00:08:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:11:29 -!- calamari_ has joined. 00:25:58 http://codu.org/tmp/teddy.gif 00:26:36 om nom nom nom? 00:32:12 Mmmmmm 00:32:13 Human 00:38:02 -!- augur has joined. 00:41:09 augur: http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif THIS HAS NO CONVERSATIONAL RELEVANCE 00:41:14 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 00:42:35 8D 00:43:01 except for the nom, which was obviously added because of it 00:43:33 oerjan: Actually I made a more optimized version and had to give it a new name :P 00:44:05 I stole that from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Xa4bHcJu8 , which you should watch if you feel you're no longer in need of your sanity. 00:46:44 oh i'm definitely in need of my sanity. now if i could just remember where i put it... 00:48:35 -!- Madk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:49:40 -!- Madk has joined. 00:54:11 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 00:57:14 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:49:09 -!- alise has joined. 01:50:29 Oh my life. 01:50:46 Oh? 01:54:14 wow, it's pretty late for you to be online 01:54:27 I'm usually on at this time. Why? 01:54:47 I mean, you normally come online earlier 01:54:50 and would be leaving around now 01:54:59 Not around now, no. 01:55:06 also, I note it's a Monday, and yet you aren't on your iPhone 01:55:26 presumably because you don't have to go there until what normal people consider the morning? 01:55:34 it's only 2 hours since aliseiphone left 01:55:41 oh, aha 01:55:57 ais523: yes; I haven't slept yet. 01:58:46 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:20:30 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:20:38 alise: looks like you have a stalker. :) 02:20:42 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 02:20:45 Hm? 02:20:52 god damnit IRC. stop disconnecting me and changing my nick. 02:21:05 alise: in ais523 02:21:07 :) 02:21:19 no, not really 02:21:24 I'm just being sociable 02:21:49 ...my humor is not appreciated, it seems. 02:22:07 humour generally needs to actually be funny 02:23:03 bjorn vork'd stairs were up the -- he saw light -- trod onwards what's this spicy light ; frightening events -- trod trod trod. stairs. more stairs and steeper now vertical climb screes rocks bjorn hooks on with teeth as legs fall... stretch crumble scrummage up towards top, what's top. angel angel okay "this is " what is "the thing you need--" he fell "--bjorn!" caught by angel with newfound adolescent delight & fury he climbed. -- rocks fall up up vertica 02:23:04 l pushing so gravity makes glonk glonk go feet plod in light & bjorn climbs & bjorn climbs & bjorn climbs & it's the top & he's there & unfantastic light humbly casts upon him & he absorbs it in & it is nothing much & it is nothing special & it is home 02:25:49 Bjorn is, like, the most confused person ever. 02:25:51 The Bjorn Chronicles 02:25:54 His life keeps jumping wildly between uncorrelated events. 02:25:59 *unrelated 02:26:02 Why did I say uncorrelated? 02:26:05 you don't need to fix that 02:26:10 I know. 02:26:11 uncorrelated seems just fine in that context 02:26:15 But I didn't mean uncorrelated, not really. 02:26:15 and probably more fun 02:26:16 *Anachronicles 02:27:52 oerjan: i was thinking "The Chronicles of the Life and Times of Bjorn, [long list of ridiculous titles]" 02:32:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:32:54 -!- augur has joined. 02:33:10 -!- Zuu has joined. 02:36:02 there once was a person who bjorn 02:36:02 had good inkling of thought to scorn 02:36:02 but this man did say 02:36:02 "i'll tell you, okay, 02:36:02 why and how are our fates are born." 02:36:03 02:36:05 "tell me young man with grandeoise plans, 02:36:07 do you know of the various & diverse clans?" 02:36:09 to bjorn's reply, the young man devised 02:36:11 a suitable response without any lies: 02:36:13 "those issues are those of man's." 02:36:15 02:36:17 "codswallop, trivial and wrong; 02:36:19 i'll have you singing my song 02:36:21 before the end of the day 02:36:23 your thoughts will sway 02:36:25 and you'll realign your ways, dear mong." 02:40:11 -!- calamari_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:42:21 /yawn 02:45:15 23:33:49 * cheater99 suddenly finds a forgotten stash of porn movies. 02:45:16 23:43:00 * pikhq is certain you will soon regret finding it 02:45:18 "...Mother?!" 02:45:31 aw 02:45:38 :D 02:45:38 that's cuuuute 02:46:05 ... 02:46:06 NOT 02:46:07 CUTE 02:46:47 why? 02:46:49 incest is best 02:47:01 `addquote incest is best 02:47:03 197| incest is best 02:47:16 you probably didn't know alise is actually my younger sister 02:48:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 02:49:41 en-GB-oed is weird 02:49:43 Ahhhhh. I didn't realize he'd actually gotten the sex change operation. 02:49:51 (real-IZE but ana-LYSE) 02:50:01 Gregor: "he" :P 02:50:16 Well 02:50:16 ex-he 02:50:46 Wouldn't the appropriate word in that case be "she"? :P 02:51:07 * pikhq proposes we remove gendered pronouns 02:51:32 Suggest us something that isn't obviously a good idea. 02:52:24 remove _all_ pronouns 02:52:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:52:39 remove all language. 02:52:49 we should start communicating with direct mental imagery. 02:52:54 now THAT would be nice. 02:53:15 yeah but then imagine communicating with /you/. 02:53:27 "I AM PROJECTING PORNOGRAPHY ONTO YOUR VISUAL CORTEX." 02:53:30 it would totally intimidate you 02:53:36 no, it wouldn't be pornography 02:53:52 it would be the most mind-twisting imagination of R^n for n>3. 02:53:56 -!- calamari_ has joined. 02:54:16 oerjan: Turn English into pro-drop? Amenable. 02:54:36 you wouldn't stand a moment, alise. 02:54:57 somehow i don't believe cheater99 can actually see in >3D. 02:54:59 gasp 02:55:04 -!- calamari_ has quit (Client Quit). 02:55:07 Having removed, English becomes concise. Like. 02:55:09 that would be wrong 02:55:18 you obviously don't know jack, alise 02:55:43 my mental prowess is beyond anything you could put a finger on. 02:55:44 pikhq is dumb. think wants a simpler language; think will find hopes are misguided, as language becomes incomprehensible. 02:55:56 cheater99: only matched by your humbleness. 02:56:14 only matched what? 02:56:21 don't understand. 02:56:43 will stop being silly? 02:57:01 alise: Incomprehensible? No worse than Japanese; pro-drop too. 02:57:16 i beg to differ. 02:57:21 anata is a simple pronoun. 02:57:26 so are kore, watashi, etc. 02:57:30 pikhq: how do you say "him and I" in Japanese? 02:57:36 cheater99: And they are hardly ever used. 02:57:36 sorry 02:57:43 how do say "and" in Japanese? :P 02:57:49 no 02:57:51 alise: to 02:57:56 to, yes 02:58:15 pikhq: it was a joke 02:58:19 "him and I", how do you say that. 02:58:21 pikhq: they're hardly ever used but they're not inexistant 02:58:25 kare to watashi 02:59:21 cheater99: They're also etymologically derived from not-pronouns. "Anata" is something akin to "in that direction", kore is "the item over here", boku is "your humble servant", omae is "Honorable person over there", kimi is "Lord", and so on... 02:59:42 pronouns are pronouns 02:59:55 polish doesn't use pronouns for day to day simple conversation 03:00:02 or rather 03:00:04 so without pronouns, are all confused; but is simpler, so all rejoice, seems. 03:00:12 it uses a lot of them, but not personal ones 03:00:27 alise: Not confused; quite simple to understand. 03:00:42 there are special rules because the information carried by many pronouns is carried in the words surrounding them. 03:00:56 pikhq: but throw away metasyntactic version of "pikhq"? why? 03:01:23 Japanese just omits pretty much any part of the sentence that is obvious. 03:01:46 heh, a virus is a stand-alone program; a worm can only infect another program 03:01:51 talk about a reversal 03:03:23 huh 03:03:29 where did you get those definitions from 03:03:37 -!- iamcal has joined. 03:05:11 ?? 03:05:12 wikipedia using it offhand was what inspired me to make that remark; but i knew it already 03:05:43 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:05:52 those are some dumb definitions 03:06:11 they're the widely-accepted ones ... 03:06:31 they're widely accepted if you suck 03:07:30 alise: what sort of music do you listen to? 03:07:47 i listen to white noise and the sound of GLOBAL WARMING 03:07:55 huh 03:08:03 you don't listen to CESIUM DECAY???????????????? 03:08:16 well that's a given 03:08:25 ok good. 03:08:28 i was beginning to worry. 03:09:35 do you ever listen to electronic music, alise? 03:10:00 yes, sometimes i listen to the 50hz tone underlying our electrical system. 03:10:26 ok 03:10:28 what else? 03:10:39 innocent babies dying 03:10:52 got any more insanely smart remarks, or can we get on with the conversation. 03:11:04 that's not electronic, alise 03:11:21 cheater99: nope and nope 03:11:26 unless their dying is actuated through midi 03:11:26 :p 03:11:40 alise: omfg i'm going to KIRRRR U 03:11:52 http://codu.org/zee/vg/zee5.ogg Technically electronic music! :P 03:12:14 alise: give me a useful answer to my question, or DIE 03:12:17 in pain. 03:12:21 cheater99: no. 03:12:33 alise: The correct response was "NO U" 03:12:34 :( 03:12:44 Gregor: U. 03:12:54 http://www.gamerevolution.com/manifesto/happy-japanese-kirby-angry-american-kirby-500 03:12:57 KIRBY HATES THE UNITED STATES. 03:13:01 Erm, that was a mislink above 03:13:05 http://codu.org/music/vg/zee5.ogg Technically electronic music! :P 03:13:18 i don't think i've ever finished kirby for snes 03:13:22 it was too fucking bland 03:13:23 or was it gba 03:13:25 anyways 03:13:35 http://i.imgur.com/yce2x.jpg --> http://i.imgur.com/PrR02.jpg 03:13:39 america just ruins everything 03:14:22 -!- cheater99 has left (?). 03:14:26 -!- cheater99 has joined. 03:14:29 hi 03:14:35 alise: do you listen to electronic music? 03:14:42 alise: From nondescript to "why is this featureless semihuman mess on my box" 03:14:53 i listen to electronic moo-sic 03:14:57 the sounds of androidal cows 03:15:05 f u 03:15:08 Gregor: Hey, I think the first image is pretty. 03:15:15 you're not being very friendly today 03:15:26 cheater99: but you're being inane 03:15:28 As opposed to all other days. 03:15:28 alise: Do electric cows dream of robots? 03:16:01 alise: Also, AAAGH THE AWFUL ART DEAR GOD WHAT SORT OF MONSTER WOULD DO THAT 03:16:06 -!- Madk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:16:44 That game, incidentally, violates the GPL: http://astrange.ithinksw.net/ico/ 03:16:55 alise: die already 03:17:11 cheater99: if you don't like me, maybe stop talking to me 03:17:19 i don't like you right now. 03:17:20 :< 03:17:39 i'll probably like you later. 