00:01:12 i described it few minutes ago 00:01:25 nooga, which lines 00:02:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:02:01 oh up there 00:02:04 nooga, meh 00:02:15 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.07.04 15:18:09 00:02:27 nooga, two views how? 00:02:33 nooga, I don't get that 00:02:53 it would show how memory looks in two ways 00:03:10 one - 1d array of addressed cells 00:03:20 and second - boxes with arrows 00:03:23 uhu 00:03:32 nooga, and what if I pass you a void* ? 00:03:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:03:47 ah, details details ;f 00:03:59 maybe a dot? :D 00:04:04 nooga, or what if I pass you a intptr_t 00:04:24 that one can reasonably be expected to not be quite what it seems like 00:04:35 nooga, oh also function pointers should be fun 00:04:44 eh 00:04:57 this would be for basic education 00:05:08 they don't have a clue that function pointers exist :D 00:05:21 nooga, qsort() ? 00:05:31 meh 00:05:37 no qsort 00:05:42 not C then 00:05:54 that is what ISO says 00:06:06 i was talking about simple subset of C that has structures and pointers 00:06:11 I see 00:06:12 and functions 00:06:16 and some basic types 00:06:20 to explain the idea 00:06:35 nooga, *((float*)&myint) 00:07:10 (note: this is a bad idea in general, use unions and rely on a slightly more reliable non-standard conforming behaviour 00:07:19 ) 00:07:34 at least that way the alias analysis won't end up all confused 00:08:03 uh 00:08:12 right 00:09:17 nooga, C without all these kind of strange corners and hacks would be no fun at all 00:10:03 if they get the general idea they are able to understand these hacks in the real C 00:11:26 nooga, whiteboard. Try it. I think it worked on the other students 00:12:33 but i would like to give them a toy so that they would be able to experiment at home 00:13:10 nooga, wget gcc? 00:13:11 ;P 00:13:28 nooga, also if they are using windows shit: every university seems to have MSDNAA 00:13:29 -_- 00:13:58 heck I have MSDNAA through university 00:13:59 yeah 00:14:19 but neither gcc nor msvc EXPLAIN what happens during the execution 00:14:51 nooga, gdb! 00:14:57 well 00:15:03 gdb is extremely confusing for newbies 00:15:06 not explains as such 00:15:14 more like can be threatened to tell you 00:15:18 reluctantly 00:15:20 :D 00:15:43 nooga, iirc the msvc debugger was very graphical and such 00:15:55 it is 00:16:00 but it's not enough 00:16:01 :D 00:16:08 nooga, yeah MSVC doesn't do C99 00:16:19 so utter utter fail 00:17:31 * AnMaster ponders multiclassing in nwn 00:18:41 lvl 10 human true neutral fighter. Multiclassing with some class able to cast magic 00:18:42 which one 00:18:43 hm 00:20:37 nwn huh 00:20:42 yeah 00:20:50 nooga, neverwinter nights 00:21:41 yeah, i know 00:21:47 i played that few years ago 00:22:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:22:25 nooga, any hints on multiclassing? 00:22:38 nooga, first time I played it 00:23:32 nah, i don't remember anything 00:23:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:32:37 -!- Guest45042 has joined. 00:32:52 Is there anybody in here? 00:33:21 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:33:52 -!- Guest45042 has quit (Client Quit). 00:58:11 http://pastie.org/1030623 00:58:17 this is awesome 00:58:19 happy parsing 00:59:11 lol 00:59:27 pus indeed 01:00:15 actually it was a first test 01:00:26 of my ultimate stupidness machine 01:02:10 indeed 01:05:00 no, actually it's fretty useful atm 01:05:05 pretty* 01:08:48 huge progress was made 01:11:41 you know, a large percentage of figures in books, games, movies and so on, can be nicely put into one of the classical D&D alignments 01:11:56 while very few "real-world" persons can 01:12:09 nooga, alise: ever noticed that? 01:12:29 lol 01:12:52 alise, this means we are rather bad at inventing realistic stories 01:12:55 or that reality is boring 01:13:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:13:02 I suspect both 01:13:09 hah 01:13:21 I think stories are unrealistic for a reason, yeah 01:13:30 wow 01:13:51 but alise is _definitely_ some chaotic alignment 01:14:02 chaotic neutral I think 01:14:02 :D 01:14:35 nooga, you... I couldn't put an alignment on 01:15:18 :F 01:15:39 personally I always liked playing true neutral in games where you can select that. Though that doesn't mean I am true neutral myself 01:15:44 maybe he's ... not human? 