00:00:37 <Sgeo> I thought you meant a picture of _you_
00:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "Evander Berry Wall (1860–1940) was a New York dude[1] who became famous in the 1880s for his extravagantly refined look."
00:03:07 <Phantom_Hoover> That is the single best opening to a Wikipedia article.
00:04:45 <aliseiphone> http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Jesus_(carnation_bread)
00:05:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Will you promise not to be confrontational if I tell you that he's been turning up at RationalWiki lately?
00:07:01 <Sgeo> All because I decided to use "eir"
00:08:19 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Lumenos.
00:08:23 -!- Lumenos has changed nick to Sgeo.
00:08:30 <Sgeo> That's a registered nick
00:08:38 <Sgeo> Let me just reassure everyone that I'm not em
00:08:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU
00:09:22 <Sgeo> oerjan, you don't love me anymore?
00:09:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Lumenos.
00:09:41 -!- Lumenos has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
00:10:33 <cpressey> Is there a name for the problem that is halfway between SAT and TAUT? (Do exactly half the assignments make the sentence true, the other half false?)
00:10:38 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: reminds me of the congo sapeurs
00:11:47 <cpressey> Complement of SAT (SATISFIABILITY)
00:12:23 <cpressey> But no, I don't know why complexity theorists like SHOUTING.
00:12:33 <oerjan> cpressey: seems connected to #P and PP
00:12:39 <AnMaster> cpressey, how can something be between SAT and TAUT?
00:12:49 <oerjan> #P asks for the exact count
00:13:07 <cpressey> AnMaster: Do exactly half the assignments make the sentence true, the other half false?
00:13:33 <AnMaster> cpressey, what if you have an odd number of assignments?
00:13:50 <oerjan> PP essentially asks for majority, although it's formulated as probability
00:13:54 <cpressey> There are 2^n possible assignments for n variables. How can that be odd?
00:14:55 <oerjan> also +-in-a-circle P asks whether the number is even or odd
00:15:21 <cpressey> oerjan: That last one sounds like it -- hard to Google that though
00:15:27 <AnMaster> that gives... half an assignment?
00:15:55 <oerjan> cpressey: um no it's not whether it's exactly half, it's whether the number is even or odd
00:16:07 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp-P
00:19:25 <oerjan> http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Garden#sharpsat is the SAT version for #P
00:20:16 <cpressey> oerjan: I'm naively trying to pessimize possible solutions to this problem
00:21:32 <cpressey> The idea of an adversary doesn't really apply to something like a boolean sentence
00:22:00 <oerjan> encoding an RSA factoring problem usually gives you something practically impossible to solve, afaiu
00:22:30 <cpressey> well, integer factorization is in both NP and co-NP, so...
00:22:51 <oerjan> and you can make it a SAT or TAUT problem as much as you want
00:23:02 <oerjan> cpressey: um no that's primality
00:23:15 <cpressey> oerjan: No.... PRIMES is in P, remember?
00:23:40 <oerjan> actually _finding_ a factor if you know it's a prime is not known to be in co-NP afaik
00:24:28 <oerjan> in fact testing whether there's a factor in a certain interval is NP-complete
00:24:29 <cpressey> Of course, P is in both NP and co-NP, but that's not what I/you meant
00:24:34 -!- coppro has joined.
00:24:53 <oerjan> (saw it in lipton's blog archive the other day)
00:25:13 <cpressey> "It is not known exactly which complexity classes contain the decision version of the integer factorization problem. It is known to be in both NP and co-NP."
00:25:20 <cpressey> wikipedia, the perfect authority
00:25:59 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_factorization
00:26:59 <oerjan> oh 1 < d < M, not M < d < N
00:27:07 <oerjan> might make a difference...
00:27:44 <oerjan> oh right it explains why
00:27:58 <oerjan> yeah, that applies only if the lower bound is 1
00:28:24 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Confrontational? I dislike RationalWiki. Doesn't mean I flip at its mention.
00:28:51 <cpressey> It also says " It is suspected to be outside of all three of the complexity classes P, NP-complete, and co-NP-complete." I don't know how it could be in NP (or FNP) and "outside of NP-complete" though...
00:30:09 <oerjan> NP-complete is a subset of NP, possibly strict.
00:30:39 <cpressey> Yeah, I never understood that.
00:30:42 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe for you. I just made what to me was an offhand remark.
00:30:43 <oerjan> "outside" doesn't mean "harder than", just not an element of
00:31:10 <cpressey> Yeah, math talk confuse english brain.
00:31:22 <oerjan> it can be harder than P but easier (in the reduction sense) than NP-complete and co-NP-complete
00:31:31 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: I mean no offence, you irrational Hellspawn, you.
00:32:53 <aliseiphone> So these are the dying moments of my last night as a sleeper.
00:32:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, isn't the only known PRIMES algorithm in P extremely slow? As in, exponential algorithms are faster for practical purposes?
00:33:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: _random_ algorithms are faster for practical purposes
00:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, I suppose you don't get holidays from /bin.
00:33:59 <cpressey> Well, *if* P = NP (I'm not entirely convinced by my own proof) then I bet some of these remarkably efficient algorithms work by creating a new "customized" Turing machine (or PL interpreter of whatever sort) on the fly and emulating it. Or perhaps several in sequence.
00:34:28 <aliseiphone> Even if P = NP the constant is probably huge.
00:34:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: also the random algorithms can be done in such a way as to give a certificate of certainty unless they fail, in which case you just retry
00:34:50 <cpressey> Create a TM which creates a TM which creates a TM which.... k times.
00:35:10 <Ilari> NP-complete is strict subset of NP unless P=NP. NP-complete and co-NP-complete are disjoint unless NP=co-NP (then NP-complete=co-NP-complete).
00:35:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, lets just get a quantum computer and be done with it
00:36:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'm not sure that a quantum computer can test primality any faster
00:36:05 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, flip a single bit and you segfault. <-- ECC used to be a lot more common in the early days of RAM
00:36:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm it can factor faster
00:36:19 <aliseiphone> & such an unassuming way it draws to a close. Don't I die at the end of tradgedies? Dammit, playwrite.
00:36:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, and if you can't factor, then you have a prime, right?
00:36:53 <AnMaster> or maybe I was correct to begin with
00:37:12 <oerjan> aliseiphone: btw it hasn't been proved that the constant power if P = NP has to be as big as 2, even...
00:37:29 <oerjan> the best bounds are somewhere between 1 and 2
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00:38:16 <aliseiphone> how many proofs depend on Riemann, Goldbach, Collatz :)
00:38:43 <Slereah> http://abstrusegoose.com/133
00:39:05 <oerjan> aliseiphone: lipton discusses at least 4 possibilities in one if his most popular blog articles: P=NP and fast, P=NP but huge exponent, P != NP and slow, P != NP but so small constants it still works in practice
00:39:40 <oerjan> (can you tell i'm slowly gobbling up his blog archive? :D)
00:40:01 <Slereah> aliseiphone : What's your point
00:40:32 <cpressey> My god, the P=NP argument works! <<falls off bike>>
00:40:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: note that quantum computers only give the correct answer with a certain probability, so you might _still_ want one of those certificates
00:40:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about the variant: P?=NP can't be proved with current axioms (that is, it is independent)
00:40:46 <oerjan> (for shor's factorization algorithm)
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00:42:56 <aliseiphone> you can't just have random shit be independent!
00:43:11 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think that may have been mentioned in the comments
00:43:18 <zzo38> I connected a few seconds ago I got a connection timeout (after sending PASS/NICK/USER), it didn't do that before. But now I connected it worked
00:43:31 <zzo38> Is my IRC client broken?
00:43:35 <zzo38> Or is the server broken?
00:43:39 <zzo38> Or something in between?
00:43:45 <cpressey> aliseiphone: It's certainly a possibility, that there is no proof we can make.
00:43:51 <Ilari> zzo38: Dunno. All kinds of strange transistent errors can happen.
00:44:08 <aliseiphone> cpressey: So P = NP but there is no P algo for NP?
00:44:40 <zzo38> I was trying to write a music synthesizer program so I wrote a music using QORCH
00:44:43 <cpressey> aliseiphone: More likely P != NP and there is no proof.
00:44:46 <oerjan> aliseiphone: there are at least two ways of having it be independent afaict: there is an algorithm that works but no proof that it works, or there's a proof that there's an algorithm but it's nonconstructive and doesn't _actually_ exist :D
00:44:46 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/RHYa
00:45:19 <cpressey> *I* didn't use the word "independent".
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00:45:45 <aliseiphone> oerjan: For the latter the constructivist in me punches you.
00:46:03 <oerjan> wait, of course i forgot the obvious third: no proof and no algorithm
00:46:04 <zzo38> This music is in 12-TET but the program QORCH supports just intonation as well, and even Bohlen-Pierce
00:46:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:46:29 <zzo38> You simply have to enter the correct parameters to the TEMPERAMENT or TUNING commands, to do it.....
00:47:13 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> That's nonsense! <-- indeed. But P!=NP might be true but unprovable or such. I can't see why that one is nonsense
00:47:25 <AnMaster> having P=NP and unprovable would be closer to nonsense though
00:48:05 <cpressey> Mathematics is not yet ready for such problems.
00:48:08 <zzo38> grumbles about destructivism
00:48:30 <zzo38> aliseiphone: Good night you are late!!
00:48:31 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, what about constructivism
00:48:31 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Yer stupid "unprovable" stuffs :P
00:48:32 <Sgeo> Here as in the realworld here, not the #esoteric here
00:48:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: an algorithm which works but no one knows _why_ it works...
00:48:40 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, um, such stuff exists
00:48:56 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, consider that thing about cardinality
00:49:10 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Yeah. But constructivist mathematics has much less.
00:49:16 <cpressey> We could have P algorithms for NP-complete problems, but we can't prove they are in P
00:49:41 <oerjan> cpressey: or we cannot prove they actually give the right answer
00:50:37 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> Well, goodnight for the last time here. <-- good night then ;P
00:50:48 <Sgeo> Oh, I see what independent means
00:50:57 <cpressey> Still, considering P?=NP to be independent is a nice mindbender trip: the algorithm version of non-Euclidean geometry
00:51:01 <aliseiphone> Independent X wrt ZFC: ZFCX and ZFCnotX are consistent relative to ZFC
00:51:03 <Sgeo> Same way that C is independent of ZF?
00:51:08 <oerjan> the fact that complexity theory relies so much on diagonalization just begs for the theory to get some of the undecidability that can entail, anyway...
00:51:22 <aliseiphone> Unprovable X in ZFC: X is true, no proof of X exists
00:51:46 <Sgeo> Bye aliseiphone
00:51:46 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
00:52:10 <cpressey> ZFC+CollatzAlwaysHalts vs ZFC+CollatzSometimesLoops
00:52:15 <AnMaster> cpressey, isn't the continuum hypothesis unprovable in ZFC too?
00:52:38 <zzo38> Prove that Z is a valid proof of X
00:53:10 <Sgeo> Independence is a bit mind-bending
00:53:18 <zzo38> (For arbritrary Z and X)
00:53:41 <Sgeo> That would render it a matter of opinion, wouldn't it?
00:53:51 <Sgeo> Which seems... unintuitive
00:53:58 <Sgeo> But intuition has no place, I guess
00:54:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: to me, it's just that the actual _algorithms_ involved means there are such a large number of different ways it could be independent
00:54:52 <oerjan> and also that unlike the ZF+C and CH cases it doesn't make sense to just pick one possibility and try to use it
00:55:18 <Sgeo> oerjan, that's what confuses me a bit about P!=NP being independent
00:55:30 <oerjan> because that gives you no actual practical algorithm
00:55:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, I love non-constructive proofs. Because they make ehird mad
00:56:20 <Sgeo> ehird is actually a constructivist?
00:56:36 <oerjan> he loves the constructive math used in theorem provers
00:56:48 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1026
00:56:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, why can't we have non-constructive theorem provers?
00:57:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: you can have them talk _about_ non-constructive math, of course
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00:58:16 <oerjan> but the ones based on higher order functions and the curry-howard isomorphism naturally have constructive stuff at their base, and deals with it more naturally. iiuc.
00:58:27 <Sgeo> "If you'd proven constructivism, you could use it in a proof. Since you're not allowing it in proofs, you haven't proven it, and so you must destroy your own constructivist programming! I'm Prozac the Bear!"
00:58:34 <zzo38> Go to Special:Random on Wikipedia and make a esolang about whatever comes up
00:58:48 <oerjan> Sgeo: is that an actual T&R quote?
00:59:00 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1027
00:59:30 <AnMaster> I read a bit of it, horrible drawing. Worse than xkcd even
00:59:47 <Sgeo> That's why the Cornersheep turned evil
00:59:59 <Sgeo> Now _that's_ a lie
01:00:44 <zzo38> I voted the second one. But is there a command-line version of those polls, too?
01:01:14 <Sgeo> Open it in elinks?
01:01:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: the horrible drawing is even used as a meta-joke. all the time.
01:01:32 <zzo38> Sgeo: No that is not what I mean
01:01:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes, it gets tedious very quickly
01:02:14 <zzo38> I mean like how sprunge has it you can send/receive file using that simple script, with curl
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01:04:36 <Sgeo> We were talking about Lumenos, which reminded me of Losethos
01:04:42 <Sgeo> Anyone want to talk about losethos>/
01:06:24 <Sgeo> http://www.losethos.com/
01:06:36 <AnMaster> zzo38, I repeat my questions: what polls
01:06:47 <Sgeo> AnMaster, the one in the topic
01:06:50 <zzo38> AnMaster: See the topic message
01:07:23 <oerjan> clearly it's a brand of cough drops that turned sentient
01:09:16 <AnMaster> okay even at the start of the page it fails
01:09:29 <AnMaster> you can not enter x86-64 mode without paging enabled
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01:11:03 <Sgeo> "As anyone will tell you,
01:11:03 <Sgeo> Linux is a just a kernel, but GNU/Linux is an operating system."
01:11:11 <Sgeo> I mean, some people are of that opinion, iirc
01:11:30 <AnMaster> of course, I don't use it like that either
01:11:45 <AnMaster> unless I'm trying to be very clear in the context of other userlands
01:12:32 <zzo38> I looked at some information about LoseThos now
01:13:57 <zzo38> I would have included a Forth system in it, but that's me....
01:14:37 <zzo38> I don't like some of the changes that LoseThos has difference from C
01:16:46 <AnMaster> Sgeo, about that OS, the author does seem reasonably skilled. Otherwise ey couldn't pull off such a compiler and so on
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01:20:40 <zzo38> augur: Do you mean vi improved?
01:20:54 <zzo38> I use it at Free Geek
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01:22:57 <augur> which vim do you use?
01:23:22 <zzo38> augur: Whichever one is included in Ubuntu LTSP, since that is what their computers use there
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01:24:44 <augur> im not sure how i feel about it
01:25:30 <zzo38> augur: I just use it because it is the one installed on there, they use Ubuntu and LTSP for everything there
01:25:54 <zzo38> Although they do not have the "mail" command installed
01:26:21 <augur> i like some of the features of it
01:26:34 <zzo38> I also like some of the features of vim
01:26:38 <augur> basically the editing featues
01:28:03 <zzo38> I would do some things differently, when I write Linux distribution I will probably write my own things in a way that is more better in my opinion instead. Like, one thing would be how the status bar is written, I would do it differently
01:28:57 <zzo38> Like, if you are recording a macro called "3" it will display "q3" in the status line, in insert mode it will display "i", it can display "v" for visual mode, and so on
01:29:08 <zzo38> And has position for each one so you can display multiples at once
01:29:12 <augur> i hate how in navigation mode the shit navigates by character tho
01:29:21 <augur> i find character navigation to be annoying
01:32:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, writing a new vim is a separate task from making a new linux distro
01:33:03 <Sgeo> At least, when I have to use a terminal editor
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01:34:43 <zzo38> AnMaster: It is, but if I write new Linux distro, I write a lot of new programs as part of that project too, because I can make it many differences, including new window manager, new text editor, new shell, and so on.
01:35:16 <AnMaster> new shell? I assume you will have the old one around still
01:35:24 <AnMaster> since stuff like configure scripts expect bash
01:36:44 <zzo38> AnMaster: I don't need configure scripts I can use some feature of CSPIDER (if it is a Enhanced CWEB program), or else enter some configure manually and differently, and then convert it
01:38:01 <AnMaster> zzo38, so your system won't be POSIX compatible then
01:38:49 <augur> how about textmate
01:39:21 <zzo38> AnMaster: I intend to make it enough POSIX compatible that most programs written for it in C (or other ways that compiles into a binary) will still run with little or no modifications, except possibly having to modify makefiles.
01:39:29 <augur> ok, alise isnt sane
01:39:48 <zzo38> Although the programs should still be changed to improve them to be better designed in the way of Arcane Linux.
01:40:09 <augur> theres a plugin for textmate called vimate
01:40:16 <augur> that adds on vi-like tools
01:40:30 <AnMaster> augur, just use emacs with viper-mode and be done with it :P
01:40:45 <augur> i really like textmate
01:40:50 <augur> but i like this modal stuff
01:41:04 <zzo38> AnMaster: I think I have also posted on this channel before, about the codenaming scheme I plan to use with Arcane Linux?
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01:41:55 <zzo38> AnMaster: The scheme is that the second version can be codenamed "Illimitable Illithid", the sixth version can be codenamed "Vancouver Island", and so on.
01:42:11 <zzo38> No relation to any other Linux distro codenaming scheme
01:42:32 <AnMaster> zzo38, hm? I don't see the logic in your scheme
01:42:51 <AnMaster> also "Vancouver Island" doesn't fit the obvious theme established by the first
01:42:55 <zzo38> AnMaster: And the first version can be codenamed "Initial". Now see if you can figure out its logic....
01:43:13 <AnMaster> zzo38, too tired and lazy to do so
01:43:16 <zzo38> If still not, I can give more clues even, or tell you the answer
01:43:47 <zzo38> OK, let's see if anyone else on here will figure it out
01:44:10 <oerjan> everyone gets it except AnMaster ;D
01:44:45 <oerjan> well everyone i've checked, anyway :D
01:45:02 <oerjan> although i think you mentioned it once before
01:45:23 <oerjan> well given that i'm the only other person i've checked...
01:45:25 <zzo38> I also mentioned that I mentioned it once before.
01:46:51 <zzo38> Does Sgeo figure it out?
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01:47:22 <Sgeo> I wasn't paying attention
01:48:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: Now you can read it and pay attention?
01:52:58 <zzo38> Some people might be confused because of "Vancouver Island" does not fit the theme established by the first, but actually it does fit the same theme, and in addition "Illimitable Illithid" is actually the second not the first
01:53:10 <zzo38> But that is OK if it is confusing, some people can figure it out or try to figure it out or not!
01:54:12 <zzo38> If you think there is an obvious theme established and then it doesn't fit, well, it is deceptive, it is not the obvious theme!
01:59:13 <zzo38> Please read this and write comment, especially if you play 4E: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/html/differences.html
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01:59:43 <zzo38> (I don't play 4E, I prefer 3.5E)
02:02:24 <zzo38> Icosahedral is the opposite of 4E do you think so?
02:04:05 <zzo38> Do you think "vegitabelation" is a good word for describing 4E?
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02:17:34 <augur> richard stallman, when he was younger, was a total hotty
02:25:37 <Gregor> Make his hair blond and you've got me :P
02:31:07 <Gregor> Probably neither, I actually have no idea what RMS looked like young :P
02:31:29 <Gregor> I was just applying the HAIR FALLACY (that all men with long hair look alike because that's their only distinguishing feature)
02:32:06 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, he had short hair. And no beard.
02:34:49 <augur> and was a total hotty.
02:41:20 <pikhq> More like total nerd.
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02:44:56 <pikhq> Gregor: Which is, of course, the best kind of dichotomy.
02:45:31 * Sgeo won't be watching Futurama as it airs tonight
02:45:58 <Sgeo> Anyone spoils me, I'll fake a call made from you to Mom's tech support
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04:01:47 <nooga> huh, do you guys ever sleep?
04:02:28 <nooga> i've been here almost whole day and it's like 5 in the morning here
04:02:35 <nooga> and you're still running
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04:04:22 <pikhq> They don't get sun there anyways; what does he care for circadian rhythm?
04:04:51 <nooga> in summer they've got everlasting day
04:04:59 <nooga> my brother complains about that
04:05:33 <oerjan> circadian rhythm means you only wake up every 17 years, right?
04:05:54 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:06:36 <nooga> i just got back from a party and i'm going straight to sleep
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04:15:26 <zzo38> What about 17 years?
04:16:22 <zzo38> O, I saw the log file now
04:16:37 <zzo38> I do not know the answer of that question, however.
