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09:10:14 <coppro> Am I the only one here who finds it weird that ":vim" in vim is the command to grep?
09:21:32 <fizzie> Well, it's just an unambiguous abbreviation of "vimgrep", the full command name.
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09:22:07 <fizzie> (There is also :grep, which uses an external grep utility.)
09:22:23 <coppro> fizzie: I know what it is
09:22:40 <fizzie> But it's not as weird as calling the command just "vim".
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16:37:19 <pikhq> GHC without shared libraries produces some quite amazing binary sizes.
16:41:25 <Deewiant> strip -s typically halves them
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17:25:37 <cheater99> pikhq: what's the largest you got?
17:28:11 <AnMaster> <pikhq> GHC without shared libraries produces some quite amazing binary sizes. <-- worse than GCC?
17:28:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, the thing is, static linking is the default in GHC.
17:29:15 <oerjan> what's the size of "main = return ()" ? :D
17:30:41 <oerjan> they only recently got dynamic linking working in any implementations at all, iirc
17:30:50 <pikhq> oerjan: 12K with dynamic linking.
17:30:58 <pikhq> Which appears to be the minimum GHC binary size.
17:31:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, what was size before strip?
17:31:32 <pikhq> The thing is, there's a massive chunk of stuff in there.
17:31:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, is all that really needed?
17:31:45 <pikhq> As it's statically linking the entire runtime in there.
17:31:58 <pikhq> The garbage collector probably is.
17:32:21 <pikhq> The thread implementation is probably not.
17:32:24 <AnMaster> <pikhq> As it's statically linking the entire runtime in there. <-- doesn't linking against *.a just pull the files you actually need?
17:32:45 <pikhq> Yes, but it pulls in the entire contents of those files.
17:32:50 <Deewiant> Run your ./donothing +RTS --help and see what you've got
17:33:08 <pikhq> Massive chunk of stuff.
17:33:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, split it in more files then
17:33:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: GHC isn't a magic-worker.
17:33:53 <pikhq> Also, most of it's going to be pulled in anyways.
17:33:55 <Deewiant> It could, in theory, notice that your program doesn't use the GC at all
17:34:07 <pikhq> Because you can pass arguments to the RTS...
17:34:14 <Deewiant> But since only trivial hello-world or do-nothing level programs do that, there's no point
17:34:39 <pikhq> Letting you configure a lot of stuff with the GC, the threading library, etc.
17:35:10 <oerjan> they're apparently going to turn off +RTS handling by default iirc, it's a security hole
17:35:39 <oerjan> it allows specifying some output files iirc
17:36:13 <pikhq> For GC stat logging.
17:36:46 <Deewiant> std::cout << "Hi\n"; is 496K with g++ and a statically linked libstdc++
17:37:00 <Deewiant> GHC isn't that amazing IMO :-P
17:38:06 <pikhq> Yeah, int main(){} statically linked is 580K.
17:38:18 <pikhq> Glibc is designed by retards apparently.
17:38:59 <oerjan> it's designed by a guy who violently spits on anyone suggesting they should try to save memory, iirc
17:39:19 <pikhq> Freaking Ulrich Drepper.
17:39:37 <oerjan> (aka being useful for embedded devices)
17:42:20 <pikhq> Yeah, glibc is pretty feature-complete, but it comes at the expense of being usable on anything with less than, oh, 64M of RAM.
17:55:07 <Deewiant> pikhq: How'd you manage that? My int main(){} was 6.3K (smaller than the dynamically linked one)
17:55:20 <pikhq> Deewiant: ... Glibc?
17:55:36 <AnMaster> with uclibc it was smaller for me, with glibc it was larger
17:56:14 <Deewiant> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.5.0/../../../../lib/libstdc++.a
17:56:32 <Deewiant> I don't have any other libc's here AFAIK :-P
17:56:40 <pikhq> That's not even libc.
17:56:53 <pikhq> int main(){}, build with gcc -static.
17:57:43 <Deewiant> I googled it and found a reference to a non-working -static-libgcc and a recommendation to hide libstdc++.so
17:57:57 <Deewiant> Where "it" is static linking with g++
17:58:08 <Deewiant> I was talking about C++ from the start :-P
17:59:46 <Deewiant> I felt the comparison was more meaningful that way since GHC also dynamically links libc
18:11:26 <pikhq> ../../../gcc-4.5.0/libgcc/config/libbid/bid_decimal_globals.c:47:18: fatal error: fenv.h: No such file or directory
18:11:33 <pikhq> I hate you so much GCC.
18:16:18 <oerjan> hey we're (the wiki) on the reddit front page
18:18:55 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/clhyt/internet_relay_programming/c0tff21
18:26:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Tweeted: About NetHack: perceptive of you to the ground, with a single strong, yet impervious to gravity? he invites the very devil, an off-shoot..."
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18:49:18 <alise> 07:04:03 <pikhq> OMFG.
18:49:18 <alise> 07:04:16 <pikhq> The Pirate Party is now going to take over running the Pirate Bay.
18:49:18 <alise> 07:04:25 <pikhq> ... *Inside Swedish parliament*.
18:49:18 <alise> 07:05:34 <pikhq> Because Swedish politicians are almost entirely immune to prosecution from things done as part of their political goals.
18:59:13 <pikhq> mlterm is an amazing terminal.
19:00:32 <alise> IS IT REALLY THOUGH
19:01:22 <pikhq> It handles languages correctly.
19:02:28 <oerjan> yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo
19:02:31 <oerjan> yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo
19:05:53 <Gregor> http://nedroid.com/2010/07/a-holiday-reminder/
19:06:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:08:09 <oerjan> never swallow rockets, especially when lighted
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19:12:41 <alise> Gracenotes: <3 nedroid
19:12:59 <Gracenotes> I AGREE EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE NOT TALKING TO ME ;_;
19:16:45 <pikhq> I CAN TYPE PAUL ERDŐS AGAIN!
19:19:06 <alise> 12:01:29 <ghostwriter42> http://mindcontrol101.blogspot.com/ read the paragraph that says "pick a number"
19:20:49 <alise> 12:32:53 <coppro> <3 Glee
19:20:56 <alise> I hope not the awful TV show.
19:21:13 <coppro> alise: it is not awful. It has music.
19:21:29 <alise> I do hope you're joking.
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19:21:46 <pikhq> Anyways: I've got a terminal that handles Unicode actually correctly.
19:21:52 <pikhq> Unlike urxvt, which claims to and fails.
19:22:03 <pikhq> coppro: Terminal emulator
19:22:16 <oerjan> aka terminator. wait...
19:22:34 <pikhq> How does it handle bidirectional text?
19:22:36 <alise> 16:44:29 <Gregor-W> Honestly that quote just makes me wonder where these people live where the women sleep in lavish four-poster beds and the men sleep curled up in the fetal position in the corner of a concrete box.
19:22:44 <pikhq> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminator_(terminal_emulator)
19:23:01 <coppro> pikhq: Oh... that I have no clue of
19:23:04 <alise> i used terminator for a while
19:23:09 <coppro> Can you give me a sample so that I can test it?
19:26:10 <pikhq> That should render as the same glyphs as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arabic_albayancalligraphy.svg
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19:29:06 <pikhq> And there's the glyphs by themselves, so you can see if it's doing the complex layout correctly, as well.
