00:01:41 Python can't seem to fork under Cygwin anymore. Yay. 00:03:02 use windows' python under cygwin :) 00:03:37 I would except for the eggs. 00:03:54 Man, there is a dimension along which Python is such a *joke*. 00:05:31 cpressey: You realise where the name comes from, right? 00:06:39 pikhq: The difference is, they were funny. 00:06:45 X-D 00:07:26 cpressey: The eggs thing has the same source. 00:07:29 Is it sinful to represent 1s and 0s in a way such that 1s don't need to be maintained by a constant pulse? 00:07:52 The spam spam spam spam ham eggs and spam doesn't have too much spam in it, you see. 00:10:54 Sgeo_: no. i would like to see the religion that even mentioned it. 00:11:18 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:11:41 -!- myndzi has joined. 00:11:53 Ye pulse of ye liffe of ye ones 00:12:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot). 00:12:58 Yay I fixed it by doing '/bin/rebaseall' from a hand-started-from-command-prompt ash shell 00:13:47 Need to be off though. 00:14:11 (circle-finger-thumb salute) Be seeing you. 00:14:14 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:18:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:19:02 -!- augur has joined. 00:20:48 lua-5.1: l51_npol.tmp: unexpected end in precompiled chunk 00:20:53 IT'S WRITING STUFF 00:22:46 is alise in the can today again 00:27:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:30:03 IT COMPILES AND RUNS \o/ 00:30:03 | 00:30:03 /< 00:30:08 now to actually make it do something 00:30:46 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 00:30:50 Night. 00:31:07 GreaseMonkey: If it compiles and runs, that means it works. 00:31:21 :P 00:31:28 ehirdiphone: Thank you for joining just to say that ... 00:31:35 Gregor-W: you forgot "and if it doesn't crash" 00:31:40 which is true, it doesn't crash. 00:31:47 no no, he's not joining just to say that, he's actually living backwards now 00:31:56 Gregor-W: I promised to be back soon. 00:31:59 freak time machine accident 00:32:10 Night ehirdiphone 00:32:22 .deednI :najreo 00:32:38 GreaseMonkey: Crashing != running 00:32:40 Bye. 00:32:44 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Client Quit). 00:32:56 hm, ehirdiphone is c'laeT? 00:33:01 hmmkay 00:40:09 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:44:03 -!- yiyus has joined. 00:47:53 -!- ipatrol has joined. 00:48:08 -!- Gregor-W has left (?). 00:48:59 I'm working on an idea called OS complete 00:49:49 That is to say a program that can emulate any turing machine running on a given OS 00:50:31 So filesystem, sockets, shell calls, and pipes 00:52:24 In the process I created a 2D version of brainfuck that containes several rows, traversable with ^ and _ 00:53:27 so is cygwin linux hard 00:53:50 Also a typing system consisting of Bool, Int, Char, and Base256 (string) 00:53:52 and this is the part where i basically give up because it looks like i'll need to spend lots of that thing called TIME on it. 00:54:20 GreaseMonkey: yes this 2d bf does sound a bit too complicated 00:54:51 ipatrol: how do nesting and direction change interplay 00:55:00 the idea is that you have a 2D array of routines or something like that 00:55:02 It's simple: bf has one array, 2D has more 00:55:11 one dimension for one program, another for the other 00:55:16 and basically every entry has 00:55:23 oklopol: ^ goes up an array, _ goes down 00:55:32 Using an array pointer 00:55:35 pre_exec prog_a_op prog_b_op post_exec 00:55:37 so think of 00:56:04 [[0],[0,5,8],[5,7,0]] 00:56:22 A two dimensional array 00:56:47 oh wait 00:56:51 you mean the memory is 2d 00:57:07 i'll probably need to use coroutines for this... 00:57:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:57:23 ...which is something Lua gives 00:57:28 int bfarray[size][size] = {{0}} 00:57:29 while i'm trying to make it in python 00:57:43 Yes, I'm using pythom 00:57:45 ipatrol: that doesn't answer my question 00:57:46 n 00:58:01 oklopol: Yes, the memory is two-D 00:58:03 okay 00:58:25 ipatrol: i detect a haskellite, you know String = [Char] and Char is not 256 values, right? 00:58:36 using python 00:58:42 I said base256 00:58:46 tho 00:58:50 Use baseconv on pypi 00:59:12 oh it's the same type names in python? 00:59:24 roughly 00:59:50 python doesn't have chars 00:59:54 -1 = None, 0 = False, above that is True 00:59:58 and the names are lowercase 01:00:05 oklopol: chr(value) 01:00:08 And its typesystem is all runtime. 01:00:14 that's a string 01:00:22 pikhq: yeah but talking about names 01:00:27 plan C: let's go back to Lua! 01:00:39 pikhq: No, Python is the interpreter's langiage 01:00:49 what 01:00:55 ipatrol: you say the weirdest things :P 01:01:08 oh python _is_ lowercase? 01:01:18 True. 01:01:26 oerjan: what? 01:01:27 Python is both 01:01:38 what does it mean for a language to be lowercase 01:01:47 ipatrol: your type names confused me because Bool, Int and Char are haskell types, including the capitalization 01:02:00 oklopol: *python's type names are 01:02:22 okay i couldn't have deduced you meant that 01:02:34 oerjan: I use classes to emulate that 01:02:53 and Base256 could easily be one, but String is based on Char which is not base 256 01:03:11 ipatrol: couldn't you let python emulate them with its own types? 01:03:16 (there is Bytestring though) 01:03:28 er maybe ByteString 01:03:36 oerjan: You can call them Fuck Damn and Hell for all I care! 01:03:41 i prefer python's way of not having characters at all, just strings 01:03:47 that's how math does it 01:03:49 too 01:03:55 ipatrol: i just thought you were using haskell, is all 01:04:04 or well, at least occasionally 01:04:10 oklopol: char is len(str) == 1 01:04:22 oerjan: WTF's haskell? 01:04:36 if you have an element of the alphabet then it's a symbol, but with regexps you tend to do what python does 01:04:42 ipatrol: a programming language that is quite popular in this channel 01:04:43 ipatrol: lol you definitely say the weirdest things 01:04:49 http://www.haskell.org/ 01:04:57 ipatrol: no 01:05:00 Better if I show you 01:05:20 You'll understand then 01:05:24 -!- ipatrol has quit (Quit: TCP FIN). 01:05:25 well you can think like that, but it doesn't really make sense that if you have a set of strings, some of them just happen to be chars instead when the length is 1 01:05:26 ipatrol: very unusual in many ways 01:05:35 IMO 01:05:39 i mean just IMO 01:06:09 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:06:24 * oerjan now expects oklopol to say "_I_ would have banned him already" ;D 01:07:53 :-=) 01:08:22 i don't get what he meant he was showing 01:09:29 i mean i understand the quit but i don't understand the showing 01:09:30 i hope he didn't think we have anything against python. it may very well be even more popular than haskell here 01:09:45 python!" 01:09:50 *-" 01:12:42 wait math has just strings no characters? i'm not sure that's accurate. 01:13:21 it's not 01:13:22 i'd rather say math has rampant implicit type casts, which work from a set to its free monoid among other things 01:13:26 yes 01:13:33 that's what i meant 01:13:42 i did elaborate on this a bit 01:13:56 oh 01:14:00 not nearly as clearly as you 01:14:11 * oerjan should learn to read to the bottom before responding. nah. 01:15:00 sometimes there definitely are symbols, but i mean say in combinatorics on words, i just can't imagine how it could ever be useful 01:15:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:15:58 anything you can do with symbols makes sense with words, one-letter strings just have a few important properties, some of which are shared by for instance unbordered words 01:16:19 well w/e i'm sure we're in an understanding, i'm not sure who i'm talking to 01:16:36 wow immibis's bfjoust programs are REALLY big when you unpack them 01:16:36 i should consider going to work maybe 01:16:42 -!- Gregor has joined. 01:16:47 immibis is alive? 01:16:49 oklopol: hm like if you have a prefix-free set of words, you can easily pretend _they_ are symbols instead 01:16:51 where does he flood nowadays? 