< 1283212908 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this retroforth is frustrating < 1283212909 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Too bad! < 1283212913 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and undocumented < 1283212914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: so what /does/ Alt+D do in the editor < 1283212918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: older retroforth was better < 1283212919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :methinks < 1283212924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they've recently redone it all < 1283212930 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: In MegaZeux, you mean? < 1283212937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: in your fork < 1283212950 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt+D toggles default color for objects on/off in my fork. It does the same thing in the original DOS versions. < 1283212965 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, in the modern mainstream MegaZeux, ALT+D in the editor does the same as ALT+E ALT+D < 1283213039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: can you tell qbasic to stop UPPERCASING all my code? < 1283213072 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If you have QuickBASIC Extended, you can open the file in "document" mode and it will stop reformatting your code. < 1283213093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only have QBasic, because I am but a pilgrim. (I can get QuickBASIC, but *eh*) < 1283213097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QBasic is fast enough, right? :-P < 1283213122 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It depends what you are making! < 1283213308 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283213332 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Later when I make up my own design of computer system, it will include ForthBASIC which allows you to make games and other programs using the built-in Forth or BASIC systems. They can even use game conrtollers, since the computer will have game controller ports on the front and can be used easily as game console system.) < 1283213389 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283213398 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The BASIC mode is not intended for writing new programs, it is intended mostly for compatibility with programs in old books. And will probably be designed to require line numbers. Forth mode can be used for new programs, or for system administration. Native codes are also usable. Still, you can write new programs in BASIC if you want to.) < 1283213604 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1283214098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qbasic is so liberating < 1283214105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHO CARES ABOUT STRUCTS?? JUST USE GLOBALS! < 1283214298 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1283214299 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Structures are useful too, in QBASIC, though. (Use the TYPE command to create structures) < 1283214301 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what? < 1283214309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: NOBODY NEEDS STRUCTURES < 1283214329 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Structures are also useful in other programming languages, too. < 1283214348 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283214369 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you are correct, that many of these things can be done without type structures < 1283214374 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But sometimes it is useful anyways < 1283214412 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type structures might be useful to load/save the state of a program in a file, using GET and PUT commands, for instance. < 1283214447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you just list the variables to save < 1283214461 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, you can. And I have used that way too. < 1283214507 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But instead of listing them twice, I use something like FileInt and FileLong and then define those subroutines to use GET or PUT depending on the value of a issaving global variable. < 1283214517 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also make FileString for variable length strings. < 1283214529 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which is something that the TYPE command cannot use) < 1283214540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is WEIRD how qbasic separates the subs into different windows < 1283214605 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do not want to use the QBASIC editor, you can just edit it in a separate program and then use QBASIC /RUN to run the program. (Put SYSTEM at the end of the program to cause it to exit QBASIC after it is finished running, this works if the /RUN option is given) < 1283214748 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283214786 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Forth generally a used language for DSLs? < 1283214790 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know that in MegaZeux, the A_SPEC_BOMB flag does nothing, and the A_SPEC_PUSH is the same as A_PUSHABLE flag? These are not features I have added. They were like that when Gregory Janson designed MegaZeux. < 1283214807 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: What do you mean by DSLs? < 1283214817 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Domain Specific Language < 1283214825 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: bye < 1283214832 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Forth can certainly be used for those purposes. < 1283214843 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it _can_ < 1283214848 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it a good idea, or bad idea? < 1283214855 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does it better than other general use programming languages do. < 1283214864 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is sometimes a good idea, it depends what you are making. < 1283214871 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants to do AWelectronics in Forth, instead of Haskell as originally planned
< 1283214883 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: What is AWelectronics? < 1283214906 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AW logic gates and so forth, hopefully to build a computer < 1283214913 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I think should be a stack machine < 1283214914 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: sorry, I went out. < 1283214917 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1283214918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Forth IS DSLs. < 1283214929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every word can read an arbitrary number of words or characters ahead of it. < 1283214931 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if boost is dynamically linked, you need -rpath, which is EVIL < 1283214941 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth is much better for domain specific languages than other general purpose programming languages are. < 1283214953 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it turns out keyboard space is limited, I'd just have the user enter hex digits... < 1283214957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: In fact, you don't write Forth libraries. < 1283214964 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamically linking and boost do not go together generally < 1283214965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You write Forth languages. < 1283214982 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Soviet Russia, Forth libraries write YOU!!! < 1283214986 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, is there a generally accepted way to isolate dictionaries? < 1283214987 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, boost and dynamic linking should never ever be used together < 1283214990 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And sandbox Forth? < 1283214993 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc.? < 1283215001 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because Boost makes new SONAMEs every version < 1283215001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why are you so obsessed with sandboxing < 1283215003 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or would I have to write that code myself if I wanted to do that? < 1283215006 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, because I am < 1283215011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I refuse to answer. < 1283215011 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all you're doing is wasting space < 1283215016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: FWIW, King is ludicrously slow in QBASIC < 1283215041 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You can isolate dictionaries, but how it is done depends on the Forth system you are using. < 1283215050 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, maybe for Warrigal's new nomic... < 1283215126 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We need ForthNomic ASAP < 1283215137 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you want to add security stuff and various things like that, it is better built in to the Forth interpreter, before Forth is entered. < 1283215146 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That is interesting idea. Now invent it < 1283215228 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How often is LOCAL| used, and is it standard? < 1283215255 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I don't know the answer to that question, unfortunately < 1283215275 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use it often < 1283215299 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I suppose it can be useful in a few cases..... < 1283215364 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes use the return stack to store a temporary value if it is needed, although usually the data stack is good enough < 1283215384 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants a quiz
< 1283215393 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give me some parenthesized arithmatic to RPNize < 1283215513 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x=(4+x+y)*(y%(x+4))*(x%(y+4)); < 1283215565 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style. < 1283215601 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1283215610 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x y 4 + + y x 4 + % * x y 4 + % * < 1283215617 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my answer: "(4+x+y)*(y%(x+4))*(x%(y+4))" toformula calculate x store < 1283215662 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes that is RPNized. < 1283215665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: % won't be defined, most likely < 1283215666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1283215671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you never really do stuff like that in forth :P < 1283215677 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Forth, generally MOD is used for modulo < 1283215678 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what, why not? < 1283215683 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x=y=(4+x+y)*(y%(x+4))*(x%(y+4)); < 1283215694 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Where X and Y variables) < 1283215697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because % is a Cism < 1283215701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll most likely be mod if anything < 1283215703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rem < 1283215705 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: return d = w1 = 300+rz+-587 / 644%s(609 / 556) / -648-543 / -382*o8(950%146 / 891, -933 / d6[-519][13]*333)*547+-74*752; < 1283215712 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...? < 1283215721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ? < 1283215724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :were you talking to me < 1283215732 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, do you have nooga on ignore? < 1283215735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1283215766 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm afraid of this becoming real: http://www.theonion.com/video/in-the-know-are-tests-biased-against-students-who,17966/ < 1283215767 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "stuff like that", all you meant was the % ? < 1283215789 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 x @ y @ + + y @ x @ 4 + MOD x @ y @ 4 + MOD * * DUP y ! x ! < 1283215791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: standardised tests are biased against people who are actually intelligent < 1283215803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is worse < 1283215815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no, just < 1283215815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1283215817 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: @ ? < 1283215831 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be broken down into words? < 1283215842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1283215842 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, roughly Forth's dereference < 1283215847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not roughly < 1283215848 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY IS IT IMPOSSIBLE TO FREAKING LEFT-ALIGN AN EQUATION. GOD. < 1283215848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly that < 1283215853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reads a word from memory < 1283215890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=left+align+latex+equation&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= < 1283215894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I found it in two sections. Can you? < 1283215897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\begin{equation*} < 1283215902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If yo uwant indented, put fleqn in document class < 1283215907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and \setlength{\mathindent}{...} < 1283215908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you want < 1283215913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lesson to be learned: Google < 1283215916 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Do you have a text version of that article? < 1283215941 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I spent a long time Googling. < 1283215946 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you have computer capable of displaying websites? < 1283215949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, it's too scholarly < 1283215956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to be displayed in the audiovisual format < 1283215961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it presents 57 well-researched graphs < 1283215974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dedicated to the proposition "are tests biased against students who don't give a shit?". < 1283215985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WARNING: BLATANT LIES < 1283215989 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: unfortunately not < 1283215997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing with the onion is < 1283216007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they start with the title and just write the rest based on that (they have stated this) < 1283216012 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, it wouldn't be conveyed correctly; when they do their panels it's not like a traditional news report < 1283216013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means reading the whole thing is almost always pointless < 1283216154 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I write a DVI driver? So that I can make TeXnicard < 1283216201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: We don't know. < 1283216232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Amiga was killed by this patent: < 1283216235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The XOR patent covers the use of the machine language XOR (exclusive-or) < 1283216235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :operator to make a cursor blink in a bitmapped display. < 1283216241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: YOUR NOSTALGIA: CRUSHED < 1283216243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://xcssa.org/pipermail/xcssa/2005-February/002587.html < 1283216265 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not the only one with severe nostalgia issues? < 1283216272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you are < 1283216281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey was just mildly nostalgic for the amiga an hour or two ago < 1283216284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yours is crippling < 1283216357 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283216363 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not impacting the quality of my life < 1283216369 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not not trying new things < 1283216388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you are spending a hell of a lot of time with old things that nobody cares about :P < 1283216407 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But _I_ care about those things < 1283216415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so do at least a few other people, usually < 1283216420 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, there is XOR patent like that? In CZZT, it uses XOR to make blinking text. (But this is not the cursor) < 1283216423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have also said that the currency you care about is attention < 1283216428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so clearly there is a contradiction here < 1283216475 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the AW community is small enough for a single individual to potentially make waves, even to this day, and large enough to satisfy my attention needs < 1283216920 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283217297 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what are some uses of [ ] without LITERAL? < 1283217304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: don't know < 1283217312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask zzo :P < 1283217312 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, is Win32Forth decent or horrible? < 1283217440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Horrible. < 1283217443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost certainly. < 1283217934 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a good Forth for Windows < 1283217962 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, why does a Google for Forth LiveCD not find anything < 1283218039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, screw it, I am *not* going to type this assignment up. < 1283218052 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO MANY GRAPHS < 1283218056 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO FUCKING MANY GRAPHS < 1283218062 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY ARE THERE SO MANY GRAPHS < 1283218260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: because what would a forth livecd be? < 1283218328 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some very minimal kernal that had the bare minimum of non-Forth-written Forth interpreter stuff, plus some Forth code, all loaded in < 1283218339 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like Losethos, except Forth and decent < 1283218370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just have an asm forth interp and then a forth os? < 1283218372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's easier < 1283218374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and coole < 1283218398 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ... on a LiveCD < 1283218416 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make it more accessible < 1283218416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cooler < 1283218421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that's what i meant < 1283218422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except not a cd < 1283218424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be a floppy < 1283218425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forth code is tiny < 1283218427 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That works < 1283218441 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, except fewer and fewer computers have floppy drives.. < 1283218441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe 5-10k for the compiler < 1283218448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so put it on a usb stick < 1283218454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1-2k for the base set of words < 1283218466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then maybe 5-7k for a usable OS, perhaps even with a GUI < 1283218566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1283218577 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283218584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could fit a web browser and an irc client in 1.44 mb of forth OS < 1283218588 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear school < 1283218591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oberon packs all that in, forth would pack in even more I bet < 1283218605 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck you in the ass for making me install Symantec < 1283218628 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oberon? < 1283218657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Niklaus Wirth's latest language, successor to pascal etc < 1283218659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very cool < 1283218662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very small spec (smaller than r5rs) < 1283218666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS is very minimal < 1283218670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inspired plan 9's acme < 1283218693 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, it's old? < 1283218703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modula-2 is like early 90s < 1283218708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the os is a bit old < 1283218710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it works fine < 1283218717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1283218718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oberon 2 < 1283218719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1283218725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a 2007 revision < 1283218734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oberon originally came about 86 or thereabouts < 1283218753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[The Oberon OS is available for several other hardware platforms, generally in no cost versions. It is typically extremely compact. Even with an Oberon compiler, assorted utilities including a web browser, TCP/IP networking, and a GUI, the entire package fits on a single 3.5" floppy disk. The version which runs on bare PC hardware is called Native Oberon.]] < 1283218826 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should attempt to determine an upper bound on memory an AW computer can have < 1283218851 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although at this point, the bound would be much, much, higher than an AW computer could ever actually have < 1283218893 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine, if you will, a VHDL file, that defines circuits for memory. You know the maximum size the VHDL file can have < 1283218899 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's essentially the bound I'm finding < 1283218957 0 :augur!~augur@208-58-6-161.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283218982 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say we go with Ulta < 1283218992 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11000 bytes per cell < 1283219024 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 cells by 20 cells visible at a time (it's going to be less than that) < 1283219038 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4mb < 1283219060 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And keep in mind, that's orders of magnatude too big < 1283219076 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, any chance of building a decent Forth machine? < 1283219096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do forth with <10kb of ram < 1283219126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason it's primarily used in embedded stuff < 1283219129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really damn good at it < 1283219190 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should attempt to construct a memory cell, see how many I can fit per cell < 1283219197 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I'd have actually useful numbers < 1283219720 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still wants to see Forth servers
< 1283219791 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOu know what might be a nice project for me, if I got my hands on a decent Forth? < 1283219800 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making comments be compiled into word definitions < 1283219811 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then I'd have to modify SEE to recognize it :/ < 1283219818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think gforth does that < 1283219821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gforth sucks though < 1283219864 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What shouldn't I use Forth for? < 1283220091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing! < 1283220095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's jawsome. < 1283220097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even web development! < 1283220124 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Querying 'se': ";; flags: qr rd ra ad; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 4, ADDITIONAL: 1."... DNSSEC is actually getting deployed... < 1283220204 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ponders how one would go about adding static typing...
