2010-07-01: 00:08:45 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:30:24 Heh... From wisdom of crowds stuff: Task 1k random people to develop new nutrional guidelines and then do study of what those do to health. Wheither one would or would not want to see that depends on relative priorities of caring for others vs. how much one wants to see train wrecks... :-) 00:33:43 Because those recomendations would probably be total garbage (difficult to say better or worse than current official ones)... 00:39:11 What's wrong with current guidelines? 00:40:46 Some would say 'too much carbohydrates', but I won't... 00:43:10 Worst part: They are almost impossible to follow without snacking on garbage... 00:46:15 Also that the recomendations do not seem to be based on reality... 00:47:25 Did you know that US nutrional recomendations are published by USDA (agriculture) and not by HHS (Health)? 00:49:05 (well, latest ones are in co-operation with HHS, but one can still tell where the priorities lie...) 00:49:45 The old recommendations were, what, 11 servings of grains each day? 00:50:19 The really difficult questions: What causes metabolic syndrome? There are some suspect causes, some known not to be cause. But no unified model. 00:50:31 Yup, 6-11 servings. 00:51:19 I cannot fathom eating that much grain. 00:52:22 "Eat 5 times as much grain as meat, poultry, fish, beans, eggs, or nuts!" 00:53:08 Hmm. What was it, 1 slice of bread = serving? "Eat a loaf of bread each day!" 00:53:36 Fun "paradoxes" ("paradox" in food & health really means "we have the wrong model"): Whole milk is less fattening than skim milk. Epidemilogical studies pick association, animal studies pick causation. 00:54:49 Yeah, you need to eat lots of grains, since grains are nutrient-poor (that's for white grains, whole grains can be even worse). 00:55:41 It's also comical that they stuck pretty much everything with protein together... 00:56:05 Because apparently tofu and a steak are nutritionally equivalent. 00:57:43 Fun... Its impossible to satisfy both nutrional guidelines and what I think are healty macronutrient ratios (based on what has been observed in hunter-gatherers). Actually, only fundamental conflict is in saturated fat sector... 00:58:24 Not to say that the average US diet is any saner, but the government recommendations are fucking nuts. 00:58:34 Tofu. Yuck. 00:58:44 (and I didn't refer to its taste). 00:58:49 "Now, eat a loaf of bread, but heaven forbid that you eat more than two pieces of fruit a day." 00:59:19 Tofu is not bad when prepared well. (which it almost never is on this continent) 01:00:27 (flavor-wise, that is. Nutritionally, you're looking at protein and not much else.) 01:00:31 Errr... Weren't fruits the second overhyped food group? Those tend to be quite high in sugar (of the apparently harmful kind)... 01:00:46 They said "2 a day". 01:01:16 Same as meats. And dairy products. 01:01:27 Vegetables were 3-5 a day. 01:01:55 They also said "use sparingly" on... All fats. *All* fats. 01:02:16 Oh, at least new recomendations have all sugar <10E%. Here sugar is <25E% (insane). 01:02:32 What's serving in dairy products? 01:03:16 1 cup of milk. (the measurement "cup") 01:05:12 Ah, I would exceed that by quite a margin... :-) 01:05:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:07:10 Meats are good proein sources... 01:11:43 Where does that fear of cholesterol come from? Not even Keys (who IIRC started the whole 'saturated fat is bad'/'high cholesterol causes heart disease' crock) thought that dietary colesterol is important (unless you happen to be rabbit or hamster)... :-/ 01:18:56 Heh... One (legendary) doctor had 4 patients that wanted to gain weight. So he had them drink 100g of olive oil a day... Didn't work... 01:21:44 One with wrong model of things would call this "paradox"... :-) 01:23:58 http://bash.org/?925050 01:28:33 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:37:08 -!- coppro has joined. 01:39:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:47:10 Ilari, what makes you qualified to talk about nutrition, and others unqualified? Just asking.. 01:49:30 Knuth has proposed a successor to TeX. 01:49:34 The syntax is XML. 01:49:39 reportedly 01:49:52 WHAT THE HELL 01:49:52 Not that I'm qualified... There are others way more qualified than me. But there are also others (includin "experts") that are way less qualified. 01:50:11 XML is NOT a human-usable syntax. 01:50:15 pikhq: Obviously it should be full SML 01:50:20 neither is pure TeX 01:50:27 TeX is more so than XML. 01:50:38 Which is not to say that it's very usable, but... Ugh. 01:55:56 okay, it's pretty obvious by now that was a joke 01:56:28 Yes. 01:56:33 Thank God. 02:08:10 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 02:09:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:09:16 is there some website where you can bet on how far Knuth will get on TAOCP before he croaks? 02:09:38 it's quick on the way to being the greatest unfinished work of computer science 02:10:16 And still the greatest work. 02:11:07 (I mean, yes, it is currently the greatest unfinished work, but you know what I mean) 02:13:18 11:43:05 i wish oerjan was here 02:13:18 11:43:31 are you talking about receiving head 02:13:22 YOU DON'T SAY 02:23:41 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor. 02:26:28 I like wyde 02:27:12 wyde is better than tyght 02:51:41 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:08:30 Does sideways add serve any direct arithmetic use or something? 03:09:21 what's sideways add? 03:10:00 an instruction on some architectures that takes two operands; the result has each bit set iff the first operand had it set and the second did not 03:10:33 so AND NOT, really? 03:10:51 Half AND NOOT 03:10:52 err, sorry 03:10:55 it's not that 03:11:05 -!- cal153 has joined. 03:11:09 it's count the number of bits that meet those conditions 03:11:28 pikhq: er, i feel a draft over my head 03:12:05 in MMIX (the spec for which I'm reading), it could serve to count bits set because there's no direct operation for that (just put it against an all-0 second operatnd) 03:13:07 Uh, isn't that with 0x0 on the second operand the identity function? 03:13:39 like I said; I misspoke earlier 03:13:45 it's a bit-counting instruction 03:13:56 AND NOT against 0 is the identity operation, yes 03:14:03 it's "count the bits in X AND NOT Y" 03:15:21 * oerjan doesn't know why one would want that particular combination often enough not to just construct it from simpler parts 03:16:08 oerjan: Blame Knuth. 03:16:15 oh? 03:16:25 His architecture. 03:16:28 it's not just Knuth; I researched it and it's existed physically before 03:17:07 well, must be useful then :D 03:17:14 Well, he *did* try to make MMIX a CPU ISA that one could actually use. 03:17:35 I imagine he has some use in mind 03:18:19 http://cryptome.org/jya/sadd.htm 03:18:36 yeah, saw that 03:18:42 so it's _very_ old 03:20:28 hm that page so far doesn't really imply that it did any AND NOT stuff before counting 03:25:31 whoa, the matrix operations are cool 03:27:02 that string search use of sideways add looks interesting 03:27:12 (but uses AND, not AND NOT) 03:29:03 Population count unit... Geez... 03:29:51 Very exotic instruction and optimized to ridiculous degree... 03:32:00 Haha: "Seriously, the milk section includes transparent cheese. Is that a new Kraft product?". 03:33:04 WTF? 03:33:40 (referring to proposed 2010 dietary guidelines). 03:39:02 I like how Knuth's fake architecture is designed with several instructions that no one would really want on a computer used only for educational purposes 03:41:14 It's not intended only for educational purposes. 03:41:43 Well, it is, but it's intended to be real-world usable so you actually learn something other than a bizarre educational subset of things. 03:41:59 well, yes 03:42:09 but one instruction is described as "reserved for operating systems only" 03:42:17 Very nice touch. 03:42:38 "details are in MMIXware", which is not part of TAOCP 03:43:31 Fake architecture? 03:45:52 Sgeo_: in that it has no hardware implementations 03:46:30 * Sgeo_ wants to see an arcitecture that can only be simulated 03:46:36 Though it certainly could. 03:46:48 It's actually a quite reasonable RISC architecture. 03:47:06 From Knuth and the guys responsible MIPS and Alpha. 03:47:43 yeah, he basically designed it so that you could put Linux on it 03:47:45 nice: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/diamondsigns/CP6.html 03:48:00 (note: I don't mean that he actually made that a design goal, merely that it is sufficiently comprehensive to allow that) 03:48:45 In other words: he didn't want it to be a toy. 03:49:08 yeah (unlike MIX) 03:49:14 it even has compare-and-swap 03:50:28 Well, Compare-and-swap is absolute basic operation of multi-CPU operation. 03:51:04 IIRC, from that one can construct all manner of atomic operations and all basic multithread synchroninzation primitives. 03:51:37 yes 03:51:42 What kind of odd instructions? 03:52:02 what? 03:52:40 coppro: What instructions no one would really want on real computer? 03:52:40 DIVIDE-AND-CONQUER 03:52:52 KILL-THEN-ASK (for handling zombie processes) 03:53:07 Ilari: uh, the sideways add is a bit weird 03:53:26 SIDE-SPLIT 03:53:43 coppro: Sideways add? You mean population count? 03:54:05 Ilari: it is defined of "the number of bits that are 1 in $Y and 0 in $Z" 03:54:39 Well, that's somewhat odd. 03:55:06 Well, one can use that as population count. Especially if MMIX has RISC-style zero register. 03:56:00 Every operation has a form taking a constant as the third operand $Z, so yes, you can use it against 0 in one instruction 03:56:55 also, internal interrupts involve jumps to low addresses 03:57:07 (internal being within a program; not an OS-level interrupt) 03:57:13 No IDTR? 03:57:18 IDTR? 03:57:41 What kind of interrupts there are within programs? 03:58:33 conditions like integer overflow, divide by zero, or the like. Whether they are interrupts or just set flags is controllable, but if they are set as interrupts they all jump into the first few bytes of memory 03:58:55 also, the TRIP instruction, which causes a manual interrupt, seems weird 03:59:10 for starters, it involves a jump to address 0 03:59:36 (TRAP, which is an external interrupt, is by contrast quite useful and normal) 03:59:42 I would want first page not to be mapped... 03:59:54 Yeah well screw you. 04:00:14 Ilari: it does not have paging AFAICT 04:00:31 coppro: It does, but you're running in userspace so YOU CAN'T TELL. 04:00:41 pikhq: Well, a kernel could implement it on top of the OS 04:00:45 err 04:00:48 on top of the architecture 04:00:52 but there's no architecture support 04:01:30 Someone made an MMIX simulator that ran unhosted code for the sole purpose of running Linux on it. 04:01:35 That sucker's got virtual memory. 04:01:59 hmm... actually, it may 04:02:05 there are some features left undescribed 04:02:08 I don't think so though 04:02:13 there isn't enough room in the instruction table 04:03:24 oh wait, yes it does 04:03:31 stop hiding features in sideways comments, Knuth! 04:03:31 What all is segment descriptor in X86 is pretty crazy. There are ordinary code and data segments, but there's also TSSes, task gates, interrupt gates, exception gates, LDTs, etc... 04:03:55 x86 is insane 04:04:07 there's a reason CISCs are going out of styles 04:04:23 TSSes: Hardware-assisted task swapping... 04:04:32 hahaha 04:04:34 Arguably, CISC is dead outside of 8-bit and 16-bit CPUs. 04:05:06 After all, modern x86 implementations are not CISC. They are RISC chips running a very fast x86 emulator. 04:05:07 the no-op for MMIX is entitled "SWYM", or "sympathize with your machinery" 04:05:20 Yes, LDT is segment descriptor you stick into GDT. And some segment selectors reference entries in LDT. 04:06:06 pikhq: yeah, you know things suck when... 04:07:02 Oh, and of course call gates. 04:08:45 I'd have to look into MMIXware to see if TRIP has a real use 04:17:32 Oh, and x86 has expand-down segments, where segment limit is minimum address and not maximum address. As for why Linux/x86 doesn't set kernel CS to be expand-down: Expand-down code segments are not supported! 04:20:16 Oh, x86's segmentation. 04:20:33 If you were crazy enough, you could use it *and* paging for virtual memory. 04:20:35 * pikhq shudders 04:24:25 System segment types: TSS (16 and 32 bit, available and busy variants of course), Call gates, Interrupt gates and trap gates (all with 16- and 32-bit variants). 05:46:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:46:49 -!- augur has joined. 06:01:24 "If you value your independence and creativity, you should be aware that Apple doesn't. Take your computing elsewhere." -- FSF 06:02:03 maybe if we get the FSF and Apple into a major battle, they'll destroy each other and the world will be a better place 06:02:54 coppro, are you sure that equivalent organizations (or company or so) won't arise after them? ;) 06:03:15 lifthrasiir: there will be a Calm 06:03:25 great. 06:04:23 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 06:07:40 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:07:40 -!- clog has quit (ended). 06:07:43 -!- clog has joined. 06:07:43 -!- clog has joined. 06:19:13 coppro: So, you are proposing the plot of FFX as a solution. 06:19:34 pikhq: yeah 06:19:42 seems good to me! 06:20:49 All fun and games until some punk decides to kill off everything to spare people pain. 06:21:37 uh, I think you're confusing games 06:22:21 Seymour? 06:22:30 Ending the spiral of death? 06:23:05 oh sure. I thought you were talking about Yu Yevon 06:23:25 Nah, Yu Yevon's a different kind of crazy. 06:23:51 All fun and games until some punk decides to turn people in statues to run a massive summoning. 06:23:56 There, happy no? 06:23:58 Now? 06:24:26 and kill off everything 06:24:29 there, now I'm happy 06:25:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:01:02 Happy Canada Day! 07:14:29 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 07:27:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 07:29:10 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:29:36 -!- coppro has joined. 07:45:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:55:19 Knuth announced yet? 07:56:01 The twitterverse seems to say that it was a jokey thing "announcing" TeX's successor with XML syntax. 07:56:22 iTeX 07:57:10 And then something about ringing a bell when you say the name. 07:57:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:57:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:57:56 It ended up in Wikipedia for ~2 hours, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Itex&oldid=371122107 07:58:00 Then again, everything does. 07:58:33 it features 3-d printing and VP8 07:58:47 BORING. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit). 08:02:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:02:39 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split). 08:02:39 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split). 08:02:58 Gah, if I tell mutt to search for a string in message bodies on this 1776-email IMAP inbox, it will fetch all message bodies. Wasn't there some sort of search functionality in IMAP? (Come to think of it, it's probably just that it wouldn't support regexps that way.) 08:04:59 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:04:59 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 08:05:43 (And I didn't even find what I was looking for.) 08:07:09 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:07:11 fizzie, so Knuth's announcement was a joke? 08:07:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:07:32 -!- olsner has joined. 08:07:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:08:22 AnMaster: So it appears. 08:08:25 "Don Knuth" sounds strange. 08:08:51 Phantom_Hoover, ...? 08:08:54 fizzie, ah 08:08:55 he didnt actually make an announcement, did he 08:09:11 augur, yes. 08:09:17 yes what 08:09:43 He made a joke at the end of a conference; it's not so uncommon, though usually the jokes don't come with this much pre-excitement. 08:09:55 what was the joke? 08:10:24 That there'll be a TeX successor called iTeX with XML syntax. It's just a dozen comments backwards on this channel, you know. 08:10:35 haha 08:10:57 oh that knuth 08:11:12 hes a bit weird tho 08:11:32 i mean, hes quite smart and knowledgable, but at the same time he seems to have a weird view of how numbers work mathematicall 08:11:33 y 08:12:07 ? 08:12:12 how? 08:12:20 tho he might be a strict formalist, in that regard 08:13:20 well, in one of his books, he made some comments regarding natural numbers and integers and so on and so forth and i wrote him saying that mathematically speaking, these two things were identical in some relevant fashion 08:13:38 er, well, natural numbers/integers and reals 08:13:46 eh? 08:13:46 basically involving the naturals/integers being a subset of the reals 08:13:51 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why one could possibly want an enum larger than an int 08:13:55 well yes they are 08:14:14 and he replied that you'd have to define an equivalency between them in order to make such and such blah blah blah 08:14:30 Phantom_Hoover: With 16-bit ints, you might only have room for puny 65k named constants. 08:14:31 no binary dollar for you :P 08:14:41 yeah, i was saddened 08:14:57 Heh... There's Damn Vulernable Linux... Linux distro stuffed with outdated software, exploitable software and ill-configured software... The list of default services is probably impressive. 08:15:01 especially that it wasn't a simple enough error 08:15:30 like, if it were an error that could be made by simply forgetting to copy some symbol or other, or whatever, ok sure fine whatever 08:15:40 whoops, typo, so to speak 08:15:52 but this was kind of crucial to the point he was making 08:15:52 fizzie, this was from the x86-64 ABI spec; it uses 32-bit ints. 08:16:11 Why would you want 4 billion named constants? 08:16:32 When you want to name each and every memory location with a descriptive name? 08:17:09 fizzie, 64-bit ABI. 08:17:25 Yes, so you need more than 32 bits for it. 08:18:11 Wouldn't the compiler die of overwork trying to keep track of them? 08:19:03 Well, if you have a limited amount of cases but they're represented by bit-patterns wider than int, maybe? 08:19:36 A 64-bit register with few flags up high, and you want the values in an enum so that you can say "blah | bleh" to get a proper value. 08:19:40 Or something like that. 08:19:59 fungot: blah | bleh 08:20:00 Deewiant: i guess i 08:20:20 After all, it's allowed for the values of enum constants to be non-arbitrary integers. 08:20:27 fungot: You guess you what? 08:20:28 fizzie: something like that, change the environment properties/ colors/ positions once a while back he snagged a bit of plot creativity, they could be 08:20:35 "Aha." 08:22:48 ^style 08:22:48 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 08:23:27 Where do you have wider-than-int enums, though? 08:24:46 fizzie, it was in the x86-64 ABI spec. 08:24:47 C++ and some implementations of C permit enums larger than an int. The underlying 08:24:47 type is bumped to an unsigned int, long int or unsigned long int, in that order. 08:25:58 Ilari: my first actions if I heard someone was running it: ssh root@box 08:27:32 coppro: You mean 'telnet box'? :-> 08:27:56 if that doesn't work, I'd try mysql 08:28:22 Actually, ssh might be better target, but there's no telling what they have used as in.telnetd (probably something really vulernable). 08:30:11 And not only vulernable, but misconfigured to create additional vulernabilities. 08:30:23 Oh, and the SSH probably has SSH1 enabled... 08:31:07 yeah, but if root is passwordless or has a weak password, SSH wins (assuming it allows root logins at all, which is always a bad idea) 08:31:41 Hey, guess twice if it allows direct root logins? :-) 08:32:21 does it? 08:32:44 Well, judging from goals, it very probably does. 08:34:07 I could see an instructor running that and giving bonus marks for every different way someone students came up with to root it. 08:35:19 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:50:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:26:34 -!- MizardX has joined. 09:38:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:43:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:43:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:43:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 09:43:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:45:10 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:14:38 -!- tombom has joined. 10:35:20 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 10:46:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:53:16 -!- pikhq has joined. 11:11:46 AAGH the number 168 is stuck in my head and I don't know why. 11:23:55 -!- hiato has joined. 11:35:56 hm I wonder if linux is smart enough when dealing with reading from software RAID1 that it uses the disk that happens to have the read head closest to what it needs to read? 11:37:22 Where is software RAID1 handled? 11:38:00 kernel 11:41:51 Phantom_Hoover, or did you mean which command line tool you use to set it up? 11:42:07 No, I meant kernel or userspace. 11:42:18 right, kernel then 11:52:10 It sounds somewhat tricky to arrange it completely optimally; preferrably you'd start reading with the drive that has the least seek time to the target region, and then read in parallel from all drives as soon as they have reached the proper place. 11:53:10 I'm not even sure if you can get precise enough geometry information from disk controllers nowadays. And there's sector remapping and all that fluff. 11:55:59 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:04:59 hm true 12:11:05 From the "this howto is deprecated" Linux Software-RAID HOWTO, on the topic of RAID-1: "Read performance is good, especially if you have multiple readers or seek-intensive workloads. The RAID code employs a rather good read-balancing algorithm, that will simply let the disk whose heads are closest to the wanted disk position perform the read operation. Since seek operations are relatively expensive on modern disks (a seek time of 6 ms equals a read of 123 kB at 12:11:05 20 MB/sec), picking the disk that will have the shortest seek time does actually give a noticeable performance improvement." 12:11:22 So at least at some point it has attempted to handle that cleverly. 12:11:37 -!- yiyus has joined. 12:15:27 The same phraseology (with updated numbers: 8 ms, 640 kB at 80 MB/sec) appears in raid.wiki.kernel.org, but on the other hand in the "Performance" page the benchmarks don't show very much read-speed differences between non-raid and RAID-1 access. (The benchmarks look somewhat haphazard, though.) 12:35:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:40:26 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 12:40:34 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:43:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:45:28 oerjan! 12:45:41 so it would appear 12:45:48 but can you _truly_ be sure? 12:46:26 No, but for all I know you could just be an emergent phenomenon of the intenet itself. 12:46:35 That there'll be a TeX successor called iTeX with XML syntax. It's just a dozen comments backwards on this channel, you know. 12:46:40 Which would explain why you are so elusive on Google. 12:47:35 the very name of that + the preannouncements would seem to imply knuth was deliberately making a joke on apple hype 12:48:00 well except apple doesn't make preannouncements, do they 12:48:44 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 12:50:53 -!- hiato has joined. 12:52:09 They just do strictly controlled leaks with both correct and incorrect information, to keep the hype going. 12:52:16 (Disclaimer: guesswork and speculation.) 12:53:25 AAGH the number 168 is stuck in my head and I don't know why. <-- it's your serial number, duh 12:53:46 168? Out of ~7 billion? 12:54:02 I feel honoured. 12:54:16 no, out of 666 12:54:22 I strongly suspect it's an SCP, but I really don't want to find out which. 12:56:42 Few more bits of trivia that Knuth said about iTeX: no escape sequences, menu-driven, speech-recognition something. (From a random tweet.) 12:56:53 Heh, "knuth announcement: 27th most popular search in the past hour." 12:57:18 168 is an SCP, but not one I'd previously read about. 12:57:24 Curiouser and curiouser. 12:57:34 http://www.google.com/trends/hottrends?q=knuth+announcement 13:29:34 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:53:17 I was thinking about XML in TeX, sometime in the past year... I'm pretty certain it could work (use instead of \begin{document}, for example) 13:56:09 -!- hiato_ has joined. 13:57:04 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:58:12 -!- hiato_ has quit (Client Quit). 13:58:20 -!- cpressey has joined. 13:58:32 -!- hiato has joined. 14:00:01 So I want to spider a site, but I also want to spider a version of it from a few years ago from www.archive.org. 14:00:22 I don't suppose a tool exists that does exactly that, so 14:00:43 Any suggestions for a spidering tool that is comfortably hackable? 14:02:14 cpressey: yourself? 14:03:13 :/ 14:05:46 wget -r plus some perl goo, it is, then. 14:07:44 Yes, there is already a XML syntax for TeX (TeXML). It's mostly intended for people who programmatically generate TeX code, though. 14:08:50 I don't have any clue how good/sensible it is. 14:10:09 It seems to do instead of \begin{x} for example, so it's perhaps not that human-friendly to type directly. 14:16:03 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:21:55 -!- cpressey1 has joined. 14:22:33 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:22:47 -!- cpressey1 has changed nick to cpressey. 14:28:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:29:10 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 14:32:59 This Knuth thing is an April Fool's joke, right? Just 3 months late? 14:33:09 We think so. 14:35:07 Or nine months early, maybe. 14:37:27 presumably there's only one yearly tex conference... 14:37:53 top-level one, that is 14:41:13 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:48:12 Hi ais523 14:48:19 hi 14:48:31 hmm, I proved both Reversible Brainfuck and DoFuck TC in my head last night 14:48:38 although, as usual with proofs done mentally, there may be bugs 14:49:12 Indeed -- from the sound of it, Reversible Brainfuck would not be too hard to prove? Or is it weirder than its name suggests? 14:49:24 Not sure what I'm saying 14:49:30 (they're both BF with different definitions of the [ command; DoFuck has it enter the loop unconditionally, Reversible Brainfuck has it enter the loop if the current cell /is/ 0, rather than if it /isn't/ 0) 14:49:33 Given how hard Burro was 14:49:57 I was thinking I might actually implement my idea for Goldbach... was making some notes last night 14:50:03 it's not trivial to prove; the issue is trying to make sure you can enter a loop the good-old-fashioned BF way 14:50:07 It will turn out to be very un-exciting, though 14:50:10 which requires somehow ignoring the value when you enter it 14:50:22 I see. 14:52:21 My Goldbach idea just degrades into "Loop over pairs of primes until you find two that sum to the next larger even number you need", and if you can't do that, you can't perform a top-level loop. So if the Goldbach conjecture is false, there is a limit to the number of useful iterations you can do. 14:52:45 ha! 14:52:59 next larger even number -> first you have to goto -2, then -4, then -6 ... which all basicallly are gotos back to the first instruction of the program 14:53:07 I remember asking bits of the mathematical community about the goldbach conjecture, though; they all believe it's true, just have no proof 14:53:11 Very contrived. :/ 14:53:26 I have a hard time fantasizing about it *not* being true. 14:53:46 Would there be just one "non-Goldbach" even number? 14:53:49 There could be 14:54:00 Nothing would seem to imply there would be more than one, if there were one. 14:54:01 arguably 2, but that doesn't count 14:58:17 Am I supposed to fall in love with Lua? 14:58:47 Sgeo_: it's good for some things, not for others 14:58:55 Heh... catseye.tc's front page looks pretty spectacular in FF when the canvas is only 23-or-so pixels high 14:59:15 * Sgeo_ is thinking of rewriting some of the C# stuff in Lua so it can be easily unloaded, changed, and loaded without restarting the bot 14:59:42 Sgeo_: Never a good idea to fall in love with a language. It can only lead to hurt when the summer's over. 15:00:25 Seriously, Lua's OK. In many respects, for me, it beats both Python and Ruby. 15:01:08 In others, well, nothing's perfect. 15:02:02 In what ways is Lua imperfect? 15:02:40 Er, well. There is no "standard" way to do object-orientation. So, if you mix and match two libraries which use different styles, it can be ugly. 15:03:05 I also something think they went too far, when they merged dictionaries and arrays into one thing. 15:03:15 s/something/sometimes/ 15:04:12 Most of my other gripes are about the implementation and things like availability of libraries, which aren't really core language issues. 15:05:13 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:05:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:05:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:06:21 Where it beats Python: Lua doesn't make a distinction between attributes and dictionary entries. a['foo'] is the same as a.foo. The division in Python is artificial at this point, and in the code base I work on at least, extremely annoying. 15:06:55 cpressey: JavaScript works like that too 15:07:07 come to think of it, JS and Lua are surprisingly similar languages 15:07:26 Yes, JS is actually a lot better than I usually give it credit for. And yes, similar to Lua in many ways. 15:07:53 JS has mostly been held back by being mostly trapped inside a web browser 15:08:35 Web browsers with generally lousy debugging/interaction capabilities, especially. 15:08:59 I think it's not a coincidence that much of the JS I write has the same feel as much of the Assembly I write. 15:09:07 both Firebug and the Epiphany/Safari/Chrome web inspector are pretty good for debugging 15:09:31 Well yes, I didn't mean to imply such tools weren't available. 15:10:19 -!- relet has joined. 15:32:40 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:46:26 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 15:47:41 -!- hiato has joined. 15:50:45 -!- hiato has quit (Client Quit). 15:51:08 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:52:47 -!- hiato has joined. 15:55:29 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 16:05:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:06:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:06:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:25:56 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:26:35 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 16:27:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:30:30 -!- hiato has joined. 16:30:49 -!- hiato has quit (Client Quit). 16:31:15 -!- hiato has joined. 16:31:19 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 16:31:22 -!- hiato has quit (Client Quit). 16:34:06 -!- hiato has joined. 16:38:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:42:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: New kernel; back in a bit.). 16:42:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:43:27 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:45:02 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:59:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 17:04:02 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:11:46 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 17:12:27 -!- hiato has joined. 17:13:37 -!- hiato has quit (Client Quit). 17:14:10 -!- hiato has joined. 17:22:58 -!- KINGZ has joined. 17:39:03 -!- KINGZ has left (?). 17:43:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:01:38 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:08:05 -!- augur has joined. 18:23:40 -!- ipatrol has joined. 18:23:52 -!- ipatrol has left (?). 18:30:24 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:30:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:40:47 -!- Geekthras has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:53:23 -!- Geekthras has joined. 19:05:30 -!- coppro has joined. 19:10:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:10:38 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:17:34 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 19:22:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:23:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:26:22 -!- Geekthras has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:34:25 -!- Geekthras has joined. 19:45:46 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: Reconnecting…). 19:47:41 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:51:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 19:54:09 -!- coppro has joined. 19:57:21 -!- ghostwriter42 has joined. 19:58:16 quick i need a someone to pick a *even* number between 50 and 100 that has two different digits! 20:00:04 68 20:00:29 interesting 20:00:35 thank you 20:00:40 hm? 20:00:41 -!- ghostwriter42 has left (?). 20:00:47 -!- ghostwriter42 has joined. 20:00:59 Is 68 a common response or something? 20:01:29 http://mindcontrol101.blogspot.com/ read the paragraph that says "pick a number" 20:02:17 ... 20:02:27 i guess you win 20:03:04 -!- ghostwriter42 has left (?). 20:07:10 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:07:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:11:21 -!- coppro has joined. 20:15:21 -!- Geekthras has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:16:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:18:02 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:18:05 Hi :-) 20:20:13 Can anyone think of a cool name for a website specialising in programming games? 20:21:13 no, but I am interested 20:21:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:21:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 20:21:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:24:13 It's a shame programming.com, programming.net and programming.co.uk are wasted :-( 20:27:43 proggames? 20:28:55 impomatic: btw, there was a bit of movement on the BF Joust leaderboard recently 20:28:57 so it isn't /quite/ dead 20:29:13 Thanks, I'll take a look :-) 20:32:38 * pikhq can has decent headphones! And stuff for curry, reubens, and such! 20:32:43 Glee! 20:32:53 <3 Glee 20:33:08 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 20:35:34 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Excess Flood). 20:35:52 XD 20:38:34 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 20:52:20 -!- MizardX- has joined. 20:56:43 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:56:45 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 20:56:52 -!- Behold has joined. 20:57:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Disconnected by services). 20:57:14 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 21:00:31 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 21:04:51 -!- Geekthras has joined. 21:21:21 -!- Geekthras has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:36:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.10/20100504093643]). 22:06:55 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:39:57 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 22:40:00 Knuth? 22:40:15 Announced what? 22:40:35 good point, I haven't heard any followup on that 22:40:40 I don't know, is the answer 22:40:47 which surprises me, I thought it would have at least hit Slashdot 22:41:07 T'was yesterday night, late. 22:41:13 pikhq will know. 22:41:32 just checked a search: it seems he was joking 22:41:45 he announced an XML-based TeX, called iTex 22:41:47 ehirdiphone: It was a joke. 22:41:53 ais523: Guess (stolen from Hacker News): a typo was found in a comment in METAFONT 22:42:00 pikhq: Bah! :P 22:42:29 iTeX features Unicode, XML syntax, 3D printing, stereophonic sound, and a menu-driven interface. 22:42:36 only places the actual announcement seems to have hit are Twitter and ycombinator.com 22:42:54 Yeah, Unicode in TeX. Hahaha, what a silly idea. 22:43:40 Remind me to eat after leaving. I'm starving. 22:43:56 Have to scavenge something from my room... 22:45:03 pikhq: Are filesystem drivers servers in HURD? 22:45:41 ehirdiphone: Yes. 22:45:58 pikhq: what isn't? 22:46:25 ehirdiphone: Quite a few hardware drivers. 22:46:42 Mouse? Keyboard? Video card? 22:46:55 Mouse, keyboard, text console. 22:47:04 Generic USB? 22:47:17 I think also the block devices. 22:47:26 No, it doesn't have USB. 22:47:33 pikhq: Ha! I am more modular than HURD. 22:47:39 Because Linux 2.2 didn't, and they use Linux 2.2 drivers. 22:47:49 Plan n for some n is, rather. 22:48:11 Would take approximately 0 work to make them be in userspace. 22:48:16 ps2/noises /dev/ps2/mouse 22:48:21 Re iTex: July Fools! 22:48:22 *moused 22:48:31 As you can make a server for literally ANY FILE. :) 22:48:37 pikhq: OTOH, it'd still be the HURD. 22:48:48 Yes, it would. 22:48:58 Mine wouldn't be. 22:49:13 Is /dev handled in kernel at all? 22:49:17 In HURD. 22:49:55 No, the kernel does not even acknowledge the existence of a filesystem. 22:50:19 It has /, though, yes? Just abstract. 22:50:26 No. 22:50:36 Mach provides message passing. 22:50:42 So a server handles that. 22:50:47 Yes. 22:51:04 pikhq: Expand "kernel" a bit. 22:51:13 if it's unaware of the existence of filesystems, is it technically a kernel? 22:51:20 ehirdiphone: The Mach microkernel that runs in kernelspace. 22:51:25 I'm not asking about just Mach :P 22:51:33 ais523: Yes 22:51:37 pikhq: I meant 22:51:41 For my questions 22:51:48 Interpret it a bit looser 22:51:50 ehirdiphone: Then it's hard to define what the kernel is. Everything else is daemons. 22:51:57 Mm. 22:53:06 pikhq: Plan X will have a concept of / in the kernel, but only because the *whole OS* will be based on per-process namespaces. 22:53:23 the kernel's / is a different / from everyone else's? 22:53:46 ais523: In plan 9, every process has a different / 22:53:53 its local namespace 22:54:01 Whereas in HURD, a "file" is nothing more than a name provided for a port of a server. 22:54:07 there's a global / too, though 22:54:11 so the things can actually communicate 22:54:24 And most of the actual POSIX abstractions are coming out of libhurd. 22:54:28 ais523: E.g. The rio wm works by rebinding the /dev/screen of its children, for instance. 22:54:34 ais523: No. 22:54:56 ais523: Well, process 1's namespace but thats irrelevant. 22:55:17 They communicats by inheriting files served by other processes. 22:55:30 so if you reference, say, /home/alise, how does Plan 9 resolve that? 22:55:42 The kernel's the part that, when it crashes, you're fucked. 22:55:54 ITYM /usr/alise 22:55:59 cpressey: Then that's Mach. 22:56:10 ehirdiphone: right, I forgot how Plan 9 actively hates the FHS 22:56:13 rather than just ignoring it 22:56:18 cpressey: that's a good definition 22:56:19 And *maybe* the authentication daemon. 22:56:31 cpressey, only works if you have an MMU and such 22:56:37 ais523: Your shell's /usr/alise. The same as your login process's, prolly. 22:56:44 But really, that's only if you happen to not be running a subHurd. 22:56:49 cpressey, on classic MacOS, any program could result in that 22:56:50 ais523: Plan 9 very predates the FHS. 22:57:06 (one can run a virtual Hurd system by starting another instance of the daemons.) 22:58:00 ais523: Plan 9 also has absolutely no reason to acknowledge the FHS. It is very much not Unix. 22:58:26 pikhq: Well. It's the official successor to 10th Edition Unix. 22:58:41 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 22:58:51 But apart from that, yeah. 22:59:10 ais523: /usr for users dates back to PDP unix. 22:59:15 ehirdiphone: Yes, and Windows is the official successor to DOS, but that doesn't make it DOS. 22:59:18 ais523: "bin" was a user. 22:59:20 :) 22:59:20 -!- nooga has joined. 22:59:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:59:40 ais523: You should know; you tried them out. 22:59:50 are there some 'reverse parsers' for generating random expressions that match specified syntax? 22:59:54 I didn't notice 22:59:57 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 23:00:06 because i wrote one and i don't know if it's worth releasing 23:00:15 -!- ehirdiphone has changed nick to alisephone. 23:00:21 nooga: release it 23:00:27 sounds v. Interesting 23:00:33 okay 23:00:37 Why are you cool all of a sudden? 23:00:43 one person is enough :D 23:01:00 wat 23:01:01 I wrote one for ICA a whie back because I needed testcases 23:01:02 don't know, maybe it's not me :D 23:01:03 but it didn't work very well 23:01:14 brb 23:01:38 ais523: Read "...because I needed testicles." :| 23:01:56 nah, I have those already 23:02:00 ICA? 23:02:31 pikhq: I plan to not have virtual consoles in kernel. 23:02:55 idealized concurrent algol, it's one of the languages I work with in my day job 23:03:03 They'll be servers that hook into the video and keyboard daemons or something. 23:03:14 alisephone: HURD doesn't either. 23:03:18 ais523: I want your day job. 23:03:23 it's... basically, algol designed to work better for mathematicians 23:03:25 It has the *physical* console in kernel. 23:03:26 pikhq: You said it did. 23:03:36 as in, not to be easier to use, but to be easier to analyze mathematically 23:03:36 Because you kinda need to be in kernel-space to write to the VGA buffer. 23:03:42 ...nobody uses that 23:03:52 it's what computer scientists use if they want a vaguely imperative language to work with 23:03:54 pikhq: Expose as server~ 23:04:08 ... How do you think a non-framebuffer text console works? 23:04:17 pikhq: MAGIC. 23:04:27 But yeah, I know. 23:04:40 Just run all procs in ring 1 >_> 23:04:48 It writes ASCII and color info interspersed to the VGA buffer. Glee. 23:04:51 protectedmemaccessd 23:05:47 pikhq: Ooh, in true Plan tradition I get to improve C. 23:05:55 Tuples! 23:06:17 alisephone: Glee. 23:06:22 hah 23:06:45 alisephone: still hacking Plan9? 23:07:03 (A,B,C) = strict { A [0]; B [1]; C [2]; } 23:07:07 *struct 23:07:17 (x,y,z) = tip 23:07:22 = tup 23:07:34 (int x, double y) = foo(); 23:07:44 Hells yeah. 23:07:52 nooga: Plan X. M 23:08:08 Imagine plan9 turned up to plan11. 23:08:17 *no " M." 23:08:39 would be awesome 23:09:05 Even in the most recent version of Lotus Notes, you will get an error if you are typing in the subject line and click the add attachment button. IBM says this is a feature because you cannot add an attachment to a subject line, I think it is disgusting. 23:09:08 my crappy gsoc proposal for P9 was not accepted so i left the topic for a while 23:09:18 I like the reasoning... 23:09:30 now i'm playing with rails 3 & heroku 23:09:33 In fact, let it deconstruct arbitrary structs 23:09:44 awesome things 23:09:48 ((a,b) = calc()).result < 5 23:09:58 nooga: What a fall, from grace. 23:10:13 *structs. 23:10:16 ais523: :D 23:10:30 hehe 23:10:44 webdev is my current job 23:11:04 and i do a lot of PHP which @#(&(&(@#**(#(*@#*#@*@# SUCKS 23:11:05 pikhq: Oh, and perhaps actual extensible types? 23:11:32 pikhq: Err no longer a no. 23:11:47 i couldn't even find non-irritating MVC stack for PHP so i tried to write my own and failed :D 23:12:15 pikhq: Does Hurd have a concept of users? 23:12:22 At what level, rather? 23:12:39 alisephone: That's done by the authentication daemon. 23:12:46 In Plan 9ish systems, users are... A login process. 23:13:03 That's it. 23:13:15 in other news, this is my first nday playing B Nomic 23:13:26 ais523: Ever? 23:13:34 Teucer challenged my claim to be a newbie, and I was as shocked as he was 23:13:35 yes, ever 23:13:41 strange the way the rules work out, sometimes 23:13:49 You don't seriously buy the Era 4-5 argument? 23:13:50 you really can't take much about B's history for granted 23:14:00 (That they never existed.) 23:14:01 alisephone: eras 4 and 5 never happened, BGora didn't have ndays 23:14:12 and yes, most of B buys that argument 23:14:16 I disagree with the former. 23:14:38 platonically, I mean; sure, people played through and enjoyed them, and we can still talk about events happening in them 23:14:42 but they were ignored by the rules 23:14:48 No. 23:14:53 to be precise, they happened but the Clock was off continuously 23:15:00 thus no ndays elapsed 23:15:04 I distinctly remember the argument sucking. 23:15:37 I think my nomic school is "formalism". :) 23:16:36 Alma mater: RMSN (The Retarded Monkey School of Nomic). 23:16:46 alisephone: the rule allowing the clock to be switched back on was commented out 23:17:01 Ph.D. in naïveté. 23:17:05 and even if the original comment crisis argument sucked slightly, someone made a much better one later on that pointed out it was commented out with both definitions 23:17:15 *naïvety. 23:17:18 shhhhhhhh 23:17:23 Stupid American English. 23:17:32 ais523: Fair enough. 23:18:14 ais523: Pretty sure B has never existed :P 23:18:17 my flatmates are using too much bandwith 23:18:30 nooga: throttle~ 23:18:37 can't 23:18:47 some idiot secured the router 23:18:55 o_O 23:18:58 alisephone: heh, I'm playing B under the name "703B E29B E9CC E4ED A7E2 7F62 1608 627B 1BA5 7726" because the requirement to be uniquely named is back, and I feared "ais523" might not be unique enough 23:18:59 Reset it 23:19:33 a SUSPICIOUSLY large number of 7s 23:19:49 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:20:25 meh, it's a GPG key fingerprint 23:20:30 I'm pretty sure it's unique 23:20:56 there are a suspiciously large number of Es in the first half, too 23:21:37 B? 23:22:02 like /b/? 23:22:37 err, no 23:22:42 there's quite a difference 23:22:58 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 23:23:00 What was PSOX? 23:23:44 Warrigal: an API to allow esoprograms to use operating system services, by Sgeo 23:23:47 PSOX is a system interface utilizing only stdout and stdin, so that it can be used by very restricted (esoteric) programming languages without modification. 23:23:54 but its design made it basically only usable with BF 23:23:56 * Warrigal nods. 23:24:03 Huh, why was that? 23:24:12 because it relied on literal NUL characters a lot 23:24:19 oh, I suppose Befunge can do those too 23:24:24 but many esolangs can't 23:24:27 Huh. 23:25:37 I hope it was a binding to the C standard library. 23:25:58 -!- nooga_ has joined. 23:26:03 bah 23:26:07 restarted the router 23:26:08 Of course. The only magic to it was that the interface between the language and it was very thin, just stdout/stderr. 23:26:22 It itself was just linked however it works on the host. 23:26:59 meanwhile, reddit are debating the "M-x google-maps" command 23:27:07 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:29:12 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:32:53 Hurd looks cool 23:33:16 ais523, it exists in emacs? 23:33:31 AnMaster: not by default, someone implemented it 23:33:51 I /hope/ it'll never get into the standard distribution 23:33:52 ais523, what does it do? use picture-mode to display images? 23:34:03 I think it's more complex than that, I haven't looked into it 23:34:09 ais523, link? 23:34:32 http://julien.danjou.info/blog/2010.html#M%2Dx%20google%2Dmaps 23:37:24 ais523, how does it do it? 23:37:29 showing the image I mean 23:37:38 as I said, I don't know the emails 23:37:41 *don't know the details 23:37:48 but Emacs is certainly capable of showing images 23:56:39 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: ClIRC - IRC client for Nintendo DS). 23:56:42 Warrigal: No. Sgeo invented his own APIs. 23:56:45 They were bad. 23:58:44 Besides the NUL thing, howso? 23:59:04 Knuth "also stated that this successor of TeX will have features like 3-D printing, animation, stereographic sound." 