04:22:10 <oerjan> and another pun goes *whoosh*, i see
04:23:04 <oerjan> (now it _does_ rely on you knowing a certain thing from biology)
04:41:02 <zzo38> I don't know biology much, I mostly study physics instead
04:41:33 <augur> guys, opinion needed
04:41:45 <augur> wisdom required tho likely to go unfound
04:43:20 <zzo38> I found that the negative array sizes trick in C is not only something I used, but now I also found it mentioned in section 5.10.1 of the GNU autoconf manual.
04:44:40 <augur> zzo38: unification
04:45:11 <zzo38> Unification of what?
04:45:45 <augur> if X and Y are variables, [1,X] = [Y,2] unifies with X = 1, Y = 2
04:46:31 <augur> [X,X] = [1,2] fails to unify
04:46:47 <zzo38> OK, I think I understand.
04:46:54 <augur> right? so, i have more of an opinion question than anything
04:47:11 <augur> if we define ~p to be the objects that *dont* unify with p
04:47:12 <zzo38> But in the second case, what about if you use the Perl6 feature to have multiple values at once (I think Perl6 does this?)?
04:47:31 <augur> so then 2 unifies with ~1
04:47:37 <augur> because ~1 means just "not 1"
04:47:44 <augur> anything except 1 will unify with ~1
04:48:00 <augur> ~X will unify with nothing, because everything unifies with X
04:48:01 <zzo38> Now I understand more better.
04:48:13 <augur> but heres the question, right
04:48:26 <augur> [1,2] = ~[2,3] will ofcourse work
04:48:39 <augur> [1,2] unifies with ~[2,3] because [1,2] does NOT unify with [2,3]
04:49:00 <augur> and similarly, [1,2] unifies with ~[2,X] because [1,2] cannot unify with [2,X]
04:49:37 <augur> [1,2] does definitely unify with [1,X]
04:50:41 <augur> but what about [1,X] ~[1,2]
04:50:54 <augur> [1,X] will unify with [1,2] yielding X = 2
04:51:06 <augur> so does that mean that [1,X] = ~[1,2] fails
04:51:19 <augur> or does it mean that it succeeds yielding X = ~2
04:51:32 <zzo38> Yes that is the difficult
04:52:48 <augur> i think in spirit the intent is that ~[1,2] should be anything but [1,2], right
04:52:54 <zzo38> I suppose you have to start at one thing at first and then break it in parts?
04:52:55 <augur> but dos that include variable bindings with it
04:53:10 <zzo38> Using only the valid ways of breaking the parts
04:53:11 <augur> well yes, i mean, i know how i'd get it to yield X = ~2
04:53:18 <augur> the issue is whether it SHOULD or not
04:54:56 <zzo38> I guess if ~[1,2] corresponds to anything other than [1,2] then [1,X] can unify [1,1] and [1,3] and [1,4] and so on, so it is ~2 but you should possibly ignore the cases [2,2] and [2,3] because those don't unify? I really don't know
04:55:19 <Gregor> Who controls esolangs.org? graue?
04:56:50 <zzo38> Gregor: I don't know. Does esolangs.org have a WHOIS service?
04:58:44 <zzo38> augur: Therefore it should be able to yield X = ~2 (I think)
05:00:01 <zzo38> In that case, also [1,X] = ~[2,2] means anything other than [2,2] so [1,X] = [1,2] is also OK and now it unifies everything, this way?
05:02:34 <augur> yeah, see, thats the tricky thing, right
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05:03:25 <augur> the solution i have for [1,X] = ~[1,2] is to turn ~[1,2] into the disjunction [~1,2] | [1,~2] | [~1,~2]
05:03:43 <zzo38> Yes, because if [1,X] = ~[1,2] yields X = ~2 then [1,X] = ~[2,2] should unify everything?
05:03:52 <augur> which would succeed as [1,X] = [1,~2]
05:04:19 <augur> but the same trick with ~[2,2] is to turn it into [~2,2] | [2,~2] | [~2,~2]
05:04:43 <augur> so [1,X] succeeds against [~2,2] and [~2,~2]
05:04:53 <augur> so X can be either 2 or ~2
05:05:01 <augur> which basically means anything at all
05:05:27 <zzo38> Yes, it is what I meant so it is OK
05:05:35 <zzo38> Do you need a special notation for this or is not needed?
05:08:49 <zzo38> I have posted first version of Enhanced CWEB by now. Enhanced CWEB version 0.1
05:10:37 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/
05:10:57 <zzo38> You can tell me if is good, comment, or any feature suggestion, question, etc
05:11:04 <zzo38> Or complain, if you really want to
05:11:32 <zzo38> augur: Have you ever used CWEB?
05:11:42 <zzo38> Now it is Enhanced CWEB, it is the improved version!
05:13:35 <zzo38> If you have a program to print DVI files, you can just print out the DVI files to read it
05:16:02 <augur> ive never heard of cweb before x3
05:17:36 <augur> well, a version of it
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05:18:47 <zzo38> Then probably you can print a DVI file? There is one new file called CSPIDER that is the new file I added (although I have also made many modifications to the other files). Please tell me if you have any comment about it.
05:18:56 <zzo38> What version of it do you have?
05:20:04 <zzo38> (Please note that .ZIP is not a tape archive, so you have to create a directory first before expanding, unlike tape archives where the directory will be created automatically)
05:20:33 <zzo38> CWEB is a system that does various things, one thing it does is allows you to print out the programs using TeX.
05:20:41 <zzo38> But it has other features too.
05:20:44 <Gregor> zzo38: ... that is neither a property of ZIPs nor TARs.
05:20:54 <Gregor> That's just a convention.
05:21:04 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, I know it is just a convention.
05:21:35 <zzo38> What I mean is that the convention for ZIPs is that you should create the directory yourself, while the convention for tape archives is that you don't need to, because the tape archive will do it for you.
05:22:14 <zzo38> The Wikipedia article for CWEB has a list of features (I wrote the list of features): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CWEB But Enhanced CWEB has additional features that are not listed on Wikipedia.
05:23:02 <Gregor> Welp. Time to install Debian on my phone.
05:23:25 <zzo38> One of the new features in Enhanced CWEB is metamacros, although there are others, too.
05:24:53 <zzo38> (The codes for processing metamacros is in common.w (and common.dvi for printing), while the file cspider.w uses a few metamacros.)
05:25:45 <zzo38> Now do you understand it a bit more?
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06:30:30 <Gregor> Android has chroot but not mkdir.
06:31:25 <Gregor> Ohhh, it's in a weird path.
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06:45:44 <Gregor> Gettin' Debian on my phoooooone 8-D
06:47:22 <Sgeo> What about Win95?
06:48:27 <Gregor> That's only been done in an emulator.
07:13:05 * Sgeo deliberately does not invite Gregor or any other #esoteric er to an event
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07:41:15 <Flonk> good morning everybody :)
07:41:29 <fizzie> And on the other hand: at least my phone has Debian on a Debian. (In a matter of fashion, anyway.)
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10:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> He would be an ideal candidate for a Halloween costume.
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12:18:30 <AnMaster> vrml. How does one view it? For historical computing purposes.
12:19:08 <AnMaster> tools available to me are: opengenera, ubuntu 7.10, ubuntu 10.04, current arch linux
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12:30:17 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's like HTML but for 3D. :p
12:30:46 <fizzie> It's also pretty 1990s.
12:34:22 <fizzie> A technically-speaking human-writable ASCII-based syntax for describing 3D scenes with the usual sort of primitives, with some hyperlinking stuff and simplish even-scripting stuff added, meant to be viewed in a browser.
12:35:58 <fizzie> They also made a XML-based successor, X3D. I'm not sure if it was ever used much.
12:36:09 <fizzie> And there's some more recent competitors in the same space.
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13:20:44 <alise> This table wobbles!
13:20:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Alack alack alack?
13:21:37 <alise> It has only two, and they support the other; wobble wobble wobble. How does one work on this? I recall doing it on previous weekends.
13:21:55 <alise> So, I'm doing cpp lists.
13:23:29 <alise> I dunno. It has two metal bars on the floor horizontally.
13:23:35 <alise> And the whole bar curves up and supports the table.
13:23:39 <alise> It's for putting over your bed, say.
13:24:24 <alise> Agh, what is up with my mouse?
13:24:29 <alise> Clicks aren't being recognised.
13:24:31 <alise> Well, they are, but wrongly
13:25:32 <alise> list.h:18:15: error: macro "true" passed 10 arguments, but takes just 2
13:25:32 <alise> list.h:18:15: error: macro "tl_" requires 3 arguments, but only 1 given
13:25:32 <alise> list.h:18:15: error: macro "hd_" requires 3 arguments, but only 1 given
13:26:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hey how did you invoke cpp?
13:26:23 <alise> the #define f(x) f_(x) trick isn't working for me
13:27:10 <alise> Gimme your transcripted list.h, please?
13:27:45 <alise> "Erik entered Dalhousie University in Canada at the age of 12, and completed his bachelor's degree when only 14"
13:27:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Did.
13:28:17 <alise> Me too. Hm. So my code has a bug.
13:28:40 <alise> ha, I defined comments in the language
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13:29:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But that's not standard.
13:30:15 <alise> I'm writing in Industry Standard C Preprocessor.
13:30:32 <alise> cpressey: It's after noon.
13:31:01 <cpressey> time is all like relative and shit man, especially THIS early
13:32:03 <alise> how can you be awake at such a time
13:32:22 <alise> why can't america be like china and adopt a single timezone
13:32:55 <alise> then life would be simple
13:32:56 <cpressey> couldn't sleep, have work stuff (a release schedule) that should have been done yesterday, but due to "fun" in testing, it wasn't
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13:34:18 <alise> why do people who like programming work as programmers?
13:34:26 <cpressey> alise: for whatever it's worth, i think cpp can be shown tc. i hold out hope, anyway.
13:34:51 <cpressey> i would go for the cyclic tag system
13:35:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: programming-as-a-job is widely recognised to be the most kafkaesque, soul-draining sludge of time there is
13:35:01 <fizzie> There's nothing standard as to what a "preprocessor" separately invoked must do (since it doesn't need to be a separate part), but /* ... */ comments need to be replaced by a single space character before preprocessing directives and macro-expansion in any standard C implementation.
13:35:13 <alise> cpressey: i'm developing "standard conveniences" first to explore the space
13:35:33 <alise> fizzie: Well, whatever; rem() is funner.
13:35:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah.
13:37:25 <cpressey> i been thinking about the difference between "true but unprovable" and "independent" and now i hate the universe
13:38:05 <alise> cpressey: if we consider T the set of truths in some theory:
13:38:32 <alise> and P the set of (statement,proof_text)s in the theory
13:38:54 <alise> truebutunprovable(x) := x in T /\ ~(exists p such that (x,p) in P)
13:39:13 <alise> independent(x) := x not in T /\ ~x not in T (ergo T with added axiom of x or ~x are both consistent)
13:39:48 <cpressey> say you have an axiom system z. say x is true but unprovable in z. then z+!x is consistent, even though x is true. therefore i hate the universe
13:40:28 <alise> cpressey: well true but unprovable is of course terribly confusing.
13:40:36 <alise> Quadrescence: i do prolog?
13:40:53 <alise> Quadrescence: what prolog in particular have I done to make you say that?
13:41:16 <alise> how do you even know i do prolog
13:41:22 <alise> i only do it as a total newbie btw
13:41:31 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Look, a 2160-bit memory module: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mercury_memory.jpg
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13:41:50 <fizzie> (That's 2160 bits as in total capacity, not bus width or anything else.)
13:42:19 <alise> "Please Do Not Touch"
13:42:23 <alise> I hope that was on the original computer.
13:43:00 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The article says that the whole 1000-word memory subsystem (7 of those units) had its own walk-in room, so presumably not especially small.
13:43:33 <alise> Quadrescence: Well, I don't really do it any more. :P
13:43:52 * Phantom_Hoover is very happy that his wild guess as to the technical name was correct
13:44:18 <alise> Quadrescence: Pah, Edison.
13:44:23 <fizzie> That UNIVAC tank is sequential-access, of course.
13:45:15 <fizzie> (Or random-access if you don't mind a bit of waiting, but..)
13:45:46 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, you could use that for pipes, come to think if it.
13:46:31 <fizzie> Because you want your conceptual pipes involve real pipes somewhere?
13:46:45 <fizzie> "It's not a pipe unless fluids are involved."
13:47:47 <alise> list.h:16:29: warning: __VA_ARGS__ can only appear in the expansion of a C99 variadic macro
13:48:17 <cpressey> love the word "variadic", it sounds so scientific-y.
13:48:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, we're using the same version and code, aren't we?
13:48:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not code.
13:48:41 <alise> #define tl_(d,h,...) __VA_ARGS__
13:48:51 <alise> How is that NOT a variadic macro, GNU Stupid Crapshoot
13:49:11 <alise> it's in my rem line
13:49:46 <cpressey> Quadrescence: ironically, it sounds less so
13:49:53 <alise> you can't ... boycott a project
13:50:34 <cpressey> if everyone boycotts gcc they will starve... for attention
13:53:14 <alise> gcc is crap but Quadrescence has gone crazy
13:53:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, other than the fact that its assembler is stupid.
13:53:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: terrible, huge, huge code (over 100,000 lines -- how many bugs do you want to bet are in there);
13:53:39 <alise> simply inferior to well-designed compilers like pcc and clang
13:53:50 <alise> it's a huge crapshoot from the 80s
13:54:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, is there anything mainstream that you *don't* think is crap?
13:54:07 <alise> "cpp -std=c99 -Wall -pedantic -undef -nostdinc -P"
13:54:09 <alise> cpp the interpreter!
13:54:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes; but note that my opinion on gcc is not unusual
13:54:21 <alise> and i think you'll find most competent people share it
13:54:29 <alise> theo de raat does, in case you care about him
13:54:33 <cpressey> i am fascinated by how the mainstream attracts crap and vice versa
13:54:35 <alise> FreeBSD, too, want to move away from gcc
13:54:50 <alise> and not just for licensing reasons.
13:54:56 <cpressey> most of the bsds would rather not have gpl'ed stuff in their base
13:54:58 <alise> gcc needs to die a painful death. but meh.
13:55:03 <alise> cpressey: but they have technical reasons too
13:55:08 <alise> nooga: clang is a C compiler for LLVM.
13:55:11 <alise> I mentioned clang.
13:55:24 <alise> OK, so it's my conditional that's failing.
13:55:56 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, denouncing everything as crap gets boring after a while.
13:56:23 <alise> "You criticise a lot of things! Therefore you should stop making criticisms because I believe excess criticisms make future ones incorrect."
13:56:40 <alise> Would you have told Sturgeon to stop being such a pessimist?
13:57:30 <alise> But listen, my opinion on gcc is nothing radical.
13:57:35 <alise> If you actually studied it you would agree.
13:58:39 <alise> It's horribly architectured. The code is written badly and it is very, very long with lots of unchecked possibilities for bugs. It's crap; what the heck do I need to elaborate on?
13:58:59 <alise> It's coded badly, it's buggy, it's huge, it's slow, it gives useless error messages, and it doesn't optimise well at all.
13:59:14 <alise> These flaws are not present in other compilers like pcc and clang.
13:59:26 <alise> Age is the only excuse; and gcc has had plenty of time to get into this century.
13:59:37 <cpressey> yet the market determines TRUTH and pcc and clang are MARKET FAILURES!!1!
13:59:43 <alise> The best thing it could do with its time is to die quietly.
14:00:10 <alise> Quadrescence: but dude, C99 is, like, impossible.
14:00:15 <alise> It has complex numbers and shit.
14:00:32 <cpressey> Quadrescence: my sentiment exactly
14:00:34 <alise> They're complex, dude.
14:00:43 <alise> "And what has he done with said knowledge? I'm waiting to see the list of OSS projects he's working on." -- reddit moron about the guy who got a bachelor's at 14
14:01:05 <cpressey> Not impossible, out of place. What part of "systems construction language" does C99 not understand?
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14:01:17 <alise> I was joking wrt complexes.
14:01:25 <alise> I don't mind having complex numbers in the language although C99 did do them terribly.
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14:02:43 <Quadrescence> alise: c99 did a lot terribly to be honest. Like booleans are a god damn hack
14:03:02 <alise> the committee are retards
14:03:14 * Phantom_Hoover has come to the conclusion that his internet connection is nondeterministic.
14:03:23 <Quadrescence> C89 is pretty ok. It is not the best by today's standards but It's The Best We Got
14:03:53 <cpressey> <alise> "And what has he done..." <-- wow, i find that surprisingly offensive in a way i cannot readily describe
14:04:35 <alise> there's a bunch of people like that on reddit
14:04:41 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: really? try downloading from all sites at once
14:04:42 <alise> seriously, they don't care about you unless you work on FOSS.
14:04:53 <alise> the worst thing about FOSS is everyone who likes FOSS.
14:05:04 <alise> nooga: yes, indeed
14:05:16 <alise> but i was using conventional compilers to illustrate my point
14:05:25 <alise> nooga: 2c is the manpage :P
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14:08:06 <alise> anyone here any good at cpp?
14:08:26 <cpressey> "good" is not the word I'd use. I wrote macros that pasted tokens together once!
14:09:28 <alise> I'm not even sure.
14:10:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/1067011.txt?key=bxdsdyraapk8c9zshrrwcw
14:10:17 <alise> see the last two lines, compare their outputs
14:12:04 <alise> The second line should yield true,c,true,d,false,nil,nil.
14:12:11 <alise> I don't see how the first line works but the second doesn't.
14:13:25 <alise> I think it's because cpp keeps track of what was typed in and what was expanded
14:13:27 <alise> so as not to recursively expand
14:14:35 <cpressey> oh, wait, yeah, cpp doesn't recursively expand
14:14:37 <alise> cpressey: you're grumpy like me when you don't use caps
14:14:43 <alise> cpressey: which makes my conditionals not work
14:14:47 <alise> back to the drawing board for them
14:14:53 <cpressey> i think the causality might be backwards there re caps, but yes.
14:15:13 <alise> causality doesn't exist don't you know
14:15:53 <alise> "Screw you! I want my fucking A following B!"
14:16:37 <cpressey> maybe define tltl(x,y,...) to do it? you should only need a fixed number of tl's in any tc proof
14:16:54 <cpressey> well not ANY tc proof. you know what i mean
14:18:07 <alise> cpressey: i'm thinking for things like map
14:18:11 <alise> which would suggest power
14:20:23 <cpressey> yes, but... recursion is out, it looks like.
14:21:41 <alise> Yes; I gathered that. But I have no recursion, even!
14:21:53 <alise> In fact this restriction of cpp is the stupidest thing ever. I can think of no reason for it.
14:22:17 <cpressey> Recently, like in the past few months, cygwin wants to install three dozen new packages every time I upgrade. Including 'bc' and 'ed' and 'libglitz'. The deps for something I have installed are clearly hosed.
14:22:44 <cpressey> alise: um, well. it's nice when you don't have to worry about your macros not terminating
14:23:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I use it, but ... no. Linus is one of my heroes, he's a great guy. But Linux is another entry in the Unix tradition. And it has some braindamage (usually by people other than Linus).
14:23:34 <alise> cpressey: at expense of fucked up, barely explainable behaviour ... who writes macros complex enough that they'd recurse without this anyway? I mean, what?
14:23:43 <alise> cpp is instant anyway, if it takes more than a second on normal macros you'd know you have a loop.
14:24:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I don't. The original Unix was cool, and Plan 9, the successor to Unix by the same people, is genius; but modern Unix is, well, a crapshoot.
14:24:20 <cpressey> alise: hell, I dunno. who writes normal C code that relies on wrapping around at the bit size? ask Gregor.
14:24:20 <alise> And no, I'm not merely a malcontent; I just took a good, long, hard look at things and regret it a bit because I'm basically an outcast now.
14:24:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Complexity, bugginess, non-orthogonality, unpredictability, lack of unified coherent interface to anything (Plan 9 rectifies this), years of historical cruft...
14:24:53 <alise> ...makes a decent UI impossible...
14:25:00 <alise> cpressey: anyone who writes a BF interpreter? :P
14:25:02 <cpressey> alise: You've read the Worse is Better essay(s), I take it?
14:25:16 <alise> And I don't believe modern Unix follows Worse is Better.
14:25:21 <alise> It follows Better is Worse.
14:26:11 <alise> But I'm straying dangerously into my old zealot turf here; so I'll quiet down about it for a bit. Probably.
14:26:34 <cpressey> i will meditate on BiW. i probably know what you mean.
14:27:56 <alise> cpressey: Modern Unix is "MIT-style code" -- overcomplicated error-checking monstrosities -- over a New Jersey base; so it's bloated but in the end it fails hard.
