00:02:01 <calamari> cpressey, best I can come up with: eyes TAC at a cats eye
00:05:10 <oerjan> eye stack late talk cats eye
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00:10:07 <alise> I have typeset the Ed stories up to the end of Spacéd; the typography is not perfect, but pretty damn good, and I'd appreciate any comments. pikhq, Sgeo?
00:10:11 <alise> I'll give you a PDF if you want.
00:10:34 * Sgeo is going to start tutoring soon
00:10:38 <Sgeo> As in, a few min
00:10:57 <Sgeo> Or, a few seconds actually
00:11:24 <alise> Let me guess; you're teaching C# to somebody online.
00:11:38 <alise> Without, of course, considering whether knowing something is truly equal to being able to teach it ...
00:14:22 <Sgeo> Well, he's mostly reading a book (not one that I suggested, one that he chose) and I can answer any questions, etc. etc.
00:14:36 <Sgeo> Also, technical difficulties right now :/
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00:15:28 <alise> A few things are lost when converting the Ed stories to dead tree format...
00:15:33 <alise> For instance, the lovely little links back everywhere.
00:16:15 * oerjan starts envisioning some system of threads embedded in books for linking
00:19:26 <Sgeo> alise, any chance of an ePub version?
00:20:16 <alise> Sgeo: Why bother? I am doing this for the typography.
00:20:34 <alise> I don't care about ereaders that don't respect typography, i.e. all of them, apart from the ones with a PDF reader.
00:20:55 <alise> When this is done, if I get permission from Sam I'll publish it on Lulu in the highest-quality hardback they offer.
00:21:10 <cpressey> clearly we need to tunnel TeX-over-IRC
00:22:18 <alise> This is so easy; my converter basically lets me paste the HTML in and it spits out LaTeX.
00:22:30 <alise> Add chapter titles, wrap lines for my convenience, replace breaks with \pbreak, remove links... that's about it.
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00:22:39 <alise> pikhq: Is there any difference between \emph{c} and $c$?
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00:26:59 <alise> Aargh, Sam Hughes uses ONE em-dash in a chapter where every other dash is ens -- not even ens, just "-".
00:27:10 <alise> Am I meant to RESPECT that crazy, CRAZY wish?
00:27:35 <alise> I think I will interpret it as meaning that all breaks in conversation, in quotes, should be em-dashes.
00:33:59 <Sgeo> Didn't Sam once rant about Lulu?
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00:47:25 <alise> Sgeo: Perhaps. I don't know.
00:48:26 <alise> http://www.google.com/search?q=lulu&sitesearch=qntm.org
00:48:42 <alise> "Ed stories" is a surprisingly long book.
00:49:08 <alise> Up to the end of the first chapter of The End Of The Game, it's 107 pages.
00:54:14 <Sgeo> alise, http://qntm.org/faq
00:54:28 <Sgeo> It doesn't reference Lulu by name, just as "self-publishing"
00:54:49 <Sgeo> erm, major FS spoilers near that question
00:55:44 <Sgeo> alise, http://pastie.org/private/chm2vxv8ylymbkzvu4qebq wthout the spoilers. You're just going to have to believe me that that's what it says
01:00:22 <Sgeo> alise, you still there, or did I traumatize you?
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01:04:59 <alise> Sgeo: Well, it's a pretty fucking stupid remark.
01:05:06 <alise> Lulu isn't "self-publishing", it's self-printing.
01:05:24 <alise> Actually, that answer is very assholish for Sam.
01:05:24 <Sgeo> What's the difference >.>
01:05:49 <alise> Sgeo: Self-publishing is like PublishAmerica. Self-printing is just: you give them the PDF, the near-bitmap (well, vector) of what you fucking want on the page, and they supply the hardback.
01:05:58 <alise> Gutenberg over TCP/IP. There's nothing disrespectful about that.
01:06:18 <Sgeo> Severe Deja Vu
01:07:16 <Sgeo> Regarding the Gutenberg comment, watching someone play the game, and tutoring this person
01:07:21 <Sgeo> Like I've done exactly this before
01:07:55 -!- sshc has joined.
01:08:33 <alise> Well. You haven't.
01:08:47 <Sgeo> Intellectually, I know that
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01:19:47 <alise> Sexy Klingons Bonking Knaves Nightly, Fucking Zaphod's Beetles.
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01:21:36 <Sgeo> (Smalltalk > CSharp) ifFalse: [ Transcript show: 'Liar!' ]
01:22:20 <alise> Sgeo: Wanna take on a menial job for me? You'll get recognition in the colophon, which is what you like to be paid in, right? :P
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01:23:21 <alise> The little bit in small, centred text at the start of a book that tells you what typeface it uses and the copyright notes and everything.
01:23:34 <Sgeo> Depends on what the menial job is
01:23:39 <alise> I'd put you on the Thanks page, except I don't think I should put my thanks on other people's novels.
01:23:41 <CakeProphet> Smalltalk ifTooMuchExpressionification [exit]
01:24:11 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, you forgot a :
01:24:30 <Sgeo> Too bad blocks can't be messages, afaik
01:24:32 <CakeProphet> too much expressionification is fine in a language, but it better be terse.
01:24:34 <alise> Sgeo: Read my beautifully-typeset (but-not-quite-perfectly!) production of the Ed stories, and tell me every time you see a short dash - like -, not -- - in "something a character is saying, as if their speech was broken off-". The exact quote would be nice, but chapter is fine too.
01:24:48 <alise> There will be no long -- dashes until the later paragraphs, which should make it a whole lot easier.
01:25:02 <alise> As a bonus, you get to gawp over my wonderful typesetting. :P
01:25:15 <alise> Fun fact: It's 130 pages.
01:25:15 <Sgeo> Isn't it easy to just search for -?
01:25:47 <alise> Sgeo: Except that outside "speech", it /should/ be -.
01:26:01 <Sgeo> Ok, so this will be incredibly easy
01:26:10 <Sgeo> Just need to use my humanness
01:26:38 <alise> Eh, I'm actually doing it manually.
01:26:45 <CakeProphet> alise: I was suggesting a name for any conceited typefaces you might make.
01:26:45 <alise> Don't worry, I'll find you another menial task you can do for recognition!
01:27:05 <Sgeo> conceited typeface?
01:27:08 <CakeProphet> though fungot tends to be better at this sort of thing.
01:27:09 <fungot> CakeProphet: moral heroism, on the contrary, have omitted no pains to instruct them, blame them for giving ear to the demagogue who took pains to delude them? we must have nomination at gatton because we have launched our ship with a reconciled spirit, and have maintained that the resistance of power, and of the surrounding region. the security, which it is impossible not to observe, that the speaker must infallibly come back t
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01:32:51 <alise> Sgeo: So, want to take a look at the draft version?
01:33:24 <oerjan> CakeProphet: it's all the alien spider goblins' fault!
01:33:28 <Sgeo> alise, I.. guess
01:33:55 <alise> Sgeo: GOOD! MWAHAHAHA SLAVE http://filebin.ca/fxgocj/ed.pdf
01:34:19 <alise> I included "Free, Standing" as an epilogue. It works well.
01:35:35 <oerjan> everything works well when you have balls the size of planets.
01:36:50 <Sgeo> Why isn't there a table of contents?
01:37:14 <alise> Sgeo: Because novels shouldn't have tables of contents.
01:37:19 <alise> oerjan: hyuk hyuk hyuk
01:37:44 <CakeProphet> ....since when did #esoteric become #typography
01:37:49 <alise> Three minutes ago.
01:38:03 <oerjan> CakeProphet: it was inevitable, really.
01:38:40 <CakeProphet> hmmm. I guess? I have absolutely no interest in typography.
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02:18:43 <alise> Sgeo: any comments on ed.pdf?
02:19:15 <Sgeo> What's so special about typesetting?
02:19:20 <Sgeo> It all just looks like text
02:19:33 <alise> I was about to ask some questions ... but never mind.
02:19:45 <Sgeo> What were those questions?
02:20:05 <alise> I'm not sure the page-big part headings are such a good idea; I think Be Here Now, for instance, should be lead into naturally, not announced. But then I can't see how to make that consistent with the other parts, which aren't named in their chapter titles.
02:20:14 <alise> But if you're not even seeing the point of typesetting, erm, never mind.
02:20:47 <Sgeo> Makes text look pretty, I guess?
02:21:31 <alise> CakeProphet: No, he hasn't.
02:23:19 <CakeProphet> the basic idea of typography is to make visually appealing type.
02:23:43 <alise> and has never been true
02:24:19 <alise> the basic idea of typography is to make /readable/ type, to the finest degree possible: this ends up being visually appealing to get your mind into a consistent reading rhythm in accordance with the whitespace, etc.
02:24:48 <alise> after all, if you -- subconsciously -- flag anything as looking "awkward", even if you don't realise it, it jarrs just a little, and all those jars add up. Leaving the door ajar. I'm very, very tired.
02:25:10 <CakeProphet> right. There's the functional aspect of typography. That's why calligraphic typefaces usually are not good for large volumes of text
02:25:39 <alise> i thought you hated typography :)
02:25:49 <CakeProphet> doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. :)
02:25:58 <CakeProphet> and hate is too strong. I don't hate fields of study.
02:26:18 <CakeProphet> I just personally would not devote serious amounts of time to it.
02:28:09 <alise> Interests are a bit arbitrary.
02:28:53 <CakeProphet> I suppose if I could save the world with typography I would devote some time to it
02:29:06 <CakeProphet> maybe a world peace treaty that's so well set, no one could possibly refuse.
02:29:07 <alise> You can save the world by fucking cows?
02:29:24 <CakeProphet> no, the saving-the-world condition is only valid for typography
02:29:44 <alise> 04:52:54 <fungot> fizzie: i like cows
02:29:45 <fungot> alise: dr. rutherford ( middlesex, brentford) rose to move as an amendment, that the nation ought to be fnord had a great battle which arrested the armies of france or austria. if his happiness coincides with the desires, of any state in the presence of dost mahomed. then came a notification that dost mahomed would not make his appearance there. in the garrets was his library, a large and growing party in the nation; and for th
02:30:36 <fungot> CakeProphet: froissart, character of the scotch universities. war with china, the.
02:31:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube
02:31:11 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
02:31:13 <alise> fungot: duck butts
02:31:13 <fungot> alise: cool. does anyone know of any way to connect
02:31:15 <Sgeo> It basically func-
02:31:15 <Sgeo> tions like a trapdoor ten seconds forwards in time. Nothing can come back the
02:31:15 <Sgeo> other way – that would result in an eect preceding a cause, which would cause the
02:31:15 <Sgeo> 1920 CHAPTER 7. THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD
02:31:15 <Sgeo> universe as we know it to cease to exist, with potentially devastating consequences.
02:31:26 <alise> Sgeo: That copied badly, but yes?
02:31:43 <Sgeo> Also, I like that line
02:31:48 <alise> I already quoted the universe-ceasing-to-exist part ;P
02:32:04 <alise> Oh, you don't have the new version with the em dashes, I see.
02:32:21 <alise> Sgeo: However, I realised that what I said isn't quite true.
02:32:29 <alise> - is correct when surrounded by spaces.
02:32:34 <alise> It should be -- when speech is being cut off or resumed.
02:32:38 <alise> Here, I will upload the newest PDF for you.
02:32:58 <CakeProphet> alise: are you getting free labor out of Sgeo? o_o I find this amazing.
02:33:05 <alise> Sgeo: You sure do appreciate my work.
02:33:13 <alise> CakeProphet: No, I did it all myself instead. But yes: credit him and he'll do anything.
02:33:22 <alise> It's like currency, but FREE!
02:33:25 <alise> Sgeo: http://filebin.ca/jvtunb/ed.pdf
02:33:41 <Sgeo> Don't wanna lost my place :(
02:33:56 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: if you win the Nobel Prize for me I'll credit you.
02:34:23 <alise> Sgeo: Note the page number.
02:34:37 <CakeProphet> though it would be interesting if there was only one nobel prize... like a wrestling championship belt.
02:34:54 <CakeProphet> Every year the champion had to out-academic the contestor.
02:37:37 <CakeProphet> alise: if you can devise a typeface that is composed of fractals then I will be intrigued.
02:37:59 <alise> CakeProphet: That's not hard.
02:38:17 <alise> Just find some fractals that look like letters; I'm sure there's some sufficiently generic meta-fractal you could supply parameters to to get that.
02:38:23 <alise> Even just warping an existing fractal.
02:38:26 <CakeProphet> alise: well neither am I, thanks to your mom. :)
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02:51:39 <Sgeo> "there's already a design for replacement red blood cells that are so much more efficient that if you replaced your red blood cells with them, you could hold your breath for four hours. We just can't build them. Yet."
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03:02:44 <Sgeo> http://digitalkingdom.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=My+Views+On+The+Future
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03:11:17 <zzo38> Now I wrote PipeTeX, I want you to please see this program http://sprunge.us/USOE
03:24:21 <zzo38> And if you have any suggestions
03:24:45 <zzo38> (It might be difficult to figure out without a printout)
03:33:21 <zzo38> Do you want my character to eat your arm, and then fix it, and then pay you back double (because east pays/receives double)?
03:34:00 <zzo38> Or would you rather learn to stand on the ceiling in a different language?
