00:00:14 <coppro> miscompiled code can happen, but it's rare
00:00:19 <pikhq> They're discussing the freaking source-control version of Clang.
00:00:34 <pikhq> coppro: Clang 2.7 currently miscompiles computed gotos.
00:00:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: The one they have in their repos.
00:00:47 <pikhq> Clang 2.7 doesn't support all of C++.
00:01:20 <AnMaster> I tend to use gcc because it is shorter to type and out of habit
00:01:46 <pikhq> I suggest using "make" for building programs.
00:01:59 <pikhq> If it's a one-file program, you don't even need a Makefile!
00:02:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes but writing CC = clang or just leaving that line out
00:02:13 <pikhq> Dude, CC is in my .zshrc.
00:02:19 <pikhq> As are CFLAGS and LDFLAGS...
00:02:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, that breaks lots of things
00:02:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, I used to have CFLAGS in my .bashrc
00:02:39 <AnMaster> gave up because it broke various strange apps
00:02:41 <pikhq> ... Things... Break... On CFLAGS?
00:02:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes CFLAGS="-march=native -pipe -O2" iirc
00:02:58 <pikhq> Either your CFLAGS suck ass or you should not ever ever ever ever ever ever ever touch those programs.
00:03:15 <pikhq> Do not ever ever ever ever evere ever ever ever ever touch those programs.
00:03:32 <pikhq> Whoever wrote them was probably drunk and less intelligent than the average doorknob.
00:03:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, I blame gcc for this. However cfunge does not support gcc 4.5.0, miscompilation and haven't been able to pin point a minimal test case.
00:04:14 <pikhq> -O3 is a compilation option that breaks pretty much all not-strictly-conformant code.
00:04:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't think someone writing a cycle accurate x86 emulator could be that drunk. Or that dumb.
00:04:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: If it doesn't build with -O2 -pipe -march, *you are that fucking dumb*.
00:04:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes but I'm pretty sure gcc messes up on some static inline with restrict pointers
00:05:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, also what about qemu? It used to need gcc 3.x
00:05:24 <pikhq> That used a metric fuckton of crazy shit.
00:05:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, yet it isn't dumb as such
00:05:43 <pikhq> Self-modifying code exempts you from my claim of stupidity.
00:06:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, that cycle accurate emulator was self modifying. And doing hacks to get into 32-bit mode from user space under a 64-bit linux app and what not
00:06:20 <pikhq> If you're doing self-modifying code, you are perfectly justified in demanding a specific compiler with specific CFLAGS. Because that's just that damned hard to do on multiple compilers.
00:06:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: Okay, why is it needing self-modifying code for *cycle accurate emulation*?
00:07:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, it did cycle accurate for only bits. That is you could select to only do that for some functions
00:07:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, also there is a variant integrating with Xen for whole-system profiling
00:07:24 <pikhq> That's not a cycle accurate emulator.
00:07:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, but for speeding up you can select doing only bits
00:07:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, since it is for profiling purposes mostly
00:08:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, it makes sense for that
00:08:07 <pikhq> That's not a fekking cycle accurate emulator.
00:08:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, _it is by default emulating a superscalar x86_ _cycle accurately_
00:08:49 <pikhq> It is an emulator which happens to have a cycle accurate mode.
00:08:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, the cycle accurate mode is default
00:08:58 <pikhq> And thus possesses a cycle accurate emulator.
00:09:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is a cycle accurate emulator that happens to possess a fast-forward
00:09:43 <pikhq> And when it fast-forwards all pretensions of accuracy go the hell away.
00:10:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, but since it is meant for profiling I think there is good reason to do this anyway
00:10:32 * pikhq beats AnMaster with a smart stick
00:10:36 <pikhq> WHY WONT YOU SMART BECOME
00:11:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, and unless you are doing the Xen thing it will be user space only. Which means that system calls will be left to the OS
00:11:31 <pikhq> ... Waitwaitwait. It only emulates userspace?
00:12:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, again there are two versions. The user space one. And the one that integrates with Xen.
00:12:03 <pikhq> Gah, it's only doing the easy stuff.
00:12:11 <pikhq> Only doing the easy stuff.
00:12:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, you fail so hard at reading
00:12:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, the one integrating with Xen do all the heavy work
00:12:55 <pikhq> Really? It emulates the bizarre, fucking-nuts IBM PC hardware?
00:13:19 <pikhq> Or does it translate Xen hypercalls through to Xen?
00:13:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh it isn't emulating perpherials like original IBM PC. It is not doing i386 for fucks sake
00:13:30 <AnMaster> the oldest one it can do still has SSE
00:13:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, because they completely don't care about older
00:13:49 <AnMaster> it emulates super scalar by default
00:13:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: So, it's not emulating a full computer, but only passing Xen hypercalls through?
00:13:59 <pikhq> It's *only doing the easy stuff*.
00:14:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't know the details. It does all the CPU and MMU stuff I know
00:14:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, since that is what it is meant to emulate
00:14:46 <pikhq> So, yeah. It's doing the easy stuff.
00:15:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, valgrind doesn't emulate a keyboard controller. Does that mean it fail at it's task? No
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00:16:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is not meant to emulate games for god's sake. It is too slow for that. It is meant for accurate profiling. I used it to find that using HugeTLB would not be of any major benefit to cfunge
00:17:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, you see. I profile before I optimise :P
00:17:13 <pikhq> So, it's meant for crazy people who believe in optimisation over readability.
00:17:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, just stop trolling now :)
00:17:39 <pikhq> The question you should ask before optimising is "is it fast enough", not "is it the WORLDS FASTEST".
00:17:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, That Depends. On your goals
00:18:11 <pikhq> Good code or 1337 code? Yeah.
00:18:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, no being the fastest in the world is fun
00:18:54 <AnMaster> I would never spell it like that
00:19:46 <pikhq> Laik, yur codz r fast. 1337.
00:20:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, also what about INTERCAL
00:20:52 <pikhq> INTERCAL is motherfucking nuts.
00:21:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, don't you love INTERCAL still?
00:21:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, otherwise why the heck are you in this channel
00:21:19 <pikhq> It's just motherfucking nuts.
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00:41:19 <alise> pikhq: AnMaster will never understand that using jokes to justify insane reality doesn't work; don't bother
00:42:09 <alise> Anyway, goodnight.
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00:45:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, you write lambdas in C. You should complain about 1337 C code :P
00:45:29 <AnMaster> if that is what you like to call it
00:46:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: I do not advocate this as good code.
00:47:00 <pikhq> I advocate it as being absolutely stark raving mad.
00:47:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, I never advocated cfunge as good code
00:47:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, my other C code is nothing like that
00:47:41 <pikhq> So, what you're saying is that cfunge is not good code?
00:48:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is worse code than cfunge though
00:49:26 <AnMaster> if it wasn't fun I wouldn't have done cfunge
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02:52:09 <CakeProphet> What option gives all users read/write access to a mountpoint in fstab?
02:55:54 <CakeProphet> for some reason even though I have rw and user options I can't write to my ipod. :P
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06:50:06 <zzo38> I found a license called "Free World Licence". It is not a open source license. I also believe it is not a free software license, although they claim it is. I looked at it and it is full of problems.
06:50:13 <zzo38> It sometimes contradicts itself.
06:50:20 <zzo38> It is not compatible with itself.
06:50:31 <zzo38> It requires internet if you want to use it.
06:50:43 <zzo38> Anyone that modifies the software must have email.
06:53:00 <zzo38> And if you write an operating system using this license, it would be illegal to execute any software on it.
06:56:40 <zzo38> I do not recomend using this license except for experimental purposes (at least it does allow conversion to GNU GPL by the original licensor).
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07:03:52 <Sgeo> The original licensor should always be able to apply whatever license e wants
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11:11:23 <Sgeo> Why am I awake?
11:17:07 <wareya> Today I learned that I can't use tor nodes to connect to espernet.
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14:58:53 <alise> I have all these plans for Yak but no starting point...
15:00:51 <ais523> hmm, I wanted to link oklopol to this, but I can't find him, so I'll link the whole channel instead: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~lorch/personal/self-ref.html
15:00:57 <ais523> it's a self-referential quiz
15:01:04 <alise> ais523: we've talked about it
15:01:06 <ais523> where almost all the questions ask what the answer to other questions is
15:01:12 <ais523> what was the conclusion of the discussion?
15:01:18 <alise> ais523: i'm curious: what do you think #20's answer is?
15:01:27 <alise> but I wonder what you think it is
15:01:38 <alise> ais523: shall I tell you? It's funny, actually.
15:01:54 <alise> ais523: (There are solutions that do not depend on #20 being correct, so this isn't a "spoiler".)
15:01:54 <ais523> you may as well tell me
15:02:07 <ais523> yep, I know, it says as much in the header
15:02:29 <alise> #20 is E. Ignorant people think standardised tests measure intelligence, ignorant people think barometers measure all of the weather (which is the combination of all the aspects listed above E).
15:02:32 <alise> Therefore the answer is E.
15:02:51 <ais523> that was one of the suggestions on reddir
15:02:59 <ais523> although someone else pointed out that E was self-contradictory
15:03:01 <alise> I'm 99.99% certain it was the author's intention.
15:03:09 <alise> ais523: only because of extreme pedanticism of (only)
15:03:11 <ais523> in that it's only A && only B && only C && only D
15:03:18 <alise> the point is that if you pick a non-E answer it's only that
15:04:07 <alise> ais523: I was going to do it with prolog but realised it'd be a bit of a bitch what with the question that involves primality or being divisible by 5 or whatever
15:04:08 <ais523> thinking about it, temperature and latitude affect the barometer's output directly; wind velocity is caused by a pressure /gradient/ and so is affected by what the barometer measures, but doesn't affect it directly; and latitude is irrelevant to the barometer's output
15:04:27 <alise> ais523: of course, but that's irrelevant
15:04:33 <alise> standardised tests /don't/ measure intelligence, obviously
15:04:40 <ais523> alise: not that much, 20 questions is small enough to just go prime(2), prime(3), prime(5), etc
15:04:46 <alise> they measure memorisation skills and ability to please pre-written answer shets
15:04:46 <ais523> and do arithmetic the good old Prolog way
15:05:00 <alise> ais523: therefore it isn't asking what barometers measure
15:05:09 <alise> it's asking what people wrongly think barometers measure
15:05:14 <ais523> alise: at primary school, I was given lessons whose only purpose is to teach us how to do well on IQ tests
15:05:15 <alise> which is the weather
15:05:21 <alise> therefore the answer is E
15:05:30 <ais523> I disagree with "weather = A+B+C+D"
15:05:37 <alise> well, ok, but /most people/
15:05:40 <alise> think weather = A+B+C+D
15:05:58 <ais523> temperature, wind velocity, latitude, longitude = weather?
15:06:05 <ais523> I'd think things like precipitation type would matter just as much
15:06:06 <alise> well, er, okay, i said it wrong
15:06:12 <alise> what i'm saying is
15:06:25 <AnMaster> ais523, yes METAR tends to contain a lot more
15:06:29 <ais523> and latitude and longitude influence the weather, but are hardly, in of themselves, weather
15:06:30 <alise> the whole snarkiness is "barometers measure longitude as much as standardised tests measure intelligence" and s/longitude/all the other options/
15:06:46 <ais523> well, I get they were trying to make a point along those lines
15:06:51 <alise> the whole thing is a sarcastic blight against standardised tests, and it specifically mentions "disagreeing with me" on #20, suggesting it isn't a "factual" answer
15:07:00 <alise> ais523: also, E is definitely correct; the answers spell a sentence
15:07:05 <alise> iff the last answer is E
15:07:17 <ais523> but ofc, due to the Earth not being spherical, a barometer in a suitable enclosure can be used to measure altitude
15:07:20 <AnMaster> METAR LBBG 041600Z 12003MPS 310V290 1400 R04/P1500N R22/P1500U +SN BKN022 OVC050 M04/M07 Q1020 NOSIG 9949//91=
15:07:29 <ais523> wait, put the qualifier on the wrong sentence
15:07:29 <AnMaster> ais523, that is an example metar, it is explained on wikipedia
15:07:45 <ais523> a barometer in a suitable enclosure can be used to measure altitude
15:07:51 <alise> ais523: as for what Yak is, Yak Linux is the Yet New Name for my Linux distro
15:07:56 <alise> with its Yet New Design
15:07:59 <ais523> and thus, if you're at sea-level, due to the earth not being spherical you can use altitude to measure latitude
15:08:10 <alise> it runs from RAM -> Ram Linux -> what's an animal amongst friends? -> Yak Linux -> "comes pre-shaven"
15:08:16 <alise> (because it's minimal because it runs from RAM)
15:08:58 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it is called an altimeter then
15:09:23 <ais523> my point is that in theory, you can measure latitude with a barometer
15:09:35 <ais523> presumably you could use the Bernoulli effect to measure wind speed with a barometer, too
15:10:33 <alise> barometers can also measure libido, blood pressure and heart bpm
15:11:05 <ais523> hmm, this reminds me of an old puzzle I heard
15:11:17 <ais523> which was "how do you measure the height of a clock tower, using only a barometer?"
15:11:26 <ais523> the interesting thing about it was that there were multiple stated "right answers"
15:11:51 <alise> nobody likes my barometer measuring bars pun :(
15:11:55 <alise> i am so sad i could cry forever.
15:12:11 <ais523> alise: oh, I didn't realise it was a pun
15:12:16 <ais523> after all, bars is a common unit of air pressure
15:12:24 <alise> yeah i guess it's not that punny
15:12:26 <ais523> and so I thought it was just a factual description
15:12:31 <alise> not punny, alise, not punny
15:12:34 <alise> stop trying to be punny
15:12:38 <alise> get it, punny is like funny
15:12:48 <ais523> alise: you are turning into AnMaster, stop it
15:13:44 <AnMaster> alise, don't feel sad about it. You are approaching a higher level of humour
15:13:53 <ais523> any suggested solutions for the clock tower problem, anyway?
15:14:03 <alise> ais523: Anyway, Yak is inspired by Tiny Core Linux, which has a terminal, a graphical package manager and the standard set of command-line utilities running on X11 in a 10 MiB ISO. And it uses *glibc*!
15:14:09 <AnMaster> ais523, measure pressure at ground and at top
15:14:16 <alise> AnMaster: i don't think anyone in the universe would call your sense of humour higher than ... anyone
15:14:24 <AnMaster> ais523, then use whatever formula you sue for it
15:14:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I forgot what that one is
15:14:32 <ais523> AnMaster: that's probably the simplest, but it's incredibly inaccurate
15:15:02 <ais523> the stated answer(s) I saw to the problem started with that one, the least accurate on their list, and got progressively more accurate as time went on
15:15:10 <alise> ais523: request a barometer with helicopter blades, get a really big tape measure, fly up holding one end
15:15:16 <AnMaster> ais523, okay. measure length of barometer, then measure how many multiples of barometers the clock tower height is
15:15:34 <ais523> alise: that wasn't actually a stated answer
15:15:41 <alise> ais523: whyever not? :D
15:15:52 <ais523> AnMaster: given that clock towers tend not to be straight, your answer won't work as is
15:15:58 <ais523> there is an answer that works along those lines, though
15:16:13 <AnMaster> ais523, oh that varies. I have seen both straight and non-straight ones
15:16:24 <ais523> at least, the one in this puzzle was apparently attached to a building
15:16:36 <ais523> every clock tower I've seen has been narrower at the top than at the bottom, though
15:16:48 <alise> ais523: I can middle-click but not right-click with a trackpad press (not button); explain this
15:16:53 <alise> middle-click is top-right hand corner of trackpad
15:16:56 <AnMaster> ais523, yes they tend to have non-flat roof
15:17:20 <alise> and clicking links with the top-right hand corner seems to do nothing, suggesting it's "button 4"
15:17:34 <alise> right click is bottom-right hand corner
15:17:38 <alise> now why do i have a button 4? explain this
15:17:50 <AnMaster> alise, your trackpad have 4 corners
15:17:54 <alise> and how can i set button 4 = right click?
15:17:58 <alise> the bottom-right corner is awkward to press
15:18:02 <ais523> alise: button 4 is mouse wheel scroll upwards
15:18:13 <alise> ais523: except not, apparently
15:18:19 <alise> fuck it, i'm just going to try xev to see wtf is going on
15:18:53 <AnMaster> I have a 4 button mouse. + scroll up/down and tilt left/right
15:19:08 <AnMaster> so left, right, middle, on-the-left-side
15:19:11 <alise> bottom-right hand: right click
15:19:17 <alise> top-right hand: middle click
15:19:26 <alise> anywhere else on trackpad: regular click
15:19:31 <alise> move hand up and down right side: scroll
15:19:46 <alise> now explain why top-left isn't right click
15:19:55 <alise> bottom-right is inconvenient because you can't rest your hands on the laptop while pressing it
15:19:57 <alise> since it's too far down
15:20:05 <alise> top-right: right click
15:20:07 <alise> top-left: middle click
15:20:13 <alise> anyone know where to configure this stuff?
