2010-06-01: 00:00:32 There's a log of everyone who's walked off the edge of the world 00:00:36 I'm emailing it to myse 00:00:37 f 00:00:48 oh that sucicide 00:00:50 that's only temporary 00:00:52 *suicide 00:01:12 night 00:01:14 The first suicide was Tue Apr 19 00:43:48 1994 PDT 00:01:17 Night AnMaster 00:01:22 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:01:28 The last was... this month 00:01:43 Ok, Alec is addicted to walking off the edge of the world 00:01:53 xD 00:02:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: What's beyond this edge... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA). 00:02:33 http://pastie.org/986515 00:04:10 Just sent em a mail 00:04:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:04:44 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:06:01 http://pastie.org/986517 00:06:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:06:20 -!- cheater99 has joined. 00:07:10 -!- uorygl has joined. 00:09:44 * Sgeo_ decides it's a good thing he didn't try 'I want to leave LambdaMOO for three months' with quotes 00:11:15 I'm going to do something unprecedented. 00:11:23 Anyone want to help me code this music daemon? 00:11:44 -!- Oranjer1 has left (?). 00:12:26 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:12:46 -!- uorygl has joined. 00:14:30 -!- uorygl has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:14:34 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:15:21 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 00:16:44 You step into the great gap to the west, your eyes shut tight. When you open them, you're back in the Real World again. Enjoy it. 00:17:16 what 00:17:22 did you suicide :P 00:17:59 No, just read the source 00:18:20 -!- uorygl has joined. 00:18:40 I should be able to make a simulation 00:19:56 If you don't delete your mail, you can't walk off the edge 00:21:09 lol 00:22:53 Awesome. There is a pistol for Russian Roulette 00:23:03 Shooting it can newt you for 1-6 days 00:29:52 pikhq_: how likely do you think it is for a track title to have a tab in it? 00:31:05 alise: Not particularly. 00:31:41 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:31:58 pikhq_: Hmm... but if I'm supporting arbitrary Vorbis* metadata... 00:32:02 *Yes, it's actually Vorbis-specific. 00:32:06 So much for the Ogg container. 00:33:17 -!- uorygl has joined. 00:33:31 pikhq_: Oh, I know! I'll use XML! 00:33:39 alise: I thought that metadata was stuck in an Ogg Text stream? 00:33:45 *ugh* 00:33:57 Apparently not 00:34:03 Also, now I have two problems! (I'm not actually using XML) 00:34:36 pikhq_: Also, although FLAC files work inside an Ogg container, very little software supports this, and FLAC has its own metadata format! This is because FLAC wasn't always a Xiph.Org project!~ 00:34:42 FUN FUN FUCK ME IN THE ASS! 00:34:45 I hate software 00:34:58 alise: So: Ogg sucks. 00:35:09 Yep. It's a container that... just contains. Literally. Nothing else. 00:35:22 Urgh; that's such a pain. 00:35:37 And if only Matroska didn't have an obsession with XML. 00:35:55 Vorbis metadata, called Vorbis comments, support metadata tags similar to those implemented in the ID3 standard for MP3. The metadata is stored in a vector of eight-bit-clean strings of arbitrary length and size. The size of the vector and the size of each string in bytes is limited to 232-1 (about 4.3 billion, or any positive integer that can be expressed in 32 bits). This vector is stored in the second header packet that begins a Vorbis bitstream.[43] 00:36:04 MY GOD, LIMITED TO 4.3 BILLION BYTES. 00:36:27 pikhq_: I didn't know Matroshka used XML. It's always worked well for me. 00:36:36 We should all use Matroshka. 00:36:58 Actually, this makes me wonder why there aren't any good standardised command-with-binary-arguments specs. 00:37:01 What about WebM? 00:37:03 ASN.1 does that doesn't it? Ew. 00:37:10 Sgeo_: no. 00:37:22 it only contains vp8 and vorbis. and is a sideset of matroshka 00:37:27 it's an insane subset of matroshka, with its own shit! yay! 00:37:32 I AM SO HAPPY. 00:37:45 alise: It's some binary XML... Thing. 00:39:23 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:39:47 x := ! "\1";; msg := x {"\1" x}+ "\r\n";; 00:39:57 xs should be preprocessed afterwards 00:40:00 to replace: 00:40:08 \2\2 with a \1 00:40:12 and \2\3 with a \2 00:40:14 Tada. 00:40:19 -!- uorygl has joined. 00:41:59 Although \2 is kind of ugly. 00:42:06 But then \255 is more common, isn't it? 00:42:09 UTF-8 and all. 00:42:22 pikhq_: I'd just use \0, but ... C. 00:43:10 "The IPC protocol is best documented in the source. But we encourage all developers to use the clientlib, is there something that the clientlib doesn't support or you don't like. Talk to us first before you start reversing our protocol." 00:43:13 Who needs documentation. 00:48:05 pikhq_: PUKE! xmms2 uses glib! 00:48:14 I think I died. I'm outside the Pearly Gates 00:48:41 It is my DUTY to create something betts! 00:48:46 *better than this 00:50:51 Happy June! 00:50:56 Or something! 00:54:37 -!- calamari has joined. 00:54:38 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:56:14 -!- uorygl has joined. 00:57:27 uorygl, join LambdaMOO 00:57:40 Hmm, it seems that I am in need of a tag-processing library. 00:57:42 Call it graffiti. 00:58:12 We could make an esotericers's hangout 00:58:17 A BF machine 01:01:45 alise: glib! AAARGHTHATMUSTDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIE 01:01:46 ALSODIE 01:02:09 pikhq_: Don't you like the soft feeling of a GObject class with all its furry little fields? 01:02:20 And those in-code declarations of it... aren't they wonderful?... 01:02:28 Okay, so it doesn't actually seem to define classes itself. But still! 01:02:41 Aand immediate problem reached; build systems suck. 01:02:44 alise: Oh the boilerplate! 01:03:03 And yes, build systems are universally awful. 01:03:17 SCons is definitely waful... 01:03:25 -!- cheater99 has joined. 01:03:28 CMake is most definitely awful... Oh, what's that one I'm thinking of... 01:03:29 *awful 01:03:36 That makepp thing is probably awful... 01:03:37 *Autotools*. 01:04:01 pikhq_: NO. 01:04:08 Please suffer. 01:04:16 I will not use Autotools. 01:04:31 pikhq_: Or was that not a suggestion? 01:07:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:07:22 *Autotools*. 01:07:22 pikhq_: NO. 01:07:23 Please suffer. 01:07:23 I will not use Autotools. 01:07:23 pikhq_: Or was that not a suggestion? 01:08:59 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:09:02 Well, Waf looks alright: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waf 01:09:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:10:07 -!- uorygl has joined. 01:11:30 alise: That was an example of a truly awful build system. 01:11:36 Yes. 01:11:39 I think I'll just use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waf 01:11:46 I've seen others use it and the example looks not-abhorrent 01:12:20 pikhq: Also, no dependencies, in that it's a single file that only depends on Python that you include with your distribution. 01:12:22 So, yay? 01:12:57 alise: I get the feeling that a package maintainer will develop hatred for that. 01:13:07 pikhq: You don't edit that. 01:13:09 You edit the wscript file. 01:13:15 Not because Waf itself is abhorrent but becaust some idiot *will* invariably edit it and make it abhorrent. 01:13:22 *because 01:13:31 pikhq: You mean... someone will edit... the bundled waf? 01:13:38 pikhq: Well fuck, I'm not going to do that. 01:13:43 I'd have to be retarded to do that. 01:14:00 But anyway, it automatically does out-of-tree builds and seems to be structured well, so ++ 01:14:41 uorygl, login? 01:14:42 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:14:55 -!- mibygl has joined. 01:15:02 Sgeo_: I'm afraid I'm currently a bit jaded from nomics and their brethren for the moment. Ask again tomorrow. 01:15:14 def set_options(ctx): 01:15:14 ctx.add_option('--foo', action='store', default=False, help='Silly test') 01:15:14 def configure(ctx): 01:15:14 print('→ the value of foo is %r' % Options.options.foo) 01:15:16 How... sane. 01:15:24 mibygl: Jaded? Why? and MOOs are hardly nomics. 01:15:33 * alise checks Agora to investigate possible reasons 01:15:35 -!- uorygl has joined. 01:15:47 I've barely looked at Agora in a longish time. 01:16:09 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:16:19 I discovered them... a while ago, and it seems like they've never gone in the direction I've wanted them to. 01:16:25 So, jading. 01:18:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:18:48 pikhq_: As a sysadmin, can you answer?: What do people have against using globs for c files in build systems? 01:18:54 C files aren't just going to magically appear there. 01:19:40 alise: No clue. 01:20:03 It's perfectly acceptable to sysadmins for such a glob to be there. 01:20:12 source = bld.path.ant_glob('**/*.c'), 01:20:18 I hope that 'ant' doesn't mean "ant build system". 01:20:23 Although I don't know why I hope that, as it's just a globbing function. 01:22:33 alise hello 01:22:36 * cheater99 waves 01:23:17 hello. 01:23:28 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:23:55 how r u? 01:24:04 Irritated. 01:24:13 Absolutely irritated. 01:24:47 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:25:35 not you 01:25:40 i don't care about you pikhq 01:25:43 i was asking alise 01:27:57 ok seriously shut up 01:28:12 :P 01:40:34 -!- CakeProp1et has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 01:42:34 pikhq: Okay, waf is starting to annoy me. XD 01:43:01 [The bad part of alise's brain pipes up. "Surely it can't be so hard? It's only one file for waf... so why not write... your own?"] 01:45:01 "This explanation is pretty boring so I'm going to spice it up with inappropriate swearing. 01:45:01 A mother fucking sinkhole like this bitch is formed by the gradual dissolution of punk ass subsurface rock (usually rock such as limestone or mother fucking carbonate rock) by circulating ground water. As the rock dissolves, big ass spaces and slutty caverns develop underground until only a bitch thin layer of support remains on top. At one shit-wank point that fucking layer also collapses revealing the years of titty fucking erosion beneath, and often an un 01:45:01 derground skank river far below. 01:45:01 Here's a mother fucking diagram." 01:45:42 XD 01:55:40 OKAY #WAF IS DEAD THIS IRRITATES ME. 01:55:43 pikhq: Suggest me a build system 01:56:41 alise: Make it a single C file. 01:57:11 pikhq: Like SQLite! 02:00:09 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:00:13 G O D! 02:00:29 I have all this shit written here and it's just BULLSHIT! Here's what I should have to write: 02:00:42 -!- sshc has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:01:38 build-root: build 02:01:38 c-program { 02:01:38 sources: **/*.c 02:01:38 target: belial 02:01:38 cflags: -Wall -Wextra 02:01:38 release { cflags: -O2 } 02:01:41 debug { cflags: -g } 02:01:42 } 02:03:35 pikhq: Please tell me to have the strength not to proliferate another build system. 02:04:03 alise: Have the strength to instead obsolete all languages that require nontrivial build systems. 02:04:19 pikhq: Oh, I've already that. But C is the best thing for this, unfortunately. 02:09:37 pikhq: But... it is a bad idea right? 02:10:15 alise, I made a simulation of the edge of the world 02:10:27 "It's not perfect... it will allow you to walk off even if you have mail 02:10:39 "Hm, MOO habits are starting to get to me 02:13:39 -!- Oranjer has joined. 02:24:16 pikhq: How queer; xmms always builds without optimisations. 02:24:24 In fact, it uses -O0 -g. 02:24:25 Always. 02:25:38 alise: That's... Awful. 02:26:46 pikhq: I think because it's "developmental software" etc. 02:27:27 I want LLVM to get a native -> IR disassembler so that it can optimize anything 02:27:46 What's wrong with -O0 -g? 02:27:53 Sgeo_: Slow and big. 02:28:07 "Any reason? 02:28:39 No optimisations done, debugging info. 02:28:41 Any questions? 02:28:53 you can at least strip it 02:29:46 Still big. 02:29:47 "I meant, why does it build with those options? 02:30:02 There's a lot of *ridiculously* simple stuff GCC doesn't do on -O0. 02:30:03 coppro: so what build system do YOU use. 02:30:06 Sgeo_: stop doing that " thing. 02:30:15 Sgeo_: and because they couldn't figure out how to make waf work either i guess :P 02:30:16 :wonders why it's angering alise 02:30:21 BECAUSE THIS IS IRC. 02:30:40 For instance, each and every memory access involves a load and a write. 02:30:41 alise: Whatever the project uses 02:30:43 The first time, it really was an accident 02:31:03 waf? 02:31:36 coppro: if you start a project? 02:32:58 alise: I usually build by hand to start since I want to avoid a build system as long as possible, and the project never gets to a point where I need one 02:33:11 ha 02:33:19 i'm only doing this first so it doesn't come back to bite me in the ass 02:33:41 maybe i will just use coadjute 02:33:42 Deewiant! 02:33:43 When I need one, I pick randomly whichever one seems least bad to me at the time, currently Scons 02:33:48 is that advisable? 02:33:53 coppro: scons is unmaintained basically 02:34:11 close, but not quite 02:34:24 It's also comparable with jabbing forks in the eye. 02:34:42 pikhq: Oh? 02:34:44 compared to what? CMake? 02:35:00 alise: Scons is not a build system. 02:35:10 It is a library with which one can write a build system. 02:35:22 I half agree 02:35:26 pikhq: indeed 02:35:34 And it's not even a good library. 02:35:45 I'm almost considering http://omake.metaprl.org/index.html now 02:35:51 It's a purely-functional language and 02:35:52 "Often, a configuration file is as simple as a single line 02:35:52 .DEFAULT: $(CProgram prog, foo bar baz) 02:35:52 which states that the program "prog" is built from the files foo.c, bar.c, and baz.c. This one line will also invoke the default standard library scripts for discovering implicit dependencies in C files (such as dependencies on included header files)." 02:35:54 is giving me false hope. 02:36:01 But seriously, Coadjute is ... good. 02:36:09 I just need assurance for Deewiant that it's good for C :P 02:36:15 it /is/ a library with which one can write a build system, but it also comes with sufficient defaults to be used only as a build system 02:36:19 "The identifying number associated with an object is unique to that object. It was assigned when the object was created and will never be reused, even if the object is destroyed. Thus, if we create an object and it is assigned the number `#1076', the next object to be created will be assigned `#1077', even if `#1076' is destroyed in the meantime." 02:36:24 That's misleading, kind of 02:36:32 ("With support for: [...] Haskell!") 02:36:34 sounds like SQL 02:37:06 Can someone explain Sgeo's cow obssession? 02:37:13 Sure, at a physical level, that's how it works, but in general, LambdaCore's @recycle actually transforms the object into garbage, which can be used by @create 02:37:20 So in reality, object IDs are reused 02:37:39 coppro: cow? 02:37:43 moo 02:37:49 lulz. 02:38:07 You know what this is bullshit, why do build systems suck 02:38:32 * Sgeo_ is saddened that he got it before alise did 02:38:57 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:38:58 why 02:39:46 this is so depressing 02:40:20 alise: because they have a ridiculous number of variables to cope with 02:40:29 Scons is an excellent example of the why 02:40:31 I JUST WANT TO BUILD A C PROGRAM. 02:40:47 then Scons will possibly do 02:40:54 so will CMake 02:40:56 or autotools 02:41:00 pikhq: Sysadmin! Why is scons shit for you? 02:41:05 coppro: haha have you ever used cmake 02:41:08 (or autotools) 02:41:24 alise: Yes. They are in fact capable of building things... not much else, though. 02:41:51 although really, the same could arguably said of Scons 02:42:15 cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment 02:42:31 and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other. 02:42:35 * coppro tries to work out what he's trying to say 02:42:43 me, you mean 02:42:46 yes 02:42:49 err, sorry, she 02:42:54 lol :P 02:42:58 I would also have accepted "it" 02:43:02 alise: It is *absolutely awful* to automate. Absolutely *awful*. 02:43:08 coppro: I was expecting "they're" 02:43:10 `addquote cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other. 02:43:11 erm 02:43:13 coppro: I was expecting "you're" 02:43:18 coppro: HackEgo is broken 02:43:23 alise: third person with /me 02:43:27 ok so explanation: 02:43:29 No output. 02:43:31 At the very least cmake and autotools can be scripted. 02:43:33 pikhq: Why? 02:43:39 (genuinely curious) 02:43:45 (a) nuclear powered waffle iron -- it's meant to build programs. Instead, it's a full-blown, shitty programming language 02:44:00 (b) Powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment -- EDITING CMAKELISTS.TXT MAKES ME WANT TO KILL THINGS 02:44:14 (c) and it burns ... -- it's really hard to get it to work and you have to hack it a ton. 02:44:34 coppro: There is no single way to say simple, simple things like "I want to use this compiler" or "I want to use these compiler flags". 02:44:53 pikhq: Ah, yeah. 02:45:01 You just have to *hope* that the bastard who used scons was so kind as to *write configuration logic*. 02:45:02 that bit's always dumbfounded me 02:45:11 on the plus side, the cache is epic 02:45:33 a guy at the place I used to work came up with the brilliant idea of hardlinking the cache, which makes it even more epic 02:45:34 That bit makes sysadmins WANT TO KILL YOU FLAY YOU AND PRESERVE THE SKIN AS WARNING TO OTHER DEVELOPERS. 02:45:38 It is THAT. FUCKING. BAD. 02:47:01 (seriously - no copying costs? YES PLEASE) 02:48:04 pikhq: What's best for you apart from autotools? 02:48:31 and the cache is an absolute godsend if you have generated headers included by everything 02:48:50 alise: Well-written makefile. 02:49:04 pikhq: Mm. 02:49:15 pikhq: It's just that for a *developer* that's the worst solution :-) 02:49:19 A poorly-written one makes me kill people. A well-written one means I hit make and all's well. 02:49:19 ...Second best? 02:49:33 I'm not sure. 02:49:41 A well-written makefile is usually pretty awesome, until you try to move outside its problem domain 02:49:56 "Autoscons - An Autotools replacement for SCons" 02:50:04 You just have to *hope* that the bastard who used make was so kind as to *write configuration logic*. 02:50:25 coppro: Except that's actually the default. 02:50:54 It takes *extra work* to make it not handle CFLAGS and CC. 02:51:22 gcc -Wall -Wextra foo.c main.c -o result ? 02:51:49 cat Makefile -- foo: foo.o bar.o 02:51:53 make -- builds it 02:52:03 make CC=... CFLAGS=... LDFLAGS=... CPPFLAGS=... -- builds it 02:52:48 coppro: Do you actually do that in make? 02:52:58 http://miller.emu.id.au/pmiller/software/cook/ This looks tempting. pikhq hates me now 02:53:08 Unless make uses lots of magic that I don't know about, you still need to write the Makefile to use those variables, which is not a lot of effort, but is still greater than 0 02:53:14 alise: cook? I recall nice things about it. 02:53:23 coppro: Make uses a lot of magic that you don't know about. 02:53:24 pikhq: Except that Nobody Has It :-) 02:53:30 coppro: default rules 02:53:33 alise: Yes, that's the only bad thing. :P 02:53:36 coppro: welcome to 80s 02:53:59 coppro: Write that as: result: foo.o main.o 02:54:04 ah, ok 02:54:17 so yeah, well-written then 02:57:53 Query: What is release/debug enum? Build type? Build kind? Something one-word. 02:58:08 I've heard variant 02:58:33 there was another term though 02:58:35 um... 02:59:47 alise: Anyways. When it comes down to build systems, the biggest thing is the ability to automatically configure nearly everything. This means accepting "CC" and "CFLAGS", making it easy to turn off configurable dependencies, etc. 02:59:57 The second biggest thing is *not being freaking broken*. 03:00:04 Note that integers and floating-point numbers are never equal to one another, even in the `obvious' cases. 03:00:06 I absolutely hate having to *rewrite* a build system. 03:00:10 I guess that saves some confusion 03:00:24 * pikhq still has nightmares from rewriting a Perl build-system to not be interactive 03:00:32 (said Perl build-system didn't work) 03:00:37 wtf 03:00:39 interactive? 03:00:46 Yes. *Interactive*. 03:01:10 This was for a package that included, in effect, its own OS. Because it was older than UNIX and later ported. 03:01:29 I still have nightmares. 03:01:34 and had a *Perl* build system? 03:01:39 Yes. 03:01:48 It's still maintained. 03:01:56 By idiots, but still maintained. 03:04:05 Name the perps. 03:04:09 IRAF. 03:04:22 Some university; don't recall who did it. 03:04:35 It was originally proprietary, made GPL later. 03:04:47 I've found that what's absolutely *worst* is proprietary software that gets an open release. 03:05:10 Proprietary software tends to suffer from truly massive NIH syndrome. 03:05:22 For instance, there's Second Life. 03:05:26 Conversely, the best in my experience is open-source stuff with significant corporate backying 03:05:27 *backing 03:05:28 Which includes its own copy of the STL. 03:05:31 (written poorly) 03:05:36 coppro: Also agreed. 03:06:06 Because they have every incentive to do it right. 03:06:41 I think MOO was inspired by Perl 03:06:51 {first, second, ?third = 0} = args; 03:06:58 However, that doesn't seem to do anything about GCC. 03:07:33 There is no excuse for its build system. 03:07:36 And Mozilla. 03:07:37 That's because it's run by people (a person?) who think(s) that all the corporate backers are trying to steal from them/him 03:07:38 *shudder* 03:07:40 Mozilla. 03:08:06 They recently approved C++ for use... can you say clusterfuck? 03:08:20 coppro: Most GNU stuff has painful code, but it's at least got a reasonably automatible build system. 03:08:27 GCC is the exception. 03:08:42 It works differently than everything else for no good reason. 03:09:26 (of course, if you look into the details, autotools is awful, but it's at least easy on the surface.) 03:09:32 FUCK THIS SHIT 03:09:41 alise: ? 03:09:42 KILL ME 03:09:45 the fact that it has to bootstrap itself pretty much tosses the idea of using any build system that exists in a normal fashion 03:09:48 FUCKING BUILD SYSTEMS 03:10:09 coppro: First: not really. Second: it doesn't have to bootstrap itself. 03:10:24 Fuckin' 3am, fuckin' have to get up at 9am, fuckin' A 03:10:30 6 hours of sleep 03:10:33 fuckin' AAAAA++++++ 03:10:35 it does if the compiler it's using isn't GCC-compatible, which any portable build system should assume is not the case 03:10:59 coppro: Still, it shouldn't be hard to at least make a *sane* build system for that. 03:11:08 that's true 03:11:20 fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfucikfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck 03:11:20 Even if it is custom, you can at least not make it incomprehensible. 03:11:28 Wow, that's a surprisingly low rate of fuckerrors. 03:11:34 Only one error; an "i". 03:11:48 I know it actually wouldn't be too much work with Scons. Autotools will cry if you try. Not enough experience with CMake to know. 03:12:32 alise: stop complaining about errors and go to sleep 03:12:33 Of course, GCC should build on targets that Python doesn't run on. 03:12:45 coppro: FUCK YOU I JUST WANT A BUILD SYSTEM :'( 03:13:01 pikhq: Does it really require Python now too? 03:13:03 * alise googles "build system that doesn't suck" out of desperation 03:13:07 "Waf: a pleasant build system" 03:13:10 HAHAHAHAHA 03:13:20 coppro: scons does. 03:13:31 WAF IS LIKE A GIGANTIC SANITY-VIOLATING COCK 03:13:31 ah, yeah :) 03:13:33 -!- coppro has left (?). 03:13:37 -!- coppro has joined. 03:13:49 alise: Sounds like you've become a sysadmin. 03:13:50 :P 03:13:56 let that go down in history as my official anti-endorsement 03:14:07 Or at least very very depressed. 03:14:09 "Makefile are not modular. Recursive Make is especially evil." 03:14:12 It should be "Makefiles". 03:14:14 You fail at grammar. 03:14:22 Not only are your opinions worthless, so is your English. 03:14:26 You should die in a fire now. 03:14:57 "The execution model just makes sense to me." 03:15:03 You dying JUST MAKES SENSE to me. Like, now. In a fire. 03:15:08 "Progress indication and colored output is built in, not an after thought. Like SCons, Waf build files are regular Python files." 03:15:13 Hooray, coloured fucking output 03:15:19 "Waf is fast. Faster than SCons." 03:15:24 Unlike your death which will be painfully slow 03:16:56 hahaha kill me 03:17:02 i must sleep soon, but first painful agonising death 03:17:44 we should make a fortunes database from alise 03:17:52 it's called `quote 03:18:11 also i'm usually not this funny, at least i think i'm being funny right now, mostly out of anger though 03:19:13 "Have you considered bakefiles? They work in the same way as cmake does, and I have seen them used in practice before. http://bakefile.sourceforge.net/" 03:19:18 STOP PUTTING A CONSONANT BEFORE "AKEFILE" 03:19:22 IT HAS STOPPED BEING AMUSING 03:19:23 a) `quote isn't working b) I can't do 'fortune alise' with quote 03:19:26 IN FACT, EVEN "AKEFILE" WOULD BE BETTER 03:19:37 Iakefile 03:19:42 alise: !AKEFILE? 03:19:48 (yes, that's a click) 03:19:49 Or perhaps "yourmotherhascancerandyourfatherdiedofaidsandalsoyouaregoingtodieverysooninanonspontaneouscombustion". 03:19:53 File. 03:20:08 "Bakefile's task is to generate native makefiles," 03:20:09 Racist fuck. 03:20:22 OH! It's XML! 03:20:25 I feel HAPPY! 03:21:04 LinBuild is a Python-based, simple and user-friendly build system for C/C++ on Linux/Unix. It's intended to be distributed with your project, so there's no need to get it installed on the system. 03:21:05 LinBuild adopts some concepts from Waf and CMake and it is simply a single script that depends only on Python. LinBuild replaces GNU Make and makes it really easy to configure, build & install a C/C++ project. 03:21:05 LinBuild features e.g. automatic build dependency scanning of source files, multi-threaded build process and built-in supports for Qt4 and pkg-config. 03:21:07 I wonder if it's SHIT or not. 03:21:21 I bet it's shit. 03:21:30 All this because C is too shitty to handle the equivalent of "ghc --make" 03:21:34 (which I love) 03:21:58 It feels like a gigantic cock transmitted through my speakers is penetrating my forehead with hatred 03:22:05 And not in a good way, either 03:23:14 Oh! Look! Linbuild is just like waf except it violates Python coding conventions. 03:23:46 We should organize a #esoteric coding marathon 03:23:50 where we each pick a program the world needs 03:23:52 and code it 03:23:59 Good idea. Let's make it last 10 years. 03:24:07 no, that won't get done 03:24:13 -!- augur has joined. 03:24:14 But we won't make it good otherwise. 03:25:18 pikhq: oh i know what's gone wrong 03:25:20 I named it belial 03:25:22 duh 03:25:24 obvious curse 03:25:32 alise: Ah, no wonder. 03:25:46 alise: Hmm. mk? 03:26:05 target belial 03:26:05 cc **/*.c 03:26:05 cc.flags := [-Wall -Wextra] 03:26:05 (variant = "debug") => cc.flags += -g 03:26:05 (variant = "release") => cc.flags += -O2 03:26:12 whoops look at that i just made a non-shitty build system 03:26:17 I hear that's not permissible 03:26:18 Whoops. 03:26:54 pikhq: Okay, I'm requesting System Administrator's Permission to write a build system on the provisio that it has minimal dependencies, is designed to be bundled with its file, and really, really, honestly, truly doesn't suck. 03:27:14 *privoso. s? 03:27:24 bundled with its file 03:27:25 err i mean like 03:27:27 bundled with the project 03:27:48 alise: Praise be unto the idea. 03:28:13 Pity you are short on time to write code ATM. 03:28:17 Amen, amen, oh!, amen. Thank you Lord. 03:28:24 Ah! But I return the next after-noon. 03:28:33 And then the day after, it is a most wondrous day: for that is a day free of obligations. 03:28:33 Alas! 03:28:41 Isn't "Alas!" negative, sir?! 03:28:52 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:28:54 Oh! I am sorry! my existence displeases you. 03:28:58 I will shoot myself now. 03:29:12 Nay, it be both positive and negative, bearing 'pon context, my good sir. 03:30:11 I am enlightened as to the Glorious Tongue, stealing as it does from those best of the other tongues; just like religion! 03:31:02 Indeed; indeed. 03:31:57 pikhq: Can I make a huge request of you, esteemed sir? -- I am barely even able to recognise myself in making it, for I strive to be humble -- but could you remind me presently, the next time I am on this forum of discussion -- to continue the gifted work you have set me? 03:32:17 Sgeo_! It is time. 03:32:27 alise, :( bye 03:32:36 alise: Such a request, indeed, I can grant. 03:32:36 Sgeo_: here, you can have the job 03:32:39 oh 03:32:40 okay then 03:32:40 :D 03:32:41 :P 03:32:41 bye 03:33:07 And may you have luck in that land with the shadow of Death upon ye! 03:33:17 Hope you didn't spend the day not working at moving 03:33:49 I mean, assuming there was something you could have done today, with the holiday and all... I really don't know the procedures 03:34:10 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:36:23 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:39:18 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:41:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:41:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:41:43 -!- augur has joined. 03:46:42 -!- mibygl has quit (Quit: Page closed). 03:50:07 -!- sshc has joined. 04:11:58 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:12:05 -!- augur has joined. 04:12:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:13:15 -!- lament has joined. 04:14:53 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:22:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:23:02 Ok, I'm going to consider LambdaMOO insecure 04:23:38 just now? 04:59:48 -!- augur has joined. 06:14:00 -!- sshc has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:22:07 Sgeo_: What's so insecure about it? 06:22:28 Ilari_antrcomp, I was able to make an object that didn't have #1 as an ancestor 06:22:54 If someone tries looking at it, they'll just get an error 06:23:56 how's that insecure? 06:25:03 I could put it in a public place and it would prevent anyone from seeing anything ther 06:25:05 *there 06:25:11 oh 06:25:17 Well, I thin 06:25:20 *think 06:26:42 And it's difficult to destroy 06:27:07 But not impossible 06:27:16 I hope I'm not screwing up the $recycler somehow 06:27:28 Because things that go there don't actually get destroyed, just reparented 06:27:45 Ok, it's now $garbage 06:47:55 -!- Maelstromg has joined. 06:55:34 -!- Maelstromg has left (?). 06:58:54 wtf 06:58:58 why does HTTP stop at midnight 06:59:24 can someone google me an alternate-port proxy? 07:04:20 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 07:06:52 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:10:51 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:11:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:17:15 -!- relet has joined. 07:18:40 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:20:56 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:21:24 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 07:21:32 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor. 07:38:07 -!- sshc has joined. 07:52:21 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:54:32 -!- Gregor has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:21:36 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:29:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:34:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:36:20 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 08:45:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:46:23 oerjan! 08:46:34 * oerjan hides 08:46:51 DON'T SHOUT AT ME oh wait 08:47:45 I wasn't shouting... 08:48:35 i distinctly noted an exclamation mark 08:49:08 That's not the same as shouting. 08:49:44 And anyway, I always do that when people enter. 08:49:46 YOU'RE NOT FOOLING ME!!!!!!!!!!1111111ELEVEN 08:51:52 I'm just jealous of your topology skills. 08:52:03 *MWAHAHAHAHA* 08:52:13 (shouting is mandatory in this situation) 08:54:42 LambdaMOO's housekeeper is dead 08:56:11 why does HTTP stop at midnight <-- clearly you have the cinderella option 09:00:19 Sgeo_: Do you always go on about dying virtual worlds? 09:00:45 Phantom_Hoover, Second Life isn't widely considered to be dying 09:01:10 But you don't go on about it. 09:02:50 I do when I'm interested in it 09:03:32 Oh, like the floating-point gravity thing. 09:04:44 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 09:06:58 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 09:15:23 -!- tombom has joined. 09:16:17 * Sgeo_ should sleep now 09:17:08 !haskell log 8/log 10 09:17:14 0.9030899869919434 09:21:00 * Sgeo_ needs to get up at an unknown time, so I should NOT still be up 09:21:11 Despite how much good I may be doing for LambdaMOO 09:26:53 Eeep, there's a petition to shut down LambdaMOO 09:28:19 Set up a counterpetition. 09:28:30 Threaten those who sign it. 09:28:35 Do whatever it takes. 09:29:55 There are currently no signers 09:32:29 Then intimidate the person who started it!! 09:32:42 Intimidate *someone*, dammit. 09:35:18 It seems to be from 1999 or so 09:39:15 "I think we need to be proactive and bomb the hell out of the houses of everyone who signed #100000" 09:43:24 !haskell log 10 09:43:25 2.302585092994046 09:43:30 !haskell log E 09:43:44 !haskell log (exp 1) 09:43:45 1.0 09:43:47 foh right 09:43:55 thanks :) 09:44:03 Please to be removing your dumb ballot to free quota for my Love Dungeon with Clapper(r) activated nipple electrodes. 09:44:08 !haskell pi -- on the other hand 09:44:10 3.141592653589793 09:54:22 * Sgeo_ needs to be asleep 10:00:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:01:18 -!- relet1 has joined. 10:02:24 -!- relet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:04:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:16:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:16:47 !haskell pi - 0.141592653589793 10:16:48 3.0 10:17:10 -!- relet1 has left (?). 10:19:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:27:39 -!- relet has joined. 10:36:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:49:16 aargh... an increment of 1 on the rotation sensor is equal to 65/216 degrees. 10:50:44 and one whole rotation of the turn table is equal to 111.66666... on the rotation sensor. Since it gives integers this will be a pain to handle. 10:51:07 and the controller for this is an embedded thing, so it is infeasible to handle non-integers anyway 10:51:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:56:41 Ugh. It isn't even milliradians? 10:57:11 Ilari, actually it is 16 / whole rotation of rotation sensor 10:57:26 Ilari, but I was measuring wrt the turn table 10:57:30 which this thing is connected to 10:58:14 At least one tank had main turret rotation scale in milliradians... 10:58:22 Ilari, in case you missed it, I'm building a panoramic head for my camera (to avoid parallax). In lego that is. 10:58:36 and well you selections are somewhat limited when it comes to gear ratio there 10:59:00 Ilari, and yeah this is quite far from a tank :P 11:00:12 Ilari, anyway you don't want too many gears in this case, since lego has a bit of "slack", which means that if the direction is reversed it will take a bit for it to propagate back to the rotation sensor if you have a lot of gears in between... 11:02:14 The length of 1 milliradian circular arc at 1km is 1m... Hmm... If one rotation of table were amplified to be 15 rotations of sensor, then it would give 1675 units per table turn? 11:02:38 Ilari, what? 11:02:55 well yeah requires fitting gears. 11:04:22 If one takes circular arc that has length one thoursandth of circle radius, then from center, it appears in angle of 1 milliradian. :-) 11:05:00 which is tricky here. Also space around the turn table is at a premium, due to much reinforcement to be able to carry the load of a camera without bending or such. Sure it wouldn't mechanically break with some of that removed, but it would be unusable for the task due to not being level... 11:05:29 I have to use counter weights anyway 11:06:08 90 degree angles tend to be weak point. Adding short 45 degree support beams improves things a lot. 11:06:44 Ilari, you mean at the base? it has enough area to not be able to tip over even at extreme imbalance. 11:07:28 and on top of the turn table the load will either be near the center or far out in a given direction 11:07:55 (depends on adjustment, the whole thing can be adjusted for different lenses, since the no-parallax point will differ 11:08:02 ) 11:09:25 E.g. if one has two hollow cubes built from 20 beams, the beam joints will be the weak spot. But adding 44 short support beams connecting each two adjacent beams will improve strength greatly. 11:10:11 Ilari, are you talking about something completely different from me? As this seems to not apply here at all. 11:10:23 as in, lego 11:10:43 oh wait you don't know the design 11:10:44 hm 11:10:55 should take a photo, not that it is completely finished yet 11:11:17 Does the point where axis connects to table top need reinforcement? 11:11:37 Ilari, axis as in turn table center? 11:11:44 Yes. 11:12:05 well yes it is quite reinforced. Thankfully there are no "active" things to route through there 11:12:33 the base is just a sturdy base, all the motors and such is in the turning bit above 11:13:25 why? 1) because the battery box would be an excellent counter weight to the camera 2) because this will need to rotate 360° and I don't want a twisted cable in the middle 11:13:29 How I would reinforce table (but I haven't tried to do this): Few beams plus 45 deg support beams connecting it to axis. 11:13:46 Ilari, let me find a picture of the lego turn table used as the core of it 11:14:16 argh peeron has it as two parts 11:14:24 also peeron is loading very slowly today 11:15:14 Ilari, http://media.peeron.com/ldraw/images/47/2856.png and http://media.peeron.com/ldraw/images/47/2855.png 11:15:27 those are in reality joined together quite well 11:15:42 never been able to take them apart 11:15:48 (they came in the box as one part) 11:16:13 Ilari, there are some "rests" for the above structure further out from this base, where some wheels can rest 11:16:18 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:16:21 so the center doesn't take the whole load 11:16:40 (in my design that is) 11:17:09 Ah, wheels... That's one way to reinforce it. 11:18:04 Ilari, well, that spreads the load further out, making it more stable, since there is some slack in the joint between those parts so it will not stay completely level if you put a load at a beam attached out from the top of it 11:18:47 BTW: Merry-go-round with magnetic bearings might be quite wild ("unsafe"). :-) 11:18:50 Ilari, it does however not break without those. So for purely mechanical reasons that turn table is enough 11:19:00 Ilari, heh? 11:20:12 Ilari, anyway, I took a pause from building this while trying to figure out how to best program it. The plan is to figure out how long to wait between rotating and taking shots with the camera by using a lego light sensor aimed at the memory card status led 11:20:13 :) 11:20:18 And if one wants something truly insane, use electromagnetic levitation with capability to have rotating EM wave. 11:20:51 Ilari, don't forget to put up a warning sign about "do not take any pacemakers or harddrives on this ride" 11:24:51 Because rotating EM wave will make the top plate rotate. And it doesn't take that great speed to need great force to avoid falling off. 0.5 revolutions per second at 5m would need 5g... 11:26:41 hah 11:26:48 To avoid it being too crazy, rotating EM wave would only be usable to cancel out most of remaining friction and air resistance... 11:27:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:27:20 Why are we talking about rotating EM waves? 11:27:23 Ilari, would humans survive this speed anyway? 11:27:29 Phantom_Hoover, I have no clue 11:27:51 With that kind of acceleration, they would fly off... 11:28:23 Ilari, strapped in? That is common on fast amusement rides 11:28:43 Merry-go-round? Those aren't usually strapped... 11:28:58 Ilari, true but your one would require it 11:29:30 Those numbers were just example. Obiviously 5G is far too extreme. 11:29:49 ah 11:30:25 Ilari, so how did we get from lego technic turn tables to merry-go-round with rotating EM waves? 11:30:29 I still haven't figured out 11:30:42 Both turn? :-> 11:31:05 hm okay 11:32:59 Those aren't the only "turned to 11" versions of common playground objects... Large teflon-coated slides anyone? :-> :-> 11:33:35 (preferably painted white if possible without compromising slipperyness). :-> 11:33:47 Ilari, why white 11:34:22 the only reason I can think of is heat. And that would need extreme speeds 11:34:34 plus I'm not sure it applies to sliding on ground 11:34:56 Solar heating. Metal slides tend to really heat up in sunshine. 11:35:09 it is however the reason why concorde were mostly white (excluding logo, which was restricted in size due to heat reasons) 11:36:47 Swing with solid support rods axled to top beam... :-) 11:37:32 Ilari, uh uh 11:37:47 Ilari, you still won't get the required speed manually 11:37:53 you would need a powered swing 11:38:39 and that would require something other than chain for suspending the swing from the beam 11:38:44 something solid 11:39:04 Resonant pumping can bulid great amplitudes. Normally chain bending restricts it. 11:39:41 Ilari, so manual start and then powered rotation of the chain mount? 11:39:58 since without a decent initial speed it would just spool up the chain in that case 11:40:01 like a which or such 11:40:04 I don't know if powered rotation is even necressary there. 11:40:24 Ilari, you couldn't get it to rotate 360° otherwise 11:40:38 and that is the goal right? To turn it into a centrifuge 11:40:53 hm I suspect you would need a counter weight 11:41:03 so yeah, solid suspension is probably required 11:42:23 What is maximum swing angle of ordinary swing? Something like 150 degrees? 11:42:43 Ilari, I have no idea 11:43:17 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if any branches of mathematics have ever been proven inconsistent. 11:43:31 (Answers on a postcard) 11:44:06 eh? 11:44:08 Also, how large amplitude one can archive with solid-beam swing might depend on bearings. Good bearings allow larger amplitudes (assuming pumping beyond +-90 degrees is not possible. 11:44:17 Phantom_Hoover, oh, read it as "comics on a postcard" somehow 11:44:23 *might allow 11:45:38 Ilari, with solid beams you can use an external engine anyway 11:45:49 strapping yourself in is recommended for safety reasons 11:45:53 probably a back rest too 11:47:14 Back is surpisingly weak. I almost once really hurt my back when rollerskating by doing too sharp turn... 11:49:09 I once saw large swing (meant for lots of people at once) that reportedly rotate 360 degrees... 11:50:02 *could rotate 11:50:56 huh 11:50:59 where? 11:51:41 Some place near where I live... 11:53:03 It was built of wood... 11:54:20 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 11:56:56 Ilari, huh. Any photo? 11:57:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:00:36 Nope... 12:04:05 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:31:43 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:34:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:34:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:40:25 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 12:40:33 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:57:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:58:24 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:10:49 Ilari, oh btw, that microcontroller I'm using have: http://sprunge.us/GJNG 13:11:02 hm should test float and double 13:11:07 would be emulated anyway 13:14:07 wtf, sizeof(float) == sizeof(double) == 4 13:23:17 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:23:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:34:21 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:34:21 -!- FireFly has quit (Changing host). 13:34:22 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:48:40 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:49:04 -!- myndzi has joined. 13:51:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:27:20 /o/ 14:27:21 | 14:27:21 /`\ 14:32:17 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:40:26 hm 14:40:36 I have a variant of the 4 colour problem here 14:40:47 which I'm not sure what the answer is to 14:40:50 basically: 14:42:54 Assume you have a perfectly flat plane of finite size, you want to radio coverage everywhere, that is fill the plane with circles of a given size such that every point is in at least one circle. Overlap is allowed but should be minimised. No two overlapping circles must have the same colours (that is, different frequencies so you don't get interference). How many colours would you need? 14:43:35 the whole plane would be rectangular 14:44:23 maybe calling it a variant is stretching things a bit though 14:44:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:49:58 Seems like two separate problems to me 14:50:18 First solve the coverage issue and then colour the resulting graph 14:50:46 probably 14:51:01 Deewiant, wonder what sort of placing would give minimal overlap 14:52:03 (There's no such thing as a "4 colour problem": there's a 4 colour theorem, and then there's a problem called graph colouring) 14:52:17 (Or a class of problems, I guess) 14:52:39 Deewiant, and then, is the "minmal area with any overlap" solution also the one with least colours... 14:53:01 minimal overlap = zero, or the general case allowing some overlap? 14:53:18 relet, see the question above. Minimal overlap would not be zero here 14:53:27 you can't tile the plane with circles afaik 14:53:36 not without getting some space in between 14:53:50 ah, sorry. I misthought that as minimal non-covered area 14:54:49 anyway, one could imagine the solution with least area where there is any overlap is one where you have some points with n circles overlapping, but there is another solution where the total area with any overlap is more but there are at most n-1 different circles overlapping in one point 14:54:51 if you see what I mean 14:54:54 AnMaster: Depends on the constraints on the circle size 14:55:13 If we can make one huge circle covering the whole thing, that's obviously optimal as far as colours go 14:55:15 Deewiant, well all circles have to have the same size, wasn't that given ? 14:55:26 Sure 14:55:33 yup. you can either go for optimal packing, and add smaller circles inbetween, or pessimal packing and add larger circles. 14:55:33 So hmm 14:55:43 hm 14:55:57 brb, need to help person with high fever... :( 14:55:59 You'll get a lot of overlap if you can't even reduce the circle size, I think 14:56:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:56:27 (Unless your circle size is such that the circles degenerate into points: no overlap and 2-colourable) 14:56:54 Or wait, only overlaps must have the same colours, so 1-colourable 15:01:29 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 15:02:20 back 15:02:41 hm 15:02:42 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:04:23 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:05:08 alise isn't around, is he? 15:05:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:05:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:06:19 "setting bit 2 (mask interrupts) to 1 will mask all interrupts except NMI". Seems like a quite reasonable statement eh? 15:06:23 now expand NMI 15:06:37 "setting bit 2 (mask interrupts) to 1 will mask all interrupts except non-maskable interrupts" 15:06:41 now that seems slightly silly 15:08:08 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:08:09 oh nice alternative to having a reserved bit in your flags register: "Bit 6—User Bit (U): This bit can be written and read by software (using the LDC, STC, ANDC, 15:08:09 ORC, and XORC instructions)." 15:08:23 (wtf at that linebreak, meh) 15:08:50 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:11:58 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 15:45:36 -!- rodgort has joined. 15:59:17 like a satellite, i'm in an orbit all the way around you 16:04:38 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:06:28 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:09:21 -!- relet has joined. 16:35:47 -!- lament has joined. 16:42:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:42:30 oerjan! 16:42:49 PHANTOM_HOOVER 16:43:00 THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT! 16:43:23 How do you even pronounce "oerjan"? 16:43:56 ___ _ ___ 16:43:56 / _ \| |__|__ \ 16:43:56 | | | | '_ \ / / 16:43:56 | |_| | | | |_| 16:43:56 \___/|_| |_(_) 16:44:28 Wow, nice kerning. 16:44:41 figlet is cool 16:45:30 oerjan is pronounced like ørjan, naturally 16:45:59 And how is that pronounced? 16:46:11 just the way it is written >:) 16:46:13 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 16:46:26 ...weird 16:46:36 ircii looked completely different last time I used it 16:47:21 Have you tried turning it off and on again? 16:49:17 yeah 16:49:22 it's weird actually ircii wasn't installed 16:49:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology 16:49:27 maybe I'm just crazy and hallucinated using it 16:50:35 oh... it was irssi maybe? 16:50:37 brb 16:50:39 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Client Quit). 16:51:18 Phantom_Hoover: [øɾjɑn] or thereabouts I guess 16:51:24 Dammit, I didn't get a chance to ask him if he was sure that it was plugged in. 16:52:09 Deewiant: i _think_ the ø should be an oe ligature, according to that article 16:53:05 Hmm, I was looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_language#Vowels 16:53:39 yes i noticed they disagreed 16:53:59 But if that's what the short one is to be, then presumably yes 16:54:03 #Vowels doesn't distinguish short and long 16:54:05 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:54:11 It doesn't mention œ at all 16:54:26 Which is why I didn't look into it any further :-P 16:54:41 But yeah, I guess /œɾjɑn/ is closer to the mark 16:58:43 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if any branches of mathematics have ever been proven inconsistent. 16:59:37 i do recall an anecdote about someone doing his thesis or something on a complicated subject, and that at the defense or something someone pointed out that the only example of his structure was the empty set (or something) 16:59:45 you can tell my memory is vague there :D 17:00:35 of course any subject that depends on an unproven hypothesis could face the same problem 17:01:17 But I mean something like the axioms being inconsistent. 17:01:31 i also recall someone once proved a theorem by first giving a proof assuming the riemann hypothesis (i think) was true, and then a proof assuming it was false 17:01:51 Like coming up with a proof that 1=0. 17:02:30 Phantom_Hoover: you know there is a theory of odd perfect numbers - but no one has ever found an actual example or proved they don't exist... 17:03:13 Phantom_Hoover: oh, you could say naive set theory is such a branch 17:03:24 russell proved it inconsistent with his paradox 17:03:31 Ah, indeed. 17:04:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 17:04:12 Also, is logic an axiomatic system? 17:04:28 interesting question 17:04:48 you need at least one inference rule 17:05:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:05:11 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 17:05:13 ...there we go. 17:05:18 this client is superior 17:05:25 Are you sure it's plugged in? 17:05:26 and then you can do the rest with axiom _schemas_, i think. 17:05:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has quit (Changing host). 17:05:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 17:05:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 17:05:50 (an infinite set of patterns that are all axioms) 17:06:21 * CakeProphet defines a logical system that has an infinite number of axioms. 17:06:38 um wait 17:06:55 the set of patterns is finite of course, but they describe an infinite set of axioms, is what i mean 17:07:13 tl;dr... I'm busy defining an infinite set of axioms. 17:07:41 explicitly, of course. 17:07:45 oerjan: Aren't they basically fancy axioms? 17:07:51 The patterns. 17:08:19 Phantom_Hoover: it depends on how you define an axiom 17:08:32 they're not single propositions of the actual logic 17:09:41 hmmm... okay, so my axioms are going to be enumerated 17:09:43 they contain meta-variables. that's sort of the point really, when you go this deep in defining logic you reach a point where you cannot escape having the _meta-theory_ being more complicated than the actual theory you are describing... 17:09:52 the odd ones disprove Godel's incompleteness theorem 17:10:03 the even ones determine if an aribtrary program halts. 17:10:21 How do the odd ones do that? 17:10:29 by being axioms, duh. 17:10:58 So they all state that "Gdel's incompleteness theorems are false"? 17:11:00 that's like asking how equality works. 17:11:11 Phantom_Hoover: no, not explicitly 17:11:15 CakeProphet: btw godel's incompleteness theorem requires your axioms to be recursively enumerable iirc 17:11:27 but each one achieves that . 17:11:38 which probably thwarts your project in principle 17:11:52 well no... 17:12:07 the ones divisble by 5 disprove that part of GIT 17:12:22 in doing so... they refer to all the axioms divisble by 5 17:12:24 so basically your theory is inconsistent. got it ;) 17:12:52 Axiom 1: Axiom 2 is false. Axiom 2: Axiom 1 is true. 17:13:08 Or perhaps Axiom 2: Axiom 1 is false. 17:13:22 Yes, that one. 17:13:22 either. 17:13:48 for axiom 2 to be false in the first example... axiom 1 would have to be false 17:13:48 No, wait, the second is consistentish. 17:14:24 oh wait... no that works. 17:14:36 ...fuck, I don't know. 17:15:41 Axiom 0: your mom is crazy in bed Axiom N: Axiom N-1 is true 17:15:59 In the first system, Axiom 1 → ¬Axiom 2 17:16:12 Axiom 2 → ¬Axiom 1 17:16:33 Axiom 1 → ¬Axiom 2 → Axiom 1. 17:16:37 Assume you have a perfectly flat plane of finite size, you want to radio coverage everywhere, that is fill the plane with circles of a given size such that every point is in at least one circle. Overlap is allowed but should be minimised. No two overlapping circles must have the same colours (that is, different frequencies so you don't get interference). How many colours would you need? 17:17:11 oerjan: all of them. 17:17:19 In the second, Axiom 1 → ¬Axiom 2 17:17:22 i _think_ minimal overlap may be a hexagonal pattern, isn't that the equivalent to kepler's theorem in two dimensions 17:17:33 Axiom 2 → Axiom 1 17:17:46 Axiom 1 → ¬Axiom 1 17:17:48 QED. 17:18:06 The first is quasi-consistent, the second is inconsistent. 17:18:22 and i think that requires exactly 4 colors 17:19:33 4 is clearly enough since this is planar 17:20:12 a b 17:20:18 17:20:20 er 17:20:23 a b 17:20:25 c d 17:20:32 e 17:20:48 hm wait 17:21:03 It's a matter of finding a tile, isn't it? 17:21:05 perhaps 3 is enough 17:22:01 Phantom_Hoover: well hexagonal is the densest _packing_, i'm pretty sure, so it probably also gives least overlap (just enlarge the circles of the packing until they cover all) 17:22:18 No, I mean for the colouring. 17:22:20 and only neighbors would overlap 17:22:49 Find a tile with which you can cover the plane without conflict. 17:23:28 i don't see what you mean, although the coloring would probably be periodic and so have something like a tiling associated 17:23:49 oh hm 17:23:56 a b c a b c a b c 17:24:04 c a b c a b c a b 17:24:08 3 is enough 17:24:11 Yes. 17:24:42 AnMaster: 3 is enough for a hexagonal pattern 17:24:46 oerjan, hm okay 17:25:36 oerjan, do you then consider the circles to include the edge or not? 17:25:48 AnMaster: i don't think that matters 17:25:53 oh wait 17:26:04 oerjan, I would consider it an open set 17:26:10 in this case 17:26:34 AnMaster: it matters only if the radius needs to reach to the center of neighbors. is it that large? 