00:00:31 <coppro> pikhq: C IS NOT A FUNCTIONAL LANGUAGE !!!1!!!1!1!
00:00:57 <Sgeo> How dare you suggest that it takes me two weeks to turn pages 7,500 times!
00:01:17 <pikhq> coppro: No, but functions are a very simple way of splitting up functionality in C.
00:01:28 <pikhq> And as such I use them extensively.
00:01:35 <coppro> yeah, <3 functions generally
00:02:25 <aliseiphone> { char c; while(!ueof(uin)) { if(ubad(ugetb(uin, &c))) cry(); uputb(uout, c); } }
00:03:24 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Maybe capital U prefix for clarity.
00:04:13 <pikhq> { char c; Uerror(uin, cry); while(!ueof(uin)) uputb(uout, c); }
00:04:15 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:04:25 <aliseiphone> Ubyte b; while(!Ueof(Uin)) { if(Ubad(Ugetb(Uin, &b))) cry(); Uputb(Uout, c); }
00:05:00 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Repeat after me: I Will Not Use Non-Local Control Flow.
00:05:18 <Sgeo> I Will Not Mindlessly Obey Alise
00:05:33 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Repeat after me: I Will Not Require Large Amounts of Boiler Plate For Error Handling
00:05:48 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Boiler Plate For Error Handling Makes People Not Do It
00:06:24 <aliseiphone> Yes, And Is A Generic "OOPS PROGGY IS FUCKED" Really Any Better?
00:06:32 <Sgeo> I'm going to look for a comparision of eReaders
00:07:00 <pikhq> POSIX says they're bytes. Because POSIX likes lies.
00:09:50 <aliseiphone> Because TCP doesn't want to be useful for local process communication and it masturbates to port clashes.
00:09:54 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Because FUCK YOU that's why.
00:09:57 <Sgeo> "Because this format locks you into a single device (and because you cant get library books on a Kindle), we recommend getting an ePub-compatible ereader and not a Kindle. "
00:10:19 <pikhq> aliseiphone: WHY BSD SOCKETS
00:10:25 <pikhq> That's a general question
00:10:38 <Sgeo> Strings aren't likely to be unique unless you're using URIs, and do you want to send a URI with every.. packet, I guess?
00:11:29 <aliseiphone> Strings are more USEFUL - http, mpd, gnome - and much less likely to clash than "1234".
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00:12:49 <Sgeo> Wasn't TCP designed when space was more of an issue?
00:15:28 <aliseiphone> Double it. 5 letters, accounting for terminator.
00:15:37 <pikhq> Actually, 2 ASCII characters.
00:16:26 <aliseiphone> Of course theoretically you can have ceil(log2(27)*5)
00:16:52 <pikhq> Oh, just encoding the (upper or lower case) Roman alphabet. Mmkay.
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00:19:44 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Of course, really we should remove the source field too.
00:20:02 <aliseiphone> (Source independent networking is jawsome.)
00:23:18 * Sgeo pokes aliseiphone with the idea of a Kobo
00:23:57 <Sgeo> http://chamberfour.com/ereader-comparison/#kobo
00:24:58 <aliseiphone> pikhq: In fact, y'know what? Condolences; you're on the aliseOS team.
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00:29:19 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Idea: picokernel that provides two things;: fork(), and an abstract / namespace.
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00:29:40 <aliseiphone> Process communication is done by giving your child a file to talk to you with.
00:31:51 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Issues: awesome or MOST AWESOME?
00:33:51 -!- coppro has joined.
00:33:57 <pikhq> aliseiphone: How's process communication going to work, semantically?
00:34:20 <pikhq> Something lazy like "We hand you a page that's shared between the two processes."?
00:35:00 * Sgeo goes off to read Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
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00:35:14 <Sgeo> If I can stop distracting myself with the computer
00:35:18 * pikhq wonders why it always ends up being more complex than that
00:37:20 <Sgeo> Must... not.. check IRC every two seconds...
00:37:35 * pikhq should look to see what L4 does
00:39:50 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Oh, okay. So, we've got fork() and kernelspace 9P.
00:39:55 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:40:22 <pikhq> And by "kernel-space" I of course mean "just enough of 9P to support it easily."
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00:55:03 <nooga> alise: stop adversiting colloquy for gayphone
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01:01:59 <Sgeo> When alise gets back, remind me to thank him
01:02:04 <Sgeo> This is a great book
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01:13:17 <nooga> Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency ?
01:14:24 <coppro> hey, I'm trying to identify a port on my laptop
01:14:39 <nooga> pan lodowego odrodu is definately awesome
01:14:46 <nooga> if it comes to fantasy
01:14:49 <coppro> it's as thick as a USB port but a bit longer with a single tapered corner
01:15:00 <coppro> it has a funny D as a logo
01:15:38 <coppro> the pins are on a piece of plastic extending out in the middle of the port
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01:32:30 <CakeProphet> pikhq: I wonder how many of us regularly frequent #haskell
01:32:49 <pikhq> Decent chunk of this channel.
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02:28:08 <Sgeo_> coppro, am I allowed to look at previous chapters during reading?
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02:55:38 <jberryman> this is a chan for esoteric programming languages, no?
02:56:05 <jberryman> okay I'm in the right place, thanks. :)
02:56:25 <CakeProphet> it's pretty exciting here. You can perform unsafe IO
02:56:48 <CakeProphet> !haskell performUnsafeIO $ putStrLn "Hello, World!"
02:57:21 <jberryman> !haskell unsafePerformIO $ putStrLn "Hello, World!"
02:57:47 <CakeProphet> I don't remember what module unsafePerformIO is in
02:59:05 <CakeProphet> jberryman: do you know about the website/wiki and all of that?
02:59:40 <jberryman> ahh, I have of course run across it
03:00:23 <kwertii> are there any academic specialists in esoteric langs?
03:00:44 <Slereah> Depends what you mean by that, I guess
03:00:55 <Slereah> Esoteric languages are sometimes linked to computation theory
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03:01:19 <Slereah> A lot of esolangs derive from mathematical research
03:01:32 <jberryman> Slereah: seems like more often than not
03:01:49 <Slereah> The math part most often comes in Turing tarpits
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03:05:51 <Slereah> Maybe the academic version of Lisp
03:05:59 <pikhq> Now *Java*, that's esoteric.
03:06:21 <pikhq> Slereah: All you need is def and lambda, man. :)
03:06:39 <Slereah> But then that's just regular lambda calculus
03:06:51 <oerjan> incorrect. you don't need def.
03:06:52 <Slereah> While with the six functions, you don't need any lambda
03:07:06 <pikhq> oerjan: For Lisp semantics.
03:07:13 <Slereah> cons, car, cdr, atom, eq and if
03:07:37 <pikhq> Those are all just lambda in disquise.
03:08:03 <Slereah> But only because every turing complete system can be translated into one another
03:08:46 <Slereah> So are lambda calculus and logical combinators
03:08:49 <pikhq> Cons, car, and cdr in particular are very very simple functions.
03:08:53 <CakeProphet> ...the thing that I don't really like about all of this theoretical stuff
03:08:55 <Slereah> And yet I wouldn't call them the same thing :o
03:09:07 <Slereah> Actually, sometimes it does
03:09:17 <pikhq> CakeProphet: IO's generally trivial.
03:09:18 <Slereah> Like the original Turing machine had thought of IO
03:09:29 <Slereah> Sometimes it's pretty hard to implement
03:09:34 <pikhq> Slereah: No it didn't. You just had a tape.
03:09:41 <Slereah> At least in any other way than enter something at the beginning
03:10:00 <Slereah> What he called a choice machine
03:10:01 <pikhq> Your closest to "IO" is you set the initial tape state and can look at the final one.
03:10:13 <pikhq> Not a Turing machine. :P
03:10:47 <Slereah> He just didn't call it a Turing machine because it would be kind of arrogant to call it after yourself
03:11:59 <CakeProphet> Yogi Bear Encourages Vile Neanderthal Intercourse With Veinty Tissues
03:12:27 <jberryman> speaking of not speaking of IO: does anyone have examples of programs written in Iota or Jot that "do something useful"?