03:17:43 i'm like that. 03:18:13 i should sleep soon. 03:22:12 and never wake up. 03:23:56 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:25:58 must sleep 03:37:48 Bye. 03:37:49 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:13:01 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:18:51 -!- calamari_ has joined. 04:31:57 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 05:01:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:01:09 -!- augur has joined. 05:01:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:01:15 -!- augur has joined. 05:02:17 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:03:59 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 05:08:41 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:10:36 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 05:20:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:34:26 -!- calamari_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:17:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:35:33 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:31:28 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:32:19 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 07:40:02 -!- MizardX has joined. 07:51:24 -!- coppro has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:40:42 Hah... Found out why pushes were failing sometimes: Socat was involved and it was configured with default half-close timeout of half second(!). So if the remote end didn't respond in half second, socat would close the connection completely, causing failure. :-/ 08:42:54 The source end half-closes the connection when its done and then starts to wait for response... 08:44:15 Half a second is quite low timeout... 08:54:41 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:01:23 -!- Madk has joined. 09:03:50 fizzie, I have a pano coming up later. Need to be anonymised (some faces blurred) first. 09:05:05 also taken with a friend's camera. So kind of different quality (slightly worse than mine) 09:07:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:07:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:07:55 -!- gm|lap has joined. 09:11:00 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:39:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:40:10 -!- augur has joined. 09:45:13 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:01:31 -!- aliseiphone has joined. 10:06:11 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:11:19 -!- tombom has joined. 10:11:26 -!- aliseiphone has joined. 10:16:36 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:19:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:29:25 aliseiphone, do you have to go to the unit in the summer? 10:43:51 -!- gm|lap has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 11:10:37 -!- choochter has joined. 11:53:09 fizzie, http://omploader.org/vNTFzag 11:53:18 free hand, so kind of wonky 11:53:46 Shouldn't the house wrap to the right of the image? 11:54:25 Phantom_Hoover, not 360° 11:54:29 so :P 11:55:28 Looks very... bucolic. 11:55:46 * AnMaster googles bucolic 11:56:08 fizzie, oh sure. kollonilottsomrÃ¥de 11:56:14 not sure how to translate 11:57:16 It sounds like it's the same thing as fi:siirtolapuutarha, but I don't know if there's an English word for it at all. 11:58:03 fizzie, I can't read that ;P 11:58:30 fizzie, what does it mean though? 11:58:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:02:30 It's this sort of gardeny area divided into (rather small) pieces of land you can rent. Usually there's a small cottage on it, where they take us every midsummer even though there's nothing much to do there, and I just end up playing around with the phone all the time, and... I think I got a bit sidetracked there. 12:02:55 fizzie, hm yes 12:03:03 fizzie, though I'm not sure it is rented here 12:03:21 as in, bought maybe 12:03:23 not sure 12:03:29 it's my grandparents who owns it 12:03:48 or perhaps rent it 12:05:06 why on earth does *.tif default to opening in evince? 12:05:11 and where does one change that in gnome 12:05:30 Hmn. Around here I've understood the land is owned by the city, though the cottages I think are built/bought by the tenants. 12:06:16 Oh, and there's some sort of technical endless waiting-list if you want a spot (since all the areas are totally full), but it's completely useless, since no-one ever leaves; they just keep passing the place on to friends and relatives if someone gets fed up. 12:06:35 fizzie, I know my grandfather (mother's side) build the large house that is partly outside the picture by himself many many years ago. The small brown one is more recent iirc, and he didn't build that 12:07:19 fizzie, I'm kind of surprised it turned out that well with a mean control point distance of 9.5 and max of 49.8 12:07:33 I can't find any seam 12:08:09 Foliage is an "easy" target when it comes to seams, enblend can usually make it disappear somewhere inside the mess. 12:08:54 true but the seams in the preview were all on houses 12:09:57 Here's an aerial photo of one local "siirtolapuutarha" place: http://kartat.eniro.fi/m/pAZrf -- I think it's a non-Flash thing, though it does need all those scripts. 12:10:14 fizzie, on the other hand, I had to do all control points by hand. The automatic ones all ended up in the white sky and WAY wrong 12:11:04 non-flash indeed 12:11:06 There's that one cloud-detecting heuristic, I've been wondering if I should try it some time. Of course it wouldn't really help if all the points are there. 12:11:43 fizzie, it doesn't work on overcast skys 12:11:49 and yes on several they were all up there 12:13:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:13:46 fizzie, for example it ended up hiding that "portal" before, matching up the bushes on either side. And no, the controlpoints only did image pairs 12:13:59 fizzie, however, it did put all in the sky like in opposite corners 12:14:04 so yeah it ended up hidden 12:14:39 fizzie, oh and source material was jpg, couldn't find raw on that camera. 12:15:20 fizzie, oh and I couldn't get my card reader on my laptop to work. It did accept the XD card from the camera, but it never showed it in dmesg or elsewhere 12:15:24 wonder why 12:18:21 fizzie, did you see the bird btw? 12:19:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:20:19 Probably not, since I can't seem to find a bird now either, even though you said there's one. 12:20:25 fizzie, in front of that person standing there 12:20:42 it's a http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgoxe 12:20:45 Oh, there. 12:21:29 That's fi:talitiainen, or more colloquially known as fi:talitintti. 12:25:02 This is again very off-topicy for this channel, but I was recently linked to http://www.effectgames.com/demos/canvascycle/?sound=0 and can't resist the impulse to pass it on; palette-rotation based animation is almost a lost art nowadays. 12:25:12 fizzie, did you see the other birds 12:25:23 I only see them because I know they were there 12:25:59 fizzie, look on the opposite side to the first bird 12:26:07 on the ground 12:26:21 there are some potatos left over from dinner there and some birds next to that 12:26:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:26:44 two to be exact 12:27:03 Oh, there. Yes, they're rather unobvious. 12:27:12 fizzie, I think at least one is either http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%A5sparv or http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilfink 12:27:26 * Phantom_Hoover wants to write a series of 7625597484987 books. 12:28:34 fizzie, is kind of hard to tell the difference between those 12:28:50 fizzie, hm I think I have some close images on them 12:29:42 ah yes 12:29:44 * AnMaster uploads 12:30:29 fizzie, first image http://omploader.org/vNTF0bA 12:30:43 fizzie, and second http://omploader.org/vNTF0bQ 12:32:43 Your Wikipedia links are fi:varpunen (lit. "small twig") and fi:pikkuvarpunen (lit. "small small twig"), respectively; our bird nomenclature leaves something to be desired. 12:34:39 fizzie, XD 12:34:53 fizzie, tree sparrow and house sparrow it seems to be for English 12:35:09 and um. that very first one next to the person: "great tit" 12:35:15 innuendo at it's finest 12:36:13 Yes, there's tons of horrible, horrible, even-worse-than-oerjan-level puns on tits. 12:37:20 indeed 12:43:32 -!- Madk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:03:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:08:38 -!- Madk has joined. 13:14:45 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:20:22 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:20:38 -!- MizardX has joined. 13:26:34 -!- aliseiphone_ has joined. 13:27:44 Has anyone made a language that's easily compilable into a Turing Machine? 13:29:30 Brainfuck is pretty easy to compile in a Turing machine 13:30:02 I made a language that is a Turing machine, which is even easier to compile into a turing machine! 13:31:07 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:31:09 -!- aliseiphone_ has changed nick to aliseiphone. 13:31:28 Slereah, preferably high-level and non-obfuscated. 13:32:40 Well, neither are obfuscated, but high level languages aren't common, and I doubt they'd be easy to compile into a turing machine 13:32:52 Depends what you mean by high level 13:33:16 Turing himself defined a set of functions for his machine to make it easier to program in, does it qualify? 13:33:31 -!- aschueler has joined. 13:34:27 Slereah, hmm. 13:34:40 I suppose tape-based things are harder to moduarise. 13:34:49 s/moduarise/modularise/ 13:37:22 He defined functions that can be used to find a character on the tape, go back to a certain marker, copy characters, erase particular symbols, replace elements, stuff like that 13:37:36 Which is extremely easy to compile into a turing machine 13:37:43 I tried to implement that, but got lazy 13:38:14 OK. 13:39:00 By "high-level" I mean abstracted from the details of tape management and the like. 13:39:17 Not "make a C to TM compiler". 13:39:31 I'm making BrainFuck 5D 13:39:52 It's BrainFuck with 5 dimensions to maneuver the memory pointer in 13:40:01 it's awesome :D 13:40:10 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 13:40:14 iunno$ 13:40:31 I mean, making brainfuck in any number of dimension isn't particularly hard 13:40:38 so? 13:40:38 It generalizes easily 13:40:41 it's still fun 13:40:47 In what way? 13:41:41 beats me 13:41:57 making the arbitrarily large array work in 5 dimensions, perhpas? 