< 1277424115 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night < 1277424134 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1277424561 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the implications are huge < 1277424585 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think of all the time you'll save hacking together adhoc computation systems... and the efficiency boost from all that compile-time computation! < 1277424719 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null < 1277424755 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every decent compiler does compile-time computation < 1277424768 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recomputing, say, 60 * 5 each execution is idiotic < 1277424781 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that I do not consider the LSL compiler to be "decent" < 1277424806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's software from Linden Labs. "Decent" is not something they do. < 1277424808 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: what if the definitions of 60 and 5 change? or *? < 1277424812 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to go home, anyway < 1277424815 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277424827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: hi people. I can has had slept now < 1277425504 0 :jix!~jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277425947 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a note posted on the Free Software Foundation's news website in June 2009, Richard Stallman warned that he believes "Microsoft is probably planning to force all free C# implementations underground some day using software patents" and recommended that developers avoid taking what he described as the "gratuitous risk" associated with "depend[ing] on the free C# implementations", including Mono < 1277425999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RMS warns about dangers of software patents. In other news, Linus Torvalds continues to maintain Linux. < 1277426031 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha. < 1277426073 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subsequently, the Free Software Foundation reiterated its warnings,[36] claiming that the extension of Microsoft Community Promise to the C# and the CLI ECMA specifications[37] would not prevent Microsoft from harming open source implementations of C#, because many specific Windows libraries included with .NET or Mono were not covered by this promise, examples include regular expressions and XML which the FSF considers now dangero < 1277426083 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha... I can see XML being dangerous. but regular expressions? Come on. < 1277426192 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These warnings, however, were countered by Miguel de Icaza on the GNOME Foundation mailing-list[39], saying That article now leads us to believe that there is something "magical" about the way that Microsoft implements regular expressions or how they implemented XSLT and XPath. If you cant find prior art for that, you probably should leave the software industry while you are still ahead. < 1277426204 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet there /is/ something magical about the way Microsoft implements regex. < 1277426207 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very magical. < 1277426345 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone used F#. I kind of looks awful to me but I don't much about it. < 1277426349 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it < 1277426350 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277426438 0 :Rafajafar!~chatzilla@wsip-98-172-30-228.dc.dc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277426494 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been directed here from #math < 1277426501 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277426517 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they said you guys would understand more of what I'm saying, that you're all really bright, and very snarky :-) < 1277426543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snark? here? what lying scum told you that? < 1277426551 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there anyone here willing to discuss something I figured out about the nature of the Nth prime problem? < 1277426561 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait. someone hide the topic, QUICKLY < 1277426574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_possibly_ < 1277426581 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I basically have shown that the problem is essentially a "circular square" < 1277426587 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the Nth prime problem... < 1277426598 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that its very definition undermines its existence < 1277426609 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful! Allow me to explain that problem < 1277426637 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Nth prime problem is as such... is there a formula which will map all natural numbers to a corresponding prime < 1277426638 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that reminds me of something i read on a blog just the other day < 1277426649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order? < 1277426659 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words, is there a function Mu(n) where n is a naturual number and its out put is the Nth prime in the number line < 1277426666 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes in order < 1277426688 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it was http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/ < 1277426694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ulam spiral) < 1277426717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am pretty darned certain that there exists such a function, yes. < 1277426723 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the oldest as most difficult unsolved problems in mathematics < 1277426726 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I was too < 1277426730 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 8 years I looked of it < 1277426739 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked *for it < 1277426754 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there definitely is a _function_. whether there's any formula/algorithm for quickly calculating it, is a different matter. < 1277426771 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you say there definitely is a function < 1277426781 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b/c there isnt at this time < 1277426782 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a sec while I write it in Haskell. < 1277426789 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not the Nth prime formula < 1277426802 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're talking about the sieve solutions < 1277426806 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not the same < 1277426824 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is to find all primes under X, then you build a list of primes < 1277426835 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then pick the Nth prime from that list < 1277426855 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Nth prime formula is you're given the number n and it returns the corresponding prime < 1277426886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: yes. that is a completely permissible function _and_ algorithm for computing that function, by all relevant mathematical definitions. it's just not very efficient. < 1277426891 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very different, apples and oranges (and your haskell implementation of the sieve will be very inefficient if you used functional programming... just food for thought) < 1277426933 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wrong, that is a completely different function and algorithm and it is not the problem I'm discussing < 1277426966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mu = let primes = sieve [2..];sieve (p:xs) = p : sieve (filter ((/=0).(`mod`p)) xs in (primes!!) < 1277426997 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: You asked for a function from a natural to the Nth prime. < 1277427001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have implemented such a function. < 1277427006 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I always prefer where over let. Looks so much clearer. < 1277427029 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moo < 1277427033 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: it appears that you are not well acquainted with what mathematics considers a function to be. < 1277427041 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, I *strongly* believe that you need to clarify your definition of the Nth prime problem, as, as it stands, it is trivially given. < 1277427119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: of course there can be _many_ algorithms for computing a given function, but all ways of computing the nth prime compute the same function < 1277427120 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: actually, I think you are at this point < 1277427123 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway < 1277427151 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to clarify the problem, we're not looking for the output to be a list of primes < 1277427156 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw... shits about to get intense. < 1277427163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: i'm sorry, but i think you are trolling. also, i have a math phd. < 1277427163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And my implementation of "mu" does not have this. < 1277427167 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"inb4" < 1277427177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let mu = let primes = sieve [2..];sieve (p:xs) = p : sieve (filter ((/=0).(`mod`p)) xs in (primes!!) in mu 0 < 1277427189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK YOU EGOBOT < 1277427198 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1277427199 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . < 1277427222 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this without getting reamed at this point < 1277427224 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give me a moment < 1277427238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let primes = sieve [2..];sieve (p:xs) = p : sieve (filter ((/=0).(`mod`p)) xs;mu = (primes!!)in mu 0 < 1277427248 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From what I can tell, you just want to do the same thing without computing it recursively/iteratively/whatever < 1277427255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let primes = sieve [2..];sieve (p:xs) = p : sieve (filter ((/=0).(`mod`p)) xs;mu = (primes!!) in mu 0 < 1277427256 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a magical formula or something? < 1277427263 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the problem, correct < 1277427278 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're trying to find a "connection" from one prime to the next < 1277427290 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w/o scanning all numbers to figure out if something is prime < 1277427296 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds much more challenging then. < 1277427306 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I'm very sorry I did not explain it well < 1277427318 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let primes = sieve [2..];sieve (p:xs) = p : sieve (filter ((/=0).(`mod`p))) xs;mu = (primes!!) in mu 0 < 1277427332 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the input is a natural number, the out put is that number's corresponding prime < 1277427338 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*output < 1277427361 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Mu(1) = 2, Mu(2) = 3 Mu(4) = 5... etc < 1277427365 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell let {primes = sieve [2..];sieve (p:xs) = p : sieve (filter ((/=0).(`mod`p))) xs; mu = (primes!!)} in mu 0 < 1277427365 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1277427382 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have to scan all primes, you must "know" all primes before you can find the Nth prime < 1277427383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Egobot just told me fungot. < 1277427383 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: me badly needs sleep to complete it properly ( yet). < 1277427401 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hmmm, maybe it would be easier to switch the let to a where? < 1277427413 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would fix some kind of syntax problem that I currently cannot identify? < 1277427416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: No. < 1277427426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I cannot type the requisite newline for where. < 1277427442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: No. < 1277427452 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and oerjan: I'm sorry, I just re-read, I think we had a miscommunication on my part < 1277427464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: In this version, one need know the first N primes. < 1277427465 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: well, by that description alone such a thing can already be done. But that's not /all/ you seem to be asking for. You are looking for a different method of finding primes that relies on an intrinsic, incremental property rather than a test. < 1277427476 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: requisite newline? < 1277427507 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell putStrLn src ++ (show src) where src = "putStrLn src ++ (show src) where" < 1277427508 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct CakeProphet < 1277427520 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: but I can't think of a way to describe that formally. < 1277427523 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we were to find a "pattern in primes" < 1277427541 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell putStrLn $ src ++ (show src) where src = "putStrLn $ src ++ (show src) where " < 1277427545 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then well, all encryption would break overnight lol < 1277427547 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1277427551 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell print "test" < 1277427553 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"test" < 1277427556 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. haha. < 1277427632 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* so I really want to have a discussion, because I think I've shown that either A) there is no such pattern or B) if that pattern were to exist, it could not be defined using multiplication or any multiplication-derived operation < 1277427682 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1277427685 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *really* want to have someone poke holes in the idea too < 1277427699 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: it is quite likely that you are correct that this is a hard, possibly impossible function to calculate effectively. it's inverse function is essentially the one at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime-counting_function. moreover approximating it well is connected with the riemann hypothesis, one of the most famous unsolved problems in all of mathematics. < 1277427726 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = "putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = " < 1277427726 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes! < 1277427735 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1277427737 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....I don't understand why that program is not working. < 1277427759 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't src already a string? < 1277427767 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :show would give it the quotes < 1277427773 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a quine. < 1277427787 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could have sworn I typed in the exact same thing just a while ago and it worked. < 1277427788 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1277427791 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme check my original. < 1277427803 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell iterate (*2) 1 < 1277427815 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... duh. I know why < 1277427816 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell putStrLn "If you can't see this, the bot is down" < 1277427821 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can't see this, the bot is down < 1277427838 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = "main = putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = " < 1277427841 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main = putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = "main = putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = " < 1277427843 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1277427851 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot you can't have a where binding outside of a function definition. :) < 1277427883 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell pascal = iterate (\row -> zipWith (+) ([0] ++ row) (row ++ [0])) [1] < 1277427901 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t iterate < 1277427903 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iterate :: (a -> a) -> a -> [a] < 1277427917 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell take 10 $ iterate (+3) 2 < 1277427918 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[2,5,8,11,14,17,20,23,26,29] < 1277427924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: EgoBot doesn't deal with infinite output well, you need to use take to cut it off somewhere. < 1277427933 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: your program will never terminate because iterate constructs an infinite list. < 1277427954 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you are too late. :P < 1277427955 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yah < 1277427977 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanted to see what would happen, I got an error msged to me < 1277427983 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: His program will never do anything because the act of just defining something has no side effects. < 1277427983 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: LambdaBot over in #haskell is fancy and will terminate it for you, I believe. < 1277427986 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1277428003 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well... there's an implied print. < 1277428006 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case. < 1277428013 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: WAY TO BE PEDANTIC < 1277428044 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think) < 1277428080 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is a goofy language, a bit too obfuscated for production stuff... I'll stick with perl (LMAO) < 1277428122 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sooo, any brilliant logicians with a math background want to listen to the ramblings of a computer scientist, oerjan? < 1277428144 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = (\src -> putStrLn ( src ++ (show src))) $ "main = (\src -> putStrLn (src ++ (show src))) $ " < 1277428167 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't sure if he is brilliant enough for this, but shoot
< 1277428224 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: ha. Perl for production stuff. Surely you're joking. :D < 1277428236 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really at all < 1277428243 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's come a long way since 1994 < 1277428248 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1277428251 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i note that that the algorithms on that wp page improve on the sieve somewhat, but that it still doesn't seem _fast_ < 1277428251 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of. < 1277428265 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pay the bills with Web Development < 1277428275 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look into the Catalyst Framework < 1277428290 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think proving the impossibility of such a thing would be the route to take. < 1277428330 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: there's known problems with functional programming being able to write efficient sieves ... you can write one, it just will not be as fast as procedural languages < 1277428359 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can write imperative code in Haskell, iirc < 1277428364 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they solve some parrelel programming issues, then it'll be fixed with a quickness < 1277428366 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can < 1277428390 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually don't know the sieve algorithm so I can't really discuss this. < 1277428451 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a look at the little animated graphic on the wikipedia page was /not/ helpful. < 1277428459 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :colors, circles, and x's EVERYWHERE < 1277428479 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: well i've read that naive functional implementations of the sieve aren't really like the sieve, at least (do far too much) < 1277428492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*much work < 1277428530 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there languages where most "naive" implementations are actually ok ones? < 1277428534 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've read a few papers where they knock a couple orders out, but it still doesnt come close... you have to either sacrifice runtime memory or speed... it's a direct tradeoff < 1277428546 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In 2008, Melissa O'Neill showed that the complexity of Turner's algorithm is significantly worse than the complexity of the classic imperative renditions of the sieve.[7] O'Neill demonstrated a priority queue based rendition of the sieve of Eratosthenes in Haskell with complexity similar to that of the classic imperative implementations. < 1277428555 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol I cun lurk wp < 1277428788 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so I have my explanation of what I'm talking about dealing with the Nth prime issue stuck up online < 1277428793 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an IRC chat < 1277428794 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell primes = sieve [2..] where sieve (p : xs) = p : sieve [x | x <- xs, x `mod` p > 0]; main = print $ take 10 $ primes < 1277428798 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scroll down < 1277428799 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://onlinekarma.net/primes.html < 1277428928 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = putStrLn $ take 10 $ primes where primes = sieve [2..]; sieve [] = undefined; sieve (p : xs) = p : sieve [x | x <- xs, x `mod` p > 0] < 1277428937 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = print $ take 10 $ primes where primes = sieve [2..]; sieve [] = undefined; sieve (p : xs) = p : sieve [x | x <- xs, x `mod` p > 0] < 1277428940 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29] < 1277428944 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go. < 1277428948 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is pleased.
