exposure setting, not alignment.
07:54:44 <Gregor> Although actually it's just the original was overexposed and it's overcompensating.
07:55:18 <AnMaster> Gregor, let me find you the relevant parameter to twiddle
07:55:21 <fizzie> It's funny how photographers try to extend DOF, while 3D renderers/raytracers try to fake in a limited DOF.
07:56:03 <AnMaster> Gregor, twiddling with the parameters --saturation-weight=WEIGHT --exposure-weight=WEIGHT might help
07:56:38 <AnMaster> Gregor, values are floats in the closed interval [0,1]
07:56:56 <fizzie> For simple noise-reduction, I've usually just done align_image_stack -a align inputs ; enfuse ... align*.tif ; rm align*.tif without bothering to involve Hugin. But any way you prefer it, of course.
07:58:03 <Gregor> I just tried again and it got it right :P
07:58:32 <AnMaster> Gregor, anyway this is definitely a form of enhancing that the game should have IMO
07:58:58 <fizzie> Left as an execise for the player.
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08:03:37 <fizzie> "Proof by intimidation: 'Trivial.'"
08:04:27 <fizzie> "Proof by appeal to intuition: Cloud-shaped drawings frequently help here."
08:04:43 <fizzie> (One) list at http://www.onlinemathlearning.com/math-jokes-mathematical-proofs.html
08:05:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, also disproof by convenience (forgot where I heard this): "If that was true we wouldn't be able to do the sums!"
08:06:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you get the 'Proof by Tessellation: "This proof is just the same as the last."' ?
08:07:08 <AnMaster> I thought tessellation was some 3D thingy
08:10:09 <fizzie> It's also a tiling pattern with no gaps, but I'm not sure about the name either.
08:10:43 <fizzie> (In addition to the usual 3D graphics polygon-splitting meaning.)
08:11:34 <AnMaster> somehow "also" in your first line indicated the "in addition to" bit already ;)
08:12:03 <AnMaster> "Proof by cumbersome notation: Best done with access to at least four alphabets and special symbols. " <-- no, that is just standard math
08:12:30 <fizzie> I guess it's from the "made out of identical shapes" bit of http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Tessellation.html but it's a bit of a scretch.
08:12:45 <AnMaster> when thinking about how much would be feasible to combine
08:15:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, I always felt that references to not yet published papers shouldn't be allowed
08:19:35 <fizzie> Well, it depends. If it's an already-accepted journal article that will just take a year to go through the publishers machinations, I do think you can stick an "in press" citation. But referring a completely non-existing paper is a different thing.
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12:03:53 <Sgeo__> Did GreaseMonkey just call all IRC clients "scripts"?
12:04:26 <Sgeo__> Or do mIRC scripts have a tendency to get themselves mentioned in default quit messages?
12:04:37 <Sgeo__> (I can't imagine, say, XChat or irssi scripts being so malicious)
12:05:47 <AnMaster> should I put up with slow computer, or should I try to cross compile a kernel
12:06:16 <Sgeo__> For the past hour or so, I have been in pain
12:06:16 <AnMaster> which is least painful: unpacking and compiling a linux kernel on a pentium3 or should cross compiling from amd64
12:06:35 <AnMaster> Sgeo__, alvedon or whatever it is called usually helps for me
12:07:14 <Sgeo__> I took Tylenol (paracetamol) about an hour ago
12:07:40 <Sgeo__> Let me clarify: I only started keeping track of time when I took it
12:08:48 <Sgeo__> Can I just say that I love modern medicine?
12:14:03 <Sgeo__> There is a group on Facebook "Over Dosing on Ibuprofen and Extra Strength Tylenol! :D"
12:14:36 <Sgeo__> There's an ad "I love programming"
12:14:51 <Sgeo__> It has someone holding a sign saying "Will code HTML for food"
12:15:03 <Sgeo__> http://www.facebook.com/iloveprogramming
12:16:12 <Sgeo__> o.O there's a "What's your favorite language?" thing. Several people said PHP
12:18:42 <Sgeo__> Then again, there's some assembly love
12:19:13 <Deewiant> "PHP, MySQL, HTML5, CSS3, and Javascript"
12:19:49 <Deewiant> But then, the group pic apparently depicts an HTML coder
12:19:50 <AnMaster> <Sgeo__> I took Tylenol (paracetamol) about an hour ago <-- iirc that is the same thing as in alvedon
12:21:20 <Sgeo__> Maybe I shouldn't be staring at a screen so soon after a headache
12:22:19 <Sgeo__> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=288817&id=124438437575957
12:22:47 <Sgeo__> Looks like an old pic. IE7, and no Chrome
12:43:19 <Sgeo__> Going to watch some SGA
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13:49:34 <oerjan> <Gregor> Future work. <-- Past hopelessly broken.
13:56:48 <oerjan> <Sgeo__> There is a group on Facebook "Over Dosing on Ibuprofen and Extra Strength Tylenol! :D"
13:56:57 <oerjan> is the smiley included in the group name?
13:57:55 <oklopol> which groups can smileys be embedded in? they are symmetric at least so i don't see why that wouldn't work
13:59:14 <oerjan> THAT WAS _NOT_ WHAT I MEANT
14:00:17 <Sgeo__> How many symmetric smilies (left-right) are there?
14:00:53 <oklopol> well that's easy, the number of orbits is just the average number of fixed points of the group elements
14:01:30 <oklopol> my references are really obscure, if only these were at all funny!
14:01:34 <oerjan> Sgeo__: so, _is_ the smiley included?
14:02:10 <oerjan> oklopol: are you secretly NonsensicalAnalogy from reddit?
14:02:40 <Sgeo__> Yes, the smiley is included in the name.
14:02:49 <Sgeo__> I am NOT happy about that group existing.
14:03:20 <oerjan> Sgeo__: i've read overdosing on tylenol (paracetamol) is _not_ a laughing matter
14:03:39 <oerjan> a _very_ painful way of dying
14:04:02 <oklopol> then interesting to group it with ibuprofen
14:04:07 <oerjan> it takes a week for your liver to break down, or something
14:04:52 <oerjan> and after a day there is _nothing_ medicine can do to prevent it
14:04:55 * Sgeo__ knows little about ibuprofen
14:05:39 * Sgeo__ uses Tylenol, but nowhere near the dosage printed
14:06:09 <Sgeo__> It says 2 pills every 6 hours, I pretty much never do more than 1 every 24
14:06:18 <Sgeo__> erm, not sure about the 6 hours
14:07:35 <oerjan> well it says 1-2 pills up to four times a day
14:09:11 <oerjan> (this is my ibux (ibuprofen) i'm talking about)
14:11:18 <oklopol> only the weak have headaches.
14:11:26 <oklopol> nowadays i have headaches almost every week
14:11:38 <oerjan> i've never claimed to be strong, that i can recall
14:11:48 <oklopol> mainly because i hate taking the drugs, and then i just get nothing done
14:12:27 <oklopol> oerjan: that's just one of my trademark ways of expressing things
14:12:46 <oerjan> if you are having them every week, then i'd imagine the first tip is to stop whatever is making you have them
14:13:17 <oklopol> i believe that's sleeping highly irregularly and eating too much, i'm full almost around the clock
14:13:44 <oklopol> easier said than done though, especially as it's not really a problem so i don't have that much incentive.
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14:14:58 * oerjan starts adjusting his inner image of oklopol from being a thin guy
14:15:17 <oklopol> i'm 180 and i weigh 85, but i look thinner than that
14:15:39 <oklopol> i'm not really thin, but i'm not fat either, yet
14:16:27 <oklopol> before my dad had his heart attack, he used to weigh something like 110, and had been that way for ages, same with my second order father
14:17:32 <oklopol> also my uncle died at like 40, some kind of clot in his brain and the guy just suddenly collapsed
14:17:36 * oerjan used to be not really think but not fat either
14:18:35 <oerjan> well i'm not _very_ fat yet
14:19:02 <oklopol> Gregor: op13 is great btw, first one of yours i hear i don't feel needs tiny changes every now and then (i feel that way about most music)
14:20:20 <oklopol> most of my own music requires tons of corrections imo, but i rarely do it, once a part has been written, changing it is murder.
14:21:13 <oerjan> "of note", notes, right?
14:21:34 <oklopol> oh well yes that *was* what i meant
14:21:54 <oklopol> i thought it was a reference to something else
14:23:22 <oklopol> oh hmm yes looks familiar, not familiar enough i guess
14:23:49 <oerjan> there are even google hits for "murders of note"
14:24:11 <oerjan> http://www.snarlyboodle.com/famous-unsolved-murders/ (but for some reason it failed to load for me)
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14:28:35 <oklopol> Gregor: although the parts i most like are from 12 i think
14:30:41 <oklopol> (and yes, i know you prefer useful data over vague goodness assessments, but i'm not feeling particularly musical atm)
14:31:16 <oerjan> wait, music involves useful data? </ducks>
14:32:19 <oklopol> while you were joking, i will answer seriously, by useful data i mean an attempt at explaining where exactly my opinion comes from, that would at least make me a slightly more usable statistic.
14:34:06 <oerjan> ah but don't you know that people decide their opinions first and make up / delude themselves into thinking they had reasons afterwards?
14:34:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, there are music based esolangs
14:35:05 * oklopol has an element in every open set atm, and doesn't get the joke
14:35:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, useful data in music: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=music
14:35:50 <oerjan> oklopol: well you're better than AnMaster, he seems not to have realized it _was_ a joke
14:36:31 <oerjan> (the joke was a vague insult that music is all about vague goodness)
14:36:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, ... you didn't realise what I said was a joke as well? Or was that a meta joke you just said?
14:36:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: YOU WILL NEVER KNOW
14:36:57 <oklopol> oh umm you mean what AnMaster said was a joke? that's what i didn't get, but then realized he didn't mean it as a joke, was an answer to an earlier thing
14:37:20 <oklopol> so i did get your joke, just not the one that wasn't one
14:37:25 <oerjan> ok now i don't get it any more
14:37:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, it was a joke answer to oerjan's joke!
14:38:33 <oklopol> yeah sorry i typed slowly and didn't read what you said
14:38:50 <oklopol> but answer to the useful data thing?
14:39:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, but explaining a joke ruins it
14:39:09 <oklopol> not the one to which it makes no sense as an answer, got it
14:39:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, but if that is what you want, just ask
14:40:19 <oerjan> i would say we have ruined the jokes thoroughly at this point
14:40:31 <oklopol> i wish i knew more math terms
14:40:45 <oklopol> substituting definitions for them is fun
14:41:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, we could go on and explain the explaining
14:41:41 <oklopol> i could've substituted the definition of a term in a term algebra
14:41:47 <oklopol> ...that might've been a bit long
14:41:49 <AnMaster> hm should check how many iterations of that they are at currently
14:41:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: poor collector guy today
14:42:05 <oklopol> oerjan: well i meant like the element in open set thing
14:42:17 <oerjan> jane goodall can be so mean
14:42:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, personally I don't think he is poor. It is obvious now isn't it?
14:42:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, all the strange things he has collected for
14:43:02 <oklopol> do you contain an open ball around all your points to the idea of talking like this
14:43:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm didn't he work for the nigerian finance minister at one point? or am i confusing him with shakespeare
14:43:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, you know, that sentence really sounds weird out of context
14:44:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: i decided to revel in that fact
14:44:17 <oklopol> i guess it's not the way to speak that contains finite supremums and contains all downward cones of its points.
14:44:38 <oklopol> i think i failed to convey the latter one :D
14:44:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, I completely lost you
14:45:26 * oerjan does not recall the latter term
14:45:35 <oklopol> AnMaster: the game is to take sentences with mathematical terms and substitute them for their definitions.
14:45:59 <AnMaster> oh you were discussing something else
14:45:59 <oklopol> well i can easify it, wait a sec
14:46:36 <oklopol> i guess it's not the way to speak that is closed under addition and multiplication by any scalar.
14:46:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, so you mean you take x ^ 3 = 3 and turns it into x * x * x = 3 ?
14:47:19 <oerjan> oklopol: the vector space way to speak? now you are making no sense!
14:47:28 <oklopol> a bit like that but not really
14:47:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, was that to me or oerjan?
14:47:45 <oklopol> oerjan: urgh scalar was a bad term, i'll try one more time
14:48:15 <oklopol> i guess it's not the way to speak that is a subset closed under addition and multiplication by any element of the superset.
14:49:01 <cpressey> Hey, that's almost as good as speaking Navajo.
14:49:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, what was your original sentence?
14:50:16 <oklopol> not the ideal way to speak
14:50:31 <oklopol> first order theoretic definition (badly worded), then algebraic
14:50:37 <oerjan> oklopol: ok i didn't recall that the lattice version was called that as well
14:50:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, ... I was not playing the game, I was making a meta question about it.