19:36:18 <alise> pikhq: Terminator also does Unicode spectacularly, BTW.
19:36:42 <alise> pikhq: ... As does rio...
19:37:19 <pikhq> Not enough things do.
19:39:21 * pikhq shall check out terminator
19:40:11 <oklopol> SimonRC: was it you who was obsessed with lucid dreaming at some point, or was it pikhq
19:41:12 <oklopol> last night i had one where i created a few people and asked them to play me a song, to see how good a song my brain could come up with on the fly
19:41:56 <pikhq> Hmm. So far I see two major failings in Terminator.
19:41:57 <oklopol> i remember it was awesome, but the actual details i remember are really weird and stupid :P
19:42:00 <pikhq> First, it doesn't handle IMEs.
19:42:09 <pikhq> Second, it doesn't handle bidirectional text.
19:42:51 <pikhq> mlterm seems to be rendering underscores oddly.
19:43:14 <pikhq> Basically, it isn't aware of where they get rendered, so it ends up not actually clearing them from the screen.
19:44:20 <pikhq> Is it too much to ask for a terminal without bugs?
19:46:02 <pikhq> Set the line spacing to 1 and it magically works.
19:52:42 <alise> pikhq: Third, Terminator is Java.
19:52:54 <alise> <pikhq> Set the line spacing to 1 and it magically works. <-- OTOH, you have to deal with line spacing 1.
19:53:26 <pikhq> Said pixel being where the underscore goes.
19:55:35 <alise> So, am I right in thinking that I could get out of an EU country's mandatory military service by not being a proper resident but only a European Citizen?
19:56:32 <pikhq> Actually, by not being a *citizen of the EU country in question*.
19:56:33 <Deewiant> Don't all military services require citizenship of the country anyway
19:56:55 <AnMaster> the French have some foreign legion or such iirc?
19:56:59 <pikhq> The US and French militaries, for instance, quite approve of foreign volunteers.
19:57:13 <pikhq> The French Foreign Legion comes with automatic French citizenship.
19:57:27 <Deewiant> Hmm, I thought the US required it
19:57:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, so you drop your old citizenship?
19:57:35 <Deewiant> Should've remembered the French though
19:57:38 <pikhq> Deewiant: Fast track to citizenship.
19:57:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, they allow dual citizenship.
19:57:50 <Deewiant> But that still counts as requiring it :-P
19:57:50 <alise> <pikhq> Actually, by not being a *citizen of the EU country in question*.
19:57:56 <alise> Then Finland is on the cards again.
19:57:58 <pikhq> Deewiant: No, they don't require it.
19:58:04 <alise> (I refuse to be drafted.)
19:58:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, does your host country do that though=
19:58:07 <pikhq> However, by being in the military, citizenship is very easy.
19:58:16 <Deewiant> alise: You could've just said Finland instead of "an EU country" although I guessed that one anyway ;-P
19:58:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: Most nations allow it.
19:58:24 <alise> Deewiant: Did I need to say Finland? :)
19:58:55 <Deewiant> alise: In Finland, you can also do the civil service even if you do get drafted, if you just don't want to do military stuff
19:59:01 <alise> Deewiant: Oh, so that's why you're a hideously intelligent sociopath: they teach you their secrets in the military, then make you blow people up with them. Well, okay, so I invented the sociopath thing myself.
19:59:08 <alise> Deewiant: Yeah, but I also don't want to do the civil service :P
19:59:12 <pikhq> alise: Also, fun fact: all nations with mandatory military service in Europe do not have those forced ever be deployed.
19:59:25 <pikhq> It'd be political suicide, obviously.
19:59:38 <Deewiant> alise: You can also go to jail to spend the minimum amount of time ;-P
19:59:41 <pikhq> They have, in effect, volunteer armies, yet force people to do random training for a year or two.
19:59:43 <alise> pikhq: In Finland you can serve a jail sentence instead.
19:59:55 <alise> Which is just totally awesome!
20:00:01 <alise> But I think I'll just live with being a second-class citizen.
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20:00:11 <alise> Actually, can't European citizens of age even vote in their resident country?
20:00:16 <pikhq> alise: Hardly even "second-class".
20:00:19 <pikhq> Yes, you can vote.
20:00:47 <pikhq> Pretty much the only thing that makes you second-class is a need to carry around your passport.
20:00:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, so if I moved to Denmark I could vote in both Denmark and in Sweden?
20:01:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, do I get two votes to the EU parliament? ;)
20:01:48 <alise> pikhq: Also, Mr. Immigration Expert, how do I renounce my British citizenship? And can I still be a European citizen?
20:02:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, what if I moved into a house placed right on top of the German/Danish border? Could I vote in 3 countries then?
20:02:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That house would be disambiguated :-P
20:02:40 <pikhq> alise: Varies from nation to nation.
20:03:05 <alise> AnMaster: What if the two countries had varying age of consent laws, and you fucked someone in the middle of the age bracket half on the border and half not?!
20:03:18 <pikhq> The typical process, though, involves going to the nearest embassy, declaring intent to renounce citizenship, and then relinquishing your passport.
20:03:19 <alise> I guess the half the vagina is on might matter.
20:03:29 <pikhq> They will probably also require proof that you have other citizenship.
20:03:32 <alise> pikhq: The passport thing might be an issue.
20:03:37 <alise> pikhq: So I can't just be an EU citizen?
20:03:48 <AnMaster> alise, awesome idea with that "right in the middle"
20:03:49 <pikhq> No, as the EU is not a sovereign nation.
20:04:03 <alise> pikhq: Dammit, why not?!
20:04:11 <AnMaster> alise, alas I don't know the answer
20:04:14 <alise> pikhq: I don't want to be British but I don't want to be Finnish either :P
20:04:19 <pikhq> Because Europeans go "ZOMG NEED NATIONS"
20:04:32 <alise> AnMaster: The answer is that the nations would decide who has sovereignity over the house, probably, and the borders would change accordingly.
20:04:42 <alise> AnMaster: Alternatively, you wouldn't be granted permission to build the house. This is the most likely scenario.
20:04:45 <pikhq> alise: If you got employed at Vatican City you could become Vatican.
20:04:58 <alise> pikhq: I don't need physical molestation to go with the emotional!
20:05:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: If they grant permission to build the house, they will sign a treaty to note who has jurisdiction over the building.
20:06:07 <pikhq> This is how it works with things like CERN, which are on national borders.
20:06:15 <pikhq> I doubt they'll sign a treaty for a *house*, so.
20:06:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, heh, aren't there any existing buildings that crosses any borders?
20:06:29 <pikhq> Governed by treaties.
20:06:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, even for small cottages on borders or such?
20:06:57 <pikhq> They draw borders around them.
20:07:16 <pikhq> There's also a few border disputes because of things like that.
20:07:27 <alise> draw a big trans-border house shaped like a penis
20:07:30 <alise> get borders changed
20:07:52 <pikhq> National borders are *such* a bizarre thing.
20:08:47 <AnMaster> alise, probably the border will end up with a rectangular hole for it
20:09:17 <alise> AnMaster: no, nobody would give up more than is strictly necessary!
20:09:25 <alise> also, geometric borders would be weird.
