00:00:23 <oerjan> "Of course. Clearly I and the Pope are 2 people. Since 1=2, I and the Pope are 1, thus I am the Pope."
00:01:07 <CakeProphet> ha. Was this at conversation pace? I would have to ponder that one for a while.
00:01:10 <oerjan> (very vaguely from memory, as usual :) )?
00:01:20 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Probably.
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00:01:31 <oerjan> no idea. i doubt he took very long, this being russell after all
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00:02:22 <pikhq> My calculus teacher demonstrated, from x/0 = 0, that there is exactly 1 person in the world, named Ben, who is a carrot.
00:02:24 <aliseiphone> pikhq: How hard would writing a USB stack for 386BSD be, do you think?
00:02:39 <pikhq> (there were a few other things there, though I forgot them)
00:02:44 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Annoying.
00:03:35 <CakeProphet> In my philosophy book there was another anecdote about Russell: he was riding a bicycle one morning and suddenly shouted "My God, the ontological argument works!" and became a Catholic afterwards.
00:03:35 <pikhq> One of the easier driver stacks to implement.
00:03:48 <pikhq> It's all documented, you see.
00:04:33 <pikhq> 3 host-side chips in common use, and only a few peripheral drivers to write to get 99% of hardware to work.
00:04:34 <CakeProphet> no I think he was at one point. he converted back later.
00:04:59 <pikhq> (there is a single interface device driver. There is a single webcam driver. There is a single storage driver. And so on.)
00:05:32 <oerjan> "It has also received its share of criticism from non-Christians: Bertrand Russell noted that "The argument does not, to a modern mind, seem very convincing, but it is easier to feel convinced that it must be fallacious than it is to find out precisely where the fallacy lies."[18] Conversely, during his early Hegelian phase, Russell is also known to have said: "Great God in Boots! -- the ontological argument is sound!""
00:05:44 <oerjan> i conclude he got better :D
00:06:48 <Oranjer> it's ontological arguments all the way down
00:07:22 <CakeProphet> if the anecdote is true, I would say Catholicism was a poor choice in religion. I mean, he could have chosen any other theistic religion instead.
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00:08:03 <CakeProphet> ha. I'm a Discordian, not a pagan. It is the Catholics who are pagans.
00:08:03 <Oranjer> "despite what Zeno said, I have my moments"
00:08:27 * oerjan has sometimes concluded the reason he never gets any programming (or anything else for that matter) done is because he's allergic to yak hairs.
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00:09:00 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: do you read through old #esoteric logs in your free time or something? Oh, wait, I forgot that you also go by ehird. :)
00:09:04 <olsner> I thought avoiding yak shaving would be a good thing
00:09:07 <cpressey> I never get any esolangs designed because I have to write freaking example programs for them showing you can accomplish branching and looping. Uggh.
00:09:07 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: You then claimed to have tried most religions, "including atheism", then went on about being asexual and how works.
00:09:21 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: ah. yes, these are my younger, more confused days.
00:09:30 <oerjan> olsner: when you _can_ do it, i presume
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00:09:54 <olsner> cpressey: why do you use branching and looping as examples then? do something funnier, like esolang interpreters instea
00:09:56 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Pagan does not mean "a religion that disagrees with me", regardless of what some idiots may feel.
00:10:12 <oerjan> but not when it means you give up every project as soon as you get to the minor boring parts
00:10:24 <cpressey> olsner: It's that old "But is it Turing-complete???" thing. I know, I know...
00:10:31 <pikhq> "Pagan" refers to most polytheistic non-Abrahamic religions.
00:10:38 <CakeProphet> pikhq: No, I believe that is how it was originally used. I think it became associated with movements such as neo-paganism after-the-fact.
00:10:50 <olsner> cpressey: an interpreter for a turing-complete language would concisely prove that it is in fact turing complete
00:11:08 <cpressey> olsner: Yes, guess what I need to be able to do to write one? Branch and loop :/
00:11:08 <aliseiphone> pikhq: If paganism is religions I disagree with, then Christianity is paganism.
00:11:13 <pikhq> In particular, folk religions practiced in Europe before & during the introduction of Christianity to Europe.
00:11:32 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Well, in my current language anyway, yes.
00:11:34 <CakeProphet> pikhq: ah, okay. Then yes, you are correct.
00:11:50 <CakeProphet> but wasn't "pagan" originally used by non-pagans?
00:11:53 <aliseiphone> cpressey: oerjan is good at figuring out ways to structure such things >:)
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00:11:57 <olsner> in particular, you don't need to make *examples* of branching and looping, at most you'll need to *use* branching and looping
00:12:17 <pikhq> CakeProphet: It comes from Latin "paganus", meaning "country dweller".
00:12:28 <pikhq> Oh wait actually. *No*.
00:12:35 <pikhq> It was originally used by the fucking Romans.
00:13:18 <oerjan> the romans liked to fuck out in the country
00:13:37 <CakeProphet> well, in any case, I wasn't using the word literally. I was actually using the "barbaric religion" connotation that it has. You know, for "humor" and all.
00:13:43 <olsner> so what did the sexually inactive romans call the pagans?
00:14:15 <pikhq> olsner: No such thing.
00:14:19 <oerjan> aliseiphone: yes, you are the pure and innocent youngster of the channel. carry on.
00:14:28 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Yes, the Catholics are barbaric.
00:14:46 <aliseiphone> oerjan: Thanks for not carrying on the Hamlet innuendo, nitwit. :(
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00:15:25 <oerjan> aliseiphone: ah. next time you want to get people to join in shakespeare quotes, i suggest you try a native english speaker.
00:15:47 <CakeProphet> ha. no. Most native English speakers know nothing about Hamlet.
00:15:49 <pikhq> oerjan: No, that's worse.
00:16:13 <aliseiphone> oerjan: Specifically I was referencing the interpretation of country as cuntry.
00:16:36 <pikhq> I have found that many native speakers have low competence in the written language.
00:16:59 <cpressey> pikhq: No, "a religion that disagrees with me" -- that's "Heathen".
00:16:59 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, although you claim that C# is mind poisoning, is it safe to say that's it's one of the less mind-poisoning popular-for-business languages?
00:17:00 <oerjan> aliseiphone: i might have realized that if i had realized shakespeare was actually involved
00:17:45 <pikhq> aliseiphone: "Nothing", FWIW, was slang for vagina.
00:17:45 <CakeProphet> so, continuing our "false implies everything" discussion. The only thing I can logically imply from the statement "false" is "not true", and derivatives such as "not not not true" and "not not false". Is that about the extent of what "false" can imply?
00:17:47 <oerjan> cpressey: um i'm pretty sure "heathen" must be a calque on "pagan"...
00:17:48 <cpressey> Of course, heathen, heath, country dweller, same thing linguistically, probably.
00:17:55 <aliseiphone> oerjan: (Following "lie in lap" for "sex", then "I mean, my head in your lap" for "sex"; followed by "nothing" for "vagina".)
00:18:39 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: I would say C# is not mind-poisoning at all.
00:18:44 <aliseiphone> Programming jobs with popular languages SUCK. Full stop.
00:18:54 <cpressey> I tried to write something in C# once.
00:19:00 <pikhq> C is used for business. By "business" I mean "actually getting shit *done*", not merely hacking together a piece of shit.
00:19:24 <aliseiphone> Mind numbing tedious pointless —boss changes requirements— at home now, never want to see a computer again
00:19:27 <pikhq> (the hacking together pieces of shit jobs have moved on to trendier languages.)
00:19:30 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: You know, I would actually generalize that statement and say that no abstract concept can poison your mind. Only certain molecules upon ingestion...
00:19:32 <cpressey> Ah, I see the confusion here. "Landing a job" often has nothing to do with "actually getting shit done".
00:20:08 <cpressey> CakeProphet: I would be on the other side of that argument.
00:20:18 <cpressey> If you meant, poison your *brain*, then sure.
00:20:20 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: Hurf durf literal interpretation
00:20:28 <olsner> C# is only as bad as Java
00:20:54 <CakeProphet> cpressey: ah. Perhaps. But I don't feel like getting into dualism at the moment. :P Should be saving all that thought for the stuff I have to write about dualism in my philosophy class that I've been horridly procrastinating.
00:21:20 <cpressey> But, yeah. I don't think C# or Java will poison your mind. Not like PHP will, at any rate.
00:21:21 <oerjan> CakeProphet: in boolean logic the fact that false implies everything follows from the definition of "A implies B" as "not A, or B"
00:21:43 <cpressey> CakeProphet: If you like. But I'm not really a dualist. I just make certain distinctions.
00:22:10 <CakeProphet> oerjan: that's (not A) or B correct? The command confused me.
00:22:11 <oerjan> in intuitionistic logic it is also true, but from different principles, in fact (false -> anything) may be an axiom there
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00:23:48 <CakeProphet> so since the assumption if false, nothing is actually proven, right? And that's why you can imply anything?
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00:24:35 <CakeProphet> The 1=2 implies I am the Pope was a good example of that.
00:25:39 <Sgeo> The book arrived today
00:25:40 * coppro treats CakeProphet Right Good Forever
00:26:07 <cpressey> CakeProphet: It's on your certificate.
00:27:30 <cpressey> CakeProphet: For further information, consult your pineal gland.
00:27:55 <CakeProphet> cpressey: I am never without consultation from it.
00:28:09 <oerjan> well technically it says you have to be speaking from your pope chair
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00:29:30 <CakeProphet> My pope chair is whichever chair I happen to be sitting in. Or, in the case that I am not sitting, it is the non-existent chair that I am speaking from.
00:30:09 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Ex_cathedra
00:30:28 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: usurp? Why? You're a pope too!
00:30:29 <pikhq> CakeProphet: And your pope hat?
00:30:44 <cpressey> Sadly, there's not all that much renegade-y about most Discordian popes these days.
00:31:27 <oerjan> i put on my pope rope and hat
00:31:53 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Didn't used to be, but yes. It went thud.
00:32:30 <pikhq> And they pay their taxes.
00:32:35 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Less intellectual. Not always a bad thing.
00:33:00 <aliseiphone> Discordianism is only intellectual if you count numerology.
00:33:14 <CakeProphet> cpressey: A good Discordian pope should not follow any customs. The reason there are no good Discordian popes is that Discordianism encourages you to commit blasphemous acts. Going off alone and partaking joyously of a hotdog on a friday is an example of this encouragement.
00:33:18 <cpressey> aliseiphone: I refer to Discordians who think it gives them some kind of "insight".
00:33:32 <CakeProphet> cpressey: so breaking the rules is a custom...
00:33:40 <aliseiphone> cpressey: He just quoted scripture at you.
00:33:48 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Yes yes I am aware of the invisible taxicabs.
00:34:15 <cpressey> All Cretans are liars, but snappy dressers.
00:35:56 <aliseiphone> Christ on flotilla; forecast firey fornication. Tantalisingly, tarantula in tepid water taps...
00:36:12 <CakeProphet> cpressey: And no, I don't derive any insight at all from practicing Discordianism. It's just another blinding dogma.
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00:37:50 <cpressey> CakeProphet: I'm a lapsed Discordian myself.
00:38:35 <CakeProphet> The main problem with Discordianism is that it is very very difficult to explain to someone.
00:39:22 <CakeProphet> the easiesy reply is generally "It's a parody religion", but that's not quite comprehensive.
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00:40:40 <cpressey> I've never seen a point in explaining it.
00:40:45 <CakeProphet> I guess if I had to explain it to someone quickly I would say it's the intellectual pursuit of paradox.
00:43:46 <cpressey> I gotta go. I have a hammer to build. Or was it an anvil?
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00:44:42 <oerjan> as long as you nail it down.
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01:19:53 <cheater99> anyone else notice that Raymond from Everyone Loves Raymond looks just like Ellen DeGeneres?
01:20:32 <oerjan> (the fact i don't watch tv _might_ have something to do with it.)
01:27:34 <cheater99> but when he's not flashing his teeth
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02:32:55 <zzo38> Do you know some things about makefiles? So that I can add in a third program to Enhanced CWEB, after Tangle and Weave. That it should be able to be used in place of makefiles. If you know some things you can suggest it
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02:46:26 <Sgeo> Thought clog's notice was some weird error that Freenode or XChat was giving me
02:47:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: Why did you think that?
02:47:42 <Sgeo> I processed "ERRMSG unknown CTCP" sooner than I processed what was saying it
02:48:35 <zzo38> Did you know, the clog log files suppress everything with CTRL+A if it is not ACTION
02:48:47 <zzo38> (Only if that is the first character)
02:50:25 <Sgeo> Shall I assume you meant CTCPs?
02:50:36 <Sgeo> Or that ^A is in fact a fundamental part of CTCPs?
02:50:41 <zzo38> Yes but CTCPs all start with CTRL+A
02:50:55 <Sgeo> Is the character I pasted in fact CTRL+A?
02:51:02 <zzo38> The one you wrote is a unicode text, using the CP437 representation of CTRL+A converted to unicode
02:51:23 <zzo38> The one before "Test"
02:53:27 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions/comments having to do with the makefile stuff?
02:53:42 <zzo38> (So far I did put meta-macros, but not stuff for makefile stuff)
02:55:02 <Sgeo> Um.. don't use Asylum?
02:55:12 <Sgeo> [which is a dead project anyway, so moot suggestion[
02:55:26 <zzo38> Asylum? I wasn't planning on it.
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02:55:37 <zzo38> I am planning on making my own.
02:55:46 <Sgeo> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/4361.aspx
02:55:46 <zzo38> And adding it as a third program to Enhanced CWEB.
02:56:03 <zzo38> I would like to know what makefiles features you suggest and stuff like that.
02:56:32 <Sgeo> I know nothing about makefiles
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02:59:08 <zzo38> One of my ideas is having a file in /etc/ and one in your home directory, one named in an environment variable, and then those will be read for the settings, and then the @r directives can tell it additional make rules.
02:59:51 <zzo38> (And all the other stuff can still be used together with it, such as @i to include and @m and @- for meta-macros, and so on)
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03:01:04 <zzo38> This way I can make it improved instead of using the "make" command with makefiles, it can be a improved way instead.
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03:06:06 <Ilari> Fun. I can't figure out how to make unbound-host accept trust anchor for '.', but can make unbound itself accept the trust anchors (I get AD bit back for e.g. www.nic.cz).
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04:04:25 <zzo38> Old makefiles you might need to use a configure script, or autoconf, or manually edit the settings in the makefile, and only one makefile per directory, my way is different so that you can have common files and separate files, and so on.
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04:13:30 <zzo38> Perhaps the third program can be called CSPIDER maybe (completely unrelated to any program that might be called SPIDER you might have for various uses, and isn't used in Pascal WEB for the same purpose either) (you can suggest a different name if you want), you can type in "cspider this_is_not_a_pipe" (if the program is called "this_is_not_a_pipe.w") and then based on @r commands in the file (and in include files and meta-macros) can tell it wh
04:14:19 <zzo38> And then you can put parameters +C to tangle and compile only (no weave), +T to tangle only (no compile or weave), +W for weave only (no tangle), +F to tell it to fake everything without actually calling any other programs, and so on
04:14:37 <zzo38> (Yes, it does have to be a plus sign instead of minus signs, because this is how CWEB works)
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04:15:35 <zzo38> What is your opinion of these last three lines (not this one) what I wrote?
04:16:25 <AndChat-> My opinion is that I want to unscrewup my computer
04:17:25 <zzo38> AndChat-: OK that is good that you might want to do so but it is not what I wrote.
04:17:37 <zzo38> What is wrong with your computer anyways?
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04:24:09 <zzo38> Now I asked four questions
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04:54:39 <SgeoN1> Sorry, wasn't paying attemtion
04:54:39 <SgeoN1> Try to boot normally, and it freezes with a black screen and mouse cursor
04:54:39 <SgeoN1> Safe mode, and it bsods
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05:31:38 <pikhq> Random thought: as we all know, machine translation sucks.
05:31:47 <pikhq> But what about machine *gloss generation*?