03:12:58 <jberryman> the only examples I've seen are programs that don't termintate
03:13:37 <CakeProphet> Let's see what fungot has to say about that.
03:13:38 <fungot> CakeProphet: oh my. i have a list of things like airline software and the internet. serious business. small business suffers
03:14:56 <pikhq> Hmm. Berryman... I knew a one Berryman once.
03:15:15 <CakeProphet> I personally don't know anything about Iota or Jot.
03:15:37 <pikhq> Anyways: I seem to recall Iota and Jot not having very useful IO.
03:15:52 <pikhq> (though I may be completely and utterly wrong)
03:15:56 <jberryman> pikhq: it has no IO, really doesn't have a notion of data
03:16:00 <Slereah> I recall them being horrid and rather cheating in their "smallest number of function" thing
03:16:24 <Slereah> Iota and Jot don't have any, but Zot has, IIRC
03:16:33 <pikhq> Slereah: Not really. It's a single combinator. They just suck at documenting it as such. :P
03:16:50 <Slereah> pikhq : Yeah, but not a "pure" combinator
03:17:10 <Slereah> You can't define what it does without the help of other combinators or lambda calculus
03:18:13 <jberryman> Slereah: what sort of combinator would be "pure" in that case?
03:18:24 <Slereah> Even the guy who invented combinators knew that it was bogus
03:18:41 <pikhq> Slereah: I'm pretty sure all combinators are defined in terms of lambda calculus.
03:18:44 <Slereah> jberryman : One you can define by its action on arbitrary elements, I guess
03:19:03 <CakeProphet> one day the obsession with eliminating primitives will find some crazy way to make a formal system with absolutely no primitives...
03:19:05 <Slereah> You can't define iota's operator through that
03:19:07 <pikhq> CONGRATS that's lambda calculus.
03:19:24 <Slereah> It can be defined by it, sure
03:19:33 <Slereah> (also combinators are older than LC, so there)
03:19:45 <pikhq> THATS WHAT YOU WROTE
03:19:51 <oerjan> jberryman: Lazy-K has IO and allows Iota and/or Jot as input syntax, iirc
03:19:51 <pikhq> YOU FAIL AT DEMONSTRATING YOUR POINT
03:20:03 <fungot> CakeProphet: there was a better way than this? :-p
03:20:12 <Slereah> That is not what I wrote >:|
03:20:35 <fungot> CakeProphet: i bet you're trying to do it in scheme? your motivation affects what resources i will recommend.
03:20:43 <pikhq> Slereah: No, you wrote the near equivalent. Oooh, I can also make it valid Haskell.
03:20:55 <CakeProphet> ha. No, fungot, I was actually thinking of Haskell
03:20:56 <fungot> CakeProphet: what is siscweb? i dont know how
03:21:00 <Slereah> pikhq : That's like saying that I wrote set theory when I do 1+1 = 2
03:21:09 <pikhq> First: Kxy -> x; Then: Kxy = x; Finally: k x y = x
03:21:24 <pikhq> Slereah: No, it's like saying you wrote 1+1 == 2 when you wrote 1+1 = 2
03:21:46 <Slereah> You do not need to write the lambdas in such a thing
03:21:55 <Slereah> You can just show the action of elements on the function
03:21:57 <pikhq> Insert three characters and it's magically lambda calculus.
03:22:00 <Slereah> While you can't with iota's function
03:22:12 <jberryman> oerjan: thanks. I was aware of Lazy-K, but I'm actually trying to grok how they encode numbers in Lazy-K
03:22:31 <oerjan> jberryman: church numerals i would think
03:22:43 <CakeProphet> I think I broke fungot, or he has a spam limit or something.
03:22:49 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_Bird
03:22:59 <pikhq> jberryman: It's just an infinite list of church numerals.
03:23:59 <jberryman> but don't the combinators need to work on other combinators?
03:24:16 <Slereah> They can work on arbitrary elements
03:24:17 <pikhq> Slereah: Would you agree that U=\f->((fS)K) is a higher order function that only uses function application?
03:24:20 <jberryman> i.e. how can I feed the SKI conbinator calculus church numerals?
03:24:24 <Slereah> But usually they're used on other combinators
03:24:48 <oerjan> jberryman: church numerals can be abstraction eliminated like any lambda calculus terms
03:25:12 <pikhq> jberryman: With S and K you can represent any arbitrary lambda calculus term.
03:25:13 <Slereah> Try to convert the successor operator
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03:26:27 <oerjan> jberryman: lessee 2 = \f x -> f (f x) = \f -> S(K f) f = S(S(KS)K)I modulo errors
03:26:43 <pikhq> oerjan: Looks correct.
03:27:24 <oerjan> jberryman: madore's unlambda page contains a pretty good explanation of abstraction elimination iirc
03:27:49 <Slereah> I included an eliminator of abstraction in lazy bird
03:28:01 <oerjan> there is no such thing as a fungot
03:28:01 <fungot> oerjan: what do you mean by write a srfi for
03:28:36 <oerjan> CakeProphet: unlikely. try again now.
03:28:43 <fungot> CakeProphet: most people would blame lag... :) apparently i was wrong a while ago
03:29:18 <jberryman> oerjan: thanks. I'll check that out.
03:29:34 <oerjan> it's not blacklist, it's flooding protection essentially, and it only keeps track of one person at a time.
03:31:03 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
03:31:43 <oerjan> it does blacklist the other bots though
03:32:30 <oerjan> oh and the single-person block only affects the babbling, not actual commands afair
03:33:14 * oerjan cackles evilly on fizzie's behalf *MWAHAHAHA*
03:34:13 <fungot> CakeProphet: that's not quite fair; haven't tried it
03:39:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
03:39:41 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
03:40:08 <jberryman> I just checked fungot's source for bugs. it looks good.
03:40:09 <fungot> jberryman: as i fnord but, as fast as you can," i said, hoping to keep him from beginning.
03:40:42 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
03:40:51 <fungot> CakeProphet: sights lying black under the unmeasured depth of age-old peat. that these hellish vestiges of old fnord magic and fertility cults were even now wholly dead he could not walk without the aid of the law. there had been the affable reporters, of whom several had still remained to collect final echoes of the third blast had died fnord away randolph carter saw that the passage was painted scenes of the utmost fnord, app
03:42:10 <Slereah> why are you sending empty text
03:42:40 <oerjan> CakeProphet: fizzie uses another program to generate the styles from text files, it replaces any word that only occurs once by fnord
03:44:03 <oerjan> at least by default. there are apparently some parameters that can be varied, such as how many consecutive words to take into account.
03:44:16 <fungot> CakeProphet: matthew phipps shiel, author of some dozen tales long and short, whose literary posterity is destined to become so numerous, and in
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03:47:31 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
03:47:46 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
03:48:02 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<++++[>--------<-]+>-[-------[--[<+++[>----<-]+>[<
03:48:33 <CakeProphet> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[<++++[>--------<-]+>-[-------[--[<+++[>----<-]+>[<
03:49:27 <oerjan> the ^str's are for allowing inputting long programs by composing, i think
03:49:51 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
03:50:26 <oerjan> well that was the theory
03:50:44 <oerjan> bf and ul are builtins
03:50:54 <oerjan> maybe it only works with ^def
03:51:06 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord
03:51:43 <fungot> SSwweeeett,, nniiccee rreevveerrbb eeffffeecctt ffuunnggoott
03:51:49 <oerjan> oh it checks syntax already at ^def
03:53:14 <fungot> (^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool)S
03:53:26 <fungot> HHHHeeeelllllllloooo????
03:57:37 <CakeProphet> ah, but I am wasting my time. I have absolutely no clue how to read number literals and convert them to bytes in bf.
03:57:55 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
03:57:58 <CakeProphet> but it would be my first bf program attempt
03:58:01 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ...
03:58:13 <oerjan> i guess that's the wrong direction
03:58:41 <oerjan> those number in ^show are run-length encoding
04:00:34 <oerjan> just for compressing a bit
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04:03:17 <oerjan> apparently not allowed directly :(
04:04:11 <CakeProphet> so I guess you'd keep grabbing input until a space is hit. then you'd convert each digit into a byte value, then exponentiate by an increment 10^x
04:05:13 <oerjan> i'd imagine multiplying by 10 and adding would be easier than keeping track of exponents.