13:42:11 Madk, doesn't seem *too* hard. 13:42:15 that's turning out to be pretty fun 13:42:25 right, but it's still a challenge 13:42:27 You just make an array of array of array of array 13:42:30 In a language with arbitrarily sized arrays in the first place. 13:42:57 the language I'm working in has extremely inefficient arbitrary arrays 13:43:01 If you want to make it challenging, try doing it with a folding function :3 13:43:12 I have a bit of a system I've worked out for myself 13:43:21 but it's for 1d arrays. 13:43:24 not 2d. 13:43:29 not 3d. 13:43:32 not even 4d. 13:43:42 so yeah, I get to rewrite it 13:43:52 not *too* hard, really, but not easy, for sure. 13:44:23 Brainfuck is easy to implement, really, whatever the nuances 13:44:33 the interesting part isn't so much resizing the array when needed 13:44:46 it's handling when the memory pointer moves into negative indexes 13:45:08 and finding a good way to check 5 of these at once isn't the most relazing thing in the world 13:45:54 Madk, which language? 13:46:07 It's called BlitzMax. 13:46:25 not a lot of people know about it, but we who use it love it 13:48:05 also, it's expensive, so that deters a lot of people, too. 13:48:43 It's not expensive if you PIRATE IT 13:50:15 "Based on BASIC". That seems suspect. 13:51:13 slereah: It's by an independant developer who listens to the community. Don't steal from the little people ._. 13:51:30 phantom_hoover: ehhh.. that's mostly because of its predecessors 13:51:43 they were totally basic, but BlitzMax is more OO 13:51:52 It's nive because it can do both 13:51:59 BASIC and OO? 13:52:24 C and OO? 13:52:27 So wait, what fantabulous features does it have? 13:52:30 Oh wait, that didn't turn out too well 13:52:31 yeah, it's got a basic-like syntax that makes it fast to code and relatively easy to read, but the core OO concepts are stillt here 13:52:45 *coughpython* 13:52:49 ._. 13:52:52 python sucks 13:52:58 Easy to read and OO? 13:53:02 * Sgeo is at war with Madk . 13:53:03 That is so. 13:53:18 Madk, why? 13:53:21 * Slereah steals Madk 13:53:28 AHHHHHhhh-slience- 13:53:58 I rarely use it, but it's a good language to write quick programs that you're writing for the halibut. 13:54:49 I think I have more Python experience than any other language 13:55:06 It's also good because it's totally cross-platform on PCs - windows, max, and linux, and plans to add support for ARM-processor-based systems 13:55:19 Madk, but it's commercial! 13:55:28 It's worth it. 13:55:37 give mark silby a chance 13:55:42 Is it compiled? 13:56:07 Ah, OK. 13:56:12 ? 13:56:16 That makes it tolerable enough. 13:56:19 (Google) 13:56:31 "compiled"? 13:56:51 as in compiler vs interpreter, right? 13:57:00 Compiled into a binary that can be run without it installed. 13:57:04 yeah 13:57:10 that's why I hate python 13:57:18 It's interpreted? 13:57:27 technically it compiles into x86 assembly 13:57:33 but yeah, it compiles 13:57:42 *at leat on windows, it does 13:57:46 s/It's/Python's/ 13:58:16 Sorry, clarifying: you hate Python because it's interpreted? 13:58:41 Can't use it as a C++ substitute, I guess 13:58:59 phantom_hoover: that is correct. 13:59:17 sgeo: it can import C++, C, and Obj-C code, if that matters to you any 13:59:20 Madk, I still think it's a bad idea to write an esolang interpreter in a commercial language. 13:59:29 Why's that? 13:59:36 * Sgeo was referring to Python 13:59:49 Sgeo: I see. 14:00:19 Because it's being written for programmers, so it seems rather bad form to make it impossible to toy with your interpreter without buying the language. 14:00:34 bah 14:00:50 they can download the trial if they want to mess with it 14:00:59 then hopefully they'll like it enough to buy it :P 14:01:13 Plus, esolang programmers are going to have a high proportion using Linux or BSD or something weirder, so you'll need to supply tonnes of binaries. 14:03:01 But I digress. 14:03:53 Madk, what are the arbitrary-sized arrays like? 14:04:08 phantom_hoover: there are 3 options - 14:04:12 linked lists, 14:04:26 maps (every object has a key to reference it by), 14:04:31 and resizable arrays 14:04:35 that is all. 14:05:02 the arrays are very fast, the linked lists are a tad slower, and maps are not a wise option for intensive data management 14:05:12 but they're still there, regardless 14:06:07 "Pretend that we wrote this echo server for an elementary school, and the PTA has requested that profanities be censored and unechoable. The parents of PTA also happen to be not very bright and have taken the euphemism “4-letter word” too literally. They have requested that we block all 4-letter words." 14:06:23 whaaat? 14:06:33 http://snapframework.com/docs/tutorials/snap-api 14:06:45 **** makes absolutely no sense. 14:06:49 **** 14:06:51 th at 14:06:54 o_o 14:07:25 Madk, linked lists are pretty good for tapes. 14:07:37 Arrays are better 14:07:42 imo, at least 14:07:45 faster 14:08:03 Madk, true, but what happens when you start appending backwards. 14:08:15 things slow down a little 14:08:18 :P 14:08:35 Meanwhile back and forward are the same for a linked-list tape. 14:10:34 Also, what happens when a program accesses cell 100, flips it around a bit, then sets it back to 0? 14:11:12 I don't know what you're trying to describe, but my system works fine :/ 14:11:38 all my interpreters I've written with arbitrarily size tapes use it 14:11:55 anyway 14:12:03 I really need to finish my AGBIC entry .-. 14:12:15 I've been putting it off for a week now 14:12:38 AGBIC? 14:12:49 TIGSource A Game by its Cover 14:13:39 http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13851.0 14:16:57 Yeah, I have to sqeeze unit movement and handling and an AI opponent into a week 14:17:06 gonna be fun, I say. 14:17:47 Are you doing that in ThingyMAX? 14:19:20 aye 14:22:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:24:53 oerjan! 14:25:45 Madk, for the 5D Brainfuck, please make the 4D movement commands 'i' and 'u'. 14:25:57 ... why? 14:27:07 Culture reference. 14:27:24 still trying to be radically new? in which case you better first consider Infinifuck 14:27:24 I thought as much. To what? 14:27:34 eh? 14:27:45 (infinite-dimensional brainfuck) 14:27:58 oerjan: right _now_ I'm trying to get some work done on my AGBIC entry 14:28:07 haven't touched it in a week 14:28:17 AGBIC? 14:28:18 stupid esolangs had me distracted :P 14:28:22 http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13851.0 14:28:34 TGISource A Game by its Cover competition 14:30:04 * oerjan assumes without clicking that's a competition where you design only the cover of games 14:30:11 you assume wrong. 14:30:43 We're making games based off fake cartridge.box art 14:30:50 that . is meant to be a / 14:31:06 hurrah for typos 14:31:22 ah so the cover is given 14:31:28 btw anyone OS X here knows if mplayer works on it? 14:31:36 in a mind of speaking 14:32:01 *manner 14:35:16 http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13851.0 <-- what console is that cartridge for? 14:35:37 it's fake 14:36:07 Madk, yes but checking other ones they use similar cartridge shapes. So they have a collection of blank ones you can photoshop? 14:36:58 http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13392.0 14:37:12 Mine and most are from Famicase 2008-2010 14:37:19 http://famicase.com/08/index.html 14:37:23 Madk, Famicase? 14:38:26 Madk, wtf is a famicase? 14:38:38 anmaster: hold on a second 14:38:44 Madk: oh and paintfuck was all the rage for a short while, although that's only 2d 14:39:10 i think it got reddited and stuff 14:39:16 suggestion: trefunge extended to higher dimensions 14:39:19 been done 14:39:26 107 is max I heard of 14:39:36 anmaster: http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/17046 14:39:37 or something like that 14:39:51 Madk, no flash on this thing. 14:39:57 o_o 14:40:09 Madk, on a Linux/UltraSPARC 14:40:17 Madk, also playing music, would prefer written desc 14:40:22 107? did they stop because they didn't have room for more than 214 distinct direction characters, or something like that? 14:40:27 since I'm streaming live music 14:40:42 It's where a bunch of japanese people who like retro games come together and make fake cartridge art for fake games 14:40:48 oerjan, no clue 14:41:04 Madk, yes but where did they get the plastic cases 14:41:49 beats me : 14:42:47 Madk, oh and even on my x86_64 at home and such I have no flash of course 14:42:53 I don't trust closed source 14:43:00 anmaster: w/e ._. 14:43:07 sure I'm stuck with my BIOS and various firmware 14:43:33 and on one computer, nvidia drivers (need 3D, hope the noveau drivers get that soon!) 14:43:39 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:44:24 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 14:48:59 Random, probably stupid idea: a CAS written in a proof assistant. 14:50:08 :o 14:50:53 AnMaster: Have you checked if your MB happens to be on coreboot's list nowadays? Slim chance, I know, but then you'd get rid of that BIOS. 14:52:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:53:46 AnMaster: And mplayer does run on OS X. (There's also a native simple GUI frontend, which is not so impressive, but the command-line side works like you'd expect.) 14:59:27 Wait, what's an open-source BIOS good for? 15:00:01 Ignore that, actually, I have a better question. 15:00:18 According to the NASM manual, GAS can't properly write 16-bit code. 15:00:28 Is this true? 15:03:40 There is a .code16 directive, but it might be defective. 15:04:20 So you can write 16-bit code, but I'm not sure about "properliness". 15:05:55 Me neither. 15:06:16 Does GAS actually have support for flat executables? 15:06:26 s/executables/binaries/ 15:11:06 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the Greek in today's IWC means. 15:11:25 Phantom_Hoover: it's just mock greek based on an abba song 15:11:37 I got that. 15:11:38 it's actually english with greek characters 15:11:43 Got that, too. 15:11:54 what's to wonder, then? 15:11:55 I wondered if someone else had done the work for me. 15:12:08 only in my head, alas 15:13:14 http://www.lyricsfreak.com/a/abba/dancing+queen_20002554.html 15:13:16 You can objcopy gas-assembled objects into flat binaries, it doesn't need any more special support than that. Or ld with output-format binary. 15:13:22 it's the chorus, naturally :D 15:13:40 I had that "DOS .com out of Linux gcc" mini-example here a while ago. 15:13:45 "Iu ar the dansing kuen, iung and suet, wnli seph(?)enten. 15:14:33 Dansing kuen, phel the bet phrom the tamboren, w iea. 15:15:31 iu kan danz, iu kan iaiph. Aphing the taim oph ior laiph. Oooo. 15:16:12 Se that gerl, uatch that sen, digin the dansing kuen." 15:16:26 BEST. IWC. PUN. EVER. 15:16:38 what pun 15:18:22 pun tang 15:18:25 lol lol lol. 15:18:45 * oerjan doesn't get _that_, either 15:18:53 you don't know what poontang is? 15:18:59 the poonany? 