< 1283220234 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Is the stack usually defined at the non-Forth interpreter level? < 1283220235 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: see the Cat language < 1283220240 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that shouldn't be a problem < 1283220288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hasn't heard more about Cat in a while though
< 1283220406 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Forth_Lesson_4 < 1283220406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_(programming_language) < 1283220411 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, no RECURSE word? < 1283220423 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just RECURSIVE flag thingy? < 1283220471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: eh? < 1283220524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1283220528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recursive flag is cool :P < 1283220576 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's completely needless < 1283220712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1283220715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with it < 1283220956 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1283220973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it is not clear to me that cdiggins ever got around to actually implementing the static typing part of Cat < 1283221018 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it _was_ rather awkward to do inference, i recall < 1283221045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it seems to have been dormant since 2007 < 1283221095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically stack languages with arbitrary no. of input and output are not good matches for the usual type inferencing algorithms < 1283221446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he did < 1283221448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty sure < 1283221478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://groups.google.com/group/catlanguage < 1283221480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not so dormant < 1283221495 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that wikipedia claims the main implementation does not actually support static typing < 1283221503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1283221511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's something that does, i think < 1283221514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some cat implementation < 1283221517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or sub-implementation, etc < 1283221599 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"not so dormant" seems only technically correct in this case (the best kind of correct, of course) < 1283221622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was doing experimental stuff related to it as of a year ago or s < 1283221623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*or so < 1283221626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a year or so ago < 1283221645 0 :yiyus_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1283221658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I want to create a Forth OS now... damn you. < 1283221768 0 :cheater-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1283221895 0 :yiyus_!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1283222282 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1283222700 0 :cheater99!~cheater@p5B216CE5.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283223485 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Words do not express my tiredness < 1283223580 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try an interpretive dance < 1283224497 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I like Forth's native approach to modularity: Don't worry about overriding something, it won't break anything < 1283224499 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, wait < 1283224517 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might break future code that was expecting to use something that was accidentally overridden < 1283224951 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1283225323 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283225537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: So, let's see about that build system. < 1283225626 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-205.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283225735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Is it going to be autohell? < 1283226024 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: BTW, AC_CHECK_LIB is a macro that should die. < 1283226044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I warn you, I have Makefile powers and I'm not afraid to use them. < 1283226050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1283226123 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: This uses Boost. If it used saner packages, I'd just make it a very simple Makefile. < 1283226136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: pkg-config dude < 1283226147 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Boost does not install .pc files. < 1283226155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then just link the .as in < 1283226177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It spreads headers everywhere. < 1283226195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And its own build system. < 1283226226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION nukes the support for precompiled headers
< 1283226238 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1283226253 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jonesforth uses [COMPILE], but according to wiki, ANS Forth uses POSTPONE < 1283226264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Would you say you feel safe in only supporting environments with C99? Yes? Okay, there goes 3/4ths of the configure.ac < 1283226267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANS Forth is a bit rubbish < 1283226273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although quite well-supported < 1283226283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I like how you're making it simpler for me to turn it into a Makefile. < 1283226285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:) < 1283226295 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hey, this doesn't even use conf.h. < 1283226305 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh < 1283226305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then. Makefile anyone? < 1283226311 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did I forget about :NONAME ? < 1283226347 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting to think that Win32Forth is rubbish for learning Forth < 1283226356 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see :NONAME < 1283226356 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :: :NONAME ALIGN HERE "0x509E8C" ; ok < 1283226388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Win32Forth is rubbish < 1283226395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even gforth sounds better than that < 1283226396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait. If this doesn't use conf.h then *there's no point to most of the configure script*. < 1283226420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Makefile~ < 1283226421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1283226439 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so what good Win32 ANS Forths are there? < 1283226456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i refuse to answer that question because you specified ANS < 1283226461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is irrelevant < 1283226509 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine < 1283226515 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHat good Win32 Forths are there? < 1283226521 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll make them ANS myself if I have to < 1283226546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why do you care so much about ans? < 1283226558 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, because I like standards and portability < 1283226561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of the best forth programmers including chuck moore don't like it, it's basically irrelevant in practice < 1283226563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and forth is NOT portable < 1283226566 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It also checks for atomic primitives and never does anything with the results of that test. *sigh* < 1283226569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's close to the metal and to the implementation < 1283226570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on _purpose_ < 1283226587 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, src/util/atomic.hpp. < 1283226601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you should stop approaching every language with the same mindset :| < 1283226659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, no point to that check at all. __GNUC__ should suffice. < 1283226671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, no, never mind. It wouldn't. < 1283226685 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with Gforth? < 1283226714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too hosted < 1283226716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too many OS niceties < 1283226728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not the point of forth, it's not how you get to know how to use forth in a way that really exercises its strength < 1283226732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*strengths < 1283226732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1283226818 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll avoid the Gforth-specific stuff then < 1283226845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You're going to try and code pure ANS Forth, aren't you? < 1283226850 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1283226859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-__- < 1283226862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see linking JonesForth helped not one bit. < 1283226865 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AC_CHECK_FUNCS([floor memset pow select sqrt]) < 1283226870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That line makes me a sad panda. < 1283226878 0 :cheater99!~cheater@p5B216CE5.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283226881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are not going to be able to use Forth how it's intended to be used, Sgeo < 1283226882 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes me understand how a Forth can work < 1283226888 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*made < 1283226904 0 :Vegabondmx!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Vegabondmx < 1283226904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you're sticking to ANS Forth, it is irrelevant; it could be coded as stupidly as Python because you refuse to exercise its capabilities. < 1283226906 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are most metal-level Forths not ANS + extas < 1283226920 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*extras like asm-level stuff? < 1283226928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm-level stuff? Dude, Forth IS asm-level stuff. < 1283226929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ < 1283226930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1283226934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's peek and poke right there. < 1283226941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's /not/ a high-level language. < 1283226951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it IS, but it's not not low level, either. < 1283226971 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Find me a Forth LiveCD < 1283227108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You *love* you some cargo-cult programming, don't you? < 1283227445 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be a language were all constructs are metaphors to balancing online games. < 1283227463 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Empowering, depowering, complicating, and stripping objects. < 1283227483 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program is exited once balance is achieved < 1283227499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magicseteditor_CXXFLAGS = $(AM_CXXFLAGS) < 1283227501 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1283227566 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Designing-the-stack-effect-Tutorial.html#Designing-the-stack-effect-Tutorial < 1283227587 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1283227626 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION growls at non-standard { }
< 1283227645 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess it's easy to add < 1283227690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: >_< < 1283227691 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :endif?!?!?!?? < 1283227697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay listen < 1283227697 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Conditional-execution-Tutorial.html#Conditional-execution-Tutorial < 1283227711 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gforth is not the standards torch-bearer that I expected < 1283227715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. Stop being obsessed with ANS Forth. IT SUCKS. Use the strengths of the implementation. 2. gforth has basically no strengths < 1283227727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... Your "--debug" flag is stupid. Don't do it. < 1283227734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chuck Moore hates ANS Forth. When the creator of a language hates the standard, IT SUCKS. < 1283227737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth is so low-level. < 1283227741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're asking for portable assembly. < 1283227742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's ludicrous. < 1283227747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth is useless without its low-level toolkit. < 1283227827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh @ { ... } < 1283227828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Locals sucks < 1283227830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*suck < 1283227854 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, does that include LOCAL| ? < 1283227859 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just { } ? < 1283227865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Locals, as a general rule, suck. < 1283227889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: But seriously: LISTEN to my last few lines. < 1283227896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't, you'll never be able to use Forth effectively. < 1283227968 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What good Win32 Forths are there, and what good bare-metal Forths are there? < 1283228001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bare-metal Forths: often you write one yourself. it's hardware, situation - specific. < 1283228015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win32 forths: it is ok to us gforth as long as you don't use its os integration, just the pure forth parts. but ANS devotion is /wrong/ < 1283228026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :retro forth might be cool i guess if you can figure out the weird new version < 1283228061 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gforth does not seem to be ANS devoted < 1283228079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying that your code shouldn't be ANS devoted. < 1283228124 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When doing something practical, sure. But what about academic exercizes? < 1283228134 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1283228134 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1283228144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even moreso them. < 1283228148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*exercises, also. < 1283228161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANS is basically irrelevant. Pretending it doesn't exist is a good start. < 1283228172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh sure, the implementations claim standards-compliance, but that's just to tick the boxes. < 1283228176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not important. < 1283228234 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be possible to write tail-recurse using return stack manipulation, right? < 1283228245 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh, yeah. BTW. AM_LDFLAGS is the wrong place to place libraries. < 1283228254 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing that will make it fail to build on modern distros. < 1283228254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes, of course. < 1283228258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RECURSE is tail-recursive, I think. < 1283228260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure. < 1283228262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not. < 1283228268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think such a word exists, though. < 1283228293 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which implementation? >:D < 1283228326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's fairly common. I forget the name. < 1283228346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ColorForth has it without trying :P < 1283228348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's cheating < 1283228354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it has way different :/; semantics < 1283228360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and conditionals (no else clause) < 1283228391 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been pondering hypothetical AW SDK bindings to a Forth < 1283228398 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION prepares to be slapped
< 1283228411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate you. < 1283228414 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking I'd make an rc2ex, but I guess it makes more sense to redefine throw < 1283228429 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-239-43.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283228496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :: min 2dup > if swap then drop ; < 1283228501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so poetic < 1283228504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if swap then drop! < 1283228505 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Waitwaitwait. The makefile *doesn't* install the data. < 1283228508 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*groan* < 1283228546 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack-effect comment for 2dup please? < 1283228552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a b -- a b a b < 1283228556 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1283228578 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that's rather simple < 1283228584 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would likely NOT think of that < 1283228600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i saw : min 2dup < if drop else nip endif ; in the gforth manual < 1283228603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it told me to rewrite it without else < 1283228609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i just thought about the logic for a second < 1283228618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, it takes practice to get good at factoring... < 1283228658 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Gforth does define THEN , right? < 1283228731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1283228734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just quoted literally < 1283228817 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should write PSOX in Forth < 1283228940 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You know what? Fuck that damned thing's design to hell. It should be rewritten. < 1283228951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You have license to do your NIH thing. < 1283229026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He needs to know how to create a DVI driver! < 1283229405 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AWCREATE S" auth.activeworlds.com" 6767 THROW VARIABLE INSTANCE INSTANCE ! < 1283229431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1283229440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the hell did you write it like that < 1283229442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firstly < 1283229446 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm? < 1283229448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable declarations go before other code kthx < 1283229449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :secondly < 1283229451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CUT THE CAPS < 1283229455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thirdly < 1283229458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you throwing there < 1283229469 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, because AWCREATE returns an error code < 1283229483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1283229486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your design sucks < 1283229493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable instance < 1283229496 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's how it works in the AW SDK < 1283229500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s" auth.activeworlds.com" 6767 aw-connect instance ! < 1283229502 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283229506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but the AW SDK sucks, I think we can conclude. < 1283229513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, hyphenated names, man < 1283229514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use them < 1283229520 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, parameters before the word < 1283229527 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was a Forth thinking fail < 1283229531 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not an AW SDK fail < 1283229582 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-201-34.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283229583 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You still need a throw, or if you're going to ignore the return code, a drop < 1283229631 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, does throw attempt to interpret error codes? < 1283229635 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or what? < 1283229937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see throw < 1283229955 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STUFF! < 1283229972 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Havem < 1283229979 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't downloaded Gforth yet < 1283230043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STUFF!? < 1283230062 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Unfortunately, f~, the standard word for that purpose, is not well designed, so Gforth provides f~abs and f~rel as well." < 1283230069 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wht's wrong with f~ ? < 1283230072 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not literally < 1283230082 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just return stack stuff I don't understand < 1283230158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the floating point stuff is shit < 1283230160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest not using it < 1283230162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really complex < 1283230164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :floating point sucks anyway < 1283230384 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already know not to use fp for currency, or anything requiring precise stuff < 1283230403 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Floating-point issues do have interesting consequences in Second Life < 1283230596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fp is just evil < 1283230658 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other programmer on the Project decided to use floating-point to store position, despite AW using ints... < 1283230679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1283230704 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have just sighed and not cared if it didn't introduce a bug that was fixed by me adding int-based positions to the code < 1283230717 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meaning there are two ways to store positions, that must be converted between < 1283230879 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and therefore this practice was been declared non-standard in 1999." < 1283230926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1283230930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283231747 0 :TTUser!