01:17:05 is there a bfjoust program with the {} things in them? 01:17:24 or suffix-free 01:18:44 yes, at least it would make *sense*, i'm trying to find some sort of example 01:20:47 but mostly i just meant that you say things like u=aw where |a|=1, instead of ever using a variable of type symbol 01:21:07 also i misparsed "variable of type symbol" a second after writing it 01:22:01 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:22:21 also many times i think i've seen a case of something being proven for binary, and then a trivial reduction from the general case with the morphism a_n --> 0^n 1, so in that case i guess it would be clear that a prefix set will behave like its unique inverse image 01:22:22 well sometimes you use capital letters for words that aren't symbols, i think 01:22:29 not in cow 01:22:32 well 01:22:40 at least in the small amount of literature i've read 01:22:42 like metasyntactic variables, really 01:22:48 cow? 01:22:56 capitals are for languages 01:23:02 combinatorics o[nf] words 01:23:26 hm i may be thinking of logic 01:23:34 which also uses words 01:23:56 i don't know anything about logic 01:24:09 i wish i did, apparently tiles are important in logic 01:24:35 whether a tilesets admits a periodic tiling is the same as whether there's a finite model for some type of logic afaiu 01:24:38 well 01:24:50 afair, i don't know what logic, and what kind of correspondence 01:24:57 * oerjan hasn't seen any logic with tiles 01:24:59 but that's where the problem comes from, wang was a logician 01:25:11 yeah there's no logic to them 01:25:18 oh that's sort of a mutual reduction thing then probably, like with NP-complete problems 01:26:30 well, maybe. 01:26:49 food -> 01:26:49 Compiling program 1 (19417 bytes) - wow, doesn't actually compile yet but oh boy this is slow. 01:27:10 i'm planning on reading about this, maybe i can tell you then 01:27:24 although i do have tons of other stuff to read first 01:28:03 much faster when i use file i/o 01:28:49 takes a while to load though 01:29:03 but it's not that bad actually 01:51:49 -!- augur has joined. 01:58:58 argh crap i' 01:59:06 m not getting the same results for both ways 01:59:59 !bfjoust simple >[-]+[->[-]+] 02:00:09 Score for GreaseMonkey_simple: 3.5 02:01:29 !bfjoust simple (>)*15[-]+[->[-]+] 02:01:36 Score for GreaseMonkey_simple: 1.7 02:01:53 !bfjoust simple (>)*10[-]+[->[-]+] 02:02:01 Score for GreaseMonkey_simple: 3.5 02:05:24 !bfjoust simple (>)*10[-]+[->[-]+]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 02:05:32 Score for oklopol_simple: 3.5 02:05:35 A friend of mine is saying his MSN account was frozen by a bot. 02:05:39 !bfjoust simple (>)*10[-]+[->[-]+++++] 02:05:47 Score for oklopol_simple: 3.8 02:05:51 !bfjoust simple (>)*25[-]+[->[-]+++++] 02:05:52 A google search suggests that, if it weren't for that, and I was looking for information, it's made-up BS 02:05:58 Score for oklopol_simple: 0.0 02:06:02 !bfjoust simple (>)*8[-]+[->[-]+++++] 02:06:10 Score for oklopol_simple: 4.9 02:06:16 !bfjoust simple (>)*3[-]+[->[-]+++++](>)*50 02:06:17 "Get MSN Freezer bots here!" "Send me money, and I'll freeze someone's account!" 02:06:23 damn i'm good at this game! 02:06:25 Score for oklopol_simple: 5.2 02:06:35 So, anyone know how they work, and how to reverse it? 02:06:41 !bfjoust simple [->]+[->[-]+++++](>)*50 02:06:49 Score for oklopol_simple: 5.8 02:06:58 !bfjoust simple [->][->]+[->[-]+++++](>)*50 02:07:08 Score for oklopol_simple: 7.5 02:07:11 :D 02:07:27 !bfjoust simple [->][->][<-][<-] 02:07:36 Score for oklopol_simple: 4.1 02:07:38 "They work actually, it works by signing into their account multiple times (or attempting to) with random passwords so eventually their login won't work (freezes)." 02:07:46 so what was this game again 02:12:24 how does bfjoust work again? 02:17:32 coppro: look at the wiki 02:17:47 lazy 02:18:05 oh. SO AM I. 02:18:43 WTF 02:18:52 Facebook said there was unusual activity on my account 02:19:38 i guess this is a good time for us that have neither MSN nor facebook accounts, then. 02:19:54 ^5 oerjan 02:19:54 02:21:35 \|||| 02:26:08 You know what it might be? It might have been Meeb.. no, it wouldn't be Meebo 02:42:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_British_Coinage_2008.jpg Oh my goodness those are awesome coin designs. 02:47:25 Yeah, but they'll look stupid when they're not arranged like that ;) 02:48:21 Clearly British people should keep their coins mounted. 02:48:25 *CLEARLY*. 02:58:03 No, Google calendar, you're not going to find Second Life on any map 02:59:58 Thank GOD 03:02:59 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 03:06:10 -!- Oranjer has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:06:55 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer. 03:10:01 I'm in a club for a rezday party. 03:10:12 The lag is horrendous 03:10:16 I need a new computer 03:13:56 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 03:16:00 -!- Oranjer has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:18:21 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 03:20:52 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:25:57 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:27:33 Heh... TC games like enigma allow maps that are solvable by construction and one can fairly easily show that they are possible from level script, but are still practically impossible to solve, even with access to level script... 03:27:58 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer. 03:29:28 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:30:01 That is, map that can be shown to be solvable with solution of practical length, but still is practically impossible. 03:30:43 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:32:01 And the level would be completely deterministic, with nothing random. 03:44:22 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:56:32 -!- oklopol has joined. 04:07:06 All of a sudden, I'm making out with rezday girl. "I didn't touch a thing" "Yeah right lol" 04:15:38 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 04:16:01 -!- Oranjer has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:17:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:34:50 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:46:52 o.O 04:46:56 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 04:47:44 Ever since, as a kid, I saw that forms could be submitted to emails, until just about now, I thought that submitting forms to email were magical. Easy way to take care of data without needing to write server code. Didn't realize that an email client would have to open. 04:51:55 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:53:10 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:53:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:57:15 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:58:17 -!- Oranjer1 has left (?). 05:01:26 -!- donttalknojive has joined. 05:04:45 -!- donttalknojive has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:05:40 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:07:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:32:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:34:36 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:47:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:52:24 -!- cal153 has joined. 05:59:51 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:09:10 what's the unix number generating utility again? 06:09:34 ah, right, seq 06:10:31 <3 wget + seq 06:12:56 Downloading porn? 06:13:32 speedruns 06:13:48 * pikhq prefers using zsh 06:13:59 Much nicer syntax for sequences. 06:16:00 speedruns of what? 06:16:19 Porn? > 06:16:38 games 06:17:37 What games? 06:17:41 >.> 06:23:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:25:31 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:26:15 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:35:55 http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/cjuxf/scientist_in_a_sense_im_a_born_killer/c0t3n1n how many comment karma points do you think i'll get for this 06:44:01 none 06:44:11 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:44:45 :( 06:44:47 i hate you 06:44:52 I HATE YOU SO MUCH 06:44:55 * augur runs away crying 06:45:36 -!- oklopol has joined. 07:01:11 After watching lots of tool-assisted speedruns, ordinary non-TAS speedruns seem sloppy. :-) 07:01:36 I like that 07:01:50 TASes are silly 07:12:48 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:23:56 coppro: lrn2curl 07:35:16 bsmntbombdood: why would I bother? 07:35:22 waste of time 07:35:36 because you want to use the right tool for the job? 07:40:37 because wget isn't? 07:41:57 not if you're using seq 07:42:12 curl foo.com/[0-15] 07:42:33 or, for i in `seq 0 15`; do wget foo.com/$i; done? 07:45:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:46:17 You need to remember a messy "-o '#1'" in the curl command to get that stuff into separate files; the wget version writes to files by default. 