23:59:10 hmm, has hit Slashdot, eventually 2010-07-02: 00:02:55 ais523: Wish you judged my CFJ UNDECIDABLE. :) 00:03:28 alisephone, besides the NUL thing, how were they bad? 00:03:41 alisephone: I don't see any evidence for that 00:03:56 and, you're probably lucky, the alternative would have been that your message ironically made you /deregister/ and get locked out for 30 days 00:06:41 * Sgeo_ wonders if he should make a PSOX2 00:06:50 Knuth "also stated that this successor of TeX will have features like 3-D printing, animation, stereographic sound." ... huh? 00:07:03 And this time, keeping in mind the needs of a variety of languages 00:07:03 Gregor-W: he was trolling, quite successfully 00:07:11 I suppose, if you're Knuth, you can get away with it 00:12:17 ais523: Weak evidence: rules say A becomes B strongly, but it 00:12:25 *it's not A, it's B 00:12:48 It stays B - rules violated, change from A to B didn't happen 00:12:53 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:13:04 It becomes A - not stated anywhere in rules, illogical 00:13:17 has to be one or the other but cannot be either 00:13:21 paradox 00:14:01 An ani 00:14:19 Mation of tex flowing text would be awesome 00:14:36 start at ragged right, hyphenate, justify, etc. 00:20:34 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:23:06 I want to make skins for forum softwares, with these features: * The UNIX timestamp of the last new item in any file linked to, will be included in the query string of the hyperlink that points to that file. * All operation by keyboard. * Minimal (or none) CSS, and no icons (to use low bandwidth). 00:24:02 zzo38: write a BBS so we can telnet the board 00:24:48 i can provide you with brand new, 8088 based, custom built machine with 300 baud modem 00:24:50 That is also a idea. 00:24:56 -!- erin has joined. 00:24:59 screw www 00:25:04 -!- alisephone has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:25:06 I do not need a computer with a 300 baud modem to do so, any computer will do. 00:25:22 but it won't be so cool 00:25:24 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 00:25:29 Another idea is to provide all messages using 9P. 00:25:52 zzo38: <3 you for liking 9P. 00:25:58 what's the point if you can't see when particular character appear on screen 00:26:01 And with that, I'm off. Bye! 00:26:05 bye 00:26:12 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Client Quit). 00:26:16 characters* 00:26:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:28:20 I use multiple protocols in my own services and try to be minimal as much as reasonable possibly to make nearly anything work in many cases. Web browser software is very complicated. I do it make even a simple software can also connect. I have both HTTP and Gopher services, and some files are accessible by both, but some are useful only one way 00:29:04 honestly 00:29:10 who uses gopher these days? 00:29:22 Very few people, but there are some 00:29:40 -!- erin has quit (Client Quit). 00:29:41 (I am not the only one) 00:30:18 Basically, people use Gopher for the same reason that I have a VM that runs System V. 00:30:33 They're protocol archaeologists, I'm an OS archaeologist. 00:30:42 People use gopher protocol because it is simpler, mostly. 00:30:59 I often make files accessible both on gopher and on HTTP as well. 00:31:00 I don't believe that for a nanosecond. 00:31:20 People useD the Gopher protocol because it WAS simpler. 00:31:58 But now, whether it's simpler or not, the effort involved in delving into the past just to serve a protocol no one can use is higher than any relief you may get from having a simple underlying protocol. 00:32:57 I serve multiple protocols on my computer 00:33:18 I have three protocols server by now 00:33:42 I fail to see the relevance of that statement to my previous statement. 00:33:45 Gregor-W: where did you get System V? 00:35:00 nooga_: See PM 00:35:08 When serving stuff by HTTP I use as less kind of complex HTML as possible, make sure JavaScript is not required to use any software (if it is, all JavaScript is optional), and use plain text files often. 00:35:17 But there are things that work well with HTTP/HTML/etc 00:36:24 But I like to design "command-web", meaning you can have a command-web inside of a HTML document or HTTP header, or by linked or by local aliases, and you can access it using the command-web client (even if you have no web-browser program), and make it workable like any other command-line program is, including parameters, redirect input/output, pipe, etc. 00:36:59 That it can be done even if your server serves static pages only, and only over HTTP, it can still be supported by anyone 00:38:15 (I am also currently playing a pinball game, called Jiggle Box. I think it is a very good one. In addition, in the background audio someone says "Why do women always get a place to sleep? Because they are the weaker sex. No, I think women are stronger. Do you know why? Because they get enough sleep, that's why.") 00:43:54 lol 00:44:29 Honestly that quote just makes me wonder where these people live where the women sleep in lavish four-poster beds and the men sleep curled up in the fetal position in the corner of a concrete box. 00:45:58 in soviet russia ... ? 00:45:59 I also played D&D today, in case you were wondering 00:46:15 In Soviet Russia, bed sleep on YOU!! 00:47:12 Are shadow mastifs good to eat? 00:47:26 In Soviet Russia, object verb SUBJECT! 00:48:16 mastifs is a good name for a new fs 00:48:36 Ah, yes. I suppose it can be made so 00:48:42 If somewould is going to do it 00:50:29 hmm 00:50:40 Oops, why did I write "somewould"? Is that a word? 00:51:30 i have so much work to do... i guess i will leave it and relax while implementing 9P in ruby or doing another useless thing 00:52:29 But, are shadow mastifs good to eat? This is what happened in D&D game today 00:55:28 nooga_: SUGGESTION FOR USELESS THING (depending on your C ability): Help extend Microcosm! 00:56:19 what is microcosm? 00:56:25 SUGGESTION: Write a brainfuck interpreter in FurryScript. 00:56:35 MORE SUGGESTION: See how many books you need to reach the ceiling. 00:57:13 nooga_: I'm so glad you asked! 00:57:17 I'll direct you to http://codu.org/projects/microcosm/ to answer that 00:57:58 We're actually talking in #microcosm about what the best quick-summary for what Microcosm is :P ... it's a portable psuedo-OS allowing you to run Microcosm binaries (ELF files for a POSIX-like platform) on "any" OS (or will be, once it's further implemented) 00:58:20 EVEN MORE SUGGESTION: Make a spell in D&D that is so complicated and obscure that nobody can figure out 00:58:42 looks awesome 00:59:08 nooga_: Come in to the Microcosm fold! You know you want to! 00:59:13 (Jiggle Box is one of my favorite pinball games. There is one feature it lacks which most modern pinball games have. Do you know what it is?) 00:59:39 Gregor-W: I think Microcosm might be good idea once it is written some more, possibly 00:59:52 zzo38: Everybody says that :P 01:00:08 Gregor-W: But can it run on different processors as well, or only x86? 01:00:51 -!- cal153 has quit (*.net *.split). 01:00:52 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split). 01:01:27 zzo38: Microcosm is not an architecture simulator, so you can only run Microcosm binaries intended for one architecture on the same architecture. It's only been ported to x86 and x86_64, but there's nothing inherantly unportable about it. 01:02:42 Gregor-W: O, OK. 01:04:04 Perhaps also make up a new kind of virtual machine that can be compiled into native codes and have it that if the ELF binary uses that virtual machine, it will compile to a native code at first, but if it is already x86 it will just run it directly 01:04:30 I have discussed "restricted harvard architecture" before, as a way to ensure best optimization into native codes 01:04:56 We were talking earlier today about the feasibility of targeting LLVM as an "architecture" with ELF binaries. 01:05:19 Or, alternatively, targeting something like MIPS and creating a new user-process emulation for Qemu. 01:06:32 Do you know whether LLVM is restricted harvard? 01:07:13 Not a clue. 01:07:16 -!- ineiros has joined. 01:07:18 Honestly LLVM still confuses me a lot :P 01:07:27 (Only because I haven't looked in to it at all) 01:07:33 I have looked at it a little bit 01:07:37 But not a lot 01:10:01 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:12:17 -!- cal153 has joined. 01:23:20 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 01:35:23 Gregor-W: LLVM is incredibly, incredibly simple. 01:35:41 oh really? 01:35:48 pikhq: Do you know if LLVM is restricted harvard or not? 01:35:54 It's a single-static assignment assembly language that's easy to compile to other assembly languages and easy to optimise. 01:35:57 zzo38: Not even vaguely. 01:36:06 pikhq: OK 01:36:45 pikhq: I only get confused with LLVM when it comes to LLVM being compiled to native code so easily. If LLVM is so low level, then I can barely imagine how or where all the stupid issues of how you pass variables, pack structs and other such lunacy disappear. 01:37:15 Gregor-W: You generate machine-specific LLVM if you care about the details of that. 01:37:34 For instance, if you care about the struct packing for a 386 you pack it as though it were a 386. 01:37:51 It abstracts *just* the harder parts of compiling to native code, basically. 01:38:20 Hm 01:39:05 It's not strictly an assembly language, right? That is, it has a one-to-one conversion to/from "machine code" for an imaginary LLVM machine? 01:39:18 (Bytecode except not byte-code :P ) 01:39:20 There is an LLVM bytecode as well, yes. 01:39:42 Most of the tools deal with LLVM bytecode, not LLVM assembly. 01:39:53 Got it. 01:40:11 But since it *is* an assembly language, LLVM assembly is not *that* much more than an ASCII serialisation of LLVM bytecode. :P 01:40:42 So, the only thing I was confused about is that I didn't realize that you couldn't take .C files, compile them to one canonical chunk of LLVM bytecode, then compile that to a binary on any architecture. 01:41:03 You *can* do that just fine actually. 01:41:09 You just end up breaking ABI. 01:41:14 :) 01:41:19 Well, you would have to make the most pessimistic assumptions about alignment and packing. 01:41:26 And breaking it *hard*... 01:41:31 Yes. 01:41:42 There are systems where you simply cannot load data from an unaligned space, so you'd have to align everything to 8-bytes. 01:42:10 For that matter, how does word size work in LLVM? 01:42:11 You only really get system-arbitrary LLVM bytecodes for languages without a lot of low-level details already. 01:42:20 I have written program, such as CZZT the structures must all be packed otherwise it won't run. It also won't run on big-endian computers. 01:42:30 In which case you can just say "Figure this shit out, LLVM." I *think*. 01:42:30 So, I use SDL macros to test some things 01:42:46 It doesn't matter if the start of the structure is aligned or not, though. But the contents of the structure must be packed 01:42:50 zzo38: I would say you've written a bad program then :P 01:43:09 And they must remain in the order it is in, rather than changing the data around in the different order, it also won't work. 01:43:33 Gregor-W: You might say that. But it is done this way for compatiblity. 01:43:58 There are other things done too. It is designed to be compatible with a old DOS program written in Pascal, of which nobody has source-codes 01:44:07 Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 01:44:42 Even the video memory structures are made to be same as the way that the IBM PC does in text mode 01:44:55 Yeesh 01:45:02 Although this new program is written in SDL, so it should work on any small-endian computer 01:45:05 That can use SDL 01:45:18 Gregor-W: One needs to be aware of system word size. 01:45:34 pikhq: Yet another chink in LLVM's portability armor :P 01:45:46 In addition, this program requires 32-bit pointer sizes 01:45:57 It's not designed to be heavily portable. It's designed to be a nice language runtime backend. 01:46:03 If the target computer is big-endian or it has different pointer sizes, it won't compile. 01:46:08 pikhq: Fair enough. 01:46:30 pikhq: So if I did make a Microcosm-LLVM virtual machine, I'd need to make a Microcosm-LLVM32 and/or a Microcosm-LLVM64 virtual machine. 01:46:45 Something which e.g. Java can circumvent simply because it doesn't have pointers :P 01:47:08 Gregor-W: Actually, I think there's *ways* to make it run something kinda like C in that your program just accepts that different compilations will have different sizeof(void*)'s. 01:47:52 But I've not seen that in action, so I'm not sure. 01:48:04 pikhq: Compiling C to such a system would be lunacy, as sizeof(void*) wouldn't be a compiler-known constant, so even if it worked at the LLVM level it would break everything else. 01:48:05 Then don't use LLVM if you could instead make up a virtual machine that has restricted harvard architecture, it can have a pointer size that can be optimized into the target native code, for RAM pointer, but for ROM pointer there is no relevant pointer size because pointer into ROM is impossible 01:48:20 Gregor-W: True. 01:48:44 * Gregor-W considers. 01:49:05 Of course, so long as Microcosm is a C-based system, we're stuck with having single-word-size binaries. 01:49:15 But I don't see why that should restrict us to single-architecture binaries. 01:49:31 Anyway, long-term goals :P 01:49:50 BTW, fun fact: the LLVM linker lets symbols be unresolved at link time. 01:50:01 (so it can resolve at JIT time or native-code-generation time) 01:50:24 So does ld, if you ask it to. 01:50:41 Awesome. 01:51:17 Oh, right. Glee. 01:51:21 LLVM has a C backend. 01:54:17 * Gregor-W 's brain just exploded. 01:54:30 C->LLVM->C->LLVM->C->... let's measure the eigenratio. 01:56:17 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Drivingdrivingdriving). 02:03:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:03:27 -!- augur has joined. 02:04:02 Two characters in the D&D game eat shadow mastifs, my character and one non-player character 02:05:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:05:54 -!- augur has joined. 02:11:29 -!- cal153 has quit (*.net *.split). 02:11:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:12:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:17:16 -!- zzo38 has changed nick to zzo38__. 02:17:23 -!- zzo38__ has changed nick to zzo38___. 02:17:27 -!- zzo38___ has changed nick to zzo38. 02:23:13 -!- augur has joined. 02:23:13 -!- cal153 has joined. 02:24:11 -!- augur has changed nick to Guest35035. 02:32:07 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:35:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:39:20 Where can I find a list of what template files are needed in phpBB, and what the elements are that are used in each one? 02:44:10 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:54:20 -!- Oranjer has joined. 03:32:57 -!- cal153 has quit. 03:37:22 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:38:46 -!- coppro has joined. 03:40:56 The CRTC has some stupid rules for the radio. One is that you are not allowed to play only part of a Canadian song. In addition there are rules for censorship that no pornography or swearing on radio, etc. I know some people don't like it (that includes myself), but I also like freedom of speech. I can propose a compromise, that such censorship is regulated only on odd numbered radio stations and not on even radio stations? 03:50:27 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:20:33 -!- Guest35035 has changed nick to augur. 04:27:33 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:28:08 -!- coppro has joined. 04:38:39 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:40:00 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:45:13 -!- coppro has joined. 05:07:57 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:08:54 -!- coppro has joined. 05:10:35 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:34:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:44:12 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 05:46:39 -!- Oranjer has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:47:48 -!- Oranjer1 has left (?). 06:27:55 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:32:23 -!- coppro has joined. 06:43:29 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:43:36 That "Entropy" is interesting 06:44:00 hmm? 06:44:15 When values are decay, does that include also the constant numbers in the program? It does include string literals, but does it include number 06:44:38 Also there is no list of commands and list of operators documented 06:44:58 link? 06:45:03 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Entropy 06:50:54 * coppro should actually design/implement a language some day 06:52:00 coppro: Maybe do so some day? 06:52:27 meh, that language is boring 06:52:49 Or design and implement crappy APIs! 06:52:54 * Sgeo_ looks selfward 06:52:59 entertaining but positively useless 06:53:16 coppro: Yes mostly that is it 06:53:35 But there is not enough information about Entropy language, is still true 06:53:42 If you don't like useless, what are you doing here? 06:58:14 The Japanese are freaking crazy. 06:58:18 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Macrocheira_kaempferi.jpg The Japanese spider crab. 06:58:24 The leg span there is 12 feet. 06:58:30 They eat that. 07:00:16 When I ask some people on the other IRC about if shadow mastifs are good to eat, some people answer in different ways, including some people said only fox good to eat in that fantasy world, or don't understand why, or various 07:00:28 pikhq: sounds delicious 07:00:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:01:06 -!- augur has joined. 07:01:28 coppro: Y'know, actually. 07:01:41 Stick some butter on that and it probably *is* freaking delicious. 07:01:43 40 pounds of it. 07:03:24 How often do you write "the"? 07:03:35 And how often do you write "I" and "you"? 07:03:42 Very commonly. 07:04:02 The only time I would write any of them to /you/ is in this sentence. 07:05:45 OK that is a sentence 07:06:40 This is a sentence. 07:15:30 In a Google-provided corpus of 1024908267229 words collected from the interwebs, the word "the" is the most popular word, appearing 19401194714 times (1.89 %). 07:16:40 (I is on 15th place with 2744649681 occurrances, you is 18th with 2404223410. People on the internet care more about themselves than others, it seems.) 07:17:36 what's second? a? 07:18:30 The top ten in order is: the, of, and, to, a, in, for, is, The, on. This seems to be case-sensitive, so I should've added "You" and "you" together, sorry about that. 07:20:03 It doesn't matter if you care about yourself or others, the reason for writing "I" or "you" is different things. Because there is different reasons for doing so. In addition, "I" might be used simply as a letter rather than as a word in some contexts. 07:23:51 Quasi-interestingly, if you take a selection of books from male and female authors, there is a noticeable difference in combined frequency counts of wordsets (she, her, hers, herself) and (he, him, his, himself) depending on the gender of the author. 07:26:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:29:10 -!- augur has joined. 07:31:49 -!- MizardX has joined. 07:35:07 TSUMO!! 07:35:55 RON!! 07:37:00 KAN!! 07:38:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:49:39 -!- pineapple has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:54:49 -!- tombom has joined. 08:55:18 -!- coolguy4 has joined. 09:03:46 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 09:07:09 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:09:30 -!- coolguy4 has left (?). 09:36:56 i've got a new project - running windows 3.0 on this -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19txZDTkbBw 09:37:06 -!- cal153 has joined. 09:37:29 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 09:39:11 pikhq: 12 feet? 09:41:30 It is reported to have a gentle disposition "in spite of its ferocious appearance". 09:41:34 YUCK 10:16:57 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:23:40 -!- hiato has joined. 10:24:55 -!- myndzi has joined. 10:28:24 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:20:35 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:26:44 Heh... Computer makes noise if I use floodping. And if IPSec is used, the noise sounds really awful. 12:27:22 Some computer-internal EMI? 12:37:35 Haha... On blog post Comment #2: "Mmmmm.... braaaaaiiiinnnzzzz....". Comment #3: "Wow, 2 comments plus this one and no denialists yet. are the zombies sleeping?". 13:02:28 -!- nooga has joined. 14:24:45 -!- AnMaster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:29:13 -!- AnMaster has joined. 14:39:57 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 15:04:03 OMFG. 15:04:16 The Pirate Party is now going to take over running the Pirate Bay. 15:04:25 ... *Inside Swedish parliament*. 15:05:34 Because Swedish politicians are almost entirely immune to prosecution from things done as part of their political goals. 15:07:01 -!- Geekthras has joined. 15:08:08 heheee 15:11:09 -!- Geekthras has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:28:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:29:39 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:32:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:32:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 15:32:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:12:00 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:12:56 -!- jcp has joined. 16:24:00 pikhq: Huh? 16:29:53 -!- relet has joined. 16:43:37 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:44:45 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:47:56 -!- jcp has joined. 16:51:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:15:07 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 17:18:07 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:26:54 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:39:35 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:59:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:00:40 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 18:10:54 -!- iamcal has joined. 18:12:53 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:22:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:40:27 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:44:28 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:01:01 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:08:32 -!- Guest18987 has joined. 19:09:26 -!- Guest18987 has quit (Client Quit). 19:15:52 I wrote a program for CYOA type games in TAVSYS 19:15:53 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/tavsys/lib/cyoa.4th 19:16:03 I can add more features if you have idea to add more features 19:18:37 Unfortunately there is not a lot of documentation, it only lists the error codes 19:28:19 -!- coppro has joined. 19:29:47 coppro: Hello, and good day, is it good day for you today? 19:29:55 yes, boot 19:29:57 *bot 19:42:23 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:42:24 -!- benuphoenix has joined. 19:42:56 -!- benuphoenix has left (?). 19:45:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:53:21 Please tell me, a question I did not get answer very satisfactory, is shadow mastifs good to eat? (in D&D) 19:53:38 yes 19:53:45 not very filling though 19:54:15 Why do you think that is the case? 19:54:34 it's shadow 19:55:43 I don't think it is actual shadow, I think it is proper physical object 19:56:07 that's what they want you to think 19:59:42 It is not incorporeal. It is called "shadow" because they can hide in a shadow 20:01:40 Is it good for ettercap and/or otyugh to eat? 20:15:01 -!- relet has joined. 20:18:42 -!- benuphoenix has joined. 20:19:06 -!- benuphoenix has left (?). 20:51:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Is?). 20:53:09 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:01:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:42:42 -!- augur has joined. 22:03:53 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:22:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:31:22 -!- Geekthras has joined. 22:45:02 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:48:23 -!- Geekthras has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:49:50 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:11:23 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:17:00 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:18:02 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_11/mahjongflowchart.png 23:20:04 What's that "fat player's mahjong" about? 23:20:20 Ilari: I don't know. 23:20:44 Maybe it is from some manga I have not seen 23:22:17 I don't know how eating more can possibly give you a better chance for daisangen. 23:26:34 It is waiting activity (since metabolism control is busted and one is almost continuously hungry)? 23:27:48 Ilari: I am not sure 23:27:59 Daisangen is just a certain combination of tiles that you can have 23:28:27 It means three or four of each sangenpai (often called "dragons" in English). 23:28:44 It is a yakuman hand, which means it scores the maximum if you are East. 23:28:48 zzo38: Essentially 'eat' there replacing 'wait'. 23:29:44 Ilari: Ah, OK. You might have to play a lot before getting such tiles as that. 23:32:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:34:05 Its amazing how often people with damaged metabolism controls go hungry (and then eat, usually not-good-for-you stuff). 23:35:05 I can explain most of the stuff in the mahjong flowchart, but I don't know what "squigglies" is 23:39:03 -!- tombom has quit (*.net *.split). 23:39:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (*.net *.split). 23:39:03 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split). 23:40:25 -!- hiato has joined. 23:41:09 -!- jcp has quit (*.net *.split). 23:41:52 -!- Ilari has joined. 23:41:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:41:52 -!- jcp has joined. 23:45:24 -!- Geekthras has joined. 23:45:50 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 23:45:58 Uncertainty Principle's Office: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_10/FatherHeisenberg.PNG 23:48:22 I did packaged the IRCd codes but it isn't very good packaged. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/ircd/ 23:52:20 Not many people understand evolution properly, but how many people are *that* bad http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_10/evolution_should_not.jpg 23:54:02 What does the error message "rDrebTenrsr nc RRdnrTSb SncrrebdRRdncsretrepscdogtia inte F t" supposed to mean?? 23:56:02 Uh... No idea... What language it is supposed to be in anyway? 23:58:11 I don't know. I got this error in QuickBasic once 23:59:27 Something similar, in an unsubscribe form I have seen where it says "Please indicate why you are unsubscribing" but the only choices is "toto" and "titi" 2010-07-03: 00:03:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 00:04:21 -!- relet has left (?). 00:12:12 -!- nooga has joined. 00:12:47 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: FNM Time). 00:16:01 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 00:18:37 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:21:28 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:23:43 -!- Oranjer has joined. 00:24:12 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 00:29:20 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:59:44 -!- Slereah has quit. 01:03:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.6/20100625231939]). 01:22:41 -!- calamari has joined. 01:22:47 hi 01:23:09 hi 01:37:37 -!- calamari has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:50:53 -!- calamari has joined. 02:31:59 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:32:25 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:35:01 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:13:23 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:24:48 -!- Behold has joined. 04:47:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:47:17 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:47:50 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:47:51 -!- dbc has joined. 04:48:16 -!- Behold has joined. 04:48:16 -!- Behold has quit (Changing host). 04:48:16 -!- Behold has joined. 05:00:11 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:12:25 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 05:54:17 -!- coppro has joined. 06:30:04 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:19:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:31:54 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:41:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 07:55:47 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 07:57:24 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:15 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:02:19 -!- Gregor has joined. 08:32:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:54:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:01:54 -!- relet has joined. 09:10:14 Am I the only one here who finds it weird that ":vim" in vim is the command to grep? 09:21:32 Well, it's just an unambiguous abbreviation of "vimgrep", the full command name. 09:21:32 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:22:07 (There is also :grep, which uses an external grep utility.) 09:22:23 fizzie: I know what it is 09:22:25 it's still weird 09:22:40 But it's not as weird as calling the command just "vim". 09:24:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:28:34 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split). 09:28:34 -!- Adrian^L has quit (*.net *.split). 09:28:34 -!- EgoBot has quit (*.net *.split). 09:28:34 -!- Warrigal has quit (*.net *.split). 09:28:34 -!- chickenzilla has quit (*.net *.split). 09:28:37 -!- jix has joined. 09:28:38 -!- Adrian^L has joined. 09:28:39 -!- EgoBot has joined. 09:28:39 -!- chickenzilla has joined. 09:28:52 -!- Warrigal has joined. 09:44:57 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:45:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:46:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:49:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:57:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:00:06 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:34:35 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:45:19 -!- tombom has joined. 11:05:09 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:14:09 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:50:51 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 11:51:19 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:03:29 -!- Notice has joined. 12:13:48 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 12:16:10 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:17:45 -!- Notice has quit (Quit: bye). 13:10:15 -!- cheater99 has joined. 13:11:35 hi2u 13:45:25 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:55:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:10:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:11:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:36:48 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:37:19 GHC without shared libraries produces some quite amazing binary sizes. 16:41:25 strip -s typically halves them 16:44:41 Still gigantic. 16:48:36 -!- yiyus has joined. 16:54:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:01:19 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:01:52 -!- myndzi has joined. 17:17:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:25:37 pikhq: what's the largest you got? 17:26:51 cheater99: MEGS 17:28:11 GHC without shared libraries produces some quite amazing binary sizes. <-- worse than GCC? 17:28:20 pikhq: i expected 100s of megs 17:28:23 err 17:28:25 G++ 17:28:28 not GCC 17:28:31 -_- 17:28:55 AnMaster: Well, the thing is, static linking is the default in GHC. 17:29:15 what's the size of "main = return ()" ? :D 17:30:16 pikhq, ouch 17:30:26 oerjan: 468K. 17:30:33 yeargh 17:30:38 pikhq, before strip or after? 17:30:41 they only recently got dynamic linking working in any implementations at all, iirc 17:30:45 AnMaster: After. 17:30:50 oerjan: 12K with dynamic linking. 17:30:55 pikhq, _ouch_ 17:30:58 Which appears to be the minimum GHC binary size. 17:31:01 pikhq, what was size before strip? 17:31:15 AnMaster: 676K. 17:31:20 heh 17:31:32 The thing is, there's a massive chunk of stuff in there. 17:31:43 pikhq, is all that really needed? 17:31:45 As it's statically linking the entire runtime in there. 17:31:58 The garbage collector probably is. 17:32:21 The thread implementation is probably not. 17:32:24 As it's statically linking the entire runtime in there. <-- doesn't linking against *.a just pull the files you actually need? 17:32:45 Yes, but it pulls in the entire contents of those files. 17:32:50 Run your ./donothing +RTS --help and see what you've got 17:33:08 Massive chunk of stuff. 17:33:09 :) 17:33:10 pikhq, split it in more files then 17:33:39 AnMaster: GHC isn't a magic-worker. 17:33:53 Also, most of it's going to be pulled in anyways. 17:33:55 It could, in theory, notice that your program doesn't use the GC at all 17:34:07 Because you can pass arguments to the RTS... 17:34:14 But since only trivial hello-world or do-nothing level programs do that, there's no point 17:34:39 Letting you configure a lot of stuff with the GC, the threading library, etc. 17:35:10 they're apparently going to turn off +RTS handling by default iirc, it's a security hole 17:35:17 Hmm. 17:35:39 it allows specifying some output files iirc 17:36:13 For GC stat logging. 17:36:46 std::cout << "Hi\n"; is 496K with g++ and a statically linked libstdc++ 17:37:00 GHC isn't that amazing IMO :-P 17:38:06 Yeah, int main(){} statically linked is 580K. 17:38:18 Glibc is designed by retards apparently. 17:38:59 it's designed by a guy who violently spits on anyone suggesting they should try to save memory, iirc 17:39:19 Freaking Ulrich Drepper. 17:39:37 (aka being useful for embedded devices) 17:42:20 Yeah, glibc is pretty feature-complete, but it comes at the expense of being usable on anything with less than, oh, 64M of RAM. 17:55:07 pikhq: How'd you manage that? My int main(){} was 6.3K (smaller than the dynamically linked one) 17:55:20 Deewiant: ... Glibc? 17:55:36 with uclibc it was smaller for me, with glibc it was larger 17:56:14 /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.5.0/../../../../lib/libstdc++.a 17:56:32 I don't have any other libc's here AFAIK :-P 17:56:40 That's not even libc. 17:56:53 int main(){}, build with gcc -static. 17:56:54 Go. 17:57:16 Oh, there's a -static 17:57:43 I googled it and found a reference to a non-working -static-libgcc and a recommendation to hide libstdc++.so 17:57:57 Deewiant, C++ != C 17:57:57 Where "it" is static linking with g++ 17:58:01 I know 17:58:08 I was talking about C++ from the start :-P 17:59:46 I felt the comparison was more meaningful that way since GHC also dynamically links libc 18:00:08 Ah. 18:11:26 ../../../gcc-4.5.0/libgcc/config/libbid/bid_decimal_globals.c:47:18: fatal error: fenv.h: No such file or directory 18:11:33 I hate you so much GCC. 18:16:18 hey we're (the wiki) on the reddit front page 18:16:59 irp again 18:17:14 IRP. 18:18:55 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/clhyt/internet_relay_programming/c0tff21 18:26:30 Deewiant: "Tweeted: About NetHack: perceptive of you to the ground, with a single strong, yet impervious to gravity? he invites the very devil, an off-shoot..." 18:43:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:45:13 -!- alise has joined. 18:45:53 I enter too late! 18:49:18 07:04:03 OMFG. 18:49:18 07:04:16 The Pirate Party is now going to take over running the Pirate Bay. 18:49:18 07:04:25 ... *Inside Swedish parliament*. 18:49:18 07:05:34 Because Swedish politicians are almost entirely immune to prosecution from things done as part of their political goals. 18:49:19 <3 18:52:33 alise: Yo. 18:52:43 yo. 18:59:13 mlterm is an amazing terminal. 19:00:32 IS IT REALLY THOUGH 19:01:22 It handles languages correctly. 19:02:28 yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo 19:02:31 yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo 19:05:53 http://nedroid.com/2010/07/a-holiday-reminder/ 19:06:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:08:09 never swallow rockets, especially when lighted 19:09:18 -!- coppro has joined. 19:10:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:12:13 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:12:41 Gracenotes: <3 nedroid 19:12:59 I AGREE EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE NOT TALKING TO ME ;_; 19:16:45 I CAN TYPE PAUL ERDŐS AGAIN! 19:16:46 how do you know 19:16:47 WOOT 19:18:48 What changed? 19:19:06 12:01:29 http://mindcontrol101.blogspot.com/ read the paragraph that says "pick a number" 19:19:07 o.o 19:19:17 lol @ that blog 19:20:49 12:32:53 <3 Glee 19:20:56 I hope not the awful TV show. 19:21:13 alise: it is not awful. It has music. 19:21:21 ... 19:21:29 I do hope you're joking. 19:21:45 -!- yiyus has joined. 19:21:46 Anyways: I've got a terminal that handles Unicode actually correctly. 19:21:52 Unlike urxvt, which claims to and fails. 19:21:55 HOORAY 19:21:56 an actual terminal? 19:21:58 ☺ 19:22:03 coppro: Terminal emulator 19:22:10 konsole works for me 19:22:16 aka terminator. wait... 19:22:34 How does it handle bidirectional text? 19:22:36 16:44:29 Honestly that quote just makes me wonder where these people live where the women sleep in lavish four-poster beds and the men sleep curled up in the fetal position in the corner of a concrete box. 19:22:40 :D 19:22:44 oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminator_(terminal_emulator) 19:23:01 pikhq: Oh... that I have no clue of 19:23:04 i used terminator for a while 19:23:09 Can you give me a sample so that I can test it? 19:23:38 O KAY 19:24:01 العربية 19:26:10 That should render as the same glyphs as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arabic_albayancalligraphy.svg 19:27:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:28:50 ا ل ع ر ب ي ة 19:29:06 And there's the glyphs by themselves, so you can see if it's doing the complex layout correctly, as well. 19:36:18 pikhq: Terminator also does Unicode spectacularly, BTW. 19:36:42 pikhq: ... As does rio... 19:37:06 alise: Mmm. 19:37:19 Not enough things do. 19:39:21 * pikhq shall check out terminator 19:40:11 SimonRC: was it you who was obsessed with lucid dreaming at some point, or was it pikhq 19:40:16 (or perhaps no one?) 19:41:12 last night i had one where i created a few people and asked them to play me a song, to see how good a song my brain could come up with on the fly 19:41:56 Hmm. So far I see two major failings in Terminator. 19:41:57 i remember it was awesome, but the actual details i remember are really weird and stupid :P 19:42:00 First, it doesn't handle IMEs. 19:42:09 Second, it doesn't handle bidirectional text. 19:42:41 So, screw that. 19:42:51 mlterm seems to be rendering underscores oddly. 19:43:14 Basically, it isn't aware of where they get rendered, so it ends up not actually clearing them from the screen. 19:44:20 Is it too much to ask for a terminal without bugs? 19:45:53 Okay, okay. 19:46:02 Set the line spacing to 1 and it magically works. 19:52:42 pikhq: Third, Terminator is Java. 19:52:54 Set the line spacing to 1 and it magically works. <-- OTOH, you have to deal with line spacing 1. 19:53:08 1 pixel. 19:53:26 Said pixel being where the underscore goes. 19:55:35 So, am I right in thinking that I could get out of an EU country's mandatory military service by not being a proper resident but only a European Citizen? 19:56:17 Yes. 19:56:32 Actually, by not being a *citizen of the EU country in question*. 19:56:33 Don't all military services require citizenship of the country anyway 19:56:39 Deewiant: No. 19:56:55 the French have some foreign legion or such iirc? 19:56:57 forgot the name for it 19:56:59 The US and French militaries, for instance, quite approve of foreign volunteers. 19:57:13 The French Foreign Legion comes with automatic French citizenship. 19:57:21 pikhq, huh 19:57:27 Hmm, I thought the US required it 19:57:32 pikhq, so you drop your old citizenship? 19:57:35 Should've remembered the French though 19:57:38 Deewiant: Fast track to citizenship. 19:57:45 Well yeah 19:57:46 AnMaster: No, they allow dual citizenship. 19:57:50 But that still counts as requiring it :-P 19:57:50 Yes. 19:57:50 Actually, by not being a *citizen of the EU country in question*. 19:57:51 Riht. 19:57:53 *Right. 19:57:56 Then Finland is on the cards again. 19:57:58 Deewiant: No, they don't require it. 19:58:04 (I refuse to be drafted.) 19:58:07 pikhq, does your host country do that though= 19:58:07 However, by being in the military, citizenship is very easy. 19:58:10 s/=/?/ 19:58:16 alise: You could've just said Finland instead of "an EU country" although I guessed that one anyway ;-P 19:58:18 AnMaster: Most nations allow it. 19:58:24 Deewiant: Did I need to say Finland? :) 19:58:35 pikhq, hm 19:58:55 alise: In Finland, you can also do the civil service even if you do get drafted, if you just don't want to do military stuff 19:59:01 Deewiant: Oh, so that's why you're a hideously intelligent sociopath: they teach you their secrets in the military, then make you blow people up with them. Well, okay, so I invented the sociopath thing myself. 19:59:08 Deewiant: Yeah, but I also don't want to do the civil service :P 19:59:12 alise: Also, fun fact: all nations with mandatory military service in Europe do not have those forced ever be deployed. 19:59:25 It'd be political suicide, obviously. 19:59:38 alise: You can also go to jail to spend the minimum amount of time ;-P 19:59:41 They have, in effect, volunteer armies, yet force people to do random training for a year or two. 19:59:43 pikhq: In Finland you can serve a jail sentence instead. 19:59:45 Kinda retarded. 19:59:55 Which is just totally awesome! 20:00:01 But I think I'll just live with being a second-class citizen. 20:00:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:00:11 Actually, can't European citizens of age even vote in their resident country? 20:00:14 Hi ais523. 20:00:16 alise: Hardly even "second-class". 20:00:19 Yes, you can vote. 20:00:39 hi alise 20:00:47 Pretty much the only thing that makes you second-class is a need to carry around your passport. 20:00:55 pikhq, so if I moved to Denmark I could vote in both Denmark and in Sweden? 20:01:06 AnMaster: Yes. 20:01:09 huh 20:01:23 pikhq, do I get two votes to the EU parliament? ;) 20:01:27 No. 20:01:48 pikhq: Also, Mr. Immigration Expert, how do I renounce my British citizenship? And can I still be a European citizen? 20:02:00 pikhq, what if I moved into a house placed right on top of the German/Danish border? Could I vote in 3 countries then? 20:02:25 AnMaster: That house would be disambiguated :-P 20:02:32 Deewiant, argh 20:02:40 alise: Varies from nation to nation. 20:03:05 AnMaster: What if the two countries had varying age of consent laws, and you fucked someone in the middle of the age bracket half on the border and half not?! 20:03:18 The typical process, though, involves going to the nearest embassy, declaring intent to renounce citizenship, and then relinquishing your passport. 20:03:19 I guess the half the vagina is on might matter. 20:03:29 They will probably also require proof that you have other citizenship. 20:03:32 pikhq: The passport thing might be an issue. 20:03:37 pikhq: So I can't just be an EU citizen? 20:03:48 alise, awesome idea with that "right in the middle" 20:03:49 No, as the EU is not a sovereign nation. 20:04:03 pikhq: Dammit, why not?! 20:04:11 alise, alas I don't know the answer 20:04:14 pikhq: I don't want to be British but I don't want to be Finnish either :P 20:04:19 Because Europeans go "ZOMG NEED NATIONS" 20:04:32 AnMaster: The answer is that the nations would decide who has sovereignity over the house, probably, and the borders would change accordingly. 20:04:42 AnMaster: Alternatively, you wouldn't be granted permission to build the house. This is the most likely scenario. 20:04:45 alise: If you got employed at Vatican City you could become Vatican. 20:04:45 :P 20:04:52 alise, hm 20:04:58 pikhq: I don't need physical molestation to go with the emotional! 20:05:46 AnMaster: If they grant permission to build the house, they will sign a treaty to note who has jurisdiction over the building. 20:06:07 This is how it works with things like CERN, which are on national borders. 20:06:15 I doubt they'll sign a treaty for a *house*, so. 20:06:16 pikhq, heh, aren't there any existing buildings that crosses any borders? 20:06:22 Several. 20:06:29 Governed by treaties. 20:06:31 heh 20:06:46 pikhq, even for small cottages on borders or such? 20:06:57 They draw borders around them. 20:07:04 pikhq, heh 20:07:16 There's also a few border disputes because of things like that. 20:07:22 pikhq, hah 20:07:27 draw a big trans-border house shaped like a penis 20:07:30 get borders changed 20:07:31 profit 20:07:42 hah 20:07:52 National borders are *such* a bizarre thing. 20:08:17 indeed 20:08:47 alise, probably the border will end up with a rectangular hole for it 20:09:17 AnMaster: no, nobody would give up more than is strictly necessary! 20:09:25 also, geometric borders would be weird. 20:09:35 alise: "All categories of British nationality can be renounced by a declaration made to the Home Secretary. A person ceases to be a British national on the date that the declaration of renunciation is registered by the Home Secretary. If a declaration is registered in the expectation of acquiring another citizenship, but one is not acquired within six months of the registration, it does not take effect and the person is considered to have r 20:09:38 alise, like in Africa? 20:09:41 " 20:09:47 pikhq: to have r... 20:09:48 pikhq: to have r" 20:09:56 AnMaster: AFRICA IS WEIRD MAN. 20:09:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.6/20100625231939]). 20:10:06 to have remained a British national." 20:10:10 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Africa_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg Not all /that/ geometric. 20:10:31 pikhq: So I could only renounce my British citizenship by becoming a Finnish citizen, then, and thus suffering the draft. 20:10:32 So, you need to gain other citizenship to lose British citizenship, full-stop. 20:10:36 alise, there are several straight lines though 20:10:41 It's just paranoia tells me to get the fuck away from the British government in any way possible. 20:10:48 CERN has a border going right through their campus; I think the border still goes right through, but they also don't care about it much. Of course they have quite a lot of identity-checking on the campus gates, so... 20:11:05 hah 20:11:13 fizzie: It's also a Schengen border 20:11:38 fizzie: It's a Schengen border, *and* sovereignity is defined. 20:11:50 IIRC, all but one of the buildings is under French jurisdiction. 20:12:13 alise: no, you could also become a stateless person (not recommended) 20:12:25 coppro, what does that mean? 20:12:30 There's also an airport on the US/Canada border... 20:12:31 coppro: Just curious, why would that be unrecommended? :P 20:12:35 Lack of any rights? 20:12:35 This works very oddly. 20:12:39 alise: mostly 20:12:43 pikhq, ? 20:12:44 AnMaster: no nationality 20:12:48 Could I be an EU citizen? I suppose not :-P 20:13:01 alise, try Swedish citizen? 20:13:12 Past the security gates in an international airport is considered to be only under international law. 20:13:13 alise, and this means you are moving abroad? 20:13:15 AnMaster: But I'd rather live in Finland. :P 20:13:25 There's interesting people in Finland. Sweden... 