14:50:39 <oklopol> (well for rings in particular)
14:50:58 <oklopol> AnMaster: i thought i answered
14:51:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, "<oklopol> first order theoretic definition (badly worded), then algebraic" that line?
14:51:12 <AnMaster> or "<oklopol> not the ideal way to speak"?
14:51:19 <oerjan> first order? i finally recognized it as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_(order_theory)
14:51:36 <oklopol> err first order-theoretic ...
14:51:59 <oklopol> add an article if you like
14:52:18 <AnMaster> I think I'll be a spectator here. This obfuscation is way out of my league :P
14:53:51 <oklopol> (from the "pi is wrong" article)
14:54:54 <oklopol> or don't you have the sets containing every point at at most a given distance for it?
14:55:32 <cpressey> AnMaster, are you sure that's the 90-degree approach?
14:55:38 <cpressey> See, I can only do really lame ones.
14:55:53 * AnMaster defines radians in terms of degrees to annoy the mathematicians
14:56:00 <oklopol> you should've sub'd approach too :P
14:56:23 <cpressey> oklopol, as I said, I can only do really lame ones.
14:56:47 <cpressey> If "approach" is a maths term, it is WAY outside my knowledge.
14:56:49 <oerjan> oklopol: i wish to officially add all limit points to this game
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14:58:11 <oklopol> okay my response to that will be completely incomprehensible, but i'll have to check this one ->
14:58:36 <cpressey> It's a good generator of word salad, though. "AnMaster, are you sure that's the 90-degree tend to?"
14:58:42 <AnMaster> cpressey, I fail to reverse engineer your one
15:00:53 <oklopol> oerjan: that's not at all, when considered a set of disjoint intervals, such that if an instance is in the language, then there must be an interval in it such that the maximum witness of x is in that interval.
15:01:11 <oklopol> *must be an interval in the set
15:01:29 <AnMaster> cpressey, wait, "90 degree approach" can't be a substitute for "right way"? I hope it isn't
15:01:47 <oerjan> thank god you gave the translation
15:02:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, you couldn't figure it out either?
15:02:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway it can't be that one
15:02:18 <AnMaster> since it could mean "left" as well
15:02:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'm talking about oklopol's last one
15:03:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, depends on which way your you define positive rotation. Clockwise or counterclockwise.
15:03:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: a 90 degree angle is "right", no left option there
15:03:33 <cpressey> No one calls them "left triangles"
15:03:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway it doesn't work on a sphere afaik?
15:03:56 <oklopol> left sets! i saw them when checking up that definition
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15:04:11 <oerjan> AnMaster: what doesn't work?
15:04:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, right angle in non-euclidean geometry doesn't have to be 90° afaik?
15:04:55 <oerjan> the difference from 180 is the integral of curvature in the area inside the triangle, iirc
15:05:50 <AnMaster> I might completely misremember of course
15:05:51 <oerjan> i.e. for a sphere it's proportional to the area
15:06:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: right angle is still 90, it's _locally_ euclidean and the angle is a very local property near the intersection
15:07:44 <oklopol> so left set, it is what i recalled, if L \in NP then there's a polynomial p and a language A \in P such that given the right witness of size p(|x|) A calculates whether x is in L in time p(|x|), then we define Left(A, p) = {(x, y) | x \in {0, 1}^*, y \in {0, 1}^p(|x|), and there is a w \in {0, 1}^p(|x|) such that w>=y and (x, w) \in A}
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15:08:17 <oklopol> pairs containing words in the language, and strings that are to the left of some proofs for them
15:08:25 <oklopol> *proofs for the word in the language
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15:08:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, there are other variants than spheres tough? What was the name of the one where the triangle angle sum was less than 180 instead?
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15:09:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: i suspect that may be hyperbolic geometry?
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15:09:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, quite overrated of course ;)
15:10:07 <oklopol> the hyperbolic plane has wang tiles too, and turns out the tiling problem is undecidable there too
15:10:59 <cpressey> Do infinite binary trees have undecidable tilings?
15:11:19 <oklopol> if some color can't be continued, remove it from your set
15:11:25 <oklopol> repeat until all can be continued
15:11:32 <oklopol> and then you can tile any way you like
15:12:20 <oklopol> in other words, for the cayley graphs of free finitely generated free monoids and groups the tiling problem is decidable
15:13:33 <oklopol> in the free abelian groups the problem has been completely solved (trivial once you know what the case with Z^2 is), but afaik this is pretty much all that's known about tiling cayley graphs
15:14:36 <oklopol> well, an interesting triviality: if a finitely generated subgroup is undecidable (that is, its tiling problem is), then so is the group
15:14:59 <oklopol> this is because we can have sort of wires that make the group transmit stuff between the elements of the subgroup
15:16:49 <oklopol> for homomorphisms, neither direction is true, because homomorphisms add rather nonlocal structure (a homomorphism essentially identifies elements, and then identifies some more until the operations of the algebra start making sense again)
15:17:18 <oklopol> btw if this doesn't make sense, i should probably warn everybody i'm not trying to teach, i just really like talking about this.
15:18:04 <oklopol> well at least i think neither direction is true, that is, if X is mapped onto Y with a homom, i don't think the decidabilities of either imply the other
15:18:14 <oklopol> or wait i have to check that
15:19:00 <oklopol> okay so... free -> anything, if X is decidable, we can't say anything about Y, Z^2 -> Z so if Y is decidable, we can't say anything about X
15:19:22 <oklopol> (Z is decidable, Z^2 is undecidable, free is decidable)
15:19:41 <oklopol> maybe i should consider doing something else for a while
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15:24:21 <cpressey> I wonder if there are certain infinite graphs which are only slightly more complex than binary trees, but not a full plane either, for which there are undecidable tilings. I would bet there are. (it's possibly implied by what oklopol just said, but there's no way I can wrap my head around all that)
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16:12:30 <AnMaster> cpressey, how do you mean infinite magnet?
16:12:51 <cpressey> Just checking that you're paying attention.
16:13:48 <AnMaster> cpressey, usually "Just checking that you're paying attention" means "oops I did an error but I don't want to admit it" in my experience
16:17:48 <cpressey> In my personal experience, I have almost never heard people say that. If they want your attention, they whack a table with a yardstick.
16:17:56 <CakeProphet> oops I did an error but I don't want to admit it.
16:20:46 * cpressey wonders why AnMaster keeps referring to BSD's Fast File System
16:31:55 <AnMaster> cpressey, no it is an onemato<whatever> sound
16:32:10 <oklopol> i thought you meant "for fuck's sake"
16:32:20 <oklopol> or were you not aware that's what it means
16:32:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, that's an alternative explanation.
16:33:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, which I do know about
16:33:31 <AnMaster> however the sound you mentally make when you feel like using "for fuck's sake" is basically "ffs"
16:33:46 <AnMaster> so they happen to end up with the same meaning basically
16:54:16 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/JXIe?make -- heh, that was messy. (I wanted it to keep the smaller of the files produced by "bzip2 -9" and "7z a -tbzip2 -mx=9".)
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17:06:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, $(wc -c ...) on each file then if [[ $a -gt $b ]] basically?
17:08:06 <fizzie> I don't know, I just reached for Perl when it turned out there was no built-in bash way to get the size.
17:08:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, well du -b or wc -c are the ones I would think of. iirc du -b is a GNU extension though
17:09:31 <AnMaster> (du without -b would give you in multiple of 512 bytes iirc, and rounded up to block size of fs)
17:10:06 <AnMaster> I wonder why there is no kernel 2.6.34.1 yet
17:10:20 <AnMaster> usually it doesn't take this long for the first patch level release to show up
17:10:20 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: Why perl? what Would Larry Wall Do?
17:10:32 <fizzie> The variable-swap ("($k,$s)=($s,$k)") is also perhaps cleaner in Perl. I wouldn't want to write an "if [[ ... ]]; then mv bzip2-x x; rm 7z-x; else mv 7z-x x; rm bzip2-x; fi" which is what I'd need.
17:10:55 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, what would Guido van Rossum do though?
17:11:16 <AnMaster> not that I agree with him. Just showing how absurd your argument was ;P
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17:11:30 <fizzie> Python doesn't feel so naturally onelinerable.
17:11:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm no you wouldn't need that in _bash_
17:11:59 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: I think you take our conversations too directly. At least as of late.
17:11:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, and you aren't doing posix sh anyway since then you would use [ ... ] not [[ ... ]]
17:12:06 <CakeProphet> I have been a bit more facetious than usual.
17:12:58 <fizzie> How would bash help in avoiding having to repeat the names? Is there a clever variable-swap in?
17:13:11 <Sgeo__> FUTURAMAFUTURAMAFUTURAMAFUTURAMAFUTUAMA
17:13:36 <fizzie> Sounds vaguely Japanese.
17:14:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I can think of several possible ways that could work. Haven't implemented any of them completely in my head yet
17:14:42 <CakeProphet> fizzie: I've done some pretty ridiculous one liners in Python with generator expressions.
17:15:01 <AnMaster> the third indirect variable, the forth a separate bash function.
17:15:03 <CakeProphet> for filesystem access and string handling... no Python is not quite as a one-linery
17:15:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think the variable indirection is probably the cleanest one
17:15:43 <fizzie> I think I'll stay in my Perl swap, thank you.
17:15:50 <CakeProphet> I wonder how Ruby fairs. I only know a little about it, but it borrows a lot from Perl so I bet it's good for these kinds of things.
17:15:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, but perl has more than one way to do it as well!
17:16:17 <fizzie> It's not like anyone's going to see this. (Well, assuming I'd stop pasting it around.)
17:16:18 <Sgeo__> Ruby has too many similar, but not identical, ways to do things
17:16:36 <Sgeo__> IIRC, there's a subtle difference between begin/end and {/}
17:17:20 <AnMaster> I can't imagine why a language would have more than one way to create a block of expressions/statements
17:17:53 <AnMaster> don't know it, guess I'll take a look later
17:17:53 <CakeProphet> I don't remember how it's capitalized. I think it's Io.
17:18:35 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: Pretty nifty. Suffers from a lack of a community, but it is very "pure" feeling.
17:19:07 <AnMaster> though bash too has more than one way. but at least the semantics doesn't differ as such. It would be possible to replace if ...; then ... fi with [[ ... ]] && { .. }
17:19:11 <AnMaster> well else would be a bit harder
17:19:12 <CakeProphet> or Smalltalk, but with more conventional syntax.
17:19:40 <CakeProphet> but yeah... the different blocks in io control how the block is scoped. Lexical and dynamic.
17:21:09 <CakeProphet> well, sort of. It's "methods" and "blocks".
17:21:20 <CakeProphet> but they're both block-like anonymous things in io
17:21:22 <AnMaster> I really dislike dynamic scoping. There is no real benefit from it. Sure it allows more code obfuscation and some quite impressive hacks... but still
17:21:51 <AnMaster> that is one of the main things I dislike with bash scripting. That and the tricks you have to do to return a string
17:22:33 <CakeProphet> one of the things I really like about io is it has optional lazy arguments. Basically give you lisp macro features.
17:22:55 <CakeProphet> the method function is how you define methods, for example. method(arg1, arg2, ..., code)
17:22:56 <AnMaster> caller() { local foo="bar"; callee quux foo; echo "$foo" } callee() { printf -v "$2" "%s" "$1"; }
17:23:11 <AnMaster> that is one of the _least_ messy ways to return a string without $() in bash
17:23:22 <AnMaster> and $() has the issue of running in a subshell
17:23:36 <AnMaster> so an changes to global variables would be lost after returning
17:24:22 <AnMaster> yes "local" in bash means "won't be visible to your own callers" but it will still be visible to your callees
17:24:22 <cpressey> Why anyone writes anything in bash is beyond me.
17:24:47 <AnMaster> cpressey, I wrote an modular irc bot in bash. Reasons: 1) why not? 2) just because I can
17:25:04 <AnMaster> supports loading/unloading modules at runtime of course
17:25:04 <CakeProphet> hmmm... but in io it's not /really/ dynamic scoping. The only thing that's dynamically scoped is proto and self.
17:25:21 <AnMaster> cpressey, https://launchpad.net/envbot
17:25:47 <AnMaster> since you can't easily wait on more than one fd in bash at the same time.
17:26:22 <AnMaster> easily as in, "without an external helper program, or loading a *.so into bash"
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17:27:32 <AnMaster> cpressey, now I wonder if you will look at that code or not hm
17:27:48 <cpressey> CakeProphet: How 'bout a block structure which takes which names should be dynamically scoped as arguments, and the rest are lexically scoped. Like: begin(self,proto) ... end
17:28:47 <AnMaster> cpressey, it uses a lot of less well known features of bash :) Such as extended posix regex matching, the /dev/tcp virtual device of bash (compile time option, debian turn it off for unknown reason, but you can use one of the other backends, like netcat, socat, gnutls-cli or openssl s_client)
17:28:52 <fizzie> AnMaster: For pure perversity, maybe I should instead: perl -e '%s = map {-s, $_} ("bzip2-$@", "7z-$@"); ($$k, $$d) = map {$$s{$$_}} sort keys %s; rename $$k, "$@"; unlink $$d;'
17:29:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, so I can't tell if that is better or worse
17:29:25 <fizzie> It has a great feature in that it may break if the file sizes are of different lengths.