07:46:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:46:54 (I guess it's still simpler, but anyhow.) 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:59 bsmntbombdood: per Unix philosophy, the latter is correct 08:09:15 I'd have written it as "seq 0 15 | xargs -i wget foo.com/{}" just to get one more process in the mix. (Perhaps one could add a couple of cats in the middle of the pipe too.) 08:09:58 Pipelines: it's what's for dinner. 08:18:35 Don't you know that -i is deprecated? 08:21:21 -!- tombom has joined. 08:24:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 08:24:39 2n1s 08:25:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:26:01 Deewiant: Oh, you're meant to do -I with a specified string. I did not know that. 08:26:20 Deewiant: [2010-06-28 14:30:09] Tweeted: About NetHack: of it in tins... "need we wait until morning then?" "how perceptive of you to notice a mimic in an antique shop." (fungot) 08:26:20 fizzie: that's because you're a wannabe windows user scum with jelly for brains." 08:26:28 How polite that bot is. 08:26:38 :-D 08:26:50 ^style 08:26:50 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 08:26:53 fungot: I suppose you have all the xargs options memorized then, huh? 08:26:53 fizzie: maybe that explains my problems... i hope 08:32:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:35:57 Wannabe Windows user? 08:36:45 Who'd want to use Windows? 08:36:59 Sgeo_: Someone with jelly for brains, perhaps? 08:37:11 * oerjan oozes towards fizzie 08:46:10 oerjan is in reality a gelatinous cube? 08:46:49 well up to a constant multiple (of viscosity) anyway 08:47:12 = O(gelatinous cube) 08:47:32 But with a shape of a 10-foot cube anyhow? 08:47:51 _maybe_ a tiny bit of O() there too 08:48:54 There's that classical "assume a spherical cow" joke. 08:49:17 I think a cylinder would be a better approximation 08:49:59 i think i may still have some years left until sphericality 08:51:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:02:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:02:07 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 09:08:20 -!- pikhq has joined. 09:27:17 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:03:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 10:52:54 http://www.kongregate.com/games/richthepanda/scent-trail-bot 11:03:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:03:59 Deewiant: Programming games are the nicest of them all. 11:06:38 This one was nice at any rate 11:10:19 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:24:12 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:32:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:37:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:50:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:14:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:01:17 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:14:04 -!- yiyus has joined. 13:25:52 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 14:02:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:08:15 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 14:08:16 fungot: I suppose you have all the xargs options memorized then, huh? 14:08:16 fizzie: maybe that explains my problems... i hope 14:08:16 oklopol: advice for jonphilpott stops messaging, call 911. and it's good for scientists and 3 year olds? 14:08:17 oklopol: hmm i need signed fractions... okie, let me grab the source from the files or the html to run them all 14:08:17 oklopol: if that helps, please ask if you could 14:08:17 :D 14:09:10 fungot: Is everything okay? You're being strangely coherent today. 14:09:11 fizzie: yup ill read it over reading week. 14:09:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:14:13 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:54:23 yay fungot 14:54:24 ais523: stuff like that 14:55:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:00:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:03:26 -!- relet has joined. 15:07:26 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:32:23 fizzie, funny thing when cross compiling: compiling newlib fails in configure with gcc not being able to create executables. Looking at config.log it fails due to not finding -lc 15:32:44 well, that was after I manually compiled crt0.o (provided by libc normally) 15:33:03 the issue seems to be newlib doesn't realise it is cross compiling. Somehow 15:49:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:49:33 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:50:50 scentbot is a bit tedious 15:55:18 How's that 15:56:30 It felt a bit too clicky to me, but didn't really try it out much. 15:57:09 You can type the whole thing if you press esc 15:57:29 It probably won't like syntax errors much though 15:57:38 I only used it to move stuff around and copy-paste 15:58:41 oh okay 15:58:57 it didn't say "press esc", it said "press these buttons here" 15:59:08 It's meant for saving/loading solutions 15:59:13 okay 15:59:16 It says it on the left in the level selection screen 15:59:16 It does mention esc somewhere, I saw it there. 15:59:39 i refuse to believe you, but okay i believe it might be fun in that case 15:59:39 Ah, there. 15:59:47 But like said, I found it convenient for not just saving/loading 15:59:48 except the bot is really slow 15:59:59 Yeah, that's a bit annoying 16:00:21 Sometimes, it's too fast when I want to see the exact sequence of what happened ;-) 16:00:23 did you complete the game 16:00:28 Yeah, I did them all 16:00:37 anything interesting? 16:00:44 i guess because you linked 16:00:50 What's that one button there do, the one near the start/stop one? 16:00:50 I found it fun enough 16:01:11 It says in the manual... I think it was about toggling some transparency thing 16:01:32 Ah, right. Transparencies were indeed mentioned. 16:02:58 transparency is just a fancy word for see-through 16:03:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:08:14 See-through is just a fancy name that they'll probably invent after see-sharp has gone stale. 16:08:31 What's wrong with C#? 16:08:43 It's going stale 16:08:56 You'd better eat it fast. 16:09:45 Why's it going stale? 16:11:19 Everything does, sooner or later. The seriousness level is not terribly high at the moment, I was just responding to oklopol's comment. 16:12:23 The delegates (esp. how you can combine them with +/+= and how they keep those invocation lists inside them) feel a bit awkwardly hacky to me (but maybe that's just me), if you want one less frivolous thing. 16:18:36 OK, I'm going to try to switch to x64 again. 16:44:31 Donald Knuth is making an "earthshaking" announcement today. 16:45:13 Oh, what is it? 16:45:22 Well, any clues as to its nature? 16:45:45 Edsger Dijkstra is actually still alive, and in hiding. In Jamaica. 16:45:54 It's Knuth. And at a TeX conference. 16:46:22 TeX has never worked all along? 16:46:35 TAoCP finished? 16:47:02 What? 16:47:12 First the Forth Bridge, now this? 16:47:33 What will we use when we need to make an analogy for a task that will never end? 16:48:26 Duke Nukem Forever. 16:49:02 It ended 16:50:22 Clearly the end times are nigh. 16:51:04 Ah, GNU HURD. 16:53:26 If it finishes, we're all doomed. 16:54:12 They've released. 16:54:17 Last in '98, but still. 16:55:09 I thought it was totally unusable for practical purposes? 16:55:21 s/?/./ 16:55:36 I *really* need to stop doing that. 16:57:26 *Effectively* useless. 16:57:32 It does in fact *run*. 16:57:51 What makes it useless, by the way? 16:58:02 It's slow and buggy. 17:15:35 And probably has phenomenal driver support 17:16:58 It's got the Linux 2.2 driver stack. 17:19:26 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 17:20:20 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye). 17:35:37 Also the famous 1 gigabyte partition size limit (I'm not sure if it's still alive, but it was there not long ago). 17:49:56 Firefox has just frozen for no reason, and is devouring memory. 18:01:12 3.6.6? 18:02:14 I think so. 18:02:27 No, 3.6.3. 18:07:38 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 18:07:48 Flash? 18:08:01 Not at the time, as far as I know. 18:08:13 But it /could/ have been ;-P 18:09:16 I cannot discount the possibility that Flash is conspiring against me, no. 18:15:36 -!- hiato has joined. 