00:00:19 "fuck" would be bleeped. 00:00:26 Wait ... even after 8/9 pm? 00:00:28 Yes. 00:00:31 ... 00:00:35 WHAT?! 00:00:37 alise, they haven't got a watershed in the US IIRC 00:00:49 Wait ... didn't that show The Wire have a fuckton of profanity? 00:00:59 They had a fuckton of bleeps. 00:01:03 *****ton 00:01:10 Wow. 00:01:11 alise: the smeg i know 00:01:20 oerjan: The difference being that Red Dwarf was comedy. :P 00:01:29 pikhq: So ... uh ... how do you guys even ... television ... the? 00:01:45 The most bizarre thing being that this is also done on cable TV. 00:01:52 I seem to recall reading that it was partially due to the US having about 5 timezones, but that might be excuse-making. 00:01:55 ... Which has absolutely no such regulations at all. 00:02:40 pikhq: But ... why? 00:03:17 SGA had a character say "ass" in front of a toddler. That caught me offguard 00:03:19 alise: Okay, imagine the oldest, most crotchety, conservative person you know. 00:03:23 alise, the US is very conservative. That's what it comes down to. 00:03:28 These people vote in droves. 00:03:39 And complain in droves. 00:03:39 pikhq: But if there isn't a law for it for cable TV... 00:04:02 They file complaints like crazy to the cable companies and the networks. 00:04:12 Iiiii want to cryyyy 00:04:15 In short: our old folk are fucking noisy and irritating. 00:04:25 Why are you guys allowed to be the biggest superpower? 00:04:28 Except maybe China. 00:04:34 And so our television censors based on 1920s social mores. 00:04:39 I mean, on TV Tropes there are various references to films actively trying to avoid an NC-17 rating as if it would make it worthless, which is treated as normal. 00:05:04 If a film is rated NC-17 in the US, it basically will not be seen. 00:05:23 You can have frontal nudity in a non-NC-17 movie 00:05:25 iirc 00:05:27 Meanwhile an 18 rating is commonplace in the UK. 00:05:34 Sgeo, same with an 18. 00:05:43 You can get away with it in a PG, actually. 00:05:48 Not because it's been banned, but because almost no stores will carry it and no theatres will carry it. 00:05:52 Phantom_Hoover_: ... *PG*. 00:06:02 pikhq, Manon de Sources. Arty. 00:06:05 And French. 00:06:12 Phantom_Hoover_: Redundant. 00:06:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 00:06:39 pikhq: Yeah... typical film ratings here are 12A (basically PG), 15 and 18. 00:06:51 Any "serious" film will be 15 or 18, most likely. 00:06:52 Here, full frontal nudity will not make it NC-17 unless the crotchety old bastards on the rating panel feel it's too much. 00:07:02 Well, U and PG are common, as well as plain 12. 00:07:23 alise: We have G, PG, PG-13, R, (effective censorship) NC-17 00:07:48 pikhq: You're fucking crazy! I'm crying! 00:07:53 Oh, so it isn't even 17+, it's 18+. 00:08:01 Correct. 00:08:05 R and NC-17 are *both* 18+. 00:08:06 The BBFC system is something like Uc, U, PG, 12A, 12, 15, 18, R18. 00:08:07 What a stupid fucking name for 18+. 00:08:19 pikhq: But a 3-year-old can watch an R movie with a parent, right? 00:08:22 Yes. 00:08:25 Hmm. 00:08:26 Madness. 00:08:27 I don't think that is true in the UK. 00:08:29 Same with NC-17, actually. 00:08:32 No. 00:08:35 IIRC 00:08:36 "No one 17 and under admitted" 00:08:39 Would seem to imply not. 00:08:41 Ah. 00:08:46 Shouldn't it be 21+, to reflect the USA's fucking crazy moral system? 00:08:50 R- Restricted (1968–present) 00:08:50 Under 17 requires accompanying by a parent or adult guardian 00:08:50 NC-17- No One 17 and Under Admitted (1990–present) 00:08:52 * Sgeo did not like being forced to see R movies 00:08:52 alise, 12A is the only one where an adult changes things. 00:09:00 Moot point though, because no film is released NC-17. 00:09:02 Or, being forced anywhere, for that matte 00:09:04 *matter 00:09:14 pikhq: Apart from porn? 00:09:31 pikhq, so it goes G, R? 00:09:31 alise: No. Rating is not mandatory. 00:09:33 If a film *were* to be NC-17, it will instead opt for being unrated. 00:09:41 Ah. 00:09:48 Which will stop anyone from seeing it, right? 00:09:50 Madness^2. 00:10:05 Phantom_Hoover: You forgot PG, PG-13. 00:10:07 alise, probably isn't mandatory like the BBFC. 00:10:12 The BBFC system is something like Uc, U, PG, 12A, 12, 15, 18, R18. 00:10:18 R18 is porn, isn't it? 00:10:21 The rating is entirely optional. 00:10:23 alise, we don't have PG-13 in the UK, or I've never seen it. 00:10:25 (More or less.) 00:10:26 alise, yes. 00:10:27 It's done by the MPAA. 00:10:37 Phantom_Hoover: Eh? I thought you meant the US systems. 00:10:40 Went G, R. 00:10:47 Oh, right. 00:10:57 I thought you meant the BBFC comment. 00:11:13 So, G, PG, PG-13, R. 00:11:25 Basically, G is the rating for something that even the most crazy "think of the children" type folk wouldn't be offended by. 00:11:44 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what Die Hard was rated as in the US 00:11:52 PG is vaguely serious stuff, but for the most part quite appropriate for children. 00:11:53 pikhq: Well, your system is saner in one way (that all the ratings that are actually used can be overriden by a parent) 00:11:53 It's an 18 here, so... 00:11:56 PG-13 is that with cussing. 00:12:00 How did Avatar: The Last Airbender get the TV equivalent of G? 00:12:12 Sgeo: TV ratings are different. 00:12:12 Phantom_Hoover: Is Gc really a rating in the true sense? 00:12:22 Gc is exactly the same as G, just saying "hey, children will like this". 00:12:25 R is that with more violence and room for nudity. 00:12:29 Uc? Well, not really. It was for completeness. 00:12:33 Sgeo: ...TV HAS RATINGS IN THE US??? 00:12:41 alise: Entirely optional as well. 00:12:49 alise, it basically does here, if you count the watershed. 00:12:50 alise: And literally only exists as suggestions. 00:12:56 The only people who give ratings for TV in the UK are ... some TV guides. 00:13:15 alise: Ironically, we *still* have no cursing on TV. 00:13:18 I think the watershed should just be abolished and the main channels won't show hugely edgy stuff in the kinds of slots children etc. will be watching anyway. 00:13:24 pikhq, "ass" isn't a curse? 00:13:29 Sgeo: ... No. 00:13:35 Neither is "damn" nor "hell". 00:13:35 alise, does it matter all that much? 00:13:47 Phantom_Hoover: Well, not really. 00:13:50 Sgeo: Ass will still get bleeped. 00:13:53 pikhq: ... 00:13:55 pikhq: You're joking. 00:14:00 pikhq, FFS. 00:14:10 Haven't watched much SG-1/SGA on the TV 00:14:16 Just Hulu/YouTube 00:14:38 alise: As will "shit", "piss", "fuck", "cunt", "cocksucker", "motherfucker" and "tits". 00:14:39 pikhq: Okay, question: do the non-TV releases of shows have the cursing? 00:14:56 pikhq: I, too, understand references! 00:15:19 I cannot believe you can't say "tits" on US TV... hahahahahahaha you're crazy. 00:15:22 alise: ... I'm not even joking. I know I'm referring to a joke, but I'm not even joking. 00:15:23 Wait, can you say "cock" but not "cocksucker"? 00:15:40 Yes. 00:15:40 As in, "You are a person who sucks cocks" is okay but not "You are a cocksucker"? 00:15:43 pikhq: really? that stuff gets bleeped out for you? 00:15:50 Well, "motherfucker" comes above "fuck" in the BBC's List Of Forbidden Words. 00:15:54 coppro: Yes. The US is motherfucking insane. 00:16:21 O_o 00:16:22 Indeed, "motherfucker" comes above anything else in the List. 00:16:34 Phantom_Hoover: Link me? 00:16:37 Also, in searching for it I found THIS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7949077.stm 00:16:50 Fuckety fuck. 00:16:52 alise, well, it was anecdotal and in print. 00:16:52 Fuckety fuck! 00:16:53 we have a watershed, it's not as strong afterwards as in the UK, but we certainly can hear swear words 00:16:55 Oh fucky fuck fuck fuck! 00:17:06 Our game ratings are *also* absurd. 00:17:33 Phantom_Hoover: In what, the Sun? :-) 00:17:54 alise, of course not. Possibly one of the Guardian's array of supplements. 00:18:11 s/Guardian/Grauniad/ 00:18:14 eC, E, E10 00:18:22 eC, E, E10+, T, M, AO. 00:18:35 pikhq, doesn't seem *that* absurd. 00:18:48 "Early Childhood", "Everyone", "Everyone 10+", "Teen", "Mature" (17+), "Adult Only" 00:18:50 AO is reserved exclusively for Anarchy Online. 00:18:53 In the UK they just extend the film ratings. 00:19:09 Or some European system. 00:19:18 Yeah, we use the European system now. 00:19:29 I think I uninstalled AO recently, to make space 00:19:36 The suggested ages being: 3-10, 6+, 10+, 13+, 17+, 18+. 00:19:41 Only tried it once, remember nothing :( 00:19:42 pikhq, where be the insanity? 00:19:53 Phantom_Hoover: The ratings are *also* done by old crotchety bastards. 00:19:59 Although 17+ and 18+ is ridiculously stupid. 00:20:27 very few games have AO ratings because they're basically impossible to secure retailers for 00:20:51 Persona 3. CERO B, ESRB M. 00:20:53 coppro, ah. 00:20:54 and /me hates retailers who won't sell T or M games to people underage laiming it's the law 00:20:56 pikhq: I've got to know: what kind of 18+ material exists in today's society that the average (18-n)-year-old can't stand? 00:21:14 I find it really hard to believe that the average 16, 17 year old hasn't Already Seen That Shit. Probably even 15-year-old. 00:21:25 (Rhetorical question, naturally.) 00:21:32 Yes, something you guys call "appropriate for 12+" is on our highest-effective-rating. 00:21:38 Phantom_Hoover: it's not to say they won't rate them AO - they have on occasion - but that the game manufacturers will then do everything to get them down 00:21:39 Erm. Sorry, that's Japan. 00:21:45 PEGI, 12+ 00:21:55 Same rating meaning, at least. 00:22:11 *claiming 00:22:31 alise: Hmm. Well, there's probably some stuff that'd make them lose their lunch... 00:22:41 But said stuff would do the same to the same person at 18+, so. 00:22:51 Precisely. 00:23:05 Why do I always find myself orienting to a more conservative mindset in these matters? Intellectually, I agree with you all, but still, it feels.. weird, the idea of swearing not necessarily being something that needs to be shielded from kids 00:23:10 Does the US have the weird habit of viewing sex as worse than violence? 00:23:21 Sgeo: Outside of the US, swearing is not considered weird to expose to kids. 00:23:24 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 00:23:42 I'm pretty sure nobody would object to a parent saying "Shit!" due to a minor injury. 00:24:00 There is a mildly-valid slippery-slope argument, but... ugh 00:24:04 Sgeo: Dude, kids hear cursing. It's really not a big deal. Unless you're 60+ or a neocon. 00:24:17 pikhq, intellectually I agree, but... 00:24:21 alise, OTOH, having something really offensive to say when you type an extra space in "rm -r * ~" is helpful. 00:24:27 cursing is dumb anyways 00:24:28 Sgeo: Oh, get over your stupid US-based prejudices. 00:24:35 (the notion of it, I mean) 00:24:43 coppro, ^ 00:24:55 Phantom_Hoover: R is the first rating where nudity or sex can be depicted at all on film ratings. 00:25:04 Gore etc? 00:25:18 Phantom_Hoover: And this literally cannot be shown over the air. 00:25:21 that's fine for teenagers 00:25:35 coppro, no, that's the point. 00:25:59 Using it randomly leaves you with nothing to say when things go really badly wrong. 00:26:01 (and de facto can't be shown on cable TV) 00:26:02 Phantom_Hoover: no, I mean that's fine for teenagers in the US 00:26:17 alise: People do object to this. 00:26:24 Phantom_Hoover: the notion of a word to express strong discontent is fine 00:26:30 pikhq: Do object to? 00:26:34 and it's why I don't swear often 00:26:44 but the notion that certain words are inherently bad is ridiculous 00:26:46 alise: Cursing in front of a child. At all. 00:26:50 pikhq: Ah. 00:26:55 I swear a lot on the internet, barely ever in person. 00:27:04 In person they just seem ... unnerving, somehow. 00:27:08 I talk pretty much the same IRL as I do in person. So. 00:27:12 I try to avoid swearing in public 00:27:14 pikhq, "over the air" being broadcast terrestrially? 00:27:18 pikhq, no kidding? 00:27:19 Like, off-hand swearing puts me off-guard. 00:27:19 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 00:27:27 Sgeo: no kidding what? 00:27:32 Apparently the word "fuck" will corrupt a child's mind for all eternity. 00:27:39 As will seeing a nipple. 00:27:39 pikhq> I talk pretty much the same IRL as I do in person. So. 00:27:41 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 00:27:45 Sgeo: I'm pretty sure that's true. 00:27:49 Wait, that's what you get with *swearing*? 00:27:58 I'm more willing to swear online than in person 00:28:00 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. 00:28:04 alise, hense why I said no kidding 00:28:09 but I certainly don't do it casually 00:28:10 Sgeo: Yeah. 00:28:13 Not everyone does. 00:28:16 People don't say "u" in person. 00:28:24 .... 00:28:31 * Phantom_Hoover once saw someone on TV Tropes express surprise that "sod" wasn't bleeped. 00:28:33 Read what it says again 00:28:41 oh 00:28:44 ha 00:28:49 *Sod*. It's like "damn" or "hell". 00:29:00 Sod damn it to hell. 00:29:15 ... Yes, I would actually have said "IRL" there if around people who would have known the acronym without even thinking of it. 00:29:22 yeah, me too 00:29:27 pikhq: lolll 00:29:32 read it again 00:29:37 carefully 00:29:40 alise: *Wow*. 00:29:51 I'm slow today. 00:29:54 :D 00:29:58 Wow at what? 00:30:02 I've complained about RL graphics before 00:30:03 I would have totally made that slip IRL, though. :P 00:30:51 hah 00:30:51 Do you say "eerc" at the start of sentences? 00:31:04 Phantom_Hoover: ? 00:31:05 Yeerk? 00:31:25 "IIRC" funeticly. 00:32:24 Anyways. TV ratings in the US are: Y, Y7, Y7-FV, G, PG, 14, MA. "Young", "Young, 7+", "Young, 7+, with Fantasy Violence", "General audience", "Parental Guidance suggested", "14+", "17+". 00:32:25 I say "if I recall correctly" ... 00:32:39 "Fantasy violence"? 00:32:54 I think fantasy violence is hitting a pirate with a frying pan 00:32:56 "Orc blood is clearly more scarring than man blood". 00:33:02 s/more/less/ 00:33:19 Phantom_Hoover : That's why Klingons had pink blood in Star Trek VI 00:33:21 No, no, no. "Looney Tunes is clearly more scarring than Barney." 00:33:27 s/scarring/delicious/ 00:33:41 I always wince slightly when people star out "hell" and "damn". 00:33:54 Phantom_Hoover: I consider "IIRC" as a logograph. 00:33:55 And get an impulse to hit the people who did it. 00:34:16 As a yuropian, I find weird the whole taboo on hell and damn 00:34:26 But well, our nations weren't founded by puritans 00:34:47 Although that probably doesn't mean much because Australia is even crazier in censorship 00:35:04 It should amuse you, though, to note that other than at the very low ranges of our ratings, violence is *perfectly* acceptable pretty much of the time. 00:35:09 Slereah, yes. You would have thought that criminals would be cool about that. 00:35:12 Phantom_Hoover, so are you going to censor me censoring d*mn? 00:35:25 s/d*mn/damn/ 00:35:33 Sgeo, I shall focus the Device on you. 00:35:52 A decapitation is better than an asscrack 00:36:01 Coördinates? 00:36:15 Phantom_Hoover : This isn't the 20's 00:36:17 Eh, an episode of The Nanny had an asscrack in it iirc 00:36:18 No diaresis 00:36:30 alise, look what Slereah said 00:36:31 Make the film a gigantic shootout? PG! Add a nipple? R! Add a suggestion of someone having sex outside of the missionary position? BANNED! 00:36:49 Nooooo, not the nipple! 