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04:34:22 <Sgeo_> Gregor-P, didn't you get an eReader once?
04:34:32 <Sgeo_> Or am I thinking of some other Android device that you got?
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04:41:05 <Sgeo_> I really, really, really, want to full-text search this book right now.
04:49:48 <Sgeo_> Gregor-P, what eReader?
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05:02:52 <Sgeo_> Would you recommend it?
05:05:39 <Sgeo_> Seems rather expensive
05:17:36 <Gregor-P> And has a relatively big screen for the price.
05:19:11 <Sgeo_> I don't know if I want a big screen
05:19:21 <Sgeo_> I want something as comfortable to hold as the Nook, I think
05:19:31 <Sgeo_> But preferably less of a PITA to use
05:20:23 <Gregor-P> The IREX is about the same size as the nook.
05:20:46 <Gregor-P> Its tablet screen is surprisingly nice fo general navigation.
05:22:45 <Sgeo_> My dad says he might be able to get me a Kindle for free :/
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05:25:02 <CakeProphet> but... I don't feel like it. Someone else can try if they like
05:28:18 <Sgeo_> I'd like to be able to borrow ebooks from the library, now that I know that that's something that actually exists.
05:29:01 <Gregor-P> Universal Markup for Geophysics of Dynamically Moving Bodies of Oceania
05:29:21 <Gregor-P> Sgeo_: Kindle can't do that, everything else can.
05:29:59 <Sgeo_> The fact that the Kindle would be free is the only reason I'm even thinking about it at this point
05:30:15 <myndzi\> i'm kinda hoping pixel qi works out to be awesome
05:30:19 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
05:30:34 <myndzi> i am almost tempted to spring for the Adam when it comes out
05:31:26 <CakeProphet> sounds like a good domain-specific language.
05:32:52 <CakeProphet> I'm done. Off to get fucked up. cheers everyone.
05:33:23 <fungot> CakeProphet: he had wished to find the sun coming out. they were
05:33:34 <Sgeo_> "Avoid the clunky navigation of other eReaders with this quick and easy solution." *cough* Nook *cough*
05:36:12 <myndzi> i wrote an acro script once
05:36:18 <myndzi> it was a lot of work for a simple concept
05:36:36 <myndzi> this method is somewhat easier hehe
05:37:09 <myndzi> though, it'd be nice if it followed english letter probabilities for the start of words or something
05:39:29 <CakeProphet> !haskell putStr $ ((++"bottles of beer on the wall.\n").show) =<< [99..1]
05:40:07 * Sgeo_ thinks he wants a Sony Reader Touch Edition
05:40:20 <oerjan> [99..1] is an empty list
05:41:34 <EgoBot> [99,98,97,96,95,94,93,92,91,90,89,88,87,86,85,84,83,82,81,80,79,78,77,76,75,74,73,72,71,70,69,68,67,66,65,64,63,62,61,60,59,58,57,56,55,54,53,52,51,50,49,48,47,46,45,44,43,42,41,40,39,38,37,36,35,34,33,32,31,30,29,28,27,26,25,24,23,22,21,20,19,18,17,16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1]
05:41:38 <myndzi> actually i don't even belong in this channel haha
05:41:52 <Gregor-P> Sgeo_: I've heard better things about the Sony than the Nook
05:42:21 <CakeProphet> !haskell putStr $ ((++"bottles of beer on the wall.\n").show) =<< [99,98..1]
05:42:22 <EgoBot> 99bottles of beer on the wall.
05:42:37 <oerjan> myndzi: you cannot do 100-[1..99] out of the box. you could define a class instance to make it work, though.
05:42:39 <Sgeo_> Although I think I could survive
05:43:10 <Sgeo_> The worst thing, IMO, was the placement of the page turn buttons. WHY would you have upper button on both sides be back, and lower buttons be forwards?
05:43:32 <Sgeo_> But that's just what I'd need to adjust to. The color screen is.. annoying, to say the least
05:43:42 <Sgeo_> It's unusably small
05:44:55 <Gregor-P> The page turning on the IREX is SWEET
05:47:19 <myndzi> you know what else is sweet?
05:47:28 <myndzi> switching between color lcd and e-ink
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05:59:07 <pikhq> My head hurts now.
05:59:53 <pikhq> So: in addition to Taiwan and China's mutual claims, the US has a valid claim over Taiwan.
06:00:01 <pikhq> After WWII, we occupied Taiwan.
06:00:10 <pikhq> We then delegated authority to the Republic of China government.
06:00:18 <pikhq> And we continue to do so.
06:00:36 <Ilari> Whew... That Skyroads thing took almost 35 hours to render... Now doing the same with Xmas version...
06:02:21 <Ilari> Should be faster as the game is shorter (by over 3.5 minutes) and most levels are shorter.
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06:08:40 <Sgeo_> If I get a touch edition, can I use it to make handwritten notes unrelated to books?
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06:11:45 <Rafajafar> Who decided that R4 was time and R0 was a point?
06:12:16 <Rafajafar> wouldn't it make more sense if R0 was time because time can exist independent of space?
06:13:14 <Rafajafar> any cool langs come out lately kiddos?
06:16:26 <Sgeo_> Scribble random math from time to time
06:16:46 <Sgeo_> Gregor-P, IREX is _expensive_
06:17:17 <Sgeo_> I think this device will get me back into reading, and back into math
06:18:20 <pikhq> I've got something better for that.
06:18:22 <pikhq> Is called a "book".
06:18:34 <Gregor-P> Rafajafar: Time is just another dimension, doesn't make much diff where it goes, it's no more independent from space than one dimension of space is from another.
06:20:13 <Rafajafar> well that's not exactly right? To say you can have a cube w/o the concept of a plane is ludicrous
06:20:36 <Rafajafar> isnt it equally ludicrous to have the concept of a point w/o a time in which it exists?
06:21:02 <Rafajafar> more of a philosophical question, probably. Just talking crank for a bit.
06:21:16 <Sgeo_> pikhq, you can't draw on books without ruining them
06:21:30 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Yes, well. What are you doing not reading them?
06:21:44 <Sgeo_> As far as getting into math is concerned, what I need is easy paper
06:23:45 <Rafajafar> Just out of curiosity, what are yalls backgrounds
06:24:02 <Rafajafar> I'm a simple bachelor of computer science, full time technology manager
06:24:05 <Gregor-P> Rafajafar: Matter of perspective. Can you have a TIME CUBE (errr, a cube that exists for some amount of time) without time?
06:24:44 <Rafajafar> according to him you're educated stupid
06:24:51 * pikhq is a currently not-enrolled-in-school 20 year old with a background that consists of being completely computer-obsessed.
06:26:20 <Rafajafar> strange joke, but glad you assumed I was on level to know it
06:27:01 <Rafajafar> Gregor-P: No I mean, it's ok to ask questions like this right?
06:27:21 <Rafajafar> I'm not suggesting it's wrong, I just do not know why it is... I'm seeking deep knowledge
06:27:36 <Gregor-P> Kinda the point of this channel.
06:27:53 <Rafajafar> well, ok, why isn't time the 0'th dimension?
06:28:09 <myndzi> because when you are numbering things you start with 1!
06:28:11 <Rafajafar> sounds reasonable to me that for existence to exist it needs time?
06:28:30 <myndzi> maybe i should have said counting things
06:28:44 <Gregor-P> Can't write huge amounts of text on this phone X-P
06:28:47 <myndzi> time is not necessary for existence of course
06:28:52 <Sgeo_> If you fail to consider time as a dimension, you have 3 dimensions. Suddenly realize time is a dimension, and it's a fourth
06:29:25 <Rafajafar> myndzi: that implies that space is necessary
06:29:29 <Ilari> And where it gets bit nasty is interrelation of spooky action at distance and relative time... :-/
06:29:52 <myndzi> existence is what is, that's all :P
06:30:02 <cheater99> is timecube.com the previous version of stackoverflow.com
06:30:05 <myndzi> if time wasn't, existince wouldn't include it
06:30:22 <Rafajafar> if space wasnt, existence wouldn't include it
06:30:41 <myndzi> then that would be existence! :)
06:30:56 <myndzi> that would be ecnetsixe
06:31:04 <Rafajafar> what if certain things need to be defined with the perspective of time as a basis, and other things need to be defined as space as a basis?