18:54:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:19:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:46:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:48:09 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:06:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:06:55 I am having annoying misgivings about switching to 64-bit. 20:17:44 scentbot is a bit tedious <-- what is scentbot? google proved unhelpful 20:26:03 The log would be more helpful. 20:26:37 http://www.kongregate.com/games/richthepanda/scent-trail-bot 20:26:49 That is "scentbot". 20:27:59 Phantom_Hoover, I think http://codu.org/projects/trac/microcosm/wiki should answer all questions now? ;P 20:28:42 or at least several 20:32:04 AnMaster: thanks. 20:32:18 Thanks, AnMaster. ThanMaster. 20:32:24 I had to do that; sorry. 20:32:38 it isn't even very funny... 20:33:05 I know. It's a reference to Look Around You. 20:33:18 never heard of that 20:33:32 and for anyone wanting serious confusion: http://codu.org/projects/trac/microcosm/wiki/modules 20:33:48 It's a BBC comedy that spoofed 70s-era educational programmes. 20:33:53 I see 20:34:41 One of the running gags is to have someone say "Thanks, . Th." 20:40:39 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:42:23 Phantom_Hoover, why would that ever be fun 20:42:33 It isn't. 20:42:39 One I would like to see spoof of (changing things in it to reflect reality would do) is one darn food propaganda video that they showed in elementary school... 20:43:06 Phantom_Hoover, ah.. that type of joke 20:43:29 Ilari, food propaganda? 20:43:39 AnMaster: "Healthy" food propaganda. 20:44:09 Ilari, well, what is considered healthy changes from one day to the next 20:44:14 *shrug* 20:46:46 Installing Ubuntu over itself is harder than I thought... 20:47:19 There is single objective reality (but also, person-to-person variance). There's scientific approximation of that (the best currently known). Then there's what's reported/taught, which has been completely distorted (and prone to flip-flopping). 20:47:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:47:40 oerjan! 20:48:00 no, i'm his evil twin brother. 20:48:21 Who is also called "Ørjan"? 20:49:10 no i stole his nick, stupid! 20:49:16 Ah. 20:49:31 Why are you evil? 20:49:52 AnMaster: The appearence of flip-flopping is mostly due to reporting... 20:50:11 Ilari, hm probably 20:50:23 to preserve the fundamental balance of the universe, of course. before i destroy it, that is. 20:50:52 But oerjan wasn't *that* good. 20:50:53 * AnMaster waits for the manic laugh 20:50:57 no contradiction really, nothing is also quite balanced 20:51:07 His complement would just be a bit nasty. 20:51:34 AnMaster: re http://codu.org/projects/trac/microcosm/wiki : I always love when the word "any" is in scare quotes. 20:51:40 Well, unless he's been building schools in the third world and hasn't told anyone 20:51:41 i am sure oerjan will be happy to hear that. 20:51:50 AnMaster: Then major landmark studies are not reported because results are not "correct" (nevermind that results depict reality). And extremely bad studies are reported simply because results are "correct". 20:52:34 For "all" x, there "exists" y, such that y is "greater than" x. 20:52:47 oerjan, okay then, can you tell the real oerjan that I want him to read https://codu.org/projects/trac/microcosm/wiki/modules . You however must not look at it. It is secret information for you 20:52:47 oerjan: why would his evil twin want to destroy the world? 20:52:52 20:52:53 Phantom_Hoover: ah but you are ignoring the fact that destruction is so much _easier_ than protection, thus balance means evil is stronger. for example, have you ever heard of a defence against a nuclear bomb? 20:53:08 cpressey, hm tell Gregor that :P 20:53:10 Not being anywhere near one? 20:53:25 Nuclear bomb or nuclear-tipped missile? :-) 20:53:28 Having a load of stuff between you and it? 20:53:41 well we evil people are _quite_ satisfied with people fleeing, usually. 20:53:59 oerjan, yes I have. being somewhere else sufficiently far away is a good defence 20:54:09 -!- augur has joined. 20:54:14 AnMaster: I already said that. 20:54:23 Phantom_Hoover, only noticed afterwards 20:54:29 Phantom_Hoover, was logreading at the same time 20:54:41 AnMaster: not when i've taken over the whole world! *MWAHAHAHAHA* 20:54:48 oerjan, :P 20:55:09 Also, if destruction is easier than protection, surely oerjan's evil twin would be less evil than oerjan is good? 20:55:29 oerjan, don't you mean http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanDisservice ? 20:55:38 And lo, it turns out "fan service" has a wikipedia entry. 20:55:52 cpressey, there is tv tropes always 20:56:00 cpressey, but you don't want to click on that unless you are oerjan 20:56:06 or his evil twin 20:56:12 My IRC client blocks links to tvtropes.org. 20:56:17 cpressey, :D 20:56:33 cpressey, does it block the whole line? or just the url? 20:57:07 cpressey, and does it leave any marker? like or such? 20:57:08 Just the URL. It replaces it with a frowny-face. 20:57:22 cpressey, heh 20:57:56 cpressey: all links, or just those to vaguely risqué pages? 20:57:58 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 20:58:23 Heh... Just thought that: "fantasy has to be believable, reality is not bound by such constraints."... :-) 20:58:25 Phantom_Hoover: All links. 20:58:26 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsGun 20:58:38 Very odd... 21:00:32 Phantom_Hoover: no no, i'm exactly as evil as oerjan is good (up to rounding errors), which is why you are screwed. *MWAHAHAHACKACK CACK CACK* damn cigarettes 21:00:54 So oerjan is basically a saint? 21:01:23 you don't seem to be getting the point that destruction is easier than protection, here... 21:01:31 oerjan, so the real oerjan doesn't smoke? 21:01:33 good for him 21:01:37 Smoking and sugar are bad for you... :-> 21:01:56 AnMaster: your logic is impeccable. it will not save you though. 21:02:09 oerjan, where is the real oerjan? 21:02:28 tied up in the closet. 21:02:31 oerjan: what is your plan for world domination? 21:02:43 secret. 21:03:02 oerjan: classic mistake #1. If you steal someone's identity, *kill* them. 21:03:59 Phantom_Hoover, don't teach him! 21:04:03 i cannot kill oerjan, because then the universe might act to rebalance itself, and i wouldn't want _that_ would i 21:04:40 Gee, this redistribution-of-evil thing is harder than it sounds. 21:04:46 oerjan: Fair point. Are you extremely bad at maths? 21:05:02 no, just morals. *MWAHAHAHA* 21:05:13 ffs 21:05:29 oerjan: Not exactly an opposite, then, are you? 21:05:49 i said i was his _evil_ twin, not his exact opposite. 21:06:19 oerjan: If I guess your real name, do you disappear in a puff of smoke? 21:06:19 oerjan: OK, then. Why didn't real Oerjan mention you? 21:06:49 cpressey: no. 21:07:36 what's that sound from the closet... 21:08:39 Honestly, you aren't very good at this whole villainy thing, are you? 21:08:42 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:09:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:09:28 So, are you real oerjan? 21:09:42 real? of course. 21:09:51 Not his evil twin? 21:09:57 what evil twin? 21:10:06 Phantom_Hoover, don't trust him 21:10:20 AnMaster: I don't plan to. 21:10:26 well i don't trust myself either, so that may be a good idea 21:10:34 Why is NAND considered more.. useful, or whatever, than AND... I think I know. With AND, you need NOT to get NAND 21:10:35 For one thing, how did he fail to notice that he was tied up in a closet? 21:10:42 Phantom_Hoover, exactly! 21:10:49 Sgeo: NAND is universal. AND isn't. 21:10:58 tied up? 21:11:14 Phantom_Hoover, but why is that, is my question, I think 21:11:39 Phantom_Hoover, I guess one could say oerjan has come out of the closest now! XD 21:11:45 Phantom_Hoover, if that is what happened 21:11:51 Sgeo: oerjan knows something about that. 21:12:14 Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post's_lattice and i think that's at least the third time i link to it here 21:12:18 But this could be his evil twin, so don't believe a word he says. 21:12:23 IT'S A TRAP! 21:12:47 (that lattice summarizes everything about which boolean functions can be expressed with which others) 21:12:50 Why is... those things? 21:13:55 in particular NAND generates the top element, while AND generates the one called /\P, far below 21:14:04 Yay clones yay 21:14:28 (the top element being the set of all boolean functions) 21:14:37 * Sgeo headaches 21:15:33 Sgeo: perhaps a more practical thing is that NAND is something you need exactly one transistor to make, so counting in terms of NAND gives you a count of transistors - i think 21:15:54 Are you allowed to use constants when making a gate universal? 