15:19:06 no 15:19:06 I don't know what poontang is. 15:19:17 You Americans and your weird slang. 15:19:24 i'm not american 15:19:25 AnMaster: Have you checked if your MB happens to be on coreboot's list nowadays? Slim chance, I know, but then you'd get rid of that BIOS. <-- yes I checked, even if it was however, I wouldn't want to risk bricking my computer 15:19:41 cheater99, oops, mistook you for CakeProphet. 15:19:44 Sorry. 15:19:54 You Germans and your weird slang, then. 15:20:00 now i know 15:20:03 what's worse is you mistook me for an american 15:20:07 and i'm not german either 15:20:08 wtf 15:20:10 * cheater99 gets insulted 15:20:23 cheater99, AAAA 15:20:24 AnMaster: That'd be one big brick. (Away for now.) 15:20:26 cheater99, .de 15:20:26 you're neither american nor german, just creepy 15:20:33 cheater99, so what are you? 15:20:50 i am a sentient cloud of plasma. 15:20:56 fizzie, indeed. either mini-tower sized or thinkpad sized 15:20:58 i am beyond space or origin. 15:21:06 fizzie, I don't like the prospect of either 15:21:06 cheater99, a sentient cloud of plasma where? 15:21:25 i could send you an incidence matrix 15:21:30 Sentient clouds of plasma have to be somewhere, you know. 15:21:32 but i'm not sure your hard drive is 50 petabytes big!!!\ 15:22:18 cheater99, what is the average of the position of your particles with respect to Earth? 15:22:39 if you're not german, why are you connected through a german isp 15:23:22 Wow, Mycenae was a tourist attraction for the *Romans*. 15:23:37 That's, like, *old*. 15:23:48 i have to take up a form that makes it convenient and even possible for your species to understand my communication 15:24:02 And this form is in Germany? 15:24:09 s/in // 15:24:19 Ahahaha. 15:24:20 well convenient maybe, not sure about the possible 15:24:31 Then, by definition, you are German. 15:24:36 y 15:24:57 Phantom_Hoover, or a tourist. Or emigrated 15:24:59 cheater99, Germany isn't a cloud of plasma. 15:25:13 well not _yet_ anyway 15:25:19 XD 15:25:19 AnMaster, he says he *is* Germany. You cannot get any more German than that. 15:26:01 ah 15:26:02 indeed 15:26:07 missed that sed expression 15:43:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 15:47:32 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:47:37 -!- relet has joined. 15:47:43 cpressey! 15:48:04 Phantoom_Hover! 15:56:31 Is it possible that C++ really isn't as bad as I keep thinking it is? 15:57:10 Sgeo: No. Not possible. 15:57:35 C+ isn't as bad as you think, maybe. But add the extra + on the end, and all bets are off. 15:57:47 What language would one write, say, an IRC client in, or a web browser 15:57:51 What's XChat written in? 15:58:05 Are there decent alternatives to C++ for that sort of thing? 15:58:13 C. 15:58:51 * Sgeo thought that C wasn't intended for applications 15:59:17 LHC things are written in C D: 15:59:21 C++ actually 16:01:59 Sgeo, it isn't. 16:02:05 But you can still do it. 16:02:22 Gnome is written in C, isn't it> 16:02:48 I take it that most sane people writing applications in C use something like GLib? 16:05:08 Sane people don't write applications in C. 16:05:56 What do sane people write applications in? 16:05:57 C++? 16:06:04 No, I don't think so. 16:06:17 From this, I conclude that sane people don't write applications. 16:06:31 Yeah, I was gonna say :P 16:10:02 Indeed, lots of insane people don't write applications. 16:10:09 -!- Arzgarb has joined. 16:16:52 Some of Gnome is written in Vala nowadays. 16:17:02 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:17:44 -!- augur has joined. 16:22:38 Huh. 16:22:42 Vala just compiles to C 16:23:04 So did C++, at the start. 16:23:13 -!- aliseiphone_ has joined. 16:23:28 * Sgeo wonders if Vala is sane for general application programming 16:23:38 Or just for GNOMEish stuff 16:23:41 What's XChat written in? <-- C 16:23:41 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:23:42 -!- aliseiphone_ has changed nick to aliseiphone. 16:23:45 it is gnome after all 16:24:09 well 16:24:11 gtk+ rather 16:24:14 not gnome 16:24:23 What's Chrome written in? 16:24:27 no clue 16:24:41 Sgeo, I recommend Haskell, C or erlang 16:25:06 Some of Gnome is written in Vala nowadays. <-- I never heard of Vala 16:25:24 XChat is more Gtk+ than Gnome; I don't think it uses very many Gnome-desktopy libs at all. 16:25:50 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:25:56 And anyway, people target Gnome with C++ (gtkmm) and C# (Gtk#) somewhat often nowadays too. 16:25:57 Vala uses reference counting. I remember hearing something bad about reference counting? 16:26:14 I want to wean myself off of C# 16:26:20 It's not real garbage collection, that's I guess what's mostly bad in it. 16:26:24 -!- aliseiphone has joined. 16:26:33 fizzie, I used GTK#. Buggy stuff 16:26:36 Perl does mostly reference-counting too. 16:27:00 ref counting works well as long as you have no cycles 16:27:03 I've used Gtk# now and then, and it's certainly been improving a lot. 16:27:16 Wait, Mono is decent? 16:27:24 if you _do_ have cycles ref counting is messy 16:27:31 The documentation's still very spotty, and the API glue is not quite all there. 16:27:36 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:27:49 Sgeo, sure with GTK# if you want GUI it is quite okay if you insist on C# 16:27:51 -!- aliseiphone has joined. 16:27:56 which is IMO a shitty language 16:28:07 Writing GUIs in a non-strict language seems a bit weird... 16:28:20 Phantom_Hoover, such as? 16:28:26 Haskell, say. 16:28:31 oh right 16:28:36 strict in that sense 16:28:52 Mono's WinForms reimplementation is very non-decent, I hear. Gtk# is probably the best thing for GUI in Monoland. 16:29:06 Oh, and MonoDevelop's a bit buggy. 16:29:21 I used kate with mono 16:29:24 works well 16:29:27 build system was make 16:29:30 AnMaster, what's wrong with C#? Not that I like it or anything; I just don't know what's wrong with it. 16:29:34 Vala: base call inside constructor 16:29:35 <3 16:29:40 http://live.gnome.org/Vala/QuickIntroForCSharpProgrammers 16:29:51 I've used Nant for building (it's very ant-inspired) and it works pretty well, but the Emacs C# mode is not so good. 16:30:05 Does SharpDevelop work with Mono? 16:30:23 Sgeo, saner naming conventions in vala 16:30:26 more C-like 16:30:48 * AnMaster likes lower_and_underscore 16:31:21 Ok, Vala is starting to look really nice 16:31:31 -!- lonelyfetus has joined. 16:31:38 Sgeo, and afaik sharpdevelop uses lots of windows specific stuff 16:31:46 like native code 16:32:19 Are there any reasons not to use Vala? 16:32:25 I have no idea 16:32:28 I never heard of it before 16:32:30 AnMaster, hyphens are The True Way. 16:32:49 http://live.gnome.org/Vala 16:32:50 Phantom_Hoover, oh yes for languages that allow it I agree 16:32:50 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:32:57 Phantom_Hoover, like lisp variants 16:33:13 But *only* Lisp variants, unfortunately... 16:33:33 -!- aliseiphone has joined. 16:33:45 Well, Agda has Haskell-derived syntax and has huge freedom in names, but it's hardly used for much. 16:34:03 Phantom_Hoover, erlang could allow it 16:34:09 but you would need to quote everything 16:34:17 'like-this' 16:34:20 That's just stupid. 16:34:29 Phantom_Hoover, well function names are any valid atoms 16:34:44 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if it works in GAS or NASM. 16:34:45 atoms are either [a-z][A-Za-z0-9_]+ 16:35:04 or '.*' (with \' for embedding ' iirc) 16:35:45 Phantom_Hoover, so you could have 'This is a function with spaces' and the null function '' 16:35:46 Sane people write applications in GAS or NASM. 16:35:53 cpressey, XD 16:36:13 cpressey, sane people do cat > a.out. 16:36:19 No, wait. 16:36:19 cpressey, btw this work for module names too in erlang 16:36:28 cpressey, though I could never get the module '' to work 16:36:40 but ones with spaces worked fine 16:36:48 Sane people do cat > /dev/sda and write an OS that is their application. 16:36:57 Oh, fuck you, Vala 16:37:01 Sgeo, ? 16:37:12 "Broadly speaking there are two types of data in Vala: reference types and value types." 16:37:19 Sgeo, yes? 16:37:23 Sgeo, that's like C 16:37:31 pointers and data 16:37:48 * Sgeo blinks 16:37:57 * Sgeo was thinking more in terms of C# nightmarishness 16:38:03 (function pointers being kind of their own weird sort of pointers) 16:38:22 (in C that is) 16:38:23 No, it's not like C; C doesn't hide the pointeriness. Well, unless you manually hide it inside a typedef, but still. 16:38:40 Sgeo, what's C# like? 16:38:57 Actually, what's wrong with C# in the first place? 16:39:29 Well, in relation to reference vs. value, it's a weird division 16:39:34 EMCA. Microsoft 16:39:49 Some types (types that are derived from System.Value) are value. The rest are reference 16:40:05 And System.Value and derived seem.. a bit magical 16:40:32 nice vala has lambdas 16:41:04 Dear god, Facebook has a "Visual Basic sucks" group. 16:41:31 Sgeo, can you derive your own from System.Value. One that isn't an enum I mean 16:41:47 Phantom_Hoover, I agree that VB sucks 16:41:55 You can write structs in C#; those are value types. 16:42:01 ah yes 16:42:05 AnMaster, I don't know if you can do it directly, but "struct" in C# just means derived from System.Value 16:42:14 And it's System.ValueType, not System.Value. 16:42:17 Oh 16:42:20 >.> 16:42:20 Sgeo, what about a new integer? 16:42:29 Not sure 16:42:38 new 256-bit floating point? 16:42:58 AnMaster: "int" is just a type alias for System.Int, which inherits from System.ValueType. 16:43:07 Sorry, System.Int32. 16:43:44 All languages suck. 16:43:45 fizzie, yes 16:43:48 but those are magic afaik 16:44:00 They're not *very* magic, just a bit magic. 16:44:07 fizzie, still magic 16:44:11 THEY'RE LIKE SUPER-MAGIC 16:44:24 Mostly there's constant-value propagation in the compiler, and literals, that you won't get in your 256-bit float. 16:44:51 -!- lonelyfetus has left (?). 16:45:07 fizzie, hm 16:45:20 Oh, and you can only have "const" fields of built-in integers. 16:46:04 and mine would be reference type I bet 16:46:33 Hmm? Well, if you mean you would make it a reference type, then yes. 16:46:39 But if you want a value type, you can have one. 16:46:45 fizzie, really? 16:46:46 how? 16:46:49 as a struct? 16:46:51 By making a struct, yes. 16:46:55 hm 16:47:12 I dislike magic 16:47:13 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:47:13 Then it's passed by value, and local variables of it contain the value, and so on. 16:47:17 which languages has no magic? 16:47:27 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..). 