00:00:03 <Gregor> calamari: Uhhh, that's exactly what I thought you meant :P
00:01:10 <calamari> well thanks for getting me past that first hurdle
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00:04:38 <alise> Gregor: link me to that teddynom thing
00:07:14 <oerjan> http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif
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00:07:37 <alise> oerjan has it bookmarked
00:08:17 <oerjan> actually i just typed codu and selected from the suggestions menu :D
00:11:12 <GreaseMonkey> wrt hackiki: i think it should be as a wiki on the side
00:11:18 <alise> I've been stepping through the Ubuntu install then forgetting about it for like hours now.
00:11:27 <GreaseMonkey> if it's a bit too dangerous, we could consider using jsmips
00:11:35 <alise> It's not dangerous.
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00:11:46 <GreaseMonkey> if the server runs freebsd then you can jail it
00:12:52 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Is there no-one sane in this channel?
00:12:59 <oerjan> we have slight doubts about AnMaster
00:13:34 <alise> AnMaster is just "not sane" not "insane"
00:13:43 <ais523> I thought AnMaster was excessively sane
00:13:47 <ais523> as its own form of insanityt
00:14:09 <oerjan> well there _could_ be someone sane among the people who never speak, i guess
00:15:51 <alise> ais523: have you seen AnMaster's optimisation options?
00:16:01 <alise> he's so sane crossed into the region of unsane
00:16:04 <alise> which is like insane but boring!
00:16:49 <oerjan> ...why did i not see Phantom_Hoover left just before i quoted him
00:16:59 <oerjan> THAT'S IMPOLITE, YOU RASCAL
00:17:31 <oerjan> especially since i'm pretty sure he doesn't read the logs. unless my previous hints have gotten through to him.
00:20:13 <oerjan> <oklopol> maybe he meant if you've checked from DSM you can't be sane <-- clearly anyone who checks stuff in the DSM has OCD at least
00:21:55 <oerjan> although, do hypochondriacs usually go for _mental_ diseases?
00:22:21 <oerjan> (well, frequently. obviously not usually.)
00:23:48 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Because we need someone sane to vet our Lisp OS ideas.
00:24:06 <oerjan> lisp is just an easy isomorphism to combinatory logic with mutation, anyhow.
00:24:50 <alise> We so totally don't, anyway.
00:25:12 <oerjan> oh wait, you said _sane_. never mind.
00:26:20 <GreaseMonkey> technically you need to stick within reasonable limits
00:27:09 <GreaseMonkey> it's sane enough to reach levels of insanity which top pure insanity
00:27:20 <GreaseMonkey> this DOES kinda make sense if you think about it
00:27:53 <GreaseMonkey> "those guys run so fast and coordinated tied together, it's insane"
00:28:10 <GreaseMonkey> "those guys keep getting tangled up and jerking each other around with the rope, it's insane"
00:28:48 * oerjan knew he should have listened to the voices telling him to drop the subject
00:29:12 <GreaseMonkey> if there was no sanity in building the nukes, there would be no working nukes
00:29:29 <alise> And ... that's a bad thing?
00:30:00 <GreaseMonkey> well, the "firepower" is a higher level of insane than if you were to just let people be loose and uncoordinated
00:31:29 <alise> i can't tell why you'd use nukes as an example.
00:32:25 <GreaseMonkey> i think a nuke demonstrates the point of "organised insanity" in that the power of a nuke is INSANE
00:32:42 <GreaseMonkey> and by "mob" i mean a group of people gathered together
00:33:47 <alise> the people who thought up how to make nukes were mostly loner insane geniuses, I'd say.
00:33:50 <alise> the actual building, maybe not
00:35:08 <GreaseMonkey> and if the only people who had anything to do with the nukes were insane then they would not have been made
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00:39:02 <alise> GreaseMonkey: you're denouncing insanity in #esoteric
00:39:29 <GreaseMonkey> no i'm not, i'm promoting "organised insanity"
00:39:33 <calamari> ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 000082bc
00:39:40 <calamari> that's gotta be what is causing my segfaults
00:40:29 <GreaseMonkey> 4 A person who was involved in a car accident was mistakenly pronounced dead at the scene by an ambulance officer. However, during the removal of the body, the victim was found to be still alive. Rushed to hospital, they died there later.
00:40:51 <GreaseMonkey> *the* victim was found... *they* died there later
00:41:43 <calamari> *the* reader was anal... *they* were used to programming in esoteric languages
00:44:10 <alise> where's phantom_hoover got to...
00:45:03 <oerjan> conspiring with his phantom friends
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00:50:38 <zzo38> Now I got a "! Misplaced \omit" error.
00:51:00 <zzo38> It says "\multispan ->\omit" "\hline\end{tabulary}"
00:52:39 <zzo38> I also got undefined control sequence \TY@F4
00:52:50 <zzo38> I don't have any such control sequence in my document, I don't have \omit either
00:53:21 <alise> You're using some LaTeX command wrong, I guess; by causing it to do that.
00:53:43 <zzo38> Is "\hline\end{tabulary}" wrong?
00:53:51 <zzo38> Or am I using "\multispan" wrong?
00:54:20 <zzo38> I don't even have "\multispan" or "\omit" on this document!
00:55:03 <alise> If the hline thing is in your document, that must be wrong.
00:55:11 <alise> Put your document on sprunge and I'll have a look.
00:55:45 <zzo38> You can access it at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.tex
00:56:35 <oerjan> grmbl grmbl files that won't display in the browser
00:57:57 <zzo38> oerjan: I know in the browser I use I can push "t" to force display as text. But you can also use curl or wget to get the files, or use the view-source: function in the browser
00:58:07 <alise> zzo38: Strange: I cannot see an error in your code. Does it give a hint as to what line?
00:59:14 <zzo38> Also, there is a lot of other problems too, table headings are formatting incorrectly, it also badly formats tables that take up multiple pages
00:59:18 <oerjan> zzo38: yeah yeah i know it's useless to complain you all just say "install linux and firefox"
01:00:17 <zzo38> It also prints "_LOOKUP _OF_SKILLS" at the top of the table of contents, for some reason that I don't know.
01:00:19 <oerjan> (i can easily save it and open in vim, it's just one click too much to bother.)
01:01:44 <zzo38> Also, it *still* says the Introduction is on page 3 even after I converted it to LaTeX, even though the Introduction is actually on page 7, just like before.
01:02:59 <zzo38> Also the contents entries for the different spells levels are not lined up properly
01:04:18 <oerjan> the problem with view-source in IE is that it doesn't become available before the browser actually displays the document _somehow_. i cannot get past the save/choose program dialog box. oh well.
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01:05:07 <zzo38> Tables are still badly formatted, worse than before, even.
01:05:36 <zzo38> There are also two blank pages before chapter 5 and chapter 6
01:05:53 <GreaseMonkey> ooh, bet you can't guess what THIS does: http://www.ioccc.org/1994/tvr.c </sarcasm>
01:06:11 <alise> What table command are you using?
01:06:29 <alise> zzo38: Do not use multicolumn for tables!
01:06:42 <alise> zzo38: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Tables
01:06:48 <alise> use the tabular environment
01:06:59 <zzo38> GreaseMonkey: Something with X, I suppose?
01:08:42 <zzo38> alise: I did look at that tables
01:09:07 <zzo38> But {tabulary} is needed to make it automatically wrap text in columns
01:09:10 <alise> You're using multicolumn, though, which does not do the proper formatting for tables.
01:09:11 <zzo38> But it still does it badly
01:09:28 <alise> By default, if the text in a column is too wide for the page, LaTeX won’t automatically wrap it. Using p{width} you can define a special type of column which will wrap-around the text as in a normal paragraph. You can pass the width using any unit supported by LaTeX, such as pt and cm, or command lengths, such as \textwidth.You can find a complete list in appendix Useful Measurement Macros.
01:10:01 <zzo38> I can't use that because it has to be generated automatically from the .irm files
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01:10:58 <alise> \begin{tabularx}{\linewidth}{...tablespec...}
01:11:54 <zzo38> It also says I need "supertab" for multiple pages
01:12:28 <zzo38> I don't know which ones I need or how they should be used
01:12:48 <zzo38> And the examples on Wikibooks do use \multicolumn
01:13:02 <zzo38> Which I try to use for the table headings
01:13:07 <alise> I think tabularx will work, no?
01:13:50 <zzo38> Does tabularx do all of these things?
01:14:13 <zzo38> Look at the main.dvi file (in the same directory as main.tex) to see what is going wrong!!
01:15:21 <zzo38> See that the "Character-Start Feats" table is partly off the page (on page 30)
01:15:42 <alise> I wish this was a pdf, so I could search it...
01:16:03 <alise> zzo38: you have two tables without a paragraph between them!
01:16:12 <alise> you need to use \par -- or, in stuff you write yourself, two newlines
01:16:56 <zzo38> See on page 49 it is cut off
01:17:57 <zzo38> OK, now it is a PDF.
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01:18:44 <alise> What is wrong on 49?
01:19:35 <zzo38> The text is cut off (it should say "Duration" there), also there should be a line break before "Target"
01:19:56 <zzo38> Look also the list on page 48 is cut off
01:20:15 <zzo38> On page 47 there is too large space between section names
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01:21:09 <zzo38> And why is page numbers in table of contents is wrong?
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01:22:22 <zzo38> I think the formatting worked much better when it was Plain TeX, but that one had problems as well
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01:24:20 <zzo38> (I still have the files for printing it with Plain TeX, they are different files than the LaTeX files)
01:24:53 <zzo38> (The Plain TeX one is called "icoruma_tex.php" and "icoruma.tex" while the LaTeX one uses "icoruma_latex.php" only)
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01:25:55 <zzo38> At least I know how icoruma.tex works!
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01:26:53 <zzo38> Whether I use Plain TeX (and icoruma.tex) or if I use LaTeX, it is still wrong!
01:28:56 <alise> Did tabularx not work?
01:29:23 <zzo38> alise: It has the same problem and everything is still broken.
01:29:28 <zzo38> It isn't only the tables that are broken.
01:29:34 <alise> What else is broken?
01:29:59 <zzo38> A lot of things are cut off, spacing is all wrong, page numbers are still wrong.....
01:30:22 <zzo38> The formatting is worse than the macro packages I wrote myself.
01:30:39 <alise> You have probably used the wrong code.
01:30:48 <alise> Since your document still probably has non-LaTeXy things in there
01:31:06 <alise> What is wrong with the page numbers?
01:31:40 <zzo38> A lot of things are cut off, some of the tables are, also the list of spells and the spell descriptions are both cut off
01:31:52 <zzo38> The page numbers in the table of contents are not the actual page numbers for those sections
01:31:59 <zzo38> They are four less than the actual page numbers
01:34:47 <zzo38> LaTeX just seems much more complicated than Plain TeX, I am going back to using my own
01:37:07 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why VS2010 is working when the installer says it failed to install
01:37:31 <zzo38> Sgeo: Microsoft software is all like that.....
01:58:27 <zzo38> Maybe Later I will work on this printout of the rules for Icosahedral RPG.
01:58:34 <zzo38> But now I will do other things
01:59:56 <alise> Biiiiiiiiiig Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
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02:00:53 <zzo38> Now say them both fast together.
02:01:05 <zzo38> Do you ever wonder why women always get a place to sleep?
02:01:53 * oerjan has no idea what terrifytissue is supposed to mean
02:02:12 <zzo38> Well, I suppose it is because it is the weaker sex.
02:02:19 <zzo38> I don't think so. I believe they are stronger.
02:02:20 <alise> zzo38: You /are/ joking, right?
02:02:24 <zzo38> Do you know why I believe that?
02:02:30 <zzo38> Because they get enough sleep, that's why.
02:03:14 <zzo38> alise: Actually I am just quoting something from this pinball game, those are the speech they say in the background it is probably from some old movie or something like that
02:05:32 <zzo38> Wow! I'm really good! I hit all of the drop targets!
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02:18:34 <oerjan> death powered killing golems
02:18:55 <calamari> ooh death-powered, I like that :)
02:19:12 <calamari> is there a special power released in death?
02:20:35 <calamari> now to see if I can compile egobf for android
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02:40:26 <calamari> well this would seem to answer my question except it doesn't work http://www.uclibc.org/FAQ.html#gnu_malloc
02:41:43 <Gregor> calamari: It doesn't work? How so?
02:42:14 <calamari> egobfi8-bfi.o: In function `bf_interpret':
02:42:15 <calamari> bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x74): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc'
02:42:15 <calamari> bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x240): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc'
02:42:15 <calamari> bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x34c): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc'
02:42:44 <Gregor> But how does the solution not work.
02:42:57 <Gregor> Also, chalk that up to "when I wrote egobf, I sucked at autoconf" :P
02:42:57 <calamari> export jm_cv_func_working_malloc=yes
02:42:58 <calamari> export ac_cv_func_malloc_0_nonnull=yes
02:43:22 <Gregor> Did you murder your config.status first?
02:43:30 <Gregor> I think that'll override exports if you're not careful.
02:44:21 <calamari> didn't help.. going to see if I can figure out how to add MALLOC_GLIBC_COMPA
02:44:38 <Gregor> Uhh, presumably you're trying NOT to recompile libc here, right?
02:44:48 <Gregor> Oh, or are you not using Android's libc at all?
02:44:56 <calamari> oh I was assuming that was something for autoconf
02:45:17 <calamari> I'm using Android's libc.. bionic
02:45:36 <Gregor> Stupid fix: Configure, edit config.h to remove the relevant #define, and pray it doesn't regenerate it.
02:48:04 <alise> I think Gregor will like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMtZfW2z9dw
02:48:10 <alise> Available in stunning 1080p HD!
02:48:30 <alise> It just seems like the kind of thing Gregor would link in here ten times in five minutes. :P
02:49:45 <Gregor> Hey hey hey ... I don't relink things with that frequency all that often ...
02:50:11 <calamari> lol the subtitles are hd, that's about it
02:50:27 <alise> Nothing wrong with HD subtitles!
02:51:32 <Gregor> I'll spam link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Xa4bHcJu8 instead
02:51:47 <alise> You just don't appreciate the beauty of music.
03:08:37 <calamari> I guess egobfc doesn't make much sense to include
03:13:44 <calamari> Gregor: apt will have to wait because it requires libraries I don't have yet
03:16:22 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=364dzVsBs2o#t=0m57s <-- This washing machine hates tomato plants.
03:16:25 <alise> Really, really loathes them.
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04:05:51 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/computergameidea
04:06:01 <zzo38> Which idea do you like/dislike?
04:09:03 <alise> "Sokoban on drugs!!"
04:10:26 <zzo38> Do you have anything to expand any of these?
04:10:34 <zzo38> Like, to add additional comments?
04:14:22 <zzo38> Make it a game... with that title....
04:18:08 <Sgeo> Is SICP available free? Will I learn _good_ design from it?
04:19:56 <Sgeo> Dislike the title-only ideas
04:20:10 <alise> Sgeo: You won't learn good design from it because it's nothing like C#.
04:20:34 <Sgeo> alise, sarcasm, I presume? Or are you saying that I won't learn good _OOP_ design from it?
04:20:52 <alise> I meant you specifically won't because of C# Syndrome.
04:21:32 <Sgeo> I've known C# for less than a year
04:21:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I can understand you dislike the title-only ideas because it is only a title, it doesn't really help much, but it is possible to imagination more about what it might be like, a bit
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04:22:14 <Sgeo> I've known Python for... 6 years I think. If there's a Python syndrome, I may have it, but not C# Syndrome
04:22:52 <zzo38> Would you have any more specific ideas about anything on this list? Different people can have different ideas about it, I guess. And then if that is not specific enough other people (including me or even other people who did before) can add on to that, and so on
04:24:17 <Sgeo> <13> sounds like it would be an interesting puzzle game
04:24:43 <Sgeo> How is <5> not a subset of <8>?
04:24:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: It might, if I can think of how it might work
04:24:47 <oerjan> the magritte's pipes game could contain a lot of objects that look like pipes but turn out not to be when you pick them up
04:25:14 <oerjan> and pipe-looking landscape features, and such
04:25:54 <zzo38> Sgeo: <5> and <8> are two different things. By <8> I was thinking of something like "Tetanus on Drugs" (a GameBoy Advance game, Damian Yerrick wrote it and it is GNU GPL licensed)
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04:35:42 <zzo38> Did you know there are pink rotary payphones in Japan?
04:36:33 <zzo38> They are found in the back of issue 26:3 of 2600
04:38:03 <zzo38> cheater99: I don't know. I wonder if someone has tried.
04:38:11 <zzo38> (Do you mean blueboxed? Or redboxed?)
04:38:37 <zzo38> (Redbox is the one for payphones, usually)
04:39:11 <cheater99> as in, the one that lets you do free international phonecalls.
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04:39:29 <zzo38> cheater99: Yes, that is what the blue one can be used for
04:39:50 <cheater99> An early phreaking tool, the blue box is an electronic device that simulates a telephone operator's dialing console. It functions by replicating the tones used to switch long-distance calls and using them to route the user's own call, bypassing the normal switching mechanism. The most typical use of a blue box was to place free telephone calls
04:39:54 <zzo38> (Although to be specific, the blue box is simply used to generate a different type of tones than standard DTMF)
04:41:43 <zzo38> Silverbox is the one for generating sixteen DTMF tones. As far as anyone knows you can't make free calls with it, but it can be used to automatically dial phones or to send DTMF to a remote service that uses DTMF even if you have only a rotary phone.
04:42:04 <zzo38> However, I have tried this, the four extra tones do stop the dial tone on the phone I have at home!