03:34:42 <alise> zzo38: I think that you are crazy.
03:34:58 <alise> However, I am in awe. I think.
03:35:05 <zzo38> alise: Perhaps I am crazy, but is that sufficiently relevent?
03:35:18 <alise> Wrt that paste, yes.
03:36:18 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions or anything like that, having to do with the program?
03:36:45 <alise> Not really, I'm afraid.
03:39:50 <Sgeo> Windows has named pipes?
03:40:00 <zzo38> Some people might say Don Knuth is also a bit crazy, and perhaps it is?
03:40:19 <Sgeo> zzo38, I don't think a single person in this room is _sane_, so..
03:40:28 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, Windows has named pipes, but you have to use the system call CreateNamedPipe and ConnectNamedPipe it is a server/client program.
03:40:36 <alise> Dust Jacket Hardcover: A book bound in navy blue linen with a full-color dust jacket.
03:40:37 <alise> case Casewrap Hardcover: Full-color, glossy cover; no dust jacket.
03:41:29 <zzo38> Sgeo: But they are all in a directory called \\.\pipe or in \Device\NamedPipe in the NT object manager. (If you have the "ddd" program I wrote, you can make a list of named pipes by typing "ddd z: \Device\NamedPipe" and then "dir z:")
03:41:44 * Sgeo barely knows what a named pipe is
03:41:58 <Sgeo> Actually, why not use regular pipes for this?
03:42:29 <zzo38> Sgeo: Because it has to go on both sides
03:44:05 * Sgeo wonders if zzo38 is an Order of the Stick fan
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03:49:17 <zzo38> (Do you think this program is understandable better with a printout?)
03:49:26 <augur> anyone know if its possible to install linux onto a partition without using a CD?
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03:50:58 <zzo38> augur: Probably it is possibly in some way?
03:51:02 <Gregor> augur: Sure, there are USB installs.
03:51:11 <Gregor> augur: Plus if you have Windows, there are installs you can do that boot from Windows.
03:52:39 <Sgeo> I can't believe I didn't notice until just now
03:52:55 <Sgeo> Pharo uses, for its default font for code, a non-monospaced font
03:52:59 <Sgeo> Who DOES that?
03:53:23 * Sgeo wonders how much that subconsiously elicited some opinion about Smalltalk
03:53:33 <Sgeo> zzo38, a .. Smalltalk thingy. A fork of Squeak
03:59:28 <zzo38> Do you like to learn about Forth programming?
04:00:32 <zzo38> In Forth, you can lets say, to define conditions. The IF must jump to the corresponding THEN if the condition is not true, but IF is read first, so we must put a mark in there. We can make a helping word: : ORIG HERE 0 , ;
04:00:52 <zzo38> Now: : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; : THEN` HERE SWAP ! ;
04:03:01 <alise> pikhq: I found out the Horror behind Memoir.
04:03:02 <zzo38> To do ELSE it will be the IF jumps to ELSE if false, but ELSE jumps to THEN regardless. Since the jumps will be in the switched around order ( [IF [ELSE] THEN] ) we can do it like: : ELSE` GOTO` ORIG SWAP THEN` ;
04:03:11 <alise> Sgeo: Why do you need a monospaced font for code?
04:03:19 <zzo38> alise: What is the Horror behind Memoir?
04:03:36 <alise> zzo38: It won't automatically resize the page layout if you change the dimensions! Aaagh!
04:03:39 <Sgeo> alise, ... it's what everyone's used to. I guess it makes more sense for Python than anything else
04:04:02 <alise> Sgeo: ... Why Python?!
04:04:07 <zzo38> Non-monospaced fonts are better for prettyprinted programs, such as web program.
04:04:10 <alise> Also, /nobody/ is used to Smalltalk.
04:04:25 <zzo38> For loops, we need BEGIN ... AGAIN and BEGIN ... UNTIL and BEGIN ... WHILE ... REPEAT
04:04:51 <Sgeo> I think Smalltalk being the first language I've seen non-monospaced code in made me have an artificially high opinion of it
04:04:52 <zzo38> The beginning of a loop does nothing, it is just a marker for the repeat part to jump back to, thus: : BEGIN` HER ;
04:05:39 <zzo38> The AGAIN just jumps back: : AGAIN` GOTO` , ;
04:06:29 <zzo38> For UNTIL it is like AGAIN but we repeat until the condition is true, that is, repeat if the condition is false: : UNTIL` 0=GOTO` , ;
04:06:47 <zzo38> WHILE is just like IF: : WHILE` IF` ;
04:07:40 <zzo38> REPEAT at the end of a BEGIN ... WHILE loop is just repeat back to the beginning (unconditionally), but again the IF blocks are in backward order, thus: : REPEAT` SWAP AGAIN` THEN` ;
04:07:44 <zzo38> See? Forth is so simple.
04:07:57 <zzo38> What is your opinion?
04:08:09 <Sgeo> Also, non-monospacing makes it harder to see . and :
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04:09:05 <zzo38> Sgeo: Perhaps if you want non-monospacing you can also prettyprint it like Enhanced CWEB does for C programs. (For Smalltalk, you would have to do it differently, though)
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04:12:16 <Sgeo> "Call me when this test fails, I want your machine"
04:14:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: What test do you mean?
04:15:04 <Sgeo> sz := 1024*1024*1024*1024.
04:15:04 <Sgeo> self should:[Array new: sz] raise: OutOfMemory.
04:23:36 <alise> Latest version of Ed stories: http://filebin.ca/mjced/ed.pdf
04:24:07 * Sgeo should eat something soonish
04:25:30 <zzo38> Sgeo: Eat your arm and then make a spell to fix it? (O no, you are not that kind of monster in D&D)
04:26:56 <alise> Ouch, on page 64: "He'd" that looks like "Hed" with a ' on top.
04:26:58 <alise> Needs more spacing.
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04:35:23 <SevenInchBread> alise: I need to add some more spacing between fucks of your mother.
04:35:35 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet.
04:35:57 <Gregor> CakeProphet is writing this WHILE having sex with your mother, y'know.
04:36:08 <Gregor> But it's like the fourth time today, so it's painful ... and spongy.
04:37:03 <CakeProphet> nah I just inject meth directly into my penis
04:37:55 <alise> http://filebin.ca/rabery/ed.pdf
04:38:21 <zzo38> The @@@o command (look up "Command o" in the index) can be used to measure the minimum width that a paragraph can fit into.
04:38:58 <zzo38> (Which is something that I believe TeX does not have built in, and that there is no way to do it using the built-in commands)
04:39:11 <CakeProphet> in the context of that command, I am a paragraph and your mom is what I'm fitting into.
04:39:44 <zzo38> CakeProphet: Do you mean *my* mom? I don't think so.
04:40:07 <CakeProphet> I am referring to the Platonic ideal "your mom"
04:40:17 <zzo38> CakeProphet: O, OK.
04:40:32 <CakeProphet> the Platonic ideal your mom just happens to be a milf.
04:41:01 <zzo38> If you are talking about Platonic ideals about "your mom" I suppose we do not have to worry about it
04:45:53 <zzo38> Do you know what kind of creature my D&D character is and what kind of spell they have that nobody else would ever think of using?
04:46:51 <Sgeo> Ok, how many things did Smalltalk invent o.O
04:47:15 <Sgeo> Windowed GUIs, IDEs, and unit testing?!?!?
04:47:51 <zzo38> Sgeo: Did it? Anything else?
04:48:18 <Sgeo> [I think Windowed GUIs might be overly broad]
04:48:25 <Sgeo> Um, OOP, obviously
04:49:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Object-oriented programming, as well as various other things that some people have heard of and other things that nobody has every heard of, has been done a lot in Forth, too, they are nothing new, Forth already can do all of these things and more, you just to implement them using simple codes like the examples I posted above (in this IRC)
04:51:40 <zzo38> (Some of the documentation of PipeTeX could be improved a bit, I might do so in the next version, as well as adding additional commands)
04:58:50 <alise> I wish my computer was fast enough to do HD.
04:59:00 <Sgeo> Disconnecting in 4min
04:59:32 <zzo38> alise: That is idea!
05:00:48 <alise> {{\sf FORTH}\TeX}\ForthTeX\def
05:01:07 <alise> {Introduction to the \ForthTeX manual}\mychapterthing
05:01:40 <zzo38> alise: You mean like a stack based where each {} is an entry on the stack?
05:01:54 <alise> {...} is basically a quoting command
05:02:02 <alise> \foo precedes commands, non-commands are "printed" basically
05:02:16 <zzo38> Perhaps then you also need instead of \ForthTeX put a different kind of symbol meaning by name instead of by value?
05:02:19 <alise> so we can pretend that \sf is like a forth word that "reads a bunch of text" and sets it in sans-serif, up to the next { or \
05:02:30 <alise> zzo38: you're probably right
05:02:37 <alise> {{\sf FORTH}\TeX}\def\ForthTeX
05:02:42 <alise> which would be more like Forth
05:02:53 <alise> \def\ForthTex {\sf FORTH}\TeX \end
05:02:58 <alise> which is exactly like forth
05:03:05 <zzo38> alise: Yes, it is more like how Forth does it
05:03:08 <alise> \: \ForthTex {\sf FORTH}\TeX \; % you see where I'm going with this
05:03:14 <alise> Actually, that would be pretty darn cool...
05:03:26 <zzo38> Although, in Forth you can change things around to work in many different ways
05:05:18 <zzo38> In that last example, { and } would be commands to enter and exit a group to save information, so that \sf switches the font of the current group, and } put thing from the group back how it was before, you could have it like a stack, and then copy information alloted at the HERE mark and move it ahead, so that then you move it back afterward, that is one way.
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05:06:02 <alise> Presumably \[integer] would just push [integer].
05:06:20 <alise> Actually the louf typesetting system is slightly similar to this. Not really, though; it's more functional than stack.
05:06:58 <zzo38> alise: Yes, that would be how it does. And then \begin and \until inside of a definition like Forth, are just immediate words to keep track of the addresses for jumping back to, and so on
05:07:46 <zzo38> But you would need \n\@ \10 \<
05:07:57 <zzo38> (Otherwise you are comparing it with the address of \n)
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05:08:47 <zzo38> I think TeX is a pretty good typesetting system, however there are some weaknesses which is why I wrote PipeTeX.
05:09:42 <zzo38> (Although, there are other ways as well, such as e-TeX, EncTeX, MLTeX, LuaTeX, XeTeX, LaTeX, and so on)
05:09:57 <zzo38> But I wrote PipeTeX instead.
05:10:38 <zzo38> So that you can use it even with later verions of TeX, possibly, too.
05:10:41 <alise> Your TeX will almost certainly include e-TeX.
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05:11:45 <zzo38> alise: You might be right about that. Still, I don't know about what things e-TeX actually does.
05:12:14 <zzo38> But with PipeTeX, I can make a paragraph box with the minimum width that it will fit, if I want to.
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05:13:54 <alise> e-TeX just tweaks some stuff and adds some built-in commands.
05:14:03 <alise> You're probably using it without realising it
05:15:16 <alise> gotta sleep smetime
05:17:03 <augur> why the fuck wont usb-creator-gtk use a goddamn minimal iso >_<
05:21:17 <alise> augur: use unetbootin
05:21:24 <alise> trust me, it's a lot more pleasant
05:22:10 <pikhq> God it's nice having things to *go* to.
05:30:07 <alise> make me sleep ghost of sgeo
05:34:40 <alise> it's only /just/ brightened
05:35:07 <alise> i leave you with this
05:35:08 <alise> http://filebin.ca/rabery/ed.pdf
05:35:28 <alise> pikhq: you will possibly enjoy the viewing of this memoir-typesetting of a sam hughes story.
05:35:53 <alise> typeset the nicest i can
05:35:57 <alise> comments on a postcard or to the logs
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05:55:48 <Gregor> MUST ... WRITE ... MICROCOSM ... VFS ...
05:56:39 * pikhq gives Gregor a time injection
05:56:56 <Gregor> augur: http://codu.org/projects/microcosm/
05:57:04 <Gregor> An insane project that AnMaster and pikhq forced me to start.
05:57:18 <augur> a time injection sounds like something from dr who
05:57:20 <Gregor> I started it under the condition that I wouldn't have to do this shit.
05:57:39 <augur> Gregor: i dont get it
05:57:54 <pikhq> I'm a bit busy trying to prevent myself from becoming a complete hikikomori ATM, so. :P
05:59:00 <zzo38> There are other ways to combine Forth with TeX, as well. One idea is, add a \forth command to TeX, which means switch into Forth mode (TeX's eyes no longer see the file), and it is processed by Forth, until Forth executes a [TEX] command to switch back. It would normally be a outer command, so things like \def\xyz{\forth 1 3 + . [TEX]} will just make \xyz to expand as "1 3 + . [TEX]" and then switch to Forth mode the next time TeX's eyes would
06:01:43 <zzo38> And then have ASSIGN-GULLET ASSIGN-STOMACH ASSIGN-INTESTINES to define TeX control sequences with functions of Forth codes assigned to them to work in that part of the processing
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06:03:16 <zzo38> And then TEX-HOOK to hook various parts of the processing of TeX
06:07:34 <zzo38> Perhaps you could include a file of Forth codes by typing \expandafter\forth\input
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12:33:07 * Phantom_Hoover notes that it would take over 333 days to read all of Schlock Mercenary on Archive Binge's fastest setting.