16:47:28 non-trivial that is 16:47:29 AnMaster: Define it 16:47:32 -!- aliseiphone has joined. 16:47:40 cpressey, good question 16:47:44 I don't know 16:47:46 Go for simplicity, and most of the magic seems to disappear. 16:47:52 asm? 16:47:55 perhaps 16:48:02 ooh I know, hardware 16:48:06 Perhaps, though assembler pseudo-ops are a bit magicky. 16:48:16 well, true 16:48:25 Things that expand to more than one opcode, I mean. 16:48:37 fizzie, I'll take a VLSI design tool :) 16:48:54 "Vala performs a basic nullability check on the method parameters and return values. " 16:48:55 Yeah, no magic there. 16:48:56 Ooooooh 16:48:57 There's not much magic in BrainFuck, at least according to my unexplicable definition. 16:49:00 I like this language 16:49:27 Perhaps, though assembler pseudo-ops are a bit magicky. Things that expand to more than one opcode, I mean. <-- so more like macros? 16:49:40 macros are not very magic at all 16:50:00 Yes, but they're macros that you didn't define anywhere. 16:50:03 So, magical. 16:50:16 fizzie, try this: echo | gcc -dM -E - 16:50:23 that should give you some built in defines 16:50:25 of gcc 16:50:53 only constant defines, none with parameters afaik 16:50:54 Things like MIPS's 32-bit load immediate, which expands to two instructions, since there are no 32-bit immediates in there. 16:51:12 fizzie, so they are declared in a built in header 16:51:48 No, because you can't undef them with the macro-definition tools. 16:51:56 okay that is magic 16:52:04 (Disclaimer: perhaps you could, in some assemblers. I don't think I've ever tried.) 16:52:24 TASM would do short-jump optimization and such. Somewhat magical perhaps. 16:52:46 NASM does that if you ask, but it's so useful I can't be angry at the magick. 16:53:18 Especially since it doesn't do it by default, on the assumption that you'd like to know exactly how wide instructions you get. 16:53:25 hm 16:53:26 I'd rather ask. I don't know if you could turn it off with TASM, it was sometimes annoying. Actually I think that was one of the motivations for the design for it in NASM 16:53:39 Basically, yes. 16:53:40 fizzie: Yes. 16:53:54 nice 16:54:04 I tend to prefer gas however 16:54:09 One of the primary design goals was to make it possible to tell what opcode would be generated just by looking an a single source line. 16:54:11 saner asm syntax 16:54:16 "Saner", bah. 16:54:21 AnMaster, really? 16:54:31 fizzie, you don't like AT&T syntax? 16:54:36 %s and $s and the like? 16:54:42 Phantom_Hoover, indeed 16:54:44 -!- Arzgarb has left (?). 16:54:48 AnMaster, why? 16:55:05 Phantom_Hoover, I find intel syntax pretty much unreadable 16:55:07 Percent signs and dollar signs in programming languages just scream sanity to me. 16:55:09 AnMaster: There's nothing saner in -4(%ebp, %edx, 4) compared to [ebp + 4*edx - 4]. 16:55:13 Vala supports RAII 16:55:17 * Sgeo is squeeing 16:55:38 AnMaster, why? 16:55:45 Phantom_Hoover, don't know 16:55:48 mov eax, 3 16:55:54 What's unreadable about that? 16:55:59 fizzie, well neither is sane. 16:56:13 Phantom_Hoover, because you meant mov 3,%eax really 16:56:17 AnMaster, what about AT&T's insane addressing syntax? 16:56:20 you messed up the order of the parameters 16:56:28 Everyone should use Vala! 16:56:30 * Sgeo goes insane 16:56:35 Phantom_Hoover, I admit that is somewhat worse perhaps. But still not very bad. 16:56:50 mov [rax+4*rbx-8], 3 16:56:52 I drew this. http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2206/spaceman.png 16:56:59 AnMaster: Like you should use "42 = b" to put value 42 into variable b? 16:57:00 Phantom_Hoover, see you put the target first 16:57:10 What's so crazy about that? 16:57:10 I felt like making something that would remind me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G7h0fegS-w&feature=related :P 16:57:29 fizzie, no like I use "move x to y" or "Ans→X" on my TI-83+ 16:57:32 Compared to mov $3, -8(%rax,8,%rbx)? 16:57:55 Phantom_Hoover: You got that wrong; the scale value is last, not second. 16:58:06 Phantom_Hoover, that is insane because it is incorrect 16:58:09 Phantom_Hoover: It's obvious, you see! 16:58:14 fizzie, indeed 16:58:16 AnMaster, see? 16:58:20 Phantom_Hoover, no 16:58:30 and I'm not putting up with this trolling any more 16:58:33 got other stuff to do 16:58:35 Trolling? 16:58:50 bbl 16:59:14 Really, there's no reason why "target, source" would be any better than "source, target" (it's just a convention); and when it comes to addressing, [rax+4*rbx-8] is obviously better than -8(%rax, %rbx, 4), just because the first one uses the very same arithmetics used in everywhere else. 16:59:42 fizzie, thanks. 17:00:13 But which assembler would Buddha use? That's the question we really need to be asking. 17:00:23 fizzie, besides you forgot %rip. Do that as RIP-relative 17:00:54 I don't think there is a rip-relative form of *that*; there's just rip+displacement. 17:01:00 ah 17:01:18 I don't know how it's written in gas, either. "disp(%rip)"? 17:02:28 Probably not, since you'd like to point at a particular symbol, not try to calculate the actual displacement yourself. 17:02:46 fizzie, pretty sure yes 17:03:02 Oh, okay: you write it as "symb at rip(%rip)". 17:03:17 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:03:20 symbol(%rip) 17:03:21 afaik 17:03:32 -!- aliseiphone has joined. 17:03:38 I don't think it is symb at rip(%rip) 17:03:50 No, that just adds symbol to %rip. At least according to some very old mailing list messages. 17:04:07 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 17:04:08 ! @item AT&T: @samp{symbol(%rip)}, Intel: @samp{[symbol + 1234]} 17:04:08 ! Points to the @code{symbol} in RIP relative way, this is shorter than 17:04:08 ! the default absolute addressing. 17:04:08 ! @end table 17:04:09 But this was when the syntax was being debated, so maybe they stabilized to something else. 17:04:12 fizzie, diff from docs 17:04:23 found by google 17:04:36 I think the intel sample is wrong 17:05:05 The thing that strikes me is that gas was never intended to be human-writable. 17:05:12 Okay, so how *do* you write "symbol(%rip)" if you mean what it means when compared to everything else, e.g. "value of symbol + %rip"? 17:05:19 Not originally intended, I mean. Just as a backend for compilers. 17:05:30 fizzie, no idea 17:05:49 cpressey, yes and inline asm is how I use it most often 17:06:08 Inline assembly -- now THAT is magic ;) 17:06:18 cpressey, agreed 17:06:36 Oh, binutils does MMIX already? Heh. 17:07:00 cpressey, the only non-inline asm I written was an implementation of crt0.o 17:07:14 and that was h8300 asm 17:07:20 oh wait 17:07:26 I coded in PIC12F* asm too 17:07:39 don't remember any about that syntax 17:10:01 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:10:19 Oh, another AT&T dislike: if you want to say "mov eax, [foo+4*eax]" (addressing an array with 4-byte elements, say) you need to do "movl foo(,%eax,4), %eax" -- and that empty field in "(,x)" looks really silly. 17:10:26 Though it's not like you couldn't use Intel syntax with Gas. 17:11:00 fizzie, why would you want to use that messy intel syntax!? 17:11:13 Because it's better? 17:11:23 no 17:11:55 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 17:12:26 Oh, and *yet* another AT&T dislike: if you want a simple "mov eax, [foo]", you have to write it as "movl foo(,1), %eax" -- and that (,1) is even sillier. Quoth the manual: "Note that base and index are both missing, but there is only one `,'. This is a syntactic exception." And we all know exceptions are for bad. 17:12:44 " and that given a class and a subclass, a generic refined by the subclass can be used as a generic refined by the class." 17:12:46 BAD VALA 17:12:57 I don't want that unless I say I want that! 17:13:43 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:13:49 Intel syntax is very clean and readable. AT&T syntax is AGONY ITSELF 17:14:02 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 17:14:34 Sgeo: IIRC Java does that too, and I'm not sure why, but ISTR some theoretical problem with not doing it ("it's hard") 17:15:11 Wait, so covariance is the default in Java? 17:15:23 Or am I misunderstanding covariance or what they're saying here? 17:15:26 Sgeo: I *think* so but I might be hallucinating. 17:15:34 AnMaster, why do you think Intel syntax is messy, though? 17:15:54 Switching gears: why is it that http://esolangs.org/wiki/ redirects visibly to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page while starting from http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page you can use the Wiki just well with that arguably nicer URL? 17:16:22 Phantom_Hoover, mostly parameter order and stuff like 80h 17:16:30 h for hex? 17:16:33 wtf is that joke 17:16:52 Also re assemblers, the great majority of the paucity and goriness of their syntaxes comes from the fact that the first ones had to be hand-coded in machine language. 17:16:53 You can write 0x80 if you want. 17:16:53 fizzie, contact graue? 17:19:52 bye 17:19:54 -!- cpressey has left (?). 17:20:11 AnMaster, what's wrong with 80h in the first place? 17:20:31 FWIW, I mostly write 0x80 in NASM, except that the argument for "int" I tend to accidentally write "XXh", for hysterical raisins. 17:21:42 Every environment seems to have its own way of denoting numbers, anyway. Z80 assemblers (and many others like that) use $f00 as a hex prefix, and #01101 for binary-number prefix. 17:22:38 Phantom_Hoover, UGLY 17:22:53 AnMaster, if you don't like it, don't use it. 17:22:55 I'd guess gas likes "0xf00" primarily due to it's Unix, and therefore C, and therefore 0x-prefix background. 17:23:24 fizzie, indeed 17:24:07 Most of them understand multiple forms now. Though I'm not sure if gas in intel-syntax mode accepts XXh. Maybe it does. 17:24:12 -!- Madk has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:26:37 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and re gas + 16-bit: there's a rather funky ".code16gcc" directive, which can take a gcc-generated .s file (GCC itself being unable to generate 16-bit x86) and convert the contents so that you can stick that code into a 16-bit segment and it will run properly. (It's done by adding opcode and operand prefixes as necessary, so it still won't run on a pre-386, but at least it runs in a 16-bit segment.) 17:27:54 fizzie, but 16-bit is mostly useless except for boot loader code 17:28:03 and early early kernel 17:28:19 I expect going into 32-bit or 64-bit to be the first thing a kernel does 17:28:32 It's close to being the first thing, though it moves stuff around first. 17:29:02 okay that could be 17:29:08 maybe prints "loading..." or such too 17:29:26 On an EFI system, it's in 32-bit mode all the time, though. 