17:26:54 oerjan, the edge? no it is of course infinitely thin or something 17:27:13 as in the difference between [0,n] and [0,n) 17:27:16 if it doesn't reach to the center of neighbors, then it cannot overlap anything other than the neighbors 17:27:36 AnMaster: oh edge... i'm ignoring your finite area, this covers the whole plane 17:28:35 oerjan, do two circles meet in a point anywhere? as in edges touching each other and no overlap 17:28:54 then that difference for the circle would matter, wouldn't it? 17:29:10 oerjan, if you see what I mean? 17:29:40 AnMaster: no i don't think so 17:29:55 i mean 17:29:56 oerjan, "don't think you see what I mean"? 17:29:57 a b 17:29:58 c 17:30:24 then a b and c circles would intersect in a common point, but each pair of circles would overlap 17:30:32 oerjan, the thing was if there was some point that was only covered by the edges of two circles, and no overlap at all. 17:30:40 s/thing/question/ 17:31:04 If it's an open set then there are points not covered by oerjan's packing. 17:31:09 AnMaster: oh right, the common point would be that 17:31:18 oerjan, well that is an issue I think 17:31:30 Phantom_Hoover, thanks for understanding what I meant :) 17:31:36 AnMaster: i suspect you cannot get a minimum coverage without there being such points 17:31:47 oerjan, how? 17:31:50 because there aren't such points you can probably shrink some circle 17:32:12 so there is no truly minimal solution 17:32:26 *because if there 17:32:32 oerjan, all circles were to have the same size. As was implied by "circles of a given size" 17:32:38 same given size obviously 17:32:42 oh 17:32:47 You can get arbitrarily close to optimum packing. 17:32:56 With circles the same size. 17:32:57 Phantom_Hoover, ah, good enough I guess 17:33:00 well still. you can probably shrink _all_ circles by an epsilon. 17:33:08 hmmm I wonder how tree-based programming would work. 17:33:13 Lisp? 17:33:17 like, similar semantics to stackbased but with trees. 17:33:38 Oh, with trees as the primary data structures. 17:33:40 oerjan, they are all unit circles. But shrinking them would just scale the entire thing 17:34:01 Again, Lisp is sort of that, due to the structure of the lists. 17:34:09 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 17:34:10 and possibly add some more on the edges of the finite plane 17:34:12 AnMaster: well yeah. hm i guess this actually _would_ depend on your finite area, come to think of it 17:34:24 you could probably have an operation that's something like "take the current root tree, copy it, and push onto tree" or something 17:34:32 that'd be kind of crazy though. 17:34:33 because the finite area determines how tightly things fit 17:34:35 or.. pointless. 17:34:37 oerjan, well, I don't consider overshooting this area to be an issue 17:34:54 at least I didn't have that in mind as an issue 17:35:04 well, maybe not pointless. If you didn't copy and simply references you could get circular behavior. 17:35:13 *referenced 17:35:27 AnMaster: anyway i was ignoring the finiteness because it seemed like a finite area might complicate the pattern of circles (and i'm too lazy for that ;D) 17:36:17 oerjan, heh 17:36:57 In that case, it depends entirely on the shape of the area. 17:36:57 firall x. 1 17:37:02 *forall 17:37:05 deep. right? 17:37:25 CakeProphet: that's essentially graph/tree rewriting, it's a well-known strategy for implementing functional languages 17:38:57 ...are you sure it's similar. I mean like, how Glass is stack-based, but you "push" and "pop" to a tree instead. 17:39:12 with each operation, sequentially. 17:39:44 CakeProphet: well it's complicated than just pushing and popping i guess 17:40:01 CakeProphet: also a stack of trees is equivalent to a single tree, in a sense 17:40:08 Phantom_Hoover, well it was given as rectangular in my original question 17:40:35 Ah, 17:41:09 Then it depends on the ratio of the range of the transmitters to the edges, among other things. 17:41:48 Phantom_Hoover, yep, but extending outside the finite area was not considered a problem. Nor overlap outside of the area 17:42:18 and I did not have any specific ratios in mind originally 17:42:32 AnMaster: actually i don't think two circles can overlap outside without overlapping inside, assuming their centers are inside 17:42:46 No, they can't. 17:42:57 Unless the area is concave. 17:43:27 lessons learned: it is impossible to state any problem involving anything finite with enough detail. Where enough detail is defined as "a mathematician can't think of another question to ask to clarify the problem" 17:43:32 yeah it follows from convexity and the midpoint between the centers always being in the overlap area if there is any 17:43:36 ;P 17:44:07 oerjan, sure but the overlap area outside would not be counted towards the total 17:44:23 AnMaster: oh you mean for minimizing, right 17:44:29 oerjan, exactly 17:44:53 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:45:30 GAH 17:45:36 IE6 IT STILL LIVES 17:45:45 AnMaster: actually when i think about it there isn't really any reason to minimize the overlap area. in fact you would want to maximize it in practise, under the coloring restriction 17:46:06 oerjan, now replace the rectangle with an area defined as the coastline of norway on one side, then a line modified by a sine wave on the other. Have fun ;P 17:46:11 (better coverage if there is a failure with a sender) 17:46:29 oerjan, sure, but senders cost money 17:46:50 AnMaster: oh well right, perhaps minimizing the _number_ of senders rather than area 17:46:57 oerjan, do you know how many watt a typical radio transmitter is rated for? 17:47:05 no f* idea 17:47:17 oerjan, iirc 60000 W was the max in Sweden 17:47:33 for Sveriges Radio obviously, not for "local to the city" stations ;P 17:48:24 oerjan, so yeah, it costs quite a bit with senders. Even excluding the cost for the "hardware" 17:48:37 just the electricity bill must be fantastic... 17:49:01 alise isn't around, is he? 17:49:04 well, fantastic is wrong word, horrible maybe 17:49:07 maybe tomorrow, i think he said 17:50:11 AnMaster: hm the electricity bill alone would scale with area up to the maximum, wouldn't it 17:50:33 or wait 17:51:16 i guess transmission in the atmosphere is not trivial 17:52:01 for one thing, does it count as spreading in two or three dimensions 17:52:14 (beyond a certain distance) 17:52:26 oerjan, of course this does not apply as easily to "real life" 17:52:55 oerjan, what with the issues you mentioned. Plus mountains and tall buildings and so on 17:53:10 ...hmmm, I think I have a good idea for an tree-based esolang. 17:53:17 with nifty control flow structures. 17:53:26 oerjan, and local heat variations in the atmosphere would mess things up as well I suspect. 17:53:39 and the file system embedded in the tree structure. :) 17:53:40 I'm not sure if you can get radio mirages. but that would be awesoem 17:53:43 awesome* 17:53:52 just completely awesome 17:54:02 technically a graph, but mostly a tree. 17:54:16 huh 17:55:53 oerjan, "huh" about what? 17:56:37 radio mirages 17:56:45 ah 17:56:56 oerjan, I never heard of it though. Sadly 17:56:59 would be awesome indeed 17:57:06 Stallman is a very strange man 17:57:08 . 17:57:30 -!- comex has joined. 17:58:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot). 17:59:33 Also, I get the sense that my computer is bragging. 18:00:08 I wonder if Stallman smokes herb. 18:00:24 "Oh, look, I ran 1.3 million CPU cycles in a millisecond, what have you done lately?" 18:04:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:04:45 Phantom_Hoover, it said that? 18:04:57 Not in as many words. 18:05:10 ah 18:05:39 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:05:56 Although I may make it do that. 18:06:46 Phantom_Hoover, wait, your computer is only 1.3 GHz? 18:07:01 No, it was doing other stuff. 18:07:11 "Oh, look, I ran 1.3 million CPU cycles in a millisecond, what have you done lately?" 18:07:18 That's just the output from a time on some Lisp code. 18:07:20 as far as I can tell that gives you 1.3 GHz 18:07:30 Phantom_Hoover, you mean your numbers were made up? 18:07:39 Dude, ATM my computer is running at *500 MHz*. 18:07:50 Erm. 18:07:53 pikhq, hm slow for cpufreq 18:07:54 *800*. 18:07:59 ah more reasonable 18:08:07 No, I mean I timed some Lisp code, it took 1 ms and 1.3 gigacycles. 18:08:24 Granted, this is because my clock rate is turned way down due to low demand. :) 18:08:28 Phantom_Hoover, how did you get the 1.3 gigacycles number? 18:08:39 That is what the TIME function printed. 18:08:57 Phantom_Hoover, is that some byte code interpreter cycle or CPU cycles? 18:09:14 Hmm, it says "processor cycles". 18:09:20 Hence I assume CPU. 18:09:29 Phantom_Hoover, yeah multitasking might be messing things up 18:09:30 Also, SBCL compiles to native code. 18:09:44 So bytecode is implausible. 18:10:28 Phantom_Hoover, I can't think of any obvious way to measure cycle count on x86. At least not one that would be feasible implementing outside a program that specifically does that 18:10:54 what with the varying delay on instructions, out of order, super scalar. 18:10:56 and so on 18:11:01 oh and cache effects 18:11:03 don't forget that 18:11:05 I have no idea how it measures it. 18:11:12 (describe 'time) 18:11:22 TIME names a macro: 18:11:22 Lambda-list: (FORM) 18:11:22 Documentation: 18:11:22 Execute FORM and print timing information on *TRACE-OUTPUT*. 18:11:22 18:11:22 On some hardware platforms estimated processor cycle counts are 18:11:24 included in this output; this number is slightly inflated, since it 18:11:26 includes the pipeline involved in reading the cycle counter -- 18:11:28 executing (TIME NIL) a few times will give you an idea of the 18:11:30 overhead, and its variance. The cycle counters are also per processor, 18:11:32 not per thread: if multiple threads are running on the same processor, 18:11:34 the reported counts will include cycles taken up by all threads 18:11:36 running on the processor where TIME was executed. Furthermore, if the 18:11:36 ah 18:11:36 hahaha... I didn't know Google suggested Recursion when you type Recursion into it. 18:11:38 operating system migrates the thread to another processor between 18:11:40 reads of the cycle counter, the results will be completely bogus. 18:11:42 Finally, the counter is cycle counter, incremented by the hardware 18:11:44 Phantom_Hoover, no need to paste it all 18:11:46 even when the process is halted -- which is to say that cycles pass 18:11:48 normally during operations like SLEEP. 18:11:50 Source file: SYS:SRC;CODE;TIME.LISP 18:11:53 hm 18:11:55 Sorry. 18:12:58 Phantom_Hoover, hm not sure how you read cycle count on x86 18:13:07 presumably it is possible 18:13:28 oh the TSC 18:14:46 -!- tombom has joined. 18:16:03 Phantom_Hoover, and yeah if it uses the TSC it would include cycles spent by other CPUs as well 18:16:07 Phantom_Hoover, what did the program do btw? 18:16:24 if this is "hello world" I would say that you have a LOT of overhead ;P 18:16:28 or it moved between cpus 18:16:43 It's a 3-layer feed-forward neural network. 18:17:20 Hello world takes 44,360 cycles. 18:17:48 quite a lot. I wonder how many a C hello world would take, would have no gc overhead and such 18:17:54 still some IO overhead 18:18:00 Phantom_Hoover, what about 2+2 ;P 18:18:27 1480 cycles. 18:18:35 AnMaster: Well, there's stdio to go through and such. 18:18:56 OTOH, (time nil) takes 1720 cycles, so it's inaccurate for small values. 18:19:18 2+2 is therefore incredibly quick. 18:19:19 pikhq, as I said yes 18:19:25 still some IO overhead 18:19:44 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:19:44 Phantom_Hoover: Should be constant-folded, really. 18:19:46 Why did you ping me? 18:19:58 Phantom_Hoover, because I did /ping p and got you instead of pikhq 18:20:24 OTOH, (time nil) takes 1720 cycles, so it's inaccurate for small values. <-- sure that is inaccurate? 18:20:43 pikhq: 2+2? Like I said, it could take a cycle and it would report a couple of thousand cycles. 18:20:51 btw, timing (+ 2 2) on my system gave me 3934 cycles 18:20:57 sempron 3300+ 18:21:04 What implementation? 18:21:10 Phantom_Hoover, sbcl REPL 18:21:31 And nil isn't evaluated at all, so it's almost certainly inaccurate. 18:21:46 (time nil): 18:21:47 There is another channel on here that was here yesterday, because they needed a new IRC server I suggested Freenode. It is #mzx for the mainstream MegaZeux. I recommend the forked MegaZeux, which has no official IRC channel, however. (But you can discuss the forked MegaZeux on that channel however, don't too much) 18:21:48 3,611 processor cycles 18:22:09 If I write an accounting software what should I called it? 18:22:30 And the description for time says outright that there's an overhead approximately that of (time nil) 18:23:29 "RunProgram: Start execution of the program downloaded. A downloaded program can only be started if it contains the text "Do you byte, when I knock?", otherwise the executive refuse to run the program downloaded." <-- some aspects of the RCX ROM are bloody strange 18:26:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:26:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:30:24 hmmm... I wonder if I could be a leet haxor 18:30:36 * CakeProphet writes naive C code and tries to inject code via stack overflow. 18:34:19 * Phantom_Hoover is happy 18:35:14 The neural network code works for AND and OR. 18:35:18 Now to try XOR. 18:36:50 Actually, I can't be bothered. 18:37:03 Manually altering weights is unspeakably painful. 18:41:11 what are you doing? 18:52:31 weighing altered manuals 18:57:29 pineapple: Wasting time messing with neural nets. 18:58:47 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:59:02 And for XOR I have to change the weights pretty much by hand, which takes too much typing. 19:02:41 -!- tombom has joined. 19:06:46 tombom! 19:10:24 weighing altered manuals <-- interesting, why? 19:10:55 It was a facetious answer to pineapple's question to me. 19:11:20 Phantom_Hoover, ah. I imagine the extra weight from some added ink could be detected ;P 19:11:45 would take an incredibly sensitive scale 19:11:59 and require that the unaltered manuals had a very precise weight 19:12:01 A fascinating method for detecting cheats, but ultimately impractical. 19:12:04 s/scale/scales/ 19:12:30 Phantom_Hoover, exactly. But this is #esoteric, things doesn't have to be practical! 19:13:08 hello what 19:13:19 tombom, who's there? 19:14:26 http://sprunge.us/gdMY 19:15:43 pikhq, what does it do? 19:15:57 Imperative → imperative via functional seems an odd choice. 19:15:57 generate x86 asm I figured out 19:16:06 ah probably bf 19:16:09 so BF compiler then 19:16:12 AnMaster: Yes. 19:16:20 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but it's still quite nice. 19:16:30 I've found Haskell makes for delicious compilers. 19:16:31 pikhq, nothing new. The best one before esotope-bfc was written in haskell 19:16:40 compiled to C, not asm of course 19:16:52 I think you meant Phantom_Hoover there. 19:17:01 AnMaster: Yes. I'm aware of said compiler. 19:17:01 Phantom_Hoover, me? no 19:17:03 oh 19:17:03 wait 19:17:06 I did 19:17:07 maybe 19:17:13 * AnMaster is confused 19:17:13 I'm currently generating smaller output than esotope-bfc. 19:17:18 right I meant Phantom_Hoover 19:17:33 pikhq, how do you compare 19:17:45 pikhq, since esotope generates C code 19:17:47 and you generate asm 19:17:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to xPhantom_Hoover. 19:17:55 AnMaster: There you go. 19:17:56 pikhq, gcc produces bloated binaries 19:18:01 AnMaster: Final binary, as generated with gcc -Os 19:18:04 xPhantom_Hoover, hah ;P 19:18:10 I've also compared with clang -Os 19:18:16 pikhq, tcc? 19:18:23 Not tried that. 19:18:38 Doesn't work well with my absurdly tiny libc. 19:18:47 (I want to be fair, okay?) 19:18:47 pikhq, anyway, I would say that the comparison is unfair due to the different target languages 19:19:03 pikhq, you linked that libc statically? 19:19:12 why not link both dynamically 19:19:26 AnMaster: *Dynamic linking makes for larger binaries*. 19:19:35 Also, said libc literally included wrappers for system calls. 19:19:49 And was *concattenated* with the file. 19:20:00 pikhq, I have seen cases of static linking being larger 19:20:05 pikhq, that was against boost though iirc 19:20:09 or something of similar size 19:20:09 Yes, but not in this case. 19:20:20 Where you only need read, write, and exit. 19:20:51 pikhq, anyway, the comparison is not fair IMO 19:21:02 It's still currently about an order of magnitude slower than esotope-bfc, output-wise. 19:21:02 pikhq, you should compare speed 19:21:09 indeed 19:21:17 This has a lot to do with my lack of constant folding and loop handling. 19:24:09 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:26:40 -!- Geekthras has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:31:11 -!- clog has joined. 21:31:11 -!- clog has joined. 21:34:12 clog! 21:34:29 Wait, does this mean that the prior conversation was unlogged? 21:35:06 presumably yes 21:35:19 wb clog 21:37:39 Phantom_Hoover, presumably you have your own local logs however 21:38:10 ...Probably. 21:38:21 Phantom_Hoover: yes, no one will ever know about our terrorist plans 21:38:28 ...shit 21:39:28 For some reason I have an overwhelming urge to write "rjan the headless esolang runner". 21:39:48 ...what 21:40:40 i'm not headless. otoh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken 21:40:41 Warren Zevon song. 21:42:29 "Roland is a Norwegian who becomes embroiled in the Congo Crisis of the late 1960s. He earns a reputation as the greatest Thompson gunner, a reputation that attracts the attention of the CIA." 21:43:03 See! 21:44:06 Although I never knew that he was Norwegian. 21:44:06 how very unrealistic. oh wait http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_French_and_Tjostolv_Moland 21:44:13 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 21:44:16 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi. 21:44:27 \o\ 21:44:28 | 21:44:28 >\ 21:44:58 ... 21:45:13 /o\ 21:45:13 | 21:45:13 |\ 21:45:19 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:45:20 I will never tire of it. 21:45:28 ,_o__, ,__o_, ,_o__, 21:45:29 | | | 21:45:29 /`\ /| /< 21:46:03 response varies by channel, lol 21:46:09 some people ... tire of it very quickly :> 21:46:26 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:46:37 It doesn't come up much in here, so it doesn't get too annoying. :P 21:46:59 _o_ 21:46:59 | 21:46:59 |\ 21:47:11 Is that ever going to be fixed? 21:48:36 fix what? 21:48:49 no because his client doesn't right-align nicks 21:48:59 Ah. 21:49:09 myndzi, it is rather annoying to people not using clients that do left ragged text 21:49:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to PH. 21:49:21 \o/ 21:49:32 /o/ 21:49:47 well, it has no hope of working for me, as I IRC in a proportional font 21:49:48 myndzi, mine right aligns the nicks up to the separator, then left aligns the text to the separator on the other side 21:49:49 (shocking I know) 21:49:57 myndzi, so it looks really bad from here 21:49:59 ais523: heretic! 21:50:26 ais523, okay, ehird. Nice try pretending to be ais523. But the game is over now. 21:50:32 -!- PH has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 21:50:47 AnMaster: why would you expect ehird but not me to do that? 21:51:12 ais523, should be quite obvious. He is a font manic. 21:51:23 hmm, obviously he'll have ignored me based on that inference and won't hear this 21:51:26 even though it's wrong 21:51:29 He is a bit of a typography nut. 21:51:36 A *bit*? 21:51:37 heh 21:51:39 ais523, nice try 21:51:56 ais523, also /nickserv help output must look horrible to you 21:52:03 since it space align two columns 21:52:09 Phantom_Hoover: In casual English usage, "a bit" can mean "quite exceptionally". Weird but true. 21:52:12 nah, there's enough spaces to see the columns 21:53:50 this column is not big enough for the both of us 21:54:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:54:24 oerjan: I don't get the pun 21:54:33 as in, I get the reference but not the non-pun context of the sentence 21:54:50 am i not allowed to do absurdist humor now 21:55:03 you are, it just needs to be slightly easier to get than that 21:55:16 It's a reference. 21:55:19 QED. 21:55:21 but if it was easier to get it would be your mom 21:55:34 ais523, wouldn't look aligned however 21:56:27 * AnMaster hits Phantom_Hoover with a stunned seagull reference 21:56:30 now, get that one ;P 21:56:40 and no helping him 21:56:42 * oerjan wasn't planning that punchline when he started the sentence 21:56:46 (I know I used it before in this channel) 21:57:01 oerjan, which punchline? 21:57:27 your mom 21:57:33 oh hah 22:01:09 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 22:03:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:18:06 fizzie, test of prototype lego panoramic head, using the mobile phone (a lot easier to mount than my "real" camera: http://omploader.org/vNGgydw (note: progressive jpeg) 22:18:11 and yes the image is quite grainy 22:18:37 but the dual jpeg compression (once from camera, then once from converting the tiff hugin output) 22:18:40 made it worse 22:22:15 * Phantom_Hoover finally got XOR working! 22:26:45 * pikhq_ xors you 22:27:31 So much pain because of a logistic function... 22:28:07 I have an object called *XORN*. 22:28:23 It does not, however, walk through walls. 22:29:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:31:11 _o_ 22:31:11 | 22:31:11 /\ 22:31:20 _o_ _o_ _o_ 22:31:21 | | | 22:31:21 /`\ >\ >\ 22:32:03 hah the last one was aligned for me 22:32:19 the last one to the first one I mean in the line " _o_ _o_ _o_" 22:32:32 also myndzi's script is broken now 22:32:39 since it didn't add anything under my line 22:32:43 I assume you're on XChat too, then? 22:32:44 _o_ 22:32:44 | 22:32:44 /| 22:32:49 Phantom_Hoover, ERC 22:33:08 Is there anything Emacs can't do? 22:33:13 Hold on... 22:33:16 myndzi, do you have very very short line length or why wasn't anything added to " the last one to the first one I mean in the line " _o_ _o_ _o_"" ? 22:33:40 Phantom_Hoover, um yes. It can't synthesise for FPGAs 22:33:41 afaik 22:34:09 AFAYK. 22:34:10 AnMaster: well it wrapped in irssi (80 chars) 22:34:12 Phantom_Hoover, also it is event based and single threaded, doesn't do any sort of cooperative or preemptive multitasking 22:34:22 oerjan, 80 chars only? 22:34:29 it only went like 2/3 of my screen 22:34:44 AnMaster: that is sort of the old standard 22:36:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:36:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover` has joined. 22:36:21 ERC is UGLY. 22:36:26 oerjan, yes, But no one uses that any more 22:36:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:36:41 Phantom_Hoover`, ugly? Next time you will call twm ugly or something equally silly! 22:36:51 TWM is cool. 22:37:04 AnMaster: TWM is only ugly by default. 22:37:04 Especially on a Mac. 22:37:14 With some color changes it seems much less so. 22:37:16 Phantom_Hoover`, XD 22:37:21 AnMaster: i like to have room for irc + another small window side by side 22:37:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover` has quit (Client Quit). 22:37:33 Though it's still only barely *usable*, it's still not bad for 30-year-old software. 22:37:35 oerjan, same, I have browser and irc client side by side 22:37:38 and i also like a big font 22:37:40 and terminal below both 22:37:45 well 22:37:49 different terminal that is 22:37:53 I don't run emacs in X mode 22:37:54 and a small monitor 22:37:55 *shudder* 22:37:56 I've got my terminal open full-screen. 22:38:01 Phantom_Hoover`, anyway, I use heavily customised ERC settings 22:38:10 the default alignment is wtf 22:38:15 It is immaterial. 22:38:16 (um well i don't _like_ a small monitor as such, i have one, this is a laptop) 22:38:29 Because of you people, I have forgotten what I was doing. 22:38:33 oerjan, oh well on my laptop I wouldn't use a setup like this 22:38:44 Phantom_Hoover: something ERC 22:38:47 anyway I want to get a dual head setup next time for my desktop 22:39:00 oerjan, was that a pun? 22:39:05 it was very bad in that case 22:40:41 no 22:41:09 just the top Phantom_Hoover message on my screen 22:41:20 or so 22:41:52 _o_ 22:41:52 | 22:41:52 /| 22:41:55 is the top one for me 22:41:57 or was rather 22:42:04 now /`\ >\ >\ is the top one 22:42:15 (and after I said this line, two lines below it) 22:42:24 oerjan, ^ (3 lines below it now) 22:42:37 you people and your tiny fonts and huge monitors 22:42:39 oerjan, you have a short scrollback 22:42:57 AnMaster: my scrollback is fine, i'm talking about actual visible text 22:43:00 oerjan, tiny? it is "Dejavu Sans Mono 9" 22:43:16 oerjan, well I meant visible scrollback without scrolling indeed ;P 22:43:57 Courier New, 10 point it says 22:44:35 46 rows and 80 columns 22:45:48 unsure about dimensions 22:53:22 * Phantom_Hoover is scared of curve integrals. 22:53:59 BOO! 22:54:14 * oerjan knew those once 22:54:26 I have no idea what they even do. 22:54:56 well for one thing you can calculate lengths of curves with them iirc 22:54:59 * pikhq_ shudders 22:57:51 I am scared of all mathematical things I don't understand. 22:57:58 It's just one of those things. 22:58:29 Phantom_Hoover: They're not *scary*, they're just more complex than your ordinary integral. 22:59:11 As soon as you explain them I won't be scared. As it was with sigmas. 23:02:23 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has joined. 23:03:08 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:11:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:15:28 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:23:06 Phantom_Hoover: They're not *scary*, they're just more complex than your ordinary integral. <-- s/more/even more/ 23:23:24 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:25:39 idea: befunge with branch delay slots 23:25:44 as a fingerprint perhaps 23:25:48 Deewiant, what do you think? 23:29:23 -!- maedhros777 has joined. 23:29:49 What exactly is Turing-completeness? 23:31:01 maedhros777, something that is equivalent to an Universal Turing Machine 23:31:03 Turing-completeness means, in a very technical sense, being computationally equivalent to a Turing machine. 23:31:09 Erm. A Universal ... 23:31:14 What's a Turing machine? 23:31:22 In a more practical sense, it means that it can compute anything that can be computed. 23:31:28 Sweet 23:31:41 I was wondering because it was a category on the Wiki 23:31:47 universal, or all. the very definition of a universal turing machine is that it can itself emulate all the others 23:31:54 How do you prove that something is Turing-complete? 23:32:22 maedhros777: by emulating something already known to be TC with it 23:32:48 But how do you know that the original thing is Turing-complete? 23:32:57 I think BF is used like that 23:33:03 (technically you should also prove that the something can be emulated by something TC) 23:33:10 So how do you prove that BF is Turing-complete? 23:33:25 maedhros777: the buck stops at turing machines 23:33:36 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 23:33:36 :) 23:33:38 all the others must emulate those, directly or indirectly 23:33:45 oerjan: Wasn't there a proof that Turing machines can compute anything, though? 23:34:15 pikhq_: that's the church-turing thesis and it isn't a proof, but a hypothesis 23:34:28 Oh, okay then. 23:35:01 oerjan, anyone tried to prove it? 23:35:05 So it's hypothetically possible that there is something that's both computable and not computable on a UTM. 23:35:25 What is the exact definition of a Turing machine, then? 23:36:29 yes, but it would take a very unusual way of computing, that no one so far knows about 23:36:36 Yes. 23:37:06 maedhros777: you have a tape, which is conceptually infinite, or at least can be extended as much as you like in at least one direction 23:37:33 Are there instructions on the tape or something? 23:38:02 no, data, in some alphabet (which is more or less arbitrary - anything with at least 2 letters can emulate each other) 23:38:17 -!- sshc has joined. 23:38:27 oerjan, don't forget the state of the heat 23:38:29 head* 23:38:38 which moves over the tape iirc 23:38:43 So it's a theoretical machine in which a command is given by an infinite number of intructions? 23:38:47 or was it the tape moving under the head 23:38:52 maedhros777, no 23:38:53 maedhros777: no 23:38:59 maedhros777, it is data, not instructions 23:39:08 but oerjan is a slow typer 23:39:13 and I don't remember the exact details 23:39:16 *sheesh* 23:39:28 well _one_ of us should shut up 23:39:30 ;P 23:39:32 How does the machine work if all it contains is data? 23:39:49 maedhros777: that's the tape. the machine also has a head, which moves along the tape 23:39:55 maedhros777, please wait for oerjan to finish typing that. It will take a bit 23:40:10 Like this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Maquina.png 23:40:20 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has joined. 23:40:25 that head is governed by instructions, in the form of a lookup table 23:40:53 maedhros777: something like that 23:41:07 the head has a state, from a finite set of states 23:41:22 Like this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Maquina.png <-- what is that supposed to be? 23:41:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine#Formal_definition 23:41:40 and the lookup table says, given the state of the head, and the symbol on the tape in the current position: 23:41:41 oh it is supposed to be a turing machine? 23:41:46 Yep :) 23:42:04 maedhros777, looked more like a sci-fi filing system gone spare 23:42:09 =D 23:42:27 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:42:27 maedhros777: well ok that's the mathematical definition, i'm going for a little more intuitive explanation here 23:42:30 So where does the notion that a Turing machine can compute anything come from? 23:42:43 -!- ws has quit (Quit: ...). 23:42:48 Turing said so. 23:42:53 Church also said so. 23:43:07 Did they have proof? 23:43:13 (well, Church said that lambda calculus can. And lambda calculus and a UTM are equivalent) 23:43:19 maedhros777, no, it is a conjecture, and no one found a counter example yet 23:43:26 Ok, then 23:43:37 I guess it would be pretty hard to disprove 23:43:41 So it's probably right 23:43:42 maedhros777: Most people just use the UTM as the definition of computability. :) 23:44:11 How could a language not be Turing-complete? 23:44:14 maedhros777: also it's not that it can compute _everything_, but that it can compute everything that we have a physically plausible way of computing at all 23:44:27 maedhros777: Trivially. 23:44:38 Could you give an example please? 23:44:42 Not having things like conditionals, having finite memory, 23:44:49 maedhros777: Brainfuck without loops. 23:44:52 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:44:59 maedhros777: finite memory is a big hint 23:45:22 Why wouldn't it be Turing-complete if it didn't have loops? 23:45:41 Because then it couldn't do anything conditionally ever. 23:45:58 I guess 23:46:17 Which is necessary to implement a Turing machine. 23:46:28 I've been wondering though, how are conditional expressions actually implemented? 23:46:34 Like in binary. 23:46:39 In what language? 23:46:48 "binary" is not a language. 23:46:53 C to assembly to binary, e.g. 23:47:06 I mean like assembly or machine-dependent binary 23:47:07 Well, it is in a formal sense, but that's beside the point. 23:47:18 maedhros777: So, C to $machine assembly to $machine binary 23:47:26 Yep 23:47:32 Depends on the machine, but it's most *commonly* a conditional jump. 23:47:47 maedhros777: another way of showing it is through the famous halting problem. a turing machine cannot decide whether another turing machine (encoded as data) will halt, turing proved this. so if a turing machine _can_ decide whether your computational model halts, then your model cannot be turing complete, essentially 23:47:57 For instance, x86 has "je foo", where it jumps to foo if the previous comparison was true. 23:48:16 pikhq_, also cmov 23:48:17 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:48:27 AnMaster: Ah, yes, it does have that. 23:48:45 And, obviously, if you have no loops, your computational model always halts. 23:48:47 also various other conditional jumps 23:48:48 -!- Oranjer has joined. 23:48:52 like jne iirc 23:48:54 and what not 23:49:01 AnMaster: That was just an example of a conditional jump. 23:49:05 yep 23:49:15 x86, being x86, is loaded with them. 23:49:19 And everything else. 23:49:24 Except for registers. 23:49:25 pikhq_, not registers though 23:49:26 yeah 23:49:31 you beat me to it 23:49:46 How would you, in general, prove that something is Turing-complete then? 23:49:59 Only I can see would be by conjecture 23:50:05 maedhros777, by implementing something known to be turing-complete in it. 23:50:28 maedhros777, no, turing completeness isn't a conjecture. What is a conjecture is that there is nothing beyond it that is computable 23:50:34 maedhros777: You demonstrate that it's computationally equivalent to something that is Turing-complete. 23:50:50 But that's endlessly recursive -- how would you prove that the thing that you're basing the Turing-completeness off of to be Turing-complete? 23:50:53 maedhros777, sure you can make up stuff beyond it, but it will be impossible to implement it, well that is the conjecture 23:51:06 This can be done by *implementing* something that is Turing-complete and implementing in something that *is* Turing-complete. 23:51:22 maedhros777, it all falls back on the UTM at the base. The conjecture is that the UTM is as far as you can go 23:51:31 I guess 23:51:35 maedhros777: in _principle_ you prove something turing-complete by showing that you can implement all turing machines with it 23:51:37 maedhros777: If nothing else, you can show equivalence with the UTM. 23:51:42 maedhros777, so there is a base case the recursion of proving it equivalent to an UTM 23:51:55 How would it be shown that BF is computationally equivalent to the UTM? 23:51:58 it is just that we don't know for sure if there is anything beyond it 23:51:59 As Turing-completeness means "equivalent to a UTM" 23:52:01 but in _practice_, you may use any of the other models that have already been proved to be able to do so 23:52:29 maedhros777, implement an UTM in it. Or lambda calculus or anything else that wasn't proven TC by using brainfuck 23:52:41 (the UTM itself being one of the first such simpler models) 23:53:03 oerjan, wait what? 23:53:37 oerjan, elaborate 23:53:38 AnMaster: The Universal Turing Machine is the Turing machine capable of implementing all other Turing machines. 23:53:46 pikhq_, oh right 23:53:55 yeah 23:54:00 maedhros777: BF-without-IO is equivalent to P'' with a simple isomorphism. (I don't recall what this is, but that's irrelevant for discussion) And P'', in some old paper, was shown to be equivalent to a UTM. 23:54:11 oerjan, you need to increase your typing speed ;P 23:54:21 Hm, let me check the wiki to see how it's Turing-complete 23:54:27 (this paper is most notable for being the first to show a structured programming language as being Turing-complete) 23:54:34 Ooh, good: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck#Computational_class 23:54:39 maedhros777, pikhq_ just told you 23:54:43 AnMaster: that would make my hands hurt unreasonably much, i'm afraid 23:55:13 also who says i'm _thinking_ any faster :D 23:55:36 (I shall note that, as IO capabilities have nothing to do with computability, any language-without-IO is *computationally* equivalent to the same language *with* IO) 23:55:39 also i _read_ slowly, too 23:55:46 oerjan, ;O 23:55:47 ;P* 23:56:10 yep, that is one thing that can be confusing at first 23:56:30 didn't someone invent "bf-complete" for describing "TC + byte STDIO"? 23:56:34 pikhq_: well that's a _bit_ simplified, you need some way to get initial data and give final data, even if you don't call it IO 23:56:40 AnMaster: Probably. 23:56:52 AnMaster: something like that 23:56:55 oerjan, appended at the end of the program is popular iirc? 23:58:00 Esolangs tend to be BF-complete. What with stdio being the easiest kind to do, and making it so that it's at least *somewhat* useful. 23:58:19 yep 23:58:26 Are most commonly used languages Turing-complete? 23:58:35 AnMaster: that assumes there is a concept of adding things to the end of the program 23:58:48 maedhros777: Yes. 23:58:52 maedhros777: if you ignore the thorny issue of finite memory, yes 23:58:55 maedhros777, C is not. since it can not have infinite memory due to the spec requiring sizeof(void*) being finite 23:59:03 True 23:59:13 C++, amusingly, *is* Turing complete. 23:59:15 maedhros777, and it also requires all objects to be addressable 23:59:24 How is C++ actually Turing-complete? 23:59:26 pikhq_, oh only through templates iirc? 23:59:31 AnMaster: Yes. 23:59:33 Oh 23:59:37 maedhros777, because iirc C++ *templates* are TC at compile time 23:59:41 maedhros777: C++'s template system is equivalent to the lambda calculus. 23:59:46 maedhros777, I seen factorial in C++ templates 23:59:52 I hadn't thought of that 23:59:53 no one said it was sane 2010-06-02: 00:00:06 It's a complete accident that this is so, in fact. 00:00:07 maedhros777: btw possibly the simplest TC model on the wiki is BCT, it's almost ridiculously simple 00:00:34 pikhq_, saying it is "equivalent to the lambda calculus" would also mean it is equivalent to bf 00:00:39 well wait 00:00:41 no byte IO 00:00:42 so no 00:00:48 if you find brainfuck too hard to implement, that's a good alternative candidate 00:00:48 but equivalent to P'' 00:00:49 at least 00:00:56 also combinatory logic 00:01:06 AnMaster: It's equivalent to the lambda calculus with a trivial isomorphism. 00:01:16 oerjan, what about the 2,3 thingy ais523 proved TC by using BCT? 00:01:25 isn't it very simple too? 00:01:33 pikhq_, ah 00:01:49 AnMaster: yes but that has the _extremely_ thorny issue of infinite setup and no halting concept 00:01:49 pikhq_, what makes an isomorphism trivial btw? 00:01:59 AnMaster: About on par with sed. 00:02:02 which makes it very hard to use for esolangs, i think 00:02:04 Oh, wait. 00:02:08 AnMaster: BCT is simpler 00:02:08 Sed is TC. Never mind. 00:02:09 :P 00:02:10 that's why I used it 00:02:14 well, cyclic tag in general 00:02:17 BCT's just a notation for it 00:02:24 AnMaster: A bunch of s/// statements manage the compilation. 00:02:41 pikhq_, as the general intelligence increase (but not IQ!), wouldn't the level of "trivial" change? 00:02:58 That's not what trivial means. :) 00:02:59 say, 20 million years from now 00:03:07 other things would be considered trivial 00:03:25 pikhq_: /// statements are TC too ;D 00:03:40 oerjan: *Gah* string rewriting. Right. 00:03:45 oerjan, not sed s/// I think 00:03:48 since it isn't recursive 00:03:50 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 00:03:50 like /// is 00:03:59 possibly 00:04:11 oerjan, didn't you prove /// TC using BCT? 00:04:16 AnMaster: yes 00:04:23 oerjan, also, how was BCT proved TC? 00:04:29 Hmm. String rewriting makes it so that Tcl is Turing-complete even without any commands defined. 00:04:32 How amusing. 00:04:40 AnMaster: i don't recall 00:04:42 pikhq_, really? heh 00:05:25 pikhq_, write a formal proof of it 00:05:31 Never! 00:05:35 ais523, is INTERCAL TC? 00:05:37 pikhq_, oh? 00:05:49 I don't want to wrangle the dodecalogue into TC-ness. :( 00:05:54 AnMaster: easily 00:05:56 pikhq_, the what? 00:06:02 ais523, doesn't it have limited state? 00:06:10 The 12 rules that describe all of Tcl's syntax and semantics. 00:06:13 no, it has loads of unbounded stack 00:06:15 *stacks 00:06:18 and you only need 2 00:06:19 pikhq_, meh 00:06:25 (aside from the normally-provided commands) 00:06:34 AnMaster: each variable has a RESTORE [iirc] stack 00:06:34 ais523, ah, but what about INTERCAL-72? 00:06:56 even INTERCAL-72 00:06:59 oerjan: you mean STASH stack 00:06:59 ah I see 00:07:05 ais523: right 00:07:11 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 00:07:12 STASH/RETRIEVE 00:07:16 normally just called "a stash" 00:07:31 ais523, btw alise wrote what was probably a J/INTERCAL polygot recently 00:07:48 wow, what a random language combo 00:07:52 ais523, should check logs to see if it works from the intercal side 00:08:09 ais523, no it wasn't. It was that J comments are: NB. 00:08:16 that is NB period, not just NB 00:08:20 I mean, thinking of that combo 00:08:31 ais523, and I commented on "DO NOT NOTA BENE" or such 00:08:32 you'd have to start DO or PLEASE to stop the INTERCAL erroring out immediately, though 00:08:33 -!- sshc has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:08:36 and one thing led to another 00:09:02 ah 00:09:08 ais523, yes the first line defines DO NOT to be a NOP from the J side iirc 00:09:29 ais523, and then you basically do: DO NOT NB. PLEASE intercal code 00:09:38 ais523, or similar 00:10:03 * oerjan kept nagging about NB. PLEASE intercal DO NOT being simpler 00:10:11 ais523, and DO NOT NB. PLEASE ... of course 00:10:12 * pikhq_ wishes you could just do "DO NOT PLEASE" and screw up the politeness 00:10:32 oerjan, but that doesn't work? 00:10:46 AnMaster: it should 00:10:57 oerjan, how is NB. hidden from INTERCAL? 00:10:59 but somehow alise thought it ugly 00:11:13 AnMaster: by the DO NOT at the end of the previous line 00:11:14 AnMaster: by the DO NOT on the previous line 00:11:31 ah 00:11:32 right 00:11:39 oerjan, doesn't work for first line though 00:12:09 AnMaster: indeed but it starts DO NOT anyway, so it just needs to be a J almost-nop 00:12:26 right 00:12:41 also mouse pointer went spare for a bit 00:12:59 shuddering in a circle of about 10 pixels 00:13:24 AnMaster: probably an LHC black hole passing by 00:13:34 oerjan, XD 00:13:45 oerjan, it happened a few times before LHC anyway 00:13:58 but yeah time travel involved clearly 00:14:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_prime_prime 00:14:15 oerjan, anyway, I think it is due to some resolution issue on the surface 00:14:16 How does r ≡ λR work? 00:14:20 sure, everyone knows the LHC particles time travel 00:14:28 In relation to BF 00:15:00 eh? 00:15:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_prime_prime#Relation_to_other_programming_languages 00:15:28 hm 00:16:08 Wouldn't that just set the tape cell to the cell at its right? 00:16:31 I don't know P'', so couldn't say 00:16:44 maedhros777: r is equivalent to + 00:16:59 "# R means move the tape-head rightward one cell (if any). 00:16:59 # λ means replace the current symbol ai by ai+1 (taking an+1 = a0), and then move the tape-head leftward one cell." 00:17:11 But how would it work? 00:17:24 maedhros777, that looks like it does >+< 00:17:30 Yeah 00:17:34 That's what I thought 00:17:41 Oh :) 00:17:43 maedhros777, so do <>+< 00:17:43 no, +<> 00:17:48 oerjan, oh right 00:18:16 oerjan, hm so bf is an optimisation kind of XD 00:18:33 I could never have thought bf was optimised compared to anything 00:19:04 Wouldn't it be >[-<+>]> or something? 00:19:14 Disregarding that the next cell would become 0 00:19:35 -!- coppro has joined. 00:19:39 hm? 00:19:40 maedhros777: huh? 00:19:43 maedhros777, no oerjan is right 00:20:03 Wait...is ai+1 to the right or left? 00:20:19 maedhros777: it's the _value_ not the position 00:20:20 maedhros777, no ai + is current value incremented 00:20:32 s/+ // 00:21:01 s/incremented// 00:21:03 oerjan: But then you're just copying the value of the cell to the right to the current value, right? 00:21:11 maedhros777, nop, to same 00:21:21 ? 00:21:23 maedhros777: no, it's an increment at the current spot 00:21:29 OHH 00:21:32 I get it now :) 00:21:34 maedhros777, to move is *after* 00:21:36 the* 00:22:01 Why is it ai+1 instead of (ai) + 1? 00:22:01 yes it is a stupid instruction set in part :) 00:22:16 maedhros777, why would you need to put out () there? 00:22:26 because multiplication binds tighter than addition? 00:22:31 maedhros777: for some reason the symbols are called a_i rather than simply the number i 00:22:31 Because isn't ai+1 the next cell? 00:23:20 That's a weird notation 00:23:22 a_0 corresponds to the BF cell value 0, and says nothing about where it is 00:23:34 oerjan, wait it is a_{i+1} as written on wikipedia 00:23:39 which is somewhat strange 00:24:12 maedhros777: i suppose it's to make it mathematically general by not saying _what_ symbols you use, just their order 00:24:24 Ok 00:24:26 oerjan, see what I said, error on wikipedia? 00:24:32 link? 00:24:37 So would r` work by wrapping? 00:24:38 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:24:43 oh wait 00:24:43 oerjan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_prime_prime section " Semantics" 00:24:57 Oops, I meant r' not r` 00:25:41 AnMaster: the i+1 is an _index_. (a_i)_{i=0}^n is the sequence of symbols in the alphabet 00:26:12 oerjan, yes and it being i+1 as an index makes no sense 00:26:21 oerjan, oh wait 00:26:27 rihht 00:26:29 right* 00:26:34 it is in the alphabet 00:26:35 I see 00:26:40 Anyone know where the proof of P'' being Turing-complete is? 00:26:46 I don't see it 00:26:56 1. ^ Böhm, C.: "On a family of Turing machines and the related programming language", ICC Bull. 3, 185-194, July 1964. 00:26:56 2. ^ Böhm, C. and Jacopini, G.: "Flow diagrams, Turing machines and languages with only two formation rules", CACM 9(5), 1966. (Note: This is the most-cited paper on the structured program theorem.) 00:27:02 maedhros777, in one of those I presume 00:27:09 I don't have those books, though :) 00:27:13 maedhros777, nor do I 00:27:18 Or are they essays? 00:27:31 maedhros777, more likely articles than essays 00:27:37 Yeah, probably 00:27:45 I'm gonna google them 00:27:50 maedhros777, good luck 00:28:09 maedhros777, anyway, there is an UTM implemented directly in bf listed on the bf page on the esolang wiki 00:28:16 alternative proof 00:28:23 Ok, I'll take a look 00:29:15 Got it: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:jsfWzj9RLwAJ:citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.119.9119%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf+Flow+diagrams,+Turing+machines+and+languages+with+only+two+formation+rules&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgh-bW5YldU2et4NaS9D0lJItEyRaiYO2N5lNEBi9jrYGjSm2xWqsjO48SCwjSFCQ52xGIp2ECu4jibe1UUwtPfd_DM_8XifhqQF4gLyrA58n62qOCiHwEHf963QyoVTFqjKCHS&sig=AHIEtbQNMV_kqHzz6ouESSojX5BgCg6aPg 00:29:20 Big URL :) 00:29:35 maedhros777: there seem to be no copies on Böhm's home page, so ... oh citeseer 00:29:39 Lots of lambda calculus though 00:29:58 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has joined. 00:29:59 Maybe I'll just look at the BF UTM implementation 00:30:00 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:30:23 maedhros777: BF is P'' prettified anyhow 00:31:11 i might even suspect Böhm constructed something more like BF first, and then made P'' by minimizing the symbols 00:31:31 Maybe 00:31:37 (well wikipedia almost implies as much) 00:32:58 maedhros777: also yeah r' wraps 00:33:19 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:34:02 oerjan: Ok thanks 00:35:09 Seems kind of interesting to me that the same wiki having languages like LOLCODE also has such intellectual articles on Turing-completeness :) 00:36:12 "Can haz stdio"? Classic. :) 00:36:41 maedhros777: you may note that boolfuck shows you don't even need more than two values 0 and 1 for TC, which means increment and decrement are the same operation 00:37:04 also some people here like to hate LOLCODE. just saying. ;D 00:37:23 oerjan: It's the greatest language ever :) 00:37:29 Besides BF, of course. 00:37:46 I should make a real-time multiplayer FPS in BF. =D 00:38:47 you might have _certain_ I/O problems. 00:38:51 maedhros777: Requires extensions. 00:38:58 At the very least something akin to PSOX. 00:39:15 You know I wasn't actually taking it seriously :) 00:39:31 But I could just do it in command prompt. 00:39:36 Without multiplayer, of course. 00:39:52 maedhros777: well someone _did_ make an adventure game already... 00:39:58 Really? 00:40:00 Where? 00:40:02 (although not directly in BF, i think) 00:40:07 Darn 00:40:18 it's called lostkng 00:40:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:40:36 I can't find it on google 00:40:42 it was compiled from BASIC, i think 00:41:20 Well, got to go now 00:41:22 Bye 00:41:24 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:41:44 oops 00:42:43 http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.html 00:44:06 <3 LostKng. 00:44:18 Such a good test of compiler speed. 00:44:39 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:54:08 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 01:20:32 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:22:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 01:25:38 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 01:30:13 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has joined. 01:31:48 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:32:59 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:38:44 -!- uorygl has joined. 01:41:16 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:43:08 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:44:21 -!- uorygl has joined. 01:46:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:48:58 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:49:55 -!- uorygl has joined. 01:52:41 -!- uorygl has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:58:10 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:58:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:01:09 -!- uorygl has joined. 02:06:52 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:08:03 -!- uorygl has joined. 02:13:14 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:13:24 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:14:23 -!- uorygl has joined. 02:16:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:18:47 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:45:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:47:35 -!- lament has joined. 02:54:30 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:08:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:09:43 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 03:12:13 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:17:30 -!- uorygl has quit (Quit: Changing server). 03:26:59 -!- Warrigal has joined. 03:27:43 -!- sshc has joined. 03:29:23 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to uorygl. 03:44:26 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:51:25 My ISP is not run by humans. 03:51:32 It is run by people who HATE ALL THAT IS GOOD 03:51:42 Nay, not people. XD 03:51:50 By BEINGS who HATE ALL THAT IS GOOD 03:52:40 who's your ISP again? 03:52:52 Some sattelite thing 03:53:49 WildBlue. 04:01:42 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:06:17 -!- sshc has joined. 04:11:43 -!- sshc_ has joined. 04:13:20 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:16:50 -!- sshc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:16:51 -!- sshc has joined. 04:23:38 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:27:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:28:04 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:36:49 -!- sshc has joined. 04:42:45 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:47:31 -!- sshc has joined. 04:52:33 -!- sshc_ has joined. 04:54:36 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:57:24 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:57:49 -!- sshc has joined. 04:58:57 -!- sshc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:05:49 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 05:08:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:31:36 -!- MizardX has joined. 05:49:08 -!- jabb has joined. 05:49:11 !!! 06:08:02 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:10:28 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:32:46 -!- coppro has joined. 06:37:26 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:40:29 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 06:43:46 -!- sshc has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:11:20 -!- lament has joined. 07:20:49 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 07:24:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:27:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:30:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:30:53 -!- sshc has joined. 07:34:15 -!- relet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:30 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 08:07:58 But oerjan isn't here. Who's swatting? 08:09:00 probably SWAT 08:09:31 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:29:18 -!- atrapado has joined. 08:33:10 -!- jcp has quit (*.net *.split). 08:33:11 -!- P4 has quit (*.net *.split). 08:39:21 -!- jcp has joined. 08:39:22 -!- P4 has joined. 08:40:21 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:40:41 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:41:49 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 08:49:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:56:55 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 09:05:59 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 09:09:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:16:26 -!- uorygl has joined. 09:18:40 -!- Axtens has joined. 10:01:13 -!- tombom has joined. 10:10:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:11:26 But oerjan isn't here. Who's swatting? 10:11:40 i think he's doing it preemptively these days. 10:12:13 (FireFly) 10:23:06 -!- Axtens has quit (Quit: it's that time of day again). 10:30:49 Hi oerjan/ 10:31:14 Does AnMaster ever actually leave the channel? 10:31:46 ...i don't recall 10:35:59 * Phantom_Hoover has no idea what to do now. 10:38:27 -!- cheater99 has joined. 10:51:19 fungot 10:51:20 Phantom_Hoover: good point. but does /etc/ bashrc... or cygwin. or vmware. or just listen to too mainstream music) 10:51:32 ^style Lovecraft 10:51:33 Not found. 10:51:37 ^style 10:51:38 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 10:51:49 ^style discworld 10:51:49 Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books) 10:51:51 fungot 10:51:53 Phantom_Hoover: ' they have some questions to ask you a question, just like anything else; sometimes wizards were thin and gaunt and talked to her in any way will explain his conduct to the inquisitors. at length. 10:52:05 This is the coolest thing ever. 10:52:28 ^style irc* 10:52:29 Not found. 10:52:32 ^style irc 10:52:32 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 10:52:37 fungot 10:52:38 Phantom_Hoover: yeah... most bots simply parse everything on the webpage i just get back ( 3 1/ 2 10:53:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:54:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:12:23 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 11:25:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:36:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:54:52 Does AnMaster ever actually leave the channel? <-- in case of thunderstorms yes 11:54:54 only then 11:55:15 also atm I'm trying to write my own number->hex formatting routine 11:55:31 justification for not using printf: don't have it, embedded 11:55:38 It takes a *thunderstorm* to get you off the channel? 11:55:49 AnMaster: Just copy printf's code? 11:55:55 Phantom_Hoover, well, to get the bouncer on my system off the channel 11:56:02 Phantom_Hoover, not enough space for the code 11:56:11 Phantom_Hoover, plus then I would need to format ASCII to display segments 11:56:15 I mean the hex-printing bit. 11:56:17 I'm going straight to the segments here 11:56:28 Hmm, fair point. 11:56:29 digits[0] = raw_value & 0x000f; 11:56:29 digits[0] = raw_value & 0x00f0; 11:56:29 digits[0] = raw_value & 0x0f00; 11:56:29 digits[0] = raw_value & 0xf000; 11:56:34 nice eh? 11:56:42 wait 11:56:45 * AnMaster fixes indexes 11:56:49 from copy and paste 11:56:52 Aargh, low-level output! 