20:13:26 pikhq, heh 20:13:34 As such: one side of the building is under US jusrisdiction, one is under Canada, and the middle is under NONE AT ALL. 20:13:37 pikhq: Is there an international age of consent? 20:13:52 If not: Pedobear tiem 20:13:56 alise: No. 20:14:01 "You wanna go on a plane, little girl?" 20:14:07 "I got a biiiig loooong aeroplane..." 20:14:17 alise: The *plane* is under the jurisdiction of the country it's over. 20:14:31 pikhq: "You know what, little girl? Let's just stay here." 20:14:35 "Jurisdiction" is really not set up for modern transit. 20:14:38 "[evil cackle]" 20:14:44 pikhq: Whoa. 20:14:53 pikhq: I am founding the United State of No Planes Allowed. 20:14:59 pikhq: The way customs zones are handled in Canadian airports is fun 20:15:02 Let's all just claim tiny little islands and make flight patterns a hell of a lot more complicated. 20:15:04 [[While stateless persons were more common before the 20th century, when many states were somewhat fragile entities, on September 20, 1954 the United Nations adopted the Convention Relating to the Status of Stateless Persons: an active policy to prevent people becoming or remaining stateless.]] 20:15:08 coppro: HOW AM BECOME STATELESS 20:15:11 alise: Perfectly possible. 20:15:20 [[Principle 3 of the 1959 Declaration of the Rights of the Child asserts that: 20:15:21 "The child shall be entitled from his birth to a name and a nationality."]] 20:15:32 alise: The UK makes a point of not allowing anyone to become stateless. 20:15:40 So how am become stateless! 20:15:45 pikhq: The way customs zones are handled in Canadian airports is fun <-- oh? 20:15:51 It is literally impossible to lose UK citizenship without having another citizenship. 20:16:04 pikhq: Mind, I don't actually want to. Having UK citizenship is completely harmless, right? 20:16:14 Yes. 20:16:27 ... Hmm. Is the NHS UK or British? 20:16:33 Erm. 20:16:35 English. 20:16:47 AnMaster: We have US preclearance, so in some parts of the airport, you're legally in Canada; other parts you're waiting to immigrate, and other parts you're waiting to emigrate. Because of the changing volumes of traffic, these zones change throughout the day. 20:16:47 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 20:16:47 NHS? 20:16:57 pikhq: English, but I'm sure the other analogues would cooperate. 20:16:58 National Health Service. 20:17:01 AnMaster: National "Health" Service. 20:17:10 coppro, what... that made no sense 20:17:20 AnMaster: The unit happens to be under its jurisdiction; so I would prefer you used the proper name, "National Hell Service". 20:17:30 AnMaster: In most major Canadian airports, you clear US customs before leaving (if you're going to the USA) 20:17:52 coppro, oh. How strange 20:18:10 AnMaster: have you ever been through customs in a busy US airport? If so, you'd understand why. 20:18:15 coppro, so how do those zones change in size? some marker being moved? 20:18:21 AnMaster: security doors and such 20:18:28 coppro, I have never been outside Europe 20:18:33 alise: Dude, you could escape to a different constituent country of the UK if you felt that they wouldn't cooperate. 20:18:40 coppro, in fact, I been to Sweden, Norway and Denmark 20:18:41 that is all 20:18:44 ah 20:18:45 AnMaster: US customs is a pain even if you're a US citizen. 20:18:52 pikhq: I disagree. 20:18:53 pikhq, I see 20:18:59 pikhq: There is generally[2] no discrimination when a patient resident in one country of the United Kingdom requires treatment in another. The consequent financial matters and paperwork of such inter-working are dealt with between the organisations involved and there is generally no personal involvement by the patient comparable to that which might occur when a resident of one European Union member country receives treatment in another. 20:19:04 coppro: I've actually seen that, I've been in a Canadian airport 20:19:10 pikhq: i.e., they have an intense relationship with each other and are completely transparent for the patient. 20:19:18 alise: Okay, so. 20:19:18 :) 20:19:24 i.e., "We have a wonderful Scottish unit for you..." 20:19:25 Other nation then. 20:19:29 the amount of security difference between the US and non-US side was staggering 20:19:29 pikhq: That is the plan. 20:19:38 ais523: Yeah 20:19:41 I'd imagine it's actual hell if you aren't a US citizen... 20:19:46 it's pretty silly actually 20:19:55 ais523: We love our security theater. 20:20:08 "You're going to the US? We must do what the USA overlords say! Everyone strip!" "You're going somewhere else? Oh, carry on then." 20:20:34 I say "theater" because if I wanted to cause major havoc, I'd set off a bomb at the security station... 20:20:39 * alise strips 20:20:48 pikhq: in the UK, they even check for that 20:20:52 Or build one out of 1 oz liquid bottles after security. 20:20:53 pikhq: You are now being monitored by ECHELON. Congratulations! 20:21:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:21:07 alise: Hooray. 20:21:55 IIRC there was someone who cooked a three-course meal on a plane 20:22:01 Guess I'll need to shave off all my hair, go to Japan, and call myself 榛林・神支. 20:22:37 pikhq, why aren't you using ssl for freenode? 20:22:44 same goes for alise 20:22:48 ... Cause. 20:22:52 * [AnMaster] is using a secure connection 20:22:54 AnMaster: Because #esoteric is publicly logged. 20:23:05 And I don't talk about my rape-murders here. 20:23:08 alise, yes true, but what about all other channels 20:23:17 I'm not on a secure connection because I could care less about whether any of my conversation here is public 20:23:28 AnMaster: Of which I am present in none, and I would probably never say anything particularly worth monitoring in a technology-related channel, as the channels on this network are suppsoed to be. 20:23:30 most of my channels aren't even +s 20:23:35 coppro, actually I'm on it for nickserv password not to be stolen 20:23:45 most of the channels I'm on are either logged, or populated enough that it would be trivial to log them secretly without people noticing 20:23:49 ECHELON only looks for terrorism-related keywords, apparently. Admittedly, not the most trustable source -- them -- but still. 20:23:53 They couldn't possibly monitor /everything/. 20:23:59 I use a throwaway password for NickServ 20:24:09 same 20:24:18 ais523: trivial to monitor even on small channels if you use e.g. Tor to serve the logs and keep your computer on 24/7 :P 20:24:28 among other things, it's too easy to type the password in-channel by mistake 20:24:34 I use my one and only password for NickServ but that's a mistake of years ago and fixing it is something for another day. 20:24:36 alise: on very small channels, you know everyone there 20:24:42 ais523: And? 20:24:52 so if someone's logging secretly, you have quite an idea of who it is 20:24:55 Why? 20:25:15 I use a throwaway password for NickServ 20:25:16 well yes 20:25:18 but still 20:25:23 But still nothing. 20:25:25 * AnMaster use random generated strings for everything 20:25:34 Even with a throwaway password, someone might identify as you and then do IRREPARABLE HARM to your Freenode reputation! 20:25:42 AnMaster: I don't think anyone in here could have guessed anything less. 20:25:43 and I'm paranoid 20:25:46 You're not exactly unpredictable. 20:25:47 AnMaster: Really now? 20:25:57 You are though, on the level of the disorder. :) 20:26:13 alise, why should I trust you on that ;) 20:27:23 ais523, oh I'm logging. To an encrypted volume. Private logs. When rotated to cd after 2 years or so: encrypted as well 20:27:38 bbl food 20:27:48 Maybe we should institutionalise AnMaster. 20:27:48 AnMaster: well, I have privlogs somewhere too, although I don't post them without permission of everyone involved 20:29:17 How on earth does one start work on such a project as this... 20:29:17 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:29:44 alise: step 1: surreptitiously exchange your passports 20:30:32 coppro: With ... what? 20:30:32 http://notalwaysright.com/till-password-reset-do-us-part/6004 20:30:41 alise: each other's 20:30:46 Who finds the fact that the password is stored more painful than the customer? 20:30:52 then AnMaster gets institutionalised and you're free 20:31:07 coppro: Ooh, nice idea. Actually, scratch that: crap idea. 20:31:14 :P 20:31:37 Sgeo__: Who said it was stored? 20:31:56 The fact that the password is visible to the worker in the call center? 20:32:02 Ah 20:32:04 *Ah. 20:32:10 Sgeo__: It's not a password, it's a security "password". 20:32:14 It being visible is to be expected. 20:32:26 Oh >.> 20:33:17 Those sorts of passwords are lame and shouldn't exist. 20:33:23 it's not a computer password, it's the sort of password you say to a human 20:33:27 ALthough I don't know what the alternative is 20:33:39 and humans are generally incapable of doing secure hashes in their head, so they generally know the plaintext version 20:33:58 My secret answers are always woiyaq984U095VWOR'V#[;A@waie()!&"(*¬. 20:34:04 My mother had a really strange maiden name. 20:34:08 Exactly that? 20:34:16 Yes. 20:34:36 ais523: The call center person could still have some sort of an app where it types in what the customer said and gets a yes/no indication back. 20:34:44 (Of course spelling issues and so on.) 20:34:45 alise: what about servers that think that ¬ is some sort of SQL injection attack? 20:34:57 hmm, we need fuzzy hashes for passwords 20:34:58 Not " or *? 20:35:00 which are yet somehow still secure 20:35:02 ais523: They're evil people who disrespect my mother. 20:35:07 pet peeve: people who say EST when they mean EDT 20:35:18 Deewiant: I think ' is more common "ooh, a scary character" in SQL than ". 20:35:19 Pet peeve: Pet peeves. 20:35:23 Pet peeve: people who use anything but UTC±n 20:35:35 Deewiant: generally speaking, people who disallow things in passwords because they're scared of injection attacks don't do so in any particularly logical way 20:35:53 Pet peeve: the last word in the pet business; forget cats and dogs, those are so last-millennium. 20:35:57 Pet peeve: People who use anything but UTC :P 20:35:58 people who know what they're doing just use parameterized queries (or stored procedures, which implies parameterized) 20:36:06 Pet peeve: pet rocks. 20:36:15 Pet peeve: peeved pets 20:36:36 Pet peeve: Pet peeves of "peeved pets"; peeved pets with pet peeves. 20:36:42 Pet peeve: people who don't actually sync their clocks. 20:36:43 ais523: Or ¬SQL :P 20:36:49 *¬SQL. 20:37:01 pikhq: I don't know if I sync mine. 20:37:03 Ooh, I'm so naughty. 20:39:21 I sync mine 20:39:29 mostly because it's easier than remembering when DST starts and ends 20:39:47 Windows always used to ask for confirmation when DST started and ended 20:39:48 Your computer can do that automatically regardless. :P 20:39:53 ais523: ah yeah i remember that 20:39:58 There are non-computer clocks 20:39:58 "I changed the clock. Did... did I do well?" 20:40:05 Deewiant: Nonsense. 20:40:16 Clocks regardless 20:40:26 which was especially annoying because I had a computer with a broken RTC (it didn't work while power was off), so you had to set it during boot, and Windows always corrected the correct time to a wrong one after a DST change 20:40:29 so you had to change it back 20:40:47 Deewiant: Yes, and there's a handy-dandy UTC time source for them. 20:40:50 Thanks, NIST! 20:41:08 I don't think my physical clocks are expensive enough to synchronise. 20:42:08 I'm fine with a few minutes' inaccuracy 20:42:47 It's not like I need the precisely correct time for anything 20:43:04 alise: clocks in computers are physical too 20:43:10 a virtual clock wouldn't work if you turned the computer off 20:43:14 Computers are physical 20:43:29 my wristwatch is currently 35.5 seconds behind MDT 20:43:31 * coppro fixes 20:43:31 ais523: Oh, shut up. 20:43:47 My wristwatch is currently nonexistent. 20:43:49 MDT? 20:43:59 I'm, like, an anarchist, going around without all these possessions and reminders of the constant passage of time to weigh me down. 20:44:12 Deewiant: Mountie Djawesome Time. 20:44:21 Doubtful 20:44:22 It's the official timezone of the Federated States of Canadia. 20:44:31 OTOH, it might just be Calgary's time zone. 20:44:37 Mountain Time Zone, apparently. 20:44:41 Close enough. 20:44:54 MDT = Mountain Time Zone. Hmm. 20:44:55 Mountain Daylight Time 20:44:58 alise: My pocketwatch is broken. 20:45:04 *Mountain Daylight Time 20:45:13 So, I have a constant reminder of the constant non-passage of time. 20:45:25 pikhq: Technically I'm lying as if I was going anywhere as an actual thing I'd take my phone. 20:45:33 "It's *still* 11:11! Awesome!" 20:45:41 That iPhone sure has been good to me. 20:46:23 Pet peeve: people who don't actually sync their clocks. <-- agreed 20:47:10 I have replaced AnMaster with a very small program. Have any of you noticed? 20:47:47 Thanks, NIST! <-- NIST? 20:48:07 National Instute of Standards and Technology. 20:48:24 Among other things, they've got an atomic clock hooked to a radio broadcast. 20:48:46 alise, very funny :P 20:49:00 pikhq, oh that is US only 20:49:01 AnMaster: Hey, don't talk back at your creator. 20:49:04 pikhq, or NA at least 20:49:17 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:49:20 alise, you wrote an AI... *kills alise* 20:49:35 AnMaster: Wow, I didn't code in a strong lampshading of North American...ism. Emergent behaviour. 20:49:45 AnMaster: Now, I /did/ code in shitty jokes, so you're not surprising me. 20:50:10 AnMaster: Yeah, a few other countries do something similar. 20:50:26 pikhq, there is one in Germany that is usable here in Sweden 20:50:28 And it's all on longwave, so it's kinda hard to not be able to pick up. 20:50:36 my alarm clock sets from it 20:51:20 Self-syncing clocks are too hi-fi for me 20:51:27 Deewiant: Do you ever just walk into Russia and go "HAHAHAHA RUSSIA"? 20:51:34 If so, why not? Your country borders Russia, you know. 20:51:36 It's a long walk 20:51:37 You should do that. 20:51:40 You should go do that right now. 20:51:43 You could use a car. 20:51:51 Then I wouldn't've walked 20:51:59 You can drive to the border and then walk into Russia. 20:52:04 This is a great idea and you should do it immediately. 20:52:07 It's a long drive, too 20:52:12 It's also completely pointless 20:52:14 You could take a train. 20:52:16 No it isn't. 20:52:24 You'd be in Russia, going "HAHAHAHA RUSSIA". 20:52:27 Therefore you should do it. 20:52:30 why is that good? 20:52:41 Why is goodness good? How can I answer such a tautological question? 20:53:01 bbl going to play game 20:53:41 Honestly. 20:55:07 So, I read Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency this morning. 20:55:28 If you're wondering whether it is good, why? Douglas Adams wrote it; of course it's good, you moron. 20:56:58 read it again 20:57:05 coppro: Why? 20:57:17 it needs to be read twice to be fullly appreciated 20:57:38 Maybe I will; maybe I won't. I have a feeling Dirk would be a whole lot less amusing now that I know exactly how it all happened. 20:57:45 you would be wrong 20:57:46 Also, you have an extra "l" there. 20:57:47 May I steal it? 20:57:50 *fully. Thanks. 20:57:54 I will put it in a museum: "l" 20:58:12 "Reg, while possessed, unwittingly uses his time machine to amuse a young girl at a college dinner with a magic trick- removing a simple salt cellar and apparently concealing it in an old pot the girl had discovered-, inadvertently bringing back a faulty Electric Monk which the ghost had hoped to use itself- Electric Monks are designed to believe things for you so that the owner does not have to believe them themselves, but this Monk has suffered a fault and 20:58:12 is incapable of believing anything for longer than five minutes-, but instead lets it go free" --Wikipedia 20:58:18 TOO MANY DASHES AND COMMAS 20:58:47 The nesting is needed. 20:59:19 They could have at least used parentheses. Or actual dash characters. 20:59:32 So anyway... I want to write a typesetter. Please talk me out of it. 20:59:32 THat Electric Monk thing sounds Pratchett-esque.. or, wait, no, it's what my old religion book claimed about idols 20:59:34 Or maybe both 20:59:37 —– 20:59:39 Yeah well eff you 20:59:50 pikhq: Did you write it? :P 21:00:02 alise: Nope. 21:00:54 I had a nerd orgasm at the Prolog reference. :P 21:01:00 Although, really, the whole book is an extended nerd orgasm. 21:02:30 What book? 21:02:43 Like I said; Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency. 21:03:02 Oh, should buy that at some point 21:03:49 Who wants to bet that Knuth will complete TAOCP before he dies? I, in turn, will counter-bet that he won't. 21:04:13 I think it's rather obvious that he won't 21:04:45 I think he wants to complete it, and perhaps volume 4 is just his most intensive; I imagine he will be a bit quicker once his death looms. 21:04:56 I still bet he won't finish it, but I don't rule out the opposite. 21:05:01 Volume 4 is rather intensive. 21:05:02 Indeed, I hope I'm wrong. 21:05:33 The first three did come out fairly quickly 21:05:33 This would be more like insurance: if it turns out Knuth dies before completing TAOCP, I'll be terribly sad; the money will be my payout. 21:05:51 Though volumes 5 through 7 will be on languages. 21:06:01 So maybe it's possible; I thought they'd taken longer 21:06:22 Betting against your desired outcome, incidentally, is an awesome method of insurance. 21:07:12 It's been 37 years since volume 3 came out. 21:07:18 The Knuth Shuffle should be a dance. 21:07:25 Goodness *gracious* Knuth is taking a long time on 4. 21:07:29 pikhq: Aye, but he's... taking his time with Volume 4. And he sort of took a long break. 21:07:40 5 is "planned for 2015" 21:07:57 Deewiant: So he's probably writing 5 concurrently, then. 21:08:01 # Volume 5 - Syntactic Algorithms, planned (as of August 2006, estimated in 2015). 21:08:02 * Chapter 9 - Lexical scanning 21:08:02 * Chapter 10 - Parsing techniques 21:08:03 Well, that's not much. 21:08:14 Volume 5 - Syntactic Algorithms, planned (as of August 2006, estimated in 2015). 21:08:15 Or not. 21:08:18 alise: Volume 4 is coming out this year. 21:08:18 *estimated in 21:08:22 Or early next year. 21:08:24 Anyway, volume 4 is the only one divided into subvolumes so far. 21:08:36 Volume 5 will be a two-chapter affair, like the first three, and so will be quite easy to write in comparison. 21:08:45 # Volume 6 - Theory of Context-Free Languages, planned. 21:08:50 I doubt you could write a ginormous volume on that. 21:08:54 # Volume 7 - Compiler Techniques, planned. 21:08:57 That'll be a big'un. 21:09:12 Especially given that that's what the book was supposed to be about initially. 21:09:38 He definitely won't write more than ten volumes; I bet he'll probably stop at around number 8. It's a nice round number in octal, and it lets him write a "tie-it-all-together" volume after seven. 21:09:40 *after 7. 21:10:58 Oh, volume 6 and 7 will apparently only be written if Knuth can still say anything relevant about their subjects. 21:11:26 If he can't, he will finish at volume 5, thereby having covered the core of imperative programming. 21:11:33 Knuth has a rather personal definition of "relevant", methinks. 21:11:42 He considers multi-core processors to be irrelevant, after all. 21:11:54 Yes. 21:12:56 oh knuth :( 21:13:10 i think he'll shove off his mortal coil before he gets round to all these 21:13:24 tombom: Nah; he can write a volume quickly, just not volume 4. 21:14:13 Fortunately for us, he is still in good health. 21:14:55 Knuth will come back as the Second Coming of Jesus. Thereupon he will impart unto us the final volumes of The Art of Computer Programming. 21:16:19 don't forget he has to update volumes 1-3 with MMIX 21:16:41 coppro: Does he plan to? 21:17:29 How's MMIX better than MIX 21:18:01 Deewiant: It's less bizarre, IIRC. 21:19:21 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:21:04 The MMIX updating is actually being done by volunteers, and is mostly finished. 21:21:14 Deewiant: MMIX is a sane RISC. 21:21:25 What, then, is MIX? 21:21:25 MIX is a 40-year-old, crazy CISC. 21:21:29 Alright. 21:21:43 It's a base 10 architecture. 21:22:00 The only sane ISC is an OISC! 21:22:12 Also illegible 21:23:20 We need more one-operand OISCs, other than RSSB. 21:23:36 pikhq: Wrong, it's a binary-decimal architecture. 21:23:46 When programmed in binary, each byte has 6 bits (values range from 0 to 63). In decimal, each byte has 2 decimal digits (values range from 0 to 99). Bytes are grouped into words of five bytes plus a sign. Most programs written for MIX will work in either binary or decimal, so long as they do not try to store a value greater than 63 in a single byte. 21:23:46 A word has the range −1,073,741,823 to 1,073,741,823 (inclusive) in binary mode, and −9,999,999,999 to 9,999,999,999 (inclusive) in decimal mode. 21:23:50 The sign-and-magnitude representation of integers in the MIX architecture distinguishes between “−0” and “+0.” 21:24:12 Knuth is bat-shit insane. 21:24:19 alise: do you consider MiniMAX single-operand? 21:24:42 ais523: I'm not sure I even consider MiniMAX a thing. 21:24:51 But, no: "A MiniMAX program consists of a series of 3-word commands". 21:25:00 alise: except that they overlap 21:25:07 I haven't yet figured out if the commands have 0, 1, 2, or 3 operands 21:25:19 Well, I'd rather not think about it. 21:27:46 ais523: Of course, you yourself prompted a similar question later -- or was it earlier? -- with your proof. 21:27:54 What is the definition of an operand, really? 21:28:06 I'm not convinced there is one, in corner cases 21:28:31 even look at Haskell, and you'll be flummoxed as to how many operands many of the functions have 21:28:59 They all have exactly one 21:29:10 ais523: First line -- agreed; second line -- what? 21:29:15 You mean currying? 21:29:18 What Deewiant said. 21:29:33 alise: yes, currying 21:29:50 "exactly one" doesn't really work, because some take zero 21:30:12 If you want to call those functions instead of constants, fair enough 21:30:15 Zero or one 21:31:03 ais523: a function is something of type ((->) a b) for some a and b. 21:31:18 ais523: Integer and other such things do not qualify for the title. 21:31:41 yep, so you're saying that all functions (i.e. things not of base type) take one operand, everything else takes 0? 21:31:53 Yep 21:32:27 ais523: I'm saying that everything else doesn't take things at all, so it's a moot point. 21:38:35 pikhq: Do you have any idea why paracetamol is popular? 21:39:08 alise: The other non-aspirin painkillers only became legal for OTC use recently. 21:39:58 Paracetamol came to be used OTC in the 50s. 21:42:13 pikhq: Something wrong with aspirin? 21:42:44 alise: Rough on the stomach, can cause Reye's syndrome. 21:42:54 Fair enough. 21:42:54 (in children) 21:43:18 It reduces blood clotting 21:43:30 I can't swallow pills and needed a painkiller yesterday so I had ibuprofen capsule dust in water. 21:43:46 If I'd breathed with my nose, my mouth warned me, I would taste the most disgusting taste you can taste. I didn't, though. 21:44:27 Deewiant: Yes, but that's generally not an issue. 21:44:37 It can be, though. 21:44:49 Yes. 21:44:51 Hooray for ibuprofen, then. 21:45:05 And naproxen sodium. 21:45:22 "In the UK, 250 mg tablets of naproxen were approved for OTC sale under the brand name Feminax Ultra in 2008, for the treatment of primary dysmenorrhoea in women aged 15 to 50." 21:45:35 ... Wha? 21:45:51 In the US it's approved for general painkiller use and has been since '94. 21:45:52 pikhq: So, basically, in the UK, no, not hooray for that :P 21:46:07 Very weird. 21:46:48 pikhq: OTOH, we also class melatonin as a prescription-only medicine, and outlaw cannabis. 21:47:11 I don't think you guys care about safety at *all* with your drugs. 21:47:26 Or getting stoned. 21:47:30 Not that the US is all that good about it. 21:50:11 :o 21:53:37 ;p 21:57:35 I like magic-as-a-programming-language a bit more than I should probably like it. 21:58:59 alise: What're you reading now? 21:59:08 Nothing right now. 21:59:14 Mmm. 22:01:09 Inquiry: should I make curry tonight? 22:01:21 Upsides: curry is delicious. Downsides: curry is work. 22:02:51 How tired are you? 22:02:58 Not exceptionally. 22:03:02 Time? 22:03:10 It's currently 16:02. 22:04:38 When do you plan to curry? 22:04:57 pikhq: BTW, the original name for the dish is schönfinkel, not curry. 22:05:01 In an hour or two. 22:05:17 Curry actually originates from Russia, true fact. 22:05:27 pikhq: Are you feeling particularly motivated? 22:05:40 Not *exceptionally*. 22:05:45 However, curry *is* delicious. 22:13:59 pikhq: Just ... your situation is so mediocrely balanced that I cannot give any advice. 22:14:02 Just choose, dammit. 22:14:17 alise: I'm also hungry. 22:14:19 :P 22:14:33 Do you want to make some fucking curry? 22:14:51 * pikhq covers alise in curry powder 22:15:37 That ... has disturbing implications given my current "name-gender" and the cursing in my previous line. 22:15:38 -!- calamari has joined. 22:16:26 Hah. 22:16:57 I'm still covered in curry powder. 22:17:08 Yes. Yes you are. 22:18:35 ... 22:19:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:20:36 [awkward silence] 22:22:57 :P 22:25:10 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:29:12 "University of Reddit"? Get the fuck out of my internet. 22:32:26 In HS, I took a Java course, meaning I don't need to take one now. 22:32:32 However, my teacher was HORRIBLE. 22:32:39 And I've heard good things about this teacher 22:32:44 So I'm considering taking it anyway 22:33:28 Oh crud 22:33:30 Seriously, you're considering taking a Java course. 22:33:32 Why are you so stupid? :| 22:33:35 I think I'm almost done with the BCS stuff 22:33:51 Meaning the rest of my undergraduate career will be boring stuff :/ 22:37:05 The only Information Security course is an online course :/ 22:38:15 "University of Reddit"? Get the fuck out of my internet. <-- what?! where was that mentioned!? 22:38:24 http://universityofreddit.com/v2/ 22:38:33 It's a shitty look-let's-pretend-to-teach-people-with-reddit-pots. 22:38:56 alise, who are behind it? 22:39:01 If you know something, you can teach it! So here's a list of people who promise that they're going to attempt to teach it! Honest! Please ignore the empty threads behind the curtain. 22:39:12 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:39:19 Not sure. 22:39:22 Multiple people, it seems. 22:39:29 I want to make template files for phpBB Can you please tell me if I have done it correctly? http://sprunge.us/WdYI 22:39:37 The #phpbb and #phpbb-coding channels are not help 22:39:44 I want other people's opinion too 22:39:50 -!- nooga has joined. 22:39:53 I suggest not using phpBB. 22:40:19 what other FOSS forum software is there? 22:40:35 of decent quality that is 22:40:37 alise: I am not using phpBB. 22:40:47 AnMaster: Hmm... none. Forums are shit. 22:40:50 I just want to write a template for it anyways, as well as for other systems later 22:40:53 alise, well yes 22:40:57 bbPress would be good, if it wasn't shit. 22:41:06 alise, that is true for almost everything 22:41:09 Vanilla would be good, if its author wasn't a shitbag. 22:41:34 [17373.892849] thinkpad_acpi: EC reports that Thermal Table has changed 22:41:37 WTH is that 22:42:18 At the current time I don't care which forums softwares are good or not (I'm not installing any of them). I just want to make template files 22:42:52 zzo38, how are you going to be able to make template files without testing them... 22:43:19 I don't know, is there some way for a simple program to parse templates with filling in example data? 22:43:34 No PHP codes are included in phpBB templates. 22:43:39 Not for something so complicated as that, most likely. 22:43:41 It uses its own template codes 22:43:52 Uh ... I'd just install phpBB under the hypothetical situation in which I'd write a phpBB template; which I wouldn't. 22:44:03 alise, same 22:44:07 I don't even have a database 22:44:08 alise, but you are talking to zzo 22:44:24 zzo38: Write an SQL server with MySQL compatibility. 22:44:34 AnMaster: He isn't an alien, you know, and he's right in the room. 22:44:47 Is there any remote service that can test phpBB templates? 22:45:00 But I'm not even finished writing it yet 22:45:10 alise, you mean, the least wrong room 22:45:30 alise, you *could* use mysql 22:45:34 I just want you to tell me if it is correct so far? Please look at the files tell me if it is right so far 22:45:35 He's right here, in the room. 22:45:44 zzo38: I know nothing of phpBB, like sane people. 22:45:56 same as alise on that one 22:46:17 But kudos for using a shar :P 22:46:35 yeah 22:48:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:50:34 Oh no, I'm reading the SCP wiki. 22:50:36 Stop me. 22:53:48 brb 22:56:19 alise, try this link http://tinyurl.com/5cd2rl 22:56:30 alise, it will prevent you from reading the SCP wiki for a while 22:56:53 out of the ashes and into the fire 22:57:05 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:03:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:04:24 oh, SCP 23:04:26 that's a fun site 23:06:12 olsner, are you going to click the link I linked? 23:06:26 err, link that I linked? wtf XF 23:06:27 XD* 23:06:33 though correct.. tinyurl 23:07:50 AnMaster: no, I've already went to SCP instead 23:08:24 olsner, it was tvtropes ;P 23:08:35 alise, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/revised-entry 23:08:48 [strong language] 23:13:11 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:14:32 Verified sighting of SCP-173 in ████, Wales, The United Kingdom. Nuclear bombardment authorized and executed. No survivors. 23:14:56 alise, doesn't fit the style 23:15:13 revised-entry is, I am pretty sure, a joke. 23:15:18 And no, that does fit the style. 23:15:27 Well, sorta. 23:17:24 Sgeo__: Novels -- or, more likely, collections of short stories/novellas -- set around the SCP foundation would be awesome. 23:17:29 Like the incident reports, only more novelly. 23:17:41 Unfortunately, you'd need to include all the relevant SCP files before the stories, and that'd probably give stuff away. 23:17:46 alise, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/foundation-tales 23:18:02 Or you could publish every single SCP in a volume you're expected to have, but reading it would be an encyclopedic journey. 23:18:03 !haskell import System.Random; main = print =<< (randomRIO(0,1)) 23:18:31 Sgeo__: They're probably shitty though. 23:18:33 Fanfiction usually is. 23:18:36 oh... lol 23:18:37 wtf am I doing 23:18:39 (0,1) 23:18:49 !haskell import System.Random; main = print =<< (randomRIO (0,1)) 23:18:57 Meanwhile, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-420-j. 23:20:51 And no, that does fit the style. <-- yes but it breaks pretty much everything else 23:21:12 AnMaster: Howso? 23:21:13 Like the incident reports, only more novelly. <-- which ones? 23:21:23 !haskell :t System.Random.randomRIO 23:21:24 System.Random.randomRIO :: (System.Random.Random a) => (a, a) -> IO a 23:21:28 AnMaster: Um... there are a few, like the one where Kondraki tries to kill ... that girl. 23:21:29 !haskell :t (<<=) 23:21:33 !haskell :t (=<<) 23:21:35 (=<<) :: (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 23:21:36 http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/incident-reports-eye-witness-interviews-and-personal-logs 23:21:44 alise, oh wait the dates are blocked out 23:21:52 alise, I guess you could always put it at a later date then 23:22:02 !help 23:22:02 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 23:22:13 AnMaster: true, it breaks real-world chronology 23:22:14 !help languages 23:22:15 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 23:22:20 didn't think of that 23:22:34 AnMaster: alternatively, it was covered up 23:22:41 no survivors = in that area, not in wales entirely 23:22:58 alise, nuclear carpet bombing of north america covered up? 23:23:06 uh yeah. Right 23:23:25 Verified sighting of SCP-173 in ████, Wales, The United Kingdom. Nuclear bombardment authorized and executed. No survivors. 23:23:32 Some place in Wales == North America 23:23:45 !haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1)) >>= print 23:23:46 CakeProphet: are programs still limited to a single line? 23:23:48 alise, I meant: 23:23:50 "Containment Zone X1, formerly North and South America, is to be denied access. Following saturation nuclear bombing on ██/██/████, number of SCP-173 instances has been reduced." 23:23:56 alise, from section above 23:23:57 calamari: don't think so. I've been importing things. 23:23:58 AnMaster: Oh. Fair enough then. 23:24:07 I wish there was some kind of error output 23:24:27 Working at the SCP foundation would be cool if you were high up enough and weren't prone to nightmares. 23:24:36 :P 23:24:45 Myself, even the knowledge that the files were true would give me a mental breakdown. 23:24:56 oh yeah 23:25:16 !haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1) :: IO Int) >>= print 23:25:19 1 23:25:25 ambiguous type from Num apparently. 23:25:36 I guess not all Nums are Randoms, essentially. 23:25:49 CakeProphet: no, it just can't decide which to use 23:26:24 !addinterp decisionengine haskell import System.Random; main = (randomRIO (0,1) :: IO Int) >>= print 23:26:25 Interpreter decisionengine installed. 23:26:33 the real decision engine. 23:27:02 alise: if only it knew that I didn't care which one it used. :P 23:27:32 but I guess this is why explicit type signatures are good. 23:28:08 GHCi often decides for you. 23:28:22 how nice of it. 23:29:15 I once thought that random numbers in Haskell were a pain in the ass 23:29:27 but, it's really the same as any other language. Sort of. 23:29:32 You do have to think slightly more. 23:29:58 Haskell can be a pain in the ass... its type theory is so limited! 23:30:12 I probably need to practice using Control.Monad and related functions. 23:30:27 !sh :(){ :|:& };: 23:30:32 does that work? :) 23:30:39 ...what on earth is that. 23:30:43 calamari: it'll get killed 23:30:45 CakeProphet: a forkbomb 23:30:52 deobfuscating the function name: 23:30:57 bomb() { bomb | bomb & }; bomb 23:31:02 can you see how it works? 23:31:13 ah. 23:31:18 ...er, sort of. 23:31:33 python: src/filesysobj.c:132: filesys_obj_check: Assertion `obj->refcount > 0' failed. 23:31:43 I'm not very familiar with using subroutines in bash, but I get | and & and all that. 23:32:29 "A self-hosted implementation in IRP does not exist because if it did it would be quite annoying." 23:32:33 I assume it just sits and never halts as it waits for IO 23:32:34 CakeProphet: It just defines a command, basically. 23:32:34 !sh import sys 23:32:36 /usr/bin/import: /usr/lib/plash/lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.9' not found (required by /lib64/libglib-2.0.so.0) 23:32:44 CakeProphet: Er... no. 23:32:50 bomb() { bomb | bomb & } 23:32:53 So if we call bomb, 23:33:02 !sh ls 23:33:03 interps 23:33:04 it... never halts, right? 23:33:07 it spawns two new bombs in the background 23:33:10 and halts immediately 23:33:11 ah. 23:33:13 both those bombs then 23:33:17 spawn two new bombs in the background 23:33:19 and halt immediately 23:33:20 oh shit. 23:33:23 those 4 bombs then 23:33:25 spawn two new bombs in the background 23:33:26 and halt immediately 23:33:33 I believe I see the pattern now. :) 23:33:36 in a few seconds, the system is bogged down. 23:34:29 !sh ls / 23:34:30 bin 23:34:38 how does & bind 23:34:41 is it 23:34:46 bomb | (bomb &) 23:34:53 or the whole line? 23:34:58 i think it's bomb | (bomb &) 23:35:04 as that's the only version that would keep the processes around. 23:35:07 that's how I read it anyways. 23:36:28 !haskell import Control.Monad; import System.Posix.Process; forkBomb = forever $ forkProcess forkBomb 23:37:06 calamari: it is not so flawed :) 23:37:16 no it's awesome :) 23:37:24 alise, wouldn't they explode? 23:37:28 wonder how he did it 23:37:40 AnMaster: wat 23:37:44 calamari: simple 23:37:45 alise, bad joke 23:38:29 calamari: EgoBot runs as its own user, in a chroot. Inside this chroot, it runs plash, which is a sandboxing solution for Debian. He uses this to turn off everything dangerous. Then, he sets extreme ulimits. 23:38:30 Job done. 23:38:51 !sh ls /usr/bin 23:38:51 411toppm 23:40:01 !sh ls /usr/bin | tr '\n' ' ' 23:40:06 !sh ls /usr/bin | xargs echo 23:40:06 411toppm X11 [ a2p addftinfo addpart addr2line afmtodit animate anytopnm aot-compile appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as asciitopgm aspell aspell-import atktopbm austro autopoint awk b1ff base64 basename bashbug bc bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bioradtopgm bmptopnm bmptoppm brooklyn brus 23:40:15 X11! 23:40:17 !sh X11 23:40:17 /tmp/input.15104: line 1: X11: command not found 23:40:22 !sh /usr/bin/X11 23:40:22 /tmp/input.15135: line 1: /usr/bin/X11: is a directory 23:40:25 !sh /usr/bin/X 23:40:26 /tmp/input.15162: line 1: /usr/bin/X: No such file or directory 23:40:29 !sh ls /usr/bin/X11 23:40:29 !sh ps axww 23:40:30 411toppm 23:40:42 /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:57: Not in scope: `isAlpha' 23:40:42 23:40:42 /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:70: Not in scope: `isSpace' 23:40:42 23:40:42 /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:151: Not in scope: `isAlpha' 23:40:43 23:40:45 /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:164: Not in scope: `isSpace' 23:40:47 23:40:49 /tmp/input.23495.hs:1:245: Not in scope: `toLower' 23:40:51 23:40:53 wat 23:40:54 !sh ls -d /usr/bin/X11 23:40:55 /usr/bin/X11 23:40:55 !sh ls /usr/bin/X11 | xargs echo 23:40:56 411toppm X11 [ a2p addftinfo addpart addr2line afmtodit animate anytopnm aot-compile appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as asciitopgm aspell aspell-import atktopbm austro autopoint awk b1ff base64 basename bashbug bc bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bioradtopgm bmptopnm bmptoppm brooklyn brus 23:40:57 !sh ls /usr/bin/X11 | xargs echo 23:40:58 411toppm X11 [ a2p addftinfo addpart addr2line afmtodit animate anytopnm aot-compile appletviewer apropos apt apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as asciitopgm aspell aspell-import atktopbm austro autopoint awk b1ff base64 basename bashbug bc bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bioradtopgm bmptopnm bmptoppm brooklyn brus 23:41:02 wtf. 23:41:03 !sh ls -dl /usr/bin/X11 23:41:04 /bin/ls: /usr/bin/X11: Function not implemented 23:41:07 what 23:41:09 XDDD 23:41:11 !sh ls -ld /usr/bin/X11 23:41:12 /bin/ls: /usr/bin/X11: Function not implemented 23:41:17 !ls ls -l /usr/bin/X11 | xargs echo 23:41:22 !sh ls --version | xargs echo 23:41:23 ls (GNU coreutils) 7.4 Copyright (C) 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc. License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later . This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. Written by Richard M. Stallman and David MacKenzie. 23:41:23 !sh python 23:41:25 !ls ls -l /usr/bin/X11 2>&1 | xargs echo 23:41:31 !sh ls -l /usr/bin/X11 2>&1 | xargs echo 23:41:32 /bin/ls: /usr/bin/X11: Function not implemented lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 1 May 2 2009 /usr/bin/X11 -> . 23:41:33 lol !ls 23:41:36 alise, how can ls -l fail like that 23:41:44 AnMaster: I dunno, plash disables all sorts 23:41:50 !run ls 23:41:53 !run ls -l 23:41:54 run? 23:41:55 sh 23:41:55 oh wait 23:41:59 `run ls -l 23:41:59 run is HackEgo 23:42:08 `run ls -l /usr/bin/X11 23:42:14 lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 1 Jun 19 2009 /usr/bin/X11 -> . 23:42:14 total 564 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jul 3 22:41 bin \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 61187 Jul 3 22:41 cube2.base64 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 45293 Jul 3 22:41 cube2.jpg \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 20 Jul 3 22:41 hack_gregor \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 10 Jul 3 22:41 hello.txt \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 166 Jul 3 22:41 help.txt \ -rw-r--r-- 23:42:21 !haskell main = main 23:42:22 works better 23:42:23 strange 23:42:30 !haskell main@m=m 23:42:41 !haskell main@m=putStr"dickbutt ">>m 23:42:42 main@m? 23:42:43 `run /usr/bin/X 23:42:45 No output. 23:42:48 CakeProphet: yeah 23:42:50 `run /usr/bin/XOrg 2>&1 23:42:51 /bin/bash: line 1: /usr/bin/XOrg: No such file or directory 23:42:55 you can do (Foo bar)@x or was it x@(Foo bar) 23:42:59 alise: I thought @ was for list matching. 23:43:00 binds x to (Foo bar) and pattern matches 23:43:06 `run ls /usr/bin/X* | xargs echo 23:43:08 2to3-2.6 X11 [ a2p addpart addr2line apropos apt-cache apt-cdrom apt-config apt-extracttemplates apt-ftparchive apt-get apt-key apt-mark apt-sortpkgs aptitude aptitude-create-state-bundle aptitude-curses aptitude-run-state-bundle ar arch as awk axi-cache base64 basename bashbug bdftopcf bdftops bdftruncate bsd-from bsd-write c++ 23:43:16 `run ls -d /usr/bin/X* | xargs echo 23:43:17 /usr/bin/X11 23:43:18 so main@m or m@main whichever it is assigns main and "pattern matches" it as m inside the body 23:43:18 alise: oh so @ just works on any pattern. 23:45:48 !sh tree 23:45:48 /tmp/input.15940: line 1: tree: command not found 23:46:11 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:46:16 !sh df -h 23:46:17 /bin/df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory 23:46:22 !sh echo "I am a man from the future" 23:46:23 I am a man from the future 23:46:41 !sh mount 23:46:42 plash: warning: setuid/gid bit not honoured on `/bin/mount' 23:48:20 hmm, presumably mount doesn't work very well if it doesn't run setuid 23:48:37 ais523: seems to ave shown me what I wanted to know 23:48:43 have 23:50:34 !sh cat /proc/meminfo 23:50:34 MemTotal: 1048792 kB 23:50:48 Here is something in D&D game http://sprunge.us/gGec OK, your turn 23:51:58 !sh echo PING 23:52:11 Is the source code of eggbot available ? 23:53:04 eggbot? XD 23:53:09 `help 23:53:10 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 23:53:25 Egobot, sorry :) 23:53:34 chickenzilla: https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 23:53:37 Someone needs some sleep. 23:53:42 Thanks ! 23:53:54 Hey, I have a commit there. Cool. 23:54:31 I should run my MUD server off of HackEgo. :P 23:55:30 `run ping google.com 23:55:31 pong 23:56:00 !sh ping google.com 23:56:00 plash: warning: setuid/gid bit not honoured on `/bin/ping' 23:56:42 !sh ifconfig -a 23:56:42 /tmp/input.16397: line 1: ifconfig: command not found 23:57:01 `ping 23:57:03 pong 23:57:13 `su 23:57:14 No output. 23:57:31 Why does ping need setuid? 23:57:33 `df -h 23:57:34 No output. 23:57:41 `run df -h 23:57:42 No output. 23:57:50 am I using hackego correctly? 23:58:08 `ls -a 23:58:09 bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.16621 \ wunderbar_emporium 23:59:05 `run /bin/df 23:59:06 No output. 2010-07-04: 00:00:02 Sgeo__: because you can't send arbitrary ICMP messages without root privs 00:00:11 or you could really snarfle up a network 00:00:41 !sh telnet 00:00:42 /tmp/input.16734: line 1: telnet: command not found 00:02:14 !sh uname -a 00:02:14 Linux codu.org 2.6.26-1-xen-amd64 #1 SMP Sat Jan 10 20:39:26 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux 00:04:43 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:05:10 ais523: I wonder how Plan 9 does ping? 00:05:12 It has no setuid. 00:07:13 QEMU GUIs: any recommendations? 00:09:20 ais523: what's the thing to add a user to a group? addgroup? 00:10:56 Eh, I'll just edit /etc/passwd. 00:11:21 alise: I think you're missing an OS somewhere 00:11:40 calamari: ? 00:11:43 oh you meant frontends.. never mind :) 00:17:21 night 00:18:35 The `ls command is broke O NO 00:18:37 `ls 00:18:52 O NO 00:18:53 No output. 00:19:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:19:58 Does it break all the time like that? 00:20:31 Yeah. 00:20:33 Gregor! 00:20:40 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:23:16 http://sprunge.us/gGec 00:25:39 alise: adduser user group, IIRC 00:25:59 heh i was trying to do kvm not kqemu >_< 00:26:47 That URL is something for D&D game, do you have any opinion of it? 00:26:52 * Sgeo considers just buying Kindle books from now on 00:27:38 Sgeo: No, don't support the Kindle. 00:27:39 Sgeo: Why? 00:27:51 alise, any other suggestions? 00:28:12 I just buy proper books, with paper 00:28:18 Sgeo: Get some other ebook reader? I'm not sure that there /is/ a good ebook store. Piracy would be a reasonable option. 00:28:26 zzo38: You can't carry a hundred books around with you -- especially textbooks. 00:28:33 But indeed, I do enjoy paper. 00:28:43 I'd like to see any ebook reader match the typography achieved by well-set books. 00:29:09 I do carry around a lot of books when necessary 00:29:29 There's no Kindle edition of Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency 00:30:16 Sgeo: Buy the dead tree version. Adams typeset it himself, on a Macintosh Plus II (IIRC)! 00:30:25 I know he typeset it himself with MacAuthor, that's in the introduction. 00:31:04 It has one or two blatant spelling errors though. 00:31:09 ("tjat" for "that", for instance.) 00:31:35 Hmm, MacAuthor was MacWriter's codename. But it was 1987, so it would be MacWriter. Curious. 00:31:42 If I didn't pirate it, who would I be supporting? 00:32:10 00:32:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 00:32:19 Sgeo: evil corporations. 00:32:28 Sgeo: publishers. 00:32:39 Sgeo: Perhaps half a penny to his widow. 00:33:43 Wait, hm. 00:33:46 Dunno if he was actually married. 00:34:03 Yes, they did. 00:36:10 I think I prefer reading on my N1 to physical books 00:36:22 -!- alise_ has joined. 00:37:15 What happened to my internet? Huh. 00:38:35 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:39:43 Ah 00:39:48 It's nice to read HHGG again 00:39:56 Although this is only the sample 00:40:00 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:40:14 Sgeo: I have a long-term-ish plan to produce a wonderful, (La)TeX-set H2G2. 00:40:30 Spurred on by Quadrescence's homemade printing press. 00:40:43 typesetting 00:40:45 my head 00:41:01 Sgeo: tl;dr it'll look really pretty and you'll feel happy as you read it. 00:41:37 Unfortunately, I have been unable to obtain a good text source. 00:41:47 I just need one with the italic Guide text marked and with some way to differentiate opening and closing quotes. 00:42:42 * Sgeo upsets at lack of Dirk Gently on Kindle 00:42:46 I'm half tempted to pirate 00:42:58 Especially because there's some thorough source for Aldiko 00:43:16 The thing is, the pirated stuff seems to be crappily done 00:43:27 Tried a Pratchett book, didn't see any footnotes 00:43:56 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 00:44:09 Mm; we really need better contraband books. 00:44:18 Nicely-set LaTeX. :P 00:44:50 I can't wait until .so is available. 00:44:52 I can't remember who invented Lisp 00:44:52 libc6.so 00:44:54 what is his name. 00:44:56 CakeProphet: McCarthy. 00:44:58 ah right 00:45:03 have you see his Elephant language? 00:45:06 John McCarthy. 00:45:10 CakeProphet: I have read little bits about it. 00:45:16 it's not very well documented as it's probably just a concept at this point 00:45:32 His mind is still sharp, it seems. 00:45:39 yes 00:45:46 I'm not sure I fully understand Elephant though 00:46:47 "End of this sample Kindle book" 00:46:48 Bleh 00:47:16 -!- coppro has joined. 00:47:34 alise_: I like the idea of being able to refer to the past as a means of memory. 00:47:43 just unsure of the implementation. 00:48:57 Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency is here 00:49:10 * Sgeo guilties 00:50:02 alise_, indiscriminatelyfrom? 00:50:11 Is that from the original, or a typo in this verison? 00:50:18 Sgeo: Typo, I am pretty sure. 00:50:23 :( 00:50:28 Sgeo: Fuck it, want me to mail you my paperback? 