~TTandMe@d118-75-218-139.try.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283231757 0 :TTUser!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1283231760 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283231772 0 :augur!~augur@208-58-6-161.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283231785 0 :TTUser!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so...what happens here < 1283231935 0 :TTUser!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1283232666 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I hate most of it < 1283232682 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for a few bits, the main code isn't mine < 1283233196 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283233844 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It amazes me that the US *still* has not converted to metric. < 1283233861 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on you fools, just freaking do it. < 1283233943 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worst part is, a *lot* of things here are actually *dimensioned* in metric, but *sold* in customary units... < 1283234043 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow, it makes more sense to label something as being 23.7 fl oz. than 700 mL. < 1283234788 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283236807 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1283238029 0 :cheater99!~cheater@p54972462.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283239176 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@i-15.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1283239307 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-115.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283240287 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1283240457 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1283240823 0 :wareya_!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283241025 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1283241062 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Quit < 1283241225 0 :relet!~hirtho@159.162.68.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283241599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1283241600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1283244094 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283245986 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1283249366 0 :ais523!~ais523@147.188.254.137 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283249367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1283249367 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283250977 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, reddit found this interesting ontopic link: http://github.com/resistor/BrainFTracing < 1283250989 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1283251000 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an LLVM-based tracing JIT for Brainfuck < 1283251075 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to the comments, it's quite a bit slower than esotope < 1283251080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that was alise's comment < 1283251088 0 :wareya_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :wareya < 1283251096 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must have been discussed while I wasn't here... < 1283251307 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds like it should be, since there's the tracing overhead. BrainFuck is a strange thing to JIT, but I do understand it's more of an LLVM example. < 1283251329 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't remember seeing any discussion on-channel, but I don't always follow things very well. < 1283251396 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also the way esotope analyses idioms statically < 1283251408 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only other compilers I know that do that are in-between for BF, and C-INTERCAL for INTERCAL < 1283251510 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm doing too many other things atm, but if I wasn't busy with anything else I'd probably try to write a BF compiler that beats esotope < 1283251632 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That JIT thing does [-], but on the other one everyone does that. < 1283251654 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style. < 1283251738 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a "jump table idiom" heuristic in my static Funge-98 compiler (funcot), but it's pretty trivial, not-always-correct, and done purely to be able to follow the control flow over "j"s with a non-constant offset. < 1283251846 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it fallback or break in the case where it isn't correct? < 1283251942 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Break, since it infeasible to follow all possible ways a j can go; and it's a purely static compiler, so there's not much it can do on runtime if it fails. (I seem to recall it fails cleanly, though; if the j offset is outside the "expected" boundaries, it'll die cleanly. (For some values of "clean".)) < 1283252053 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how common the idiom is, anyway; it's been tuned to work with my code (the j instances found in fungot), so for a non-constant j it expects absolute direction-setting commands immediately after the j, like "[...]jvvvvvvv". < 1283252053 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: a small number of gp at the battle arena were done by a huge barrier of light. < 1283252063 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1283252063 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1283252068 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, still that. < 1283252101 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, crashing cleanly isn't really breaking < 1283252125 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have this speech corpus in Finnish I could feed to him, but we don't exactly (yet) have a .fi majority here. < 1283252149 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the rest of us wouldn't realise it was nonsensical < 1283252154 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although we could probably guess < 1283252194 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no real reason why you couldn't add it as an option alongside the English ones < 1283252265 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish That's true; after all, we already have a Swedish-speaking thing. < 1283252274 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thet's trooe-a; effter ell, ve-a elreedy hefe-a a Svedeesh-speekeeng theeng. \ Bork Bork Bork! < 1283252292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, I wrote a fuzz-test for the C-INTERCAL optimiser last night < 1283252295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's found bugs already < 1283252331 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, as is often the case with fuzz-tests, I'm not entirely sure what the bugs are even after it's found them < 1283253336 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, the scripts I have for fungot seem to have some trouble with äös. < 1283253336 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i never saw that report... where is the end. and, this is it! all right, you're right...... < 1283253416 0 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1283253418 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1283253552 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1283254527 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283254970 0 :iGO!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1283254976 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, esr is trying to prove to me over email that it's legal in the UK and US to relicense GPL code as BSD without permission from its author < 1283255043 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, there's exactly one actual binding precedent decision AFAIK, /Jacobsen v Katzer/ < 1283255077 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1283255080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it, plus a few other statements, proves relatively convincingly that it's illegal to relicense code under the Artistic License as BSD (because the verdict disallowed Artistic -> proprietary, and if you could do that via BSD it would be pointless) < 1283255121 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The origin of code that was relicened doesn't matter as long as the relicense is complete < 1283255131 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relicensed* < 1283255459 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1283255500 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if my project uses a GNU GPL lib, do i have to GPL the whole source? < 1283255550 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: it depends on how tightly the library binds to the rest of the source < 1283255560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but generally, GPL libs don't mix well with non-GPL source; that's why the LGPL exists < 1283255589 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my project is written in a script language, i just include the lib source and make several function calls < 1283255591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are "definitely illegal" and "definitely legal" combinations and a whole gray area in between... < 1283255620 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ it's optional, library is only for graphing, so the application works without it, may be treated as a plug-in < 1283255628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: are you using only documented APIs? and could the library function as a seperate module from the rest of the app? < 1283255644 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1283255646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, connecting via RPC over the internet or something, in theory? < 1283255668 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could < 1283255673 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, it's a gray area but probably OK; it's in much the same area as the whole libreadline thing, which people still bitch about to this day on occasion < 1283255930 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh whee, i'm downloading a webcomic to my PC < 1283255938 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using a .cmd script and wget < 1283256197 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel for you, having to wrestle with cmd scripting < 1283256205 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although hopefully wget's powerful enough that it isn't so bad < 1283256231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, cmd finally started copying UNIX shell scripts in many respects, and became a lot better as a result) < 1283256358 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am still on XP < 1283256361 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only took 5 minutes < 1283256374 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i already downloaded 37% of it (1000 strips) < 1283256445 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :were you obeying the site's robots.txt < 1283256454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do the download with a single wget command, it does that automatically < 1283256468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but presumably if you have a separate wget command for each strip it doesn't < 1283256624 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i use a separate wget command for each strip < 1283256626 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the site has a format of: < 1283256632 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hundreds number)/(comic number).gif < 1283256638 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i run my .cmd for each 100 strips < 1283256762 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the numbers of the first and last strip? < 1283256773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do the comic numbers include the hundreds, or not? < 1283256783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to see how quickly I can write this in UNIX shellscrip < 1283256786 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shellscript < 1283256831 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 - the first strip is 1.gif (hundreds number being 0) < 1283256842 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the comic numbers include the hundreds < 1283256863 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thelast strip is 1000.gif (i'd assume the hundreds number would be 10 this time, but not sure) < 1283256907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... what about this: (for x in `seq 1 1000`; do echo http://example.com/comics/$(($x/100))/$x.gif) | xargs wget < 1283256909 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tests with echo
< 1283256942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it's (for x in `seq 1 1000`; do echo http://example.com/comics/$(($x/100))/$x.gif; done) | xargs wget < 1283256945 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot to end the loop < 1283256945 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1283256956 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm already 55% through < 1283256960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, that's a one-liner, and even does things like reusing HTTP connections < 1283256964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may as well go the rest of the way < 1283256971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long is your script, btw? < 1283256978 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1283256982 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've had a separate script for 1-99 < 1283256990 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm downloading 1000 manually < 1283256990 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1283256990 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for /L %%J IN (0,1,9) DO wget http://undefined.net/1/0/%1/%10%%J.gif < 1283256991 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for /L %%J IN (10,1,99) DO wget http://undefined.net/1/0/%1/%1%%J.gif < 1283256998 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i revealed the webcomic here, too < 1283257005 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to me you didn't < 1283257015 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for %1 (first param) being equal to 1 < 1283257020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hmm, makes sense, but rather repetitive < 1283257030 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gives http://undefined.net/1/0/1/100.gif < 1283257037 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION vaguely wonders if Windows cmd does arithmetic yet
< 1283257081 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curl can do the sequence bit independently, but probably couldn't quite do the hundreds-numbers. < 1283257092 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have done a bash arithmetic for-loop instead of seq, but that's just me. < 1283257131 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot < 1283257131 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: that means there ain't no gettin' to him.). < 1283257132 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1283257133 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1283257140 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hey, my youtube style is still here < 1283257146 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style youtube < 1283257147 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) < 1283257149 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hello! < 1283257149 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: holly shit this game could've been one of the controls during the cold war. < 1283257160 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: and what was being controlled? < 1283257161 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: a website of one of those two were doin each other! lol, this aircraft crashed was because of the best stories with this < 1283257176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now all we need is for fungot to post these on appropriate videos < 1283257176 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i'm still trying to slow the plain down. duke is still herself. gosh." < 1283257295 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make a youtube comment parser and make it download all comments for a list of like 1000 videos < 1283257313 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie - would fungot lag at a style made with a 15-20MB text file? < 1283257314 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: he wasen't flying so slow with an iq over 50. full crew and 130 passengers, 6 crew members and officials were charged with man slaughter < 1283257537 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it doesn't keep that stuff in memory. < 1283257567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1283257567 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* < 1283257574 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :large memory wouldn't cause lag anyway, would it, assuming it uses some sort of hash table for fungespace? < 1283257579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and if it's running on cfunge, at least, it does) < 1283257649 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The europarl sources are something like 80 megs, and the irclogs are reasonably huge too. < 1283257701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :115M model.bin.europarl 187M model.bin.irc < 1283257761 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The model size is somewhat proportional to the amount of text data, given the same sort of settings and so on.) < 1283257796 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style europarl < 1283257796 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) < 1283257803 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In other news, my fungot installation seems to take ~600 megabytes of disk space.) < 1283257804 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: welcome < 1283257806 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i would like to thank you for your kind words. i would also ask you to distinguish between three types of approach: strengthening the foundation for trust by the public in the field of human rights in the turkish-cypriot state than a turkish cypriot and a portuguese national, i would like to ask your attention for the victims of this religious policy: christians attached to churches which are not in salaried work, it wa < 1283257807 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of women and the many women whose children have been abducted to western fnord and there has been a considerable increase in the time of the last nominations. ladies and gentlemen, i am sure that the commission has presented two proposals for the reform of the employment strategy and provides for operations that are not clear and it must lead on to a discussion of the erika, < 1283257814 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my < 1283257816 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh my < 1283257834 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's strange, it sent both replies to me. < 1283257847 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we clearly need to rescue these poor children from Western Fnord! < 1283257893 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1283257893 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1283257895 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style irc < 1283257896 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) < 1283257900 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello fungot! < 1283257901 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: that sounds a bit suspicious. scheme is a first." < 1283257997 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, "hello" sounds very suspicious. < 1283258011 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beware of ircers saying "hello". < 1283258012 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283258619 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i love YouTube's feed API < 1283258636 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tutorial to getting comments out: < 1283258648 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) grab the XML from http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds/api/videos/video ID/comments < 1283258657 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) go inside the < 1283258682 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3) iterate through all the tags getting the data inside the tag < 1283258684 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4) voila < 1283258694 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just love and adore XML now < 1283260661 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is there a way to use Sed to wipe any ASCII chars that aren't 32-127? < 1283260953 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283261013 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be a bit sed-specific... piping through tr -cd ' -~' seems to work here. < 1283261047 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@iris:~$ echo -e '\x10foo\x90bar' | hexdump -C < 1283261047 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00000000 10 66 6f 6f 90 62 61 72 0a |.foo.bar.| < 1283261047 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00000009 < 1283261047 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@iris:~$ echo -e '\x10foo\x90bar' | tr -cd ' -~' | hexdump -C < 1283261047 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00000000 66 6f 6f 62 61 72 |foobar| < 1283261088 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason sed here doesn't like "[^ -~]" as a character range. < 1283261180 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1283261185 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've made a set of cmd scripts and java classes < 1283261190 0 :Zuu!zuu@0x55529f1b.adsl.cybercity.dk JOIN :#esoteric < 1283261191 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1283261191 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283261197 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to download youtube comments and parse them into a fungot-compatible format < 1283261198 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: society doesn't like people with too much time, with the second ( ( length primes) 1)... what would be the best in every metric. but all our programming was in 6th grade < 1283261404 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god < 1283261406 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 million comments < 1283261410 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you guess which video it is you win < 1283261463 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283261634 0 :Zuu!zuu@unaffiliated/zuu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283261882 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nyet! < 1283261886 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this will require more scriptery < 1283262525 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woot! < 1283262533 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am now downloading each and every comment on Justin Bieber - Baby < 1283262545 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh whee, it crashed < 1283262612 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1283262620 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youtube's API just won't let you get more than 1000 comments < 1283262632 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is still 200KB of data < 1283263135 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie < 1283263136 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wake up < 1283263147 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i already downloaded like 6 very popular YT films < 1283263157 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :524KB of YouTube comments and more coming < 1283263197 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283263205 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello ais523 < 1283263208 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just did the worst thing ever < 1283263244 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you didn't, I'm still alive and the Earth still exists < 1283263248 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i did < 1283263249 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i made an app < 1283263255 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that batch-downloads YouTube comments < 1283263261 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(up to 1000 from each video, YouTube API limitation) < 1283263269 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and used it on most popular YT videos < 1283263272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not as bad as destroying the entire universe... < 1283263279 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :giving me currently 6000 comments of YouTube stupidity with more coming < 1283263292 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 520KB < 1283263650 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-193-75.