00:37:11 Which is strange, because babies see nipples all the time 00:37:15 They eat from them! 00:37:26 Slereah: The US has breast-feeding as a rarity. 00:37:32 So... No. 00:37:49 Slereah, dö nöt ïnsült thë dïärësïs. 00:38:00 Lovecraft used diaresis :3 00:38:05 Like 00:38:07 Aroport 00:38:23 Dïärësës. 00:38:33 * Phantom_Hoover loves the compose key. 00:38:54 Phantom_Hoover : That's why Klingons had pink blood in Star Trek VI 00:38:55 Really? 00:39:07 VI is 6, so good. 00:39:18 Yeah. 00:39:24 In other episodes, it's red 00:39:35 But they had to change it for rating purpose, IIRC 00:39:38 Phantom_Hoover : This isn't the 20's No diaresis 00:39:40 :( 00:39:50 Eh, an episode of The Nanny had an asscrack in it iirc <-- And you'd know, because you watched VERY CLOSELY. 00:40:12 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, The Undiscovered Country was great. 00:40:15 Slereah: The US has breast-feeding as a rarity. 00:40:15 So... No. 00:40:29 Whaaaa? 00:40:30 pikhq, you're kidding. 00:40:42 You have a total taboo on breastfeeding? 00:40:48 Not breastfeeding is considerd severely irresponsible in the UK. 00:41:02 pikhq, America is now disqualified from the world. 00:41:05 -!- cheater99 has joined. 00:41:24 * coppro prepares to seal the IB 00:41:27 Well, of course there would be one. 00:41:30 Has anyone seen Star Trek (2009)? 00:41:37 It involves showing babies BREASTS. 00:41:38 yes 00:41:40 alise, yes 00:41:42 coppro: International Baccalaureate? 00:41:47 alise: International Boundary 00:41:52 Phantom_Hoover: coppro: Is it any good> 00:41:53 It is the only one I have seen 00:41:54 *good? 00:41:55 IE that big curved line 00:41:56 alise, yes. 00:42:01 alise: worth watching 00:42:01 alise : Yes 00:42:03 Phantom_Hoover: Presumably you've seen other Trek series, though. 00:42:07 Nope. 00:42:10 Phantom_Hoover: Wha?! 00:42:15 The thing I most remember from Star Trek XI is 00:42:29 I've seen all the ST movies except 6 00:42:32 Phantom_Hoover: Prescription: The Next Generation. Yes, all of it. Well. You can skip everything with beardless Riker and Wesley. 00:42:33 Phantom_Hoover: Not a taboo, but baby formula is the norm. 00:42:36 At one point, they send on a mission Sulu, Kirk, and some guy in a red suit 00:42:36 By far the norm. 00:42:38 Now shoo, go watch it. 00:42:40 And I thought 00:42:40 pikhq: That's crazy. 00:42:43 "Red guy is gonna die" 00:42:45 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:42:48 alise, it was never on, so I never watched it. 00:42:50 alise: Yes, it is. 00:42:51 Slereah: And he did, don't spoil it. :P 00:43:01 alise : It's really not a spoiler 00:43:06 I mean, it's Star Trek 00:43:07 Phantom_Hoover: Virgin 1 show TNG, DS9 and Voyager every day... :P 00:43:11 Slereah: True dat 00:43:14 Red suits die if they go on a mission 00:43:21 I've seen all the ST movies except 6 00:43:22 watch it 00:43:23 it's very good 00:43:27 alise: I know that I should 00:43:28 Slereah, red SHIRTS. 00:43:30 (it's the only Trek film I've seen) 00:43:42 alise : Watch Star Trek 4 and 8 00:43:44 They're the best 00:43:56 8 is First Contact? 00:44:01 Yes. 00:44:06 yeah 00:44:09 defs watch 00:44:27 We all know the formula, right? 00:44:29 That's recorded on the Sky+ box downstairs. 00:44:33 Phantom_Hoover: Only works if you add Galaxy Quest. 00:44:35 do not watch 5 except under duress 00:44:35 http://qntm.org/odd 00:44:40 alise, I know. 00:44:44 to get Nemesis and (2009) correct 00:44:50 trekGoodness :: Int -> Bool 00:44:53 Galaxy Quest is also p. good 00:44:54 Which one's 5? 00:45:03 Sgeo: The Final Frontier 00:45:04 5 is the one considered bad 00:45:07 I liked it, though 00:45:13 Shatner wrote The Final Frontier. 00:45:20 Pretty sure Shatner is a fucking terrible writer. 00:45:20 trekGoodness no = if no `mod` 2 == 1 then True else False 00:45:25 Phantom_Hoover: ... 00:45:31 trekGoodness = even 00:45:36 Phantom_Hoover: also: 00:45:37 Phantom_Hoover : what about 10 00:45:39 I know. 00:45:40 Phantom_Hoover: "if x then True else False" 00:45:52 Slereah: Galaxy Quest must be counted as #10 00:45:55 alise, cut me some slack! 00:45:58 I almost wrote code like that recently 00:45:59 Clever. 00:46:07 then it's #11: Nemesis, bad, #12: (2009), good 00:46:20 Sgeo, I wrote in in like 5 seconds in a tiny single line IRC box. 00:46:38 It was never going to be best practice. 00:46:45 It annoys me to no end that the HDTV is downstairs. >_> 00:46:56 Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I wrote lists in cpp on an /iPhone/ in a mental institution. 00:47:01 Phantom_Hoover: I cut no slack :P 00:47:08 On one line, too. In IRC. 00:47:15 alise, well, you're God. 00:47:19 alise, pssh. 00:47:40 I once wrote a full kernel by whistling down a phone! 00:47:41 http://www.littlespikeyland.com/st_odd_even.php 00:47:43 "Therefore we can be 99% confident that the odd and even films represent two different classes of films, with the even films being the "better" of the two sets." 00:47:47 Phantom_Hoover: Okay, Joybubbles. 00:47:50 Sgeo: I love having worshippers. 00:48:07 (totally cheating though, that analysis) 00:48:24 Okay, more Trek opinions needed: 00:48:30 Enterprise: good series, bad series? 00:49:07 Aren't Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock connected? Or is it some other two movies that are connected? 00:49:19 2-4 are all direct sequels 00:49:27 * Phantom_Hoover needs to sleep 00:49:32 LESS FILIMING MORE RATING SERIESING 00:49:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:49:55 alise, afaik, Enterprise is widely hated 00:50:00 Never saw an episode myself though 00:50:04 it's pretty bad 00:50:10 Okay. 00:50:15 You know 00:50:25 I didn't care for the Wrath of Khan all that much 00:50:31 Deep Space Nine: good series, bad series? 00:50:45 DS9 has good and bad in it 00:50:49 I mean, I love Ricardo Montalban 00:50:51 But well 00:50:53 not as wildly varying as voyager 00:50:56 and on average better 00:51:07 That was a litmus test, I despise DS9. :P 00:51:16 You know what's terrible, though? 00:51:19 Okay, it's /saner/ than Voyager, but... 00:51:21 The animated series. 00:51:21 It's so fucking boring! 00:51:33 The animated series is all that's bad about Star Trek. 00:51:35 Slereah: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061122013747/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/0/0c/KIRK_IS_A_JERK.jpg/292px-KIRK_IS_A_JERK.jpg 00:51:54 Wasn't the holodeck introduced in the animated series? 00:52:01 The "rec room" was. 00:52:02 on the whole, I'd say DS9 > VOY 00:52:09 Maybe, iunno 00:52:10 But really, TNG is the one that really defined the holodeck. 00:52:24 The only thing that I regret is that M'ress was only in the animated series 00:52:29 coppro: If you have an attention span the length of ... something long. 00:52:48 Slereah: Furrrrryyyyy 00:52:53 alise, broken link 00:52:57 http://mimg.ugo.com/200901/14973/mress.jpg 00:52:57 :3 00:53:00 I'd hit it. 00:53:00 Sgeo: Is not 00:53:08 coppro: * > VOY 00:53:20 pikhq: Nonono, Voyager has great merit because it's fucking hilarious, always. 00:53:23 Even watching Threshold is great. 00:53:38 alise: I'm afraid I find myself groaning instead. 00:53:59 Slereah: The animated series had some good moments. And a lot of corny moments. 00:54:06 Yeah. 00:54:17 I think the most telling episode is the one where they go into a universe 00:54:20 Where there's MAGIC 00:54:21 Basically, though, it's TOS with worse production values. 00:54:29 I don't like TOS much. 00:54:29 And Spock has to do a spell 00:54:36 I don't think Roddenberry was a very good writer, I have to admit. 00:54:36 (if such a thing was possible) 00:54:42 Too idealistic. 00:54:50 I love TNG. 00:54:51 alise: TOS, again, has its moments and a lot of corn. 00:54:56 My favorite episodes are the time travel episodes 00:54:59 TNG is absolutely amazing. 00:55:01 That's why I loved 4 and 8 00:55:08 There's a digital remaster thing of TOS airing on one of the CBS channels over here. 00:55:11 It's awful. 00:55:13 Well, TNG also had stupid episodes 00:55:16 You can't digitally remaster cardboard. 00:55:19 It just feels still and ... weird. 00:55:20 Like the one where they all become children 00:55:35 Yes, but TOS had more stupid episodes than good ones. 00:55:43 TNG is as good as Trek gets. 00:55:47 And the good ones are, themselves, filled with a lot of corn. 00:55:48 Which is "a bit above mediocre". 00:56:07 But, most sci-fi you see is "almost unbearable crap". 00:56:08 Plus, it has Data <3 00:56:11 So TNG is very good. 00:56:24 I'm with Slereah 00:56:44 * alise tries to find a nice Data quote to mark the mention of his name 00:57:07 "One is my name, and the other isn't." 00:57:20 * alise looks for a script 00:57:24 Yay, a script. 00:58:15 Lot of _anythng_ is crap. 00:58:20 *anything 00:58:36 O'Brien: We're all going to be burning the midnight oil on this one. / Data: That would be inadvisable. If you attempt to ignite a petroleum product on this ship at zero-hundred hours, it will activate the fire suppression system, which will seal off this entire compartment. / [...] / Data: Ah. Then "to burn the midnight oil" implies late work? 00:58:41 Soon after: 00:58:57 Data: This will require a completely new field induction subprocessor. It appears that we will be required to... ignite the midnight petroleum, sir. 00:59:24 Data would have been a much better character if the Trek writers had any sense of what an emotionless, rational, but still human-intelligence robot would be like :P 00:59:29 Which is, uh 00:59:32 More tautological than I intended. 00:59:39 Ilari: Yes, but more bad sci-fi gets published/etc. 00:59:53 alise : Iunno 01:00:05 He would not have been as endearing if he actually had no emotions 01:00:25 True... 01:00:28 But still. 01:00:34 Sometimes he's not very logical ... at all. 01:00:45 In fact come to think of it he's basically a Vulcan who talks weird. 01:01:26 And Vulcans themselves are not exactly logical. 01:01:27 Well, most of the TNG cast was just TOS with different actors 01:01:50 I consider their claims of this to just be religious assertations. 01:01:56 Erm, claims. 01:02:00 pikhq: One thing I've always been uneasy about: canon states they learned to "suppress" emotions. 01:02:01 Assertions. 01:02:05 So they still have all these emotions, they just ... bottle them up? 01:02:09 That's gotta be really unhealthy. 01:02:19 Slereah: Picard was a way better captain than Kirk though 01:02:26 That's why the Vulkan in Star Trek 5 was all crazy 01:02:35 He just lets out his emotions, and BAM! 01:02:37 "Vulkan" 01:02:46 Fifty years of bottled emotions come out 01:02:52 pikhq: BTW, the quality of that cleaned-up TNG rip is pretty good. 01:03:02 pikhq: It's still... very soft, you know, but that's just how it was filmed. 01:03:10 No artifacts or anything. 01:03:55 Anyway, TNG from season 2 onwards is good. Preferably without Wesley. Definitely not anywhere where Wesley saves the day. 01:04:06 Wesley is the worst 01:04:13 With his faggy rainbow sweater 01:04:27 Even Wil Wheaton hated Wesley. 01:04:33 I liked The Game 01:04:38 Sgeo: FUCK YOU 01:04:45 ^ Example of the correct use of profanity. 01:04:46 But then again, I haven't seen that many Wesley saves the day eps, so 01:05:07 "The Game" 01:05:14 Oh 01:05:20 Well, thank you very much 01:05:28 Wesley was by far the worse character on TNG. 01:05:49 Didn't Wesley do something that got someone killed? 01:05:59 God damned Gene Wesley Roddenberry. 01:06:07 Yeah: being that annoying can kill. 01:06:19 Fun fact: I thought Chekov was French. 01:06:20 No joke. 01:06:32 Nuclearrr wessels 01:06:32 He was such a smooth Frenchman, too, right up until I realised his name was "Chekov". 01:06:36 Hah. 01:06:56 Well, it's not like they could actually get a *Russian* to do the role. 01:07:01 I mean, Cold War and all. 01:07:13 But that was the point of Star Trek :o 01:07:22 To present a perfect future where everyone is at peace 01:07:25 Except aliens 01:07:27 Fuck aliens 01:07:50 Heh, an American played Chekov in (2009), too. 01:07:50 Don't mind if I do! 01:07:53 XD 01:08:25 'Some of Wesley's The Wesley-ness is accidental: Six scripts had been drafted for the "Wesley saves the day" plot, with the intention that the best elements of each would be combined to make one character-focus episode on Wesley — none of them were especially good, but it was hoped that there would be enough good material between them to make a single episode. A writer's strike dried up the supply of scripts for the first season, so all six d 01:08:27 Sgeo: Which aliens are we talkking about here? 01:08:32 *groan* 01:08:40 pikhq: "all six d--" but I get the jist. Ha. 01:08:49 *gist 01:09:25 Sgeo: *talking 01:09:45 '[...] so all six drafts were completed and produced, at which point Wesley's characterization was firmly entrenched. ' 01:10:33 So wouldn't that make that badness just a season 1 thing? 01:10:55 No, because Wesley continued being Wesley until he left. 01:12:09 No, that just made Season 1 all the worse. 01:13:04 Even non-Wesley, bearded-Riker episodes can be really bad. e.g. Sub Rosa. 01:14:53 Yeah, but a Wesley episode is instabad. As is babyface Riker. 01:15:18 Maybe eliminating Deanna-focused episodes would trim it down to almost universally good. 01:15:58 Ugh, Troi. 01:16:06 The character who had *no reason to exist*. 01:16:12 Sub Rosa was Troi-focused, for instance. 01:16:34 Why the hell would you need a *counselor* on the bridge at all times? 01:17:02 Picard: Computer, what day is it? 01:17:02 Computer: The first day of the rest of your life. 01:17:02 Picard: GRRRRR.... 01:17:02 Troi: It's Stardate 47988, Captain. 01:17:02 Picard: *Thank* you, Counsellor. At last your genius for stating the obvious has come in useful. 01:17:03 --Five-Minute "All Good Things..." 01:17:06 And she didn't even... Counsel. 01:17:25 (Note: Worf is the one who actually says it in the episode. :P) 01:18:22 [[Picard: Yes... yes, of course. It's all coming back now. I'm readjusting to this time -- 01:18:22 Picard: -- period. Dammit! 01:18:23 Yar: I'm sorry, sir, I'm afraid I don't understand. Are you swearing about punctuation or feminine problems? 01:18:23 Picard: Tasha! You're alive! 01:18:23 Yar: Um... that's correct, sir. 01:18:24 Picard: At last. I've always wanted to tell you how much I miss -- 01:18:26 Picard: -- your presence on the bridge. 01:18:30 Troi: It is? Really? Oh, Captain, you remembered my birthday! I'll go get it right away! 01:18:32 Picard: This had better be the last time we do that gag.]] 01:18:34 Oh, dammit, I'll end up quoting the entire thing again if I don't stop. 01:18:36 Here: http://www.fiveminute.net/nextgen/fiver.php?ep=allgoodthings 01:18:42 It's more like twenty-minute "All Good Things...", though. 01:18:49 Wasn't she useful in Encounter at Farpoint? 01:18:58 [Note: I've only seen a part of that ep] 01:19:07 Whenever counselling was done in TNG, it was *Guinan*... 01:19:09 *groan* 01:19:12 "-- your presence on the bridge" -> "your present's on the bridge" has to be the cheesiest thing I've ever seen. 01:19:28 alise, I didn't even notice that >.> 01:19:33 It took me a while. 01:19:58 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:20:04 Sgeo: You may forget all parts of Encounter at Farpoint which did not have Q. 01:20:15 Dammit Libertine's Q is hot. 01:20:18 Qu Qu Qu Qu 01:25:19 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 01:25:41 Fun fact: "Te'arl grayaucht" means "[Colour of tea] bitter water" in Picardian. 