00:50:50 I could probably buy it, but I end up losing paperbacks eventually 00:50:53 so, if I can fetch arbitrary URLs to egobot 00:51:06 there's nothing really stopping me from compiling programming language interpreters/compilers onto it, correct? 00:51:18 CakeProphet: indeed. it's easier just to send a revision to Gregor, though 00:51:21 also, HackEgo is more suited to that 00:51:31 EgoBot doesn't really keep state afaik 00:51:31 ah, perhaps 00:51:39 er 00:51:39 Now that I have Internet access whereever I go, I'm more willing to go to the bookstore 00:51:42 I meant HackEgo actually 00:51:53 the one that has a sandbox 00:52:59 I wonder if you could combine functional programming with temporal logic as in Elephant 00:53:46 Why does The Last Hero have to be one of very few Pratchett books not on Kindle? 00:53:52 It's one of very few I haven't read 00:53:52 The simplest function of the past is the value of some parameter at a given time, say the account balance of a certain person on January 5, 1991. References to the past are rarely this simple. 00:53:56 Next we may consider the time of a certain event, say the time when a person was born. 00:53:58 Erm, Discworld, not Pratchett in general 00:54:00 Slightly more complex is the first or last time a certain event occurred or a certain parameter had a certain value, say the most recent time a certain person was overdrawn at his bank. 00:54:04 More generally, we may consider the unique time or the first or last time a certain proposition was true. 00:55:36 the if-where concept would come in handy for that. if where 00:56:38 rather than breaking it up into two statements. 00:57:42 Sgeo: Because it's 20 centimeters on a side, in larger print, and very illustrated 00:59:55 CakeProphet: egobot has a sandbox 00:59:58 just not persistance afaik 01:00:04 *persistence 01:00:05 Hm, guess I have to buy a print version 01:00:17 I wanted all my books from now on to be eBooks :/ 01:00:18 Sgeo: Stop buying Kindle books. 01:00:31 I haven't bought any yet 01:00:47 Well, don't. 01:01:05 Why not? 01:01:36 Because the Kindle is a closed, DRM'd platform with the ability -- and which has happened, with Animal Farm and 1984 -- to yank books remotely from your Kindle device. 01:01:42 Ergo, don't support Amazon's Kindle endeavours. 01:01:51 Hm 01:01:54 Alternatives? 01:03:02 Well, that's the issue, isn't it. 01:03:21 Wonder what Sony readers recommend. 01:03:36 http://ebookstore.sony.com/ Hmm. 01:04:02 Sgeo: Any ebook store will work, really, as long as they use some format that your reader supports; if it's the Kindle, then ... options are limited. 01:04:14 The Kindle doesn't support ebook files, afaik. 01:04:18 Hmm, what about the Nook? What system does that use? B&N's, presumably. 01:04:22 I'm using a Nexus One 01:04:57 Nook sucks because it's quite slow, the actual-screen is distracting and laggy, and the you-can-only-lend-one-copy-lol is asshattery disguised as a revolutionary revival of the true nature of books. 01:05:14 For a nexus one, anything goes; presumably everything has an appropriate reader. But honestly, reading on that screen is not good for you! 01:05:17 *Nexus One 01:05:19 And you won't enjoy it. 01:06:31 I'm finding it comfortable so far 01:06:34 Sgeo: when/if I complete an Android game app 01:06:35 In my limited experience 01:06:37 you should playtest it. :) 01:06:43 Sgeo: Well, you're wrong. 01:06:44 CakeProphet, will do :D 01:07:03 Sgeo: it'll be sort of Metroid-inspired 01:07:18 with 360 degree aiming... if it turns out we can actually animate that. 01:07:19 I've heard Aquaria was.. Metroidy in some way? 01:07:34 hmmm, dunno. I've never heard of it. 01:07:47 like, I'm really not sure I have the programming experience to pull off my ideas 01:07:52 or the game design experience 01:07:55 I've read a dozen (or three) books on the N900 (which I guess has a similar screen) so far, but of course that's just me; I tend to read books with a monospace terminal font in less anyway. 01:07:57 but if I can... I think it will sell very well. 01:08:21 TIMESTRETCH. PROJECTILE. PUZZLES. 01:08:58 (The physical page-flippin keys -- officially volume control, or zoom in browser -- are a nice addition, though.) 01:09:14 allow me to clarify: as a puzzle element of the game you can fire missiles that stretch-time in the radius around them upon explosion. You would use this to run by turrets as their otherwise unavoidable bullets are slowed. 01:10:36 ...don't even ask me if I can program that. But I've found a sweet open source 2d engine for Android 01:10:39 that will make things easier. 01:12:49 CakeProphet: that's a great idea. make it free :| 01:13:27 well 01:13:29 see 01:13:32 I need money. :P 01:13:39 Ads! 01:13:46 so what I plan on doing is releasing the code open source but copyrighting the artwork. 01:14:00 meh. dunno. perhaps ads would be worthwhile as I would get more total downloads 01:14:13 at the very least there will be a free version. Every successful Android game has a free version 01:14:29 * Sgeo wonders if that's true of iOS games as well 01:14:35 If not, that would be fairly.. sad 01:14:57 CakeProphet: I suggest offering support for profit. ...Wait. 01:15:09 I just have my general objection to copyright, really. :P 01:15:47 alise_: me too, but unfortunately I see the practical benefits. Especially being unemployed. 01:15:48 Unenforcable != should be legal 01:16:08 ^^trap I've fallen into way too much 01:16:12 Sgeo: Nice of you to be so presumptious of your reasons. 01:16:17 I have far deeper arguments about copyright. 01:16:24 *of my reasons 01:17:56 I really don't have very solid reasons for supporting no-copyright, but I can defend against the typical reasons 01:18:06 it's counter-intuitive to capitalism. 01:18:53 ah, but I lack the time to open this can of worms 01:18:56 I have places to go. 01:19:17 talk to you guys later. 01:20:15 bye CakeProphet :) 01:29:57 Sgeo: Why should there be unenforcable laws? 01:30:13 All they do is bloat the legal system, after all. 01:31:16 They encourage more lawful people to follow them 01:31:33 There are people who care about following the rules 01:31:56 and they get run over by the people who don't 01:31:56 Although, in my case, I have a tendency to care about that, while philisophically disagreeing with such a mentality :/ 01:32:13 coppro: not always 01:32:25 being seen to break the law, even an unenforceable one, sometimes has other drawbacks 01:32:30 like people trusting you less from then on 01:32:34 ais523: ssh, I'm playing devil's advocate here! 01:32:46 I don't think many people have a strong will to follow unenforcable laws that they do not think are right. 01:32:56 And they will still do what they think is right in the absence of unenforcable laws. 01:33:13 So they are useless except for people like ais523 -- but then he'd be morally perfect even in the absence of laws. 01:33:14 ais523: Only when the law in question is commonly seen as a reasonable moral code. 01:33:27 pikhq: yes 01:33:33 in which case, is a law necessary? 01:33:33 or if you're in a rather unusual community for some reason 01:33:35 And the thing is, laws *do not exist to dictate morality*... 01:33:46 laws exist to codify it 01:34:05 They exist to keep society running. 01:34:09 "Probably all laws are useless; for good men do not want laws at all, and bad men are made no better by them." --Demonax, Roman philosopher and possessor of the most badass name in history. 01:34:12 Don't give a flying fuck about morality. 01:34:35 arguably, laws are useful if only as a prediction of how the police and courts will behave 01:34:36 Of course, back then there were a lot fewer book-keeping laws and it was mostly legislation of morality. 01:34:39 pikhq: Soo... how about them laws against gay marriage? 01:35:04 coppro: Those cause issues in the functioning of society, by causing unequal treatment of members of it. 01:35:06 coppro: the ironic thing is, I don't see how definition of what counts as marriage or not has anything to do with morality 01:35:09 it's just a definition 01:35:26 ais523: Yeah, but it exists as a reflection of morals 01:35:33 yep, OK 01:35:37 law is effect here, rather than cause 01:35:42 right 01:35:45 Marriage is between a man and many women, like it always used to be! 01:35:53 Yup, acting in opposition to the purpose of a legal system. 01:35:58 Sorry, *many girls 01:36:23 If laws existed to enforce morality, then surely, surely they'd legislate against more immoral behaviors. 01:37:13 Of course, the reductio ad absurdum of enforcing morality is extreme fascism. A slippery slope argument, yes, but one that conservatives have been steadily sliding down for quite a while now. 01:38:03 alise_: Is it really a "slippery slope" argument if people are actually advocating it? 01:38:23 Well, indeed. 01:38:27 pikhq: The problem there is that the distribution of political is unbalanced; the people performing the immoral acts are the ones with all the power 01:38:35 s/political/political power/ 01:38:46 I note that economic immorality goes unpunished. 01:39:07 coppro: Hooray, we have one of the major reasons why legal systems legislate hardly anything based on any reason at all! :P 01:39:08 As well as ecological immorality (BP got a slap on the wrist). 01:39:19 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 01:39:26 alise_: their stock price plummeted miles, which is more than just a slap on the wrist 01:39:31 alise_: It does not go entirely unpunished 01:39:35 Going to go eat now. 01:39:36 the markets managed to punish them pretty effectively, even if the government didn't 01:39:41 it certainly doesn't get punished appropriately 01:39:43 ais523: yeah, but they sell fucking /oil/, they'll be back up soon 01:40:09 pikhq: Could you please remove the curry powder from my body? 01:40:11 the US is going to be on BP's ass for a lot of money for a long time 01:40:44 corruption is a real problem in basically every government in the world 01:40:45 alise_: Sure. 01:41:05 pikhq: O-kay, this is way too ambiguous. 01:41:11 in the US, it's big enough that it's actually noticeable, which is worrying 01:41:22 normally they hide it better in first-world countries 01:41:27 ais523: on a scale of 1 to 10, how much does anarchism scare you? 01:41:32 coppro: Yes, but they sell *oil*. 01:41:34 alise_: pretty highly 01:41:37 maybe around 8 or 9 01:41:44 ais523: under what definition of anarchism? Somalia? 01:41:55 I'm talking about, e.g. anarcho-syndicalism. 01:42:03 alise_: a generic one where there's no authority of any kind 01:42:09 it would lead to large levels of vigilantism, at least 01:42:12 Anything that doesn't have a peaceful plan of transition scares me 01:42:14 If BP really wanted to, they could *stop selling oil in the US*. 01:42:19 and vigilantes tend to be rather indiscriminate 01:42:26 Thereby causing immediate collapse of giant chunks of infrastructure. 01:42:27 ais523: That's a statement that I believe to be unjustified; people have a tendency of vastly oversimplifying anarchism. 01:42:43 You can't just say "generic anarchism", the different strains differ *very* much. 01:42:50 pikhq: and that would be how the US would get back at BP? 01:42:54 Granted, the supply would eventually be met by other suppliers, but damn would it hurt. 01:42:55 alise_: agreed; I was trying to interpret your question 01:42:55 oh, I see what you mean 01:42:58 yes, 01:43:05 there is a third option, though 01:43:08 did you hear about the BNP setting up its own private police force in an attempt, they claimed, to reduce crime? 01:43:25 it actually made things worse because the real police had to follow them around to stop them doing anything illegal 01:43:25 ais523: Yes. 01:43:26 the US can expropriate 01:44:10 I'm a bit of an anarcho-syndicalist, which is somewhat of a strange position for a strong cynic. 01:44:47 I tend to espouse liberal policies (with a libertarian bent wrt social issues), though, as anarchism is so far removed from current political debate as to be almost irrelevant to bring up. 01:45:45 Ah, I do love xkill; the indiscriminate chainsaw of the Linux world. 01:45:46 ideally, I think you want the impression of strong authority 01:45:58 ais523: Ew, no thanks. 01:46:03 I don't want to be living in a dictatorship, even a mock one. 01:46:13 alise_: I mean, a benevolent one 01:46:21 benevolent dictatorships are unlikely to exist 01:46:33 The issue being that there is no suitable benevolent dictator. 01:46:34 "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." 01:46:39 but if you somehow persuade someone they're in a benevolent dictatorship, with an efficient police force, when there is in fact no government 01:46:41 "Suitable" includes "immortal". 01:46:58 that would seem to be optimal, but unfortunately impossible 01:47:12 ais523: what about an insane sociopath who just wants to kill people and cares not of the consequences? 01:47:25 so he's killed, so what? at least he killed someone first 01:47:29 you'd need an actual police force 01:47:35 "when there is in fact no government" 01:47:41 yep 01:48:00 they'd have to be too terrified of the nonexistent government to become corrupt 01:48:14 nonsense; sociopaths have no sense of morals, they simply don't care 01:48:30 they can fully believe the government will kill them but if they're insane enough to want to go on a killing spree whatever the consequences, why should they care? 01:48:47 anyone know how to use kqemu? 01:48:48 alise_: I mean, you have people who actually stop them, even the citizens at large 01:48:57 ais523: why? the police force will do it. 01:49:01 and you install kqemu, then run qemu with sudo 01:49:08 alise_: hmm 01:49:27 you tend to get a lot of local crime-suppression even in, say, the UK 01:49:42 well, in the UK we're all nosy, paranoid fuckers. 01:49:58 especially in places which have good reason to fear a crime, like banks and jewelery stores 01:50:21 "don returned to Case Institute for his Senior Year. At the graduation ceremonies, they 01:50:21 were handing out the diplomas in alphabetical order. But they passed over don when they 01:50:22 got to the k’s. (Maybe lowercase k comes after Z). After all of the diplomas were handed 01:50:22 out, they asked don to step up on the platform. They said for the first time in the history of 01:50:22 Case Institute, they were conferring a Masters Degree on a student that had been pursuing a 01:50:22 Bachelors Degree." 01:50:49 So, is KVM the new KQEMU? 01:51:07 KQEMU, was initially released free of charge but was licensed as a closed-source proprietary product. However, since version 1.3.0pre10[5], released on February 5, 2007, it has been available under the GNU General Public License. QEMU versions starting with 0.12.0 no longer support KQEMU.[6] 01:51:20 Eh. 01:51:39 KQEMU is an accelerator module 01:51:51 coppro: no, it's deprecated. 01:51:54 Regular QEMU will be fine. 01:51:57 Just slow. 01:52:00 It takes some code and executes it directly 01:52:06 it will work on any processor 01:52:08 err 01:52:09 any x86 01:52:39 KVM, on the other hand, requires a processor capable of doing virtualization directly 01:53:05 is KVM a bitch to get working? 01:53:15 dunno 01:53:32 I haven't tried it on a machine capable 01:54:13 I guess QEMU will be fast enough for Plan 9. 01:54:13 Alise, when will you read Fine Structure? 01:54:23 Sgeo: *alise; and when I'm out of the unit and in another country. 01:55:46 Wow, the Plan 9 mouse is slow. 01:58:11 ais523: wow, recursive descent was preceeded with the ridiculous "recursive ascent": 01:58:12 Ned Irons preceded our invention with a Recursive Ascent technique that starts off by 01:58:12 calling the primary routine, which makes the assumption that it should call the expression 01:58:12 routine, which makes the assumption that it must be in an assignment statement and calls 01:58:12 that routine. Obviously, expressions appear in places other than assignment statements. So 01:58:12 his technique makes mistakes. It recovers from the mistakes by leaving tracks that allow it 01:58:13 to find its was back to where the erroneous assumption was made. It then makes another 01:58:15 guess and starts working its way up the syntax chart again. Ned’s technique is obviously 01:58:17 slower, does not exercise as tight control, and gives pretty poor error messages. He imple- 01:58:19 mented his parser on a CDC 1604 at he University Of Princeton in 1960. He was working 01:58:21 with a group from the University Of Pennsylvania. 01:58:45 alise_: that's pretty much just backtracking, isn't it? 01:58:51 wait, no 01:58:52 ais523: but crazy 01:58:54 that really is insane 01:59:10 how does ANYONE think of that before recursive descent? 01:59:14 although, I suppose it could have helped to inspire the brilliantly crazy LR(1) 01:59:23 which vaguely resembles that, except actually works 01:59:36 LR(0)! fuck yeah! 01:59:47 it's a pity language designers don't use LR(1) so much nowadays, it's all LR(0), LL(1), and the occasional LALR(1) 02:00:04 INTERCAL is LR(infinity), btw 02:00:06 which one is the most complex of those? 02:00:10 LALR is the most complex right? 02:00:16 LALR's a special case of LR 02:00:24 hmm 02:00:26 is LL more general than LR? 02:00:28 which isn't quite as good, but uses a fraction of the memory 02:00:29 or vice-versa? 02:00:35 and LR's more general than LL 02:00:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:00:39 anything more general than LR? 02:00:46 I mention LALR(1) because that's what yacc does 02:00:53 and yes, bison supports GLR(1) 02:01:18 which is a sort of nondeterministic LR(1) 02:01:25 I mean, more nondeterministic than LR(1) normally is 02:01:29 GLR(infinity) 02:01:33 and thus is capable of handling /any/ lang 02:01:46 oh, so GLR(infinity) isn't more powerful 02:01:46 aww 02:01:49 ais523: err, no 02:01:57 although, GLR(2) would be a lot more efficient than GLR(1) at a lang that was actually LR(2) 02:01:59 ais523: it can't handle, say, ZFC, can it? 02:02:07 alise_: err, any TC-parseable lang 02:02:07 after all, that's a language, technically 02:02:32 in most channels, I wouldn't even need to add the qualifier that the language has to be theoretically possible to parse... 02:02:58 `quote in most channels, I wouldn't even need to add the qualifier that the language has to be theoretically possible to parse... 02:03:02 coppro: addquote 02:03:11 `addquote in most channels, I wouldn't even need to add the qualifier that the language has to be theoretically possible to parse... 02:03:14 No output. 02:03:20 Oh. HackEgo's broken. Sorry. 02:03:20 `quote theoretically 02:03:27 No output. 02:03:31 ugh, how did it break? 02:03:36 No output. 02:03:49 ais523: I have a pet theory that #esoteric is one of the best places to find computer science talent in the world; the only problem is that there's a lot of fluff here too, like me and AnMaster, and the channel is so tiny. :) 02:04:11 alise_: I wouldn't be surprised 02:04:18 well, it depends on what you're trying to do 02:04:30 thanks, eBay: 31 items found 02:04:35 there's a kind of problem which is simultaneously theoretical computer science, and engineering 02:04:42 and it's that sort of problem that #esotericers are good at 02:04:43 and that's your problem :P 02:04:50 it comes up surprisingly often, but people don't recognise it 02:05:20 ais523: outside of academia, otoh, our solutions to those problems are ... well ... not accepted :P 02:05:30 alise_: you don't consider me fluff? yay! 02:05:35 :P 02:05:42 coppro: indeed not! although i don't know if you do any actual cs 02:05:47 alise_: nah, my solutions at least often are accepted 02:05:54 alise_: A lot of computer science talent, but we seem to *all* suffer from project ADD. 02:05:57 certainly if anyone wants a /programmer/ they'll find an excellent one here 02:05:58 alise_: Not as of yet 02:06:03 although I normally need a complete rewrite to get them in anything close to language that other people understand 02:06:17 I'm starting my CS degree next year 02:06:25 * SgeoN1 wonders what he's considered 02:06:26 coppro: congratulations; you'll then know nothing about CS 02:06:35 coppro: good thing you're in Canada rather than the UK; otherwise I might end up teaching you 02:06:38 unless the CS curriculum has improved significantly since the last time I looked. 02:06:39 and that would be really embarassing, probably 02:06:42 ais523: good thing? bad thing! 02:06:52 alise_: Not really. 02:06:54 alise_: It's at UW, which is known for teaching actual CS 02:07:01 ais523: what uni do i need to go to to get taught by you, birmingham? 02:07:05 yes 02:07:07 coppro: Even *MIT* have ruined their CS curriculum. 02:07:09 In general, a CS degree is a degree in being able to program. 02:07:11 M I fucking T! 02:07:14 ais523: i'm there 02:07:19 but I'm not actually all that good at teaching 02:07:26 pikhq: except you can't handle fizzbuzz or linked lists 02:07:35 nearly all the students hate me, except for contradictory reasons 02:07:46 ais523: i don't really care, it'd be cool to meet you :P 02:07:57 and you could just give me A++++++++++ on everything since clearly i am awesome 02:08:04 This scenario is realistic. 02:08:04 Hmm. I was considering going to Stony Brook postgraduate so I could get an actual CS degree and education. 02:08:05 nah, that would be bias 02:08:09 and besides, marks are percentages 02:08:14 Sgeo: augur went to stony brook at some point 02:08:19 ais523: 111%, then! 02:08:21 it's bad enough when you're trying to anonymously mark someone whose ID number you have memorised 02:08:23 I did one better than 110%. 02:08:38 Unless there are some serious issues with my academics, I'm going to try for a double major in pure math too 02:08:51 alise_: Uh... That's like first or second semester... 02:09:04 i did indeed! 02:09:09 pikhq: You do realise that plenty of people get a Bachelor's degree in CS without actually being able to do one bit of CS? 02:09:22 Currently the major I'm in is .. a bit less than pure programming, I'd say 02:09:23 alise_: Somehow, yes. 02:09:31 Because (a) people are stupid and (b) a lot of universities suck. 02:09:39 So, yeah, a CS degree counts for nothing these days. 02:09:39 The CS programs I've seen at least teach *programming* well. 02:09:39 the quality of some of the students worries me, although most of them are very good 02:09:47 also, I'm pretty certain that Java does not make a good first language 02:09:54 although, it's the one I have to teach anyway 02:09:58 Well, except for that really retarded one that considered C a very hard, optional thing. 02:10:06 On the plus side, I'm at the top of every computer class... which says more about the other students, really 02:10:22 Rather than, y'know, essential to *practical* programming these days, regardless of whether or not you use it. 02:10:45 SgeoN1: Stop being so self-deprecating, already 02:11:02 coppro: Sgeo is simultaneously too self-deprecating and too naive. 02:11:07 A difficult combination to achieve. 02:11:11 I liked my (electronic engineering) degree; the first languages they taught us were C and asm, simultaneously 02:11:19 I suppose electronic engineers rarely work with anything higher-level 02:11:21 pikhq: I don't think CS courses should concentrate on practical programming at all. 02:11:26 pikhq: Programming, yes; practical, no. 02:11:26 SgeoN1: whats your interest in stony brook? 02:11:36 IIRC the current program at UW is Scheme then into Python or C (student's choice) 02:11:40 pikhq: C is probably worth teaching because if you can't understand pointers you lose. 02:11:53 coppro: which will you choose, do you think? 02:12:13 I'd choose C; with Python there'll be an awful lot of Python-related cruft and rubbish class-ery. 02:12:19 It's hard to bullshit C, especially if you start with Scheme. 02:12:20 Augur, a decent CS curriculum, rather than "Computer Programming/Information Systems" 02:12:21 alise_: "Practical" in the sense of "if you do any nontrivial programming at all, you will need to understand C." 02:12:25 definitely choose C 02:12:33 Python will be easier to pick up later, among other things 02:12:37 I know both languages 02:12:39 Python is a language to get shit done in, not a language to understand things in. 02:12:48 Among the reasons are the fact that Guido doesn't know shit himself :P 02:12:51 and learning C helps get rid of a whole bunch of awful misconceptions about how computers work 02:12:59 coppro already knows both 02:13:02 I don't have very many of those either 02:13:02 SgeoN1: ahh, yes. i would suggest UMD cause thats where i am but i dont know if they have much hardcore computer science 02:13:03 but I think he should pick C, personally 02:13:17 theres a CS department, ofcourse, but i dont know if theres anything theoretical being done 02:13:20 I'll probably pick C 02:13:25 This channel humbles me. 02:13:27 VICTORY HAHAHA 02:13:34 SgeoN1: why?? 02:13:39 SgeoN1: humbled me once too, just find a niche 02:13:42 i haven't, mind you 02:13:44 and yes, the whole situation with Python and tail-call optimisation is a really depressing one 02:13:54 yes, yes it is 02:14:02 there are other depressing things about Python, but that's the biggest one 02:14:07 my life goal is basically to be a dilettante with some specialist subjects on the side. 02:14:16 (meanwhile, Perl has a special operator for TCO, and just for fun, calls it "goto") 02:14:38 (it has three goto statements, in fact; but the one that does TCO is the only one that Perl experts actually recommend using) 02:14:39 Python's easier, but I will probably learn more in C 02:14:45 What niche would I have, besides virtual world stuff? 02:14:49 ais523: three of them? 02:14:51 which are they? 02:15:04 Which isn't a particularly relevant niche? 02:15:20 ais523: you know VPRI? 02:15:23 that was at ais523 02:15:26 coppro: label: goto label; my $labelname="label"; goto $labelname; sub tco_infinite_loop { goto &tco_infinite_loop; } 02:15:27 goto, goto &, and goto (with a labeled loop), IIRC. 02:15:28 SgeoN1: who knows. play with everything, find something you like 02:15:40 Ah, right, that was it. 02:15:44 SgeoN1: stop being so damn nostalgic; stop caring so much about recognition... and do interesting stuff instead. 02:15:45 the second form makes the heads of good-practices people explode 02:15:49 but doesn't really have any other purpose 02:15:50 no kidding 02:15:52 I think the self depreciation is partially because Alise got to me. And dang it, I need to fix that cap 02:16:03 *alise 02:16:10 Like I said. 02:16:26 :P 02:16:31 I never meant to make you hate yourself >_< 02:16:35 SgeoN1: You're very intelligent, we all just think you're a little quirky because you spend your time on games that were in fashion 20 years ago 02:16:36 ais523: goto & is analogous to using jmp to a function in assembly, I'm pretty sure. 02:17:01 SgeoN1: If you were an idiot we would have ignored you long ago. 02:17:02 coppro, 15 02:17:06 I think if SgeoN1 gets over the severe case of nostalgia, and gets over the extreme caring about recognition, he could do great things. 02:17:14 pikhq: yes, although not implemented the same way 02:17:18 ...and replying to that with "15" just proves coppro's point. 02:17:23 ais523: Yes. 02:17:35 it basically jumps out of one function and into another without any of the typical prologue/epilogue 02:18:12 which is what TCO /is/, if you think about it 02:18:36 I've never thought about it any other way 02:18:51 SgeoN1: whats your particular interest in CS? 02:19:29 Partially knowing how things work, partially keeping up with this channel 02:19:30 coppro: if you look at it at a higher level (say, the one Scheme works in), it's more like calling a function then deleting the second-top stack frame 02:19:38 which is actually how it's implemented in INTERCAL 02:20:05 hmm, I was in a car with my supervisor for several hours 02:20:09 "A type-safe embedding of x86-64 assembly into Haskell" 02:20:10 /orgasm 02:20:20 and we were discussing language features 02:20:38 it seems that INTERCAL's NEXT FROM is actually used in a few mainstream mathematical models, although ones I hadn't heard of 02:20:39 ais523: True. 02:20:43 it /is/ a very neat command 02:20:51 which is NEXT FROM again? 02:21:12 I haven't intercaled in a while 02:21:35 it causes the target line to do a function call to the current line, when it's encountered 02:23:27 Wow, Plan 9 is installing slowly. 02:23:42 ais523: explicit entry points :) 02:23:50 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 02:23:58 ais523: okay, this is a sign that I need to read the spec again 02:25:01 read the Revamped Manual, or maybe CLC-INTERCAL's spec; NEXT FROM's been in CLC-INTERCAL for ages, but was added to C-INTERCAL only recently 02:25:04 so it's not in the older manual 02:25:20 ais523: ok, ridiculous idea for a language: we have eax-ish variable @. [<] marks an entry point, @ here will be function argument, [>] marks an exit point, @ is return, e.g. [<] x = @; @ = x + 2 [>]. [label] specifies that we jump to this label to return 02:25:34 it's like generalised come from / goto with structure of a sort 02:25:42 oh, it's just COME FROM that saves the address 02:25:53 boring; that makes it too easy 02:25:58 coppro: no, it's NEXT FROM that saves the address, COME FROM doesn't 02:25:59 lectures are the proper way to go 02:26:02 also, NEXT saves the address 02:26:07 GO TO wouldn't, but doesn't exist in INTERCAL 02:26:13 eax? 02:26:20 ais523: yes, that's what I mean; NEXT FROM is COME FROM except that it does save the address 02:26:29 yes 02:26:56 I really like modern INTERCAL's flow structure; easy to grasp how it works and remember it, flexible enough to do all sorts of interesting things, yet unlike other languages 02:27:02 SgeoN1: what about it? 02:27:04 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:27:07 if you haven't seen continuation.i, try reading it sometime 02:27:51 As far as I know, it's a register, but context implies that there's something special about it. 02:28:20 SgeoN1: it's a register that's commonly used to pass arguments in 32-bit x86 ABIs, IIRC 02:28:31 and to pass results 02:30:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:33:45 ais523: any thoughts about my [<], [>] idea? it's not that interesting I guess 02:33:48 but it does sort of unify stuff 02:34:05 [<] and [>] can be read as [any], i.e. "we have a language construct that specifies the label to be used here" 02:34:08 alise_: it's sort-of how I think about INTERCAL 02:34:35 so that e.g. "foo(?foo_result); [foo_result] result = @" works 02:34:43 because the [>] gets reinterpreted as [foo_result], i.e. jump to foo_result 02:34:49 but then we can't call functions 02:34:52 only enter 02:34:58 via a goto thing 02:35:00 but that's dynamic 02:35:01 so we have 02:35:39 @ = 42; foo : foo_entry : foo_result; [foo_entry] [foo_result] result = @; 02:36:00 where f:a:b means "set up f's [<] points to be [] points to be [>b]" 02:36:06 maybe foo < foo_entry > foo_result is a nicer syntax 02:36:24 so it's like... voluntary come from :) 02:39:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:42:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:44:08 ais523: hmm, I can't see plan 9 ping doing anything special 02:44:13 but then the default user has a lot of privileges 02:46:57 Why the hell isn't there a type-safe database. 02:48:10 alise_: many SQL databases are vaguely type-safe 02:48:17 and could probably be made more so without major issues 02:48:18 Yeah, but not in the good kind of way. 02:48:25 * alise_ writes a DB monad 02:57:32 ais523: what power does recursive descent have? i forget 02:57:36 it doesn't really have lookahead 02:57:38 without, say, ungetc 02:57:43 then it's... R(1), if that even makes sense? 02:58:06 which method is recursive descent, again? 02:58:16 one element in the syntax tree becomes a procedure 02:58:20 x := 'a' y 'b' becomes 02:58:27 x() { char('a'); y(); char('b') } 02:58:38 it's going to be something(0) in that case 02:58:43 possibly LL(0) 02:58:52 but I can't remember exactly how the naming scheme works 02:58:55 wrong 02:58:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_descent_parser 02:58:57 LL(k) 02:59:09 i mean, ofc, i elided the accept stuff 03:00:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:02:12 i quite like recursive descent 03:02:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:02:30 hmm... i think you can make an LL(infinity) recursive descent 03:02:40 if input is an array, just have accepting(symbol, n) 03:02:44 where n = 0 produces current symbol 03:04:13 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:06:45 hmm, an a^nb^nc^n parser in C is oddly ugly 03:09:01 -!- coppro has joined. 03:10:30 int anbncn(char *s) 03:10:30 { 03:10:30 #define Ntimes(c) while (*s++ == c) i++; if (i != n) return 0; i = 0 03:10:30 int i = 0, n = 1; 03:10:30 if (*s++ != 'a') return 0; 03:10:30 while (*s++ == 'a') n++; 03:10:32 Ntimes('b'); 03:10:34 Ntimes('c'); 03:10:36 return 1; 03:10:38 } 03:10:40 best i have so far 03:10:42 kinda ugly really 03:13:02 ais523: ok, insane idea: post-emptive multitasking 03:13:17 it runs the two programs, *then* decides the best times to switch 03:13:24 Waitwhat? 03:13:43 alise_: brilliant 03:14:11 presumably, this would somehow take place retroactively 03:14:49 Clearly, a use for TARDIS in Befunge. 03:14:55 you could perhaps implement this by somehow "speculating" on how the program is going to run, and deciding based on that; then, if it turns out you chose wrong, try and multitask 'the opposite way' to correct for your errors (i.e. if a process was neglected, give it disproportionate time) -- and update your prediction values accordingly 03:15:00 pikhq: *TRDS 03:15:10 Ah, yes. 03:15:29 Time and Relative Dimension in Space, not Time And Relative Dimension In Space. 03:15:32 :P 03:23:41 * Sgeo is getting a C# book for free soonish 03:24:58 All I have to do is tutor someone and make more money 03:25:28 that doesn't count as free 03:27:59 One, you can't tutor someone -- nothing personal, it's just that very few people can teach effectively. 03:28:04 Two, why the fuck do you want such a book? 03:28:07 Three, yeah, that's not free. 03:29:24 No money is leaving my hands 03:30:03 you have a stupid definition of free, then 03:30:15 If $10/h really does balance out with what my time is worth (I'm bad at knowing how much money is worth) then yes, the book is free 03:30:46 you have to be pretty young for an hour's work to only be worth $10, if the work's on someone else's terms rather than yours 03:33:14 your time is only worth $10/h if you're retarded 03:33:32 :/ 03:33:44 Does being clueless with money count as "retarded"? 03:33:47 =P 03:37:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:39:26 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:39:37 -!- Halph has joined. 03:39:50 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 03:40:59 Is it safe to dd into a filter and then into dd for the same file? 03:41:39 Too hot in here... 03:41:45 coppro: I don't think so. 03:41:55 The last dd process will start immediately and open the file in write mode, erasing it. 03:42:11 does this apply to a device? 03:43:01 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:44:15 coppro: probably not 03:44:19 coppro: well 03:44:23 coppro: streaming device or block device? 03:44:26 dunno the correct terms 03:44:27 uh 03:44:35 block 03:44:43 (the other one is character btw) 03:44:51 coppro: i... wouldn't risk it, tbh. 03:44:57 try it with a floppy device or something :P 03:45:27 I'd have backups, and the whole point would be to prevent idiot support agents from having access to my files while still making it relatively quick for me to undo 03:46:49 Idiot support agents? 03:47:16 well, guys fixing my computer 03:50:47 why do you have such guys? 03:51:33 warranty 03:52:02 (the "oops I hit my computer will you fix it pls" kind) 03:52:06 +with a hammer 03:53:44 coppro: well ... don't hit it 03:59:01 hmm, I have to hit this computer occasionally to stop it overheating 03:59:12 it took a while to figure out where to hit it to stop the fan getting stuck 03:59:51 yawn.... 4am 03:59:55 ais523: when did you wake up? 04:07:46 -!- Oranjer has joined. 04:09:14 ais523: omfg, esolang mailing list activity 04:09:55 I forgot that existed 04:09:58 (and am not subscribed) 04:11:01 Caller: comex 04:11:01 Judge: Wooble 04:11:03 this can only go well 04:11:24 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:11:40 alise_: heh 04:11:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:12:02 in B, I just judged that a scam that I myself had tried to take advantage of (better than the original scamster) worked 04:12:06 I wonder if people will appeal? 04:13:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:14:06 how would $you write an a^nb^nc^n parser in C? 04:14:26 does it have to shortcircuit? 04:14:28 i.e. f(s) iff s = "a"^n "b"^n "c"^n [anything] 04:14:35 ais523: no, just that specification above 04:14:37 the only concern is elegance 04:14:39 and simplicity 04:14:40 the simplest way would probably be to count as, count bs, count cs, compare 04:14:48 indeed 04:14:57 and simplest way to count a particular letter is just to read until you get a different letter, then ungetc it 04:15:01 ungetc was invented for that purpose 04:15:32 int anbncn(char *s) { 04:15:32 int i,j,k; 04:15:32 for(i=0; *s++ == 'a'; i++); 04:15:32 for(j=0; *s++ == 'b'; j++); 04:15:32 for(k=0; *s++ == 'c'; k++); 04:15:32 return i==j && j==k; 04:15:34 } 04:15:36 It's on a string. 04:15:45 this accepts the empty string though with junk after it 04:15:47 which isn't really kosher 04:15:50 so let's say it has to check end of string 04:16:02 just check for \0 after the comparison 04:16:11 int anbncn(char *s) { 04:16:11 int i,j,k; 04:16:11 for(i=0; *s++ == 'a'; i++); 04:16:11 for(j=0; *s++ == 'b'; j++); 04:16:11 for(k=0; *s++ == 'c'; k++); 04:16:12 return !*s && i==j && j==k; 04:16:14 } 04:16:15 as in, return i==j && j==k && !*s 04:16:20 yeah 04:17:49 More "abstract" version: 04:17:50 int anbncn(char *s) { 04:17:50 int n[3], i; 04:17:50 for(i=0; i<3; i++) 04:17:50 while(*s++ == "abc"[i]) n[i]++; 04:17:50 return !*s && n[0]==n[1] && n[1]==n[2]; 04:17:52 } 04:17:54 Less clear, though. 04:20:15 ais523: ok then, here's something tricker: a parser that parses (a_0)^n (a_1)^(n+1) (a_2)^(n+2) ... (a_i)^(n+i) for a fixed alphabet a of size i, and arbitrary n. 04:21:44 int decralph(char *s, char *a, int sz) { 04:21:44 int n[sz], i; 04:21:44 for(i=0; i while(*s++ == a[i]) n[i]++; 04:21:44 for(i=0; i if(n[i+1] != n[i]+1) return 0; 04:21:46 return !*s; 04:21:48 } 04:21:50 I think. 04:21:52 Well, you can't actually do int n[sz]. 04:22:02 int decralph(char *s, char *a, int sz) { 04:22:03 alise_: VLA? 04:22:03 int *n = malloc(sizeof(int)*sz), i; 04:22:03 for(i=0; i while(*s++ == a[i]) n[i]++; 04:22:03 for(i=0; i if(n[i+1] != n[i]+1) return 0; 04:22:06 return !*s; 04:22:08 } 04:22:08 perfectly legal in C99 04:22:13 ais523: Well, sure, but :P 04:22:18 and you forgot to free n 04:22:18 Anyway, I /think/ that code is correct. 04:22:22 True enough. 04:22:32 if you want to keep it short, you could use alloca, but that's nonstandard 04:22:40 despite normally existing in practice 04:23:31 dammit, C needs 'finally' :P 04:24:32 int decralph(char *s, char *a, int sz) { 04:24:32 int *n = malloc(sizeof(int)*sz), i, ret=1; 04:24:32 for(i=0; i while(*s++ == a[i]) n[i]++; 04:24:32 for(i=0; i if(n[i+1] != n[i]+1) ret=0; goto end; 04:24:35 end: free(n); return ret && !*s; 04:24:37 } 04:24:39 There. Ugly, sure, but what the hell. 04:24:44 Hmm, you could do this in one pass. 04:25:38 int decralph(char *s, char *a, int sz) { 04:25:39 int *n = malloc(sizeof(int)*sz), i; 04:25:39 for(i=0; i while(*s++ == a[i]) n[i]++; 04:25:39 if(i>0 && n[i]!=n[i-1]+1) { free(n); return 0; } 04:25:39 } 04:25:41 free(n); 04:25:43 return !*s; 04:25:45 } 04:26:17 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye). 04:26:55 ais523: the nice thing about recursive descent is that you can include little ultra-powerful parsers like that as part of it 04:26:58 as long as they have a recognisable start 04:27:14 (i.e., you never get aabc being valid but different from aabbcc) 04:29:05 Gotta love recursive decent. 04:29:12 Erm. Descent. 04:30:20 The kind of parser you end up writing without ever having heard of just because they are that intuitive. 04:31:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:33:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:34:01 pikhq: no! Recursive ASCENT! 04:34:09 It is the most hideously stupid parser ever-- and therefore, our favourite! 04:34:10 alise_: o.O 04:34:21 pikhq: Actually invented BEFORE descent. 04:34:35 surely bogoparse is the most hideously stupid parser ever? 04:34:37 Not under that name, of course. 04:34:38 Ned Irons preceded our invention with a Recursive Ascent technique that starts off by 04:34:38 calling the primary routine, which makes the assumption that it should call the expression 04:34:39 routine, which makes the assumption that it must be in an assignment statement and calls 04:34:39 that routine. Obviously, expressions appear in places other than assignment statements. So 04:34:39 his technique makes mistakes. It recovers from the mistakes by leaving tracks that allow it 04:34:40 to find its was back to where the erroneous assumption was made. It then makes another 04:34:41 generate random parse-trees, see if they're correct 04:34:42 guess and starts working its way up the syntax chart again. Ned’s technique is obviously 04:34:44 slower, does not exercise as tight control, and gives pretty poor error messages. He imple- 04:34:46 mented his parser on a CDC 1604 at he University Of Princeton in 1960. He was working 04:34:48 with a group from the University Of Pennsylvania. 04:34:53 actually, that's not so different from recursive ascent 04:34:55 But... And... That... And? 04:35:22 That sounds freaking awful. 04:35:34 "An expression? I hear those appear in assignments! Let's go with that." 04:35:58 I cannot fathom accidentally reinventing one of those. 04:36:12 I have written parsers and realised after the fact that they were recursive descent. 04:36:33 CLC-INTERCAL's parser is now so complex that CLC doesn't have a clue what the operator precedence and associativity is 04:36:37 or even if it's consistent 04:36:38 Because they just seem freaking natural for anything that's got clean BNF. 04:37:18 ais523: once, the CLC parser proved a false statement 04:37:23 but nobody noticed, as it seemed like normal output 04:37:40 alise_: its output is ICBM bytecode 04:37:55 oh, I see, you were making a joke on "consistent" 04:38:00 and I did an AnMaster and missed it 04:38:32 it would be cool if it actually outputted a proof that the given text must parse to a certain parse tree :) 04:38:34 What does the CLC in CLC-INTERCAL mean? 04:38:43 pikhq: it's the initials of the primary author 04:38:47 Ah. 04:39:12 Why can't a predictive recursive descent parser parse an ambiguous grammar? 04:39:16 Clever "Lemniscate" Caviar 04:39:24 coppro: if it guesses wrong, it doesn't know what to do next 04:39:31 coppro: Why can't your MOTHER parse an ambiguous grammer?? 04:39:53 oh, duh 04:39:59 nm, being an idiot today 04:40:23 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:40:53 pikhq: So, typesettery. I was considering having the 'final stage' before actually putting pixels to paper be, basically, nested lists containing sets. 04:40:54 To explain: 04:41:03 Actually, no nested lists. 04:41:06 Just sets at certain points. 04:41:13 oh no, this isn't yet another total preorder is it/ 04:41:18 So, we say that at point (3,4) -- for some abstract coordinate system -- 04:41:28 those things have come up twice in a month at work, despite being generally unused 04:41:35 we have the foop (a (12 pt) bold) 04:41:38 which is the same as 04:41:43 ((pt 12) a bold) 04:41:46 etc 04:41:52 so we have nested sets here 04:42:04 now, when this is actually rendered, we ask the character set for a character matching these attributes 04:42:16 it's a, so it looks up the a character, then it looks for the bold variant, then it renders it at 12pt 04:42:20 and that's the pixels returned 04:42:28 now, these coordinates can overlap, because of kerning etc. 04:42:32 but this is okay, because of transparent backgrounds 04:42:57 btw <3 Parsec 04:42:58 things like borders would be big box characters around the stuff, i think 04:43:08 and images would be e.g. (image 234988eu98234-uniqueid) 04:43:15 coppro: (thumbs up) 04:45:30 coppro: It is awesomeness. 04:48:09 it is basically the way parsing was meant to be done 04:48:22 or IS it... dun dun DUNNNN 04:48:55 PEGs huh, i hear pegs are good, pirates have pegs fuckshitting pegs pirates yeaaah it's almost 5am. 04:48:59 FUCKING PIRATESHITTING PEGS! 04:49:01 anyway, moving on 04:49:06 nope, I'm pretty sure that when the gods crafted the Universe, they said "Well, we'll have to include parsing" "Oh, man, that sucks" "Well, we could make sure they get Parsec" "Sounds good" 04:49:07 Any parsing expression grammar can be converted directly into a recursive descent parser[citation needed]. 04:49:12 so they're like quite as awesome 04:49:13 twice 04:49:19 twice is basically the same word as quite ithink 04:49:24 there's a t there, thjat should be a c 04:49:27 but u is basically w 04:49:34 and nobody gievs a fuck about q, so we can just replace that with t 04:49:37 so we get quite = twice 04:50:39 ais523: So, um... when did you last sleep? I set my sleep clock on other people's. 04:50:52 alise_: woke up at about 5pm yesterday 04:51:00 my sleep clock is not a good one to set to, though 04:51:04 I last went to sleep 18 hours ago 04:51:06 fuck, i woke up at 10am this morning :) 04:51:14 my sleep is not a good one to set to if you're in the UK 04:51:18 10am this morning hasn't happened yet, at least if you're in the UK 04:51:30 * pikhq woke up at 10am as well 04:51:33 shut up i'm too tired to think so fuck that shit 04:51:41 pikhq: but it's like 7pm there in "MILD COUNTRY " 04:51:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:51:54 U S A , land of the mild 04:52:27 alise_: Try 11PM. 04:52:31 But yeah. 04:52:52 Also, mild country? 04:52:55 7 "mild" pm, the "mildest " of hours 04:53:15 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: backup). 04:53:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:53:31 mascot thourselfs towaqrds my untodistablishabilityies 04:53:34 Uh. It's 7 in Hawaii-Aleutian time? 04:53:35 * Sgeo arbitrarily decides that alise_ is mild 04:53:41 pikhq: FUCKING HAWAII 04:53:45 ... just 04:53:47 FUCKING HAWAII 04:56:25 TAIWAN WOW 05:00:22 man this is painful 05:01:08 台湾? 05:01:37 * pikhq loves polyglot sentences 05:01:50 pikhq: polyglot between which langs? 05:02:17 ais523: Japanese, all Sinitic languages, (atypically-written) Korean, (atypically-written) Vietnamese. 05:02:32 Yeah, that's right. An entire language branch. 05:02:33 :P 05:02:33 is it particularly meaningful in all of them? 05:02:39 Same meaning. 05:02:44 "Taiwan?" 05:02:51 ``TAIWAN``'' 05:03:08 No output. 05:03:16 that's a sort of pointless polyglot, then 05:03:22 sort-of like the null quine 05:03:27 It's easiest with proper nouns, yes. 05:03:44 NULL NOUNS 05:03:52 hmm, I wonder if there are any spoken Mandarin/Cantonese polyglots 05:04:08 Yes. 05:04:17 Not many, mind. 05:04:21 preferably, meaning a different thing in each lang 05:04:33 Oh, different meanings in each? Trivial. 05:04:49 They're both syllable/tonal structured, and there's overlapping syllables and tones. 05:04:53 SP[Æ]KING THE Shíshì shīshì Shī Shì, shì shī, shì shí shí shī. 05:04:54 I suppose so 05:05:08 perhaps you could make it a question in one lang, and its answer in another 05:05:09 WOULD BE THE SPOKING OF THE WORDS ENVISIONED -- INSIDE THIS -- pikhq -- THOU HA'STEST A LINGUISTIC SYSTEM 05:05:12 FOR THE TRANSCRIBING OF KANJI 05:05:21 APPLY IT TO THIS POE~TRY, LION - EATING POET IN STONE DEN, THE 05:05:28 《施氏食獅史》 05:05:28 石室詩士施氏,嗜獅,誓食十獅。 05:05:28 氏時時適市視獅。 05:05:28 十時,適十獅適市。 05:05:28 是時,適施氏適市。 05:05:29 氏視是十獅,恃矢勢,使是十獅逝世。 05:05:31 氏拾是十獅屍,適石室。 05:05:33 石室濕,氏使侍拭石室。 05:05:35 石室拭,氏始試食是十獅。 05:05:37 食時,始識是十獅,實十石獅屍。 05:05:39 試釋是事。 05:06:00 I can kinda-sorta understand that. 05:06:02 IT IS NOT REALLY KANJI BEING CHINESE I GUESS BUT WHO CARES 05:06:17 Really freaking weird-looking, mind, but. 05:06:42 IT IS ROMANISED IN "SHI"S 05:06:44 NOW ROMANISE IT 05:06:45 alise_: "Kanji" is more literally translated as "Chinese characters". Or even more literally translated as "Han dynasty characters". 05:06:58 Not all of those characters have Japanese readings. 05:07:08 I'll try though. 05:07:49 Oh, wait. The few that don't have reading indicators. I can cheat! 05:09:18 Ishishittsujishishishi, shishi, shishokujyuushi. Shijijitekishikanshi. Shiji, tekijyuushitekishi. Saiji, tekishishitekishi. Shikansaijyuushi, jishitsudou, bensaijyuushishise. Shikaisaijyuushishin, tekiishishitsu. 05:09:25 ... That's about where I'm going to give up. 05:09:37 pikhq: Excuse me? That is not entirely "shi". 05:09:42 Also, that is not in your romanisation scheme. 05:09:47 Yours had xs in, or something. 05:09:52 Oh, right. 05:12:34 Isisitus`isisisi, sisi, sisixyoku`ixyuusi. Siz`iz`itekisikannshi. Sis`i, tekis`ixyuusitekisi. Sais`i, tekisisitekisi. Sikansais`ixyuusi, s`isitut`ou, h`ennsais`ixyuusisise. Sikaisais`ixyuusisinn, tekiisisitu. 05:13:35 After that is where I stop being able to give or reasonably guess at readings. 05:14:37 321654165456465465 need to sleep 05:19:58 How do I tell if I've been a victim of C# poisoning? 05:20:32 you like c# 05:20:46 It is a nice language.. 05:20:57 alise_: C# is a massive improvement over all the other standard Windows application development languages 05:21:00 which is why people like it 05:21:22 Sgeo: poisoned 05:21:30 ais523: it's also shit 05:22:05 C++ is worse, Python is not statically typed, Java is worse 05:22:05 alise_: I don't know it well enough to know what bad points it has 05:22:23 what's so bad about it? I'm curious, and would like ammo to use against C#-loving types 05:22:48 C is not really application-level, especially for security-requiring stuff. Too easy to write unsafe code. 05:23:50 I think the thing I dislike most about C# is it reminds me a bit of MAGENTA 05:24:07 so many different ways to do things, that please different subsets of programmers, not for any particularly good reason 05:24:26 night 05:24:30 Night alise_ 05:31:07 night 05:31:34 -!- alise_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:42:59 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 05:47:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:47:42 Sgeo: a C# is fine too. 05:47:53 I rather like. It's basically what Java should be. 05:47:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:48:35 like... it always pissed me off that methods weren't first-class in Java 05:49:08 but in C# there's multicast delegates. It already saves you a shit ton of work when doing something event-driven. 05:49:44 CakeProphet: are in Java 1.7 05:49:49 all of it's bad points are essentially the same as Java 05:49:50 first-class methods, that is 05:50:04 ais523: oh really? Hmmm, okay. I assume it works differently from delegates based on your wording. 05:50:22 CakeProphet: you use # rather than . when referencing a method 05:50:29 and you get what's basically a function pointer 05:50:34 oh... eh. 05:50:39 is it typesafe? 05:50:43 ofc you could do it anyway making an anon class, and people did all the time, but that's stupidly wordy 05:50:55 and I'd guess it's typesafe at compile time but not run time, the way type erasure normally works 05:51:01 ais523: very stpidly. It's cumkbersome when it should be easy. 05:51:13 *stupidly 05:51:33 Suddenly getting first-class methods won't help when most Java APIs expect classes.. 05:51:40 yeah. 05:52:17 delegates are probably my favorite thing about C#. It's the thing that makes it stand out when compared to Java. 05:52:58 It's possible to go overboard, though 05:53:08 ah, well yes. 05:53:09 I recently wrote a function with 3 nested anonymous delegates. 05:53:19 fortunately every language design isn't Guido 05:53:31 or we'd be trying to prevent everything that allows mistake. 05:53:36 and failing miserably. 05:53:46 er *language designer 05:53:52 I need to pay more attention to what I type. :P 05:55:03 I have so many crazy and conflicting language ideas... I don't think I could ever unify them. 05:55:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:55:28 Crazy and conflicting, like ABCDEF? 05:55:34 * Sgeo sins by abbreviating it 05:55:47 right now I'm considering how one would merge concepts from Elephant with functional and OO paradigms. 05:55:52 Sgeo: no clue what that is... 05:56:07 but mostly functional. I'd pick functional over OO I think. 05:56:38 so essentially logic programming mixed with functional 05:57:02 where you have an implicit history (possibly via monad?) that can be referred to and manipulated via temporal logic. 05:57:25 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory 05:57:31 ooooh 05:57:50 Sgeo: no not quite. 05:58:02 let's see... 05:58:37 some other language ideas I want to develop involve manipulation and definition of syntax... in a sane way. I suppose like Lisp macros but in a more syntatically diverse setting. 05:59:34 I sort of envison it like defining a custom parser in Parsec, that interprets the language for the syntax element in question. 06:05:51 ...though, I don't know 06:05:53 that might be too much. 06:06:16 maybe it's just easier to have macro operators. Combinations of operators. 06:08:22 Sgeo: someone should actually run a ABCDEF 06:08:35 CakeProphet, it was, once 06:08:43 We just never wrote a spec for the resulting language 06:08:47 nobody did the actual compilation into a language 06:15:14 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:18:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:22:14 * pikhq adores the Meiryo font now 06:32:50 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:34:48 I cannot wait for tomorrow night (technically today's night, since it's past midnight now) 06:35:37 You know the kid I was talking about as being a co-worker? 06:35:43 Of sorts? 06:35:46 American Independence Day celebration... with terrible cheap vodka and pot brownies 06:35:51 Sgeo_: ...no 06:40:19 I am wondering what I should mix this vodka with though. It's /bad/... it cannot be drank neat. 06:40:42 Perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_on_the_beach_(cocktail) 06:40:57 * Sgeo_ would rather have real sex 06:41:23 Sgeo_: ha. well of course. 06:41:37 but we are cheap bastards 06:41:39 so anything we make 06:41:43 will not be those ingredients exactly. 06:41:53 it'll be like, orange soda and peach-cranberry juice. 06:42:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:43:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 06:50:20 Sgeo_: okay... so 06:50:41 I've got $6 US and a $12 handle of vodka. What mixers should I purchase? 06:51:07 His computer was taken away, apparently because his parents thought that they needed it more than he does 06:51:18 oh damn. 06:51:26 this was for the virtual world thing right? 06:51:37 Yes 06:51:56 Seriously, taking a computer away from a kid programmer has got to be the most obnoxious.. 06:52:24 yes. 06:52:42 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:52:44 Sgeo_: how old are you? 06:52:57 I didn't realize until recently how many very young people inhabit this channel. 06:53:00 * Sgeo_ is 21. The kid is around 15 06:53:13 * CakeProphet is 18. 19 in a few weeks. 07:02:14 hmmmm salty dog / greyhound = vodka + grapefruit juice 07:02:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:02:16 this is convenient 07:02:27 as I already have some grapefruit juice. 07:03:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 07:06:20 Yorsh (Russian: ёрш) is a Russian drink consisting simply of beer thoroughly mixed with an ample quantity of vodka. 07:06:26 .....why would you ever do that. 07:06:54 Preparation: mix thoroughly and drink quickly! 07:06:57 I bet. 07:21:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:23:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 07:41:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:43:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 07:46:43 -!- Adrian^L has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:46:48 -!- Adrian^L has joined. 07:51:14 -!- coppro has joined. 07:51:47 argh, annoying 07:52:29 a) I have two partitions on my computer doing nothing. I would be more worried if that wasn't what most of the rest of my disk space was also doing 07:52:30 b) my backup disk is refusing to be bootable 07:55:30 * Sgeo_ should probably sleep soon 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:03:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 08:21:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:23:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 08:23:46 * ais523 reads Reddit discuss Lotus Notes 08:24:05 someone suggested to get a similar effect, you should try compiling Firefox's source with ghc without porting it to Haskell first 08:25:37 Similar effect to what? 08:26:21 ais523: er... lots of syntax errors? 08:26:24 :D 08:26:32 Sgeo_: Lotus Notes 08:26:35 CakeProphet: I have no idea 08:26:43 but it must be bad if someone even /suggested/ that analogy 08:27:12 ah 08:27:31 but you can just enable -CompileFirefoxSource extension in GHC 08:27:36 it's pretty much standard Haskell at this point 08:28:02 haha 08:28:26 closely related is EnableSkynet 08:28:35 though it's fairly undocumented. 08:30:38 "Copyright 200X ACM X-XXXXX-XX-X/XX/XX ...$10.00." 08:30:51 strangest copyright notice I've ever seen, although admittedly it was on a draft paper 08:35:10 ha 08:35:24 Copyright 2XXX 08:35:32 by _______ ________ 08:35:58 ais523: do you know anything about mixed drinks by chance? 08:36:19 no; I don't drink alcohol 08:36:39 ah. well nevermind. :D 08:41:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:43:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 08:52:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:59:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 09:01:44 anyone here? 09:04:42 yes 09:17:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:19:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 09:37:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:39:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 09:40:42 * ais523 randomly comes across a compile-time FizzBuzz in C++ 09:40:44 http://www.adampetersen.se/articles/fizzbuzz.htm 09:43:59 -!- tombom has joined. 09:54:52 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:57:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:59:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 10:01:27 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 10:12:17 -!- coppro has joined. 10:12:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:13:26 hahah, my backup is working 10:17:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:19:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 10:23:49 -!- ski has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:27:07 -!- ski has joined. 10:30:30 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: testing bootability). 10:34:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 10:39:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 10:42:43 http://nethack.petricek.net/ :-) 10:57:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:59:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:17:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:19:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:27:04 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:37:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:39:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 11:57:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:59:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 12:03:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:29:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 12:32:01 -!- tulcod has joined. 12:32:31 so are there any languages for which it isn't intuitively clear that they're turing-complete? 12:33:14 -!- alise has joined. 12:33:23 no you can always sense it 12:33:57 well, all languages i've seen so far are pretty obvious 12:34:06 what have you seen 12:34:19 . 12:34:26 i don't know . 12:34:36 all the brainf*ck languages and stuff 12:34:41 "ACTA has now been declared a trade agreement thereby bypassing the congress." 12:34:41 simply weird syntax for assembly 12:34:48 tulcod: we have far more shit 12:34:54 underload 12:34:58 unlambda 12:35:00 toi 12:35:05 oklopol's langs 12:35:05 check toi first 12:35:10 :-) 12:35:17 intercal with extensions 12:35:34 BCT 12:35:40 http://esolangs.org/wiki/ 12:36:07 all of those except toi are pretty obvious tho, so maybe you should check out toi?!? 12:36:24 oh umm bct 12:36:28 so humble 12:36:34 i know 12:36:40 oklopol: point is they're more interesting than bf 12:37:11 oh for tcness 12:37:17 well yes but compared to toi... yeah i'll shut up 12:37:24 yeah tcness 12:37:27 tulcod: yes, you can easily make a language tc iff goldbach conjecture 12:37:28 alise: hm, just looking at underload, that's far better than whitespace and all that wikipedian crap :) 12:37:29 forget how 12:37:32 so i was at least partially being useful 12:37:44 whitespace is a syntax language, yes 12:37:48 quite 12:37:48 tulcod: we're the snob part of the esolang guys :P 12:38:13 there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into. 12:38:32 all 102% of languages 12:38:43 the 2% that's both is my languages, there's just a few of them but i counted them multiple times because they're awesome. 12:39:03 how did i get this humble i wonder 12:39:23 tulcod: some of the absolute best languages come from cpressey. classics like befunge but also very abstract, unknown-tc langs 12:39:30 i did like graphica's syntax, but admittedly toi has the worst syntax ever 12:39:42 tulcod: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Chris_Pressey; 12:39:44 i don't know much about cpressey's work outside bf 12:39:47 and: 12:39:57 oklopol: cpressey didn't do bf he did befunge :P 12:40:01 yeah yeah i know 12:40:07 (.b) 12:40:12 (but sry) 12:40:20 tulcod: http://catseye.tc/cpressey/lingography.html his languages 12:40:29 hm nice 12:40:35 tulcod: further you go down, much more interesting and CSy they get 12:40:41 hehe 12:40:48 e.g. burro where the set of burro programs is a group 12:40:59 oh smetana was his 12:41:19 " 12:41:19 Okapi is a language I designed for my wife for our sixth anniversary. Its only means of control flow is throwing exceptions, and as if this wasn't enough, there are two restrictions on exceptions that are thrown — they must be divide-by-zero exceptions, and they must be caught in a lexically enclosing block. Nor is there any facility to "retry" after an exception is caught. The language is nonetheless Turing-complete." 12:41:33 great anniversary present or best anniversary present? 12:41:49 alise: sounds great :D 12:42:22 RUBE is a classic by him 12:42:34 i'm just wondering what the message of making an error-based language is 12:43:09 SMITH (2000) 12:43:09 A self-modifying assembly-like language which completely lacks any kind of jump instructions whatsoever. 12:43:16 Noit o' mnain worb (2000) 12:43:16 A neat little toy automaton that uses pressure between randomly moving particles to approximate the behaviour of circuits. 12:43:24 worb is his too?!? 12:43:29 oh shit 12:43:34 cpressey: ur cool 12:43:44 hehe 12:43:45 you're my new idol, oerjan is out 12:43:58 Emmental (2007) 12:43:58 A self-modifying language; the language is defined in terms of a meta-circular interpreter, and this meta-circular interpreter provides an operation that redefines operations of the meta-circular interpreter. In fact, this mechanism is required for Emmental to be Turing-complete. 12:44:01 i could go on 12:44:07 but i won't :P 12:44:14 so why are you guys dedicated to this? is there any external interest in all this or is the esolang group just for the lols? 12:44:26 tulcod: well there are applications in CS 12:44:38 i'm aiming for a career in research in computability 12:44:44 our ais523 won the wolfram prize by inventing what is basically a deliberately sub-TC esolang tag system 12:44:47 iirc 12:45:14 and i wouldn't say many of us are all that dedicated :-P 12:45:17 tulcod: and his day job requires a lot of esolangy stuff 12:45:29 most of us just do this for fun and interestingness, though 12:45:34 more esolangy than fortran and basic? 12:45:46 more esolangy than haskell 12:45:49 hehe 12:45:57 "idealised concurrent algol", mathematical model 12:46:00 so what kinda work would that be? :) 12:46:08 i dunno exactly, ask him :P 12:46:16 cpressey: you on? 12:46:40 cpressey: yes could you tell us where you get your ideas 12:46:56 why does everything i say look sarcastic 12:47:04 maybe i'm TOO sincere 12:47:55 tulcod: wouter has cool stuff if you can handle his gigantic language list: http://strlen.com/proglang/index.html 12:48:07 highlight: http://strlen.com/aardappel/index.html 12:48:30 he also did false but that's basically brainfuck on a stack 12:48:48 !help languages 12:48:48 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 12:49:09 lazy k is pretty cool 12:49:14 tulcod: malbolge too 12:49:23 took a computer search to find the first hello world 12:49:26 and was /cryptanalysed/ 12:49:39 hehe 12:49:47 sub-tc but only for memory limitations 12:49:48 false is brainfuck on a stack? i'm not sure i agree 100%, but maybe i remember it wrong... 12:49:52 well 12:50:01 oklopol: http://esolangs.org/wiki/FALSE close enough 12:50:04 okay i guess if you interpret it freely enough 12:50:15 just more capable 12:50:20 with arithmetic and shit 12:50:24 so it's less esoteric :P 12:50:45 tulcod: btw brainfuck's goal was tiny compiler, not extreme abstract interest 12:51:01 well alright 12:51:08 i'm not saying the guys who designed it are stupid 12:51:13 but it's not extremely interesting 12:51:59 finally, if you ever want to see what over-engineering is, compare: 12:52:02 befunge-93 http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/website_befunge93.html 12:52:08 funge-98 http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html 12:52:11 brainfuck is based on a computational model called P'' whose point was to prove you can be tc without loops 12:52:22 well 12:52:32 oklopol: no without goto 12:52:32 i don't actually know for a fact it is based on this, but it's the same thing 12:52:37 err yes 12:52:41 "typo" 12:52:56 (was gonna write with loops, but it's the omission that's important so well yeah asd) 12:53:43 so anyway, that surely was interesting back then. 12:57:08 -!- cheater99 has joined. 13:01:52 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:20:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:22:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 13:40:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:41:52 rayikromtmrokt 13:42:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 13:47:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH0aEp1oDOI New version of Photoshop CS5 includes hyper-intelligent gnomes that can do anything. 13:48:46 that + http://vimeo.com/6496886 = gnome child labour 13:51:16 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:51:24 http://img.skitch.com/20091005-q5jx8gdg2j11ubrhap4fpfe8mp.jpg 13:51:30 Raptor, raptor, raptor, screaming man, endless void of space. 13:52:36 also seam carving 13:52:37 that's gnomes too 13:53:45 i think they're taking the term "magic wand" a bit too literally 14:00:27 [CSI] 14:00:31 http://i.imgur.com/ZN3b9.jpg "Oh no, the image is cropped!" 14:00:34 "It's okay! Just press undo! 14:00:35 " 14:00:39 [Synthesising...] 14:00:40 http://i.imgur.com/AqTcE.jpg 14:00:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:00:50 s/\n"/"/ 14:01:30 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:01:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:09:47 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH0aEp1oDOI <<< looks like someone finally made a program that isn't completely retarded 14:10:48 would be interesting to know how special-cased that is for real-life objects 14:11:03 (or the samples :-)) 14:12:30 apparently there's a quite old plugin for gimp that does the same thing quite well 14:12:38 i imagine it'd have an easier time with abstract shit 14:12:40 less crap to copy 14:12:47 the basic technique appears to be "given a texture, make more of that texture" 14:12:53 what's awesome about http://i.imgur.com/AqTcE.jpg is that it looks really natural, but actually the bottom makes absolutely no sense 14:12:55 presumably with some tweaks to mirror e.g. the balance of elements in the texture 14:13:06 oklopol: oh god you're right 14:13:10 shit, looking at the bottom is so disturbing 14:13:16 it's like... fractal and... evil 14:13:20 yes :D 14:13:22 awesome 14:13:32 shit, i'm pretty sure there's plant / zoomed out grass hybrids in there 14:13:38 that's just sick 14:13:41 * alise shivers 14:13:48 oklopol: though, admit you need to know it's computerized to see it 14:13:58 it is very convincing otherwise 14:14:06 to me it looks like there's some sort of portal to another forest 14:14:18 tulcod: you need to look at the bottom to see it, yes 14:14:30 as i said, it looks very natural if it's in the corner of the eye 14:14:55 i think if i looked at that dark patch in the bottom and then to the left i'd notice shit was up 14:15:01 plants are not furry like that 14:15:02 uuurgh 14:15:08 please obliterate this feature 14:15:10 but once you look at the bottom, you can tell by some of the pixels that there's a fucking portal to another forest. 14:15:22 oklopol: hey you're right, that dark spot looks like the trees in another forest 14:15:35 i still think that's incredible 14:15:36 the plants around it get spatially distorted due to, you know, portal physics 14:15:42 oklopol: if you went through the portal you'd be huge 14:15:43 :) 14:15:45 look how tiny the tree is 14:15:49 awesome 14:16:17 portal physics is the very scientific principle whereby portals do crazy shit 14:16:19 -!- hiato has joined. 14:17:06 yes; anyway i seriously want to hear how these algorithms work, but i presume i'd have to join the team 14:17:20 -!- relet has joined. 14:17:22 http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer 14:17:24 gimp plugin 14:17:25 -!- nooga has joined. 14:17:28 phd thesis detailing the algorithm 14:17:28 enjoy 14:17:33 (that creepy forest was done with resynthesiser) 14:17:42 (I have a hunch photoshop would produce something slightly less creepy) 14:17:42 oh that was not photoshop 14:17:48 yeah but 14:17:50 same algo basically 14:17:50 well judging by the youtube vid 14:17:57 gives almost identical results for most of the pics 14:18:00 how do you know it's the same algo 14:18:00 i guess forests are just pathological :P 14:18:08 oklopol: cuz the results are almost identical basically 14:18:12 also the internet says it's the same 14:18:19 and it has like the same tools 14:18:39 anyway just read the thesis, that's the creepy forest algo, the important portal one 14:18:44 results are almost identical, what are you basing this on? 14:18:54 looking at those examples, or more 14:18:57 people who did the panorama and desert thing, want me to find links? 14:19:33 well no need i guess 14:19:54 i will anyway because i'm awesome. 14:20:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:20:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 14:20:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:20:11 oklopol: you've seen http://vimeo.com/6496886 right? and the image resizing seam carving stuff? 14:20:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:20:27 how about synthesising a picture, removing some trees, then seam carving it 14:20:39 thought-out photography is so last century 14:20:53 "I'll bet it can uncrop a stock chart and predict the markets!" 14:21:16 someone linked to http://graphics.cs.cmu.edu/people/efros/research/NPS/efros-iccv99.pdf 14:21:20 "This is completely real. In fact, the technology has been in development since 1999. (pdf warning)" 14:21:38 oklopol: using an obviously lower-quality screenshot of the panorama from the video: 14:21:42 http://i.imgur.com/0yKBG.jpg 14:21:42 http://i.imgur.com/e25kG.jpg 14:21:49 i guess the problem is, like you said, that forests are a bit pathological, because you have small plants near, and big trees far, so they look roughly the same; so plants happen to get interpreted as trees, because the algo doesn't think in 3d 14:21:56 removing objects: 14:21:59 http://i.imgur.com/4A4ral.jpg 14:21:59 http://i.imgur.com/fEbazl.jpg 14:22:03 admittedly that example isn't so hard 14:22:10 and the grass is a bit dodgy around the removed area 14:22:35 oklopol: it's just that seeing furry grass-tree-plants makes me get scared that all matter is suddenly going to go slightly furry at the edges 14:22:42 that's how my brain responds to the visual information 14:22:47 "oh GOD fuzz apocalypse imminent" 14:22:52 ah i see 14:23:06 used to wonder what would happen if reality's texture system broke and i got mapped on to a couch 14:23:08 seriously 14:23:11 i was like 7 14:23:24 got pretty scared about it 14:25:30 give me an even number between 50 and 100 that doesn't repeat a digit 14:26:54 oklopol: not falling for that 14:26:55 holy fuck at the sketch thing 14:26:59 falling for it? 14:26:59 78 14:27:03 i saw it in the logs :p 14:27:06 what? 14:27:09 you did 14:27:12 when? 14:27:12 apparently everyone picks 68 14:27:16 uh a few days ago 14:27:27 someone linked to a shitty mind control blog mentioning it, after it worked on... maybe you 14:27:33 i'll try and find 14:27:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:27:45 oh hmm, maybe i got the link from here then, i thought i was googling for something else 14:27:52 and no i doubt i would've chosen 68 14:27:53 11:58:16 quick i need a someone to pick a *even* number between 50 and 100 that has two different digits! 14:27:53 12:00:04 68 14:27:53 12:00:29 interesting 14:27:53 12:00:35 thank you 14:27:53 12:00:40 hm? 14:27:54 12:00:41 --- part: ghostwriter42 left #esoteric 14:27:56 12:00:47 --- join: ghostwriter42 (~ghostwrit@unaffiliated/ghostwriter42) joined #esoteric 14:27:58 12:00:59 Is 68 a common response or something? 14:28:00 12:01:29 http://mindcontrol101.blogspot.com/ read the paragraph that says "pick a number" 14:28:02 12:02:17 ... 14:28:03 but 1/2 of my test subjects have said 68 14:28:04 12:02:27 i guess you win 14:28:06 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.07.01 14:28:08 oklopol: yeah i guess you wouldn't, but you aren't human 14:28:19 wonder why 68 14:28:46 we have one constraint on the pair that's completely symmetric in some sense, and a constraint on the latter digit 14:28:51 so obviously i would choose the latter one first 14:29:02 i might take an easy one like 2 14:29:08 then i could choose any number for the first one 14:29:27 68 is the first possible choice ofc, realizing that i don't think it's all that interesting 14:30:22 " wonder why 68" <<< ^ 14:30:37 okay pick a card please 14:31:05 3 of ... jacks 14:31:09 wait, that isn't a suit is it 14:31:09 :D 14:31:13 3 of spades 14:31:16 well not completely 14:31:21 xD 14:31:27 doesn't work when your target knows what you're doing 14:31:45 i'm doing a very partial disproof of these things working. 14:31:58 wtf, that thesis is 60 megabytes 14:32:01 HELLO I'M GOING TO TRY TO TRICK YOU INTO SAYING WHAT PEOPLE USUALLY SAY 14:32:05 was wondering why net was so slow 14:32:10 NOW PICK A CARD 14:32:15 I REFUSE 14:33:02 04:07:19 heh, just saw a bogus proof on Slashdot that the last digit of pi was 5 14:33:03 show? 14:35:01 tried to search for more of these because i'd like to try one on myself 14:35:11 and the link for http://www.indianchild.com/number_trick.htm gives the answer away on google 14:35:13 :D 14:35:23 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:35:36 you can't hypnotise yourself dude 14:35:38 duhh :P 14:35:43 sure you can 14:36:01 "While not absolutely everybody picks "3", most people do." <-- oh i thought it meant pick an /arbitrary/ number, i picked 72 14:36:04 oklopol: i was joking. 14:36:11 interesting fact, these tricks aren't hypnosis 14:36:11 i know 14:36:21 i guess i should have picked a real 14:36:21 -!- tulcod has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:36:27 did you pick 3? 14:36:28 but i think they probably meant natural even if they meant arbitrary 14:36:32 no picked 72 14:36:35 *no i 14:36:38 oh lol :D 14:37:01 you thought 1 2 3 4 was like a countdown to seeing how controllable you are 14:37:12 yeah 14:37:16 i thought it was gonna be like 14:37:18 "did you pick FIVE???" 14:37:43 then when i scrolled down I was like "what how does 1, 2, 3, 4 make people think the next entry should be '3'" 14:38:05 :D 14:38:48 WELL ACTUALLY I HERD THERES A POLYNOMIAL THAT IS THE SEQUENCE 1 2 3 4 3 14:39:04 that's asstonishing 14:39:11 lol ass-tonishing 14:39:17 i'm just tonishing my ass 14:39:22 you just lagrance it up you'd understand if you knew maths 14:39:37 but i guess you don't.................. 14:39:39 fragrance it up 14:40:03 hey did you read about my fart language btw 14:40:07 did you think it was awesome 14:40:10 no, is it farty? 14:40:22 well it's a bf derivative but even funnier 14:40:30 *it's like bf but 14:40:36 ooh is it wav files 14:40:38 and basically 14:40:41 it detects fart noises 14:40:47 and uses the duration and pitch to pick a command? 14:40:55 if so congratulations you are a genius 14:40:56 well i thought of that but fizzie refused to do the sound stuff for me :( 14:41:09 he's a fascist 14:41:12 but input is still in farts 14:41:12 kill him 14:41:17 and output too 14:41:39 i removed nestor loops because they are too complecited for me... 14:41:44 * alise farts 14:41:45 lol 14:41:51 oklopol: i don't think you need loops if you just have if 14:41:58 i mean you can just repaet the code multiple times instead of looping 14:42:01 so really you just need if 14:42:03 that should be tc 14:42:10 or 2d movement, that is also tc 14:42:18 well yes i also changed the for ... until loops of bf into just ifs but i think it's the same thing really 14:42:20 but really tc is irrelevant since we only have finite memory in the universe 14:42:36 so don't listen to the zealots who say "ohh you need tc" 14:42:43 its just a purist masturbating thing 14:42:50 i don't really understand tc 14:43:03 i don't i think it doesn't really mean much in the real world 14:43:06 if it like when you can use printers and usb drives and so on 14:43:09 *is 14:43:18 does your language run or replace windows ?? 14:43:20 and cd disquettes 14:43:23 i know windows is a language you can type things like "dir" into it 14:43:33 and "format c:" which formats your files to look better 14:43:37 that's what i heard on the internet 14:43:57 i think you should make a 3.75d version of your language 14:44:00 isometric 3d 14:44:03 like my favourite game 14:44:18 i dunno what isometric means 14:44:21 i think it means illegal 14:44:30 WHAT IS "IT" 14:44:32 the the the the the the of the 14:44:33 . 14:44:34 14:44:39 well an isometry is a distance-preserving bijection between two metric spaces 14:44:49 okay 14:44:53 so what is a language? 14:45:05 i dunnolol 14:45:58 i wish i was like this all the time, but made really awesome languages 14:46:12 heh 14:46:14 and then they'd always have some really stupid design flaws and retarded names for things 14:46:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:46:27 "what's that? my language is a turing-complete field? what's that" 14:46:31 but the ideas behind them would be awesome 14:46:40 :-) 14:46:41 "i just made a bf derivative..." 14:46:50 :----) 14:47:42 why does my computer suck so much this user interface was designed by a moron or something 14:47:44 like all user interfaces 14:48:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 14:48:22 "maybe its a filed but the POIT of the langauge is that the loopes are realy hard to write because you have to repeat every charater 40 times in soruce code :D" 14:48:43 the typos would be essential 14:48:53 and everything he'd say would be totally retarded 14:49:24 so basically asiekierka with a genius mathematician in his subconscious 14:49:52 I figured out how all those "fill in data that isn't there for pictures" stuff in shows works! 14:50:05 no you didn't 14:50:11 well we can instinctively do pretty awesome stuff ... like do differential calculus so fast we can catch a flying ball ... stole that from Dirk Gently 14:50:43 Basically, in secret, there are surveillance cameras everywhere, constantly taking very high resolution pictures. However, the secret network won't give up those picutures without proof that you had most of the data anyway. 14:50:45 i heard something about some psychology people saying people do diff calc when they catch balls 14:50:54 Sgeo_: 'most' 14:50:59 and i thought damn they're retarded 14:51:03 oklopol: also douglas adams, therefore it is true 14:51:05 well 14:51:07 Sgeo_: okay, then maybe 14:51:08 a character in a douglas adams novel 14:51:14 admittedly they can be pretty stupid 14:51:48 who's dirk gently? 14:52:05 * Sgeo_ ignores the succeeding conversation to best avoid spoilers 14:52:51 oklopol: Svald Cjelli a.k.a. Dirk Gently, of Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency 14:52:54 usually if i hear a spoiler, i completely forget about it once i start reading/watching said object 14:53:05 okay 14:53:14 a bloody good book 14:53:19 also it references prolog which is pretty neat i guess 14:53:36 but apparently there was something like that in a psychology book my friend had to read for schools. a uni course that is 14:53:50 oklopol: tl;dr dirk gently scams old people with missing cats using bullshit quantum physics 14:53:51 the psychology dep seems really retarded btw 14:54:13 oklopol: gura vg gheaf bhg gvzr vf shpxrq hc, naq n znpuvar perngrq fcrpvsvpnyyl gb oryvrir guvatf fb lbh qba'g unir gb sebz nabgure havirefr xvyyf n thl 14:54:16 Sgeo_: do NOT unrot13 that 14:54:19 huge spoiler 14:54:22 So... tempting 14:54:26 But I won't. 14:59:51 oklopol: anyway it's a good book, even more nerdyish plotpoints than h2g2 and a fun plot 15:00:30 Doesn't have: 15:00:31 * Save. Every edit is saved immediately. Changes to the file by other programs are loaded automatically. 15:00:34 well that's an interesting feature :P 15:00:36 ctrl-a delete 15:00:37 oops! 15:00:44 i guess if you use version control religiously 15:00:53 would be cool if every change was saved and ctrl+s just did a vcs commit 15:01:58 " * A jump-to-line dialog box. 15:01:58 * A find dialog box. 15:01:58 * In fact, does not have any dialog boxes." 15:02:29 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:06:29 Grr, another app available everywhere except Android 15:27:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:29:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:31:04 so, ridiculous idea 15:31:13 audio compression using lagrange interpolation! 15:31:28 we cut out every N samples, and use lagrange interolation to fix it 15:31:30 plus stuff 15:42:58 dammit, now i have an urge to write an editor 15:43:42 sometimes this happens. 15:47:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:49:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:59:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:00:10 * alise behaves like he has a 200dpi screen 16:01:13 *she 16:01:19 this is confusing :D 16:05:45 you're my new idol, oerjan is out <-- WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH 16:07:28 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:07:36 hey might be temporary, so you should be at your best behavior 16:07:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:07:53 bah, too lazy 16:09:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 16:13:16 -!- alise has joined. 16:13:32 no hinting is weird 16:15:18 well your loss! 16:16:38 A well-hinted Japanese font is an awesome thing. 16:17:02 Bah. I spit at hinting. Why don't we have 300 ppi screens? 16:17:16 Then we wouldn't /need/ hinting. 16:17:21 600 ppi? Then we wouldn't need /antialiasing/. 16:17:44 The iPhone 4 is 326 ppi, so, you know, just make that bigger. 16:18:55 error: failed retrieving file 'ffmpeg-23792-1-x86_64.pkg.tar.xz' from www.mirrorservice.org : Not Found 16:18:56 ... 16:19:03 * alise syncs package dbs 16:19:20 pikhq: So, I am writing an editor! Call me crazy. Please. 16:20:28 You're fucking nuts. 16:20:55 pikhq: why :( 16:23:54 ff there are sequels to A Glorious Dawn 16:24:04 my day has been made 16:26:09 ** Message: pygobject_register_sinkfunc is deprecated (GtkWindow) 16:26:09 ** Message: pygobject_register_sinkfunc is deprecated (GtkInvisible) 16:26:09 ** Message: pygobject_register_sinkfunc is deprecated (GtkObject) 16:26:10 Shut up. 16:27:59 pikhq: I just want to make something I can use instead of Emacs until I reinvent everything :P 16:28:16 I use maybe 5% of Emacs' editing features so I wade through a lot of boilerplate in using it. 16:28:33 Plus I've now become enamoured with the idea that all changes are saved immediately, and Ctrl-S does a *VCS commit*. 16:31:10 vim for the vim 16:31:24 no need to make another editor 16:31:33 olsner: My editing style is nothing like vi's. 16:31:44 There /are/ differences between people's editing styles. 16:31:57 Some people are emacsers, some people are viers, some people are acmers, some people are samers, some people are geditors. 16:32:01 I'm an alise-editorer. 16:32:13 using vi kind of requires that you forget everything you think you know about editing and relearn the vi way 16:32:27 yes, and that way really doesn't sit well with the way i /think/ about code 16:32:59 maybe, or perhaps you just don't think like that because you're not using an editor like that 16:33:18 I used vim for a while. Went through vimtutor and all, sawed off my cursor keys (not really). 16:33:31 I'm happy with the way I think about code and edit it. Is there something wrong with a person who doesn't use vim? :) 16:33:55 of course there is, not using vim for starters 16:34:05 i am no longer listening to you :-) 16:34:11 :) 16:34:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 16:35:03 olsner: Considering the idea of "cursor key acceleration (a la mouse acceleration)" seriously just popped into my head, pretty sure I'm /not/ a vi user. 16:35:35 well you _could_ accelerate all key repeats... 16:35:53 perhaps, i don't repeat many keys often though 16:35:54 other than cursors 16:36:09 and it would exasperate the problem of accidental repeats 16:36:24 oerjan: i mean far more extreme accel though 16:36:34 nah, just accelerate backspace too >:D 16:36:35 my basic point is: how happy you are now says nothing about how happy you *could* be after taking time to be proficient in another way of working 16:36:56 like it starts out moving one line per N, then in 1/4 seconds is moving up 3 lines per N, then in 1/2 seconds is moving up 5 lines per N, after 1 second 8 lines per N 16:37:05 oh, also backspace, yeah 16:37:11 but with characters 16:37:31 olsner: I have tried a great, great many editors. 16:37:32 i think your fibonacci is missing a term 16:37:39 olsner: I jived more with acme than I did with vim. 16:37:48 oerjan: wasn't going for fibonacci, but cooool :D 16:38:01 fibonacci as natural acceleration 16:38:38 * alise tries to remember what (Delta fib(n)) simplifies to 16:38:55 phi? 16:38:59 fib(n-2) 16:39:20 no, Delta fib(n) = fib(n+1) - fib(n) 16:39:34 fib(n-1) then 16:40:14 well it's (fib(n) + fib(n-1)) + (fib(n-1) + fib(n-2)) 16:40:33 wolfram alpha says it's fib(n) - fib(n-2), but that's obvious 16:40:46 O_o what 16:40:52 err, or is it 16:40:53 no it's not 16:40:55 i'm so confused 16:40:59 lemme take this step by step 16:41:00 fib(n+1) - fib(n) = fib(n-1) 16:41:04 reduces to 16:41:05 fib(n) + 2fib(n-1) + fib(n-2) 16:41:09 reduces to 16:41:36 fib(n-1) + fib(n-2) + 2(fib(n-2) + fib(n-3)) + fib(n-3) + fib(n-4) 16:41:41 oerjan: yeah but wolfram alpha isn't correlating that 16:41:44 so i'm really confused 16:42:00 fib(n-1) + 3fib(n-2) + 3fib(n-3) + fib(n-4) 16:42:14 you substitute _just_ the fib(n+1) into the recursion. sheesh. 16:42:20 oerjan: err right 16:42:46 fib(n+1) - fib(n) = fib(n) + fib(n-1) - fib(n-1) - fib(n-2) 16:42:50 = fib(n) - fib(n-2) 16:43:00 fib(n) = fib(n+1) + fib(n-2) 16:43:06 ergo fib(n) - fib(n-2) = fib(n+1) which is obvious but 16:43:08 why didn't W|A get that? 16:44:17 oerjan: ok so we have that fibonacci grows according to fibonacci 16:44:25 which would seem to give a nice acceleration ... property 16:44:46 so wait, the finite integral of fib(n) is fib(n+1), that's cool. 16:46:35 0/1 1/16 1/8 1/4 1/2 1/1 2/1 4/1 8/1 16:46:35 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 16:46:39 that's actually an awesome acceleration pattern 16:47:51 assuming that we start with 1, ofc 16:47:55 0 lines per interval would be useless 16:48:49 alise: fib(n) = fib(n+1) + fib(n-2) surely you want n-1 not n+1 16:49:10 oops 16:49:11 yeah 16:49:16 so we have 16:49:38 Delta^n fib(m) = fib(m-n) 16:49:44 ...undelta^n fib(m) = fib(m+n) 16:49:49 *Undelta 16:50:12 dunno about you but that seems like a pretty cool acceleratory property to me 16:52:24 oerjan: has anyone used fibonacci as a nice acceleration sequence in this way before, do you know? 16:52:44 no idea 16:53:34 i just sucked an icecube and it popped 16:53:39 weirdest thing. 16:53:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:58:44 oh, awesome, yaedit has a prefix option 17:02:39 Doesn't have: - An option to set the bloody tab size and screw up your indenting. Tabs are 8 spaces, get over it. 17:02:42 o_O 17:05:09 Deewiant: yeah it's a silly opinion but even ais523 holds it religiously 17:05:25 (that 1 tab = indent until mod 8 = 0, or in today's world, indent 8 spaces) 17:05:31 I'm also slightly amused by "- Menus or ugly icons that take up precious screen real-estate." 17:05:37 When coupled with the screenshot 17:05:45 he has, like, the tiniest screen 17:05:53 otoh i have tried it out and with a more reasonable screen size it's alright 17:05:53 Sure 17:05:57 since the left hand side is... the only UI :P 17:06:09 of course it still /sucks/ incorrigibly, why do you think i'm writing an editor? 17:06:25 max undo levels? why do I want max undo levels? is your computer going to run out of memory or something? 17:06:31 It's just that he complains about screen real-estate and then has an UI that takes up around 30-40% of his screen :-P 17:06:48 I ... don't think he has a 454x360 screen. 17:06:55 but yeah 17:07:05 Whatever, you know what I meant 17:07:33 * alise does pygtk babysteps 17:07:36 this is easy actually! 17:08:05 i have a feeling save-everything-then-Ctrl+S-does-VCS-commit might be a pain if you're setting other programs on the file, but eh, just disable it if you do that 17:14:55 if anyone's wondering the best code window size at whatever 10pt at 85ppi is, is 640x432 17:14:58 (just the code, nothing else) 17:15:37 it can display... 31.9 lines, or something, should probably round that up, and 88 columns for some reason 17:24:48 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:25:02 wow, gtksourceview themes suck. 17:25:44 -!- 77CAAV6KB has joined. 17:26:33 ok, now i'll do file loading ... then the actual hard part 17:26:56 -!- 77CAAV6KB has changed nick to FireFly. 17:29:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:31:27 "The operations between the begin_user_action() and end_user_action() methods can then be grouped when creating an undo stack." 17:31:28 sweet 17:34:33 -!- MizardX has joined. 17:34:33 anyone have gtk experience? 17:35:30 Don't do it man! 17:35:32 Don't do it! 17:36:05 pikhq: don't do what 17:36:10 don't make the most AWESOME editor ever? 17:36:29 alise: Don't do GTK. 17:36:38 It's an abomination. 17:36:41 pikhq: why not, it's so eaaaaaaaaaaaasy to use in python 17:37:19 pikhq: i'm using it tastefully 17:38:05 pikhq: :( 17:38:08 pikhq: suggest something better 17:39:38 Wxwidgets? FLTK? A hole in the head? 17:40:33 Qt? 17:40:40 pikhq: Ever tried to use wxWidgets? Ever looked at a wxWidgets interface? 17:40:44 I have. 17:41:00 FLTK? Well, sure, point me to the ready-made source widget :-) 17:41:14 Qt is hideously complex to get going and the signals/slots stuff is just living pain if you're trying to get something simple done. 17:41:16 Qt? 17:41:17 http://pyfltk.sourceforge.net/ 17:41:22 pikhq: Really, what's wrong with GTK if it's used simply? 17:41:29 Deewiant: Is that a ready-made source widget? 17:41:35 Maybe 17:41:36 Also, I forgot to mention that FLTK is ugly as hell. 17:41:39 alise: Look at Gobjects. Deeply. 17:41:44 pikhq: Yes. Yes I have. 17:41:51 pikhq: You are already running a GTK program right now. 17:41:55 You already have GObjects on your system. 17:42:00 And it won't even be interfaced into an actual object system. 17:42:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Bye). 17:42:10 I, on the other hand, will be using GObject interfaced to Python's object system; the two blend rather well. 17:42:44 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:42:51 hi zzo38 17:43:04 alise: Yes, I use Conkeror. 17:43:14 This is the *only program* I have with GObjects. 17:43:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:43:57 pikhq: And do GObjects personally affect you while using it? 17:44:06 ... Oh wait. Mlterm. Darnit. 17:44:09 Probably not. And they won't personally affect me while writing it, as I'll see them all as Python objects. 17:44:10 alise: Not at all. 17:44:17 In conclusion, the only thing GObjects damage is our sanity when we look at them, which we're not doing. 17:44:25 Therefore, I will continue to use GTK as it's the easiest thing for this :P 17:44:32 However, the source code is enough to make me want to murder RMS. 17:45:41 Gregor: ../../../gcc-4.5.0/libgcc/config/libbid/bid_decimal_globals.c:47:18: fatal error: fenv.h: No such file or directory 17:45:52 Gregor: This error. How did you make it go away in Microcosm? 17:46:07 * pikhq is trying to build an i386-pc-linux-newlib GCC 17:48:25 Magic. 17:48:47 Clearly. 17:52:01 okay so what ui element should i add first ... hmm 17:52:27 oh, i should make it indent properly first 17:52:51 gtksourceview takes view a bit literally it seems, and doesn't do intelligent autoindentation 17:53:17 Also, why oh why is it using xgcc for a *cross compiler*? 17:55:04 Apparently "make all-gcc" is how you tell it to just make the compiler. XD 17:57:18 Make every GCC, EVER. 17:57:24 All versions, all platforms, all settings. 17:57:43 Themselves compiled with every GCC, EVER. 17:58:28 Ugh no. 17:58:44 pikhq: Why isn't there a library that just works out autoindentation? 18:02:47 pikhq: Furthermore, should I write one? 18:03:30 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 18:07:17 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:10:07 *ugh* 18:10:38 pikhq: Ugh? 18:10:57 WHY IS NEWLIB FAILING SO HARD AT CROSS COMPILATION 18:11:15 a 18:11:50 It is, no joke, trying to build x86_64 assembly for an i386 libc. 18:12:05 pikhq: i suggest you write an indentation library 18:13:05 * pikhq tries with linux32 18:16:03 pikhq: MWAHAHAHA MY EDITOR WILL BE SO AWESOME THAT YOU WILL USE IT AND SUFFER 18:16:18 Argh. Yeah: newlib is "smart". 18:16:37 It's convinced that because you're going linux->linux, it can special case a bunch of stuff. 18:16:56 And so it does stupid stuff. 18:17:11 writing an autoindenter is hard :( 18:17:18 with tabs for indent spaces for align 18:17:31 Fucksit. 18:17:42 I can probably get a uclibc system working now. 18:17:47 pikhq: or CAN you 18:18:20 Yes. 18:18:52 Suggest a feature for my editor so I can tell you why I'm not going to add it! 18:19:01 Multi-file support 18:19:14 GI 18:19:17 Deewiant: Well, it will have that. 18:19:19 GUI, I mean. 18:19:31 alise: You didn't deliver :-/ 18:19:34 pikhq: Well... it'll have widgets ... but very few of them, and you'll rarely click them. :P 18:19:39 Okay, suggest something /slightly/ less fundamental. 