17:29:35 <fizzie> (Because "sort" by default sorts lexicographically.)
17:29:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, well don't use that then
17:30:24 <fizzie> That's "sort { $a <=> $b } ...", which is a lot longer.
17:30:24 <AnMaster> cpressey, oh and I did implement befunge93 in bash
17:30:29 <AnMaster> but I have no clue where that code is any more
17:30:33 <fizzie> Especially with the double-$s from the Makefile embedding.
17:31:04 <fizzie> I started a Befunge93 in sed, and made a working playfield and some arithmetics, but never finished it. :/
17:31:08 <AnMaster> cpressey, I got stuck while trying to do 98 due to the large funge space and server other reasons
17:31:22 <AnMaster> and stack stack looked like a pain too
17:31:32 <AnMaster> at least if you want to avoid eval at all costs
17:31:45 <AnMaster> which I did back then, not sure why
17:33:36 <fizzie> The playfield fetch code in sed is great: http://sprunge.us/GBAX
17:33:51 <fizzie> I'm not sure how a put in that data-structure would've looked like.
17:34:37 <fizzie> Yes; a non-fixed-size playfield would be even worse.
17:35:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, bash has one dimensional sparse arrays at least. Well nowdays it has assoc arrays too but it didn't back then
17:35:20 <fizzie> Well, not necessarily if you just made a list of cells and regex-searched in it, but that probably wouldn't be very fast.
17:35:47 <AnMaster> that is why envbot contains a implementation of such functionality in bash using normal arrays and constructed variable names (like arr_<array name>_<element name>)
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17:36:08 <AnMaster> of course that breaks on spaces and what lot so you have to be careful I did that by first converting it to hex values iirc
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17:36:17 <AnMaster> using a little known feature of printf in bash
17:36:29 <AnMaster> which was at that point undocumented even, has been documented since iirc
17:38:34 <AnMaster> hm trying to remember the syntax
17:39:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, notice the single quote in front of A
17:39:23 <AnMaster> that single quote and it's effects with %d
17:39:37 <cpressey> Given the choice between bash and sed, I'd pick awk.
17:39:52 <AnMaster> cpressey, you know that is less esoteric
17:40:41 <cpressey> I don't write in esolangs, I just design them.
17:40:59 <cpressey> Only exception: example programs for my own esolangs.
17:41:02 <AnMaster> cpressey, you should take a look at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~anmaster/envbot/anmaster-trunk/annotate/head:/lib/hash.sh (note since bash 4.0 this whole file would not be needed)
17:41:28 <AnMaster> but bash 4.0 wasn't released when that was written
17:41:48 <CakeProphet> I kind of want to make a scripting engine from io to Erlang
17:41:53 <cpressey> I am still at a loss for why anyone would do that. Write non-obfuscated code in bash, I mean.
17:42:16 <CakeProphet> because I'll be working with some guys that are vaguely interested in programming but have never touched it really.
17:42:32 <fizzie> Ooh, I found a recursive Fibonacci with decimal-number arithmetics (well, addition) in sed.
17:42:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://sprunge.us/bdAe
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17:43:28 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Oi, I don't know how well Erlang and/or Io would work with virtually-non-programmers. Maybe alright.
17:43:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, sed needs a macro language. That seems like a lot of repeating code
17:43:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe m4+sed would be the ultimate evil combination?
17:44:10 <CakeProphet> cpressey: maybe Lua or Python would be better suited?
17:44:27 <fizzie> AnMaster: Sounds very horrible. But yes, the correspoding code written in binary is a lot shorter, and then you can very trivially convert that to hex for a moderately human-readable output.
17:44:28 <cpressey> CakeProphet: That's the conventional wisdom, anyway.
17:44:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, err what do you mean written in binary?
17:45:08 <oklopol> fizzie: you found a file that says "(C) 2003 Heikki Kallasjoki <fizban@iki.fi>"?
17:45:08 <fizzie> Written to use binary numbers internally, instead of decimals.
17:45:15 <oklopol> you could've found an old program
17:45:35 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, it was in ~/src/archived_prog/_/sed/.
17:45:46 <oklopol> sorry i didn't remember years exist
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17:47:01 <fizzie> There's also a program that claims to be a "statusline utility for vt510 terminal" but I have no clue what it's supposed to do.
17:47:28 <fizzie> I vaguely remember that with the right termcap, screen could utilize the hard status line just fine without any additional applications.
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17:50:41 <oklopol> fizzie: the reason i asked was my interesting brain decided to assume what happened was that you had a text editor that you've set to automatically add a copyright thingie to whatever code you open, and you hadn't realized it added one to that.
17:50:51 <oklopol> rather logical don't you think
17:51:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, eh? like a minibuffer in hardware or such? Or line as in wire?
17:51:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: The terminal has this line that's not part of the accessible-by-normal-cursor-motion-commands screen area.
17:51:43 <fizzie> It might even have been two lines high.
17:52:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, you are old enough to have worked with that sort of "terminal"?
17:52:23 <AnMaster> or did you do it when newer stuff was around?
17:52:44 <AnMaster> I mean, using hardware terminal
17:52:48 <fizzie> Oh, I just had one at home around 2002.
17:52:53 <fizzie> It was very nice for ircery.
17:53:09 <fizzie> Then it caught on fire, though. :/
17:53:40 <fizzie> Well, the smoke came out, and it no longer worked.
17:54:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, sounds rather illogical. I mean, a lot of the time you edit files other people worked on too
17:54:38 <fizzie> I had gotten a vt510 and vt420 from someone/somewhere; kept the 510 (it had a bit more screen modes and weird functionality) and gave the 420 to a friend; then the 510 broke down, and I was left completely without a terminal.
17:54:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, ouch. Did you try to debug it?
17:54:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, with multimeter and such
17:55:13 <AnMaster> oh wait, cathode ray, high voltage. Yeah not a good idea unless you know exactly what you are doing
17:55:35 <fizzie> I did open the easily-openable parts and had a look in, but it did look pretty imposing.
17:55:47 <fizzie> I sort of ran out of a good place to keep it in at the same time, due to a move, so I just gave up.
17:56:30 <fizzie> I didn't want to waste film on that. There's a lot of photos of similar things in the interwebs.
17:56:54 <AnMaster> tend to forget about how recently digital cameras became common
17:57:33 <fizzie> There was a nifty local (as in, runs in the terminal firmware) calculator built in the terminal. You could copy numbers in from the screen contents, and paste results in as input.
17:58:43 <fizzie> http://www.forcix.cx/images/screenshots/vt510.jpg though I ran mine at a lot higher text resolution. It could do something like 128x48 or so.
17:58:59 <fizzie> It was equally dirty, though. :p
18:01:29 <fizzie> fi:lasipalatsi is literally translated "glass palace", but it's referring to this building at the Helsinki city centre. There's a library, a small movie theatre, some restaurant, a few cafes, and so on, in there.
18:01:51 <fizzie> "The Lasipalatsi Film and Media Centre is a building owned by the City of Helsinki and maintained by the Lasipalatsi Media Centre Ltd.
18:01:51 <fizzie> Its pulse beats in the very heart of Helsinki, making the spirit of openness and modernity that its creators strove for already in the 1930’s come alive."
18:02:41 <fizzie> Oh, and one Apple "Premium Retailer" too.
18:04:03 <fizzie> Well, perhaps, sort-of. It's a bit different in style from the nearby actual shopping centres though.
18:10:39 <cpressey> I'm going to code in Java every day and become the best Java programmer ever!!!
18:12:14 <fizzie> I'm tempted to say something along the lines of "the only good Java programmer is a dead Java programmer".
18:13:09 <oklopol> that would be classic fizzie
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18:18:50 <cpressey> New rule: "CPU" is pronounced "Kuh-poo".
18:20:48 <cpressey> Because, Phantom_Hoover, we must avenge AnMaster's death, and this is the only way I know how.
18:21:58 <cpressey> I will let fungot answer that.
18:21:58 <fungot> cpressey: dogs of ghosts aren't angry, it assumes that if you turn blind, don't step on cursed items. his most distinctive features are the most malleable and ductile of all creatures. they show astonishing intelligence in knowing when a human being and a great snake.
18:22:47 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube
18:23:01 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
18:23:20 <cpressey> I'd like to see a style that merges all of them.
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18:26:44 <fizzie> I should perhaps try a mixture some day.
18:29:59 <cpressey> I guess he stepped on a cursed item. After being blinded by ... some ghost's pet dog.
18:31:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, lots of things will kill you regardless of their BUC.
18:31:38 <cpressey> Maybe it was a cursed landmine.
18:32:35 <Phantom_Hoover> They aren't inventory items, so how can they have a BUC?
18:32:49 <cpressey> Well, if a landmine killed me, I would certainly curse it.
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18:35:14 <cpressey> Well, perhaps it was a wand. They can explode.
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18:37:22 <cpressey> Really, I don't know what it could be. I only know that fungot wouldn't dare make shit up about something this important. Perhaps he will elaborate.
18:37:23 <fungot> cpressey: they say that playing nethack is your mind. the answers to the world a grid bug: these strange creatures can be expert burrowers, runners, swimmers and climbers, and his treasure, but filled with the evil will of their victims.
18:38:12 <cpressey> I'm going to have to think about that over lunch.
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18:44:46 <fungot> CakeProphet: king arthur, *arthur: ector took both his sons to the shibuya train station every afternoon to wait for prey to come, but still quite formidable.
18:46:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I often wonder whether fungot or Mezzacotta is more impressive.
18:46:29 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: they say that you can trust your gold with the sixth it snapped asunder in saruman's hand, to the game, which you can get a kick out of spain. one hob mentioned by henderson, was the reason for his muffled voice. " how perceptive of you to me.' ' o no, my dear!"
18:48:13 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
18:59:29 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Well, fungot is in Funge. Mezzacotta is not.
18:59:29 <fungot> pikhq: they say that snake charmers aren't charismatic, just musical." ( conan the conqueror, by w.b. yeats), and most corrosive agents, and finally, when invoked, it grants its owner wished, a horse which was stolen once can be diluted but not his life, some feathering, and are tipped with a long sword, wielding it in tins..."
19:01:02 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
19:02:03 <AnMaster> cpressey, why did you think I was dead? ;P
19:02:46 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, what does the P stand for?
19:05:02 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
19:05:16 <AnMaster> I guess it can't be implemented in bf or ul
19:05:42 <fizzie> Right, it's a built-in.
19:06:12 <fizzie> "bool" >?>0".oN" 61g:3+61p3P> ^
19:06:12 <fizzie> >17G0"loob"Q!|>0".seY" 61g:4+61p3P^
19:06:27 <AnMaster> is there any 2D esolang that uses more than one char per instruction?
19:06:48 <Deewiant> Are you forgetting the ORTH fingerprint?
19:06:55 <Deewiant> (And the language it's based on)
19:06:57 <cpressey> Also Boo-yah!, if it were ever finished.
19:07:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I don't remember the details of it
19:07:18 <Deewiant> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/orth/orth.html
19:07:39 <cpressey> Forgetting Orthoganal, that is.
19:07:42 <AnMaster> cpressey, I was thinking of a "high level" language. That would have functions, blocks, loops an such. Not sure how but I do have some vague ideas
19:08:31 <AnMaster> lets say, 2D C. that should give you a feeling for I'm thinking about
19:08:35 <cpressey> I believe the first version was called Orthagonal.
19:08:39 <Deewiant> "each column is four characters wide. This is the default setting, and it can be changed if desired, but four is wide enough for all of the instructions and all integers in the range of -999 to 9999, which includes most of the useful ones."
19:09:00 <fizzie> You could sort-of count Wierd using "more than one char", since the instructions are based on the turns, and you need more than one character to make a turn.
19:09:21 <AnMaster> hm still nothing near this idea I'm considering
19:10:21 <AnMaster> hm need to think some more about it before I know what exactly to discuss
19:10:23 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: so a grid of functions that contain operations to manipulate some kind of state and also to manipulate positioning on the grid?
19:11:01 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, not exactly no, it should be split on the level of parser elements, or at the very least, statements
19:11:47 <AnMaster> this isn't exactly it, but I'm not yet sure about most of the details
19:11:53 <AnMaster> probably won't look like that at all
19:12:19 <AnMaster> well also f and ( should probably be different lines
19:12:39 <AnMaster> of course the code would have to be valid in all cardinal directions (non-cardinal is too complicated to consider yet)
19:12:48 <AnMaster> since it would definitely be a compiled language
19:12:58 <AnMaster> you should be able to change direction somehow yes
19:14:23 <AnMaster> one issue is knowing how wide cells are, I think they should be variable width with some sort of heuristic to detect which cell you aim for below. If properly done you could use that to implement randomness when there are multiple choices.