06:31:23 <myndzi> what if certain things need to be defined with your mom as a basis?
06:31:37 <Rafajafar> my mother is the basis for all things, before her I knew nothing
06:31:45 <myndzi> so what you're saying is
06:31:49 <myndzi> your mother is the first woman you knew?
06:32:11 <Rafajafar> whether she enjoyed it isnt up to me to speculate
06:32:32 <myndzi> to your hoo hoo i say ho ho!
06:33:26 <cheater99> do python expressions/functions have the strong normalizing property?
06:33:50 <Ilari> Since spooky action at distance is said to propagate at infinite speed, and with relative time, infinite speed tends to cause trouble.
06:34:05 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should get a tablet instead of an eReader
06:34:11 <Sgeo_> Then again, maybe not
06:34:26 <myndzi> what about at ludicrous speed?
06:36:11 <Rafajafar> Ilari: actually, if action at a distance was measured as a function of space over time, then you've already crossed into the 4th... it wouldn't matter if time was the origin or the 4th
06:38:03 <Ilari> In fact, any cause and effect that would need exceeding speed of light => trouble with SR.
06:38:11 <Rafajafar> what if time was the 0th d, space with the 1st d, and change was the 5th d?
06:38:50 <Rafajafar> b/c a line would be the 2nd, and a plane would be the 3rd, and full space will be R3
06:39:46 <Rafajafar> because really when we say R4, we're talking about change, not time
06:40:24 <Rafajafar> anyway, I'm a dork, I ask weird questions and posit strange hypothese
06:40:40 <Rafajafar> and I say that b/c I'm afraid of being percieved as a crank...
06:42:56 <Rafajafar> hah, wow, I got banned from #math for asking that question
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06:46:41 <pikhq> Rafajafar: You're talking to guys who posit infinite lists of noncomputable reals here. :P
06:50:38 <Rafajafar> pikhq: oh that's absolutely possible
06:54:02 <Rafajafar> pikhq: why... wouldn't there be an infinite list of noncomputable reals
06:54:38 <Rafajafar> all you need is one that exists before 1 and 0, then you add one to that and it's also noncomputable... making it an infinite list
06:55:26 <pikhq> Rafajafar: Yeah, the noncomputable reals certainly exist.
06:55:29 <Rafajafar> furthermore, there's an infinite list of noncomputable reals between 0 and 1... because there are an infinite number of numbers between 0 and 1, and a finite number of computable functions
06:55:37 <pikhq> They're just very irritating to compute. :P
06:56:00 <Rafajafar> well, I guess there isnt a finite number of computable functions, actually... but it's less infinite
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06:57:00 <pikhq> That is the correct term, yes.
06:57:15 <pikhq> The computable reals are countable, after all.
06:59:19 <Rafajafar> pikhq: I'm manic tonight :-P Tell me what else I should think about
07:00:04 <Rafajafar> I normally spend time on primes or music theory
07:00:29 <Sgeo_> Get the Kindle, and buy a good eReader
07:00:42 <Sgeo_> In case there are titles available for Kindle but not other eReaders
07:01:48 <Rafajafar> I wish I could read for depth... I can only scan... I scan for information and connect things in my head a few minutes later. Reading for pleasure is out of the question.
07:02:28 <Sgeo_> Do you really need to read for depth to read for pleasure?
07:02:52 <Rafajafar> I remember people as "the guy who did this"
07:03:06 <Rafajafar> makes me a decent programmer... and a great designer (software engineer)... but a terrible reader
07:03:49 <Rafajafar> only book series I ever could keep up with was the Hitchiker's guide
07:04:27 <Rafajafar> mostly because the names were so distinct I had no issue keeping up with them, but also because the characters were so distinct, I could track who they were by the sentence structure rather than the "said, so and so"
07:05:15 <Rafajafar> Sgeo_ who are you reading these days?
07:05:28 <Sgeo_> Mostly Pratchett though
07:07:37 <Rafajafar> you know I was told Discworld was very good
07:08:10 <Rafajafar> blah holy shit, talking about trivial shit ... need to log... back when I'm not fucking nuts.
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07:36:19 <Sgeo_> Just finished Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency for the first time
07:41:29 <Sgeo_> Well, there's at least one book for which Amazon's price is cheaper
07:42:18 <Sgeo_> http://ebookstore.sony.com/ebook/douglas-r-hofstadter/i-am-a-strange-loop/_/R-400000000000000070218 vs http://www.amazon.com/I-Am-Strange-Loop-ebook/dp/B0014XUCQY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2&s=digital-text&qid=1278657602&sr=1-1
07:56:00 <coppro> Sgeo_: Good, now read it again
07:56:32 <Sgeo_> How about, maybe tomorrow
07:56:54 <Sgeo_> I also bought Nation by Terry Pratchett
07:57:05 <Sgeo_> A bit apprehensive since it's not Discworld, but still
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08:05:51 <Sgeo_> Hm, I think I tend to dislike serious
08:06:26 <Sgeo_> Although it's weird. The webcomics I read are generally considered to be humorous, but I sometimes read them more for the plot
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08:23:42 <Sgeo_> Is it possible to buy an eBook from Amazon and read it on a non-Kindle device?
08:25:46 <Sgeo_> What's with the claims that LCDs hurt eyes?
08:25:57 <Sgeo_> I can stare at my computer screen for hours, and not feel discomfort
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08:34:41 <Sgeo_> Why am I not considering waiting for an Android tablet?
08:43:57 <Sgeo_> My choice is pretty much between the Sony eReader Touch, and the Kobo, I think
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10:21:20 <fungot> CakeProphet: mysteries. to the left into an equally silent and still narrower alley with no light at all: and in a brief space i found myself after a time i insisted upon talking nervously and elaborately explaining my condition. i told you longe ago, do not watch him again.
10:32:09 <fizzie> The book-based styles are a bit boredom.
10:36:46 <fizzie> Certainly it's probably what I will be remembered for, after the inevitable robot insurgence.
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10:42:17 <Ilari> Yay... Found a way to supress those darn infinite objects (scale the scene down by factor of 1000). Results: ~23k frames in ~25 minutes.
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11:11:38 <fizzie> I've been dabbling more with the Descent rendering thing; just got player location exported from a recorded demo into Blender's animation curves; now I'd need the rotations too.
11:15:26 <Ilari> Now I'm doing Skyroads in fullHD. Sadly no graphics improvements yet.
11:16:50 <Ilari> (other than 4x the resolution).
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12:40:27 <augur> ╲╲╲╲╲╭━━━━╮╱╱╱╱╱ ╲╲╲╲╲┃┊◒◒┊┃╱╱╱╱╱ ╭━━━━╯┊╰╯┊╰━━━━╮ ┃╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮┃ ┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃┃ ╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯
12:41:14 <augur> according to stephen fry, this is paul the octopus
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12:47:11 <ais523> really bizarre spam: some server I've never heard of went and tagged it as spam, gave a large rundown of the reasons, then attached the original message
12:51:27 <AnMaster> ais523, ... is that the subject line?
12:51:59 <ais523> subject line is [SPAM?] SPAM: 8/7/2010......REMINDER......REPLY ASAP......