15:20:25 <AnMaster> alise, I never heard of a trackpad doing it like this at all
15:20:40 <alise> I don't know; would dmesg tell me?
15:21:01 <alise> It's probably one of the two; it's a decent laptop.
15:21:10 <alise> In fact it's better than ThinkPads, nyah. :P
15:21:23 <AnMaster> alise, I use my trackpoint on my thinkpad :P
15:21:34 <AnMaster> alise, anyway what laptop model is it then?
15:21:35 <alise> AnMaster: Touche. The rest of the laptop is superior, though :P
15:21:43 <alise> Toshiba T133 or something.
15:21:56 <AnMaster> alise, does it have a magnisium roll cage? matte screen?
15:22:21 <alise> Actually, it has the perfect screen: it's technically glossy, which means you can use it outside perfectly, but the backlight is so good that you never see reflections when theres a picture on, even black.
15:22:44 <AnMaster> alise, sounds like it bleeds through then
15:22:54 <alise> It's silent, incredibly light (really, really light), has a long battery life, looks as slick as a MacBook, has 4 GiB of RAM, a fast but silent hard drive, the fan almost never goes on...
15:23:01 <alise> And it's cheap compared to a ThinkPad!
15:23:03 <AnMaster> alise, light laptop = easier to steal
15:23:08 <alise> ThinkPad: £1,000. This: £475.
15:23:23 <AnMaster> also I prefer the thinkpad look compared to macbooks
15:23:31 <AnMaster> slab of black >> white thin thingy
15:23:34 <alise> Sure, it has a 1.3GHz Core 2 Duo, but actually it's faster than my other computers.
15:23:37 <alise> AnMaster: It's not thin and white.
15:23:48 <AnMaster> alise, my thinkpad has a 2.26 GHz Core 2 Duo
15:23:48 <alise> It's actually crimsony red, though it comes in other colours.
15:23:52 <alise> And it's thin, but quite slabby.
15:24:01 <alise> AnMaster: Indeed. And it's probably not as fast as this.
15:24:04 <alise> Why? I don't know.
15:24:10 <AnMaster> and fan is usually never on or on at so low speed you can't hear it
15:24:10 <alise> It seems magical. I'm not sure what makes it so fast.
15:24:30 <alise> Seriously, this thing feels like a top-of-the-line Core 2.
15:24:37 <alise> ais523 has the 11 inch version of it.
15:24:47 <alise> AnMaster: My screen is higher dpi than yours :P 118 ppi
15:25:05 <AnMaster> alise, yeah and? it means bitmap games are even more painful :P
15:25:09 <alise> 1336x768 on 13". Yeah, too small for you, but I like it. The screen may be quite small but it has enough resolution to have a bunch of windows on the go.
15:25:14 <alise> AnMaster: Scale it 2x. :P
15:25:39 <alise> Anyway, this laptop is amazing and I love it, so nyah.
15:25:47 <alise> And it doesn't have that weird thing your ThinkPad has that you made that page about.
15:26:01 <AnMaster> alise, I love large monitors. That is why I have a huge desktop monitor that I'm using atm
15:26:12 <alise> I could use a huge desktop monitor too.
15:26:20 <AnMaster> alise, oh that page? just firmware upgrade tool
15:26:26 <alise> Anyway, both me AND ais523 like this (his the smaller version), and only YOU like yours.
15:26:45 <alise> AnMaster: I don't have to upgrade my SATA firmware. :P
15:26:49 <AnMaster> alise, okay it doesn't work like that. I know several other people using R500 and loving them
15:27:04 <alise> But they're not in here, and you talk to them so they're probably stupid!
15:27:11 <alise> My logic is infallible. Do not argue.
15:27:14 <AnMaster> alise, also magnesium roll cage
15:27:25 <alise> AnMaster: That means it's harder to destroy in case you need to.
15:27:36 <alise> Also, it's easier to steal without you destroying it first.
15:27:40 <alise> My keyboard has 0 flex too.
15:27:49 <AnMaster> alise, how do you mean easier to steal?
15:28:07 <alise> Well, if it was weaker you could destroy it before someone managed to get it out of your hands!
15:28:15 <alise> It's about as reasonable as your "lighter is easier to steal" complaint.
15:28:24 <alise> On a more serious note it's sturdy.
15:28:32 <alise> Anyway, you still paid tons more than I did. :P
15:28:32 <AnMaster> alise, yes but my lighter is easier to steal was followed by ";P"
15:28:44 <alise> Yeah, my jokes are good enough not to need indicators. >_>
15:29:05 <AnMaster> alise, and so did you for your iphone compared to my nokia
15:29:09 <alise> Currently what I paid for it is 5,337 SEK, but god knows what that was at the time. Financial meltdown fun!
15:29:23 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, but my iPhone can do more shit. Also, it was the only phone that COULD do that shit at the time.
15:29:26 <alise> Other smartphones are newer.
15:30:27 <alise> AnMaster: How about this? Its screen is so good that even freetype's awful slightly-hinted subpixel rendering (with the SUPER ILLEGAL patent patch) is /beautiful/.
15:30:38 <alise> Literally. The subpixels are invisible without a magnifying glass. Even for you.
15:30:50 <alise> So ... on a more interesting note ...
15:34:25 <alise> ais523: do you ever get the issue whre after typing a key your trackpad stops moving?
15:34:31 <alise> move with trackpad, hit key, trackpad stops
15:34:56 <ais523> alise: yes, it's deliberate IIRC
15:35:05 <ais523> because it's so easy to knock the trackpad by accident while typing
15:35:45 <Ilari> Wow: "-rw------- 1 Ilari users 828831888 Jul 18 17:12 .xsession-errors".
15:36:03 <alise> Ilari: Jesus fucking christ on a pogo stick.
15:36:06 <alise> What did you DO to poor X11?
15:36:15 <alise> ais523: So, say you were assembling a Linux distro. Where would you start?
15:37:01 <ais523> it seems unlikely that I'd spend time making a Linux distro
15:37:11 <alise> But presuming you did.
15:37:12 <ais523> alise: I don't see how you can have a "super illegal patent patch" for software
15:37:18 <ais523> this is the UK, there are no software patents here
15:37:25 <ais523> and arguably it's unenforceable even in the US
15:37:26 <alise> ais523: it enables the patented-by-Apple subpixel rendering
15:37:30 <alise> but Ubuntu enable it
15:37:32 <alise> and Ubuntu are US-based
15:37:37 <alise> therefore Ubuntu are breaking the law
15:37:38 <ais523> alise: Ubuntu are not US-based
15:37:42 <alise> ais523: Canonical are
15:37:51 <alise> Canonical owns Ubuntu
15:37:56 <alise> therefore Ubuntu must obey US law
15:38:06 <ais523> I'm pretty sure they're European
15:38:26 <alise> Isle of Man, would you believe it
15:39:02 <ais523> must be some complicated business reason to incorporate there
15:39:24 <ais523> also, have you seen /In re Proudler/?
15:39:44 <ais523> it was the first software patent case to be tried in the US after /In re Bilski/ was judged
15:39:55 <ais523> and it rejected the patent for being an abstract idea
15:40:00 <ais523> citing Bilski as a reference
15:40:24 <ais523> thus, it seems that software patents are already having difficulty being enforced in the US, as of a few weeks ago
15:41:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:41:39 <AnMaster> <alise> move with trackpad, hit key, trackpad stops <-- if ubuntu check mouse settings
15:42:13 <AnMaster> I disabled it since it broke completely turning off touchpad with Fn-Fx (whatever, thinkpad is not near here atm
15:42:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
15:43:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:43:18 <AnMaster> <Ilari> Wow: "-rw------- 1 Ilari users 828831888 Jul 18 17:12 .xsession-errors". <-- 828 MB?
15:43:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:43:42 <AnMaster> wait, that should be 790 I think
15:44:12 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
15:44:17 <AnMaster> Definition: mega B = 8000000 bit
15:44:31 <ais523> meanwhile, I've been trying to track down a problem with the webmail at the university
15:44:40 <ais523> because there's something really dodgy about its https certificate
15:45:20 <ais523> there's no chain-of-trust from it; it claims to have been signed by "TERENA SSL CA" but doesn't have their signature on it
15:45:20 <AnMaster> ais523, at least it isn't like the Door any more
15:45:30 -!- alise has joined.
15:45:32 <ais523> I checked Terena's website; they exist, but don't provide certificates directly
15:45:40 <ais523> but rather certificates signed by Comodo, who /are/ a genuine rot CA
15:45:44 <alise> <alise> ais523: is that // functioning as citealics? heh
15:45:45 <alise> <alise> "The battle system is a battle system. [...] You can save the game if you want sometimes. [...] The videogame has graphics and sound. The graphics are seen with your eyes and the sound is heard by your ears. When you start the game the graphics and the sound will occur almost at the same time, letting you know that the game has started. There is also text which players can read. [...] If you buy Final Fantasy XIII and like it, then you like Final Fa
15:45:46 <ais523> yes, very what the fuck
15:45:47 <alise> <alise> II. If you buy Final Fantasy XIII and don't like it, then you don't like Final Fantasy XIII. It has things in it that some people might enjoy but other people who have different ideas of what is enjoyable may not actually enjoy it. [...] In conclusion, Final Fantasy XIII is a videogame." --100% Objective Review: Final Fantasy XIII, Destructoid; http://www.destructoid.com/100-objective-review-final-fantasy-xiii-179178.phtml
15:45:52 <alise> what have I missed?
15:46:01 <alise> whoa, ais523 swearing, must be serious
15:46:11 <ais523> alise: it's a quoteswear
15:46:26 <ais523> I have no compunctions against swearing when quoting someone else
15:46:47 <AnMaster> "II. If you buy Final Fantasy XIII and don't like it, then you don't like Final Fantasy XIII. It has things in it that some people might enjoy but other people who have different ideas of what is enjoyable may not actually enjoy it." <-- zzo?
15:47:07 <alise> AnMaster: Well, the whole point is to be literal and factual and precise all the way through.
15:47:21 <ais523> <ais523> meanwhile, I've been trying to track down a problem with the webmail at the university <ais523> because there's something really dodgy about its https certificate <ais523> there's no chain-of-trust from it; it claims to have been signed by "TERENA SSL CA" but doesn't have their signature on it <ais523> I checked Terena's website; they exist, but don't provide certificates directly <ais523> but rather certificates signed by Comodo, who /are/
15:47:47 * alise tries to formulate a way to make ais523 damn another person
15:48:14 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:49:06 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society haha awesome
15:49:16 <alise> "Let's go out into international waters and BEAT THE FUCK UP some whalers."
15:49:31 <alise> they're like the batman of anti-whalers
15:51:07 <alise> "Sea Shepherd has responded by stating that its actions constitute enforcement of international maritime law under the United Nations World Charter for Nature."
15:51:45 <ais523> AnMaster: any ideas as to what's going on? do you think someone's trying to MitM me
15:51:56 <ais523> and if so, why would they go for a relatively obscure webmail service?
15:52:04 <ais523> that only serves on University?
15:52:22 <alise> ais523: no. nobody is trying to mitm you
15:52:22 <ais523> alternatively, the University IT staff went and bought a bogus certificate and didn't even test it
15:52:25 <alise> your university is just incompetent
15:52:33 <ais523> alise: I agree that a MitM seems unlikely
15:52:39 <ais523> as it would just be far too specific to make sense
15:52:45 <alise> hmm, AnMaster supporting a non-pacifist group
15:52:47 <alise> I think that's a new one.
15:53:05 <ais523> I can sort-of understand a student deciding to hack into the University and steal everyone's passwords, though
15:53:08 <ais523> at least it would explain the target
15:53:26 <ais523> I can also just about believe that the IT staff bought a bogus certificate and didn't even test it before putting it online
15:53:28 <AnMaster> ais523, contact the IT staff and ask them about it
15:53:36 <alise> ais523: but the student would have to have bought a certificate
15:53:40 <alise> which is bad anyway
15:53:43 <alise> why not just fake one?
15:53:50 <ais523> the cert isn't signed by a root CA, or anyone else for that matter
15:53:56 <ais523> it could be a self-signed cert with Terena's name on it
15:54:07 <alise> ais523: I imagine your university just sucks.
15:54:16 <alise> At least as far as IT goes.
15:54:27 <alise> Though it's Birmingham so it's probably awful! :P
15:54:27 <AnMaster> ais523, which uni is it now again?
15:54:32 <alise> AnMaster: U of Birmingham.
15:54:48 <alise> *University; "U" seems weird at the start.
15:54:49 <AnMaster> what is it with UK cities and -ham?
15:54:54 <ais523> alise: the uni's good mostly, but their IT staff do have various issues
15:55:01 <ais523> AnMaster: it's an ancient suffix meaning "town"
15:55:11 <alise> No, it means they eat a lot of ham.
15:55:11 <ais523> so it ends up in quite a lot of placenames
15:55:22 <alise> AnMaster: -shire also
15:55:28 <alise> (for surrounding areas around some cities)
15:55:31 <ais523> "Birmingham" translates as "the town of the people of Beorma"
15:55:36 <alise> Oxfordshire, Lincolnshire, ...
15:55:38 <AnMaster> alise, meaning "surrounding area?
15:55:50 <alise> AnMaster: well, that's what it means; I don't know what it originally means
15:55:56 <alise> something ancient, presumably
15:56:03 <ais523> alise: originally it was a particular sort of area
15:56:08 <ais523> a sort of administrative division
15:56:18 <ais523> just like we have counties nowadays
15:57:11 <alise> it occurs to me that the UK's provisions for avoiding people becoming stateless are irrelevant to the determined person
15:57:23 <alise> get citizenship in a country that doesn't have such precautions, renounce UK citizenship, renounce other country's citizenship
15:57:32 <ais523> why would someone be determined to become stateless?
15:57:35 <alise> ofc, it's probably more a safety feature than an anti-free-man people :P
15:57:40 <alise> *an anti-free-man feature
15:57:44 <ais523> besides, it's a UN rule that people can't become stateless, not just UK in general
15:57:46 <alise> ais523: the hell of it?
15:57:55 <alise> ais523: try US, then
15:58:03 <alise> I thought you said EU
15:58:11 <ais523> alise: becoming stateless would destroy your life, pretty much
15:58:14 <ais523> you wouldn't legally be able to go anywhere
15:58:22 <alise> ais523: what I'd /really/ like to be is a pure European Citizen
15:58:22 <ais523> it's not the sort of thing you do just for the hell of it
15:58:48 <alise> I'm already happy living in a country as a European Citizen; you get to vote and everything. I don't really want to be a British citizen.
15:59:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:00:33 <alise> We should just make the EU not suck, have a handful of US states and areas (the good ones) secede to Canada, bomb the US, then have Canada join the EU
16:00:41 <alise> I have said it before and I will say it again. :P
16:01:31 <ais523> I disagree with bombing the US
16:01:41 <ais523> it would cause a huge waste of innocent life, on both sides of the Atlantic
16:02:09 <AnMaster> ais523, does that mean you agree with the rest of that?
16:02:13 <alise> ais523: Shut up :P
16:02:19 <oerjan> it couldn't be the EU bombing the US, as that would contradict the hypothesis that the EU did not suck at that point
16:02:23 <alise> Okay, we can just get the people out of the US then cut it away from the rest.
16:02:45 <alise> The people of those shitty states can go to the cold parts of Canada. They have the room.
16:03:11 <alise> See? Now it's a perfect plan.
16:04:05 <oerjan> well unless we also support global warming, i doubt those parts have the food productivity...
16:04:24 <alise> well ... they can go to the moon then
16:04:49 <oerjan> but then they might haul comets and asteroids at us
16:05:18 <alise> Make the EU not suck. The good parts of America secede to Canada, and take over the rest of the US for Canada. Canada makes those areas not suck gradually, becoming more like the good areas. The Canada joins the EU.
16:07:17 <alise> Okay, okay, hmm...
16:07:23 <alise> (Not thinking about the plan. :P)
16:08:24 <oerjan> i would like to mention that the mutual-thinking-the-others-suck is a main part of the reason why anyone sucks in the first place
16:09:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, where should that correction go
16:09:21 <oerjan> and from there to conclude that alise's viewpoint is a part of the problem, not the solution
16:09:31 <alise> oerjan: are you suggesting we keep Texas?
16:10:32 <AnMaster> alise, you should know by now that in this channel we often takes jokes seriously and try to make them work
16:10:58 <alise> did I ever say I didn't know that?
16:11:32 <AnMaster> no but you didn't say the opposite either
16:11:58 <oerjan> AnMaster is now making an ass out of u and me
16:12:33 <oerjan> only in this particular context
16:12:50 <alise> assumptions, on the other hand, make an ass out of u and mption.
16:13:03 <alise> AnMaster: we no u dont get it
16:13:58 <AnMaster> dumb isn't same as not knowing references. Your joke about mption I did get however.
16:15:27 <oerjan> <alise> ais523: (There are solutions that do not depend on #20 being correct, so this isn't a "spoiler".)