19:15:52 <Gregor-P> But only one essence Gregoran.
19:16:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: There's Rail, which has separate named functions, and multi-character commands (like the function calls). It's of course easy if you have code flow "rail-like" like that and not freely-moving.
19:16:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, it should definitely be freely moving within the cardinal directions. Possibly allow delta larger than 1
19:17:04 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Rail is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Rail
19:17:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, however I think the stuff should be fixed height
19:17:16 <AnMaster> actually no, not delta other than 1
19:17:39 <AnMaster> that would make compiling a nightmare, and a goal here is that the language should be easy to compile in theory but be rather hard to compile in practise
19:17:51 <fizzie> I rather like the raily way too.
19:17:51 <AnMaster> mostly this is done by making the parsing insanely difficult
19:18:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes so do I, but it is a different idea.
19:18:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, just because you love intercal doesn't mean you hate befunge
19:18:42 <fizzie> Yes, it was more of a continuation on the "2D and multiple characters" conversation fork.
19:19:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, PLEASE READ FIRST
19:20:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it should definitely require that you can execute statements in all 4 cardinal directions. Somehow
19:20:35 <cpressey> Sort of a "rail tarpit" actually.
19:20:58 <AnMaster> that means f ( x ) = y has to be valid (not hard) and so would y = ) x ( f have to be
19:21:08 <AnMaster> this should make the parser rather hard
19:21:20 <AnMaster> since you ( ... ) would be something else than ) ... (
19:22:02 <AnMaster> not sure what exactly yet, or if I even will use that exact syntax
19:24:49 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: But retain the fact that they nest!
19:25:10 <Phantom_Hoover> So that ( is always "nest one more level" and ) is always "go up one nest level".
19:27:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that doesn't work
19:27:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, code has to be valid in all 4 cardinal directions
19:27:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, this will be compiled not interpreted as I said above (if you ever read more than half of what anyone read)
19:28:38 * cpressey should build a custom downloader app for the esolangs on catseye.tc. EsoGRABBER!!! That's necessary.
19:28:39 <AnMaster> yes but then how would "x = (2 + y) * 3" be valid from right?
19:28:49 <AnMaster> it would be mismatched nesting depth
19:29:11 <AnMaster> and having it treat it reverse the other way around, well that is boring
19:29:27 <AnMaster> plus it means you have a problem defining up and down
19:29:36 <AnMaster> since there is no obvious interpretation to those there
19:30:02 <AnMaster> cpressey, why is that required? wget?
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19:30:12 <AnMaster> cpressey, wget can download recursively
19:30:25 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Make the interpretation dependent on current travelling direction
19:30:42 <cpressey> AnMaster(cpressey) -> headdesk.
19:31:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Does that mean that AnMaster makes you headdesk or the other way round?
19:32:11 <AnMaster> cpressey, of course it should be → instead
19:32:29 <AnMaster> though I won't try to interpret the UTF-8 sequences backwards
19:32:39 <cpressey> Does Erlang support unicode for that syntax now?
19:32:51 <AnMaster> cpressey, I was thinking about my language idea
19:33:05 <AnMaster> cpressey, however erlang has unicode strings and unicode IO and such nowdays
19:36:13 <oklopol> how about this: you can modify codespace, but no other memory, 2d, and all commands that do control flow make the turtle go faster, perhaps also possibility to modify say one whole row with one command
19:36:45 <oklopol> rather nonlocal, i like the idea
19:37:27 <cpressey> AnMaster: I have no idea what -> would do in *your* language. Sorry.
19:38:00 <cpressey> oklopol: I like it. There's a Jethro Tull song that has that in its refrain.
19:38:10 <AnMaster> cpressey, still working on overall semantics rather than specific syntax
19:38:36 <oklopol> needs quite a bit of refining ofc
19:38:53 <AnMaster> cpressey, actually -> would be two symbols. so going < you would get > -
19:39:01 <AnMaster> after that I would expect an integer or float
19:39:28 <AnMaster> it should do something since otherwise it would be tricky to compare some stuff
19:40:15 <AnMaster> ooh it could print a warning saying "Deprecated alias for → (deprecated in first release)" at compile time
19:40:24 <oklopol> but the idea is that you have to, regularly (although perhaps increasingly rarely), increase speed (perhaps the only way to do conditions or something), and that essentially renders all code you have on the board unusable
19:40:45 <oklopol> so you have to have built another thing to run, say, to the left of your current code
19:40:57 <cpressey> oklopol: Maybe you could have an extremely powerful instruction that spaces out all code on the board, to compensate
19:41:14 <oklopol> so kinda like that one language where you just have a tail call to a string, as control flow, but lower-level than that.
19:41:35 <AnMaster> cpressey, space time expansion to counter increasing speed?
19:41:52 <cpressey> i don't really like my suggestion because it is too powerful, but yes.
19:42:00 <oklopol> cpressey: maybe nothing *that* strong, i mean i don't want people to be able to use the same code again, you have to quine it
19:42:24 <oklopol> but maybe you could say "repeat this pattern in this direction"
19:42:55 <oklopol> well anyway i'll think about this when the time comes, so maybe tomorrow, now some sleep hopefully
19:43:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, would there be a limit to the speed? Some sort of speed of light limit I mean
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19:43:48 <oklopol> you can never have a nontrivial infinite loop
19:44:04 <oklopol> you have to speed up after a finite amount of time
19:45:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, maybe after a fixed number of steps? Like some arcade games
19:45:39 <AnMaster> hm is there any esolang based on pinball?
19:45:47 <AnMaster> with tilt sensors of course ;)
19:46:11 <oklopol> have to be careful that you don't get tcness without conditions ofc
19:46:16 <oklopol> because of self-modification
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19:47:02 <oklopol> but if it just incs speed after a finite amt, then it's not necessarily non-tc if you can print infinite rows at a time on the board
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19:52:40 <CakeProphet> (this statement is false) is false. SOME KIND OF LOGICAL RECURSION? MUST BE PARADOX.
19:53:59 <CakeProphet> the statement "this statement is false" is neither true nor false.
19:57:24 <CakeProphet> [x = x + 1] [x - 1 = x + 1 - 1] [x = x - 1] [ x + 1 = x - 1] [1 = -1]
19:57:51 <Gregor-P> oklopol: Please use that assertion as the basis for a paradox.
20:08:59 <cpressey> Beh. I hate paradoxes about how everyone likes a paradox.
20:10:04 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Since you can't play forever.
20:10:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, pinball? I think you can in theory?
20:11:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you can't do it if there's a nondeterministic element that can force unavaoidable failure.
20:11:42 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, that is not mathematically valid in the second and third step?
20:12:17 <AnMaster> you start from nonsense as well
20:12:48 <AnMaster> oh wait you switch sides there
20:13:19 <AnMaster> but yeah the third step is invalid and the initial equation has no solution
20:13:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, [x = x - 1] [ x + 1 = x - 1] ?
20:14:07 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes the first is false but see the bit I pointed at. I fail to see what made you able to add + 1 there on just one side
20:15:30 <CakeProphet> hey, I used false assertions to come to a false conclusion
20:16:36 <CakeProphet> but imagine a world in which such a thing was not false
20:17:29 <AnMaster> actually I would say that the first equation just has no solutions. solve in both maxima and mathematica gives me an empty set. So is the statement actually false? If we define false = no solutions does having multiple solutions then indicate that it is extra true? ;P
20:18:08 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, also that one is easy: just take absolute value everywhere
20:18:48 <AnMaster> a strange universe that works like that of course
20:19:08 <oklopol> no interpretation for "x = x - 1" was given, really, the standard one is "this holds for all reals"
20:19:38 <oklopol> but occasionally x = x - 1 might be true in the sense that the polynomials give the same values for any inputs
20:19:53 <oklopol> which is a natural way to put polynomials in equivalence classes, so not completely bullshit
20:20:02 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: x equals and does not equal x???
20:20:39 <oklopol> all the cool numbers are doing it
20:21:08 <CakeProphet> I am at a slight distance to my monitor. so the (+-) looked like a not equal sign.
20:21:13 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC there's a thing called an identity that holds for all x.
20:22:15 <AnMaster> identity is like inverting except without the actual inversion step.
20:23:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, actually an injoke. You won't get it if you haven't had a course on digital logic circuits
20:23:21 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: No it's not. It's more like addition by one except without the addition by one step.
20:23:46 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, either that "..." was you just realising it or it was something else. Which was it?
20:24:03 <oklopol> in circuitry, isn't identity usually like inversion, except you then invert the result
20:24:29 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: the "... :)" as a whole was an assertion of the severe gravity of this conversation.
20:24:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, the symbols are the same except for a ring on the out signal for inverting. And there are "identify" gates called "buffers" so you get the timing right
20:25:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, which has exactly the inverter symbol without the ring on the output
20:25:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ask a plumber.
20:25:19 <oklopol> oh well i wasn't talking about the symbols
20:25:44 <oklopol> i meant isn't that how you implement drivers (is that the term?), stick an inverter in another inverter's ass
20:25:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder if you can emulate an array with some pipes...
20:26:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, but yes since the reason you want identity is to match up the delay with some other signal you can often do it by inverting and then inverting again
20:26:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh you mean output pin driving transistors? To amplify the signal to the outside? Hm can't remember how those worked.
20:27:47 <oklopol> AnMaster: no i don't mean those!
20:28:22 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, it makes perfect sense and unlike math you can usually just use a numerical approximation. Math teachers tends to want exact answers like 2sqrt(7) . While in EE you would answer ~5.2915 (or whatever number of significant digits you needed) and get full marks
20:28:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, then not sure what you mean
20:28:45 <oklopol> anyway i have taken a course in digital logic or w/e, which was on a slightly higher level than this, an an electronics course that was on a much lower level, transistors i know little about.
20:28:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also pipes are POSIX
20:28:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, if you mean pipe()
20:29:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh and the kernel buffer for them are limited
20:29:06 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: I just have trouble understanding how to use the concepts. I never got terribly far though, for the same reason.
20:29:13 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, 4 kiB by default or such I think
20:29:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, check ulimits -a
20:29:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: i just thought you call those things drivers that i dunno amplify signals and maybe synchronize them, i just recall seeing that term in a list of basic components, and someone said it's basically two inverters having anal sex
20:29:44 <oklopol> well the anal sex is my addition, you probably couldn't guess
20:30:17 <cpressey> Because they amplify a signal enough to drive a line.
20:30:18 <AnMaster> cpressey, I learnt the Swedish terminology, a bit limited with the English terms thus
20:30:25 <AnMaster> cpressey, ah yeah for fan out?
20:30:29 <cpressey> Chip pin drivers are the same idea.
20:30:40 <cpressey> Yes, for fan out, or increased load generally.
20:30:41 <AnMaster> cpressey, if this is for fan out then I get what oklopol is talking about
20:30:59 <cpressey> Driving light bulbs. Whatever you like.
20:31:13 <CakeProphet> circuits are things I would greatly love to know how to build and use.
20:31:46 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, once you used a breadboard for anything sufficiently complex you start to see the point of VHDL or verilog. Trust me on that.
20:31:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Although you would need to rotate, and you'd only be able to do it one way.
20:31:58 <CakeProphet> I think if I could translate it to CS I would understand better.
20:32:00 <cpressey> CakeProphet: They're fun. I had a hell of a time understanding electronics, but I eventually got used to it.
20:32:01 <AnMaster> to find which wire is going the wrong way
20:32:14 <AnMaster> that is when working in CMOS or TTL 74* logic
20:33:14 <cpressey> CakeProphet: All electronic signals are analog. Coming from computers where everything is discrete, that's really the sticking point.
20:33:16 <oklopol> cpressey: cool, i actually was rather sure about that
20:33:22 <AnMaster> actually EE might be more fun than compsci if it wasn't for algorithms and data structures.
20:34:01 <cpressey> If you restrict yourself to digital circuits, you can pretend to forget that it's analog, but you can't really.
20:34:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a simple command-line tool that lets me convert from binary to decimal?
20:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm getting progressively more annoyed with the lack of one.
20:34:44 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know of one.
20:34:47 <AnMaster> cpressey, also I find writing AC as complex numbers and using *degrees* is jarring. like 4e^(-j*47.5°)
20:34:48 <oklopol> AnMaster: how much algorithmics do you have
20:34:56 <AnMaster> cpressey, I have seen that in EE
20:34:57 <oklopol> like say, how many different courses
20:35:10 <cpressey> I too get annoyed at lack of binary support, even in languages like Perl or Python. When it's there, it's hard to find.