01:15:46 whatever ... ;| 01:16:14 olsner, iirc non-sapient beings in D&D are true neutral? 01:16:50 non-human != non-sapient ... but of course D&D includes non-human species anyways, like elves and stuff (right?) 01:17:08 olsner, yes 01:17:15 olsner, and they can have alignment afaik 01:17:20 mmmm... bedtime 01:17:24 c'ya 01:17:47 cya 01:18:02 it is bedtime here too, but I refuse to sleep instead of watching doctor who 01:19:04 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:21:47 nooga is chaotic good 01:21:50 AnMaster is boring preist 01:22:04 *priest 01:22:59 i think most people here are chaotic 01:23:26 priest? 01:23:28 nah :P 01:23:42 ais523 is lawful good, but there's some chaotic in him too... 01:23:44 I am not familiar with these alignments - what am I? 01:23:49 alise, oh yes I agree on that 01:23:51 he's lawful good but not a goody-gooder 01:23:54 olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_&_Dragons%29 01:24:00 {lawful,neutral,chaotic} {good,neutral,evil} 01:24:10 lawful good = obvious 01:24:11 It must be said: lawful good != lawful stupid. 01:24:18 lawful neutral = gray hat 01:24:24 lawful evil = CEO 01:24:36 neutral good = um... this one doesn't make so much sense 01:24:39 neutral = booring 01:24:48 alise, so I'm true neutral then? 01:24:50 :P 01:24:50 neutral evil = legally grey, morally black 01:25:01 chaotic good = oklopol 01:25:12 chaotic neutral = barbarian :P 01:25:19 chaotic evil = the joker 01:25:30 good summary 01:25:35 alise, but you need examples for all 01:25:48 eh, good enough to explain :P 01:25:57 alise, yes but I want an example for neutral evil 01:26:04 it was fun :P 01:26:35 olsner, and I can't classify you, don't know you well enough 01:26:39 Lawful good = Superman, Chaotic good = Batman. 01:26:40 :P 01:26:43 neutral evil is, literally, someone who has a regular respect for the law... could steal if they had a really, really good reason to 01:26:49 but deep down they're evil 01:26:52 it's not a very realistic class 01:27:02 People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships. 01:27:03 pikhq, chaotic good = robin hood 01:27:04 neutral is basically "normal person" 01:27:09 pikhq, I think that one is even better 01:27:10 AnMaster: Another good example. 01:27:15 there aren't many actual altruists who would make sacrifices 01:27:18 I think I'm neutral/lawful good 01:27:19 chaotic is a bad name, really 01:27:28 olsner: you probably aren't good 01:27:35 Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others. 01:27:35 alise, that was nasty ;P 01:27:35 Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master. 01:27:35 People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships. 01:27:47 no 01:27:51 it's just that good is almost never found outside of fiction 01:27:54 the good side of neutral, yes 01:27:54 true 01:27:59 good? ais523 is the only example i've seen 01:28:02 alise, I definitely feel like a true neutral a lot of the time 01:28:04 per those definitions 01:28:09 oh yes 01:28:24 I'm definitely chaotic, I don't really care about the law much at all 01:28:27 I agree ais is definitely lawful good 01:28:33 only what i consider moral 01:28:40 right, maybe rather neutral than good 01:28:40 alise, yes you are chaotic in every sense of the word 01:28:41 I'd like to be chaotic good, but I'm probably chaotic neutral 01:28:49 alise, chaotic neutral *definitely* 01:28:56 you said chaotic good before :P 01:28:59 er no wait 01:29:00 you said neutral 01:29:02 yeah i agree then 01:29:02 alise, yep 01:29:15 i dunno, batman may be closer to chaotic neutral 01:29:18 