05:32:33 <pikhq> Converting, say, 今日はお元気ですか。 into "Today (sub) well-feeling (copula) (question)."
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07:13:09 <Gregor-L> pikhq: Why is that "gloss generation"?
07:13:33 <pikhq> Gregor-L: Because it's not translating anything, but just providing hints at what each individual word means.
07:14:12 <Gregor-L> What I don't understand is why that's "gloss generation"
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07:14:45 <pikhq> Because it's a gloss, and I am discussing the idea of machine generation of this.
07:15:14 <Gregor-L> gloss (n): # an explanation or definition of an obscure word in a text
07:15:21 <Gregor-L> I had literally never seen that use of that word before.
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07:15:31 <Gregor> Same root as Glossary?
07:16:43 <pikhq> It's also used to explain more than just "obscure" words when the gloss is in a different language than the word being glossed.
07:17:10 <pikhq> For instance, the example gloss I gave even glossed the particle は, which is about on par with glossing "the". ;)
07:17:19 <Gregor> If I don't know wtf it means, it's obscure to me.
07:18:38 <Gregor> So yeah, the rest of Op. 13 Mov 2.
07:18:42 <Gregor> It's either awesome or I'm delusional.
07:19:09 <AnMaster> ever thought about the trivial way of making a language where all programs will have to output palindromes?
07:19:38 <Gregor> AnMaster: The only valid input is the empty string. The "interpreter" outputs a random palindrome.
07:19:51 <AnMaster> select a suitable reversible language. Make exit condition be reversing so it hits the first character
07:20:18 <AnMaster> thus the same output will be written twice, in different directions
07:21:09 <AnMaster> Gregor, think that would work?
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13:59:30 <cheater99> http://www.buzzfeed.com/alexandr/george-costanza-the-original-hipster-1cms
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14:42:05 <CakeProphet> lambdabot> bf <expr>. Evaluate a brainf*ck expression
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14:50:22 <alise> Do you know what's nice? A 118 ppi screen.
14:50:30 <alise> Do you know what's not nice? Everything else!
14:52:57 <alise> You know how I was saying I used Python for the easy gtk?
14:53:09 <alise> http://bkhome.org/genie/index.html Grep "/* GTK+". Looks like I've found something better.
14:53:31 <alise> It compiles natively! It has proper lambda! It supports GTK signals natively!
14:53:47 <alise> Its syntax is like Python's but better!
14:54:01 <alise> Also statically typed!
15:05:47 <alise> pikhq: So does Lucid Puppy 5.0 use Kdrive?
15:08:00 <CakeProphet> alise: rofl. "It has proper lambda!" isn't that a function of the language and not a GUI toolkit? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by lambda?
15:08:23 <alise> CakeProphet: Yeah, turns out Genie is a language. Who'da thunk it?
15:08:47 <alise> It's not like it says it on the page or anything.
15:09:19 <CakeProphet> I am too apathetic to click links. It requires a right-click, then a left-click, and then much waiting. Simply too much work in this modern world.
15:09:31 <alise> Oh, I see; you have X-Chat set to "retarded" mode.
15:09:46 <CakeProphet> well, no. I use irssi. I'm not sure why, but it works.
15:09:59 <alise> And I have my hatred of touchpads set to maximum. Grr....
15:10:34 <alise> OTOH, I can't really get out my mouse; there's no convenient surface to use it on and I don't feel like moving.
15:10:50 <alise> And really, I have little to complain about; this laptop is awesome.
15:11:00 <CakeProphet> If touchpads transmitted my thoughts to computer interfaces... then my opinion would change entirely.
15:11:38 <alise> Lighter than I thought possible, long-lasting battery life, acceptable keyboard -- very thin but the keys are big and mostly in sane places, screen is wonderfully high-dpi, works in the daylight and the glossiness is somehow completely covered by the images on the screen, and it's very bright...
15:11:45 <CakeProphet> I used a napkin as a mousepad for several months. I was in college so I can defend such an action.
15:11:49 <alise> You can't tell the dual-core CPU is only 1.3 GHz or so...
15:12:20 <alise> And the hard disk appears to be invincible and silent.
15:12:25 <CakeProphet> my celeron D is 3.3 ghz. :) This was back before cores existed.
15:12:48 <alise> (I don't think it's an SSD, because it was too cheap for that, which leads on to my final thing I like about it: It was so cheap for all of this!)
15:12:55 <alise> I mean, not netbook cheap, but...
15:13:06 <alise> This thing is as good, or better than, a ThinkPad, at half the price.
15:13:20 <alise> CakeProphet: A 13.3" Toshiba Satellite; T150 or something.
15:13:40 <CakeProphet> I'm considering overclocking my celeron, as I've read they can generally clock much faster but for some reason they're set to a lower speed upon manufacture.
15:13:49 <alise> Oh, and it's silent, this thing.
15:13:52 <alise> Seriously. The fan /never/ goes on.
15:13:57 <alise> And when it does, it's inaudible.
15:14:14 <CakeProphet> but I can't find a bios that allows me to set clock rate for my PC, and I don't really think I can do it manually.
15:14:16 <alise> You know, I always thought a 1.3 GHz ultra-low voltage processor would be too slow ... but this thing is faster than my other machines.
15:14:22 <alise> Seriously. It just runs smoothly.
15:14:38 <alise> CPUs are so good these days that GHz hardly matters, and 4 GiB of RAM does a lot of good.
15:14:46 <alise> CakeProphet: Overclocking laptops is basically a bad idea.
15:14:54 <alise> Their cooling systems are weak.
15:15:01 <alise> CakeProphet: Celeron? On a desktop?
15:15:10 <alise> Celeron is a laptop processor.
15:15:16 <CakeProphet> it's an older Dell. I don't remember which year, and no.
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15:15:24 <alise> Oh, it's the "budget" line.
15:15:41 <CakeProphet> it was budget when it was new. Now it's a probably over half a decade old.
15:15:52 <alise> This thing is a "Pentium", which means "one specific model of Core 2 Duo ultra-low voltage".
15:16:13 <alise> Well, a "Pentium Dual-Core", which if taken to mean the original Pentium would produce the most horrifically hilarious processor ever.
15:16:21 <CakeProphet> had 256 MBs of RAM. So it was basically designed to run programs on your hard drive. I have since added a gig of RAM and it did wonders to responsiveness.
15:16:39 <alise> 4 GiB of RAM here, which I already mentioned but damn it's nice.
15:16:47 <alise> All of this for 475 or so.
15:16:57 <CakeProphet> except for when Chrome freaks out and ends up creating huge amounts of swap after running for days, memory is generally no longer a problem. CPU is the limiting factor.
15:17:11 <alise> Which is $730, but with exchange rates these days, who knows what it was when I bought it.
15:18:01 <alise> Anyway, tl;dr: if this thing had a proper mouse, and a way to detach the computer from the monitor so I could use it on a desk in a more ergonomic position, I'd probably chuck away my other machines.
15:18:16 <CakeProphet> I might try firefox again now that the new version is out. Chromes multi-process design makes absolutely no sense to me. It's better suited to lightweight threads than OS processes.
15:18:26 <alise> Well, I guess 13.3" could get a little cramped every now and then, but it's 1336x768, so it's high DPI and I have room to move windows about (when I can stomach touching the trackpad).
15:18:48 <alise> It's so high DPI, in fact, that even freetype's shitty subpixel rendering just looks smooth and pretty on it.
15:19:02 <alise> Yes indeed, the screen makes Linux have good font rendering: I think it might use gnomes.
15:19:30 <CakeProphet> I've never really noticed poor font rendering on my machine, but maybe I just don't care enough to notice.
15:19:59 <alise> I didn't give half a shit until I bought a Mac in ... December 2006.
15:20:06 <alise> My eyes were suddenly happy and I liked reading shit.
15:20:25 <alise> CakeProphet: Yeah...
15:20:30 <alise> It was ~1,000 at the time.
15:20:49 <alise> Well, I think just under; high 900s. This was way before the recession so god knows what that is in dollars.
15:20:54 <alise> (There was a sale on.)
15:21:04 <alise> Still, while it was pricey, it served me for many years.
15:21:15 <alise> 2006 to 2010, or thereabouts.
15:21:24 <CakeProphet> Having the Apple logo on the case must cost $1000 or something... that's the only reason I can think for the expense.
15:21:28 <alise> Sure, it aged a bit towards the end, but 4 years of service is pretty damn good.
15:21:44 <alise> CakeProphet: Actually... I hate Apple now, but I have to defend their prices.
15:21:53 <alise> Macs aren't reliable because of the OS, that's bullshit, OS X isn't that stable.
15:22:02 <alise> Macs are reliable because /the hardware is damn good/.
15:22:22 <alise> Seriously, underneath that carved aluminium -- which, btw, is pretty expensive itself -- are some of the best computer components money can buy.
15:22:25 <CakeProphet> I suppose, but I do believe there's quite a bit of branding involved.
15:22:33 <alise> Plus the new iMacs, even the low-end ones, have a /IPS/ screen.
15:22:44 <alise> Allow me to translate: "Expensive-ass professional photographer's screen".
15:22:54 <alise> Excessive? Maybe. But let's put it this way.
15:23:05 <alise> The lowest end iMac is cheaper than the cheapest IPS display. And it comes with a free computer.
15:23:15 <alise> CakeProphet: Of course. Apple are a boutique company.
15:23:29 <alise> But I think they'd have a hard time selling it cheaper, even if you ignore OS development costs.
15:24:21 <alise> When I was young I was wondering why someone didn't just sell computers for a pound, then so many people would buy them that they would get even richer than the current companies. I don't think I quite understood how profit worked at that point.
15:24:22 <CakeProphet> I was thinking either Toshiba or Dell for a new laptop.
15:24:37 <alise> CakeProphet: Can I humbly recommend Toshiba, assuming their brand new models are as good as this one?
15:24:51 <alise> Dell are alright, but... Toshiba are just higher-quality, and no more expensive.
15:25:19 <CakeProphet> I was considering Dell because they can be ordered with Ubuntu, which I thought would reduce cost. But I don't believe it's any cheaper than getting Vista.
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15:26:10 <alise> Yeah, it's roughly the same price.
15:26:12 <cpressey> No, no, it was totally a hammer.
15:26:16 <CakeProphet> and I have a free ISO image of Windows 7 via university... so I'm not really concerned at all with which operating systems come on the computer, as long as it doesn't affect price.
15:26:21 <alise> Getting a "no OS" version, i.e. FreeDOS, is the only one that tends to be cheaper.
15:26:31 <alise> And they'd probably put Dell shit on the Ubuntu installation anyway.
15:26:48 <CakeProphet> oh? I didn't know they sold "no OS" versions of things. I'm a complete novice at computer buying.
15:26:50 <alise> (They ship FreeDOS because /in the US, it is illegal to sell a computer without an operating system installed/.)
15:26:53 <alise> (I am not joking.)
15:27:00 <alise> CakeProphet: Only on dell.com, I guess. But honestly, I'd just recommend Toshiba.
15:27:27 <alise> Ubuntu, why can't you burn an ISO to a USB stick? You are a failure.
15:27:36 <CakeProphet> I suppose a computer with no OS is technically a weapon. It has no other function than to be bashed upon someone's head.
15:27:50 <alise> Or to, you know, put an install disk in. :-)
15:28:41 <CakeProphet> System -> Adminstration -> startup disk creator
15:29:09 <alise> And if I'm not trying to burn Ubuntu?
15:29:49 <CakeProphet> I can't imagine why it wouldn't work with any other iso. :P Unless they compare checksums, but that sounds like something Windows would do.
15:29:51 <alise> New question: Why is that not supported in Brasero, the burning application?
15:30:02 <alise> CakeProphet: They might rejiggle syslinux -> isolinux.
15:30:12 <alise> In an Ubuntu-specific way.
15:30:20 <CakeProphet> ......this nomenclature is completely new to me.
15:30:21 <alise> *isolinux -> syslinux.
15:30:29 <alise> Or they might /not/, say, if Ubuntu no longer uses isolinux; that would break Puppy, which does.
15:30:41 <alise> CakeProphet: ISOLINUX is the from-CD version of the SYSLINUX bootloader.
15:30:55 <alise> ISOLINUX will only work on a CD, so you have to rename the stuff to SYSLINUX and run SYSLINUX on it.
15:31:00 <CakeProphet> ah. And what does one do when "rejiggling" :P
15:31:29 <alise> Rename isolinux directory to syslinux, rename the configuration file the same way. Run syslinux on the USB stick.
15:31:39 <alise> Actually, I'm not entirely sure you have to do that.
15:31:48 <CakeProphet> ...why on earth would they use different directory names?
15:31:54 <CakeProphet> just to make things that much more complicated?
15:32:15 <alise> It seems that the Startup Disk Creator rejects non-Ubuntu ISOs.
15:32:25 <alise> cpressey: Hey, we just agreed that Discordianism is boring. :P
15:32:44 <CakeProphet> alise: if by "we" you mean your multiple personalities, then yes.
15:32:50 <alise> No, me and cpressey.
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15:33:15 <CakeProphet> technically Discordianism was just created.
15:33:19 <cpressey> alise: I cannot honour that agreement.
15:33:46 <alise> CakeProphet: Also, don't you think making jokes about my mental health when I'm stuck in an institution is maybe just a liittle distasteful?
15:34:01 <alise> (Not right now, of course, but on weekdays.)
15:34:48 <CakeProphet> alise: not if you're confident in your mental health. But I see I've offended you. Wasn't intentional, and I didn't mean anything by it. I would have said the same thing to anyone else in that context.
15:35:10 <alise> Just pointing out the possible, you know, awkwardness.
15:35:36 <cpressey> Ah, are we not all completely mad in this channel? Verily, it is a joyful madness.
15:35:37 <CakeProphet> ah, okay. well yeah, I guess I thought about it. But I figured it wouldn't matter. I am a crass individual, but only online.
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15:36:23 <cpressey> I have a whole bunch of gnarly Javascript to write today!
15:36:26 <CakeProphet> Man Alise is so crazy, I hope he doesn't logs. olololol
15:36:37 <CakeProphet> cpressey: "gnarly" is a fitting word, then.
15:37:39 <cpressey> jQuery will not save it. It will only soften the blow.
15:38:09 <CakeProphet> you will get two kinds of errors: a) null object has no attribute "blah" b) unexpected object has no attribute "blah"
15:38:25 <CakeProphet> I suppose they're the same error, actually.
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15:40:26 <alise> Duh, I can just use unetbootin.
15:41:50 <alise> So, I just realised that smallX /also has its own Xlib/!
15:41:55 <alise> i.e., holy shit it really is tiny!
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15:42:26 <CakeProphet> Good. for a moment I considered that you might actually heart internet explorer. :)
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15:42:40 <alise> Of course I don't! *shifty eyes*
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15:45:41 <CakeProphet> I should run it in Wine and see how well it runs Windows programs.
15:46:28 <CakeProphet> perhaps I'll run Wine for Windows in Window for Windows on Wine, to open notepad. that would be a good test.
15:50:35 <augur> CakeProphet: did you get a good explanation for how getChar worked in haskell?
15:50:58 <augur> or rather, how 'getChar >>= putChar' is referentially transparent?
15:51:01 <augur> i didnt follow that discussion, so
15:51:01 <CakeProphet> yes. I mean, I understood in the first place. I was simply pondering the meaning of referential transparency.
15:51:41 <augur> its all about what you mean by referentially transparent, yeah.
15:52:08 <CakeProphet> though, to my mind, it feels like a conceptual hack. It is true to the rule of referential transparency, but only because actions are abstract values.
15:52:35 <augur> in some sense, 'getChar' isn't referentially transparent, if you include the execution part as part of that whole thing, but if you take it to be just some instance of the IO monad that is an instruction to get a character, then its perfectly transparent
15:53:19 <CakeProphet> so a given operation will always return the same abstract "action", even though that action can be a container for wilder different values.
15:54:10 <augur> because the value of getChar isnt all there is. theres the whole main-isnt-just-evaluated thing
15:54:50 <CakeProphet> but I suppose, everything /referenced/ is the same value for the same operation. Thus, referential transparency.