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283263691 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15 video IDs < 1283263691 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1283264288 0 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.35.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283264296 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1283264926 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.124.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283264970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:37:55 according to the comments, it's quite a bit slower than esotope ;; based on the author's post saying it's slower than a plain compiler < 1283265023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:47:12 That JIT thing does [-], but on the other one everyone does that. < 1283265026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other one WHAT? < 1283265059 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other one hand. I don't know. I must've been confusion. < 1283265074 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For example, I'm a bit away even now.) < 1283265137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:42:56 meanwhile, esr is trying to prove to me over email that it's legal in the UK and US to relicense GPL code as BSD without permission from its author < 1283265142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :refuse to help him if he does < 1283265148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem solved < 1283265154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, it won't be /your/ problem any more < 1283265190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't /think/ he will < 1283265196 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he still thinks it's a dick move even if it's legal < 1283265203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:53:40 + it's optional, library is only for graphing, so the application works without it, may be treated as a plug-in ;; Stallman is insane enough that this won't help you if he gets angry < 1283265224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:54:33 if so, it's a gray area but probably OK; it's in much the same area as the whole libreadline thing, which people still bitch about to this day on occasion < 1283265230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stallman's lawyer agreed with him on that one < 1283265236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'd be very careful there < 1283265239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1283265242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, nowadays there's libedit :) < 1283265257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think someone should put a server up somewhere which does libreadline over RPC < 1283265273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, because < 1283265296 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: anyway, the argument I just sent esr was "BSD stuff can be relicensed proprietary; therefore, if GPL can be relicensed BSD, then GPL can be relicensed proprietary by making a BSD version in between" < 1283265300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he hasn't answered that yet < 1283265418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: he's trying to comprehend the concept of "indirection" < 1283265421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may take a while < 1283265447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think someone should put a server up somewhere which does libreadline over RPC ;; ioctl over HTTP? :D < 1283265454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there's judicial precedent in the US that you can't relicense code under the Artistic License under a proprietary license that doesn't allow distribution < 1283265458 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it can send the syscalls back < 1283265484 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, readline needs ioclts? < 1283265487 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ioctls? < 1283265497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/curses/ doesn't need ioctls except to figure out the size of the screen < 1283265551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Sure it does, to uncook. < 1283265560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it uses termios or whatever it is these days. < 1283265579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Probably.) < 1283265593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, readline needs to know the width of the screen < 1283265599 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose so < 1283265701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:00:08 i just did the worst thing ever < 1283265701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:00:44 no you didn't, I'm still alive and the Earth still exists < 1283265712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if everything else but the earth was destroyed? < 1283265747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:44:38 * coppro wants to write a BF compiler in sed < 1283265749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's trivial < 1283265765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I wrote a Thue-to-sed interpreter in sed < 1283265776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(My patented today-yesterday-{start of today} log reading method!) < 1283265802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :treating the "nondeterminism" as "unspecified" rather than "multithreaded" or "backtracking" or "random" < 1283265827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:36:42 so < 1283265827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:36:49 i'm drinking organic cola < 1283265827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:36:56 and it's equally terrible as normal cola < 1283265827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make some OpenCola! < 1283265836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably awful! < 1283265858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should get around to making some Swig Ingest Drink, that was a nice recipe. < 1283265904 0 :dbc!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283266602 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie - can you add in a new style in about 5 minutes? < 1283266619 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it'd be nice if you also had my old "youtube" style in original .txt form somewhere < 1283266628 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could combine them and get 2.5 megs of comments compared to just 2 megs < 1283266690 0 :derdon!~quassel@p5B3E366F.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283267866 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1283268170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: do you know anything about freedos? < 1283268179 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i've used it < 1283268188 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i dont know about any specific features of it < 1283268211 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1283268226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: will it run a .COM that does nasty low-level tricks? to boot an operating system < 1283268238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1283268241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll just use a boot disk < 1283268255 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it might, but FreeDOS is much more picky about things < 1283268280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fff, bootdisk.com distributes as EXE < 1283268283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how irritating < 1283268320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1283268322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got one < 1283268325 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I've been irritated by that too. < 1283268353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: If it's so irritating, tell me THIS: How do I make a floppy disk image with a file in it on Linux? EH? < 1283268377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Alternatively, Unix can copy COLOR.COM to a bootable floppy with cp or dd." < 1283268378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1283268379 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's that "Non-Windows Based Image Files W/ImageApp" bit on bootdisk.com though. < 1283268385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have told me it didn't need DOS earlier, Chuck. < 1283268393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: there's also http://www.allbootdisks.com/download/dos.html < 1283268421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-floppy COLOR.COM feels so weird < 1283268435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1283268437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no floppy < 1283268443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or spoon < 1283268443 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, you make a floppy disk image with a file in it with dd'ing a suitably sized blob of zeroes, mkfs.msdos + loop-mount. For a bootable disk you'd have to do more work, though. < 1283268463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but -floppy COLOR.COM should work in a sufficiently lax VM, right? < 1283268484 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably, if it's boot-sector-friendly. < 1283268498 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1283268515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Hmph; do you know the QEMU switch to make it use regular VGA or whatever instead of the card it emulates? < 1283268560 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's "-vga type", but I'm not sure what's the right type. < 1283268574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"std: Standard VGA card with Bochs VBE extensions. If your guest OS supports the VESA 2.0 VBE extensions (e.g. Windows XP) and if you want to use high resolution modes (>= 1280x1024x16) then you should use this option." < 1283268575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :std, I think. < 1283268577 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds good. < 1283268673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many (or at least some) qemu flags can do things like "-M ?" which makes it list the available machines, but "-vga" doesn't seem to be one of those. < 1283268681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, it is still the freezy. < 1283268696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To answer my own question, I have got my modified 800x600 colorForth to _run_ < 1283268696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :under qemu-0.7.0. Won't boot 'cause the qemu emulated floppy interface is not < 1283268696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set up at fd chip level. Probably would work if the floppy I/O was BIOS based. < 1283268697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit. < 1283268704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead, I have a bare DOS boot image with just io.sys, msdos.sys, command.com < 1283268705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and c4.com. Tell qemu to boot this floppy image and when it comes up to a DOS < 1283268705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :command line, execute c4.com. This loads into memory and then copies 64k to < 1283268705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :address 0 and runs colorForth, so the floppy I/O is never used. < 1283268706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, goody. < 1283268736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't have a mkfs.msdos... < 1283268750 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ot < 1283268756 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in dosfstools. < 1283268785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION replaces FDISK with COLOR to avoid doing all that.
< 1283268798 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In other news, I was about to say: "Ot\ns om dpsfstpps.") < 1283268803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wat. < 1283268813 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In case you were wondering about the "Ot".) < 1283268816 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283268824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :colorForth boots! < 1283268828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonky QEMU scaling in effect! < 1283268837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to figure out this 27-key Dvorak system! < 1283268839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w00t < 1283268844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why god why! < 1283268854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Seriously; it uses these keys: http://colorforth.com/keys.html as Dvorak) < 1283268864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently the entire right is digits and ?, the left is a bunch of punctuation, z and j < 1283268872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have ".com" and "a"; for what, I know not < 1283268873 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Chuck Moore is a GOD. < 1283268889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mount a formatted floppy. Contents irrelevant." How, you fucker?! < 1283268912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh goody, left alt changes it into actual letters mode. < 1283268941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"2?" WHY DO YOU NOT RECOGNISE 2 < 1283268971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, dup does something. < 1283268989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, I loaded the editor and QEMU crashed. < 1283268991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is trippy. < 1283269006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qemu: fatal: Trying to execute code outside RAM or ROM at 0x83672a33 < 1283269040 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a feature < 1283269123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mount?" WHY ISN'T THAT THE WORD TO MOUNT WHY WHY WHY < 1283269132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hell let's just assume it's mounted < 1283269133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :save! < 1283269148 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qemu's monitor (ctrl-alt-2 or some-such) can swap floppies. < 1283269158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YAY SAVE DOES SOMETHING < 1283269161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I THINK < 1283269174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NAMELY APPARENTLY CRASH THE SYSTEM < 1283269175 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or "qemu -stdio", which is more convenient; then you can use the original terminal to fiddle with the monitor.) < 1283269234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I get to figure out the editor < 1283269253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In case of difficulty" --colorForth website < 1283269281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[The qwerty word 'save ' is an alias for the colorForth word (terminal space).]] < 1283269281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1283269323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "oadf". < 1283269367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://colorforth.com/user.htm Thank god, it has a manual < 1283269368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of < 1283269386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You cannot backspace characters (they've already been packed)." < 1283269389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate you. < 1283269415 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, colorForth is even more... Moorey than I thought. Thank you alise for guinea-pigging it. < 1283269446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's a window where you press keys and the wrong keys come out, and then you press space and it says "?". < 1283269451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes, it crashes. < 1283269496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this thing can't run without a proper floppy with it on. < 1283269560 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : meanwhile, esr is trying to prove to me over email that it's legal in the UK and US to relicense GPL code as BSD without permission from its author < 1283269561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type 'hex '. < 1283269561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Displays 7 hexagons. Center one has color at top of screen (rgb: 888). One to left has less red, to right more red. To upper left less green, to lower right more. To lower left less blue, to upper right more. < 1283269567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS THE FIRST THING I UNDERSTAND ABOUT COLORFORTH < 1283269574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1283269577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW DO I EXIT THE EDITOR < 1283269614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1283269617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lied about hex < 1283269620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just says "hex?" < 1283269640 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha woah < 1283269648 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... esr has taken up 18th-century haberdashery, I take it? < 1283269685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chuck moore is the most idiotic visionary ever < 1283269690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiotic, genius visionary < 1283269695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he hates my guts < 1283269740 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Is this because I mentioned it last night...? < 1283269749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just the whole Forthy kick. < 1283269763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out I'm a machine of Big Forth, not a Chuckist. < 1283269770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, at least, Medium-Sized Forth. < 1283269834 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I can do Forth at all at this point. :/ < 1283269850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Aww. < 1283269854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's no fun unless it's on the metal, anyway. < 1283269863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why I'm so, so tempted to make Alise's Wonderful Forth OS Yay. < 1283269909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:41:17 .za is to South Africa as .ch is to Switzerland. < 1283269909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:41:26 In that it's not actually short for any /official/ name. < 1283269913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very incorrect, past-Gregor! < 1283269944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Confœderatio Helvetica" is used as the neutral form of the name "[the] Swiss Confederation", due to its multilingualness! < 1283269961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because nobody speaks Latin, so it's equally horrible for everyone. < 1283270107 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl29-2-0-cust326.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283270117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Actually what I'm really irritated at now is just how bloated OSes are. < 1283270142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oberon fits a full, self-compiling, graphical environment with a web browser on a floppy. Forth could probably fit quite a bit more. < 1283270171 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1283270346 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, South Africa was once known as "Zuid-Afrika". < 1283270385 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just stopped being the official name when they acknowledged that Afrikaans had ceased to be mutually intelligible with Dutch. < 1283270494 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the CCTLDs come from ISO country codes. When these were set, it was still "Zuid-Afrika", rather than "Suid-Afrika". < 1283270528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You said that at the time. < 1283270532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in less detail. < 1283270537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you didn't mention the ISO connection. < 1283270547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So you thought it was just a weird archaicism.) < 1283270552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was in March. < 1283270563 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes. Time ago. < 1283270586 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should head out