< 1277429158 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = print $ f 5 where f n = do {x <- [1..n]; y <- [1..n]; [x*y]} < 1277429161 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,2,3,4,5,2,4,6,8,10,3,6,9,12,15,4,8,12,16,20,5,10,15,20,25] < 1277429210 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :list-the-monad would be so much better if concatMap weren't terrible. < 1277429351 0 :AnMaster_!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1277429361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1277429374 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1277429408 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :t (>>=) < 1277429410 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(>>=) :: (Monad m) => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b < 1277429465 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have some notes I took < 1277429467 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://onlinekarma.net/Prime%20Number%20Independence%20Theorem.pdf < 1277429507 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a particular form of (->) that is an instance of monad? < 1277429508 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: still there? < 1277429557 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-106-123-171.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277429604 0 :oerjan_!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1277429720 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1277429720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1277429720 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1277429721 0 :Adrian^L!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1277429733 0 :Adrian^L!adrian@phalse.2600.COM JOIN :#esoteric < 1277429755 0 :oerjan_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oerjan < 1277429789 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pikhq < 1277429811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: (->) e is a monad if you import Control.Monad.Reader < 1277429872 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah. < 1277429983 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmmm... how does one get a value of type (->) e? < 1277430067 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't, it has kind * -> * so you need a final type to it (as for all monads) < 1277430099 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right. I forgot how that works exactly. < 1277430100 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... < 1277430105 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically < 1277430109 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the input type is concerned < 1277430113 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the monad operators. < 1277430138 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am I missing something about how instances work? < 1277430177 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... nevermind I've got it. < 1277430186 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just substitue in (->) e for "m" < 1277430227 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1277430242 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type parameters were confusing me. :P < 1277430318 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm so.... < 1277430476 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f >>= g = (\k -> g (f k) k) -- ??? < 1277430509 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what it's doing for (+3)>>=(+) at least < 1277430522 0 :AnMaster_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1277430590 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... no < 1277430626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is correct iirc < 1277430658 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1277430658 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1277430659 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1277430659 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1277430680 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude Control.Monad.Reader> (head>>=(:)) [3] < 1277430680 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[3,3] < 1277430708 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting. < 1277430733 0 :augur!~augur@96.231.217.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277430733 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277430733 0 :Gregor-P!~AndChat@108.121.39.18 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277430733 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@pool-96-233-51-203.bstnma.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277430733 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1277430735 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1277430790 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest59384 < 1277430818 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's kind of like a partial application monad < 1277431014 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually.. no < 1277431017 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just really weird. :P < 1277431026 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it has some use in Reader. < 1277431240 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude Control.Monad.Reader> (do {f <- head; (f:)}) [3] < 1277431241 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[3,3] < 1277431243 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird < 1277431287 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so [3] is applied to both f and the function returned by the do-block < 1277431437 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.....why < 1277431459 0 :Guest59384!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur_ < 1277431980 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1277432004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: it's in reader because it's really isomorphic to the Reader monad which is also defined there < 1277432042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also "useful" for doing point-free programming tricks < 1277432068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lambdabot uses it a lot in its @free command) < 1277432069 0 :yiyus!~124271242@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1277432084 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure i recall the name correctly) < 1277432100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh @pl iirc < 1277432106 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1277432206 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1277432442 0 :maedhros777!~michael@c-76-118-245-128.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277432548 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone know if there's something wrong with this compiler? http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Fugue_Compiler < 1277432575 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried running the binary it generated and the result I got was "bash: ./hworld.obj: cannot execute binary file" < 1277432659 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I tried generating the disassembly, but it's in CSV < 1277432662 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't run it < 1277432684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1277432753 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-171.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277433274 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539] < 1277433687 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any ideas? < 1277433781 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1277433824 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I might just try http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Velato instead < 1277433837 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like its "Hello, world" :D < 1277433921 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277433921 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1277433968 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277434019 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277434498 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h126.48.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277434542 0 :Rafajafar!~chatzilla@pool-96-255-139-175.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277434550 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello! < 1277434657 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277435199 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rafajafar: howdy. < 1277435205 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interested in esoteric languages? < 1277435216 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1277435221 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm interested in all languages < 1277435244 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen FRACTRAN? < 1277435250 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1277435252 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it involved primes so I believe it is up your alley. < 1277435258 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :learned brainf*ck a while back < 1277435276 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Fractran < 1277435316 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I've read this on reddit < 1277435484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh fractran does indeed depend on primes and multiplication < 1277435542 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You're not online, but I guess you know that. < 1277435878 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1277436007 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tests this connection's lag, by typing.
< 1277436010 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Acceptable. < 1277436027 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tests it some more, by typing some more.
< 1277436032 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Barely acceptable. < 1277436064 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can type faster than the packets can get to the destination and back! < 1277436066 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1277436392 0 :augur!~augur@96.231.217.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277437256 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1277437541 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1277437541 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1277437743 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm sorry CakeProphet < 1277437762 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to go help my girl make a menu for a big job offer she just got < 1277437805 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fractran is interest < 1277438387 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277438988 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1277439103 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277439258 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I want to invent a feat called "MERCIFUL TO GIBBERING MOUTHERS", and a spell of the same name (but not necessarily the same effect). (Note: There is a power and a feat both called "Animal Affinity" but they are unrelated to eachother) < 1277439402 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277439449 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277439488 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1277439675 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know what to write < 1277440401 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277440407 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-13-124.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277440432 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1277440485 0 :Gregor!~Gregor@67-129-37-226.dia.static.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277440559 0 :yiyus!~124271242@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1277440583 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://codu.org/tmp/pianopano3.jpeg < 1277441173 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: say, you said once that you're in a closed time loop. < 1277441186 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, assuming you were telling the truth... < 1277441195 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which of course I am. < 1277441202 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you generally remember what's about to happen to you? < 1277441224 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. 's been too long. < 1277441234 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nods.
< 1277441238 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long is the loop, anyway? < 1277441340 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to know, has anyone in here written any music using non-standard notes? < 1277441341 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall there being some very good reason not to divulge that information, although I don't remember exactly why ... to be safe, I'll just keep it to myself. < 1277441352 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1277441361 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you remember any events that are nearer in the future than in the past? < 1277441389 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only really major things, and there's nothing major that will happen for a while, so no. < 1277441392 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think Gregor has written music containing C flats. :P But that's not what you meant. < 1277441402 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What do you mean? < 1277441423 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes, that isn't what I meant. I meant notes that are not in a 12-TET scale (2^(1/12)) < 1277441431 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: do you ever muse about doing something other than what you actually will do? < 1277441455 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm about to buy this car. I think I'll buy a different car instead." < 1277441459 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Nope, I already proved that my entire loop is predetermined and unchangeable a few years from now. < 1277441495 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I use the word "muse" for a reason. I muse about what the world would be like if 2 + 2 were 5. < 1277441518 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Not much *shrugs* < 1277441523 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Do you need a subjunctive television set to do that? < 1277441525 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. < 1277441541 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what does television have to do with it? < 1277441561 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, if I actually wrote music, I'm sure I would write music with notes not in a 12-TET scale. :P < 1277441601 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: It has nothing to do with television at all. I just made a comment based on what Hofstadter wrote. Of course it doesn't exist < 1277441621 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not familiar with what Hodstadter wrote about subjunctive television. < 1277441634 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: If you wrote music, what notes would you use, then? < 1277441693 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Notes like "B flat, 31 cents down". < 1277441745 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you are just going to put the cents in yourself without being part of any scale? < 1277441772 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I might come up with some accidental that means "31 cents down". < 1277441782 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Stable time loop, eh? < 1277441783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How curious. < 1277441797 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: O, OK. < 1277441802 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might also be more vague, saying stuff like "a little bit flat", "a little bit sharp". < 1277441820 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what would an unstable time loop look like? < 1277441862 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: So, you are going to write music that is not even in tune! Is that what you are going to do? < 1277441875 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12-TET is not in tune. :) < 1277441914 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Chaotic. < 1277441949 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orchestras are tuned kind of randomly anyway. There are lots of instruments that have a continuum of pitches instead of a discrete set. < 1277441990 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1277441997 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Equal temperament is not in tune. < 1277442041 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Do you mean for example like a guitar where you can push the string anywhere, and does not have to be on one of the lines? < 1277442069 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a guitar isn't usually an example of one of these instruments. But if you can find a fretless guitar, then yes. < 1277442102 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also the trombone. The kazoo. :P < 1277442115 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes, I forgot about those ones too < 1277442118 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, equal temperament is simply not *too* far out of tune most of the time. < 1277442123 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Viol{in,ola,oncello} < 1277442227 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, is equal temperament is in tune for equal temperament? < 1277442237 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's ... sort of meaningless :P < 1277442256 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "in tune" I meant that major intervals are proper intervals. < 1277442313 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which of course equal temperament is not. < 1277442340 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by "major" I don't mean the musical sense of "major" :P < 1277442355 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: OK, that's what you meant by "in tune". What I meant by "in tune" was that it matches the tuning of the scale, which is something different. < 1277442356 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I kinda assumed that. :P < 1277442358 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I was wondering why major intervals were so much more important than minor ones. < 1277442371 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, major intervals are just the inversions of minor intervals. < 1277442453 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean proper proper intervals like rational numbers, like just intonation, is that what you meant? < 1277442503 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did Pythagoras invent music theory? < 1277442554 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it, at the time they probably didn't know about frequencies. < 1277442640 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CccaGaKOlSI <-- this is awesome < 1277442980 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91-114-224-77.adsl.highway.telekom.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1277443259 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277443809 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null < 1277444049 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1277444335 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1277444688 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1277444692 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277444883 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277445432 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1277445600 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277446217 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277446632 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@pool-96-233-51-203.bstnma.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277446832 0 :Rafajafar!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158] < 1277447564 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277448063 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1277448076 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" oerjan: actually, I think you are at this point" <<< i would've banned him at this point < 1277448232 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you could make it well-defined to calculate the Nth prime without finding any prime before it < 1277448241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: erm in afterthought, that would have been a bad idea < 1277448287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION now suspects he just left out a word in that sentence, or something