20:09:35 <pikhq> alise: "All categories of British nationality can be renounced by a declaration made to the Home Secretary. A person ceases to be a British national on the date that the declaration of renunciation is registered by the Home Secretary. If a declaration is registered in the expectation of acquiring another citizenship, but one is not acquired within six months of the registration, it does not take effect and the person is considered to have r
20:09:56 <alise> AnMaster: AFRICA IS WEIRD MAN.
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20:10:06 <pikhq> to have remained a British national."
20:10:10 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Africa_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg Not all /that/ geometric.
20:10:31 <alise> pikhq: So I could only renounce my British citizenship by becoming a Finnish citizen, then, and thus suffering the draft.
20:10:32 <pikhq> So, you need to gain other citizenship to lose British citizenship, full-stop.
20:10:36 <AnMaster> alise, there are several straight lines though
20:10:41 <alise> It's just paranoia tells me to get the fuck away from the British government in any way possible.
20:10:48 <fizzie> CERN has a border going right through their campus; I think the border still goes right through, but they also don't care about it much. Of course they have quite a lot of identity-checking on the campus gates, so...
20:11:13 <coppro> fizzie: It's also a Schengen border
20:11:38 <pikhq> fizzie: It's a Schengen border, *and* sovereignity is defined.
20:11:50 <pikhq> IIRC, all but one of the buildings is under French jurisdiction.
20:12:13 <coppro> alise: no, you could also become a stateless person (not recommended)
20:12:30 <pikhq> There's also an airport on the US/Canada border...
20:12:31 <alise> coppro: Just curious, why would that be unrecommended? :P
20:12:35 <alise> Lack of any rights?
20:12:35 <pikhq> This works very oddly.
20:12:44 <coppro> AnMaster: no nationality
20:12:48 <alise> Could I be an EU citizen? I suppose not :-P
20:13:12 <pikhq> Past the security gates in an international airport is considered to be only under international law.
20:13:13 <AnMaster> alise, and this means you are moving abroad?
20:13:15 <alise> AnMaster: But I'd rather live in Finland. :P
20:13:25 <alise> There's interesting people in Finland. Sweden...
20:13:34 <pikhq> As such: one side of the building is under US jusrisdiction, one is under Canada, and the middle is under NONE AT ALL.
20:13:37 <alise> pikhq: Is there an international age of consent?
20:13:52 <alise> If not: Pedobear tiem
20:14:01 <alise> "You wanna go on a plane, little girl?"
20:14:07 <alise> "I got a biiiig loooong aeroplane..."
20:14:17 <pikhq> alise: The *plane* is under the jurisdiction of the country it's over.
20:14:31 <alise> pikhq: "You know what, little girl? Let's just stay here."
20:14:35 <pikhq> "Jurisdiction" is really not set up for modern transit.
20:14:53 <alise> pikhq: I am founding the United State of No Planes Allowed.
20:14:59 <coppro> pikhq: The way customs zones are handled in Canadian airports is fun
20:15:02 <alise> Let's all just claim tiny little islands and make flight patterns a hell of a lot more complicated.
20:15:04 <alise> [[While stateless persons were more common before the 20th century, when many states were somewhat fragile entities, on September 20, 1954 the United Nations adopted the Convention Relating to the Status of Stateless Persons: an active policy to prevent people becoming or remaining stateless.]]
20:15:08 <alise> coppro: HOW AM BECOME STATELESS
20:15:11 <pikhq> alise: Perfectly possible.
20:15:20 <alise> [[Principle 3 of the 1959 Declaration of the Rights of the Child asserts that:
20:15:21 <alise> "The child shall be entitled from his birth to a name and a nationality."]]
20:15:32 <pikhq> alise: The UK makes a point of not allowing anyone to become stateless.
20:15:40 <alise> So how am become stateless!
20:15:45 <AnMaster> <coppro> pikhq: The way customs zones are handled in Canadian airports is fun <-- oh?
20:15:51 <pikhq> It is literally impossible to lose UK citizenship without having another citizenship.
20:16:04 <alise> pikhq: Mind, I don't actually want to. Having UK citizenship is completely harmless, right?
20:16:27 <pikhq> ... Hmm. Is the NHS UK or British?
20:16:47 <coppro> AnMaster: We have US preclearance, so in some parts of the airport, you're legally in Canada; other parts you're waiting to immigrate, and other parts you're waiting to emigrate. Because of the changing volumes of traffic, these zones change throughout the day.
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20:16:57 <alise> pikhq: English, but I'm sure the other analogues would cooperate.
20:16:58 <pikhq> National Health Service.
20:17:01 <alise> AnMaster: National "Health" Service.
20:17:10 <AnMaster> coppro, what... that made no sense
20:17:20 <alise> AnMaster: The unit happens to be under its jurisdiction; so I would prefer you used the proper name, "National Hell Service".
20:17:30 <coppro> AnMaster: In most major Canadian airports, you clear US customs before leaving (if you're going to the USA)
20:18:10 <coppro> AnMaster: have you ever been through customs in a busy US airport? If so, you'd understand why.
20:18:15 <AnMaster> coppro, so how do those zones change in size? some marker being moved?
20:18:21 <coppro> AnMaster: security doors and such
20:18:28 <AnMaster> coppro, I have never been outside Europe
20:18:33 <pikhq> alise: Dude, you could escape to a different constituent country of the UK if you felt that they wouldn't cooperate.
20:18:40 <AnMaster> coppro, in fact, I been to Sweden, Norway and Denmark
20:18:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: US customs is a pain even if you're a US citizen.
20:18:52 <alise> pikhq: I disagree.
20:18:59 <alise> pikhq: There is generally[2] no discrimination when a patient resident in one country of the United Kingdom requires treatment in another. The consequent financial matters and paperwork of such inter-working are dealt with between the organisations involved and there is generally no personal involvement by the patient comparable to that which might occur when a resident of one European Union member country receives treatment in another.
20:19:04 <ais523> coppro: I've actually seen that, I've been in a Canadian airport
20:19:10 <alise> pikhq: i.e., they have an intense relationship with each other and are completely transparent for the patient.
20:19:24 <alise> i.e., "We have a wonderful Scottish unit for you..."
20:19:25 <pikhq> Other nation then.
20:19:29 <ais523> the amount of security difference between the US and non-US side was staggering
20:19:29 <alise> pikhq: That is the plan.
20:19:41 <pikhq> I'd imagine it's actual hell if you aren't a US citizen...
20:19:46 <coppro> it's pretty silly actually
20:19:55 <pikhq> ais523: We love our security theater.
20:20:08 <coppro> "You're going to the US? We must do what the USA overlords say! Everyone strip!" "You're going somewhere else? Oh, carry on then."
20:20:34 <pikhq> I say "theater" because if I wanted to cause major havoc, I'd set off a bomb at the security station...
20:20:48 <ais523> pikhq: in the UK, they even check for that
20:20:52 <pikhq> Or build one out of 1 oz liquid bottles after security.
20:20:53 <alise> pikhq: You are now being monitored by ECHELON. Congratulations!
20:21:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:21:55 <ais523> IIRC there was someone who cooked a three-course meal on a plane
20:22:01 <pikhq> Guess I'll need to shave off all my hair, go to Japan, and call myself 榛林・神支.
20:22:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, why aren't you using ssl for freenode?
20:22:52 <AnMaster> * [AnMaster] is using a secure connection
20:22:54 <alise> AnMaster: Because #esoteric is publicly logged.