01:26:12 pikhq: Is "bloody" bleeped on US TV? 01:27:16 No, afaik, but I've never heard it used 01:27:23 It's a very British word 01:27:40 Indeed; Scotty says it in an episode of TNG, at least, which was broadcast on US TV, obviously. 01:27:58 Bloody and naff are the greatest British English-only words there are. 01:28:46 It occurs to be that bloody not used in that context isn't particularly British 01:29:21 Well, that meaning. 01:34:59 alise: I actually use "bloody" all the time. 01:35:28 I don't even know what "naff" means though, so *eh* 01:35:42 Naff is ... rubbish, in a way, but more British. 01:35:59 Like "supremely mediocre" if it was an active badness rather than a passive... middleness. 01:36:03 Ineffectual. 01:36:03 "Rubbish" is already pretty British. 01:36:11 Yes, but even more British. 01:36:45 If you look at a new language that's almost exactly like Python or whatever, just cleaned up slightly and with some boring new features, and it makes you go "bleh" and "meh" and "feh" when looking at it... if it's not terrible, it's naff. 01:36:49 Apparently in (certain parts of) Canada they use "litter" to mean what Americans mean when they say "garbage" and what Brits mean when they say "rubbish", rather than what either of us mean when we say "litter". 01:37:08 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/naff#Adjective 01:39:27 narf? 01:39:46 "Narf?"? 01:40:08 * Sgeo knows 1 TV show that alise has never heard of 01:40:42 Oh, Pinky and the Brain. 01:40:49 I just didn't recognise the reference. Yes, of course I know of Pinky and the Brain. 02:00:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:08:49 alise subscribe: Chat do: [ :ann | self say: ann text ]. 02:09:58 Feh. 02:28:02 pikhq: In contrast to the US' cursing conservatism, the word "bollocks" was deemed to be acceptable in "Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols". 02:28:07 (in the UK, of course) 02:30:24 "Bollocks" is acceptable on TV at any time here :P 02:30:29 Since it's, like, not even a word here. 02:31:05 Bollocks to that. 02:31:20 It's quite offensive here. 02:31:40 "logorrhoea" is actually a term, AWESOME 02:35:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scared_Straight! ;; "fuck" broadcast on US TV in 1978 02:42:09 alise: I've seen "bloody" rated Y. 02:42:49 And I do use "bloody". 02:43:00 I was aware of "naff" but never used it myself. 02:43:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scared_Straight! ;; "fuck" broadcast on US TV in 1978 02:43:27 ANSWER THIS 02:43:37 Predates FCC obscenity rules! 02:43:40 why does floating point use a binary exponent? why not use something like 10 or 16? 02:43:48 pikhq: But Carlin said you couldn't say "fuck" beforehand! 02:43:53 calamari: cuz computers use binary. 02:44:09 alise: duh.. not really an answer 02:44:12 :) 02:44:13 Yes. Sometime after he made that joke, *they decided to use that list*. 02:44:32 calamari: well 16 is equivalent to binary for this purpose 02:44:36 * Sgeo still doesn't know the recommended way to do callback stuff in Squeak 02:44:47 oerjan: not really.. 16 gives a larger range 02:45:04 When he had started making that joke, there were no country-wide regulations on it... 02:45:30 And he was sometimes arrested *for giving that joke*... 02:45:31 calamari: but you'd get less precision for numbers of the form 1. ... * 16^n 02:45:46 would you? 02:46:00 i suggest we use base 1 for the exponent 02:46:04 that's the best of all worlds, really 02:46:19 alise: *Oh god*. The FCC settled on that list because Carlin's routine was put on the radio and a *single person* was offended that his son heard such filth. 02:47:13 Single person that complained, you mean 02:47:23 Well, yes. 02:48:04 Anyways. Because of this mess, all live broadcasts in the US are actually on a delay so they can bleep. 02:48:29 (ever since the nipple-slip and Bono saying "fuck" on live TV...) 02:48:56 oh no 02:49:02 calamari: the mantissa would have to be 1 <= m < 16, if you then have a fixed number of bits after the point then the higher numbers would have less precision compared to in binary. 02:49:10 er 02:49:14 the lower numbers 02:49:17 coppro becomeForward: nil. 02:50:09 oerjan: I guess I'm confused then 02:50:33 pikhq: Last Christmas, when the whole "X-Factor (music reality show thing here) contestant winner" vs "really old Rage Against the Machine single" battle for the Christmas #1 space on the charts was ongoing (this actually happened, I am not shitting you: Rage Against the Machine won!), Rage Against the Machine were asked to play the song live on radio; it ends with a succession of lines that use the word "fuck" rather a lot. This was in the day time; they h 02:50:33 ad been asked ... not to include that part. They included it. All that happened was a fadeout and the presenters going "Bad band! Bad!". What would the reaction in the US be? Nuclear fallout? 02:50:38 I was trying to change floating point so that I could have 8 digits of decimal precision in 32 bits 02:51:21 I wasn't able to do it until I change it from 2^x to 10^x 02:51:33 * Sgeo attempts assassination of everyone in #squeak 02:51:43 alise: Fines, fines, more fines, and a possible loss of broadcasting license. 02:51:53 Also, in the news, nuclear fallout. 02:51:58 Actually, I may have killed everyone on IRC 02:52:03 nope 02:52:07 * calamari lives! 02:52:21 We fucking remember someone's nipple being shown on TV for a few seconds, for crissake... 02:52:29 Sorry, frames. 02:52:50 Stupid nipple decoration thingy 02:52:50 Erm 02:53:32 anyhow.. it seems like I can leave 28 bits for the number and 4 bits for placing the decimal point, and I should be able to represent positive and negative numbers from .00000001 to 99999999. 02:53:39 calamari: well 10^x doesn't really make sense unless you use decimal for the mantissa part too 02:54:51 alise: Oh, yes, the censorship also applies to radio. 02:55:16 alise: Music on the radio ends up either having the cursing removed from the voice track in the for-radio mix or a bleep. 02:56:23 oerjan: I guess that could be 1 bit for sign, 4 bits for decimal place, 27 bits for number. how can I translate that into a 2^x? 02:56:42 * Sgeo attempts assassination of everyone in #squeak <-- What did they do this time? 02:56:45 with only 4 bits of 2^x, I can't make big numbers 02:56:50 alise, nothing 02:56:57 Except assist me 02:57:07 Chatter allInstancesDo: [ :chatter | chatter becomeForward: nil ]. 02:57:07 best to do "String new" just in case become: or becomeForward: is two-way 02:57:19 Randal Schwartz! 02:57:20 he's cool 02:57:28 & quite famous 02:57:33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randal_L._Schwartz 02:57:59 popularised "Just another Perl hacker,", invented the Schwartzian transform 02:58:07 sued by Oregon :P 02:58:22 co-author of the camel book, Programming Perl 02:58:23 etc. 02:58:27 (and now Squeaker ofc) 02:58:28 * oerjan doesn't really know floating point beyond that it's m*2^x with presumably fixed no. of bits for each of m and x 02:58:50 oerjan: that's it, basically 02:59:03 I cannot even fathom why Comedy Central does the bleeping. 02:59:27 (keep in mind they air South Park. Which used to have the record for instances of fuck per minute.) 02:59:36 It hits the fan? 03:00:01 I think they used the word "shit" either 0 or 1 times in that ep. I think 03:00:05 Or maybe a lot 03:00:07 I have no idea 03:00:16 "0, 1, or a lot" 03:00:18 Sgeo: The movie. 03:00:36 alise, well, that does exclude 2 or 3 03:00:43 Still has record for instances of fuck in an animated film. 03:01:03 (it lost the record for total to a documentary on the word.) 03:01:31 !haskell 9*2*10^8 03:01:41 !smalltalk 03:01:44 1800000000 03:01:51 !smalltalk Transcript show: 'Hi!'. 03:01:53 !python 1+2 03:01:56 Mmkay. "It Hits The Fan" had 162 instances of shit. 03:01:56 aww 03:01:58 !haskell 2^32 03:01:59 4294967296 03:02:01 !help 03:02:01 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 03:02:10 !help languages 03:02:11 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 03:02:11 A counter runs in the episode. 03:02:14 calamari: well there _should_ be room in there, somehow :D 03:02:43 oerjan: yeah somehow the 2^x wastes it whereas my non-standard representation fits it 03:02:53 Sgeo: maybe you didn't notice because it was bleeped? 03:03:05 coppro, I never saw the ep 03:03:18 calamari: i suspect those 8-digit calculators use decimal internally, anyway 03:03:24 Just vaguely knew the name, and that it was related to the word "shit" 03:03:30 And something about a subversion? 03:03:56 Okay, what about this floating point structure: 03:04:02 some of the floating point is dedicated to /specifying the base/ 03:04:06 i.e. we have (mantissa, base, exponent) 03:04:13 LOL 03:04:18 presumably base is quite small, mantissa is quite big, and exponent is medium 03:04:18 this is going to be cool 03:04:25 calamari: yeah /that/ would be awesome :D 03:04:50 actually ... that sounds like a good idea 03:04:54 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:04:56 Quick, someone tell me why it sucks. 03:05:16 well until you try to do arithmetic with two numbers of different bases 03:05:23 oerjan: well there is a decimal32 sstandard but it only gives 7 digits of precision 03:05:28 calamari: use hackego for python 03:05:37 alise: how is it stored? Binary Coded BASEN? 03:05:46 `help 03:05:46 coppro: just binary 03:05:53 ok 03:05:56 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 03:06:01 coppro: we store (m,b,e) for m * b^e in binary 03:06:10 ok 03:06:19 don't forget a sign bit 03:06:27 *(s,b,e) 03:06:28 coppro: yes 03:06:34 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 03:06:38 (+-,s,b,e) for +-(m * b^e) 03:06:50 hmm 03:06:53 in IEEE 03:07:09 we have s:24b 03:07:21 !haskell 2^32 / (9*2*10^8) 03:07:22 2.386092942222222 03:07:23 which leaves 7b for exponent 03:08:05 * Sgeo wonders if he should try VisualWorks 03:08:17 calamari: there is so little extra room that you need to pack tightly, a decimal standard would probably use some way that made it easy to get at the decimal digits, using too much room 03:08:27 so for 64-bit, we have s:48.77b; taking that as 48, we have 15b left for the exponent 03:08:58 now let's say we take away 6 bits from the exponent, leaving there be 9b for the exponent 03:09:03 these 6 bits are the base 03:09:21 say if it uses 4 bits per digit, then you get just 8 and 1 is probably for exponent 03:09:54 oerjan: yeah I figured out for an old 8 digit calculator screen it can represent 1255333573 different values, requiring 30.2254, or 31 bits 03:10:19 well 03:10:20 that's with the negative sign eating a digit 03:10:21 that gives us (2^48 - 1) * 61^511 maximum 03:10:30 oh wait the exponent is signed 03:10:37 well, whatever, it's a big number 03:10:45 oerjan: any flaws to this representation? apart from difficult arithmetic :P 03:11:24 alise: well there will probably be some numbers with multiple representations 03:11:49 meh, who cares :D 03:12:29 Hm 03:12:49 Apparently, it will take about an hour for VW to install 03:13:14 When I think "more professional than Squeak/Pharo", I was kind of hoping that that wouldn't include the customary IDE slowness 03:13:21 And install slowness 03:13:27 Sgeo: VisualWorks sucks. 03:13:35 Pharo is professional enough. 03:13:40 alise, besides being proprietary, howso? 03:13:51 It just does :P 03:14:04 They came up with the Announcements framework, which I _will_ be using in my AW SDK bindings 03:15:44 Well, we seem to have done 20min in the space of 2min 03:15:47 So that's a good sign 03:19:22 no, that's a sign of bad time dilation. we might be falling into a black hole! 03:23:20 EsotericChannel subscribe: Chat do: [:ann | ann chatter becomeForward: nil ]. "MUAHAHAHA! ANYONE SPEAKS, THEY DIE!" 03:24:30 what are you talAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa 03:28:29 It's now stuck at 8 sec remaining 03:28:31 * Sgeo dies 03:31:29 Brains 03:38:53 Does anyone here play Battle for Wesnoth? My friend and I would like to find a group to play in. 03:44:06 I tried it once or twice, I think 03:44:17 Love the music, esp. The Dangerous Symphony 03:46:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:46:46 Warrigal: Well ... AnMaster. 03:46:57 Warrigal: So yeah, nobody. 03:47:01 :P 03:47:11 Sgeo: I don't suppose you're up for a game right now? 03:47:22 No :/ 03:47:32 Need to eat and sleep soon 03:53:17 Gregor: in case you hasn't already found this http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ 03:53:49 I had not. 03:53:51 Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. 04:10:36 How does one configure the web browser XChat opens links in? 04:12:57 Can Hackiki do Smalltalk? 04:13:36 Can my toaster do Smalltalk???? 04:14:06 (Toaster new) insert: myToast; toast. 04:14:25 Hmm, maybe that should be add: 04:14:46 I'm glad Sgeo is finally growing taste in languages. It's like watching a wittle baby gwow up! >_> 04:14:56 Next you'll discover Lisp. 04:15:56 Lisp is more implementation-dependent, and there are so many, than Smalltalk! 04:17:06 Sgeo: Hackiki can do anything the system can do, however, most Smalltalk environment aren't exactly known for integrating well into their environment. GNU Smalltalk is the exception. 04:17:14 And GNU Smalltalk sucks. 04:17:17 Yup 04:17:23 Sgeo: Smalltalk is very implementation-dependent. 04:17:26 Less so now, but still pretty dependent. 04:17:32 Especially considering EVERYTHING IS INSIDE A VM IMAGE. 04:17:39 What's that you say? File outs? Hahahaha... 04:17:54 Monticello is gaining support for more systems, though, I gather. 04:18:02 Isn't the format for those defined by ANSI Smalltalk? 04:18:20 For fileouts? Yes. 04:18:27 Barely "portability", though, more like an export format. 04:18:49 I don't see how Monticello would help the portability issue, though :/ 04:19:16 Make it easier to bring incompatible code into various implementations? 04:19:53 Allow collaboration between people using different implementations. 04:20:05 That's assuming all the system classes are the same, which isn't such a reasonable assumption, but is getting better. 04:20:23 More to the point, though, nobody uses anything but VisualWorks and Squeak/Pharo, and nobody doing open-source stuff uses VisualWorks. 04:20:39 So it's not such a huge problem, considering the Smalltalk community has quite a bit of inertia (Pharo is long overdue) so it's unlikely to change. 04:20:57 You can trace Squeak's lineage directly back to Smalltalk-80. 04:23:17 -!- sshc_ has joined. 04:24:51 How much of a chance do you think I have of getting other AW people to start using Smalltalk when I showcase the advantages? 04:25:50 They sound hideously stupid, so 0. 04:25:56 Especially since it's so ... different. 04:26:06 "It looks like a kid made it, and how do I save to a file?" 04:26:14 "What is this browser thing? Where do I type class {?" 04:26:53 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:26:59 alise, you never met another AW SDK programmer 04:28:02 Ah, Smalltalk. 04:28:21 Though I don't *use* it much, I must admit that it has much awesome. 04:28:45 * Sgeo still needs to get a grip on thisContext 04:29:02 Pity it almost inherently is its own completely seperate environment. 04:29:15 pikhq, that's what makes it so fun! 04:29:26 >.> 04:29:42 Of course, this just means that Smalltalk should run on bare hardware. 