15:56:04 <augur> i think theres another way to view it tho, which would be that for any given computer, you can pretend getChar has a hidden parameter, the time it's being evaluated at, and so, if you could magically access this parameter and change it, you could "re-read" form the past, always getting the same value
15:56:30 <CakeProphet> ....that's probably a bit too philosophical for what referential transparency actually means. :P
15:57:24 <CakeProphet> I'd like to play around with Elephants idea of past reference via temporal logic
15:57:25 <augur> whereas alise is the universe nomad
15:57:30 <CakeProphet> but I don't know the specifics of the semantic model.
15:57:58 <augur> eh. i think you can just think of the denotational semantics as ignoring side effects of the program
15:58:44 <augur> i mean, the good thing about like.. "getChar >>= putChar" is that the denotation is not at all related to the denotation of putChar, really
15:58:55 <CakeProphet> I wonder if you could construct temporal logic in Haskell by keeping a "history" of previous actions and then referencing them by their temporal characteristics.
15:58:58 <augur> it doesnt matter how obnoxiously complex the thing on the right is, right
15:59:05 <CakeProphet> the events they trigger, the time they occured, etc
15:59:16 <augur> the denotation of the whole thing is just some abstract IO bind instance
15:59:48 <augur> you would need some sort of thing to collect up the state of the world at every given point you realize
15:59:55 <augur> a History monad, if you will
16:00:04 <augur> say, a list of State monads
16:00:18 <augur> first is most recent
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16:02:45 <CakeProphet> "When you press the switch down, you launch missiles, and then press the switch up after 30 minutes" "forever $ do: if the switch is up, press it down."
16:03:11 <augur> CakeProphet: wtf XD
16:03:33 <CakeProphet> the first part defines an event and the consequence of that event
16:04:54 <CakeProphet> so essentially an event is a combination of procedure and state
16:05:06 <CakeProphet> when the event occurs, a procedure is executed... and a state change occurs.
16:07:03 <CakeProphet> I guess you break it up into three statements. when the switch is pressed down, you launch missiles. if the switch has been pressed down for 30 minutes, press the switch up. forever: if the switch is up, press it down.
16:07:28 <CakeProphet> maybe "always" is a better name than "forever"
16:09:18 <CakeProphet> essentially a declarative language with a notion of state and time rather than a list of sequential procedures. The first event is "program start".
16:11:28 <CakeProphet> so essentially, since it's a declarative language, the use of a term in a logical definition creates its existence... rather than requiring it to be predefined.
16:12:26 <CakeProphet> x is a tree. x has child y. x has child z. x has value 2.
16:22:09 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, that switch thing sound basically like connecting an inverter to itself. An inverter with a very long delay though
16:22:42 <AnMaster> *reads further* wait a second, where did the missiles get into it?
16:24:17 <CakeProphet> oh... that was the origina. I must have frgotten the missiles.
16:24:45 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, "language with a notion of state and time rather than a list of sequential procedures" sounds a bit like vhdl or such. Can't claim VHDL is declarative. Plus it supports sequential sections as well.
16:27:43 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, but if you want a language with a notion of state and time but not of sequence then some sort of hardware description language might be what you want
16:33:17 <CakeProphet> but basically the notion of sequence is constrained to events, consisting of sequences of "pure" logical assertions combined with other events.
16:42:00 <cpressey> CakeProphet: You might want to look at 2iota, for something similar.
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16:52:52 <cheater99> AnMaster: apple are holding a conference today
16:53:00 <cheater99> AnMaster: what happens if they don't hold it correctly??
16:53:49 <cpressey> Good god, they could accidentally drop it. Dozens could be injured.
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16:57:04 <fizzie> For some reason it's always missiles; the C++ FAQ also shoots (nuclear) missiles in an example of method binding gone wrong.
16:57:30 <fizzie> (The FQA converts the example to cats and dogs -- without missiles -- in its description, IIRC.)
16:58:49 <cheater99> alise: up 2 anything this weekend?
16:59:01 <cpressey> So, some dude found a bug in thue.c.
16:59:25 <cpressey> The original C implementation of the Thue language.
16:59:33 <alise> cheater99: killing your "2"
16:59:38 <alise> cpressey: it's C, it handles strings
16:59:41 <alise> Gee am I surprised.
16:59:49 <cheater99> alise: i don't know what my "2" is :(
17:00:01 <cpressey> alise: It's actually an error in the implementation of bubble sort used to sort the LHS's.
17:00:16 <cpressey> I don't know why the LHS's have to be sorted, though.
17:00:19 <alise> I type on an iPhone Monday to Friday, you ever see me do that? You, on the other hand, have a keyboard. Use it, dammit. >_>
17:00:26 <alise> cpressey: Who found the bug?
17:00:34 <alise> *that = "use such abbreviations"
17:00:56 <cheater99> alise: i don't have *my* keyboard here.
17:01:12 <cheater99> *my* keyboard is the ms natural 4000
17:01:12 <alise> Oh, my silver spoon is bent.
17:01:19 <cheater99> this thing is a logitech shitboard.
17:01:25 <alise> I type on a touchscreen with correct grammar and spelling. Shut it.
17:01:41 <cheater99> well what can i do, you get a freakin' spellcheck
17:01:42 <cpressey> alise: Just a guy who I barely know (he reported a bug in my SMITH implementation in the past.) I don't think he hangs out here.
17:02:37 <alise> Sometimes (often) the spellcheck breaks.
17:02:43 <alise> So I fix the errors myself.
17:02:52 <alise> Note that on the iPhone I still type faster than most people here.
17:02:57 <alise> Ergo speed is no excuse.
17:03:19 <cheater99> you should start hanging out with avrfreak
17:03:19 <alise> I really, really hate "u" and "2".
17:04:02 <cheater99> i'm sorry about that alise, i'm sure we'll come to a mututal agreement on some astral plane
17:04:14 <alise> "Astral plane". Also don't say that.
17:04:39 <cheater99> you didn't get the right altar, did you?
17:04:42 <alise> Because it's a New Ager term, and New Agers should be beaten to death with a cluebat.
17:05:04 <cheater99> i bet you farmed puddings for weeks
17:05:17 <cpressey> And if you don't have a cluebat handy, I hear a golf club works well too.
17:05:38 <alise> cheater99: oh, nethack.
17:05:42 <cpressey> But that's because I spend all my time in pubs listening for rumours.
17:05:44 <cheater99> i wonder if it's possible to implement a touring machine based on puddings
17:05:46 <alise> Also known as the most boring game ever formulated.
17:06:06 <cheater99> cpressey: here's a project for you ^
17:06:20 <cpressey> alise: Are you anti-roguelikes in general, or just against Nethack?
17:06:36 * cpressey tried to frickin tab-complete after typing "Neth"
17:06:39 <alise> Okay, so the Nethack hate may just be mild ADHD talking.
17:06:50 <alise> Roguelikes could be good... but only /mine/.
17:06:53 <cheater99> you're just trying to hurt my feelings
17:07:00 <cheater99> but it's ok, because it shows you care.
17:07:11 <cpressey> It's almost scary how frequently we are on the same page.
17:07:16 <alise> cpressey: Cool. :P
17:07:26 <alise> Clearly I am your ... quarter-cousin.
17:07:50 <alise> Either I have four parents, or we share 0.5 parents.
17:08:34 <alise> That would be quarter-brother.
17:08:43 <alise> God knows what a quarter-cousin is.
17:08:45 <cpressey> I loved Fargoal on the C64, I loved Moria on the Amiga 500, I quite liked ZAngband when I ran FreeBSD, but since then... yes. I did try to write my own roguelike once, in Perl. That was sort of a one-way trip.
17:09:37 <alise> cpressey: The great thing is how incompatible two not-invented-here-afflicted people are.
17:09:47 <alise> Even if they both share all design goals, they'll never be able to collaborate.
17:11:07 <cheater99> anyways, speaking of cockfight, time to get a shower, bbs
17:11:29 <alise> Awkward speaking-of there.
17:11:38 <pikhq> alise: Yes, Puppy uses Kdrive.
17:11:49 <pikhq> I think it's a custom package build.
17:11:51 <alise> Lucid Puppy uses Xorg.
17:11:54 <alise> It doesn't ship Kdrive.
17:11:55 <pikhq> Wait, it's full X?
17:11:58 <alise> Lucid Puppy sucks donkey butt.
17:12:10 <alise> It booted slowly and proceeded to be mediocre.
17:12:12 <alise> Maybe 4.0 is better.
17:12:17 <alise> CakeProphet: Yes; not played, however.
17:12:26 <pikhq> alise: Definitely Tiny Core then?
17:12:34 <CakeProphet> does it not look ridiculously awesome? I want to take some time to play it eventually, but I feel it will be one of those games that takes a long time to get into.
17:12:46 <alise> pikhq: No, no. Yak Linux
17:12:49 <cpressey> CakeProphet: I cannot play most modern games for that very reason.
17:12:54 <alise> CakeProphet: I definitely don't have that kind of attention span.
17:12:59 <cpressey> I must find my awesomeness elsewhere.
17:13:10 <alise> I have trouble playing Monkey Island II.
17:13:15 <alise> (Best game ever, though.)
17:13:18 <cpressey> Katamari Damacy is a significant exception.
17:13:25 <CakeProphet> it /makes/ a text based world... with fractal terrain and erosion, places town, and constructs a background story for the whole world.
17:14:13 <alise> cpressey: Tell me you've played at least the Secret of Monkey Island and Monkey Island II: LeChuck's Revenge.
17:14:17 <cpressey> By "text-based", do you mean roguelike? Or -- how close to rogue do you mean, I guess?
17:14:18 <alise> If not... go do so. Immediately.
17:14:51 <cpressey> alise: I played at least one of them, once. It may have been the first? I don't remember.
17:15:02 <CakeProphet> cpressey: text-based as in a line-based terminal with text display. The gameplay is somewhat different than rogue however, because there is city management.
17:15:04 <alise> cpressey: Damn, damn, that's not nearly enough familiarity. You're missing out. :P
17:16:04 <CakeProphet> and combat is highly strategic, from what I've read. I still need to play it.
17:16:08 <alise> SoMI is great fun, MI2 is just amazing (and very long)
17:16:18 <alise> I never could defeat LeChuck at the end though...
17:16:19 <cpressey> CakeProphet: By line-based, do you mean... I have to press "Enter" after I issue a command?
17:16:37 <CakeProphet> cpressey: I'm not entirely sure, but I assume so. That's how most games I've played work
17:17:10 <CakeProphet> traversing a large map, for example, might be character-input
17:17:31 <CakeProphet> as could combat. I'm only guessing though.
17:17:50 <cpressey> I had half-pictured an interactive fiction / roguelike hybrid.
17:17:59 * alise mixes kerosene, propylene glycol, sulphuric acid, artificial sweeteners, red dye no. 2, rum, acetone, battery acid, SCUMM, axle grease and/or pepperoni.
17:19:10 <alise> Gotta mix that sometime (but then stay well away from it, of course).
17:19:15 <alise> Here, CakeProphet should do it.
17:20:51 <alise> They warned about that recipe on Argentinian TV. Telling people not to drink this "Grog XD" -- the XD from a Facebook group title.
17:21:03 <alise> They had doctors wondering WTF "SCUMM" could be live on air.
17:21:10 <alise> CakeProphet: The recipe for grog from Monkey Island.
17:21:29 <alise> SCUMM = Script Creation Utility for Maniac Mansion, the engine powering LucasArts adventure games.
17:21:44 <fizzie> Dwarf Fortress' "predecessor" (Slaves to Armok) was also the craziness; I recall mooz drabbling around with it.
17:21:54 <alise> Heh, the doctor then said that SCUMM was an alcoholic delivery service.
17:22:29 <CakeProphet> ...doesn't everyone get fucked up on Grog XD?
17:22:54 <alise> We have them believing it's just something from a video game...
17:23:03 <CakeProphet> I know I do. The battery acid gives it a nice punch.
17:23:28 <alise> Personally I think a Jenkem / Grog XD mixture is the bomb.
17:24:04 <CakeProphet> I've heard it works better when vaproized into a syringe and then injected.
17:24:24 <cpressey> Or is HHGttG boring now too? Hollywood did lamify it.
17:24:34 <alise> cpressey: I'm too young to drink Pan-Galactic Gargle Blasters; it'd kill me instantly.
17:24:48 <alise> H2G2 is still as amazing as ever; it's the movie that sucks.
17:24:58 <alise> CakeProphet: Hmm, I've always injected into the urethra.
17:25:07 <alise> Although sometimes I use the actual penile flesh (technical term).
17:25:11 -!- swilde has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)).
17:25:58 <alise> SOMETIMES I JUST RIP OPEN MY RIBCAGE AND BITE OPEN MY HEART AND POUR ACID INTO IT
17:26:10 <alise> THEN USE A SEWING MACHINE TO FIX IT
17:29:39 <alise> SOMETIMES I JUST URETHRALLY INSERT A PLANE CARRYING A NUCLEAR BOMB AND TURN IT ON AND IT RIPS UP MY BODY AND DETONATES
17:32:24 <cpressey> Well, that is certainly a hard act to follow.
17:33:22 <alise> SOMETIMES I RAPE A BLACK HOLE MADE OUT OF DARK MATTER THEN TELEPORT HALF OF MY BODY TO THE HEART OF THE SUN
17:33:24 -!- coppro has joined.
17:33:39 <alise> Hi coppro! We're talking about inserting things into our urethras and raping black holes.
17:37:48 <CakeProphet> and then watch Inception at the "picture show"
17:39:17 <CakeProphet> well, yes. But I figure by now the feds are watching me on this channel, so I prefer to be discrete. :)
17:41:19 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
17:41:36 <Gregor-W> Hackiki is down and I have no idea why and there's nothing I can do about it because I'm at work wtfwtfwtf
17:45:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
17:47:36 <cpressey> HAH! I just suspended #esoteric!
17:47:47 <alise> pikhq: What do you think the quickest way of copying a file to shared memory is?
17:48:05 <alise> Even ones that only work in special-cases, like say length.
17:50:14 <alise> Flash on 64-bit is so shitty.
17:50:38 <Gregor-W> I suppose mmap doesn't count as "copying"?
17:51:03 <Gregor-W> So in that case, probably mmap+memcpy, but only if memcpy is implemented with much awesometude.
17:51:05 <cpressey> I was wondering what "shared memory" meant. shmget et al?
17:51:18 <Gregor-W> Fair point as well, I figured MAP_SHARED would be sufficient.
17:52:10 <cpressey> "The mmap() function establishes a mapping between a process' address space and a file or shared memory object."
17:52:26 <alise> Erm, by "shared memory" I was trying to say "in-memory filesystem".
17:52:31 <alise> God knows why I said it like that.
17:52:37 <alise> Can you mount a block of memory?
17:52:42 <alise> If so, memory is cool too.
17:52:47 <alise> Like maybe mount some substring of /dev/mem.
17:53:16 <Gregor-W> mmap ... could probably do that?
17:53:25 <alise> Like ... how ... could mmap mount memory?
17:53:37 * alise installs the 64-bit Flash 10 alpha that Adobe retracted.
17:53:55 <cpressey> Confused. I haven't used mmap much.
17:53:59 <alise> Hmm, apparently there's some security issue.
17:54:16 <cpressey> But you and another process could mmap the same file, it looks like, and share memory that way. Maybe?
17:54:28 <alise> cpressey: I didn't mean shared memory dammit. >_>
17:54:36 <cpressey> There are sometimes memory filesystems.
17:54:49 <cpressey> Other times, OSes discourage you from specifying that.
17:54:59 <alise> Err... this is all irrelevant.
17:55:02 <cpressey> "We will decide that!" booms FreeBSD.
17:55:07 <alise> Right now I have two questions:
17:55:17 <alise> (1) Can I mount a substring of RAM as some filesystem?
17:55:27 <alise> (2) If not, what's the quickest way of copying a file to an in-memory filesystem?