18:19:47 Syntax highlighting 18:19:55 alise: Scripting support. 18:20:35 pikhq: Define scripting. 18:20:48 Deewiant: ... be a /little/ bit outlandish, please? :D 18:20:54 Y'know Elisp? 18:21:03 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:21:04 Yes, I do know elisp. 18:21:14 That 18:21:36 alise: Can't think of much else to be honest 18:21:45 Indeed, it will not have scripting support because it'll be so simple that scripting it would be basically pointless, as there isn't anything to script. If there's an actual "big" (big being almost anything in this context) feature you want to add, you can patch the code easily enough. 18:22:11 Deewiant: How about "a save file command"? :P 18:22:21 scripting is overrated 18:22:46 alise: Alright, that 18:22:57 -!- hiato has joined. 18:24:02 Deewiant: I have this disease where I never bother using a VCS because, even with editor support, making a commit is so much of a fuss as opposed to simply not doing it. So, with my editor, I'm moving the goalposts: every change is saved automatically, and the minimal-effort action, Ctrl+S, is "make VCS commit"; it will prompt for a one line summary, which I'll type and press enter, and that'll be it. For files where this is undesirable, it will be disable 18:24:02 able in a few keypresses. 18:24:31 IOW you will have that, just not by default 18:24:34 This way, I can just type and then invoke e.g. "git diff" to see what I've changed so far, making a commit will be as instinctual and automatic as saving is now, with no extra effort, and I'll have a nicely fine-grained revision history. 18:24:44 Deewiant: Well, yes. But that's just for editing /etc files. :P 18:24:48 And it won't be in version 0.01. 18:25:37 Deewiant: Or I could be a nazi, and tell you to version /etc and ~/.*. 18:25:42 And not have any save command at all. 18:25:47 But I don't do that, so I won't. :P 18:26:11 So the intended purpose of the editor is /etc, ~/.*, and source code? :-P 18:26:32 Name another purpose? Writing textual works is also included, but you should be versioning them anyway. 18:27:55 Modifying autogenerated files 18:28:12 Well, generally you shouldn't do that. Example of when you would? 18:28:38 I often modify configure scripts and makefiles because that's much easier than figuring out why the autotools/whatever got something wrong 18:28:59 Or I do know why, but that's much easier than changing the generators 18:29:39 Okay, then press whatever keys disable the magic. :P 18:30:18 Ctrl+. A or something (A for Autosave). 18:30:30 Then Ctrl+S would be save, and Ctrl+S on an already-saved file would be VCS commit. 18:30:31 Right; just pointing out that your "be a nazi" option isn't very realistic even if people would agree to that much :-P 18:30:40 Well, I /am/ writing this just for me. :P 18:31:17 alise: Context-sensitive tab completion 18:31:25 You mean smart autoindentation? 18:31:51 Yeah, I'll have that. It's minimalist in fluff, not in text editing features. :P 18:32:01 I'm pretty sure it won't have macros. 18:32:47 No; completion, not indentation 18:32:52 Ah, completion. 18:32:58 Naw, none of that... unless I change my mind. 18:33:08 I'd generally think that if your names are long enough to need completing you have shitty names. 18:33:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:33:26 Same reason I won't have snippet-macros. 18:33:44 brb 18:44:59 I was looking at documentation for CWEB. I was trying to see what features it has. I was specifically looking for the feature to export parts to other files, the @( command does that it is exactly what I was looking for. But in my opinion there is still one feature missing, which is a kind of meta-macros, which can take parameters and output C codes, TeX codes, and other CWEB codes. 18:45:26 yeargh 18:48:25 Like, to add command such as @M defines a meta-macro, and @X does a calculation before compile-time, including checking whether the mode is tangle or weave. 18:48:46 That would make CWEB useful, in my opinion. 18:53:01 If this command were added I might rewrite MegaZeux with CWEB and convert the documention of MegaZeux into TeX. But as it is right now, I cannot do such a thing as that. This way all documentation can be neatly printed with cross-references to the relevent part of the codes, and with automatically for all Forth and Robotic commands, together with the relevent code and also printable in separate section for reference manual 19:04:21 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:05:35 -!- hiato_ has joined. 19:05:56 -!- hiato_ has quit (Client Quit). 19:08:13 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:08:29 -!- coppro has joined. 19:08:33 -!- hiato has joined. 19:09:45 pikhq: can you do me a favor and translate http://mtg-jp.com/eventc/jpnats10/img/preview.jpg ? 19:10:00 coppro: I can try. 19:10:22 thanks 19:11:08 oh, sorry for being rude, I should have said please :) 19:12:22 Awakened Thoughts 2U. Sorcery. Choose one instant or sorcery card from your graveyard, and put it into your hand. 19:12:26 There's the rules text. 19:12:37 I can't make out the flavortext. 19:16:01 ok, thanks 19:17:26 ../../../gcc-4.5.0/libiberty/strsignal.c:554:1: error: conflicting types for ‘psignal’ 19:17:30 * pikhq twitches 19:32:43 * pikhq gets the *distinct* feeling that cross-compiling GCC is not a much-tested feature 19:33:23 Why's that 19:33:30 Erm. Making a GCC cross-compiler 19:33:49 Deewiant: It's so incredibly brittle! 19:33:58 Isn't GCC mostly thus? :-P 19:34:44 -!- ryan__ has joined. 19:37:08 /opt/crosscc/i386-pc-linux-uclibc/i386-pc-linux-uclibc/include/unistd.h:243:21: error: two or more data types in declaration specifiers 19:37:11 Okay, y'know what? 19:37:17 alise, does plan9 support non-bitmap fonts? 19:37:19 GCC can go to hell. 19:37:29 yes 19:37:32 and what about any sort of antialiasing? 19:37:37 what are you trying to create a cross-compiler to? 19:37:45 i386-pc-linux-uclibc 19:38:00 what are you on? 19:38:07 x86_64-pc-linux-gnu 19:38:20 clang is definitely an option 19:38:41 Can it build uClibc and busybox? 19:38:46 Don't know 19:38:51 are they C? 19:38:59 are they heavily laden with GNU extensions? 19:39:18 if the answers are yes and no, then clang should be able to do it; if they're both yes, it's a definitive maybe 19:39:57 They're C and heavily laden with GNU extensions. 19:42:53 back 19:42:56 AnMaster: it can, yes 19:42:58 and antialiasing 19:43:00 no subpixel afaik 19:44:30 Helveticka Smallcapulated. 19:44:36 Gothic Helvetica XD 19:46:20 coppro: so, I'm working on amend -1 19:46:48 Tell me about it when I return (it will be shortly) 19:46:55 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 19:48:18 Longly. 19:49:06 pikhq: do you know of any auto-indentation libraries? :/ 19:49:13 Like, ones that will tell you what string to enter on this indented newline 19:49:16 or how to indent this given line 19:49:18 given its context 19:49:31 -!- wareya has joined. 19:49:41 That's a very language-dependent and tricky problem :-P 19:51:08 * pikhq does not see an easy way to tell clang the *libc* you want it to use 19:51:55 Deewiant: So is syntax highlighting. 19:52:31 I get the feeling I'm going to be the first person to try to build a clang *for* uclibc. 19:52:43 "What string to enter"? 19:52:47 alise: Yes; and most editors have syntax highlighting but not clever indentation 19:52:48 As in, program for you? 19:53:22 * Sgeo_ watches alise bring in the singularity 19:53:36 Sgeo_: no, as in the string of indentation 19:53:39 Deewiant: gedit, kate, emacs, vim, notepad++, ... 19:53:42 Deewiant: every IDE, ever, ... 19:54:01 All even /tolerable/ editors do it. 19:54:05 alise: Are we still talking about indenting with tabs and aligning with spaces? 19:54:12 Deewiant: No, not that particularly. 19:54:23 Just automatically inserting an indent on {, deducing indentation from context, etc. 19:54:25 Okay; because I know of no editor that does that correctly 19:54:31 Deewiant: Emacs does with a very short elisp snippet. 19:54:36 It's nice. But that's just icing on the cake. 19:55:02 What GtkSourceView calls auto-indentation is actually just "repeat the last line's indentation", something I find utterly unusable in the face of actual automatic indentation. 19:55:12 I'm asking if there's a library to do proper automatic indentation. If not, I guess I'll write one. 19:55:32 well ladies and gentleman 19:55:38 (mostly gentleman) 19:55:48 I am now going to prepare to celebrate my country's independence 19:55:54 by getting very very drunk. 19:56:00 CakeProphet: entirely gentleman, unless you follow the coppro theory of total nickname-based gender reassignment. 19:56:08 alise: I do not. 19:56:14 then entirely gentleman. 19:56:15 *gentlemen 19:56:29 hmm sex reassignment too, if he claims i have a vagina in the context of #esoteric 19:56:30 ah. we are a gentleman's club then. 19:56:43 I don't think anyone has sex organs in the context of #esoteric 19:56:46 sukoshi -- who else used to come here and be female? I don't recall. 19:56:47 it's not really part of the protocol. 19:56:50 Wait, isn't Slereah female? 19:56:57 how do you know iamcal isn't female? 19:57:03 whoops 19:57:06 How do you know your mom isn't female 19:57:07 Or am I making an assumption based on the nick? 19:57:08 oklopol: because he's cal henderson, guy at flickr 19:57:14 Sgeo_: french gay guy 19:57:15 Your gender is generally irrelevant in context of #esoteric 19:57:17 yes i forgot whois exist 19:57:18 s 19:57:26 http://www.iamcal.com/ 19:57:41 i think he's one of only two people here with a wikipedia article 19:57:43 oh hai 19:57:52 Sgeo_: not female no 19:57:55 well. I disgressed, but now I must bid everyone good day. I must see how many different vodka concoctions I can invent in a night. 19:57:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cal_Henderson 19:57:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Smith_%28The_Simplest_Universal_Computer_Proof_contest_winner%29 19:58:00 *digressed 19:58:06 CakeProphet: enjoy destroying your liver and losing your higher cognitive function! 19:58:14 iamcal: hi. 19:58:16 There! Now I wrote "Icochash". 19:58:21 alise: I will. immensely.. 19:58:21 iamcal: oklopol thinks you're female 19:58:36 yes 19:58:54 i'm mnaly 19:59:34 Is "mnaly" a word? 19:59:40 Or do you mean "manly"? 19:59:44 a badly spelt one 19:59:45 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/iamcal 20:00:03 those could just be photographs of people who aren't you but share your name 20:00:09 or people pretending you're male to support your conspiracy 20:00:16 /or/, you could actually just be a really manly-looking female. 20:00:27 damn, it's ture 20:00:28 -!- coppro has joined. 20:00:36 it's totally ture, mr. mnaly 20:00:59 My sideburns are nearly connecting under my chin. 20:01:11 They're trying to make up for my otherwise complete lack of facial hair by making a pseudobeard. 20:01:16 * pikhq is *this* close to just murdering every person responsible for modern compilers 20:01:32 pikhq: Please do it. Not the pcc guys though. 20:01:35 pcc is nice. Use pcc. 20:01:38 Do nothing except use pcc. 20:01:50 alise: I am very, very heavily tempted to just use PCC and Newlib. 20:01:52 Have no compiler in your thoughts apart from pcc. Associate the concept of compiler directly with pcc, and cast away any other such associations. 20:02:04 (I'm presuming that Newlib is PCC-buildable) 20:03:28 prolly 20:04:08 They seem like the kind of guys who would care about being sane and reasonable C. 20:04:51 pikhq: What're you trying to do? :P 20:04:58 Gregor: Something awful. 20:05:50 Gregor: I JUST WANT A TOOLCHAIN TO BUILD SMALL BINARIES 20:05:52 :( 20:06:09 Or DO you? 20:09:38 Why do you want to murder everyone? 20:10:36 Whyever not? 20:10:52 Because if you murder someone it is not reversible 20:11:01 I was about to make fun of people who rely too heavily on IDEs "I don't need to know how things get compiled and linked! The IDE takes care of everything" but then realized that that's the case with me and Visual Studio and C# 20:11:24 This is your brain ... this is your brain slowly decaying under the influence of C#. 20:11:32 Chatting in this channel is also irreversible 20:11:34 zzo38: Neither is computation, my good friend! 20:12:12 A lot of things are irreversible 20:12:14 AnMaster: it can, yes <-- do you happen to remember how? 20:12:24 AnMaster: um do you have /n/sources? 20:12:38 or what was it, /n/contrib 20:12:49 no, /n/sources 20:13:04 AnMaster: run "9fs sources" 20:13:24 Just automatically inserting an indent on {, deducing indentation from context, etc. <-- iirc kate does that for C pretty well 20:13:34 as long as your source isn't too much a mess of macros 20:13:35 oh, it can do subpixel, cool 20:13:40 but different fonts, maybe they're just coloured bitmaps 20:13:44 AnMaster: anyway, run "9fs sources" 20:13:44 non-function like ones 20:13:50 then in /n/sources/contrib there's like tons of fonts 20:13:53 grep /font/ http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Contrib_index/index.html 20:14:05 alise, I was primarily thinking about plan9port, figured they would work the same when it came to that 20:14:22 AnMaster: ah, good question 20:14:25 i forget how to configure it 20:14:33 AnMaster: i suggest asking in #plan9. i'll even join to shut uriel up for you 20:14:48 alise, nah. I'll just do some more digging 20:14:55 rather than that 20:14:56 (I'll just mention how I really love using emacs to edit Linux/C++/GTK+ source that prints liberal propaganda.) 20:15:01 AnMaster: #plan9 is a nice channel apart from uriel. 20:15:07 just /ignore uriel and it's a perfectly civilised place 20:15:15 alise, does he have op? 20:15:18 no 20:15:21 hm 20:15:24 alise, meh 20:15:34 alise, if I had my way, it would have been Python 20:15:36 fine, continue wasting your time :P they're very helpful with plan9port questions in my experience 20:15:55 alise, anyway kate can do that "insert tab on { or if or such" for C 20:15:56 AnMaster: but here's a hint 20:15:59 AnMaster: I think the font setting is in ~/lib 20:16:02 ~/lib/profile i think 20:16:03 alise, my experience is that it does it very well 20:16:03 But some people still has other things to do, they can't do so what they want if. Would you like if someone killed you? If you commit suicide is same thiing. And in my opinion you also should not burn books. The biggest problem in the world is the people. But it doesn't mean we should just get rid of it like that. 20:16:18 But there is some TV show about serial killers that kill only other serial killers, if you have kill someone that is one way. 20:16:23 alise, but I expect there are corner cases it messes up on 20:16:31 And there are other complications 20:16:38 * alise boots hda 20:16:44 AnMaster: i'll look for the font settings on plan 9 for you 20:16:46 *boots qemu 20:16:52 But sometimes you have to take the path of the "lesser evil". 20:17:02 alise, yeah it was plan9port I needed it for actually so.. 20:17:10 AnMaster: Fun fact, plan9port is the same code. 20:17:20 alise, yes though it uses the X backend instead 20:17:27 And? 20:17:29 It doesn't. 20:17:31 which might mean this bit is different 20:17:34 It uses drawterm. 20:17:38 alise, which uses X 20:17:41 It's the exact same graphics code, just connected to via X. 20:17:45 AnMaster: But it's /pixels/. 20:17:48 alise, aha 20:17:49 Drawterm is /pixels/. 20:17:51 on that level 20:17:51 right 20:18:08 in ~/lib/profile: 20:18:12 font = /lib/font/bit/pelm/euro.9.font 20:18:18 hm 20:18:55 AnMaster: so maybe look at $PLAN9/lib/profile 20:18:57 and $PLAN9/lib/font 20:19:01 hm 20:31:12 -!- Oranjer has joined. 20:31:52 f = open(self.filename, 'rb+') 20:31:52 f.write(text) 20:31:52 f.truncate() 20:31:52 f.close() 20:31:56 Why would someone do this? 20:33:27 "this" being what exactly? 20:33:35 Use r+ instead of just using w there. 20:33:53 No good reason 20:34:24 How odd. 20:34:29 You wouldn't need the truncate with w, either. 20:34:36 Deewiant: What if you already have self.filename open? 20:34:50 I don't know 20:34:52 Well, you would need the truncate, for other programs writing at the same time, but... 20:34:59 alise, truncating after write? 20:35:04 which language is this 20:35:06 AnMaster: python 20:35:08 hm 20:35:26 I don't know the semantics of multiple programs doing stuff to a file at the same time 20:35:43 Deewiant, "messy" as far as I remember 20:35:55 Yeah, well, this thing is going to write the file on every change. Fuck other programs :P 20:35:56 Presumably 20:35:59 at least if the file changes size 20:36:22 I mean, if two processes mmap a file it is not really an issue 20:36:34 Ooh, I wonder if Python can mmap. 20:36:39 bbl, moving laptop and moving it to ethernet 20:36:48 Of course it can 20:36:51 Indeed, but not as a string. 20:37:57 "Maps length bytes from the file specified by the file descriptor fileno, and returns a mmap object. If length is 0, the maximum length of the map will be the current size of the file when mmap is called." 20:38:00 FIVE BILLION BYTES 20:38:41 If you use mmap for the "file writing" semantics, than other files accessing it should work just fine. 20:39:08 As anything else opening a file will be using the same mmap'd buffer. 20:39:35 ValueError: mmap length is greater than file size 20:39:41 That ... shut up. 20:39:46 Of course, things going through stdio might see an inconsistent view of the file, because of stdio buffering. 20:40:08 But if someone is expecting that to work they should be shot anyways. 20:40:32 * alise looks for Python's "in the background, after N seconds, do this" 20:41:40 Timer(N, do_this).start() 20:41:52 http://docs.python.org/library/sched.html yay 20:41:56 Deewiant: Oh. Which is better? 20:42:07 http://docs.python.org/release/2.6.5/library/threading.html 20:42:10 Dunno 20:42:24 Timer looks simpler 20:45:18 Deewiant: Actually, it seems that just writing the file in full on every single change without a delay is fast enough. 20:45:28 Which is, you know, cool. 20:45:32 That would depend on your machine and the file size :-P 20:45:47 What kind of text files do you edit? 20:45:58 Ginormous ones? 20:46:02 Occasionally 20:46:11 How slow is your computer? :P 20:46:38 My disk is slow enough that writing megabytes every time I type something will be noticeable 20:47:10 It's in the background. 20:47:50 No matter 20:48:44 As anything else opening a file will be using the same mmap'd buffer. <--- what if one opens() and mmaps() but the other only opens() and then uses read()/write()? 20:48:47 -!- ryan__ has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:48:54 and what if one truncates to less than the mmaped size 20:49:47 One of the mouse feet is off :( 20:51:07 12:45:18 Deewiant: Actually, it seems that just writing the file in full on every single change without a delay is fast enough. <-- do this on a SSD using a log based fs? 20:52:07 alise, anyway try that on a large image in gimp. See why it isn't fun to do so 20:52:19 Quite honsetly, it works just fine :P 20:52:21 *honestly 20:52:22 alise, as in, 50 MP panorama or such 20:52:28 GIMP != text editor 20:52:32 alise, well yes 20:52:47 alise, for the special case of text editor I guess it works 20:55:24 http://sprunge.us/AiPR 20:55:35 I have written Icochash now, I tested it it works. 20:55:46 Wow, zzo38 is inventing word processors /and/ forms 20:55:59 But, there is not yet the program to print out the data or to render to HTML or whatever 20:56:50 The http://sprunge.us/AiPR is a very simple example. 20:57:23 But hopefully you can learn how it works a bit from this example? 20:57:26 Soon, zzo38 will have ZZOS. 20:57:37 And it shall be the most bizarre yet amazing thing ever. 20:57:53 zzo38: Please, please make a spreadsheet program. 20:58:00 It will be the world's only batch-mode spreadsheet program. 20:58:06 alise: One day I might make a spreadsheet program. But not right now 20:58:15 alise: :D 21:00:00 alise: I didn't invent a word processor? 21:01:00 Do you think the example code is understandable to you? 21:01:29 zzo38: Icoruma is basically a batch-mode word processor. 21:02:00 alise: OK. Yes it is like that, but Icoruma is like a markup language and programming stuff, and specifically meant for role playing games. 21:02:14 Icoruma is not meant for anything other than role playing games. Icochash is also meant for role playing games. 21:03:51 Something is very wrong with this... hmm. 21:03:59 They are not general purpose programs and therefore do not contain some of the features you might expect in a word processing program, such as selecting different fonts, setting margins, and so on. 21:05:19 alise: What is very wrong? 21:05:33 zzo38: Just my program, but I figured it out. 21:06:03 OK 21:08:01 does anyone know of any algorithms that, when given text A, text B and (line,col) in text A, return the closest thing in text B? 21:08:02 for reloading files 21:09:09 alise: 06:48:41 Wow, someone actually bothered to clean up the video on the DVD release of The Next Generation and then encoded it all with x264 on super-high settings, yielding a 550 MiB-per-episode average. 21:09:15 alise: I am intrigued. 21:09:29 pikhq: By TNG, I mean /every single season/, incidentally. 21:09:35 Want links? 21:09:44 Yes. 21:09:56 I intend to have someone else download it for me. :) 21:10:04 * Sgeo_ would rather stream it 21:10:06 * alise finds you the torrentz.com versions, since they have a list of trackers (making downloads a lot faster). 21:10:37 pikhq: BTW, it's almost 100 GiB for the whole thing. 21:10:42 80 GiB or something. 21:10:49 alise: Terabytes are cheap. 21:11:09 pikhq: Also, the seeders are a bit... preoccupied with other people, so it won't be fast. 21:11:13 Especially given that the guy I'm talking to has uncapped Internet and a 5TB RAID ATM. 21:11:36 * Sgeo_ 's HD is 100GiB 21:11:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 21:11:56 Sgeo_: $80 gets you an order of magnitude increase. 21:12:09 I think I just want a new computer 21:14:53 I have 200 GB hard drive. (It is the smallest one they sold) And only 5% of the capacity is used 21:15:03 http://static.pulse360.com/blob/7e/2f91ba2_ecruzSwipeBids.jpg that does not look like an iPad to me 21:15:11 I don't think iPads have menus like that 21:15:14 I may be mistaken 21:15:46 I don't need iPad 21:17:27 * Sgeo_ wants an Android tablet 21:18:18 * Gregor wants people to quit being so excited by tablets when the form factor sucks :P 21:18:40 Gregor: As opposed to wearable computing, which had a totally hip and usable form factor. 21:18:53 Nope, it's a silly, ridiculous joke. 21:19:02 And if Apple ever makes a wearable computer, I'll have no interest in it. 21:19:16 The form factor, that is. 21:20:24 I don't want any tablet, especially if it doesn't have a physical keyboard built in. Perhaps I would be more likely to buy it if it has Forth. 21:21:09 But even if it doesn't have Forth, it ought to be able that I can put C programs on it without any mess from Apple or whatever 21:24:09 You can write C stuff for Android.. kind of. You'd still need to write some Java, and you couldn't write it on the device itself 21:24:37 It should be simple enough to make a Forth interpreter, though, right? 21:24:42 Fuck this bullshit! 21:24:47 Sgeo_: Yes 21:24:48 There are Python and Ruby and.. thingy interpreters 21:24:52 Gregor: You sure have changed your opinion :P 21:24:55 Writing Forth interpreter is simple 21:25:15 And what does it mean "write C stuf for Android.. kind of"? 21:25:45 alise: I don't think so, it was always silly, just good silly fun. 21:25:50 You can do logic and 3d stuff (I think) in C, but you still need to write some Java 21:25:57 Or other JVM language 21:26:04 Gregor: but you liked it :P 21:26:08 Yes, and? 21:26:09 Why does it have to use JVM? 21:26:13 I also like esoteric programming languages. 21:26:16 Gregor: And you don't now 21:26:30 When did I say I don't like wearable computing? 21:26:34 I lurve wearable computing. 21:26:39 zzo38, because that's what Android does (although strictly, it turns JVM bytecode into Dalvik bytecode, I think) 21:26:43 Okay. 21:27:00 Apple's wearable computer would just be a sleek, thin, ultralight aluminium tshirt and an eye implant. 21:27:04 Sgeo_: What is Dalvik bytecode? 21:27:13 The tshirt would also include integrated gloves. 21:27:14 -!- nooga has joined. 21:27:16 You can write C stuff for Android.. kind of. You'd still need to write some Java, and you couldn't write it on the device itself <-- n900! 21:27:17 doing even the simplest thing in haskell is so fucking tiring 21:27:20 way better :P 21:27:24 cheater99: that's because you suck 21:27:24 http://vimeo.com/12674501 <- he's so awesome 21:27:32 nooga: he's a mormon! 21:27:35 i love this keynote 21:27:35 alise: no, it's because you suck 21:27:40 and i'm distracted. 21:27:48 luby on lails 21:28:19 I tried to do a simple thing in Haskell, ended up doing it in Python. Then again, I have far more Python experience than experience in any other language, so... 21:28:44 Does Android not support native code? 21:28:51 zzo38: yes, but not very well 21:28:59 zzo38, it does, but rather limited what you can interface with it 21:29:14 you have to do the GUI bits in java iirc 21:29:15 Wearable computing with eyetracking-based interfaces. The best thing since sliced bread. 21:29:36 fizzie, like HMDs? 21:29:49 I want an eyetracker to select lines in a file. 21:29:54 brb 21:30:00 HMDs are cool 21:30:06 Is Java like the IO monad, and native code like pure code? 21:30:34 Sgeo_: What is that, is that Haskell? 21:30:36 bad analogy for anything where C is involved 21:30:58 lol 21:31:15 AnMaster: The current NDK has OpenGL ES support from native code, and also something called "libjnigraphics" which is supposed to be an efficient and comfortable way for pushing pixel buffers from native code to be displayed. But still, if you want actual platform-like GUI stuff, that needs to be done in Java. 21:32:12 fizzie, and neither opengl nor "libjnigraphics" presumably includes input drivers for example? 21:32:22 well, driver is wrong word 21:32:23 but meh 21:32:46 Most likely you're going to do some JNI for input, but of course you can probably pretty easily just pass some events onwards to native code. 21:33:01 right 21:33:26 fizzie, and I still can't get a shell, right? 21:33:29 unlike on n900 21:34:03 I don't know how it goes with jailbreakery, but not on a stock phone, no. 21:34:14 wrong 21:36:26 alise, with a full POSIX environment? 21:39:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:40:08 What it needs is a cellular phone model with physical keyboard and command-line-interface, no proprietary hardware/software, one color display inside and one small monochrome display on the outside, the GNU GPL v3, and that any AT command can be entered on the keyboard, and a built-in Forth interpreter, and no useless animations 21:40:38 And ability to provide a USB file system to a computer it is connected to. 21:40:59 zzo38, go design that one 21:41:20 Getting a completely non-proprietary GSM/3G radio stack going might not be completely trivial. 21:41:32 zzo38, also clamshell phones suck 21:41:41 they tend to break in the hinges in my experience 21:42:58 In my opinion it is important to be able to close, to stop accident push any buttons and also to save power by turning off the color display when it is not used. 21:43:27 zzo38, that is why you have some sort of lock 21:43:30 .. 21:43:52 like on my phone, middle button below screen, followed by * 21:43:55 locks/unlocks 21:44:04 that's a non-smartphone 21:44:05 If it doesn't close then where is room for the keyboard? 21:44:24 zzo38, keypad. Anyway n900 has a keyboard you can slide out 21:44:42 Slide-out seems to be more popular than fold-open nowadays. 21:44:51 fizzie, probably breaks less 21:44:54 I guess it's easier to do reliably, yes. 21:45:32 Of course they need touch screen as well (although multitouch is not needed), so that you can dial telephone numbers more easily, and then put the physical QWERTY keyboard for entering more complex stuff or if you do not want to get the display dirty with your fingerprints. 21:45:48 fizzie, the drivers for the GSM/3G stack on your phone, are they binary blobs? 21:45:49 I think slide-out is patented? 21:46:19 All handset manufacturers at least seem to be doing it; patented or not. 21:46:36 It sounds too trivial to be patented to me, but, well... patents. 21:46:38 fizzie, does the n900 come with a pen for the touch screen as well? 21:46:55 fizzie, if so, is it storeable somewhere inside the phone? 21:47:23 AnMaster: There's uncomfortably many binary blobs in the N900, yes. It's still not as bad as it could be, though; lots of drivers have their sources visible too. 21:47:39 fizzie, hm. So upgrading to the last kernel might be non-trivial? 21:47:42 AnMaster: And yes, there is a stylus, which is stored inside the phone. 21:48:26 fizzie, aren't people reverse engineering the binary blobs? 21:48:36 s/ / / 21:48:49 There's probably more interesting things to hack for them to bother. People are such pragmatists. 21:48:57 hah 21:51:05 It's currently based on 2.6.28, but there's probably a pile of patches on top of it. The kernel sources used are somewhat easily available, though, if you want to build a patched/reconfigured one. 21:51:11 In my idea, the touch-screen is only needed for more easily dialing telephone numbers (and also possibly for scrolling), but everything can be done without touch-screen as well. All commands are enterable by keyboard. 21:51:34 fizzie, hm 21:51:54 fizzie, strange it hasn't upgraded to 2.6.30 or newer at least 21:52:10 zzo38, what about games? 21:52:20 zzo38, touch screen could be needed there 21:52:22 AnMaster: the kernel is heavily hacked 21:53:24 The MeeGo 1.0 kernel is based on 2.6.33.3, and you can install that on the N900 if you want. (I doubt it works very well yet, though.) 21:53:39 AnMaster: You can program another program to use touch screen for other stuff (such as games if you write any), but all built-in functions are enterable by keyboard, including some games. 21:54:08 It's called "Day1 Developer Preview" for a reason. 21:54:11 Like, you opened and then to call a phone number, you can enter the AT commands on the keyboard, or you can touch the screen to display the keypad 21:54:22 fizzie, hm 21:54:42 coppro: i hate your police 21:54:46 fizzie, what was the replacement for the n900 line? n9? 21:54:47 (There does not need to be any games built in, what I meant is that you can write games that use only the keyboard, such as Rogue) 21:54:50 or whatever 21:54:55 well ok the police in another city in another province in your country :P 21:55:16 AnMaster: n900 is still latest in its line 21:55:22 AnMaster: There's just rumours (of N9) so far. 21:55:32 fizzie, ah, not more than that. I see 21:55:34 * 03:15, 26 June 2010 Fastily (talk | contribs) deleted "Nokia N9" ‎ (Expired PROD, concern was: Unsourced, unreleased phone) 21:56:13 And N8 is an announced-but-I-think-not-yet-out Symbian^3 phone, which they've said will be the only Symbian^3 N-series device; rest will be MeeGo, and maybe Symbian^4 some day in the far future. 21:57:03 hm 21:57:10 isn't symbian very shitty? 21:57:13 Yes. 21:57:18 It drives programmers to suicide. 21:57:26 Yes. They're trying to unshittify it, but with not much luck so far. 21:57:43 Symbian is, indeed, very ſhitty. 21:57:48 "I will now unshittify this piece of shit!" 21:57:50 how is it in power usage, compared to meego? 21:57:53 "We are left with ... nothing!" 21:57:58 I heard maemo was a bit heavy on power 21:58:14 AnMaster: Better, I'd assume, lacking such heavy things as "a Linux kernel". 21:58:24 MeeGo? 21:58:28 Isn't that that open thing? 21:58:31 alise, hah 21:58:36 MeEgo 21:58:42 Wow, Gregor should sue! 21:58:42 Sgeo_: It's the merging of Nokia's Maemo and Intel's... Moblin, was it? 21:58:46 Moblin, yes. 21:58:50 Mob Linux. 21:59:02 * AnMaster waits for the first freebsd phone 21:59:08 N8 hardware is not too shabby, but nothing too excessive either; 640x360 AMOLED screen, 680 MHz CPU, 256M RAM and so on. It does have a 12-megapixel camera with a real Xenon flash, which I think is pretty rare for a phone. 21:59:29 fizzie, what CPU? 21:59:33 "High-end" phones nowadays seem to be around 1 GHz clockspeeds and half a gig of RAM. 21:59:34 ARM? 21:59:43 They're always ARM. 21:59:49 right 21:59:58 It's some ARM11 or another, maybe one of the OMAP platform chipsets. 22:00:12 fizzie, so, how fast was n900? 22:00:39 600 MHz ARM. 22:00:55 Snapdragon is hawt. 22:00:55 hm 22:01:02 alise, what is that? 22:01:08 The 1GHz ARM platform. 22:01:19 The Snapdragon application processor core, dubbed Scorpion, is Qualcomm's own design and is not based on any ARM core from ARM holdings. It has many features similar to those of the ARM Cortex-A8 core, but has much higher performance for multimedia-related SIMD operations.[1][2] All Snapdragon processors contain the circuitry to decode High-Definition (HD) video at 720p resolution.[3] The GPU is AMD Z430. 22:01:33 I think there's something else at that clockspeed nowadays too. 22:01:37 1GHz ARM. On-chip 720p video decoding. 22:01:53 And remember that an N MHz ARM is better-performing than an N MHz old x86. 22:01:56 (Maybe not new x86s.) 22:02:17 Now, what we need, is Icochash templates for D&D 3.5e games. I can write some but I would like to do collaboration as well of these things 22:02:47 zzo38: You should rewrite your website/gopherhole in Icoruma. You could use that form package to do Chronojournal's forms. 22:02:54 This would be awesome and ridiculous. 22:03:23 alise: It would be completely ridiculous. Icoruma and Icochash is not meant for such things and it probably won't work such well like that. 22:03:31 fizzie: OMAP isn't 1GHz. 22:03:46 (I believe the common term is "gopherspace" not "gopherhole") 22:03:47 zzo38: Well, why not? Icoruma typesets documents pretty well, Icochash seems to just be a form generator. 22:03:53 I know, but gopherhole is a nicer term. :P 22:04:02 fizzie: Oh, wait: "# OMAP4440 - 1+ GHz dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore + PowerVR SGX 540 GPU + C64x+ DSP + ISP (Image Signal Processor)". 22:04:02 alise: OK then use that term if you want to 22:04:05 Recently announced, apparently. 22:04:14 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/BeagleBoard_described.jpg 600MHz ARM -- laptop-like performance! 22:04:15 jeez, learning how to make a hash tree in haskell is difficult. 22:04:37 alise: do you know anything about dependent typing? 22:04:42 cheater99: quite a lot. 22:04:58 i dabble in type theory a lot. 22:05:40 so what can i use dependant typing for 22:05:50 Writing your PhD thesis. 22:06:03 what is a real-world use case 22:06:07 alise: Yes Icoruma can typeset documents and stuff, but it doesn't support external hyperlinks and that kind of stuff.... Icoruma and Icochash are not meant for this stuff. There are good uses for Icoruma and Icochash but they are not meant for general-purpose things like this 22:06:09 alise, only 128 MB? 22:06:35 Icoruma and Icochash are meant only for role playing games. While you can do a few other things with it, it isn't that good for those other kind of things that is other than role playing game. 22:06:39 cheater99: On a more serious note, http://strictlypositive.org/winging-jpgs/ provides some justification and real-world use-cases for IO handling. Really they have many, many applications, but the problem is that there are several issues right now and so at the present time they are research only. 22:07:07 cheater99: They would make languages like Haskell much more expressive in what they accept, and allow more program errors to be caught at runtime. 22:07:18 so like 22:07:21 There's also the mathematical connections in that a dependent type checker is a proof checker, exploited to create constructivist proof systems such as Coq. 22:07:26 alise, at runtime? what about compile time then? 22:07:31 AnMaster: Er, at compile time. 22:07:32 Sorry. 22:07:35 ah right 22:07:35 could different types of exceptions be one use case???\ 22:07:36 carry on 22:07:45 cheater99: Um ... I'm not sure what you mean by that. 22:07:56 i don't either 22:07:58 i'm glad we agree then 22:08:07 Who said this thing? :-) 22:08:58 what do you mean???? 22:09:11 so yeah, i'm looking at your link now 22:09:14 anyways 22:09:24 I presume that if you're agreeing with me that it makes no sense, then you're trying to figure out what some other person meant when they said dependent types would help with that. 22:09:24 do you think dependent typing can make it into haskell? 22:09:31 cheater99: No. Very unlikely. 22:09:40 voices in my head said 22:09:40 It would be a massive language change, and also make redundant many common features. 22:09:44 'shh... ask alise about that' 22:09:54 how do you know about them? 22:09:57 Maybe one day we'll get "Haskell++", the official, dependently-typed successor to Haskell. 22:10:10 cheater99: Um ... I hung out in the wrong places too much (#haskell) and got sucked in to the whirlpool. 22:10:30 Plan11 :D 22:10:36 nooga: hey, that's my project! 22:10:52 sure, i'm extremely curious 22:10:58 cheater99: btw don't worry if winging it stops making sense about half way through 22:10:59 alise, why not plan10? 22:11:01 alise: would adding dependant typing to haskell create backwards compatibility breakage? 22:11:08 cheater99: just hang on there and wait until he starts quoting hamlet 22:11:15 cheater99: not adding it, but there'd be a lot of redundant features then 22:11:20 and it would require major MAJOR restructuring of ghc 22:11:25 which is a HUGE HUGE HUGE, OLD OLD OLD codebase 22:11:33 AnMaster: because plan 11 is plan 9 turned up to 11 22:11:44 alise, why not drop ghc and go with one of the other ones 22:11:53 alise, augh! 22:11:57 AnMaster: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY) 22:12:05 alise, for $$$$$ I could make you one that goes to 12 22:12:46 alise: such as what? 22:12:59 alise: fuck ghc, it's not haskell 22:13:12 maybe we can finally get a GOOD interpreter if people ditch ghc 22:14:58 cheater99, good compiler would be even better? 22:15:31 wow now you're getting out of bounds 22:15:52 cheater99, ? 22:15:59 i just broke my kb 22:16:02 spilled coke on it 22:16:06 Seems to work 22:16:09 cheater99: ghc is one of the finest pieces of software engineering ever 22:16:10 did you spill your seed on it 22:16:10 oh 22:16:11 alise, isn't it coke resistant? 22:16:14 ok coke 22:16:29 alise: the interpreter fucking sucks 22:16:36 alise: and i hadn't even used the compiler yet 22:16:52 cheater99: The compiler is stellar. 22:16:54 umm ghci is just ghc on a command line 22:16:57 it's all a compiler 22:17:01 or is it 22:17:08 anyways 22:17:10 ghci fucking sucks 22:17:16 it doesn't even use readline 22:17:19 so wtf? 22:17:26 Icochash is not really a form generator, it is a bit different. It is meant for things such as D&D character sheets. It can be used to template character sheets, check for changes, do calculations, provide presets for races/classes/spells/feats/skills, etc. 22:17:27 ... 22:17:29 you're retarded 22:17:31 it uses editline 22:17:36 please just shut up 22:18:02 ??????? 22:18:02 GHC is one of the best compilers for a language out there. 22:18:26 While it could be possible to print blank forms with Icochash, it would also be possible to print forms with everything already filled in 22:18:37 what a impudence 22:19:11 hey alise 22:19:16 What do you call a pointless race that covers 2200 miles throughout France? 22:19:52 capitulation race? 22:19:52 tour de australia 22:19:53 I always found it funny that wesnoth has a "--disable-game" configure option 22:19:58 no 22:20:04 cheater99: attempting to get out of france? 22:20:07 no 22:20:09 what 22:20:11 The French. 22:20:16 lololol! 22:20:17 AnMaster: Server, right? 22:20:22 even though it is just --disable-client (for building just the server) it is stilly a funny name for it 22:20:25 cheater99: :D 22:20:31 ...pick their noses and smoke cigarettes like they were gay 22:20:32 pikhq, yes but --disable-client would have been more sensible 22:20:40 True. 22:20:41 nooga: So, Plan 11. 22:20:41 alise: tell me how i can use it ctrl + leftarrow to skip words in ghci neow 22:20:55 cheater99: use a better ghc compile with editline 22:21:04 alise: ....? :D 22:21:05 and make sure editline understands your terminal 22:21:10 nooga: Well, you were interested. 22:21:13 i am 22:21:14 my ghci is from ubuntu 22:21:19 there can be no better ghci 22:21:38 :\ 22:21:45 cheater99: then make sure it knows your terminal 22:21:47 nooga: so ask something :P 22:22:08 alise: it works in vim 22:22:14 * alise tries to get used to the kb 22:22:18 cheater99: jesus christ 22:22:22 cheater99: you don't know shit about terminals 22:22:24 alise: how is it going to be different from 9 ? 22:22:30 alise: well tell me how to do it 22:22:42 alise: just shouting at me won't make me feel better :(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( 22:22:44 cheater99: JFGI 22:22:52 * alise tries to get used to the kb <-- the coke you mean? 22:22:52 NOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo 22:22:58 AnMaster: no, its replacement 22:23:06 i'm not using a kb with coke on its circuitry and keys 22:23:08 alise, it died from coke!? 22:23:12 There's also Apple A4, which is a Cortex-A8-family ARM core at 1 GHz in the iPad, apparently possibly something lower in the iPhone 4. 22:23:14 alise got used to coke after her first week in the red light district 22:23:14 one, eww; two, *kaboom* 22:23:16 alise, clean it out 22:23:20 AnMaster: or just use this one. 22:23:24 alise, hm 22:23:41 alise, also what did you learn from this? 22:23:41 his* 22:23:48 AnMaster: don't spill glasses 22:24:10 alise: so did you wash it 22:24:17 ...--disable-game? 22:24:17 alise, not either of: a) keyboards are shit b) keep coke further away from computer ? 22:24:18 cheater99: no, it's just sitting there 22:24:20 or both 22:24:20 alise: you can make it work perfectly well with a wash. 22:24:30 AnMaster: it may have still worked, i just didn't want to find out. 22:24:32 i'm lazy. 22:24:43 AnMaster: and it's hard to keep my mouth away from my keyboard :P 22:24:52 Well, technically it was before it got in my mouth. 22:24:57 alise, a wash. Try 90° with 500 RPM centrifuge 22:24:58 ;) 22:25:08 KLANG KLANG KLANG BASH WALLOP KABOOM 22:25:12 indeed! 22:25:34 Kling-Klang. 22:25:35 erm 22:25:44 alise, Kling-Klong 22:25:47 Kling-Klang. 22:25:47 hmm 22:25:48 Klingon? 22:25:57 Kraftwerk reference :P 22:25:57 Clogg 22:26:10 alise, meh, you expected me to spot THAT? 22:26:16 i guess i should have said 'a rinse' 22:26:22 AnMaster: No, which is why I said it. 22:26:28 ah thanks I guess 22:26:36 No, why I said the reference :P 22:26:45 yes indeed 22:26:49 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: /quit tiuq\). 22:26:52 that it was a reference 22:26:56 leaden is a pretty cool name for an editor 22:27:01 * AnMaster refuses to hear the other version 22:27:08 AnMaster: ?? 22:27:24 alise, jelly. 22:27:55 Jelly coke would be harder to spill I mean. 22:27:58 that is the solution 22:28:26 Jelly coke. 22:28:27 Right. 22:28:34 One question. 22:28:37 can you patent that or do you need a way to actually produce jelly coke first? 22:28:38 How would you drink it? 22:28:39 THE 11 22:29:00 alise, with a spoon 22:29:03 obviously 22:29:39 alise, as long as it contains the same amount of energy and tastes the same, who cares if you eat it with a spoon or drink it 22:30:37 though if someone wants carbonated jelly that might present a challenge. But I never liked carbonated drinks. Uncarbonated coke (put some sugar in) is nice though 22:30:45 The pinball game I like best is this one: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/jigglebox.png 22:30:58 * alise decides setting his broken editor to edit a test file, not the editor's code, is a good idea 22:31:11 alise: Yes 22:31:16 AnMaster: Put some sugar in coke? It's already 99% sugar :P 22:31:24 I put honey in coke once, that was ... interesting ... 22:31:30 alise, sure but you know about mentos? 22:31:33 or whatever that is called 22:31:37 Yeah. 22:31:41 Diet Coke + Mentos = YouTube video. 22:31:52 alise, sugar has a similar, but somewhat less violent effect 22:32:07 I heard of someone that put Coke + Pepsi together, they thought it would explode but it didn't explode 22:32:18 It should explode from sheer cognitive dissonance. 22:32:21 alise, it lets you get rid of the carbonation without causing youtube video 22:32:34 Anyway, Dr Pepper is clearly the best caramel-coloured drink. 22:32:41 It has a taste finer than any wine! 22:32:48 uh 22:32:54 I prefer water to tell the truth 22:32:55 hm 22:32:56 Some people prefer wine 22:33:01 water isn't caramel-coloured 22:33:02 :P 22:33:02 I prefer water 22:33:13 alise, you could add some food colouring to water 22:33:16 and get it that way 22:33:38 I still maintain that alcoholic drinks don't taste nice at all; evidence: unpopularity of alcohol-free imitation drinks. 22:34:10 There are counterexamples, such as cider, which we can see tastes nice because non-alcoholic cider is very popular. 22:34:21 ;| 22:35:13 the reason that alcohol-free counterparts are unpopular is because if ppl can drink alcoholic drinks, why would they spend their money on non alcoholic drinks 22:35:18 alise, indeed 22:35:27 nooga: because the alcoholic one gets them drunk 22:35:36 correct 22:35:36 seriously, people think alcoholic drinks taste nice because they get them drunk, and the brain creates the association 22:35:39 nooga, why would anyone drink alcohol? 22:35:42 alcoholic drink <=> pleasure 22:35:48 to get drunk ofc 22:36:05 nooga, oh, because of the hangover? 22:36:15 tbh if you want to have an altered state of mind, cannabis would be preferable to alcohol 22:36:34 there is a state than can be called pleasant, before the hangover 22:36:39 alise, so would (pure) LSD I understand. 22:36:47 less side effects on stuff like liver 22:36:53 lsd is awesome 22:36:57 AnMaster: Yes, but it's probably easier to code on weed than LSD. 22:37:02 alise, haha :P 22:37:07 People prefer different kind of these things 22:37:07 And that is, after all, the point! 22:37:20 One way if you want altered state of mind, is, simply, practise. 22:37:35 MEDITATION: It's, like, totally wack. 22:37:35 alise, what, the Balmer peak? 22:37:39 alise, is that the point? 22:37:57 AnMaster: no, the ballmer peak produces perfectly working, but unreadable code 22:38:09 i checked 22:38:11 alise, doesn't it produce windows ME iirc? 22:38:14 whatever the analogue is for weed, it produces utterly incomprehensible, yet stunningly beautiful, elegant code that does nothing useful whatsoever 22:38:17 alise, hm coding on meditation, that might be a nice ide 22:38:19 idea* 22:38:35 I think that would be ... difficult. 22:38:48 it's possible to write code when slightly drunk, but the best ideas come to you when you're *slightly* stoned 22:39:00 alise, and what about LSD? It produces utterly incomprehensible demos that fits in 4 kB and raytraces in realtime? 22:39:08 it does not 22:39:33 hm 22:39:38 it would be awesome if it did! 22:39:50 how can you use a computer when everything is melting? 22:39:55 don't be ridiculous 22:40:02 alise, perhaps not that much lsd? 22:40:09 i'd say it extends you consciousness 22:40:17 * AnMaster never tried it 22:40:23 nooga: I'd say it just alters your state of mind. :P 22:40:27 in a way that's really hard to express in human language 22:40:43 I don't use LSD, never plan to use LSD, don't recomend to other people to use LSD, but I won't stop someone from doing so if they really want to 22:40:44 No, it's easy. The words are "being slightly stoned". 22:40:59 :> 22:41:11 no, no, it was only a single experiment 22:41:14 I use LSD, don't plan to use LSD, recommend to other people to use LSD, and would stop someone from doing so. 22:41:20 i don;t buy this stuff 22:41:24 I don't recommend it either. Just saying that from what I heard it has less side effects than alcohol 22:41:39 that is probably true 22:41:46 Well, I don't drink alcoholic either 22:41:55 And I don't plan to drink alcoholic 22:42:09 I SMOKE EVIL CIGARETTES 22:42:10 STUPID FUCKING GTKSOURCEVIEW 22:42:23 alise, why on earth are you using that... 22:42:26 and i'm radioactive 22:42:35 AnMaster: because i'm writing an editor 22:42:39 I don't smoke. But I wouldn't like if someone else smoke near me because the smoke affect everyone 22:42:48 alise, and? why gtksourceview for that 22:42:49 okay 22:43:00 AnMaster: because pygtk is really easy when it's not breaking for no apparent reason 22:43:04 and when it does that's gtk's fault :P 22:43:05 alise, hah 22:43:21 i don't exhale the smoke in other ppl general direction 22:43:25 i find it mean 22:43:26 alise, so you are like import randall suddenly? ;P 22:43:37 AnMaster: that doesn't even make any sense! 22:43:50 nooga, and don't stand just outside doors smoking? 22:43:58 You shouldn't smoke when you are near other people that tell you to stop smoking. If you want to smoke anyways go elsewhere 22:44:12 ofc, ppl would have to walk through the cloud 22:44:17 Or, better, don't smoke at all 22:44:20 it's unpleasant even for smokers 22:44:21 nooga, that is the worst bit I can tell you. I have asthma so smokers just outside the university entrance are a pita 22:44:40 ;| 22:44:51 yeah, better stop smoking 22:44:57 can be hard I'm told 22:45:10 it's not like heroin 22:45:14 but hell 22:45:47 have fun with your cancer later on 22:45:57 hmm can you vaporise tobacco like cannabis? 22:45:58 well :D 22:46:00 that would be ... strange 22:46:08 and unpleasant 22:46:20 no, there is something called e-cigarette 22:46:32 What is e-cigarette? 22:46:36 oh yeah that thing 22:46:41 and it vaporizes some solution of nicotin and flavour oils 22:46:58 and it's, most probably, harmless 22:47:29 also the 'smoke' smells good and it's not irritating to the environment 22:47:55 but i don't like it ;| 22:50:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:54:18 woot! 22:54:21 leaden can edit text reliably 22:54:42 cigarette smoke smells good 22:55:06 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:55:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:55:35 alise: what kind of editor are you writing? 22:55:48 nooga: a code editor, and something basically unlike anything else. 22:55:55 a more specific question may get a more specific answer :) 22:56:32 for what language? 22:56:52 anything gtksourceview supports, but mainly the usual suspects: c, python, haskell 22:57:06 the syntax highlighting and basic editor controls are provided by gtksourceview; the rest is me. 22:57:17 (basic editing controls doesn't mean i won't add my own, ofc) 22:57:31 i'm going to have to code the indentation logic myself since gtksourceview can't do it 22:57:58 right now it opens, displays a hardcoded file, and automatically saves every single change to disk, and automatically reads any change made by another program 22:58:14 it has unlimited undo, scrolls, you can resize the window, it copies the last line's indent, and it highlights 22:58:21 that's it so far 22:58:22 alise, does it have undo tree 22:58:30 so if you undo, then do something new 22:58:37 can you go back to the undone version 22:58:44 AnMaster: no; remember, vcs commits replace saves 22:58:54 so just pressing Ctrl+S can help your undo tree endeavours 22:58:55 alise, tree undo is still very nice 22:58:58 with a sufficiently advanced VCS 22:59:05 AnMaster: well, i'll consider it, but i have undo done for me atm :))) 22:59:24 and if vcs commits are so easy i think they'll become instinctive enough that you don't need tree undo 22:59:32 general undo graph 22:59:36 iirc both emacs and vim can have tree undo 22:59:41 * alise is editing leaden with itself, that's so daring 22:59:46 oklopol, that sounds awesome yet impractical 22:59:47 AnMaster: with emacs it's an elisp extension though 22:59:58 alise, probably. But then a lot of emacs is ! 23:00:04 actually it's hideously irresponsible to edit this with the save-on-every-change feature when it doesn't also have the trivial-version-control feature 23:00:06 i'm not sure what it means 23:00:11 but it has unlimited undo (quite literally) 23:00:13 so eh, who cares 23:00:27 alise, which VCS? I suggest darcs! 23:00:43 AnMaster: it'll probably support many (and decide which to use by seeing which has a directory nearby) 23:00:49 hm 23:00:54 i use git right now, so that'll probably get in first 23:01:04 alise, what will it do if it sees both .hg, .git, .bzr and .svn? 23:01:06 err 23:01:09 s/both/all of/ 23:01:11 AnMaster: yell at you 23:01:21 alise, nice. Will it use audio? 23:01:25 hm 23:01:28 * AnMaster tests something 23:02:00 maybe it'll use a kernel exploit to take control of your whole system, replace the whole screen with an epileptic-flashing goatse, and blast white noise through your speakers while beeping your pc speaker if you have one 23:02:02 arvid@tux ~/test $ hg init . 23:02:02 arvid@tux ~/test $ bzr init . 23:02:04 hg add . 23:02:06 bzr add . 23:02:07 :D 23:02:12 or, maybe it'll just say "You suck at version control; disabling auto-save mode." 23:02:47 adding .hg/store/data/.bzr 23:02:48 wow 23:03:12 AnMaster: i once added a repository's .git to the repository 23:03:14 was ... confusing 23:03:20 alise, heh 23:03:32 alise, him this doesn't ever become a stable loop 23:03:38 I wonder if one could manufacture a stable loop 23:03:39 aw! my cursor synchronisation isn't working 23:03:43 i have this feature, you see 23:03:49 alise, ^ 23:03:50 when someone else modifies the file from underneath you 23:03:56 it'll keep your cursor as close as possible to where it was 23:04:03 well, not textually, not that advanced 23:04:06 but same offset from start of file 23:04:07 alise, could one manufacture a stable loop out of two VCS 23:04:09 so you should be in the same sort of vicinity 23:04:11 AnMaster: no :P 23:04:33 it's ... quite liberating to not have to press save 23:04:33 alise, you couldn't do it by normal means, but if one allows some sort of compression like "same as that other file" then it should be possible 23:04:35 kinda weird, though 23:04:36 to manually do it 23:04:39 i keep trying to hit ctrl+s instinctively 23:05:01 alise, now I feel an urge for a vcs quine! 23:05:04 like the zip one 23:05:07 but with vcs 23:05:08 somehow 23:05:10 like 23:05:25 it contains a dir r, which contains a repo without a working tree 23:05:25 oh, i see 23:05:29 when you get a working tree 23:05:31 it's keeping the position, but scrolling up, bizarrely 23:05:43 it would contain a directory r 23:05:45 and so on 23:05:46 git repo where you can check out a git repo containing the first git repo? nice :) 23:05:55 olsner, git or some other one 23:06:10 olsner, doesn't really matter which one. It is awesome with any 23:06:15 yeah 23:06:33 obviously you can't have working trees all the way down 23:07:28 wish i could set line height 23:07:34 needs to be a bit bigger to be comfortable 23:08:14 alise, are you using monospace? 23:08:21 hmm, the scrolled view is still resetting 23:08:22 how queer 23:08:25 AnMaster: yes 23:08:33 that concession to the past, at least, is made :P 23:08:54 alise, um, most source would be annoying to edit without monospace 23:08:59 sure there is apple script but meh 23:09:04 that doesn't really count 23:09:07 it is so weird anyway 23:09:09 Yeah, but it's not like I'm not already breaking 100 conventions here :P 23:09:22 with elastic tabstops you could easily use proportional 23:09:32 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:09:32 and smalltalk uses proportional :P 23:09:37 alise, and no one else could easily edit the code 23:09:52 erm, they serialise to regular tabs afaik 23:09:56 ah okay 23:10:02 guess it works then 23:10:17 alise, also I doubt every smalltalk does that 23:10:24 alise, isn't there one that uses files for the source 23:10:25 and such 23:10:25 every smalltalk derived from the original 23:10:35 yeah, but gnu smalltalk is smalltalk-the-language, not smalltalk-the-smalltalk 23:10:40 true 23:10:51 code looks quite nice in Droid Serif 12... 23:10:53 you got me experimenting :P 23:10:59 alise, talk? 23:11:02 alise, argh 23:11:06 forget I said anything 23:11:08 don't talk small, talk big 23:11:24 alise, there totally needs to be an esolang called bigtalk 23:11:39 bigchat 23:12:05 paradigm: message-passing messages 23:12:07 the only things are messages 23:12:11 messages pass messages to other messages 23:12:37 god leaden is like the best text editor ever already 23:12:44 even though you have to edit the source code to open a different file 23:12:56 hm 23:12:56 and it only supports python highlighting 23:13:00 and doesn't autoindent, and has no ui 23:13:14 self.scrolled_view.set_hadjustment(hadjustment) 23:13:14 self.scrolled_view.set_vadjustment(vadjustment) 23:13:16 alise, does it do IRC? 23:13:16 why isn't this working... 23:13:20 AnMaster: no, and it never will :P 23:13:26 alise, printf() debug those 23:13:44 alise, you know, I might actually make a fork just to do that if it gets anywhere 23:13:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:13:46 *might* 23:13:58 just to annoy you 23:14:07 no printf in python :P 23:14:15 alise, well print then 23:14:21 but printf debugging is a specific term 23:14:28 yes :P 23:14:38 which applies to languages where it is called something else 23:14:56 alise, I would say printf debugging for erlang too. even though technically it would be erlang:display or io:format 23:15:29 in this semester i was teaching C 23:15:41 bbl 23:15:51 and what i noticed is that students don't get the idea of pointers and structures and stuff 23:16:26 somehow they're weak at visualising this stuff 23:16:32 wtf, evrything points to it working 23:16:39 *everything 23:18:04 you're not looking hard enough for errors, obviously 23:18:09 and i thought it would be cool to write an interpreter of reasonable subset of C together with nice, small IDE that would visualize the execution process, evaluation of expressions and all this stuff 23:18:32 olsner: i've looked pretty damn hard 23:18:34 i think this is gtk being wonky 23:19:01 it would highlight fragments of code in runtime and show objects in memory as boxes connected with pointers (arrows) 23:19:09 http://pastie.org/1030513.txt?key=60u3wyfrcl5be6yl2ie4g ;; it's in read_file; the two print statements show that the scrollbar is being restored correctly, yet it is still scrolled to the top of the window 23:19:11 this makes no sense 23:19:13 and everything would be interactive and easy to use 23:19:21 but i'm too lazy to wrote such thing 23:19:24 write* 23:19:28 ah, wait, the editor thing does its own scrolling too 23:19:30 maybe that'll fuck it up 23:19:50 oh no 23:19:56 nazi python 23:20:44 find me something easier for this 23:21:20 AFAIR dealing with gtk in ruby wasn't pleasant :| 23:21:47 -!- SgeoN1 has joined. 23:22:14 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 23:27:54 back in ~20-30mins 23:32:47 and what i noticed is that students don't get the idea of pointers and structures and stuff 23:32:48 somehow they're weak at visualising this stuff 23:32:49 possibly 23:33:12 the C teacher I had spent a lot of time on it drawing on the whiteboard. I knew C since before of course 23:33:24 so I thought it was maybe too much 23:33:26 I don't know 23:33:38 it's trivial if you just start with the actual low-level memory stuff rather than attempt to fluff it up with boxes and arrows 23:34:51 olsner, you knew it was going to be boxes and arrows? rather than circles and arrows for example? 23:35:14 always boxes, you need to put stuff in them later on 23:35:22 you put stuff in boxes, not in circles 23:35:30 olsner, but you put stuff in circles in state diagrams! 23:35:44 no, those circles are merely labeled 23:35:49 hm good point 23:42:14 so it would provide 2 views 23:42:23 for comparison 23:44:09 nooga, ? 23:44:40 nooga, what are you talking about? 23:47:02 http://www.vgtv.no/?id=31144 :D 23:49:26 olsner, I can't parse the Norwegian 23:49:35 what is "vannkrig" 23:49:39 vattenkrig 23:49:41 olsner, and why is there a huge black box there 23:49:50 the black box is the video containing the funny 23:49:55 olsner, flash? 23:50:00 probably 23:50:14 * AnMaster looks if he can extract the *.flv 23:51:16 I think you're overdoing it 23:51:28 olsner, they dropped flash for amd64 again 23:51:30 so *shrug* 23:51:41 olsner, there is absolutely nothing I can do 23:51:44 your browser can't run 32-bit plugins on 64-bit? 23:52:03 pretty sure I actually have 32-bit flash on my 64-bit system 23:52:04 olsner, it can't run security risks either. It is too paranoid for that. 23:57:05 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:58:25 -!- nooga has joined. 23:58:30 AnMaster: about my idea of visual debugger for dummies 23:59:22 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:59:51 nooga, ?? 23:59:59 nooga, what idea is this? 2010-07-05: 00:01:12 i described it few minutes ago 00:01:25 nooga, which lines 00:02:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:02:01 oh up there 00:02:04 nooga, meh 00:02:15 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.07.04 15:18:09 00:02:27 nooga, two views how? 00:02:33 nooga, I don't get that 00:02:53 it would show how memory looks in two ways 00:03:10 one - 1d array of addressed cells 00:03:20 and second - boxes with arrows 00:03:23 uhu 00:03:32 nooga, and what if I pass you a void* ? 00:03:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:03:47 ah, details details ;f 00:03:59 maybe a dot? :D 00:04:04 nooga, or what if I pass you a intptr_t 00:04:24 that one can reasonably be expected to not be quite what it seems like 00:04:35 nooga, oh also function pointers should be fun 00:04:44 eh 00:04:57 this would be for basic education 00:05:08 they don't have a clue that function pointers exist :D 00:05:21 nooga, qsort() ? 00:05:31 meh 00:05:37 no qsort 00:05:42 not C then 00:05:54 that is what ISO says 00:06:06 i was talking about simple subset of C that has structures and pointers 00:06:11 I see 00:06:12 and functions 00:06:16 and some basic types 00:06:20 to explain the idea 00:06:35 nooga, *((float*)&myint) 00:07:10 (note: this is a bad idea in general, use unions and rely on a slightly more reliable non-standard conforming behaviour 00:07:19 ) 00:07:34 at least that way the alias analysis won't end up all confused 00:08:03 uh 00:08:12 right 00:09:17 nooga, C without all these kind of strange corners and hacks would be no fun at all 00:10:03 if they get the general idea they are able to understand these hacks in the real C 00:11:26 nooga, whiteboard. Try it. I think it worked on the other students 00:12:33 but i would like to give them a toy so that they would be able to experiment at home 00:13:10 nooga, wget gcc? 00:13:11 ;P 00:13:28 nooga, also if they are using windows shit: every university seems to have MSDNAA 00:13:29 -_- 00:13:58 heck I have MSDNAA through university 00:13:59 yeah 00:14:19 but neither gcc nor msvc EXPLAIN what happens during the execution 00:14:51 nooga, gdb! 00:14:57 well 00:15:03 gdb is extremely confusing for newbies 00:15:06 not explains as such 00:15:14 more like can be threatened to tell you 00:15:18 reluctantly 00:15:20 :D 00:15:43 nooga, iirc the msvc debugger was very graphical and such 00:15:55 it is 00:16:00 but it's not enough 00:16:01 :D 00:16:08 nooga, yeah MSVC doesn't do C99 00:16:19 so utter utter fail 00:17:31 * AnMaster ponders multiclassing in nwn 00:18:41 lvl 10 human true neutral fighter. Multiclassing with some class able to cast magic 00:18:42 which one 00:18:43 hm 00:20:37 nwn huh 00:20:42 yeah 00:20:50 nooga, neverwinter nights 00:21:41 yeah, i know 00:21:47 i played that few years ago 00:22:00 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:22:25 nooga, any hints on multiclassing? 00:22:38 nooga, first time I played it 00:23:32 nah, i don't remember anything 00:23:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:32:37 -!- Guest45042 has joined. 00:32:52 Is there anybody in here? 00:33:21 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:33:52 -!- Guest45042 has quit (Client Quit). 00:58:11 http://pastie.org/1030623 00:58:17 this is awesome 00:58:19 happy parsing 00:59:11 lol 00:59:27 pus indeed 01:00:15 actually it was a first test 01:00:26 of my ultimate stupidness machine 01:02:10 indeed 01:05:00 no, actually it's fretty useful atm 01:05:05 pretty* 01:08:48 huge progress was made 01:11:41 you know, a large percentage of figures in books, games, movies and so on, can be nicely put into one of the classical D&D alignments 01:11:56 while very few "real-world" persons can 01:12:09 nooga, alise: ever noticed that? 01:12:29 lol 01:12:52 alise, this means we are rather bad at inventing realistic stories 01:12:55 or that reality is boring 01:13:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:13:02 I suspect both 01:13:09 hah 01:13:21 I think stories are unrealistic for a reason, yeah 01:13:30 wow 01:13:51 but alise is _definitely_ some chaotic alignment 01:14:02 chaotic neutral I think 01:14:02 :D 01:14:35 nooga, you... I couldn't put an alignment on 01:15:18 :F 01:15:39 personally I always liked playing true neutral in games where you can select that. Though that doesn't mean I am true neutral myself 01:15:44 maybe he's ... not human? 01:15:46 whatever ... ;| 01:16:14 olsner, iirc non-sapient beings in D&D are true neutral? 01:16:50 non-human != non-sapient ... but of course D&D includes non-human species anyways, like elves and stuff (right?) 01:17:08 olsner, yes 01:17:15 olsner, and they can have alignment afaik 01:17:20 mmmm... bedtime 01:17:24 c'ya 01:17:47 cya 01:18:02 it is bedtime here too, but I refuse to sleep instead of watching doctor who 01:19:04 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:21:47 nooga is chaotic good 01:21:50 AnMaster is boring preist 01:22:04 *priest 01:22:59 i think most people here are chaotic 01:23:26 priest? 01:23:28 nah :P 01:23:42 ais523 is lawful good, but there's some chaotic in him too... 01:23:44 I am not familiar with these alignments - what am I? 01:23:49 alise, oh yes I agree on that 01:23:51 he's lawful good but not a goody-gooder 01:23:54 olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_&_Dragons%29 01:24:00 {lawful,neutral,chaotic} {good,neutral,evil} 01:24:10 lawful good = obvious 01:24:11 It must be said: lawful good != lawful stupid. 01:24:18 lawful neutral = gray hat 01:24:24 lawful evil = CEO 01:24:36 neutral good = um... this one doesn't make so much sense 01:24:39 neutral = booring 01:24:48 alise, so I'm true neutral then? 01:24:50 :P 01:24:50 neutral evil = legally grey, morally black 01:25:01 chaotic good = oklopol 01:25:12 chaotic neutral = barbarian :P 01:25:19 chaotic evil = the joker 01:25:30 good summary 01:25:35 alise, but you need examples for all 01:25:48 eh, good enough to explain :P 01:25:57 alise, yes but I want an example for neutral evil 01:26:04 it was fun :P 01:26:35 olsner, and I can't classify you, don't know you well enough 01:26:39 Lawful good = Superman, Chaotic good = Batman. 01:26:40 :P 01:26:43 neutral evil is, literally, someone who has a regular respect for the law... could steal if they had a really, really good reason to 01:26:49 but deep down they're evil 01:26:52 it's not a very realistic class 01:27:02 People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships. 01:27:03 pikhq, chaotic good = robin hood 01:27:04 neutral is basically "normal person" 01:27:09 pikhq, I think that one is even better 01:27:10 AnMaster: Another good example. 01:27:15 there aren't many actual altruists who would make sacrifices 01:27:18 I think I'm neutral/lawful good 01:27:19 chaotic is a bad name, really 01:27:28 olsner: you probably aren't good 01:27:35 Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others. 01:27:35 alise, that was nasty ;P 01:27:35 Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master. 01:27:35 People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships. 01:27:47 no 01:27:51 it's just that good is almost never found outside of fiction 01:27:54 the good side of neutral, yes 01:27:54 true 01:27:59 good? ais523 is the only example i've seen 01:28:02 alise, I definitely feel like a true neutral a lot of the time 01:28:04 per those definitions 01:28:09 oh yes 01:28:24 I'm definitely chaotic, I don't really care about the law much at all 01:28:27 I agree ais is definitely lawful good 01:28:33 only what i consider moral 01:28:40 right, maybe rather neutral than good 01:28:40 alise, yes you are chaotic in every sense of the word 01:28:41 I'd like to be chaotic good, but I'm probably chaotic neutral 01:28:49 alise, chaotic neutral *definitely* 01:28:56 you said chaotic good before :P 01:28:59 er no wait 01:29:00 you said neutral 01:29:02 yeah i agree then 01:29:02 alise, yep 01:29:15 i dunno, batman may be closer to chaotic neutral 01:29:18 he can be pretty vicious 01:29:24 alise, or as tv tropes put it: totally unpredictable lunatic 01:29:31 chaotic neutral that is 01:29:35 I'd like to be Chaotic Good, hut I'm more Lawful Neutral 01:29:36 also the adam west batman was ... not chaotic 01:29:52 adam west? 01:29:53 Well, maybe "like to be" is the wrong phrase 01:29:55 AnMaster: I think I lean towards the good side, though 01:30:01 I don't ever try to hurt someone 01:30:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28TV_series%29 01:30:07 the thing that made batman famous 01:30:12 alise, maybe somewhat 01:30:17 http://www.thedarkknight.matthewclose.co.uk/AdamwestBatman.jpg 01:30:23 * 01:30:28 ADAM WEST 01:30:36 Slereah highlights 'adam west' 01:30:57 alise, XD 01:30:57 alise: Sadly, "ham" is not an alignment. 01:31:04 pikhq: wat. 01:31:04 I think about Batman all day long 01:31:04 pikhq, wut? 01:31:12 Slereah: What about the night???? 01:31:26 alise, so what is your alignment? 01:31:28 I dream of Batman. 01:31:29 err 01:31:30 Slereah, ^ 01:31:34 damn tab 01:31:34 wow, TeX syntax is very unsuited to keyword arguments 01:31:46 Slereah is ... hmm 01:31:55 I'M BATMAN 01:32:00 alise, oerjan is chaotic I think 01:32:00 Can't say for sure 01:32:06 Slereah doesn't seem chaotic, not really 01:32:13 he might be a dirty pirate but... 01:32:20 neutral, I guess 01:32:26 alise, true neutral? 01:32:31 oerjan isn't chaotic, when has oerjan ever broken the law? 01:32:37 he's cackly, yes, but that's just irc :P 01:32:40 alise, oh hm good point. 01:32:47 i'd call oerjan another true neutral 01:32:51 alise, like me? 01:32:54 "In the Complete Scoundrel sourcebook Batman, Dick Tracy and Indiana Jones are cited as examples of lawful good characters." 01:32:59 clearly an adam west watcher 01:33:03 http://i26.tinypic.com/t7iujq.jpg 01:33:12 alise, yet you said true neutral was boring. You never considered oerjan boring? 01:33:17 AnMaster: well no 01:33:22 but, edgecases 01:33:25 "Examples of Neutral Good characters include Zorro, and Spider-Man." 01:33:30 spider-man is less lawful than batman? 01:33:32 this page is an abomination 01:34:02 Batman is of every alignment 01:34:03 http://i26.tinypic.com/t7iujq.jpg <- hah 01:35:06 moriarty is badass 01:35:42 "Who else would kick a man for eating ice cream?" XD 01:36:00 heh 01:36:24 "Lara Croft, Lucy Westenra from Dracula and Han Solo in his early Star Wars appearance are neutral." 01:36:46 I agree about Han Solo in the first half of the first movie 01:36:51 (produced that is) 01:37:26 alise, he is a mercenary basically. They tend to be neutral, possibly even true neutral 01:37:39 maybe lawful neutral *shrug* 01:37:47 chaotic evil is awesome 01:38:02 alise, too destructive for my taste 01:38:09 chaotic good is a bit rubbish, it's just antihero 01:38:12 and antihero is way too overdone 01:38:12 alise, neutral evil however is awesome 01:38:13 by now 01:38:17 Here, have this handy map : http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Divers9/The_Planescape_Multiverse_by_zen79.jpg 01:38:19 AnMaster: yeah, but chaotic evil is the Joker 01:38:22 chaotic evil destroys the universe 01:38:28 alise, chaotic good is hero as well. Robin Hood for example 01:38:44 well true 01:39:02 alise, I would say anti-hero is in some neutral 01:39:07 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Detective-33-Bat.png "...Literally!" 01:41:47 oh god, I found "dungeons and lolcats" when googling -_- 01:42:01 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/77/Batbed.png <-- not homoerotic whatsoever. Nope. 01:42:09 AnMaster : link 01:42:27 Slereah, it isn't even very good 01:42:31 Every adoptive parent sleep with their orphans, doncha know? 01:44:17 Slereah, IMO it is piss poor, but see http://splinteredportals.com/cat_alignment/ if you are really interested 01:44:56 Lolcats became pisspoor a long time ago. 01:45:04 yes 01:45:11 "LoLcats" 01:45:15 It's not a lolcat, it's a LoLcat 01:45:21 Laugh out loud cats 01:45:25 http://splinteredportals.com/cat_alignment/5_true_neutral.jpg How is that true neutral at all? 01:45:30 alise, exactly 01:45:34 I said it was piss poor 01:47:18 * alise wonders what to add to leaden. Actual UI, perhaps?!?! 01:47:28 Indentation? Oh, the possibilities. 01:48:18 indent.py gets its own file because indentation logic is pretty damn complex. 01:48:39 The question is, how many lines before of context do you need to determine the next line's indentation... 01:48:41 I guess just one. 01:49:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:49:21 this image was good though (not lolcats but still awesome): http://vampjac.com/lj/humor/gygax/multiclassing.jpg 01:49:37 man, that would have made lotr like 50 times better. 01:49:39 alise: omg are you writing your editor in python? 01:49:44 alise, :D 01:50:26 olsner: is that a sin? I don't like Python, but I can't think of anything else that it'd be nice and easy to use gtk from and do stuff like this. 01:50:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 01:50:52 AnMaster: "Fuck Mordor... I have a nuclear bomb and a large swath of open desert. You in?" 01:51:00 XD 01:51:48 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:51:49 AnMaster : Good guy, bad guy, I'm the one with a gun 01:52:46 XD 01:53:21 alise: if you don't like it, I would say that it is indeed might be a sin 01:53:53 olsner: Why did you say it? 01:54:22 because I don't like python either 01:55:51 olsner: how would you write a short little program that uses gtk? 01:57:04 good question... I have only used any substantial amounts of gtk from C 01:59:11 olsner: and, as you know, that is painful 01:59:42 but won't that part be exactly as painful from python, with the added pain of python itself? 01:59:48 alise, C as such is painful 02:00:11 alise, but python's GC is really wtf 02:00:56 alise, so wikipedia is down 02:01:04 AnMaster: gobject 02:01:07 makes c ten times more painful 02:01:12 olsner: no, because python actually has an object system 02:01:21 and pygtk hides gobject inside it 02:02:05 hmm, okay, maybe python is ... appropriate for this case 02:02:39 it's not all that painful as long as you don't try and do anything clever :P 02:06:00 olsner: i basically treat it as a cleaned up pascal that calls namespaces "classes" 02:06:24 and has weird structure initialisation syntax 02:06:39 aha! maybe that's just the problem... trying to be smart in python doesn't work, so you have to keep it down to python's level 02:06:48 Pretty danged weird initialisation syntax. 02:07:27 olsner: precisely 02:07:35 pikhq: yeah, every namespace contains one and only one structure 02:07:42 you initialise the structure by function-calling the namespace 02:07:43 go figure 02:07:55 hmm... very much time for bed now, work starts in <7h 02:08:00 and then functions in the namespace that take the structure can be called with the syntax: 02:08:02 foo.bar() 02:08:03 meaning 02:08:05 I really, really don't get why Python doesn't do TCO. 02:08:07 namespace.bar(foo) 02:08:17 olsner: basically you have to put yourself in guido's shoes 02:08:19 and it works perfectly 02:08:29 python is basically an ffi with control structures :P 02:08:54 in fact, i have only one if statement in my entire editor 02:08:58 and no loops 02:09:07 quite an achievement 02:09:13 Pretty danged weird initialisation syntax. <-- you mean the __init__ ? 02:09:21 AnMaster: ARGH ARGH ARGH 02:09:28 yeah, python code usually ends up quite loopy 02:09:31 I hate Python's use of underscores. 02:09:32 pikhq, or what do you mean? 02:09:41 pikhq, oh agreed 02:09:50 AnMaster: if you treat classes as namespaces with one structure in them 02:09:57 It makes the C code in me feel like there's a lot of almost-guaranteed-to-break magic going on. 02:09:58 then the initialisation syntax makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :P 02:10:01 pikhq, but fuck newlib headers then. I swear I saw a tripple-underscore somewhere there 02:10:05 I think it was in time.h 02:10:07 not sure 02:10:08 pikhq: You have C code in you? 02:10:14 Coder. 02:11:03 * alise writes a very simple python indentation function 02:11:32 * alise continues editing leaden in leaden 02:11:40 i love it already 02:12:01 ah, so it's already the editor equivalent of a self-hosting compiler 02:12:06 nice work 02:12:24 olsner: yeah, it has not a single ui element other than an editor window opened to a preset source file and a scrollbar 02:12:39 that editor (just a gtk sourceview) is set to auto-indent (dumbly; just repeating the last line's indentation), and syntax highlight 02:12:54 it automatically saves the file to disk on every keypress (this is a feature) and automatically reloads the file on any outside change 02:13:01 s/ $// 02:13:12 it has unlimited undo. 02:13:56 but not yet VCS:ed undo? 02:14:06 olsner: the plan is that Ctrl+S is a vcs commit 02:14:15 and saving is completely automatic 02:14:28 rationale: i can never make myself use vcses, but saving is easy, so just make a vcs the save functionality 02:14:31 tada, versioned filesystem 02:14:33 sounds cool :) 02:14:43 anyway, I shall finally go and sleep now 02:14:45 bye 02:20:04 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:23:33 then the initialisation syntax makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :P <-- you mean the __init__ right? 02:23:36 or which part? 02:23:45 if we treat "class Foo(object):" 02:23:48 as defining a namespace Foo 02:23:52 okay... 02:23:54 containing one unnamed structure 02:24:05 (which is how I code python because it lets you treat it as a strange, cleaned-up pascal with nice libraries) 02:24:09 (instead of a godawful language) 02:24:12 then Foo() is a really weird syntax 02:24:14 I'm not sure I agree a class is a namespace. I thought python did modules as namespaces 02:24:17 new Foo.struct, yes 02:24:18 Foo(), no 02:24:23 AnMaster: it's about how you think about it 02:24:29 if you treat python classes as /classes/, it's the worst OOP ever 02:24:40 alise, namespaces don't tend to have a self pointer 02:24:44 if you treat them as namespaces that are also the only way to define structures, and the structure definition is somehow implicit 02:24:46 it all makes more sense 02:24:48 AnMaster: they don't 02:24:55 __init__ is just a special namespace method, given a newly-created structure 02:24:58 (often called "self") 02:25:01 it then sets up this structure 02:25:05 all the rest are just functions taking that structure 02:25:14 usually you call the structure parameter "self" but that's not required 02:25:16 um 02:25:18 there's also some weird sugar 02:25:24 structure.foo() is namespace_of_structure.foo(structure) 02:25:26 how weird is that? 02:25:29 (note: all of this is actually true) 02:25:40 (apart from literally being namespaces) 02:25:42 alise, if you consider it, C++ actually do it something like that too 02:25:47 internally I mean 02:25:52 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:25:53 well yes, but python has it explicit 02:26:02 which lets you just treat it as a really strange language where structures are implicit 02:26:02 alise, yes that is an important difference 02:26:10 haha 02:26:14 it actually works really well, using classes for namespaces 02:26:23 like, it's how you're supposed to do python, rather than actually separating concerns 02:28:00 i /think/ i just wrote a tab handler 02:28:06 File "leaden.py", line 66 02:28:07 if at start of line: 02:28:07 ^ 02:28:07 SyntaxError: invalid syntax 02:28:07 or not 02:28:32 alise, "at start of line" is only valid in "Plain English" I bet 02:28:36 ;P 02:29:29 bbl 02:31:06 Holy Fucking Shit, it WORKS! 02:31:13 what does? 02:32:59 I don't really like everything about Python, but I think the way that classes work is not too bad 02:34:00 the way they work on the C side... 02:34:02 is NASTY 02:34:04 Here is a PNG file of the example Icochash file that I posted before: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/icochash.png 02:34:04 alise, agree? 02:34:13 alise, ever looked at python internals on the C side? 02:34:34 AnMaster: i know a bit about them 02:34:35 zzo38, make it render with tex. will look way nicer 02:34:35 horrid 02:34:36 AnMaster: I certainly didn't. I only programmed some card games in Python, that's about it 02:34:49 AnMaster: render a living form with TeX? 02:34:52 presumably it's computerised 02:34:54 it looks like a webpage to me 02:35:00 rendered in some textual browser or perhaps vonkeror 02:35:02 AnMaster: I might make it render with TeX some day later. It would be nicer for sure 02:35:04 oh 02:35:12 alise, but it looks like a bitmap font 02:35:18 all ugly 02:35:20 AnMaster: well i imagine zzo38 uses a bitmap font. 02:35:23 oh 02:35:24 right 02:35:26 good point 02:35:31 he does use windows after all, windowsers prior to vista tended to 02:35:34 at least at small sizes 02:35:43 alise, windows xp didn't 02:35:44 for me 02:35:45 ever 02:35:46 aww, i broke it 02:35:48 -!- cheater99 has joined. 02:35:54 alise, well, outside cmd.exe 02:35:56 The picture I have is rendered using icochash_img using the default settings. It does support TTF and PostScript fonts as well. 02:36:15 Although I have Windows, I will later have Linux instead 02:36:25 zzo38, tried colinux? 02:36:45 AnMaster: No, but that is irrelevant. When I get a new computer I will put Linux. 02:37:03 zzo38, you know about colinux though? 02:38:05 AnMaster: Yes I know some things about it 02:38:38 When I get new computer I will put Linux and write a Linux distribution. 02:38:51 you could dual boot 02:39:13 AnMaster: No I can't dual boot I have server programs running on my computer 02:39:44 hm 02:40:11 wtf @ this 02:40:47 alise: Yeah, the bitmap font thing was really, really bad with Japanese... 02:40:59 Japanese looks eye-clawingly bad with bitmap fonts. 02:41:25 wtff @ this 02:41:31 who wants to debug my editor, eh, eh! 02:41:37 What editor? 02:41:41 my text editor 02:41:56 Where is the codes? 02:42:01 http://www.wazu.jp/gallery/samples/MSMincho__Japanese.gif See that? 02:42:04 That is *ugly*. 02:43:25 icochash_img just renders the completed forms as .png file, it won't edit the forms. To edit the data on the forms you need to edit the .chs file with a text editor. 02:43:58 Icochash has a similarity to Icoruma in that they both use one file for common functions and then separate files to render and format in different ways. 02:44:15 pikhq: You, you want to debug my text editor! 02:44:52 ...Wait, what the FUCK/ 02:44:54 *FUCK? 02:45:25 ? 02:45:36 There. 02:45:51 There. 02:46:06 pikhq: Okay, I will employ you in happiness if you fix my indentation routines :P 02:46:14 They work, just... not very well. 02:46:45 pikhq, so what did the old 8-bit Japanese games use? 02:47:01 AnMaster: English or *just katakana*. 02:47:17 pikhq, katakana? 02:47:24 katakana is what japanese uses to romanise 02:47:25 like 02:47:29 ah 02:47:30 we romanise stuff and the like 02:47:34 and steal lonewords 02:47:35 Katakana is the syllabary used primarily for foreign words. 02:47:38 what pikhq said 02:47:39 i said it craply 02:48:14 It's also used for emphasis, to note that you're writing out the on'yomi (Chinese reading) of some character, or to sound robotic. 02:48:31 The last part comes because old computers and video game systems only used katakana. 02:49:08 The reason for *this* is because it's the easiest to render on limited graphics. 02:49:48 ...Say, there's no way to keep state in CPP, right? Like, at all? 02:49:49 コレ ハ カタカナ デス。 カンタンニ ヨメル、 ネ? 02:49:52 Just for example 02:49:55 Between macro invocations. Relying on C behaviour is accepted. 02:50:04 Specifically, I'm doing a coroutine/finite state machine thing. 02:50:09 So I need a duff's device thing. 02:50:11 alise: Absolutely none at all. 02:50:13 I want it so that you can write 02:50:15 yield(x) 02:50:16 and it does 02:50:22 state++; return x; case (LAST_CASE_WE_MADE)+1: 02:50:32 pikhq: Then how does that tiny little "threads" library do it? 02:50:40 There are programs that do somewhat similar things as Icochash, such as PCGEN, but other programs have bad designs in my opinion, also Icochash is not quite the same thing, it is a bit different 02:51:16 alise: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutines.html 02:51:16 pikhq: Can you say "case var:"? 02:51:21 pikhq: I know, but that has an extra param. 02:51:33 pikhq: You can say "case var:", can't you? But it'll be the value of var at the start of the switch, right? 02:51:55 No, it doesn't have an extra param. 02:52:00 #define crReturn(i,x) do { state=i; return x; case i:; } while (0) 02:52:02 Yah, so does. 02:52:08 Look further down. 02:52:14 It cheats by using the __LINE__ macro. 02:52:21 alise 02:52:25 are you good with computer games 02:52:28 pikhq: Ah. 02:52:35 What about that thing by the contiki guy? 02:52:39 alise 02:52:39 cheater99: Good as in playing them? 02:52:42 yea 02:52:49 cheater99: No, I'm shit. But I enjoy it. Why? 02:52:59 It works so long as you don't stick multiple crReturns on a line. 02:53:07 i dare you to complete this one: http://www.indiegames.com/features/index.php?c=ex&y=2009&gid=20 02:53:07 alise: Oh, that stuff? 02:53:09 Beats me. 02:53:13 pikhq: Isn't there a __CHAR__? 02:53:21 Maybe. 02:53:21 Also, can you find that thread impl? I've been unable to. 02:54:11 http://www.sics.se/~adam/pt/ 02:54:21 Protothreads, as used in Contiki 02:54:48 -!- AndChat- has joined. 02:56:12 no __CHAR__ :( 02:56:47 #define LC_SET(s) s = __LINE__; case __LINE__: 02:56:47 Sigh! 02:56:58 Oh, you can use labels as values for it too. 02:57:00 Interesting. 02:57:27 -!- AndChat- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:57:38 still uses __LINE__, though 02:58:13 http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/cpp/Standard-Predefined-Macros.html 02:58:15 Nothing more fine-grained. 02:59:28 Anyway. 02:59:29 #define fsm static int _s=0;switch(s){case 0: 02:59:29 #define yield(x) do{state=__LINE__;return(x);case __LINE__:}while(0) 03:02:21 O, so that is how it works. 03:03:15 -!- FireFly has joined. 03:06:44 Now it means it doesn't work if you put yield(x) twice in one line 03:11:19 pikhq: So, I just implemented coroutine-threads in C. 03:11:20 That was... easy. 03:13:38 * Sgeo decides that IRCing on the go may not be that easy 03:14:07 Which was pretty much my main reason for disparaging iOS4. Oh, actually, let me ask someone with experience: alise, can you multitask an IRC client with iOS4? 03:14:34 I haven't used iOS; still on iPhone OS 3. I thought iOS could multitask anything? 03:14:46 What with its high-falutin' high-falutinness. 03:15:03 alise, I thought there were 7 multitask APIs or something? 03:15:15 God knows. 03:15:18 My answer: probably. 03:15:22 My other answer: don't buy an iPhone. 03:15:40 Whenever I mention AT&T, people ask why I didn't just get an iPhone 03:15:43 alise: Low-level tricks do help with that, yeah. 03:16:11 pikhq: Yeah -- low level tricks like static variables and switch. 03:16:21 Sgeo: Well, they're partially right, but not for the reason of an iPhone. 03:16:25 The reason is that AT&T is shit. 03:16:30 Also, stop fucking caring what other people think already. 03:16:52 Which is more likely: That, over time, Android gets an iPhone level of polish, or, that over time, Apple eases up on its nuttiness? 03:17:01 alise, I think I care what you think a bit too much 03:17:06 Apple have been getting more nutty, not less. 03:17:11 Sgeo: You care what others think, too. 03:17:20 At least I try and provide justification to believe what I say :P 03:21:19 http://www.acooke.org/lepl/ ~ from our favourite andrew cooke in the universe 03:21:43 * Sgeo fantasizes about Android with Apple-like polish 03:21:53 Sgeo: there are cracks in the polish. 03:21:58 believe me. i've used it since 2007. 03:22:05 that's three years of using it. 03:22:23 Hm. Such as? 03:22:26 there is a reason i've gone from a devoted apple user to an arch linux user 03:22:42 and it's that one, the polish is mostly superficial: sure, it's pretty and the animations glide, but the user interfaces do not fit together 03:22:57 apple used to do UI design; now they do graphic design, and just avoid even creating a UI 03:23:00 alise: C switch is a low-level trick. :) 03:23:07 yes, Sgeo, when pressing around it will all fade and slide 03:23:14 but it won't be smooth to use, it won't be polished to operate 03:24:04 That's pretty much how I feel about Android's BACK button 03:24:15 Sgeo: the iPhone doesn't have a back button. 03:24:18 feel lucky 03:24:32 No back button may be better than an inconsistant one 03:24:40 so don't press it. 03:25:00 Believe me, the iPhone may be prettier, but the user experience is NOT as polished as you think: and it certainly isn't good enough to support the tyranny. 03:25:19 Android is flawed, but so is the iPhone; Android wins by virtue of the iPhone being run by a megalomaniacal dictator. 03:26:24 It occurs to me that my reasons for using Windows may be similar to a reason to get the iPhone 03:26:39 Except that, in the case of Windows, there were already specific programs that I wanted to run, that put me over the edge 03:26:45 With the iPhone, no such thing 03:27:49 * Sgeo ponders py2exe 03:28:16 "If py2exe fixes a broken program, then that's probably a bug in py2exe that needs to be fixed!" 03:28:33 alise, you can't seriously have off tomorrow, can you? 03:28:48 Sgeo: No; why would you think that? 03:28:56 alise, you're still up. 03:29:00 Oh, shut up. 03:30:38 Ah, crud, py2exe wants to require users to have a dll 03:30:53 I'll go to bed soon, I swear. 03:38:08 http://piratedate.com 03:38:12 something for you alise 03:38:49 what the fuck is that. 03:39:59 pirate date. 03:40:03 you get to date pirates, arrrr! 03:40:09 what. 03:40:15 i need to go to bed, stop talking 03:41:05 yes 03:41:06 yes you do 03:41:09 let's stop talking. 03:41:23 let's let our bodies talk. 03:42:31 ... shut up. 03:44:22 dgfgf 03:47:31 g adfg adfg adfg a 03:47:36 i can't go to fucking sleep 03:47:38 it is impossible 03:59:41 alise: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mysql-dfsg-5.1/+bug/451801 03:59:51 it seems glasgow isn't the only thing that canonic fucked up 03:59:57 SHUT THE FUCK UP I HAVE TO BE UP AT 9:30 04:02:57 why are you not in bed then, little thing? 04:03:21 or maybe you are in a bed? 04:03:28 are you in *my* bed? 04:03:36 * Sgeo slaps cheater99 04:04:46 * alise slaps cheater99. 04:04:50 Talk on Monday. 04:04:52 Bye! 04:04:56 Bye. 04:04:57 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:05:12 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:27:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:33:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 04:49:23 hm 04:52:32 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:53:40 Why don't you play this game instead? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP 04:54:09 Hints: 04:54:35 * Don't just do everything without thinking about it at first, or else you will get stuck 04:55:07 zzo38, what does one play it with on x86_64 linux 04:55:26 zzo38, also did you know linux has a 91% market share? 04:55:31 for supercomputers 04:55:32 AnMaster: If you are willing to compile the source yourself: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/megazeux_src.zip 04:55:51 zzo38, what genre is it 04:56:03 arcade and I skip 04:56:45 If you want compiled binaries: http://vault.digitalmzx.net/show.php?id=1675 (not recomended because of various bugs and missing features) 04:56:57 Genre is just multiple things. It is not a arcade-style game 04:57:07 zzo38, puzzle? that is out too 04:57:13 about all I could like is RPG atm 04:57:42 It does have some puzzles. But it does not consist entirely of puzzles 04:57:49 zzo38, RPG? 04:57:54 No. Sorry. 04:58:02 ah 04:58:05 might look tomorrow 04:58:52 Anyone else? 05:06:13 -!- wareya_ has joined. 05:08:17 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 05:45:40 You cannot win this game without *all* of these hints: 05:45:50 * Save the game state often, and in multiple files. 05:45:57 * Don't just do everything without thinking about it at first, or else you will get stuck 05:46:16 * Don't just shoot everything and everyone, or else you will run out of ammunition and you won't get a very good score 05:47:16 * Pay attention to the game, and perhaps look at the source code for MegaZeux for help about what some objects means? 05:47:53 * Use the money effectively. 05:47:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:48:29 * The goal is to find the purple keys 05:49:18 * Don't run into everything that you can get hurt, or else you will run out of health points 05:50:26 * Some of the puzzles are confusing so please make sure you know what something means! 05:51:14 * At the end of the game you will find BIG_MONSTER 05:51:53 And, then, there is also a sequel to this game but I am not finished making the sequel game yet. 06:09:22 Which game do you prefer, the first one, or the sequel game? 06:24:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:29:05 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:29:26 -!- Halph has joined. 06:29:32 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 06:31:56 -!- augur has joined. 06:37:01 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:44:37 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 06:46:30 -!- coppro has joined. 07:04:31 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:30:40 -!- Vegabondmx has joined. 07:30:41 -!- Vegabondmx has quit (Excess Flood). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:24 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:33:38 -!- nooga has joined. 08:35:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:19:10 -!- choochter has joined. 09:36:21 -!- tombom has joined. 09:41:49 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:46:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:17:40 -!- DH____ has joined. 11:28:31 -!- cheater99 has quit (*.net *.split). 11:28:47 gulp 11:32:16 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:35:02 -!- cheater99 has joined. 11:41:39 -!- nooga has joined. 11:42:24 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:44:45 nooga: plug 11:45:49 socket 11:46:45 tekcos 11:47:13 coteks 11:48:28 .. sketoc 11:52:27 skurnak! 11:56:34 ooh weird 11:56:41 i just had the taste of butane in my mouth 11:59:41 Butane? Isn't that gas in room temperature? 11:59:49 it wasnt real 12:00:00 it was a misinterpretation 12:05:19 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:07:17 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:19:35 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:39:16 -!- MizardX has joined. 13:15:22 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:16:42 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:33:53 -!- choochter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:34:34 -!- choochter has joined. 13:53:29 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.6/20100625231939]). 14:04:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:07:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:14:41 augur, how do you even know the taste of butane? 14:27:02 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 14:28:09 -!- choochter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:28:39 -!- choochter has joined. 14:30:56 -!- choochter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:31:02 -!- choochter has joined. 14:32:54 AnMaster: what most people call taste is really just smell. 14:33:54 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:34:27 -!- DH____ has joined. 15:07:12 -!- teuchter has joined. 15:07:18 -!- choochter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:22:09 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:27:29 -!- relet has joined. 15:35:34 smell doesn't affect taste in any way 15:35:40 for me at least 15:35:55 urban legend, says i 15:45:09 -!- nooga has joined. 16:14:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 16:28:11 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:30:21 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:35:29 -!- nooga has joined. 16:46:31 -!- hiato has joined. 16:52:11 AnMaster: what most people call taste is really just smell. <-- oh so you meant smell then 16:56:12 so 16:56:20 looks like #irp been reddited 16:56:25 *shrug* 16:59:03 the world will never tire of ti 16:59:04 *it 17:02:33 Do you like my game? 17:10:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:10:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.6/20100625231939]). 17:25:23 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:33:45 Do you like my game? Did you try this game? (See previous log for hints) 17:38:36 have you played my games? 17:40:54 is alise holed up for the week again 17:44:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:45:16 cheater99: yes, like the 16 billion previous times you asked 17:45:45 (he sometimes comes on in the evening as ehirdiphone, though) 17:45:55 -!- nooga has joined. 17:46:49 oerjan, what is your alignment? 17:47:00 oerjan, D&D that is 17:47:04 * oerjan notices he's grumpy and should eat something 17:47:56 You can't instantiate "something" with anything. :-> 17:47:57 i noticed y'all seemed to conjecture true neutral... 17:48:55 "something" just means "there is such thing as". Randomly chosen thing probably does not qualify. 17:49:01 i figure it's either that or neutral good. 17:49:20 oerjan, heh 17:50:44 oerjan: i need to be on the edge with that info 17:50:56 Ilari: you fail at grammar forever 17:50:58 oerjan: can you create an rss feed for that please. 17:51:28 oerjan: Yes, I do. :-) 17:52:10 cheater99, your nick? chaotic 17:52:15 chaotic evil* even 17:52:32 cheater99: what info 17:52:42 whether alise is in or out 17:52:59 nah i'm just playin'. you seem a bit uppity so i'm pulling your leg. 17:53:04 i don't know more about alise than anyone else here who's paying attention. 17:53:18 cheater99: i _said_ i was grumpy and needed to eat. 17:53:20 -> 17:53:21 i can't pay attention! 17:53:27 ok enjoy your eat 17:53:29 ttyl 17:57:13 There should be esolang with large collection of operators with seemingly no connection. Also lot of them used together should be required to reach TC. 17:57:40 *munch* 18:01:58 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 18:04:20 i've had that idea a million times 18:04:38 and there's still suffering in the world 18:06:27 well if that's what causes the suffering in the world, i suggest you stop. 18:08:14 i never looked at it that way 18:14:54 a computer-generated set of millions of different commands 18:17:24 well the hard part i would think is making all necessary for TC-ness without them being obviously connected 18:18:34 yes, if you want to do it well 18:18:58 i was more interested in the part where the spec is multiple gigabytes 18:19:05 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:19:32 you know me, i don't care what's inside as long as it's really big 18:19:38 -!- DH____ has joined. 18:21:22 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:21:39 make it fractal 18:21:42 in some way 18:22:10 Good way would be to have multiple flags that affect instructions in odd ways (and have strange interactions). 18:22:12 in some say how exactly? 18:22:48 *way 18:23:18 --use-underlying-field "F_16" 18:23:37 What's F_16? 18:23:50 the finite field with 16 elements 18:24:26 That's trace 2 field... Too ordinary. :-) 18:24:42 trace? you mean characteristic? 18:25:02 Well, what was it called... :-/ 18:28:25 maybe it should be --use-underlying-ring instead. 18:33:27 Maybe field size of 3 486 784 401 would be better? 18:36:56 !haskell logBase 3 3486784401 18:37:05 19.999999999999996 18:38:08 -!- MizardX- has joined. 18:41:01 what's the trace of a field? 18:41:12 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:41:13 sic 18:41:20 Probably means characteristic... 18:41:33 doubt that, maybe i'll check 18:41:37 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 18:42:51 the trace of something is the sum of its conjugates 18:43:54 (i actually did remember it was that but minds are not to be trusted) 18:44:16 * oerjan is familiar with a completely different meaning of the term 18:44:42 (the trace of a square matrix is the sum of its diagonal entries) 18:46:40 (a major property of this trace is that tr(AB) = tr(BA)) 18:48:26 also the sum of conjugates in F_16 would not be called 2 given that 2 = 0 in that field 18:50:53 3 because 2 is too ordinary and 5 (or greater) is too simple. 18:54:47 -!- teuchter has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:57:03 oerjan, I first went "airfield?" at that. Since F-16 = aircraft to me. 18:57:05 XD 19:01:31 lol shouldn't have mentioned my games, i'm hooked on bounca again 19:02:12 oerjan: i thought the trace of an element of a finite field is actually the trace of some matrix 19:02:38 or umm are these traces 0 19:02:56 maybe the guy who told me this was confusing the meanings 19:06:05 anyone wanna add other kinds of polygons to bounca? i hate programming as you know. 19:07:21 not the right irc network if that's the case... 19:09:41 nono i hate programming but i love programmers 19:12:51 hehe, the ball randomly jumps like 10cm from the finish in 16.9 sec, takes like 40 seconds if you actually try to manouver there 19:12:56 i should probably make a new level 19:36:33 my games are so awesome i wish someone else had made them so i wouldn't feel so bad for advertising them. 19:38:11 -!- kar8nga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:48:49 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:54:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.6/20100625231939]). 22:15:18 -!- clog has joined. 22:15:18 -!- clog has joined. 22:16:32 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 22:16:46 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 22:18:12 -!- choochter has joined. 22:29:21 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:31:13 gtg cya 22:31:14 -!- DH____ has left (?). 22:41:36 sup 22:43:25 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:43:49 inf 22:44:13 * oerjan cackles obscurely 22:50:29 really old though 22:50:36 but 22:50:50 at least i finally found a substitution greeting 22:50:58 been trying to find one since our conversation 22:51:02 every time you've joined 22:51:06 so 22:51:06 food, again -> 22:52:08 urgh 22:52:28 hard to do this well, because somehow a function has to become a question 22:57:12 * oerjan wonders what oklopol is babbling about. also, *munch* 22:57:40 * pikhq has been trying to write a cksum program for kicks. 22:57:43 hard to do this well, because somehow a function has to become a question <-- to do what well? 22:57:51 Minor problem: it seems to be borken in ways I cannot tell. 22:57:59 pikhq, no need. the heirloom one compiles for me on microcosm 22:58:05 http://sprunge.us/CaHQ 22:58:11 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 22:58:15 crc_table.h generated with http://sprunge.us/AZXC 22:58:18 ehirdiphone, hi 22:58:19 !swedish This program does not work. 22:58:20 AnMaster: Don't care. 22:58:20 Thees prugrem dues nut vurk. Bork Bork Bork! 22:58:21 Spectral Spectra. 22:58:25 ehirdiphone, #irp was slashdotted 22:58:26 err 22:58:28 reddited 22:58:31 same shit anyway 22:58:35 pikhq: Dont care about what? 22:58:37 " really old though" <<< inf as a response to sup is really old 22:58:41 AnMaster: Indeed. 22:58:44 oh that 22:58:46 I want to write a reasonable cksum program; I don't care that Heirloom has one. 22:58:51 ehirdiphone, as in the end results are about the same 22:58:59 good thing we have a separate channel for it 22:59:00 " at least i finally found a substitution greeting" <<< since we talked about... or was that the only unclear thing? 22:59:35 today i was told i talk too fast 22:59:44 * oerjan has forgotten what we talked about 22:59:48 AnMaster: I had to go into ultra-asshole mode when #esoteric IRP was redditted 22:59:56 *reddited 23:00:05 Hmm. My crc_table appears to differ from what's in the Heirloom cksum binary. 23:00:06 well i would've changed about into something else 23:00:12 if i'd finished the sentence 23:00:13 ehirdiphone, like, worse than usual? 23:00:16 prolly 23:00:24 pikhq: IMO heirloom's flaw is caring way too much about history. 23:00:25 anyway night :) 23:00:34 pikhq, different function? 23:00:36 cheater99: THIS IS AN RSS MESSAGE: ehirdiphone HAS BEEN OBSERVED 23:00:48 *ASS 23:00:48 ehirdiphone: Yes. 23:00:51 hahahaha 23:00:54 AnMaster: I said "ultra". Anyway, I've mellowed. 23:01:03 ehirdiphone, :P 23:01:03 oerjan: just notify the pedo... 23:01:20 AnMaster: I've also been comparing against Busybox's cksum. It *appears* to be the same generating function. 23:01:27 :-D 23:01:27 Give or take stylistic differences. 23:01:44 AnMaster: I even expressed the opinion that everyone edits differently and you just have to find the editor that works for you, yesterday. 23:01:45 ehirdiphone: um you're trying to avoid him? 23:01:58 (Busybox doesn't have a statically-created crc_table) 23:02:01 oerjan: No, it's just that he's a pedo :P 23:02:12 who isn't a pedo these days 23:02:28 Anyways: thoughts? 23:02:33 ehirdiphone: it's just i was joking about how he keeps asking about you, earlier 23:03:07 ehirdiphone: this is so cool, now we can have a double-date with our gay lovers 23:03:14 (and he requested an rss feed :D) 23:03:17 assuming augur still has a thing for me 23:03:28 oerjan: he's concerned my beautiful prepubescent body of spotlessness, hairlessness and innocence will be damaged 23:03:58 damaged by age? 23:04:05 or oh 23:04:16 wait was i gone 23:04:18 oklopol: we could just both date augur, that would be vastly preferable to being in a 1,000 km^2 radius of cheater99 23:04:27 :D 23:04:40 and polyamory is ~all the rage~ 23:04:53 is cheater polyamorous? 23:04:59 or what 23:05:15 hope not, then I have an easy excuse 23:05:28 oklopol: I meant if we both dated augur XD 23:05:33 oh umm oh 23:05:43 i guess i don't know the expression 23:06:17 ugh soon i shall retry 23:06:56 now -> 23:07:55 ... Wait a sec that table's kinda constant. 23:08:02 Screw it I can just copy the damned thing. 23:08:58 alise is angry because she knows she wants me subconsciously 23:10:06 I really don't. 23:10:58 ehirdiphone: nick? 23:11:16 well if you did you wouldn't know it, it's subconscious duh 23:11:18 coppro: Lazy! But okay. 23:11:22 -!- ehirdiphone has changed nick to aliseiphone. 23:11:37 Pronounced: Alih-say-phone 23:11:46 aliseiphone: Sometimes you change it, sometimes you didn't. I just didn't know if you'd noticed 23:12:04 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info). 23:12:26 -!- aliseiphone has joined. 23:12:29 * aliseiphone vaginas 23:12:47 v. the act of gaining a vagina through metaphysical IRC 23:12:55 *IRC magic. 23:13:13 Metaphysical, I tell you. 23:13:24 It's magic because it's meta. 23:13:27 Metaphysical: Even more meta than physical 23:13:27 "ehird" isn't a particularly /male/ name 23:13:34 aliseiphone: and what did the physical say? 23:13:46 (*cough* I never met a physical I didn't like.) 23:13:53 ais523: True. 23:14:10 "alise" is unambiguously female, however. 23:14:51 coppro: Also, *don't. 23:15:03 good catch 23:15:20 Someone offer to try leaden out when it's ready or I'll die. Of shame. 23:16:11 What's leaden? 23:16:18 Also, are you turning into me? 23:16:25 Now to make the cksum mostly-POSIX. 23:16:39 This consists of: adding support for command line arguments. 23:18:05 Sgeo: An awesome editor I'm writing; and no. 23:18:17 pikhq: Who needs 'em. 23:18:45 Who even uses cksum, anyway? 23:19:01 aliseiphone: Few people. 23:19:30 And now I'm going "wait a sec, the code for every other implementation of this I could find sucks". 23:19:32 Someone should totally ask me to explain leaden's design. Cough. :P 23:19:54 Okay, so maybe I *am* turning into Sgeo. 23:20:13 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:21:36 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info). 23:22:17 -!- aliseiphone has joined. 23:22:20 Oops. 23:24:29 aliseiphone, does your on-screen keyboard ever freeze up? 23:25:25 Sometimes I get a ghost one on top rendering the UI useless. 23:25:37 And stop using me to justify buying an iPhone. 23:25:49 No more obvious questions of such a nature. 23:26:06 I never bought an iPhone 23:28:12 -!- Slereah has joined. 23:29:35 strange news: they found an armed handgrenade at a recycling station in Stockholm this evening 23:29:37 ais523, ^ 23:29:46 that seems pretty random 23:30:02 random violence 23:30:06 ais523, you mean, placing a hand grenade there being random or me mentioning it? 23:30:11 ais523, the sprint was still in 23:30:15 well, both 23:30:18 -!- nooga has joined. 23:30:46 http://sprunge.us/JMgb 23:30:48 Opinions? 23:30:57 "Anyway, all these computers and digital gadgets are no good. They just fill your head with numbers, and that can't be good for you." -- The "artist" formerly known as "the artist formerly known as Prince" 23:31:57 oerjan, http://www.dn.se/sthlm/handgranat-hittad-gator-avsparrade-1.1133422 23:31:57 ... GAH WHY IS INDENT=2? 23:32:02 you can probably read it 23:32:04 There's mine. 23:32:17 346126 23:32:19 they messed up the date there ye 23:32:21 yes* 23:35:32 http://sprunge.us/SVRa 23:35:34 There. Better. 23:35:50 pikhq, you want that table static const 23:36:00 AnMaster: Yes, yes I do. 23:36:04 pikhq, otherwise it can't be shared between different running instances 23:36:48 Gregor, is that what he is now known as? 23:37:52 Sure, why not 23:40:07 AnMaster: This is the only implementation of cksum I know of that uses stdio. 23:40:19 Erm. Uses stdio *sanely*. 23:40:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 23:40:35 Each and every other one goes through read or fread for not-much-good-reason. 23:41:02 Granted, they are absurdly faster, but eh. 23:41:26 pikhq, what does your one use? no browser open atm 23:41:38 pikhq, if it uses fgets() you fail at handling \0 23:41:43 pikhq: what about stdio_unlocked? or do you consider that insane? 23:41:48 AnMaster: fgetc 23:41:52 ais523: AAAGHNONONO 23:41:57 pikhq, okay I would use mmap 23:42:10 with fallback on stdio fread 23:42:12 AnMaster: Of course you would. 23:42:22 if you hit a char device or such 23:42:28 Are there any nice compiled imperative languages out there with standard libraries similar to Python's 23:42:29 ? 23:42:32 pikhq, what do you mean with that? ;P 23:43:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:43:15 mmap is pretty retarded on a single iteration through a file. 23:43:35 pikhq, depends. It does IO rather efficiently still 23:43:48 It ends up being comparable to, oh, *loading the entire file into memory*. 23:43:57 pikhq, it loads on the fly 23:43:58 Even though you don't need much more than a buffer. 23:44:17 pikhq, linux only loads a few pages ahead of you 23:44:21 and it unmaps old pages 23:44:28 if you mark it with posix_madvice 23:44:29 ;P 23:44:37 * cheater99 has just done 500 crunches 23:44:38 sorry 23:44:39 madvice 23:44:41 Yes... It unmaps old pages *when it would swap stuff out*. 23:44:59 err 23:45:04 I'm not in favor of using more memory for hardly any benefit. 23:45:06 posix_madvise even 23:45:38 posix_madvise() with POSIX_MADV_SEQUENTIAL 23:46:20 pikhq, anyway I would probably use fread() 23:47:39 AnMaster: It's fast enough as is, and I, personally, am in favor of clarity over speed. 23:48:43 * AnMaster inserts a poisx_fadvise in pikhq's code 23:48:44 madvise sounds like something you shouldn't listen to. 23:48:48 MWHAHAHAHA 23:48:58 it sounds like the kind of advice that homeless people always have for you. 23:49:02 You punk. 23:49:34 pikhq, me or cheater99? 23:50:13 AnMaster: You. 23:50:18 of course 23:50:22 What benefit does posix_fadvise get you? 23:51:43 pikhq, see the man page 23:51:54 AnMaster: *MEASUREMENTS*. 23:51:54 pikhq, it increases readahead window if you want it 23:52:08 pikhq, in cksum? probably not much :P 23:52:13 but it is fun to poke fun at you 23:52:41 Though I am tempted to check the benefits done by fread. 23:54:00 pikhq, good idea 23:54:22 pikhq, you could use non-blocking reads too, so you can compute stuff while waiting for the DMA buffer to fill 23:54:25 ;P 23:54:43 AnMaster: -_-' 23:54:48 That way leads to Coreutils. 23:55:46 pikhq, :D 23:55:57 pikhq, 23:55:58 POSIX_FADV_WILLNEED initiates a nonblocking read of the specified region into the page cache. The amount of data read may be decreased by the kernel depending 23:55:58 on virtual memory load. (A few megabytes will usually be fully satisfied, and more is rarely useful.) 23:56:02 pikhq, yay! :P 23:56:27 pikhq, of course just letting kernel do it's usual readahead is probably enough 23:57:29 pikhq, this is #esoteric. There is no reason whatsoever to _not_ contemplate this 23:57:41 pikhq: Your cksum sucks. 23:57:47 It's bloated. :| 23:57:55 aliseiphone, is it? 23:58:03 Yes' 23:58:08 *Yes! 23:58:25 aliseiphone, how would you write it 23:58:27 As far as coreutils go I'm a minimalism nazi. :P 23:58:42 AnMaster: Something much more like his original paste. 23:58:49 aliseiphone, link? 23:58:59 Find it yourself. 23:59:05 meh not worth it 23:59:12 Just after I came in. M 23:59:18 aliseiphone: Bloated? I presume you mean "it uses libc", right? 23:59:20 *in. 23:59:36 pikhq: No, it's just bloated. :P 23:59:37 I feel sinful. I gave money to M. Night Shyamalan. 23:59:41 how secure is login with physical unit to generate a response code? 23:59:48 aliseiphone: How so? 23:59:51 for bank 2010-07-06: 00:00:04 Aside from the absurd error checking... 00:00:15 (mmm, correctness) 00:00:45 I feel weird. I found a practical use for BF 00:00:55 coppro, oh what is it? 00:01:15 "I want to learn C#" "Go to this site, it's how I learned" "But you already had some programming experience" 00:01:15 I just suggested Python or C 00:01:22 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:01:32 For "encrypting" a file - not to actually protect the data, but just discourage casual observers. Run the following program, which interestingly enough has each symbol exactly once: +[>,-.<] 00:01:48 run it again with s/-/+/ to un"encrypt" it 00:02:19 and the BF program is shorter than the equivalent in nearly every other language 00:02:30 -!- aliseiphone has joined. 00:02:32 The current code is short but doesn't clearly express the fundamental idea "compute a CRC32 checksum". Remember, commands are the functions of the Unix OS. 00:02:35 actually, waitaminute 00:02:37 that won't work 00:02:47 pikhq: did you get "Look at your..."? 00:02:49 I forgot how BF behaves when it runs out of input 00:02:59 +[,-.+] will do it 00:03:05 coppro: sets cell to 0 mostly 00:03:14 sometimes unchangef 00:03:15 hmm... off-by-one error 00:03:20 *unchangef 00:03:24 *unchanged 00:03:34 ,[-.,] 00:03:38 aliseiphone: No. 00:03:38 which my phone autocorrects to unchangef 00:03:46 pikhq: Yes. 00:03:51 aliseiphone: what a fantastic phone i must buy one now 00:03:52 pikhq: Oh, I see. 00:03:58 "Look at your..." ? 00:04:34 pikhq: Look at your original code. That expressed your intent incredibly clearly. Strip useless options. Get rid of the, yes, absurd error checking. 00:04:37 The current code is short but doesn't clearly express the fundamental idea "compute a CRC32 checksum". Remember, commands are the functions of the Unix OS. 00:04:38 Y 00:04:52 *That's what I said. 00:05:10 aliseiphone: Okay, so screw the error checking that I added on a bizarre whim. 00:05:29 aliseiphone tends to be anti-feature though (j/k) 00:05:37 I think I can keep the fopen error checking. 00:05:38 And functions shouldn't have unneccessary cruft. When writing functions, how many flags do they have? 00:05:43 Otherwise? Pffft. 00:05:46 Usually, very few. 00:06:07 You nest (pipe) functions (commands) instead. 00:06:20 aliseiphone: POSIX requires the argument. 00:06:28 So, do try and remove all flags that significantly complicate your code. 00:06:44 pikhq: POSIX compliance is an amusing fiction. 00:06:55 And almost all UNIXes implement that. 00:06:58 Nothing actually *uses* cksum(1). 00:07:01 Even Heirloom. 00:07:09 pikhq: Fine, fine. 00:07:28 Separate the code common to the arguments. Say into a function. 00:07:36 * pikhq does so 00:07:56 "if(flag)" in actually-computing code is lame. :P 00:08:17 pikhq: Look at your original code. That expressed your intent incredibly clearly. Strip useless options. Get rid of the, yes, absurd error checking. 00:08:18 so 00:08:36 correctness is less important than simplicity? 00:08:40 aliseiphone, yes or no? 00:08:55 pikhq: Also, I do wonder if the octets blab might better belong in the BUGS section of cksum.1. 00:09:00 aliseiphone, yes or no? 00:09:02 AnMaster: For Unix? Yes. 00:09:13 aliseiphone, no 00:09:14 IMO 00:09:19 aliseiphone: It probably does. 00:09:34 AnMaster: Go fuck Multics. 00:09:42 aliseiphone, lovely system 00:09:51 AnMaster: Point made. 00:10:08 It didn't work properly, was one minor flaw. 00:10:45 I like the idea of a truly correct C program. Ha! 00:10:45 aliseiphone, which one? 00:11:01 aliseiphone, that would be awesome. But I suggest using haskell or such for that 00:11:23 pikhq: Also, I suggest removing the libc dependency and rewriting it in PDP-11 assembly. 00:11:36 AnMaster: a truly correct haskell program??? 00:11:39 Hahaha 00:11:46 aliseiphone: :P 00:11:53 Clearly you know nothing of haskell :) 00:12:10 Also, this is coming out much more nicely. 00:12:18 Thanks for the sanity check, aliseiphone. 00:12:41 pikhq: Just call me "Ultimate Genius, Lord Over Everything". 00:12:46 That's all I ask for. 00:13:17 http://sprunge.us/ZWTV 00:13:24 Mmm. 00:14:11 Doesn't compile though XD 00:14:30 s/else {/} else {/ 00:14:42 s/name/argv[1]/ 00:15:06 aliseiphone, yes, hello world in haskell, ought to be truly correct quite easily 00:15:18 if you meant non-trivial then say so 00:16:07 pikhq: Additional, nitpicking suggestions: Put the CRC function first; the UI is cruft, not the important bit; try and reduce the nesting of the UI logic; and use "!strcmp" rather than "strcmp(...) == 0". But these are minutiae; the code is great. 00:16:21 *argh* 00:16:26 MORE BUGS 00:16:37 aliseiphone: Other than the bugs 00:16:38 :P 00:16:44 AnMaster: Have you ever considered being less of a pedant in informal conversation? It's a nice social lubricant. 00:16:56 pikhq: As long as it *looks* elegant! 00:17:01 aliseiphone: Hah. 00:18:33 One day I must figure out how to write a truly elegant ls(1). It has so many interacting flags, but separating these into programs seems near-impossible! 00:18:57 aliseiphone, you are officially being an idiot or a troll now 00:19:00 which one I wonder 00:19:59 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:20:44 AnMaster: Oh? And which line made you decide this? 00:20:51 One day I must figure out how to write a truly elegant ls(1). It has so many interacting flags, but separating these into programs seems near-impossible! 00:20:56 aliseiphone, that one :P 00:21:29 aliseiphone, and ls without colour I won't use. I find the coloured output very very useful 00:21:32 just FYI 00:21:59 aliseiphone: Oh, how I wish that I could return a tuple in C. 00:22:00 You are free to note that I can write ls(1) perfectly well, that a version with limited flags is very easy to make truly elegant, and that I have a very stringent definition of "trule elegant". 00:22:16 trule :) 00:22:34 pikhq, return struct on stack 00:22:38 Sorry, return one *and pattern match*. 00:22:43 ah 00:22:50 Furthermore, I don't, never have, and never will give a damn about whether you will use my coreutils or not. Especially as I know you won't from the get-go. 00:22:51 try haskell or erlang 00:23:05 patterns are no match for C 00:23:11 oerjan, -_- 00:23:17 http://sprunge.us/ZVMh 00:23:18 Bam. 00:23:18 that was truly awful 00:23:37 gotta keep you on your toes 00:23:38 pikhq, that's the original one aliseiphone hated? 00:23:52 pikhq: Thats the old one :P 00:23:53 AnMaster: ... ? 00:23:57 *That's 00:23:58 aliseiphone: OH 00:24:06 XD 00:24:16 Lemme get the right thing in the pastebuffer. 00:24:17 AnMaster speaks in a foreign language :P 00:24:20 http://sprunge.us/GGWP 00:24:33 aliseiphone: inte omöjligt 00:24:49 oerjan, instämmer med föregående Norske talare 00:24:51 i'm in a pub :F 00:24:56 pikhq: You have crc's prototype right before its definition. 00:25:02 yeargh 00:25:06 This is... interestingly superfluous. 00:25:08 aliseiphone: ... Yearghright. 00:25:19 oerjan: my bro is in norway and he's a f*#* genius if it comes to natural langs 00:25:24 Kill that line. 00:25:35 * oerjan aims and shoots 00:25:41 pikhq, and put static on the next one 00:25:42 pikhq: it's dead 00:26:21 I need an ipad and 00:26:33 a keyboard here 00:26:33 eww ipad 00:26:37 he spent 3 weeks there and he actually speaks simple norwegian 00:26:40 and a compiler 00:26:50 AnMaster: try hiding a laptop 00:27:00 aliseiphone, an ipad would be equally hard 00:27:06 aliseiphone, also put a compiler on n900 00:27:09 consider it done 00:27:10 wrong 00:27:34 knock on door, press button on ipad, rest on floor, hidden 00:27:36 aliseiphone, _proper_ smartphones can run compilers 00:27:41 laptop... Not so quick. 00:27:42 Bartosz Michał Gasperowicz FFFFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!! Lurt igjen! :D 00:27:50 AnMaster: so can the iphone 00:28:00 aliseiphone, so do that then? 00:28:19 oerjan: what does this mean? 00:28:20 AnMaster: Keyboard. Screen real estate. Processing power. 00:28:39 500mhz arm + small screen + touchscreen keyboard = no 00:28:48 thus the ipad wish 00:28:55 nooga: Bartosz Micha? Gasperowicz DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!! Fooled again! :D 00:29:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:29:23 because he works for a guy that can't express feelings, he just passes information 00:29:30 oerjan: l- not ? 00:29:39 and says somethin and then does something different 00:29:41 polish l :P 00:29:42 aliseiphone: what? 00:29:47 he's in a village 'near' Floro 00:29:57 oerjan: Nooga said 00:30:12 "Micha[l-]" 00:30:19 Not "Micha?". 00:30:21 there was unicode? oh well. 00:30:24 it's not Polish l 00:30:33 its* 00:30:36 So is. 00:30:37 its ł 00:30:49 shiiiit no 00:30:51 Polish l. 00:30:51 it's* 00:31:01 l != ł 00:31:05 nooga, oerjan fail at unicode 00:31:13 Polish fuck you! 02:41:30 -!- clog has joined. 02:41:30 -!- clog has joined. 03:06:53 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:14:08 wait 03:14:13 how long has clog been missing 03:14:33 argh several hours 03:16:59 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:17:45 -!- coppro has joined. 04:16:16 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 04:30:09 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:34:00 * pikhq would like to demonstrate how you do a Makefile, for everyone that makes it too complex. 04:34:02 http://sprunge.us/IEXi 04:44:49 http://failblog.org/2010/07/05/epic-fail-photos-makeup-fail/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+failblog+(The+FAIL+Blog+-+Fail+Pictures+%26+Videos+at+Failblog.ORG)&utm_content=FaceBook 04:59:24 * pikhq is a-doing a coreutils 04:59:25 FTW 05:08:56 http://sprunge.us/IEXi <-- I would add the .PHONY line, but otherwise I agree 05:09:53 pikhq, also I would, if I had more programs, add PROGRAMS = foo bar quux 05:09:59 then all: $(PROGRAMS) 05:10:03 clean: 05:10:03 AnMaster: Yeah. 05:10:11 rm -f $(PROGRAMS) *.o 05:10:24 that way there is less duplication 05:10:35 pikhq, but yes I agree with the general idea 05:11:24 -!- DavidCaruso has joined. 05:11:54 pikhq, also how would you make one target link -lm there 05:12:00 pikhq, I never figured out a clean way 05:12:06 that is, with just implicit targets 05:18:56 AnMaster: Uh, GNU make only, but there's a way to do per-target variables. 05:19:30 target: LDFLAGS += -lm 05:21:35 pikhq, ah, well that puts it BEFORE the files iirc 05:21:45 which break with -Wl,--as-needed 05:21:48 in the environment 05:22:01 pikhq, which might be an issue 05:23:13 AnMaster: Argh. 05:23:21 LDLIBS is what you want. 05:23:23 pikhq, ? 05:23:25 That goes after. 05:23:30 LDLIBS? or LIBS? 05:23:36 LDLIBS. 05:25:29 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 05:25:33 :o 05:25:39 -!- DavidCaruso has quit (Quit: Page closed). 05:25:40 hey folks. 05:26:01 http://sprunge.us/BgXe It's 100% POSIX compliant cat! 05:26:17 (thank God they removed all the other options!) 05:27:50 pikhq, fread! 05:27:55 It worries me greatly that most implementations of cat are actually complex. 05:27:58 AnMaster: NO 05:28:04 pikhq, ought to be faster 05:28:12 AnMaster: It's fucking CAT 05:28:46 pikhq, yes I want to concatenate a dual-side dual-layer dvd image split on 1.44 MB floppies! ;P 05:28:50 that needs a fast cat 05:29:09 ... "1.44 MB floppies". 05:29:22 No, that needs a cat that operates faster than the floppy drive. 05:29:23 pikhq, yes? 05:29:34 I can guarantee that this is orders of magnitude faster. 05:29:42 pikhq, ah but already copied the floppies to disk with dd 05:30:03 Still fast enough. 05:30:08 pikhq, that is to a RAM disk 05:30:11 * Sgeo learns a lesson 05:30:15 Shaddup. 05:30:18 NEVER code just for the happy case 05:30:28 Sgeo: oh of course. 05:30:30 Even if, in production, the happy case will always be true 05:30:47 Because in development, it isn't necessarily the case 05:31:24 Sgeo: well, it's a balancing act. It is helpful to consider worse-case scenarios in an algirthm, but if you do it too much you waste a lot of time with boilerplate code. Sometimes you should just let it crash. 05:32:56 * pikhq tries to find a list of utils that POSIX requires 05:33:09 pikhq, it is in the POSIX standard 05:33:16 pikhq, which is free 05:33:16 Yeah, found it 05:33:32 I still haven't seen error-handling in Haskell in action. 05:36:01 AnMaster: It doesn't have a single handy list, but it's possible to see if something's required. Which works for me. 05:36:25 pikhq, it has a list on the side in the pdf bookmarks 05:36:39 Mmm. 05:37:42 Gash darnit, awk is mandatory. 05:38:55 * pikhq says no 05:39:06 I don't care what it says, that's seperate from coreutils. 05:40:42 pikhq, sed it mandatory too 05:41:20 pikhq, as is sh and vi 05:42:02 cya 05:42:11 LALALACANTHEARYOU 05:42:35 pikhq, hey you are not ehird :P 05:42:37 stop doing that 05:43:44 :P 05:43:54 pikhq, iirc getline() is in POSIX 2008 and suc 05:43:56 such* 05:44:08 the glibc people managed to get a few things in 05:44:20 things that are actually quite useful in general 05:44:24 a few useless ones too iirc 05:44:36 bbl 06:06:58 so... 06:07:30 I have this piss cheap vodka that I do not want to finish off straight. But I don't want to throw it into a shitty mixed drink either if it isn't going to waste good 06:07:36 How does coke and vodka sound? 06:11:59 you know what 06:12:01 I don't even care 06:12:04 coke and vodka it is. 06:20:47 ...okay 06:20:52 so for future reference 06:20:55 coke, vodka, chocolate syrup 06:34:05 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:35:31 -!- coppro has joined. 06:38:32 /bin/cat is 52k. That frightens me. 06:39:24 I think you can do it in like 50 bytes 06:40:05 Yeah. 06:40:27 Mine's 8k with dietlibc, but then, that does include a full stdio implementation. 06:40:48 asmutils' is 684 bytes. 06:41:21 -!- Gregor has joined. 06:41:50 Tomorrow: bc! 06:45:58 coppro: The ELF header is longer than 50 bytes :-P 06:46:16 Deewiant: oh, well 06:46:19 It was something really silly 06:46:22 definitely under 1kB 06:46:31 (it wasn't compliant though; just straight no-option cat 06:46:56 Something like 250-300 bytes is probably doable 06:47:01 coppro: asmutils' is *GNU* compliants. 06:47:06 Erm. 06:47:08 nice 06:47:08 Compliant. 06:50:00 pikhq: MICROCOSM 06:50:24 Gregor: ADD 06:50:27 :P 06:50:37 pikhq: SUBTRACT 07:28:15 !haskell sequence $ [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]] 07:28:19 [[1,4,7],[1,4,8],[1,4,9],[1,5,7],[1,5,8],[1,5,9],[1,6,7],[1,6,8],[1,6,9],[2,4,7],[2,4,8],[2,4,9],[2,5,7],[2,5,8],[2,5,9],[2,6,7],[2,6,8],[2,6,9],[3,4,7],[3,4,8],[3,4,9],[3,5,7],[3,5,8],[3,5,9],[3,6,7],[3,6,8],[3,6,9]] 07:28:36 so... superset? 07:28:48 what operation am I looking at. 07:29:33 !haskell sequence $ [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9,10]] 07:29:35 [[1,4,7],[1,4,8],[1,4,9],[1,4,10],[1,5,7],[1,5,8],[1,5,9],[1,5,10],[1,6,7],[1,6,8],[1,6,9],[1,6,10],[2,4,7],[2,4,8],[2,4,9],[2,4,10],[2,5,7],[2,5,8],[2,5,9],[2,5,10],[2,6,7],[2,6,8],[2,6,9],[2,6,10],[3,4,7],[3,4,8],[3,4,9],[3,4,10],[3,5,7],[3,5,8],[3,5,9],[3,5,10],[3,6,7],[3,6,8],[3,6,9],[3,6,10]] 07:29:41 oh my 07:30:07 so the size of each sub-list is the minimum size of the input sub-lists 07:33:28 for some reason it reminds me of powerset, but it's not the same. 07:34:16 oh, and there's one size-4 list.... so now I have no fucking clue what sequence does on [[a]] 07:34:36 other than a bunch of permutation-like lists 07:39:33 !haskell sequence $ [[1],[2]] 07:39:34 [[1,2]] 07:39:44 !haskell sequence $ [[1,2],[3,4]] 07:39:45 [[1,3],[1,4],[2,3],[2,4]] 07:40:08 ...oooooh 07:40:18 !haskell sequence $ [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]] 07:40:20 [[1,4],[1,5],[1,6],[2,4],[2,5],[2,6],[3,4],[3,5],[3,6]] 07:40:28 Deewiant: Speaking of small executables, I have a 253-byte stub (inc. ELF headers + code) for x86-32 which does (with direct syscalls) fork+exec /bin/bzcat, feeds it a blob, reads it to rwx segment and jumps into it. 07:41:42 Deewiant: (I use it for compressed executables, since UPX's compression ratio isn't so awesome and its decompression stub is larger; while the "traditional" trick of making a shellscript that decompresses into /tmp/x and runs it is so ugly.) 07:43:14 Deewiant: (Anyhow, I'm sure you can get a "doesn't look at argv, just read+write loop" cat into the 100-150 byte range. My headers are 72 bytes, and you can stick 9 bytes of code into the padding in the middle anyway.) 07:45:46 so basically 07:46:05 sequence is non-deterministic for [[a]] 07:46:24 uh, what? 07:46:30 every Haskell function is deterministic 07:47:13 each sublist in the output becomes a non-deterministic value of a new non-deterministic sequence... represented determinnistically as a [[a]] 07:47:22 coppro: simulated, of course. I use non-deterministic loosely. 07:47:38 s/output/input 07:47:47 how is this non-deterministic at all? 07:47:56 okay... here's what I'm saying 07:48:26 let's say the input to the sequencefunction is a sequence x(n) 07:48:31 and the output is y(n) 07:49:01 y(n) = [x(1), x(2), x(3), x(4) ...] 07:49:37 !haskell sequence $ [[1,2],[3,4],[5,6]] 07:49:39 [[1,3,5],[1,3,6],[1,4,5],[1,4,6],[2,3,5],[2,3,6],[2,4,5],[2,4,6]] 07:50:04 should start at zero, acutally. So that's 07:50:14 [x(0), x(1), x(2)] 07:51:22 x(0) = 1 or 2; x(1) = 3 or 4; x(2) = 5 or 6 07:52:24 it's a simulation of a non-determinstic sequence that constructs every possible deterministic sequence that it represents. 07:52:35 I don't think I'm making any sense. 07:55:44 !haskell do {nd_list <- sequence [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]; nd_list} 07:55:46 [1,4,1,5,1,6,2,4,2,5,2,6,3,4,3,5,3,6] 07:55:59 that flattens it. 07:56:18 join $ sequence [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]] 07:56:26 !haskell join $ sequence [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]] 07:56:33 !haskell :t join 07:56:41 ... :o 07:56:47 it broke. 07:57:04 !haskell :t join 07:57:15 [00:52:11]I don't think I'm making any sense. <-- this 07:57:25 ha. 07:57:50 it's basically how the monadic operations of [] a represent non-determinism 07:58:09 sequence takes one representation and flips it around in a way. 07:59:47 so instead of having a list where each sub-list is a non-deterministic value 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:17 you now have a list where each sub-list is a possible determinized list. 08:00:49 of the original non-deterministic sequence 08:00:58 ... 08:01:05 fucking English 08:01:22 natural language makes technical things hard to explain. 08:01:31 fizzie: I was thinking of "completely ordinary" executables, not using parts of the ELF header for code. :-) 08:01:46 But everyone's doing that! 08:01:46 fizzie: But I did misremember that the headers were around 120 bytes or so. 08:04:32 !haskell do {x <- [1..9]; return $ [x, x+1, x+2]} 08:04:33 [[1,2,3],[2,3,4],[3,4,5],[4,5,6],[5,6,7],[6,7,8],[7,8,9],[8,9,10],[9,10,11]] 08:05:01 Deewiant: They're about that size if you have more than one segment, which you will in a "completely ordinary" executable (one read-write for data, one read-executable for code). 08:05:15 !haskell do {x <- [1..9]; [x, x+1, x+2]} 08:05:16 [1,2,3,2,3,4,3,4,5,4,5,6,5,6,7,6,7,8,7,8,9,8,9,10,9,10,11] 08:05:35 Deewiant: (Also mine would be 80 bytes already, I just interlaced the last 8 bytes of the file header with the first 8 of the segment header.) 08:05:35 Well, you probably don't need a non-code segment for cat 08:05:38 hmmmm.... 08:05:44 just got an idea 08:06:02 if you newtype'd list 08:06:15 you could implement a monad for digital signal processing that makes things like delay-lines easy to do. 08:06:40 hmmm, well not newtype actually 08:07:07 Deewiant: Well: 08:07:08 htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ nasm -Ox -o cat -f bin cat.asm ; chmod u+x cat 08:07:08 htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ echo 'foo, bar, baz' | ./cat 08:07:08 foo, bar, baz 08:07:08 htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ ls -l cat 08:07:08 -rwxrw-r-- 1 htkallas htkallas 110 2010-07-06 10:06 cat* 08:07:49 do { (dval, x) <- signalWithDelay 3 [1..]; return $ dval+x} 08:08:14 fizzie: Doesn't take arguments, I take it :-) 08:08:16 psh, wtf am I saying. You don't even need to define a new type. 08:08:37 Deewiant: Right. Haven't tested it much either, might have bugs. Might also be a bit overly pessimistic as to whether a syscall's argument registers stay intact; I think they might, which would save some bytes. 08:08:43 I was thinking POSIX-compatible 08:08:47 signalWithDelay :: [a] -> [(Maybe a,a)] 08:08:52 signalWithDelay :: Int -> [a] -> [(Maybe a,a)] 08:09:14 fizzie: I don't think that's guaranteed anywhere, but I'm not sure. 08:09:43 signalWithDelay :: Int -> Int -> [a] -> [([Maybe a],a)] 08:10:04 Deewiant: Somebody claimed it was, and the syscall handling seemed to suggest they were, but I didn't see it exactly spelled out in the docs anywhere. The syscall number is lost, at least, since that's the return value register. 08:10:08 first int is distance back, second int is size of the delay line. 08:11:45 Some architectures clobber the syscall argument registers, according to some glibc bug report I found when googling for whether x86-32 does. 08:12:21 delayedSignalWithDefault :: Int -> Int -> Int -> [([a],a)] 08:12:29 to get rid of the Maybe. 08:12:55 delayedSignalWithDefault :: a -> Int -> Int -> [([a],a)] 08:12:56 actually 08:17:06 hmmm 08:17:57 do you think there would be any real harm in making tuple types a superset of all algebraic data types with a single constructor that fits the tuple? 08:18:29 data List = Cons a [a] | Empty 08:19:04 list = Cons 0 $ Cons 1 $ Cons 2 $ Cons 3 08:19:22 (x, xs) = list 08:19:44 congratulations, you just described Haskell lists 08:19:54 well, what I'm saying 08:20:08 is there any reason to make tuples distinct from named algebraic constructors. 08:20:20 yes 08:20:37 why couldn't tuples simply represent /any/ constructor for pattern matching? 08:20:50 any constructor that matches, that is. 08:20:58 Deewiant: 101 bytes if I assume the regs are saved, and it seems to work. 08:21:05 so for example 08:21:27 fizzie: Of course it may work, but that doesn't mean it's ABI-guaranteed :-) 08:21:35 a value of type (a, [a]) would contain the set of [a] values constructed via (:) 08:22:06 Deewiant: There were some .pdf slidesets that seemed to suggest it was. :p 08:22:33 but a value of type (a, [a]) would not include values of type [a] constructed from [] 08:22:40 because it does not match. 08:23:23 [a] values constructed from [] could be type () 08:24:10 Deewiant: http://sprunge.us/LhDM if you want to see them codes. 08:24:36 so... 08:25:02 instead of writing functions that operate on specific named types of specific typeclasses 08:25:24 you could instead write functions that operate on any algebraic data structure constructed with a certain signature 08:25:47 *named types /or/ specific typeclasses 08:27:26 it would almost be a sort of weak typing 08:27:38 fizzie: I note no error checking 08:27:48 fizzie: Where's your buffer size? 08:28:11 under that typing system, (1,(2,(3,()))) would be equivalent to [1,2,3] as well as any other algebraic value constructed the same way. 08:28:39 Deewiant: It's the same as the buffer's address. You know, to save bytes. 08:28:50 Deewiant: (That's why I loaded the program to a reasonably low address.) 08:28:54 >_< 08:29:07 fizzie: ha. 08:29:20 And there *is* error checking of sorts; if the read fails, it'll exit. 08:29:28 If the write fails, though, then it won't bother. 08:29:28 imagine if the address was 1 billion base 10. :) 08:29:51 But with the correct error code? 08:30:13 Well, no, of course not. That would mean I'd have to distinguish between errors and end-of-file. 08:30:34 Exactly :-) 08:30:48 Your cat is but a poor approximation of a cat 08:31:09 Deewiant: You can possibly add a "sets bl" into some proper spot to get return code 0 of the program when it hits EOF, and 1 when an error occurs. 08:31:32 The worst part of the cat is that it won't read files specified as arguments, admittedly. 08:32:29 Also, write may write less than it's given; you need to loop it until it's done 08:32:38 "Nah." 08:33:01 I'll stick to GNU cat; it may be bloated but at least it works! 08:33:25 [] :: (), EOF :: (), () :: () 08:34:10 [] :: [a], EOF :: ExampleStreamType a, () :: () 08:34:47 Deewiant: The decompression stub I have now writes the whole compressed code into a FIFO before starting to read from bzcat; it works because Linux's pipe buffers are 64k nowadays. I used to have three processes (one child to exec bzcat, one child to loop-write bytes into its stdin, the parent to read until EOF and then run the code) but that took far too many bytes; to get it under 256 bytes I had to cut some corners. 08:35:36 Hackety-hack 08:36:12 Another "nice" trick: I put bzcat's argv list at the very end of the program, because that way I don't need to explicitly put the terminating NULL pointer in the file, since what's after the program is zero-initialized data already. 08:37:55 (Lunchtime.) 08:38:08 More like breakfast time 08:49:14 bah... sockets in Haskell are not very well documented 08:50:46 http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/repealing-unnecessary-laws/repeal-the-2nd-law-of-thermodynamics-1 09:04:35 Deewiant: I almost never manage to do any breakfast at home, so I have to do a 10:30 lunch here. 09:05:03 Breakfast is the most important meal of the day etc 09:08:37 Let's call what I just ate a "breakfast", then. 09:08:48 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:09:49 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:20:29 -!- tombom has joined. 09:22:01 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:26:36 -!- yiyus has joined. 09:27:27 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined. 09:47:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:47:32 -!- augur has joined. 09:53:27 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:55:06 -!- wareya has joined. 10:01:39 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:03:53 -!- wareya has joined. 10:35:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:49:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:49:35 -!- augur has joined. 10:57:02 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 11:12:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:12:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:12:24 -!- augur has joined. 11:21:52 -!- DH____ has joined. 11:24:38 I think I program a little better after being drunk 11:24:42 not while drunk 11:24:46 but after I have sobered up 11:35:54 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:43:59 where are o(klopol|erian) 11:50:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:55:00 -!- MizardX has joined. 11:59:27 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split). 11:59:29 -!- cheater99 has quit (*.net *.split). 12:02:41 -!- augur has joined. 12:02:41 -!- cheater99 has joined. 12:05:53 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split). 12:05:54 -!- cheater99 has quit (*.net *.split). 12:14:40 -!- augur has joined. 12:15:35 -!- cheater99 has joined. 13:10:36 -!- maxman has joined. 13:11:41 -!- elliottcable has changed nick to Paws. 13:11:51 -!- Paws has changed nick to elliottcable. 13:12:01 -!- maxman has left (?). 13:36:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:11:30 -!- nooga has joined. 14:22:00 AnMaster: sorry for disappearing, my battery was depleted 14:24:42 nooga, hm lets see 14:25:03 nooga, wtf is http://plfoto.com/zdjecie,inne,wkrotce-bal-sie-tutaj-rozpocznie,1549252.html ? Some sort of post-apocalypse world? 14:25:07 nooga, and tell your dad I think your images are awesome. And I love HDR. 14:25:11 nooga, ^ 14:36:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:41:32 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:41:41 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 14:42:03 not post-apocalypse but post-soviet :D 14:44:21 http://keygenjukebox.com 14:44:23 http://keygenjukebox.com 14:44:23 http://keygenjukebox.com 14:44:31 nooga: hahah 14:44:34 nooga: it's the same. 14:45:10 yeah :f 14:46:32 Hm wow. Any of you have a classical PC keyboard nearby. Not low profile that is. And a rubber band. 14:46:32 Put the rubber band around ESC-F12, wait while it slides up the keys... Try to predict which way it flies. 14:46:49 it was like soviets took polish manors and turned them into big farms & stuff and then left 14:47:06 so there are some ruined places like this 14:50:01 AnMaster: no. 14:50:01 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:50:25 nooga: it's not like they weren't pigstalls before the russians came 14:50:56 -!- wareya has joined. 14:51:19 pardon? 14:52:23 the royals getting drunk and high all the time for the money they got from traders for selling off their influence 14:52:49 you can only have so many drunken parties in a nice place before it turns into a crackhouse 14:53:16 http://cutr.pl/5ec68700f0 14:54:16 uhm 14:55:56 do you truly think if the polish gave a shit about their country this stuff would like that *today*? 14:56:14 25 years after overthrowing the soviet regime? 14:56:53 AnMaster: no. <-- ? 14:57:20 AnMaster: i refuse to be a slave executing your rubberband schemes. 14:57:34 cheater99, XD 14:58:08 > sure 15:19:25 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:22:44 -!- Deewiant has joined. 15:25:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:36:08 wow, someone found an XSS bug in Youtube comments (now fixed) 15:36:24 the string that broke them was