00:00:03 calamari: Uhhh, that's exactly what I thought you meant :P 00:01:00 ok 00:01:10 well thanks for getting me past that first hurdle 00:01:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 00:01:27 Gregor: Cyriak <3 00:04:38 Gregor: link me to that teddynom thing 00:07:14 http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif 00:07:25 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:07:37 oerjan has it bookmarked 00:08:17 actually i just typed codu and selected from the suggestions menu :D 00:11:12 wrt hackiki: i think it should be as a wiki on the side 00:11:18 I've been stepping through the Ubuntu install then forgetting about it for like hours now. 00:11:24 (Expert install) 00:11:27 if it's a bit too dangerous, we could consider using jsmips 00:11:35 It's not dangerous. 00:11:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:11:46 if the server runs freebsd then you can jail it 00:12:52 Is there no-one sane in this channel? 00:12:59 we have slight doubts about AnMaster 00:13:17 otherwise, no. 00:13:34 AnMaster is just "not sane" not "insane" 00:13:43 I thought AnMaster was excessively sane 00:13:47 as its own form of insanityt 00:13:49 *insanity 00:14:09 well there _could_ be someone sane among the people who never speak, i guess 00:15:51 ais523: have you seen AnMaster's optimisation options? 00:16:01 he's so sane crossed into the region of unsane 00:16:04 which is like insane but boring! 00:16:49 ...why did i not see Phantom_Hoover left just before i quoted him 00:16:59 THAT'S IMPOLITE, YOU RASCAL 00:17:31 especially since i'm pretty sure he doesn't read the logs. unless my previous hints have gotten through to him. 00:20:13 maybe he meant if you've checked from DSM you can't be sane <-- clearly anyone who checks stuff in the DSM has OCD at least 00:21:11 or hypochondria 00:21:55 although, do hypochondriacs usually go for _mental_ diseases? 00:22:00 no 00:22:21 (well, frequently. obviously not usually.) 00:23:48 Because we need someone sane to vet our Lisp OS ideas. 00:24:06 lisp is just an easy isomorphism to combinatory logic with mutation, anyhow. 00:24:50 We so totally don't, anyway. 00:24:53 Insanity sucks. 00:25:12 oh wait, you said _sane_. never mind. 00:26:10 sanity is kinda good 00:26:20 technically you need to stick within reasonable limits 00:26:25 and then you can go loose 00:26:36 so it's kinda like sanely insane 00:27:09 it's sane enough to reach levels of insanity which top pure insanity 00:27:20 this DOES kinda make sense if you think about it 00:27:28 erm 00:27:29 Sanity sucks. 00:27:35 compare: 00:27:53 "those guys run so fast and coordinated tied together, it's insane" 00:27:55 versus 00:28:10 "those guys keep getting tangled up and jerking each other around with the rope, it's insane" 00:28:25 i personally believe the former to be better 00:28:41 also consider nukes 00:28:48 * oerjan knew he should have listened to the voices telling him to drop the subject 00:29:12 if there was no sanity in building the nukes, there would be no working nukes 00:29:29 And ... that's a bad thing? 00:30:00 well, the "firepower" is a higher level of insane than if you were to just let people be loose and uncoordinated 00:30:10 i quite like organised sanity 00:30:13 erm 00:30:17 organised insanity 00:30:33 another example: forming a huge huge mob 00:30:43 and just swarming everywhere 00:31:29 i can't tell why you'd use nukes as an example. 00:31:52 mobs suck too 00:32:25 i think a nuke demonstrates the point of "organised insanity" in that the power of a nuke is INSANE 00:32:42 and by "mob" i mean a group of people gathered together 00:33:47 the people who thought up how to make nukes were mostly loner insane geniuses, I'd say. 00:33:50 the actual building, maybe not 00:35:08 and if the only people who had anything to do with the nukes were insane then they would not have been made 00:35:20 well, too insane 00:38:20 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined. 00:38:27 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:39:02 GreaseMonkey: you're denouncing insanity in #esoteric 00:39:04 sheesh man. 00:39:29 no i'm not, i'm promoting "organised insanity" 00:39:33 ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 000082bc 00:39:40 that's gotta be what is causing my segfaults 00:40:26 oops 00:40:29 4 A person who was involved in a car accident was mistakenly pronounced dead at the scene by an ambulance officer. However, during the removal of the body, the victim was found to be still alive. Rushed to hospital, they died there later. 00:40:51 *the* victim was found... *they* died there later 00:41:43 *the* reader was anal... *they* were used to programming in esoteric languages 00:41:53 :) 00:43:30 hmmkay 00:44:10 where's phantom_hoover got to... 00:45:03 conspiring with his phantom friends 00:49:48 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:50:38 Now I got a "! Misplaced \omit" error. 00:51:00 It says "\multispan ->\omit" "\hline\end{tabulary}" 00:52:39 I also got undefined control sequence \TY@F4 00:52:50 I don't have any such control sequence in my document, I don't have \omit either 00:53:21 You're using some LaTeX command wrong, I guess; by causing it to do that. 00:53:43 Is "\hline\end{tabulary}" wrong? 00:53:51 Or am I using "\multispan" wrong? 00:54:20 I don't even have "\multispan" or "\omit" on this document! 00:55:03 If the hline thing is in your document, that must be wrong. 00:55:11 Put your document on sprunge and I'll have a look. 00:55:45 You can access it at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.tex 00:56:35 grmbl grmbl files that won't display in the browser 00:57:57 oerjan: I know in the browser I use I can push "t" to force display as text. But you can also use curl or wget to get the files, or use the view-source: function in the browser 00:58:07 zzo38: Strange: I cannot see an error in your code. Does it give a hint as to what line? 00:58:26 Line 49 00:59:14 Also, there is a lot of other problems too, table headings are formatting incorrectly, it also badly formats tables that take up multiple pages 00:59:18 zzo38: yeah yeah i know it's useless to complain you all just say "install linux and firefox" 01:00:17 It also prints "_LOOKUP _OF_SKILLS" at the top of the table of contents, for some reason that I don't know. 01:00:19 (i can easily save it and open in vim, it's just one click too much to bother.) 01:01:44 Also, it *still* says the Introduction is on page 3 even after I converted it to LaTeX, even though the Introduction is actually on page 7, just like before. 01:02:59 Also the contents entries for the different spells levels are not lined up properly 01:04:18 the problem with view-source in IE is that it doesn't become available before the browser actually displays the document _somehow_. i cannot get past the save/choose program dialog box. oh well. 01:05:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:05:07 Tables are still badly formatted, worse than before, even. 01:05:36 There are also two blank pages before chapter 5 and chapter 6 01:05:53 ooh, bet you can't guess what THIS does: http://www.ioccc.org/1994/tvr.c 01:06:02 See main.dvi 01:06:11 What table command are you using? 01:06:26 oh yay TeX... amirite? 01:06:29 zzo38: Do not use multicolumn for tables! 01:06:42 zzo38: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Tables 01:06:48 use the tabular environment 01:06:59 GreaseMonkey: Something with X, I suppose? 01:07:15 zzo38: yes, but look at what it spells out 01:07:30 Z <- Z^2 + C = ? 01:07:45 mandelbrot. 01:08:08 correct! 01:08:16 actually it spells Z -> Z^2 + C ? 01:08:42 alise: I did look at that tables 01:09:07 But {tabulary} is needed to make it automatically wrap text in columns 01:09:10 You're using multicolumn, though, which does not do the proper formatting for tables. 01:09:11 But it still does it badly 01:09:18 Howso? 01:09:28 By default, if the text in a column is too wide for the page, LaTeX won’t automatically wrap it. Using p{width} you can define a special type of column which will wrap-around the text as in a normal paragraph. You can pass the width using any unit supported by LaTeX, such as pt and cm, or command lengths, such as \textwidth.You can find a complete list in appendix Useful Measurement Macros. 01:10:01 I can't use that because it has to be generated automatically from the .irm files 01:10:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:10:51 zzo38: tabularx 01:10:58 \begin{tabularx}{\linewidth}{...tablespec...} 01:11:54 It also says I need "supertab" for multiple pages 01:12:09 Or "xtabular" 01:12:28 I don't know which ones I need or how they should be used 01:12:48 And the examples on Wikibooks do use \multicolumn 01:13:02 Which I try to use for the table headings 01:13:07 I think tabularx will work, no? 01:13:50 Does tabularx do all of these things? 01:14:13 Look at the main.dvi file (in the same directory as main.tex) to see what is going wrong!! 01:15:21 See that the "Character-Start Feats" table is partly off the page (on page 30) 01:15:42 I wish this was a pdf, so I could search it... 01:16:03 zzo38: you have two tables without a paragraph between them! 01:16:12 you need to use \par -- or, in stuff you write yourself, two newlines 01:16:56 See on page 49 it is cut off 01:17:57 OK, now it is a PDF. 01:17:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:18:22 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 01:18:32 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 01:18:44 What is wrong on 49? 01:19:35 The text is cut off (it should say "Duration" there), also there should be a line break before "Target" 01:19:56 Look also the list on page 48 is cut off 01:20:15 On page 47 there is too large space between section names 01:20:44 -!- Vegabondmx has quit (Quit: Vegabondmx). 01:21:09 And why is page numbers in table of contents is wrong? 01:22:02 -!- jcp has quit (Disconnected by services). 01:22:22 I think the formatting worked much better when it was Plain TeX, but that one had problems as well 01:24:13 -!- javawizard has joined. 01:24:20 (I still have the files for printing it with Plain TeX, they are different files than the LaTeX files) 01:24:53 (The Plain TeX one is called "icoruma_tex.php" and "icoruma.tex" while the LaTeX one uses "icoruma_latex.php" only) 01:25:04 -!- javawizard has changed nick to jcp. 01:25:55 At least I know how icoruma.tex works! 01:26:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 01:26:23 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 01:26:38 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 01:26:53 Whether I use Plain TeX (and icoruma.tex) or if I use LaTeX, it is still wrong! 01:28:56 Did tabularx not work? 01:29:23 alise: It has the same problem and everything is still broken. 01:29:28 It isn't only the tables that are broken. 01:29:34 What else is broken? 01:29:59 A lot of things are cut off, spacing is all wrong, page numbers are still wrong..... 01:30:22 The formatting is worse than the macro packages I wrote myself. 01:30:39 You have probably used the wrong code. 01:30:48 Since your document still probably has non-LaTeXy things in there 01:30:59 What is cut off? 01:31:06 What is wrong with the page numbers? 01:31:40 A lot of things are cut off, some of the tables are, also the list of spells and the spell descriptions are both cut off 01:31:52 The page numbers in the table of contents are not the actual page numbers for those sections 01:31:59 They are four less than the actual page numbers 01:34:47 LaTeX just seems much more complicated than Plain TeX, I am going back to using my own 01:37:07 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why VS2010 is working when the installer says it failed to install 01:37:31 Sgeo: Microsoft software is all like that..... 01:54:44 ta 01:58:27 Maybe Later I will work on this printout of the rules for Icosahedral RPG. 01:58:34 But now I will do other things 01:59:56 Biiiiiiiiiig Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeen 02:00:23 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:00:43 Now say terrify. 02:00:48 Now say tissue. 02:00:53 Now say them both fast together. 02:00:55 the name rings a bell 02:01:05 Do you ever wonder why women always get a place to sleep? 02:01:32 no. 02:01:53 * oerjan has no idea what terrifytissue is supposed to mean 02:02:12 Well, I suppose it is because it is the weaker sex. 02:02:19 I don't think so. I believe they are stronger. 02:02:20 zzo38: You /are/ joking, right? 02:02:24 Do you know why I believe that? 02:02:30 Because they get enough sleep, that's why. 02:03:04 xD 02:03:14 alise: Actually I am just quoting something from this pinball game, those are the speech they say in the background it is probably from some old movie or something like that 02:05:32 Wow! I'm really good! I hit all of the drop targets! 02:07:53 -!- andynth has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:08:03 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:15:36 -!- yiyus_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:18:02 dpkg lives!!!! 02:18:34 death powered killing golems 02:18:55 ooh death-powered, I like that :) 02:19:12 is there a special power released in death? 02:19:35 apparently. 02:20:35 now to see if I can compile egobf for android 02:22:36 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:28:54 -!- yiyus_ has joined. 02:40:26 well this would seem to answer my question except it doesn't work http://www.uclibc.org/FAQ.html#gnu_malloc 02:41:43 calamari: It doesn't work? How so? 02:42:14 egobfi8-bfi.o: In function `bf_interpret': 02:42:15 bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x74): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc' 02:42:15 bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x240): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc' 02:42:15 bfi.c:(.text.bf_interpret+0x34c): undefined reference to `rpl_realloc' 02:42:41 I got that. 02:42:44 But how does the solution not work. 02:42:57 Also, chalk that up to "when I wrote egobf, I sucked at autoconf" :P 02:42:57 export jm_cv_func_working_malloc=yes 02:42:58 export ac_cv_func_malloc_0_nonnull=yes 02:43:12 well I suck at autoconf*inf 02:43:22 Did you murder your config.status first? 02:43:30 I think that'll override exports if you're not careful. 02:43:48 trying 02:44:21 didn't help.. going to see if I can figure out how to add MALLOC_GLIBC_COMPA 02:44:25 +T 02:44:38 Uhh, presumably you're trying NOT to recompile libc here, right? 02:44:48 Oh, or are you not using Android's libc at all? 02:44:56 oh I was assuming that was something for autoconf 02:45:13 Nope 02:45:17 I'm using Android's libc.. bionic 02:45:36 Stupid fix: Configure, edit config.h to remove the relevant #define, and pray it doesn't regenerate it. 02:48:04 I think Gregor will like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMtZfW2z9dw 02:48:10 Available in stunning 1080p HD! 02:48:30 It just seems like the kind of thing Gregor would link in here ten times in five minutes. :P 02:49:45 Hey hey hey ... I don't relink things with that frequency all that often ... 02:49:50 Suuuure 02:50:11 lol the subtitles are hd, that's about it 02:50:27 Nothing wrong with HD subtitles! 02:51:17 ... wtf. 02:51:19 wtfwtfwtf 02:51:22 ftw 02:51:25 wat 02:51:32 I'll spam link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Xa4bHcJu8 instead 02:51:47 You just don't appreciate the beauty of music. 03:03:58 compiled.. trying it raw 03:08:37 I guess egobfc doesn't make much sense to include 03:12:06 so fast hehe 03:13:44 Gregor: apt will have to wait because it requires libraries I don't have yet 03:16:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=364dzVsBs2o#t=0m57s <-- This washing machine hates tomato plants. 03:16:25 Really, really loathes them. 03:17:30 -!- rodgort` has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 03:17:38 -!- rodgort has joined. 03:46:22 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:47:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:03:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 04:03:45 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 04:04:00 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 04:05:51 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/computergameidea 04:06:01 Which idea do you like/dislike? 04:09:03 "Sokoban on drugs!!" 04:10:26 Do you have anything to expand any of these? 04:10:34 Like, to add additional comments? 04:13:53 <6> is not a game 04:13:55 * oerjan ducks 04:14:22 Make it a game... with that title.... 04:14:30 *WHOOSH* 04:14:34 zzo38: pipe 04:14:40 think 04:18:08 Is SICP available free? Will I learn _good_ design from it? 04:18:22 What is SICP? 04:18:47 omfg 04:18:48 OMFG 04:18:50 I WANT <5> 04:18:52 WANT 04:19:56 Dislike the title-only ideas 04:20:10 Sgeo: You won't learn good design from it because it's nothing like C#. 04:20:34 alise, sarcasm, I presume? Or are you saying that I won't learn good _OOP_ design from it? 04:20:52 I meant you specifically won't because of C# Syndrome. 04:21:17 C# Syndrome? 04:21:32 I've known C# for less than a year 04:21:39 Sgeo: Yes I can understand you dislike the title-only ideas because it is only a title, it doesn't really help much, but it is possible to imagination more about what it might be like, a bit 04:22:14 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:22:14 I've known Python for... 6 years I think. If there's a Python syndrome, I may have it, but not C# Syndrome 04:22:52 Would you have any more specific ideas about anything on this list? Different people can have different ideas about it, I guess. And then if that is not specific enough other people (including me or even other people who did before) can add on to that, and so on 04:24:17 <13> sounds like it would be an interesting puzzle game 04:24:43 How is <5> not a subset of <8>? 04:24:44 Sgeo: It might, if I can think of how it might work 04:24:47 the magritte's pipes game could contain a lot of objects that look like pipes but turn out not to be when you pick them up 04:25:14 and pipe-looking landscape features, and such 04:25:54 Sgeo: <5> and <8> are two different things. By <8> I was thinking of something like "Tetanus on Drugs" (a GameBoy Advance game, Damian Yerrick wrote it and it is GNU GPL licensed) 04:33:59 Goodnight. 04:34:13 Night alise 04:34:27 Bye. 04:34:29 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:35:42 Did you know there are pink rotary payphones in Japan? 04:36:33 They are found in the back of issue 26:3 of 2600 04:37:46 can they be blueboxed 04:38:03 cheater99: I don't know. I wonder if someone has tried. 04:38:11 (Do you mean blueboxed? Or redboxed?) 04:38:37 (Redbox is the one for payphones, usually) 04:39:02 blue. 04:39:11 as in, the one that lets you do free international phonecalls. 