17:55:40 <fizzie> It's a bit silly that the "sendfile" syscall only works when the target fd is a socket; one would think it'd be fast for copying a file too.
17:55:55 <Gregor-W> alise: By an "in-memory filesystem", do you mean the illusion of a filesystem presented to a particular process, or a mounted ramfs?
17:55:56 <CakeProphet> ...what is this? some kind of question-procedure? Can we write another procedure that determines whether or not this one halts?
17:56:02 <cpressey> alise: What is your defn of an "in-memory filesystem" if you cannot mount such a thing?
17:56:12 <Gregor-W> alise: That is to say, is it acceptable for the process to have its own special FS layer separate from the OS?
17:56:13 <alise> cpressey: Umm ... tmpfs.
17:56:24 <alise> Gregor-W: Okay, let me explain my full use-case.
17:56:34 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Why would we want to do such a thing?
17:56:45 <alise> I want to write a Linux distro which runs in memory.
17:57:01 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Did I misinterpret the game?
17:57:04 <alise> Therefore the distro will be in a loopback file, like foolinux.ext3.
17:57:14 <alise> How can I mount foolinux.ext3 so that the whole contents are copied into memory?
17:57:17 <Gregor-W> cpressey: DAMN IT ME AND EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS CHANNEL JUST LOST THE GAME AND IT'S YOUR FAULT
17:57:24 <alise> Ideally, I would load foolinux.ext3 into memory, then mount that memory.
17:57:38 <alise> If that's not possible, I would copy foolinux.ext3 into an in-memory filesystem, then mount that in-memory file.
17:57:58 <Gregor-W> e.g. cramfs will always be expanded and mounted into memory. But I think cramfs is R/O, I think there's a R/W equivalent though.
17:58:18 <cpressey> Gregor-W: DAMN IT THESE NEW FANGLED GAMES CHANGE TOO QUICKLY FOR ME TO KEEP UP
17:58:29 <alise> Files in cramfs have to be <16MiB. Maximum file size is <272MiB.
17:58:33 <alise> *Maximum filesystem size
17:58:50 <Gregor-W> alise: I wasn't suggesting cramfs in particular, just that ext2 will give you no joy.
17:58:52 <alise> Really, I'm fine with just cping an .ext3 into a ramfs; I'm just wondering if there isn't something better.
17:59:02 <alise> i.e., can you mount memory?
17:59:10 <Gregor-W> Because nobody has implemented that.
17:59:42 <fizzie> You can turn a block of memory into a block device if you want.
17:59:51 <Gregor-W> You could write your whole FS into a block of memory, compile that as the .data segment of an ELF file, then call that "mount.myfs" and it would mount without even taking a device argument :P
17:59:55 <alise> fizzie: That would be nice. How?
18:00:34 <fizzie> It's in the "memory technology devices" category; there are two that are based on usin "normal" RAM, IIRC.
18:00:43 <pikhq> alise: tmpfs. tmpfs. tmpfs. tmpfs.
18:00:48 <EgoBot> execve failed: OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied
18:01:03 <alise> pikhq: No, because if I can bypass the filesystem overhead that'd be better.
18:01:23 <Gregor-W> CakeProphet: There's something wonky with Codu right now.
18:01:30 <pikhq> alise: There's hardly any overhead.
18:01:31 <EgoBot> execve failed: OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied
18:01:37 <alise> pikhq: But there is some.
18:01:45 <fungot> CakeProphet: ( map procedure ( list item1 item2... itemn)) is a handy thing :) i.e. bending a verb
18:01:49 <alise> fizzie: So, what, is it a command like "makeblock start length /dev/foo"?
18:02:00 <alise> Or a syscall, or what?
18:02:15 <pikhq> alise: Tmpfs exposes the buffers of the VFS as a filesystem.
18:02:20 <CakeProphet> alise: fungot generally has good advice on this kind of thing. i.e. bending a verb
18:02:21 <fungot> CakeProphet: you can perform dispatch however you like so that the condition handler is a function that takes a list of fingerprints at the end
18:02:53 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
18:03:31 <fizzie> alise: There are two different kernel drivers; I don't recall how either one works. Module parameters, perhaps. And the block devices thusly created won't be usable as normal RAM, so it's not very convenient.
18:03:47 <alise> fizzie: So could I do this:
18:03:57 <alise> memcpy it to get it in memory
18:04:00 <alise> turn that memory into a block device
18:04:02 <alise> mount the block device?
18:04:10 <pikhq> alise: This is *effectively* tmpfs.
18:04:21 <pikhq> Sorry, not quite. XD
18:04:31 <fizzie> No, you'd dd the fsys image into the block device you set up earlier.
18:04:40 <pikhq> mmap a file. memcpy it to get it in memory. *Use that as the file*.
18:04:43 <alise> That'd be easy. dd is fast.
18:04:57 <alise> pikhq: Wouldn't it be better to do fizzie's suggestion?
18:05:08 <alise> Create block device. dd the filesystem file to that block device. Mount the block device.
18:05:18 <pikhq> alise: I think you're failing to get something.
18:05:23 <Gregor-W> Fine, whatever. If you support COMMUNISM.
18:05:25 <pikhq> Tmpfs is the simplest filesystem.
18:05:29 <alise> I know, I know, pikhq.
18:05:35 <pikhq> *It doesn't require a block device.*
18:05:39 <alise> But Puppy boots slowly. So I'm going to be obsessive about this.
18:05:54 <pikhq> This is the lowest overhead you can get in unpatched Linux for a filesystem.
18:05:55 <alise> Speed is my only concern. I don't want to wait more than a few seconds to load, say, 100 MiB into RAM and mount it.
18:05:56 <fizzie> I might go with the "dump filesystem image's contents into tmpfs or something" thing too; regular filesystems aren't very memory-optimized, I guess.
18:06:05 <alise> Let's say 7 seconds for 100 MiB. *Absolute maximum.*
18:06:19 <pikhq> You're limited by disk speed there.
18:06:21 <alise> fizzie: Oh, I was just going to dump the image itself, then mount that.
18:06:39 <pikhq> USB sticks are slow man.
18:06:48 <alise> Puppy boots slowly.
18:08:24 <CakeProphet> Your mom boots slowly too, but isn't it worth it?
18:09:01 <fizzie> Anyway, you *can* use a memory-based block device if you want. One of the drivers is called "phram" (the newer); another is slram.
18:09:31 <alise> fizzie: Any guesses as the speed vs tmpfs?
18:09:33 <fizzie> There's all kinds of "use graphics card VRAM as a swap device" trickery people do with phram.
18:10:26 <fizzie> No idea. Best to use some XIP-capable file system, at least.
18:11:41 <alise> Does Linux support that?
18:12:17 <alise> Seems only cramfs and some new experimental thing.
18:12:24 <fizzie> No idea; unpatched it might not.
18:12:28 <alise> pikhq: Does Puppy use XIP? I guess not.
18:12:54 <alise> The ability to run programs directly from the filesystem, rather than copying them to RAM first.
18:12:58 <alise> Yes, I just looked that up.
18:13:16 <alise> If it doesn't, then Puppy has two copies of every single program it runs in RAM.
18:13:43 <pikhq> Ah. I don't know. I'd hope it does...
18:13:57 <pikhq> Wait. tmpfs, right?
18:14:04 <alise> Well, considering Linux seems to have two filesystems that support it, the near-useless cramfs and some experimental one...
18:14:09 <alise> Since it uses squashfs.
18:14:25 <pikhq> No, wait, it's squashfs. Never mind.
18:14:35 <alise> So, what, would tmpfs do XIP?
18:14:42 <pikhq> alise: With tmpfs XIP "just works" without any code to support it.
18:15:01 <pikhq> "Hmm. Load program into RAM... Oh wait it's *already there*... Mmmkay."
18:15:05 <fizzie> One would hope it works with tmpfs, since it'd be pretty silly if not.
18:15:06 * cpressey feels a bad interaction lurking with XIP
18:15:26 <cpressey> I hope it locks the executable
18:15:27 <pikhq> All because it exists almost entirely in the virtual filesystem's buffers.
18:15:41 <cpressey> That's the only thing that would make sense
18:16:05 <pikhq> cpressey: Read-only sections of the executable only...
18:16:06 <CakeProphet> since when do software components make sense?
18:16:30 <pikhq> Also, it changes hardly anything anyways.
18:16:36 <fizzie> cpressey: It could do copy-on-write on those data pages or some-such. Besides, don't you want to do live-patching of binaries?
18:16:40 <pikhq> Executables are already just straight-up mmap'd.
18:16:44 <alise> Okay, so, new question.
18:16:48 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Granted. I shall wear the Bucket of Shame on my head for 2 minutes, as a reminder of my folly.
18:16:49 <alise> Can I have a .tmpfs file? :-)
18:16:57 <pikhq> Yes, you just mmap the suckers into RAM.
18:17:05 <pikhq> alise: It's called an "initramfs".
18:17:25 <alise> pikhq: Hmm... of course.
18:17:26 <cpressey> fizzie: If it can be finagled so that it doesn't crash, I would love that, of course.
18:17:34 <alise> pikhq: Having everything in an initramfs is considered unusual, isn't it?
18:17:44 <pikhq> alise: Only slightly.
18:18:02 <CakeProphet> we should create an operating system in which programs are run from hard drive, and persistent data is stored in memory until shutdown when it is written to disk.
18:18:13 <alise> pikhq: I don't like "only slightly".
18:18:22 <alise> CakeProphet: Or an OS where RAM is just disk cache. Oh wait, that's aliseOS.
18:18:24 <pikhq> alise: It's commonly done for *floppy disk* distros.
18:18:33 <alise> Protip: Come up with an OS idea. I've already thought of it.
18:18:44 <alise> pikhq: Oh, and I'll compile the initramfs into the kernel too.
18:18:48 <alise> Because I'm BADASS.
18:18:59 <alise> pikhq: Can you figure an initramfs to run another filename apart from /init?
18:19:03 <alise> Cluttering up / like that is :(.
18:19:18 <pikhq> alise: init=/some/other/filename
18:19:39 <alise> So how fast does an initramfs load?
18:19:50 <pikhq> Depends on the bootloader.
18:20:03 <alise> Okay; which bootloader will load it the fastest?
18:20:33 <pikhq> Probably one of the more full-featured ones, like GRUB...
18:20:47 <pikhq> As the others are a bit more likely to go through BIOS hard drive commands.
18:20:53 <alise> Will it load faster or slower with compression? I guess faster; CPU is fast, disk is slow.
18:20:57 <alise> Especially for USB etc.
18:21:02 <cheater99> alise: do you / did you watch stargate sg-1?
18:21:09 <alise> pikhq: I dunno, SYSLINUX is pretty mature.
18:21:24 <pikhq> alise: LZO is very fast. Definitely faster than your disk.
18:21:32 <alise> pikhq: Ah yes, LZO.
18:21:37 <alise> pikhq: What about LZMA?
18:21:43 <pikhq> It's about a third the speed of *memcpy*.
18:21:46 <alise> cheater99: I watch it now and again.
18:21:49 <pikhq> LZMA is hella-slow to decompress.
18:21:56 <alise> pikhq: No LZMA then.
18:22:00 <alise> What about gzip vs LZO>
18:22:01 <cheater99> who's your favourite character alise?
18:22:06 <pikhq> Hella-slow to *compress*.
18:22:10 <pikhq> Not much slower than gzip.
18:22:17 <pikhq> alise: LZO's a few times faster.
18:22:43 <alise> So would I save more by using LZMA and saving space but with more cPU time, or LZO and have more to read but quicker decompression?
18:22:57 <alise> Furthermore, how's LZO's compression rates vs gzip/LZMA?
18:23:25 <pikhq> LZO's a bit worse than gzip, but not exceptionally.
18:23:32 <alise> So would I save more by using LZMA and saving space but with more cPU time, or LZO and have more to read but quicker decompression?
18:23:36 <pikhq> LZMA is *much* better at compression than gzip.
18:23:37 <alise> I know, impossible question.
18:23:51 <pikhq> alise: That's a function of how quick your CPU is.
18:24:30 * pikhq shall do some testing on how fast LZO is...
18:24:36 <alise> pikhq: Two runs of your algorithm, then: (cpu=cheap core2, disk=USB stick); (cpu=cheap core2, disk=laptop hard drive)
18:24:37 <pikhq> Giant tarball of SNES source, away!
18:25:14 <CakeProphet> pikhq: what? tests? We're not computer scientists here! We're computer speculators!
18:26:49 <alise> aka computer mathematicians *shot*
18:28:16 <CakeProphet> are there compression algorithms that operate sequentially?
18:28:28 <pikhq> Mmm, compressing several gigabytes as a test...
18:28:46 <CakeProphet> can you decompress a sequential stream without having to complete the whole algorithm?
18:29:03 <alise> CakeProphet: you mean you can decompress starting from say half way?
18:29:14 <alise> or do you mean in a stream?
18:29:18 <alise> so it's not load, decompress
18:29:34 <alise> replace x repeated n times with x^n
18:29:48 <alise> decompression: read x^n, output x n times, repeat untl EOF
18:29:52 <CakeProphet> is you make use of two cores that way. Having one decompress the stream and the other do whatever needs to be done with the other.
18:30:09 <CakeProphet> s/with the other/ with the decompressed stream
18:30:17 <pikhq> Y'know what? Actually, I'm going to tar this up first. I'm pretty sure a single sequential file read is faster than reading oodles of files.
18:30:56 <alise> pikhq: For fairness, do it in a tmpfs.
18:31:16 <pikhq> I'm compressing like 12G.
18:31:39 <alise> What, you don't have that much RAM?
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18:34:24 <alise> ais523: Would you be surprised to hear that my Linux distro has taken yet another turn?
18:35:48 <alise> ais523: Now it's going to be loaded into RAM, like Puppy Linux / Tiny Core Linux.
18:37:02 <alise> ais523: For speed and also ... I dunno, simplicity in a way.
18:37:14 <pikhq> It'll be simple enough, anyways.
18:37:15 <alise> It just seems like a good kind of design decision if your distro is small enough.
18:37:21 <alise> Even if you have minimal RAM it should be fine.
18:37:31 <alise> Puppy works just fine with 128 MiB.
18:38:29 <pikhq> And Puppy's actually pretty darned large, considering.
18:38:42 <alise> Well, I doubt Lucid Puppy would work with 128 MiB.
18:38:47 <alise> But older versions that were 80 MiB.
18:40:28 <alise> pikhq: So should I compress the kernel-with-initramfs, or have an uncompressed kernel with a compressed initramfs?
18:40:35 <alise> Whichever is faster, basically. The difference should be minimal. I think.
18:40:40 <pikhq> alise: Whole thing.
18:41:51 <pikhq> Mmkay. Speed test of 16.5GB tarball, AWAY!
18:42:18 <pikhq> It took 12 minutes to *tar*...
18:42:22 <alise> I have two ingrown toenails. :(
18:43:41 <pikhq> lzop appears to be running faster than my disk.
18:43:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:43:57 <pikhq> For *compression*.
18:44:00 <alise> Are you sure it's not just faster than the byte-by-byte car?
18:44:35 <pikhq> alise: It's spending time in the kernel waiting on the disk.
18:44:53 <pikhq> It's jumping between 40% and 70% CPU usage.
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18:46:22 <alise> pikhq: So, LZO'd kernel is probably the best route?
18:46:33 <alise> Booted by a bootloader that doesn't use the BIOS.
18:46:34 <pikhq> I think I'm going to have to compare with cp.
18:47:01 <pikhq> alise: The reason for that last bit is simple: the BIOS's disk reading routines let you read 512b at a time.
18:47:16 <pikhq> And they're naive.
18:47:24 <alise> cheater99: What did you do?
18:47:40 <alise> I'm sort of allergic to going to the doctor's, so I'm doing what every insane person does: self-diagnosing a treatment with Wikipedia.
18:47:43 <pikhq> It'll read a full disk block, and then hand you 512b of it. And then read the same disk block when you ask for the next 512b.