< 1277448417 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :along the lines of whether there exists a program that extracts smaller primes from an ID at some point during program run < 1277448428 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that does it in say L < 1277448457 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(look oerjan you taught me a new character.) < 1277448494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm the nth prime can be calculated in L, anyhow. < 1277448529 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1277448548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1277448578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in linear space < 1277448692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was calculating enough primes to write a number in chinese remainder form that could be done in L < 1277448715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those primes only need to have logarithmic size compared to the number < 1277448746 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I seem to recall there being some very good reason not to divulge that information, although I don't remember exactly why ... to be safe, I'll just keep it to myself." <<< because that's worked so well for the past infinite number of iterations of the loop? < 1277448757 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1277448768 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i misunderstood what your point was < 1277448771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this was a step in the division proof) < 1277448915 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" 12-TET is not in tune. :)" <<< yes it is, it's the definition of in tune < 1277449100 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right, shit < 1277449118 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah defining something like that always runs into problems < 1277449233 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while music started with retarded scales that use ratios, we realized at some point that the only thing that matters is we can map notes to numbers mentally, and that the important thing is symmetry of the scale, not how it sounds. < 1277449261 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most beautiful intervals don't have a nice integer ratio on any scale < 1277449268 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 and 11 that is < 1277449290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0+6 and 0+11 i mean < 1277449357 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1277449373 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my ramblings are really hard to read < 1277449399 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wrote this a minute ago and already i'm wondering what topic each sentence is on < 1277449418 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not wondering but confusing myself momentarily < 1277449426 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well see ya -> < 1277449723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1277449979 0 :Mathnerd314_!~mathnerd3@pool-96-233-51-203.bstnma.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277450016 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277450104 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-3-26.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277450132 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277450132 0 :Mathnerd314_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Mathnerd314 < 1277451611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is today special in some way < 1277451625 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1277451635 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do people work normally tady < 1277451637 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*today < 1277451839 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so turns out it's one of the biggest holidays of the year < 1277451877 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uni was closed, it was scary < 1277451926 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1277452190 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277452192 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277452799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1277452800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1277453580 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Today's not such a big deal everywhere, us Finns just seem to take it so. < 1277453883 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i did mean locally < 1277454327 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1277454908 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"words are equivalent to millipictures" < 1277454965 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm rewrite something I wrote in C < 1277454973 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to not use if, while, or switch < 1277455549 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about for? < 1277455877 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277456683 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can use for. < 1277456773 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there an actual reason? < 1277456797 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For looks the worse. < 1277456814 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use it for the intended purpose, though. < 1277456875 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/ec6JJYtJ < 1277457121 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1277457258 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1277457806 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277460048 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277460105 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h233.29.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277460105 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1277460121 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h233.29.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277460146 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CakeProphet < 1277460152 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1277460152 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1277460157 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1277460162 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a pretty esoteric language idea: < 1277460168 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a language that is perfect in every way. < 1277460355 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277460418 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have a fetish for paradoCes < 1277460566 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. I merely ponder them. < 1277461377 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not good for you < 1277461450 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1277464052 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am saddened that C doesn't have dynamic or function containing structures. < 1277464128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: http://codu.org/tmp/pianopano3.jpeg <-- loading < 1277464171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, nice pano. Needs more enfusing to reduce noise even mroe < 1277464173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more* < 1277464842 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i bet have more pianos than you < 1277464935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: also i'm thinking about buying a monkey < 1277465889 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1277466211 0 :jix!~jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277466212 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1277466236 0 :jix!~jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277466529 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null < 1277469007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that sounds like slavery! < 1277470900 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277471005 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the canonical behaviour of INTERCAL's mingle operator? < 1277471024 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the LSB of the first or second operand become the LSB of the result? < 1277471028 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: takes two 16-bit arguments and interleaves bits in them to produce a 32-bit result < 1277471035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the LSB of the second operand is the LSB of the result < 1277471042 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, OK. < 1277471079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm curious as to why you asked < 1277471094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that there has to be a reason < 1277471709 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m(p,q) = xp(x^2)+q(x) < 1277471711 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1277471713 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m(p,q) = xp(x^2)+q(x^2) < 1277471904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were the others < 1277472077 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, In the C-INTERCAL manual it has #256~#0 to make 65536, but in other places it has #0~#256 < 1277472114 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/~/$/ < 1277472114 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~? < 1277472124 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1277472126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that mingle < 1277472165 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :256~0 should give you 2*65536 imo < 1277472171 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#0~#256 makes 131072 < 1277472174 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1277472179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#256$#0 makes 131072 < 1277472187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#0$#256 makes 65536 < 1277472190 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1277472191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just checked on intercalc) < 1277472204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, not 132072? < 1277472209 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weererere < 1277472212 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you fail at powers of 2 < 1277472214 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah numbers are hard. < 1277472225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: that sounds like it may be a bug in the manual < 1277472231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which section has the #256$#0? < 1277472233 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so. < 1277472236 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember that one, so yes, but i also failed at arithmetic < 1277472240 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The section on mingle, of course. < 1277472294 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for the bug report, fixed in dev version < 1277472327 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are the select, mingle and unary binary operators universal? < 1277472329 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how should I credit you in the credits? < 1277472336 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, they are < 1277472347 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :select was? < 1277472358 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was googling but for some reason i'm back here < 1277472369 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ? < 1277472379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was select again? < 1277472381 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, just put "Phantom Hoover". < 1277472395 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to compile that into an expression on generating sequences < 1277472400 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err functions < 1277472409 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: sort bits in (first arg AND second arg) using bits of second arg as keys < 1277472416 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hmm < 1277472424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's lots of ways to define it, but that one works in bases other than 2 (using digits rather than bits) < 1277472435 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stably? < 1277472437 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 0b11~0b10 is 1. < 1277472440 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, stable sort < 1277472449 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ascending < 1277472458 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lower keys end up more significant in the result < 1277472468 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ascending < 1277472482 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, depends on whether you look at it as a bigendian or littleendian < 1277472487 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh true sorry < 1277472499 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always do bigendian < 1277472518 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people think about INTERCAL bigendian < 1277472531 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the definition of mingle feels more natural with a bigendian interpretation < 1277472605 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i took the second it takes to understand what select does, and the name makes sense < 1277472613 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i recall hearing the definition at least twice < 1277472627 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so umm < 1277472641 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can't be defined for polynomials < 1277472652 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a simple way that is < 1277472668 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you can't even do and < 1277472713 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generalisation of AND to arbitrary bases in INTERCAL is "if either input is 0, return 0; otherwise, return the larger input" < 1277472743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, but it's the one that's used < 1277472752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a well-known and oft-demonstrated fact that a person whose work is incomprehensible is held in high esteem. For example, if one were to state that the simplest way to store a value of 65536 in a 32-bit INTERCAL < 1277472753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable is: < 1277472753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO :1 <- #0¢#256 < 1277472753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any sensible programmer would say that that was absurd. < 1277472766 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you ask me, there's no reason it should be easy to have that big a constant < 1277472779 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where could you ever need it < 1277472790 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bitmasks? < 1277472793 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you need a bit mask, that's different, but sort of an outdated concept < 1277472795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :large constants come up quite a lot in INTERCAL, for bitmasks < 1277472803 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially #65535$#0 and #0$#65535 < 1277472815 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any sensible compiler will let you use a high level construct that's compiled into a bitmask < 1277472817 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are ironically more readable in the INTERCAL form than they would be as a single constant < 1277472834 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err language < 1277472838 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also compiler < 1277472840 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely #'#0$256'$#0? < 1277472853 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: 6553/5/, not 6553/6/ < 1277472859 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1277472866 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that first # is wrong < 1277472871 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the first hash is unnecessary. < 1277472873 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the answer would overflow anyway the way you wrote it < 1277472877 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And wrong, yes. < 1277472897 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, takes the type of the second operand? < 1277472928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no, select takes the type onespot if the second operand has no more than 16 bits set, twospot otherwise < 1277472947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, that's so screwy that most compilers just ignore it and take the type of the second operand < 1277472959 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that was mingle, not select. < 1277472969 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh, mingle always returns twospot < 1277472979 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why an overflow < 1277472985 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see why. < 1277473088 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then was the third one not where you not adjacent bits < 1277473091 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errr < 1277473092 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is INTERCAL meant to be difficult or different? < 1277473095 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes no sense xD < 1277473101 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but do something to adjacent bits < 1277473119 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: different < 1277473128 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it often ends up difficult as a result, because most of the easy things have been done already < 1277473137 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but whenever I spot an opportunity to do different but easier, Ido < 1277473138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I do < 1277473149 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why no easy 32-bit constants? < 1277473161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes it is just obstructive < 1277473165 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And why decimal, come to think of it? < 1277473177 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL-72 didn't fulfil its mission too well < 1277473221 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not dodecimal or tetradecimal? < 1277473374 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't ask me, I didn't invent INTERCAL-72 < 1277473914 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not yet < 1277473938 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B132BD4.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277474240 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, maybe you can if you invent Feather? < 1277474265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Feather programs can't retroactively change events outside the program < 1277474267 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only their memory of them < 1277474275 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah. < 1277474306 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that's a pretty elegant system. < 1277474688 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1277474697 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's elegant? < 1277474710 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I misunderstood. < 1277474713 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1277474742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"only their memory of them" is not a feature, just a description what would happen < 1277474745 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wlel < 1277474749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*well < 1277474755 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming i'm understanding what's going on < 1277474758 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tend to extrapolate < 1277474799 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yes, just a description < 1277474817 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if I ever get around to writing a Feather standard library, a memory of input is definitely one of the things that would be useful < 1277474840 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i was sure i understood that, i wasn't sure i guessed what happened in Phantom_Hoover's head < 1277474858 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's unsurprising. < 1277475177 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well to be more precise, i'm always sure, i'm not always right < 1277476049 0 :relet!~thomas@c905DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1277477598 0 :random222!~jon@ool-ad03c760.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277477603 0 :random222!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1277477605 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277477892 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1277478453 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@91-115-210-230.adsl.highway.telekom.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1277480350 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277480780 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1277480943 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1277481161 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277481805 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-21-184.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1277482016 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277482230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 (yes I did just notice you but that was because I just got back < 1277482231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1277482790 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: A lot of what appears to be noise in that picture I've verified to be dust on the piano. < 1277482823 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though there is still some noise, yes < 1277483633 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND NOT is universal, isn't it? < 1277483659 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: If you mean NAND, and you mean universal for digital circuits, yes. < 1277483681 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about "AND NOT" - I would interpret that as "x AND NOT y" < 1277483682 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1277483684 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he meant x && !y < 1277483693 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, what Deewiant said. < 1277483699 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, I'm not sure. It could be. < 1277483700 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NAND is !