04:29:43 :) 04:29:59 Hmm. Doesn't static typing usually enable IDEs to be much smarter? 04:30:09 Yet Smalltalks are often known for their IDEness 04:31:26 You know what makes for a great IDE? Being able to edit everything at runtime. 04:32:12 Of course, this just means that Smalltalk should run on bare hardware. 04:32:14 as it did originally 04:32:28 alise: Quite. 04:39:58 -!- sshc has joined. 04:42:49 -!- sshc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:53:04 Hmm. Should I go back to horrifying the Europeans? 04:53:12 Yes. 04:53:20 http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/files/images/prison-bunk.jpg 04:53:25 We use INCHes here 04:53:26 American prison cell. 04:54:05 http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1000000/images/_1004547_uk_cell150.jpg 04:54:06 British 04:54:22 http://sydwalker.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/swedish_prison_cell-300x203.jpg 04:54:23 pikhq: http://www.jabulela.com/files/media/norwegian-prison4.jpg Norwegian prison cell. 04:54:25 Swedish 04:54:28 ha 04:54:43 Gotta love Scandinavia. 04:54:54 i'm moving to sweden then stealing tons of shit 04:54:54 brb 04:54:57 :P 05:05:39 -!- jix has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 05:10:20 DIAERESISESERS 05:12:18 D ... aresis. 05:12:52 dïäëräësïs 05:16:21 pikhq: So how come movies get to say "fuck"? 05:17:37 alise: They aren't controlled by broadcast regulations 05:17:44 neither is cable tv 05:17:49 yet they still bleep curses 05:17:52 says pikhq 05:18:25 most cable stations are controlled by big networks, as I understand it 05:19:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:19:49 -!- augur has joined. 05:21:02 alise: Hysterical raisins. 05:21:22 ah. 05:21:25 fuck the us 05:22:17 Hm 05:22:24 HRM 05:22:29 I want Erlang-style concurrency without weird receive{} blocks 05:22:46 I have found no information on the Actor model in Smalltalk 05:22:55 Check the Haskell FAQ on lambdabot. 05:23:18 I know how the Actor model works in general... I think 05:24:24 Qu Qu Qu Qu Qu Q Q Q Q Qu Qu Qu Qu 05:24:27 pikhq: Why would that help him? 05:24:37 alise: Because Haskell Can Do That 05:24:38 :P 05:25:00 Qu Qu Qu Qu Qu Qu “Indeed," said the Ambassador, “‘Qu’ does look appealing in this typeface.” 05:26:23 Sgeo: Why don't you want receive blocks? 05:29:09 I think encouraging someone to learn Smalltalk at the same time I'm teaching him C# might be a bad idea 05:30:07 Given select: = Where(), collect: = Select() 05:30:15 hah 05:37:00 You're not teaching him. (Probably. Unless you're a natural-born teacher, which I'm not sure exists.) 05:43:01 http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP/Deolalikar.pdf Serious attempt at P!=NP proof by a respected computer scientist at HP that has withstood some criticism so far, although nobody knows anything about whether it works or not, of course. 05:43:06 We need people here to look over it :-) 05:43:46 http://forums.activeworlds.com/showthread.php?p=128618#post128618 05:44:22 do: [ :ann | myInstance say: (ann name), ': ', (ann message).]. 05:44:23 remove first . 05:44:24 it is redundant 05:44:32 also 05:44:35 remove the ()s in the ,s 05:44:35 alise: I've looked at it, though not much. 05:44:46 do: [ :ann | myInstance say: ann name, ': ', ann message ]. 05:44:56 pikhq: Any opinions? 05:45:06 alise, these people have probably never seen Smalltalk before 05:45:18 Just do it, I'm improving your Smalltalk. 05:45:22 Although that might be an argument for making it look cleaner 05:45:24 :| 05:45:28 And I know the precedent rules 05:46:15 It's about style, now do it >_> 05:46:20 It hurts my eyes as-is :P 05:46:49 Fixed 05:47:01 alise: Good God. 05:47:08 It's ok to have a constructor not use new, right? 05:47:16 pikhq: ? 05:47:28 Sgeo: It's stylistic not to. 05:47:37 Never thought an even plausible proof of that would float around. :P 05:47:44 "File named: ...", for instance, would be conventional. 05:47:53 Or perhaps "File withName: ...", if you're creating a file and not just reading it from disk. 05:49:00 Ah 05:50:57 I showed you a screenshot of MagsBot once 05:52:07 do: [ :ann | myInstance say: ann name, ': ', ann message]. 05:52:13 either remove the spaces from the whole [...] block (preferable) 05:52:15 or put a space after message 05:52:16 I suggest 05:52:19 do: [:ann | myInstance say: ann name, ': ', ann message]. 05:52:22 normally no spaces are added. 05:52:26 And YES this is important :| 05:53:16 Maybe I should add some comments 05:53:16 Sgeo: :|| 05:57:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:58:17 Or maybe I should eat my pizza and go to bed 05:58:43 It's 5:54. 05:58:45 I think likewise. 05:59:38 Oh, uh 05:59:50 My sample completely forgets everything required by the AW SDK 06:00:59 Fix it and fix it according to my suggestions :P 06:01:00 SLAVE 06:01:02 Anyway, goodnight. 06:01:02 Bye. 06:01:04 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:39:43 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:46:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:57:36 poll: what animal will Ubuntu 11.04 be? 06:59:00 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:59:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:00:18 Nyala? Nanger? 07:04:03 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopmentCodeNames has that list of suggestions; I don't think they've picked one yet? 07:05:09 "Nagging Nag if more pop-up reminders are added to the desktop" -- I smell some bitterness. 07:05:42 Naughty Nymph 07:07:15 For some reason there seems to be quite many Naughty N's suggested. 07:07:25 "Naughty Nightelf -- just think about the artwork we could make" 07:07:48 I'm sure that'd promote Linux-on-desktop well. 07:08:43 Narwhal seems like a popular animal, too. 07:09:24 -!- tombom has joined. 07:09:33 -!- tombom has quit (Changing host). 07:09:33 -!- tombom has joined. 07:23:41 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 07:37:01 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:53:27 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:13:37 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 08:34:47 hmm, http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP.htm is interesting 08:34:54 it's a list of proofs of P=NP, and of P!=NP 08:35:09 heh 08:35:27 also, proofs that it's undecidable 08:35:29 and a few other things 08:35:45 it's gutsy that the guy published it publicly without perr review 08:35:47 *peer 08:36:28 "Proof by contradiction. Assume P=NP. Let y be a proof that P=NP. The proof y can be verified in polynomial time by a competent computer scientist, the existence of which we assert. However, since P=NP, the proof y can be generated in polynomial time by such computer scientists. Since this generation has not yet occurred (despite attempts by such computer scientists to produce a proof), we have a contradiction." 08:41:58 haha 08:42:43 perhaps it just has a really large constant factor? 08:44:33 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:14:16 -!- choochter has joined. 10:02:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:10:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:11:24 -!- augur has joined. 10:14:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:14:51 -!- augur has joined. 10:25:19 i left it way too late to chip in but i have a friend who thinks he may have an O(n^4) algorithm for turning NP into P 10:25:49 he's probably wrong 10:27:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:28:17 And "probably wrong" is very close to "provably wrong"; it has a Levenshtein distance of just one. 10:28:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:28:55 hmm, that gives a Levenshtein-1 proof of P!=NP, doesn't it? 10:34:46 [Equal]: In 2005, Dr. Joachim Mertz proved P=NP. His main contribution is a linear programming formulation of the TSP with O(n^5) variables and O(n^4) constraints. <-- weird... 11:16:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 11:22:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:34:31 /o/ 11:34:31 | 11:34:31 /`\ 11:34:42 fungot 11:34:43 Phantom_Hoover: i wish i knew where fix point combinators? :) fnord/ fnord/ babylonian cuneiform was just added in unicode 5.0, so few major lisps? ( networking and concurrency, despite my usual polemics i still think it's kind of hard 11:57:01 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 12:06:46 \m/ \m/ 12:06:53 \m/ \m/ 12:06:57 \m/ \m/ 12:07:02 \m/ \m/ 12:07:10 /m\ /m\ 12:07:13 ... 12:07:35 Oh hi 12:11:58 Sgeo, what are you doing? 12:12:47 Trying to trigger myndzi 12:12:53 /o/ 12:12:53 | 12:12:53 |\ 12:13:09 Also being frustrated at AW SDK's clinically insane model for callbacks 12:14:32 http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=SDK_Asynchronous_Operation 12:15:20 Note that when you call a blocking function synchroneously, it can trigger events and callbacks 12:15:36 I wish I were joking 12:16:08 I'm planning to use a Monitor to make the pain go away 12:21:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:22:11 I just remembered that some "events" in the AW SDK are actually callbacks, although not termed such 12:29:37 Sgeo: Are you sure your name isn't just too short? 12:29:42 \m/ \m/ 12:29:43 `\o/ 12:29:43 | 12:29:43 (_|`\ 12:29:43 |_) 12:30:12 \m/ \m/ 12:30:12 `\o/ 12:30:12 | 12:30:12 /`\ 12:30:12 (_| |_) 12:33:04 Narwhal seems like a popular animal, too. 12:33:14 duh, everyone from reddit would suggest that 12:33:57 it's gutsy that the guy published it publicly without perr review 12:34:38 it seems likely he didn't mean to, he was just sending it to other researchers to look through but the email got seriously out of hand 12:35:51 and someone _else_ put it on the web iiuc 12:39:05 * oerjan saw at least one reddit comment by someone who _had_ read it and was worried about one particular point in the proof, something claimed to be polynomial in size 12:39:27 Like someone said yesterday, in the context of embarrassing pictures: "don't worry: what happens on the internet, stays on the internet". 12:39:40 XD 12:41:18 wtf xkcd 12:43:10 oerjan: Not cool, not funny, not a good comic? 12:43:34 just wtf :D 12:45:40 -!- fruitbag` has joined. 12:45:54 Would it be possible to device a quicksort algorithm in Brainfuck? 12:46:03 fruitbag`, probably 12:46:11 You'd go mad in the process, though. 12:46:12 as long as you don't interpret "quick" too literally :D 12:47:07 fruitbag`, the complete lack of anything approaching a function call would be a significant barrier. 12:47:23 hm, given the cost of moving around in brainfuck, might not bubble sort really be optimal for it? 12:48:08 oerjan, *everything* has a huge cost in BF. 12:48:27 well i mean asymptotically 12:48:35 Well, possibly 12:48:44 Swapping would have a pretty high cost. 12:48:44 actually, I don't think quicksort would be too difficult in BF 12:48:47 since you have to move across things, you can just as well swap while you're doing it 12:50:54 Mezzacotta seems to be on a good run at the moment... 12:51:42 * oerjan didn't notice anything particularly good today, although he always gives the mad scientists at least 50% 12:54:41 Well, "good" in the sense of "fairly coherent". 12:56:12 mooz has written a pretty nice quicksort in Befunge-93; even if it's a bit limited due to the 80x25 playfield. Admittedly that is a far more expressive and less-painful-to-write language. 12:57:19 You can find it nicely syntax-highlighted at http://web.archive.org/web/20061205193036/kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/qsort.html courtesy of archive.org. 12:59:40 I guess it is Funge98-compatible in the sense that it can sort more data in a system like that. 13:03:22 Dear Monitor: FUCK YOU 13:04:01 So, how would I do an equivalent to a for loop in BF? 13:04:25 fruitbag`, set a cell as a counter, then decrement in []s. 13:04:59 Well, that's not a C-style for loop. 13:05:39 Counting down to 0 is usually easier, though. 13:06:21 * Sgeo curses at http://pastebin.com/LDyEkQpa 13:06:31 (Easier than up, with a test at the end, I mean.) 13:06:57 Brainfuck + lambda calculus. It must be done. 13:09:30 fruitbag`, there are a few high-level to BF compilers, but they're underdeveloped. 13:11:17 Anyone want to help me? 13:11:58 Sgeo, what language? 13:12:05 Smalltalk 13:12:16 Then I cannot help. 13:14:04 Where you are going, I will not follow. 13:14:59 Befunge-93 is such a queer language 13:15:21 fruitbag`, queer in the Enid Blyton sense? 13:17:25 Indeed 13:17:34 August would be another word 13:18:19 There are stranger languages out there. 13:18:34 Including ones that the inventors themselves don't understand. 13:18:57 is that a Feather reference? 13:19:22 Indeed. 13:21:37 I am tempted to shamelessly self-advertise the befunge-bot to yet another new victim. 13:21:51 fungot, tell fruitbag` about yourself 13:21:51 Phantom_Hoover: it's your only potential competitor and there's no javascript or anything. they make 13:22:05 ^source 13:22:05 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 13:22:26 Phantom_Hoover: Good, now I don't have to do that myself. 13:22:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:22:39 (And it is true what e says: there's no javascript or anything.) 13:32:53 Fascinating stuff 13:33:20 The statement '[-]' decrements the value at a point until zero, right? 13:34:34 -!- jix has joined. 13:34:38 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit). 13:35:03 yep 13:35:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 13:35:12 -!- jix has joined. 13:36:40 * Sgeo growls 13:36:55 Monitor is reentrant. Apparently I want a non-reentrant Monitor 13:40:46 fruitbag`, [->+] is the basic copying algorithm. 13:41:18 s/copying/moving/ 13:41:32 * Sgeo decides that Phantom_Hoover is as sleep deprived as I am 13:41:48 Sgeo, no, not really. 13:42:08 I had a fairly good night's sleep last night. 13:42:23 How, exactly, is that supposed to go back to the old cell to copy more than 1? 13:42:43 Sgeo, oops. 13:42:52 fruitbag`, ignore everything I say from now on. 13:46:30 -!- fruitbag has joined. 13:48:40 -!- fruitbag` has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:17:36 Sorry, Phantom_Hoover... 14:17:46 Why...? 14:17:47 I wasn't ignoring you 14:17:59 Something came up and I was AFK 14:18:13 You were supposed to ignore me! 14:18:28 Alright, so you raised the question of moving a byte from one cell to another 14:18:36 What is the general algorithm? 14:18:45 Yeah, there needed to be a < at the end of the loop. 14:19:04 Uh, [->+<], I think. 14:20:29 - was decrement that pointer or memory cell? 14:20:42 That is, decrement contents or pointer? 14:21:00 Brainfuck doesn't have pointers. 14:21:06 Of course 14:21:21 What I meant was the region being pointed 14:21:47 - decrements the cell under the tape head. 14:25:01 It is a bit annoying that it kills the old value, though. Actually copying a cell tends to involve something uglier like [>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-] and need a spare cell there. 14:26:04 Yes, that makes sense 14:26:25 Bascially, we are decrementing the contents from one cell and incrementing by the same amount in another 14:26:30 Until the source cell is zero 14:29:07 Suppse that I wanted to traverse eight consequtive cells... 14:29:37 >>>>>>>>, in essence. 14:29:40 Another sometimes useful construction is >[-]+<[>-<]>[xxx-]<; that does xxx if current cell (at start) is zero; it's basically [xxx[-]] except the test is negated. 