04:39:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:39:29 cheater99: Yes, that is what the blue one can be used for 04:39:50 An early phreaking tool, the blue box is an electronic device that simulates a telephone operator's dialing console. It functions by replicating the tones used to switch long-distance calls and using them to route the user's own call, bypassing the normal switching mechanism. The most typical use of a blue box was to place free telephone calls 04:39:54 (Although to be specific, the blue box is simply used to generate a different type of tones than standard DTMF) 04:41:43 Silverbox is the one for generating sixteen DTMF tones. As far as anyone knows you can't make free calls with it, but it can be used to automatically dial phones or to send DTMF to a remote service that uses DTMF even if you have only a rotary phone. 04:42:04 However, I have tried this, the four extra tones do stop the dial tone on the phone I have at home! 04:43:02 So the service over here does recognize them, but might just treat any telephone number containing them as invalid, I don't actually know. 04:43:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:49:25 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: NO CARRIER). 05:10:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:11:07 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:15:33 idea: language where some commands are of the form 05:24:07 1 second apples and oranges? 05:37:17 Awesome :P 05:37:35 I just want "millenium hand and shrimp" to be legal 05:47:06 coppro++ 05:48:46 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 06:06:25 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:27:52 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:28:02 You haven't written it in green--your notes will be all wrong. 06:28:57 My conversion program Icoruma->TeX (without LaTeX) works completely perfectly when there are no tables involved! 07:00:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:01:46 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 07:05:12 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:21:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:34:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:55:47 -!- Flonk has joined. 08:56:15 Hi. 09:01:04 hi 09:01:22 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow). 09:01:42 -!- distant_figure has joined. 09:01:48 -!- distant_figure has quit (Client Quit). 09:02:05 -!- distant_figure has joined. 09:09:25 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow). 09:11:02 -!- distant_figure has joined. 09:27:23 -!- tombom has joined. 10:05:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:19:02 -!- distant_1igure has joined. 10:21:20 -!- distant_1igure has quit (Client Quit). 10:33:16 -!- nooga has joined. 10:34:13 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:36:58 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:51:33 -!- derdon has joined. 11:16:25 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:20:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:37:41 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:49:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 11:59:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services). 11:59:54 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 12:00:09 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 12:04:25 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 12:32:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:37:14 ais523, is your first name Alex? 12:37:21 yes 12:37:49 * Phantom_Hoover kicks himself 12:37:59 I always thought it was Adam for some reason. 13:20:29 I always thought it was ais523 13:25:42 ais523, what does the 'i' stand for? 13:25:45 Ivan? 13:25:49 not quite 13:25:53 Igor? 13:25:54 does it really matter, though? 13:25:57 YES 13:27:15 * Phantom_Hoover can't think of any other male names beginning with I... 13:28:14 Ian? 13:32:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:32:14 :( 13:46:31 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 13:50:03 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:02:11 -!- Flonk has joined. 14:02:15 g'day 14:05:15 -!- thanatos has joined. 14:06:10 -!- alise has joined. 14:06:21 thanatos? 14:06:31 yep 14:07:50 Phantom_Hoover: i have thoughts on os, will discuss soon 14:07:59 Ooh, thoughts! 14:08:16 os? 14:08:17 thanatos, are you sane? 14:08:30 nop 14:08:32 sane people ruin oses 14:10:29 alise, fair enough. 14:10:38 :P 14:13:19 something more about sane people? 14:13:32 ? 14:13:58 alise, what are the thoughts? 14:14:18 thoughts are illusion 14:15:26 thanatos: this channel is for programming 14:15:38 Phantom_Hoover: busy atm will tell in a little while] 14:15:40 *while 14:16:28 esoteric is about programming? :o 14:16:55 this channel is about esoteric programming languages 14:16:57 not esoterica. 14:16:57 sorry. 14:17:19 maybe try somewhere else than freenode, this is a programming network mostly, for an esoterica channel 14:17:23 don't believe you :) 14:17:30 ... 14:17:38 thanatos: see the topic 14:17:42 * Topic for #esoteric is: (a(:^)*S):^ | Should the esolangs community have a Hackiki wiki? (Wiki capable of running nearly-arbitrary code) Vote: http://poll.fm/23p9l | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D 14:17:44 some code 14:17:48 esolangs - esoteric languages 14:17:51 nearly-arbitrary code 14:17:55 or look at the logs 14:18:16 Phantom_Hoover: back me up here 14:18:36 em.... 14:19:12 cp alise alise.old 14:19:14 There. 14:19:23 har 14:19:33 Wait, now *I* need to go. 14:19:43 Phantom_Hoover: gah! for how long? 14:20:22 -!- thanatos has left (?). 14:22:14 -!- Fallensn0w has joined. 14:22:26 Phantom_Hoover: ? 14:22:27 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 14:22:42 hiya 14:22:48 hi 14:22:53 whats up 14:23:06 esoteric programming 14:23:43 lol ^^ 14:23:54 what lang? 14:24:00 any :p 14:24:06 lol 14:25:02 whats your fav esoteric lang lol 14:25:18 -!- relet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:25:28 underload or one of cpressey's or oklopol's, not sure which 14:26:00 -!- relet has joined. 14:26:03 oh cool 14:26:25 underload's easy to program in though xd 14:26:40 (cpressey = Befunge, noit o' mnain worb, 5000 others -- catseye.tc guy) 14:26:44 (oklopol = insane) 14:26:50 lol 14:42:58 -!- nooga has joined. 14:51:12 cpressey is probably one of the sanest persons in this channel 14:52:17 Fallensn0w: what have you done in underload? 14:53:23 oh fallen snow, i thought it was fall en[d]s now 14:54:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:56:20 Alex INTERCAL Smith 14:56:41 Phantom_Hoover is a bit slow isn't he 14:57:09 i guess this would make more sense if ais had chosen the name, now he'd have to have changed it 15:28:09 sweet, Intercal is an awesome given name 15:28:15 I wonder why I haven't realized before 15:40:50 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:48:34 cpressey is probably one of the sanest persons in this channel 15:48:41 haha, no 15:49:32 orly? 15:51:04 well he is the NIH every-system-sucks let's-reinvent-computing types; and, man, just look at his esolangs 15:51:33 who is the sanest person here then? 15:51:35 actually while trying to figure out how Whothm works recently I ran into this quote from the documentation... (sec) 15:51:47 "I'd love to tell you about Whothm, but first I need to tell you about Joanie, the Gnostic Babysitter. Have you seen her? She's a very normal twelve-year-old girl, with very normal twelve-year-old girl concerns — she worries if her friends will make fun of her for liking different music than they do, worries if that cute boy in home room likes her or not, worries if she'll be able to achieve a transcendant state of gnosis at the moment of her physical de 15:51:47 ath so that her soul may be freed from the reincarnation cycle. Because, you see, she's a Gnostic. Not just curious about Gnosticism, not just going through a phase, or anything like that — Joanie is a die-hard, demiurge-rejecting, rotten-material-world-shunning Gnostic. And she charges $15 an hour. 15:51:47 OK, now I can tell you about Whothm." 15:51:55 So, yeah, I would very much doubt sanity. 15:52:04 AnMaster: Hehehe... 15:52:33 alise, well, it isn't you :P 15:52:38 alise: but... every system *does* suck, and computing *should* be reinvented :P 15:52:40 It's you. 15:52:45 olsner: yes, but :) 15:52:47 I would say ais except for INTERCAL and feather 15:52:55 ais is definitely crazy. 15:52:58 it's you. it's why you're boring 15:53:06 hm 15:53:07 :( 15:53:13 (*not POV, others have called you the sanest e.g. oerjan :D) 15:53:17 alise, Deewiant is pretty sane too 15:53:30 hmm 15:53:32 he uses D. 15:53:35 wait, nvm, x86-64 asm for that dobela interpreter 15:53:36 so not sane 15:53:43 (% typos) 15:54:13 alise, olsner seems quite sane 15:54:20 no. 15:54:29 can't remember him doing much but idling and saying a few lines every now and then 15:54:34 alise: :) 15:55:34 alise, hm... Sgeo is not actually insane is he? ... Just obsessed. 15:55:51 but it is true that I mostly idle around here... 15:56:27 AnMaster: necrophile 15:56:33 alise, who? 15:56:36 AnMaster: sgeo 15:56:39 wf 15:56:39 AnMaster: & thinks C# is nice 15:56:40 wtf* 15:56:46 whoosh 15:56:49 oh wait, this is a PSOX joke 15:56:50 right? 15:56:53 no 15:56:59 activeworlds joke then 15:57:08 that is really as good as dead 15:57:09 yes, & other old VRs 15:57:15 coppro invented the necrophile thing :P 15:57:19 "The main purpose of trigraphs and digraphs is so you can say "neener, neener, you didn't do it right" to some poor sap trying to write a tool that processes C and C++ source code." -- Walter Bright 15:57:29 AnMaster: besides, all my esoteric projects are all idling right now, waiting for my compiler to mature so I have something to write them in :) 15:57:32 alise, XD 15:57:36 olsner: what, that M++ thing? 15:57:45 no, a different thing 15:57:52 cool, what? 15:58:10 alise, I have to admit... I used them for that a couple of times. Only against people who I knew wouldn't take it badly though 15:58:16 alise, oh and what about cpp and TC? 15:58:20 got anywhere with that? 15:58:35 AnMaster: I think cpp is on the border between TC and not. 15:58:52 If someone linked me to the Game of Life implementation I could see if the lists would work. 15:59:06 game of life implementation of cpp? 15:59:09 wtf? 15:59:13 alise: nothing fancy really, kind of C-ish with modules instead of includes, and some random syntax changes 15:59:36 olsner, gc? 15:59:40 AnMaster: other way around 15:59:41 GoL in CPP 15:59:47 olsner: shame, i was hoping some crazy functional crap :) 15:59:52 I have haskell for that 15:59:55 alise, ah, I would link you, except I never heard about it before today 16:00:03 olsner: haskell is insufficiently theoretical (type system is too weak) 16:00:09 AnMaster: it's what spurred the TC cpp discussion 16:00:10 but it has a finite grid 16:00:13 so it's not in and of itself a proof 16:00:16 aha 16:00:22 "in and of itself" is such a weird idiom 16:00:30 agreed 16:00:30 well, I do have a couple of ideas for crazy functional crap... dunno if/when I'll get around to implementing any of them though 16:00:47 alise, almost as weird as "x is all but y" 16:00:56 (which is probably not weird to a native speaker) 16:01:38 at least "in and of itself" can be expanded to "in itself, and of itself" 16:01:39 so 16:01:48 "it's not, in itself, and of itself, a proof" 16:01:53 which is a lot more parseable 16:02:06 I bet Swedish has crazy idioms, though. 16:02:12 AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/20100731_010-027.jpg -- it's quite color-bandy, since it was snapped with the phone's normal camera app with full-auto settings, and also the sun took a peek at some point so the lighting changed; I did try the "LDR, variable WB" exposure optimization, but it mostly got the foresty part the same green, but made the sky be horribly surreal. 16:02:32 (Should've just done raw with fcam, but it's a bit slower, and didn't want to inconvenience others.) 16:02:36 otoh, since I've been reading TaPL I will aim to get a proper type system into this language 16:02:36 int main(void) 16:02:36 { 16:02:36 auto a = puts((char[:>)<%a='a'+'\a',-~a,!(int<:'a']){[!!'a':>="a"<:!a]%>}); 16:02:36 return 0; 16:02:36 } 16:02:53 fizzie, tried ldr, variable but with camera response unchecked? 16:02:54 olsner: If it's as weak as Haskell's I will shoot you. 16:02:57 that tends to give better results 16:02:58 I've been thinking about just using simply typed lambda calculus as the type system 16:03:03 (If it has typeclasses I will shoot you.) 16:03:05 fizzie, need a small error still 16:03:06 AnMaster: Hm, no; I could try that. 16:03:11 olsner: doesn't work 16:03:18 olsner: because, we need a type *, being the type of types 16:03:22 and for A,B in * 16:03:27 we conclude A->B in * 16:03:28 whereas 16:03:31 for A,B in X 16:03:38 fizzie, way quicker too 16:03:39 AnMaster: It's approximately from here: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=60.215859,21.292362&spn=0.080239,0.208569&t=h&z=13 16:03:40 we conclude \(x:A). (y:B) in A->B 16:03:46 olsner: ^ so we can see that this does not work 16:03:54 why is my internet so slow 16:03:58 or wait 16:04:00 your upload 16:04:01 that's it 16:04:02 olsner: the original De Bruijn proof checker used that model but it caused problems, which is why the types are usually separated 16:04:27 AnMaster: Do you *have* to point out my lack of upload bandwidth every single time I share a picture? I'm depressed about it enough as is. 16:04:37 fizzie, sorry 16:04:59 fizzie, a tip: progressive jpeg tends to be a bit smaller than normal ones, for same quality setting 16:05:15 fizzie, 360°? 16:05:21 very nice though 16:05:27 Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill. 16:05:36 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:05:50 fizzie, oh and make sure you set the exposure reference image to one of the good ones 16:05:50 -!- alise has joined. 16:05:55 someone paste the last few lines plz 16:05:57 thx 16:05:59 :P 16:06:03 Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill. 16:06:04 * alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:06:04 fizzie, oh and make sure you set the exposure reference image to one of the good ones 16:06:10 more than that, I need 16:06:15 I missed more due to freeze 16:06:20 olsner: the original De Bruijn proof checker used that model but it caused problems, which is why the types are usually separated 16:06:21 AnMaster: Do you *have* to point out my lack of upload bandwidth every single time I share a picture? I'm depressed about it enough as is. 16:06:21 fizzie, sorry 16:06:21 fizzie, a tip: progressive jpeg tends to be a bit smaller than normal ones, for same quality setting 16:06:22 fizzie, 360°? 16:06:24 very nice though 16:06:26 thank you 16:06:27 Yes; it's from an observation tower thing up on a hill. 16:06:28 alise, freeze? 16:06:46 alise: hmm, I don't understand what you're saying, but do you have a reference to that De Bruijn proof checker you were talking about? 16:06:49 yeah, typing didn't work, nothing worked, ctrl+alt+f1 didn't work, just jerky mouse movements worked. 16:06:52 "Try drinking some antifreeze." (Note: do not actually try that.) 16:06:56 olsner: Freek has written about it. 16:07:00 alise, sysrq? 16:07:07 olsner: anyway: do you mean just using the STLC type system? 16:07:13 olsner: I thought you meant using STLC terms as types 16:07:24 using STLC terms as types 16:07:36 AnMaster: forgot to try 16:07:50 olsner: right. Well, you'd represent the type of a function from A to B as what, then? 16:07:50 alise, hm 16:08:00 alise, nothing in logs after reboot? 16:08:14 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:08:42 so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints 16:09:17 (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though) 16:09:29 -!- alise has joined. 16:09:32 It's fizzie's damn picture. 16:09:40 Makes Firefox hang the system when loading. 16:09:53 alise: It's just 9000 pixels wide, it's not *that* big. Especially compared to what AnMaster tends to post. 16:09:57 fail, I wrote two lines of response just between "alise has quit" and "alise has joined" 16:10:01 Well, firefox doesn't like it. 16:10:10 so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints 16:10:10 (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though) 16:10:10 08:08:42 so, you could say something like ((\x -> void(*)(x,x)) int) to write the type of a function that takes two ints 16:10:10 08:09:17 (that's not really the syntax I will use for functions or function pointers though) 16:10:11 Perhaps it's the content. Your system can't handle the pristine wilderness! 16:10:24 olsner: how hideously pointless is that? that's equivalent to (void (*) (int, int)) 16:10:47 obviously, in reality you wouldn't use it to write pointless examples 16:10:50 alise: It's just 9000 pixels wide, it's not *that* big. Especially compared to what AnMaster tends to post. <-- true 16:11:01 fizzie, but I always use progressive jpeg 16:11:03 olsner: well anyway there has been a lot of good research done on type systems and i recommend you pick a better one ;) 16:11:05 not sure if that affects anything 16:11:20 olsner: i guess O'Caml's type system might be a good one to look at? 16:11:31 then again, maybe your system will work and I am a hopeless ...theoretician; wow, that's a word. 16:11:37 fizzie, I still wish I had the stuff needed to make a 360° spherical at full optical zoom. HDR. 16:11:55 fizzie, that would be quite a bit over 100 MP iirc 16:11:58 AnMaster: Any sort of variable-wb seems to insist on freaky sky (but nicely matching greenery); I think it simply needs more-than-two-parameters color correction in order to make both the sky and the shrubberies (ni!) match. 16:12:10 XD 16:12:15 alise: it should surely "work" as in "produce types", the practical usability is a different question :) 16:12:38 olsner: of course. 16:12:40 fizzie, very strange that though... That it would need more than 2 var wb 16:12:47 if types are first order beings, then why not just call them sets 16:12:59 oklopol: Coq and Agda do 16:13:06 oklopol: except Coq has Type with Set and Prop as descendants 16:13:08 alise, what system specs btw? 16:13:10 since propositions aren't really sets that much. 16:13:14 alise, since firefox here likes it 16:13:15 AnMaster: more than good enough 16:13:22 AnMaster: CPU isn't the fastest, but it blazes all the time 16:13:30 alise, sempron 3300+, 1.5 GB RAM. 72 tabs in firefox 16:13:33 olsner: i do warn you that if you introduce a type system like that you will end up with a functional language with bad syntax, unintentionally :D 16:13:39 AnMaster: I guess the default camera app might do any sort of "color-correction" postprocessing. It does some sort of edge-enhancing thing and horribly artifacty noise reduction already. 