17:29:37 well yes 17:29:49 It still annoys me that even x86-64 processors need to start in 16-bit real mode. 17:29:55 Phantom_Hoover, agreed 17:31:13 Oh, and a coreboot system runs in 32-bit mode very early too. :p 17:31:37 Phantom_Hoover: Here's that DOS .com thing I briefly mentioned; it does .code16gcc: http://pastebin.com/eChGDKDy 17:33:15 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:33:55 Incidentally, how does the processor control the hard drive once the BIOS is gone?? 17:33:58 s/??/? 17:34:04 -!- augur has joined. 17:34:19 Gone where? 17:34:20 Phantom_Hoover: It talks directly to the IDE controller. 17:34:33 Using in and out? 17:34:42 Also, the BIOS doesn't "go" anywhere. 17:34:54 It ceases to be functional when you're in 32-bit mode. 17:37:07 That is what I meant by "gone". 17:38:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:43:10 What the heck about that .code16gcc example? It appears to use data segment 0 with Axxxx addresses in rmode? 17:43:29 Ilari: If you were here when I talked about it, I did mention it shouldn't work, but works in dosbox. 17:43:38 I suspect dosbox isn't very careful about segment limits. 17:44:16 You can fix it pretty easily by initializing ds to 0xa000 up there and using offsets in [0, 320*200) if you like. 17:53:44 I just lost the game. 17:54:20 OK, I promise never to do that again. 17:57:34 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:58:14 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:59:37 * Sgeo wonders if Vala would make a good first language. 18:01:17 What makes a good first language, though? 18:01:36 Do you want everything abstracted away, so it's easy, or do you want to start low and work up? 18:02:15 Wait, GObject is C, isn't it? 18:02:22 Madness! 18:03:45 In other news, I've been drafting a little language. Now, it's very work-in-progress, and might not ever actually be anything more, but I put some preliminary specs -- boring -- and three example snippets (incl. the ubiquitous cat) -- hopefully a tiny bit less boring -- into my user page at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Fizzie 18:04:12 Phantom_Hoover: Vala is GObject without the PAIN and AGONY of GObject. 18:04:33 I haven't experienced the pain of GObject. 18:04:46 I avoid GUIs like the plague. 18:04:47 Just the MADNESS of it? 18:04:57 GObject and Glib are not gui-specific. 18:04:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GObject_example.png 18:05:25 I've written some non-GUI C that does glib; it's a reasonably sensible way of getting containers and such in. 18:05:34 For some values of "reasonable", anyway. 18:05:39 Unfortunately, Glib is a painful API. 18:05:43 (Possibly rather small ones.) 18:05:54 Primarily because it's freaking *object-oriented C*. 18:05:58 Well, it's certainly not *pleasant*. 18:15:14 Hence Vala 18:15:53 And/or an awesomely complex set of terrifying M4 macros. 18:16:13 M4! 18:16:25 Vala is impressive in that it makes me not vomit at the thought of using GTK in a program. 18:16:46 So you use KDE? 18:16:59 No. 18:21:22 XFCE? 18:21:25 So you use... pure XCB?! (Xlib's so last millennium.) 18:22:09 Phantom_Hoover: No. 18:22:15 fizzie: No. 18:22:49 CDE? 18:22:56 No. 18:23:11 LXDE 18:23:12 ? 18:23:50 XPDM? 18:24:05 Phantom_Hoover: No. 18:24:07 Gregor-P: No. 18:24:20 I'm having hard time thinking up more ridiculous suggestions. Win16? 18:24:25 (<3 XFCE, btw) 18:24:37 EDE, Étoile, Mezzo, ROX, UDE? 18:25:09 No, no, no, no, no, and (on Win16) HEEELLL NAW 18:25:10 Raw Enlightenment, xmonad, for the love of god, surely not TWM? 18:25:22 No, no, no. 18:25:37 * Phantom_Hoover reviews 18:25:42 Oh, wait, is it GNOME? 18:25:49 Isn't XFCE basically Gtk, anyway? As far as GUI toolkits go, at least. 18:25:55 NOOOO... 18:26:18 fizzie: It uses Gtk, but it's written by people who aren't pro-bloat anti-feature maniacs. 18:26:23 Oh, you don't bother with one of those decadent, capitalist GUI things. 18:26:32 (yes, pro-bloat anti-feature) 18:26:34 Phantom_Hoover: No. 18:27:02 A clue, then? 18:27:13 XUL?-) 18:27:48 (And what does the winner get?) 18:27:51 Phantom_Hoover: Box 18:27:56 -!- cpressey has joined. 18:27:57 fizzie: No. 18:28:02 fizzie: Also, AGONY ITSELF 18:28:08 MWAHAHAHAH 18:28:27 FluxBox? 18:28:32 I know only the Flux, Open and Black boxes. 18:29:31 pikhq, one of fizzie's? 18:30:24 Phantom_Hoover: Fluxbox! 18:30:31 Phantom_Hoover: You win AGONY! 18:30:47 Wooh..wait... 18:30:47 Phantom_Hoover: Congratulations on your new-won AGONY. 18:32:31 AgonyWM 18:32:47 Also known as CDE 18:34:22 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:34:46 -!- jix has joined. 18:36:47 JIX 18:36:54 OMG 18:38:18 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:48:20 -!- Leonidas has joined. 18:48:42 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:56:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:57:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:58:48 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 18:59:02 bbl 19:00:33 Deewiant: A rather action-filled one this time: "About NetHack: ! it's done with his intestines hanging out in steaming loops. instead he roared laughter, hands on a scare monster scroll..." 19:09:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:32:08 Gregor-P: yeah? 19:32:41 hi jix 19:32:44 been a while... 19:32:46 aliseiphone: How farest thou? 19:32:56 jix: Nothing, you just haven't been in #esoteric in forever :P 19:33:42 i haven't? 19:35:34 that's a bug then 19:41:42 I refer of course to an imperial forever, which is finite, not a metric forever. 19:42:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:42:47 Gregor-P, what type of infinity is metric forever? 19:43:17 Phantom_Hoover : it is defined as infinity seconds. 19:43:29 While the imperial forever is an infinity of forthnights 19:43:48 Unsigned, positive or negative infinity? 19:44:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:44:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 19:44:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:44:34 positive. 19:45:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:48:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:52:44 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:53:31 -!- cheater99 has joined. 19:53:36 -!- atrapado has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:54:00 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:54:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:02:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:03:39 -!- augur has joined. 20:28:02 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:28:38 Hmm... How to create wikipages? Just navigate to nonexistent page and tell it to create it? 20:29:01 Yep 20:29:18 Type in the name, there will be a "create that page" link 20:29:21 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 20:29:23 or just click on edit 20:30:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 20:30:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Client Quit). 20:30:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 20:31:49 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 20:32:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:33:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has left (?). 20:36:24 If you want, you can also just create a link to a nonexistent page, then follow the redlink there, but that way there'll be a broken link visible for a while, which is perhaps ugly. 20:45:24 -!- lulinha has joined. 20:45:24 -!- lulinha has left (?). 21:00:20 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:09:00 Why would it have Fumito Ueda's credit card numbers on it or something? 21:10:23 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:18:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:21:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit). 21:21:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:24:28 CakeProphet: I am quite sure that I do not code better when drinking. 21:27:32 Huh? 21:27:39 That would indeed seem strange. 21:28:35 Also, he's only made one post today. 21:28:43 And that was just ":o". 21:29:13 Yeah, he raised the question last week sometime. 21:29:40 So have you only just gotten around to drinking and trying to code? 21:30:13 Well, yes, on the weekend. I mean, I'm sure I have before, but that was years ago, so I wanted some recent data. 21:30:34 Hardly rigorous. 21:33:02 Fitting, since this is hardly science. 21:43:46 -!- atrapado has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:44:39 -!- atrapado has joined. 21:52:29 Now, as for whether the activity of coding is more *interesting* while under the influence... well what isn't. 21:55:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:01:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:01:16 -!- augur has joined. 22:13:28 -!- atrapado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:13:43 -!- atrapado has joined. 22:17:37 cpressey: hahaha. yeah. I can't say I've ever tried. 22:23:42 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 22:24:14 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 22:26:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:30:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:35:41 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:37:54 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:41:16 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 22:47:41 MonoDevelop for Windows apparently doesn't have Vala support :/ 22:48:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:49:05 oerj...ah, I can't be bothered. 22:49:30 apathetics anonymous 22:49:37 Why would you even use MonoDevelop -- a not-so-hot IDE -- for something so non-Mono as Vala? 22:50:10 What's wrong with MonoDevelop? 22:50:19 Also, other Vala IDEs... eh 22:50:50 ValaIDE has no autocompletion or similar, and the other options are text editor stuff, or a barely supported Eclipse thingy 22:51:17 -!- Behold has joined. 22:51:28 The bugs, for one thing. The Stetic gets often in a "needs a MonoDevelop restart" confused state where it e.g. can't show properties of anything. Okay, so Stetic problems aren't perhaps an issue for Valailing. 