14:30:22 Whoops, that [>-<] should be [>-<[-]] there. 14:30:59 It also looks like an angry horizontal-smiley. 14:31:54 (Away; getting from work to home now.) 14:39:35 Alright, so let me get this straight.... 14:42:01 But, man -- wouldn't that decrememnt the contents of each consequtive cell by one? 14:43:10 * Phantom_Hoover prefers functional esolangs for this very reason 14:44:34 fruitbag, are you talking about fizzie's construction? 14:46:37 It sets the cell being tested to 0 and the next one to 0 or 1; the xxx can have its own side-effects. 14:51:30 Alright, so how do we incremement the position while decrementing the contents of a cell statically? 14:53:15 I'm not sure whether arbitrary lookup is even possible in BF, at least without the tape being explicitly structured. 15:01:33 [>-<]: "Increment the pointer, decrement the contents of the new position and go back until zero is reached." 15:02:00 This doesn't do much 15:02:07 Yeah, fizzie got that wrong. 15:02:15 It should be [>-<[-]] 15:03:03 Alright, so... 15:04:03 So, what exactly happens with that one, Phantom_Hoover 15:04:55 Phantom_Hoover: it is possible 15:05:01 (arbitrary lookup, that is) 15:05:05 ais523, oh? 15:05:10 the trick is to move all the data along the tape 15:05:16 in order to give room for a bunch of temporaries 15:05:24 ais523, destructive as hell, surely? 15:05:30 no 15:05:39 as in, say the tape starts out as abc12345678 15:05:47 where the letters are temporaries and the numbers are data 15:05:51 you change it to 1abc2345678 15:05:59 then 12abc345678 15:06:00 and so on 15:06:05 moving the data past the temporaries 15:06:07 fruitbag, >[-]+<[>-<[-]>is effectively equivalent to logical not. 15:06:41 data[i+1] = !data[i]; data[i] = 0 15:06:58 ais523, oh. 15:07:26 Doing that without some sort of compiler (or even macro system) seems like a road to insanity. 15:07:49 Speaking of sanity, I think mine is on the verge 15:08:05 fruitbag, that's normal here. 15:08:27 Phantom_Hoover: I just want to go somewhere and be alone for a few weeks. 15:08:40 Understandable. 15:10:20 Phantom_Hoover: it's even worse if you live in a big city 15:16:38 How would one reverse a string? 15:18:02 Well, having an effective swap algorithm would be a good start. 15:19:31 -!- relet has joined. 15:19:49 transfer-add a to a temp, b to a, then the temp to b 15:20:00 that's a relatively fast swap 15:20:08 Hmmm 15:23:59 -!- tombom_ has joined. 15:24:01 Well, if you null-terminate the string at each end, that might be enough. 15:26:07 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:29:07 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:29:38 Ah, Mr. Pressey. I've been expecting you. 15:29:43 * Phantom_Hoover strokes his cat 15:31:45 ^rev a string 15:31:46 gnirts a 15:31:49 ^show rev 15:31:50 >,[>,]<[.<] 15:32:00 Okay, so it just reads it in and prints out in the opposite order. 15:37:01 -!- alise has joined. 15:46:17 Interesting stuff 15:47:21 "World disconnects need to be avoided at all costs" 15:47:24 Love you, AWSDK 15:51:39 Is there a variant of BF that allows one to specify numbers? 15:52:02 For instance, if I wanted to place 10 at a cell, instead of doing ++++++++++ I would do 10+ 15:52:12 Probably. 15:52:18 10+[-] 15:52:32 It's easy enough to implement. 15:53:00 there's a bunch of BF abbreviations like that 15:53:13 BF Joust writes it as (+)*10, for instance 15:54:33 Guys, I think I have an idea... 15:54:40 For a for loop 15:55:38 What if we form of statement that would go back to the intial cell? 15:55:55 That is, it would go forward incrementally and at the same time go backward decrementally 15:56:33 We have an intial value, go forward once, go backwad once (and decrement once) then go forward twice and so on 15:56:43 that sounds about right 15:56:53 although it depends on what you're using the loop to do 15:57:24 Initial value, forward once, backward once (decrement by one), forward twice, ... 15:57:36 ais523: traversing a specified number of cells 15:58:30 Initial value, forward once, backward once (decrement by one), forward twice, backward twice (decrement by one), forward by three, backward by three (decrement by one), ... 15:58:39 I'm not sure how to implement this, though 15:59:57 Any thoughts? 16:00:48 So this is for "apply code to n consecutive cells"? 16:01:20 In which case adding 1 to each cell that needs to be operated on and zeroing the next one is probably simpler. 16:05:23 -!- Flonk has joined. 16:07:22 alise, you were the one asking if Star Trek (2009) was worth watching 16:07:27 s/$/?/ 16:08:58 I don't understand why people write 'Brainf*ck' when they are writing academic articles 16:09:03 Surely, we are all adults... 16:09:29 fruitbag, because. We had a long discussion on this last night 16:09:35 Really? 16:09:52 Well, not Brainfuck specifically. Censorship in general. 16:10:13 I see 16:10:24 It's ridiculous, really... 16:10:42 Phantom_Hoover: if vulgar words are used artistically and tastefully, then I'm for it 16:10:50 If they are used just for the sake of being used, I'm against it 16:11:01 Yes, that was the consensus. 16:11:13 fungot's bf interp does the rle-style thing on output, and internally, but it doesn't allow it as input. 16:11:14 fizzie: the code would be 16:11:27 ^def test bf +++++ 16:11:28 Defined. 16:11:34 ^show test 16:11:34 +5 16:11:45 ^help def 16:11:45 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 16:11:59 What langs does it support? 16:12:11 lang=bf/ul, like it says. 16:12:49 No others so far, though I do have a standalone M-code interp I could finish and integrate in theory. 16:15:21 Get a load of this -- I just read that some rich Arab payed 9 million for a number plate that is just "1" 16:16:01 I suppoes there are indeed good ways to spend a shitload of money on 16:20:38 Meh. Someone in Asia payed an inordinate sum for 5. 16:23:20 How much would you have to pay for "" 16:24:07 Well, how much does a 5-digit number cost? 16:25:09 Gregor: I don't think a zero-length numberplate would be allowed 16:25:39 In Unlambda, is `c the current continuation? 16:25:48 no, not exactly 16:25:56 `ci will get you the current continuation 16:26:10 Oh, so c is call/cc. 16:26:13 what c does is to grab a continuation that causes c to retroactively return with the value it's given, and pass it to c's argument 16:26:16 yep, c is call/cc 16:26:22 No output. 16:29:10 There was that photo circling around the internet where someone had written a SQL injection thing on a self-made car numberplate, supposedly to foil those automatical speeding-ticket camera machines. (I doubt it actually work-worked anywhere, but still.) 16:30:31 http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/03/for_traffic_cameras.jpg that is. 16:34:18 What operating system do you guys use? 16:34:37 Every OS under the sun/ 16:36:16 Phantom_Hoover: So, something that runs on a Sparc? 16:36:43 Well, someone here probably does 16:37:13 I have a SPARCstation 5 in the basement, does that count? 16:37:25 (It's nice, but makes a whole lot of noise.) 16:37:27 Yes. Yes it does. 16:39:24 To answer more seriously, my gut tells me the channel might be somewhat Linux-dominated, but I'm sure there are exceptions. 16:39:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:47:35 Well, I'm in my workshop now and we use a multitude of OSes 16:47:45 I was tinkering around with Haiku OS last night 16:48:01 It's a hunka junk 16:54:06 Wha? 16:54:15 Have they ruined BeOS? 16:54:51 Anyway, yes, this channel is Linux + Windows with a few holdouts. 16:54:54 cpressey uses FreeBSD/ 16:54:56 *FreeBSD. 16:55:01 In fact Windows is very rare too. 16:55:20 So I'd say almost all Linux, maybe two to three windows, and ... cpressey. 16:56:18 And a handful of OS X usage. 16:56:30 Distros, not so sure; I'd expect a plurality, but not necessarily a majority, of Ubuntu, one or two Debian (fizzie and Gregor (well, sidux, but it's basically the same thing)), a few on Arch (Deewiant, AnMaster (sometimes), me), 16:56:31 Oh, wait, that'd be the holdouts. 16:56:32 :P 16:56:42 and two on Gentoo (pikhq and AnMaster). 16:56:48 pikhq: Oh yeah; jix is OS X. 16:57:10 The common theme is, of course, UNIX. 16:57:19 comex uses OS X and Linux I think 16:57:32 Warrigal and Slereah use Windows unless Slereah finally got Linux working properly 16:57:38 Sgeo uses Windows because of his shitty games 16:57:43 etc 16:57:50 *etc. 16:58:03 The okkklo pol is Windowsy too, wasn't he? 16:58:15 Yes. But also Ubuntu on one of his laptops. 16:58:18 But Windows now, I think. 16:58:23 Also, "is ... wasn't" 16:58:29 I don't use Windows 16:59:02 I never said you. 16:59:07 I do have that OS X laptop too, but I guess this was more "use for the most of the time" type of question. 16:59:14 Did I say you, coppro? 16:59:15 I will probably download a legit copy through the MSDNAA next year, but not because I like Windows 16:59:15 Hmm 16:59:24 alise: I like to feel important 16:59:26 So I'd say almost all Linux, maybe two to three windows, and ... cpressey. 16:59:26 *Windows 16:59:27 >_> 16:59:27 What machines are you guys using right now? 16:59:28 coppro: :D 16:59:34 zzo38 uses Windows, shockingly. 16:59:43 I'm seriously considering having announcement handlers run in separate processes and all be run in 1 monitor 16:59:44 pikhq: Until he switches to ZZO38NUX 16:59:45 I'm using a Lenovo Thinkpad T60 16:59:51 fruitbag: Handbuilt $300 desktop. 16:59:53 Running Windows 7 17:00:02 Graphics card is shit, everything else is rather reasonable. 17:00:03 fruitbag: Toshiba T150 running Arch Linux. 17:00:17 I have a crappy Acer. I may get a better computer soon, but then my decisionphobia kicks in. 17:00:17 Nice 17:00:22 At least, I think it's a T150. 17:00:23 Acer is quite nice, Phantom_Hoover 17:00:26 alise, please tell me that what I said is close enough to "single-threaded" as to seem pointless 17:00:34 And non-dangerous 17:00:37 13.3" screen, 1.33 GHz ultra-low voltage processor, 4 GiB of RAM. 17:00:43 fruitbag, well, yes. It's fine in all non-graphicsy respects. 17:00:45 I remember having an Acer before it was well-known in 1997 17:00:48 s 17:00:48 It can almost decode 1080p with full AV synchronisation, so I'm happy with its performance. 17:00:54 I have a Microsoft optical mouse plugged in :P 17:01:10 I have a T500 17:01:10 alise: I no longer use Windows. 17:01:10 This box too doesn't really have a model name, and listing all the specs sounds a bit too boresome. 17:01:12 <3 TP 17:01:19 Warrigal: Okay. What do you use? OS X? Linux? 17:01:25 T500 sounds like a terminator model. 17:01:35 Usually OS X, sometimes Linux. 17:01:41 On eBay, there's a bunch of low-grade ARM Windows CE junk 17:01:43 this thing has awful graphics but a beast of a processor (for compiling) 17:01:45 At around 50 17:01:57 fruitbag: Yes, but Why Would You Want To. 17:02:10 I do own a ridiculously shitty "netbook"; 7" screen, ARM, and running a bastardised Debian. 17:02:12 Just for itnkering 17:02:19 I got proper Debian on it but broke it with one tiny error. Sigh. 17:02:23 alise: Chinese stuff? 17:02:28 fruitbag: Nah, "Ubisurfer" 17:02:46 alise, for DESTRUCTION 17:02:48 It's the cheapest netbook ever, apparently. Comes with FREE FREE GPRS internet which /proxies to a Windows server running IE and sends back images of the page/ 17:02:50 (I am not joking.) 17:02:53 Sharp have released a nice device they call the Netwalker, I think 17:02:57 Is that the right name? 17:02:57 Cost like £150 so, ha. 17:03:05 fruitbag: Apparently. 17:03:12 I pretty much hate netbooks. 17:03:12 Free GPRs? I should have thought that they were standard. 17:03:15 There's a Debian in my phone, too. (Okay, so it's Maemo, but close enough.) 17:03:21 Phantom_Hoover: GPRS internet :| 17:03:23 and only for proxying to IE 17:03:31 ARM-based stuff is secure 17:03:37 alise, madness. 17:03:39 Actually, not entirely... 17:03:56 You can never be entirely immune if you are using Mozilla on every architecture 17:03:58 fruitbag: I also own a 2006 iMac, a relatively new low-spec computer in an old, old case that I don't use... 17:04:09 Does an iPhone count as a computer? 17:04:12 fruitbag: Buh? 17:04:15 What does ARM have to do with security? 17:04:19 What does Mozilla have to do with security? 17:04:34 alise: ARM isn't mainstream 17:04:42 Well, yeah, no shit, neither is Linux. 17:04:47 Well, nonexecutable memory is an arch-level security feature 17:04:51 alise: Mozilla is a mainstream browser that is a popular target 17:04:53 But the mainstream argument is bunk; it's UNIX's security model that saves it. 17:04:56 I use Windows here (at work) and Linux (Ubuntu) at home. I used to run primarily FreeBSD, but that was a few years ago now. 17:04:57 But I doubt a RISC would have it. 17:05:04 fruitbag: Once targeted you could only run native code, though, if you wanted to do anything interesting. 17:05:08 So ARM is safe anyway. 17:05:17 Anyway, it's more the OS. 17:05:27 Windows is simply fundamentally flawed wrt its security model... 17:05:36 alise: I once had an idea of a secure setup: two machines -- one for internet-based stuff and another for work and storing data. 17:05:45 Secure setup: Properly sandboxed operating system... 17:06:00 Anyway, if you use Linux and don't run programs with "sudo" unless you know what they do... you're fine# 17:06:02 One machine would never be connected at all 17:06:04 s/#$// 17:06:13 alise: make that mostly fine 17:06:26 Ubuntu makes my home laptop an unenjoyable piece of junk, but at least it runs -- I don't trust any *BSD to install on such a fragile profile of hardware as a laptop, and they all have such crud package managers. 17:06:34 And for backing up, two seperate hard drives 17:06:34 alise, your security features on that OS we were discussing were... mad. 17:06:54 Unless I misremember, mooz had a non-internetted primary-use computer at some point; used a serial link to transfer selected data files when necessary, and never anything executable. 17:06:54 Madder than everything else. 17:06:58 Phantom_Hoover: Mad in a good way, I hope :D 17:07:03 you can still lose your homedir, and kernel exploits could give a root. Kernel exploits are far rare than exploits 17:07:09 alise, EVERYTHING RAN IN RING 0. 17:07:12 Anyway it's basically a blend of E's and Newspeak's security systems. 17:07:20 Phantom_Hoover: Well, yeah. 17:07:26 But that's just to avoid context-switching. 17:07:30 fizzie: sure, but even that serial link could put the machine in danger in some way 17:07:39 fruitbag: No ... it couldn't 17:07:46 OSes don't just randomly run code that comes in on ports. 17:07:52 You're a bit paranoid. 17:07:58 alise: There could be an exploit in the serial port driver, you see! 17:08:16 alise, remember Lumenos? He was more paranoid. 17:08:21 The safest way to transfer data between machines is by a USB flash stick 17:08:23 Right. That's likely, you know, because serial ports are so hard to get right. 17:08:25 So much potential for error. 17:08:35 fruitbag: do you actually put this system into practice? Surely you realise how hopelessly impractical and overly paranoid it is. 17:08:37 He always links to the HTTPS version of Wikipedia. 17:08:48 No, alise... I abandoned the idea 17:08:50 fruitbag: Besides, haha... 17:08:54 fruitbag: There could be an exploit in the USB driver. 17:08:56 fruitbag, THERE COULD BE A BUG IN THE USB DRIVERS! 