(x && y) < 1277483748 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's universal < 1277483760 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was leaning towards non-universal myself. < 1277483770 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1277483785 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to build NAND out of it, in my head, and failing -- of course, that means very little :) < 1277483801 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I am saddened that C doesn't have dynamic or function containing structures. < 1277483806 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1277483833 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dynamic presumably refers to being able to add or remove entries, which is stupid for C structs. < 1277483846 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not particularly saddened by that -- it means that C doesn't have to deal with garbage collection. < 1277483849 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! can be built but it requires adding a new variable: is that allowed? < 1277483862 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can always put function pointers into structs. < 1277483863 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!x = (y && !x) && !y < 1277483874 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that that actually makes no sense < 1277483877 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEVER MIND < 1277483883 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why doesn't it make sense? < 1277483887 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leaning even more towards non-universal < 1277483891 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, because y is stupid. < 1277483891 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y && !y is false, they don't cancel < 1277483986 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that does make it look bad. < 1277483993 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, are we allowed to use constants? < 1277484010 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!x = 1 && !x, so we can construct NAND. < 1277484056 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!(x && y) = 1 && !(x && !(1 && !y)) < 1277484073 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I was just doing that < 1277484086 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you have to be allowed to be, or you couldn't make ! with nand < 1277484097 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes you could. < 1277484106 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just tie both inputs together. < 1277484110 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, true. < 1277484124 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in any case, constants are reasonable. < 1277484125 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Not sure, then. < 1277484137 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, it seems sensible. < 1277484153 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any circuit being constructed, you will be able to make a wire that is always on. < 1277484223 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always wanted to design a language with boolean operators, but no boolean constants. You'd have to derive true and false with expressions like 'x or x'. < 1277484233 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x && y = x && !(1 && !(y && !0)) was mine, btw < 1277484283 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Do it for the numbers, too < 1277484290 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, such language was also supposed to have a half-dozen different distinct types that were all effectively booleans - "bool", "bit", "truthvalue", etc - but made you do type conversions all over the place to get your expressions right < 1277484315 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "different distinct" is redundant, huh. < 1277484472 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x/x-x/x is a nice way of writing 0 < 1277484472 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION learns the hard way why you should revoke an rss 2 twitter service's access if you stop using it
< 1277484491 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no, it's not < 1277484491 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you tie both inputs together for the and-not gate, you get constant zero, don't you? Then you can invert that < 1277484508 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x=0 breask it.. unless I'm missing somethibng < 1277484518 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I'm going to guess that I'm missing context < 1277484758 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, you're right; I guess it has to be x-x < 1277484779 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1277484829 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you can get rid of the y && < 1277484839 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!0 in your implementation of &&. < 1277484875 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True enough < 1277485247 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's #0$#65535 < 1277485295 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't you use an INTERCAL compiler and find out? < 1277485307 0 :Gregor-P!~AndChat@68-29-69-221.pools.spcsdns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277485331 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, too easy. < 1277485346 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, it's every other bit on. < 1277485355 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Useful for selects. < 1277485552 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sweetness < 1277485566 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're studying Alan Turing in philosophy apparently. < 1277485567 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't ask me why. < 1277485657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: compiler? you could install intercalc and use that < 1277485660 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it comes with CLC-INTERCAL < 1277485694 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured that one is more likely to have an INTERCAL compiler than an INTERCAL programming tool < 1277486448 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, intercalc? < 1277486459 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: an INTERCAL calculator < 1277486466 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, isn't CLC-INTERCAL your competitor? < 1277486478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more my cooperator < 1277486495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Claudio and I are both working on different impls, but we help each other out every now and then < 1277486510 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why isn't there and intercalc for C-INTERCAL? < 1277486517 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to keep both! < 1277486521 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the two programs work completely different ways < 1277486546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use both; you'll find some things work much better in C-INTERCAL, and some work much better in CLC-INTERCAL < 1277486551 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to completely different philosophies < 1277486563 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the differences? < 1277486639 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the philosophies? < 1277486860 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1277486868 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are sets an axiomatic notion in the philosophy of mathematics? < 1277486877 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should both be called C*-INTERCAL, to help prospective programmers choose between them. < 1277486882 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do seem quite fundamental. < 1277486895 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you'll find some things work much better in C*-INTERCAL, and some work much better in C*-INTERCAL" < 1277486914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: CLC-INTERCAL is a very dynamic implementation < 1277486927 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even the compiler used ends up in the resulting bytecode < 1277486928 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but wait, what about C*-INTERCAL? < 1277486940 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I forgot about that one! < 1277486952 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it thinks of inventing commands like ABSTAIN FROM COMPILER BUG which I never even considered < 1277486953 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh. but that one runs on Parrot. fuck that. < 1277486958 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-INTERCAL is a lot more static < 1277486973 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tries to compile things into sane code < 1277486977 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than using an insane bytecode < 1277487000 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a result, the compiled version is often clearer than the original, and it can run programs very fast (after the initial slow compile) < 1277487000 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In low-level terms, I always interpret "static" to more or less mean "lol I don't use pointer hacks internally" < 1277487047 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: so haskell is not static, then :D < 1277487054 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's that unresolved pesky compiler bug that just so happens to be a feature of the language. < 1277487069 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: two such bugs in CLC-INTERCAL < 1277487073 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I would say no, Haskell is not static. I don't know, perhaps there is a distinction between static and static typing. < 1277487104 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would agree that Haskell is not "static" in a sense that I think CakeProphet means. < 1277487116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: well yeah, at least haskellites tend to claim there is when assaulted by dynamic typing advocates :D < 1277487119 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, which bug? < 1277487122 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very vague notion. Akin to a "dynamic language" < 1277487138 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: someone was talking about an ABSTAIN FROM COMPILER BUG thing in one implementation of C-intercal < 1277487158 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "static" in "static typing" is really more like "lexical" or "early" < 1277487158 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me... how on earth does Dynamic work in Haskell? < 1277487171 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah < 1277487175 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a compile-time thing. < 1277487181 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, static. < 1277487211 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thinking about it, it's a horrible word. Like my source source never changes? Well, from the compiler's perspective, maybe. < 1277487218 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha. < 1277487221 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1277487238 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any programs which alter their executable at runtime? < 1277487248 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My "source source" -- that was not meant to be meta. It's just that my brain is going. < 1277487272 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Self-modifying binary code? I'm sure. < 1277487273 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so with things like type inference nowadays, is there even a benefit to dynamic typing? The only benefit I can see is that your runtime system might be more extensible. < 1277487290 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes, there is. Meeting deadlines. < 1277487295 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha. < 1277487304 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm serious - there's a reason Python and Ruby are so popular in web development. < 1277487305 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it's been done, it normally isn't very useful < 1277487309 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. I find debugging to be an issue in dynamic typed languages. < 1277487316 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but it's true. they have fast development time. < 1277487318 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did it once trying to write a .COM file entirely in printable ASCII < 1277487332 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it turns out that none of the flow-control commands in x86 machine code correspond to printable characters < 1277487340 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I had to do a bit of selfmod to insert a loop < 1277487366 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277487367 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is ridiculous. There's been very few semantically incorrect programs that I've written in Haskell that would compile. < 1277487376 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it... knows. < 1277487385 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1277487392 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Proponents of dynamic languages usually say things like, well, who needs static typing when we have unit tests? And I can see that point, but I think it's a bit weak. < 1277487393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Dynamic does unsafe typecasting under the hood, making it safe by using a Typerep value (from the type's Typeable instance) to check whether the original value actually comes from the type cast to < 1277487415 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: bleh. unit tests are probably more work than maintaing type signatures. < 1277487416 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can Haskell fix the issue where I deleted all of my tweets, EXCEPT the ones I wanted deleted? < 1277487423 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Testing and typing are kinda tangential. < 1277487448 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmmm, right. I believe this is more or less what Python does, except the vocabulary is a bit different. < 1277487453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Dynamic = Typerep -> Obj -> Dynamic < 1277487456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One can (and may well want to) do unit testing on Haskell, after all. < 1277487459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah < 1277487460 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh. you meant Haskell. :P < 1277487481 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typing is an incomplete form of unit testing via set inclusion proofs :) < 1277487490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: that's what you asked :) < 1277487497 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: would the inclusion of constraints make it more complete? I've been thinking about constraint-based type systems. < 1277487510 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right. :D < 1277487530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1277487541 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277487560 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes, constraints are attractive. Dependent types and all that. < 1277487560 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue how to fit unit testing into my project :/ < 1277487585 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like... there are compile errors you could catch via constraints that you wouldn't otherwise catch. Consider having a function that returns type (Int x. x > 0) and apply the value to a function that accepts (Int x. x < 0) < 1277487585 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, so we don't like Lisp? < 1277487603 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there intersection is the empty set, you can infer that they are incompatible types. < 1277487612 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*their < 1277487622 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: lisp is fine. < 1277487639 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses dynamic typing, doesn't it? < 1277487647 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or are you talking about weak typing? < 1277487651 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't quite understand dependent types. Only the notion of their first-classness, but not how they work in practice. < 1277487658 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: dynamic typing vs static typing. < 1277487687 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover_: just comparing really. You could argue that a lot of Lisp's flexibility stems from its "type system" < 1277487687 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, how are we defining "dynamic typing"? < 1277487695 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem as I see it "in the field" is that any program, once written, grows, and any large program has huge "maintenance momentum." W/static typing, if you want to change something, you might need to change a type, or God forbid, a monad, and the repercussions might ripple throughout your codebase. Having latent types means it's basically easier to hack, which in production is, sadly, invaluable. < 1277487705 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :types aren't known at compile time. Variable aren't given type constraints. < 1277487722 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's how Lisp does things, though/ < 1277487732 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: right. duck typing is a benefit there. It's very easy to throw in arbitrary objects in place of the original. < 1277487742 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as for unit testing. < 1277487756 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: um, i meant data Dynamic = Dynamic Typerep Obj. i'm confused by hugs not giving the actual definition for data types, just the constructor types < 1277487758 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I can't say I really get them either. But basically, types are proofs that your value is always in some set, like integers. Dependent typing makes the sets more sophisticated, like prime numbers. < 1277487781 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmmm, weird. I didn't even know Hugs had a command like that. Does GHC do that? < 1277487813 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmmm, ah okay. So you could potentially compute their values with code that runs at compile-time? < 1277487823 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a type representing only prime numbers. < 1277487835 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Phantom_Hoover < 1277487856 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, well, compute is a bad word. specify. declare. < 1277487862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i think so. let's see. < 1277487867 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with constraints or whatever. < 1277487868 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The thing with static typing is that *when you change a type*, you actually have to take care of the repercussions. < 1277487872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :i Data.Dynamic.Dynamic < 1277487882 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Data.Dynamic.Dynamic < 1277487890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: With dynamic typing, you change a type *and your first notion that something is handling it wrong* is a program crash. < 1277487901 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Basically yes. Of course the drawback is that you can build types that have all the weaknesses of programs. Or C++ templates. < 1277487942 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Which is why you probably shouldn't use dynamic typing for air traffic control systems. < 1277487944 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ah. Hmmm, so what does no type safety imply? For example, if Haskell included undecidable type system elements how would that affect the whole system? < 1277487957 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: it delivered the rest in DCC. (also ghci gave less information than hugs) < 1277487958 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fewer posible compile errors? < 1277487990 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I find that ~90% of bugs in Haskell are caught by the type checker. < 1277487995 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1277488001 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think the major Haskell compilers should include features like @instances from lambdabot. I actually use #haskell when developing Haskell for that very reason. < 1277488013 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: GHCi does. < 1277488014 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell :i Data.Dynamic.Dynamic < 1277488016 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Data.Dynamic.Dynamic < 1277488018 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: :i _does_ give instances < 1277488023 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1277488027 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well.. hmmm. < 1277488029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only those already imported, though < 1277488030 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So do I. Are you trying to make an argument "for" static typing? < 1277488032 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I've never used i then. :P < 1277488043 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Minor argument in favor. < 1277488054 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, of course, dynamic typing does have its own benefits. < 1277488062 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see arguments either way really. The more experience I've accumulated with both the more I've concluded that both have benefits. < 1277488079 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm interested in learning about dependent types though. What is a good language for that? < 1277488098 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is interested in language type systems, and would possibly be interested in researching them via language designs.