< 1283270760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time ago < 1283270764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a galaxy away < 1283271139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17:57:45 ''=~('('.'?'.'{'.('`'|'%').('['^'-').('`'|'!').('`'|',').'"'.('`'^'%').('{'^'"').('`'^'%').('{'^'[').('`'^'$').('{'^')').('`'^'/').('{'^'+').('{'^'(').'"'.'}'.')') < 1283271140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1283271202 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What lang? < 1283271337 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie come back here, please < 1283271352 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka, where did he go? < 1283271355 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1283271367 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just not on when fizzie is talking < 1283271368 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason < 1283271744 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was eatinging. < 1283271893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: JForth < 1283271894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh the pain < 1283271899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, J+Forth. < 1283271908 0 :relet!~thomas@c905DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1283271916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's low-level, stack based, and all single characters! Wait, that's FALSE. < 1283272385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:30:34 fax: maybe you shouldn't have mentioned your win by paradox in philosophy? bah, humbug :) don't have that < 1283272385 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: maybe i should put lisp-poetry in fnord furniture too much or you'll crack) has in ( mz)scheme? < 1283272391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it does have some philosophical issues... < 1283272659 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-10-29.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283272860 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax was here? < 1283273235 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1283273394 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1283273554 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1283273817 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@k-115.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1283274184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: in march < 1283274199 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh. < 1283274216 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S?he was in #epigram a while ago, but not any more. < 1283274244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it" < 1283274339 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(S?he)|It, then. < 1283274347 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, (It) < 1283274349 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J+Forth? < 1283274396 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :J&Forth? < 1283274439 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weh, fax was here? Or are you looking at really old logs, alise? < 1283274448 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, really old logs. < 1283274457 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weh. < 1283274459 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When did fax storm off, again? < 1283274485 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :April/May-ish I think. < 1283274517 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, if I were to believe what was just said < 1283274524 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did (s?he)|(it) ever return after blockening. < 1283274528 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/./?/ < 1283274637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n < 1283274638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1283274640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she was banned < 1283274642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she is band < 1283274644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :banned < 1283274648 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1283274650 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283274668 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought oerjan unbanned (h(im)|(er))|(it)? < 1283274917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1283275121 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1283275154 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, is this the time s?he was banned for flooding the channel with "FUCK YOU"? < 1283275348 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283275403 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Watch the steam coming off my head. < 1283275403 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: many people prefer to avoid it whenever possible. " formal language", maybe. < 1283275413 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. Maybe. < 1283275563 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general, if there's steam coming off someone, I'd probably prefer to avoid it too. < 1283275564 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-50-208.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1283275570 0 :roblo!~roblo@83.159.67.232 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283275581 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1283275651 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you speak fr? < 1283275687 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PUTAIN DE MERDE YA QUELQUN QUI VA REPONDRE!!! < 1283275723 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya meme pas un bot!!! < 1283275752 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jai trouv� ce chan sur wikipedia < 1283275776 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parle not Frenche. < 1283275814 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1283275828 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are you < 1283275853 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you help me for brainfuck < 1283275883 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I look for an interpreter in real time < 1283275906 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the input < 1283275914 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an interactive one? < 1283275931 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1283275963 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for he can look my keybord < 1283275971 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everytime < 1283275981 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://people.fishpool.fi/~setok/proj/tclbf/ < like this? < 1283276010 0 :augur!~augur@208-58-6-161.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283276057 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1283276093 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not exactely < 1283276096 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you want , to wait until keypress or what? < 1283276141 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, the BBC made a radio serial of Foundation. < 1283276159 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want he knows when I press a key < 1283276181 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Asimov's, or something else? It's the sort of generic word I expect others have used too. < 1283276201 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, Asimov's is the only one I would use unqualified. < 1283276276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roblo: so unbuffered? < 1283276281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take a c interp < 1283276283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put termios code in < 1283276283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :done < 1283276287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION helpful
< 1283276311 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alise a bit unportable, too. < 1283276433 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok thanks bye < 1283276435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall offhand an unbuffered sort of implementation, but possibly environments where line-buffering isn't so prevalent might have some. < 1283276458 0 :roblo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1283276488 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1283276501 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's relet? < 1283276514 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not me. < 1283276540 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, okay < 1283277206 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@129.241.210.68 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283277305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:11:08 I thought oerjan unbanned (h(im)|(er))|(it)? < 1283277305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:15:17 no < 1283277307 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1283277320 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, told you so. < 1283277346 0 :sftp_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283277572 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who < 1283277580 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax < 1283277586 0 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.35.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283277594 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is it? < 1283277614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka soupdragon < 1283277681 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AKA total nutcase < 1283277733 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(h(im)|(er))|(it) makes no sense anyway; | binds less tight than concatenation, so (assuming that the beginning and end are implicitly tied) that matches "him", "er" or "it", with lots of unnecessary grouped submatches. (At least in common regex syntaxes.) < 1283277796 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just say h(im|er)|it, or h(?:im|er)|it if you want to use the common non-capturing group thing. < 1283277851 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very well. < 1283277854 0 :cal153!~cal@70.36.237.178 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283277865 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 153rd cal! < 1283277893 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 152nd was better < 1283278199 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1283279249 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1283279738 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you know how you said that there was a Coq proof of Gödel's first incompleteness theorem? < 1283279860 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where is it? < 1283280007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: You can only prove it exists if it doesn't < 1283280543 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1283281157 0 :madbrain2!~madbrain@gric-3728-salam.ift.ulaval.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1283281178 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the second mad brain! < 1283281377 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the Hoover'th Phantom. < 1283281477 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm the only phantom hoover. < 1283281501 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly, don't you know about hoover metaphysics? < 1283281554 0 :madbrain2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like pigeon hole problem :D < 1283281730 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283282715 0 :derdon!~quassel@p5B3E4E05.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283283458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise, you know how you said that there was a Coq proof of Gödel's first incompleteness theorem? < 1283283461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll find it < 1283283478 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, Forth is only really fun when it's on the bare metal (or a reasonable approximation thereof). And if I'm going to code for that environment, I might as well code in assembly, most of the time. < 1283283479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://r6.ca/Goedel/goedel1.html < 1283283487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But assembly is crap. < 1283283489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth is wonderful. < 1283283504 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, assembly is tolerable enough. < 1283283506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A computer verified proof of Gödel’s incompleteness theorem is not new. In 1986 Shankar created a proof of the incompleteness of Z2, hereditarily finite set theory, in the Boyer-Moore theorem prover. My work is the first computer verified proof of the essential incompleteness of arithmetic. Harrison recently completed a proof in HOL Light of the essential incompleteness of Σ1-complete theories, but has not shown that any particular theory is Σ1-comple < 1283283506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :te. His work will be included in the next release of HOL Light. < 1283283563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Indeed, his work could even print out the unprovable statement, but it is huge (and would require a slight movement from Prop to Set). < 1283283570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's pointless. < 1283283571 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, depends on the arch, I suppose. 6502 > Z80 > Forth > 68000, maybe. < 1283283587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Duuude, no way. < 1283283591 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I don't know about Z80. Never got into it much. < 1283283595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't turn 6502 into the perfect language. < 1283283605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's at the lowest level and stays there. < 1283283618 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't *want* to turn 6502 into the perfect language. You want to write mad raster effects in it :) < 1283283664 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@m-243.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1283283710 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the important thing is that I know Coq, and I don't know the Boyer-Moore theorem prover. < 1283283726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was merely quoting from the page. < 1283283774 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if I want a language to turn into the perfect language, give me Scheme! And not on bare metal, preferably! :) (I'm not entirely serious about any of this. I may yet pick up Forth in seriousness some day.) < 1283283816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Scheme is so limited in that respect compared to Forth, though! And Scheme code is so big. < 1283283822 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm. Schorth? < 1283283826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, Scheme relies on other systems below it, a runtime etc. < 1283283831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forth is entirely self-reliant. < 1283283834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like an adult's language! < 1283283838 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I stop Emacs from creating those irritating #backups# when I tell it to quit without saving a file? < 1283283863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://amitp.blogspot.com/2007/03/emacs-move-autosave-and-backup-files.html < 1283283870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copy the code for GNU Emacs into your .emacs < 1283283875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this will also move foo~ files elsewhere < 1283283883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and #foo# will still exist, but moved out of the way < 1283283897 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't want #foo# at all! < 1283283904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it just goes into /tmp, dude < 1283283909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're useful for recovering files you lose < 1283283910 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not for me. < 1283283917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ... < 1283283919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE CODE makes them do that < 1283283923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Copy the code from that blog post. < 1283283924 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah.. < 1283283927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they will go into /tmp. < 1283283940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, the author of that proof, Russell O'Connor, has a great blog: http://r6.ca/blog/ < 1283283944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very interesting posts. < 1283283960 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : So that's pointless. <-- wait, why? It would be kind of fun to have a laser etch it into a rock face somewhere in the Canadian shield, so that when the cockroaches eventually develop sophisticated mathematics... < 1283283983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Because it's so big, it would never finish printing. < 1283284011 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah. Oh right, Goedel encoding uses powers.\ < 1283284064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ColorForth makes me weep. < 1283284084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, RetroForth's homepage is hosted on TUNES. < 1283284089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like our logs! Buddies! < 1283284099 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the subject of Emacs autobackups, I send them to a different directory < 1283284103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They share our log URLs! < 1283284106 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: colorForth comes from a guy who proposed a one-handed, five-switch input device, iirc. < 1283284106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but with retro instead, ofc) < 1283284119 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reason is to recover from an accidental rm * < 1283284119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, the blog post I linked has code for GNU Emacs and XEmacs to do that < 1283284130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: actually, /those/ are a good idea < 1283284137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you generally want more than five switches < 1283284142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(multiple directions of pushing for each finger) < 1283284148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keyboards are an ergonomic disaster, we're just used to them. < 1283284164 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it depends on what you're using them for, really < 1283284164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, colorForth is awesome, I just can't use it. < 1283284174 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, but 5 is enough for 32 signals, which is, hell, MORE THAN YOU NEED (seems to be the Moorian logic.) < 1283284183 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cording keyers are awesome. < 1283284192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Moore did something horrible to cpressey. < 1283284200 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, no, I quite like him. < 1283284201 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: *chording? < 1283284202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: with two hands you can actually have no chording < 1283284205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes. < 1283284207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you have five buttons per hand < 1283284212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flick up, down, left, right, and press down < 1283284222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a device which does this, very expensive but very popular with everyone who uses it < 1283284226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fits on to your chair, your hand nests in it < 1283284226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yeah, but with one hand you can type with one hand. < 1283284228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has a built-in mouse too < 1283284259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Someone's probably marketed a one-hand keyboard directly: "the Masturboard!" < 1283284261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, yeah: traditional keyboards are an absolute ergonomic *nightmare*. < 1283284274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://s3.retroforth.org/index.html Hey look, it's the site for classic RetroForth. < 1283284278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's more like it. < 1283284289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coming about soly because of the needs for traditional typewriters. < 1283284294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much like QWERTY. < 1283284295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1283284313 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Running on a virtual machine..." sigh. < 1283284335 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sandbox < 1283284364 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats his Windows manager
< 1283284367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes, well, it's closer to real Forth than gforth. < 1283284377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since with gforth @ and ! are extremely limited, obviously. < 1283284382 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283284404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, fun slightly-insane colorForth fan: http://colorforthray.info/ < 1283284411 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283284412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gene Ray, colorForth Ray... < 1283284451 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :colorForth: the official language of eye strain. < 1283284481 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: colorForth: the official language of optometrists < 1283284481 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other problem: < 1283284507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised something... I bet LoseThos works in QEMU. < 1283284509 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a good reason to learn & use Forth *instead of* creating my own vaguely Forth-esque language and using that. < 1283284511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:) < 1283284523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well, uh, the first step to using Forth is quite often "implement Forth". < 1283284541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283284549 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, that would be both my problem and my solution. < 1283284572 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283284598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You know that colorForth does not actually require poor color choices, right? < 1283284609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ehird@dinky losethos]$ qemu-system-x86_64 -cdrom LTCD.ISO < 1283284610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[boot crash boot crash boot crash boot crash] < 1283284611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it hates me. < 1283284620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It merely requires *some* visual distinction. Underlining, italics, strobe-lighting, etc. < 1283284634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, what insane thing does LoseThos do... < 1283284646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, -vga std doesn't help. < 1283284648 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, if I want my colorForth code to be understandable by others -- aren't the default colors the standard convention for interchange? < 1283284648 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just two fonts. < 1283284662 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's called "syntax highlighting". < 1283284667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Pretty much < 1283284670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's also dependent on the OS < 1283284673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And who the hell would use the OS? < 1283284726 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So what you're saying is that the VERY NAME OF THE LANGUAGE IS A LIE. < 1283284741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1283284748 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"visualDistinctionForth" < 1283284767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's talk about something funner. < 1283284776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone wanna help me figure out why LoseThos doesn't work in QEMU? < 1283284787 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Wait, what? This is hilarious. But OK, I have to go to a meeting now anyway... < 1283284789 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1283284795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Funner, not funnier. :P < 1283284800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-m megs set virtual RAM size to megs MB [default=128] < 1283284801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha! < 1283284803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly it needs 4 gigs. < 1283284829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-m 2048 makes it boot more, but now it won't do anything. < 1283284848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, LoseThos? Helloooo? < 1283284904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[The name, "LoseThos", was inspired by the scene in the movie, Platoon, where < 1283284904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elias says to Chris, "S**tcan this and this...", referring to dorky standard < 1283284904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :issue equipment.]] < 1283284909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sense making of this: none. < 1283284956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG IT'S BOOTING < 1283284960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qemu-system-x86_64 -m 512 -cdrom LTCD.ISO < 1283284960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw < 1283284974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ais523: I have LoseThos running in a window right now. < 1283284979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, the titles really do scroll constantly. < 1283284981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of every window. < 1283285015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holy shit. < 1283285018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So many things are blinking and scrolling. < 1283285024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a headache. < 1283285063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the mouse cursor meant to be this slow? Who knows? < 1283285091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1283285095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses #include to run files from the shell < 1283285130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: stop taking drugs < 1283285183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i'm not < 1283285185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm taking LOSETHOS < 1283285193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is EVEN BETTER < 1283285230 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o mai < 1283285244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's truly beautiful < 1283285252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mocked it from a distance < 1283285252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but here < 1283285253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my < 1283285267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like being touched by jesus < 1283285332 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been touched by Jesus lately. < 1283285338 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remind me what it's like. < 1283285344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like using LoseThos < 1283285378 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The New Testament could be made much more entertaining. < 1283285420 0 :madbrain2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs more whores < 1283285446 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's Magdalene? < 1283285510 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MISUSING BIBLICAL NAMES < 1283285557 