18:48:00 <alise> Well hey, I learned that it's the skin that's the issue, not the nail!
18:48:08 <alise> cheater99: Basically they're poking into the side.
18:48:26 <alise> It's not red as in the kind of red it would be if infected, although it gets red if you bash it of course.
18:48:31 <alise> Mine isn't rotting.
18:48:38 <alise> I've had them for ages, and they're not painful almost always.
18:48:45 <alise> So I'm not too worried; I doubt they're infected.
18:48:57 <alise> And if they haven't got infected by this point I doubt they ever will.
18:49:02 <alise> cheater99: Good observation.
18:49:05 <cheater99> they get dirty sweaty and infected at the first chance
18:49:17 <alise> But if it's been this long?
18:49:28 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:49:34 <cheater99> i'd had it for years before it got so bad i couldn't get on
18:49:36 <pikhq> Mmm. It would appear that Linux's readahead is *awesome*.
18:49:43 <alise> cheater99: Yeah, uh, mine is just ever so slightly poking in.
18:49:48 <cheater99> if you do it you'll have to stay at home for at least a couple weeks, maybe a month
18:49:55 <alise> Seriously. It looks normal.
18:50:05 <alise> I might just soak them in water.
18:50:18 <alise> That's not what WP says. :P
18:50:22 <alise> aka Lord over Truth
18:50:26 <cheater99> wikipedia never had ingrown toenails
18:50:32 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:50:42 <alise> OTOH, I trust something with references more than your personal anecdote.
18:51:06 <pikhq> alise: Okay, so compression took 8 minutes, ran at 33 MB/s, and the resulting output was 12G.
18:51:10 <alise> Let's put it this way: These things have been there for a year. They haven't changed at all.
18:51:28 <alise> They are only very slightly pinkish due to the, you know, actual poking, and don't hurt when walking.
18:51:28 <pikhq> 12341538026 bytes vs. 17685739520 bytes.
18:51:28 <cheater99> i have had them for longer than that before they got bad
18:51:38 <alise> My feet have been terribly sweaty and dirty at a few points in that time
18:51:42 <pikhq> Would you like decompression test naow?
18:51:52 <alise> pikhq: Shur, compression doesn't matter so much to me :P
18:51:56 <alise> pikhq: What was the input size?
18:52:07 <cheater99> but at some point the place in the skin gets wounded
18:52:14 <cheater99> and then, the toenail keeps the wound open
18:52:25 <cheater99> and it gets infected and full of pus
18:52:35 <alise> The skin has been wounded.
18:52:37 <pikhq> Okay, decompressing to /dev/null
18:52:47 <alise> Yeah, I know, I'm rationalising.
18:53:01 <alise> Mind, I do have an excellent immune system.
18:53:14 <alise> I had a serious infection recently and only felt slightly icky, and that was because of the strong antibiotics.
18:53:19 <alise> (It was not due to the toenails.)
18:53:45 <cheater99> i get all infections out without drugs
18:54:05 <alise> Well, I wouldn't have got this one out.
18:54:09 <cheater99> i hadn't taken antibiotics in recent times
18:54:18 <alise> I was on an antibiotic they give to people who have serious infections fucking up major internal organs.
18:54:41 <alise> Amusingly, what caused it was falling off a swing I was sitting on. It was not moving (there isn't much place to sit outside in the unit).
18:55:03 <pikhq> alise: 2:45, 71.3MB/s.
18:55:04 <cheater99> possible side effects included blindness and death
18:55:12 <alise> It /tilted/, causing me to fall down, but my feet stayed on. The force caused the string to move, and my feet fell off the swing.
18:55:18 <alise> Gravity noticed, and caused my legs to slam down.
18:55:21 <alise> My knee hit my face.
18:55:25 <alise> Blood. Blood everywhere.
18:55:35 <alise> My mouth is now composed of blood.
18:55:41 <alise> Cut forwards one day.
18:55:42 <coppro> when bleeding, make sure to feint
18:55:48 <alise> The outside of my mouth is swollen.
18:55:52 <pikhq> alise: Now, then. gzip?
18:55:54 <alise> Really swollen. I look like half a cat.
18:56:00 <alise> It leaks pus often.
18:56:02 <alise> Cut forwards one day.
18:56:04 <alise> On serious antibiotics.
18:56:05 <pikhq> Or are you going to be happy with disk-bound compression?
18:56:08 <alise> Cut forwards one week.
18:56:22 <alise> cheater99: Well, it was infected from the start.
18:56:27 <alise> What do you mean one day?
18:56:29 <pikhq> (BTW, that's 570 megabits/sec.)
18:56:36 <cheater99> you said it got swollen in pussy in one day
18:56:50 <alise> Yeah; the next day it was swollen, and leaked pus (very slowly).
18:57:04 <alise> It was pretty awful.
18:57:05 <cheater99> did you break your jaw or something?
18:57:14 <alise> It was just a really bad bash.
18:57:21 <cheater99> jesus, not sure how that could even happen
18:57:37 <alise> cheater99: Gravity is a bitch. I am bony, thus my knee is bony.
18:57:44 <alise> Bone is hard. My mouthy area is not hard. Slam.
18:57:53 <alise> Blood everywhere, huge possibility of infection.
18:58:05 <alise> At some point a little crowd of bacteria swims in and finds a nice, loving home.
18:58:16 <cheater99> didn't you clean it straight away?
18:58:55 <alise> I was at the unit, so it went like this:
18:59:21 <alise> Ran across the garden screaming, someone notices (obviously), "OW OW OW" says I, run inside. Look at self. "Oh jesus". Go upstairs.
18:59:35 <alise> Gets dabbed and cleaned by the doctor.
18:59:54 <alise> Eh, not really. I was in far too much pain to feel any more.
19:00:15 <alise> No. I got paracetamol. :P
19:00:29 <alise> It got infected before I got inside, I wager.
19:01:00 <cheater99> since british playgrounds have this uh
19:01:27 <alise> Oh yeah, I never actually hit the ground with it I don't think.
19:01:32 <alise> Oh, the cords were metal here.
19:01:45 <alise> I imagine it was something floating around in the air.
19:01:56 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
19:02:02 <alise> Yeah, Poland is a shithole. We get it. :P
19:02:17 <cheater99> people get drunk on the playgrounds since that's the only place outside to 'sit around' other than parks
19:02:28 <cheater99> but i'm only leading up to my story
19:02:51 <cheater99> when i was like 6, i was visiting an aunt with my mother and have went to the playground (they let me go on my own)
19:03:09 <cheater99> i took a slide down the slid (bottom up)
19:03:18 <alise> A slide down the slid.
19:03:19 <pikhq> cheater99: Clearly Poland should raze the country and only let non-drunks back in. :P
19:03:21 <alise> Don't you mean you slid down the slide?
19:03:29 <pikhq> It'll be just like the Third Reich!
19:03:38 <cheater99> and the slide was like, out of sheet metal pieces
19:03:40 <alise> I'm pretty sure that, on average, every Pole is always drunk.
19:03:48 <alise> cheater99: Hardcore. :P
19:04:17 <cheater99> and cut the edges of the sheet metal where they come together
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19:04:43 <cheater99> i had like six scars on my legs and stomach
19:05:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
19:05:39 <cheater99> i was tough enough to find my aunt though in all this (and i've been there like for the first time i think)
19:05:49 <cheater99> so they sewed me up and it was all fine
19:06:06 <cheater99> only one of the scars is left by now and it goes from the knee to the hip :O
19:06:28 <cheater99> and yeah, your statistic is probably right
19:06:45 <alise> pikhq: So, where do you think I should start in developing my distro?
19:07:22 <cheater99> alise: compile Vim into the kernel
19:08:15 <pikhq> alise: Get a freaking build environment.
19:08:24 -!- ais523_ has joined.
19:08:30 <alise> Well, I guess I need a 32-bit thing. But eh.
19:08:32 <pikhq> What, not using static uclibc or some such?
19:08:52 <alise> pikhq: Not static. I'm keeping it complex for this.
19:08:55 <alise> Because complex is easy with Linux.
19:09:28 <pikhq> alise: So, what. Glibc?
19:09:53 <alise> Well, maybe not glibc.
19:10:07 <pikhq> Eglibc? Uclibc? Newlib?
19:10:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:10:31 <pikhq> I think that's all the dynamic libcs for Linux.
19:10:37 <alise> I wonder how much you can strip down eglibc.
19:10:44 <alise> pikhq: You forgot PDClib :P
19:11:04 <alise> Which is only known to people on osdev.org.
19:11:11 <alise> And I keep accidentally palming the trackpad.
19:11:41 * alise decides to support 32-bit with PAE.
19:11:59 <pikhq> So, i686 then. Mmm...
19:12:11 <alise> Because dammit, you should be able to use more than 2 GiB of RAM; but dammit, I can't be arsed to deal with the incompatibility and space waste that comes from allowing every process to use more than 2 GiB.
19:12:20 <alise> pikhq: Well, it won't /require/ PAE.
19:13:08 <pikhq> alise: So... i386 with an i686 PAE kernel
19:13:18 <alise> PAE support, not requirement.
19:13:25 <alise> Window manager will probably be JWM or a modified fvwm95.
19:13:44 <alise> Because try as I might, I can't get used to tiling managers.
19:13:50 <alise> And I like my taskbar.
19:14:06 <pikhq> The suckless guys should do a widgetful WM.
19:14:17 <alise> But that would suck more, I must admit.
19:14:24 <alise> pikhq: wmi/wmii are quite widgety
19:15:05 <pikhq> Gzip is one slow compression algorithm. :P
19:15:18 <alise> Hmm. Any reason to support anything other than Xvesa?
19:15:29 <alise> Xfbdev will never be faster and come on, your system supports VESA, shut up.
19:15:38 <alise> And servers with specific drivers are too large to include; they can be packages.
19:15:40 <pikhq> If your graphics card doesn't support VESA you're a liar.
19:15:50 <alise> Ha, synchronicity.
19:16:13 <cpressey> All Cretan graphics cards lack VESA support.
19:17:18 <cpressey> I'm writing an overview of my vision for my CE.
19:17:42 <cpressey> Will pass it along here when I've done an acceptable draft, but for now -- lunch.
19:17:50 <alise> Stop saying CE. I think Windows CE.
19:17:58 <alise> You won't like me when I think of Windows CE.
19:18:09 <alise> pikhq: Remember when you used to like autohell?
19:18:11 <alise> Those were the days!
19:18:26 <cpressey> The fact that the term CE annoys alise: all the better.
19:18:33 <alise> Hmm. JWM has fribidi support. Why does a window manager need RTL support? Unless all your window titles are Arabic.
19:18:53 <pikhq> alise: I do like it better than the alternative things.
19:19:16 <pikhq> Not so much because it's grand, because HOW DOES EVERYTHING BUT A SIMPLE MAKEFILE SUCK MORE?!? HOWWWW
19:20:16 <pikhq> BTW, most people suck at even making Makefiles.
19:20:17 <alise> pikhq: I recall you yelling at me for writing a 3-line Makefile which didn't use $(CFLAGS) or something and telling me to use autotools instead.
19:20:25 <alise> I didn't use CFLAGS because the makefile was almost literally:
19:20:34 <alise> $(CC) -O2 -Wall foo.c -o foo
19:20:34 <pikhq> alise: Once upon a time.
19:20:47 <pikhq> BTW, I now know a better reason to yell at you.
19:20:49 <alise> pikhq: On a dark and stormy night.
19:21:03 <pikhq> That could be simpler.
19:21:07 <alise> Xinerama? Jesus christ, who gives a shit about xinerama!
19:21:12 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, I know, foo: foo.c.
19:21:19 <alise> But that generates output with a ton of spaces because of empty variables.
19:21:34 <alise> --with-x use the X Window System
19:21:37 <alise> Yes, JWM, I would like that.
19:21:38 <pikhq> alise: Not even "foo: foo.c".
19:21:58 <alise> pikhq: Convince me to enable fribidi support in JWM.
19:22:05 <alise> You're the defender of all things Unicodey, after all.
19:22:10 <pikhq> alise: You *like* good text rendering.
19:22:22 <alise> pikhq: I do... but my distro will be English-only, anyway.
19:22:37 <alise> So it'll affect... Web page titles with Arabic in them. In the window title.
19:22:45 <pikhq> In which case set your freaking locale to C and purge all of Unicode anyways.
19:22:45 <alise> And I'll have to include a whole library and also a bigger WM for it.
19:22:56 <alise> pikhq: Well, no, I want accents and stuff to /work/.
19:23:01 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
19:23:03 <alise> But things like Arabic rendering properly /in window titles/?
19:23:07 <alise> I really find it hard to care, you know?
19:23:29 <pikhq> alise: Then your locale shall be en.UTF8
19:23:39 <pikhq> In which case *get it all working properly or else*.
19:23:55 <alise> Y'know what? No. :P
19:24:00 * pikhq shall find an example
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19:24:21 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Arabicrender.png The top is what happens if you don't do it right.
19:24:21 <alise> Sure. Find an example of not supporting RTL text in a window manager having a noticeable effect on someone who's decided to use an English-only OS anyway.
19:24:31 <pikhq> The middle is the same, but right-to-left.
19:24:36 <pikhq> The bottom is the proper text.
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19:24:54 <alise> pikhq: The most I could achieve is the middle.
19:25:00 <alise> FriBiDi doesn't actually render anything.
19:25:28 <pikhq> alise: Freetype should do the actual complex text layout correctly.
19:25:37 <alise> pikhq: I don't believe JWM uses Freetype.
19:25:42 <alise> It has a direct Xft configuration option.
19:25:44 <pikhq> Does it support xft fonts?
19:25:47 <alise> Seeming to imply it goes lower than that.
19:26:05 <pikhq> I HATE X11S HANDLING OF TEXT SO MUCH
19:26:07 <alise> Therefore I'm fucking over Arabic people anyway.
19:26:23 <alise> Therefore I think between unreadable and more space usage and unreadable and less space usage I will pick the latter. No FriBidi for you!
19:26:33 <pikhq> Xft goes through freetype...
19:27:01 <alise> How big is FriBidi?
19:27:15 <pikhq> But... Then again.
19:27:21 <pikhq> Freetype actually doesn't do the complex text layout.
19:27:48 <alise> Therefore no FriBidi.
19:27:59 <pikhq> That's the job of ICU, Pango, Harfbuzz, or Graphite...
19:28:06 <pikhq> Why are there 4 libraries for it. D:
19:28:16 <alise> Do I need to support the Shape extension? All it gets me is fucking xeyes.
19:28:48 <pikhq> XRender is *good*. You *like* Xrender.
19:28:57 <pikhq> Unless you're, y'know, omitting all antialiasing.
19:28:58 <alise> Does the WM need it?
19:29:27 <pikhq> Okay, probably not.
19:29:38 <pikhq> Unless you want alpha blending.
19:29:46 <alise> New question: Any apps that have xpm icons and not png icons? Answer: No.
19:29:49 <alise> xpm disabled. JPEG and PNG enabled.
19:29:58 <alise> (JWM also does a rudimentary wallpaper+desktop.)
19:30:07 <pikhq> alise: Alternately, only XPM. :P
19:30:20 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/yak/jwm-2.0.1$ CFLAGS="-Os" ./configure --disable-{xinerama,xrender,shape} --enable-{png,jpeg} --prefix=$HOME/yak/sandbox
19:33:03 <alise> OK, jwm with those options, dynamically linked against glibc with -Os, is 176 KiB.
19:33:12 <alise> Not bad for the whole desktop, wallpaper and window manager.
19:33:59 <pikhq> Hmm. I should try building the Arena web browser...
19:34:21 <pikhq> I wonder how large it is.
19:34:31 <pikhq> Granted, it'd not be *much* use. But still.
19:34:35 <alise> Clearly you should build Amaya. Note: Amaya is awful.
19:36:53 <alise> Ugh... JWM's configuration is XML.
19:37:24 <alise> pikhq: Rate this idea: Patch lwm (http://www.jfc.org.uk/software/lwm.html) to support simple buttons on windows, make it look a bit nicer and use Xft, and then write a simple panel program.