< 1277488098 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granting you certain kinds of flexibility in exchange for fewer correctness guarantees. < 1277488138 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you could argue that things like typeclasses give you similar flexibility in an "environment of good design". :P < 1277488143 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: ehird kept mentioning Agda. I think it's fairly standard for dependent type stuff. < 1277488151 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Indeed. < 1277488157 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'll check it out then. < 1277488168 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really really want dynamic typing in Haskell, there *is* Data.Dynamic. < 1277488170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:D < 1277488182 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I'm just wondering when you would ever need dynamic typing. < 1277488187 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamic dispatch maybe? < 1277488195 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language interpreters? < 1277488203 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strictly *need* it? < 1277488206 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1277488206 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never ever ever. < 1277488208 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no other alternative. < 1277488215 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never ever ever. < 1277488221 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, then why? Just to have? < 1277488225 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you are TC without dynamic types. < 1277488226 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1277488239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, you are TC without *multiple types*. < 1277488247 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you are TC with Brainfuck, but you don't write anything serious in it. < 1277488256 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All type systems exist to make programming easier, not to make it possible. < 1277488262 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Indeed. < 1277488269 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... so if I wanted to use Haskell to make a dynamic environment with its own scripting language (like the MOO codebase for text-based games, where you can dynamically add command scripts to arbitrary objects) I would potentially be interested in Dynamic? < 1277488288 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is a quite reasonable use-case for Data.Dynamic. < 1277488313 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now... would it be craz to add concurrency to this model? < 1277488315 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you use algebraic data types for quasi-dynamicness? < 1277488320 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I might use Haskell to implement my MUD codebase. :) < 1277488328 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of Erlang. < 1277488334 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I haven't Haskelled in ages, so I don't know) < 1277488351 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: sort of. You can use existentials to get heterogenous container types and such. < 1277488357 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using typeclass constraints. < 1277488369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yes. < 1277488373 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a certain degree of dynamic typing with static type safety. < 1277488380 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you were scripting, you wouldn't need completely dynamic typing. < 1277488386 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Not particularly. Haskell has decent concurrency libraries. < 1277488395 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd just need some general object which can be used in-script. < 1277488395 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just doesn't have support for running on multiple systems. < 1277488405 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: is STM the way to go or is there message-pasing libraries? < 1277488406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i think it is more recommended to make typeclasses for the things you actually need to do with several types, and possibly use existential data types if you really _need_ to pass around such a value without knowing its type < 1277488421 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right. < 1277488421 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: There are message-passing libraries. < 1277488429 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Know any by name? < 1277488434 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't. < 1277488435 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any in std lib even? < 1277488436 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1277488440 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well nevermind then. < 1277488443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could probably write one up in a few hours though. < 1277488445 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1277488450 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've implemented my latest esolang in -- get this -- Java, but only because it's got a graphical aspect, and JRE is the only platform that I've found that can display graphics portably without too much pain. < 1277488464 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything else is like, ew. < 1277488467 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly. < 1277488470 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking along the lines of data scriptValue = ScriptInt Int | ScriptChar Char < 1277488476 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that might be totally crazy. < 1277488477 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm.. Haskell threads are soft right? How lightweight are they compared to Erlang? < 1277488485 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Comparable. < 1277488488 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excellent. < 1277488516 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different implementation details, but *essentially* the same. Feel free to spawn billions. < 1277488530 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously no code hotswapping, but I think I can get around that. There's an old-as-fuck C codebase that implements effective hot swapping. I'm not entirely sure how it works though. < 1277488539 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it basically restarts the codebase... but somehow maintains all state. < 1277488547 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No, that's fairly reasonable. < 1277488547 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including socket connections. Not sure how that works. < 1277488562 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yay, I had a reasonable idea! < 1277488571 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I need to aspire for a good one! < 1277488577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: It forks into the new code. < 1277488579 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/for/to/ < 1277488588 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And passes the old state on the CLI. < 1277488590 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hmmm? I'm new to this kind of stuff, apparently. Can you explain further? < 1277488596 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Control.Concurrent.Chan comes to mind < 1277488613 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The socket connections just go to the new process directly, because file descriptors are carried across forks. < 1277488622 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yeah. Control.Concurrent.Chan was it. < 1277488652 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm okay... < 1277488668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, Haskell's most common concurrency primative, mvar, can be considered the building block of message passing. < 1277488678 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically a message passing queue of size 1. < 1277488683 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would be the benefits of STM over message-passing or vice versa? If they're suited to specific things then I could always use both. < 1277488707 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ah. How would you construct a queue of greater size? < 1277488722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STM is more useful for actually modifying shared state. < 1277488760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Minorly complex, and I don't recall the details. < 1277488775 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-nod- I'll research it with time I'm sure. < 1277488795 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha. I think I've sold myself on Haskell as my language of choice for this project. :) < 1277488841 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Control.Concurrent.Chan has done the work of constructing a queue of greater size for you. i'm pretty sure it's based on MVar under the hood < 1277488850 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is. < 1277488863 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay. < 1277488880 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's STM for IO right, thus allowing me to mix both in the same code yes? < 1277488902 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. However, one can return an IO value from STM. < 1277488914 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay. < 1277488932 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: there's no way to undo a real IO action, so STM cannot directly help with that :| < 1277488932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you can compute your IO value and non-atomically execute it. :P < 1277488949 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right. Because STM relies on overloading the monad operatings. You can merely dump it into IO as read/writes implicitly like that. < 1277488957 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*operators < 1277488959 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*can't < 1277488960 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh < 1277488976 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's where I start to dislike Haskell. It's great for executable semantics... but for writing networked, concurrent programs... ehhh. But maybe I just haven't given it a chance. < 1277488995 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Concurrency is one thing it does very, very well. < 1277489029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*an < 1277489033 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I don't see concurrency as being an issue < 1277489043 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it will be quite similar if not easier than writing an equivalent Erlang program. < 1277489056 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comparable, at least. < 1277489061 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With Control.Concurrent.Chan, it is *effectively* the same. < 1277489065 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1277489084 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though not strictly dynamic. < 1277489097 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless, of course, you use Dynamic. :) < 1277489100 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277489115 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, you also have threading primitives, locks, STM, and some actual *parallelism* primitives to work with. < 1277489127 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're presumably using Dynamic to perform implementee-side dynamicness? < 1277489182 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1277489183 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you pattern-match-receive with C.C.C? < 1277489195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1277489202 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it would just be a case expression. < 1277489214 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if no cases match? < 1277489223 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, I don't recall the exact semantics. < 1277489237 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you do functions? < 1277489241 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :patternMatchGoesHere <- readChan yourChannelHere < 1277489248 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you even define runtime functions in Haskell? < 1277489252 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277489255 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean. Are you asking how one does functions in Haskell? All the time. :P < 1277489263 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(readChan is in IO) < 1277489269 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean for the implementee. < 1277489281 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I don't believe so. I don't think it will be necessary though. < 1277489302 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: If you're from within do notation, then you get an failed pattern match error. Otherwise, depends on what you wrote for the case statement. < 1277489312 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure I understand the question. -_- < 1277489313 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Small difference would be, I think, that Erlang leaves any messages in the queue if there's no match. There was some design reason for that (not sure what atm.) I'm sure you could emulate it somehow with C.C.C., but it might be a bit roundabout < 1277489316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/an/a/ < 1277489326 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you do functions for the language being implemented? < 1277489336 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you could, but I'll just incorporate the semantic change. Make sure every message is handled. < 1277489384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Data.Dynamic; dynlist = [toDyn (3::Int), toDyn ("hi"::String)]; main = print (map fromDynamic dynList :: [Maybe String]) < 1277489385 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ah. you're asking about interpreter design. You could have Haskell objects to represent executable script code, possibly pre-process/compiled to a bytecode of some kind, and then simply interpret it. < 1277489395 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea for Erlang is to have multiple queues being read from a single process or *something*... < 1277489402 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Data.Dynamic; dynList = [toDyn (3::Int), toDyn ("hi"::String)]; main = print (map fromDynamic dynList :: [Maybe String]) < 1277489405 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Nothing,Just "hi"] < 1277489408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas with C.C.C., you tee the channel for the multiple readers. < 1277489462 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you would need a) a general way to execute script code b) an interface to the primitive Haskell objects being manipulated. < 1277489545 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the obvious way to do basic things like addition and I/O is to have a Haskell function do it. < 1277489589 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it would be nice if you could have user-defined functions as Haskell ones. < 1277489590 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are different approaches. I've seen scheme interpreters that implement dynamic typing through Haskell allowing multiple type constructors for a single type. data SchemeVal = Number DoubleVal | StringVal String | ListVal [SchemeVal] | PrimitiveFunc (...) | SchemeFunc (...) | ... < 1277489596 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1277489609 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interpret (AddCommand a b) = (IntResult (a + b)) < 1277489618 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, rather < 1277489622 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have an interpret function. < 1277489643 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(AddCommand (IntVal a) (IntVal b)) = (IntVal (a + b)) < 1277489647 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well. if I do make a scripting language. It will be a /language/. That generally includes procedure abstraction. :D < 1277489686 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it will be very simple. The idea is to be easy to write. < 1277489698 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1277489699 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something along the lines of interpret :: SchemeFunc -> [SchemeVal] -> SchemeVal < 1277489699 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Embed lua! < 1277489702 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1277489707 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy for C, not so much for Haskell. < 1277489707 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: well, not quite < 1277489715 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you have to remember SchemeFunc is not a type but a constructor < 1277489718 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only type defined is SchemeVal < 1277489719 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, perhaps. < 1277489722 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i see Chan as an unGetChan function which you could presumably use to put the value back if the case doesn't match < 1277489723 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is where the dynamic typing comes in. < 1277489724 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Haskell can link against C, so bamf. < 1277489727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*has < 1277489736 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, make SchemeFunc part of SchemeVal. < 1277489745 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: right, it was in my example. < 1277489797 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yep. < 1277489806 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I missed that, sorry. < 1277489808 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: so that's where dynamic type checking comes in. The interpret function would ask "is this a scheme function? okay then I should run it. Is it a primitive function? I should delegate to the internal Haskell function? Is it anything else? Then this is a runtime error". < 1277489819 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1277489834 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that isn't really dynamic, is it? < 1277489847 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more pattern matching on algebraic data types. < 1277489856 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: have you read Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs? There's a whole chapter in which they write a scheme interpreter in scheme. Gives you a good idea of how the basic design for an interpreter works. < 1277489856 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they both do the same thing. < 1277489866 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I have not. < 1277489873 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it's not dynamic in Haskell no. But your Scheme language that you create will have dynamic typing, yes. < 1277489881 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1277489889 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, is it Scheme-based? < 1277489910 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there could be two meaning of "dynamic" floating around now, too :) < 1277489936 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am talking about Haskell-side dynamicity. < 1277489949 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet is talking about Scheme-side. < 1277489966 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1277489971 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, Scheme doesn't let you define your own types, does it? < 1277489981 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only way to do dynamic typing in Haskell is with Dynamic. Which I don't understand completely yet. < 1277489997 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: hmmm, not sure about Scheme. I know CLisp does but not scheme. < 1277490012 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme itself does not. < 1277490022 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there goes that problem < 1277490037 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... yes. finite number of types = easy runtime type checking. :) < 1277490038 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much of Scheme is being implemented? < 1277490046 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of it? < 1277490065 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-shrug- none. I don't even plan on using Scheme. Scheme is always a good example to start with for language design though. It's the first steps. :) < 1277490092 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1277490111 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was terrified that continuations might turn up. < 1277490114 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION had awful visions of MUD-programming-meets-EMACS