11:56:59 Phantom_Hoover, what? 11:57:15 Phantom_Hoover, this is not the monitor yet 11:57:16 err 11:57:17 I don't understand it, so it scared me. 11:57:18 display 11:57:26 Phantom_Hoover, it isn't output 11:57:28 it is code I wrote 11:57:35 Ah. 11:57:38 Phantom_Hoover, by bitwise and I mask out each digit 11:57:41 What is digits? 11:57:49 Oh, wait, I get it. 11:57:50 Phantom_Hoover, an array to hold one digit per byte 11:58:00 Shouldn't the indices be different? 11:58:10 Phantom_Hoover, " wait 11:58:10 * AnMaster fixes indexes 11:58:10 from copy and paste" 11:58:42 Oops 11:58:52 Phantom_Hoover, I haven't yet compiled it anyway 11:59:45 wait *removes that array, wastes memory* 12:00:07 What is it being displayed on? 12:00:09 okay fun, I think it is displaying in reverse 12:00:11 Phantom_Hoover, the RCX 12:00:20 let me find you a picture of the display 12:00:44 This is all for your camera, right? 12:00:55 Phantom_Hoover, yes I need to check the range of the light sensor 12:01:05 so I can figure out what sort of values to use when programming it 12:01:20 Phantom_Hoover, 4x digits in front of the walking person icon http://www.legolab.daimi.au.dk/CSaEA/RCX/Manual.dir/Buttons.dir/rcx_buttons.gif 12:01:26 Phantom_Hoover, that is 7-segment iirc 12:01:58 How much memory do you have on that? 12:02:31 Phantom_Hoover, total address space is 2^16. a lot of it is rom or memory mapped registers, or just not mapped to anything 12:02:35 so not completely sure 12:02:42 let me check the CPU docs 12:03:30 well lets see, the memory controller is in mode 2, so that means the middle column of the diagram applies 12:04:17 what a shitty resolution 12:04:31 they put a bad jpeg in the pdf for this edition 12:04:39 for another variant from the same series they use vector graphics 12:04:39 ... 12:07:50 H0000-H0049 is interrupt vector table then 16384 bytes for the on chip PROM, can't do anything about that, then some reserved stuff... Then from H8000-HFB7F, external bus, then some reserved, then on-chip ram HFD80-HFF7F, then external bus at HFF80-HFF87, then HFF88-HFFFF is on-chip register field 12:08:11 Phantom_Hoover, now, some of the external address space maps to ram and some to motor control registers iirc 12:08:30 Phantom_Hoover, that should however give you an approximation 12:08:31 Hmm. 12:08:52 Phantom_Hoover, I code in C, I let brickOS handle the really low level stuff 12:09:03 Phantom_Hoover, brickOS however is smaller than the official firmware 12:09:10 Who write this in the first place? 12:09:17 s/write/wrote/ 12:09:19 Phantom_Hoover, wrote what? the doc? 12:09:27 BrickOS 12:09:44 it is on sf.net, not sure who wrote it originally 12:09:53 iirc all the original developers are long gone anyway 12:10:18 Phantom_Hoover, and I use a heavily patched version of brickOS called bibo since the sf.net project is basically dead and bitrotten 12:10:30 bitrotten? 12:10:33 yes 12:10:44 Phantom_Hoover, or did you ask what that meant? 12:10:50 Yes. 12:11:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rot 12:11:12 Phantom_Hoover, the second meaning there 12:11:12 I don't suppose it means that SF's repositories are corrupted? 12:11:16 Phantom_Hoover, no it doesn't 12:11:23 "Bit rot, also known as bit decay, data rot, or data decay, is a colloquial computing term used to describe either a gradual decay of storage media or (facetiously) the spontaneous degradation of a software program over time" 12:11:33 Phantom_Hoover, as in "no longer works with modern compilers" or similar 12:11:41 Ah. 12:11:50 Like with old IOCCC stuff. 12:11:52 Phantom_Hoover, I'm using old gcc and binutils anyway to be able to run this 12:12:34 Phantom_Hoover, well, here it usually isn't compile error, rather it is gcc configure saying: "wtf is this arch you want to make a cross compiler to? I have no idea what it is!" 12:12:41 well, not exactly those words 12:12:47 but the general gist of it ;P 12:13:30 Phantom_Hoover, or binutils, which at least support the arch as such saying "wtf, you think I support COFF for this platform? Only ELF, sorry" (again not word for word the error) 12:14:08 I am familiar with the general tone of error messages. 12:14:09 Phantom_Hoover, and then of course there is the issue of getting these old versions of binutils and gcc to compile on a modern system :D 12:14:15 I come across them frequently. 12:14:41 Phantom_Hoover, sure? the ROM of this thing has a rather funny error message if the magic string is missing from the downloaded firmware 12:14:46 well lets start with the magic string: 12:14:55 "Do you byte when I knock?" 12:14:59 the error if it is missing is: 12:15:05 "Just a bit off the block!" 12:15:25 Phantom_Hoover, I don't think that is the usual tone of the error messages ;P 12:15:32 True, but that's by LEGO. 12:15:43 Who would be more frivolous than GCC developers. 12:16:01 Phantom_Hoover, yeah but it isn't like no one sees it unless they are lego developers or hacking on custom firmware 12:16:20 Well, the world can do with some more confusion. 12:16:26 :) 12:16:35 s/no one/anyone/ 12:16:43 I got double negation there iirc 12:16:45 err 12:16:51 not iirc... 12:16:55 "as far as I can tell" 12:16:56 is better 12:17:00 meh, I need to wake up 12:17:10 Wait, what actually gives the error? 12:17:25 Phantom_Hoover, it is sent back to computer over the IR protocol 12:17:42 it is never displayed to the user by the normal apps 12:17:42 Ahh. 12:18:09 I hate being born late for the interesting things. 12:19:05 okay wtf.... 12:19:11 * AnMaster looks at his code 12:19:27 Phantom_Hoover, hm? how old are you? 12:19:46 CLASSIFIED 12:20:08 But, among other things, I only really got into computers a couple of years ago. 12:20:29 I see 12:20:37 and now. this makes no sense 12:20:47 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:21:06 Have you tried turning it off and turning it on again? 12:21:38 Phantom_Hoover, even more than that, I tried it in emulator as well, where I can input raw sensor value 12:21:43 and it still shows 0000 all the time 12:21:54 Are you sure it's plugged in? 12:22:25 the sensor? yes, the sensor in the simulation? yes even more so 12:22:37 I do see the sensor connected indication at the top of the screen anyway 12:22:39 so meh 12:22:55 wait, I forgot to bitshift the result 12:23:14 Damn, the sketch doesn't go any further 12:23:19 Phantom_Hoover, ? 12:23:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt9j80Jkc_A&feature=related 12:23:42 will check later 12:25:31 hm what is the priority of & vs. >> ? 12:25:59 ah & goes before >> 12:26:03 means I don't need parens yay 12:26:22 I very nearly typed "C operator president" into Google there. 12:29:37 XD 12:31:25 wait, there is a "display hex" routine, hidden near the end of conio.h 12:31:25 heh 12:31:28 * AnMaster uses that 12:31:42 Where's the fun in that? 12:31:52 Phantom_Hoover, that I can get on to do other stuff 12:33:27 interesting, the raw values of my two light sensors differ quite a bit for the same light level 12:33:58 one gives black as 7700, the other as 8200 12:34:02 hex that is 12:34:49 since I'm driving them as passive the internal red led in them id off 12:34:50 is* 12:36:56 wait what, one of them gives a faint glow of the red led even when in passive mode? 12:36:57 wtf 12:41:09 also values seem to vary between some runs 12:41:10 hm 12:41:23 so calibration at startup is clearly required 12:54:56 What does it actually do with the camera? 13:03:52 Phantom_Hoover, rotate it around the point of no parallax, and triggers the shutter at even intervals 13:04:00 this should make for great panoramas 13:04:09 Neat. 13:08:37 hm it is quite a pain to reach and fix things in the lower parts now, due to all the bracing and supports 13:09:41 on the other hand, it has enough bracing that it is quite feasible to lift it almost anywhere without something breaking. It is very sturdy indeed 13:14:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:19:21 Pics? 13:40:19 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:41:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:54:49 ais523! 13:54:57 hi 13:59:48 Phantom_Hoover, it isn't done yet, I have a test picture from a prototype that used my mobile phone, think I pasted link here yesterday 14:05:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:06:17 aaargh, technic beams are asymmetric... as in the hole on the side isn't vertically centred... making matching the sides of upside-down ones to ones oriented "normal" impossible 14:06:23 how to solve this issue argh 14:09:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:09:44 THAT PICTURE MADE ME REBOOT MY COMPUTER. 14:09:47 TWICE. 14:10:19 I demand the soul of your first-born child, AnMaster 14:10:57 Phantom_Hoover, why on earth did you have to reboot your computer 14:11:06 Phantom_Hoover, ... it opens just fine in gimp or such here 14:11:21 Phantom_Hoover, be happy it wasn't the 36 MB tiff version of it. 14:11:28 and that was a deflate compressed tiff 14:11:30 Firefox loads image. Firefox freezes. Whole damn computer freezes and I need to reboot. 14:11:41 Phantom_Hoover, it was about 96 MB as uncompressed tiff 14:11:47 Phantom_Hoover, works fine in firefox here too 14:12:04 slightly slow yes but goes away as soon as I close the image 14:12:24 Phantom_Hoover, and this system is a Sempron 3300+ with 1.5 GB RAM 14:12:28 hardly high-end 14:12:48 The. Soul. Of. Your. First. Born. Child. 14:13:04 You still screwed my system up. 14:13:17 no, you did :P 14:13:24 Phantom_Hoover, or maybe the firefox devs 14:13:46 I can't get the souls of their first-born children. 14:13:47 but probably not the latter since it works fine here in firefox 14:14:10 Phantom_Hoover, a bit hard here too, I have no children. It would be rather strange if I did, I'm 20 after all... 14:14:24 Yeah, I can wait. 14:14:28 :P 14:14:34 Phantom_Hoover, but you won't get it anyway 14:14:50 Phantom_Hoover, however, how could firefox freeze anything but itself? 14:14:50 O RLY? 14:15:03 Phantom_Hoover, at the worst, ctrl-atl-backspace would have killed X and every X app 14:15:08 no need to reboot then 14:15:16 I do not care. 14:15:32 Phantom_Hoover, how much RAM? 14:15:37 128 MB is my guess 14:15:40 256 max 14:15:45 2GB IIRC. 14:15:55 Phantom_Hoover, yet it works on my system with 1.5 GB? 14:15:57 without issues 14:16:17 Phantom_Hoover, and I had like 4 rows of tabs open when I tested 14:16:29 on a very large monitor with maximised firefox window 14:16:37 Wait, 4 *rows*? 14:16:45 Phantom_Hoover, yes, what about it? 14:17:12 Firefox doesn't even make tabs into rows in the first place... 14:17:20 Phantom_Hoover, fits 18 tabs in each row 14:17:25 Phantom_Hoover, tab mix plus addon 14:17:25 duh 14:17:33 Ah. 14:17:51 So you had about 80 tabs open at once? 14:18:04 Phantom_Hoover, about that yes 14:18:14 ?!?!?!? 14:18:15 I think there was one empty place on the last row 14:18:23 after the image was open that is 14:18:31 What was in them? 14:18:40 Phantom_Hoover, um, a lot of different things? 14:19:45 h8300 cross compiler stuff fills about one row, then some other RCX and general lego stuff fills quite a bit elsewhere, then some esolang pages, a bit about vhdl 14:19:51 and a lot of other misc stuff 14:32:32 Phantom_Hoover, was it you who linked to that support thing video? 14:32:40 Yes. 14:32:43 Phantom_Hoover, only had time to look at it now 14:32:53 Phantom_Hoover, and the thing the second guy said made perfect sense to me 14:32:59 To me, also. 14:33:16 well only under windows. It doesn't work like that under linux afaik 14:33:30 Well, not *perfect*, since I don't do Windows, but I know what system calls are and can guess the rest. 14:33:59 Phantom_Hoover, I messed with windows kernel debugger over serial cable once just for fun 14:34:09 so I have a fair idea of what that specific bit refers to 14:34:38 actually virtual serial cable, between two windows VMs 14:37:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:37:50 Blargh, I wish I had an idea on what to do now. 14:38:18 I am at the stage where I can feasibly implement the backpropagation algorithm, so I suppose I'll do that. 14:40:19 http://www.tomscott.com/evil/ 14:40:30 Testament to the stupidity of Facebookers. 14:43:04 I am at the stage where I can feasibly implement the backpropagation algorithm, so I suppose I'll do that. <-- ? 14:43:21 I'm doing neural networks in Lisp. 14:43:27 For an idea I had. 14:43:30 okay, I know nothing about those 14:47:24 Oh, look, I changed one line of code and I have people's phone numbers popping up on my screen. 14:52:55 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.3/20100401080539]). 15:02:42 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:18:26 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:18:27 -!- cheater99 has joined. 15:26:58 * Phantom_Hoover wants to at some point write a program that looks like it does one thing but actually does something completely different 15:32:19 -!- Axtens has joined. 15:36:22 Oh, look, I changed one line of code and I have people's phone numbers popping up on my screen. <-- what? 15:36:45 * Phantom_Hoover wants to at some point write a program that looks like it does one thing but actually does something completely different <-- a trojan? 15:36:57 or perhaps a harmless trojan 15:37:08 The link I posted above searches Facebook for groups wherein people ask their friends for numbers after losing their phone. 15:46:51 Dear god I hate computing exams. 15:48:13 mhm 15:50:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:51:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:51:44 I also hate the way this client handles ping timeouts. 15:52:56 Although I hate the exams more. 15:53:43 okay wtf: "After driving STBY low, keep RES low for a minimum delay of 0 ns, if less the RAM contents might not be retained" 15:53:50 I think someone messed up their docs 16:02:00 You must keep RES low for at LEAST no time. 16:02:08 -!- tombom_ has joined. 16:02:36 I seriously want to shoot whoever made my computing curriculum. 16:02:57 It is the only subject I have taken where actually having prior knowledge is a disadvantage. 16:05:05 haha 16:05:19 but I sympathise, the IT GCSE here was rather stupid 16:05:40 At least at my old school they didn't do Computing GCSEs at all. 16:05:43 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:05:58 Although they basically started with using the mouse and worked up at a glacial rate. 16:07:40 No, they literally started with the mouse, actually. 16:08:31 After logging in to the school system and clicking about 5 different things to start the damn thing, it assumed that you had no idea what a mouse was. 16:16:05 fuck computers 16:17:02 just saying...................... 16:17:07 Oh, the ironing! 16:17:35 I suppose you're whistling into a phone to send that to the IRC server. 16:18:11 (I know someone who knew someone who could make the dialup tone like that) 16:18:56 no i'm using a computer 16:19:14 Oh, you mean *that*. 16:19:31 Could be painful. 16:19:40 no i meant computers are stupid 16:19:46 no one likes them 16:19:54 nothing ironingbout that 16:19:57 * a 16:20:51 i hate insert, no one has ever had any use for the button, not one single use, and still it's there, and also it seems like there's some button combination that puts it on other than the insert button which i haven't figured out because occasionally insert is just on for no reason 16:20:59 HATEHATEHATEHATEIT 16:21:46 Insert is extremely useful when you're programming in fungoids. 16:22:02 shit... that's probably true 16:22:07 -!- relet has joined. 16:22:36 okay so maybe those 5 people in the universe that program in fungoids are happy about insert 16:23:11 Pause/Break, now *that's* useless. 16:24:26 you're clearly better at having opinions than me 16:25:30 I don't use insert, I use R in vim 16:25:43 so just 4 people 16:26:23 And I don't think I used it even before I began using vim to program fungeoids 16:26:53 and Deewiant is better at having MY OPINIONS, this is not a good day. 16:27:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:27:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:27:27 No, wait. 16:27:37 I wish vim had reverse replace, though 16:27:40 The Everest peak of useless keys is Scroll Lock. 16:27:46 IT DOES NOTHING AT ALL. 16:27:48 but I sympathise, the IT GCSE here was rather stupid <-- GCSE? 16:27:50 EVER. 16:27:54 EVEREVEREVER. 16:28:01 Phantom_Hoover, scroll lock does useful things 16:28:02 AnMaster: an exam done at the age of 16 16:28:15 prevents terminal continue to scroll 16:28:20 so you can read what is on it, then continue 16:28:24 well at least in theory 16:28:28 enough to get you into low-end jobs like supermarket shelf-stacking, and good GCSE results are needed to be accepted into college so you can try for A-levels 16:28:34 From the vim docs: "There is no reverse replace mode (yet)." 16:28:45 AnMaster: General Certificate of Standard Education 16:28:51 Deewiant, what would reverse replace do? 16:28:58 ais523: Surely not? 16:29:18 Wow the English system is weirder than I thought. 16:29:22 this kb doesn't have scroll lok 16:29:25 Phantom_Hoover: the college I went to required five Bs at GCSE in order to consider people for A-level 16:29:25 *lock 16:29:26 AnMaster: Same as reverse insert, but replace instead of insert. 16:29:31 Phantom_Hoover, so how old are you? I don't think I got an answer last time I asked.. 16:29:41 as far as I can tell, if you fail your GCSEs you're destined to become a criminal or a prostitute or something 16:29:42 You do A-level in college in England? 16:29:44 Phantom_Hoover: did 16:29:49 Phantom_Hoover, unless stated otherwise I will assume 16 ;P 16:29:53 I'm doing a PhD atm, though 16:30:00 Phantom_Hoover, btw which country are you in? 16:30:02 AnMaster: [DATA EXPUNGED] 16:30:06 And Scotland. 16:30:08 ah 16:30:11 and that's "6th-form college" 16:30:15 wait, UK has different systems!? 16:30:19 Indeed. 16:30:24 wtf 16:30:25 wow, you're so lucky, I've heard that the Scottish education system is a lot more sensible than the one in England and Wales 16:30:32 Phantom_Hoover, also, how often do you wear a kilt and play the bagpipe? ;P 16:30:35 * AnMaster runs 16:30:36 The Scottish one was made by some monkeys on an undisclosed ut powerful drug. 16:30:39 there's one for England and Wales, a different one for Scotland, and a different one for Northern Ireland 16:30:52 THERE ARE 4 TYPES OF FAIL AT STANDARD GRADE. 16:31:07 AND IT USES A DIFFERENT GRADING SYSTEM TO EVERYTHING ELSE> 16:31:17 Phantom_Hoover: in theory, there are three types of fail at GCSE in England 16:31:18 AND IT'S COMPOSED OF THREE DIFFERENT EXAMS. 16:31:23 AnMaster: Same as reverse insert, but replace instead of insert. <-- reverse inset? 16:31:25 insert* 16:31:36 Deewiant, I have no clue what that would do 16:31:45 :he ins-reverse 16:31:48 in practice, there's more like five or six, because D, E, and sometimes C are technically passing grades, but not accepted by most companies 16:32:00 or colleges 16:32:00 Deewiant, "vim: command not found", there is vi though, heirloom toolkit vi 16:32:12 AnMaster: why do you not have vim installed? 16:32:16 I have it installed even though I hardly ever use it 16:32:22 The full set of Scottish exams: Standard Grade (Foundation, General and Credit), Int 1 and 2, something called Access 3 if you're too stupid to live, Higher and Advanced Higher. 16:32:23 -!- Axtens has quit (Quit: bedtime). 16:32:34 everything before university is completely useless, why do they bother testing people who haven't been taught anything yet 16:32:44 ais523, I never use it, it is incompatible with me. It always wants to be in another mode than me. And so on 16:32:47 who cares what random bits of information or understanding they have in their head 16:32:53 oklopol: to justify not having taught them anything useful for years 16:33:05 oklopol: They do teach you stuff. Not much stuff, though. 16:33:18 ugh National Curriculum 16:33:19 AnMaster: The vim docs are online, just google +vim +ins-reverse 16:33:22 Deewiant, so is it just like typing abcd would give dcba? 16:33:31 well i understand the bureaucratical reasons, that wasn't actually a question 16:33:37 AnMaster: Yep 16:33:40 kay 16:33:57 Deewiant, where does the cursor move during this? 16:34:02 or does it stay still? 16:34:05 It stays still 16:34:15 Phantom_Hoover: yes maybe, but i sometimes exaggerate 16:34:18 Deewiant, relative which margin? 16:34:19 for fun 16:34:24 It stays still 16:34:38 Deewiant, after all normal insert would stay still relative the right margin 16:34:43 although i guess i'm totally serious 16:34:53 Deewiant, so I assume it stays still relative the left margin in this case 16:35:04 Incidentally, Ireland uses GCSE as well. 16:35:05 Right, you can think of it like that if you like 16:35:11 *Northern 16:35:15 Deewiant, :) 16:35:26 Deewiant, reverse overwrite would be useful for befunge editing I suppose 16:35:33 Yep 16:36:19 M-x picture-mode 16:36:39 as well as forwards and backwards, it lets you write vertically or even diagonally 16:36:41 it's great for Befunge 16:37:12 ais523, what about a delta of 3,4 16:37:12 -!- lament has joined. 16:37:24 doesn't do that AFAIK 16:37:27 but nothing's perfect 16:39:30 If only emacs had good text editing capabilities 16:40:22 can you somehow tell Chanserv to stdu or at least skip that standard message for you? 16:40:50 I'm not sure 16:41:01 /ignore ChanServ might work, but there are other reasons why that might be a bad idea 16:42:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:45:03 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:47:11 indeed 16:47:52 can you somehow tell Chanserv to stdu or at least skip that standard message for you? <-- does it hurt? 16:48:10 I mean, it seems like a small detail not worth bothering about to me 16:48:17 I get private messages in a different tab. it's just annoying. 16:48:30 relet, afaik chanserv sends notices 16:48:41 and hm I think the entry message is set per channel? 16:49:03 no clue if #esoteric has one set 16:49:13 * AnMaster uses a bouncer and wouldn't notice it 16:49:48 it's the first channel that does from many I have been in lately. 16:50:32 I mean, you could just use a meaningful topic, if you really want to tell people what the channel is about. :D 16:50:51 relet, the /topic? 16:50:56 that isn't related to chanserv at all 16:51:11 relet, and I think tradition dictates we have silly stuff in /topic 16:51:27 and that's a good tradition, I think. 16:51:54 and logs, but that is some freenode rule that says that if a channel have public logs, then it must be mentioned in /topic 16:51:56 or something like that 16:52:33 I wouldn't mind if ChanServ sent me a new silly message every time I join. 16:52:57 it's the blandness of it that makes it annoying 16:52:57 XD 16:53:06 relet, what message was it for this channel 16:53:26 iirc there is/was some random "do not troll" message sent randomly during some joins 16:53:30 See.. I already forgot... let me check. 16:53:36 -!- relet has left (?). 16:53:37 -!- relet has joined. 16:53:44 hm? 16:53:52 ChanServ: (notice) [#esoteric] Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Check out our wiki: http://www.esolangs.org 16:53:55 ah 16:53:59 well that is set per channel 16:54:08 no clue who has access to change it 16:54:12 lament I guess 16:54:17 maybe oerjan 16:54:23 and, it seems quite sane 16:54:39 relet, after all, we do get some people here every now and then who think it is about esoterica.... 16:54:49 You could just mention the url in the topic. Welcome messages are so Web 1.0 16:55:01 relet, hey, irc is so web 0.0.1 16:55:06 With topics like the current one, I'm not surprised 16:55:08 apart from the fact it isn't web 16:55:16 Deewiant, well there is the entry message... 16:55:26 also alise set it. go figure 16:55:38 I usually miss the entry message since it goes in the server-messages window 16:55:47 oerjan changed the welcome a couple of days ago. 16:55:56 I was complaining about the dead link in it. 16:56:05 Deewiant, does it refer to "norton utilities" you think? 16:56:19 Unlike you, I don't think everything is a reference 16:56:32 Deewiant, it would be rather silly though if it did 16:56:36 wassup guise 16:57:06 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Insert topic here | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Do not insert topic here.. 16:57:56 NO! Do not disrespect Emperor Norton! 16:58:01 XD 16:58:16 He was real, you know. Google it. 16:59:22 ?? 16:59:28 And he had nothing to do with Norton Security 16:59:41 oh a lunatic 17:01:00 An AWESOME lunatic. 17:01:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:01:13 well yes 17:01:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:01:28 well yes 17:01:36 and wrong button I presume? 17:01:58 AnMaster: An AWESOME lunatic. 17:02:33 Bloody connection. 17:02:41 Phantom_Hoover, that got through 17:02:52 to which I replied what I said 17:02:57 conmunidad 17:03:03 Phantom_Hoover, also it wasn't you connection: "* Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving)" 17:03:11 that would be a QUIT :Leaving 17:03:13 from the client 17:03:45 That's mainly because the ping goes funny and once the connection is restored sanity does not return. 17:10:57 strnage 17:10:59 strange* 17:23:20 -!- jamesstanley has joined. 17:26:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:26:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:26:54 fungot 17:26:55 Phantom_Hoover: the thing is " quantum-complete"? -g ( was that fnord thing too. :) :( putty doesn't like that 17:31:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:34:34 PARTY 17:34:46 COMMUNIST! 17:35:02 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 17:36:56 okay now i have over 5 years worth of university credits 17:39:33 ! 17:39:58 how many physical years have you done, i forget 17:40:53 2-3? 17:40:56 two, although i didn't do anything during this last period, so i guess more like 1.75; although this is a bit of a lie because i did stuff during high school (almost 50 points, i now have 307 and 320 or something after i return my bachelor's) 17:41:05 (actually maybe more like 40) 17:41:14 (or 30) 17:41:16 (or 50) 17:41:34 (60 being the "expected" amount per year) 17:42:15 ok so you have superhuman endurance. got it. 17:42:15 people seem to get much less done on average here, or maybe everyone i know is just slow 17:42:35 and then there's a few who do more 17:43:31 in the it dep you could pretty much just take all the courses, if i didn't aim for a 5.0 average i could do that and still spend my weekends partying like a monkey 17:44:04 unfortunately i don't like computers 17:44:37 i take it you never use computers then. 17:44:55 i see no obvious contradictions in that conclusion. 17:45:35 phantom made the same remark 17:45:45 huh 17:46:04 it's the people that make irc enjoyable, not the computer 17:46:13 but i do use this thing for other things 17:46:22 but i'm not proud of it 17:46:26 actually i totally am 17:46:38 i'm so fucking proud i could write a song about it 17:47:15 not gonna tho 17:47:18 or maybe i will 17:50:20 I demand the soul of your first-born child, AnMaster 17:50:36 so clearly phantom hoover = soul collector 17:54:30 I don't use insert, I use R in vim <-- i sometimes use Insert in vim, it toggles between R and i modes after all 17:55:48 i thought that was some sort of chuck norris doesn't use insert joke kind of thing type of anecdote 17:55:51 at first 17:56:03 but it wasn't very funny 17:56:33 well naturally chuck norris doesn't use insert, since he never makes any errors he just types the entire file from start to finish 17:58:17 oerjan, arrow keys are broken in vim IMO. And so is enter at end of line in the middle of the file, and backspace at start of line 17:58:18 iirc 17:58:27 on the whole vim is very wtf 17:58:34 even ed makes more sense 17:58:51 AnMaster: i don't recall how arrow keys or enter are broken 17:59:37 oerjan: Aye, but I never (as far as I can recall) feel the need to do that 17:59:38 there are a number of settings to change their behavior, though 18:00:17 oerjan, in vi? 18:00:22 or vim? 18:00:28 they seem about equally bad to me 18:00:34 i don't know vi specifically 18:00:37 nah, emacs for me, or nano. 18:00:52 nano is quite nice for quick config file editing as root 18:00:55 AnMaster: you still haven't explained _how_ they are broken 18:01:19 oerjan, well, iirc, enter took me to next line, didn't insert a newline 18:01:20 or such 18:01:31 oerjan, this was years ago 18:01:36 I just remember the brokenness 18:01:38 not the details 18:01:42 AnMaster: you were probably in normal rather than insert mode 18:01:43 oerjan: what os do you use? 18:01:51 since I avoided /vim?/ since then 18:01:57 oerjan, IMO insert is the normal mode of editing 18:01:58 oklopol: windows XP 18:02:02 oerjan, overwrite is not the normal 18:02:06 oerjan: lol only noobs use windows 18:02:18 AnMaster: sure, and i just tested here and enter certainly starts a new line 18:02:19 didn 18:02:33 oklopol, didn't* ehird use windows95 for a bit? 18:02:39 I mean, like during last year 18:02:55 AnMaster: oh and by insert mode i don't mean the overwrite/insert distinction 18:03:08 oerjan, then what do you mean? 18:03:14 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Saliendo). 18:03:14 the command mode? 18:03:20 pretty sure it wasn't that 18:03:42 It probably was since that's what enter does by default in normal mode 18:03:48 oerjan, there is only one vi(m) command worth remembering: 18:03:48 AnMaster: what i mean is the distinction between normal (command) and insert mode is the fundamental one in vi(m) 18:03:51 :q! 18:03:52 (Command mode exists and is not normal mode) 18:04:07 heh right 18:04:09 just in case you start it due to a typo of a command 18:04:21 There's only one emacs command worth remembering: C-x C-c 18:04:35 har 18:04:42 Deewiant, nano then? 18:04:46 AnMaster: oh whatever you're just trolling 18:04:52 Not even worth remembering anything for nano :-P 18:05:04 Deewiant, yeah it has that list at the bottom 18:05:06 helpful I guess 18:05:26 anyway, nano is quite nice IMO for simple stuff where you don't need syntax highlight 18:05:30 such as editing fstab or whatever 18:06:01 vim is better :-P 18:06:17 Deewiant, ed! 18:06:23 No, not ed. 18:06:36 Deewiant, yes, ed 18:06:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:07:04 men jag skulle inte svära ed på att ed är bäst ;P 18:07:26 oh wait, ais523 joined, I thought the only active people knew Swedish... meh can't translate the joke really 18:07:43 (due to it being a pun) 18:07:47 * pikhq_ has been a-lurking 18:08:09 pikhq_, well, translating puns is hard. Suffice to say "ed" is a Swedish word 18:08:09 AnMaster: Oh? 18:08:19 meaning "oath" 18:08:21 yep 18:08:35 Sadly, "Ed" is but a name in English. 18:08:49 I'm going to guess that's cognate with "oath". 18:09:03 probably. 18:09:27 the german is "Eid" iirc 18:09:49 Not "Schwur"? 18:10:03 Evidently both. 18:10:14 sounds like "swear"? 18:10:28 from schweren right 18:10:32 "svära" would be the cognate of those 18:10:50 ich hab einen schwur geschworen 18:10:52 (no:sverge) 18:11:39 *sverige 18:11:52 i was not going to point out that 18:12:14 (they're not pronounced the same though, hard vs. soft g) 18:12:36 oerjan, yep 18:12:46 (wrt svära) 18:12:47 the swedish sound is neither of the english g's 18:12:58 i don't know what hard and soft mean 18:13:06 no more like english y 18:13:11 *no, 18:13:15 is the soft or hard one? 18:13:21 or both 18:13:22 that's the soft one 18:13:24 okay 18:13:41 oerjan, you mean like "sverje"? 18:13:42 g historically turns to the same as j in front of frontal vowels 18:13:45 AnMaster: yes 18:13:55 yes, sverje is how swedes pronounce it 18:14:02 oerjan, well yes that is how you pronounce it, but _iirc_ there are some dialects where this is not true 18:14:08 forgot which ones 18:14:12 oklopol: also norwegians, for the most part 18:14:38 oerjan, and we pronounce Norge as Norje unless we are trying to imitate Norwegians 18:14:50 otoh norge is pronounced with a hard g in norwegian 18:14:57 oerjan, yes, but not in Swedish 18:14:58 i read that as "irritate norwegians" 18:15:05 oklopol: THAT TOO 18:15:09 oklopol, that too maybe. Don't know how they feel about it 18:15:10 :D 18:15:23 oerjan, argh, how did you learn to write that fast? 18:15:39 yeah how can you write two words faster than AnMaster can write a sentence 18:15:41 I figured I had a lot of time 18:15:55 oklopol, exactly! oerjan is a very slow typer! 18:16:05 "Norge, Norge, det är ett ruttet land" 18:16:06 well... was, yesterday 18:16:18 oerjan, do ruttet mean the same as in Swedish? 18:16:25 AnMaster: that _is_ swedish 18:16:30 oh 18:16:34 i'm an okay typer but i'm a very slow thinker 18:16:34 norwegian would be "rottent", i think 18:16:40 *råttent 18:16:54 oerjan, also no, it is greasy, from all that oil 18:17:15 major distinction 18:17:18 oh? 18:17:32 oerjan, yeah, your oil platforms 18:17:37 * oerjan isn't sure whether's he's being trolled right now 18:18:13 oerjan, more like absurd humour 18:18:20 oerjan, if you were allowed that recently so am I! 18:18:21 * oerjan googles and concludes AnMaster is lying 18:18:34 oerjan, what? 18:18:38 ruttet definitely means rotten 18:18:38 about it being absurd humor? 18:18:51 not greasy 18:18:51 oerjan, oh I didn't mean rutten = oily 18:18:57 I meant Norway was oily, not rotten 18:18:58 ;P 18:19:08 AnMaster: ah well 18:19:38 oerjan, nearly slipped outside the Fram museum.... 18:19:40 most of the oil is exported anyway 18:19:42 dangerous stuff... 18:22:08 From the vim docs: "There is no reverse replace mode (yet)." <-- you'd probably want all four, or is it eight, directions available, like emacs picture mode 18:22:22 oerjan++ 18:22:28 oerjan, also ais523 mentioned that... 18:22:54 Deewiant, anyway, how tricky could it be writing a few line of whatever scripting language vim uses to add that feature 18:23:01 that picture mode is more or less the only reason i've sometimes in the past considered emacs 18:23:03 if it is like in emacs, not very tricky 18:23:04 oerjan: Ideally, yes, but for starters, that'd be nice :-) 18:23:13 Probably very tricky 18:23:16 Deewiant, what? 18:23:21 what sort of shitty software is that 18:23:23 I don't think you can add new modes 18:23:43 Deewiant, why not 18:23:50 how are the existing ones added? 18:23:56 In C. 18:24:00 wtf 18:24:04 stupid design 18:24:21 Deewiant, aren't the keys just mapped to some "insert self" function? 18:24:36 so you could override that with some more complex thing 18:24:46 In insert mode, yes 18:24:47 like you can do in emacs (note: note sure if picture mode does it like that or not) 18:25:09 you can certainly override on a per-character basis, don't know about at large 18:25:10 I suppose it could be possible somehow 18:25:20 There may be an autocmd for "character inserted" 18:25:26 Deewiant, so then just add something that replaces the hook for key press to be something else than self insert 18:25:27 If not, you'd have to map every possible character 18:25:39 (by defining insertion mode abbreviations) 18:25:47 AnMaster: Right: they're not "insert self", they're "insert " 18:25:54 hm or wait 18:26:04 Deewiant, okay 18:26:09 -!- jabb_ has joined. 18:26:15 !!! 18:26:16 Deewiant, how does that interact with different keyboard layouts? 18:26:23 jabb_: ??? 18:26:56 AnMaster: It works. The default insert mappings are magic, I'm pretty sure. 18:27:02 Deewiant, heh 18:27:07 I.e. they're not mapped. 18:27:09 Or something. 18:27:22 Deewiant, vim's code base sounds like a mess 18:27:33 Deewiant, and the scripting capabilities sound very limited 18:27:41 Don't know about the code, but the scripting is limited, yes. 18:28:03 Lot less limited than a lot of more "normal" editors', but certainly much more limited than emacs's 18:28:39 hm abbreviations don't do what i meant, so i guess it's mappings 18:28:57 I'm not sure if you even can imap an ordinary letter 18:29:03 I wonder if picture-mode and viper interacts badly or not 18:29:10 that might be a solution for Deewiant 18:29:13 viper sucks 18:29:15 vimpulse sucks 18:29:23 vimpulse? never heard of it 18:29:33 and viper, I never used, didn't see the point 18:29:53 oerjan, btw, why did you consider emacs due to the picture mode? 18:30:19 fung 18:30:20 Deewiant: :imap a b works fine 18:30:29 Alright, cool 18:30:38 AnMaster: fungoids, ascii graphics 18:30:47 oh 18:30:51 oerjan, ah, don't remember you doing much with fungoids? 18:31:01 he's done more than you 18:31:05 what ascii graphics? 18:31:17 There's also a CursorMovedI event 18:31:23 no i _started_ an unlambda interpreter but never finished more than the parser 18:31:31 Which may or may not activate on insertion 18:31:51 so probably it was 98 18:32:01 yeah 18:32:28 at least something with unlimited fungespace 18:32:33 unlambda parser in 93 sounds like quite an exercise in concise 18:32:38 well right 18:32:49 my only befunge program is 93 with unlimited fs 18:33:05 i don't even remember what it does wait yes i do 18:35:09 Deewiant, wait, did you mean "I haven't tested yet, and not documented" or "specifically documented as "may or may not activate on insertion"? 18:35:46 AnMaster: It's not that retarded :-P 18:36:31 heh 18:36:57 oklopol, what does it do? 18:37:33 Deewiant, btw do you have a 93 version of your "generate befunge number" script? 18:37:48 I wouldn't call it a script 18:37:49 it's a calculator with single digit numbers..... 18:37:51 And it supports 93 18:38:21 i didn't have much ambition back then i guess 18:38:22 Deewiant, ah nice, forgot if you made it public... 18:38:31 By default it uses decimal, hex, and ASCII printable chars; you can config it to use only decimal, only decimal+hex, or decimal,hex,latin1 18:38:38 Not sure if I've put it up anywhere 18:38:49 Deewiant, okay can you generate 1208925819614629174706176 in befunge98 for me 18:39:07 I'm not sure 18:39:10 Deewiant, oh? 18:39:12 Let me see if I have the binary anywhere 18:39:37 assuming it support bignum, that is more than 2^64 18:39:54 Found it 18:39:58 4'@'@::**:*:*** 18:40:12 hm 18:40:29 Deewiant, I guess powers of two are quite easy 18:40:34 yeah 18:40:41 Speed depends mostly on the speed of factor(1) on it 18:40:47 Deewiant, does it only do multiplications? Or addition as well? 18:41:03 How would you get primes without addition :-P 18:41:19 tricky 18:41:25 Deewiant, indeed 18:41:44 It used to do subtraction too but it didn't seem to help much so I removed it 18:42:09 i don't think i've actually ever needed subtraction for anything 18:42:49 i think they just have it for like completeness, because there's addition so it makes sense to have a kind of antiddition 18:42:50 oklopol: you and your positive-only thinking 18:42:54 Deewiant, what about 956960600005639447752170498370241 18:43:07 Deewiant, hint: this is two large primes multiplied 18:43:08 'G'!8"++1}r"+']45'@**+******+"/*H"f' '@*+"IT@"f4+**+":KuQ"d4'@*+***+****+* 18:43:13 Deewiant, okay fast computer 18:43:18 A school computer 18:43:29 Deewiant, that could mean anything 18:43:29 I'm in Windows so I don't have access to it on my own computer 18:43:41 Seems to be a bit worse than my machine 18:43:44 might be smaller to just write "that number"(convert to number) 18:43:46 model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q9400 @ 2.66GHz 18:44:02 but i guess that's been pointed out at some point because it's kind of a trivial observation 18:44:07 It has 18:44:08 oklopol, subtraction is just addition of negative numbers after all 18:44:14 And "convert to number" is long 18:44:36 AnMaster: i don't think i've ever actually seen a negative number outside textbooks 18:44:49 Deewiant, challenge: 131270734444548411694897002275486554358434553057 18:44:52 it's an interesting concept yes, but it's not actually very useful 18:45:08 oklopol, eh, -2 C outside or such? 18:45:10 yeah Deewiant how well can your code call the factor program someone else coded for that number?!? 18:45:11 that is a negative number 18:45:25 oklopol, and you never look at thermometers I assume 18:45:34 err everyone sane uses kelvins 18:45:38 well sure 18:45:55 in finland most people don't even know negative numbers exist 18:46:03 Everyone sane uses Fahrenheit. And not this newfangled "0 < 1" scale either! 18:46:10 oklopol, but normal temps on normal "how cold is it outside today" style thermometers use C I assume? 18:46:24 pikhq_, was Fahrenheit upside down as well? 18:46:27 originally I meant 18:46:32 no i think they use kelvins 18:46:55 Deewiant, any comments on this? You live in Finland and you are saner than oklopol 18:47:08 Nobody uses Kelvins :-P 18:47:09 so what scale do common, non-scientific thermometers use? 18:47:16 Centigrade 18:47:56 Deewiant, right, as I suspected. You only use kelvin if doing stuff with liquid nitrogen or colder. Or for things with temperature around that of the sun 18:48:16 i've never even TASTED someone use anything but kelvins in binary 18:48:27 oh wait 18:48:41 why would anyone use a scale that has 100 so deeply integrated in its guts 18:48:43 Well I guess scientists use mostly Kelvin in most countries 18:48:46 that's a horrible number 18:48:48 or of course for white point in colour calibration 18:49:07 Deewiant, yep. But I doubt they use it to talk about how cold it was while waiting for the bus this morning ;P 18:49:11 maybe it's best not to think about temperatures at all 18:49:14 Quite 18:49:23 oklopol: kelvin also has 100 deeply ingrained, it's just a bit better hidden 18:49:30 oerjan: i just said taht 18:49:31 *that 18:49:44 "oh wait" 18:49:51 because i realized kelvins in binary doesn't help 18:49:59 oh 18:50:14 because nonsensical bases are fun? 18:50:29 then again who the fuck gives a shit about water so i guess it's okay that the random number 100 is associated with it 18:50:34 or wait 18:50:39 actually i love water 18:50:42 base 10 doesn't really make any sense except anatomically 18:50:46 i was swimming yesterday 18:50:51 water is so deliciously wet 18:50:59 4.5 meters deep no one can judge ya 18:51:06 ? 18:51:14 i mostly dive when i'm swimming 18:51:18 ah 18:51:50 because the other thing i like to do is play in the shallow end and it's embarrassing because i'm not 7. 18:51:59 AnMaster: factor(1) seems to be failing on that number 18:52:10 Mathematica can do it in 7 seconds on my home machine 18:52:15 There are a lot of derivations of brainfuck... 18:52:27 jabb_: yes, and none of them is as cool as toi 18:52:53 AnMaster: Cheating: "/*H"f' '@*+"IT@"f4+**+":KuQ"d4'@*+***+****+7'!8'/5'b'@*+'o4'@'U3'@*+**+'+'H2b'@***+")@OyA0@"*+***+******+* 18:53:14 your program has an option to give the factorization? 18:53:22 No 18:53:23 even tho you're using it from the binary 18:53:27 so very cheat okay 18:53:33 i forgot humans can write code too 18:53:47 I just fungified the two factors I got from Mathematica separately and appended * 18:54:05 The program would've done the same thing eventually 18:54:15 actually i realized that before i even said what i said 18:54:19 but i had to empty my queue 18:54:33 okay 18:54:35 Deewiant, how is it cheating? 18:54:45 why don't you use but one dimension 18:54:47 Deewiant, as in, you did it in two parts? 18:54:49 Because the program didn't do it all by itself 18:54:52 AnMaster: because it was a challenge for the program 18:54:59 Deewiant, ah 18:55:18 oh okay he didn't understand the part you explicitly said a few lines ago 18:55:22 Deewiant, what algorithm do you use for factorisation? 18:55:26 i thought he didn't understand how that was cheating 18:55:31 oklopol, I was reading scrollback 18:55:31 AnMaster: factor(1) 18:55:37 got a bit busy there 18:55:46 Deewiant, ah, you invoke an external program. I see 18:55:46 As I've said or implied a couple of times now 18:56:02 AnMaster: yes i know i just don't like misreading people's minds 18:56:04 AnMaster: Because factor(1) is much better than anything I could come up with :-P 18:56:10 it's a factor to reckon with 18:56:27 Deewiant, shell out to mathematica? ;P 18:56:33 or W|A 18:57:03 W|A doesn't answer 18:57:11 i actually have no idea what the best factorization algos are 18:57:18 what are they, please go through them in detail 18:57:22 Mathematica could work but then I'd have to check whether it exists, for factor(1) I can just assume it :-P 18:57:43 Deewiant, so fall back on factor? 18:58:05 knowing mathematica you should probably check the answer is correct, too... 18:58:08 Deewiant, also you can't assume factor. I'm almost completely certain it isn't POSIX 18:58:23 oklopol: "FactorInteger switches between trial division, Pollard p-1, Pollard rho, elliptic curve and quadratic sieve algorithms. " 18:58:37 AnMaster: Of course I can fall back but I'd still have to check something 18:58:44 AnMaster: For factor(1) I can reasonably list it as a dependency 18:58:51 okay so i know two of those 18:59:13 actually i've heard of elliptic curve methods but no idea how they would help 18:59:29 Deewiant, heh 19:00:33 oklopol, all I know is that they are linked to a lot of stuff that concerns cryptography 19:00:37 oklopol: factor evidently uses Pollard rho: http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/factor-invocation.html 19:00:43 lol ok 19:00:48 And it says that it's bad for numbers with big factors 19:00:57 "for example, numbers which are the product of two large primes" 19:01:01 * Deewiant leers at AnMaster and his number 19:01:14 Deewiant, I knew factor had that issue yes 19:01:15 isn't pollard rho like 2^sqrt(n) 19:01:22 No clue 19:01:24 Deewiant, not the details of why 19:01:30 I only know trial division 19:01:36 errrrrrrr 19:01:46 Deewiant, it manages just fine on one large and several small 19:01:59 yes possibly it could be that, i seem to have forgotten how it works 19:02:06 Deewiant, so what I did, enter some large random numbers, until I got some large primes, then multiplied them 19:02:11 actually i guess it couldn't 19:02:21 because that's the complexity of trial division 19:02:40 no umm 19:02:43 okay i'm being a retard 19:02:48 someone kick me 19:02:56 * Deewiant kicks oklopol 19:06:26 helloklopol 19:06:52 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 19:06:55 WOW 19:07:05 ...so my shrooming adventures bore no fruit. 19:07:12 I found some really cool red mushrooms though. 19:07:20 but they'd probably kill me if I ate them. No good. 19:07:23 yeah drugs are never the answer 19:07:29 psh, 19:07:34 that's what you think. 19:07:57 shrooms are the only thing that's not shit. 19:08:17 as far as drugs. 19:08:39 in any case, I've got some cool ideas for a stack based language. I just need to figure out a ridgid semantics. 19:09:04 I think I'll use an assembly like syntax, to make it like a VM intermediate. 19:09:33 er... tree-based, not stack. Technically graph -- since there's both hard and soft references. 19:14:20 why do you want a distinction? 19:15:04 shrooms are the only thing that's not shit. 19:15:04 as far as drugs. 19:15:04 in any case, I've got some cool ideas for a stack based language. I just need to figure out a ridgid semantics. 19:15:09 XD 19:15:54 that might be an usable way to invent new esolangs: get high and have crazy ideas 19:16:03 you'd think so 19:16:10 but not ime 19:16:33 what's less crap (for IM, not irc) 19:16:38 basically the language builds a huge tree, where the data constructors are bytes, floats, symbols, references (soft), and links (hard). Nodes are implitcitly enumerated and optionally named with a file-system like structures to handle scoping. The nodes can also be explicitly named and unenumerated (by giving it a name that with a dot) 19:16:42 pidgin or telepathy? 19:16:43 AnMaster: and yes, it definitely is. 19:17:05 telepathy is better 19:17:16 why? 19:17:27 is telepathy a program? 19:17:39 yes 19:17:43 otherwise your question makes no sense 19:17:43 okay. 19:17:57 then i retract my statement 19:18:39 i just know pidgin is crap (i extrapolate this from knowing it's aprogram) 19:18:40 there's no convention, but methods can be defined by storing operations in the tree without using the call operation on a symbol. Call basically is basically a goto instruction for symbols, and will move control flow to the branch in the tree with the given name. The "call" instruction also sets a .return link within the method program-tree 19:18:41 *a program 19:19:31 which can be used as a reference to the calling code... to do anything with (such as evaluate and return control flow, but it doesn't have to do either, thus allowing arbitrary control flow due to being embedded within the data structure of the language) 19:20:07 * AnMaster prods laptop 19:20:13 that was an odd failure mode for X 19:20:15 or gnome 19:20:17 or whatever 19:20:55 like, clicking stuff like buttons didn't do anything, clicking other apps in the taskbar sometimes worked, clicking inactive window did nothing. Clicking tabs in a window worked 19:20:57 -!- hiato has joined. 19:20:59 this applied to all programs 19:21:06 restarting X "fixed" it 19:21:18 nothing strange like dbus crashing or such in the logs 19:22:10 there would be textual macros as well... to shorten the source code itself, along with the lisp-like "runtime macros", because they can arbitrarily change the structure of the calling codes neighboring nodes. The typical "standard function" semantic would be to have arguments as the children of the function symbol node. So you make a function symbol with argument children and do the call instruction on the symbol, and then the fu 19:22:19 CakeProphet: "and then the fu" 19:22:26 ... :) 19:22:52 I recommend a client that can auto-split lines so you don't have to worry about cutoff 19:23:01 CakeProphet, your client cut it off there 19:23:04 that is what Deewiant meant 19:23:11 CakeProphet, what was after it 19:23:21 and then the function will destroy the childre and replace the calling symbol with the result. 19:24:21 by accessing .return . Oh and the unenumerated .. node represents a parent. 19:24:28 oh right you're talking about trees 19:24:47 so reference .return/.. would reference the calling nodes parent. 19:25:10 the destroy the children function sounded weird out of context 19:25:16 ... :) 19:25:30 * cheater99 destroys oklopol's children 19:25:31 ...also, filesystem - in tree 19:25:31 cheater99, not using IM is better 19:25:47 AnMaster, you are such a useful and purposeful person 19:25:50 cheater99, or: two tin cans with a bit of string in between 19:25:54 that works really well 19:25:58 the root of the tree is builtin to each program. Stuff like system resources... the file system even as part of the tree. 19:25:58 but think about the children! 19:26:04 cheater99, :) 19:26:39 oklopol, that is what he did. You forget to say he shouldn't think nasty things about them 19:28:07 so to define methods, you'd append children to /f... because it's the standard place to store functions in order to seperate them from the code data. 19:28:16 *functions lol, methods..... too much Java programming. 19:30:32 cheater99: yes think only good things about my children, BUT NOT *TOO* GOOD 19:30:54 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:30:55 OO would be simulated with graphs I guess. You could store methods in a sub-node 19:31:20 hm methods should have several member classes, which contain namespaces contain aspect oriented templates with lot of buzz words 19:31:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:31:28 interesting observation, "ninety nine" means "fucking, i fuck" in finnish 19:31:43 (when pronounced) 19:31:48 Like "I fuck while fucking"? 19:31:50 sadly that isn't very esoteric, it is just java + C++ rotated 180° 19:32:04 no, ungrammatical "act of fucking i fuck" 19:32:28 this was tons of fun when i was 5 19:32:41 at least you don't have the issue that Swedish has. en:six = sv:sex 19:33:03 oklopol, what is "six" in finnish? 19:33:14 "kuusi" 19:33:21 yoface 19:33:35 heh 19:34:15 AnMaster: don't you have a word for sex that sounds like sex? 19:34:45 'seksii taimii' 19:35:04 ... 19:36:10 oklopol: Actually not since the t in "ninety" is aspirated 19:36:29 oklopol, well yes, en:sex == sv:sex as well. But that is a relatively new word for the concept I think 19:36:33 "Ninety" can be pronounced a bunch of ways. 19:36:35 (in Swedish that is) 19:37:04 "Nainti" is the most proper pronunciation; you can also hear "naindi" or "naini". 19:37:13 uorygl: but none of them is the finnish one 19:37:15 If not aspirated, it's voiced 19:37:19 if it's not aspirated 19:37:20 err 19:37:22 what Deewiant said 19:38:26 what is 'aspirated'? 19:38:27 anyway t is always aspirated so i consider it close enough 19:38:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspiration_%28phonetics%29 19:39:25 maybe i shouldn't but at least my mother not unlike yours 19:39:59 or maybe i should've said "not my mother" because not unlike is well whatever 19:40:51 Typos and lack of quotes are a confusing combination. 19:41:50 i typoed? 19:42:04 I don't know; I'm too confused. 19:42:26 i usually catch my typos and correct them 19:42:45 but you can ask Deewiant how that's parsed if it's too hard 19:43:07 Who said what to me? 19:43:09 Neither "Maybe I shouldn't but at least my mother not unlike yours" neither ". . . because not unlike is well whatever" seems like English syntax. 19:43:35 Phantom_Hoover: oerjan quoted you. 19:43:39 12:49:56 < oerjan> I demand the soul of your first-born child, AnMaster 19:43:47 "neither .. neither .." doesn't look very english neither. 19:43:54 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 19:43:56 (maybe it is tho) 19:44:00 Er, that latter "neither" is supposed to be a "nor". 19:44:07 Indeed. 19:44:12 (thought so, i mainly just wanted to add a third neitehr) 19:44:13 Although Latin works like that. 19:44:14 *neither 19:44:14 Hi, CakeProphet. 19:44:28 uorygl: see one might say ", but your mother" 19:44:35 i went one step further 19:44:37 Yeah, in Spanish, the words for "neither" and "nor" are both "ni". 19:44:46 I forget what neither... nor... is, but both... and... is "et... et..." 19:44:49 because i figured you people are smart and love decrypting confusing stuff. 19:45:02 Likewise, "either" and "or" are both "o". 19:45:12 I don't know if "both" and "and" are both "y". 19:45:35 Spanish is economical! Every one-vowel word you can say means something. 19:45:36 did you get it? 19:45:44 it does in lojban too 19:45:49 or they 19:46:17 A, e, i, o and u mean to/at, and, and, or, and or, respectively. :P 19:46:26 Er, that latter "neither" is supposed to be a "nor". <-- isn't nor universal? Just like nand 19:46:35 Except that "i" is spelled "y" instead. 19:46:42 so neither nand should work too 19:46:44 or wait 19:46:53 how do you write a nor gate in nand hm... 19:46:58 AnMaster: um, I was referring to how in that sentence, I accidentally said "neither" where I meant to say "nor". 19:46:59 Idea: Huffman-coded human language. 19:47:03 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:47:05 uorygl, I know 19:47:08 and? 19:47:10 But yeah, "nor" is universal. 19:47:27 Phantom_Hoover: take an existing human language and Huffman-code it? 19:47:44 And make it pronouncable. 19:47:56 Right. Well, that couldn't be too hard. 19:48:00 uorygl: did you? 19:48:08 oklopol: no. 19:48:13 oh :\ 19:48:31 isn't it ((a'*b')')' 19:48:38 I mean, using only nand and inverter 19:48:48 "but your mother is fat" => "but at least my mother isn't fat unlike yours"; "but your mother" => "but at least not my mother unlike yours" 19:48:50 I think that should give you nor 19:48:53 right? 19:48:54 AnMaster: yeah. 19:49:11 oklopol: got it. 19:49:33 AnMaster: also you need to mention inverters can be done with nand but i guess that's trivial 19:49:43 uorygl, so now lets use "neither .... not nand (with inverted inputs)" 19:50:02 err 19:50:08 oklopol, yes they can be done with nand, but I knew that since before 19:50:11 or wait what were you expressing 19:50:18 ((a'*b')')' = a'*b' 19:50:35 oklopol, yes but that is an AND gate 19:50:55 oklopol, use De Morgan to extract the ' from that and you get a NOR 19:51:12 oklopol, I'm trying to rewrite "neither ... nor ..." into using a nand gate you see ;P 19:51:39 wait so it would be... 19:52:06 neither not ((not ...) nand (not ...)) 19:52:08 I guess 19:52:12 Adrian^L, AnMaster ais523 BeholdMyGlory 19:52:15 Damn. 19:52:17 Phantom_Hoover, what? 19:52:24 I did no mean to press enter. 