14:28:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I will try not to get angry over things that work adequately for my purposes.
14:28:18 <alise> It's a "perfect" implementation of a quick-and-dirty philosophy, it just doesn't work ... it's not very explainable. Better is Worse. You know what i mean.
14:28:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not angry. I just don't like it. Linux does make me angry, though; you know, when it doesn't work, which is often.
14:29:35 <cpressey> alise: Yes. I think I've been BiW'ed silly working with Python, actually.
14:29:58 <alise> I dislike Python but tend to bury that anger because it's useful to glue shit together on Unix.
14:30:01 <cpressey> We're going to start with naff, then get it RIGHT!
14:30:08 <alise> It /is/ terribly naff.
14:30:17 <alise> Naff is a very good way to describe a lot of things in today's computing world.
14:30:30 <alise> Sure, it [...], but... do you really want to?
14:30:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Didn't ever been none Golden Age. Always been shit. Probably always will be.
14:32:02 <cpressey> I think there is a distinction between beauty and efficacy. Things that "get the job done" tend to be ugly. And ugly things tend to work badly *in the long run*. But most people don't have a significant amount of foresight, and they will defend the ugly things that "get the job done" tooth and nail. In business, especially.
14:32:05 <alise> I do but it's all ideas, nothing concrete. However, there are shards of perfection present in many things that as a whole are not; and together they form a fucked-up collage that nevertheless represents something perfect, if you can make the glue stick.
14:33:11 <alise> You know, when I don't think about this shit I'm positive enough.
14:34:02 <alise> You know, I never had cpressey down as the grumpy cynic everything-sucks type.
14:34:19 <alise> I always assumed he'd be the happy-camper-on-LSD-ah-it-sucks-so-what-i-just-make-cool-stuff type.
14:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I would be that if it weren't for the LSD, cool stuff and the camping. And the happy.
14:36:05 <alise> And the cool stuff?
14:37:55 <cpressey> I've gone back and forth during my life, actually.
14:38:25 <alise> cpressey: I take it most of your esolang work was done in the happy-camper phase :-P
14:38:30 <alise> Hey, that means there's hope for me to rebound yet.
14:38:51 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, I have decided to break into my friend's house and steal his father's old BBC Micro.
14:38:58 <cpressey> I've had periods where I've been extremely depressed about how much everything sucks, and I've had periods where I've not cared at all and was just elated that the universe was so weird.
14:39:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Unfortunately, I have only a vague idea where he lives.
14:39:25 <alise> cpressey: Hell, I don't get depressed about it. It's just fucking computers. Or do you mean /everything/ everything?
14:39:38 <cpressey> And yes, most esolang work occurs during the latter half of that cycle.
14:39:53 <cpressey> Yes, not just computers. Everything. Systems.
14:39:56 <alise> Are you certain you're not bipolar? :P
14:40:22 <alise> Sorry, that was nasty.
14:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I know which part of Edinburgh his flat is in and I know that it's above a Chinese restaurant.
14:44:03 <alise> "It's in the part of Scotland where it usually rains. Oh, and it's next to a DFS with a sale on; you can't miss it."
14:44:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a vague idea as to the name of the Chinese restaraunt.
14:47:14 <alise> http://www.dangermouse.net/media/memento.html
14:47:21 <alise> David Morgan-Mar watches Memento for the first time. Backwards.
14:47:29 <fizzie> Speaking of why CPP won't recursively expand macros, it's because it's forbidden to: "If the name of the macro being replaced is found during this scan [after the first round of substitution] of the replacement list -- it is not replaced. Furthermore, if any nested replacements encounter the name of the macro being replaced, it is not replaced. These nonreplaced macro name preprocessing tokens are no longer available for further replacement even if they are lat
14:47:30 <fizzie> er (re)examined in contexts in which that macro name preprocessing token would otherwise have been replaced."
14:47:39 <alise> It's a stupid restriction.
14:48:03 <fizzie> Well, you wouldn't want to have scary LOOPS in the preprocessor.
14:48:03 <AnMaster> alise, btw you said something about cpp and TC. Got anywhere with that?
14:48:16 <AnMaster> iirc it is possibly TC with recursive includes or such
14:48:31 <alise> AnMaster: I'm "working on it".
14:48:32 <cpressey> alise: I can't be certain, I suppose, but I strongly doubt it. Seems to be tied much more strongly to what's happening in my world and how I look at it.
14:48:41 <alise> I'm trying to define lists; run into a roadblock but I think I can fix it.
14:48:47 <AnMaster> alise, your way doesn't include recursive includes?
14:48:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Who /doesn't/?
14:49:09 <alise> cpressey: I try and stay positive. :P
14:49:11 <AnMaster> alise, do you do recursive includes or not when making it TC?
14:49:41 <alise> AnMaster: I will, yes.
14:49:46 <alise> I haven't got a proof yet.
14:49:48 <alise> Just a strong hunch.
14:51:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: None? Preprocessors are a pretty pointless concept :-P
14:51:56 <alise> M4 is more a template language from hell.
14:51:59 <alise> Anyway, cpp works fine for C.
14:52:59 <AnMaster> alise, what about lisp macros. Not really pre-processor as such thoughh
14:54:08 <alise> M4 is a good esolang, not a good lang.
14:54:20 <alise> What Phantom_Hoover said
14:54:43 <alise> how do you disable indentation in cpp mode?
14:54:47 <cpressey> Surprsed I haven't seen something esosomething implemented in that combo
14:54:59 <alise> like when I press (
14:56:25 <fizzie> Just M-x fundamental-mode. :p
14:57:44 <alise> But keeping syntax highlighting. Some electric thing.
14:58:25 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, they're preprocessing done right. <-- not a separate pre-processor though. Runs in the compiler iirc
14:58:25 <fizzie> Perhaps you could just set c-basic-offset to 0.
14:58:27 * Phantom_Hoover always wonders why Lisp did things right then everyone went and got it wrong for the next few decades.
14:58:36 <fizzie> (It could still line up things, I guess.)
15:00:37 <Quadrescence> http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
15:01:10 <alise> <AnMaster> on the AST I think ;; no ast, just the concrete tree; the lists
15:01:24 <Quadrescence> PHANTOM_HOOVER: READ THE ABOVE LINK, AFTER, READ http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html
15:01:45 <alise> http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
15:02:09 <alise> it's just the qi guy whining about how programmers are so misunderstood then giving it the label "bipolar" and thereby furthering the continued uselessness of psychological terminology.
15:02:25 <alise> it's shit and if you believe it you're another lisp elitist that's full of themselves
15:02:34 <alise> the yegge article is good however.
15:03:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you fail
15:03:02 <alise> cpressey: a powerful type system thing grafted onto common lisp
15:03:08 <alise> cpressey: it has a turing complete type system without dependent typing
15:03:15 <alise> which is hilariously fuck-uppedly pointless
15:03:36 <Quadrescence> alise: but really, that article is pretty accurate. Maybe not for all lisp programmers
15:03:59 <Quadrescence> I can't remember the last time I've seen a complete, good, full piece of working lisp
15:04:36 <alise> I object to the way it is written and the way the author perceives the immense genius of Lispers. I also dislike the blatant misuse of the term "bipolar", which is unacceptable.
15:04:51 <alise> The author is also a bad writer.
15:05:36 <alise> Quadrescence: I just sort of wish he'd render "it's" or "let's" properly at least once.
15:06:01 <Quadrescence> Phantom_Hoover: what, saying someone has a medical condition
15:06:10 <Quadrescence> and then recommending taking an anti-psychotic medication
15:06:24 <Quadrescence> honestly i do not think saying someone has a medical condition is an insult
15:07:14 <alise> Quadrescence: Considering that I'm wrongly in an institution and they tried to push meds on me...
15:07:26 <alise> I'd say that if I were the kind of person to get offended by that, I'd rip your eyeballs out.
15:07:30 <alise> I am not, however.
15:08:27 <Quadrescence> alise: you just think you're wrongly in an institution
15:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's due to my early experiments with mind control.
15:10:06 <nooga> jdijdijidjdijeijd ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :D~
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15:13:15 <ais523> <comex> I've used it as a variable occasionally. Don't ask why
15:13:23 <ais523> comex: I'm afraid I'll have to ask why
15:13:29 <ais523> although it should be a safe question in /this/ channel
15:18:19 <cpressey> Is Qi a TC type system as in, "write a program in this DSL which implements the type checker you want"?
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15:19:46 <alise> cpressey: sort of.
15:19:50 <alise> cpressey: a bit more infrastructure than that.
15:20:52 <alise> "Wikileaks To Leak 5000 Open Source Java Projects With All That Private/Final Bullshit Removed" --Steve Yegge
15:21:01 <alise> [[According to the Wikileaks press release, millions of Java source files have been run through a Perl script that removes all 'final' keywords except those required for hacking around the 15-year-old Java language's "fucking embarrassing lack of closures."]]
15:21:08 <cpressey> The only thing I /really/ don't like about LISP (and Scheme) is destructive update.
15:21:18 <alise> [[Longtime Java programmer Ronnie Lloyd of Austin, TX is offended by the thought of people instantiating his private classes. "It's just common sense," said Lloyd, who is 37. "If I buy you a house and put the title in your name, but I mark some of the doors 'Employees Only', then you're not allowed to open those doors, even though it's your house. Because it's really my house, even though I gave it to you to live in."]]
15:21:25 <alise> cpressey: So clearly we need purely functional Lisp.
15:21:30 <alise> Also, it's Lisp. Has been for years. Not LISP :P
15:21:53 <ais523> alise: I have quite an interesting view about final, actually
15:22:16 <ais523> I used to think it was an awful idea; nowadays, I'm beginning to conclude that it's correct on anything which isn't specced to be extend-safe
15:22:19 <alise> Next article: Eclipse Sits On Man's Couch, Breaks It
15:22:19 <alise> New Hampshire programmer Freddie Cardenas, 17, describes the incident: "We invited Eclipse over for dinner and drinks. Eclipse sat down on our new couch and there was this loud crack and it broke in half. Those timbers had snapped like fuckin' matchsticks. Then my mom started crying, and Eclipse started crying, and I ran and hid in my bedroom." Read more]]
15:22:23 <alise> Yegge is an awesome writer.
15:23:24 <alise> cpressey: Maybe your destiny is to create a purely-functional Lisp that doesn't suck.
15:23:45 <cpressey> alise: Pixley is a purely-functional Lisp that's not nearly big enough to suck
15:24:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that this is because I avoid Java like the plague.
15:24:08 <cpressey> People will complain about the lack of, oh, I don't know. Numbers? though.
15:24:27 <alise> cpressey: It sucks. :P
15:24:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe it'll make more sense if you read it: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2010/07/wikileaks-to-leak-5000-open-source-java.html
15:24:46 <Phantom_Hoover> But things like pattern-matching don't seem very nice in Lisp...
15:25:12 <cpressey> alise: It can implement itself in a couple of hundred lines of code! How can it suck! What else would you possibly use a Lisp for!
15:25:29 <cpressey> Aren't questions which end in exclamation points obnoxious!
15:25:39 <alise> cpressey: link me to pixley again?
15:25:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I am, but I never poke around inside Java projets.
15:25:49 <alise> also, you can implement a subset of scheme in itself in like 50 lines
15:25:55 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/pixley/doc/website_pixley.html
15:25:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I am?
15:26:23 <cpressey> My implementation of Pixley in Pixley is 140 lines.
15:27:00 <nooga> "They have no right to do this. Open Source does not mean the source is somehow 'open'." what?
15:27:01 <alise> cpressey: I've become a bit of an infix whore, tbh.
15:27:08 <alise> nooga: hurr i don't get blatant satire hurr
15:27:17 <alise> For the precise meanings of each of these forms, please refer to the Revised5 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme.
15:27:29 <alise> cpressey: you mean the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme.
15:28:01 <cpressey> The <sup>5</sup> doesn't indicate such?
15:29:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: nothing much
15:29:17 <alise> cpressey: http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/icbins/icbins.tar.gz Scheme-subset-sideset self-compiler and interpreter in 10 pages
15:29:26 <alise> cpressey: http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/ichbins.tar.gz the beautiful 6-page version with just the compiler
15:29:28 <alise> compiler to C that is
15:30:11 <alise> cpressey: I'm pretty sure I like infix too much to ever truly like a "traditional" Lisp, though.
15:31:08 <alise> So you're in Cupertino?
15:32:06 <cpressey> I'm against Lisp compilers for some reason
15:32:27 <alise> cpressey: You move around a lot.
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15:32:27 <nooga> it's like you were working for apple?
15:32:34 <alise> nooga: I doubt that highly.
15:33:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Java programmers are similar to that article.
15:33:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Less blatant about it, of course.
15:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I did work experience in a computing department that used primarily Java,
15:34:16 <ais523> alise: my objection to someone removing all the final and private from my code is "now you can't tell what can be overriden/called without being randomly breaking-changed, and what can be"
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15:35:33 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I teach Java for a living
15:35:40 <alise> to poor, innocent souls
15:35:44 <ais523> I think it's a really bad language to teach people as their first language
15:35:45 <alise> then harvests what's left of their brains
15:36:04 <ais523> but hey, I'm being paid to teach that rather than something saner
15:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, if my school is anything to judge by, he's a bit skinny..
15:36:09 <nooga> you're worse than Hitler then
15:36:13 <ais523> and hopefully it'll increase the average quality of Java amongst graduates
15:36:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wat
15:36:51 <cpressey> C++ is an order of magnitude worse than Java.
15:37:03 <Phantom_Hoover> In the top computing class *two* people could program at all well.
15:37:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the students here are on average rather better than that
15:37:25 <alise> grr, how do you typeset the proper prime character in TeX? $\prime$ looks weird
15:37:28 <alise> for a height, like 5'4"
15:37:37 <ais523> although you still get several who just do not get programming, and a few more who can program but don't get OO
15:37:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: <Phantom_Hoover> alise, if my school is anything to judge by, he's a bit skinny..
15:37:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh i see
15:37:48 <alise> but i never said he ate them!
15:39:08 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not nearly as bad as Java
15:39:15 <ais523> although I think it's a bit large for use as a teaching language
15:39:16 <alise> $^\prime$ is... close...
15:39:19 <nooga> students sould learn: C, then ruby, then haskell
15:39:23 <ais523> and object.prototype, etc, is likely to be confusing
15:39:50 <ais523> (although I hear mac-IE is a lot saner than windows-IE)
15:39:55 <alise> ah, 6$'$1$''$ does it about right.
15:40:48 <alise> my lord, Minion is beautiful
15:40:54 <alise> I just need something to typeset in it...
15:41:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently you have a sense used only for being weird about typography.
15:42:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you should see actual typophiles.
15:42:29 <alise> they live every moment for it.
15:42:37 <alise> I just appreciate nice typefaces.
15:42:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I share a world with people who are even more obsessed with typography than you‽
15:43:03 <alise> I am not obsessed. Jeez.
15:43:14 <alise> I have an interest, like you probably do about many things
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15:47:06 <Flonk> Id never pay money for a font D:
15:47:07 <ais523> alise: this reminds me, I've been meaning to ask something
15:47:14 <ais523> what are good monotyped fonts that are standard on the Mac?
15:47:25 <cpressey> ais523: What would be a good learning language? Lua?
15:47:38 <ais523> cpressey: Lua wouldn't be bad, actually
15:48:08 <ais523> I suppose it depends on what field you're going into; they taught electronic engineers (my first degree) asm and C simultaneously first, which worked well
15:48:15 <cpressey> ais523: Does this help a bit? http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html
15:48:46 <oklopol> "<ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I teach Java for a living" <<< just general java or something more specific using java?
15:48:52 <oklopol> well i guess you teach java if you say you teach java
15:48:53 <cpressey> Establishes a lower bound at Courier New + Lucida Console :/
15:49:16 <ais523> oklopol: when teaching, you don't have much of a chance to do anything particularly specific
15:49:56 <cpressey> And I have to say I'm not *so* down on Java as a production language. Its culture is much worse than the language itself.
15:50:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not really, it's mostly reflex
15:50:27 <ais523> and Java is not an awful language, although it's a bad first language, and tends to be overengineered
15:50:53 <ais523> semicolons aren't soul-crushing
15:51:13 <ais523> unless syntax is deliberately obstructive (/me glares at most esolangs), it's normally pretty much irrelevant
15:51:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm referring to students' inability to remember them.
15:51:56 <ais523> students tend to be quite good with boilerplate
15:52:00 <ais523> especially when using NetBeans
15:53:03 <oklopol> "<ais523> oklopol: when teaching, you don't have much of a chance to do anything particularly specific" <<< it was surprising to me that a phd student was teaching a basic course, but i guess they need to harvest everyone for those
15:53:53 <ais523> oklopol: actually, it's not that surprising; basic courses are all that they can trust mere phd students on
15:54:01 <ais523> most courses need actual lecturers
15:54:25 <oklopol> yes i realized that right after saying that
15:55:17 <oklopol> phd students don't teach courses often here, but if they do it's usually a course they actually ask permission to give (i know exactly one instance of this)
15:55:25 <ais523> and even then, I'm not the main teacher, just take tutorials and do marking
15:55:27 <oklopol> which means they are everything but basic courses
15:55:58 <oklopol> that's almost exclusively done by phd ppl here
15:56:41 <alise> ais523: the default one on the mac is good
15:56:43 <alise> or Monaco, the old default
15:56:46 <alise> I forget the name of the new default
15:56:54 <ais523> ugh, it's names I need to know
15:57:07 <ais523> trying to work around a bug with jettyplay, where it sometimes chooses a ridiculously inappropriate font
15:57:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: firstly, Minion is a typeface, not a font; secondly, $26 is damn cheap for a font. Besides, it comes with Adobe Reader.
15:57:21 <alise> Probably using it violates the license, but who gives a shit apart from ais523?
15:57:36 <ais523> and obviously it needs a monotype one because ttyrecs assume monotype
15:57:42 <alise> Finally, fuck no it does not look the same as other fonts.
15:58:34 <alise> ais523: Menlo; it's a modified DejaVu Sans Mono
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15:58:48 <alise> ais523: only on 10.6 and above
15:58:50 <alise> fallback to Monaco
15:58:54 <ais523> yep, that's what I plan to do
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15:59:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well, to most people all typefaces look the same.
15:59:37 <alise> however, people will notice that a well-typeset book is easy to read. the more discerning will note that it looks good.
15:59:42 <alise> mostly it's subconscious.
15:59:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: can you tell Garamond from Baskerville?
15:59:54 <ais523> I can tell them apart, to some extent (although Arial/Helvetica normally needs a blatantly different letter like the R to tell); normally I don't care, though
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16:01:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: TNR?
16:01:32 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, yes, non-monospace is an offence in the eyes of oklo.
16:01:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In its common Windows incarnation, yes; and by now everyone's eyes are dulled to it, and nothing interesting is ever set in it.
16:01:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: When it was designed, it was great.
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16:02:47 <ais523> alise: Times New Roman was probably released a bit early
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16:02:52 <ais523> it looks awful at 640x480 resolution
16:03:03 <ais523> which was standard for Windows 3.1, where it first became popular
16:03:10 <alise> ais523: excuse me, Times New Roman was released in 1931. :-)
16:03:17 <ais523> alise: well, of course
16:03:17 <alise> Windows' font of it is and always has been terrible.
16:03:20 <ais523> I mean, the Microsoft versoin
16:03:52 <alise> OS X's "Times" font is much better.
16:04:00 <alise> It's still fundamentally bland, though; you can't really do anything about that.
16:04:15 <ais523> bland isn't bad for the default font everyone uses for everything
16:04:32 <alise> Yeah, but dammit, Word could default to Palatino or something.
16:04:41 <ais523> sorry, I had a sudden flashback to that feature of old versions of Word which let you put animated sparkly shapes behind all the text you wrote
16:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, has anyone else read the GNU standardisation info page?
16:05:12 <alise> no, and I hope never to.
16:06:40 <ais523> is this of the same standard as the Enigma video trailer?
16:06:58 <ais523> (at least they've actually uploaded it to YouTube now and embedded it, rather than providing a .flv download)
16:08:02 <ais523> I forget the exact link, but http://enigma-game.org is the homepage
16:08:10 <ais523> there's probably a link to the trailer on there somewhere
16:08:17 <ais523> it is the worst advert I've ever seen pretty much
16:11:29 <alise> "another breathtaking movie"
16:12:14 <alise> ais523: nooo, they used the rubbish music!
16:12:16 <alise> not the NICE music!
16:12:22 <alise> apart from, you know, all the other flaws
16:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously this is because open-source video-editing stuff sucks.