17:08:56 It's also no safer than a serial link. 17:08:58 Just as much as the serial port driver. 17:09:03 Oh snap, channel-wide epiphany 17:09:15 OH MY GOD... I BELIEVE IN GOD NOW! 17:09:26 Especially if the other computer is Windows; wasn't there that relatively recent USB-stick-driven seek-some-industrial-control-system virus? 17:09:31 I suppose the setup is indeed overly paranoid 17:09:34 (Since those tend to be not connected to the interwebs.) 17:09:34 You should be using transfer methods rooted entirely in userspace! 17:09:38 I daresay that USB drivers are much more likely to be broken than serial port drivers. 17:09:49 Monolithic kernels are innately insecure! 17:09:51 A better idea would be to make the internet machine ARM-based 17:09:55 Something that isn't mainstream 17:09:58 I think you just like ARM too much. 17:10:02 * cpressey blinks 17:10:03 * Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose 17:10:07 You knows, OSes don't just randomly run machine code in ring 0. 17:10:09 Well, I suppose it could be MIPS-based too 17:10:10 Is this conversation actually taking place? 17:10:13 x_x 17:10:13 alise, except yours 17:10:19 Phantom_Hoover: No, it runs Lisp. 17:10:24 cpressey: Apparently. 17:10:30 `addquote * Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose 17:10:35 208|* Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose 17:10:46 Lisp which is compiled, hence making binary distribution the least secure thing ever. 17:10:57 Phantom_Hoover: Er, no. 17:11:03 It only runs source Lisp, which it compiles itself. 17:11:15 There is no method to execute machine code outside of the top security level. 17:11:22 Below, it's just Lisp. 17:11:23 And with a single buffer overflow... 17:11:28 In what? 17:11:35 In something. 17:11:36 What is the least secure programming language? 17:11:41 Phantom_Hoover: That's remarkably vague. 17:11:45 fruitbag, define "secure". 17:11:46 Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure you've thought this exploit through. 17:12:17 alise, well, it is for an OS which hasn't been thought through. 17:12:23 Phantom_Hoover: for instance, since there is no array bounds checking in C, buffer overflow security holes are common 17:12:32 fruitbag, assembly, then. 17:12:44 Or InsecureLang, which I shall invent now. 17:12:47 Phantom_Hoover: Well, I'm 99.9999% certain my security model works. :P 17:13:40 That's a lot of nines; is this one of the 89 % of statistics that are made up on the spot? 17:13:48 All programs will allow the execution of arbitrary code if the word "foo" is typed in at any point of their execution. 17:13:59 alise: The traditional argument against (e.g.) Lisp and for context switching is that Lisp (or any other VM) can't get the performance of compiled code. But the alternative is all that time taken context switching -- I haven't regularly believed the argument. 17:14:00 fizzie: The exact figure is 74%. 17:14:16 cpressey, compiled Lisp. 17:14:25 cpressey: My architecture was a Lisp compiler. Everything ran in ring 0, but because the Lisp had a very strong security model, it was safe. 17:14:51 cpressey: Since you could only pass Lisp to be executed, and there was a very strong total sandboxing system in place, it's even safer than typical UNIX-based OSes. 17:15:07 cpressey: Everything runs in ring 0 because one single call could end up talking to the hardware via e.g. the keyboard driver. 17:15:17 So instead of switching into kernel and back all the time, we just run everything in ring 0. 17:15:43 Is this the "safe assuming no implementation errors" definition of "safe"? 17:16:16 fizzie, it appears so. 17:18:02 -!- alise has left (?). 17:18:04 -!- alise has joined. 17:18:14 Phantom_Hoover: "Lumenos was currently" --Lumenos 17:18:26 Ah, Lumenos. 17:18:34 I have an article on Lumeniki now. 17:18:44 Phantom_Hoover: http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Lumenikilu Fun fact: Capitalising the first letter of a word makes it plural. 17:19:13 Phantom_Hoover: Do link. 17:19:23 http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/PhatTom_Hoover 17:19:30 I love him now just for the picture. 17:22:31 clearly Ubuntu 11.04 will be "Niggardly Nigger" 17:22:42 (NOTE: Only one word in that sentence is hideously offensive.) 17:23:05 alise, have you worked out a sensible way of mapping disc to memory yet? 17:23:12 Phantom_Hoover: Yes. I propose we use flux capacitors. 17:23:44 But we're going for standard x86-64 hardware, aren't we? 17:24:25 Augmented with flux capacitors. 17:24:57 Why not make it a TwoDucks OS, then? 17:25:21 Because of mogulic misappropriation. 17:25:35 -!- derdon has joined. 17:29:08 Does Haskell allow you to define monads that aren't functors? 17:29:22 Yes; this is a flaw. 17:29:32 O.o 17:29:33 I believe Monad originated before Functor, so there is not the dependency. 17:29:57 IIRC there is a Monad instance in the standard library which is not a functor (in the mathematical sense); this is an egregrious abuse, but there you go. 17:30:19 In what sense isn't it mathematical? 17:30:29 s/mathematical/functorial/ 17:30:44 Because it does not obey the functor laws. 17:31:30 ie. 17:31:31 fmap id = id 17:31:34 fmap (f.g) = fmap f . fmap g 17:31:45 *i.e. 17:32:47 Oh jeez, Emacs depends on gconf. 17:32:55 Seriously? 17:32:57 Yep. 17:33:01 The GTK+ version, at least. 17:33:09 Well, that makes some sense. 17:33:18 The kind of sense that makes me want to slap people. 17:33:34 Why? 17:33:45 Because dammit I don't want gconf. 17:34:17 Why not? 17:34:35 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..). 17:35:05 Because I don't want GNOME components on my system; and because gconf not only requires a daemon to run at all times, but is very hard to change keys in -- you can't just edit the files, really. 17:36:22 ... of course, since I don't have gconfd running, Evince won't actuall yremember my settings but will still have the daemon installed. 17:39:07 *actually remember 17:41:14 I need a single word that means "of note". :| 17:42:04 Notable 17:42:23 Yeah, another one. 17:42:38 Ununnotable 17:42:48 No. 17:43:51 alise: There's a Monad instance that's not a functor? Said Monad instance is clearly not a monad. 17:43:55 And hence this is a bug. 17:44:08 pikhq: Of course; but a well-established one, just like Monad not being declared as Functor => Monad. 17:44:16 alise: Which instance? 17:44:20 People loathe to change the standard library, quite understandably. 17:44:26 pikhq: I'm not sure. 17:44:28 I loathe the standard library. 17:44:57 pikhq: Have you read the Epitome? 17:45:15 alise: No. 17:45:24 http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf 17:45:46 The finest Epigram implementation there is! The only Epigram implemention there is! 17:46:01 Written in beautiful Strathclyde Haskell Extension, typeset by beautiful LaTeX! 17:46:09 To be compiled with the beautiful glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation system! 17:46:37 Sadly, said LaTeX is not microtype'd. 17:46:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:46:44 pikhq: You can /tell/? 17:46:47 Hi ais523. 17:46:51 alise: Yes. 17:46:55 pikhq: How??? 17:47:04 The T vs the i on the first page? 17:47:05 alise: Lack of margin kerning. 17:47:07 hi 17:47:10 Well, page 7. 17:47:11 pikhq: Is that it? 17:47:19 what's this debate about? 17:47:32 ais523: pikhq has been given a PDF typeset with LaTeX 17:47:35 Most of the other microtypography stuff is not noticable outside of comparisons. 17:47:42 ais523: he has been able to /recognise/ that it has not been \usepackage{microtype}d 17:47:50 impressive 17:47:50 ais523: because of a lack of a specific microtypographical correction 17:47:58 I am busy being astonished that he has managed to do this. 17:48:10 pikhq: Which two lines gave it away? 17:48:13 (the character shrinking and stretching is only noticable in that it generates less ugly hyphenation 17:48:25 And what sect of Buddhism do I have to study to reach this kind of enlightenment? 17:48:38 alise: Look at any line with ending terminal punctuation. This is what makes it *most* obvious. 17:48:43 Erm. Ending punctuation. 17:48:44 The character shrinking and stretching sucks a bit though, because you have to disable ligatures for it to work properly, which disables quotes etc. 17:48:53 even if you do it specifically avoiding disabling quotes 17:49:01 ligatures get disabled even at small spacings 17:49:05 where they would be beneficial 17:49:24 pikhq: But there aren't any to start with. 17:49:30 Anyway, whatever, it's just an Epigram implementation :P 17:49:32 The letter spacing changes are also only noticable in that they generate less ugly hyphenation... 17:49:41 You said that. 17:49:47 Oh, letter spacing. 17:49:48 Okay. 17:49:55 To prove that statement, we first show that any Tm {In, VV} p which is not a N t is not a 17:49:56 neutral term. This is obvious as we are left with lambda and canonicals, which cannot be stuck. 17:49:58 Yeah, I see it there. 17:49:59 Page 9. 17:50:05 Tons of it. 17:50:11 Ah, you mean commas? 17:50:15 Okay; I see it there. 17:50:24 Yes, commas also get kerned on the edge. 17:50:49 Also, though this requires more attention to detail, you would be able to see other characters getting kerned. 17:50:56 Oh, by the way. This has bugged me about the Epitome for ages. 17:51:07 What does the Bwd constructor do? 17:51:13 !haskell :i Bwd 17:51:14 Oh, none of us have actually /read/ the thing. 17:51:15 For instance, that "k" on the second line of the second paragraph of page 9 would be partially in the margin. 17:51:27 Phantom_Hoover: See page 251. 17:51:36 As would the "T" on the very start of the first paragraph on page 9. 17:51:42 _o_ 17:51:42 | 17:51:42 /'\ 17:51:46 data Bwd x = B0 | Bwd x :< x 17:51:46 i.e. 17:51:51 data Bwd x = B0 | (<:) (Bwd x) x 17:51:55 i.e., a reverse list. 17:51:58 There's also 17:52:04 data Fwd x = F0 | (:>) x (Fwd x) 17:52:08 which is obviously the regular list structure. 17:52:44 "This always succeed." --Conor 17:56:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 17:57:57 How does one enable XeTeX's microtypographical support? 17:58:32 What is Epigram actually used to research? 17:58:53 Phantom_Hoover: Dependent types. 17:59:05 alise: Doesn't exist yet. 17:59:06 It's not actually actively being using to /research/ i.e. write papers and shit. 17:59:06 alise: Oh damn, you found the Epitome too? I was trying to read it. It's hilarious. 17:59:11 It's more an experimental vehicle. 17:59:18 cpressey: Hilarious because of Conor's humour, or what? :P 17:59:24 I can't tell what's a technical term from type theory and what's kidding. 17:59:30 Epitome? 17:59:38 cpressey: Either you said that before or someone else thought the same. 17:59:47 Sgeo: http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf 17:59:49 I had said it before :) 18:01:02 "References are the key way we represent free variables, declared, defined, and deluded." 18:01:16 Deluded is *probably* kidding. But who knows? 18:01:42 pikhq: So, wait, XeTeX does no microtypographical adjustments? 18:01:47 pikhq: But that's /half the point/ of XeTeX! 18:02:50 alise: Actually, the point of XeTeX is to support OpenType features. 18:02:56 So, uh, anyone know of a panelly thing for X11 that doesn't suck? A clock, systray icons, and a windows list, that's all I'm lookin' for. 18:03:18 It doesn't yet support the microtype portions of OpenType. 18:03:44 02:25:19 i left it way too late to chip in but i have a friend who thinks he may have an O(n^4) algorithm for turning NP into P 18:03:46 He's full of shit. 18:03:47 (likewise, it doesn't yet support the vertical text layout portions of OpenType) 18:03:55 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:03:56 pikhq: Well that's fucking useless. 18:04:12 Can you get Linux Libertine in ... a format that pdfTeX supports? 18:04:59 alise: The fact that "I don't want GNOME components on my system" isn't regarded as a valid desire is one of the defining problems of our generation (whatever that means)... it goes along with "This is just an accretion of hacks and features that were slapped on one-by-one" not being a valid criticism of a code base. 18:04:59 http://www.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/help/Catalogue/entries/libertine.html 18:05:29 Oh, it's part of TeX Live. 18:05:32 \usepackage{libertine} 18:05:39 pikhq: <3 18:05:49 pikhq: Does it support all the nice ligatures and stuff? I hope so. 18:06:04 Should. 18:06:23 pikhq: Sir, that doesn't automatically set the text font. Whaddo I do 18:06:47 Uh? 18:07:35 pikhq: \usepackage{libertine} still uses Computer Modern fonts by default. 18:07:40 It seems I have to do more to set it as the default font. 18:07:42 Oh, hey. "XeTeX now supports margin kerning along the same lines as pdfTeX" 18:07:53 Okay, but this is fine too. I'm more comfortable with pdfTeX. :P 18:08:20 What's that command you use in the quotation environment, name \*flushright for some *, to set the author? 18:08:22 Like, you do 18:08:33 \somethingflushright Awesome Person 18:09:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined. 18:09:10 I dunno. 18:11:59 http://sourceforge.net/projects/webadmin/forums/forum/600155/topic/3801603 18:12:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:12:32 04:43:10 oerjan: Not cool, not funny, not a good comic? 18:12:37 fizzie's secret identity is revealed 18:12:59 coppro: gahahaha 18:13:13 well, okay, it's not that funny 18:16:31 http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2010/august/134484/Al-Jazeera-on-college-TV-station-causes-concern 18:16:49 http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP/argall.txt 18:16:50 "instance Naperian Bwd where -- cheeky!" 18:17:08 "a controversial network" 18:17:13 Al Jazeera is a controversial network? 18:17:24 Waaaaah ... I want to cry ... 18:17:32 alise, some of the comments are worse 18:18:00 alise, I assume you mean that fizzie is Randall Munroe? 18:18:05 No. 18:18:11 That fizzie is sjeforgotthenumbers. 18:18:27 "This is a government funded college and thus should only promote the United States of America. Not a fascist idiology of anti-American hate from those who are sworn to kill all of us as they are of wiping Israel off the map. The sooner you liberal knuckle-heads understand that salient point the clearer your thought processes might become." 18:18:30 I think -- hope -- this is a joke. 18:18:32 Or maybe, just possibly, I've just been reading the forums approximately thrice? 18:18:43 Inconceivable. 18:18:50 How dare you lie> 18:18:51 *lie? 18:19:08 pikhq: I forgot to \usepackage[T1]{fontenc}. *headdesk* 18:19:15 I lie where I lay. 18:19:28 alise, if that's a comment, it's not a joke. 18:19:32 fizzie: Insert Shakespearean pun. 18:19:35 The world is full of idiots. 18:19:37 Phantom_Hoover_: You know, some people /do/ use humour. 18:19:51 I hope that "P=NP is undecidable" proof is a joke, too, but it's not. 18:20:02 cpressey, proof? 18:20:13 Phantom_Hoover_: alise's link 18:20:23 I.. don't quite get it 18:22:47 pikhq: How does one set the default mathematics font in LaTeX? 18:23:46 Wow; evince segfaults on this PDF. 18:27:48 Oh, nice, Epigram is MITL'd. 18:28:09 Er, Epitome, or whatever their implementation is called, I mean. 18:28:32 MITL? 18:28:35 Hate it when language and implementation are conflated like that. 18:28:48 Do try to keep up, Phantom_Hoover_. 