16:13:40 alise, a bit slow to zoom in and out but otherwise just fine 16:13:41 AnMaster: yeah, well, evidently there's some issue here with that imgae. 16:13:43 *image 16:13:49 i don't really need you to brag about how your system manages it 16:14:21 alise, I'm just pointing out that my old system manages it. Are you using that old thing with windows xp barely running on it? 16:14:24 What what what the Brontosaurus and Triceratops never existed 16:14:28 I am crying 16:14:36 AnMaster: no, I'm running my good Toshiba 16:14:40 AnMaster: which has 4 GiB of RAM. 16:14:49 alise, no smell of solder yet? ;P 16:14:57 and, yes, only a 1.3 GHz dual-core Core 2, but dammit, ghz don't matter, it's fast 16:15:06 What what what the Brontosaurus and Triceratops never existed <-- ? The first got renamed didn't it? The second I have no clue about 16:15:10 and I usually have 100+ CSS-y Javascript-y tabs open in firefox, so nyah 16:15:11 or do you mean something more recent? 16:15:18 as in, breaking news? 16:15:24 http://gizmodo.com/5601514/the-triceratops-never-existed-it-was-actually-a-young-version-of-another-dinosaur 16:15:27 See the title in that URL. 16:15:35 So, yes, new news; just not breaking. 16:16:10 hmm, I may also try to introduce type-functions that can produce code ... so many different ideas, I'll probably end up implementing none of them! 16:16:27 alise, ah interesting 16:16:30 Oh: 16:16:31 "It was already known that triceratops skulls changed throughout their development, but not that the final result was a torosaurus. Torosaurus will now be abolished as a species and specimens reassigned to Triceratops, says Horner." 16:16:41 So more shoddy Gizmodo reporting. This is why I read engadget! 16:16:48 where is the date that was posted 16:16:53 olsner: type inferring is a bitch btw :P 16:16:58 AnMaster: sidebar at the top 16:17:02 gizmodo is also horribly laid out 16:17:05 ANOTHER REASON TO READ ENGADGET 16:17:14 ah there 16:17:17 although engadget's redesign is also shit. 16:17:29 alise, I'm not sure how dinosaurs apply to either site 16:17:42 alise: yeah, also it's awesome so I'd like to have that too :P 16:17:44 They tend to both include semi-random stuff the audience will like. 16:17:54 olsner: THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS 16:18:38 how large were those young triceratops? 16:19:04 dunno 16:19:15 but yeah, dammit, "Torosaurus will now be abolished as a species and specimens reassigned to Triceratops, says Horner." 16:19:20 Gizmodo ruined my childhood TEMPORARILY. 16:19:22 mhm 16:19:31 what? 16:19:42 I get the temp bit 16:19:43 And Gizmodo KEPT A STOLEN PRE-RELEASE IPHONE 4. 16:19:47 Engadget would NEVER be so evil. 16:19:49 :| 16:19:52 but I don't get why it would ruin your childhood 16:19:57 AnMaster: DINOSORZ 16:20:15 "I almost took this seriously and then I discovered it was on Gizmodo." --reddit THE PUBLIC ARE TIRING OF INFERIOR GADGETRY SITES 16:20:20 *I am only getting paid a lot to say this 16:20:29 what about them? 16:20:34 dinosaurs I mean 16:21:37 DINO SORRRRRZ 16:22:42 sorry, didn't get that. Too much static. Try resending with reed-solomon 16:23:11 Open sores 16:23:19 old 16:23:59 Well, Ubuntu Rhythmbox has finally jumped off the deep-end and now opens on the Ubuntu One ... view, tab, whatever, rather than the library. 16:24:05 Clooooooooooooooooud Stooooooooooooooraaaaaaaaaage 16:24:19 -_- 16:24:23 alise, in what version? 16:24:29 10.04. 16:25:01 Maybe it doesn't, maybe I did something. But I don't think so. 16:25:16 huh, doesn't here. Maybe I uninstalled that part early on. 16:25:24 since there is actually no such tab 16:25:25 at all 16:25:42 Probably you hid the tab or something. 16:25:57 Hmm, now it starts in the proper tab. 16:26:09 AnMaster: You have the side pane on right? 16:26:13 Have you got "Stores" hidden? 16:26:22 err, just closed it *reopens to check* 16:26:57 So, I gotta finds me a music player. Not Banshee, Banshee is iTunes. 16:27:02 yes, says Library with several headings under it: (reverse i18ned titles): play queue, music, podcasts, radio 16:27:04 Maybe Quod Libet like last time, but *eh* 16:27:08 then there is a playlist heading a bit below 16:27:14 AnMaster: and no Stores heading? 16:27:18 then you're not on 10.04. 16:27:33 containing some "my hig...", "last pla..." and "most recently add.." 16:27:39 I don't like Exaile because it uses vertical tabs and those are an abomination 16:27:41 no stores anywhere 16:27:52 and I am on luicd 16:27:59 Dammit, why has nobody created something as good as Amarok 1 yet :P 16:28:02 (Amarok 2 is crap) 16:28:22 alise, but I think I removed all packages that showed up on a search for ubuntu-one 16:28:30 AnMaster: That's probably it, then. 16:28:41 AnMaster: That probably uninstalled ubuntu-desktop. Maybe not the best idea. 16:28:53 alise, no, ubuntu-desktop is still installed 16:29:01 I think they were recommends instead of depends 16:29:02 or such 16:29:04 Huh. Okay. 16:29:08 I think I might do that. 16:29:15 Fucking Canonical. 16:29:26 alise, of course with recommends you probably need to override some setting to make it treat it closer to suggests instead 16:29:29 How dare they try and make a profit, darned company :P 16:29:38 alise, :P 16:29:46 It is terribly intrusive though. 16:30:03 alise, install debfoster 16:30:06 Grr, I really should just implement my Perfect Music Daemon and Client. 16:30:10 very good to clean up the mess after upgrades ;P 16:30:19 AnMaster: you don't need debfoster 16:30:22 and it's deprecated since 2006 16:30:26 alise, oh? 16:30:33 AnMaster: you do install with aptitude, right? 16:31:06 alise, varies. apt-get, aptitude or synaptic 16:31:13 AnMaster: well, do not use apt-get. ever 16:31:19 i always use apt-get 16:31:24 why? it's like using dpkg. aptitude is the official debian package manager. And, furthermore: 16:31:28 alise, it supports the "installed as dep" stuff 16:31:31 aptitude automatically debfosters on every action basically. 16:31:39 alise, yes that is annoying 16:31:43 and this is why 16:31:44 "As of 2006-01-01, debfoster is officially deprecated: aptitude does the same stuff as debfoster but integrated into the apt system. To convert your debfoster data to the aptitude database, use the conversion script." 16:31:48 I only want it to do that when I tell it to 16:31:52 AnMaster: Okay, then: "apt-get autoremove". 16:31:55 indeed 16:31:57 Where's your debfoster now? 16:32:01 In HELL. 16:32:21 alise, because it seems on jaunty the entire default package set was marked as manually installed by default 16:32:34 and that didn't resolve completely after upgrading to lucid 16:32:41 so there is where 16:32:51 Good lord, why do people suck so much as software. 16:33:02 hm? 16:33:29 Songbird? Wikipedia, why the fuck do you call SONGBIRD a music player? It's more like a hideous Firefoxed abomination that simultaneously rips off iTunes, makes it somehow SLOWER, and adds a bunch of crap! 16:33:31 Rage. Raaage. 16:33:39 "Linux support for Songbird was discontinued in April, 2010." and nothing of value was lost 16:33:59 AnMaster: tl;dr software sucks 16:34:02 mozilla dropped linux support in a product? 16:34:24 Songbird isn't Mozilla. 16:34:29 ah 16:34:30 It just uses Firefox as the base code or something. 16:34:32 that explains it 16:34:36 Because it wants to be hellish and awful. 16:34:39 Which it succeeds at. 16:34:55 It is literally the biggest, slowest, most bloated piece of software that only irritates you that I have ever seen. 16:34:59 X has been displaced. 16:35:18 alise, yes. Btw I started using mobile versions of sites that have that even on desktop. Stuff like the Swedish equiv of BBC and such 16:35:21 way faster 16:35:31 loads like in a snap, unlike their normal site 16:35:35 Hee, in Britain our BBC has a well-designed website by default that loads instantly. 16:35:40 and easier to navigate 16:35:44 alise, yes indeed 16:35:52 And it, unbelievably, has a clean and simple, typographically-oriented design! 16:36:04 /And/ it's actually standards-compliant, and uses /RDF/: 16:36:05 16:36:12 /And/ their devs have blogs and stuff. 16:36:14 alise, compare loading time: http://mobil.sr.se/ http://sr.se/ 16:36:23 OUR NEWS CORPORATION IS MORE GEEKY THAN YOURS 16:36:33 AnMaster: Wow, sr.se loads slowly and is ugly. 16:36:42 http://mobil.sr.se/ is a bit craply designed for screen though, obviously. 16:37:00 AnMaster: Now compare with our BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10830485 16:37:02 alise, wrt sr.se: agreed. It was better before the redesign about a years ago 16:37:03 I THINK WE WIN 16:37:08 (Might not load as quickly outside of the UK.) 16:37:16 and yes the mobile one is obviously designed for stuff like my phone 16:37:22 it works very well in opera mini on my phone 16:37:49 What I'm saying here is that if you don't care about human rights or not sucking, we are a better country than you. 16:37:50 alise, that loads a bit slow from over here. Slightly faster than sr.se though 16:38:07 alise, iceland ftw 16:38:16 It takes maybe 1 second or so from completely refresh load (including all CSS, images, etc. from scratch (forced)). 16:38:28 I assume you saw that stuff about Assange and media heaven on iceland? 16:38:33 With everything cached apart from the page it loads in maybe .3 seconds. 16:38:36 (however he spells his name) 16:39:08 Heh, googling his name returns a bunch of anti-Wikileaks articles in the mainstream media. 16:39:12 Because of the Afghan stuff. 16:39:20 "Julian Assange: is 'Wikileaker' a crusade or ego trip?" --Telegraph 16:39:28 alise, mobil.sr.se loads in a fraction of a second on a complete reload. the bbc link loads in about 1.5 seconds, sr.se in about 2 16:39:28 AnMaster: But no, I didn't see that. 16:39:39 Yeah, but complete reloads are pointless :P 16:39:42 And our site is better designed so nyah 16:39:46 And you don't have to use the mobile site 16:39:47 http://www.immi.is/ 16:39:48 alise, ^ 16:39:56 AnMaster: I did hear that Rejkyavik or whatever elected a joke party. 16:40:02 Which turned out to actually be the best party in the elections. 16:40:17 alise, check that link out. Assange planted the idea originally from what I read 16:41:09 Awesome. 16:41:21 If only they had more than four people in the entire country. 16:41:29 still, the laws are not in place, they just decided that they will design them and put them in place 16:41:47 (The four people are Bjork, two of the members of Sigur Rós (the other two are fictional), and the Prime Minister.) 16:41:57 alise, there is about the same number of people in this Swedish equiv of county where I live and on Iceland. Slightly less on iceland iirc 16:42:42 alise, Sigur Rós? 16:43:03 AnMaster: a popular (well, in indie circles) post-rock band from Iceland. 16:43:36 alise, anyway they have cheap energy on iceland. Thermal energy. Looks like a haven for green data centers as long as you put in a dust filter (ash in the heatsink can't be good!) 16:43:36 -!- cheater99 has joined. 16:43:54 Yeah. I just couldn't live somewhere so tiny, though. 16:44:06 hm 16:44:25 Well, as far as people go. 16:44:51 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Islande_-_Rekjavik_du_haut_de_la_cath%C3%A9drale.JPG This is Central Rekjavík. 'Nuff said. 16:45:11 how many inhabitants in Rekjavik? 16:45:57 118,427 in 277.1 km^2. 200,852 in 1,062.24 km^2 in the Greater Reykjavík Area (i.e. the only metropolitan area in Iceland). 16:46:07 (that latter total includes Reykjavík itself) 16:46:11 my guess is around the same as this town, which just happens to formally be a city. One of the last ones to become a city before they dropped the concept of special city rights (I think it was around 1920 or 1930 or so) 16:46:23 wait 16:46:29 118,427 inhabitants? 16:46:32 way more then 16:46:44 this city/town is like 20000 16:47:02 Total population of Iceland is 317,593, but the 100,000 or so not in the Greater Reykjavík Area just, like, live in volcanoes or something. 16:47:07 AnMaster: Well, it's still a very small place. 16:47:14 AnMaster: Besides. 16:47:20 AnMaster: The Greater Reykjavík Area is a large area of Iceland. 16:47:32 yeah, slightly larger than the largest city of this county-equiv. 16:47:34 AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/H%C3%B6fu%C3%B0borgarsv%C3%A6%C3%B0i.svg 16:47:40 AnMaster: That red portion is the Greater Reykjavík Area. 16:47:45 So really it's a county. 16:47:47 hm 16:47:51 alise, yeah 16:47:54 And consider that outside of there there is /no metropolises/. 16:47:58 Just villages and the like. 16:48:04 *there are /no metropolises/. 16:48:18 I'm not sure I would call Reykjavík a metropolis as such though 16:48:48 Newcastle, the nearest city to where I live, has 273,600 people in just 113 km^2. 16:48:52 In fact I'm pretty sure I *wouldn't* 16:48:58 So, yeah. 16:48:59 alise, that's pretty large 16:49:08 Yeah, but it's a "regular city" so to speak. 16:49:31 Oh, and Tyneside, a very small portion of England around it, has 800,000. 16:49:36 alise, remember that Stockholm including suburbs has about 1 000 000 inhabitants iirc 16:49:36 So yeah: Iceland is /almost empty/. 16:49:41 London is way larger than that 16:49:49 AnMaster: Well, Reykjavík has lots of technology and the like. 16:49:58 so UK "regular city" is larger than Swedish regular city 16:50:03 It is a very modern city with a lot of enterpriseyness (in fact, all of it in the country!) and the like. 16:50:06 AnMaster: London is not a regular city. 16:50:18 alise, well nor is Stockholm around here 16:50:19 AnMaster: London is /fucking huge/ by anyone's standards. 16:50:28 Greater London has /7,556,900 people/. 16:50:34 alise, Stockholm is fucking huge by Swedish standards! 16:50:39 In just 1,572 km^2. 16:50:57 and the Icelandic people must lack words to describe the size of london 16:51:15 "Thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand Reykjavík." 16:51:20 "Sorry, how many thousands was that?" 16:51:26 I can't be bothered to count 16:51:39 alise, scientific notation for the win 16:53:08 Maybe I should download those Afghan documents in case they get taken down. 16:53:18 Although they've gotta be on a billion torrents by now. 16:53:26 AnMaster: "This document, released by WikiLeaks on February 18th 2010 at 19:00 UTC, describes meetings between embassy chief Sam Watson (CDA) and members of the Icelandic government, together with British Ambassador Ian Whiting." 16:53:43 AnMaster: So much for supporting the Icelandic government for the Modern Media Initiative :D 16:53:49 alise, oh and London represents about 81% of the entire Swedish population (based on your figure and wikipedia's figure for the Swedish population) 16:54:08 London is basically a tiny country. :P 16:54:30 This (Finland) is a pretty empty place too, though the Helsinki metropolitan area is approaching something reasonably city-like in most scales; there's a tiny bit over a million in what's counted as the "urban area", and something like 1.3 million in those regions where 10 % or more of people have their jobs in Helsinki. 16:54:42 I think I would like Iceland, apart from the language 16:55:02 The language is pretty beautiful though. 16:55:11 fizzie: You have... things and people and other cities, though. 16:55:15 yeah but learning it? not a chance 16:55:24 I hate larger cities. a town on about 20000 is quite nice 16:55:26 "# U.S. Embassy profiles on Icelandic PM, Foreign Minister, Ambassador" 16:55:38 Are you /sure/ Iceland decided that initiative because of Wikileaks? :D 16:55:57 Where I am is quite a nice town. 16:56:08 11,139 people. 16:56:10 But it is a bit ... empty. 16:56:14 alise, well, I read a few news articles and watched a youtube interview of Assange from 2009 16:56:17 There's nothing much you can do at all, and few people. 16:56:22 it was that youtube video that made me look this up 16:56:26 where he talked about it 16:56:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexham 16:56:32 think it was from December 2009 16:56:52 The Abbey is a bit creepy. 16:56:58 Iceland has a very nice ranking on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density list -- 232nd, in a list of 239. 16:57:07 fizzie, :D 16:57:17 fizzie: Fucking Greenland! 16:57:29 Hey, Australia is cheating. 16:57:36 anyway that number is not very representative, I mean it varies hugely between different parts of most countries 16:57:41 Norway and Finland both are out of the top-200, but Sweden's in (194th). 16:57:42 Australia is totally dense in all the places where /there's actually any people/ :P 16:58:01 Rather than just three people playing digeredoos or however you spell it per square million kilometers. 16:58:07 having some kind of graph showing distribution of it would be nice, I admit I have to work a bit on what exactly to show 16:58:15 Hell yeah, Macau 16:58:16 It's representative of the fraction of people in the country and area of the country, nothing more, nothing less. 16:58:17 a map with color coding for density is obvious 16:58:24 but I wanted a x/y style graph 16:58:38 Macau has 18,534.247 people per square kilometre 16:58:41 *kilometre. 16:58:43 Beat that. 16:59:06 (Note: It is only 29.2 km^2.) 16:59:09 I mean, Sweden is very very unevenly distributed 16:59:17 Whoa, holy shit, Monaco is only 1.95 km^2. So what do they have apart from the Formula 1 track? 16:59:28 Everything is very unevenly distributed. Well, except places like Monaco. 16:59:31 in north Sweden you can go for miles without getting a GSM signal (unless you have Telia) 16:59:52 Why Telia? 16:59:54 and telia is only because the govt (used to?) own a large part of their shares 16:59:58 Ah. 16:59:58 alise, I was getting to that :P 17:00:31 "iPhone 4: Nu förändras allt. Igen." 17:00:35 Sweden is really bad at making things sound elegant. 17:00:42 alise, they used to be a completely state owned thing. But then there was that rage for making govt stuff private companies during the 1990s 17:00:43 Almost as bad as German. 17:00:44 *Swedish 17:00:51 AnMaster: We had that! 17:00:59 Thanks, Thatcher. 17:01:00 "Now everything changes. Again." 17:01:02 Thatcher. 17:01:04 "iPhone 4: Nu förändras allt. Igen." <-- "Now everything change. Again." 17:01:07 Wait ... that doesn't work. 17:01:10 I don't think You *can* make that sound good 17:01:17 it is like the worst slogan ever. 17:01:23 *you 17:01:27 and I think Telia invented it 17:01:30 err typo 17:01:31 it doesn't appear on Apple's site. 17:01:34 wait, no, it does 17:01:38 "This changes everything. Again." 17:01:48 slightly better than "Now everything changes. Again." 17:01:52 alise, telia managed to say that maemo was a browser in their desc for n900 17:01:53 XD 17:01:59 At least it tells you /what/ is doing the changing. 17:02:32 alise: It's "Nyt kaikki muuttuu. Taas." (which is very close to "Now everything changes. Again.") on Sonera's (the Finnish iPhone exclusivity-holder) site. 17:02:39 Hey, Apple finally did what they should have done instead of the Mighty Mouse, and released their laptop touchpad as a standalone device. 17:02:42 Was that really so hard? 17:02:42 Wait, Sonera? 17:02:48 AnMaster: TeliaSonera. 17:02:49 Isn't it TeliaSonera these days? Actually 17:02:50 yeah 17:02:54 was getting to that 17:02:59 WHY DO I KNOW THAT. 17:03:00 they merged or something 17:03:01 AnMaster: sonera in finland 17:03:02 it seems 17:03:03 http://www.sonera.fi/ 17:03:08 The brand's still called Sonera. 17:03:09 so {Telia, Sonera} are brands of TeliaSonera 17:03:10 alise, hm and telia in Sweden 17:03:22 I mean, on stuff like the SIM cards and such it says Telia 17:03:28 The corporation's official name has Telia in it, I believe. 17:03:56 I believe they use TeliaSonera for there tire1 stuff 17:04:11 Well, there might be also a company called "Sonera" still; corporate ownership is a jungle. 17:04:22 tier* 17:04:29 "# Fontvieille was added as fourth ward, a newly constructed area reclaimed from the sea (in the 1970s)" 17:04:35 Dammit, we deserve more space! RECLAIM THE SEA. 17:04:36 why do I always mix up tire and tier 17:04:37 (Monaco) 17:04:43 http://www.teliasonera.com/Markets-and-Brands/ lists that Telia, Halebop (in Sweden) and Sonera, TeleFinland (in Finland) are "majority-owned companies" of TeliaSonera. 17:05:16 oh yeah, halebop is the so-called low price brand 17:05:25 So's TeleFinland. 17:05:27 "Note: for statistical purposes, the wards of Monaco are further subdivided into 173 city blocks (îlots)" 17:05:29 WHAT THE FUCK 17:05:33 THE WHOLE COUNTRY IS LESS THAN 2 KM^2 17:05:39 only web support. And when I calculated on the costs, telia turned out cheaper 17:05:41 HOW CAN YOU SUBDIVIDE IT INTO 6 FUCKING REGIONS 17:05:43 how ironic 17:05:44 I thought halebop was exclusively pre-paid cards? 17:05:46 THEN SUBDIVIDE THOSE INTO 173 17:05:51 Also the so-called "obnoxious phone sales" brand. 17:05:54 each îlot must be like 17:06:01 one square millimetre 17:06:01 that was due to sucky student discounts for halebop and better ones for telia 17:06:09 olsner, nop 17:06:15 oh, ok 17:06:29 fizzie: http://www.tele.fi/ 17:06:33 The person scares me. 17:06:36 Also the mouse. 17:06:46 http://www.halebop.se/start 17:06:51 The woman scares me. 17:06:51 alise: Oh gods, the guy. You should see the animated commercials. 17:06:57 Also every other drawing. 17:07:14 fizzie: Thanks to the power of YouTube, I can. 17:07:18 alise: Yes, it seems you can. 17:07:29 Try the "skeittimummo" one for starters. 17:07:29 fizzie, is it as bad as that ISP... I think it is bredbandsbolaget or perhaps comhem? They use some animated figure too 17:07:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-xPfKnlFc 17:07:31 What. 17:07:34 * AnMaster looks at olsner for help 17:07:50 It seems that you selected the right one independently, too. 17:07:56 Bredbandsbolaget are the only Swedish ISP to offer 100 Mb/s internet, I think. 17:07:57 Why do I Know that. 17:07:58 *know that 17:08:00 *know that. 17:08:12 fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRYFwX-H3nY A 3D one. 17:08:12 AnMaster: I dunno 17:08:39 I don't watch television so I wouldn't have seen any such adverts 17:08:41 alise: Ooh, fancy. 17:08:46 alise: plenty others do too 17:09:12 and tele2 use a sheep. as a stupid play on sheep and cheap. which aren't even pronounced the same way, but do happen to sound quite close if you aren't good at English, due to Swedish missing one of those sound variants 17:09:13 -_- 17:09:24 We don't have a TV either, but I've still seen those commercials here and there; horrible. 17:09:46 Area Man[...] 17:10:24 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA-xPfKnlFc <-- oh god. What a failure 17:10:40 I don't watch TV. Could be as bad here. Don't know 17:10:42 Has anyone listened to an HDCD? 17:10:42 AnMaster: It's supposed to be "hip", you see. 17:10:52 alise: I have comhem 100/10 right now, used to have bahnhof before I moved here (which was technically 100/10 but they didn't seem to actually limit the upload) 17:11:19 -!- Warrigal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:11:35 remember that incomprehensible ad about cars. VW I think 17:11:53 this reminds me of that. But worse 17:12:06 Volkswagen adverts tend to be a bit strange. 17:12:16 alise, wasn't there something about pimp your car 17:12:17 or such 17:12:22 Nobody listened to an HDCD? 17:12:28 alise, what is an HDCD? 17:12:56 Some patented extension to Redbook stuffing more quality in there, some tricks to get 20 bits of signal out of 16 bit samples it seems. 17:13:00 Now owned by Microsoft. 17:13:22 alise, 20 bits out of 16? Go ask CSI for that 17:13:25 I'm doing some piracy; one of the rips is from the HDCD, so I'm just wondering whether it's worthwhile at all. 17:13:25 it's impossible 17:13:25 -!- Warrigal has joined. 17:13:30 unless you mean compressed 17:13:32 AnMaster: 17:13:33 or such 17:13:33 HDCD encodes the equivalent of 20 bits worth of data in a 16-bit digital audio signal by using custom dithering, audio filters, and some reversible amplitude and gain encoding; Peak Extend, which is a reversible soft limiter and Low Level Range Extend, which is a reversible gain on low-level signals. There is thus a benefit at the expense of a very minor increase in noise.[2][3][4][5] 17:13:33 HDCD encoding places a control signal in the least significant bit of a small subset of the 16-bit Red Book audio samples (a technique known as in-band signaling). The HDCD decoder in the consumer's CD or DVD player, if present, responds to the signal. If no decoder is present, the disc will be played as a regular CD. 17:13:34 In itself, the use of the first bit in the dithered least significant bit stream will degrade the sound quality on a non-HDCD player by decreasing the signal-to-noise ratio but only by a minuscule amount. HDCD Peak Extension, if chosen in HDCD mastering, will apply compression to the peaks which will be audible in playback on a non-HDCD system which does not apply the appropriate expansion curve. 17:13:55 Yes, based on the description it's more like 20 bits of dynamic range than 20 bits of precision. 17:13:59 Yes. 17:14:02 oh god... 17:14:19 good thing I haven't run into them. I hate noise 17:14:28 You don't have golden ears. 17:14:36 You can't hear it. 17:14:36 alise, and I doubt I could hear the difference between 16 and 20 bits 17:14:52 Hehe, if AnMaster is horrified by that, wait until he finds out what psychoacoustic encoders do. (I bet he thinks he can distinguish LAME -V2 from FLAC...) 17:15:27 alise, no I don't. I do however think I can hear a difference between your average non-lame encoder and flac :P 17:15:50 Well, if you mean the original one, or that awful one that I forget its name. 17:16:20 Doubtfully you could then hear the difference between 15 bits and 16 bits (w.r.t. added noise), especially if they're being clever with how it alters the least significant bit, and it sounds like they are. 17:16:54 Wait, why don't I just rip my own copy of the album. 17:17:00 Oh, right. I don't have a CD drive. 17:17:51 Eh, I guess I am too resistant to change; I will just download the regular FLAC rip. 17:18:02 alise, so you installed linux with usb stick? 17:18:04 ...although the HDCD version does have more seeders... 17:18:06 or pre-installed? 17:18:08 or netboot? 17:18:49 alise, I'm pretty sure you can play an ISO 17:18:50 AnMaster: Actually, I had no USB stick to hand! I used unetbootin -- random Linux ISO to USB stick + if on Windows USB bootloader installed, program, very useful -- to extract the Ubuntu ISO to the Windows drive (it can do that). 17:18:57 if nothing else, by using loop mount 17:19:00 I then booted up with the Unetbootin option in the Windows bootloader on next boot. 17:19:03 err not mount 17:19:07 obviously 17:19:12 losetup still 17:19:13 And voilà: it booted Ubuntu from the Windows drive. 17:19:28 Partitioning was fun, since it saw the CD-ROM drive weirdly as it was on another partition, virtual and stuff. 17:19:37 So I had to do some lazy, forced unmounting, then remounting it so the installer didn't break. 17:19:39 But it worked! 17:20:09 alise, had to work on first try, I mean. you get one chance, loading the iso into ram. And then once you overwrite it, it has to work 17:20:22 AnMaster: Hm? 17:20:34 No, I failed the first time and even ended up with a GRUB 2 without any files, which could do nothing. 17:20:34 alise, unless you are dual booting? 17:20:38 Eventually I fixed it with a USB stick. 17:20:40 AnMaster: Yeah, dual booting. 17:20:47 AnMaster: This laptop helpfully came with a "data" partition on half the disk. 17:20:49 So I just used that. 17:20:50 XD @ that fix 17:21:07 data partition, huh 17:21:14 Specifically, I used Unetbootin on the really shitty computer to get a USB stick with GRUB on it. 17:21:20 I then used GRUB to chainload the Windows bootloader. 17:21:25 hah 17:21:27 Once booted in, I used Unetbootin again, and this time did it right. 17:21:34 And, unbelievably, it worked. 17:21:39 AnMaster: Yeah, separate OS/data partition. 17:21:40 Like /home partition. 17:21:45 But more manual. 17:21:51 right 17:21:58 how large drive? 17:22:07 Hmm, why do I have six and a half gigabytes of swap? 17:22:18 AnMaster: 250 GB total. 17:22:32 hm, 17:22:48 AnMaster: 419 MB of what I think is some restore partition, 125 GB unused stock Toshiba-branded Windows 7, 118 GB ext4 Ubuntu, 6.4 GB inexplicable swap. 17:23:07 118 GB, won't last long 17:23:10 wouldn't for me at least 17:23:14 Consider that this laptop has a battery that lasts almost as long as a netbook's, is basically as light as a MacBook Air, 17:23:15 You can't "play an ISO" if you mean a regular .iso image of an audio CD, because regular .iso images are made of the 2048-byte data sectors, while audio CDs put 2352 bytes of audio data per frame, with less error-correction code. 17:23:32 has a wonderful screen that is glossy yet this is unnoticeable, but since it's not matte it's usable in daylight, and very high dpi, 17:23:40 has a good keyboard for a laptop 17:23:41 etc. 17:23:45 So I'm happy. 17:24:19 fizzie, wouldn't that be reflected in the iso file? 17:24:50 I'm voluntarily using this laptop instead of my iMac. So, yeah, I like it. 17:24:53 alise, does it have fluid drains from the keyboard? 17:25:06 No. Wouldn't you just tell me not to spill things, anyway? 17:25:07 alise, a trackpoint? 17:25:14 "Gee, you shouldn't be drinking near the computer." 17:25:19 No, but the trackpad is good and I'm just using a mouse. 17:25:34 alise, well I would avoid spilling things. It however nice to know that just in case, it is there 17:25:39 I don't drink near computer 17:25:40 I never said it's perfect. But all that list I gave you are things my laptop has and yours doesn't. :P 17:25:50 I drink near the computer, I'm just not in the habit of spilling things. 17:26:03 Besides, there's a protective layer of some sort underneath the keyboard, obviously; so you could just drain it manually if you really did spill something. 17:26:08 still, nice to know just in case, at university and such, Someone else might have a water bottle nearby 17:26:59 It's not like there's a circuit board directly underneath. 17:26:59 alise, how many express card slots? 17:27:05 AnMaster: 0. Thank god. 17:27:10 alise, why is that? 17:27:14 I never said it was your ideal laptop, just that it was mine. 17:27:24 AnMaster: No, because there's no metadata in the "file format", if you can call it that; it's just a dump of the data portion of a data CD. You couldn't even have multiple tracks in a .iso image. You can of course have a bit-exact audio CD image (in the .bin/.cue format, or some others), but it won't be a "ISO image" in the usual sense. 17:27:26 alise, well, I don't use the express card slot 17:27:30 AnMaster: PC Card esque things are a bit ... awful. 17:27:31 it is nice to have, just in case 17:27:40 alise, why? 17:27:42 Okay, so it's not even that big a deal. But! 17:27:48 The sides are all filled up. 17:28:05 I won't sacrifice a display port, one of the four USB ports, the Ethernet port, etc. for it. 17:28:09 Wait, maybe that is... 17:28:13 What is that? 17:28:16 Maybe an SD card slot. 17:28:31 one useless feature on my laptop: softmodem. There is a modem port at the back. I don't know why anyone still puts that in 17:28:36 ExpressCard is so confusing; there's all kinds of /34 or /54 things, what's up with the slashes. I grew up with PCMCIA/CardBus, and it was good enough for me. Get off my lawn! 17:29:26 fizzie, iirc I have one express card slot and one PC Card. Or something like that. When looking into the slots the connectors are different at the back anyway 17:30:21 however, a better use for that area would actually be re-arranging the internal components to have a larger battery pack instead 17:30:24 Right, they would be. ExpressCard/54 and CardBus/"PC Card" have the same width, but the PC Card connector is full-width. 17:30:29 would be heavier though 17:31:28 yeah, just checked, bottom one full width and top one less than full width 17:32:00 alise, how many usb ports? 17:32:10 Four. 17:32:15 Two on left, two on right. 17:32:19 alise, firewire? 17:32:22 None. 17:32:25 hah! 17:32:36 Ha ha ha, wait, I don't give a shit. 17:32:44 alise, displayport? 17:32:50 Yes. 17:32:50 iirc you said you liked it 17:32:52 hm 17:32:56 Or, at least, /some/ digital display connector. 17:33:01 They're so hard to tell apart these days. 17:33:16 alise, well, which one? isn't there some marking at it indicating which one 17:33:24 Yes. A rectangle. 17:33:28 Representing a screen. 17:33:40 that is what I have about the vga port on this 17:33:58 the DP one has a stylised D 17:34:02 It's especially hard now that they have three different sizes of standard HDMI ports. 17:34:12 fizzie, ... why? 17:34:29 AnMaster: Probably they were jealous of USB, which also has "normal", "mini" and "micro" variants. 17:34:40 alise, check xrandr. It just might tell you something useful 17:34:40 AnMaster: The three HDMI ports are also normal, mini and micro. 17:35:01 except mine tells me that VGA1, LVDS1, HDMI1, DP1 and DP2 all exist 17:35:03 HDMI1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 17:35:05 where only LVDS is connected 17:35:08 DP1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 17:35:08 so don't trust it 17:35:08 DP2 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 17:35:10 And VGA1. 17:35:11 So yeah. 17:35:14 ah 17:35:15 LVDS1 has the resolution list. 17:35:17 And the others don't. 17:35:19 well yes 17:35:23 LVDS would be internal 17:35:30 the other would contain external, if connected 17:35:53 it can't list monitor resolutions for unconnected monitors, obviously 17:35:56 Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 1366 x 768, maximum 8192 x 8192 17:36:00 8192 x 8192, fuck yeah 17:36:06 Will that fry my screen if I try it? :D 17:36:19 alise, that is X support or something 17:36:20 I think 17:36:22 or maybe GPU 17:36:27 you can't get that on the screen 17:36:29 Will it downscale it for my screen? 17:36:31 Or just burp. 17:36:46 alise, video mode not supported error *probably*, but who knows 17:36:58 alise, you might get that old style scrollable virtual screen thing of X 17:37:00 If it's not on the actual resolution list, it most probably won't do anything. 17:37:00 remember that? 17:37:02 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:37:21 on my desktop I get: Screen 0: minimum 320 x 240, current 1680 x 1050, maximum 1680 x 1050 17:37:24 which is strange 17:37:28 since I know the card supports more 17:37:30 I used more on it 17:37:31 Though I guess changing the virtual screen size is possible too; I just thought xrandr only handles the physical state of outputs. 17:37:53 wait, I don't think the xrandr thing is loaded 17:37:54 maybe 17:37:58 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:38:05 there is no invert stuff and such 17:38:23 indeed, not in the modules list 17:38:27 What, no support for rotations? 17:38:36 Oh, is this the nvidia binary driver? 17:38:45 fizzie, yes 17:38:54 It has horrible xrandr support. 17:39:00 hm 17:39:31 fizzie, okay. but until noveau supports 3D well enough for my needs I'm stuck on it. 17:40:01 There's some sort of attempted support that if you pass Option "RandRRotation" to the nvidia driver, it'll try to fake it so that you can set the orientation with it. 17:40:18 heh 17:40:21 How can I tell what card I have again? I don't know much about this system. 17:40:40 alise, lspci, Xorg.0.log, dmesg, lshw ? 17:40:40 AnMaster: On the other hand, "Workstation RGB or CI overlay visuals will function at lower performance and the video overlay will not be available when RandRRotation is enabled." 17:40:46 glxinfo too. 17:40:49 and that 17:40:59 OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 7600 GT/PCI/SSE2 17:41:08 xdpyinfo perhaps 17:41:11 not sure 17:41:36 It has even been reported, although apparently without historical documentation, that Adolf Hitler was influenced by concave hollow-Earth ideas and sent an expedition in an unsuccessful attempt to spy on the British fleet by aiming infrared cameras up into the sky[7] (Wagner, 1999).[8] 17:42:12 What is a shame is that good old "ethtool --identify" ("initiates adapter-specific action intended to enable an operator to easily identify the adapter by sight. Typically this involves blinking one or more LEDs on the specific ethernet port") isn't -- I think; I haven't really made a survey out of this -- implemented by many modernish drivers. 17:42:13 fizzie: I have no such line in my glxinfo. 17:42:37 Well, "lspci" pretty often works too. 17:42:45 OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset GEM 20091221 2009Q4 17:42:46 OpenGL vendor string: Tungsten Graphics, Inc 17:42:46 OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset GEM 20091221 2009Q4 17:42:47 Ah, there we go. 17:42:55 So /that's/ why the graphics are so good on this. 17:42:55 wtf is tungsten graphics? 17:43:06 AnMaster: the Mesa developers, I think 17:43:07 alise, hey you have same as mine 17:43:11 it seems 17:43:17 Great card, innit. 17:43:21 alise, not really 17:43:24 The Mesa 3D Graphics Library Developer(s) VMware (previously Tungsten Graphics)[1] 17:43:29 alise, might have improved recently 17:43:32 AnMaster: Well, I like it. 17:43:35 Works great with Linux. 17:43:37 Absolutely great. 17:43:53 Tungsten Graphics apparently also maintain DRI. 17:43:56 alise, well, it (used to?) render some games incorrectly. But I haven't tried them since jaunty 17:44:00 so stuff might have changed 17:44:07 *sigh* I hate light pollution. 17:44:20 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Light_pollution_country_versus_city.png 17:44:41 What I wouldn't give to live in somewhere with as wonderful skies as the top image but with, you know, modern conveniences. 17:45:31 alise, oh and, last I tried (again under jaunty) my laptop failed to drive my desktop monitor at full res, It supported lower and higher but not the same as native 17:45:50 What resolution? 17:45:58 Around here it looks like the lower pic, except more orange. (We have lots of low-pressure sodium-vapor streetlights.) 17:46:01 alise, 1680x1050 17:47:00 bbl 17:47:24 * alise downloads the HDCD rip. 17:47:26 Why not, I guess. 17:47:30 It's the only one with enough seeders. 17:48:03 Does the info say if it's done by actually decoding the HDCD signal, or just out of the HDCD CD? 17:48:19 (It sounds like software support for HDCD isn't exactly widespread, since, you know, patented.) 17:48:30 fizzie: Decoded with DSP. 17:48:35 By dbpoweramp. 17:48:42 Into a 24-bit container, with 4 empty bits. 17:48:45 Padding, that is. 17:49:01 Ah, well, that's good, then. 17:49:48 A lot of blab in the comments about how zomg-amazing the drums are but, uh, I have a feeling they're full of shit. 17:49:56 I'm not sure if I have a 24-bit soundcard. How could I check? 17:51:22 Does anyone still use cdparanoia these days, by the way? I like that little program. 17:51:26 Huh, it's still developed. 17:51:46 Sorry, "CDDA Paranoia". :P 17:52:00 [[Cdparanoia is a Compact Disc Digital Audio (CDDA) Digital Audio Extraction (DAE) tool, commonly known on the net as a 'ripper'.]] 17:52:19 alise, your laptop does gbit ethernet? 17:52:19 Err... well, you could try "aplay -l" and then looking in the internet for the chipset name it gives. I'm not sure if there's any tool that directly would tell you what it managed to open or not. 17:52:43 AnMaster: Probably. "How can I check?" 17:52:43 Does anyone still use cdparanoia these days, by the way? I like that little program. <-- erhm, me? 17:53:02 fizzie: Just "HDA Intel". 17:53:06 alise, lspci | grep Ethernet 17:53:11 HD, so presumably 24-bit. 17:53:11 it might have it in the name 17:53:15 HD Audio and what not. 17:53:17 04:00.0 Ethernet controller: Broadcom Corporation NetLink BCM5787M Gigabit Ethernet PCI Express (rev 02) 17:53:24 07:00.0 Ethernet controller: Atheros Communications Atheros AR8132 / L1c Gigabit Ethernet Adapter (rev c0) 17:53:25 Yes. 17:53:29 yeah 17:53:49 "Hardware based on Intel HD Audio specifications is capable of delivering 192-kHz 32-bit quality for two channels, and 96-kHz 32-bit for up to eight channels." Although of course that says nothing about my hardware. 17:53:56 "However, as of 2008[update], most audio hardware manufacturers do not implement the full high-end specification, especially 32-bit sampling resolution." 17:54:08 IN MY DAY WE HAD AC'97. 17:54:10 And we *liked* it. 17:54:19 You could try playing out your fancy 24-bit file, and then checking "pactl list"'s horribly long output as to what is the "Sample Specification" for the output sink it's going to. 17:54:26 alise, indeed. intel hda in my laptop too. Crappier sound than sb live 5.1 in desktop 17:54:33 especially for low notes 17:54:38 Well, I have crappy laptop speakers. So I don't care. 17:54:44 Which makes this 24-bit thing doubly pointless, but, uh. 17:54:44 and then I mean <70 Hz 17:54:47 Actually the speakers aren't crappy. 17:54:53 They're very good for laptop speakers; very good. 17:55:02 (Of course this assumes pulse would properly grok that the hardware supports 24-bit audio and not down-convert it.) 17:55:04 oh the speakers, they are crappy in my laptop. I compared with moving headphones 17:55:08 Not so good on the bass, yes... but still very good on the bass, compared to the tinny crap you get. 17:55:11 between laptop and desktop 17:55:19 Yeah, they're crappy, but all laptop speakers are. I'm relatively happy with these ones. 17:55:21 A bit too quiet though. 17:55:38 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:55:54 Anyone remember when Plextor was THE drive to get for audio extraction? 17:56:01 Well, *my* laptop has a potentiometer-based hardware volume control knob, which makes a delightful low-fi noise when you twiddle it. 17:56:09 They just rebrand other people's drives now. :( 17:56:19 fizzie, haha 17:56:22 man, I look so epically bad 17:56:37 AnMaster: (It's that pentium-100-or-so I don't really use.) 17:56:41 I look so epically bad 17:56:55 oops, sorry for the double message 17:57:14 coppro: pics or it didn't happen 17:57:21 alise: no thx 17:57:24 although i guess there is no "event" to "happen" 17:57:28 ah 17:57:29 unless we're talking in the sense of "time still existing" 17:57:34 suffice to say I'm dressed in a suit, which looks good 17:57:44 and I have a pink tie that I can't get to look quite right 17:57:44 alise: This is a bit late, but yes, I do use cdparanoia, for some small values of "use". (We don't really have that many audio CDs.) 17:58:09 The only reason to buy audio CDs is to get a good rip. 17:58:16 coppro: It's pink. 'Nuff said. 17:58:23 alise: precisely 17:58:35 Maybe you could dip it in ink? 17:58:49 What's that? Dip the pink 17:58:50 Tie in ink? 17:58:56 Wouldn't it sink? 17:59:20 it's supposed to be pink 17:59:20 alise: That's my particular kink. 17:59:29 I have a perfectly serviceable blue tie here too 17:59:34 but that just wouldn't be the same 17:59:57 Okay, how do I strip images from a FLAC file? 18:00:00 alise, this bug however causes mayhem for me currently: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/524281 18:00:09 fizzie: That's your kink? Well I do fink 18:00:10 s/however// 18:00:16 That's more than a little rinky-dink-dink. 18:01:35 Maybe I'll just compile Amarok 1. 18:01:42 It has the feature of not sucking. 18:02:32 Hmm, wait. There is also DeaDBeeF and Aqualung to consider... 18:02:55 Or I could run Foobar in wine. :) 18:03:17 AnMaster: Incidentally, the micro-HDMI connector is about the same size as micro-USB (2.8 x 6.4 mm, actually even a bit smaller), but it still has the full 19 pins of a regular HDMI connector. That's some seriously tiny pins. 18:03:49 heh 18:03:59 fizzie, what is wrong with the normal size? 18:04:00 Actually, Foobar in Wine isn't such a bad idea. 18:04:16 I mean, putting a db on a phone seems about useless 18:04:23 and on laptop standard size fits neatly 18:04:24 a db? 18:04:42 err, dp* 18:04:48 as in displayport 18:04:54 ... But if I'm using Foobar in Wine, why not just use DeaDBeeF? 18:04:57 well same goes for hdmi 18:05:02 fits neatly on a laptop too 18:05:03 AnMaster: It's very much not useless: you can watch your favourite movies on-the-go on the hotel TV. (Okay, so you'd probably also have that laptop, but still. And I've been traveling around with just the N900 lately.) 18:05:18 I hate hotels. 18:05:27 fizzie, ah I'm not the target audience I see 18:05:59 Yeah, AnMaster doesn't watch entertainment. 18:06:30 Q: How many Prolog programmers does it take to change light bulb? 18:06:31 A: Yes. 18:06:31 Q: How many Mercury programmers does it take to change light bulb? 18:06:31 A: Four. One to change the light bulb and three to distract the nurses. 18:06:38 I watch on youtube sometimes. I find the stuff on TV pretty much shit 18:06:54 I hate how they have a nice TV (with reasonable speakers) I could hook up the phone into in a hotel room, and then they completely screw any possibility of that by (a) not having any control buttons on the TV set, and (b) by providing only a "for dummies" variant of the TV remote, which doesn't make it possible to select any of the (four or so) external inputs of the TV. 18:06:54 too many bad american sitcoms 18:07:30 fizzie, your phone has hdmi? 18:07:52 No, but there's a (blurry) composite-video/RCA-audio thing. 18:08:00 fizzie: Carry around a universal remote. :P 18:09:06 WINE is so ugly. 18:09:16 alise: The phone is a universal remote (it has a IR diode), but those TV models are always some sort of weird "business purposes only" models, and I can never find any lirc remote-protocol-files for them. (Of course a real universal remote would probably have some working codes; I don't usually have enough patience to start downloading files for non-matching models.) 18:10:06 Also I hear real universal remotes have nifty "point it at the TV, then press a button when something happens" auto-detection thingies. 18:10:32 I bought one that required you to hold down a button for like a minute then press something. 18:10:36 It was a fucking bitch-ass shitter. 18:10:37 :| 18:11:58 What the what? I wasn't looking, and someone has added to this N900 QtIrreco tool a "download a remote from DB" choice. 18:12:37 Okay, the "DB" it uses seems to be pretty tiny. Phew. I was afraid something was going to non-suck. 18:13:18 There's surprisingly many air-conditioning systems listed; I didn't even know those have remote control in general. 18:14:46 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:15:29 -!- Fallensn0w has quit (Quit: g2g... follow me @fallensn0w at twitter). 18:15:36 O! Now I have corrected all problems with Icoruma->TeX program, except for overfull hboxes in tables. 18:15:37 -!- nooga has joined. 18:18:37 alise: Here's one way you could try for 24-bit sound: (with the volume way down) "aplay -L", then "aplay -D xxx -f S24_LE any.random.file", where xxx is a name from -L's list -- it'll try to play the file as raw audio data, and (at least here) say "Sample format non available; Available formats: [list]". (I'm just not completely sure I trust it, since it says that my hardware will play S16_LE and S32_LE, which sounds suspicious.) 18:19:36 My idea might be to make it calculate the minimum width of a paragraph box for only one word in a line, and the minimum width of all the words are on one line, and then insert a glue that stretches between those two widths? 18:19:41 Will this work? 18:20:45 Perhaps I will have to make it calculate the entire table before placing it on the page, similar to how I have it calculate the entire document before it ships it out 18:23:53 zzo38: You know, none of us have any idea what you're trying to do unless you tell us ... 18:24:20 alise: I thought I did tell you ... 18:24:28 Oh, you did. 18:24:31 What part of this do you not understand? 18:24:34 It got lost in fizzie's messages. Sorry. 18:25:01 fizzie only sent one message in between! 18:25:30 i already know my idea is awesome and works so i don't really care about you ppl's opinion 18:26:19 Ladies and Gentlemen, 18:26:21 I present to you 18:26:25 The world Linux UI design 18:26:25 EVER 18:26:27 http://imgur.com/Ru2kI.png 18:26:30 AnMaster: fizzie: 18:26:35 world ever, totally 18:26:35 Well, the UI is okay, with a different theme. 18:26:37 But the VISUALS. 18:26:53 anyone here an expert in 2-structures 18:26:58 (on) 18:27:11 What does "world Linux UI design" mean? 18:27:31 s/// 18:27:38 worst UI 18:27:40 not world, oops 18:28:03 s//l/ s//s/ 18:28:15 oh 18:28:17 t != d 18:28:22 so probably not a typo 18:28:30 not a finger typo that is 18:28:45 Whether it is the worst or not I don't know, but what I do know is I would make the UI entirely differently than that 18:28:48 i guess you don't have those anyway being a supertyper 18:29:03 As well as the feature set 18:31:53 oklopol: I do make tons of typos. 18:31:59 I just correct them in less than a second. 18:32:11 okay 18:32:14 I do have lots of thinkos, however, as I type thoughts as they are formed. I imagine most people type /after/ thinking ... 18:32:21 they say that's bad 18:32:44 i usually think while typing too, but i both type and think rather slow so 18:32:53 ...so what? 18:32:54 no idea 18:33:45 alise: most people think after typing :D 18:33:54 ha 18:34:44 I type fast, and often I do correct them in less than a second 18:35:11 But I type much faster when copying from something I have previously written on paper than when I am writing something new 18:35:47 Because when I write something new, I have to think of how I should write it down to make it meaningful and stuff like that 18:40:00 I write new thoughts quicker than copying. 18:41:15 fizzie: I'm playing the file; what command should I do, did you say? 18:43:16 But I am different because when I have new thoughts I have to think of how to write it. Writing new thoughts is not that much slower for me, though, than copying from a paper 18:43:22 But it is slightly slower 18:52:12 These speakers could do with more volume. 18:52:16 Maybe I'll just compress everything :P 18:53:29 Here's something that's Very Hard To Rip: Hidden tracks in the pregap of track 1 -- can be listened to by rewinding to "track 0" on most CD players. 18:53:35 But many, many CD-ROM drives simply cannot do it. 18:54:25 alise: Come to think of it, you could just use "mplayer -v" and check the messages. On my system, "mplayer -ao alsa -format s24le -v blah" says "[AO_ALSA] Format s24le is not supported by hardware, trying default" and builds a filter chain; s16le and s32le come out of the hardware. (I guess it's possible it fakes the 32-bit at some layer, but I don't think it should if you use a directly-hardwarey ALSA device.) 18:54:57 Ah well, it sounds alright; I wouldn't be able to tell on these speakers, anyway. 18:55:15 If I had a proper chair and some good speakers plugged in, I would be content. Yes, with the 13" screen; I've no problems with it. 18:55:31 In fact with excessive screen space I always get a little scared, what can I do with all this space that will do it justice and such. :P 18:55:31 Oh, right, the earlier command: pactl list | grep 'Sample Specification' 18:55:49 Just a bunch of lines with "16" in them. 18:55:49 If there's something more-than-16-bits going on there, it's probably playing with many bits. 18:55:50 Oh Well. 18:56:06 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_albums_with_tracks_hidden_in_the_pregap 18:56:15 List of albums that are almost impossible to rip properly 18:56:53 Someone hilighted me 18:57:09 about sanity. 18:58:55 Indeed 19:03:30 Pet peeve: The spectrum analyser bars you see in music players. 19:03:35 They're useless and distracting. 19:05:09 Pet peeve: Music players with GUIs. 19:05:13 They're useless and distracting. 19:05:28 Surely those bars are there for fun? So surely they're disableable? 19:05:47 Yeah, one does not imply the other :/ 19:06:04 Fun, pah. 19:06:12 Stick to super cow powers. 19:06:23 Gregor: They're not useless if you're trying to navigate a ton of music... 19:06:27 ...so I suppose you use mpdc? 19:06:36 Or, lemme guess 19:06:41 You manually play the audio files 19:06:55 mplayer + bash = my music player 19:07:15 I navigate my music library with cd. 19:07:15 Thought so. I'd elaborate why th-- but that would be elaborating, finishing that sentence; so I won't. 19:07:16 alise: Apparently (source: interwebs) even if your hardware supports 24-bit audio, if you're playing through pulse, the PulseAudio daemon needs to be configured (via /etc/pulse/daemon.conf) to have a default sample format of something higher than s16le, otherwise everything will be clipped to that. (And after that everything you play will be internally converted to that many bits, adding to the resource drain. The same thing if you bump things up to 96 kHz or s 19:07:17 omething.) 19:07:35 fizzie: Playing through ALSA (though Pulse is running.) 19:07:42 Or does Pulse override ALSA? 19:08:04 The default configuration makes the default alsa device direct things to PulseAudio, I think. 19:08:29 Feh. Oh well. 19:08:47 But yes, with laptop speakers you probably shouldn't care. 19:08:52 I can't even understand why people like PulseAudio. 19:08:55 It has absolutely no ... features. 19:09:17 "PulseAudio is an integral part of all relevant modern Linux distributions" 19:09:23 By defining "relevant" to mean "ones that use PulseAudio". 19:09:36 alise: So that you can get that "ding" sound when you do something wrong on top of the music you have playing on the background. (Discounting for a moment ALSA's own software mixer.) 19:09:53 Discounting the thing that already does a thing, it can do a thing! 19:09:53 Oh, and the "bep-drweeedle" sounds when someone sends you an IM message. 19:10:08 Another pet peeve: UI sounds. 19:10:11 "bep-drweeedle" 19:10:12 Wow :P 19:10:16 Okay, the IM message notifications are quite useful, but. 19:10:24 It doesn't really sound like "bep-drweeedle". :P 19:10:34 More like "BAdum!". 19:10:56 When first adopted by the distributions PulseAudio developer Lennart Poettering described it as "the software that currently breaks your audio".[6] Poettering later claimed that "Ubuntu didn't exactly do a stellar job. They didn't do their homework" in adopting PulseAudio[7] for Ubuntu "Hardy Heron" (8.04), a problem which was then improved with subsequent Ubuntu releases.[8] However, Poettering is still not happy with Ubuntu's integration of PulseAudio.[9] 19:11:03 Wow, even the PulseAudio dev thinks Ubuntu's is especially crap. 19:11:46 Gregor: A friend of mine once did a Doom .wad file; for the door-opening and door-closing sounds, he substituted himself saying, in a laconic tone of voice, respectively, "clink-schloink" and "schlink-cloink". For some reason it was hilarious. 19:12:19 XD 19:12:42 Used to like an online station-like thingy called PulsRadio... 19:13:10 But the VISUALS. <-- visuals? 19:13:11 Puls'Radio - Non-Stop Dance And Trance Music - Web Radio Trance ... 19:13:11 - [ Translate this page ] 19:13:11 Webradio orientée musique électronique dancefloor. 19:13:11 www.pulsradio.com/ - Cached - Similar 19:13:17 AnMaster: see my link 19:13:20 AnMaster: the visual appearance of it 19:13:27 rather than the other, important part of the UI (functionality, which is fine) 19:13:32 but that default theme! 19:13:43 alise, rewrite it in motif. Then there will be one worse 19:14:01 AnMaster: Did you CLICK the link? 19:14:11 http://i.imgur.com/Ru2kI.png ? yes 19:14:22 Motif looks way better than that. 19:14:37 alise, what about xine? 19:14:39 Oh, and for music player comparisons; my current one is xmms2 and the "nyxmms2" CLI. The project is sadly a bit dead. 19:14:50 AnMaster: Bad, but... not /that/ bad. 19:14:58 nyxmms2 or xmms2? 19:15:02 xmms2 isn't really that dead afaik. 19:15:13 Anyway, mpd and xmms2 have the flaws that I didn't write them. 19:15:17 Well, not *dead*, just sort of.. slowey. 19:15:21 alise, what is so bad about this one? The bg pattern is quite awful yes 19:15:33 and colour choices could be better 19:15:35 AnMaster: The colours, and the background. 19:15:37 but worst? no? 19:15:54 Well, no, but it did make me puke when I clicked on "default" theme after it started in "plain" theme (which is very very reasonable, GTK style). 19:15:56 alise, what are the three sliders 19:16:00 one is probably position 19:16:04 and one could be volume 19:16:08 the third one? 19:16:08 Volume, balance (I think), position. 19:16:11 Balance because it's short and in the middle. 19:16:14 And next to volume. 19:16:24 I dislike UIs where you have to hover the mouse to figure out what stuff is 19:16:24 As in L/R channel balance. 19:16:33 XMMS2's "AAC/MP4 (via faad2) and ASF/WMA (via ffmpeg) and libao output and whatnot" plugin developer's a friend, so I felt sort of obligated to try it out; it's passable. 19:16:36 at least when there is no reason for it 19:17:00 Can ffmpeg actually poop crap out to an audio device? To use the correct terminology. 19:17:02 I guess not. 19:17:11 Hmm, why didn't I know of libao before? 19:17:44 libao? some audio library, iirc... But then there are more audio libraries than there are GUI toolkits these days 19:17:56 Xiph.org's. 19:17:59 So you Know It's Good. 19:18:02 It's what mplayer uses by default too. 19:18:11 I think. 19:18:13 theora sucks, and aren't they behind it? 19:18:21 vorbis is good yes 19:18:21 Theora sucks, /but/ it was a Good Try. 19:18:25 Theora is /old/. 19:18:28 ah 19:18:32 older than vorbis? 19:18:32 When it was released it was /unbearable/. 19:18:36 Then they made it acceptable. 19:18:39 AnMaster: No. But old. 19:18:44 And it was dormant when they got ahold of it. 19:18:49 alise, how old is old? 19:18:53 Then they made it... you know, bad, but not terrible. 19:18:54 * Sgeo wonders what alise thinks of VP8 19:18:57 AnMaster: I don't know. 2003 or something. 19:19:04 "libao" as in "audio output"; it's meant for cross-platform audio output; writes to files (in various formats) as well as platform-dependant audio-hardware things. 19:19:14 heh. 19:19:14 Sgeo: It's still not as good as H.264, and never will be. 19:19:18 alise, 2003 isn't old 19:19:29 AnMaster: It is when the codec it's based on 19:19:30 is 19:19:42 hmm how old is VP3 19:19:47 sigh, why do I feel so old suddenly -_- 19:19:47 VP3.1 was introduced in May 2000 followed three months later by the VP3.2 release,[11][12] which is the basis for Theora. 19:19:54 It's old for /this stuff/. 19:20:04 Dammit, I don't have a warped perception of time, I just have a context-dependent one. 19:20:07 In 2000, video encoding SUCKED. 19:20:14 well yes 19:20:22 alise, remember .au? 19:20:24 for audio 19:20:27 And it's hard to make a format from then not suck. 19:20:34 AnMaster: Don't remember, but have seen since many times. 19:20:37 (Since it's been obsolete.) 19:20:59 ah, you are too young yeah 19:21:11 alise, wait, what about qt in around 2001 or so? 19:21:15 alise: Hey, now... already in 1998 we had "DivX ;-) 3.11 Alpha". 19:21:21 QuickTime I dealt with when it was horrible, horrible on Windows. 19:21:23 (Still is, but, you know.) 19:21:28 fizzie, with a smilie? 19:21:31 AnMaster: Yes. 19:21:35 AnMaster: The smilie is part of the name, yes. 19:21:38 smiley* 19:21:51 DivX ;-) (not DivX) 3.11 Alpha and later 3.xx versions refers to a hacked version of the Microsoft MPEG-4 Version 3 video codec (not to be mistaken with MPEG-4 Part 3) from Windows Media Tools 4 codecs.[4][5] The video codec, which was actually not MPEG-4 compliant, was extracted around 1998 by French hacker Jerome Rota (also known as Gej) at Montpellier. The Microsoft codec originally required that the compressed output be put in an ASF file. It was alter 19:21:51 ed to allow other containers such as Audio Video Interleave (AVI).[6] Rota hacked the Microsoft codec because newer versions of the Windows Media Player wouldn't play his video portfolio and résumé that were encoded with it. Instead of re-encoding his portfolio, Rota and German hacker Max Morice decided to reverse engineer the codec, which "took about a week".[7] 19:22:02 alise, I never dealt with qt on windows back then 19:22:08 alise, did deal with it on mac 19:22:16 The "DivX" brand is distinct from "DIVX" (Digital Video Express), an unrelated attempt by the now defunct U.S. retailer Circuit City to develop a video rental system requiring special discs and players.[1] The winking emoticon in the early "DivX ;-)" codec name was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the failed DIVX system. The DivX company then adopted the name of the popular DivX ;-) codec (which was not created by them), dropped the smiley and released DivX 19:22:16 4.0, which was actually the first DivX version. (Note that DivX ;-) and DivX are separate products and are created by different people; the former is not an older version of the latter). The DivX name is its trademark.[2][3] It is pronounced DIV-ex. 19:22:22 alise, I mean, myst for mac uses qt for the embedded animations and such 19:22:27 fizzie: So note that DivX as you know it is NOT affiliated with, or based on, the old DivX ;-). 19:22:30 They just stole the name. 19:22:34 and that is even older 19:22:56 I never had the attention span for Myst. Gimme Monkey Island. 19:23:06 So, ffmpeg + libao seems to be a way better solution than Xine and GStreamer. 19:23:09 Why doesn't everything use it? 19:23:37 alise, I never played monkey island 19:23:42 I wonder if I am not getting old myself; my Emacs font is really big. 19:23:44 alise: Not based on, but I remember videos from the time of the smiley. They're all "sort-of MPEG-4 except not" anyway. 19:23:49 oh and does it surprise you that I had the required attention span? 19:23:54 AnMaster: Yes. 19:23:58 alise, to solve it without walkthroughs 19:24:00 Since you've said you have severe ADHD. 19:24:05 alise, no I didn't. 19:24:11 I thought you did. 19:24:14 I said I had *light* ADHD 19:24:28 Oh. I thought you said bad ADHD becoming light ADHD w/ Ritalin. 19:24:50 no, also I said it in /msg under condition of keeping it there iirc. 19:24:56 sigh 19:25:05 Sorry; I didn't remember. 19:25:13 Telling me things is usually a bad idea. :P 19:25:19 right... 19:25:36 anyway. myst was fun 19:25:39 Myst was nice; I got it as a birthday present when the Windows port was new, or at least new-ish. 19:25:49 looked a lot better back then than it does when replayed today 19:26:10 I mean, you didn't noticed the dithering very much on an old performa (built in) CRT 19:26:22 it was how everything looked on displays after all 19:26:36 and CRT doesn't give a crystal clear picture like TFTs do 19:26:46 CRTs don't* 19:27:46 I think I saw "Myst: Masterpiece Edition" somewhere in a bin; I'm a bit sorry that I didn't get it, but since I already had the original... (it has the graphics re-rendered as 24-bit bitmaps, as opposed to the 256-color palette+dithering ones; and also some works-better-in-newer-Windowses stuff). 19:28:20 fizzie, ah, I run it in sheepshaver nowdays 19:28:28 Wait, what? I actually *did* buy it? At least there's one of those tall-DVD-case-thingies in the shelf with "MYST: masterpiece edition" printed on it. 19:28:36 haha 19:28:39 fizzie, never played it? 19:28:42 BELIAL IS BACK 19:28:50 Still needs a better name. 19:28:56 "Every graphic element has been upgraded to brilliant 24-bit color". 19:29:14 AnMaster: I... don't remember. I remember re-playing Myst not long ago, but I thought it was the old one, not this new one. 19:29:19 alise, um. this sounds familiar. but no I can't locate wtf belial is 19:29:38 AnMaster: my vapourware music daemon 19:29:42 fizzie, time to replay yet again? 19:29:47 Vapourware no more! Not another day I have to sleep at the unit: so I have time! 19:29:50 What I should do is combine features of ImageMagick and SoX in one program called "Image Exchange" and -density sets the sample rate. And to play a audio file backwards and with echo you can type in: imx file1.wav -flop +echo play: 19:29:52 Also: "Larger and higher quality movies and animations"; after all, the book-entering animation clips in original Myst were something like 160x120 pixels. 19:30:03 fizzie, oh btw for that image, if you can't correct white balance, it might be worth a try to just do vignetting 19:30:40 fizzie, and perhaps try without exposure correction. It could be what is messing up the sky. Well I don't know how it is messed up so hard to tell.. 19:30:54 And: "Proprietary DigitalGuide™ help system assists players of every skill level" 19:31:05 fizzie, whaat? 19:31:33 There's some sort of built-in walkthrough, I guess. 19:31:34 if you need a walkthrough... use google to find something at ign or whatever 19:31:45 built in ones is just... cheating 19:32:01 XDX 19:32:02 *XD 19:32:06 I remember UHS. Anyone remember UHS? 19:32:09 no? 19:32:13 Universal Hint System. 19:32:17 what was that 19:32:18 alise: I wrote a perl script to convert UHS files to a XML format. 19:32:21 You'd ask it a question about a game by clicking on it, and it'd give you a vague hint. 19:32:24 Click again, more specific. 19:32:30 After -- I think on the fifth hint -- it told you outright. 19:32:42 The program plus a few hint files for games could fit on one floppy. 19:32:43 alise, was this in the game or a separate product? 19:32:47 Separate product. 19:32:50 ah 19:32:58 Seems it still exists. 19:33:00 http://www.uhs-hints.com/ 19:33:14 but vague hint for an entire game... that doesn't work for most games 19:33:18 No. 19:33:21 For one specific puzzle. 19:33:23 Or whatever. 19:33:25 hm 19:33:36 Inside the game it would have a bunch of little problems you might encounter, then you could just click to get more and more specific hints. 19:33:45 Probably the most... tasteful hint system existing, with the discretion and all. 19:34:08 Hm, there's uhs2xml.pl, xml2html.pl and showxml.pl here. 19:34:08 I can think of lots of games where this fails. works mostly for RPGs, adventure and similar. 19:34:19 I guess that is where it is most needed 19:34:50 In addition to audio, imx also needs a block-JPEG to perform lossless transformations on JPEG file by keeping the blocks compressed 19:35:10 alise: I have also written a hint system called IFHINT 19:35:30 AnMaster: Where would it fail? 19:35:31 (I do not know how it compares with UHS) 19:35:38 alise, it doesn't work well for very open ended adventure or rpg games where you have absolutely no clue what to do next. Granted, they are much more rare than mostly railroaded games, but still. they exist. 19:35:55 alise, well open ended strategy games 19:36:00 pretty useless for that I guess 19:36:06 Yeah. 19:36:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:36:17 alise, it doesn't work well for very open ended adventure or rpg games where you have absolutely no clue what to do next. Granted, they are much more rare than mostly railroaded games, but still. they exist. 19:36:19 alise, this long. 19:36:32 "I have completed the Seven Trials, killed Morgggot, and retrieved the chicken. What do I do now?" 19:36:33 Writing UHS files needs some care in the question-titling business; if they're too explicit, you can deduce too much; if too vague, they'll be difficult to find. 19:36:38 fizzie: Yes. 19:36:45 Phantom_Hoover: Yay! 19:36:53 Now, what were the thoughts? 19:37:03 See /msg. 19:37:18 alise, I was thinking about the kind of game where you could side with either side of a conflict for completely different gameplay, and possibly change in the middle 19:37:42 or even do the "your own side, fight both" style. 19:37:53 AnMaster: There'd be a (One Side) and (Other Side) superheading, then. 19:38:01 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 19:38:11 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:38:38 Right; there's an arbitrary tree of questions/subquestions, and then each hint has an arbitrary list of answers, revealed one by one. 19:39:09 tree? needs to be arbitrary graph for the kind of game I'm thinking about 19:39:34 No, it doesn't: you don't have to traverse the tree in order. 19:39:44 It just needs to be browseable so that you find what you're looking for. 19:39:44 hm 19:40:03 There's a human reading it, after all. 19:40:19 Conifer? I 'ardly knew 'er! 19:40:58 the kind of game I'm thinking about is _exceedingly_ rare, but exists. Most examples that come to mind are user created modules or such to open ended RPG game engines. Major companies seems to hate truly open ended RPGs. Probably because it is a lot more work. 19:41:43 That being said, the format probably does work best for regular linear-ish (or at least fixed-content do-it-in-the-order-you-like) adventure games. 19:41:44 And because players end up feeling lost. 19:42:37 Arguably, almost all MMORPGs fit that, they're just also "MMO" 19:43:04 alise, I actually love the freedom of this kind of open ended gameplay. Especially if the game has D&D style alignment. If you play chaotic neutral in a rail roaded RPG you never really get the chance for being truly CN. 19:43:29 less of a problem for lawful of course. 19:43:37 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 19:43:37 AnMaster: Incidentally, Myst's DS port added a whole new age (Rime) to the plot. (I don't remember how it tied in to the Myst plot; ISTR it wasn't just "one more red/blue page to find" thing.) 19:44:03 hm 19:44:07 DS port 19:44:12 interesting 19:44:14 Nintendo DS, that is. 19:44:21 yes I gathered that 19:44:39 In other ways it was a pretty sucky port; bugs and such. 19:44:52 But you could write (with the stylus) in a notebook, that was a nice touch. 19:44:52 ah 19:44:59 (Unfortunately the notebook only had one page.) 19:45:04 gah 19:45:20 It's a pretty resource-limited system, and bitmaps take a lot of space. 19:45:53 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:45:55 From a review: "The Nintendo DS has the game at its worst: a poorly compressed, sometimes glitchy, game that relies entirely on visuals that are too hard to see for progression." 19:46:03 (The reviewer is a Myst-hater, though.) 19:46:22 how can anyone hate myst!? 19:46:41 Oh, lots of people hate it. 19:46:54 on what grounds? 19:47:05 It's very, very dull. 19:47:09 eh 19:47:10 And the puzzles are on the ... inexplicable side. 19:47:12 I disagree 19:47:13 When there /are/ any puzzles. 19:47:24 there are puzzles everywhere in myst! 19:47:30 When you're not walking. 19:47:31 Endlessly. 19:47:47 People do find it boring, yes. 19:48:33 well, I hate the FPS genre due to being too fast... so I guess there is a pattern here... 19:48:49 s/due to/for/ 19:48:56 And there's the "zip mode" (at least in the Windows port) to ease a bit on the clickery needed in walking, if you're already been somewhere and want to revisit it. 19:49:08 fizzie, that's in the mac one too 19:49:16 and yes that is quite nice 19:50:22 myst on mac at least was developed in hypercard I think... 19:50:30 Yes. 19:50:39 not sure if that applies to the windows port 19:52:29 One problem in the DS port is that since there's no cursor, poking at random points might activate interactive things, but they might as well cause you to move somewhere; you'd know from the cursor shape. 19:53:03 indeed 19:53:04 And since they shrunk everything to the DS's 256x192 pixel resolution, some of the things you need to poke with a stick are pretty tiny. 19:53:25 fizzie, doesn't it have two screens? 19:53:30 or is that some other one? 19:53:38 Only one of them is a touchscreen. 19:53:42 hm 19:54:03 It's not a touchscreen, really. 19:54:06 More a stylusscreen. 19:54:13 Okay, but pokeable anyway. 19:54:14 *styluscreen 19:54:15 Often there's main graphics in the upper screen, and then some sort of UI in the bottom. 19:54:27 pokeable screen, awesome name 19:54:42 "Pokescreen." Or is that too pokemon? (Or too porn?) 19:54:54 I don't get how it could be porn... 19:54:56 but meh 19:55:06 but yeah too pokemon definitely 19:55:12 It's a Finnish colloquialism for porn; it probably doesn't translate. 19:55:26 What, pokes? Or pokescreen? 19:55:32 or pokemon? 19:55:43 Just "poke". Not too common, but recognizable anyway. 19:57:04 The FF3 port, IIRC, puts the 3D view on top, and a map on the styluscreen; you can poke at the corners of the screen to move in that direction. The equip/item/etc. menu opens over the map, as do the battle menus (and other battle stats). 19:57:41 FF3 being? 19:57:46 Final Fantasy 3. 19:57:49 ah 19:58:22 Of Myst DS: "Even if you wanted to simply enjoy Myst's scenery, the grainy compression has shattered the beauty of the artistic design. What you see is a sad, freckled shell of the original game. The audio from the original game fares only slightly better: Hissing, scratching, and popping have turned CD-quality sound effects, dialogue, and gorgeous, ethereal music into a ham-radio affair." 19:58:45 ouch 19:59:04 The DS' audio is awful. 19:59:10 *DS's 19:59:32 myst is best enjoyed with a peforma cd drive for the seeking noise. It had a very peculiar seeking noise. Not heard on modern computers 19:59:44 but I very strongly associates myst with that sound 19:59:45 Here's a screenshot: http://image.gamespotcdn.net/gamespot/images/2008/133/939943_20080513_screen003.jpg -- that's the full-size image, 256 pixels wide; just zoom it in the browser to approximate how you'd probably hold the DS closer than the monitor. 20:00:07 fizzie, a map? that's ruining point of the whole thing 20:00:17 and those icons? wtf 20:00:22 It's a static map, though; it doesn't tell you where you are. 20:00:27 still 20:00:33 AnMaster: Inventory, presumably. Maybe? 20:00:44 You can only carry one thing in Myst. :p 20:00:54 fizzie, on that specific world part of the challenge was figuring out the other islands played any sort of part in the story 20:00:54 The third one is the scribble-notepad. 20:01:14 AnMaster: Nhm, well, I guess. They were pretty visible from the screens, though. 20:01:26 AnMaster: And the map doesn't show how you've rotated the bridge, so it doesn't help in that. 20:01:36 yes, but there is scenery which is just scenery in many places 20:01:42 fizzie, hah 20:01:56 don't spoil it for alise ! 20:02:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Myst_opening.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Realmyst_screen.png 20:02:39 ugh at the latter. Sure some stuff is better 20:02:54 but why couldn't they keep the parts of better detail in the original 20:02:56 The first one is a zoom thing, with which you can zoom what's shown in the bottom screen for easier viewing, but it just stretches the bitmap, there's no higher-resolution version stored anywhere. 20:02:59 So does Myst run in ScummVM or anything? 20:03:15 look at the part of the boat, some rigging or something sticking out 20:03:22 It runs in Wine. 20:03:24 where the bumps are real bumps in the original 20:03:25 Julian Assange should get out of the country, quickly. 20:03:28 fizzie: Blergh. 20:03:29 and in the new one... just texture 20:03:38 alise, which country and why? 20:03:41 myst was probably made in shockwave or something like that 20:03:49 olsner, hypercard on mac 20:03:52 well that was the original 20:03:59 no idea what they used for PC 20:04:30 AnMaster: The Pentagon are out to get him. 20:04:41 isn't he in hiding already? 20:04:46 but yeah, should go to iceland 20:05:16 http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leakhttp://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leak -- ok, ok, don't trust everything you read online, but i don't think The Daily Beast is known to be terribly inaccurate 20:05:30 alise, 404 20:05:39 Uh, repeated link. 20:05:39 http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-10/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-hunted-by-pentagon-over-massive-leak 20:05:48 alise, ah, I thought it was a bit on the long side 20:05:48 AnMaster: RealMyst had to run in real-time on whatever hardware there was in 2000, so they probably didn't have the polygons to spare to get all the details from the originals -- which were offline-rendered -- in. 20:05:49 [[“We’d like to know where he is; we’d like his cooperation in this,” one U.S. official said of Assange.]] 20:05:58 Of course when he gets to court he's fucked. No chance of a nice ruling there. 20:06:07 fizzie, ah true 20:06:53 I don't think killing off Assange would stop any such leak. They most likely have the files spread and back up people to publish it 20:07:14 AnMaster: "While the new interactivity of the game was praised, realMyst ran extremely slowly on most computers of the time." Heh, maybe they also didn't try very hard. 20:07:28 realMyst: Interactive 3D Edition was a remake of Myst released in November 2000 for Windows PCs, and in January 2002 for Mac. Unlike Myst and the Masterpiece Edition, realMyst featured free-roaming, real-time 3D graphics instead of pre-rendered stills.[50] Weather effects like thunderstorms, sunsets, and sunrises were added to the Ages, and minor additions were made to keep the game in sync with the story of the Myst novels and sequels. The game also adde 20:07:28 d a new Age called Rime, which is featured in an extended ending. 20:07:33 So realMyst added Rime, not the DS version. 20:07:43 fizzie, hm. That grassy area on the side is nicer in realmyst IMO 20:07:45 but that is all 20:07:46 Yes, it's the same Rime. 20:08:14 I'd like to know how the iPhone version is. 20:08:32 * alise downloads insurance.aes256, 1.4 GB. 20:08:35 "Williams, Bryn (2009-05-04). "Massive Myst Clogs Up iPhone". GameSpy. http://www.gamespy.com/articles/979/979141p1.html. Retrieved 2009-05-04." Sounds good. 20:09:05 A 700+-megabyte download is apparently considered "big" for an iPhone app. 20:09:12 fizzie: Of course it is XD 20:09:17 You download that over WiFi. 20:09:33 You also need 1.5 gigs free during the installation; a copy is involved. Heh-eh. 20:09:53 alise, "Assange appeared via Skype from Australia instead, saying lawyers recommended he not return to the United States.", if that is true I doubt he is in US 20:10:21 There's "quick access to hint guide" in the iMyst (no, they're not calling it that) too. 20:11:16 alise, also that link is old 20:11:25 (And it seems they've shrunk it down, the current iOS 4 compatible version is only 533 MB. I might even invest the $5 if I had an iDevice.) 20:11:27 from what I can tell it is before the afghan war diary stuff 20:12:20 AnMaster: Well, it can only inflame. 20:12:39 Anyway, I presume this insurance file is all the /rest/ of the documents the White House have begged him not to release about this stuff, encrypted with AES-256. 20:12:53 Presumably, he will post the key if he feels threatened by the govt. 20:13:01 Length: 309809152 (295M) [application/octet-stream] 20:13:05 You said >1GB, Wikileaks. 20:13:07 You LIED. 20:13:46 alise, what? where? 20:14:10 http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Afghan_War_Diary,_2004-2010 20:14:15 The silently added insurance.aes256. 20:14:21 hm 20:14:36 god, wikileaks is slow atm 20:15:14 The SHA-1 is wrong. 20:15:16 Why is it truncated. 20:15:18 *truncated... 20:15:32 how strange 20:15:41 Fucking wget. 20:15:43 Firefox is doing it alright. 20:15:55 um 20:16:27 alise, considering how slow the download page was to load, I very much suspect that overloaded server might be the cause. 20:17:36 DAMMIT 20:17:45 WHY DID I HAVE TO MAKE THIS SO CRASHPROOF 20:17:49 Sgeo, ??? 20:18:10 that deserves some explanation 20:18:13 I have the code that starts the thing in a try, some stuff in a catch, and the whole thing in a while(true) 20:18:18 I now want to kill it 20:18:25 So I could run it on a different host 20:18:29 kill -9 pid-goes-here 20:18:43 AnMaster, it's not running on a computer I have access to 20:18:50 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Memling_Vanity_and_Salvation.jpg (NSFW, WTF) 20:19:15 The self-restarts in a sense on exceptions aren't perfect, due to poor code design 20:19:16 alise, seen that before. Hisotorical context. 20:19:19 forgot details 20:19:24 check image page for "used in" 20:19:27 "This triptych contrasts earthly beauty and luxury with the prospect of death and hell." 20:19:29 that should help 20:19:30 It's still pretty WTF. 20:19:57 Meanwhile, someone has snipped out just the bit with nakedness: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Hans_Memling_Vanit%C3%A9_ca_1490.jpg XD 20:22:22 alise, google news search on wikileaks insurance aes256: "all 477 news articles »" 20:22:28 that's quite a bit of coverage 20:22:33 assuming all are related 20:22:36 probably not 20:22:40 mostly just wikileaks, I bet 20:22:58 probably 20:24:31 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why Wikileaks didn't manually look for informant's names and only release documents known for certain not to contain them? 20:25:47 Did they release any with informant's names? 20:26:06 alise, you know, no one could tell if it was just random data to scare with 20:26:10 that file I mean 20:26:36 alise, yes iirc it turned out they did so 20:42:23 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:43:35 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 20:49:50 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:50:33 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 20:58:22 AnMaster: what kernel do i select in ubuntu 7.04 install? 20:58:28 linux-generic froze the install last time i tried 20:58:32 do I choose the specific name? 20:58:37 sorry, *linux-kernel I think. maybe not 21:00:42 alise, hm... 21:00:46 alise, which file system? 21:01:00 ???? 21:01:01 alise, it froze for me for about 20 minutes with jfs and about 10 with ext3 21:01:04 What are commands in TeX to calculate the minimum width of a paragraph (with no hyphenation)? 21:01:10 AnMaster: O_O what?! 21:01:12 why would it freeze that much 21:01:18 alise, I have no idea 21:01:24 Any way to rectify it? 21:01:29 alise, logs showed the vm was trying to catch up time drift 21:01:41 Also, ext3 is what it does when you just let it go with the whole disk, right? 21:01:43 and failed 21:01:43 Yeah, it is. 21:01:46 AnMaster: Huh. So it eventually resolved? 21:01:59 alise, well with ext3 it did. It did take an awful lot of time though 21:02:04 with jfs I gave up after 20 minutes 21:02:27 alise, I used noatime mount option on ext3, no idea if that was signficiant or not 21:02:35 anyway linux-generic just maps to one of the other ones 21:02:38 last version or such 21:02:50 Do you know about commands in TeX? 21:03:30 zzo38, clarify that question please What exactly do you mean 21:03:52 or is "commands" some package? 21:04:00 AnMaster: pure TeX. 21:04:12 hm no idea. I use LaTeX 21:04:18 alise, I used noatime mount option on ext3, no idea if that was signficiant or not <-- is this likely to speed it up? 21:04:30 he has no idea 21:04:32 alise, no clue. 21:04:41 *clue 21:04:42 alise, it might 21:04:59 alise, I mean, theoretically it should perhaps, no need to update atime field 21:05:03 could hardly slow it down 21:05:09 unless there was some bug 21:05:12 Yeah, but I mean, the huge lag. 21:05:15 Could that be related? 21:05:21 I guess not. 21:05:26 AnMaster: I mean Plain TeX. I want to calculate the minimum possible width of a box that a paragraph will fit into with no hyphenation or overfull boxes. 21:05:29 Because it's time drift instead. 21:05:29 alise, and since iirc noatime is not default and you hit that lag too. That is assuming you did defaults 21:05:38 No? 21:05:47 And no overlapping text. 21:05:47 alise, I'm not sure if the time drift is actually causing the slow down or just side effect 21:06:15 alise, it might very well be caused by the VM hogging it's CPU to 100% in debconf during that time 21:06:21 alise, it turns out top installed before kernel 21:06:29 so I could chroot into the install and run top 21:06:31 :D 21:06:57 alise, just go to alt-f2, oh and it reports current status on alt-f4 or such 21:07:00 Oh, so it's responsive? 21:07:03 as in, apt-get output 21:07:05 Which kernel did you pick? 21:07:13 alise, default one 21:07:26 alise, but it doesn't matter really since they are just generic aliases of each other 21:07:28 Here is the command to use if you want to test if a GNU/Linux system is running too slow: time seq 1 1000000 21:07:35 alise, blame expert install for showing the option at all probably 21:07:42 zzo38: Why? 21:07:48 AnMaster: Yeah. 21:08:01 alise, need it for the shadow option however 21:08:01 zzo38: For one, that's IO-bound. Heavily. You want >/dev/null. 21:08:05 For two, there are many implementations of seq. 21:08:08 For three, why?! 21:08:12 alise, modifying that after the fact turned out to be quite a mess. 21:08:37 alise: That is meaning in case you want to count multiple things at once including I/O and things. 21:08:43 enough that I did a reinstall 21:09:08 AnMaster: Incidentally, using QEMU to emulate an x86-64 machine is a bitch. 21:09:19 oh? 21:09:24 AnMaster: This is because although I have a 64-bit processor, it does not support virtualisation, so VirtualBox can't do 64-bit on it. 21:09:25 Thus slowness. 21:09:30 Well, it isn't /that/ slow 21:09:32 *slow. 21:09:35 But still, you know, could be a bit faster. 21:09:42 My processor does that too... 21:09:57 alise, anyway, as far as I can tell it stalls (or seems to?) in generating the initrd or possibly depmod. This is based on output on alt-f4 21:10:30 alise, I don't know if you drink coffee, but this is the kind of place where guides would suggest you go make a cup of it to pass the time :P 21:10:40 Usually it suggests tea. 21:10:43 Well, in the good manuals. 21:10:52 The command "time seq 1 1000000" doesn't test everything and also won't do only one thing for testing, but it is good as a simple way to test multiple things at once 21:10:54 hm that "trope" of manuals seems mostly gone nowdays 21:11:07 alise, I can't remember it being tea in any case I read about 21:11:09 There doesn't seem to be a coffee machine in the kitchen and I'm not about to drink instant coffee, so I don't drink coffee much. That's probably a good thing. 21:11:18 alise, indeed 21:11:20 AnMaster: I've never seen coffee. Maybe I read better manuals than you. :P 21:11:28 I don't drink coffee 21:11:46 alise, or British manuals rather than American ones. That could be a significant factor 21:11:57 I don't use much British software, as far as I know. 21:12:12 Swedish ones would probably suggest coffee. It is by far more common than tea here 21:12:20 Or maybe localised manuals. Who knows. I don't think they'd localise that; only open-sourcey and other thrifty projects have it, and those don't tend to get localised across dialects of English. 21:12:25 Ah, well, yes, I'm talking English ere. 21:12:42 alise, well I'm not sure which language I read it in 21:12:48 probably both English and Swedish 21:13:15 human memory is not perfect 21:14:45 alise, wait, that 10 minutes was for virtualbox with hardware virt 21:14:56 qemu is in my experience slower... 21:15:10 how much varies 21:15:13 and that was with kvm 21:15:25 without kvm... you might have to wait a bit more than 10 minutes 21:15:33 alise, hopefully not though 21:16:00 Does KVM work if your processor doesn't do that virtualisin' thang? 21:16:05 alise, no 21:16:08 or 21:16:10 not afaik 21:16:11 Then no luckz. 21:16:23 alise, indeed. Also how fast cpu? 21:16:32 what was that 21:16:36 strange sound 21:16:53 1.33 GHz or something; ultra low voltage. But don't be fooled; it runs a ton of Firefox and other windows very snappily and quickly on bloated old Ubuntu. 21:16:56 like... lots of small muffled explosions after each other 21:17:00 So it's no slowpoke. It /is/ Core 2 Duo, after all. 21:17:15 like 5-10 / second, went on for maybe 4 or 5 seconds 21:17:16 wtf 21:17:19 from outside 21:17:24 o_O 21:17:34 alise, my cpu is Core 2 Duo @ 2.26 GHz btw 21:18:09 alise, looking at top and virtualbox's harddrive icon it seemed that whatever thing it stalled at was CPU bound, not IO bound 21:18:28 Oh well. I can wait for indefinite amounts of time as long as I know it's not frozen. 21:18:36 It froze at 8x% -- is this your experience too? 21:18:43 8x%? 21:18:51 it was when installing kernel I know 21:19:13 but yes it froze a short while at 8x% I think, and then the 10 minute freeze at 92% or such 21:19:19 the first one was like about a minute or so 21:19:22 Ah. It froze for a few minutes at 8x% for me. 21:19:25 Hmm. 21:19:27 Oh well. 21:19:37 alise, slower cpu, no hw virt. What can you expect? 21:19:40 How can you calculate the shortest width of hbox that a paragraph will fit into with no overfills, hyphenation, or overlapped text? 21:19:46 alise, don't you have one with hw virt? 21:20:03 I thought you did 21:20:33 alise, anyway I'm really curious as to what debconf was doing, since it was it that was using 99% CPU during the second stall at least 21:20:33 Yes; an AMD box and an iMac. 21:20:38 But, you know, I like this little box. It's dinky! 21:20:43 That's the actual hostname. 21:20:50 alise, what was the screen res? 21:21:02 1366x768; which, on a 13" screen, gives it a lovely dpi. 21:21:08 Enough to have a few windows on the same screen. 21:21:42 alise, opengenera uses a 800x600 window (do not resize, I haven't tried, but the snap4 README said that if you do that, BAD things will happen). And a bitmapped font that is kind of hard to read on my thinkpad at times. 21:22:00 alise, you can save state in vmware, in case you need to continue next weekend I mean 21:22:14 AnMaster: Indeed, the screen is so high-quality and high-dpi that /slight-hinted RGB subpixel rendering by (patent-patched) freetype/ actually *has no noticeable subpixels*. 21:22:20 Literally. Even if you lean your head in and strain to see. 21:22:29 It looks even better than OS X's subpixel rendering. 21:22:32 alise, yeah yeah, but opengenera can only use bitmapped fonts 21:22:38 so those will do you no good here 21:22:38 The actual font rendering isn't up to snuff, of course, but the subpixel... 21:22:41 AnMaster: 800x600 is fine. 21:22:46 alise, you can save state in vmware, in case you need to continue next weekend I mean 21:22:46 QEMU 21:22:49 and why would I need to? 21:22:50 oh right 21:22:51 no more sleepin' 21:23:01 VirtualBox can save state too IIRC. 21:23:02 alise, you got discharged? 21:23:04 err 21:23:08 qemu you mean 21:23:15 No, I meant VirtualBox. 21:23:16 Not discharged. 21:23:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:23:18 Just daypatient. 21:23:25 alise, oh wait 21:23:32 I write vmware, and meant virtualbox 21:23:35 how funny 21:23:36 -_- 21:23:41 but yes vmware can too 21:23:56 alise, can qemu though? 21:24:27 alise, if you show up sleep deprived though... things might start looking bad for you again 21:24:31 if you see what I mean 21:24:42 I'm good at hiding it. 21:24:47 Besides, I look tired on Mondays anyway. 21:24:58 AnMaster: But no, I'm on the "fast track" to being discharged in September. 21:25:01 Not to peace of course ... 21:25:02 okay. I know I personally fail at hiding lack of sleep 21:25:04 Hello ais523! 21:25:09 hi alise 21:25:14 sure I can stay awake, unless at home... but even so 21:25:18 not well hidden 21:25:34 and yes hi ais523 21:25:51 ais523, did you reach any clarity in that esr/ick/knuth issue? 21:25:54 Well, I can survive on five hours of sleep and after a bit of yawning I'm okay after noon. 21:25:59 Then by evening I crash. 21:26:00 AnMaster: it's still happening 21:26:17 ais523, I haven't heard anything except the initial statement 21:26:22 anything new since then? 21:26:31 just technical details 21:26:42 ais523, no reason why? 21:27:19 this is INTERCAL, who needs reasons? 21:27:27 but we're trying to compile a huge repo of all known C-INTERCAL history 21:27:35 wow 21:27:46 ais523, like every revision and version? 21:27:48 of ick? 21:27:51 yes 21:27:53 or all known c-intercal code? 21:28:00 well, it wasn't versioned particularly well in the past 21:28:03 ais523, don't forget my port to MPW 21:28:05 so the older history is a bit flaky 21:28:22 ais523, probably only I have the foggiest idea how to compile that though 21:28:31 if you have more history, like the MPW port, you could reply to the a.kl 21:28:33 *a.l.i post 21:28:46 ais523, I only have read only access to a.l.i 21:28:56 ais523, or usenet at all rather 21:29:01 alise: I'd like to revisit my statements re Myst "it works in Wine"; ScummVM does have a "WIP" version of the Mohawk engine used by Myst/windows (as well as Riven and the Masterpiece Edition redo), and it's even in the SVN repo and does something; presumably not very playable yet, but last commit three weeks ago so it's not quite dead either; http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/Myst 21:29:04 MPW :) 21:29:08 (This thing didn't exist, last I looked at it.) 21:29:10 anyone can use Google Groups 21:29:13 ais523, anyway, you got the patch I think? I can link you to it otherwise 21:29:19 I don't think I have it 21:29:24 ais523: AnMaster can't use Google Groups, they'll steal his inner goodness! 21:29:38 well, even I'm a bit paranoid about it, to the extent of deleting cookies afterwards 21:29:39 fizzie: ScummVM is rapidly becoming AnyDamnThingVM! 21:29:51 I have Google filtered more tightly than pretty much any other website 21:30:05 I was recently asked to 21:30:05 prepare a new INTERCAL release by no less a personage than Donald 21:30:05 Knuth, who wants to feature an INTERCAL program in his next book. 21:30:05 ais523, see the files starting at ick on this url http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ 21:30:06 So that's why. 21:30:12 ais523, see logs for url 21:30:16 that is all I can give 21:30:18 I knwo 21:30:19 ais523: tell Knuth that he should clearly use /your/ C-INTERCAL >:D 21:30:21 *know 21:30:27 alise: hey, it's backwards-compatible 21:30:31 Knuth cannot stoop so low to use esr software! 21:30:47 and the current plan is to merge the ais and esr branches 21:30:48 ais523, however there is still that issue with ick generating C89 code that MPW doesn't like 21:30:51 The new release will probably spew neoconservative propaganda on startup. >:) 21:30:53 ais523: What, forever? 21:30:55 I hope not. 21:30:57 ais523, something I never got around to trying to work around 21:31:05 ais523, forgot exactly what it didn't like too 21:31:17 AnMaster: qemu does have VM snapshots, yes. 21:31:40 ais523, esr made other changes? 21:31:43 it wasn't dead? 21:31:54 only a few, it seems 21:32:08 and none are particularly objectionable or controverisal 21:32:15 not nearly as many as I did, anyway 21:32:20 ais523, oh and another issue... I think I versioned it in bzr, I found darcs a bit annoying at that point. 21:32:21 hm 21:32:44 ais523, about binaries. Do you know about the two forks classic MacOS used to have? 21:33:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:33:53 my point is that while I could compile it for you, there is no way I could send it in a format that could be read anywhere except on classic mac OS. Either *.sit.hqx or *.sit.bin or .img.hqx or .img.bin 21:33:58 the latter is a disk image 21:34:04 created by disc copy for classic mac os 21:34:09 os x might be able to read it 21:34:11 don't know 21:34:17 it isn't an os x disk image however 21:34:26 probably the sources are enough 21:34:32 well then, see that url 21:34:36 yep, noted 21:34:40 ais523, hope the patch applies cleanly and such 21:34:46 probably doesn't against last version 21:35:01 ais523, and note: the patch is not ASCII or ISO-* 21:35:09 ais523, it is MacRoman in part, this can not be avoided 21:35:18 because MPW makefiles makes use of those symbols 21:35:24 won't work without them 21:35:28 yep 21:35:34 it replaces stuff like : in normal makefiles and such 21:36:11 ais523, oh and I'm not sure if that might change line ending in some other file. Probably best to be very careful with what you apply to your own ick from that. The fixes for generating paths should work though 21:36:29 there is a lengthy comment there about why exactly and so on 21:36:41 oh, I'd have to be utterly crazy to backport fixes intended to run on MacOS Classic 21:36:43 and then there were some pepet.c changes since system() won't work 21:37:00 clearly the optimal alternative would be to instead patch autoconf to handle that operating system 21:37:02 ais523, no, I meant if you want to apply to your own branch 21:37:06 that is all 21:37:42 ais523, the fix to generating paths and some of the stuff in perpet.c, plus some fixes to add some extra checks to configure.ac (unless I misremember) should all be fine 21:37:49 the changes you should be wary about are outside the src dir 21:38:11 What character replaces : again? 21:38:25 alise, eh, don't remember and doubt I could copy it anyway 21:38:42 You could recreate it with Unicode. Was it that S section symbol? 21:38:57 alise, well let me open the file 21:39:04 and change encoding 21:39:14 since *nix editor goes spare over this patch 21:39:36 -#line 238 "lexer.l" 21:39:37 +#line 248 "lexer.l" 21:39:37 hm 21:39:42 thousands of lines like that 21:39:48 for the pre-generated files 21:39:53 yes macs need them 21:40:25 ais523, that was another issue yeah. macs mangle \r and \n in a way similar to windows. The reverse of it that is 21:40:36 \r maps to \n and \n maps to \r 21:40:38 I know all about classic mac line endings 21:40:39 in C 21:40:46 ais523, yes but how stdio mangled I meant 21:41:04 if anyone asks me why people sometimes use \n and sometimes use code to generate a particular line ending 21:41:21 I tell them that it's to work around a bug on classic Mac OS, and as nobody uses that any more they can just use \n safely 21:41:42 XD 21:41:46 AnMaster: Has some sort of conversion happened to http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ick_classic_macppc.diff or is it the web server or what? If I wget/curl it, the file has UTF-8 0xfffd (Unicode "replacement character") in those places you'd expect uncommon characters. 21:41:51 err, kate doesn't have macroman 21:42:03 fizzie, um, it shouldn't 21:42:06 that's very bad 21:42:14 fizzie, must be broken diff 21:42:22 Or crappy webserver. 21:42:35 alise, doubt it, it servers it as application/octet-stream 21:44:21 fizzie, ais523, okay, working on fixing up a new diff 21:44:30 not using hg diff this time, it seems at fault 21:44:54 are you going to replace the old one? 21:45:23 ais523, yes, I'm going to try to diff against exported r1 (clean import) and exported last revision 21:45:28 with diff 21:45:39 if that doesn't work I'll just upload both as tarballs or something 21:47:54 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:48:38 huh... 21:51:17 Based on "iconv -f mac" and Wikipedia's "Mac OS Roman" table, it replaces the : in makefiles with ƒ -- unicode "latin small letter f with hook" -- and backslashes with ∂ -- unicode "partial differential". I remembered they were freaky from some MPW playing back then, but I didn't remember them to be quite *that* freaky, assuming the sources I looked at were correct. 21:51:37 which is the last version 21:52:10 ais523, how urgent is this? I think it may take a few hours for me to figure out which dir is the current. since the sources on the mac image doesn't perfectly match the last source control version 21:52:15 not really urgent 21:52:41 ais523, should numerals.c be part of libick.a? 21:52:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:52:46 err 21:52:48 .o not .c 21:52:57 o i c 21:53:01 yes IIRC 21:53:07 *blink* 21:53:14 then this difference makes no sense 21:53:21 -!- nooga has joined. 21:53:47 and it's an august day! 21:54:31 * AnMaster sets mmap limit to 0 and starts sheepshaver 21:59:13 these logs are too long. again. 21:59:14 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 21:59:49 it is starting to make a tiny bit more sense now 22:00:17 AnMaster: that clearly means you are finally going insane 22:00:50 oerjan, c-intercal port to classic mac os making sense, yes probably 22:01:00 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:01:10 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 22:09:15 ais523, okay I made sense of the changes to the source. I will actually try to clean this up into several patches. Some of which should be applied to your own branch really since they are somewhat generic in nature 22:12:10 Based on "iconv -f mac" and Wikipedia's "Mac OS Roman" table, it replaces the : in makefiles with ƒ -- unicode "latin small letter f with hook" -- and backslashes with ∂ -- unicode "partial differential". I remembered they were freaky from some MPW playing back then, but I didn't remember them to be quite *that* freaky, assuming the sources I looked at were correct. 22:12:14 I think partial differential is backspace 22:12:20 since \{foo}\ is a var in the shell 22:12:21 or rather 22:12:25 ∂{foo}∂ 22:12:43 hm 22:16:36 It's used as a line-continuation character there, anyway. 22:17:30 I mean I've seen it literally where I'd expect a backspace, so I confirm your sources are correct. 22:18:04 M'k. 22:18:19 K'm. 22:18:26 Well, it's possible to just look at https://gforge.uni.lu/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/*checkout*/tags/revision-1.0/expat-2.0.1/lib/Makefile.MPW?revision=271&root=hpc-ga-bench&pathrev=272 as an example, and set browser's character encoding to macroman. 22:18:54 I don't know what's up with the "{•foo•}" bits though. 22:19:45 Or the local sed-alike invocation: StreamEdit -d e "/•('XMLPARSEAPI('≈') ')«0,1»'XML_'([A-Za-z0-9_]+)®1'('/ Print 'XML_' ®1" "{HdrDir}expat.h" > {Targ} 22:29:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:30:47 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:33:17 -!- Leonidas has joined. 22:39:35 ais523, see http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/ick-mac-patches.tar.gz 22:39:40 ais523, see that url in log 22:39:54 that tarball contains a directory of patches 22:39:59 each one fixing a small thing 22:40:05 should make it easier to apply 22:40:17 that is against ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz as far as I know 22:40:32 ais523, oh and configure will need to be regenerated afterwards 22:40:44 ais523, it only includes diff to configure.ac, not to configure itself 22:41:05 Mac Roman, Macro Man. 22:41:15 alise, yes I checked the file in the tar ball 22:41:24 it contains strange stuff that is not 0xfffd 22:41:28 that much I know 22:41:30 I wasn't saying anything about you. 22:44:24 Meanwhile, for no reason, a classic PFSC: http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/comics/00000028.gif 22:44:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:44:50 -!- augur has joined. 22:47:13 ais523, *prod* 22:47:23 yes, I've seen it 22:47:39 ais523, btw I get why you want to build all historic ick versions. But what has knuth got to do with it? 22:47:59 he seems to want a new version 22:48:05 ais523, hum 22:48:14 He wants esr to make a new release, because he is including a C-INTERCAL program in his next book. 22:48:15 ais523, why all historic then 22:48:22 AnMaster: to merge all branches into one 22:48:22 because 22:48:31 and yes, easier to merge branches if you know what they are 22:48:34 alise, would be lovely, but is improbable 22:48:40 AnMaster: that's what Knuth wants. 22:48:44 AnMaster: esr and ais523 are participating. there is nobody else. 22:48:47 so it is happening 22:48:50 okay 22:48:57 besides, you can't disappoint knuth 22:48:58 include in TAOCP? 22:49:02 or some other book? 22:49:03 upsetting knuth is like ... Basically, just kill yourself. 22:49:05 AnMaster: i doubt TAOCP 22:49:08 probably some other book. 22:49:10 *phew* 22:49:13 right 22:49:17 Although ... that would be awesome. 22:49:31 yes but unlikely since it isn't written in MMIX 22:49:34 "Here we present rinky-dink sort in INTERCAL, a popular programming language." 22:49:40 XD 22:49:53 "We can contrast the structure with the MMIX version, as they both have very different control structures. However, there are some similarities." 22:49:55 wtf is rinky-dinky sort btw? 22:50:05 Knuth's new O(1) sorting algorithm over any list. 22:50:06 it sounds like it would only be efficient in INTERCAL, whatever it is 22:50:15 That's why it's important to get a new release. 22:50:21 har har 22:50:25 it's rare for INTERCAL to be more efficient than other languages, except in lines of code 22:50:29 because it's compiled via other languages 22:50:53 ais523, anyway, at least one of the patches in that tarball fixes a code gen error that makes generated code sometimes not valid C89 22:51:07 -!- ais523 has left (?). 22:51:26 : ais523, basically without 04_output_valid_c89.patch you can sometimes get zero length static arrays in the generated output 22:51:33 He doesn't logread. 22:51:38 right 22:51:40 Try MemoServ. 22:51:45 hm 22:51:49 I'll mention it next time 22:53:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:53:53 oh and btw, not all of that can be compiled in sheepshaver. it is too buggy. I remember some file crashing sheepshaver. Had to compile it on my old ibook then copy the object file over 22:54:38 Finally I got the Icoruma->TeX to work. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.dvi 22:55:23 bye everybody. 22:55:25 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 22:55:50 See? 22:57:06 Now is the time you ar expected to complain about the formatting being no good ... 22:57:40 zzo38, why dvi? 22:57:48 pdftex produces better results 22:57:53 and pdf is nodways an open format 22:57:59 Nodways. 22:58:15 AnMaster: it won't be better unless he uses lmodern 22:58:21 and i don't think there's plain tex support for lmodern. 22:58:38 I can make it produce PDF as well, if you want. 22:58:39 dvi2ps -> dvi2pdf actually produces worse results than pdflatex 22:58:50 or pdftex 22:58:55 if you are doing plain tex 22:59:10 zzo38, my point is, avoid going over dvi 22:59:33 OK I have now both DVI and PDF. 22:59:42 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.pdf 22:59:57 zzo38, with hyperref (latex only? I have no idea) you can get clickable links for the TOC in the pdf and so on 23:00:06 hyperref is latex only 23:00:12 okay 23:00:13 like everything else 23:00:23 zzo38, why are you using plain tex instead of latex? 23:00:29 he considered latex too complex 23:00:33 and couldn't get tables working properly. 23:00:45 don't knock plain tex/dvi too hard though, Knuth still writes everything in it :-D 23:00:51 AnMaster: Because Plain TeX works better, and I understand it. 23:00:55 although he has impeccable typographical taste 23:01:09 zzo38, one minor point, on page 9 there is a table, the table is left aligned while the "Table 2-1" caption is centered 23:01:19 zzo38, would probably look better if both were the same 23:01:28 I would go for both centered in a float 23:01:29 both should be centred 23:01:32 indeed 23:01:38 centred, not centered :P 23:01:54 alise, you're no longer in the ()? 23:01:59 Sgeo: the ()? 23:02:08 what? 23:02:14 AnMaster,alise: Yes I do believe you. I just haven't completed it yet, but the part that works it now works. I will fix these things 23:02:17 Sorry, me being silly obfuscating what I mean. 23:02:22 the unit 23:02:59 (However, I believe there is a way of doing hyperlinks with Plain TeX, since I have seen CWEB printouts that use it (and CWEB uses Plain TeX) 23:03:06 no hyphenation? 23:03:18 You might have to use \special or whatever, though 23:03:25 ah there is one 23:03:37 was worried something was broken at first 23:03:39 but seems fine 23:03:48 Some authors do not like hyphenation 23:04:08 I turned off hyphenation in tables, for one thing, otherwise I would keep getting overfull hboxes 23:04:10 well, tex is quite good at avoiding it when possible 23:04:11 * Sgeo pokes alise 23:04:25 i am poke'd 23:04:37 zzo38, well in tables it might make sense. Also overful hboxes is not really an issue unless something actually looks wrong in the result 23:04:38 Sgeo: i'm there - as daypatient, thrice weekly. 23:04:49 That's better than before, at least 23:04:54 hyphenation is a Good Thing 23:06:05 zzo38, quite nice. The only issue I saw was that table not being centred 23:06:17 AnMaster: Yes, and it will be fixed later on. 23:06:18 and that using pdflatex with lmodern would produce better results 23:06:43 I have both PDF and DVI now. But I am not using LaTeX 23:06:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Bye for now). 23:06:55 the font manages to be a bit blurry on my monitor 23:10:23 Gregor, AnMaster, you're good at paging and stuff, right? 23:10:35 I'm good at paging and stuff? 23:11:18 Gregor, on x86-64 can you page to an address that the machine doesn't support? 23:11:18 I guess 'cause you're BORING :P 23:11:41 With more than 40 bits of address, I mean. 23:11:56 I want Wooble to be a jerk to me again so I can whack him with the institution bat. >_> 23:12:30 Wooble? 23:15:20 An Agora player; tends to be an asshole. To everyone. 23:15:31 Gregor, thoughts? 23:15:53 Phantom_Hoover: I do think you can use all 48 bits in virtual addresses; 40 bits is just how many physical address bits there are. 23:16:13 48 bits‽ Not nearly enough! 23:16:14 Doesn't it pretty much say that? "address sizes : 40 bits physical, 48 bits virtual" 23:16:18 I need 64! 23:16:26 Why do you need 64? 23:16:31 Complicated. 23:16:50 Oh, like that Facebook relationship status. 23:16:58 Indeed. 23:17:02 fizzie: i think alise has been encouraging him 23:17:10 Mine is "widowed". 23:17:43 We don't need 64 ... 23:17:47 :P 23:18:41 Oh, this is some sort of SECRET POR-JECT of you folks. Sounds SUSPICIOUS; expect a visit from the COPS, just in case it has to do with 64-BIT DRUGS. 23:19:27 I hear digital drugs are the latest thing: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/07/digital-drugs/ 23:19:38 fizzie: they're persistent offenders 23:19:54 Oh, those things. 23:20:16 alise: They're gateway drugs to really dangerous sequences of bits. 23:20:23 Heh; available on YouTube. Even if they did work that will utterly destroy any actual binaural qualities in it. 23:20:32 There's a reason binaural things are distributed losslessly. 23:21:53 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:21:54 alise: the article _starts_ talking about MP3s... 23:22:20 People use MP3 to mean any audio file nowadays. 23:22:42 I wouldn't put it past Wired, let alone a *blog* on wired.com. 23:22:59 People u 23:23:11 (at least here) use "MP3" to refer to portable media players. 23:23:17 "How many songs do you have on your MP3?" 23:23:28 "My MP3 is the red one: it can store more songs than the silver one." 23:24:31 The same people use "web" to mean "a instant messaging conversation performed with the aid of a webcam". As in, "I was in web with so-and-so, and ..." 23:24:44 alise: the wired articles doesn't really seem to be taking this seriously :D 23:24:51 *article 23:25:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 23:26:22 language: driving prescriptists mad since the ancient babylonians 23:26:30 *prescriptivists 23:26:34 *prescriptivists...dammit 23:27:06 * oerjan should have just dropped his own correction and chastised alise for taking the hook 23:27:08 -!- nooga has joined. 23:27:22 oerjan: how ironic 23:27:41 very meta 23:28:09 I never meta very I didn't like. 23:28:27 X 23:28:36 * oerjan isn't sure what his mouth is doing 23:29:16 There's a reason binaural things are distributed losslessly. <-- ? 23:29:33 why? 23:29:34 Fnord fnord fnord fnord. 23:29:42 okay 23:29:43 AnMaster: because they require lots of crazy pitches and shit to "work" (if they do work at all) 23:29:55 psychoacoustic compression is designed for the sound of music and the like, not precision 23:29:58 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 23:31:06 sounds like the perfect weapon for those evil-AI-in-a-not-quite-perfect-box things 23:31:14 It's not strange that something you're not supposed to consciously notice is messed by a compression method based on keeping only noticeable features of the sound and throwing away all the rest. 23:32:11 Especially the "joint stereo" stuff would probably horribly break all that fluff. Assuming any of it does anything, that is. 23:36:05 Also: who's responsible if a low-bitrate encoding of a drug-soundclip causes some kid to think he's an orange and peel himself with a knife? The codec author? Ratifier of the corresponding standard? These are important questions. 23:36:32 whaaat? 23:36:58 See the wired link for contect. 23:37:13 Text. 23:38:20 (Asleep now.) 23:38:52 fizzie sleepIRCs. 23:38:54 what the fuck 23:39:20 alise, fizzie, after reading the wired link I can only conclude that people from the onion invaded their office 23:39:26 it is that weird 23:46:51 maybe they've been listening to drugs 23:55:30 -!- charlls has joined.