20:35:23 <AnMaster> oklopol, 2 courses during the autumn iirc, and a few during the spring to come
20:35:27 <oklopol> you mentioned emphasis seems to be on the electronics side or do i misremember
20:35:38 <oklopol> oh you follow some sort of schedule?
20:35:47 <CakeProphet> I wonder if you could make a programming language that a) works exactly how someone unfamiliar with programs would expect b) has no ambiguity.
20:35:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes 3 year program. Bachelor
20:35:56 <oklopol> we have a do-what-the-fuck-you-wish uni
20:36:11 <oklopol> well okay i guess many follow some sort of program at first
20:36:25 <AnMaster> basically fixed program with some 2-alternative choices
20:36:46 <oklopol> we have a stream like that, i would hate it
20:36:49 <AnMaster> like, you have to chose one of "AI" or "compilers and interpreters" courses at one point
20:37:10 <oklopol> latter i guess, but AI is interesting too
20:37:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, well yes at one point we get that choice.
20:37:33 <AnMaster> anyway going to move to other university for master studies
20:37:37 <oklopol> well AI is basically about search techniques if you follow The Book.
20:38:02 <oklopol> how can you think AI is boring?
20:38:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, I have not looked at details yet. Over a year left
20:38:09 <oklopol> what kind of AI are you thinking about
20:38:22 <oklopol> i mean i'm not saying you have to like it, just surprising
20:38:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, AI research. robots failling in stairs isn't it mostly about?
20:38:49 <oklopol> yeah i wondered about that
20:39:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think I changed my mind from "failing" to "falling in stairs" somewhere in the middle of that word
20:39:17 <oklopol> yeah i guess most applied AI is pretty boring
20:39:32 <cpressey> Worse, "fuzzy" is taking over.
20:39:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
20:39:49 <oklopol> what's wrong with fuzzyness
20:39:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes it is definitely applied AI in the master program this uni offers. only compsci master program they have. So moving to other university for that as I said above
20:40:02 <cpressey> http://danweinreb.org/blog/why-did-mit-switch-from-scheme-to-python
20:40:20 <AnMaster> cpressey, I guess they like the warm and fuzzy feeling?
20:40:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought AI researchers spent most of their time fighting off their creations.
20:41:08 <cpressey> I also saw an abstract for a talk (did I not attend) a few years ago, which was basically about how a CS cirriculum based on things like Towers of Hanoi was not relevant anymore.
20:41:27 <cpressey> Yes. Teaching students to think recursively -- what use is that?
20:42:04 <AnMaster> cpressey, oh we did recursion in python, part of first course...
20:42:10 <cpressey> That's hardly their only issue.
20:42:54 <AnMaster> cpressey, oh and induction, but that was pretty solid discrete math though the teacher had some quite whimsical analogies with the real world.
20:42:59 <CakeProphet> I'm surprised Python hasn't beat Java in university curricula
20:43:13 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, I think there is java coming up later on
20:43:40 <AnMaster> apparently they used to use lisp here long ago as well.
20:43:44 * CakeProphet learned Python on his own back in sophmore year of high school.
20:43:55 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, thank god we were introduced to C before C++
20:44:09 <AnMaster> well I already knew C pretty well
20:44:49 <AnMaster> iirc I even checked against the C standard and told the teacher he was wrong about some tiny detail wrt undefined behaviour of something.
20:45:15 <CakeProphet> yeah. CS people are wrong sometimes. it happens. There's a lot of shit to remember. :)
20:45:35 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, after all I had to double check with the C standard to be sure he was incorrect.
20:45:48 <AnMaster> I mean, I know C99 pretty well
20:46:18 <AnMaster> was ages ago I used pascal last
20:46:18 <oklopol> "a CS cirriculum based on things like Towers of Hanoi was not relevant anymore." <<< indeed, nowadays if you don't know that stuff, people will think you have brain cancer
20:46:28 <CakeProphet> hmmm, what advantages does Erlang have over Scala?
20:46:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, that is just math department people ;P
20:46:55 <Phantom_Hoover> And while I did computing at my current school, I used JavaScript.
20:47:28 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:47:29 <AnMaster> managed to fuck up the system somehow so it needed reinstall
20:47:36 <CakeProphet> went something like this for me: Python -> C -> Scheme -> Brainfuck -> ...?
20:47:37 <Phantom_Hoover> They *have* both Firefox and Safari on all of the machines.
20:48:25 <AnMaster> hm... applescript -> delphi -> pascal -> bash -> C -> branches out to include lots of other languages, not just one after this
20:48:32 <cpressey> So I'm the *only* one here (not lurking) who started programming on an 8-bit?
20:48:32 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, possibly. it's quite a new experience to be the least smart in a group of 5 people.
20:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover> The best part is that the teacher said that it was because IE 5 had better debugging.
20:49:01 <AnMaster> cpressey, I'm too young as well
20:49:13 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how old are you exactly?
20:49:16 <oklopol> (the dudes i hang with, luckily these people just assumed i was one of them so i didn't have to choose my companions)
20:49:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, hah. you are post graduate now or?
20:49:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I'll assume 14-17 then
20:50:03 <oklopol> well okay maybe not really least smart, but complete noob at least
20:50:51 <oklopol> AnMaster: no i have a BS, at least once i return my thesis
20:51:14 <oklopol> i just work at the university, i've told this many times :)
20:51:27 <CakeProphet> I think I started lurking here when I was 15-16
20:51:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh so what does your work involve? teaching?
20:51:36 <oklopol> but i have enough courses for it
20:51:40 <AnMaster> no wait I can't imagine you teaching anyone
20:51:59 <oklopol> well part research, but mostly i read papers and books.
20:52:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what? you don't know how old you are?
20:52:24 <oklopol> (because it's a bit hard to do research in a subject you learned a month ago)
20:53:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ... surely you know when you have your bday? I mean other people tend to remind you of it ;P
20:53:36 <oklopol> i still have a hard time remembering whether i'm 20 or 21
20:53:45 <oklopol> i always have to do a subtraction
20:54:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, but at least you know it +/- 1 year
20:54:32 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, I know my birthday, just not the year I had the first one.
20:54:40 <cpressey> So, let me think.... BASIC -> 6502 assembler (extremely lamely) -> Pascal -> C -> Visual Basic -> Perl -> Erlang -> Lua -> Scheme -> Prolog -> Haskell -> C++ (out of sheer necessity) -> Python -> Ruby. Roughly, and not counting esolangs.
20:54:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm. You surely have some estimate of your age? give or take a year or two? ;P
20:55:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't show up in mirrors, so I can't estimate it that way.
20:55:30 <AnMaster> cpressey, so you don't know bash, sed, awk and so on?
20:56:07 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, you have seen simple sed programs on irc
20:56:08 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, why would I show up in photos but not a mirror?
20:56:12 <cpressey> I don't see why I should consider them programming languages.
20:56:16 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, people correcting using s/foo/bar/
20:56:18 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: possibly, I didn't recognize them as such.
20:56:20 <cpressey> I wrote a 15-line awk program once.
20:56:27 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: ah, well yes. I associate that with Perl I guess.
20:56:32 <oklopol> i used to know tons of languages but i think i've forgotten everything except python
20:57:03 <AnMaster> cpressey, dd/sh is an esolang using dd and sh, hosted on the same site as clc-intercal
20:57:18 <AnMaster> cpressey, http://dd-sh.intercal.org.uk/
20:57:24 <oklopol> cpressey: tc = serious business
20:57:24 <cpressey> AnMaster: Yes, I've seen it before.
20:57:41 <cpressey> oklopol: I did say "not counting esolangs".
20:57:54 <AnMaster> cpressey, you consider bash an esolang?
20:58:11 <oklopol> and i did say SERIOUS BUSINESS.
20:58:49 <AnMaster> cpressey, Just because you can do stuff in envbot in it doesn't mean it is esoteric. If it did then C would be esoteric. IOCCC
20:59:02 <fizzie> cpressey: I am of the proper age to have started on 8-bit hardware, but curse my non-sensible family, we only got PC hardware. I did start reasonably early on the PC thing, though, and have been twiddling with obsoleted hardware "posthumously"; I've got that one C128 and so on.
20:59:10 <cpressey> oklopol: re Towers of Hanoi: I agree with AnMaster. You live in a world where people are expected to write proofs.
20:59:28 <fizzie> (I am also a bit bitter on all same-aged friends who got to start with more interesting computers.)
20:59:49 <AnMaster> cpressey, and C++ should be esoteric. After all it is TC only thanks to templates
21:00:00 <cpressey> fizzie: Well, even the old PCs hold some charm. CGA and all that.
21:00:04 <AnMaster> templates doing TC calculations at compile time
21:00:09 <oklopol> we were just talking today with a doctoral student about how dumb it people are
21:00:09 <CakeProphet> so if I'm understanding bijections correctly.
21:00:15 <CakeProphet> they are functions from values in one set to values in another.
21:00:46 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, bijection mean you can match up 1-to-1 both ways yes.
21:00:58 <AnMaster> hm, I always confuse what sujection is
21:01:12 <oklopol> that is, each point in the codomain has exactly one preimage (injection = at most 1, surjection = at least 1).
21:01:16 <cpressey> AnMaster: The only reason Perl, C++, and bash aren't esolangs is because so many people use them.
21:01:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, right, so what I said was equiv.
21:01:38 <oklopol> AnMaster: if you knew french, you'd remember
21:01:48 <fizzie> cpressey: Yes, but still. I did mostly GW-BASIC lameity, and the computers were already at something like 386s before I discovered real programming languages. (Though inexplicably there was a Prolog interpreter installed on one... 286, I guess.)
21:01:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, I did take french ages ago. Don't remember much
21:01:56 <oklopol> "sur" means "onto", well, assuming you know what onto means i guess
21:02:05 <CakeProphet> cpressey: which language would you recommend I learn? I know very little. I think I'm going to do an IRC bot as practice in whatever language I choose. Ruby? Perl?
21:02:10 <CakeProphet> Perl seems like too much trouble to learn.
21:02:23 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Remind me, what ones you know now?
21:02:26 <fizzie> The first PC we had had a Hercules monochrome graphics adapter, incidentally. Color is too hi-fi.
21:02:29 <oklopol> i think of it as you mapping a set on top of another, this is what surjectivity is, that the codomain is covered
21:02:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, so surjective = "there are no values in your target set that you can't reach with this function"?
21:03:04 <cpressey> CakeProphet: scrollback says Python -> C -> Scheme -> Brainfuck
21:03:15 <CakeProphet> cpressey: not too many I have a lot of experience. Python, I "know" Scheme but have never really used it for anything, I've used C extensively, and... I've been learning Erlang as of late. Those are just the ones I've actually used, not the ones I've digested.
21:03:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, I heard it before. But the name "codomain" makes no sense to me.
21:03:39 <oklopol> well co- in category theory usually means inverting arrows
21:03:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, as in the prefix co- seems to indicate stuff like coroutines and such for me rather
21:03:42 <CakeProphet> cpressey: I would like to expand my vocabulary. :)
21:03:43 <oklopol> functions are a kind of arrow
21:03:54 <oklopol> so, the codomain is the domain of the cofunction
21:04:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean the inverse function?
21:05:01 <oklopol> no not really, in its abstractness category theory likes to invert the arrow without changing meaning at all
21:05:18 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Well, Erlang's good stuff. If you're simply looking to expand your vocabulary, maybe Prolog.
21:05:21 <oklopol> so it's the same function, we just think of it as doing a different kind of thing...
21:05:44 <CakeProphet> cpressey: meh. Not terribly interested in Prolog. I've looked at it though.
21:05:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, so is arcsin the cofunction of sin?
21:05:49 <cpressey> If you're looking to improve your career prospects, then Java, of course.
21:06:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, because that is what I meant with inverse. Well of course this is true only if you set your domain to be relevant size
21:06:06 <fizzie> Forth is a different-paradigmy choice too, and oh-so-chARRming.
21:06:07 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Knowing what Prolog does is more important than writing programs in it.
21:06:20 <oklopol> i guess the inverse function could be thought as being the cofunction
21:06:22 <cpressey> I second fizzie's Forth suggestion.
21:06:25 <CakeProphet> cpressey: oh, speaking of Erlang. Would you recommend Mnesia to handle persistence in a MUD codebase?
21:06:32 <oklopol> do realize i don't actually know much about this stuff :P
21:06:54 <cpressey> CakeProphet: It's OK, but my experience was that dets was significantly faster.
21:06:56 <AnMaster> <cpressey> CakeProphet: Knowing what Prolog does is more important than writing programs in it. <-- ah, somewhat like scheme then
21:07:00 <oklopol> i mean i guess that's the natural way to interpret reversing the arrow, if the function is invertible
21:07:02 <CakeProphet> cpressey: it's interesting. I've seen example programs where Prolog defines trees by stating relationships between branches, rather than explicit construction.