20:23:05 <alise> And I don't talk about my rape-murders here.
20:23:08 <AnMaster> alise, yes true, but what about all other channels
20:23:17 <coppro> I'm not on a secure connection because I could care less about whether any of my conversation here is public
20:23:28 <alise> AnMaster: Of which I am present in none, and I would probably never say anything particularly worth monitoring in a technology-related channel, as the channels on this network are suppsoed to be.
20:23:30 <coppro> most of my channels aren't even +s
20:23:35 <AnMaster> coppro, actually I'm on it for nickserv password not to be stolen
20:23:45 <ais523> most of the channels I'm on are either logged, or populated enough that it would be trivial to log them secretly without people noticing
20:23:49 <alise> ECHELON only looks for terrorism-related keywords, apparently. Admittedly, not the most trustable source -- them -- but still.
20:23:53 <alise> They couldn't possibly monitor /everything/.
20:23:59 <coppro> I use a throwaway password for NickServ
20:24:18 <alise> ais523: trivial to monitor even on small channels if you use e.g. Tor to serve the logs and keep your computer on 24/7 :P
20:24:28 <ais523> among other things, it's too easy to type the password in-channel by mistake
20:24:34 <alise> I use my one and only password for NickServ but that's a mistake of years ago and fixing it is something for another day.
20:24:36 <ais523> alise: on very small channels, you know everyone there
20:24:52 <ais523> so if someone's logging secretly, you have quite an idea of who it is
20:25:15 <AnMaster> <coppro> I use a throwaway password for NickServ
20:25:23 <alise> But still nothing.
20:25:25 * AnMaster use random generated strings for everything
20:25:34 <fizzie> Even with a throwaway password, someone might identify as you and then do IRREPARABLE HARM to your Freenode reputation!
20:25:42 <alise> AnMaster: I don't think anyone in here could have guessed anything less.
20:25:46 <alise> You're not exactly unpredictable.
20:25:47 <alise> AnMaster: Really now?
20:25:57 <alise> You are though, on the level of the disorder. :)
20:26:13 <AnMaster> alise, why should I trust you on that ;)
20:27:23 <AnMaster> ais523, oh I'm logging. To an encrypted volume. Private logs. When rotated to cd after 2 years or so: encrypted as well
20:27:48 <alise> Maybe we should institutionalise AnMaster.
20:27:48 <ais523> AnMaster: well, I have privlogs somewhere too, although I don't post them without permission of everyone involved
20:29:17 <alise> How on earth does one start work on such a project as this...
20:29:17 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:29:44 <coppro> alise: step 1: surreptitiously exchange your passports
20:30:32 <alise> coppro: With ... what?
20:30:32 <Sgeo__> http://notalwaysright.com/till-password-reset-do-us-part/6004
20:30:46 <Sgeo__> Who finds the fact that the password is stored more painful than the customer?
20:30:52 <coppro> then AnMaster gets institutionalised and you're free
20:31:07 <alise> coppro: Ooh, nice idea. Actually, scratch that: crap idea.
20:31:37 <alise> Sgeo__: Who said it was stored?
20:31:56 <Sgeo__> The fact that the password is visible to the worker in the call center?
20:32:10 <alise> Sgeo__: It's not a password, it's a security "password".
20:32:14 <alise> It being visible is to be expected.
20:33:17 <Sgeo__> Those sorts of passwords are lame and shouldn't exist.
20:33:23 <ais523> it's not a computer password, it's the sort of password you say to a human
20:33:27 <Sgeo__> ALthough I don't know what the alternative is
20:33:39 <ais523> and humans are generally incapable of doing secure hashes in their head, so they generally know the plaintext version
20:33:58 <alise> My secret answers are always woiyaq984U095VWOR'V#[;A@waie()!&"(*¬.
20:34:04 <alise> My mother had a really strange maiden name.
20:34:36 <fizzie> ais523: The call center person could still have some sort of an app where it types in what the customer said and gets a yes/no indication back.
20:34:44 <fizzie> (Of course spelling issues and so on.)
20:34:45 <ais523> alise: what about servers that think that ¬ is some sort of SQL injection attack?
20:34:57 <ais523> hmm, we need fuzzy hashes for passwords
20:35:00 <ais523> which are yet somehow still secure
20:35:02 <alise> ais523: They're evil people who disrespect my mother.
20:35:07 <coppro> pet peeve: people who say EST when they mean EDT
20:35:18 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think ' is more common "ooh, a scary character" in SQL than ".
20:35:19 <alise> Pet peeve: Pet peeves.
20:35:23 <Deewiant> Pet peeve: people who use anything but UTC±n
20:35:35 <ais523> Deewiant: generally speaking, people who disallow things in passwords because they're scared of injection attacks don't do so in any particularly logical way
20:35:53 <fizzie> Pet peeve: the last word in the pet business; forget cats and dogs, those are so last-millennium.
20:35:57 <alise> Pet peeve: People who use anything but UTC :P
20:35:58 <ais523> people who know what they're doing just use parameterized queries (or stored procedures, which implies parameterized)
20:36:06 <alise> Pet peeve: pet rocks.
20:36:36 <alise> Pet peeve: Pet peeves of "peeved pets"; peeved pets with pet peeves.
20:36:42 <pikhq> Pet peeve: people who don't actually sync their clocks.
20:36:43 <alise> ais523: Or ¬SQL :P
20:37:01 <alise> pikhq: I don't know if I sync mine.
20:37:03 <alise> Ooh, I'm so naughty.
20:39:29 <ais523> mostly because it's easier than remembering when DST starts and ends
20:39:47 <ais523> Windows always used to ask for confirmation when DST started and ended
20:39:48 <alise> Your computer can do that automatically regardless. :P
20:39:53 <alise> ais523: ah yeah i remember that
20:39:58 <alise> "I changed the clock. Did... did I do well?"
20:40:05 <alise> Deewiant: Nonsense.
20:40:26 <ais523> which was especially annoying because I had a computer with a broken RTC (it didn't work while power was off), so you had to set it during boot, and Windows always corrected the correct time to a wrong one after a DST change
20:40:29 <ais523> so you had to change it back
20:40:47 <pikhq> Deewiant: Yes, and there's a handy-dandy UTC time source for them.
20:41:08 <alise> I don't think my physical clocks are expensive enough to synchronise.
20:42:08 <Deewiant> I'm fine with a few minutes' inaccuracy
20:42:47 <Deewiant> It's not like I need the precisely correct time for anything
20:43:04 <ais523> alise: clocks in computers are physical too
20:43:10 <ais523> a virtual clock wouldn't work if you turned the computer off
20:43:29 <coppro> my wristwatch is currently 35.5 seconds behind MDT
20:43:31 <alise> ais523: Oh, shut up.
20:43:47 <alise> My wristwatch is currently nonexistent.
20:43:59 <alise> I'm, like, an anarchist, going around without all these possessions and reminders of the constant passage of time to weigh me down.
20:44:12 <alise> Deewiant: Mountie Djawesome Time.
20:44:22 <alise> It's the official timezone of the Federated States of Canadia.
20:44:31 <alise> OTOH, it might just be Calgary's time zone.
20:44:37 <alise> Mountain Time Zone, apparently.
20:44:54 <alise> MDT = Mountain Time Zone. Hmm.