< 1277490120 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html very good book. It's all in Scheme. I read this book when I first started learning programming, and it helped a lot. < 1277490145 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's not to say I won't consider /a/ Lisp as a scripting lang. < 1277490161 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the moment I am designing no scripting language. I want a working Haskell codebase and then I will decide from there. < 1277490207 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Codebase for what? < 1277490212 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUD server. < 1277490241 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"codebase" is the idiomatic term in MUD communities for a paticular server implementation. They don't use the word "server" to describe games. < 1277490250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: btw there are things you can do with existential types that you cannot do with Dynamic. for example you cannot find the Show instance for a value of unknown type in Dynamic even it has one (Dynamic only allows you to extract known types, essentially) < 1277490271 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah. I see. < 1277490287 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that makes sense. If the type is not known how can you find the proper instance? < 1277490300 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1277490338 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would probably use typeclasses in a "complete" Lisp implementation. < 1277490351 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for heterogenous containers I would use an existential. < 1277490592 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a MUD though I would seriously consider creating a custom language though. Probably based on tables like Lua. < 1277490618 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only natural for a MUD... you're essentially just manipulating big tables of associated data. < 1277490779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1277490976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, erlang? < 1277490982 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what about it? < 1277490994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I thought you were doing your MUD in it < 1277491003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* cpressey had awful visions of MUD-programming-meets-EMACS <-- sounds awesome < 1277491012 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I haven't started yet. Still in planning, so the possibility of a different language still exists. < 1277491031 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and yeah, I agree. A lisp scripter would be pretty swanky. < 1277491064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, you could do erlang scripting in erlang though. Anyway if you want to parse with yacc and such erlang has yecc < 1277491071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is yacc for erlang < 1277491081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, might be worth considering < 1277491102 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, maybe. Scripting is really a later concern. < 1277491148 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Haskell would have real benefits in this kind of project. < 1277491154 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of strong points. < 1277491184 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would be fun. I've yet to put anything complex in a Haskell program. :) < 1277491214 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I implemented Dawkins' weasel in Haskell once. < 1277491228 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It had options and everything. < 1277491272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, you haven't done anything complex in erlang either! ;P < 1277491293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and erlang has a lot of strong points for this < 1277491333 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's also true. < 1277491371 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... I vastly prefer Haskell to Erlang, based on my study of their libraries and semantics. < 1277491387 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think most of Erlang's strong-points are available in Haskell as well. < 1277491394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, Dawkins' weasel? < 1277491394 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some are different, yes. < 1277491411 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Parsec is significantly better than Yacc. < 1277491419 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, weasel program? < 1277491419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, probably < 1277491427 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, in fact, lightyears beyond the competition. < 1277491427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, concurrency would be harder in haskell as far as I understood? < 1277491432 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It evolves a string towards another < 1277491435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I have no idea what it is, thus I'm asking < 1277491440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277491450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Haskell concurrency is *easy*. < 1277491472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, isn't it mostly parallel computation, rather than message passing < 1277491473 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's called a weasel program because the original string was "METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL" < 1277491480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, making it good for very very different things < 1277491491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, number crunching rather than server/client < 1277491492 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's Haskell parallelism. < 1277491517 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell has messaging passing and parallelism < 1277491517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and reloading code on the fly? < 1277491521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about that bit? < 1277491522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell concurrency has message passing, (fairly normal) threading, and software transactional memory. < 1277491527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be _very_ useful in a MUD < 1277491530 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1277491536 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's not concurrency. < 1277491539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, true < 1277491543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, did I claim it was? < 1277491546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no I didn't < 1277491550 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You seemed to be. < 1277491554 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think hot swapping can be achieved by other means. There are codebases in C that do it, so I think I can just do what they do. < 1277491555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm just asking if haskell have it < 1277491561 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What about concurrency? And reloading code on the fly?"⇧ < 1277491570 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The extensional definition of function equality, discussed above, is commonly used in mathematics. Sometimes additional information is attached to a function, such as an explicit codomain, in which case two functions must not only agree on all values, but must also have the same codomain, in order to be equal. < 1277491572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes seems clear to me, < 1277491577 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, question about this wp paragraph. < 1277491581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, in C you do dlopen() and such stuff. It isn't easy though < 1277491587 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hot swapping code is rather *annoying* to do in Haskell. < 1277491593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, and swapping the core program is hard < 1277491593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible, but a pain. < 1277491605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, see that is a good reason for CakeProphet to use erlang < 1277491612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it will be very useful in a MUD < 1277491615 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if two functions agrees on all values, wouldn't they have the same codomain. < 1277491634 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two statements seem redundant because they overlap. < 1277491646 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The simplest way is to pass the state as a command line argument when fork/exec'ing. < 1277491648 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I misunderstand codomain. < 1277491671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that could be larger than the cmdline length limit < 1277491671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And relying on how file descriptors will go across that. < 1277491682 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: if I recall that's essentially what the C server do. They save state to a file of some kind and then load it via command line argument. < 1277491697 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you can save the state to a tmp file. < 1277491702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that works < 1277491722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, though, this is a feature very peculiar to Erlang. < 1277491729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, that is not free from interruptions. And depending on how large your state is it could take some time < 1277491731 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any hot swapping is something that can be implemented to a degree and I'm not terribly concerned with it. < 1277491733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allowed by its VM. < 1277491737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed < 1277491741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about jvm? < 1277491746 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in any case < 1277491752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't it allow that too? < 1277491754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JVM doesn't allow for it, though it would be a fairly simple addition. < 1277491762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, .NET? < 1277491768 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1277491773 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think dynamic typing is why hotswapping is easy for Erlang. < 1277491784 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've implemented "degrees" of hot-swappability in Python code before. < 1277491790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway there are other ways to do it in C: mprotect() and loading new code then jumping to it < 1277491799 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1277491803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need some code elsewhere to do that of course < 1277491808 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, not portable. < 1277491810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would be quite painful and brittle < 1277491812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I know < 1277491825 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still not entirely sure which I want to use. I'm considering. < 1277491836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, python has some issues with reloading code. I tried. < 1277491842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, buggy results sometimes < 1277491843 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you'd need to put a compiler into your program to make the swapping usable. < 1277491857 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I've certainly looked into Erlang. I've actually research just about every library I would be using to my advantage in Erlang. I intend to do the same for Haskell and then determine which I'd prefer. < 1277491860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can hotswap .so's if you're really into that sort of thing. < 1277491863 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And any swappable functions would have to be copied from .text < 1277491865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it could compile the code first then hot swap the object files into the program < 1277491881 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence it needs a compiler somewher.e < 1277491888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, no < 1277491892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it needs a _linker_ < 1277491896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a compiler < 1277491910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very very different < 1277491916 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the swapped code would be created at compile-time? < 1277491927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1277491933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could compile new object files < 1277491949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then load them into your program, jump to the new ones, unload the old < 1277491968 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you need a compiler to compile the new object files. < 1277491971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, depending on details you need either a dynamic linker or a linker < 1277491983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yes but it wouldn't be inside your program < 1277491985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is my point < 1277492028 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, you'd need a compiler somewhere, and the resulting code would be pretty non-portable. < 1277492049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yes it would rely on linux allowing mprotect() on non-mmaped pages < 1277492062 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think STM would be potentially worth using Haskell. < 1277492070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, STM? < 1277492073 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And knowing the object format. And knowing where the compiler is kept. < 1277492079 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can (IIRC) have a POSIX shared memory segment that'll survive an exec() call; you can use that to pass as much state as you want (within reasonable limits). < 1277492083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, or you could just use a wrapper binary that loads *.so with all the code except what is needed to hotswap < 1277492096 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Software Transactional Memory. It is a method of manipulating shared state in Haskell. Of course, I can combine it with message passing as well. < 1277492098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 2 GB? probably not ;P < 1277492122 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use serialization-to-a-file for that, but... < 1277492147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, does haskell allow you to do symbolic debugging at runtime? < 1277492161 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... dunno. < 1277492191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, like, you can just attach a debugger and inspect variables and so on. Possibly just dumping complete state without pausing the thread < 1277492197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang allows that just fine < 1277492208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind boggles: not only was WINE ported to Windows, it also turns out that DosBox was ported to DOS < 1277492224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why would wine be ported to windows < 1277492237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and dosbox is basically eval() on DOS? < 1277492239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: some Windows programs actually run better under WINE than they do native < 1277492247 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? < 1277492247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait, dosbox isn't the one using vm86() is it? < 1277492253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is dosemu that does that? < 1277492255 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, DosBox still emulates, whether on DOS or not < 1277492271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which windows programs? < 1277492277 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure offhand < 1277492280 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, why the brackets in vm86()? < 1277492292 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1277492304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, parentheses you mean? < 1277492315 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1277492317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and it is because it is a syscall on linux that I refer to < 1277492332 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, hence the "ah". < 1277492338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see < 1277492356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did you ask then? Or did you check man pages in between? < 1277492386 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1277492500 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1277493947 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone have experience with debuggers in Haskell? < 1277493989 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHCi probably has something. < 1277494079 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha. to #haskell ! < 1277494537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Surstroemmngsklaemma.png <-- yes it is traditionally eaten with milk. No idea why. And no idea why it is eaten at all either. < 1277494550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is basically sour fermented fish < 1277494556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, wrong channel < 1277494557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1277494699 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What on earth is that? < 1277494707 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surströmming < 1277494743 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MMMMmmmmm. < 1277494796 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the bit on the left is, anyway < 1277494810 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"These bacteria produce carbon dioxide and a number of compounds that account for the unique odour: pungent (propionic acid), rotten-egg (hydrogen sulfide), rancid-butter (butyric acid), and vinegary (acetic acid)." < 1277494816 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other bits appear to be potato, onion, and bread < 1277494820 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a glass of milk < 1277494840 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rotten egg AND rancid butter, together at last. < 1277494858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, a local speciality in some parts of north Sweden < 1277494865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, luckily I don't live there < 1277494888 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Just smells resembling them < 1277494892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the bread is tunnbröd < 1277494899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it is local to Sweden? < 1277494906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tunnbröd is very tastey though < 1277494911 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not lefse? < 1277494911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soft very thin bread < 1277494917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tunnbröd means "thin bread" < 1277494922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wtf is "lefse"? < 1277494930 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe I'm confusing with Norway < 1277494940 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I am < 1277494943 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fi:rieska anyway < 1277494975 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, well you can't have evrything I suppose. < 1277494977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnbr%C3%B6d <-- well on that image I only tried the left version < 1277494982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea about the one on right < 1277495013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait actually, I might have tried it once < 1277495016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so it was very good < 1277495025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was ages ago I had some strange sort of tunnbröd < 1277495037 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The English term is flatbread < 1277495057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not the same though < 1277495059 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the variants are different enough that I suppose they're all correct (as names) in any language < 1277495078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, English flatbread tastes quite differently iirc < 1277495080 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flatbread is the all-encompassing term < 1277495086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1277495121 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, i dont think english cuisine has its own flatbread. < 1277495146 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll leave informing about that to the English < 1277495158 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tortillas, bannock... < 1277495185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1277495262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway all parts except the fish in that image are eatable (though not very well together). The fish is claimed by some to be eatable but I strongly disagree from the smell. Never tasted it < 1277495283 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're edible enough together — minus the fish, like you say < 1277495332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't like potato on bread, but maybe that is just me < 1277495344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :garlic on bread I like. But definitely not on tunnbröd < 1277495354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tunnbröd has a rather special taste in itself < 1277495365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah that is onions not garlic < 1277495378 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't particularly like garlic < 1277495389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I _love_ garlic. < 1277495421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sometimes during late evenings I take pressed garlic on buttered hot bread. < 1277495434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be hot enough that the butter melts < 1277495440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so heat the bread in the oven < 1277495444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply butter < 1277495452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then quickly into the oven again for about half a minute < 1277495472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then take it out, use the garlic pressed and yum < 1277495513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is an oven superior to a toaster? < 1277495526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well less burnt when you heat it a lot < 1277495532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is the main reason < 1277495537 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know a combination IRC client and IM client? < 1277495545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, they all suck < 1277495547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for irc < 1277495548 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :key stipulation: a good one < 1277495549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or for im < 1277495561 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... okay. So I guess I'll just stick to seperate clients. < 1277495561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, pidgin can do it but it sucks for irc < 1277495566 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can just heat it for a short time, I find it hot enough < 1277495571 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah, I've noticed. pidgin is my current IM client < 1277495592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, nah then you aren't using proper butter. As in pure butter, not butter mixed up with stuff to make it easier to put on bread < 1277495595 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on the bread type, though < 1277495604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah depends on bread type a lot < 1277495627 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's butter like that? I thought there's only pure butter and margarine < 1277495631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm going to eat some "fenugreek" flavoured cheese. This might not be correct. It is from interwiki on "bockhornsklöver" in Swedish < 1277495645 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Finland count as part of Scandinavia? < 1277495669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, either that or Nordic that it isn't part of. Never remember which < 1277495671 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on whether you define Scandinavia as including Finland < 1277495683 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, well. < 1277495699 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know... I sincerely believe there is a better way to organize desktop environments / UIs < 1277495714 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, an inordinate number of people here are from Scandinavia \/ Finland. < 1277495716 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than the current standard. < 1277495728 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That was meant to be a union operator) < 1277495733 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh: "[Finland] has shifted from being a province in the Swedish Empire to an autonomous unit in 'Eastern' Europe, then to an independent state in 'Northern' Europe or 'Scandinavia'. After joining the European Union, Finland has recently been included in 'Western Europe'." < 1277495736 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, what's the current standard? < 1277495745 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta love political terminology < 1277495938 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1277496034 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: All of that seems like arbitrary definitions. < 1277496045 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No shit? < 1277496437 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the "Western Europe" definition implies a particular state of development. < 1277496509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than, as its name implies, a particular geographic region < 1277496746 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Western Europe" = snooty Europe < 1277496761 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Eastern Europe" = poor Europe < 1277497116 0 :cheater109!