19:37:33 <cpressey> Hey, *I* suck at even making Makefiles.
19:37:46 <cpressey> ... so is it really gonna be called Yak Linux?
19:37:51 <pikhq> alise: Could be nice.
19:38:03 <pikhq> cpressey: Make is easy. The trick is to not ever complicate things.
19:38:13 <pikhq> And no, you are not allowed to do recursive make.
19:38:15 <alise> Yak Linux: comes pre-shaven.
19:38:37 <pikhq> Did I mention "fuck no"?
19:39:03 <pikhq> alise: Recursive make is EVIL INCARNATE
19:39:05 <cpressey> pikhq: How do I define a general rule in a way that both BSD make and GNU make understand? I've never figured that out. I just write them longhand.
19:39:17 <cpressey> pikhq: Agreed on recursive make.
19:39:25 <alise> pikhq: I used recursive make once for a coreutils.
19:39:27 <pikhq> cpressey: .foo.bar:
19:39:40 <alise> It made sense there, since you only ever used the top level for building the whole thing.
19:40:01 <alise> pikhq: OK, let's put it this way: Recently, the Plan 9 team wrote a recursive Makefile. Unashamedly. But they did it properly.
19:40:02 <pikhq> The thing is, recursive make breaks all dependency information.
19:40:31 <cpressey> I'd prefer a shell script called make.sh, over recursive make, anyday.
19:40:35 <pikhq> The only way to legitimately do it is if you have *no* cross-subdir dependencies.
19:40:45 <pikhq> In which case you might as well make a simple shell script.
19:40:47 <alise> pikhq: Such as when writing a coreutils.
19:40:57 <alise> No, because make can avoid rebuilding things.
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19:41:17 <pikhq> The simple shell script calls multiple make instances.
19:41:34 <pikhq> alise: Oh, also, recursive make makes avoiding rebuilding things much more difficult.
19:41:56 <pikhq> Because you have to call several instances of make just to figure out "Oh, nothing to do".
19:42:22 <alise> pikhq: Quick! Tell me a terminal that doesn't use a crazily wacked out interface different from everything else like xterm does!
19:42:22 <cpressey> Could be worse. Coulda done recursive Ant.
19:42:33 <pikhq> For more information, see "Recursive Make Considered Harmful".
19:42:49 <pikhq> alise: A *simple* terminal?
19:42:57 <pikhq> Does not exist; here, have an editor.
19:42:59 <ais523> alise: gnome-terminal is pretty sane, but rather complex
19:43:02 <alise> pikhq: Not necessarily.
19:43:09 <pikhq> st's probably the closest.
19:43:10 <ais523> also, Linux console terminal, if you don't care about a GUI
19:43:11 <alise> Just something that isn't crazy like xterm and urxvt.
19:43:19 <alise> You know, proper vt100 emulation, but saner keybindings.
19:44:00 <alise> cpressey: Sorry. I am not emulating vt100.
19:44:25 <alise> Maybe YakEd. Maybe YakWM.
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19:47:01 <pikhq> alise: How's about writing something that uses VTE?
19:47:13 <alise> Isn't that a library that emulates a vt100 for you?
19:47:15 <alise> Does it provide a widget?
19:47:26 <pikhq> Ohwait. It's GNOME.
19:47:39 <alise> Almost got excited.
19:48:19 <pikhq> Though it *only* appears to depend on GTK...
19:48:32 <cpressey> What license is screen? Maybe it could be ripped outta there...
19:48:33 <alise> pikhq: Then I can write it with Vala or Genie.
19:48:40 <alise> cpressey: GPL, probably.
19:48:49 <pikhq> cpressey: GPL, probably.
19:48:54 <alise> pikhq: Ideally I'd like a Vala or Genie that bound to, say, FLTK.
19:49:05 <cpressey> Or maybe screen could be "welded" to a GUI window.
19:49:20 <alise> screen itself outputs VT100 codes.
19:49:24 <pikhq> Maybe you could just look at st?
19:49:31 <cpressey> alise: Does it? I thought it used curses.
19:49:37 <alise> cpressey: Well, okay.
19:49:47 <alise> pikhq: st is a bit not what I want though.
19:49:51 <pikhq> It does use curses.
19:49:52 <cpressey> It certainly requires libncurses
19:49:56 <alise> I want a conventional terminal wrapped in a wrapper that doesn't suck.
19:50:04 <pikhq> alise: You could start with it and work from there.
19:50:15 <cpressey> Modify curses to do some kind of monospace GUI character placement, and whammo.
19:50:16 <alise> pikhq: If I'm talking to GTK, I'm not using C.
19:50:19 <pikhq> One of the nice things about Suckless code is that it is all pretty understandable.
19:50:30 <alise> I just realised. screen on a VT100 terminal is a self-interpreter. :-)
19:50:36 <alise> pikhq: Because that would involve GObject.
19:50:39 <pikhq> alise: And yes, if you're talking to GTK there's no fucking way you're using C.
19:50:48 <alise> GObject can be fine when wrapped.
19:50:54 <alise> GObject/C is just ...
19:50:56 <alise> It's just GObject/C.
19:51:13 <pikhq> GObject feels more like a language implementation than a user API.
19:53:02 <alise> pikhq: Wait, I forgot. FLTK is C++.
19:53:27 <alise> How can anyone screw up such a breath of fresh air in that way?
19:54:09 <pikhq> alise: Xlib, anyone?
19:54:57 <alise> pikhq: What about it?
19:55:15 <pikhq> Granted, it's also agony to use, but that's beside the point.
19:55:23 <alise> pikhq: BTW, smallX includes its own tiny Xlib. So if I could find the sources and if we could get them to build, we could really shrink X11 stuff.
19:55:39 <coppro> they're working on a replacement for Xlib
19:55:47 <alise> coppro: you mean XCB?
19:55:53 <pikhq> alise: BTW, gzip compression went at 13.6MB/s, took 20 minutes.
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19:55:54 <alise> and it's more bloated
19:55:57 <alise> which is the whole problem
19:56:10 <alise> xcb did one thing right: asynchronicity
19:56:16 <alise> then they decided XLIB WASN'T LOW-LEVEL ENOUGH
19:59:38 <pikhq> alise: Decompression went at 50.4MB/s, and took 3:19.
19:59:48 <pikhq> The resulting file was 9.8GB.
19:59:58 <alise> So ... LZO made it bigger?
20:00:10 <pikhq> Yes, LZO aims for *speed*.
20:00:26 <pikhq> alise: Oh, wait. Sorry, your confusion is my fault.
20:00:33 <pikhq> alise: The source file was 16GB.
20:00:46 <pikhq> Gzip compressed it was 9.8GB, LZO compressed it was 12GB.
20:00:59 <alise> "Decompression [...] The resulting file was 9.8GB."
20:01:02 <alise> You can see how I was confused,
20:04:18 <cpressey> alise: You know, it is entirely possible we're distantly related. My mom's family is from Britain.
20:04:40 -!- augur has joined.
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20:05:13 <alise> cpressey: How are we ever going to get married so I can enter the US now?!
20:05:42 <cpressey> alise: We'll claim we're different species! They'll love that.
20:05:44 <alise> I live in a world where bigamy is legal but incestuous marriage is not.
20:07:09 <pikhq> alise: Federal government won't recognise it.
20:09:04 <pikhq> Actually, it's the "gay" bit.
20:19:02 <alise> Pfft, gay marriage is the only accepted form of marriage in my world.
20:19:11 <alise> Everyone is polyamorously gay with everyone but their own family.
20:22:51 <alise> pikhq: I can't figure out what to do next w/ Yak :(
20:24:46 <alise> Because incest is illegal!
20:24:59 <cheater99> if incest is wrong, then i don't want to be right!!!
20:25:26 <alise> As is heterosexuality.
20:28:23 <alise> pikhq: Meet the new kernel, same as the old kernel.
20:28:27 <pikhq> Sorry, new kernel marked stable in Gentoo.
20:28:42 <pikhq> cheater99: LZMA support for squashfs!
20:29:02 <alise> pikhq: Omigod, FLTK actually has a semi-decent theme.
20:29:18 <pikhq> And a 300% increase in speed on threaded page faults on x86_64...
20:30:41 <pikhq> It's a decent compressed filesystem is all.
20:31:26 <cheater99> "a fish has saved my life once" "how?" "i ate it"
20:32:28 <alise> cheater99: what channel?
20:33:11 <cheater99> only turn it on if you know german
20:34:48 <alise> I thought you were in the UK.
20:35:07 <alise> Or can you receive it all the way here?
20:37:30 <cheater99> i might return to the uk soon though
20:37:51 <cheater99> i could abduct you and get you drunk at a pub or something
20:37:59 <alise> Oh, I thought you were just planning to go to Germany.
20:38:05 <alise> Cambridge; like Oxford for retards.
20:38:15 <cheater99> i'm not trying to get into cambridge
20:38:29 <cheater99> i just have a buddy there who works at the uni, and i might get a job in cambridge too
20:39:32 <cheater99> if i do, i'll rent a room from him and will enjoy the place for some time
20:40:53 <cheater99> as far as universities i have tried to get into oxford, not cambridge :D
20:42:32 <alise> cambridge: oxford for murderers
20:42:45 <alise> actually i dunno if the murderers or non-murderers split
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20:53:57 <cheater99> there was uproar in oxford after the students killed a peasant
20:54:16 <cheater99> some to the polytechnique, some to cambridge, some elsewhere
20:54:30 <alise> no, cambridge was founded by oxfordians leaving oxford because of that
20:54:33 <cheater99> after some time they came back from cambridge to oxford, some stayed because they liked it there
20:55:07 <cheater99> when i said they went to cambridge, i meant they went to the plot of land at the river cam that some of the monks/lords had bought.
20:55:33 <cheater99> so they sat it out and then they went back to their luxurious residences
20:55:37 <alise> anyway not all of them ran away did they
20:56:14 <alise> that isn't the story i hear from my friend ;) ofc there's only, what, total bias there
20:56:21 <cheater99> it was a typical case of the simple man being unhappy with the privileges of higher spheres
20:57:00 <alise> why did they kill the peasant anyway
20:57:20 <cheater99> that was long ago and i wasn't paying attention.
20:57:34 <alise> cheater99 was born ten thousand years ago
20:59:31 <cheater99> if you want good shoes, go to oxford though
21:00:49 <cheater99> a student is not allowed to own dogs, hawks, bears, or any other hunting animals
21:01:10 <cheater99> but if you do it can be fed free at the meadows
21:01:16 <pikhq> Clearly all Oxford students should have a pet cow.
21:01:31 <cheater99> you're not allowed to shoot bows at university grounds.
21:05:21 <cheater99> it's got this half chinese guy, what's his name
21:06:13 <alise> Foh my ocking god.
21:07:06 <cheater99> the final boss is dubbed by the same guy who dubbed spock in TOS
21:08:01 <alise> Spock was dubbed? I had no idea.
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21:10:58 <alise> Because the language is Perfectsprachen.
21:11:18 <cheater99> but i wager a bet that the voices make the movies better rather than worse
21:11:29 <alise> If they're bad movies, maybe.
21:11:33 <cheater99> sometimes i'll watch the original version and the actor has this wimpy voice
21:11:45 <cheater99> or the voices are barely audible since there's no post-prod
21:11:55 <alise> I'm trying to imagine anime with German voices now.
21:15:01 <alise> Yeah, Germany does seem to have a rather high weeaboo population. Quite strange.
21:15:10 <alise> Germany's a bit of an odd place really.
21:15:25 <cheater99> it's very tolerant of anything crazy
21:15:34 <zzo38> I prefer Star Trek instead of Star Wars, anyways. But I am Canadian
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21:16:01 <coppro> to both of the assertions in that sentence
21:16:11 <alise> cheater99: Some. I'm not a weeaboo but I can appreciate a good [imaginary singular of anime].
21:16:29 <alise> Star Trek is entertaining bad sci-fi, Star Wars is entertaining space opera
21:16:35 <pikhq> alise: "anime" is the singular.
21:16:36 <zzo38> You don't need a sinular/plural of "anime"
21:16:36 <alise> star trek is the more entertaining of the two
21:16:39 <alise> pikhq: I know, I know, but :P
21:16:42 <cheater99> either that or another kungfu movie... yup
21:16:46 <zzo38> s/sinular/singular/
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21:17:02 <pikhq> alise: The plural of anime, if there exists one at all, is animetachi.
21:17:16 <alise> Animetachi. Really now.
21:17:33 <pikhq> "-tachi" is "a group of".
21:17:41 <pikhq> Normally, plurals don't exist in Japanese.
21:17:54 <pikhq> But there are ways to specify that you are quite explicitly discussing more than one of something.
21:17:59 <pikhq> That is one of those ways.
21:18:43 <zzo38> I read the logs, in the US it is illegal to sell a computer without operating system? Is it allowed to be external disk? If it is required an operating system is it required to have a hard drive to install an operating system, or can it be in ROM?
21:18:53 <cheater99> there just isn't enough japanese around me
21:19:01 <cpressey> Clearly anime is the second-person past tense of animer
21:19:04 <ais523> zzo38: IIRC, it has to have an operating system, but a floppy disc with FreeDOS on is enough
21:19:10 <ais523> and the most common workaround
21:19:32 <cheater99> cpressey: what language would that be in?
21:19:32 <zzo38> ais523: So is allowed if it comes with a floppy disk and a floppy drive (otherwise there is no way to use it!), even if there is no hard drive?
21:19:41 <alise> ais523: that's what I Said
21:19:56 <cpressey> cheater99: the language where infinitive verbs always end in "er"
21:19:58 <ais523> although people would be unlikely to buy a computer without a hard drive nowadays
21:20:15 <cheater99> cpressey: what language would that be
21:20:16 <pikhq> cheater99: Moxtuto nihonnkﾞo siyo~.
21:20:55 <pikhq> cpressey: Anime is the abbreviation of animesixyon(animeshon). Which is of course Japanese for animation.
21:21:11 <alise> Anime should technically refer to French animation :P
21:21:38 <cheater99> you're totally romanizing this like you're on lsd
21:21:38 <pikhq> cheater99: Nani? Hﾞoku no henn na ro-masﾞi kﾞa suki sﾞixyanai ka? Ikenaine.
21:21:54 <pikhq> cheater99: I'm doing a bizarre encoding of kana. :D
21:22:11 <cheater99> yeah, if by bizarre you mean WRONG.
21:22:18 <zzo38> It seems a logical romanization but strange a bit
21:22:30 <pikhq> No, no, it's just very very systematic.
21:22:40 <zzo38> Not exactly like the same sound in English letters, but still a way to romamize kana in a well way
21:22:48 <zzo38> It is a more exact way.
21:23:03 <zzo38> Like where "x" indicates small letters, and so on
21:23:05 <cheater99> there is no inexactness about the standard way of romanizing.
21:23:16 <zzo38> And using grid romaji for most other letters
21:23:17 <pikhq> Uh, there actually is.
21:23:37 <pikhq> It doesn't distinguish between ぢ and じ, or づ and ず.
21:24:00 <pikhq> Which I encode as tﾞi and sﾞi, or tﾞu and sﾞu.
21:24:33 <pikhq> Tchi is the Hepburn encoding of っち.
21:24:42 <pikhq> And dzu is not Hepburn.
21:24:45 <cheater99> where have you been learning japanese - samurai sushi?
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21:25:02 <alise> cheater99: you're wrong and pikhq is right
21:25:24 <cheater99> i was taught by a japanese and i remember that much
21:25:56 <pikhq> Anyways: each kana gets encoded into ro-masﾞi as a consonant-vowel pair. The moraic ん is encoded as "nn". Diacritics (the dakuten and handakuten) are encoded as the half-width katakana versions of each. A small kana is represented by putting x before the consonant.
21:26:08 <alise> cheater99: your romanisations do not fit into any one romanisation system
21:26:15 <alise> you're just mixing shit around :P
21:26:16 <pikhq> A long vowel is encoded as in kana if the word is hiragana, or using - if the word is katakana.