18:29:31 I have no idea what MITL means! 18:29:43 cpressey: Their implementation has no name; you just check out it, and all the associated components, from the "Epigram" repository. The way you interact with the implementation is called the Cochon interactive theorem prover. 18:30:02 That has the "data T := (c:T); ..." stuff and the "make x : T" stuff, etc. 18:30:21 But the expressions and the implementations of these syntaxes et al. is part of the implementation. 18:30:29 alise: They do say "the source code of Epigram is available..." Which always bugs me. 18:30:33 The Epitome is the name of the properly-typeset implementation. 18:30:44 cpressey: Yes, but that's {"An Epigram Implementation", Cochon, ...} 18:31:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover. 18:31:28 # 18:31:28 I know what they "probably mean" but I still regard it as a bad habit. 18:32:16 Too many people can't make the distinction -- no need to encourage it through more "abuse of notation" like that. Anyway, just my pet peeve. 18:33:10 * Sgeo gibbers at Reddit being down 18:34:38 Sgeo, it... isn't. 18:35:17 Not anymore 18:36:06 Sgeo, there is more to life than Reddit. 18:36:35 www.reddit.com works, reddit.com doesn't 18:39:35 What's the LaTeX command to set not initial line indentation of a paragraph, but indentation of all following lines? 18:41:06 <3 Spivak 18:41:22 "The best way is to draw pictures; but this requires a chapter all by itself." 18:42:23 What's that from? 18:43:03 his Calculus textbook 18:43:09 (he's talking about functions) 18:45:40 tokenEq t = (|id ~ () (% tokenFilter (== t) %)|) 18:45:57 I've never seen that syntax in Haskell before... is this SHE stuff? 18:46:43 -!- relet1 has joined. 18:48:40 -!- relet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:52:15 pikhq: \usepackage[libertine} doesn’t do the “Qu” ligature. 18:52:38 -!- alise has left (?). 18:52:39 -!- alise has joined. 18:52:42 Which sucks. 18:54:13 cpressey: So do you really use FreeBSD as a day-to-day OS? 18:54:43 alise: I used to. Meaning, no. But I have, in the past. 18:55:10 alise: :( 18:55:25 There's a "Qu" ligature? 18:55:55 Upside: the kernel is actually well written. Downside: all BSD package managers suck. Java support was almost nonexistent. The userland is still largely GNU anyway. Etc, etc. 18:56:52 cpressey: What do you use now? 18:56:56 Phantom_Hoover: In Libertine, yes. 18:57:06 Phantom_Hoover: The Q’s tail flows underneath the u. 18:57:09 How do I see it? 18:57:17 Do you have the Linux Libertine font installed? 18:57:21 Yes. 18:57:27 Switch to it on IRC. XChat, yes? 18:57:33 alise: Ubuntu. Sadly. Can I call it Ubuntoad? That, and Cygwin-under-Windows-7. 18:58:00 Phantom_Hoover: Switched to it? 18:58:11 Indeed. 18:58:15 Query. 18:58:17 “Quite how we are to perform this feat, I am not certain,” admitted the dean. 18:58:19 Coool. 18:58:23 Q Q Q Qu 18:58:25 Q u 18:58:36 This font is indeed cool. 18:58:55 Q​u <-- with zero width space inbetween 18:58:58 Q​u Qu 18:59:03 The former is how it apperas in LaTeX. 18:59:06 Phantom_Hoover: It is a pretty nice typeface. 18:59:34 A bit too... subtle for freetype to render properly, but all other fonts suck more, so I’m using it on IRC. 18:59:34 As a typography illiterate, I can confirm thi. 18:59:49 I especially like the capital “M”. The little slant! It’s so cute. 18:59:57 Phantom_Hoover: Also: “Th” is a ligature. 19:00:03 :) 19:00:10 Type “T”, then “h”. Note the transformation. 19:00:21 T​h Th <-- Zero-width spaces to the rescue. 19:00:25 I'll have days of fun with this! 19:00:37 f​i fi <-- The fi ligature. 19:00:46 f​l fl <-- The fl ligature. 19:00:54 f​f ff <-- The ff ligature. 19:00:59 (Those are a bit more subtle.) 19:01:04 (Though the unligatured fi is hideous.) 19:01:19 Phantom_Hoover: Also nice is Biolinium, Libertine’s sans-serif sister. 19:01:26 I know this. 19:01:33 Okay. 19:01:43  <-- Thank Libertine for this. 19:01:48  19:01:54  19:02:10  is pretty bizarre; does it show up as wavy lines for anyone else? 19:02:44 Yep. 19:02:54 Wait, that's not much help. 19:03:19 It stays as wavy lines in my terminal. 19:04:00 alise: it's a black circle for me 19:04:25 ○ ○ 19:04:25  19:04:25  19:04:32 ○ ○ 19:04:32  19:04:33  19:04:36 ○ ○ 19:04:37  19:04:38  19:04:53 ○ ○ 19:04:53  19:04:53  19:04:57 ○ ○ 19:04:57  19:04:58  19:05:01 ○ ○ 19:05:02  19:05:03  19:05:06 Yayy 19:05:10 ○ ○ 19:05:11  19:05:12  19:05:14 It is perfect! 19:05:16 The face is complete. 19:07:28 alise, no it isn't. 19:07:34 Yes it is. Why isn't it? 19:07:36 The nose is off-centre. 19:07:45 Looks centred to me. 19:08:00 “I wish I had some sort of XChat plugin that properifies my quote marks.” 19:08:06 And makes -- into a real em-dash. 19:08:12 That's because you're a FASCIST. 19:08:17 alise, compose key? 19:08:21 Phantom_Hoover: Is not automatic. 19:08:22 It's there for a reason. 19:08:31 Oh wait, I can just make substitutions for ``, '' and --. 19:08:32 Awesome! 19:09:41 ``Testing.'' 19:09:42 Whaat. 19:09:43 No output. 19:09:46 Oh, it needs to be a word. 19:09:48 Supremely lame. 19:11:41 Wow, you’re meant to use an en-dash rather than a hyphen when it’s an adjective attached to multiple words, e.g. “Civil War–era”. 19:11:45 At least according to this random website. 19:12:49 Wikipedia doesn't seem to back this up. 19:13:27 alise: It's something that varies from style guide to style guide. 19:14:14 Hah, Unicode can't mark up superscript-th, for all its useless superscripts and subscripts. 19:15:22 pikhq: Clearly, the preferred usage should be {Civil War}-era. 19:15:27 -!- AnMaster has joined. 19:15:55 alise: Clearly. :P 19:21:56 I want a programming language! Stat! 19:22:02 C 19:22:10 Meanwhilst: 19:22:11 http://conservapedia.com/Counterexamples_to_Relativity 19:22:16 coppro: No! Another one! Stat! 19:22:27 The theory of relativity is a mathematical system that allows no exceptions. It is heavily promoted by liberals who like its encouragement of relativism and its tendency to mislead people in how they view the world.[1] Here is a list of 24 counterexamples: any one of them shows that the theory is incorrect. 19:22:58 [[The action-at-a-distance of quantum entanglement.[5] 19:22:59 The action-at-a-distance by Jesus, described in John 4:46-54.]] 19:23:16 Juxtaposing quantum entanglement with Jesus for the same purpose: Hilarity defined. 19:23:21 alise: D 19:23:34 coppro: You're just going through the alphabet! 19:24:15 B is a programming language too! 19:24:22 So is E! 19:24:24 And A+! 19:24:30 And M! If you use that name instead of MUMPS. 19:29:51 alise, that article is one of the funnier ones. 19:30:18 they have "Black holes" in the list of liberal pseudoscience 19:33:18 theory: fax uses conservapedia 19:33:24 that would explain the insanity & the wikipedia hatred 19:34:23 Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it. But I'm not entirely convinced. When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light. And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--Andy Schlafly 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST) 19:35:01 Phantom_Hoover: You know that WM I described to you? 19:36:30 "On this site we encourage *thinking* in a logical way.--Andy Schlafly" 19:38:22 -!- cal153 has joined. 19:42:06 whoa 19:42:20 I never knew the government could be this helpful 19:47:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:49:26 coppro: ? 19:50:26 -!- tombom_ has joined. 19:54:43 fizzie, there? 19:55:36 08:15:21 Get a load of this -- I just read that some rich Arab payed .9 million for a number plate that is just "1" 19:55:43 08:20:38 Meh. Someone in Asia payed an inordinate sum for 5. 19:55:58 i think those were the same country, it was in a newspaper here 19:56:26 Qatar or Kuwait or something like that 19:58:05 hm abu dhabi 19:58:17 Qatar is a bad name for a country because it does not utilise the Qu ligature. 19:58:24 (part of UAE) 19:58:29 fizzie, apart from the previously mentioned panos recently I took some obviously non-pano photos with my phone from a moving car on the way home (I don't have the google setup sadly!). http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/trip_home/ if you are interested. If you can recommend some software to generate a minimalistic static gallery page I would be happy. Nothing that wouldn't wor 19:58:29 k in links2 -g that is. 19:59:25 I've used a Java thing for a static album dealie, but I'm not sure I'd go and recommend it. 20:00:09 hm 20:00:39 incidentally the top google hit when i tried to find it was a blog saying it was saudi arabia, but i am 100% sure that is wrong (and a later google hit said abu dhabi) 20:00:41 for x in *; do echo "

" >>index.html; done 20:00:49 It also seems to have become confusing, with some sort of free hosting plan and iPhone apps and whatnot. 20:01:07 The do-it-yourself solution is always a possibility, too. 20:01:56 fizzie, that involves a lot of work I'm not willing to spend 20:02:02 Or the "thumbnails with bash-oneliner of convert, ls | sed to create the album page" approach in my case. 20:02:20 fizzie, so for now wget -r -np http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/trip_home/ and eog on the resulting directory 20:02:54 Or just clickety-click in the browser. 20:03:03 fizzie, that involves more clicking ;P 20:03:25 two clicks for next image 20:03:43 http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/trip_home/Bild032.jpg might need some explanation... 20:03:44 It's O(n), anyway. (Or, well, I guess eog can do some sort of automatic-advance slideshow, maybe.) 20:04:03 I don't know the English word for hemvärnet 20:04:07 Isn't mewtwo some sort of pokeymon? 20:04:09 but that building used to be that 20:04:19 fizzie, yes, I didn't decide naming scheme of servers 20:04:32 Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). 20:04:41 cpressey, XD 20:04:57 `addquote Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). 20:05:01 *MWAHAHAHA* 20:05:04 209| Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). 20:05:04 AnMaster: for x in *; do echo "

" >>index.html; done 20:05:09 Oh no! 20:05:14 fizzie, as the domain name implies it is an irc network (you wouldn't like it I think). I'm an oper there. Not the one deciding on naming scheme though. 20:05:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:05:24 Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). 20:05:24 wat 20:05:29 alise, hm, needs some

and such 20:05:31 but good idea 20:05:32 AnMaster: nope 20:05:35 AnMaster:

is perfectly valid 20:05:38 (without unterminated

) 20:05:40 alise, I don't do HTML5, sorry 20:05:45 AnMaster: in HTML4.1 Strict 20:05:51 alise, I don't do that either 20:05:54 He only speaks XML, you see. 20:05:55 I prefer xhtml 20:06:01 fizzie: yeah, but that's just because he's fucking stupid. 20:06:09 fizzie, actually S-Expressions too, but no browser does that 20:06:19 They may be crazy, but I'm with them on the "black holes are probably a complete fiction" platform. 20:06:42 cpressey: x_x 20:06:44 How so&interrobang; 20:06:45 cpressey, that doesn't explain the evidence for them in the form of gravitational lenses and so on 20:06:51 cpressey: That is... vanishingly unlikely. 20:07:18 Wow... I think I just disproved the Riemann hypothesis. 20:07:20 http://pastie.org/1082326.txt?key=kt6ybknat9le7iodnlxzxw 20:07:22 You heard it here first. 20:07:33 P!=NP, !Riemann... a lot of interesting theorems being proved recently! 20:08:01 alise, I want to see this published in a peer-reviewed paper first :P 20:08:13 Published in a paper? 20:08:25 AnMaster: "Gravitational lensing" is a complete *guess* as to "why the sky appears like that there". 20:08:27 alise, well, if you actually *proved* it... 20:08:37 AnMaster: You fail at terminology. 20:08:43 alise: black holes not actually existing as singularities isn't that unlikely 20:08:44 alise, well, disproved it 20:08:46 Besides, I didn't; I disproved it. 20:08:51 alise, still 20:08:54 AnMaster: You don't publish things in papers. 20:08:57 alise, I used proved in the old sense 20:08:57 You publish papers in journals. 20:09:06 alise, err right 20:09:08 typo 20:09:10 A peer-reviewed newspaper! 20:09:21 cpressey: A peer-reviewed toilet paper. 20:09:36 Real Men of Science only use that stuff. 20:09:39 oerjan: ok, but black holes altogether? 20:09:43 you would be able to publish in any journal of your choice if your disproof passes peer review 20:09:50 AnMaster: yes, but I was announcing it here first. 20:09:56 so that people can take a look at it and maybe point out flaws 20:10:04 I'm submitting it to Annals of Mathematics tomorrow if all goes well. 20:10:10 I'm sure oerjan can back me up. 20:10:10 alise, well, my math is not nearly up to scratch in that area 20:10:13 oerjan: http://pastie.org/1082326.txt?key=kt6ybknat9le7iodnlxzxw 20:10:32 alise, and yes oerjan could probably help 20:10:32 alise: it might also be that horizon never actually forms (it's apparently consistent to assume that happens infinitely far in the future from our viewpoint, after all) 20:10:42 *the horizon 20:11:08 Incidentally, speaking of photography, I took a minute of handsfree video from the Assembly main hall, in the interests of trying out the panotools-driven time-lapse stabilization trick to make it un-shakey. It's unfortunately a pretty boring sight; just a bunch of flashing lights. 20:11:22 oerjan: any comments on my disproof? 20:11:45 alise, hm is this a constructive proof? As in you can show a specific value it is wrong for, or provide a way to construct such a value? 20:12:00 AnMaster: Erm, the Riemann hypothesis states that such a value exists. 20:12:09 Oh, no, wait. 20:12:11 I see what you mean. 20:12:13 My disproof specifies that. 20:12:22 AnMaster: it is not a constructive proof, but then a great many mathematical proofs aren't 20:12:30 indeed 20:12:39 constructing a value is probably possible but I have no idea what kind of techniques you'd use 20:12:44 Mine is a simple proof by contradiction. 20:12:44 alise, doesn't it state that *all* _non-trivial_ 0 lies on a specific line 20:12:51 Yes; I handle this. 20:13:02 A trivial 0 = negative even number. 20:13:07 indeed 20:13:28 or something like that 20:13:35 I don't remember the specific details 20:13:47 alise, anyway what about that P!=NP proof? 20:14:18 what do you mean, what about it? 20:14:31 alise: Is it correct, of course. 20:14:36 alise: I assume you've already grokked all about it! 20:14:50 as in, who made it and who checked it 20:14:54 It's only 100 pages of pure math. 20:14:58 it was authored by a competent computer scientist working at a high position in a large coroporation, it was sent to a bunch of high-profile computer scientists to review; it got published not by the author, but by someone else (so he didn't just post a non-peer-reviewed paper) 20:15:11 But it hasn't been conclusively checked yet. 20:15:14 I think it's possibly true -- he's not a crank -- but probably flawed but useful. 20:15:21 I have to say however I will be less surprised if it is proven that P!=NP than if P=NP is proven. 20:15:23 AnMaster: it was only published by "accident". 20:15:34 P=NP doesn't mean much, the constant factor could be G_64. 20:15:39 well yes 20:15:51 alise, but it *could* also be quite small 20:16:02 Could, yes, but that's the kind of assumption I'm not willing to make. 20:16:04 alise, and did it stand up to other people checking it. 20:16:20 alise, well indeed. I'm not assuming it is small. 20:16:44 AnMaster: it's only 3 days since it first appeared. experts are discussing it as we speak. 20:16:50 I'm not assuming it is large either 20:17:02 oerjan, who? 20:17:03 the godel's letter blog had a post on it today 20:17:06 ah 20:17:14 "However, the suitable track record of Vinay Deolalikar and his proof, which stated that P was smaller than NP for infinite time Turing Machines, lessen the chances of errors." 20:17:15 okay so it passed outside this channel 20:17:17 good thing 20:17:47 AnMaster: um that P != NP proof has nothing to do with #esoteric 20:17:47 Infinite time? Hello! 20:17:53 cpressey, to me that looks slightly incoherent 20:18:06 oerjan: No no! Vinay is a long-time esolang enthusiast! 20:18:08 "“But enough question-dodging!” you exclaim. “Is the proof right or isn’t it? C’mon, it’s been like three hours since you first saw it—what’s taking you so long?” Well, somehow, I haven’t yet found the opportunity to study this 103-page manuscript in detail." 20:18:14 cpressey: there are lots of variations of P vs. NP question 20:18:20 oerjan, oh thought it did 20:18:20 cpressey: um you serious? :D 20:18:23 *shrug* 20:18:35 oerjan: ... 20:18:50 There's already this: http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=456 -- "If Vinay Deolalikar is awarded the $1,000,000 Clay Millennium Prize for his proof of P≠NP, then I, Scott Aaronson, will personally supplement his prize by the amount of $200,000. I’m dead serious—and I can afford it about as well as you’d think I can." 20:19:08 * alise ponders whether to install a Flash version with a known security vulnerability. 20:19:09 oerjan, I thought someone in here claimed something about working on a secret P?=NP proof 20:19:13 was it agur? 20:19:17 cpressey: he _could_ be from here, not everyone here has revealed their real name 20:19:20 Hmm ... hmm ... yes. 20:19:20 err spelling 20:19:27 AnMaster: oh that's cpressey :D 20:19:42 oerjan: It's *my claim* that he invented the following languages: Spray, SixBucks, and KomputerNO. 20:19:43 oerjan, oh right, I initially thought we talked about that proof 20:19:57 but i sincerely doubt his real name is something indian 20:19:57 oerjan, I have been on holiday, I haven't been able to keep up with news 20:20:06 cpressey: you forgot Findimate 20:20:07 oerjan, only been on from slow hotel wlan a few hours every day 20:20:23 cpressey: And "Six Reversed Quail Sausages". 20:20:46 oerjan: "there are lots of variations of P vs. NP question" -- but I've *read* the def'n from the Millenium Prize committee, and I don't remember anything about "infinite time". 20:20:48 * alise ponders whether to install a Flash version with a known security vulnerability. <-- why not go for a secure one... oh wait that is unlikely to exist 20:21:28 cpressey: http://logcom.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/5/577 20:21:48 two co-authors 20:21:58 AnMaster: they retracted the native 64-bit version 20:22:01 AnMaster: for linux 20:22:08 AnMaster: so the only available one is an older one with some known vulns 20:22:10 ah 20:22:15 alise, nspluginwrapper? 20:22:18 and i'm hideously irresponsible :) 20:22:19 or whatever it was called 20:22:27 AnMaster: has some mouse click issues and i think AV sync is a bit wonky 20:22:35 (sometimes/often mouse clicks won't register) 20:22:47 alise, youtube? I find youtube-dl and mplayer or vlc gives better result anyway 20:22:54 just the the last version 20:23:06 since the one in ubuntu and arch is too old to work with youtube atm 20:23:06 cpressey: by "variation" i mean other questions that are slightly different (often by adding an oracle) 20:23:12 Well ... the OS X users have a lovely browser plugin that replaces YouTube videos with an embedded native video player. 20:23:18 it's a single file to download 20:23:20 But I don't think there's anything similar for other browsers. 20:23:20 and chmod +x 20:23:57 alise: Shame, too. 20:24:06 The Flash player for Youtube sucks ass. 20:24:08 oerjan: OK, the article is sloppily referring to his *previous* (circa 2003) proof about infinite-time TMs. He has maybe extended the results to finite-time. 20:24:15 alise: There's some sort of "youtube enabler" for Firefox Mobile on N900 -- which I don't think did Flash properly, unlike the default browser -- that might do the same trick; haven't tried it. 20:24:16 Maybe I'll WRITE ONE! Okay, does anyone know if Greasemonkey is available for Midori? 20:24:29 It has user script support. Hoorj! 20:24:31 (in fact one of the main known obstacles to proving P ? NP is that the proof must not work if you add an oracle, because it's known that some oracles have P^O = NP^O and some have P^O != NP^O 20:24:32 "Youtube without Flash Auto" 20:24:35 ) 20:24:37 Wow, what a coinkydink. 20:24:51 / @description Adds links below the Youtube video to (a) download the video (HD .mp4 file, no converters are used, no external sites) (b) view the video with an embedded external player (like mplayerplug-in or the totem plugin) 20:24:55 mplayer yay I like mplayer. 20:25:21 community/gecko-mediaplayer 0.9.9.2-1 20:25:22 Browser plugin that uses gnome-mplayer to play media in a web browser 20:25:22 Yes please 20:25:28 oerjan: I never understood why you cannot simply say "I have a proof that P != NP when there is no oracle" 20:25:35 I think mplayer's plugin thing had some real issues way back then. But I'm sure it's been improved in the last five or so years. 20:26:23 cpressey, "because no one thought of doing that"? 20:26:40 You can also say "I have a 'natural' proof that P != NP -- therefore certain one-way functions do [not?] exist" (or however that goes) 20:26:59 cpressey: of course you can, the problem is that _most_ methods in complexity theory allow you to add an arbitrary oracle to a proof 20:27:29 cpressey: heh 20:27:30 oerjan: I have no doubt we're using crap methods, is the thing :/ 20:28:07 cpressey: natural proofs of P!=NP don't work, no? 20:28:19 cpressey: well hopefully this guy found a non-crap method :) 20:28:23 "Notably, assuming one-way functions exist, these proofs cannot separate the complexity classes P and NP." 20:28:24 ha 20:28:24 *ah 20:28:34 oerjan, did you look at alise's disprof of Riemann 20:28:38 disprof! 20:28:43 *disproof 20:28:47 "...it seems to introduce some thought-provoking new ideas, particularly a connection between statistical physics and the first-order logic characterization of NP." from Scott Aaronson's blog. 20:28:53 If he's using physics -- oi. 20:28:58 He is. 20:28:59 AnMaster: i looked at the page, then my brain promptly ran away screaming 20:29:00 Statistical physics. 20:29:04 alise: Then -- oi. 20:29:09 Oui. 20:29:39 wtf is "statistical physics"? 20:30:05 I sure hope it's mathematically defined. 20:30:26 "We measured the running time of several Turing machines and concluded that..." 20:30:50 alise, btw that disproof you made was done by some proof checker right? 20:30:58 it has a certain structure to it 20:31:01 AnMaster: nope 20:31:05 hm 20:31:13 AnMaster: i used a CAS to simplify the expressions though 20:31:22 If the proof checker in question is Alise, maybe 20:31:27 alise, anyway yeah I can't help you check it due to my brain also running away screaming 20:31:36 * alise runs away screaming for effect 20:31:40 XD 20:31:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_physics 20:32:05 alise: Maybe you should take it to ##math or whatever it is. (Haha.) 20:32:38 The thing is, you see, and I hesistate to point this out but, you see, um well, Turing machines aren't physical, er, objects, you know? 20:32:52 cpressey: Presumably it's using some other facet of statistical physics ... 20:32:53 alise, but if the proof was that short I strongly suspect someone else would have found it by now. Of course it could be correct, but you shouldn't be disappointed if it isn't 20:32:57 *Mathematical results from statistical physics* I have no problem with. 20:33:04 AnMaster: I won't be, I'm just interested. 20:33:09 But those are properly *in Statistics*, not physics. 20:33:19 AnMaster: anyway there is /some/ evidence to suggest that a simple proof of Fermat's Last Theorem is possible 20:33:25 i.e. proof sketches with just a few "hard" holes 20:33:27 *e.g. 20:33:38 cpressey: apparently random SAT instances are involved in the proof, i recall 20:33:54 oerjan: That sounds extremely likely. 20:34:13 alise, sure. No one has found that yet though. Maybe those holes takes a lot of stuff to fill? 20:34:19 AnMaster: Perhaps. 20:34:56 Actually, Shannon had some proof a long time ago that "a randomly constructed formula has a big circuit", but for some reason that doesn't prove P != NP, although it totally should. 20:35:33 And I should totally be writing unit tests for my huge-ass infrastructure refactor right now. 20:37:40 Er 20:37:51 IIRC there is a Monad instance in the standard library which is not a functor (in the mathematical sense); this is an egregrious abuse, but there you go. 20:37:56 How well do I think Scott Aaronson can afford to give away 200 grand? 20:38:08 the functor law follows from the monad laws, surely 20:38:13 *laws 20:38:17 *-s 20:38:47 Pshaw. Laws. 20:39:15 well, i mean it must also break a monad law, then 20:39:28 oerjan: hmm 20:39:31 oerjan: I really don't recall 20:40:33 liftM f x = x >>= return . f 20:40:54 x >>= return . id = x >>= return = x, monad law 20:41:37 mm 20:42:19 x >>= return . (f . g) = x >>= \t -> return (f (g t)) there has to be some way to use the third monad law there 20:42:20 " If P≠NP is proved, then to whatever extent theoretical computer science continues to exist at all, it will have a very different character." 20:42:38 So... the proof DESTROYS THEORETICAL COMPUTER SCIENCE? Bitchen! 20:42:41 hm 20:42:52 Whaaa 20:43:07 How on earth will it change anything, it's the status quo 20:43:31 I think that's a friggin' narrow view of "theoretical computer science". 20:43:37 alise: He thinks the proof will need so unbelievably earth-shaking paradigm-shifting insights, TCS will be all about it for the rest of time. 20:43:41 alise: Goodness, midori is a nice browser. 20:43:46 fizzie: x_x 20:43:48 fizzie: Who said that? 20:43:57 pikhq: BTW, enable the Customise Toolbar extension to get rid of that irritating Sidepanel button. 20:43:58 alise: Himself, paraphrased a bit by myself. 20:44:00 It has... A few handy features, and nothing stupid getting in the way. 20:44:03 And yes, I did that. 20:44:15 (x >>= (return . g)) >>= (return . f) = x >>= \t -> (return (g t)) >>= return . f 20:44:21 alise: This is Scott Aaronson, if that wasn't clear. 20:44:30 cpressey: ah 20:45:03 = x >>= \t -> (return . f) (g t) = x >>= return . f . g, Q.E.D. 20:45:07 Strange. He's usually so smart. 20:45:54 alise: It was the immediately preceding bit from cpressey's quotation: "P≠NP is exactly the ‘expected’ answer! But proving that expected answer has been the central goal of the field for 40 years—not so much (in my opinion) because the answer itself is in serious doubt, as because of how much will need to be learned about computation on the way to the proof." 20:45:59 God I hate comments. 20:46:21 Comments are the peanut gallery of the internet. 20:46:41 Or just plain nuts. 20:47:01 Ha, 20:47:02 *Ha. 20:50:45 Why won't mplayer wooork 20:55:02 Now if only there were ways to disable some other features. 20:55:07 For instance, the URL completion. 20:55:07 pikhq: Like? 20:55:09 I no want. 20:55:11 pikhq: I like it :( 20:55:41 Does anyone know how to configure hardware audio volume from Linux? 20:55:44 As in literal speaker volume, 20:55:46 Still, least irritating browser... 20:55:46 *volume. 20:55:59 pikhq: I thought you liked Conkeror? 20:56:02 Or at least, least irritating 'normal' one. 20:56:20 alise: I do, but its UI sometimes clashes with sites. 20:59:47 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:00:48 alise: Since you used a theorem prover to help reformat your proof -- why not use it to check it? 21:03:55 I quite like how WebKit doesn't suck, in contrast to Gecko. 21:06:56 GAAAH 21:07:09 cpressey: I didn't use a theorem prover. 21:07:21 Okay, Midori blithely ignores fontconfig. I have no idea how to get it to use an un-suck font for Japanese. 21:07:22 Also, no existing theorem prover has a complete enough formalisation of the reals to have the zeta function. 21:08:30 http://www.youtube.com/bipbopbipbop 21:08:39 best channel ever 21:09:01 -!- fruitbag has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:09:20 Two Minute Sync Test Not Actually Rotated 21:09:21 "Or maybe it's rotated 360 degrees! How will you know? (Hint: use complex analysis.)" 21:10:05 Awesome, AV sync works. 21:10:25 alise: But surely you could pack about half of it into a lemma that only needs a rudimentary understanding of the reals, and auto-prove that, leaving the remainder easier to check. 21:10:37 Hooray for OSSv4! 21:10:47 Or, maybe not. 21:10:49 cpressey: you have to manually prove 21:10:52 it just checks the proof 21:10:55 (in an awkward format) 21:11:02 cpressey: Turns out theorem provers are a bit of a bitch. Anyway, my disproof is not very long. 21:11:04 Yes, I know - you've already *done* that though 21:11:05 It shouldn't be hard to verify. 21:11:10 No I haven't. 21:11:18 I only used a computer to simplify some simple expressions. 21:11:19 What have you written, if not a proof? 21:11:26 I've written a proof. 21:11:33 But not in the format it'd accept, which accepts no handwaving at all. 21:11:58 Yes, I'm only suggesting you rewrite (as much of it as you can) in that format. 21:12:29 Or I could just persuade oerjan to take a look at it. :) 21:13:08 alise, handwaving isn't really accepted anywhere in math. It isn't like people try to routinely hand-wave use of not yet proved hypotheses and so on. Oh wait, they are. 21:13:20 Handwaving is very much accepted for trivial things. 21:13:29 You think Wiles' FLT proof would have been simple if it proved every single thing it stated? 21:13:44 alise, yes I know. I was joking 21:13:50 Also, yeah, exactly, if my disproof is correct that's quite a bit of mathematics out the door... 21:13:56 So much stuff just implicitly depends on the Riemann hypothesis. 21:17:24 alise, indeed. 21:18:08 alise, but I would say the chances of it having a small but important flaw is more than 50%, considering how much time has been spent on trying to prove or disprove it 21:18:28 Wiles' first proof had a major flaw, but it was corrected. 21:18:37 true 21:19:19 alise, actually he had to redo large parts to fix it iirc 21:20:33 Large but not immense. 21:20:38 true 21:20:51 alise, but that is only because the complete proof was huge 21:21:24 Hooray, I've got HTML 5 video on youtube working. 21:21:43 pikhq: Me too; with what? 21:21:48 alise, iirc it proved one or two other open problems that it then used in the "main" proof. That kind of gives you some "modularity". 21:21:49 Or do you mean YouTube's HTML5 support? 21:21:54 I've got it working with mplayer. Nyaah. 21:21:54 Youtube's HTML5 support. 21:21:57 pikhq: It sucks. 21:22:10 I suggest using the YouTube Without Flash Auto userscript (with some tweaking). 21:22:14 Works fine with Midori (with some tweaking). 21:22:17 alise: Linky? 21:22:24 Supports native (likely mplayer), VLC and HTML 5. 21:22:25 (or pastebin of tweaks) 21:22:28 pikhq: I'll pastie you my updated version. 21:22:35 Sweet. 21:23:04 Still, just using