20:44:58 <pikhq> alise: My pocketwatch is broken.
20:45:04 <alise> *Mountain Daylight Time
20:45:13 <pikhq> So, I have a constant reminder of the constant non-passage of time.
20:45:25 <alise> pikhq: Technically I'm lying as if I was going anywhere as an actual thing I'd take my phone.
20:45:33 <pikhq> "It's *still* 11:11! Awesome!"
20:45:41 <alise> That iPhone sure has been good to me.
20:46:23 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Pet peeve: people who don't actually sync their clocks. <-- agreed
20:47:10 <alise> I have replaced AnMaster with a very small program. Have any of you noticed?
20:47:47 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Thanks, NIST! <-- NIST?
20:48:07 <pikhq> National Instute of Standards and Technology.
20:48:24 <pikhq> Among other things, they've got an atomic clock hooked to a radio broadcast.
20:49:01 <alise> AnMaster: Hey, don't talk back at your creator.
20:49:17 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:49:20 <AnMaster> alise, you wrote an AI... *kills alise*
20:49:35 <alise> AnMaster: Wow, I didn't code in a strong lampshading of North American...ism. Emergent behaviour.
20:49:45 <alise> AnMaster: Now, I /did/ code in shitty jokes, so you're not surprising me.
20:50:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, a few other countries do something similar.
20:50:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is one in Germany that is usable here in Sweden
20:50:28 <pikhq> And it's all on longwave, so it's kinda hard to not be able to pick up.
20:51:20 <Deewiant> Self-syncing clocks are too hi-fi for me
20:51:27 <alise> Deewiant: Do you ever just walk into Russia and go "HAHAHAHA RUSSIA"?
20:51:34 <alise> If so, why not? Your country borders Russia, you know.
20:51:37 <alise> You should do that.
20:51:40 <alise> You should go do that right now.
20:51:43 <alise> You could use a car.
20:51:59 <alise> You can drive to the border and then walk into Russia.
20:52:04 <alise> This is a great idea and you should do it immediately.
20:52:12 <Deewiant> It's also completely pointless
20:52:14 <alise> You could take a train.
20:52:24 <alise> You'd be in Russia, going "HAHAHAHA RUSSIA".
20:52:27 <alise> Therefore you should do it.
20:52:41 <alise> Why is goodness good? How can I answer such a tautological question?
20:55:07 <alise> So, I read Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency this morning.
20:55:28 <alise> If you're wondering whether it is good, why? Douglas Adams wrote it; of course it's good, you moron.
20:57:17 <coppro> it needs to be read twice to be fullly appreciated
20:57:38 <alise> Maybe I will; maybe I won't. I have a feeling Dirk would be a whole lot less amusing now that I know exactly how it all happened.
20:57:46 <alise> Also, you have an extra "l" there.
20:57:54 <alise> I will put it in a museum: "l"
20:58:12 <alise> "Reg, while possessed, unwittingly uses his time machine to amuse a young girl at a college dinner with a magic trick- removing a simple salt cellar and apparently concealing it in an old pot the girl had discovered-, inadvertently bringing back a faulty Electric Monk which the ghost had hoped to use itself- Electric Monks are designed to believe things for you so that the owner does not have to believe them themselves, but this Monk has suffered a fault and
20:58:12 <alise> is incapable of believing anything for longer than five minutes-, but instead lets it go free" --Wikipedia
20:58:18 <alise> TOO MANY DASHES AND COMMAS
20:58:47 <pikhq> The nesting is needed.
20:59:19 <alise> They could have at least used parentheses. Or actual dash characters.
20:59:32 <alise> So anyway... I want to write a typesetter. Please talk me out of it.
20:59:32 <Sgeo__> THat Electric Monk thing sounds Pratchett-esque.. or, wait, no, it's what my old religion book claimed about idols
20:59:50 <alise> pikhq: Did you write it? :P
21:00:54 <alise> I had a nerd orgasm at the Prolog reference. :P
21:01:00 <alise> Although, really, the whole book is an extended nerd orgasm.
21:02:43 <alise> Like I said; Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency.
21:03:02 <Sgeo__> Oh, should buy that at some point
21:03:49 <alise> Who wants to bet that Knuth will complete TAOCP before he dies? I, in turn, will counter-bet that he won't.
21:04:13 <Deewiant> I think it's rather obvious that he won't
21:04:45 <alise> I think he wants to complete it, and perhaps volume 4 is just his most intensive; I imagine he will be a bit quicker once his death looms.
21:04:56 <alise> I still bet he won't finish it, but I don't rule out the opposite.
21:05:01 <pikhq> Volume 4 is rather intensive.
21:05:02 <alise> Indeed, I hope I'm wrong.
21:05:33 <Deewiant> The first three did come out fairly quickly
21:05:33 <alise> This would be more like insurance: if it turns out Knuth dies before completing TAOCP, I'll be terribly sad; the money will be my payout.
21:05:51 <pikhq> Though volumes 5 through 7 will be on languages.
21:06:01 <Deewiant> So maybe it's possible; I thought they'd taken longer
21:06:22 <alise> Betting against your desired outcome, incidentally, is an awesome method of insurance.
21:07:12 <pikhq> It's been 37 years since volume 3 came out.
21:07:18 <alise> The Knuth Shuffle should be a dance.
21:07:25 <pikhq> Goodness *gracious* Knuth is taking a long time on 4.
21:07:29 <alise> pikhq: Aye, but he's... taking his time with Volume 4. And he sort of took a long break.
21:07:57 <alise> Deewiant: So he's probably writing 5 concurrently, then.
21:08:01 <alise> # Volume 5 - Syntactic Algorithms, planned (as of August 2006, estimated in 2015).
21:08:02 <alise> * Chapter 9 - Lexical scanning
21:08:02 <alise> * Chapter 10 - Parsing techniques
21:08:03 <alise> Well, that's not much.
21:08:14 <alise> Volume 5 - Syntactic Algorithms, planned (as of August 2006, estimated in 2015).
21:08:18 <pikhq> alise: Volume 4 is coming out this year.
21:08:22 <pikhq> Or early next year.
21:08:24 <alise> Anyway, volume 4 is the only one divided into subvolumes so far.
21:08:36 <alise> Volume 5 will be a two-chapter affair, like the first three, and so will be quite easy to write in comparison.
21:08:45 <alise> # Volume 6 - Theory of Context-Free Languages, planned.
21:08:50 <alise> I doubt you could write a ginormous volume on that.
21:08:54 <alise> # Volume 7 - Compiler Techniques, planned.
21:08:57 <alise> That'll be a big'un.
21:09:12 <pikhq> Especially given that that's what the book was supposed to be about initially.
21:09:38 <alise> He definitely won't write more than ten volumes; I bet he'll probably stop at around number 8. It's a nice round number in octal, and it lets him write a "tie-it-all-together" volume after seven.
21:10:58 <pikhq> Oh, volume 6 and 7 will apparently only be written if Knuth can still say anything relevant about their subjects.
21:11:26 <pikhq> If he can't, he will finish at volume 5, thereby having covered the core of imperative programming.
21:11:33 <alise> Knuth has a rather personal definition of "relevant", methinks.
21:11:42 <alise> He considers multi-core processors to be irrelevant, after all.
21:13:10 <tombom> i think he'll shove off his mortal coil before he gets round to all these
21:13:24 <alise> tombom: Nah; he can write a volume quickly, just not volume 4.
21:14:13 <pikhq> Fortunately for us, he is still in good health.
21:14:55 <alise> Knuth will come back as the Second Coming of Jesus. Thereupon he will impart unto us the final volumes of The Art of Computer Programming.
21:16:19 <coppro> don't forget he has to update volumes 1-3 with MMIX
21:16:41 <alise> coppro: Does he plan to?
21:18:01 <alise> Deewiant: It's less bizarre, IIRC.
21:19:21 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:21:04 <pikhq> The MMIX updating is actually being done by volunteers, and is mostly finished.
21:21:14 <pikhq> Deewiant: MMIX is a sane RISC.
21:21:25 <pikhq> MIX is a 40-year-old, crazy CISC.
21:21:43 <pikhq> It's a base 10 architecture.
21:22:00 <alise> The only sane ISC is an OISC!
21:23:20 <alise> We need more one-operand OISCs, other than RSSB.
21:23:36 <alise> pikhq: Wrong, it's a binary-decimal architecture.
21:23:46 <alise> When programmed in binary, each byte has 6 bits (values range from 0 to 63). In decimal, each byte has 2 decimal digits (values range from 0 to 99). Bytes are grouped into words of five bytes plus a sign. Most programs written for MIX will work in either binary or decimal, so long as they do not try to store a value greater than 63 in a single byte.
21:23:46 <alise> A word has the range −1,073,741,823 to 1,073,741,823 (inclusive) in binary mode, and −9,999,999,999 to 9,999,999,999 (inclusive) in decimal mode.
21:23:50 <alise> The sign-and-magnitude representation of integers in the MIX architecture distinguishes between “−0” and “+0.”
21:24:12 <alise> Knuth is bat-shit insane.
21:24:19 <ais523> alise: do you consider MiniMAX single-operand?
21:24:42 <alise> ais523: I'm not sure I even consider MiniMAX a thing.
21:24:51 <alise> But, no: "A MiniMAX program consists of a series of 3-word commands".
21:25:00 <ais523> alise: except that they overlap
21:25:07 <ais523> I haven't yet figured out if the commands have 0, 1, 2, or 3 operands
21:25:19 <alise> Well, I'd rather not think about it.
21:27:46 <alise> ais523: Of course, you yourself prompted a similar question later -- or was it earlier? -- with your proof.
21:27:54 <alise> What is the definition of an operand, really?
21:28:06 <ais523> I'm not convinced there is one, in corner cases
21:28:31 <ais523> even look at Haskell, and you'll be flummoxed as to how many operands many of the functions have
21:29:10 <alise> ais523: First line -- agreed; second line -- what?
21:29:15 <alise> You mean currying?
21:29:18 <alise> What Deewiant said.
21:29:50 <ais523> "exactly one" doesn't really work, because some take zero
21:30:12 <Deewiant> If you want to call those functions instead of constants, fair enough
21:31:03 <alise> ais523: a function is something of type ((->) a b) for some a and b.
21:31:18 <alise> ais523: Integer and other such things do not qualify for the title.
21:31:41 <ais523> yep, so you're saying that all functions (i.e. things not of base type) take one operand, everything else takes 0?
21:32:27 <alise> ais523: I'm saying that everything else doesn't take things at all, so it's a moot point.
21:38:35 <alise> pikhq: Do you have any idea why paracetamol is popular?
21:39:08 <pikhq> alise: The other non-aspirin painkillers only became legal for OTC use recently.
21:39:58 <pikhq> Paracetamol came to be used OTC in the 50s.
21:42:13 <alise> pikhq: Something wrong with aspirin?
21:42:44 <pikhq> alise: Rough on the stomach, can cause Reye's syndrome.
21:43:30 <alise> I can't swallow pills and needed a painkiller yesterday so I had ibuprofen capsule dust in water.
21:43:46 <alise> If I'd breathed with my nose, my mouth warned me, I would taste the most disgusting taste you can taste. I didn't, though.
21:44:27 <pikhq> Deewiant: Yes, but that's generally not an issue.
21:44:51 <alise> Hooray for ibuprofen, then.
21:45:05 <pikhq> And naproxen sodium.
21:45:22 <alise> "In the UK, 250 mg tablets of naproxen were approved for OTC sale under the brand name Feminax Ultra in 2008, for the treatment of primary dysmenorrhoea in women aged 15 to 50."
21:45:51 <pikhq> In the US it's approved for general painkiller use and has been since '94.
21:45:52 <alise> pikhq: So, basically, in the UK, no, not hooray for that :P
21:46:48 <alise> pikhq: OTOH, we also class melatonin as a prescription-only medicine, and outlaw cannabis.
21:47:11 <pikhq> I don't think you guys care about safety at *all* with your drugs.
21:47:26 <alise> Or getting stoned.
21:47:30 <pikhq> Not that the US is all that good about it.
21:57:35 <alise> I like magic-as-a-programming-language a bit more than I should probably like it.
21:58:59 <pikhq> alise: What're you reading now?
21:59:08 <alise> Nothing right now.
22:01:09 <pikhq> Inquiry: should I make curry tonight?
22:01:21 <pikhq> Upsides: curry is delicious. Downsides: curry is work.
22:02:51 <alise> How tired are you?
22:02:58 <pikhq> Not exceptionally.
22:03:10 <pikhq> It's currently 16:02.
22:04:38 <alise> When do you plan to curry?
22:04:57 <alise> pikhq: BTW, the original name for the dish is schönfinkel, not curry.
22:05:01 <pikhq> In an hour or two.
22:05:17 <alise> Curry actually originates from Russia, true fact.
22:05:27 <alise> pikhq: Are you feeling particularly motivated?
22:05:40 <pikhq> Not *exceptionally*.
22:05:45 <pikhq> However, curry *is* delicious.
22:13:59 <alise> pikhq: Just ... your situation is so mediocrely balanced that I cannot give any advice.
22:14:02 <alise> Just choose, dammit.
22:14:17 <pikhq> alise: I'm also hungry.
22:14:33 <alise> Do you want to make some fucking curry?
22:14:51 * pikhq covers alise in curry powder
22:15:37 <alise> That ... has disturbing implications given my current "name-gender" and the cursing in my previous line.
22:15:38 -!- calamari has joined.
22:16:57 <alise> I'm still covered in curry powder.
22:19:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:25:10 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:29:12 <alise> "University of Reddit"? Get the fuck out of my internet.
22:32:26 <Sgeo__> In HS, I took a Java course, meaning I don't need to take one now.
22:32:32 <Sgeo__> However, my teacher was HORRIBLE.
22:32:39 <Sgeo__> And I've heard good things about this teacher
22:32:44 <Sgeo__> So I'm considering taking it anyway
22:33:30 <alise> Seriously, you're considering taking a Java course.
22:33:32 <alise> Why are you so stupid? :|
22:33:35 <Sgeo__> I think I'm almost done with the BCS stuff
22:33:51 <Sgeo__> Meaning the rest of my undergraduate career will be boring stuff :/
22:37:05 <Sgeo__> The only Information Security course is an online course :/
22:38:15 <AnMaster> <alise> "University of Reddit"? Get the fuck out of my internet. <-- what?! where was that mentioned!?