21:07:07 <oklopol> but you can invert the arrow even if there's no inverse function
21:07:11 <CakeProphet> cpressey: dets is just the table-to-file part of mnesia right?
21:07:18 <oklopol> because it's still a morphism
21:07:25 <AnMaster> cpressey, knowing what call/cc and lisp macros are is more important than actually writing stuff in it. IMO
21:07:28 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Yes, mnesia is implemented with dets I believe.
21:07:48 <cpressey> AnMaster: maybe, but the difference is not so great as it is in prolog imo.
21:07:51 <AnMaster> can't you have tables loaded in memory for read?
21:08:35 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, also I used dets without mneisa once
21:08:39 <cpressey> i mean, the persistent part of mnesia is implemented with dets.
21:08:46 <oklopol> okay "cofunction" seems to refer to sine -> cosine etc, that completely different ofc
21:09:02 <CakeProphet> cpressey: I was mostly interested in being able to perform multiple operations atomically. I suppose I could achieve the same effect with dets though. Simply have one process who controls the table and implement all the operations I need via messages.
21:09:38 <AnMaster> it is lower level in other aspects too
21:10:02 <AnMaster> like, you probably only have one key column
21:10:02 <cpressey> Mnesia is good if you need transactions.
21:10:15 <AnMaster> you would need to implement indexes on other columns yourself
21:10:21 <CakeProphet> cpressey: Erlang makes it kind of natural to reason about procedures actually. Getting accustomed to the syntax and the libraries will be a completely different story however...
21:10:28 <AnMaster> also not sure about properly closing dets on exit
21:10:52 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, for me it took about two weeks to get used to the , ; . bit
21:10:58 <oklopol> AnMaster: also you should definitely at least be able to imagine me trying to teach someone, because i try to teach you stuff all the time :P
21:11:01 <AnMaster> coded a lot during that time though
21:11:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, well yes but #esoteric is different
21:11:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't want to imagine you telling students you played the piano like... you know...
21:12:26 <oklopol> well yes you're probably right, luckily for the students i *am* aiming for research.
21:13:08 <CakeProphet> I am somewhat interested in research, but I fear some kind of evil university politics cabal.
21:13:11 <oklopol> it's possible ofc that i just start sweeping floors because i'm not smart enough for math
21:13:28 <CakeProphet> so I think I think I'll try industry for a while and maybe go back for post-grad and such.
21:13:36 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, I heard about that sort of stuff too. Too much drama basically.
21:14:11 <cpressey> CakeProphet: I have to admit, if I ever do design my Ultimate System<tm>, a signficiant chunk of it will look like Erlang.
21:14:16 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, but you are likely to get drama in industry as well
21:14:43 <CakeProphet> cpressey: yes, but you better do better. Needs moar data structures.
21:14:52 <AnMaster> cpressey, also it should JIT. Erlang not jitting to preserve soft realtime predictability is a reason that is very specialised
21:14:54 <cpressey> No, it will be a CE! I've been over this in this channel in the past few days ;)
21:15:25 <cpressey> Probably at times when AnMaster wasn't here.
21:15:29 <AnMaster> cpressey, erlang isn't an OS. But you could make an OS that felt much like erlang I feel
21:15:43 <AnMaster> cpressey, yeah I seldom log read if more than half my scrollback (2000 lines per channel)
21:16:02 <AnMaster> brb, going to get some cookies or something
21:16:19 <CakeProphet> I don't see how Erlang isn't an OS. it runs standalone, supports hardware access, and can multi-task standalone.
21:16:35 <cpressey> And it's been put on a FPGA, mostly.
21:16:48 <cpressey> That's even better than an OS.
21:17:36 <CakeProphet> cpressey: were you around for my concurrent cellular automata language idea?
21:17:46 <cpressey> CakeProphet: I don't think so.
21:17:52 <CakeProphet> I want to complete the design... and then have Intel make me a 100-core machine to play around with it.
21:18:15 <CakeProphet> essentially what it sounds like. the devil is in the details of course.
21:18:53 <CakeProphet> you define a grid of concurrent FSMs... I haven't decided if they'll be message passing or if they simply just do typical CA behavior.
21:18:53 <oklopol> AnMaster: so you had what a few hundred channels open, so... you seldom read more than 100000 lines of scrollback? god you're lazy.
21:22:49 <oklopol> so how is it different from a CA? :P
21:22:59 <oklopol> please tell me about the devil
21:23:07 <cpressey> CakeProphet: The nice part is that each core can be really simple, and have all of its memory reside in what is essentially cache, making them really fast.
21:23:15 <cpressey> The icky part is the messaging.
21:23:35 <cpressey> And some problems don't parallelize.
21:23:39 <fizzie> Meh, x86 really ought to have a single-byte-displacement CALL; it is so wasteful in a tiny program that every time you want a subroutine call, it wastes five bytes (opcode + disp) for a 32-bit relative displacement that always has the three higher bytes zero (or 0xff sometimes).
21:23:48 <cpressey> And we don't have good proofs that some problems don't parallelize.
21:24:02 <fizzie> There's short jumps, why is there no short call?
21:24:26 <CakeProphet> cpressey: the message passing wouldn't be bad if you communicated messages only to your neighbor on the grid.
21:24:41 <cpressey> CakeProphet: That helps. Actually...
21:25:22 <CakeProphet> cpressey: and then you could implement forwarding behavior to carry messages along.
21:25:32 <fizzie> If you go computer-sciencey on distributed computing, we don't really know anything. We had a seminar course on this once, and it was full of "everything always works" assumptions; if you start thinking about nodes that fail, all the beautiful algorithms and their properties go out of the window.
21:26:17 <oklopol> CakeProphet: so how's it different from a ca :P
21:27:39 <CakeProphet> well... only in implementation really. and it would be a programming language. I was thinking about having functions with pattern matching.
21:28:17 <fizzie> (The whole seminar course was about a single book; the professor was interested in reading the book, but couldn't get himself motivated, so he arranged a seminar course on it.)
21:28:21 <CakeProphet> and more complex states that a typical CA. records and such.
21:28:53 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Yeah, in practice the idea tends to be shot down by "a dedicated bus would be faster than making potentially everything relay like that"
21:29:47 <cpressey> fizzie: I've known professors like that.
21:30:01 <cpressey> Besides, if P=NP, who needs to parallelize anything?
21:30:38 <fizzie> Here's a bit of trivia: you can do election (a "select one node so that everyone in the network agrees on it" protocol) in an unoriented hypercube in O(n log log n) messages.
21:33:01 <cpressey> CakeProphet: I wonder how many 6502s you could stamp out on a modern Pentium-sized chip.
21:33:07 -!- coppro has joined.
21:34:30 <fizzie> 6502: ~4K transistors; six-core Core i7 chip: ~1'170'000'000 transistors.
21:35:03 <cpressey> Ah, I should stipulate 64K RAM alongside each 6502, of course.
21:35:03 <fizzie> It perhaps isn't quite as trivial as an integer division of the latter by the former, but still.
21:37:11 <fizzie> Good luck in convincing Intel to rework their manufacturing lines to build 6502-monsters like that.
21:39:50 <fizzie> I do like the term "embarrassingly parallel problem".
21:42:47 <AnMaster> <oklopol> AnMaster: so you had what a few hundred channels open, so... you seldom read more than 100000 lines of scrollback? god you're lazy. <-- the policy differs between channels
21:42:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, and some are way way less active
21:43:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, so that calculation is way off. I would say "seldom more than 2000 lines of scrollback"
21:43:37 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:43:43 <fizzie> oklopol: See problem 3.10.8 in the book Design and Analysis of Distributed Algorithms, by N. Santoro (J. Wiley & Sons, 2006).
21:44:08 <fizzie> oklopol: (My slides refuse to elaborate, and I wrote them in early 2007, so can't say I recall the details.)
21:44:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, how does this make you feel: 4.30e^(-j32.7°)
21:44:53 <fizzie> oklopol: I do have an explanation on O(n)-message election protocol in an oriented hypercube, but I don't think I can explain it sufficiently.
21:44:55 <oklopol> oerjan: i was trying to find a math reference greeting, but i can't, so, consider yourself lucky.
21:44:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it is common EE notation
21:44:59 <oerjan> it makes perfect sense to me
21:45:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, but what about the degrees?
21:45:26 <cpressey> Makes me feel sweltering! 32.7°!
21:45:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, My hobby: trying to make mathematicians shudder.
21:45:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: i tend to consider ° an abbreviation for pi/180 in such circumstances :)
21:45:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, but what about the j instead of i?
21:46:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh and the unit would be mV
21:46:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'm not one to hate on engineers
21:46:21 <fizzie> oerjan: After all, without engineers you probably wouldn't even be here!
21:46:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, huh. I remember ehird calling mixing in degrees like that an abomination...
21:46:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: ehird _likes_ to hate on stuff
21:47:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, but what do you feel about units like mV instead having ones like "area unit" "length unit" or such?
21:47:44 <oklopol> one unit shuold be enough for everyone
21:48:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: i feel units should be included when you're doing actual physics stuff
21:48:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh and the values in the problem would all be given in incompatible units. Like µH pF A MOhm and mV
21:48:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh wait your terminal fail at unicode?
21:48:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, if so that was "micro"
21:49:22 <fizzie> What about using eV as a unit of mass? I see that in physics people. (They drop the /c^2 bit out.)
21:49:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's only incompatible if they don't have the same dimension when added, although it could still be _ugly_, naturally. also µ happens to be in latin-1.
21:49:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, haha. Yeah I'm not going that stuff so no clue about it
21:50:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh and you have to be careful with number of significant digits. Since you won't be able to solve this exactly
21:50:20 <oerjan> fizzie: particle physicists like to set c = 1, don't they
21:50:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, you will have to give an approx answer
21:50:39 <fizzie> oerjan: They do indeed. One might even think them lazy, they like it so much.
21:51:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, on the other hand, the stuff they work with tends to move at large fractions of c
21:51:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, so it sounds like a much more usable unit than meters per second
21:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Since it means that you can equate space and time without much hassle
21:52:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, well? you don't have any problems with approx answer?
21:53:12 <CakeProphet> but I have 100 seconds of orange juice that I haven't finished drinking...
21:53:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm, centi- = 1/100, kilo- = * 1000, what what do you use when you want to use *100 instead
21:54:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, reason: kiloseconds is not very convenient for describing a few minutes
21:54:55 <fizzie> An average american weighs about 45 US-trillion YeVs.
21:56:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, now use an exponential scale for this
21:56:23 <AnMaster> as in, not logarithmic, exponential
21:56:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: yottaelectronvolts.
21:56:58 <oerjan> CakeProphet: considering volume and time to be the same unit seems a tad stretching it :D
21:57:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, shouldn't eV be a charge rather than mass hm
21:57:33 <oerjan> especially if you've already made length == time
21:57:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, and c=1. (According to them.)
21:58:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: <fizzie> What about using eV as a unit of mass? I see that in physics people. (They drop the /c^2 bit out.)
21:58:09 <oklopol> oerjan: yes but see length = time = 1
21:58:24 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, oh you were joking about the test?
21:58:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, define gravity to 1 or something
21:59:00 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: So you complain when someone says he weighs 80 kg? It's a unit of mass, after all.
21:59:14 <cpressey> As long as length and width are different unit expressions, I'm happy.
21:59:27 <AnMaster> cpressey, how are they different?
21:59:42 <Phantom_Hoover> There is an imperial measure of mass, but it's really stupid.
22:00:19 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barn_%28unit%29
22:00:21 <oerjan> which dimensions _are_ considered distinct is a little arbitrary anyway. there was one system before SI which considered ampere and the other electromagnetic units to be formulated in terms of m kg s
22:00:48 <AnMaster> cpressey, err barn is already area. so that is length^4
22:00:49 <oerjan> while in SI ampere/current is a distinct dimension for basing them on
22:01:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Asking people how many pints there are in one is mildly amusing.
22:01:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes freeze 1 litre of water into the shape of a cube
22:02:26 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: ah i get it, it's funny because pints are an outdated measure
22:02:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, or you could ask Picasso. He was big on cubism right?
22:03:06 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i know this
22:03:09 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, so an average american (under normal conditions) weighs around 80 megadynes. But that's not as funny a unit.
22:03:12 <AnMaster> hm some time travel might be involved
22:03:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: 10 micronewtons. It's not a SI unit.
22:03:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, you should get length in Å
22:09:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, can we equate space and time and see what happens?
22:09:39 <fizzie> There's that "usual" (if you can call it that) unusual unit for speed, attoparsecs/microfortnight. (Since 1 apc/µfortnight -- there doesn't seem to be a commonly used abbreviation for fortnight -- is close to 1 inch/second.)