19:52:30 s/no/not/ 19:52:33 still wtf 19:52:40 why would you list nicks like that 19:52:40 No all! 19:52:45 without meaning to press enter 19:52:49 that is a bit wtf 19:53:05 strange hobby 19:53:14 would fit right into xkcd "my hobby" I guess 19:53:18 Terve, mitä kuuluu? 19:53:51 mits tss, lueskelen turingin koneista 19:54:00 I was mucking about with the tab-completion. 19:54:07 I see 19:54:10 Has anise been around today? 19:54:15 who? 19:54:22 Yay, more Finnish. 19:54:22 ...anise 19:54:28 no clue who that is 19:54:37 SevenInchBread: alise? 19:54:40 .....yes 19:54:42 :) 19:54:50 oh 19:54:51 * SevenInchBread has impeccable memory 19:54:53 Isn't that a type of flavouring? 19:54:54 not today no 19:55:02 Phantom_Hoover, sin't that aniseed? 19:55:07 Star anise? 19:55:11 ansi? 19:55:44 Hrm, elative plural... 19:56:08 Is "mitäs tässä" an idiom? 19:56:45 the s in the end means nothing really 19:58:01 i think it's sort for "mitps", "-ps/pas", or usually "-p/-pa" are these meaningless thingies you can stick in the end of words sometimes 19:58:07 well not meaningless 19:58:10 but hard to translate 19:58:19 err 19:58:21 What does it mean? 19:58:40 and now to actually answer your question, yes it's an idiom :P 19:58:50 Ah, good. :P 19:58:56 "mit tss" doesn't mean anything afaik 19:59:20 or maybe some people use it for the same purpose 19:59:27 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:59:42 yeah i think it's used quite a lot 20:00:10 i dunno i use english so much more 20:00:13 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 20:00:15 :D 20:00:21 i wonder if that's true 20:01:12 now i use english every day at work too so if i continue ircing then it will definitely happen 20:02:10 You'll become a native speaker. :P 20:02:18 "mitä tässä" doesn't mean anything afaik or maybe some people use it for the same purpose <-- same purpose as a nop? 20:02:24 noop* 20:02:47 Noop! 20:02:54 that is quite nice, having a natural language with a NOOP. Then you can uh, align your sentences to efficient second boundaries! 20:02:55 or something 20:03:04 i prefer nop 20:03:07 oh wait, that is what the "um..." is for 20:03:11 What about "uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuU"? 20:03:25 Phantom_Hoover, then you have strange alignment restrictions 20:03:32 Also, the Fox News comment system appears to have been written by some platypi. 20:03:32 Phantom_Hoover: actually useful for poetry 20:03:34 try rearranging your sentences 20:03:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:03:40 oklopol, :D 20:03:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:04:23 Also, "I want to/uuu do you", which is basically 90% of poetry. 20:04:39 Phantom_Hoover, what? Not all poetry is love poetry 20:04:58 I didn't say that. 20:05:05 90!=100 20:05:08 Phantom_Hoover, not even as much as 90% is 20:05:19 Including the unpublished? 20:05:42 AnMaster: clearly it should be "nboth ... nand ..." 20:05:43 Phantom_Hoover, you don't have any verifiable numbers over those anyway 20:06:06 oerjan, what? Show me the steps to rewrite it to that. 20:06:31 THAT'S OBVIOUS 20:06:35 also punny 20:06:44 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:06:49 Phantom_Hoover, but yes I was thinking about things like the Iliad. While love is involved certainly, it doesn't go along the lines of "I want to/uuu do you". 20:07:14 IT WAS ATTEMPTED HUMOUR. 20:07:24 Phantom_Hoover, or much of Shakespear's works 20:07:24 REALITY DOESN'T FACTOR INTO IT. 20:07:38 Phantom_Hoover, oh, forgot to flag it as humour 20:08:00 AnMaster only understands his own humor 20:08:16 oklopol, no, I understand some other too, why else would I read iwc? 20:08:33 (of course I know what oklopol did is an exaggeration.) 20:08:35 i haven't read iwc i didn't think its point was to be funny 20:08:45 i would never exaggerate 20:08:57 yeah and everyone uses Kelvin ;P 20:09:01 AnMaster: that 90% might have a large overlap with the 90% that is crap, so using classics as evidence does not cut it 20:09:01 not even if someone showed a gun in my ass 20:09:06 *shoved 20:10:25 what was the percentage of statistics that was made up on the spot again? 20:10:29 EXAGGERATE DAMMIT, OR THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY LITTLE OKLOPOLS 20:10:48 oklopol: 73% 20:11:24 oerjan, hm good point about the overlap 20:11:30 i don't think i get that, unless sex is some kind of exaggerated masturbation 20:11:41 AnMaster: Phantom_Hoover made that point too 20:11:57 oerjan, I would recommend adding to the discussion that this warrants further studies and then publish it as is 20:12:15 oerjan keeps mimicking him for some reason 20:12:25 maybe i'm NOT the next oerjan?!? 20:12:34 oklopol, no his point as about unpublished 20:12:48 oklopol: hard to say. i have a theory that alise is the next zzo38. 20:13:01 oklopol, unpublished != the crap, though there might very well be a large overlap 20:13:01 :D 20:13:38 i think it was the same point 20:14:06 oklopol, they are different statements. Also the crap includes some stuff not about sex. 20:14:09 oerjan: actually i don't think we're that similar, you're better at topology. 20:14:17 Like about bridges that didn't hold up 20:14:23 no considerable differences in personalities tho 20:14:31 oklopol: explanation: if that gun in your ass goes off, there will definitely not be any little oklopols 20:14:42 :D 20:14:51 oklopol, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McGonagall#Tay_Bridge_Disaster 20:14:54 yes i suppose that was obvious 20:15:13 I don't think it is about sex 20:15:19 but I could be wrong 20:23:55 no, that one is about death. those are of course the only alternatives 20:25:03 -!- sshc has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:33:08 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 20:33:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:36:30 oerjan, there is a third. Nature, especially "ode to the spring" or similar 20:36:58 but yeah after that you only got modern statistical flukes which shouldn't even be considered proper poetry 20:36:59 ;P 20:43:54 oerjan, wait, how do we put E. A. Poe into this? 20:44:19 ah it would be death 20:44:20 right 20:44:31 so i thought. not that i actually know much poetry. 20:44:46 oerjan, still I maintain that nature can be a valid third category 20:45:03 yeah, i was mainly making a freud joke there 20:45:32 and possibly not even correct freud 20:45:44 Hamlet = death, Romeo & Juliet = death _and_ love, The Iliad = death mostly, a bit of love too 20:45:47 hm 20:45:48 yeah 20:45:52 this seems to cover all 20:45:53 :) 20:46:10 oerjan, heh, didn't notice that 20:46:33 * oerjan recalls something about pastorals 20:46:56 oerjan, don't they go into the nature category? 20:47:18 and perhaps some love as well 20:47:47 oerjan, from wikipedia on pastoral poetry: "Pastoral literature began with the poetry of the Hellenistic Greek Theocritus, several of whose Idylls are set in the countryside [...]" 20:47:51 yep, clearly nature 20:48:16 I guess Theocritus didn't like the gods btw 20:48:17 the first poem example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastoral would seem to confirm the nature+love 20:49:22 oerjan, so we could say that all poetry is made out of three parts, hm not a good word... ah got it! elements. Right so, ... made out of three elements, in different proportions 20:49:55 why did I get a dejavu there... 20:50:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element ? 20:51:41 Ah indeed! their mistake was mixing up matter poetry somehow 20:51:57 heh 20:53:07 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: No route to host). 20:58:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:13:27 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 21:14:12 -!- hiato has joined. 21:19:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:20:39 Huh. Apparently, there's a Finnish spot in Michigan. 21:20:47 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: bbl). 21:22:11 Hancock, Michigan. 21:26:10 funnily "han-" is "male-" in Swedish, not "male" (would be "hane"), but as in "hangroda" (male frog), it isn't used about humans though. 21:26:25 so what a dirty name of a place 21:26:39 Quite. :( 21:26:42 I mean, :) 21:27:29 heh 21:28:20 I could go up there and speak Finnish, if I knew Finnish and if they know Finnish. :P 21:28:38 That holds for most values of "there" 21:29:30 True. 21:29:46 Deewiant, only most? 21:30:05 He can't go up to all values 21:30:28 Deewiant, examples of such values 21:30:52 The surface of VY Canis Majoris 21:31:21 Even if uorygl were to know Finnish and they knew Finnish there, he couldn't go up there and speak Finnish 21:31:42 Deewiant, hm? is it a neutron star or such? 21:31:51 alas, that would finish him 21:31:56 No, but it is a star. 21:32:02 A really big one. 21:32:07 the largest star known iirc 21:32:24 Yeah, Wikipedia says it is. 21:32:28 so more or less the opposite of a neutron star 21:32:43 in a suitable protective vessel? 21:33:05 of course I don't know of any such 21:33:13 but you probably need anti-gravity too 21:33:35 hm if it is _really_ big maybe the upper atmosphere is so thin you could survive there 21:34:04 If you were inside a star, would it be possible for you to obtain usable energy? 21:34:25 hm the second law of thermodynamics might be a problem 21:34:34 Yeah. 21:34:40 not cold place to send waste energy 21:34:42 *no 21:35:04 How does the Earth stay cool? I guess we radiate energy into outer space, which means that outer space is in fact colder than Earth. 21:35:05 I'm making a couple of reasonable assumptions here, such as no terribly unexpected technological breakthroughs during uorygl's lifespan 21:35:48 * oerjan whispers something about technological singularity 21:37:28 uorygl: the temperature of outer space is essentially the temperature of the cosmic microwave background (3 K) iirc 21:37:37 *about 3 K 21:37:50 Hm, I guess if you could put yourself inside some really good thermal insulation, you could probably pull hot plasma in, fuse it yourself, and spit it back out. 21:37:58 You could get a bit of a thermal gradient that way. 21:39:26 I'm guessing that solar panels emit light when hot and subjected to voltage. 21:39:38 * Phantom_Hoover changes client 21:39:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:40:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:40:45 Since they produce voltage when cool and subjected to light. 21:40:55 Apparently my name is "purple! 21:41:51 uorygl: i wouldn't want to bet either way, apart from blackbody radiation of course 21:42:50 uorygl: Most things emit light when hot. :) 21:43:00 And most things when subjected to voltage get hot. 21:43:11 Hm, yes. 21:43:36 Given a gradient of entropy, can you use that for power? 21:43:53 Yes. 21:44:09 Because a gradient of entropy means that somewhere, entropy is less than the maximum. :) 21:44:10 Yes, that is how most power generation functions. 21:44:31 "most"? 21:44:55 * uorygl ponders a purely mechanical analogy of a solar panel. 21:45:23 So. A wire is like a cable, and light is like lots of little balls. 21:45:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:45:55 There's this panel thingy. When the little balls strike it, the energy from the strike goes into tugging the cable. 21:46:06 There's a ratchet that prevents the cable from slipping backwards. 21:46:30 The thing is, the ratchet generates heat when it's operated, and a ratchet, when hot enough, is no longer effective. 21:46:35 not cold place to send waste energy <-- so build a huge stirling engine, extending from inside the star to a point sufficiently far away from the star 21:46:36 :D 21:46:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:47:14 So it seems like a hot solar panel indeed ought to act light a flashlight. 21:47:30 uorygl, what? 21:47:44 Indeed ought to convert electricity to light, I should say. 21:48:15 uorygl, really? 21:48:17 huh 21:48:32 uorygl, sure the process in a solar panel is reversible like that? 21:48:36 sure for motor/generator it is 21:48:47 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:48:54 If it weren't, we'd have a way to get around that nasty Second Law. 21:49:13 uorygl, but can you generate electricity by shining a strong light on a normal lightbulb? 21:49:35 Light bulbs convert electricity into heat, and that heat into light. 21:49:48 The light will get converted into heat, sure, but that heat will not produce electricity. 21:49:54 uorygl, why not 21:50:00 uorygl: um but the second law doesn't say that you can get better than blackbody radiation that way, i think 21:50:00 it should according to your logic? 21:50:08 You can generate heat, but you can't un-generate heat! 21:50:09 Wait, what power-generation methods *don't* use an entropy gradient? 21:50:20 uorygl, why not, isn't it the same as the solar cell? 21:50:23 uorygl: UNLESS YOU'RE GOD. 21:50:47 * uorygl imagines a mechanical analogy of a light bulb. 21:50:50 uorygl, also you can convert it into mechanical power using a stirling engine, then drive a generator with it 21:51:00 but 21:51:07 not with the lightbulb alone 21:51:21 uorygl, black body radiation sure 21:51:24 or such 21:51:57 but my point was that I'm pretty sure any given device doesn't have to be reversible in itself 21:52:02 AnMaster: mmkay, I guess it will generate electricity, but that electricity will be Brownian motion. 21:52:09 uorygl, eh? 21:52:27 The current will just sort of jitter back and forth randomly. 21:52:29 ah 21:53:05 Hm, I would bet that diodes also heat up during use, and that hot diodes also fail. 21:54:02 In conclusion: thank goodness Earth's atmosphere is translucent. 21:54:45 * uorygl briefly wonders whether he's doing something irrational or pseudoscientific, but realizes that he's actually making lots of predictions. 21:54:46 uorygl, what? 21:55:17 If Earth's atmosphere weren't translucent, light would neither enter or leave, and so photosynthesis would be impossible, and Earth would get really hot. 21:55:35 uorygl, and yes hot diods can fail. Isn't that how one type of PROM worked basically? 21:55:37 Phantom_Hoover: Willing power into being 21:56:04 That has the caveat of not actually working. 21:56:08 \o/ 21:56:08 | 21:56:08 /< 21:56:22 It still doesn't work. 21:56:30 Suppose that there are lots of rocks on top of a cliff, and you generate power by lowering them to the ground. 21:56:32 uorygl: Heat would, however, enter. And it would end up leaving. 21:56:45 (if nothing else, because of blackbody radiation) 21:56:46 Does that have an entropy gradient? 21:56:49 -!- uorygl has changed nick to uorgl. 21:56:51 \o/ 21:56:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:56:56 Yes, that is an entropy gradient. 21:57:01 \o/ \o/ 21:57:07 \o/ \o/ 21:57:08 | | 21:57:08 /< /< 21:57:18 -!- uorgl has changed nick to uorygl. 21:57:39 misaligned as usual 21:58:19 \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \o/ \m/ 21:58:29 * uorygl pokes myndzi. 21:58:41 \m/ \o/ 21:58:41 | 21:58:41 /< 21:58:51 \m/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ \m/ \o/ \m/ 21:58:51 | `\o/ | | 21:58:52 >\ | /< /| 21:58:52 (_|'\ 21:58:52 |_) 21:58:55 * Phantom_Hoover writes a function with 3 nested MAPCARs 21:58:57 what? 21:58:58 Strange. 21:59:01 I feel... unclean. 21:59:05 /m/ 21:59:10 \m/ 21:59:12 uorygl, at least it lined up, since you have the same nick length 21:59:24 /o/o/o/ 21:59:24 | | 21:59:24 /< |\ 21:59:30 Phantom_Hoover, does not line up 21:59:43 It lines up here in my monospace font. 21:59:53 Hm, your client omits leading spaces, doesn't it. 22:00:01 Does this message look like it starts with a bunch of spaces? 22:00:10 Yes. 22:00:35 uorygl, there are spaces at the start of it 22:00:44 How many? 22:00:52 uorygl, it is under your t 22:00:52 The correct amount 22:00:54 in omits 22:00:58 Huh. 22:01:00 the D is under the t that is 22:01:08 Then I wonder why myndzi's stuff doesn't appear to line up. 22:01:10 uorygl: AnMaster's client right-aligns nicks 22:01:17 Mm. 22:01:23 So that all message content starts from the same column 22:01:32 uorygl, the thing is, I have a divider, nicks right align against it, then the text left aligns on the other side 22:01:42 /o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o\o\o\o\o\o\o\o\o\ 22:01:43 | | | | | | | | | 22:01:43 /`\ /| /< /`\ |\ /< >\ |\ /< 22:02:00 ______________o______________ 22:02:01 | 22:02:01 >\ 22:02:05 Not for me, incidentally. 22:02:15 But I'm using a non-monospaced font. 22:02:27 uorygl, this is fixed (xchat has a floating one, was a bit tricky to do that with ERC), so "Phantom_Hoover" is max length, otherwise the nick will overflow the divider and thus the text would move out from the divider as well 22:02:32 which would piss me off a lot 22:02:43 Phantom_Hoover, SINNER! 22:03:12 It's not going to kill me, so it'll just make me stringer. 22:03:22 \o/ \o\ /o/ _o_ -o- "o" 22:03:22 | | | | | | 22:03:22 /< /| >\ /< /| >\ 22:03:22 -!- Foobarbazzotqux has joined. 22:03:23 s/i/o/ 22:03:24 | 22:03:24 /'\ 22:03:28 \o/ 22:03:29 | 22:03:29 >\ 22:03:37 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 22:03:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Foobarbazzot. 22:03:52 \o/ 22:03:52 | 22:03:52 /| 22:03:58 \o/ 22:03:58 | 22:03:59 /`\ 22:04:03 -!- Foobarbazzot has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 22:04:52 -!- Oranjer has joined. 22:05:02 Oeranjer! 22:05:21 It's like a cross between oerjan and Oranjer. 22:05:22 * AnMaster stabs Foobarbazzotqux for the horrible long nick 22:05:25 :( 22:05:34 :-P 22:05:44 -!- Foobarbazzotqux has changed nick to Foobarbazzotquxq. 22:05:51 who is Foobarbazzotquxq btw? 22:06:06 This seems to be the freenode max length 22:06:15 One of our Finnish members. 22:06:31 Or at least, I tried to set to something longer but this is all it gave. 22:07:20 !haskell import Data.List; main = putStrLn . intersperse '/' $ ['a'..'z'] 22:07:28 Ah, so that's why I couldn't call myself Phantom_Hoovershire 22:07:31 a/b/c/d/e/f/g/h/i/j/k/l/m/n/o/p/q/r/s/t/u/v/w/x/y/z 22:07:31 | 22:07:31 /\ 22:07:41 Why a ? 22:07:58 !haskell import Data.List; main = putStrLn . intersperse '/' $ ['A'..'Z'] 22:08:00 A/B/C/D/E/F/G/H/I/J/K/L/M/N/O/P/Q/R/S/T/U/V/W/X/Y/Z 22:08:06 !bf98 a,a.@ 22:08:07 BAH 22:08:08 hm 22:08:11 !befunge98 a,a.@ 22:08:15 !befunge98 a.a,@ 22:08:16 10 22:08:21 !haskell import Data.List; main = putStrLn . intercalate "/\" $ ['a'..'z'] 22:08:26 right, that was the command 22:08:42 !haskell import Data.List; main = putStrLn . intercalate "/\\" $ ['a'..'z'] 22:08:42 !befunge98 "/o/",,,a.@ 22:08:42 | 22:08:43 /< 22:08:43 /o/10 22:08:43 Foobarbazzotquxq: you just hit one of my stalkwords 22:08:43 | 22:08:43 >\ 22:08:48 !befunge98 "/o/",,,a,@ 22:08:48 | 22:08:48 /| 22:08:49 /o/ 22:08:52 okay 22:08:57 wth is going on there 22:09:03 ais523: Right, "intercal" :-) 22:09:05 oh it is trying to do mine 22:09:05 hmm, are you trying to trigger myndzi deliberately 22:09:07 Foobarbazzotquxq: yep 22:09:28 !befunge98 a" /o/">:#,_@ 22:09:28 | 22:09:28 |\ 22:09:29 /o/ 22:09:29 | 22:09:29 /'\ 22:09:33 ... 22:09:35 !befunge98 a" /m/">:#,_@ 22:09:36 /m/ 22:09:40 !befunge98 a" \m/">:#,_@ 22:09:40 /m\ 22:09:44 !befunge98 a" \m\">:#,_@ 22:09:44 \m\ 22:09:46 !haskell import Data.List; main = putStrLn . intercalate "/\\" . map (:[]) $ ['a'..'z'] 22:09:48 a/\b/\c/\d/\e/\f/\g/\h/\i/\j/\k/\l/\m/\n/\o/\p/\q/\r/\s/\t/\u/\v/\w/\x/\y/\z 22:09:48 | 22:09:49 |\ 22:09:51 !befunge98 a" /m\">:#,_@ 22:09:52 \m/ 22:09:58 wait what 22:10:06 Gregor, why does it remove spaces at the start? 22:10:10 Gregor, it is broken! 22:10:13 !befunge98 a"/m\ ">:#,_@ 22:10:13 \m/ 22:10:25 Your spaces were at the end 22:10:28 Deewiant, wait, backwards, but still broken 22:10:31 it removed spaces there too 22:10:38 Deewiant, and at end 22:10:43 it strips trailing/leading spaces 22:10:44 :( 22:11:43 !haskell putStr " what " 22:11:44 what 22:11:51 :( 22:12:08 oerjan, see 22:12:10 it is broken 22:12:12 -!- Foobarbazzotquxq has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]). 22:12:13 Gregor, !!!!!!!! 22:12:31 so, who was Foobarbazzotquxq? 22:13:00 a mysterious stranger 22:13:19 oerjan, unlikely 22:13:23 .fi 22:13:26 but chatzilla at quit 22:13:38 not someone I recognise 22:13:43 doesn't match Deewiant or oklopol or fizzie 22:13:43 they were acting like a regular, though 22:13:43 oklopol: I accuse you. 22:13:46 ais523, yes 22:13:52 Bahh. 22:13:55 Phantom_Hoover, -oklopol- VERSION mIRC v6.35 Khaled Mardam-Bey 22:13:59 xchat; why? 22:14:04 could have used a non-standard irc client 22:14:07 FireFly, mistab of fizzie 22:14:10 Ah 22:14:15 FireFly, but hi anyway 22:14:22 ;) 22:14:22 I thought I was pretty obvious but I guess not 22:14:23 FireFly, was a while ago I last saw you speak 22:14:24 Hm 22:14:31 Yep, been doing other stuff 22:14:41 * oerjan swats FireFly -----### 22:14:45 :D 22:15:02 I'VE NOTED SOME RECENT WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS 22:15:12 Caps lock 22:15:15 * FireFly withdraws 22:15:54 lacks cop 22:16:10 oerjan, withdrawal from the swatter? 22:16:12 hm 22:16:13 perhaps 22:16:17 yes 22:16:52 The fact that I speak as we speak is a pretty solid symptom 22:17:10 FireFly, wait, was that a meme variant? 22:17:13 Hm 22:17:15 Actually not 22:17:18 But it does look like one 22:17:29 FireFly, the "put some X in your X so you can X while you X" or however it goes 22:17:32 if it walks like a meme... 22:17:38 oerjan, AUGH 22:17:44 Is #esoteric duck-typed? 22:18:27 of course, i'm letting a duck do all my typing. doesn't everyone? 22:18:40 or wait, maybe that's why my typing is so slow 22:18:55 :D 22:19:05 oerjan, if it walks like a meme it is probably an MMU, right? 22:19:07 Pretty accurate though 22:19:21 Deewiant, ffs, trained duck obviously 22:19:45 it's an immigrant from peking 22:19:57 what= 22:20:01 s/=/?/ 22:20:02 AnMaster: Well, you'd expect such to be fast as well 22:20:27 A miracle it hasn't been eaten yet, though 22:20:57 Deewiant, how could it be fast when it has to aim a twig hold in it's mouth to type 22:21:02 ... 22:21:07 that's just absurd 22:21:16 I didn't realize a twig was involved 22:21:20 Is it also trained? 22:22:10 Deewiant, the twig? Varies, untrained twigs are more common in the southern parts of Europe, elsewhere it is mostly trained twigs only 22:22:22 Mm 22:23:28 FireFly: well that's why it emigrated, obviously 22:23:45 oerjan, I suppose the twig is trained then? 22:23:53 what twig 22:23:54 Ah, I guess so 22:23:57 oerjan, see above 22:24:07 since it wasn't from southern Europe 22:24:27 Deewiant, anyway the twig is needed because otherwise it can't hit a single key at a time 22:24:27 seriously AnMaster, you shouldn't go around making such stupid ideas out of thin air 22:24:51 AnMaster: Can't it just peck? 22:24:56 oerjan, this is common knowledge, nice try at joke there, but it isn't 1 April 22:25:19 Deewiant: it's very much a peck and hunt typer 22:25:35 Yes, that's what I'd imagine from a duck 22:25:52 (Btw, it's "hunt and peck") 22:25:55 Deewiant, depends on the species, how wide the end is 22:26:10 what do you call the "näbb" in English btw? 22:26:12 of a bird 22:26:13 Well, if you have a typist duck you obviously want a thin-billed one 22:26:23 ah bill 22:26:24 right 22:26:34 Or b eak 22:26:35 beak* 22:26:43 Deewiant, yes but this was only found out relatively recently, thus the twig is still common practise 22:26:51 Bill is for the flat kind of ones, I think 22:26:56 Deewiant: no it pecks the keys so hard it has to hunt for them afterwards 22:27:07 That seems extremely suboptimal 22:27:15 you'd think 22:27:16 I'd go so far as to call that pessimal 22:27:26 Deewiant, see, that is the downside of using thin-beaked ones 22:27:39 Deewiant, you won't get that with a twig, it will slide before that point 22:27:39 Meh 22:27:45 All too complicated 22:27:46 or break 22:27:52 I think I'll just type myself for the time being 22:28:38 Deewiant, what? Rube Goldberg said it was too simple when asked. 22:28:42 surely you are jesting! 22:28:43 AnMaster: the upside is that the bill is small 22:29:04 oerjan, oh yeah it doesn't cost a lot 22:29:08 Rube Goldberg's standards are not mine 22:29:28 it's the goldberg standard 22:30:52 http://www.diycalculator.com/sp-hrrgcomp.shtml 22:30:58 The Rube Goldberg computer. 22:31:08 (I've already posted it but whatever) 22:31:10 Phantom_Hoover, old 22:31:24 oerjan made me. 22:31:33 fungot 22:31:41 fungot? 22:32:07 fungot 22:32:07 Deewiant: and is one of the other qubits should stay the same?) 22:32:10 O fungot, o fungot, where hast thou gone? 22:32:11 Phantom_Hoover: the job of a portable bignum library? i think you should understand how to determine for certain if you are 22:32:24 ^style lovecraft 22:32:24 Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings) 22:32:31 fungot, much better. 22:32:32 fungot: how much does the job of a portable bignum library pay? 22:32:33 Phantom_Hoover: the unfinished pictures on fnord or in the tacit assumption that from this line sprang the bold companion and lieutenant of the black abyss sharply fnord tunnels whose mouths we carefully drew, according to the carvings from which we had instinctively clung throughout our desperate flight, we fnord a branch of the de grey and entered the hotel; while the passengers the same men whom i had thought. 22:32:34 oerjan: the whisperer in darkness. once, for example. he fnord me on his professional honor that joe slater was unmistakably dying. perhaps it was what poor lakes dissection had indicated fnord and to this they bent all the force of its fnord and fnord palace of the sun, but grey and dismal. 22:32:47 ^style 22:32:47 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:32:56 How the hell is "fnord" Lovecraftian? 22:33:16 "fnord" is the replacement used when there's only one instance of the actual word in the corpus 22:33:28 Thus, "fnord" becomes very Lovecraftian. 22:33:30 For greater amusement. 22:33:41 ^style jargon 22:33:42 Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive) 22:33:44 fungot 22:33:45 Phantom_Hoover: " in solaris, sun will address that problem, that your intentions have been organized very differently than most people think--perhaps around a single token. like what the ethernet type field isn't recognizable. oh, and 22:33:59 hoc est corpus cthulhu 22:34:11 fungot: What thinketh ye? 22:34:11 pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. if is not the maximum size declared by any module that is near telegraph ave, where you put your keys. 22:34:34 Oooh, Telegraph Ave. 22:34:40 Where you put your keys. 22:35:00 the keys to success 22:35:23 ^style 22:35:24 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:35:31 ^style speeches 22:35:31 Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg) 22:35:33 fungot 22:35:35 Phantom_Hoover: " says i, ' i can't afford it, mr. owen, i am satisfied, with the golden staff in one hand and the school report in the other. 22:35:39 fungot 22:35:41 Phantom_Hoover: the battle of waterloo, barere proposed that the members of the house to take away the big coat from the little boy and to put perpetual desolation as a barrier between him and his hotel but hell and the hackman." 22:35:57 ^style ct 22:35:57 Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) 22:36:07 fungot, what about the sword? 22:36:07 AnMaster: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it? 22:36:08 fungot 22:36:08 Phantom_Hoover: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! are you leaving! 22:36:11 fungot, no? 22:36:12 AnMaster: cyrus! are you leaving!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle! and letting these...hoodlums in here? traitors like you deserve from heckran! ha!! gotcha! 22:36:21 fungot, seriously the sword... 22:36:21 AnMaster: from where does the hero alone have the power. " m, madam...! i am, are you?! c'mon!!! 22:36:25 fungot, ... 22:36:25 AnMaster: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins! the structural damage is severe. the tale? 22:36:28 fungot: I'm not leaving. 22:36:29 Phantom_Hoover: but, we are far outnumbered!? i sense!" 22:36:35 fungot, sigh 22:36:35 AnMaster: but, we are far outnumbered! the king does not wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away! 22:36:41 fungot: We aren't that outnumbered. 22:36:42 Phantom_Hoover: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that swor 22:36:45 YES! 22:36:49 perfect 22:37:00 ^style 22:37:00 Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:37:06 ^style darwin 22:37:06 Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy) 22:37:10 fungot, hello there 22:37:13 AnMaster: if this passage, which probably is an entrance:/ water at great depths:/ pressure, though spread over a wider surface than that acted on by like causes inducing similar modifications. with respect to/ tower-like castings near nice had been ejected on an inclined surface, and not exclusively from being transported to a distance :) about half a crown apiece. it seems however doubtful, judging from those two wonderful an 22:37:31 /two/ an? 22:37:36 fungot: You sure? 22:37:38 Deewiant: ever yours, c. darwin. 17 spring gardens, london, fnord, morphology, adaptive characters, 426. land-shells, distribution :), 394. man, moreover, made a great blunder in taking families instead :) smaller groups will become utterly extinct. in failing orders, with/ exception :) a few miles from edinburgh, and saw and conversed with many :) its shorter axis: there are, according to their periods :) arrival and maturity 22:37:43 the smiles were a bug iirc 22:37:48 in the model generator 22:38:30 ^style agora 22:38:31 Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical) 22:38:33 "17 spring gardens, london, fnord" <-- best address ever 22:38:33 fungot 22:38:34 Phantom_Hoover: players may vote on an ordinary 22:38:46 fungot, now this style is boring, don't you agree 22:38:46 AnMaster: ( a) auctioneer: the auction e is the 22:38:51 yeah exactly 22:39:01 Phantom_Hoover, it's a nomic in case you don't know 22:39:05 Agora is one of those things I might conceivably be interested in, but I can't be bothered. Eh, fungot? 22:39:06 Phantom_Hoover: b) if an oligarch at the time of casting unity 22:39:34 ^style ic 22:39:34 Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual) 22:39:38 fungot, hi there 22:39:38 AnMaster: e099 programmer is insufficiently polite 22:39:51 fungot, PLEASE say something then 22:39:52 AnMaster: the `try again'. ( the last character output before it will issue this warning is meant to go, and from-gerund `come from' itself ( if a `come from'. 22:40:11 fungot, heh 22:40:11 AnMaster: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions 22:40:22 ais523, hey, was that all versions ^ 22:40:30 yes all versions all versions 22:40:39 Deewiant, I don't trust fungot 22:40:39 AnMaster: the multithreading and backtracking extensions to intercal programs; it cannot be `reinstated' or `next from's. the solution is to produce 32-bit results; except in some ways than some other languages. 22:40:42 AnMaster: it means, it's available in all versions of c-intercal and clc-intercal, also in intercal-72 22:40:44 obviously obviously 22:40:46 it's fungot attempting to repeat a table 22:40:46 ais523: this declaration and definition::. 22:40:58 ais523, ah 22:41:14 ^style 22:41:14 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic* irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:41:28 ^style youtube 22:41:28 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 22:41:36 fungot: Like youtube? 22:41:36 pikhq: dont fuck this movie 22:41:43 fungot, good idea 22:41:43 AnMaster: to any airbus plane. 3 passengers sadly died the most awesome thing ever. 22:41:51 but pikhq beat me to selecting a style hm 22:42:04 fungot, also I don't agree that is awesome 22:42:04 AnMaster: whats the difference between watching in hd 22:42:04 Oddly, fungot appears to be more grammatical off of Youtube comments. 22:42:05 pikhq: music on myspace...paulo brazil search and select the first computer controlled 22:42:16 pikhq, ? 22:42:20 ^style europarl 22:42:20 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 22:42:30 fungot, hm? 22:42:30 AnMaster: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i would like to take an extremely firm request to the governments. 22:42:41 pikhq: it's because youtube comments are stupid enough on average anyway that fungot grammar wouldn't be any worse 22:42:42 ais523: mr president, the iranian sentences, which have not been able to prepare that ground carefully. on south-eastern europe, i must say that today's debate has shown, with what moral authority, can the governments of the united states 22:42:44 fungot, oh, carry on, what is this request? 22:42:45 AnMaster: mr president, i know it is still important to recall the context in which these organic compounds are released. and the way we pay taxes!' just like myself, at the actions of ukraine in the field of biotechnology. to allow forests to grow. 22:43:12 fungot, I fail to see how tax and organic compounds are related but carry on... 22:43:13 AnMaster: mr president, we europeans most certainly have. once again, by the vice-president in the chair. 22:43:21 heh 22:44:07 you can tax organic compounds. Q.E.D. 22:44:09 "the iranian sentences, which have not been able to prepare that ground carefully." <-- wtf, some sort of alchemy? 22:44:38 ^style 22:44:38 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:44:48 ^style ss 22:44:48 Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings) 22:44:52 fungot, oh? 22:44:52 AnMaster: sir godfrey. 22:44:59 fungot, I don't think I seen this before 22:45:00 AnMaster: powres the poyson in his eares. yet i perswade my selfe, richard shall liue to make the wench amends, is to goe to the feast, and to the marriage of true minds admit impediments, love is not love which alters when it alteration finds, or bends with the remover to remove. o no, no 22:45:21 I can't read that, well only random words 22:45:29 just comes out as jumble to me 22:45:35 * pikhq can read it just fine 22:45:37 maybe a native English speaker could manage it 22:45:43 It's not *coherent*, but certainly can read it. 22:45:43 ais523, what about you 22:45:55 pikhq, yes but you are not typical 22:46:04 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 22:46:09 you could use that sort of language in all seriousness! 22:46:14 it's not hard to read 22:46:16 AnMaster: Most of it is just archaic spellings. 22:46:27 liue? 22:46:28 the spelling's outdated, that's about it 22:46:31 I haven't a clue what "liue" is, though. 22:46:44 "live" probably 22:46:44 live ? 22:46:52 there wasn't a large distinction between "u" and "v" back then 22:47:04 Except that they did have a huge distinction between "u" and "v" back then. 22:47:08 ^style 22:47:08 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss* wp youtube 22:47:12 ^style ff7 22:47:12 Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII) 22:47:16 oh that one 22:47:17 meh 22:47:20 ^style fisher 22:47:20 Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations) 22:47:40 hm I think I reached the limit, someone else have to talk to it next 22:47:45 something fishy about that 22:47:54 oerjan, so highlight fungot 22:47:55 HAIL FUNGOT TOGNUF 22:48:04 pikhq, case sensitive 22:48:08 FUNGOT THE GREAT 22:48:13 HAIL fungot TOGNUF 22:48:13 case sensitive! 22:48:13 pikhq: who can't separate between like i i think you can do to this computer that i can't 22:48:16 ah 22:48:22 fungot, what? 22:48:22 AnMaster: right right um i i borrowed a may twenty sixth copy of business week has been our mayor of detroit got into a fight with w- laughter one of the 22:48:44 strange style 22:48:55 fungot: Awesome 22:48:56 Deewiant: so do you know he 22:49:00 fungot: Yep 22:49:00 Deewiant: yeah yeah it doesn't feel good but like when i first started going to the theater 22:49:29 fungot, eh? 22:49:29 AnMaster: if you're not happy)) 22:49:34 fungot, oh I am 22:49:34 AnMaster: un- unless he starts to en- to enjoy watching the tae bo that i had 22:49:45 fungot: Tae bo? 22:49:45 Deewiant: no she no they're not having ah they're not you got to look at why they try to get together there you know 22:50:01 Awfully schizophrenic :-P 22:51:23 haha 22:51:46 fungot: No, I don't know 22:51:46 Deewiant: um i'm pretty sure 22:51:52 fungot: I'm sure 22:51:52 Deewiant: which makes me even more of our liberties so i i 22:52:26 fungot, hm 22:52:26 AnMaster: you might as well be in the court i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine 22:52:39 ^style 22:52:39 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:52:42 ^style alice 22:52:45 ^style alice 22:52:45 Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll) 22:52:49 fungot, and then? 22:52:50 AnMaster: ' it's a great huge game of chess that's being fnord over the fnord of the fnord here?" he said, taking up quite a bunch of needles. 22:53:12 meh, too much to hope for the court scene there ;P 22:53:18 it would have been just too awesome 22:53:26 fungot, chess, I see 22:53:26 AnMaster: " why, suppose oo're walking, fnord" the vice-warden was saying with enthusiasm. " you see, a minute goes by so fearfully quick. you might have known, if you don't hold your tongues, i'll pick you!' 22:53:34 fungot 22:53:35 Phantom_Hoover: that i had been talking to) was balancing itself on a twig just over her head, ' you may call it " eerie," and sylvie went on again. 23:00:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:00:33 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:05:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:06:17 Awesome, Windows will not boot into safe mode 23:08:51 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 23:10:14 -!- kar8nga has joined. 23:10:32 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:10:37 -!- kar8nga has joined. 23:14:58 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:23:24 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:33:47 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:39:09 By George, I've got it! 23:39:18 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:42:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:42:54 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:42:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:50:58 -!- jabb_ has quit (Quit: off work). 2010-06-03: 00:02:38 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 00:04:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:16:49 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:18:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:29:32 -!- sshc has joined. 00:38:09 I am so uncreative at naming things. :( 00:43:46 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:46:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:49:04 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:50:21 -!- augur has joined. 00:52:13 -!- coppro has joined. 01:02:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:03:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:03:38 -!- augur has joined. 01:06:16 holy shit, the new copyright bill here doesn't unilaterally suck 01:06:31 digital locks provisions do (DMCA-style :(), but the rest is actually really sane 01:07:04 coppro: where's here? 01:07:20 Canada 01:07:32 ah well 01:07:34 canada 01:07:38 you can smoke pot in the streets 01:07:40 so 01:07:47 who cares about your copyright legislation 01:08:17 we do 01:08:25 (we = people who care) 01:10:00 :P 01:10:07 go smoke a joint on the streets, you damn hippies 01:10:10 moral rights got expanded to performances (note: moral rights are epic) 01:10:17 oh look at me im just walking around in public with POT 01:10:42 lol 01:10:45 it's not legal 01:10:54 people do it anyways, but it isn't legal 01:11:08 its not legal, but the cops dont do shit 01:11:45 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.3/20100401080539]). 01:12:46 also, the bill /legalizes/ non-commercial use of copyrighted works in other copyrighted works 01:12:58 so things like mashups are legal if non-commercial 01:13:13 awesome 01:13:30 basically it puts a CC NC on everything 01:14:52 there are restrictions though; primarily it can't negatively affect the commercial activity or viability of the original 01:15:05 also attribution 01:15:22 ha - Michael Geist called it the YouTube right 01:17:03 statutory damages are lowered for non-commercial infringement, that's good 01:18:01 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:19:53 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:25:38 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 01:30:00 hmm... actually, the digital locks provisions aren't as bad as when I looked originally 01:40:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 01:45:54 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:50:12 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:50:42 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:58:08 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:55:56 -!- lament has joined. 03:03:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:26:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split). 03:26:17 -!- ais523 has quit (*.net *.split). 03:28:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:28:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 03:32:10 esolang was just linked in #math 03:32:22 Orly? 03:32:44 by me of all people 03:32:55 lament the tireless promoter 03:33:21 i also wrote that article i linked to :D 03:45:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 03:45:35 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:52:27 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:18:09 what's the mathematica to express a function in terms of a single variable? 04:48:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:51:09 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:02:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:27:32 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 05:46:27 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:48:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:33:45 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:52:20 -!- jabb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:10:46 -!- Gregor has joined. 07:20:50 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:26:45 -!- relet has joined. 07:30:43 -!- tombom has joined. 07:30:56 -!- uorygl has joined. 07:36:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:53:43 -!- jabb has joined. 07:53:54 !! 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:18:03 Not graue? 08:18:28 gruaue 08:19:51 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 08:24:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:24:38 oerjan! 08:24:58 'lo 08:26:26 Lo! 08:26:37 Phantom_Hoover: graue doesn't really come here nowadays, i cannot recall seeing him for years 08:26:56 And is he the only person with keys to the wiki? 08:28:14 yes 08:28:33 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 08:29:05 he _does_ respond to emails, however, at least last time someone tried 08:30:31 What's wrong with wiki? 08:31:35 nothing new that i can see 08:32:20 Phantom_Hoover: there are also administrators, ais523 and keymaker 08:32:40 but their powers are limited 08:32:55 Yes, I know. 08:33:05 So no even any other bureaucrats? 08:33:16 s/no/not/ 08:34:55 anarchy or death, i say 08:52:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 08:54:51 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:54:58 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:01:13 -!- oktolol has joined. 09:04:26 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:15:50 oktolol: Surely octo? 10:21:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:24:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:29:33 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:30:45 Slereah: I have not seen you before. 10:31:23 Strange, since I've been here for 3 years or so 10:32:09 I am bad at noticing, then. 11:19:29 -!- hiato has joined. 11:24:22 hiato! 11:24:40 Phantom_Hoover! 11:24:47 hiato!! 11:24:57 Phantom_Hoover!!! 11:25:05 hiato!!!11!! 11:25:30 Ah well, was hoping for a fibonacci sequence there 11:25:39 hiato!!!!! 11:26:00 Phantom_Hoover!!!!!!!! 11:26:18 hiato!!!!!!!!!!!!! 11:26:23 \o/ 11:26:23 | 11:26:23 >\ 11:26:42 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: ! OVERFLOW). 11:27:03 -!- hiato has joined. 11:27:19 hiato????????????????????? 11:27:43 You crashed my IRC cliet. It couldn't take more than 13 !'s before it overflowed 11:27:49 :P 11:28:09 Hence the ?s. 11:28:30 heh 11:28:49 Phantom_Hoover ????????????????????????????? 11:29:33 hiato‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽ 11:30:48 Phantom_Hoover ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ 11:32:01 hiato¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿ 11:33:50 -!- MizardX has joined. 11:34:07 Phantom_Hoover:؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟ 11:34:16 (took a while to find) 11:34:19 I will not start this again. I will not start this ag... dammit! 11:35:16 heh 11:35:54 h͆̓͌̉ͬ͏̴̪̗͖̼̳͉͇́i̛ͮ̆̽ͮ͒̑̿̚͘҉͍͕̬̼̟̪a̵̲̖̠ͣ͆t̝ͩ͐́̀͟ͅo͆̂͐̓͆̃͋̈́̚͏͇̳̠̙̝̥̻ 11:35:57 ̩̝͔̩͔̄̊́̄͘͢P̠̠̩͓͍̹͇̟̺̋́͐ͭͥ͡h̬̬̭̙̗ͣͮ͐͒̓̆ͅá͔̤͖̭͈̓ͬ̊̃ͧ̈͢n̸͔̠͉͊ͧ̀̓̒̋̏̇̚t̷̢̙̙̯̩̟̝̱͚̻̓ͫo̹̘̥̼̥ͦ͛̕͟m̴͇ͭ̒͂͋̋̔̐̆_͎̭͉̰͍ͩͣͣ̈ͩ̈̉̚̚Hͫͩ҉̰͇̦̳̭͍͎̜͝͡ǫ̷̣̮̘̥̖͓͖͚̥̾͌̆ͨͯ͆͐͗̊͟ö̡̪̠̞͇͑͂͡v̵͋ͩ̆̈ͯ҉͔̜̞̯̮̫̙̻́e̦̟̦͈̘̯̦ͪ̍̓̃ͬ͑ͯ̎̌r 11:36:25 OK, I'm willing to bet that you didn't hand-assemble those diacritics. 11:37:30 Reasonable assumption 11:37:42 So how did you do them? 11:38:42 I googled zalgofier and found what I was looking for 11:39:40 D͓͓̝͚̟̗̈́̏͋̏̈́ͯͭ̕ę̸̢̟̗̩ͦ͛͗̿̈ͫ̑̅̏ͣ̉ͨ͂̆ͩ̔͛͟͝ė̢̡̤̯̠͓̯̪̫̭̦͙̗͛͂̃͐̿͛̽ͣͣ͂̄͊ͬ̈́ͩ͠w͊ͬ̽̉̈́̿́̄ͮ͊̏͟҉̯̞̮̻̤̥̺͟i̶̜͎͈̟͈̘̞͖͔̬̙̘̥̣͉̥̭̠̪̾ͦͥ̒͂ͦͤ̓̐̒ͧ͂͗ͥ̓ͮ́͟a̅ͭͨ̊͢҉̢̡͎̩̭̞̫͙̗̳͝n̴̸̙̹̘̪̬̫̖͙̯̱̝͍͎̦͕͓ͮ̆́ͯͩ͘͝t͋̿͌̍̈́͋ͩ̍̂̓͌́͊ͣͭ́҉̦͔̞̥͖͔̟͙͈̠̻̭̹͡ͅ 11:40:12 Hmmm 11:41:24 Too bad neither my client nor gvim can display it properly 11:44:09 Vim? You sicken me. 11:45:39 We had that discussion around 19 hours ago 11:45:51 Aww, I missed the flame way. 11:45:55 s/way/war/ 11:46:29 Also, Zalgo has made this file unopenable in Firefox. 11:47:46 Yes; I would guess that's because of the line splitting that happened to me 11:54:49 Heh. Firefox was the only program able to render Zalgofied text. 11:55:04 Pidgin can do it too. 12:02:01 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 12:02:47 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:03:07 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 12:17:54 I'M OUT OF CONTROL, CUZ YOU WANT IT ALL, YOU'RE SO DANGEROUS, MY BIGGEST MISTAKE, I'M BLINDED BY YOUR EYESSSSS, [DANGEROUS; D-D-D-DANGEROUS] 12:40:57 is there a programming language which uses chinese for its source? 12:41:08 because that would be, like, pretty damn cool. 12:44:32 Is there such thing as unicode? 12:44:34 BLAARGH, 3D APPS ARE DRIVING ME INSANE! 12:47:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:02:51 i want a 3d script 13:02:53 that would be cool 13:02:57 putting letters in 3d! 13:17:35 You'd need to be 4D to make proper use of it, though. 13:44:09 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:46:02 -!- hiato has joined. 13:49:09 " oktolol: Surely octo?" <<< no 13:49:17 that would make no sense 13:55:39 -!- oktolol has changed nick to oklopol. 13:58:00 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:59:58 -!- hiato has joined. 14:15:03 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 14:15:13 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:15:18 howdy 14:57:37 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:30:24 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:32:12 -!- hiato has joined. 15:34:39 -!- hiato has quit (Client Quit). 15:39:48 -!- relet has joined. 15:45:08 hi 15:46:06 hi 15:48:05 Hie! 15:50:30 Also, have I expressed my desire to murder whoever created the SQA's computing course yet? 15:50:39 SQA? 15:50:54 Scottish Qualifications Authority. 15:51:54 ah 15:52:06 Phantom_Hoover, is this university level? 15:52:13 No. 15:52:22 Further information is classified. 15:52:50 Hm, neither Norway nor Iceland is in the EU? 15:53:03 Nope. 15:53:16 Iceland isn't really in Europe in the first place, though. 15:53:32 Where is it if not in Europe 15:53:51 Near Europe. 15:55:28 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:56:12 IIRC geologically it's on the boundary between America and Europe. 16:19:50 Is it just me, or should there be an easy way to view transparent images on a black background? 16:26:31 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:29:32 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:33:22 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:33:36 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 16:54:13 -!- atrapado has joined. 16:56:07 for every set containing sets there is a set containing exactly the sets contained by the sets in that set 17:02:10 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 17:07:29 for every set there's a set contained in that set that doesn't contain any set contained in the set and no sets of whose are contained in the set 17:15:54 -!- Slereah has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:16:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:18:25 -!- Juh_ has joined. 17:20:00 -!- Juh_ has left (?). 17:24:35 well? 17:29:38 -!- jabb_ has joined. 17:32:27 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:01:26 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Saliendo). 18:06:10 * Phantom_Hoover notices that spaces don't seem to matter in C in anything other than type declarations. 18:07:06 "Helloworld!" 18:07:08 * AnMaster needs ais... 18:07:42 I'm trying to work out the semantics of "extern const note_t volatile * dsound_next_note;" 18:07:55 what does volatile apply to here 18:08:34 const would be applied to the data it points to. But volatile? 18:09:12 AnMaster: volatile means that it should always be directly written to memory right away, instead of floating around loaded in a register when next it's convenient. 18:09:20 Most useful for things like hardware buffers. 18:09:28 pikhq, the pointer or the data pointed to? 18:09:29 Erm. 18:09:32 s/when/until/ 18:09:40 pikhq, that is the question 18:09:45 AnMaster: Uh. I think the data pointed to? 18:09:47 ah 18:09:51 * pikhq googles 18:09:52 I know what volatile in general means of course 18:09:58 the issue was where it applied in this case 18:10:09 -!- DH____ has joined. 18:10:20 pikhq doesn't know everything about C? 18:10:22 pikhq, anyway, it wouldn't be "directly written" it would be "directly read" in this case, since it is const you really aren't supposed to write to it 18:10:37 oklopol, nor do I. But I'm rather new to embedded C programming 18:10:39 which this is 18:10:49 Yes, to say that the object pointed to is volatile should be at the left side of *, and the pointer itself to the right. 18:10:52 Just like const. 18:10:59 right 18:11:03 oklopol: This is one of the few things I *don't* have fully embedded in my head. :) 18:11:13 pikhq, at least it isn't function pointers. That is one thorny bit in C :) 18:11:22 pikhq: dear god... 18:11:27 AnMaster: Argh that gives me such *massive* headaches. 18:11:47 let's see if i'd known the answer... 18:11:52 pikhq, a volatile function pointer, sounds fun ;) 18:12:28 i wouldn't thought "* volatile" means * is volatile, and "volatile *" means pointer to volatile object 18:12:35 now let's see the answer 18:12:46 yay 18:13:09 extern volatile unsigned char AD_C_H; <-- fun thing, this variable is not in any C file, just this header file. It is however in the linker script. 18:13:11 hehe 18:13:16 i usually filter out the content with subjects like this, but i realized i have actually coded in c 18:13:23 anyone know where GNU ld linker script syntax is documented? 18:13:38 preferably not info pages, I treat that as last resort 18:13:43 "anyone know where baoiuhbeorijgeaorigjeag?" 18:13:57 see the world through my eyes 18:13:58 Is ':' used for anything important in C? 18:13:59 oklopol, well, where else should I ask than in here? 18:14:10 Phantom_Hoover: x ? y : z; foo: goto foo; 18:14:10 AnMaster: i'm not saying you shouldn't ask here 18:14:11 Phantom_Hoover, a ? b : c; 18:14:17 case 4: break; 18:14:17 Phantom_Hoover: Also labels. 18:14:24 pikhq, as Deewiant said 18:14:24 And cases in a switch statement. 18:14:28 i'm just saying you shouldn't ask me :P 18:14:29 and that as well 18:14:41 oklopol, I didn't highlight you? 18:14:47 AnMaster: i didn't say you did 18:14:47 So what symbol could you use to indicate type? 18:14:50 ah okay 18:16:28 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:16:42 :: would work 18:38:56 Is it turing-complete? 18:38:56 given that events can be reduced to function calls, I would say yes 18:38:56 logically reduced, anyway 18:39:26 what does that mean 18:39:41 oklopol, ##nomic 18:39:45 http://lomic.info/ 18:49:57 Hmm, so int::main(){printf("helloworld");return(0);} 18:50:04 A spaceless program. 18:50:36 Omit the "int::" and you have it in plain C. 18:51:05 (Except that it's invalid since you're calling printf without a prototype) 18:52:24 Prototypeless printf works on my system, but it gives a warning. 18:52:47 It works on all systems AFAIK, but it's not valid. 18:53:15 Indeed. 18:53:16 Maybe it is valid if you pass only one argument, though; not sure about that. 18:53:18 So... 18:53:55 main(){printf("Hello,%cworld!\n",10);} 18:54:03 Spaceless hello world. 18:54:08 The canonical version. 18:54:15 Phantom_Hoover: Also, undefined behavior. 18:54:48 main(){puts("Hello,\0xA0world!\n");} // I *think* this is valid? 18:55:20 You could possibly use write(). 18:55:24 Yes: it'll print "Hello," since the string terminates there. 18:55:37 If you didn't care about portability. 18:55:42 Deewiant: No it doesn't. 18:55:48 Erm. \0 18:55:49 Yes it does. 18:55:51 YES IT DOES GAH 18:55:55 \xA0 18:55:57 \040 would work, though. 18:56:12 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, that's what I want. 18:56:21 Phantom_Hoover: write() is perfectly portable. 18:56:29 It works on all POSIXen. 18:56:32 Windows? 18:56:42 Nope. 18:57:33 Not Windows without Cygwin. 18:58:07 You could just use putchar, you know. 19:01:37 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 19:08:06 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:17:34 -!- kar8nga has quit (*.net *.split). 19:17:35 -!- uorygl has quit (*.net *.split). 19:17:35 -!- Geekthras has quit (*.net *.split). 19:17:36 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split). 19:17:37 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 19:17:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to fungot. 19:18:01 -!- fungot has changed nick to kar8nga. 19:18:09 -!- kar8nga has changed nick to fungot. 19:18:31 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:19:28 -!- uorygl has joined. 19:20:24 asdf 19:20:29 -!- fungot has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 19:20:31 herlo 19:20:35 how are you fungot 19:22:43 -!- Geekthras has joined. 19:24:22 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:43:41 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:45:39 Googling "why sucks" is quite fun. 19:49:01 * oklopol immediately had to google why go sucks 19:51:58 it only mentions Go as Gene Ontology... 19:53:07 I tried Brainfuck, it wasn't that fun 19:55:51 it wasn't, you should try clue instead 19:55:55 *isn't 19:56:33 * FireFly considers not to try Self 19:56:36 Seems people think that Perl, Ruby and Python suck roughly as much (similar number of results) but Perl sucks the most of the three... 19:56:42 i should work on clue at some point, there's an obvious fix i should make to the language, but that requires programming 19:58:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot). 19:59:09 'No results found for "why Modula-2 sucks"' 19:59:18 -!- Oranjer has joined. 19:59:33 Nerds don't get angry about esolangs. 20:00:33 i just get mad about non-esolangs, with esolangs it's okay if something trivial is hard to do, with other languages it feels like a waste of time 20:01:33 How about a language which emails some programmers kept in a basement and promises them food if they make a working program from your design notes. 20:01:47 Like converting Str to Char in Delphi? I always found that hard... 20:02:06 Can't you just index? 