12:52:07 <AnMaster> "some server I've never heard of went and tagged it as spam, gave a large rundown of the reasons, then attached the original message" would be a really bizarre subject line of a spam though
12:52:26 <ais523> so would most of the lines said in this channel
12:52:29 <ais523> doesn't make it any more plausible
12:53:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I once got a spam with a subject line like (don't remember exactly, was quite a long time ago): [<project I never heard of, but valid open source project when googling>-commit rev 1234] <something about enlarging body parts>
12:54:07 <AnMaster> the first few lines were like a svn commit message too
12:54:23 <AnMaster> so my spamfilter didn't catch it
12:54:24 <ais523> it probably /was/ a commit message, someone sent spam to a commit address and it got accepted as a revision somehow
12:55:45 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc the project it "faked" was some sf.net one. I don't think they set it up that badly. Plus it didn't come sf.net when you checked headers
12:55:55 <AnMaster> or wasn't faking that as sender either iirc
12:56:33 <AnMaster> ais523, so that explanation, while neat, doesn't quite seem to hold up
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13:45:06 <AnMaster> some of the text books for the autumn that I ordered arrived today. There is one book about data structures and algorithms that seems to avoid to be biased to any specific language in it's examples.
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13:45:35 <AnMaster> when paging through it I spotted examples in lisp, java, C, C++, Modula-2, pseudo code and standard ML
13:52:26 <AnMaster> pseudo code seems to be most common, but the chapter on linked lists seems to use java mostly, lisp is mostly in the chapter on trees heh
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15:05:34 <oerjan> <cheater99> do python expressions/functions have the strong normalizing property? <-- given that functions can recursive infinitely, i would think they aren't even weakly normalizing
15:06:04 <oerjan> actually halting is a prerequisite for either, at least in lambda calculus
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15:33:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, no they will run out of stack space in python afaik?
15:34:16 <oerjan> that sounds like a very non-abstract thing to do
15:34:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, I mean, python doesn't do TCO afaik, thus in practise it can't recurse infinitely
15:35:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, that limitation would probably be hit before both "hardware breaking" and "heat death of universe" :P
15:36:17 * oerjan whatevers AnMaster with the saucepan ===\__/
15:38:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, it can however iterate forever in any "imperative" loop construct
15:39:00 <AnMaster> ignoring hardware faults and heat death of universe that is
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15:50:01 <Sgeo_> I'm not allowed to use adjectives as a verb instead of grammaticizing properly?
15:50:36 <Sgeo_> Or adverbs for that matter?
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15:51:58 <AnMaster> * Sgeo_ tireds <-- tires or tired?
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15:52:17 <AnMaster> I'm not sure what tireds would even mean
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15:53:44 <Sgeo_> to tired, to be tired. same thing
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17:22:47 <cpressey> Anyone remember 'Stunts'? That was a cool game.
17:29:18 <cpressey> Of course, I'm a sucker for any game with a construction set.
17:29:53 * cpressey would commit unspeakable acts for a construction set in Katamari Damacy.
17:32:46 * Ilari would like to obtain information about tile compression in ROADS.LZS (to make level editor).
17:35:11 <fizzie> There's some sort of Stunts remake, I don't know how good it is.
17:35:32 <ais523> cpressey: if the acts are unspeakable, how does anyone tell you what they are?
17:35:59 <fizzie> I do remember the original, too: if you jumped and hit a building just right, sometimes the car would "bounce" up until it hit the top of the sky, then slowly "glide" into a corner of the level, then finally drop down.
17:36:07 <cpressey> ais523: They... play Charades?
17:36:24 <cpressey> Maybe let's not go down this road.
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17:37:47 <fizzie> Ilari: I've managed to rip the level polygons, textures (texture coords are a bit broken right now) and camera position + partially-working rotation out of Descent 1 datafiles + recorded demo now.
17:38:09 <fizzie> Ilari: Admittedly my task is significantly easier since Parallax released the Descent 1 source code, so I can peek at it.
17:38:16 <fizzie> (It's pretty horrible code, though.)
17:38:22 <Ilari> fizzie: Is demo playback deterministic? You know how to edit it?
17:39:08 <fizzie> It records "this is what you need to render at these positions and in this state" sort of demos, not "this is what the user gave as input" demos, so it's easier to extractify.
17:39:40 <Ilari> Ah... Not that useful...
17:40:12 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/test.mp4 has a xvidcap-recorded flythrough; the textures are pretty broken at times, and it's just the primary textures (so all decorations and doors and such) are missing, and of course all objects too other than the mine, but at least it's something.
17:40:33 <fizzie> (18 megabytes of video, vlc shows it just fine but mplayer breaks at the beginning.)
17:41:06 <fizzie> It's from Blender's 3d view, not rendered or anything. I don't have any lighting in place yet.
17:41:36 <fizzie> And I'm going to have to redo the materials anyway, 64x64 textures aren't very classy.
17:42:03 <Deewiant> [h264 @ 0xdb0120]concealing 3039 DC, 3039 AC, 3039 MV errors
17:42:22 <Ilari> Too bad one probably one can't currently TAS Descent. :-/
17:42:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: VLC also breaks at the beginning.
17:42:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: My VLC (well, the one at work) didn't.
17:42:56 <fizzie> It was some earlier version.
17:43:03 <fizzie> mplayer complains about "missing reference picture".
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17:43:40 <Deewiant> And then it repeatedly says "AVC: nal size 0", "no frame!", "Error while decoding frame!"
17:43:47 <fizzie> The "ffmpeg" binary at work wasn't supporting libx264, so no H.264 encoding, so I had to use the VLC that was there to convert it from a hundred-megabyte .avi that xvidcap put out.
17:43:53 <Deewiant> VLC says "AVC: nal size 0" and "no frame!" as well.
17:44:58 <fizzie> Hrm, VLC 1.0.6 started just fine, but then went to "AVC: nal size 0" problems.
17:45:05 <fizzie> Maybe I should rerecord it at home anyway.
17:45:13 <Deewiant> Yes, exactly. They both manage a few seconds.
17:45:58 <fizzie> For the reference, VLC 1.0.2 at work played it just fine.
17:46:28 <fizzie> Er, well... assuming I tried for more than few seconds. I may have looked at it through with mplayer (which managed after the messed-up beginning) and then just the beginning seconds with VLC.
17:47:02 <fizzie> I'll just go and rerecord it.
17:47:21 <Deewiant> Neither mplayer nor vlc get past the messed-up beginning in any way AFAICT
17:47:28 <fizzie> My mplayer at work did.
17:47:44 <fizzie> Possibly different codec versions and so on.
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17:47:58 <Deewiant> If I fast forward to some later time, mplayer shows a black screen and VLC the frame it was on before fast forwarding
17:50:40 <fizzie> I'll see if I manage to rerecord. It's just that with xvidcap's default settings, I get just 5.07 fps at home; I got the target 10 fps reasonably well at work, but that's a beefier machine.
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17:53:45 <Ilari> Heh... Write music generator to do the background music of this run (too bad I don't have the "artistic eye" for that)... :->
17:58:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, I overwrote http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/test.mp4 with a smaller (~3 megabytes) version that does play correctly with mplayer here.
17:59:47 <fizzie> It's not especially smooth, but it'll be ugly anyhow.
18:00:38 <Deewiant> You're cheating and flying through walls
18:00:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's not a wall, it's a door. :p
18:01:02 <fizzie> Doors are animated "secondary textures" which I don't yet handle.
18:01:59 <fizzie> I'm probably going to turn doors into real objects with animation controls, and then just make the demo "door opening" events twiddle those around. So much to do, for such a completely frivolous reason, though.
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18:03:04 <Ilari> The HD render is up to ~43.1k frames of about 48.0k (has taken 7.5h).
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18:03:52 <AnMaster> ais523, you said you used the nwn level editor? I think I hit a wall in how to extract it from the windows installer on the dvd (presumably once that is done I could use use wine)
18:04:19 <AnMaster> ais523, so um, how do you go about that. Do you need to use a vm or such and copy files over?
18:04:23 <fizzie> Can't you run the Windows installer under Wine?
18:05:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe, I found installers to be kind of messy there, plus it will take a bit of cleaning up I suppose, since I don't want two copies of the whole data of nwn
18:05:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: In case you're disturbingly curious, this is what ends up in a recorded demo: http://sprunge.us/cYLc (just a short one-line overview of each event).
18:05:38 <fizzie> A throwaway ~/.wine directory with (new) default configs might make the cleanup easier.
18:05:59 <fizzie> Assuming the level editor manages to work without the registry entries generated by the installer.