~cheater@ip-80-226-21-184.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1277497322 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1277497484 0 :cheater109!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277497501 0 :cheater109!~cheater@ip-80-226-21-184.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1277497549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the "province in the Swedish Empire" I believe was arbitrary at a sword point though. < 1277497552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1277497598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As was that "autonomous unit in 'Eastern' Europe" < 1277498060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no that was more likely at a gunpoint < 1277498073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1277498095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or pistolpoint < 1277498107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm actually I guess the Swedish one would have been that too < 1277498114 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277498215 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that was really more swordpoint < 1277498268 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or crosspoint (crusades and all that) < 1277498295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I thought it was a bit later than that hm < 1277498306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but probably you are right < 1277498313 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_N%C3%B6teborg < 1277498533 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe more relevantly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Swedish_Crusade < 1277498553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gn < 1277498560 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm* < 1277498565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1277498573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't notice it myself < 1277498576 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-88-22.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1277498849 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, virtualbox's shared folders are so much worse than vmware's. < 1277499060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I don't use them. However it is a lot nicer in many other aspects < 1277499078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway the shared folders work don't they? < 1277499085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I fail to see what more they could do < 1277499097 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They /barely/ work. < 1277499102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ? < 1277499110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I tend to use nfs or samba anyway < 1277499142 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been waiting for 5 minutes for my virtualenv to come back up after killing it. All it's doing is writing a couple of files to the shared folder. < 1277499174 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, writing a file to a shared folder sometimes collides with its own lock. I have no idea what's going on there. < 1277499222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I used them very rarely but when I did they worked perfectly < 1277499227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, linux host and windows guest < 1277499244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows xp 64bit, linux 2.6.x 64-bit < 1277499245 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, well. Swap those and see what happens :) < 1277499247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be specific < 1277499253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, no clue at all about that < 1277499278 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still better than VMWare periodically forgetting what a NIC is. < 1277499288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh it does that? < 1277499296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway you could use samba to share the files < 1277499371 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better than dealing with VMware's *horrible* UIs. < 1277499381 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does that with Turnkey Linux, about once a month. No idea how to get it back, have to start over from a backup image basically. < 1277499462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, turn key linux? < 1277499468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, never heard of that distro < 1277499485 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about ais523's comments on DOSBox-in-DOS and WINE-in-Windows... I actually think that would be a good property for an OS to have inherently. < 1277499498 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's nothing special. < 1277499502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how do you mean < 1277499517 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, sandboxing, basically. < 1277499524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, like jails on *bsd? < 1277499529 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in the style of "Scheme-interpreter-written-in-Scheme" :) < 1277499529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, freebsd at least < 1277499539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah not like jails I guess < 1277499558 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Metacircular jail sandbox bootstrap! < 1277499569 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, still working on that MUD? < 1277499574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so nothing like freebsd jails or such < 1277499584 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, FreeBSD cheats ;) < 1277499593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well yes but it works rather well < 1277499597 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plash cheats too < 1277499604 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pfah works < 1277499609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes but in quite a different way < 1277499612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pfah? < 1277499620 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ffs", as you would say. < 1277499623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277499654 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, would CPU emulation be needeD? < 1277499655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "ffs works" still makes no sense there < 1277499658 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, "Pfah! 'Works'!" < 1277499663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277499678 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Need to do it on a LISP machine for full effect, and in that case, no :) < 1277499696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you thinks it works badly? Or "works is not enough here"? < 1277499699 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish Lisp machines were still around. < 1277499711 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone thinks they were so good... < 1277499736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should he haskell machines < 1277499759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that doesn't work as well as a concept I think. Maybe < 1277499766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang machines sound more reasonable < 1277499768 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, "Who cares about 'works'? This is purity of design we're talking about here." Of course, in the recent context of a complaint that virtualbox is taking ages, I suppose this is somewhat hypocritical. < 1277499772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has more of the "closed system" feeling < 1277499787 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Was it you who told me about the ECOMP chip? < 1277499796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, probably not. What is ECOMP < 1277499808 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ECOMP is Erlang-in-hardware. < 1277499813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, link? < 1277499835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, google gives me useless stuff < 1277499836 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes. Sort of. Doing schoolwork right now but I'll always be working on it. :) < 1277499844 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.erlang.org/euc/00/processor.ppt (warning: powerpoint) < 1277499863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ah googling that url gives me "show as html" :) < 1277499884 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, this is where I learned about it: http://prog21.dadgum.com/64.html < 1277500051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what? ETS in hardware!? < 1277500069 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1277500075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hm < 1277500093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well since a summer project of mine is befunge93 in VHDL... < 1277500125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I shouldn't be surprised < 1277500174 0 :Tessste!~textetete@189.83.9.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277500251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I guess nothing became of ECOMP though? < 1277500282 0 :Tessste!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1277500310 0 :cheater109!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277500473 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, it was experimental. < 1277500486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1277500511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, they could have published the VHDL code at that point to let people have some fun < 1277500633 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1277500686 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Are you this same [your real name here] that has once written to the supertux-devel list about a yeti?-) < 1277500922 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-21-184.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1277500925 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello sweeties < 1277500961 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277502425 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the language called where the only valid program is an empty file? < 1277502426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Are you this same [your real name here] that has once written to the supertux-devel list about a yeti?-) <-- I don't think I wrote that. But I was/still am a supertux developer < 1277502430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowdays inactive < 1277502447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I probably edited that level at some point < 1277502458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame stupid level editor if my name is listed as author < 1277502499 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about that; I just saw the email list posting in google. < 1277502508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, huh, how comes you saw that < 1277502530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I mean you googled me or what? < 1277502642 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I googled the level name. < 1277502662 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "a" level name. < 1277502676 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to know if the game was supposed to continue from that final-battle-like yeti thing. < 1277502808 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: reboot < 1277502977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes it is < 1277502996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well in svn at least < 1277503004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not sure which release you are playing < 1277503177 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277503241 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Snarkiness tolerated and encouraged | Well, except for that | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1277503331 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I fixed the topic message, why was there ] at the end before? < 1277503462 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1277503504 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says 0.3.3-2 in the package version field; I just grabbed what was in Ubuntu lucid. < 1277503507 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The only thing I changed is removing ] at the end) < 1277503561 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.127.235 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277503574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good evening. < 1277503606 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good evening, sir/ma'am alise. < 1277503651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm captain of #esoteric now? < 1277503664 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1277503690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww... < 1277503768 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good day < 1277503796 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In my location, which is the same timezone as the log, it is not evening yet) < 1277503822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The log should *really* be in UTC, though. < 1277503828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, in fact, botte's log will be. < 1277503851 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have idea (I don't know how well it would work), that some program in Linux can run another program with override system call < 1277503867 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The log should be SIRCL, in my opinion < 1277503897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it can do that < 1277503900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anagolf does it < 1277503906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what, botte's or clog's? < 1277503913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If botte's, show me SIRCL and I'll consider it. < 1277503919 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About the system call, this is called "overcall" interface, and then it overrides some or all system calls for a child program, but that means the overcall has to emulate switch user ID's and stuff < 1277503933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm not sure then < 1277503944 0 :Warrigal!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277503944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there are bonus worlds elsewhere < 1277503954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, contrib or whatever it is called in your locale < 1277503960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: SuperTux. < 1277503962 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I saw those. < 1277503963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just guessing.) < 1277503968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal: Back to the old name? < 1277503971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, very varying quality < 1277503980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: That would be quite nice to have. Make for a nice sandboxing scheme. < 1277503980 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's always this when I connect. < 1277503980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, some bad, some near unplayable IMO < 1277503990 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi alise < 1277503990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal, always what? < 1277503996 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, I don't think I'll return to "uorygl". < 1277503998 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Warrigal". < 1277504002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal, ah < 1277504006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal is a much nicer name than uorygl, really. < 1277504015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing Lojban is not is pretty when you transliterate. < 1277504034 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: SIRCL: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/SIRCL http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irc_log/ADMIN/1275700304 < 1277504045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have idea (I don't know how well it would work), that some program in Linux can run another program with override system call <-- you could do that with ptrace iirc < 1277504048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, *that's* where "uorygl" comes from? < 1277504052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Indeed. < 1277504056 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal is Lojban? < 1277504071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Wait, *that's* where "uorygl" comes from? <-- where? < 1277504075 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Warrigal" is English; "uorygl" is "Warrigal" transcribed into Lojban. < 1277504075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl is "Warrigal" transliterated into Lojban. < 1277504101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Warrigal" is technically Australian English, isn't it? < 1277504105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, it should use LF not CRLF < 1277504107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, IMO < 1277504109 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One letter away from Finnish :-P < 1277504115 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: For the overcall interface, my other idea is, you have to also program in how PIDs outside the overcall interface appear inside it and also how PIDs inside it appear outside, and so on < 1277504121 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277504131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Respectfully, I dislike the inconsistent format, and also Unix timestamps. < 1277504144 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's like me changing my nick to ピケッ�キュー or something. < 1277504154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I will likely store it as S-Expressions or something similar. < 1277504160 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what is? < 1277504164 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl < 1277504171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So should I work on Flinix, a coreutils, or botte? < 1277504184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl is lojban!? < 1277504184 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Coreutils or botte. < 1277504194 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I can manage Flinix on my own. < 1277504205 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It uses CRLF because that is because the IRC protocol must use CRLF at the end of every line. < 1277504220 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SIRCL is not inconsistent. < 1277504225 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorugl would be much more valid Finnish, aye? < 1277504226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, botte? Flinix? < 1277504242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, SIRCL is not the IRC protocol though < 1277504251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But I was having such fun. < 1277504255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And don't tell AnMaster. < 1277504260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let him suffer for ignoring me! >:) < 1277504265 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's not a Lojban word; it's a word usable in Lojban. < 1277504265 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You are right, it isn't, but it is based on it < 1277504272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: My Flinix is better than your Flinix >_> < 1277504277 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal: Like said, a letter away. I'd've gone with "uorigl" as the approximation < 1277504279 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw, "pikecchikyuu" in Hepburn, "pikettikyuu" in Nihon-shiki, and "h^ikextutikixyuu" in my-bizarre-romanisation) < 1277504282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: :P < 1277504285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal, ah I see < 1277504294 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: mm, okay. < 1277504309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Pike ecchi: kyuu < 1277504312 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Doesn't Hepburn use those annoying macrons, making it pikecchikyū < 1277504315 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In addition, all * commands are even optional in SIRCL, which means that, it is completely valid to just copy a raw protocol transcript to a file and then prefix the UNIX timestamps. < 1277504319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and the usual English name? < 1277504319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a pike fetish you are not telling us about. < 1277504321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Ah, yes. < 1277504334 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although usually you want only channel messages, but a complete log is still a valid SIRCL log. < 1277504335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T�ky� <-- STUPID HEPBURN < 1277504338 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "pikhq"? < 1277504348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh I thought it was the name of that pokemon < 1277504349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nvm < 1277504355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is that too. < 1277504366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So, coreutils or botte? :P < 1277504373 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Dude, "Toukyou" and "tokyo" are two completely different words. :P < 1277504390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Wikipedia claims it's T�ky� :-) < 1277504396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, "tokyo" isn't a word in Japanese, but Toukyou is. < 1277504401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tokyo (�京, T�ky�; "Eastern Capital"?)" < 1277504427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's �京 in your crazy unprononuncable romanisation? < 1277504428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what is the capital of Japan called then? < 1277504435 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I tend to romanise using the kana rules for noting long vowels just because it's easier to type than a freaking macron. < 1277504435 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the bar over the "o" is more correct romaji < 1277504438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: T�ky�. < 1277504440 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But to be accurate you use kana < 1277504441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can't read this la la la < 1277504441 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Toukyou. < 1277504444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*unpronounceable < 1277504445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah < 1277504454 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1277504466 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Toukixyou < 1277504477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wrong, it's called Toukyou-to < 1277504479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My romanisation is an encoding of kana. :P < 1277504487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, more accurately, T�ky�-to < 1277504495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, perfectly, �京都 < 1277504529 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Dude, that's "The City of Tokyo", not just "Tokyo". < 1277504536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ahem* < 1277504539 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have my own romaji format with is also an encoding of kana, the city Tokyo is named "To.uKiyo.u" which is the encoding of the hiragana for the city name < 1277504545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tokyo (�京, T�ky�; "Eastern Capital"?), officially Tokyo Metropolis (�京都, T�ky�-to?),[2] is one of the 47 prefectures of Japan." < 1277504557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the capital of Japan is actually called �京都. < 1277504560 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, the Metropolis of Tokyo. < 1277504569 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My format is meant only for one thing though, only for encoding kana inside of ASCII text < 1277504570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And these are showing as boxes how can I get a Japanese font on Arch. < 1277504573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A nice one preferably) < 1277504598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and the capital of the US is the City of Washington in the District of Columbia, and the capital of the UK is the City of London. But *who the hell calls it that*? < 1277504629 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Capitalisation to indicate the start of a syllable or something? < 1277504636 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This kind of encoding I made is two ASCII characters per each kana. tsu is "Tu" and small tsu is "tu" < 1277504640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If we'll insist on Toukyou, not Tokyo, we can go all the way. < 1277504656 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. To indicate full-sized characters. Duh. < 1277504691 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ".u" is the u with no consonant, so put a period in place of the consonant letter < 1277504701 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: When discussing the actual word in Japanese, I feel perfectly justified in noting the difference between "Toukyou" and "tokyo". < 1277504712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :�京都, bitch. < 1277504738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next time you do that I am using all place names transcribed to Japanese and back. < 1277504753 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "o" is supposed to be long many English people do not understand that it is not "To ki o" < 1277504764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, idea: Chopin on SID chipset. I wonder what the heck it will sound like. < 1277504802 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"SID chipset" is meaningless to me < 1277504819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yes, and the capital of the US is the City of Washington in the District of Columbia, and the capital of the UK is the City of London. But *who the hell calls it that*? <-- what about City of Paris? < 1277504820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-P: Atari 8-bit music chip. < 1277504824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-P: err, no < 1277504827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-P: C64 < 1277504831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nop < 1277504834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-P: Analogue and awesome < 1277504841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hey, what's that nice Japanese font you recommended? Mincho Gothic or something? < 1277504854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Serifèd and all. < 1277504865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not afaik at least < 1277504913 0 :augur!~augur@207-38-139-21.c3-0.avec-ubr2.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277504940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-P, think C64 < 1277504948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-P, that is what had the SID chipset for the sound < 1277504958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-P, not get it? < 1277504961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now* < 1277504967 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I like the Gothic but if you want serif you use Mincho instead < 1277504970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, what a condescending way to explain something. < 1277504978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Think of this! And this! NOW do you get it?" < 1277504991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I definitely want some hawt serify action. < 1277504996 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"C64 sound chip" would have been wildly sufficient :P < 1277505013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wait... Japanese is going to look like shit with full hinting, isn't it? < 1277505052 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SID is the powerful indeed. Just imagine: three voices *at the same time*, and not just two, three or four waveforms: instead, *five* different waveforms. < 1277505066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, :D < 1277505072 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Use Mincho if you want serifs on Japanese text < 1277505079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-P, ah anyway I think you should render some of your music that way too. Why not a combination of that and your usual high quality sound fonts < 1277505095 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gothic is for Japanese texts without serif < 1277505101 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1277505148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kanji is so wonderfully ornate; it's a crime to render it sans serif! < 1277505164 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277505187 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-171.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277505201 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invented a format for module musics, like MOD/S3M/IT/XM but this is a new format: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/amm/amm.txt Do you think it is complete? I think it might be incomplete? Please make comment of it? < 1277505286 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It is *not* crime to render it sans serif; I have some Japanese books and they use both serifs and sans serifs writing in these books. (But if you don't like sans serif kanji, just use only serifs kanji yourself, is OK!) < 1277505302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: CRIME. < 1277505346 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably depends on how "high-end" you want it to be. IT (and I guess XM too) does things like multiple different samples per instrument, so that you can provide different samples for different notes for better-quality instruments. < 1277505355 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, it is a CRIME to render it sans serif. I thought you meant crime, because that is what you wrote. Why did you write crime if you meant CRIME? < 1277505372 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the ping-pong loop is pretty typical thing to support, though you can of course just mirror the bit in the wave data and loop that. < 1277505437 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. I've just found a something Haskell will definitely have an advantage in over Erlang for the MUD server: parsing. < 1277505445 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and string handling in general. < 1277505470 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the general-purpose-programmingy things, but that goes without saying. < 1277505511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what is the difference between crime and CRIME apart from the case? < 1277505552 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Maybe I can add ping-pong loop in this document? Or maybe, as you said, it is not needed because you can mirror it in the sample data. (If ping-pong is supported, perhaps it can be specified by making the loop start number greater than loop end number?) < 1277505556 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There is no difference. < 1277505569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, then explain " O, it is a CRIME to render it sans serif. I thought you meant crime, because that is what you wrote. Why did you write crime if you meant CRIME?" < 1277505588 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I cannot explain. < 1277505595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, uh okay < 1277505599 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is like a joke < 1277505600 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Mincho ~= serif, Gothic ~= sans serif. < 1277505601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1277505623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And hinting ~= makes ugly, prseumably. < 1277505640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, can you even real Japanese in the first place? < 1277505641 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kochi Mincho and Kochi Gothic are two common free fonts for Japanese... < 1277505643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1277505644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read* < 1277505645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not real < 1277505658 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: FNM time < 1277505673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, but it looks pretty. < 1277505687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and why do you care so much about serif/sans-serif for it < 1277505688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_ < 1277505690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1277505693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aur/ttf-kochi-substitute 20030809-4 (116) < 1277505693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : High quality Japanese TrueType fonts < 1277505695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Substitute, what. < 1277505708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because kanji is beautiful, and sans-serif kanji looks like comic sans! < 1277505714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, XD < 1277505728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is hand written kanji like? < 1277505739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I doubt it uses serifs very often < 1277505741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything from "almost like printed kanji" to "unreadable", according to pikhq. < 1277505742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Substitute for MSMincho and MSGothic. Which are shitty. < 1277505761 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything from "almost like printed kanji" to "unreadable by most". < 1277505765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Consider calligraphy. < 1277505774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They make up for the lack of serifs by making the characters awesome. :P < 1277505779 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-88-22.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1277505781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, right < 1277505786 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "unreadable by most" thing is a few particular styles of calligraphy. < 1277505819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grass script is absolutely unreadable, seal script is just hard to read because it is fairly archaic... < 1277505846 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it is, nowadays, only commonly used on seals. Hence the name.) < 1277505851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So I want that substitute package, right? < 1277505856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1277505861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and the grass is only common on grass? < 1277505877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Cur_eg.svg On right: grass script. On left: normal kanji. < 1277505878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discuss. < 1277505887 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Perhaps I can add a instrument mapping type if needed, maybe also does it need any additional synthesis types? Should it support FLAC encoding of samples? Should it have support for just intonation? < 1277505896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The "grass script" is called that because it looked like grass to someone. < 1277505899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has a vision of grass genetically altered to display Japanese letters
< 1277505927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, grass like the drug or like the thing on your lawn (hopefully not the same!) < 1277505928 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SVG alise linked reads "grass script" in Chinese and Japanese. < 1277505929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1277505945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using the Chinese variant of �) < 1277505949 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The thing on your lawn. < 1277505953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, "grass, the drug". < 1277505955 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The thing like the grass script on right, I see script looking something like that in some of the pieces in my shogi board? < 1277505957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which one is which there? < 1277505965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People say that. This is an accurate imitation of people who use HARD DRUGS like "'"grass"'". < 1277505982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yes, shogi pieces are usually written using grass script or semi-cursive script. < 1277506013 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hmm? The Japanese variant has the top portion written using a single horizontal line, rather than two horizontal lines. < 1277506039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I mean which side is of that is the grass script < 1277506041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the svg < 1277506057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Left side is "grass script" written in grass script. < 1277506065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, right side is? < 1277506072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1277506073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ^ < 1277506075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird mistab < 1277506082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be due to typing in the dark < 1277506084 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regular script. < 1277506091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1277506091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277506092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The right, like I said. < 1277506093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No... < 1277506094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other way around. < 1277506095 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I fucked that up. < 1277506097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Left: normal. < 1277506100 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swap my directions. < 1277506103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right: poop^Wgrass. < 1277506108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Left is regular script, right is grass script. < 1277506141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the grass script looks like stenography < 1277506148 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1277506152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it does not. < 1277506159 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It looks pretty complete, though of course you could want something where an effect's parameters (or just some other parameters, like the channel note) are controlled by the value of some other channel. Unless of course the indirection already works so that if you play note with the value of register X and then change the register while the note is playing, it'd also change the note. < 1277506161 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/09/Semi-Cur_Eg.png And here's a comparison of regular and semi-cursive script. < 1277506165 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The promoted side looks like more messy than the unpromoted side < 1277506179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well no, but like what japanese stenography would look like < 1277506194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also looks faster to type < 1277506197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fewer strokes < 1277506199 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though a bit harder to read, you can at least tell *what the hell is written*. < 1277506213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Type? < 1277506215 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh, nobody in Japan types based off of character strokes. < 1277506218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That... isn't how you type Japanese. < 1277506221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, err write < 1277506222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1277506227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, thinko < 1277506230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, you write in Japanese, you accept the consequences :P < 1277506235 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And people in China type based off of the structure of the character, not the strokes. < 1277506252 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I have not intended the indirection to work that way... < 1277506265 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typical hand-writing in Japanese is somewhere between regular and semi-cursive script most of the time. < 1277506273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you know like hand writing flowing together or separate chars. In Latin alphabets < 1277506280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former is faster to write < 1277506282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what cursive is, AnMaster. < 1277506289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But thank you for the lesson. < 1277506293 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a small handful of things ending up with bizarre glyph variants. < 1277506301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well I meant that the grass script looks a LOT faster to write than the normal script < 1277506314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, grass script is much faster to write. < 1277506315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Japanese requires much fewer Kanji to do the job than English needs letters. < 1277506321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, the left is serifed. < 1277506323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, true < 1277506325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody writes Japanese /serifed/. < 1277506325 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But *AGH* < 1277506340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/09/Semi-Cur_Eg.png ;; this is what people would actually write < 1277506351 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The left is hand-written with a brush. < 1277506360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it is serifed? Huh? < 1277506364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By a particularly neat scribe. < 1277506370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, the left is computer-rendered. :P < 1277506375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The left side is, yeah... < 1277506396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Still, plausible hand-writing. < 1277506397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, looks nothing like serifs in Latin alphabet < 1277506401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it does. < 1277506407 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By a calligrapher. < 1277506422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, wait, both sides use svg paths < 1277506424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In typography, serifs are semi-structural details on the ends of some of the strokes that make up letters and symbols." < 1277506434 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes the semi cursive is more easier to read than the grass script < 1277506438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Your point? < 1277506447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Ming_serif.svg ;; Demonstration of Japanese serifs. < 1277506449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just trying to figure out what the hell you mean < 1277506459 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the unpromoted side semi cursive and the promoted side is grass script? < 1277506465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Promoted?? < 1277506471 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Likely. < 1277506471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah < 1277506476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: He's discussing shogi pieces. < 1277506480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1277506487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Shogi? :P) < 1277506495 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shogi is Japanese chess. < 1277506497 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/lab/whothm/doc/applet.html < 1277506524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pieces can be promoted (much like pawns in regular chess), and they flip when this happens. < 1277506533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had the most awesome idea for a Star Trek dub, and those words are not truthfully uttered often. < 1277506544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, cool < 1277506549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Your browser is completely ignoring the applet tag! < 1277506562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ? < 1277506575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "?" about what? The Star Trek dub? < 1277506587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no the "ignoring the applet tag" < 1277506593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's what cpressey's page said to me. :) < 1277506600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah < 1277506617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you use a browser needing