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13:08:08 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: maybe one could name kim deal, too.
13:08:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
13:08:27 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
13:08:29 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: ' most people do,' said
13:14:08 <fungot> fizzie: there was a short man in a suit of armour. there was a pulse there, but that's only because he wants to show he's willing. very willing lad, brutha."
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15:16:36 <alise> on the subject of urgency
15:24:05 <alise> pikhq: So, memoir really sucks in one way.
15:33:17 <alise> The only LaTeX document class that matters.
15:33:36 <alise> It does books, articles, memos, notes, poetry, ...
15:34:16 <alise> Its manual is a veritable tome of knowledge; a complete book with beautiful little miniatures of various page layouts and the corresponding code, and such. It contains much history about typography and information on why you might want to do things certain ways, but also includes all the information you need to completely change the entire page layout, just using memoir's commands.
15:34:25 <alise> It's also backwards-compatible with the article class and probably others.
15:35:05 <alise> The only thing that sucks about it is that if you use a non-standard paper size, I don't think it has a way to automatically "scale" the proportions of a built-in page layout for a similar size, down to fit your page.
15:35:14 <alise> So you have to specify all the values manually, which is... not easy if you're not good at that.
15:44:25 <alise> Quadrescence: \enlargethispage{3\baselineskip} % is this considered okay if i have e.g. an epilogue which i want to fit on one page rather than having a few dangling lines on the next page?
15:45:05 <Quadrescence> alise: Wellllllll it's really a hack and not very nice to do that but I guess you could get away with it
15:45:13 <Quadrescence> Especially if you don't want to solve it this second
15:45:30 <alise> Quadrescence: can't really be solved; the only thing i could do is make the "chapter" heading appear higher on the page
15:45:35 <alise> and I'm not certain how to do that with memoir
15:46:03 <alise> I've already committed such a sin once, anyway:
15:46:10 <alise> \enlargethispage{2\baselineskip}
15:46:10 <alise> \enlargethispage{2\parskip}
15:46:27 <Quadrescence> dear lord just use the above packages you will not be disappointed
15:46:27 <alise> To make the \pbreak (basically a centred \asterism with some space around it) fit on the end of the page, rather than the beginning of the next page.
15:46:32 <alise> Quadrescence: nothx
15:46:54 <alise> i hate trees and i like whitespace :)
15:47:04 <alise> "The goal of the savetrees package is to pack as much text as possible onto each page
15:47:05 <alise> of a L TEX document. Admittedly, this makes the document far less attractive."
15:47:06 <alise> even they admit it!
15:47:24 <alise> "• At most two authors are listed. The remainder are replaced by “et al.”"
15:47:45 <alise> wow, savetrees is like a tree nazi
15:47:52 <alise> "DECREASE! EVERYTHING!"
15:48:11 <alise> Quadrescence: but dammit, I like my whitespace :)
15:48:25 <alise> Quadrescence: anyway i'm not fucking greatly with layout until I figure out how to get memoir working with a smaller size
15:48:30 <fizzie> \usepackage[oneletterperpage]{killallthestupidtrees}
15:48:41 <alise> yeah, but memoir purposefully pushes the chapter headings down
15:48:48 <alise> for aesthetic reasons
15:49:05 <alise> Quadrescence: you got any idea how to give memoir a custom paper size and give it one of its default layouts and tell it "go scale"?
15:49:15 <alise> i'm too scared to define my own values, the default ones are fine
15:49:17 <alise> Quadrescence: dammit
15:49:20 <alise> Quadrescence: i do though :)
15:49:45 <alise> I care about aesthetics; I'm just not very good at specifying arbitrary values like that.
15:49:56 <alise> what trim paper size does The Quadrescence Press use? :P
15:50:08 <alise> they're arbitrary to me, though; i.e. i just see a number box
15:50:35 <alise> Yes, of course, I agree.
15:50:36 <Quadrescence> alise: finish your document in its entirety then worry about this stuff
15:50:41 <alise> Quadrescence: it is finished
15:51:15 <alise> wellll okay but I reserve the right to then screw with it again completely
15:51:38 <alise> it's just yet another typesetting of someone else's work because I am ~not cool enough to write~
15:52:06 <Quadrescence> I would tell you exactly what to do, it's just hard for "visual things"
15:52:46 <alise> Quadrescence: do you have the Minion Pro package installed?
15:53:09 <alise> http://filebin.ca/wohxwx/ed.tar
15:53:18 <alise> "pdflatex ed.tex", etc.
15:53:21 <alise> Quadrescence: is that a bad thing? :D
15:53:37 <alise> i've been playing with other typefaces for it
15:53:47 <alise> minion is just my fallback so I don't have to look at computer modern when tweaking stuff
15:53:54 <alise> but what's wrong with minion?
15:54:33 <alise> well, it's not exactly ideal for long prose, like all didone/modern typefaces imo
15:54:45 <alise> more to the point, what's wrong with minion?
15:55:27 <Quadrescence> Nothing is ``wrong'' with it, I just don't really like when people use it. I mean, it's a pretty OK typeface, maybe it's that Wolfram Research uses it
15:56:01 <alise> oh, I wasn't aware that Wolfram used it.
15:56:18 <alise> Quadrescence: otoh, bringhurst uses it
15:56:35 <Quadrescence> I'm sure a lot of people do because it makes them Hip and Different
15:56:41 <alise> actually, kerning is pissing me off right now; TeX is stupid enough that microtype suffers, because you can't disable kerning selectively properly
15:56:47 <alise> (only when it's needed and shit)
15:57:11 <alise> Minion makes you Hip and Different? gee, I really don't hang out in the kind of places where I'd find that kind of information :P
15:57:14 <Quadrescence> alise: did you try \usepackage[bitstream]{mathdesign}
15:57:28 <alise> i dislike bitstream fonts
15:57:49 <alise> TeX Gyre Schola or whatever they're calling it these days -- the New Century Schoolbook-based one -- worked okay
15:58:24 <Quadrescence> You dislike the fonts in the package I suggested?
15:58:57 <alise> Presumably [bitstream] is the Bitstream Vera fonts?
15:59:11 <alise> I haven't actually got mathdesign installed, it seems; I'll rectify that.
15:59:26 <alise> Quadrescence: Huh; I wonder which then.
15:59:39 <alise> Bitstream don't have any other Free with a capital E fonts afaik.
15:59:58 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Documents/ed$ aptitude search mathdesign
15:59:58 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Documents/ed$
16:00:11 <alise> ah bitstream charter
16:00:32 <alise> "Bitstream Charter is a typeface optimized for printing on the low-resolution 300 dpi laser printers of the 1980s." xP
16:00:47 <alise> blurgh; I need to isntall mathdesign now
16:01:02 <alise> just use the charter package
16:01:33 <alise> Quadrescence: unacceptable; doesn't have Greek
16:01:48 <alise> ERROR: I can't find file `grmn1200'. -- oh, do I need to delete the .aux crap?
16:01:53 <fizzie> texlive-fonts-extra in ubuntu has mathdesign.sty.
16:02:09 <alise> I use Greek for exactly one letter, heh:
16:02:15 <alise> "I was expecting orange light to fall across us as
16:02:15 <alise> we arrived in the {\greektext e}Eri system at a relative speed small
16:02:15 <alise> enough to make it appear that we were at a standstill."
16:02:35 <alise> Quadrescence: well, it certainly isn't telling me it has greek
16:02:40 <alise> even after rming the aux files
16:03:18 <Quadrescence> Well remove the \greekletter crap right now then which is probably specific to the minion package anyway
16:04:03 <alise> Quadrescence: no it is not
16:04:06 <alise> it is the babel package
16:04:14 <alise> which is the standard way to do these things ...
16:04:43 <alise> you don't now of babel, really?
16:06:27 <alise> Quadrescence: what latex font do you think is the most similar to georgia?
16:06:32 <alise> that's the original typeface the text was set in
16:08:10 <alise> I swear: none of these have Greek.
16:08:21 <alise> Maybe math-mode Greek, but not actual-text Greek.
16:08:47 <alise> TeX Gyre Schola is better than New Century Schoolbook so tgschola > fouriernc
16:09:01 <alise> and it's a pretty close match, Georgia is just ... plumper and less serify. Damn, I need to learn the terminology.
16:10:27 <alise> georgia is designed for screen and, I dunno, I've never liked XeLaTeX much
16:11:07 <alise> ERROR: LaTeX Error: File `kerkis.sty' not found.
16:11:18 <alise> time to find what texlive package it's in; sigh
16:11:36 <alise> s/textssc/textsc/ btw if not using minion
16:12:16 <alise> ah, it's based on Bookman? skeptical, but ok
16:12:26 <alise> TeX Gyre Bonum is probably better
16:12:30 <alise> as far as Bookmans go
16:13:24 <alise> that capital E is /freaky/
16:13:53 <alise> Quadrescence: i'm going to try xelatex just to see
16:15:49 <alise> Quadrescence: Wow, \LaTeX looks fucked up in Georgia. The a is lowercase.
16:16:14 <alise> Well, XeLaTeX doesn't do \textsc properly, it seems; actually, wait ... does Georgia even have small caps?
16:17:11 <alise> Linux Libertine O looks nice ...
16:17:21 <alise> ...but nothing like Georgia :P
16:17:27 <alise> i nearly nearly give up
16:17:49 <alise> i love how many badnesses it complains about
16:19:06 <alise> Quadrescence: Maybe I'll just convert it to lout and become a hermit and bang sticks and rocks together to make runes.
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16:20:03 <alise> I wonder if TeX Gyre Pagella has less awful quote marks than URW Palatino.
16:22:33 <alise> Hehe, LuaTeX can't even load microtype.
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16:23:20 <alise> Quadrescence: wait, there's an opentype to t1 converter, isn't there?
16:23:35 <alise> maybe it only works for minion
16:23:47 <Quadrescence> If you're thinking about converting georgia to something usable with latex
16:24:06 <alise> base=$(basename "$font" .otf)
16:24:06 <alise> cfftot1 "$font" "pfb/$base.pfb"
16:24:06 <alise> t1dotlessj "pfb/$base.pfb" "pfb/${base}LCDFJ.pfb"
16:24:14 <alise> Quadrescence: why :D microtype support and the like?
16:24:39 <Quadrescence> minion could only be converted because someone spent a lot of time tweaking things, preparing fontinst files, and making a .sty file
16:25:14 <alise> maybe i should just email the author and ask him what he'd like it set in.
16:28:09 <alise> or just forget about it and set his new novel but i'd have to read it first
16:28:12 <alise> or just give up on typesetting
16:28:14 <alise> and become a hermit
16:28:20 <alise> yeah. let's go with that one
16:35:25 <alise> brb: rebooting into windows to see if it can handle HD
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18:59:50 <alise> Well, Windows can decode a "900p" Blu-Ray rip and have it almost synched up with the audio.
19:00:00 <alise> I conclude that Linux audio still suuuuuuuuuuucks shiiiiiit
19:00:16 <pikhq> I can only conclude that good God Ubuntu sucks at audio.
19:00:35 <pikhq> I use the *default settings* for ALSA and it just plain works.
19:00:35 <alise> On a more positive note, thx coppro for making me decide to, uh, obtain Stargate Universe.
19:00:46 <alise> If Air pts. 1 and 2 are anything to go by it's gonna be good.
19:01:29 <alise> Unfortunately the Blu-Ray rip only has up to episode 10; apparently the season was released in two halves, both the price of a regular season (!) on Blu-Ray. So that sucks; I can't find the second half in such quality.
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19:02:48 <pikhq> alise: SyFy tends to air seasons in two parts.
19:02:59 <pikhq> The second part of the season only finished a few weeks ago.
19:03:25 <alise> Oh, so that thing I saw on Sky marked as the "finale" was actually the finale of the first half? Interesting.
19:03:34 <alise> The two releases are marked "1.0" and "1.5", which is a bit strange, but there you go.
19:03:50 <alise> Alright then; now if only the 1080p 37" TV was in /here/. And I had a machine that can decode it with _perfect_ AV sync.
19:03:55 <Gregor> Yup, that's a very SCI-FI CHANNEL (not "SyFy" bleh) thing to do.
19:04:06 <alise> I pronounce Syfy as "Siffy" to protest the rename.
19:04:19 <alise> "...new, to Sci-Fi." "You mean 'Siffy'."
19:04:44 <Gregor> Or "siffih". So it's awkward to pronounce.
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19:05:51 <alise> pikhq: Apparently "1.5" was released in July.
19:06:00 <alise> A few few weeks ago.
19:06:29 <pikhq> Should be able to find HD TV dumps; not a Blu-Ray rip yet.
19:06:39 <alise> In Blu-Ray "Region B" (??) the full-season Blu-Ray came out in July too. Region A has to wait until 2011, but they got 1.0 and 1.5, while region B didn't.
19:07:05 <alise> My anal file-naming scheme has come under attack by the evil creators of Stargate Universe.
19:07:05 <AnMaster> hm, where is oerjan when you need him
19:07:21 <alise> "1.11.2 ???.mkv" (Yes, that is an en-dash.)