16:15:38 <oerjan> as long as you don't mind having four of them, that is
16:15:54 <alise> i give it away and you don't even get it
16:16:03 <oerjan> alise: hey now _you_ are assuming
16:16:19 <alise> oerjan: i think it's pretty clear he has no idea
16:16:35 <alise> why do people keep following @tusho
16:17:00 <oerjan> i don't trust your judgement on AnMaster to be unbiased in such matters
16:17:31 <alise> <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't get it :P
16:17:31 <alise> <AnMaster> dumb isn't same as not knowing references. Your joke about mption I did get however.
16:17:44 <oerjan> alise: are you making brilliant twits, perhaps?
16:18:12 <alise> oerjan: none at all
16:18:27 * Sgeo is way too tired
16:18:33 <alise> "Your 18 friends are waiting" --Facebook email.
16:18:34 <oerjan> alise: maybe it's a zen thing, then. tusho _does_ sound japanese, after all.
16:18:42 <alise> oerjan: or a weeaboo thing :-D
16:18:54 <ais523> alise: are you on Facebook?
16:19:07 <ais523> it's a site I refuse to have anything to do with
16:19:24 <alise> oerjan: Perry Bible Fellowship reference turned meme.
16:19:36 <alise> It means "japanophile" in a more insulting way although is often self-applied.
16:19:47 <alise> oerjan: http://knowyourmeme.com/i/29097/original/PBF071-Weeaboo.gif
16:20:09 <alise> ais523: only technically
16:20:18 <alise> ais523: i made an account once never intending to use it, now i get spam about it
16:20:26 <ais523> so it only steals the parts of your soul you're willing to give it
16:20:29 <alise> ais523: i certainly haven't given them any of my details
16:20:38 * oerjan notes google claims wikipedia's japanophile article contains the term. it doesn't now.
16:20:41 <alise> i just cba to delete it, I get fluff in my inbox anyway
16:21:05 <alise> I need to create a new email account and a new IM (Live Messenger) account.
16:21:12 <alise> And then convince everyone I know to switch to Jabber.
16:21:19 <alise> (Note: Never happening.)
16:21:39 <Sgeo> alise, Google Talk uses Jabber
16:22:03 <alise> And everyone I know uses Live because everyone that everyone I know knows uses Live.
16:22:16 <alise> Therefore nobody I know switches to Jabber, therefore they use Live, therefore people who know them use Live because they use Live.
16:22:57 <Sgeo> Most people in my area use AIM, my "boss" for this project uses GTalk, my "co-worker" uses Live, as does [co-incidentally] my best friend
16:23:15 <AnMaster> Gregor, I just realised: happy bday
16:23:19 <alise> cheater99: CAPITALISM.
16:23:24 <alise> Gregor: unhappy birthday
16:23:34 <alise> Sgeo: AIM is most common in America, Live in the UK.
16:23:47 <oerjan> Gregor: crazily silly birthday
16:24:40 <alise> Gregor: CAPITALISTIC BIRTHDAY
16:24:42 <oerjan> what AnMaster _didn't_ realize is that Gregor has been idle for 17 hours
16:25:19 -!- DH____ has joined.
16:25:49 <oerjan> you're right. let's make no more asses.
16:26:14 <alise> hmm, perrybiblefellowship.com now redirects to the book, even though a new comic was posted recently
16:26:23 <alise> it's pbfcomics.com
16:27:48 <oerjan> <alise> I'm 99.99% certain it was the author's intention.
16:27:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think he reads scrollback
16:28:17 <oerjan> the sentence made up of the answers if you use E is kind of a hint, there...
16:28:28 <alise> oerjan: indeed; i forgot about it at that point
16:30:53 <oerjan> <alise> ais523: I was going to do it with prolog but realised it'd be a bit of a bitch what with the question that involves primality or being divisible by 5 or whatever
16:31:00 <alise> so uh, anyone have tips for building a small kdrive?
16:31:17 <oerjan> strictly speaking you never need to program that one, it falls out of the rest
16:31:30 <alise> oerjan: howso? because it can't be that answer?
16:31:35 <alise> you never need to program anything, of course
16:31:39 <alise> you can just inline the answer
16:32:06 <oerjan> the rest of the information fixes what that question has to be without considering its options
16:32:36 <oerjan> at least i don't recall every checking it
16:32:46 <alise> in prolog it'll be a bitch though
16:32:47 <oerjan> (before the number was fixed)
16:33:11 <oerjan> or wait, hm, maybe it was fixed before the number
16:33:19 <alise> ais523: will this break in Prolog if you do q1(X)?
16:33:22 <alise> assuming their are other rules
16:33:36 <ais523> alise: it won't break q1(X)
16:33:40 <oerjan> in any case i never used the options to determine the answer of it
16:33:47 <ais523> when it backtracks to checking q1(a), it'll recursively try q1(b)
16:33:55 <ais523> so long as that doesn't cause infinite recursion, you don't get an infinite loop
16:34:05 <alise> ais523: so this is kosher?
16:34:06 <alise> % The first question whose answer B is question
16:34:06 <alise> q1(a) :- q1(b). % (A) 1
16:34:06 <alise> q1(b) :- q2(b). % (B) 2
16:34:06 <alise> q1(c) :- q3(b). % (C) 3
16:34:06 <alise> q1(d) :- q4(b). % (D) 4
16:34:08 <alise> q1(e) :- q5(b). % (E) 5
16:34:22 <ais523> alise: it's OK as long as you don't cause a loop
16:34:24 <oerjan> alise: you don't want to do it that way, you want to pass the answers as an argument not read them off the database
16:34:28 <ais523> unfortunately, doing that for every question, it will cause a loop
16:34:32 <alise> ais523: it probably won't. maybe.
16:35:02 <oerjan> alise: because it's awkward to backtrack over something that's fixed in the database?
16:35:02 <alise> this way utilises prolog's strength
16:35:07 <alise> oerjan: it isn't fixed
16:35:12 <alise> qN are all predicates over their answer
16:36:48 <oerjan> alise: but you are not passing the information of what the answer is to the right side
16:37:03 <oerjan> the a and b in the first clause are not unified with each other
16:37:28 <alise> oerjan: well I can always omit the a option
16:37:32 <alise> because it's trivially contradictory
16:37:35 <alise> would it work then?
16:38:53 <alise> in q2, do I have to codify that no other questions have such answers?
16:39:09 <alise> so I have to write out 18 things of the form
16:39:11 <oerjan> i doubt that it works.
16:39:18 <alise> eh I'll just assume it
16:39:26 <alise> ow q3 will be difficult to code
16:39:31 <alise> ais523: will it work, you know prolog better :P
16:41:34 <oerjan> for one thing, q1(X) only says that X is _a_ possible answer to question 1. if there is more than one solution that trivially breaks down because a clause like q1(b) :- q2(b) doesn't even say that those assignments belong to the same global solution
16:43:34 <alise> "Firefox is not available in the standard repository, but the ultra-fast Minefield is - a customized version of Firefox." *rage*
16:44:15 <oerjan> and even if there is only one _global_ solution, it might still break down because you are only looking at local parts of it, with no necessary global consistency
16:44:47 <oerjan> you need to pass the global solution somehow to assure global consistency.
16:45:41 -!- alise has left (?).
16:45:43 -!- alise has joined.
16:45:47 * alise reboots into Tiny Core Linux
16:45:50 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:50:37 <oerjan> <ais523> and thus, if you're at sea-level, due to the earth not being spherical you can use altitude to measure latitude
16:51:18 <oerjan> i _think_ sea level is approximately a gravitational equipotential surface all over the world
16:51:52 <oerjan> the non-sphericality is due to rotation, but that _also_ affects gravitational potential in general relativity
16:52:20 <oerjan> whether atmospheric pressure is directly related to that, i'm not sure
16:53:46 <oerjan> an intuitive (to me anyhow) argument is that if sea level was not at the same gravitational potential everywhere, the water would _fall_ to the lower potential. of course there are other forces modifying this.
16:54:01 <ais523> oerjan: except that the rotation affects the water the same way it affects the crust
16:54:09 <ais523> which is an intuitive to me answer that it's different
16:54:29 <AnMaster> ais523, the rotation would counteract gravity as well
16:54:44 <ais523> AnMaster: are you trying to agree or disagree with me?
16:55:29 <oerjan> note same gravitational potential doesn't mean same gravitational acceleration, i think
16:55:47 <AnMaster> okay I know nothing or relativity so *shrug*
16:56:34 <oerjan> ais523: i think both the water _and_ the crust bulges at the equator precisely _because_ the rotation counteracts gravity (and in general relativity, is unified with it)
16:56:49 -!- alise has joined.
16:57:03 <ais523> so what effect does that have on air pressure?
16:57:10 <alise> Is there anything like VESA that supports arbitrary resolutions?
16:57:13 <ais523> hmm, this sort of question is what Usenet is for, but I don't know where to ask
16:57:26 <alise> ais523: usenet is useless nowadays
16:57:29 <ais523> alise: seems unlikely, video resolutions have historically been a mess
16:57:31 <alise> what's the question?
16:57:51 <ais523> alise: whether average air pressure at sea level varies by latitude
16:58:05 <alise> I want to try some miracle fruit.
16:58:13 <alise> Heh, it sounds like a drug when you say it like that.
16:58:15 <ais523> we're getting confused trying to work out the effect of the Earth's rotatoin on it
16:58:45 <oerjan> gravitational acceleration _does_ vary, iirc
16:59:04 <oerjan> so is air pressure determined by potential, acceleration, or both...
16:59:07 <AnMaster> ais523, shouldn't the air bulge in just the same way as the crust and the water?
16:59:29 <ais523> AnMaster: what affect does that have on /pressure/?
17:00:21 <alise> lol they've made E. coli express miraculin
17:01:05 <alise> fuck my ethernet controller with a stick
17:01:18 <ais523> alise: that sounds kind-of painful
17:01:32 <alise> some people are into that!
17:01:55 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:02:49 <alise> ais523: more to the point, even /the last ubuntu release/ didn't support it
17:02:54 <alise> tiny core linux doesn't either
17:03:29 <alise> configuring the kernel is tedious
17:04:10 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_pressure seems to say nothing relevant about latitude. maybe there is no effect or it is swamped by other factors...
17:04:17 <alise> anyone ever built kdrive? :P
17:05:06 <alise> ok i wish jwm had a less shit config file
17:05:31 <oerjan> well, there's that map at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_pressure#Mean_sea_level_pressure
17:06:42 <alise> i ought to just make a good wm grumble
17:06:56 <oerjan> and that really doesn't even look approximately symmetric about the equator
17:07:57 <oerjan> ok maybe _very_ approximately
17:08:15 <oerjan> if you ignore antarctica
17:10:52 * alise notes that the "GTK+" fltk theme is bearable
17:11:06 <alise> writing a C binding to a C++ lib. sounds "fun"
17:11:32 <ais523> are you allowed a C++ wrapper with extern "C" in it?
17:12:08 <AnMaster> alise, what controller is that?
17:12:21 <alise> that realtek one or something
17:12:32 <alise> ais523: i want to write a c program using fltk
17:12:35 <alise> fltk is a c++ library
17:12:40 <AnMaster> <alise> configuring the kernel is tedious <-- suggestion, do like I did recently. Get ubuntu kernel, edit the single option I needed to edit, build, install packages
17:12:45 <AnMaster> that way I have it as a package too
17:12:56 <AnMaster> well actually I needed a patch and and two options
17:13:04 <alise> AnMaster: but actually i want to change most options
17:13:07 <alise> to make the kernel tiny
17:13:21 <AnMaster> alise, well, then tough luck :P
17:13:25 <alise> dammit, if i can't fit a usable desktop (more complete than tiny core) in 30-40 MiB, I'll kill myself
17:14:00 <alise> ais523: actually i guess what i really want is a sh binding to fltk :P
17:14:06 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, I did some more changes. Turning off lots of modules I didn't need. To reduce compile time
17:14:13 <AnMaster> I don't need modules for dell laptops for example
17:14:16 <alise> AnMaster: Modules? No modules.
17:14:22 <alise> We can't afford modules.
17:14:53 <alise> AnMaster: what's that insane envbot hack that sets variables in the parent/
17:14:57 <alise> like tcl's uplevel
17:15:05 <AnMaster> alise, meh. I need them on my thinkpad. I need backported wlan drivers on 2.6.31 (yes the main reason was to downgrade from 2.6.32 due to bug halving battery life compared to 2.6.31)
17:15:09 <alise> AnMaster: and can it define functions?
17:15:31 <AnMaster> alise, hm, not sure about functions
17:15:35 <AnMaster> alise, I think it could with eval
17:15:47 <AnMaster> alise, and it is printf -v. Of course using eval would work
17:16:06 <AnMaster> alise, though it depends on the variable not being declared local as well in the calle
17:16:12 <AnMaster> after all that would set it's own variable then
17:16:26 <alise> okay, so you can just do eval 'foo () { }'?
17:16:35 <AnMaster> alise, I don't know. I think you can
17:16:42 <AnMaster> alise, not sure if you can inside a function
17:16:51 <AnMaster> it would definitely work at top level, or should
17:16:59 <alise> win = $(window 100 100 200 90)
17:17:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:17:11 * AnMaster listens to GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp9.flac
17:17:13 <alise> AnMaster: the only gui toolkit that doesn't suck
17:17:18 <alise> I'm surprised you don't know of it
17:17:24 <alise> its only flaw is being C++
17:17:42 <AnMaster> can't remember any details about it
17:18:21 * alise looks for something like flwm but with less suckage
17:18:22 <AnMaster> alise, from what I remember wxwidgets isn't too shitty apart from being C++
17:18:39 <alise> AnMaster: uses (bloated) gtk as backend on X11, is C++y C++ (whereas FLTK is "just plain OOP" C++)
17:18:46 <alise> AnMaster: is overcomplicated
17:19:12 <AnMaster> alise, GTK+ looks nice though. I like clearlooks quite a lot
17:19:23 <cheater99> alise: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/markets/7895242/Mystery-trader-buys-all-Europes-cocoa.html
17:19:27 <AnMaster> sure, from a programming POV it is not as good
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17:19:51 <AnMaster> alise, http://www.fltk.org/shots.php <-- hm...
17:20:00 <AnMaster> alise, does fltk support themes?
17:20:15 <AnMaster> because I don't really like it's default style. Reminds me of old gtk/gnome versions
17:20:45 <AnMaster> must have been back when I used red hat
17:20:57 <AnMaster> not completely sure of when it was
17:21:46 <alise> AnMaster: yes it does
17:21:53 <AnMaster> the only thing that annoys me about gnome currently is that several useful gnome settings seem to only be accessible through gconf-editor... :/
17:21:55 <alise> AnMaster: the "GTK+" theme -- which doesn't seem to be anything to do with GTK -- is nice
17:22:02 <AnMaster> and it seems to be more like that for every release
17:22:22 <AnMaster> alise, hm. So it isn't like the QT GTK+ theme which actually uses GTK?
17:22:57 <alise> AnMaster: it isn't, it's its own style
17:23:12 <AnMaster> alise, any screenshot of it? :)
17:23:34 <alise> AnMaster: i'll try and get one
17:24:01 <alise> AnMaster: just need to download some "demo" program
17:26:34 <alise> AnMaster: might take a little while
17:26:44 <AnMaster> alise, btw how do you set theme for it? does it use some config panel app or do you edit a config file? Or perhaps it is up to each program using the toolkit?
17:27:38 <alise> AnMaster: "program -s[cheme] foo", I think it provides additional options to all programs (probably opt-out-able)
17:27:43 <alise> maybe there's some env var
17:27:56 <alise> and programs can presumably set it
17:28:01 <alise> cool, Fl_Text_Editor is a whole port of nedit
17:28:09 <alise> can do syntax highlighting and everything
17:28:15 <AnMaster> alise, does that means it provides main() for you? and you use some other entry point?
17:28:55 <alise> #include <FL/Fl.H>
17:28:55 <alise> #include <FL/Fl_Window.H>
17:28:55 <alise> #include <FL/Fl_Button.H>
17:28:55 <alise> int main(int argc, char *argv[]) {
17:28:56 <alise> Fl_Window* w = new Fl_Window(330, 190);
17:28:58 <alise> new Fl_Button(110, 130, 100, 35, "Okay");
17:29:02 <alise> w->show(argc, argv);
17:29:08 <alise> that ->show is presumably what does it.
17:29:13 <alise> so you could override that.
17:29:28 <alise> w->show(3, { "", "-s", "GTK+" });
17:29:37 <AnMaster> doesn't SDL provide main() or something like that?
17:29:52 <AnMaster> I seem to remember there was something strange with SDL_main() or such
17:30:09 <alise> jeez the fltk demo programs suck
17:30:11 <alise> AnMaster: yeah on OS X
17:30:30 <alise> breaks at least the haskell binding, you have to expose a haskell program to c and write a short bit of c to fix it
17:31:19 * alise decides to find a representative screen from the ui designer instead of trying the demo programs
17:32:11 <AnMaster> using haskell ←→ <anything impure> bindings feel kind of being a traitor to haskell if you see what I mean
17:32:33 <alise> Eh. The IO monad is impure anyway.