16:12:34 <ais523> alise: they can't legally use pentagonal dreams on the trailer
16:12:37 <alise> or because a lot of open source people have no taste :-)))
16:12:39 <ais523> its licensing is screwed up
16:12:43 <alise> ais523: i knoowwww
16:12:45 <alise> but it's not faaaair
16:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm amazed that the GNU zealots allowed them to use flash.
16:15:27 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you have to download Enigma to get it; its licensing is, as I said, screwed up
16:15:30 <ais523> and it's not /that/ amazing
16:15:38 <alise> [[Formerly, when a word or phrase in quotation marks came at the end of a phrase or clause that ended with a semicolon, the semicolon would be put before the trailing quotation mark; now, however, the magazine follows the universally observed style and puts the semicolon after the second quotation mark.]]
16:15:39 <ais523> alise: there's a third music too, now
16:15:41 <alise> I really want to know how that looked.
16:15:44 <alise> ais523: I bet it sucks.
16:15:48 <alise> Also, it IS amazing. :|
16:15:50 <ais523> not as good as pentagonal dreams, but still pretty good
16:18:03 <oklopol> what's so bad about the trailer
16:18:06 <alise> Musttypesetabookmusttypesetabook
16:18:17 <ais523> oklopol: have you watched it?
16:18:37 <ais523> well, it's far too long, and tries to explain various gameplay elements in too much detail
16:18:47 <ais523> rather than actually saying what the game's about
16:18:53 <oklopol> well right it's a bad trailer, not a bad video
16:18:56 <ais523> pretty much everything else in there has a calculated awkwardness to it too
16:19:03 <ais523> yes, it's bad at being a trailer
16:19:17 <oklopol> well, it's not an awesome video, but it's not spectaculary awkward
16:19:46 <ais523> enigma contains different floors !
16:20:17 <oklopol> yes that was rather spectacular
16:22:48 <alise> ais523: maybe I should set your wolfram proof xD
16:22:54 <alise> except that it's ugly (sry but it is a bit messy)
16:23:41 <alise> cpressey: CLOJURE; CLOJURE FIXES ALL PROBLEMS! :p
16:23:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html
16:24:00 <alise> http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/TM23Proof.pdf is the pdf
16:24:11 <ais523> alise: don't worry about it; it's not me who messed it up
16:24:24 <alise> ais523: you typeset it, didn't you?
16:24:27 <ais523> the wolfram people went and appended a bunch of inefficient mathematica to it for advertising purposes or something
16:24:28 <alise> or rather, scribbled it in openoffice
16:24:34 <ais523> and redid all the formatting then for no apparent reason
16:24:45 <alise> they have really bad taste, then
16:25:00 <ais523> admittedly, my original wasn't brilliant, it was just sane default settings
16:25:15 <alise> it doesn't even have proper quotes, the fonts for headings are wat, the spacing is just utterly crazy, especially around headings and quote blocks, quote blocks are pointlessly coloured and dedented...
16:25:29 <alise> ais523: heh, default formatting is far superior to that
16:25:42 <alise> ais523: although really, why didn't you just use LaTeX?
16:26:27 <ais523> I was thinking as I went
16:26:33 <ais523> and didn't know about LyX back then
16:26:36 <AnMaster> alise, did you get opengenera to work nicely? I wrote up a somewhat more up-to-date guide for it. Also includes how to install the symbolics X fonts (otherwise small text like in Show Keyboard Layout output is unreadable).
16:26:37 <ais523> also, there's hardly any maths
16:26:42 <AnMaster> I figured you might be interested in it
16:26:54 <alise> AnMaster: symbolics x fonts?
16:27:02 <ais523> it could mostly have been done in VT100speak without issues
16:27:15 <alise> ais523: yeah, but the maths that is there is barf
16:27:26 <AnMaster> alise, yes if you read the opengenera documentation it mentions that opengenera comes bundled with custom bitmap fonts, but will fall back to standard X fixed bitmap fonts
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16:27:33 <alise> AnMaster: ah. well, link me up.
16:27:34 <AnMaster> alise, the bundled ones are much nicer
16:27:40 <alise> i'd prefer a proper symbolics emulator though!
16:27:40 <AnMaster> alise, sec, will sprunge the file
16:27:50 <alise> which nobody has written yet, inexplicably!
16:28:14 <alise> there are mit cadr emulators, ti explorer emulators ... but no symbolics emulators
16:28:25 <AnMaster> alise, pure text, would really need to be written up as LaTeX to make what is commands and what isn't clearer: http://sprunge.us/ZAWh
16:28:35 <alise> I'll write it up as LaTeX!
16:28:36 <AnMaster> alise, the section you want is near the end
16:28:43 <AnMaster> alise, nah I have it partly done already
16:28:46 <alise> Also, I'll fix all your awful formatting and grammar /because I'm kind/.
16:28:49 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, but not in Minion.
16:29:33 <alise> You are joking wrt GFDL, right?
16:29:48 <alise> "Invariant sections: EVERYTHING"
16:29:57 <AnMaster> alise, I'll probably go for CC-by-sa-nc-3.0.
16:30:10 <alise> * Update system with GUI tool, aptitude, apt-get or whatever you prefer.
16:30:16 <alise> mrrf ... that's not how you're supposed to uppgrade
16:30:22 <alise> AnMaster: now you are surely joking
16:30:33 <AnMaster> alise, I meant update as in get security upgrades and such
16:30:41 <AnMaster> alise, otherwise have fun with openssl bug and so on
16:30:50 <alise> what is it with FOSS zealots who get all touchy when their work happens to be in a language whose interpreter happens to be a brain rather than a computer
16:30:52 <AnMaster> yes the versions on the cd are affected by that
16:31:16 <AnMaster> <alise> AnMaster: now you are surely joking <-- hm? why am I joking about CC-by-sa-nc?
16:31:33 <alise> oh, i thought you included the no-changes clause.
16:31:44 <alise> -nc isn't Free, however
16:32:11 <alise> in the dfsg it violates no discrimination against fields of endeavour.
16:32:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember a licence that is GPL incompatible because it says that the software must be used for good, not evil.
16:32:34 <alise> it's also not OSI-open
16:32:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: JSON
16:32:43 <alise> AnMaster: and I doubt the FSF considers it free either
16:32:47 <alise> so there, all your idols hate you
16:32:48 <AnMaster> alise, well, symbolics probably isn't legal to use for commerical purposes without a license either
16:33:01 <alise> AnMaster: you can get an OpenGenera license.
16:33:17 <alise> AnMaster: by contacting sales@symbolics-dks.com
16:33:22 <alise> pikhq: i still have to go there, just not sleep.
16:33:32 <alise> ais523: Symbolics? yes, as a shell company
16:33:35 <alise> http://symbolics-dks.com/
16:33:41 <alise> they sold symbolics.com, the oldest .com, to a squatter; shameful
16:33:45 <alise> AnMaster: David K Schmidt
16:33:47 <pikhq> alise: FREEDOMNESSZOMG
16:33:56 <pikhq> ... They *sold symbolics.com*?
16:34:01 <alise> http://symbolics.com/
16:34:14 <alise> it's not like anyone even gives a shit, lol
16:34:20 <alise> but dks probably got tons of money from it
16:35:10 <alise> pikhq: so are there any players that can play ripped blurays?
16:35:14 <alise> can mplayer do it?
16:35:27 <AnMaster> alise, anyway unsolved problems: give internet access to opengenera, write a custom keymap (if that is possible). Numpad-5 (without numlock) as a modifier key doesn't work very well on my laptop!
16:35:49 <AnMaster> another one: Figure out CL-HTTP. Upgrading to last version did not work
16:35:56 <pikhq> alise: Ripped and have the h.264 bitstream dumped to an MPEG4 container file? Have been able to for years.
16:36:09 <pikhq> alise: Just dd'd and decrypted? Recent mplayer can.
16:36:27 <alise> i refer to a bunch of directories including
16:36:57 <pikhq> mplayer bluray:///path/to/bluray/disc/
16:37:20 <alise> pikhq: now how can i take this and pack it up into a single file? can mplayer still play that at speed?
16:37:45 <pikhq> alise: What, you mean make it into a single mkv or something?
16:38:32 <pikhq> I... Think you'd be best using mplayer -dumpaudio and -dumpvideo and -dumpsubs to fetch out the bitstreams you want and then pass it into mkvmerge.
16:38:43 <alise> pikhq: Okay. Because, you see, things should be single files, dammit.
16:39:44 <alise> pikhq: I'm considering downloading the newest Star Trek flick, you see, just because... well, I'd like to see whether it's crap or decent (Sam Hughes thinks good) and I'd like to see the full splendour of 1080p; it's all CGIy so it should be the best quality a man can get. Or is that Gillette?
16:39:53 <alise> I don't actually have the 1080p screen here, it's the TV downstairs, but oh well, a man can dream.
16:40:00 <alise> And it MUST BE A SINGLE FILE
16:40:44 <pikhq> Alternately, you could see if mplayer will play tarballs. :P
16:41:04 <alise> pikhq: Heh. You check that. :P
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16:45:22 <alise> NOVELS are like GREEK MYTHOLOGY put in a BULLET.
16:45:31 <alise> pikhq: I SAID CHECK IT SLAVE :|
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16:48:58 <alise> pikhq: I would but I have nothing to put in the tar.
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16:57:12 <alise> "But Shatner wanted to share Nimoy's major role, and did not want a cameo,[62] despite his character's death in Star Trek Generations. He suggested the film canonize his novels where Kirk is resurrected [...]"
16:57:16 <alise> SHATNER: Give me my fucking film
16:57:47 <fizzie> Put all the files in a filesystem image (that is a single file), and then loop-mount it every time you want to play? The complicatedest solutions are the best.
16:58:32 <alise> pikhq: If a Blu-Ray rip says "x264", then the stream has been tampered with, yes?
16:58:51 <alise> Especially if it's Way Too Small.
16:59:15 <alise> ViDEO CODEC..........: x264_L4.1 @ 13 Mbps
16:59:16 <alise> SOURCE...............: 1080p Blu-ray AVC TrueHD
16:59:18 <ais523> alise: http://blognomic.com/archive/nothing_arbitrary_about_this/
16:59:24 <ais523> you will probably like that proposal
16:59:33 <ais523> especially as it's turned into a hideous counter, of sorts
16:59:57 <alise> blognomic irritates me for some reason
17:03:26 <cpressey> <alise> Musttypesetabookmusttypesetabook <--- ok, now that's one urge I've seen but I've *never* felt or understood
17:03:43 <alise> cpressey: That's because you haven't realised the BEAUTY.
17:03:54 <alise> Heck, I don't even want to publish anything on the web any more because it'd look awful!
17:06:25 <alise> pikhq: God mplayer is like the best thing ever.
17:06:30 <alise> It's ffmpeg + SUPPORT EVERYTHING
17:07:50 <cpressey> I guess my eyeballbuds just aren't that refined.
17:11:55 <alise> ************************************************
17:11:57 <alise> **** Your system is too SLOW to play this! ****
17:11:58 <alise> ************************************************
17:13:57 <ais523> what's that a reference to?
17:14:25 <alise> mplayer said it to me
17:14:38 <alise> "In one or two sentences, describe the process in which users are approved to become administrators on English Wikipedia." -- online Wikimedia Foundation job interview
17:14:42 <alise> It's like an exam. :-D
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17:21:49 <cpressey> way tempted to answer that soooo inappropriately
17:23:15 <Sgeo> Failure on the other programmer's part to do anything resembling best practices caused me to stay up all night
17:23:27 <Sgeo> Since there's no easy way to clear out static class's members
17:23:47 <alise> pikhq: how do you play a video in a reduced size in mplayer?
17:24:32 <cpressey> Sgeo: I assume you either meant "a class's static members" or you are using an interesting language there
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17:27:33 <Sgeo> This code is a shining example of worst practices
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17:28:14 <ais523> a static class would just be a namespace, wouldn't it?
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17:29:25 <Sgeo> This project I've been working on for a while
17:31:05 <Sgeo> I'm seriously, and don't call me Shirley
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17:33:02 <alise> cpressey: I'm trying to minimise the function "size of self-implementation" over the scale lambda-calculus to Scheme.
17:33:32 <comex> I remember someone wrote an article about tht
17:37:20 <pikhq> alise: -xy scaling-factor
17:37:22 <fizzie> cpressey: C# has a thing called "static class"; it's a class with only static members in it, but you can sort-of enforce that by putting a "static" modifier in the class declaration itself.
17:37:52 <pikhq> alise: If using a video output that doesn't have scaling acceleration, you will also need to add -zoom
17:39:07 <alise> pikhq: Bleh, way too slow.
17:39:52 <fizzie> There's also the "lowres" parameter (recommended by that "too-slow" message) of lavdopts, if you're decoding via libavcodec; it could help a lot more than just scaling the output, though it won't always work.
17:41:01 <cpressey> fizzie: Kind of an abuse of the word "class" IMO, but I guess that's C# for ya
17:41:15 <alise> cpressey: is your website really generated with xslt? xD
17:41:37 <alise> cpressey: have you ever noticed that xslt is insane?
17:41:55 <cpressey> alise: YARRH, why thinks ye I be speaking like a PIRATE?
17:42:35 <alise> cpressey: Because you just illegally downloaded copyrighted material?
17:42:39 <cpressey> (I had to learn it for my job at the time anyway, I figured, this looks pretty insane, why not?)
17:42:59 <fizzie> cpressey: What sort of job requires you to learn how to speak like a pirate?
17:43:06 <ais523> fizzie: pirate impersonator?
17:43:16 <ais523> I imagine Disneyland has at least one
17:43:25 <fizzie> ais523: Maybe, or some sort of generic children's entertainer thing.
17:43:28 <alise> the Kludgy Hypertext System!
17:43:42 <cpressey> Ye have no idea how hard 'tis typing with a hook.
17:43:45 <alise> Unfortunately the name is a pain to type on QWERTY.
17:44:26 <ais523> alise: move your fingers to the vi position, then it works just fine
17:44:55 <alise> ais523: but my fingers are never in the vi position
17:45:05 <ais523> mine are when I play NetHack
17:45:15 <alise> kws is close, kludgy website system, but the kw combination is easy to mistype
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17:45:36 <ais523> what about if you use Dvorak?
17:45:50 <zzo38> What is the command in TeX for "repeat until \pageno is the same value as it was the previous time"?
17:45:53 <cpressey> alise: The other option was "code it in PHP", because that's all my crap hosting service offers. And compared to that, xslt felt goof.
17:46:38 <zzo38> I agree PHP is full of some idiotic things, it is also slow, but I sometimes use PHP
17:46:56 <zzo38> And not only for serving files over HTTP
17:47:13 <cpressey> I've wanted to write a (insert nicer language here)->PHP compiler for some time for this reason.
17:47:32 <alise> kms, maybe; kludgy markup system
17:47:49 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes that would help a bit, but it doesn't make PHP run any more efficiently
17:47:57 <alise> i wish there was a mediocre language like python but without the crap
17:48:17 <zzo38> I also sometimes use Forth.
17:48:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do people always say "ah, <language x> is crap" as if it were immediately obvious
17:48:32 <zzo38> alise: Have you ever used Forth?
17:48:41 <Sgeo> English programming language is crap.
17:48:49 <alise> It isn't "mediocre like Python but without the crap". :-)
17:48:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because it ... is.
17:49:14 <zzo38> I have used Python as well, for writing a few card games, also in order to fix some things at Free Geek
17:49:21 <zzo38> alise: I never implied it was
17:50:30 <cpressey> To me, Python embodies "Better is Worse", now that alise has brought that up. Sort-of "Mediocrity honed to a fine point"
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17:50:53 <alise> Hey, cpressey woke up.
17:51:15 <cpressey> Yep, pretty much. See, I'm capitalizing my sentences and everything!
17:51:25 <zzo38> Well, there is different opinion. Some people like Python and some don't, also some people like some things in Python or not
17:53:17 <zzo38> Mailman is also written in Python, and I have a question I want to know if you know something about this, which is, which file contains the codes for formatting a text message as HTML document? There is something wrong with it that it removes lines with ">" at the beginning. And in September I will have to fix it
17:53:37 <zzo38> So, which files should I look in to figure out how to fix this problem?
17:54:05 <alise> ais523: why isn't parsing easy?
17:54:14 <alise> zzo38: I suggest not using Mailman,
17:54:22 <ais523> alise: it is, in most cases
17:54:38 <zzo38> alise: Free Geek is the one using Mailman, not me.
17:54:50 <ais523> alise: try Perl6 grammars, if you want to avoid yacc and lex
17:55:09 <ais523> (of note: Rakudo Star was released for "early adopters" today)
17:55:11 <zzo38> If it was up to me I would use the UNIX "mail" command.
17:55:28 <zzo38> But, the UNIX "mail" command is not installed on their computers.
17:55:41 <alise> ais523: i'm not using perl 6 though
17:55:47 <alise> ais523: say, cyclexa; is it good at parsing?
17:55:50 <fizzie> There is a proliferation of parser generators; I tried out Coco/R (not a horrible experience, but not entirely pleasant either) few months ago.
17:55:54 <ais523> alise: it's what it's designed for
17:56:03 <ais523> but no, because it isn't implemented yet
17:56:21 <alise> ais523: do you know what it looks like?
17:56:44 <cpressey> ais523: Perl6 has a built-in grammar construct? Hm
17:56:47 <fizzie> (Also SableCC was used in some course or other, and it wasn't completely horrible either.)
17:57:09 <cpressey> I tried out CoCo/R a *long* time ago. The first ALPACA was coded using it.
17:57:32 <ais523> alise: Perl6? or Cyclexa?
17:57:41 <ais523> Cyclexa looks like regexps just with more punctuation marks
17:58:09 <ais523> it's unfortunately not particularly readable, as one of the minor design rules was to golf the thing
17:58:17 <ais523> perhaps I'll add in sugar if I ever get around to implementing it
17:58:24 <alise> so, say you want to parse {word ...}, where ... is free text, nested; but also {word ... :a ... :b ...} to have the a and b parts separate, for arbitrary word/a/b
17:58:30 <alise> (and arbitrary number of parameters)
17:58:35 <alise> what would the general idea of that be in cyclexa?
17:58:39 <cpressey> I can never get into parser generators, they always seem a little incestuous to me, mixing grammar and code like that.
17:59:05 <fizzie> cpressey: Not all of them mix it up. Some have separation of grammar and code as a primary design feature.
17:59:13 <cpressey> Combinator parsers are less bad -- there it's more the case that I haven't found one I like yet
17:59:58 <cpressey> pikhq: I don't like some of it's default choices
18:00:01 <zzo38> cpressey: Perhaps write one in the way that you like it?
18:00:25 <cpressey> zzo38: Yes -- I have one that's mostly written at this point. i should finish it
18:00:26 <ais523> (\{('a-z_'+)( :'a-z'!|'^ '*)*\}
18:00:40 <fizzie> I seem to recall that Grammatica (which is C#/Java), for example, does things so that the grammar file is completely generic and contains no code, and the code's in a separate class.
18:00:47 <ais523> (\{('a-z_'+)($1!| :'a-z'!|'^ '*)*\}
18:01:00 <ais523> and I forgot the closing paren
18:01:02 <cpressey> fizzie: I would prefer that way of organizing stuff. I should check it out
18:01:39 <ais523> alise: I may have made some minor mistakes, but that's basically how it would work
18:01:59 <fizzie> SableCC did something similar, but I don't exactly remember what.
18:02:00 <alise> ais523: that's nice.
18:02:29 <ais523> strangely, all the Cyclexa operators used there also exist in Perl5
18:02:44 <ais523> although it would just try to match, it wouldn't remember the resulting parse tree like Cyclexa does
18:02:47 <cpressey> I was thinking of calling my combinator parser "Jeeves" (because I was using it to implement a language called "Wooster") -- but I just googled "jeeves parser" and there already *is* a parser gen called "Jeeves" -- fizzie was right about there being a proliferation
18:03:06 <ais523> meh, there are two esolangs called Clue
18:03:29 <Sgeo> We should combine them!
18:04:00 <cpressey> er, maybe it's just a template-driven code gen -- but it's close anyway
18:06:23 <alise> ais523: basically writing it in python would be a bitch
18:06:31 <alise> do you think it would be alright in perl, writing a parser for that?
18:07:37 <ais523> regexps do badly for parsing; they check whether your data is in the form you want, but it's a pain to actually get a parse tree out of that
18:08:12 <alise> "# Kills him! I was half expecting it, but also not really expecting it. I thought Lenny would go down to the basement and find Jimmy and then something dramatic would happen. I didn't really expect him to just kill Gammell here and now.
18:08:12 <alise> # Take photo. Opening credits roll. Whoa. That's it?"
18:08:27 <alise> David Morgan-Mar was not a very fan of Backwards Memento.