18:06:19 <AnMaster> well one could copy those over, since iirc wine uses a flatfile for the registry
18:07:05 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to. You could even diff the "clean" .reg files with after-installation ones to find all changes.
18:07:43 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's around 20K (compressed) for a 27-second demo. Not bad, I suppose.
18:08:07 <AnMaster> still I hoped there was a simpler way.
18:09:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: If you mean the sprunge.us paste, it leaves a whole lot of details unprinted. The actual (27-second) demo file is 1557507 bytes.
18:10:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: I guess it still compresses at around the same ratio, so it's still not bad.
18:10:19 <fizzie> AnMaster: A recording of a Descent 1 game session.
18:10:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, it "7z a -mx=9"s into 329284 bytes.
18:11:28 <Deewiant> fizzie: Okay, that's slightly bad.
18:12:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: "3D first-person shooter", says Wikipedia.
18:12:42 <fizzie> It's relatively old (released in 1995) for being so actually-really-3D-and-not-just-faking-it.
18:12:53 <fizzie> Also it supported all kinds of freaky serial-port-connected virtual helmets.
18:13:01 <fizzie> All of which failed to be very commercially successful.
18:14:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: What the demo *should* look like is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYeu7-QtX04
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18:16:54 <Deewiant> The speedrun is even more disorienting than the game itself
18:17:59 <fizzie> I always got lost in the game; it's not exactly easy to navigate. There's the "automatically turn level to 'floor'" feature, but it was still a bit confusing sometimes.
18:18:32 <fizzie> Did some multiplayering over modem back then.
18:19:07 * pikhq laughs maniacally.
18:19:31 <pikhq> "In re Bilski" claimed the patent in question was unpatentable because it could be reduced to *mathematical formulae*.
18:19:44 <Deewiant> Yes, I always got lost as well. The automap didn't help.
18:20:00 <pikhq> Bitching. There goes all patents that can be represented in a TC language.
18:20:41 <ais523> AnMaster: I did it by running the Windows installer under WIne
18:20:50 <ais523> pikhq: ooh, that's a good catch
18:20:56 <ais523> where in the opinion does it say that?
18:21:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: Was there a map too? I don't remember it at all, but I guess there was.
18:22:11 * Sgeo__ is considering taking Winforms programming
18:22:14 <fizzie> Was it a top-down view or what? Wireframe thing over the whole level?
18:22:16 <Sgeo__> Will this poison my brain?
18:22:37 <coppro> Sgeo__: if you're going that route, do WPF.
18:22:57 <Sgeo__> coppro, the school offers a Winforms course, not a WPF course
18:23:13 <Deewiant> fizzie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_%28video_game%29#Navigation describes it a bit.
18:23:15 <coppro> (tip: I was not suggesting you actually take a WPF course)
18:23:16 <Sgeo__> Unless WPF is a part of Winforms?
18:23:27 <coppro> take the course if you must
18:23:41 <coppro> if not, go find a better use of your time than learning how to use a dumb GUI library
18:23:52 <coppro> realize that this is like taking a course in wxWidgets or GTK
18:23:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: "it isn't uncommon to suffer from nausea and confusion at first" -- especially if you have on a 20 Hz flickery virtual helmet that's tracking head-movement, I suppose.
18:24:17 <Sgeo__> coppro, I'm registering very late. Many of the courses are closed out.
18:24:18 <AnMaster> ais523, can you share data dir between linux and windows install?
18:24:22 <AnMaster> it seems such a waste otherwise
18:24:26 <ais523> yes, even with symlinks
18:24:34 <ais523> that's how I got the Linux data dir in the first place
18:24:38 <AnMaster> ais523, symlinks to wine? or the other way around?
18:24:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: I seem to recall my "Wingman Extreme" stick was reasonably good for Descent, because the 4-way hat could be configured to strafe.
18:24:54 <Sgeo__> Also, I think it would be nice to actually force myself to learn some GUI library
18:25:00 <AnMaster> I guess wine doesn't turn symlinks into *.lnk
18:25:05 <Sgeo__> I've.. never done GUI stuff before. VB doesn't count
18:25:06 <Deewiant> I seem to recall I played it using only a keyboard.
18:25:13 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean Linux symlinks, not Windows ones
18:25:29 <Sgeo__> Well, there's that one time with PythonCard
18:25:32 <AnMaster> ais523, the horror on windows are not symlinks :P
18:25:43 <AnMaster> they are like .desktop files rather iirc
18:25:55 <ais523> AnMaster: Windows /does/ have genuine hardlinks, though
18:25:58 <ais523> but /only/ to directories
18:26:10 <ais523> (as opposed to Linux hardlinks which can't be to directories, on most FSes)
18:26:53 <AnMaster> ais523, hm aren't . and .. like hardlinks?
18:27:03 <AnMaster> on the other hand they don't behave like ones when you rm them
18:27:19 <ais523> AnMaster: they do work a bit like hardlinks, yes
18:27:34 <ais523> and they increase the link count of the directory they point at
18:27:34 <pikhq> ais523: http://www.groklaw.net/pdf2/BilskiScotus08-964.pdf , page 15. Opinion of the Court. "The concept of hedging, described in claim 1 and reduced to a mathematical formula in claim 4, is an unpatentable abstract idea, just like the algorithms at issue in Benson and Fook."
18:27:42 <ais523> ugh, not precise enough
18:27:57 <AnMaster> ais523, rm -f . doesn't do what you would expect then (create a directory without the . hardlink)
18:27:58 <ais523> that doesn't say "mathematical formulas are unpatentable", just vaguely implies it
18:28:08 <ais523> AnMaster: well, obviously, I doubt the FS allows it
18:28:10 <AnMaster> and plain unlink() doesn't work on directories iirc
18:28:37 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't /proc do some strange "hardlinks to other fs" thing?
18:28:59 <ais523> /proc, in many ways, is not a normal filesystem
18:29:59 <AnMaster> coppro, where did the k come from?
18:30:11 <Sgeo__> The class might be a way to force me to actually do GUI stuff
18:30:13 <pikhq> Previously, on page 14; "The Court concluded that the process at issue there was 'unpatentable under SS101, not because it contain[ed] a mathematical algorithm as one component, but because once that algorithm [wa]s assumed to be within the prior art, the application, as a whole, contain[ed] no patentable invention.'"
18:30:16 <coppro> Sgeo__: I wouldn't recommend it, but if it's the best option available, it probably won't kill you
18:30:37 <coppro> AnMaster: From a spelling you see in some fantasy works that want to feel that magick is special there
18:30:42 <Sgeo__> I think the other option is only taking one computer course this semester
18:30:53 <Sgeo__> Which would drive me absolutely bonkers
18:30:56 <coppro> tip: it's not, but it looks funny to me
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18:31:05 <pikhq> Also: "[...] while an abstract idea, law of nature, or mathematical formula could not be patented [...]"
18:31:27 <AnMaster> why is there winemine and a wine notepad
18:31:43 <coppro> pikhq: Hopefully that will hurt software patents
18:31:46 <impomatic> Patents? Did you see the alleged Shazam patent infringement?
18:31:53 <pikhq> coppro: Hopefully.
18:31:59 <ais523> just saw an interesting point on Slashdot: the sort of accounting used in Hollywood generally leads to negative profits, thus negative profits per sale
18:32:16 <ais523> therefore, movie piracy actually makes the film industry money, if you follow their own reasoning
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18:32:51 <ais523> coppro: this is because their reasoning is so screwed up, not any actual cause
18:33:28 <AnMaster> ais523, where exactly is the toolkit placed? I don't see any obvious .exe
18:33:29 <Ilari> ~45 560 HD frames in 8 hours...
18:33:50 <coppro> ais523: What soft of accounting is that?
18:33:51 <AnMaster> oh wait, "nwtoolset.exe", how could I miss that
18:33:52 <ais523> or something like that
18:34:05 <Sgeo__> Ugh, I need a course "Management Information Systems"
18:34:09 <ais523> AnMaster: it's still very buggy in Wine, you'll want to save often
18:34:18 <ais523> but at least it isn't unusable like it was in Wine as of a couple of years ago
18:34:45 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, it is truly confusing too
18:34:47 <Sgeo__> I don't think it would count as enough of a computer course to save my sanity
18:35:23 <AnMaster> ais523, where are the docs for it...