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember what LoseThos is < 1283285562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I think i knew once < 1283285565 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I < 1283285576 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be what you get when you take the OS out of an OS. < 1283285584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the crazy 640x480x4 64-bit operating system < 1283285601 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an...unusual juxtaposition < 1283285606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the loony author who spammed bizarre Christian stuff on reddit < 1283285610 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, 640x480x4? < 1283285612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like how he talked to god using his random-word outputter < 1283285613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stuff < 1283285613 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I am used to 640x480x4, it's what I grew up in < 1283285615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes, 16 colours < 1283285616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*with < 1283285626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's well-known for being laughed at. < 1283285627 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, screen things. < 1283285631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And my GOD it FLASHES. < 1283285636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every window name scrolls across the itle bar, constantly. < 1283285640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MENU" flashes, constantly. < 1283285645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every cursor in every window flashes constantly. < 1283285649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minimised windows appear to flash constantly. < 1283285657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woo, I crashed it. < 1283285658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it it isn't just using alternate-frame dithering to get more colors? < 1283285667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it DOESN'T get more colours < 1283285670 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy australian mailman reminders day! < 1283285670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no, it isn't < 1283285673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's legitimately flashing < 1283285678 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My god, we HAVE to port that battleships game to it! < 1283285685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ? < 1283285704 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, don't you remember? < 1283285705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right now i'm just trying to get it to install, which is difficult as it wants a partition < 1283285715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, here we go < 1283285719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the auto-partitioner appears to be working < 1283285721 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That 300K C++ file which ostensibly implemented Battleships? < 1283285728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it creates 3 identical losethos partitioners, for some bizarre reason < 1283285731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh yes, that thing < 1283285733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*partitions < 1283285742 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We MUST PORT IT. < 1283285746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... you've done that part... display the next part of the installer please now losethos < 1283285748 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what did it /actually/ implement? < 1283285755 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, how much of that 300K was encoded binary? < 1283285764 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, some weird game that intersected somewhat with Battleships. < 1283285788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, there's an XcolorForth, for X11 < 1283285791 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It implemented all games of Battleships in which Player 1 wins and no illegal moves are attempted. < 1283285807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if player 1 lost? < 1283285818 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still said they won. < 1283285852 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I compiled it, I felt god himself stare upon me. < 1283285875 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And playing it is also like being touched by Jesus. < 1283285885 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if we play it on LoseThos.... < 1283285984 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I SHALL BE AS UNTO A GOD MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA < 1283286080 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, not only was that Battleships game only ostensibly Battleships, it was only ostensibly C++. < 1283286105 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is literally entirely C. < 1283286141 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And C without arrays, at that. < 1283286148 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or loops. Or conditionals. < 1283286203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, LoseThos is actually formatting. < 1283286216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone want to golf a TCP/IP stack? < 1283286228 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am going to install this and try to compile that game. < 1283286264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no. < 1283286266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It failed. < 1283286273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It has a VMWare install mode that should work with VMWare. < 1283286277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With QEMU, pain. < 1283286288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's it, I'm going to partition with fdisk < 1283286351 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it has no networking! < 1283286380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And? < 1283286395 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You won't be able to report back on your experiences! < 1283286408 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be so Lovecraftian! < 1283286417 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style lovecraft < 1283286418 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings) < 1283286423 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, comment. < 1283286424 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: published july 1922 in home brew vol. 1, no. 5, p. fnord. < 1283286427 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, comment. < 1283286428 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: lake called me later to say that the fairly round moon was " about a foot square, which must not be fancied that inspector legrasse had the least interest in fnord charlatanry, fnord, and for this honor kalos and musides. from lydia to fnord the speaker. < 1283286446 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lovecraft does not fungot well. < 1283286447 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: when fnord the events of that horrible good friday of the previous year. < 1283286464 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or should that be "fungot does not Lovecraft well". < 1283286464 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: written sep 1922 i lived a very normal life of work and recreation. there < 1283286576 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bloody non-kvm computer... < 1283286584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES < 1283286586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT IS INSTALLING!!!!! < 1283286591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I don't have kvm either. < 1283286592 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holy crap, this guy is 40. < 1283286597 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O.o < 1283286598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And crazy. < 1283286605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He thinks he talks to God with his program that outputs random words. < 1283286613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Do you want to know how to install it with QEMU? < 1283286615 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crazy, or INSPIRED. < 1283286618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can give you complete instructions. < 1283286625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's not easy if you don't know how.) < 1283286630 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I assume it requires 64-bit virtualisation in software. < 1283286637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just install QEMU. < 1283286641 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the part of qemu. < 1283286647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; it's fast enough. < 1283286651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's more than that. < 1283286656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not the installation process. < 1283286661 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O god < 1283286689 0 :madbrain2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1283286726 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, his voice is weird. < 1283286736 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He sounds like he's about to cry. < 1283286778 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find the ".CPZ" extension foreboding... < 1283286785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's his mega-super C-alike. < 1283286799 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, double god. < 1283286815 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's us, but without the nice language. < 1283286824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or good OS design. < 1283286825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or anything. < 1283286830 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEVER FORGET THIS < 1283286865 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what if you want your programs to screw around with the contents of 0x0? Inferior OSes lack this feature! < 1283286932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/1129702.txt?key=q8chaljltwsiclmbchw3cq < 1283286938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: How to install and run LoseThos using QEMU. < 1283286960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mouse is so slow it isn't funny. < 1283286989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void *i = NULL;while(*i++=*NULL); < 1283286998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Aaaargh < 1283287012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Pah, colorForth can do that! < 1283287014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1234 0 ! < 1283287068 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not an inferior OS! < 1283287078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :InferiOS < 1283287086 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes! < 1283287098 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Memory protection is for those who need malloc. < 1283287175 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283287201 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283287207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure LoseThos has malloc. < 1283287214 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a single heap, mind. < 1283287258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably MemAlloc or something. < 1283287282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised the guy actually managed to code something this, you know, "polished". < 1283287288 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, look, I ended up in the debugger. < 1283287296 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the best debugger ever. < 1283287297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't randomly crash or anything, it has a ton of formatted debugging output, it has an automatic installer... < 1283287302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Did you follow my instructions? < 1283287305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is this post-install? < 1283287311 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Installing. < 1283287314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You can adjust the mouse movement rate" YES PLEASE < 1283287319 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I followed them, as far as I know. < 1283287320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Follow my instructions and don't do anything else, and it'll work fine. < 1283287324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh. < 1283287325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try again. < 1283287331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The HD selection part is a bit difficult. Pay attention there. < 1283287336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ran into problems with it. < 1283287345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES I GOT RID OF WORDSTAT < 1283287348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worst completion system ever < 1283287367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Adjust these to set mouse move scale" yes plz ^_^ < 1283287485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: this is the most amazing thing ever < 1283287493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like i finally understand life < 1283287499 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be, if it would install. < 1283287508 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidently only the worthy may do so. < 1283287517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: did you do my fdisk stuff properly? < 1283287535 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did you have to type the 'n'? < 1283287546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1283287549 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was there a y/n prompt? < 1283287550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To create a new partition. < 1283287554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the command do. < 1283287555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to. < 1283287574 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1283287599 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'n': You must set cylinders. < 1283287599 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do this from the extra functions menu. < 1283287621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are using Linux, right? < 1283287628 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1283287635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK, wait. < 1283287644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do the dd thing again, then run fdisk hd and tell me what it outputs. < 1283287651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My fdisk might be different to yours. < 1283287679 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Device contains neither a valid DOS partition table, nor Sun, SGI or OSF disklabel < 1283287679 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Building a new DOS disklabel with disk identifier 0xc009eb3c. < 1283287679 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Changes will remain in memory only, until you decide to write them. < 1283287679 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After that, of course, the previous content won't be recoverable. < 1283287679 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warning: invalid flag 0x0000 of partition table 4 will be corrected by w(rite) < 1283287679 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You must set cylinders. < 1283287681 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do this from the extra functions menu. < 1283287684 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WARNING: DOS-compatible mode is deprecated. It's strongly recommended to < 1283287686 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : switch off the mode (command 'c') and change display units to < 1283287688 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : sectors (command 'u'). < 1283287689 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Command (m for help): < 1283287692 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. I should really have pastebinned that. < 1283287698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's ok, that's absolutely fine. < 1283287702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just "n". < 1283287706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, and then enter. < 1283287717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then press enter until you're back at the Command prompt. < 1283287717 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, then it complains about cylinders. < 1283287722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Howso? < 1283287724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it say? < 1283287744 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying again with a fresh blankness. < 1283287757 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You must set cylinders. < 1283287757 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do this from the extra functions menu. < 1283287768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, press "c". < 1283287770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then try n again. < 1283287834 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS Compatibility flag is not set < 1283287840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does n work? < 1283287881 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Np. < 1283287884 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/p/o/ < 1283287899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1283287905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: How about I give you my fdisk binary? :P < 1283287912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're on 64-bit, yes? < 1283287914 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1283287931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uploading. < 1283287936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LoseThos is well worth it, btw. < 1283287940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://filebin.ca/ztskmb/fdisk < 1283287954 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, fdisk -v gives fdisk (util-linux-ng 2.17.2) < 1283287983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fdisk (util-linux-ng 2.18) < 1283287987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine's less sucky. Ha. < 1283287991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The binary should work. < 1283288045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wowww using this thing is such a crapshoot. < 1283288084 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it requires me to press either e or p. < 1283288088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1283288090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it say? < 1283288166 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Command action < 1283288167 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : e extended < 1283288167 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : p primary partition (1-4) < 1283288170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p < 1283288173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot that in my guide. < 1283288203 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one, then? < 1283288205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/1129751.txt?key=sia4cjdcp4hkckxdpnaa Guide with p in it. < 1283288206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: p < 1283288207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I Said < 1283288208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*said < 1283288226 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I thought that was :p. < 1283288243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, apparently I have multiple accounts now. < 1283288246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did I do... < 1283288256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it works! < 1283288285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is physically painful to use. < 1283288331 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pain is but a prelude to enlightenment. < 1283288484 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, he doesn't like non-monospaced fonts. < 1283288494 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklo would like him. < 1283288578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklo is insane but in a nice way < 1283288580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this guy is just insane. < 1283288677 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jeez, one meeting and the scrollback size doubles. < 1283288691 0 :yorick!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1283288724 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, where's the talking to god stuff? < 1283288739 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I was doing something vaguely productive before you mentioned this. < 1283288745 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope you're happy. < 1283288765 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"* 64-bit compiler/assembler. Nothing is "interpreted."" < 1283288777 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...so how does the shell...? < 1283288815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compiles it. < 1283288819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like SBCL, only crazy. < 1283288823 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O.o < 1283288828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/user/losethos < 1283288832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno where the God program is < 1283288832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw what < 1283288835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he might have got banned < 1283288837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAJOR BUMMER < 1283288876 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18636 ← ahahaha. < 1283288915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ld: i386 architecture of input file `color.o' is incompatible with i386:x86-64 output < 1283288917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i386:x86-64 < 1283288920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worst binary format EVER < 1283288947 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But some of his insanity touches slightly on our insanity... < 1283288995 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like everything running in ring 0, and the JITing, and the 64-bitness. < 1283289006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah -- I bet he likes food, and breathing too. < 1283289021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't mean those things are bad. He woefully misapplies all the things you listed. < 1283289024 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283289032 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1283289032 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, so, the shell is this CPZ language, and what you enter is compiled? < 1283289039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes. < 1283289045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Forth, only insane. < 1283289047 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the dark side of insane computing. < 1283289051 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonderfully insane. < 1283289052 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, indeed, SBCL. < 1283289057 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, no, that's us. < 1283289085 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, insane but in a non-wonderful fashion. < 1283289113 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, someone who intentionally designs a GUI with constant blinking. < 1283289128 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably has his ocular nerves wired up in a special way. < 1283289147 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds pretty wonderful to me, for some value of wonderful. < 1283289158 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My god, his OSDev stuff is fun. < 1283289256 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to add a "crackpot" tag to my site and put the LoseThos and Laws of Form links under it. < 1283289311 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Laws of Form < 1283289313 0 :yorick!yorick@2001:470:8:257::2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283289314 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1283289334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283289340 0 :yorick!