18:08:49 <fizzie> Maybe you should parse some HTML with regexps! (Cf. that stackoverflow losing-sanity post.)
18:09:49 <ais523> as of Perl 5.8 or so, it can be done
18:09:52 <ais523> this does not mean it's a good idea
18:10:30 <ais523> alise: did I tell you about my collaboration with ESR?
18:10:39 <alise> ais523: No, but I've vomited pre-emptively.
18:10:41 <fizzie> Given that you can just basically stick a full Perl program inside a regex around it, I guess you *can* do pretty much anything.
18:11:02 <ais523> he's trying to create the complete version history of every C-INTERCAL version ever
18:11:10 <ais523> also, to merge his unreleased changes with the latest source
18:11:30 <alise> don't accept them ew ew ew you'll get esr cooties
18:11:46 <ais523> I don't think it works like that...
18:11:57 <alise> they're probably just fetchmail integration anyway
18:12:39 <ais523> well, I don't have much of a choice
18:12:43 <ais523> because this is at the request of Knuth
18:13:10 <alise> that's like an Imperial Degree for programmers.
18:13:21 <pikhq> Okay, you have no choice but to accept. It's an Imperial Decree.
18:13:29 <AnMaster> alise, hm... opengenera supports lpd
18:13:34 <ais523> looks like he really wanted a modern INTERCAL compiler for some reason
18:13:37 <ais523> and who am I to doubt him?
18:13:41 <AnMaster> lets see if we can get this working
18:13:48 <alise> pikhq: Hey, you stole my terminology. :P
18:14:05 <AnMaster> alise, now I just need a dot matrix printer instead of a pdf output driver
18:14:40 <zzo38> If you don't have a dot matrix printer, write a program to emulate a dot matrix printer?
18:15:17 <zzo38> Of course making an emulation will not be perfect, but it can still be used for some thing, display the contents on the screen as it is printing and then send the result to the printer once the document is finished
18:15:40 <zzo38> And also you won't be able to use continuous paper
18:15:43 <fizzie> I have a spare dot matrix printer you might get, if you come to pick it up. (Note: estimated value of the printer probably won't cover your travel costs.)
18:16:21 <alise> ais523: did you ever respond to my perl question?
18:16:51 <ais523> re-ask the question and I'll remember which one it is
18:17:04 <ais523> oh, "would it be alright in perl"? I responded
18:17:05 <fizzie> Last time I visited a large office supply chain store, their detectives managed to locate three existing printer-color-ink-ribbon-things in the whole world (in some warehouse in the middle of nowhere); I ordered all three of them, so it might be nontrivial to get more now if you run out of those.
18:17:10 <ais523> <ais523> regexps do badly for parsing; they check whether your data is in the form you want, but it's a pain to actually get a parse tree out of that
18:17:26 <alise> ais523: yes, what i meant was part-regexp part-perl to parse that syntax
18:17:28 <alise> I've never really tried that
18:17:38 <ais523> that should work, I think
18:17:47 <ais523> I haven't really tried it either, except for Underload
18:17:51 <ais523> and that's rather easy to parse
18:17:56 <ais523> it is very slow, incidentally
18:18:35 <ais523> it's O(n) out from where you'd expect
18:18:52 <ais523> at least the way I did it
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18:23:32 <zzo38> What is the code in TeX for "repeat until \pageno is the same value as it was the previous time"?
18:23:34 <alise> ais523: what i don't get about parsers is, why isn't there one that doesn't require code, just splits into a nested list?
18:24:12 <ais523> alise: people tend to want more control than that
18:24:22 <alise> ais523: I don't :-)
18:24:27 <zzo38> alise: How much do you know about TeX?
18:24:37 <alise> zzo38: Not much about plain TeX.
18:24:41 <alise> Or LaTeX; but a bit of that.
18:25:37 <zzo38> What I know is that Plain TeX does not have blackboard bold, there is various other mathematical symbols missing, too.
18:25:52 <zzo38> How much do you know about LaTeX?
18:26:07 <alise> Not much, but enough to use it competently for simple stuff and for complicated stuff with a bit of Googling.
18:26:10 <fizzie> alise: SableCC constructs an AST without any code, but you'd end up with your AST made out of separate classes (corresponding to the grammar productions), and then you'd need to walk those.
18:26:20 <alise> fizzie: Which is a bitch.
18:26:23 <zzo38> I am writing the Icoruma->TeX conversion program, so I can use LaTeX instead of Plain TeX if I have to.
18:26:33 <alise> zzo38: I would suggest that.
18:26:35 <fizzie> alise: Yes, but on the other hand: no messy parser actions.
18:26:43 <alise> It can do things like Tables of Contents for you, which would be a big boon.
18:26:57 <alise> fizzie: I just want to do something like
18:27:32 <zzo38> alise: I have already figured out how to to table of contents even in Plain TeX
18:27:35 <alise> definition := ^[a-z] \s* '=' \s* ^expr
18:27:52 <zzo38> And how to do cross-referencing
18:28:00 <zzo38> I used this: \def\Ref#1{\xdef#1{\the\pageno}}
18:28:09 <alise> And the ^ would mean "interesting part", so the result of foo=bar would be ('definition', 'foo', ('expr', ('varname', 'bar')))
18:28:19 <alise> zzo38: Yes, but LaTeX does it for you and with lots of typographical stuff.
18:28:55 <fizzie> alise: On the third hand, also, if you just want a nested list out of it, the parser actions in some mixed grammar/code stuff (or the class in something like Grammatica) will be very very simple.
18:29:17 <zzo38> I don't think I need LaTeX unless I need to use a lot of extra matmematical symbols which are not supported in Plain TeX. (Why didn't Knuth put them in Plain TeX?)
18:29:37 <alise> zzo38: LaTeX isn't bloated or anything.
18:30:26 <zzo38> So how do you do that kind of cross-referencing in LaTeX, then?
18:30:50 <Sgeo> Big Project is Open (as Public Alpha) NOW!
18:31:26 <alise> zzo38: Making a reference to a page number, you mean?
18:31:47 <alise> \label{my-unique-name}
18:31:51 <zzo38> TeX has a very powerful macro support, so I can already do table of contents, and references, and various other things, how does LaTeX improve onto this?
18:31:53 <alise> \ref{my-unique-name}
18:32:25 <fizzie> alise: \pageref, you mean; if you're talking about page number references.
18:32:34 <alise> zzo38: LaTeX was created with close attention to typographical detail, so things will be more refined than your work, unless you're an experienced typesetter; and it has more comprehensive support for those things. Additionally, it provides several useful commands, alleviating the need to define them yourself, and often with more useful functoinality.
18:32:45 <alise> \pageref{my-unique-name} yields a page number.
18:35:03 <zzo38> alise: So that is how you do it.
18:35:41 <zzo38> But still, what kind of improvements does LaTeX add on? Plain TeX can do things like this too without too much difficulty, I showed you the codes I used
18:36:57 <pikhq> LaTeX makes everything easier to do by hand.
18:37:03 <pikhq> This is the *main* benefit.
18:37:04 <alise> LaTeX pays much more typographical attention; contains many, many more commands, more complex than the ones you have so far hand-crafted; and is altogether a consistent and useful /semantic/ system with /pluggable looks/ rather than TeX the /visual/ system with /coded-in looks/.
18:37:25 <pikhq> Otherwise, there's a lot of fine details that you probably don't notice that it does.
18:37:27 <zzo38> O, OK, so that is the difference! Thanks now I know
18:38:04 <pikhq> But, yeah; you put in semantic info and let it do the rest.
18:38:22 <fizzie> I think the main idea is that with LaTeX you get to specify the logical structure of the document (it has sections, subsections, figures, tables) and then someone else has already thought out how to make it look nice; it's not so low-level that you'd have to say how something looks, as opposed to what something is.
18:38:54 <fizzie> (I had that whole long sentence written, I didn't want it to go waste even if you two already said the same things twice.)
18:39:02 <pikhq> Of course, if you *insist*, you can just straight-up futz with the look of the document.
18:39:11 <pikhq> (it *is* still TeX, just with a bunch of macros defined)
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18:41:11 <fizzie> I could, however, understand someone not using LaTeX and opting for hand-crafted lowlevelness just "because"; I don't really have a valid explanation of everything I've ever reimplemented while fiddling with things.
18:41:39 <alise> fizzie: Way to give therapy to zzo38's NIH :-P
18:41:45 <alise> cpressey so does need to become a NIH therapist.
18:41:53 <alise> NIH, the rapist of minds.
18:42:00 <fizzie> alise: I mean, if I didn't write it, why on earth would it be any good for anything?
18:44:56 <zzo38> Does LaTeX also have more mathematical symbols?
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18:46:06 <fizzie> There's AMS-LaTeX for lots of mathematical symbols; but didn't they have an AMS-TeX too?
18:46:42 <cpressey> Like all good psychiatric types, I would just end up subtly encouraging NIH to keep my patient roster full, of course.
18:47:14 <zzo38> I don't know, is there Plain TeX with AMS added on? If so, I would make the next version of Enhanced CWEB support it
18:48:43 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Kurt Gödel looks delightfully evil... <-- both name and look fit perfectly for a mad scientist villain
18:49:43 <fizzie> oerjan: He should've had a cat on his lap in more pictures.
18:50:12 <oerjan> are there _any_ such pictures?
18:50:19 <zzo38> How do I activate the use of AMS with Plain TeX?
18:50:30 <fizzie> "More than zero", based on a quick Google image search.
18:51:01 <fizzie> http://www.ams.org/publications/authors/tex/tex has download links for AMS-TeX; I have no clue what is in there that wouldn't be in AMS-LaTeX, or vice versa, but supposedly it has some docs in the distribution too.
18:51:04 <oerjan> presumably it was a package, like latex itself is
18:51:26 <fizzie> "Each collection includes a user's guide"; that sounds promising.
18:52:44 <zzo38> It says MediaWiki supports LaTeX markup, but commands such as \count don't work? Is that only for Plain TeX? Or are those commands just unavailable in MediaWiki?
18:53:15 <oerjan> no relevant hits on google picture search
18:53:34 <alise> Okay, anyone parsed stuff in Python?
18:53:42 <fizzie> oerjan: No; but there were very strange pictures of a hammer, and a hairy naked man.
18:53:44 <alise> zzo38: AMS-TeX is heavily deprecated.
18:53:48 <alise> Not even Spivak, its author, would use it
18:53:57 <alise> (Yes, oerjan; /that/ Spivak.)
18:54:05 <alise> cpressey: With? Just plain Python?
18:54:21 <cpressey> alise: Yes. Then I tried a combinator parser dealie which sucked. So I wrote my own.
18:54:37 <cpressey> But I'm strange you see. I *like* writing RDPs.
18:54:52 -!- alise has left (?).
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18:55:00 <alise> Python makes them painful.
18:55:06 <zzo38> Really? AMS-TeX is deprecated? I would use it in Enhanced CWEB, if it is compatible with Plain TeX
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18:55:16 <alise> All I want to parse is {tag body body body :param body body body :param body body body ...} nested in body.
18:55:33 <alise> zzo38: Well, perhaps not officially /deprecated/; but very unmaintained.
18:55:39 <alise> "AMS-TeX was originally written by Michael Spivak, and was used by the AMS from 1983 to 1985."
18:56:00 <cpressey> Oddly, actually, it's Java where I've found writing an RDP to be the least pleasant. C, Perl, Python, all about the same level of hassle. Well, the C routines I use, I guess have been around a lot longer and have aged like fine cheese.
18:56:12 <zzo38> (A MediaWiki comment also says that \underrightarrow is also not supported, so it isn't only \count and \def that don't work)
18:56:33 <cpressey> alise: That's like two or three productions, tops.
18:56:56 <cpressey> People other than me would say using a parser gen for it would be overkill.
18:56:59 <zzo38> Does MiKTeX include support for AMS-TeX?
18:57:09 <alise> cpressey: Yeah -- now try and write it as a recursive descent parser in Python.
18:57:20 <alise> zzo38: Probably not.
18:58:21 <cpressey> def parse_body(): expect '{'; tag = scan(); while token != '}' parse_body(); expect '}';
18:58:27 <cpressey> of course you need to parse params too
18:58:33 <cpressey> but i don't know what rules you are using for that
18:58:42 <alise> Okay, here's a full description of the syntax:
18:58:43 <cpressey> and of course that is teh bad python
18:58:43 <AnMaster> alise, symbolics documentation on installing a printer:
18:58:44 <AnMaster> In order to install a printer, you have to:
18:58:44 <AnMaster> * Cable the printer to a Symbolics system
18:58:49 <AnMaster> the first item there... wtf XD
18:59:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: It was even better since I misread it as "Uncreate the printer".
18:59:21 <cpressey> AnMaster: It needs a label: DO NOT PLUG IN WHILE STILL IN CRATE
18:59:47 <alise> cpressey: Every node is either arbitrary plain-text without { or }, or a node of the format {TAGNAME ... PARAMS}, where TAGNAME is just an a-z case-insensitive string, ... is more of these nodes that I'm describing, except terminated on the first whitespace followed by ":". Params are :TAGNAME ... with whitespace always before the :, with the ... terminated in the same way.
19:00:09 <AnMaster> In bold under the section "Uncrating the Printer": "Check the outside of the box containing the printer for unpacking and installation instructions."
19:00:14 <alise> {link {bold Go}{italic ogle} :to http://google.com/ :andoverthetopfornoparticularreason hello, {bold world}!}
19:00:18 <AnMaster> this just gets better for every line!!
19:00:22 <fizzie> I seem to have only written a parser for Rail -- as in, the 2d trail-following esolang -- in Python, and that's not very recursive-descent by nature.
19:01:08 <fizzie> "Hello, bold world!" sounds somehow more upbeat than a regular hello-world message.
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19:02:09 <alise> cpressey: Writing this in Python is teh pain.
19:05:02 <Gregor-P> Seems that generally people want a Hackiki as an adjunct to the MediaWiki
19:05:19 <AnMaster> why... is they naming the example printer in the docs "pravda"
19:06:20 <alise> Gregor-P: We'll probably neglect it.
19:06:40 <fizzie> It's a reasonable name, still; the word's known widely even among non-Russian-speaking folks.
19:07:24 <fizzie> Also good name for a printer; it would not feel out-of-place to print flyers to extremist-political demonstrations on it.
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19:08:36 <oklopol> fizzie: did you paste what i asked you to
19:08:46 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh noes, sorry. I'll do that now.
19:09:08 <zzo38> Gregor-P: I also agree, add Hackiki as an adjunct to the MediaWiki.
19:09:16 <fizzie> :d:D:D:D:Dd:Ddddd:-D:DDDDD
19:09:21 <fizzie> I compleatly forgot about it.
19:09:27 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
19:09:33 <oklopol> this is the best day of my life
19:09:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: Don't look at me; he wanted it.
19:09:46 <oklopol> for two reasons actually, the other happened at uni
19:09:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is so out of character. Using a longer than maybe 4 smiley
19:09:58 <fizzie> oklopol: You met your true love at the uni?!
19:10:02 <oklopol> you know how toilet paper comes from those weird boxes in public shitting places
19:10:03 <zzo38> If some people want to convert some of the pages over they can do so, possibly someone will add a MediaWiki parser in that Hackiki site if they want that.....
19:10:14 <fizzie> oklopol: Thus far it's not sounding like a love story.
19:10:15 <oklopol> there are two rolls in one
19:10:18 <AnMaster> <fizzie> oklopol: You met your true love at the uni?!
19:10:18 <AnMaster> <oklopol> you know how toilet paper comes from those weird boxes in public shitting places
19:10:24 <oklopol> and the other roll was the wrong way around
19:10:24 <zzo38> I think you should provide read-only access to some of the MediaWiki files from Hackiki
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19:10:37 <zzo38> So that some people can experiment a few things
19:10:39 <oklopol> and the paper was hanging down
19:10:46 <oklopol> so what when you pulled paper out
19:10:51 <zzo38> Also, add the <math> tag to the MediaWiki installation you have
19:10:55 <oklopol> the other paper came out from the side of the wall!
19:11:04 <oklopol> so you had to take pieces in turns
19:11:07 <alise> <fizzie> AnMaster: Don't look at me; he wanted it.
19:11:11 <alise> That's not considered a valid defence.
19:11:29 <oklopol> fizzie: yeah don't be a german
19:11:33 <AnMaster> I think I can safely conclude that plug-and-play was invented way after symbolics went defunct
19:11:36 <fizzie> oklopol: Do you mean the sort of thing that has a big roll and a small roll, and you can sort of access both simultaneously, or just the sort where there's one roll at the bottom, and then one (or two; I've seen two too) back-up rolls on top of it, meant to drop down when the first one's exhausted?
19:12:30 <oklopol> i've never seen it happen before, but it was seriously so awesome
19:12:55 <fizzie> oklopol: Okay, yes, our toilets have those two. I've seen one of them in a state where the down-hanging piece of paper was actually the middle roll, and it was rotating around there in the middle; there's this sort of thing holding it up, so it didn't get friction from the bottom roll. (There's a narrow gap in front you can then use to drop it past those roll-holders if the bottom roll is finito.)
19:13:15 <oklopol> i stared at it for 5 minutes and could barely fight the urge to start knocking on doors telling random people about it
19:13:43 <ais523> oklopol: I can actually believe that
19:13:56 <fizzie> alise: "Look how his nickname is shaped; he was so asking for it."
19:14:21 <alise> aww oklopol and fizzie are such a cute couple
19:14:24 <ais523> the same sort of discovery as when you put a battery in backwards in an old-fashioned analog battery-powered clock, and the hands start ticking backwards
19:15:20 <oklopol> holy shit that would be awesome
19:15:33 <oklopol> i have to see a clock going backwards
19:15:49 <oerjan> it's how Gregor-P got in that closed time loop
19:16:04 <oklopol> oh, i guess that's why i've "never" seen it
19:16:48 <oklopol> from our perspective, he'll just disappear?
19:16:53 <fizzie> ais523: That reminds me of a story. My printer had its front panel lights flashing briefly every now and then (once every few hours or so) when it was turned off; so I went to the manufacturer's website, and the knowledge base had that as a known issue: the fix was to unplug the printer, rotate the plug 180 degrees around the cord axis, then re-plug it back. Sure enough, after I rotated the plug the flashing stopped.
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19:16:58 <oklopol> no wait probably there's something like a tm involved
19:17:15 <ais523> fizzie: ouch, that printer model must have a dodgy ground plane
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19:18:03 <Gregor-W> Yeesh, I'll have to remember that this time 'round.
19:18:20 <alise> <ais523> the same sort of discovery as when you put a battery in backwards in an old-fashioned analog battery-powered clock, and the hands start ticking backwards
19:18:37 <oklopol> fizzie: how many flashes did you wait in front of the printer before checking the webpage?
19:18:48 <fizzie> I'm trying to find the KB article, but the "customer support" site is giving me a "WrongChannelException: Channel is null for siteId=204816596 and channelId=374757490" Java exception and a 46 methods deep stacktrace.
19:18:58 <alise> Gregor-W: Hi! You are Gregor-W.
19:19:06 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if it works on all models, but it definitely works on some
19:19:09 <fizzie> oklopol: A week's worth of clock-time, but I wasn't staring at it all the time.
19:19:12 <ais523> I know, because I've done it by accident
19:19:13 <Gregor-W> alise: Thank you, /me writes this down.
19:19:28 <Gregor-W> alise: Where's our TC CPP code? ;)
19:19:45 <alise> Gregor-W: Oh, I'll give it to you in just a m...
19:19:48 <alise> Gregor-W: Hi! You are Gregor-W.
19:20:12 * oerjan expects there's a reference he doesn't get
19:20:18 <Gregor-W> OK, you seem to have gotten caught into some ridiculously short prograde-amnesia-induced loop.
19:20:27 <oklopol> i was wondering if it was about the loop but no idea what it'd mean
19:20:35 <oerjan> oklopol: actually, it's world-domination.
19:20:38 * ais523 has trouble remembering events from the future
19:20:39 <fizzie> ais523: Oooh: "Lexmark is conducting a voluntary recall of the E230, E232, E232t, E330, E332, E332n, and E332tn printer models. This recall is being done in cooperation with consumer safety agencies around the world.
19:20:39 <fizzie> Lexmark has not received any reports of incidents or injuries involving these printers. However, through internal reliability testing, Lexmark has identified a potential safety issue in one printer after the equivalent of several years of normal usage. In the unlikely event of a multiple component failure, the printer could present an electrical shock hazard if it is connected to an ungrounded power source."