22:38:24 <alise> http://universityofreddit.com/v2/
22:38:33 <alise> It's a shitty look-let's-pretend-to-teach-people-with-reddit-pots.
22:39:01 <alise> If you know something, you can teach it! So here's a list of people who promise that they're going to attempt to teach it! Honest! Please ignore the empty threads behind the curtain.
22:39:12 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:39:22 <alise> Multiple people, it seems.
22:39:29 <zzo38> I want to make template files for phpBB Can you please tell me if I have done it correctly? http://sprunge.us/WdYI
22:39:37 <zzo38> The #phpbb and #phpbb-coding channels are not help
22:39:44 <zzo38> I want other people's opinion too
22:39:50 -!- nooga has joined.
22:39:53 <alise> I suggest not using phpBB.
22:40:19 <AnMaster> what other FOSS forum software is there?
22:40:37 <zzo38> alise: I am not using phpBB.
22:40:47 <alise> AnMaster: Hmm... none. Forums are shit.
22:40:50 <zzo38> I just want to write a template for it anyways, as well as for other systems later
22:40:57 <alise> bbPress would be good, if it wasn't shit.
22:41:06 <AnMaster> alise, that is true for almost everything
22:41:09 <alise> Vanilla would be good, if its author wasn't a shitbag.
22:41:34 <AnMaster> [17373.892849] thinkpad_acpi: EC reports that Thermal Table has changed
22:42:18 <zzo38> At the current time I don't care which forums softwares are good or not (I'm not installing any of them). I just want to make template files
22:42:52 <AnMaster> zzo38, how are you going to be able to make template files without testing them...
22:43:19 <zzo38> I don't know, is there some way for a simple program to parse templates with filling in example data?
22:43:34 <zzo38> No PHP codes are included in phpBB templates.
22:43:39 <alise> Not for something so complicated as that, most likely.
22:43:41 <zzo38> It uses its own template codes
22:43:52 <alise> Uh ... I'd just install phpBB under the hypothetical situation in which I'd write a phpBB template; which I wouldn't.
22:44:07 <zzo38> I don't even have a database
22:44:08 <AnMaster> alise, but you are talking to zzo
22:44:24 <alise> zzo38: Write an SQL server with MySQL compatibility.
22:44:34 <alise> AnMaster: He isn't an alien, you know, and he's right in the room.
22:44:47 <zzo38> Is there any remote service that can test phpBB templates?
22:45:00 <zzo38> But I'm not even finished writing it yet
22:45:10 <AnMaster> alise, you mean, the least wrong room
22:45:34 <zzo38> I just want you to tell me if it is correct so far? Please look at the files tell me if it is right so far
22:45:35 <alise> He's right here, in the room.
22:45:44 <alise> zzo38: I know nothing of phpBB, like sane people.
22:46:17 <alise> But kudos for using a shar :P
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22:50:34 <alise> Oh no, I'm reading the SCP wiki.
22:56:19 <AnMaster> alise, try this link http://tinyurl.com/5cd2rl
22:56:30 <AnMaster> alise, it will prevent you from reading the SCP wiki for a while
22:56:53 <AnMaster> out of the ashes and into the fire
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23:03:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:06:12 <AnMaster> olsner, are you going to click the link I linked?
23:06:26 <AnMaster> err, link that I linked? wtf XF
23:07:50 <olsner> AnMaster: no, I've already went to SCP instead
23:08:35 <Sgeo__> alise, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/revised-entry
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23:14:32 <alise> Verified sighting of SCP-173 in ████, Wales, The United Kingdom. Nuclear bombardment authorized and executed. No survivors.
23:15:13 <alise> revised-entry is, I am pretty sure, a joke.
23:15:18 <alise> And no, that does fit the style.
23:17:24 <alise> Sgeo__: Novels -- or, more likely, collections of short stories/novellas -- set around the SCP foundation would be awesome.
23:17:29 <alise> Like the incident reports, only more novelly.
23:17:41 <alise> Unfortunately, you'd need to include all the relevant SCP files before the stories, and that'd probably give stuff away.
23:17:46 <Sgeo__> alise, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/foundation-tales
23:18:02 <alise> Or you could publish every single SCP in a volume you're expected to have, but reading it would be an encyclopedic journey.
23:18:03 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; main = print =<< (randomRIO(0,1))
23:18:31 <alise> Sgeo__: They're probably shitty though.
23:18:33 <alise> Fanfiction usually is.
23:18:49 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; main = print =<< (randomRIO (0,1))
23:18:57 <alise> Meanwhile, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-420-j.
23:20:51 <AnMaster> <alise> And no, that does fit the style. <-- yes but it breaks pretty much everything else
23:21:13 <AnMaster> <alise> Like the incident reports, only more novelly. <-- which ones?
23:21:24 <EgoBot> System.Random.randomRIO :: (System.Random.Random a) => (a, a) -> IO a
23:21:28 <alise> AnMaster: Um... there are a few, like the one where Kondraki tries to kill ... that girl.
23:21:35 <EgoBot> (=<<) :: (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
23:21:36 <alise> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/incident-reports-eye-witness-interviews-and-personal-logs
23:21:44 <AnMaster> alise, oh wait the dates are blocked out
23:21:52 <AnMaster> alise, I guess you could always put it at a later date then
23:22:02 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:22:13 <alise> AnMaster: true, it breaks real-world chronology
23:22:15 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
23:22:20 <alise> didn't think of that
23:22:34 <alise> AnMaster: alternatively, it was covered up
23:22:41 <alise> no survivors = in that area, not in wales entirely
23:22:58 <AnMaster> alise, nuclear carpet bombing of north america covered up?
23:23:25 <alise> <alise> Verified sighting of SCP-173 in ████, Wales, The United Kingdom. Nuclear bombardment authorized and executed. No survivors.
23:23:32 <alise> Some place in Wales == North America
23:23:45 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1)) >>= print
23:23:46 <calamari> CakeProphet: are programs still limited to a single line?
23:23:50 <AnMaster> "Containment Zone X1, formerly North and South America, is to be denied access. Following saturation nuclear bombing on ██/██/████, number of SCP-173 instances has been reduced."
23:23:57 <CakeProphet> calamari: don't think so. I've been importing things.
23:23:58 <alise> AnMaster: Oh. Fair enough then.
23:24:07 <CakeProphet> I wish there was some kind of error output
23:24:27 <alise> Working at the SCP foundation would be cool if you were high up enough and weren't prone to nightmares.
23:24:45 <alise> Myself, even the knowledge that the files were true would give me a mental breakdown.
23:25:16 <CakeProphet> !haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1) :: IO Int) >>= print
23:25:36 <CakeProphet> I guess not all Nums are Randoms, essentially.
23:25:49 <alise> CakeProphet: no, it just can't decide which to use
23:26:24 <CakeProphet> !addinterp decisionengine haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1) :: IO Int) >>= print
23:26:25 <EgoBot> Interpreter decisionengine installed.
23:27:02 <CakeProphet> alise: if only it knew that I didn't care which one it used. :P
23:27:32 <CakeProphet> but I guess this is why explicit type signatures are good.
23:28:08 <alise> GHCi often decides for you.
23:29:15 <CakeProphet> I once thought that random numbers in Haskell were a pain in the ass
23:29:27 <CakeProphet> but, it's really the same as any other language. Sort of.