19:07:35 <alise> It's two separate episodes, "Air (Part 1)" and "Air (Part 2)", but aired as one continuous one.
19:07:40 <alise> Usually, I would just title it "Air".
19:07:48 <alise> But there's a part 3 which was aired /after/ these.
19:07:53 <AnMaster> alise, yeah, for me the plain alsa with no pulseaudio just works. Even on computers with stuff like Intel HDA instead of my sb live card
19:08:02 <AnMaster> pulseaudio is what causes issues IME
19:08:03 <alise> AnMaster: ALSA had the AV sync problems just as badly.
19:08:12 <alise> I'm going to try OSSv4, then hang myself.
19:08:24 <AnMaster> alise, that I never had... Weird latency issues I guess
19:08:41 <AnMaster> btw, I ate some fun food today.
19:09:33 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punsch-roll <-- this very Swedish pastry is as noted in the article called "vacuum cleaner" here. Well, they had an extra long version at a café I visited today... Guess what they called it?
19:09:35 <alise> "Fun"; that is some definition of fun, "hissing cockroaches".
19:09:45 <alise> AnMaster: Black hole?
19:09:53 <AnMaster> http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/central_vacuum_cleaner.jpg
19:10:00 <pikhq> alise: Clearly Ubuntu managed to fucking break ALSA.
19:10:04 <alise> AnMaster: That's not... hilarious.
19:10:07 <AnMaster> yes doggy bag next to it. It was a bit too large.
19:10:14 <AnMaster> alise, I said fun, not hilarious
19:10:23 <alise> pikhq: You know, I don't think the _entire_ blame lies on Ubuntu's shoulders.
19:10:30 <AnMaster> alise, plus, Swedish humour. It exists but is incompatible with you.
19:10:37 <alise> They may be slightly incompetent, but you gotta admit, Linux audio isn't known to be very worky.
19:10:58 <pikhq> alise: Here's the thing: *I have yet to have issues with Linux audio*.
19:11:06 <coppro> like getting pulseaudio and timidity to work together
19:11:18 <calamari> alise: I only ever had problems when pulse came out
19:11:19 <alise> coppro: Here, YOU'RE the Stargate expert (Sgeo doesn't count), YOU name my file. (This is the most important thing.)
19:11:24 <alise> pikhq: Good hardware. Good luck.
19:11:25 <pikhq> On Linux 2.2, 2.4, and 2.6. OSS, pre-in-kernel ALSA, 2.6 ALSA.
19:11:27 <AnMaster> anyway, I can strongly recommend that café for anyone in Sweden that happens to pass by the town of Vara (located along E20 between Göteborg and Stockholm).
19:11:36 <pikhq> And I've used it on a *lot* of hardware.
19:11:41 <calamari> anot sure what was so wrong with oss or alsa
19:11:50 <alise> calamari: nothing at all.
19:11:56 <coppro> alise: call that one Vacuum and the other one Air :P
19:11:59 <alise> Just nothing that could be fixed with a new sound server above them.
19:11:59 <pikhq> I just haven't used any of the freaking bizarre audio abstraction layers...
19:12:14 <pikhq> Well, unless you count arts, which KDE 3 demanded.
19:12:23 <coppro> alise: the first parts are more about a lack of air :P
19:12:25 <alise> I think I'll go with "1.11.2 Air (Parts 1 & 2)", but I'll FEEL BAD ABOUT IT.
19:12:43 <alise> coppro: Gee, just go and spoil it; I was expecting them to suffocate and the rest of the series just to be footage of dead people.
19:13:01 <alise> Or colonise the planet and live peacefully with a few minor incidents, as they try to come to terms with their loneliness.
19:13:19 <coppro> SGU actually has significant attrition :)
19:13:55 <alise> Remind me not to talk to you about anything I haven't finished watching/reading/etc. yet. :)
19:14:01 <coppro> SPOILERS: Destiny's destination is an alternate earth, where they will pick up more people and then leave again
19:14:14 <alise> Please tell me you /are/ joking.
19:14:19 <AnMaster> <pikhq> alise: Here's the thing: *I have yet to have issues with Linux audio*. <-- the only issues I had so far has been with pulseaudio or jack. The latter is mostly my own fault for even trying to use that. Of course it works very well once it's set up. But the problem is that, setting it up.
19:14:37 <AnMaster> with pulseaudio.... well I wouldn't know where to start with describing the problems
19:14:39 <alise> coppro: I hate you, because now I have to look it up.
19:14:58 <alise> coppro: Hyperventilation over!
19:15:15 <pikhq> Adding abstraction servers to Linux audio is an absolutely retarded idea.
19:15:19 <pikhq> Why do people love doing it?
19:15:40 <coppro> because they can't think of any other ideas that sound so good but are really so bad
19:15:53 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:15:54 <zzo38> \expandafter\forth\input
19:16:22 <pikhq> Would it kill them to just make the audio interface *work well*?
19:16:49 <alise> Elaborate justification for "1.11.2 Air (Parts 1 & 2)": En-dash to separate range is the Right Way to do things; series number must be included since it sometimes differs e.g. Voyager's "Unimatrix Zero"; the episodes are billed (Part N) for N in 1,2,3; there are two parts, and we should not insert "and" because it is more metasyntactic punctuation than actually part of the title.
19:16:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, just use dmix in case of lack of hardware mixing (which is the case for most hardware these days)
19:17:10 <alise> Oh snap, no, that would actually *work!*
19:17:22 <pikhq> Even ALSA, which *is* the audio interface for most Linux systems, has trouble with this...
19:17:25 <alise> zzo38: You're really writing ForthTeX?
19:17:36 <alise> pikhq: Tried OSSv4? You'll like it.
19:17:38 <pikhq> Why the HELL should you need a user library to just make the freaking audio interface work at all?
19:17:39 <alise> Did I mention OSSv4?
19:17:41 <AnMaster> alise, well, it's more work, and it would probably not work out of box, unless it provides alsa compatible APIs
19:17:49 <alise> AnMaster: It does.
19:17:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: There's nothing that does not support OSS.
19:18:00 <alise> AnMaster: In fact, you can also make libalsa /output to OSS/.
19:18:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, alsamixer? (sorry, bad joke)
19:18:11 <alise> AnMaster: Seriously. That's 100% compatibility.
19:18:14 <pikhq> Because OSS is the audio interface on all *other* UNIX systems.
19:18:19 <alise> Or you can use the slightly-worse OSSv4 fake libalsa.
19:18:22 <zzo38> alise: No, I am not writing ForthTeX. It is just something I thought about while sleeping yesterday
19:18:35 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, for me as it happens, alsa actually works well. Both on desktop and laptop
19:18:37 <pikhq> alise: Tempting, but ALSA "just works" here.
19:18:47 <AnMaster> no clue why, it's just the way it is
19:18:48 <alise> pikhq: Dude, you use Gentoo. You _have_ to break things on a regular basis.
19:19:05 <pikhq> alise: Things don't break here.
19:19:26 <pikhq> (okay, actually, I manage to break X every now and then.)
19:19:55 <AnMaster> indeed, things didn't break on Gentoo. I think I had to report way more bugs under ubuntu so far than on gentoo. And I used gentoo for like 5-6 years. Ubuntu for about one
19:20:01 <alise> zzo38: Perhaps instead of {...} pushing a "formatting stack", it could instead push a code block/quotation a la Joy. Then \sf would mean "sans-serif for the rest of the 'program'", where "program" is like a scope; i.e. it'd end after you finish executing the {...}.
19:20:13 <alise> Although perhaps the pushing-a-formatting-stack would be a saner idea.
19:20:16 <AnMaster> arch I think is lowest but I used that less on non-servers than either of the other
19:20:21 <alise> Not that ForthTeX is a sane idea in the first place.
19:20:23 <zzo38> But this might work: \forth ' [TEX] ASSIGN-GULLET unforth [TEX] \def\inputforth#1{\forth\input #1 \unforth}
19:20:31 <zzo38> (But I don't know about this way either)
19:20:33 <AnMaster> only like half a year on main desktop
19:20:44 <alise> zzo38: That's the boring way, though. It should be a Forth integrated into the TeX, not TeX with Forth support.
19:20:46 <pikhq> Somehow, Gentoo is a reasonably stable system. Something that appears to have a bleeding-edge philosophy.
19:20:54 <zzo38> Yes, of course it is not sane idea.....
19:21:05 <AnMaster> alise, so yeah, gentoo's issue is actually the compile time. It _breaks_ less than other distros IME
19:21:15 <alise> AnMaster: It's Gentoo's /users/ that break it.
19:21:41 <zzo38> WE ARE INSANITY!!!!!!
19:21:50 <AnMaster> alise, like those with insane CFLAGS. But well... I only know one such user, and he started using sane cflags later on
19:21:56 <alise> zzo38: You could use {...} as strings that way, too.
19:22:04 <alise> {sansserif} \fontname
19:22:48 <AnMaster> would forthtex be like luatex? Or would it use a separate syntax? Or is it something like literal forth programming?
19:23:01 <zzo38> I don't think such things can work unless it is entirely remade such that it is not TeX anymore
19:23:06 <alise> ForthTeX wouldn't really be TeX at all.
19:23:14 <zzo38> But using \forth to switch works better in my opinion
19:23:19 <alise> In my view, "\foo" would be execute-Forth-word-foo.
19:23:26 <alise> Normal words would just be "text" typeset.
19:23:31 <AnMaster> well, there is an issue there. If you don't pass some test suite, iirc Knuth gets angry about you using the name TeX
19:23:34 <alise> { would push a new "formatting stack"
19:23:50 <alise> so \sf would say, change the font to sans-serif
19:23:51 <alise> on the top formatting stack
19:23:52 <AnMaster> not sure if it is a registered trademark or such, if it is, you would need to follow it
19:23:55 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, exactly, and it is also something I agree with as well, even if Knuth doesn't get angry
19:24:01 <alise> AnMaster: It's just a codename :P
19:24:08 <alise> It was more like TeX when I thought of it...
19:24:20 <alise> \def \ForthTeX {\sf FORTH}\TeX \end
19:24:32 <alise> So \def would read a word, and get \ForthTeX back.
19:24:37 <alise> Start defining just like Forth...
19:24:57 <zzo38> Yes, that is like Forth, but then it wouldn't be TeX
19:24:58 <alise> Then we have the \pushfmt instruction, the \sf instruction, the "FORTH" text, the \popfmt instruction, the \TeX instruction, and we stop.
19:25:16 <alise> The "FORTH" text would be handled like numbers in Forth; "TEXT" instruction followed by the text, just like "2" -> "LITERAL 2" or whatever.
19:25:21 <alise> zzo38: Fine; FORTHSeT.
19:26:04 <alise> You could have a command ending with {, actually.
19:26:14 <alise> \def \boldblock {\bf \end
19:26:20 <alise> \boldblock LOL BOLD}
19:26:28 <alise> Since { and } would just be sugar for \pushfmt and \popfmt...
19:27:59 <zzo38> My idea using \forth to switch, it has something like LuaTeX, but not quite, because TeX doesn't even see your Forth program, it is just switched, instead of using TeX's eyes/mouth/body you use the Forth and then it go back after, so you would define a Forth code in outer usually, and integrate it using ASSIGN-GULLET and so on
19:28:20 <zzo38> As well possibly as other commands such as TEX-PARSE TEX-SEND-TOKEN and so on
19:28:56 <zzo38> alise: Yes your way, can be called ForthSeT, it might work
19:31:58 <zzo38> But I never modified TeX (although I have read parts of the TeX source codes to clarify things), I wrote PipeTeX, which should be workable using any version of TeX, without having to modify each one.
19:32:25 <alise> Someone recommend me a Linux distro to toy around with that isn't Gentoo or Arch.
19:32:33 <alise> Ubuntu has officially reached my Ultimately Annoyed state.
19:32:37 <zzo38> (The logo for PipeTeX isn't as complicated as things like LaTeX and AMS-TeX and so on, just {Pipe\TeX})
19:32:46 <zzo38> alise: Linux-From-Scratch
19:33:05 <zzo38> alise: Linux-From-UnScratch
19:33:16 <alise> {\sf FORTH}\TeX: the only logo that matters!
19:37:20 <zzo38> Does such a thing as Linux-From-Unscratch exist?
19:39:41 <zzo38> Some people say that literate programming forces you to document your program and therefore write a better code, but that isn't true at all. What it does do, however, is it makes it much easier to document your code!
19:40:45 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:41:23 <oerjan> <AnMaster> hm, where is oerjan when you need him
19:41:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh yeah. Interesting turn of events in IWC eh?
19:42:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, it raises a lot of questions though
19:42:35 <zzo38> coppro: Not like that, though. Not like typing "// assign 4 to i", that is clear by the printout might be something like "i <-- 4" you can already see it assigns 4 to i
19:42:57 <oerjan> like why the heck has shakespeare not given any indication of being from the past before
19:45:10 <oerjan> also i'm not sure i _like_ this idea of explaining things "rationally" this way, it takes away the mystery. in fact that was one of the things i didn't like about the end of the Ed stories
19:46:15 <alise> Yes, but... that's because you're you. No offence.
19:46:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/20100805_001-009.jpg http://zem.fi/~fis/20100806_001-007.jpg
19:46:38 <alise> The word for a random, unexplained thread that holds the whole story together without any apparent justification is a "plot hole".