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19:20:59 <ais523> fizzie: seems reasonable
19:21:24 <ais523> if your printer is capable of detecting the difference between live-neutral and neutral-live, it must be that the chassis earth potential is involved somehow
19:21:31 <ais523> which it shouldn't be, for safety and sanity reasons
19:22:07 <oerjan> insane printers for your hideously non-euclidean printing needs
19:22:18 <fizzie> ais523: They haven't really advertised the recall too much, though.
19:22:42 <fizzie> ais523: "For safety reasons, we ask that you unplug your printer from its power source before checking to see if your printer is subject to this recall. If your printer is connected to an ungrounded power source, we ask that you do not open the covers, do not turn off the printer, do not touch the back of the printer, and do not touch anything else connected to the printer prior to unplugging it."
19:22:53 <oklopol> umm wait non-euclidean because printers print on a plane
19:22:58 <ais523> ok, that sounds /very/ like a chassis ground failure
19:23:21 <oerjan> oklopol: _these_ printers print on a klein bottle. which doesn't intersect itself.
19:23:26 <ais523> hmm, pity that you're allowed to unplug it
19:23:29 <oerjan> well, that's the simplest setting, anyway
19:23:37 <ais523> it would be hilarious if you had to ship it back to Lexmark while it was still plugged in
19:23:57 <Gregor-W> "In spite of the clear instructions on the sticker in the case, under no circumstances should you lick any part of the printer until you have determined that it is not one of the affected models."
19:24:24 <oerjan> there are clear instructions on the sticker to lick it?
19:24:58 <alise> does it really say lick :D
19:25:19 <oerjan> DO NOT PUT PRINTER PLUG IN NOSE
19:25:40 <fizzie> ais523: On the other hand, they posted this recall notice in September 2004, and we bought the printer *after* that, and it still does the flashing-lights thing. They say only "some models" of post-August-2004 are affected. So, well.
19:26:03 <ais523> I don't see why a voluntary recall necessarily means they stop selling the things
19:26:22 <Gregor-W> "Although cherry-flavored, the magenta ink is highly toxic and should not be drank."
19:26:55 <fizzie> It does hopefully mean they'd have fixed the problem, but of course this printer has possibly been in someone's warehouse for a long long time.
19:27:19 <oklopol> Gregor-W: what are you pasting?
19:27:22 <fizzie> They *are* (well, were) promising to replace it with another unit of the same model, so one hopes the replacement version would be un-faulty.
19:27:36 <alise> Gregor-W: keep doing it it's hilarious
19:27:50 <fizzie> Actually our printer hasn't been doing the flashing-lights thing nowadays with grounded outlets, I think. Unless of course I accidentally got the plug in the right way.
19:27:53 <Gregor-W> oklopol: From my twisted brain.
19:28:10 <Gregor-W> fizzie: I would think that if they recalled a model, they would change the model number of new ones without the problem they recalled it for ...
19:28:35 <oklopol> Gregor-W: so do you people say "drank" for perfect tense nowadays or did you make a typo, or did you make a grammatical error?
19:28:54 <alise> middling tense markers; tattlesquat! I'll tell you what:
19:28:59 <oerjan> oklopol: hey i was trying not to comment on that
19:28:59 <alise> Bjorn made a trip to the embassy ...
19:29:22 <fizzie> Gregor: It's only a partial recall, so I guess they already had broken and un-broken versions floating around.
19:29:25 <oerjan> alise: he should _not_ have worn his special knife belt.
19:29:26 <Gregor-W> oklopol: It's ambiguous in this case since the ink shouldn't be drunk either.
19:29:39 <oklopol> i'm not trying to be a smart-ass, it's just Gregor-W doesn't make mistakes, so i thought "ohh there's a whole webpage of these"
19:29:40 <Gregor-W> oklopol: So I went with the unambiguous but grammatically-dubious "drank"
19:29:49 <alise> oerjan: and this knife belt, right, it was powered by the night;
19:29:55 <alise> The night! night! The very frightened night!
19:30:03 <oklopol> Gregor-W: my first thought was that that would make sense
19:30:04 <alise> and Bjorn walked to the pavement--right--and saw something fearful:
19:30:41 <alise> Gregor-W: the ink should not be drinking so much alcohol
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19:31:15 <Gregor-W> "Please be aware when planning printer-related meals that the black ink is not kosher and contains pork products."
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19:31:51 <fizzie> And, err, the fix seems to have been to include in the safety instructions the following: "[1] If your product is *not* marked with this symbol [square inside a square], it *must* be connected to an electrical outlet that is properly grounded." (Where I guess the square-inside-a-square is the usual class 2 double-insulated device symbol.)
19:32:45 <alise> oklopol: And in his wake Bjorn discovered a philosophical masturbator--
19:32:52 <alise> curator of sciences, physic & all
19:32:55 <alise> He lead Bjorn into the great hall ...
19:33:51 <ais523> then lead the hall back out of Bjorn?
19:33:54 <oklopol> Gregor-W: you could you make a website with made-up products with hilarious instructions
19:34:07 <alise> ais523: & this was met with scorn.
19:34:13 <alise> Why does he speak, Bjorn wonders, right, and this guy--
19:34:22 <alise> stupid fucking guy, I wonder why I'm even talking to him -- thinks Bjorn, and
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19:34:27 <alise> he's not really quite sure what this is all about but anyway...
19:34:37 <oklopol> alise: he's not the only one
19:34:46 <Gregor-W> "The paper tray of this printer is removable for your convenience. However, due to the high printing speed and to avoid risk of decapitation, it is highly recommended that you leave it attached when printing on card stock."
19:35:00 <alise> oklopol: well it's not bjorn's swan song!
19:36:03 <alise> Terribly disturbed, he served lemon curd:
19:36:15 <alise> and this was what was seen by the president's priest when on a visit --
19:36:21 <alise> Frightened, Bjorn said! Aah! Aah! This is what he said
19:36:29 <alise> and he said what he said before he became dead! Aaah! Aaah! This is what he said!
19:36:50 <alise> But he didn't die at this present point!
19:37:25 <ais523> """Suddenly, nothing happens."""
19:37:58 <alise> """"But quote marks do nest", said the pest", said the antediluvian nest" was a stupid thing to say", he said, but it was said anyway"
19:38:01 <oklopol> this is the best flood i've seen in ages
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19:38:14 <ais523> alise: it was meant to be a quote, so I put it in quote marks
19:38:22 <ais523> but then, because it wasn't actually a quote
19:38:24 <ais523> I put the quote marks in quotes
19:38:30 <ais523> to show that it wasn't really quoting
19:38:52 <alise> "Bjorn", later said a historian, "would have here commented on how quotes should properly be nested 'like this "and this" and this': for alternating quotes are the devil's honey, and Bjorn was a fan of the devil."
19:39:05 <ais523> if that's not an INTERCAL reference, it should be
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19:39:34 <ais523> not that it's the only way to nest quotes in INTERCAL, but it's the easiest way to stay sane
19:39:37 <alise> "All references" said a philosopher (who was called Bjorn (the Bjorn we've been talking about)) "are relative."
19:42:00 <zzo38> I found the AMSFonts package it includes macro files for Plain TeX, I don't need AMS-TeX? Will just AMS-Fonts do what I wanted within Enhanced CWEB
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19:44:18 <AnMaster> alise, one thing you can't say about opengenera is that it supports plug and play for networking and hardware
19:44:34 <Gregor-W> "We must never rest until everything inside us worships God." -- AW Tozer \ What an entirely creepy thing to say.
19:44:38 <AnMaster> alise, atm I'm looking at the documentation of a function to define a postscript printer type
19:45:08 <alise> Gregor-W: Say hi to religion.
19:45:23 <Gregor-W> I would rather cry in the fetal position, TYVM.
19:47:02 <Gregor-W> cpressey: By the way, a lot of the dependencies of C code on the machine wrapping things right is actually the compiler being clever with optimizations. IIRC (there was some case very similar to this), GCC multiplies by 10 without multiplying or shifting. It's convoluted magic.
19:47:58 <alise> Hmm, did I ever publish that Wiktionary-to-OED thing?
19:48:13 <alise> It would look up a word in Wikitionary then reformat it to look like the definitions you find in the OED.
19:48:30 <Gregor-W> alise: Work on TC CPP instead :P
19:49:10 <alise> Gregor-W: Okay; give me a simple recursive algorithm to implement that uses lists in a simple way.
19:50:53 <Gregor-W> Hmmm, MAYBE a cyclic tag system, which was ais523's (?) first thought too.
19:51:39 <ais523> Gregor-W: cyclic tag tends to be simplest for that sort of thing
19:52:08 <alise> Gregor-W: I suck at writing them, though.
19:52:38 <ais523> although, cyclic tag likes queue-equivalents, and lists are better at stack-equivalents
19:56:03 <alise> http://www.laws-of-form.net/lof/pdf/Denjoy_proof.pdf A "proof" of Riemann's hypothesis (and "much, much more" sort of thing) by the author of that piece of twaddle Laws of Form.
19:56:09 <Gregor-W> ais523: Stack-equivalents aren't as good at being-Turing-complete equivalents ... and forming two stacks MIGHT be tricky ...
19:56:09 <alise> Anyone want to rip into it?
19:56:40 <ais523> no, the Riemann Hypothesis scares me
19:56:49 <alise> ais523: it seems to use much more simple mathematics, actually.
19:56:57 <alise> by proving a supposedly-stronger theorem
19:57:12 <ais523> it's not the complexity, it's the connection to the primes
19:58:08 <Gregor-W> alise: I THINK you should be able to do two stacks in CPP, right? And with two stacks you've got a tape, and with a tape it shouldn't be difficult to make an actual Turing machine.
19:58:46 <alise> Gregor-W: Yes, but *iterating* through these is VERY hard; you must use recursive includes.
19:59:17 <Gregor-W> alise: Each state could be a separate #include file which re-#defines the two halves, then #includes the next part. Think of it like iteration even though strictly it's doing recursive includes.
19:59:58 <Gregor-W> And each one does the transform of that state as an actual transformation, since you can #undef and re-#define in CPP.
20:00:11 <Gregor-W> Then includes whichever next state is appropriate.
20:00:22 <Gregor-W> You could also have multiple states just by #define STATE 3 or whatever :P
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20:00:33 <alise> cpressey: Pixley minimalisation suggestions: Remove booleans; just use the symbols #t and #f.
20:00:47 -!- coppro has quit (Changing host).
20:00:47 -!- coppro has joined.
20:00:55 <alise> Specify that (define #t '#t) and (define #f '#f) must be in place.
20:02:03 <Gregor-W> If you made the tapes look like a, (b, (c, ())) then you could have every macro just take two arguments, head and tail.
20:02:18 <alise> Gregor-W: Heh, it is Not That Easy.
20:02:23 <alise> I have a working list structure... but it is difficult.
20:02:39 <Gregor-W> Wish I wasn't at work so I could prove to myself that it's Not That Easy :P
20:03:05 <alise> Fine, I'll try it Your Way.
20:03:16 <Gregor-W> I'm just throwin' out thoughts here.
20:03:34 <alise> It definitely can't be so simple as
20:03:36 <alise> It will have to be
20:03:47 <alise> #define hd_(h,t) h
20:03:47 <alise> #define hd(l) hd_(l)
20:03:49 <alise> I have verified this.
20:04:07 <Gregor-W> I didn't mention that detail because I knew you already knew that :P
20:04:10 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Code/cpp$ cpp -std=c99 -Wall -pedantic -undef -nostdinc -P list2.hlist2.h:9:37: error: macro "tl_" requires 2 arguments, but only 1 given
20:04:10 <alise> list2.h:9:37: error: macro "hd_" requires 2 arguments, but only 1 given
20:04:20 <alise> I am as of yet struggling to find a reason for this.
20:04:29 <Gregor-W> When hd() is called with what?
20:04:35 <alise> hd(tl(cons(a,cons(b,cons(c,d)))))
20:04:37 <alise> yields one less error
20:04:41 <alise> Gregor-W: Lemme debug.
20:04:44 <Gregor-W> Uhhh ... that is one argument.
20:04:53 <alise> tl(cons(a,cons(b,cons(c,d))))
20:05:05 <alise> You can't "unwrap" it from the ()s, either.
20:05:09 <alise> Thus debunking your list structure; it must be flat.
20:05:37 <Gregor-W> #define unwrap_(h, t) h,t \n #define unwrap(l) unwrap_ l]
20:05:55 <Gregor-W> But it's certainly worth a shot.
20:06:11 <alise> Gregor: No need for anything so complex, btw.
20:06:14 <alise> #define cons(h,t) (h,t)
20:06:14 <alise> #define hd_(h,t) h
20:06:14 <alise> #define hd(l) hd_ l
20:06:14 <alise> #define tl_(h,t) t
20:06:14 <alise> #define tl(l) tl_ l
20:06:28 <pikhq> Hmm. This actually suggests that C could have *good* metaprogramming from this.
20:06:39 <alise> pikhq: it's iteration that's hard (almost impossible)
20:06:46 <alise> I will now extend this to have markers for nil/cons.
20:06:50 <alise> However, booleans are very tricksy.
20:07:07 <ais523> can you use hd and tl as true and false?
20:07:48 <alise> However, booleans are very tricksy.
20:07:59 <alise> ais523: alas, no; and nor specially designed ones, either
20:08:12 <alise> #define hd_(d,h,t) d(h, ERROR_IS_NIL)
20:08:17 <alise> but then the tail that is produced
20:08:19 <alise> the d is marked as from-cpp
20:08:22 <alise> and so is not recursively expanded
20:08:26 <alise> so it just becomes true(h, ERROR_IS_NIL)
20:08:32 <alise> This is my approach.
20:09:15 <alise> #define nil (1,END,END)
20:09:15 <alise> #define cons(h,t) (0,h,t)
20:09:15 <alise> #define isnil_(d,h,t) d
20:09:15 <alise> #define isnil(l) isnil_ l
20:09:15 <alise> #define hd_(d,h,t) h
20:09:16 <alise> #define hd(l) hd_ l
20:09:18 <alise> #define tl_(d,h,t) t
20:09:20 <alise> #define tl(l) tl_ l
20:10:59 <alise> list2.h:21:14: error: missing binary operator before token "tl_"
20:11:31 <alise> Gregor-P: all this seems to run into the no-recursive-expansion mess i'm afraid
20:12:32 <Gregor-P> I'm not sure why, you should only ever need to take one step...
20:13:14 <alise> http://pastie.org/1067545.txt?key=9jy5nwppi2mgw55z1wbneg
20:13:21 <alise> Run this with "cpp -std=c99 -Wall -pedantic -undef -nostdinc -P" and study the error.
20:13:31 <alise> Then perhaps you will see how cpp's anti-tricksyness laws are stopping us.
20:14:12 <alise> Well, in this case,
20:14:16 <alise> it is that #define bar foo does not copy foo to bar.
20:14:24 <alise> Therefore how do we do it?
20:14:28 <alise> I do not know that it is possible.
20:14:48 <alise> Perhaps someone could link me to the Game of Life so I can study it.
20:15:18 <zzo38> What are you trying to do with the C preprocessor now?
20:15:32 <alise> Prove it Turing-complete.
20:16:03 <zzo38> Did you look at ORDERPP?
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20:16:45 <alise> I have no idea what they are.
20:16:45 <pikhq> Argh, anti-tricksyness.
20:17:15 <pikhq> The C preprocessor is literally trying to prevent itself from being more generally useful.
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20:17:35 <zzo38> Did you try: #define isnil(l) isnil_##l maybe you need a ## sign, I'm not quite sure about that
20:18:31 <zzo38> I know that in ORDERPP codes, you have functions with 8 before each function name, like 8if(8and(8x),8y) and things like that
20:18:36 <pikhq> zzo38: He doesn't want token concatenation.
20:19:13 <zzo38> I found the C preprocessor useful in writing ARGOPT
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20:19:58 <fizzie> It's probably just trying to prevent non-halting preprocessor expansions, which is perhaps a bit misguided; but you know what they say about preprocessor abusers. (Actually, what *do* they say about them?)
20:20:27 <pikhq> fizzie: But we *wants* non-halting preprocessor expansions.
20:21:18 <zzo38> I believe the "8" before the function names in ORDERPP is probably to delay expansions or something, like that, so that you can expand the parts later with different codes, or something, I don't actually know why, but I guessed
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20:23:04 <AnMaster> wonderful, I got a cover page in the pdf, that is all...
20:23:19 <AnMaster> no actual screen hard copy though
20:26:43 <zzo38> I know that ORDERPP is turing complete, and is written entirely using the C preprocessor.
20:28:03 <fizzie> But the internet doesn't know it at all, so we have no clue what it's like.
20:28:14 <fizzie> The internet defined by google, anyway.
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20:33:33 <zzo38> There is also Enhanced CWEB in which you can do many things even before the preprocessor, but that isn't based purely on the C preprocessor. You can do things like http://sprunge.us/WSfI but you can also write metamacros for various things, too.
20:34:42 <Sgeo> Stupid "throw" where I didn't want one!
20:34:50 <Sgeo> Now, instead of one puzzle crashing, the whole game crashed!
20:35:06 <zzo38> Sgeo: In what thing?
20:35:29 <Sgeo> I'd give a link, but the website's in Flash and not very helpful
20:35:30 <alise> zzo38: What is ORDERPP?
20:36:16 <zzo38> ORDERPP is a set of C preprocessor macros for making it Turing-complete.
20:37:07 <alise> Can you publish it somewhere?
20:37:18 <zzo38> I think it is on SourceForge and is part of the same project as CHAOSPP.
20:37:32 <alise> I can't find CHAOSPP.
20:38:10 <zzo38> Unfortunately on Google, searching for "chaospp" and "orderpp" together returns no results.
20:39:10 <fizzie> Searching for only one of them also returns no relevant results, and searching for "chaospp" and "preprocessor" (or "orderpp" and "preprocessor") also finds no results, so they are pretty elusive stuff.
20:39:46 <alise> I remember seeing some awfully great cpp programming framework on sourceforge once.
20:39:52 <alise> But I don't think it was (CHAOS|ORDER)PP.
20:40:31 <zzo38> Try searchings things other than Google, try SourceForge, or Archie or Veronica even, or Tor or Freenet or GNUtella or whatever
20:41:08 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:41:53 <alise> Find anything on GNUtella? /Ha!/
20:43:01 * Sgeo vaguely screams
20:43:19 <Sgeo> I'm waiting for someone
20:43:23 <zzo38> But one of the limitations in C preprocessor is macros cannot expand to other preprocessor directives (including definition of other macros)
20:43:24 <Sgeo> While the public is in-world
20:43:43 <pikhq> alise: That is such an awful pun.
20:43:53 <alise> pikhq: What; gnutella?
20:44:00 <alise> It is; isn't it great? You probably know it as LimeWire.
20:44:14 <alise> You know, the crappy P2P network that's just viruses disguised as porn clips.
20:45:03 <zzo38> You can create include files that use #include to conditionally define things and stuff, but you can't do it other things.
20:45:24 <fizzie> You can expand macros into the special "_Pragma" preprocessor unary-operator (not the #pragma directive form, the function-like form), but that's probably not very useful usually.
20:45:47 <zzo38> What you can do in C preprocessor however, is define one macro and then later define other macros that the first macro uses and call the first macro. This is something done in ARGOPT.
20:46:32 <zzo38> That is the standard-edition of ARGOPT. I might then later also write web-edition of ARGOPT, which includes some additional functions such as printing out the parameters in a table with documentation, and generating man pages
20:46:56 <zzo38> If I do so, I will be maintaining standard-edition and web-edition separately.
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20:47:54 <alise> are you the plan9 uriel?
20:48:11 <alise> Okay, presumably not.
20:48:20 <fizzie> Or Uriel Septim, the emperor?
20:48:33 <fizzie> Oh, sorry, that's a fictional guy.
20:49:01 <alise> Right, well, hello אוּרִיאֵל.
20:49:06 <zzo38> I suppose it can sometimes be useful to use _Pragma operator, maybe someone might use it with OpenMP possibly
20:49:16 <alise> uriel7: I suppose you are brought here for the esoterica, not for the programming?
20:50:22 <alise> Then you are in the right place.
20:50:43 <zzo38> For programming or not, there is many things discussed in this channel
20:50:50 <zzo38> But the main topic is esoteric programming
20:50:51 <alise> Yeah, but very rarely esoterica :-P
20:51:16 <zzo38> But you can discuss other things too, it doesn't have to be about esoteric programming
20:52:31 <uriel7> was looking for palce to talk nothing more
20:52:39 <fizzie> Slereah: Shouldn't that be a mirmaid? I mean, it would make more sense in a wovel-categorisationary way. Or am I overthinking it?
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20:56:51 <alise> Gregor-W: Three holes in the ground.
20:56:56 <alise> uriel7: so what are your favourite esolangs?