21:26:19 <zzo38> The problem is just using non-ASCII characters, but if you are going to use non-ASCII anyways just write directly in kana? Just use "di zi du zu" might still fit with your system if you want to use only ASCII
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21:26:40 <alise> pikhq: Those `` chars should be superscripts on the next letter or something, they break the text up weirdly.
21:26:40 <zzo38> And encode moraic n always as "n'" is one way
21:26:41 <cheater99> alise: you're not a weaboo, stay out of this, silly european
21:26:51 <alise> cheater99: you said you don't know jp yourself
21:26:57 <pikhq> zzo38: If it's ASCII only, dakuten(ﾞ) is ` and handakuten(ﾟ) is ^.
21:27:10 <alise> Superscript dakuten!
21:27:32 <pikhq> alise: Sadly, they're not combining characters.
21:27:44 <cheater99> will it be insulting enough if i say i'm gonna go watch king of the hill cause it's more entertaining?
21:27:50 <alise> pikhq: You know Erdos' name?
21:27:50 <pikhq> alise: If there were such in Unicode, I'd use that instead.
21:27:55 <alise> Use the diacritic on that.
21:28:02 <zzo38> Still it doesn't make sense to me to use the dakuten and handakuten in romaji text, since if those are available you can use kana instead.
21:28:03 <alise> Close enough, you know? Like romanisations are close enough to kanji. :P
21:28:13 <pikhq> cheater99: あんたが日本語分かるか。
21:28:18 <alise> handakuten can be the o on top of Swedish's a-with-o char
21:28:40 <zzo38> alise: That is still not ASCII.
21:28:42 <pikhq> There are combining versions of it.
21:29:16 <zzo38> Why are you using romaji if it is unicode anyways??
21:29:18 <alise> zzo38: I don't care :P
21:29:34 <zzo38> (In my IRC client, I can receive Unicode but not send it)
21:29:34 <pikhq> cheater99: ﾊﾝｶｸｶﾅ ｶﾞ ｲｲ ﾃﾞｽ ｶ｡
21:30:09 <cheater99> way to go encoding japanese in katakana.
21:30:20 <pikhq> (ﾌﾙｲ ｺﾝﾋﾟｭｰﾀ ｶﾞ ｺﾉ ﾖｳﾆ ﾊﾝｶｸｶﾅ ｦ ﾂｶｯﾀ｡ ﾍﾝﾀﾞ ﾈ｡)
21:30:23 <cpressey> Just testing if I could send unicode.
21:30:27 <pikhq> Congrats, you just said "sun"!
21:31:04 <alise> pikhq: Write some stuff in the combining chars :P
21:31:25 <pikhq> alise: But that requires making it so I can actually input them...
21:31:52 <zzo38> There are however, common Japanese words with common romanizations that should be used when writing English text, even if unicode is available. But if you are trying to include Japanese text inside of an English text, romaji should not be used if unicode is available.
21:31:57 <alise> This is the correct spelling of Nihongo.
21:32:00 <pikhq> BTW, the ellipsis-equivalent is …….
21:32:27 <pikhq> Two characters' worth.
21:33:48 <pikhq> cheater99: とにかく、日本語で上手く話せるか。
21:34:10 <zzo38> I have 2 pokeballs in my drawer, the same drawer with the shogi game.
21:34:51 <cheater99> "you don't know who i am but i know where you live and if you start that sexual education course god help me i will" "- dale is that you?" "uh yes, can i speak to peggy?"
21:35:14 <alise> pikhq: kana is showing as sans but kanji as serif >_<
21:35:15 <zzo38> In the same drawer I also have a laminated paper that says "POCKET MONSTER PHILOSOPHICAL LEVEL 111" and with a wire through two holes in it.
21:35:29 <pikhq> alise: That sucketh.
21:35:35 <alise> so i assume i only have a sans kana font
21:35:41 <pikhq> Gothic & Mincho, BTW.
21:35:42 <zzo38> alise: Maybe whatever font(s) you use does something,
21:35:44 <alise> better than the unantialiased bitmap fonts in older ubuntu
21:35:47 <zzo38> Do you have a Chinese font installed?
21:35:49 <cheater99> pikhq: way to go encoding english as hiragana
21:35:52 <zzo38> That might be messing it up
21:36:11 <pikhq> cheater99: Waitwhat?
21:36:29 <cheater99> you can just speak to me in english
21:36:44 <cheater99> i'll believe you if you just say 'i speak japanese ok'
21:37:34 <pikhq> cheater99: It's when you start making claims that my bizarrely pedantic romanisation scheme is somehow "wrong" that I take offense, man.
21:37:45 <pikhq> And when you say ぢ is 'tchi'...
21:38:04 <pikhq> So, yes, after that I'm going to ask you if you can speak Japanese well, in Japanese.
21:38:59 <alise> pikhq: Please tell me a GUI toolkit that doesn't suck.
21:39:29 <pikhq> あるそ、 ずぃっす いっず いんぐりっし えん ひらがな。
21:39:46 <zzo38> alise: What are you writing that needs a GUI toolkit? And what operating system is the software for?
21:39:55 <zzo38> Because those can change which ones you might use, also
21:40:05 <pikhq> (also, *that* is English in hiragana.)
21:40:18 <alise> zzo38: Something that needs to be small and not totally ugly, Linux/C/X11.
21:40:37 <cheater99> no idea what that's supposed to mean
21:41:01 <cheater99> it's a good thing i can split my attention across this and king of the kill
21:41:21 <alise> cpressey: Stop that. :P
21:41:33 <pikhq> cheater99: "Aruso, zlissu izzu ingurisshi en hiragana", using mostly-Hepburn.
21:41:33 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes it is English in hiragana. Not generally the best thing to do, and it doesn't work well, but I can see what it is
21:41:44 <pikhq> cheater99: Or, to clean it up, "Also, this is English in hiragana."
21:42:02 <cpressey> alise: Maybe you can write a C wrapper for FLTK.
21:42:12 <pikhq> zzo38: Yup. This is how people in Japan start learning English. Painful, no?
21:42:15 <cpressey> Heck, people write C++ wrappers for C libraries all the time, why not the other way around?
21:42:33 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, it is not a good way of doing so at all.
21:42:36 <alise> cpressey: Possible, but a pain.
21:42:58 <cpressey> alise: All I know is, I don't know. They all seem to suck to me, too.
21:43:05 <cpressey> FLTK seemed to come closest to not sucking.
21:43:51 <cpressey> Qt makes me gag, as does Tcl/Tk. Not entirely sure why, but they do. GTK is awful, but better than those.
21:44:47 <alise> The IT Crowd is so awesome.
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21:45:07 <zzo38> I think Xaw is OK with a few enhancements that might be made, but it is no good for Ubuntu. Perhaps write a code that can work with multiple toolkits and has a separate file for codes specific to different toolkit it will automatically do
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21:45:19 <zzo38> Use the C preprocessor if you have to
21:46:09 <zzo38> And I even asked the question on 10.07.15 20:04:25 nobody answer yet
21:46:46 <alise> I'm not watching any episode atm, I was just exclaiming.
21:46:56 <alise> zzo38: Xaw is so ugly my eyes actually bleed, though.
21:47:01 <cheater99> i liked the one they found the guy in the closet
21:47:05 <alise> Here, ais523, you name a non-awful GUI toolkit.
21:47:38 <zzo38> I happen to think Xaw is OK, but not with Ubuntu and GNOME and that kind of stuff.
21:48:08 <alise> ais523: FLTK, if it weren't C++.
21:48:22 <alise> zzo38: I'm no GNOME fan or what have you but I can't stand Xaw.
21:48:40 <zzo38> alise: I am no GNOME fan either
21:48:52 <alise> cheater99: wxWidgets is shit anywhere :P
21:49:00 <alise> And it still uses GTK at the bottom on X11.
21:50:46 <zzo38> But what I know is if I write Linux distribution, the GUI programs would use a somewhat enhanced version of Xaw. (But there wouldn't be a lot of GUI programs anyways, most programs would run by command-line)
21:53:37 <cpressey> ais523: Indeed, Java's whole GUI schtick is not bad. But it does tie you to Java, or rather, things you can compile to the JVM. Unless you know otherwise, sir :)
21:53:51 <ais523> cpressey: it has issues other than that
21:54:08 <ais523> in that it has massive NIH syndrome
21:54:10 <alise> ais523: Such as being horribly slow, being Java, ...
21:54:17 <cpressey> s/not bad/not *that* bad, in the scheme of things/
21:56:07 <cheater99> Santa's hand crept a little higher on the little girl's thigh. His touch was light but insistent as his fingers stroked her smooth skin just an inch below the hem of her short skirt. Penny held her breath, hardly able to believe that this happening. Surely Father Christmas wasn't suppose to do things like that. She watched mesmerized as Santa's hand moved slowly but surely upwards. His hand was under her skirt now, caressing and stro
21:56:07 <cheater99> king the soft sensitive skin on the inside of her leg, just above her knee.
21:56:13 <cpressey> But clearly, someone needs to write a FLTK wrapper in C.
21:57:39 <alise> cpressey: Or YakWindows.
21:59:31 <alise> I'm at a loss as to where to start with Yak.
22:02:04 <cpressey> alise: Well, why did you feel a need for a GUI toolkit again?
22:02:14 <alise> To write GUI things in.
22:02:23 <zzo38> What program are you writing, specifically?
22:03:57 <cpressey> zzo38: She's putting together a Linux distro.
22:03:57 <alise> Utilities for Yak.
22:04:39 <alise> I guess YakWM would be the thing to start with, but that involves Xlib.
22:04:53 <alise> Say, can you have a non-reparenting WM that draws borders? pikhq?
22:05:37 <zzo38> OK write a Linux distro.
22:05:48 <pikhq> You reparent for the explicit purpose of having something to draw the borders on.
22:05:57 <cpressey> zzo38: I'm way on the "write your own OS" end of the pool, myself.
22:06:24 <alise> pikhq: What if you drew the borders in your own window around wherever the window is now?
22:06:35 <cpressey> Of course, it ends up being Smalltalk, no matter what you do, but somehow we trudge forward...
22:06:47 <pikhq> alise: That's what reparenting is.
22:07:06 <pikhq> You create your own window and declare that window's parent is your window.
22:07:10 <alise> pikhq: No, not even parenting.
22:07:11 <zzo38> What I know is I will instead do it by modifying Xaw: Add keyboard functions (including tabstop and accelerator keys), and mouse choirding. And also condifuration file to set colors/fonts/etc, so that you can tell the difference of some button/toggle by colors, a few additional widgets, not much more.
22:07:19 <zzo38> But most programs in my Linux distro will be command-line programs.
22:07:23 <zzo38> Hardly any GUI programs
22:07:28 <alise> Just make your border window slightly bigger than the window, and draw it straight behind.
22:07:31 <alise> Move it when that window moves.
22:07:33 <zzo38> cpressey: I also started writing my own OS!
22:07:48 <pikhq> alise: So... You want your own window around it, but PURE MAGIC to make them have any relation with the window being bordered.
22:08:39 <alise> pikhq: Yes. Because windows shouldn't go down with the WM ship.
22:08:52 <zzo38> cpressey: http://sprunge.us/XiYf http://sprunge.us/bIfX
22:09:02 <pikhq> alise: No way to do it in X.
22:09:21 <pikhq> Well, except for using X compositing.
22:09:29 <cpressey> I gave up making my own distro (of DragonflyBSD :)) long ago
22:09:48 <pikhq> In this case, you create your own windows and tell the programs to draw off-screen and you just ship events back and forth.
22:09:51 <alise> pikhq: How can I make my WM not intrusive then?
22:09:55 <cpressey> zzo38: Ooh, PD example code for entering unreal mode. You are my hero.
22:10:02 <alise> I don't think WMs should hold windows hostage in case of their death.
22:10:14 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes. Now you can do that too!
22:10:16 <alise> cpressey: We need surreal mode.
22:10:30 <zzo38> But when I get a new computer I will write a Linux distribution.
22:11:15 <zzo38> Likely with a lot of differences from other ones. Such as, no long options. Some difference in the commands. Different package manager. No web browser in core.
22:11:38 <zzo38> A new window manager and new shell.
22:12:24 <zzo38> It probably won't be POSIX anymore, although it is close enough that POSIX programs should run with making only a few changes (or no changes, in some cases).
22:13:18 <alise> pikhq: ~/.menu/Editors/Emacs{,.icon.png}
22:13:31 <alise> pikhq: Why hasn't anyone thought of this before me? OK, so I half-stole the idea, but still.
22:13:38 <alise> And ~/.menu/Editors/.icon.png, ofc.
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22:13:48 <alise> Just for simplicity.
22:14:13 <pikhq> zzo38: Eh, Linux isn't POSIX anyways.
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22:16:44 <zzo38> Even /proc/ would work differently in my system. But not entirely differently, just with a few differences and some things added, and write-access to individual process directories (with certain permissions)
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22:17:51 <pikhq> /proc is not POSIX.
22:17:59 <zzo38> When I make these changes, shell scripts will very likeli break, but most programs written in C will continue to work (although sometimes a few small changes might be needed)
22:18:06 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I know /proc/ is not POSIX
22:18:17 <zzo38> Still I would change it a bit to make improvement
22:18:24 <pikhq> Therefore, feel *free* to hack the fuck out of it.
22:18:37 <pikhq> If anything breaks from that, you didn't want it anyways.
22:19:29 <alise> pikhq: You mean like ps?
22:19:46 <pikhq> alise: Didn't. Want. It.
22:20:14 <zzo38> I probably won't change it so much to break ps but I might modify ps anyways
22:20:41 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/lab/robin/robin.html <-- There be my vision. Quite sketchy so far.
22:22:32 <zzo38> cpressey: The codes I posted for unreal mode is 888ASM anyways, so if you use a different assembler (which is likely) you will have to rewrite these codes in your assembler instead.
22:22:57 <cpressey> zzo38: Hm, I do (I use NASM) but it's short (surprisingly short) so it'll be easy to convert.
22:23:31 <alise> cpressey: Immediate suggestion:
22:23:33 <zzo38> The A20 line code is part of the codes for unreal mode as well.
22:23:48 <cpressey> Oh gosh, I remember that phrase ... "A20"
22:23:49 <alise> cpressey: Ernestine is like global variables. Make every process have its own ernestine. Now you have local variables.
22:23:55 <alise> e.g. installing its own mock drivers or whatevers... I dunno.
22:24:01 <alise> Basically, drop globals, make it all local.
22:24:07 <alise> cpressey: This lets you also give some processes restricted Ernestines.
22:24:15 <alise> cpressey: i.e. block access to certain devices
22:24:48 <cpressey> I mean, thanks for the suggestion, and yes you could do things like that, but, no.
22:25:07 <zzo38> cpressey: You might have to change all numbers to decimal, I don't know how NASM works. 888ASM works exclusively in hex.
22:25:47 <zzo38> 888ASM also works exclusively in uppercase.
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22:28:30 <zzo38> The MBR code is also public domain, feel free to use it in any of your own operating systems or for whatever other purpose you want to use it for.
22:28:40 <cpressey> alise: To start with, Ernestine is a lot more than global variables. If you want a local variable, you don't need Ernestine, you just write a device that stores things and start it, as a process. You know its device ID, you can send it messages etc., and if you don't tell anyone else the ID, only you can access it, thus local.
22:29:02 <cpressey> But you don't even need to go that far. Processes can store their own state, that is, local variables.
22:29:17 <alise> cpressey: Of course.
22:29:21 <alise> cpressey: But let me put it more convincingly.
22:29:33 <alise> I want to start a process Foo. But I don't want Foo to be able to access the confabulator.
22:29:41 <alise> I pass it a restricted ernestine that does not have knowledge of the confabulator.
22:29:52 <alise> Of course, you can only pass on altered versions of your own ernestine.
22:29:55 <zzo38> Or put a fake confabulator?
22:29:57 <cpressey> Or just tell Ernestine not to let foo know about the confabulator.