he can be pretty vicious 01:29:24 alise, or as tv tropes put it: totally unpredictable lunatic 01:29:31 chaotic neutral that is 01:29:35 I'd like to be Chaotic Good, hut I'm more Lawful Neutral 01:29:36 also the adam west batman was ... not chaotic 01:29:52 adam west? 01:29:53 Well, maybe "like to be" is the wrong phrase 01:29:55 AnMaster: I think I lean towards the good side, though 01:30:01 I don't ever try to hurt someone 01:30:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28TV_series%29 01:30:07 the thing that made batman famous 01:30:12 alise, maybe somewhat 01:30:17 http://www.thedarkknight.matthewclose.co.uk/AdamwestBatman.jpg 01:30:23 * 01:30:28 ADAM WEST 01:30:36 Slereah highlights 'adam west' 01:30:57 alise, XD 01:30:57 alise: Sadly, "ham" is not an alignment. 01:31:04 pikhq: wat. 01:31:04 I think about Batman all day long 01:31:04 pikhq, wut? 01:31:12 Slereah: What about the night???? 01:31:26 alise, so what is your alignment? 01:31:28 I dream of Batman. 01:31:29 err 01:31:30 Slereah, ^ 01:31:34 damn tab 01:31:34 wow, TeX syntax is very unsuited to keyword arguments 01:31:46 Slereah is ... hmm 01:31:55 I'M BATMAN 01:32:00 alise, oerjan is chaotic I think 01:32:00 Can't say for sure 01:32:06 Slereah doesn't seem chaotic, not really 01:32:13 he might be a dirty pirate but... 01:32:20 neutral, I guess 01:32:26 alise, true neutral? 01:32:31 oerjan isn't chaotic, when has oerjan ever broken the law? 01:32:37 he's cackly, yes, but that's just irc :P 01:32:40 alise, oh hm good point. 01:32:47 i'd call oerjan another true neutral 01:32:51 alise, like me? 01:32:54 "In the Complete Scoundrel sourcebook Batman, Dick Tracy and Indiana Jones are cited as examples of lawful good characters." 01:32:59 clearly an adam west watcher 01:33:03 http://i26.tinypic.com/t7iujq.jpg 01:33:12 alise, yet you said true neutral was boring. You never considered oerjan boring? 01:33:17 AnMaster: well no 01:33:22 but, edgecases 01:33:25 "Examples of Neutral Good characters include Zorro, and Spider-Man." 01:33:30 spider-man is less lawful than batman? 01:33:32 this page is an abomination 01:34:02 Batman is of every alignment 01:34:03 http://i26.tinypic.com/t7iujq.jpg <- hah 01:35:06 moriarty is badass 01:35:42 "Who else would kick a man for eating ice cream?" XD 01:36:00 heh 01:36:24 "Lara Croft, Lucy Westenra from Dracula and Han Solo in his early Star Wars appearance are neutral." 01:36:46 I agree about Han Solo in the first half of the first movie 01:36:51 (produced that is) 01:37:26 alise, he is a mercenary basically. They tend to be neutral, possibly even true neutral 01:37:39 maybe lawful neutral *shrug* 01:37:47 chaotic evil is awesome 01:38:02 alise, too destructive for my taste 01:38:09 chaotic good is a bit rubbish, it's just antihero 01:38:12 and antihero is way too overdone 01:38:12 alise, neutral evil however is awesome 01:38:13 by now 01:38:17 Here, have this handy map : http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Divers9/The_Planescape_Multiverse_by_zen79.jpg 01:38:19 AnMaster: yeah, but chaotic evil is the Joker 01:38:22 chaotic evil destroys the universe 01:38:28 alise, chaotic good is hero as well. Robin Hood for example 01:38:44 well true 01:39:02 alise, I would say anti-hero is in some neutral 01:39:07 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Detective-33-Bat.png "...Literally!" 01:41:47 oh god, I found "dungeons and lolcats" when googling -_- 01:42:01 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/77/Batbed.png <-- not homoerotic whatsoever. Nope. 01:42:09 AnMaster : link 01:42:27 Slereah, it isn't even very good 01:42:31 Every adoptive parent sleep with their orphans, doncha know? 01:44:17 Slereah, IMO it is piss poor, but see http://splinteredportals.com/cat_alignment/ if you are really interested 01:44:56 Lolcats became pisspoor a long time ago. 01:45:04 yes 01:45:11 "LoLcats" 01:45:15 It's not a lolcat, it's a LoLcat 01:45:21 Laugh out loud cats 01:45:25 http://splinteredportals.com/cat_alignment/5_true_neutral.jpg How is that true neutral at all? 01:45:30 alise, exactly 01:45:34 I said it was piss poor 01:47:18 * alise wonders what to add to leaden. Actual UI, perhaps?!?! 