17:32:42 <ais523> is there some sort of impure-bindings monad?
17:32:43 <alise> Unless you're an FRP geek, in which case good for you.
17:33:01 <ais523> it feels a bit wrong to have everything impure just stuffed into IO
17:33:12 <ais523> although I suppose it makes sense as an "ordering of side-effects monad2
17:33:14 <alise> ais523: well, you could use the evil io-to-st stuff if it's just state it does
17:33:17 <AnMaster> ais523, remember that setting for editing a shortcut by typing a key while hovering over the menu item?
17:33:21 <alise> state and real-world effects
17:33:26 <alise> what other kinds of impurity would there be?
17:33:39 <ais523> it's almost a decent idea, it just needs to be impossible to trigger by accident
17:33:40 <alise> AnMaster: http://i.imgur.com/ajm2X.png <-- here's a small but representative sample of the GTK+ theme
17:33:42 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems to only exist in gconf nowdays. At least I can't find it in any other place
17:33:50 <alise> AnMaster: it's basically like the default theme, but smoothed and rounded and less ugly-3D
17:33:55 <ais523> say, if double-clicking on the shortcut edited it, I'd have no problem
17:34:24 <ais523> or make it double-right-click if you don't want to wait after the first click to see if there's a second
17:34:43 <alise> AnMaster: the GTK+ theme seems quite new; it didn't have it the last time I tried it
17:34:43 <AnMaster> ais523, annoying since I wanted to edit some short cuts for the gnome-terminal. I use both konsole and gnome-terminal (on different computers) and 1) I prefer the konsole ones for switching between tabs, more friendly on the hands 2) I prefer having the same in both.
17:34:57 <alise> so I'm quite happy with fltk, it's just that i don't want to use C++.
17:35:00 <AnMaster> alise, hm how is that like GTK+ ?
17:35:02 <alise> i can just use pyfltk i guess but i'm no python fan
17:35:04 <alise> AnMaster: god knows
17:35:14 <alise> AnMaster: it doesn't use gtk colours, maybe it looks like the author's favourite gtk theme
17:35:22 <alise> all i know is "-s GTK+" makes fltk apps suddenly look nice
17:35:32 <AnMaster> alise, it looks nothing like clearlooks however.
17:35:38 <alise> hey, this means dillo doesn't necessarily have to be totally ugly
17:35:42 <alise> now the only remaining issue with dillo is that it sucks at rendering.
17:36:12 <alise> ugh, it depends on fltk2
17:36:22 <alise> (experimental version)
17:36:42 <alise> fltk2 isn't in debian :P
17:36:50 <alise> and everyone uses 1.1
17:36:53 <alise> and 2 is a moving target
17:36:59 <alise> but then again, dillo 2 is new and shiny, so...
17:37:22 <AnMaster> alise, hm I just had an idea. However... Did you say before that you wanted to make a small linux distro? And if you did, did you seriously mean it?
17:37:30 <alise> AnMaster: Absolutely.
17:37:40 <alise> AnMaster: 30 MiB for base graphical install; with a browser if I have my way.
17:37:45 <alise> Run from RAM, always.
17:38:04 <alise> Seriously: with 4 GiB of RAM, you can even run an Ubuntu install from RAM and have half left.
17:38:18 <alise> Substitute a much less bloated distro, and you have ... all the software you ever need. Running from RAM. Insanely quickly.
17:38:45 <AnMaster> alise, some random notes: you can save a lot on /usr/share/icons/**/*.png by 1) optipng, advpng and advdef 2) hardlinking identical icons.
17:38:59 <AnMaster> from what I remember, on my system I saved something like 10 MB when I tested that
17:39:13 <AnMaster> about 7 from compressing, and the rest from hardlinking
17:39:16 <alise> AnMaster: hell, there won't be many icons.
17:39:30 <alise> maybe a few on the desktop, maybe some in the menu, and the basic set, maybe tango
17:39:38 <alise> won't bother with svg or anything
17:39:48 <alise> AnMaster: but thanks for the tip
17:39:52 <AnMaster> alise, right. Oh btw I didn't hard link between themes for those numbers. Doing so saved about another 5 MB. Mostly on the KDE icon themes
17:39:53 <alise> hardlinking? I'd rather not
17:39:55 <alise> does softlinking work?
17:40:13 <AnMaster> alise, well probably, but I happened to have a tool for automatic hardlinking of identical files handy
17:40:30 <AnMaster> no idea if apps like symlinks there
17:41:40 <AnMaster> alise, oh another thing, iirc gtk creates some icon cache file. Good if you don't care about space because that way it just mmaps that file containing the icons into the processes that needs it. Saves on RAM and such. But it means a file about the same size as the icons. Which might be an issue
17:41:55 <AnMaster> same size as the icons combined I mean
17:42:16 <alise> AnMaster: but does it create it on bootup?
17:42:25 <alise> if so, that's fine; it'll go into ram and not be saved
17:42:32 <alise> amusingly, the whole thing will run off a tmpfs :-)
17:43:16 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:43:59 <AnMaster> /usr/share/icons/gnome-previous $ (du -sh --total *x*/; du -bsh --total *x*/) | grep total; du -bsh icon-theme.cache
17:44:08 <AnMaster> that diff between -sh and -bsh is strange
17:44:25 <AnMaster> hm I guess it isn't unexpected with loads of small files
17:44:41 <AnMaster> oh and gnome-previous is because I don't like the current gnome icon theme. They changed it for the worse recently
17:46:02 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:46:05 <AnMaster> the dir with *.svg icons is 8.1/8.7 MB (actual-file-size/size-on-disk)
17:46:50 <AnMaster> for the *.png of all sizes combined that figure is 2.4/11 MB which is, as I said, a unexpectedly large difference
17:47:59 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:49:35 <zzo38> Maybe I should create a channel on my IRC server, for Enhanced CWEB.
17:50:21 -!- alise has joined.
17:50:27 <alise> if aewm had more buttons on its window i'd totally use it
17:50:46 <zzo38> alise: Do you need more buttons on the window? Can't you just use three mouse buttons?
17:51:08 <zzo38> Or do you have a mouse only 1 button
17:51:16 <AnMaster> alise, see log btw, a bit too much to repaste without being spammy
17:51:20 <alise> I have a two-button mouse, but it's a trackpad.
17:51:21 <alise> AnMaster: pastebin?
17:51:27 <alise> zzo38: So middle-clicking etc. is inconvenient for me.
17:51:28 <AnMaster> spamy? spammy? hm which is the correct spelling
17:51:31 <alise> Also, I'd forget which is which. :P
17:51:34 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:52:11 <zzo38> I think sprunge is a good pastebin, it can operate in plain text. HTML is not needed (unless you want syntax highlighting)
17:52:45 <zzo38> You can operate it even if you have no web-browser software installed, but it is still compatible with using any web-browser software to view the files (including text-only browsers)
17:54:05 <alise> w3m -dump http://sprunge.us/ZMYH?x | sed '/^$/d'
17:54:10 <alise> the worst way to get a line-numbered sprunge paste ever!
17:54:47 <alise> another acceptable option is "curl http://sprunge.us/ZMYH | cat -n" :P
17:55:23 <pikhq> Which is not-POSIX.
17:55:39 <alise> http://www.small-window-manager.de/pictures/sWMdoc-1.3.6.png ;; this works in slightly over 12 kib of disk space
17:55:46 <zzo38> If I make X window-manager, there would be no buttons on the window border. You could instead use different mouse buttons, single or double click, with or without modifier keys, for different functions. With the window manager's key held down, the mouse button can be used anywhere in the window.
17:55:53 <alise> it has three buttons on the windows, you can give it a taskbar
17:56:01 <alise> i guess my brain truly does operate on windows 95
17:56:18 <ais523> alise: the windows 95 interface isn't awful
17:56:29 <ais523> it's good enough for enough purposes that it's rarely worth needing to try something better
17:56:33 <ais523> and people are familiar with it
17:56:36 <pikhq> alise: On an actual, very serious note, have you checked out DirectFB?
17:56:36 <alise> of course aliseOS's interface is far better
17:56:41 <alise> but tiling WMs I just can't do
17:56:45 <zzo38> Also I would make window-manager with no icons.
17:56:47 <alise> as well as the uber-minimalist ones like evilwm
17:57:10 <zzo38> And have a lot of function by keyboard, all of which must use the window-manager's key.
17:57:12 <alise> a title bar, minimise, maximise, close buttons, alt-tab to switch between windows, and the ability to have a taskbar with a clock, a list of windows, and a nested menu to start programs with
17:57:15 <alise> oh, and alt-drag to move a window
17:57:19 <alise> my brain can't operate with anything else
17:57:46 <alise> pikhq: is that the one with an X server?
17:57:59 <pikhq> alise: It has a rootless X server as an option, yes.
17:58:10 <alise> pikhq: does it work well?
17:58:15 <ais523> zzo38: have you seen xmonad?
17:58:21 <AnMaster> hm I wonder how sprunge allocates the urls. From what I remember it doesn't seem to be in order (which would indicate it is some sort of ASCII-encoded counter)
17:58:22 <alise> pikhq: can it support 1366x768
17:58:41 <zzo38> When I write window-manager, it don't use ALT+drag. But instead, wm-middlebutton to move a window.
17:58:42 <alise> AnMaster: random while clash, then base-62 or something
17:58:49 <alise> pikhq: do i need a silly fb driver
17:58:52 <zzo38> I have not seen xmonad
17:58:55 <AnMaster> and it is a bit too short for it being a pure hashsum without lots of collisions
17:59:08 <pikhq> alise: It uses the Linux framebuffer for unaccelerated 2D, yes.
17:59:12 <zzo38> O! It is written in Haskell.
17:59:14 <AnMaster> alise, hm. that seems so inelegant. I wonder if there source for it is public
17:59:21 <pikhq> (accelerated 2D and 3D, it uses the DRI)
17:59:37 <alise> AnMaster: it's basically what tinyurl does
17:59:48 <alise> AnMaster: it's to stop people snooping around
17:59:50 <alise> other people's pastes
17:59:58 <alise> pikhq: so i need an fb driver.
18:00:11 <AnMaster> alise, huh, I thought tinyurl did it in order. Or maybe they used to? Because if you look at the low numbers there is lots about unicycles iirc.
18:00:16 <alise> Hmm, Palm webOS uses DirectFB. Interesting.
18:00:22 <alise> AnMaster: Probably they used to.
18:00:31 <pikhq> It needs /dev/fb0. :)
18:00:37 <alise> pikhq: which one supports this hardware at that resolution
18:00:39 <alise> protip: I doubt there is one
18:00:44 <alise> it's either ati or nvidia. all the same really
18:00:50 <pikhq> alise: Which graphics card?
18:00:52 <alise> neither has an fb driver i imagine, not an up to date one
18:01:05 <AnMaster> alise, iirc the creator of tinyurl had that as a hobby or something.
18:01:13 <pikhq> Actually, they *are* both up to date.
18:01:31 <pikhq> FB drivers are much, *much* easier to keep up to date than X drivers.
18:01:35 <alise> pikhq: i wish there was something that could just ... set things to goddamn resolutions
18:01:40 <pikhq> 2D acceleration stuff last changed in the 90s.
18:01:42 <AnMaster> hm who is behind sprunge I wonder
18:01:42 <alise> like a vesa that could support 1366x768
18:02:18 <alise> AnMaster: Srirupa Deadwyler, 407 Shurs Lane, PA 19128, US
18:02:49 <pikhq> Gaaah. Why did VESA have to limit graphics modes so very much?
18:02:57 <alise> pikhq: yeah it's so retarded
18:03:09 <alise> here is my new unaccelerated graphics specification
18:03:26 <alise> OS says to hardware, "give me modes".
18:03:39 <pikhq> "Fuck it, we're going to specify the *current* common graphics resolutions. Fuck expansion."
18:03:42 <alise> hardware gives a list of triples of three integers
18:03:58 <alise> OS says to hardware, "I'll take (A,B,C)."
18:04:03 <AnMaster> hm I wonder how search engine crawlers will handle this one: http://sprunge.us/robots.txt
18:04:14 <alise> OS says to hardware, "I'll take (A,B,C) on ADDRESS."
18:04:21 <alise> hardware hooks into ADDRESS
18:04:22 * AnMaster tries to figure out how to find status code in firefox
18:04:30 <alise> now ADDRESS is an A*B*C array
18:04:51 <zzo38> AnMaster: You might need a extension add-on for that. (Vonkeror has it built-in)
18:05:19 <AnMaster> nvm, found it. No idea if it is from some extension or not
18:05:22 <alise> unsigned char *gfx = address;
18:05:28 <alise> gfx[(y * width) + x] = rgb;
18:05:39 <alise> unsigned char *gfx = address;
18:05:42 <alise> gfx[(y * width) + x] = r;
18:05:45 <alise> gfx[(y * width) + x + 1] = g;
18:05:48 <alise> gfx[(y * width) + x + 2] = b;
18:05:52 <alise> pikhq: is there ANY ISSUE with this at all?
18:06:01 <alise> pikhq: is there ANY WAY in which it is inferior to VESA?
18:06:31 <pikhq> alise: That's almost identical to VESA, except with less shity negotiation.
18:06:53 <pikhq> After the negotiation is done, it *is* VESA.
18:07:36 <alise> pikhq: Oh, and there's also a "ok, give up on ADDRESS". This disables the video and releases ADDRESS. You can then re-negotiate to, say, change the resolution.
18:07:46 <alise> So to change res to some foo that we know works:
18:07:59 <alise> actually it's just "ok give up"
18:08:01 <alise> since there's only ever one address
18:08:13 <zzo38> If I make window-manager, the only way you will be able to use a picture is as the background picture (tiled or exact size of the screen, but no stretch). Or use a solid color as a background. No picture/icon for anything else.
18:08:19 <alise> setup_gfx(new_width, new_height, new_depth);
18:08:27 <zzo38> And it will support both tiled and floating windows.
18:08:29 <alise> reorganise_windows_in_wm();
18:08:34 <alise> WOW THAT WAS HARD.
18:09:12 <alise> pikhq: Please, please tell me how VESA is retarded. HOW did they not just think of doing this?
18:09:55 <AnMaster> hm what bits does VESA include? the interface to software? Hardware protocol? Both?
18:09:58 <zzo38> Double-left-click title-bar to maximize (but not restore; title bar will be hidden for maximized windows), double-right-click title-bar to close.
18:10:28 <alise> AnMaster: vesa is the hardware protocol
18:10:46 <alise> e.g. a vesa driver will be able to display a bunch of square resolutions up to about 1280x1024x32 on just about any device
18:10:50 <alise> (assuming the device supports that)
18:10:52 <alise> slowly, no acceleration
18:10:59 <pikhq> alise: VESA hateth you.
18:11:02 <alise> now the issue is IT FUCKING SUCKS AT RESOLUTIONS
18:11:12 <alise> pikhq: is it possible to tell the card to use a mode without trying to negotiate for it?
18:11:23 <AnMaster> alise, with hardware protocol I meant "format of data sent between graphics card and monitor"
18:11:23 <alise> like "fuck you vesa, i'm telling my good old buddy Mr. Card to just use 1366x768"
18:11:41 <pikhq> alise: No, it has hardcoded resolutions.
18:11:42 <zzo38> And, single-left-click to activate the window for keyboard focus (if the configuration option HOVER_TO_FOCUS is not set), and maybe double-middle-click to switch floating/tiled?
18:11:45 <zzo38> Do you like this??
18:12:07 <AnMaster> alise, also your suggestion seems to assume rectangular monitor :(
18:12:15 <alise> zzo38: try sloppy focus -- hover to give keyboard focus, click to raise to top
18:12:23 <alise> AnMaster: yes it does.
18:12:24 <alise> AnMaster: suck it.
18:12:28 <ais523> alise: do you know of any video cards that /don't/ assume rectangular monitor?
18:12:30 <AnMaster> alise, and even more importantly: rectangular pixels
18:12:33 <alise> AnMaster: the gfx card can easily just ignore the portions not included in the rectangular shape
18:12:36 <alise> AnMaster: it doesn't assume that at all
18:12:42 <zzo38> alise: Yes, if HOVER_TO_FOCUS is set, you still have to click to raise to top
18:12:45 <AnMaster> I want a display with hexagonal pixels!
18:13:12 <ais523> AnMaster: how would you do subpixel antialiasing?
18:13:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know enough about how it is done on regularly shaped display to answer that
18:13:54 <AnMaster> I mean, I know the idea, but not the exact formula and such
18:14:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's done by treating each subpixel as a pixel. And antialiasing. Seriously, that's it.
18:14:31 <alise> AnMaster: You have a WxH area you want to put text on.
18:14:50 <alise> AnMaster: Render, greyscale antialiased, to a (3W)xH area, treating it as square (so text is really fat).