22:51:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:51:35 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 22:52:30 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 22:52:57 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:53:00 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 22:53:21 Ugh IDEs. 22:53:31 The autocompletion also seems very annoying to me. If I write "else" after an "if { ... }" block, it has an auto-complete "Template for 'else'" visible, and then if I try to press enter (so that I'd get "else\n", in preparation for a { on the next line) the enter just dismisses the autocomplete and leaves the cursor on the wrong line. 22:54:34 And sometimes (if it hasn't grok'd the preceding code, or things aren't built, or something) it autocompletes something completely ridiculous; like I have a local variable called "a", and I write "a" and space, and it auto-autocompletes in "AddNotification". 22:55:02 I meant for things like members of .. oh, you're referring to MonoDevelop's autocomplete in particular? 22:55:08 Yes. 22:55:20 VS sometimes does that if I'm doing something wrong syntactically 22:55:28 Like forgetting to give a member a name 22:56:04 Possibly I should just configure the autocomplete to activate only when I specifically ask for it, but then I'd probably never remember to use it. 22:56:20 Also the "GNU/Emacs" keybinding scheme leaves a lot to be desired. :p 22:56:52 (I'd really rather just stay in Emacs, but csharp-mode.el is completely refusing to work with Ubuntu's emacs-snapshot + whatever extra cruft I have collected myself.) 22:57:06 I just bind "pound-violently-on-keyboard" to "do-what-I-mean" 22:57:32 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info). 22:57:40 Oh, oh, and MonoDevelop's version control plugin only supports Subversion, not Git or anything. (Actually, maybe I should get working on that; they do mention Git support as a major TODO item there.) 22:58:24 -!- aliseiphone has joined. 22:58:30 Last time I used Eclipse (a while ago) I seem to recall I was equally annoyed at the autocomplete, so my experiences won't perhaps really translate over. 22:59:08 Even fizzie is coding C# now? 22:59:13 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:59:49 aliseiphone: Not *seriously*, just, you know, experimenting with things. Many young people do that, there's nothing wrong with me! Stop judging me! You don't understand! 23:00:03 AnMaster: Blurring is reversible. Delete. 23:00:13 fizzie: *snorts coke* 23:00:46 Why do we hate C#? 23:00:51 Eeeew. 23:00:55 I want to know! 23:01:02 I know nothing about it! 23:01:09 I don't hate C# 23:01:16 cpressey, not interested! 23:01:24 aliseiphone: hey carbonated beverages in your nose _hurts_ 23:01:25 Deja vu 23:01:31 cpressey: Don't you like C++, though? 23:01:34 i would not recommend it 23:01:53 AnMaster: fizzie: those plots of land are "allotments". 23:02:11 pikhq: "like" is not the verb I'd choose 23:02:20 pikhq: Eeeew C# or coke? :P 23:02:30 oerjan: I know 23:02:42 aliseiphone: C# 23:02:46 oerjan: once I had cola laughing out my nose 23:02:55 oerjan: it BUURNS 23:03:13 aliseiphone: so that's how you became a traumatized child. got it. 23:03:44 pikhq: "Mom... Dad... I use C#. (and heroin)" "C#?! Oh my fucking god! *sobs*" 23:03:58 oerjan: no that's just how I got my superpowers 23:04:05 ah. 23:04:17 my brother was mauled by bears in a cave when I was 3 23:04:22 there's the trauma 23:04:28 figures. 23:05:07 aliseiphone, what are your thoughts on Vala? 23:05:12 (Bears in the gay sense. And his brother was 19. And a willing participant) 23:05:16 AnMaster: Blurring is reversible. Delete. 23:05:18 context? 23:05:52 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:07:15 night → 23:07:34 Night AnMaster 23:09:15 AnMaster: Faces. 23:09:40 with a good medic. 23:09:49 Gregor-P: Just tell yourself that while you masturbate to my poor brother. 23:10:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:10:16 Yup, I do. 23:10:20 If Madk ever, ever calls piracy "stealing" again — 23:10:28 The bears will maul again. 23:10:44 Sweet. Post pics. 23:10:51 I'm trying to imagine a situation in which piracy actually is theft 23:11:02 I don't see any reason why the two are necessarily mutually exclusive, although it's hard to contrive a situation 23:11:04 I'd also say "or advocates commercial software" but, you know, start gently. 23:11:09 ais523: When you replace all instances of "copy" with "move". 23:11:13 Somehow. 23:11:16 ais523: How about actual piracy :P 23:11:17 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 23:11:22 Damn. I'm still a zealot, just one of a different ideology. 23:11:26 Oh well! 23:11:27 copyright infringement is nonetheless illegal, but for different reasons for theft being illegal 23:11:33 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:11:44 Gregor-P: I thought of that already 23:11:49 ais523: You say it like things have to be illegal for a reason. 23:11:49 but I mean, in the colloquial sense 23:11:56 Which isn't true. 23:12:02 aliseiphone: generally, there has to be at least half a reason 23:12:13 MPs or Congressmen don't stay brainwashed /all/ the time 23:12:22 ais523: Yes, but the reason can easily be that Congressmen are idiots. 23:12:27 ais523: One eighth of a reason. Let's say. 23:12:33 hmm, I'll buy that 23:12:35 See, for instance, how programming is illegal. 23:12:46 pikhq: are you referring to software patents? 23:12:51 Yes. 23:12:53 Yes. 23:13:11 Being a mindreader is such fun. 23:13:28 such a pity that In re Proudler isn't precedent-setting 23:13:33 * Sgeo pokes aliseiphone 23:13:40 There might also be someone's reason; like "don't want to lose our money-making business so let's lobby all this stuff is criminal". 23:13:44 Sgeo: Vala. — 23:13:58 Such a pity that it's only illegal, and not criminal, to program. 23:14:06 Should be a felony or something. Much more interesting. 23:14:24 cpressey: I imagine most people don't even realise there's a difference between those two words 23:14:32 It has, coincidentally, *ceased* to be a crime to watch DVDs on Linux. 23:14:39 aliseiphone, yes, if you've played with it, any thoughts? 23:14:52 pikhq: it never was in the first place, but there's only just been precedent about it 23:15:14 Sgeo: It's C#-ish — not so good; but it is mostly tasteful. Makes GObject sane, wow. Nothing astonishing. But good, good. Please, look at Genie; an alternative "syntax/language" for Vala like Python without the crap. 23:15:17 are you talking about the recent ruling that anti-circumvention measures that only prevent use and not copying aren't protected by the DMCA? 23:15:18 ais523: The law made circumvention devices entirely illegal. 23:15:40 pikhq: well, the law was about anti-copying circumvention devices 23:15:42 I recommend Vala or Genie to anyone who wants to make a GTK+ program, or whatever. 23:15:44 and DeCSS doesn't stop copying at all 23:16:07 you can just to a byte-for-byte, or even pit-for-pit, copy and it'll work fine 23:16:10 The one that said that circumvention of DRM that is not being used to copy is not protected by the DMCA. 23:16:18 Any good Vala IDEs for Windows? ValaIDE doesn't really seem to be all that nice, and MonoDevelop on Windows supposedly doesn't support Vala 23:16:18 yep 23:16:24 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:16:24 There's been *two* landmark cases regarding that law today. 23:16:25 ais523: pit? 23:16:41 aliseiphone: the individual unit of data-carrying on CDs and DVDs 23:16:42 Sgeo: Emacs. Don't complain. Just use it. 23:16:47 Wasn't it recently that they (in the states) almost made not abiding to website's terms of service a felony (through the computer fraud and abuse and whatever "hacking" laws)? I seem to have read some EFF victory-of-sanity in a higher court on this. 23:16:51 Yeah it sucks. So does everything. 23:16:54 aliseiphone, does it have an Intellisense-like feature? 23:16:57 it's not quite the same as bits, because you can't have two 1s in a row the way they work physically 23:16:57 fizzie: Yes. 23:17:05 so there's a small level of encoding to translate sets of pits into bytes 23:17:30 aliseiphone doesn't know everything? 23:17:30 Sgeo: Probably somewhere. But don't use it! GTK and GLib names are quite short. Make yours too. 23:17:37 US legislators seem to feel that computers are magic devices with completely and utterly different standards of sanity. 23:17:52 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:17:55 Sgeo: No! I was just asking ais523 for the benefit of everyone else. 23:17:57 >_> 23:18:00 (also, I think you have to have a 1 every now and then in order to stop the laser getting confused as to where on the disk it was) 23:18:04 I think, besides non-workiness, the lack of Intellisense-like thing is my only complaint about ValaIDE 23:18:20 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 23:18:23 And it's ugly, but that doesn't count as a complaint. 23:18:31 Sgeo: hey, aliseiphone isn't a qualified electronic engineer 23:18:34 "Computers mean that IT MAKES SENSE TO MAKE IT A CRIME TO MODIFY ANYTHING. ALSO, MONOPOLIES HELP COMPETITION! DIGITAL IS MAGIC!" 23:18:57 http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif This is my response. 23:18:57 Sgeo: Stop becoming dependent on Intellisense. It's a code smell; a symptom. 23:19:13 it's OK for me to know something he/she doesn't if it's my (ex-)job to know 23:19:13 Windows libraries make it necessary with verbosity. 23:19:21 GLib/GTK don't! 23:19:23 aliseiphone: Intellisense is a symptom of the language, not the IDE 23:19:27 well, the libraries 23:19:33 ais523: I know. 23:19:38 That's what I said. 23:19:40 I wouldn't like to program in Java without an intellisense equivalent 23:19:46 aliseiphone: IRC messages crossing 23:19:46 It's convenient not having to look stuff up 23:19:50 I wouldn't like to program in Java. 23:19:54 I'm saying Vala doesn't need it. 23:20:00 Sgeo: ?? 23:20:10 for Perl, I make do with M-x perldoc 23:20:14 Sgeo: You use methods based on name? 23:20:19 some langs, like Underload, I can do without documentation at all 23:20:27 Without checking how they work fully? 23:20:34 Wow... 23:20:39 aliseiphone, what if I fully know how it works, but the name escapes me offhand 23:20:55 >.> 23:21:05 aliseiphone: I generally use NetBeans autocomplete to get a list of plausible names, and then load the javadoc 23:21:08 Sgeo: Then quickly google it. You gotta anyway to research algorithms and stuff. 23:21:30 but actually, its main use is that method names are /so long/ 23:21:36 the ability to "tab-complete" them is massively useful 23:21:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 23:21:39 Yeah, google is (sad or no) the only means I use to find out the method or function I want. 23:21:56 I do most of my programming when I'm not online 23:21:58 Sgeo: In fact since glib gtk classes tend to be quite small and docs are good 23:21:58 Yeah, in Microsoftland, they like to give obscenely long names to everything. Intellisense just saves you hours of typing. 