01:47:28 Indentation? Oh, the possibilities. 01:48:18 indent.py gets its own file because indentation logic is pretty damn complex. 01:48:39 The question is, how many lines before of context do you need to determine the next line's indentation... 01:48:41 I guess just one. 01:49:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:49:21 this image was good though (not lolcats but still awesome): http://vampjac.com/lj/humor/gygax/multiclassing.jpg 01:49:37 man, that would have made lotr like 50 times better. 01:49:39 alise: omg are you writing your editor in python? 01:49:44 alise, :D 01:50:26 olsner: is that a sin? I don't like Python, but I can't think of anything else that it'd be nice and easy to use gtk from and do stuff like this. 01:50:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 01:50:52 AnMaster: "Fuck Mordor... I have a nuclear bomb and a large swath of open desert. You in?" 01:51:00 XD 01:51:48 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:51:49 AnMaster : Good guy, bad guy, I'm the one with a gun 01:52:46 XD 01:53:21 alise: if you don't like it, I would say that it is indeed might be a sin 01:53:53 olsner: Why did you say it? 01:54:22 because I don't like python either 01:55:51 olsner: how would you write a short little program that uses gtk? 01:57:04 good question... I have only used any substantial amounts of gtk from C 01:59:11 olsner: and, as you know, that is painful 01:59:42 but won't that part be exactly as painful from python, with the added pain of python itself? 01:59:48 alise, C as such is painful 02:00:11 alise, but python's GC is really wtf 02:00:56 alise, so wikipedia is down 02:01:04 AnMaster: gobject 02:01:07 makes c ten times more painful 02:01:12 olsner: no, because python actually has an object system 02:01:21 and pygtk hides gobject inside it 02:02:05 hmm, okay, maybe python is ... appropriate for this case 02:02:39 it's not all that painful as long as you don't try and do anything clever :P 02:06:00 olsner: i basically treat it as a cleaned up pascal that calls namespaces "classes" 02:06:24 and has weird structure initialisation syntax 02:06:39 aha! maybe that's just the problem... trying to be smart in python doesn't work, so you have to keep it down to python's level 02:06:48 Pretty danged weird initialisation syntax. 02:07:27 olsner: precisely 02:07:35 pikhq: yeah, every namespace contains one and only one structure 02:07:42 you initialise the structure by function-calling the namespace 02:07:43 go figure 02:07:55 hmm... very much time for bed now, work starts in <7h 02:08:00 and then functions in the namespace that take the structure can be called with the syntax: 02:08:02 foo.bar() 02:08:03 meaning 02:08:05 I really, really don't get why Python doesn't do TCO. 02:08:07 namespace.bar(foo) 02:08:17 olsner: basically you have to put yourself in guido's shoes 02:08:19 and it works perfectly 02:08:29 python is basically an ffi with control structures :P 02:08:54 in fact, i have only one if statement in my entire editor 02:08:58 and no loops 02:09:07 quite an achievement 02:09:13 Pretty danged weird initialisation syntax. <-- you mean the __init__ ? 02:09:21 AnMaster: ARGH ARGH ARGH 02:09:28 yeah, python code usually ends up quite loopy 02:09:31 I hate Python's use of underscores. 02:09:32 pikhq, or what do you mean? 02:09:41 pikhq, oh agreed 02:09:50 AnMaster: if you treat classes as namespaces with one structure in them 02:09:57 It makes the C code in me feel like there's a lot of almost-guaranteed-to-break magic going on. 02:09:58 then the initialisation syntax makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :P 02:10:01 pikhq, but fuck newlib headers then. I swear I saw a tripple-underscore somewhere there 02:10:05 I think it was in time.h 02:10:07 not sure 02:10:08 pikhq: You have C code in you? 02:10:14 Coder. 