18:14:59 <AnMaster> especially not for edges that are turned 90° compared to the sub pixels. With that I mean if you have like: |R|G|B| and a line like ------ through the middle of that
18:14:59 <alise> Now, you have each R,G,B pixel.
18:15:11 <alise> Compress the (3W)xH to WxH by treating each pixel as R, G, B in succession.
18:15:22 <alise> AnMaster: You don't have to consider that at all.
18:15:50 <alise> You have to do the greyscale antialiasing otherwise the text just looks like a rainbow party.
18:15:53 <AnMaster> aren't there cameras with hexagonal CCDs?
18:15:56 <zzo38> Or, instead of HOVER_TO_FOCUS, set MOUSE_FOCUS_MODE: 0=left-click title only, 1=hover, 2=click anywhere in window, 5=hover and raise, 6=click anywhere in window and raise, 7=hover but click anywhere to raise
18:15:59 <AnMaster> I seem to remember reading about that
18:16:07 <AnMaster> err hexagonal pixels on the CCD I mean
18:16:21 <zzo38> Is this way of MOUSE_FOCUS_MODE more better?
18:17:24 <alise> I wonder how easy it would be to patch aewm and add moar butans.
18:17:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: Whoever designs those is an asshole.
18:18:10 <alise> I wonder if the ultimate fate of all Linux users is FVWM.
18:19:45 <alise> pikhq: "dual window manager prototype (minimalist dwm with no tags, just one view)"
18:19:56 <alise> pikhq: The suckless guys are so crazy, they apply the adjective "minimalist" to a stripped-down fork of dwm, not dwm itself.
18:20:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, I seem to remember there was a good reason for it.
18:20:20 <alise> AnMaster: most efficient packing of 2d space?
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18:20:49 <AnMaster> alise, could be that. It was ages ago I read about it.
18:21:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, do you know how colour camera CCDs are conventionally designed? As squares of 4 elements: 1 blue, 1 red and two green.
18:21:55 <AnMaster> built up of lots of such groups
18:23:18 <AnMaster> which results in some interesting post-processing before you have a "conventional" image file
18:26:11 <alise> ooh ede seems nice
18:26:21 <alise> FLTK-based win95-like wm
18:26:32 <zzo38> I prefer window manager with no-buttons. I can make a no-icons window manager. And no desktop environment.
18:26:37 <alise> EDE (Equinox Desktop Environment) is simple and fast desktop environment with familiar look and feel. EDE uses FLTK toolkit for GUI presentation and UNIX philosophy for it's design.
18:26:37 <alise> With UNIX philosophy, EDE splits each component in separate executable entity that do one job and do it good. This makes EDE very easy to alter on user needs or requirements.
18:26:37 <alise> EDE is light and fast. It uses C++ carefully yielding fast startup, low memory usage and great portability. Also, we care not only about how EDE runs, but how much time is needed to compile it.
18:26:37 <alise> This facts makes EDE a perfect desktop environment for older computers and embedded devices. But, you can use it on your everyday hardware too.
18:27:05 <alise> ofc the desktop environment itself is a load of useless crap
18:27:09 <alise> but the wm seems just fine
18:27:17 <alise> and it even supports xft
18:27:18 <zzo38> Maybe it can be done, dragging the mouse across the root window creates a floating terminal window.
18:27:26 <zzo38> Double-clicking creates a tiled terminal window.
18:27:53 <zzo38> wm-space (or maybe some other key) creates a terminal window, also.
18:28:03 <alise> Yuck, Enlightenment.
18:28:32 <alise> EvilPoison. I hope that's a blend of evilwm and ratpoison :-)
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18:28:54 <alise> evilwm with ratpoison keybindings
18:31:08 <alise> http://www.gilesorr.com/wm/table.html Awesome.
18:33:10 <alise> ais523: hey i just realised what the unit /should/ have me for
18:34:03 <alise> http://www.gilesorr.com/papers/otherwm2003/images/aewm.png jesus christ
18:36:52 <alise> maybe i'll just use http://karmen.sourceforge.net/karmen-0.13-640x480.png :P
18:37:59 <alise> i know i've gone crazy because i keep thinking in all seriousness "why does everyone else deliberately make mistakes when designing window managers?"
18:39:37 <alise> His figure andmovements were those of a puppet cut out of erot kleine schwester shingle and jerked by astring; and his address corresponded very well with his appearance.Now, if you think fit to sell me those spectacles, I willpay nackt freundin you the largest market price for glasses.The contrary is, of course, inzest bilder vater tochter the truth; I have always paiddearly for whatever kindness others have shown me.But now don't you want to buy abonnet o
18:39:37 <alise> r a cloak to carry home to bumsen und blasen your wife?Well, you're whistlin' now, birdie; that's my intention; set 'em allout. --sink sink socks
18:42:05 <alise> the new postpostmodernism
18:43:42 <pikhq> alise: NIH is, indeed, a crippling disease.
18:43:51 <alise> pikhq: but an AWESOME one
18:44:18 <alise> unless combined with other mental diseases like religion and craziness (a recognised mental disease). Then you get LoseThos.
18:44:35 <alise> Wow, the website changed.
18:44:39 <pikhq> Karmen is an interesting-looking window manager.
18:44:41 <alise> If you have an x86_64 PC machine such as a Core_i7, a Core_2_Duo, a Pentium_D...
18:44:41 <alise> nothing worse than a Pentium_4_Extreme_Edition, then enjoy the clean, 64-bit,
18:44:41 <alise> programming environment of LoseThos.
18:44:57 <alise> It's the new diaeresis.
18:45:10 <alise> pikhq: Too bloated!
18:45:31 <pikhq> alise: It appears to be written using *ed*.
18:47:40 <pikhq> Y'know, the only editor.
18:48:14 <alise> pikhq: Oh, Karmen.
18:48:20 <alise> I thought you said that other K one. I forget what.
18:48:40 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, I remember that screenshot.
18:48:47 <alise> From the command issued you can tell he actually uses ed.
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18:50:51 <alise> I have a new motto (restating of KISS), which used to be something like "REMOVE EVERYTHING! Now make it not suck!"
18:51:10 <alise> It is "may it not be tricksy", said by E. E. Cummings to a French translator, telling him to use the regular form of his name, not "e e cummings".
18:52:01 <alise> * "Core_i7", "Core_2_Duo", "Pentium_D" and "Pentium_4_Extreme_Edition" are
18:52:01 <alise> trademarks of Intel Corp.
18:52:04 <alise> No, they're really not.
18:52:23 <alise> * "Linux" is probably a trademark owned by Linus Torvalds.
18:53:12 <pikhq> Yes, Linus Torvalds does own that trademark.
18:54:00 <pikhq> No, certainly. Some guy registered a trademark on it and then demanded royalties...
18:54:33 <pikhq> Linus sued, and they settled with Linus having the trademark.
18:55:41 * oerjan wonders if there's any OS ending in -sux
18:56:09 <pikhq> I'm sure there's a Jesux.
18:56:30 <pikhq> http://pudge.net/jesux/
18:56:38 <alise> "Reddit, today I was woken up by a squirrel jumping through my window, knocking all my shit over, tearing posters down, JUMPING ON TOP OF ME IN BED, and shitting everywhere. I have scratches on my back from it using me as a springboard."
18:56:47 <alise> "Fucker climbed right through the hole his compadres had made in the mesh screen of my bedroom window. Super hot night, so I decided to sleep naked. Woken up by this lunatic scrabbling around my room, onto my bed, climbing up my guitar, jumping off shit, flying around like some rodent daredevil. I screamed like a little girl. Anyway, it jumped at me, I ducked, it used my back to jump onto my desk. Squirrel claw meets bare skin. What are my chances? Should I
18:56:48 <alise> see a doctor or vet?"
18:57:24 <alise> "qmail replaces sendmail as the standard MTA (sendmail was written by a prominent homosexual)"
18:57:28 <alise> are you /sure/ it's a joke
18:57:40 <alise> "# chmod(1) accepts hexadecimal modes, such as 0x01B6"
18:57:44 <pikhq> One in very poor taste.
18:58:05 <EgoBot> execve failed: OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied
18:58:14 <alise> "There is some sort of perverse pleasure in knowing that it's basically impossible to send a piece of hate mail through the Internet without its being touched by a gay program. That's kind of funny." --Eric Allman
18:58:17 <alise> pikhq: Oh come on, it's funny.
18:58:58 <pikhq> alise: I've had a bit too much of that sort of bullshit to laugh.
18:59:04 <oerjan> `run perl -e 'print 0x01B6;'
18:59:33 <alise> pikhq: Poor, poor persecuted Christian. I think you'll find you guys have done most of the persecution in memory. Don't be so sensitive about religion.
18:59:56 <pikhq> alise: No, no, it's the "hahah persecuting gays is funny" bit that's un-funny.
18:59:59 <zzo38> Maybe they can change "kill" to "euthanize" like System VI, or else call it "sendsignal"
19:00:01 <pikhq> Nothing to do with religion.
19:00:07 * oerjan doesn't get the 0x01B6 reference
19:00:12 <alise> pikhq: It's mocking conservative Christian attitudes in the US.
19:00:25 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, yeah...
19:00:27 <alise> zzo38: oh i thought it was absurdism
19:00:35 <alise> "And in the middle of it all, a random feature!"
19:00:40 <pikhq> It's just too damned close to reality.
19:00:51 <oerjan> i thought of 666 but didn't recall that was octal
19:00:59 <alise> pikhq: You know, we /could/ revert my evacuation plan to a bombing plan.
19:01:17 <zzo38> "daemon" could be changed to "service" like Windows NT services does?
19:01:37 <alise> fsck could be changed to mkluv.
19:01:59 <alise> mount will only run if given the --missionary flag
19:02:03 <zzo38> No, it should be changed to something that makes sense for what it is for
19:02:59 <zzo38> If you don't like the word "fsck", spell it out in full as "filesystemcheck" perhaps
19:05:13 <alise> I wonder if I could mod karmen to not suck.
19:05:41 <zzo38> "Jesux" might or might not be a joke. I am unsure whether the author knows whether or not it is real.
19:05:52 <alise> I'm not sure by what evidence pikhq considers it a joke.
19:06:15 <zzo38> Probably it is not, since the "This page last updated Wednesday, September 29, 1999, 13:51:07 PDT" and the "Jesux will be here in late December" together suggest it is not real and is just a joke
19:06:16 <alise> he works at slashdot
19:06:25 <alise> zzo38: or vaporware.
19:06:39 <zzo38> Yes, or vaporware.
19:07:00 <pikhq> alise: It claims to be.
19:07:18 <alise> pudge appears to be a republican though
19:07:22 <alise> so uh he's an idiot either way
19:07:34 <pikhq> http://pudge.net/jesux/jesux.html
19:07:44 <pikhq> He's an idiot, *but* it's a joke.
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19:08:17 <alise> he's a devout christian, what fun
19:08:29 <alise> pikhq: so it's not a "joke", just a "thought experiment"
19:08:33 <zzo38> I suppose it is a joke a bit similar to System VI.
19:08:53 <zzo38> But System VI joke was done before Linux was invented, and one of the System VI features has been implemented in Linux.
19:09:30 <alise> pikhq: so for all i know he probably does hate gays.
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19:09:49 <zzo38> Christians tend to prefer to hate homosexual people
19:10:06 <alise> Homophobia isn't a preference, it's in their genes!
19:10:08 <pikhq> Love thy neighbor but hate the fags!
19:10:13 <alise> They can't change it. It's wrong to hate homophobes.
19:10:20 <alise> It's homophobiphobia.
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19:10:35 <alise> pikhq: HOW COME THE KARMEN AUTHOR USES ED /AND/ AUTOTOOLS
19:10:38 <alise> That's like ... just ...
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19:11:15 <pikhq> alise: How... And... Gah!
19:17:03 <zzo38> Do you know the System VI joke?
19:17:50 <ais523> alise: autotools really isn't as bad as people think it is
19:17:52 <zzo38> System VI is what originated the "less" command as a replacement for "more".
19:18:11 <pikhq> ais523: It's quite vomit-inducing though.
19:18:11 <ais523> and I can see a clear reason why people would go ed-and-autotools; it would be out of a desire for maximum portability
19:18:12 <alise> http://www.baltimoremd.com/technology/newunix.html ic
19:18:21 <alise> ais523: no, the author uses ed because he's a minimalist
19:18:22 <pikhq> A lot of things are much, much more so, mind.
19:18:28 <alise> ais523: http://karmen.sourceforge.net/karmen-0.13-640x480.png
19:18:38 <pikhq> For instance, I would like to *murder* Perl's build system.
19:18:39 <alise> you can tell he's an experienced ed user with the advanced command, not obvious to non-ed users
19:18:47 <alise> and that the personality creating such a minimalist wm is the kind that uses ed
19:18:53 <alise> this personality /hates autotools with a fiery passion/
19:19:53 <zzo38> Yes it is that newunix.html
19:19:55 <alise> From now on "rich text" will be more accurately referred to as "exploitive capitalist text".
19:19:58 <alise> i see no issue with this
19:20:35 <zzo38> But I don't know if a typesetting system called "KleeNeX" exists or not
19:21:03 <zzo38> But "less" certainly exists. It was originally a joke before they actually added it into GNU/Linux
19:21:11 <alise> ais523: quick, come up with a term for a lax manager who just smokes weed all day instead of bossing people about
19:21:13 <alise> (not "incompetent")
19:21:20 <alise> then my WM is a "window <that>" :P
19:21:34 <ais523> actually, no, they mostly are bosy
19:21:46 <alise> window apatheticer?
19:21:49 <alise> needs to be an -er
19:22:02 <alise> maybe it could be "window anarchy"
19:22:11 <pikhq> alise: A manager that bosses people about is a shit manager.
19:22:17 <zzo38> For the "no" command, I don't see how the program can tell whether or not the "no" is ignored? (Unless the program it sends it to receives no standard input at all)
19:22:26 <alise> managers are mostly useless though.
19:22:34 <zzo38> But it could still be done making alias "no" to mean "yes n"
19:22:35 <pikhq> alise: The point of management is to deal with the bureaucratic bullshit for the sake of those under him, not to add more bureaucratic bullshit.
19:22:40 <pikhq> Sadly, most managers suck at this.
19:22:52 <alise> And ideally of course there'd be no bureaucratic bullshit.
19:23:01 <alise> actually i'd wager most companies would do much better without a manager.
19:23:18 <pikhq> Yes, but sufficiently large organisations need bureaucracy to function...
19:23:36 <pikhq> The only realistic way to pare it down is to make the organisation small.
19:24:00 <pikhq> It's much like programs; the larger it is, the more work goes into just making the pieces fit together.
19:24:08 <alise> And large programs suck.
19:25:06 <alise> The UNIX philosophy: Down with vertical integration!
19:26:08 <oerjan> But it's All Right with horizontal
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19:28:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: alise is being nastily groanless
19:30:36 <alise> someone name my wm
19:30:46 <alise> the name must be as awesome as the wm :P
19:31:16 <alise> I'm going to. (This will not be a difficult task, as it will have almost nothing).
19:31:54 <alise> Specifically, it will give windows title bars. These title bars will have minimise, maximise and close buttons. You can click and drag a title bar to move the window. You can also move a window by alt+dragging on it. You can resize a window using the border.
19:32:06 <alise> /Maybe/ a menu launcher/switcher type dealy.
19:35:02 <oerjan> well mangled all right
19:35:08 <alise> oerjan: what is it actually
19:35:41 <Gregor> oerjan: So confused :(
19:36:23 <Gregor> oerjan: By EgoBot not functioning.
19:36:26 <Gregor> I thought I'd fixed it.
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19:36:54 <EgoBot> execve failed: OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied
19:37:12 <EgoBot> execve failed: OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied
19:37:18 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:37:20 <alise> pikhq: Convince me not to create χ Windows.
19:37:26 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
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19:38:07 <alise> pikhq: By the way... aewm has nice code.
19:38:27 <alise> I suggest you read it.
19:38:47 <alise> pikhq: Seriously. Even the GTK bits.
19:39:45 <alise> /* X, in its perpetual helpfulness, always does native borders NorthWest
19:39:45 <alise> * style. This, as usual, ruins everything. So we compensate. */
19:39:45 <alise> switch (GRAV(c)) {
19:39:45 <alise> case NorthWestGravity:
19:39:51 <alise> Fuck yeah, gravity.
19:40:42 <alise> Design of Arbitrary Greek Letter Windows:
19:40:58 <alise> A client asks the server, "what modes do you support?".
19:41:08 <alise> The server replies, possibly including a wildcard, i.e. "whatever you want".
19:41:12 <alise> The program chooses one, and tells the server.
19:41:18 <alise> The server says, "Here you go: <address>".
19:41:25 <alise> This address is graphics memory.
19:41:46 <alise> A window manager works by overriding the server for client programs, and providing an address managed by itself, which it blits to the real graphics memory.
19:41:55 <alise> Similar with mouse and keyboard and stuff.
19:41:58 <alise> This also lets you nest WMs.
19:42:04 <alise> pikhq: Find a single design flaw. I dare you.
19:42:54 <pikhq> alise: Insufficient suck.
19:43:17 <alise> ERROR -- INSUFFICIENT SUCK. GIVING UP.
19:43:26 <zzo38> I remember I once owed someone $666.00 but they didn't like 666 so they said I can pay $665.00 instead.
19:43:27 <alise> I basically stole the design from Plan 9 and Y Windows, but who cares?
19:43:40 <alise> Wait, how did you get to owing someone that much?
19:44:05 <oerjan> it was in return for their soul, clearly
19:44:11 <zzo38> alise: Don't worry about how. Some things are just more expensive than other things.
19:45:03 <pikhq> Fascinating. aewm is readable.
19:45:28 <zzo38> I have also heard some people that when they go to the store, and the total is $6.66 they will purchase one more item so that the total is not $6.66 anymore!
19:45:30 <pikhq> Lots and lots of boilerplate, but that's just GUI code for you.
19:45:31 <alise> zzo38 doesn't want us to find out about his heroin dealing operation
19:46:31 <zzo38> I don't deal with heroin. This amount had something to do with government rates, which have now increased. The government is always incompetent.
19:47:05 <zzo38> I simply had to pay a service charge to someone.
19:47:21 <zzo38> I don't know why the prices for that service are regulated by government, but apparently it is.
19:47:31 <alise> Yeah, why would the government legislate prostitution?
19:47:39 <zzo38> Also that is no longer the price.
19:47:50 <zzo38> They increased the price now.
19:47:57 <zzo38> And it has nothing to do with prostitution.
19:48:05 <alise> darn, another theory out the window
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19:48:55 <alise> pikhq: Why is reparenting so hard.
19:49:05 <pikhq> alise: Because fuck you.
19:49:17 <alise> pikhq: I'm not ready for that kind of commitment yet.
19:50:30 <zzo38> We don't need arrows at the end of the scroll-bars. Xaw doesn't have them.
19:50:45 <alise> zzo38: we don't need visible scrollbars except when scrolling generally
19:51:07 <alise> pikhq: I mean non-reparenting managers are so easy to write.
19:51:11 <alise> But I have NO IDEA how to reparent.
19:51:58 <oerjan> you repare, or you do n't
19:52:48 <zzo38> Which kind of make rules does CSPIDER need to have built-in? Currently it has: _C_FILE _CTIME _CWD _TEX_FILE _WEB_FILE (all of the predefined rules, as well as all rules that are used automatically, should have their variable names starting with underscore and all uppercase)
19:53:19 <zzo38> Is there any more that might be important?
19:53:45 <alise> zzo38: maybe you could tell us what cspider does first.
19:54:13 <alise> Usage of the works is permitted provided that this instrument is retained with the works, so that any entity that uses the works is notified of this instrument.
19:54:13 <alise> DISCLAIMER: THE WORKS ARE WITHOUT WARRANTY.
19:54:15 <alise> Well that's a simple license.
19:54:20 <alise> OSI certified, too.
19:54:54 <zzo38> It is a replacement for makefiles. So that makefiles and autoconf and such things no longer needed. It can call CTANGLE and CWEAVE automatically, as well as other programs. It reads any web file, so metamacros can still be used.
19:55:58 <zzo38> It can have command-line arguments such as +T tells it to generate C codes only but do not compile or print, +W tells it to generate printouts only but no compile C codes, +C means generate C codes and compile but no printout, +F meands just display the list of things it would do but don't actually do anything (just fake it).
19:55:58 <alise> Clearly my modified version of aewm should be called œwm.
19:56:39 <zzo38> OK call it that. It isn't ASCII though. So if someone is writing in ASCII they will need to type it using ASCII letters
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19:57:40 <alise> pikhq: Do you use virtual desktops?
19:57:46 <alise> zzo38: I'll have it oewm in the filenames.
19:58:40 <zzo38> alise: Yes, that will work
20:00:24 <alise> pikhq: I don't use them and I don't understand people who use them. :P
20:00:45 <pikhq> alise: It's being used so that bringing up my web browser is a two-key combo. :P
20:00:59 <ais523> I use them when I need to completely context-switch
20:01:13 <alise> I can bring up my browser by clicking anywhere on my screen. Statistically, I have probability 1 of hitting a browser.
20:01:15 <ais523> e.g. doing work on desktop 1, hibernating to keep it open, want to do something entirely different on desktop 2
20:01:40 <ais523> also, I tend to leave a music player minimized on desktop 2 rather than leaving it cluttering desktop 1
20:01:44 <pikhq> alise: What, do you not run other programs?
20:01:46 * alise removes all virtual desktop support from oewm.
20:01:51 <alise> pikhq: I do, but I also run an awful lot of browsers.
20:02:06 <alise> Do I need support for the Shape extension?
20:02:07 <pikhq> I have a single one.
20:02:17 <alise> Awesome, yak.st is available.
20:03:11 <alise> pikhq: Is it considered Evil to remove license headers from a fork of a program, as long as you keep the LICENSE?
20:03:15 <alise> I hate license headers with a passion.
20:03:20 <alise> But maybe people would think it's rude.
20:03:46 <pikhq> alise: License headers are there so you can have per-file copyright info.
20:03:50 <pikhq> Which is *most* relevant in a fork.
20:03:55 <ais523> they're also a legal requirement of most licenses
20:04:03 <alise> ais523: now /that/ is absolutely false and FUD
20:04:05 <ais523> you should see some of the license headers in jettyplay
20:04:13 <ais523> even BSD requires you keep them
20:04:15 <zzo38> alise: I think it is required to keep them there on already existing source files. In any new source files you make you can omit it as long as it is still clear that they follow the same license
20:04:22 <alise> ais523: no, it requires licenses are kept with the software
20:04:24 <alise> i.e. LICENSE file.
20:04:28 <ais523> it requires that you don't delete copyright notices
20:04:39 <ais523> also, ridiculous that you accuse something like that of being FUD...
20:04:41 <zzo38> The file should be called COPYING if the license is the GNU GPL.
20:05:08 <alise> fine, can I change:
20:05:12 <alise> # aewm - Copyright 1998-2007 Decklin Foster <decklin@red-bean.com>.
20:05:17 <alise> # Originally from aewm - Copyright 1998-2007 Decklin Foster <decklin@red-bean.com>.
20:05:18 <alise> # oewm - Copyright 2010 Elliott Hird.
20:05:20 <alise> ais523: i misinterpreted you
20:05:29 <alise> i thought you meant licenses required inserting those headers
20:05:30 <ais523> yes, that's fine, and the sort of thing I normally do
20:05:35 <ais523> alise: no, don't require inserting
20:05:39 <zzo38> I am making also a _PLATFORM rule to tell it which platform of the computer the compiler is being running on. It uses #ifdef for that stuff. What are some of the macros that are defined for different kind of systems?
20:05:40 <ais523> just preserving existing ones
20:05:41 <alise> that's how i interpreted
20:05:55 <ais523> anyway, people are insisting on watching bad TV in this room, I'm going home
20:06:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:06:19 <zzo38> alise: No you can't do that you have to put the "# Originally from" on a separate line and the "# aewm"... on the next line
20:06:35 <alise> zzo38: now here I think you are wrong.
20:06:41 <alise> i retained the notice of copyright
20:07:23 <zzo38> If you put it on the same line you can be accused of writing things for wrong reason
20:07:33 <alise> I'm fairly sure what you're saying has no legal merit.
20:08:12 <pikhq> I'm not a lawyer, but I have read US copyright law.
20:08:20 <zzo38> And the "# aewm"... line still has to be somewhere near the top of the file (as in, above most or all of the program codes).
20:09:09 <alise> But I /can/ prepend "Originally", of that I am almost sure.
20:09:34 <zzo38> Then put a colon after "Originally from" to make it more clear
20:09:55 <alise> What legal weight does that carry?
20:10:17 <zzo38> Maybe nothing, but you have to be careful
20:10:36 <pikhq> alise: He's talking out of his anus.
20:11:05 <alise> pikhq: Hmm, what's the sed for "replace ae with oe unless it's /* ae"? Or do I need a fancy-shmancy regexp system with (?!...)?
20:11:14 <alise> I think there's some "nothing to see here, move along" command in sed, but I'm not sure what it is.
20:11:47 <zzo38> What C preprocessor macros for other platforms, other than __CYGWIN__ and _WIN32 are?
20:12:20 <alise> zzo38: macintosh for classical Mac OS
20:13:05 <zzo38> "macintosh" and "__linux__" all in lowercase?
20:13:35 <coppro> don't use platform macros that aren't reserved
20:13:50 <coppro> because you just support the idiots behind them
20:14:17 <zzo38> ? I am just using #ifdef only
20:14:21 <zzo38> What is it for Mac OS X?
20:14:44 <coppro> zzo38: yes, but "macintosh" is not a reserved identifier. By checking for it, you legitimize the decision to adopt it as a macro
20:15:01 <coppro> which should not be done, because no compiler should predefine a non-reserved identifier
20:15:47 <zzo38> I think all platform macros should start with __ and all uppercase, but since that isn't the case, we have to do with the way it is
20:16:53 <zzo38> I don't think they are reserved words in C
20:17:39 <coppro> "All identifiers that begin with an underscore and either an uppercase letter or another underscore are always reserved for any use."
20:18:14 <zzo38> I see section 3.7.3 now.
20:18:14 <Quadrescence> oh I misinterpreted, I thought you meant that "__linux__" is a standard macro
20:18:44 <zzo38> I still think they aren't reserved words in C, though. It just means that you should not expect that you can make functions and variables with those names
20:18:58 <zzo38> Because doing so, won't work.
20:19:27 <coppro> they're also reserved as macros
20:19:34 <coppro> "macintosh", however, is not
20:19:44 <coppro> so any complier that compiles with it predefined is not compliant
20:20:12 <zzo38> coppro: I agree with that.
20:20:48 <zzo38> But since my program doesn't use the word "macintosh" in any other way, using it with #ifdef for this purpose should be safe
20:21:05 <zzo38> Since it is used nowhere else other than #ifdef
20:21:06 <coppro> but you're then legitimizing the compiler's non-compliance!
20:21:13 -!- LM7 has joined.
20:21:33 <zzo38> Of course I can add a comment (or documentation text) to the program explaining that it shouldn't be done but this is the way it has to be done anyways in this case
20:22:30 <zzo38> Currently the @<Codes for platform it is being compiled with@> section contains no documentation text or comments, but I might add a documentation text to explain about this non-compliance
20:23:14 <zzo38> @< begins a named section, which can then be transcluded into other sections.
20:23:27 <zzo38> (Usually only once, but it can be done multiple times if you might need to in some cases)
20:24:22 <zzo38> Sort of like bigger macros, but it can mave multiple lines without needed \ at the end, and you can define a named section multiple times, in which case it will use all of the definitions in order when transcluding into another section.
20:24:59 <zzo38> Now hopefully you can understand?
20:25:50 <alise> so anyone know what the command in sed is for "go to next line?
20:26:19 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
20:26:24 <zzo38> Enhanced CWEB also adds a few extra capabilities of this mechanism as well that the standard CWEB doesn't have.
20:27:24 <alise> Okay, is there seriously no way to do this with sed?
20:27:37 <zzo38> In Enhanced CWEB: @$ starts a macro parameter for the next macro being transcluded (printed as a music natural sign), @3 to include the parameter value (printed as uppercase omega), and @4 to include the number of times this macro has been previously used (printed as uppercase delta).
20:27:45 <zzo38> alise: I think there is a "go to next line" command in sed
20:27:51 <alise> zzo38: yes, but i can't find it
20:27:53 <zzo38> See the GNU sed documentation
20:28:03 <zzo38> It is explained in there
20:28:08 <alise> not as far as i can se
20:28:29 <zzo38> It is explained in the info page. The man page doesn't explain it
20:28:34 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:28:43 <alise> Where? What command?
20:29:37 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:31:20 -!- relet has joined.
20:33:13 <zzo38> What other platform C preprocessor macros are there other than __CYGWIN__ __linux__ macintosh _WIN32 ?
20:33:27 <zzo38> Is there one for Mac OS X? What is it for FreeBSD?
20:34:33 <fizzie> I think OS X defines both __APPLE__ and __MACH__.
20:35:36 <zzo38> What is the best way to test for OS X? What does __APPLE__ and __MACH__ supposed to mean individually?
20:36:01 <fizzie> #if defined(__APPLE__) && defined(__MACH__)? (Just a guess.)
20:36:33 <zzo38> I can do that, but if there is something that __APPLE__ and __MACH__ are supposed to mean individually I can check?
20:36:42 <coppro> check the compiler docs imo
20:36:48 <pikhq> zzo38: __APPLE__ means it's OS X, __MACH__ means it's just something running on Mach.
20:36:56 <pikhq> And is defined by many, many things.
20:37:06 <zzo38> OK. Is just checking __APPLE__ good enough?
20:37:07 <pikhq> Mach was a popular microkernel for a while, you see.
20:37:40 <fizzie> __APPLE__ is defined on pre-X Mac OS versions too, I believe.
20:37:41 <zzo38> I do not care much about the kernel as long as the system works in the same way, that stuff can be compiled on it in the same way.
20:37:50 <fizzie> (Not that you're very likely to run across any.)
20:37:59 <pikhq> Yeah, __MACH__ is not very relevant.
20:39:04 <fizzie> You do need both if you want to avoid matching pre-X Mac OS. I think. I don't have a MPW installation I could check what it defines.
20:39:31 <pikhq> Pre-X Mac OS is a pain to support anyways.
20:39:34 <alise> #if defined(__APPLE__) && !defined(macintosh)
20:39:43 <alise> os x may not always be basde on mach after all
20:39:46 <alise> but it will always be apple :P
20:40:25 <zzo38> I believe programs compiled for Mac OS X use the GNU C compiler. I think GNU C compiler is probably included with Mac OS X. Although you need the Xcode program to write any proper software for Mac OS X that isn't a standard UNIX software
20:40:43 <zzo38> OK, so is your way the best way? Probably it is better
20:41:35 <zzo38> Currently I have Cygwin, Linux, Macintosh classic, Mac OS X, Win32.
20:41:42 <zzo38> I don't have FreeBSD listed in there yet.
20:43:04 <fizzie> The headers seem to get __FreeBSD__ defined.
20:43:17 <fizzie> According to http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/porters-handbook/porting-versions.html anyhow.
20:43:28 <zzo38> Are there any other systems that should be included in this list?
20:43:32 <fizzie> "__FreeBSD__ is defined in all versions of FreeBSD."
20:45:47 <zzo38> Are there any other rule variables that should be predefined? So far I have: _C_FILE _CTIME _CWD _PLATFORM _TEX_FILE _WEB_FILE
20:47:05 <zzo38> _WEB_FILE is mostly useful for if you need the file to point to itself, in case it is a program consisting of a single file, that you can compile with no other modules (other than possibly system libraries)
20:47:57 <zzo38> _CTIME just specifies the date/time of compiling.
20:48:37 <alise> pikhq: Should I remove virtual desktops from my amazing WM, do you think, or leave them for the sad, confuse dpeople who use them?
20:48:37 <zzo38> Maybe I can add a option +A to update all files even if it is already up to date
20:49:55 -!- LM7 has quit (Quit: Courage is your greatest present need.).
20:50:41 <zzo38> Maybe & # > prefix to tell it processing certain rules only in certain modes: & for tangle, # for weave, > for compile
20:51:10 <pikhq> alise: You should add all features.
20:51:22 <zzo38> Rules can have other prefixes as well: + only if a certain rule variable is defined, - if it is not already defined
20:52:49 <zzo38> And then some rule variables starting with _ and uppercase, but not predefined. These are used by CSPIDER to read and do stuff with it, such as what C compiler to use and what directory the CTANGLE and CWEAVE are in, and so on. They can be defined in a system include file _make.wi
20:53:43 <alise> pikhq: On a scale of 1 to 100, how incorrect is Œxcellent?
20:53:50 <alise> "oewm -- An Œxcellent Window Manager"
20:54:08 <alise> pikhq: Good; I'll use it.
20:54:11 <zzo38> I don't know. I don't think it is a real word. But you are not required to use real words if you prefer to make up words
20:55:24 <alise> Window managers shouldn't put their config files in /etc/X11/, should they?
20:57:54 <pikhq> If you do that you shall be reassigned to duty in Siberia, comrade!
20:58:11 <alise> Okay, things I need to do: Add more butans. Make alt+drag work. Add window borders.
21:08:13 <alise> Oh, and make it click-to-focus.
21:09:08 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:09:18 <alise> Actually, this is a pain.
21:09:25 <alise> pikhq: Give me the motivation to just Write My Own.
21:10:11 <pikhq> alise: Motivation injection, AWAY
21:10:24 <alise> pikhq: I meant messages of support.
21:14:20 <alise> I'd call it flwm but that's taken.
21:15:25 <pikhq> alise: You should be paid to just rewrite all of everything.
21:16:06 <alise> pikhq: Are you hiring?