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest4213 < 1283289354 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, you know. Laws of Form. < 1283289363 0 :Guest4213!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1283289364 0 :Guest4213!yorick@unaffiliated/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1283289366 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O god, alise has been taken by LoseThos. < 1283289390 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.124.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1283289393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOLY SHIT < 1283289400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One system crash just OBLITERATED my /usr/share/man/man3. < 1283289402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not there any more. < 1283289410 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 is stdlib? < 1283289414 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch. < 1283289414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1283289421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/lost+found is now very well-populated. < 1283289422 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How the hell did that happen? < 1283289424 0 :Guest4213!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :yorick < 1283289436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; this program must have a destroy_all_files() function somewhere! < 1283289441 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Installing a man package when crash came? < 1283289441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I ran it as root.) < 1283289443 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am LoseThos. Fear me! I shall eat your stdlib manpages. < 1283289447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1283289450 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWAHAHAH < 1283289456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh dear God. < 1283289480 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, Laws of Form looks completely mad. < 1283289487 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yet Wikipedia does not say this. < 1283289494 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Effing NPOV. < 1283289528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he claims to have proved several things < 1283289531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as 4ct, riemann < 1283289537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also that the computer proof of 4ct is wrong < 1283289538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's, uh < 1283289539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a kook. < 1283289549 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maths kooks are the worst. < 1283289579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... oh dear; something appears to have forgotten that I disabled that god damn PC speaker. < 1283289592 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I want to categorize it and LoseThose under "kook", except to add a "kook" tag to my site, I should really have at least one "kook" project of my own. Maybe N'DCNC. < 1283289605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*LoseThos :P < 1283289607 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, N'DCNC? < 1283289607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N'DCNC? < 1283289638 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Twas my entry for the Essies one year, when that contest was still a-running. < 1283289675 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The National Do Call, Nocturnally Call registry. < 1283289676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 18 Aug 10 11:49 I465196.RCN -> CMS_get0_type.3.gz < 1283289678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha... < 1283289692 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283289694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man displays these pages. < 1283289699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really creepy. < 1283289776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The power of this one program, however, suggests something awesome. < 1283289782 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's in them? < 1283289785 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What program is this? < 1283289795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We could make a hosted-in-Linux bootloader, like LOADLIN in the days of yore (DOS program that booted Linux). < 1283289800 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this "man" in LoseThos? < 1283289805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The program is a random program that, when ran as root, crashed my system. < 1283289806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: No. < 1283289809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is my local man. < 1283289820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It displays the files in /lost+found, which once were in /usr/share/man/man3. < 1283289824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now they have lost their dignity and filenames. < 1283289831 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which random program? < 1283289846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XcolorForth; it's meant to run colorForth from Linux. < 1283289854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it really hates 64-bit machines. < 1283289874 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283289924 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude. < 1283289932 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wait, n/m. < 1283289948 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, the WP article on the Laws of Form seems to be biased crap. < 1283289974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: wat < 1283289976 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ostensibly a work of formal mathematics and philosophy, LoF became something of a cult classic, praised in the Whole Earth Catalog. Those who agree point to LoF as embodying an enigmatic "mathematics of consciousness," its algebraic symbolism capturing an (perhaps even the) implicit root of cognition: the ability to distinguish. LoF argues that the pa (primary algebra) reveals striking connections among log < 1283289977 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic, Boolean algebra, and arithmetic, and the philosophy of language and mind." < 1283290024 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Was going to say some crap about writing my own OS in Forth. Really, just crap though. < 1283290032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: No, no, do say. < 1283290063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if a working TCP/IP stack can be stuffed into less than a page of Forth. I bet yes. < 1283290075 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283290113 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, cpressey, can one of you please look at WP's article on LoF and tell me if it's completely nuts. < 1283290142 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 Write own Forthoid in Forth 2 Write kernel in Forthoid 3 Write VM for Forthoid in Forthoid to support virtualization? < 1283290145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's nuts, but nobody intelligent cares enough to critique it, so you can't really make it more neutral without just cutting out parts of the article, which the fans will counter as bias. < 1283290152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: lawl < 1283290160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You do realise 90% of writing Forth is extending it to become a Forthoid? < 1283290171 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I've seen a TCP/IP stack in a few screens of colorForth... somewhere. < 1283290181 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, of course. You do remember I said "crap"? < 1283290189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, words are powerful; defining one can be defining a whole new language feature. And with their ability to read the input stream and whatnot, they can literally be that. < 1283290193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: True :P < 1283290229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My plan would basically be: 1. Write a Forth base in assembly. 2. Write the rest of the Forth in Forth. 3. Write drivers. 4. Write an interface. < 1283290241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which isn't the most exciting plan, but it'd definitely be fun. < 1283290259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MenuetOS can go suck my Forth. < 1283290264 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283290269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually, I'm incredibly envious of the MenuetOS author. Takes skill.) < 1283290281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could argue that it's a better OS than Linux! < 1283290322 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re hosted-on-Linux loaders, there's the kexec infrastructure that can do it with at least semblance of cleanliness; I think I've seen at least some experiments on loading something else than a regular Linux kernel with it. < 1283290361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both 32 and 64-bit support, written entirely in assembly, full WIMP GUI with alpha transparency (e.g. on the title bars), USB support, control panels, even window morphing effects (http://www.menuetos.net/086c.png), DVD/MP3 players, FASM, Quake, Doom, digital TV support somehow, a web browser... < 1283290368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Entirely in assembly! < 1283290387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, and it fits on a floppy. < 1283290421 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course kexec trickery might not lead to the evaporation of your stdlib manpages, so there's that downside to consider.) < 1283290487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I was thinking the more awesome way: make the kernel commit suicide (i.e. disable multitasking so you get full control), load your OS into where the kernel was (or, really, wherever it has to start), jump there. < 1283290493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly zero out the kernel if you have to. < 1283290510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fun bit there, of course, is making the kernel commit suicide. < 1283290588 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how you get to supervisor mode from userland code without doing something very nonstandard. < 1283290613 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course if you're in it for the awesome, it's a different matter. < 1283290639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You're root, so you can crash the system, right? < 1283290642 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1283290644 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why are you goading the kernel into suicide? < 1283290647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can basically do whatever the fuck you want to memory. < 1283290650 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1283290656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that was to fizzie < 1283290658 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if the kernel takes you down with it? < 1283290662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: So you can stop it switching out your task. < 1283290669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other OSes kind of like to be the only guy in town. < 1283290672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, that's the fun part. < 1283290684 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screw with its innards? < 1283290692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOADLIN had it easy, since there was no real DOS kernel; it was basically a big library. < 1283290698 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is getting near that CoreWars fanfic I want written. < 1283290761 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think a uid 0 process is still supposed to be able to switch processor protection levels. I'm sure you *can*, it just sounds very brittle, maybe involving the direct-physical-memory device nodes. (are those even still there and unfiltered?) < 1283290769 0 :Wamanuz2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283290770 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that kexec is explicitly designed for handing control over. (How boring!) < 1283290784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: CoreWars slash! < 1283290788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: But it's so UNGENERAL. < 1283290789 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a uid 0 process can fiddle with the kernel's memory, can't it? < 1283290793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I load LoseThos from it? < 1283290807 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283290830 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like Inception, but with kernels. < 1283290842 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not ungeneral; just write a bit of code that looks kernely enough that kexec can jump into it; it will start in kernel-mode with full access to anything. < 1283290869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, the kernelly enough bit is the issue! < 1283290876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, I know! < 1283290880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could make it inject a DRIVER. < 1283290883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those run in the KERNEL, see. < 1283290888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can see where I'm going with this. < 1283290898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kernel-raping drivers! < 1283290910 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but why! I no get it. < 1283290946 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The kernelly-enough wrapper needs to be a few hundred bytes, it can then load your LoseThos just fine. < 1283290959 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's kexec-loader, I think it can boot any multiboot-standard-compliant image with kexec. < 1283290967 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283290976 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But we want the kernel to commit suicide! < 1283291001 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants to inject code into /dev/kmem
< 1283291006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: We want to load ARBITRARY CODE without succumbing to the kernel's EVIL KEXEC DEMANDS. < 1283291009 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I can see it's more about cruelty than pragmatism with you! < 1283291011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MULTIBOOT? FUCK MULTIBOOT < 1283291016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should be able to LOAD bootloaders from this < 1283291022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should just execute RAW code < 1283291046 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So can we poke the kernel through kmem or not? < 1283291058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could just write memory directly, Phantom_Hoover. < 1283291086 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I though this was going to be something like "sudo depose-kernel"! < 1283291088 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you can't. UID-0 processes aren't exempt from memory access protections. < 1283291106 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: We want to load ARBITRARY CODE without succumbing to the kernel's EVIL KEXEC DEMANDS. <-- what demands? < 1283291113 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they added some dev-kmem filters that are possibly the default now. < 1283291132 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, is mem the physical memory? < 1283291134 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There's the loading address, and maybe some metadata in the image. < 1283291143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: DEMANDS < 1283291161 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't think a uid 0 process is still supposed to be able to switch processor protection levels. I'm sure you *can*, it just sounds very brittle, maybe involving the direct-physical-memory device nodes. (are those even still there and unfiltered?) <-- they are there, but: /dev/kmem is off by default, /dev/mem is filtered to pci config space and bios stuff by default iirc < 1283291182 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you could just modprobe a module that let you do it < 1283291195 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, this is also an interesting idea. < 1283291199 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A suicidal driver is perhaps an appropriate method, yes. < 1283291223 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I still fail to see what is wrong with kexec. The docs says it could load something else than linux if you wanted < 1283291243 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, it's so BORING < 1283291246 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or: find a module with an exploitable bug. It's like jailbreaking your own computer! < 1283291254 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't get the #esoteric spirit! < 1283291258 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yeah not having the replay file system logs when booting next time is boring < 1283291271 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or having the new OS confused by already up-and-running hardware < 1283291275 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1283291277 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's what I said, but it wasn't the point here. < 1283291284 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sigh < 1283291286 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, the new OS is DESIGNED to depose a kernel. < 1283291308 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point here is perversity for the sake of it, if I've understood right. < 1283291336 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal hates FREEDOM < 1283291338 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, so it can cleanly umount my ext4 and jfs file systems on top of lvm2 on top of software RAID 1? < 1283291352 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, if your solution doesn't do that then it fails < 1283291365 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did your stdlib-man-page-eating tool do its dirty trick, by the way? < 1283291374 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, directed to? < 1283291404 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, it ignores these holdovers from the tyranny of the previous kernel. < 1283291407 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To alise; I always forget to direct. < 1283291424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't know; it loaded some .s. < 1283291427 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, okay now you are just being absurdly and stupidly silly < 1283291439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: http://colorforthray.info/XcolorForth.tar.gz < 1283291441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Inspect it yourself. < 1283291451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If you manage to get it compiled and aren't on 32-bit, it will eat your manpages.) < 1283291471 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if anything loading a module is even more restricted in format than loading a kernel with kexec! < 1283291482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover, yeah not having the replay file system logs when booting next time is boring ;; shut down file stuff beforehand < 1283291485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umount etc < 1283291507 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll look at it when not on the phone. < 1283291508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: DIE < 1283291513 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what? < 1283291514 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, general idea: module gets ring 0, kills kernel, replaces it with its own code. < 1283291522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: EVIL < 1283291529 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It then brings in a new era of freedom and democracy. < 1283291535 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Vorpal hates FREEDOM < 1283291546 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yes but the module format is even more restricted than kexec < 1283291558 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, so your whole reasoning is completely flawed < 1283291573 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, modules run in ring 0, yes? < 1283291577 0 :sftp_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283291582 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, so does a kexec image < 1283291589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: shut the fuck up < 1283291591 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, but this is so boring! < 1283291591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't want to do kexec < 1283291592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so stop saying it < 1283291600 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea is to do it ESOTERICALLY < 1283291616 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, but with a module you need to hook it up to the linux kernel interface < 1283291621 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it won't load or work < 1283291636 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, with a kexec image you are free from such restraints < 1283291649 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, do you actually understand the idea? < 1283291663 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, thus your argument about freedom is flawed < 1283291667 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1283291673 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I understand the idea but your argument *for* it is flawed < 1283291676 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl29-2-0-cust326.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1283291677 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are quite different things < 1283291683 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl29-2-0-cust326.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com) has left #esoteric ("Leaving") < 1283291683 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover, I understand the idea but your argument *for* it is flawed < 1283291700 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, accidentally closed the tab. < 1283291710 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, repasted the only line sent < 1283291711 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1283291746 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, I tire of this. < 1283291755 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We aren't using kexec. End of. < 1283291773 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, okay. Your argument for not doing so is still flawed < 1283291778 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides the module thing is old < 1283291783 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seen it implemented once before < 1283291790 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was as a hack against 2.4 kerne < 1283291791 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kernel* < 1283291794 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which lacked kexec < 1283291799 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283291805 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, so what you are now doing is fairly boring < 1283291860 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, besides your request for hypothetical software timed out today. < 1283291881 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : My plan would basically be: 1. Write a Forth base in assembly. 2. Write the rest of the Forth in Forth. 3. Write drivers. 