20:02:06 You have to find the Ascii value... 20:02:42 I haven't programmed in Pascal for a year, but I recall strings being arrays of chars. 20:03:39 Delphi I always had slight quirks - String was TString, a class of TObject... 20:04:56 An there was no built-in function for converting between Integer and Real - you had to try and build your own using loopholes... 20:05:21 Madness. 20:05:39 I liked it though... 20:06:31 I simulated Reals myself using LongInts and writing a string function to move the dp... 20:06:53 Can you do OOP in C through a library? 20:06:59 It seems like it should be possible. 20:07:54 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, that's how GTK works. 20:07:55 Although hideous. 20:08:04 And yes, it is *hideous*. 20:08:06 Wait, someone actually *did* that? 20:08:16 Yes, it's called GObject. 20:08:23 Which is a major part of Glib. 20:08:31 I am gobsmacked. 20:13:28 -!- cal153 has joined. 20:16:05 Everything in Lisp is basically a pointer, isn't it? 20:16:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 20:16:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has quit (Changing host). 20:16:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 20:16:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Disconnected by services). 20:16:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 20:26:23 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:31:02 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 20:31:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:35:24 Remind me to post this to alise when e gets back 20:35:25 http://shitampersand.com/ 20:36:27 Although I don't get what's so bad about the keycaps one 20:38:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lambda_calculus#Proposed_criticism_of_lambda_calculus 20:39:11 Rather funny. 20:42:07 Sgeo_: it says right there, apparently there's no such thing as ampersand key on keyboards except for mac and mac is so useless they should've left ampersand out of the font 20:42:30 i do have an ampersand key tho, who the fuck doesn't have an ampersand key? 20:42:48 But that's obviously untrue, but surely there must be some valid reason to criticize it 20:43:14 looks fine to me 20:43:33 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to migomipo. 20:44:38 indeed 20:48:54 oklopol: Isn't it Shift-7? 20:51:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:51:52 or Shift-6 on older keyboards... 20:56:17 What do I do once I've designed and implemented an esoteric language? 20:56:30 You tell everyone! 20:56:52 Preferably *after* writing at least cat, and if possible "Hello, world!". 20:57:16 And it working, of course. 20:57:46 Cause I can write those based on my design, but I have yet to implement it :P 21:05:24 jabb_, there are some languages on the wiki that are impossible to implement 21:06:56 Well, *theoretically*. 21:07:07 They're implementable once we discover FTL. 21:07:27 How does FTL lead to super-Turing-complete? 21:10:01 FTL → violation of causality 21:10:26 Violation of causality → TwoDucks interpreter. 21:10:51 TwoDucks interpreter → Super-Turing computation. 21:12:37 Super-Turing computation -> fuck it, we can has halting oracle. 21:13:13 The cool thing is that I don't think it leads to inconsistency. 21:13:33 Provided that it's only an oracle for Turing machines. 21:14:14 Which it would be, because if it has the time travel instruction added, it can interfere with the oracle. 21:15:04 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, a machine with a halting oracle still possesses its own analogue to the halting problem. 21:15:47 If P(oracle) isn't evaluable by the oracle, there's no problem, right? 21:16:44 Right; that's how the halting problem manifests itself on Super-Turing machines. 21:17:39 TwoDucks is implementable if you ignore the ability to retrieve from the future 21:18:14 I write the ugliest Python code ever, I'm going back to C 21:19:27 Wait, the TwoDucks spec seems to conflict with the example 21:19:48 It is unclear how it would work at all. 21:19:55 SEND v TO t; Assignment across time; assign the value of variable v (in the present) to the variable v as it existed at time t (in the past or future). 21:20:13 If that's correct, the first example should not cause a paradox afaict 21:20:29 Although that description also doesn't send v to t. It retrieves v from t 21:22:35 * Phantom_Hoover investigates 21:24:12 Sgeo_: Is that better? 21:25:05 Yes 21:25:19 Although now I see the original spec could be interpreted either way 21:26:21 Actually, it still looks ambiguous 21:26:30 Maybe my brain's not functioning properly 21:26:33 BE HAPPY. 21:28:32 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:32:22 herlo 21:32:29 i have slept long. 21:35:53 Once I finish the interpreter I'll post it here. 21:41:14 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 21:43:46 Hmm, no-one seems to have posted the oracle yet, 21:45:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:48:40 OK, is the oracle I added to the TwoDucks article correct? 21:50:42 To me it looks ok, but I might be wrong 21:52:20 It was written on the fly, but there's no reason it won't work. 21:52:41 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 21:52:41 And if paradoxes don't destroy the universe we have a Turing oracle. 21:53:09 With a rewrite implementation, it would first claim it doens't halt, then if it halts, it changes it and pretends it always knew it halted 21:54:49 hahah i like this explanation 21:56:19 -!- rodgort has joined. 21:58:29 Wow, MediaWiki's DPL code looks weird. 21:58:41 "listseparators =,¶:* [[%PAGE%¦%PAGE%]], " 22:01:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:01:16 oerjan! 22:01:28 I implemented the halting oracle in TwoDucks! 22:01:37 Ghost_Vacuum! 22:01:49 aha 22:02:11 So now we must invent FTL! 22:02:19 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:02:46 OK, need to suspend. 22:02:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:13:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:13:38 Hi, everybody! 22:15:26 Hi! 22:15:56 What's the language like? 22:17:44 I can show you the design 22:18:04 It reminds me of assembly, except it has dynamic arrays 22:18:22 http://ideone.com/wuz3Q 22:27:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:28:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:29:32 Hey, some of your Zalgo got stuck at the bottom of my terminal, below the bottom line. 22:29:51 Cool. 22:46:21 Zalgo? 22:48:28 * Sgeo_ is officially declaring war on Gregor 22:50:11 ? 22:50:35 He hates pizza! 22:51:13 He *is* anosmic. 22:51:43 * Sgeo_ did not know that 22:53:15 Anosmic? 22:53:57 * Phantom_Hoover Googles 22:54:03 Wow, that must suck. 22:54:25 -!- migomipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:00:40 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:01:10 No tea for him. 23:02:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:04:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:09:14 semantic analysis down! 23:11:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:13:04 He has taste buds, I'd assume 23:13:18 Not that those are particularly useful, admittedly 23:15:28 -!- oktolol has joined. 23:15:42 Yes, but tea sucks ass without olfactation apparently. 23:22:27 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:30:14 Have we ever learned why he can't smell? 23:43:34 he's built upside down, so his nose runs rather than smells. his feet on the other hand... 23:45:06 -!- ArcticDeath has joined. 23:55:24 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 2010-06-04: 00:17:00 solved problem 1 of project euler in brainfuck :D (ok, ok, it needs a weird brainfuck with at least 18-bit wide cells and number i/o instead of character i/o) 00:25:47 http://aw.eso.me.uk/p/?show=f4b3bfce0 00:25:50 good night guys 00:26:09 night 00:26:44 also i just noticed that the 4th line of the loop for 3's can be shortened 00:26:46 but anyway... 00:28:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 00:31:33 -!- ArcticDeath has left (?). 00:32:13 jamesstanley, given 8-bit BF, you can um, simulate 8^2n bit BF easily 00:32:15 iirc 00:33:45 And itoa isn't hard to do. 00:34:42 itoa? 00:34:47 int to string? 00:36:49 Yuh. 00:37:00 So he could output numbers. 00:39:31 What about inputting numbers? 00:41:00 * Sgeo_ starts thinking about transformations of BF code and order in which such are applied 00:42:10 Sgeo_: That's a trivial matter of parsing. 00:49:05 -!- jabb_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 01:07:08 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has joined. 01:07:30 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:17:16 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:20:29 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:21:51 -!- DH____ has joined. 01:29:23 I found out how to fix the game_id so that it matched of the filename of the module: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/ruleset/ Now you must rename each file, otherwise it won't work!!!! 01:29:28 !!!!!!!!!!! 01:30:26 I also added in a Interactive Exec command, so that you can enter a Python code at run-time. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/plugin/extra_commands.py 01:31:49 Now I invented the idea for HighForth with is like Forth but with high-level functions and it can be used with other high-level functions such as JavaScript, Python, etc. 01:31:58 An example code is: : 2+ 2 + ; 01:32:15 Which can also be written as: [[ 2 + ]] CONSTANT `2+ 01:32:41 Or: NULL DATA-OPEN 2 L, `+ , DATA-CLOSE COMPILE CONSTANT `2+ 01:33:08 Or: 2 `+ 1 CURRY CONSTANT `2+ 01:33:22 Or even a bunch of other ways. 01:35:44 Or: NULL DATA-OPEN 2 L, +` EXIT` DATA-CLOSE COMPILE CONSTANT `2+ 01:36:15 Or: 2 1[[ + ]] CONSTANT `2+ 01:36:26 Or: 2 1 S[[ + ]] CONSTANT `2+ 01:52:26 -!- Tritonio_GR1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:10:04 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:11:52 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 02:18:14 -!- cheater99 has joined. 02:33:34 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:33:34 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 02:33:43 This is how the simple IRC log format can be written: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/SIRCL 02:48:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:50:01 -!- coppro has joined. 02:55:34 -!- Gregor has joined. 03:15:33 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:16:08 -!- coppro has joined. 03:21:15 http://codu.org/tmp/BalMusetteNocturne-wipp1.mp3 Gregor attempts to play two musical instruments at once and records it poorly! 03:21:31 Gregor accidentally bolds things! 03:22:03 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRv8gnBMiWM 03:24:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:24:55 Gregor also uses mp3 for once! 03:24:57 The horror! 03:25:14 I made it ogg, but the first person I sent it to I knew wouldn't be able to play a .ogg :P 03:25:30 Ah. 03:28:41 I see you have no opinion on the music itself :P 03:29:05 I've not listened yet. 03:29:10 :P 04:05:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: LOGGING OF FOR WEEK. MUAHAHAH.). 04:16:54 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:17:07 Sometimes the log file is application/octet-stream by mistake? 04:18:59 Which IRC server softwares can be compiled with the GNU C compiler and can work on Windows and on Linux? 05:34:18 dunno 05:35:03 seven's at git clone git://git.freenode.net/ircd-seven.git 05:35:34 I found ngIRCd I think I will use that one. If I can get it to compile 05:45:26 Gregor: did you learn to play the harmonica just for that? or is it a different instrument or you knew it already or 05:45:45 i actually first thought i'd just comment on everything except the music but then i thought it'd be a bit too obvious 05:45:54 -!- oktolol has changed nick to oklopol. 05:46:03 I'm glad that you think I can do impossible things on the harmonica. 05:46:07 i love how mirc shoves all my past mistakes in my face for the rest of my life 05:46:11 It's nice to know you have that kind of confidence in me. 05:46:25 Well, not impossible, but the kinds of things that people study the harmonica for YEARS to be able to do. 05:46:29 However, that's not a harmonica. 05:46:38 i thought the fast things are just you moving your mouth over the thing 05:46:43 err along it 05:46:57 The chords are the real complication :P 05:47:10 Since some of them would involve tonguing an intervening hole on a harmonica. 05:47:19 well i have crappy quality, i thought there was just thirds 05:47:31 hmm 05:47:33 oh right 05:47:42 Yeah, the audio quality is bad since I don't have decent recording equipment :P 05:48:57 Not gonna continue instrument guessing? 05:49:32 yeah and i'm using my laptop's speakers and they are hammering the other side of the wall and boring through it 05:49:47 drilling 05:50:09 Well, it's a melodica, so you wouldn't have guessed it anyway :P 05:50:17 err i don't really know much about instruments, harmonicas and well okay make that sound 05:50:24 the list would've included melodica 05:50:30 if i'd remembered its name 05:50:39 The fact that you've heard of it is astounding ... 05:50:59 it's the thing you blow into and play like a piano? 05:51:26 Yup 05:52:13 i have heard the name lots of times, anyway i gotta go to uni so have fun with your instruments -> 05:52:33 er heard of the instrument or the name? 05:52:38 because the instrument is common 05:52:42 ??? 05:52:44 Common where? 05:52:49 I'd never seen one. 05:52:53 all the cool kids have them 05:53:00 WELL THEN I'M COOL NOW 05:53:04 i dunno, i've had at least one 05:53:17 and i just met one at a thing 05:53:45 * Sgeo_ decides that he <3 Zelda music 05:53:52 maybe it's like our national instrument dunno 05:53:53 -> 05:54:12 Actually, I made that decision a long time ago 06:08:25 I loaded ngIRCd into Cygwin but now it is error message It doesn't work it says "bash: make: command not found" 06:11:13 What is wrong? 06:14:28 you don't have make? 06:19:04 I have make in MinGW but in Cygwin it says it doesn't? 06:21:06 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:22:31 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 06:47:05 Which package is "make" program? 06:49:45 What other packages are required to compile ngIRCd? 06:49:45 dunno 06:49:49 dunno 06:50:38 -!- FireyFly has joined. 06:57:02 In the Free Geek they now have the newest version of Ubuntu on their servers, but it has some things missing, even the "mail" command doesn't work 06:57:52 It says tell the administrator to install these softwares, he wasn't in on that day and how else can it be done without "mail" command? 07:06:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:13:27 -!- relet has joined. 07:17:11 Cygwin installer keeps displaying error messages about files that are in use, even though they aren't in use (I checked the permissions, I also checked the processes) 07:17:41 I also have one process that will not go away, process 924 cmd.exe 07:19:00 Attempting to terminate the process does nothing, attempting to debug gives error message that it cannot execute the program 07:21:03 Now Cygwin Setup seems stuck! 07:22:33 Now everything is stuck 07:23:17 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:25:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:28:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:40:21 -!- jabb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:42:12 -!- jabb has joined. 07:50:04 ...hello 07:50:05 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 07:50:19 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 07:52:30 Hi! 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:54 Does this look esoteric: (0)3< (1)10< @; (1)20*(1)< (^)(,_1)>` (0)>1-< ! ? 08:08:38 yep 08:24:22 :o 08:24:35 yes it does. 08:27:02 I have that running in my interpreter succesfully 08:38:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:47:23 btw, I successfully got my compiler to compile a working brainfuck interpreter the other week, that was fun 09:04:30 Cool, there's a low-level x86 Common Lisp implementation. 09:04:39 olsner: Compiler for what? 09:08:27 Phantom_Hoover: Got a cat example going 09:08:51 Does it halt on EoF? 09:09:02 yeah 09:09:05 just tested it 09:20:05 Right, standard procedure once you have an interpreter and working examples is to post it on the wiki. 09:20:18 Although I would advise you strongly not to post the interpreter there. 09:20:30 (The code, I mean) 09:20:47 googlecode? 09:20:52 github? 09:21:31 Pretty much wherever. 09:21:54 Except the wiki is entirely public domain, so if you want to have any control over the license don't post it there. 09:27:24 which commonly-used color space is the biggest? 09:28:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Colorspace.png seems relevant. 09:30:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:30:51 useful, but that seems to be mostly RGB spaces 09:31:24 The rainbow? 09:31:50 Since it contains every frequency of light from the sun 09:32:03 Although you can't combine them... 09:41:10 -!- augur has joined. 10:00:38 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:02:31 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:04:34 -!- e2e has joined. 10:12:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:14:53 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:19:09 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 10:24:16 http://www.ecanadanow.com/curiosity/2010/06/03/the-newest-high-vodka-eyeballing/ Dear god, the youth of today are stupid. 10:25:42 I hope that it's just a media invention. 10:26:04 Sadly, the thing about them burning bins to get high off the fumes seems not to have been. 10:27:01 What? No they burn bins because it's fun... 10:27:35 Hmm, admittedly the citation for that was the Metro. 10:27:58 Which has lower journalistic standards than, say, a pigeon. 10:28:33 The Metro's one of the more reliable papers, I find. Would you rather beleive the Sun? Or the Mail? 10:28:43 No. 10:28:50 I believe no-one! 10:28:55 Not even you! 10:29:11 Anyone with more underscores than letters in their nick is not to be trusted. 10:29:36 I don't know why it did that... 10:29:52 I set my name as DH and it added them to the end... 10:30:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to PH______________. 10:30:24 I am exceedingly untrustworthy now. 10:34:04 -!- tombom has joined. 10:34:07 Nah, you seem to be up front about everything 10:34:13 -!- jabb has changed nick to __jabb. 10:34:19 <__jabb> I'm unstrustworthy 10:34:35 No you're not! 10:34:57 Your underscore:letter ratio is only 1:2. 10:36:49 * PH______________ has written possibly the ugliest line of code in his life 10:37:04 <__jabb> I wish to see it 10:37:21 (set-weight neuron output (+ (car range) (random (coerce (- (car range) (cdr range)) 'double-float))))) 10:37:55 The first time I tried I got lost in parentheses, so I had to undo and rewrite it very carefully. 10:38:36 <__jabb> I'm a lisp noob 10:39:07 And I used cdr when I should have used cadr, too... 10:41:09 And I got various indices wrong. Oh well, it's fixed now. 10:52:58 heyo 10:54:19 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 11:06:12 augur! 11:07:16 hey 11:07:19 Gracenotes! :D 11:07:52 I don't recall Gracenotes ever actually saying anything... 11:08:51 hes magical 11:08:54 he doesnt have to 11:09:49 but you can be magical too!!! 11:10:01 How? 11:10:11 don't you see?? 11:10:13 lol 11:10:15 I tried learning Lisp, but that didn't work; nor did Haskell. 11:10:15 sorry 11:10:27 random bs 11:10:41 Oh, by not saying anything. 11:10:49 But that doesn't make me magical. 11:11:05 Magic requires that I don't *have* to say anything. 11:11:13 fungot? 11:11:24 Oh, no! 11:11:33 I'm a fairy princess 11:12:19 in a way 11:13:28 -!- softmoon has joined. 11:14:14 e2e: Which way? 11:14:31 I 11:14:39 don't 11:14:42 know 11:15:39 levitation 11:17:08 wait thats false 11:17:22 nm 11:17:29 Do anyone know something about Lali Puna? 11:19:28 what about it 11:21:06 I do not know something about music 11:22:54 -!- softmoon has quit (Quit: softmoon). 11:45:13 -!- e2e has quit. 11:52:21 Is there any browser scripting language other than JavaScript? 11:57:02 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:04:21 <__jabb> html 12:04:24 <__jabb> buahahahaha 12:08:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:09:04 -!- augur has joined. 12:21:04 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 12:32:31 Hrm 12:32:42 A function that returns its argument, x → x, what's it called again? 12:32:44 * FireFly forgets 12:34:51 identity function 12:35:01 Ah, yeah, thanks 12:35:32 There was a "you'll forget your own identity next" pseudo-pun waiting there. 12:37:59 PH______________: VBScript, PerlScript 12:40:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:40:26 -!- augur has joined. 12:43:53 :o 12:44:19 * CakeProphet is learning about SM in Haskell 12:44:24 I think I understand it, just need to see it in use. 12:44:38 Haskell SM? Eew. 12:46:54 Deewiant: Are they standardised? 12:47:04 What do you mean 12:48:15 <__jabb> PH: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Mimsy 12:48:55 I thought "mimsy" was from Jabberwocky. 12:49:16 "All mimsy were the borogroves, and the mome raths outgrabe." 12:49:36 VBScript is only supported in Windows, and PerlScript requires ActivePerl and therefore also Windows. 12:49:45 <__jabb> which is a poem from Through the Looking Glass :P 12:49:54 Oh, really? 12:49:57 <__jabb> yeah 12:50:06 <__jabb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabberwocky 12:50:22 Also, the language looks pretty good. 12:50:35 It's sufficiently like line noise. 12:50:54 And it maintains a healthy disregard for whitespace. 12:51:05 <__jabb> :D 12:51:36 * CakeProphet thinks his tree-based language will be sweet. 12:53:26 PH______________, that is one irritating nick! 12:53:44 I'm trying to be untrustworthy. 12:54:14 (I'm Phantom_Hoover, if you haven't realised) 12:54:51 I did realise that from /whois 12:54:59 and I suspected it before that 12:56:46 (10:28:47) Phantom Hoover: Anyone with more underscores than letters in their nick is not to be trusted. 12:56:50 That is why. 12:58:38 I see 12:58:50 PH______________, anyone with a space in their nick is not to be trusted at all 12:58:58 since that doesn't work 12:58:59 I don't acutally have one. 12:59:04 It's the client. 12:59:05 PH______________, what about that quote then? 12:59:11 s/acutally/actually/ 12:59:13 okay, such clients are not to be trusted 12:59:20 Very probably. 12:59:33 I'll probably change in a while. 13:00:02 PH______________, oh? 13:00:11 btw "-PH______________- VERSION Purple IRC", never heard about that 13:00:23 On the other hand, irssi had my real name on whois, and I couldn't see how to change it easily. 13:00:31 PH______________, the irssi config 13:00:35 I presume 13:00:37 AnMaster: Toying with Pidgin. It's vaguely tolerable. 13:00:45 PH______________, probably called gecos or such 13:00:46 not sure 13:00:52 since I don't use irssi 13:01:03 What do you use? 13:01:07 PH______________: /set name 13:01:14 PH______________, ERC, haven't I told you before? 13:01:23 * PH______________ goes off to change his client again 13:01:26 -!- PH______________ has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 13:03:32 Deewiant, did you see that idea a few days ago about befunge with branch delay slots? 13:03:46 Yes, I did 13:04:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:04:17 I was going to comment about that being very feral for a fingerprint but decided not to 13:05:29 Deewiant, not as a fingerprint I thought, but as a fungiod 13:05:56 (sorry for slow reply, had to clean my glasses due to small accident there) 13:06:21 You did say "as a fingerprint perhaps", but yes. 13:06:39 hm, maybe I did 13:06:41 And a reply isn't slow unless it takes at least five minutes to come. 13:06:50 2010-06-02 01:25:20( AnMaster) as a fingerprint perhaps 13:06:50 heh 13:07:27 hm, as a fingerprint it is much less useful than as a core feature of a fungoid 13:07:42 since the latter would allow a nice pipeline in a hardware implementation 13:07:56 while the former would have to enable that only sometimes 13:08:03 and require dual implementation or something 13:09:39 Fingerprint? 13:10:34 Phantom_Hoover, befunge98 thing, kind of like a loadable library of functions that the interpreter provides, will be loaded on A-Z 13:10:47 fungot uses SOCK and a few other ones for example 13:10:51 hey, where is fungot? fizzie! 13:13:19 Let's see. 13:13:23 (Just arrived home today.) 13:13:38 fizzie, hi! 13:13:40 * Phantom_Hoover whistles innocently 13:13:44 Phantom_Hoover, what? 13:14:23 -!- fungot has joined. 13:14:29 <__jabb> He's unstrustworthy 13:14:33 I kinda sorta changed my nick to fungot during a netsplit. 13:14:33 Phantom_Hoover: i'm still learning 13:14:39 -!- __jabb has changed nick to jabb. 13:14:44 __jabb, I'm not anymore. 13:14:58 I don't believe you 13:15:02 No underscores, see? 13:15:05 The nick-change seems to have not been related: RAW >>> ERROR :Closing Link: momus.zem.fi (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) <<< 13:15:15 (If it drops, it won't try to reconnect.) 13:18:13 Phantom_Hoover, one underscore! 13:18:45 True, but the ratio of underscores to letters is low. 13:20:06 fungot 13:20:07 Phantom_Hoover: don't take your class as any indication of decision of opinion whatsoever.). 13:20:15 ^style 13:20:15 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 13:21:41 It reverts to that style on startup by default. 13:25:54 !haskell print (show "Hello") 13:26:13 "\"Hello\"" 13:28:10 !haskell print $ read "print" 13:28:11 *** Exception: Prelude.read: no parse 13:29:33 !haskell print $ read "1" :: Int 13:30:26 !haskell print (read "1" :: Int) 13:30:28 1 13:31:01 !hasle;; print (read $ show "print" :: String) 13:31:06 !haslell print (read $ show "print" :: String) 13:31:20 !haslell print (read (show "print") :: String) 13:31:26 s/haslell/haskell/ 13:31:34 !haskell print (read (show "print") :: String) 13:31:35 ...ah 13:31:36 David Haskellhoff. 13:31:36 "print" 13:32:47 !Haskell print $ [(+1), (+2), (+3), negate] <$> 3 13:32:56 !haskell print $ [(+1), (+2), (+3), negate] <$> 3 13:33:27 ...we need lambdabot. 13:34:42 !haskell import Control.Applicative; main = print $ [(+1), (+2), (+3), negate] <$> 3 13:36:28 !haskell import Control.Applicative; main = print $ [(+1), (+2), (+3), negate] <*> pure 3 13:36:30 [4,5,6,-3] 13:39:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:39:36 -!- augur has joined. 13:40:40 augur, 13:40:42 ! 13:40:58 xyzzy, 13:40:59 ni! 13:41:08 xyzygy 13:41:22 fungot, 13:41:22 Phantom_Hoover: ' but initialize it from a file, so i keep to 255 byte lines much pain. but oh well its a known fact that the syntax-rules word does is remove the ever so slight overhead of a function 13:41:23 R! 13:44:13 C++ is outdated btw. It wants to preserve the class system all the injustices that implies. 13:44:21 * AnMaster runs 13:44:22 -!- Moult has joined. 13:44:32 -!- Moult has left (?). 13:45:52 AnMaster, everything uses the class system. 13:45:57 Except JavaScript. 13:46:03 oh? 13:46:12 JavaScript: Program equality. 13:46:38 really? wouldn't the ability to determine that solve the halting problem? ;P 13:46:52 Urgh. 13:47:05 Well, once we get FTL travel... 13:47:16 what has that got to do with it? 13:48:26 Well, not much, since that's not useful if you don't have infinite memory 13:48:32 FTL → time travel → TwoDucks interpreter → halting oracle. 13:49:00 But time travel violates quantum unitarity, though 13:49:14 Dammit. 13:49:35 Phantom_Hoover, also it requires infinite space as well 13:49:51 and how does FTL imply time travel? 13:49:51 That doesn't stop us normally. 13:50:00 AnMaster: Relativity. 13:50:08 hm 13:50:17 does it allow going backward in time? 13:50:23 or just slowing it down/speeding it up? 13:50:56 It allows violation of causality, which is basically time travel. 13:51:02 AnMaster: if you can go faster than light 13:51:06 and relativity holds 13:51:10 then you travel backwards in time 13:52:36 augur, ah right 13:52:54 assuming relativity holds. 14:05:22 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:24:05 -!- ineiros has changed nick to ineiros__. 14:24:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:24:52 -!- augur has joined. 14:25:33 -!- ineiros__ has quit (Quit: .). 14:32:00 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why on earth one would possibly want a logical XOR operator. 14:33:24 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 14:33:26 Completeness is one reason. 14:33:53 implicit conversion of its operands to boolean type, and it looks better than !!x != !!y 14:34:30 But in what context would you need it? 14:37:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:40:23 i've needed a logical xor many times 14:40:40 For what sort of things? 14:40:42 can't think of a situation tho 14:40:44 ^ 14:40:58 for when i've needed exactly one of two things to be true, obviously 14:41:11 rare, but i recall needing it multiple times 14:41:41 I recall there being a comment from Larry Wall about why he didn't want a ^^ operator because he didn't want to spend forever telling people why it didn't short-circuit. 14:41:55 heh 14:52:00 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:52:23 * Phantom_Hoover has an overwhelming desire to do low-level code 15:08:10 hmmm I wonder if you could use a constrain-enabled type system to automate unit testing. 15:08:24 Phantom_Hoover: make a bitchin' VM 15:10:37 give it support for stuff like function pointers.... profit? 15:13:43 but yeah.. constraints and types.. so 15:13:55 Haskell's system only lets you specify whole sets of objects 15:14:13 Int passes for all system-bound integer values... 15:15:02 CakeProphet: Define "bitchin'". 15:15:42 but if you could do like (Int within [1..100])... the type checker could use that information to invalid a program based on data-sets that won't match up at runtime. 15:15:54 Phantom_Hoover: I don't know. Uses something previous unused in VM design. 15:15:59 an esoteric VM 15:16:05 Been done. 15:16:50 hmmm 15:17:07 (t | c) where t is a type and c is a constraint. 15:17:09 Although... 15:17:16 constraints would be like... type-level predicate functions sort of. 15:17:37 In the Lazy K spec it suggests that it could be used as bytecode for a VM. 15:17:46 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:18:08 Phantom_Hoover: well... do something different 15:18:13 but equally bitchin' 15:18:20 No, I mean actually write the VM. 15:18:29 ...ah 15:18:41 Lazy K is an incredibly functional language, so it could be fun. 15:18:58 hmmm... 15:19:12 * CakeProphet is thinking about constraints and type systems. 15:19:58 conditionals would change constraints on a type. 15:20:08 -!- hiato has joined. 15:20:21 if (x>100) f (x) else x 15:20:44 the constraint on x changes for each of those nested expressions 15:21:04 I also have a couple of old BF interpreters lying around, and it would be trivial to adjust them to be more VMy. 15:21:06 in the truth-expression x is Int | x > 100 15:21:19 Phantom_Hoover: What about a VM that operates on a tree? 15:21:31 instead of the stack/register based designs. 15:21:35 Hang on. 15:21:57 IIRC lazy languages use trees to evaluate. 15:22:01 Ooh. 15:22:11 :) 15:22:16 there you go... 15:22:38 OTOH low-level functional programming is an underexplored concept, so there's nothing to build on... 15:22:45 Right, let's get designing. 15:22:46 Phantom_Hoover: what I like about a tree design is that you can integrate a lot of POSIX-type stuff into the language 15:22:52 like... have a virtual filesystem of sorts 15:23:02 if you allow for naming of tree nodes as well as enumeration 15:23:08 Yes, but it would be nice if it was lazy and functional as well. 15:23:25 OK, so source and data should both be trees, which seems sensible. 15:23:30 ...lazy VM? I'd say only provide operations for /supporting/ lazy evaluation 15:23:34 but make the VM itself eager 15:23:49 Baah, no! 15:24:02 .. well, if you think there's benefit to having it lazy. 15:24:02 Low-level lazy evaluation is much interestinger. 15:24:09 It's esoteric! 15:24:15 rofl. granted. 15:24:29 * CakeProphet was thinking of a practical VM... for implementing lazy languages. 15:24:32 Eager evaluation is so 19**s. 15:24:37 or only partially lazy languages. 15:24:52 IO for example... can specify certain expressions to be lazy at a method level 15:25:02 rather than having everything implicitly lazy. 15:25:33 Lazy K is completely lazily evaluated and manages IO pretty well. 15:25:44 ...er, I meant io the language 15:25:46 not IO 15:25:59 Oh. 15:26:03 io is eager 15:26:05 !wiki IO 15:26:08 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 15:26:08 but methods take lazy parameters 15:26:11 `wiki IO 15:26:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:26:20 -!- augur has joined. 15:26:27 !google io 15:26:29 http://google.com/search?q=io 15:26:34 looool 15:26:36 No output. 15:26:46 !google io programming language 15:26:47 http://google.com/search?q=io+programming+language 15:26:55 Hmm. 15:27:06 It seems like it's intended to be *useful*. 15:27:10 BOO! 15:27:34 io =/= iota? 15:27:42 ...different. 15:27:46 No. 15:27:51 io is not iota 15:28:09 Lazy K would actually be feasible, since it runs purely at the SKI level. 15:28:13 Phantom_Hoover: usefulness doesn't exclude novelty of concept. :) 15:28:37 So it's innately tree-based as it is. 15:28:58 what I was thinking of was a VM that explicitly operates on a global tree 15:29:12 So the I-less cat program, ``skk would become... 15:29:13 and then particular lazy languages could implement how laziness works. 15:29:39 OK, so the low-level code manipulates a tree? 15:29:51 ...that's how I would see it working. 15:29:56 And then we write an interpreter for a lazy language in that? 15:30:00 Hmm, interesting. 15:30:07 I always think a VM should model hardware somewhat closely 15:30:11 but provide abstraction 15:30:14 Would code be in the tree as well? 15:30:20 For the low-level language. 15:30:24 it's possible to set it up that way. 15:30:31 but it has to be tree-based code 15:30:40 Is there actually a hardware structure for trees? 15:30:44 ...no. 15:30:50 OK. 15:30:54 Just wondering. 15:30:58 well 15:31:00 filesystem 15:31:01 is the only one 15:31:03 that's tree-like 15:31:13 but that's not strictly hardware 15:31:19 Indeed. 15:31:19 just low-level. 15:31:26 OK, so the low-level code. 15:31:45 If it's implemented as a tree, it would seem like it would be quite functional already. 15:31:54 ...what I've come up with for this kind of stuff is that nodes are enumerated... and optionally can be given labels. 15:31:57 that are hierarchial 15:32:06 so if you name a node x... inside the parent node y... and its parent is root 15:32:06 OK. 15:32:10 then you have /y/x 15:32:11 to refer to x 15:32:19 OK. 15:32:59 ....so you could implement scoping rules like that perhaps. 15:33:16 ...also I'd say there should be a way to reference other nodes and jump to them. 15:33:50 also... types? 15:33:58 most VMs have a fixed number of types 15:34:05 regist-erbased vms like Parrot, for example 15:34:32 have int registers, float registers, byte registers, and "object" registers 15:34:41 object registers basically being pointer registers... 15:35:11 I don't know how a tree would handle types. 15:35:25 -!- saxamo has joined. 15:35:30 Each node has a type? 15:35:36 that's a possibility. 15:36:00 another alternative is to have a tree for each type 15:36:01 -!- saxamo has left (?). 15:36:04 but that might ruin the design. 15:36:21 It sort of loses the elegance of having a single, global tree. 15:36:25 yes. 15:36:50 well... if all of your data structures are the same byte-size 15:36:51 all is well 15:36:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:36:58 the best way to do that is to make pointers to everything. 15:37:17 Probably. 15:37:23 that's how PYthon gets dynamic typing... everything is a pointer to a single C struct. 15:37:43 but that's kind of inefficient I think. 15:37:45 hmmm... 15:38:12 another idea is to have both a tree and a set of registers. 15:38:22 So... struct node { void *data; struct node *leaf1; struct node *leaf2; }? 15:38:38 ah... binary tree? 15:38:46 Seems sensible. 15:38:50 hmmm... 15:38:56 less you can do with it though. 15:39:14 Well, the SKI calculus fits nicely into a binary tree. 15:39:20 If you curry. 15:39:20 ah, okay. 15:39:48 I suppose you could change it later. I think arbitrary child nodes would be fun. 15:40:11 Well, you could possibly simulate that. 15:40:16 -!- softmoon has joined. 15:40:25 haha.. just link them altogether 15:40:46 Also, I assume nodes would need the type of the data as well. 15:41:12 well... binary works. If you wanted something production quality, though, you'd definitely want to take advantage of the performance benefits of using actual arrays. 15:41:22 yeah I suppose so. 15:41:59 oh... and they'd have optional names too 15:42:07 or do you want to do that? 15:42:17 names work better with arbitrary child nodes. 15:42:24 Mad idea: strip node size by making one of the child nodes NULL and the other a pointer to the data. 15:42:27 or at least make more sense. 15:42:29 For leaves. 15:42:47 -nod- that works. 15:42:57 linked list would use the other node as a next pointer. 15:43:48 .....named nodes would be epic 15:44:05 linkedlist/data, linkedlist/next, linkedlist/prev 15:44:06 Named noodles would be epic 15:44:07 for doubly-linked 15:44:34 .return would be a node referencing the node of the calling code. :) 15:44:44 Do we want to have data in parent nodes? 15:44:51 I'd say so. 15:46:06 if you want to have homoiconicity 15:46:17 you'll need a way to represent VM code in the tree 15:46:35 and an instruction that runs VM code in the tree. 15:46:59 OK, soo... 15:47:13 Wait, we want TCness too. 15:47:21 So control flow will be needed. 15:47:34 yeah, something basic will do. 15:47:47 hmmm... there's uh.... 15:47:59 How about, say, "move to the first child of the current node if it's 0, else the second" 15:48:11 yeah I'd so like 15:48:15 And then have an exec instruction. 15:48:29 "branch to node references by first child, if non-null, else branch to node in second node, if non-null" 15:48:34 *referenced 15:49:08 So set the first child to if 0, the second child to else, then jump to it. 15:49:23 mhm 15:49:26 Although you'd probably want to segregate the tree into "code" and "data". 15:49:40 generally... that's why I thought arbitrary child size would be nice 15:49:48 * CakeProphet is taking ideas from his tree-based esoteric language for this 15:49:50 so like... 15:49:53 So move the selected code into the code branch. 15:49:55 a standard namespace for functions could be like 15:50:12 /f 15:50:16 /f/map 15:50:18 /f/reduce 15:50:26 would point to code in the tree 15:50:28 or something. 15:50:36 Well, with a binary tree you can still do that. 15:50:37 under the node "f" 15:50:45 but you only have two nodes. 15:50:52 Have /data, /code/source and /code/functions. 15:51:01 Or somesuch. 15:51:24 I still think having more than two nodes would benefit from named-node semantics. 15:51:47 hmmm... here's an idea 15:52:01 if you wanted like... an intermediate language 15:52:05 that did stuff like named nodes 15:52:09 Hmm, yeah. 15:52:13 and then a low-level... which was focused on being efficient 15:52:19 *is 15:52:30 So we have the low-level binary tree language, and a mid-level filesystemy one? 15:52:51 ....see 15:53:20 I don't think binary trees will be very efficient. I'm generally considered about efficiency (even with esoteric things), so I wouldn't even use binary trees at all... 15:53:25 *concerned 15:53:28 my typing is terrible right now. 15:53:33 Aww. 15:53:36 but... 15:53:41 if you don't care about efficiency 15:53:55 then yes, that's fine. 15:54:05 If we cared much about efficiency we wouldn't be doing trees, would we? 15:54:12 ha, I suppose 15:54:16 what I would do 15:54:20 is have the low-level interface tree-less 15:54:31 so you don't have to do tree-lookups all the time with static information 15:54:40 Since it's going to work with an ungodly amount of mallocing and referencing. 15:54:58 pools! 15:55:47 malloc a fixed amount of objects, and acquire/recycle them. 15:55:56 to limit malloc/free calls. 15:56:07 Yes, indeed. 15:56:40 if I were going with efficiency I'd have registers as well. 15:57:06 But I don't really see how you can easily implement variable-child trees, 15:57:13 magic. 15:57:15 ... 15:57:23 well... it depends. 15:57:32 I prefer the intermediate code idea. 15:57:57 (Also, given modern computer speeds it's not really going to be a noticeable slowdown) 15:58:08 psh 15:58:20 well 15:58:30 when Google isn't interested in your ground-breaking VM research 15:58:37 because the low-level representation is inefficient 15:58:39 then.... oh well. 15:58:41 :P 15:58:51 they can go make their own and conquer the world more. 15:59:02 !google recursion 15:59:03 http://google.com/search?q=recursion 16:00:21 ...hmmmmm 16:00:22 you know 16:00:29 Oldest joke ever. 16:00:31 Anyway. 16:00:33 instead of using pointers for everything... consider a union? 16:00:38 -!- hiato has changed nick to cows. 16:00:47 -!- cows has changed nick to fishes. 16:00:50 Making nodes enumerable seems worthwhile. 16:01:00 indeed 16:01:19 I think a 16-bit integer should be enough for sane addressing. 16:01:42 maybe use tree nodes as your reference semantics... but then for data 16:01:43 Make the first few bits say to what depth, and then the rest specify the path taken. 16:01:46 instead of referencing data 16:01:48 use a union 16:01:55 since they'll be a fixed number of types. 16:02:01 int, bool, float, double, etc 16:02:07 value types. 16:02:23 Remind me, what are unions? 16:02:40 unions represent a combination of multiple types 16:02:46 the size of a union is the size of the largest nested type 16:03:01 OK, so if you have a char and an int? 16:03:03 you can read/write to a union type with any of the nested types 16:03:15 Then does the char represent the first byte of the int? 16:03:33 yeah. 16:03:34 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:03:36 sort of. 16:03:38 like 16:03:40 Phantom_Hoover: that is undefined. you are not allowed to read from a different type than the one you last wrote to 16:03:41 That "yeah" isn't a "yeah" :P 16:03:43 if you read the union value as a char 16:03:45 it'll be the first byte 16:03:54 -!- augur has joined. 16:03:58 "First" as in "whatever my architecture decides to lay out first" 16:04:02 Not "first" in any consistent way. 16:04:06 Yes, I know. 16:04:14 And even that first is undefined, as unions can be as wonky as they want really. 16:04:19 I needed an example quickly. 16:04:28 generally they're fairly sane but portable code shouldn't rely on the layout of a union 16:04:30 ...is unions a bad idea? :P 16:04:36 -!- hiato has joined. 16:04:46 unions are perfectly OK so long as you use them properly. 16:04:56 unions are a good idea if you use them to reduce the memory requirements of an array of a struct, for example 16:05:00 -!- hiato has left (?). 16:05:03 (like what they're meant for) 16:05:32 Phantom_Hoover: union value_type { char character; int integer; bool boolean; float decimal;} 16:05:36 ; 16:05:58 it's like a struct 16:06:04 not really 16:06:05 but instead of setting the memory contents 16:06:06 apart from the syntax 16:06:09 side by side 16:06:13 all members take up the same place in memory 16:06:21 CakeProphet: not necessarily but normally yes 16:06:32 -!- fishes has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:06:41 in fact i don't know of a single implementation that doens't so it's safe to assume so 16:07:00 Implementing a union as a struct is probably valid 16:07:13 Wait, so is that how the data in the node is represented? 16:07:14 #define union struct 16:07:18 and nobody is any the wiser! 16:07:58 Phantom_Hoover: a union is a new kind of type. So you'd have variables of type union value_type 16:08:04 and then 16:08:09 union value_type x; 16:08:11 x.character 16:08:18 would access the union as a character... essentially. 16:08:20 Ah, right. 16:08:30 OK, so how does the language use this? 16:08:46 i.e. how does it decide which type it wants? 16:08:52 you specify 16:08:54 basically using a union is a way to represent all the possible value types you might want to deal with without having to use pointers. 16:09:01 and yes. 16:09:12 you choose which field to use 16:09:14 No, I mean the tree language. 16:09:19 oh... uh. 16:09:32 hmmm, dunno. But I assume you'd only want value types as nodes 16:09:32 Phantom_Hoover: if you want the "char" you say x.character, if you want the "float" you say x.decimal (even thouugh it's binary not decimal... but that's what you called the field) 16:09:42 Yes, I got that. 16:09:49 because the tree could be used to describe any kind of data structure. 16:09:55 er... reference type structure 16:09:56 that is. 16:11:30 I guess the language could just set nodes 16:11:43 Wait, why bother making the VM deal with types? 16:11:44 the union just gives you weakly typed values. 16:12:02 Phantom_Hoover: it doesn't need to... but you'll want unions for sure then 16:12:02 Just make each node hold, say, 4 bytes and make the low-level code deal with it. 16:12:25 hmmm... that's a possibility. That's essentially what unions do in most cases anyways. 16:12:28 Basically as assembly does. 16:12:58 hmmm... okay yeah that works. 16:13:19 just use C's weak typing semantics 16:13:25 to implement weak typing. :P 16:14:39 Yep. 16:14:47 will you want node-references? 16:14:53 Yes. 16:15:09 And as I mentioned above they can be implemented fairly elegantly. 16:15:13 simple enough to do, as long as the data type is as large as your architectures address range. 16:16:17 a possible way to do variable length child lists btw is to make the sizing explicit somewhere 16:16:40 the alternative is a linked list. 16:16:53 which works for traversal... but not direct indexing. 16:18:51 hmmm... I wonder if there's a hash algorithm you could use 16:18:55 -!- Oranjer has joined. 16:19:07 to give you O(1) node lookup when referenced by name 16:19:16 regardless of absolute or relative naming within the tree structure. 16:19:23 I think you can address at least 27 levels of a binary tree with a 4-byte address. 16:19:38 well... 16:19:45 you could just use hardware-level pointers 16:19:49 and pass those around. 16:19:52 problem solved, right? 16:20:04 And since that represents over 200 million nodes, it seems sufficient. 16:20:20 And implementation-level pointers seem inelegant. 16:20:58 Consider a 32-bit address, the first 5 bits of which specify the depth to go to. 16:21:14 Then the next 27 bits specify the directions along the nodes needed. 16:21:30 ...why do that when you can just use pointers? What would be the loss? 16:21:31 -!- softmoon has left (?). 16:22:02 Because a parent and child node could have totally different addresses. 16:23:26 one solution for variable-children is to have a global hash table 16:23:30 and to use /only/ named semantics. 16:23:38 which is essentially a superset of enumeration 16:23:41 in essence. 16:24:15 We can unite these schemes, then. 16:24:20 I think. 16:24:25 so then the trees don't actually hold the data or pointers to the data... but instead contain hash information 16:24:41 If the tree-based address is used as the hash key. 16:24:52 yes, if you can ensure no collisions. 16:24:57 Hmm... 16:25:24 The order of evaluation is going to have to be carefully chosen. 16:25:45 Since if you go straight down, you've only got 27 levels. 16:26:08 well... just figure out what information uniquely identifies each node. 16:26:12 for named nodes 16:26:28 it would be a) the name of the node b) the hash value of its parent 16:26:37 Actual names seem decadent for the low-level code. 16:26:48 possibly. 16:27:09 So what if we use my address scheme to specify keys on a hash table? 16:27:31 The system will run out of memory long before it runs out of addresses. 16:27:37 hmmm... 16:27:42 maybe with some revisions 16:27:47 but yeah 16:27:48 Probably. 16:28:08 Particularly since my address scheme has multiple addresses for half the nodes. 16:28:31 Indeed, there are 2^27 ways of addressing the root node. 16:28:52 How about we make the root node and its immediate children register-like? 16:29:06 hmmm... hex? 16:29:14 could a hex representation help with hashing? 16:29:54 ...How? 16:30:01 ...no clue, just brainstorming. 16:30:18 I can't see how it would possibly help. 16:30:26 guess not. 16:30:32 Anyway, how is code represented in the tree? 16:30:49 that depends on the code. 16:31:05 Like I said, representing it as directly linear won't work. 16:31:06 what kind of code we have determines how it would be represented. 16:31:16 if its function 16:31:29 you could have functions as nodes with their arguments as children. 16:31:44 the function-nodes data would be a hash reference to the functions implementing code. 16:31:52 * Phantom_Hoover looks at some Lazy K programs 16:32:41 so then 16:32:51 I'm afraid I shall go mad if I try to work out the depth in them. 16:33:00 However, 2 should 16:33:04 argument nodes could either be (a) data, in the case of leaves or b) unevaluated functions, in the case of branches) 16:33:08 Ignore that. 16:33:13 ...which would support lazy evaluation I think. 16:33:21 27 levels should be enough for a lot of LK programs. 16:34:06 lazy evaluation would essentially be manipulating unevaluated program expressions as values. 16:34:19 I think there should be an eagerly-evaluated language at the base of the system, though. 16:34:23 -!- lament has joined. 16:34:28 Phantom_Hoover: yep. 16:34:42 Also, mmapping parts of the tree is nice. 16:34:52 As is moving whole branches. 16:34:55 dunno how mmapping works. 16:35:13 It's probably incorrect terminology in this case. 16:35:31 I mean making two nodes point to the same data. 16:35:35 hmm... the hash idea would be problematic with a stateful tree, actually. 16:35:46 if the key is dependent on location. 16:36:10 then movement of a branch would invalidate all hash-based references. 16:36:39 Can't you make two keys point to the same object? 16:37:03 not really. 16:37:09 unless you have an array of references 16:37:17 as your table. 16:37:24 then the references can be the same. 16:37:31 The hash table contains the machine pointers to the nodes. 16:37:56 Two mmapped bits of tree have the same pointers for different keys. 16:39:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:39:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:40:47 OK, so now the language. 16:42:16 I think for the low-level one that the programmer should have to specify the node structure. 16:42:53 -!- lament has changed nick to _lament. 16:43:42 Aha, lament is growing untrustworthy! 16:44:11 Phantom_Hoover: what kind of semantics will be involved in specifying node structure? 16:44:41 I don't know. 16:44:46 also... when attempting to evaluate data as code... you'll likely want some kind of quote system, like Lisp. 16:45:05 Well, not really. 16:45:14 More like db in assembly. 16:45:40 Also, evaluation order needs to be considered. 16:46:13 hmmm... this is where enumeration will come in handy 16:46:15 you can do left-right 16:46:22 breadth first 16:46:31 Yes, I thought that. 16:46:34 if your nodes are ordered. 16:46:55 And they'll have to be ordered for the addressing scheme to work. 16:47:05 Indeed, for *anything* to work. 16:47:08 so I'd say use arrays for node relationships... the hash table would be for naming. 16:47:44 Shouldn't naming be a high-level construct. 16:47:49 Aww, I have to go. 16:47:53 I'll be back laer. 16:47:53 not necessarily. 16:47:56 alrighty. 16:47:58 s/laer/later/ 16:48:14 see ya. 16:48:46 an additional semantic that I liked was the inclusion of name-only nodes. 16:48:52 by prefixing the name with a . 16:49:43 so for example... a language that wanted to implement functions 16:49:50 could add a .return node to function nodes 16:50:33 .return would contain a reference to the calling code 16:51:25 so a lazy language could implement functions by a) making a copy of the function node, to represent a lazily-evaluating code object b) set the copy's .return node to reference calling code's node. 16:52:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:55:21 so the inclusion of a naming scheme that's independent of the enumeration semantics 16:55:25 would require low-level representation. 16:55:48 one of the points of a VM is to be more semantically abstract than machine level code 16:58:25 gtg cya 16:58:27 -!- DH____ has left (?). 17:04:14 * uorygl ponders an ad-hoc addressing scheme. 17:05:02 Suppose that we have a network containing a whole bunch of routers. One of these routers is connected to five other routers; these other routers give their addresses as 00000111, 01011101, 10010111, 10011010, and 10101010. 17:05:51 What should our router give its own address as to each of the other five routers in order to best express its routing ability? 17:06:30 "sup" 17:06:31 ... 17:06:47 also, I have no clue. 17:07:24 I'd need to see how those other addresses were produced. 17:07:48 That information is simply not available. 17:08:39 ...that's quite complicated then. 17:09:13 I think you'd need two sets of data 17:09:15 like some kind of mask. 17:09:41 But routing is always done to the router with the largest shared prefix. Like, all packets with a destination address beginning with 01 go to 01011101, because that's the only neighbor router that also begins with 01. 17:10:02 ah okay... so it's left-to-right 17:10:25 so..... 17:10:26 So the goal is to make sure a packet never gets stuck. 17:11:51 01000000 || (01011101 & 11000000) 17:12:01 Let's call the neighboring routers A, B, C, D and E. 00 packets go to A, 01 packets go to B, 1000 packets go to C and D, 10010 packets go to C, 10011 packets go to D, 101 packets go to E, and 11 packets go to C through E. 17:12:23 hmmm... okay. 17:12:38 so I think you'd have a depth to addresses 17:12:43 which is the number of bits they check. 17:12:47 from left to right 17:13:00 and then produce a mask from that depth 17:13:09 (01011101 & 11000000) 17:13:26 the right-hand byte is the mask byte for a depth-2 lookup 17:13:50 it basically just clears out all the extraneous bits for the purpose of determining which router we should route to. 17:14:09 that bitwise will give us 01000000 17:14:18 and so looking for 01 17:14:24 is the same as looking for 01000000 17:14:36 which will just be & I think 17:14:41 ...er. 17:14:43 maybe not. 17:15:28 that would just be == :P 17:16:04 so you'd have 10000000 11000000 11100000 11110000... 17:16:20 for different depth sizes 17:16:24 ....is this making any sense? 17:19:10 uorygl: maybe... bitwise AND? 17:19:28 the address could be the bitwise AND of all the routers it routes to. 17:19:45 since the semantics for routing are left-to-right, it would cover any overlaps. 17:21:16 so if something wants to ask "does router C with address 00101010 map to router B with address 00100010 " 17:23:16 you would essentially start at the left 17:23:36 and find a bit in C that's on at the same place as in B 17:23:57 if there is one... chop it out of the search bit 17:24:09 and pass it along 17:25:21 so the first 1 to be found going left-to-right that those two bit patterns have in common is 0010 17:25:51 so you'd take 00100000 17:25:54 negate it 17:26:01 and with address B 17:26:12 and that would give you 00000010 17:26:25 which is the query we want to pass along to all of the routers routed by C 17:26:37 C will then ask "hey do you guys route to 00000010?" 17:26:43 and they'll perform the same procedure. 17:27:05 until you get 00000000 17:27:23 which I guess is like "localhost" 17:31:51 in any case it would be a lot of bitwise hackery 17:41:16 hmmm... for a tree-hash algorithm 17:41:21 if it's a binary tree 17:41:30 then you can just have the bits reflect which branch you're talking about 17:41:51 you start at root... the first bit tells you which branch you go to 17:42:02 second tells you the second branch to goto, etc. 17:43:01 that would give you a depth of 32. 17:43:09 for a 32-bit address. 