23:29:58 <alise> Haskell can be a pain in the ass... its type theory is so limited!
23:30:12 <CakeProphet> I probably need to practice using Control.Monad and related functions.
23:30:43 <alise> calamari: it'll get killed
23:30:45 <alise> CakeProphet: a forkbomb
23:30:52 <alise> deobfuscating the function name:
23:30:57 <alise> bomb() { bomb | bomb & }; bomb
23:31:02 <alise> can you see how it works?
23:31:33 <calamari> python: src/filesysobj.c:132: filesys_obj_check: Assertion `obj->refcount > 0' failed.
23:31:43 <CakeProphet> I'm not very familiar with using subroutines in bash, but I get | and & and all that.
23:32:29 <alise> "A self-hosted implementation in IRP does not exist because if it did it would be quite annoying."
23:32:33 <CakeProphet> I assume it just sits and never halts as it waits for IO
23:32:34 <alise> CakeProphet: It just defines a command, basically.
23:32:36 <EgoBot> /usr/bin/import: /usr/lib/plash/lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.9' not found (required by /lib64/libglib-2.0.so.0)
23:32:44 <alise> CakeProphet: Er... no.
23:32:50 <alise> bomb() { bomb | bomb & }
23:32:53 <alise> So if we call bomb,
23:33:07 <alise> it spawns two new bombs in the background
23:33:10 <alise> and halts immediately
23:33:13 <alise> both those bombs then
23:33:17 <alise> spawn two new bombs in the background
23:33:19 <alise> and halt immediately
23:33:23 <alise> those 4 bombs then
23:33:25 <alise> spawn two new bombs in the background
23:33:26 <alise> and halt immediately
23:33:36 <alise> in a few seconds, the system is bogged down.
23:34:58 <alise> i think it's bomb | (bomb &)
23:35:04 <alise> as that's the only version that would keep the processes around.
23:36:28 <calamari> !haskell import Control.Monad; import System.Posix.Process; forkBomb = forever $ forkProcess forkBomb
23:37:06 <alise> calamari: it is not so flawed :)
23:38:29 <alise> calamari: EgoBot runs as its own user, in a chroot. Inside this chroot, it runs plash, which is a sandboxing solution for Debian. He uses this to turn off everything dangerous. Then, he sets extreme ulimits.
23:40:01 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin | tr '\n' ' '
23:40:06 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin | xargs echo
23:40:06 <EgoBot> 411toppm X11 [ a2p addftinfo addpart addr2line afmtodit animate anytopnm aot-compile appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as asciitopgm aspell aspell-import atktopbm austro autopoint awk b1ff base64 basename bashbug bc bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bioradtopgm bmptopnm bmptoppm brooklyn brus
23:40:17 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15104: line 1: X11: command not found
23:40:22 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15135: line 1: /usr/bin/X11: is a directory
23:40:26 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15162: line 1: /usr/bin/X: No such file or directory
23:40:29 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin/X11
23:40:42 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:57: Not in scope: `isAlpha'
23:40:42 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:70: Not in scope: `isSpace'
23:40:42 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:151: Not in scope: `isAlpha'
23:40:45 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:164: Not in scope: `isSpace'
23:40:49 <alise> <EgoBot> /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:245: Not in scope: `toLower'
23:40:55 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin/X11 | xargs echo
23:40:56 <EgoBot> 411toppm X11 [ a2p addftinfo addpart addr2line afmtodit animate anytopnm aot-compile appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as asciitopgm aspell aspell-import atktopbm austro autopoint awk b1ff base64 basename bashbug bc bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bioradtopgm bmptopnm bmptoppm brooklyn brus
23:40:57 <alise> !sh ls /usr/bin/X11 | xargs echo
23:40:58 <EgoBot> 411toppm X11 [ a2p addftinfo addpart addr2line afmtodit animate anytopnm aot-compile appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as asciitopgm aspell aspell-import atktopbm austro autopoint awk b1ff base64 basename bashbug bc bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bioradtopgm bmptopnm bmptoppm brooklyn brus
23:41:04 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /usr/bin/X11: Function not implemented
23:41:12 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /usr/bin/X11: Function not implemented
23:41:17 <alise> !ls ls -l /usr/bin/X11 | xargs echo
23:41:23 <EgoBot> ls (GNU coreutils) 7.4 Copyright (C) 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc. License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. Written by Richard M. Stallman and David MacKenzie.
23:41:25 <alise> !ls ls -l /usr/bin/X11 2>&1 | xargs echo
23:41:31 <alise> !sh ls -l /usr/bin/X11 2>&1 | xargs echo
23:41:32 <EgoBot> /bin/ls: /usr/bin/X11: Function not implemented lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 1 May 2 2009 /usr/bin/X11 -> .
23:41:36 <AnMaster> alise, how can ls -l fail like that
23:41:44 <alise> AnMaster: I dunno, plash disables all sorts
23:42:08 <alise> `run ls -l /usr/bin/X11
23:42:14 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 1 Jun 19 2009 /usr/bin/X11 -> .
23:42:14 <HackEgo> total 564 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jul 3 22:41 bin \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 61187 Jul 3 22:41 cube2.base64 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 45293 Jul 3 22:41 cube2.jpg \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 20 Jul 3 22:41 hack_gregor \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 10 Jul 3 22:41 hello.txt \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 166 Jul 3 22:41 help.txt \ -rw-r--r--
23:42:41 <alise> !haskell main@m=putStr"dickbutt ">>m
23:42:51 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: /usr/bin/XOrg: No such file or directory
23:42:55 <alise> you can do (Foo bar)@x or was it x@(Foo bar)
23:43:00 <alise> binds x to (Foo bar) and pattern matches
23:43:06 <AnMaster> `run ls /usr/bin/X* | xargs echo
23:43:08 <HackEgo> 2to3-2.6 X11 [ a2p addpart addr2line apropos apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-curses aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as awk axi-cache base64 basename bashbug bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bsd-from bsd-write c++
23:43:16 <AnMaster> `run ls -d /usr/bin/X* | xargs echo
23:43:18 <alise> so main@m or m@main whichever it is assigns main and "pattern matches" it as m inside the body
23:45:48 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.15940: line 1: tree: command not found
23:46:11 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:46:17 <EgoBot> /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
23:46:23 <EgoBot> I am a man from the future
23:46:42 <EgoBot> plash: warning: setuid/gid bit not honoured on `/bin/mount'
23:48:20 <ais523> hmm, presumably mount doesn't work very well if it doesn't run setuid
23:48:37 <calamari> ais523: seems to ave shown me what I wanted to know
23:50:48 <zzo38> Here is something in D&D game http://sprunge.us/gGec OK, your turn
23:51:58 <zzo38> !sh echo <CTCP>PING<CTCP>
23:53:10 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:53:34 <alise> chickenzilla: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
23:53:54 <alise> Hey, I have a commit there. Cool.
23:54:31 <CakeProphet> I should run my MUD server off of HackEgo. :P
23:56:00 <EgoBot> plash: warning: setuid/gid bit not honoured on `/bin/ping'
23:56:42 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.16397: line 1: ifconfig: command not found
23:57:31 <Sgeo__> Why does ping need setuid?
23:58:09 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.16621 \ wunderbar_emporium