4. Write an interface. <-- That is less of dumbness. Actually my idea was both stupider and cooler than what I said. It was kind of "want to write my own OS" plus "Oh, I already have, I just never finished it", and such a collision seems to have sparked... ideas. < 1283291884 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, too late now < 1283291901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: our argument is WE DON'T WANT TO use kexec < 1283291910 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh funt, what are we talking about now. < 1283291918 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that is however no reason < 1283291926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed it is. < 1283291933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we don't need you telling us so because it's fucking obvious. < 1283291937 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and your hack has been done before < 1283291938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing done in this channel has much of a reason. < 1283291940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deal. < 1283291942 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so ol < 1283291943 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :old* < 1283291958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I like how you conspicuously forgot to tell us that before. < 1283291960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1283291993 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway your hypothetical request for hypothetical software timed out today due to lack of hypothetical initiating of the hypothetical file transfer < 1283292004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just get it off torrents. < 1283292006 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg there is YouTube of LoseThos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i0pMO697Zk and TERRIBLE MUSIC < 1283292007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have told me three times already. < 1283292023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: God generated it < 1283292024 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1283292025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You evil person < 1283292041 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS WHY YOU FEAR GOD < 1283292054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This thing is actually a complex piece with multiple time signatures and tempos < 1283292056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just can't tell. < 1283292067 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I CAN"T HEAR THE MUSIC FOR ALL THE BEEPING < 1283292077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's experimental. < 1283292081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL @ the sad face < 1283292083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just appeared < 1283292086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow < 1283292087 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rendered with a human hand on a violin, I admit, it could be... something. < 1283292088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is he typing lyrics < 1283292088 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why do you want to load LoseThos like that btw? < 1283292091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just typing about sins < 1283292102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's lyrics. Wow. < 1283292107 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But as it stands, uh, God has no rhythm. < 1283292114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Uhh, it was just an example of an OS that is compatible with no standard. < 1283292122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Read the lyrics < 1283292123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Top window < 1283292124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's amazing < 1283292137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That may just be my favourite video ever. < 1283292157 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I CAN"T HEAR THE MUSIC FOR ALL THE BEEPING <-- cpressey++ < 1283292197 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Rendered with a human hand on a violin, I admit, it could be... something. <-- doubt even that would salvage it... It seems to lack a proper melody < 1283292255 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This may be a fizzie question, or rather trivial for fizzie maybe, but: In unreal mode, I can still change CS, right? And loading a value into CS is effectively a jump? < 1283292301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the Tome of all Knowledge. < 1283292325 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, btw that youtube thingy.... Why use that OS for that song < 1283292374 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it would be trivial to generate it under most other OSes that support the pc speaker (which seems to be what was used) < 1283292428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because he is LoseThos... < 1283292430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duh < 1283292436 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Because that OS is AWESOME. < 1283292436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, it's the only OS which can connect to God < 1283292445 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, from my understanding of the NASM manual, changing CS directly is only easily possible through black magic on the 8086. < 1283292448 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, so he is a OS coding religious nutjob < 1283292451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Why would LoseThos use LoseThos for X?" "Uhhh, I dunno lol" < 1283292456 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, the best kind! < 1283292459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: He's a nutjob even for the religious. < 1283292488 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well I suspected he was a nutjob for each half of that independently... < 1283292508 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Sure you're not thinking of IP? < 1283292518 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, no, CS. < 1283292539 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the detailed appendix to the NASM manual has been removed. < 1283292542 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it does take a bit of skill to code any OS. So... a somewhat smart (in at least one area) nutjob < 1283292596 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well I know I've loaded *from* CS. OK, I realize, not at all the same thing. < 1283292611 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Main: mov ax, cs ; find DATA segment < 1283292615 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, he's obviously intelligent. He's also fucking nuts. < 1283292628 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I'm pretty sure mov cs doesn't work, but pop cs worked on the 8086. < 1283292641 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed. I'm more used to nutjobs like that also being fairly stupid < 1283292653 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has never done so on any subsequent processor, though. < 1283292655 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, or at least acting fairly stupid in all areas < 1283292684 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Hm. How do you execute code in another segment, then? < 1283292711 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, jmp and its friends. < 1283292743 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, a far jump will update CS too? OK, that actually... makes sense. < 1283292765 0 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1283292794 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call far is more common, obviously. < 1283292809 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You don't run into this when everything you write you try to fit into 512 bytes.) < 1283292909 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was thinking about "writing my own OS", thinking now about extending BefOS instead. Well, sort of. < 1283292953 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1283292969 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each of the Befunge-93 instructions can be implemented in less than 256 bytes of 80[2?]86 code -- surely. < 1283293057 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, in each 2K page you can implement 4 instructions (in inline machine code), and the whole thing fits in one 64K segment. The kernel (fetch-execute loop) runs in another segment and does far calls into these pages. < 1283293060 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it depends. < 1283293066 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sooo efficient!) < 1283293153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BefOS is rubbish :| < 1283293179 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Thus explaining the presence of a desire to make it ... not rubbish. < 1283293189 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To make it merely naff. < 1283293196 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it were. < 1283293196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'd say a Befunge-93 instruction would be more like 50 bytes, not 256. < 1283293218 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a bit late, but yes, I think you keep an unreal-mode DS even if you change CS. (Segment register changes were expensive, though, IIRC.) < 1283293263 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I guess 128 bytes per inst would still be plenty, and would let the interpreter be in the same segment. < 1283293293 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If some inst really does need more, it can jump to some "spare" slot at the end. < 1283293302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Really? The instructions are just things like +, /, p, g, ... < 1283293308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't imagine any of them being more than a few bytes, actually. < 1283293316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from bounds checking, which would be minimal. < 1283293320 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The IO is nontrivial. < 1283293356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jump elsewhere for it? < 1283293364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO is slow anyway, after all. < 1283293402 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: They're not complex. But the thing is, here... you could modify them. Install some machine code in the slot for Z or chr(20), and then it's an instruction. < 1283293438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Ah. < 1283293464 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, not at all sure this would be befunge anymore. < 1283293480 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, it's a place to start. < 1283293586 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm I can't actually think of any other *intelligent* religious nutjob in modern times < 1283293686 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Was thinking about "writing my own OS", thinking now about extending BefOS instead. Well, sort of. <-- bef as in befunge? < 1283293696 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, is there any link to that? < 1283293704 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: NO. NO LINKS. < 1283293707 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1283293715 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but is it bef as in befunge? < 1283293731 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, if so it sounds awesome < 1283293733 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Perhaps you should keep reading the log? < 1283293747 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh excellent idea < 1283293795 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's not an idea. I mean, it's been done. By me. And it sucks. Because it was basically just an extended experiment in baremetal assembly coding on my part. < 1283293810 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ah < 1283293824 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I meant reading the log was an excellent idea < 1283293842 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, then, it's not awesome. < 1283293904 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and befOS sounds awesome too < 1283293929 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant BefOS is not awesome. < 1283293933 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, why do it in real mode < 1283293948 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you wouldn't have the CS problem if you just went into protected mdoe < 1283293952 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mode* < 1283293970 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because unreal mode is AWESOME. < 1283293980 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Etc. < 1283293982 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how so? I don't remember the details for i < 1283293986 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it* < 1283293999 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gaa, the misunderstandings! I somehow thought that this Xcolorforth actually did the trick of kernel hijinks; but it doesn't, it just puts the code into the process' memory space, and emulates a framebuffer with SDL. I mean, that's what is sensible, I just had it somehow confabulated it with the bootloader discussion. < 1283294090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes; if you're on 32-bit, it /should/ work. < 1283294097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I have no idea what the fuck happens to Linux afterwards. < 1283294110 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There appears to be a befos.com. "Admin Organization: BefOS". Should I be frightened? < 1283294138 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You flip to protected mode, set DS selectors so that you have a flat 32-bit memory, then go back to real mode. As long as you don't touch the DS, the limits won't be reset, and you have the unreal mode. < 1283294184 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mhm < 1283294190 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, zzo38's OS uses unreal mode. Just more evidence that it is AWESOME. < 1283294191 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and why was that useful? < 1283294201 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, zzo made an OS? < 1283294203 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when? < 1283294219 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't think anything happens to Linux afterwards. I mean, it's a normal process that does video and keyboard stuff with SDL, and runs code inside its own address space; nothing abnormal about that. < 1283294220 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: You should ask me more questions like that. < 1283294231 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, mhm < 1283294234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ColorForth does rather more than run code inside its own address space, last I checked. < 1283294239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as direct hardware access. < 1283294251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*colorForth < 1283294267 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, Xcolorforth certainly won't do direct hardware access. It's not even located at 0. < 1283294279 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if Unreal Tournament ran in unreal mode.
< 1283294285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I thought color.s does. < 1283294289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it has to be run as root otherwise nothing happens. < 1283294291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all I know. < 1283294297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you run it as root, [boom] < 1283294308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Unreal is more likely to, being older. :P < 1283294348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, according to README it at least behaves perfectly responsibly. I haven't really looked closely; maybe I'll take a peek tomorrow. < 1283294422 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what exactly makes unreal mode better than protected mode? < 1283294507 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Flat (non-segmented) access to the 32-bit address space. < 1283294524 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, right, protected mode has that too < 1283294524 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To clarify: < 1283294542 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I completely misremember < 1283294544 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1283294551 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is what makes it more desirable to me. Not better. < 1283294554 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can set up the segments so that they essentially don't matter < 1283294559 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be equally valid to say that I like the name. < 1283294562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do what LoseThos does! Set up paging to map directly to memory! HOORAY < 1283294565 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ah < 1283294710 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It was used by many computer games in the 1990 to 1995 time frame, since it allowed programmers to use more memory than in real mode, which is restricted to 1 MB (640 KB usable on IBM PC-compatible machines), but still access the DOS operating system, which doesn't work in protected mode." < 1283294714 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: One tangible benefit is that in unreal mode, you can still (with some care) keep calling DOS services for filesystem/IO/what... < 1283294729 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah! Stop ruining my comments! < 1283294736 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry fizzie :) < 1283294745 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I'd be running this code under DOS or anything mind you... < 1283294749 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1283294781 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why can't you do the same thing as whatever vm86 does for calling DOS services? < 1283294862 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1283294868 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't it go to the virtual-8086 mode? < 1283294875 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes < 1283294881 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is that not enough? < 1283294906 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm... what does stuff like djgpp (sp?) do? < 1283294910 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It involves basically switching to real mode and back every time you need something from DOS. < 1283294921 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it somehow needs to access the DOS fs < 1283294961 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1283294966 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does DPMI, and the DPMI implementation involves a lot of that mode-switching, I believe. < 1283295076 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Real protected mode with dos4gw and other "dos extenders" did end up being whap people did; I think unreal mode was used more before DPMI implementations were available. < 1283295135 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a lot more complicated to call DOS that way. Probably also slower. (But then again, the DOS routines are bound to be slow too.) < 1283295171 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DJGPP in particular uses CWSDPMI, IIRC. < 1283295515 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1283295526 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, couldn't it implement it's own FAT driver? < 1283295548 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, even my camera implements fat32, and back then you only had to do fat12 and fat16 < 1283295564 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And IDE drivers, too? You can't call into BIOS from protected mode either. < 1283295589 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah... < 1283295620 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, no, it couldn't implement it's own FAT driver, because DOS would be very confused if the "mounted" disk would magically have its blocks changed. < 1283295622 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, now that's an actual reason. I do make lots of BIOS calls. < 1283295640 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*reason to not use protected mode in BefOS or whatever it is.) < 1283295781 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I recently saw a quite mad DSP (forgot brand and model) where CHAR_BIT was 128. That seems quite large even for a DSP to me < 1283295801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're feeling lucky (or just terminally brave), you might even manage to get some "write a big block into ds:di" interrupt services to directly write to non-low memory, if you just load full esi with a wide address (or does that always need some prefix bytes in real mode?); with the mode-flipping, you'd have to read into buffer, then copy from there to high memory. < 1283295819 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1283295918 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1283295919 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, also a reason: I tried playing around with the EMS and XMS interfaces (BIOS interrupts) and found they sucked. < 1283295935 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did those emm386 and himem.sys things of DOS work? < 1283295952 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't there one doing a window into higher memory? < 1283295957 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TI C64x has a 256-bit wide memory bus for code; it reads and executes in packets of eight instructions. But the data memory is word-addressable with 16-bit words, so I would guess it defines CHAR_BIT to either 16 or 8 (faked&. < 1283295984 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And don't go to extended/expanded memory things; that way lies madness. < 1283296000 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, just wondering how it worked < 1283296022 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the window into higher memory stuff sounds like it would need an MMU < 1283296032 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not available in real mode afaik < 1283296035 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EMS in particular was intended originally for hardware memory extensions that aren't in the usual memory bus. < 1283296049 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah interesting < 1283296053 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't need a MMU, it just involves a lot of copying. :p < 1283296074 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(On a real hardware EMS implementation, it doesn't copy so much.) < 1283296080 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ouch < 1283296095 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how can it access the higher memory to copy from/to it? < 1283296103 0 :Vorpal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes into protected mode every now and then? < 1283296170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it would have to, when it's emulated using regular processor-addressible memory. < 1283296218 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you just can't get more than 20 address bits out of the x86's addressing lines without skipping to protected mode, I would think. < 1283296321 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XMS is just calling HIMEM.SYS's routines via an interrupt; it would then copy bytes in-between low memory used by the app, and high memory. < 1283296381 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While EMS involves EMM386 faking a "expanded memory" hardware thing, on a 386 or better. < 1283296691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the EMS hardware would map memory pages somewhere in the 640k .. 1M range, I think that would involve some duplicate copying; first the app would copy from <640k to there, and then EMM386 would copy to high memory to fake memory-page swapping. Unless that latter part could be faked with the paging hardware, but I'm not sure if that's a reasonable approach. I do recall vague "EMS is SO SLOW" complaints. < 1283296748 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sshc < 1283296895 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a protected-mode OS which runs DOS and DOS apps in the virtual-8086 mode, it would of course be faster, since the paging system could be used to do the, um, paging. < 1283296910 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As fascinating as the bizarro-city x86 is, I think I really need sleep now. < 1283296930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1283297095 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1283298259 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1283298345 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"SyntaxError: invalid syntax" < 1283298358 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you, CPython. < 1283298434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAHHHH DJANGO < 1283298488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: XD < 1283298492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SyntaxError: error in your syntax < 1283298679 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1283299072 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1283299072 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu