00:00:08 <ais523> whereas I think of ~a*^ as the entire unit
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00:00:48 <oerjan> it's like, (~:)~* is prepending (~:)
00:02:30 <ais523> both ~* and ~a*^ have single-character abbreviations in Underlambda
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00:07:50 <oerjan> ^ul (12)S(*(~:)~a*^~):((1)S)~*~((2)S:*)~*:(~:()~)~*^(a(:^)*~(*()~)~a*^~^):^
00:07:51 <fungot> 122112122122112112212112122112112122122112122121121122122112122122112112122121122122112122122112112212112122122112112122112112212112112212211212212112212212112112212211212212112112212112122112112122121122122112122122112112122112112212212112122112112212112112212212112122112112122122112122121121122122121122122112122122112112 ...too much output!
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00:22:03 <_Madk> check out the m-code page
00:22:11 <_Madk> it's got a good few improvements
00:22:23 <_Madk> The lie is a pake.
00:22:42 <_Madk> The lie is not a pake, that would just be silly.
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00:24:05 <pikhq> Seems like we have an IRC noob.
00:24:22 <oerjan> _Madk: he has a really bad connection and keeps reconnecting all the time
00:24:28 <_Madk> I don't do IRC much
00:26:14 <ais523> it's one person using two nicks, due to having a dodgy connection
00:26:30 <ais523> because you can't connect with a nick that's busy timing out
00:26:41 <ais523> so you connect with an alternate nick, and then change back when the original times out
00:26:45 <Gregor-W> And then I said something too.
00:26:56 <oerjan> Gregor-W: no you didn't!
00:27:44 <oerjan> I CANNOT HEAR YOU LALALALALA
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00:38:12 <Gregor-W> The fact that SourceForge is #158 in the Alexa top list says a lot about either:
00:38:18 <Gregor-W> The people who use the Alexa toolbar, or
00:38:23 <Gregor-W> The people who use the web in general.
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03:07:22 <Gregor> I have an announcement!
03:07:27 <Gregor> And that announcement is:
03:07:32 <HackEgo> Congratulations! Gregor's action has brought a beautiful new baby into the world. Isn't it adorable?
03:08:04 <Gregor> We now have an obnoxious F-word profanity filter :P
03:24:47 <augur> you know of any good reads?
03:25:29 <Gregor> Guhh ... I pretty much research papers :P
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03:28:14 <augur> you're missing a verb there, Gregor
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03:28:57 <Gregor> Noes! They're my sustenance.
03:30:47 <Gregor> Also I haven't seen any really great one recently :P. PLDI this year had a few gems, Pizlo's GC paper is worth a read and the print floating point numbers one was bizarrely interesting since it should have been a ridiculous subject.
03:30:57 <Gregor> And of course Richards' JavaScript paper was awesome ;)
03:33:16 <augur> i just want some good papers :|
03:33:22 <augur> on interesting ideas
03:33:29 <augur> things with interesting ways of viewing a problem
03:33:39 <augur> especially something with great visualizations, if they're appropriate
03:33:54 <Gregor> My JS paper has great "visualizations" (read: charts :P )
03:35:21 <augur> i mean visualizations of a concept
03:35:36 <Gregor> Well, PL doesn't usually have great visualizations :P
03:35:50 <Gregor> Go read a graphics paper ;)
03:36:07 <augur> PL can have wonderful visualizations
03:36:11 <augur> doesnt always happen, but
03:36:21 <augur> Huet's zippers have a GREAT visualization, but he doesnt use it
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03:45:12 <augur> cmon, Gregor, please? :(
03:45:36 <Gregor> Huh? I gave you refs, if you don't want any of them, too bad :P
03:46:14 <augur> oh sorry, my client crashed
03:46:31 <Gregor> You responded to me :P
03:46:39 <Gregor> <Gregor> Also I haven't seen any really great one recently :P. PLDI this year had a few gems, Pizlo's GC paper is worth a read and the print floating point numbers one was bizarrely interesting since it should have been a ridiculous subject.
03:46:39 <Gregor> <Gregor> And of course Richards' JavaScript paper was awesome ;)
03:46:48 <Gregor> ^^^ Here are your references. Go read them :P
03:48:19 <augur> oh, well. thats lame
03:48:38 <Gregor> Well then pff to you! I haven't got any off the top of my head.
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07:06:15 <SgeoN1> I am seriously considering using XML. I think this is proof that C# has rotted my brain.
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09:45:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: Gah, I just debugged a bug out of cfunge-0.9.0 (at work, used the latest official release, I'm not even sure we have bzr here) -- http://pastebin.com/chmNfELi -- but it seems you already fixed that in rev 842.
09:47:56 <Deewiant> Updating software before debugging it is a good idea :-P
09:49:29 <fizzie> I don't even know where I should point bzr at to get the latest code. Launchpad?
09:53:01 <fizzie> Uhm. I updated to what I got with "bzr branch lp:cfunge", and it's broken in a different way now.
09:54:44 <fizzie> This is what I get now: http://pastebin.com/7bJ69SvM
09:55:05 <fizzie> First there were too many terminating \0s; now there's none.
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10:38:48 <Deewiant> My cfunge and ccbi both say "120 0 64 0"
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10:54:55 <fizzie> Hm. Well, like the paste says, I get "120 64 0 0" from cfunge r849, and "120 0 0 64" from cfunge 0.9.0 (not sure what revision that corresponds to); but "120 0 64 0" from an old cfunge-0.3.3.
10:57:30 <Deewiant> The obvious solution is to use ccbi
11:00:28 <fizzie> The obvious solution would be to not dabble with any silly Funge-98 code but do something more sensible instead.
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13:33:47 <fizzie> Madk: Here's a random suggestion: since the $ label = [42] syntax is not so useful -- you get the same with |$label| [42] already -- why not make it work the same way "normal" assemblers do "label: equ 42", that is, directly define the value for the label? Currently it's a bit hard to define named constants there.
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13:35:15 <Madk> Thanks for the idea
13:36:54 <fizzie> I've also been dabbling with a Funge-98 M-code interpreter. I have a parser that correctly handles the labels and such in the more complicated hello-world example -- http://sprunge.us/EcNY -- but the actual interpreter side is lacking, currently it just dumps out the initial memory contents.
13:38:29 <Madk> Well, the syntax for what you described is going to be $meaning:42
13:38:39 <Madk> as opposed to $address=42
13:38:45 <fizzie> Mm'k. That works, too.
13:39:09 <Madk> that tends to slip my mind :|
13:40:01 <Madk> my parser doesn't check for duplicate labels either
13:40:05 <Madk> maybe it should
13:41:36 <fizzie> I also don't check at the end whether all the referenced labels were actually defined; I think currently any undefined ones will end up having the value -1 when referenced to with |label|.
13:42:03 <Madk> Mine does 0 for undefined labels, but it outputs an error to the console
13:42:18 <Madk> If you don't close a [], a ||, or a // comment, it lets you know
13:42:29 <Madk> and if you call an undefined label it lets you know
13:42:41 <fizzie> Befunge is funny; I wrote that thing not more than a moment ago, and it's already starting to resemble a meaningless jumble of characters unless I try to focus.
13:42:59 <Madk> and if you attempt to write program memory to an address greater than the array size, it wraps around to the beginning but it still lets you know
13:43:23 <Madk> that's always fun :P
13:43:53 <fizzie> I mean, to pick a random line: "Vv#G70_v#+`0'g70`g700' +g2bg2a P70Lg2bG1g2a P70 <"
13:44:00 <Madk> You know the saying that if you look at code you wrote a month ago it'll be like it was written by someone else?
13:44:11 <Madk> In esoteric languages it's more like 5 minutes
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13:52:36 <Madk> fizzie: When the interpreter has finished parsing and storing the code in memory, it outputs it to a file with all comments removed before it actally runs it. Are you planning on implementing anything similar?
13:53:35 <Madk> It does also remove labels and replaces them with proper numbers
13:53:57 <fizzie> Well, I guess I could, reasonably easily.
13:54:53 <Madk> the source is in the interpreter download, so if you want to make sure you don't miss anything, you may want to check out the output function in the shared source file
13:55:58 <fizzie> I'll probably worry about compliance after I get a hello-world running.
13:59:56 <Madk> I wish I knew why the BF interpreter is so slow, everything else seems to run quite quickly :/
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14:32:33 <Madk> my 99 bottles of beer program is failing on me
14:32:53 <Madk> my string-printing code doesn't like me
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14:35:24 <fizzie> Um. The spec in the wiki has two definitions for backslash: "Handle the string in memory by -- getting it from input" and "Copy the value in the A register into both B and C".
14:36:08 <Madk> how about changing that second thing to "Y"
14:37:46 <Madk> also, just noticed
14:37:56 <Madk> the definition for @ and 0 isn't entirely accurate
14:38:02 <Madk> they add it to the end of the memory string
14:38:10 <Madk> they don't actually put it in the console
14:40:47 <Madk> fizzie: just a heads-up, I think my label code has contracted a bug. Once it's fixed or I find out I just did something stupid in my m-code, I'll be uiploading the new interpreter with the Y command and the $label:[42] stuff
14:44:45 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ echo hello.m | cfunge m-code.b98
14:44:56 <fizzie> Yay. (The first and third line are printed by my thing.)
14:45:29 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/fejI
14:45:31 <Madk> see if the quine works
14:45:39 <fizzie> Probably has several buggeries left, I'd presume.
14:45:54 <fizzie> (Also didn't do file IO or the seven more complicated arithmetical ops yet.)
14:46:47 <Madk> You didn't do &. is this intentional? It's only a logical and
14:47:23 <Madk> You haven't done D (delay by # of ms)
14:47:44 <fizzie> I don't think I can do it very well in Funge-98 without some help from the interpreter.
14:47:51 <Madk> logical, though
14:47:53 <ais523> b98 doesn't have a delay command naturally, does it?
14:47:55 <fizzie> Oh, I misread that those were bitwise ops, which are a bit tricky.
14:48:09 <ais523> in fact, I'm not even sure I know of a delay fingerprint
14:48:24 <Madk> Could you make a loop that takes appx. one ms?
14:48:34 <Madk> iterate the number of times?
14:48:44 <fizzie> ais523: I'm not sure of one either. SGNE has a sleep command, but it has a granularity of seconds.
14:48:48 <Madk> or more and divide the number by the time
14:49:16 <Madk> it's not important, I mainly put it there to help debug my scripts
14:49:37 <fizzie> The HRTI fingerprint has a high-resolution timer, I could do a loop with that.
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14:53:18 <fizzie> I'll add those logical things. The quine doesn't work since I don't clear the memory (so there's leftover crud because of the $35 jump), and anyway it'd just complain about unknown opcode "0"; should undefined ones be nops instead?
14:54:08 <Madk> It's supposed to skip over things that aren't commands
14:54:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm I remember that bug. Thanks for writing a regression test case ;P
14:55:10 <Madk> also, a comment-stripped file would give it grief since it usually counts on nops being initialized as 0
14:58:50 <Madk> fizzie: right now, according to the interpreter, the first slot in string memory when using stuff like ^ is 1, not 0. I was going to change that, but haven't got around to it yet
14:59:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw I seem to be on rev 849 locally
14:59:08 <Madk> I suppose I'll just do that not, it'll only take a second
14:59:31 <fizzie> Madk: I have most of the memory set to 32, actually, since it's the funge-space default value. I could clean a region, I guess; but I don't do any modulo arithmetics on addresses, and I can't really clean the whole fungespace row to 0. (And manually handling an offset of 32 whenever memory is being read/written isn't very much fun either.)
15:00:48 <fizzie> Ut-oh, the post office's having some silly summer schedules and closes already in an hour; and it'll take me half an hour to get there from work. Away for now, therefore.
15:01:18 <Madk> 32 can just be seen as a nop without too much issue
15:01:33 <Madk> I would expect, at least
15:01:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, please repaste that with a working pastebin, the raw link download is a html with a <pre>
15:01:51 <Madk> it wouldn't be a 0, but it'd still work most of the time
15:02:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's not *that* long, you know.
15:02:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, well use a better one in the future
15:02:38 <fizzie> And there's a "download" link in addition to the "raw" link.
15:03:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, so you say it should output 120 0 64 0 ?
15:04:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, and you said some older version did that? Do you happen to know which revision works?
15:04:40 <fizzie> Deewiant said his works.
15:04:52 <fizzie> And he claimed it was r840.
15:05:19 <Madk> why won't the beer work ._.
15:05:34 <Madk> it's not starting looking at the string in the right place
15:07:40 <Madk> for one label it starts reading before the string
15:07:46 <Madk> for the other two it starts reading after
15:08:10 <AnMaster> okay bisecting found r842 as the buggy one
15:08:43 <AnMaster> iirc that fixed another bug though
15:11:45 <Madk> why does it think my label is at 32
15:12:13 <Madk> oh, no it doesn't
15:12:21 <Madk> I think I know what's going on now
15:13:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, strangely enough G doesn't push the ending \0 it seems.
15:13:26 <AnMaster> I wonder if mycology tests with a marker on stack
15:13:31 <Sgeo> I'm suffering from the effects of C# poisoning
15:13:44 <Sgeo> I think that XML is a reasonable, human-readable way to handle something
15:16:06 <Madk> gah, now something else isn't working .-.
15:17:35 <Madk> ok, that's a bit better
15:21:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, here we go *pushes fix*
15:22:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, fix pushed, due to server side caching it may take a few minutes to update on launchpad
15:22:37 * Sgeo wonders if he should attempt to learn OCaml
15:24:10 <ais523> it ought to be better-known than it is
15:24:23 <ais523> ignore the OO stuff in it, though; as far as I know, nobody uses it
15:24:40 <AnMaster> ais523, why not go for standard ML then?
15:24:50 <Sgeo> ...so, just use it as a functional language? Why not just stick with Haskell then?
15:24:57 <ais523> OCaml's more used in industry, IIRC
15:25:00 <ais523> Sgeo: a functional/imperative language
15:25:20 <ais523> Haskell is rather clunky for imperative programming, OCaml combines it pretty seamlessly with the functional stuff
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15:33:20 <Madk> 99 bottles GET
15:33:52 <Madk> It takes up almost the entire 256 bytes, too
15:34:10 <Madk> it takes up more
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15:35:45 <Madk> / This program prints the lyrics to "99 bottles of beer".
15:35:45 <Madk> It exceeds the program memory space offered by 8-bit
15:35:45 <Madk> M-code and therefore is incompatible. //
15:35:45 <Madk> d[183]>[183]bu=G16[224]4[15]j[184]6[209]4[21]j[184]>[183]16[224]
15:35:45 <Madk> 4[30]j[184]4.:;s6[241]4)j[184]>[183]n1}[1]=76[224]4=j[184]6[273]
15:35:45 <Madk> 4=j[184]6[209]4Cj[184];sj[0]0[183]6[273]4Oj[184]6[209]4Uj[184]0[183]
15:35:47 <Madk> 6[273]4]j[184]4.:;s6[289]4hj[184]6[320]4nj[184]6[224]4tj[184]6[209]
15:35:49 <Madk> 4zj[184];s6[320]4[130]j[184]6[224]4[136]j[184]6[209]4[142]j[184]
15:35:51 <Madk> 6[320]4[148]j[184]6[224]4[154]j[184]4.:;s6[328]4[165]j[184]4c16[224]
15:35:53 <Madk> 4[174]j[184]6[209]4[180]j[184];s_d([201]<[202]#[201][192]>[0]b=[203]
15:36:01 <Madk> #[202][207]j[0]_[32]on[32]the[32]wall.[32][0][32]bottles[32]
15:36:03 <Madk> of[32]beer[0]Take[32]one[32]down,[32]pass[32]it[32]around.[32][0][32]b
15:36:05 <Madk> ottle[32]of[32]beer[0]Take[32]it[32]down,[32]pass[32]it[32]around.[32]
15:36:07 <Madk> [0]No[32]more[0]Go[32]to[32]the[32]store[32]and[32]buy[32]some[32]more
15:36:11 <Madk> that didn't work too well :P
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15:48:11 <Madk> fizzie: I just uploaded the new interpreter
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16:02:10 <cpressey> Sgeo: The catseye.tc website content is largely XML, transformed to HTML using XSL
16:02:41 <cpressey> Not that I'm claiming to be either reasonable or human, mind you
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16:20:52 <Gregor> Y'know, if you just wrote XHTML in the first place, no translation would be necessary :P
16:20:56 <AnMaster> cpressey, custom xml *may* be slightly less painful to maintain that a lot of separate html pages. Since the xsl handles the fluff. At least that is my experience from working with some such sites (none of which I initially designed, just maintained)
16:21:15 <AnMaster> of course, fixing or extending the xsl file tends to be extremely painful
16:21:38 <cpressey> Gregor: My bad, I meant to say "transformed to XHTML".
16:21:50 <AnMaster> but if it works it is less irritating than 20 separate xhtml pages
16:22:05 <AnMaster> cpressey, of course it would still be saner to just switch to gopher
16:22:20 <cpressey> AnMaster: I find it is a bit less painful. It's easier to get the end result consistent and correct.
16:22:34 <pikhq> ザ̵̧̻̭̻̫̼̘̦̝̼͔͓̦̰͕͓͋̇̾̓̄ͣ̄͒͛̏̒̏̂̿̑͒͌ͣ́́ル̧̂͗̉̑͒͏̨̣͇̦͖̭̤̥͈̰̤̮̞͔̞̭́̕ゴ ̵̨̨̮̥̜͇͓̹̲͖̣̠̙͖ͩͧ̉ͥ̓͐̒͛͘͟ͅͅ！̷͇̦͉͖̤͓̗̝̳̼̣̳͙̤̺͈͎̅̈́ͥ͋̏ͣ̔̾̆ͯ͑̈́̈ͫͦ͊͌̂́͘̕
16:22:40 <Gregor> GOOD IDEAS IN LANGUAGES, PAGE ONE PARAGRAPH ONE WORD ONE: How
16:22:49 <cpressey> AnMaster: I should figure out a way to run my old BBS software over a telnet server
16:23:14 <cpressey> It was written in Pascal for the Amiga 500. Tasty.
16:23:23 <Gregor> And it continues: about this you guys, a language engine with a bunch of parsers that dump out XML ASTs, then everything else implemented as XSL! You could even have XSL reversers that convert low-level ASTs into C!
16:24:21 <cpressey> Gregor: I was totally gonna write that
16:24:27 <Gregor> You would have an XSL file that turns classes into structs and calls, and an XSL file that turns structs into pointers and offsets, and an XSL file that turns this XML AST with pointers and offsets into assembly!
16:24:28 <pikhq> Gregor: Too much crack man.
16:24:47 <cpressey> Gregor: Uh - where did you find this?
16:26:36 <cpressey> Take out all the XSL stuff, and introduce XML only as a stopgap measure (it's an expedient interchange format that can hold ASTs, *only*), and I was totally gonna write that. Like Batchelder's 'cog' but with EBNF.
16:27:09 <cpressey> Meanwhile pikhq has grapheme-bombed my IRC client. Nice.
16:27:35 <cpressey> It looked OK, until the screen scrolled. Then, barf all over.
16:28:30 <pikhq> Hooray, poor Unicode parsing.
16:28:35 <AnMaster> <cpressey> AnMaster: I find it is a bit less painful. It's easier to get the end result consistent and correct. <-- yes, but making the xsl in the first place, or just modifying it... tends to be painful
16:28:49 <AnMaster> I wouldn't bother with it for less than, say, 10 pages
16:28:56 <cpressey> AnMaster: Granted. XSL is pain.
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16:39:34 <cpressey> pikhq: http://imagebin.org/106249
16:40:28 <ais523> is there a difference between XSL and XSLT?
16:40:49 <cpressey> ais523: Technically yes, but I can never remember what it is.
16:42:21 <pikhq> cpressey: Victory!
16:42:53 <pikhq> Also, your font for Japanese is shit incarnate.
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16:50:18 <AnMaster> I'm happy my irc client doesn't do that :P
16:50:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, "shit incarnate" <-- shouldn't d be appended at the end?
16:51:17 <cpressey> That's because English is inconsistency incarnate.
16:51:58 <AnMaster> what does incarnated mean then? my spell checking seems to accept both with and without the last letter
16:52:19 <cpressey> "Incarnate" is both adjective and verb.
16:52:40 <AnMaster> ah right. incarnated would be past tense of the verb
16:53:02 <pikhq> Also, the set phrase is "x incarnate".
16:53:07 <AnMaster> but yes it is inconsistent. A favourite example of mine is that inflammable ought to mean not flammable...
16:53:08 <cpressey> Yes, but since it means just about the same thing as the adjective, no one uses it.
16:54:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: Sure it sure. It is capable of being inflammed.
16:54:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, my client rendered that stuff on line line. Font dejavu sans mono at 9pt. Which doesn't really look good for such stuff. Not at 96 DPI or whatever this is anyway.
16:54:45 <AnMaster> no clue how that typo happened
16:55:58 <AnMaster> it works well for the languages I can actually speak though ;P
16:56:31 <pikhq> DejaVu doesn't have Japanese characters in it.
16:57:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm so system is using some other font then
16:57:31 <AnMaster> explains why those symbols look blurry
16:57:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, that ！looks like wide-char ! ?
16:57:58 <pikhq> Yeah, most Japanese fonts are pain and agony on a screen.
16:58:04 <pikhq> It is wide-char !.
16:58:04 <AnMaster> argh what happened with spacing there
16:58:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, strangely copy-and-paste renders it differently
16:58:36 <AnMaster> it looked kind of bold in your original line
16:58:42 <AnMaster> but now it looks like a normal !
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16:58:55 <pikhq> Ｄｏｎ’ｔ ｙｏｕ ｌｏｖｅ ｗｉｄｅ ｃｈａｒａｃｔｅｒｓ？
16:59:22 <AnMaster> besides they render strangely here.
16:59:36 <pikhq> ｱﾊﾞｳｯﾄ ｱｽﾞ ｳｨｰﾙﾄﾞ ｱｽﾞ ｽｨﾝ ｶﾀｶﾅ｡
16:59:45 <pikhq> (about as weird as thin katakana)
17:00:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: If you had a better font it'd render less weirdly. Here, the wide Latin glyphs render as Verdana with bizarre spacing.
17:00:49 <AnMaster> I have no clue what it renders as
17:00:58 <pikhq> (I use the Meiryo font for Japanese, and that uses Verdana's glyphs for Latin.)
17:01:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, you use non-monospace on irc? *shudder*
17:01:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, it's monospace on IRC.
17:02:03 <pikhq> When stuck into Meiryo it is.
17:02:15 <pikhq> Japanese fonts are inherently monospace.
17:03:01 <pikhq> Well, more like bispace. They have a distinction between "half-width" and "full-width" characters.
17:03:32 <pikhq> Normal Latin text is half-width, the half-width katakana are half-width, everything else if full-width.
17:03:40 <myndzi\> umop what about upside down wide characters?
17:03:47 <myndzi\> ¿ѕɹəʇɔɐɹɐɥɔ əｐɪʍ ｕʍоｐ əｐɪѕｄｎ ʇｎоｑɐ ʇɐɥʍ
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17:03:56 <myndzi> some of them, at least
17:04:10 <myndzi> also yeah, they aren't so much "wide" as they are monospaced
17:04:23 <myndzi> so i guess if you were ircing with Arial they'd look wide
17:04:30 <myndzi> but they are the same width as anything else to me, or most people
17:04:40 <myndzi> AnMaster: lol, not really
17:04:47 <pikhq> myndzi: On a terminal, they take up *two* characters' space.
17:04:51 <myndzi> the ones that are natural characters, reversed, like p/d
17:04:56 <AnMaster> <myndzi\> umop what about upside down wide characters?
17:04:59 <AnMaster> <myndzi\> ¿ѕɹəʇɔɐɹɐɥɔ əｐɪʍ ｕʍоｐ əｐɪѕｄｎ ʇｎоｑɐ ʇɐɥʍ
17:05:00 <myndzi> i used the mono width ones for because they didn't line up
17:05:21 <myndzi> i mean, the upside-down chars i picked from all over the tables didn't line up with the "regular" letters
17:05:27 <AnMaster> indicating that the second line contains something that breaks the normal monospacing of the font I use for irc
17:05:32 <myndzi> but the japanese mono-width ones did
17:06:15 <myndzi> yeah, my alias is called umop ;p i forgot the /
17:06:21 <ais523> myndzi: for me, the mono-widths look out of place, the upside-downs work fine
17:06:31 <AnMaster> myndzi, well they don't line up with other chars properly since otherwise those two lines I copied wouldn't be exactly as long
17:06:33 <myndzi> ais523: yeah, but i don't really care about for you ;D
17:06:41 <myndzi> it would annoy the crap out of me if they looked weird on my screen
17:06:45 <AnMaster> the ? lines up perfectly with ʍ
17:07:03 <myndzi> it's a definite problem with font linking
17:07:09 <myndzi> i have no idea what fonts it's pulling from
17:07:12 <AnMaster> well actually, it seems off by 2 pixels
17:07:14 <myndzi> same thing with my maze alias
17:07:21 <myndzi> sometimes the chars work properly and sometimes not
17:07:26 <myndzi> depending on which fonts are cached, i think
17:07:33 <AnMaster> try gucharmap, if you right click the symbol it shows witch font it fetches it from
17:07:49 <AnMaster> apt-get or whatever package manage you use
17:08:01 <myndzi> my package manager is windows ;p
17:08:02 <AnMaster> iirc it is part of gnome, so your distro probably have a package for it
17:08:13 <myndzi> i must be way out of place here haha
17:08:13 <AnMaster> myndzi, ah okay. Sucks to be you
17:08:23 <myndzi> you go ahead and tell yourself that :)
17:08:28 <AnMaster> well there are more windows users here I think
17:08:32 <myndzi> i don't lose any sleep over it
17:09:38 <cpressey> I'm using a distro of Windows called "Windows 7"
17:10:23 <cpressey> It's put together by an outfit that calls themselves "Microsoft"
17:16:52 * ais523 vaguely wonders how many software-related outfits call themselves "Microsoft"
17:16:59 <ais523> I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than one
17:22:37 <AnMaster> hm *ponders the effect of swapping every occurrence of the string "micro" with "macro" and vice verse*
17:22:54 <AnMaster> I guess Macrosoft Office would warn when opening files containing micros
17:23:20 <AnMaster> and you would use a macrowave oven to heat your food
17:24:56 <myndzi> makes me think of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY6kElOYcd8
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17:56:26 <Madk> took me 2 hours to make this esoteric language
17:56:35 <Madk> I'm not as happy with it as m-code
17:56:41 <Madk> but it's still pretty cool
17:57:33 <Madk> I think I want to call it "MathFuck", but that's kind of an unoriginal name
17:57:55 <Madk> it's BrainFuck with more powerful arithmatic, including floating points and negative numbers
17:58:20 <Madk> I forgot I wanted to add trig functions
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18:17:13 <Ilari> If you wanted (effectively) unimplementable esolang, one way to do it would be to put complex versions of all special functions found from standard special function reference.
18:20:29 <Madk> Factorial in my new awesome thing
18:20:30 <Madk> }[>(What number would you like to determine the factorial of?));
18:20:30 <Madk> >_}<[$>*<{]>>(Answer: ):))(Again? [1/0]))<;)]`
18:20:42 <Madk> about to put it on the wiki
18:20:50 <Madk> but I NEED A GOOD NAME <_<
18:21:39 <Madk> it's a lot like brainfuck
18:21:41 <coppro> (foo) seems like a string
18:21:45 <Madk> but it's got better math
18:22:21 <Madk> How about Grin?
18:23:26 <Madk> it can run brainfuck code if you replace the "+" with "}" and the "-" with "{"
18:23:31 <Madk> that's how similar it is :P
18:26:48 <cpressey> Gah, I will never figure out how to pronounce "Grin"
18:28:00 <cpressey> Madk: I'm being facetious. It's a hobby of mine.
18:30:47 <fizzie> Madk: Speaking of M-code, what's the difference between ; and H? Both are supposed to print the string; something in the newlines?
18:31:02 <Madk> HI is the same as ;
18:31:11 <Madk> H doesn't make a newline ono its own
18:31:38 <Madk> I made ; first then found a need for H.
18:31:44 <Madk> I was too lazy to take ; out.
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18:43:15 <Madk> grin is on the wiki
18:43:50 <Madk> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Grin
18:58:21 <Madk> (Calculate how many numbers of the Fibonacci sequence?));)
18:58:21 <Madk> >:)>}:)<<[{>$>>\<$>+:)<$<\>>$<\<<]
19:00:41 <coppro> do you have a compiler yet?
19:01:32 <Madk> an interpreter
19:01:43 <Madk> it's downloadable from the wiki page
19:01:46 <Madk> along with source
19:03:49 <Madk> atm I'm trying to figure out how to do a collztz sequence with it :P
19:03:59 <Madk> next I'll do a juggler sequence
19:12:23 <coppro> you'll find out someday
19:12:30 <coppro> it's a superset of BF, so it is therefore TC
19:12:59 <Madk> It's exiting the loop on the first iteration
19:13:00 <Madk> (Calculate a Collatz sequence of what number?));)>}
19:13:00 <Madk> [<$:)>\2$>\![_}}$<</>>_]<[_}}}$<*}>_]<$>\{]
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19:13:55 <Madk> can't figure out why
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19:15:27 <Madk> my 2 function doesn't work
19:15:38 <oerjan> HOW DARE YOU CALL ME POO
19:15:50 <Madk> I'm taling about grin
19:16:07 <Madk> wiki-search it
19:16:45 <Madk> My collatz sequence isn't working
19:16:49 <oerjan> i'll get to that in a while, i always look through the recent changes
19:18:47 <Madk> oh, 2 works fine. It was just my stuipidity
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19:19:10 <Madk> TELL ME, OH GREAT OERJAN
19:19:25 <Madk> OH GREAT OERJAN WHY DOESN'T MY CODE WORK?
19:19:30 <Madk> (Calculate a Collatz sequence of what number?));)>}
19:19:31 <Madk> [<$:)>\2$>\![_}}$<</>>_]<[_}}}$<*}>_]<$>\{]
19:19:43 <oerjan> <ais523> ignore the OO stuff in it, though; as far as I know, nobody uses it
19:20:14 <oerjan> that's rather sad, given how much work they must have done to make OO work in an ML
19:20:15 <ais523> ooh, I've been quoted!
19:20:36 <Madk> what OO are we talking about?