22:11:44 <fizzie> "Thus, scientists would brag about having a "4 Gillette" laser versus their competitor's puny "2 Gillette" laser." (Meaning, their laser can burn a hole through 4 razor blades.)
22:11:49 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:12:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, I mean if you wait long enough both are going to burn through all 4
22:12:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: It doesn't say. It's also all [citation needed]. But it does sound funny.
22:12:50 <fizzie> Possibly they can't be run indefinitely.
22:14:03 <AnMaster> anyway I'm going to sleep soon, 4 hs seems enough, give or take a few
22:14:31 <AnMaster> slept badly the previous night so
22:15:23 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya.
22:16:05 <fizzie> cpressey: Speaking of multicore-6502's, would you classify the C128 as a dual-processor computer? It's got the 8502 (a 6510-derivative) and the Z80 both, but only one of them can be active at a time.
22:16:17 <CakeProphet> help me decide which strain pf psilocybe cubensis I want: http://www.spores101.com/cart.php?m=product_list&pageNumber=1&c=1&v=&sortBy=undefined&search=
22:17:14 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:17:29 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Shush, he asked #esolang, not #esoteric.
22:17:52 <CakeProphet> I am surprised they do not have Penis Envy.
22:18:09 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: I was actually just going to grow them and trip balls. But I could make a computer in the process if you'd like.
22:18:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, and there was me thinking you wanted them for science. Goodness, I'm nave.
22:21:19 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: don't own a microscope. I do like mushrooms in general, for more socially acceptable reasons.
22:21:56 <CakeProphet> and I was referring to making a computer design /while/ tripping... not /from/ the psilocybe genus. That would be a very slow computer as it would likely involve reproduction.
22:22:15 <AnMaster> <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: don't own a microscope. I do like mushrooms in general, for more socially acceptable reasons. <-- hm your nick makes more sense now ;)
22:22:59 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, go and build a fungus computer while tripping?
22:23:12 <AnMaster> I was joking about tripping. And then you tell me you are going to use the fungus for that..
22:23:35 <CakeProphet> I wouldn't buy them to look at them under a microscope.
22:23:46 <AnMaster> I'm just going to /clear right now,
22:23:59 <fizzie> CakeProphet: But it explicitly says: good for looking at them under a microscope.
22:24:19 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, just don't kill yourself
22:24:59 <CakeProphet> and there's nothing illegal about talking about shrooms... at least not where I live.
22:25:28 <fizzie> Also just having a link like that on screen sounds unlikely to be illegal. But I am not a lawyer.
22:26:12 <CakeProphet> thus why there can be websites dedicated to selling them.
22:27:04 <CakeProphet> I think you could make a biological computer of some kind. It would just be slow and error-prone.
22:27:45 <fizzie> There's that early DNA computer that solved a seven-node Hamiltonian path problem.
22:27:53 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, we are officially taking about using these spores for computation.
22:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Any other uses are only to be considered in the context of helping the development of the aforementioned.
22:28:39 <fizzie> Nayebi, A (2009). "Parallel DNA implementation of fast matrix multiplication techniques based on an n-moduli set". arXiv: 0912.0750: 1–15.
22:28:43 <fizzie> Oo, they've been doing more.
22:28:57 <fizzie> "What's that bubbling? Oh, I'm just multiplying some matrices."
22:29:44 <fizzie> "It's just my DNA 3D card."
22:30:46 <fizzie> "A design called a stem loop, consisting of a single strand of DNA which has a loop at an end, are a dynamic structure that opens and closes when a piece of DNA bonds to the loop part. This effect has been exploited to create several logic gates. These logic gates have been used to create the computers MAYA I and MAYA II which can play tic-tac-toe to some extent."
22:31:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
22:32:24 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
22:33:00 <coppro> `addquote <CakeProphe> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
22:33:29 <HackEgo> 187|<CakeProphe> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
22:33:34 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: mind you if you do it right, the universe won't know what hit it anyhow
22:34:02 <cpressey> Did you know? Pus is mostly bacterial DNA.
22:34:11 <Phantom_Hoover> We need to start a sky survey searching for some galaxies that spell "COPYING".
22:34:34 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: ha. yes. in English for maximum lulz.
22:35:35 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no no the copyright is encoded in the digits of pi. haven't you read Contact? (/me hasn't read all of it either actually)
22:36:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, iirc there was tic tac toe in DNA
22:36:04 <coppro> ehirdiphone: oops. Can the quote be amended?
22:36:11 <coppro> oerjan: Contact was prime numbers
22:36:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's a bit beyond the digits we can calculate _yet_
22:36:38 <ehirdiphone> coppro: help for link then revert latest rev. No
22:36:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: septendecimal
22:37:21 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:37:31 <HackEgo> Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ list of commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ addremove add all new files, delete all missing files \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ archive create an unversioned archive of a repository revision \ backout reverse
22:37:35 <Phantom_Hoover> ehirdiphone, reminds me of the macguffin in The Algebraist.
22:37:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, iirc they were one time use only
22:37:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so you had to make new chemicals to play again
22:38:19 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, IIRC that's why the XOR gate was interesting.
22:38:50 <coppro> oerjan: you need to readd the last quote
22:38:55 <coppro> <ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it
22:39:13 <coppro> look, I have no clue how
22:39:24 <ais523> coppro: `addquote followed by the quote
22:39:43 <ais523> what /have/ you lot been doing to HackEgo?
22:39:50 <coppro> ais523: I typoed a quote
22:39:58 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:40:10 <coppro> `revert 1516:777246c07e8a
22:40:34 <ehirdiphone> Listen to me if you are going to ask for help
22:40:43 <coppro> >`addquote <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
22:40:46 <coppro> `addquote <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
22:40:48 <HackEgo> 187|<CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
22:41:09 <ehirdiphone> Did you enter the good revision or one after?
22:41:10 <coppro> yes; 1517 was mine; 1516 was the previous one accidentally reverted
22:41:31 <HackEgo> 186|<ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all,
22:42:27 <HackEgo> 187|<CakeProphet> how does a DNA computer work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, thats boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> Its just stealing the
22:43:04 <CakeProphet> hmmm.. apparently GHCi doesn't except type declarations
22:43:27 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:43:39 <oerjan> CakeProphet: nope. !haskell accepts a full module instead of ghci commands if you like, however
22:43:59 <HackEgo> 131|<Warrigal> So, I'm inside a bottle which is being carried by a robot.
22:44:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:44:30 <HackEgo> 186|<ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it
22:44:40 <ais523> hmm, seems to be a bug in playback rather than recording
22:44:50 <oerjan> Gregor: something is wrong with HackEgo's `quote when using search, it gets cut off
22:45:11 <HackEgo> 131|<Warrigal> So, I'm inside a bottle which is being carried by a robot.
22:46:04 <CakeProphet> currently HackEgo is better than botte though
22:46:20 <fungot> CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand he held a long worm can be greased. twice i got it nearly there, and the protector of cattle. mars is also mentioned as a rainbow. as a seated baboon sometimes with its head.
22:46:40 <coppro> quotes.db should just be NSV
22:47:32 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:47:35 <coppro> those are whitespace-sparated, not NUL-separated
22:47:41 <ehirdiphone> line numbering tool to give quote numbers, grep for the search
22:48:01 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Not as far as grep sed awk... are concerned
22:48:02 <fungot> CakeProphet: if you need a wand of undead turning is stupid. odin is usually depicted as a boy he used to describe the occasional village through which they had called it simply biter. they were not trolls but giant orcs; but the olog-hai were in proportion, and an odd color; but all accounts.' ( the fellowship of the ottoman turks, which means old god, was the reason for his master was to be fatal!
22:48:43 <fungot> CakeProphet: they say that you can wrap it round your head to ward off noxious fumes or avoid the gaze of the head of the oak root. bearing it down so far would have been driven out/ decimated by humans/ other dwarfs/ minions of the reasons for its use in hand-to-hand combat; wrap it round your head to browse on the peels.
22:48:59 <ehirdiphone> Then you can use line numbering tools, grep, etc.
22:49:24 <CakeProphet> ahahaha. they say that you can wrap it round your head to ward off noxious fumes or avoid the gaze of the head of the oak root.
22:49:29 <ehirdiphone> Someone please quote "Reading Herbert might be..." by fungot
22:49:29 <fungot> ehirdiphone: they say that an opulent throne room is rarely a place to wish you'd be in quiet lands, or coiling for the enormous egg, or set in another light, i saw what he had dwelt there for about thirteen years, during which time he received it, " hey guys, *wield* a lizard corpse against a cockatrice going to check on the whole course of known life from the north star. ( samurai the story of the higher branches of trees. th
22:49:51 <fungot> ais523: killer bunnies can be harmed by domesticated canines only.
22:50:12 <ais523> `addquote <fungot> CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand he held a long worm can be greased. twice i got it nearly there, and the protector of cattle. mars is also mentioned as a rainbow. as a seated baboon sometimes with its head.
22:50:13 <fungot> ais523: they say that a plain nymph will be tempted to hit the ceiling!' wailed legolas. ' imp' is often written about.
22:50:14 <HackEgo> 188|<fungot> CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand he held a long worm can be greased. twice i got it nearly there, and the protector of cattle. mars is also mentioned as a rainbow. as a seated baboon sometimes with its head.
22:50:19 <ais523> took a while to find in scrollback
22:50:31 <ais523> `quote <fungot> ais523: killer bunnies can be harmed by domesticated canines only.
22:50:32 <fungot> ais523: they say that some horns play hot music and others are too graphic for the treasure their victims may be very pleased if you don't cut yourself.
22:50:57 <ais523> `addquote <fungot> ais523: killer bunnies can be harmed by domesticated canines only.
22:50:58 <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive.
22:50:59 <HackEgo> 189|<fungot> ais523: killer bunnies can be harmed by domesticated canines only.
22:51:02 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:51:22 <ais523> we can't have too much fungot in HackEgo...
22:51:32 <ais523> `quote <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive.
22:51:38 <ais523> `adquote <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive.
22:51:40 <ehirdiphone> Indeed. You can never have too much fungot.
22:51:40 <fungot> ehirdiphone: they say that some shopkeepers consider gems to be quite low. just keep falling!" the poor quarters of this town. in the air and over the world a grid bug won't pay a shopkeeper brings bad luck.
22:51:40 <ais523> `addquote <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive.
22:51:41 <fungot> ais523: they say that the same demon, one would go endlessly along its twisting paths without ever finding the exit!
22:51:43 <HackEgo> 190|<fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive.
22:51:52 <ais523> I wonder how literal that is?
22:52:19 <ais523> ./dat/rumors.tru:They say that cave spiders are not considered expensive health food.
22:52:27 <ais523> so it's been munged quite a bit
22:52:59 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:53:02 <ais523> !c printf("%d\n",'`');
22:53:09 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
22:53:24 <ais523> also, I'm worried that I know the ASCII index of backquote off by heart
22:53:44 <EgoBot> Interpreter he installed.
22:53:53 <HackEgo> 140|<fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
22:54:28 <oerjan> wait, HackEgo doesn't ignore EgoBot?
22:54:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:54:41 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
22:54:52 <ais523> oerjan: most of the bots have ignores, but not that particular set IIRC
22:54:52 <fungot> CakeProphet: ' and who died of blood poisoning?' said
22:54:52 <oerjan> we all know what that means, right? *cackles evilly*
22:55:04 <ais523> and I think EgoBot ignores HackEgo
22:55:19 <EgoBot> `echo !he echo !he echo Okay, stop!
22:55:20 <HackEgo> !he echo !he echo Okay, stop!
22:56:14 <fungot> ehirdiphone: ' and the sound of distant chanting followed them. lu-tze, for the professor of anthropics, who had been left between the walls.
22:56:24 <oerjan> IT WOULD APPEAR OUR PLANS HAVE BEEN THWARTED
22:56:29 <ais523> clog and HackEgo don't ignore each other...
22:56:29 <fizzie> ^bf >>,[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++.!`
22:56:45 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
22:56:56 <oerjan> ais523: clog doesn't send messages to the channel
22:57:06 <fizzie> ^def asc bf >>,[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++.
22:57:13 <CakeProphet> !haskell let backquote = ((toEnum 96):) in print $ backquote "echo sup"
22:57:14 <ehirdiphone> Hey can someone remind me of an idea tomorrow or the day after?
22:57:17 <fizzie> There, the first actually useful fungot command.
22:57:27 <CakeProphet> !haskell let backquote = ((toEnum 96):) in backquote "echo sup"
22:57:52 <fizzie> ehirdiphone: In retrospect, that would have been a better name. But I don't have an ^undef. :p
22:57:54 <CakeProphet> !haskell let backquote = ((toEnum 96):) in putStrLn $ backquote "echo sup"
22:58:20 <fizzie> ^def ord bf >>,[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++.
22:58:26 <fizzie> Maybe I can clean up 'asc' later.