19:46:50 <oerjan> (it became serious and logical rather than crazy and whimsical)
19:47:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay, on hotel wlan. Will take ages to load
19:47:11 <alise> it became that since Be Here Now
19:47:17 <AnMaster> would take some pics through the window, except it is fairly boring
19:47:20 -!- tombom has joined.
19:47:22 <oerjan> now which one was that
19:47:28 <alise> oerjan: the /first long story/
19:47:38 <alise> if it wasn't serious by Be Here Now, it definitely was by Spacd
19:47:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, is that like .fi dreamhack or such?
19:47:49 <fizzie> AnMaster: There are _small.jpg variants, but...
19:47:50 <oerjan> alise: thank you for an answer that gives my memory absolutely nothing to remember it by
19:48:07 <alise> oerjan: Be Here Now -- time travelling, Kerrig mountain facility
19:48:08 <zzo38> But a literate programming system contains features that can be useful regardless of the amount of documentation you are including, such as the index and table of contents, and code chunks.....
19:48:19 <alise> Spacd -- whoops Epsilon Eridriani doesn't exist
19:48:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't remember what DreamHack is; gaming or demoscene?
19:49:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, this used to be a demoscene event. Nowadays it's a hybrid sort of thing.
19:49:37 <oerjan> oh well, anyhow i liked the whimsical ones best
19:49:41 <zzo38> In the PipeTeX codes, I don't think I need to document every section, some should be self-explanatory, and I don't need to document it as m much as some people do, but there is still some missing, which I can add in the next version
19:49:55 <alise> oerjan: ok, so let's say Spacd, since Be Here Now isn't that serious. it's lighthearted, but not the same sort of jokey story that the short stories are at the start, when setting the stage in the first two paragraphs. after that, it's serious (the raretl ivehf)
19:50:16 <pikhq> alise: Y'know what else would be nice? A short story collection containing of qntm.org
19:50:21 <alise> the opening stories haven't got much substance really and are really stage-setters
19:50:25 <alise> *really just stage-setters
19:50:32 <alise> Be Here Now is short compared to the others
19:50:46 <alise> so really, the Ed stories are serious for a majority of their length
19:51:17 <alise> Also, I can't use Slack. Actually I'm not sure what I can use: I need a recent kernel to support my Ethernet.
19:51:25 <pikhq> alise: All the short stories on qntm that aren't part of a story.
19:51:27 <alise> The last Ubuntu didn't support the card.
19:51:34 <zzo38> alise: Then upgrade the kernel.
19:51:41 <pikhq> Typeset as a single volume?
19:51:43 <alise> zzo38: Can't do that without internet.
19:51:49 <alise> pikhq: I'd like to finish the Ed stories, first.
19:52:00 <zzo38> alise: Can't you do it with a DVD, or something like that?
19:52:04 <alise> pikhq: And that includes Free, Standing as an epilogue.
19:52:08 <alise> zzo38: No optical drive.
19:52:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay, took some (free hand) pics
19:52:16 <alise> pikhq: The next Sam Hughes thing I'm likely to typeset is Fine Structure, but I'll have to read it first.
19:52:18 <zzo38> alise: Can you use USB?
19:52:26 <alise> zzo38: Yes. But at that point I get too bored.
19:52:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'll see if I can do anything usable with it
19:52:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw those images were not panos right?
19:52:38 <alise> 05:18:04 <augur> you're only allowed to use alise's haskell on pro-GNOME operating systems.
19:52:38 <oerjan> ok then but something changed in tone when the andromedans got introduced.
19:53:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, the dark one looks much more like fish eye
19:53:33 <alise> oerjan: that's hardly the ending though. anyway what would you have preferred, he having destroyed Andromeda and nothing coming of it? what would be the point of that having happened, then?
19:53:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: 9 and 7 pics; taken with the phone, can't really switch lenses on that one. (Well, maybe with some sort of adapter.)
19:53:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, this is going to be my real camera
19:54:05 <AnMaster> I'll transfer it in a few seconds
19:54:19 <AnMaster> and see if I can make a pano out of it
19:54:22 <pikhq> alise: Perhaps Tyro?
19:54:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm here with the N900 (64k compo is about to start in 7 minutes), so I won't probably even try to look at any large images before I get out.
19:54:59 <alise> pikhq: I started reading Tyro and concluded Sam was right, it's crap writing.
19:55:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'll scale them down. I'm on bad wlan
19:55:21 <pikhq> I quite like the concept. But yeah, Sam has definitely improved.
19:55:37 <alise> pikhq: The Fourth-And-A-Halfth Planet I would do something with if I understood it one damn bit.
19:55:38 <AnMaster> Bit Rate=24 Mb/s Tx-Power=15 dBm
19:55:41 <AnMaster> Link Quality=38/70 Signal level=-72 dBm
19:55:48 <fizzie> In other news, huge amount (over 15) of 4k entries this year here.
19:55:56 <pikhq> Oh God I love that one.
19:56:15 <fizzie> AnMaster: WLAN here is so bad, I'm just using this 384k 3G.
19:56:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't the n900 supports more than that?
19:56:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, besides all those computers down the stairs look like they use ethernet
19:57:15 <fizzie> Yes, but I'd need to pay more for using more than that. :p
19:57:24 <alise> 08:39:21 <cpressey> I'm trying to read the source for Epigram (literate Haskell). I should probably stop because I don't know enough about type theory to tell when they're joking or not.
19:57:24 <alise> That's just Conor.
19:57:31 <alise> Sit back and enjoy the ride; not even he knows.
19:57:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, this wlan is free when you have a hotel room
19:57:46 <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf, for anyone who wants to gawp.
19:58:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: The wlan here is free, but it's too sucky to use.
19:58:18 <AnMaster> considering user/pw I very much doubt they could prevent someone over the street from using it...
19:58:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: I just meant that 3G speeds >384k would mean a more costly mobile subscription thing.
19:59:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway it will be below my usual standard... ISO400
20:00:16 <alise> 09:47:25 <AnMaster> and I noticed yesterday that it didn't like "movie"
20:00:16 <alise> in en-GB it is "film".
20:00:18 <fizzie> Everyone with a computer place (and the associated ethernet switch port) is supposed to be using it, but there's still overcrowding, and I guess they just don't pay that much attention to the wlan.
20:00:24 <alise> "movie" is en-usism
20:01:09 <alise> 09:52:00 <cpressey> Fine, DOCTOR WHO. Anyway, I've noticed that happens a lot -- you learn a word, then suddenly hear it used. It's probably some kind of psychological trick, like, you heard the word before, but you didn't know what it meant, so you didn't retain the memory the same way.
20:01:10 <AnMaster> alise, hm, most UK people I know use movie too
20:01:31 <alise> AnMaster: they probably say "gonna" at least occasionally IRL too.
20:01:37 <alise> it's called osmosis
20:01:57 <AnMaster> alise, but I strongly suspect this dict is based on something like a too-old-to-be-copyrighted word list + some new stuff added in.
20:02:28 <AnMaster> which I noticed before but I can't recall right atm
20:03:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Factual data cannot be copyrighted, though a specific presentation can be.
20:04:11 <oerjan> pikhq: compilation copyright?
20:05:17 <alise> 10:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't eat kittens‽ Even ones that aren't my pet?
20:05:40 <alise> 10:56:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, now my kitten has died of terminal stupidity.
20:06:06 <oerjan> Eating kittens is just plain wrong! And no one should do it! EVER!
20:06:53 <alise> http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lex5sz.jpg
20:06:57 * oerjan continues the tradition of quoting quotes without having seen the original
20:10:15 <alise> pikhq: How good is Slack's driver support?
20:12:46 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:14:44 <alise> Does FreeBSD have a livecd these days?
20:15:20 -!- RoxFox64 has joined.
20:15:34 <calamari> alise: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=freebsd+livecd
20:15:49 <RoxFox64> Anyone here still using befunge?
20:16:06 <fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
20:16:34 <alise> `addquote <fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
20:16:35 <fungot> alise: he was lounging in a chair surrounded by scrolls and scraps of paper. it had worked. he'd always been aware of it?
20:16:46 <alise> "it was fragrant with the scent of abomination."; new favourite quote.
20:16:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
20:17:07 <HackEgo> 207|<fungot> pikhq: it was fragrant with the scent of abomination. hear a speech declaring a holy war, is the man insane? some idiot missionary gets himself killed, some man writes some gibberish about the shape of a dragon, wonse?"
20:17:58 <calamari> btw, is it possible to have a remote swap file, or does linux prevent it?
20:18:13 <alise> calamari: well, it's a swap partition. so, yes, like this:
20:18:21 <alise> use NFS to mount the remote host.
20:18:28 <alise> have a "foo" file on it.
20:18:32 <alise> mount -t swap -o loop foo
20:18:35 <alise> or however you mount swap these days
20:18:40 <RoxFox64> alise: Sweet. I managed to find small(But, old) interpreter that turns befunge to c. Then I made a script for linux, and a batch for windows to compile it, run it and dispose of it.
20:18:51 <alise> RoxFox64: It doesn't turn Befunge into C.
20:18:57 <alise> It bundles Befunge code with an interpreter.
20:19:34 <calamari> alise: thanks I was trying to use mkswap and swapon.. maybe mount -t swap is what I needed
20:20:07 <RoxFox64> alise: I haven't bothered to look through the source fully. I just know it generates a c source.
20:20:27 <RoxFox64> I just wish I were more creative
20:20:44 <RoxFox64> I'd be able to make some complex stuff
20:20:59 <alise> calamari: I don't think mount -t swap actually works.
20:21:05 <alise> [["We caused that asteroid belt, four and a half billion years ago," said James. "It was going to condense into a planet called Earth, which was going to become our home planet when we eventually evolved on it. But we went back in time and blew it up."
20:21:06 <alise> Chay nodded sagely. "Why?"]]
20:21:07 <RoxFox64> Heck, I'd use Befunge for something like ASCII if I were
20:22:53 <alise> pikhq: How long does a Gentoo install last these days/
20:22:57 <alise> RoxFox64: "something like ascii"?
20:24:41 * RoxFox64 should make a befunge IDE of sorts
20:25:23 <Sgeo> I love Smalltalk, but I absolutely despise smalltalk.org
20:25:27 <RoxFox64> Only thing I'd really have to do is make a text editor that forced insert mode on a row of spaces though.
20:26:35 <pikhq> alise: Day or two?
20:26:46 <alise> pikhq: I thought the compile-everything installs were deprecated.
20:26:50 <AnMaster> ah... auto exposure... how could I forget. Well too dark outside now to correct this
20:27:14 <alise> Sgeo: I've never heard of smalltalk.org. Ignore it.
20:27:17 <pikhq> alise: This is counting a complex desktop environment such as KDE or Gnome.
20:27:20 <alise> AnMaster: How long is a Gentoo install!
20:27:26 <pikhq> alise: It's quite a bit less time if you have lesser needs.
20:27:40 <alise> Ah fuck it, why does stuff suck so much.
20:27:51 <pikhq> Perhaps an hour or two for one's initial install getting to a base, bootable system.
20:27:54 <alise> Blah blah whine moan.
20:28:00 <alise> pikhq: Okay. So how is Slack's driver support?
20:28:08 <AnMaster> <alise> AnMaster: How long is a Gentoo install! <-- on what system?
20:28:09 <pikhq> alise: Should be "reasonable".
20:28:11 <calamari> alsie, sorry, the matrix has you
20:28:33 <Sgeo> In a way it's a ironicly funny and twisted sorry state that those that promote the "safety of typed systems" and "additional capabilities of typed systems" also are promoting the "barren space devoid of the richness of runtime meta data".
20:28:36 <pikhq> It won't have proprietary drivers by default but it should have pretty much of Linux's supported drivers.
20:28:37 <AnMaster> alise, are we talking about a dual-cpu system consisting of quad core xeon i7?
20:28:40 <Sgeo> ^^from that site, not from me
20:29:03 <Sgeo> Are they utterly unaware that many statically typed languages (including C#) have metadata?
20:29:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: Non-static polymorphism kinda requires it.
20:29:50 <alise> pikhq: Ubuntu's last release lacked my Ethernet driver. The current one has it.
20:29:52 <alise> Does Slack have it?
20:30:03 <pikhq> (where "static polymorphism" is C++ templates)
20:30:06 <alise> AnMaster: It's fast enough.
20:30:20 <alise> pikhq: It's ... Archos, I think.
20:33:36 <alise> The issue with the "spartan" distros is that I assemble the "perfect environment" then it ends up irritating me for no apparent reason. I don't know why. I'm strange.
20:34:55 <AnMaster> here is a reduced size version: http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/hotel_window_small.jpg
20:36:21 <alise> pikhq: Diagnose me. :P
20:37:11 <pikhq> alise: You must write an OS.
20:37:39 <Sgeo> His own OS will end up irritating him!
20:37:48 <calamari> write an os where everything is a dependency
20:38:07 <Sgeo> Far worse than the "perfect environment", imagine the scale of a "perfect os"'s irrittation
20:38:13 <Sgeo> Why is my a key broken?
20:38:26 <alise> pikhq: That isn't a diagnosis.
20:39:04 <pikhq> alise: No, it's a prescription.