19:20:37 <ais523> oerjan: not really, OO fits quite well into a functional lang
19:20:44 <ais523> you can consider an object as just a sort of closure
19:21:13 <oerjan> ais523: it's getting the typing right that's the issue
19:21:34 <oerjan> ok HackEgo is broken again
19:21:40 <ais523> hmm, the major problem would just be recursion in the typing
19:22:00 <ais523> ^def hackego ul (No output.)S
19:22:09 <cpressey> oerjan: Gregor taught it a naughty word
19:22:12 <oerjan> Madk: it tends to break occasionally for some unknown reason
19:22:20 <ais523> see, I now have a working hackego clone in Underload
19:22:28 <ais523> and it's even faster than the real hackego!
19:23:02 <ais523> I think my favourite bothack was when I rigged thutubot to pass +haskell commands to lambdabot and report the result
19:23:11 <ais523> people here were wondering htf I managed to implement Haskell in Thutu
19:23:59 <oerjan> ais523: typing with type inference _and_ OO subtyping is _hard_ (well, technically unsolvable). in fact i think ocaml does some cheating.
19:25:17 <cpressey> Belief of the day: 90% of all engineers are subhuman.
19:25:51 <cpressey> (Tomorrow's Belief of the day has been cancelled.)
19:29:09 <Madk> I think my [] parsing is broken
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19:44:37 <Gregor-P> Yeah, HackEgo is protesting against my teaching it the F-word by failing.
19:46:43 <oerjan> i'm leaning more to the theory that it is wisely protesting so that i won't kickban it.
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19:52:25 <fungot> CakeProphet: that's scheme code highlight. what's wrong with lists? ( when should i appear??? hahahaha"
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20:00:04 <Gregor-P> oerjan: Just kick it, it won't autorejoin.
20:03:13 <oerjan> Gregor-P: I WILL TRY TO REMEMBER THAT
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20:08:35 <cpressey> In every job I've had since leaving my hometown, at least 70% of the effort has been grappling with the conceptual model of the product. It is never documented and it is always, for lack of a better term, fucked.
20:09:08 <cpressey> Thank you, HackEgo. I knew you'd understand.
20:09:44 <CakeProphet> cpressey: you just never noticed the ConceptualModelManager. You have to set the Product class for it.
20:10:16 <oerjan> well to find the ConceptualModelMangager you'll need to first find the ConceptualModelManagerFactory, no?
20:13:39 <Madk> CakeProphet: Check out "Grin" on the wiki :D
20:15:28 <cpressey> "Agile" et al compound the problem by dismissing the importance of even *having* an overarching conceptual model. Any "story" which doesn't fit in a "sprint" is split up -- dissociated, disconnected, incoherent.
20:19:49 <cpressey> But what really freaks me out is how many developers don't even seem to notice.
20:21:14 <cpressey> Have they given up? Or are they somehow intellectually incapable of seeing forests -- their world consisting only of trees?
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20:24:51 <oerjan> CakeProphet: you can't see the forest of cpressey's argument for the trees?
20:29:11 <cpressey> I feel a bit under fire. I need some better ways to relax.
20:29:19 <CakeProphet> well, all the talk of stories and sprints kind of confused me.
20:29:32 <cpressey> CakeProphet: Oh, that's "agile" mumbo-jumbo.
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20:48:04 <augur> any good reads lately? :x
20:49:00 <CakeProphet> just been reading lots of philosophy. "Core Questions in Philosophy" by Elliot Sober
20:49:32 <cpressey> I been reading Also Sprach Zarathustra. Neitzsche's such a nut!
20:50:41 <CakeProphet> I haven't technically been reading it since I've been so busy, but I'm in the middle of the Difference Engine. Some "steampunk" fiction. Actually, /the/ steampunk novel.
20:52:18 <oerjan> he cannot be a real philosopher, everyone knows they're never sober
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20:55:19 <Sgeo> So, who wants to hear about Activeworlds's nutty coordinate system?
20:55:49 <CakeProphet> I've never quite understood the purpose of a coordinate system in a text-based world.
20:56:03 <Sgeo> Activeworlds is not a text-based world.
20:56:50 <Sgeo> But here goes. X, Y, and Z. X is West/East, Y is up/down, Z is North/South
20:57:10 <Sgeo> But positive X is west, negative X is east
20:57:18 <Sgeo> Which is a nuisance, but it gets worse.
20:58:12 <Sgeo> Rotation is in terms of tenths of degree. 0 is NORTH (Z) and goes counterclockwise, which would make sense if X behaved normally, but...
20:58:34 <Sgeo> Um, that's pretty much it
20:58:59 <cpressey> There is a shmoo at (0, 0.00001, 3.6172E19)!
20:59:00 <Madk> why must the juggler sequence round down
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21:00:48 <oerjan> well balls cannot fall up, can they.
21:01:31 <oerjan> now if you were juggling helium balloons...
21:04:18 <oerjan> "Harry J. Smith has determined that the juggler sequence starting at a0 = 48443 reaches a maximum value at a60 with 972,463 digits, before reaching 1 at a157."
21:04:30 <oerjan> that sounds even wilder than the collatz sequence
21:04:56 <Madk> and getting a number to round down in Grin is not a particularly easy task
21:06:27 <oerjan> i'd think with those number sizes you'd need a good bignum library to get enough accuracy...