22:58:32 <fizzie> Also maybe it should loop.
22:59:33 <fizzie> ^def ord bf >>,[[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>,]
22:59:37 <fungot> 98 117 103 116 101 115 116
22:59:50 <CakeProphet> ....there's no way I could comprehend that bf program.
23:00:15 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Yes, I believe you were about to tell us your idea.
23:00:15 <fizzie> It was actually a newline. :p
23:00:28 <fizzie> I can put one at the end if you like.
23:00:33 <ehirdiphone> ^def ord bf >>,[[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>,].
23:00:47 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:00:54 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
23:01:00 <ehirdiphone> fizzie: If you could add a comma betwixt characters that'd be cool too. :P
23:01:02 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
23:01:18 <ais523> what does "betwixt" actually means?
23:01:21 <EgoBot> There is already an interpreter for !
23:01:44 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Why do you need reminding -- do you think you'll forget it? Do you not have access to paper?
23:01:58 <cpressey> If you don't, I would believe that, but it's very sad.
23:01:59 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
23:02:13 <ais523> hmm, what happened to `define?
23:02:16 <fizzie> ais523: Wordnet has just 1. between, betwixt -- (in the interval; "dancing all the dances with little rest between")
23:02:18 <EgoBot> Hey folks how are yew all doin'?
23:02:24 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: I'm not trying to be difficult, just overly curious maybe.
23:02:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:03:09 <EgoBot> Hello my name is Georgia W Bush
23:03:10 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: I don't like bringing things back. Nice to have a weekend without that crap.
23:03:25 <cpressey> I should maybe add a smith interpreter to egobot someday. Yeah, like I don't have enough things to do.
23:03:32 <EgoBot> Ist das kraut as in krautrock?
23:04:08 <oerjan> ais523: HackEgo has never had define that i recall, you just use cat >bin/whatever
23:04:18 <fungot> srml ntebabelmr h iebac
23:04:26 <ais523> oerjan: I mean, I thought it looked up Google Dictionary
23:04:51 <CakeProphet> !sffffffffedeesh Hello my name is CakeProphet I like to program in esoteric programming languages and make BLACK MAGIC
23:04:52 <EgoBot> Hellu my neme-a is CekePruphet I leeke-a tu prugrem in isutereec prugremmeeng lungooeges und meke-a BLECK MEGIC
23:04:55 <oerjan> ais523: oh that. all the google-based commands broke in one of google's redesigns, i thikn
23:05:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:07:14 <CakeProphet> !haskell map putStrLn $ take 3 $ repeat "fungot"
23:07:15 <fungot> CakeProphet: chicken has a profiler too... of course you have to edit the makefile must support a dase, simply classify the dase list into supported by 3 implementations, 5 implementations, more implementations.
23:07:53 <oerjan> CakeProphet: the one that throws away the result value
23:08:11 <EgoBot> mapM_ :: (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m ()
23:08:32 <EgoBot> mapM :: (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
23:08:52 <EgoBot> replicate :: Int -> a -> [a]
23:09:02 <ehirdiphone> !haskell mapM_ putStrLn (replicate 3 "fungot")
23:09:03 <fungot> ehirdiphone: bf2a version 0.2?
23:09:07 <CakeProphet> !haskell mapM_ putStrLn $ take 3 $ repeat "fungot"
23:09:08 <fungot> CakeProphet: it really depends on how your keyboard is wired, certain combinations of keys to generate a content that fnord the " error"
23:09:24 <oerjan> !haskell :t replicateM
23:09:42 <CakeProphet> ....so many Haskell monad functions that I don't know very well.
23:09:46 <oerjan> that probably needs an import. although why no DCC...
23:09:55 <cpressey> It's that time again. Good evening, all.
23:10:02 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:10:18 <EgoBot> Control.Monad.replicateM :: (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m [a]
23:10:23 <ehirdiphone> !haskell putStrLn . unwords $ replicate 3 "fungot"
23:10:23 <fungot> ehirdiphone: fnord fnord 27.00 1 fnord eest 1999 i686 unknown
23:10:45 <oerjan> ah right ghci does autoimporting
23:11:04 <ehirdiphone> Bye cpressey, god inamongst men. May your ephemera persist indefinitely! Amen.
23:11:16 <CakeProphet> !haskell let spam = Control.Monad.replicateM in spam 3 $ putStr "yo dawg"
23:11:18 <EgoBot> yo dawgyo dawgyo dawg[(),(),()]
23:11:24 <Gregor-P> oerjan: HackBot always truncates its output, it's not `quote-specific.
23:12:09 <CakeProphet> I don't understand why all of the list functions
23:12:28 <oerjan> Gregor-P: it truncated much more than usual
23:12:37 <HackEgo> 186|<ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all,
23:12:44 <HackEgo> 186|<ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it
23:12:46 <ehirdiphone> CakeProphet: Because it's nice to write purely functional list code.
23:13:04 <CakeProphet> it seems like you could merge replicate and replicateM somehow.
23:13:10 <HackEgo> 116|<Dylan> s/Hebrew/senile/
23:13:14 <HackEgo> 102|<Madelon> I want to read about Paris in the period 1900-1914 <Madelon> not about the sexual preferences of a bunch of writers >.>
23:13:20 <ais523> yes, that's my current theory
23:13:24 <HackEgo> 3|<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
23:14:06 <oerjan> ais523: it only truncates when you give it a string to search for
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23:14:20 <HackEgo> 102|<Madelon> I want to read about Paris in the period 1900-1914 <Madelon> not about the sexual preferences of a bunch of writers >.>
23:14:28 <ais523> I also suspect that in such a case, it only truncates at commas
23:14:29 -!- augur has joined.
23:14:42 <HackEgo> 2|<Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. 4|<lament> i read paths as penis :( 5|<Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. 9|<Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR>
23:14:59 <oerjan> ais523: heh it left in a comma there
23:15:11 <HackEgo> 167|<alise> like, just like Id mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: thats great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
23:15:12 <ais523> but then, it gave multiple outut
23:15:45 <ais523> I agree on the WTF here
23:15:58 <ehirdiphone> ("I'd" can be verified on hg history page.)
23:16:01 <ais523> theory: the output's being sent over a shell unquoted
23:16:12 <CakeProphet> I bet there's some way you could make arbitrary functions pattern matchable.
23:16:49 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:17:04 <CakeProphet> is I bet you can write code that allows /your/ functions to be pattern matchable.
23:17:19 <CakeProphet> essentially like defining an inverse for a function or something similar.
23:17:45 <oerjan> CakeProphet: replicate and replicateM don't have compatible types, there is no way to make a monad for which m a = a exactly as types
23:18:29 <ais523> hmm, presumably you can't easily get rid of them
23:18:37 <oerjan> CakeProphet: and in fact not allowing type definitions such as type M a = a to have typeclass instances is a vital restriction to make the typeclass system decidable
23:19:07 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:19:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:19:19 <Gregor-P> Oh, go implement your own damned `delquote
23:19:30 <oerjan> CakeProphet: oh wait hm i'm misremembering what the types are aren't i
23:19:41 <EgoBot> replicate :: Int -> a -> [a]
23:19:49 <oerjan> !haskell :t Control.Monad.replicateM
23:19:50 <EgoBot> Control.Monad.replicateM :: (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m [a]
23:20:09 <oerjan> CakeProphet: ah no that's exactly what i said
23:21:29 <ais523> hmm, the cause of the market crash on May 6 was discovered, and it's hilarious
23:22:12 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ DB="sqlite3 quotes/quote.db" \ \ if [ "$1" ] \ then \ ARG=$1 \ ID=$((ARG+0)) \ if [ "$ID" = "$ARG" ] \ then \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE id='$ID \ else \ ARG=`echo "$ARG" | sed 's/'\''/'\'\''/g'` \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE quote LIKE
23:22:32 <ais523> basically, it seems that the high-frequency computer traders hit on the ingenious idea of rapidly posting huge numbers of trade requests that wouldn't be fulfilled because they were miles outside the normal trade rates, in an attempt to DOS their competitors
23:22:36 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:23:09 <CakeProphet> (adds to the disorienting conversation throughput) fungot
23:23:10 <fungot> CakeProphet: so you meant " only it doesn't work :( too hard... afk then :) if you can write the mean of a list
23:23:23 <ehirdiphone> ais523: It's basically nuclear war over ethernet...
23:23:54 <ais523> yes, anyway there was apparently a small swing in the market that meant some of these crazy trades were accepted
23:23:58 <ais523> and it all went insane from there
23:24:11 <ais523> also, the markets were lagging due to everyone trying to DOS each other
23:26:11 <HackEgo> $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE id='$ID \ else \ ARG=`echo "$ARG" | sed 's/'\''/'\'\''/g'` \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE quote LIKE '\''%'"$ARG"'%'\' | xargs echo \ fi \ \ else \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes ORDER BY RANDOM() LIMIT 1' \ \ fi
23:26:26 <CakeProphet> can type declarations in Haskell be recursive as long as they terminate?
23:26:45 -!- coppro has joined.
23:26:47 <oerjan> CakeProphet: how could they possibly terminate?
23:27:07 <CakeProphet> oerjan: hmmm, well if you give them parameters and pattern matching.
23:28:26 <CakeProphet> hmmm... I was going to try Peano arithmetic but I am trouble formulating how it would work. I think what I had in mind is dependent types, actually.
23:29:04 <oerjan> ais523: it seems that case gets sent through xargs echo
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23:29:23 <ais523> that wouldn't break on commas, though, or delete single quotes
23:29:40 <ais523> hmm, perhaps it's going through a round of SQL unescaping, or something like that?
23:31:11 <ehirdiphone> CakeProphet is reinventing type theory. Badly.
23:31:23 <oerjan> `run grep xargs bin/quote
23:31:24 <HackEgo> $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE quote LIKE '\''%'"$ARG"'%'\' | xargs echo
23:31:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:32:22 <oerjan> `run sed 's/xargs echo/fmt -w500' bin/quote > bin/quote2
23:32:54 <oerjan> `run chmod +x bin/quote2
23:33:32 <CakeProphet> type Zero; type Succ a; type Add Zero y = y; Add x Zero = x; Add x (Succ b) = Add (Succ x) b
23:34:10 <oerjan> `run sed 's/xargs echo/fmt -w500/' bin/quote > bin/quote2
23:34:24 <HackEgo> 131|<Warrigal> So, I'm inside a bottle which is being carried by a robot. 159|<soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists
23:34:38 <oerjan> `run mv bin/quote2 bin/quote
23:34:52 <HackEgo> 109|<Warrigal> What do you call the husband of my first cousin once removed? <apollo> Warrigal: "Hey, Sexy."
23:34:56 <HackEgo> 186|<ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it
23:35:00 <CakeProphet> ehirdiphone: Google is destroying conversations all over the world. :(
23:35:16 <oerjan> ais523: it would appear the xargs echo _was_ the culprit
23:36:48 <ehirdiphone> Some parts are broken as I note in the post
23:37:13 <ehirdiphone> http://ehird.blogspot.com/2010/01/computing-fib3-in-haskells-type-system.html
23:37:15 <oerjan> Gregor-P: ok we actually _did_ fix a command ourselves. happy? :D
23:37:54 <coppro> ehirdiphone: C++ templates do too :P
23:38:43 <Gregor-P> oerjan: Monkeypatching doesn't count X-P
23:39:38 <ehirdiphone> Gregor-P: That's not what monkeypatching is; and quit whining.
23:40:30 <Gregor-P> That is what monkeypatching is though...
23:42:13 <Sgeo_> The Futurama admins are Reddit fans
23:42:25 <Sgeo_> Erm, the Reddit admins are Futurama fans
23:42:34 <ehirdiphone> Monkeypatching is a program modifying functions or a class it does not own at runtime.
23:42:45 <CakeProphet> ehirdiphone: What extension allows instance (N n) => N (S n)
23:43:37 <CakeProphet> oh... hmm. I've just never seen an instance declaration like that. Or maybe my brain is dead right now.
23:44:15 <CakeProphet> the class constraint and single-character variables were confusing me.
23:44:16 <oerjan> CakeProphet: try the Show instance for lists
23:44:56 <CakeProphet> essentially (S n) is an instance of N as long as n is an instance of N. got it.
23:45:33 <CakeProphet> does Haskell 98 allow the instance/typeclass declarations to be empty like that?
23:46:36 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i don't recall
23:48:19 <oerjan> haskell 98 does have some braindead restrictions though, for example instance (N n) => N (S Int n) is invalid, only variables are permitted inside S
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23:51:45 <CakeProphet> ehirdiphone: would having two declarations for Show fix the overlapping instances thing?
23:53:55 <oerjan> um having two declarations that overlap is usually what _causes_ it, n'est pas?
23:59:09 <CakeProphet> I now want to implement linked lists with types. :)