18:35:44 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not aware of any useful ones, but it didn't take me long to learn
18:36:11 <ais523> basically: module is the largest unit of anything, module contains areas (which you create using a wizard), with an area open you can use the pane on the right to add things to it
18:36:31 <AnMaster> oh wait you are restricted to one tileset per room? I had plans for a nice combination (ruins in wood)
18:36:32 <ais523> and right-click's used to customize things by adding scripts, etc
18:36:49 <ais523> yes, one tileset per area, although there are some ruin-like tiles in the forest tileset
18:37:05 <ais523> the only commercial game for Linux I ever purchased
18:37:21 <ais523> because it's a good game, and commercial games actually being released for Linux are really rare
18:38:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I didn't purchase darwinia
18:38:29 <ais523> and "really rare" != "1"
18:38:37 <AnMaster> why did I read "purchased" as "released"?
18:38:48 <ais523> because I said "released" the line after, possibly
18:39:05 <AnMaster> ais523, still which is the tileset I speak of
18:39:17 <ais523> you may be thinking of Crypt
18:39:33 <ais523> it's also worth mentioning that the bridge tiles in Crypt and Forest look identical
18:39:42 <AnMaster> ais523, not the spooky ones. I decided to start out with "nice dungeon", like that mage in blackwater
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18:40:25 <AnMaster> Area 001, nice suggestion. Should call it Area 53
18:40:52 <AnMaster> wtf, ais523 the size selection, what is the units
18:41:16 <ais523> 2x2 is more or less the smallest practical
18:41:22 <coppro> from the CS145 (advanced first-year CS) page at UW: "Your C programs will be created using a text editor. We recommend using Pico, Nano, Vim, or Emacs."
18:41:25 <ais523> you can just stick a pre-made 2x2 unit down and have yourself a nice room
18:41:29 <AnMaster> ais523, eh, so how many tiles is an areatile
18:41:38 <ais523> AnMaster: what "tiles" are you speaking of?
18:41:49 <AnMaster> ais523, how does it work for stuff like ground and placing houses
18:42:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I somehow assumed it was using tiles somewhere below and hiding it well. that tends to be common
18:42:26 <ais523> it does use tiles, they're rather large though
18:42:36 <ais523> e.g. some of the tiles in City Exterior have two doors on
18:43:06 <AnMaster> ais523, and those are the area tiles?
18:43:13 <AnMaster> seems very limited in shapes then
18:43:18 <AnMaster> ais523, so port llast could be 16x16?
18:43:21 <ais523> there's quite a wide selection
18:43:36 <ais523> port llast is maximum size IIRC, I can't remember offhand if that's 16x16 or 32x32
18:44:14 <ais523> a typical house on the overworld is 1x2 or 2x2, some are 1x1
18:44:18 <AnMaster> ais523, hm how do I load the original game to check out maps there. When starting it it offered me to load various add-ons that came with it. But not the original from what I saw
18:45:01 <ais523> AnMaster: you see the directory called "nwm"? for each file nwm file in it, e.g. module1.nwm, copy it to the directory called modules with the extension .mod
18:45:14 <ais523> it's file-extension and file-system based DRM, in a sense
18:45:23 <ais523> change the directory, change the extension, suddenly you cna open it
18:46:03 <AnMaster> ouch, does this app have focusing issues...
18:46:44 <ais523> other bugs: some pop-up menus, if opened using the right mouse button, open twice and only one of the copies ever closes
18:46:49 <ais523> until you exit the app altogether
18:47:19 <ais523> and hierarchical lists (those with the [+] signs next to them) go crazy if you hover the mouse over certain areas, getting more and more confused until they eventually segfault
18:47:31 <ais523> also, every now and then it forgets all the textures making it impossible to see what you're doing
18:48:20 <AnMaster> ais523, um, what certain areas for such lists?
18:48:41 <ais523> AnMaster: generally entries that shouldn't be there
18:48:49 <ais523> either completely blank entries that appear for no reason, or duplicated entries
18:48:59 <AnMaster> okay how do I replace all the wall with some floor hm
18:49:14 <ais523> generally, just overwrite it with some type of floor, or with corridor
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18:49:57 <AnMaster> ais523, what about test playing it?
18:50:01 <Sgeo__> Idea: I shall take a web dev course
18:50:15 <AnMaster> ais523, okay now it says I can't save because start position is invalid
18:50:26 <ais523> AnMaster: "set start position" is the top-right icon on the right page
18:50:37 <ais523> and to test-play, save and load in the Linux client
18:50:45 <ais523> I recommend save-and-quit to help reset stability issues
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18:53:14 <Ilari> Rendering took 8h20min.
18:54:32 <Ilari> Estmated size: 135MB, ETA 27 minutes.
18:54:35 <pikhq> Why do C coders suck almost universally?
18:54:51 <Ilari> If you want more sucky coders, look at C++... :-)
18:55:00 <AnMaster> ais523, what about adding a door? Doorway I can manage but door?
18:55:01 <ais523> C++ is inherently impossible to code well, though
18:55:03 <cpressey> pikhq: Are you saying I suck almost universally?
18:55:05 <ais523> AnMaster: doors are an objcet
18:55:22 <AnMaster> ais523, somewhere in the list Features/Groups/Terrain?
18:55:25 <ais523> the right-hand pane, at the top, has a list of all the sorts of things you can add
18:55:31 <ais523> atm, it's set to area tiles, that's the top-left icon
18:55:37 <ais523> the row below has, say, monsters, doors, items, etc
18:55:43 <cpressey> pikhq: Never mind, I'm quite confused.
18:56:10 <AnMaster> ais523, this UI was designed by someone who didn't plan to release it
18:56:18 <AnMaster> aka it works if you know how it works
18:56:27 <ais523> generally speaking you want to customize monsters, unless their only purpose is to attack the player and die horribly
18:56:30 <cpressey> pikhq: I think the age of the language might have something to do with it. C's old, as it goes.
18:56:37 <ais523> AnMaster: it only took me about 5 minutes to figure out, it's a pretty easy UI
18:56:56 <ais523> that said, I even managed to figure out the scripting language just from looking at a few pre-existing scripts
18:57:06 <AnMaster> ais523, what about NPC with simple convo. Hm I guess I'll try to figure out door first
18:57:13 <pikhq> cpressey: Most code in other languages also sucks pretty poorly. The difference between good and bad code in C is just very, very clear.
18:57:46 <ais523> AnMaster: for a one-off NPC, you can place them first, then right-click, edit properties, edit conversation
18:58:42 <AnMaster> ais523, ah right. Okay I can rotate but I can't pan
18:59:13 <ais523> AnMaster: the mouse gesture to pan is to hold down the middle button, then while holding it click the left button, then drag
18:59:18 <ais523> and yes, I actually discovered that by experiment
18:59:32 <ais523> alternatively, you can use the arrow buttons below the map
18:59:41 <AnMaster> ais523, that doesn't work well with how I use the middle mouse button
18:59:46 <AnMaster> right and middle would be easier
19:00:07 <ais523> AnMaster: for all I know it isn't the simplest such gesture, after all I discovered it by experiment
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19:06:47 <pikhq> cpressey: The worst part is, that was his name in Japanese.
19:06:54 <pikhq> cpressey: They had a guy named Bug, too.
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19:13:34 <Ilari> Updated ETA: 9min, updated size estimate: 126MB.
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19:15:07 <ais523> Ilari: what was the original file, btw?
19:15:39 <Ilari> ais523: The orginal footage?
19:16:05 <ais523> yes, or at least, the source of whatever you were rendering and encoding
19:17:33 <Ilari> ais523: Sources: skyroads map data, motion dump + script.
19:17:51 <Ilari> The script gave 2.8GB in 48015 PNGs.
19:18:00 <ais523> I was mostly interested in what was scripting the motion
19:18:11 <Ilari> The script is written in Lua.
19:18:35 <ais523> no, as in, what the motion actually was
19:18:45 <ais523> was it just the camera zooming through the levels?