21:07:13 <Madk> My Grin interpreter does 64 bit floating points
21:07:41 <Madk> it's not infinite or anything but as long as you don't do something horrific it'll be fine
21:07:53 <oerjan> that's not going to work for that 48443 sequence, at all.
21:08:01 <Madk> probably not :P
21:09:11 <oerjan> not that you'd expect it to. even languages with big ints usually don't have big floats i think, at least by default
21:10:19 <Madk> it stll doesn't work
21:10:34 <cpressey> Big rats probably more common than big floats.
21:11:02 <cpressey> Images of a Macy's parade being overrun by giant rodents, now.
21:11:10 <oerjan> rodents of unusal size
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21:12:09 <oerjan> (yet another meme i haven't personally observed the source of)
21:13:59 <oerjan> sounds like some pirate or robinson crusoe character
21:18:07 <Madk> it rounds correctly
21:18:21 <Madk> and it does the sequence otherwise correctly
21:18:30 <Madk> but they don't work together correctly.
21:23:04 <Madk> WHY IS THE VALUE IN THE REGISTER RANDOMLY GOING TO ZERO ._.
21:23:42 <oerjan> clearly your register is leaking
21:24:30 <Madk> this makes no sense ;(
21:25:04 <Madk> somewhere between the last symbol of the rounding part and the first symbol of the not-rounding part, the register is becoming 0
21:25:24 <Madk> and both of those symbols do nothing except move the memory cell pointer
21:30:47 <oerjan> you're supposed to say "NOTHING CAN STOP ME NOW"
21:30:55 <Madk> 2.000 does not round down to 1.000
21:31:29 <Madk> something's still broken
21:34:49 <Madk> ok, the rounding works lovely now, but it's always telling me it only took 1 step
21:34:57 <Madk> hoefully that's not difficult to fix
21:35:02 <augur> simcity was (is?) based off of CAs
21:35:16 <Madk> that is interesting
21:37:27 <Madk> cellular automata
21:37:35 <augur> cmon coppro, you should know that
21:37:49 <coppro> augur: it could also mean Certificate Authority.
21:37:53 <coppro> or California. or Canada
21:41:07 <oerjan> it's a little known secret that those things are all cellular automata
21:42:03 <Madk> stupid juggler sequence
21:42:14 <Madk> oh how I despise it
21:42:21 <Madk> I've come too far to give up though
21:42:37 <oerjan> sunk costs, and all that
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21:49:02 <Madk> I should make it track the highest number reached, too, though.
21:50:08 <Madk> nah, that'd take too much work :P
21:51:07 <cpressey> pikhq: See, now that didn't render for me at all.
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21:57:54 <Madk> what should I do with Grin now?
21:58:24 <Madk> 99 bottles maybe
22:10:47 <fizzie> For some reason or another, I threw together *another* m-code interp. (It's equally incomplete as the first one, though.)
22:11:15 <fizzie> Lovingly handcrafted x86-64 asm, this time: http://git.zem.fi/misc/blob/HEAD:/m-code/interp.asm
22:11:53 <Madk> that is awesome :D
22:11:57 <coppro> although my terminal emulator can't seem to handle it correctly
22:12:24 <coppro> yeah, it's because it's KDE, which uses UTF-16 internally, and is generally broken
22:12:30 <Madk> I'll be back in just a bit
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22:13:20 <pikhq> coppro: UTF-16 is perfectly fine.
22:13:29 <pikhq> Presumably, KDE is actually using UCS-2 though.
22:13:49 <coppro> pikhq: nah, it's more that it gets confused when it uses a non-BMP character because it takes two bytes
22:14:01 <coppro> UTF-16 itself, of course, is fine
22:14:31 <pikhq> Even more borken when you consider that there is not a one-to-one mapping between glyphs and codepoints.
22:14:59 <coppro> it seems to handle that normally fine
22:15:11 <pikhq> How do people fail so much at Unicode?
22:15:53 <cpressey> In Soviet Russia, Unicode fails at YOU!
22:16:30 <coppro> I completely agree with you about it
22:16:50 <coppro> it should not be all that difficult to make it so that backspace after 𝓜 deletes the character, like in Firefox
22:17:33 <pikhq> Darnit, text should *just plain work*.
22:29:10 <Sgeo> pikhq, want to help test my game?
22:29:15 <Sgeo> I'm scared of unicode issues
22:29:31 <Sgeo> We're using a 4.x SDK for AW, but Unicode support was added in 5.0
22:30:11 <Sgeo> Accented os seem to work, but I'm not sure that it's enough. AW itself doesn't seem to support a lot of Unicode stuff, and that's out of my control
22:30:18 <Sgeo> Hm, I should try chatting though
22:32:24 <Sgeo> Pasting in weird characters fails just as badly for AW as it does for the bot
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22:48:12 <Sgeo> OMGWTF Bonobo Conspiracy updated
22:48:19 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, did you read logs?
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23:46:41 <AnMaster> oh H stands for Hurd obviously
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23:48:38 <cpressey> AnMaster: For glorious improvement, of course.
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23:53:17 * oerjan watches brains explode around him
23:57:37 <Sgeo> So, the only similarity between H and Haskell is that they're both functional?