21:16:06 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:16:40 <alise> wm upside down is mw
21:16:57 <alise> pronounced "mu", like micro
21:17:03 -!- wareya has joined.
21:17:40 <pikhq> Except more upside-down.
21:21:37 <alise> why is xfontsel so useless?
21:24:28 <alise> argh what is that fixed bitmap font called
21:25:29 <alise> you know the one i mean
21:25:40 <alise> http://karmen.sourceforge.net/karmen-0.13-640x480.png
21:25:45 <alise> in the menu and title bars
21:28:35 <alise> pikhq? do you know?
21:28:52 <alise> it's that font everyone uses :P
21:33:41 <alise> is there a reason other than windows that nobody uses .c++?
21:34:30 <zzo38> alise: I don't know. I think .cpp is used instead. Although sometimes .cxx is used but .cpp is supposed to be the standard today, I think.
21:36:30 <alise> .cc is quite common too...
21:37:27 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/HeNQ
21:41:13 <myndzi> alise: a disinclination to use symbols in filenames?
21:41:22 <myndzi> i know i'd choose letters over most symbols
21:41:30 <myndzi> excepting maybe _ and -
21:43:36 -!- p_q has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:44:39 <zzo38> I have seen programs which use two ^ signs with a section sign in between, as the extension for its files.
21:45:10 <zzo38> As well as with a paragraph sign in between, and one with a ampersand in between.
21:45:15 <Sgeo> Isn't .C used occasionally [as distinct from .c]
21:45:25 <oerjan> what is a section sign
21:45:33 <alise> oerjan: that's the S thing
21:45:36 <myndzi> zzo38: i suppose there's no accounting for some people's taste
21:45:40 <zzo38> Sgeo: Sometimes. But in my opinion it should not be used
21:45:56 <oerjan> alise: §? i thought _that_ was paragraph
21:46:22 <zzo38> oerjan: No that is a section sign
21:46:31 * Sgeo has forever associated that symbol with SimCity
21:46:32 <myndzi> paragraph is the backwards P with two lines
21:46:54 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C2%A7
21:47:00 <zzo38> See? It is section sign.
21:47:11 <Sgeo> It's the simolean sign!
21:47:49 <alise> pikhq: WHY DO YOU HAVE TO WRITE "LongThing *foo = new LongThing(...)"
21:47:55 <alise> WHY NOT "LongThing *foo = new(...)".
21:48:17 <Sgeo> According to wiki, "Simoleon". Although I was caught vaguely off-guard by that being notable
21:49:01 <oerjan> zzo38: ah i see. it's called paragraf in norwegian, and apparently swedish http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraftecken (no norwegian wp page)
21:49:02 <pikhq> alise: LongThing *foo = new OtherLongThing(...)
21:49:18 <alise> pikhq: That can still be supported but DAMMIT.
21:49:18 <pikhq> Don't you hate their solution to polymorphism?
21:49:37 <Sgeo> var foo = new LongThing(...);
21:49:41 <pikhq> Why can't it be "foo = new LongThing(...)"?
21:50:33 <alise> * "none" - This is the default look-n-feel which resembles old Windows (95/98/Me/NT/2000) and old GTK/KDE
21:50:33 <alise> * "plastic" - This scheme is inspired by the Aqua user interface on Mac OS X
21:50:33 <alise> * "gtk+" - This scheme is inspired by the Red Hat Bluecurve theme
21:50:37 <alise> AnMaster: an answer
21:50:48 <zzo38> pikhq: I think C++0x might be able to do that
21:51:05 <zzo38> But I don't use C++ or C++0x, so I don't quite know
21:52:03 <oerjan> pikhq: confusing declaration and assignment is bad for scoping
22:00:29 <pikhq> oerjan: Assignment? Assignment?
22:00:38 <pikhq> What is this "assignment"?
22:01:07 <oerjan> pikhq: object oriented language usually have that
22:11:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
22:13:38 <alise> Iain B. Findleton has created a Tcl binding to the Fltk widget set, which is similar in nature to Tk, but is not directly Tk. He advertises, "An Fltk script is about 20 percent [!] the size of a Tk script for the same kind of functionality."
22:13:42 <alise> Tempting... very tempting.
22:14:04 <Gregor> FLTK is somewhere between terrible and awesome.
22:14:12 <alise> Gregor: So is everything XD
22:14:15 <Gregor> Where exactly varies on a minute-to-minute basis.
22:14:22 <alise> Gregor: FLTK is definitely awesome apart from it being C++.
22:14:30 <alise> If it was something other than C++, it would be awesome.
22:14:38 <alise> Not with the default scheme, mind.
22:14:44 <alise> But the "GTK+" scheme makes it look good.
22:16:42 <AnMaster> I remember bluecurve. Hated it.
22:16:50 <alise> AnMaster: But my screenshot is nicer than bluecurve.
22:16:57 <alise> In fact it's nothing like BlueCurve.
22:17:35 <pikhq> alise: So, it's got a Tk like binding but simpler? Awesome.
22:17:38 <alise> In fact all FLTK needs is to be written in C and I'd use it for everything :P
22:17:41 -!- p_q has joined.
22:17:45 <alise> pikhq: http://wiki.tcl.tk/1826
22:17:47 <pikhq> Tk in Tcl, BTW, is like the best GUI API ever.
22:18:02 <pikhq> It lacks bullshit! It completely lacks it!
22:18:07 <alise> Bitrot, though. Last release 107 days ago.
22:18:12 <alise> pikhq: Except for the actual interfaces produced.
22:18:16 <alise> Which have great amounts of bullshit.
22:18:19 <alise> Also, "pack" is bullshit.
22:18:27 <pikhq> alise: Thus why I'm specifying the *API*.
22:18:33 <pikhq> Pack is just one of the layout managers.
22:18:51 <pikhq> There's also grid and place.
22:18:54 <alise> pikhq: And apart from Ttk, which requires STUPIDLY PREFIXING EVERYTHING whereas it should just /be in place of the old widgets/.
22:19:06 <pikhq> alise: Yes, that's fucking retarded.
22:19:33 <alise> I do note that Tk should really be separate from Tcl, though.
22:19:42 <alise> I mean, I get the historical reasons, but bindings suck because they have to run Tcl and shit.
22:19:52 <alise> And nobody really likes Tcl any more. pikhq: do you even like Tcl any more?
22:20:00 <pikhq> I still do like Tcl.
22:20:06 <alise> Okay, but you're crazy.
22:20:28 <pikhq> It's one of the more flexible languages when it comes to metaprogramming.
22:20:32 <alise> In the game of "one datatype to rule them all", strings come not just last, but in infinitieth place.
22:20:57 <pikhq> There's a lot of things Tcl sucks at, though.
22:21:02 <pikhq> Not much of a general-purpose language.
22:21:58 <alise> As far as I'm concerned Tcl is just like Scheme except it rapes lexical scope with hideous abominations like uplevel and doesn't have a proper data type :P
22:22:42 <pikhq> Could fix it all and still count as Tcl. :P
22:22:55 <pikhq> ... Oh, wait. The string rewriting stuff is the *definition* of Tcl.
22:22:59 <pikhq> Can fix the scope though.
22:23:17 <alise> Yeah, but *Scheme is that definition of Tcl applied to a data structure that actually makes sense*.
22:23:47 <alise> Sure, Scheme relies on macros and special forms to do the {} "quoting", but you could easily just pass it all as (quote ...).
22:24:27 <alise> pikhq: Can I pay you to write a WM that doesn't suck?
22:25:00 <alise> [[We spent the first hour gabbing about all sorts of political and organizational issues of a fairly boring and mundane nature. Partway through, Jon Orwant comes in, and stands there for a few minutes listening, and then he very calmly walks over to the coffee service table in the corner, and there were about 20 of us in the room, and he picks up a coffee mug and throws it against the other wall and he keeps throwing coffee mugs against the other wall, and h
22:25:00 <alise> e says "we are fucked unless we can come up with something that will excite the community, because everyone's getting bored and going off and doing other things".]]
22:25:28 <alise> [[And he was right. His motivation was, perhaps, to make bigger Perl conferences, or he likes Perl doing well, or something like that. But in actual fact he was right, so that sort of galvanized the meeting. He said "I don't care what you do, but you gotta do something big." And then he went away.
22:25:28 <alise> Don't misunderstand me. This was the most perfectly planned tantrum you have ever seen. If any of you know Jon, he likes control. This was a perfectly controlled tantrum. It was amazing to see. I was thinking, "should I get up and throw mugs too?"]]
22:27:01 <alise> http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/archives/img/2003_08/p6_cover.jpg best animal ever
22:29:38 <alise> "Everything about Perl 6 has been a soap opera, from mugs being thrown in meetings, to the Pugs lead developer getting a gender change and then disappearing, to Rakudo Star being hyped endlessly well before it has been released."
22:29:40 <alise> that should be made
22:34:23 <Gregor> I love the ... mystery animal.
22:35:16 <alise> Deersnakecamelbutterflychameleonchicken.
22:35:37 <alise> Ceerflymelekenake.
22:40:24 <Gregor> alise: Where is that quote from?
22:40:35 <alise> http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/40451
22:40:41 <alise> or the soap opera one?
22:40:50 <alise> in other news, Jon Orwant is now my hero :P
22:40:54 <alise> when in doubt, throw cups at wall
22:43:03 <alise> Ilari: go into nutrition smartass mode plz http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/06/04/humanfood/ :-D
22:43:15 <alise> Gregor: the rest of the comment was just boring "perl is irrelevant blah" shit
22:43:19 <alise> it's just from reddit
22:43:28 <alise> audrey tang really did change gender though
22:43:45 -!- Madk has joined.
22:43:48 <alise> and perl 6 would make a hilariously bad soap opera
22:44:16 <Madk> I wrote an esoteric programming language, and I'd like some feedback if that's ok
22:44:48 <alise> put it on the wiki -- http://esolangs.org
22:44:58 <alise> don't worry if you don't think it's very good, the wiki is basically a repository of crap anyway :)
22:45:03 <alise> (put it on after telling us, of course)
22:45:03 <Madk> Information is at this forum post: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13945.0
22:45:15 <alise> what is it with tigsource that generates so many esolangs?
22:45:42 <Madk> It's based a lot on 6052 assembly.
22:45:53 <alise> "Out of curiosity, what are you using/ what method are you using that makes them so easy to make?" ;; heh
22:45:57 <alise> How do I shot interpreter.
22:46:06 <Madk> last post on the page
22:46:36 <alise> that zip, does it contain source code or just a binary?
22:46:52 <alise> almost nobody here runs windows, so it should probably be the former
22:47:06 <alise> indeed just binary
22:47:15 <Ilari> alise: Ugh. "Single food that has everything you need" is way difficult. And worse yet, it varies a bit from person to person.
22:47:17 <Madk> I'll include the source shortly
22:47:35 <alise> Madk: how soon's shortly? we can't comment on it until you do :)
22:47:56 <Madk> In about 30 seconds :P
22:48:30 <Madk> ok, download it from the same link
22:48:31 <alise> Ilari: some of the people in the comments are suggesting monkey feed :-P
22:48:40 <Madk> there's now a "source" folder.
22:49:11 <Madk> It's written in BlitzMax - there's a free compiler demo, but it costs $80.
22:49:19 <Madk> the full compiler, I mean
22:49:22 <Madk> demo is free :P
22:49:40 <alise> source isn't there for me
22:49:47 <alise> oh. i was assuming C
22:50:09 <Madk> There should be a source folder in the download
22:50:11 <alise> unexpectedly, it seems to have a linux version.
22:50:14 <Ilari> alise: And it also depends on amount of excercise you are getting. If you are doing high excercise, you need loads of energy but (relative to energy) less other nutrients. But if you are doing low excercise, sure you could just use UCPs to deal with the excess energy, but that's not exactly healthy to do a lot, and worse yet, the food needs to be more nutrious w.r.t. energy content.
22:50:15 <alise> Madk: indeed; there isn't
22:50:29 <Madk> alise: yeah, it's got mac, win, and linux
22:50:36 <alise> Ilari: i'm just absorbing all this knowledge
22:50:49 <alise> Ilari: http://www.angryman.ca/monkey.html comments on this?
22:50:52 <Sgeo> Whee, another thing that's broken is the browser's ability to tell FoxIt to load a PDF
22:51:11 <alise> "Monkey-like Attributes: considerable body hair" :-)
22:51:16 <Madk> I just downloaded it myself and there's the source right there.
22:51:26 <Madk> from http://floatation.webs.com/M-Code.zip right?
22:52:02 <Madk> perhaps just try again? Maybe the file hadn't updated by the time you hit the link.
22:52:04 <alise> Mood: a touch manic
22:52:05 <alise> Poop: still regular, still smelly
22:52:05 <alise> Monkey-like Attributes: moderate desire to fling poop
22:52:22 <alise> Madk: there it is.
22:52:55 <alise> "SuperStrict". Makes me wonder what plain "Strict" is.
22:53:24 <alise> Madk: So basically it's a mini assembly with symbols for command names, yeah?
22:53:32 <Ilari> alise: Well, the ranges for nutrients are so wide that one could assume low excercise (just some extra nutrients in high-energy case).
22:53:42 <alise> "Poop: problematic"
22:54:06 <alise> Madk: Except with ... strings, inexplicably.
22:54:29 <alise> Wow, it has file support. Talk about some high-powered assembly.
22:54:53 <Ilari> Yeah, low soluble fiber and low MCTs tend to do nasty things to ones digestion.
22:54:57 <Madk> alise: Nomral means you don't have to declare variables before usage. They default to 0, or in the case of strings, "". Strict forces you to declare your variables, but not their type, which is detected by the compiler automatically. SuperStrict forces you to also specify int, byte, short, string, an object class, etc.
22:56:01 <Madk> alise: also, string support isn't very robust. It's hardly any more than BrainF*ck's support.
22:57:10 <alise> Madk: Brainfuck has no string support.
22:57:55 <Madk> that's the extent of M-Code, except you can define the two strings in memory pre-runtime
22:58:08 <Madk> using plain text
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22:58:33 <Madk> the hello world example shows it well
22:58:50 <Madk> the symbols H, e, l, etc. simply represent those ASCII codes.
22:59:04 <Madk> That's why [65] and A are interchangable
23:00:05 <Madk> The only discernment between command and argument is position.
23:00:41 <Ilari> alise: About that experiment, it seems that the food is deficent in something... I think it is designed for digestive system far beyond human one...
23:01:11 <Madk> ilari: what exactly are you talking about? :P
23:01:16 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:01:28 <Ilari> Madk: http://www.angryman.ca/monkey.html
23:01:49 <alise> Ilari is our resident person who knows everything about nutrition that nutritionists don't.
23:01:56 <alise> That's his official title.
23:02:10 <Ilari> alise: Hey, I'm not a biochemist.
23:02:27 <alise> Yes, but we don't have a biochemist.
23:02:29 <alise> So we'll settle for you.
23:03:39 <Ilari> When it comes to real hard questions, like: "What in diet causes all the 'diseases of civilization'", I really do not know.
23:04:46 <Madk> So.. I suppose I'll be putting M-Code on the wiki?
23:05:26 <Ilari> BTW: the extra energy to run the human brain (compared to other primates) is taken from digestive system. Human digestive system is quite bad.
23:06:10 <alise> Ilari: Is it necessarily true that diet causes all disease? One issue with it being true is that it's plainly false.
23:06:34 <alise> I suggest we implant a monkey digestive system into a human. :-)
23:08:01 <Ilari> alise: "Diseases of civilization" are quite specific group of diseases (through these appear to include previously unknown diseases). And these diseases appear to be quite strongly linked to diet (what exactly in it is not known).
23:09:07 <Ilari> alise: There's a lot of diseases that are not "diseases of civilization".
23:09:37 <alise> Ilari: Ah, I didn't know that name for it.
23:09:39 <pikhq> Civilization itself has only really changed our levels of physical activity, our exposure to toxic chemicals, and our diet...
23:09:55 <pikhq> So, really, "diseases of civilization" could only possibly come from those.
23:10:24 <alise> Ilari: So, just out of curiosity, what's your basic recommendations for diet from what you know?
23:12:24 <Ilari> Well, my recomendations (based on my current knowledge): avoid grains, avoid soft fats avoid sugar.
23:13:07 <Ilari> Those tend to be the strongest suspects.
23:13:18 <Sgeo> ...avoid grains?
23:13:22 <alise> And prefer? (as in opposite to avoid)
23:13:29 -!- nooga has joined.
23:13:35 <Sgeo> Is that for everyone, or just overweight people?
23:13:45 <alise> Sgeo: presumably everyone
23:14:05 <Ilari> Well, overweight people have additional considerations.
23:14:13 * Sgeo is underweight
23:14:40 <Ilari> Sorry, don't know ways to increase body fat that aren't dangerous...
23:15:11 <Ilari> Oh yeah, and avoid soy too.
23:15:35 <alise> Ilari: So are there any specific foods to prefer? I'd assume there must be, since just eating random stuff that aren't the things to avoid seems very stupid.