19:19:20 <Ilari> The motion data is depicted as camera moving (plus some bars for distance, speed, fuel and oxygen).
19:19:55 <Ilari> Motiondata looks like: "12,8265000010,29988,29952,34062,10240,202458,900,12:RA".
19:20:11 <ais523> what was the source of the motion data?
19:20:17 <ais523> grr, it's so hard to phrase this question correctly
19:20:29 <Ilari> Game memory while playing back movie.
19:21:04 <Ilari> Skyroads TAS (third version).
19:21:09 <AnMaster> ais523, what about altitude difference, how do you create that
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19:21:14 <ais523> that was the question I was trying to ask
19:21:22 <ais523> AnMaster: some tilesets have a raise/lower terrain type
19:21:28 <ais523> left-click to raise, right-click to lower
19:21:34 <ais523> although you can't lower beyond ground level for some reason
19:21:41 <AnMaster> ais523, for indoors stairs and such?
19:21:41 <ais523> some don't, because altitude-change tiles aren't implemented in them
19:21:49 <ais523> stairs are a sort of feature
19:21:56 <ais523> you'll find different sorts of stairs for different situations
19:22:04 <ais523> like stairs in corridor, stairs at corner of livingroom, etc
19:22:26 <AnMaster> ais523, is there an altitude change involved?
19:22:47 <ais523> it's just a tile which happens to be less flat than usual
19:23:12 <AnMaster> ais523, what about stairs with platform at top/bottom and then a door a bit further away?
19:23:13 <ais523> as in, the details of the actual shape of the tiles aren't something the editor bothers with, except to render them
19:23:27 <ais523> that's how all the stairs work
19:23:34 <ais523> there's a doorway built-in to the stair tile
19:23:39 <ais523> with nothing beyond it
19:23:52 <ais523> no, it's actually incredibly simple
19:24:04 <ais523> the simplest thing that could possibly work, more or less
19:24:37 <ais523> you can prove it in-game; find a stairway going upwards, open the door, then rotate the camera 180 degrees so the door doesn't trigger and click on the nearside of the door
19:24:46 <ais523> you'll end up in a black space with no way to go but back the way you came
19:26:09 <Ilari> Running same kind of render for skyxmas (from second skyxmas TAS).
19:47:39 <cheater99> oerjan: but functions in python aren't first-order objects
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20:08:12 * Sgeo__ decides that cheater99 is drunk or troll
20:17:52 <cheater99> so that i don't forget to tell him later
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20:43:05 <Sgeo__> I meant the comment about Python's functions
20:43:37 <Sgeo__> Unless by "first-order" you mean something other than first-class
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21:14:26 <zzo38> Can we make it that the file descriptors in the "fd" directory can be removed, created, and change symbolic links, that you can change file descriptors of a process in that way?
21:15:08 <Ilari> zzo38: Except those links are pretty magic...
21:16:12 <zzo38> Ilari: Like what kind of magic?
21:16:37 <zzo38> Can it be done, you can have a file /proc/$$/kill that if you write anything to that file it sends a signal to the process?
21:16:50 <zzo38> And that you can change permissions on the file to set who can send signals?
21:16:51 <ais523> zzo38: you'd probably have to change the kernel a bit
21:17:02 <ais523> changing permissions would be a lot harder, proc isn't a normal sort of filesystem
21:17:03 <Ilari> zzo38: Those links point to inodes, not really files.
21:17:21 <ais523> the problem is, that as soon as a process stops running, its proc directory disappears
21:17:35 <ais523> so changing it permanently wouldn't really make a lot of sense
21:17:45 <ais523> you have a very Plan9y sort of idea there, though
21:19:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Very Plan9y.
21:19:39 <pikhq> Also, yeah, all of /proc is pretty magical.
21:24:46 <zzo38> You wouldn't change it permanently, of course!
21:25:28 <zzo38> If the links point to inodes instead of to files, then the procfs should convert it once it is added?
21:26:40 <zzo38> There is /proc/$$/environ but maybe there can be /proc/$$/env/ directory for each environment variable one file?
21:27:10 <zzo38> And also a directory /proc/$$/9p/ which contains a filesystem that the process program can create itself.
21:28:36 <zzo38> And library function calls for X and stuff, that you can use a function call to add a predefined directory into /proc/$$/9p/ such as a directory that X can provide to send window message, that widget sets can provide to change/read values, etc.
21:29:10 <zzo38> And the program can have its own files in /9p/ as well such as if you have FTP client that the /9p/ directory contains the directories and files from the computer you connected to
21:31:49 <zzo38> And a new signal SIGVAP to cause it to remove a process and free its memory, unconditionally (cannot be caught or ignored), and does nothing else (so SIGCHLD is not sent to its parent process, etc)
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21:41:17 <zzo38> Where do I get a printout of CWEB?
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23:37:37 <cpressey> I have discovered that I have no love for AT&T.
23:37:57 <cpressey> How's it going with you? Did they pick you for jury duty?
23:37:58 <calamari> does anyone? they just wanted the iphone
23:38:10 <calamari> nope.. would have been a good one too
23:38:36 <calamari> guy was accused of possessing and transporting meth
23:38:55 <calamari> but it was inevitable I wouldn't be picked because they wouldn't want a libertarian on the jury
23:39:18 <cpressey> That could make things difficult, I suppose.
23:39:24 <calamari> because they'd end up with a hung jury
23:40:41 <wareya> I get caught with meth and I end up getting a mistrial
23:41:36 <calamari> thing is, drug dealers (at least if they have any sense) also hate libertarians.. because legalizing drugs would mean they were out of a job
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23:42:14 <wareya> I'm aware; I had a weed dealer living in my house for a while, and he joked about that all the time.
23:43:04 <wareya> He wasn't rich, but he got enough to sustain himself.
23:43:29 <wareya> He sold food that he bougth with foodstamps to his friends, so he must have had plenty to eat.
23:45:12 <calamari> okay this 4x4x4 cube is too easy now, need to get a 5x5x5
23:45:49 <cpressey> calamari: Are there any tutorials you can recommend for getting started with Atari 2600 coding?
23:46:03 <calamari> oh yeah.. who is that wanted to create his own os?
23:46:28 <calamari> cpressey: ooh, thinking of writing a game?
23:46:39 <cpressey> calamari: alise? At least? (Maybe me, except not really?) :)
23:47:07 <cpressey> Well, thinking of writing... something with colorful blocks... at least to start.
23:47:15 <calamari> does she have the atari 2600 basic programming cartridge?
23:47:35 <calamari> I think you can enter like 6 lines of code
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23:47:53 <wareya> I know someone who's trying to write an OS to run on N64 emulators
23:48:07 <cpressey> To be clear, it's me who wants to code something for Atari 2600 (not in basic though) and alise who wants to write an OS (presumably *not* for the Atari 2600.)
23:48:44 <calamari> argh I really need to fix my webpage
23:49:02 <calamari> looking for those links for you Chris
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23:50:09 <cpressey> Thanks. Well, I'm looking at the tutorials listed on http://www.atariage.com/2600/programming/index.html to start.
23:50:42 <calamari> here was a game I started but didn't finish due to not being able to get the paddle motion right http://kidsquid.99k.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=radialpong
23:51:15 <cpressey> When I learned that there is no "bitmap" for the VCS (that you have to write a display routine that manipulates the raster rather directly), I decided I had to write *something* for it, some day.
23:51:17 <calamari> but it shows step by step as I discovered things and fixed bugs, so maybe it'll help?
23:51:41 <calamari> yeah it's not the easiest system to program for
23:52:00 <cpressey> The earlier versions will probably help a lot as examples, yes.
23:53:23 <cpressey> Especially if I can compile it and hack around with it a bit.
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23:55:27 <calamari> note the link to the stella mailing list..
23:55:34 <cpressey> calamari: I really don't know yet :)
23:55:47 <calamari> http://www.biglist.com/lists/stella/archives/
23:56:35 <cpressey> Yes. I wrote a 2K game for the Commodore 64 last year (well, converted an old BASIC game to 6502).
23:56:56 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/bescape2k/