21:16:10 oerjan: I think not? 21:16:15 I'm working with Awsistors not Transistors >.> 21:16:21 Phantom_Hoover: not in that lattice 21:16:28 Sgeo, wth is Awsistors? 21:16:41 or are* 21:16:53 My name for a fundamental.. thingy in AW 21:16:54 cpressey: well anyway AND doesn't require any, so the points where you apply NOT are sort of the important ones? (this is very vague memory) 21:16:55 If you *can* make a NAND with only one transistor, it'll have crappy electrical properties. 21:17:05 Sgeo: if you can build a NAND (or NOR) gate, you can make anything else. 21:17:07 Sgeo, AW? 21:17:15 Active Worlds 21:17:22 oerjan: AND doesn't require any transistors?? 21:17:30 Phantom_Hoover, including a computer? If not, what else do I need to make a computer? 21:17:42 And does NAND prove turing-completeness? 21:17:46 Sgeo: perhaps a more practical thing is that NAND is something you need exactly one transistor to make, so counting in terms of NAND gives you a count of transistors - i think <-- I thought you needed at least two (or was it 4?) 21:17:50 Sgeo: well, memory, probably. 21:18:14 Have that 21:18:50 Sgeo: anyway to give you _part_ of the explanation why AND doesn't generate everything: AND is a monotone function, which means if you change one input from 0 to 1, the output cannot ever change from 1 to 0. and you cannot compose non-monotone functions from monotone ones (it's the class M near the top, so AND doesn't give all of those either, but if you add OR and constants, you get them) 21:18:58 oerjan, AND gates are implemented with a NAND + an inverter basically 21:19:30 AnMaster: hm well isn't there _some_ gate that you get just by connecting wires with resistors? maybe OR? 21:19:31 Sgeo: well, you can build addition, subtraction and multiplication gates with NAND 21:19:36 oerjan, and for all cases I have seen in CMOS it is 4 gates for NAND + 2 for inverter, you could probably get by on half of that in nMOS but it would consume more static power 21:19:38 AnMaster: I don't think that's true either. That would take 3 transitors, when you only need 2. 21:20:02 OK, CMOS might be a diff story from TTL. 21:20:23 cpressey, I don't know much about how you do TTL. I know CMOS and a tiny bit of nMOS 21:20:36 Sgeo: I have circuit diagrams which I drew up in a fit of madness, but they're probably hugely improvable. 21:20:42 oerjan: You can make OR with just wires, but it still has crappy electrical properties unless you put diodes on the inputs. 21:20:47 Otherwise the inputs have crosstalk. 21:20:48 cpressey, don't TTL use non-MOS gates? 21:21:01 * Sgeo doesn't have to worry about crosstalk 21:21:03 err 21:21:04 Or diodes 21:21:07 transistors* 21:21:10 Phantom_Hoover: however adding constants is certainly _also_ represented as elements in that lattice 21:21:15 cpressey, is it the one with bipolar transistors? 21:21:22 AnMaster: Yes. That's what I think of as a plain "transistor". 21:21:28 TTL => BJTs. 21:21:44 cpressey, to me plain transistor = pMOS or nMOS 21:21:55 Ilari, BJT standing for? 21:22:03 Bipolar Junction Transistor 21:22:06 ah 21:22:36 Ilari, what use are they nowdays in digital logic? 21:22:43 AnMaster: Pretty much none. 21:22:49 right 21:23:10 They are used in analog signal processing. 21:23:41 Sgeo: wha are you actually trying to do at the moment? 21:24:05 Phantom_Hoover, prove turing-completeness. THen, try to figure out how I'd go about designing a computer 21:24:20 Ilari, AD -> [processing goes here] -> DA ;P 21:24:25 oerjan: do universal gates imply TCness? 21:24:26 Sgeo: NAND gives you all boolean functions of a finite set of bits. that's not quite the same as TC, unless you can use infinitely many gates. 21:24:26 Common Transistor types: Bipolars (for Si, that's BJT), junction transistors (for Si, that's JFET) and metal-insulator-semiconductor transistors (for Si, that's MOSFET). 21:24:39 Ilari, what do you use JFET for? 21:24:51 Ilari, also what is Si? 21:24:53 oh 21:24:54 not SI? 21:24:56 right 21:24:58 Silicon I guess 21:25:02 Yup. 21:25:15 oerjan: by "infinite" do you mean "unbounded"? 21:25:16 Ilari, but why wouldn't it be MOSFET if it isn't Si? 21:25:16 also you cannot loop with pure abstract NAND gates either, although if you introduce time delay you can get memory with flip-flops. 21:25:17 oerjan: Complexity theorists have "Infinite families of finite boolean functions" for that purpose. They're insane IMO. 21:25:32 AnMaster: You need analog for front stage before A/D converter. 21:25:33 I can create arbitrary amounts of gates, but it's like adding new hardware 21:25:42 Phantom_Hoover: no, actual infinite in that case, because how would you add them on the fly? 21:25:45 Well, maybe not "arbitrary". Eventually, there's a limit 21:26:02 There is an infinite family of finite boolean functions which solves the Halting problem (because IF's of FBFs don't have to be defined constructively) 21:26:03 Also, time delays are easy 21:26:04 oerjan: Oh, halting. 21:26:33 AnMaster: Well, if one builds the corresponding structure from carbon (its possible, in place of oxide layer there's undoped layer), its MISFET. 21:27:11 Phantom_Hoover: yeah 21:27:29 cpressey: circuit complexity is cool :) 21:27:39 oerjan: OK, assuming infinite feedback, can we be TC? 21:27:43 i don't know _too_ much about it yet 21:28:03 MESFETs are not related to MOSFETs (thet are like JFETs). MISFETs and MOSFETs are closely related. 21:28:45 Phantom_Hoover: well with infinite memory and feedback you have everything needed for a TM, so yes 21:28:55 Ilari, aww, why couldn't it be MOSFIT so the carbon one ended up as MISFIT! 21:29:08 Ilari, but what does the O and I stand for? 21:29:22 So it needs feedback and to have independent memory units? 21:29:45 -!- Adrian^L has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:29:49 -!- Adrian^L has joined. 21:29:54 AnMaster: Oxide 21:29:57 Phantom_Hoover: well you _could_ get away from feedback by making it even larger, multiplying gates for each timestep 21:30:02 Ilari, and the I? 21:30:02 If you can have an arbitrarily large but finite memory is it TC? 21:30:08 AnMaster: Insulator 21:30:19 Ilari, ah. But the oxide is an insulator isn't it?... 21:30:37 AnMaster: Yes. 21:30:42 sigh 21:30:51 Phantom_Hoover: no, once again the halting problem 21:30:57 Ilari, okay what do you use JFET for though? didn't think I saw any answer to that 21:31:02 don't* 21:31:11 you cannot know in advance how much memory you need 21:31:25 oerjan: OK. 21:31:39 Sgeo: does this suffice? 21:31:43 oerjan, nothing forbid suspending the system as you build new memory 21:31:55 oerjan, like, JIT memory 21:31:59 AnMaster: At least discrete op-amp input transistors often are those. But otherwise they are mostly obsoleted by MOSFETs. 21:32:11 Sgeo: wait, you can't have infinite memory. 21:32:11 AnMaster: well you need some gates that support suspension then :D 21:32:17 Ilari, ah 21:32:43 oerjan, sure, just gate the clock signal right after the clock generator! 21:32:46 oerjan: what computational class is arbitrary-but-finite memory? 21:33:04 oerjan, problem solved. The flip-flops will stay the same forever, assuming you only use sync logic 21:33:06 and no async 21:33:23 Wait, does what suffice? 21:33:43 Phantom_Hoover, Bounded Storage Machine? 21:33:57 What's simplest formal language that's not context-sensitive? :-) 21:34:11 Sgeo: the requirements I gave, for TCness. If you can't have infinite or extensible memory, it's a BSM. 21:34:29 aka Finite State Machine 21:34:29 Like a^n b^n is not regular, a^n b^n c^n is not context free... 21:34:40 Phantom_Hoover: SPACE(f) where f is an arbitrary function giving how much memory you have? 21:34:43 By "extensible"... 21:34:44 ? 21:34:50 (given input size) 21:34:59 Sgeo: you can add arbitrarily more memory during runtime. 21:35:02 Ilari: Simplest? a^n b^n is simple and not context sensitive 21:35:19 You can't do that in real life! 21:35:20 a^1 is even simpler 21:35:33 not context sensitive meaning exceeds what context sensitive grammars can express. 21:35:37 But.. no 21:35:47 Oh, but still decidable. 21:35:51 Phantom_Hoover: the problem here is that you need some restrictions on how to calculate f, because if calculate it with something super-turing itself, you get that the result _can_ solve the halting problem 21:36:16 Sgeo: Then it's not TC, in the same way that C isn't TC. i.e. pointlessly. 21:37:21 At least any simple language that's EXPSPACE-complete to recognize would do... 21:37:23 Can you emulate a Turing Machine in it? 21:37:28 Ilari: well context-sensitive is known to be equivalent to linear space, so take any language that cannot be decided in linear space 21:37:28 Why don't I just announce that I've built a NAND gate, and see what the reaction is 21:37:45 Sgeo: Conglaturations! It's damn near TC! 21:38:04 I first actually need to build the gate, though 21:38:33 Ilari: i keep forgetting you already know this stuff :D 21:39:01 I can emulate some Turing Machines on this computer I'm typing on. Most of them I can't, though. 21:39:51 Ilari: actually it might be simpler to emulate a universal, but simple TM with a grammar than to try and add restrictions to get it down to EXPSPACE? 21:40:04 assuming you want grammars 21:40:59 it's not a given less-than-turing-complete is easier to _define_, after all 21:41:15 Ah, Language of all first-order statements about real numbers using only addition (no multiplication). 21:41:57 Not quite as satisfyingly simple as a^n b^n c^n, is it. 21:42:02 Also comparision... 21:42:43 Ilari: hm what about simply a^nb^f(n) where f is something awful to calculate? 21:43:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:43:31 Sgeo: what is the in-AW nature of the AWsistor? 21:44:02 "in-AW nature"? 21:44:28 What *are* they? 21:45:01 Oh, not in terms of N-Signals, but what they really are in AW? 21:45:14 YEs. 21:45:18 s/E/e/ 21:46:35 There are 4 triggers in action lines in AW (actually, there are more, but only 2 are relevant): create, which is what happens when an object becomes visible, activate, which is what to do when clicked, bump, for when bumped, and adone, for when an animation on an object is finished playing 21:47:05 A(n,n) could do the trick? 21:47:07 Animations are defined with the animate command, which, among other things, lets you specify a name and an amount of time 21:47:33 If I wanted, say, an animate on an object that lasts 5 seconds: 21:47:40 create animate me . 1 1 5000 21:47:48 For the uninitiated... what is "AW"? 21:47:53 The me is a special keyword referring to this object 21:48:00 cpressey, Active Worlds, a virtual environment 21:48:05 Ah. Thanks. 21:48:33 The astart command starts an animation 21:48:37 astop stops an animation 21:49:10 create animate me . 1 1 5000, astart; adone say "Hi!", astart next 21:49:23 create name next, animate me . 1 1 5000; adone say "Done!" 21:49:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:49:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:49:52 astarts can also specify that the animation loops 21:50:04 Sgeo, that doesn't answer Phantom_Hoover's question yet? 21:50:14 It.. almost does 21:50:16 ah 21:50:18 * AnMaster waits 21:50:22 I understand that they're objects. 21:50:53 Wait, what else is there to understand? 21:51:02 The animate command can also specify a different object 21:51:12 Ilari: the tricky thing here is that it would have to be superlinear to check a^n b^f(n) _even_ though it's longer than f(n). i'm doubtful that A(n,n) qualifies. 21:52:43 it takes a long time to compute compared to n, but not necessarily compared to A(n,n) 21:52:59 "An example of an EXPSPACE-complete problem is the problem of recognizing whether two regular expressions represent different languages, where the expressions are limited to four operators: union, concatenation, the Kleene star (zero or more copies of an expression), and squaring (two copies of an expression)." -- wikipedia 21:53:11 If I had time to think about it, that might give me ideas. 21:53:36 create sign "On"; activate animate test . 1 1 0; 21:53:50 create sign "Off"; activate animate test . 1 1 10000000000 21:53:52 Is it worth it to create a /home partition? 21:54:05 create name test, sign "Test"; activate astart 21:54:13 erm 21:54:27 create name test, sign "Test"; activate astart; adone say "This object was on" 21:55:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 21:55:52 cpressey: actually that gives a simple solution, just let the language consist of strings of the form RE_1,RE_2 where RE_1 RE_2 are/alternatively aren't representing the same language 21:56:36 Sgeo, how does this become a gate though? 21:56:46 oerjan: Yes, there ya go. 21:56:46 Phantom_Hoover: I could answer that, but you quit 21:57:32 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:57:42 AnMaster, hm? You want an example? I haven't exactly built an example yet 21:58:13 But I might say, animate-duration-0 on 0 and duration-large on 1 is a "0", and duration-0 on 1 and large on 0 is a "1" 21:58:16 Sgeo, no, not an example of your gate. Just of an actual transistor 21:59:02 And an astart tells it to process (originally thought it would be occasionally false edge, but that's not needed I think) 21:59:27 what 21:59:30 you completely lost me 21:59:34 AnMaster, did I say I built a transistor yet? Also, from a logical standpoint, what's the difference betweeen a transistor and an AND gate? 22:00:00 Sgeo, um. quite a bit? 22:00:25 Care to explain? 22:00:28 Sgeo, a transistor isn't digital 22:01:00 Hm, I don't think I need transistors 22:01:00 it will be a gradual scale from completely closed to completely open 22:04:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:05:54 AnMaster, sorry; I got tired of the live CD> 22:06:17 LiveCD of what? 22:06:49 64-bit Ubuntu. Long stor.y 22:07:57 Phantom_Hoover, mhm 22:08:13 Phantom_Hoover, I use separate /home on lvm2 22:08:23 would make migrating easier to have separate /home 22:08:41 and lvm2 means you can grow partitions as required 22:08:44 AnMaster, yep. 22:08:46 most space on my disk is unallocated 22:10:23 It just occured to me that it would be absurd to, say, make a computer with 4GB of memory 22:10:32 Suppose a viewer didn't HAVE 4gb? 22:11:04 Heck, it's a lot of memory to store a component that stores _1 bit) 22:11:05 _ 22:11:11 It's not possible to change the size of the / partition, is it? 22:11:44 Phantom_Hoover, sure it is if you put it on lvm 22:11:49 shrinking is trickier 22:11:52 depends on FS 22:11:59 ext3. 22:12:02 Phantom_Hoover, many fs, like ext3, xfs and so on can grow on the fly 22:12:08 think ext3 can grow on the fly too 22:12:13 no idea about shrinking 22:12:17 Shrinking it is, presumably, black magic. 22:12:23 no fs I know can shrink while mounted 22:12:31 Phantom_Hoover, you shouldn't need to shrink though 22:12:41 you make partitions small to begin with 22:12:47 AnMaster, my entire disc is partitioned. 22:12:56 Phantom_Hoover, for example I started with 25 GB /home, then I grew it to 50 GB a few weeks ago 22:13:02 When I installed Ubuntu, I was young and naïve. 22:13:02 while downloading something 22:13:40 Phantom_Hoover, seems resize2fs can " -M Shrink the filesystem to the minimum size." 22:13:44 probably not while mounted 22:13:54 Phantom_Hoover, no idea if it tried to reallocate stuff on disk for that or not 22:14:12 If I boot the live CD, can I use their partition editor to shrink it? 22:14:12 Phantom_Hoover, I would use gparted 22:14:26 Phantom_Hoover, I don't know, why not boot and check 22:14:29 Yes, that is what I was planning. 22:14:38 Phantom_Hoover, I tend to use gparted on systemrescuecd 22:14:54 it has all the tools required for everything that can be done 22:15:06 Phantom_Hoover, I don't know if the ubuntu livecd have all the tools installed 22:15:18 Phantom_Hoover, also, upgrade to ext4 or switch to jfs or such 22:15:25 but don't stay on ext3 22:15:30 I can do these things, probably. 22:15:50 Wait, I'll use qwebirc from the live CD. Bye for now. 22:15:53 well google for how to convert, ext4 wiki at kernel.org is probably a good source 22:15:56 Phantom_Hoover, cya 22:15:59 going to sleep shortly 22:17:44 There's a whole wiki for ext4? 22:18:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 22:18:34 Back. 22:18:59 OK, the live CD has GParted. 22:19:23 And I can shrink my root partition. 22:19:43 AnMaster: I believe there's some sort of preliminary also-shrink online-resizing for btrfs, but you need to be pretty brave to trust that. 22:20:07 OK, so I presume that I simply shrink sda5, then stick another partition in the freed space? 22:20:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:20:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 22:21:04 Assuming you're using a filesystem-aware shrinking tool, sure. 22:21:28 fizzie: it's GParted shrinking ext3. 22:21:45 That sounds sensible. 22:22:00 "Online resizing (including shrinking)" in btrfs-0.10 already back in Jan 15, 2008. 22:22:15 Can I just leave the partitions taking up all of the disc? 22:22:20 (Unless they've thrown away the feature.) 22:24:37 Is it possible to get an internship after graduation? 22:24:44 fizzie, um. does brtfs support defrag too? 22:24:46 Or do most internships mandate that you're a student? 22:24:55 Phantom_Hoover, yes let lvm2 fill the rest 22:24:57 You know, screw this. 22:24:58 AnMaster: Yes, there's online defragging in it. 22:25:02 Phantom_Hoover, then you allocate at runtime from it! 22:25:16 AnMaster: my partition table is horrible. 22:25:22 fizzie, cool. I selected ext4 because they said "soon" 22:25:38 Phantom_Hoover, mine used to be. lvm2 lives on a physical partition of yours 22:25:39 that's all 22:26:01 fizzie, I'm still waiting 22:26:16 There's some Windows stuff jammed at the start, then a huge, 120something GB block of Ubuntu's space, then some swap at the end. 22:27:56 Sgeo: You don't explicitly have to be a student to get an internship, but that's the assumption. 22:28:07 :/ 22:28:18 Sgeo: The only case where you'd commonly get one as a non-student is if you're between graduating from one school and enrolling in another. 22:28:31 AnMaster: Heh. Well, btrfs is not in 1.0 yet either, and I don't think they have a real schedule, though I guess they haven't made a backwards-incompatible on-disk-format change in ~1.5 years now. 22:28:53 I guess I should hurry up and look for an internship soon then 22:31:55 I *finally* let Ubuntu run fsck, then GParted insists on doing it again. 22:31:57 Grrr. 22:32:19 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 22:33:06 fizzie, hah 22:33:16 fizzie, I wait for it to become frozen 22:33:22 fizzie, meanwhile I use xfs or jfs 22:33:31 jfs can't do online defrag either but it is a good fs still 22:33:47 fizzie, might switch to brtfs when it becomes stable if it is good 22:34:32 They say it is, but no personal experiences. 22:34:58 I'm just running some boring ext4 filesystems. 22:35:18 fizzie, that + jfs for me 22:35:29 oh and xfs 22:36:20 fizzie, is there a way to defrag lvm volumes? I suspect they are fragmented from growing nowdays. Big chunks (25 GB in a stretch or such) but still 22:38:14 You could check the block mappings to see if they are; it's one of the verbosity flags. I'm not sure if fragmentation matters so much there, since the blocks are still pretty large. (Of course I have no clue if complicated mappings cause some problems.) 22:39:20 hm 22:39:31 fizzie, block mappings with lvs? pvs? vgs? 22:39:42 or which tool? 22:40:14 * Sgeo wonders if 7 addressible bytes of memory and 7 instructions are too few for an 8-bit system 22:40:47 lvdisplay --maps 22:40:47 ... 22:41:20 It would mean I'd need pretty much NO gates to say, determine which piece of hardware in the CPU a particular instruction refers to 22:42:15 Why does it need to be 8-bit? 22:42:30 It doesn't 22:43:04 Then why did you say "8-bit"? 22:43:17 fizzie, seems /home is split 22:43:39 fizzie, so how would one defrag it? 22:43:43 Well, the busses would have.. I don't know 22:43:44 If you have a lot of spare space, you can possibly manually rearrange things with pvmove, though I'm not sure if it bothers to "move" extents from one physical volume to the same. (But if it does, you can tell it to move only the extents of a single LV, and they'd probably end up as a contiguous region after that. 22:44:05 At least if you specify --alloc contiguous too. 22:44:10 array 1 6 0 wz--n- 927,32g 579,32g 22:44:14 fizzie, yes I have a lot free 22:44:20 the last column is free 22:44:23 from vgs output 22:44:29 the one before is total 22:44:34 A single split is possibly not very troublesome. 22:45:16 Seems tha Bisqwit has written some sort of script, http://bisqwit.iki.fi/source/lvm2defrag.html 22:46:01 fizzie, is "Bisqwit" someone you know of? 22:46:44 Not personally, but I know the name; doesn't he do tool-assisted NES speedruns or something like that? 22:46:56 I got filesystem corruption when I ran that script. 22:46:58 And yes, he is. 22:47:07 fizzie, if you had said "kernel developer" I would have trusted it more 22:47:12 pikhq, okay not going to use it then 22:47:24 AnMaster: All of LVM is userspace. 22:47:30 pikhq, well okay 22:47:36 pikhq, "lvm developer"? 22:47:46 that would would have made it sound a lot safer 22:48:40 It seems to generate a commands.sh file to run, so you can make sure it's not doing anything strange. 22:48:42 also ugh at php 22:49:04 Yes, that's pretty strange language to choose. 22:49:13 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 22:49:28 What PHP? 22:49:30 Of the tataism... 22:49:53 AnMaster: Oh, he's also done the Finnish fan-translation of Chrono Trigger. :p 22:50:05 fizzie: Who? 22:50:12 ehirdiphone! 22:50:13 ehirdiphone: Bisqwit. 22:50:14 on a tuesday! 22:50:16 my word! 22:50:23 fizzie, okay not something relevant to this program though 22:50:26 fizzie: Reminds me of an advert. 22:50:27 plus what pikhq said. nah 22:50:33 augur: Smuggled. 22:50:37 nice 22:51:12 ehirdiphone: do you ever, as a result of IRC tab completes, get into the habit of trying to tab-complete your sentences? as if your computer should know what you're trying to say... 22:52:22 augur: I just think loudly at my computer and it picks it up and writes what I'm thinking. 22:52:39 XD 22:52:47 i keep trying to tab complete my thoughts 22:52:51 its really frustrating 22:52:59 It's an iProduct user! 22:53:02 its like a part of me isnt there 22:53:09 like i was born wrong 22:53:14 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:53:34 i keep trying to tab complete my thoughts <-- never happened to me 22:53:36 clearly, i'm a pre-op transhuman, but that goes without saying 22:53:44 augur, pre-op? 22:53:45 AnMaster: you need to have thoughts first 22:53:46 ooooh burn 22:53:48 yeah, you know 22:53:53 pre-op. pre-operation. 22:54:08 the operation that'll implant the cybernetics 22:54:10 ah 22:54:14 beep boop 22:56:38 "Pre-op transhuman" is an awesome expression :P 22:56:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:03:05 Gregor-W: :) 23:03:28 it doesnt hurt that some of my friends, and definitely some of my love interests, are pre-op transboys 23:04:30 I'm postop subhuman 23:04:45 I lurve neuron inhibitors 23:05:26 Joking, I'm actually mid-op human. 23:06:08 btw, the human visualisation system sucks 23:06:20 view an image w colour in your head. Sni 23:06:25 Animate it 23:06:36 Where is it? Oops, it disappeared. 23:07:51 augur: if you're trying to tab complete your thoughts you know what you Want to think. And thud have already thought it. 23:07:55 *want 23:08:00 *thus 23:08:18 ehirdiphone: i can animat color images in my head :| 23:08:28 yes 23:08:41 then try and figure out where the picture is 23:08:43 also, i mean tab complete the externalization of those thoughts 23:08:45 it crashes 23:08:48 uh 23:08:49 no it doesnt 23:08:57 Yes it does :P 23:09:00 i can put that picture wherever i want 23:09:04 it does for you maybe 23:09:11 In front of things??? 23:09:12 but as you said, you're a mid-op subhuman! 23:09:14 sure! 23:09:16 why not? 23:09:21 Obscure your computer. 23:09:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed). 23:09:32 augur: Mid op HUMAN 23:09:38 oh sorry 23:09:42 Or post op SUBHUMAN 23:09:44 :| 23:10:02 well it cant obscure the computer, due to overriding effects from the eyes 23:10:23 Also the sound synthesising system sucks. Everything sounds distant. 23:10:30 give me about 750mg of DXM and i can at the very least get full closed eyed visuals 23:10:53 augur: But it never seems to be actually there! 23:11:02 It's always somehow offcamera. 23:11:03 well, not without drugs, usually, no 23:11:10 xD 23:11:12 its on camera for me, just not 23:11:17 not very salient 23:11:18 yeah 23:11:26 but thats sensible; its very weak compared to the real world 23:11:29 the world is bright and loud 23:11:30 Just not is keyword 23:11:35 augur: exactly 23:11:42 flaw in sapiensOS 23:11:42 but that doesnt mean its off camera! 23:11:47 its just drowned out! 23:11:54 probably not a flaw, there, buddy :P 23:12:06 it'd be a bit problematic if you were hallucinating your imagination all the time 23:12:19 sapiensOS also lacks extension capability eg for virtual reality 23:12:24 no it doesnt 23:12:28 augur: User controlled intensity 23:12:29 the extension is just illegal. 23:12:49 you have to break the law to use those mods 23:12:53 its much like an iPhone 23:13:12 augur: Drugs don't let me program my own VR where I have 70 heads and 30 lightbulbs for genitals 23:13:19 heh 23:13:24 They just spontaneously give me that. 23:13:24 you're taking the wrong drugs then ;) 23:13:38 There's a difference :P 23:13:59 augur: i.e. none :P 23:14:39 pikhq€ 23:14:44 pikhq ¥¥¥¥ 23:14:51 €$¥• 23:15:23 augur: Reading my brains source code would be rad 23:15:44 with the unused evolutionary crud eluded 23:15:49 *elided 23:15:58 http://genome.ucsc.edu/ 23:16:10 oh, unused, well. we dont know whats used and what isnt. so. 23:16:19 that's not even neuron data 23:16:28 nope! 23:16:44 that's the machine code for a proprietary computer that creates a similar program to mine 23:16:48 i like to imagine that DNA is sort of like a ZIP file 23:16:55 in just an unreadable format 23:17:10 augur: more like code for a replicator. 23:17:16 it encodes the means by which you can build the actual stuff 23:17:22 not just a replicator tho, right 23:17:34 It's a makefile :P 23:17:45 its code for how those replicators replicate and interact to form a larger machine 23:18:02 self organizing transistors 23:18:07 Ie a bigger replicator 23:18:14 *i.e. 23:18:18 Anyway! 23:18:20 indeed 23:18:22 anyway 23:18:26 im off to watch doctor who 23:18:27 byeee 23:18:36 Sheesh 23:18:41 Just abandon me 23:18:42 what? 23:18:46 :'((( 23:18:46 oh im not abandoning 23:18:48 :P 23:18:49 im just saying bye 23:18:52 and dumping you in a ditch 23:18:53 wat 23:19:00 ic 23:19:25 augur: IS DR WHO MORE INTRRESTING THAN ME 23:19:26 Boffo. 23:19:28 (yes) 23:19:34 *INTERESTING 23:19:36 yes. 23:19:38 *DOCTOR 23:19:44 first doctor! 23:19:45 cpressey: hi 23:19:48 Dr. Who > * 23:19:58 cpressey: *Doctor 23:20:07 Whooooo doctor who 23:20:11 Doctor whooooo 23:20:16 The tardis! 23:20:21 Doctor whoooooooo 23:20:24 ehird, design a tail-recursive algorithm for swapping out arbitrary elements of a cons tree 23:20:24 Doctor who 23:20:31 Doctor whoooah 23:20:35 Doctor who 23:20:43 actually sorry 23:20:54 Nice video for that song, if you get a chance to see it 23:21:02 design a tail recursive set of operations which, when used in one sequence or other, lets you swap out an arbitrary element of a cons tree 23:21:03 Not here. 23:21:18 augur: No. 23:21:22 oh fine 23:21:23 lamer 23:21:27 :) 23:21:54 Since I did not make my feeling clear last time: 23:22:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:22:48 ST:TOS => entertaining; ST:TNG => entertaining; ST:DS9 => dull knock-off of B5 (which was also dull); ST:V => borderline unwatchable drivel; ST:V after 7 of 9 => fully unwatchable drivel 23:23:04 hey, B5 was awesome 23:23:08 shut your face 23:23:11 ToS I can't watch. Dunno why. 23:23:21 DS9 is so unimaginably boring. 23:23:28 TNG is fun. 23:23:44 cpressey: Mind, VOY was fun. Just not intentionally. 23:24:00 Also, moar fan of service lol 23:24:05 *liek 23:24:18 ? 23:24:19 *TOS 23:24:26 7/9 23:24:36 Moar like Fan/Service. 23:24:41 *liek 23:24:47 I think I like VOY 23:24:54 Then again, I haven't watched a lot of it 23:25:06 I've heard "26 of D" before on tvtropes. 23:25:10 IIRC 23:25:39 The great part of voyager is that everyones crazy apart from Dr. Asshole 23:26:04 cpressey: I'm — shock, horror! — making a MY-OS-RELATED COMPROMISE! 23:26:21 How is EMH an asshole? 23:26:26 Doctor Who trumps any and all of these a hundredfold, though. TOS, anyway, if you can call it that. 23:26:37 Sgeo: Watch the earlier episodes. 23:26:38 I know the actor plays someone who started out as a bit of a prick in the Stargate franchise 23:26:40 ehirdiphone: Indeed? 23:26:55 He's a gigantic prick to everyone :P And it's awesome. 23:27:14 cpressey: Doctor Who isn't really scifi anyway. 23:27:24 More like arbitrary plot device fantasy. 23:27:39 cpressey: Indeed; a compromise! 23:28:12 ehirdiphone: Do tell, or don't. 23:28:39 cpressey: Aye, I'll do. 23:29:07 I just decided to make something slightly more conventional beforehand :P 23:29:24 Basically, Plan 9 turned up to 11. Plan 11. 23:29:43 ehirdiphone: No smiley exists that adequately conveys my reaction to that. 23:30:00 Drivers are just userspace daemons serving device files from raw hardware devices. 23:30:16 cpressey: Good, bad? Horror; shock? 23:30:24 ... 23:30:30 Meanwhile, Gregor, AnMaster, and I are creating the Ultimate Unix. 23:30:33 Pickled beets? 23:30:35 Sounds bad. 23:30:42 pikhq: AnMaster? Hah. 23:30:48 It shall be Unix. And in userland. On all OSes. 23:30:50 Bwahahah! 23:30:58 Couldnt unix his way out of a paper bag. 23:31:01 Same ABI. 23:31:08 pikhq: That was my idea ... 23:31:38 cpressey: wat. 23:31:41 I suppose I shall be one of the dwindling number of anti-Unix luddite holdouts, still thinking about the Lisp machines. We'll see. 23:31:52 cpressey: No. Me too! 23:32:03 Er, Plan 9 is unix in my book. 23:32:08 You see, plan 9 took unix and turned it into STUFF. 23:32:14 Small-u unix, but unix still. 23:32:21 You gotta look closer. 23:32:39 I too was skeptical. And it's not ideal: but very very good. 23:33:08 cpressey: Lisp machines aren't so pure. They used byte based file systems to store stuff. 23:33:28 Not even in a pure, abstract way like plan 9. 23:33:53 cpressey: Yes, but Plan 9 is the Unix done ideally. 23:33:59 Well. 23:34:01 Nearly. 23:34:28 The Unix 23:34:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:34:55 cpressey: The process nanespaces change EVERYTHING 23:35:07 / differs from process to process 23:35:13 It's a namespace 23:35:15 -!- augur has joined. 23:35:22 "Thinking about" does not mean replicating, but whatever. 23:35:41 ehirdiphone, I have managed to interest multiple people here in AW stuff 23:35:49 The window manager starts it's windows with a namespace where the raw /dev/screen points to the WM 23:35:53 Well, not interest per se, but it's been talked about 23:36:00 Which then blits it to a window. 23:36:06 That's elegant. 23:36:17 ehirdiphone: In Plan 9, how do I, a process, send a message to another process? 23:36:19 Sgeo: Not really. I read. 23:37:05 cpressey: You tend to communicate with abstract devices instead. But /dev/prog/ and /proc/N/. 23:37:13 Latter moreso. 23:37:21 Dunno if I've seen the former. 23:37:40 But almost universally the interface is abstract and generic. 23:38:13 *na 23:38:21 *namespaces 23:38:27 (ancient typo) 23:39:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 23:40:07 Anyway that way that the wm works automatically means you can run any process instead of a wm just fine and also that the WM nests perfectly. 23:40:32 It just splits it's own /dev/screen up for it's children, basically. 23:40:41 *its *its 23:40:42 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:41:04 and keyboard mouse device files ofc 23:41:22 Cute trick. 23:41:40 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:41:49 Trick? Underlying philosophy. 23:42:11 There is only one obviously correct way to manage windows on plan 9; that is it. 23:42:29 Cute underlying philosophy, then. 23:42:40 Try that without per-process namespaces! 23:43:30 cpressey: Also, say you are connected to a machine A. 23:43:49 You want to run a machine A program with the graphics on your screen. 23:44:39 You do, basically, connect to your computer from A then "bind /net/mybox/dev/screen /dev/screen". 23:45:12 Run the program; it appears where you ran those commands (using that windows screen device) 23:45:33 Same thing for kbd and mouse ofc 23:45:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:45:47 *You, basically, 23:46:06 I should be impressed. 23:46:45 Well, it's X11 forwarding in zero lines of code. Gotta be doing something right. 23:48:29 cpressey: I'm as much an antiunix zealot as yesterday 23:48:50 I've always liked plan 9. 23:50:01 I used to like Plan 9 but now it irritates me. 23:50:10 I'm letting my feelings get in the way, obviously. 23:56:32 Sorry to be so negative. 23:56:43 Not sure what else to do. 23:57:21 No real plan to design my own OS. Only pipe dreams, for no purpose, that will never materialize. 23:57:51 ehirdiphone, we could just have a module called plan9 alongside the posix one 23:57:56 no problem 23:57:58 quite feasible 23:58:01 *shrug* 23:58:06 pikhq, ^ 23:58:15 ehirdiphone, but I assume you implement it :P 23:58:23 AnMaster: no you couldn't 23:58:30 ehirdiphone, um. same API. 23:58:39 ... Fail. 23:58:42 So hard. 23:58:57 ehirdiphone, of course you would have to do the process stuff too. But that goes into the API 23:59:09 "rom the Earth perspective, Martian software is just another strange, mutually incompatible doohickey. Welcome aboard! Alas, our mudball is already ornamented with many such curios. They stick quite well." 23:59:12 I assume we would do some such emulation anyway for posix on win32 23:59:14 *"From 23:59:19 far from all, but some