20:58:34 <alise> Anyone have greppable logs? Gregor?
20:58:40 <alise> uriel7: Made any yourself? Written any programs?
21:00:14 <Gregor-W> alise: Mine aren't up to date as my home system isn't running.
21:00:46 <alise> That's okay; I'd just like you to grep for /wikti?onary/i, if that's alright, and provide a list of dates.
21:01:06 <Gregor-W> I'm also not near a computer that has them checked out :P
21:01:17 -!- uriel7 has quit (Quit: Q: How much does it cost to ride the Unibus? A: 2 bits.).
21:03:52 <fizzie> alise: There are quite many of those.
21:04:23 <alise> fizzie: ok; said by (ehird|tusho).*
21:04:52 <fizzie> Regrepping; for the record, 150 lines with /wikti?onary/i in them, I didn't yet uniq them to dates.
21:06:00 <Gregor-W> *flash of brilliance* the esoteric logs should be in the (hypothetical) esolangs Hackiki, then anybody could grep them from afar.
21:06:36 <alise> Gregor-W: Or... just make a web interface to it.
21:06:45 <Gregor-W> Yeah, but this would be more general :P
21:06:50 <Gregor-W> And more general is exactly equal to better.
21:07:03 <fizzie> 2008-04-20, 2008-06-13, 2008-08-22, 2008-09-21, 2008-09-24, 2009-05-19, 2009-06-07, 2009-08-02, 2009-08-18; they all seem to be mostly quoting some single word from there (mostly); but my logs are not completely complete.
21:07:18 <fizzie> Were you looking for something in particular?
21:07:27 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/esoteric$ grep -ri 'wikti?onary' 08.*
21:07:27 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/esoteric$ grep -ri 'wikti?onary' 09.*
21:07:27 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/esoteric$ grep -ri 'wikti?onary' 10.*
21:07:30 <alise> What's that, then...
21:07:40 <alise> fizzie: Yes; my Wiktionary lookup tool.
21:07:55 <alise> It formatted them all nice-like, OED-style.
21:07:58 <fizzie> You need either \? or -E in the grep.
21:07:59 <AnMaster> okay this is hilarious: I have cups printing to a lpd server, which is actually cups-lpd on the same host, mapped to cups-pdf
21:08:14 <AnMaster> and this works. However, it does not from opengenera
21:08:35 <alise> 10.06.25:18:50:06 <alise> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fuck -- how on earth am i meant to present a definition of "fuck" to the user like this
21:08:37 <alise> looks like around this time
21:08:44 <alise> 10.06.25:19:19:16 <alise> Gregor: I just mangled Wiktionary into something readable.
21:08:58 <fizzie> Seems I wasn't present at that particular time.
21:10:09 <fizzie> I do have a lot of chatter on 2010-06-25, though; inexplicablity.
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21:10:18 <fizzie> Oh, right; I grepped for ehird|tusho, like you said, not alise.
21:10:50 <alise> Yeah, didn't realise it was that recent. Should have, of course.
21:11:00 <fizzie> WYGIWYAFAINGW, after all.
21:11:34 <fizzie> "What you get is what you ask for, and it's no good whining".
21:11:46 <fizzie> It was to pre-empt any whining; didn't think you'd be that gracious.
21:11:51 <fizzie> Sorry for that. Retroactively.
21:12:05 <alise> 18:52:05 <alise> " She shoved them up and together, pushing into me, forcing my foot to fuck her tits harder and harder while gasping as if I was shoving it deep into her body..."
21:12:08 <alise> 18:52:08 <alise> Yep, the OED would quote that.
21:12:08 <alise> 18:52:16 <alise> Classy, Wiktionary.
21:12:08 <alise> 18:52:17 <alise> Classy.
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21:15:30 <alise> [[In the Oxford Latin Dictionary, the word irrumo is defined "[t]o practise irrumatio on." Great. Irrumatio, less than helpfully, is "[t]he action of an irrumator." We finally learn that an irrumator is "[o]ne who submits to fellatio." And thus, after flipping your way through three different entries, you get a definition that, while described precisely enough (and better than its counterpart in the main Victorian Latin dictionary, "to commit beastly acts"
21:15:30 <alise> ), is completely wrong. An irrumator is the active, not the passive, participant. The real meaning of irrumo is something like "to fuck (someone) in the face, esp. as a way of asserting dominance"; it is frequently found in the locker-room talk of Catullus and also appears in Martial's scurrilous epigrams.]]
21:16:14 <alise> 19:04:58 <Gregor> PCC on Linux is a suckfest.
21:16:14 <alise> 19:05:04 <Gregor> And not the good kind.
21:17:38 <alise> 19:34:53 <alise> wikipedia, v. past tense of wipe.
21:17:38 <alise> 19:34:54 <alise> WHAT
21:17:38 <alise> 19:36:05 <alise> oh ha
21:17:38 <alise> 19:36:22 <alise> it picks up on the deletion notice saying "deleted" which is like ... wiping, i assume
21:17:38 <alise> 19:36:31 <alise> dunno
21:17:48 <alise> I propose we henceforth use "wikipedia" instead of "wiped".
21:17:57 <alise> I wikipedia my ass with toilet paper.
21:18:09 <alise> 19:36:44 <Gregor> "He told me to wipe off the dishes, so I wikipedia them for an hour or so but got tired of it."
21:18:12 <alise> Dammit, beaten to the punch
21:18:13 <fizzie> Based on the "insignificant part" fair-useness and so on, here's "fuck, v." in current OED; http://sprunge.us/ODbU -- that's one long definition.
21:18:32 <alise> fizzie: you have the electronic OED?
21:18:42 <fizzie> Via the university's proxy, yes.
21:18:52 <alise> also, I see they have given up on pretensions of conciseness. That is more an encyclopedia article.
21:18:59 <fizzie> We need to look up "fuck" all the time at work, you see.
21:19:16 <alise> http://pastie.org/1019589.txt?key=iveweg7njbmwqqdjqpnndg
21:19:25 <Gregor-W> "As a physicist, I don't really have much cause to use mice in my regular research, which mostly requires the use of theoretical math," said Dr. Thomas Huber, author of the 1996 study Mouse Elasticity And Kinetic Rebound In High-Acceleration Collisions. "But when I have the time, I like to send them flying into walls. Even just seeing them in a cage makes me feel kind of good inside. I like knowing I'm depriving them of their fre
21:19:43 <fizzie> It's a lot conciser if you hide the etymology and quotations, like the UI lets you do.
21:19:51 <alise> It scrapes ninjaword which scrapes Wiktionary. :P
21:20:04 <alise> also, "their fr" cuts off.
21:20:19 <Gregor-W> http://www.theonion.com/articles/worlds-scientists-admit-they-just-dont-like-mice,1256/
21:20:35 <alise> bouncebackability, n. the ability of a person or team to bounce back, that is, to return to good form after a period of not performing well: "By passing the test, after last years abysmal failure, he exhibited great bouncebackability."; the ability to recover from a past relationship.
21:21:07 <fizzie> Also the 1500-era quotations are best: "Ay fukkand lyke ane furious Fornicatour." Imagine calling someone a "furious Fornicatour"; classy!
21:21:26 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/esoteric$ python define.py xtianity
21:21:26 <alise> xtianity, n. the condition of being sane; reasonable and rational behaviour.
21:21:30 <alise> Yeah, Christianity is all that.
21:22:07 <alise> Did you mean sanity?
21:22:07 <alise> °The condition of being sane.
21:22:07 <alise> °Reasonable and rational behaviour.
21:23:15 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ python define.py xtianity
21:23:15 <alise> "xtianity" ain't no word I ever heard of!
21:23:15 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ python define.py wikipedia
21:23:15 <alise> "wikipedia" ain't no word I ever heard of!
21:25:28 <Gregor-W> Makes me feel like playing some country music.
21:26:10 <alise> Gregor-W: Gimme a word to look up.
21:28:36 <fizzie> The best part about wordnet is that before definition, it lists all words that are partof the same "sense":
21:28:40 <fizzie> 1. sleep together, roll in the hay, love, make out, make love, sleep with, get laid, have sex, know, do it, be intimate, have intercourse, have it away, have it off, screw, fuck, jazz, eff, hump, lie with, bed, have a go at it, bang, get it on, bonk -- (have sexual intercourse with; "This student sleeps with everyone in her dorm"; "Adam knew Eve"; "Were you ever intimate with this man?")
21:28:46 <alise> Gregor-W: antidisestablishmentarianism, n. a political philosophy opposed to the separation of a religious group ("church") and a government ("state"), esp. the belief held by those in 19th century England opposed to separating the Anglican church from the civil government.
21:28:47 <fizzie> We as a species certainly focus on that thing.
21:29:41 <alise> fuck, v. (often obscene sometimes extremely vulgar) To have sexual intercourse, to copulate: "I asked her if she wanted to fuck and she said yes, so we had sex together last night."; (often obscene sometimes extremely vulgar) To insert one's penis, or a dildo or other phallic object, into a specified orifice or cleft; n. (vulgar) An act of sexual intercourse: "That was a great fuck."; (vulgar) A sexual partner: "She's a good fuck."; int. expressing dismay
21:29:41 <alise> or discontent: "Oh, fuck! We left the back door unlocked."
21:30:14 <Gregor-W> alise: That last one isn't discontent, it's still the previous meanings.
21:30:38 <pikhq> It's just the imperative.
21:30:51 <pikhq> "Oh, have intercourse! We left the back door unlocked!"
21:30:54 <fizzie> "a specified orifice or cleft"; heh.
21:31:03 <alise> Or an unspecified one!
21:31:13 <alise> orifice, n. a mouth or aperture, as of a tube, pipe, etc.; an opening; as, the orifice of an artery or vein; the orifice of a wound.
21:31:17 <alise> cleft, n. an opening, fissure, or V-shaped indentation made by or as if by splitting; v. past tense of cleave.
21:31:24 <alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse.
21:31:28 <alise> Involving open wounds.
21:31:28 <coppro> I'm going to take a shower
21:31:35 <alise> coppro: To clean yourself of all this dirty talk?
21:31:46 <coppro> yes.... let's go with that
21:31:57 <Gregor-W> `addquote <alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to take a shower
21:32:08 <HackEgo> 201|<alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to take a shower
21:32:24 <alise> muggle, n. (in singular or plural dated) A marijuana cigarette; a joint; (slang) hot chocolate; v. (in geocaching) To remove, deface or destroy a geocache; (obsolete) To be restless.
21:33:12 <alise> pikhq: Minion Pro is too nice. Halp.
21:33:23 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
21:33:30 <Gregor-W> I'll ... specify your ... orifice ... or cleft ...
21:33:42 <fizzie> OED "muggle, n." variant 1: "Obs. rare. A tail resembling that of a fish."
21:33:53 <pikhq> alise: Solution: read the pdfTeX microtypography thesis, and then you will never be able to accept the typesetting in any other book.
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21:34:52 <alise> pikhq: How... how does that help?
21:35:09 <alise> pikhq: Did you know, the LaTeX minion includes the files that microtype needs. Oh yes.
21:35:16 <pikhq> alise: You won't be able to focus on the niceness of Minion Pro.
21:35:24 <fizzie> Also March 2010, draft entry: "In the fiction of J. K. Rowling: a person who possesses no magical powers. Hence in allusive and extended uses: a person who lacks a particular skill or skills, or who is regarded as inferior in some way." I guess they resent Wikipedia getting all the cool popular-culture references.
21:35:33 <pikhq> Instead, you'll focus on the pain of all other typesetting systems.
21:35:40 <fizzie> Soon there'll be dozen-page articles on Wookiee mating.
21:35:55 <pikhq> fizzie: The OED has actually been quite open to adding words.
21:35:56 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: I don't know if Wikipedia has one.)
21:36:39 <pikhq> It generally takes a decent chunk of time to add, but it's not like they're *opposed* at all. They just want to be sure that it's going to be used outside of the work of fiction...
21:37:03 <pikhq> I wouldn't be too surprised if they had a mention of Dune under "spice".
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21:37:27 <pikhq> (the Spice must flow)
21:38:28 <alise> they generally don't cite such works
21:38:31 <alise> but they do include words from them
21:38:36 <AnMaster> I think I have priting in opengenera working
21:38:57 <AnMaster> however, I need to pass the option to disable cover page to make it work
21:39:10 <AnMaster> it fails with the default setting to create a cover page
21:39:12 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: So is their C-to-LISP compiler actually available? Does it work with semi-real code?
21:39:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:40:10 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, I haven't got it to load. Load System c always auto completes to CL at the end when you press enter. Very strange bug. Especially since there is a file called c.system
21:40:30 <pikhq> alise: They cite first usage of a sense of a word if possible.
21:40:46 <pikhq> Well, first known print usage.
21:41:46 <alise> There is no compatibility level for the new extensions of tracking, additional
21:41:46 <alise> kerning, and interword spacing. Therefore, they can only be switched on or off,
21:41:46 <alise> or they may be activated by passing a set name to the option. By default, neither
21:41:46 <alise> feature is enabled.
21:41:50 <alise> Is there any reason not to turn these on?
21:42:57 <alise> [[En passant, it may be noted that Type 1 format and T1 encoding are in no other way related than that
21:42:58 <alise> both start with a ‘T’ and end with a ‘1’.]]
21:45:59 <alise> \usepackage[tracking,kerning,spacing]{microtype}
21:45:59 <alise> \usepackage[minionint,mathlf]{MinionPro}
21:46:01 <alise> IT IS SO BEAUTIFUL.
21:46:16 <pikhq> alise: Good to know.
21:46:35 <alise> Package microtype Warning: \nonfrenchspacing is active. Adjustment of
21:46:36 <alise> (microtype) interword spacing will disable it. You might want
21:46:36 <alise> (microtype) to add `\microtypecontext{spacing=nonfrench}'
21:46:36 <alise> (microtype) to your preamble.
21:46:54 <pikhq> Also, the reason for having them off by default is to allow you to get the same line numbers from a TeX document while adding microtype.
21:47:26 <pikhq> The idea being that you can get slightly better output without fucking anything up for bizarre purposes.
21:47:33 <pikhq> Sorry, that's more a reason for having them turn-off-able.
21:47:39 <pikhq> Not... Off by default.
21:49:19 * pikhq is not sure about that bit, though, alise.
21:49:49 <alise> I just did what it said and it shut up :P
21:49:55 <pikhq> alise: Okay, I found it.
21:50:32 <pikhq> alise: Non-French spacing keeps the convention that a space following a period is larger than others.
21:50:43 <alise> pikhq: Non-French is just British spacing according to microtype.
21:50:54 <alise> Oh my god. Minion's italic & is amazing.
21:51:09 <alise> It's of the "et" style, where the e is lowercase rather than curly like lowercase Greek epsilon.
21:51:22 <alise> But it isn't all jaggedy like some renderings of that form.
21:51:28 <pikhq> alise: That's the spacing in English in general.
21:51:48 <pikhq> One of those things that we all agree on.
22:02:36 <Flonk> why is there no active desktop in windows 7 >__>
22:04:21 <pikhq> Flonk: Because that is RAPE in UI form.
22:04:46 <Gregor-W> I'm disappointed that I can't make a fully-animated http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif be my background.
22:06:50 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:11:30 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:13:56 <pikhq> GAAAHWHYCANTANYTHINGDOVERTICALTEXTINJAPANESERIGHT
22:14:30 <pikhq> I'm sorry, I'm wrong. There is one thing that can.
22:14:37 <pikhq> Pango does vertical text right.
22:16:53 <pikhq> It doesn't merely support it, it actually does it... Typographically correctly.
22:17:03 <alise> Ooh, I could typeset The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect or Fine Structure.
22:17:07 <alise> Voting now commences; pikhq, Sgeo.
22:17:20 <alise> Mind, I'd have to read either beforehand. :-)
22:17:28 <Sgeo> Voting for what?
22:17:40 <zzo38> So if you type a long vowel mark, will it convert it to vertical long vowel mark if the text is being printed in vertical?
22:18:25 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, it selects the vertical variants of glyphs in fonts.
22:18:34 <alise> Sgeo: Which book to do; or rather, which to do first.
22:18:41 <pikhq> What's better is that it does *hanging punctuation* at the end of lines.
22:18:47 <zzo38> Does it do furigana?
22:19:10 <alise> Actually... a Παν語-based TeX derivative would be amazing.
22:19:16 <pikhq> I don't know if it does furigana.
22:19:19 <pikhq> alise: ... It would.
22:19:25 <alise> pikhq: (Pango is a transliteration of Παν語.)
22:19:46 <pikhq> alise: I can sort-of read Greek and I can read Japanese. ;)
22:19:54 <pikhq> And I'm also aware of Pango besides.
22:20:00 <alise> Right, it just isn't immediately obvious. :P
22:20:12 <pikhq> (read, for Greek, is != understand. :P)
22:20:35 <Sgeo> Fine Structure's rather long
22:20:38 <Sgeo> But would be nice
22:20:44 <Sgeo> Would that be legal, though?
22:21:07 <alise> So, Παν語-TeX would have Unicode support with full localisation, support multi-directional text, and render even Arabic properly.
22:21:18 <alise> It would also have the fine typography support of pdfTeX.
22:21:28 <alise> Sgeo: Legal if I asked Sam.
22:21:42 <alise> Several people took it upon themselves to create unofficial dead-tree versions of the story:
22:21:42 <alise> * Fine Structure (PDF, 1.60MiB) transcribed by AlmightyFjord
22:21:42 <alise> * Fine Structure (PDF, 857kiB) transcribed by Duncan Townsend
22:21:42 <alise> * Fine Structure (EPUB, 313kiB) transcribed by Daniel Vollmer
22:21:59 <alise> No reason I couldn't, then.
22:22:04 <zzo38> What does hanging punctuation means?
22:22:05 <alise> pikhq: Didn't you say Lulu can actually do good-quality hardbacks?
22:22:09 <alise> zzo38: presumably, instead of
22:22:26 <zzo38> alise: O, that's what it means. OK
22:22:30 <alise> that's just my guess, though
22:23:13 <alise> Sgeo: The first bit of Fine Structure I read was the person with ... X-Ray vision or something, who could also stick their hands through stuff and something, talking to this sciencey type about eir abilities.
22:23:19 <alise> Where does that come chronologically, out of interest?
22:23:30 <nooga> i'm looking for flatmates
22:23:42 <pikhq> zzo38: If punctuation would start a line during a paragraph, it is instead placed after the end of the previous line.
22:24:06 <pikhq> To be more specific, the not-bracket punctuation.
22:24:17 <pikhq> So, periods, commas, and the like.
22:24:26 <Sgeo> As far as chronology makes sense, around the beginning
22:24:42 <alise> Sgeo: I take it it is a somewhat abstract story. :-)
22:24:48 <Sgeo> There's one or two stories before that
22:24:58 <Sgeo> And one where "chronologically" doesn't make much sense
22:25:13 <Gregor-W> nooga: Living alone > living with people, always :P
22:25:24 <alise> For all I've heard about it I haven't heard one iota about the actual plot.
22:25:30 <pikhq> Another nice detail it covers is that text that shouldn't be vertical in vertically displayed text instead is rotated.
22:25:30 <alise> Gregor-W: /Unless/ these people are sex robots.
22:25:34 <alise> Literal sex robots.
22:25:52 <pikhq> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/202/498812683_2f01110063_o.png See the last example in this picture.
22:26:30 <pikhq> (the vertically-displayed "2006" is supposed to be that way; those are the full-width variants)
22:26:55 <alise> Review of typesetting mathematics in Minion: Pleasant-looking enough, but it's "too nice" for mathematics, as is common with most serifed fonts; it is too readable and not defined enough, and the pretty letterforms don't help.
22:27:14 <alise> Not to say it's ugly or unreadable: but something like Computer Modern just works better, because of the precise mechanicalness about it.
22:27:54 <alise> pikhq: Say, can you do Japanese in TeX next to some non-japanese?
22:28:59 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
22:29:17 <pikhq> alise: XeTeX or a lot of font hacking needed, but yes.
22:29:30 <alise> pikhq: The latter, please.
22:29:38 <alise> With babel I have Greek text working with the proper forms, not the mathematical ones.
22:29:44 <alise> \usepackage[greek, english]{babel}
22:29:45 <alise> {\greektext Pan}go
22:29:53 <Gregor-W> alise: WHERE'S MY CPP TURING MACHINE DAMN IT? :P
22:30:07 <pikhq> Babel does most of the layout work just fine; the issue is just getting a font installed.
22:30:11 <alise> However, there appears to be no Japanese support for Babel.
22:30:22 <alise> pikhq: I have Minion Pro. That probably does Japanese. I guess. Maybe.
22:30:24 <pikhq> It's "cjk" instead of Japanese.