04:43:02 <zzo38> So the service over here does recognize them, but might just treat any telephone number containing them as invalid, I don't actually know.
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05:15:33 <coppro> idea: language where some commands are of the form <duration> <noun> <conjunction> <noun>
05:37:35 <coppro> I just want "millenium hand and shrimp" to be legal
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06:28:02 <zzo38> You haven't written it in green--your notes will be all wrong.
06:28:57 <zzo38> My conversion program Icoruma->TeX (without LaTeX) works completely perfectly when there are no tables involved!
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13:20:29 <olsner> I always thought it was ais523
13:25:54 <ais523> does it really matter, though?
13:27:15 * Phantom_Hoover can't think of any other male names beginning with I...
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14:07:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i have thoughts on os, will discuss soon
14:08:32 <alise> sane people ruin oses
14:13:19 <thanatos> something more about sane people?
14:15:26 <alise> thanatos: this channel is for programming
14:15:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: busy atm will tell in a little while]
14:16:28 <thanatos> esoteric is about programming? :o
14:16:55 <alise> this channel is about esoteric programming languages
14:17:19 <alise> maybe try somewhere else than freenode, this is a programming network mostly, for an esoterica channel
14:17:38 <alise> thanatos: see the topic
14:17:42 <alise> * Topic for #esoteric is: (a(:^)*S):^ | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? (Wiki capable of running nearly-arbitrary code) Vote: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D
14:17:48 <alise> esolangs - esoteric languages
14:17:51 <alise> nearly-arbitrary code
14:17:55 <alise> or look at the logs
14:18:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: back me up here
14:19:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: gah! for how long?
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14:23:06 <alise> esoteric programming
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14:25:28 <alise> underload or one of cpressey's or oklopol's, not sure which
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14:26:25 <Fallensn0w> underload's easy to program in though xd
14:26:40 <alise> (cpressey = Befunge, noit o' mnain worb, 5000 others -- catseye.tc guy)
14:26:44 <alise> (oklopol = insane)
14:42:58 -!- nooga has joined.
14:51:12 <olsner> cpressey is probably one of the sanest persons in this channel
14:52:17 <oklopol> Fallensn0w: what have you done in underload?
14:53:23 <oklopol> oh fallen snow, i thought it was fall en[d]s now
14:54:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:56:41 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover is a bit slow isn't he
14:57:09 <oklopol> i guess this would make more sense if ais had chosen the name, now he'd have to have changed it
15:28:09 <olsner> sweet, Intercal is an awesome given name
15:28:15 <olsner> I wonder why I haven't realized before
15:40:50 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:48:34 <alise> <olsner> cpressey is probably one of the sanest persons in this channel
15:51:04 <alise> well he is the NIH every-system-sucks let's-reinvent-computing types; and, man, just look at his esolangs
15:51:33 <AnMaster> who is the sanest person here then?
15:51:35 <alise> actually while trying to figure out how Whothm works recently I ran into this quote from the documentation... (sec)
15:51:47 <alise> "I'd love to tell you about Whothm, but first I need to tell you about Joanie, the Gnostic Babysitter. Have you seen her? She's a very normal twelve-year-old girl, with very normal twelve-year-old girl concerns — she worries if her friends will make fun of her for liking different music than they do, worries if that cute boy in home room likes her or not, worries if she'll be able to achieve a transcendant state of gnosis at the moment of her physical de
15:51:47 <alise> ath so that her soul may be freed from the reincarnation cycle. Because, you see, she's a Gnostic. Not just curious about Gnosticism, not just going through a phase, or anything like that — Joanie is a die-hard, demiurge-rejecting, rotten-material-world-shunning Gnostic. And she charges $15 an hour.
15:51:47 <alise> OK, now I can tell you about Whothm."
15:51:55 <alise> So, yeah, I would very much doubt sanity.
15:52:04 <alise> AnMaster: Hehehe...
15:52:38 <olsner> alise: but... every system *does* suck, and computing *should* be reinvented :P
15:52:45 <alise> olsner: yes, but :)
15:52:47 <AnMaster> I would say ais except for INTERCAL and feather
15:52:55 <alise> ais is definitely crazy.
15:52:58 <alise> it's you. it's why you're boring
15:53:13 <alise> (*not POV, others have called you the sanest e.g. oerjan :D)
15:53:17 <AnMaster> alise, Deewiant is pretty sane too
15:53:35 <AnMaster> wait, nvm, x86-64 asm for that dobela interpreter
15:54:13 <AnMaster> alise, olsner seems quite sane
15:54:29 <AnMaster> can't remember him doing much but idling and saying a few lines every now and then
15:55:34 <AnMaster> alise, hm... Sgeo is not actually insane is he? ... Just obsessed.
15:55:51 <olsner> but it is true that I mostly idle around here...
15:56:27 <alise> AnMaster: necrophile
15:56:39 <alise> AnMaster: & thinks C# is nice
15:57:08 <AnMaster> that is really as good as dead
15:57:09 <alise> yes, & other old VRs
15:57:15 <alise> coppro invented the necrophile thing :P
15:57:19 <alise> "The main purpose of trigraphs and digraphs is so you can say "neener, neener, you didn't do it right" to some poor sap trying to write a tool that processes C and C++ source code." -- Walter Bright
15:57:29 <olsner> AnMaster: besides, all my esoteric projects are all idling right now, waiting for my compiler to mature so I have something to write them in :)
15:57:36 <alise> olsner: what, that M++ thing?
15:58:10 <AnMaster> alise, I have to admit... I used them for that a couple of times. Only against people who I knew wouldn't take it badly though
15:58:16 <AnMaster> alise, oh and what about cpp and TC?
15:58:35 <alise> AnMaster: I think cpp is on the border between TC and not.
15:58:52 <alise> If someone linked me to the Game of Life implementation I could see if the lists would work.
15:59:06 <AnMaster> game of life implementation of cpp?
15:59:13 <olsner> alise: nothing fancy really, kind of C-ish with modules instead of includes, and some random syntax changes
15:59:40 <alise> AnMaster: other way around
15:59:47 <alise> olsner: shame, i was hoping some crazy functional crap :)
15:59:52 <olsner> I have haskell for that
15:59:55 <AnMaster> alise, ah, I would link you, except I never heard about it before today
16:00:03 <alise> olsner: haskell is insufficiently theoretical (type system is too weak)
16:00:09 <alise> AnMaster: it's what spurred the TC cpp discussion
16:00:10 <alise> but it has a finite grid
16:00:13 <alise> so it's not in and of itself a proof
16:00:22 <alise> "in and of itself" is such a weird idiom
16:00:30 <olsner> well, I do have a couple of ideas for crazy functional crap... dunno if/when I'll get around to implementing any of them though
16:00:47 <AnMaster> alise, almost as weird as "x is all but y"
16:00:56 <AnMaster> (which is probably not weird to a native speaker)
16:01:38 <alise> at least "in and of itself" can be expanded to "in itself, and of itself"
16:01:48 <alise> "it's not, in itself, and of itself, a proof"
16:01:53 <alise> which is a lot more parseable
16:02:06 <alise> I bet Swedish has crazy idioms, though.
16:02:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/20100731_010-027.jpg -- it's quite color-bandy, since it was snapped with the phone's normal camera app with full-auto settings, and also the sun took a peek at some point so the lighting changed; I did try the "LDR, variable WB" exposure optimization, but it mostly got the foresty part the same green, but made the sky be horribly surreal.
16:02:32 <fizzie> (Should've just done raw with fcam, but it's a bit slower, and didn't want to inconvenience others.)
16:02:36 <olsner> otoh, since I've been reading TaPL I will aim to get a proper type system into this language
16:02:36 <alise> auto a = puts((char[:>)<%a='a'+'\a',-~a,!(int<:'a']){[!!'a':>="a"<:!a]%>});
16:02:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, tried ldr, variable but with camera response unchecked?
16:02:54 <alise> olsner: If it's as weak as Haskell's I will shoot you.
16:02:57 <AnMaster> that tends to give better results
16:02:58 <olsner> I've been thinking about just using simply typed lambda calculus as the type system
16:03:03 <alise> (If it has typeclasses I will shoot you.)
16:03:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, need a small error still
16:03:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: Hm, no; I could try that.
16:03:11 <alise> olsner: doesn't work
16:03:18 <alise> olsner: because, we need a type *, being the type of types
16:03:27 <alise> we conclude A->B in *
16:03:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's approximately from here: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=60.215859,21.292362&spn=0.080239,0.208569&t=h&z=13
16:03:40 <alise> we conclude \(x:A). (y:B) in A->B
16:03:46 <alise> olsner: ^ so we can see that this does not work
16:04:02 <alise> olsner: the original De Bruijn proof checker used that model but it caused problems, which is why the types are usually separated
16:04:27 <fizzie> AnMaster: Do you *have* to point out my lack of upload bandwidth every single time I share a picture? I'm depressed about it enough as is.
16:04:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, a tip: progressive jpeg tends to be a bit smaller than normal ones, for same quality setting
16:05:27 <fizzie> Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill.
16:05:36 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:05:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and make sure you set the exposure reference image to one of the good ones
16:05:50 -!- alise has joined.
16:05:55 <alise> someone paste the last few lines plz
16:06:03 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill.
16:06:04 <AnMaster> * alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:06:04 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and make sure you set the exposure reference image to one of the good ones
16:06:10 <alise> more than that, I need
16:06:15 <alise> I missed more due to freeze
16:06:20 <AnMaster> <alise> olsner: the original De Bruijn proof checker used that model but it caused problems, which is why the types are usually separated
16:06:21 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: Do you *have* to point out my lack of upload bandwidth every single time I share a picture? I'm depressed about it enough as is.
16:06:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> fizzie, a tip: progressive jpeg tends to be a bit smaller than normal ones, for same quality setting
16:06:27 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill.
16:06:46 <olsner> alise: hmm, I don't understand what you're saying, but do you have a reference to that De Bruijn proof checker you were talking about?
16:06:49 <alise> yeah, typing didn't work, nothing worked, ctrl+alt+f1 didn't work, just jerky mouse movements worked.
16:06:52 <fizzie> "Try drinking some antifreeze." (Note: do not actually try that.)
16:06:56 <alise> olsner: Freek has written about it.
16:07:07 <alise> olsner: anyway: do you mean just using the STLC type system?
16:07:13 <alise> olsner: I thought you meant using STLC terms as types
16:07:24 <olsner> using STLC terms as types
16:07:36 <alise> AnMaster: forgot to try
16:07:50 <alise> olsner: right. Well, you'd represent the type of a function from A to B as what, then?
16:08:00 <AnMaster> alise, nothing in logs after reboot?
16:08:14 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:08:42 <olsner> so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints
16:09:17 <olsner> (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though)
16:09:29 -!- alise has joined.
16:09:32 <alise> It's fizzie's damn picture.
16:09:40 <alise> Makes Firefox hang the system when loading.
16:09:53 <fizzie> alise: It's just 9000 pixels wide, it's not *that* big. Especially compared to what AnMaster tends to post.
16:09:57 <olsner> fail, I wrote two lines of response just between "alise has quit" and "alise has joined"
16:10:01 <alise> Well, firefox doesn't like it.
16:10:10 <olsner> <olsner> so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints
16:10:10 <olsner> <olsner> (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though)
16:10:10 <alise> 08:08:42 <olsner> so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints
16:10:10 <alise> 08:09:17 <olsner> (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though)
16:10:11 <fizzie> Perhaps it's the content. Your system can't handle the pristine wilderness!
16:10:24 <alise> olsner: how hideously pointless is that? that's equivalent to (void (*) (int, int))
16:10:47 <olsner> obviously, in reality you wouldn't use it to write pointless examples
16:10:50 <AnMaster> <fizzie> alise: It's just 9000 pixels wide, it's not *that* big. Especially compared to what AnMaster tends to post. <-- true
16:11:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, but I always use progressive jpeg
16:11:03 <alise> olsner: well anyway there has been a lot of good research done on type systems and i recommend you pick a better one ;)
16:11:05 <AnMaster> not sure if that affects anything
16:11:20 <alise> olsner: i guess O'Caml's type system might be a good one to look at?
16:11:31 <alise> then again, maybe your system will work and I am a hopeless ...theoretician; wow, that's a word.
16:11:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, I still wish I had the stuff needed to make a 360° spherical at full optical zoom. HDR.
16:11:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, that would be quite a bit over 100 MP iirc
16:11:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: Any sort of variable-wb seems to insist on freaky sky (but nicely matching greenery); I think it simply needs more-than-two-parameters color correction in order to make both the sky and the shrubberies (ni!) match.
16:12:15 <olsner> alise: it should surely "work" as in "produce types", the practical usability is a different question :)
16:12:38 <alise> olsner: of course.
16:12:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, very strange that though... That it would need more than 2 var wb
16:12:47 <oklopol> if types are first order beings, then why not just call them sets
16:12:59 <alise> oklopol: Coq and Agda do
16:13:06 <alise> oklopol: except Coq has Type with Set and Prop as descendants
16:13:10 <alise> since propositions aren't really sets that much.
16:13:14 <AnMaster> alise, since firefox here likes it
16:13:15 <alise> AnMaster: more than good enough
16:13:22 <alise> AnMaster: CPU isn't the fastest, but it blazes all the time
16:13:30 <AnMaster> alise, sempron 3300+, 1.5 GB RAM. 72 tabs in firefox
16:13:33 <alise> olsner: i do warn you that if you introduce a type system like that you will end up with a functional language with bad syntax, unintentionally :D
16:13:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: I guess the default camera app might do any sort of "color-correction" postprocessing. It does some sort of edge-enhancing thing and horribly artifacty noise reduction already.
16:13:40 <AnMaster> alise, a bit slow to zoom in and out but otherwise just fine
16:13:41 <alise> AnMaster: yeah, well, evidently there's some issue here with that imgae.
16:13:49 <alise> i don't really need you to brag about how your system manages it
16:14:21 <AnMaster> alise, I'm just pointing out that my old system manages it. Are you using that old thing with windows xp barely running on it?
16:14:24 <alise> What what what the Brontosaurus and Triceratops never existed
16:14:36 <alise> AnMaster: no, I'm running my good Toshiba
16:14:40 <alise> AnMaster: which has 4 GiB of RAM.
16:14:49 <AnMaster> alise, no smell of solder yet? ;P
16:14:57 <alise> and, yes, only a 1.3 GHz dual-core Core 2, but dammit, ghz don't matter, it's fast
16:15:06 <AnMaster> <alise> What what what the Brontosaurus and Triceratops never existed <-- ? The first got renamed didn't it? The second I have no clue about
16:15:10 <alise> and I usually have 100+ CSS-y Javascript-y tabs open in firefox, so nyah
16:15:11 <AnMaster> or do you mean something more recent?
16:15:24 <alise> http://gizmodo.com/5601514/the-triceratops-never-existed-it-was-actually-a-young-version-of-another-dinosaur
16:15:27 <alise> See the title in that URL.
16:15:35 <alise> So, yes, new news; just not breaking.
16:16:10 <olsner> hmm, I may also try to introduce type-functions that can produce code ... so many different ideas, I'll probably end up implementing none of them!
16:16:31 <alise> "It was already known that triceratops skulls changed throughout their development, but not that the final result was a torosaurus. Torosaurus will now be abolished as a species and specimens reassigned to Triceratops, says Horner."
16:16:41 <alise> So more shoddy Gizmodo reporting. This is why I read engadget!
16:16:48 <AnMaster> where is the date that was posted
16:16:53 <alise> olsner: type inferring is a bitch btw :P
16:16:58 <alise> AnMaster: sidebar at the top
16:17:02 <alise> gizmodo is also horribly laid out
16:17:05 <alise> ANOTHER REASON TO READ ENGADGET
16:17:17 <alise> although engadget's redesign is also shit.
16:17:29 <AnMaster> alise, I'm not sure how dinosaurs apply to either site
16:17:42 <olsner> alise: yeah, also it's awesome so I'd like to have that too :P
16:17:44 <alise> They tend to both include semi-random stuff the audience will like.
16:17:54 <alise> olsner: THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS
16:18:38 <AnMaster> how large were those young triceratops?
16:19:15 <alise> but yeah, dammit, "Torosaurus will now be abolished as a species and specimens reassigned to Triceratops, says Horner."
16:19:20 <alise> Gizmodo ruined my childhood TEMPORARILY.
16:19:43 <alise> And Gizmodo KEPT A STOLEN PRE-RELEASE IPHONE 4.
16:19:47 <alise> Engadget would NEVER be so evil.
16:19:52 <AnMaster> but I don't get why it would ruin your childhood
16:19:57 <alise> AnMaster: DINOSORZ
16:20:15 <alise> "I almost took this seriously and then I discovered it was on Gizmodo." --reddit THE PUBLIC ARE TIRING OF INFERIOR GADGETRY SITES
16:20:20 <alise> *I am only getting paid a lot to say this
16:22:42 <AnMaster> sorry, didn't get that. Too much static. Try resending with reed-solomon
16:23:59 <alise> Well, Ubuntu Rhythmbox has finally jumped off the deep-end and now opens on the Ubuntu One ... view, tab, whatever, rather than the library.
16:24:05 <alise> Clooooooooooooooooud Stooooooooooooooraaaaaaaaaage
16:25:01 <alise> Maybe it doesn't, maybe I did something. But I don't think so.
16:25:16 <AnMaster> huh, doesn't here. Maybe I uninstalled that part early on.
16:25:24 <AnMaster> since there is actually no such tab
16:25:42 <alise> Probably you hid the tab or something.
16:25:57 <alise> Hmm, now it starts in the proper tab.
16:26:09 <alise> AnMaster: You have the side pane on right?
16:26:13 <alise> Have you got "Stores" hidden?
16:26:22 <AnMaster> err, just closed it *reopens to check*
16:26:57 <alise> So, I gotta finds me a music player. Not Banshee, Banshee is iTunes.
16:27:02 <AnMaster> yes, says Library with several headings under it: (reverse i18ned titles): play queue, music, podcasts, radio
16:27:04 <alise> Maybe Quod Libet like last time, but *eh*
16:27:08 <AnMaster> then there is a playlist heading a bit below
16:27:14 <alise> AnMaster: and no Stores heading?
16:27:18 <alise> then you're not on 10.04.
16:27:33 <AnMaster> containing some "my hig...", "last pla..." and "most recently add.."
16:27:39 <alise> I don't like Exaile because it uses vertical tabs and those are an abomination
16:27:59 <alise> Dammit, why has nobody created something as good as Amarok 1 yet :P
16:28:02 <alise> (Amarok 2 is crap)
16:28:22 <AnMaster> alise, but I think I removed all packages that showed up on a search for ubuntu-one
16:28:30 <alise> AnMaster: That's probably it, then.
16:28:41 <alise> AnMaster: That probably uninstalled ubuntu-desktop. Maybe not the best idea.
16:28:53 <AnMaster> alise, no, ubuntu-desktop is still installed
16:29:01 <AnMaster> I think they were recommends instead of depends
16:29:08 <alise> I think I might do that.
16:29:15 <alise> Fucking Canonical.
16:29:26 <AnMaster> alise, of course with recommends you probably need to override some setting to make it treat it closer to suggests instead
16:29:29 <alise> How dare they try and make a profit, darned company :P
16:29:46 <alise> It is terribly intrusive though.
16:30:06 <alise> Grr, I really should just implement my Perfect Music Daemon and Client.
16:30:10 <AnMaster> very good to clean up the mess after upgrades ;P
16:30:19 <alise> AnMaster: you don't need debfoster
16:30:22 <alise> and it's deprecated since 2006
16:30:33 <alise> AnMaster: you do install with aptitude, right?
16:31:06 <AnMaster> alise, varies. apt-get, aptitude or synaptic
16:31:13 <alise> AnMaster: well, do not use apt-get. ever
16:31:24 <alise> why? it's like using dpkg. aptitude is the official debian package manager. And, furthermore:
16:31:28 <AnMaster> alise, it supports the "installed as dep" stuff
16:31:31 <alise> aptitude automatically debfosters on every action basically.
16:31:44 <alise> "As of 2006-01-01, debfoster is officially deprecated: aptitude does the same stuff as debfoster but integrated into the apt system. To convert your debfoster data to the aptitude database, use the conversion script."
16:31:48 <AnMaster> I only want it to do that when I tell it to
16:31:52 <alise> AnMaster: Okay, then: "apt-get autoremove".
16:31:57 <alise> Where's your debfoster now?
16:32:21 <AnMaster> alise, because it seems on jaunty the entire default package set was marked as manually installed by default
16:32:34 <AnMaster> and that didn't resolve completely after upgrading to lucid
16:32:51 <alise> Good lord, why do people suck so much as software.
16:33:29 <alise> Songbird? Wikipedia, why the fuck do you call SONGBIRD a music player? It's more like a hideous Firefoxed abomination that simultaneously rips off iTunes, makes it somehow SLOWER, and adds a bunch of crap!
16:33:39 <alise> "Linux support for Songbird was discontinued in April, 2010." and nothing of value was lost
16:33:59 <alise> AnMaster: tl;dr software sucks
16:34:02 <AnMaster> mozilla dropped linux support in a product?
16:34:24 <alise> Songbird isn't Mozilla.
16:34:30 <alise> It just uses Firefox as the base code or something.
16:34:36 <alise> Because it wants to be hellish and awful.
16:34:39 <alise> Which it succeeds at.
16:34:55 <alise> It is literally the biggest, slowest, most bloated piece of software that only irritates you that I have ever seen.
16:34:59 <alise> X has been displaced.
16:35:18 <AnMaster> alise, yes. Btw I started using mobile versions of sites that have that even on desktop. Stuff like the Swedish equiv of BBC and such
16:35:31 <AnMaster> loads like in a snap, unlike their normal site
16:35:35 <alise> Hee, in Britain our BBC has a well-designed website by default that loads instantly.
16:35:52 <alise> And it, unbelievably, has a clean and simple, typographically-oriented design!
16:36:04 <alise> /And/ it's actually standards-compliant, and uses /RDF/:
16:36:05 <alise> <head profile="http://dublincore.org/documents/dcq-html/">
16:36:12 <alise> /And/ their devs have blogs and stuff.
16:36:14 <AnMaster> alise, compare loading time: http://mobil.sr.se/ http://sr.se/
16:36:23 <alise> OUR NEWS CORPORATION IS MORE GEEKY THAN YOURS
16:36:33 <alise> AnMaster: Wow, sr.se loads slowly and is ugly.
16:36:42 <alise> http://mobil.sr.se/ is a bit craply designed for screen though, obviously.
16:37:00 <alise> AnMaster: Now compare with our BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10830485
16:37:02 <AnMaster> alise, wrt sr.se: agreed. It was better before the redesign about a years ago
16:37:08 <alise> (Might not load as quickly outside of the UK.)
16:37:16 <AnMaster> and yes the mobile one is obviously designed for stuff like my phone
16:37:22 <AnMaster> it works very well in opera mini on my phone
16:37:49 <alise> What I'm saying here is that if you don't care about human rights or not sucking, we are a better country than you.
16:37:50 <AnMaster> alise, that loads a bit slow from over here. Slightly faster than sr.se though
16:38:16 <alise> It takes maybe 1 second or so from completely refresh load (including all CSS, images, etc. from scratch (forced)).
16:38:28 <AnMaster> I assume you saw that stuff about Assange and media heaven on iceland?
16:38:33 <alise> With everything cached apart from the page it loads in maybe .3 seconds.
16:39:08 <alise> Heh, googling his name returns a bunch of anti-Wikileaks articles in the mainstream media.
16:39:12 <alise> Because of the Afghan stuff.
16:39:20 <alise> "Julian Assange: is 'Wikileaker' a crusade or ego trip?" --Telegraph
16:39:28 <AnMaster> alise, mobil.sr.se loads in a fraction of a second on a complete reload. the bbc link loads in about 1.5 seconds, sr.se in about 2
16:39:28 <alise> AnMaster: But no, I didn't see that.
16:39:39 <alise> Yeah, but complete reloads are pointless :P
16:39:42 <alise> And our site is better designed so nyah
16:39:46 <alise> And you don't have to use the mobile site
16:39:56 <alise> AnMaster: I did hear that Rejkyavik or whatever elected a joke party.
16:40:02 <alise> Which turned out to actually be the best party in the elections.
16:40:17 <AnMaster> alise, check that link out. Assange planted the idea originally from what I read
16:41:21 <alise> If only they had more than four people in the entire country.
16:41:29 <AnMaster> still, the laws are not in place, they just decided that they will design them and put them in place
16:41:47 <alise> (The four people are Bjork, two of the members of Sigur Rós (the other two are fictional), and the Prime Minister.)
16:41:57 <AnMaster> alise, there is about the same number of people in this Swedish equiv of county where I live and on Iceland. Slightly less on iceland iirc
16:43:03 <alise> AnMaster: a popular (well, in indie circles) post-rock band from Iceland.
16:43:36 <AnMaster> alise, anyway they have cheap energy on iceland. Thermal energy. Looks like a haven for green data centers as long as you put in a dust filter (ash in the heatsink can't be good!)
16:43:36 -!- cheater99 has joined.
16:43:54 <alise> Yeah. I just couldn't live somewhere so tiny, though.
16:44:25 <alise> Well, as far as people go.
16:44:51 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Islande_-_Rekjavik_du_haut_de_la_cath%C3%A9drale.JPG This is Central Rekjavík. 'Nuff said.
16:45:11 <AnMaster> how many inhabitants in Rekjavik?
16:45:57 <alise> 118,427 in 277.1 km^2. 200,852 in 1,062.24 km^2 in the Greater Reykjavík Area (i.e. the only metropolitan area in Iceland).
16:46:07 <alise> (that latter total includes Reykjavík itself)
16:46:11 <AnMaster> my guess is around the same as this town, which just happens to formally be a city. One of the last ones to become a city before they dropped the concept of special city rights (I think it was around 1920 or 1930 or so)
16:47:02 <alise> Total population of Iceland is 317,593, but the 100,000 or so not in the Greater Reykjavík Area just, like, live in volcanoes or something.
16:47:07 <alise> AnMaster: Well, it's still a very small place.
16:47:14 <alise> AnMaster: Besides.
16:47:20 <alise> AnMaster: The Greater Reykjavík Area is a large area of Iceland.
16:47:32 <AnMaster> yeah, slightly larger than the largest city of this county-equiv.
16:47:34 <alise> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/H%C3%B6fu%C3%B0borgarsv%C3%A6%C3%B0i.svg
16:47:40 <alise> AnMaster: That red portion is the Greater Reykjavík Area.
16:47:45 <alise> So really it's a county.
16:47:54 <alise> And consider that outside of there there is /no metropolises/.
16:47:58 <alise> Just villages and the like.
16:48:04 <alise> *there are /no metropolises/.
16:48:18 <AnMaster> I'm not sure I would call Reykjavík a metropolis as such though
16:48:48 <alise> Newcastle, the nearest city to where I live, has 273,600 people in just 113 km^2.
16:48:52 <AnMaster> In fact I'm pretty sure I *wouldn't*
16:49:08 <alise> Yeah, but it's a "regular city" so to speak.
16:49:31 <alise> Oh, and Tyneside, a very small portion of England around it, has 800,000.
16:49:36 <AnMaster> alise, remember that Stockholm including suburbs has about 1 000 000 inhabitants iirc
16:49:36 <alise> So yeah: Iceland is /almost empty/.
16:49:41 <AnMaster> London is way larger than that
16:49:49 <alise> AnMaster: Well, Reykjavík has lots of technology and the like.
16:49:58 <AnMaster> so UK "regular city" is larger than Swedish regular city
16:50:03 <alise> It is a very modern city with a lot of enterpriseyness (in fact, all of it in the country!) and the like.
16:50:06 <alise> AnMaster: London is not a regular city.
16:50:18 <AnMaster> alise, well nor is Stockholm around here
16:50:19 <alise> AnMaster: London is /fucking huge/ by anyone's standards.
16:50:28 <alise> Greater London has /7,556,900 people/.
16:50:34 <AnMaster> alise, Stockholm is fucking huge by Swedish standards!
16:50:39 <alise> In just 1,572 km^2.
16:50:57 <AnMaster> and the Icelandic people must lack words to describe the size of london
16:51:15 <alise> "Thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand Reykjavík."
16:51:20 <alise> "Sorry, how many thousands was that?"
16:51:39 <AnMaster> alise, scientific notation for the win
16:53:08 <alise> Maybe I should download those Afghan documents in case they get taken down.
16:53:18 <alise> Although they've gotta be on a billion torrents by now.
16:53:26 <alise> AnMaster: "This document, released by WikiLeaks on February 18th 2010 at 19:00 UTC, describes meetings between embassy chief Sam Watson (CDA) and members of the Icelandic government, together with British Ambassador Ian Whiting."
16:53:43 <alise> AnMaster: So much for supporting the Icelandic government for the Modern Media Initiative :D
16:53:49 <AnMaster> alise, oh and London represents about 81% of the entire Swedish population (based on your figure and wikipedia's figure for the Swedish population)
16:54:08 <alise> London is basically a tiny country. :P
16:54:30 <fizzie> This (Finland) is a pretty empty place too, though the Helsinki metropolitan area is approaching something reasonably city-like in most scales; there's a tiny bit over a million in what's counted as the "urban area", and something like 1.3 million in those regions where 10 % or more of people have their jobs in Helsinki.
16:54:42 <AnMaster> I think I would like Iceland, apart from the language
16:55:02 <alise> The language is pretty beautiful though.
16:55:11 <alise> fizzie: You have... things and people and other cities, though.
16:55:15 <AnMaster> yeah but learning it? not a chance
16:55:24 <AnMaster> I hate larger cities. a town on about 20000 is quite nice
16:55:26 <alise> "# U.S. Embassy profiles on Icelandic PM, Foreign Minister, Ambassador"
16:55:38 <alise> Are you /sure/ Iceland decided that initiative because of Wikileaks? :D
16:55:57 <alise> Where I am is quite a nice town.
16:56:10 <alise> But it is a bit ... empty.
16:56:14 <AnMaster> alise, well, I read a few news articles and watched a youtube interview of Assange from 2009
16:56:17 <alise> There's nothing much you can do at all, and few people.
16:56:22 <AnMaster> it was that youtube video that made me look this up
16:56:27 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexham
16:56:32 <AnMaster> think it was from December 2009
16:56:52 <alise> The Abbey is a bit creepy.
16:56:58 <fizzie> Iceland has a very nice ranking on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density list -- 232nd, in a list of 239.
16:57:17 <alise> fizzie: Fucking Greenland!
16:57:29 <alise> Hey, Australia is cheating.
16:57:36 <AnMaster> anyway that number is not very representative, I mean it varies hugely between different parts of most countries
16:57:41 <fizzie> Norway and Finland both are out of the top-200, but Sweden's in (194th).
16:57:42 <alise> Australia is totally dense in all the places where /there's actually any people/ :P
16:58:01 <alise> Rather than just three people playing digeredoos or however you spell it per square million kilometers.
16:58:07 <AnMaster> having some kind of graph showing distribution of it would be nice, I admit I have to work a bit on what exactly to show
16:58:16 <fizzie> It's representative of the fraction of people in the country and area of the country, nothing more, nothing less.
16:58:17 <AnMaster> a map with color coding for density is obvious
16:58:24 <AnMaster> but I wanted a x/y style graph
16:58:38 <alise> Macau has 18,534.247 people per square kilometre
16:59:06 <alise> (Note: It is only 29.2 km^2.)
16:59:09 <AnMaster> I mean, Sweden is very very unevenly distributed
16:59:17 <alise> Whoa, holy shit, Monaco is only 1.95 km^2. So what do they have apart from the Formula 1 track?
16:59:28 <fizzie> Everything is very unevenly distributed. Well, except places like Monaco.
16:59:31 <AnMaster> in north Sweden you can go for miles without getting a GSM signal (unless you have Telia)
16:59:54 <AnMaster> and telia is only because the govt (used to?) own a large part of their shares
16:59:58 <AnMaster> alise, I was getting to that :P
17:00:31 <alise> "iPhone 4: Nu förändras allt. Igen."
17:00:35 <alise> Sweden is really bad at making things sound elegant.
17:00:42 <AnMaster> alise, they used to be a completely state owned thing. But then there was that rage for making govt stuff private companies during the 1990s
17:00:43 <alise> Almost as bad as German.
17:00:51 <alise> AnMaster: We had that!
17:01:00 <fizzie> "Now everything changes. Again."
17:01:04 <AnMaster> <alise> "iPhone 4: Nu förändras allt. Igen." <-- "Now everything change. Again."
17:01:07 <alise> Wait ... that doesn't work.
17:01:10 <AnMaster> I don't think You *can* make that sound good
17:01:17 <AnMaster> it is like the worst slogan ever.
17:01:27 <alise> and I think Telia invented it
17:01:31 <alise> it doesn't appear on Apple's site.
17:01:38 <alise> "This changes everything. Again."
17:01:48 <alise> slightly better than "Now everything changes. Again."
17:01:52 <AnMaster> alise, telia managed to say that maemo was a browser in their desc for n900
17:01:59 <alise> At least it tells you /what/ is doing the changing.
17:02:32 <fizzie> alise: It's "Nyt kaikki muuttuu. Taas." (which is very close to "Now everything changes. Again.") on Sonera's (the Finnish iPhone exclusivity-holder) site.
17:02:39 <alise> Hey, Apple finally did what they should have done instead of the Mighty Mouse, and released their laptop touchpad as a standalone device.
17:02:42 <alise> Was that really so hard?
17:02:48 <alise> AnMaster: TeliaSonera.
17:02:49 <AnMaster> Isn't it TeliaSonera these days? Actually
17:02:59 <alise> WHY DO I KNOW THAT.
17:03:01 <alise> AnMaster: sonera in finland
17:03:03 <alise> http://www.sonera.fi/
17:03:08 <fizzie> The brand's still called Sonera.
17:03:09 <alise> so {Telia, Sonera} are brands of TeliaSonera
17:03:22 <AnMaster> I mean, on stuff like the SIM cards and such it says Telia
17:03:28 <fizzie> The corporation's official name has Telia in it, I believe.
17:03:56 <AnMaster> I believe they use TeliaSonera for there tire1 stuff
17:04:11 <fizzie> Well, there might be also a company called "Sonera" still; corporate ownership is a jungle.
17:04:29 <alise> "# Fontvieille was added as fourth ward, a newly constructed area reclaimed from the sea (in the 1970s)"
17:04:35 <alise> Dammit, we deserve more space! RECLAIM THE SEA.
17:04:36 <AnMaster> why do I always mix up tire and tier
17:04:43 <fizzie> http://www.teliasonera.com/Markets-and-Brands/ lists that Telia, Halebop (in Sweden) and Sonera, TeleFinland (in Finland) are "majority-owned companies" of TeliaSonera.
17:05:16 <AnMaster> oh yeah, halebop is the so-called low price brand
17:05:27 <alise> "Note: for statistical purposes, the wards of Monaco are further subdivided into 173 city blocks (îlots)"
17:05:33 <alise> THE WHOLE COUNTRY IS LESS THAN 2 KM^2
17:05:39 <AnMaster> only web support. And when I calculated on the costs, telia turned out cheaper
17:05:41 <alise> HOW CAN YOU SUBDIVIDE IT INTO 6 FUCKING REGIONS
17:05:44 <olsner> I thought halebop was exclusively pre-paid cards?
17:05:46 <alise> THEN SUBDIVIDE THOSE INTO 173
17:05:51 <fizzie> Also the so-called "obnoxious phone sales" brand.
17:05:54 <alise> each îlot must be like
17:06:01 <alise> one square millimetre
17:06:01 <AnMaster> that was due to sucky student discounts for halebop and better ones for telia
17:06:29 <alise> fizzie: http://www.tele.fi/
17:06:33 <alise> The person scares me.
17:06:46 <alise> http://www.halebop.se/start
17:06:51 <alise> The woman scares me.
17:06:51 <fizzie> alise: Oh gods, the guy. You should see the animated commercials.
17:06:57 <alise> Also every other drawing.
17:07:14 <alise> fizzie: Thanks to the power of YouTube, I can.
17:07:18 <fizzie> alise: Yes, it seems you can.
17:07:29 <fizzie> Try the "skeittimummo" one for starters.
17:07:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it as bad as that ISP... I think it is bredbandsbolaget or perhaps comhem? They use some animated figure too
17:07:30 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-xPfKnlFc
17:07:50 <fizzie> It seems that you selected the right one independently, too.
17:07:56 <alise> Bredbandsbolaget are the only Swedish ISP to offer 100 Mb/s internet, I think.
17:07:57 <alise> Why do I Know that.
17:08:12 <alise> fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRYFwX-H3nY A 3D one.
17:08:39 <olsner> I don't watch television so I wouldn't have seen any such adverts
17:08:46 <olsner> alise: plenty others do too
17:09:12 <AnMaster> and tele2 use a sheep. as a stupid play on sheep and cheap. which aren't even pronounced the same way, but do happen to sound quite close if you aren't good at English, due to Swedish missing one of those sound variants
17:09:24 <fizzie> We don't have a TV either, but I've still seen those commercials here and there; horrible.
17:10:24 <AnMaster> <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-xPfKnlFc <-- oh god. What a failure
17:10:40 <AnMaster> I don't watch TV. Could be as bad here. Don't know
17:10:42 <alise> Has anyone listened to an HDCD?
17:10:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's supposed to be "hip", you see.
17:10:52 <olsner> alise: I have comhem 100/10 right now, used to have bahnhof before I moved here (which was technically 100/10 but they didn't seem to actually limit the upload)
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17:11:35 <AnMaster> remember that incomprehensible ad about cars. VW I think
17:11:53 <AnMaster> this reminds me of that. But worse
17:12:06 <alise> Volkswagen adverts tend to be a bit strange.
17:12:16 <AnMaster> alise, wasn't there something about pimp your car
17:12:22 <alise> Nobody listened to an HDCD?
17:12:56 <alise> Some patented extension to Redbook stuffing more quality in there, some tricks to get 20 bits of signal out of 16 bit samples it seems.
17:13:00 <alise> Now owned by Microsoft.
17:13:22 <AnMaster> alise, 20 bits out of 16? Go ask CSI for that
17:13:25 <alise> I'm doing some piracy; one of the rips is from the HDCD, so I'm just wondering whether it's worthwhile at all.
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17:13:33 <alise> HDCD encodes the equivalent of 20 bits worth of data in a 16-bit digital audio signal by using custom dithering, audio filters, and some reversible amplitude and gain encoding; Peak Extend, which is a reversible soft limiter and Low Level Range Extend, which is a reversible gain on low-level signals. There is thus a benefit at the expense of a very minor increase in noise.[2][3][4][5]
17:13:33 <alise> HDCD encoding places a control signal in the least significant bit of a small subset of the 16-bit Red Book audio samples (a technique known as in-band signaling). The HDCD decoder in the consumer's CD or DVD player, if present, responds to the signal. If no decoder is present, the disc will be played as a regular CD.
17:13:34 <alise> In itself, the use of the first bit in the dithered least significant bit stream will degrade the sound quality on a non-HDCD player by decreasing the signal-to-noise ratio but only by a minuscule amount. HDCD Peak Extension, if chosen in HDCD mastering, will apply compression to the peaks which will be audible in playback on a non-HDCD system which does not apply the appropriate expansion curve.
17:13:55 <fizzie> Yes, based on the description it's more like 20 bits of dynamic range than 20 bits of precision.
17:14:19 <AnMaster> good thing I haven't run into them. I hate noise
17:14:28 <alise> You don't have golden ears.
17:14:36 <alise> You can't hear it.
17:14:36 <AnMaster> alise, and I doubt I could hear the difference between 16 and 20 bits
17:14:52 <alise> Hehe, if AnMaster is horrified by that, wait until he finds out what psychoacoustic encoders do. (I bet he thinks he can distinguish LAME -V2 from FLAC...)
17:15:27 <AnMaster> alise, no I don't. I do however think I can hear a difference between your average non-lame encoder and flac :P
17:15:50 <alise> Well, if you mean the original one, or that awful one that I forget its name.
17:16:20 <fizzie> Doubtfully you could then hear the difference between 15 bits and 16 bits (w.r.t. added noise), especially if they're being clever with how it alters the least significant bit, and it sounds like they are.
17:16:54 <alise> Wait, why don't I just rip my own copy of the album.
17:17:00 <alise> Oh, right. I don't have a CD drive.
17:17:51 <alise> Eh, I guess I am too resistant to change; I will just download the regular FLAC rip.
17:18:02 <AnMaster> alise, so you installed linux with usb stick?
17:18:04 <alise> ...although the HDCD version does have more seeders...
17:18:49 <AnMaster> alise, I'm pretty sure you can play an ISO
17:18:50 <alise> AnMaster: Actually, I had no USB stick to hand! I used unetbootin -- random Linux ISO to USB stick + if on Windows USB bootloader installed, program, very useful -- to extract the Ubuntu ISO to the Windows drive (it can do that).
17:18:57 <AnMaster> if nothing else, by using loop mount
17:19:00 <alise> I then booted up with the Unetbootin option in the Windows bootloader on next boot.
17:19:13 <alise> And voilà: it booted Ubuntu from the Windows drive.
17:19:28 <alise> Partitioning was fun, since it saw the CD-ROM drive weirdly as it was on another partition, virtual and stuff.
17:19:37 <alise> So I had to do some lazy, forced unmounting, then remounting it so the installer didn't break.
17:20:09 <AnMaster> alise, had to work on first try, I mean. you get one chance, loading the iso into ram. And then once you overwrite it, it has to work
17:20:34 <alise> No, I failed the first time and even ended up with a GRUB 2 without any files, which could do nothing.
17:20:34 <AnMaster> alise, unless you are dual booting?
17:20:38 <alise> Eventually I fixed it with a USB stick.
17:20:40 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, dual booting.
17:20:47 <alise> AnMaster: This laptop helpfully came with a "data" partition on half the disk.
17:20:49 <alise> So I just used that.
17:21:14 <alise> Specifically, I used Unetbootin on the really shitty computer to get a USB stick with GRUB on it.
17:21:20 <alise> I then used GRUB to chainload the Windows bootloader.
17:21:27 <alise> Once booted in, I used Unetbootin again, and this time did it right.
17:21:34 <alise> And, unbelievably, it worked.
17:21:39 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, separate OS/data partition.
17:21:40 <alise> Like /home partition.
17:22:07 <alise> Hmm, why do I have six and a half gigabytes of swap?
17:22:18 <alise> AnMaster: 250 GB total.
17:22:48 <alise> AnMaster: 419 MB of what I think is some restore partition, 125 GB unused stock Toshiba-branded Windows 7, 118 GB ext4 Ubuntu, 6.4 GB inexplicable swap.
17:23:14 <alise> Consider that this laptop has a battery that lasts almost as long as a netbook's, is basically as light as a MacBook Air,
17:23:15 <fizzie> You can't "play an ISO" if you mean a regular .iso image of an audio CD, because regular .iso images are made of the 2048-byte data sectors, while audio CDs put 2352 bytes of audio data per frame, with less error-correction code.
17:23:32 <alise> has a wonderful screen that is glossy yet this is unnoticeable, but since it's not matte it's usable in daylight, and very high dpi,
17:23:40 <alise> has a good keyboard for a laptop
17:24:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, wouldn't that be reflected in the iso file?
17:24:50 <alise> I'm voluntarily using this laptop instead of my iMac. So, yeah, I like it.
17:24:53 <AnMaster> alise, does it have fluid drains from the keyboard?
17:25:06 <alise> No. Wouldn't you just tell me not to spill things, anyway?
17:25:14 <alise> "Gee, you shouldn't be drinking near the computer."
17:25:19 <alise> No, but the trackpad is good and I'm just using a mouse.
17:25:34 <AnMaster> alise, well I would avoid spilling things. It however nice to know that just in case, it is there
17:25:40 <alise> I never said it's perfect. But all that list I gave you are things my laptop has and yours doesn't. :P
17:25:50 <alise> I drink near the computer, I'm just not in the habit of spilling things.
17:26:03 <alise> Besides, there's a protective layer of some sort underneath the keyboard, obviously; so you could just drain it manually if you really did spill something.
17:26:08 <AnMaster> still, nice to know just in case, at university and such, Someone else might have a water bottle nearby
17:26:59 <alise> It's not like there's a circuit board directly underneath.
17:26:59 <AnMaster> alise, how many express card slots?
17:27:05 <alise> AnMaster: 0. Thank god.
17:27:14 <alise> I never said it was your ideal laptop, just that it was mine.
17:27:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, because there's no metadata in the "file format", if you can call it that; it's just a dump of the data portion of a data CD. You couldn't even have multiple tracks in a .iso image. You can of course have a bit-exact audio CD image (in the .bin/.cue format, or some others), but it won't be a "ISO image" in the usual sense.
17:27:26 <AnMaster> alise, well, I don't use the express card slot
17:27:30 <alise> AnMaster: PC Card esque things are a bit ... awful.
17:27:31 <AnMaster> it is nice to have, just in case
17:27:42 <alise> Okay, so it's not even that big a deal. But!
17:27:48 <alise> The sides are all filled up.
17:28:05 <alise> I won't sacrifice a display port, one of the four USB ports, the Ethernet port, etc. for it.
17:28:09 <alise> Wait, maybe that is...
17:28:16 <alise> Maybe an SD card slot.
17:28:31 <AnMaster> one useless feature on my laptop: softmodem. There is a modem port at the back. I don't know why anyone still puts that in
17:28:36 <fizzie> ExpressCard is so confusing; there's all kinds of /34 or /54 things, what's up with the slashes. I grew up with PCMCIA/CardBus, and it was good enough for me. Get off my lawn!
17:29:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, iirc I have one express card slot and one PC Card. Or something like that. When looking into the slots the connectors are different at the back anyway
17:30:21 <AnMaster> however, a better use for that area would actually be re-arranging the internal components to have a larger battery pack instead
17:30:24 <fizzie> Right, they would be. ExpressCard/54 and CardBus/"PC Card" have the same width, but the PC Card connector is full-width.
17:31:28 <AnMaster> yeah, just checked, bottom one full width and top one less than full width
17:32:15 <alise> Two on left, two on right.
17:32:36 <alise> Ha ha ha, wait, I don't give a shit.
17:32:56 <alise> Or, at least, /some/ digital display connector.
17:33:01 <alise> They're so hard to tell apart these days.
17:33:16 <AnMaster> alise, well, which one? isn't there some marking at it indicating which one
17:33:28 <alise> Representing a screen.
17:33:40 <AnMaster> that is what I have about the vga port on this
17:34:02 <fizzie> It's especially hard now that they have three different sizes of standard HDMI ports.
17:34:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: Probably they were jealous of USB, which also has "normal", "mini" and "micro" variants.
17:34:40 <AnMaster> alise, check xrandr. It just might tell you something useful
17:34:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: The three HDMI ports are also normal, mini and micro.
17:35:01 <AnMaster> except mine tells me that VGA1, LVDS1, HDMI1, DP1 and DP2 all exist
17:35:03 <alise> HDMI1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
17:35:08 <alise> DP1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
17:35:08 <alise> DP2 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
17:35:15 <alise> LVDS1 has the resolution list.
17:35:17 <alise> And the others don't.
17:35:30 <AnMaster> the other would contain external, if connected
17:35:53 <AnMaster> it can't list monitor resolutions for unconnected monitors, obviously
17:35:56 <alise> Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 1366 x 768, maximum 8192 x 8192
17:36:00 <alise> 8192 x 8192, fuck yeah
17:36:06 <alise> Will that fry my screen if I try it? :D
17:36:19 <AnMaster> alise, that is X support or something
17:36:27 <AnMaster> you can't get that on the screen
17:36:29 <alise> Will it downscale it for my screen?
17:36:46 <AnMaster> alise, video mode not supported error *probably*, but who knows
17:36:58 <AnMaster> alise, you might get that old style scrollable virtual screen thing of X
17:37:00 <fizzie> If it's not on the actual resolution list, it most probably won't do anything.
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17:37:21 <AnMaster> on my desktop I get: Screen 0: minimum 320 x 240, current 1680 x 1050, maximum 1680 x 1050
17:37:28 <AnMaster> since I know the card supports more
17:37:31 <fizzie> Though I guess changing the virtual screen size is possible too; I just thought xrandr only handles the physical state of outputs.
17:37:53 <AnMaster> wait, I don't think the xrandr thing is loaded
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17:38:05 <AnMaster> there is no invert stuff and such
17:38:23 <AnMaster> indeed, not in the modules list
17:38:27 <fizzie> What, no support for rotations?
17:38:36 <fizzie> Oh, is this the nvidia binary driver?
17:38:54 <fizzie> It has horrible xrandr support.
17:39:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay. but until noveau supports 3D well enough for my needs I'm stuck on it.
17:40:01 <fizzie> There's some sort of attempted support that if you pass Option "RandRRotation" to the nvidia driver, it'll try to fake it so that you can set the orientation with it.
17:40:21 <alise> How can I tell what card I have again? I don't know much about this system.
17:40:40 <AnMaster> alise, lspci, Xorg.0.log, dmesg, lshw ?
17:40:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: On the other hand, "Workstation RGB or CI overlay visuals will function at lower performance and the video overlay will not be available when RandRRotation is enabled."
17:40:59 <fizzie> OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 7600 GT/PCI/SSE2
17:41:36 <alise> It has even been reported, although apparently without historical documentation, that Adolf Hitler was influenced by concave hollow-Earth ideas and sent an expedition in an unsuccessful attempt to spy on the British fleet by aiming infrared cameras up into the sky[7] (Wagner, 1999).[8]
17:42:12 <fizzie> What is a shame is that good old "ethtool --identify" ("initiates adapter-specific action intended to enable an operator to easily identify the adapter by sight. Typically this involves blinking one or more LEDs on the specific ethernet port") isn't -- I think; I haven't really made a survey out of this -- implemented by many modernish drivers.
17:42:13 <alise> fizzie: I have no such line in my glxinfo.
17:42:37 <fizzie> Well, "lspci" pretty often works too.
17:42:45 <alise> OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset GEM 20091221 2009Q4
17:42:46 <AnMaster> OpenGL vendor string: Tungsten Graphics, Inc
17:42:46 <AnMaster> OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset GEM 20091221 2009Q4
17:42:55 <alise> So /that's/ why the graphics are so good on this.
17:43:06 <alise> AnMaster: the Mesa developers, I think
17:43:07 <AnMaster> alise, hey you have same as mine
17:43:17 <alise> Great card, innit.
17:43:24 <alise> The Mesa 3D Graphics Library Developer(s) VMware (previously Tungsten Graphics)[1]
17:43:29 <AnMaster> alise, might have improved recently
17:43:32 <alise> AnMaster: Well, I like it.
17:43:35 <alise> Works great with Linux.
17:43:53 <fizzie> Tungsten Graphics apparently also maintain DRI.
17:43:56 <AnMaster> alise, well, it (used to?) render some games incorrectly. But I haven't tried them since jaunty
17:44:07 <alise> *sigh* I hate light pollution.
17:44:20 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Light_pollution_country_versus_city.png
17:44:41 <alise> What I wouldn't give to live in somewhere with as wonderful skies as the top image but with, you know, modern conveniences.
17:45:31 <AnMaster> alise, oh and, last I tried (again under jaunty) my laptop failed to drive my desktop monitor at full res, It supported lower and higher but not the same as native
17:45:58 <fizzie> Around here it looks like the lower pic, except more orange. (We have lots of low-pressure sodium-vapor streetlights.)
17:47:24 * alise downloads the HDCD rip.
17:47:30 <alise> It's the only one with enough seeders.
17:48:03 <fizzie> Does the info say if it's done by actually decoding the HDCD signal, or just out of the HDCD CD?
17:48:19 <fizzie> (It sounds like software support for HDCD isn't exactly widespread, since, you know, patented.)
17:48:30 <alise> fizzie: Decoded with DSP.
17:48:42 <alise> Into a 24-bit container, with 4 empty bits.
17:49:01 <fizzie> Ah, well, that's good, then.
17:49:48 <alise> A lot of blab in the comments about how zomg-amazing the drums are but, uh, I have a feeling they're full of shit.
17:49:56 <alise> I'm not sure if I have a 24-bit soundcard. How could I check?
17:51:22 <alise> Does anyone still use cdparanoia these days, by the way? I like that little program.
17:51:26 <alise> Huh, it's still developed.
17:51:46 <alise> Sorry, "CDDA Paranoia". :P
17:52:00 <alise> [[Cdparanoia is a Compact Disc Digital Audio (CDDA) Digital Audio Extraction (DAE) tool, commonly known on the net as a 'ripper'.]]
17:52:19 <AnMaster> alise, your laptop does gbit ethernet?
17:52:19 <fizzie> Err... well, you could try "aplay -l" and then looking in the internet for the chipset name it gives. I'm not sure if there's any tool that directly would tell you what it managed to open or not.
17:52:43 <alise> AnMaster: Probably. "How can I check?"
17:52:43 <AnMaster> <alise> Does anyone still use cdparanoia these days, by the way? I like that little program. <-- erhm, me?
17:53:02 <alise> fizzie: Just "HDA Intel".
17:53:11 <alise> HD, so presumably 24-bit.
17:53:15 <alise> HD Audio and what not.
17:53:17 <AnMaster> 04:00.0 Ethernet controller: Broadcom Corporation NetLink BCM5787M Gigabit Ethernet PCI Express (rev 02)
17:53:24 <alise> 07:00.0 Ethernet controller: Atheros Communications Atheros AR8132 / L1c Gigabit Ethernet Adapter (rev c0)
17:53:49 <alise> "Hardware based on Intel HD Audio specifications is capable of delivering 192-kHz 32-bit quality for two channels, and 96-kHz 32-bit for up to eight channels." Although of course that says nothing about my hardware.
17:53:56 <alise> "However, as of 2008[update], most audio hardware manufacturers do not implement the full high-end specification, especially 32-bit sampling resolution."
17:54:08 <alise> IN MY DAY WE HAD AC'97.
17:54:10 <alise> And we *liked* it.
17:54:19 <fizzie> You could try playing out your fancy 24-bit file, and then checking "pactl list"'s horribly long output as to what is the "Sample Specification" for the output sink it's going to.
17:54:26 <AnMaster> alise, indeed. intel hda in my laptop too. Crappier sound than sb live 5.1 in desktop
17:54:38 <alise> Well, I have crappy laptop speakers. So I don't care.
17:54:44 <alise> Which makes this 24-bit thing doubly pointless, but, uh.
17:54:47 <alise> Actually the speakers aren't crappy.
17:54:53 <alise> They're very good for laptop speakers; very good.
17:55:02 <fizzie> (Of course this assumes pulse would properly grok that the hardware supports 24-bit audio and not down-convert it.)
17:55:04 <AnMaster> oh the speakers, they are crappy in my laptop. I compared with moving headphones
17:55:08 <alise> Not so good on the bass, yes... but still very good on the bass, compared to the tinny crap you get.
17:55:19 <alise> Yeah, they're crappy, but all laptop speakers are. I'm relatively happy with these ones.
17:55:21 <alise> A bit too quiet though.
17:55:38 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:55:54 <alise> Anyone remember when Plextor was THE drive to get for audio extraction?
17:56:01 <fizzie> Well, *my* laptop has a potentiometer-based hardware volume control knob, which makes a delightful low-fi noise when you twiddle it.
17:56:09 <alise> They just rebrand other people's drives now. :(
17:56:22 <coppro> man, I look so epically bad
17:56:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: (It's that pentium-100-or-so I don't really use.)
17:56:41 <coppro> I look so epically bad
17:56:55 <coppro> oops, sorry for the double message
17:57:14 <alise> coppro: pics or it didn't happen
17:57:24 <alise> although i guess there is no "event" to "happen"
17:57:29 <alise> unless we're talking in the sense of "time still existing"
17:57:34 <coppro> suffice to say I'm dressed in a suit, which looks good
17:57:44 <coppro> and I have a pink tie that I can't get to look quite right
17:57:44 <fizzie> alise: This is a bit late, but yes, I do use cdparanoia, for some small values of "use". (We don't really have that many audio CDs.)
17:58:09 <alise> The only reason to buy audio CDs is to get a good rip.
17:58:16 <alise> coppro: It's pink. 'Nuff said.
17:58:35 <fizzie> Maybe you could dip it in ink?
17:58:49 <alise> What's that? Dip the pink
17:59:20 <coppro> it's supposed to be pink
17:59:20 <fizzie> alise: That's my particular kink.
17:59:29 <coppro> I have a perfectly serviceable blue tie here too
17:59:34 <coppro> but that just wouldn't be the same
17:59:57 <alise> Okay, how do I strip images from a FLAC file?
18:00:00 <AnMaster> alise, this bug however causes mayhem for me currently: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/524281
18:00:09 <alise> fizzie: That's your kink? Well I do fink
18:00:16 <alise> That's more than a little rinky-dink-dink.
18:01:35 <alise> Maybe I'll just compile Amarok 1.
18:01:42 <alise> It has the feature of not sucking.
18:02:32 <alise> Hmm, wait. There is also DeaDBeeF and Aqualung to consider...
18:02:55 <alise> Or I could run Foobar in wine. :)
18:03:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: Incidentally, the micro-HDMI connector is about the same size as micro-USB (2.8 x 6.4 mm, actually even a bit smaller), but it still has the full 19 pins of a regular HDMI connector. That's some seriously tiny pins.
18:03:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is wrong with the normal size?
18:04:00 <alise> Actually, Foobar in Wine isn't such a bad idea.
18:04:16 <AnMaster> I mean, putting a db on a phone seems about useless
18:04:23 <AnMaster> and on laptop standard size fits neatly
18:04:54 <alise> ... But if I'm using Foobar in Wine, why not just use DeaDBeeF?
18:05:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's very much not useless: you can watch your favourite movies on-the-go on the hotel TV. (Okay, so you'd probably also have that laptop, but still. And I've been traveling around with just the N900 lately.)
18:05:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah I'm not the target audience I see
18:05:59 <alise> Yeah, AnMaster doesn't watch entertainment.
18:06:30 <alise> Q: How many Prolog programmers does it take to change light bulb?
18:06:31 <alise> Q: How many Mercury programmers does it take to change light bulb?
18:06:31 <alise> A: Four. One to change the light bulb and three to distract the nurses.
18:06:38 <AnMaster> I watch on youtube sometimes. I find the stuff on TV pretty much shit
18:06:54 <fizzie> I hate how they have a nice TV (with reasonable speakers) I could hook up the phone into in a hotel room, and then they completely screw any possibility of that by (a) not having any control buttons on the TV set, and (b) by providing only a "for dummies" variant of the TV remote, which doesn't make it possible to select any of the (four or so) external inputs of the TV.
18:07:52 <fizzie> No, but there's a (blurry) composite-video/RCA-audio thing.
18:08:00 <alise> fizzie: Carry around a universal remote. :P
18:09:16 <fizzie> alise: The phone is a universal remote (it has a IR diode), but those TV models are always some sort of weird "business purposes only" models, and I can never find any lirc remote-protocol-files for them. (Of course a real universal remote would probably have some working codes; I don't usually have enough patience to start downloading files for non-matching models.)
18:10:06 <fizzie> Also I hear real universal remotes have nifty "point it at the TV, then press a button when something happens" auto-detection thingies.
18:10:32 <alise> I bought one that required you to hold down a button for like a minute then press something.
18:10:36 <alise> It was a fucking bitch-ass shitter.
18:11:58 <fizzie> What the what? I wasn't looking, and someone has added to this N900 QtIrreco tool a "download a remote from DB" choice.
18:12:37 <fizzie> Okay, the "DB" it uses seems to be pretty tiny. Phew. I was afraid something was going to non-suck.
18:13:18 <fizzie> There's surprisingly many air-conditioning systems listed; I didn't even know those have remote control in general.
18:14:46 -!- zzo38 has joined.
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18:15:36 <zzo38> O! Now I have corrected all problems with Icoruma->TeX program, except for overfull hboxes in tables.
18:15:37 -!- nooga has joined.
18:18:37 <fizzie> alise: Here's one way you could try for 24-bit sound: (with the volume way down) "aplay -L", then "aplay -D xxx -f S24_LE any.random.file", where xxx is a name from -L's list -- it'll try to play the file as raw audio data, and (at least here) say "Sample format non available; Available formats: [list]". (I'm just not completely sure I trust it, since it says that my hardware will play S16_LE and S32_LE, which sounds suspicious.)
18:19:36 <zzo38> My idea might be to make it calculate the minimum width of a paragraph box for only one word in a line, and the minimum width of all the words are on one line, and then insert a glue that stretches between those two widths?
18:20:45 <zzo38> Perhaps I will have to make it calculate the entire table before placing it on the page, similar to how I have it calculate the entire document before it ships it out
18:23:53 <alise> zzo38: You know, none of us have any idea what you're trying to do unless you tell us ...
18:24:20 <zzo38> alise: I thought I did tell you ...
18:24:31 <zzo38> What part of this do you not understand?
18:24:34 <alise> It got lost in fizzie's messages. Sorry.
18:25:01 <zzo38> fizzie only sent one message in between!
18:25:30 <oklopol> i already know my idea is awesome and works so i don't really care about you ppl's opinion
18:26:19 <alise> Ladies and Gentlemen,
18:26:25 <alise> The world Linux UI design
18:26:27 <alise> http://imgur.com/Ru2kI.png
18:26:35 <alise> Well, the UI is okay, with a different theme.
18:26:53 <oklopol> anyone here an expert in 2-structures
18:27:11 <zzo38> What does "world Linux UI design" mean?
18:28:45 <zzo38> Whether it is the worst or not I don't know, but what I do know is I would make the UI entirely differently than that
18:28:48 <oklopol> i guess you don't have those anyway being a supertyper
18:29:03 <zzo38> As well as the feature set
18:31:53 <alise> oklopol: I do make tons of typos.
18:31:59 <alise> I just correct them in less than a second.
18:32:14 <alise> I do have lots of thinkos, however, as I type thoughts as they are formed. I imagine most people type /after/ thinking ...
18:32:44 <oklopol> i usually think while typing too, but i both type and think rather slow so
18:33:45 <Flonk> alise: most people think after typing :D
18:34:44 <zzo38> I type fast, and often I do correct them in less than a second
18:35:11 <zzo38> But I type much faster when copying from something I have previously written on paper than when I am writing something new
18:35:47 <zzo38> Because when I write something new, I have to think of how I should write it down to make it meaningful and stuff like that
18:40:00 <alise> I write new thoughts quicker than copying.
18:41:15 <alise> fizzie: I'm playing the file; what command should I do, did you say?
18:43:16 <zzo38> But I am different because when I have new thoughts I have to think of how to write it. Writing new thoughts is not that much slower for me, though, than copying from a paper
18:43:22 <zzo38> But it is slightly slower
18:52:12 <alise> These speakers could do with more volume.
18:52:16 <alise> Maybe I'll just compress everything :P
18:53:29 <alise> Here's something that's Very Hard To Rip: Hidden tracks in the pregap of track 1 -- can be listened to by rewinding to "track 0" on most CD players.
18:53:35 <alise> But many, many CD-ROM drives simply cannot do it.
18:54:25 <fizzie> alise: Come to think of it, you could just use "mplayer -v" and check the messages. On my system, "mplayer -ao alsa -format s24le -v blah" says "[AO_ALSA] Format s24le is not supported by hardware, trying default" and builds a filter chain; s16le and s32le come out of the hardware. (I guess it's possible it fakes the 32-bit at some layer, but I don't think it should if you use a directly-hardwarey ALSA device.)
18:54:57 <alise> Ah well, it sounds alright; I wouldn't be able to tell on these speakers, anyway.
18:55:15 <alise> If I had a proper chair and some good speakers plugged in, I would be content. Yes, with the 13" screen; I've no problems with it.
18:55:31 <alise> In fact with excessive screen space I always get a little scared, what can I do with all this space that will do it justice and such. :P
18:55:31 <fizzie> Oh, right, the earlier command: pactl list | grep 'Sample Specification'
18:55:49 <alise> Just a bunch of lines with "16" in them.
18:55:49 <fizzie> If there's something more-than-16-bits going on there, it's probably playing with many bits.
18:56:06 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_albums_with_tracks_hidden_in_the_pregap
18:56:15 <alise> List of albums that are almost impossible to rip properly
18:56:53 <Sgeo> Someone hilighted me
19:03:30 <alise> Pet peeve: The spectrum analyser bars you see in music players.
19:03:35 <alise> They're useless and distracting.
19:05:09 <Gregor> Pet peeve: Music players with GUIs.
19:05:13 <Gregor> They're useless and distracting.
19:05:28 <Sgeo> Surely those bars are there for fun? So surely they're disableable?
19:05:47 <Sgeo> Yeah, one does not imply the other :/
19:06:12 <alise> Stick to super cow powers.
19:06:23 <alise> Gregor: They're not useless if you're trying to navigate a ton of music...
19:06:27 <alise> ...so I suppose you use mpdc?
19:06:41 <alise> You manually play the audio files
19:06:55 <Gregor> mplayer + bash = my music player
19:07:15 <Gregor> I navigate my music library with cd.
19:07:15 <alise> Thought so. I'd elaborate why th-- but that would be elaborating, finishing that sentence; so I won't.
19:07:16 <fizzie> alise: Apparently (source: interwebs) even if your hardware supports 24-bit audio, if you're playing through pulse, the PulseAudio daemon needs to be configured (via /etc/pulse/daemon.conf) to have a default sample format of something higher than s16le, otherwise everything will be clipped to that. (And after that everything you play will be internally converted to that many bits, adding to the resource drain. The same thing if you bump things up to 96 kHz or s
19:07:35 <alise> fizzie: Playing through ALSA (though Pulse is running.)
19:07:42 <alise> Or does Pulse override ALSA?
19:08:04 <fizzie> The default configuration makes the default alsa device direct things to PulseAudio, I think.
19:08:47 <fizzie> But yes, with laptop speakers you probably shouldn't care.
19:08:52 <alise> I can't even understand why people like PulseAudio.
19:08:55 <alise> It has absolutely no ... features.
19:09:17 <alise> "PulseAudio is an integral part of all relevant modern Linux distributions"
19:09:23 <alise> By defining "relevant" to mean "ones that use PulseAudio".
19:09:36 <fizzie> alise: So that you can get that "ding" sound when you do something wrong on top of the music you have playing on the background. (Discounting for a moment ALSA's own software mixer.)
19:09:53 <alise> Discounting the thing that already does a thing, it can do a thing!
19:09:53 <fizzie> Oh, and the "bep-drweeedle" sounds when someone sends you an IM message.
19:10:08 <alise> Another pet peeve: UI sounds.
19:10:16 <alise> Okay, the IM message notifications are quite useful, but.
19:10:24 <alise> It doesn't really sound like "bep-drweeedle". :P
19:10:34 <alise> More like "BAdum!".
19:10:56 <alise> When first adopted by the distributions PulseAudio developer Lennart Poettering described it as "the software that currently breaks your audio".[6] Poettering later claimed that "Ubuntu didn't exactly do a stellar job. They didn't do their homework" in adopting PulseAudio[7] for Ubuntu "Hardy Heron" (8.04), a problem which was then improved with subsequent Ubuntu releases.[8] However, Poettering is still not happy with Ubuntu's integration of PulseAudio.[9]
19:11:03 <alise> Wow, even the PulseAudio dev thinks Ubuntu's is especially crap.
19:11:46 <fizzie> Gregor: A friend of mine once did a Doom .wad file; for the door-opening and door-closing sounds, he substituted himself saying, in a laconic tone of voice, respectively, "clink-schloink" and "schlink-cloink". For some reason it was hilarious.
19:12:42 <Sgeo> Used to like an online station-like thingy called PulsRadio...
19:13:10 <AnMaster> <alise> But the VISUALS. <-- visuals?
19:13:11 <alise> Puls'Radio - Non-Stop Dance And Trance Music - Web Radio Trance ...
19:13:11 <alise> - [ Translate this page ]
19:13:11 <alise> Webradio orientée musique électronique dancefloor.
19:13:11 <alise> www.pulsradio.com/ - Cached - Similar
19:13:17 <alise> AnMaster: see my link
19:13:20 <alise> AnMaster: the visual appearance of it
19:13:27 <alise> rather than the other, important part of the UI (functionality, which is fine)
19:13:32 <alise> but that default theme!
19:13:43 <AnMaster> alise, rewrite it in motif. Then there will be one worse
19:14:01 <alise> AnMaster: Did you CLICK the link?
19:14:11 <AnMaster> http://i.imgur.com/Ru2kI.png ? yes
19:14:22 <alise> Motif looks way better than that.
19:14:39 <fizzie> Oh, and for music player comparisons; my current one is xmms2 and the "nyxmms2" CLI. The project is sadly a bit dead.
19:14:50 <alise> AnMaster: Bad, but... not /that/ bad.
19:15:02 <alise> xmms2 isn't really that dead afaik.
19:15:13 <alise> Anyway, mpd and xmms2 have the flaws that I didn't write them.
19:15:17 <fizzie> Well, not *dead*, just sort of.. slowey.
19:15:21 <AnMaster> alise, what is so bad about this one? The bg pattern is quite awful yes
19:15:33 <AnMaster> and colour choices could be better
19:15:35 <alise> AnMaster: The colours, and the background.
19:15:54 <alise> Well, no, but it did make me puke when I clicked on "default" theme after it started in "plain" theme (which is very very reasonable, GTK style).
19:15:56 <AnMaster> alise, what are the three sliders
19:16:08 <alise> Volume, balance (I think), position.
19:16:11 <alise> Balance because it's short and in the middle.
19:16:14 <alise> And next to volume.
19:16:24 <AnMaster> I dislike UIs where you have to hover the mouse to figure out what stuff is
19:16:24 <alise> As in L/R channel balance.
19:16:33 <fizzie> XMMS2's "AAC/MP4 (via faad2) and ASF/WMA (via ffmpeg) and libao output and whatnot" plugin developer's a friend, so I felt sort of obligated to try it out; it's passable.
19:16:36 <AnMaster> at least when there is no reason for it
19:17:00 <alise> Can ffmpeg actually poop crap out to an audio device? To use the correct terminology.
19:17:11 <alise> Hmm, why didn't I know of libao before?
19:17:44 <AnMaster> libao? some audio library, iirc... But then there are more audio libraries than there are GUI toolkits these days
19:17:59 <alise> So you Know It's Good.
19:18:02 <alise> It's what mplayer uses by default too.
19:18:13 <AnMaster> theora sucks, and aren't they behind it?
19:18:21 <alise> Theora sucks, /but/ it was a Good Try.
19:18:32 <alise> When it was released it was /unbearable/.
19:18:36 <alise> Then they made it acceptable.
19:18:39 <alise> AnMaster: No. But old.
19:18:44 <alise> And it was dormant when they got ahold of it.
19:18:53 <alise> Then they made it... you know, bad, but not terrible.
19:18:54 * Sgeo wonders what alise thinks of VP8
19:18:57 <alise> AnMaster: I don't know. 2003 or something.
19:19:04 <fizzie> "libao" as in "audio output"; it's meant for cross-platform audio output; writes to files (in various formats) as well as platform-dependant audio-hardware things.
19:19:14 <alise> Sgeo: It's still not as good as H.264, and never will be.
19:19:29 <alise> AnMaster: It is when the codec it's based on
19:19:42 <alise> hmm how old is VP3
19:19:47 <AnMaster> sigh, why do I feel so old suddenly -_-
19:19:47 <alise> VP3.1 was introduced in May 2000 followed three months later by the VP3.2 release,[11][12] which is the basis for Theora.
19:19:54 <alise> It's old for /this stuff/.
19:20:04 <alise> Dammit, I don't have a warped perception of time, I just have a context-dependent one.
19:20:07 <alise> In 2000, video encoding SUCKED.
19:20:27 <alise> And it's hard to make a format from then not suck.
19:20:34 <alise> AnMaster: Don't remember, but have seen since many times.
19:20:37 <alise> (Since it's been obsolete.)
19:21:11 <AnMaster> alise, wait, what about qt in around 2001 or so?
19:21:15 <fizzie> alise: Hey, now... already in 1998 we had "DivX ;-) 3.11 Alpha".
19:21:21 <alise> QuickTime I dealt with when it was horrible, horrible on Windows.
19:21:23 <alise> (Still is, but, you know.)
19:21:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: The smilie is part of the name, yes.
19:21:51 <alise> DivX ;-) (not DivX) 3.11 Alpha and later 3.xx versions refers to a hacked version of the Microsoft MPEG-4 Version 3 video codec (not to be mistaken with MPEG-4 Part 3) from Windows Media Tools 4 codecs.[4][5] The video codec, which was actually not MPEG-4 compliant, was extracted around 1998 by French hacker Jerome Rota (also known as Gej) at Montpellier. The Microsoft codec originally required that the compressed output be put in an ASF file. It was alter
19:21:51 <alise> ed to allow other containers such as Audio Video Interleave (AVI).[6] Rota hacked the Microsoft codec because newer versions of the Windows Media Player wouldn't play his video portfolio and résumé that were encoded with it. Instead of re-encoding his portfolio, Rota and German hacker Max Morice decided to reverse engineer the codec, which "took about a week".[7]
19:22:02 <AnMaster> alise, I never dealt with qt on windows back then
19:22:08 <AnMaster> alise, did deal with it on mac
19:22:16 <alise> The "DivX" brand is distinct from "DIVX" (Digital Video Express), an unrelated attempt by the now defunct U.S. retailer Circuit City to develop a video rental system requiring special discs and players.[1] The winking emoticon in the early "DivX ;-)" codec name was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the failed DIVX system. The DivX company then adopted the name of the popular DivX ;-) codec (which was not created by them), dropped the smiley and released DivX
19:22:16 <alise> 4.0, which was actually the first DivX version. (Note that DivX ;-) and DivX are separate products and are created by different people; the former is not an older version of the latter). The DivX name is its trademark.[2][3] It is pronounced DIV-ex.
19:22:22 <AnMaster> alise, I mean, myst for mac uses qt for the embedded animations and such
19:22:27 <alise> fizzie: So note that DivX as you know it is NOT affiliated with, or based on, the old DivX ;-).
19:22:30 <alise> They just stole the name.
19:22:56 <alise> I never had the attention span for Myst. Gimme Monkey Island.
19:23:06 <alise> So, ffmpeg + libao seems to be a way better solution than Xine and GStreamer.
19:23:09 <alise> Why doesn't everything use it?
19:23:37 <AnMaster> alise, I never played monkey island
19:23:42 <alise> I wonder if I am not getting old myself; my Emacs font is really big.
19:23:44 <fizzie> alise: Not based on, but I remember videos from the time of the smiley. They're all "sort-of MPEG-4 except not" anyway.
19:23:49 <AnMaster> oh and does it surprise you that I had the required attention span?
19:23:58 <AnMaster> alise, to solve it without walkthroughs
19:24:00 <alise> Since you've said you have severe ADHD.
19:24:11 <alise> I thought you did.
19:24:28 <alise> Oh. I thought you said bad ADHD becoming light ADHD w/ Ritalin.
19:24:50 <AnMaster> no, also I said it in /msg under condition of keeping it there iirc.
19:25:05 <alise> Sorry; I didn't remember.
19:25:13 <alise> Telling me things is usually a bad idea. :P
19:25:39 <fizzie> Myst was nice; I got it as a birthday present when the Windows port was new, or at least new-ish.
19:25:49 <AnMaster> looked a lot better back then than it does when replayed today
19:26:10 <AnMaster> I mean, you didn't noticed the dithering very much on an old performa (built in) CRT
19:26:22 <AnMaster> it was how everything looked on displays after all
19:26:36 <AnMaster> and CRT doesn't give a crystal clear picture like TFTs do
19:27:46 <fizzie> I think I saw "Myst: Masterpiece Edition" somewhere in a bin; I'm a bit sorry that I didn't get it, but since I already had the original... (it has the graphics re-rendered as 24-bit bitmaps, as opposed to the 256-color palette+dithering ones; and also some works-better-in-newer-Windowses stuff).
19:28:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, I run it in sheepshaver nowdays
19:28:28 <fizzie> Wait, what? I actually *did* buy it? At least there's one of those tall-DVD-case-thingies in the shelf with "MYST: masterpiece edition" printed on it.
19:28:50 <alise> Still needs a better name.
19:28:56 <fizzie> "Every graphic element has been upgraded to brilliant 24-bit color".
19:29:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: I... don't remember. I remember re-playing Myst not long ago, but I thought it was the old one, not this new one.
19:29:19 <AnMaster> alise, um. this sounds familiar. but no I can't locate wtf belial is
19:29:38 <alise> AnMaster: my vapourware music daemon
19:29:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, time to replay yet again?
19:29:47 <alise> Vapourware no more! Not another day I have to sleep at the unit: so I have time!
19:29:50 <zzo38> What I should do is combine features of ImageMagick and SoX in one program called "Image Exchange" and -density sets the sample rate. And to play a audio file backwards and with echo you can type in: imx file1.wav -flop +echo play:
19:29:52 <fizzie> Also: "Larger and higher quality movies and animations"; after all, the book-entering animation clips in original Myst were something like 160x120 pixels.
19:30:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh btw for that image, if you can't correct white balance, it might be worth a try to just do vignetting
19:30:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, and perhaps try without exposure correction. It could be what is messing up the sky. Well I don't know how it is messed up so hard to tell..
19:30:54 <fizzie> And: "Proprietary DigitalGuide™ help system assists players of every skill level"
19:31:33 <fizzie> There's some sort of built-in walkthrough, I guess.
19:31:34 <AnMaster> if you need a walkthrough... use google to find something at ign or whatever
19:31:45 <AnMaster> built in ones is just... cheating
19:32:06 <alise> I remember UHS. Anyone remember UHS?
19:32:13 <alise> Universal Hint System.
19:32:18 <fizzie> alise: I wrote a perl script to convert UHS files to a XML format.
19:32:21 <alise> You'd ask it a question about a game by clicking on it, and it'd give you a vague hint.
19:32:24 <alise> Click again, more specific.
19:32:30 <alise> After -- I think on the fifth hint -- it told you outright.
19:32:42 <alise> The program plus a few hint files for games could fit on one floppy.
19:32:43 <AnMaster> alise, was this in the game or a separate product?
19:32:58 <alise> Seems it still exists.
19:33:00 <alise> http://www.uhs-hints.com/
19:33:14 <AnMaster> but vague hint for an entire game... that doesn't work for most games
19:33:21 <alise> For one specific puzzle.
19:33:36 <alise> Inside the game it would have a bunch of little problems you might encounter, then you could just click to get more and more specific hints.
19:33:45 <alise> Probably the most... tasteful hint system existing, with the discretion and all.
19:34:08 <fizzie> Hm, there's uhs2xml.pl, xml2html.pl and showxml.pl here.
19:34:08 <AnMaster> I can think of lots of games where this fails. works mostly for RPGs, adventure and similar.
19:34:19 <AnMaster> I guess that is where it is most needed
19:34:50 <zzo38> In addition to audio, imx also needs a block-JPEG to perform lossless transformations on JPEG file by keeping the blocks compressed
19:35:10 <zzo38> alise: I have also written a hint system called IFHINT
19:35:30 <alise> AnMaster: Where would it fail?
19:35:31 <zzo38> (I do not know how it compares with UHS)
19:35:38 <AnMaster> alise, it doesn't work well for very open ended adventure or rpg games where you have absolutely no clue what to do next. Granted, they are much more rare than mostly railroaded games, but still. they exist.
19:35:55 <AnMaster> alise, well open ended strategy games
19:36:00 <AnMaster> pretty useless for that I guess
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19:36:17 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, it doesn't work well for very open ended adventure or rpg games where you have absolutely no clue what to do next. Granted, they are much more rare than mostly railroaded games, but still. they exist.
19:36:32 <alise> "I have completed the Seven Trials, killed Morgggot, and retrieved the chicken. What do I do now?"
19:36:33 <fizzie> Writing UHS files needs some care in the question-titling business; if they're too explicit, you can deduce too much; if too vague, they'll be difficult to find.
19:36:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yay!
19:37:18 <AnMaster> alise, I was thinking about the kind of game where you could side with either side of a conflict for completely different gameplay, and possibly change in the middle
19:37:42 <AnMaster> or even do the "your own side, fight both" style.
19:37:53 <alise> AnMaster: There'd be a (One Side) and (Other Side) superheading, then.
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19:38:38 <fizzie> Right; there's an arbitrary tree of questions/subquestions, and then each hint has an arbitrary list of answers, revealed one by one.
19:39:09 <AnMaster> tree? needs to be arbitrary graph for the kind of game I'm thinking about
19:39:34 <fizzie> No, it doesn't: you don't have to traverse the tree in order.
19:39:44 <fizzie> It just needs to be browseable so that you find what you're looking for.
19:40:03 <fizzie> There's a human reading it, after all.
19:40:19 <Gregor> Conifer? I 'ardly knew 'er!
19:40:58 <AnMaster> the kind of game I'm thinking about is _exceedingly_ rare, but exists. Most examples that come to mind are user created modules or such to open ended RPG game engines. Major companies seems to hate truly open ended RPGs. Probably because it is a lot more work.
19:41:43 <fizzie> That being said, the format probably does work best for regular linear-ish (or at least fixed-content do-it-in-the-order-you-like) adventure games.
19:41:44 <alise> And because players end up feeling lost.
19:42:37 <Gregor> Arguably, almost all MMORPGs fit that, they're just also "MMO"
19:43:04 <AnMaster> alise, I actually love the freedom of this kind of open ended gameplay. Especially if the game has D&D style alignment. If you play chaotic neutral in a rail roaded RPG you never really get the chance for being truly CN.
19:43:29 <AnMaster> less of a problem for lawful of course.
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19:43:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: Incidentally, Myst's DS port added a whole new age (Rime) to the plot. (I don't remember how it tied in to the Myst plot; ISTR it wasn't just "one more red/blue page to find" thing.)
19:44:39 <fizzie> In other ways it was a pretty sucky port; bugs and such.
19:44:52 <fizzie> But you could write (with the stylus) in a notebook, that was a nice touch.
19:44:59 <fizzie> (Unfortunately the notebook only had one page.)
19:45:20 <fizzie> It's a pretty resource-limited system, and bitmaps take a lot of space.
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19:45:55 <fizzie> From a review: "The Nintendo DS has the game at its worst: a poorly compressed, sometimes glitchy, game that relies entirely on visuals that are too hard to see for progression."
19:46:03 <fizzie> (The reviewer is a Myst-hater, though.)
19:46:41 <fizzie> Oh, lots of people hate it.
19:47:05 <alise> It's very, very dull.
19:47:10 <alise> And the puzzles are on the ... inexplicable side.
19:47:13 <alise> When there /are/ any puzzles.
19:47:24 <AnMaster> there are puzzles everywhere in myst!
19:47:30 <alise> When you're not walking.
19:47:47 <fizzie> People do find it boring, yes.
19:48:33 <AnMaster> well, I hate the FPS genre due to being too fast... so I guess there is a pattern here...
19:48:56 <fizzie> And there's the "zip mode" (at least in the Windows port) to ease a bit on the clickery needed in walking, if you're already been somewhere and want to revisit it.
19:49:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's in the mac one too
19:50:22 <AnMaster> myst on mac at least was developed in hypercard I think...
19:50:39 <AnMaster> not sure if that applies to the windows port
19:52:29 <fizzie> One problem in the DS port is that since there's no cursor, poking at random points might activate interactive things, but they might as well cause you to move somewhere; you'd know from the cursor shape.
19:53:04 <fizzie> And since they shrunk everything to the DS's 256x192 pixel resolution, some of the things you need to poke with a stick are pretty tiny.
19:53:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't it have two screens?
19:53:38 <fizzie> Only one of them is a touchscreen.
19:54:03 <alise> It's not a touchscreen, really.
19:54:06 <alise> More a stylusscreen.
19:54:13 <fizzie> Okay, but pokeable anyway.
19:54:15 <fizzie> Often there's main graphics in the upper screen, and then some sort of UI in the bottom.
19:54:42 <fizzie> "Pokescreen." Or is that too pokemon? (Or too porn?)
19:54:54 <AnMaster> I don't get how it could be porn...
19:55:06 <AnMaster> but yeah too pokemon definitely
19:55:12 <fizzie> It's a Finnish colloquialism for porn; it probably doesn't translate.
19:55:26 <alise> What, pokes? Or pokescreen?
19:55:43 <fizzie> Just "poke". Not too common, but recognizable anyway.
19:57:04 <fizzie> The FF3 port, IIRC, puts the 3D view on top, and a map on the styluscreen; you can poke at the corners of the screen to move in that direction. The equip/item/etc. menu opens over the map, as do the battle menus (and other battle stats).
19:58:22 <fizzie> Of Myst DS: "Even if you wanted to simply enjoy Myst's scenery, the grainy compression has shattered the beauty of the artistic design. What you see is a sad, freckled shell of the original game. The audio from the original game fares only slightly better: Hissing, scratching, and popping have turned CD-quality sound effects, dialogue, and gorgeous, ethereal music into a ham-radio affair."
19:59:04 <alise> The DS' audio is awful.
19:59:32 <AnMaster> myst is best enjoyed with a peforma cd drive for the seeking noise. It had a very peculiar seeking noise. Not heard on modern computers
19:59:44 <AnMaster> but I very strongly associates myst with that sound
19:59:45 <fizzie> Here's a screenshot: http://image.gamespotcdn.net/gamespot/images/2008/133/939943_20080513_screen003.jpg -- that's the full-size image, 256 pixels wide; just zoom it in the browser to approximate how you'd probably hold the DS closer than the monitor.
20:00:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, a map? that's ruining point of the whole thing
20:00:22 <fizzie> It's a static map, though; it doesn't tell you where you are.
20:00:33 <alise> AnMaster: Inventory, presumably. Maybe?
20:00:44 <fizzie> You can only carry one thing in Myst. :p
20:00:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, on that specific world part of the challenge was figuring out the other islands played any sort of part in the story
20:00:54 <fizzie> The third one is the scribble-notepad.
20:01:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: Nhm, well, I guess. They were pretty visible from the screens, though.
20:01:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: And the map doesn't show how you've rotated the bridge, so it doesn't help in that.
20:01:36 <AnMaster> yes, but there is scenery which is just scenery in many places
20:02:32 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Myst_opening.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Realmyst_screen.png
20:02:39 <AnMaster> ugh at the latter. Sure some stuff is better
20:02:54 <AnMaster> but why couldn't they keep the parts of better detail in the original
20:02:56 <fizzie> The first one is a zoom thing, with which you can zoom what's shown in the bottom screen for easier viewing, but it just stretches the bitmap, there's no higher-resolution version stored anywhere.
20:02:59 <alise> So does Myst run in ScummVM or anything?
20:03:15 <AnMaster> look at the part of the boat, some rigging or something sticking out
20:03:24 <AnMaster> where the bumps are real bumps in the original
20:03:25 <alise> Julian Assange should get out of the country, quickly.
20:03:29 <AnMaster> and in the new one... just texture
20:03:41 <olsner> myst was probably made in shockwave or something like that
20:04:30 <alise> AnMaster: The Pentagon are out to get him.
20:04:46 <AnMaster> but yeah, should go to iceland
20:05:16 <alise> http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leakhttp://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leak -- ok, ok, don't trust everything you read online, but i don't think The Daily Beast is known to be terribly inaccurate
20:05:39 <alise> Uh, repeated link.
20:05:39 <alise> http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leak
20:05:48 <AnMaster> alise, ah, I thought it was a bit on the long side
20:05:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: RealMyst had to run in real-time on whatever hardware there was in 2000, so they probably didn't have the polygons to spare to get all the details from the originals -- which were offline-rendered -- in.
20:05:49 <alise> [[“We’d like to know where he is; we’d like his cooperation in this,” one U.S. official said of Assange.]]
20:05:58 <alise> Of course when he gets to court he's fucked. No chance of a nice ruling there.
20:06:53 <AnMaster> I don't think killing off Assange would stop any such leak. They most likely have the files spread and back up people to publish it
20:07:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: "While the new interactivity of the game was praised, realMyst ran extremely slowly on most computers of the time." Heh, maybe they also didn't try very hard.
20:07:28 <alise> realMyst: Interactive 3D Edition was a remake of Myst released in November 2000 for Windows PCs, and in January 2002 for Mac. Unlike Myst and the Masterpiece Edition, realMyst featured free-roaming, real-time 3D graphics instead of pre-rendered stills.[50] Weather effects like thunderstorms, sunsets, and sunrises were added to the Ages, and minor additions were made to keep the game in sync with the story of the Myst novels and sequels. The game also adde
20:07:28 <alise> d a new Age called Rime, which is featured in an extended ending.
20:07:33 <alise> So realMyst added Rime, not the DS version.
20:07:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm. That grassy area on the side is nicer in realmyst IMO
20:07:46 <fizzie> Yes, it's the same Rime.
20:08:14 <fizzie> I'd like to know how the iPhone version is.
20:08:32 * alise downloads insurance.aes256, 1.4 GB.
20:08:35 <fizzie> "Williams, Bryn (2009-05-04). "Massive Myst Clogs Up iPhone". GameSpy. http://www.gamespy.com/articles/979/979141p1.html. Retrieved 2009-05-04." Sounds good.
20:09:05 <fizzie> A 700+-megabyte download is apparently considered "big" for an iPhone app.
20:09:12 <alise> fizzie: Of course it is XD
20:09:17 <alise> You download that over WiFi.
20:09:33 <fizzie> You also need 1.5 gigs free during the installation; a copy is involved. Heh-eh.
20:09:53 <AnMaster> alise, "Assange appeared via Skype from Australia instead, saying lawyers recommended he not return to the United States.", if that is true I doubt he is in US
20:10:21 <fizzie> There's "quick access to hint guide" in the iMyst (no, they're not calling it that) too.
20:11:25 <fizzie> (And it seems they've shrunk it down, the current iOS 4 compatible version is only 533 MB. I might even invest the $5 if I had an iDevice.)
20:11:27 <AnMaster> from what I can tell it is before the afghan war diary stuff
20:12:20 <alise> AnMaster: Well, it can only inflame.
20:12:39 <alise> Anyway, I presume this insurance file is all the /rest/ of the documents the White House have begged him not to release about this stuff, encrypted with AES-256.
20:12:53 <alise> Presumably, he will post the key if he feels threatened by the govt.
20:13:01 <alise> Length: 309809152 (295M) [application/octet-stream]
20:13:05 <alise> You said >1GB, Wikileaks.
20:14:10 <alise> http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Afghan_War_Diary,_2004-2010
20:14:15 <alise> The silently added insurance.aes256.
20:15:14 <alise> The SHA-1 is wrong.
20:15:16 <alise> Why is it truncated.
20:15:43 <alise> Firefox is doing it alright.
20:16:27 <AnMaster> alise, considering how slow the download page was to load, I very much suspect that overloaded server might be the cause.
20:17:45 <Sgeo> WHY DID I HAVE TO MAKE THIS SO CRASHPROOF
20:18:10 <AnMaster> that deserves some explanation
20:18:13 <Sgeo> I have the code that starts the thing in a try, some stuff in a catch, and the whole thing in a while(true)
20:18:18 <Sgeo> I now want to kill it
20:18:25 <Sgeo> So I could run it on a different host
20:18:43 <Sgeo> AnMaster, it's not running on a computer I have access to
20:18:50 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Memling_Vanity_and_Salvation.jpg (NSFW, WTF)
20:19:15 <Sgeo> The self-restarts in a sense on exceptions aren't perfect, due to poor code design
20:19:16 <AnMaster> alise, seen that before. Hisotorical context.
20:19:24 <AnMaster> check image page for "used in"
20:19:27 <alise> "This triptych contrasts earthly beauty and luxury with the prospect of death and hell."
20:19:30 <alise> It's still pretty WTF.
20:19:57 <alise> Meanwhile, someone has snipped out just the bit with nakedness: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Hans_Memling_Vanit%C3%A9_ca_1490.jpg XD
20:22:22 <AnMaster> alise, google news search on wikileaks insurance aes256: "all 477 news articles »"
20:22:28 <AnMaster> that's quite a bit of coverage
20:22:40 <alise> mostly just wikileaks, I bet
20:24:31 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why Wikileaks didn't manually look for informant's names and only release documents known for certain not to contain them?
20:25:47 <alise> Did they release any with informant's names?
20:26:06 <AnMaster> alise, you know, no one could tell if it was just random data to scare with
20:26:36 <AnMaster> alise, yes iirc it turned out they did so
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20:58:22 <alise> AnMaster: what kernel do i select in ubuntu 7.04 install?
20:58:28 <alise> linux-generic froze the install last time i tried
20:58:32 <alise> do I choose the specific name?
20:58:37 <alise> sorry, *linux-kernel I think. maybe not
21:01:01 <AnMaster> alise, it froze for me for about 20 minutes with jfs and about 10 with ext3
21:01:04 <zzo38> What are commands in TeX to calculate the minimum width of a paragraph (with no hyphenation)?
21:01:10 <alise> AnMaster: O_O what?!
21:01:12 <alise> why would it freeze that much
21:01:24 <alise> Any way to rectify it?
21:01:29 <AnMaster> alise, logs showed the vm was trying to catch up time drift
21:01:41 <alise> Also, ext3 is what it does when you just let it go with the whole disk, right?
21:01:46 <alise> AnMaster: Huh. So it eventually resolved?
21:01:59 <AnMaster> alise, well with ext3 it did. It did take an awful lot of time though
21:02:04 <AnMaster> with jfs I gave up after 20 minutes
21:02:27 <AnMaster> alise, I used noatime mount option on ext3, no idea if that was signficiant or not
21:02:35 <AnMaster> anyway linux-generic just maps to one of the other ones
21:02:50 <zzo38> Do you know about commands in TeX?
21:03:30 <AnMaster> zzo38, clarify that question please What exactly do you mean
21:03:52 <AnMaster> or is "commands" some package?
21:04:00 <alise> AnMaster: pure TeX.
21:04:18 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, I used noatime mount option on ext3, no idea if that was signficiant or not <-- is this likely to speed it up?
21:04:59 <AnMaster> alise, I mean, theoretically it should perhaps, no need to update atime field
21:05:12 <alise> Yeah, but I mean, the huge lag.
21:05:15 <alise> Could that be related?
21:05:26 <zzo38> AnMaster: I mean Plain TeX. I want to calculate the minimum possible width of a box that a paragraph will fit into with no hyphenation or overfull boxes.
21:05:29 <alise> Because it's time drift instead.
21:05:29 <AnMaster> alise, and since iirc noatime is not default and you hit that lag too. That is assuming you did defaults
21:05:47 <zzo38> And no overlapping text.
21:05:47 <AnMaster> alise, I'm not sure if the time drift is actually causing the slow down or just side effect
21:06:15 <AnMaster> alise, it might very well be caused by the VM hogging it's CPU to 100% in debconf during that time
21:06:21 <AnMaster> alise, it turns out top installed before kernel
21:06:29 <AnMaster> so I could chroot into the install and run top
21:06:57 <AnMaster> alise, just go to alt-f2, oh and it reports current status on alt-f4 or such
21:07:00 <alise> Oh, so it's responsive?
21:07:05 <alise> Which kernel did you pick?
21:07:26 <AnMaster> alise, but it doesn't matter really since they are just generic aliases of each other
21:07:28 <zzo38> Here is the command to use if you want to test if a GNU/Linux system is running too slow: time seq 1 1000000
21:07:35 <AnMaster> alise, blame expert install for showing the option at all probably
21:08:01 <AnMaster> alise, need it for the shadow option however
21:08:01 <alise> zzo38: For one, that's IO-bound. Heavily. You want >/dev/null.
21:08:05 <alise> For two, there are many implementations of seq.
21:08:12 <AnMaster> alise, modifying that after the fact turned out to be quite a mess.
21:08:37 <zzo38> alise: That is meaning in case you want to count multiple things at once including I/O and things.
21:09:08 <alise> AnMaster: Incidentally, using QEMU to emulate an x86-64 machine is a bitch.
21:09:24 <alise> AnMaster: This is because although I have a 64-bit processor, it does not support virtualisation, so VirtualBox can't do 64-bit on it.
21:09:30 <alise> Well, it isn't /that/ slow
21:09:35 <alise> But still, you know, could be a bit faster.
21:09:57 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, as far as I can tell it stalls (or seems to?) in generating the initrd or possibly depmod. This is based on output on alt-f4
21:10:30 <AnMaster> alise, I don't know if you drink coffee, but this is the kind of place where guides would suggest you go make a cup of it to pass the time :P
21:10:40 <alise> Usually it suggests tea.
21:10:43 <alise> Well, in the good manuals.
21:10:52 <zzo38> The command "time seq 1 1000000" doesn't test everything and also won't do only one thing for testing, but it is good as a simple way to test multiple things at once
21:10:54 <AnMaster> hm that "trope" of manuals seems mostly gone nowdays
21:11:07 <AnMaster> alise, I can't remember it being tea in any case I read about
21:11:09 <alise> There doesn't seem to be a coffee machine in the kitchen and I'm not about to drink instant coffee, so I don't drink coffee much. That's probably a good thing.
21:11:20 <alise> AnMaster: I've never seen coffee. Maybe I read better manuals than you. :P
21:11:46 <AnMaster> alise, or British manuals rather than American ones. That could be a significant factor
21:11:57 <alise> I don't use much British software, as far as I know.
21:12:12 <AnMaster> Swedish ones would probably suggest coffee. It is by far more common than tea here
21:12:20 <alise> Or maybe localised manuals. Who knows. I don't think they'd localise that; only open-sourcey and other thrifty projects have it, and those don't tend to get localised across dialects of English.
21:12:25 <alise> Ah, well, yes, I'm talking English ere.
21:12:42 <AnMaster> alise, well I'm not sure which language I read it in
21:12:48 <AnMaster> probably both English and Swedish
21:14:45 <AnMaster> alise, wait, that 10 minutes was for virtualbox with hardware virt
21:14:56 <AnMaster> qemu is in my experience slower...
21:15:25 <AnMaster> without kvm... you might have to wait a bit more than 10 minutes
21:16:00 <alise> Does KVM work if your processor doesn't do that virtualisin' thang?
21:16:23 <AnMaster> alise, indeed. Also how fast cpu?
21:16:53 <alise> 1.33 GHz or something; ultra low voltage. But don't be fooled; it runs a ton of Firefox and other windows very snappily and quickly on bloated old Ubuntu.
21:16:56 <AnMaster> like... lots of small muffled explosions after each other
21:17:00 <alise> So it's no slowpoke. It /is/ Core 2 Duo, after all.
21:17:15 <AnMaster> like 5-10 / second, went on for maybe 4 or 5 seconds
21:17:34 <AnMaster> alise, my cpu is Core 2 Duo @ 2.26 GHz btw
21:18:09 <AnMaster> alise, looking at top and virtualbox's harddrive icon it seemed that whatever thing it stalled at was CPU bound, not IO bound
21:18:28 <alise> Oh well. I can wait for indefinite amounts of time as long as I know it's not frozen.
21:18:36 <alise> It froze at 8x% -- is this your experience too?
21:18:51 <AnMaster> it was when installing kernel I know
21:19:13 <AnMaster> but yes it froze a short while at 8x% I think, and then the 10 minute freeze at 92% or such
21:19:19 <AnMaster> the first one was like about a minute or so
21:19:22 <alise> Ah. It froze for a few minutes at 8x% for me.
21:19:37 <AnMaster> alise, slower cpu, no hw virt. What can you expect?
21:19:40 <zzo38> How can you calculate the shortest width of hbox that a paragraph will fit into with no overfills, hyphenation, or overlapped text?
21:19:46 <AnMaster> alise, don't you have one with hw virt?
21:20:33 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I'm really curious as to what debconf was doing, since it was it that was using 99% CPU during the second stall at least
21:20:33 <alise> Yes; an AMD box and an iMac.
21:20:38 <alise> But, you know, I like this little box. It's dinky!
21:20:43 <alise> That's the actual hostname.
21:20:50 <AnMaster> alise, what was the screen res?
21:21:02 <alise> 1366x768; which, on a 13" screen, gives it a lovely dpi.
21:21:08 <alise> Enough to have a few windows on the same screen.
21:21:42 <AnMaster> alise, opengenera uses a 800x600 window (do not resize, I haven't tried, but the snap4 README said that if you do that, BAD things will happen). And a bitmapped font that is kind of hard to read on my thinkpad at times.
21:22:00 <AnMaster> alise, you can save state in vmware, in case you need to continue next weekend I mean
21:22:14 <alise> AnMaster: Indeed, the screen is so high-quality and high-dpi that /slight-hinted RGB subpixel rendering by (patent-patched) freetype/ actually *has no noticeable subpixels*.
21:22:20 <alise> Literally. Even if you lean your head in and strain to see.
21:22:29 <alise> It looks even better than OS X's subpixel rendering.
21:22:32 <AnMaster> alise, yeah yeah, but opengenera can only use bitmapped fonts
21:22:38 <AnMaster> so those will do you no good here
21:22:38 <alise> The actual font rendering isn't up to snuff, of course, but the subpixel...
21:22:41 <alise> AnMaster: 800x600 is fine.
21:22:46 <alise> <AnMaster> alise, you can save state in vmware, in case you need to continue next weekend I mean
21:22:49 <alise> and why would I need to?
21:23:01 <alise> VirtualBox can save state too IIRC.
21:23:15 <alise> No, I meant VirtualBox.
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21:23:32 <AnMaster> I write vmware, and meant virtualbox
21:24:27 <AnMaster> alise, if you show up sleep deprived though... things might start looking bad for you again
21:24:42 <alise> I'm good at hiding it.
21:24:47 <alise> Besides, I look tired on Mondays anyway.
21:24:58 <alise> AnMaster: But no, I'm on the "fast track" to being discharged in September.
21:25:01 <alise> Not to peace of course ...
21:25:02 <AnMaster> okay. I know I personally fail at hiding lack of sleep
21:25:14 <AnMaster> sure I can stay awake, unless at home... but even so
21:25:51 <AnMaster> ais523, did you reach any clarity in that esr/ick/knuth issue?
21:25:54 <alise> Well, I can survive on five hours of sleep and after a bit of yawning I'm okay after noon.
21:25:59 <alise> Then by evening I crash.
21:26:00 <ais523> AnMaster: it's still happening
21:26:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I haven't heard anything except the initial statement
21:26:31 <ais523> just technical details
21:27:19 <ais523> this is INTERCAL, who needs reasons?
21:27:27 <ais523> but we're trying to compile a huge repo of all known C-INTERCAL history
21:27:46 <AnMaster> ais523, like every revision and version?
21:28:00 <ais523> well, it wasn't versioned particularly well in the past
21:28:03 <AnMaster> ais523, don't forget my port to MPW
21:28:05 <ais523> so the older history is a bit flaky
21:28:22 <AnMaster> ais523, probably only I have the foggiest idea how to compile that though
21:28:31 <ais523> if you have more history, like the MPW port, you could reply to the a.kl
21:28:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I only have read only access to a.l.i
21:28:56 <AnMaster> ais523, or usenet at all rather
21:29:01 <fizzie> alise: I'd like to revisit my statements re Myst "it works in Wine"; ScummVM does have a "WIP" version of the Mohawk engine used by Myst/windows (as well as Riven and the Masterpiece Edition redo), and it's even in the SVN repo and does something; presumably not very playable yet, but last commit three weeks ago so it's not quite dead either; http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/Myst
21:29:08 <fizzie> (This thing didn't exist, last I looked at it.)
21:29:10 <ais523> anyone can use Google Groups
21:29:13 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, you got the patch I think? I can link you to it otherwise
21:29:19 <ais523> I don't think I have it
21:29:24 <alise> ais523: AnMaster can't use Google Groups, they'll steal his inner goodness!
21:29:38 <ais523> well, even I'm a bit paranoid about it, to the extent of deleting cookies afterwards
21:29:39 <alise> fizzie: ScummVM is rapidly becoming AnyDamnThingVM!
21:29:51 <ais523> I have Google filtered more tightly than pretty much any other website
21:30:05 <alise> I was recently asked to
21:30:05 <alise> prepare a new INTERCAL release by no less a personage than Donald
21:30:05 <alise> Knuth, who wants to feature an INTERCAL program in his next book.
21:30:05 <AnMaster> ais523, see the files starting at ick on this url http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/
21:30:19 <alise> ais523: tell Knuth that he should clearly use /your/ C-INTERCAL >:D
21:30:27 <ais523> alise: hey, it's backwards-compatible
21:30:31 <alise> Knuth cannot stoop so low to use esr software!
21:30:47 <ais523> and the current plan is to merge the ais and esr branches
21:30:48 <AnMaster> ais523, however there is still that issue with ick generating C89 code that MPW doesn't like
21:30:51 <alise> The new release will probably spew neoconservative propaganda on startup. >:)
21:30:53 <alise> ais523: What, forever?
21:30:57 <AnMaster> ais523, something I never got around to trying to work around
21:31:05 <AnMaster> ais523, forgot exactly what it didn't like too
21:31:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: qemu does have VM snapshots, yes.
21:31:40 <AnMaster> ais523, esr made other changes?
21:32:08 <ais523> and none are particularly objectionable or controverisal
21:32:15 <ais523> not nearly as many as I did, anyway
21:32:20 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and another issue... I think I versioned it in bzr, I found darcs a bit annoying at that point.
21:32:44 <AnMaster> ais523, about binaries. Do you know about the two forks classic MacOS used to have?
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21:33:53 <AnMaster> my point is that while I could compile it for you, there is no way I could send it in a format that could be read anywhere except on classic mac OS. Either *.sit.hqx or *.sit.bin or .img.hqx or .img.bin
21:34:04 <AnMaster> created by disc copy for classic mac os
21:34:17 <AnMaster> it isn't an os x disk image however
21:34:26 <ais523> probably the sources are enough
21:34:40 <AnMaster> ais523, hope the patch applies cleanly and such
21:34:46 <AnMaster> probably doesn't against last version
21:35:01 <AnMaster> ais523, and note: the patch is not ASCII or ISO-*
21:35:09 <AnMaster> ais523, it is MacRoman in part, this can not be avoided
21:35:18 <AnMaster> because MPW makefiles makes use of those symbols
21:35:34 <AnMaster> it replaces stuff like : in normal makefiles and such
21:36:11 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I'm not sure if that might change line ending in some other file. Probably best to be very careful with what you apply to your own ick from that. The fixes for generating paths should work though
21:36:29 <AnMaster> there is a lengthy comment there about why exactly and so on
21:36:41 <ais523> oh, I'd have to be utterly crazy to backport fixes intended to run on MacOS Classic
21:36:43 <AnMaster> and then there were some pepet.c changes since system() won't work
21:37:00 <ais523> clearly the optimal alternative would be to instead patch autoconf to handle that operating system
21:37:02 <AnMaster> ais523, no, I meant if you want to apply to your own branch
21:37:42 <AnMaster> ais523, the fix to generating paths and some of the stuff in perpet.c, plus some fixes to add some extra checks to configure.ac (unless I misremember) should all be fine
21:37:49 <AnMaster> the changes you should be wary about are outside the src dir
21:38:11 <alise> What character replaces : again?
21:38:25 <AnMaster> alise, eh, don't remember and doubt I could copy it anyway
21:38:42 <alise> You could recreate it with Unicode. Was it that S section symbol?
21:38:57 <AnMaster> alise, well let me open the file
21:39:14 <AnMaster> since *nix editor goes spare over this patch
21:40:25 <AnMaster> ais523, that was another issue yeah. macs mangle \r and \n in a way similar to windows. The reverse of it that is
21:40:36 <AnMaster> \r maps to \n and \n maps to \r
21:40:38 <ais523> I know all about classic mac line endings
21:40:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but how stdio mangled I meant
21:41:04 <ais523> if anyone asks me why people sometimes use \n and sometimes use code to generate a particular line ending
21:41:21 <ais523> I tell them that it's to work around a bug on classic Mac OS, and as nobody uses that any more they can just use \n safely
21:41:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: Has some sort of conversion happened to http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ick_classic_macppc.diff or is it the web server or what? If I wget/curl it, the file has UTF-8 0xfffd (Unicode "replacement character") in those places you'd expect uncommon characters.
21:41:51 <AnMaster> err, kate doesn't have macroman
21:42:22 <alise> Or crappy webserver.
21:42:35 <AnMaster> alise, doubt it, it servers it as application/octet-stream
21:44:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, ais523, okay, working on fixing up a new diff
21:44:30 <AnMaster> not using hg diff this time, it seems at fault
21:44:54 <ais523> are you going to replace the old one?
21:45:23 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, I'm going to try to diff against exported r1 (clean import) and exported last revision
21:45:39 <AnMaster> if that doesn't work I'll just upload both as tarballs or something
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21:51:17 <fizzie> Based on "iconv -f mac" and Wikipedia's "Mac OS Roman" table, it replaces the : in makefiles with ƒ -- unicode "latin small letter f with hook" -- and backslashes with ∂ -- unicode "partial differential". I remembered they were freaky from some MPW playing back then, but I didn't remember them to be quite *that* freaky, assuming the sources I looked at were correct.
21:52:10 <AnMaster> ais523, how urgent is this? I think it may take a few hours for me to figure out which dir is the current. since the sources on the mac image doesn't perfectly match the last source control version
21:52:41 <AnMaster> ais523, should numerals.c be part of libick.a?
21:52:41 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:53:14 <AnMaster> then this difference makes no sense
21:53:21 -!- nooga has joined.
21:53:47 <oerjan> and it's an august day!
21:54:31 * AnMaster sets mmap limit to 0 and starts sheepshaver
21:59:13 <oerjan> these logs are too long. again.
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21:59:49 <AnMaster> it is starting to make a tiny bit more sense now
22:00:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: that clearly means you are finally going insane
22:00:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, c-intercal port to classic mac os making sense, yes probably
22:01:00 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:01:10 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
22:09:15 <AnMaster> ais523, okay I made sense of the changes to the source. I will actually try to clean this up into several patches. Some of which should be applied to your own branch really since they are somewhat generic in nature
22:12:10 <alise> <fizzie> Based on "iconv -f mac" and Wikipedia's "Mac OS Roman" table, it replaces the : in makefiles with ƒ -- unicode "latin small letter f with hook" -- and backslashes with ∂ -- unicode "partial differential". I remembered they were freaky from some MPW playing back then, but I didn't remember them to be quite *that* freaky, assuming the sources I looked at were correct.
22:12:14 <alise> I think partial differential is backspace
22:12:20 <alise> since \{foo}\ is a var in the shell
22:16:36 <fizzie> It's used as a line-continuation character there, anyway.
22:17:30 <alise> I mean I've seen it literally where I'd expect a backspace, so I confirm your sources are correct.
22:18:26 <fizzie> Well, it's possible to just look at https://gforge.uni.lu/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/*checkout*/tags/revision-1.0/expat-2.0.1/lib/Makefile.MPW?revision=271&root=hpc-ga-bench&pathrev=272 as an example, and set browser's character encoding to macroman.
22:18:54 <fizzie> I don't know what's up with the "{•foo•}" bits though.
22:19:45 <fizzie> Or the local sed-alike invocation: StreamEdit -d e "/•('XMLPARSEAPI('≈') ')«0,1»'XML_'([A-Za-z0-9_]+)®1'('/ Print 'XML_' ®1" "{HdrDir}expat.h" > {Targ}
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22:39:35 <AnMaster> ais523, see http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ick-mac-patches.tar.gz
22:39:54 <AnMaster> that tarball contains a directory of patches
22:40:05 <AnMaster> should make it easier to apply
22:40:17 <AnMaster> that is against ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz as far as I know
22:40:32 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and configure will need to be regenerated afterwards
22:40:44 <AnMaster> ais523, it only includes diff to configure.ac, not to configure itself
22:41:05 <alise> Mac Roman, Macro Man.
22:41:15 <AnMaster> alise, yes I checked the file in the tar ball
22:41:24 <AnMaster> it contains strange stuff that is not 0xfffd
22:41:30 <alise> I wasn't saying anything about you.
22:44:24 <alise> Meanwhile, for no reason, a classic PFSC: http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/comics/00000028.gif
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22:47:39 <AnMaster> ais523, btw I get why you want to build all historic ick versions. But what has knuth got to do with it?
22:47:59 <ais523> he seems to want a new version
22:48:14 <alise> He wants esr to make a new release, because he is including a C-INTERCAL program in his next book.
22:48:22 <alise> AnMaster: to merge all branches into one
22:48:31 <ais523> and yes, easier to merge branches if you know what they are
22:48:34 <AnMaster> alise, would be lovely, but is improbable
22:48:40 <alise> AnMaster: that's what Knuth wants.
22:48:44 <alise> AnMaster: esr and ais523 are participating. there is nobody else.
22:48:47 <alise> so it is happening
22:48:57 <alise> besides, you can't disappoint knuth
22:49:03 <alise> upsetting knuth is like ... Basically, just kill yourself.
22:49:05 <alise> AnMaster: i doubt TAOCP
22:49:08 <alise> probably some other book.
22:49:17 <alise> Although ... that would be awesome.
22:49:31 <AnMaster> yes but unlikely since it isn't written in MMIX
22:49:34 <alise> "Here we present rinky-dink sort in INTERCAL, a popular programming language."
22:49:53 <alise> "We can contrast the structure with the MMIX version, as they both have very different control structures. However, there are some similarities."
22:50:05 <alise> Knuth's new O(1) sorting algorithm over any list.
22:50:06 <AnMaster> it sounds like it would only be efficient in INTERCAL, whatever it is
22:50:15 <alise> That's why it's important to get a new release.
22:50:25 <ais523> it's rare for INTERCAL to be more efficient than other languages, except in lines of code
22:50:29 <ais523> because it's compiled via other languages
22:50:53 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, at least one of the patches in that tarball fixes a code gen error that makes generated code sometimes not valid C89
22:51:07 -!- ais523 has left (?).
22:51:26 <AnMaster> <for log reading>: ais523, basically without 04_output_valid_c89.patch you can sometimes get zero length static arrays in the generated output
22:51:33 <alise> He doesn't logread.
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22:53:53 <AnMaster> oh and btw, not all of that can be compiled in sheepshaver. it is too buggy. I remember some file crashing sheepshaver. Had to compile it on my old ibook then copy the object file over
22:54:38 <zzo38> Finally I got the Icoruma->TeX to work. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.dvi
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22:57:06 <zzo38> Now is the time you ar expected to complain about the formatting being no good ...
22:57:48 <AnMaster> pdftex produces better results
22:57:53 <AnMaster> and pdf is nodways an open format
22:58:15 <alise> AnMaster: it won't be better unless he uses lmodern
22:58:21 <alise> and i don't think there's plain tex support for lmodern.
22:58:38 <zzo38> I can make it produce PDF as well, if you want.
22:58:39 <AnMaster> dvi2ps -> dvi2pdf actually produces worse results than pdflatex
22:59:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, my point is, avoid going over dvi
22:59:33 <zzo38> OK I have now both DVI and PDF.
22:59:42 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.pdf
22:59:57 <AnMaster> zzo38, with hyperref (latex only? I have no idea) you can get clickable links for the TOC in the pdf and so on
23:00:06 <alise> hyperref is latex only
23:00:13 <alise> like everything else
23:00:23 <AnMaster> zzo38, why are you using plain tex instead of latex?
23:00:29 <alise> he considered latex too complex
23:00:33 <alise> and couldn't get tables working properly.
23:00:45 <alise> don't knock plain tex/dvi too hard though, Knuth still writes everything in it :-D
23:00:51 <zzo38> AnMaster: Because Plain TeX works better, and I understand it.
23:00:55 <alise> although he has impeccable typographical taste
23:01:09 <AnMaster> zzo38, one minor point, on page 9 there is a table, the table is left aligned while the "Table 2-1" caption is centered
23:01:19 <AnMaster> zzo38, would probably look better if both were the same
23:01:28 <AnMaster> I would go for both centered in a float
23:01:29 <alise> both should be centred
23:01:38 <alise> centred, not centered :P
23:01:54 <Sgeo> alise, you're no longer in the ()?
23:02:14 <zzo38> AnMaster,alise: Yes I do believe you. I just haven't completed it yet, but the part that works it now works. I will fix these things
23:02:17 <Sgeo> Sorry, me being silly obfuscating what I mean.
23:02:59 <zzo38> (However, I believe there is a way of doing hyperlinks with Plain TeX, since I have seen CWEB printouts that use it (and CWEB uses Plain TeX)
23:03:18 <zzo38> You might have to use \special or whatever, though
23:03:37 <AnMaster> was worried something was broken at first
23:03:48 <zzo38> Some authors do not like hyphenation
23:04:08 <zzo38> I turned off hyphenation in tables, for one thing, otherwise I would keep getting overfull hboxes
23:04:10 <AnMaster> well, tex is quite good at avoiding it when possible
23:04:37 <AnMaster> zzo38, well in tables it might make sense. Also overful hboxes is not really an issue unless something actually looks wrong in the result
23:04:38 <alise> Sgeo: i'm there - as daypatient, thrice weekly.
23:04:49 <Sgeo> That's better than before, at least
23:04:54 <alise> hyphenation is a Good Thing
23:06:05 <AnMaster> zzo38, quite nice. The only issue I saw was that table not being centred
23:06:17 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, and it will be fixed later on.
23:06:18 <AnMaster> and that using pdflatex with lmodern would produce better results
23:06:43 <zzo38> I have both PDF and DVI now. But I am not using LaTeX
23:06:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Bye for now).
23:06:55 <AnMaster> the font manages to be a bit blurry on my monitor
23:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, AnMaster, you're good at paging and stuff, right?
23:10:35 <Gregor> I'm good at paging and stuff?
23:11:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, on x86-64 can you page to an address that the machine doesn't support?
23:11:18 <alise> I guess 'cause you're BORING :P
23:11:56 <alise> I want Wooble to be a jerk to me again so I can whack him with the institution bat. >_>
23:15:20 <alise> An Agora player; tends to be an asshole. To everyone.
23:15:53 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I do think you can use all 48 bits in virtual addresses; 40 bits is just how many physical address bits there are.
23:16:14 <fizzie> Doesn't it pretty much say that? "address sizes : 40 bits physical, 48 bits virtual"
23:16:50 <fizzie> Oh, like that Facebook relationship status.
23:17:02 <oerjan> fizzie: i think alise has been encouraging him
23:17:43 <alise> We don't need 64 ...
23:18:41 <fizzie> Oh, this is some sort of SECRET POR-JECT of you folks. Sounds SUSPICIOUS; expect a visit from the COPS, just in case it has to do with 64-BIT DRUGS.
23:19:27 <fizzie> I hear digital drugs are the latest thing: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/07/digital-drugs/
23:19:38 <oerjan> fizzie: they're persistent offenders
23:20:16 <fizzie> alise: They're gateway drugs to really dangerous sequences of bits.
23:20:23 <alise> Heh; available on YouTube. Even if they did work that will utterly destroy any actual binaural qualities in it.
23:20:32 <alise> There's a reason binaural things are distributed losslessly.
23:21:53 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:21:54 <oerjan> alise: the article _starts_ talking about MP3s...
23:22:20 <alise> People use MP3 to mean any audio file nowadays.
23:22:42 <alise> I wouldn't put it past Wired, let alone a *blog* on wired.com.
23:23:11 <fizzie> (at least here) use "MP3" to refer to portable media players.
23:23:17 <fizzie> "How many songs do you have on your MP3?"
23:23:28 <fizzie> "My MP3 is the red one: it can store more songs than the silver one."
23:24:31 <fizzie> The same people use "web" to mean "a instant messaging conversation performed with the aid of a webcam". As in, "I was in web with so-and-so, and ..."
23:24:44 <oerjan> alise: the wired articles doesn't really seem to be taking this seriously :D
23:25:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:26:22 <oerjan> language: driving prescriptists mad since the ancient babylonians
23:26:34 <oerjan> *prescriptivists...dammit
23:27:06 * oerjan should have just dropped his own correction and chastised alise for taking the hook
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23:27:22 <alise> oerjan: how ironic
23:28:09 <alise> I never meta very I didn't like.
23:28:36 * oerjan isn't sure what his mouth is doing
23:29:16 <AnMaster> <alise> There's a reason binaural things are distributed losslessly. <-- ?
23:29:34 <alise> Fnord fnord fnord fnord.
23:29:43 <alise> AnMaster: because they require lots of crazy pitches and shit to "work" (if they do work at all)
23:29:55 <alise> psychoacoustic compression is designed for the sound of music and the like, not precision
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23:31:06 <oerjan> sounds like the perfect weapon for those evil-AI-in-a-not-quite-perfect-box things
23:31:14 <fizzie> It's not strange that something you're not supposed to consciously notice is messed by a compression method based on keeping only noticeable features of the sound and throwing away all the rest.
23:32:11 <fizzie> Especially the "joint stereo" stuff would probably horribly break all that fluff. Assuming any of it does anything, that is.
23:36:05 <fizzie> Also: who's responsible if a low-bitrate encoding of a drug-soundclip causes some kid to think he's an orange and peel himself with a knife? The codec author? Ratifier of the corresponding standard? These are important questions.
23:36:58 <fizzie> See the wired link for contect.
23:39:20 <AnMaster> alise, fizzie, after reading the wired link I can only conclude that people from the onion invaded their office
23:46:51 <oerjan> maybe they've been listening to drugs
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