02:11:03 * alise writes a very simple python indentation function 02:11:32 * alise continues editing leaden in leaden 02:11:40 i love it already 02:12:01 ah, so it's already the editor equivalent of a self-hosting compiler 02:12:06 nice work 02:12:24 olsner: yeah, it has not a single ui element other than an editor window opened to a preset source file and a scrollbar 02:12:39 that editor (just a gtk sourceview) is set to auto-indent (dumbly; just repeating the last line's indentation), and syntax highlight 02:12:54 it automatically saves the file to disk on every keypress (this is a feature) and automatically reloads the file on any outside change 02:13:01 s/ $// 02:13:12 it has unlimited undo. 02:13:56 but not yet VCS:ed undo? 02:14:06 olsner: the plan is that Ctrl+S is a vcs commit 02:14:15 and saving is completely automatic 02:14:28 rationale: i can never make myself use vcses, but saving is easy, so just make a vcs the save functionality 02:14:31 tada, versioned filesystem 02:14:33 sounds cool :) 02:14:43 anyway, I shall finally go and sleep now 02:14:45 bye 02:20:04 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:23:33 then the initialisation syntax makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :P <-- you mean the __init__ right? 02:23:36 or which part? 02:23:45 if we treat "class Foo(object):" 02:23:48 as defining a namespace Foo 02:23:52 okay... 02:23:54 containing one unnamed structure 02:24:05 (which is how I code python because it lets you treat it as a strange, cleaned-up pascal with nice libraries) 02:24:09 (instead of a godawful language) 02:24:12 then Foo() is a really weird syntax 02:24:14 I'm not sure I agree a class is a namespace. I thought python did modules as namespaces 02:24:17 new Foo.struct, yes 02:24:18 Foo(), no 02:24:23 AnMaster: it's about how you think about it 02:24:29 if you treat python classes as /classes/, it's the worst OOP ever 02:24:40 alise, namespaces don't tend to have a self pointer 02:24:44 if you treat them as namespaces that are also the only way to define structures, and the structure definition is somehow implicit 02:24:46 it all makes more sense 02:24:48 AnMaster: they don't 02:24:55 __init__ is just a special namespace method, given a newly-created structure 02:24:58 (often called "self") 02:25:01 it then sets up this structure 02:25:05 all the rest are just functions taking that structure 02:25:14 usually you call the structure parameter "self" but that's not required 02:25:16 um 02:25:18 there's also some weird sugar 02:25:24 structure.foo() is namespace_of_structure.foo(structure) 02:25:26 how weird is that? 02:25:29 (note: all of this is actually true) 02:25:40 (apart from literally being namespaces) 02:25:42 alise, if you consider it, C++ actually do it something like that too 02:25:47 internally I mean 02:25:52 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:25:53 well yes, but python has it explicit 02:26:02 which lets you just treat it as a really strange language where structures are implicit 02:26:02 alise, yes that is an important difference 02:26:10 haha 02:26:14 it actually works really well, using classes for namespaces 02:26:23 like, it's how you're supposed to do python, rather than actually separating concerns 02:28:00 i /think/ i just wrote a tab handler 02:28:06 File "leaden.py", line 66 02:28:07 if at start of line: 02:28:07 ^ 02:28:07 SyntaxError: invalid syntax 02:28:07 or not 02:28:32 alise, "at start of line" is only valid in "Plain English" I bet 02:28:36 ;P 02:29:29 bbl 02:31:06 Holy Fucking Shit, it WORKS! 02:31:13 what does? 02:32:59 I don't really like everything about Python, but I think the way that classes work is not too bad 02:34:00 the way they work on the C side... 02:34:02 is NASTY 02:34:04 Here is a PNG file of the example Icochash file that I posted before: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/icochash.png 02:34:04 alise, agree? 02:34:13