22:30:07 <cpressey> Ernestine is answering queries anyway.
22:31:21 <alise> cpressey: So Ernestine is the kernel. Okay.
22:31:25 <cpressey> btw, should I explain where that name comes from, or is it part of your cultural basis?
22:31:54 <zzo38> Putting your own Ernestine is a good idea though in one way, hook the fake Ernestine to the program, that passes everything other than the confabulator to the Ernestine that is real to you.
22:32:02 <alise> cpressey: Depends what you're referring to.
22:32:09 <zzo38> (I have a similar idea for Linux)
22:32:27 <alise> cpressey: You could also have a process's personal Ernestine, say, refer all its requests to you so you handle them.,
22:32:35 <cpressey> alise: Do you know why I called it Ernestine?
22:32:47 <alise> Sure, you COULD do all this by registering it with Ernestine, but then it'd just be a hacked-up implementation of local Ernestines.
22:32:52 <alise> cpressey: I don't know. Probably not.
22:33:37 <cpressey> alise: It's not hacked-up at all. It's intentionally centralized. How can I convince you this is a good idea? I probably can't.
22:34:22 <cpressey> alise: It's the name of a switchboard operator character made famous by Lily Tomlin.
22:34:35 <alise> Give me a good reason to like it in your fake-personal-Ernestine version.
22:35:07 <cpressey> alise: You'll insist on seeing it as "fake-personal".
22:36:00 <zzo38> A similar idea to a few of these things, not quite same as Linux or Ernestine (but it could be used in UNIX type systems maybe even Linux), is have a special file descriptor for accessing other things, and allow the program to hold it as a device with I/O control and so on.
22:36:13 <zzo38> But it won't work with current systems, it will only work when writing a new one
22:36:14 <alise> cpressey: Not necessarily.
22:41:01 <alise> "Its more formal name is digital tenovaginitis stenosans, which is ancient Latin for "electronic hand inflamed vagina without writing", which I believe is why most people prefer to call it Trigger Finger.
22:41:01 <alise> I have it, you know. Trigger Finger, I mean, not an inflamed vagina." --Steve Yegge
22:43:27 <cpressey> Interesting that he strongly believes you should make developer hiring decisions based on typing speed, then.
22:45:14 <pikhq> cpressey: Well, I know I wouldn't hire a developer that couldn't type at a reasonable pace.
22:45:44 <pikhq> Who the hell wants code written by some guy who can't be assed to figure out how to touch-type?
22:46:18 <alise> Steve Yegge's a really good writer, actually.
22:46:42 <alise> Proof: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddv7939q_20gw8h9pcx
22:46:47 <alise> An excellent short sci-fi story.
22:48:44 <cpressey> pikhq: Then I guess I wouldn't be working for you. I can't touch type.
22:49:36 <alise> cpressey: You...can't...
22:49:40 <alise> cpressey: I'm sorry, what?
22:49:44 <alise> You hunt and peck?
22:50:14 <pikhq> cpressey: You... Can't... Touch type?
22:50:21 <cpressey> alise: No, I can do it without looking at the keyboard.
22:50:30 <alise> That's touch typing.
22:50:33 <cpressey> If that's what you mean by "touch type", then I can do it.
22:50:33 <pikhq> That's touch typing.
22:50:42 <alise> Okay, some people define it as "Blah you have to use the home row and never move off and blah" but they're retards.
22:50:52 <alise> Moving your hands about the keyboard is by far the superior option in both comfort and speed.
22:51:13 <pikhq> alise: Any quick typist is at least going to be moving off the home row for speed's sake.
22:51:26 <pikhq> My hands, for instance, only vaguely hover over the keyboard.
22:51:35 <alise> pikhq: Not the purists who use learn-to-type programs.
22:51:38 <pikhq> They only reach down for the home row when I'm not actively typing.
22:51:48 <alise> Especially the Dvorak advocates tend to be home row nazis.
22:51:55 <cpressey> I never understood the whole "home row" thing, and I barely use my left hand.
22:51:56 <pikhq> Yes, really. The fingers just sorta float and come down to hit keys from time to time.
22:51:58 <alise> I probably type faster than them. :)
22:52:07 <pikhq> Well. It does kinda float *over the home row*.
22:52:11 <cpressey> Mainly my left forefinger. The others on my left hand do jack.
22:52:14 <alise> cpressey: The home row is supposed to contain the most common letters, therefore NEVER MOVE OFF IT EVER. Of course, it doesn't, and even if it did that would be bad advice.
22:52:27 <pikhq> cpressey: You may wish to learn to do two-handed typing.
22:52:29 <alise> pikhq: I rest my fingers on keys obviously.
22:52:32 <pikhq> It *does* make typing faster.
22:52:53 <alise> Oh, and my hands contort arbitrarily to use the modifiers
22:53:03 <alise> I dislike shortcuts with more than one modifier intensely.
22:53:15 <pikhq> I'm just now noticing that when I actually start typing that I actually pick my hands off of the keyboards so that my fingers can move more freely.
22:53:29 <pikhq> This has got to be really weird looking to people who advocate "proper technique".
22:53:41 <alise> My typing style is interesting in that it's the closest thing you'll find to a /native typist/.
22:53:42 <alise> Not fluent; native.
22:54:03 <pikhq> cpressey: I don't know.
22:54:03 <alise> I got a computer when I was three, typed a little bit until about two years after when I started typing more, and have been typing ever since, more and more over the years.
22:54:08 <cpressey> I mean there's many thing I may wish.
22:54:17 <alise> This is extremely similar to language development, except starting at three instead of zero.
22:54:20 <pikhq> cpressey: Oh, you mean "why type with two hands"?
22:54:23 <alise> And I have had no training or anything.
22:54:29 <alise> I have learned to type purely from exposure.
22:54:33 <alise> i.e., native typist.
22:54:35 <pikhq> Believe me, it's faster.
22:54:48 <alise> Therefore CHARLES DARWIN HIMSELF supports my typing style.
22:54:51 <pikhq> Also more comfortable.
22:55:28 <cpressey> pikhq: I have never found typing to be the limiting constraint on anything I wanted to do with a computer.
22:55:29 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FingerHandPosUSA.gif This... looks like bullshit to me, though.
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22:55:52 <pikhq> cpressey: How fast do you type, pray tell?
22:56:06 <cpressey> pikhq: I have no idea. Not *too* slowly, surely.
22:56:13 <pikhq> Also: man, the pinkies are really overworked.
22:56:24 <alise> pikhq: Actually I just realised this second.
22:56:38 <alise> pikhq: The timespans of my learning to type /totally match/ language development times.
22:56:46 <alise> Coincidence? Maybe ...
22:57:04 <augur> pikhq: why does it look like bullshit?
22:57:05 <cpressey> alise: Explains why you can handle an iPhone and have it not really show.
22:57:22 <pikhq> augur: My hands do not move that way at all.
22:57:30 <alise> cpressey: Hey, good point.
22:57:35 <alise> Damn, that's cool. xD
22:57:45 <augur> pikhq: true, but thats a normative map, not an actual one
22:57:50 <pikhq> I'm not sure how they are actually moving, but it's pretty not-matching-proper-technique.
22:57:59 <alise> augur: Explain my adoption of typing as a natural language.
22:58:16 <augur> alise: what do you mean your adoption of typing as a natural language?
22:58:22 <pikhq> augur: Yeah, but people try enforcing the norm for some reason.
22:58:33 <augur> pikhq: yeah, well, people are stupid
22:58:49 <pikhq> And the QWERTY keyboard is poorly designed.
22:58:56 <pikhq> Why oh why must my pinkies move so much?
22:59:06 <pikhq> Couldn't we make a keyboard layout where they do nothing at all?
22:59:30 <alise> augur: I started typing minimally at age 3; but only really two to three years after that. My "vocabulary" of typing moves, speed and lack of errors has increased steadily since then, and is now coming to a plateau. I can use odd keyboards like the iPhone at very high speeds for those devices with quite few errors. My typing style is quite erratic and unique; I doubt many others have learned to type "naturally" without any guidance.
22:59:48 <alise> augur: All this seems to match up with regular language development via exposure, even the timing, taking age 3 as "age 0".
23:00:41 <augur> alise: i learned to type without guidance! :D
23:00:57 <augur> but age 3 is already quite late for language uptake
23:01:02 <alise> augur: but at such an early age? in such an erratic way? with such perfect timing (2-3 years) of language development?
23:01:07 <alise> treat age 3 as age 0
23:01:17 <alise> two years after i started typing, before i didn't do much at all
23:01:21 * pikhq couldn't speak at all until age 4. Whaddya think of that, augur?
23:01:27 <augur> as for whether or not its remotely like natural language, we'd need a better study. its hard to know.
23:01:30 <alise> pikhq: He thinks you're autistic, which is logical.
23:01:30 <augur> pikhq: i think nothing of it!
23:01:33 <cpressey> pikhq: QWERTY is designed well. Its design goal was to slow down typists, because the earliest typewriters would jam if they typed too fast.
23:01:44 <alise> cpressey: we know.
23:01:45 <pikhq> augur: What's this about vaginas?
23:01:52 <pikhq> cpressey: That's piss-poor design.
23:01:54 <augur> pikhq: some boys have them
23:02:09 <alise> pikhq: Some evidence against my having autism: I had a large vocabulary at age 2.
23:02:21 <pikhq> augur: X-Ray Delta.
23:02:29 <pikhq> alise: Hooray, lack of developmental delays.
23:02:46 <cpressey> pikhq: It met its design goal, did it not?
23:02:50 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, but you get better logical reasoning skills and less emotional crap.
23:02:57 <pikhq> cpressey: It's a stupid design goal.
23:03:11 <cpressey> pikhq: That's different from a poor design.
23:03:32 <pikhq> cpressey: Having a stupid design goal makes for a poor design regardless of how well your goal was met.
23:07:24 <cpressey> pikhq: Yes, besides being a slow typist, did I also mention I am a terrible engineer?
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23:11:29 <pikhq> cpressey: Good typing makes up for poor engineering donchano.
23:12:04 <cpressey> pikhq: In a nutshell, you have explained modern education.
23:15:27 <cpressey> alise: Our disagreement about Ernestine is largely unfounded. Whether a device "has its own Ernestine", or whether there is but one Ernestine and it is customizing its responses based on what device is talking to it, is inconsequential from the point of view of the device.
23:21:25 <cpressey> s/is talking to/it is talking to/
23:21:27 <myndzi> cpressey> pikhq: QWERTY is designed well. Its design goal was to slow down typists, because the earliest typewriters would jam if they typed too fast. <- common misconception
23:21:47 <cpressey> myndzi: Aren't you a bot? Or is that a common misconception too?
23:21:50 <myndzi> it was actually designed to avoid consecutive keystrokes that would trigger levers next to each other
23:22:09 <myndzi> maybe i am just a very skilled chatbot!
23:22:11 <cpressey> myndzi: And what would happen if you triggered levers next to each other?
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23:22:18 <zzo38> cpressey: My idea was there is a proxy between the Ernestine and the programs, so additional proxies can be added so whenever any program accesses 0 there can be a proxy if there is one it will pass to that one and then proxy more
23:22:41 <myndzi> the difference is it wasn't made to "slow you down" to prevent jams, it was made to make jams less probable
23:23:49 <cpressey> myndzi: No design for a keyboard can change the probability of me having to type "ly".
23:24:32 <zzo38> I have idea about how 'patamagic can work in D&D: 'Patamagic feats can be taken any time you can take metamagic feats. 'Patamagic feats have a spell slot level which they take up. Prepared casters must spontaneously apply 'patamagic to the metamagic of a prepared spell (and select a slot of the 'patamagic's level or higher to lose at that time). Spontaneous casters must prepare 'patamagic to certain metamagic feats (and lose the slots at the be
23:25:16 <cpressey> zzo38: A proxy is one completely valid way of looking at it, but the important thing is that Ernestine is in control of the proxy, not the device.
23:25:17 <myndzi> cpressey: what qwerty does is make the physical locations of "ly" correspond to typewriter arms that aren't next to each othe
23:25:26 <myndzi> probability of jams != probability of typing two characters
23:25:44 <myndzi> it's the probability of typing two characters that are adjascent arms
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23:26:44 <cpressey> myndzi: But why not just change the letters that are imprinted on each arm?
23:27:20 <myndzi> because the position of the keys on the typewriter directly corresponded to the arms
23:27:32 <myndzi> unless you want to press the key labeled "F" and have it trigger the arm labeled "Q"
23:27:35 <myndzi> and i'm not sure why you would want to do that
23:27:46 <myndzi> it was a mechanical device, after all
23:27:51 <myndzi> the key presses directly moved the arms
23:28:28 <cpressey> myndzi: Indeed, I think I see what you're saying. I will explain it in a more refined fashion, next time it comes up.
23:28:30 <zzo38> Do you understand this idea of 'patamagic?
23:29:00 <myndzi> i just find it interesting that the most common argument when people talk about dvorak and qwerty is speed
23:29:01 <zzo38> 'Patapsionics can be similar
23:29:22 <myndzi> and the way it is presented is usually inaccurate, on both sides
23:30:02 <cpressey> myndzi: It was designed to minimize the occurrence of jams, at any rate, and that is, on a larger scale, partly about speed (because it takes you time to unjam the thing...)
23:30:14 <myndzi> you've got me there ;)
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23:30:31 <cpressey> Not just speed because I imagine it would also damage the damn thing and reduce its lifespan :)
23:30:42 <myndzi> oh, now it looks messed up, booo
23:30:51 <myndzi> silly random fonts being used for font linking
23:30:56 <cpressey> I don't have some of those characters :/
23:31:08 <myndzi> it's a smiley with a tophat monocle and cane ;D
23:31:25 <myndzi> i saw someone do the smiley so i had to add a body for him too :P
23:31:34 <myndzi> it doesn't play nice with the others though
23:33:38 <benuphoenix> Is +[] the shortest brainfuck infinite loop?
23:35:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:35:31 <pikhq> benuphoenix: Quite simple. :)
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23:41:44 <zzo38> Still nobody answered my questions about Enhanced CWEB before. Do you have any suggestions having to do with the metamacro processor? Would you use Enhanced CWEB for anything?
23:42:09 <alise> I don't seem to be the literate programming kind of guy.
23:42:18 <alise> I guess I think better in code after all.
23:42:22 <zzo38> alise: Enhanced CWEB does other things as well.
23:42:36 <alise> Anything other than macros?
23:42:42 <cpressey> zzo38: needs a 'patamacro processor ;)
23:42:59 <zzo38> You are not required to provide as much documentation as CWEB itself does, but you can.
23:43:49 <zzo38> It does do some things other than macros. You can also write codes in different orders, make printouts (whether or not it has much extra documentation), and a few more things. The metamacros feature is powerful for some things, too.
23:43:58 <cpressey> My literate programming experience begins and ends with Literate Haskell.
23:44:01 <zzo38> In addition, once I add the makefile mode it will be more useful.
23:45:20 <zzo38> One of its features is the change-file feature.
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23:53:18 <alise> cpressey: So, Robin is now less vapourwarish than aliseOS.
23:53:26 <alise> It has proper names for things and a rudimentary plan.
23:53:29 <alise> It seems I'd better catch up.
23:53:40 <alise> Of course, aliseOS is much more... everythingy.
23:54:54 <alise> I'm sad Google have acquired ITA.
23:55:05 <alise> An innovative, Lisp-using company of smart people. Now it'll be C++.
23:55:49 <alise> Not Go. Go is interesting and quite well-designed, but not tested extensively -- Google won't use it.
23:56:00 <alise> Google give lip service to it but really it's From The People Who Brought You Plan 9.
23:56:04 <alise> 20% time project. etc.
23:56:42 <alise> cpressey: Not a high opinion of Go?
23:56:53 <alise> I admit it's flawed. But it's interesting, nonetheless.
23:57:24 <cpressey> alise: I'm not personally sure what to make of it yet, but spot on about how Google looks at it.
23:57:48 <alise> The compiler, if nothing else, is a beautiful piece of Ken Thompson engineering.