23:22:05 but I have a (legal, I even read the license!) offline copy of the Java documentation 23:22:06 just google the class name 23:22:16 aliseiphone, I'm thinking about making a .vapi for the AW SDK 23:22:51 aliseiphone: heh, even when I'm online I don't use a search engine, but rather the list of all classes in the API documentation 23:22:52 Sgeo: Anything but that...! 23:22:58 I wonder what's up with my huge distrust of search engines 23:23:18 perhaps it's knowing how they work 23:23:22 ais523: google is like ctrl+f except it knows what site I want 23:23:25 it's great! 23:23:28 RÊ€RÊ€R! 23:23:33 For Mono-stuff I've been using monodoc-browser for docs; it's funny because it has "edit" buttons on every page, plus a "upload contributions" tool to send out your edits. 23:23:38 near useless for actually searching though 23:23:55 Almost like a wiki, except not at all! 23:23:59 offline wiki 23:24:12 IIRC the published-book subset of Wikipedia comes with a postcard you can use to mail in edits 23:24:16 I wonder if anyone uses it 23:24:24 no 23:24:25 Have I mentioned recently that Hackiki is the greatest idea in wiki software since the invention of the wiki itself? 23:24:31 I feel I have been negligent in mentioning this fact. 23:24:40 It would be if those contributions would get automatically accepted. I think there's some sort of review thing. 23:24:42 Gregor-W: Gay bear wikis. Duuude 23:24:55 Did I just totally outclass your idea or WHAT 23:25:07 (WHAT is not an option) 23:25:10 Uhhhh, you just described a wiki's content, not its software :P 23:25:15 No. 23:25:19 I didn't. 23:25:19 * cpressey sads 23:25:22 You could easily make a gay bear wiki with Hackiki :P 23:25:24 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:25:26 That's the amazing thing. 23:25:35 I'm talking about the software. 23:25:47 cpressey: :( 23:26:03 I disrespectfully disagree :P 23:28:34 aliseiphone, should I make a Lua thing for the AW SDK, or a .vapi for the AW SDK? 23:30:32 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 23:30:45 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:30:50 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 23:31:55 who was it mentioning nomic the other day? was it here? 23:32:00 quite possibly 23:32:04 there are several nomic players here 23:32:14 and so conversation can drift to that topic from time to time 23:32:23 Nomic was mentioned in #nethack recently 23:32:24 the correct channel for nomic discussion is ##nomic, although it's often inactive 23:32:29 Sgeo: that was me by mistake 23:32:37 got the wrong channel with a name starting with n 23:32:39 Yes, but it was still mentioned =P 23:32:43 ah. I'll have to wander over there some time. 23:32:43 when trying to explain how to get the op list for a channel 23:32:53 * Sgeo remembers 23:32:55 I'm normally willing to chat there even when nobody else is 23:33:07 someone mentioned implementing nomic in his esolang-in-development 23:37:32 I was wondering if I could get some of the subset of nomic players that also love the code in a game of programmer's nomic 23:37:45 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:37:47 or some ideas on http://localhost:8080/cgi/fossil/index 23:38:10 I don't happen to be running a server on localhost. 23:38:16 argh 23:38:35 http://nomjyc.ath.cx:8080/cgi/fossil/index 23:38:49 sorry about that. 23:41:51 Ilari: ok this may be a mean thing to mention, but you used exactly _one_ indefinite article in your wiki article, and you got the a/an distinction wrong XD 23:42:10 * oerjan is adding more as he speaks 23:42:20 -!- ivancastillo75 has joined. 23:43:00 Escriba el texto aquí....So how many real initiates are on line? 23:43:12 Oooh. 23:43:14 Um, three. 23:43:33 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:43:35 Whats the topic at this point? 23:43:39 Actually, I don't think the AW SDK works with GCC on Windows 23:43:43 esoteric programming languages! 23:43:44 it always is 23:43:45 ivancastillo75: Haha 23:43:53 ivancastillo75: Sacrifice a goat 23:43:59 ais523: Hush you! 23:44:00 aliseiphone: you're not helping... 23:44:05 Jeez. The idiots we get! 23:44:08 fungot: you know the topic... 23:44:08 ais523: thanks for the log comment was just so ridiculous that they even continue making the series, and i 23:44:09 print("ivancastillo75"); 23:44:24 Hm 23:44:39 ivancastillo75: Contemplate the significance of sleeping Ariadne! 23:44:50 ivancastillo75: your belief system is mindless dogma like the rest. this is not the true path to enlightenment... and we are not the ones you are searching for. 23:44:51 Chatter ivan = new Chatter.wrong_esoteric("ivancastillo75"); 23:45:21 Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ? 23:45:30 (and no, we don't know where the right one is. But if anyone finds out, let us know, so we can redirect other people who come here by mistake) 23:45:37 ivancastillo75: that's depressingly accurate 23:45:49 oerjan: It's surprisingly hard work, considering it's nothing. 23:45:54 ivancastillo75: Whereas mindless Latin 23:45:55 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 23:46:01 `addquote Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ? 23:46:02 Idiotic beliefs — 23:46:04 so true 23:46:08 Those are "something"? 23:46:10 198| Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ? 23:46:26 ais523: Clearly the "right one" would be well hidden. In plain view, no less. 23:46:35 I hate occultists. They're religious people who can't even admit it ... 23:46:37 What we supposedly talk about is weird languages that no sane person wants to know. 23:46:45 aliseiphone: would you like to be banned? 23:46:56 Sgeo: that actually isn't that far off the other meaning of "esoteric" 23:47:00 oerjan: I said nothing! 23:47:21 oerjan: but i'm fairly sure that wouldn't last. 23:47:22 So is any one the least bit interested in finding the path? 23:47:33 ivancastillo75: Yes. 23:47:35 ivancastillo75: I only ask that you consider the value of exploring strange programming languages as a path. 23:47:39 If you really want a path, make your own. 23:47:46 ...turns out you might already be on it. 23:47:52 Stop looking. 23:48:12 I really mean no harm in any way shape or form to anyone in this chat room. 23:48:16 * Sgeo remembers when a cultist of some anti-color cult came into AW 23:48:24 aliseiphone: you're insulting someone, and you started it 23:48:26 ivancastillo75: And us none to you. 23:48:34 ivancastillo75, we know, but this isn't a discussion about supernatural topics 23:48:36 oerjan: I insulted nobody. 23:48:42 Idea: Supernatlang 23:48:46 23:49:04 Sgeo: grr, now this channel is no longer well-formed XML! 23:49:07 The cruddiest of all names. 23:49:16 someone might have put the closing tags in someday... 23:49:18 I JUST HAVEN`T HAD ANY REAL MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION SINCE I GOT BACK FROM XIBALBA-BE, IN CHICHEN-ITZA 23:49:35 * Gregor-W just got capsploded. 23:49:40 ivancastillo75: TOTALLY 23:49:50 ivancastillo75: CAPITALS ARE MEANINGFUL 23:49:53 ivancastillo75: i find that i don't need to find the path, i'm being dragged along it no matter what i want 23:49:59 ivancastillo75, we have meaningful conversation. More meaningful if you're a computer science person 23:49:59 DON'T YOU THINK 23:49:59 put it this way: freenode is a network about open-source progamming 23:50:01 Or a math person 23:50:08 therefore, channels there tend to be implicitly programming-related 23:50:18 ais523: Save the 86857756 social channels. 23:50:31 aliseiphone: officially discouraged, surely? 23:50:44 ais523: Only de facto. 23:50:45 if this channel really was a social channel, it would be better at it 23:50:53 and you mean "de jure", surely? 23:50:55 I think #defocus is an official channel 23:50:59 "de facto" means "in practice" 23:51:07 Well, oerjan, don't be so weak willed!! 23:51:16 ais523: Freenode is Wikipedia and WordPress fanboy etc.; OFTC is the programmer's network 23:51:21 ais523: er, ofc 23:51:36 aliseiphone: I can see how Wikipedia would fit on Freenode 23:51:43 the mess that is Wikipedia IRC channels is rather unrelated 23:51:53 as in, the fact that it doesn't work in practice doesn't preclude it being correct in theory 23:51:55 ais523: *fanboys I meant to say 23:52:04 that word is important :P 23:52:17 it is outside the and 23:52:18 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:52:20 not in it 23:52:36 * ais523 vaguely wonders what the strangest programming-related concept with fanboys is 23:52:39 ivancastillo75: You may or may not be able to find meaningful conversation here. I sometimes do. 23:52:54 What a sad statement X-D 23:52:56 Depends a lot on your proclivities, I suppose. 23:53:00 ivancastillo75: but the meaningful conversation probably isn't going to be on a topic you want to discuss 23:53:14 cpressey: it's a pity really, this channel could be really useful and productive 23:53:19 for esolang meanings of "productive" 23:53:25 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 23:53:30 ais523: I'm just happy it's not a pit. 23:53:30 thank you for being honest! 23:53:58 ivancastillo75: It's all lies! 23:54:07 * Sgeo compiles ivancastillo75 23:54:12 We're really an esoterica channel. 23:54:12 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:54:24 Bet we got you there eh? Haha! Welcome! 23:54:35 >_> 23:54:42 Layers upon layers, you see... 23:54:46 Here, we all speak PSOX. 23:54:47 alisephone are you a programmer too? 23:55:01 * Sgeo waits for someone to slap him 23:55:09 ivancastillo75: All of us are :P 23:55:15 Sgeo: Word, bro. 23:55:31 * Gregor-W adds a slap command to Plof then invokes it to slap Sgeo. 23:55:47 * Gregor-W also adds a "slappage" page to Hackiki and adds Sgeo to its index. 23:55:58 What's :P 23:56:11 :P is sticking your tongue out 23:56:13 * Gregor-W furthermore writes a Slapper class in Glass and applies its "slap" method to Sgeo. 23:56:57 :P is a flag on your colon. 23:57:43 I feel like I'm in Wonderland! 23:57:45 ivancastillo75: it's a smiley. turn your head to the left and it looks like a face. 23:58:24 Does anybody here speak plain English? 23:58:38 I get it! 23:58:39 ... 23:58:44 Only on Tuesdays. 23:58:51 ais523, aliseiphone and others speak only the Queen's English. 23:58:57 Gregor-W: that term's outdated 23:58:57 Most of the rest of us speak only Yankee. 23:58:59 ivancastillo75: Well, you have to take into account that this *is* the Internet, and all. 23:59:08 there's evidence that the Queen's accent has slipped towards Cockney 23:59:08 cpressey: It IS? 23:59:12 ivancastillo75: Plain? I speak'th not the plain English. 23:59:16 Oh boy. I had no idea. 23:59:24 OFF WITH HER HEAD 23:59:34 aliseiphone: You took a wrong turn at that truck stop outside of El Paso, I tell ya.