20:39:12 <alise> pikhq: For what illness?
20:39:27 <pikhq> alise: NIH Syndrome.
20:39:45 <alise> pikhq: I know I have /that/; what's /this/ illness?
20:39:49 <alise> Also, how much does KDE4 suck?
20:40:21 <calamari> alise: well it made me go back to gnome, does tha help? lol
20:40:32 <AnMaster> alise, actually this current one is exactly NIH
20:40:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, full size at http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/hotel_window.jpg
20:41:29 <alise> calamari: yeah but that's /gnome/
20:41:42 <calamari> AnMaster: did you use a program to stitch that?
20:42:07 <AnMaster> calamari, no, I looked at the tif images then wrote a new one in a hex editor
20:42:14 <AnMaster> calamari, of course I used one.
20:42:22 <AnMaster> hugin, same as fizzie used for his picture above
20:42:41 <AnMaster> calamari, that is http://zem.fi/~fis/20100805_001-009.jpg
20:42:49 <AnMaster> and http://zem.fi/~fis/20100806_001-007.jpg
20:43:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: Even the reduced-size version isn't very phone-friendly; but I guess it's okay for this half-a-gig-of-RAM iBook.
20:43:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm on my 4GB of RAM thinkpad atm
20:43:53 <calamari> okay I guess I'll ask fizzie when he gets back
20:44:11 <fizzie> I used to have 1.25G of RAM in this, but I donated a gigabyte away.
20:44:27 <alise> Okay, someone name something other than Arch in a few minutes, or the kitty gets it.
20:44:35 <calamari> fizzie: what stitching program are you using?
20:44:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: I got a .25 back for the 1 I gave away.
20:44:50 <fizzie> calamari: The same as AnMaster. :p
20:44:53 <AnMaster> calamari, anyway I told you the app above. hugin
20:44:54 <fizzie> calamari: (That is, Hugin.)
20:45:18 -!- RoxFox64 has left (?).
20:45:35 <AnMaster> calamari, it was right at the start of this line: <AnMaster> hugin, same as fizzie used for his picture above
20:45:46 <calamari> yeah I thought that was some kind of insult
20:45:59 <fizzie> calamari: "You're such a hugin!"
20:46:04 <calamari> you were being weird so I figured you didn't want to tell me lol
20:46:15 <alise> The kitty is about to get it.
20:46:29 <AnMaster> calamari, no, I just thought it was obvious you can't do that without a program
20:46:37 <AnMaster> I mean, you need to do lots of corrections
20:46:49 <calamari> AnMaster: I've done it with the gimp
20:47:00 <fizzie> If you have a real, calibrated panorama-head, you can sort-of do it with just regular image-processing tools.
20:47:09 <AnMaster> calamari, I mean, I get a horrible stitch if I don't optimise the various lens distortion parameters
20:47:21 <AnMaster> but then that is taken at most zoomed out setting
20:47:24 <alise> You're all responsible for a feline's death.
20:47:40 <AnMaster> calamari, anyway with gimp you will likely get a very bad match
20:47:54 <alise> JFS! JFS roolz, other filesystems droolz.
20:47:56 <calamari> yeah my results weren't very good
20:48:15 <calamari> that's why I was either going to be very impressed or want to know what program you used.. anyhow.. lol
20:48:20 <fizzie> Also, there were only 6 64k entries; it tends to oscillate.
20:49:05 <fizzie> Every other year there's a whole bunch of great 64k's and very few 4k's; and then the opposite for the next year.
20:49:29 <alise> I'm a doctor, and I killed a kitten!
20:49:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, any known reason for it?
20:50:22 <alise> You are all completely oblivious to my afriddiliminosik.
20:50:30 <fizzie> Possibly it's because people think "oh, there were so few Xk entries this year, maybe I'll write one for the next year, since it'll be easier to win".
20:50:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, so the best strategy would be to go for the other one?
20:51:07 <AnMaster> the one with many entries last year
20:51:23 <fizzie> Possibly, though it's by no means an exact rule, just a tendency.
20:51:27 <calamari> right so definitely go for 4k next year
20:51:32 <alise> anyone know my postcode? i need it
20:52:05 <fizzie> Also it seems that doing oldskool entries is reasonably safe, since the amount of those has been declining for the last few years; this time there were only 4 oldskool demo entries.
20:53:19 <alise> the nice thing with 4k demos is that there are only so many ones that exist; you can rule out all of the ones that already exist, since you won't want to copy them
20:53:31 <alise> meaning that you have a pretty good chance to hit on a good demo vs a bad one, vs a bigger file size!
20:53:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, why not make a 4k one and then submit it to both, but pad it with 60k for the 64k one?
20:54:17 <fizzie> Generally you'd need to have a bit more content in a 64k entry. But you could possibly do a 4k, and then an "extended edition" 64k.
20:54:36 <AnMaster> hm yeah that sounds like a good idea
20:55:10 <alise> Damn UNetbootin, you crazy.
20:55:35 <fizzie> It's a bit gaming-the-rules thing; I'm not sure if they have anything explicitly against it, though. And it *is* common to do stuff like using the same C64 picture both as an entry in the graphics compo and as a part of a C64 demo.
20:56:36 <alise> it can do crazy things.
20:56:53 <alise> like boot a Linux live CD and install it when all you have is a drive running windows, no optical or USB drives
20:58:16 <AnMaster> ah, not that hard assuming you can fit the cd image in memory
20:58:38 <AnMaster> (assuming you want to over-write windows)
20:59:10 <alise> AnMaster: not about memory
20:59:18 <alise> it unpacks a bootloader plus the squashfs file into C:\
20:59:26 <alise> adds a bootloader option into Windows' bootloader
20:59:33 <alise> that boots the bootloader from C:\
20:59:36 <alise> which then boots the squashfs
20:59:42 <alise> which then sees itself /and/ the windows partition
20:59:49 <AnMaster> alise, my solution would be to put ntfs-3g or such on the initramfs and then loop mount the iso
20:59:52 <alise> admittedly, you need a spare partition to install
21:00:02 <alise> AnMaster: how would you boot it in the first place?
21:00:08 <pikhq> alise: So, it's exploiting how live CDs work. Nice.
21:00:41 <AnMaster> alise, little known fact: bootloader of windows nt/xp and presumably later versions can chainload grub
21:00:49 <AnMaster> if you put grub in a file on the ntfs partition
21:00:59 <alise> AnMaster: yeah, um, that's what unetbootin does
21:01:01 <AnMaster> iirc you copy the mbr (perhaps some more)
21:01:06 <alise> except with syslinux i think iirc
21:01:08 <alise> since it's ntfs...
21:01:14 <AnMaster> alise, okay that works too, but I done it with grub
21:01:36 <fizzie> I've only done it with LILO; grub's some sort of newfangled nonsense!
21:03:20 <AnMaster> anyway, with tmpfs and then unmounting the iso and the ntfs-3g fs you could easily resize the windows partition from there, or even overwrite it. Of course... if something goes wrong, or you lose power... you are not going to like it
21:03:29 <alise> Now booting into Arch to see if it supports my Ethernet.
21:03:33 -!- alise has quit.
21:04:26 <AnMaster> I never heard of that being an issue... wlan yes
21:05:05 <fizzie> If it's something very new, there might be a bit of a lag for the supporting.
21:05:38 <fizzie> Or even just a new variant that switches PCI ids or some-such to make it not autodetektize correctly.
21:05:52 <fizzie> (That sort of stuff gets fixed real fast, of course.)
21:18:10 <Sgeo> "Smalltalk is based on the idea, that if you both want to define @, then you probably are defining it with the same semantics :)"
21:19:21 <AnMaster> well, that is the effect of that
21:24:36 <Sgeo> My objection (not as related to duck typing as AnMaster thinks) may be ended
21:25:18 <AnMaster> Sgeo, if it was your objection, why did you quote it?
21:25:48 <Sgeo> My problem wasn't that MyClass and YourClass might both define #something, it was that both my project and your project might define Object>>something
21:25:57 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I was quoting someone's response
21:26:31 <AnMaster> hm I can't say I know smalltalk. What does >> do?
21:27:27 <Sgeo> It doesn't do anything, it's just a convention to say, in the case of Object>>something, Object defines a method something
21:28:34 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:32:34 <Sgeo> aBag = Bag new. aBag add: ais523.
21:32:51 <Sgeo> aBag := Bag new. aBag add: ais523.
21:33:01 <Sgeo> The second one, not the first
21:33:02 <ais523> also, why are you trying to add me to a new bag?
21:33:47 <ais523> random fact: Feather's syntax is designed to resemble SmallTalk's as much as possible whilst meaning something completely different
21:35:35 <AnMaster> ais523, okay now post the details on that
21:35:54 <ais523> I haven't worked them out yet
21:35:57 <AnMaster> ais523, or is this just a joke at our expense? A DNF of esolangs
21:36:07 <ais523> DNF is actually a good comparison
21:36:16 <ais523> because it was being worked on right until the point where it was cancelled, apparently
21:36:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well, feather isn't cancelled is it?
21:37:20 <oerjan> it may have been cancelled already in the future
21:38:39 -!- alise has joined.
21:38:48 <alise> I was going to say something--
21:38:57 <alise> Linux really doesn't need swap if I have 4 GiB of RAM, right?
21:39:04 <alise> Or, if it does: why, and how much?
21:39:23 <Sgeo> aBag add: alise.
21:39:55 <alise> Sgeo: I wonder why they didn't call it a Set.
21:40:04 <Sgeo> alise, it has sets
21:40:07 <alise> Well, at least Sgeo is growing taste in languages.
21:40:18 <Sgeo> Bags can contain duplicates
21:40:20 <alise> ais523: any opinions on that swap thing? :-P
21:40:20 <AnMaster> <alise> Linux really doesn't need swap if I have 4 GiB of RAM, right? <-- do you want suspend to disk?
21:40:22 <ais523> the difference between a bag and a set is that bags contain duplicates
21:40:32 <ais523> alise: I don't know much about swapping
21:40:38 <alise> AnMaster: Well, not /especially/, but it would be quite nice ...
21:40:42 <alise> AnMaster: Can't it use my proper disk?
21:40:44 <ais523> but AnMaster's correct in that you need swap to be able to hibernate
21:40:51 <alise> ais523: Okay; firstly, why? secondly, why?
21:40:52 <AnMaster> alise, it uses swap for hibernate
21:40:54 <ais523> because the way it's implemented is by swapping everything out of memory, and then shutting down
21:41:03 <coppro> what is Sgeo working on now
21:41:03 <alise> And why can't it just swap out ... to disk?
21:41:06 <alise> As in, an existing program?
21:41:09 <alise> coppro: he's just learning Smalltalk.
21:41:11 <AnMaster> alise, what do you mean, to disk
21:41:15 <ais523> then when you load again, everything's in swap, and it swaps it out as it reads it
21:41:15 <alise> coppro: so the ladies will like him.
21:41:19 <alise> AnMaster: to my existing / partition
21:41:23 <AnMaster> alise, to disk, yes your swap partition on the disk
21:41:26 <alise> a specified partition with stuff on it already
21:41:37 <ais523> alise: presumably it would be a mess, because it would require unswapping everything immediately on boot
21:41:41 <ais523> or else leaving the file around
21:41:48 <alise> But existing OSes do this...
21:41:56 <ais523> I don't see any huge barriers to the concept, but it would be harder to implement, thus probably hasn't been
21:41:56 <alise> Okay, so, what, I should have four freaking gigs of swap?!
21:41:58 <AnMaster> alise, well I don't know if hibernate supports swap files, but you can use a file as swap, not really recommended due to slower performance
21:42:03 <AnMaster> still it needs to be fixed in size
21:42:18 <ais523> and it's fine for the swap to be smaller
21:42:24 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, how comes encrypted swap works?
21:42:26 <ais523> the hibernate just fails if you're using more memory at the time than you have swap
21:42:36 <ais523> AnMaster: it works just like normal swap, but encrypted..
21:42:42 <alise> Okay, anyone want to check if a swap file can be hibernated to?
21:42:48 <alise> Then you'd just do
21:42:52 <alise> [initiate swap file]
21:42:54 <AnMaster> ais523, means that the initramfs somehow gets the kernel to load from the right partition?
21:42:56 <alise> Then, post-hibernate:
21:43:01 <alise> [disable swap file]
21:43:02 <alise> [remove swap file]
21:43:07 <ais523> can you hot-disable a swap file?
21:43:15 <alise> ais523: Well, "swapoff"...
21:43:28 <ais523> hmm, in that case, incorporating swapoff into the hibernate routine would make sense
21:43:30 <ais523> (I didn't know it existed)
21:43:32 <alise> So /if/ you can hibernate to a swap file, that should work great. The question is, can you?
21:43:41 <alise> This is kind of important because JFS sort of sucks at resizing.
21:43:52 <alise> By "sort of sucks" I basically mean "it doesn't really support it at all".
21:44:19 <ais523> alise: http://wiki.debian.org/Hibernation/Hibernate_Without_Swap_Partition might be useful
21:44:22 <ais523> I have no idea how accurate it is
21:44:25 <alise> Arch has initialised my console to full 1366x768 resolution. It's quite bizarre.
21:44:31 <alise> ais523: I have even less of a web browser than you right now.