23:16:02 <Sgeo> Used to drink a lot of Ensure when I was young. It was practically my lunch every day
23:16:11 <Sgeo> I think Ensure uses soy
23:16:11 <Ilari> There are some people that when presented with "fattening" foods don't get fat, they get type 2 diabetes.
23:16:37 <alise> Ilari will not reveal the secret of what to eat!
23:16:45 <Ilari> Well, there are ways to make soy and grains edible...
23:16:48 <Sgeo> What's wrong with grains?
23:17:09 <nooga> isn't Ensure that vanilla flavd powder?
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23:17:41 <Ilari> Sgeo: Toxins and antinutrients. And besides, they aren't that good in minerals and vitamins.
23:18:09 <alise> nooga: no, ensure is a "nutritionally balanced drink"
23:18:15 <alise> (i was forced to go on it recently)
23:18:19 <Sgeo> So, a box of pasta a day isn't healthy?
23:18:22 <alise> it tastes disgusting and probably isn't all that well-balanced.
23:18:35 <Sgeo> alise, I loved the taste, iirc
23:18:48 <nooga> yuck, replacement for food
23:18:51 <alise> maybe it tastes better when you're doing it voluntarily.
23:18:55 <alise> nooga: not everyone enjoys food.
23:19:08 <alise> nooga: you're probably killing yourself with what you eat (at least based on my impression of your personality)
23:19:10 -!- alise has left (?).
23:19:12 -!- alise has joined.
23:19:13 <nooga> but food is tasty, I love to eat
23:19:20 <alise> not everyone does.
23:19:25 <alise> and you're probably not eating very well, either
23:19:26 * Sgeo would love for there to be a drink that he could drink a certain number of times a day and not need to eat anything else
23:19:57 <alise> I like eating some things, but I'd be fine with being kept healthy and not feeling hungry, then having eating be a thing I do for pleasure.
23:20:14 <nooga> alise: I like mediterranean cuisine
23:20:14 <Sgeo> Also, I think I should start taking vitamins. I know the statement that people who eat properly don't need vitamin suppliments, but I don't think I eat properly
23:20:29 <alise> Sgeo: multivitamins are harmful
23:20:38 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me of one story one doctor told: Patient came to him and thought he (the patient) was underweight and wanted to gain weight. Well, the doctor prescribed drink that had 100g of fat per drink, one drink per day. Well, turns out the plan didn't work (but didn't go horribly wrong)...
23:20:40 <alise> and if not harmful, useless.
23:20:41 <nooga> so olives, tomatoes, white cheese, white bread, pasta, seafood, pork
23:20:49 <alise> therefore do not take multivitamins.
23:21:07 <Sgeo> useless period, or useless for people who eat properly?
23:21:25 <alise> See the multiple large studies cited in “Vitamin Pills: A False Hope?”; note that at least 3 studies showed increased disease & mortality rates associated with multivitamin usage, and Wikipedia mentions a few downbeat reports & commissions.↩]]
23:21:26 <alise> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/17/health/17well.html?_r=1
23:21:31 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multivitamin#Evidence_against
23:21:52 <alise> Sgeo: tl;dr useless, can be harmful. Don't bother.
23:22:03 <Ilari> And why didn't that plan work: Because fat isn't fattening.
23:22:10 <alise> Ilari: and the doctor didn't know this?
23:22:24 <alise> Ilari: he should suffer severe repercussions...
23:22:58 <Ilari> alise: Well, he asked some biochemist afterwards why that didn't work. The biochemist was baffled too.
23:23:09 <Sgeo> "However, the report noted that multivitamins have beneficial effects in people with poor nutritional status..."
23:23:20 <Sgeo> Although I guess I should read citations for stuff like this
23:23:27 <zzo38> I looked at the IOCCC makefiles. It includes a rule "love" that writes "not war?" on the screen
23:23:51 <Sgeo> zzo38, what's self-contradictory about the Free World License?
23:24:07 <alise> Sgeo: why is it that whenever you ask a question, you have one answer in mind and are only looking for affirmation of this answer, while ignoring contrary evidence?
23:24:10 <Ilari> alise: Well, as said, the experiment didn't apparently do anything good nor anything bad.
23:24:27 <nooga> Ilari: yep, my mom eats fat things and avoids carbohydrates and she's thin
23:24:54 <alise> Ilari: yeah, but that kind of incompetence
23:25:04 <alise> everyone knows it's carbs that causes fat.
23:25:21 <zzo38> Sgeo: A few things are. But it contains various stupid things that won't work very well (regardless of whether or not the definition of "Free Platform" is relaxed or not)
23:25:44 <zzo38> The license is incompatible with itself.
23:26:10 <alise> [[ Linda is 31 years old, single, outspoken and very bright. She majored in philosophy. As a student, she was deeply concerned with issues of discrimination and social justice, and also participated in antinuclear demonstrations.
23:26:10 <alise> What is the probability that Linda is:
23:26:10 <alise> (b) a bank teller and active in the feminist movement]]
23:26:24 <alise> Answer. (Do not say why you chose an answer in case you bias other people.)
23:26:31 <Sgeo> I've seen it before
23:26:49 <alise> Then don't answer.
23:27:04 <zzo38> I don't know the answer.
23:27:13 <alise> zzo38: But what do you think the answer is?
23:27:24 <zzo38> I don't know! I will just guess:
23:27:36 <alise> 42 isn't a valid probability and there are two questions.
23:27:38 <zzo38> I just have to make a wild guess because I don't know how to figure out the answer
23:27:40 <Sgeo> I think the question should ask if one is liklier than the other
23:27:43 <Ilari> But the fact that human digestive system is crap doesn't mean one can't do well with wide variety of diets. Well, at least if one gets all the needed energy, amino acids and other micronutrients and doesn't eat a lot of stuff that is 1) too hard to digest or 2) Messes with metabolism.
23:28:00 <zzo38> OK fine the answer is "c"
23:28:07 <zzo38> (Of course that is not a valid answer either)
23:28:07 <alise> zzo38: the whole point is your intuition; you don't have to say e.g. "0.75"
23:28:22 <alise> just things like ">50%" "a bit more than the other one" "a bit less"
23:28:57 <Madk> Whoopiedoo http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/M-code
23:29:05 <zzo38> These are not the kind of things I know about
23:29:10 <nooga> if P_a = 0.1 then even if P_feminist = 0.99, it comes out that P_b < 0.1
23:29:14 <zzo38> So I really have no way to even guess an answer
23:29:29 <zzo38> nooga: Yes that is
23:29:37 <alise> nooga: remember when I said "don't give reasoning"?
23:29:52 <alise> that's because explaining it stops me measuring how many people here get it wrong :P
23:30:02 <alise> many many people get it wrong IRL, but the type here is more intelligent, so...
23:30:03 <Ilari> Hunter-Gatherer diets vary from almost zero-carbohydrate and super-high-fat diets to low-fat diets.
23:30:13 <zzo38> Of course I saw that too, that P_b <= P_a
23:30:23 <zzo38> But that doesn't tell me what the actual numbers are
23:30:23 <alise> zzo38: A lot of people IRL say P_b > P_a.
23:30:31 <zzo38> Most likely P_b < P_a
23:30:33 <alise> Because they think "oh, sounds feministy from the description; probably b then"
23:30:47 <alise> Ilari: Ooh... I have an awesome idea... you know the miracle fruit?
23:30:50 <Sgeo> Ilari, is a box of pasta + some parmesan cheese a day out of the question?
23:31:00 <alise> Ilari: The one that makes everything taste sweet afterwards.
23:31:16 * Sgeo has never tried it, sadtly
23:31:16 <Ilari> Sgeo: Depends on what kind of pasta...
23:31:26 <alise> Ilari: If it has little to no nutritional effect (low sugar content), you could make any diet pleasant by simply eating it before not-so-nice-tasting foods.
23:31:27 <Sgeo> Ilari, pasta varies in more than shape???
23:32:52 <Ilari> Useful test to know what kind of carbs one can't eat: Measure the peak blood glucose after meal. Don't eat foods that cause it to rise too high.
23:33:31 <Sgeo> Not sure how I'd get my hands on such equipment, I'm not a diabetic
23:33:39 <Sgeo> [as far as I know]
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23:34:24 <Ilari> alise: Oh, and milk you drink (if you drink milk) is probably whole mik?
23:35:45 <alise> Ilari: Indeed; bad, I presume?
23:36:03 <alise> I don't drink much milk usually, but the unit are demanding I do, and of course whole milk they demand.
23:36:10 <alise> GLORIOUS PROTEIN AND CALCIUM.
23:36:37 * Sgeo would like to see a source for Ilari's claims other than Ilari, tbh
23:36:58 <nooga> i think that milk is not too good for older mammals
23:38:37 <pikhq> nooga: Being Germanic, mwahahah I can digest milk still.
23:39:03 <alise> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▄ ▄▄▄ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
23:39:04 <alise> █ ▄▄▄ █ ▄▄▀█ █ ▄▄▄ █
23:39:04 <alise> █ ███ █ █▀ ▄▀ █ ███ █
23:39:04 <alise> █▄▄▄▄▄█ ▄▀█▀█ █▄▄▄▄▄█
23:39:04 <alise> ▄▄▄▄ ▄ ▄▄▄██▄ ▄▄▄ ▄
23:39:04 <alise> ▀▄▄ ██▄ ▀▄█▄▀█ ▄▀▀▀▄█
23:39:06 <alise> ▀ ████▄ █▀▀▀▄ ▄▄▀▀ ▀▄
23:39:08 <alise> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▀▄▄▀▀▀▄ █ ▀ ▀
23:39:10 <alise> █ ▄▄▄ █ █▄ ▀█ █▄███
23:39:12 <alise> █ ███ █ █ ▄█▀▄▄ ▀█▀
23:39:14 <alise> █▄▄▄▄▄█ █ ██▄███▀ ▄ ▀
23:39:59 <alise> pikhq: it's a QR code!
23:40:26 <coppro> nah, you got some of the spacing wrong
23:41:02 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:41:02 <nooga> but should it be displayed white on black or vice versa?
23:41:12 <pikhq> alise: Any reason for the QR code?
23:41:14 <alise> coppro: not on a monospaced font
23:41:17 <alise> coppro: i used a proper generator
23:41:21 -!- augur has joined.
23:41:25 <alise> nooga: black on white
23:41:28 <coppro> alise: Yes, in a monospaced font
23:41:29 <alise> pikhq: http://www.asciiqr.com/
23:41:41 <alise> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▄ ▄ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
23:41:41 <alise> █ ▄▄▄ █ ▀▄ ▀ █ ▄▄▄ █
23:41:41 <alise> █ ███ █ ▀ ▄█▄ █ ███ █
23:41:41 <alise> █▄▄▄▄▄█ █▀█ █ █▄▄▄▄▄█
23:41:41 <alise> ▄▄▄▄▄ ▄▄▄▄▀▀█▄ ▄ ▄ ▄
23:41:42 <alise> ▀▄▀ █▄▄ █▄▀▄ ▀▄▄▄▄▀
23:41:44 <alise> █▀█▀▄█▄▀ ▄ ▄ ▄ ▀█ █ ▄
23:41:46 <alise> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ █ ▀▀█▀█▄ ▀ ▄▀
23:41:48 <alise> █ ▄▄▄ █ ▄▀█▀█▀▀▄ ▀▄ ▀
23:41:48 <Ilari> ASCII? That looks more like unicode... :-)
23:41:50 <alise> █ ███ █ █▀ ▄▀▄ ▀▄▄█
23:41:52 <coppro> the second line is off
23:41:52 <alise> █▄▄▄▄▄█ ██▄▄ ▄ ▀█▄█▄
23:41:56 <alise> maybe your unicode font sucks.
23:42:00 <alise> the page mentions so
23:42:17 <alise> coppro: well, the issue is not mine.
23:42:21 <coppro> the second line has the right-hand box dedendted
23:42:22 * Sgeo growls at Ilari and coppro's interruption
23:42:23 <alise> and it is fine on the site
23:42:31 <alise> your unicode font sucks
23:42:42 <alise> Sgeo: interruption of what?
23:42:42 <coppro> it does look fine on the site to me
23:42:55 <Sgeo> The first one said Hello, world! in case anyone cared
23:42:56 <coppro> no, alise, it is fixed-width
23:43:00 <Sgeo> alise, the qr code
23:43:11 <alise> coppro: then either my client or your client is doing something
23:43:24 <pikhq> alise: Appears fine here.
23:43:29 <coppro> I do not know what, though
23:44:31 <zzo38> Except this client displays blue on black, instead of black on white
23:44:38 <zzo38> But other than that it displays it OK
23:44:52 <alise> http://tinyurl.com/32gn6c4
23:45:02 <alise> (Brought to you by Abusing TinyURL + data: To Store Data Productions.)
23:45:07 <alise> http://zxing.org/w/decode.jspx might help.
23:46:37 <zzo38> Now we can rewrite this ASCII QR code in QBASIC or in machine codes for DOS computers (.COM file). And then it can run on FreeDOS
23:47:07 <zzo38> And it can be done for even displaying black text on white background, by setting the text colors on the screen
23:47:25 <alise> zzo38: Well, you can.
23:47:42 <zzo38> alise: Maybe I will
23:47:57 <alise> Why not write it in Pascal or C, though?
23:48:07 <pikhq> Man. Passing data: to TinyURL. Brilliant.
23:48:07 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:48:19 <alise> pikhq: Indeed. And also probably against every item in their TOS.
23:48:31 <alise> BTW, google "data URI kitchen" -- browser frozen atm -- for Hixie's wonderful tool.
23:48:36 <alise> Tick base64 for smaller URIs.
23:48:40 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:48:58 <coppro> alise: "may only be used for actual URLs"
23:48:59 <alise> URI-encoding The Metamorphosis: not my greatest idea.
23:48:59 <zzo38> Have you possibly seen: Gavin operating system?
23:49:00 <zzo38> This is a 32-bit multitasking operating system for x86 computers,
23:49:04 <coppro> it's not our fault if they don't know what a URL is
23:49:05 <alise> coppro: Yep; happily disregarded.
23:49:05 <pikhq> alise: Actually, their TOS is easy.
23:49:06 <zzo38> with GUI and filesystem, support for loading and executing user
23:49:09 <Sgeo> Chrome doesn't seem to like it
23:49:11 <zzo38> applications in elf binary format, with ps2 mouse and keyboard drivers,
23:49:15 <zzo38> and vesa graphics. And a command shell. And an application -
23:49:17 <coppro> data:// is a perfectly valid URL
23:49:19 <zzo38> a simple text-file viewer.
23:49:22 <pikhq> It may only be used for actual URLs and legal purposes.
23:49:28 <alise> Request-URI Too Large
23:49:28 <alise> The requested URL /chart... is too large to process.
23:49:32 <alise> FUCK YOU GOOGLE PROCESS IT BITCH.
23:49:35 <alise> pikhq: no, it isn't
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23:49:39 <zzo38> data: is a valid URL but it has to have some data after it
23:49:46 <alise> it doesn't locate a resource, therefore it is not a URL.
23:49:56 <alise> well, arguably on the boundary
23:50:03 <alise> it can be used to display a resource, but it doesn't /locate/ one
23:50:15 <zzo38> OK. It doesn't locate a resource. But it does return a resource
23:50:27 <zzo38> Consisting of the data contained in the URL/URI line
23:51:00 <zzo38> Other URL/URIs consist only of actions and have no returned file, such as telnet: and javascript:
23:51:42 * Sgeo wonders if javascript: could really be considered a URI, or if we need an even more general name
23:51:44 <zzo38> Gavin operating system must be compiled using a special C program in the IOCCC. The C program is 3.5K long but the actual operating system program is very short.
23:52:00 <Sgeo> How much more general can we get?
23:52:29 <zzo38> Javascript is not a resource at all. But a telnet session is a pointer to a computer that you can connect to using the telnet protocol.
23:52:55 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:53:01 <zzo38> They put // afterward because it is for the name (or number) of the computer, and optionally port number, to connect to, to access it.
23:53:24 <zzo38> PHP does :// for other URLs as well, but in my opinion they shouldn't.
23:54:00 <Sgeo> People like disobeying standards for U..s
23:54:46 <pikhq> X11 HAS DECIDED TO LOCK ON CAPS LOCK
23:54:56 <pikhq> NOTE THAT I DON'T HAVE CAPS LOCK TO SPEAK OF...
23:54:57 <zzo38> But file: is three slashes because the section for computer to connect to is blank. (I suppose you can still have a computer name there, in case it is a network resource or whatever that uses a standard filesystem access)
23:55:21 <coppro> btw, in the future, I'm referring to ISO standards by URI
23:57:31 <pikhq> Why the hell did it do that...
23:57:32 <zzo38> How many bits should I need to make a hypernet key? (There are different kinds of hypernet keys, DS (digital signature) and S (static data) is two of them)
23:58:35 <zzo38> Also: Is there a MIME type for HTTP responses?
23:59:22 * Sgeo wonders what a hypernet key is
23:59:57 <alise> pikhq: Because X is retarded.