22:30:55 <pikhq> Chinese, Japanese, and Korean have pretty much identical *typesetting* rules.
22:31:32 <pikhq> Install texlive's langcjk support.
22:31:48 <alise> p latex-cjk-japanese - Japanese module of LaTeX CJK
22:31:56 <alise> So what's that? How do I utilise that specificness?
22:32:09 <pikhq> It should get you babel support for CJK.
22:32:13 <alise> But the Japanese thing?
22:32:15 <pikhq> \usepackage[cjk]{babel}
22:32:16 <alise> There's other packages too.
22:32:21 <alise> So there is a Japanese-specific element.
22:32:32 <pikhq> I'm strongly confused.
22:33:04 <alise> p cjk-latex - installs all LaTeX CJK packages
22:33:04 <alise> p latex-cjk-all - installs all LaTeX CJK packages
22:33:04 <alise> p latex-cjk-chinese - Chinese module of LaTeX CJK
22:33:04 <alise> p latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-bkai00 - traditional Chinese KaiTi fonts for CJK
22:33:04 <alise> p latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-bsmi00 - traditional Chinese KaiTi fonts for CJK
22:33:05 <alise> p latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-gbsn00 - traditional Chinese KaiTi fonts for CJK
22:33:07 <alise> p latex-cjk-chinese-arphic-gkai00 - traditional Chinese KaiTi fonts for CJK
22:33:09 <alise> p latex-cjk-common - LaTeX macro package for CJK (Chinese/Japan
22:33:11 <alise> p latex-cjk-japanese - Japanese module of LaTeX CJK
22:33:13 <alise> p latex-cjk-japanese-wadalab - type1 and tfm DNP Japanese fonts for latex
22:33:15 <alise> p latex-cjk-korean - Korean module of LaTeX CJK
22:33:17 <alise> p latex-cjk-thai - Thai module of LaTeX CJK
22:33:19 <alise> p latex-cjk-xcjk - XeTeX module of LaTeX CJK
22:33:21 <alise> Flood, yes, but I hope that explains.
22:33:23 <alise> CJK is a macro package for LaTeX. This package gives you the possibility to
22:33:25 <alise> include Japanese text in your (La)TeX documents. Install
22:33:27 <alise> latex-cjk-japanese-wadalab for pretty printing.
22:33:31 <alise> Install hbf-kanji48 if you want to use bitmap fonts in your documents.
22:33:35 <alise> Have a look at latex-cjk-common for a more detailed description.
22:33:37 <alise> And [cjk] doesn't work.
22:34:43 <pikhq> And why is Thai part of CJK? It has completely different conventions.
22:34:55 <alise> pikhq: THIS is just why Παν語-TeX must be done :-)
22:35:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:44:20 <cpressey> ok, there's no way i'm going to be able to read all this backwash
22:45:08 <alise> It's mostly typography stuff; but also my dictionary tool.
22:45:14 <alise> OED-style definitions instantly!
22:45:51 <alise> cpressey: define.py -- http://pastie.org/1067745.txt?key=zrx2wuv4p8fndsov9ghbww
22:46:00 <cpressey> alise: for your python parsing problem which you are no longer working on -- or for ANY parsing problem in any language, really -- the trick is to decompose sentences like that into "these are the tokens" and "this is the grammar". Then implement the tokens with regexps in a scanner and implement the grammar with a RDP
22:46:46 <alise> cpressey: Yeah, I know.
22:47:26 <pikhq> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/ Glee.
22:47:31 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:47:35 <cpressey> then it becomes basically trivial in python or anything else with half-decent string manipulation that you're willing to write a few functions in
22:48:01 <alise> pikhq: what's that free font used in the WP logo you mentioned?
22:48:03 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
22:48:25 <pikhq> alise: Linux Libertine O.
22:48:25 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, if only W3C standards actually mattered.
22:48:52 <alise> They are THE most ineffective standards organisation. Even ESO was better. :P
22:48:54 <pikhq> alise: Actually, it's a note published by the authors of the JIS standard on text layout.
22:49:24 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_of_Wikipedia Does. Not. Need. An. Article.
22:49:34 <pikhq> Which is mostly a standardisation of the principals of good CJK typesetting.
22:50:04 <pikhq> It just happened to be submitted to the W3C for their consideration.
22:50:29 <pikhq> It is, in short, "how to typeset Japanese: In English!"
22:51:30 <Gregor-W> English always pwns ur language.
22:52:06 <alise> pikhq: How to typeset Japanese ... in Korean!
22:52:16 <alise> The least-read document on the planet.
22:53:00 <pikhq> alise: Given that the animosity the Koreans have toward Japan rivals Brits' towards France... Yeah. :P
22:53:33 <alise> pikhq: But our rivalry with the French is mostly just joking; there's an awful lot of Korean racism against the Japs.
22:53:44 <alise> And yes, I will continue saying Japs because as a word it amuses me. (Nigger nigger nigger.)
22:54:16 <pikhq> alise: Well. Yeah, that's because it's old history for you...
22:54:27 <pikhq> alise: Imagine if the Norman invasion were about 70 years ago.
22:54:44 <alise> You know, we don't hate the Germans. :P
22:55:08 <pikhq> The Germans didn't assert that your language was a dialect of German and thereby try to exterminate your language.
22:57:17 <alise> oklopol: Nigger-faggot.
22:57:28 <alise> this is truly a high point for this channel
22:57:45 <oklopol> graph rewriting grammars are so cool
22:58:07 <oklopol> maybe i could make a formal computational model out of graphica and get it published
22:58:53 <CakeProphet> so I just got an idea for a language that's not really all that esoteric at all
22:59:11 <alise> we all do that sometimes. unnatural, filthy; bury it.
22:59:15 <alise> oklopol: or out of clue
22:59:44 <CakeProphet> prototype IO. strong, static, inferred, and optional typing.
23:00:05 <oklopol> math people find it interesting usually
23:00:16 <oklopol> CakeProphet: that sounds really nigger to me
23:00:28 <alise> "Plan To Start Little Stationery Store Too Sad For Bank To Deny Loan" --The Onion
23:00:29 <oklopol> does it have a funny syntax?
23:00:31 <CakeProphet> essentially I'm considering the possible of having a dynamically typed language with a static type checker, in essence.
23:00:48 <alise> yeah i think CakeProphet sounds like a faggot nigger
23:00:52 <alise> i mean the cake is like totally flamboyant
23:00:58 <oklopol> maybe you could have "if" be "LOLWHATIF"
23:00:59 <alise> and as we all know jesus was a prophet and black soooo
23:01:03 <alise> basically he's FaggotNigger.
23:01:12 <alise> oklopol: or while be HENCEFORTHWHEREAS
23:01:14 <nooga> i'm looking for a way to make some kind of 'jail', that you can connect to via ssh but you cannot use sockets from inside and you can read/tty/S
23:01:18 <alise> CakeProphet: you can't deny it
23:01:23 <CakeProphet> is this what our beloved channel has come to?
23:02:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:02:05 <CakeProphet> but I have a feeling other people in this channel (ahem, alise) would have better ideas on how to do OO correctly, and so I think discussing it would be worthwhile.
23:02:31 <oklopol> alise: how FaggotNigger is GreaseMonkey tho :DD
23:02:36 <alise> Yeah, but we'd rather say "nigger" a lot.
23:02:40 <CakeProphet> the way I imagine it working is simply through operators. obj1 + obj2
23:02:41 <alise> oklopol: haha wow that works perfectly.
23:02:50 <alise> CakeProphet: if that isn't addition don't say +
23:03:06 <CakeProphet> alise: it's not, and yes...the syntax is just for brainstorming
23:03:14 <alise> therefore don't say +
23:03:22 <alise> say @ or : or something :P
23:03:39 <oklopol> alise doesn't like needless overloading
23:03:46 <CakeProphet> alise: I don't think it matters for conversation. I assure you I will not make another Python.
23:03:53 <Gregor-W> ...................................
23:04:09 <cpressey> what a gawdaefully written proof. (that RH thing)
23:04:34 <CakeProphet> alise: I don't know if you knew. But + means everything in Python
23:04:41 <alise> it is pretty awful
23:04:48 <alise> his "laws of form" are even worse though cpressey
23:04:54 <alise> cpressey: http://lawsofform.org/ideas.html
23:05:08 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Form does some sort of attempt at decoding it and giving it mathematical coherence
23:05:11 <cpressey> the "laws of form" i don't mind so much if they're not passed off as something they're not, but i guess they are
23:05:19 <alise> oh i forgot i found laws of form from your site
23:05:43 <alise> in the esoteric section
23:05:46 <alise> cpressey: he also claims to have proved
23:05:49 <alise> - four colour theorem
23:05:51 <alise> - goldbach conjecture
23:05:51 <CakeProphet> so... what other composition operators are there? and what about implementation? Can you efficiently do logical combinations of dynamic objects without using massive amounts of hash tables?
23:05:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:06:06 <alise> he also claimed that the Appel, Haken & Koch proof of the four-colour theorem was incorrect.
23:06:15 <alise> pretty sure he's just a crank who reinvented boolean logic with circles
23:06:21 <cpressey> i need to put trivialism and that ultrafinitist mathematician in there too now i guess :)
23:06:48 <alise> The ultrafinitist is Doron Zeilberger.
23:06:54 <alise> Trivialism is a joke, I'm /pretty/ sure.
23:07:11 <CakeProphet> ultratrivialism must be distinguished trivially from trivialism
23:07:18 <oklopol> boolean logic with circles?
23:07:28 <alise> cpressey: Some extra kookiness: paraconsistent logics (trivialism is a parody of these).
23:07:31 <cpressey> What, and Zeilberger *isn't* a joke? Oh my.
23:07:46 <alise> Graham Priest is especially a devotee.
23:07:49 <alise> cpressey: He sort of jokes about everything.
23:08:04 <alise> He's not actually stupid -- he's done some valuable work like Zeilberger's algorithm --
23:08:08 <alise> but he's definitely kooky.
23:08:16 <alise> He's a fun read. Just not one to take seriously.
23:08:33 <oklopol> what does zeilberger's okay i'll google
23:08:36 <CakeProphet> so I guess +/alise-(@,:) could be a non-commutative operation.
23:08:39 <alise> "In my eyes Connect-Four is much deeper than, say, K-theory. Of course, K-theory is deeper than the Win-In-One-Move problems, and perhaps even than the Win-In-Three-Moves problems, but definitely not deeper than the Win-In-Five-Moves problems in this book." -- Zeilberger
23:08:44 <alise> oklopol: the ultrafinitist
23:08:57 <CakeProphet> where you specify that one object is the delegate of the new object.
23:09:22 <oklopol> alise: i know, i was gonna ask what his algorithm ...
23:10:00 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:10:00 <alise> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ZeilbergersAlgorithm.html
23:11:03 <CakeProphet> and then : could be direct, commutative combination
23:11:35 <alise> http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/mamarim/mamarimPDF/real.pdf
23:11:40 <cpressey> CakeProphet: What are you talking about?
23:11:41 <alise> is Zeilberger's most famous ultrafinitist thing
23:11:44 <alise> and the most kooky
23:12:02 <CakeProphet> cpressey: prototype object-oriented language. operators that combine objects together logically.
23:14:07 <CakeProphet> hmmm... I wonder if you could define public/private as a combination.
23:14:09 <alise> It is utter nonsense to say that 2 is irrational, because this presupposes that it exists, as a
23:14:09 <alise> number or distance. The truth is that there is no such number or distance. What does exist is
23:14:09 <alise> the symbol, which is just shorthand for an ideal object x that satisfies x^2 = 2.
23:14:33 <CakeProphet> that is so much bullshit in one sentence. it's unbelievable.
23:14:37 <alise> Pythagorean theorem is not c^2 = a^2 + b^2 , but rather c^2 = a^2 + b^2 + O(h).
23:14:44 <alise> CakeProphet: i know, isn't zeilberger fun?
23:14:50 <alise> in fact he's the most intelligent bullshitter i know of.
23:14:54 <nooga> "IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING REALLY DEEPLY, YOU SHOULD PROGRAM IT."
23:15:23 <CakeProphet> so... is private sort of like a... binding operation?
23:15:35 <alise> pikhq: I need a stylistic opinion!
23:15:43 <CakeProphet> you could take one object of private members, and one object of public members
23:16:15 <alise> pikhq: Should the name of the λ-calculus be written with a mathematical, italic lambda, i.e. $\lambda$-calculus, or the actual textual, roman (regular, not actually roman :P) Greek letter lambda, as in {\greektext l}-calculus?
23:16:19 <alise> I believe the latter; it flows more nicely.
23:17:11 <pikhq> alise: Latter. Definitely latter.
23:17:40 <alise> And dammit I want Παν語-TeX.
23:18:24 <cpressey> CakeProphet: bind an attribute to the set of objects that can see it
23:18:29 <alise> pikhq: "This document was typeset by Παν語-\TeX using \AmS-\LaTeX."
23:18:39 <alise> Anything that can set those bytes correctly receives my undying love.
23:18:55 <alise> Properly as in "with Pango".
23:18:59 <CakeProphet> cpressey: right, so one object represents a private set of attributes, another represents the public set accessing it.
23:19:03 <alise> I can't trust XeTeX; especially its OS X lineage.
23:19:17 <oklopol> http://www.laws-of-form.net/lof/pdf/Denjoy_proof.pdf <<< i can't get this open, someone copy paste it on irc plz
23:19:22 <CakeProphet> there isn't really inheritance, so protected would be delegate based.
23:20:31 <CakeProphet> or perhaps I am trying to make too many things operators? :P
23:20:31 <alise> pikhq: OTOH, modifying TeX like that is hell.
23:20:41 <alise> pikhq: In fact... perhaps a LuaTeX derivative would be the most profitable.
23:20:45 <oklopol> why latter, i mean the name comes from the fact the lambda is actually used in the mathematical notation
23:21:02 <oklopol> or would you use the text lambda for that too?
23:21:11 <alise> oklopol: because the italic, mathematical lambda is more a variable symbol
23:21:14 <nooga> CakeProphet: enable custom operators
23:21:18 <alise> than the actual lambda symbol used, which was an extension of ^
23:21:24 <alise> (because ^ wasn't distinct enough or something)
23:21:34 <alise> plus, it disrupts the flow of text.
23:21:58 <CakeProphet> I was actually going to borrow a lot from Haskell, but in the context of a non-functional paradigm.
23:22:33 <CakeProphet> I was wondering if ternary operators would be reasonable.
23:22:38 <oklopol> also when reading lambda calculus, i'm not sure it's crucial the flow of text doesn't get interrupted, you won't be reading long snippets anyway
23:22:47 <CakeProphet> I think it would. As long as no unary or binary operators conflict in name.
23:22:58 <oklopol> every operator could be ternary
23:23:07 <oklopol> you'd get three times more stuff done
23:23:49 <alise> pikhq: Opinion: (\emph{...}) or \emph{(...)}?
23:23:58 <CakeProphet> so a ternary operator would in effect bind TWO names.
23:24:09 <alise> The latter seems to flow better.
23:24:11 <oklopol> yeah every operator has a comment track, (5 * (3 + 4 ;; the sum of three and four, which is 7) ;; we multiply 5 by 7 to get 35)
23:24:13 <CakeProphet> to prevent headaches with parsing ambiguity.
23:24:39 <alise> pikhq: On the other hand, ``\emph{...}'' is obviously the correct form.
23:24:52 <alise> <oklopol> also when reading lambda calculus, i'm not sure it's crucial the flow of text doesn't get interrupted, you won't be reading long snippets anyway
23:24:52 <cpressey> That Bipolar Lisper article is way worse than that kook RH proof, though.
23:24:55 <alise> reading the /name/ lambda-calculus
23:24:57 <alise> not lambda calculus itself
23:25:15 <oklopol> yeah sorry <--^---^--- idiot
23:25:23 <oklopol> ^ means the arrow jumps over a word
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23:25:42 <CakeProphet> oklopol: I wonder what kind of operator <--^---^--- would be in Haskell?
23:25:53 <cpressey> Yegge is always a hair snotty for my taste though
23:26:33 <oklopol> CakeProphet: i have a hunch
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23:27:29 <CakeProphet> I wish @ and ' were valid operator character in Haskell. Then we could have the @-,-'- operator
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23:28:02 <Gregor-W> CakeProphet: They are in Plof! :P
23:30:02 <cpressey> "Pick Scheme, and you have to pick a Scheme" -- wtf? This is like when Stanislav said Scheme's libraries "weren't standardized"
23:31:28 <CakeProphet> ^.^ -- the strict side-effect operator. happy faces for all.
23:31:33 <alise> pikhq: You'd like Minion's quote marks; they're set so tightly that "Foo," and "Foo", look almost identical.
23:31:43 <alise> <cpressey> Yegge is always a hair snotty for my taste though
23:31:45 <alise> he's getting better
23:32:15 <alise> pikhq: This can be controlled, however.
23:33:31 <alise> When using LaTeX's \maketitle, this produces hideously classy results:
23:33:36 <alise> \title{\textssc{Some Title}}
23:33:40 <alise> \author{\textsc{My Name}}
23:33:48 <alise> (requires Minion Pro for ssc)
23:34:18 <cpressey> I wonder if I'll get time to work on something this weekend, and if so, wtf I should work on
23:34:32 <alise> cpressey: So you have internet on weekends now?
23:34:36 <cpressey> It's partly time, partly brain power
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23:35:27 <cpressey> Don't generally need internet for my projects.
23:35:37 <cpressey> Though having access to Java docs might be nice.
23:35:52 <alise> Why don't you have internet, again?
23:36:02 <cpressey> Because I live in a cardboard box.
23:36:58 <cpressey> Because I am a brilliant failure.
23:37:05 <alise> pikhq: Aww, optical sizings don't work with my Minion package.
23:37:09 <cpressey> Lisp is the flag I wave, you see.
23:37:12 <alise> cpressey: Can you not even receive 3G signal there? :P
23:37:21 <alise> ! Font T1/MinionPro-OsF/m/n/17.28=MinionPro-Subh-osf-t1 at 17.28pt not loadable
23:37:21 <alise> : Metric (TFM) file not found.
23:40:28 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> I wish @ and ' were valid operator character in Haskell. Then we could have the @-,-'- operator <-- um @ isn't? let me check
23:40:51 <oerjan> !haskell let a @+ b = a + b in 2 @+ 2
23:41:39 <oerjan> ' on the other hand is afair a _letter_ character, except at the beginning
23:41:49 <oklopol> i would like to inform you all that i just fixed an error in Gregor's plof implementation using my penis
23:41:57 <cpressey> !haskell let a @-,-'- b = a + b in 2 @-,-'- 2
23:41:58 <oerjan> the , in there won't work, either
23:42:27 <oerjan> cpressey: ' and , are illegal. @--- should work, however
23:42:30 <Gregor-W> He didn't fix it, he just identified it.
23:42:48 <cpressey> !haskell let a @-|-+- b = a + b in 2 @-|-+- 3
23:42:58 <cpressey> Sort of an oddly symmetrical rose, but
23:43:12 <oklopol> Gregor-W: that's the hard part, the rest is just monkey work right
23:43:19 <oerjan> (' at the beginning starts a character constant, ' otherwise is permitted in things like x')
23:43:31 <oklopol> clickety clickety change this code here i'm a monkey i'm a monkey
23:43:43 <cpressey> There might be Unicode widgetyglyphs that could sub for , and '
23:45:13 <cpressey> Probably not going to work on esolang this weekend, not enough brain left. Might finish reading Also Sprach Zarathustra.
23:45:44 <oklopol> cpressey: well that's why i use Gregor-W, i just like the part where i write penis penis in a textbox and identify an error
23:45:57 <oerjan> alise: @ despite appearances is a reserved _word_ (operator-like word), not a reserved character, so it doesn't count as special inside other operators. many other things like -- and \ are similar, afair. but somethings work like actual punctuation, like brackets, semicolons and commas. iirc.
23:48:19 <oerjan> since haskell tries hard not to allow two operators to be consecutive, it's not often noticable whether you think of them as characters or words. i think.
23:48:34 <cpressey> good mush night folks mush mush mush splat
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23:49:01 <oerjan> (that may be one reason _why_ haskell disallows prefix/suffix operators (except -). i don't recall seeing it explicitly, though.
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23:51:39 <alise> Gahwhat?! I broke Minion.
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23:54:07 * oerjan declares today's logs too long to read all through
23:54:32 <oklopol> well all of it was complete bullshit anyway
23:54:48 <oklopol> i don't really remember any of it
23:54:52 <oklopol> i was sooooooooooooooo drunk
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23:58:16 <oerjan> as long as you weren't drank
23:58:55 <oklopol> well... actually i *kind of* was :DDDD