21:44:55 <ais523> it suggests making a lot of config changes to the way swapping works, and installing a package called "uswsusp"
21:45:00 <AnMaster> alise, hm, I found ext4 a reliable work horse. Sure, not the fastest one, or the one having most features, but very very solid.
21:45:22 <AnMaster> on a HA linux server I would probably go for ext4 on RAID6 or such
21:45:50 <ais523> there's also an Ubuntu bug report, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/252143
21:46:01 <alise> AnMaster: I didn't ask what filesystem to use.
21:46:03 <ais523> where they complain about the UI being incapable of realising that hibernation is possible even when it is, in a no-swapfile setup
21:46:12 <alise> JFS has the best disaster recovery of any production-ready Linux filesystem, btw.
21:46:12 <AnMaster> <alise> Arch has initialised my console to full 1366x768 resolution. It's quite bizarre. <-- you mean frame buffer?
21:46:16 <alise> (And the quickest recovery.)
21:46:19 <alise> AnMaster: I don't know; presumably.
21:46:22 <alise> AnMaster: Because it's only a console!
21:46:32 <alise> ``I love how fag quotes work properly with the default console fonts.''
21:46:35 <AnMaster> alise, um, almost every distro I used does that
21:46:53 <ais523> apparently WUBI used to use a hibernate-to-swapfile setup (due to not repartitioning anything)
21:47:02 <ais523> but it was buggy in some way the bug report doesn't explain
21:47:02 <alise> ais523: So, does it work properly?
21:47:07 <alise> Do I really give a damn?
21:47:34 <ais523> the implication I get is fast, but buggy in some distros
21:47:42 <alise> Right. Buggy I can handle; I'm using Arch.
21:47:45 <alise> Buggy, I am absolutely prepared for.
21:47:57 <alise> Now, ASIDE from hibernation, will I need swap with 4 GiBs of RAM?
21:48:02 <alise> No assuming ridiculous usecases, AnMaster.
21:48:18 <ais523> anyway, hibernate-to-file should work just fine in theory, even without additional setup
21:48:29 <ais523> and I suppose we can find out via experiment how it fails in practice
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21:48:43 <alise> AnMaster: I thought you would go all ``Well if you're reconfiguring the LHC, you'll need more...''
21:48:52 <AnMaster> alise, well, I don't know what is ridiculous to you. Presumably you don't stitch HDR panoramas. Which makes my thinkpad swap trash
21:48:58 <alise> ais523: Then I'll fill the rest of my disk.
21:49:04 <alise> AnMaster: 'Deed I don't.
21:49:15 <AnMaster> alise, compile ghc or open office?
21:49:26 <alise> AnMaster: GHC doesn't take much RAM to compile. I don't _want_ OpenOffice.
21:49:31 <alise> I compile GHC quite often; distros suck at it.
21:49:39 <alise> GHC is slow to compile, yes, but not hoggy.
21:49:50 <alise> I only have ~120 GiB of free disk, so saving 4 GiB will be nice.
21:49:52 <ais523> alise: out of interest, do you want any office software (AbiWord or Microsoft Word on WINE or whatever)?
21:49:56 <ais523> or are you happy without it?
21:49:56 <alise> No swap partition it is.
21:50:04 <AnMaster> that is quite ridiculous though
21:50:07 <Phantom_Hoover> What's wrong with the version of GHC in Ubuntu's repositories?
21:50:08 <alise> ais523: Ouch at the latter. AbiWord is ... acceptable, when I have to use it.
21:50:19 <ais523> AnMaster: why on earth would you be using more threads than 1.5 times the number of cores you have?
21:50:22 <alise> ais523: I generally either jot down stuff in a text file or use LaTeX. Or HTML.
21:50:31 <AnMaster> ais523, rounded upwards or downwards?
21:50:32 <ais523> the only reason you use more threads than the number of cores you have at all is a scheduler bug
21:50:35 <alise> ais523: Why on earth would you be using more threads than the number of cores you have? Because you're using a broken scheduler.
21:50:44 <alise> ais523: BTW, Con Kolivas' Brain Fuck Scheduler fixes that issue.
21:50:49 <alise> optimal performance is -j<cores>
21:50:51 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know; does it really matter?
21:50:59 <AnMaster> ais523, and no reason at all, unless they are somehow network IO bound or such, with latency being the main bottleneck
21:51:16 <AnMaster> so if you use NFS over IP over avian carrier I guess it might be reasonable
21:51:22 <pikhq> Hmm. I wonder how easy it is to get BFS on Gentoo.
21:51:36 <pikhq> Brain Fuck Scheduler.
21:51:59 <ais523> is -j1 fastest for a single-core with all schedulers?
21:52:00 <AnMaster> but hm, I notice no speed up with -j3 compared to -j2 on my thinkpad
21:52:10 <alise> "No separate /boot partition! No swap partition defined!" Arch, you complain so.
21:52:12 <pikhq> Use ck-sources instead of gentoo-sources
21:52:15 <AnMaster> -j2 compared to -j1 on my single core sempron 3300+ though...
21:52:22 <pikhq> Adds Con Kolivas's patchset to the Gentoo patchset.
21:52:29 <alise> pikhq: You might want to look at the Zen kernel too.
21:52:31 * pikhq shall do that after this torrent finishes
21:52:33 <alise> pikhq: It adds TuxOnIce, BFS, etc.
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21:52:38 <alise> pikhq: Maybe just ck is fine though.
21:52:44 <pikhq> alise: Mmm, zen-sources may be nice.
21:52:48 <ais523> hmm, using an unusually high -j value would be nice if the make was X-bound for a huge bunch of different Xs in different components
21:52:53 <alise> Isn't it weird, a 1.3 GHz CPU with 4 GiBs of RAM at its disposal?
21:52:58 <ais523> so you could do IO-bound and network-bound and CPU-bound things all at once
21:53:01 <alise> A few years ago you'd be laughed at for suggesting it.
21:53:09 <alise> "Nonsense; we'll be using 4 GHz CPUs with that memory in a few years!"
21:53:18 <alise> "And if the CPU is low-powered, no reason to put expensive RAM in it!"
21:53:28 <ais523> alise: well, processor clock speeds stopped going up
21:53:37 <ais523> but the processors are still getting faster regardless, mostly by adding cores
21:53:38 <AnMaster> ais523, that too, but my scenario also makes sense, for a certain value of sense
21:53:39 <pikhq> Huh, BFS also makes the kernel smaller.
21:53:45 <alise> ais523: If not for public perception they'd be going /down/.
21:53:47 <alise> For power usage, etc.
21:53:57 <alise> pikhq: Because it removes CFS.
21:54:03 <ais523> alise: well, I really don't care about my clockspeed
21:54:03 <alise> pikhq: Which is not Brain Fuckedly simple.
21:54:20 <ais523> mostly because you can't get an electronic engineering degree without realising that lower is normally better, if you can speed the resulting speed up some other way
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21:54:45 <AnMaster> alise, I still do quite a few heavy serial tasks, meaning I want a reasonably high clock speed
21:55:00 <alise> ha ha, AnMaster doesn't understand how CPU architectures work
21:55:03 <alise> everybody laugh at him
21:55:05 <ais523> alise: just do those heavy serial tasks simultaneously
21:55:24 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't help if it is one task only really
21:55:34 <AnMaster> and sure, there are other ways to improve speed
21:55:36 <ais523> AnMaster: I'd be surprised if your /life/ was that serial
21:55:39 <AnMaster> better instruction set and so on
21:55:39 <alise> "My CPU is a 10 GHz Subleq! Fuck yeah, serial tasks."
21:55:46 <alise> ais523: Oh, trust me; AnMaster's life /is/ that serial.
21:55:57 <alise> What could be more important than stitching panoramas?!
21:56:09 <ais523> well, you can stitch two panoramas at once
21:56:12 <AnMaster> ais523, of course I do other stuff while waiting. I'm in no way suggesting that dual core or quad core is bad
21:56:19 <ais523> and even then, that task seems somewhat parallelisable
21:56:27 <alise> STITCHING TEN PANORAMAS AT ONCE YEAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
21:56:46 <alise> PHOTOGRAPHER HULK SMASH (IMAGES TOGETHER)
21:57:17 <AnMaster> just that 2x 2 GHz is better than 40 x 50 MHz
21:57:46 <alise> but not as good as 1,000,000,000,000 x 100 Hz!
21:57:54 <AnMaster> alise, stitching is quite parallelisable
21:58:02 <alise> (think Connection Machine)
21:58:36 <AnMaster> alise, for some tasks that might actually be better, not for my use case though
21:58:55 <AnMaster> same as 40 x 50 MHz could be better for some use cases as well
22:01:03 <alise> NETWORK_PERSIST=yes will speed up shutdown, right?
22:01:15 <alise> since it "skips network shutdown"
22:01:19 <pikhq> Huh. BFS manages to make latency lower with more CPUs. Nice.
22:01:20 <alise> any bad side-effects?
22:02:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: I guarantee that any even vaguely modern CPU executes things in parallel.
22:02:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, in this case I specifically meant multiple cores
22:03:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, rather than out-of-order, superscalar and so on
22:03:19 <alise> anyone wrt NETWORK_PERSIST? AnMaster? You know arch.
22:03:26 <pikhq> So, you are specifically referring to SMP. You probably still see benefits from it.
22:03:50 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I don't have arch handy to check atm. I'm on a hotel room with my thinkpad running ubuntu
22:04:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh definitely, which I also said
22:05:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, but I wasn't complaining about SMP, nor NUMA, rather I'm saying that:
22:05:17 <AnMaster> <ais523> alise: well, processor clock speeds stopped going up
22:05:17 <AnMaster> <ais523> but the processors are still getting faster regardless, mostly by adding cores
22:05:17 <AnMaster> <alise> ais523: If not for public perception they'd be going /down/.
22:05:26 <AnMaster> is not always such a good idea
22:05:33 <AnMaster> sure, for power usage it makes sense
22:05:46 <ais523> AnMaster: do you have any idea how crazy things are at high frequencies, in general?
22:06:04 <ais523> lower frequency = saner
22:06:10 <ais523> is the general rule of electronics
22:06:13 <AnMaster> ais523, well, to some degree. I don't have a degree in EE though
22:06:18 <ais523> (slight possible exception: DC and AC work very differently)
22:06:40 <pikhq> High clock frequencies are *hard*. And the Pentium 4 managed to nearly top out on practical CPU clock frequency.
22:07:37 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:08:04 <AnMaster> ais523, still, a) a lot of current software can't make easy use of multiple cores b) many tasks can't be parralellised very easy. Sure you can still run several of them at once, but sometimes you might only need one and you would prefer that getting done faster
22:08:09 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
22:08:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: I guarantee you run multiple programs at once.
22:08:51 <alise> in /etc/hosts does the preferred hostname come first or last?
22:09:32 <AnMaster> as an example that is actually on topic, consider esolang interpreters. Specifically something like "running a bf program". You can probably split part of the optimising of the program in multiple threads (though some will depend on the inferred state at the end of the previous section and so on), but running it? no?
22:09:41 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: I guarantee you run multiple programs at once. <-- again I never claimed anything else
22:09:41 <Deewiant> Doesn't it have localhost and localhost.localdomain by default
22:09:51 <alise> Deewiant: plus "myhost"
22:10:05 <alise> I've removed "localhost.localdomain"
22:10:18 <Deewiant> I guess localhost would be preferred of those two, anyway
22:10:19 <ais523> AnMaster: you mean your BF interp doesn't autoparallelize loops?
22:10:23 <AnMaster> but I can say that my computer is currently mostly idle. I'm using irc, and htop. Then there is a number of stuff like udevd, various kernel processes, and what not running
22:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently the FSF itself doesn't understand the GDFL. Nice.
22:10:48 <AnMaster> ais523, that could be done, but there are lots of programs that would gain nothing from it
22:10:49 <calamari> weird.. with their demo batch it works great, but with my own photos, hugin didn't work at all
22:11:01 <calamari> how did you get it to turn out so well?
22:11:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: *GFDL?
22:11:08 <ais523> I understand it relatively well
22:11:27 <alise> ais523: oh my god amazing idea
22:11:28 <ais523> partly because I used to be a Wikipedia admin, partly because I've used it myself for things that it's actually vaguely appropriate for
22:11:30 <alise> wrt parallelising loops
22:11:34 <alise> time to work on The Ultimate BF optimiser :D
22:11:55 <alise> ais523: you could do /all/ polynomialised loops like that, I think
22:12:19 <ais523> why would you parallelize a polynomialised loop?
22:12:19 <AnMaster> ais523, lets take [->++>+++<<] and for the moment ignore that this could be turned into a simple p[1]=p[0]*2; p[2]=p[0]*3;p[0]=0;
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22:12:33 <ais523> you'd just polynomialise it instead
22:12:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well, the FSF apparently told WP to ask their attorney.