17:43:35 you could actually perform movement within the tree with bitwise operations only. 17:43:42 at least in the low-level implementation. 17:44:57 so the lower-level language would have instructions for setting/operating a register that controls current tree location. 17:47:40 well no, the addressing would be a little more complicated than that 17:47:43 but that's the basic idea. 18:06:34 CakeProphet: if a router's address is the bitwise AND of the routers it routes to, a single zero will spread throughout the entire network. 18:09:02 I meant OR actually. 18:10:35 Then a single 255 will spread throughout the entire network. :) 18:11:13 ...that's why there needs to be a mask somewhere. 18:11:16 hm anyone remember what happens in a case statement if you don't have a default: and the value turns out to be not one of the listed ones? 18:11:32 Right. I'm afraid I don't understand you fully, then. 18:11:35 it seems gcc generates different code for not having a default: vs. having "default: break;" 18:11:42 that makes no sense to me 18:12:33 don't know. 18:14:38 it should make no diff according the C99... 18:14:39 huh 18:15:39 (§6.8.4.2, paragraph 5) 18:16:15 uorygl: hmmm... the address needs to be something that can be bitwised with information given elsewhere to determine information about the network point. 18:16:47 what could fill in the blanks there for "information given elsewhere" and "something that can be bitwised" 18:35:35 fizzie, I just calculated what a 360° degree panorama from my camera mounted vertically at max zoom (200 mm in 35 mm equiv.) would give. With decent overlap: 52 images. This is 728 MB of RAW image data from my camera. And the final image would be at about 287.6 megapixles (this is based on overlap being gone, so 36 images instead of 52) 18:36:30 fizzie, do you think you could lend me that super system at your university for the HDR stitching? I would mail you the 16 bit tiffs ;P 18:36:59 (with HDR it would be even more raw data than "just" 728 MB of course!) 18:38:49 fizzie, at least zoom it is a much more manageable 11 images 18:38:53 for one rotation 18:39:54 hm fizzie seems away but isn't marked /away 18:40:38 I'm away a majority of the time but I'm rarely marked as such. 18:40:41 I think. 18:41:19 impractical for others 18:48:15 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 18:49:41 GRACENOTES IS SILLY 18:51:26 * Gracenotes creates several screenfuls worth of dadaist user page 19:13:52 CakeProphet, why? 19:14:23 ... 19:14:31 :) 19:44:41 AnMaster: I have this thing that auto-marks me away when xlock activates, but it seems to be broken at the moment. I can never remember to actually do /away, except when leaving work. 19:45:03 (I was picking up the cat from its temporary place.) 19:52:33 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:32:25 fizzie, anyway, yay I managed to make a reliable rotation function 20:32:27 that took a while 20:32:58 since it likes to start at 0xffff instead of 0x0 20:33:02 for some weird reason 20:33:17 so I had to handle overflow when rotating 20:33:54 but now it can move reliably in multiples of (360/111.66666) degrees! 20:34:05 (yeah weird number, but I blame crappy gears) 20:35:26 Speaking of Lego, I guess you might've seen this one before, but it's pretty nifty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX09WnGU6ZY 20:37:34 * AnMaster wgets 20:37:35 err 20:37:38 youtube-dls 20:37:51 I don't think I seen it before 20:38:26 It's a custom-built thing, not a mindstorms thing. But still. 20:39:23 iirc "ultimate builders set" lego mindstorms ad-on set had some plotter thing 20:39:27 think I built it even 20:39:33 low precision though 20:40:19 fizzie, it used pneumatics for the pen so fairly slow speed. I mean, much slower than that video 20:40:29 fizzie, also yeah the cups driver was a nice touch 20:40:41 the lego one had no such bit 20:40:46 just RCX-controlled 20:40:52 The comments refer to http://bricker.ru/images/sets/1092_brickset.jpg 20:42:15 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:42:31 fizzie, also that printer head causes some serious swaying of the whole thing 20:42:35 would reduce precision 20:43:12 fizzie, ah, hm http://www.peeron.com/inv/sets/1092-1 20:43:18 yeah that explains the old style motor 20:43:37 "FAQ: Just a remake of the 1092a? No, I'd never seen the 1092a until now. However some of the parts came from a 8094 kit amongst others many years ago. It is made to my own design, but I acknolwedge influences and the great work of the official lego designers !" 20:43:39 (From the poster.) 20:44:52 fizzie, I do get the point of those mini figures at the control panels 20:44:57 but the horse? 20:44:58 huh 20:45:05 same goes for the palm tree 20:45:37 Yes, I don't know what's up with that. 20:45:43 The poster seems to have a thing about horses. 20:45:48 fizzie, also, I can only spot one motor 20:45:54 fizzie, I can't find the second one 20:45:58 and you would need at least two 20:46:04 I haven't looked at it so closely. 20:46:20 Finally I got ngIRCd to compile and run. It works now. (You can't currently connect to it from the internet; the router is not set yet and it is only in testing mode) 20:46:33 and it can't be a micro motor, they are way slower, than the speed of the pen, plus rather weak (so gearing them that much is not feasible 20:47:03 ah found the other one 20:47:04 right 20:47:12 How much memory and CPU time will an IRC server software take up if I am also using the computer for a lot of other things too? 20:47:30 That depends a lot on how large a network it is. 20:47:41 Just one node 20:47:49 (so far) 20:47:49 Probably not a lot, then. 20:48:15 fizzie, also I want to see the sensor setup 20:48:23 doesn't seem to be standard lego sensors 20:48:26 I had to completely reinstall Cygwin for it to work 20:48:36 because there is no way it could keep position that well without good sensors 20:48:43 lego gears have way too much slippage 20:48:48 AnMaster: "FAQ: Does this use mindstorms? Nope, wiring demo board + homemade analog electronics and sensors." 20:49:10 AnMaster: "FAQ: Sensor info: Horizontal positioning using homemade shaft encoder (black/white rotating lego squares you see in the vid) with a SY-CR102 photo reflector from Maplins, (only £0.89 or $1.30)." 20:49:19 AnMaster: "... This is into a sampled analog input as I couldn't get full enough saturation to trigger the ext interrupt pins. There are also push buttons built into lego bricks for left and right end stop detection." 20:50:01 nice 20:50:09 What exactlly is it you are making with the lego now? 20:50:12 And "FAQ: Open source, schematics etc? Yes, I'll try to get around to this soon." 20:50:29 zzo38, me? an automated panorama taker 20:50:38 Me? Nothing. 20:50:39 it uses mindstorms (RCX, not the new NXT, don't have that) 20:50:50 OK 20:50:57 fizzie, "FAQ: Wrote your own driver? Yes, how sad is that!!" 20:50:59 wonderful :) 20:51:25 Did you know, there is a Forth for Lego systems 20:51:34 zzo38, I know about pbForth yes 20:51:42 but I'm using BrickOS and C here 20:52:03 C would probably be faster anyways 20:52:12 But Forth is almost as fast as C 20:52:15 zzo38, well, I'm doing rather embedded C... 20:52:36 Still, C is generally faster 20:52:38 zzo38, an example is: http://sprunge.us/QXMB 20:52:45 fizzie, you might want to see that too 20:52:49 nice busy loop on CPU :) 20:53:20 because I'm not using brickOS as such, I'm using a patched version called bibo, since it fixes lots of bugs and upstream brickOS development is dead 20:53:43 however bibo dropped the preemptive multitasking in favour of cooperative multitasking 20:54:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:54:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 20:54:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:54:26 with quite good reasons 20:54:34 -!- ws has joined. 20:54:40 the interrupts caused quite a bit of overhead 20:54:45 ais523, hi 20:55:14 Now I can just use "sprunge QXMB", sprunge pastebin really is very better than the other one, I think 20:55:43 zzo38, what? did you add an alias in your browser or such? 20:55:50 No, command-line 20:56:04 zzo38, sprunge for me pastes to it, not views paste on it... 20:56:15 I type "sprunge QXMB" at the command-line and it put output to stdout 20:56:20 I see 20:56:25 zzo38, and how do you paste to it? 20:56:33 For me, I wrote my own script. "sprunge" without a argument pastes to it, with a argument views it 20:56:42 zzo38, and to paste a file to it? 20:56:51 Just type "sprunge < file.txt" 20:56:58 hi AnMaster 20:57:32 It is written using NT command script, but a similar way could be done in UNIX 20:57:57 zzo38, whole current source is http://sprunge.us/ffMD 20:58:30 ais523, I think you would be interested in it, but since you filter urls... and 156 lines is a bit too long for IRC directly :P 20:58:59 zzo38, sure, I use a sprunge() { curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us; } simply 20:59:05 then I can redirect input to it 20:59:07 like: 20:59:10 sprunge < panobot.c 20:59:16 or: 20:59:20 foo | sprunge 20:59:37 zzo38, I don't need a viewing script for it 20:59:41 but sure, would be trivial 20:59:58 just: 21:00:01 curl http://sprunge.us/ffMD 21:00:15 so yeah making the shell function do that would be trivial 21:00:22 -!- alise has joined. 21:00:25 (I don't even have it as a script, just a shell function) 21:00:27 alise, hi! 21:00:51 Hello. 21:01:25 building wise the only thing that remains on my panoramic head is the shutter trigger 21:01:39 I wonder how feasible it would be to trigger it electronically using the remote shutter thingy 21:01:45 I don't think I have the required stuff 21:01:55 to build a controlling circuit 21:02:14 and I don't know the wiring 21:02:18 it has 3 pins 21:02:39 so mechanical trigger it is 21:03:36 the question remains: how 21:04:30 and I think the light sensor needs some adjustment to work well 21:04:31 It is criminal that these weekends are so short. 21:05:13 00:55:34 Wow, Eliezer Yudkowsky is very odd. 21:05:14 00:56:59 Apparently not signing your children up for cryonics makes you a bad person. 21:05:14 If you support cryonics this is perfectly reasonable: you are basically sentencing them to death -- like Logan's Run except you set the date at 80-odd. 21:05:26 00:59:27 OTOH, my philosophy makes cryonics pointless, so... 21:05:26 "My Philosophy" is almost as irritating a phrase as "My GIRLFRIEND". 21:05:44 why the allcaps? 21:05:56 Because that's how "my girlfriend" is pronounced in my internal vocalising system. 21:06:00 ah 21:06:00 01:30:02 lament: Doesn't cryonics work by freezing you after you die? 21:06:00 That's supposing ~(cryonics works) to prove ~(cryonics works). 21:06:10 alise, aren't you going to move abroad? 21:06:26 AnMaster: don't encourage her... 21:06:29 Anyway even if I didn't accept cryonics I do not believe that any definition of death other than information-theoretic death is acceptable. 21:06:36 ais523, ? 21:06:41 It used to be "when your heart stopped". 21:06:47 ais523: Don't encourage me to what, and why? 21:07:04 hmm, I'm not sure actually 21:07:10 XD 21:07:15 there was a pronoun discussion in another channel, so I was more hoping reaction to that 21:07:37 ais523: It's a good thing you didn't mean anything because almost any meaning I can assign to that line offends me :) 21:07:53 heh 21:08:04 (let (how 'penumatic)) 21:08:08 okay that works 21:08:12 modulo spelling 21:08:22 suboptimal but works 21:08:45 ais523: I don't suppose you have any eso solutions to my problem? 21:09:13 to which problem? the one that we mostly only talk about in private? no 21:09:32 I did invent a new esolang in my head a few nights ago, though 21:09:39 no name yet, no real fixed syntax, just semantics 21:09:43 I has liek a private network of informational dissemination 21:09:53 Actually this ircd really needs to support /query a,b,c. 21:09:53 ais523: How does it work? 21:10:01 It'd be very useful for ad-hoc privacy. 21:10:10 What is /query a,b,c 21:10:13 basically, there are a finite number of variables, chosen by the person writing the program 21:10:17 each is a rational number 21:10:25 zzo38: query/privmsg with more than two people 21:10:27 zzo38: you can do "PRIVMSG a,b,c :poop" in the IRC RFC protocols 21:10:29 but Freenode blocks it 21:10:32 to send a message to a, b, and c 21:10:39 ais523: say, does the message indicate the other recipients? 21:10:43 each variable stores an unbounded rational number, and is initialised to 1 21:10:44 it should do, so that it operates as an ad-hoc channel 21:10:49 alise: I think so, probably at the start of the line 21:10:58 ais523: How? 21:11:01 That's just the hostname. 21:11:15 as in, :hostname.whatever PRIVMSG a,b,c :poop 21:11:17 is what I'd expect 21:11:27 ah 21:11:37 might be rather long though 21:11:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:11:54 the program is full of statements like a = b + c and f = g / h 21:11:57 ? 21:12:07 basically, assigning the result of an arithmetic operation to a variable 21:12:08 ais523: ok, so currently that just sounds like rational arithmetic. 21:12:10 OK 21:12:15 ais523: although really -- don't you want a*b and ^-1? 21:12:21 no I don't 21:12:26 ais523: whysoever not? 21:12:40 well, + - * / are what exist 21:12:45 02:17:15 And Ruby is implemented in C? [...] 02:17:35 THEN IT'S NOT TC. 21:12:51 I'm not sure yet if you're allowed to use constants rather than variables 21:12:55 no, it's just that MRI isn't actually a Ruby implementation 21:13:04 ais523: you don't need full - and /... 21:13:07 just infix - and ^-1 21:13:08 now, the eso part: the program runs statements at random 21:13:17 ais523: TARPIT IT GRRRR 21:13:24 as in, each time it runs a statement, it picks a random statement and runs it 21:13:30 the program terminates if it tries to do a division by 0 21:13:35 question: is this TC? 21:13:47 it's not obvious either way, I've been thinking about it for a while 21:13:50 I have made a esolang where dividing by zero is the only form of flow control 21:14:13 (and it's possible that removing + and * and arbitrary / would change the computational class; the random execution prevents you "lumping" statements easily) 21:14:21 ais523, can it do deterministic computation at all? 21:14:28 ais523: I don't know if it is TC? 21:14:36 Perhaps post it on the wiki, and then we can see 21:14:43 AnMaster: I think so, if you use enough variables; but I'm not sure if it can do /useful/ deterministic computation 21:14:52 I need to work out syntax and a name before I post it on the wiki... 21:14:58 ais523, how do you mean with enough variables? 21:15:18 AnMaster: well, suppose you want to calculate a + b + c + d 21:15:21 ais523, well apart from the degenerate case of only one expression 21:15:29 ais523, ah okay, order is irrelevant there 21:15:34 if you use temp variables, as in e = a + b; f = e + c; g + c + d 21:15:55 ais523, only two variables and one operator per assignment? 21:16:01 then if it's the only thing you ever calculate and all the variables are >= 1, then you know that g is <= the actual answer 21:16:02 at all times 21:16:05 AnMaster: that's it 21:16:06 02:37:21 (set-weight neuron output (+ (car range) (random (coerce (- (car range) (cdr range)) 'double-float))))) 21:16:11 set-weight --> setf (weight neuron) 21:16:16 lern2lithp 21:16:29 how do you know set-weight isn't a macro that does that? 21:16:29 ais523: If it's TC, then randomness shouldn't matter. 21:16:36 ais523: Also, no, you define setf macros. 21:16:39 They can do anything. 21:16:48 Anything that sets should be (setf (some-relevant-accessor x) ...). 21:16:56 It's Lisp good-practice. 21:17:01 alise: it's obviously nondeterministic, but as you say, I think it's entirely possible that you can arrange things so the randomness is irrelevant 21:17:33 ais523: well, no, because you could just by chance get 1,2,3,... out of a randomness generator every time 21:17:35 There is the esolang where it is not TC, but there is a command that makes it TC 21:17:42 Or at least that is what it says. 21:17:43 so if it's actually tc it has to work with every "random" result 21:17:47 thus the randomness is irrelevant 21:17:49 zzo38: oerjan's thing yeah? 21:17:52 HQ9+ extension 21:17:58 alise: Yes, I mean that. 21:18:05 ais523, does it remove computed statements? 21:18:19 AnMaster: no 21:18:24 AnMaster: ? 21:18:25 okay 21:18:29 alise: yep, agreed 21:18:29 ais523: I am pretty sure your thing doesn't have loops of any sort. 21:18:35 However, it is TC if there is a program that can be written and work in all 256 ways, I suppose. Otherwise it is not TC but there is a command to make it TC? 21:18:39 alise: statements can run more than once 21:18:49 each time it picks a random statement, regardless of whether it's run before or not 21:18:59 so from another point of view, it has loops everywhere 21:19:14 ais523: How about if an operation a = b OP c would cause a division by zero, we jump to a by somehow interpreting it as a line number. 21:19:22 (Two-dimensional line numbers? (a,b) PRINT ...) 21:19:30 alise: I don't understand 21:19:32 *a/b I gues 21:19:33 ais523, how would you make it divide by zero only when things are done? 21:19:33 *guess 21:19:38 ais523: well 21:19:39 there is a jump somewhere randomly all the time 21:19:46 a = b / 0 21:19:48 say a is 1/2 21:19:51 then it'd jump to 1/2 21:19:54 whatever that means 21:19:54 alise: only set the variable in the denominator to 0 when you detect that things are done 21:19:58 ais523, I could see how if you had some logical operator, like == or such 21:19:59 alise: I don't get the notion of "Jump" here 21:20:07 ais523: "execute 1/2 as next line, not random()" 21:20:11 AnMaster: you can compare numbers with a 0/non-0 result using - 21:20:14 figure out twod line numbers yourself :P 21:20:16 alise: that would defeat the whole point of the language 21:20:22 maybe floor(1 / 2) 21:20:22 ais523, hm true 21:20:28 *floor(1/2) 21:20:32 executing random() is clearly enough for repetition of some sort 21:21:20 ais523, it can be TC under the condition of a rng that never repeats itself and in enough _finite_ time will cover all states several times 21:21:22 maybe 21:21:57 s/repeats/repeats in loops/ 21:22:01 that solves the issue alise is pointing at I think 21:22:01 AnMaster: it wouldn't be an RNG otherwise 21:22:08 we're assuming a mathematically perfect RNG 21:22:18 although /dev/urandom would probably be good enough 21:22:19 ais523: a mathematically perfect RNG would repeat itself, I think... 21:22:23 ais523: or at least could 21:22:25 ais523, well then 1,2,3,1,2,3,... is not an issue? 21:22:27 alise: yes, but not forever 21:22:33 ais523: or are we talking 0 to /infinity/ RNG? 21:22:35 well, with probability 1 21:22:42 which I am not even sure makes sense 21:22:46 can you select a completely random natural? 21:22:46 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:22:50 alise: 0 to the number of statements in the program 21:22:54 as in, you run a random statement each time 21:22:57 that isn't 0 to infinity 21:22:57 such that you're distributed fairly over the naturals?! 21:22:58 -!- tombom has joined. 21:23:04 but you call the RNG an infinite number of times 21:23:07 or until the program terminates 21:23:11 to get the next statement each tiem 21:23:12 *time 21:23:41 Perhaps zero to infinity RNG is sensible if you have to use p-adic numbers? 21:24:11 But even then, it isn't perfect, because ....11111 can just as well represent negative one 21:24:15 Which is less than zero 21:24:38 zzo38, what? 21:25:32 And .....01010101010101 can represent negative one third 21:25:51 (Try multiplying by three and adding one and you will see that the answer is zero) 21:25:57 zzo38, why would we need negative numbers here at all 21:26:11 In case you subtract, I suppose? 21:26:25 zzo38, not needed for statement selection? 21:27:22 I suppose so. 21:27:50 But dividing by zero is the form of flow control is something I have already invented: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Divzeros 21:32:37 In PHIRC, I can easily test my IRC server just with the command "/C" by itself, without any parameters. "/C" by itself assumes "/C localhost 194" automatically, do you like this feature? Does any other IRC clients have that feature? 21:37:08 I already found out how to disable all channels other than "+" at the start, and to change the 005 message to match. There is no configuration setting for that so I had to modify the source-codes 21:38:09 Can SUMMON be enabled? 21:39:15 No, it would be then too easy to SUMMON CTHULHU by accident. 21:40:31 I don't care about that 21:40:34 Can USERS be enabled? 21:41:16 In ngIRCd it seems SUMMON is always disabled, although it does understand that command 21:41:21 But it cannot be enabled 21:44:40 Is there a way to make the HELP command work better? So that you can receive a help message, even before PASS/USER/NICK 21:47:46 I want to make it so that some nicknames can't be used unless the correct PASS and USER commands are given for that nickname 21:49:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:51:06 Now I just should implement SIRCL format for channel log and then it should be working 21:51:11 And then I can set the router 22:01:04 abc 22:07:12 The pik of the hq is absent. 22:09:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:09:10 CakeProphet, back. 22:09:33 as prophesied 22:12:46 It occurs to me that most esolang interpreters are really VMS. 22:12:53 s/VMS/VMs/ 22:13:19 Since they tend to have nothing to do with the underlying system. 22:13:40 -!- relet has joined. 22:14:50 but not HQ9+. the + character clearly should increment the underlying system's accumulator. 22:15:12 otherwise it has simply not been implemented correctly. 22:15:31 this might of course pose a problem in systems that have no accumulator. 22:15:41 Unless the implementation is optimising and strips out unnecessary instructions. 22:16:01 OK, so the tree VM. 22:16:35 It occurred to me that my addressing scheme needs different instructions for equality, 22:17:26 Since 00000.* always refers to the root node, and so on. 22:17:44 So a PCMP instruction would probably be helpful. 22:19:25 oerjan: my Thutu implementation of HQ9+ uses its own emulated accumulator 22:19:38 because it's too abstracted to know if there's an underlying accumulator or not 22:20:08 well it's not HQ9+ 22:20:23 What is "the accumulator"? 22:20:31 In x86, for instance. 22:20:35 eax? 22:20:43 's fault if thutu is too removed from the underlying machine 22:21:45 * oerjan has no idea whether x86 has an accumulator. 22:26:59 eax is the accumulator 22:27:44 eaxcellent! 22:29:23 alise is here? 22:29:33 It is Friday, is it not? 22:29:43 And a most excellent Friday too, might I add, for no reason other than to give me a second line to write. 22:29:53 OK. Read the logs and comment on the tree-based VM idea. 22:30:02 Phantom_Hoover: there is no alise, it's just a talking weather balloon. or maybe a talking venus. 22:30:48 Weather balloon. 22:30:54 Phantom_Hoover: No; I demand distilled information! 22:30:59 (Or at least log links.) 22:31:07 Today's log. 22:31:24 The basic idea was to have a global tree in which code and data are stored. 22:31:38 ais523: oh btw you forgot to delete Talk:Joke languages 22:31:54 *Category talk:Joke languages 22:32:12 ok, thanks 22:32:29 not sure how I missed that one 22:32:37 Why delete that category? 22:32:47 I hereby register my disagreement. 22:32:51 also Category:Algorithmic information theory 22:33:04 Delete that one, yes. 22:33:06 alise, the talk page. 22:33:10 alise: um the talk page, which was spam 22:33:16 Ah. 22:33:26 Algorithmic information theory shouldn't be a category. 22:33:30 Only John Tromp uses it. 22:33:49 oh hm it actually has an article 22:33:56 oerjan: deleted and semisalted 22:34:08 alise, you have failed to read the proposition. 22:34:16 I am disappointed. 22:34:48 I'm merely supporting it even more strongly. 22:34:58 It's an alise 22:34:58 Anyway suck my Dijkstra. (I will henceforth use this insult forevermore.) 22:35:01 Also, I thought you might like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lambda_calculus#Proposed_criticism_of_lambda_calculus 22:35:04 alise: I've come to hate LambdaMOO 22:35:14 Why? 22:35:47 Well, not "hate", but I ask why people don't care about keeping the library organized, so newcomers could easily find things, and they said that newcomers could always just ask them 22:35:52 lol @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lambda_calculus#Proposed_criticism_of_lambda_calculus 22:36:01 His interests include astronomy, search engines, programming, computer graphics, ergonomics, electronic encyclopedias, and advanced wiki-formattting. He's the guy, in school, that corrected the answers in the back of the Physics textbook ("Don't ya hate people like that?"). 22:36:05 I really hope it's a joke. 22:36:08 Seems like more of a "Don't bother RTFM, just ask us" 22:36:09 but then, earlier: 22:36:10 Wikipedia user Wikid77 is an American computer scientist, world traveller, and wiki-inventor. 22:36:17 fucking pretentious fuckwit kid ARH 22:36:18 *ARGH 22:36:20 burn with fire 22:36:31 what is it with SUPER SMRT kids and being... like that 22:36:33 Don't read the TV Tropes Troper Tales pages for Mary Sue. 22:36:35 I'm not like that am I? 22:36:41 Wouldn't a computer scientist actually appreciate lambda calculus? 22:36:48 Or Genius Bruiser. 22:36:58 It's as bad as it sounds. 22:37:03 alise, I'm considered super-smart relative to the other computer students at my school, mostly 22:37:07 At least, I think 22:37:44 Compared to my fellow computing students I am Donald Knuth. 22:37:49 And I'm not all that good. 22:38:27 IRC user Elliott Hird is a British computer scientist, mathematician, philosopher and typographer. 22:38:33 *is a renowned British 22:40:03 05:05:56 (sorry for slow reply, had to clean my glasses due to small accident there) 22:40:06 We did not need that information. 22:40:19 05:10:47 fungot uses SOCK and a few other ones for example 22:40:19 Please don't tell us what you use. This has gone too far. 22:40:20 alise: all because r2q2 said yow to you? fizzie said earlier that a befunge program that solves: 2x2 4x 1 0 deewiant anmaster: i wouldn't. 22:40:25 Oh, look Wikid77 has been in the West US, the East US, the Northeast US, the Southeast US *and* the other US. 22:40:29 Wow! 22:40:39 The "Other" region of the US. 22:41:03 Non-continental US? 22:41:13 Erm, that doesn't technically describe Alaska, does it 22:41:14 Hawaii? 22:41:27 Non-contiguous? 22:41:28 The User:Wikid77 is a long-term user on English Wikipedia (editing since 2001) and German Wikipedia, who also edits Wikimedia Commons in 20 languages. He is an American computer scientist, mathematician, information scientist, and world traveller. 22:41:35 Information scientist and world traveller. 22:42:12 Originally intended as the "sum of all knowledge" (vision), wiki efforts continued as the "sum of all censorship" in late 2008, as suggestions were deleted, text was trimmed or simplified, with images or maps cut to reduce data. Many people quit in disgust during 2006-2008, unable to handle the negative chaos. 22:42:17 Incidentally, I joined in with the tree idea for the purpose of making a VM that could do functional programming on a low level. 22:42:19 ASHDFGHHK 22:42:23 He reminds me of Lumenos. 22:42:24 "This user lives in Texas." 22:42:26 oh I can stop reading now 22:42:28 Although not as insane. 22:42:38 Phantom_Hoover: real machines that do functional programming on a low level exist 22:42:40 Google "Reduceron" 22:42:47 http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Main_Page 22:42:53 A tribute to insanity. 22:43:09 Why do you have to spoil my fun? 22:43:21 alise, I'm thinking of making a gaming computer 22:43:30 Phantom_Hoover: wow, that wiki is like a cross-referenced masturbation video. 22:43:44 Sgeo: I can give you all the specs and it will cost super cheap and be most excellent. Also, I will give you humble service. 22:43:51 You didn't have to deal with him for about a month. 22:43:54 alise: is that a good thing? 22:43:59 I have no idea why I did it. 22:44:05 ais523: no. 22:44:15 On Intel's website: "How many programs will you run at once?" The max option: 4+ 22:44:18 Lumenism is a system for discovering and organizing information particularly on controversial topics. Here's how: 22:44:18 Debates are made more fruitful and civil by techniques or technology that allow quick, back-and-forth dialogue, while enforcing time/attention restraints using time-enforced dialogue (ted) and wikibrawl methods. 22:44:18 Clarifying terminology using neologisms. 22:44:18 Efficiently organizing and storing information to avoid repetition and enable newcomers to quickly and conveniently see if the answer to their question is in this information storage place. A wikiforum is particularly suitable to this goal, but a wikiforms' function can be simulated with with paper or voice, for people who don't own networked computers, for information that requires greater privacy, or for people who do not want to become a cripled philosoph 22:44:23 er (knowledge lover) like Lumenos. 22:44:23 I just kind of... fell into it. 22:44:25 Establishing the largest consensus groups possible. 22:44:27 Research how a lumeniki may be improved to maximize liberty by avoiding power being concentrated in the hands of administrators or the owners of the servers: 22:44:30 Allowing modularity so that anyone can easily extract part of the wiki and move it to a different host, sponsor, governor, or legal agreement. 22:44:33 Make LumenikiLu useful to readers by allowing them to customize how the content is filtered for them to see rather than administrators censoring what everyone sees. 22:44:36 Governance decision power delegated by the wiki software when consensus is not happening: A one-vote-per-person "democratic" system would require identification of people and have disadvantages in terms of privacy and convenience. An alternative would be a meritocratic system that would delegate power based on the amount of content contributed (which is recognized to be valuable). This would avoid cheating with sock puppets and some mistakes due to lack of e 22:44:41 xperience. The idea of software making the decisions (see technocracy) is to achieve real rule-by-law where laws are so perfected they can be carried out by computers/robots. You might think this would re 22:44:44 quire very wise and benevolent policy makers, well sort of, actually power checks are built into the (educational) system although any system may devolve into non-pareto or non-utilitarian, authoritarian hierarchies if not maintained by (the majority of) persons who are either benevolent and/or intelligent enough to maintain it. That is undoubtedly the Truthism. 22:44:44 "What kind of social networking do you want to do?" WTF? 22:44:49 -!- coppro has joined. 22:44:51 Yes, a huge flood. 22:44:53 But dammit, the world has to see. 22:44:55 He turned up at Wikiindex after an incident I don't want to explain, and he wikilawyered for *weeks*. 22:44:55 It goes on: http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Lumenism 22:44:59 Sgeo: See /msg. 22:45:20 alise: incidentally, an automatically enforced 3RR automatically makes wikis democratic, if everyone can be bothered to use all their reverts 22:45:26 He is the only person who ever uses it. 22:45:43 Although I have an account there, along with a couple of others from RationalWiki. 22:45:47 Phantom_Hoover: how /can/ you wikilawyer for weeks without everyone just ignoring you? 22:46:00 We were a little crazy. 22:46:49 http://www.wikiindex.org/WikiIndex_talk:Policies_and_Guidelines 22:47:48 That repeated "i" is irritating. 22:47:58 It is indeed. 22:48:42 Although the site's administration is even worse. 22:49:12 As best I can tell, most of the sane people went to another site, and only a few idiots remained. 22:57:31 I think I found a bug in ngIRCd 22:57:38 Report it 22:58:23 If you create a + type predefined channel, it will set server operators as channel operators anyways, even though that shouldn't be allowed. (The MODE command doesn't work for modeless channels anyways, though) 22:58:35 Usually there is no use for + type predefined channel 22:58:56 But now I want to add in a function to make it so predefined channels are the ones which are automatically logged 22:59:01 I can fix that bug 23:01:59 Probably nobody cares about that bug anyways, but I will fix it anyways. The only reason I need predefined channels is for two reasons: Topic messages and automatic logging (using SIRCL format). There should not be any operators, even server operators should not be allowed to change topics or anything else on + type channels. 23:02:26 -!- augur has joined. 23:02:58 CakeProphet, are you there? 23:05:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:09:58 Is anyone going to discuss the tree computer? 23:11:15 Explain it. 23:12:26 OK, like I said the only (or at least primary) data structure is a tree. 23:12:40 I'm not sure if we agreed, but I think it was binary. 23:12:59 Code and data are both stored on this. 23:13:39 There is a low-level language operating on this level. 23:14:04 Which is eagerly-evaluated, possibly by traversing the tree depth-first. 23:15:40 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:15:41 Each node contains a 4-byte value. 23:16:22 The addressing scheme I came up with was that the first 5 bits specified the depth, and the next 27 specified the path from the root node. 23:17:23 CakeProphet had the idea of making this faster by having a hash table of the pointers in physical memory corresponding to the address. 23:18:08 The addressing scheme I came up with was that the first 5 bits specified the depth, and the next 27 specified the path from the root node. 23:18:11 So, finite tree. 23:18:14 DFA, Q.E.D. 23:18:16 Yes. 23:18:27 DFA? 23:18:30 Google it. 23:18:46 My suggestion: 0 is /, 1 is a bit. 23:18:48 There's your path. 23:18:51 Dimensional Fund Advisors? Democracy For America? 23:18:56 11101111 is 111/1111 23:19:00 Phantom_Hoover: Sigh. 23:19:08 What? 23:19:25 Deterministic is the first word. 23:19:35 Deterministic Finite-state Automaton? 23:19:47 OK. 23:19:50 YOU WIN 23:20:18 Why is it so bad if it's not TC? 23:20:26 Er, I meant FSM. 23:20:31 Phantom_Hoover: It's boooooooring :P 23:20:39 It's honest. 23:21:05 Since it doesn't pretend to be TC while written in C, like everything else is. 23:22:02 -!- coppro has joined. 23:22:05 You confuse languages with implementations. 23:22:09 You should die because of this. 23:22:12 Yes, I know. 23:22:17 It's a terrible sin. 23:22:31 TC implementations are non-existent, so it's not that awful. 23:23:20 why is that always bad? Some languages effectively are their implementations, like Perl 23:23:21 (Perl 5, anyway) 23:23:45 OK, so why should it be TC> 23:24:15 TC languages are two-a-penny. 23:24:28 Wait, Perl doesn't have formal specs? 23:24:49 coppro: 23:24:55 Why is it so bad if it's not TC? 23:24:55 It's honest. 23:24:55 Since it doesn't pretend to be TC while written in C, like everything else is. 23:25:07 That's inaccurate, I give you. 23:25:09 this "TC isn't valid because [some facet of the universe] isn't TC" thinking is a disease 23:25:12 Sgeo: Sure it does. it's written in C 23:25:16 and must be stomped upon with great force at every opportunity 23:25:25 Also, the universe isn't TC. 23:25:36 You can't run forever, however hard you try. 23:25:50 And the universe is finite 23:26:04 It's a fantastically useful theoretical concept, but isn't real. 23:26:08 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:26:28 But that doesn't mean languages, as described, aren't theoretically, if not physically, TC 23:26:35 Phantom_Hoover: Graham's number isn't real! 23:26:38 I accept that. 23:26:39 Ultrafinitism forever!! 23:26:58 there's no proof that the Universe isn't TC 23:27:03 i isn't real! 23:27:33 What's wrong with saying that TC isn't real, but is useful in mathematics? 23:27:48 and in fact, there is evidence suggesting that the Universe is super-TC 23:28:01 coppro, wait what? 23:28:20 Sgeo: There are those who believe that quantum mechanics is not modelable by a Turing machine 23:28:23 Quantum. 23:28:24 I believe the universe to be finite, and I believe that -- 23:28:25 If the universe is super-TC, let's build a super-TC cpu! 23:28:28 How did I know you'd bring up QM? 23:28:47 I am pretty sure you could make a universe on a Turing machine that, to its inhabitants, behaved perfectly quantum. 23:28:48 OK, can we stop the philosophy? 23:28:52 Phantom_Hoover: No. 23:29:01 <3 philosophy 23:29:03 alise: With a PRNG, then? 23:29:10 coppro: We can't model quantum mechanics on a TM in this universe, perhaps. 23:29:18 coppro: But that doesn't mean the universe itself is running on super-TC hardware. 23:29:19 Or a nondeterministic TM? 23:29:23 alise: yes it does 23:29:36 either it can or cannot be modeled by a TM 23:29:38 Well, we can't even build a TM in this universe, so 23:29:49 a "nondeterministic TM" is not a TM at all 23:29:51 We *can* build a TM. 23:29:58 Just not a universal one. 23:30:05 Oh erm, >.> right 23:30:07 coppro: no 23:30:10 coppro: consider: 23:30:31 TM can run {universe that appears to be quantum}, but from inside {universe that appears to be quantum}, we cannot emulate that universe, only {another universe that appears to be quantum}. 23:30:47 alise: But that would violate the principle of UTM equivalence 23:31:08 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:31:12 I don't see any issue with proposing that the simulator somehow makes its random numbers "inaccessible" to us. 23:31:20 alise: nor do I 23:31:25 Why wouldn't "that universe" be emulable, except for memory constrains? 23:31:27 *constraints? 23:31:30 emulable isn't a word 23:31:31 TMs are not random, however 23:31:43 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:31:50 Emulable is a lovely word and should be real. 23:32:26 we have near-UTMs in this Universe (machines that would be UTMs if they had infinite space), that means they can emulate any TM. By definition, there cannot exist a TM that a UTM cannot emulate 23:32:32 Lumenos is practically a superhero but for eir one crippling kryptonite weakness to a deadly form of ikilumen known as termMites. 23:32:32 Noise pollution: Marl is the gosh of noise pollution. His one most loyal and faithful servant on Earth, Marlean, is actually Lumenos step sister. The antiChrist appointed Marlean to distract and frustrate any attempt by Lumenos or Klearance to think. However, marlikilumen has differing effects on Lumenos and Klearance. 23:32:32 Klearance becomes sedated, hypnotized, and usually will fall asleep or stare at a lumenator, lucidly dreaming of something he thinks he needs to do without having access to the brain functions which could solve any real problem when these actually exist. 23:32:33 Lumenos becomes distracted, agitated (more like freegan pissed off), and tends to flee from the deadly air vaprations. 23:32:36 http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Ikilumen_of_Lumenos'_mind what! 23:33:05 I had to *argue* with him. 23:33:16 It's open-edit, feel free to annoy him. 23:33:28 Hooooovie you came! *BIG hug* I did it right that time, hugh? I know how you like those little stars. You so smart. Do you know how to spell "hugh"? First editor who is sticking around a little while maybe? I think there might be a special place for the Hoovester in the Lumeniki tip jar. Lumenos 17:12, September 6, 2009 (UTC) 23:33:35 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:33:36 Hooooovie you came! *BIG hug* 23:33:43 `addquote Hooooovie you came! *BIG hug* 23:33:46 so if the Universe cannot be modeled by any TM (including, by definition, a UTM) inside it, it cannot be emulated by any TM at all. 23:33:57 "If you want me to stay, make me a sysop and bureaucrat." xD 23:34:02 Sometimes I think you no longer love me. I know that is just my low self esteem talking but, you know, it would be nice to hear you say it every now and then. Lumenos 08:37, November 13, 2009 (UTC) 23:34:04 No output. 23:34:06 Is this guy for real 23:34:12 It would appear. 23:34:20 -!- Oranjer has joined. 23:34:23 so therefore its computational complexity class must be super-TC, since it can in fact model a UTM, as evidenced by the existence of UTMs within it 23:34:25 alise, where's this? 23:34:29 Otherwise he shows a dedication for parody that is in itself weird. 23:34:36 UTMs can model UTMs 23:34:43 "(Prune. With a chainsaw)" --Phantom_Hoover 23:34:46 --http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Lumeniki&diff=69874&oldid=68851 23:34:52 Sgeo: http://lumeniki.referata.com/ 23:35:06 http://www.wikiindex.org/Lumeniki Look at that, it's big again. 23:35:18 This guy is fucking insane 23:35:56 Where's the You came bit? 23:36:21 Sgeo: exactly 23:36:21 http://www.wikiindex.org/index.php?title=Lumeniki&oldid=68851 He seems to think that he invented MediaWiki's XML export feature. 23:36:45 `quote 23:36:48 Sgeo: on Phantom_Hoover's talk page on lumeniki; I'm sure you can figure it out. 23:36:49 now, I should add one thing 23:36:54 Seems HackEgo is still broken. 23:37:01 No output. 23:37:04 so therefore its computational complexity class must be super-TC, since it can in fact model a UTM, as evidenced by the existence of UTMs within it 23:37:08 I don't believe the universe is infinite. 23:37:09 So there. 23:37:12 `run ls 23:37:28 No output. 23:37:32 A UTM can model a UTM, can't it? 23:37:58 alise: Size is the only possible reason why no UTM within the Universe can model the Universe if it is TC 23:38:08 Why is it tthat to me, it's obvious both coppro and alise are wrong? 23:38:10 coppro: I also believe a UTM can probably model the universe. 23:38:17 Sgeo: Because you are wrong in a different way. 23:38:33 alise, you didn't have to deal with Lumenos' debate maps. 23:38:44 if you had a UTM within the Universe, and the Universe is just TC, then that UTM could model the Universe 23:38:55 except for the obvious fact that it's physically impossible 23:39:20 I think there's actually a proof of the Universe's irreducibility 23:39:25 Phantom_Hoover: This wiki is so confusing... 23:39:34 When you said "Within the universe", you mean physically? 23:39:36 coppro: that would be an astonishing result. 23:39:40 coppro: it would disprove the church-turing thesis. 23:39:45 coppro: thus I believe it is not so. 23:39:49 i wish to point out that a deterministic TM can easily model a nondeterministic one, with just an exponential blowup in time 23:40:13 (in case someone here didn't know this already) 23:40:14 Phantom_Hoover: The only solid opinion I can come up with is that this Lumenos guy possibly likes RationalWiki, which makes me detest him (her?). 23:40:15 In the Wikiindex dispute, he eviscerated the discussion and scrambled everything in it. 23:40:31 alise: it would also disprove everything and prove everything, since it would be a contradiction 23:40:31 "Hereto sapien"? 23:41:02 it is obvious that the Universe cannot be modeled from within itself; the question is whether the computational power is sufficient 23:41:09 and also, the usual quantum complexity class BQP fits snugly inside the deterministic complexity class PSPACE 23:41:41 actually now I'm just raging at RationalWiki, which is nicer than reading this wiki 23:41:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:42:13 (meaning that turning quantum -> deterministic is also just a question of blowing up space or time requirements) 23:42:20 What's wrong with RationalWiki? 23:42:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:43:21 Sgeo: It's mostly filled with foaming-at-the-mouth people who seem to like making fun of silly religious beliefs more than RATIONALLY EXAMINING THINGS. 23:43:35 alise: also, the Church-Turing thesis is not something that can be taken for granted. That's the whole point of digital physics 23:43:36 Anti-religion is perfectly acceptable but it is not rationality, and their articles also are almost completely devoid of reason; it approaches more of a comedy wiki. 23:43:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:44:02 And I dislike their writing style. It smacks of "Lol, I am smarter than you" no matter who reads it. 23:44:18 alise, I'm afraid I'm one of the administrators, so I'll just leave before an argument starts. 23:44:23 *PLEASE* 23:44:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit). 23:44:39 Phantom_Hoover: Is it rational to leave whenever someone disagrees with your site? 23:44:41 Wow, that guy's touchy. 23:45:15 -!- coppro has set topic: Phantom_Hoover: Is it rational to leave whenever someone disagrees with your site [RationalWiki]? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 23:46:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:46:34 alise, it's more the fact that it's quarter to 12 and I don't like arguing with people. 23:46:48 By all means create an account and criticise the site there 23:46:48 Phantom_Hoover: You know, entering to say something after logreading is a technique I used to use and is widely regarded as extremely immature here. 23:46:51 Talk or don't talk at all. 23:46:59 I'm sorry, then. 23:47:01 No, I'm criticising the site here. If you were mature you would ignore me instead of confronting me like that. 23:47:09 No, OK? 23:47:10 Or at least confronting me in a more... rational way. 23:47:23 I'm allowed not to want to have an argument, OK? 23:48:01 I disagree with your argument, but I'll defend to death your right not to have it 23:48:05 And it's not "my site", either. 23:48:24 "My boss" isn't MY boss, either. 23:48:27 He's other people's boss too. 23:48:36 Phantom_Hoover: If you don't want an argument, don't respond to me. 23:48:37 is there a static place to announce a language? 23:48:44 jabb: Not really. 23:48:50 The wiki is where it's normally done. 23:48:53 How would you announce something ina static place? 23:48:56 Now really, saying "Don't say that! Stop criticising that!" won't stop an argument, only provoke it. 23:48:57 jabb: wiki. 23:49:00 esolangs.org/wiki 23:49:10 He's used that already. 23:49:47 Also, I'm not telling you not to say it. I'm saying that I'm not interested in responding to your criticism. 23:49:56 jabb: what do you mean by static? there is the esoforum which is only barely alive... 23:50:06 an esoteric esoteric programming language? 23:50:12 Phantom_Hoover: But you did anyway. 23:50:18 I didn't say that. 23:50:29 Personally I think your response comes across as quite emotionally attached to this wiki, to the point of not wanting to rationally reply to criticism. 23:50:35 (And don't say I'm starting an argument, you kindled the fire.) 23:50:41 How? 23:50:49 I linked you to Lumenos. 23:50:52 ahh, used to announcing something on usenet or something 23:50:53 "in some assembly language"? 23:51:04 Phantom_Hoover: By leaving/rejoining a lot and saying "NO DON'T TALK ABOUT IT". 23:51:13 jabb: we used to have a mailing list 23:51:16 uncountable aeons ago 23:51:17 I left/rejoined TWICE. 23:51:27 Phantom_Hoover: Well, I didn't say much int he first place... 23:52:54 Look, I have to do this thing called SLEEPING now, and I was tired as it was. I don't really want to have a nice day spoilt by an argument, and I tried to indicate this. 23:53:06 jabb, what's the data type of the hand? 23:53:22 Phantom_Hoover: Stop whining and just go to sleep. 23:53:25 You don't have to be emotional. 23:53:41 You would think -- okay, I refuse to make another jab at the name RationalWiki. How could I stoop so low? 23:53:54 Why do you always have to act oh so superior to all lesser beings? 23:54:02 Anyway. I'll sleep now. 23:54:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:54:09 I'm not acting superior ... you're acting hurt. 23:54:15 both 23:54:22 Are the two actings mutually exclusive? 23:54:25 jabb, so In Hand's data type varies? 23:54:27 How am I acting superior? 23:54:32 you usually are 23:54:40 I was belittling Phantom_Hoover, yes... 23:54:51 But I don't recall bembiggening myself. 23:54:57 Hey, a use for C unions! 23:55:10 You do it implicitly 23:55:13 Sgeo: There are plenty. 23:55:16 like a politician does 23:55:19 coppro: That's not very helpful. 23:55:26 "What am I doing wrong?" "You're breaking it!!" 23:55:31 "How?" "That's just what you do!" 23:55:38 I'd elaborate but I'm running late and I might miss my bus if I don't leave in like 2 minutes 23:56:12 alise: "stop whining" and variants come across as insulting. 23:56:31 uorygl: I never denied I was being insulting: only that I was acting superior. 23:56:37 Anyway, that rather contradicts with coppro saying that I'm always like that. 23:56:40 Sgeo, yeah can be a number, list or null (None in python) 23:57:15 jabb, should the interpreter be considered to be a reference interpreter? 23:57:16 Sgeo: any memory location is that way, list, number or none 23:57:26 And which wins, spec or interp? 23:57:46 Spec seems a bit vague in places. I'll work on clarifying it based on interp 23:58:21 hmm, I'd go with interp 23:58:47 but they're remarkably close, albeit the specs is a bit vague 2010-06-05: 00:07:36 The TODO's have some stuff which is implemented wrong. Like some opcodes right now have strings instead of a list of numbers, so the program can't do anything with them. 00:08:04 just the macro opcodes 00:16:07 "Tesla didn't need a computer" 00:16:12 "He just told the data what to do and it damn well did it" 00:16:15 "he also fought corporate crime and satanism with mark twain in a giant robot" 00:17:41 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: So Chuck Norris was their secret lovechild?). 00:19:55 Wow, that last thing is actually a comic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Fists_of_Science 00:19:58 (SORRY GRAPHICAL NOVEL.) 00:23:55 It's legal to use a police scanner, right? 00:24:03 Or an app that ultimately gets audio from one? 00:24:22 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:25:02 Sgeo: wat? 00:25:17 http://www.appbrain.com/app/com.scannerradio 00:27:12 Sgeo: Who knows; cares. 00:39:11 Oh! Slereah visited us! 00:39:22 05:49:51 and how does FTL imply time travel? 00:39:25 I didn't realise he was that retarded 00:43:56 hmm, to get FTL you'd need to change enough of known physics that it might not imply time travel after all 00:44:54 03:54:51 Although "Turing-complete" here means something rather different to everywhere else. 00:44:55 It does not. 00:45:04 ais523: HII 00:45:06 ais523: You hid from me again 00:45:35 we need a nice formal definition of turing-completeness on the wiki so we can just point people at it to shut them up 00:45:44 not just "can emulate a turing machine", an actual formal definition 00:46:32 A finite state machine can easy emulate _a_ turing machine 00:49:07 ff 00:49:08 see 00:49:11 this is why we need it 00:49:12 ais523: you write it 00:49:40 alise: I don't think even mathematicians have a nice formal definition that works in every corner-case 00:49:59 or there wouldn't have been that row about the 2,3 thing 00:50:38 ais523: "There exists a function UTM_P: UTM -> P such that interp_P(UTM_P(x)) = UTM(x) for all x" 00:50:44 this leaves the infinite program thing vague, which is probably for the best. 00:54:38 ais523: but I feel that directly appealing to UTMs is unwise. 00:56:03 yes, maybe 00:56:16 and you have problems with halting and IO, too 00:58:14 treating IO formally is easy enough, you just need a potentially-infinite input stream 00:58:14 done 00:58:27 don't need to have it as part of the UTM definition 00:58:37 i don't see how halting is an issue 01:06:26 Wikipedia: A proof that a self-organising, democratic system can arise with very little to no outside control, decentralised, on the internet... and it'll be even more bureaucratic and self-congratulating than in real life. 01:06:28 A success, and a failure. 01:07:28 Wikipedia doesn't face challenges that a real-world polical system might face 01:08:11 And some people on Wikipedia are physically more powerful than others 01:08:17 Wikiphysically 01:08:27 Like in real life. 01:11:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 01:11:29 How is Wikipedia democratic? 01:12:09 -!- jabb has quit (Quit: brb, upgrading). 01:12:33 uorygl: Votes^WArticles for Deletion 01:12:48 Although admittedly sometimes the sysops just decide to take their own preferred course of action instead. 01:12:58 It's a discussion! Your thoughts do not really count. 01:25:56 alise, lambdamoo? 01:26:36 Sgeo: \mu 01:26:40 ? 01:26:46 Oh, heh 01:30:35 "Thank God we have @reapers to make sure that anyone not active enough get 01:30:35 fragged. But overpopulation and massive programming projects are sucking this 01:30:35 MOO under!" 01:30:40 I didn't realise he was that retarded <-- I think you confuse "retarded" with "don't know a lot of physics" 01:30:56 But even /I/ know that and I'm incredibly physicstarded :P 01:31:32 alise, well, I readily agree to being more of a physicstarded than you. But I'm not a retard in general. That was my point. 01:32:38 every animal is retarded 01:32:42 alise, heck I doubt either of my parents would know this either. Both are social science more or less 01:32:44 but some animals are more retarded than others 01:32:55 are in* 01:33:44 alise, I heard economists and CEOs were some of the most retarded ones in general 01:33:59 with a few exceptions for the CEOs 01:34:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 01:34:11 strange animals 01:34:12 Economists aren't as bad as their reputation. 01:34:19 alise, oh? 01:34:19 CEOs sure. 01:34:26 Actual economists are mostly sane. 01:34:38 alise, what about the current financial crisis? 01:34:41 I'm talking the kind that actually work on the science/theory of economics. 01:34:47 ah 01:34:49 Who everyone then ignores. 01:34:53 right :) 01:35:58 -!- augur has joined. 01:37:51 alise, anyway, Jobs doesn't seem like a stupid CEO. Wait. Ipad 01:37:54 forget what I said 01:38:48 AnMaster: Jobs is a clever man -- and probably quite nice -- he just has different values to most other people. 01:38:57 He doesn't care much about openness in technology, for instance. 01:39:04 true 01:39:16 The folklore.org stories paint him as a bit of an asshole, but really, we all knew that already. 01:39:24 A nice asshole. Go fig. 01:40:40 XD 01:41:24 -!- sshc has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:51:18 -!- jabb has joined. 01:55:39 alise, wrt apple (took a bit to find it, knew I had seen it somewhere): http://media.fukung.net/images/24383/e6fb96d7a9dcc822029dd97dd79382d7.jpg (sfw) 01:57:09 I'd take an iPad if it was cheap :P 01:58:56 alise, ah so the last paragraph doesn't apply to you then ;P 01:59:17 I bought an iPhone in 2007 and it was like 400 01:59:26 And it didn't have any apps then even, so yeah, that was pretty dumb 01:59:28 alise, what is that in SEK? 01:59:30 I jailbroke it on the first day though 01:59:37 Who knows, with the exchange rates now 01:59:42 4635kr apparently 01:59:45 I forget the exact price 01:59:52 iirc those changed quite a lot since then 01:59:52 hm 02:00:04 It was expensive, anyway; you could get a decent laptop for its price. 02:00:15 alise, a thinkpad? 02:00:17 nah 02:00:35 a thinkpad almost one year ago was around 9000 SEK iirc 02:00:50 or 10000, don't remember any more 02:00:59 I got my Toshiba Satellite for just under 500. 02:01:10 It's a capable, if low-specced laptop. I could have got much higher specs, but I preferred the long battery life. 02:01:19 alise, cheap 02:01:31 alise, and not a thinkpad 02:01:37 and even more "not a mac" 02:01:52 alise, anyway I bet it doesn't have a magnesium roll-cage ;P 02:01:59 (iirc my thinkpad does!) 02:04:50 night alise, ais523 02:05:02 ais523, wait, you are up very late aren't you? 02:05:02 night 02:05:10 alise: same reasoning 02:05:12 AnMaster: yes 02:05:14 AnMaster: very late? 02:05:16 2am is not so late. 02:05:19 I'm up! 02:05:36 alise, true, 03:00 (use 24h dammit!) is later 02:05:43 *yawn* 02:05:49 OH THREE HUNDRED HOURS 02:06:08 no, that one doesn't even make sense 02:06:19 it is not 300 hours, nor 300 minutes 02:07:07 It's called military time and you were just supporting it. 02:12:49 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:12:56 Now I have IRC server in my computer 02:14:18 You can see if it work! 02:15:09 hoo-ray 02:15:37 The 6667 of portage ?! 02:15:45 * Connecting to zzo38computer.cjb.net (24.207.48.53) port 6667... 02:15:47 Slow, or failed. 02:17:33 zzo38: timeout 02:18:22 Sorry, I turned it off for a few seconds to edit the configuration. Try zzo38computer.cjb.net:194 02:18:42 Wow, using the actual IRC port? You are crazy 02:18:44 s/$/./ 02:19:11 zzo38: Connect, then. 02:19:40 I am on 02:20:24 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 02:20:28 * zzo38 (~zzo38@24.207.48.53) has joined +ADMIN 02:20:28 Hello! 02:20:28 Sorry, I have to leave now 02:20:28 * zzo38 has quit (zzo38) 02:20:28 Wait, 194 is the official irc port? 02:20:40 Sgeo: one of three of the iana-assigned ones 02:27:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:33:47 oh, the reply to my message scrolled past the scrollback and now I must consult the logs! 02:34:56 aha, and phantom_hoover has left so I have no one to reply to the reply to 02:38:54 wat 02:47:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:48:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:50:55 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:52:23 -!- augur has joined. 02:58:43 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:59:29 I am back on now, and I will tell you a hint: If you are unable to read the log file, you can use the FLUSH command to flush the file so that it can be read. 02:59:43 (Enter the channel name as the parameter to FLUSH command) 03:00:58 As far as I know there is no standard format for IRC log, I created SIRCL format for IRC log. I propose SIRCL has a standard for IRC log format. What is your opinion? 03:03:40 Standard IRC log format is the raw IRC messages. 03:04:07 * Sgeo_ decides he'd trust alise with his life, unless anger and/or yelling could threaten his life 03:04:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:04:11 -!- _lament has changed nick to lament. 03:04:41 Failing that, some obvious /(\d\d):(\d\d)(:(\d\d))?\s+<([^>]+)>\s(.*)/ produces (h,m,(s?),name,msg) 03:04:45 Sgeo_: Good to... know... 03:04:55 Well, maybe not literally my life 03:05:04 Maybe computer-related decisions 03:05:13 Was trying to be funny partially 03:05:17 09:17:22 i _think_ minimal overlap may be a hexagonal pattern, isn't that the equivalent to kepler's theorem in two dimensions 03:05:21 honeycomb conjecture iirc 03:05:26 proven as part of kepler's conjecture's proof 03:05:41 The honeycomb conjecture states that a regular hexagonal grid or honeycomb represents the best way to divide a surface into regions of equal area with the least total perimeter. Mathematician Thomas C. Hales proved the conjecture in 1999 with revisions in 2001. 03:06:06 See http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irc_log/ADMIN/1275700304 you can see the SIRCL format in real action! (I know this channel does not use it) 03:06:10 kepler's conjecture? 03:06:19 The Kepler conjecture, named after Johannes Kepler, is a mathematical conjecture about sphere packing in three-dimensional Euclidean space. It says that no arrangement of equally sized spheres filling space has a greater average density than that of the cubic close packing (face-centered cubic) and hexagonal close packing arrangements. The density of these arrangements is slightly greater than 74%. 03:06:21 SIRCL? 03:06:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler_conjecture 03:06:43 proved by Thomas Hales using exhaustive computer calculations ikn part 03:06:52 *in 03:06:55 (so some people consider it "not completely rigorous" but they're full of baloney) 03:07:01 I called it SIRCL format, short for "Simple IRC Log" 03:07:01 -!- ws has quit (Quit: ...). 03:07:43 That was proven? 03:07:47 Yes. 03:07:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler_conjecture#Hales.27_proof 03:08:08 I seem to not be up to date in mathematical knowledge 03:08:18 I think Flatterland said it was yet to be proven 03:08:18 -!- augur has joined. 03:08:23 I like how his proof was 250 pages of notes and 3 gigabytes of programs, data and results. 03:08:25 SIRCL format does not have to be used for only one channel, although it is common to log each channel separately anyways 03:08:27 It's a 2001 book 03:08:29 Fuck the system :P 03:08:52 Sgeo_: well in 1998 he announced it complete, in 2003 the ann. math. panel announced it was 99% certain of the result 03:09:01 and Hales (2005) in ann. math. was a 100-page summary 03:09:09 so it was quite new and not widely accepted in 2001 03:09:18 Ah 03:09:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:How_to_Escape_from_a_Black_Hole.svg 03:11:43 -!- augur_ has joined. 03:11:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pyramid_of_35_spheres_animation.gif I have again fallin in love with ray-traced images 03:11:55 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pyramid_of_35_spheres_animation_original.gif 03:12:35 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:14:16 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Created_with_Persistence_of_Vision HAWT 03:16:20 alise! 03:16:49 Yes? 03:19:01 No? 03:19:03 Is Blender generally well-regarded? 03:19:21 Well-regarded as in "I HOPE YOU ENJOY HORRIBLE INTERFACES HAHAHAHAHAHA" 03:19:25 Apart from that, yes 03:19:27 13:51:23 hmm, obviously he'll have ignored me based on that inference and won't hear this 03:19:27 13:51:26 even though it's wrong 03:19:28 :) 03:20:39 alise, what other free 3d authoring tools are available? 03:20:45 Besides POV-Ray, ofc 03:21:06 none 03:21:42 Is Wings3D free? 03:21:44 I forgot 03:24:07 yes 03:24:09 that thing 03:24:14 that erlang thing 03:24:22 Wings 3D can be used to model and texture low to mid-range polygon models. Wings does not support animations and has only basic OpenGL rendering facilities, although it can export to external rendering software such as POV-Ray and YafRay. Still, Wings is often used in combination with other software, whereby models made in Wings are exported to applications more specialized in rendering and animation such as Blender. 03:24:54 15:23:06 Phantom_Hoover: They're not *scary*, they're just more complex than your ordinary integral. <-- s/more/even more/ 03:24:56 So models don't look polished in Wings3D. How is that inherently a bad thing? 03:24:57 integrals are not complex. 03:25:04 Sgeo_: did I say that? 03:25:10 Although no animation support is not a good thing 03:26:45 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:27:20 If you would like to see any additional logged/predefined channels in my IRC, you can propose them in the +ADMIN channel. 03:30:30 16:10:03 * oerjan kept nagging about NB. PLEASE intercal DO NOT being simpler 03:30:32 eventually i listened 03:31:14 What about INTERCAL exactly? 03:31:23 You don't want simpler? 03:31:33 Or do you mean something else, too 03:32:01 If it is CLC-INTERCAL you can modify the syntax however you want (even at runtime) 03:33:21 16:35:09 Seems kind of interesting to me that the same wiki having languages like LOLCODE also has such intellectual articles on Turing-completeness :) 03:33:21 16:36:12 "Can haz stdio"? Classic. :) 03:33:21 16:36:41 maedhros777: you may note that boolfuck shows you don't even need more than two values 0 and 1 for TC, which means increment and decrement are the same operation 03:33:21 16:37:04 also some people here like to hate LOLCODE. just saying. ;D 03:33:22 16:37:23 oerjan: It's the greatest language ever :) 03:33:24 16:37:29 Besides BF, of course. 03:33:26 16:37:46 I should make a real-time multiplayer FPS in BF. =D 03:33:28 You are my mortal enemy now maedhros777 03:33:39 zzo38: No, I wrote a way to do an INTERCAL/J polyglot. 03:34:05 hey, does everyone remember the description of THQ9+ 03:34:07 alise: OK maybe you should post them at wiki, or something like that 03:34:08 or something like that 03:34:17 where T implemented "turing-completess" 03:34:24 zzo38: no point 03:34:28 lament: oerjan's 03:34:29 probably cpressey came up with it 03:34:31 oh 03:34:33 i think 03:34:39 i can't find it anywhere 03:34:41 X Makes the programming language Turing-complete. How this is supposed to be achieved is not clearly specified. (The Perl implementation generates a random number, adds it to each character in the program, and interprets the resulting program code as Perl code.) 03:34:43 http://esolangs.org/wiki/CHIQRSX9_Plus 03:34:54 probably not oerjan's finest moment in language design 03:35:01 hm 03:35:13 i thought i remembered one that just added a single instruction 03:35:15 especially as CHIQRSX9+ is actually an infinite family of languages 03:35:22 all of which are turing complete, but 03:35:33 the implementation selects from a finite (and thus very limited) subset of these at runtime 03:35:36 and interprets the program in it 03:35:40 which is clearly lunacy 03:35:57 "The Perl implementation generates a random number, adds it to each character in the program, and interprets the resulting program code as Perl code." LOL 03:37:28 -!- augur has joined. 03:37:44 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:38:08 06:14:10 Phantom_Hoover, a bit hard here too, I have no children. It would be rather strange if I did, I'm 20 after all... 03:38:12 yeah because there are no teen fathers 03:39:39 oh, i found it 03:40:03 apparently oerjan's suggestion was CHIQRS9+ 03:40:17 and then the author of HQ9+ suggested to add X 03:44:59 08:59:41 oh a lunatic 03:45:04 How DARE you call Emperor Norton that. 03:45:18 lament: Please execute AnMaster for treason. 03:46:19 alise, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Multi_Color_Go.JPG 03:46:44 lament: it's a sheep getting raped by a flower? 03:47:22 yes 03:47:37 10:02:33 oklopol, didn't* ehird use windows95 for a bit? 03:47:38 10:02:39 I mean, like during last year 03:47:38 yes 03:48:00 10:04:46 AnMaster: oh whatever you're just trolling 03:48:00 reaaaaaaaally, it took you that many pages of pointless anmaster-vim-trolling to figure that out? 03:49:03 wow, he even continued after the topic changes 03:49:14 AnMaster really is a bone-headed die-hard zealot :))) 03:49:59 10:30:51 oerjan, ah, don't remember you doing much with fungoids? 03:49:59 10:31:01 he's done more than you 03:49:59 oh snap :P 03:52:23 10:50:29 then again who the fuck gives a shit about water so i guess it's okay that the random number 100 is associated with it 03:52:24 10:50:34 or wait 03:52:24 10:50:39 actually i love water 03:52:24 he's breaking down 03:54:19 11:16:33 what's less crap (for IM, not irc) 03:54:19 11:16:42 pidgin or telepathy? 03:54:20 pidgin def. 03:54:33 empathy is like prealpha software 04:00:24 12:12:48 oklopol: hard to say. i have a theory that alise is the next zzo38. 04:00:24 i'm listening 04:07:05 14:34:11 pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. [...] 04:07:06 :D 04:07:06 alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia 04:07:13 alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia 04:07:14 :D 04:07:14 alise: could you please check whether the installation files for your browser? :d 04:08:04 14:37:38 Deewiant: ever yours, c. darwin. 17 spring gardens, london, fnord, morphology, adaptive characters, 426. [...] 04:08:05 alise: " e" is already taken), too 04:08:06 I like that address 04:08:45 14:40:11 AnMaster: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions 04:08:45 14:40:22 ais523, hey, was that all versions ^ 04:08:45 14:40:30 yes all versions all versions 04:08:48 fungot is especially brilliant lately 04:09:23 14:41:43 AnMaster: to any airbus plane. 3 passengers sadly died the most awesome thing ever. 04:09:24 xD 04:11:03 14:49:34 AnMaster: un- unless he starts to en- to enjoy watching the tae bo that i had 04:11:03 14:49:45 fungot: Tae bo? 04:11:03 14:49:45 Deewiant: no she no they're not having ah they're not you got to look at why they try to get together there you know 04:11:03 14:50:01 Awfully schizophrenic :-P 04:11:13 HAHAHA 04:11:15 14:52:26 AnMaster: you might as well be in the court i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine 04:11:20 I'm a law student so I am loving my bread machine 04:12:21 20:18:09 what's the mathematica to express a function in terms of a single variable? 04:12:23 #+3& 04:12:30 or f[x_]:=x+3 04:27:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:27:43 -!- augur has joined. 04:28:27 4 28 am doo doo 04:37:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:37:58 -!- augur has joined. 04:43:40 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:50:31 bye 04:51:11 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:51:12 Observation: A transparent casing for a melodica provides all the incentive necessary to properly use the spit valve. 05:31:16 -!- sshc has joined. 05:31:16 -!- sshc has quit (Client Quit). 05:31:25 -!- sshc has joined. 05:37:13 -!- augur has joined. 05:51:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:59:39 Hello 06:00:23 hi 06:00:50 Does it work for you? 06:01:47 I would also like to know which IRC servers and/or IRC clients you like? 06:03:01 I look at the bug report list for ngIRCd some are in German, however. 06:03:06 And some are English 06:07:21 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 06:13:37 I think there was a feature request for channel logging. Well, I have implemented channel logging in ngIRCd. (I simply added a code to the "IRC_WriteStrChannelPrefix" function, and it was not difficult to do) 06:13:52 ngIRCd is very good! 06:14:30 -!- augur has joined. 06:14:57 augur: http://codu.org/tmp/BalMusetteNocturne-wipp1.ogg Me playing two instruments at once 06:15:25 listening 06:15:56 (With apologies for the poor audio quality) 06:16:02 Recording was sucksy 06:16:43 i imagine playing was tricky 06:16:53 A bit! :P 06:17:10 Which two instruments? (I suppose some might be harder than others) 06:17:30 christ maryland is a police state 06:17:30 6 cops had people pulled over in the same one mile stretch of road, with a 7th cop in the shadows waiting to pounce 06:17:33 I can hear the music, and it does seem to work OK 06:17:34 D'aww, do I have to tell you, you should guess :P 06:17:50 But it is difficult for me to figure out the instruments 06:17:57 It always is 06:18:12 Here's a hint: The instrument that sounds like a piano is a piano. 06:18:20 Now, can you play *three* instruments at once? 06:18:28 Here's a useless hint: The instrument that sounds like it could be a harmonica or an accordion is neither. 06:18:45 Yes, that's the hard part 06:18:50 zzo38: I suppose my left foot is free .. 06:18:55 is it ... an ARMONICA? 06:19:21 No. No it is not :P 06:19:23 Do you play the other instrument by feet? 06:19:25 It's a melodica. 06:19:31 zzo38: Naw, one hand each. 06:19:47 it sounds *horrible* 06:19:50 So if you play piano you cannot touch all of the notes at once 06:19:57 If you don't have three hands 06:20:05 yes he can 06:20:18 zzo38: You can't touch every note on the piano at once unless you have twenty hands or so :P 06:20:28 lament: You probably don't appreciate accordions either. Heathen. 06:20:38 Gregor: this is the worst thing i have ever heard 06:20:41 god, my ears 06:21:00 I think it is working OK 06:21:20 Although perhaps it could be played much better if it were played properly 06:21:41 Neither instrument is being played "improperly", but I am a noob at the melodica. 06:21:47 Gregor: i even appreciate melodicas 06:22:02 but they usually don't sound like farting 06:22:07 they're not really meant for chords 06:22:15 wtf. They're meant PRECISELY for chords. 06:22:30 (Decent ones anyway) 06:22:38 of course they aren't 06:22:58 the whole point of a melodica is the expressivity 06:23:11 they're for playing a melody line, hence the name 06:23:29 with a chord, you want some control over the relative volumes of the different notes 06:23:40 lament: You are so ridiculous :P 06:23:44 you can't do that so all the expressivity is lost 06:23:47 Next time do it in Bohlen-Pierce (you will need special instruments), some people will think it is more worse, but to some people it is more better 06:25:31 With a chord, if you are using MIDI or whatever, you can even make it to use a different instruments for Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass, and you can do the same if you have a orchestra to do it for you, or a group of singers to sing it 06:28:15 -!- scott4 has joined. 06:31:26 I have heard of a expensive piano that can be both acoustic piano and electric piano at once, so it can be used with no power, the strings can resonate from the other strings, and use all electronic functions when it is switched on 06:31:58 Yeah, they make those. Basically it can retract the strings and detect the hammers directly like a hammer-action digital piano. 06:32:25 Crazy-expensive, and not actually that great of an idea since it can't possibly sound the same in acoustic and digital mode. 06:32:31 Yes, like that, that is what I have heard of. It is expensive 06:33:23 And really, digital pianos have gotten pretty damn realistic recently. The top-of-the-line models simulate a piano rather than using soundbanks, so they're extremely close to an acoustic. 06:34:34 And yes I know it can't sound the same in both ways, that is a purpose of it, you can have both modes for different kinds of musics! But perhaps they can add a third mode, which is hybrid mode, where the strings are controlled digitally, and if a string is hit by a key, it will detect and record that event. 06:35:15 Hybrid mode would probably be even more expensive a lot more 06:35:55 Not sure whether they have that. 06:36:47 I know that just on a normal acoustic piano, it can make a bit different sound when touching the strings by hand, is there any kind of music that requires one person to play the keys and the other person plays the strings directly? 06:37:13 Or if you place additional object on top of the strings it can vibrate that object as well 06:37:45 -!- scott4 has left (?). 06:38:23 How do you write "wood" in Italian? If the part of the music is you have to knock the wood on the piano, do you have to write "wood" in Italian? 06:38:55 You don't "have" to do anything. 06:39:17 You wouldn't want to write "knock on wood" in English though, could be misconstrued :P 06:40:03 BTW, legno means wood, and it's used to indicate you should strike the string with the wood of the bow on bowed instruments. 06:40:54 What does it mean though, if it is written on a piano music? It can mean that for bowed instruments, but if it is piano, surely you cannot do that 06:41:37 I don't know of any meaning for piano music. 06:41:43 I'll ask my composer friend next time he's online. 06:43:03 Can you write Bohlen-Pierce musics? 06:44:01 In what sense? 06:44:27 Am I capable of making software such that I could cause notes to be played in a Bohlen-Pierce scale? Yes. 06:44:41 Am I capable of writing music in it that doesn't suck? Maybe, maybe not. 06:44:57 Did you ever try? And then you can figure out 06:45:23 I have not. 06:46:01 Have you written music using *any* scale other than 12-TET? 06:46:30 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:46:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:47:09 -!- augur has joined. 06:47:19 http://wonkette.com/415809/arizona-school-demands-black-latino-students-faces-on-mural-be-changed-to-white 06:48:08 What is the purpose of changing that? Just leave it until you happen to make a new mural with white faces? 06:51:17 zzo38: but the NIGGERs and SPICKs! 06:51:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:51:33 -!- augur has joined. 06:52:32 I have written program to play Bohlen-Pierce scale as well, in QBASIC, and in MegaZeux. (The only version of MegaZeux which supports it is P9, which I am the only person that uses it, I am sure because I wrote it and haven't released it yet!) (Version P9 supports playing any frequencies of notes, other versions can use only standard notes) 06:54:38 oh god, Mrs Robinson makes me feel wonderful ::hugs everyone:: :D 06:54:49 (Still, standard notes are the only ones which can be entered directly; to play Bohlen-Pierce you need to program in the frequencies yourself) 06:55:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:07:45 Sightly esoteric way to represent normal note frequencies: f = 440 * 2 07:07:54 Sightly esoteric way to represent normal note frequencies: f = 440 * 2^(x/12). 07:23:25 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:37:25 wonderful. It has just occurred to me that I am probably one of the 10, maybe 5 people in the world most familiar with a new C++ feature. 07:38:43 also, what happened to everyone's favorite Internet girl*? 07:39:16 *Internet girl is an established gender, generally recognized as sharing relatively few elements with female 07:51:17 help :( 07:53:24 help? 07:53:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:53:40 -!- augur has joined. 07:53:52 I hate Flash-reliant websites 07:54:01 He could se his impending interwebs disconnection. 07:54:21 *see 07:54:37 Yeah, ran onto website that had electric version of some magazine. Used Flash, not PDFs. 07:54:47 hate those 07:54:50 die scribd die 07:56:38 Also, One shop had its catalogs only "available" as Flash on Web (why the hell they couldn't put PDFs)? 07:57:41 Of course, standard HTML would be even better... 07:58:20 With no javashit of course... 07:58:59 XHTML > HTML 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:43 Time for me to go to sleep 08:19:51 T-shirt with text "5 > 2". Anyone gets the reference? :-) 08:24:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:27:10 unfortunately not 08:28:58 Hint: XHTML... 09:02:08 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:02:08 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:02:10 -!- HackEgo has joined. 09:02:12 -!- EgoBot has joined. 09:19:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:22:55 CakeProphet, there? 09:23:27 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 09:23:48 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:29:03 " i'm listening" <<< predicting the future only works if you don't tell the people involved 09:29:13 oh wait i guess telling the conclusion is as bad as telling why 09:29:26 It doesn't. 09:29:36 You can have self-fulfilling prophesies. 09:35:06 not in the series i watch 09:36:51 actually i was just thinking about time travel in cayley graphs 09:39:50 ...How? 09:52:16 -!- lament has joined. 09:59:57 err well see i first take an element g of infinite order that commutes with all the others and then i create rows H, gH, g^2H, ... containing all products with g with others, i consider one of these rows a point in time, time travel is when an element is repeated in a later row 10:00:09 i'm trying to find a way to do a thing, but cayley graphs are so fucking general 10:05:07 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:24:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:25:00 oerjan! 10:25:16 Spirit_Sucker! 10:26:25 Indeed! 10:27:22 one of my piano keys is broken :(( 10:27:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:27:45 oklopol, why? 10:28:00 because a tile fell off the ceiling :\ 10:28:37 so there is a war between your ceiling and your piano, got it. 10:28:51 That seems TV Burpesque. 10:29:00 you should check your ceiling for strange vibration damage. 10:29:19 "Well, I like the ceiling, but I like the piano. but which is better?" 10:29:33 My shift key seems to be defective. 10:29:47 it's the piano that should be jealous of the tiles and not the other way around, i've been doing tilings and not played the piano at all for the past month 10:29:53 oklopol: How vital of a key? 10:30:07 Ooh, replace it with a keyboard key. 10:30:11 oklopol: ah. 10:30:15 a rather low Eb 10:30:34 Glue an E to a B and replace it. 10:30:38 Gregor: HackEgo is seriously broken, unless you've just fixed it. 10:30:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:30:47 oerjan: It reset because I fixed it. 10:30:48 `ls 10:30:49 bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.27406 \ wunderbar_emporium 10:30:51 i mostly play atonal stuff 10:30:52 ah 10:31:02 wel 10:31:04 l 10:31:06 `quotes 10:31:07 No output. 10:31:12 `quote 10:31:12 `quote 10:31:13 even if i didn't, i don't know what keys are more vital than others 10:31:14 102| I want to read about Paris in the period 1900-1914 not about the sexual preferences of a bunch of writers >.> 10:31:28 33|IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler! 10:31:52 and where german is completely mangled 10:31:57 i guess i use the white keys more 10:32:03 oerjan: Naturally. 10:32:12 what does "WON" mean? 10:32:15 maybe that's why the nazis won, the english couldn't decipher german codes 10:32:20 "wohnen"? 10:32:36 not because it's easier or anything, i just can't stand keys of different color than my own 10:33:04 Perhaps Turing gave up because of everyone saying "what the hell is the point of TCness?" 10:33:27 KingOfKarlsruhe: isn't it wonnen? i guess you're joking. 10:33:32 gewinnen 10:33:46 oerjan: you mean "gewonnen haben" 10:33:50 oh the ge- is on all forms? 10:34:00 oerjan: The office next to mine had "THE BRO-OFFICE" written on the whiteboard. So I modified it into "THE BROFFICE". Thinking of the diaresis mark as an umlaut made me consider finding the closest German analogue for that phrase and replacing it, but then I got lazy :P 10:34:06 whatever, my german is rusty 10:34:44 oerjan: yes 10:34:56 Gregor: what does BRO- mean 10:35:08 office for black people 10:35:15 Presumably "of brothers"? Except in the "bro" sense of "brothers" 10:35:15 ...right 10:35:23 And with two extremely white people in it :P 10:36:00 Also if it starts with "DIE" then I have to be careful that I don't write it in that order in case I'm interrupted right after I write "DIE" on somebody's whiteboard :P 10:36:48 Gregor: i sometimes get startled by my watch on late tuesday/early wednesday 10:37:27 it has 3-letter english day names, except when changing in the night it briefly passes through the german alternatives 10:37:39 what 10:37:42 :D 10:37:48 dienstag 10:38:01 yeah 10:38:08 but why 10:38:23 lawl 10:38:29 i presume there's a way to set it to use the german ones 10:38:36 It's the middle of the night and suddenly your watch is making threatening remarks. 10:38:45 exactly! 10:40:22 Why are old languages always hideous? 10:40:57 old things always are, otherwise what would be the point of future 10:41:15 oklopol: ... no. 10:41:19 Just no. 10:41:26 I have no further comments on that "no". Just no. 10:41:27 LINGUAE SENILES NOT SUNT HIDEOSAE! 10:41:29 *NON 10:41:48 Gregor: okay, could you elaborate 10:41:50 * oerjan has no idea whether two of those words are correct 10:42:43 oklopol: no, he said! 10:43:14 * oerjan almost, but not quite, manages to remember what office is in german 10:43:16 the idea is, if you're in the past then you make ugly things, if you're in the present, you make normal looking things, and if you're in the future you make awesome shiny things 10:43:31 so that people in the present (us) would have the perfect spot 10:43:43 something to look for, but still a past we can laugh at 10:44:43 oklopol: actually people in the present make strange dysfunctional things. at least that was my conclusion when visiting an art museum with my father the day before yesterday 10:45:33 (it was "crafty" arts too, or whatever it's called, so the old things were actually useable items) 10:47:02 but in the modern section there was a lot of ... weird stuff 10:47:13 was it future stuff? 10:47:26 might as well have been 10:48:08 my gf is leaving for a month to go museum surfing in sweden 10:48:22 heh 10:48:43 which is perfect because now i can just do math 24/7 and go insane 10:49:15 don't go all gödel on us, here 10:49:27 :DSFDASfADSFADSFADSFADF 10:50:17 (you know he starved to death after his wife died because he thought everyone else was trying to poison him) 10:50:33 oh he was that dude 10:50:49 i eat hamburgers off the street, i don't think i'll have that problem 10:50:55 well okay i don't but i might 10:52:06 oh hm she didn't die she was in hospital 10:52:30 well i just remember gdel+poison 10:52:48 i once read this book or two about mathematicians when i was a kid but i can't remember history 10:55:43 ais523: "There exists a function UTM_P: UTM -> P such that interp_P(UTM_P(x)) = UTM(x) for all x" 10:56:10 the function needs to be computable, otherwise you get almost everything 10:56:25 also you may need a postprocessing function as well 11:01:12 aha, and phantom_hoover has left so I have no one to reply to the reply to <-- doomed never to meet again! 11:02:40 The honeycomb conjecture states that a regular hexagonal grid or honeycomb represents the best way to divide a surface into regions of equal area with the least total perimeter. Mathematician Thomas C. Hales proved the conjecture in 1999 with revisions in 2001. 11:02:44 oh that late? 11:03:04 * oerjan thought it was an old easy variation of kepler's problem... 11:03:42 except i guess that is a bit stronger than if you already have decided on spheres, that may still be easy 11:03:49 *circles 11:06:24 (so some people consider it "not completely rigorous" but they're full of baloney) 11:07:03 on the plus side i recall he started a project to get the proof computer verified 11:10:34 -!- tombom has joined. 11:12:11 probably not oerjan's finest moment in language design <-- actually if you count the fact i actually got around to implementing it... 11:12:49 :D 11:15:43 19:40:03 apparently oerjan's suggestion was CHIQRS9+ 11:15:43 19:40:17 and then the author of HQ9+ suggested to add X 11:16:05 i don't quite recall, however i'll point out that the choice of implementation for X was mine alone 11:19:47 20:00:24 12:12:48 oklopol: hard to say. i have a theory that alise is the next zzo38. 11:19:51 20:00:24 i'm listening 11:21:29 you clearly consider zzo38 awesome, _and_ you are constantly considering reimplementing your own version of stuff. Q.E.D. 11:24:36 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:24:45 -!- tombom has joined. 11:25:00 22:17:30 christ maryland is a police state 11:25:00 22:17:30 6 cops had people pulled over in the same one mile stretch of road, with a 7th cop in the shadows waiting to pounce 11:25:57 actually that sounds like it might be a good idea to do occasionally, i'm sure there are car owners driving above the speed limit who count on not being pulled over because someone in front of them is doing the same thing and would be taken first... 11:26:21 assuming you don't consider enforcing speed limits to be a police state in itself 11:26:38 A police state is a state with police in it. 11:26:43 The only true freedom is anarchy. 11:26:44 :P 11:27:32 Gregor: it is not particularly wise to define police state in such a way that almost all people would prefer to live in one 11:27:41 (yeah i noticed the :P) 11:27:55 -!- cheater99 has joined. 11:28:27 people aren't free in anarchy either, they also have to have no clue what's going on, like maybe strapped to a bad with constant lcd injections 11:28:33 *bed 11:28:35 that's freedom 11:29:08 alise: OK!!!!!!! 11:29:32 so to counter that, a perfect society would be one where you could know everything that was going on and still be happy 11:30:07 but i'm the only one in the world who thinks smart people can be happy 11:30:38 clearly i can't be the only one who's... or actually nm 11:30:50 The perfect society is one in which the media constantly placates the people into believing they're in a perfect society. 11:30:53 GOD. BLESS. AMERICA. 11:31:09 yeah countless philosophers have thought the opposite 11:31:35 yes like alise 11:39:33 Hi everyone! 11:42:33 i need a better mouse 11:44:05 Get a cat. 11:44:20 They have a habit of bringing in a wide variety of mice. 11:44:39 I THINK YOU MAY HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD ME 11:44:57 AND YOU MISUNDERESTIMATED ME. 11:44:58 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 11:47:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:48:05 uorygl: onko Phantom_Hoover sinunkin mielestsi hlm 11:48:56 Please just insult me in front of my face. 11:49:02 i did! 11:49:10 Yeah, thanks. 11:49:24 we have our own secret language 11:49:29 Called Finnish. 11:49:54 maybe, i'll never tell 11:50:03 Google translate rather agrees. 11:50:06 :) 11:50:18 And it's unlikely that Finnish would be mistakeable for something else. 11:50:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:50:39 well i do agree but i'm not sure my opinion counts 11:51:42 I had something to say but I forgot it. 11:51:51 i have nothing to say but i'm gonna say it anyway 11:52:26 i thought streaming would make life easier than torrenting but i'm seriously considering going back 11:53:38 or buying a megavideo account, there's a million streaming services and they're the only one you can actually count on 11:53:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 11:53:57 Noerjan? 11:54:31 maybe i'll insult oerjan now 11:54:32 let's see... 11:54:54 uorygl: eix ollu aika lol ku oerjan lhti hei 11:55:16 i need to learn more languages 11:55:47 also that didn't really insult oerjan, actually i have no idea what it meant 11:55:48 Baah, Google doesn't help very much. 11:56:02 "hey wasn't it pretty lol when oerjan left" 11:56:31 i should not let things out unfiltered 11:58:04 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:58:21 Like flies! 11:58:24 They drop! 11:58:31 MWAHAHA 12:24:03 Baah, why is no-one interested in the TreeVM? 12:26:29 TreeVM? 12:28:00 A VM that operates on a tree as the fundamental data structure. 12:29:27 Me and CakeProphet were working on it yesterday. 12:30:16 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:31:42 * Phantom_Hoover decides to switch to KDE again. 12:31:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:32:00 wow 12:32:08 i've only played like 250 games of minesweeper on this computer 12:32:23 and there was actually a slight inference i needed to make during the last game :O 12:33:01 Phantom_Hoover: link? 12:33:03 by which i mean this isn't a puzzle game 12:34:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:34:23 Phantom_Hoover: link? 12:34:26 It doesn't work for some reason. 12:34:35 jabb, it's in yesterday's logs. 12:34:48 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D 12:34:54 Then select the second entry. 12:35:05 Do a text search for "tree". 12:51:24 Blargh, I need to fix my packages. 12:57:44 :o 12:57:59 Phantom_Hoover: Hallo 12:58:05 Yay! 12:58:20 Trees. 12:58:35 So have you had any ideas for the language? 13:03:41 ....none 13:03:56 .. 13:04:03 * CakeProphet is very tired and baked? 13:09:38 baked? 13:09:44 What time is it for you? 13:10:09 Wait, you weren't the guy who'd been up for about 3 days, were you? 13:22:52 It's 5:22am here 13:23:03 It's 1:22 here. 13:23:08 PM, if it's unclear. 13:25:01 where i live time doesn't exit 13:25:03 *exist 13:25:42 How can you communicate with us, then? 13:25:49 oh umm 13:26:18 well err 13:38:09 -!- Gregor has joined. 13:38:18 hi Gregor finally you came 13:38:24 Wooh airport 13:38:30 Airport! 13:38:33 ``` 13:38:34 No output. 13:38:35 airport <3 13:38:44 Zeppelin! 13:38:57 Zeppelins are probably the coolest things ever. 13:39:20 Led Zeppelin? 13:39:47 no the lighter ones that can fly 13:40:03 Although lead balloons can fly. 13:40:07 Mythbusters. 13:40:18 heh 13:40:31 not exactly very surprising 14:00:27 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:06:26 lead balloons? 14:10:06 Balloons. Made of lead. 14:10:15 It does exactly what it says on the tin. 14:12:21 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:18:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:19:09 haha 14:44:02 * Phantom_Hoover is desperately trying to find a situation in which he can call JavaScript communist. 14:44:13 Since its object system is classless. 14:54:21 looks like you've found it 14:55:46 Phantom_Hoover: btw, you wondered what my compiler compiled? it compiles a small language I made (not a very esoteric one though, mostly kind of ordinary) 14:56:23 Esoteric is overrated. 14:57:18 nah, I think it is pretty justly rated 14:57:22 -!- alise has joined. 14:57:28 'Artographer. 15:00:00 olsner, what's the language like? 15:02:02 Phantom_Hoover: mostly C:ish, but with modules and some differences in the syntax for types 15:02:20 Hmm. 15:02:22 olsner: Oh, is this that M++ thing? 15:02:41 well, based on the same ideas, but not really 15:03:02 M++? 15:03:13 olsner, what's the language like?00:28:58 Hint: XHTML... 15:03:13 wat 15:03:14 this is like the fourth time I've started making something like that, but only this time it ended up as a compiler that can actually do anything 15:03:19 Phantom_Hoover: some thing olsner wrote two posts about on his blog then gave up on 15:03:25 *newline before 00:28:58 15:03:56 in particular, I've dropped all the "++" parts to make it easier to get somewhere 15:04:17 well, dropping the ++ part from C++ gives you a vastly superior language 15:04:19 so good idea 15:04:29 What's wrong with ++? 15:04:31 olsner: make sure to stray far away from D territory; it is a failure and an abomination, so don't repeat it. 15:04:36 Phantom_Hoover: C++ is an abhorrent language 15:04:58 Oh, you weren't expressing some strange dislike for the post- and pre-decrement operators. 15:04:59 02:30:38 Gregor: HackEgo is seriously broken, unless you've just fixed it. 15:04:59 02:30:40 --- join: KingOfKarlsruhe (~nice@p5B14D8B0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #esoteric 15:04:59 02:30:47 oerjan: It reset because I fixed it. 15:05:02 YAY SEXY TIME 15:05:12 Someone find the `addquotes we've done in the meantime 15:05:27 aha, where did D go in particular that was bad? 15:05:50 Googling "M++" gives something weird which seems to involve both Unix and sharks. 15:06:58 Wait, isn't C a subset of C++? In the sense that a valid C program is also a valid C++ program? 15:07:14 only *almost* 15:07:36 I mean, there's some mad stuff, like references. 15:09:56 Anyway, is there a link to a spec, olsner? 15:09:56 well, in terms of the sets of valid programs, there are many valid C programs that are not valid in C++ 15:10:55 nah, not really, but I might write one eventually :) 15:11:05 Example code? 15:13:41 02:34:00 oerjan: The office next to mine had "THE BRO-OFFICE" written on the whiteboard. So I modified it into "THE BROFFICE". Thinking of the diaresis mark as an umlaut made me consider finding the closest German analogue for that phrase and replacing it, but then I got lazy :P 15:13:50 I love diaereses <3 15:13:54 aha, where did D go in particular that was bad? 15:13:56 Everywhere. 15:14:09 Phantom_Hoover: e.g. int *x = malloc(butt) 15:14:18 Wait, what? 15:14:26 Phantom_Hoover: no implicit casting from void * in C++ 15:14:26 What is butt? 15:14:29 anything 15:14:40 olsner: It tries to be everything: it has (specified) laziness, closures, templates that border on macros, ... 15:14:59 olsner: In being all this, the actual underlying C++-esque language is very drab and boring without much insightful design; the rest is simply heaped on. 15:15:21 Heaping stuff on is a respected design principle! 15:15:28 olsner: There's also the fact that getting the toolchains to work is actually the hardest thing to do in the language -- and of any language -- but that's not about the language. 15:15:36 Albert Einstein himself praised its simplicity! 15:16:10 (Seriously: To get the latest-stuff-that-actually-works, you have to compile LLVM yourself, then fiddle with CMake settings endlessly, then run the right script to compile Tango, make sure you don't specify D2, sometimes you have to do this in seperate stages, and /then/ you have to manually install the files.) 15:16:14 (And even then it only works sometimes.) 15:17:14 02:40:22 Why are old languages always hideous? 15:17:16 Lisp is not hideous. 15:17:24 And Lisp is one of THE oldest languages. 15:17:31 What predates it... hmm, Fortran. That's about it. 15:17:47 Lisp is an exception. 15:17:56 Phantom_Hoover: Algol isn't so ugly. 15:17:56 alise: Or, you can download the Tango bundle and untar it. :-P 15:18:17 example code (BF interpreter): http://paste.cplusplus.se/paste.php?id=11910 15:18:17 Phantom_Hoover: Also, Pascal isn't so ugly. 15:18:25 The thing that gets me is mainly the p 15:18:27 Phantom_Hoover: Basically: Lisp, and anything Niklaus Wirth touched, isn't ugly. 15:18:37 POINTLESS ALL CAPS 15:18:43 You also haven't had to compile LLVM yourself since LLVM 2.6. 15:18:52 THAT WAS NOT POINTLESS; THAT WAS A SIDE-EFFECT OF LIMITATIONS OF THE CHARACTER SETS BACK THEN. 15:19:00 Deewiant: Okay then: it USED to be flaming death, now it's just partly flaming death. 15:19:13 IT'S STILL UGLY. 15:19:27 At any point in time since, I don't know, 2008 maybe, there have been Tango bundles. 15:19:47 Phantom_Hoover: WELL, NOT EVERY LANGUAGE DID THAT. INDEED ALGOL 68, BLOATED BEAST THAT IT WAS, DEFINED THINGS ABSTRACTLY WITH UNDERLINES AND LOWERCASE TEXT -- AND SPECIFIED THAT IMPLEMENTERS MUST MAKE THIS WORK; THE MOST COMMON STRATEGY WAS UPPERCASE + PUNCTUATION MARKS. 15:19:59 (YOU COULD USE RESERVED WORDS AS VARIABLE NAMES BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE SET AS VARIABLES, NOT AS UNDERLINED KEYWORDS.) 15:20:08 Deewiant: But binaries are meh :P 15:20:29 alise: If you insist on building from source, don't be surprised if it gets tricky. :-P 15:20:55 I'll just let pikhq continue this debate, he hates the D toolchain mess even more than me 15:21:03 pikhq pikhq pikhq (if you call his name thrice he appears) 15:22:18 How much of a mess you end up in depends mostly on the project you want to build, I suppose 15:22:19 How inefficient. 15:22:31 If you're just starting to code something it's not at all bad. 15:22:34 He should try to get it down to at most 2. 15:23:52 Has E been invented? 15:24:14 I'm pretty sure there's a language called E. 15:24:15 Dammit, yes. 15:24:17 Yes. 15:24:22 It's a capability-based language thing. Quite nice. 15:24:25 And F... 15:24:27 There's only a few letters that haven't been taken. 15:24:46 H? 15:25:28 Damn. 15:25:35 Hmm... 15:25:43 What about ? 15:26:06 Bonus points because people will confuse it with B. 15:26:44 A G H I N O P X 15:26:54 Based on some quick Google-checking. 15:27:09 Ooh, X seems nice. 15:27:35 There's X++, but not X. :-P 15:29:07 Is X++-- sensible? 15:29:11 Dibs on the entire greek alphabet 15:29:15 Or --X++? 15:29:31 Dibs on Cyrillic! 15:29:31 alise: Lambda's taken :-P 15:29:50 And all Asian scripts. 15:30:03 And various scripts for conlangs. 15:30:39 the greek alphabet is great because literally every single character is pretty except capital xi 15:30:59 Wait, can I have capital xi? 15:31:23 Ξ 15:31:26 Do you really want it? 15:31:32 Hmm. 15:31:33 I don't know, I think capital omicron is a bit boring 15:31:51 I'll give you the Kanji for lowercase xi and zeta. 15:32:03 Absolutely not. 15:32:05 Zeta is beautiful. 15:32:13 Deewiant: Boring, perhaps, but not inelegant. 15:32:14 OK, just lowercase xi. 15:32:28 Uppercase xi has a certain charm when serif. 15:32:29 "The upper-case letter of omicron (O) was originally used as a symbol for Big O notation," 15:32:32 Like you'd notice that. 15:32:36 Phantom_Hoover: Definitely not lowercase Xi. 15:32:41 You know what? These letters aren't for sale. 15:32:41 It's serious business. 15:32:45 You can't sell dibs. 15:32:47 alise: I don't find it particularly pretty. 15:32:50 Swapsies? 15:33:10 Deewiant: Okay, then: Every other letter. And don't say "not the uppercase ones that are equivalent to Latin ones" because they're only boring because they're familiar. 15:33:16 Hmm, I also call the Talking Leaves. 15:33:18 And Greek text, in general, looks gorgeous. 15:33:27 alise: I wasn't going to. 15:34:12 Can I have theta? 15:34:20 No. 15:34:28 okay this is interesting, when playing minesweeper, i can't simultaneously solve another problem EXCEPT if i do all the inference speaking out loud 15:34:45 I'll give you most of the conlangs. 15:35:01 so maybe natural languages do have some use 15:35:02 The only flaw of the greek alphabet is... that lowercase upsilon and nu are very slightly confusable? Dunno. 15:35:06 Not really. 15:35:10 or at least languages 15:35:23 Well... the way χ hangs below the baseline is strange. 15:35:50 It also represents a weird sound, at least in the IPA. 15:36:00 "the IPA"? You're strange. 15:36:10 Yes, I know. 15:36:10 Why's that strange? 15:36:30 http://scripts.sil.org/cms/sites/nrsi/media/Gentium_home_5.png i just want to stare at this all day 15:36:31 hmm, i wonder if i could solve a problem, watch a tv series and play minesweeper simultaneously 15:36:35 Deewiant: because IPA is usually treated as... a unit 15:36:42 And that's not a weird sound :-P 15:36:49 Incidentally, I call the obsolete Greek characters. 15:36:59 And stigma, heta and sho. 15:37:05 Someone set Euclid's Elements (at least the first book) in Gentium nicely and I will love them forever 15:37:14 Phantom_Hoover: Ah ah ah, I still consider them part of the Greek alphabet 15:37:18 I already called them. BITCH 15:37:21 Aaaalll mine 15:37:23 alise: "The IPA" is grammatically correct, "IPA" alone isn't. 15:37:37 I consider zeta outside the Greek alphabet, then. 15:37:44 Oh, wait. 15:37:46 Deewiant: I don't care, I also consider "ATM machine" acceptable for instance. 15:37:48 I know. 15:37:51 I don't read acronyms as their expansions :P 15:37:56 I call the modern Greek alphabet. 15:38:01 Phantom_Hoover: I already called it. 15:38:03 guys, no one cares about YOUR discussion, just join mine 15:38:04 Just get over it 15:38:08 alise: If you just don't care, then don't consider it "strange" to do it correctly :-P 15:38:20 OK, fine. 15:38:23 actually i don't care about either one -> 15:38:35 I own the constructed scripts, so I can just make up letters. 15:38:51 Deewiant: I believe it perfectly correct to consider acronyms as atomic objects, not their expansions. 15:39:17 Of course. 15:39:26 But "the IPA" isn't strange. 15:39:41 I sometimes read acronyms as their expansions, so I prefer the phrasing to be valid for that as well. 15:39:42 "IPA" is still in need of an article. 15:40:04 alise: what's ATM machine? 15:40:19 Automatic Teller Machine Machine. 15:40:23 okay 15:40:32 Why not just call it an AT machine? 15:40:42 Because it's called an ATM. 15:40:49 You have a totally superfluous syllable. 15:41:05 OK, so why add the machine to the end? 15:41:06 wasn't sure because alternating turing machine machine works too 15:42:08 (i know what the other atm is but i didn't know what it was short for) 15:42:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:43:18 [Quod Libet fails on me] 15:44:35 "Because he/she/it "... I'm not sure what "libet" means. 15:45:21 quodlibet means "what pleases" 15:45:35 usually seen in "ex falso quodlibet", "from falsehood, follows what pleases" 15:45:42 I fail at Latin, I think. 15:45:49 as do I 15:45:53 anyway Quod Libet is just a music player. 15:46:01 I shouldn't fail at it, since I have done EXAMS. 15:46:21 So, guys, I need a suggestion for an audio library thing to play various audio formats programmatically. 15:46:31 Not GStreamer; GObject crap and iirc it's not gapless or something if you play multiple files. 15:46:38 Not Xine; Xine is shit. 15:46:39 Perhaps libvlc? 15:46:42 well if you fail at exams, you fail at the subject, if you pass the exams, either you don't fail at the subjects or the exams fail at the subject 15:46:51 Anyone used it? Apparently ffmpeg has an example that uses SDL to do the actual audio but ffmpeg to decode? 15:47:16 Real programmers don't listen to music. 15:47:31 The hum of the cooling fan is music to their ears. 15:47:38 By "various audio formats" I guess you mean "typical audio formats" 15:47:47 What if they're silent PC obsessives and their cooling fan is inaudible? 15:48:06 Then they enjoy the silence. 15:48:06 Deewiant: FLAC, Vorbis, MP3 (it's okay if you have to enable some silly switch), AAC at least 15:48:23 Aye, so typical. 15:48:30 Yes. 15:48:43 I wish to write a music server, you see. 15:48:52 MPD and XMMS2 have the flaw that I didn't write them. 15:48:55 How does it serve music? 15:49:05 You people and your NIH syndromes. 15:49:33 Expand NIH. 15:49:40 Not Invented Here. 15:49:58 Ah. 15:50:32 Phantom_Hoover: A music server is a server that handles playing various subsets of a collection of music, while clients provide the interface and other functionality. 15:50:46 Ah. 15:50:57 For instance, something that scrobbles played tracks to last.fm would be its own little daemon that connects to the music server, sets up a hook for the NewTrackStartedPlaying event or similar, and sends the info, while another client handles the actual user interaction. 15:51:05 Or you could have a command that works like "music stop", "music skip", etc. 15:51:13 (And Deewiant: yes, I'm aware you should wait until half-way to scrobble a track) 15:51:15 *track.) 15:51:20 Why separate the server and the client if it's for personal use? 15:51:36 You can connect to it from different machines (more) conveniently. 15:51:43 Deewiant: Not for me, that's not my reason. 15:52:09 Greater extensibility: I may want to say "music skip" even if I normally use another client; the Unix philosophy is better, one tool for one job, and this enables it (see e.g. the last.fm client); if I'm going to write something, I should write it correctly, and the GUI should not be bundled with the actual player; 15:52:18 and it allows usage across different desktop environments and so on. 15:52:26 Plus if the GUI app crashes or has some problem it doesn't interrupt your music. 15:53:06 So the server deals with actually getting the music out of the speakers? 15:53:55 The server streams to the client, which gets it out of the speakers. 15:53:58 WTF, OSSv4 devices appear to have disappeared. 15:54:07 Deewiant: Er... no. 15:54:21 Deewiant: Are you sure you know how XMMS2/MPD work? Because it's not like that. 15:54:38 Right, I'm confusing it with shoutcast and whatever. 15:54:59 I know pretty much nothing of how they work. 15:55:05 Phantom_Hoover: The server handles maintaining the collection of the music including parsing out their tags, etc., maintaining playlists -- including, say, ones done programatically based on some tags or whatnot -- and getting out of the speakers. 15:55:15 My suggestion: get an instrument that you can play with your feet. 15:55:33 In turn, clients handle displaying what song is playing, letting the user change the song from a nice list, showing an interface to create and view playlists, setting modes like shuffle, etc., and also non-UI clients handle things like interfacing with last.fm and the like. 15:56:55 You may also benefit from getting an application that automatically scrolls music across the screen. 15:57:08 How on earth has OSS just disappeared... 15:57:09 Then learn to decouple your eyes and multitask. 15:57:18 Phantom_Hoover: Your suggestion is rubbish. 15:57:34 Tada! You can now look like a complete idiot while listening to music. 15:57:41 My issues with music players are mostly the supported file formats, so I don't much know or care about most of the other features. 15:57:46 True, but it must be funny to watch. 15:58:00 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:59:23 Deewiant: Heh, what do you use? MPC? WavPack? ...TAK?! 15:59:42 Wow, you might actually use Musepack. 15:59:47 That's a scary thought. 16:00:10 I have a count from late 2007 here: only one .mpc. 16:00:14 mp3PRO :P 16:00:22 Deewiant: What, then? .mid? 16:00:23 It's mostly modules and the like. 16:00:36 RealAudio? 16:00:37 Right. 16:00:55 I see midis and modules and the like as separate from actual audio wave files, so I don't particularly care about supporting them. 16:01:00 That's fileformatist, sure, but I don't really care. 16:01:00 .mid, .mod, .s3m, .xm, .it, .gbs, .psf, .snd, .sndh, .ay, .gym, .sap, .sid, .mtm, .spc, ... off the top of my head. 16:01:36 Holy shit, they made a new Musepack release. 16:01:38 I want to listen to them, so I don't care what I "see them as", just that they work :-P 16:01:52 Deewiant: It's not like you'd ever use software I wrote, anyway. 16:02:03 It's not like you ever finish anything, anyway. 16:02:09 -!- jabb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:02:53 Deewiant: I'm deeply offended. 16:03:15 -!- softmoon has joined. 16:03:39 02:55:43 ais523: "There exists a function UTM_P: UTM -> P such that interp_P(UTM_P(x)) = UTM(x) for all x" 16:03:39 02:56:10 the function needs to be computable, otherwise you get almost everything 16:03:39 02:56:25 also you may need a postprocessing function as well 16:03:39 yes, true 16:03:43 .ym is hard to find a player for. 16:03:43 I was considering something like 16:03:58 Or easy to find, but it seems a bit random. 16:04:34 interp_P(UTM_P(x)) -out-> {halts_with(o) => interp_UTM(x) == halts_with(UTM_P_post(o)); hangs => hangs } 16:04:35 Or something. 16:04:40 Deewiant: .ym? 16:04:41 Too bad I have around 400 of them. 16:05:26 03:26:38 A police state is a state with police in it. 16:05:26 03:26:43 The only true freedom is anarchy. 16:05:26 03:26:44 :P 16:05:26 03:27:32 Gregor: it is not particularly wise to define police state in such a way that almost all people would prefer to live in one 16:05:26 not "almost all" 16:05:37 .ym is ST-Sound's file format. 16:06:27 Mostly for Atari stuff, AFAIK. 16:06:27 alise: do you mean almost all = all for sensible measures of finite populations 16:06:32 Deewiant: Well, that ... helps 16:06:42 oklopol: no, I'm not a pedantic asshole like that 16:06:49 alise: http://leonard.oxg.free.fr/stsound.html 16:06:49 i'm a different kind of pedantic asshole 16:06:55 oklopol: I just meant that there are quite a few anarchists around. 16:07:01 hell, even in this channel 16:07:11 Deewiant: you're crazy 16:07:26 alise: i know 16:08:03 05:03:41 ....none 16:08:04 05:03:56 .. 16:08:04 05:04:03 * CakeProphet is very tired and baked? 16:08:04 05:09:38 baked? 16:08:04 I THINK HE MIGHT BE REFERRING TO DRUGS 16:08:42 alise: I listen to esoteric stuff :-P 16:09:23 -!- softmoon has left (?). 16:09:26 so phantom hoover is a hoover that's also a phantom, and cake prophet is a cake that's also a prophet, have i somehow seriously misunderstood how compounds are usually constructed 16:09:29 Or at least, have some esoteric stuff that I want to be able to listen to on demand. 16:10:21 So, anyone ever used libvlc? 16:11:08 * alise uninstalls OSS, returns to ALSA in despair 16:15:11 Deewiant: Back when I was a DOSist, I used to use Cubic Player, because of the Würfel Mode. 16:15:28 Würfel mode? 16:15:42 I don't remember what it was like, just the name. 16:15:46 heh 16:16:00 http://www.cubic.org/player/features.html "the only software on earth featuring Würfel Mode" 16:16:00 Something has gone awfully wrong. 16:16:05 Sound is... refusing to work. 16:16:13 Doesn't handle much; just the common mod formats, MIDI, and SID. 16:16:27 Oh, that feature list is a bit bigger than the one I was looking at. 16:16:45 Well, still not that much. 16:17:00 No, but I didn't/don't have very esoteric files. 16:17:21 There's no screenshot of Würfel Mode either. But it supported all VESA text modes, and I think my Matrox Mystique 220 card offered quite many of those. 16:17:22 My current plan is to go for http://xmp.sourceforge.net/ at some point. 16:19:43 oklopol: The "phantom" is an adjective. 16:19:54 While "cake" is not an adjective. 16:21:57 Deewiant: During a brief Windows time, I also used http://www.exotica.org.uk/wiki/DeliPlayer for a while -- it has a reasonably large format support, but I guess it's pretty dead and was windows-only anyway. 16:22:52 I might use that for the Amiga stuff if it were non-Windows. 16:25:43 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:25:58 There's that http://zakalwe.fi/uade/ too. 16:26:17 Zakalwe.fi? 16:26:20 Culture fans? 16:26:36 Yep. 16:28:21 -!- alise has joined. 16:28:27 I am unable to get sound working 16:30:31 Deewiant: Should I just install Arch? And why am I asking an Arch fanboy this? 16:31:42 Use Movitz. 16:32:01 You can feel superior to everyone. 16:32:10 Apart from Scheme users. 16:32:16 Or Reduceron users. 16:32:41 What machine-level Scheme implementation is there? 16:32:48 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:33:03 Your mom's 16:33:46 That makes no sense in this context. 16:33:54 Precisely 16:35:10 Actually, there is Schemix. 16:35:17 Use that. 16:35:35 I had plans for a Scheme OS once. Was going to use someone's little x86-sexp-assembler written in Scheme. 16:35:41 Was going to be called X-Scheme or something. 16:36:14 And it fell by the wayside, like so many of our dreams? 16:36:27 Yes. 16:36:44 Glad that I'm not the only one. 16:39:04 Also, I need to go on an epic journey across Scotland and over the Irish sea in about 10 minutes, for "work" "experience". 16:39:12 I MAY NOT RETURN. 16:40:40 alise: Hey, "fanboy" is a bit strong. 16:40:58 fizzie: Thanks for that UADE thing; I don't think I knew about that, before. 16:41:14 Deewiant: Fanboy isn't a very strong word :P 16:41:20 Fun fact: I have a NASA t-shirt with what seem like blatant mathematical errors on it.. 16:41:20 Deewiant: And you didn't answer my question! 16:41:31 Phantom_Hoover: your mother is a blatant mathematical error LOL LOL 16:41:39 Please tell me if your mother is actually dead that causes a lot of awkwardness for me here 16:42:02 How often does that happen? 16:42:19 Well, I know of two in here who talk a lot who fit that bill. 16:42:31 No, my mother is not dead. 16:43:12 Good to know! 16:43:16 Your mom is so fat she DIED. 16:43:22 "Yet!" 16:43:44 YOUR MOTHER IS SUCH A FAT WHORE, SHE DIED OF A PENIS INFECTION. ALSO, OBESITY. 16:43:45 fungot! 16:43:46 Phantom_Hoover: luxy has an abcd! krob! krob! krob! krob! 16:44:00 What style is he on...? 16:44:04 ^STYLE 16:44:06 ^style 16:44:07 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 16:44:14 fungot: luxy has an abcd! krob! 16:44:15 alise: plus one exception to that.) the service book. 16:44:24 * Phantom_Hoover hastily reads remaining webcomics from today 16:44:51 `addquote pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. [...] 16:44:52 alise: ( .)y(.) bbl. going to use apple hw then indents the s-expression following that. they are even more limited pre-scheme. 16:44:53 170| pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. [...] 16:44:57 `addquote alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia 16:44:58 alise: most people slow down while driving by accidents, most of which are themselves lists, then party on. 16:45:00 171| alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia 16:45:04 `addquote AnMaster: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions 16:45:05 alise: standardizing on s-r _only_? surely someone must have cancelled. too bad it died ( or so it seemed. 16:45:07 172| AnMaster: intercal-72 c-intercal clc-intercal j-intercal yes all versions all versions 16:45:08 Filling in the fungot-quote backlog :P 16:45:19 `addquote AnMaster: to any airbus plane. 3 passengers sadly died the most awesome thing ever. 16:45:21 fungquote! 16:45:21 173| AnMaster: to any airbus plane. 3 passengers sadly died the most awesome thing ever. 16:45:39 He's sometimes a bit inconsiderate. 16:45:45 `addquote [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine 16:45:48 174| [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine 16:47:09 `addquote alise, marble marbelus 16:47:13 175| alise, marble marbelus 16:47:18 These are a bit chronologically distorted, but who cares 16:47:25 `addquote cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other. 16:47:28 176| cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other. 16:47:29 (coppro tried to quote that, not me) 16:47:48 alise: I figured that by calling me a fanboy you'd guessed my answer already 16:47:57 Deewiant: MAYBE I'M WRONG. 16:48:20 You probably aren't 16:48:59 Deewiant: Tell me, I can't take it any longer! 16:49:33 Yes, go ahead and install Arch, it'll make life easier :-P 16:50:12 Deewiant: Issue; my mother uses this computer sometimes. 16:50:35 So even better!! 16:50:49 You don't have to put up with parental invasion. 16:51:44 YES, but, this is the only half-shared computer 16:52:40 So, why are you caring about whether stuff works on that one ;-P 16:52:51 It's the only one unpacked and plugged in atm. 16:54:08 I have to go now AND I MAY NOT RETURN. 16:54:10 EVER. 16:54:13 AGAIN. 16:54:20 See ya 16:54:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:54:57 Deewiant: I need life advice ;_; like an antelope 16:57:27 Suggestion: get sound working 16:57:53 Deewiant: Tried & failed. 16:57:56 The mixer is just ... not there 16:58:17 Ask on # 16:58:42 Deewiant: Have you ever been in #ubuntu? 16:58:46 No? Count yourself lucky. 16:58:46 Nope 16:59:06 You repeat something fifty times, and still nobody's actual question is answered. 16:59:11 Just tiny irrelevant ones that aren't even vaguely technical. 16:59:20 (If you just say it ONE time, then it disappears into the backlog in about 2 seconds.) 17:03:55 Deewiant: Which is probably a reason to switch to Arch, really. 17:04:02 :-) 17:04:59 Yes, go ahead and install Arch, it'll make life easier :-P <-- but you have to edit some text config files at least once. I'm not sure alise is that type 17:05:19 Hey, I am perfectly capable of editing textual configuration files. 17:05:20 well I'm sure he could do it, but I also suspect he wouldn't like it 17:05:29 alise, yes but you don't want to, right? 17:05:51 It's not my fault that "Linuxtarded just-make-it-work idiot" and "incredibly ultra-genius visionary post-configuration post-object-oriented metasystem enthusiast" are so easily confusable when presented with Linux :-P 17:06:05 (Not just genius, INCREDIBLY ULTRA-genius) 17:06:26 alise, because at end of install you will get a menu to edit some system config files, you probably need to set time zone and a few misc things at least. Oh and you need to add the init scripts to start by using a config file that lists them, In the order you want XD 17:07:14 I've installed Arch before. 17:07:23 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:07:30 there are two things that annoys me with arch linux: 1) init script system is rather limited 2) no debug symbol packages (yet, and this has been planed for a looong time) 17:07:32 The bit I don't like is that configuration thing that you have to re-combine the kernel or whatever to take effect. 17:07:35 It has modules and stuff in it. 17:07:41 I can never decide what to put in it first time! 17:07:46 alise, you mean re-generate initramfs? 17:07:50 yeah 17:08:04 alise, ubuntu does that too. 17:08:10 (1) doesn't bother me, my init needs are very minimal and (2) so how do you debug programs effectively? 17:09:02 (2) only applies if you're debugging a system library 17:09:11 right 17:09:12 Maybe if you don't like it, change it? 17:09:13 alise, well, (2) by building a custom glibc that installs debug symbols, that is what I need for my debugging currently. Don't really need debug symbols for all the other stuff 17:09:34 Well, my only problem with Arch is that (1) it sucks, like all software and (2) I don't think my mother would appreciate using it 17:09:35 Deewiant, debug symbols for glibc is increadibly useful for any debugging. 17:09:44 incredibly* 17:09:48 If you say so 17:09:59 I've yet to even feel the need for debuggers typically :-P 17:10:14 alise: (1) doesn't really count 17:10:27 Deewiant, yesterday I tried another one, debugging over IR. Embedded systems are quite interesting to debug sometimes... 17:10:29 Well, it sucks to initially set up moreso than Ubuntu, then 17:10:37 basically printf but sending messages over ir 17:10:50 however, it turned out to solve the issue, due to the extra delay that printf over IR caused XD 17:11:23 oh to hell with it, I'll just buy my mother a portable solitaire device 17:11:29 alise, I'm quite sure your DAEMONS array will be nothing like mine, but in case it helps: 17:11:36 DAEMONS=(syslog-ng @sensors @gpm @smartd @alsa network @iptables @ntpd @aiccu @sshd @hal crond @ddclient @ip6tables @denyhosts @postfix @mdadm @cpufreq) 17:11:38 actually, maybe I'll just get her an iPad, it would satisfy like 110% of everything she wants to do with a computer :-P 17:11:48 it has solitaire, email, and the web 17:11:52 I have been on #ubuntu channel, but only for one thing, to ask about autorun DVDs in Ubuntu, so that I can do Quality Control testing. (Please note all the computers already have Ubuntu installed (it has nothing to do with me), I just needed to add a program.) 17:11:55 alise, she = ? 17:11:58 AnMaster: @ = not? 17:12:00 AnMaster: she = mother 17:12:04 this is the semi-shared computer 17:12:19 DAEMONS=(syslog-ng fix-mtrr @network @irqbalance !netfs @crond arch32 @alsa @hal @cups @sshd @openntpd @inadyn) 17:13:01 Could actually remove that !netfs 17:13:02 alise, @ = "in background" 17:13:23 But ALSA is lame :< 17:13:36 AnMaster: I thought you hated HAL? 17:13:44 I wonder if that even does anything for me 17:13:48 Probably not 17:13:56 Why not load syslog-ng in background :P 17:14:09 alise, yes but things doesn't work without it 17:14:21 I never read system logs anyway :D 17:14:24 I'll make it !alsa for now 17:14:25 alise, as for syslog-ng, I don't want to miss out on early errors 17:14:29 in case stuff goes wrong 17:14:34 Deewiant: heh; what do you use instead of alsa? 17:14:39 Pulse 17:14:39 ossv3? :-D 17:14:40 Deewiant, doesn't alsa just restore mixer levels? 17:14:42 Deewiant: Erm... 17:14:43 iirc 17:14:46 Deewiant: Pulse uses ALSA. 17:14:50 Deewiant: It's a layer over ALSA. 17:14:52 Deewiant: Or OSS, I think. 17:14:57 It's a layer over a million things 17:15:03 Deewiant: What do you layer it over then...? 17:15:03 But yes, that just restores the mixer levels 17:15:13 I don't know, whatever it does by default I guess 17:15:16 Probably ALSA 17:15:17 Methinks I'll use pekwm 17:15:22 Plus gnome-tray or something 17:15:26 Well, gnome-panel 17:15:37 Or maybe XFCE's panel 17:16:13 Deewiant, you probably want alsa there then. Since otherwise channels start all muted iirc 17:16:34 THE POWAH OF OSSV4 17:16:49 AnMaster: I just stopped alsa and sound still works 17:17:41 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:17:42 Deewiant, stop != start 17:17:57 Err... yes? 17:17:58 stop just saves mixer levels to a file 17:18:03 start just loads them 17:18:08 afaik stop doesn't mute channels 17:18:24 Oh, so it doesn't, by default 17:19:13 Right, so it is necessary. 17:20:44 Deewiant, it isn't like it hogs system resources or anything 17:21:00 That doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed 17:21:18 Deewiant, it should be removed if you aren't using ALSA, but probably not otherwise 17:21:27 Exactly 17:21:34 unless you like messing with mixer controls at every boot 17:23:51 17:24:18 17:27:54 Which card games do you play? 17:30:08 Not many. 17:31:10 -!- lament has joined. 17:34:34 AnMaster: what options are good to enable on a filesystem again? noatime, what else? 17:34:46 nodiratime 17:34:52 ?? Doesn't noatime do that? 17:34:58 Dunno 17:35:07 * alise considers using JFS 17:35:13 Does Arch support JFS out of the box, I wonder? 17:35:33 JFS is <3 17:35:45 You mean the standard kernel in the core repository? Dunno. 17:35:56 Fast and reliable like XFS, "fsck" takes 2 seconds if there's an error and <1s if there's none, error recovery is very good, ... 17:36:22 Huh, apparently it's actually <1s for system failure, not 2s 17:36:48 "The JFS driver is built as a module in the standard Arch kernel packages." 17:37:01 So I just have to add "jfs" to one of those file things, right? 17:37:12 "one of those file things" :D 17:37:23 If you are using a generic Arch package for your kernel, you can simply append elevator=deadline to the kernel line in your /boot/grub/menu.lst The kernel entry would look something like: 17:37:24 noted 17:37:38 It is also possible to enable the Deadline I/O scheduler for specific devices by invoking the following command: 17:37:39 echo deadline > /sys/block/sda/queue/scheduler 17:37:40 doubly noted 17:38:14 That better than CFQ? 17:39:42 For JFS, yes. 17:39:47 Are you using JFS? 17:39:55 JFS+deadline outperforms all other Linux filesystems, IIRC. 17:39:55 Nope. 17:40:07 Then just keep using whatever. 17:40:25 Do you play? Bridge? Hearts? Poker? Solitaire? Gin Rummy? Pokemon Card? Tarot Card? 17:40:31 Hells yeah, Brain Fuck Scheduler is in AUR 17:40:37 zzo38: Solitaire is actually called Klondike. 17:40:40 I don't play any card game actively 17:41:01 alise: I meant solitaire games in general, I didn't mean Klondike solitaire specifically 17:41:06 Ah. 17:41:20 Tarot isn't a game, just a silly waste of time :-) 17:42:14 No, it is actually just a deck of cards. There are many kind of games that are played with them, however. (Most are trick-taking types, which were what tarot cards originally designed for; but now you can also play Gnostics (which also requires Icehouse pieces as well)) 17:43:13 Ah, I didn't realise. 17:44:50 Now, if I could make a deck like http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/screen/spider-tarot-cardset.png but larger and for printing, with numbers in both corners, and a book to go with it (describing various games (both soitaire and multiplayer), also possibly with a very brief appendix about "interpretations" of the "meanings" of cards and so on) 17:45:22 This is my preferred tarot deck although the one in the picture is only suitable for computer game 17:45:25 http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=32877 ;; con kolivas patchset kernel 17:46:10 I also like Uncarrot Tarot but it is not available anywhere and not compatible with standard tarot. Spider tarot is compatible with normal tarot, so the standard trick taking games can still be played with them. 17:46:21 Deewiant: https://lwn.net/Articles/244941/ noatime => nodiratime 17:47:32 (The problem is if the majors have to be given names, which is used in Gnostica (but you could just write down which number has which effect) 17:48:09 Do you like this deck? 17:48:18 Time to reboot, then. 17:48:41 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:48:56 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:50:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:51:43 I think I found another bug in ngIRCd, it doesn't log QUIT messages! 18:00:33 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:20:41 -!- kalise has joined. 18:20:49 fucking fuck fuck fucker fuckity 18:20:52 -!- kalise has changed nick to alise. 18:20:55 THE ARCH IS NO 18:21:07 It was doing its mkcpio thing after I configured it when I accidentally ^C'd the installer 18:21:13 Now it wants me to do it all over again just to do that part 18:21:23 Deewiant: AnMaster: HALP 18:21:45 So do it all over again. 18:21:53 Deewiant: But that's completely pointless, and slow. 18:22:03 So is accidentally ^C'ing stuff in the middle of installation. 18:22:14 I was trying to cancel one particular step. 18:22:16 ESC didn't work. 18:22:53 You don't have much of a choice here AFAIK :-P 18:23:08 Install manually or do it again. 18:23:22 Now it says that the filesystem is busy, ha ha ha 18:23:43 umount doesn't work. ha ha ha. 18:23:47 It says it's busy too; ha ha ha. 18:24:04 fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 18:24:39 umount -f -l /dev/sdb1 18:24:41 >:3 18:24:56 Maybe start with fuser/lsof :-P 18:25:44 Why does it complain about having no separate /boot? 18:25:47 This is, like, 2012. 18:26:00 I dunno. I have a separate /boot. 18:26:03 Why? 18:26:16 LVM or sth? 18:26:27 So that I can't accidentally overwrite my grub.conf or kernel. 18:26:35 Other things I'm going to have to figure out before I reboot this thing: lilo! 18:26:44 grub technically can boot jfs but it's very unrecommended 18:26:47 so... lilo 18:27:09 lilo totally gets a bad rep :))) 18:27:18 Or... a separate /boot with a more palatable fs ;-P 18:27:28 JFS is perfectly palatable. And I don't like GRUB anyway. 18:27:33 Nothing wrong with lilo. 18:27:38 It's not the lilo that was around in the 90s :P 18:27:39 Palatable to GRUB, I obviously meant. 18:27:47 But yeah, doesn't matter. 18:27:53 "Oh no, I have to run lilo(1) when I update my kernel!" 18:28:09 arch installs sysvinit by default -- have they abandoned the bsd style init?! 18:28:16 Say it ain't so! 18:30:18 * alise uses /dev/sd[a-z][0-9]+ identifiers in fstab cuz he's a rebel 18:30:27 *she's; stupid self-inflicted nick pronouns 18:31:12 Anyone in here used pekwm? 18:32:45 I forgot how cool xdm is 18:33:29 what the heck is netfs anyway 18:36:20 * alise considers using xfwm 18:37:29 -!- lament has joined. 18:38:14 alas, i lament lament, a last lament, alas 18:38:58 alas, I lament, I lament lament, I lament, alas <-- palindrome 18:39:06 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 18:39:29 CakeProphet prophesises cakes 18:40:49 krade'tmar 18:41:27 t'keprophea'c 18:41:50 Deewiant: thanks for the helpful advice, it just installed the packages then failed and quit again 18:42:02 because it couldn't umount /mnt/proc which was apparently mounted 18:42:07 so i have to do it ALL. OVER. AGAIN 18:42:14 oasijfsgsoyshjhiohjhjopjoisjgirg 18:42:46 YH8998982Y3892Y321873Y12983Y89213Y98213 18:42:49 well time to reboot. 18:42:57 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 18:47:10 Deewiant: AnMaster: HALP <-- ? 18:48:27 bbl 18:59:52 -!- Oranjer has joined. 19:05:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:07:39 03:53:45 --- quit: oerjan (Quit: Later) 19:07:46 03:56:02 "hey wasn't it pretty lol when oerjan left" 19:08:16 alise: thanks for adding that quote 19:08:18 well if you find that quit message hilarious... 19:08:36 perhaps it means something funny in finnish 19:09:05 Baah, why is no-one interested in the TreeVM? 19:09:21 it's not really a very new idea 19:10:05 also, that is our _normal_ reaction to 90% of new esolangs. 19:11:33 although that may be because 90% of esolangs are just machine codes with slightly eclectic instruction sets 19:20:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 19:27:45 I wonder why Reduce[d == Norm[{a - b, c - d} + t*{v - u, x - y}], {t}] makes mathematica lock up 19:31:49 somewhat obvious, but I had to check: it begins to load in wolfram alpha, but then stops 19:31:58 never seen that before 19:38:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:39:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:41:17 Oranjer, I presume they kill queries after some fixed time limit 19:57:49 -!- jabb has joined. 19:57:57 :O 20:07:00 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 20:41:16 -!- tombom has joined. 20:58:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:05:31 Why does the HELP command in ngIRCd send ERR_NORECIPIENT_MSG if you put too many arguments? 21:06:06 i guess it just likes to argue. 21:06:59 what happens if you put your nick as the extra argument? 21:07:05 But shouldn't it be ERR_NEEDMOREPARAMS_MSG instead? Most commands do that if you put the wrong number of arguments 21:07:30 or perhaps as the first argument 21:07:36 oerjan: The same error. It sends that error if there are any arguments at all. (If there are no arguments, it lists the valid commands) 21:07:45 if( Req->argc > 0 ) return IRC_WriteStrClient( Client, ERR_NORECIPIENT_MSG, Client_ID( Client ), Req->command ); 21:07:49 oh 21:08:38 well, ERR_NEEDMOREPARAMS_MSG seems like it should only be used if you use too _few_ arguments 21:08:44 by the name 21:09:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:09:30 and most commands that take an argument take the recipient as the first one, so saying that it takes no recipient makes sort of sense 21:09:32 It does sound like it, but maybe in IRC it is the same message number 21:09:33 (iirc) 21:11:08 #define ERR_NORECIPIENT_MSG "411 %s :No recipient given (%s)" 21:11:18 huh 21:11:29 well that does sound wrong then 21:11:40 -!- alise has joined. 21:12:42 Anyways: I am adding in an additional function to the HELP command, which is that if it has exactly one argument, it will send a help topic message to the client. (With no arguments it will just list the valid commands the same way it already does) 21:12:45 [rejoins after being gone for a while, having previously had a long discussion about how to fix Xorg config] I don't suppose anyone has any more ideas, I tried everything before [etc.] [link to stupid "HOW TO ASK QUESTIONS ON IRC" guide] nazi: I was just asking the few people who'd talked about it before 21:12:55 That's not how it works What's not how what works? 21:13:04 Blah blah blah you must ask full detailed questions with output blah blah blah 21:13:09 IRC support sucks. 21:14:06 If you want proper support, consider Red Hat :-P 21:14:11 Deewiant: I don't suppose you use any PS/2 devices? 21:14:19 Sure, a keyboard. 21:14:24 Deewiant: HOW THE FUCK DO YOU MAKE X11 LIKE IT. 21:14:31 Magic? 21:14:35 I've tried evdev, non-evdev, every fucking thing, it only worked once and I was unable to reproduce it. 21:14:38 Didn't have to twiddle anything. 21:14:41 What the hell kind of magical settings do you have? 21:14:44 Oh, so no xorg.conf. 21:14:48 If only I were so lucky. 21:14:57 I do have a xorg.conf but it doesn't have my keyboard settings. 21:16:57 Do you have a ServerLayout section? 21:17:08 Probably. 21:17:24 I'm pretty sure I have all the graphics-related stuff there. 21:18:10 So you have InputDevice lines in that ServerLayout section, then? 21:18:25 No, I'm pretty sure I don't. 21:18:26 Aww, the Finnish word "pointti" is so cute! 21:18:41 Deewiant: Then... that cannot possibly work 21:18:58 `ls bin 21:18:59 Magic, like I said. :-P 21:19:00 ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram 21:19:13 `translatefromto fi en pointti 21:19:16 No output. 21:19:21 :( 21:19:43 oerjan: Colloquial loanword: "point" as in meaning 21:19:50 ah 21:20:03 alise: HAL does the stuff. 21:20:07 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:20:29 no:poeng, probably 21:21:12 Kaj said, "So I blogged (in Finnish) about people who want age limits on books. Somehow the comments section of this post managed to become a debate on climate change. Go figure." 21:21:46 Then Mauno said, "Jis eivät ryhtyneet maahanmuutosta väittelemään, on se jo saavutus," and Kaj said, ":D Pointti." 21:22:24 That's an extreme anglicism :-P 21:23:24 Now, what does what Mauno said mean? 21:23:34 s/Jis/Jos/ 21:23:53 My mistake. 21:24:02 `swedish Jos eivät ryhtyneet maahanmuutosta väittelemään, on se jo saavutus. 21:24:04 Jus ieefät ryhtyneet meehunmooootusta fäittelemään, oon se-a ju seefootoos. \ Bork Bork Bork! 21:24:27 "If they didn't start debating immigration, that's already an achievement" 21:24:36 Ah. :) 21:25:46 -!- chuck has joined. 21:27:46 Is there any documentation what the HackEgo commands do? (Usually I just always get "No output." regardless of anything) 21:29:07 `cat bin/creatures 21:29:08 #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Look up what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/'"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 100 'Jump to:' | \ tail -n +3 | \ sed 's/ */ /g' 21:29:11 Voila. :P 21:29:30 Ask me and I can probably tell you. 21:29:55 uorygl: My question is all of them! 21:30:00 Okay. 21:30:05 `ls bin 21:30:06 ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram 21:30:19 Is there a FTP session for these files? 21:30:33 `cat bin/calc 21:30:34 I don't know what ? does, addquote adds a quote to the quotes database, calc tells Google to calculate something, commands probably does the same thing as ls bin, creatures looks something up on the Creatures Wiki... 21:30:34 #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Calculate what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q='"$QUERY" | \ grep -m 1 '=' | sed 's/ \+/ /g' 21:30:43 `commands 21:30:45 ?, addquote, calc, commands, creatures, define, esolang, etymology, fortune, \ google, helpme, imdb, karma, marco, minifind, paste, ping, quote, rec, roll, \ runfor, sayhi, strfile, swedish, toutf8, translate, translatefromto, \ translateto, unstr, url, wolfram 21:30:51 `? 21:30:52 I like big butts and I cannot lie. You other brothers can not deny that when a girl comes in with an itty bitty waist and a round thing in your face, you get sprung. 21:30:53 zzo38: note that HackEgo has been buggy for many days until today 21:31:05 `cat bin/? 21:31:07 #!/bin/sh \ cd `dirname "$0"` \ cat ../help.txt 21:31:15 define looks up the definition of something somewhere, esolang looks something up on Esolang, etymology looks something up in the Online Etymology Dictionary, fortune... probably gives you a fortune cookie or something... 21:31:19 `fortune 21:31:21 Save gas, don't eat beans. 21:32:01 google does a Google search, helpme presumably does just that, imdb looks something up on IMDB, karma doesn't do much, I'm betting marco causes it to say "Polo", I don't know what minifind does, I think paste links to a pastebin... 21:32:06 `paste 21:32:07 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1595 21:32:20 `calc 2+2 21:32:22 No output. 21:32:32 Evidently `calc doesn't actually work. 21:32:33 `ls bin 21:32:35 ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram 21:32:38 `ping 21:32:39 pong 21:32:43 O, that is why it is broken 21:32:44 and the google lookup commands are probably all broken now :( 21:33:11 zzo38: um what? 21:33:14 I thought I just entered the command wrong 21:33:16 ping does that, quote gives you a random quote from the quotes file, I don't know what rec does, roll maybe rolls a die, I don't know what runfor does, sayhi is probably like marco and ping, I don't know what strfile does... 21:33:37 `google test 21:33:38 No output. 21:33:57 swedish translates something into mock Swedish, toutf8 translates some character encoding to UTF-8, translate and its brethren do nothing, I don't know what unstr does, I don't know what url does, wolfram looks something up on Wolfram Alpha. 21:34:02 `roll 1d6 21:34:04 1 21:34:12 `cat bin/roll 21:34:14 #!/bin/bash \ rolls="$*" \ if [ "$rolls" = "" ] ; then rolls="1d6" ; fi \ \ for i in $rolls \ do \ if expr "$i" : ".*[dD].*" >& /dev/null \ then \ rollc=`echo "$i" | sed 's/[dD].*//'` \ diesz=`echo "$i" | sed 's/.*[dD]//'` \ else \ rollc=1 \ diesz="$i" \ fi \ \ roll=0 21:34:18 zzo38: calc, google and translate* used to work via google lookup 21:34:26 `roll 1000d6 21:34:28 3556 21:34:29 `roll 1d6+2 21:34:30 7 21:34:33 `roll 1000000d6 21:34:34 -!- ws has joined. 21:34:47 `roll 1d6*2 21:34:48 but presumably it broke in one of google's redesigns 21:34:48 11 21:34:52 `roll 1d6-2 21:34:53 1 21:35:11 Heh, 1d6*2 rolled an odd number. 21:35:37 Yeah, dunno what it did there :-P 21:35:43 `roll 1000d6 21:35:45 3484 21:35:46 `roll 1000d6 21:35:48 3536 21:35:53 `roll 1000d6-2 21:35:55 2455 21:35:57 3497977 21:36:01 It's rolling a (6-2)-sided die. 21:36:09 Oh, it finally finished rolling 1000000d6. :P 21:36:11 Gah 21:36:17 `roll (1d6)+2 21:36:18 0 21:36:21 >_< 21:36:25 Great. :P 21:36:35 `cat bin/roll 21:36:37 #!/bin/bash \ rolls="$*" \ if [ "$rolls" = "" ] ; then rolls="1d6" ; fi \ \ for i in $rolls \ do \ if expr "$i" : ".*[dD].*" >& /dev/null \ then \ rollc=`echo "$i" | sed 's/[dD].*//'` \ diesz=`echo "$i" | sed 's/.*[dD]//'` \ else \ rollc=1 \ diesz="$i" \ fi \ \ roll=0 21:36:49 Great that it supports +-* but not in any useful way :-P 21:38:45 -!- impomatic has joined. 21:45:13 -!- Oranjer has joined. 21:48:01 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:49:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:56:30 -!- augur has joined. 22:06:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:16:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:16:15 -!- augur has joined. 22:18:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:18:50 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 22:26:52 -!- alise has joined. 22:26:57 It's working now. 22:27:04 OOH 22:27:08 * alise wonders whether to use XFCE, or to roll his own with pekwm + some panel 22:27:11 I REQUIRE OPINIONS 22:27:34 USE XFCE IT HAS MORE CAPS 22:28:06 it's actually Xfce 22:28:16 oh. boring. 22:29:25 xfce works fine but it's a bit... bloated and boring 22:29:50 * oerjan wonders if he should point out he has no clue, in case that weren't obvious 22:30:02 I'm waiting for someone else to talk :-) 22:30:13 good, good 22:31:59 zzo38: what's your opinion? 22:32:52 I'd give you an opinion, but I'm usually devoid of opinions 22:33:15 Hm, here's one: freeallegiance.org is a good game, even though it's Windows-only and has DRM-esque stuff 22:35:43 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 22:35:50 I cannot decide! 22:36:05 `roll 1d2 22:36:07 1 22:36:14 you didn't tell me what they represented! 22:36:19 darn 22:36:22 1 = roll my own 22:36:24 2 = use xfce 22:36:26 `roll 1d2 22:36:27 2 22:36:29 NO! 22:36:32 `roll 1d2 22:36:34 1 22:36:35 Okay! 22:36:45 It's a surprisigly good way to figure out what you want to do 22:36:53 roll your own, cursed by fate 22:36:57 Especially when you've already made your decision 22:37:00 roll a die for it; if you get a result and think "No!", you want the opposite 22:37:08 Deewiant: but sometimes I can't analyse myself to figure out which decision I really want 22:37:16 so I rely on the instinctive bad reaction to the choice I don't want to figure it out 22:37:21 Can't you just roll a hypothetical die instead? 22:37:32 no, for some reason that doesn't work because i know what i'm trying to do or something 22:37:42 1 = LambdaMOO 2=M*U*S*H 22:37:45 `roll 1d2 22:37:46 2 22:37:50 `roll 50d50 22:37:51 1431 22:37:52 No, I like coding LambdaMOO 22:37:54 didn't oklopol say something about this dice-rolling trick 22:37:55 `roll 1d1 22:37:56 1 22:37:57 `roll 1d1 22:37:57 `roll 1d2 22:37:59 2 22:38:01 `roll 2d1 22:38:03 ?? 22:38:03 2 22:38:04 `roll 2d1 22:38:06 2 22:38:07 xD 22:38:13 1 22:38:18 `roll 1000d2 22:38:19 1500 22:38:19 HackEgo is slow 22:38:20 `roll 1000d2 22:38:22 1513 22:38:25 `roll 1d0 22:38:26 No output. 22:38:36 * alise purges xfce. 22:38:36 `roll 0d1 22:38:37 0 22:38:38 purges I say! 22:38:39 mwahahahaha 22:38:50 i'd ask Deewiant for yet another one of his perfect opinions but he uses openbox or something 22:38:54 which i cannot forgive 22:38:59 `roll 1d-1 22:39:00 1 22:39:01 `roll 1d-1 22:39:02 1 22:39:04 `roll 1d-2 22:39:05 2 22:39:06 `roll 1d-2 22:39:07 aw 22:39:07 1 22:39:10 `roll 1d3 1d3 22:39:12 2 3 22:39:15 HackEgo probably doesn't use the cheat for large number of rolls that lambdabot uses 22:39:32 alise: I like that my opinions are perfect but unforgivable 22:39:33 `roll 8d2 1d256 22:39:34 11 65 22:39:35 (approximate with normal distribution) 22:39:35 oerjan: what cheat? 22:39:43 Deewiant: well your opinion on this matter (desktops) definitely is 22:39:51 `roll 8d2 1d256 22:39:53 12 105 22:39:54 `roll 8d2 1d256 22:39:56 12 226 22:39:57 (approximate with normal distribution) 22:39:59 wait it adds 22:40:07 `roll 50d2 1d100 22:40:08 73 59 22:40:12 `roll 50d2 1d100 22:40:13 78 70 22:40:14 `roll 50d2 1d100 22:40:16 80 48 22:40:17 `roll 50d2 1d100 22:40:18 82 10 22:40:21 `roll 50d2 1d100 22:40:22 73 21 22:40:24 `quote 22:40:26 144| it can be a good fursuit, but the good thing is that nobody can complain a fox doesn't have the right skin tone 22:40:29 `quote 22:40:31 No output. 22:40:32 `quote 22:40:37 uh - oh 22:40:39 No output. 22:40:40 Gregor!! 22:40:45 I broke it again 22:40:53 in pursuit of a fursuit 22:41:05 forsooth 22:41:07 fusuit of a fursuit: futile pursuit of a fursuit 22:41:33 so guys 22:41:34 wth is fusuit 22:41:37 window managers eh 22:41:40 oerjan: futile pursuit, duh! 22:41:45 ah 22:41:47 Openbox eh 22:41:57 I AM ASKING GUYS (WHICH IS YOU IF YOU IS NOT DEEWIANT) WHICH IS GOOD WINDOW MANAGER 22:42:14 ALSO NOT PIKHQ, HE'LL SUGGEST RAT POISON WHICH IS _BARBARIC_ 22:42:26 Barbaric? 22:42:32 KILLING RATS! 22:42:49 I'D USE http://www.jfc.org.uk/software/lwm.html, BUT LAST TIME I USED IT I REALISED I WASN'T HARDCORE ENOUGH TO USE IT 22:42:55 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:42:55 Like opening boxes? 22:43:11 YES, OPENING BOXES IS BASICALLY TANTAMOUNT TO GENOCIDE 22:43:22 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 22:43:28 alise, kwm 22:43:36 Kernel window manager? 22:43:41 What haven't they got in the kernel these days, eh?! 22:43:50 KDE? 22:43:51 I've never heard of kwm 22:44:00 no, that's kwin 22:44:02 * Sgeo_ meant whatever KDE uses 22:44:13 Googling KWM gives KDE-related results 22:44:21 kde has the disadvantage that kde sucks 22:44:27 * oerjan mentions xmonad just to find out why alise hates it 22:44:38 Because of people like me that assume that it should be kwm? 22:44:38 oerjan: the recompile-to-configure thing is stupid 22:44:48 and the actual haskell configuration part is stupid, it's not written very well 22:44:51 and i don't like tiling managers 22:44:53 http://wiki.debian.org/WindowManager calls it "KWin / Kwm" 22:44:57 and it's basically like a bloated, haskell version of dwm 22:46:22 ffff///////// 22:47:29 http://karmen.sourceforge.net/karmen-0.13-640x480.png reminds me os Mac OS 22:47:34 whoa -- that guy uses ed 22:47:35 that's impressive 22:47:54 Probably just for the screenshot ;-) 22:48:05 no, people like that tend to use ed 22:48:12 the uber-minimalist plan 9 folks 22:48:23 quite commendable in its insanity really 22:48:25 People actually /use/ it? 22:48:35 yes 22:48:51 ken thompson &co obviously used it for a long time, i think ken is using sam now though which is basically ed with a view of the file 22:48:55 I mean, I can understand using it on a terminal connected to something via a 300 baud modem, but sheesh 22:49:08 and several other folk used it 22:49:23 Deewiant: well ... it's not actually all that bad 22:49:43 i mean, it's very similar to ex, which is just the : vi commands... 22:49:52 so if you're good at using its commands to /view/ stuff you're set 22:50:08 I just think that "view of the file" is fairly crucial 22:50:31 Yes, well. We will never truly understand the enlightenment attained by those who code in merely ed. 22:50:37 I've used TECO before; that was fun. 22:50:43 Actually not so bad once you figure it out. 22:52:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:53:05 "Armed with these certainties, therefore, I embarked upon a spiritualist quest to write the perfect window manager. It has a lot of faults - more faults than features, probably - but goddammit the faults are perfect too. 22:53:09 " 22:53:14 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431]). 22:53:17 "Addendum: This page, and wm2 itself, were written in 1996. Other window managers are better now than they were then, and I'm older and less zealous." 22:53:34 s/too\.\n"/too."/ 22:53:37 :-) 22:54:02 By the author of Rosegarden, it seems. 22:55:32 Deewiant: What's that awesome pacman replacement that uses aria2 so everything goes so fast you're left feeling a little sad that there wasn't more fun to be had? 22:55:43 And why do I turn every description into a sort of existentialist nightmare? 22:55:50 powerpill 22:55:51 Especially when I misuse the term "existentialist"? 22:55:54 I use clyde nowadays, though 22:55:59 What does clyde to 22:55:59 *do 22:56:04 Which doesn't have magic downloading but was otherwise nicer 22:56:04 And what is it with Archers and wrapping pacman 22:56:13 It doesn't wrap pacman, for a change 22:56:14 Deewiant: Yeah, well, some of us only have 8 megabit connections. 22:56:19 It just uses pacman's library 22:56:40 there's a LIBRARY and people still wrap it? 22:56:41 Its main advantage is search speed, IIRC 22:56:41 sheesh 22:56:42 brb 22:56:47 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 23:10:50 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:11:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:11:09 -!- tombom has joined. 23:13:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 23:21:46 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:22:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:27:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:27:29 -!- augur has joined. 23:29:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 23:30:52 Everyone else use different window-manager and package-manager, but I have to write my own window manager, and also write the Arcane Linux Package Manager, or "pm" for short ("pm" being the command you must type in to activate it). And "pm" has to take package data from standard input and then install it if -I is given, and so on. (If no arguments are given, it must accept package data from stdin and then do nothing with it.) 23:31:07 -!- alise has joined. 23:31:10 Ugh; most PekWM themes suck. 23:41:08 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 23:41:20 I NEED LIFE ADVICE. 23:44:29 * Sgeo_ may be the wrong person to ask 23:44:40 IT'S ACTUALLY WINDOW MANAGER ADVICE. 23:47:18 I don't know which window managers are best, or about the function of some window managers 23:47:42 Basically all I want is something with a titlebar and minimise/maximise/close buttons :-) 23:48:08 fvwm95? 23:49:06 fvwm is a bit arcane and complex; and the -95 portion just makes your computer look like Windows 95, so, uh, yeah. 23:49:23 pekwm is quite good, xfwm4 is quite good (but it's a bit too tied to xfce), ... 23:50:54 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:51:06 pekwm has some oddities though. the menu, for instance; i dislike menu-controlled WMs. 23:51:15 if someone just made an updated icewm that'd be great. 23:54:40 i have a feeling that if Deewiant didn't have a terrible opinion on this matter he'd have a great opinion :D 23:56:25 alise: lmfao 23:56:34 you come up with the greatest little aphorisms 23:56:45 Am I the only one who pronounces lmfao as limmfaaao? 23:56:54 Like "lympho", were that a word. 23:57:03 Wait, it is! Excellent. 23:57:10 Well, it's a prefix, at least. 23:57:11 lymphomaniac: a person who craves lymph nodes 23:57:31 or who secrets sebaceous fluid 23:57:32 one or the other 23:57:42 or both 23:57:44 ;) 23:58:19 so, mmaker thinks that the pacman package manager should be filed under Games -> Arcade 23:58:22 discuss 23:58:54 What is mmaker? 23:59:33 it's an (arch linux specific?) utility that generates a menu file for various window managers/task bars (for the "start"-imitation menu) based on installed packages 23:59:44 pacman is the arch linux package manager, but mmaker deduces that it must be the arcade game instead :-) 2010-06-06: 00:00:06 alise, hahaha, nice 00:00:33 hey, I remember you ... well, i remember you being in here, just not anything about you 00:01:02 me? haha 00:01:13 i think i may have accidentally stumbled in here and idled for a few months maybe 00:01:22 i wish you were the chuck that drafted agora's ruleset, then you'd be interesting 00:02:01 Place menu.xml, rc.xml and autostart.sh in ~/.config/openbox 00:02:01 They can be found in /etc/xdg/openbox 00:02:06 You know, pacman, you could have done that yourself. 00:02:11 Lazy package manager... 00:02:40 let's see if this works 00:02:42 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 00:03:47 If "pacman" and "mmaker" are both Arch Linux programs, why is it broken like that? 00:03:56 Perhaps you can file a bug report 00:07:29 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:11:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:12:07 -!- augur has joined. 00:36:19 -!- alise has joined. 00:36:23 blargh; I think xfce was better 00:36:32 this is something akin to the epitome of fussitude 00:37:51 16:03:47 If "pacman" and "mmaker" are both Arch Linux programs, why is it broken like that? 00:37:54 It's a good question 00:38:00 I have a suspicion mmaker isn't just Arch 00:38:04 http://menumaker.sourceforge.net/ 00:38:05 Indeed 00:38:48 I need someone to endorse xfce4 so i feel ok about using it 00:43:54 I feel the control flow in Mimsy could be better, but it's hard to find an alternative 00:44:12 -- were the borogaves, and the nome raths outgrabe. if I have my spelling right 00:44:27 *borogoves, *mome. 00:44:47 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:45:18 great poem 00:49:12 Godel, Escher, Bach, contain, same poem but in English, French, German. 00:49:58 Are you sure it's GEB that contains Jabberwocky? 00:50:02 Not his book on translation? 00:50:27 Yes it does contain Jabberwocky, I will check the chapter number right now 00:50:42 Chapter XI 00:50:51 Chapter XII 00:50:56 Chapter XIIII 00:51:03 Sorry, there is no chapter number. 00:51:18 Chapter CCCLXVI 00:51:26 I mean, page 366 00:51:48 Half of the chapters are not real chapter numbers 00:52:02 Gah, I still have an urge to typeset the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. 00:52:22 Then, perhaps you can do so? 00:52:36 Are you going to include the appendix? 00:52:54 I would, but I'd need to find some text for it that has some sort of delineation to mark the italic portions; and some way to distinguish the open and close quotes. 00:53:02 If I had that, I could easily convert it into LaTeX and go from there. 00:53:05 zzo38: H2G2 has an appendix? 00:53:25 alise: I don't know if it does. But you can include it anyways if you really want to? 00:53:56 I'm pretty sure, as a work of fiction, that it doesn't. 00:54:01 Although House of Leaves probably has an appendix, and a tonsil. 00:54:02 appendix, spleen, tonsil, take your pick 00:54:07 oerjan: hello don woods 00:54:27 alise: i was thinking of the INTERCAL manual there 00:54:54 hm wait 00:55:01 that's what you were referring to 00:55:03 yes :P 00:55:06 The work of fiction "Harper's Challenge" does have appendices! ("Harper's Challenge" is a book working with me and some other people; and most of the data in the appendices are useless to to most people outside that group) 00:55:35 alise: i thought you meant house of leaves _actually_ had a tonsil. well i guess could be an INTERCAL homage 00:55:36 Well, uh, Douglas Adams was too awesome for appendices. 00:55:38 So there. 00:55:47 (But other people can still read the appendix if you want to read it anyways, in case you like to.) 00:55:49 oerjan: it doesn't, but with all the /other/ things that book has, it must have at lesat an appendix 00:56:02 oerjan: You can't do upside-down, spiral, coloured, ... text and not have an appendix, really. 00:56:25 you'd need an umbilical too, i think 00:56:33 (at the front) 00:57:49 i was about to ask "is the umbilical removable?". 00:58:50 *+cord 00:59:20 "After contacting the original author by the (nowadays nostalgic) means of sending an e-mail to crowther@sitename, where sitename was every host currently on the Internet" 00:59:33 :) 00:59:44 ucb!vax!... 01:00:57 um that wouldn't be Internet, would it? 01:01:04 uucp iirc 01:01:11 I forget what the exact paths looked like. 01:01:20 But I know it passed through a lot of non-"Internet" nodes. 01:01:30 A lot of conversion and whatnot, and also path components with their own curious semantics. 01:01:42 Was a wonderful time, not that I saw it, a wonderful, chaotic time, but a wonderful time nontheless. 01:01:47 *nonetheless 01:01:54 i thought the Internet was sort of defined by having the usual dot addresses 01:02:25 There probably are valid Internet E-Mail addresses that don't have dots in them... 01:02:28 There's an epilogue in the fourth book (of h2g2), that might be considered as a sort of an appendix. 01:03:07 * alise takes a look at it. I don't remember that epilogue. A strange one it is. 01:03:20 Ilari: e-mail != internet, is what i thought 01:03:33 usenet definitely was not the same as internet 01:03:37 The epilogue and the story are a bit unrelated. 01:04:17 There is no technical reason why TLDs can't have MX records, and in fact, some do. 01:04:27 Ilari: oh well, that. 01:04:52 governments should set up ccTLD email addresses for everyone 01:05:20 no, that's a very bad idea 01:05:25 governments should stay the fuck out of the internet 01:06:37 Yes and no. Yes, the Internet should not be controlled by governments, but it would be unreasonable to let anyone else set up ccTLD email addresses for a nations' citizens 01:06:51 Oh, you mean like foo@uk? 01:07:02 I don't really believe in ccTLDs for people, anyway. People move. 01:07:11 -!- Oranjer has joined. 01:07:14 Corporations, sure, corporations never "move" as such. 01:07:44 People, though, and groups that aren't specific to one country, shouldn't be on ccTLDs. The whole point of the Internet, more or less, is to remove geographical boundaries from the picture. 01:16:35 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 01:22:42 I make hypernet, using hypernet there is no TLDs or anything like that, and no central authorities or central servers, it is completely decentralized. Central authorities are for defining standard protocols and nothing else. Hypernet can pass through anything, including internet, sneakernet disks, ham radio, barcodes, even by somebody remembering all of the numbers and then traveling to another country to type number on other guy's computer! 01:23:09 A hypernet address might look like the following, for example: FM/4.30/DS.AXYPPRAPPREIOTUMQOIZUNVKKOURA.401 01:24:00 Or: FP/1.111.129944.393.4491.22/ST.OAJDGOIJWENTIVNNURNRUUEJJEOQNEIRNNF.62 01:24:38 ("FM" is "file (menu)", "FP" is "file (plain) 01:24:52 -!- ec has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:24:53 ", "DS" is "digital signature", "ST" is "static", etc) 01:26:03 -!- ec has joined. 01:27:46 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:30:38 -!- ws has quit (Quit: ...). 01:31:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: +++). 01:42:47 -!- Gregor has joined. 01:44:18 -!- alise has joined. 01:44:49 Hello. 01:45:35 alise, http://omploader.org/vNGlocw (safe for work) 01:45:43 alise, detail of the panorama thing in lego 01:45:47 You know, I don't not click NSFW links. :P 01:46:08 BUT BUT YOUR CHILDISH INNOCENCE 01:46:22 alise, okay, http://omploader.org/vNGlobQ http://omploader.org/vNGlobg (sfw, at least if you work at lego, otherwise boss might think you should grow up) ;P 01:46:28 alise, now that is both SFW and NSFW 01:46:36 HOW WILL YOU HANDLE THAT? 01:46:48 okay, now make porn involving it 01:46:56 alise, I can't imagine that 01:46:58 I just can't 01:47:08 well you'd need to add a few holes 01:47:39 alise, lego has a lot of holes in all those technic 1xn bricks 01:47:52 as well as in the technic beams 01:48:16 alise, also filebin is down 01:48:26 Q: I always disable the user list in IRC clients; am I crazy? 01:48:27 which mean I can't upload video of it's operation 01:48:28 :) 01:48:32 alise, yes 01:48:37 AnMaster: Crazy suggestion here -- YouTube 01:48:42 I know, right? YouTube for videos? 01:48:44 Sheesh! 01:48:49 AnMaster: But... /names 01:49:01 alise, well, depends on your needs I guess 01:49:23 Hmm, the tabs layout looks ugly with this xfce theme. 01:49:27 alise, as an op, to review the user list, quite useful to have one on the side 01:49:33 alise, what? No I don't want to become famous due to youtube ;P 01:49:39 AnMaster, you can make videos private 01:49:41 plus I forgot if I had an account there or not 01:49:42 only visible to those with url 01:49:57 and if I had an account, what the fuck the user name was 01:50:00 or password 01:50:11 bleh... on one hand, xfce is convenient 01:50:22 on the other hand, it'd be better if i was motivated enough to make something i like myself 01:50:23 alise, anyway I had problems recoding it. I got quicktime from my camera 01:50:38 ffmpeg to recode as ogg theora gave abysmal quality 01:50:53 Deewiant: I made powerpill give aria quiet=true, because no matter how many packages I install they always download instantly 01:51:01 And aria2 is really noisy 01:51:06 So I never see any download progress at all :-) 01:51:17 Gotta love that download-all-dependencies-at-once-from-hundreds-of-servers-at-once tactic. 01:51:22 Surefire way to max out your connection. 01:52:10 My current desktop: http://imgur.com/cDUlo.png 01:52:20 Guess what login manager I'm using, anyone... 01:53:46 I'll tell you the browser, Namoroka. Which is apparently Mozilla's latest "can't touch this" alternative for those not blessed to use its real name, Firefox. 01:53:47 How about /bin/login 01:54:27 Gregor: xdm. 01:54:36 Interestingly enough, xdm can be made to look good. 01:54:55 You go into its Xresources file, disable all the borders, use an Xft font, and make it use actual RGB colours. 01:57:16 Gregor: Btw, hackego broke agin. 01:57:56 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:57:56 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:57:59 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:57:59 -!- HackEgo has joined. 01:58:25 Gregor: it happens when you give it a lot of commands at once, I think 01:58:50 Even more so than usual I don't have time to deal with that now :P 01:59:33 Gregor: Oh, then you'll be interested to know ALL my ideas for lonelydino!-- 01:59:43 And that was, in fact, sarcasm, just in case you were wondering. :P 01:59:50 Okidoke. 02:03:13 Whaaaat? Pidgin depends on cdparanoia. 02:03:26 :-D 02:03:32 Because it depends on some GStreamer thing which depends on cdparanoia. 02:05:37 -!- augur has joined. 02:09:13 Hi augur. 02:09:20 hey alise 02:09:30 Hello suspiciously cordial people. 02:09:31 I am having real trouble finding a good text source for H2G2. :-( 02:11:49 SOMEONE FIND IT FOR ME. 02:16:40 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:18:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: And a splendid night to you too). 02:19:56 alise, powerpill? aria? 02:20:03 wft? 02:20:05 wtf* 02:20:17 powerpill is a wrapper around the Arch package manager pacman 02:20:20 it uses aria2 to do downloads 02:20:30 aria2 is a program that, given a file -- called a metalink or some nonsense -- 02:20:44 will download a file from many servers, listed in the file, at once -- including HTTP, FTP, bittorrent, etc. 02:20:51 we're talking dozens of servers at once for one single file 02:20:56 the effect is, it completely maxes out your connection 02:21:05 even if you never get full speed, aria2 certainly will 02:21:12 alise, that's not nice 02:21:21 the whole point is speed... 02:21:23 aalnetiquette and so on 02:21:26 ?? 02:21:28 alise, * netiquette and so on 02:21:29 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:21:29 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:21:31 -!- HackEgo has joined. 02:21:31 -!- EgoBot has joined. 02:21:31 you're an idiot 02:21:32 is what I meant to type 02:21:35 how does it violate netiquette? 02:21:43 it doesn't overload any server 02:21:47 alise, well, it hogs a lot of mirrors 02:21:53 no, it doesn't hog them 02:22:00 anyway it's officially supported by a lot of stuff, so that's just rubbish 02:22:00 http://aria2.sourceforge.net/ 02:22:04 which makes it slower for other users if they are already near fully loaded 02:22:10 alise, okay then 02:22:26 alise, anyway, the mirror I use maxes my connection with normal wget 02:22:29 so I'm happy 02:22:38 maxes as in all you ever get, or maxes as in what your ISP says you should get? 02:22:43 aria2 gives you the latter almost always 02:22:51 anyway, powerpill just downloads all the files of a package and its dependencies with aria2 given all the arch mirrors. 02:22:56 alise, those two are close to each other 02:22:56 (simultaneously) 02:23:00 I should get 8 mbit/s 02:23:17 AnMaster: I used to get 200-300KiB/s on downloads usually. 8 Mbit rated connection. aria2 gave me 800 KiB/s. 02:23:20 I get 950 kB/s normally 02:23:24 far away from exchange 02:23:39 alise, I'm just 50 kiB short of what I should get 02:23:45 and that is probably TCP overhead and such 02:23:51 Well, you're lucky. Most people aren't so. 02:24:34 alise, that is when I'm lucky, more often I get around 800 kiB/s from mirrors.kernel.org 02:24:44 alise, which is still very good 02:25:04 and about what you got with aria2 02:25:29 alise, just use a good mirror, like mirrors.kernel.org 02:25:38 I've used every mirror there is, more or less 02:25:46 alise, mirrors.kernel.org is just 12 hops away from me 02:25:59 $ host mirrors.kernel.org 02:25:59 mirrors.kernel.org is an alias for mirrors.geo.kernel.org. 02:26:04 aha 02:26:08 it goes to a mirror in Sweden 02:26:09 :D 02:26:15 umu.se 02:26:23 I think that is Umeå University 02:26:35 which is in north Sweden, so could have been closer 02:26:53 alise, still best mirror ever for me, much better than other .se mirrors 02:29:40 night → 02:29:40 alise, is picking the parts that I want, and scaling back if it goes over $1000, sensible? 02:29:44 Night AnMaster 02:31:00 DAEMONS=(syslog-ng @network !netfs @crond @oss) 02:31:08 ASYNCHRONICITY FUCK YEAH 02:32:36 Anyone used xfce's wm? 02:32:45 How do I stop it focusing a window when I use the scroll wheel in it? 02:44:58 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:47:47 -!- alise has joined. 02:50:53 What is it with yaourt and baffling periods of complete silence in which it does nothing? 03:00:32 Anyone know what part of gstreamer offers gstreamer-properties(1)? 03:04:47 sqlite3.c:45653:34: warning: assuming signed overflow does not occur when assuming that (X + c) >= X is always true 03:04:56 -!- calamari has joined. 03:05:09 Oh no, it's calamari. 03:05:19 alise: ??? :) 03:05:27 Well, you're an octopus! 03:05:40 Not exactly an ... alive one, admittedly, but... 03:05:41 nope, you're safe 03:05:52 I'm a squid 03:06:00 err, right 03:06:01 although arent octopus worse? 03:06:06 err squid 03:06:07 lol 03:06:15 all those deep sea things with tentacles are basically the same imo 03:06:20 no point distinguishing them right? 03:06:29 not really.. octopus are much smarter than squid 03:06:40 yeah, I really care about that :-P 03:07:11 and besides, calamari is actually a star wars return of the jedi reference 03:07:16 Gosh, the Mozilla source code really does take a long time to compile. 03:07:29 Serves me right for installing OSSv4. 03:07:42 I should have stuck with the nice big friendly, warm ball of mud that is ALSA. 03:08:04 How on earth that is related to Mozilla, you may all speculate. 03:08:16 I tried OSSv4 but it wouldn't recognize my sound card 03:09:07 I just use onboard sound because the only sound card that matters is Soundblaster anyway 03:09:12 What do you have, some silly X-Fi nonsense? :P 03:10:23 it's an older card that I've kept around because I like my roland sound canvas daughterboard (for midi) 03:10:42 02:02.0 Multimedia audio controller: Aureal Semiconductor Vortex 2 (rev fe) 03:11:04 Although it really is something like turtle beach montego 03:11:46 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:12:05 came installed in a dell p3 600MHz 03:12:59 Bah, get a Roland MT-32. 03:13:08 Then fail to ever figure out how to connect it properly. Like I did! 03:13:28 But seriously, that MT-32 is a beast. Totally reprogrammable sounds, perfect-sounding default set... 03:13:46 Has a little LED display; games used to display little messages on them when they started up as a goodie to whoever was lucky enough to own an MT-32. 03:13:52 Surprisingly heavy! 03:14:05 The sound that comes out has a little analogue fuzz in the background; quite endearing. 03:14:43 alise: I don't have that unit, but the card I have is basically related 03:14:49 probably has the same sound set 03:15:37 calamari: but that's the thing, the base MT-32 set isn't the special thing 03:15:44 it could be reprogrammed on-the-spot to produce different sounds 03:15:53 so indeed the things that sound so good with the MT-32 are because they reprogram it 03:15:57 thus the imitation cards are basically useless 03:19:16 the turtle beach card can be reprogrammed.. but I liked the sound set on the scb-15 so I use it 03:19:28 a beach with turtles 03:20:07 I tried different sound fonts, and it just never sounded right.. I'd heard the songs too many times the other way 03:20:34 I love the music from Monkey Island on an MT-32. 03:20:40 actually iirc mt-32 was a selectable subset 03:20:47 it wasn't the main sounds 03:20:59 Sounds fresh 19 years later. Or is it 20? Gosh. 03:21:06 I'm saying "gosh" an awful lot today. 03:21:20 xulrunner-oss is *still* building. 03:21:55 and dd_rescue has been trying to pull bits from this microSD card for around 24 hours now 03:22:07 I wish I could tell the kernel not to try so hard 03:22:31 yes it's a broken card, no need for three 180 second timeouts to confirm that 03:23:11 the answer to "why do I need to rebuild xulrunner because of my sound system", incidentally, is "because