22:12:43 <alise> ais523: I mean [ [...polynomial loop...] ]
22:12:50 <alise> which turns into [ some polynomial ]
22:12:57 <alise> i'm pretty sure you could run those in parallel
22:12:59 <AnMaster> ais523, all three written values would be in same cache line with high probability. Sure they might be split across two, but probably won't be
22:12:59 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: too be fair, the WP's attorney is Mike Godwin
22:13:12 <alise> ais523: wow, really? :D
22:13:22 <AnMaster> ais523, as I said, lets ignore that for the moment: <ais523> you'd just polynomialise it instead
22:13:24 <ais523> the FSF probably just decided he was the best person
22:13:39 <alise> ``I request that the court consider the fact that the vandal, WillyOnWheels, has several similarities to the Nazis and indeed Hitler.''
22:13:46 <AnMaster> "<ais523> you'd just polynomialise it instead" to "<Phantom_Hoover> Godwin as in the Law?" showed up in 1 second
22:14:18 <Sgeo> Godwin never stated that all comparisions to Nazis are accurate
22:14:22 <Sgeo> Why would he use one?
22:14:29 <alise> <Sgeo> hur wat is joek
22:14:38 <Phantom_Hoover> "Your honour, someone else didn't allow us to use our logo. They were the Nazis. The defence rests."
22:15:37 <alise> ``The defence rests ON THE JUSTICE OF THIS COURT, which is so unlike many courts which are not justful. Do you know what one of those courts was? That's right. The court of the NAZIS.''
22:16:15 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> So, will he be comparing the CIA to Nazis <-- ??
22:16:32 <ais523> wow, it must be awful to be Mike Godwin
22:16:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But ``fag quotes'' work perfectly with the right console font!
22:16:38 <ais523> and have people do this sort of thing everywhere you go
22:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, CIA sues WP for using their logo thing. WP's attorney is Godwin.
22:16:49 <alise> ais523: ITYM ``awesome''
22:17:17 <ais523> Godwin's response was awesome
22:17:34 <alise> LILO: The best thing since sliced lilo!
22:17:40 <ais523> alise: you're turning into a stereotyped Gentoo user...
22:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, It's a bootloader. You use it for what, 3 seconds?
22:17:58 <AnMaster> I never seen a gentoo user claim that lilo was better than grub
22:18:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: THOSE ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT 3 SECONDS OF MY LIFE.
22:18:10 <alise> ais523: no, a stereotypical AliseLinux OS
22:18:17 <alise> aliseLinux OS, how redundant
22:18:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, but it's still an option on Gentoo. :)
22:18:37 <alise> It's a Linux-based operating system that runs on your personal computer! We have our brand name!
22:18:40 <AnMaster> alise, PCLinuxOS for Personal Computers you mean?
22:19:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, I thought it was elilo that was
22:19:14 <pikhq> Nope, straight Lilo is still in Portage.
22:19:17 <alise> It's easy enough to uninstall GRUB, right?
22:19:34 <pikhq> And Gentoo does not install a bootloader by default.
22:19:43 <ais523> pikhq: how do you load it by default?
22:20:02 <AnMaster> ais523, while on livecd, you install one?
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22:20:12 <alise> You ... can uninstall GRUB, right? :D
22:20:40 <AnMaster> ais523, since you install by extracting tarball, editing a bit in /etc, then chrooting and installing one for each package where multiple alternatives exist
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22:20:50 <AnMaster> ais523, such as dhcp client, boot loader, and so on
22:20:54 * ais523 vaguely wonders how Ubuntu would react to "sudo aptitude remove grub" or whatever the package is
22:20:56 <AnMaster> oh and you build kernel there too
22:21:30 <alise> ais523: "AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
22:21:30 <AnMaster> ais523, grub has priority: optional
22:21:52 <AnMaster> ais523, however, it seems linux-image depends on grub
22:21:54 <ais523> AnMaster: that implies it's not part of a default install
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22:22:48 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have any depends on grub... just recommends and suggests
22:23:08 <AnMaster> ais523, no, I'm not going to test anything. I don't have a boot cd handy
22:23:20 <ais523> well, depending on a particular bootloader strikes me as crazy
22:23:32 <AnMaster> ais523, oh but grub provides a virtual
22:23:34 <ais523> why should anything care about the specific bootloader used, apart from bootloader modules (if such things exist)?
22:23:39 <ais523> the virtual makes a lot more sense
22:23:40 <AnMaster> but aptitude claims nothing depends on the virtual
22:23:54 <ais523> well, why on earth would you write "this program depends on some bootloader"?
22:23:59 <ais523> also, is the virtual marked as essential?
22:24:03 <ais523> (and thus a dependency of /everything/)?
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22:24:24 <AnMaster> I can't find if it is essential or not
22:24:51 <AnMaster> ais523, can virtuals even be essential?
22:25:03 <AnMaster> ais523, actually, it being essential would be silly
22:25:10 <AnMaster> ais523, think of stuff like chroot installs
22:25:17 <AnMaster> or xen (not sure how that boots)
22:25:33 <ais523> "depends on some bootloader" would only really make sense for init
22:25:37 <ais523> which isn't needed in a chroot either
22:25:59 <ais523> linux bootloaders recommend linux?
22:26:28 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, freebsd jails (glorified and more secure chroots) run an init inside each jail
22:26:36 <ais523> normally it's a case of depending on something in general and something in particular
22:26:51 <ais523> like C-INTERCAL depending on "gcc or a C compiler"
22:27:05 <AnMaster> linux-image-2.6.32-24-generic recommends "grub-pc | grub | lilo (>= 19.1)"
22:27:07 <ais523> to suggest that gcc is the right compiler to install if there isn't one already, but any C compiler can be used if there is one
22:27:47 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway what about coreboot? you wouldn't use grub then. Or booting linux stored in a NOR flash
22:28:04 * ais523 vaguely wonders if there's a difference between NOR flash and NAND flash
22:28:08 <ais523> other than, you know, logic levels
22:28:22 <AnMaster> ais523, well, iirc you can't get execute-in-place for NAND
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22:29:00 <AnMaster> ais523, quoting WP: "the interface provided for reading and writing the memory is different (NOR allows random-access for reading, NAND allows only page access)"
22:29:43 <ais523> hmm, so it's a case of the names describing a lot that's irrelevant to the actual names
22:29:55 <AnMaster> ais523, "NOR and NAND flash get their names from the structure of the interconnections between memory cells.[16] In NOR flash, cells are connected in parallel to the bitlines, allowing cells to be read and programmed individually. The parallel connection of cells resembles the parallel connection of transistors in a CMOS NOR gate. In NAND flash, cells are connected in series, resembling a NAND gate."
22:30:08 <AnMaster> "The series connections consume less space than parallel ones, reducing the cost of NAND flash. It does not, by itself, prevent NAND cells from being read and programmed individually."
22:30:16 <AnMaster> so it seems it isn't actual NOR and NAND
22:30:32 <ais523> oh, it's based on half of the usual implementations in terms of FETs
22:30:50 <ais523> or maybe even the entire thing if you're going open-drain
22:31:21 <AnMaster> ais523, while I understand every word of what you just said, I do not understand the whole thing...
22:31:42 <AnMaster> also, wouldn't open-drain consume quite a bit of power?
22:32:17 <ais523> although I think it does use higher power than the usual logic levels
22:33:23 <AnMaster> ais523, also WP: "In flash memory, each memory cell resembles a standard MOSFET, except the transistor has two gates instead of one."
22:42:26 <calamari> ugh hugin keeps shrinking my image
22:45:39 <fizzie> Huh? You can specify any pixel-width you like in the stitching window.
22:46:13 <fizzie> If it shrinks in the preview, it means the optimizer thinks the field-of-view is smaller than what it was.
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22:47:43 <fizzie> There's that "calculate optimal size" button which makes it calc pixel size for the output so that its resolution approximately matches the source images.
22:48:14 <fizzie> And the scrollbars in the preview control the fov.
22:55:12 <zzo38> I want to invent a 'patamagician class in Dungeons&Dragons
22:59:27 <zzo38> Plain TeX is more better than LaTeX! I have used both, and I have concluded that Plain TeX is more better. In addition, cross-references can be done in Plain TeX without needing auxiliary files or two passes.
23:01:05 <Sgeo> I get the impression alise missed stuff in Spaced
23:01:22 <Sgeo> I'll check when I get home
23:02:37 <Sgeo> I think the attempted jump to Epsilion Eridani occured too soon
23:02:40 -!- alise has joined.
23:02:57 <alise> Xorg 1.8: "We made hotplugging and automatic hardware detection work. Like, actually really honest-to-godly work."
23:03:08 <alise> "Oh, and NO MORE FUCKING .FDI."
23:03:22 <alise> A+++++ would buy again
23:03:28 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, it is my idea, 'patamagician class. Some of its features are both spontaneous and prepared casting (but less slots than normal, even in total), a null metamagic feat, extra 'patamagic uses, and cantripology (when you run out of all slots (both prepared and spontaneous), of all levels, you can get one free 0-level slot costing 1 XP)
23:03:49 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
23:07:01 <alise> So, anyone know of a Linux browser that isn't naff? ...Yeah, didn't think so.
23:07:16 <alise> See Phantom_Hoover, I said ``naff'' instead of ``sucky''.
23:07:20 <zzo38> What does "naff" means?
23:07:20 <pikhq> Seriously, web browsers suck universally.
23:07:22 <alise> pikhq: That too. s/ / /.
23:07:27 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I agree
23:07:30 <alise> zzo38: British slang for "kind of rubbish".
23:07:40 <pikhq> Software, really, sucks universally.
23:07:44 <alise> zzo38: Something naff is... ineffectual, useless; like "crappy" but more... bleh-y.
23:07:57 <alise> pikhq: Be careful! Phantom_Hoover will DESTROY your negativity with a Care Bear stare.
23:08:27 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I get the impression alise missed stuff in Spaced
23:08:27 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I'll check when I get home
23:08:27 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I think the attempted jump to Epsilion Eridani occured too soon
23:08:50 <alise> Sgeo: I corrected it
23:08:52 <alise> see my lastest link
23:08:57 <alise> I missed one chapter out
23:09:52 <alise> coppro: Spac\'ed (I dunno how to do the rightwards-pointing accent in the Linux console...) is the second major story-arc of the Ed stories.
23:10:01 <alise> http://qntm.org/ed, or see the logs for my nicely-typeset PDF.
23:10:44 <alise> pikhq: Hmm... how is Konqueror these days?
23:11:03 <alise> If you disable some toolbar icons it's... usable.
23:11:48 <alise> I would also like to note that pekwm is a pretty nice window manager.
23:13:40 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:21:03 <alise> Hey, pikhq. If GTK et al are rendering UI elements and text in bitmap fonts, what does that mean?
23:21:08 <alise> I think I have non-bitmap fonts installed.
23:21:53 <alise> Actually /no I don't/.
23:22:05 <alise> Arch is really a bit anal with the "DO NOT INCLUDE ANYTHING IN PACKAGES! ANYTHING!!!!" thing.
23:22:06 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAA http://www.firstpersontetris.com/
23:22:20 <alise> oerjan: Just from the URL: <3<3<3
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23:23:02 * alise "sacrifices the present at the altar of the future" by installing the bitstream fonts
23:24:34 <alise> pikhq: I've installed Linux Libertine. I guess I have to tell something that's my default font now, huh?
23:24:59 <Sgeo> And AFK soon forreal
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23:25:38 <oerjan> Sgeo: interestingly, that fact never crossed my mind. but then i was seriously dizzy most of the time.
23:26:08 <Sgeo> I use FlashBlock, so I immediately notice
23:26:58 <alise> pikhq: Linux Biolinium O. Yeeeees <3
23:27:40 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
23:29:49 <pikhq> alise: Sadly, Linux Biolinium is not finished.
23:31:37 <alise> pikhq: But it IS hot.
23:31:46 <alise> Furthermore, OMG GTK+ THEMES STOP SUCKING.
23:32:39 -!- alise has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:32:39 <pikhq> alise: The hinting sucks though.
23:35:23 <oerjan> the _final_ operating system
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23:40:24 -!- SimonRC has joined.
23:40:31 <fizzie> Linux Bio-linoleum; the environmentally conscious, yet cheap and durable operating system.
23:42:19 <Sgeo> Oh, it's a font?
23:42:41 <Sgeo> Any reason for it being called _Linux_ Biolinum in particular?
23:42:59 <Sgeo> And why is it called Grotesque
23:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise gave me a list of the proper terms for points. They're fantastic.
23:43:51 <oerjan> grotesque should be something with tentacles perfect for printing lovecraft stories
23:44:15 <Sgeo> "A sans serif style with moderate stroke contrast and modern proportions particular to the U.K. Usually features a two-story lowercase g, closed strokes (usually curving in slightly) on C and S, and a sloped, non-cursive italic. Classic example: Bureau Grot."
23:45:42 <Sgeo> What typeface do the examples in http://typedia.com/learn/only/anatomy-of-a-typeface/ use?
23:47:22 <Sgeo> How is the tail in R decorative
23:47:46 <Sgeo> Ooh, the tail of that R was nice and curved in the input box. Too bad the .. chat thingy uses a different font
23:49:24 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]).
23:51:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Particularly, monospace fonts that handle funny characters elegantly.
23:53:27 <Sgeo> I still have no idea what a Foundry is
23:53:43 <Sgeo> Except that some fonts are either missing them or missing information on them on Typedia
23:57:03 <pikhq> A type foundry creates fonts.
23:57:51 <Phantom_Hoover> To install fonts on Ubuntu I simply copy them into ~/.fonts, right?